'House of the Dragon' Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
00:01I'm Yossi Sallick and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies.We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more.Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify.For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter.Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.
00:54Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's diseaseand adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis,serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.Explore what's possible.Ask your doctor about Tramphia today.Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Trimfairadio.com.
01:28The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the five.with Fandul PREDICT.PREDICT the spread, total points, and even the game winner.Sign up and get a $25 bonus.Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt.Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool.
01:53Restrictions applies.See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms.And welcome to Talk the Thrones.My name is Chris Ryan.and I am an editor at the ringer.com.Joining me, as always, is Ringer, senior staff writer Joanna Robinson,and a woman who has never lost an eye over dragon omership,although the night is young.
02:27Yes.It's Mallory Rubin.What's up?Chris, so many dragons to talk to you about.There's a lot of dragons, and they were all so distinct from one another.That is the thing.And the thing is, is if you're going to shoot dragons,I like shooting them at dusk, you know, because I think day for night is the ideal time.
02:45It's just like, who needs distinction between, like, scales and colors or whatever?Let's just go with it.I got it.We are talking about the seventh episode of the first season of House of the Dragon.The episode was called Driftmark, although I think one wedding at a funeral is a more appropriate title.It was directed by your boy Miguel Sapachnik.And it featured a aforementioned wedding and aforementioned funeral.A knife fight, some incest.
03:10Joanna, what will you remember from this episode?It has to be.The princess and the queen and only one knife between their faces.That moment was incredible.And what was incredible about it is that I've seen it one million times in the trailers.And it was still extremely potent for me.So, you know, with apologies to Vagar and sex on the beach, it's the knife fight for sure.Don't worry, I got you covered on the Sex on the Beach front and the Vagar front.
03:39Because in addition to your pick, those were my favorite parts of the episode.This one was full in general of a lot of.lot of shots and lines and moments that we had seen teased in the trailer. So it was reallythrilling to see that come fully to life. Mal, I had this vision of you, like you're in SEALTeam 6 with night vision on watching that sex scene, like just like just so you could get all the likethe contrast down. Did I go frame by frame? Did I sit in a completely dark room and watch this inthe dead of night to ensure max optimal viewing conditions? Who's to say? Well, look, you're you'rededicated to reporting. You make sure you get
04:17the story. She's an artisan.This is an active scholarship.Yeah.Shall I recap this episode?Oh, Chris.Please. Please.Welcome to the worst funeralof all time.
04:31It's got drinking, serptitious looks,a new old hand of the king,some early bedtimes, and nota ton of reverence for the moment.It's Lane is Memorialand Damon doesn't seemtoo sad. Agon gets lit.Lainor nearly pulls a dude from Dunkirk,
04:47the walking into the ocean part.And Reneer is awkwardly trying and failingat making small talk with everyone.Vesaris tries to get Damon to come back to King's Landing,but Damon is really, really, really committed to this pentose bit,which maybe means no state taxes, I don't know.So Vesaris just goes to sleep.We learn Otto is back at his side,
05:06and Laris is the new lord of Harenhall,and Kristen is still a type A dickhead.There is a discussion between Reneas and Corlabout the merits of Pento's and Driftmark's medical servicesand whether or not Lana could have been savedif she had been home.There's some unresolved issues about whether Corlisis transferring his ambition to his wife.
05:26They have a disagreement about which childrenLanas or Reneiras should inherit Driftmark.The long night gives away to some more intense chatsas we find Rennira and Damon reunitingafter more than 10 years.I think this is like the decade since they've seen each other, right?Seems like it as far as we know.Their little sandy walk might be my favorite.
05:44scene of the show so far. They kiss. They do it on the beach. Incess, Game of Thrones. Then somedragon stuff happens that I will need to explain to me. Back at the Drift Mark Hotel, there is a dust upbetween Reneera and Allison's kids over who fathered Reneer's kids. Amon talks a lot of shit and bragsabout leasing a dragon, then loses an eye. Everyone is in a tizzy. Most of all, Allison,who demands some Homerabi justice. She grabs a knife and goes after Reneer cutting her arm,but exposing herself.Vesiris rules that the night has gone on long enoughand everyone goes back to their chambers
06:19to get sewn up and stewing their own emotions.Despite Lainor's recommitment to his familial duties,Reneira decides that she is best matched to her uncle, Damon,and she quickly talks him into, quote-unquote,murdering her husband.Not that that's a direct quote.I'm just putting air quotes around that,which he subcontracts to said husband's lover
06:40who stages a rather implausible sword fight.A body believed to be Lenore's is found in the fireplace,understandably upsetting Renis and Corlis.Reneira gets married to Damon, but wait,who is that with the fresh haircut taking a kayak for two out of Driftmark?It's Lainor and Carl, those crazy kids will wonders never cease.What an episode.Great work, Chris.
07:04And Joe, I wanted to start here.Yeah.Let's start with this knife fight between Alice and Rist.Manira, 10 years in the making, if not more.Here's my read on this, and you tell me,tell me where I'm at, where I'm at with this.Yeah.I think that Allison sees her life as like this profound sacrifice for the sake of the
07:24realm, which is ironic, I guess, because in some ways,Reneira knows that her life is also a sacrifice for the sake of the realm,but for different reasons because of the secret the Vassaris has given her.But Allison is kind of like, I have given away my individuality to the extent,that she understood it at the timeto become a queen and a mother and a wife.And this was because her father put her in the positionto do that in somewhat, you know, creepy ways
07:50and that Vesaris selected her in somewhat creepy waysand that Westeros needed a queen after Emma died.And in Allison's view, Reneira has basically led a lifeof following her fancy from Damon to Kristento Lainor to Harwin to Damon againand her children are illegitimateand pose like a mortal threat to her own children.So in that sense, I can kind of get where the switchblade came out.
08:15Yeah.No, I think that's a perfect read, I think.And her speech that she gives there, because we had heard that line,Where's Duty, Where a Sacrifice so many times in the trailer.But what she says before that, what have I done, but what was expected of me forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law,while you flout all and do what you please.I think that's what she said.I didn't have close captionings.
08:37Where is Sacrifice?Where's Duty?it's trampled under your pretty feet again.And I think we're going to talk about that knife in a second,but I think her saying, where is duty?And Reneer can see her duty out of the corner of her eyein the shape of that knife, like reflected in the fireplace.There's just this wide gulf of a secret between these women.
08:58Allison cannot know what has been weighing on Reneer.We hear her unburdened herself to Damon a bit when she talks about,ever since she was made the air, the pressure that she has felt.all of that.But Allison doesn't see that.Allison can't know the full breath of it.Damon doesn't even know the full breath of it.As far as we know, he doesn't know about the prophecy.
09:17And so I was rewatching interviews that Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook gave before the series started.And something they kept talking about was that these two women who loved each otherdesperately wanted to reconnect, but neither of them would be the first one to ever rebuild that bridge.And so I was trying to read that, even though I kind of felt like Rainer did last week,but I was trying to read that out of that knife confrontation of like these women desperately want to connect,but there's so much in the way and there's so much space between them at this point that it feels almost possible.And there's all the men in the room also who, as you pointed out, Chris, have been responsible for driving this wedge between them.So this, Mal, I remember when we used to do Talk the Thrones about the original series.
10:06and sometimes I would butt my head up against occasionallywhat was on screen versus what was obviously in a text of some kind.And I think if I had an issue over the last couple of episodes,even though I've enjoyed myself and especially enjoyed Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook,it's like there's this 10-year time gap that we didn't get to see any of.And that Allison's anger at Reneera is like,I think I intellectually understand it,but emotionally don't get it from watching the show sometimes, right?
10:39Like, I think...And then this episode was the one where I was like,oh, yeah, people have been telling her for probably a decadethat one day Reneer is going to kill her and her children.To solidify her.Her dad definitely has been telling her that, yeah.So that...And she's now telling her own kids that, yeah.
10:53Yes, and she's now, like...I mean, she's paranoid.She might be right.She might be paranoid.But, like, what did you make of that fight?And what did you make of their conflict in general in this episode?Ooh.so such an incredibly rich and amazingly interesting scene.
11:12Every facial expression from every person in the room tells us something.I think that what Joe said is exactly right and crucial.You know, Allison might as well be a member of House Tully here,spousing family duty honor as these sacred principles.And I think that the, while you flouted all to do as you please line,is maybe as central and crucial of a thingas we've heard from Allisonacross any of the seven episodes
11:41because there is this,and Renera throws this idea of this cloak of righteousnessback in Allison's face,which I think was equally important, right?Now they see you.Now they see you as you are.This is a moment of disillusion.Like, this is it.
11:59Even at the beginning of this hour of TV,when Reneer and Damon are discussing what happened with the Strongs,Reneer is saying,I do not believe Alicent is capable of murder.Later that day, Alicin demands a child's eye.As retribution, it was impossible not to think back to one of our earliest, most intense Game of Thrones experiences,the showdown at the end of the Crossroads with Circe and King Robert,and Ned and Joffrey and Aria and Sanza and Nimeria and lady,
12:36when Circe said, and what of the dire wolf,what of the beasts that savaged your son?And then later we have another wolf,like this thirst for justice and vengeance at all costs.But the thing that we needed from Allison herewas that humanity, that vulnerability.So when she says this thing to Renira abouthow Renera gets to do whatever she want,
12:54and Allison is on the one hand espousing dutyas this sacred, precious thing,It is at the heart of her crusade and her quest, maintaining it, nurturing it, bringing other people inside of her version of it.But it is also something that she deeply resents that she has had to live her life inside of it.And so if you look at the conversation later, after the knife fight, between Allison and Otto, there's this incredibly strange mix of emotions and competing instincts where on the one hand, he's almost looking at her for the first time as a true partner.Yeah.But he's also – right, a player in the game.But he's also still using her as a pawn.
13:37Now go to him.And she has been caught inside of this.And this, again, is why we needed those first five episodes to understand what Alison means when she's saying sacrifice.Because otherwise, all there is is villainy.You have to have that heart.I think, Chris, like, when you're saying, like, you're missing, maybe feeling like you're missing an evolution of a character over those 10 years, I can sympathize with that.I do think every time we saw Allison bouncing an enormous child on her hip, like, you just saw the tension being stretched in her.until it snapped, you know,
14:13where it's just sort of like,she just felt like buried under her literal husbandthat scene that we all recoiled from, you know,like it's just been piling on top of her,on top of her, on top of her,until this break here.Yeah, I think that this is in some ways,like, this show asks different things of the viewers
14:34than Game of Thrones did.Like, I find myself in my headtrying to, like, kind of orient myself.towards like, who am I rooting for in this, in this,in this, like, argument between Allison and Reneiraand I, I don't, I guess I like Reneer more just because, like,she has more fun shit happening. And Allison's more like,I'm stuck in here with Laris, Kristen, and my dad.
14:57Like, it's like, I enjoy Reneer's sort of storyline more.But to me, Reneira was like,you married my dad. That was pretty weird.I'm going to take a chill from our friendship for a while.then Allison has this idea thatReneera who's beenthey both had things happen to themthat they didn't quite expect.
15:16Reneer didn't expect to be namedthe heir to the throneand Allison didn't expect to be selectedto be Viseras's new wife.And then I guess I keep saying to myselflike what did Reneer do to herthat's so bad?You know, like aside from living her life
15:31and doing the best she canunder the circumstanceswith a husband who doesn't wantto like go to bed with herand her heart with other people.But I don't know.It's just there's a little bit of like,I'm trying to like find my way here.
15:46I think the aspect of like jealousy and resentmentis in the mix.Just sort of like exactly what Mal was sayingwhile you fly out all and do what you please,trampled under your pretty feet.Like you just get to do whatever you want.And it is burning me up insidethat I have to fuck your decaying dad constantly instead.
16:03You know?And so I think,and I say that,I say jealousy with a lot of empathy for Alice.Because, like, you know, I think we've all experienced that where you're just like, you feel such resentment towards someone and you, you almost know it's irrational.But you're like, but I can't, I can't not feel this.Yeah.And I think there's also this element with Alicent in this, in this episode of particular of like, well, what was that for then?
16:27Right.Why did I do everything that was expected of me?Why did I have to prioritize duty and my family and this quest above all if it was going to cause?me, if it was going to cost me things I hold sacred and not gain me what it was supposed to.Her children are not, Egon is not currently the air. One, we hear her express to. I wish you was,though. I know. I love that guy. Love it. Showing for me. I got we can do the whole pot on that.We hear her express, if we go back a week to that, that really great small counsel sequence again,remember that? Of course, when Lionel said, yeah, I'll look into what we're here is asking me to
17:06look into. And there's a moment where Alicent voices in this episode, like,the Saris will always choose her, will always side with her. So if you're not even gaining thatloyalty, and then that gets back to what Alicent voiced in another moment of real vulnerabilityand humanity to Laris at the end of last episode that's set into course numerous horrificevents that are then bearing out across this episode. Like, is there no one who will choose me?Now, of course, that is not an accurate reflection of her circumstances, as we talked about last week.There is an element of irrationality at play there, but there is also this through line of lonelinessand feeling this real need to foster meaningful relationships that are eluding her, are eluding
17:49everybody.That's top of mind for everyone across this episode.And so what do you, what do you on earth in your pursuit of that?And, like, we got the payoff right away when, in this episode, for what Allison had said last weekto Laris about Otto. Like, he'd be partial to me, right? And even Otto has a moment during thedagger scene. He's like, put the knife down. Put it down. But then he goes to her later. And where is hein that whole scene, standing next to the Driftwood throne, position right in arm's reach of a symbolof power, as always, while Vassaris is on his cane in front of it, limping around yelling at people
18:26who won't listen to him. But Otto has eyes only for Damon in that scene, which I thought was hilarious.I was going to, I mean, I thought that that scene was staged really expertly because it was almost a piece of theater where these two women have been driven to these almost histrionic extremes, right?Like, they've been pushed to this point of violence.And all these men are kind of smirking, standing around looking at them and be like, well, I'm enjoying the show.Nothing really is going to happen here at any given moment we're going to step in and stop it or like, we're going to let this play out to whatever except.we want. And the, even the choreography of Kristen start, like, first of all, Kristen,definitely egging it on a little bit. And Kristen stepping in and then Damon stepping in and then,you know, everybody kind of like cutting each other off at various points and who's interested
19:19in what. And then, of course, how we end it with Renira and Damon with Corliss and Renice on oneside and then the High Tower kind of Kristen Viseras side. I just thought it was like, you know,Miguel Sopachnik is obviously known for these huge set pieces, and we think of Battle of the Bastards, but this was this was a different kind of piece of staging.I also love the way the boys were staged.Like the, like, Reneira's boys kept like sort of like peaking out from behind her skirts, essentially, whereas like Amon's facing the other direction in a chair, like sometimes looking over his shoulder, but often just making facial expressions that no one could see.Right.I love that we found out what Sir Kristen Cole's limit was, which was taking an eye out of a child.so it's nice to know he has limits.
20:02When even Kristen's not in on your plan on Allison,he has gone too far.But I do love the moment when Damon just stepped inand easily held him back.Allison was going like Michael Madsen and Reservoir Dogsand they're like, oh, this is...Oh, God. I love it.This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.
20:29Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business.So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more.Restrictions apply.Services not available in all areas.
20:55This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping.Then you'd want a cargo line.or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer.
21:23Visit weathertech.com today.This podcast is brought to you by Carvana.Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list.Not one more.With Carvana, it is.Just go to Carvana.com.Enter your license plate or Vin and get a real offer down to the penny.No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust.
21:42Like your offer?Accept it.Schedule pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand.Your car, your timeline, your terms.Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today.Carvana.Pickup fees may apply.Amen has come up.
21:56Amon goes through somewhat of a transformation in this episode, both facially,but in terms of pet ownership.Now, this great sex scene between uncle and niece is happening on the beach.We all feel great about our choices that we're watching this on Sunday night.I do.I thought for a second, I was like, oh, Amon's going to spot them, and this is going to be controversial.It turns out that's not controversial.It's a tender love scene.
22:24You just got to put some face makeup on, and it gets consecrated.But the big deal is that Amon finds a dragon, which he's had some issues.with in the past of like figuring outwhich dragon is his or whether or not he's gotthe special sauceand heessentially takes Vagarwho was what bequeathed to
22:46Lena's daughternot officiallyI mean yes he takes Vagarbut the second part aboutbequeath to Ranais not accurate Rana would have to claimVagar which is whatI guess in response
23:01yeah explain the significance of thisme as if I want to say I want I think I'm better than third grader but like if I was if I was like a highschool kid who really liked sports and didn't really read that much I mean dragon routing's asport so I got you come on in come on into this ring of fire there's a lot here there's a lothere in terms of the significance I think we can actually start at the end and then kind of zip backauto to his credit sums it up as well as anyone when he saysto Allison, on the heels, remember of Allison saying last week to Amund, your obsession with thosebeasts goes beyond understanding. And we were like, boy, there's a missing level of awareness here
23:47of how significant these dragons are for House Targary. Otto says here, what that rogue Amand hasdone in winning Vagar to our side, the boy was right. It's worth a thousand times the price he paid.we cannotoverstate the magnitude of thissincerely.Now there's a side.Now we're talking sides.Like Viserius is like,
24:09we're a family, we're a family,we're not a family, we have sides.Yeah, and Otto's like,we've never been.It's always been two sides, yeah.And, you know, elsewhere in the episode,we hear Runeira say to Damon,the Greens to speak the team name
24:24of the opponent aloudin Valerian in that moment.So yes, the sides are crystallizingbefore our eyes in this episode.In terms of that idea, though,of how crucial it is,not only to have dragons,to have that power for your side,
24:40Vagar in particular,we talked about this a bit last week.Vagar is the oldest dragoncurrently alive in the story,the biggest dragon.I loved the way that Amon's claiming of Vagarwas filmed and framed.Looks like the camera's on top of a skyscraper
24:57looking down at him.When he climbs the ropes,he may as well be scaling a building, like the heft and magnitude of this magical creature was so apparent.It was just incredible.And, you know, we're coming off the heels of last episode where the fact that Amund doesn't have a dragon, you're the only one of us without a dragon.Aagon, his brother says, is this source of loneliness and isolation.So we feel like the heft and the stakes of this pursuit.There are a lot of similarities with the way this plays out in fire and blood here, but also a lot of different.
25:29Something that Joe mentioned in our book reader portion of House of our last week anticipating this looking ahead was how, because we had seen in the teaser, that Lena and Damon's kids, Bela and Raina are the ones who see this. And then having that personal connection to this was the girls there because they aren't there in the book. It's just the boys fighting. So to bring Lena's daughters into it and to have Raina say like I wanted, I was going to claim the dragon. Like it's my mom's dragon.And for Amon to just not give a single shit at the funeral for her mom is a whole extra level of NASA.Just very messy and intense all around.I was thinking a lot during this flight, you know, we hear Amund issue commands in Valerian and put that training that we've gotten to glimps of to use in real time.The initial trepidation, the rebuke from Vagar, but then his insistence, his insistence, his converseance, his control.conviction to try no matter what. And there's this great line in fire and blood. Later, he would saythat he was so afraid of being caught that he forgot to be frightened of being burned to death andeaten. Call it boldness. Call it madness. Call it fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons.
26:45Who can know the mind of such a beast? And when we see the shaking initially and he can barelyhold on and then that pure vertical ascent and descent, like it's a test. Can he hold? Can hehold on, is he worthy of claiming Fagars' mount?I found myself thinking back to season 8 of Game of Thrones and getting to see John RideRegal and how it was thrilling, but it felt like it was missing a degree of magnitude,like that everybody who was bearing witness to that should have understood the unparalleledsignificance of that moment.And we got that here.
27:22Like I had been so looking forward to seeing this play out on screen and you felt the heft ofit, the consequence of it.and you also felt the magic of it.And I know I've been talking about this a lot over the last few weeks,but this is like, I think this is important.This is a fantasy story.And I love the politicking and the palace intrigue as much as anyone, genuinely.We can't lose sight of the magic at the heart of the story.
27:46And I loved seeing that captured here.Let me ask Chris.Chris, you were talking about sides.What are the sides as you see it right now?Pretty much how they broke down after that knife fight.Okay.on those two sides of the room.I would say that it's like Allison, Otto, Kristen,
28:04Allison's children who are now in Air Force.And then on the other side,I would say definitely Damon and Reneira.And I wonder whether Corliss and Reneas are kind of like in,kind of in between, right?Like, Corliss has obviously made entreaties to Damon in the past,but has also been loyal to Vassaris in the past.I've obviously,
28:26Rinez is like,the entire pursuit of this poweris what has destroyed my familyand killed my children.So if you think that this is fun for me,you're wrong.I definitely felt like thatthat was sort of what was going on.
28:39Joe, I wanted to ask you,I thought,and now very articulatelyand wonderfully explained the dragon part about it.This is a very cool episodeas far as that performanceby the kid just playing Aymand.I'm sorry,
28:50I don't have it in front of me,but like him staring into the fire pitbriefly and like almost showingempathy for the other kids around.So close.And then the transformation that he goes through with the like shot to that makeup departmentbecause immediately you're like, he's like lost all innocence.And he is like, this was a fair trade.
29:14Yes.He's called Aymn One Eye in the book from now on.Yeah, I thought that kid was incredible.I think all the kids are really good.But I think the Ty Tenon and Leo Acton are just above and beyond.And when you think about all those moments, those, like, okay, first of all, this wake for Lenalooks like every pre-wedding cocktail hour I've ever been to in my life.Like, it's always on a-hanging in a courtyard.
29:43Always on a terrace.There's weird little groups of people who don't know each other.One guy standing in the ocean for some reason.Yeah, you know.He's already hammered.The party's already started down there.And you're just sort of like, it's awkward.He's just tanked, you know?
30:00Is he going to make it through the ceremony?Who knows?I hate the cocktail hour.I think that's the most awkward part of a wedding.But anyway, the tension between so many of these people,because I think you draw the line pretty correctly,but one dynamic that I thought was super interesting in this episodewas between Renice and Renera,
30:19where Renice is just icing Reneera and icing Jace out.You know, she goes over and she comfort.first the girls and she is like nothing for Jason that moment.And we've been wondering like how would Corlees react to these boys?And Corleys is like, oh, I see no problem.There's still going to be like a grandson who's technically mine on the throne.No problem then.Luke you're going to inherit Driftmark, no problem.
30:46You know, and Mallory, I hope you really enjoyed Luke's.Luke's, I don't want it.I hope that was just for you.Just channeling John Snow in full.I don't want it.I was waiting for Luke to say he looked into the Night King's eyes.But that I see between Rheny's and Rhenyra is so interesting,and I think it complicates that clear line that you were talking about, Chris.
31:08And I think that's really smart.But if you do Dragon Math on both sides of those lines,it did really matter that Vagar got added to Allison's side of the room.Because before that they just had like Sunfire, which is Agon's dragon.And Helena, I don't know if she's a dragon writer.I can't really tell.We can confirm this now.So I checked, because there are three dragons flying over the ship when Vagar joins at the end.
31:35And I'm like, it can only be Dreamfire also.It looks blue, but like, who else could it even be?And then I checked on the HBO Dragon Guide, you click into Dreamfire.It just says it right there.Okay, great.I'm like, okay, it'll be great if they said it on the show.Okay, but Helena has a dragon, but does she seem really like she's interested in Dragon?No, she cares about.
31:50To her books.She cares about her bugs.bugs. So like Allison's side was really lacking, whereas like Syrax and Karaxies and all thoseothers are on the other side of the room. So getting Beghar is just like going somewhere towardstipping the dragon scales for them. Remind me who between Agon and Aman was like, which one of themwas like, maybe I'll marry my sister and keep the bloodline pure? Was that Agon?It's Agon. Agon, well, Agan was like chafing against it. He's like, I guess this happened offscreen that Agan and Helena are betrothed. And Agan's like, uh,
32:23she's a weird bug girl.I do not want to marry her.I want to fuck like any other serving girl.We both like really long legs.And she's looking at a spider and he's like leering.Incredible delivery.But I loved it.I loved Amon's reaction where Amon's like, what Amon says is what Renier then does with Damon
32:43where he was like, it will shore up our claim, keep the bloodline strong.You know, and Agon like does his, you know, and Amon's just like, oh,A-Gon, you know, so the fact that he's like, my brother sucks, my sister's weird, maybe I'll go bond with my nephews.Nope, that's not working out for me either.So, um, Dragon Friend it is, you know, is sort of his journey through this episode, I think.It was fascinating to see Aman's response to Aigon there because, like, I think, Joe, one of the things we've had a lot of fun tracking is, who seems to take being a Targaryen seriously?Who seems to take that tied old Valeria seriously?That is obviously very central to everything we'll talk about with Damon and Renera.
33:23in a few minutes, but you really felt that from Amund across this episode.The other thing I just quickly wanted to say about Helena,because this was something we couldn't say last week,but now we can because we've seen what happened with Amid.We've seen him lose the eye.It seems that they are establishing Helena on the show as a dreamer,as a child who is just spouting prophecy casually in the courtyardwhile playing with spiders.
33:45Last week, when Allison said to Amon,you will have a dragon one day.I know it. Helena said he'll have to close an eye.Now, this was something we talked about in our bookreader section.Yeah, the book readers are like losing their shit.She must be a dreamer.And then she has this thing here.And again, we don't have subtitles on the screener.
34:02So I don't know if I got this exactly right.But I think she's saying hand turns looms, spool of greens, spool of black, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of threat.So that's interesting.And more broadly, given Viseras's obsession with dragon dreams, I'm really hoping we get to see them interact.talk about this and what he thinks of having a child who is a dreamer. I really hope thatbecomes part of the story. Can I ask? I want to do a quick thing about the Vesaris being obsessedwith dragon dreams, but also knowing about this, basically this prophecy about the future ofthis world and why Reneer needs to know this and what Reneer needs to do.
34:42The significance of Allison using that dagger, because I assume that's the same dagger, right?Oh, yeah.I guess I'm curious whether or not there is an implication that Rineer is.almost trolling Allisonbecause she's like,now they see youwho you really are.To some extent,
34:59Allison is trying to shore up her family,but Reneira,is Reneer starting to actknowing what the possible futureof the realm isand knowing that the long wintercould come and knowing that if it does,she's supposed to be
35:12the person who defendsthe world against this evil?Or is it still like pretty,we're still talking aboutlike family politicsand like,like family security.Does that make sense what I'm asking?
35:25Well, I think you can't look at Vassaris,who is like essentially dropping body parts by the minuteand like confusing his alive wife for his dead wife and stuff like thatand not feel as Reneera that like my time's almost here.Like it's coming soon that this is all going to be on me.And like as each Targaryan monarch goes through learning about this dream,this prophecy, you know, they'll, an heir will learn about it and say, well, maybe it's my dad.Oh, no, shit, it's me.
35:59Like, that's got to be the sort of journey that you go through learning about this prophecy.And so Reneira, it has to be hanging on Reneer.And so what I think is really wild, the moment where she's talking to Damon and the show,as Mallory said, like, is trying to fool us for five minutes into thinking that Reneiracould kill Lainor, who seems very nice.I had this moment where I was like, because it's unclear who's behind Lainor's death in the book.And I had this moment where I was like, oh, God, they're going for.Like, Reneura is going ham.
36:31Like, yeah, she's going hard.And now it's going to be Alicent who's tough and Reneira who's tough.And that's going to be like the conflict here.And then they pulled all the way back from that.We're not even Damon, Damon who kills like a, you know, a Butler, a Valerian Butler.Like, not even Damon is the full villain behind Lainor's death,which is a tough moment in the book.And they decided to make this big change for the show where Lainor gets to live for now.
37:01And that, you know, that actor doesn't have to put a wig on his head anymore.That must be nice.And, like, that's a real interesting move because it means we are dealing with right nowthe more heroic Reneira team and the more villainous.Allison team.And I don't know if the show felt like they needed to give us people who are easier to root for than the book does.Or I don't know.What do you think about that?
37:29Yeah.I mean, Mal, you tell me, I have to admit, the first time I watched it through, I was like, oh, wow, Lainor, like, we're near a killer husband.Like, I kind of read it more like that.And then obviously, I thought that Lainor escaped with Carl, like, that he couldn't go through with it.and that Carl was like,like, they tried to pay me off to murder you.Let's abscond to the stepstones.Right?
37:55I, yeah, no, I definitely,I definitely read it as everyone is in cahoots.And because we get, we get that,we get that earlier.There's so many,so many scenes of this episodethat I think will be very rewarding for rewatching,not only after completing the episode,
38:14but further down the road.You know, we, with,with,With Lainor, like the twist, seeing him alive is so shocking for numerous reasons.And I have a couple questions about it, what it means that he's paired with a dragon, sea smoke.I'm really curious to know what it means for the relationship between Corliss and Renéis and Renera.Because part of what Rennira and Damon are actively cultivating as we hear is this idea that the realm will whisper that I was somehow responsible is something Reneira says.and Damon replies, yet we must burn.
38:48We will know the truth of it.And Reneira says they will fear what else we might be capable of.In general, I understand the strategy.What about this house that you definitely need on your side?If they think this about you, that's a problem.Now you have the grandchildren who are in the mix as a tie still and that's something.But I'm glad, Joe, that you cited that real coldness at the cheeseboard between Rainies and Rennira.because it does feel really central.
39:17And like you hear Corliss and Renice arguing about legacyand this idea of legacy throughout this episodeand when ambition is masqueradingas something more pure.And I, you know, that Luke Corliss scene we mentioned earlier,like I thought that was devastating.Because Luke says like if this happens,it means if I'm the Lord of TripTong,
39:40it means everyone's dead.And it really, there were a few moments like thatin this episode,but that one in particular really crystallizes,like what we talked about last week,that these adults,sometimes they're seeking something that is like born on the wings,not only have a dragon, but good intention,
39:56but still, like, they are turning these childreninto their pawns and all of this hate is festering.And so with Renira and Lainor,like, I had, I think, a similar bit of oscillation watching thatbecause there was a part of me that was like,when before you realized the twistand realize he's still alive.That was like, wow, this is a tough one.
40:19Like killing Lainor, who we all really like,would be a really, really difficult thing to acceptthat Reneiro would be capable of doing.But I think what Joe said is really important.Like, the story in so many ways is propped upon this idea of moral gray all around.Now, cold murder is not moral gray.That's just bad, to be clear.
40:42But if it's more of a heroes versus villains divide, at least at this point, then that is a distinct thing from, I think, like, the way the dance plays out in the text.I'm being really curious to see if that changes at some point or, like, how long that is maintained.I mean, we do have to remember that Damon, like, killed his wife in the bail.Yeah, it's like, people do bad things.And he said that everyone's capable of depravity.Absolutely.Yeah, absolutely.Yeah, yeah.
41:09quote from the section of the book, because I'm thinking a lot about Corlis and Rainiusand, like, if they are ever going to find out if Lane were still alive or what's going togo on. But basically, like, their daughter-d-ise.Because they didn't go to the wedding. You know, presumably that happened on their shores,and they were like, you know what, we're just-I think that's Dragonstone.Oh, is it?It's Dragonstone in the book, but also all the smoke, I think, is coming from the dragon on,
41:32the volcano.Okay, I thought that might have been like a marine layer, you know.But the section of the book says, for this was to be a, a,year when many of the long simmering tensions and jealousies that had plagued the seven kingdomsfinally came to a boil a year when many and more would have reasons to wail and grieve andrend their garments though none more than the sea snake Lord Corley Salarian and his noble wifePrince Raineese, Princess Raineese, she who might have been queen. So like this isn't like theylost two of their children rapid succession. How is this going to play out for them?
42:05And there's a division in their marriage currently where Rainis is like,I'm not down with these white kids who are not my grandchildren as far as I'm concerned.Give give the, give drift mark to our granddaughter.Like, do that.And Corley's is like, oh.Big moment there for Mr. Feminist.Yeah.Well, I think that what's his distinction that he's just like, history doesn't remain,
42:31remember bloodlines or remember names or what does he say?Yeah, history just remember blood, remember his names.And he says, what is this brief mortal life, if not the pursuit of legacy?Obviously, an incredible whiff of the Taiwan-Lannister legacy energy there.That was a great conversation between Corliss and Renice because, like, they are both.Renice, there's something about what she's saying.Let's pass Driftmark through Lena's line.That's lovely, right?
42:59You're telling me that I was robbed of the crown and it's wrong.here's a chance to do this inside of your own household.Let's pass it down through our daughter to her daughters.But there's all of this mixed tension because what is Renice doing?And Corlis does say you'd have me cast an even darker shadow over those boysand their ideas.It's unambiguous what the takeaway from that would be.Not only what that would mean for Luke, you know, basically being disinherited from
43:28the line of the Lord of the Tides, but what the impact would be on James.there because that shadow would extend. And so it's a, what she's suggesting is a threat to Corliss'score ambition of that proximity to the Iron Throne. And I think like to get back to what youasked 10 minutes ago, Chris, that I never answered. Lainor and whether we think they're in cahoots,like I think that I think that that conversation where Lainer comes back sees what has happened.hysterical moment where heis like, oh God, is everything okay?And they cut to Luke and Jayce.
44:03No one has given Luke a clothfor his bleeding head.I know.Jake's a cloth for his bleeding head.And Luke has just like two socks stuffedoff his broken nose.Their faces were, that was priceless.And Rainer is being stitched up
44:16from the wound from the dagger.That dagger, the fire, the blood,fire, blood very presentthroughout this episode at symbols.But one of the things that Lenore saysto Renera. He's saying, I'll be a better husband. I'll be a better father. I'll do all these thingsthat I maybe haven't done a good enough job of doing. And she's like, if you want to know what you can do,it's this, right? That's my assumption is that that's the part of the conversation that takes place next.
44:42But I think also, like he said, we made an arrangement all those years ago to do our duty and yet explorehappiness, but there are times when I think these things cannot mutually exist. And so they'rebasically flipping that for him. Go follow that happiness then instead of the duty. Now, to beclear there are a lot of tradeoffs here. He has to leave his family, his life, his name,his dragon. He's doing all that anyway. He just wants to go fight in the stepstones with Carl.Like he gets some kind of like approximation of his dream anyway. We've seen how unhappy he is.And like he even says, I hate the gods from making me as they did, which is so heart-wrenching.And devastating to hear in this episode. So like he makes a choice if he makes a choice, if that is in fact how it played
45:27that Reneera didn't, right, to go across the narrow sea and live a completely differentkind of life. And again, it's not without complication or sacrifice, to be clear. But I thought that contrastof how Reneera responded to Kristen's very self-interested and personally motivated proposal.I hate that guy. And to everything that plays out here was notable as well. I also think that, like,to my earlier query about whether or not Joffrey's sexuality motivated Kristen beating his face off,Christmas, like, sneering laughter when Allison, like, makes some comment about Lainor's sexuality.I think that just, like, really underlines that for me.I hate that guy.
46:06But the one criticism, a strong criticism I saw levied at Reneer after last week was how could she be so reckless to have only kids with Harwin?Why didn't she try to have kids with Lainor?So we get two scenes in this Epsis where she says that to Damon and then she and Lainor talk about that as well.So, like, was what she did with Harwin reckless to a certain degree, yes,but it wasn't that she didn't try to also have Valarian-looking children.Yeah, they tried to install that offense.They just, the quarterback couldn't get it.I wanted to say, because I guess it's kind of weird, like,
46:44when you're talking about a Game of Thrones show,but especially with this one, you get to the point where you're really breaking downthe morality of like, did they stage?And we kind of just skipped over the part where,the niece marries the unclewhich is likeyou knowtalk about it now
47:00I'm for itcharacters and in terms of likewhat's happeningor just likeI buy itand I guess in the worldof this showit works or whatever
47:11it really jumped out at mewas the links to whichReneira has to goto be with the personshe loves I guessversus the waythe men in this showcan just do whatever
47:24the fuck they want. You know, like, I, you know, that Renira has to essentially put togetheran immersive theatrical experience to get divorced or whatever from, from Lainor.Damon could just kill his wife. Like, he's like, you know, people keep nagging me about her.I'm just going to go show up one day and start a little horse and then finish the job. And,you know, even I remember earlier in the season, I think it was Otto and Vassaris or Damonand Viseras who were basically like,when we were their age,we used to just like screw everything in sight.
47:59David says that to Vassaris.Yeah.And it's just like, well, it's different for women.You know what I mean?Yeah.And meanwhile, like,so all of these peoplewho are standing watching Reneira and Alice in fight
48:08are basically depraved.But Reneira's husband,being unable to father her children,is shattering the kingdom.And I do think that they've done a good job at,like, at juxtaposing,the sort of way in which the men operate with out in punity,and the women have to, like, operate under the cover of darkness all the time,
48:32quite literally when they consummate their relationship.Yes.I think that's true.I guess, I mean, Lainer also had to participate in this immersive theatrical experiencefor a person that he loves.And I think I should just say really quickly because I think that's a really good point.And I think I should just say really quickly because I didn't earlier,that the way Lainer's death plays out in the book,
48:53the most believable versionis that Damon pays Carlto kill Lainor.Joe, can you please tell Chris how Carl is spelled?I just want you to blow his mind here.I want Chris to guess.Tell him.C-A-R-L.
49:09That's what I'm going with.It's you.It's Q.Q-A-R-L.Okay.Okay.I just saw like some light drain out of Chris's eyes.It's C-A-R-L.
49:21That's like,If I was making a name tag for that guy,I'd be like, here you go, you're Carl.That's his new name.Now that he's started a new life for himself,he's known you're Carl with a cue.He's Carl with a C now.But the Damon pays Carl to kill Lainor
49:36and then the Damon kills Carlto cover his tracks.And that's how that all plays out.And so, yeah, this is a major departureand a major, I guess, whitewashing of Damon's character,a character that we've had a lot of questionsabout why we're seeing so manyof his deeds off screen.
49:54Like, why are they hiding so many of his bigger moments off screen?And I don't know if it's to keep the audience rooting for him, or if they're just reallyenjoying this mystique that Matt Smith is bringing to the role.But I really felt that connection.I think, based on, like, set photos and stuff like that, again, not, this is not in a spoilerway, but just the first set photos we ever saw were that scene, was that scene with Emma Darcyand Matt Smith on the beach.shooting that scene.
50:24And so I actually think, based on interviews, I read,that this was their first week of filming was this.Interesting.The exteriors, at least, for this.And so I thought it was really powerful.The Matt Smith, Emma Darcy connection is extremely potent.Amazing.When Renira leans in and says, I want you,
50:47like, it's one of the most electric crackles of chemistrythat we've gotten on the show so far.And I thought, too, like the contrast of, on the one hand, it's like, Damon, you're at your wife's funeral and you're both at your in-laws house.Let's pump the brakes for a second.Anyone could see you.You're just standing out on the beach.But I thought the contrast to the brothel, bowels of the brothel, auto finally getting the payoff on the coupling thing.The contrast to how public and showy that was versus how really, like, intimate and tender this scene was.
51:21Well, yeah, I mean, even look at their wedding itselfwas like almost primordial.Like the painting of the faces, this very small ceremony.Valerian rights, the bloodbinding, yeah.And compare that to the way her wedding was being celebrated to Lainorand how gaudy and like drunken and just sort of off the fat of the land that was.This seems like much more elemental and powerful.I always find it difficult to ask you to about what might happen,
51:54but I do kind of want to tease this out a little bit.Am I right to think that based on the limited guest list for Reneira and Damon's wedding,that this will not be well received?I mean, Vassaris has certainly never wanted this ever.He's fought against this from the jump.A couple memorable conversations about why Vassaris didn't want this to happen.So I think the private nature of the ceremony, but also the specific Valerian-laden nature of the ceremony is important, clearly.You know, I think like there's very little about these Valerian rituals in the text, but there is one line from fire and blood.
52:37The wedding was, this was about other characters earlier in the timeline.The wedding was performed on Dragonstone under the Aegis of the Dowager Queen Vysenia, as the castle septon refused to officiate.Magor and his new bride were joined in a Valerian right, quote,wed by blood and fire, end quote.Again, this blood and fire, you know, we hear Rainer speak to Damon about this idea,the Valerians are of the sea, but you and I are made of fire.We have always been meant to burn together.And I think there are a lot of things at the heart of their marriage here and this union,
53:08this coupling at last, there's the shared tragedy.They both talk about how they're in mourning, right?There's sincere love and passion and an attraction and draw to each other.that's been there since the beginning. But what else has been there since the beginning?That understanding of an interest in that Targaryen purity, they always speak Valerian to each other.He gave her the Valerian steel necklace in the first episode and said, now you and I both own a smallpiece of our ancestry. They both ride dragons. Like, they both have cited Agonne the conquerer manytimes, including here. When they're talking about political strength and cementing in Renera
53:43saying it'll be harder for people to challenge my claim if we're wed, like she's not. She's not,just thinking about the political reality of the day in the realm right now and how other peoplemight respond to it. Though, of course, that's part of it. Again, she mentions the Greens here.They are both thinking about what it means to be the house of the dragon in a way that not as manyother characters around them are. And so I think that can be something we look at too when we trackwho is aligned. And certainly Viseris has always shied away from the Dragon Rider elemental aspectof being a Targaryen.But last week we saw Damon hold up in a library in Pento's just like reading old
54:21dragon text.And I feel like he read about this marriage right in a book in Pentos.It was like, babe, you know, it would be really cool.Yeah, yeah.If we cut our lips open with dragon glass.Damon has big civil war reenactor vibes.Yeah, exactly.I had one more question about whether or not I was reading too, oh, can I say reading
54:42too much into it?Because then you're like, well.I found that the scene of their return from Drift Markbetween Vassaris and Allison to be noteworthybecause he is, I mean,Vegas is no longer taking bets on Vassaris.He continues to just defy expectations.He is essentially going to be a rolling torso at some point.
55:07But he's obviously travel just completely incapacitates him.and, you know, Otto had said go to him.I thought it was interesting that she was like,kind of like pumping him full of wineand almost trying to keep him in cotton.You know, like, let's just kind of like keep you drunk,happy, immobilized, whatever.Are we starting, like, Vissaris obviously held
55:32literally no sway over a single person in that roomwhen he was demanding everybody do what he saysand everybody was just doing whatever they wanted.Are we seeing Allison sort of,start to manipulate or incapacitate Vassaris a little bit?I think she has been, right?She's like running, making decisions in the small council.There was that really interesting moment in the confrontation with everyone in the room
55:59when Viseris demands Aymn tell him who told, who was talking about Renair's children likethey were bastards and he looks at his mom and it's so clear that it was Allison.It was awesome.And then, again's like, I guess like me?Agon's incredible.He's like, I talk a lot of shit, but I don't know if I said that.Also, also, speaking of Taiwan energy, auto, like, kicking Agon awake and dragging him to bed.It was classic Taiwan Jophrie stuff.
56:28I loved it.But I'm going to miss Taita Tent in a lot when he goes.But I think it's just more, just more and more of what we've seen already from Allison in terms of her maneuvering.And we saw it weeks ago when Emily Carey was playing Allison.Was Allison coming to see Vassaris and just asking him questions and gently steering him?And this is just the AP advanced course in that, which involves boring.Tell me more about model making.Exactly.
56:58Love some stone masonry.I think everyone's putting in gaming.I love that you have hobbies.That's so fun.That's so cool.I got you your very own dragon figurine.I had it made for you.Well, that was a nice gift.
57:11I think though, Chris, like everyone is plotting and scheming,like as much as we're weirdly shipping the uncle niece,Sparge and saying, oh, boy, watching these related people,fuck was one of our favorite scenes of the season so far.What a television program.They're also enacting a plot.And one of the things that's interesting about the Allison Viserrae dynamicis what happens then when he's removed.
57:34There's another fascinating conversation between Alicent and Lariswhen Viseras is not there.And what did you both make of the moment between Kristen and Allison earlier in the episodewhen he's like, why is this guy Laris here and looking at you all the time?I also, here's another follow question for you.Kristen Cole had night watch duty.Where was Kristen Cole when all those children attacked each other?I think, didn't Vassaris say that?
58:01Wasn't he just like, what the fuck do I pay you guys for?The King's Guard has never had to defend Princess from Pritch's.I have some notes on Kristen.He needs to study Targaryen history.a little bit more closely.Also, he thinks the boys are all cousins,and that's not the correct relationship.So he's slipping on his homework a little bit.
58:17I don't know.Like, this is not a book thing.I don't know if Allison and Kristen are knock of boots or not.I don't know.I mean, I thought that the scene between Allison and Lariswas supposed to be basically, like,this is Allison come full circle.And the end of the last episode,
58:32she's scandalized by Laris's admission that he has done her bidding.And she's like,I didn't tell you to do that.And this time she comes to the endand she's just like,I don't need you now.When I do need you,like, you'll know
58:48and know that you'll like have like a placelike in my kind of like galaxy here.Absolutely.But what does it mean if the two peoplewho are her closest confidantsaren't working together?Like Kristen calls him Lionel Strong's son.Doesn't even call him by his name.
59:03And we're led to believefrom the last episode thatLaris and Allisonare like dining togetherby candlelight whispering secrets to each other,basically nightly.Kristen is the closest person to Allisonin her sworn shield
59:13and doesn't maybe understandthe depth of that relationship.That's significant to methat two of the peoplewho are closest to herare not really awareof the other person's role in her life.Team Green looking sloppy.
59:23All Kristen has to do is talk to Talia,the house maiden.Oh my God.Talia has eyes and ears everywhere.Talia knows like my god.When does she become like,when does she become Varis?She's like in every room.
59:35She's like, Tali, do you beat it?Like I'm getting so.centrally positioned in the cluster of Alicent,I have a lot of questions.Egon, Helena. Unbelievable.If Tony Gilroy was writing this show,we would get like a Talia episode next.Like, we would definitely get like the like side side thing.
59:54I think we can wrap it up there.We've really covered a lot.Thanks to Steve Allman for producing us.Mallory and Joe will be back on Tuesday on Ringervversewith the House of Our Deep dive into this episode of House of the Dragon.Andy and I will be chatting about it,but we're also covering some other stuff this week on the watch.But in the meantime, keep it dialed, ring reverse.
01:00:12There's lots of stuff happening.And thanks for listening.We'll see you next week.Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari.In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly,big board buck slot machine by Aristocrat Gaming,Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package.The biggest prize in Yamava's history.
01:00:46Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizesand secure a spot in the finale May 29th.Don't pass go and own it all.Only at Yamava.celebrating its 40th anniversary.You win?Details at yamava.com must be 21-20.Please gamble responsibly.
01:00:58Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro.Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion.You can't reason with the sun.Trust us.We've tried.This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute.Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh raysthat can burn and damage your skin.
01:01:16The sun is relentless.But so is our gear.Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outsideand less time slathering on allotion.You're welcome.Columbia.Engineered for whatever.
There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click any sentence in the transcript to leave one.