House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 7 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Keep a sharp eye and get ready to dive deep into the seventh episode of 'House of the Dragon' with Mal and Joanna! First, they give their brief overall impressions of this important episode (06:08). Then, they dive into the Dragonpit and go deep into the plot details and analysis of the episode (14:41). Later, they give out the episode's awards, as well as look into book spoilers and see what they can predict for the future (02:47:43). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. You're going too far. I. if I'd done, but what was expected of me. Forever, upholding the kingdom, the family, the law.

Will you flout it all to do as you please? Allison, let her go. Where is duty, where his sacrifice, is trampled under your pretty foot again. Release the blade, Allison. And now you take my son's fight into even that you feel entitled. Exhausting, wasn't it?

Hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness. Into the ringerverse. here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to high tide, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom.

Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me we play an ugly game, and now for the first time, she sees that I have the determination to win it. It's my house of our... We're jealous

Joanna Robinson I think it's fitting that that just keeps getting spookier and spookier considering we are now in October. Yeah. Yeah.

We need to really draw it out like a ghost whispering working title. Next week we'll break out our goal. You know? Yeah.

Halloween nears. Working title. Wow. Wow. We are here today. Of course. To dive a dap into House of the Dragon episode seven, Drift Mark, written by Kevin Loud, directed by Miguel Sopachnik.

But before we stroll down to a private patch of beach, some programming reminders. The Midnight Boys. We'll be back with you tomorrow to break down episode five of Andor. What an incredible television. show. Cannot wait for that pod. On Thursday, Ben Lindbergh will be back to chat about Shee Hulk. Episode 8, the penultimate shehulk. On Friday, speaking of penultimate episodes, Joe and I will be back with the House of Our Deep dive into episode seven of Rings of Power. Already episode seven, I cannot believe

it. Where is the time gone? So sad. And then on Sunday, Joanna and I will be back with the Lord Commander of our King's Guard, Christopher Ryan, Sir Chris. And thank you to everyone who's tweeting at us after this episode seven, Talk the Thrones, to spell Chris with a cue. Thank you. Keep it coming.

I hadn't seen those. That's incredible. That will, of course, be Talk the Thrones on Hot D. Episode 8. Joe, how can the people follow all of that? Well, I really wish they would just do themselves a solid and subscribe. to the podcast on any platform they prefer,

but maybe Spotify, make it Spotify. If they do so also, I should mention one thing. I mean, there's plenty that you just mentioned, but I heard a rumor that Van Leithin and I are talking a little werewolf by night this week as well.

Oh! Do you know my first pod ever with Van, and also the first time I ever talked to Van, was a Halloween pod last year, so I'm really excited to get back into the horror lane with Van. Yeah, full circle. Yeah, so follow a podcast. But also, we're on, what social media platform do you use? Is it perhaps Mallory's favorite peach? Or could it possibly be one that people still actually use? Like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, at Ring reverse on all of those. Follow all of those feeds. And most especially, if you're Mallory Rubin's mother, cherish beloved mother,

of our mother of dragons, you can email us Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. I wish you would. I wish you would. Just email us hobbits and dragons at gmail.com.

Great emails this week as always. But you guys are just like really killing it on the email front. So thank you so much. Keep the Raven scrolls coming. Including scrolls

about the Baltimore Ravens which I am most interested in those emails. Last programming reminder, bear in mind, of course, is always our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning today because this chat, this here podcast, will feature plot details from the most recent episode of Hot D. That's the seventh episode, Drift Mark,

all of House of the Dragon to date. Anything from Game of Thrones is on the table. On the book front, we will be incorporating book canon from a song of ice and fire and fire and blood throughout the pod for historical context. parallels, lore insights, etc. But anything that comes in the future in fire and blood, we will be saving for a separate section at the end of the pod.

You will have another spoiler warning on the brink of that. Okay. Yeah. It's time for our opening snapshot. It's time to rally the realm. Oh, God. Joe? Yeah.

Quick overall impressions of episode. Devon Drift Mark. What'd you think? So I really liked it. I liked this episode a great deal. I thought it was an excellent, excellent showcase for, you know, our adult actors, especially. And the kids are phenomenal, too. We will talk about the visuals in a second, but I just want to say that, like, I didn't have a problem.

I don't know what to tell you. I didn't have a problem with it. And it wasn't until a couple hours before. the episode was going to drop that I started to hear from people that this was going to be a big talking point. And then it did feel like it swallowed the conversation of the episode itself in a kind of frustrating way. But I thought the script was phenomenal. A lot of big things happen here, obviously, a lot of shifting power movements. And then, like, I think it's no coincidence.

And we talked about this on Talk the Thrones a little bit on Sunday. No coincidence that so many of the lines from the trailer that we got for the season were from this episode. And I think partially that's because I think they shot this one first. But also there's just juice everywhere. Juice all over the place. What did you think, Mallory? Is that a fun, cool thing to say, juice everywhere? As you like to say sometimes, phrasing.

Oh, God. Tell me. Oh, God. Wow, that's a record. We're not even 10 minutes in and we've earned our first Dear Me from Steve. Like, why wasn't bees invited to the funeral? That's my question. Where's my guy Beesbury when you need him, you know?

I know. He would have had a lot to say. He would have had a lot to add to the soundboard if he had been invited to Driftmark, alas. And when Vassaris confuses Allison for Emma, maybe Beesbury would have felt seen and known in Dementia Town. Anyway, what were you going to say about this episode? God's just being good. You mentioned how many lines of this episode come from from? the trailer. Joe, I love a trailer, as you know, and that was just a thrill to see all of those

little delicious glances and sound bites that we had parsed for clues right here stitched together. This was my favorite episode of the season and contained a handful of my favorite scenes from the season overall, the week, everything with Damon and Runira, Amid claiming Vagar, an eye for an eye. I mean, a lot of the things that I was looking forward to the most are in this episode and really enjoyed it. Also just felt like the episode had a momentum and a flow and a crispness that was drastically enhanced because we didn't have to deal with another time jump here. It was similar to how I felt about episode five coming right on the heels of episode four. Like no time has passed between episode six and seven, we just pick up. And that really does help to enhance

the sensation that we are just living inside of these characters' lives rather than having to really drastically reset. So I think that picking up right where we had left off was a big part of why I enjoyed this so much in addition to just the substance of the scenes themselves. Should we talk for a second, though, about the fact that they have made another episode of Game of Thrones that nobody could see? It's tough. Like, I... Oh, God. I mean, we didn't have that problem.

The issue that I remember you telling me off the screeners was you couldn't hear anything, not that you couldn't see anything. So like, God. I could barely, I could barely hear the first like 20 minutes of the episode. So it was a lot better when I, when I rewatched and replayed, it was easier to make out the dialogue and then certainly a lot better on Sunday night. But I had some trouble with the opening stretches that were set by the water hearing. It reminded me a bit of when they have a date on The Bachelor or The Bachelorette that's next to a waterfall or in the ocean.

And you just can't hear anything anybody says. Maybe that was just me, though, because I haven't really seen people talking about this. And I wouldn't say that hearing is my greatest strength. On the visual front, the darkness of the episode, I often really struggle with this. And it freaks me out when there are large stretches of episodes that I can't see. I've told you this before. I've shared this with our listeners before. one of the most anxiety-inducing podcasting stretches of my career in my life was the long night.

Of course, this is a infamous episode of Thrones on the lighting front. We were watching it at our office to immediately go do Talk the Thrones Live. And I was like, how can I go live and talk about something that I couldn't see? Does anyone know who's alive? Who made it out of the episode? Oh, my God. So stressful. So it's something that I'm prone to struggling with.

I think it really helped me that I got a warning from our colleagues, Riley, McAtee, and Zach Cramm, who both watched the screener during the daytime and had an issue with it, sent me a warning. I watched this at like 11 o'clock at night at a pitch dark room with a properly calibrated TV and I had no issues at all. However, I would like to acknowledge that you shouldn't demand of your audience that sort of viewing setup in order for people. people to be able to see. So I did not have an issue and I was relieved, but a lot of people did. And that's, that's not good. That's a problem. And I, you know, I've seen like the photos that they took or the videos that they took of their screen. Like it, for some people, however, their TV is calibrated. However, the particular compression rate came through on the streaming or what, you know, whatever the light source was had issue watching. And like, again, we've talked over and over about

how you can set yourself up to win to watch something like this. But I, you know, I, you know, I am a little astonished that Miguel Sopachnik, who directed this episode and also directed the long night, would find himself in this bind once again, especially because we have, I know that they shot this day for night. And we know that because we've seen promo photos of the scene on the beach, and it is blaring sunlight, right? And also you can just tell by watching that they shot it day for night. And there are ways in which perhaps the darkness helps cover, you know, makes Vagar look

even better because the digital, digital effect looks even better at night. I could see that. I'm just kind of shocked that we're here again after all the protestations after the long night. And again, like, that was such an... I had a really hard time seeing the long night, and I remember a bunch of our friends were at a guild's greeting

that they did where they showed the long night. I think it like Gromans, like that, one of the major theaters in downtown L.A. and they were like, it looked amazing. And you're like, okay, I'm sure it did in a movie theater. I rewatched the long night now in 4K at home in ideal conditions. I'm like, this is incredible. But that's not how people necessarily consume TV when they're sitting down on a Sunday night.

Exactly. Ove, it was really, it was something to track the HBO Max Twitter replies on Sunday night. Oh, my God. Well, they were ready. I mean, that's the thing is like I had heard. I had heard from some people on the inside that they were braced for. And I heard about it a couple hours before. And that's why I was tweeting a couple hours before.

Like, close your drapes. Make sure your settings are good. Like, whatever. So, yeah, they were braced. They were ready. They had that copy paste reply ready for Twitter. Steve is going to do the same thing when people tweeted us and say, why is this pod three hours? Steve will reply.

This was an intentional creative decision. Creative decision. Oh, God. God's being good. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right. Is it time for our episode seven deep dive? Should we head into the dragon pit?

Please. It does not matter. Steve, will you do me a favor? When we stop doing House of the Dragon go back to like and or whatever, can we find a way to keep the Mallory Dragon screech on the sound word? I will do my utmost. I promise. I believe in you.

Now we have a Joe Dragon screech. Oh, yeah, but it's not nearly as good. It's not, it's not like from the bottom of your soul. House of Remixed screeches, you know? Has a ring to it. Rolls right off the tongue. Working title, indeed. Oh, God.

All right. We will, of course, be going chronologically today because we don't want to miss a thing. Steve? Why do you do this to me? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to say? Stephen Tyler has declined the invitation to a funeral at Drift Mark. It's no respect.

I don't know how I could like make the sound effect of a subpoena, but okay. Okay. Well, we will begin where the episode begins at Lena's funeral. Everyone has gathered on Drift Mark. No time has passed between episodes. And here begins. There are other scenes where this is an even richer text, but here begins our close and careful tracking of who is standing next to whom,

who is looking at whom with some side eyes or some longing glances. This is a rich text across this entire hour of TV on that front. Joe, we got to glimpse for the first time Valerian Funeral Rights. This was a really interesting thing to see. Yeah, and I'm sure the like, well, we know because there are so many like worn, worn down sarcophagy at the bottom of the ocean here that the sarcophagus pole is a common practice. However, I'm not sure that this was a typical eulogy that you get at a Valerian funeral, right? No kidding. So our guy, Vamant, Corliss's brother in the show, brother, leading the ceremony, speaking Valerian,

shouting out the Merling King, as one does, if you're a member of House Velarion. And his service, very notably, was just laden with language about pure bloodlines and trueborn heirs. Subtle, this was not. The Lady Lena leaves two trueborn daughters on the shore. Though their mother will not return from her voyage, they will all remain bound together in blood. Salt course is through Valerian blood.

ours runs thick, ours runs true, and ours must never thin, looking over at Reneira, Luke, Jace, as he's saying this. Surely this is something that everybody who is present picks up on. If you track the glances, here's how I track them, the most significant, which is that Damon notices what Vaman is saying. Damon notices Reneura and Jace soaking in what Vaman is saying. and then Damon does what he does, which is laugh. And maybe you can call me a Damon apologist if you want,

but my read on that is that he is trying to pull everyone needs their own favorite murderer and mine is Damon Targaryen. Then he's trying to pull focus from Rainira and Jace and like make them less uncomfortable. That's my interpretation of the Damon laugh. yours is a charitable reads there's one I like as a fellow Damon apologist I love it and I'm here for it

I thought it felt like a little bit of a combo of nervous laughter and we see elsewhere in the episode when Vissaris and Damon are interacting that Damon hasn't quite processed all of his feelings

about this particular group of people but also clearly chuckling and responding to Vaman's not so thinly veiled digs in a way that almost made me think like he was like mocking or belittling him for not having the tact to know how to levy that kind of charge. He's like, he's like, this is when you're getting your takes off right now, right now, Maven. Okay. Right. And Damon, you know, famously really thinks about timing and

the appropriate moments to do things like, is it the right time? You have to ask yourself to fuck your niece at your wife's funeral at your in-laws home. You got to at least run through the those steps in your mind. These are the questions that plague all mankind. You know what I mean? When we say the characters need to be relatable, this is what we mean. Not related, but relatable, right? No. But yeah, okay, so my read is the most charitable. Another charitable will be like, look at this fucking guy. That's less, that's slightly less charitable, but still like, whatever. What I do not think is that Damon is

laughing because he didn't care about Lena at all. Like, I don't think that's the case at all. You know. Yeah. I agree. I don't think so either. Another, another moment that we get in this funeral sequence is auto high tower, back, finger in that hand of the king pin on his flip-down. Wow.

We might set a record today. This is what a start. Yeah. Joe. Yeah. We got an email about this. Because. Oh.

My God, sometimes I forget about the, God, I get startled. You just jumped out of my chair. You, like, reared back. That was so funny. All right. So this email comes from Fran. And Fran Rice, one question I have about the, is about the motivation for Viseras to bring Otto back his hand.

He let him go at a time when Renera wasn't even married yet, and her heirs were just hypothetical. It became clear to him then that Otto's main goal was to have him marry Allison and one day have one of his grandchildren rule. Now, in the present timeline, Alesson has pledged loyalty to her own house, has brought up the legitimacy of Reneer's children multiple times over, and is publicly rejected betrothing the kids for any type of peace. There are rumors now that Reneer's kids are bastards, and their looks do not work in their favor for dispelling that, which will undoubtedly cause her to lose more support. Why on earth would Viseras decide to bring Otto back at this time when he

would clearly be aligned to his own daughter, Allison. Mallory is a great question. Great question. Mallory, is there, like, is there info in the book that helps us answer this question? It is, there is a passage that we can turn to to gain some insights into what Viseris considered. And if he considered anything else, which he notably did and then made this decision anyway, which I think is even worse and more damning, honestly. Yeah.

Yeah. I will, I will read the. passage now. Quote, briefly he considered sending for Princess Renera. Who better to rule with him than the daughter he meant to succeed

him on the Iron Throne? But that would have meant bringing the princess and her sons back to King's Landing, where more conflict with the queen and her own brood would have been inevitable. He considered his brother as well until he recalled Prince Damon's previous stints on the

small council. Grandmaster Mello suggested bringing in some younger man and put forward several names, but his grace chose familiarity and recalled to court Sir Otto Hightower, the queen's father, who had filled the office before for both Vassaris and the old king. So he just in essence, end quote,

he just in essence went with the devil he knew over other devils he knows. He just made the easy, clear choice because I think you could watch the show and say Allison talks him into this, right? Like it's the only explanation in the show. That's not how it's presented at least there in the text. I mean, I would say that's the show's version because the only like prep we get for Otto's return is Lara saying you're going to write to your father, right, to Allison last week. You know, you mentioned at the top that you love that this episode takes up right after the last

so that we don't feel any like whiplash. This is the word. one pushback I would have on that where, like, I would have, I would have liked to have seen this conversation where Allison convinces Vassaris or, you know, something about how Vassaris came to this conclusion. Cassato just being back with the hand pin on is a big move, huge move for, for the scales of power in King's Landing. And it just happened off screen. So in addition to really wanting to see that, like that exchange between Allison and Vassaris

that we assume took place, I would love to. have seen the first reunion and interaction between Vassaris and Otto after their parting, which was so fraught. Like, what was it like for them to interact again?

And Otto and Allison, you know what I mean? So for him to just be there. Again, this is the tradeoff, you know, this is the, this is what Ryan Condal said at the beginning of the season, which is like,

I really have to hope the audience will just go with us as we hop and skip and jump through time. This is a very minimum, minimal time jump, but still this is the big crucial thing. I think we're just glossing in this particular episode. So, fair enough. One other funeral face, Agon, right?

It's brief, but, like, exquisite. Could it be more visibly bored? I roll, like, and Ty Tennant who plays, who's playing Agon this episode, like, has never looked more like his dad, I think, at that moment. It's a real David Tennant expression on his face. So I loved it. So good. We go from the funeral to the wake.

And what awake it is, Joe. Everybody is crammed into this courtyard scene, a little sardine can packed with awkwardness and charged attention. But before we talk about all that, quick dragon math moment here, because we get a very interesting shot of the two dragons in flight landing and five dragons cresting on the hillside from fire and blood quote so many dragons were present that septid eustace wrote that drift mark had become the new valeria like this is a historic yeah moment moment and collection of dragons and there are more dragons active than we even see there because again we only see five that's clearly not

including vagar who we have this very meaningful moment with later, and there are other dragons missing from the total who we know to be active. I saw here, I had a moment of empathy for Chris because it was difficult to totally, totally decipher who the five are. A couple of them are very clear, and then someone was a little tougher. No one told Chris that Mallory said that. This will be a great test to see if Chris listens to this pod. I know he does. Does he know what we said 30 minutes in?

I think we definitely see Sunfire. Dreamfire, Caraxis, and Syrac. Part of the reason we're so confident about Sunfire and Dreamfires is because of a later shot where Vagar joins two other dragons in flight over the ship that is taking Vesaris and Allison back to Kings Landing. So it can only be Dreamfire, Sunfire, and Vagar, the three kids' dragons. So who's the fifth dragon? It could be Seasmoke.

It could be Maly's. Moondancer, Vermax, Aerox, also active, but all too small. to be in that scene. So it's really just a question of if it's C-Smoke or Males in that back corner. I think it's C-Smoke based on the coloring, but maybe he's off mourning on his own.

I think it's C-Smoke. That would be my guess as well. Yeah. Okay. Love to check in on the Dragons. I also loved how you really feel how routine it is for everybody who's present there

to just be around dragons. So many Targaryens, so many Valerian, so many people with a connection to old Valeria, like nobody who's there in that courtyard is thrown at all by the fact that there are five large dragons right behind them. And I mean, if you if you relook at that moment, we haven't, we haven't seen, this is Sunfire's debut. We haven't seen Sunfire. Sunfire is famously like the most beautiful dragon. And I've seen some.

Love to debut the most beautiful dragon without talking about it at all. In a background shot, yeah. But like, I've seen some freeze frames and. enhanced whatever shots of this. And, like, truly, Sunfire looks absolutely gorgeous. Sort of, like, how Sunfire is described in the book is, like, as very golden. But there's a lot of, like, almost, like, rainbow iridescent moments on this dragon that I'm so excited to see Sunfire, presumably in its full glory. I have to assume someday.

Can't wait. Can't wait. And Dreamfire, like, you know, a very. Blue Dragon. It seems like that's definitely Dreamfire. And also, we can confirm because we were sort of debating and wondering last week with the comments about how Amund was the only one without the dragon, if that meant that Helena was an active rider at that point. And both the presence of Dreamfire here in this episode confirms that, but also it is on the HBO Dragon Index website that they have officially confirms on there that Helena is Dreamfire's writer. Again, love to confirm things like that

on supplementary websites and podcasts and not inside of the show called House of the Show called House of the dragon. That's fine. Joe. Yeah. This chore art scene, we're going to go through all of the meaningful

interactions here, kind of rapid fire, lingering a little longer in certain key exchanges. But I have to ask you, you already noted this was the first stretch that they filmed. They talked in the inside of the episode

about how that kind of enhanced the sense of people being unfamiliar or strange around each other. Do you have a favorite? You can do it number one. to top three. Interaction, glance, anything from this smorgasbord of goodness. Yes. Oh, easy, easy number one for you. Oh, I'm excited. I was spilling through it, and then I landed on the one that I was like, oh, it's obviously this. It's obviously the Valerian

steel sharp daggers coming out of Allison's eyeballs towards Rinera. Like, Olivia Cook just serving disdain for poor Rainier in this moment. How about how about you? Oh, man. That's a great pick. I love that. And again, it was really great to see that Allison Kristen shot that we've seen so much of the trailers.

Yeah, yeah. Same with that shot of Renira emerging. Like, so many of these moments we had glimpsed. And I definitely thought I knew what that shot was and I was wrong. I did not, I did not think, oh, clearly this is Renera walking out into the funeral reception for her sister-in-law, Lena. a really, really cool dramatic moment. Yeah.

Incredible. How about you? What was your favorite glist? This was hard because these were all so deliciously fraught. My number one, though, I think it's Damon and Vassaris. Their conversation's great. That was my number two. That was my number two.

The number of times specifically that Vissaris looks over his shoulder and stares meaningfully at his brother longing for contact and Damon doesn't budge. And, like, Baceres is the king. And the fact that the king gets up and goes over to his brother. I mean, like, on the one hand, that's very... Yeah, on the one hand, that's very sweet because it is, after all, Damon's wife, who just went into the drink. But, like, on the other hand, Vesaris is the king.

Like, people should come to him. So, yeah, yeah. The over-the-shoulder glances, all the brothers. Remarkable stuff. One of my favorite moments from the inside the episode and how, the Dragon's built featureettes to date through the entire season. So far was Matt Smith talking about Damon in this episode saying like he's a leaner. I've always thought of him as a leaner.

I know. It's just like, it's true. You rewashed him. He's just leaning all the time on the wall there against the door in the eye for an eye. It's so funny. Big Jordan Catalano energy. Oh my God. You can't say things like that because then I'm just going to want to talk about my so-called

life for 20 minutes instead of do the rest of the pot. Carve out some time for me later. Okay, great. Call me. Okay. Let's go through some of these pairings, trios, chats. First, Reiner and Damon, more to come on this front. The thing we'll note here is just that they are sharing it.

Oh, God. Great stuff. Lots of lingering looks here. Lots of lingering looks. And later, when Vissaris and Damon are finally interacting, Renera is watching with interest, tracking that exchange and how they feel about each other with interest. Reneera and Jace. It's huge.

Take us through this. I want to, okay, so I want to talk, go back to this again later when Allison is talking to Reneer about duty. But like, you know, Reneer has this little conversation with Jace where Jace is saying, you know, my dad's dead too. I have as much, you know, I have an equal claim to sympathy. Equal claim to sympathy. There I go. Breaking.

Reneira says it would not be appropriate. The Valerians are akin and the strongs are not. Look at me. Do you understand? That is duty, right? That Alicent is completely not acknowledging that Reneira is stifling down her very real grief for someone that we know, based on Emma Darcy and Rancourt's great performance in the last episode, there was real love and affection between these two. And Reneer just has to put it all

away, which she does dutifully to show up and behave completely appropriately until she fucks her uncle on the beach, I guess, at this funeral. So she tells Jace, poor Jace, to go help out Bailen Rina, which is just a lovely, thoughtful, like genuinely kind thing for Reneira to do. That's not a calculated move. That's just an empathetic move from Reneira. Is Reneer a perfect angel baby? No. You know, later she will fuck her uncle on the beach. But like these are the moments. I ship it. Me too. But like these are the moments that really endear Reneira to me. Like she genuinely has a good heart, I think, for the most part. We'll talk about some of that. And then she sees that Allison and Kristen, like, you know, as you said, that shot

from a lot of the trailers and promo are just sneering at her. So she has to stuff it all down. And she's got her own mask in place here. She's going to talk about Allison's mask later, but she's got her own mask in place here. I thought this interaction was incredible.

Me too. And we chatted a bit last week about the comfort that Reneer shows to Jace when he asks if Harwin is her father, but also like a little bit of, bit of the hubris of saying you're Targaryen and that's all that matters. And I was, this is a real, really different tone and a really different tact to take with him. And I really felt watching it that it's, it's her decision here and the way that she's guiding him and the way

that she is guiding herself is reinforced by this, the sensation that they are surrounded on all sides by people who are just waiting for a misstep. And a lesson she's perhaps learned from the loss of Harwin. I mean, that's another thing we didn't get to see. right, which is Renira finding out that Harwin has died. I would have liked to have seen it. But yeah, it's a, and what I like, I mean, we'll get to this later, but like, there is a moment for her to mourn him later, you know. Yeah, really, that later conversation is beautiful talking about what they've lost. But it is just so sad here, the little Jace is like, I want to mourn my father and my grandfather, and I know that's who they are and everyone knows it and I can't do that.

Like to just not be able to live openly in their grief is just gut wrenching. I think also a lot of people pointed out to go back to the funeral. I love to go back in time on a podcast, but like to go back to the funeral, the way that Rainier is standing with her arms around the boys versus Allison, who is like nowhere near her children. And we talked about last week about this compare or contrast between Allison and Reneira in terms of their mothering styles. But what I do want to say to be fair to Alice, to try to be as fair to Allison as I can be,

even though I find her very frustrating, is, you know, Reneira had, those are children of a love that Reneer had. Reneera, like, loved Harwin, but they're not even the love of her life or her soulmate or whatever. She loved him. He loved her. They had, like, one can only presume joyous sex. And these are their, like, beloved offspring. We saw Allison do her duty with Vassaris. And so these children are the constant reminder to her of her duty.

And so, like, I have sympathy then for her detachment from them because of the way, you know, the way it all came about. So speaking up her children. Yeah. What a glimpse we get of the interactions between Agonne, Amos. and Helena here. Let's chat for a minute about Helena because this was something

that we talked about in the book section last week but couldn't talk about in the main stretch of the pot and really, really wanted to. It was difficult not to. Because when Alicent says last week to Amid,

you will have a dragon one day. I know it. And Helena responds, he'll have to close an eye. We gasped because that in S is confirmed that Helena is a dreamer. Helena is one of the Targaryen prophetic seers who Viseras is so obsessed with and so desperately wants to be.

So now everything that she says, including this line that we'll talk about, but everything that comes after, we will be able to parse for nuggets and clues about what it might mean. And in terms of that relationship, like, I'm really curious to see if we get moments between Viseras and Helena where they talk about this and what this means. I would love that. I hope so. It doesn't seem like it because Viseras does not treat any of these children like they're his children at all.

You know? Like, we can, we can knock Allison for being a bad mom or, you know, a distant mom or whatever you want. But, like, Facerus is not, like, does not treat these children like they're his children at all. So. Lots of yelling later in the hall of nine. Lots of yelling as though you were speaking to strangers rather than your own children.

Tough episode for Vassaris. It was bad to happen at some point. He said, just, you know, unimpeachable. showings before. Maybe that's why Kristen Cole is, like, confused that whether or not these children are cousins. Oh my God. That drove me crazy. Surely they can't be Vissarious as children.

Anyway, we'll get to that. What does Helena say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's what Elena says this time as she's holding a little spider, loves to play with bugs, once again. Hand turns loom. Spool of green, spool of black. Dragons of flesh.

We think dragons of thread. Hand turns loom. What do you make of it? There's plenty we can say here. There's also like we're going to get to this even a little bit more in the book section later in this episode. But I like my very first interpretation. First of all, hand turns loom feels like an auto reference like, you know, the, I mean, I did think of rings of power and hands turning wheels. But also just like the hand of the king is setting a lot of this in motion is sort of my idea about that spool, green, spool of black.

We talked about the green dress on Alicent. A black dress for Rainira is something, you know, that divides these teams or signals what these teams are. And we hear Renera say later. She uses the vernacular, the green. So this is crystallizing, the label for each side. Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread is really super interesting. There's a lot of ways you interpret it. But my favorite interpretation was the real dragons that we see, whether that be the Targaryens or the actual beasts that they ride, will someday be the stuff of legends that you put in a tapestry?

So, like, we're making history right now. Was that your interpretation, too? You're thinking about tapestries? I love to think about a tapestry. But just the way that the story is taking shape in real time and the decisions that these characters are making is going to be the stuff of Lauren Legend. for mushroom to misinterpret in the future, you know? The last interpretation that I really loved, A Shea from the History of Westrose podcast,

I really loved her interpretation, which was that before this episode is over, a green, meaning Amon, and a black, meaning Rainier, will literally be stitched up. Like, that, like, you know, Amon gets a stitch on his eye, and Reneer gets a stitch upper arm.

And I was like, oh, that's, I hadn't thought about that. That's really cool. I love it. I mean, Viseris is still kick in. So this is really a season about medical care in many respects. So I like it. Oh, God.

In addition to this very intriguing mini prophecy from Helena here, we get very quickly like a pretty big nugget, which is that Agon and Helena are betrothed. Allison has officially rejected Reneira's proposal. And not only has she rejected Renair's proposal, full Targ tradition here of incest, siblings will be marrying each other. So much for Allison's knock on the Targaryen's quote, queer customs, which is a charge that she was levying at Renera back in episode four in our beloved godswood.

Again, I would have loved to have seen this. Yeah. How Allison makes her case for this? Was this a difficult decision? for her to make was this something that she had to reconcile with herself? How does she reconcile this decision with her own beliefs and her own adherence to the faith? I think that's really, really fascinating. And while we don't get to see how Allison feels about it, we do get to see how Agon and

Amon both feel about it. Agon's boredom and revulsion just across, not only when he's talking about this, he's not interested, doesn't want to marry Helena. And all he is interested in is a new goblet of wine and Steve just play us the clip here. We actually do have one thing in common. We both fancy creatures with very long legs. Okay. Tidant, we will miss you.

Miss you dearly. He then shouts wench another. It's just an iconic, iconic showing from Tident yet again. I can't remember if we talked about this last week, but I do think they're doing something a little interesting in trying to tie young Reneira and Agon here in terms of pressure to rule. Allison is putting pressure on Agon that he will be the heir.

Amon is about to talk to Agan about his responsibilities and stuff like that. And all Agan wants to do is drinking, I guess, probably fuck a wench, right? and all Reneira wanted to do was eat cake and fly off on a dragon with Allison. And like, how different are those things? I far prefer young Reneira to young Agon. But I do think they're intentionally trying to, in a way that the book doesn't bother to, trying to draw a line between those two characters.

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's really smart. And this idea of being really firmly guided by your passions and your youth and rebelling a bit against the responsibility. that other people would seek to put down on you, including, and we often talk about what the adults are placing upon the children here, and we will do so many times today. But it is so interesting when that also comes from Amon's in this scene, who's Agon's younger brother, and he's like, if only mother had betrothed us instead, like, I'm ready, I would do my duty, and he says it will

strengthen the family, keep our Valerian blood pure. Now, on the one hand, he clearly thinks that Aigon is an idiot. But one of the things that we've really liked tracking across the episodes and talking about on Talk to Thrones and here is this idea of, like, who is deeply focused on what it means to be a Targaryen. And that really emerges in full force for Aymond in this episode. It's also wild. Amon says, she's your future queen.

Like, queen. Right. Like, it's a foregone conclusion to him. So Aynne. fully bought into the fact that Agon will be king. Right. He's been indoctrinated by... That is real Hobart High Tower.

Hail, hail. Hale. Hagon second of his name. Agon the conqueror, babe. I mean, that's just... It's a wild thing to say, and he says it, like, so, so casually. So, yeah. I also, I could be wrong in this, but I sensed...

I feel like they're trying to set up some real tenderness between Aman and Haleigh. Yeah, I felt it too. Yeah. Like Galadriel does. So I felt it too. I felt it too. I think that also I didn't get a chance to go back and watch, but like when Amon comes back from the dragon pit in the last episode, like, where are Helena and Allison's? Like, are they in Helena's chambers or are they in Allison's chambers?

Does he go to Helena's chambers or does he go to Alice's chamber? He's brought there, right? He's brought there. Okay. All right. So probably not. But, and I like that Helena, I mean, again, Helena's first dream prophecy that we hear from her is about her brother even. So I don't know.

I like the idea that perhaps they're setting up like a tender connection between those two who are not Agon because Agonne sucks. So yeah. Speaking to people who suck, let's chat about Kristen for a second. There's a really interesting Kristen Allison's Laris moment where Kristen observes that Laris won't stop looking over at Allison. And he's really weirded out by this. Yeah. And he calls, we talked about this a bit on Talk to Thrones.

I was like, kind of bold over by this. He calls Laris Lionel Strong's son. And seems baffled by the fact that he is. is unnerved by the fact that he's looking over at Allison this way. And I'm like, does he not know that Allison and Laris are tight? Like, Kristen is Allison's sworn protector. And Laris is her closest confidant. These are two of the people who are most centrally in her life and a part of her crusade. Is Kristen not aware of who one of Allison's other main allies is? Like, that strikes me as very notable. I mean, presumably he sleeps standing up outside of her to.

now. So, like, wouldn't he know when Laris, like, goes in and out? Oh, God. I do want a moment. I, I, we'll talk about this again later, but I want a moment to talk about Laris and subtlety because as you're visiting this description of Varis, we've been comparing Laris and Veris and Littlefinger as, like, these operations in the kingdom. There's a description of Veris in the book, or where Varis says, my role is to be sly, obsequious. and without scruples. He talks later to, he also talks to Ned about,

like, being brought up with actors and it's his role to blend in, and stuff like that. Anyway, Laris, you called him out from the beginning, and I just have to agree with you that he lacks subtlety.

He lacks chill. Like, what is he doing at that wake? What is he, what is his energy there? Looks like it's the first time he's ever been invited to the party, which was sort of, like, pathetic and sad, a little bit.

Yeah. But I know he waits till they're on the ship to ask Allison if he would like kind of go claim an eye, but the fact that he's just always leering from some corner and then shouting like, who can I go kill for you? It's it's a, it's a, it's a, we need a degree of recalibration there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a question, an ongoing question they have is like are Laris and Kristen both being set up as Littlefinger-esque?

somewhat or deeply in love with Allison in some way. Is that a dynamic that we're meant to be picking up on? So, yeah. What do you think? I have questions about where Kristen Cole was when all of this went down. I have questions. He was on Nightwatch. So does Sir Harold Western, like, some meaningful glances exchanged.

And Harold's like, we need to talk to HR about this. Yeah. So, well, we'll be talking about Sir Harold more in a bit. But our next meaningful exchange here takes place between Corliss and Luke. Corlis is at his own daughter's funeral and is chatting about the line of succession for House Valerian. Yikes. Logan Roy. We get a great little.

We get a great little, don't want it moment from Luke. Steve. Steve, what would that sound like? I don't want it. I love it. I was waiting for Luke to go full, John. Like, you are my queen. I never wanted it.

I don't want it. Oh, God. Just the best. Incredible. Always nice to be reminded of John. And then we get a really, like, genuinely heartbreaking exchange. Where Luke says, after Corlis tells him that it's his birth rate, if I'm the Lord of Drift Mark, it means everyone is dead. This broke my heart because there are so many moments

in this episode and in recent episodes where we're reminded and you really felt it here, like how these kids are just in the middle of a game that somebody else started and how they are just absorbed into it, like constantly having to think about your family members dying, constantly being at odds with each other, constantly being taught to view people who you might otherwise have affection for as threats. Oh. Sad. Yeah.

Sad. Sometimes, though, it's just as notable when people don't speak at all. Joanna, please take us through this cheeseboard moment with Rainis and Rainier. This is the moment that fascinated me most of all is what is going on with Rainey's in this episode. Rainier's is cold-shouldering Ranira, and then we'll go on to cold shoulder. Jace as well. And one presumes Luke if she's given the chance. So we know from previous episodes, episode two, very specifically, the reason Rainis and Reneas and Reneira have had a fraught relationships, remembering the conversation that they had

when Lina was, tiny Lina was taking a walk through the garden with Vassaris. Right. They denied you, princess. Yeah. Right. Tough stuff. So Ranius has never, like, loved Rennira. But the main issue here we find out later in our conversation with Corleys is like, listen, this bitch very clearly has had children that were not with my son. That puts my son in danger.

Like, I kind of understand that. But the question is... A danger she was already bracing for before this, because that was what she voiced just on the heels of Asaris's proposal in episode five. We are placing our son in danger that knives will come out idea. But the question is, so, like, Rainis goes over and she's sunshine and lollipops to, Bela and Rana. Poor Bela and Rana, right? Really icing poor Jace, who has gone over and like Baila took his little hand and it was just like so sweet. She's ice her out. This gives me

such Catlin Stark energy towards John Snow, right? Where we're like, we like Catlin. And we like Rainies. But this is a moment where we're like, you can't extend grace to some children who had no role to play in, you know, coming into this family as bastards or not, however you decide to define it. And to go back to, we just heard from John Snow, to go back to Luke saying, I don't want it. Like, I think the show is working really hard to put Luke and Jace in a sort of John Snow stark mold. And I think a reason to do that is something we'll talk. talk about later, which is like who a question that keeps coming up is who do we root for in

this show. And I think they're setting up Luke and Jace to be, you know, Johnish in that way, you know? Oh, man. I think that that Catlin Rainiest comp is excellent. Like thinking of the moment, too, where Kat is aware of that and in a moment of grief can like say to Tulisa all because I couldn't love a motherless child. You swap motherless for innocent and that same idea holds. And like, that actually made it so much more tragic that that self-awareness is there and it doesn't change the way that you behave. Oh, God. I was also really like, so much heartbreak in this episode, really struck by that little moment where after Jace moves aside, Amund comes over and they're staring at each other for a second across this fire pit. And you kind of feel, and you know,

we're interpreting, but I felt like Eamon went over to try to extend the kindness and then can't. And Jace also can't receive it. And like, you just feel that the division is taking root so fully already. Everyone is already on edge. Do you interpret that kindness as Eamon would like to say to Jase, I'm sorry your dad's dead, but can't say it because to say it is, I mean, you'll have no trouble saying it later, but to say it here when he's trying to be nice is also an insults. Yeah, I don't know. It's a great question. Like, is he there to say, sorry, are you okay? And then because Jace kind of turns away, he, that's it. And then the next interaction is calling Jason Luke bastards. Or was he just going to stand around?

people's own age. And I mean, I don't know. Again, I think it's really open to interpretation, but it does feel like there's a little moment there. No, there's definitely a moment there. Well, if there's definitely a moment there, we know that he does not like his brother. Because he's like, agon. And like, his sister's on the ground playing with spiders. So he's like, maybe my nephews, not his cousins, maybe my nephews can be my friends here. And then it just doesn't work out. So close. Oh, God. Sad. how about this

deeply dismaying moment that we get from Corlis where he sees that Lainor is waist deep out in the water mourning in his grief and Corlis decides to make a much bigger scene and draw much more attention to this

by shouting at Carl to go retrieve his patron so that everybody stops and stares and looks? What's going on here? My only thought, the only reason for this moment to exist is to pay off later in the episode, the Carl Leinor fight that's fake that happens, because there's no reason for Corleys to call attention to it this way.

And also, was there no way back from the beach but through the reception? Because Carl brings him back, cutting straight through the cocktail hour. I was like, was there no side path back into the castle? What are we doing here? I don't know. I was confused.

me. Fasaris and Damon. After all of these glances, Vassaris finally hobbles over to his brother. They speak for what we can gather in the show is the first time in 10 years. So this is different because in fire and blood, we know that Damon reaches out

after his children are born and asks to receive them at court. Everyone's telling Vassaris, don't do it, right? Quote from fire and blood here. Viseras consented, for the king still loved the brother who had been the companion of his youth. Damon is a father now. He told Grand Maester Melos, he will have changed. Thus were the sons of Balon Targaryen reconciled for the second time. So that just didn't happen in the show. This is their first moment interacting with each other. And it goes really well. It's tough. Now, again, this is like a classic Damon moment because on the one hand, I'm not going to lie. I laughed. Like, it was so cruel and rude, but so funny when Viseras is saying that the gods are cruel and Damon says it seems they've been especially

cruel to you like looking at all of the missing pieces of his melting brother. Credit to Vesaris, he takes that one on them. Well, I don't know if he can take anything on the chin and might just fall off. I was going to say, he still has a chin that he can take it on. Oh my God. But it is also like, it is so painful because Viseris, we rarely credit Viseris. And, I will say that he is extending an olive branch in the form of their shared grief. He's observing these losses that have defined both of their lives. And he actually can relate to what Damon is going through and invites Damon home, tells him there's a place from at his court. What did you make of Damon's response?

Because he has absolutely no room for it. He says, I need nothing. I thought that line was so interesting. Especially because later, Reneira says, I need you, uncle. You know what I mean? So it's like, I mean, we already saw him say, like, last week to Lena, I don't, like, good. I went out of like the politicking, you know, Runeer's like one last job, question mark. But I need nothing.

I don't know. I mean, you can't fault Damon for. I don't know. No, you probably can, actually. I'm just making excuses for Damon, but, like, has it been 10 years since his brother spoke to him? Right. Not that Veseris made a huge misstep in what he said here. It's just like he doesn't understand Damon at all.

And Reneera, I think, does. We've said that over and over and over again, that Reneer and Damon speak exactly the same language in Vassaris and Damon. And Hyvalerian. Both. Oh, God. Yeah, it just felt like Damon has not forgiven Vassaris for casting him aside and is genuinely deeply wounded by this still. Oh, boy. He does, however, have plenty of room in his heart to continue dunking on Otto.

And I have to say I missed this. I missed Otto and Damon shredding each other at any opportunity. Just pass him by. Pass him by at the courtyard. What does he say? What does he say? Just in passing. No matter how fat the leach grows, it always wants for another meal.

For like in response to nothing. Yeah. Response to nothing. David just drops that. All timer. This is just, this is why Damon is great. This is amazing. I love him.

This is why Otto is obsessed with David. Yeah, it's just like, wow. This guy just posterized me and all I tried to do was say hi, sorry. Rough. also rough that everybody is caught in a brief reenactment of Tywin Lannister's fabled The King is Tired sequence here. I love an early bedtime. I mean, same, but it's like 7 p.m. And Renera is sending her kids to bed so she could follow Damon.

Yeah, Miguel hasn't even put like 90 blue filters on the camera yet. It's still dusk. Oh my God. Yeah. I think some of the real highlights here, you know, we get this, this, Amund is hearing the dragon screeches setting up what's going to happen. But Otto pulling Egon up, kicking him a real like, boy, is this the, is this the guy I'm putting all of my stock into? I put in our notes from his piss puddle.

And I don't know. Maybe he just spilled a goblet, but there's a lot of liquid on the ground. So just asking the questions here on House of R. And then one of the most notable partings is what happens with Viseras, Allison, Sir Harold, and Kristen. How did you interpret everything here after Viseras says, calls Allison's Emma? But also doesn't, how does he reply to Sir Harold's question here? Okay.

So he says Emma. And then I took this next thing that Harold says, which is Shalphi, I see after Queen Allison, your grace, as like a gentle corrective of buddy you just called your wife by your dead wife's name. That's not great. And he says, Macaugh- No, Sir Harold.

In Miseras' defense, he was just thinking about Emma when talking to Damon. I'm going to, it's tough, though. It's painful. It's hard. A lot of people watching. He says no, Sir Harold. And then Harold says to Chris and you have the Knights watch. Sir Kristen. We got this email from Lauren, who says, well, everyone was focused on Vassaris,

while everyone was focused on Vassaris calling Allison Emma, I was focused on Westerling, very pointedly asking if he should stay up with Alicent while Vassaris goes to bed, and Kristen would go with him. I realize that this later gives context that Kristen was on night watch and should have been there for the child attacks, but I also read it that he thinks something is going on between Allison and Kristen. I would just say, I like this interpretation from Lauren. I did not read it that way, but I kind of like it.

But I will say that I loved every single time that Harold Westering looked askance at Kristen Cole, which was several times. So even though we haven't seen why it is Kristen Cole still has his job on the Kingsguard, we can be damn sure that Harold Westerling

is not excited about it. Like he hates that. This guy is still on his staff. Sullying the white cloak, no doubt. I mean, my favorite later, my favorite is that like when everything, all the shit goes down, like two Kingsguard have to physically restrain Kristen Cole, totally normal. Remarkable stuff. Totally normal that two other members of the Kingsguard have to restrain the Queen's

sworn protector. Anyway. My God. Kristen. Very rough. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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Save at Whole Foods Market. Okay. Great scene there in the courtyard. What a rich text. We are moving on to this also very rich and layered conversation about legacy between Reynese and Corlis, who are responding to their grief quite differently. Renice, not ready to just say this was an act of the gods.

Mayhap, she responds to Corlis, the gods have scorned us for our insatiable pride. Joe? Seans from a marriage. When Corlis says that he's doing this because Renice was spurned at the Great Council, she challenges him. This is something that you had observed early, that this not necessarily pure, fallacy, but this convenient trumpeting of his desire to support and avenge her failed claim was not conveniently revealing the personal ambition that he carried at the heart of it.

The night of all nights I just lay aside this falsehood. It's not justice for your wife that drives you just your own ambition. to desire for the throne for not for yourself and for the sions of your house I gave up the idea of wearing a crown a generation ago it is you, Lord Husband,

who refuses to abandon this pursuit even now at the cost of our children. Sheesh. I think this passage from fire and blood which sort of opens this section where George Armard writes, for this was to be a year when many of the long simmering tensions

and jealousies that had played the second Seven kingdoms finally came to a boil, a year when many and more would have reason to wail and grieve and run their garments. Though none more than the sea snake, Lord Corley Salarian, and his noble wife, Princess Rainies, she who might have been queen. I think her saying, mayhaps the gods have scorned us for our insatiable pride, and this is even before their son, they think, winds up in the fireplace. like, you know, there's this real, are we cursed energy coming off of these, these particular characters. What do you, like, how did this strike you especially, Mallory? So I, I love this because I, I, one of the things that we were chatting about with Renice

earlier in the season is like how it hurts us as viewers to see this, this divide between Reynese and Renera, characters who could. do so much to help each other and have a lot of shared experience and history and how they are in very different places when they have that conversation in episode two. And Renice, I think, part of why she's such a compelling character, like, she always voices the truth that she sees it. And again, like in episode five in the wake of the Sarah, in the wake of Vesaris's visit, she was unflinching in her assessment that she shared with Corliss. And like, we really, really championed at the time how he was listening to her and how rare it was to see a relationship

and a marriage on their show where they're like equal partners. And I like and think it's important that she is voicing the limit of that. And that he then is so staunch and steadfast in staying the course that he believes is right. And, you know, the other thing that I love in this scene that plays out then over the next part of it where they're discussing legacy and this cloud, this shadow hanging over Ramira's children, Renice is playing the game too. And that's like a crucial element of this story, that you have these moments where you feel yourself drawn toward and aligning with somebody. And then they also do something that makes you say, oh, but like at what cost? And, you know, Corliss is like very firmly in,

his Taiwan corner here. Taiwan's coming up a lot today and I don't think that's an accident that he's a character who's so top of mind for us. One of the great, great, great lines of this episode

comes from Coralus here when he says, what is this brief mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy? Obviously, Taiwan's obsession with legacy, we've talked about a lot like the conversation

that he had with Aria, at Heron Hall in season two where he asks if she knows what legacy is and explains it. I was actually thinking more here of our introduction to Taiwan in the show, the great scene, the skinning scene with Jamie in the tent, where he says, it's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your

honor, but family. You understand. Like when we get history does not remember blood, it remembers names from Coralus Slater. That is a moment that ties directly, I think, to how we think about Taiwan. But as you've noted before, we think of Taiwan as this like master tactician and strategist, but also as a character often gravely aired, most of all, by pursuing this idea of family and legacy without actually taking the time to study what was happening

inside of his family right in front of him. And it strikes me to Coralus as a character is making those same mistakes. I love that you brought up the skinning Taiwan introduction scene, and I had forgotten that he says, name, that's so smart. The scene, the line that we quote a lot for Taiwan, that

Aria line that you mentioned is like, you know what, Legacy means what you pass down to your children, your children's children, and what remains of you when you're gone. I like to contrast that to what Ned Stark, one of my favorite Ned Stark scenes, which is in the black cells with Barris, right? And Ned says, yeah, I know. Ned says, you think my life is some precious thing to me that I would train my honor for a few more years of what? You grew up with actors, you learned their craft and you learned it well. But I grew up with soldiers. I learned to die a long time ago. and then Lord Various says, pity, such a pity, what of your daughter's life, my lord? Is that a precious thing to you? So, like, I love this moment where Ned Stark's like, I don't give a shit about my life or even like this idea of legacy.

But Varis is like, yeah, but you do care about your daughter who is alive and you want her to protect her. And so I like this contrast of thinking about like just names or where you will be in the history book or where you will sit in the tapestry. or how the Valarian name will be burnished versus thinking about who's alive right now and how can you protect them? You know? And so, and that's where I do fault Rainies a bit because even though there's a lot to credit her for

and I love the idea of passing Driftmark to Bela and all that sort of stuff, very, you know, calling Corliss out for his empty feminist ideals. Let's challenge the patriarchy for really. real my guy. She's putting a target on Luke and Jason that, you know. And so again, thinking about the children who are alive and how can we protect them, she's like, yeah, I'm thinking about two children who are alive and how I can secure their future. But I'm going to throw these two boys who have done absolutely nothing, who are absolutely innocent because one of them hasn't sliced an eyeball

out of someone's head yet. Under the bus, you know. I think it's really juicely complicated. And it's what we're going to talk again. We're going to talk about likeability in a bit. But like this is what the show does best. This is what Martin does best. This is what the world, this world of ice and fire does best, which is show us characters

who have virtues and flaws sitting right side by side with each other, you know. Couldn't agree more. The messiness and the muddiness of that is so fully undisplayer. I love that you brought up Ned as that contrast. He was willing to completely sacrifice his reputation in order to protect John and honor Leanna's wish at the expense then, ultimately, of the peace inside of his own family. And we talk a lot about that madness of mercy idea. And it's just a great thing to keep in mind here.

I was also thinking back as Renice's challenging Corlis on his ambition and where it will lead them. Like on what we know about his character in general and what has been so central to his depiction on the show. Like thinking back to his conversation, episode two actually in a couple different ways because some of it is what we hear from other people. You know, we get that conversation between Lionel, RIP, and Viserie. when Lionel says, I fear nothing short of a direct line to the Iron Throne will satisfy him.

And of course, we have that great conversation with Corliss and Damon at the end of episode two where he says, we are the realm's second sons. Damon, our worth is not given. It must be made.

This is the seasnake of the fabled nine voyages, literally responsible for achieving things that no person had ever done. Like, he, he, the place that they are standing high tide is a totem to what he can achieve through sheer force of will and determination.

And so, like, Renis is in essence saying to him, cease doing the thing that got you where you are. And the limitation then for him on the other side is that he can't even consider the possibility. Like when he says you would have me cast an even darker shadow over those little boys than already exists, is there, is any of that stemming from affection? Maybe. It's entirely possible. I think he was very sweet when he was interacting with Luceris. I think it is also true, certainly and undeniably, that while that is a moment where we really feel that, again, Renis is playing the game too and complicating our feeling about the likability of the characters, as you just noted, changing. what happens at high tide doesn't just impact Luceris. It would cast a shadow over Jace as well. And then that compromises that idea that Lionel shared about Corliss's desire to have that direct line to the throne.

Remember when he asks Viseris, will they have my last name? Like this is top of mind for him. And of course, what else would it do? If it impacts Jase's claim, it impacts Ramirez claim. So this is something that, like, he simply cannot abide because it is at the heart of his very pursuit. Exactly. They're both playing the game in their own ways.

And, yeah, no, I would never call Corlis's motivations here. Altruistic. His own ambitious. Like, yeah, he seems very sweet with Luke. But all of that is all about legacy, shoring up legacy. And in a time of way. And, like, we've mentioned this before, but Steve Toussaint has said that when he auditioned for Corlis,

he did so with Time and Lanister lines. So, yeah, makes sense. Well, speaking of sure-in-up legacies. Yeah. Is that what they call it? Otto Hightower, we have some news. Reneer and Damon have coupled at last. Let's talk about it.

This sequence, strolling on the beach. Coupling. Coupling. In the bowels of the brothel. Pleasure to. Under the. wood planks of perhaps

former ship I thought that was interesting that reminded me a lot of the fact that like on the stepstones Damon shelters under I totally agree

before the actual coupling this is just an incredible scene an absolutely wonderful exchange we're hitting on a lot the first thing that they do is they check

about Lainor. And Joe, we learned something pretty crucial here. So that like Reneer, and we talked about this in Talk of Thrones, but that Reneira did try to have a child with Lainor. Like she wasn't just recklessly having babies that looked nothing like her husband. She was trying to have babies that looked like Lainor so that, you know, she would not be in the midst of this scandal, but it just did not work out for them. And we should say that in the book, Rineira, like, would join Lainor and his,

everyone's, like, kind of a bisexual king and queen in Fire and Blood. And Reneer would, like, join Lainor and his boyfriend, like, in bed. And it was, like, a whole thing. So, like, we were definitely deprived of that reality. But anyway, that she tried. What strikes me about all of this, they talk about Lainor, and they talk about Harwin. and then they talk about Lena, is the honesty,

immediate honesty that stands in stark contrasts to Reneura having to hide all of her heroin emotions at this funeral. And the amount of grace and empathy that they can extend to each other, that there is, you know, this shared possessiveness and connection that they have with each other. But the way in which demon is, very kind and he's like, I understand

that Harwin was very devoted to you. That's such a kind thing to say, right? And Ranira asks him about Lena and he says we were happy enough. And so there's room for these people who are extremely attracted to each other in a

probably bad for everyone kind of way, like all that sort of stuff, to like hold the reality of these other love affairs that they've had and the joy and the beauty that existed there. And it makes me like both of them a lot, this exchange.

I totally agree. And the fact, like, you're saying that they just have no hesitation being completely forthright with each other in a story where so many, in so many interactions, somebody has to hedge or couch. Like, there's just none of that here, which really, really stands out as a point of contrast. And, you know, I loved, like, when they were talking about Harwin and Damon is looking sideways and smiling at Renera when she says it felt good to be desired.

And on the one hand, there's that, like, you know that he's thinking back to their escapade to the Street of Silk in episode four and, like, what that unlocked for her. But also, I just think that those are the kinds of moments that really make us, like, warm toward Renera and Damon, too. But, like, who can't relate to that? That's just the most, like, honest and truthful thing you can say.

You know, like, that's what people want. And it just makes us sink in and, like, care deeply about their ability to unlock that for each other. And, like, it's not like the whole conversation is smooth or without tension. You know, Damon, he points the finger at Otto and Allison for Harenhall really notably Reneer response by saying that she doesn't believe that Allison is capable of murder. And so even inside of this episode, obviously, there's been this great, like, degradation of their relationship over time. but even inside of this episode, this one day, there is still something there to hold on to until it just completely disintegrates at the end.

And I really liked the conversation about depravity because Damon says, like, they're all capable of depravity. And he would obviously know it's the first thing we're thinking as viewers, we're thinking back to many things, but, you know, just to throw out one, him murdering Ria Royce. And Renera also points this out. Like, yeah, we know. And it's a good reminder as this like heroes versus villains distinction is emerging in the show much more so than in the, not only in the text, but in the like moral gray on all sides kind of marketing campaign and run up to the show in the way that. George talked about why he's strong to the characters,

etc. It is, I think, important to balance that with reminders that plenty of people on Reneira's team have done bad and deplorable things do. Yeah. So, Damon with Rhea, obviously, the big one. But inside this episode, like, the fact that they pave the way for Lainor to have this great escape is delightful.

we'll talk about that. They kill someone in order to do that. Yeah. Like in cold blood. Just breaks a guy's neck, a member of the household on the stairs and says here's your body for the ploy. Like that's horrific. I love a couple things, though, about this specific interaction because when she says, I do not believe Alice is capable of cold murder, the fact that, like, demons like,

and like disagrees with her. And then very soon after. she says to Allison, now they see you as you are. And it feels like she had her mind changed in this moment by Damon. And then I also like, you know, you've already underlined it. But like when she says, I believe it, you know, each of us is capable of depravity, he says, and more than you would believe. And she says, I believe it of you.

If you're accusing me of some depravity, you need to be more specific. He says, again, this is just honesty. It's just laying the cards on the table. She has no illusions about who he is. And so say what you will about them. They're at least, in contrast to your point about Team Green, Laris and Kristen and Allison and like, is she keeping both of those dogs on a leash and not letting them communicate with each other?

You know what I mean? Here are Reneira and Damon being like, all right, Team Black, cars on the table, this is who we are. Yeah. We know who we are. Let's go forward from here, you know. And in fact, like not only. She's not holding that against him.

It's part of what she's pissed off at him for taking away, that she missed that, that she didn't have the support that manifests in any way you needed to, no matter how horrific that might be. And one of the things she says to him here is that he abandoned her. Now, this is wild stuff from Damon Targary and that his defense here is you were a child. The brothel plot was completely fine, but then you were a child said it and he had to bounce. But even so, like, there's this moment then right after that where he shows real vulnerability in turn by asking her when she's talking about how her life has become this droll tragedy.

And he's like, what do you think my life has been like? And I don't think that's something that he would show to a lot of people. Like, they just unlock this level of candor in each other that is very rare and kind of only for them to see. And that brings us to the sex. The sex that, again, we ship it, one of the least surprising unions in television history, people have been anticipating this for some time. Since he put that necklace on her neck, I would say.

Wait, are these two people who are part of the incest family going to fuck? You know, they're at Damon's wife's funeral. They're at their both of their in-laws' house. I have some notes on that part of it. That said, I thought the scene was great and I loved it. I'm sorry. When they kiss, you mentioned this moment already, but like when she, when we're Reina leans in and says, I want you.

Like, these are very complicated characters, but also not really. Like, Damon is a character who wants somebody to want him. That is the defining variable in his life. And, like, they can give that to each other. And maybe it's toxic, but they can. Right, because of all the things that he has said to Vassaris about you, keep sending me away. And all I ever wanted to be was at your side.

And Reneera is like, I'm going to be queen and I need you at my side. This is what he's been asking for. I love this idea also. If you want to say that Reneira rides him here, I like the parallel of Reneira claiming Damon for her side and Amon claiming Vagar for the Green Side, right? Like two people have claimed a dragon in this episode. And significant players on each side.

of this, you know, conflict, Vagar and Eamon. So, you know, Vagar and Damon is what I meant to say. I was, like, really struck to by, you know, we already talked about how the structure that they're, that they're nestling under recalls what, what Damon hides under in the stepstones and these really,

like, defining moments in his life. I was just struck by how, like, intimate and private this is, in contrast to the bowels of a pleasure dance sequence, It was not only just so public, but it was so showy. And like, this is just for them. And that doesn't mean that it's without its political benefits, as we'll talk about later. But I don't know. This was just an amazing scene.

This is like, I feel like the kind of, and it was in the stretch of amazing scenes, the kind of thing that we've really like been craving more of inside of House of the Dragon, where we're spending less time saying, wait, who's where now and played by whom and more like, okay, this is like this seismic. I was going to say coming together, but then I just know what you would have said and reply. Wait, Steve, what would Beesbury say?

The, um, the, um, what I love. I mean, I will say, I think the sex scenes in episode four were shot a bit better. I like the camera work on those scenes a bit better. better than I like the camera work here. That being said, Miguel Sapashnik's camera,

I do like the way that it runs up the burns on Damon's body, which is something that we hadn't really seen. We saw a little bit... Creeping up the neck. Yeah, we saw it a little bit on his neck. When Vassaris pins him down in the throne room

in episode four, I was like stared at many shots of Matt Smith's neck and I was like, I think those are burns but also maybe Matt Smith is just lost some collagen in his neck and I don't want to call them out in case this is just what his neck looks like. But indeed he has,

and those are war wounds, right? Those are burns up his body and it's just like, you know. Took that flaming arrow in the stepstones there. It's the dragon, warrior, fire, blood, whole thing together. I just, I love that part of it. Yeah. Speaking of things I love.

We love incest. Okay, moving on. Speaking of scars on a body, moving on. What are we talking about next? Joe, it's time to talk about Amant claiming Vagar. I could not wait for this scene. It was one of the scenes I was anticipating the most. And it really lived up to expectations.

Like, we've chatted a lot over our episodes about how we're longing for more of these moments, these origin stories between dragon and riders. I, you know, I went on a little spiel and talked to thorns about this. Like, I really care about this. And I hate, hate, hate the moments where it feels like that is like cast aside. That's not just specific to House of the Dragon.

Like more generally, this is a fantasy story. And sinking into and living inside of that magic and helping us understand those bonds and helping us understand the lore and the mythology is so central to this world. Like, a scene like this is the antithesis of then completely abandoning something like John and Ghost and the Wargbond at the end of Thrones, which, like, devastated me and still does to this day.

I get so upset when I think about it. So not only did I love this, but I really am, like, longing for more moments like this in the show. Did you feel any of that? I feel some of it. never feel it as deeply as you do. And I just love you very much as an animal girl, as a, as a mystical animal girl, magical animal girl. And I support you in all your endeavors. Mystical animal girl. I like it. Let's see if it sticks. Did you ever read, did you ever read the Tamara Pierce books?

Like Alana. And then there was like, okay, I'll talk to you about it later. Anyway, there's a whole, I await your owl. There's a whole like magical. animal series that I would like to introduce you to now that we are grown-ass adults. Let's talk about it. Send that record my way. I can't wait. I'll just send you the books. Yeah.

Okay. Great. Great. I also noted this on Sunday's pod, but like I couldn't not think about John and Regal in season eight of Thrones because it was really cool to see. It was thrilling. But it never, it always felt like that element of like the magnitude of that moment was missing where every character in the world who,

who bore witness to that would stop and say, what does this mean? What a hugely consequential thing? And one of the things that I really loved about this Amund Vagar sequence is that that does happen here, both in the immediate aftermath of it and everything that sparks the eye-for-and-eye sequences.

But later, when Otto is talking to Allison and says what that rogue Amant has done in winning Vagar to our side, the boy was right, it's worth a thousand times the price he paid. Like, this is a huge stakes altering moment. And you do feel it. You also hear it, right?

Can we do some sights and sounds? Yeah. We're going to talk about our pal, Paula Fairfield, who does the incredible sound design on these creatures and also the creatures on rings of power, casually sends us little updates on the noise, the sounds that went into these creatures. Here's what she had to say about Vagar.

She says, I have to tell you the only notes I got on Vagar. where that she's old, lonely, and has IBS, which is irritable bowel syndrome. Case people don't know. Oh, my God. Naturally, naturally, I had to make the fart that shook the world. Sadly, it did not pass HBO sniff test for all the old ladies who just want to be left alone and pass gas and peace. I see you.

Vagar. Oh, my God. And then Paula wrote, RIP, hashtag RIP gigantic fart. Right? Oh, God. And the last thing she said to me is she says, I'm sad for everyone. Vagar's epic rip was perfection and perfectly matched the look on Avan's face. Oh, my God.

Holy shit. Incredible. That is iconic stuff from Paula. The fart that ever was. Oh, well. We need to get the fart in self-squent episodes. It has to happen. It has to happen. There's no reason to give up on the dream.

Remarkable stuff. I love this so much. Oh, my God. I mean, we really have, we have enhanced our understanding of Agar with this. Like, we've talked a lot about how Vagar is the oldest and biggest dragon in the world. We got that too large for our world moment with Vassaris and Lina in episode two. But this, this cements something essential about Vigar's personality and energy. I love that. I know. And presumably, presumably, this is why we did not see Lena claim Vagar to save all the, like, save all the, like, magic and presumably, I guess, why we didn't even see Vagar come with them to the royal wedding. I still feel like we miss something, but I understand that they wanted to save it for, like, one big sort of Vagar claiming scenes. Yeah, I agree. I feel both of those things keenly. Wanted more, wanted it sooner. But it does help everything. feel like, holy shit here. You know, we won't go through like every single moment of consequence for Vagar in battle.

Actually, read Riley McAtee's piece on the ringer.com. What a great website where he does exactly that. Love it. If you are, if you are for that, I think the thing, you know, in terms of again, that auto idea and like how important this is, I think one thing that like stands out to me is on the one hand, Vagar has been a part of, you know, we've mentioned this before, but just in case anyone hasn't heard the past pods or needs a refresher. past writers include Vesenia,

Agan the Conqueror's sister wife, a fabled warrior, Baylon, the Spring Prince, Damon and Viseris' dad, and then, of course, Lena. So this is like, these are huge pairings and characters who have riden Vagar.

And, like, Vagar participated in some of the most important battles of the conquest. There for Field of Fire, for example, one of our favorite battles to talk about. But the thing that I always like to think about with Vagar is that Vigar

is so formidable, so fierce. she doesn't even need to fight to get you to succumb. Like, I always love the moment where Vassania flew her to the Erie. And little, little, because this is when they're, you know, kings across the different kingdoms at this point, obviously, as the conquest is unfolding. Queen Erin just has to bend the knee as little young king Ronald. It's just like running around. I want to go for a ride on the dragon.

Like, you can just fly into someone's courtyard and bend them to your will. if you have Vagar on your side. Big deal. Also, there's this line from fire and blood about Vesena that night she mounted Vagar and returned to Dragonstone and is written that when her dragon passed before the moon, that orb turned as red as blood. Like, Vagar blocks out the moon. Also, Vagar's huge.

Huge. Did you see, on House of Dragons Belt, they said, there was a moment on there where they said that Vigar is 150 meters long. The moment when. When Amund lands Vagar on the patio where they had a whole reception and just smashes the, like, tents and tables that were out there. Do you think the Westerosie event planners have just, like, thrown their hands up at this point? And they're like, why do we ever even bother to plan anything? Vagher is so big, like, Vigar doesn't fit in the dragon pit.

like bigger is the size of a football field and a half what are they going to do and I did I loved that I loved that about the claiming sequence too like the the heft is really so well presented these camera angles that it just exacerbated like Aiman looks like a little speck of sand standing there I loved that one shot where because we see and this was cool too you know even though Aymn didn't have a dragon in the prior episode we we we know here it's really cemented, like he's paying attention, studying. He's ready with these Valerian commands. With the commands.

Yeah. Like, which was huge, you know, knows what to do. And the way that, like, Vagar can turn and see him trying to grab and climb the ropes, but that one head-on shot. Or like her face. Check-offs. You mean check-offs of ropes that were dangling off of Vager? You called that.

I just, I thought that was all. That was also amazing. and the way that they're shaking him off and the straight, the straight ascent and descent and like the way that he passes that test and what that cements in that moment was just really extraordinary.

And it's like, I guess we should note a couple things about the fire and blood version because one of the inciting incidents in the text is that Vesaris is kind of like, if you're bold enough, not about Vagar specifically, that's something he does on his own,

but Veseris tells him that because they're going to be dragon stone. They'll swing by dragonstone. Yeah. Go get an egg if you're bold enough. If the lad is bold enough is the quote. And then it continues even at Tanyam on Targaryen did not lack for boldness.

The king's jib stung and he resolved not to wait for dragonstone. What did he want with some puny hatchling or some stupid egg right there at high tide was a dragon worthy of him? They are the oldest largest, most terrible dragon in the world. Oh. Great stuff. And I mean, I like in this episode how it's like he keeps hearing Vagar's song like throughout the episode. That, again, that makes it much more like that sort of mystical, magical animal bond stuff that you like.

The call. Yeah, the call. The Kyber crystal might as we might as be calling to him. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, we need to give him in his credit here. He's about to say some shitty things. So we'll talk about that in a second. But, like, we did something very extraordinary here.

And, like, you know, if I'm sitting here saying, I wish we had seen young Lena do this because what a badass thing. What a badass thing for this young boy to do this. So, congratulations, amen, two eyes while you're still aiming two eyes. I always loved the book description. Call it boldness. Call it madness. Call it the fortune or the will of the gods.

Yeah, that's great. Well, but also that quote also has the, what is it, the capriciousness of dragon? What does it say? Yeah. We did get some questions from people. I didn't pull any specific emails about this, but we got some questions with people of like, how can Vagar who had Lena,

someone is like, cool as Lena as a writer, then Bond to Eamon. Like, what is a dragon looking for in a rioter, etc.? Again, it's Caprice. We don't know what these dragons are looking for, and they don't often claim or always claim or are claimed by people with similar personalities necessarily.

So. Great point. Time to talk about an eye for an eye. Before we get to the fur and eye part. Let's first talk about an eye. Joe. Yeah. Absolutely harrowing scene. But let's start with a change that they made

that really worked for the better, which is who spots the vagar claiming in the first place. And we talked about this in the book section last. week because the trailer gave us a little clue to this because we had, I think it's Raina saying, or maybe Bella, I can't so. But like, what are them saying? Like, someone's taking vigor, waking Jace up. So in the book, it's Jof, who's like three, I think at this point. We taught. We taught. Yeah. And they were like Joph, who could never sleep. So apparently he was like just a toddler wandering her around often. Same. Yeah. Yeah. This toddler with insomnia

discovers that Amen is doing this. And there's just already this deep animosity between Allison's kids and Rainier's kids. And so the fight just comes from we hate each other vibes out of the book. And I like how much more complicated it is here because you add it, first of all, it takes place at Lainor's funeral, not Lina's funeral.

So it's like less egregious, I suppose. And then to have Raina, who we've established, as a kid who like Amon doesn't have a dragon and feels insecure about it was I guess planning had it downed her had it downed her calendar to claim Vagar

and Amon just beat her to the punch here so that makes it just so much more personal which again also makes Jason Luke that much more heroic that they get involved here because basically like Jopsy's Aeman trying to claim Vagar and is like, don't do that.

And then Aymn just pushes Jop down. So when Amon's on his flight, Jop runs and gets the boys and comes back. And all three of the boys attack. And the girls aren't even there. All three of the boys attack Aeman and the fight goes from there. It's so much more virtuous for Jason Luke. I mean, first of all, it's fun that the girls are there. I liked watching Bala Punch.

Amen, that was really fun, right? But again, I think it puts Jason Luke in the much more like John Snow, Rob Stark sort of model for them to be there to like protect their cousins rather than boys will be boys and fight each other with knives, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's a great point about how personal at all feels here. And like the vitriol, obviously the violence, given that it's five children like pummeling each other is. really, really horrific and hard to watch. But it's not just the shock of the physical nature of this, of this fight.

Like the deeply cold and cruel sentiments that are being hurled here. It's him. It's me. Vega is my mother's dragon. Your mother's dead. Vega has a new rider now. She was mine to claim. Then you should have claimed her.

I mean, this is hard. I think it is tough to refrain. in that moment, but I will say I think this is such, this is such a marked difference between this Amand and the one we saw at the funeral who is smiling feebly over the brazier at Jase. So how much just becoming the writer of Vagar change this kid's attitude? It's night and day, right? I mean, again, like the gall of claiming her at the funeral in this like grave affront, also, yeah, what that would cement for him to go so quickly from feeling like an outsider, like somebody who didn't have this signifier of Targaryen might and Valerian lineage that everybody

else has when it's clearly something that he values so dearly to then be the writer of, like, the most fabled beast in the land, it's a confidence booster. It's a real come-up frame. I mean, we see the way that that's manifesting in real. time and again, very upsetting fashion because he calls Luke and Jace bastards. This is the insult that everyone will be discussing in the next scene. He says that Luke will die screaming in flames just like his father. Now, this is a hideous thing to say.

And poor sweet Luke has no clue what's going on, but Jace obviously does and is moved by his shame and his rage to act leading to the, this dagger technique that Little Luceris has, holding the blade upside down for that upward momentum of the slice, the burst of blood, the shriek, there's the little kind of team up because Jace, he kicks the dirt up in Amon's face first before Luke uses Jace's blade.

There's also a rocket play here, Joe. Which is really interesting. Not in the book as far as I can, recall. We got this really interesting email from Isaac about it. Someday I'll be ready. Okay. Anyway, Isaac wrote, the shots of Damon holding the rock and approaching his late lady wife and that of Amon holding the rock during his fight with his cousins, nephews actually, are very similar. Damon is well known as the rogue prince and Otto calls Amon that rogue in episode seven. Damon is tormented by

Vassar's offer for aid in the stepstones, causing Damon to throw caution to the wind and rush the crab feeder by himself. Eamon is tormented by his kin for not being a dragon rider, causing him to throw his own caution to the wind and claim his dragon. So, plenty of people over the years have pointed out that Amand, which is the name of this kid, is unusual that Amon is a very, Amen with no D at the end is a very common Westerosy Targaryen name, but Amend with a D at the end is uncommon, and Amid with a D at the end. at the end is just Damon with the D move to the end. So this like parallel between Amid and Damon. But I think the rock here is key

and that use of rogue, I think is very interesting. I love that. That's a great observation. Somebody who's less pleased with what is unfolding is Sir Harold Westerling who comes in drawn by the shrieks. And with a audible quivering in his voice, Steve, what does he say when he wrote?

rolls over Prince Amen and looks upon his visage. God's Be Good. Now, we already have a God's Be Good on the Soundboard, but now I think we have like, it's multi-purpose because Beesbury, it's more like, do we have a little bit of a rivaled humor, is like someone doing something inappropriate. This is a God's Be Good that indicates horror. And we need that kind of versatility on Steve Allman's Soundboard. And listen, I love it.

We all agree that we have not had enough Graham McTavish in general in this show. So welcome to. the sound more Graham McTavish. He's given us a couple amazing gods be goods moment. Like when he saw David on the Iron Throne at the Reindeer, Good. This stretch in fire and blood begins with the line, the cruelty of children is known to all.

Now, sure, but I think that we would contest that once again, the more central observation and question is about what the adults have passed on to their children and how the cruelty that they are teaching and instilling and indoctrinating is then manifesting anew. And it's like the blight, you know, it starts on one leaf and then it's all over your tree. Are I mixing out my stories here? Yeah, listen to the Rings of Power episodes with you guys. Yeah, because the other passage from the section is the enmity between Queen Allison and Princess Renier was passed onto their sons. The Queen's boys, Prince Egon, Amund grew to be bitter rivals of their Valerian nephews, resentful of them for having stolen

what they regarded as their birthright, the Iron Throne itself. Now, the show decided to do something much more complicated, I think, but that idea of enmity and vitriol passed down to the generations, though I would say that, like, in this version, again, the sort of heroification of Reneira, I would not accuse Reneer of passing down that hatred to her sons. at least not yet but like Allison's like okay

we're getting to the four and I we're going from an eye to four and I right? Yeah four and I never just got some some strong questioning

you know well I'm fast warning but I just want to say like when Amon's like when they're like who told you this and even just looks at his mom like that's where he got it from

so anyway let's talk about this incredible scene let's go into the hall with dozens of the cast members assembled here. This was really like one of the highlights of the season. And I think this is a cool instance too of like an emblematic of how the show is adapting the text because on the one hand, like many of the broad strokes are the same.

But we build really meaningfully on a couple key lines, expand them in full and we get a totally new understanding of not only what is transpiring, but the severity of it. So, for example, here is the line about what transpires specifically between Reneira and Allison. Quote, his grace further commanded his wife and daughter to kiss and exchange vows of love and affection, but their false smiles and empty words deceived no one but the king. First of all, tough look for Vassaris. They're the only one who bought it. But we go from false smiles and empty words to unleashing the dagger of prophecy in some of the sickest,

that we've seen on the show yet. Before we get to the dagger and that real moment of consequence between Allison and Reniro, let's talk about some of the, just the general, like, staging and choreography of this scene, because it really does feel like everybody is up on stage at a theater production, Joe. You get auto next to the driftwood throne. Our guy loves to stand next to a seat of power. you have this once things really reach their head, this circle of onlookers where you have a moment like,

Damon, shooting out to meet Kristen, people are, it does really feel like a dance. A dance. And we've been tracking these moments of like, when are we getting these dances leading up to the dance and this kind of symbolic significance? And then a lot of key positioning of characters that cement the idea of the greens and the blacks

and who is standing next to whom, who has an arm around whom, who is positioning themselves near whom. So like, for example, Taylor, you know, a member of the Greens. I need to talk about Taylor for a second, okay? So Taylor is conspicuously positioned. Taylor is the red-headed maid, lady-in-waiting, whatever you want to call her, who is an attendant to Allison.

And she is positioned very significantly right next to the fire right behind Amen. her significant positioning a couple times in the show has prompted this theory that I've seen on TikTok and Twitter and elsewhere that Taylor is for is it Taylor not Talia it's Taylor is for some reason Melisandra I guess because she has red hair and Melisandra Tali okay she has red hair and melisandra has red hair so we mentioned Talia watch like last week, and we were like on the lookout. And Talia may still have some roles to play. But we do want to point out, in a meta way, this actress, it's Alexis Rabin, I think, is Miguel Saposchnik's wife and also an executive producer on the show. So it is possible

than the last two episodes that were both, I believe, directed by Miguel Sapachnik. His wife might have gotten some favorable camera angles. That's something that happens sometimes. So I'm just saying she might be Melisandra. I don't think she is because why wouldn't they just have Chris Van Hutt and play her? But like, you know, and I'm not anti-Melisandra showing up at one point. I'm just saying that would be great. Yeah. Her prevalence here, I don't know that it is what we, what the most conspiracy.

And you know I love a conspiracy in a theory. But in this case, I think it might just be a case of this is the director's wife. All right, we're keeping our eyes out from Elisandra elsewhere, however. I'm not sure that Fissaris is keeping his eyes peeled from Melesandra because he can barely keep it together here. Before we get to the Reneer Allison's direct exchanges, like, let's just chat about Fassaris for a second in this scene. Because this is not the first time that this has been true for our guy.

But, again, Taiwan comes to mind because I kept thinking about the moment where Taiwan says, any man who must say I am the king is no true king. And the number of times that Vassaris has to shout, your father, your grandsire, your king, he's talking to his own family members and the just lack of respect that his own children, that his wife, that these people of the realm feel,

like he is so visibly not the one in control. You noted already that very rich moment. when Amid looks over to Allison before ratting out Agon and answering Vassaris's question and doing what he's demanding. Allison openly and repeatedly challenging him to the point of just shock by taking the dagger right off of his hip. Even Agon's reply, like the just look at them was iconic. But Viseras has spent the last two episodes saying, do not speak this aloud.

like don't say anything about this ever again, both in privacy in their chambers with Allison and then to the room at large, like I'll have your tongue if you say this again. His own son has, I mean, like he doesn't seem thrilled about being put on blast like this, but he says it in front of the whole room. Nobody takes Vassaris seriously.

He's got to shout, this interminable infighting must cease, and it's like, yeah, I'm, Vesaris, I'm sure everything will be fine, and it'll just be a peaceful quiet. show from here. You've mentioned a couple times the like, Circe in the Kings Road episode of Game of Thrones

or in the scene from the book and the Allison comp. And like, you know, the... Allison says your son has been made, her son is responsible. And Circe says, and what are the die wolf? What are the beasts of savage your son? Like, these are clear parallels. Something I love... Still not over it.

Lady didn't deserve to die and it wasn't right. It wasn't fair to Donna. Anyway, to shout out History of Westrop's podcast again, a show that I love listening to, Aziz on that show pointed out that Corley's busts into the Hall of Nine here saying, what is the meaning of this? Which is the exact same thing that Ned Stark says when he busts in and like his daughters have been called into thing before him. So like there's a lot of intentional language here that is calling out to that scene.

I love it. I love it. Speaking of intentional language, I'm curious what you made of Renera's choice because Jace, you know, whispers to Reneira, what transpired, this insult about questioning their parentage. And this is something that obviously there's a desire to quiet this, to stifle this. But she chooses to kind of shout it into a megaphone in this room to really bring, like, almost like the calculation is the only way I will be able to quiet this is first to shout it aloud, to bring everything to a boiling point. Was that the thought process and does that

strike you as the right decision given what unfolded? It's not what I would have done personally, but I guess I perhaps were near as like, well, I tried running away and hiding and they burned my boyfriend and all this other shit has happened. And so let's try a different tactic, I suppose. But again, sort of like similar to Corley's being like, go get your patron out of the ocean. Like I just, it's not what I would do publicly. No. Right. Speaking of things that people are doing publicly, can we have for a second about Allison and Christopher?

and how absolutely vile what transpires here is. Yeah. So Allison makes this remark about Lena, right? Says, like, no doubt what entertaining young squire is just something like that. And Kristen's goddamn laugh. And then again, Harold Westerling gives him a look. I just made my blood boil. Made me so angry.

Real, uh, this person's a piece of shit stuff from Kristen there. Yeah. And like Kristen Cole, Kristen Cole laughing at a gay joke a few episodes after beating a face off of a gay character. I'm just like, yeah, this guy is not a good guy. Truly, truly awful. Even Kristen doesn't go along with Allison's demand here,

which again, given how we feel about Kristen is like pretty notable. Allison's, this is the eye for an eye. She demands there's a debt to be paid. I shall have one of her son's eyes. in return. She says, if the king will not seek justice, the

queen will, right? And so then we are forced to think about the phrase the queen's justice, which is the name of a Game of Thrones episode where Circe puts poison lipstick on a young girl and ties are of Tyina and Lauria. This is when

Circe devises the whole, like, awful thing with the Laurian. It's also where John Snowmey's denarius for the first time. But the notion of the queen's justice, at least as we are familiar with it from Game of Thrones, was always a terrible thing. Like, the Queen's justice is not a clean concept. Yeah. You know, so to associate.

The depth that you will sink to, absolutely. Yeah. So again, which feels a little charged. But anyway, again, the associations between Allison and Circe are super clear. Yeah. Yeah. And that idea, that idea with the Alice and Circy comp, and those are, those are, great specific examples of

of comparison. They're like that the idea because how does that end up happening in season seven it's you're on like I know what you need and want and this idea that the only thing

that can bring you peace and your version of justice is inflicting pain on other people who have inflicted it on you. It's an eye for an eye it's a daughter for a daughter. Exactly. and the horrors that are destined to unfold from that kind of pursuit.

So when she, now, okay, we have seen this dagger moment. It's heavily featured in the trailers. So it's like we knew this was coming. We were looking forward to it. But even so, it is truly shocking. It's shocking for everybody in that scene. It is extra potent for us as viewers, Joe, because of what we know the dagger represents, this dagger of prophecy.

So you have the symbolism of Reneira staring at the dagger right against her eye on the backdrop of that fire, fire and blood we hear throughout this episode, the significance of the might of House Targaryen, this symbol of her duty, this burden of Targaryen rule that has been passed down to her, the secret that Faseras has entrusted to her, as Allison is lecturing her about how she doesn't abide by the idea of duty. It's the quote that opened our episode, and Rainier is staring into the representation of the duty that she alone understands,

and Vassarious understands that she has absorbed. And this is something that we've talked about. Now, I'm still here happy to ride the wave of your, did Chris and Cole see that dagger go in the fire question, right? He picks it up in this scene, Joe. I know. I freaked out. I was like, I thought.

I thought of you. Someone got back from it immediately. You know I love a theory. I'm here for it. But this reinforces something that I thought was interesting, which is this idea of two sides of the dance, one side knowing about the prophecy, the dagger, and the other side not.

And that's at least what we get in this, in the microcosm of this scene, is that Reneira knows about the heaviness of the burden of the duty that she's carrying, and Allison has no idea. And I love how quickly how quickly this comes to this raging boil because we've seen Allison on the simmer for so long and I think

I love this line that Martin writes in Game of Thrones it's about Ned Stark and the Lannisters but it's this line, some old wounds never truly heal and bleed again at the slightest word and that's what we watched this show build between Allison and Reneera for five episodes before the time jump we got these adults,

is that old wound that we're just going to see burst open, you know, again and again. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And it manifests in a literal wound here. And Allison is confronting, again, I think these moments where Allison has to confront either what she does directly or what the people who she is surrounding herself with

are capable of doing. And like, not only does she say when she's talking to Auto later that she regrets it, that it was ugly, but the way that she drops the blade there, almost like she's coming out of like a fugue state. And yet it is not that at all because what she is expressing here is like the fundamental core germ and heart of this divide. And we get that from both of them, which is part of why this is such a great moment and such a great scene. You know, we've chatted for the last few episodes about this idea of jealousy and resentment and how the way that like Alice,

You know, when she's saying here, where it wears duty, where a sacrifice trampled under your pretty foot again, when she's saying, I was thinking about Allison Tevin, having like a, like a foot fetters or something, just, uh. Tell me. We were talking about that before we started recording just for some context. I was like, imagine someone's yelling at you and then they call your feet pretty. And I'd be like, oh, you think my feet? Wiki feed bookmark, Joe. What do you think? No? Yes.

Are you really? Oh, God. But when Allison says, like, what have I done but what was expected of me forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flouted all to do as you please. Now, on the one hand, this is such a deeply, like, vulnerable and human moment. And I think we desperately need instances like this where Allison is showing the unvarnished root of her resentment and her despair, like the first. fact that she did not get to do as she wanted and to live her life freely the way that she

thinks Renair did. You know, we chat, we started like chatting about this at length in that conversation they had on the bench in episode four and how like Allison was saying, well, you're getting to make choices that very few people do. And Renair was saying, but I'm so trapped inside of this. And that that was like such a divide between them. And you feel that so fully here, because on the one hand, Renera did get to enjoy a type of freedom, sexual freedom. And in other ways too, that Allison has not. And that in some ways she is judged, but also maybe in other ways she longs for, but it is also then true that Reneira is bound by duty in just a different form and shape than the version of it that Alicent not only thinks defines her life, but things now

should define the nature of the law and the land and the realm. And so like when Reneira fires back at her exhausting, wasn't it? Hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness, but now they see you as you are. It's like such an incredible crackling comeback because they are both speaking in a way that because of those first five episodes allows us to understand deeply

and like intimately what has informed that, what has informed what they're saying to each other. But they're also then like both still wearing this mask either because they've needed to, they've been put in these positions by Sarah. other people in the realm, whatever the case may be, auto, chipping away, chipping away at that facade line after line here, scene after scene, you can only put on that front for so long. And so if you're carrying those burdens and those truths inside of you, like, you need to be

able to share them with other people. And it's part of why the Renera Damon union, as you mentioned earlier, it feels so, so consequential. There's a couple things I want to say here. Number one, this interaction, or my exhausting, wasn't it? Now they see you remember it, blah, blah, reminded me so. much of fights I used to have with my sister where I was like the younger child, the younger sister, and I would always be like out of control and nothing made me anger than when my sister was completely calm and cool and collected. So Reneira taking the calm, cool, collected

high ground here is like just salt in the wound, right? And it made me feel like this is Reneura's version, like, because Allison to, like everyone in this room sees Allison behaving wildly and out of control. And it reminds me of sort of some of the stuff we talked about with Rainira, like, trailing blood through the castle or leaking breast milk at the small council, stuff like that. Yeah, and Allison being like Renira when, when Renira is leaking breast milk. And this is sort of like the other, the other side of that is like, now they see you as are. And it's both of them, I think, wielding that patriarchal, hysterical woman thing, like,

at each other. And, you know, in that spirit, I would like to try to muster up some sympathy for Allison here if I can. Let's do it. We got this email from Sarah, who wrote, in part, the other piece to consider is this fear that has been at the forefront of Allison's mind for a decade, that Reneer will kill her children in order to strengthen her claim to the throne. This is the first time that idea has been tested with her son being assaulted and maimed. Regardless of fault, the king does nothing to defend Amon,

his own child. If this is what happens now, what will happen when more serious and grave threats develop? By Fasera is doing nothing to avenge Amon, he is proving to Allison that her father was right and that no one will defend her family from harm. I think that's a fair assistant.

Great point. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. When you've been indoctrinated to believe that this wound and attack and assault is inevitable, and then it feels like it's happening right in front of you in real time. Like, what wouldn't you do to try to stop it,

including demanding, darling little Luceris, hilarious, or a little Luke! That's a great email. That's a great point. I know, I know. I know that I am biased in favor of Damon to Carrie, and I know this. But I think there's nothing hotter in this episode than when he stands, and blocks Kristen Cole,

just like casually launches himself off his lean position on the wall and just stops him with like one hand, honestly. He has more of a wider seepers build, but like could have played left tackle in the NFL. I mean, the, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Remarkable. Oh my God. I have to say, again, Amund has done some terrible things, but also remarkable is when he stands up stitched together his, his face stitched together and says, do not mourn me, mother.

It was a fair exchange. I may have lost an eye, but I gained a dragon. Like, incredible line. This is a character to be reckoned with. We can feel this developing in real time in front of us. But I think also, like,

I was thinking about it here with his line and with what Otto says to Allison later. I keep thinking about that moment last week. Allison's line to Amund about how his obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding. And like which characters actually do understand this about what like what this means and what this represents.

And like not every character is focused on the same thing and that's actually good and important. But when does that disconnect surface in some sort of like meaningful way? And I mean, we can go unless there's anything else you wanted to say, Joe, about this eye for an eye moment into that debrief after with Allison's and Otto, which was also fascinating. Yeah.

Allison doesn't really get it, but Otto definitely does about what just happened here. He's thrilled. Couldn't be happier. Which is a totally normal and cool reaction to have when your grandson loses an eye. But yeah, he along with everyone else, is like, Allison maybe put the knife down, babe, like was the public reaction. but in private, he's quite proud of her and definitely proud of what happened with Amen.

What do you want to say about this? When she is saying that she disgraced herself, I was most struck actually, not only by her shame and her regret, but the way that she says that the thing she did, quote, ensured my husband's favor will forever rest on her because I think that's a big source of Allison's

bitterness and resentment too. What was this all for? of this duty, all of this sacrifice, if Vissaris doesn't even care about their own kids or side with her and always chooses Reneira. And so for her to feel like the thing that she did to try to stop that in some way cemented it is like a real source of agony for her. And Otto just channeling Allison's not the only one channeling Searcy. I mean, Otto is doing his best when you play the Game of Thrones, Circe Lannister here, when he says we play an ugly game. game and now for the first time, I see that you have the determination to win it. I was so, like,

interested in this exchange because, okay, on the one hand, Otto Hightower comes back from his 10-year hiatus having learned nothing. And in fact, having doubled down, we could see that he is more devoted to House Hightower's aims than ever. Also, like, in some ways, he is speaking to Allison as more of a partner than he ever has before. You and I will prevail together, he says. You and I. You and and I together will prevail, he says. But he's also still treating her as this pawn to deploy. Master your own passions. Go to him. And like, that is, that is sickening to see the band-in-ne-necath is not changed. Go to the king. Oh, God. It's just horrible. Was there anything else that you want to say now that we are talking about Otto about his line about Eament? Claiming Vagar?

What that rogue Eamon has done, winning Vagar to our side, the boy was right, it's worth a thousand times the price he paid. A lot of people are pointing out that a very famous line from a song of vice and fire is a thousand eyes and one, which is how the three-eyed raven, three-eyed crow is described. So it's worth a thousand times the price he paid. So a thousand eyes and one. It may or may not be a reference to that, but it's kind of fun. Should we pause, though, and take stock of the size?

We asked Chris this, and that was. fun and put him on the spot. But like, let's do, should we do some quick dragon math here at the end of all things and say, it's not the end of all things, but like, because we still need to talk about C-smoke, obviously. But like, we have some question mark and some variables. Given how Rainius was behaving in this episode, I don't know where her dragon Maly's belongs. But Agon, Amund, and Helena, which are the totality. of Dragon Riders on the green side. That's Sunfire, Dreamfire,

and Vagar, who's worth, like, five dragons and one, like, huge, right? That's what Otto's recognizing. Reneera, Damon, those kids, that's

Karax's, Syrax. Vermax, ARAX, Moondancer. So, Vermax, ARAX, and Moondenser, I think are all too small to ride currently, but that changes quickly. Jophe has. an egg. Raina has an egg that we know hasn't hatched, but does have an egg. And then C-Smoke, as you noted, currently riderless. Yeah. So that's, yeah. That's the dragon math. That's the math.

I mean, advantage still numbers game. Advantage Reneera, right? But those tiny dragons versus Vagar. Like, this is why Otto is so pleased with themselves. Like, then with what's going on. Hermax is like the size of Begar's, like, pinky toe. Yeah. Oh, God. Okay. Laynor. We got a lot of Laynor stuff to cover at the end of this episode and Renera.

So before we get to the fake out, we have a really emotional exchange. Lainor comes to speak to Reneira. There's a moment of comedy before the more intense. The exchange sets in when he asks if everyone's okay, and we just like zoom in on Jace's oozing head and Luke's broken nose and their expressions on their faces. I will miss all of the kids in these current roles. They're just wonderful.

I loved when Lainer said, I should have been there and Riner said there should be our house words. I genuinely think Reneira and Damon are far, far in a way, the funniest characters on this show. So good. The shit they say. Such a wit. We get a lot of despair, though.

The kids leave, Maester leaves, and there are so many heart-wrenching moments here when Lainor is sharing the different things that are on his mind. He talks first about the idea of protection and says, I've fought dreadful enemies, but I could not defend my dear sister, far from home and in agony. I could not defend you. Talks about their marriage.

She says, I failed you, Renira, our marriage. I tried. I tried, like crushed me. He talks about being gay. He says, I hate the gods for making me as I did. And Reneira says, I don't. And says that he's a good man with a good heart. And we see this searching.

Again, this is like why people are like, oh, you're rooting for Reneira to eat. No, like she says stuff like this. Whereas Alicent is making snide jokes in the fucking, no, I like, I like, here a lot. So that's all I should say about that. I know. This was this was a really touching stretch. And we also get really key set up inside of one of these touching lines because Lenore says, we made an arrangement all those years ago to do our duty and yet explore happiness. And they

kind of both, they both share a little chuckle. Like, oh, what sweet summer children we were when we thought that was possible, right? And he continues, but there are times when I think these things cannot mutually exist, which is devastating. And he says that he's recommitting. He's going to choose that duty and supporting her ascension over his own happiness. But we can glean, as we'll talk about more in a few minutes, when we watch this death fake out unfold, that they decide to flip this, that he can fulfill his duty to Reneer up by leaving so that she can marry Damon. And in so doing, hopefully, find his own happiness. Now, that is not an idea without tradeoffs because he's leaving his family, his name, his life behind.

But hopefully that he can find that happiness. And he has this line where he says, you know, that he's loved the boys, but perhaps, but I have not mayhaps love them enough is what he says. I think it's really interesting. I've seen so many interpretations of what happens here with Lanor at the end. And we'll go through sort of our understanding of what the plan and order of events is. but like I do not see this as in any version of this is Reneira cruelly turning away a man who is deeply, deeply attached

to his children in his life here. We have seen Lainor in the last episode talk about dying to go to the stepstones and be back in battle and have an adventure and like, yes, he does love these boys, but like maybe not enough. Like, you know, it's just sort of like, he's deeply unhappy.

He's crying, he's drunk and crying in the, Like, that's who Lanar is in this role. And so what happens next is not a clean thing because, as we've mentioned, innocent, as far as we know, man dies in order to carry this plan out. But I see this as an act of kindness. Yes, Reneer is getting what she wants, but she's freeing him. So I see it as an act of kindness. We'll get to it more.

Let's chat for a second here about the Greens departing before we. go back into the way that this plan takes shape? What do you want to say by your guy, Laris? Team Green and shambles here. All right. Again, if we're if we're talking about like let's be sly and subtle, Laris not so sly and subtle here, right? When he, when he offers to bring, bring an eye.

Allison looks upset, but also may be slightly tempted, right? But she tells him his devotion is not going to notice. but she'll need a friend with skill and discretion. So discretion, Laris. Let's just cool out. Wait till we're in my chambers and we're having one of our famous shoeless dinners together, you know? Yeah.

It's nothing more discreet than coming to shout on a ship about whether you'd like me to go claim an eye for you. True devotion. But yeah, Viseris is in shambles. Yes. Allison's just pouring wine down his throne. It's a real messy time for Team Green, honestly. One thing I love about Viseras is that there's always a blanket nearby.

I love a blanket. I love a fleece blanket. Goals. Cuddling up after a hard day. Aspirational. Okay. Renair's plan, taking shape here. We get a ton of, as we allude to, really fascinating fire talk from Reneera and Dan

that tells us and shows us how they think about themselves in their Targaryen lineage. Renera says, fire has such strange power. Everything that House Targaryen possesses is owed to it, yet it has cost us both what we loved. Of course, speaking of Lena and Harwin. And Harwin. Yeah, yeah. We also get clues in this first, the first part of this exchange, because we cut in between these scenes, these scenes a lot.

We also cut between them speaking the common tongue and High Valerian, as as is there wont. Reneer says fire is a prison. And again, I think you do feel that idea of then, like, the burden of her duty as the air. The sea offers an escape. So this is one of the big, for us, one of the big supporting bits of evidence

for all of these characters, Reneer, Damon, Lainor and Carl are in cahoots together. Cahutes. The sea is that escape there for her to marry Damon, for Lainor to go live a different life. This is the, structure where Renira, she's speaking in Valeria, but says the greens aloud, which again,

very, very consequential there. Something we've been, like, not saying outside the book section is the idea of team green and team black, but like, oh, God, those are the teams. Here we are. Here we are. And she says she needs him. Here is that idea again, needing him. Ask him to get hitched, to get married.

She invokes Egon, the Conqueror, which I was really interested in because Taman is of course infamously done this previously and earned Vassaris's horrified wrath in return. But I loved it that this was a pitch that was layered and nuanced and anchored in many different, like equally present things. I think there is this shared tragedy, this feeling of being cast aside that not only did Reneer a just voice, but that has kind of permeated both of their arcs. There's a very sincere attraction. and desire. You know, Vassar said, find one that pleases you and she sure did. She has. Yeah. There's this political savviness with you as my husband and Prince Consort, my claim would not be so easily challenged. Thinking, thinking though strategically about what will help to strengthen and cement her standing.

And then the sense of shared targ kinship, right? Which is clearly what Allison is thinking, engaging Egon to Helena, right? is like, let's shore it up targ on targ marriage. Let's please the realm with this sort of thing. And like she has a little bit, obviously the Tyrion where like armor speech is one of the most famous in Thrones and really focuses on like, actually if you're not one of the people in a position of power, this is how to make your way through your day. And obviously it's different here.

But I think there's like a shared strand of DNA when Renera says the Valerians are of the sea, but you and I are made of fire. we have always been meant to burn together. It's like, this is who we are. Let's own it. Speaking of Tyrion, this great line, never forget what you are. For surely, the world will not.

Make it your strength that it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used, right? This is what you're talking about. So it's like that, lean into it. Lean into your dark nature.

Timon's a leaner. Oh, God. All right, Joe, let's go through the Lanark fake out here. Where do you want to start with this? Well, good news is Damon. Uncle Damon has packed the murder cloak for the funeral. You always need it.

Yeah. You never know when you're going to need the old murder cloak. But so he approaches Carl and the murder cloak, right? And this is something that book readers are ready for because a version of the story in the book is that Damon pays Carl to kill Lainor. and then kills Carl. So when we hear Damon talk to Carl about you can start a new life elsewhere,

we're meant to think, oh, he's trying to tempt Carl with money and a new life across the narrow sea. But at the same time, we see Damon kill someone in the stairwell. Need a corpse to swap out. What's that about, question mark, right? Carl and Lena have this very fake scene.

mean duel. Lainor, I have notes on your acting. The witness that they have there runs off. We will need witnesses, I said, right? The witness they have a young boy runs off. And in that time, they swap Lainor's body for the guy that David killed. And he's burnt. So I guess you can't identify the body.

I feel like maybe his parents would know that it's a different body. but I guess not. Rainis and Corleys very upset. And this is my biggest issue with the plan so that we're not bringing Rainis and Corleys in on it. Maybe we will eventually.

And Lenore we see head shaved, heads off with Carl. A lot of people have compared this to Gendre rowing away. From Dragonstone. I think I understand what happened here that Reneura and Lainor and Carl and Damon together,

all four of them have come up with this plan. Damon helps, actively helps the plan happen, make the plan happen by killing a rando and sticking him in the fire and all that sort of stuff. A, are confused by what happened, just generally confused by the order of events. And then B, I've seen a lot of different interpretations of like, oh, Reneer, I wanted him dead,

but, Damon, you know, like, I really believe there's only one way to read this, which is all four of them are in cahoots. Reneira wants to marry Damon, yes, but she does not want to kill Lainor. But as they discuss, it doesn't hurt them for people to think that maybe she did to instill fear and have that reputation. It is possible, though, given how many people are confused or have these differing interpretations, that the show may have aired slightly in favor of a surprising twist,

a confusing edit that baffled some people, you know. Yeah, definitely. Okay, but what about C-Smoke, though? Okay, so Lainor... Yeah, I have a question about this. Ditch the hair. Tell me your question about C-Smok, Mallory. Lanor's...

One, I'm just like, what if C-Smok like follows him or tries to find him and then that's it? Cover blown. Now, you know, again, this is like a change from fire and blood where as far as... So there are two ways to put this, I guess. One is, this is a change. In the book, Lainor is dead. dead period. He's stabbed. So, like, there's no equivalent of the burning of the body to try to say,

oh, well, maybe there was, like, a swap out. Doesn't, there, there is this line about, like, how his, his death is such a mystery and remains a mystery. So, like, maybe there's some room there. But I think the fact that the stabbed body is there makes it very hard to say that he's alive in the book. So it's different. And it happens in the middle of a market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess. like you could say, though, that this is another example of, like, what history remembers. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's what happened. But I at least am going with that this is just a change. And I'm glad. I'm glad that Lainor was not killed and is not dead. I think that's a good change.

It does introduce some canon questions like the Seas Smoke, the point you're making. We heard as recently as last week in the Dragon Pit training sequence about like once you bond with your dragon, take no commands from anyone else while you live. Right. Like there's no precedence. Yeah. This is just new. In George R. Martin for there to be two dragon riders while a dragon, like you cannot claim a dragon while their rider is still alive. So the question is, is Seas Smoke just going to be hanging around unclaimable?

what's going to happen? And would that not be suspicious? Yeah, right. I wonder if Lainor had a chat with C-Smoke and was like, listen, here's what I need to do. How? I don't know. I mean, I'll just say, like, I agree with your interpretation. That's mine as well that this, that everybody is in cahoots.

And I think the, you know, the grant him, this kindness set him free line, I guess is among the other bits of evidence that we, but I think that what you pointed out about, like, the very overt they are acting, like, this is. There's just no way Lainor walks in sees Carl there and is like, what are you doing here? Like they're roaming drunk through the halls together. Like I think that's a real tale of the daemon's involved in with the body. It's definitely like, I'm interested too if this, if our interpretation is correct and they're all in on it together, then what it says like that Lainor makes a choice that's different from Reneira's, you know, going across the narrow sea to live a different life. Now Reneer didn't love Kristen or want to be with him in that way.

but like I like that too that the same thing is not right for everybody. Though again, like, while I'm thrilled that Lainor is alive, I do think it's,

and I hope that he made the choice that is right for him and that brings him happiness and allows him to follow happiness. But it's like, it's not without tradeoffs because he is leaving his family,

his dragon, his name behind, and like, it's heartbreaking that that's a thing that he has to do. This is what Lainor says to Carl with a cue.

Who let you in here? Why are you in my father's hall? Yes. And Carl says you've always looked down on me. Like, it's, okay. It's play acting. All right, we got this email from Severin that I think is worth reading because a reason that a lot of people assume that the reason that Lainor survives here and Carl survives because there's a version of this where neither of them survives that Damon kills Carl after Carl kills Lainor. Is that House of the Dragon did not want to kill Joffrey two weeks.

weeks ago and then kill two other gay characters just a couple weeks later, given that this is a really dangerous trope in fiction, the barrier gayest trope. So people are, you know, maybe giving House the Dragon credit for being like, okay, great, two of your characters, gay characters survive. We got this email from Seven that I thought was interesting, though. Sevin writes, George R. Martin has had ample time to write a homosexual man or woman into his body of work who does not end up persecuted, murdered, and or tortured. He has to date not done so. The way that the writers of the show decided to deal with the homosexual characters the most recent episode of House of the Dragon is nice, kind of. But even this telling of the story is just banishment.

He, he being Martin, uses homosexual characters as a device to underscore the conservative, religious elements of the stories he tells. He could write two homosexual characters, one persecuted by the state and one who just has a normal life, but he does not. Every homosexual character he's written thus far has come to no good end. escaping to another continent with a bald head is not a victory for homosexuals. It's a victory for heteronormitivity. And like, I agree with this.

I do not, something I will say is like, George R. Martin's, I'm not making excuses, but George started writing this series in the early mid-90s, early 90s, or probably began it in the 80s, right? And I will give him the credit that at that time, like queer characters were not. necessarily being centered at all. So the fact that like Renli and the Rainbow Guard existed in a song of ice and fire felt progressive at the time. And it certainly does not feel progressive to when you start to tally up the ultimate outcome for all of the queer characters and Georgia Martin at this point in 2022. So I think that's a great email we got from Severn.

I guess we should just talk for another minute here about the idea that Damon and Reneira seem to want people to think that they're responsible because, you know, Renera says this will cost Lord Corlis and Renice, their only remaining child in the realm will whisper that I was somehow responsible. Damon says, we will know the truth of it, Reneira replies.

They will fear what else we might be capable of. Now, some of this is like I have practical questions about, you know, we see like the moment where Renice walks away from Corlis, as you noted. And if Corliss and Renice are also a, among the people who think this, or at a minimum, are hearing these whispers and the ideas entering their minds, then does that not risk compromising an allegiance

that they can't afford to lose? Like the value of House Valerian's alliance is one of the most clearly established things in the show to date. So that just feels like really perilous and risky. I guess what you can say is that they're counting on the grandchildren, not only because we talked about the way that Renice feels toward heart, kids, but

Damon and Reneera, Bella and Rana are now a part of that family, too. And Reneas does care about them. One grandparent is alleging to at least two of the grandchildren that are in their household here. Right, exactly.

But I don't know. I'm really curious to see how that shakes out and what that looks like. So a big thing that we talked about on Talk to Thrones was this idea of likeability, like what this does, is the fact that Damon, Damon does not kill Lainor here

after killing Rhea a couple weeks ago. And how in the books, it feels like Damon is like, whatever's in the way of me marrying Rania, I'm going to wipe off the board. But how that makes him even harder to root for if he were to do this with poor Lainor, who we quite like here, right?

This question of likability keeps coming up with House of the Dragon in comparison to Game of Thrones where I think it was easier to latch on to first Ned Stark. You think my life is this precious thing. John, Rob, Sonsa, Aria, like, you know, you can hold on to those kids, Bran, Ricken, I guess.

Hold on to those kids while the Lannisters and everyone else is scheming around them, right? And that people are finding it harder to take purchase on a character here. I have a couple of things to say about that. Like, one, I will say, this Martin quote about Faulkner, right? Martin says, as Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil for love, but also for hate. I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy

and not just how all the good people get together to fight the bad guy, right? So like, yes, we've had more stereotypical heroes in a song of vice empire than we do in House of the Dragon, but it has always been Martin's intention to create a world in which people are extremely messy. and at this extremely high stakes when we're talking about magical beasts and, you know, thrones made of swords and all that sort of stuff,

the messiness means sometimes you murder a serving man to save your queer husband. Like, that's the math we're doing here, you know? I'm not defending that. I'm just saying that that's, that's sort of the world that Martin is painting here. I think it's interesting how the show is working really hard to make it

to try to make it easier for us to purchase onto Reneer and Damon. One of our listeners Tina wrote in to point out that in that sequence where Reneer is proposing to Damon, there's a line from that sequence, she will block my way, presumably Reneer talking about Allison, that is in many, many trailers, but was not in the final cut.

So they cut Reneer saying, she will block my way. So like whatever language Reneer has here about Alicent, talking shit about Allison, it's cut out of this scene. So instead it's about her vulnerability, her feeling that, you know, but it's less about her vilifying Allison

in that moment, right? Which I think is an interesting edit. We also got this email from Mara and Mara and Arissa. I love an email. I love an email written by two people. But they write, on last week's pod, you shared a fantastic thesis from a listener

about House the Dragons subverting portrayals of feminism in the traditional historical fiction fantasy genre. This week we are finding ourselves a little disappointed in what feels like a lack of nuance in the Allison-Renier relationship. Empathizing with Allison has become increasingly challenging, although the narrative seems to be juxtaposing the duty and piety of Allison with the more family-oriented and humanized character of Reneira, both theoretically reasonable, morally defensible positions. Allison clearly emerges as the writer's antagonist in this episode. Moreover, the other greens, Agon, a drunk, horny teen bully, Kristen, our psychopath-jilted boyfriend,

Otto, emotionally manipulated father of the year, and these babes forgot about Laris, but add Laris to the pile, are substantially less likable than the emerging blacks, the adorable strong, sorry, Valerian children, Damon's girls, the self-made Corleys, it's hard not to just immediately see who the showrunners want us to support. So the showrunners have their thumb on the scale for the blacks here in a way that the book does not necessarily. And I think that's an attempt to give the audience someone heroic to root for.

That being said, I don't feel like, to go back to that Faulkner quote, I'm not sure we need that in order to enjoy Martin's world. But I think that's some of the calculus that the showrunners that the writers are doing to try to get. give a story that audiences are more familiar with.

Yeah, I agree. I think that, like, in those few minutes where we considered in real time watching this episode, the possibility that Renera would have decided to kill Lainor. Like, obviously, that was not, that's not something we would have wanted. We don't want Lainer to die. We don't want Reneer to be capable of that. To be clear, I'm really glad that didn't happen.

Yeah. But like, there, again, in real time as I'm watching it, there's like a part of my brain that's thinking, oh, they're really going for this. I got a little excited, right? Because in the book, it's Damon. If it's anyone, it's Damon. Right. And I was like, oh, my God.

Are they making it, Renira? Oh, they are going there with Renira. And then they were like, no, quite the opposite. She has, it concocted a plan in which her. nice gay husband can go off and frolic with his boyfriend, you know? Yeah, and, like, I think... It's interesting. Like, so Zach Cramm wrote a great piece about this for Theringer.com on a great website on

Sunday night right after this episode, this idea that like these more traditional protagonist, antagonist, heroes versus villains divides, much like what that awesome email just sketched out. Like, on the one hand, that's very traditional television storytelling. There's, there's nothing that's, like, shocking or surprising about that. that in a vacuum or even inside of the wider Thrones universe, right? I do think it's interesting, though, that so much of the run-up to the show was spent sharing and espousing this, there's no aria and the story idea. Because, like, while that on the one hand is, it is true, you know,

what Damon says in this episode, like, everybody's capable of depravity. We've already talked about what Damon himself has done. Like, there are plenty of bad or complex moral gray. We always talk about the Morrill Gray characters and happenings on Reneer's team. Definitely. Not everybody over there is an angel. But it's, see, I think very difficult to not feel that the show is much more firmly orienting Reneira as the protagonist and character who you're supposed to be aligning with at this point in a way that has, that has surprised me, both based on the book and based on, again, that George, like, very active messaging in the run-up to the show. So, I don't know.

I'll be curious to see, like, I guess that will continue. I don't know. I'll be curious to see if it does. Because, again, like, why do the five episodes of making us more sympathetic and empathetic toward Allison? If you're just going to go here, I guess you could say, like, because that's the only place you're going to get that or where you're going to really get the focus on it. But I don't know. I do still have some questions about that. It's interesting because Twitter is not real life. We know that. I swear we know that. But I put something on Twitter yesterday, I think it was, about, like, you know, like ability in people to root for and how I find that there are several people to root for. And I got a lot of responses from people saying they thought Renier was the worst, like, the person who has done the most villainy on the show, which to me is an insane reading of the show. But those people,

exist. And so I don't know how big of a population that is, but like, I just think it's funny with all this hedging and hemming and hawing and, you know, whatever done to make Rainier seem more heroic, there are still people who, who thinks she is not heroic in any way. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I think also, it's also true that like, even in the more traditional Game of Thrones original series paradigm of like Starks versus Lannisters

you want the Starks to win and again this was part of what Cram I thought did a great job of exploring his piece like you want the Starks to win but that doesn't mean you're not deeply invested in Tyrion

in Jamie and you know yeah so like that I think is an essential element if it is going to be more of that divide I think for me like we had a lot of people ask me via email and other places. Like, why do you like the character of Laris so much? He seems like such a snake. And I'm like, I love snakes. Sorry, snakes are interesting. Like, I love Circe as a character.

I love watching her. I love. Guess what show I love, Succession. And so do a lot of people. And who are we supposed to be rooting for on that show? So, you know, a lot of question. Need Laris and Allison, given all the foot talk in this episode to go from talking about eyes to walk in the teak planks talking about toenail fungus. Really give us that success. session energy here. I was like, where are we going? All right. Oh, my God.

Deck shoes. All right. Should we talk about the only good wedding we've ever seen? No one died. Huge progress. Bound in Blood Joe. Damon and Niro pop over to Dragonstone for a very quick, very quiet wedding. We get a Valerian bloodbinding ritual.

Super Targs. Here it is again. Fire and blood. Slicing open their lips and their hands with dragon glass. wearing these outfits that like incorporate the fire, the flame imagery. This was just, this was awesome. Love an Ombra, like a hand-dip-died, you know, outfit. So in the house the dragons built behind the scenes,

they talked about how these are supposed to be like sort of the formal version of the dragonkeeper outfits that we've seen on the show. Also, David Peterson, who's done all. all the language is on Game of Thrones, and now the show says that the, like, the glyphs that Damon and Reneer paint on each other's forehead, say fire and blood, like that that's what they're painting on each other's forehead and blood. But he was like, but his blood, so you can't really read the glyphs. But that's what it's supposed to say. I hope they get tats.

But I love, you know, to go, yeah, to go back to that Tyrion armor quote that you said it and then I decided to read in full. This email from Lucy, I think, is interesting. Because Lucy says about Lainor, he abandoned his Valerian and Targaryen heritage, leaving his dragon, shaving his white hair, abandoning his titles and maybe even his wealth, question mark. In making the decision that very closely parallels the one Renier refused to make with Kristen, while Renier-L-E's even further into a Targaryen heritage by marrying Damon, woo-hoo, incest, says Lucy, at Dragonstone in that very traditional ceremony. So, yeah, lean in, lean all the way into the targ. Bella's face says a lot

I'll be very curious to see how his blooded family does and I hope it's great because Reneer They didn't wait long to get hitched That's why I think Bella's face Bella is making that face But like I think that

Rineera has I think in theory Rinear would be a great stepmom She's so loving to her boys I feel like she would be really sweet to these girls but are these girls going to be down with it?

I don't know, actually. I don't know the answer to that. But Bill's face is cracking yet. But we'll find out with a new cast once again, Joe, because as you can see in the teaser for next week, the kiddos have been aged out. New performers coming in. You ready for a new cast yet again?

I mean, I really liked these kids. I'll be sad to see them go. Oh, no. That being said, I think this is the last huge. time jump and we're getting, this is several years we're getting new, new, the kids are now going to be like teens, right? And this is part of what we've been racing towards. Oh, I said this in the, in the non-book section. I said I was going to talk about it in the book section last week and then I completely forgot to in my like COVID days, but I was speculating as

to why we were racing ahead. And I won't say specifically like what I think we're racing towards, but I think that there's like a big bang that they want to end the season on, and they had to hop, skip, and jump to get there. I think that's okay to say. So, like, I could be wrong. I don't know how the season's going to end, but I feel like they marked their, we want to end there. It's like saying, it's like making season one of Game of Thrones being like,

okay, we want to end by taking up Ned Stark's head. So what do we need to do in order to get there, right? And Danny's Dragon's hatching, right? So what are we aiming towards? And I feel like I know what they're aiming towards. So I feel like I understand why they're hopping and jumping. It is still somewhat disorienting. We'll see how next week goes.

I'm eager to see these new actors because I'm sure they're all phenomenal. But yeah, I'll miss these kids. Same. I can't wait to meet the new performers. We'll miss this squad. Titanet, you changed our life. Thank you. You really did.

Okay. Boy is like me. That's just incredible. It's really amazing. I hope that he's immediately cast in like 12 new projects. All of these kids were phenomenal. I really, I will miss seeing them really well. I was texting you that I really hope that they just cast Titenin as someone else on

the show like they did with the young actor played Tomon. I love it. And I hope they do. It was a Lannister, Martin Lannister. Or Martin Lannister. Oh, God. All right. It is time for our Rapid Fire episode awards.

It is time to make the eight. the sound of clashing steel really hits in a new way after this episode wig watch show best worst best I'm going to give it to I'm going to give it to the actor who plays Lainor who did not have to sit for his wig fitting that day like congratulations dude

looks great with a shave head John McMillan he was great he was great and I mean we'll talk about this we have questions about whether or not we'll see him again dead in the book could he come back we don't know worst I regret to inform you that I am forced to give this to Damon Targaryen

because someone sent me a close-up of his wig on the beach and the back was sort of like pulled up by the wind like it was flapping in the breeze so whoever laid his wig that day not fully glued it down the sea salt of the sea did its trick on the wig glue show it wasn't the only part of Damon flapping in the breeze that day

you know Tell me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. I don't even have to say phrasing anymore. My God, Beesbury is here for me. Okay, what about you?

My best is Renira's braided funeral hair. Great stuff. Been waiting for this look and really loved it. My worst, I'm sorry for not being original because I pick this every week, but I will really actually not apologize because it remains the right pick every week. And it's Fissaris. And it will be. The five strands still clean to his air.

It's just the little like wisps of like seagrass of like seagrass. Patty. Oh, God. Fit watch. Best, worst. Fit. All right. So best goes to the wedding drip, right?

The dip-died robes. The matching robes loved it. Worst, I hate to do this to them because I love them and I think they're darling. But Baila and Rachel and Rube. Raina had these really dumb-looking cloaks. Meanwhile, Jason Luke are wearing, like, lucks, really nice cloaks. Their dad is captain cloak, you know? I feel like, I feel like Damon really let them down.

One of my favorite memes from last week was after Lena died, and there's that, like, shot of Damon on the roof with the girls, and someone captioned it, like, so do you girls knew how to do your own hair. Anyway, white dad Damon did not dress his girls as well as they should have been dressed for their mother's funeral, I believe. And so I'm just saying, like, maybe stepmom Rainier can get some nice clothes commission for the girls. What do you say? I have the same pick for best. For worst, I'm also going with some child garb here.

But I'm picking, not that there was anything wrong with the outfits, this is a very specific reason. Jason Luke having to just wear their blood-drenched kits into the next day? Like, can someone give them a towel and a fresh outfit? What is happening? I know there's a lot going on, but come on. So that's my back. Number three, they got bigger and bigger. Best bit of Dragon Dumb.

I don't know how to pick something for Vagar, and I assume you will. And so I'll just give a shout out to background performer Sunfire who looked incredible in the sunlight on the hillside. What are you going to say about Vagar? All of it. All Vigar. Period. Incredible.

Done. It was amazing and I will not pick a single moment within it because it was all great. Number four. The doctrine of exceptionally weird sex stuff. I started calling it incest corner and now we can again. I would like to know. if you are, if you're going to pick anything other than

an uncle fucking his niece at his wife's funeral on the beach. Don't see how I could. Under a boat. Great. Moving on. If this show had Netflix subtitles. Okay.

I am shamelessly, I've run out of synonyms, so I am shamelessly circling back to a stranger things stall where, you know, just a classic stranger things word. So I'm going to say, blade slices, eye socket wetly.

Wetly. Yeah. I went with Jusely, which you've used a couple of times. Say I went with eyeball ribs and splits juicely. Yeah, someone send it, please. Hobbits and Dragons to Gmail.com if you have more synonyms for wetly, because I'm constantly looking for them.

Moistly? They use Moistly on Chender things, too. This was more than, yeah. This was more than moistness. Oh, yeah. Jusely. Jusely. Archmaster Ebrose could never.

Best quote. I cannot give it to anything other than, where is duty, where is sacrifice? It's trampled under your pretty foot again. I love it. It's a great one. I have a really hard time picking one for this episode

because there were so many. I'm really torn between Reneira, Reneiras, but now they see you as you are. I feel like that's a quote we'll be saying for 15 years. I did love Otto's line about about Aymond so much.

much. I loved. I also loved Corliss's. What is this brief for the life if not the Pursuit of Legacy? I'm going with the Renaira line because then we each picked something in that exchange, which feels right. Wait, what if I change my answer to you actually do have one thing in common. We both fancy creatures with very long legs. Oh my God. Hey, you maniac. All right. Incredible. Joanna Robinson's most reliable narrator tracker. I'm calling everyone a loser this week because they changed it from the book. No one got it right. Laynor lives. Hashtag queer rights. Laynor lives. I ask your favor, Joe. Who won the episode? So I've been splitting this right actor and character and this is a really fun one this week because I think it's a

complete reverse of last week where I had Alicent as the winner and Emma Darcy is my performer. And this week I'm saying Reneer is the winner and Olivia Cook is my performer. which I think maybe just means I love a loser. Like maybe it's fun to watch someone just like unravel and lose it. But I thought Olivia Cook was incredible. His performances are so good. Where is duty? Where is sacrifice?

But Reneira, I mean, she finally gets to marry her uncle and she didn't even have to kill her gay husband in order to do so. Great stuff. Marys Damiener reaches that pact with Lainor. Vesera sides with her in front of everyone. It's definitely a win for Reneer. I was, of course, sorely tempted to pick Amand because of the Vagar claiming, but it's got.

to be Rinar. It has to be. All right, it is time for our death send-off. Steve, please give us some reverse Dracara screeches. Let's sort of rewind them. Let's walk them back for Lainor, who is not in fact dead. Steve, give us some Trachara screeches for the poor soul who died because everybody needed a corpse to throw into the fire. Dracares. Oh, God. Joe?

Yeah. It's time for faceless man watch. Great stuff. Did I learn my lesson by not picking Dauphrey last time and should I pick that poor man who went in the fire and literally has no face anymore? Probably. But what I'm going to pick instead is Swayndalia, who is just everywhere she shouldn't be. That's a great pick.

I'm going with Laris. I have a difficult time finding another explanation for his bloodlust other than he is looking constantly to offer up new names to the many face god. That's all I got. Wow. Okay. It is time for our book, look ahead. So if you don't want to hear this, thanks for hanging. You're free to go.

Everyone else, stick around. It's time for a dance of dragon dreams. Okay, Joe. Not quite as much here today. is in some past episodes, but there are a few, in part because we've talked about some of the things

that this episode also teases before, but there are a few things we wanted to hit on. Damon and Rainer are officially hitched. In Fire and Blood, nobody's happy about this.

No, I'm really curious. It's not going to go over the way that Renera thinks it is. But like, depending on how big of the time, the time jump is, will we even see that? Like, that's one of the things

I'm so curious about because in Fire and Blood, we get this quote, king court and comments were all outraged by the news. Neither Damon's wife nor Rainier's husband have been dead even half a year. I mean, in the show it might be like a day, who knows?

To wed against who soon was an insult to their memories, his grace declared angrily. Is that going to happen? Is that going to be a wound that lingers? Or would we just be like skipping over that because so much time passes. I feel like we're going to get some comments about it from the puddle of goo that is bizarre. Oh my God.

God. Speaking of goo, let's talk about the future kiddos. Come on. Come on. On the way. I mean, this is my favorite bitch move of Reneira is to name her child.

It's incredible. It's incredible. An all-timer, honestly. It's an all-timer. Agon the Dragon Bean. But he's, I mean, Agon's going to sit on the throne eventually, so, you know.

Agon the third. He's common. because all of the other children have to die for, oh, yeah. Yeah, poor Chris Ryan. Chris Ryan was doing some Googling and we're like, what did you find out, Chris? He was like, all of his sons die. And we were like, not all of them, just most of them. Don't Google things Chris Ryan with a cue.

Okay. So, like, this is such a moment where like, oh, they've finally found each. other. Damon and Reneer, they are meant to be. But, like, those who's read the book, know that this ends with, like, Damon falling in love with nettles. And, like, that's a shadow hanging over all of this is, like, how long are they going to feel, like, soulmates married to each other? And how soon is Damon to be like, what about this hot young track and writer I've just met? That's going to be a tough look for Damon Targaryen. God. You know, it's rough. Only thing I could say in his defense is he was pretty clear from the jump, like, yeah, marriage, sure, but then.

Where is duty? Malory, where is sacrifice? Oh, God, indeed. Anything else you want to tease on the Damon or Naira front? Yeah, like we've talked a couple weeks in a row about Allison's, like, faith and how this, like, her side of this war might be a little, like, Faith of the Seventy. We see in the trailer for next week. She's got a seven-pointed star. A giant seven-pointed star that she's wearing.

And I like how that stands in contrast to this very religious ceremony we see between Damon and Reneer here, this very targy, primal, you know, sort of. Yeah. They're not getting married in the light of the seven. That's a real divide. But it's its own, like, deep faith thing is Damon and the Targness. So, yeah. Absolutely. What about Amon and Luke?

Okay, so we talked in the main stretch about how heartbreaking all of this Luke stuff was, and there was a lot we could say there. The thing that we couldn't say, and this is, I think, increasingly we, I think, are both feeling sure that this is where the season will end with Amon and Vagar killing Luke and his dragon. The Shipbreaker Bay dole set up was heavy in this episode. I mean, that line... You will die. He's screaming in the dark.

just as your father did? Like, really, really rough. Yeah, count on like three episodes until poor little Luke. I mean, it'll be a little older, but not that much older. It's going to die. It's going to be really tough. And even just like hearing Little Luke talk about the idea of everybody else dying and him becoming the Lord of Driftmark was like so heart-wrenching because he's one of the first to go.

Yeah, it's brutal. How about bail on Jace? can get a little handhold here precious yeah so Bela and Rana get betrothed to Jason Luke

as you mentioned Luke taken off the board pretty quickly terrible oh god jace will also be taken off the board trying to

save his brothers but he and Bailer engaged for a while and I think they could do like kind of like And then there's also this idea of like, is Jace going to have a little romance with Sarah Snow? Like, is that going to happen? Question, we don't know.

But there's a possibility for like a sweet little teen. I mean, Baila is so cool. Baila and Jace be really cute. I don't know. I can't wait. I can't wait to see it all. How about Helena? Again, I have to wonder if this like Amund tenderness that you and I are both like feeling,

is that going to set up his reaction to blood and cheese to be like, a massive thing. That's the sense I'm getting that they're setting that up, right, that he has a soft spot for his weird bug sister. Okay.

We also got this, we also got, some people also wrote in thinking that Helena is like, like, like, atypical, codied or something like that.

I don't know. I have questions about that, but we got this email from Travis, which I thought, which I thought, which I thought, thought was a really cool interpretation of, further interpretation of Helena's little line in this episode about flesh dragons and dragons of thread or whatever. So Travis wrote on its surface,

the dream points to the two sides. Green and Black, Hand of the King Otto Hight Tower, helps to shape the spool of green. His daughter, Queen Alison, and her brood of green dragons. Egg on the second, Helena and Emma and well, Princess Renera and her new husband slash old uncle, Damon Targaryen, spools the black. which denotes the color of her dress and the books and potentially the legitimacy of her strong boys with their dark hair. Threads of black, I like that.

The dream also calls back to Vassaris, maker of both green and black, and his hand in the model making of old Valeria, the original weavers of dragons. Additionally, the dream foreshadows the dragon seeds to come and the various bastard claimants who pop up in and around King's Landing

during the dance, all who have been woven from Targaryen flesh. If we jump to the main series, the dragons of flesh and dragons of thread called to mind both Danny and her three living, breathing dragons, coming into future conflict with the mummer's dragon, young griff, who was a potential line

of thread from a different black dragon, young griff. Still, outreged that young griff was not on the show. Fagon! Fagon! Fag on! Finally, as a scene closes with Helena trapping the spider in the shell, the image cuts to Laris Strong,

of Veris and Littlefinger and Tyrion and Kybern-like figure who weaves his own loom of death and destruction. I don't think there's ever too much you can read into a Helena line at this point. So I welcome all of these emails. All right. What do you want to say about Aymn and Damon? Just that like even though it's only people stare at each other across the room and for certain characters in this episode, it was difficult given the magnitude of what happens

here to not like think into the distant future. and the showdown to come, like those final moments with Amon and Vagar and Damon and Karexis in the battle above the gods' eye. And I think in part just because, you know, Damon's final act

of jumping from his dragon onto Vagar to drive Dark Sister through Amon's eye socket has always been like so iconic. But, you know, when you think of the consequence of, of the Vagar claiming, like,

Damon and Amand and the battle above God's eye is going to be like one of the signature moments of the entire series. So it's just impossible

about to think about it. We got this email from Angel that I'm not going to read in full interesting theory about sorry, it might be on hell by the way, but like an interesting theory about Damon being

Damon himself being a dreamer. I'm really interested to see what Damon knows and when he knows it about the prophecy. We still don't have that answer. We haven't gotten that trailer line yet. Right. Yeah.

Dreams didn't. Dreams didn't, yeah. Kings, Dragons did. Dragons did. But I love this theory in this email. It says, did Damon learn his unbuckled, speaking of Damon versus Amund. Did Damon learn his unbuckled saddle to diving dragon jump maneuver from an epic dragon lord account, speaking of the, like, books he was reading in Pentos?

Oh, my God. I love this. Doesn't seem like something they teach at Dragon Pit University. Just love that line. Wow. We need to make Dragon Pit University merch or something. Yeah. It's amazing.

Wow. I love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. I don't know. Into it.

Yes. Totally. Okay. Let's talk about Uncle Vaman and his shitty eulogy. So like next week's episode, when I, when the episode titles are released, I was trying to figure out what's going to happen in each episode. Next week's episode is called Lord of the Tides. So I always had that episode marked as Corleus gets really sick, or as we hear in the trailer,

this is like an injury from the step zone. But Quo is out of commission. And the question is, who stands to inherit Drift Mark if Corlees is out of commission? There was so much, I would dare I say, ham-fisted telegraphing towards that episode in this episode with Corley's a conversation with, yeah, Corley's conversation with Luke, Raines' his conversation with Corleys, and Veyman's, like, eulogy, because Vaman is the instigator, but in this version, he'll have Raine's on his side. Vainan is the instigator of these boys who are clearly not Lainor's children should not

inherit Drift Mark. And then there's like a couple, like, when Corleys comes into the Hall of Nine to find the burned corpse in the fireplace, he says, my fucking all. Like, there's just like a couple like Corleys as the Lord of the Banner sort of moments in this episode. Things don't go well for payment. No. I mean, if you consider getting beheaded and then fed to Cyrox not going well, then yeah, they don't go well. Some of the roughest spoilers yet for Steve on today's book reader section. Viceris says this episode, let it be...

It's going to follow through on cutting out some of those tongues. Let it be known. Anyone whose tongue dares to question the birth of Princess Reneer's son should have it removed. So Vezeris might follow through with something for once in his fucking life is the point. Next week. But just a lot of like heavy on the gas for next week's episode this week's episode. There's that shot in the teaser for next week. week of Vamond walking surrounded by high towers.

Right. So the high towers are going to back Vainment in order to, fuck, fucking high towers. All right. I'm trying. All right. The big thing, though, the one you want to talk about is C-Smoke. So what do you want to say about C-Smoke? So, you know, we alluded to this question of like, okay, does C-Smoke just remain riderless forever if his writer is still alive? And part of the reason that we're wondering that one is just the lore. But C-smoke is claimed in this story by Adam of Hull, A.D-D-A-M. We were pleased to let Chris of the Q know. Chris text says, he's like, is there really someone named Adam of Hull with two D's? I loved it. I loved it. So competing accounts in the text

for who, shockingly competing accounts of the text for who Adams' father is. Adam's mother says it's Lenore. Some others might have, you believe it would be corliss, but Adam claims Seasmoke, and it's part of this larger sewing of the seeds that Jace undertakes because they need as many riders as possible. So this idea of the Targaryans, the Targaryen bastards who have that Targaryian blood and might be able to claim a dragon becomes like a really valuable thing in the story. Seas Smoke having been introduced as my feeling on this is if Seaswoke will not be written, then don't just don't introduce Seaswoke into the story. It would just be strange.

So I feel like C-Swoke has to come into play. But then how will they explain this? Or nightmare scenario, will they not? That would be awful. Okay. So there's a bunch of different theories about what might happen here. But one that we got a lot of emails about, and I just want to shout out listener Sam, who was the first to like message me on Sunday night about this theory is, Lane or actually going to be Adam of Hall.

And this is like similar to the way in which they use Gendry in Game of Thrones where they're just like, let's just swap them in for another character, right? Like why spend our money on all these other characters? A couple issues with that sort of like swapping Lainor in. Adam of Hall as a brother named Alan. Like I like it on the one hand because it was always hard to buy that like A, Laneor, I mean, this has been a tough week for wife guys, but like it was always hard for me to by that Corleys was the father of this bastard since he's such a wife guy.

And it didn't make sense for Laynor to be the father of Adam of Hull either because Lainor does not like the ladies. Though he does have that line in an earlier episode to Rinearway says he's tried, right? But I don't know. I kind of like this idea. And then like Adam of Hull, this whole thing is like his loyalty, but it doesn't make a kind of sense because like Rehnir is doubting him and like that's the part right where I'm like yeah that the whole like turn cloak thing couple with because there's got there's a brother name

Alan yeah there's the initial age thing he's supposed to be 15 when he claims C-smoke which doesn't work obviously but also I mean change that that they change ages all the time but yeah it's the eventual like incorporation into the succession like future Lord of the Tides plot and then the turn cloak aspect of the dance but maybe Reneer a suspect that he suspects him because she worries that he resents her or something like that. But also, who is not going to recognize Lainor? He just looks like Lainor. And like allow, I guess everyone would, maybe it would be another situation where everyone's

in Gahoots and he's like assuming a different persona. But then why come back? If he left this life, like, why come back and then not be himself and claim him? I guess he could come back as Lainor in the story at some point. And we're done with Adam of Hull. That could happen. I don't know. This is a tricky one. Adam's a cool character who dies with the word loyal written on his tomb.

So, like, this idea that he sacrifices everything out of loyalty could be a cool thing really in order to do. There's just going to be like several hoops they'll have to jump through in order to make that work. I don't hate the theory. I just have questions about it. And I hope he just stays away and lives forever, actually, instead. Stay out of the dance, my gosh. Okay, Jeanne. We did it. We did it.

Swift, three hours. I had a great time. Me too, always. Oh, friends, you know, this is the point where we turn to Steve and we say, what is this brief mortal pod, if not the pursuit of legacy? God's just being good. Oh, God. That is a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you, as always, to our dragon lords, the incomparable Steve Allman. for producing this episode, Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode, and Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We will see you again on Friday for our Rings of Power, Episode 7 Deep dive, and then again on Sunday night, immediately after Hot D, episode 8 for Talk to Thrones.

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