House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 4 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Gods be good! Chris Ryan is joined by Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson to give their immediate thoughts and reactions on the incredibly messed up fourth episode of 'House of the Dragon.' Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone. This is Chris Ryan from The Ringer. As many of you have heard by now, we lost a treasured colleague and friend over the weekend. Jonathan Charks passed away on Saturday. John was 34. He leaves behind a wife and a son, and we are obviously mourning his loss and sending all of our love to his family right now. If you go to the ringer.com slash Jonathan Charks, that's J-O-N-A-T-J-A-R-K-S. You will find a memorial page for John, which has links to his GoFundMe that benefits his family. and the amazing writing he did throughout his experience. I encourage you to go there, and if you can, please support the Charks family.

Briefly, I will just say that John was among the first people that we hired to work for the Ringer, so he was instrumental in defining the voice and perspective of the site. He has as much to do with what this place is as anyone else. And throughout his experience with Cancer, John communicated eloquently about the challenges he was facing, both through his writing and his podcasting. You could never stop John from talking about his passions. It's one of the things I loved about him. Over the last few months,

whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John focused, and the next thing I knew we would be talking about James Hardin or Better Call Saul. He really loved this stuff. He loved talking about it, celebrating it, debating it, illuminating it.

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And I am joined by Ringer senior staff writer, Joanna Robinson, and the mayor of the street of silk. Mallory Rubin, and we're here to talk about the fourth episode of House of the Dragon. It's called the King of the Narrow Sea. It's so wonderful to have, would you call it a family reunion here today, guys? Yeah.

A pleasant targ gathering, classic coming together. We share everything here on Doctor Thrones. So that was an episode of TV. And I'm going to ask you just straight off the bat. We could start with you, Mow. Of the many, many things, what was the most fucked up thing that happened in that episode of House of the Dragon? Let me say that this was my favorite episode of the season.

I loved it. Let's start there. What was the most fucked up thing that happened this episode? I think that you are supposed to say, or you might be expecting me to say, Damon Targaryen trying to fuck his niece in public in a pleasure house. I got to be honest, I'm not sure that cracks my top five.

I'm serious. I think the final four for me would be a ancient man from House Dundarian and a young boy from House Blackwood back to back, proposing to Reneera. House of the Dragon, Hot D, on a three-episode streak of involving children and marriage plots. Also, Lord Dundarian, the deep dry moat line.

I don't think that's going to get it done. Next contender would be Allison needing to give Vassaris a sponge bath to gently dab his sores while he guzzles wine in the tub. My next contender would be the harrowing, haunting Vassaris, Alice at sex scene.

And then I think my next pick in my final four here would be Allison's judgment against Renera, the real disgust in her eyes at the prospect of Renera sullying her virtue. Those are my top four. What about you guys? Joe, what about you? Anything outside of Mallory's four contenders there? I think the cherry on the top of the royal marriage bed, which was my number one, would be the like the rat from the depart, the end of the departed that like scurries across the time. top of the four poster. Just real, real fine, fine night for Allison Ty Tower.

How about you, Chris? I think probably the overhead shot of Viseras's sore covered back as he performed his marital duties with his young wife was probably the moment where I was like, is this really where I've arrived at my life that this is what I'm doing? You know? Deeply miserable, unhappy life. Yes.

We can go through the episode itself. This was a very, I wouldn't say claustrophobic, but in previous episodes, we've either had a set piece or an adventure out into the woods. This was largely taking place within the walls of Kingslanding itself.

You know, there was obviously a great escape out of the castle and into, what was that district called again? Is that the circus district? What was happening? I mean, it's obviously like a place that looks like Bourbon Street. Yeah.

It's straight to meet on Mardi Gras, right? Just where anything the heart desires is available. Drama, theater, you know, sample plates for some of the food stalls and then any sexual perversion you wanted to explore, you could do that in the neighborhood that Reneer escapes to. I'll just go through the episode itself.

So this is the fourth episode. It's called the King of the Narrow Sea, that's in reference to what Damon has been crowned after his victory over the crab feeder. But I'll get to that. So it opens up with Renira. I kind of a Westerosi version of The Bachelorette, which Mallory referred to. And it would be funny if it wasn't so dehumanizing for Reneer and honestly fatal for a lot of her suitors who are clashing while online to give their spiel about why they deserve to be Reneira's husband. She bails on this dating game early with Sir Kristen,

humiliating all the dudes and her father who are trying to pair her off for political benefit to various families, but ultimately they're the Targaryens. She gets back in King's Landing just in time as Damon shows up wearing a crown of wood or kind of looks like a crown of thorns. And this is a party foul because you're not supposed to be wearing a crown

when you address the real king. But after hearing about Damon's conquest in the stepstones of Asaris, Daps up his brother and is just like, you're back. You're back of my cool book, you know? And at a party later on, Renira and Damon talk in Valerian about the joys and pains of marriage. Beceras hears from Otto that Corlis is going to marry off his daughter to the guy who runs

Bravo, which would create a serious, like, financial, military and politically, like, you know, a family worth reckoning with if that would happen. There is an increased urgency around marrying off Renira, which is interesting because that night, she goes out to what I would. to have what I would call, I guess the British call a hendu. Is that what that is? Right?

It's her and Damon, Street of Silk, pleasure house, you know, some great, like, food offerings, and then basically a tapestry,

to borrow a phrase used in this episode itself, of sexual pleasure. And it's just like, really just like an absolute mural of flesh everybody's going at each other guys, girls, whatever, family members, old, young,

it's just like, honestly, the czar of the Telestrator couldn't even diagram the things that were happening in that pleasure house. But what does happen is Damon and Reneer

or they just get swept up in the moment. And despite the fact that he is her uncle and she is quite young, they start doing, like it starts a little bit of the air kissing, you know what I mean, which is pretty illicit. And then there's some stuff happening below the belt line that we're going to have to really talk about

because I'm not exactly sure what happens. We'll get to it. Going frame by frame? Yeah, can't wait. Maybe. Play by play. Yeah, after Damon, we have Damon's kind of like, either his senses come to him or he fails to perform.

Reneer deuses out on that situation, goes home and immediately sleeps with Sir Kristen to seal the night off. While all this is happening, we get a very cool scene of Viceris and Allison making more errors together that made me die a little bit on the inside. Turns out Otto's got some little birds on the street,

so he tells Viseris that the word around the schoolyard is that Reneer has defiled herself with Damon. Veseris gets mad at everyone over this, including Otto, Reneera, and Damon. Allison, who had been snooping on this situation, snooping seeming to run in the Hightower family. confronts Reneira on the Damon stuff, and she basically lies on her dead mother's name

saying that she did not hook up with Damon. I guess technically... Actually, we should amend our most fucked up thing from the episode. Yeah, swearing on your dead mom that you didn't hook up with your uncles. Very rough. Coming to number five.

Despite her protests, Crayal and Fierrez is very pissed and essentially marries her off to Corlis' son, but not before he stops to do a little show and tell with a dagger and tells her about how there's a prince who was promised and that's the secret that we're guarding

and we got to get ready for the Song of Ice and Fire season seven Game of Thrones a lot of people have thoughts on it but you know like he was like have you seen Rise of Skywalker are you familiar with daggers that have detailed descriptions

have you logged into Reddit recently like anyway so she understands or gets an even greater understanding of what the sort of Targaryian family responsibility is that's greater than any kind of sitting on a throne or having a crown or running a kingdom.

It's really about this oncoming future evil that they have to combat with the prince who was promised leading the way. She gets what she wants. Oh, so Renira agrees to this proposed union, but her price for this is that Otto has to go because she's like, this guy has been messing around for too long. He's moving against you politically.

He's got you marrying his. daughter, he's telling you that I'm I'm trouble. We got to get rid of this guy. So she's like, I'll marry Corliss's kid, but you got to get rid of Otto. He goes through with it. He also goes through with having his maister, bring her a cup

of abortion tea at the end of the episode, which is just like, again, like number seven of the fucked up things that happen. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the ending of this episode. The dagger scene.

because this was something that I obviously noted. Both of you reacted to quite passionately in the first episode when Vassaris talks to Reneer for the first time about the dream and what the Targaryens are actually responsible for. Was, for me, a novice when it comes to this stuff, and Joe, we can start with you here. Was this a huge revelation to hear the prince who was promised be uttered on this show,

or is this just a continuation of the song that Pissaris has been singing since the first episode? It feels like a continuation of that first episode song, but the fact that it is literally written on the dagger is truly wild to me. This answers a couple questions for us about how the song was passed down through the generations. Like if people, if some kings died without passing it down, did their heirs remember to shove the dagger, the family heirloom and the fire? and reveal the writing there. But I have follow-up questions for that.

Like, did Peter Baylish, Littlefinger, who had that dagger for a while, never think to shove it in the fire? Like, I feel like, I feel like that's something he would always be checking for visible ink. Well, has Peter Balish ever seen Lord of the Rings and seen the one ring cast into the flames to reveal the inscription? A lot of this comes down to what other pieces of nerd culture, the characters in this show, are familiar with. It's a great point.

But the fact that he's literally inscribed on the knife that then will kill the Knight King in the future when Aria wields it is, of course, interesting. But I think for this show, what's really interesting is this conversation, what it boils down to when he says, you know, there's something more important than your desires, Reneira, right? Is this idea of duty, which Mallory likes to talk about a lot. Molly loves this talk of, like, duty versus love and what do you choose in the world of Westeros. Love this the death of duty.

And when she brought that up before we started watching this season, I was like, well, we're not going to get a lot of talk about duty from the fucking Targaryians. Like the Targaryians don't care about duty. That's a Stark concept. It's not a Targaryen concept. But this idea of the realm, which is like what Varys would talk about all the time, like what do we owe the people that we rule? And this comes up in this very episode when they're out on the street watching a mummer's farce, Chris's favorite thing. This is mommer. And Reneer tries to chime in, and she's like, Lleinner.

And Damon's like, it matters what the small folk think. Like, their opinion matters. And she's like, no, it doesn't. And so her disconnect from the fact that to be queen means you have a responsibility to the kingdom. And all these people out here are your responsibility. It's not just an inside the keep power play. That all sort of came bubbling in the services episode, right? Mal, like, what do you think?

I'm currently thinking about how Reneira sounds like Saw Guerrera shouting lies deception. So I'm just going to keep referencing other stories instead of talking about this one, I guess. I was really, I was really, we've talked in each pod about the time frame. And one of the spots that I found myself thinking most about the passage of time was this sequence, because it's really notable to me that the premiere concludes with this massive reveal from Viseras to Reneira, which is a huge canon download, but also, more so even than naming her air, the thing that cements that the trust and the choice

and how real that is to him, how serious he is about it in that moment that he is passing down that information to her, the burden of their rule. He then waits four and a half years to show her this, to take the next step. And I think that is so emblematic

of his failure and like deeply rooted struggle as a father, or limitation maybe as a father, as a mentor, as a king. He always talks about the necessity, the burden that he carries, the weight that they shoulder, the things that he needs her to be thinking about instead of just her own desire, as you mentioned that quote, Joe. But he rarely takes the time to explain how, to show her what that looks like tangibly. This should have been the next day for them.

I'm glad to see. I'm glad to see she's finally graduated from Cup Bear to having like an action. seat at the table, the small council. Oh, yeah, I noticed that. Yeah, but I think Chris, for like, what's also true, I love what you said there, Malin, I think what's also true, if we think about this is a succession story. Yes. The question of who has what information going forward?

Like, the Mummers Fars lays it out for us that, like, you know, we've got Agon, the baby, Renera and Damon are these sort of like contenders for the throne. Who knows what going forward? Which of the Roy kids on Succession has some sort of like secret intel on Waystar Roe Quo that might be important going forward. So that's going to be interesting to think about who knows what as we figure out who should sit their butt on that big chair. To that point, I was pretty struck by the fact that the Kingsguard is bringing

Reneera into his chambers. Kristen and another member of the Kingsguard are right there at the open door and Reneer walks right up to the fire and the blade. This is in plain sight. This is multiple people in this moment can see that there. And not that they're there to hear the Prince that was promised line and the subsequent discussion, but people who are paying attention, and especially in an episode where the little birds are brought in and Masaria's role is the white worm. Where Allison is just like, I'm behind this changing.

Yeah, like we're meant to think in this episode about who is observing, hearing, seeing what. And the fact that that was just out in plain sight really stood out to me. The Saras needs to be a little, either needs to be a little more careful with this thing he thinks this is preciously guarded secret or just tell everyone. You two don't regularly roast your carving knife? Like that's not...

Just, you know, cleaning it. Maybe he'll be able to tell them, yeah, I'm just using this to cauterize my most recent sore. You know? I guess the reason of why I wanted to ask you, Andy and I just had this discussion for the watch for tonight

where Game of Thrones, the show, early on introduced this idea that winter was coming. That for all of the like political, who's going to, you know, Ned and Circe and, you know, Robert Barthian and all the stuff that was happening in that first season, very early on, they gave us a glimpse of this existential threat that these people would eventually face. And in some ways, that was the, it wasn't the only story engine, but it was the overstory engine. Like eventually this is coming. Eventually we can, we can always check in on this every couple of episodes and be like,

is winter here? Is winter going to be long? What are we going to do when winter comes? What does that mean? And House of the Dragon, probably like in, at least in terms of its text, does not have something like that, right? Like it doesn't have a near supernatural kind of threat facing these characters necessarily that I know of based on what we have seen so far. And that's, I thought it was interesting that they have now returned to this idea that something governs who becomes king or queen and what they do

with that power beyond just like how can we, in Damon's words, purify the Targaryen bloodline and restore it to its glory that, like, that's what Damon ultimately wants to do, even though he's probably also weirdly into his niece. So I wanted to throw that out and ask the two of you to the extent that you're capable of answering

that without giving away, like, well, this is what's going to happen in this show. Like, whether or not you feel like this is the showrunners bringing in something that's like, here's just a little seasoning to make this feel bigger than just Targary and Civil War. I mean, I think it achieves that. I think it's doing a couple things. First of all, I guess this is, you know, and we talked about this before, I think, in episode one, but this is something that George R. Martin came up with, this idea that, like,

this traces back to Acon the Conqueror. It's nowhere in the text that we've read. And so it's like sent all the book readers in this huge, you know, downward spiral of who knew what when. And like, how does this explain how various Targaryians reacted whenever winter came? They're like, winter's here. Is this the winter? Like, is this the one? So, you know, keeping our eyes on winter.

But I think to your point, it gives more connective tissue to the original series, which is obviously something HBO wants. They want this to feel like a show that is both new yet familiar. And this is a major way to do that. I think it also connects to that larger through line of portents, signs, signs, portents, the dreams, the prophecies. And Joe made a really wonderful observation. I believe this was on our episode two, House of Our Deep Dive, though. Don't quote me on that because I can't remember which pot is which anymore. But Joe spoke so beautifully about this larger idea of Targaryan madness.

and the weight that this information would have on each of these rulers and how interesting that will be to track across this show and this story. Like, what does this do to people once they know? Is this what drives the Mad King Mad? Right. Exactly. And like we're watching in real time the weight that this is inflicting on Vassaris, a character who is already so inclined to put stock into his own dream,

this idea that we heard him discuss with Allison by the bonfire, that pop and bonfire in episode three about the power of prophecy compared to the power of dragons and the way that he so desperately wanted to be a dreamer, he is really inclined to believe that this is the most serious thing in his life and in the world. What does that do to a person? How does that influence the decisions they make in the way they treat the other people in their lives and the expectations that they hold for their children or anyone else around them? And I think that that will then continue to be true for anyone who receives that information. So Joe called that out early,

and I think it's really going to be central to the entire story that we're watching. The larger quote about Targaryen madness is that when a Targaryian is born, a coin flips. One side is greatness, the other side is madness. So it's sort of like, what will this do to you?

Will it drive you to greatness, or will it drive you to madness, this big, huge, burdensome knowledge that you have? And she's already talked, she talks about it both in kind of like a dark way, at the mummer's farce that she's at this week where she's just like, I don't give a shit what these people think of me.

Like, if I want to, I'll just ignite them. Alarming. And in other situations, mostly related to, I think, you know, the treatment of women in the world that she's in. She's just kind of like, I don't really feel like we need to adhere to the old ways of doing things

or what tradition is said. And we know that eventually a Targaryen will want to smash the wheel. And like that, that is something that runs through. So I'm also kind of curious about how it plays out in terms of Targaryen traditionalists or Targaryen reformers, you know, because sometimes the latter is actually not great. Sometimes the latter can be a reformer,

but winds up lighting everything on fire in their wake. Well, it's all connected, right? Because if you think that you're reforming in pursuit of saving the world, then you'll stop at nothing to achieve that. Now, Danny, from everything we know, did not ever receive this information. This, as far as we can tell so far, and maybe we'll learn more, dies with Ragar. That's our assumption at the moment.

But even so more broadly for these other characters in this slice of history, I think this also connects to this other through line we've been discussing a lot, which was also really present in this episode,

this idea of loneliness. I imagine even dragons get lonely, as Vesera says. We've mentioned on many pods, the Aman idea about Dineris, a Targaryan alone in the world is a terrible thing. The loneliness of this knowledge

is a specific thing for Viseris, is a specific thing for Reneer. But even though it is so particular to them, it is something that connects them to Damon, to Allison, characters who are also defined by feeling utterly, utterly isolated from the people that they would seek to be close to. I have a cure for loneliness. Is it sex?

Is it a field trip to the street of silk with your uncle? It's throwing on some Barney sweatshirt and a beanie. A slouch be a beanie. And going out with your uncle. This was an incredible outfit. Seriously. getting in your cups I have this outfit

and then going down to three submit basements in a like a nightclub in New York City in the early 80s and find it out just what you're into so let's just talk about that scene because honestly there I mean like there was a lot that happened in this episode but they made the choice

to make this the centerpiece some episodes there was no set piece I don't know what the fuck you're talking about yeah well I guess I I stand corrected. This was the set piece of the episode. It was this sexual ballet.

Extravaganza. Oh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I liked flesh mural, which is what you went with earlier. I have a couple of things. Either one of you answer any of these things to me.

I'm just going to point out some observations, okay? Uh-huh. So let's just go before the pleasure house. I think Damon flying over the boat. and buzzing the tower, so to speak, in the earlier scene. Real maverick energy there. There's a little bit of, that feels like a little bit more a loaded gesture after we see what happens in the rest of the episode, correct? Yeah, a little just the tip foreshadowing.

Oh, Jesus. No, for me. Yes. Joe? For me, I thought an important moment there is how, like, genuinely and like tenderly concerned Kristen Cole seemed to be for Rainier. Yes. Yeah, he's a good guy. You know, like...

To go from the unpredictability of Damon to the safe, nurturing, embrace arms of... Yeah, Kristen Cole. All right. So when we get into the pleasure zone, I guess I just want to ask this... Are you saying pleasure zone because you said Buzz the Tower and you have danger zone in your head right now? Should we do a little remix right here? I'm also running out of ways to say... High way to the pleasure zone.

I was just thinking of the auto zone. Anyway, let's talk about the pleasure zone. I guess I'm going to ask this question on a podcast. Damon couldn't perform because he chronically fails to do so or because the little voice inside his head told him not to have sex with his niece. I think this is going to be the rift that drives House of Arr apart, that tears us apart. Because I think it was more than just a performance issue for Damon. I think there's something.

Yeah. Okay, never mind. We agree. Never mind. I thought, I thought, given the barrage of texts we've gotten from Mallory on this issue, I thought she was going to come down firmly on. It was a performance issue. So the read that we have is that they're getting after it.

It's getting hotter and hotter and steamier and steamier. He then all of a sudden stops kissing her and is like, I can't. We can't. But she's also like, you definitely want to though, right? Like, I'm trying to like read the choreography here. It's really interesting that this is what I'm discussing. No, no, but keep going. Yeah, keep giving us.

But I think it's worth noting because it's, like what are his designs on her and like what's the purpose of this? Like they obviously have chemistry. Ever since he first got here when she was 14 gross, but definitely in this episode, he's looking at her like a cat looks like a bull cream. Yeah. Like that is something that he has been doing. On the bridge at Dragonstone, they have, it sparks are flying.

Sparks are plenty. Another question to ask, and you might ask it, Chris, is like, you know, about how much of this is a calculated political play. for Damon to put Rainier in a position to compromise her so much that Vassaris is forced to marry her off to Damon and then Damon gets to be king anyway. Which, you know, we get that conversation with Viceris later.

I think all of those ingredients are in the mix and it's what makes Damon such an interesting character because I think that move that he makes right before they start to go at it where he pulls the slouch beanie off. Yes. To make it so that everyone knows who this is down there, that seems like the part of Damon that's like, I'm going to compromise her and then I'm going to get what I want.

I was almost bummed out that Otto had such an obvious, like the kid hanging outside because it would have been really funny if someone was like, Otto, Otto. I saw the princess at a pleasure house and people were like, were you at the pleasure house? And the guy would be like, uh. Oh, God. But I mean, that's the thing.

And that's what Viseris. And like, Vassar says, so what? When Otto's like, you're, the princess is at the pleasure house, he's like, so what? And then I love how you were making Christ do the play-by-play much with the way that Vassarist is like, you got to say it, Otto. If you're going to walk into my room to keys my daughter or something. You got to do the whole thing. Speak it plainly. Yeah.

He's like, so what if she was there? And then he's like, well, she was, you know, fucking her uncle publicly. That's a bummer. But so I guess the rules are she can go. and observe. And there were many, like, well-dressed lords there. So it's like, it's not a problem that be in the pleasure house.

It's a problem as a royal woman to lose your virginity before the political marriage that you're supposed to have. Mal, any comments on Damon's performance anxiety? Many, most of which I'm afraid to make on a podcast, I think you two summed it up well. I thought that the flimsy nature of the disguise was notable to me as well.

Even before he removes the beanie, we have this moment where Renira fleeing from the Flaming Hot Cheeto vendor runs into a member of the Gold Close who recognizes her immediately. Like it's no secret that they will be recognizable. These are two of the most recognizable people in the entire world. Damon himself, whether he actually said air for a day, is not relevant. I mean, it is more broadly, but in this sense is not. What's relevant is that his exploits in pleasure houses make their way back into the red keep,

and he knows that. And so he brought her into that situation, knowing that. I think that is true. I also think it's true, as you said, that they have genuine passion for each other. These are people who are drawn to each other magnetically. The way when she is on the marriage tour receiving all of these suitors, she has no interest in, what is she doing? She's holding the necklace.

that he gave her. When he walks in, fresh haircut, shiny armor, gray scale riddled crap feeder hammer in his hand, she is looking at him with lust in her eyes. And he looks at her with much the same expression in the godswood leader. So they are drawn to each other. You can feel that magnetism in that sequence. The exact play-by-play of what is unfolding with the removing of the hat, the kissing, pinning against the wall. I have such detailed notes on this scene. You would not believe it. Save it for the deep time.

We got a deep time for that. Fear not. Taking off her, opening her shirt, taking down her pants, turns around on the wall, then she turns back and kiss him and that's when he pulls away. And I think it is a mixture of...

Do you think we could put the old BS report warning at the top of House of R this week where it's like, this is a free-flowing conversation that occasionally touches some much. That's a good idea. It's a good idea. You know, we did see him in episode one under Wadjo and I have subsequently taken to calling his cloak of shame. So he has had some performance issues before and that's

okay. It happens. Nothing to be ashamed of. I'm only pointing it out because it seems like an issue for him. And that's, you know, I would say that Damon is a character riddled by desire or driven by desire, but riddled by self-doubt. And I think that this scene embodies a lot of the episode his subsequent conversation with Vassaris in the throne room later. After talking with you two, I am convinced that his ultimate goal, like, is I knew if I did this, we would get caught because I was going to expose us. And that this is what Viseris would say and that this is the only way I could reveal to him like what the choice should be, which is to marry me off to her and create the super Targaryen.

The thing he says in the book, which is even a little tougher than what he said, in this episode. He says, give the girl to me to wife, who else would take her now? That's what he says to the Sarah's. But I think it's a little bit more complicated.

Damn, come on, man. But I think it's more complicated than that, right? Mallory, hit it. All of that is there. True. And hard to ignore. But I couldn't stop thinking about the conversation

that Damon and Renera had after the welcome home party. God's one. What a location for that little shind? They're getting as much use out of that wherewood tree as they can. They're like, what can we set under this tree? One of the things that Damon says to Rainera, and that is a really, really rich and intriguing conversation

where Renera reveals and shares a lot about how she feels about marriage and childbirth and all of these very real things that are weighing on her deeply and that she is rebelling against. And one of the things that Damon says to her is you cannot live your life in fear or you will forsake the best parts of it. And I think that that is as central to his character and as central to what is unfolding here as the ambition and any sort of scheming or striving because he's like a very spirited person. And it's a lot of this second son little brother energy where so much of his life has been defined by needing to prove his worth. and trying to earn other people's affection and doing the things that makes him happy.

The way that he says, like, fucking is a pleasure, that's a person who means that. Spends a lot of his time living inside of that idea. And I think that that's a thing that he wants Renira to embrace and really experience, too.

But more than one thing can be true at once. That's why he's an interesting character. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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He suggests that they do that. So my question to you, Joe, is, how scandalous would it be if Damon was just like a suitor and that there wasn't the added component of, did Damon take her virginity? I think, so if we're ranking like the scandals here, the options, I think that Damon, if Damon didn't have, already have a wife and wanted to marry his niece, Reneira. Damon's first wife is...

She's a real problem, right? But if he wanted to marry Reneer, that's super normal. Like could not be more normal in House Targaryen, right? Right, Mallory? I'm not wrong about this. Positively tame. Yeah, I wasn't sure whether that had societally been starting to age out a little bit. But I guess not.

The Targarys are still marrying like siblings to siblings. Like it's totally fine. No prob. The question of Sir Kristen and Damon, like pre-marriage. I think either, I think in terms of marriage, in terms of your wish last week, Chris, of like, can she marry good old Chris and Cole? that's way more scandalous than marrying her uncle, is marrying, you know, someone of lower station on the King's Guard, etc. So, like, if premarital sex is off the table and it's not,

it's on the table, it's on the, in the pleasure palace on, you know, whatever. But, like, when you say it's on the table, you mean like it's on the painted table. I do. Any other surface that they can find? Yeah. Orgy tapestry you could possibly find. Yeah. Like, that's, that's, and I don't know what I'm genuinely, like, we're recording.

this little early, I'm really curious to see what happens with the discourse. We're not here to talk about the discourse, but I don't know how clutch the pearls are going to be. This is something that we've been trying to like ready people for. This is a Targaryen show. Like, incest is everywhere. I thought everybody was going to lose it after the first

episode with the jousting dying childbirth montage. And people seem to roll with it. So what's a night at the pleasure house with your uncle, you know? I guess the question Like, if you want to relate this to Jamie and Circe and, like, how people felt about that and that show versus this show, like, that was presented as shameful. And this incest, Targaryen incest is supposed to be pretty, like, normalized at this time.

And there's also the age gap. And it doesn't, like, I'm not clutching pearls necessarily, but I feel like people are going to want to talk about how Damon is essentially groomed Rainier, which is not true. I'm sure it will come up. Yeah. So, I don't know. The truth is, is they do not do the deed, right? So, Reneira coming back and she's probably thinking to herself, you know, well, I'm going to just deny everything until I'm like, because ultimately at the end of the day, this is hearsay.

Why does she go so far as to swear on her mother, her dead mother that nothing happened to Allison? Were you surprised when it happened when she said? Did that? Like, I'm not surprised that she doesn't trust Allison, like, after everything that's happened. Like, they, you know, at the start of the episode, you're seeing these women, like, come back together in a way that's very, like, hopeful, opening up to each other, grabbing each other's hands, talking about how they missed each other. And so you're like, okay, are we moving back to her? Okay.

We're going to run out of our dragon and eat cake together. Like, let's do it, ladies. And then this happens. And I was watching, yeah, going, why are, why? Reneira, why are you... Like, I really... I feel like... My read on Allison in this episode

is that if Reneer had told her the truth, Allison would have helped her and protected her. But I can understand why Reneer would feel that that was not the case. I feel like Allison came at her with real horror in her eyes and judgment in her words and on her face. And we have a lot of shots in this episode of Allison, you know, gazing out at the sept.

I think there's a lot of real tragic stuff happening with Alicin's in this episode. and I have a lot of sympathy for her. But inside of specifically that scene with Renira, I think that Renera sensed that this was not something that Allison would approve of or understand. And like even in that bench sequence at the earlier in the episode at that party

where there is this tenderness and sort of rediscovered affection between them that we can assume at least is the first time they've, experienced anything like that with each other for years based on where we saw them last episode, right? Yeah, yeah. But even inside of that, there is such a tension point over this idea of, you know, being made to produce airs. And, and Reneera is saying that with such disdain. And of course, that is Allison's circumstance. And we see that play out on her face in real time to the point where Rennar even, like, grabs her hand and apologizes and says she's sorry. Yeah.

Yeah. And I thought that one of the most compelling parts of this episode in terms of really reinforcing this theme and this idea was this cutting between. Because you have the contrast of what happens with Rainer and Damon and then Reneer and Kristen, which I also think is interesting and notable in terms of the very raucous public sensory overload nature of the Damon scene and the very intimate, personal, quiet, private Kristen's sequence, the way he folds and looks at his white cloak. like you're not just addressing a person. He's uncloaking his vows. But

we are cutting between Allison. We see her, that conversation on the bench. We see the look on her face as she is rocking their new child, Helena, the baby who won't stop crying. She is drinking a potion before bed. I presume that was a sleeping, a sleeping potion of some sort. She looks miserable and deeply lonely throughout this entire

episode, the bathing sequence, she's summoned to Viseris's chambers. And the camera is above, so we see these sores on his back, but also this vacant expression in her eyes. And I was wondering if that shot was because, like, Patty wasn't there that day, so they needed, like, a back double. I actually also wondered that if for, like, everyone's comfort or whatever. But, like, also, I mean, to your point, Mal, like, that angle makes her look. So pinned down. Oh, yeah. So I agree with all of that.

I think you're dead on about all of that. Especially, like, when she's jiggling Helena on her hip, the wall, the window looks like a cage, like looks absolutely like a cage. It's like she's trapped and she's feeling trapped. I still feel, I don't, I'm like, I'm curious what you think, Chris. Like, I still feel like, yes, Alicent is judging her and would judge her and wouldn't understand. She wouldn't be like, that's fine that you went out with Damon.

But I think if Rineer was like, I don't know. I was confused. I got swept up in the moment, like something like that. I don't think Allison would run to her father. I don't think that's what she would do in this moment. This is the interesting thing with what they're trying to do on this show with like the time span. So one of the fascinating things that happens to you as you age out of childhood and into adulthood is how you define yourself.

And is Alison defining herself as Viseras's wife, as Reneer's friend, as Otto's daughter? You know, is she defining herself as the queen? you know, as the mother of the would-be possible heir of the throne, you know, like, there are so many different questions of identity that go into, especially this point in people's lives, even if in such a fucked up world as Game of Thrones, like, still, you're like, huh, like, do I think of myself as this or do I think of myself as that? So, Joe, I take your point, like, if Reneer had been, like, honestly, like, I got kind of hammered and, like, next thing I knew I was in this crazy place and, you know, within my family, it's not

out of the question for the stuff like this to happen, but like, I'm glad I didn't do it. I don't know. I mean, would she have been more scandalized if she had been like, and then I came home and immediately lost my virginity to Sir Kristen? Like, how far could the truth go there, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. I think what, so I agree, Joe, I don't think she would have just run off and tattled and spread the reveal around. I'm with you there. To me, what I guess feels more germane than that hypothetical is the fact that we don't get to see, because Reneer doesn't feel like this is a person she can tell the truth to anymore. And we hear Allison say, Chris, to that point of how do you think about yourself and who you are and who you've become?

I think this is something that Allison is tormented by right now. And it's really devastating because she says when she's telling Roneira that she's glad she's home, she says, I find I have few friends lately. I like to believe I'm the lady Allison, but all anyone sees when they look at me now is the queen. And again, so if you think about those cutting scenes in that contrast, where she's trying to tell her, Reneira earlier like, oh, what misery, all of these men vying for your favor. And Reneer is saying, to me, that is misery because this is not what I want. I don't want to be a pawn and someone else's political game. And Allison's like, I didn't have a choice at all. Right. At least she is some choice. Yeah. But to Reneer, that's not, that's like small progress or no progress at all because the

reality is she feels trapped in her life just as Allison does. And I think that's one of the tragic things unfolding here is that actually both of these women are trapped by their circumstance and will will they be able to live in that truth together or will it drive them apart? And so Reneer, just for that night, gets to not only experience freedom, and we hear her literalize that and say that. Like, I just want, I don't want to think about my, the burdens of my inheritance for tonight. I just want to, I want to have fun. I want to be free. That freedom, but also that pleasure. And you can see her in real time, both with Damon and then with Kristen, like coming alive in her own body and really like, experience.

experiencing what it means to grow up and be a woman and feel that spark with somebody else. And that's not something that is a part of Allison's life. And that's, like, devastating. So I thought that was all really effective and well done. And obviously, it's a scandalous and salacious episode. But I thought it was like a pretty thematically powerful one, too. I want to circle back there to Chris's. I think Chris is, I think you're right, Mallon. And I think Chris's question is really key here of like, how does Allison define herself? because I think it's so interesting that the show wants us and wants Allison to ask that question of herself in a way that the book decided it did not have space for. And that's what is the benefit of spending these few episodes with these younger actresses in this role because like this time for Alicent especially is something we don't have any context for in the books.

And so I really appreciate that this show is deepening the interior lives of these young women on the. the road to what's going to come next. It's so much more nuanced and so much more, you know, with love and respect to George, he was trying to write a fast, jaunty little history and actually finish a book. Like, it's just so much more time and complexity to a character. What I love about someone like Allison at this point is, like, we've seen her last week. I think Chris noted this last week, like, play the game. She can play it. She can steer Vassaris in a certain direction. she's not even playing the game this week. She's just trying to figure out

if she wants to even be in the game or what her role in the game is and all that sort of stuff. And I think that's really interesting. Let's talk a little bit about Allison's father. So quite a comeuppance for Otto this week. He winds up being... Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Yeah. And he was playing the game on the edge and he fell off the edge. You know, like he was definitely pushing his agenda and people started to figure it out and really blew up his spot. I guess my... question to you, Mal, is when Renira is like, fine, you want me to marry Corliss's son, you got

to clean up your own house then. Obviously, Vissaris has been looking at Otto Eskew going back at least last episode, if not more, and that comprises, you know, years of time. I think that he can look at marrying Allison as the ultimate act of his own will, since he turned down, you know, marrying Corliss and Renice's son. So, or daughter. So he is obviously like, that was an act of free will, but maybe is now looking at that

is like, was that sort of orchestrated by Otto? Now he's got this gossip monger who's telling him about what his daughter is doing and having his daughter followed and he's just like, what is going on with you? But I guess my question is like, do you think that he fully understood,

Vesaris, understood the sort of machinations of Otto or did Reneerra, yeah, did Reneer blow his mind with her? This guy's fucked up. And if you want me to do what you want me to do, you got to get him out of here. I think somewhere in between. I think that this had been a realization and a reckoning that was building over time. And the conversation with Reneira was the final straw that forced Vassaris to act.

But that's like, again, this key aspect of his character and his arc. It always comes down to the moment where he is forced to act, where he has no choice but to make a decision because of a pitch or an appeal or a plea from somebody else. And so the fact that actually I think this had been dawning on him definitively sooner and it took a moment of this tension and consequence for him to actually do something about it says a lot about their relationship. But it's in a sad way too because I think that Viseras, this connects to that loneliness discussion, actually has a lot of gratitude toward auto.

And he voices that here. He says, like, you taught me how to be king. He would have been utterly lost without this guy. And that's a very real thing. But it's also a real thing that Otto has manipulated and led him toward decisions for quite a long stretch of time here. So Reneer is not even the first person to bring this to his attention. Like look back to episode one when Damon is saying, why this guy instead of me? And Vassaris in that moment is saying an unwavering and loyal hand.

And Damon says a second son who stands to inherit nothing. He doesn't cease for himself. So these seeds have been planted. in episode three, Vassaris starts to vocalize some of it when he pushes back on the Agon agenda and says enough of the fucking politicking. The Agonne agenda. The Agen agenda. But I was like, whoa.

Like actually said out loud, whoa, when he brought up his father, Baylon, the Spring Prince, and went that far back. I didn't get that. Can you guys help me out with that? What was going on there? So, you know, we didn't have time actually to really get into the, to bring up. bring out Baylon last week. And honestly, we don't really now either.

But he's a very, like all members of the Targaryen line, like, they're always a shadow and a looming specter in these people's lives. And Baylon died after a royal hunt, which is why I, you know, thought we might talk about it a little bit last week. And maybe that was something that was on the Saras's mind in some capacity. But he was not initially Jeharis's heir. That was Renis's father. Baylon was the second son.

And after his older brother's death, he became the heir, beloved by all, spring prince, Baylon the brave, and just dropped dead because of his appendix exploded. Burst belly. Burst belly, a great Georgism there. And that is when Otto moved into power, as we hear in this moment. And the way that Fissaris was looking that far back into that depth of history, Jaharis's reign. not even his own, to say, when was the point where you started thinking about yourself instead of the realm instead of me?

And like, to your point earlier, Chris, about how Otto is trying to work Vassaris, like, what's the most effective way to control somebody? It's not to constantly make them do things they don't want to do. It's to make them think they do want to do the thing. And that's why I think hearing Viceris talk about Alicantir was so damning, much more so than everything with Reneira, honestly, because he's saying, this was the thing, the only thing that pulled me out of my grief. And for that to have had some sort of ulterior, sinister motive is like a devastating thing to have to confront. What do you think Viseris' first clue that maybe Allison wasn't in love with him? Was it when he, like, tried to force her to look at him while they're having sex and she gives him a fake smile and then, like, turns away from him again?

Was it that? That's such a weird, like, vibe where he's just like, I'm here with all my, like, leprone. see nurses getting bathed. And then I was like, I got it. You know, this doesn't, this is a group. Drinking wine in the tub. Like, he's constantly, come on, who among us?

Constantly guzzling the booze. Do you know what the best feeling in the whole world is, Mallory? Joe's like, I love a glass of wine in the tub. Yeah, why? So do I. So no judgment. This is not about wine in the tub.

It's about Fasaurus. The best feeling in the whole world is the Bull Durham. It's the hot shower, ice cold beer at the same time. Wow. Yeah, yeah. You get like a shambah. I'm paying a beers in the shower.

Oh, my God. He brought Costner into my way. What are you going to do? Now I'm thinking about Crash Davis and won't be able to concentrate on anything else. Now I'm thinking about Costner ironing and his boxers. Thanks, Chris. The thing with the Viceris firing auto scene, part of it is like, I feel like he's building up his file for HR. He's like, this is why I had to let this guy go.

Here are all the previous offenses documented. But it's also very classic Viscarer. to try to please everyone and please no one at the same time. Like, he's trying to please Reneer here by getting rid of Otto, but also telling Otto, but also telling Otto you were good in these ways, but also bad in these ways. And Runeer, okay, I'll do what you want here, but now you got to marry Lenore, like, all this sort of stuff. That's the half measure, the shitty two stabs to kill the stag move from Viseris.

I really love, like, you know, it's Agon the Conqueror, the Mad King. Vassaris the people pleaser. He's just like, he's just a guy who just can't help and help. It's a better moniker than, you know, maggot fingers or whatever other names he might earn. Joe, I'm glad you mentioned the stag and the double thrust and the hunt there

because like that whole, that show, that play acting, were you guys struck? I was so struck by, first of all, how many of the scenes between Vassaris and Damon have taken place in the throne room? Going back to the premiere. Right. It's so interesting to me that every time Vassar's faces his brother in some sort of tense moment, he needs to be standing in a hall surrounded by statues of Targary and Kings, the iron throne looming behind him to remind Damon, but also honestly himself, yes, that he is the one in charge. And you mentioned the crown, Joe. So he receives, Damon comes in and he's looking great. He's got the fresh cut. He's got his driftwood crown. on. He's holding, he's in his armor.

He's holding the cat's hammer. Do you think he got that on Etsy? Like, where did that crown come from? Oh, no, they totally gave me this. This is just like a gift. All the people in the stepstones, they were like coming up to me, tears in their eyes. Coralus crowns him in fire and blood, notable. Yeah. But we have,

we see demon coming in, just looking like, flying in on his dragon, amazing. Coming in, having defeated his enemy, seasoned in battle. we hear elsewhere in this episode Vesaris, who's nostalgic, talking back to their mother, saying, like, I wasn't the warrior. I wasn't the one who could do these things. And Vesaris has to receive these decorative adornments. He receives his crown. He receives Blackfire. We are coming off an episode where we see Damon Weald, Dark Sister, the other ancestral Valerian steel sword of House Targaryen and cut through legions of foes with, frankly, ease. Viseris is using Blackfire as a walking state. It's a walking stick. You pointed us out a couple of episodes ago, Mallory,

that he was, like, leading on it. But this episode, he was, it was just like, it was a cane, it's a cane for him, this, this ancestral sword. It's, it's a tough move. You know, you mentioned it like where those, where those conversations always take place. I don't think I've ever seen Damon the least bit afraid of Fissaros. I don't even think when Fissaris has that dagger to his throat,

he's like, you're not going to hear this. And he is suggesting some truly, you know, earth-shaking shit where he's just like, you should marry her off to me, you know, like, and he's just like, I'll fucking kill you.

And Damon's just like, no, you're not. I don't know why. I don't know what the hold is that he has over him or whether he just thinks that Frizzar's is just

ultimately, like, weak sauce, but it is kind of notable. Maybe it's Matt Smith's performance. He never seems the least bit shaken by Fassar's. He was flat out on the floor

and seemed way more in control of that situation than the king. Yeah, for sure. Who becomes hand? And is it hard? I would just imagine like when you fire your hand, there's just a lot of like, you're very politically vulnerable.

So is Corliss a logical, like if we're going to truly unite the House Valerian with House Targaryen? Coralus should get this job. Obviously, my personal pick would be Lionel, strong. But where does he go next, Joe? I don't think, how do I answer that, Chris?

Oh, because you do. know? Yeah. Aren't I'm not so stanza that? I guess I keep forgetting. I do think we can safely say the show has to this point set up no sensible alternative other than Lionel Strong. That's the only actual choice that Viseris has to make. Whether he makes that choice is another matter.

Corliss, we're on step one of working to bridge that divide with the Reneira-Lanor marriage pact. But Corliss is multiple years deep into giving Vesiris. Paris to very public seahorse-shaped middle fingers. Thailand and Lannister arrived very recently. Mellos is basically like their maggot and T, like, Instacart guy. That's not going to happen.

And Beesbury is only there as like a sound, a sound bike guy, you know? Not only your choice. I don't know. Like, um, the, can I just talk about Mester Mellos on the Moon Tea for a second? Yeah, please. I completely understand.

Is that what we call it? Yeah, that's what it's called in short time right. I completely understand that we're trying to keep the circle of confidence tight, right? Real small, small circle here. I just still would not have sent an 80-year-old man to give my daughter some moon tea. It's not what I would have done. I completely agree with you. I have a, like, we can wrap up soon, but I had a question, this is sort of an odd scene.

Masaria. So, I guess, moved out of Dragonstone, right? So here's my take on what's going on here. I think she hasn't seen Damans since she walked out of that scene in Dragonstone. And I think she's back at King's Landing. I think there's an implication that she owns property. She tells them to pay for the room on the way out.

The first thing you should do once you get a little bit of money. Yeah, invest in the street of silk and get some property. She's also turned herself into something of a spy master, which is really fun. Because you mentioned the little bird. What's the chain, when that kid shows up at the palace, they say it's a message from the white worm. The white worm is one of Masaria's names in the book.

Lady Misery is another fun one. And then later we see that kid come in when she's with Damon and give her some money. So she's the one who sent the little bird to Otto. Did she do that to fuck with Damon because she's pissed at him at what happened with Dragonstone? or some other thing, or just to earn some money because she doesn't care.

Like, I don't know exactly what her motivation was, but she's back in town. She's no longer a sex worker. She's now some kind of spy master. Right? And she's been doing this for some time. Because one of the things

that Otto says to Viseris is, as your hand, I must maintain trusted sources of information. And this person's never steered me wrong. Never led me astray. So, Masaria and her little birds have been feeding auto-reliable intel

for some time now. I have one more like kind of like help me out here question. I obviously am familiar with Bravo's in the main show.

Oysters, clams and cockles. But marrying into the Bravo's family or whatever like they are they are the big bank of this world

as much as they are in the future. Like right? The Iron Bank of Bravo's like that's already a thing that they have money there.

There's been a long history with Targaryans sort of having difficulty with Bravo's because the Bravo see, the free cities, hate the Targaryans because they come from Valeria, so they hate the Targaryens. I don't know that they would necessarily like the Valerians that much better necessarily because they're also an old Valeria family, but at least they don't have dragons, I suppose. But yeah, this is a big, this has been a tricky. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that's true. This would be like a tricky diplomatic relationship between like a daintant between Bravo. than the Targaryen. So if Corleys gets Bravo on his team, that's just a major unbalancing of the scales in terms of these families,

for sure. Okay. Well, any other closing notes that you wanted to drop on this episode? I know obviously you'll go really deep on this

on House of R on Tuesday. Mallory, Mallory, did you do any research for where do X hands go, aside from being beheaded? Where do whores go?

Where do X. You know, yeah, I actually was thinking about that since Chris had expressed an interest in chatting about that. I was just wondering, like, is he just hanging around? Because his daughter's still the queen. So does he, like, is he exiled?

Right. Royal father-in-law? Yeah, right. There's some options, right? Like, Tywin just went back to Castorley Rock. He was the Mad King's hand, right? And then Jamie Lancer gets appointed the King's Guard. And Tywin's like, fine, I'll go back to my beautiful estate.

And I don't know, plot your downfall, I guess. Brennan Rivers is a hand that was sent to the wall. That's something that happened to a hand of the king. I was thinking about Roger, our guy Lord Roger Barathean a lot, because that's like pretty recent Targaryan history since that happened, early, admittedly, in Jahars's reign, but still, like, a hand who overplayed his hand made way too risky of a push. And Chris, actually, you'll love this because this connects to incest

and Targaryans liking to fuck each other. Full circle, baby. Jay Harris and his sister, the good Queen Alessane, they were brother and sister who really wanted to marry each other no matter what other people told them. That's actually what led to the doctrine of exceptionalism, which you've heard us talk about before. This actual writing into law of the idea that, yes, correct,

incest is bad, the faith of the seven prohibits it, except we're different, we're the Targaryen so we can fuck each other all we want, back off. And Lord Roger, who married Jehers, his mother was not in favor of this match and thought it would lead to the realm rebelling against them

and citing the rage of the faith again and ended up going through all sorts of plots and schemes, schemes and plots our favor there and ultimately was removed as hand but Jeharris who as we've noted before was named the conciliator and gave a lot of grace

and second chances to people eventually welcomed him back into the fold but with multiple conditions and a really dope let me walk you by my dragon in the courtyard to remind you that I have this and that you shouldn't fuck with me again. So it's possible to maintain some sort of relationship, but it's also very possible that you end up like Ned, beheaded, or you end up like Lucas Harroway, the hand of Magar the cruel, beheaded because Magar thought that he was working against him. It really seems like

it's one of two options. You get to beheaded. Or you go chill for a bit. And then you go home. Find your way involved in political plots in the future. Ryan Redwine, who started this season of television as the Lord Commander, was a notoriously shitty hand of the king. Couldn't last a year. Didn't make it a year. And then got eaten by crustaceans on the beach.

So they just put him back on the Kingsguard. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Great work if you can get it. One last thing before we go on this note. And I just want to say, rewatching this episode, it's like Feast for the Eyes. There's a lot going on. But actually my favorite shot and maybe performance is from Risa Fons's Auto High Tower right before he goes into Vissaris to tell him this.

It's a slightly overhead shot of him, and it's just him weighing like, is this the move? Yeah. Is this the move? What's the move here? And the look on his face when it gets fired, and he's like, that wasn't the move. I chose poorly. Yeah, exactly. I really love that.

The only other thing I was going to say is just the Bracken Blackwood dispute for book readers. Great to see on the screen. What a treat. It's interesting. I mean, like that that was the original. That was the kid and the other guy. Yeah. Really fun. Those guys worked out their differences.

We were produced by Steve Allman today, as always. And it was wonderful to talk to the two of you, Joanna and Mallory. You can hear them on Tuesday on House of R doing a deep dive. Just hide your kids for the kids. that one. Don't because apparently, there are no rules. You can listen to The Watch on Sunday nights as well, and we'll be back next week with episode five.

It's a great chat with you. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear.

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