House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 2 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: August 29, 2022

Chris Ryan is joined by Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson to give their immediate thoughts and reactions to the intriguing and dragon-filled second episode of 'House of the Dragon'. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Bison Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martins, a Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at Trialby Content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. With adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me today.

As always, it's Joanna Robinson and her pal the crab feeder, Mallory Rubin. What's up? Oh, my God. You know I love steamed crabs, Chris. I was keeping my eyes peeled for some old base seasoning. Didn't see any, though. That guy seems like he's a great match for you, Mal. First of all, amazing nickname, Baltimore-centric nickname.

Also, great at Carpentry. So handy around the house. we're going to get into a bunch of crab feeder stuff. This is episode two of Talk the Thrones for episode two of House of the Dragon. This one, Joanna, was called The Rogue Prince, a catchy title. But I was trying to decide how we should start and what would be the big takeaway from this episode. And I thought a fun way of doing that would be to rename this episode using the naming convention of the popular American sitcom friends, which many people may be familiar with, the one with, the one where.

the one when, if you were renaming this House of the Dragon as the one friend style, what would you call it, Joe? You mean like the one where Ross goes to the tanning booth? No, the one I would call it the one with the low winter sun. Oh, yeah. Maybe. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Poetic. That bridge sequence, like, there's a lot that goes on in this episode, but the way that that bridge sequence really underlines the advantage that the show has of adapting such a, like, slim text because that whole caper with Damon stealing a dragon egg is literally, like, three sentences, and none of it has to do with, like, Otto or Cyrax or Reneura or any of those people going to Dragonstone. It's just like Dragon took an egg, Vesaris was pissed, Dragon gave, uh, Damon, sorry, let me say it again, Damon took an egg, Vassaris is pissed, Damon gave it back, but was unhappy

to do so at the end. And instead, House of the Dragon has concocted this. like one of the most beautiful things we've ever seen on a throne show in this bridge sequence with two massive dragons. This one got the blood flowing, right, Mallory? Like that bridge sequence really like, it's like, here we go. Okay. This is where the money went.

Stunning. Absolutely stunning. Love to see a dragon crest through the fog, like a submarine emerging through the tide. Beautiful. I'm torn on whether I would call this the one with the maggots and the foot gnawing crab. or the one where we were forever scarred by hearing the exchange, she is 12, she will mature. That's awesome.

I think I already made the joke to Andy about we could have just called this how I met your father. But yeah, I mean, you could say this is the one with the second sons. This is the one with the bridge. There's lots of different ones. Why don't I recap this episode? We try to be servicing here. And of the three of us, I think I have the,

the firmest grip on Game of Thrones lore, character name pronunciations, and just also, like, I kind of understand the timeline. Like, I am sort of like, I can see it all happening. And all the names and all the different dragons and how they look different from each other. You guys can't see them in my background,

but they're just literally, like, all over my wall. All right, so this is notably, episode two, the Rogue Prince takes place six months after the first episode. Now I want to talk about that in a bit, but the crab feeder continues to raid. Damon has moved to Dragonstone

to set up shop and start a family and tawn his brother. And Renera is still figuring out what it means to be an heir while Viseris is looking for a bride to maybe give him some more options in the air department. When the small council finds out

that Damon has stolen a dragon's egg for his child to be, Viseras sends Otto to get it back after initially volunteering to go do it himself. And on that bridge, as we have just referenced, words are exchanged,

And then Reneer shows up on the back of a dragon, has another ambiguously charged talk with Damon and gets the egg back. We get a glimpse into the relationship between Damon and Masseria. Is that right? Am I saying that right? Miseria. Masaria. Misari? That's why I'm open to revising my steadfast pronunciations, you know? Like, Masaria?

I'm just delighted to see that you're sticking with a dragon instead of making any effort to identify which dragon. It's just not going to happen. 44. You know what I mean? Like, you just see, it's just, when those dragons start having personalities, and I can be like, it's the funny one. Braxis or whatever. Caraxis, the one with all the jokes.

Yeah. These guys, so far they're offering a lot. Classic zinger throwers, the dragons. Yeah, they love to laugh. They love levity. Continue. We get a glimpse into the relationship between Damon and Masaria. Vesaris gets a lot of advice about whether he should marry Corlis and Renice's daughter or not, with

some counsel from both. and Lionel Strong, who I want to touch on later. He goes with the most combustible option and announces he's going to marry Allison Hightower, pissing off Corliss and his own daughter in the process. This episode ends with an alliance between Corlis and Damon, and then we finally get a look at the crab feeder who basically looks like leather face

and likes to nail people to things on beaches, which I guess is a nice place to die if you got to go. You got to go somewhere. Maybe not the best way. With an ocean front view? Yeah. You know, those waves lapping at your feet? Look, they don't make a big deal about it,

but I thought it was interesting that this episode did take place half a year after the first one that we saw. So, Mallory, I'm going to start with you. I feel like time is going to be something we need to keep an eye on here, right? Like, obviously this show, we know that there is basically

older versions of these cast members waiting in the wings, possibly, obviously for this season, for some people. What did you make of like, Oh yeah, six months later as we got right into the second episode. So I had a few different responses to the time jumping in this episode. Our very first realization that half a year has passed comes when Sir Ryan Redwine, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is unceremoniously disposed of.

We learned that he has perished between episodes and six months have passed. Is he the first episode? He was, yes. Oh, he was. Just like randomly in the background, though. Like that, not much to do. Bearded gentleman in his Kingsguard armor, etc. And it was a funny thing because offline, you know, between pods, Joe and I had been talking about.

Oh, wait, they haven't clarified. Is Sir Riam? Lord Commander, is Sir Harold? Lord Commander yet. Oh, my God. What if we get this wrong on the box? You started your Sir Ryan blog? Yeah.

Guess what? No. Our guy who in the canon previously enjoyed a very, very, very brief stint as the hand and is a present character, just gone. So I had a little bit of a timeline, time jumping jittery response to that where at first I wondered how disorienting it was going to be to acclimate inside of each episode. Because a lot of time passes between, but then the focus of this episode itself is very, very, very concentrated. ultimately, though, I think that given how much time we have to cover that this show has to cover in the first season here, you know, we know the cast is aging up to the older, the older set of actors midway through the season that was widely reported and announced in the run-up to the

season. We've seen the older characters in the trailer. We are going to have to move very quickly through time. And so what that does, I think, is reinforce, much like in fire and blood, where you'll go across a number of pages over decades of time, that what you are actually seeing inside of the episode in question is consequential. The things that they are choosing to show us matter. These are the fulcrums. These are the pivot points in these character arcs, in these relationships, in these dynamics.

How many years will pass or months will pass between the next set of episodes? I have no idea. But what I do feel confident about after this episode is that whatever we see in episode three will be just as consequential as what we saw here. There's not going to be a lot of downtime. We just have too much time to move through in season one. I don't know. I miss our sojourns to flea bottom, you know, just like kind of wandering around a little

bit. Like there's part of me that sort of wants us to, we got a showback. Let's take it a little slow. I understand, though, they need to have some pretty, some pretty consequential stuff happening. Like, Joe, I mean, do you think that the speed with which it's moving, I don't want to say like, betrays a

disinterest in the era in which it starts. But what do you think, what do you make of the, of the quick pace that we're moving at? I think it's really interesting.

We get, I think it's one or two mentions about the fact that it's been six months in this episode, but we also get, as Mal pointed out, those, a couple mentions

of like, the fact that so much this episode takes place over the course of one day, but Sarah's will say, like, earlier this morning, like, so many things happen in this one,

it's not just one day, but also, as I was telling Mal off pod, I think it's really weird that Alicent and Reneira wear the same dress the whole episode. Reneiras are very similar. There's a lot of, like, cream and beige coloring. Allison appears literally the same. Yeah, and we know that Alton High Tower doesn't have one dress.

So I didn't know if that was like an editing thing so that they could like chop it around however they wanted to and it and like put the timeline over they wanted. She's in the same dress or what was going on there. But the concentrated timeline is so interesting to me. But I know that there was a version of the show at one point where all. all of this stuff before we get the actors, older actors, who are going to be playing Alicent and Reneer, for example, was going to be prologue, was not going, like, you know,

once upon a time there was an idea to start with adult Alicent and adult Reneira and just say, remember when this happened somehow in the dialogue. So I do think that at a certain point, when we hop to those new actors, all of this will feel somewhat like prologue, but not in a sense that it will feel wasted. I think all of this groundwork that they're laying here, all these relationships that they're digging into, the fact that this episode ends with a betrayal of sorts

from Allison to Rainer after we also get this lovely scene where they're in the Sep together and they seem impossibly close. I think it's important for us to see that stuff. And so that's why it's here. But I do think eventually all of this, you know, the youth of these girls will seem like a lead up to something else. Yeah. And I think that what we're witnessing are probably like you're saying, these are things that if they had started with the adult versions of these people, there would be lots of references to like, well, you remember when my dad decided to choose you without you telling me.

That was like a huge schism in our relationship, by the way. That could have wrapped up these two episodes, but we wouldn't get the bridge. we wouldn't get a lot of the stuff that we have that's building up these characters. I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea, you know, and I think it kind of had echoes in the first episode, but I was struck when Vesaris was walking Allison through his sort of replica village

or replica that he has in his room there. Yeah, his leg is set. Yeah, and he has like a bit, Malia has like some longing for an Eric, a bygone era, right? And so even though that this is a prequel to the Game of Thrones that most TV watchers know,

that even characters within this prequel are nostalgic for a time that's gone. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that time that Vesaris is talking about. Well, I would say even just more broadly that I think Viseras is being presented to us as a character who is very much,

he's reluctant to go to war with other people and other places, reluctant to go to war with the triarchy and the stepstones, states many times in this episode that it is his job as king to maintain the peace and avoid the war. But he is a character

who is deeply at war with himself. And so while I think you're right to identify that he has this nostalgia for a bygone era, I don't think we should lose sight of what we hear him say in episode one in that great closing stretch with Renera,

where he says the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. there are power men should never have trifled with one that brought Valeria. It's doom. If we don't mind our own histories, it will do the same to us. And so I think that these aspects of longing, and I think he is also a character, especially in this episode, defined by his longing and his loneliness.

I think one of the real heartbreaking moments of the episode was on that, boy, that walk with Lena, Valerion. What a stretch of the episode that was where he says that even dragons can be lonely. and he is, of course, not only speaking about dear Vagar, but about himself in that moment. And so he is thinking back and studying old Valeria, the might of the freehold, the magic and power of the dragon lords,

but he also, both because of House Targaryen's role as the lone dragon riding family to escape the doom of Valeria, and also now he is the one entrusted with Agon's prophecy, with the dream, with the weight of that burden. Can I stop you right there, just really quick because I think that for listeners

who don't know the deeper kind of history of this world, like that is kind of come up a couple of times in these episodes where there was this place that was full of families that were dragons, right? And then there was this natural disaster that took place, the doom, right?

Which was a volcanic eruption? Like, what are we talking about? Like a Pompeii thing? Yeah, I think that Pompeii is a really handy comp, actually. The 14 flames. And, you know, Joe and I talked about this for a while, on our episode one, House of Our Deep Dive, if anyone wants to hear a much longer run-through of the lore,

but as a very quick snapshot here, there is a lot of mystery still surrounding what actually befell old Valeria. Now, Denise, the dreamer, is the one who had the prophecy of the doom and allowed House Targaryen to escape, and this is part of why House Targaryen put so much stock in dreams and in prophecies,

but all of the other dragon riding families, many of whom were warring with each other for who would have ultimate supremacy. And I think that's another thing that's worth, worth remembering when we look back at Valerian history, is that the Targaryans were like mid-tier. Yeah, mid-linked. We're not talking five-star prospect of old Valerian houses, right? This is like if the Pacers got out of the Eastern Conference, basically, yeah. Exactly. And Chris, I want to return to some basketball and football comps later

where we talk about David Targaryen's throwing form, you know, the spiraling. The dragon egg toss there. But what actually happened with the eruption, the 14 flames? The, was it that the fire mages lost control of their power? There's a really fun theory out there in the fandom and in the world about the faceless men who Game of Thrones fans would be familiar with. We don't have to get too deep into it. It's all just to say we don't actually know the answer. Maybe we will learn it moving forward in the tale, but Viseras is a character who thinks deeply about what went wrong and what it might mean for the future.

We hear that exchange between Alicent and Vesaris in this episode about whether Westeros can be the new Valeria. And he's not a character who is striving to recreate something. He is a character who is fearful of what went wrong. And I think that is enmeshed in a really fascinating way with the burden that he feels to maintain his role. rule and think about how to extend his reign, something that he and other characters are really perseverating over throughout this entire episode. He used to ride Belairean the Black Dread, the most fabled dragon in the history of the story. He never took a dragon again. Why? Did he not want to? Is he afraid? It feels like he's afraid of dragon power, and this is a source of frustration

for Reneura when she's doing her cup air duty in the small council. She's like, you have dragon riders. Send us. We could clean this up. real quick. And that stands in contrast, I think, to on the bridge, Rainira and Damon sort of seeing each other as Dragonriders. They've each brought their WMDs to this conversation. You know what I mean? Where Vesaris is like, I don't want to fuck with that at all. And I think the model village that he has in his chambers of Voleria is one thing. But there's also the more recent history that's hanging over him because Magor the Cruel, who Otto mentioned, last week's episode,

when he's like, Damon would be another Magor the cruel, right? That's the king, only one before Jeharis, only one before the one we met at the very beginning of episode one, which means this is recent history

in Magor the Cruel, tyrannical reign, absolutely bloody and violent, all of this. And I think some of the stuff that Damon does in this episode, specifically the idea of taking a second wife, that was a big thing

that Magor did to tick everyone off. Magor loves to get married. Yeah. So it feels like Damon's just sort of like poking at, you know, he's poking at his brother. With this move specifically is a real Magor move, like proving Otto right in a certain way. And I want us to always be listening to exactly the word choices that Otto uses when he's

talking to Vassaris because the way that he's manipulating the king is so subtle in this episode when he says talking about marriage and he says to be compelled to replace her for duty's sake, you were the king, but I do not envy you. Like, he's not saying, isn't my daughter hot? He doesn't go that route. He goes another, which is, like, using the word duty and just making it sort of an ugly word here in that conversation. Well, other thing I was going to ask, because I can't tell whether the end of episode one,

where he has, we have this reveal to all Game of Thrones fans that this secret about the winter and what the evil might come with it has actually been, like, garter. closely by the Targaryian royalty for generations, if that is informing any of Vassaris's, like, I don't really want to get into like a stepstones war and I don't really want to do this. And like, maybe we can just send a letter and maybe we can just pay people off. And whether it's like, is that, is that going to be something that we see is like, I mean, I don't want to ask this because I know that a lot of this stuff is like, yes, and you will see in, you know, in a year or two of this will happen.

But I'm curious whether or not this new information. is governing any of the behaviors of the character. I think, Chris, this will be welcome news to your ears and many listeners, I'm sure. Anything that has to do with this Agon prophecy, fair game to discuss in full because we knew nothing about this until this first episode. This is just not in the books. So we don't know how fully that is shaping Viseris's thinking, but I think it's a really reasonable read at this point in the story.

It's certainly my read. and I'm anticipating that we will learn more in subsequent episodes about how actively that is driving his decision-making. I think that there's also, there's a, there's a, the macro and the micro at play here already, because there's this vast weight being the guardian of the safety of the world. Also, there is his very personal shame and guilt about what happened with Emma, with his wife. And he does not know how to speak openly. about any of this. I think that if you ask me to describe Viseris, in addition to, you know, the kind nature

that he seems to have, I would say that so far through two episodes, he's a character who's defined by his passivity and by his secret keeping. And I think that those are both stark contrasts to other characters, namely his newly named heir, Renira, his daughter, who is a very active character

and his brother Damon, who is a very active character. But also to Joe's point from a minute ago, a state of existence that makes him vulnerable to manipulation. That passivity, I mean, I thought that one of the lines of the episode came from Corlis, the Seasnake, when he said to Viseris, to elude a storm, you can either sail into it or around it, but you must never await it's coming. Vesaris Targaryen through two episodes is a character defined by waiting for the storm.

And when you wait for the storm, you cannot control how you make your way through it. He's a game manager. He's just, he's checking. He's not. He's not a game manager. He's not? He doesn't know how to manage the game. What do you trust a game manager to do? Not fumble.

Not make mistakes. Keep an eye on the clock. He's not a game manager. It, like, it underlines why they included the great counsel of 101, which they didn't have to at all. That is like the prologue to the prolog. He gets crowned, right? Yeah, where he is chosen over Rainies. That shows us.

that the previous king saw war on the horizon and made an active move to, you know, strongly back someone and head off war at the past. That's a strong move that he made. And you could argue that Viseris does it in naming Reneira his heir, but how much is he going to stand behind her going forward? He's already, he's already lining up some spares here, like fortify the line that you give me options is something he says, I'm not going to replace you, but I need often. is something that he says to Reneer on this episode.

So the naming Reneer in his air thing is the one bit that I kind of felt like suffered with the six-month time jump. So episode one ends with everybody basically swearing fealty to her. And then six months later, she's still serving drinks. And people are pretty actively saying, you need to have more kids just in case this one doesn't work out. You know, like there are multiple people on his counsel who are like, how are we going to get you?

preferably, I mean, definitely preferably, a male error that in case Renier doesn't work out, or let's be honest, probably won't work out. There's like the sort of line here is still guarded. Did you, are we supposed to intuit that like the sort of enthusiasm for the idea of naming Reneira the air joe, like that that got diminished over the last six months? Or is it just like that that was always going to be the case? I don't know that anyone was particularly enthusiastic about it. I think it was more, and something that Reneer says to Allison to the Sept is like, he didn't

choose me, he spurned Damon. So she was sort of the anyone but Damon choice. Okay, now that that's cleaned up, let's move to Plan B. And to the passivity point, that even reinforces that the most active decision as still being highly reactive and responsive. She seems kind of fatalistic. I mean, on the

bridge, she's like, why don't you just kill me? If this is what you, if what you want is to be King, you got to kill me now. And Damon doesn't, you know? I think she knows he won't. I think that was like a baller move on her part. And she's like, this is the, this is, this is what you're, because it's all, to, to quote Otto High Tower, a mummers first, right? Meaning like, this is just theater that Damon is doing to get attention. And she's calling his bluff. Those are not Philadelphia mummers. I'm supposed, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming, right? We're not talking about. Mummer's being meeting like a theater troupe And it's like that's that's It's you know

It's just it's just nonsense that Damon is doing to get attention And she calls him out for it essentially She's like are you really going to kill me right now? Yeah You know he's like obviously you know With with no words because he's Matt Smith Obviously not. There you go

It's such a great scene Before we get to that Because I do want to break that down a little bit more closely I wanted to ask about the Current medical state of our King, Vassaris. So in the first episode, it's got a little Nick from sitting in the Iron

throne that's been bothering him. They're doing some really creative stuff with Puss in that episode. In this episode, if you thought maybe six months and time heals all wounds, it in fact doesn't. It just makes them much,

much worse. And now Vesaris is getting maggots eating his flesh to I guess stop the infection. from spreading. So, Mal, does that also

kind of kick things into high gear with we really need an air here because this guy is slowly dying in front of us? Or is that

just like a different era of medical sciences in Westeros and that's just how they treated skin problems? Well, boy, I have so many

things I want to say in response that I think there's so many interesting threads to consider here already. I mean,

we know that even a couple centuries later, Think of our guy, Kai Byrne, treating the, treating the Jamie's rotting flesh after his hand was severed from his arm. It's like, you know what we could turn to here? The highly advanced science of boiled wine. Yes. So at the end of the day, you got to work with what you have here in Westros.

Not a lot of mose surgery going on back then, I guess. Not a lot of skin grafting. Not a lot of plastic surgery. Okay. So they want, you know, the maggots to eat away the dead flesh, work with what you can. I think that Otto, just as in episode one, Otto seemed incredibly focused. Sure, let's be charitable and say that he cares about his king and good friend Viseras the first dark area.

It's health and well-being. Okay. He seems primarily focused on nobody finding out about this because that, and that connects to this larger through line of this episode as well, this idea of the crown. and the reign and House Targaryen being in this vulnerable state where other people, other factions might sense this weakness and this opening and try to tear down the rule. So anything that heightens the sense across the realm or beyond the realm,

the triarchy, ESOS anywhere, of weakness is something to fear. Now, we hear this many times in the episode, Corliss voices this when he's making. his campaign to go deal with the triarchy and the stepstones. Reneas and Corliss just say this directly to Viseras' face when they meet out in the gardens, which was a great scene. Otto knows that a king who is being harmed by the throne on which he sits and cannot heal is not a king who people are going to believe in for long.

This is a real risk for them. Yeah, he's not a guy not a guy you'd want to have a beer with, you know? Otto or Vassaris? Vassaris, it's like, it's just like he's not, he's not going to like play, like, if you try to get like people behind this guy and he's like, it actually hurts me to sit, it's going to be a problem.

You know, I wouldn't say bar stools and seats are typically, typically the most comfortable. But Chris, I think also, like, if you think about the symbolism of the broken dragon elsewhere in this episode, the stone that fell and fractured from this vast village. And the way that Viseras is so captivated by holding its repaired form in his hand,

I thought that was fascinating in a lot of different, in a lot of different respects. He certainly seems genuinely very moved and touched by this gesture on Allison's part and, like, frankly, could barely choke out a sentence without sounding like he's on the verge of tears. This was a real... High-key dork.

Yeah. Vesarist sounds just like me on a podcast, Can't get out of line without sounding like he's about to break down in tears. I felt very tenderly toward him in those moments. But it also just felt like he was looking down at himself and at his own line. And we hear him say to Reneira elsewhere in the episode, you know, too easily ended, this idea of the vulnerable line. Now, he is a part of that in his own mind.

But so is the vast, sprawling set of scenarios for his own children. He says he does not intend to replace Rennira as air. if he has other children, Chris, to get back to what you were asking about earlier. But that doesn't stop a character like Renice from saying to Renira in front of one of the many dragon fucking people

orgy tapestries populating the Red Keep at this point in Targaryen history. Can't wait for them to start selling those as official merch. I'll be buying a poster for my home immediately. Are you talking about the scene where Riversares is walking with her daughter?

Yeah. Yeah. I love how like it's just like, oh, hey, were you just also watching the King talk to this 12 years? So many moments where Renice is watching for a balcony. She's also doing it during the Kingsguard interviews. It made me think of all the shots of Littlefinger leading against the wall at Winterfowl in season 7 where every time you cut him, he's observing something consequential. But she says to Reneira, men would sooner put the realm to the torch than see a woman ascend the iron throne and your father is no fool. we have Viseras reinforcing to Reneira. He doesn't want them to become estranged. He intends to maintain her as air.

And yet, the reality all around of the preference of even many of the people who did pledge fealty at the end of episode one, there's no true stability ever. And a nimble ruler has to acknowledge that. That gets back to that corallus stormline. You always have to anticipate how somebody else is going to try to take you down. Gotcha. Can I circle back to maggots for a second? Please do.

Always. Always want to circle back to maggots. Can I introduce, and I do not think this is a spoiler because it is a fun long-term, long-gestediting book reader theory that has no answer one way or another in the books. I think those are fair game. The problem I'm having is like how do you write, how do you spell this person's name? So I Google it. And then it's like, and he died. Don't do it.

Everyone in this story is going to die. No, I know. But it's how they died. There's something called the Grand Maester. theory that I absolutely love. And it is this really fun book reader conspiracy theory about how the maisters from Old Town, which is where House Honeytower is from, by the way, because there's a mace, like a chicken in every pot and a maister in every castle, they actually have tremendous power throughout

the realm to work from behind the scenes to orchestrate the flow of history. And there is especially, there's great. quote in a Song of Ice and Fire where this character, Lady Dustin, calls them gray rats, scurry everywhere, whispering in the ears of their masters. I love that. And then also in A Song of Ice and Fire, when Samuel Tarley goes to the Citadel, which he did in the show as well, he meets a character who's Marwin the Mage who says, who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around, gallant dragon slayers arm with swords, the world the citadel is

building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. So there's this great theory that the maesters are working behind the scenes to end House Targaryen and end the dragons. That is badass. So this is the Maester Illuminati theory. Yes, exactly. I like this.

The Carlisle group. And there's like one arm of the theory that they were working in consort with House High Tower, but I think it's really interesting in that scene with the aforementioned maggots that Otto is working the alicent agenda, and Macer Melos seems to be on team, let's make House Valerian happy, unless he's doing like a deep bench, you know, manipulation or just acting the partisan like that. It doesn't seem like House Hightower and the Masons are working together. I don't know if the Grand Mastor Theory, the Macer theory is real, but I love it.

I love it. Mello's coming in with a bowl of maggots and then what does it matter, your grace, about the idea of Rainer maybe being unhappy her mother has passed her father must propagate the royal line just full on

who gives a shit her mom died her dad's got a fuck mellos what a showing for mellos great bedside manner this episode is brought to you

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This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return, and this time they're taking on Texas. as Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs.

Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Joe, you mentioned Valerian. I wanted to ask a little bit about what, for me,

was a very dense data dump when Corlis comes into the small council. And, you know, I was like, slow down. Start from the beginning. Talk to me like I'm a baby. Like, what are we doing here? There's a lot of places, people, things being mentioned. He's very upset.

He's lost some ships. He feels like they're slow rolling him in terms of the response. We've basically got a situation where what? Like, I heard free cities. I heard stepstones. this is for either of you. I mean, I think after several viewings, I have, like, a decent idea

of what's happening here, but this sort of piracy that's going on, I guess, what does that conflict kind of say about this era? Is there a lot of uprisings? Are, is there more than other eras and does it speak to this being,

like, a moment of instability in the realm? Malarabin, you're a famous Free Cities fan. Do you want to talk about what's going on in the Free Cities at this time? Okay, so I'll start with the, the very last thing that you asked there, Chris, before diving into the triarchy

and your guy, the crab feeder a bit more to the vulnerability? Can I ask you just actually one thing really quickly is geographically? How far away from King's Landing is this happening? Like, are we talking about like, you can look out the window and see this happening or this is far away and it's like the way it was. You're talking about the stepstones?

Yeah, because I'm wondering whether it's like the same way stuff in the north seem to be happening on another planet to the Lannisters. They were like, oh, fuck the north. You know what I mean? Yeah, good, good question. So while acknowledging that this is a podcast and people can't see what I'm doing with my hands or visualize this, I'll attempt to sketch out quickly a little respective geography here. So you just start with Kings Landing.

Let's start with that as kind of a central point. Head out east into the narrow sea from Kings Landing and you hit Driftmark and then Dragonstone. So that's one bit of geography that's worth keeping in mind is that. that drift mark, the seat of House Valerian, and Dragonstone. Of course, the seat of the air to House Targaryen, which is my Damon setting up shop there when Renera has been named Princess of Dragonstone is such a grave affront.

Gotcha. Go down, head south in the narrow sea. You will hit the stepstones, which is basically a chain of islands. It's east of Dorn. It's in the southern narrow sea, and it is this pirate haven. but it's a really, because of its position,

it is a really consequential trade route. And we hear Corliss voice this in episode one about the threat of beggaring the ports, but this is a direct threat to Coralus and House Valerian because, as we know, their strength comes from the sea, from trade, and not just their strength in a military sense, but their wealth. And we've heard a lot about the wealth of House Valerian.

So anything that puts that at risk needs to be accounted for. But this is also a consequential trade route for numerous other cities and families. It would be a consequential location on that. It would be incredibly sick if Ryan Condal was like, for the next five episodes, we're doing supply chain issues in Westrose

because of the shipping lanes. Let's go to Spice Town. What is Aragorn's tax policy in one of the trade routes? Joanna, I was literally just going to say that. I was going to say exactly those words. This is like why George Arborne made the story. What if there's a sudden, like, there's a shortage of maggots because of these shipping

lanes and we thought about like. Regrettably, you could never run out of Vegas. Your king is literally going to fall apart. So, yeah. Mallory, I'm sorry for interrupting. Go ahead. No, no, no. It's a good question. So, okay, to your last point about vulnerability, we hear this again, as I mentioned earlier, from a lot of different characters. So this is a sensitive,

delicate moment. Well, we open this television show, House of the Dragon, by in the prologue at the Great Council, hearing about how this is the apex of power for House Targary. Now, we're, you know, we've moved a decade into the future, but I still think that's a really important shift to be paying attention to, that at the height you begin to risk what, of course, the fall. So I found myself thinking back to our introduction to Taiwan Lanister in Little Television Program calling Game of Thrones

when he is given that classic dad pep talk to Chris Ryan's favorite incest participant, favorite incest participant for now, Jamie Lanister. You're going to be a lot of competition for that crowd. And J.B. is challenging what he's hearing and saying, so the lion does concern himself with the opinion of the sheep. And Thailand cuts him off to say, that's not an opinion. It's a fact. If another house can seize one of our own and hold him captive with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared. This is just a reality of rule and power and strength in Westeros. If other houses or factions can be. attack you in any way with impunity and you do nothing about it, then other people aren't going to take you seriously for long.

And right now that's happening to Vassaris in multiple respects as we hear. Damon taking Dragonstone is one of them and it is so close to him that it is in some respects, even more damning that he won't do anything about that. But then the stepstones, the triarchy with your guy the crab feeder, this is your boy. That guy is from Baltimore. What if he is our guy, the crab feeder? Football and crab kicks, that's what we do.

What if we just all embrace him? The crab feeder is so hyped that in late August, the Baltimore Orioles are right in the thick of the wild. I really worry about my susceptibility to the crab feeder. Like, if I was alive during this time in this world, I think I would probably like cut the line. You know, I was like, this guy's, coming. Like, I'm going to get on board early. I'm going to be a seed investor in what he's doing.

I believe in it. I believe in the results he's getting. Let's go. Team crab feeder. Into the crab boil. You love a, you love a seafarer. You love a seafood boil out of the beach. This alliance of Mir Lees and Tyroche, it's the kingdom of the three daughters. This is the triarchy represents a... pretty real threat because these are often free cities, the nine free cities of ESOS. This group in particular often would war with each other over the disputed lands and for them to align and for this alliance to become a threat to Westeros and this trade route is a big deal. And that's why at the end, Corlis, part of the appeal that he makes to Damon is a direct

contrast with Viseris. Well, he's too weak to act. this can be how you show your strength. And I love the Joe brought up recent Targaryen history with Magor and other rulers earlier because the king between Agonne the Conqueror, who we of course have heard a lot about and Magor who has been popping up as a reference

is my guy. What is his name? Anus Targaryen. Ais Targaryen. Shout out to Anus. Now and always love my guy, Anus. Here's the thing. A lot of the realm did not love Anus.

Not a big Anus realm. And part of that was because he was considered ineffective. And Magor is a overcorrection. But it's part of why Jay Harris was such a successful ruler. He earned the nickname, the moniker, the conciliator because he showed no reluctance, even in complex situations to act, to work to build alliances. And alliance building through marriage or other methods is a huge, focus in this episode as well. If you're going to succeed, you need to know how to navigate

that aspect, whether it's through war, through marriage, or through any other aspect of life in Westrose. It seems to be like the entire Martin project in a lot of ways is watching these families sort of align with one another, betray one another, marry into one another, take over different seats of power. Joe, Corlis, Corlis is heated in this moment. You know, like he's losing money, but I think he's also taking offense to what it means that he's He sits on the small council and he's just getting got by these pirates. Can you tell me a little bit about who this guy is? He's married into the Targaryen family, but who is this character?

I would be thrilled to do this. And if you have three and a half hours of your life to spare, you can also listen to our deep dive. Minute 92. But I have only been awake for like... That's further than I thought you would have made it. Yeah, it was way further than I thought you would have gone. You've been jet-setting this one. I did think that my...

I thought my iPhone was broken when I saw how long it was. But just in case, someone doesn't have three and a half hours to spare. Let me give you the Reader's digest of some of the deep dive that we did last week on House Valerian. Just to say that as Corley says in this episode, he says the Valerians were no dragon lords. My house had to scratch out our fortune from the sea. So this idea that the Valerians who are from old Valeria, from the Model Village, as we discussed, They came over before the Targaryens. They were here first, but they were not Dragon Rider, so they don't have that built-in majesty or command.

And so Corliss himself built the Valerian fortune by being a seafar, by being, if you want to call him a pirate, he built all this money up together. And something that I think is really important context is that Valerian is now the richest house in all of Westeros. and they only recently eclips the Lannisters, you've heard of them, and the High Towers. So Otto High Towers sitting at the small council, looking at this guy who is like Nouveau-Rish, if you want to call him that, who is coming in here and is now richer and more powerful than him. So it makes entire sense to me that Otto is like, I don't really care about protecting your fortune. Yeah, he's like, we'll top you off with some coin, but like we're not, I'm not going to like make this guy fight a war for you, right? Right. And Corliss is new to the seat of power, has ambitions, is married into the Targaryens. His family has been passed over for the throne already. He is so outraged that his daughter is passed over here because she is on paper, despite being 12 years old, the better match for Vassaris. But there's a small detail that a lot of people latched onto in episode one that I don't think we mentioned, which is that when they're pouring

whine for everyone at the small council, he puts his hand over his glass. And I think it's a really telling in terms of like, I'm new here. I can't fuck around the way that you guys have who have been here for generations. This is serious business. I'm on the small council. Let's do some business. And so I think that's really telling of him. And then also the way that he's bonding with Damon over were both second sons, right? The idea that being the second son in a household means everything goes to the first son. There's a reason that there's a sell sword company in ESSO called the second sons because it's like if you're the second son, you have to make your own fortune. So maybe you go off and be a mercenary or if you're a Corlis Valerian, you build a massive

shipping empire or whatever the case may be. But I think one more just quick detail of this episode that I think is so fascinating is if you go back to Rainira picking Kristen Cole out of the, you know, number of knights who are there to be on Kingsguard, right? Does she pick him because he's battle tested? Maybe. Does she pick him because she likes the way his hair looks? Probably.

But if you look at that assemblage of knights, and Otto sort of mentions this, the other houses that are assembled there are more noble than House Cole. The other knights have bannermen with them. They've got huge plumes on their helms. They've got, like, fancy tunics over their armor. Kristen Kool is standing there by himself with his dinged up armor, no plume.

And this is a huge upward mobility moment for him. him to join the King's Guard. So, like, he, along with Damon and Corliss, are these figures that are sort of, and Otto High Tower is also a second son, who are out there scratching their way up the ladder, which I think is a really interesting theme that this show is interested in. Yeah, can I just follow up on that for a second? So, I mean, first of all, shout out Damon calling Kristen Crispin. Iconic, made me think of Jamie. Rick on a dick on. He's a man after my own heart. Proud Thrones tradition. I think that it is worth remembering

when we consider the risk of a rift with House Valerian and we hear many in this episode, including characters like Otto and Allison who have their own agenda here, Otto's agenda, have to concede the point, have to at least acknowledge out loud

that a match with the Valerians is the logical alliance to make and a smart one for Viceris's reign. House Targaryen and House Valerian have a long history. Not only because they're both Valerian houses, but the Lord of the Tides has been like an ever-present figure on Targary and small councils during the entire time that they've reigned. So look back to Agon, the conqueror, he had a Valerian as as his master of ships during his conquest, Damon Valerian.

Look at the marriages between the houses. Pre-conquest, Valian, Valerian married Arion, Targaryen, and that's how we got the conquerors. That's how we got Aegon, Vesnia, and Rainis. So this is a long tradition. There are other marriages and unions we could cite. I say that to say,

risking that is a big deal. Like, being the ruler who sees that fall apart is a real blight potentially on your rain. Now, that all exists in the context of life in Westeros where nothing is eternal, right? The sea never stays flat and glassy for long. There are always going to be waves

and tides that pull somebody under them. Is this a Mallory Rubin original aphorism or is this in the book? Just love the ocean, just like you and the crab feeder. But the other thing I just wanted to quickly say is that, and Joe, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

And then Steve edit this out of the episode of one. But Corlis Valerian, unless this is a show update, and it might be, because canon changes all the time across the adaptations. And there's a lot we don't know about the characters in fire and blood. We just have certain details. There's a ton to learn. It's not actually a second son. Right. And so I think that that's important to remember because it shows his saviness. When he says to Damon, we are the realm's second son's damon, our worth is not given. It must be made. It is a savvy. savvy tactic to draw a parallel between a character he is attempting to win as an ally to his

cause. He is a tactician and a schemer. And these are always the most fun and compelling characters in this world, the schemers, the ones who have their plot, plots and schemes, schemes and plots, they're the same thing. And to get to watch this unfold, you know, what did we hear Damon say in episode one about Otto, a second son who stands to inherit nothing he doesn't cease for himself? That's true for Damon, too, and Corlis knows that. Well, and I think it's, yeah, it reminds you of Tyrion saying all bastards are cripples and their father. You know, like this idea of like, let me, let me relate to you.

All dwarves are bastards and their father's side. That's the line. Or also like relating cripples, bastards, broken things. We're all on the same level. So Corliss, I'm, I don't know. I could see the show changing it so that it's literal that Clis is a second son. But I like your version better. Yeah, where he's basically.

trying to appeal to him on a more of like a symbolic level rather than a literal one. Let's talk about the bridge. It's been 50 minutes here and I can't believe we haven't gotten to my favorite scene in this show so far, which is... Where the one dragon in the show looks at itself in a mirror? That one? Let's talk about this incredible scene. First of all, like, if you had a critique, if one had a critique, and we talk a little bit about

this on the episode of The Watch going up tonight, where it's like, it's been a very interior show so far. know, we haven't gotten to see a lot of what King's Landing looks like right now and what are different folks doing. A lot of our main characters are kind of bunched together. TV dictates that these people will be split apart. And obviously, Damon has been the first person to step out. And we get to see a little bit more of the world. This was an awe-inspiring. Gregory Tottis directed this episode. This looked incredible. I have a few things I would like to point out that I love from this scene. And these are not questions. So anybody just jump in whenever

you want. Number one, got to say Reese Eiffens. It's just really good at saying the word whore. He's said it twice. I feel bad for who he's talking to, but at the same time, I hope he doesn't stop. Can I just say, let me jump in and say, actually, the word reading of this episode award I would give to Fabian Franco who plays Kristen Cole, he says incursions. Like, he draws it out. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, but he's called Masaria whore twice. So that's chill. Two, the mummers farce bit. I love that just as a Philadelphia and love to see the mummers popping up in Game of Thrones.

Three, I wanted to ask, either one of you jump in for this, Damon stealing the egg. Is he shit posting? Like, because she's not pregnant, so he doesn't need the egg. So what was the goal here? Yeah, and again, that's a difference from the book. But I think that in which she is actually pregnant. But I think that, you know, and this is why Massaria is so pissed, because she's like, you just put a target on my back.

You just made me really vulnerable to assassination all for just to get your brother's attention. Because it really does, you know, he says, where's the king? And I don't lie, you know, because Veseris was going to go there. That was if Ceres's first instinct. I'm on my way to Dragonstone. Can't take a dragon. So I guess I'll go by ship or whatever. But Otto lies to him at Dragonstone.

and he's like, the king could not be bothered. And Harold Westernling gives him a, like, a face. Like, we know that you stepped in to do this. But that's all Damon wanted, I feel like, is maybe if I just sit here for six months, my brother will come notice me on Dragonstone. And that didn't happen. So maybe if I steal this dragon egg, my brother will come notice me.

Mal, do you disagree? No, I'm with you. Yeah. I think he just wants attention. Are there any consequences to being like, I need this dragon egg because my wife is pregnant? And it's like, when she's not pregnant, like, that it's just like, then you're just being an asshole? I wonder whether or not that will come come up again.

Yeah, I think that it's worth noting that Viseras, as many characters remind us to start the episode, wasn't interested in challenging Damon at all. And in fact, Viseras says, like, what would you have me do? You know, send him to the wall, put his head on a spike. It's only when he learns, when they learned that it was Dreamfire's egg,

the same egg that Reneera had picked for Bailon's cradle, the air for a day, that Viseras has moved to act. because that is such a deeply cruel and personal affront. The egg that had been chosen for your dead son is the one that I came to take. Like, of course, that is an effort to draw Vassaris out. And that gets back to this real tension that we saw between them in the throne room scene in the premiere, but also this love and affection.

Like, I believe Damon in episode one when he said, I want to be by your side. Why do you, like, why do you let this asshole who I don't respect advise you and cast me into these other positions? So he wants Viseras's attention. I loved so much. I mean, the visuals were gorgeous, seeing Keraxes move down from the fortress onto the bridge, seeing Syrax emerge up through the fog, the low light, the low sun. It was just stunning. Dragons also, they kind of talk now? Some sweet.

Okay. This is my moment for Dragon Sound. design. So like what I love about that moment is that you hear both of them before you see them. You hear Caraxies and you hear Syrax before you see them. And I sent a message to my pal Paula Fairfield who does the dragon sound design on, she did on Game of Thrones, is doing it on House of the Dragon. And I was asking her about the sign design on Caraxis. And she said, basically Miguel Sapashik said he's the dragon that no one loves and he has a deviated septum. And my expansion was that he's a bullying white boy who thinks he can wrap and overcome.

So like real kindleroy energy. He might say that he's a bullying white boy who gets to get a cocaine problem in the 70s, but this is incredible. And overcompensates for his deviated septum. Plus he's always hitting on the lady dragons. He tries to sing a new love sick rap song he wrote for Syrax. Astonishing. Wow.

Rang no notes. Flawless. And like Paula sometimes makes up little stories about the dragon. But she says the whole like the dragon that no one loves and has a deviating. and Septim thing did come from Miguel Sapashnik. That's incredible. And then she said, the clicking and the whistling and the spitting that you hear from Kuroxies in this sequence comes from the same family of sound sources that she used to make

the toddler dragons in season three, episode four of Game of Thrones. So like, Paula has this really cool sound library. And if you go to her studio, which is the coolest place in the world, she's got like this thing she calls the bone yarn, which is all these bones that are hanging up that make a bunch of noise. And like just the way she puts together the sound. design on these dragons. And like, this is just part of my ongoing attempt to get Chris Ryan to acknowledge that there are different dragons on this show. I know that they're different. I just don't need to invest in their biographies just yet. You know, I don't know. Now I know.

Well, if I had known they had deviated septum in the writing rap, yeah. To every character from succession, then will it help you invest in who they are? Can we just just want to meet your woman? And one Tom and one Kendall. I think that was like Kendall versus Shiv was what we saw. I love this so much. This is incredible. The other, there were so many interesting dynamics there, but I love that, like, auto orders everybody to the sheath their fucking swords as soon as he sees. I was going to say the shit talk on the bridge is outstanding.

It's amazing, but it's, like, such, again, he's not even there. And in his absence, it is an extra forceful indictment of Viseris because Reniro was right when she said, you have Dragon Rider send us, like, look how quickly things are resolved. and Reneira's action as a point of contrast is so palpable in this moment. And then like the debrief later, of course he loves his daughter. He has great affection for her,

as Joe and I have talked about. But he's also framing that in, you're my air language, which was like really dispiriting and strange, obviously for Runeer herself. But she's able to diffuse the situation to get the dragon egg back in that little dragon keeper kiln

speaking in High Valerian, initially challenging Damon. The crockpot gets the little back shoulder, back shoulder pass from old Dame there. It's amazing. Mahomesian ball security from Damon, just really leaving it out there for anybody

who wants to try and strip it. God. That whole seed was just so, so great. And I loved the look on Otto's face as he watched Renera walk back through and then take off because Wood is playing on his feet.

there's almost some begrudging respect. He can't help but acknowledge that she's an effective leader. But I think also, to me at least it seemed like that moment was one of almost panic. Like this is not somebody I'm going to be able to control the way I can her father. And the episode starts with him booting her out of the small council room by saying like perhaps there's better uses for the princess's talents elsewhere. And then goes to that assignment and tries to like, you know, manage her on the Kingsguard assignment. as well.

And yeah, so I think this is a huge moment. And then when she shows up, he tells Kristen Cole escort the princess to safety. And she's like, watch out for my dragon. She's very protective. You know, so, yeah, Otto has got this, he backed Ranira because he didn't want Damon, but he can't have Ranira because Ranira is uncontrollable. And she's already starting to show flashes of like, well, when you have dragons, you can do anything.

So, you know, and then maybe things shouldn't work the way that they work. and if we have dragons, we can be as progressive as we want to be. You know, gosh, so there's two big points I kind of want to hit before we go. One is just the overall theme of power being consolidated or acquired through marriage, which obviously is what happens at the end of this episode. Although, I mean, just as somebody who has watched enough Game Thrones, it doesn't seem like a lot of relationships founded on love really bode well for the people involved in them.

You know, like most relationships in Game of Thrones that are, hey, these are two powerful people who need to be brought together. Those are the ones that have staying power. It's the ones where it's like, I can't stay away from this person that winds up causing wars

or getting people killed or whatever. Little Robin Talisa. Yeah, or hell even Jamie and Searcy. You know what I mean? Like, there's lots of opportunities for us to do. John Eagrat should have just stayed in that cave enjoying a life of waterfalls and conalingis. What an alternate history that is.

So with that mind and without spoiling, I guess, the rest of this series, how big of a mistake did Vassarish just make? Or, I mean, like, you can't answer that. So how big of a... Here's something I think I can say about this episode. I think that there... I mean, first of all, this definitely isn't a love match because Allison is, like, chewing her own fingers off throughout this whole thing. And it's just, like, you know, being steered by her father. But, like, to your point, Fasaris is following his, wow, she mended my Lego mini fig for me.

Thank you so much. And she seems to have her the same interests. Like, right? We're both bookish. We both love replicas. You know what I mean? Yes. We both like to read.

But I think to, there are some really, like, own goals that. Exactly. That's the sports work. Thank you. See? She's a ringer. But he. that he makes in this episode

where it's just sort of like he could have done this but what if he had had like a side conversation with Corliss first what if he had told Renira for you know like why did he announce it

the way that he did well I mean I would say he was opinion shopping and he kept getting the same one I mean I thought it was very striking how Lionel Strong's way of talking to him about why it made sense

for him to marry Corlis' daughter was pretty like very straightforward and very like sober you know what I mean? I mean, whereas everybody else seems to be, like, manipulating him a little bit. And maybe Lionel was manipulating him as well.

That was a really cool little speech he gives where he's just like, I understand, like, this sucks. But if you're trying to like, if the goal here is to not lose power and to make sure your family stays where it is, like you got to do this one. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with Joe. It felt like a real, this is just a series of unforced errors because he actually has a, over the course of the episode opened up to Reneira, and she has opened up to him in turn. And one of the things that I thought,

this was a big, you know, we haven't talked about Alicent as much today, and I think this was obviously a huge Allison's High Tower episode. And it was fascinating to watch her interact with both, with Viseras, with Reneera, and with her own father, and try to glean her personal motivation in each situation.

And we have so much about her interior thinking in life that we don't know and we're just getting to glimpse for the first time. And I think that her affection for Reneira, for example, is deeply felt and very sincere. But absolutely undeniable. Undeniably so. But it is also true that when they're at the Sapt and Reneira is saying, like, all these bros in the realm just cannot wait for another air to come along so they can get rid of me and move me out of the line of succession. And she is opening up her heart that Allison does not repay that confidence with candor of her own, does not reveal that she has been for six months meeting in secret with Viseras, Reneer's father, tries to counsel and encourage Viseras to welcome

Reneira, which is as much projection about, hey, well, what if you welcomed me into your life, right? And then to guide Reneira to go open up to her father. So Alicent is a maneuverer as well. And even though she is also being used as a pawn in this really hideous way by her father, she is acting in a fascinating fashion throughout the episode. So why does it Vesera say to Reneira in their very forthright exchange about the need for him to marry? By the way, let me tell you who I'm thinking this should be. Yeah.

Your best friend who is your same age, by the way. And that's a huge show difference is that, like, Alison and Reneer are the same age who just makes this. way worse. Yeah, way more Brian DePaul Ney than you'd expect it to be. Let's wrap up with our guy. So the last sort of moment of the episode is obviously this alliance

that comes between Corliss and Damon, although I will note, and overall I had this question. I kind of like Damon as this dude who's like, it's not like he has a plan. Like when Corlis is sort of going at Vassaris and Damon's like, that's my brother.

I can say that, but you cannot say that. I was kind of like, okay, but everything you're doing is weakening your brother. You know, you go to Dragonstone, now you're scheming behind his back. So this sort of like familial bond that you two have while sweet

is you're not really like playing that out in practice. In any case, these two kind of come to some sort of backstage idea of like what they're going to do going forward. And then the last shot is of the crab feeder. crab feeder coming.

Winter is coming. And I just want to know a little bit more about this guy. I know I have to be patient. But what are, what's his business model? Like, what are his core values? And seriously, though, who's paying this guy? Like, who, because is he an independent operator? Or is he a functionary of something else?

Or is that just something I need to wait for? I think they mentioned a couple times. Like, who do you think is funding Kragas, crab feeder, if not the free cities? You know, like, um, I think that, you know, like, because there is the argument that can be made that Cragus Crabfeeder is just a pirate, particularly vicious one that we can clean up. And the point that Vassaris, Otto and my guy, Lord Beesbury are making is that to...

God's be good. God's be good. That to attack Cragus Crab Feeter is to declare war on the free cities. Right. And I will say this is where the show. is going to have to do a lot of extra work that the book, like, we don't have a ton of book answers, do we, Mallory? No.

He likes carpentry and seafood. Just some great, some great form on the batting stance as he's, low center balance, yeah. Yeah, the hips. I see a real power hitter doubles to the gap. I just don't think we can end the episodes as we're talking about David and Corliss in the stepstones here without noting that one of the most shocking digs, of the entire episode was Damon saying it was never my brother's strongest trait.

Corliss asking what? And Damon's saying being king. So good. But it's so funny because then Corlis is like, yeah, fuck that guy. And Damon's like, hey, I can see it. I know. But Chris, to your point then about Damon and this brotherly bond and Rift, like, what was the opening note for the series?

We didn't get the great council scene just to see Viserish chosen over Renice, though, of Of course, that was a huge part of why. It's because we get in the voiceover the mission statement of the show, the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. And so even when there's sincere affection and the, hey, won't you look at me and welcome me back into the fold reason for the way that Damon is behaving, the consequences are not always things that these characters are anticipating in full. Yeah.

And that's why it's an entertaining show. That's why it's a fun story. If everybody knew exactly what the consequence of their choice was going to be, there wouldn't be much of a television show. Yeah, that would be a short show. Can I drop one last Lord of the Rings reference before we go just to bring this week of content altogether? Corlis Valerian says to Damon, waiting the substance is a chance for you to prove your worth to any who might doubt it, which of course has to make us think of King Denethor who says a chance for Faramere captain of Gondor to show his quality, which is a real shit thing to say to your second son over there. and Gondor. Oh, God.

Yeah. I'm fired up. Which has been absent, as people keep pointing out for so long, is really this place where the second sons, the lowborn, or whatever, can work their way at the ladder. Upper mobility.

That's what this is all about. I'm fired up. I thought this is a good episode. Andy and I talked about it a lot. We had our critiques, but we were, I think, generally, like, you know, judging it against its baseline line of like, this is pretty good.

Here's some notes, but it is pretty good. I wanted to ask you to one thing is I, you know, we don't often get to chat about like the kind of more, I guess, like, critic point of view on the show. After two episodes, and it's only two episodes, did you notice? Because Andy and I talked about this for much of the watch episode that's going up now. Do you note slash miss any of like the Benny Off and Weiss, like, just the little seasoning that they had for their version of George Martin's world, where it had, I think, a little bit more, I don't know what, like, what's the dynamic range?

Yeah, humor. Humor. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think not having a Tyrion character, like, as great as Matt Smith is, is Damon Targaryen, like the closest we have to this kind of thing, not having a Tyrion, not having those really, like, witty jokes or really funny moments. And then also, and we've talked about this, the cross-section of society, we're still operating with the lords and the kings and the princesses. And so you do miss being down in the muck and the mud and the dirt.

I guess we're in the sand with the crab feeder. But I think I miss – I'm really enjoying the show. I like it a lot. I really am enjoying it on rewatch. Like I think the scene in the sept with Reneera and Allison – The candle scene, right? Yeah, with the candles. was just some of the finest, like, tense acting

that I've seen from people on Thrones. That being said, I do, but I think it could be coming. Yeah, I think it's growing that way. That's why I'm like, this is like such a fake criticism because it's two episodes and they haven't really left the small council room that much, you know, so I, but I do, I think inevitably people go back to the beginning of Game and Thrones to compare and contrast the two shows.

And I was like, man, the beginning of Game of Thrones is funny, you know, it's really funny. Yeah, I agree with what you both said. I mean, I think that Joe, to that last point, I would anticipate more room to play in that respect once the timeline slows down. You know, that connects to what we were talking about earlier, where, like, on the one hand, it's, there is actually kind of like a leisurely pace inside of the episodes because so much of it is oriented around Tyrion's favorite thing,

great conversations and elegant rooms. But those are heavy, somber conversations. about vast and meaningful things in the history of the house and the characters and the realm. So once we are no longer zipping through quite so many months and years at a time and we slow down and live more fully

inside of each episode in a given moment, I think there's more room for zingers, you know, take the time to go enjoy a bowl of brown return to the street of silk for another orgy. I can't wait. Steve Allman was our producer today, Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin.

Thank you so much for joining me. You guys have your House of Our Deep Dive on Tuesdays. As I mentioned a couple of times, Andy and I cover the show on the watch. More from a critical eye, but we still chat it up. We break down a couple of the scenes. And then we will be back next Sunday night for episode three.

Any closing notes? Can we call you the Maggot King or is that? I kind of like that. Okay. Yeah. That feels like a sharp in the heading anyway. We'll see you guys next week. All.

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