House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 4 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

Time to hit the Street of Silk with Mal and Jo to dive deep into the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’! They begin as they Rally the Realm with their overall impressions of this scandalous episode (06:59). Later they enter the Dragon Pit to investigate all the juicy plot details (09:49). Later, they hand out episode awards (2:23:12) and have a great chat with the show’s set decorator, Claire Richards, about the amazing sets and tapestries constructed for the show (02:32:17). They end with a trip down Spoiler Lane to talk about the book’s foreshadowing and what’s to come (02:48:49). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone. This is Chris Ryan from The Ringer. As many of you have heard by now, we lost a treasured colleague and friend over the weekend. Jonathan Charks passed away on Saturday. John was 34. He leaves behind a wife and a son, and we are obviously mourning his loss and sending all of our love to his family right now. If you go to the ringer.com slash Jonathan Charks, that's J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-T-J-A-R-K-S. You will find a memorial page for John, which has links to his GoFundMe that benefits his family. family, and the amazing writing he did throughout his experience. I encourage you to go there, and if you can, please support the Charks family. Briefly, I will just say that John was among the first people that we hired to work for The Ringer, so he was instrumental in defining the voice and perspective of the site. He has as much to do with what this place is as anyone else. And throughout his experience with Cancer, John communicated eloquently about the challenges he was

facing, both through his writing and his podcasting. You could never stop John from talking about his passions. It's one of the things I loved about him. Over the last few months, you know, whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John focused, and the next thing I knew we would be talking about James Hardin or Better Call Saul. He really loved this stuff. He loved talking about it, celebrating it, debating it, illuminating it. We're going to keep putting out our pods and writing while we grieve, but we wanted to let folks know that John was in our hearts and that his family was in our thoughts. Thanks for listening. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Is a vile accusation. Is it?

You Targaryans do have queer customs. And Damon certainly knows no limit. Alison, your grace, sister, you must know I would never. You're going to believe such gossip. My father is no gossip. Well, certainly he's been misled. He could not have witness such a thing. Why not?

Because it did not happen. And welcome into the Ringerverse, here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Street of Silk but also to join us on the Ringers' Nexus podcast feed

for all things fan. Joining me today, now that she is finished telling me she'll take me as I am and pod with me in the tradition of our house. It's my house of our working title.

Co-host Joanna Robinson. Imagine me throwing a podcast microphone at your feet and saying, add it to the chair. We are here, of course, to dive deep into House of the Dragon episode four, King of the Narrow Sea, written by Ira Parker, directed by Claire Kilner. But before we put on our page boy outfits to dive in, some programming reminders. Yeah.

You know the hot D slate by now. Talk to Thrones on Sunday night. The watch on Sunday night, House of R, right here on Tuesdays, trial by content on Thursdays. Listen to it all. And then come back for more because Joe and I will have a House of Our Rings of Power deep dive for you every Friday. The Midnight Boys, Pugh, pew, pew. We'll be with you every Wednesday. Some Andor preview talk coming this week and then and or breakdowns starting next week.

Unbelievably. Ben Lindberg, we'll be back on Thursday to continue. chatting about with me. She-Hulk. With you, Joanna Robinson. Heck yeah. Joe, how can everyone follow all of that? Oh my gosh. I wish they would follow, subscribe on wherever you get your podcast, find the ring orverse and just subscribe and then you'll get all of that. Follow us on social, on Twitter, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Jomi is out here doing his best to make sure you know what we're up to. And like we had a, we had two weekend episode. Like, we're putting out a lot

this stuff. So you really want to follow along so you don't miss the thing. And if you have thoughts, you can send them our way. Send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. And of course,

bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, as always. Today's podcast will feature plot details from House of the Dragons fourth episode, all of hot D to date, anything from Game of Thrones, on the table. We're going to chat about fire and blood and a song of ice and fire in the book canon throughout the pod in terms of context, historical insights, parallels. On the book, look ahead front.

We'll have a separate section at the end of the pod. You will have a spoiler warning on the brink of that segment. And special guest today, Joe, tell the people about your chat. We've got a great little chat with Claire and the Richards, who is the sort of set director, works with a production designer on the on the show. We had a lot of burning questions about some things that you might have seen in the background of some shots of King's Landing. So really interesting. I always love talking about to the creatives on a throne's property

because there's so much that goes in, so much detail that sort of escapes the eye. So we will be talking about that later. Cannot wait to hear it. Before we begin today, I just wanted to take a moment. to remember our beloved colleague and friend Jonathan Sharks who passed away this weekend.

John was a really incredible person, just so kind and curious and passionate and vibrant and caring. And if you go to the Ringer website or our Twitter page or John's author page, you can find a link to the GoFundMe that supports his wife, Melissa, and his son, Jack.

So please, if you're able, please consider donating to that. And please just take some time to spend with John's writing and John's podcasting. He was so unbelievably generous to share what he was thinking and what he was feeling throughout his cancer diagnosis about his faith, about his family, about the things that really matter in this life. And he will be really dearly missed. Thank you all. We will be right back with today's episode. Okay, there is, of course, no easy transition to make here. Joe, let's begin our episode four chat where we always like to. With our opening snapshot to set the table, it is time to rally the realm. Joanna Robinson, first of your name, we've got a lot of beat-by-beat action to get to, but quickly before that. Crazy.

Overall impressions of episode four. What did you think? Mal. Joe? I loved it. That's my best Mallory impression. I love it. Yeah.

Amazing. Sorry, I didn't even steal your line except I did. Yeah, it's, I really loved, I loved this episode. I thought it was like, I thought it was the show Fire and All cylinders in a way that it hadn't yet gotten to. And I'm so excited to dive. into it. I can't stop talking about, stop talking about, stop thinking about this episode. There's so much to dig into. So, yeah, Mallory, you want to express your love?

I'll quote you quoting me. I loved it. I loved it. This was my favorite episode of the season. Very intense episode of television full of amazing performances. It just felt good to get outside of the Red Keep into the rhythm of life and Kings landed. and I really like the like night in the life focus of this episode. Because of the time jumps in particular, we've been moving across these monumental moments in the timeline. And obviously a lot of events of great consequence unfold here, certainly. But there was something about this episode that just felt like it could have been any night for these people.

And I think we've needed some of that hour of the owl action. And I was glad to get it. So we're going to go back to the chronological deep dive because every scene warrants attention and focus. We're going to go. And you don't want to miss a thing. Don't want to miss a thing. Four weeks in and still no aerospace from Steve. So that's disappointing.

Deeply disappointed. Steve, what's your over under on how many times you're going to hit the old Beesbury, dear me on this episode? Oh, my question. 20 plus. Okay, but you got, you're ready. You got your like, you've done your stretches. I'm ready to go. Okay.

I feel like Vegas has taken this bet off the board. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, Joe. It is time to head into the dragon pit for the episode four. Deep dive. I'm ever stopping the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. I don't know. Never has that particular dragon shriek been more warranted than for this episode of television.

Joe, let's begin where the episode begins. Reneira's marriage tour. We are at Storm's End, which was thrilling, a thrilling location. And Reneera is very begrudgingly hearing from her would-be suitors in the Stormlands and the Riverlands. Bormann Barathean, your guy, personal favorite of yours. Next to Renera. My best friend, Borman Barathean. Hosting and advising, you're always quoting him.

You're like, remember when Bormann said that was unseemly princess? And I was like, what if I have bangs that are as like cool as Borman Baratheans bangs, you know? Gotta be honest. Bormon Baratheans, that was unseemly princess, could make its way onto the Steve Holman soundboard. It feels like it would have utility on a house of our pod. Throwing it out there for future consideration, Steve, up to you. Unseemly. Joe.

Yeah. How did you feel about your time with Lord Dundarian? His proposal presented by Smart Water might be the only person who needs more water during the course of a podcast than yours, truly. You and Sean Fantasy are really tied for the old water bottle at the ready. To your point earlier, Storm Zen, a place we heard about in Game of Thrones and have never seen. So we're finally here. I thought it was really cool. were just in this one sort of receiving area.

I thought it was really cool in the behind-the-scenes episode. They talked about all the fans they put on the set to make it feel stormy and windy inside. Lord Dendary, and I just want to point out that what little we know about Kristen Cole and his, what was it, adventurous? Adventurous youth, yeah. Is that, you know, his father was a steward to Lord Dendarian.

So I think it's a really interesting way to start this episode with like this guy used to be his dad's boss. And now here's Chris and Cole exchanging, like, the tiniest of smirks with the princess at the way this guy is going on. It just, like, shows it really cleverly, I thought, underlined his rapid ascension, you know? Yeah, absolutely. No smirking at the geriatric suitor mentioning deep dry moats. That's not going to get it done, folks. It's not going to get it done.

That's the biggest laugh you got out of me on Sunday, honestly. I didn't see the deep dry moats coming. It really shook me. I've been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking about a lot. It really shook me. We then move from the elder Dundarian, who is unceremoniously dismissed by Reneira. She is not afraid to say that this is not to her liking to a new House of the Dragon tradition, running strong three weeks in a row, a child involved in a potential marriage pack.

Welcome to House of the Dragon, the Blackwoods and the brackets. This was a really cool moment for book readers because this right. rivalry, this feud is a really like deep-seated hatred stretching across the canon dating back to the age of heroes. This was a really fun little wink to book readers, but also a thematically rich one because it's a reminder of how if you are constantly warring, constantly fighting, constantly tearing down, you are not as strong as you might otherwise be. How did you enjoy your time with the Blackwoods of the Brackens. Okay, first of all, I just want to, like, extend my love to the young actor playing

Will and Blackwood. I just thought he was so, like, wonderful and sweet and nervous. And, like, I'm almost like, yeah, Reneer, I feel like your days might be better with this young Blackwood here. Intrigingly, like, this is straight out of the books that there's a Bracken Blackwood duel at Reneer's Cattle Show, Tour of the Kingdom. The writers decided to change the names of these particular boys. Willem and Gerald are their names in the show.

I think it's Samwell and I can't remember the name of the bracket. Amos. Amos, yeah. Yeah. I don't. Why did this happen? I don't know. I was confused by this.

I don't know. I think it might be, you remember how in the first season of Thrones, there was like a guy who showed up to be Barrett Dundarian who was not Richard Dormer. who played Barrick Dundarian going forward. Yeah. So I wonder if this is like a casting. Yeah, this is like a casting thing of like, we don't want to cast our, you know,

Samuel Blackwood in season one. But with the time jumps, I don't really understand how that would be relevant anyway. So. Yeah. I don't know. Interesting. At first I thought, okay, this is the Samwell Amos stool

because of the fire and bloodline that you already mentioned. Then I was like, wait a minute, is this bloody Ben Blackwood because of timeline shifts? And that would be a change that would be entirely possible given the way things are moving around, even if it would change some things about the age of the characters. But new names entirely. So there's a twist for you. Regardless, delightful to have the Blackwoods in the mix.

Shout out Liz Shannon Miller, who like emailed HBO on a Friday afternoon to be like, what is the name of this Blackwood child? So she got the intel from HBO. Thanks. Despite the very compelling pitch from, again, young child Willem. So that part is not compelling to be clear. And the duel that ensues, Reneira is just having none of it. She is miserable.

She is not afraid to say so. She is horrified by the fact that everyone is either too old or too young. The whole thing feels like this forced farce. And she is holding throughout. the necklace that Damon gave her in the first episode, which is now, of course, her sigil, her marker in the opening credits, the symbol, we can glean from the way that she brings an abrupt end

to the tour here, that this has been the nature of events stop after stop. This is the state of things. Renira has not engaged with this once. This is not what she wants, and she is actively rebelling against the desires of her father. And of course, when we last left to them in episode three, He said, find one who pleases you.

But the pathway to finding one who pleases her is still a carefully curated Vassaris and Allison's crown-managed marriage tour. Yeah. And I would suspect mostly Allison. Like, I think mostly Allison is putting these lords together. Absolutely. And like genuinely, I think that Allison is trying to find the best that she can. She's not like intentionally screwing her.

So I think that's interesting here is like the disdain she shows for everyone in the room. Mirrors like the disdain she showed for everyone in the room in the hunting tent in last, you know, like she's just making no friends with any of the nobility here anywhere. And she's not even making friends with the small folk when she's out with Damon. So like the idea of like, doesn't give a shit about them. Says so. Politics and diplomacy. She has not had the appropriate list. here.

Yeah. It's a great call. When Otto has to be like, thank them for their little service, you know, princess. Like she just doesn't understand this as a part of her job. It's a great call out.

And this idea of loneliness that has been a through line of our pod so far this season and certainly will be again today for multiple characters. For Renira, for Allison, for Damon, for Viseras, for all of them. The way that that manifests,

because we'll hear later, Reneera say that she would prefer solitude to be used as a pawn in this fashion. But when it calcifies in this nature and it leads to this thwarting of any potential friendship or tie, it's a really notable thing when you're in this larger context of potential arrangements, marriage, or otherwise, and this constant presence looming specter of do you have the alliances and the stability of relationships that you need? I mean, it's something we know already about Borman Barathean is that he was like kind of reluctant

when they were asked to swear their allegiance to Reneer in the first place. We got that lingering look in the premiere. You know? So it's just like, Viseris is like, listen, we have to make sure everyone's on board with you. Come on, let's go. And we will go onto our touring barge, our pleasure yacht. This is our lovely little spry vessel. You don't have a podcasting touring barge?

I'd like to. Is that an option? Yeah. Do we get Wi-Fi out on the open seas? Steve? What's the zoo like in Blackwater Bay? Can you look into it and get back to us? What would your touring

a pleasure, podcast pleasure barge, beef is doomed with? Like, because I imagine you're not going for the dragon motif. So is it like Oriole, Baltimore Oriole like themed, some Ravens?

Like, what are we doing here? Boy, it's a great question. I'm going to give it some serious thought. I don't want to rush my answer. I could see, yeah, a bit of a bird's nest, like Oriole, Raven, vibe, though also maybe I'll just lean fully into House Halo and really go for that.

Oh my God. So instead of like the mermaid at the front of the prow, it's just like a magnificent, majestic halo. Yeah. I think that's what I'm going to go with. Maybe like the penetrating slit of a cat's eye or perhaps his paw, his paw print. I'm going to give this some fun and get back to you. Great question. Let's design our own pleasure barges. I feel like we should. should have like matching but contrasting barges and yours will be like the white for halo and mine will be the black for my cat all right this is great we can make our own flags like on our flag means death and test our arts and craft skills perfect okay we'll work on that between pods so they're sailing toward kings landing and we learned that this tour has come to a halt two months ahead of schedule there's a cute little exchange between riner and christina oh well do you think that Dad's going to be mad.

About what? They ended this two months earlier that you rejected every single suitor put in front of you. But Joe, there's not much time for chat. Chatting because there is a screech from above that could only come from a deviated septum. Correct.

E's. Oh, buddy, you're here. Yeah. Damon being super chill on his reentry to, to Kings Landing. Buzz is the buses the ship. It's interesting.

He's been watching Top Gun. He's big on Buzz in the Tower. Yeah. I did see John Hamm on the prow of that Pleasure Barge, so sort of like crouch and then be like, Maverick. But I think that I think that

I don't know if he's just like, if this is just him gently teasing Rainira or what's going on here. but they go fly in when that happens. Absolutely. And notably, as you mentioned on Talk the Thrones on Sunday, we have this lovely little sequence of events to foreshadow what is to come in the rest of the episode

where the disruption, the jostle from Damon, leads to Reneira going right into Sir Kristen Cole's arms. Also notable in terms of foreshadowing future events inside of this very hour of TV, Reneira doesn't get up and say, what the fuck, dude? She's like, that was hot. Yeah, she's like watching

David and Caraxis fly toward the Red Keep with, say, a real taste for his theatrics on her face. She's got to, yeah, yeah. Love that taste for Damon's Theatrix. No, she hightails it

to the throne room so she can be front and center when he walks in. Doesn't want to to miss it and who can blame her because this is the king's landing equivalent of the don't worry darling press store and demon showing up is basically like if flow actually arrived for one of these shared events this is the can't miss moment of the season everybody's there whispering murmuring demon stepstones it is so funny it is like Like, yeah.

Were you in theater? I don't remember. Am I a actor? Yeah. No, though, I enjoy the theater. My dad was a big theater kid. Big theater kid. When you're...

Love to act. When you're a background artist, as they now say these days, and like a theatrical situation, you have to do like, piece of carrots, piece and carrots, or like, Routabaga, Routabaga, to do like background whispering. But I love that.

It was like, Bluff of Stepstones. It was so funny. Anyway. I like the idea that they've all just been like whispering his name for years waiting for his return. It really did have this sense of heft in their collective lives. It was so funny. And Baby Bro walks in wearing a crown, rocking a new do.

And we have a lot to talk about in terms of character arcs, relationships with span decades, the future of the realm. But we're not going to start with any of that. We're going to start with a special report from Joanna Robinson. Wigwatch. Clock it in for Wigwatch early. Reporting for duty. Big moment. It is a really interesting choice that they decided to give him.

This is like the short hair on the elves over on Rings of Power. This is like a big move for a Targary to have short hair. I'm a fan. The question we asked previously was, did he cut his hair because it was too hard to get the blood out of the blonde? And he's just like, never mind, I'll cut him. off, like when you get lice or whatever and you can't get it out. Something I will say, I've seen a lot of people who aren't as familiar with Matt Smith be like, why does it look so weird this wig?

And I just want to let you know that if you've watched any hours of Doctor Who, that's genuinely just what Matt Smith's hair looks like. Like, I actually think the wig makers did an incredible job of, like, capturing the old Matt Smith forelock, the blonde forelock sort of falling forward. So, yeah, it's a real choice that they made here. But you don't miss the Liga last week, right? Because you weren't a fan of the Liga last week. No, this is a big improvement.

I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. I hope we stay in Thor has short hair land for a long time here. Reneira, first of all, certainly seem to appreciate it. Something I love in that moment is like, Viseris sees her first. And is like, I'll deal with that later, I guess. I have to do with this right now. It's a lot happening at once for Vassaris.

And it seems almost, I've had to rewind it a couple times, I'm not sure, but it seems also the Damon clocks are first, like before he even sees Viseris when he walks in and gives it like a little smirk. So all eyes on Reneira. I love tracking all of the glances, the dynamics, the way that his demon makes his way up the length of the throne room Reneera is following along and parallel through the crowd. A very rich text to parse. as are the visuals in general in this scene,

because we can contrast Damon's just general swagger. Not only the new haircut, the crown, the armor, he's got his sword, Dark Sister, the dagger. He's holding the hammer of his fallen foe. Nice to see that the crab feeder managed to be present in this episode in some way.

We didn't want to say goodbye entirely. Had to have a little bit of that grayscale, crab juice make its way into episode four in Kings Landing. Thank God. And we contrast this to what is like ultimately kingly cosplay from Viseris because we opened this scene with him receiving these adornments. He receives his crown. He receives Blackfire, the other fabled ancestral Valerian steel sword of House Targaryen. And these feel in this scene, particularly in contrasted Damon, who was walking with such confidence, a battle hero,

now a legend, having vanquished a foe. These feel for Vassaris, like these props that are there to remind Damon and the assembled and Vassaris himself that he is king, just like when he summoned Damon

at the end of episode one, needed to be on the throne, needed to hold blackfire, needed to be in the throne room surrounded by those statues of the Targaryen kings. And we had fun talking about this for a moment on Talk the Throneon.

on Sunday, but I was particularly struck by the fact that he is using Blackfire as a walking stick. This is like a real indictment. The conquering sword of Agon the dragon turned into a crutch. One episode after we saw Damon use Dark Sister to cut through legions of those. And it reminded me a bit of the hunt from episode three, like the clapping. where there is this manufactured air for so much of Viseras's authority. And I think that idea, I mean, we hear it a little later from Vassaris when he and David are talking about their mom and he was like, I was no great warrior, you know.

It's just constantly on his mind. And then when he talks about his dad later also, he talks about his dad being this hail and healthy warrior, dragon rider at the peak of his abilities. And something that's interesting about the swords, I was just thinking about it this week because Vassaris brought up his father is that, like, Blackfire is theoretically, like, the more valuable sword in that it is Agon, the Conqueror's sword. But Dark Sister was their dad's sword. Like, that Damon got their father's sword, you know, and Agon, like, there's something

in there that's interesting to me. But, yeah, nonetheless, you've mentioned it a couple times. His abuse of Blackfire is just embarrassing. It is really interesting to see how those feelings of inadequacy in terms of how Vassaris thinks of himself as a warrior or dragon rider, all of these things that we're tracking continue to manifest and he needs to cloak himself, shield himself against them.

That is his armor in a way. We hear Vesaris after he observes the crown, which I had thought, by the way, was Driftwood, but in the featurette, the House of the Dragons built, we hear it's bone. Cool. I love this. Oh, that's another thing.

Another fun theory I heard is that the haircut is because his leg loss hair kept getting tangled in the bone crown. Like, you know, when you like this I love. You know how when you try to wear a crown mallor and your hair gets tangled in it? My version of this is that I always need to put my hair up to put on my headphones for podcast. So I actually am familiar with this. Yes. But like the bone crown, which is like held together with wire, like that looks very. tangly. So if Damon's just like, F, it cut it off, you know. I love the style, but if it means I can

put the bone crown on my head to briefly make my brother very uncomfortable in public view, I'll do it. Break out the scissors. Time for a trim. And Viserra says, you know, you're wearing a crown. Do you also call yourself King? And we get a very interesting response to that. Damon tosses the crab feeder's hammer at Viseras's feet in this sequence. It says, added to the chair. the chair of full of the swords of Agon's vanquished foes. And Damon then bends the knee. And in the inside of the episode, the showrunners were talking about

how they wanted the viewers to be unsure, unsure of what Damon would do, of how he would behave. And there are some interesting parallels here to what unfolds on the show and what unfolded in the text in Fire and Blood, but also like a couple interesting differences and distinctions.

that I was interested to ask you about. Yeah, I think that, I think adding to that level of uncertainty, and I set you a screech on this, I think it's so funny. Harold Westerling's at the front of the throne room, and as Damon walks in, Damon flips the hammer in his hand, like at the top of the stairs. So what a diva. I mean, the Kingsguards, they have to stop him at sword point.

They're so unsure what he'll do. But Harold puts the helmet on. Like, oh, is he going to bash you with his hammer? I guess I got to be like while Damon's walking, Harold's like, a helmet on, I guess, here we go. What's going to happen, you know? By the way, we haven't talked about this yet. We're on episode four.

This is not relevant in this scene, but you mentioned the helmets and now it's on my mind. These are not helmets that the King's Guard should be wearing. Any carefully placed sword thrust is going to split your face in half. How about a close helm? Just throwing that out there. What are we doing? They look like a bunch of dorks also. All right, to the text.

What do you want to ask me about? Okay, so Corlis. We hear Vesaris ask about Corlis here, and Damon says only that Corlis sailed home. And that they, he says here, named him king. We can deduce that this must be the Valerian forces at large. But in the text, the line is, quote, Prince Damon declared himself,

iconic distinction there, by the way, declared himself versus they named me, King of the Stepstones in the Narrow Sea, and Lord Corlis placed a crown upon his head. So the text specifying that Corlis sanctioned this has always felt notable to me, and we don't get that degree of detail here in the show. What did you make of that?

Yeah, it's really interesting. I almost don't know what to make of it, and maybe it's just because we have another Corliss moment later that is just sort of like, We'll deal with that then. I also think, I like, so also Damon's arrival in the book is that he like sort of circles, they're at a tourney ground and he circles and lands in the, it was like so dramatic, lands in the middle of the turning ground and offers the crown up to the Saras.

It's like basically up in a box at the tourney grounds. But like I think they, without having to like do the budgetary expenditure of another whole ass tourney, I think they captured, like, with him rocking the ship and, like, walking into the throne room here, I think they captured the disruptive nature of this arrival. He's a show-off. He wants everybody to pay attention to him at all times. One of the other distinctions is that it's specified in the text that Damon returned to the small council after their reconciliation before things turned to shit again, as they inevitably do.

So quickly, yeah. But that, I think, is just a product of the. timeline and how by the end of this episode we have to get to the next banishment. And so there's really no time for anything in between. But that was just something that I wanted to note is specified in the text. In terms of the reconciliation itself, though, it is very similar. We read in fire and blood he knelt before his brother and offered up his crown as a token of his love and fealty. Vesaris returned the crown and kissed Damon on both cheeks, welcoming him home. and the Lords in common sent up a thunderous cheer

as the sons of the Spring Prince were reconciled. And other than Otto, who looks like he's going to vomit, watching his reconciliation play out, everybody's clapping, everybody's happy, and Viseras and Damon are expressing real tenderness toward each other. I thought that Matt Smith's acting choice here

to nuzzle his head against big bro's shoulder or like he was a little puppy was just pitch perfect in terms of Damon's character. What did you make at that moment? Yeah, absolutely. I loved that. And we should say like timeline-wise, what I think is really interesting, to your earlier point about compressing this into like a day in the life, a day and a night in the life of Damon, is that like he's back at court for a bit longer before he fucks up again and

has to be exiled. So I love that he can't even last a day. Can't even last a day, King's Landing. And it's this whole thing where it's like, this idea of change, you know, like, Renira brings it up later. You know, war has changed you. Yeah. But George in the text says, not really. Like, his nature remains the same.

And so I like that this shows that, like, he can't even go a day without doing some typical Damon shit, you know? And then it's like, war was not the making of him. It was the elevating of his reputation. Right. With the people, what he did here. He's a war hero. You know, and it certainly gets him in good with House Valerian because he's done a lot for, like, Corliss's position.

But in terms of turning him into something else, no. That's that old Bendoo line we love so much from rebels. Only you can change yourself, you know? Damon has not found himself capable of that. You know? That moment with Viseras is so interesting to contrast to their scenes later. maybe we can circle back to that a bit, but I think trying to reconcile

what seems like a genuine desire for his brother's affection in that moment and his brother's acceptance and his brother welcoming him back into the not only political life, but into his heart, into their home, is real, but it fades so quickly. And like well before their confrontation at the end,

we hear Reneera in the next scene in this God's Wood Welcome Home Feast, the after party that the two of them have after this larger sequence, which we'll get to in a couple minutes, say to him basically like, you're taunting my father. She uses the word taunting to just to ask him, why did you come home other than to taunt my father?

And I thought that was so interesting that even in that moment of what seemed relatively like real affection, there's this like less charitable read on it. Well, and I think even though there is that lovely, Like, I think we know that in Vassaris, too, because as we go into this next scene, right, the feast in the godswood, Veseris is trashed, right? And it doesn't seem like trashed in an excited I'm glad my brother's home kind of way. It's always complicated with Viseris. I genuinely believe that Damon and Vassaris love each other. And I genuinely believe that Vassaris is predisposed to forgive Damon because he's his younger brother and he loves him so much. but also the combo of Reneira and Damon coming back at the same time, both under chaotic circumstances, Vassaris is like, another, please, pour me another.

Like, you know, we find him mean drunk in the godswood. Yes, our guy always has a goblet of wine in his hand. And this is, you know, many things that he and his brother are not sharing, but a love for wine is something that they. are sharing because they are both annihilated in this episode. Can I ask, Joe? Yeah. A godswood. Yeah. Is this the place for a bash? Well, I think they wanted to make sure that Brand was included in the party. So they make sure to have as many scenes as possible under the heart tree so that Brand can always like peek it. And like, Bray doesn't want to miss the party scene. So much delightful stuff going on.

Something I did clock at this party, though, Sansa's lemon cakes. Yes. Yes. Not only the presence of a lemon cake, but what does Renair doing? She's peeling the candied lemon slices off the top, like going right for the sweet frosting.

Yeah. Who among us? Honestly, who among us? What about Allison's outfit, Joe? Because you were noting last week at the hunt that she had shifted to this red color palette, but that it was possible to perceive that as a reaching toward the Lannister aisle, but this is full targigalia.

Deeply targgy. The targiest thing I've ever seen. I don't think even DeNaris has ever worn anything this tarkey. Are you disturbed by this or just happy that Allison is mixing it up in the wardrobe department? Does it look kind of incorrect on her? Like it's a beautiful dress, but I thought it like stood out and looked odd on her. More because you had seen her in one dress for so long. Yeah, I miss that.

One solitary green-blue dress. I do like the way that the gauzy red sleeves almost with like wings. But to me, I can just imagine Allison being like to her royal seamst sisters. I would like to make me the targiest dress you've ever seen. And that's the result, you know. It's an interesting look. The sleeve point is a great one because that's a way for a non-Dragon rider inside of House Targaryen to. have those dragon wings.

It's a great call. We've been talking about, like, how Damon with his dragon helm and, uh, Reneira with her, Reneer with like the scales on the sleeves of her riding jacket that they've been, like, dressing themselves up in Dragon Regalia and that Vassarist kind of doesn't. So it's interesting that Allison is sort of trying it on here, you know? Yeah. He's got, he's always got a sigil on his chest, but mostly is just focused with having enough fabric to cover all of his soars, honestly.

We'll be talking about those stores more later. Do you think it like, never mind, I don't want to say this. Let's go. We're eating lemon cakes. I don't want to talk about the source. Oh, no. Save the source for after the party. But on the subject of Vassaris here, there are a lot of really fascinating dynamics at play in this sequence.

And in general, the dynamics between Vassaris and Damon, Vesaris and Reneira, Damon and Reneira and Alicent. Allison and Vassaris are the heart of the... this episode. And we feel to continue that conversation about that affection, this nostalgia from Viseris just pouring out, spreading across the godswoods like the roots of the wearwood. It is this irrepressible and kind of sweet but also sad thing from him because there's a little bit of that jealousy and that longing that he connects to what you were saying earlier about this warrior status. He talks about the way that Damon was the favorite child of their mother.

And I think that it's worth remembering. Actually, our Kylie Riley Magity wrote about this really, really interestingly in his column on the runner.com, What a great website today, his Tuesday piece, where he broke down the Vassarist Damon history and relationship. They lost their parents pretty young. And thinking about the way that both of their parents, the shadow that they have cast over their lives, the way that that would have brought them closer together when they were children, but also the way that this like adventurous spirit that Alyssa had, by the way, case you're wondering, our beloved listeners at home, yes, their parents were siblings. What? Just in case, you were wondering, continue the pod without mention

that yes, two more Targaryen siblings were fucking each other and got married and they're They're probably telling me there's like a history of incest in the Targaryian family, Mallory Rubin? I don't believe it. Oh my God. Slander. Incest. It's everywhere for House Targaryen. Anything else on the nostalgia that really, we need to like reshop those house words for House Targaryen?

Because I don't think it's incest. It's everywhere you want to be. you know. Fire and blood, fucking and family. Let's see. Fire and blood, fucking and family.

Incest and inbreeding? Does that work? Family. The dragon has three heads. And two backs. We like to fuck each other. Tell me. Wow.

We made it pretty far before the first dear me today. I'm honestly proud. Welcome to the chat, Lord Beasbury. Oh my God. that other very palpable sensation emanating off of Vassaris is that he is very pissed at Reneira.

The looks that he's giving her, the things that he's saying, there's this really, like, you notice he's kind of a mean drunk, and Alicent makes a very kind offer, sweet offer to show Damon the new tapestries, and Vassaris wasted, mocks her. Would you like to see the tapestry?

He has no interested such things. Reneer is showing Alicent a little bit of an olive branch. they're saying, well, I would be interested. I would like to see this. Why didn't they go off and look at the tapestries together? I wish they had. Had to go to the bench. Bench, yeah, nice bench chat, I guess.

To set the groundwork for the rest of the episode. Really squeezing that godswood set. But I would love to have seen these two have a tour of the tapestries. I loved this. And I feel like something that Patty is doing, Patty Constantine is doing really well in his performance as Vassaris is like this. ticked off dad mode. Like, I think he's just really got it, where it's not like he doesn't love his daughter he does,

but, like, pissed off at your teenage daughter. Yeah. Yeah, is just, like, the way that Reneer approaches and she's smiling and she's trying to be docile or whatever, and he's just like, this brat, I'm so mad. And just, like, sneering around. It's a really great performance. Also behaving, though, quite passive-aggressively in teenagery himself, which is another recurring pattern for him.

Damon not looking at Reneer quite the way that Fasaris is. He is looking at her with great interest. Great interest. A lemon cake and he wants to peel off the candy. Oh, my God. God be good. He's observing, too, though. Like, mixed in with the lust and the longing,

he's observing, he's looking with interest, what is passing between these people, what have I missed, catching up in real time and what the dynamics are, which he will then try to manipulate and leverage and use to his favor. And when Renera walks away, she walks to that aforementioned bench

where Allison joins her. Is this their first conversation of substance, the first time that they have broken through to each other in four years? We do not actually know the answer to this question, but what was your read on this? It seems like it. Like, what we want to talk about here for a second is we got wind of this last week, the fact that there were some deleted scenes between Allison and Rainer. One looks like an argument. The other is Renier helping Allison into her wedding dress.

So we were deprived. Literally the things that we were like, these are the scenes we wish we had. Yeah. Deprived of a gorgeous, like, you know, shout out to the costume department who probably slaved over that wedding dress and then, like, doesn't, not in the show at all. I'm sure we will see, like, them on extras on a DVD or something like that, but I just, I'm bummed we didn't get those scenes. Really, really, I would like, I would like to see them. But to your point, even with those scenes, I mean, maybe Renira was able to must. some tenderness for Allison when she's helping her get ready. We don't know. We'll find out maybe eventually. But for our purposes, for the story that's being presented to us officially, this does seem to be like the first breakthrough in four entire years.

Yeah. And on the heels of that real cold scene, at least the coldness that Reniro was still feeling toward Allison in episode three. Yeah. of their like sort of the princess asks you to say the queen tells you to leave sort of thing. So yeah. And I love this

bonding that they have here over common grounds. And it's so, because it's so interesting to establish this here in parallel with the detente between Damon and Vassaris, this coming together of a strange their sisters, she calls her sister later

while she's lying to her face, but still like there, you know. It's more natural to say than stepmom, I guess. Their sisters, you know, Viseris and Damon are brothers, this like coming together and a reminder to us

the audience of like, what is at risk here? What could we stand to lose if things don't go well? I thought that this was a really moving scene and also a really tragic one for the reason that you're outlining because like there's this tenderness.

They're touching hands. They're moving toward each other on the bench moving ever closer across their conversation. There's an apology when Renera wounds Allison was something that she says in the moment. There's this mutual longing, this sense that they both have, of feeling trapped,

of feeling used. And we get this moment where we feel real sorrow for and empathy toward Allison, where she's talking about how she's losing herself in this larger arc, as we've been discussing,

where she is finding this new version, version of herself. She says to Renera that she's glad she's home and that she says, quote, I find I have few friends lately. I like to believe I'm still the lady Allison, but all anyone sees when they look at me now is the queen. And Renera says, I've missed you too. Now, this is like heart-wrenching and heartbreaking in a moment where we feel can they really find their way back to each other again, despite everything that has happened. And it's a different thing than what we talked about with Rehnese and Reinerra in episode two, but of a piece in the sense that like one of the great tragedies of the story so far is the way that the realities of the realm and

the roles in the realm separate these women who would otherwise be inclined to support each other and actually are working toward common goals. Common cause, yeah. End up as opposed forces in some capacity. And I did feel that here because even though they have all of these aspects of a common ground in their storylines and their experiences, they actually can't quite find their way to that common ground together. Because Allison says to Renira, because Renira is very unhappy about this marriage, which is not what she wants.

And Allison says, what misery? Like to have all of these lords and knights across the kingdom vying for your hand. And when she says, it's rare for girls in this realm to get a choice between two suitors, no less two score of them. We can process this in multiple ways. On the one hand, it's like,

boy, it would be nice to just say to your friend, I'm really sorry that you're unhappy about this. This sucks. But also, from Allison's perspective, she didn't get a choice at all. Like, she was just used as a pawn on her dad's chessboard. To her best friend's dad's, you know, sore covered, you know, whatever. Anyway, um, yeah.

And I think it's really interesting. In terms of that idea of history, like, if we go back, when you were talking about Vassaris and being sort of nostalgic for his childhood with Damon, maybe think about the fact that like people who knew you when you were young, especially siblings who knew you when you were young, there's something so precious in that. They knew you before, right? And they have this institutional memory of who you were. And for Vassaris especially, who was never really supposed to be king,

Damon knows who he was before he was the king. And you can see that sentiment again here when Allison's like, everyone looks at me now and they see the queen. But Rainira knew Allison before she was the queen. And Renira knows that Alicent is a girl who loves to read under the godswood and all these other things. And so it's just sort of that appeal from both of these monarchs to this memory of the before time. When it wasn't an institution or something like that, I was a real person.

Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it really exacerbates that sense of loss and grief and almost like frustration or sadness for us as viewers because just as we wish that Allison could find even in her very valid statement that one additional degree of empathy, we get the same thing in reverse in that same conversation when Rainira, in essence, says your life specifically is the thing that I fear. She says how romantic it must be to get imprisoned in a castle and make. to squeeze out airs, we see Allison's face sink in that moment. So the point where an error has to apologize. And that line is the lens through which we see Allison's entire experience, the rest of this episode. Yeah, I'm forever going to hold this image of her juggling that truly large baby, adorable, large baby. But Allison is so young.

It just made her look so small and young in front of the caged bars of Emma's old room, you know, like, that's just, that's Allison trapped in a cage to me all the way. But I think that also, what's interesting in that contrast is because, like, if we go back to last week's episode when Allison and Reneer are in the coach on the way to the hunt, and Allison says that thing about like, oh, my birth was super easy. It's fine. Don't worry about it. That's a very insensitive thing to say in front of Reneer who lost her mom to childbirth.

And Allison doesn't have the awareness in that situation to apologize. to Reneer. But Reneer has the awareness here to apologize to reach out to grab her hand, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is, like, in some ways, the most relatable and common thing that you see your, you see everything totally through your own circumstances and, like, can rarely shift that extra degree to see somebody else's experience, even if it's somebody that you feel tenderly

toward and would want to help. It's just also, like, I mean, it's just teenage girl stuff. It really, really is. Yeah. It really is. And the stakes, though, are so high. is they can't just be teenage girls. Alicent is the daughter of the hand,

the wife of the king, the mother to a baby that a large swath of the kingdom wants to make air, the one-time best friend of the air, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. A woman who is finding her own way in the kingdom as well. Reneira is the heir, et cetera, et cetera. So the stakes, the consequences of every exchange, everything they say to each other,

everything they think about themselves, are so keenly felt, and that can be an empowering thing, in some respects, but it can also be a debilitating thing for each other and for the realm at large. Yeah. Not everybody's ready to leave the party

to go with the tapestries, though. There are still loving cakes to be peeled, Valerie. We've got an after party for two. Oh, yeah. Damon and Roanera kicking it, once again, in the godswood, we are making great use of this set and the vibes.

are strong. We heard once that the seed is strong, the vibes are strong here. Yeah, they're vibe. What do you make, Joe? Damon, reach him for the necklace. Here's the deal. Matt Smith is a whole entire adult man.

As is Millie Elcock. But, like, Millie played Renira when she was 14. Hey, Damon, Damon, can you remind us how old? What's the math? How old is Renera now? You've matured yourself these last four years, princess.

18. Age of legal consent in 2022. Thank you for that legal math, Damon Targary. Yeah. She's matured. He's matured. They discuss marriage.

They discuss the realities of marriage, their respective views on freedom for Damon. This is a, quote, political arrangement that doesn't inhibit. anything about the way he conducts himself and lives his life, and he thinks shouldn't inhibit anything for anybody else either. This is a luxury that he has. And, of course, Renera does not.

Right. Which she resents. For Renira, this is, as she says here, a death sentence. And that gets into the other thing that they speak about so openly here, which is childbirth and child rearing. Renira is so truthful with him about what is on her mind, about how her mother's death has shaped her and has shaped the way she thinks about marriage and childbirth in general

and to the point where she says so heartbreakingly in this scene that she would rather be alone, that she would rather choose solitude over that path. And I think that it is like it is just so heartbreaking in this through line of loneliness again because it's another call back to that Vassaris line from episode two about how even a dragon can get lonely. And these characters who often are exuding this sense of strength for other people to see

feel so isolated. And for Renera, that isolation is preferable to being somebody else's political chip. For Damon, he is so lonely that he is actually destroying and sabotaging the relationship that he does have that are now in front of him again. And it makes us think, of course, of the Eamon line that we always like to mention when he was speaking about DeNaris to Sam and said a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing. Reneera and Damon, despite everything, which is very fraught as we'll talk about. They're not lonely when they're together.

They have a closeness and an ability to be vulnerable and frank with each other that is rare inside of the relationships in this show. Yeah, their affinity. Like, they're literally speaking their own language as they speak to hilarious to each other. This connection to each other and to their roots and the history of their house. I think it's really, like, the openness that Reneira shows to this heiress here is the kind that you wish that she could show to Allison, if they were able to, like, further, you know, cross that bridge that they're, you know, carefully putting their feet on. But, like, you know, and I'll just speak personally for myself for a minute, like, one of the hardest things for my female friendships as we've, you know, gotten older, is like the women you know who decide to have children and the women you know

who don't. And it is a really hard thing to weather because the gulf in understanding and world understanding is so wide that even as you try to like empathize and understand each other's choices, you know, all of a sudden there's this thing between you that like wasn't there before. And I think it's really interesting. We got this email from a listener named Bonja who, who wrote Emma Speaking of... Sorry. I forgot about the crow. I also forgot about the car.

I kind of forgot about the car. Danny kind of forgot about the iron fleet and we kind of forgot about the call. Yeah. Emma, so Reneera's mother, Vonia writes, Emma's death really is a pivotal point for her character, Reneer's character, that leaves her alone to be exploited. And if her mother was alive, she would protect, inform, and nurture her. Also, Allison.

mother has died and is not there to protect and form and nurture her. And that's why Vassar's decision to marry Allison is so much more idiotic and in some ways really selfish because Allison could never be Reneer's mother. She is her best friend and she is acting like it, supportive but jealous. And so I love that idea that like there could have been maybe a stepmother, probably not a little later Valerian, but maybe there could have been a stepmother that could have like filled it and like helped Reneira through all this. but it couldn't possibly be alicent

just because of their pre-existing relationship and that these two women are navigating this big turning point in their lives to become wives and mothers without anyone there to guide them. Yeah, and, you know, on the one hand, in the very limited time that we got to witness Renira and Emma interact, they actually talked about child birth as a dude, duty. You know, Emma mentioned their royal wounds and said that the birthing bed was their battlefield,

but it is, it is so heartbreaking and fascinating to think about what the future could have held for a different kind of candor and transparency and vulnerability between them, because there's a very real love and affection and depth of feeling between them. And like, would of the point have arrived where Emma would have said to Reneira a version of what she said to Viseras in the bathtub? in the first episode. Enough. Yeah, exactly.

We're like, I think then of Damon's response to Renira when she says to him here that being made to produce airs killed her mother, and Damon says, like, that was a tragedy. But then what does he say after? This is a tragic world.

You cannot live your life in fear. You will forsake the best parts of it. And I was really struck by that line because on the one hand, it's like the disdiscence. of Damon's character in a sentence. There's some wisdom there, but also the kind of wisdom that he has the luxury of heating

in a way that the person he's saying it to simply does not. And he's not necessarily capable of seeing that side of it. And also, while that is something that I think he really believes and that in many ways is an aspirational idea, it's a creed that consistently leads him asunder, including in this episode. I mean, I think that's true, and what I also really love about Matt Smith's performance

and it's so crucial to us being on this journey with Damon is I believe him when he says that Emma's death is a tragedy. And I believed him at the funeral when he was, like, greatly obsessed, upset. And whether or not he said air for a day, like, I believe he really liked Emma and I believe that he cares how much this devastated his brother and his niece. And that is core to him.

Even as he's saying these things, but we live in a tragic world, he's feeling things deeply as well. It's really interesting. Yeah. And it's an interesting dissonance because he's kind of a spousing move on, follow the path forward in your life

to whatever still awaits. But also he is a character who's pretty consistently anchored by some sort of resentment from the past. I think this is like a really rich text with his character. He's little sibling stuff. Oh, boy.

He is not, as we noted in the show, back on the small council, but we do get a small council check in. It's a quick scene. We'll only talk about it briefly here, but it's interesting for a few reasons. Joe, some notable people returning into our life here, notably your guy, Beesbury. But some missing figures as well,

and also some changes. Renira is sitting at the table. Yeah. And she got her own very own small ball, which I asked about in the interview that you'll hear later in this episode. Oh, the small balls. What is the council assembled for in this moment? They are there to talk about the sea snake.

We've traded a crab feeder for a sea snake. They warned Vesaris. Corliss is still pissed about Lena. One of the funniest parts of this is that Vissaris is like, surely not. Really? Because time is past. It's just like, wait. Wait, how I majorly slotted him in a room full of

people when I could have had a conversation with him first. He's not over that. So funny. The camera pans to auto as they're talking about how Viser's choice of Allison continues to have this damaging consequence for the realm at large and relationships in the realm. And we learn that Corliss is working to engage his daughter to the Seelord of Bravos's son.

And of course, this alliance, the idea of this alliance fills the council with fear. There are a few really interesting dynamics that we just wanted to run through for folks quickly here. Joe, can you outline why the fact that this is coming from Old Town? From the High Towers is so notable. So, like, Hobart High Tower, who is so much more invested than even Otto is in getting A-G-on on the throne, is the source here. And it's like, it's all part of the constant machinations of, like, how can we get Reneer out of the way? And if you, like, tip the dominoes down from like, okay, Corliss is making this political arrangement. Maybe we need to marry off Renira to Lenore and maybe doing something like that.

We'll just like get her out of the wet. You know, it's just like it's all part of the Hobart High Tower agenda, which Otto is constantly feeling in that, and we're going to feel that later. Because you can only imagine how many Ravens a day, Otto is getting from his brother to be like, have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? Is it done yet? Mission accomplished, question mark.

I got the banner printed. Do I get to hang it from like the, you know, the sit-out? Otto had to mute the slack notifications on his DM thread with Hobart. Definitely. And I think you feel that later we get these shots of Otto being like stressed out about how to play the game in this episode because he's feeling so much pressure from his brother. And I think also the idea that the Seelord of Bravo's inclusion here, we talked about this a bit with Chris, but like, The Iron Bank of Bravo is one issue, right? But there's just this long history of the fraught dynamic

between Bravo's and House Targaryen. The fact that, like, the Seleord of Bravo, allegedly, bought three stolen dragon eggs that might make their way to a DeNaris Targaryen later in the story. You know what I mean? The fact that, like, Septim Barth, who was the hand of Jahris, had to go to Bravo's and like negotiate a piece.

So it's like a very shaky, fraught piece between Bravo's and House Targaryen. So Corley sliding in there is, you know, it's going to upset the apple cart. Absolutely. And that bravosy hate toward dragon riders and dragon lords traces back all the way to Old Valeria.

This is a really deeply rooted thing. The other thing that I think is interesting on the House High Tower front, like everything you said about, okay, well, what choice do we have here? Let's maneuver Reneira in this direction. On the one hand, the idea of House Valerian having that kind of alliance with House Targaryen, formalized via marriage is a closeness that would be a threat to House High Tower.

But in this scenario, as you're outlining, it's one that they are orchestrating and controlling, which is preferable to House Valerian, a rival house who you don't want moving even further ahead of you. on the pecking order here aligned with the free city of Bravo? They can't have that. They simply cannot allow that to happen. And it's always that question with Otto, right?

Because like, okay, Reneer is not a great choice as far as Otto's concerned, but she's not David. So we'll take that choice. You know what I mean? So it's always these like questions of choices, the lesser of two evils.

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ready. We're going to what you have aptly dubbed the after after party. It is time to hit the street of silk with Damon and Renera. Now, across the episode, we have a lot of cutting between scenes, between different character sets. We're going to kind of group these. We're going to talk about Damon and Rainer first. We're going to talk about Renair and Kristen, and then we're going to talk about

Fissaris and Allison. We'll talk about Allison, I promise. Absolutely. Absolutely. Joe. Yeah. Your guy, Damon, leaves for Renira. a bag filled with an outfit that I just flat out have and like routinely wear.

This was so funny to me. I also love a slouch beating. I'm a big fan. How did our guy, Damon, because in addition to leaving the page boy outfit, he leaves a map to a secret passageway out the back of her room. She opens it. It's quite loud. Kristen does not hear, not doing a very good job at his post in the front door there. He's tired, Mallory.

I know you're concerned. about his sleep schedule. My friend Jenny was texting me about this a lot. She was just sort of like, because there's a shot later where he's literally falling asleep on his feet. And she's like, what's the rotation here? Kristen went on the whole trip. He's with Reneer all day and then has to stand outside her room all night. When does he get relief?

Anyway. That's just, I don't know. A lot of espresso beans, I guess. If in his dorky helm that is probably blocking his ears, he didn't hear. Rineira. Fair. I will retract to the comment. Damon has left a map to the Sear Passageway. He has been compared many times across the show to make or the cruel by enemies who would seek to tear him down. And yet he's doing it to himself a little bit in this episode. He's like, uh, I should be able to marry multiple people. Now, of course, he's invoking a gun the conqueror. But in the realm, people are going to be more inclined to think of more

recent history. Yeah. That was a real, that was a real Magor move. Definitely. And Joe, who is responsible and most associated with all of the secret passageways in the Red Keep? Little guy named Megor the Cruel who had every single person who constructed the Red Keep murder so that the secrets of the passageways would never be revealed. How did Damon uncover this? I love this detail, though, that he would know this. Totally normal thing. I love that this was, Heated earlier when we saw Damon spying on the small council in an earlier episode. It's just sort of like he's been in the walls, speaking of rats and mice. Like, Damon's been sneaking around.

And he gets that dragon egg. And, like, we didn't get to see exactly how. But the idea that he'd be able to bake his way in and out of the city, in and out of these passageways, in and out of these rooms without detection feels very, very, very of a piece with his character. I do have a follow-up question of, like, why he didn't use those passages to get back the next morning. but we can get to that a second.

Yeah, yeah. You know, Damon's walk of shame back into the front gates was a memorable and questionable moment. For sure. For sure. Into the streets of Kings Landing, we go in our flimsy disguises

that we will chat about more in a few minutes. I thought it was so wonderful to just get out of the Red Keep, to get into the streets of Kings Landing. I think we really need this. It was clear Roneira needed and appreciated it

because for her it's this taste of life. It's a taste of the freedom that she's been craving as she vocalizes many times in this episode. Like, it's dirty, it's public, it's salacious. But all of that is exciting because it's everything that she's been shielded from and deprived of as she is leading this carefully orchestrated and managed existence.

Are you craving more moments like this where we are just out and about with the people of the realm? Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this before, how this is such like an insular story of Targaryens of like royal intrigue. And even though we've gone to like Storms End and we've gone to Driftmark, like just one room of those castles, you know, or, you know, the bridge at Dragonstone. But like I, Thrones is so good at cutting across all the different layers of society that, like,

I really would love to see more of this whole rich world. And I know, I mean, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that it will bear out on the story going forward. But I love, I've always loved this idea of Damon as this like, as the people's prince, like that he just likes to go out in the street and mix it up. You know, not that he is Princess Diana sort of like helping the poor in any way, but he is, you know, he's out there. He's aware he's got his, you know, he understands. They don't call him Lord Fleabottom for nothing.

Yeah, sometimes he's, you know, doing some questionable policing. But, you know, he's hung up his gold cloak. He's not doing that anymore. And I love the many, many parallels to Aria that we get in this episode. I love when Rainira says, like, you know, know, he call me boy. You know, and like, also, both Ari and Reneer, I've had sex with a dashing stormlander, should just be said.

So, yeah, and this is just like a real feast. There's just something going on everywhere you look, and I loved it. The only thing I didn't like about this journey into the streets was the use of the word street rat, because, like, I just, like, I just need to. You to not, it's just a lot, it belongs to Aladdin. It belongs to Aladdin. You can't use it, especially when you're stealing food from someone. It's just not. It's a good note. It's a good note. Do you reject the theater offerings in Kings Landing? You're more of a bravosy, mummer's true. Loyalist. I love the theater. Well, okay. Yeah, if I have to choose between the two,

I'm picking bravos because they like, you know, their plays were also, their production value is a little higher, you know, they had some real performers working for them, like Lady Crane, you know, Richard E. Grant was there. It's like it was a different... It's amazing. A whole different thing that we got. But I think George has used this idea of street performers a few times in his story.

There's like the puppeteers and Dunkin' Egg. There's the various bards that get in trouble. It's this way of exploring the way in which artists, low-born or otherwise, that artists poke at the highest levels of power through their art, which I think is interesting. And then the really shitty authoritarian way most royals respond to, you know, seeing themselves reflected that poorly in the people's eyes, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

And like the Iron Throne in this play is turned into a toilet mid-act, like the commentary. I miss you, Tywin, Lanister. I'll always miss you. I know. It just makes me long for our time with Tywin. the privy. Did Type and Westminster shit, gold? The way, to your point about the response that a person in a position of power

would have to see that, I was fascinated to see how Damon watched Renera watching this. He was genuinely interested, because he's a part of this too. They're talking about Renira, Damon, Agon, all of these would-be heirs. And he is paying attention

to the way that she responds to this kind of rebuke of the masses. And the way that she responds is honestly, like, alarming. She says their wants her of no consequence after he says to her that because she's booing, which is very funny, doing her best, Saw Guerrera, lies deception, lies slander. But he says, you know, for the small folk, like, they would believe that Agon should be heir, which of course she rejects. but it goes so quickly to such an extreme. And on the one hand, she's saying,

I just want to be free of the burdens of my inheritance for one night. I just want one night to not think about this. And so, of course, witnessing this forces her to think about the very thing that she's trying to escape. So there's like the human, okay, that's just the thing you say when you want to go about your night. Fine. But there was something that was harrowing about the way that she said that so easily that the wants of the people were of no consequence. What did you think about that? I mean, I think we're going to come back to that when we talk about what Vassaris talks to her about, you know, once he pulls a knife out of a fire at the end of this episode.

But I think also, again, it reflects her attitude towards all the lords in the realm, too. Like, Reneira, like, every time someone calls her out for her privilege, like, they're right. Reneira has got all the arrogance of a Targaryen. It's shades of Vassaris, not her dad, but Deneres' brother. You know, it's just sort of like, you know, the dragon doesn't like cares not for, you know, this, that, or the other thing. That's sort of like, I hate to put her in that position. I love Reneira, but like she, Damon's right here. Also, he's watching her for that reaction, but he's like, of all the looks he gives her, of all the lemon cake looks he gives her, this is the lemonyist.

Like, this is a real Matt Smith turning up the wadage on the look. you know. Well, we go from there right to quickly a food purveyor and then it's a dash to the street of silk before we reach the pleasure house. Renera runs into Harwin. Yeah. Speaking of lemon cake looks, you know,

like this is the second time that Harwin Strong, we met him in the hunt, has like seen Reneera doing her shit, stabbing boars, running through the streets in a slouch beanie and he's like, yeah, that's, that's pretty good. Pretty into it. Harwin's a captain the gold cloaks, we should just say. Like, Lionel brought his sons to Gordon was like, you get to be a cop and we'll find out.

Laris, you get to eat biscuits. But, yeah, I like, I like this little drop, little drop of Harwin that we get here where he's like, I'm eager for more. I always welcome Harwin. I'm enjoying it. onto my, onto my television screen. They arrive after this brief interlude at a pleasure house

that honestly is putting hero-gasm to shame. There are naked people everywhere. There are people fucking everywhere. And it's all new to Renera who is drinking in the sights. Bodies, moans, connection, pleasure, self-discovery, indulgence. We get this cut to Damon alone, contemplating.

We're going to talk more about his motives, his intentions, what may or may not be on his mind. In that particular shot, before the incest, is he crafting his plan? I think he's deciding whether or not he wants to go through with his plan. And I think, you know, he's like, okay, fuck it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And then later it's like, eh. But I want to talk about that.

What did Chris call it a mural of flesh that we see in the pleasure house here? Yes. And how it compares to some of the stuff that we saw on Thrones. We got this email from a listener. We got actually a lot of emails from listeners about the way that sex annuity was filmed in this episode versus how it was filmed on Thrones. But John wrote, he said it's sex with consequences and character development. And I think that's true, but also just the way that the camera in this episode goes through the pleasure house here.

And I compare it to like moments in Thrones when like sex workers are literally just out on display, like doing acrobatics on display so you can just ogle their flesh. And here it's much more about, as you say, connection and pleasure. You rarely see everyone is touching each other. no one is, like, standing there to be looked at. And I think that's so much more interesting and so much more to the point of what Reneer is supposed to be understanding of this.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Steve, can you give us the sound bite? Because it connects to what Joe is saying here. What is this place? It's where people come to take what they want. The only artist who had to, like, put all the moans together. I was just going to say, I'm going to be honest.

I didn't know we would be able to hear quite that many moans. I was so much. Shut up the ground. Oh, my God. God's being good. But yeah, that's what you're just describing to, right? This, on the one hand, this, this taking what you want, but also this idea of pleasure for all parties

and how distinct that really does feel to much of what we've seen in the Thrones verse before, but also then how formative that would be for Renera in this first sexual experience. It's incest time. It's incest time. Even for the incest veteran Game of Thrones viewing public, I think it's fair to say that many maybe were not quite ready for this. What should we refresh people more broadly here about the Targ views on incest? Okay, so we've talked about it a little bit before because, as we mentioned, there's been a few instances of incest.

Like, Damon didn't invent this, right? Targaryans love incest. It's very important to them. What a sentence. It's true. It's fair. It's true. I hope my parents are proud.

The Targaryans believe that they need to keep their bloodline as targi and pure as possible to maintain their ability as dragon riders. And so when the Targs come to Westrose and conquer Westrose, this is just the norm. Aegon marries is two of his sisters. Right. Not totally fine. It's a two-fer. Okay. Agon Bogo for Agon, right? So I've always loved the description of that that's like, in essence, I'm paraphrasing,

but it's like, one was for duty and one was just because you really wanted to. It's fucking family. Tell me. So that's so, and then as we've discussed before, eventually the church is like, listen, we don't think this is great, incest. Abominations. What if you didn't? Yeah.

And the Targaryans were like, what if it's just us? Doctrine of exceptionalism. This is what Jeharis comes up with. After a lot of combat between kings and the church, Jeharis, the conciliator, is like, doctrine of exceptions. We get to do this because we're a special dragon, princes and princesses. And the blonde is not going to stay blonde if we don't, like, only fuck each other. And the church grudgingly is like, okay, right? So, incest, this is actually totally fine in the Targaryen point of view.

Even the fact that, like, he has been sort of working her a bit since she was a kid, which, like, I've heard the word grooming circled about, yes. And that's not really how it worked in this society. So, you know, as far as this society goes, there are elements of this that are dicey, but it's not the fact that this is an uncle and a niece. So, right. Well, I want to come back to that what actually is offensive about this aspect when we get to Vassaris and Damon later. But I think that's an important note for right here that the incest itself, even for Vassaris, is not the issue.

Yeah. You mentioned some of like the groundwork being laid here. We got a great email from a listener, Jay, or just one of a few where they were talking about like a lot of people watching this show being like, am I supposed to be? be shipping this uncle with his niece. What are the sparks here? Should I be uncomfortable? Whatever. There's this great scene in episode two,

a Dragonstone on the bridge. When Reneer comes up to Damon and she's confronting him and she goes, I'm right here, uncle, the object of your ire. And Jay was like, I thought at the time she said object of desire. Like that's what it almost sounds like when she says it. You don't say object of your ire. You say object of your desire. And Damon looks incredibly.

This is how we thought, the Hall of Lour was the Hall of Law. Oh, we're going to talk about that. Ballard and I cling to our close captioning for Dear Life. But just the way they phrase that, that's like one of many moments where you're just supposed to be like, okay, Rainer and Damon or something there, you know. We normally read like a line, maybe a paragraph from Fire and Blood for context. I think we should read this entire stretch. Oh, my God. And then we can decide after if we want to keep it open to this page.

I think we have to read this in full and then decide how much of it makes the episode. Okay. Okay. We'll start with, Joe, we should just do like a shared dramatic reading where we like alternate paragraphs. I love that. And remember, as context here, we've chatted many times about the unreliable narrators of fire and blood and these competing accounts. So this is fascinating because as we get the definitive view here of what actually happens between Damon and Runera, we have this fire and blood competing accounts as context.

Quote, here's where our sources diverge. Grand Maister Rundsiter says only that the brothers quarreled again and Prince Damon departed Kings Landing to return to the stepstones and his wars. Of the cause of the quarrel, he does not speak. Others assert that it was Queen Alison's urging that Fissarra sent Damon away. Hey, but Sept and Eustace and mushroom tell another tale. Or rather, two such tales, each different from the other. Eustace, the less salacious of the two, writes that Prince Damon seduced his niece, the princess, and claimed her maidenhood.

When the lovers were discovered abed together by Sir Eric Cargile of the king's guard and brought before the king, Renera insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him. King Viseris would not hear of it, however, and reminded his daughter to Prince Damon already had a wife in his wrath. He confined his daughter to her chambers, told his brother to depart, and commanded both of them never to speak of what had happened. The tale is told by mushroom, more depraved.

As is off the case with his testimony. According to the dwarf, it was Sir Kristen Cole that the princess yearned for, not Prince Damon. But Sir Kristen was a true knight, noble and chaste and mindful. of his vows. And though he was in her company day and night and never getting to sleep, that's what Joanna aside, he had never so much as kissed her, nor made any declaration of his love. When he looks at you, he sees the little girl you were, not the woman you've become,

Damon told his niece, but I can teach you how to make him see you as a woman. What happened next, Mallory? Oh, my God. All right. Hide the children, folks. I'm continuing the passage. He began by giving her kissing lessons, if Mushroom can be believed. From there, the prince went on to show his niece how best to touch a man to bring him pleasure,

an exercise that sometimes involved Mushroom himself, and his alleged enormous member. Damon taught the girl to just robe enticingly, suckled at her teats to make them larger and more sensitive, and flew with her on Dragon back to lonely rocks in Blackwater Bay, where they could disport naked all day and observed, and the princess could practice the art of pleasuring a man with her mouth. George! Got therapy.

At night, he would smuggle her from her rooms, dressed as a page boy, and take her secretly to brothels on the street of silk where the princess could observe men and women in the act of love and learn more of these, quote, womanly arts from the harlots of Kingslanding. Do you want me to continue? What do you think?

Yeah, I guess we should. One more. One more. Yeah, keep going. Just how long these lessons continued, Mushroom does not say, but unlike Septin Eustis, he insists that Princess Renera

remain a maiden, for she wished to preserve her innocence as a gift for her beloved. But when at last, she approached her white knight, using all she had learned, Sir Kristen was horrified and spurned her. The whole tale soon came out

in no small part, thanks to Mushroom himself. King Viseris at first refused to believe a word of it until Prince Damon confirmed the tale was true. Give the girl to me, he purportedly told his brother, who else would take her now? Instead, King Viseris sent him into exile, never to return to the seven kingdoms on pain of death.

Okay, so that's a lot. Molly Rubin, when you and I were searching for this exact passage independently, but at the same time this weekend, what search term did you use to find it? I used womanly arts. How about you? Yeah, I went with Suckel. That's how we quickly searched and found the...

This is like the wildest section. Remargable. And also, hey guys, if you're not book readers, read the book. That's what you're missing. That's what you're missing. Sucalympeteets. Okay, Joe.

So that will be important contacts, not only for this scene, but for the later scene with Kristen, for the later conversation between Viss Harris and Damon, et cetera. There's a lot there. What do we actually see happen here? Despite Otto's account later, they don't only couple because Damon cannot. They do begin to kiss in plain view.

Damon is undressing her nera. He is opening her shirt. He's taking down her pants. They're up against a wall. She's turned facing the wall. toward him. Can we talk about the disguises for a second here? Because I think it's crucial when we're trying to parse Damon's motivations or intentions. Is he counting on them being spotted? Because I think at best you could say he knows it's a risk. At worst, you have to deduce that he's planning on it.

Because remember, we know that whether or not he said error for a day, the exploits of that night made their way back to Vassaris. And he knows that. So he must know that what's happening here will make their way back. The disguise is pretty flimsy in the first place. Renira is spotted by Harwin and identified immediately. And then Damon takes off the beanie. The taking off of the beanie. That signature charred hair in full view. There's this question we had on Talk to Thrones. This is before we had the benefit of the after the episode input from the showrunners. But we have this discussion of like, is this Damon's impotency, which we have seen before, a merely an equipment malfunction, or is there something emotional involved here?

And I think it's both because those things are not disconnected. And I think what's really significant in the choreographing of this sequence is when she turns back around. Like, he turns her to the wall. Like, I can power through this if I'm not looking at my niece, who I genuinely care about. But when she turns back around, it's not just her taking some agency. I don't think he's objecting to that. I think he's objecting to having to confront

that who he's doing this to. And that's when he falters. Something I thought that was really interesting about the way that was shot. Fabian Frankel, who plays Kristen Cole, was talking about Claire Kielner, who directed this episode, that one of their inspirations for

the sex scenes in this episode was the show Normal People, which is like one of the best, the worst-morniest shows of all times. So good. So good. But sex scenes in those, show, that show are so great because the camera is always interested in, like, how the character

is feeling. And I think Claire Kilner's camera really captured that in this sequence, and we'll talk about it with Kristen as well, but just sort of like, it's salacious, of course, because it's an uncle and a niece in a pleasure house, but we're also just like hands, like a shot of hands together, like all this sort of stuff. She does that again with Kristen Reneer, the shot of hands together. Like, it's a, it's just shot really, really thoughtfully, I thought. I couldn't agree more. And now I want to go rewatch normal people.

Let's do it. I'm ready. I'm ready. I love that show. So what is your, what is your final line here on Damon's motivation? You know, we hear, you mentioned the inside the episode and getting to hear from the showrunners and Sepachnik says, quote, it's the idea that Damon is. is using Rainira as a way to get to her father.

Ultimately, his impotence in the scene is a reflection of the fact that he knows deep down that what he's doing isn't right. So his attraction, I think we both agree, that his attraction to Renera and hers to him is real and palpable. It is also true that he is using her here

to achieve an end. Yes. Damien. I think he's heard that Renira is on the tour for a husband and he's like, here we go. A, I like her a lot. B, then I get to be king, right? Pesaris is going to have some notes.

We'll come back to that shortly. After Damon abandems her. Just leaves. Leave her. Yeah. Roth. She exits and is spotted by and followed by one of, as we will learn, Masaria's little birds. We'll come back to that.

she returns to the Red Keep, to her chambers, and sexually awakened by this experience with Damon. All horned up, no place to go. Lores Kristen into her chambers. This is a really interesting, I think, difference from the text where, like, as those passages we read described, like, Renier's focus is Kristen,

and Damonism meets that end. This is the complete reverse. Like, Damon is the object of her fascination, and Kristen just, my guy. happens to be very hot and there, you know? So I think they have a connection. But again, I think if Reneira, like if the two of them were standing in front of Reneer,

like there's no question that she would go for Damon. Yeah. Yeah. She is, again, very sexually awakened, turned on. She's feeling a newfound confidence. She's ready to go for what she wants here. This is in stark contrast to Kristen, who, when she first kisses him, says, stop, and then is so visibly and deeply conflicted during this initial seduction, looking at, as she is taking off his armor, holding his white cloak in his hands, this symbol of the vows that he has taken, the oath of chastity that is part of his armor. that is part of his life as a member of the Kingsguard.

And we can feel later in the scene, this mutual attraction. We do hear from Ryan Condal in the inside the episode. He says he's also carried a torch for her. So this attraction is mutual. But Kristen's inner turmoil and conflict over not being able to, not feeling like he is able to deny the Princess Renera of what she wants here,

and that he is then forced to compromise his vow to move forward. And I think it's not just the virtue. So we got, and I cannot stress this enough, so many emails about this. Just, yes, like as a whole flock of ravens landed with the messages about this. I'll read this one from Lizzie, who has a follow-up in the book reader section, like a part two of this email. So part one is this. Kristen's divine right of Dragon King's girl boss is making him, A, break his chastity's vows,

and B, Bona Highborn Princess, and C, bone a woman freshly out of childhood, that is not exactly consensual. The power dynamic here pretty much negates any true consent. So I think we can say in the modern definition of consent, which must be enthusiastic and freely given, despite Kristen's attraction to her, I think we can call it. clearly say that is not past the modern definition of consent. It's just very complicated, and we should just say that, like, Kristen has put in an impossible situation here where it's potentially damned if he does,

damned if he doesn't. Because if he denies the princess, I don't think Renaro would do this to him. But I think if there is an idea that if he denies the princess, she could have him sent away or killed. And if he gets caught doing this with the princess, he could be sent to the wall or killed. And we hear last episode him talk about how this is a station that no coal has ever reached. Like this is a very meaningful thing for him in his life. It's such a thing for him to lose. It's not just the virtue of his vow.

It's like, I've climbed this high. You're putting me in a position where I have to risk that. As much as he's attracted to her, that's a deeply held conflict. I was listening to the History of Westrose podcast, and they were talking. talking about this figure, Lukamore the Lusty Strong, who was in recently, in recent history, discovered on the Kingsguard of having not one, he's like, A, God, the Conqueror, who? Not one, not two. Three secret wives. If you're on the Kingsguard, no wives, no children. And he was discovered by Sir Ryan Redwine, who was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, when the show started. So it's not

that long ago that Lucamore the Lusty Strong was gilded and said. And so, you know, and said, and sent to the wall for breaking his vow. So that's what's on the line here for Kristen. All that's to say. Do I think Renira is thinking about that when she's doing this? Not at all. But that's the through line for this episode for Renira. She's not thinking about the small folks. She's not thinking about the other lords. She's just thinking about what she wants. Do I think that makes her a horrible villain? I don't. I think it makes her a horned up 18-year-old who is not thinking about the consequences of her action. What do you think? I agree completely.

And I think that this, the one thing that I do think that she, whether she's consciously thinking of it in the moment or not, is certainly aware of, is that this would be way more forbidden than what happened with Damon. And when Allison later calls her into the godswood and confronts her,

it felt to me like she was almost relieved when Allison brought up Damon, that she was worried that somebody had discovered what happened with Kristen. That's interesting. That she had been found out for that aspect of it. And I think that that's... So, you know, we're going to talk in a second here about the contrasts between Allison and Reneera in these scenes. But there was a really notable contrast between the Damon Reneera sequence and the Rennira

Kristen sequence, too, in this sense that what's happening with Damon and both of these sequences, this was an incredible episode of television, that we are... fascinated by in every respect and we'll have real bearing on future events for all of these character dynamics. These are really complex scenes and situations. And the Damon sequence is so public and so salacious and deliberately so. And there is this very private, quiet juxtaposition to what is happening with Kristen that I think in some way then heightens the, fear of the consequences that for both of them. Like when he arrives in her chambers the next morning to say that he has a message from the queen, he can't meet her eyes. He is stressed.

My guy is so stressed about what happened. Inside the, okay, so let's just take it inside the bubble of what happened between them. Once Kristen has decided he wants to do this and he's like laughing a little and he's like really into it and he is like he is driving pleasure from it as she is the way that Damon described. So inside that bubble of no consequences. Clutching each other. They're totally entwined, yes. I mean, as far as ways to lose your virginity in Westeros goes, like Reneira, I mean, ladies,

this is not an accurate depiction of losing your virginity. She seemed to finish, A? God, I know. So, like, no, that's not, this is a fantasy. There are dragons, and this is how Reneer was true. But inside that bubble of no consequences, where they're both having a great time, this is a really lovely sequence. And then, yes, and then we see the next morning the consequences of this thing that Reneer has done to Kristen.

But the first view we have of Reneira, it's all smiles. Oh, oh, my God, it's you. Sunshine and lollipops. Yeah. It takes a while for that to dawn for her, whereas it's clearly all he can think about. She's taken Damon's necklace off for, like, the first. time, you know, ever. Anything else on the Rainer Christian front before we get to Allison and Vassaris?

Just again, shout out to Claire Kildner and just shout out to House of the Dragon, which is employing far more women behind the camera in the writer's room. Thrones regrettably had like four episodes ever directed by a woman, Michelle McLaren, who did a great job, but like this is, I'm really glad a woman directed this episode, I'll just say. Absolutely. I thought to it was so interesting to hear from Claire in the inside of the episode about how conscious she was of the number of sexes, just across pop culture that she had grown up watching that all of us have that were directed by men and how seriously she took that. It was, it was really cool to hear from her on that. And she's directing five and nine, too, so I'm really excited that she'll be right.

Nine, I mean, in the long history of Game of Thrones, episode nine. Oh, you're too busy. Okay. Let's chat about Allison and Vassaris as. this supreme and deeply harrowing contrast to everything that these sequences are intercut with on the Reneira front. Because for Reneira, this is this taste of freedom, juxtaposed against what for Allison are the confines of duty and the loneliness and the misery that she's feeling Reneira is discovering closeness, the spark you can feel with another person, sexual

pleasure and awakening. And for Allison, she is so joyless and so trapped. And it's not just in the sex scene. It is throughout the scenes that are intercut. You mentioned the baby, the sequence where she's holding and rocking baby Helena. The look on Allison's face as she is holding that child really, really sticks with us. And you noted this in our prep. Like, you could hear the cries of the baby as Ranira is making her way past that room down the hall. The juxtaposition could not be more keenly felt. Can we talk about the bath for a second, the sponge bath sequence? Because there's a version of this, a version of it somewhere, where this could be sweet.

The fact that Viseras needs her and trusts her, the fact that she is willing to care for him. That is not what I was thinking at all, watching it. she seemed to me so not only lonely, but confined and restrained by the circumstances of this relationship. Yeah. It's also, I think it's really, we've mentioned this a couple times,

but the way in which this showhouse of the dragon is using all of the, like, the staff of the Red Keep, who's witnessing what and when? Who is seeing what, when, where, why? It's really interesting to watch. We get that great shot of the, as the night turns with like all spreading out with their lanterns into various rooms.

But we've got this collection of staff here that like Allison sends away. It also bothers me that that she has to be the one to like not bothers me in the grand context of things. There's more bothersome. But like, Viseris can't ask her. Viseris isn't like, can you do this for me or whatever? She just has to like watch him look at her like plaintively. And then she's like, okay, leave us.

I'll do it. You know, it's just. Absolutely. Oh, serious. Oh, absolutely. We see her alone in her chambers making herself a preparation of a beverage before bed. Sleeping aid? Any theories?

I don't think it's, some people have asked if it's the moon tea that we see again at the end of the episode. I think those, that needs to be carefully prepared by a maister. So I don't think it's just like, yeah. Yeah, so it just seemed like a sleeping sort of tincture to me. That was a very somber. in that little stretch there. And then she is summoned to the King's bedchambers in the middle of the night. The cut that we get here in the episode is Renera saying,

who knows when I'll next taste freedom into this summons. Yeah. And then we get this very upsetting sex scene as we talked about on Talk the Thrones on Sunday night, this overhead camera angle that is not only lingering on and centering on the Saris's back sores, this decay. of the king, but Allison's eyes, her expression, her stillness. I hope for her, the sleeping draft, like, has kicked in, and she's just, like, gone. But he tries to, like, pull her face back.

And, like, I feel a little, a little bad, a little bad for Vassaris in this as well, because, like, Emma really loved Vassaris. Like, he was in a loving marriage, and now he's, like, sleeping with this teenager who, like, visibly does not want to be there. You know what I mean? Like, the shot of his soars and the decay is so tough. We got an email from Mark. We actually have had a few emails about this concept of the Fisher King,

which is a figure from Arthurian legend. But I thought, given the prominence of the back sores in this episode, this might be the moment to talk about it. Mark writes in about the Fisher King, this figure that shows up in a number of different Arthurian. He has wounds that never heal. He has a prophecy of a chosen one to come that he's waiting for, his political impotence and passivity, his dagger as the holy lance of the Fisher King, and because of his injuries,

his lands have become barren. So it's just this figure of just, you know, it's sort of what Damon says to Corley. It's like, my brother was never good at that stuff being king, you know, this like wounded, rotting, impotent, like, um, even though Damon's the impotent one, like, who's, you know, King's Landing is turning to chaos under his incompetent rule.

We learned that a couple episodes ago. So, yeah, I want to keep my eye on that one. Oh, that's a great call out from Mark and everybody else who emailed about that. Yeah, this was a sequence in an episode rich with symbols. And, again, to feel the moment earlier in the episode with the conversation between Allison and Renera in this sequence, that Allison is this airmaker now who is trapped in this castle in this life that she does not want.

Anything else that you wanted to say about the cuts between these sequences or the sequence in general? I know you wanted to call out the rat that we got at the end. Yeah, of course. I always want to talk about the depotted rat. We get a rat on the top of the bed frame when Allison's lying in bed, but also we see a mouse. I think it's a, I mean, I think I can tell the difference between a mouse and rat. I think we see a mouse when Rainera is sneaking out in the first place.

But also I want to talk about, so like, this just occurred to me like the third time I was watching poor Allison pinned under Vassaris is like. And the fact that Reneera, when like she finishes with Kristen, that she's on top of him. And I feel like there's just sort of, it's much more pleasant. But I think there's this sort of parallel of, like, between Alicent and Kristen, both compelled to do something because their monarch asks them to one too much more pleasurable ends than the other. And then Vassaris and Reneer as the dragons who demand, who take something, you know what I mean? And, like, are literally on top of the people that they have, you know, asked to required this from, you know. Damon, meanwhile, is in a bale of straw on the ground. He is a mess.

An absolute mess. According to Misario who makes her triumph and returned, he is lucky to be in that bail, like that she rescued him from possibly worse. He needs to pay for that room on the way out. Damn it. That little bird who spotted or Nira and spilled to Otto, we learned that he is from the white worm.

Masaria, this new mistress of whisperers, as you have noted, there is not. Anybody formally in that role right now on Viseras' small counsel, so it's really fun to get this little bird role in the story in this capacity here. And later, in the scene between Viseras and Otto, when Vesaris is challenging the veracity of this information, Otto says that this source has, quote, never led me astray. So this relationship between Masaria and Otto is, long running, we can glean. And the question is, like, we know she was there for the alleged error,

air further day incident. So was Masaria the source even back then for Otto on that? I love this as a theory corner. Like, how long was she? Possibly. Was she feeding information? This is a great one. She tells Damon when he wakes up that she's left these skin trade behind.

This is the new hustle. Again, how new is it really? That's a fun thing for us to kind of attempt to parse as we go. do you think that this is the first interaction between Damon and Masaria since she departed Dragonstone? Listen, unless we're going to find out that there were some cutscenes between them,

I think so. That's what it feels like to me. That she was like, that she was so ticked off at him that she just left Dragonstone and hasn't talked to him since. That was my read on it too. And I was struck because she's saying,

oh, he's like, am I your prisoner? I'm your protector. But she says to him, Hard lessons are not welcomed but suffered. And I'm curious if you took that as sage counsel, helpful advice from a pal, or a threat. Because you could read that as a word of real warning or an attempt to guide or both. Interesting. I mean, honestly, I feel like the theme of this episode, maybe this entire series is both.

Yeah. We can mean multiple things at once, you know. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, that does segue nicely into Otto and this reveal and this decision that he makes because he is grappling with and weighing the potential consequences of imparting this information to the king. You called out on our Sunday pod. I mean, this episode again, the whole season so far has been wonderfully acted. You call it out specifically this great facial acting from

Risa Fonz in this moment with the camera lingering above and we can feel the gravity of the choice that he had to make. I'm like waiting for the moment where we get his version of Theon saying, and I chose wrong. He brings... But Welshier, yeah. He brings this information to Vassaris, hanging out in his nightgown. Allison is eavesdropping, listening, as we will later learn across this scene. Break down for us what Otto shares with Vassaris and how Viseras is processing this in real time. What part is he actually balking out? What part is he actually balking out? What part as you're like, yeah, that's fine. No problem for Rainier to be in the pleasure house.

What of it? You know, that's not an issue. Good old demons involved, though. That's a problem. And he needs to know specifically the who, what, where, when's why? So why ask me, why don't we hear from the men themselves, Steve? What behaviors? What must I say in your grace?

You enter my bedchamber, accusing my daughter of something. I speak it plainly Damon and Grenier were seen together in the bowels of a pleasure den coupling really iconic moment

these two are so great together the thing that you can't hear on the clip is that in that pause before the long pause and come on you gotta say it you're gonna come in here

you gotta say it this was just amazing so good also his choice to say in the bowels of a pleasure dead. Not just the, not just the regular. No, no, no, no, no.

Arias. The bowels of the pleasure dead. Where the real freaky shit is happening. Tell me. I was surprised you waited that long, actually. I know, God. One of the things that I loved about this is that, though Viceris insists this is a lie,

I'll bring him to me, I'll take out his eyes. As we'll see you later, he is pretty ready to admit that this is at least in part true. Like this is something that he can believe is true. He pushes back against it, but it's something that he thinks that his brother is capable of and something as interestingly that he thinks Reniro would do.

But again, it's just sort of like a, I can talk shit on my brother, you can't. You know what I mean? And the contrast between we'll get to it. But like when he does confront, I mean, it's still in the stupid throne room rather than a more private room. But, like, when he confronts him in contrast to the first scene, like, they are alone. You know what I mean?

So it's just sort of like, you auto is the king, you're talking shit about, that's my brother. You know, and it reminds me of Damon and Corley's being like, all right, I can talk shit on my brother, but you're not allowed to. It's the king. Okay. We'll build toward the ultimate decisive ouster on the auto front in a subsequent scene. but it's important to note that here, just organically receiving this information,

Viseras really pushes back not only at the substance of what Otto was saying, but that the gall that he would have to say it, he says, are you so sick with ambition that you would have my daughter stalked, spied upon? You think yourself a cunning man, he says later? And these are serious things to say. These are serious charges to levy against his hand before Reneira issues her ultimatum

and asks him to dismiss the vulture. on his throne. And we can remember how in episode three, he balked it, the Agon pitch that Otto made and pushed back on that fucking politicking, as he put it. And even though he refuted everything that Damon said to him about Otto in episode one, but slowly, slowly this awareness builds over time. And it's part of what made that final confrontation between them so powerful. I know we're going to talk about Allison here in a second,

but I really think that moment with Allison is not a part of it. Like, I think the, like, complete disconnect that Allison has with him in that sex scene is just sort of like, this girl does not want to be here. She's never into me in the first place. So why was she constantly coming to my chambers? Oh, her dad, you know? So I think that's all connected. Well, Joe, take us right from that into this confrontation between Allison and Reniro when she has her summoned after hearing this exchange between Otto and Vinson. has Reneer brought again to the godswood.

You've noted throughout our pods how we should be tracking Allison's piety. And I really felt that that was really top of mind in this sequence because there is, at least for me, there was a real like real sense of judgment. And like she would actually be appalled by this. But I'm curious if you agree and in general what you made of the way that Allison approached Renera. And of course, Ranera's response.

Unlike the party we saw before, like this scene definitely makes sense to have in the godswood to remind us of Allison's religious fealty. And their history together and their friendship, because that was a place that they would sit together and read and talk, yeah. I think so, absolutely.

I think, again, there's so much going on here. Because I think there is, I think there's judgment. I think there's jealousy. I think there's a bunch of different things going on. We got this great email from Olivia. For Allison, sex is at best a mundane duty, and at worst, a routine horror in her life.

It must have been so confusing for her to spend the morning trying to process that her childhood friend would engage in sex willingly, that she could like it. I think it betrayed a kind of innocence that runs counter to the controlled and sometimes cunning queen we're seeing her become. It made me appreciate even more that these early episodes are giving us time with these characters as girls, watching them navigate the transition into womanhood and how it's weaponized against them. So when Damon says earlier to Reneira in the bowels of the pleasure dead,

like, um, that sex can be as pleasurable for a woman as it is for a man, this is like a trope you see in a bunch of different like medieval set or fantasy set places where it's like this idea that like at that time women saw sex as a duty, like, you know, This is like, this is just so that you can pop out babies and you're not supposed to take pleasure. And Damon's like, hey, I'm a liberated, progressive guy. I'm from Fleet Bottom. I get it. Like, so, but Allison never got to put on a slouch beanie and tour the brothels with Damon.

So she doesn't know that sex can be an enjoyable thing. So she's just like, what is going on in the House of Commons? Like, what is happening here? I think it's a great point. I really agree, and it heightens the tragedy of this fissure, especially so close to seeing them make their way back toward each other at the beginning of the episode and feeling that hope rekindled because the fact that Reneira feels so instantly on her heels here and like she has to lie, has to cover, could not even consider telling the truth to the person who,

from everything we've been able to see was her closest friend for the bulk of her life. the fact that Allison doesn't have that perspective and that personal experience, when the way that she says, continue in a brothel, like, there's like real horror in her voice. Poor babe, you know. It is sad. And, like, she talks about how it was foolish for Renira to put herself in a situation, quote, where your virtue could even come into question. And for Reneira... Them blaming shit, yeah, sure. Totally, yeah.

That was like part of what I found so upsetting about the scene because you just want to say, oh my God, like the two of you support each other, find your way back fully to seeing things the same way. But like, in a way for Reneira, maybe she's not thinking about it consciously, but in a way it's like almost part of the point is to be able to reclaim and full her agency

and say like nobody else gets to tell me how to live my life and what my reputation in the eyes of the lords of the land, like can't be the most important thing. I just refuse to live my life that way. But for Allison, that has been the reality of her experience. And for her to to confront that there could be another way, it's this like really kind of seismic thing.

And I think also like, you know, as maybe naive as this may seem, I also had envisioned for her that her life of Vassaris as unpleasant as it must be to the open source. Patty Constan, he's a very handsome man, so it's not him. It's the source and the wig, let's be real. But like, how unpleasant that must be. But I was like, but at least he's so much nicer to her than Otto is.

But we get that moment earlier that we pointed out where he was like really shitty to her. And so I was like, oh, he's not even like a nice man that you're married to. Like, that's tough. But like, Reneira in response. And this is when I was, this is when I like did the watching a horror movie thing where you're like, don't go down the stairs. Like, Reneer starts lying unnecessarily. Okay. So what is going on with this?

With her reply. Like, why does she say Damon never touched me when she could have really easily said, we did not have sex? Like, Damon did not take my virginity. That is true. She could have said that. Why did she say, Damon never touched me? That's a lie. Why does she say, I swear this to you upon the memory of my memory.

My mother. This was shocking. That was shocking. Yeah. That was shocking and upsetting. I think that part of it... Like, some lies, I understand here. Like, you know, we talked about this a little bit on Talk of Thrones and I'm like,

come around on that, but like the extreme of her lies and the like being so affronted when you're like, Marinera... It's this fascinating mix because I do think on the one hand she felt so... Like, it was not a safe space to consider sharing the truth because of the... that judgment that she felt from Allison initially. And learning in the scene that it was Otto, who was the source of the information. This is what I was going to say next.

Exactly. Because I think that that dynamic of her shifting, like the line about her mom shocked me. I was then fascinated, though, by how quickly she turned to sleuthing, to seeking out information. Wait, who? When?

Where? How? Who wants to harm her? Who is seeking to take her down? she's playing the game. She's playing the game of Thrones. And that part, as horrifying as the mom line was, I kind of liked.

Because it's like, okay, if someone's coming for you, figure out who, how, and why, and get them first. Well, she's playing, but Allison's also playing, right? Because she hears this thing. Like, overhearing is part of the game. But, like, she goes directly to Rainira. And it's like, let's, let me interrogate you directly. like that's part of the game as well.

And also this idea of finding your power. We talked about that a lot with Allison last week in terms of finding her in avenues of power in her influence over the king. And we see her again influencing Viseris, like very shortly here. But Reneira is also in this episode finding her power.

That's not just stabbing bores in a wood. Like how do I move through these people with power? And in some cases, it's putting Sir Kristen Cole in an extremely compromising position because of just your wants. And in some cases, it's lying wildly and unnecessary to your friends. And then in other cases later, it's getting the hand of the king booted out of the kingdom. You know, so it's interesting. I think that's such a great point about agency and when you claim it and when you recognize that it's there for you. because I was really like,

the Allison's conversation with Vassaris where they debrief actually comes after this scene and Damon and Vassaris. But if we kind of account for it here, Allison leaves this conversation with Reneira defending her, defending her to Vassaris,

saying that she swore to her that she was a maiden and that she believes her that Damon is the one they have reason to distrust, not Ranira. But what else does she say to Viserra? She says, only because Damon tried to corrupt her. And that made me really sad because she is still in this place in her life

where people do things to you. And to see her break through that in these episodes is I think such a crucial part of her arc to work toward, don't let these people do these things to you. And even though she and Renera are kind of like opposed in that respect here, I think that that's a goal

that they both share, even if they can't quite, like, think about that clearly or discuss it clearly with each other here. And, like, again, it just made this all so sad because you have that brief return to intimacy and then this fissure and new. We've watched Allison defend Renera again and again in places that Reneera can't see, but we've seen them. We've seen Allison say she would make a good queen, like all this sort of stuff. And so, you know, in terms of, like, how much is Allison plotting here to maneuver Egon. Like, I really feel like, even still,

she's not. Like, she's like, get Damon out of here. But, like, Reneira says this, and I believe her. Yes, absolutely. So let's chat about Fasaris

exiling Damon. Back to the veil. Our guy can't go more than half an episode without being banished. Just an incredible run from the rogue prince. Horribly hungover,

making his way back to the throne room to suffer Vassaris's wrath. Another secret. in the throne room. These very striking visuals, Damon can't even stand. He's dropped, it's deposited on the floor

by the Kingsguard, doesn't even try to stand up. The Sarah's looming over him. Who hasn't? That cool stone on your cheek feels great. This stone must have felt so good. It's probably better in the bathroom tile, which is what I'm more familiar with.

Oh my God, dude. I bet it felt great. The Saris looming over him and then the Iron Throne looming over them both, that camera placement behind the throne, all of those barbs, this symbol of house Targaryens might. And we get this other really fascinating symbol deployment in the scene, the dagger that will come into play in the next scene we talk about, the Sarah's putting this symbol of the purpose but burden of their house against the throat

of the person that he views right now in this moment as such a threat to its future. very rich symbol there. I love that. I think it's so, like, trying to parse what exactly Viseris is mad about is so interesting to me because, like... Not the incest again. Yeah, so it's not the incest,

but I think partially, and it's not, it's not even maybe just that Reneer needs to be a virgin for marriage or whatever, which should be a true thing for an heir to the throne of princess, etc. Part of it is this thing that keeps coming up,

which is, Damon, you're already, married. And like, we, we Targaryians have gotten a doctrine of exceptionalism for incest, but not for polygamy. And that was a big thing that, like, Magor fought the faith about, right? And Vassar is so war-averse, so worried constantly about war, the shadow of Magor looming over him, is just like, we cannot do this. Right. Don't invite this challenge. Right. Exactly. And also politically, it's like, Damon's point is if Reneer and I are aligned, we, and I feel like he means all three of us, can bring the House of the Dragon back to its primacy, right? But Viseris is being counseled that we need a political match here because he's really worried about Reneer being rejected. And he's like, you got to shore up some allies.

Meanwhile, Reneer is touring the Seven Kingdoms pissing everyone off. but he's like, you have to shore up some allies. Let's find you a husband that will get you some built-in support. Damon's not going to be that political alliance for her. Like, that's not going to get the other lords excited. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think there's also just this element of insult, like, that Viseras feels

disrespected that Damon wouldn't come to him first and say, let me run this by you. What do you think? That Damon is such a rogue and such an agent of chaos that he's like, he introduces too many variables. And what do we know about Viseris? He is not a character who can contend with variables. He's not. And so when he says to him,

you're no conqueror, you're a plague set to destroy me. I think that's a fear that he actually really feels. This is a threat, period. And I think that's like, it's an interesting thing in contrast to Damon. He speaks with such certainty. Like, he's in this really pathetic state.

He has used for Nira for his ends. All of that is foul. That's bad. But there's a weird element here where when he talks, you kind of can't help but think that, like, he understands better than Vassaris what it means to be a Targaryen ruler. Like when he says, who gives a fuck what some lords think? You are the dragon. Your word is truth and law. Now, tyrannical, fascist alarming, but also, like, that's kind of what you would expect to hear from Vassaris.

And it's so powerful that Matt Smith's choice in this performance where often he doesn't even, like, lift his head from the ground or turn it. And it's just like delivering these lines flat out on the ground and it still has more authority. Also, I think it's extremely notable that, again, Damon doesn't deny something he's accused of. And this time we know we didn't do. Big for you as an heir for a day truth or jail. Right? This is like a reflection. This is a mirror to the earlier scene where auto accuses Damon of doing something.

We didn't see it. And Damon doesn't deny it. He doesn't deny it, but he doesn't say he did it. He just sort of takes Vesaris lashing out on him in the throne room. Same exact things happens here, except this time we know that he didn't, you know, you might have done some stuff, but he didn't go all the way with Reneer. His guilt took over. His better angels prevailed in the bowels of the pleasure done, you know?

And so it's like when Viseras says, still you say nothing and he says, oh, what does it matter, brother, you know? And it's just sort of like not bothering to deny. Now, first of all, on the one hand, that helps his case. like, well, marry her to me. Who else will take her sort of thing? Of course. But also, again, it's like this, like, you know, that expression, the old English

expression might as well be hanging for a sheep as a lamb. Like, if you're going to get caught for something, might as well get caught for the whole thing and see where you go from there. And I just, I think that's so fascinating that Damon doesn't defend himself. It reminds me for Nira not, like, grabbing the white stag and taking it back. It's just sort of like, they're not going to believe in me. fuck them, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do the thing that, you know. Yeah, absolutely.

And like, Vseris will mention perception in his argument with Reneira later, which of course makes us think of one of our favorite Varus lines and power residing where a man believer resides, but this idea of perception is really palpable in the episode two. And it's a, it's manifesting in a few ways with Damon the way you just described. But, like, also he is actively trying to use it to his advantage, even as he feels that despair in the face of it. And that contradiction inside of him is why he's such a compelling character. So like when he's, when Vesera says, of course, it's not my daughter you're lost for,

is it? It's my throne. Do you think that's true? I think it's both. And I think his lust slash genuine affection for Reneura is the reason, you know, as we mentioned, is the reason he doesn't go through with his plan that is predicated on his lust for the throne. It's these two things are doing battle inside of it.

of him, you know. When in the first episode, when he was watching through the people as they talked about whether they debated in the council whether he wanted the throne. Right. Like the look on his face when Vassaris basically says that's, he's not interested in that. And of course, this is then a change here in Vassaros's perspective. I kind of felt in the moment in episode one, like Viseras was the one person who had the measure of Damon accurately, you know?

And David gives his little smile where he's like, yeah, my brother knows me. He gets it. Yeah. And so like it would be like a really tragic thing here. for him to feel that even for Miseris that had shifted. Well, so every time Vassaris hauls him into this throne room and is like, did you do this deeply shitty thing? He's like, I'm not, you don't get me, man,

and I'm not even going to bother to defend myself. And if I've lost that, then what's the point of any of it? And for a day, truthers, unite. All right. When Miseris confronts Ramira, he does it with the aid of a prop. Now I love merch, I loved this.

We don't have a ton of time left to talk about the dagger and the prophecy of it all, but obviously this is something that we've discussed at length already. I was really, I briefly mentioned this on Talk to Thrones. I was really interested in just how, like, visible that was to anybody. I know, you were convinced, like, after you said, so you were convinced that Chris and Cole saw this and clocked it and has that information for later. I rewatched, knowing that you felt that. I rewatched the scene, like a Zapruder film, a couple different times.

times or rewounded again and again. We see him looking in, but to me it seems like he's looking more at Reneira and like a fear that she's been called in there and that he's going to be called out for what he did with Reneira. I don't feel like I saw clearly a sight line where it's like we're supposed to notice Kristen noticing the dagger. That being said, suspicious minds as you accuse me of on our Rings of Power podcast, I'm happy to, I'm happy to run with you and your suspicious minds here.

I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I'm sorry. But it's also all just kind of part of my larger Vassaris. We have some notes, the list of bullet points, because it's like, what are you doing? This is this massive secret that you have to reveal in the premiere in front of Balearion's soul. Once again, the bowels, a different bowel this time.

He brings her here to chastise her for focusing on the wrong thing. And I'm kind of like, dude, you don't get to lecture your kid on work-life balance when you waited four and a half years to reveal this really seismic, crucial aspect of this world-saving, burden, and prophecy that you all have inherited. Show her the blade, go all one ring, and reveal the inscription right away. Why did he wait all this time for this? This is of a piece with the fact that he's not properly counseling her. and teaching her how to lead. But then judging her actively when she fails to. I couldn't agree with you more. Anything about the reveal itself, how this has passed down? It was clarifying to learn this.

A little lore, a little hint of lore. Again, we're running along. But like, Anar the exile, who is the first Targaryen we're aware of, is the Targaryen who led the Targaryens over to Westerners. A dad who listened to his daughter. by the way. Oh, love that comparison. My question for you, Mallory Rubin, is are we going to see this damn dagger in every single spinoff show, including up to an including a Duma Valeria story? It's a great question. I was curious to ask you how often you thought we would get a moment like this

in House of the Dragon. Like, are we going to have every three or four episodes, some sort of new lore download on the Prince of Promise Front, which I would support. But I'm curious to see what the blend is. Actually, I have to save my answer for the book reader section. Let's, let's carry on. Okay. It was fun to think about whether this was maybe the scroll, the scroll that Ragar had discovered that changed everything for him. Oops, dropped his dagger into the fire.

Using it, maybe needed it like to make s'mores and then it all lighted and revealed the hilarious secret message from the fireomancers. A cheese toasty on the dragon bone dagger? Oh, boy. Anything else on the dagger scene here? before we hit the auto conclusion. I don't think so,

but I just really love this for Roanera that she is like that she is playing the game again, as we mentioned with Allison. Right, because he says here, you have to marry Sir Lainor. And she's like, cool,

here's my chip then. Right. Fire auto. Kill Claudia. Get rid of him. Yeah. And so he does. And again, as we noted,

this had been mounting for Vassaris himself. this was, I thought, an amazing scene, really powerful. Loved it. This incredible mix of like guilt and gratitude from Vassaris. I think he feels it keenly when he says you were the man that taught me how to be king. And this dawning, growing recognition of the way that Otto has worked toward his own aims when he says, I will never recover from Emma's death.

But Allison, she took me through the worst of my grief. She was a calculated distraction. I only now realize how well calculated it was. You feel so keenly there that Vassaris is a king defined by his inner turmoil and his inner conflict. And this was just an incredible scene pulling in Bailon, the Spring Prince, that history. Loved this. I love the parallel we get between Otto and Kristen. The two people with the most conflicted faces in this episode are Otto as he's deciding to go to Vassaris in the first place with this.

And Kristen, when he's like she won't. give me the helm back and I can't get out of this room. What am I going to do? I really want to sleep with it, though. Um, like all of that, but that again puts Reneer, we have so many Reneer and Daemon parallels. But again, that puts Reneer and Vesaris in the same, you know, the king and his air and the no-win situations. Because Otto is, to a certain respect, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't hear, too, because like, damned if he does, obviously, if he tells Viseris what happened with Reneira. But if Otto finds out that Viseris finds out that Otto knew and didn't tell him, damned if he doesn't, you know, and so I also got to think that this is going to be a, you know,

if Otto leaves the castle, which he doesn't have to because he's still father of the queen, but if he leaves the castle, what is Hobart going to say when he gets back to Hightower? He's going to be pissed. And what is Allison going to do? I am so curious to see how, Alicent conducts herself if her father is not there, haunting her every step, directing her in every conversation. I think that's going to be really, really interesting. The concluding note to the episode is not that, though. No.

Joanna, how does this episode end? Okay, so Mellos brings... So, clearly Viseris does not believe Reneira, because he sends this T over. Or if he's like, whether or not you're lying to me, let's take this cautionary step. Or it's a test. Or it's a test.

Moon Tea, it's so interesting because I kind of just assumed that Moon Tea was like a well-known thing in the Thrones fandom, but I was going back and looking and like they don't mention it in, at least not memorably, in the TV series Game of Thrones. But it's a thing in the book, like Lysa talks about how she's forced to take Mooney or whatever. But this is, you know, something you do. It's either preventative or it's, it's, Plan B or Plan T as our pal, Jason called it, or, you know, induces a miscarriage. We got this email from listener, Liz, who says, I've been thinking a lot about that final

shot of the T sent by the king in the weight it carries. It implies that Vesaris doesn't believe Reneira, and now she's in the position where if she takes it, it could come across as an admission of guilt to fornicating with Damon, which she didn't. If she doesn't take it, it could bolster her innocence in the eyes of her father, but then she risks becoming pregnant from her night with Sir Kristen. If people find out about what he would be... No, I'm going to say this again.

Cut that, Steve. If people find out about that, Kristen would be at best fired and sent away and at worst kill. Both choices come with their own domino effect of consequences, and it shows the unbalance of their world that she has to worry about this in a way that the men don't. And crucially, we don't see what decision she makes here. Right. Right. And this is, I mean, there's precedent in the story for this, like when Circe finds out that

Marjorie has been consuming... Mooney in the song of ice and fire and knows that that and can deduce from that that Marjorie is sleeping with other people is is being unfaithful to Taman at that point and seeks to punish her immediately so this information does travel

this information does get back and it does feel almost like an active test for Runira to reveal her hand there from the Saras which is really foul and on that note it's time for our episode awards Whig watch. Best and worst.

I'm giving it to the same person. Oh. Best and worst. David Targaryen, Matt Smith. In some angles, it's the best and in some angles is the worst. But I loved it being here. How about you? Damon's new hair is my best wig.

And Viseras's wig is the worst. I do enjoy how they are really, we're moving through time thanks to the receding hair line on the wig changing week after week. I appreciate that. Suttly plucking it back. Yeah, yeah. It's a tough one overall.

It really is. Fit watch. Best worst fit? Yeah. Best has to be when Reneer is sailing back from her disastrous tour and she's on the ship, she's got this really beautiful coat that she has over her dress that I really loved. So that's my best fit. Worst has to be the slouch beanie.

It's a jarringly modern in this well-cost. Show. Shocking. That also is my worst. It was just, I'm like, this is what everybody wears right now. I don't understand. My best is Damon's return drip. I just loved it.

What a fashion statement. He really, he really came to flex. Swagger. And he did. So much swagger. Full swag. Next. Yeah.

Oh, they got bigger? Bigger? Best bit of Dragon Dumb. Not too many choices this week. A Dragon Light episode. Dragon iconography everywhere. but Dragon Light. I'm trying to find what it is that Chris Ryan text us

about buzzing the tower. Anyway, to our, I mean, like, what other option do we have? But Coraxi's buzzing the ship. Yeah, it's the little, little tail whip from Caraxies there. Just the tip of the tail.

What? No shortage of choices for the next award, however. The Doctrine of Exceptionally Weird Sex Step. I disagree. It's just it's uncle fucking. What else can it be? I don't know. What are you choosing here?

Of course it's Damon and Renera, the pleasure. I'll say within this, I just want to call out one thing, which is Reneira yelling, Damon, when he leaves. Not that anybody who was there didn't know it was them. We see how many people are looking at them, but like, yeah, guys, let's workshop this a little bit in advance. Come on. Yeah. Five. If this show had Netflix subtitles.

I couldn't limit myself this week. It was almost impossible to pick one. I've had real clear contenders the last couple of weeks, but I had a hard time this time. What did you go with? No, I want to hear yours. Tell me yours. Okay, I have a top three for you.

You can pick my winner. Yeah. Member shrinks guiltily. Oh, God. Sponge dabs moistly. You know, you love a moistly on a Netflix subtitle. Yeah. Sores gape juicely.

Tell me. Okay, so mine is less visceral, but I just, it's Viceris grunts wearily. Because it was just sort of like part of the juicy gaping sores scene, you know. Anyway. I just like actually shuddered. Archbastery bros can never. Best quote. Yeah.

You already said my quote earlier, but I'm going to do it again. continue in a brothel. Oh, God, it's a great one. Mine was featured in the teaser after episode three, four, episode four, and I love a trailer, but I wish I hadn't heard the line there because it was so iconic inside of the episode. So I can be a remedy for your political headaches?

You are! War was easier than daughters, right, Vassaris? Okay. Honestly incredible. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. Normally we end on, I ask your favor who won the episode, but we have a new debuting award at number eight.

So this is seven today. Who won the episode for you? I think I'm just going to keep doing this split, which is a character and an actor. Often they're different. So character Reneira, I guess, she gets auto fired, which is going to make her happy. And yeah, she's got to marry a guy. But, like, I think she's figured out now that that doesn't mean she has to only fuck that guy for the rest of her life. performance, I'm going to give it to Risi Fonz.

Reesie Fons is Otto. I'm with you on both. That's my MVP. Sam. Joe, we have a new award debuting. We've been promising it for weeks, and it's finally your moment. Let me just zoom back to that really quickly. What I heard from a lot of people was surprised that they were sympathetic to Otto.

And I think that that is just like really chalked that up to a great performance because we've seen Otto do such slimy things. But for us to feel sad for him at all when he's fired. here, you know, it's good stuff. All right. Okay, new award. It's time to last. I've been waiting for this moment.

My most reliable narrator tracker, official debut. This will be here to stay now, I think. Yeah. As you mentioned several times, there are many different sources in Fire and Blood. And we'll be interested to see whose account the show follows as it goes forward. the clear winner this week, and we'll stay the winner until he is contradicted, is Mushroom. Our guy. That little creep mushroom.

Oh, my God. What a moment for Mushroom. I'll just say that my prediction is that Mushroom's going to have the most accurate account at the end of this. HBO would prefer that to be the case for their salacious content. Oh, so good. Mushroom. Welcome to Making the Eight, man. You're going to love it here.

Faceless Manwatch. Oh, my God. I'm, like, head down laughing every time I hear that. Oh, my God. So good. And it's almost better than Mallory's strangle dragon cries. Just imagining Steve at his desk, just going faceless into a microphone. All right, faceless man watch.

We do this every week. It's, like, who is hiding behind what face in the show? I want to give it to the eyeless, like, seer that we see in the street, the fortune teller. Is that yours? No, but I love that. It's a fucking great one.

I'm going with Bormon Barathean. Just didn't try very hard to stop the Blackwood Bracken dole. He was like, oh, come on, you twatts. I'm like, I don't know. Did you want someone to offer up a life? Sheat that steal, you twats. That's what he says. I love that.

Great stuff from my very best friend and bang, pal, Borman Barathean. All right. Joe, before the book look-ahead section, you have a little special treat for us. Just a shorty little interview from Claire Nia Richards, who is the set decorator on House of the Dragon. We, okay, I just want to make it really clear. Mallory Rubin has been on the dragon orgy stuff on the wall beat since the first episode. You go back and listen to the tape.

Mallory has been talking about it. And I feel like a couple weeks in, a bunch of people are like, hey, why isn't it doing talking about that? I just want to be like, Mallory has been talking about the drag. Okay, but on the walls of the Red Keep are all these dragon orgy scenes. So many. So many. I got to talk to Claire about these. They're not actually tapestries.

Fun fact, let's hear what Faseres thinks about looking at tapestries. Would you like to see the tapestry? He has no interest in such things. They're murals. They're painted onto the wall. So we will talk about that. And I actually have a theory about that, which we'll get into in the book reader section. But we're going to talk about murals.

We're going to talk about murals. We're going to talk about beds. We're going to talk about small balls. We're going to talk about light sources, which I thought was really interesting. And fun fact, you might have seen it in the trailer for the season. She talked a bit about the painted table, which we haven't seen yet. It is upcoming. But you can see it in the trailer.

and it looks, she has some really interesting things to say about that. So let's hear from Claire. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I wanted to start by asking you something I've been so curious about, which is when you do a show like this, which is set so many years before a show a world we're very familiar with, how you, in your capacity, straddle the line between something that looks familiar to us, but something that also looks new to us. Well, it's an interesting question. I think for myself personally, I wanted to take it to a slightly different level because we'd all talked about it, having more of a buoyant look, very much more opulent and a bit more sophisticated,

and going back almost to the Roman times where there was a lot of fabric, there was beautiful furniture, and I wanted to research back to that point to see if I could bring our world into something that related a bit to that in terms of the splendor, I suppose. So it was trying to keep it in keeping with the Game of Thrones, but putting our own edge to that and trying to create furniture and spaces that we're going to have something a little bit new to it. Something that the showrunners, the directors have said on this show is that they wanted to have

the resources of light on this show, the sun, the moon, and fire, which I imagine creates a lot of difficulty for you when it comes to lighting these sets. So how does that parlay into work for you? Well, I love the idea of fire. And I was at the beginning, I was trying to avoid doing too many candles, but obviously that just doesn't happen. So I did start off with fire in mind and quite a few of the wool sconces and the chandelabras or chandeliers are all used. with fire, which was really, really fun. But obviously you have to get the set,

fireproofed in many areas to make that happen. And for it to sort of go how you want it to, when we were in the small council chamber, there are two massive, huge ceiling candelabas that are on fire. And I think the actors were kind of like sweating most of the time and saying, look, we need to turn these down. But the DOP luckily really liked to use them.

Some of them did, some of them didn't. So I think we have benefited from seeing them on and off during the episodes, which has been amazing, really amazing. It was fun. Those are so extraordinary. They're so extraordinary. I thought they were CG, those giant ceiling fixtures in the small council. Those are real. Oh, my God.

Incredible. The process of researching and putting lots of ideas together and designs and creating those in terms of the spaces was really fun to do. but obviously the guys that were making them were kind of, really? They're so big and heavy and they've got to have fire come out of them. Right. Special effects had to, you know, rig them up to make sure that they were, somehow, you know, health and safety, importantly, but just to make them look fantastic.

So it was a whole collaboration of everybody getting involved, you know, before seeing them up there lit, which was great. Speaking of candles, you've got a couple really dramatic. of them around the giant dragon skull and then in the sept those beautiful like there's all the melted drippy wax what what i mean what is that process like between takes how do we how do we keep candle continuity like what is what does that look like so we have thousands of candles and that effect that you're talking about we used in a number of different areas within the sets which was really effective and i think that to try and get that to look as realistic as

possible. We had to start with a layer that did have a little bit of moulding so you could you could have some sort of layered detail of the wax on top of each other. And then the front edges of the candles were mainly real. And then the odd occasion, there'd be some of the battery lit behind. But it worked so much better with real candles. And the guys would just have a whole chance to light them all. And then they'd do a take and then they'd have to do it all over again. So yeah, it was a huge mission, but I think it was really, really effective. You'll see more of that as well during the episodes because we kind of put the candles into clusters and areas that I think really work well together because you get the benefit of all of it at once. It's quite dramatic.

The scope of this episode, which has so much to do with sneaking around, we get all these secret passageways in and out of the castle, we get in episode one, we get Damon sort of respect. spying on the small council behind. There's all these also just like lattice work and screens and scrimms and curtains that people can hide behind or the camera can shoot through. I was wondering sort of what your directive was in terms of creating, I don't know, sneaky nooks and crannies for Palis' intrigue in this particular set. Yeah, I think I think Jim, who's our designer who created, who designed the set itself was really clever in a sense of thinking of all those areas that would, because the scale of it was so big and it was two levels of, well,

it was all the levels of the castle basically on one stage, which you don't really get to see very often or at all, I don't think. So it benefited from all those knucks and crannies that you needed to sort of give that depth within the stage, within the set, so that you could get the elements of people walking by or stopped in a corner where it's dark, and then maybe they'd just have one of the flame lights on or just really dim. And then you got the sense of people just lurking around.

So it was great. I mean, for me, it was just kind of, there was so much there to work with in terms of the set already that there was only kind of little elements that I needed to add to that. Wasn't very much at all. Can you speak to the painted table, this sort of famed piece from Thrones lore and your involvement in that? So I wanted to try and do something a bit different with the table to give it a bit more life and a journey probably from pre-game of Thrones. So it was established in a more opulent way in which we talked about before.

So I thought that it would be really interesting for it to be lit up and from underneath. So we'd have candles and flame. and then as it gets warmer from the heat of the candles, then you start to see everything coming alive on the table. And it worked really, really well. And it was a real long process of trying to get the lighting right for that. And a lot of hard work by the team. But I think it was really effective in the end.

It started off with just little ideas of lights coming through perspectives or even stones and gems and all those kind of things in reflective light and what you can get light through. And obviously just because it's driving glass and that we don't use any other form of glass, it needed to be able to project through that. And the candles and the flame worked really well from under the table. And then it just went boof.

And then it just became alive. That's amazing. For that Targaryan opulence that you're talking about, the best sort of artifact that we have as Game of Thrones fans is the Catspaw dagger. So were you looking at that dagger as sort of, okay, that's a style guide for us to follow in terms of the jewel-encrusted way in which the Targaryens approach things? I didn't really hold that in my mind as a big influence. I just, I wanted to just go very luxurious, I suppose.

And when you start sometimes with fabrics, then that can give you a real feel of opulence in terms of color combinations or quality. of fabrics and patterns and designs and then mixing that with really interesting furniture that you could give more detail to and so we would paint some of the furniture with a dash of gold or silver here so it really hit

the light well and I think that really brought out a bit more character of the furniture so that it wasn't just dark carved you know old English medieval looking it needed to have that mid-sense between the very sorts of Roman or Egyptian or even just thinking back now, the Persian kind of influence

and then come towards the Spanish kind of influence of furniture, which was really great because there's really beautiful turns within the wood and all sorts of things. So you could evolve some of those ideas. And sometimes, for instance, some of the beds that I did, it was pieces from one bed with pieces of another bed that I really liked and put them together to. to create something unique. And that was really fun to do. Sometimes I was thinking, oh, good, I hope it works.

But I think it did most of the time. It really came together well. Yeah, I mean, I think I was taking a special notice of Allison's bed in her chamber in this episode because it's so massive. Just while she looks so small in this massive bed in her chamber. I guess, you know, I mean, maybe for this very sexy episode, episode of Thrones is worth asking you a little bit more about the beds. Like, are there any little details of personality or taking the character into mind of what you want to project? Or were you

just looking for it to create a cool piece in all of these rooms? I think in each room, there's all, the main element is the character and bringing it some sort of history to that person's profile and background. And I think, you know, for the king being such a strong element of the of the family that it was great to create something that had dragons on that

and so that was designed in mind of him and his strength and his power and being able to get to use some dragons and then when it came to Rainira

she's very different to obviously to Alison so their characters came out differently within their rooms too and that that did come out

in their beds and their fabrics so Allison's was obviously it was Emma's before and it was quite elegant. It was softer and the wood was lighter and then that goes, there's things that as the episodes evolved

there are other things that unfold about their characters within the spaces that they're living in which was really interesting to do. So for Rainier who's was a bit darker and a bit more chaotic so yeah as you work through those those sets you will see a bit more of their personalities, I hope, coming from those things. I love the idea of a chaotic bed. That is incredible. I wanted to ask you, you know, something that a lot of people have noticed in every room so far, I think, in this castle, there is a tapestry, lurid tapestries,

Targaryen Orgy Tapestries. A friend of mine. has dubbed it the Targa Sutra. What is the story of the tapestries that we've seen? I mean, we were all a bit shocked to begin with, but it's really funny because you end up just not even seeing them in the end because they just become so familiar. And then you bring somebody new onto the set, and they go, ooh. And then you're like, oh, yes.

And it becomes a really sort of awkward moment of how you talk about it. But I think it was, yeah, it was. to show their provocativeness, I guess. And I think that the storytelling of that is through Ryan and the background of Game of Thrones and put in another edge to the Targaryans. So, yeah, it's quite interesting. But they were paintings.

They were actually paintings. They weren't hamstruse, but they were painted onto the walls, which was a really clever thing to do. Oh, that's incredible. I hope that the people who did those had such fun. They're like, oh yeah, I'm on Targaryen Orgy Duty today. I think they had a lot of people making funny comments towards them and they were paying to them.

Sure. I want to ask you, I know you've talked already to some folks about the small council stone, so I don't want to make you repeat anything you've said. But something I think that's so extraordinary about them is that they seem each design to sort of match the person, the corresponding person, that they're sort of these bespoke marbles that match to the person they come with. And we see that Reneira has one in this episode. Can you talk to me about Reneira's beautiful small council stone that she gets? Well, they were based on their colors in a sense, and they're, you know, their sigils and trying to relate them to that more than anything. And I think

that when it just, again, for me, I suppose, I've got many stones that I would keep around me that not from a spiritual point of view, but from a lighting point of view. And so just by looking at these through the light and seeing the different feelings, and it sounds kind of like really deep, but just the different feelings that those represent when you look at those lights and combinations and the textures within them, I think it's just really interesting because you get drawn to a certain design that suits a certain character. It's quite hard to explain, but it's, it's almost like you just, you go into this character

a bit more like method acting, I suppose. So even when you do the sets, you kind of try and feel your way around them and create them as you would thinking that that person really is there and you become that person. So it sounds bizarre, but when it comes to things like that, which are really hero pieces, You know, that's the thought process around them. So it would be just to do with their personalities and their colors, really, that reflect through that. Two quick final questions. Number one, when it comes to Targaryens, is there ever such a thing as like too many dragons in your decorating?

Do you ever look at a room and you're like, we need to take three or four dragons away? No? No. More dragons. Yes, more dragons. I'm Welsh, so the dragon is really important to me, so I'm hoping that we might get more dragons next time. A Welsh one, even.

And then is there a detail that no one has noticed yet that you're particularly, you know, oh, I can't wait until someone figures this out that you put it into the set? Well, I can't really say anything for the episodes coming up because that would be a spoiler. So, yeah, I probably can't talk about that because there is the corolluses, which you have gone into very briefly. Drift Mark, the Valarian House, yeah.

Yeah, and there's lots of layers of character within there and artefacts. And so I think it's really, it's an interesting set to just keep your eyes open in there. because wherever you look, there's something interesting to see. There was one, and in Corliss's study, which is sort of all we've seen really, I think, of Driftmark, there was sort of a bust with like coral grown over it, you know, so is it that sort of thing we should be on the lookout for in the corners? Yeah, I think there's lots of lovely little treats like that within his world, which I really loved doing, yeah.

Okay, we'll be on the lookout for Driftmark. Thank you so much for the chat. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Of course. That was wonderful. Can't wait to keep tracking the murals

across every scene the rest of the season. It is now time for our book Look Ahead where we will be accounting for future fire and blood info in terms of what happened in this episode and what it's setting the stage for. If you don't want to hear it, bounce. If you do, we're going to start with A Dance of Dragon Dreams.

We're going to start with Storms End. Couldn't stop thinking about future Barathean side switching and storms and sequences when we open the episode here, Joe. What did you make of the fact that we spent time here in terms of priming us for our return? I'm kind of wondering, you know, we've talked in this section before about Borrmann-Berathian, who we've seen a couple times now. It's his son, Boros Barathean, who eventually switches. And I wonder if they're just going to conflate the Baratheans and it's just going to be Bormand all the way through,

just because we've already spent time with him. And we haven't even met his son. I've heard for some people that they think this season's going to end with Eamon versus Luc Harris at Storm's End, that we're going to get the first dance that kicks off the war in earnest. I had been imagining that we were going to end with the dual crowning of the monarchs, and that was going to be. But, like, yeah, it makes sense.

sense to me that like maybe we're going to get like an actual dragon battle to close out the episode in episode 10 in which case like storms like the Barathean within the season buildup to Storm's End might be a thing that they're doing. What do you think about that as an ending point? I love it. I think either of those sounds like a really good logical concluding point. And I just still have no feel for like how we're going to move through all of this story in so a few episodes and all of these years that we still have to cover because, you know, Amid hasn't even been born yet. I assume we'll meet him next episode.

And obviously Luke hasn't been born yet. So, you know, these characters have to be born, grow. We've got to lose the first eye. We need the eye for the eye showdown, which obviously is featured heavily in the trailers and then build toward both sides pursuing the Baratheans to win them to their cause. And then this, hey, take your family shit elsewhere.

Pursuit and Dragon Doll. So I think ending on Agon and Renera feels like a more appropriate final note like you're saying, but I do love the idea of building toward ARAX versus Vagar as this Vagah as this like, holy shit, this is what the rest of this show is going to be. To get people like spectacularly excited for season two, maybe. I also want to just really quickly run through all the bad moves that Reneer is making on her bad will tour of the Seven Kingdoms. Okay, because, like, she's already pissed off the Lannisters at the hunt. The Barathians, the Brackens, they will all eventually side with Alicent in the Dance of the Dragons. And Allison, we saw, already ingratiated herself to the Lannisters at the hunt. A little Lord Blackwood, however, and the Tullies and the phrase, who are also at Storms End, they'll side with Ranira.

We mentioned briefly Bloody Ben Blackwood, but that's a really fun figure going forward. So let's look out for. But yeah, who else can Reneer take off before she goes around asking these various houses to back her in the dance, you know? Who, indeed. Well, we know that she's no friend of Otto High Towers and on the front of Otto's ouster. We had some fun with Chris on Talk to Thoreads where he was like, who's going to be hand? Well, the answer is Lionel. Lionel Strong is going to be hand.

Obviously. He sets out really well. Yeah. Otto's, he's coming back, man. after that mysterious iron all fire that I can't wait to learn more about Otto will return.

So there's a lot of interesting stuff to come on the hand front and Otto's ultimate defiance of Viseras's succession wish it felt to me like so much of that was cemented here. Even though Otto is actively

working toward this AGO on agenda for episodes now, this feels like a rift that even when he is welcome back will be something that he doesn't forget. this like indignity here interesting i also think you know we talked about how dangerous how how dangerous it is for a targary to be alone in the world like what about a high tower alone in the world what about alison here all by herself and i think also these the when you asked about the sleeping draft that

she takes we assume earlier in the episode what that's up to me is like we watch alison sort of sit from this goblet as she's looking out the window it just like looked classic surcey to me you know and i think what I love about what, you know, and there's plenty of ways in which Reneura could be a surce comp in a certain degree, you know, like wanting to be a boy, being ignored by her father, wanting to be the heir, the realm doesn't want a woman, like all this sort of stuff. They're surcy comps for both of them. And what I love is that we're getting all this time with them as young women before we see them slip into these more ferocious modes so that we just have this empathy and

understanding for them that like if we had spent time with younger Circe, I think we might have even more empathy available for her. Yeah, I completely agree. Harwin. We mentioned Lionel a second ago. I just feel like we need more. I feel like if you're not listening to podcasts and you haven't read the books, you don't even know that the guy who leered at her at the hunt is the same guy who ran into

her in the street and that he has a name and it's Harwin. Dude, I am obsessed with him, as you know, and, like, didn't even recognize that that was him the first time I watched the screener, because his face is covered. She says Sir Harwin, but it sounded to me like Sir Hobb. I was like, oh, where the Sir Hobb guy is? We don't have subtitles on the screeners.

And then when I was rewatched, I was like, oh, my God, of course it's Harwin. And he's, yeah, I just, we need to be, we need to be setting the stage better for the fact that he is going to father father children. Yeah. In this illicit affair, which brings us to Lainor.

The betrothal is unfolding. We see the wedding teased in the trailer for next week. That will presumably be a good stretch of episode five. Are you surprised that Lainor's sexuality has not been a focus yet? I mean, I would just want more time with Lainor, period. Again, like Harwin, I just feel like they're not ceding him in strong enough. here. But, like, I think that, I think there's plenty of room in that episode itself. It won't take long for them to establish that as the case. And it could be still, it's very effective narratively,

if it's something Reneira learns about after they're married as opposed to something she knows before as well. Kristen. Speaking of royal weddings. Take us through up. Is his turn coming next week? Is it that soon? We see him beating someone in the trailer for next week. And in the book, he at the wedding, an attorney for the wedding, he accosts with his trusty morning star and kills Lainor's boyfriend, Sir Joffrey, of Lonmouth. So I don't know if that's exactly what we're getting here, but like Kristen going berserker on someone at the wedding seems to be. And like, again, we see all this pressure and conflict in this episode. And, and, okay, so we got this great part two of Liz's email. Because if, if, that's,

But question of consent, I felt, was really important to hit because it's deeply intentional. We are meant to feel, I think, uncomfortable to some degree with what has happened here. Because, as Lizzie writes in, she says, it's also a wonderful, narratively speaking, splintering point for Kristen to eventually sour on Renira. She can't marry him. There's no future in the scupling. He knows he's just a body here. It's almost dehumanizing. I found it narratively delightful to witness,

especially knowing where we are headed. So there's this big mystery in fire and blood. What happened that turned Kristen from so loyal to Reneira to so loyal to Allison and hating Reneira? The most bitter of her foes per fire and blood, yeah. So if it's this like in the book, the idea is like he was so offended by her approaching him that he was like, you know, fuck you forever. This makes so much more sense.

that he is compromised by what happened here, as much, again, as he was enjoying it in that little bubble of the room, that this is the, you know, this is the wedge. There is also one of the competing accounts in Fire and Blood is that he, like, tries to convince her to run away with him. Yeah. But that's only one of the accounts. So it'll be...

So are we going to see that? Right. That's a good question. That's again where I'm like, oh, is there enough time for all of this to happen in one episode before the the new cast arrives. The time jump. Boy.

But yeah, I'm a little excited for like all the people who are like, oh, Kristen Cole, you're so dreamy. I know. He's so wonderful. And I'm like, oh, we'll see. Yeah. I know. It's going to be a real, real shock for the masses.

It's like our red wedding where I'm like, oh, they're going, oh, they're going to go to a wedding. Anyway, have fun with that. You want to talk about the dagger again some more? Please. Go for it. No, I want to ask you. You want to talk about Kristen Cole's scene. the dagger? Well, I just think like, okay, if he does see it, then is he going to be able to

say once he's team green? Hey, Allison, I saw this really weird thing where Baceres summoned Reneira to his chambers lit the dagger that he literally always has on him. You know the one that he always has on him on fire. And she immediately went and stood in front of it and then they closed the doors. Does that seem worth looking into? I mean, to follow your suspicious mind down this path, we do see in the trailer this great moment they've used again and again in the trailer of Alicent grabbing the cat's paw dagger, this sort of eye for an eye moment that we think is coming, but is like, is that also Allison trying to get her hand on a dagger that Kristen told her about. I just need to the fire for a second and have A-gon read some Valerian. I'll be right back.

Thank you. It's like, who knows? Oh my God. Speaking of Allison's children. Yeah. New kiddo here. Stop us if you've heard this before, folks. But this baby, A Targaryen, Helena, will marry her brother. Cool.

Become queen and then become involved in countless horrors. I thought it was really interesting. Then in this episode where we meet giant baby Helena, that we get two little nods to the blood and cheese, blood and cheese is this this is actually kind of the red wedding moment of of the house of the dragon

but like that these two men sent from Damon Viamisari I believe like come in and torment Helena and ask her to choose which of her children she once killed and then they killed the other one and it's terrible in retribution for

Amon killing right son for a son right so blood and cheese in the name of these two guys Cheese is a rat catcher. Yes. And the line from the book is, the hidden doors and secret tunnels

that Magor the Cruel had built were as familiar to cheese as to the rats that he hunted. So the fact that we see all these rats and rodents and whatever around and all these secret tunnels is like a good, like laying track for blood and cheese. Absolutely. Also a lot of looking out windows,

which is rough. It's tough. For Helena? It's tough. It's tough, folks. Speaking of tough, we've yet to meet Damon's bronze bitch Raya Royce, but we see her in the trailer for next week.

So apparently we will be meeting her and she will immediately be killed by her horse because we see the horse rearing. This is like... Do you think they're going to have Damon kill her? Because that's a question in the book. Almost definitely. What do you think?

Oh, get ready, Damon Defenders. It's exciting. I also want to go back to the... Maybe it's just the... I'm susceptible to a trailer. You know, misleading. Obviously, like, Louie. Yeah.

I'm like suspiciously lurking. I'm like, ah, murderer. But I love David, so I don't want him to be a murder. Okay. I want to break up this idea of a holy war that hadn't really occurred to me until recently. We've been talking about Allison's piety. There's a shot in like the promo materials of Olivia Cook is Allison, and she's got the seven-pointed stars, like something she's wearing.

And so I was wondering if like when we get to the Dance of Dragons that Allison will turn it into some kind of like holy war that like she will claim that her side is a side of piety and Reneira and Damon, these fornicators, these incestuous fornicators, are the side of like, you know, Targary and Depravity. And if as part of that, she will have the Targaryen fucking murals painted over in the Red Keep. Because I was wondering if like they're there to show that like later we'll see them dramatically. I thought take it down. But now that I learned they're not tapestry,

paint it over, you know? I like it. My only note on the theory is that she's going to have a hard time pushing that agenda when she's marrying her kids to each other. I just, I just as you were eyeing me beatily through the Zoom. I was like one half step behind you. Okay.

Great stuff. Don't worry about bravos. Lena's not married. the sea lord of Bravo. She's marrying Damon because his wife is going to die soon, so that's fine.

That's right. Corliss, like, regretting this match of working to delay it and delay it and delay it, thus leaving open the door

for Damon to move right in is just an all-timer. And Damon is not going to be away from Masaria for long because this little bird deployment, this mistress of whisperer's future, like early interesting setup here

for her. role as Reneira's, not just Damans, but Reneira's mistress of whisperers. Love it. Love it. And actually, like, Masaria informs on Damon to Reneira. And so this sort of, like, enmity she has with him here is, you know, a long track that we're laying. hit us with our final moment. This is something that made a lot of book readers

set up and scream in this episode. I actually did like gasp watching this and Adam who has not read fire and blood was like what? And I was like, nothing. Nothing? It's fine. Ignore me? Nothing, nothing. You mentioned the eyeless

Kingslandian out on the stroll. Do you wish to know your death child? And then we immediately got two. One of the fire-breathing dragon, statue, metal statue figurines lining the streets. So that was some delightful foreshadowing. I mean, I wish that dragon had like chomped, you know, to presage.

Or just quoted Joffrey. Eton. From Game of Thrones from counting the tail to Marjorie. That would have been fine, too. That would have been fine, too. Anything else, too? I really think we did it. Great stuff.

I loved this episode of television. I thought it was incredible. I also really loved it. I can't wait for episode five. Can't believe we're almost halfway. I'm sad. Once we get to the halfway mark, I just start to think about how it's almost over. You know me. Don't attend. The listeners are going to be bummed that this isn't like four hours long because that's what they were expecting from us on the... Pretty close. On the horn front. I know. People really thought we were going to cross the four hour mark this week because they did. I just really appreciate this episode because I like Thrones to be horny, but I love that I come out of this feeling like, even though there's like all this sexual content here, I don't feel like grimy about having watched it. You know what I mean? Sorry, incest, it's fine, I guess is my point. But I just, I think it goes back to the way that it was shot. I really think they really did a great job making it feel so character relevant, so plot relevant. And, you know, part of Growing up as a young woman is part of all of this. So, yeah, absolutely. All right, friends, it's time for the last Valerian pyromancer to hide our song in the seal.

That's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our dragon lords, Steve Allman, for producing this episode, Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode, and Joomi Adan for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We will see you on Friday for our rings of power deep dive. And then again on Sunday night, immediately after House of the Dragon episode five for Talk to Thrones.

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