House of R - ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 1 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Gods be good! The time has come for Mal and Jo to take their place on the Iron Throne and dive deep into the Season 2 premiere of 'House of the Dragon.' They begin with their opening snapshot and discuss the excitement of returning to the wonderful world of Westeros (04:50). Then they begin their patented deep dive and go scene by scene for all of the action and intrigue that the Dance of the Dragons brings (09:44). Be sure to get tickets for the Ringer Residency in Los Angeles this summer! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply.

See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Do anything but what I ask, and I'll plead the whole lawyer. And welcome to House of Ar, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

Yeah. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the Royal Courters. Clearly. Nothing bad ever happens here. But also to House of Our's newish podcast feed. joining me today to remind us that the critical days since Vassaris's passing have not gone to plan. It's Joanna Robinson. First of her name, Joanna the Dragon Heart.

Titles, titles, Mallorubin. You know what the doubt was. Joe, we're back. Yeah. And this is the stuff, as they say, as Vassaris says. Hot D, we love Hot D. Season two is here. We have so much to get to today, but before we discuss the caprice of youth, some very quick programming reminders.

House of Our, Talk the Thrones, Midnight, boys. We're on YouTube now. We sure are. Go to the Ringervverse YouTube channel if you haven't yet. Hit that subscribe button while you're at it. Smash that bell. Yeah, smash the bell. Give us the five stars. We're not too proud to ask, right? We're not too proud to ask. The hat is out. Kristen's hat? Yeah. Oh, boy. Full video pods of House of our Talk to Thrones and Midnight Boys coming all summer long on the new YouTube channel on Spotify. And you can still listen to us wherever you get your podcast.

So that's delightful. What is coming very quickly on the programming front? Well, we've got a live show. Next week. I'm so excited for that. It's one week from today. Thrilling. June 25th here in Los Angeles at the L. Ray Theater.

If you have not gotten your tickets yet, there's still time. The ringer.com slash events. Please join us. We would love to see you there. We would love to not see empty seats. You, come join us. Me. Chris Ryan.

Yeah. Chris the magnanimous. Some pals. Some pals. Also, we'll be back with you on Thursday, right here for our accolate deep dive. And then we will be with Chris again on Sunday night immediately after House of the Dragon episode two for Talk to Thrones. So that's thrilling. The Midnight Boys, Poo!

Have an instant reaction to the first episode of Hot D already up for you. you and they will be hitting the Accolite and the Boys in one mega episode on Thursday. So lots coming. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh, listen. Why don't you just follow the pod? That would be a great idea, I think. Subscribe to the YouTube channel, as we already mentioned. Do it. Follow us on X, on Instagram, on TikTok, Twitter. I refuse to bend the knee. Do all that on Peach, whatever you prefer. Yeah, love Peach. Also, email us, Hobbits and Drag at gmail.com. We got so many emails this week. We're thrilled to be back in the in the rookery. And yeah, that's fantastic stuff. That's some stuff. You will also be back with everybody for trial by content on Thursday.

Yes, Thursday. With Neil and Dave. So that's thrilling. Yes. So much coverage coming. Check out theringer.com. Riley, cram, bakes. Everyone is cranking out amazing pieces. It's just like a bounty. A bounty of dragon. goodness. Okay. Last programming reminder. It's the same one as always. It's our friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning. Here it is. Obviously, we're going to be talking about quite literally everything that happens in this episode of television. House of the Dragon, season two, episode one. Anything that ever happened in Game of Thrones could come up today on the fire and blood front. As always, we will be incorporating quotes, details from the entire literary canon from fire and blood as we go for context, for additional insight. We will not be talking about anything that is to come in the future of fire and blood, which means future of the story,

until a separate, safely sectioned off spoiler section, a little mini book spoiler section that we're going to do at the very end. We will offer up a real-time, spoiler warning right before we start that, so you will have one more opportunity to bounce if you don't want to hear that. It'll be so clear. I think that's it. Yeah. Joanna, duty is a sacrifice. Let's buy. It's time for the opening snapshot. This is not a sentence, but in honor. All right, we're talking about a son for a son. Season two, episode one, directed by Alan Taylor written by Ryan Condal.

59 minutes. Zippy. A zippy. Joe, we're going to get to the deep time in a few minutes. We're going to go beep by beat. But just like a quick, a moose bush, little taste. Yeah. What did you think of this episode of television?

Yeah. What did you think of this return to Estros? thrilled to be back at Westrose. Yeah. My boosh is quite a moose by everything that's happening here. Alan Taylor, directed this episode. Alan Taylor is sort of the producer-director of the season. It was fun to watch all the sort of like behind the scenes with him and his like

jaunty little vests talking about everything like great vests, talking about everything that he did for this episode. Also, he specifically called out Kristen Cole as the worst character in the story. Which is a huge moment for you specifically. Really? He was like, this is the worst guy in Westrose. Went out of his way and like a. Six minutes inside the episode to say, let me just draw attention to the fact that this is the worst person in the story.

And I was like, Joanna is going to be elated. Joanna, you were right. Chris and Cole is the worst. And I felt good about it. And Alan Taylor and I heard and understood. Best friends. Thor of the Dark World never happened as far as I'm concerned. Underrated Cinematic Classic.

Great. You know where I stand. I know. Shout out Malady accursed. On the wrong side of history. So I really enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed it more and more as I watched. And most of all, I think.

in a meta way. I'm just so excited to be back, like, potting about it with you, doing Talk of Thrones with Chris, consuming all the great, you know, written content on The Rigger.com. What a great website. But also just like listening to our like pals we've known for years who cover Thrones, like listening to their pods. Like, it's just really fun to be back. This is like how we found each other in the first place. Listening to each other pods. The community of people who love Thrones, who get to talk about it with each other, it is like just a joy. It's a joy to be back. Joy to be back.

I loved this episode. I thought this was dynamite. Joe, I loved it. Joe, I loved it. I thought this was a fantastic season premiere. Obviously, this, you know, we're going to talk for a while today about blood and cheese and for book readers. This was one of the most anticipated, which feels like a fucked up thing to say about

such an utterly grim sequence. But it's one of the most infamous textual moments. and so we've been waiting for this for a while. Quite a move to start the season with this. I love it. It's a real declaration of intent, a real tone-set move. And you pair the intensity of what unfolded in this episode with the fact that we are, and we talked about this a lot in our preview pods,

widening the map. We're opening in the north. We're going to be in all sorts of different places. We're not just going to be in Kings Landing, Dragonstone, Drift Mark. No more time jumps, right? No more, oh, was this 10 years between episodes? This was a 60 years between episode. Days.

We learned that Renera has been out looking for Luke. Very sad. For days. So we pick up, in essence, right where we left off. And we are going to move at that clip the rest of the way, not only this season, but like through the dance. So I think that is going to be very refreshing for some of the viewers who found the time jumps in season one not to their taste or liking.

And so I thought in just a number of different respects, this was a this was a, this was a, a zippy, tight, incredibly well-written and structured and acted way to start the season. And I'm delighted to be back. I almost entirely agree. I will say that the bulk of our emails, and I agree with a lot of them, had to do with, like, that's not quite what I expected from Blood and Cheese. Oh, yeah. Well, we've got some takes.

So we've got some notes on that. Yeah. And I will say that, like, something that we said in our preview when we were talking about blood and cheese is I remember you literally saying, this could be the making of this show. And I don't think that's quite the case. You know, and in the behind the scenes, I think it was Ryan Condole was like hoping that Helena's flight down the hallway was going to like live forever in infamy of all of Thrones. And I was like, I don't think they quite hit the mark there.

I'm optimistic for them hitting the mark with some other big things this season. But like right out the gate, that was one where I was just like, it wasn't, we sound like utter sickles. I know we sound like complete sickos being like, we wanted it. We wanted more. It's been an interesting experience both on Talk of Thrones, just in casual conversation with friends and certainly over the next, who can say how many hours, to have to confront the number of times that we say, I know this makes me sound like a sociopath, but... And yet, here we are.

All right. We can only be ourselves. We can only be ourselves. That's the opening snapshot. Should we dive deep? Let's do it. In the bowels of a pleasure den. Oh, my God.

The combo of... So this is the first time we've had the absolute genuine... It is a pleasure, truly, of hearing the bowels of the pleasure. one of our favorite bits incorporated into the soundboard. Thank you, Steve, as always, wonderful stuff. What a gem. To pair that with a dragon screech, I guess we knew on some intellectual level that that was going to happen, but you don't really know until you hear it, do you? It's a full journey. It's a lot. It's a lot to take in. If you guys are new to this podcast,

that Dragon Screech is actually Mallory and the throes of anxiety in advance of last season. We're going to talk about some characters being in the throes of other things today. But that was, yeah, the throes of anxiety there. all of our segments we like to name them after things that are happening in the current season that we're covering but for the deep dive

we can't leave the bowels we had to stick with auto's absolutely like instantly iconic season one vowels of a pleasure done moment okay wait wait Steve can we get a can we get a coupling coupling

yeah coupling it's time for us to do some content coupling here okay because we don't call it The deep dive for nothing, Joe. We are, as always, going to go scene by scene through the episode. Some scenes deserve more attention than others.

Yes, we will be spending, I would say, somewhere between 50 to 60% of the episode talking about the Cargall twins. Oh, when you started with a cuss sound, I thought for sure you were talking about Kristen Cole. And his new duties. We definitely have some Kristen discussions ahead of us today. No doubt. Okay, but we have to start before we actually get to the plot of the episode with the new opening credits. I was thrilled. I was over the moon. Give me your emotional response to seeing this before we go through what we actually saw. Crying, rending my garments, pulling my hair out. I was so excited. You love a tapestry. I love a tapestry. I was so excited. Yeah, what do you know? You love an Ocean Vista. True. You hate a crevice. A poor.

You love a tapestry. I do love a tapestry. Listen, the opening credits for last season of Game of House of the Dragon, were a misstep. And we all kind of agree. And I, Brian Condal gave us some interesting interviews where he was talking about sort of like why they changed it. And he has like an in universe reason why he's like, whoa, we sort of ran out of whatever. But like what's true is that they just were not successful. Nobody could see anything.

It was dark. It was confusing. Blah, blah. This is so lively and fun. This like real time threads of the tapestry sewing the history of the Targaryen. So good. Going back to Valeria. We're back to Valeria, all of that.

We're going to talk about everything it was. I do want to shout out one of our listeners. This is just like a not so humble brag. We've got a medievalist professor listening to the podcast. Dr. Valentine emailed us about the, thank you, Steve. Email us about the Bayou Tapestry, which Ryan Condell called out as like direct inspiration. He told the Hollywood Reporter for this opening sequence here. But Bayou Tapestry, if you're unfamiliar,

depicts William the Conqueror's arrival in England. Your guy. Your guy, big Bill. Yeah. Yeah. Completely unproblematic figure. So Dr. Valentine says the biotapstry includes things like portents. A sign and a portent.

A portent and a sign. Battles, negotiations in the crowning of William the Conqueror. So many of our favorite things. We love this. What did this make you think of when you first saw it? Were you thinking of anything in the universe? Yes. It made me think in addition to all of the real world history that I'm definitely super familiar.

Yeah. You and Billy the Conquer? It made me think of Helena, who we will be discussing not only the character in her deeply tragic role in this episode, but the little, the mini dream dispatches that Helena is dispensing across the canon. A mini dream, an MDD. Hitting the newswire. Yeah, Dateline. You love a date line. You love a date line.

And one of the mini prophecies that we heard from Helena in season one was hand turns looms, spool of greens, spool of green, spool of black, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. Hand turns loom. Now, this is in the Drift Mark episode of season one. It immediately transitions into just a classic bit of brotherly banter between Agon and Amund. And so even compared to some of the other. And Emmons like, I wish I could. If mother would but ask. I love her and all of her bug stuff.

Thanks so much. And so even compared to some of the other little dream dispatch patches, that one, The MDDs. That one felt like, oh, okay, what is the larger connection and what is the, like, the semantic resonance and it was a really fun one to Parsons. So I just like that tether. And our interpretation is that she's talking about the different sigils, right, that we're going to have, like, a golden dragon.

Yeah. You know, what would Stanis and Renly say? Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's got a lot of notes on this. It's obviously just terribly confusing if we're all using the same tanner out at war. So would he be eating a peach when he said it? Who's to say? Is he a ham? Game of Thrones.

What a show. What a show? What a show? What a show? What a show? All right. What are we actually seeing in the new opening credits? Let's just kind of very quickly rapid fire.

We, we lamentably don't have time to talk about the significance of all. of these, but I think some of them will pop up contextually as we go today. You can't wait to talk about Magor as much as possible. As you know, Magor, the cruel is a favor of mine. I love a maniac. I love a Targaryan maniac, and we have no shortage in the story

and he is one of them, so great to see him here. Joe, we open with the Valerian Freehold and the blood trickle, stream deluge from the season one credits. The blood is still present here. You know, fire and blood.

Like, we can't abandon this completely. Absolutely. The blood into the dragon in front of a humanoid figure definitely pinged the blood mage history of the freehold for us, which Viseras, of course, calls out in the first season. He's much like our emailers, a scholar and a student of history. He's a history guy. He's a history dad.

He's definitely read Shogun. For sure. 100%. For sure. What next? What did you see next? Oh, we're wondering if this is a Zahar. high and Nisa Nisa.

A sword thrust into the beating heart of your beloved, it definitely pinged Nisa Nisa. So it feels like that's what we're meant to associate there, but who can say for sure? The next image seems to be Denise the Dreamer, who's not sure if you've heard the Targaryens, the dreams, the prophecies. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy? I don't know why. I really went into Waldrick. Peweer.

He's a peiard voice there. This dream that ultimately led the Targaryen family to head west, to head to Dragon Yeah, the Targaryans got the fuck out of there, but all the other Dragon Riders didn't. Tough one. Because Danis the Dreamer, like Helena, is someone who, like, people don't listen to. Yeah. Keep it to a tight circle. Yeah.

And she had been like, hey, if Helena had been like the rats and Egan had been like, maybe we should put literally one guard on this bedroom, then, like, perhaps all of this would not have happened. But no. the dreamers are doomed to not be listened to. But yeah, Danny's the Dreamer. What's just got next? The Targ's going west. Dragonstone. Doom of Valeria. You love the Doom. I love the Doom. Who doesn't love the Doom? How many volcanoes?

All of the dragons who died. When can we do a full pot on the 14 flames? Okay. I would love that. When will there be a spin-off series? They're like 13 volcanoes, not enough. And then we get the conquest, which we might get a whole entire TV show about. Yeah, I hope so. I still have some thoughts on the exact sequencing and order of the overall House of the Dragon bucketing. And if we're going to eventually do Blackfire and Egon's Conquest, and if we build eventually to doing Roberts Rebellion and the Fall of the Mad King, like should we not have gone in just reverse cron or in chronological order? But hey, you know what? I love a spin-off. So we see a few things in this conquest timeline, Joe. First, we see Egan and his sister wives. The Targaryens. They love fucking. incest, not sure if you've heard. Agon on Valerian. We're not talking about Mormon sister wives. We're talking about sisters also wives. You are also wives. Correct. Sisters, who are also wives. We see Rainis on Meraxis. I forgot my spray bottle. And we see if it's any on Vigar. Vagar alive. Yeah. During the conquest. That's an important thing to remember.

Old and huge. The Valerian ships on the water. Yes. So the Vlarians were helping them out on the, on the, you know, water battle front from the beginning. We get Balerian the Black Dread, which is what I call my cat when she's misbehaving, attack on Heron Hall. Great stuff. And the Field of Fire kind of incorporated into this same visual where you can see the carnage, the burnt bodies. If you look closely, you can see the Lannister Lion's sigil. You can see the House Gardner sigil. And they're all like blacked. It's tough. Field of Fire, strong and accurate branding. My favorite, this is actually my favorite tidbit in all of this is in the back. background, you can see Rainey's on Marraxies going down and Dorn in the background. Hell Holt. Yeah.

Another great name. George. We named the studio the Hellholt. I'm just thinking about it. I like it. But yeah, Marraxies is taken down by a scorpion, and we obviously see a scorpion in this episode. We sure do. Manned by Eric.

With an A. Aric. Aric with an A. We then see some bending of the knee. We see the errands. We see. the storks the storks. We did so much accent work before the thought.

The storks. The starks. This is torren, who of course will be mentioned prominently in the opening stretch of the episode. And we get to see some Tully action here as well. So this is a thrilling stretch in the conquest to get to see this incorporated. The errands and the and the starks and the storks of crowns. Tully, not so much because they were never. No. They were never kidding. We were like, if we bend the knee, you're going to like improve our circumstances. Great. Right, I'm in.

I'm in. Then we get your guy. My guy, Magor. Magor the cruel. The sprawling expansion of the Red Keep. We'll talk a little bit more about Magor's tunnels later. Wonderful to see that here. And then on the Magor front, we do see him, Joanna, impaled on the iron throne.

Now, this is wonderful. We talked a lot as Viseras's various appendages were falling off last season. And the back wound first and then the finger cut and on and on we built. this idea of the iron throne holding you in judgment. But letting Egon just sprawl his entire worthless body across the room. Who seemed more comfortable in their seat? Egon on the Iron Throne hanging out with his mates, who I know you have some thoughts on the name for that crew coming later, or Chris Ryan on the top of throne set.

Oh, Chris. 100%. Both remarkably at home. Oh, just at ease. Like Boca Tan. In their elements. Yeah. And Vermithor and Silver Wing

are present in the sides of the frame as Megharas position in the middle. Those are, of course, the dragons of of Jhaeris and Al-Azane. Who get a mention, who get a name check in this episode. And Vermethor is, of course, the dragon who Damon says a well-abites here at the end of. So we've seen, so Vagar and Vermethor are still around.

Yes. Still kicking around. Yes, yes, yes. Great counsel. The Great Council. Now we're up to content that we have seen. Shout out Rainies and Corleys who look great in Stitchwork frame there. So like Emma's there. You know, Vesarius is there. We've seen this is how season one opened. Then we get a fashion moment. Allison in her green dress, Rainer and her black dress. It's a bold statement. When you saw this in opening credit tapestry form, could you still hear Laris and Harwin say? No, I leaned over to my sister and was like, do you know what color? Green. When old town calls it's banished.

Oh. Then we've got the divided table, the greens on one side, the blacks on the other. It's reminiscent of both the wedding feast where this actual fashion event happened and also that final dinner. Yes. That the family had at the end of season one. Baceres just drifting off. Like, I solved it. I nailed it.

Are you excited for your future? Are you really excited for your future when you gather your family and your friends around? you and you're carried in on like a massive throne? I intend to be brought to the bathroom for our first break via litter. Okay. Yeah. Arjuna and Steve, I hope you have that waiting for her outside. Okay.

So we have all of that. We get Agon and Reneer both crown. We start with Agon's like the gold dragon sort of emblazoned on his dress. That's what you know. Yeah. Plus a fit. Yeah. And then what do you make the hands?

The hands. So the ravens. Yeah. coming out of the team green hand and the dragons coming out of the team blackhand, the envoys dispensed at the end of season one this initial attempt to secure allies. Do you think Amon's piss at the top of three? I was going to say, I would have like, I think Amos notes are. Ravens and Vega.

Have you heard of Vega? Have you heard of Valots? We got Storms Ed because of me, not because of some Ravens. Thanks so much. Okay. And then, but speaking of Vagar. Yeah. Vagar chomping on my sweet, darling little air act.

And Luke was also there. And Luke makes it an intact humanoid form into the tapestry, which just one more subtle little way of reminding us of the unreliable narrators quite literally stitching together Targaryen history and Westerosi history here because Luke is inside of vigorous gastro-intestinal tract. Period. Period. Period.

Did you have a favorite inclusion here, Joe? this was loaded. I think we can, based on Condal's comments about the reason that the bloodline tacked in season one that kind of reached its end, the bloodlines are set, we want to be able to update and continue to incorporate new canon elements into the opening credits. So that's exciting. We'll see more just as we do with Game of Thrones as we go. So exciting. What we have so far did you have a favorite? I think seeing like the Starks and the Tullies and the errands, like the promise of the Riverlands and the North and all of that, I mean we're about to talk about the north, but like, and winter and it's combing and all of that. But having that representation

was really exciting. Heron Hall on there was really exciting. And I am really excited to see how they expanded in future episodes. Like, how quickly are we going to get an update? Are we going to get blood and cheat? Like, is poor Helena going to be in the tapestry next week? Tune in to find out. I hope so. I think the real question is, will that poor dog who was so cruelly treated by cheese. Obviously, that's the headline of the episode and the great horror that unfolded. Will that pup make it into the tapestry? She picked a dog and it was... Appalling. Not great. Appalling. Okay, those are the opening credits. Let's talk about Jace. Jace treating with Craig and Stark in the fucking north. Winter's not coming, Joe. It's here.

I mean, not actually. We do get a detailed conversation about where we are in the seasonal calendars. Jase is like, oh, what is this falling from the sky that shivers me bones. Jase, like, briefly going into pirate mode there was so funny to me. I loved it. But we get to go through the north. We see Winterfell briefly. We go to the fucking wall. Before we talk about what actually happens in this sequence and what it means.

What did this do to you in your body, in your soul? I don't know if you've heard me say this before, but I'm of too much. inside everyone there's two you're a war with yourself two dire wolves and one of those dire wolves like the eyes

the eyes of that dire wolf started like watering as soon as I heard this dark theme what was I actually called it's like goodbye my brother which is just Rob and John saying goodbye season one of so hearing the stark heartache I was just like oh shit and then we see Winterfell

instantly ported back and I was just like very emotional and then you know good old Craig Stark starts speaking and it's just like o's duty

o's sacrifice duty that's all he's saying and so then the other wolf inside of me kind of went like I was like

I'm being pandered to in this moment did that wolf love it did that wolf want to be pandered to I think the first wolf it worked ate the cynical wolf

and it did work on me. But there's a little part of me that I was like, it was so, it was almost North Winterfell's Stark parody, you know, the number of times you said oaths, but I did love it.

We will talk about the larger significance inside of the, yeah. You only have that first joyous wolf inside of you, and that's what I love about you is that you're just sort of like, oh my, I, yeah, you were just like.

This was such an uncomplicated, yeah, a couple minutes of just she, a jubilation for me to be back in the north. I, as we've talked about many times, in our various preview pods, trailer breakdowns, etc., these, in general, Jace's mission to the Erie, Three Sisters, White Harbor, Winterfell, I just love that stretch of fire and blood.

And we're just talking about a few pages of Jace at Winterfell, but it's like some of my favorite stuff in fire and blood. I just love it. So I was so excited to see this. I am lamenting a little bit how quick quickly, Jace left because, yeah, I would have loved for him to spend a little bit more time there, though I understand why the necessities of the flow of the episode, getting a back for the funeral, et cetera, made that impossible. But it was wonderful to meet Craig and Stark.

It was wonderful to see the wall again. It was wonderful to travel via Ravenwing into Winterfield and just be in the north and hear that score and just remember what we love about Thrones. It just felt good. and it felt right. It felt mostly good for me. Primarily good. And it does continue this tradition with like season one after the Great Council Prologue going into the card. We're now nine years into the reign of Asaris to get and the connection 172 years before. Deteris, like wanting to draw these ties. Would you say that was fire and this is ice? Is that what you say? We did see ice. We did see ice. We did see ice. Craig and just walking around with ice. trapped to his back, like it's nothing.

It's like, do you know what I can squat? Do you know what I can bench? Now, I do not know anything about extra results. Probably not the right thing. Probably not the right muscle groups to say. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. No, I thought, I thought Jace's, Pauldatrates curls looked wonderful.

I mean, you're our wig watch scholar, so this is big. Oh, yeah. We're going natural hair here, right? Natural hair. It looks great. I mean, not on Craig. Stark. No, no, no, no. But Jace has left the wig behind. Yeah. Rocking the curls. Looks Wonderful. S sensational stuff. Joanne. On the hair front, I will say one other thing. I was listening to a

bunch of other breakdowns and a bunch of people were like, oh my God, and there's a girl in the Winterfall, in the Winterfell courtyard with long red hair. And I was like, I was sitting at home going like, well, actually, Sansa gets her red hair from her mother. So why would there be red hair? And then I rewatch it. Her hair's Auburn at best. It's not even like, I don't think that's a Sansa reference at all. But anyway, I was just sort of like the tully red. Okay? Anyway.

You're in like a real little finger memorable shade moment right now. Please down the variance. Please never again compare me. Pull up your heart. To Baylish. I would appreciate it. Thanks so much. Okay, Joe.

We have a lot to hit in this scene. Yeah. Who is Cragan Stark? Who is Torren Stark? Let's talk about Cragen for a minute to orient us in this scene, and then we'll pan back to history, and then we're going to talk about some of the, like, thematic significance of what we're seeing here. So, Cragan or Craig, as Chris Ryan calls him. And I, it's catching us.

It is catching. It's catching. And it works. The Wolf of the North, though, if you were called the Wolf of the North, it's hard for me to call you anything but that, personally. Lord of Winterfell, Wolf of the North. Is hot. This is just a elite. This is great.

Absolutely elite. Listen, he's a little Lord. He was. He was only 13 when he got Winterfell. And his father, Rickon, we saw him very briefly in season one. He's one of the lords who bends the knee to do obeisance. Time I come across that, and fire and blood, like, interesting. Sure. Do obeisance to Renira. And I'm not sure if you have heard this about the Starks, Joe, but they... The Stacks? They remember. They remember their oaths. They don't forget their oaths. Oh, man.

He had to basically fight his own uncle for control. Familiar with a family squabble, helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Do you prefer Benard or do you prefer Benjikot? What a Benjinn? Ben Jinn. Let's go with the classic.

All great, honestly. Benny Stark. Good old Benny Stark was not a great uncle and sort of tried to take over. But so, yeah, so this boy, right? this boy king, he's not a king, but this boy lord of the north has already had, like, lost his father, lost his brother, had to fight his uncle for his wife. Lost his wife, had to fight his uncle for his seat. So he has already battle tested as a teenager. Absolutely. That, the death of his brother, which we learn about in Fire and Blood,

top of mine in a couple reasons. Like, in Fire and Blood, it's positioned as that's part of why he and Jace Bond, because Jace kind of reminds him. Okay. Maybe not. Just boys being lads? Okay. Lads being bros, dudes being gents.

But also, of course, then in the show, when we see Kragan receive the Raven, with the news of Luceris' death, he has suffered this. Now, not in the early days of a familial war of succession, where Kinn ate his brother, Wait, I have a question. I think he did lose a brother, so another bond there.

How does Westrose feel about Kinslay? Are they down with it or? No man is as a cursed as the Kinslayer. This is one of our favorite refrains. No man is as a curse as the Kinslayer. You're the Kinslayer expert, and I love that for you. Tough to decide what I like to say more. No man is as a cursed as the Kinslayer or this is the stuff, Lionel.

Two of my absolute face. Kinslayer is a classic. Okay, Torn Stark gets a name check here. Yeah. The King Who Nelds. Yes. And we see that, again, we see that kneeling in the opening credits. Yeah. It's all here. Joanna.

Yeah. The kneeling. This is the kind of stuff where we as book readers are like, when Jay says our ancestors treated in this very place, we're like, did they? Well, actually, the red hair comes through the tulis. Yeah. Because that's at the Trident. At the Trident.

In the history. This is an example to me of a book. to show change that I think makes perfect sense inside of the context of what they are trying to tell us about Egon's dream, about the Song of Ice and Fire, about this prophecy that is being passed down from Targary and ruler to heir. And so, like, when we think back to the way that the kneeling, the king who knelt, it seems like a tough label to carry, oh, you're the one. You're the one who gave it. up our independent kingdom. But I've always been struck by this passage from fire and blood. From that day to this day, Torin Stark is remembered as the king who knelt. Dot, dot, dot, but no Northman left his burned bones beside the trident. And the swords agon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted nor melted nor bent. So that's not just

a sign of allegiance, right? An alliance well struck. In the context of the show, You think it indicates now. I think, okay. They're chatting about the real threat that awaits. So what happens is Torrn-Serk rolls up and he's like, Heron Hall, barbecue. Field of Fire. Yeah.

That happened. Hot bummer. Not great. Okay? And so history would have us believe he's like, what chance do my men have against all of this? Brandon Snow sneaks over into the camp. Brandon Snow is like, I'll kill the dragons.

I'll do it. messages flying fast and furious back and forth between the two camps before Torren goes and bends the knee. So my question is, I mean, Dorn held out. Oh, yeah. You know, like, Doran never bent the knee. So, like, there's one version of this where you were just sort of like, he didn't want to lose more men. They had depleted the men at the wall. This is why, you know, our guy Craig is about to talk about this tradition that started after Torin in terms of sending people to the wall.

They had depleted people at the wall. They had already born the cost of the conquest, but I like this. It kind of implies here that perhaps Agon's like, listen, Toren, you seem like a pretty cool, bro.

You're guarding the North. Let me tell you about this dream I had. Yeah, and I don't know that... Ice zombies. I don't know that he would tell him actually that he... The details of the dream just because it does seem like

it's such a tightly guarded thing. But I do think the show is implying just again by like positioning him as, oh, he went. He went up north, which is just not the setting of this crucial moment in the text canon. I think it's at least, I'm going to tell you that I understand. I think it's at least why this is a thing. Worth asking how much did Torren Stark know and when did he know it and what was passed out. And then so because the thing I bump on is like then why, where did that? But that's an exciting thing to think about.

I mean, we've always asked, like, why must there always be a stark in Winterfell? Like, you know, there's lore around Winterfell that feels like there is some sort of indication of prophecy. It's quite literally where Winter fell. Remember season eight a game of drones, ma'am? The wall, we should say, was built long thousands of years before the conquest. So it's not like, Agon's like, like, zombies are coming and they built a wall. That's not what happened. But just sort of there's this, I think this indicates more than anything we've ever gotten

before that perhaps there was some conversation. Perhaps not, maybe he didn't pull out his dagger and thrust it into a fire and say, look at these words. That explains at all. But, you know, maybe there was just some communication here. I like it. I like it. It's fun to consider. I'm into it. There's a lot of discussion about duty. Uds, which we feel clearly is meant to, again, connect to this larger burden that the Targaryians have inherited or at least think they have. inherited. Steve, can we hear a little taste of this? Since the days of the first men, we have stood as guardians against the cold and the dark. Through its long tradition, the Knights Watch cultivated its strength from doomed men who had

their life as their only position. But my ancestor, Torren Stark, began a tradition by making an offering at the onset of winter. One in ten men from our household was to be chosen to fortify the watch. This is not a sentence, but an honor. A duty embraced by all who served the North, even by mine own kin. That's how I feel about going from working remotely, basically all the time to suddenly being on the 101

for six hours a week coming to the studio. Did Bill, did Bill like... It's not a sentence, it's an honor! Did Bill overnight message you of like a little box and you opened it up and there was a blizzard? black rock inside of it. The rock playing? It's so heavily pinged survivor for me.

Oh, yeah. I loved it. Yeah. Do you think that's what they're saying when they pass around the rocks up in Winterville? Outlive, unless, out play, outwit, what is it? Outlive. Outlive. Outlive.

Do you love Survivor. Okay, Joe. Duty. It is a recurring refrain across Thrones. Of course, it makes us think of John. Of course, it makes us think of the Knights Watch. It makes us think of Mr. Eman and N. John loves the death of duty.

We talked about this throughout season one. But it also makes us think of Reneira because the season one finale, the throne has been usurped. Damon's doing Dragon Math. He's ready. Heads on the spike before the fucking moon turns. And Reneer says to him, you know my oath reaches beyond our personal ambitions.

Now it turns out he doesn't. But the way that Reneer thinks about duty, The way that Renera thinks about this larger pledge and obligation to the realm, we talked about this a lot last year. Agon's dream. Not in the book. So this is all new to us in the show. Though when you start to think about it and then you reread Fireblood, a lot of Targary

decisions, you're like, okay. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I see. Why you burnt that down? Oh, my God, no doubt. And it's actually really fun to comb through the text looking for connections to this idea. Vesaris passing this onto Reneira,

key part of season one. Renera realizing that Damon, not really ever embraced by Vassaris as a true error. Of the loop. Not in the loop. Not a worthy recipient of Vassaris' mind of this information. So we've been awaiting what we assume will come, which is this moment when Reneer will share this with Jace, her air.

Right. This feels like such an intentional, Jace not only hears this from Craygan In winter, my duty to the wall is even more dire than the one I owe to Kings Landing. Well, you think they put the 700-foot wall up for the savages? What does it keep out?

Death. The heart of winter. Even just the way that Jace, his face and his voice change when he gets to the edge and looks out beyond. To be fair, tradition. Whatever one does when they get to the edge of the wall. He didn't piss off the edge of the wall, though.

He missed a chance. That we saw. You think right after. after he learned of his brother. He was like, let me just take a quick piss. What am I going to get this chance again? And Romax, I'll be with you in a minute. Just need to take a quick piss.

But so, yeah, it feels like this experience will really inform how Jace receives this information from Renara. So I'm really looking for us. If we see her. That scene, which I hope we get. Tell him, we don't know that. But, like, yeah, this idea of a monarch or a leader, let's say, divided. Yes. And divided by something that not everyone else is aware of.

Right. I love those parallels between good old Craig and Renira. Everybody holding your decisions in judgment without being able to have access to what is guiding them. The king who knelt and you don't know everything that Torren knew. So, yeah. I love this. But Jace on this tour with the curls popping. Sensational.

And his little like, like his little princely cape. He's just, fantastic. Envoy. What an envoy. No disrespect mental Luke. But, you know. I mean, Luke got one look. at Vagar. One question about whether he was able to whip up a marriage pact and was

dead like 45 seconds later, Jace had a better result. I think that's undeniable. Delivers Winderfell. Big get. Huge. Huge. The airy. Wonderful stuff. I, okay, you had prepared me. This was one of the things in our like 900 preseason pods where I'm like, I really hope we get to go to the veil and meet Jane Aaron. You're like, there's absolutely, there is not an a yoda, not a shred of evidence that we will have this scene in the show. And I'm like, but I want it. They have cast Jane Aaron, though, for the season. I can't wait to meet Jane.

I love the, but notwithstanding your mother's poor taste in consorts, she remains our rightful queen and mine own blood besides. And Aaron on her mother's side in this world of men, we women must band together. This is part of what I was really looking forward to. It's not only the Aaron blood tie Emma Aaron, Renier's mother. but Jane Aaron cannot I think it's more powerful she's like I want to support Renaro but ultimately can't support Agon and hope to keep her

oversight of the veil so that's an interesting dynamic that yada yada over Jace going there Jase comes back to Renera later's like I got it and Three Sisters and White Harbor not even a mention in the season one finale. Shout out the Manderleys apologies to the Mander Lies. This is like the one thing that we as Asa Song of Ice and Fire lovers are going to continue to have to suffer through forever.

Waiting and longing for the mid-ties. Real time with the mandolies that we never get. We're just like, yeah, there's a mandirle like sitting in that chair. I have to settle for that, I guess. I see the sigil. That's a mannerly. Oh, man. So, yeah, we just yada yada.

We skip White Harbor, we yada yada over the airy. And then we go to force the pact of ice and fire. Did you get the exact forging of the pact that you wanted? No. You got a couple thousand graybeards. Yeah. This is another thing I know you love. You love an Ocean Vista.

You love a tapestry. You love that the old folk in the north are just like, when winter comes around, the food, it's, we're going to have to ration. So I'll just go die so that the young folk can have more to eat. So Craig is saying, like, take the old people. It's a duty. It's a sacrifice. Really connected to that northern tradition in a way that I loved.

Craig tells a story about Jahris and Allison. You actually are going with Craig. I love this for you. For now. What a win for CR. I will say, I get a little anxious about pronouncing Cragens. Cregan. It's a Cregan-K.

I used to think we're just reading it that it was Cregan. And then once they started saying Cregan. And the Craig thing is helpful, actually. So like, we called them Ned. We called him Rob. Nedumba. I know you meant Ned Stark, but I can't hear that and not say. Nedumbah.

Okay. Nedomba. So Jesus is good at this. Right? Jesus is good as this. Chase is capable. I love how deftly he navigates this mission and these relationships. We'll talk about the return later, the heart-wrenching moment with Renera. But one of the things I was really struck by is before they break down and, like, hold each other and grieve.

The way he calls her. Craig and Jace. Your Grace. They held each other off screen, right? Do you ship it? Yes. Yeah. Or why not both?

Because in the book, okay. Yeah, I missed this. Listen, in the book, two things happen. Yeah. One, Craig and Jay spent a lot of time together. Just like, growing out, right? Drinking, yeah. Then he also meets Sarah Snow, who's...

I'm sad. This was cut. I am. Craig's sister. On the one hand, I don't want Jace to be a fuckboy. I want him to have more respect for Bela than that. But I was, this was actually one of the unreliable narrator bits that I was most looking forward to seeing which account was accurate because they vary so substantially. So I'll lament the absence of Sarah Snow, though I did love this stretch.

If we had had more Winterfell and we think we're pretty sure we're not getting any more Winterfell this season. Okay. Per Ryan Condole. This is a bummer. This is it. Five minutes. They're like, yeah, in the future, sure, but. This is it. So this is what you're missing out on, show watchers only.

in the book. Very dramatic. Craig and Jace. Turn to the camera. I learned that from you. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood. Okay. That's what Jason Craig were up to.

Here's what Jason and Sarah were up to. Did they get married the godswood? Did that happen? Did she give herself to him, wrapped in first? amidst the snows as the old gods, those absolute perverts looked on. Did that happen? Who is to say? What did Jace do?

I like the idea. If you can't remember, Jace is engaged to Bela. Yes. So that is, I agree, important to me. And when he comes into C. Reneira later in the episode, Bala, like, escorts him in and stuff like that. So that is, like, important.

Definitely. I don't want him to be a fuck boy, but like. I agree. I agree. Maybe he's just like, you know, how do it's so, so you. in the north before you go back and get married. Again, like, I loved, I did love the scene, but seeing Jace just, like, be a person? A guy.

Which we haven't, we haven't gotten a lot of that. So this is an email we got from Ryan. Yeah. He said, he was talking about the oath sworn and the drinking and the training that Jason Craig do together. And he says, just bros doing bro things, like swearing eternal loyalty to each other. I redacted something. You know, like you do for your platonic.

bros. If the goal is to keep focus on the Targaryens, it seems a weirder yada yada over the packed device and fire just to get to a big CGA dragon battle faster. So much of the best of of the Thrones, and we always say this. And the best of House of the Dragon was people talking in rooms around fires, and I can't help but feel like we missed out on some very interesting moments in that Northern storyline, whether or not it proved that this queer fans gaitar is working properly. So whether or not you ship Jason Craig, Jason, Sarah, or just Jace and more character development. Yeah. We sort of rushed through that a little bit. I think like the

line in Fire and Blood that we like we get clearly is when the Prince of Dragonstone took his dragon back into the cold autumn sky he did so with the knowledge that he had won three powerful lords and all their Bannerman for his mother. Though his 15th name day was still half a year away, book age, Prince Chasaris had proved himself

a man and a worthy heir to the iron throne. Like that they nailed, I think. We get that clearly. But the bro being a dude, Just a guy being a bro. Glad making a blood, a blood bomb. Yeah. Just wearing an oath.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you mentioned the dragons. Okay. Joe, you love a portent. You love a sign. You love a portem. This story that Craigham, in the very limited time they have together, chooses to offer up. Jeharis, Alassane, their dragons were here.

They did not want to go beyond the wall. Slight update here to Book Cannon, but east. That Jeharis is there. Yes. In the book, Jeharis is home. And Alisane is bored waiting for him. So she goes up to the wall, right? She's just like kicking around,

Wonderfell's just like, I'm bored, I'm gonna go to the wall. She writes him a letter. I love Alessane. I love these characters. She's the best. She writes a letter from the wall, and every time I read this,

and I love this section, do you remember when Fire and Blood came out? I don't think you were as much of a slave to content as I was at the time, but Fire and Blood came out while Game of Thrones is still happening. And it was a mandate from everyone who covers Game of Thrones,

quickly scour this book for any hints or clues that might pertain to what will happen on Game of Thrones. And Alassane and Lassane and the wall was the number one thing that we all looked at. Huge. Yeah. Allison writes home to Jeharis, and every time I read this.

And the rumors about Fermax saving an egg at Winterfeld. That was also huge. And in this stretch. Very important. Allison writes a letter home to Jeharis, and I always read it as if she is like a Confederate soldier writing a letter home. And that's how I'm going to read it to you now. Oh, my God.

Okay. She doesn't start it, my dearest Jaharis, but less pretent. she does. She says, Thrice, I flew silver wing, high above Castle Black, and thrice. I tried to take her north beyond the wall. But every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wish to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the Black brothers would not realize

anything was amiss. But it troubled me then, and it troubles me still. just going to request in real time a social clip. We need context for that, please. Silver Wing did not want to go beyond the wall. No. Because guess what? There be zombies.

Yeah. You know, DeNaris. DeNus, you know, pushed her dragons beyond the wall, and that did not go well. Rural. Vermax, who we don't get to see in the stretch of the show, but we do hear about how Vermax is feeling about this in the book, not a fan. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said. This is not a place the dragons like to be. And of course, for any of the Targaryens in possession of this great burdensome prophecy, seeing the dragons respond that way, would only

bolster their sense that something nefarious awaited, but also potentially, like, heighten their anxiety about how equipped they would be to deal with it. So this is just delicious, no, I love this. I love that Craig is like, thanks for not bullying you with your, with your dragon. That was so funny. Unlike, you know, Eamon taking Begar to Storms End. You know, I just think, I think this is, I mean, and this is the whole thing. It's like, we'll take our dragons and we'll show them what we can do. Yeah.

And Craig is like, actually, diplomacy is working better here. Us being bros and pals together, us hunting and climbing trees. Yeah, and you may be fucking my bastard sister. While the old gods look on. Rapped in first. Who among us? That was the North. We did it.

What a scene. What a five minute stretch. What a scene. A meaty opening. Meete. A lot of lore. Okay. Next.

Yeah. Into the dragon mount. I loved getting to actually see Mali's fly into the opening of the Mont. Delightful there. I thought it was so interesting how they introduced all the castles, right? So the raven flying into Winterfell. Mayleys flying into Dragonstone and then the freaking high towers galloping into Kings Landing

Drift Mark is a little different But like that's we get these three major castles With these like you know Ravens Dragons fucking high towers Drift Mark you're just oriented by Bloods sloshing off the No blood sure Ravens dragon

The fucking high towers and blood sounds great Renice absolutely pooped from patrolling the blockade in the gullet solo. Yeah. And has one of the instantly memorable lines of the new season, Maly's must gorge and rest as must I. Damon is not particularly interested in this feedback, nor, frankly, in anybody's feedback, wants to team up to kill Vagar. I cannot face that horri-o-y-old.

old bitch alone. Hory old bitch. Constant reminders of the right out of the book. Yes. It was great to get horri old bitch in the show. You best described this meeting

between the two of them as a panther meets an electric eel. Fantastic. And I can't say I think she's the panther and he's the electric eel, right? I am going to flip it simply because of her association with a seafaring house now.

Okay, fair. And put her in the water there. I feel like the electric eel is like a little bit more chaotic and less controlled in the panthering. Panther is like prowling. They both have better armor on than I think a Panther

or an electric eel could probably manage. And her wig is incredible. I assume you'll have some takes on the improved wig coming later today in wig watch. Absolutely.

Did you have a favorite set of armor? I mean, both wonderful. I think yours looks great stuff. Amazing. Great stuff. So Damon wants a son

for a son. Yeah. Now let's keep in in the episode. Pointing name. Let's keep in mind later because we are going to do some, oh, we cut away from Damon's instruction to blood and cheese. What exactly do we think unfolded there and what are the implications, et cetera? Let's keep in mind that we hear him say this here. Long before

Reneera comes in and says, I want Amin Targary. And he's already on and I want a son for a son campaign. That was just permission. Not that he thinks he needs it, but yes, a sanctioning via the half a sentence. He is here, though, again, the team up to face Vagar. He is specifically indicating that he wants to target Amid and Vagar here. Renneeshful Heat only Reneerah. Which as we...

Would that you were king, Damon. Oh, a great line. It is a command. A great line that she said while walking away and just sort of like blithely take, like... Tough moment for Damon to be like... It was so good. It is a command.

She's like, fuck off. Whether you were king. Nice try. That feels like the kind of from just, if we put ourselves in Damon's deeply insecure headspace, you know, he's a character who we love who is like deeply flawed and troubled. The, that kind of a response from Renice feels like the kind of thing that would linger. Oh, yeah. But that's what I love about Reni's. She knows exactly where the bruises.

And she's like, let me just casually in a walk away moment. Yes. Just press on that bruise. I can't even be bothered to, like, stand still while I insult you. I'm not even going to, like, raise an eyebrows. No, I'm just going to throw this away. I told you, I need to get some protein, some complex carbs. I need a gaudy gel.

Don't get between me and my gorgeing, okay? So, yeah. I need an ice bath. I need a sauna. I don't know. I don't know much about exertion and or recovery, but as I understand it, you're supposed to do some sort of like hot cold ice and fire thing. But like, let's point out that Rignyce is like patrolling alone.

Something that Damon could definitely help her with. Yeah. Like, who's got drag it? Like, Bela is young, maybe too young, to patrol. But, like, Rainis is just doing this solo, and Damon's, like, throwing a hissy fit, wandering around being like, when can I kill something? And she's like, I'm actually just trying to keep us safe. So, thanks so much.

And goes out of her way to say, it's a good thing that Reneer is not here. It's a good thing because Damon is a lame. Mending Reneer's absence, which I want to talk about more in a second. But just stick with Runez's perspective here for a moment. This in particular is what swung Reneas to Reneira's side. The finale Reneer's impulse to caution restraint. Again, an example of where we have the context that not everybody else in the room does of why Reneer is thinking that way.

Damon wants to go to war. Reneer doesn't. And that is the thing that finally brings Reneas into. to the fold, it's hard not to think back to like, this was part of her niece's character from the beginning, right? Think of the tourney. Badwig. Great scene. Fis full of steel, balls full of seed, Joe. What else was going to happen? But blood loss. Yeah, we expect them to act with honor and grace. It's a marvel that Warden break out at first blood. That she says about the nice attorney. You have to be thinking about those guys when we later meet like Agon's bros. Absolutely.

That's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Fis full of steel balls. Fulose seed, they do not know what the, you know, green as summer grass. They don't know. Nights of summer? Yeah. Sweet summer children. They don't know what, none have known real war. Right.

And Damon, in contrast, is a seasoned warrior. Chris loved the steps stones. Balls won't see, we're not sure. Actually, no. He's got many children. He's got many children. But that moment in season one where Reneera asks Damon, And if you could take the Iron Throne without putting auto high towers head on a spike, would you?

Really? Like, calls him out on this. Is it because of the outcome you're seeking for justice? Petty vengeance. Yes. Or because you want to beat this fucker who you hate. And that's just present throughout this entire exchange with Damon here too. Something we talked about a lot last season was this idea of like when we watched Amund riding Vagar.

And where is my water bottle? And like, the look on his face when he lost control of Vagar. No, no, no, Vaghan, no. Damon is Reneer's Vagar. He is the dragon out of control. He is the dragon she cannot leash fully. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, it is dangerous.

Yes. To have a Vagar and it's dangerous to have a Damon. I love this. We talk a lot about the parallels between Amon and Damon and other position as mirrors of foils, but Vagar and Nessar. Damon is great. I love that. Damon, we have a lot of notes. Indeed.

And they're both like, kill now? Chomp, jump. Kill later? We have a lot of notes for our guy, Damon Targaryen, in this episode. But I do have to say, when Damon acted as audience avatar to once again remind her niece that she exploded through the floor of the dragon pit. Killing hundreds. Slaing legions of small phil for no reason.

Of innocent peasants. And then was like, the royal. I want this, which was the low point of season one, to be mentioned as often as possible, moving forward in the show. I don't actually want us to, like, pretend it didn't happen. I'm glad that the characters are talking about it because it was... That would be what? Deranged. Kinsling and, I don't know, what is more accursed?

The noman is more accursed than the king slurs. As you recall from the time. The thing that... Small folks slay... Demons know about whether Rindice should have ended Egan's line is like... But it's exploding through the floor. and killing all of the assembled. It's just no way to wrap your mind.

So he flings that in her face and he's like, and Luceris would still be alive, right? Luke would still be alive. And then she's like, let's talk about people still being alive. Let's talk about your wife, my daughter, Lena. Yeah. And Reneer's husband, my son, Lenore,

both dead as far as she knows. And those deaths, she puts at their doorstep. Absolutely. She despises Damon. She shuts him up, quickly, it's pretty phenomenal. It was so striking. Electric Eel style. It was so striking in the season one finale when Renice arrived on Dragonstone to

deliver the news of Hesaris's death that she only addressed Rennira. Like, if Sera's Damon's brother, but she can't even bring herself to engage with him, she really despises it. She despises him. Now, she blamed Reneera for Lainor 2. That was a shared blame, but the extra Lina variable with Damon is. And so that made it particularly, like, dramatically. compelling for her to

to allude to this with him, right, when she's talking about why Renira has to go do this, the confirmation closure that she needs. She is grieving, right? What is Damon say in response to this? The mother grieves as the queen shirks her duties.

Okay. Thinks I hate it. It makes us think of a couple things. It makes them think of Damon being at the war table while Renera is in labor at the end last season. Crying out in pain and everyone's like, do you want to go check on your wife? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, we got what a plan.

Okay. Hate. And then later, I mean, we know where he is. He's in Kings Landing doing a crime. He's got his murder hoodie on, all of that. Why go to Luke's funeral when you could go to Luke's funeral? Yeah. Again, we love Damon, but this is tough.

I don't know. I mean, I love Damon. He's an absolute piece of shit. Let's just be clear about it. So the mother agrees is the queen shirts her duties. is one of many moments in this episode and throughout the series in general where this like, you know, this gendered language comes in, right? It's just sort of like the mother here, Allison's telling Reneer that she's like leaking at

the small council table. But then Allison feeling it in this episode, she's now the Dowager queen and no one wants to listen to her. Yep, absolutely. So, you know, these things are just sort of peppered in there. And Damon, as you point out, is like her closest ally. This is what he's saying. what is everybody else going to say? What is every other man on the black counsels say? That tension and anxiety for Rainer was so palpable in the finale. And so to then feel that here in this like just another trial, like losing a child, losing now here, losing a child, like the grief is unrelenting.

The loss is unrelenting. And Renira can't rely on the people who are in theory closest to her to just support the time and space she needs. Except for Rainier. I'm like, I'm just really proud of Rainier's here. sort of holding it down. She's like, we got to wait for the queen. Excuse me. Also, we should say, I mean, we don't want to get too much into it because, you know, we don't want to get too far ahead looking, but we should say Rinear is also slightly off the board in this moment in the book.

Yeah. Because of, you know, the traumatic stillbirth, I guess is what we call it, that she just had, that she is just like, can't ride a dragon. Physically recuperating. This is different. She's on Syrax immediately, like going flying around, trying to. to find Luke's body, so it's slightly different, but they... Yeah, and we were primed for that in the finale, and a way that surprised us in real time when she mounted her dragon's home to fly to the bridge. It's like, oh, they're not going to do it this way. But the impact is the same in that, like, where's Reneera?

Yes, right. Which is the question in the book and the question here in the show right now. Joe. Yeah. From Dragonstone to Drift Mark? Let's bring on the bloody deck. Let's chip some barnacles? Yeah.

The sea sneak the ship. the sea snake, the character, Corlis, walking out to the docks to meet. Would you name your ship the Mallory? I mean, I think, but personally, I don't love the name Mallory. So probably not, yeah. The Rubin? No, I don't think so. No, but I would name it Lady Joanna.

Yeah, I would after you, my great love. Yeah. Not the Halo? Is that the little dinghy is the Halo? Oh, my sweet Halo dove. He's the best. Alan, we don't know what to say here. A-L-Y-N.

Great stuff. Watch this space. Alan is a new character who is introduced in this scene. We'll talk about this more in the book-spiller section. So it's difficult to talk much about Alan here, though obviously this is a full conversation. Like, this is clearly going to be a character in the show. Let's talk just about the Corlis perspective for a minute because we learn that Alan is the one who pulled Corlis from the water. You know,

blood fever. It's tough. It's just, we're still grateful that Corlis healed and is back with us. Yeah. The repairs, you know, Alan is working on these repairs. Corlis is like my completely wrecked ship. Guys, it's going to be barnacle free in days. Need it out there. The front is a collapsed burnt hole of a thing. The blockade needs me. Alan's like we've sent seven recently repaired ships out of our ready. So you don't think that the ship looks ready close to being seaworthy.

No? No. Not in my expert ship rate opinion. No. As the master of ships of this podcast, you do not believe that the sea snake looks close to being ready to join the blockade and the gullad. Okay. Sad. I love this job.

The dagger, though. Yes. Corliss receives this dagger that was meant for Luke. And he is quite emotional. The pommel. This little clam. Yeah. Delightful.

It's darling. Very sweet. Yeah. Wonderful. So for his heir, something that he had made for his air, little Luke. Yeah. And it's sad because, like, this is obviously the loss of a family member, but the loss of a child, not the last loss of a child in the story. Not sure if you've heard of blood and cheese.

But it makes us, it takes us back to that stretch of season one, which was the bulk of season one, where Corliss's obsession was with legacy. And this was ultimately the rift between Corliss and Reneas. And it's only when Corlis... Why don't you put the girls who are so obviously related to you on... Which we actually had a note about at the time from the Renice perspective because it's like these are your... You're going to sacrifice your other... These poor boys.

That was such a complex dynamic. But like, history does not remember blood. It remembers names. This Corlis core driving force until the very moment where he's like, I'm good with this actually. And he's just like, no, it's time to go to war. But he's very mollified by Raina and Luke who are engaged. So Baila and Jace are engaged in Raina and Luke and we get a little shot of Raina at the funeral, like the sort of ISO shot of Raina being like, well,

there goes my 13-year-old fiancée. There goes my underage fiancée. Guess I won't be the lady of Driftmark after all. To go to King's Landing. From the docks to the ramparts. I regret to inform you that it's time to briefly discuss big crossbow, which... Do you know, back in the day when it was first introduced on Thrones, on Stormers' Fathers, we used to call it the Dragon Feller? It's very dramatic.

Like something that fell as a dragon, but also it just sounds like, oh, that Dragon Filler over there. You mentioned Hellhole. You mentioned... Merxes and Rainies. That's the history. Everyone in the story at this point, the story we were... watching is aware of that history. Yeah. Information that we as viewers have, that they don't, is that we watched Yaron Greyjoy use bigger crossbow to take down Regal because Danny kind of forgot about the Iron

Fleet. Anytime I see a Scorpion now on Thrones, even though Scorpions are part of lots of great sequences like Spoils of War, it just gives me that Yaron Regal PTSD. So I was like... I just mostly blinked out that that happened. I just don't think about it at all. I think about the dramatic reverse. of the scorpion, like in the bowels of King Landing.

So you then got to focus, not on the memories of Yaron and Regal, but instead on being back with Eric, with an A, your least favorite Cargol twin of the two. Actually, he is. Yeah, of course. I mean, how could we not beat Team Eric? Eric was like, I swear to Waltz the Quinn. This is crown, made his way to Dragonstone, and then, just walked into a funeral and made it a coronation.

From Boston. It's possible. Wow. It's possible. Swear to what the king of the harbor. Yeah. Two things. One, an observation, one of a question.

Yeah. The observation. The fact that the scorpion is on the battlements of the red keep, they're prepping for attack at any moment. Great sign. They're ready. They're ready. They're readying.

They're readying for one kind of attack. Yes. Okay. Correct. And they've got the scorpion. Their anti-aircraft missiles are in progress. No equivalent of some sort of security measure at the door of any members of the royal family. Not one single guard on an entire floor of the Reds.

So I know I teased already in the intro, the great coverage on the ringer.com, but that reminds me just as one of specifically, everybody should really take the time to read Riley McAtee's lore breakdown every week. He does a great rundown this week of all of the different alliances. across the map, who's aligned with which, what does it mean for the map, etc. But he did a fascinating little refresher on just how few Kingsguard Egon has right now. Three fucked off to her dragon stuff. Warren and Stefan were already there. Harold's like peace out. Eric swears to warn the queen.

Like it's time to, maybe Kristen should be assigning new members of the Kingsguard rather than fucking Allison. It's just a thought. It's on his list. I'm sure he'll get to it. After a haircut? Okay, so here's my question. They're prepping for attack by dragon. They're like, what's that dragon in the sky with giant obvious holes in it?

So here's my question. Switch to his wings, yeah. Who is more desperately in need of an eye doctor appointment? Yours truly. Or Eric with an A. Eric. Who was basically in his jaws by the time he realized which the oldest and easily largest dragon in the realm.

And the most easily identifiable by the massive holes in his wings. Here's what I would say. The stakes are higher for Eric because if he makes a mistake, then he's like a, you know, flambay, right? Roasted in his armor. I just have seen you squinted things that are right in front of your face. And I love and care for your mother. So I'm going to say you. Oh, ma'am.

Has she emailed you recently? Go to the eye doctor. She's always in my heart. She's always in my heart. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Borshead committed to craft since 1905. Okay. Joe, I have a question for you. Have you seen our son? No. Have you seen new rats? No. The queen. Any notes? Enduring mystery. Any notes on interrupting disturbing his custom? All right. Let's take a moment to talk about Agon. Oh, the dragon cock. The dragon cock. The magnanimous dragon cock.

Okay, so he comes into the nursery. Helena's there, muttering to herself, uncaptioned, very annoying. Thanks so much, HBO. I don't care about everything that Helena is muttering. So please caption every single word. Thank you. Anyway, she's there. She's sewing. She's embroidering golden dragons, but also probably bugs. Let's be real. She's working on next week's opening credits. There's actually a theory. I saw this theory going around that she's like, she's making Deheris's funeral shroud. I mean, that is devastating to contemplate. Also, real gold will be their crowns, gold will be their shrouds, sers, mags, prophecy tie there?

I'm always thinking about maggie the frog. Okay, sers and mags. Okay, my old pal, sers and mags. Okay, so Aegon comes in. The first time I watched it says, like, wow. I want a do-in father. Egon's PR team has gone to the script writers and said, we need a refresh on A-Gon.

Yeah, let's make sure everyone knows that EGon is a girl dad. Oh, wait. Let's make sure that we know that Agon is like, he's just a bro, he's just a guy who wants to be a good guy. And I was a little, like, I was a little jarred. I was like, this feels like a slight retcon on a character, all to make us feel bad for him when the kid, you know, they didn't spend a lot of time showing us Agon the dad. They just had like two scenes and then that kid loses his head. So, I felt a little like, I felt a little like, maybe we could have laid some track for this last season. Then I was just thinking more about it and going back over and rewatching the end of last season.

And you have to think about that moment when Agon gets his crown. Oh, yeah. And the crowd cheers for him. And he's like, oh, is this what affection feels like? Did you hear my shoulders just crack? Good God. Okay. So eye doctor one, dentist two.

Some sort of joint doctor. I don't know what you call. Orthopedist. There you go. Number three. Otolaryngologist. Number four. Okay.

So he's like, oh, is this what? Yeah. Oh, is this what it means to be liked? Because he's, let's be clear, never gotten that from his moldering father and never got it from Allison. What does she say? Don't be an imbecile. Yeah.

When he says, do you love me? Imbecile? She says, yeah, she calls him an imbecile. Like, the moment, the coronation call out is a great one, but even like the, the carriage ride over. Sure, sure. Your father loved you. And he's like, he didn't. He had his entire life to change his mind, and he never did.

And she's like, I got a dagger, baby. She gives him the dagger. His response to that doesn't totally connect because it could just be something that Allison took, which it is. But he's like, oh, okay, this tie to a father who just was not involved in my life. And so, listen, he had a giant Lego to build of old Valeria. I just pour over the plans. The stone masons do all the work. He was busy.

My fellow Lego enthusiast, Viseris Targary, season one, what a time that was this is the stuff, Lyle. It just makes sense to me that Agon would like, be demonstrably different this season because he's like, and like, we'll get to the throne room scene. But so like even here, he's just sort of like, he's just sort of like enervated by this like, I'm in a position, not just a power, but like where I can bask in the affection that I've never received. Yeah. From anyone in my life. Let's be clear. Agon's a piece of shit.

Yes, he did some terrible things that we are not forgiving him for. Yes. Tom Glencarnie is doing a great job. adding some nuance to that terrible person that he is. We are on the same page. It's a lot to kind of parse our feelings to egg on. But I agree with you that ultimately this evolution really does track for me because even just the entrance and the stretch he goes over,

he makes a beeline toward the silver-headed child. And then he's like, oh, wow, he seems really interested in his kid. It's the second he clocks that it's Jehara, not Jehara. he's like, couldn't be less interested, right? So it's not really like Egon the devoted dad. It's Egon the character, the king, who is now thinking, well, what is my legacy? And then specifically choosing to take Jeharis to the small council saying, like, he'll be king.

He needs to start preparing. That's a great idea. The Sarah's never did that for him. Exactly. Not once. No one ever taught him out to be king because he was never supposed to be king. Exactly. Like all the confirmation you need.

By the way, this was not the plan, kid. Reneer was in the small council pouring wine from the jump, you know, like. Cup bear, which despite Renice's ridicule in season one, a position of honor to be by the king's side like that. So, yeah, so he's like, he's like, I'm not going to be building Lego. I'm going to take my, every day is take my boy twin to work day. Well, no longer. Well, sad. Do you think he's going to be take your daughter to work day?

I do not. I do not think that he will be bringing. Jahara to the small council. Egan not knowing where Jeharis's lessons are, the like Endloser. As is custom. There's a way. This is so funny to me.

Tomlin Carney. Absolutely loved it. No, I'm sorry. Evan Darcy is MVP of this episode because of all they accomplish with only one line dialogue. Yeah. But Tomlin Carney is like number two.

I'm excited to talk about the throne room scene with the petitions. Because both in this stretch, bringing Jeharis to the small council, thinking more seriously about what it means. He's failing and lacking in so many respects still. But it's like it's just the switch and the shift from, let me go, I have no wish to rule, no taste for duty. I'm not suited declaration to his brother, Amund, who said, you'll get no argument from me in season one episode nine to I have thoughts on the sheep and the salt. Why don't we give him all his sheep back? It's fine. They won't. They won't know.

Oh, man. What did you make of... They won't know. His whispered, they won't know to Otto. Incredible stuff. Okay, sorry. Otto's like, quick aside on what it means to be king, by the way. So funny. Genuinely great stuff. Speaking of what it means to be king, what did you make of Helena here asking,

what if he does not want to be king about Jahris? Right. Is this connected to this sense of what awaits? Like you? I don't want it. Is it connected to more of the core gender politics of the show? Even like we go back to the Last Supper in episode eight, the way that Helena talked about marriage. A lot of the conversation in the wake of the episode was like, well, wait, from just the fandom,

why did Helena actually make the choice that she made? Why did Helena give up the son, give up, egg on? say all of this stuff feels connected. Well, I think, and it's similar to Allison, because Allison doesn't really care for her sons. Sorry. I never cared for Job. Well, essentially is what Allison says. I don't have cared for Job.

But like, but she cares. That was incredible. But she's very tender about Helena. Yeah, you don't think Allison cares for missing child Darren? Dude, I know we're not in the small castle scene yet, but. when Otto mentioned Ormond and Old Town and the marshalling forces, I was like, here it is, we're about to get it. He's going to say, Darren, aloud. And then he didn't, and my heart fucking sunk.

Okay. Let's look really quickly about the High Tower Targary and children. Because, like, on HBO.com or whatever, when you have the family tree. Yes. Allison's children are Helena. We know her. She's married to her brother. Agon, he's the king.

He has another brother, Amon, he has one eye. So one, two, three. Darren, the fourth child, who has a dragon. Teserian. Is on the family tree.

Yeah. They just have not said his name in the show, but he's there. Unlike Maylor, Helena's other kid, that kid does not exist. Missing from blood and cheese,

which we will talk about. So I just need you guys to know that for two years, my slack icon was Lyman Beesbury on the ringer slack. And over the last month and a half or whatever, it's been Darren question mark on the family tree because that is what is foremost in my mind. I'm holding that hope.

I'm holding that hope. But yeah, I think that I think it's fair to extrapolate that Helena might feel more tenderly towards Jahra the same way that Allison feels more tenderly towards Helena. that the mothers might favor their daughters. And then perhaps she's worried that Jeharis is just going to be another agon, who again, remember, she was like, oh, he's fine. He mostly ignores me unless he's drunk.

Yeah. Not great. Not ideal. Not ideal. Speaking of Helena. And MDD? MDD. MDD.

MDD time. Mini dream dispatch. This one for telling blood and cheese. Steve, can we hear this? I'm afraid. Don't be. There'd be fools to come with Vagar protecting the city. Not the Jackans.

The rats. The queen is an enduring mystery. Is she not? By the way, it's the way he looks around for the rats before he says that. Everyone, the handmaid and tag on, everyone looking around. That was so funny. Of course, this was something we were clocking and tracking throughout season one. Every time we saw a rat in the scene, like a little...

And we initially thought the beast beneath the boards was about blood and cheese. Instead, it was about Reneas exploding through the Dragon Fins, slaying legions of... Hundreds of small folk. Dude, hundreds is jazz. You're right. You're right. I'll join you in saying legions. Legions, it is.

Oh, man. Okay, so how does this stack up to the other MDDs from Helena in season one? Which is... Do you have a favorite? There's a beast beneath the boards. The dragons of flesh, weaving dragons of thread. They'll have to close one eye. Because that was the younger one.

Okay. I think it's he'll have to close one eye. Yeah. Because that was the first one we were like, what? I know. That was actually just like a genuine electric moment. That was great. That was so great.

Right on the eve of Amen. We've talked a lot about like, fantastic. Who is paying into, like, what is the true nature of Helena's dreaming? Yes. And who knows if she's a dreamer? We talked about Viseris. Why didn't her father who was obsessed with this one dream he had? Once again, the Legos don't build themselves.

And the idea of being a dreamer, and I so wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. And I so wanted it to be true to have a vibrant IG Reels presence with all of my Lego sets. Well, you achieved one of those things, you're sorry. You love IG Reels. Most of the world's on TikTok. Mallory is on IG Reels. It's the best. Okay.

My favorite tradition is you'll send me a TikTok, and I'll be like, I saw this. On IG really. On Instagram. We had a ton of emails from listeners about Helena and her dreamers. I thought we might get a rapid-fire multi-con there because you said ton of emails. You never know. You never know what awaits. She wanted legions of cause.

I'm sorry. Okay. So I went on a little, not a deep dive, many dive on like what's the haps here? What's the official word? Fia. I think it's Saban, right? Fia Saban. Sababan.

Fia Sabaabon, Fia Sabin, who plays Helena, in a sort of behind the scenes from season one, said this about her dreaming, the nature of her dreaming. She can feel the future and the past. On a level inside her, she knows things. She can't always literally turn that into advice. So it's like images and flashes and stuff like that. Something we'll talk about a little bit more in the book spoiler section

is on the inside the episode, House of the Dragon Belt, not the short one, but the long one they put on YouTube. They talked about Helena's quarters because Helena is now living in the Queen's quarters where Allison lived. And they talked about all the set deck that they put in there. And there's like cases of bugs, lots of bug stuff. Cages of crickets. Lots of lots of bugs everywhere. But also, there's scribble.

Great stuff. There's like chalk drawings all over the wall. And in her sketchbook, and again, we'll talk about this in the bookspoters section. but they're all like images and we book readers knowing what's coming can decipher what some of those images mean. But if that's how it sort of presents itself to her, often in like sigils. So like animals, there's a lot of animals and crowns and stuff like that. So it's like, for example, this I can talk about, it's a Game of Thrones spoilers, folks. If you see like a stag with a crown, you're like, oh, Robert Barathean, right?

but she just sees like a literal stag with a crown. What does this mean to this poor adult girl? Okay. The follow question is dark twist on our favorite tradition, sigil spotting. Yeah, that's true. The follow question is who knows that she's a dreamer? And this is something that our pals at the History of Westrow's podcast asked Ryan Condole. Incredible.

And he said, someone is paying attention. Dun, dun, dun, done, do. Right? So someone is paying attention. to Helena's dreaming. Who could it be? My number one suspect has to be Laris. Who else is paying any attention to Helena? Yeah. He's also like, is that a foot? Is it one of those drawings of foot? Is that the rat I work into? That was a good time in season one. That stretch of theorizing. Great theory time. But yeah, what if Laris figures out

that Helena's a dreamer? And Allison maybe is the only other person who's like paying any attention to Elena. So, okay, this was something that I was really thinking back on in season one in the, you know, the fabled bug stretch. It is beyond our understanding. That's what Helena said. And Allison's response was, I suppose you're right, some things just are. And so Allison's, not that this couldn't change, but at least what we've seen so far, the way that Allison's receives these tendencies from Helena is like, I don't really get it. Yeah. I love you, but I don't really get you. not like, do you want to talk about what's going on? And it's just so, it is so deeply tragic because it does connect to this larger idea of what these characters who are a part of a, it's a story about a family that's tearing itself apart.

Oh, God. Like, are never, so why the Vesaris never may be talking about this with his actual daughter. Like, is so devastating to consider. And we have no reason to believe that he ever clocked it or discussed it with her. And it's like, what could have been different if maybe he had? It's just, it's, it is really like deeply, deeply, deeply, tragic. On that is Laris paying attention to Helena Front.

Yeah. I'm going to zoom ahead to my favorite theory. Okay. Unsubstantiated theory. We know that Laris has replaced all of Allison's attendees, attendance. Yeah. Makes bath time tough. Yeah.

Has he done that for Helena as well? Mm. Because we see, there's this, a lot of people have pointed her out because she's just these incredibly striking eyebrows. Yeah. She looks like Bella Baxter from poor things. Like 100%. And that's just what that woman looks like.

She's a model. Her name is Shane Stevenson. Incredibly. Like her just magnetic. So distinctive. Like more so than our favorite character to Lisa last season, right? And so like if Laris has employed good old eyebrows. Yeah.

And I say that with a compliment because I love her eyebrows. And also like she's the one in the room with blood and like just. And vanishes. Pieces out. Deeply suspicious? Vanishes. Like she knows back alleyways or whatever. And then like a seven-minute conversation

unfolds and she does not appear again? Does I learn anyone? Okay, so eyebrows. So if Lairz put eyebrows, and again, I say that with full compliment, I love her eyebrows. If he, because she doesn't have a character name, I looked high and low. I would call her by her name if I could,

but if I could find it. Anyway, if Lairis put eyebrows in Holiness Room, then, you know. she might be like, hey, do you want to see her notebooks? She's drawn some stuff. She keeps mentioning. Would you like to see the walls? Oh, poor Helena.

Yeah, Laris. You know, he's got eyes everywhere. So that's just like, based on nothing other than distinctive eyebrows. I love it. And that very suspicious, like, blood encounter. She just poofs. She's gone. Yeah.

Now, I mean, maybe that's a normal human response. But like, he looks away for a second and then she's just gone and she's gone and she's nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying. Unless she's like there would simply never be a rat catcher up in these quarters of this hour. And she just does say like, I'm not supposed to go up there. It's different rat catchers.

Maybe she knows them all and she's like something's up. But then she doesn't go tell anyone. Well, what I love about that is that like blood can't, doesn't know how to set a trap. So he's like, oh, yeah. She's like, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. Yeah, for the. He's never eaten a piece of man. Chego in his life. He doesn't know.

Okay. It is time to talk about a genuinely crucial scene. This was my, had the time of my fucking life doing Talk the Thrones with you and Chris again. I sent you guys like 500 text messages after we finish. It was like, we've got to go back and record again. We didn't talk about Kristen and Allison and Donop. And I've spent the ensuing a couple days, like, waiting to talk about this with you. First of all, because it is just like, titillating and wonderful? Is it because I sent you a meme at 1155 last night? This killed me.

Oh my God. That was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. That was just absolutely exceptional, wonderful stuff. Do you want to describe it for the people? It's Orhill and Fran warging. And then Allison also with like her eyes rolled back. They're all looking up as they did when they would warg. They would warg and their eyes would go white.

So it's like the overhead shot of Olivia Cook with her eyes rolled back in her head. And it's like, ooh, Allison's a work too? Yeah. Instead of warging into a wolf, she's connecting to a piece of human garbage, Kristen Cole. God, he's stonish. Donish. Okay. So this is, on the one hand, kind of like a holy shit moment because this relationship is not confirmed canon.

So this is new. Not even like really speculated. No. Not in the book, though this was going to be. to be what I asked you is like, was this just a pure, oh my God, what a shock moment for you? Or were you like, you know what? It felt like they were building toward this in season one because the Gatsy's Dornish initial response from young Allison didn't like Kristen Cole, handsome guy, piece of garbage,

but handsome guy. I mean, what we're going to talk about, the Rainera, the parting of the ways in a moment here. but from the moment where Allison stops Kristen from killing himself and he is then in her employee, in her camp, her sworn shield, team green all the way.

There's the moment where he sees Laris staring at her and is like, he won't stop looking just like a jealousy. Yes. And one that feels just perfectly connected to Kristen Cole as a jealous guy, but also like, and there's a possessive quality to it,

but also it was like, oh, does he have a deeper feeling? And then, of course, there is the moment where Alicent leans leans into him and is like, everything you feel for me as your queen. So there are some breadcrumbs laid here. Absolutely. Kristen Cole, Allison leaning back and digging her nails

into the void of a chair as Kristen Cole goes down on her was new. And boy, was this something. We see Alicent before we realize it's Kristen. Did you immediately know it was him? Yes. P.S. Because I hate him. And I knew, no, wait, okay.

So Lauren, we got an email from Lauren. And I should just say, Lauren's email, nothing in the email has to do with this. She just titled her email, Kristen Cole's new hat. Good strategy. Good strategy. And his new hat would be Allison's vagina. Correct.

I do think there have been breadcrumbs. Olivia Cook said an interview that there were some, like, other longing looks from season one that were cut. And we got several emails speculating. You asked for it. I did. You got it.

Yeah, this is a story in many ways about tempting things. Be careful what you wish for. Okay. So, how long have they been doing it? And a lot of people were speculating, well, where was Kristen Cole when Luke took a I mean's eye out. And Viseris asked him. He's like, excuse me, where were you?

And Kristen being the piece of shit that he's like, well, we never thought we had to guard princes from princes. He's an absolute piece of shit in that scene. And it's like, again, have you heard of Megor the Cruel? But Olivia Cook said that this, the official word from Olivia Cook is that this only started up after Vassar's side. This is honestly, you don't believe it? That feels right to me.

Oh, yes. No, no. I believe it. But I would say three days after, like quickly. Great stuff. It's only been in a few days, right? I remember Taiwan and Circe discussing the appropriate amount of time before a new marriage? It's like a fortnight would be, that would be fine.

Allison's like, as long as we can no longer smell the stench of his bloated rotting corpse. Let's get down, my man. Okay, but that takes a while to clear. It's true. And he stuck because they were keeping him secret for a while. And they don't have my soul. Like, no. No, they don't.

I think this is definitely. post-Visaris, but the fact that it happened so quickly, you're right, because only a few days have passed, it's like, and so this is... And we're already at, this can't happen again. Yes. So they've been doing it. I mean, that doesn't last long. That pledge. Sure, no. That pledge. So,

a couple things here. On the Allison front, I want to talk about Kristen's hypocrisy in a second, but in the Allison front, I will say, we would like more for her than Kristen, but it is, I was like, get it, girl. Oh, no, no, I want this for Allison's. Yeah, her relationship to sex. in the story that we've seen so far. I would have loved this for Alicent from the jump.

Yeah. She can actually find joy and pleasure. It's not, oh, but it's Chris and Cole. It's except she made Reneer's life a living hell. This is the thing. For the same thing. Yes, the judgment. She endangered those boys.

Like she, like, you know, like embarrassed, made their lives live in. Like, all the shit that she did around Reneira's absolutely consensual. I married a gay man. He's got a boyfriend. I have a really nice, really nice guy who's now dead, thanks to Laris. They had an arrangement, a polycule. They were an American family, okay? They had just like, figured it all out. They were hurting no one. And Allison decided to make it her and everyone else's problem. And Kristen's like, Ribera, that spider, that slut, that war, you know? Even before that. Like, like, I was. Like, The way that Allison responds to the murmurs that Renira and Damon had gone to the bows of a pleasure to end, like the judgment. We talked about that a lot because part of what made episode four so effective in season one was you do feel for Allison because you see that Renira is taking her pleasure and

Allison is literally pinned down by duty. Yes. Is that what we're calling Miss Harris now? By the festering flesh sack embodiment of duty. Yeah. And like they had. a version of love in their marriage, but she wasn't finding pleasure in it in that way. And so for her to get that here is nice, but I agree with you, the hypocrisy from Allison is palpable.

And then, speaking of hypocrisy is worse for Kristen. This is just, like, absolutely beyond the pale. Kristen and Renair sleep together in episode four. Very dramatic sequence where he's, like, folding his white cloak, putting it aside at war with himself. There's more on themselves over what to do. And then in episode five... And listen, I have a lot of... There was all this conversation around the time

where it's like... Could Kristen even say no in that circumstance? And I agree with, like, plenty of that. Absolutely. There's a fucked-up situation for Kristen to find himself in. And then... And then in the next episode, he goes to her in the wee hours of the morning. It's like, you're up to, got to pitch for you.

Oranges. Orches. Spices. Cinnamon? Leave your name, your crown, your birth, right? family and your kingdom behind and come marry me across the narrow sea. And when she's like, I am the crown my guy, but we can keep fucking, he wails and screams and cries and says, I took an oath as a knight of your king's guard, an oath of chastity,

I've broken it, I've soiled my white cloak, it is the only thing I have to my fucking name. And then he's going down on Allison's the Dowager Queen. She says we shouldn't do this again and he's like, I'll be back tonight. Can you just pin this white cloak on in the meantime? Can you just hook this on me? Thanks. This piece of shit. Kristen believes, and I just need this to be underlined, Kristen believes that every woman is an image of the mother to be spoken up with reverence. One of the best moments of season one in my least favorite episode of season one, because that line is iconic. And of course, the line that leads to that reply is amends for counting. Acon's gifting him this first trip to the street of silk. And then he's like, said time to get it wet.

And Thrones. To be very clear. Yeah. Chris is wearing that fucking hat throughout the whole thing. Great stuff. Allison and Kristen, that conversation where he calls Reneira a spoiled cunt. And then Allison looks at him. And he goes, that was beneath me or grace.

I apologize. And she says, I have to believe that in the end honor and decency will prevail. We need to hue to that and to each other. But like, indeed. They're doing to each other. We're better than Reneura. Right. We're more pious.

You know, we would never sully ourselves and sully our names. And here we are, season two, episode one. Again, I want Alicent to have whatever she wants sexually. Same. It's the hypocrisy. This is making me absolutely. This is what she says about Reneer. She expects everyone in the red keep to deny the truth our eyes can plainly see in the king,

father he knows. Of course he knows, or did once, but has convinced himself otherwise. He'll do not but make excuses for her. The Princess Reneer is brazen, relentless. Oh, no, that's when, that's when Cole says. The Prince Reneer is brazen and relentless. Spider. He loves calling her a spider. We'll do it again in this episode. Let it go, Kristen. Anyway, I just, I have a lot of empathy for Allison. I have very little empathy for Kristen Cole. And this just boiled my blood. But again, I'm like, I'm pro-sex. I want Allison to have this. Same. Same. And again, dramatically, it's incredibly rich. Should we go to the small council chamber? Should we follow Allison and Kristen into this chamber together?

One last thing. Her putting the cloak back on him. By the way. Yes. Yeah. Helena has... Like a clip on tie. Yeah. There's a little hooks. I liked it. Helena has moved into Allison's room. That means Allison has moved into. Renira's room. Yeah, Kristen's like, I've been here before. We're going to talk about that a little. I mean, when they fuck in the bed. Yes.

It's not just, it's the same bed. I looked, I went back and looked, because remember when Allison was sleeping in Emma's bed, Emma's bed where she, like, miscarried, like died, essentially, and they couldn't get Allison a new bed? Yep. I have notes again that she has moved in Renera's room and she's sleeping in, it's the same headboard bedpost. It's the exact same bedpost.

It's the exact same bed. They needed Tyrion Lannister at this time because, like, the moment he got to the tower of the hand, he was like, Ned Stark slept on this? Absolutely not. Not a night. Not to one. Mary a one. But it made me think about Allison, in terms of Allison dressing someone she cares for in that room, she dresses Renera in season one episode one before she's named the air. in that room.

So the people can then do obese. I'm so sorry. You gave me so many opportunities. Say it. Say it. Do obeisance. Obeasance. Okay.

That a great word. All right. Joe. Small counsel. We're following Allison and Kristen into the small council chamber. Do you think anyone's going to notice that we're all arriving together? This is a literal text message. which I got from our friend Kim Remphro when she watched this screeners.

Shout out, Kim. The best. Love Kim. The best. She says, do you think Otto smelled Allison on Kristen when they walked in? And when you rewatch that scene with that in your head, it's like, he is, I believe he is quafting something. So we briefly talked about, you made a, you made a reference on Talk the Thrones to

this. It was an important thing to get on the record on night one. The Midnight Boys had a length of. lengthy and riveting discussion about post-coital hygiene. It's difficult for me in moments like this not to think of our dearly departed Roz and her Vaj Bowl, you know, a little splash after her dalliance with Picell. Okay. I noticed this as well. Like they're changing, but Kristen's not like... He doesn't give a rinse. Let me just rinse. Just a rinse. Pass the listerine. Yeah. Anyone have any gum? They have no lysol or listerine. But he can at least splash.

Some water. Oh, man. Yeah. Or like spray some perfume to try to like mask it. Everybody in Westroles smells, right? Yeah, but. But the Royals, you know, again, like there's a bath in this episode, a lot of bath time in general. But Kristen, he's in the armor.

I bet you there's like a pretty rank, rick aroma coming from inside the shell. I don't know. I don't know if Otto would clock it, but it does seem to be the collective response that he's like. Because yeah, you weren't, you didn't think that Otto had. No, though, after you mentioned it, I was looking for it. He's definitely like. Yeah. Though I just in real time read that as Otto's like, why can't people show up on time for my meetings? Also a strong possibility. But just because, like, Kristen is Allison's sworn shield.

So the fact that they would be together is actually not remarkable. Correct. But if they've got like tousled hair and a special aroma. A gleam. All right. Oh, man. Okay. Okay.

So I have a question for you and it's an important one. And I want you to consider it in a way that is worthy of Beesbury's memory. Would you, a member of the Green Council, keep the small balls on the council table after Kristen Cole basically just pushed Lyman's head down and the ball went through his temple like a butter knife through a hot knife or butter. Through a like cantalope that had been out in the sun too long. Wouldn't you just get these out of here? First of all.

Please do not besmirch my guy, Lyme and Beesbury, by comparing his head to a overripe cantaloupe. Genuinely, one of the best parts about rewatching season one. Everyone with Bees is just something to cherish and adorcious. But that end stretch where he's like chiming in a few minutes late on everything, and they're just so mean to him. But then when the moment counts, he gets up and he's like, I, there's a seizure. Did you notice? Did you notice in the, I'm sure you did. You notice everything.

In the tapestry in the opening credits. Love it. They have sigils listed on like each side team green, team black. Beesbury's firmly on team black because let's be clear. Lyman may be dead, but that's not the end of house Beesbury. No, it's not. No. Okay.

Not only would. I don't think they should have small balls on their table. I think maybe we should have them on Talk the Thames. Oh, yeah. Actually, Dave Gonzalez is like, why don't you guys have the small council balls? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, oh, I'm sorry. I live in Colorado where, like, gemstone balls are like a dime on the street corner.

He offered to get us. Dave, he'll ship him over? Okay. I love it. Yeah. Who is going to be the first one to suffer some sort of grievous injury on set? And, okay, well, we know the answer. It's me.

What episode? Yeah, I gave you two episode four for you and drew yourself. It might be that they arrived in episode three, so it doesn't last very long. It's like probably too late for them to get here for episode two. Let's be real. You're going to slip on like your dropped chapstick or like an errant Kleenex that you've left on the floor and then it's all over. I need everybody to know quickly what true friendship is. Before we recorded, I dropped my chapstick open.

It's in the bathroom floor at the office. That's going to be burned later. And I was like actually. all the way across the floor under the sink. And I was actually in like a state of panic because you were having a full blow. I was like, I can't do the pod. Yeah. Steve was like, who can go on a run like a Walgreens or something?

Yeah. Joanna had a spare chapstick and she gave it to me. And now we have matching chapsticks. And I find that charming. All right. Oh, boy. Should we do a quick, small council lineup refresher? Refresh us, please.

Okay. Hand of the King on Ohio. Tower. Aviano loveds. Jasper, Ironrod, Wild. For the thickness of his member. Master of Laws.

Or the rigidity of his legal stance. Either. This is canon. Thank you for keeping Beesbury alive. Do you think that Jasper gave himself that nickname Ironrod? I think he did. Okay.

Without question. Grandmaster Orwell. Yep. Pretty good, dude. All things considered. Of all the people on the council, I like him most, Thailand, Landister.

Incredible scene for Thailand. Just an incredible scene for Thailand. No time for amusement's Thailand. All right. So Thailand, Lanister, Master Coin, his brother, Jason tried to propose to Reneer, and he's. Yeah, he of the honey wine. Lord of Cashly Rock. Okay.

Allison to the Dowager Queen. We shouldn't really have a seat, but I support her having a seat, but I'm saying that's not a seat that's usually given. And then Lord Commander Christian Cole watching over. Yep. And then Amon's. Amon shows up and Allison's like, please leave. Why are you here? You were not invited.

You don't have a ball. What are you doing here? They don't yet have. Master of Ships. Some discussion in this episode about this very thing. No Master of Whispers either. And that's something that people get confused by because in the book, at this point in the book is Lair's master of whispers? I think he is.

And in the show, he's just the Lord Confessor. Confessor. Yeah. So let me tell you about all the people who I killed because they've, trade us. They don't have a master of voice plays right now. Egon is too distracted

by his darling little son Jay Harris. As we repeatedly mentioned in the preview pods, six in the book, only four in the show, according to Condal. Yeah. Part of why Maylor apparently couldn't make it. Does that make it? Because

if you recall it our preview pods, Mallory's like, children die old. No. I was six years old. He lived a rich life. I was just parsing the word baby a little bit. He's six. If he's four, is he a baby?

I don't know. He was walking. He goes to school. He's got his customs that could be interrupted. So. So for the record. I'm not saying it's okay to kill him four years. That is not what I'm saying. That is not what I'm saying. A foul act. A vile act.

But like, isn't a baby like one? That's all. I agree six is a little too old to say baby, but I've heard like certain people refer to like... Four-year-olds as babies? Yeah. Okay. Sure. I don't have children. So I'm sure it's quite apparent. Right now is still your baby. That's true. He is my beautiful baby boy. Okay. So Egonne, speaking of beautiful baby boys, just wants to be. bring Jeharis here, in theory, to train him to be king, but really just so they can fuck around. Jeharis steals Tylen's little small ball. He's playing with him. Thailand's pissed.

Egon's like, it's the heir to the Iron Throne bothering you. The look? Jefferson Hall. Dude, amazing scene. The look, when he suggests, when Egan suggests the pony ride and Thailand's like, yeah, and he's like, seriously. There was just that little moment of venom there. Like, oh, no, I actually am in control.

Don't forget a free for a second. That. was a joffrey. Oh, yes. Yeah. Oh, yes. No time for amusements. Dylan.

Steve, we need to add that to the soundboard so that every time we're running along, you just come in with no time for amusement. Yeah, if we do like a, if we do a chapstick, like a lip balm. It's great news. When Steve's looking at the runtime later and he's like, what can I cut? It's just like 45 seconds on chapstick. That part where they- And now ten more when we're talking about it again. That part where they touched their.

chopsticks to each other. No free ads. No free ads. Yeah, blur out the brand. Yeah, blur out the brand. So they're going through potential allies. Amen and Kristen later will have their map, which they're using coins on, real, like, rich kids stuff from Amon. He's just use my money to Mark.

But Otto has his, he's pulled in the dry race board. Okay. They spent a lot of time on this on the House of Dragons built video where the woman who made it, she was like, I wanted this on the table. Let's be clear. I wanted this horizontal on the table. Ryan Condal was saying, too many of our maps are down on the table. I don't feel like you can get the full scope. He's like, I kind of wanted more of like a World War II sort of like war map on the wall so people get a better sense of the geography. And it's true because like the painted table, as cool as it is, I don't think looking at it, you get a great sense

of the geography. No, your main marker for the geography is you're like, your main marker for the geographies. You're like, right, which castle did Stannis and Melisandra fuck on top of? Yeah. Okay. Now I have my bearings. That's it. But yeah, it's supposed to be made of ivory, sections of ivory. So like,

why don't, can we get a whiteboard made of, not of ivory? I don't believe of that. Careful. Yeah. Careful. But in like fake ivory. Is Mother Pearl something we can do? Is that? Sure. Probably that's bad too. Okay. never mind. Let's just stick with a regular track. We'll just use Google Docs.

Okay. So, imagine how much ivory we would need for your show notes. Oh, man. Oh, my goodness. We wouldn't. We wouldn't. We wouldn't. So, they're going through the rosters here, right? Who has aligned with which side?

Choose a side. No reply from Renair, a shocker. It's not going well. This effort to repair the realm. thwarted. Ironrod Lippy. Too much feedback in this scene. An apology for her dead son. Let's just remind everyone that in season one episode nine,

Allison said to Ironrod, one more word and I will have you removed from the chamber and sent to the wall. Seems like he really heated that, got the message. Allison, you don't follow through on your threats or else they're just empty. Yeah. You think he should be, words are wind. Yeah, you think he should just be like,

like meeting up with Craig's kin up there. That guy with a bull cut. Right in the winch. Yeah. Oh, boy, that haircut. Sheesh. Okay. Rapid fire through.

Remember when Tyrion said Janus lent to the wall? Remember Janos' final moments? Man. Game with us. He's always been a third. Sam saying he found Janos in a puddle of his own making was one of my favorite moments. Truly great. I don't ever be laughed.

They all chuckled. Okay. No reply from the Vailer in the North. We know why. J. Scott him. Jace. Cones. Sorry.

That's a quote. I don't use that word. Oh, man. Before we did talk to Therons, Chris was like, is it okay to say this if we're like quoting?

And then I think he maybe said it once and we've definitely said it like 47 times. No, but he was like, is it better? Okay, Chris said, is it better if I say cunts with air quotes? Yeah. And you and I were both like, that's worse. Get the fingers out of it.

It's way worse. They think they have storms out. Okay. Not a surprise to us after what we saw with Boros at the end, but Amund, Flores, betrothed. This is, we can't overstate what a colossal loss this is for the blacks. And this was a big conversation for us at the end of season one. Like, Reneira not tending to, squandering, the alliances that were taken for granted. Like, the Barathean are kin to Reneas. Renis is on Reneira's side.

When Reneera went on her. It's a bad loss. When Rear went on her engagement tour. She made enemies of a lot of people, including Boris Barthin, who can't read, I think. Anyway. Jason Lannister, amassing forces in the West. As you noted, Golden Tooth gets a shout out here. So the fact that this was specifically mentioned felt intentional.

Key position. This is the easternmost point of the Westerlands. So it's like between the Westerlands and the Riverlands. This is a key strategic position. But also, when we were breaking down the trailers, we're like, what is this? other light stone tan structure that doesn't seem to be the other thing that we talked about a lot in those trailer breakdowns, this is it. Hearing it here, I was like, oh, that's got to be what that is.

That was something we thought it might be. You were on the golden tooth beat early. There were Lannister soldiers around. Yeah, yeah. Ormond, martialing forces from Old Town, as mentioned. I have to hope and pray that while Darren couldn't rate a mention here, our guy, Freddie Fox, Gawain Hightower will be with Ormond when we... Didn't he say he was sallying forth?

How long does it take for one to sally? Great question. Great question. Fourth or otherwise. Dalton Gradyoy. The Red Cracken? The Red Cracken. Wonderful stuff.

I'm sure this will be fine. What could go wrong? And then Egon wants to fly to River Run. And we would just be remiss now and always if we did not take a quick opportunity to mention that at this moment, the tullies of... River Run. Grover? Elmo? Eventually? These characters are named after Muppets. Muppets. And they're hoping that they'll do O'Basance. Is that what you're saying? That's a big word for Elmo. Wonderful stuff. O'Basins, yeah. Literally Grover, Elmo and

Kermin. Sensational. George. The best. Really on one. Okay. So, Joe, we didn't love episode nine of season one, but we did like the fissures inside of the Green Council, seeing the tension inside of one side, like one faction. That is very apparent here as well. Nobody's on the same page. They're bickering over mishandling Reneer. They're arguing over the blockade's impact on Kings Landing. Egonne, now wishes that they had killed Reneira. And that was like basically the only thing that the great race to find Egon in the penultimate episode. Hingon, which was Allison getting the opportunity to say to him first, don't kill her. The side eye that auto casts at Allison, which will be the part of what prompts their conversation later about how to get along in front of other people, he's like, it's too late.

We must play the board before us. And then as we talked about, Allison doesn't want Amon here. But Agonne does. Amid is my closest blood and our best sword. I welcome him. I wanted to ask you how you. He's my hound. loyal.

Loyal. How this reception for Amon struck you, because Allison makes a remark at the table about it, right? Retribution for the death of her son and kind of glares over at Amad. But broadly, there's like kind of a hand wave inside of Team Green. Otto says errors were made. That's how he sums this up. Elspira. The Capriese.

Which is just insane. Yeah. In fire and blood, here's the passage. Yeah. Amon Targaryen, who would henceforth be known as Amend the kinslayer to his foes. Wow. A curse is rough. No, man, this is a curse, I've heard.

Return to King's Landing, having won the support of Storm's End for his brother Agon and the undying enmity of Queen Reneer. If he thought to receive a hero's welcome, he was disappointed. Queen Allison went pale when she heard what he had done, crying, Mother, have mercy on us all. Nor was Sir Audub. pleased. You only lost one eye, he is reported to have said, how could you be so blind? Now, we talk all the time about the unreliable narrator, nature, fire, and blood. So, like,

there was no reason to expect that it would go exactly this way. But you and Mitchell, in an interview, had, had, to entertain him a weekly, had said, Amen's going to come back and he has a choice. He can either look the fool or he can pretend that he meant to do this, that it was an intentional active violence or aggression or whatever. And he implied in that in that interview that, like, he would be. So I actually wonder, it's either something that we're going to see later or if there was a scene that was cut. Interesting.

You know, maybe there was a scene that was cut where we got the actual fallout with, like, Allison and Otto and Amid. But yeah, here it seems like, there's his line later from your favorite character, Masaria, who says, frankly, how dare you? to Damon, you're like, Mayor of the Cruel, I'll own. Masaria. No. Masaria says to Damon, you only blame me.

Well, she doesn't say it like that, but, you know, she says, you only blame me because your true enemies are out of reach. This is just like, this is what's true. This is what Damon is doing when he's like, Radies, it's your fault that this happened. It's Reneer's fault because she's not here, you know, casting about for people to blame. And then meanwhile on Team Gris. green everyone. Like that small council scene is such a feast because Allison's like passive aggressive comment,

look at Aben. And autos are like, autos like mistakes were made in the aftermath and looks at Allison. You know, we're just like casting blame around wherever we can. Yeah. Because we can't actually like reach. And this is these fissures, I want to do a signs and portents things.

Fissures and fragments inside of these very team black and team green is part of the the story that we're going to see going forward because, yes, we're in a civil war inside of a family, but inside those factions are further fracturing. And that's the most interesting part, ultimately. If everybody in Team Green and Team Black is aligned and they're just battling each other, they're just at odds with each other, that's not necessarily that dramatically compelling. When they're at war with each other and at war with themselves, and we get these delicious foils and dark mirrors or direct mirrors of each other, then that's riveting. So, A, in this stretch talking about Heron Hill, talking about how crucial the Riverlands are,

not just making the same pitch that Damon made back in the season one finale and continues to make, but literally using the same words. Literally using the same language to hold. We got that from Damon in the finale. Damon uses it again in this episode. Amen says it here. They've been circling each other. Oh, man.

I love this. In season one, episode eight in the throne room when they're just sort of like looking at each other. And it's like pretty sure Damon's like, did you still? I look? I'm the Legolas hair guy. Why do you think you're also the legal ass hair guy? I feel like Amund could just reply. You had a lot of different wigs and see someone. It's hard to keep track. You don't get to just claim this one. You just keep changing your hair. It's hard to keep track. Dragon Math. Yes. We love Dragon Math. Another tie, of course, but not just between Amund and Damon. This is really an Egon and Amid tied to Damon because

like the dudes want to go to war. That's really the key. Absolutely. Alicent is in the Reneira position in this episode. We heard in the finale, Renera really cautioning restraints we already talked about. Alicent is the one here who says Reneera has dragons as well. It's that old, the other minister like the other side can do magic too. Yeah. Idea, right? And mine are bigger.

Yeah, I have some questions about Egon saying mine are bigger. Like, yeah, bigger is bigger. Yes. But if I were Egan, I'd be putting a little more stock into the numbers that the other side. But we love a dragon math. Yeah. So the dragon math scenario on Team Green is that they have Sunfire, which is Agon's dragon.

Helena has a dragon, but we've yet to see it. And we don't think we're probably... Shout out Dreamfire. Ever going to see Dreamfire because Helena is quite traumatized from blood and cheese, right? So, Vagar. Vigar. Huge. And Darren.

I mean, this is part of why Tissarian and Darren not being in the story is just genuinely so confounding. Without getting into any of the particulars, like a whole dragon being off the board. It's really tied their hands any time that they talk about dragon math on Team Green for them not to say, oh, when we have another dragon.

Yeah. Yes. Let's see the Blue Queen. Somewhere. And in a different part of the world right now where you could have then that, like, strength. Another toe hold. Another toe hold. It's a very strange,

since things we're going to leave out. I did notice just while we're doing Dragon Math here that, well, I thought I noticed. I'm not sure if this is confirmed, but it seemed under the beds, under the twins' beds, that they had the dragon egg ovens? This is another frantic text we received from Mallory. I forgot to say. Egg in the cradle is a dark family tradition, but it did look like they still had.

Sorry if I just blew up the mic on the firenaces. Now, the kids being younger, I guess, could align with this, but does that mean that Chirikos and Morgle aren't? Probably. And this is Dori? Probably. All right. Okay, so Allison's like, hey, Kristen, you're good for a lot of things.

Yeah. But in this moment, can you please stop my idiot son for being such an idiot. Let's use that tongue to do some talking, mind you. And like, Kristen, Agon is so easily pushed and pulled in one direction or another. And so Kristen using like the old, you're the king, you can't go. Yeah, this is what Otto did to Vassaris when he wanted him to not go to Dragonstone. Yeah. It's pretty funny.

Laris. Take it away. Love of my life. I'm thrilled for you. Absolute piece of fit. Thrill for you. Couple fascinating scenes of Laris just overtly manipulating other people in this episode. So he's waiting for Allison after the small council.

Dude. Your handmaid and said you were indisposed. Your handmaid and said that Kristen was bringing you to climax. I looked for you with a truck. Oh my God. That made me laugh so hard. I saw on the notes. Anyway, so Alicent, already at the end of last season, Allison was like, I would rather not with this. Yeah, it's a lot. And now he knows that he's been like very much replaced by,

like, he knows about Kristen. Oh, definitely. 100% knows. No doubt. Absolutely. So, so he says that he's gotten rid of all the people in the household. who were spies. I've rooted out the spies. I've gotten rid of them. And that means my friend and yours, Talia, RIP. Who, if our listeners can't remember, was a redheaded, redheaded serving woman who was Masaria's agent inside the castle. Yes. And also Miguel Sopachnik's wife. Yes. And we're pretty sure it was only in the show so that Miguel Svotchnik's wife could be in the show. Anyway, she's killed off screen, along with Hobart Hightower. Tough. By Talia. By Tbilia.

And Laris's gone ahead and replaced every single one of Allison's, you know, people with his own people. Yep. Great. Terrifying. She then has to immediately dismiss them all from bathing her. Yes. Now, I would not want Laris's spies bathing me either. But it does, it raises a couple things.

One, on the thematic front, it just heightens again how alone Allison is. Like, she has Kristen for some. stuff. But, you know, when Viseras... Her vague bug daughter. Sweet Helena. Yeah. When Viseras sent all of his bathing assistants away,

Alicent was there to tend to him. Even though that was probably not how she would have ideally been spending her time, right? So, sore dabbing. Nobody's here to help Alicent. And, you know, it makes us think of that connected to Laris that really unvarnished moment of truth where she was like, in all of that. King's Landing, is there no one to take my side?

This is after her dad had been sent away. And even now, her dad's back and her dad is, what, undermining her at that table of men. Cut in the mouth. Okay, we got this interesting email from Alex because Chris, Chris is really focused on the scrubbing of the shoulder. And we talked about this. We had our, you were talking about the visceralis callback. I was talking about Laris replacing all their handmaids. But I really like this email from Alex who said, when Alice began obsessively cleaning her arm, It took me back to season one and her picking her nails. And those interactions then with Otto and his disappointment in her.

The repetitive cleaning made me think all of this time, Alison has been masking her anxiety, OCD or whatever Westerosi doctors would call it and doing so in a way her father couldn't tell. She used to pick at her fingers until they bled. Yeah. Yeah. As a like a manifestation of her anxiety. And then when he would see it, you would be like, you're the most comely girl at court. Right. Why do you destroy yourself instead of being like, are you okay? Right. And so this is like her, like, I'm sure I'm actually very confident.

She did that to her entire body, but, like, the, like, repetitive scrubbing. They're, like, I think we got another email from what we did. We got another from a listener who did a Lady Macbeth sort of out-out, damn spot sort of comp, for sure. But I like that callback to the nails. And this is, like, compulsive Allison behavior. That's a great call. Great email. From Allison to Renira?

Yeah. Reneer finds, the story would say, the cloak of her dead sun and the proof that in fact Luceris is dead. My read on it is we saw poor Aerex's shredded gnarled wing and I wept. I wept. Joe, a moment quickly. Yeah. Just of

congratulations to your co-host and our pal, Dave Gonzalez, because we got a dragon dismount. Oh my God. I mean, you guys are going to talk about this on trial. We got two. Rainies also gets off at the dragon dock. They have like a docking scenario. Yeah.

Is this, are you happy this is here? I mean, it wasn't the best visual effect we've ever seen on the show. Though the behind the scenes did show them doing this practically with a stunt woman. So like they did, you know, try to make it look as real as possible. Not our best visual effect, but like, yeah, Dave, if you guys aren't, if you're listening to this and you're not trial by content listeners, Dave was harping on this all season one where he was like, they'd show them landing and then they would cut away and then the person would be on the ground. He's like, show me a dragon dismount you cowards. We did see DeNaris do this on Thrones.

She sort of like did a walk down a leg or whatever. This was a leaping dismount. But she was in Ari. Yeah, absolutely. This is very sad because not only does Renair now know that her kid is dead and she's weeping, but Syrac's cries out. Our listener, Ian, was asking if Syrax is ARAX's mother, this is a really fun theory. There's no confirmation one way or another, but it is plausible. Cyrax had a clutch of eggs.

Clutch of eggs. Yeah. So it's definitely possible. And even if that's not the case, which I like to think about that possibility, even if it's not the case, it's like one more moment where that connection between Dragon and Ryder, between Renera and Syrax and more broadly Dragon and Rider is just like reinforced for us. We think back to the stillbirth. The cuts from Rainira, crying to Syracs. But also season one, episode one, at her mother's funeral. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When Syrac is there,

Drakaris and Sarah. Dercaris. Very dramatic. Drakaris. Yeah. That was a dramatic circumstance. Okay, Joe, egg on the magnanimous, we'll see you now. Do you know what magnanimus means? Nobody knows what magnanimous means. Well, I do. That was so funny. We did get an email from listener Brad who attached the screenshot of the Google trends on Magnanimus, and there was a huge spike in the Google search for what Magnanimus meant after this episode, which is great. Great stuff. Are you digging, you dig in Agon Spros?

The Heralds? This is what we need when we come into the studio. We need, like, the, the, the, like, Steve, can you just start on the, yeah? We need Steve and John and Juna to, like, follow us in and just say titles, titles, titles. So I love that you called out the AIM and Damon parallel of literally saying the same word, the toehold and Herald and Hall. The two entrances of the monarchs because we get this Agon entrance with his bros, which we'll talk about in the second, titles, titles, titles. Renier gets the same titles, same titles, titles. Yes.

When she walks in. Yes. But she's just like storming in. And this is when she's about to say her one line. But she, but like the camera follows her in to, you know, the Paine Stable and the Council and stuff like that. But I just like, I love the contrast of the two. There's a herald like saying, you know, Lady of the Roynar, like all this or stuff. The other contrast that really struck me is, of course, like when we last saw a Targaryen king walking into the throne room, it's Vassaris's long long.

And it is striking. Like the speed and vigor with which Egon makes. his way toward the throne, walking right past the statue of Vassaris the Peaceful as his legacy crumbles in real time. Like that was little things like that to show those really well, I think. Do you have-grows? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Martin Rain.

Uh-huh. Yeah, you love a rain. We clocked that sigil in the trailer. Oh, yeah. That was fun. The reign of Casimir Red Line. Martin Rain, good old Marty. Leon Estermont.

Leo. The Estremon's sigil is a turtle. Great stuff. This is one of George R. Martin's favorite sigils is the Estermont's

sigil. It's great. And Eddard Waters, a bastard. How progressive. Nobody in this family has ever had to know about a bastard

being at court. So, Marty, Leo, and Eddie. Yeah, I love it. Okay. This is the trio of pros we see them later

drinking around the throne with him. But not the lads. That's a different group of characters stories. I decided we could call them any number of things. Yeah, what do you got? Yeah. I want to go with Pussy Pussy. I love it. And I, Steve, our producer, suggested that I explained to our listeners who may not be, I don't know. Is this a, oh, the way, that makes me feel old.

It might be slightly generational. Wow. But to be clear, Pussy Posse is what Leonardo DiCaprio and his pals, his other actor friends in their youth called themselves. That's right. Nancy Joe Sales wrote a great, one of the best articles of all. about the pussypossie. Again, this is not a word that I love to throw around, but it's just iconic in pop culture that Leonardo DiCaprio, it is youth. It's great stuff. Along with Toby McGuire, among other people, call themselves the pussy posse. So this feels like Agon's pussy Pussy Pussy, Marty, Leo, and Eddie. I have no notes. Great. On the moniker front, Yeah.

Do you have any alts that you'd like to throw out for egg on the magnanimous, egg on the dragon heart, egg on the dragon cock. I did not have my ivory whiteboard to brainstorming. I just want to toss out for consideration for the room, egg on the window wanker. The alliteration of it. No, the alliteration of it is just immediately appealing to me. I do like it. Okay. Oh, man.

Okay, so he makes his way to the throne. He's got the conqueror's crown on. It's that idea from Fire and Blood and Otto we talked about last year. Every symbol of legitimacy. It belongs to him. The next line also is like, plus he's a dude and that made him qualified in most people's eyes. Not ideal. Yeah.

Not ideal. Great. You hear some petitions. I loved this scene. This was great. Top to bottom. Okay. How, what percentage of your response was, wait, could Egon be good at this?

Like, does he have the capacity to maybe be good at this? and what percentage of your response was, why does this dipshit not know to say out loud? I intend to burn the blockade and also wait, do people, is word going to travel if I try to just make one exception? But like, the way he interacts with, and then, like, Laris will invoke this to kind of manipulate him

in the next scene, but they won't know. They won't know. They won't know. It's a podcast for one. They won't know. Even though we know it's a tactic from Laris, like he is right, actually, to note that Egon has a touch. with the small folk.

Well, again, this stems from that, like, validation he got from the coronation, and he just, like, wants, he's, like, wants to be magnanimous so that this shepherd or this smithy or this guy with salt, like, we'll think of him as a good guy. Gerard, Hugh. One of the things that when we over, kind of over here, when Blood and Shees are walking through the throne room later, and Egon and the pussy posse are getting wasted, One of the things, there's the little, like, this is when they're talking about, the nicknames, but then which would you, which would your grace prefer to be loved or feared? And he says, I need to be both. My mother and grandsire mind me like some helpless duckling. I need to be both. Like, it of course makes us think of the DeNaris and Vassaris conversation about like, you know, nobody ever gave me what she got in there. So, yeah. I think that there is one learning and real time moment that we have.

have, though, because he says, he says all this stuff, and Otto is just like, let me walk up the stairs and just, like, tell you, tell you what it is. You can't give the sheep back. You need them for your dry. But then at the end, when he says something, having learned from, from Otto that when the king speaks, everyone listens, he's like, he's in the middle of something. He sees his grandfather coming up the stairs to tell him he can't do this thing. And he just sort of like, and then he just of like, says, makes a proclamation that makes Otto turn right back around and be like, well, I guess I got to give him this one. You know?

Yeah. Fucks me. Some coin for the Smiths for their scorpions. A request from Hugh. Just a guy. Just a guy being a Smith, I think. Anything else on this scene, Joe? No.

Back to Laris then. Pulls egg on. Yeah. Compliment some. Here's how you remind me in a good way of Vassaris before I tell you how you remind me of a Sarah's in a bad way. Also, by the old king. Otto is your dad's hand.

Okay. You don't have to. Of the word, pliable, was just chef's kiss delicious from Laris here. You love Laris. As you know, I do love Laris. I think he's a wonderful character. Every now and then in season one, especially the early moments with Laris, I was like, is this two, oh, here's this story's little finger? Skimmy, yeah.

And just like shouldn't the characters feel how they're being manipulated by them? But something like this here, like you resent the fact that your father didn't take you seriously. Like, don't let the people who led him astray do the same to you is perfection. Yeah. Plus, like, you get to pick who your hand is. You don't have to just take who your dad's hand was. Yeah. Don't let your grandpappy tell you what to do.

Oh, grand. Speaking of grand. Speaking of Grand Pappy, Allison Donato. Yes. Otto, who is being dunked on by Laris here when in episode nine of last season, Laris is like... Yeah, we talked about this and talk to Thrones. Laris is just playing all angles, all at once, all the time.

Constant. Yeah. He doesn't, he's not switching sides. He's just playing all sides all the time. Every door open. Yeah. Every door open. Okay.

And seeing Allison close a door on him is he's like... He waters directly from there. to the front room essentially. Yes. So yeah. And we should mention, because I don't think we have yet, we see cheese in the background

multiple times in this episode. Passing by the door, the open door of the throne room was the one that gave me the biggest chill. That was like, oh, family time. Alison Tenado. Just sitting at dad's table

reading his letters. Oh, am I not supposed to read your email when you're out of the room, Mallory? This is so funny to me. Don't leave your laptop unattended then. That was genuinely, my thought. I was like, I feel like I would put this shit away. Yeah.

Right. On the lockbox. Yeah. So Allison is annoyed that Dad kept her waiting and she has some notes on how things have been going for them which is a series long proposition at this point. Yes. What did you make of the scene?

When she says that he's cutting her legs out in front of a table of men was the most overt fuck the patriarchy, I think moment of the episode that I quite like. But also, if you underwine my voice, both those boys will grow deaf to it. And he's sort of like, he hears her.

He's like, I hadn't seen it that way. Okay. However, they both have a completely incorrect read of these boys. Totally. Right? Totally. Yeah. Amen, fiercely loyal?

Absolutely not. Amon and Kristen just like having their own little bro ses. Yeah. And again, when they were having a little bro-sash. We were having a bro sash last season running around looking for Agon. All Aman talked about was how he was a better fit to rule than Aigon was. Right. And then them saying Agon's going to get bored.

That might be true. But I think his interest is going to last longer than they expected, right? They don't understand the amount of validation that he's getting from this. Well, and that fits so perfectly into this family dynamic because underestimating your not paying attention at all to what makes the other person tick. I loved that moment in season one when Allison finally called out Otto, right? Because he's like, well, if that is true, then I made you Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Like, would you have wanted it any other way?

And wouldn't she say, how could I know? I wanted whatever you impressed upon me to want and now the debt comes due a debt, you are happy enough to pay. Like, her low point in season one, from her perspective, is an eye for an eye. She is appalled by what she proved capable of in that moment. And she tells her father that and he's like, Where is the duty? Where is sacrifice?

She tells her father that. She's like, I'm ashamed. Everybody's going to think I've lost it. And he's like, that was hot actually. I didn't know until right now that you were ready for the big leagues. Yeah. Like for the way that Allison is thinking about and looking at and considering her children into the mirror the thing that she resented about her own father is, again, like, tale is old as time,

these cycles repeat. You pass down that learned behavior. Yeah. But it is like just one more aspect of this tale that is like so deeply tragic. Masaria time. Let's just get it out of the way. The accent's way better. Better.

Just way better. It's better. Simply better. Going back to season one to. Yeah. Confront that accent again. The improvement. This is demonstrable.

Is notable. Yeah. Notable. It's like borderline incomprehensible in season one. It's astonishing. So you and I were wondering, we were curious at the time because when the fire happened at the end of season one, we were like, are they just going to get rid of Masaria? She gets a callback in the previously on. Yeah.

We were like, are they just going to get rid of Masaria because his character is just not working? And we knew that she was involved in blood and cheese, but we were like, are they just going to like? Are they just going to work around it? Like, what are they going to do? And as it turns out, they just fixed her accent. Great stuff. I thought she was great in this episode, honestly. I agree.

These scenes were really good. We had a lot of confusion from listeners. Because, so Eric, not Oric. Eric was a me. But his brother, Eric, who does not have a different trim on his cloak because now they wear the same armor. Dude, stealth candidate for moment of the episode. I don't actually mean this.

It's a bit, but kind of. Oh, last time I saw there were two of you? When last we met there were two of you is fucking hysterical. Okay. So Eric, not Arn. The last we met. One of you had a slightly distinct piping around your cloak. Arric is with Agon.

That's right. The A's. Eric is with Rainira. Correct. Okay. Correct. I mean, I was just trying to give a new model. to people if they cared. Okay, so.

Finds her sheltering with some goats. As one does. And in a boat. And a lot of our listeners were like, was she headed to Dragonstone? I'm so confused. This is part of the blockade. She was headed presumably

to Esos or somewhere. She was just getting the hell out of Dodge. That's what I'm sorry I wanted to do. And she was stopped and taken to Dragonstone. Yes. What is Eric's job description, by the way? He's like starships in the blockade and also. And I have to assume that the only reason that he was the one who found her is so that we could get the comedy of when we last we met there were two of you.

And like if that's the reason I'm honestly fine with that, you know it makes basically no sense that he would be aboard the Valerian ships finding. And so then Damon, who's been a picture of restraint and polite decorum throughout the rest of the episode. As he does everything. Yeah. Our character we adore who never makes any mistakes. It's Rainis's problem. It's Reneer's problem. It's Raniara's problem. It's problem. Yes. It's her fault

that all of this happens. Yes. You already mentioned the great you only blame me because your two enemies are out of reach line. I loved... Did you think I would wither in your absence? Like, she is calling him out on his... I'm no longer under your throlethaw, Damon. That's a really good one, too. Roodle. You know that. That shook him.

He shook. He like immediately was like, okay, how about a transaction? But he was shook. He was shook. I love that in our notes, you called out season one, episode nine. when Masaria says to Otto, when your plots ripen and you used all your grandson on the throne, remember it was me who put him there. I have to tell you something.

This is a true story about, this takes us back to accent quarter for a minute. Sometimes instead of just transcribing a full quote, I'm like, I know I have this typed out. I'll open my notes from season one. I'll just copy and paste it. What did you? I had, this is what I had written in my Google doc.

I wrote, When Your Blood is a weapon question mark, Brackett genuinely can't tell, have no idea. Because we didn't have captions on our screeners. And I, to your point, could not figure out what she was saying. So when your plot's right back, when your blood is a weapon. Could have worked. Yeah.

Okay. So she tells to, she's like, Otto, I put him on the throne. Yeah. And then she's like, Damon, I didn't put him on the throne. I was just profiting from the thing that was going to happen. In the same scene, she says to Otto, I could have killed him as easily as a wasp on fruit. and then, you know, she's sending rat catchers into the Red Keep to do a murder. Man.

Anyway, I loved all of this. Yeah, this was great. What did you think of Eric with an E going out of his way to follow Damon down the hall and be like, let me vouch for her? And then Damon's like, eat shit. You and I both have the same exact thing in our notes about this moment. They make you swear and swear where he talks about his brother and he's like, we're supposed to defend the whole royal family. What do you do when they turn against each other? I also do. I did too. And it reminded me in that dumb Kristen Cole line when he's like, we were never told

they had to defend Princess for Princess. Like, yeah, okay. Yeah. All right, Kristen. Sure. I agree. Saved by the Cyrax. Renera. Back. Wonderful Cyrax screech to alert everyone. The little like brief little head nozzle from Damon. He's like, did you get what you need? Okay. This is something that Emma Darcy said about Reneer and Damon's connection, which is they said... Husband and wife who are also uncle and niece. That's all part of it. That's all in the mix.

They also have two children together. Another egg on. Has the family learned nothing? And the Sarah's... Oh, that is a name. Oh, for a king. Oh. Oh, my God.

The listeners are never going to go back to no video. once they've seen you do that. I just loved that scene so much. I genuinely did. It's a darkness that are near shares with Damon. So in that moment, that little head nuzzle made me think of Sean Fennessee, aka the nuzzler. The Nusler.

I wanted the Nuzzler to catch on more than it did. But we can bring it back. Let's not give up. Okay. You and me. We'll make it happen. So to be clear, let's write it down. Craig, the Pussy, Posse, and the Nusler.

Yeah. Good company. A darkness that Reneera shares with Damon. And so when she, Reneera says, I want Aman Targaryen. Again, her one line of the episode. One. Amazing.

He's like, well, fuck yeah. Now I get to go do a murder. My favorite thing to do. Where's my cloak? Right? But also, it's like this, in this moment, they're on the same page. Damon's about to skip forward.

Yeah. A few chapters. But right now, darkness calls to darkness. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, he loaded the wrong book in the Kindle. It happens.

It happens. To the best of us. It happens. It happens. So the other moment with Damon and Masari is on the other end of this Renera return and declaration. That's where we get to throw on the transaction. Your blood is a weapon. Watch the mark.

Okay. So we talked about this a little bit on Talk to Thrones, but the fact that we just feels important to note that Damon has some knowledge of... He knows the tunnels. And the tunnels. He gave Rainera the little map in episode four. He can get from Renara's room to the Bowels of the Pleasure Dead. Sure can.

But he doesn't have everything that Masaria possesses. He has to seek out a different kind of currency from her. He knows blood. Oh, yeah. She knows chips. Commander! She knows cheap. And that's cheese is who they need to get where they need to go.

Okay. Definitely. Speaking of Renera. Yeah. Let's talk about this. And the funeral. And Jase's return. Jase's return.

Reneer's funeral for Luke. And then the way that this is intercut with Allison lighting the candles at the SEP, this gorgeous sequence united in their distance. That thing about Reneer only having one line, when I saw people comment that after I had not clocked that and when I saw people comment on that after the episode I was like well surely

she says something to chase and then I rewatched the JC and I was like no just that embrace and so like again we cannot say enough about Emma Darcy and like they're working this episode we already talked about this on Talk to Thrones where we said like there's very little Reneer but Emma's doing so much with their face

etc etc but like one line and implanting this like false memory in my brain that there had in more dialogue. Because those moments are so impactful. Yeah, they're rich. You can convey so much with the plants. That moment with Jace was so got wrenching and moving.

And again, it's another contrast because Allison is sitting with Otto talking about how can we control our children. Yes. And Reneas, and excuse me, Reneera is just like wrapping Jace up in her arms. And then Jace is holding Joffrey as they each put something on Luke's funeral pyre. Like, that contrast was so palpable, even though this is a scene that's meant to remind us of connections of the ties because when we see Allison lighting the candles at the saps and we'll talk about who she lights candles for in a second, we think back to her taking Reneira there in the second episode of the first season.

And even though the plots and the schemes and the plots were already underway at that point, there was such a genuine bit of outreach and friendship there. Like, you were in mourning. You were in grief. You have lost your mother. But also, like, your father loves you. That scene is so beautiful. We're watching that scene in light of this scene.

And, like, I was just devastated again by the distance between these, like, young women who once just, like, loved each other so much. She's talking in that scene in season, season one, episode two, about her mother, her own mother, Alice's own mother and letting a candle for her mother and feeling close to her mother and the mother, which is also there, different thing. And so she likes a candle for her mother. And then Viseras. And then. Luceris Valerian. This really got me. Like again, it's too little too late.

Olivia Cook. It's too little too late. But Alicent, the war path that Alicent was on. It's an insult. Like maybe one day you'll get one. It looks like you, Lanor. Over my cold dead body, Vassaris, will you proceed in this way? and to like the graciousness, even though it is too late.

It's like actually quite, I think, reminiscent of Vesaris in episode eight. Like, I can do this thing and you're like, well, but the gesture of acknowledging, like, this is who Luke was to Renira and himself and his family. And I can at least grant that. Like, there's a version of the character arc where Allison says, Luke strong. Luke strong. And that would be terrible. But that's not what happened here. That would be a wild thing to do to like...

Because that why light the candle. Olivia Cook is like doing such a good job, like showing Allison, like, just struggling through her emotions there. Yeah. For her to be then like, like, strong. Which it just wouldn't make sense. Yeah. But it was...

Yeah, Lucerne. Yeah. Any other thoughts on the funeral again? Damon, not in attendance. So that's tough. again, that shot for Raina and the moment with Bella. Bala and Rana don't get a lot to do in this episode,

but just sort of like their connections, Bala's connection to Jace, Rana's connection to Luke. Jace hoisting up little Jof. Very sad. And Jop putting like the toy that we saw Luke play with in season one

into the fire is devastating. Harry Colette as Jace just making a meal out of everything here. Also, anytime we see a little toy by a fire in a plotline about a dead kid in Thrones, it just makes me think of... Shireen! Shereen and Davos.

Oh, Shereen! Crushing! Tough. You've got a question about Shereen. I do. Okay, so we're going to go a little bit out of order for the last few scenes of the episode, because we have the Damon. Let me sign you up for a quick gig scene with Blood and Cheese, but we're just going to bundle that with the actual son-for-son at the end. So let's talk about Amid and Kristen.

Plotting and scheming. Plotts and schemes and schemes and lots. I'm not sure if you've heard, but they're the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Auto was like, can you stop scheming? Can you please inform the hand if you're scheming? And also go directly to your post, Sir Kristen. Do you think that's what he did?

What do you think the guard duty plan was that evening is my question? Well, again, they just simply do not have enough members of the King's Guard to effectively. Because that's bullshit because in the book, it's just a guard. They don't even say Kingsguard. They just say, oh, guard. They could definitely come up with a different security measure. Like, I love the Kingsguard math. I think it's very important.

There are other guards. For sure. Stick those two High Tower men we saw riding into the castle outside of Holyokelyness. I think the question of is Kristen Cole a good Lord commander of the Kings card is completely valid. Yeah. So, like, is his job standing outside of Allison's door until they could no longer bear the sexual attention and then he goes inside and, like, fucks her? How do you think she signals that she's ready? Does his door just kind of like

Creek open? Or does she like take off her clothes in a loud enough way that he can hear the like, I don't know. Anyway. So like is his post outside of her door? Or was his post outside of Helena's door and he decided to go to Allison's door instead? He's her sworn protector. So he should be, so there's just no one on Helena's door. Just doesn't.

It's preposterous. Rough. Rough. I'm happy to just blame Kristen for that. It's going to be a tough performance review for Kristen Cole. It's a bizarre. I mean, we're about to talk about blood and cheese and the changes they made, but I don't understand what

because blood cheese just killed a guard. So I just don't understand why they would have a guard there. They've got a killer handmaid and they've got to kill a guard. There's other characters they have to eliminate in order to have this clear path. So, Mario, you just have a guard there, which would make so much more sense and, like, kill him. I agree with that. I think that's a good note. Of course, before Kristen is tied up by the Dowager Queen.

means legs. He's tied up plotting with Amund. Seameless transition. Thank you. This is why you're the professional. Shout out Rossby. Shout out Stokeworth. Look at old Wallace and Braun. What could have been? Yeah. So Amon really goes, this is another spot where he's just like full Damon energy. We've wasted precious days in this war of quills and ravens. You love the war of Kills and Ravens language. I do. Words are wind. You should be leading the van and I should be flying cover on Vagar. Castle would dare to raise Renair's banner against us. We could bring the hole of the Crownlands to heal in weeks. Damon in the season one finale. Now, we need a place to gather,

our toehold large enough to howl as a sizable host here at Haranol. I guess it would have been a... We got on the west. What's that? Do you just say? I don't know. I don't know. Cut off the west surround Kingslanding with dragons and we could have every green head mounted on spikes before the fucking moon turns. And then Amon seamlessly transitions from mirroring Damon, a character, I would say, well known for saying, why didn't you, you never asked me to be your hand? Why am I not your number one? And then constantly trying to undermine the people who are nominally closest to him. A little bit of that here, too.

He's just taking another shot at Egon like he was in season, in season one, episode nine, saying he's hostage to my grand sire and mother. Hostage. Which stands in stark contrast to how Egon is speaking of Amon. in this episode. Oh, loyal. Like a hound. My best sword. My blood. Loyal's a hound. Okay, listen. Amon, as we noted in the trailer multiple times, calls his mother Allison.

Yes. Wow. He also calls her her Grace, but calls her Allison. Then he says, she blames you for starting this war after she plotted with my father's counsel to usurp his throne. Yes. Her grace speaks with two tongues. Now, you can't mention tongues and Allison around Christen.

I think that's why he went directly to her chamber. when I said go to your post and he's like, oh, I know, do you mean, do you mean the bad post? I'll be right there. But Aiman calling you Alasant is wild. Amon saying usurp. But yes. Is absolutely bananas, right? We got an email from our listener, Colin, who just called out this usage of usurp because

Agon has a bot into the propaganda. Agon's like, oh, my dad did not me and change his mind. And I should be king. And that's great. I got a dagger and everything. I'm in. And Amon's like, oh, we stole this fucking throne, by the way. We usurped.

You know what struck me about this, though? Is that like in season one when Egon is the one who's like, this is like just not a part of my life for my reality, Amand was the one who was giving us a, oh, team green loyalist all the way vibe early. Like when there are kids in Driftmark at the funeral, I remember us discussing this at the time when they're talking about Helena. It will strengthen the family, keeping our Valerian blood pure. That's what Aymann says. And then Agon says she's an idiot, rude. She's your future queen.

Queen. We did call that out. Yeah. True. Great. Love that. I still think he knows that it's bullshit. Yes, yes, yes.

That Sarah's changed his mind. I do. Honestly, though, I mean, as you know, Amon, I mean, I love Damon. Amon, my favorite maniac. I just love Amand. I love them, though. Okay. Rank for me.

The maniacs. Oh, man. Amon, Damon, Magor, and I'm putting Laris in there. What do you rank them?

Just in terms of my favorite characters through this point in the show? Damon. Yeah. Amen. Yeah.

Laris. Yeah. I probably have to put Magor allows because it's just like stitched into the tapestry. I do love Megor. Disloyal.

I like Amon calling Allison down here. Oh, yeah. Like she blames you for starting this war after she plotted with my father. Now, she didn't plot with her father's counsel. Exactly. I mean, she did on the Agon front, but she was also like you guys were plotting already before that I was brought into the no here.

Yeah. Without me? Cool. It's hard to not get back call invite. But I like him. I mean, obviously what Amon did with Vagar and with Luke. We've read the passages from the book before, there's no going back after that. It's done. But he's right to see that the, but the threads were being stitched into the tapestry long before that happened as Storm's in. But these are fractures and factions inside. Right, right? So he's like, I'm just going to make it happen. He's like, he's just saying it's her fault. Yes. She's like, it's your fault. And Otto's like, it's your fault, Allison.

You know, so it's... Kristen's reply. Act to of Into the Woods, Bricey and Sondon. Okay, go ahead. Kristen's reply to Amon's taking a shot at Allison. I liked because, of course, there's this interesting question of, all right, he's

Lord Commander of the Kings Guard, where is his loyalty sworn shield, he's plotting with Amon. Yeah, where will his loyalty eventually be? He sure is. He's like, let's turn this on Ranera. The way that he, this is the cunning spider. I know how to pivot. It's my favorite song.

Are you ready? She drew Allison into her web intoxicated her. It's not your mother's fault. Like, he's definitely talking about himself, by the way. He's just projecting so fully his own feelings, which again, I guess that's part of what he in, out. That is the kind of the source, actually, of his bond with Allison. So it tracks.

How did you feel about how auto-navival? like he added this scene with Amid. I don't know. I feel like this is just auto showing that he's not quite on top of his game anymore. Yeah. Because he's flattering Amon. Yep. And we talk to-Vagar are the greatest single power in the realm.

We talked to Chris about this on Talk to Thrones. Like, why would he do this? And it's like, because Amon has Faggar and he needs, like, Vagar is their WMD. They need Vagar to win this war, but they need control of Amid in order to have control of Vagar. And Otto probably walked out of this patting himself in the back being like, job well done me. And also everybody involved in this is missing the point completely, which is Amon can't control Vagar. That was the lesson of season one. This is the- They don't know the whole story. For the beginning, the idea that we can control them. It's an

illusion. Great stuff. Blood and cheese. Damon recruiting blood and cheese. Command! Instantly recognizable in the murder cloak is actually great. It's so funny. This is last email we have in the non-spoiler section, which is Molly who wanted to let you know that Damon needs to bring back his XXL murder cloak from season one because his updated one does not have a hood nearly large enough to cover up all that targ blonde.

My counterpoint is just this does actually look more like just a cloak you might wear. And not like the most insane garment we've ever seen. I'm about to crush my wife under her horse and the veil. I think we decided that the reason the cloak looks so insane is because there's like a horse stunt involved and they needed to hide the like stunt person and the XSL cloak, but it's still absolutely wild. But yeah, the murder hoodie is out and about. Damon? Yeah. Back with the gold cloaks.

Yes. Never forget when we saw him mutilating. I think that's why we had that scene. Many criminals? Was for this payoff. Yes. Yes, indeed. The prince still had friends in the low places of King's Landing, fire and blood.

and followers amongst the gold cloaks. Do you think George R. Martin is a big Garth Brooks fan when he writes that Damon has friends in low places. That's my karaoke song, by the way. Oh, is it? Yeah, one of. We should do karaoke at some point. Lave it all my roots.

Let me tell you something. Going to karaoke with Chris Ryan is genuinely a life-altering experience. I demand a Talk the Thrones. Cathartic karaoke after the finale. Joe, whose blood? Oh, blood, a real charmer. Former sergeant of the city watch drummed out of service for beating a sex worker to death while drunk. Terrible.

So in the book, he is an ex-gold cloak. Yes. Because once again, he beat a woman to death when he was drunk. Here, he's still gamefully employed by the gold cloaks. Commander! Standards of slipping. Cheese. Rat catcher. It's made clear to us here that he is a dog kicker, which is horrible, appalling.

Yeah. He is a gambler. Yes. This is part of how Damon is tempting him with this coin purse here, your debts. He is happy to continue to snack throughout this entire conversation, which I just think is remarkable. Like, Damon Targaryen. Yeah. The Prince of the City is here.

to ask you to do this horrible thing, and you can't put your gosh down for a moment. Well, since no one ever calls him cheese, I feel like Allen Taylor, Ryan Conner, like, let's just have him eat a lot of cheese. The actor who plays cheese was like, I ate more Manchago. By the way, he was fantastic. He was great, A, B, I love that they gave him Manchago, a great hard cheese. A great choice. But he's like, I ate so much of that while we were doing this over and over again.

Yeah, that's what Kristen says. He sure does. Do you think he says, I know them better than the shape of my own cock about Magor's tunnels? Great line. Great line in the book. We were thrilled to see it, make it to the show. Just to remind everybody that one of the bits of book canon that is, tells us really honestly everything. We need to know about Magor.

There's a lot of other horrible stuff that earned Magor the name, The Cruel. But Red Keep constructed, secret tunnels, secret passageways, passages and tunnels, tunnels and passages. And construction wrapped up. And then McGor had everybody who had worked on it killed. Everybody who had worked on it killed. So no one would know the secrets. So no one knows all the passageways. Like, David knows some, but, you know, I say eyebrows knows some others.

That's what I think. Eyebrows. Okay. Reniro was very specific with her request. I want Amund Targaryen. My auto-correct always makes it almond Targaryen. But it is Amin Targaryen. The one I have the auto-correct and the Google Docs is Thailand always goes to Thailand.

To what? Thailand. Thailand last or goes to Thailand. The country. This doesn't happen to you? I was like, what's it Thailand? And then I changed the spelling of my head. Okay, yeah.

No, I get almond Targaryen constantly. Great stuff. Could have put an almond in his eye, but instead he went for a sapphire. Opportunity, missed opportunity. Okay. So what does Damon say? Steve, let's hear this. You're to find and slay the Prince Eam and Targaryen.

He has silver hair and one eye. It should be easy enough to find. But I understand that he's quite good in a fight. You want to take caution. One half. We get the other one it's done. All right. What if we can't find him?

Dun, done, don't. I'm going to have Olman to Targary. You're to find and slay the Prince Almond to Darker. Sorry. Oh, man. Okay, so Joe. We talked about this. We cut away dramatically.

Takes you right back to air for a day? Air for a day. What is your reading on what Damon says next? I think it's important to note. Yes. Bloodlater says, a son for a son, he said. A son for a son, he said. You love imitating blood.

Commander. It's just so funny to me. It's like, Commander. Commander, let's go to you. Commander is you and yourself. I can't show a monocloat. I can't talk shit about the fucking eye talent. A son for a son, he said.

You make him sound so chipper. Anyway, a son for a son, he said, is more what it sounds like. Okay, so a son for a son is definitely something Damon said. Also, no head, no gold. Yes. No body, no crime. No head, no gold. Okay.

So, Damon says, a son, give me any son. Right. Give me a boy's blonde head in a bag or no gold for you. That seems to be instructions. Not go for the toddler next. Right. So right. It's like, did he say, oh, well, then actually just go get Agon's heir to the Iron Throne? Or does he just say any son will do?

To be fair. Yeah. There's only three kicking around the joint. So an Agon, interestingly, is the alternate theory in fire and blood. Some say their quarry was the king himself. But Aigon was accompanied by the king's guard wherever he went. And even cheese knew of no way in an act. out of Magor is a little fast.

There's my guy, Megar. Making him his legacies. The Tower of the Hand was less secure. So. And by less secure, in this case, we mean, well, they're not in the tower of the head. But if they were, we mean. The Royals sleep up there.

Literally no one's guarding the entire floor. Oh, man. Okay. So, we don't know exactly what Damon said. Because there's a rainstorm. By the way, I loved the rainstorm. Also, if you watch the house. It really helps you understand how much of the castle is just open.

Yes. But if you watch the House of Dragons built, I thought the rainstorm was really cool and all the, like, you know, quasi-one-shot moments that they have in that whole set. Because that set is like a complete set. And they've built it out for season two. I think they said, like, 400% more. So there's just like a lot more. So they're just like, it's a full set. You wander around.

You wander into the throne room. You wander up the stairs around the courtyard. it's so cool. There's a healthy section of the House of the Dragons built that's about them building the sewers, and they're so proud of the way they built the sewers.

And guess what? They looked fantastic. They looked fantastic. But the guy who built the sewers, he's like, there were no leaks, and that never happens. And the guy who does the lighting is like, the firelight looks so good on the water.

We didn't light it all. We just let the torches do all the work. So the sewers looked great. And it did feel, whatever questions, comments, concerns I have about blood and cheese in the execution, the journey through the sewers, like up the ladder.

Dog kick aside, it was too much. Yeah. But yeah, the score, the tension building. Like my heart, knowing what was going to happen, my heart was racing. It was really, really well choreographed. So, okay, we have our deduction about what Damon said. We don't know exactly.

If Damon was like, you know what, any of them will do, just make sure it's a son. then does this fall to you because it is still not what Renera wanted? Yes. Even if it falls under like, that would have been an okay outcome for Damon. Right. Does this fall into the bucket of what is, it really at this point, a well-entrenched and established central thesis of the show,

which is that like part of the, part of the horror and the lamentation and the tragedy of the dance is like the number of mistakes or misunderstandings or miscommunications. or miscommunications that unfolded between these characters where if just one little thing had gone differently, everything could have changed. The Amon's not being able to, portents and science, mistakes and misunderstanding.

Allison's thinking that Vassaris meant their son, Egon. Of course, Amon's not being able to control Vagar, which is part of that, like, a power we ought not to have trifled with. This is heavy on the mind, I think, of book readers especially, right? that they're just like all these direct acts are being turned into oopsies of some kind or another. And there has been some like negative pushback on that. Yes. I would say I've been thinking a lot about this and I really like it.

And the reason, a reason why is I like that the Amon that we mean at the end of season one wouldn't do that. But that doesn't mean that the Amon going forward, I feel like you and I love a character on an arc. I love a character on her. And I feel like it's important to meet these characters. Reneer is like, I just want Aymn Targary. Yep. But is she going to stay in that space? Or Allison is like, oh, I swear, Vassara said this.

But is she going to stay in this place? Are they all going to be pushed into more and more monstrous acts as we go forward? When we meet, Alison Hightower has the biggest sort of makeover for the show because she's just like this horrible scheming bitchy queen in the the book. Thanks George for the nuance. And they did a lot of work. You would say that it's his commentary on how the histories are told. Sure. Okay. Um, no? I mean, partially. But this show has added so much nuance to Allison. And so the theme of the Allison we met at the beginning of season one and the Allison that we know at the end of season one. So we're watching these characters be pushed into more and more extremes, more and more monstrous.

acts. So it makes sense to me that they wouldn't just start there, that they would, what, you have a look on your face. I just love this. We're in completely the same place. Because I think the initial, oh, wait, should these characters, like should the, should confusing agons or trying to fuck around and take an eye and scare your nephew. Should these things be the seismic? But it does feel, I love what you're saying about how that then builds and a thing that maybe was not your intention, then becomes the defining thing in your life. Like, I don't think that the whole dance should be a series of accidents. No, no, no, no.

But I feel like this idea of rational people pushed by, and especially pushed by their own errors into more, more monstrous actions is a much more satisfying story. I totally agree. It feels very human. We can't relate to being closer to gods because of our dragons. but like, speak for yourself. Sure.

It's amazing. Yet. Yeah. Making me six. And again, I mention this all the time, but like it is, it's in the series premiere

for a reason that Fisera speech to Roneira, the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. Their power men should never have trifle with. One that brought Thalaria, it's doom. If we don't mind our own histories, it will do the same to us. And so you can apply that at scale.

You can zoom in and apply that inside of an individual relationship or decision. The hubris of control and all of these, characters thinking they're in control or can be, whether it's of their relationship with their own children, the bond with their dragon, whatever the case may be, like, they will continue to air. And I really am compelled by what you're saying about then embracing that. Right. Like, it will, who says it had to be an error? Yeah. I can make that my power. And that's like, that's the, that's like a thing we just love in these stories. And then you get like, and then you get like calcified into this role. Like, like, when, you get, like, calcified into this role.

I love that. When we think of one of our all-time favorite characters in all of Friendsdom, which is Jamie Lannister. Yes. Like Jamie Lannister, killing the Mad King, you know, we find out in one of the best scenes ever written, committed to television of all time. Fantastic. Between Brian and Jamie, like, you know, this is something that he did to save, I don't burn them all. Like he was doing, like, what is he supposed to do in this moment? And then he gets this reputation.

And then what does he do? Lean into it for a long time. When we meet Jamie, like the beginning of season one, like pushing Brand out of a window or dueling Ned in the street. Like that is him being like, yeah, I'm the Kingslayer.

And then the fact that he has to confront, okay, this defining moment in my life, this thing that other people have like improperly contextualized and decided for me. You know, My name is Jamie, right? As part of why we love that scene so much. And then when he rides back into Kingslanding and he looks down, the person closest to him

in the world, the person who he's saying the things I do for love about when he pushes brand out the window, what does she do? She burned the city that he gave his reputation to spare from that exact fate. I don't want to talk about the bells. No, I mean, Circey, blowing up the set. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, for that to be, for that to be, okay, you can, you can, you can, you can

resent it, then you can embrace it, and then it's still going to be something that you have to confront the best. A son for a son. Okay. This is when we go into real sicko mode and are like, blood and cheese was kind of tame. Objectively horrific. The folly, the sound of the sawing on the four-year-old neck. The sawing was a lot. The sawing was a lot. Obviously, it's a young kid who was killed, Helena and the mother being there to not just witness it but have to be made to be a part of it in terms of the pointing. All of that is awful. We're not saying that this was like a cheerful chipper scene. That is not what we mean. But take us through, if you will, why this is, because blood and cheese, I think everybody's individual mileage may vary on

what the most horrific thing in the world of ice and fire is. But I would think a lot of people would nominate blood and cheese for the among the most. Yeah, because of the children involved, right? Like, versus, you know, the Red Wedding, which is infamous in television and book and history of Westrose, et cetera. But, like, but there were, I mean, Talisa was there. And they go the other way with, like, I mean, it's Red Wedding is obviously horrific in both book and screen, but like to, like, they almost ratcheted it up in the show. I was talking to someone about this. I was like.

With the stabbing of the. I think Wais and Benia. For all their, I mean, they've so many talents and some flaws. Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet. It's tough. They got this like real sicko edge to them. Oh yeah. That I just don't think Ryan, I just think Ryan Condal is just like a nicer guy.

And he's like, we really went for with blood and cheese. And I'm like, you did not. Okay, which is okay. Dialed down. Yeah, Blood and Cheese, like the red wedding. I'm going to think about for the rest of my life. Same. And I was just like horrified.

Unbelievable. When that happened. Yeah. And when you think of like Michelle Fairley screaming, you know, like I think about that all the time. Right? So I don't know that I needed. I didn't need Helena to scream. She screams in the book.

I didn't need her to scream. I didn't need that. But I just needed. And I really like Fia Sivan and the way, I don't know. And the way that she plays Helena. I like all that. I didn't mind her reaction was kind of muted, but there was just like something about it

that felt just like slightly inert to me. But I think this is a real divide among book readers and non-book readers. We're like if you went in not knowing what was going to happen in this episode and you're like... Alice and Sonne in there. It feels different.

The fact that there's not an additional level of killing the... Yeah, the catchers. The fact that this is... This is, again, I sound like a, I sound like it needs to be institutionalized or put on a watch list for saying this. I'm sorry, but we are just doing a headday comparison here. The kids aren't awake. Like, it is like little things like that, but this is like a nighttime ritual where Helena brings the three kids, three in the book, which we're talking about in a second, to visit with Alice and before bed. And it's their custom. And the children are awake and every second of this horror that unfolds their processing. So it's like, I'm sure for many people, it's a relief that the kids are asleep until the moment where blood goes over to Jeharris and wakes him, and he knows that moment of sheer terror before. He just sawed off with a very detailed sound design. And then Maylor.

Maylor not being the third kid. There's a two-year-old that's supposed to be there. And Helena is made to choose between which of her sons is going to die, and she chooses the one who's not the heir. She chooses Maylor. She chooses the younger one. She's like, Agon cares a lot about his heir. Jeharis. I'll choose the younger one.

Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand. Or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jeharis, was King Egan's firstborn son and heir next in line to the Iron Throne. You hear that little boy? She's whispered to Maylor. Your mama wants you dead. And then he cuts off Jeharis's head instead. Yeah. So they kill the other one.

That's just like a different tier. She picks the two-year-old. of terror. The six-year-old and whisper to the two-year-old, your mama wanted you dead. Now, I still say, I still maintain the two-year-old

is not going to remember that particular whisper. So, okay, the thing about it that sticks with me, though, is that Helena, and again, Mailer's just not in the show, so I don't think this is a spoiler to say,

but in the text describes, like, she can't look at him. Oh, yeah. That kid is alive. Yeah. And she can't look at him because she is so consumed by the fact that she named him

for death. Like, there's just a level of trauma from that that is. Yeah, there's like threats of sexual assault, as you mentioned, a dead guard, a dead maid. There's just like, it's just. Yes. It's one of those things where you read it and you're like, how was a person capable of thinking of this? Let me do a little head to head for you.

Which was worse? Give me a little like horror scale here. Yeah. Because we talked about this a lot on our preview pods, the question of would this be the thing that swings some people to Team Green. We're going to come back to that actually in a second. But we got like a mailback question. It was one of our books, spoiler questions.

So some people might not have heard us discuss it on one of our preview pods. Like, would blood and cheese be too much for some people to handle? And we talked about like the long history of horrific things that have be fallen children in Thrones. Now, there are too many to possibly go through on this pod. But just like try to slot blood and cheese in showland. You got a smattering? A little smattering. It's mattering for me.

I'm going to try to slot blood and cheese. Okay. This is what happens when we've podcast for three hours. Blood and cheese in the show or Jamie starting the series by pushing Brand out of O'Ns. Which is more horrific? Yeah. Blood and cheese. Okay. Blood and cheese or the mass slaughter of King Roberts Bastards.

The mass slaughter of Robert's bastards. Okay. Blood and cheese or Talisa being stabbed in the pregnant belly. Talisa being stabbed in the pregnant belly. Blood and cheese. Or Shereen Barathe being burned alive, blessed by her own parents. That episode also came out on Father's Day, as did this episode. Dude.

By the way. Ficked up. Sicko behavior. Ficked up. Sicko behavior. I think Shereen is worse. Shereen is worse. And then Blood and Cheese or Ramsey feeding his own baby brother to his dogs.

I don't know. Blood and cheese. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for chiming in. Thanks for playing. that game. All right, so what will the impact of this be? Play it forward for us. Yeah, yeah. Two questions. One, in the world of the story, but two, among the fandom,

do you think that more people are going to be Team Green as a result of what Damon has done? And then, same question, but inside the world. Like, what will the impact be on... This is a pure nightmare for Reneera. But on the pierre front, I also just don't understand why Amon to the Kinslayer isn't like, why that isn't being paraded through the streets of Kings Landing. Like the PR, the PR team on Dragon Snow really dropped the ball on like really pushing this Amon. I totally agree. I totally agree. I know everyone's got like stuff going on in their morning, but yes, they could have been working that angle more in the press. Yeah. I did want to quickly clarify actually, because I said on Talk to Thrones, you know, Renera wouldn't have wanted this because

like Helena is her half sister, which is that part's true. But just specifically to be more precise about it. Agon and Amand or Reneira's half-siblings, too. That's all kinsling. Like, Renera's saying, I want Amen to grant. That's still a kinsling, but... It's a cursed. No, man, this is a curse. It's the kins slayer. I have heard. Helena, Jiharis, their innocence. Seeking retribution on Amon for killing your kid would be perceived differently than what happened here. So I just wanted to draw that distinction a little bit more clearly. So it's going to be a tough look for Team Black and the show. I don't think viewers at home are going to blame Renira.

You don't think they're going to be Team Green. For what, it all depends on how Renera reacts to Dan. I can't wait to find out. Should we talk a little bit about the, very briefly here, about the trailer that we saw for the rest of the season? It's a, this season on trailer. Because you, Neil and Dave, will be talking about this in more detail on trial by content. following Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. So let's just do maybe our favorite thing that we saw because there was a lot of new footage in here that wasn't in the trailers we had previously seen.

What was your favorite thing and why was it Kristen's new haircut? It's Kristen's new haircut because it looks so dumb and I have so many questions. What we must do is terrible. Will you preside over it? Do you think he was talking about the haircut? Fabin Frankel's wearing a wig in this episode. Like that is true. So I don't know if he's just like, I don't know what happened.

I would like the full story. Oh, it feels so like Roman Empire coded to me. Yes. I can't wait to see the exact moment where he gets that gut. I can't wait. Megan O'Keefe from Decider, so she interviewed Fabian Frankel and was given like, she said, I had 20 units of Fabian Frankl, Matt Smith, and someone else divided among other people, and I asked him about the haircut.

So Decider.com will have some answers about Chris and Cole's journalism. I pull it's on the ground. Boots on the ground. What was your favorite part? All of the Riverlands action. We've been talking about this since last season. We've talked about it a lot today. We got so much Riverlands in this glimpse.

Kristen's saying the Riverlands at the key of the war, Harenhull is the key of the Riverlands. Damon at Harenhall. Again, this is like just, they're just, they're showing him there. Yeah. The Blackwoods, the Brackens. Jace at the twins?

The twins question mark? We don't know. We as book readers do not know. Oh, man. We know that, like, Jason's out there recruiting, but Jason of the Twins is not something we ever. Is he going to be meeting with Forrest and Sabitha? Is that who's sitting with him? Forrest Fri?

I'm just on the bridge of the twins. It's so cool. And then your guy. Your guy, Simon Strong. Simon Russell Beal, who's a tremendous actor, shows up as Simon Strong. Delightful. So it's just like, basically a Rupon. I'm stoked. I'm really stoked about the hair and all.

Anything else? The last thing we want to mention is that there's a mysterious woman hooded it, like with a red hood on, looking like she's in Kings Landing, right? Would you say that that's where she is? Seems to be doing a lot of like, let me look over my shoulder to make sure I'm not being followed as I suspiciously make my way about the capital. I believe we're allowed to say this because we both possess schnaz's. Mal and I were on schnauz wash and we believe that this young woman might be Alinda, which is Reneira's handmade. I really think it looks like her profile.

Yeah, it definitely looks like her. Yeah. So Alinda Reneer's hand, who you will remember from when Reneer gave birth and then walked bloody through the castle. She's been around a while. So what is Reneer? We don't know. I'm genuinely no clue. We don't know.

Handmaid doing in not quite a murder cloak, but a red cloak. A lot of people were like, is that Melesandra? Like a younger Malesandra? and I'm like, you're, I just twitched. Alinda, we should say,

is a character in the book. Her father is on the black council. Like, so I don't think, like, Alinda is Malasandra is going to happen or something like that.

So, like, but what is an emissary of Reneira doing in Kingslanding? Is this something like, Masaria has set up, like, what's going, what are we doing there?

What are we want in Kingslander that we can't get ourselves? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Why is Jason the twins? Why did Kristen do that to his hair? Oh, man.

Tijuana by content. We'll be talking about this more. Speaking of hair, it is time at last. Four, wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson. T.M. Will you wear wigs? All right. Vast improvement on the wig front this season.

I'm happy for you. Vast improvement. Not you, Craig. Craig Stark. Yeah. I remember you the first. The first picture we saw you were like, oh boy. This wig.

Listen, I respect the fact that the Starks have not changed their clothing in over 100 years. I like the wolf bit. I respect that the half-up pony with the pieces down is still the look. Okay. I respect the fact that they only were shooting five minutes of this actor so they felt like they didn't have to get him like a really good wig. But if and when he comes back, I'm going to need a lace front for him. The, like, the, the hairline here was bizarre. Anyway, that's for Craig.

Rainis' is Dragon Patrol wig, incredible. Rinear is iconic. No longer looks like she has like a pineapple on top of her head. But it was all, like, sort of coiled and, like, really business-like, great stuff. Looks like it could, like, sustain a lot of wind and still look great. Speaking of wind-swept, though, Renira's fucked up grief wig. iconic, tremendous. Wonderful. Wonderful. Loved it. Jeharis and DeHara, we have some notes.

Oh, man. You liked those little blonde wigs? I thought this was the closest they'd gotten to nailing the color. Jehers' hair looked silver to me. The color was good. The color was good. It was just like, is this kid going to have purple eyes? Like, are they going to do it finally? Is a four-year-old capable of growing that much hair? If you go your whole life without a haircut at four years old, I don't think you have that much hair on you. All right. That's fair.

Okay. I mean, again, once again, I do not know. But it's a great question. Okay, wow, what a wig watch that was. I know. I mean, we're back. Okay. It is time for our quick little, we'll have, we'll do this every week.

Because we do it every week, we don't go through every single thing that's going to happen in the future in the books. Just some of the things that really caught our attention or piqued our interest. If you don't want to hear us talk about things that are going to happen in the future, in fire and blood and that thus may happen in the future of the show this is where you leave us

thank you for spending multiple hours with us today okay no time for amusement stunned it's time for the book look ahead rapid fire

Magor on the throne I got you're all in on this yeah because we've talked a lot about whether Reneera Reneer's takeover

of Kings Landing would be the logical endpoint for the season But what if it's not just taking over, and we've talked about this since dating back to season one? Yeah. What if it's the sitting on the throne for the first time and then getting up and the trail of blood because the throne has rejected her? Like this feels like almost a promise. You're in on that.

I'm out on that. Yeah. On this, we are divided and that's okay. Yeah. Which is so funny because I was the one of the first who was sure we were going to end on Gullet, which is just obviously not the case now. Why, you're still thinking we can do the ones without Gullet. But that was my take. I know.

You're right, and you're right, and you're right. You're like, why can't they just switch the order, Mallory? You're right. And I was like, you're right. Why can't they just switch the order? But I'm just saying season three, I think season three is Gullet and Kings Landing. But then where does the season? And we'll talk about that.

We don't have to do that now. Got some seeds to sew. I don't know. Oh, man. I was wondering. Yeah. By the way. Yes.

In case you don't recall or haven't read the book, they call Renier Amegore with teeth. It's not great. but it is a thing that happens. So that whole, like, Magar the cruel, Reneera, the future of Reneer, I'm not looking forward to that, a nosedive and her reputation.

But also, just a reminder of how much the small folk will suffer during a Targ Civil War. Magar is a good reminder. Very much so. They're also going to have a lot of thoughts on their taxes. A lot of thoughts on their taxes.

Winter Wolves and the Hour of the Wolf. Okay, so my question to you is a simple one here. It seems clear from the interviews after the premiere that Craig and is not coming back this season. Yeah. Are we going to have to wait for the hour of the wolf for Kringen to return? Or are they going to sub-Kragan in for some of the other northern plot points?

That's what I would do. Why just have the Winter Wolves when Krogan can enter soon? I mean, like, he did just say I'm just sending you some. Because then he can be back in season three. But he's like, I'm just sending you some graybeards, not myself. So like, but I think it would be silly to not continually check on him. I also think that they're going to see the fan response to the opening scene and be like, we got to get him back sooner.

And that would be the right read. I really agree. Starks, don't forget the oaths, and we should just, I mean, what Jace does here, getting the stars, I should have been expecting that, but it really surprised me for some reason. Maybe it's because we've been doing this for so long. The Starks and the errands that Jace just nabbed are going to win the award for them at the end of the day. It's just, stocks, don't forget their oaths. I also thought that Kragan was, like, quite charismatic and compelling, but you still got enough

of that strict rigidity here that you need for the hour of the wolf. Oh, yeah. Like, he has to come in and be fiercely team black, but also say, I will not leave until we find out who's responsible for the poisoning that hit the other side. Like, he, it's such a fascinating stretch of the book to read and, like, some guy who's going to come on and be like, quarreless.

Honor. Family. Duty. Duty. Sacrifice. Okay. Outs. I cannot face that horriol bitchelin. Well, I don't know.

I'm not sure there's a, there's so much I'm looking forward to. The next few season, but I don't know that there's anything I'm looking forward to more. The Battle of the Godzai. Amon versus Damon, Vagar versus Karexis over the Gajai, where they both go down. Even more. So good. Urgently. Do you think Rainis will live to regret not taking out Vagar slash Amon when she had the chance?

Yes and no. Yes, yes and no because like... She'll regret it while she's dying. That's the thing. It's like, oh boy, maybe if I had listened to Damon, but like, if you're going to listen to Damon, maybe that just happens sooner, you know? I will say, like, I'm not quite ready to say goodbye to Anise

as soon as we're about to say goodbye to her. Like, so many of the trailers were built around Rooksress. Like, it's just, it can't be more than a few episodes away. It has to be mid-season. And like, but that's the other thing is like Rainy's, they're doing so okay uh i'm gonna yeah it's the next one seed setting dude Hugh Hammer this shocked me uh Hugh Hammer Alan Allen mentioning his brother um yeah they're they're putting the seeds in early yes and this is so smart so so we're gonna get when asked to assume

a lot of reasons to miss Rannis over the next couple episodes right and then we're getting the seeds uh the dragon seeds Again, if you're listening to the spoiler section, you haven't read the book. Adam and Alan O'Hull these brothers are Corleus' bastard sons and therefore... Yes, Adam will be riding sea smoke. Exactly. Why, Vlainor is not there? Who knows?

Hugh Hammer. This was wild to me. Not only that Hugh was here from the beginning. They've also cast his wife. Exciting. So we can't get some like, hey, let me have a relationship moments with Jace, but we can get them with... Hugh, interesting. Maybe we will get them with Jays. I don't know. I'm excited to find out. Not just that we met Hugh early and that we're setting, we're seating for the seats.

He is in Kings Landing. He's petitioning Aigon. He's saying, we're so like rooting for you. Routen for you against Renera. So it sets, I mean, I have no idea if this is exactly what's going to happen. But it feels like it's setting up that one of the two betrayers is going to have a betrayal before the great betrayal. That a term cloak is always a term claim. Is that why Alinda is in Kings Landing to round up the dragon seats? So my question is like, why would he be susceptible to being snatched? So Egon promises him the coin here. And if he doesn't follow through on that because of all those control or anything else,

then maybe he was like, fuck this, I'm going to go to the other side. Yeah. Right? And I do like that that maybe they're recruiting for the seeds. Like Masaria. Just slip for the hair. Masaria is like, oh, I know everyone in Kings Landing who is a bastard. I have a full catalog of the silver.

Yeah. Silver hair seeds. Have you heard of all the whites? I can't wait to meet off. So, yeah, that's just exciting because, like, you know, the betrayals from Hugh and Ulford so intense and awful. So, like, to set up that this is a character

who would say something and then switch sides before the key moment is really exciting, really exciting. Scorpion. Okay. So do you take the attention drawn to defending the city against dragons to mean that the attack on Kings Landing happens this season? or again, you're saying, no, it's just not happening.

I'm happy you were wrong. I don't know. I mean, neither do I. Okay. I have no idea. Egan's saying fools to Helena, they'd be fools to come with Vagar protecting the city. That felt again like setting up,

it could be still just for the beginning of next season, but if Amon leaves for Harenhall and leaves the city Boulder. Allman! Any round of Cracken thoughts you want to share? just so excited. Good stuff. Okay. Eric and Arick. I, there's a really rare Malayrubin typo in the notes here. You never make a typo. It says Eric and Arki. You never typo and I do all the time. Oh my God. Should we call? I was going to say should we call them Eric and Arki from now

on? But, you know, they're not going to be with us that much longer because Cargo Bowl is nearing. It's next. If you look at the bullet point of the dance, it's like blood and cheese, Cargo Bowl. very soon, right? Seeking retribution for what has unfolded with blood and cheese. This was a more effective use of the Cargold twins to me, just like a quick but impactful little moment with Eric. I liked it. Blood. Blood gold cloaks, loyal to Damon still. The gold cloaks are going to be a key part of how they eventually take Kings Landing. So again, it feels like we're building toward that. But when? Who can say? Rooks rest. I said it so you don't have to.

Thank you. Whenever that episode is unfucked. Rook's Roost, as I insist on calling it for reasons, that completely allude me. Our host growing as we advance. So this is what they're planning. They're planning Rook's Rest, Eamon and Christom. Exciting. Helena the Dreamer, this is the last thing we want to say. Take me through it.

We have a last email from William. In terms of Helena's calm during the blood and cheese. He says, Jehara, that's the girl one, is ultimately going to be wife and queen to egg on the third. Yep. And Helena may know. this part, her daughter is going to play. Almost, what's that Hatterack? Golden Path behavior.

But for casuals, I wonder if this is an odd motherly scene to dissect, even considering the already strange motherly character. But yeah, this idea that, like, she knows Jihara's going to be queen. She's already stitching Jaharis's funeral shroud, if indeed that's what she's doing, blah, blah, blah. That would be really sad to me if she was like, well, it's faded. Yeah, it's done. That would be awful.

Okay. One last thing on Helena's drawings. again, if you go watch the House of the Dragon Belt, they have like slow pans across the wall and something like that, and it is just like packed with stuff. A Shea from History of Westrose tweeted, like, tweeted these out, and I was like, why did you find these? And then I watched the House of the Dragon Belt.

Ryan Connell in that video says she has graffited her walls with her dreams. Absolutely beautiful. And again, no one in her family is like, what's up with this? What's up with the drawing? What the fuck? Highlights here. She mentions, she writes in her notebook, the goose kills its reflection and both die. And the cargo sigil is the golden goose.

And then there are these like, these two geese sort of like reflected like on one facing up, one facing down next to each other. So that's cargo bowl, right? Headless dire wolves, which could be Ned and Rob or, you know. He has shaggy, shaggy, dog. A woman on fire, which could be, it's a naked woman, so I was like maybe DeNaris, but also maybe Renier. I like Danny. A rat with a knife, blood and cheese. A boar, I was thinking about Robert Barathean.

Yeah. A baby being burned, Vesnia. A dire wolf with a crown. Rand or John, if you prefer. A stag with a crown. Bobby V. One less thing I'll say here. that I meant to say in the non-spoilers section.

It's not a spoiler. I just want to mention it here. The fact that Kristen and Allison are fucking your Reneer's bed. I genuinely love that this is, like, so deplorable to you. The production designer Jim Clay, who's the best in interviews, he was like, we made it. We specifically did not change the furniture because we wanted, like, Renera's presence there. So the fact that, like, I like. I like this idea that like

That like Kristen is like Fucking Allison And Allison is fucking Kristen And like whether or not you buy into this whole like Allison at Roneira Yeah Like queer reading This idea that like really They're there with each other

But really both of them want Reneura Whether it's like romantic sexually or whatever platonically The fact that that's all embodied By them having sex in the same bed Where Rinae lost her virginity to Kristen Cole or coerced her employee into having sex with her, is troubling

House of the Dragon. We're done, we did it. Oh, my God. I had the time of my life. This was delightful. Honestly, I'm sure that... But I have no idea what... Poor John and Steve are like,

guys! That was the length of all of season two, but I got to say I had it blessed. We were like, we'll be done 45 minutes ago at the latest. We've been off by more than that before in our time estimates, for what it's worth. For what it's worth.

All right. I should have done the Chris Ryan move, which is closing the last. Like seven sections ago. Mayle's must gorge and rest, and so must we. Thank you to our small council. John Richter? John Richter. And Steve Allman for producing this episode.

This is John, John did the accolite last week, the video edit. This is John's first, like, oh boy, we've got a three in front of this experience. John, welcome to the team. Welcome to the party, pal. First, but not the last. Our Gine Ramgo Pell for his additional production work on this episode

and Jomey Adon for his work on the social for this episode. We gave you the programming reminders at the top. Get your tickets to Talk the Thrones Live. Please. Check out the YouTube channel. Give us the five stars

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