House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 1 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Talk the Thrones is back! Things look pretty rough in Westeros, and Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson return to break everything down! They talk about the Otto vs. Larys proxy battle, Alicent and Rhaenyra's plots and schemes, and the shocking "Blood and Cheese" death at the end of this episode! Hosts: Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson Production: Jack Wilson, Chris Wohlers, Nick Kosut, Tony Perry, Bobby Gibbons, Cory McConnell, Arjuna Ramgopal, Steve Ahlman, John Richter, Aleya Zenieris, Jomi Adeniran, Jordan Bathe, Abreanna Corrales and Yvonne Wang Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. And welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are back to talk about House of the Dragon. Episode 1, A Sun for a Son. My name is Chris Ryan. I am your host here today. Joanna Robinson, senior ringer, staff, writer,

and the worst babysitter in all of Kings Landing. It's Mallory Rubin. Wow. Guys, here we are. We are back. Before we get into the show, a little bit of admin, I just want to mention that on June 25th, the three of us will be doing a live show for Talk the Thrones.

Join us. Be better. At the L-ray Theater in Los Angeles. Go to the LRA website or go to the ringer.com slash events to get tickets. We would love to see you there. Special guests. Who knows? Maybe.

Winged beasts. Could they be arriving. Guys, I'm so excited to talk about this episode. Joanna. Yes. Did the end of this episode mark something of a throwing brand from the window moment for House of the Dragon? Wait, what are you talking about?

Is it going to happen? Yeah. Well, this is a huge moment that a lot of book readers have been waiting for, for sure. and not to overstate it in terms of what's going to happen next, but this is how George puts it in the book, right? For both the blacks and greens, blood called to blood for vengeance. Is this the... Very chill.

Things are about to get... It's that light touch with the prose is what we go to them for. Things are about to get real personal. Now, were you more taken back by the child murder in this episode or the site of the wall and the north and the Stark? We're home. We heard the words winter is coming uttered on a television program on our screens. And the only thing that is better than being here with Joanna Robinson first of her name and Chris the magnanimous.

Oh, thanks. Heading back up north, seeing a shocking, horrific conclusion to the episode, did either of those things shock me quite as much as Kristen Cole abandoning the cap to stick his head into Allison's crotch instead? I don't know. Less than three minutes. We're already on to oral sense. already here. People come here for a reason.

Yes. Why don't I break down the episode? Shall I? Oh my God. The Chris Ryan recaps. This has been fact checked and spell checked by Mallory Rubin, so there will be no mistakes in this case. I refuse to accept any blame or culpability for Chris getting character names wrong.

Let's get into the episode breakdown. Is that the Stark family music I hear? We begin season two with some classic Stark bars about being cold and doing your duty as Jack Valerian, aka just. Cseras. Geras. Chasarus. Jace. Continues his whistle stop tour through Westrose to garner's support

for his mom's claim to the throne, John McCain-style. Just taking that bus, you know? Interesting, come. While chatting with Craig Stark at the top of the wall, Jack received news. We're going with Craig Stark. Yeah. Yeah. You and Craig enter already on Craig Stark. That's nice. One scene in.

He received news that his brother Luceris has died, so maybe take it down a second. Yeah. Okay. Get into a more somber headspace. Okay. Luseres dies with a career record of zero wins and one loss in dragon fights against Amon to Terman Targaryen. Is that bad? Well, I mean, is that not what you want? So the advanced analytics guys need to pour over the data.

Back on Dragonstone, Renice and Damon argue about load management for their dragons and the best way to maintain their naval blockade currently choking Kings Landing. Damon wants to toast a dragon and a kid, but Renice wants her winged vehicle to get some electrolights. The important thing to notice is. Damon says the name of the episode, and he is not going to let that go. No. I heard Bernice, but I know he meant Rainies. I said Reuters, didn't I?

Me. Recovery is on the mind of many H-O-T-D characters. Renira is wandering around in morning, apparently without any foaming cleanser. And Corlis is finally up and out of him. I'm so happy for that guy walking around the docks and giving thanks to a guy named Alan for pulling him out of the water. And is Alan spelled exactly the way that you anticipated a movie? Absolutely. It's the common spelling for Alan.

Very normal. At King's Landing, Allison is getting head. Helena is having premonitions and Agon just wants to party all the time. Seems like life during wartime to me during a small council meeting. We see some of the competing impulses of the Greens. Allison wants peace. Agon wants to have fun and Jaharis just wants to ride a Lannister, while Aman wants his blood and Laris wants everyone to know he is the worst HR guy in history.

Great to see him back in the mix. You wearing socks and shoes today? Laris is wonderful. Double pair of socks. He's also got his eye on. Otto Hightower's job. Now, if you're anything like me, you spent the last two years dying to know what happened to Missouri.

Thought about her every second. Thought about her every second. Sleepless nights. Yeah. Damon nabs the du moi of Westeros as she tries to flee. I don't know why I'm laughing at my own jokes. He presses her. That's how you know we're back.

Yeah, that's the classic. He presses her about weaknesses in the King's Landing security apparatus, which he will exploit in order to satisfy Renera, who has moved on to the eighth stage of grief, pure vengeance. There's some funerals. There's some candlelighting. It's all very sweet. And then there was an excruciating 15-minute sequence of Damon hiring Hitman to get that son for a son. Did you actually get the stopwatch out? I did clock. Benzley, yes. Two dudes named Blood and Cheese. I met them at a Boston bar once. Can you start calling us that? By the way, we've been meaning to Ash. Wait, but which is which?

I think I'm cheese. Yeah. Yeah. Blood for me. They're assigned to bring Damon the head. I would never kick a dog. Sorry. I don't want to be cheese. I would never kick a dog. Is that the worst thing that happens in this episode? It's the worst thing that happens in this episode. It's slightly worse crimes. They're supposed to get the head of Eamon Targaryen. What happens next is sad, gross, and an excellent use of sound effects. And we'll change the course of this show.

They kill a son, just the wrong one, executing to Harris in front of his mother. Now they've gone and done it. And that is the recap. There are a lot of people competing for the Iron Throne, but there's only one worse, Ryan. I want to start big picture. Chris the Dragon Heart. Thank you so much. Your support me. means everything. I want to start big picture. Just for TV viewers. Yeah. Did this episode feel

different? Because obviously it picks up pretty much right at the end of season one action-wise. But did you feel any differences in the storytelling? Well, I'm going to speak in the parlance of The Watch, a podcast that you do co-hosts. And there's big changes behind the scene, big changes behind the scenes at House of the Dragon because Miguel Sapachnik, who was for the director-producer for season one, is out. Taylor is in, and Alan Taylor corrected, like, your favorite movie, right, Terminator Genesis? It is. It holds

the whole thing together. Yeah. But he's also, I mean, he directed Baylor, one of the great Game of Thrones episode where Ned Stark lost his head, spoilers for Game of Thrones season one. A lot of decapitation in this. And also really recently, the interview with a vampire pilot, which is one of the best episodes of television. Oh, very cool. I didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So Alan Taylor's back. He's very well versed in Game of Thrones. And something that I noticed was, especially in the small

council scene, there's that vignetting that you get from anamorphic lenses that have been like really popular in television. They didn't really use those in season one. So we're getting those like blur. If you were like, is it only wrong my TV? No, that's intentional. A lot of showgun vignetting. What about you, Mel?

I've got a quick triple header for you here. Three things. One, new opening credits, right? We've got a remark on the new opening credits. We will probably go frame by frame. Which I learned when you said new opening credits. thread by thread. Red by thread on our

house of our deep dive on Tuesday. So stay tuned for that. The hand turns loom, you know, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread, Helena prophecy was one of the very like intriguing lines of season one and to kind of lean into that imagery for the new credits while also giving us

this literal tapestry of Targaryen history. What are the harbingers? You know, portents and signs, signs and portents. That was really cool to see. The blood's still here. It's just not working CGI, unintelligible blood, yeah. And then just widening the map, right?

I mean, when we think of opening credits, we think of the map in the original Game of Thrones series. And like, you mentioned the North already. We're not just going to be in Kings Landing, Dragonstone, and Driftmark this season. We're going to be out in more seats with more houses. They talk about all those different places. Otto's got a whiteboard.

Exactly. They're sketching out. All of these different characters who are going to come into the mix and the places we're going to go. So that's exciting for people. And relatedly, you mentioned already, Chris, like we pick up right where season one left off.

Yeah. We can never stop mentioning how many years season one covered, right? We move through, in essence, three decades of canon in 10 episodes of television. And so to pick up, we get that, like, she's been gone for days line from Damon about Renera. And I think that would just be, like, orienting and mooring and very refreshing for viewers

to know that we're like, all right, we're going day by day, week by week here, not like, oh, my God, there was a 10-year, jump between episodes. That's very welcome. I noticed the pace. It just felt like scenes were like anecdotally, like I would have, I don't know, stopwatch, felt like they were moving through.

Until we had a child murder. Well, the child murder, I was just like, what's quicker? Carvin throw a six-year-old's head or like carving my Thanksgiving turkey. Wow. That's not a hobby of mine. Anyway, I thought I thought it just felt like we were already moving. The major criticism I think people had

of the first season was the, while really effective and important to building character and understanding this Vesaris and this father figure that looms over this whole thing, that it felt like you started the show twice. And now it really feels like we are rocking and rolling. Mal, I want to start a little bit with the wall that you brought up. Speaking of a swift pace, just to zoom through the north. Why did we start there? Like, why, is that like a breadcrumb for fans, or is that an essential part of the story you think? All of the above. I think there are like actually a lot of things to hit here.

given how relatively compact and succinct of a scene this was. And I think that we probably had, for book readers, a shared sensation of, like, absolute euphoria. And then, oh, wow, Jace left the North quickly. Like, that was zippy. But if you remember back in season one, we opened with the prologue in the Great Council, and then we get this, like, card, right?

Setting the stage for us. And then it morphs into 172 years since Dineris. And it's like, right, this makes sense. You're hooking it directly. to a tether that is familiar from Game of Thrones. And so there's that here too, and I know you have thoughts on what that did to you emotionally, spiritually, mentally, right?

Philosophically, all of it. So I'll let Joe talk about that part. I was, of course, elated because, like, the North is just, I mean, Game of Thrones fans love it, right? And that was a thrill. Like, what went through your body when you heard this dark theme that opens? I was, like, quivering, like a raven flying on that late summer wind.

And then every time you heard duty in the Northern Arctic? Yeah. Yeah. Like, fantastic. I mean, everything about this, like, was just bliss for Thrones fans. Okay. We have a lot to cover inside of the scene. I want to ask two follow-ups.

Yeah. I am, and I understand that you guys are going to probably get really deep into this for the... Oh, we'll be going beat by B word by word. Yeah, right. Ooth by Oath. This is maybe a basic question, but who is in the elevator? Like, like, because... Yeah, this is your guy, Craig.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know him. Your guy, Jack, and your guy Craig. This is Jace. Renera's eldest son, and he is there with Craig and Stark, who Chris will be calling Craig and he is the wolf of the north. He's the Lord of Winterfell. Is that what he want to be called? If you're the Blood and Chaser, you're the Wolf of the North, Chris?

If you remember at the end of season one when Luke ventured off on his ill-fated trip to Storms End, RIPP, tough one still, we're all in mourning, and Jase was going to the Erie and to Winterfell. In the book, he also hits White Harbor and he visits the Mandurleys. And so this is like one of the things that really struck me, in this scene is that we see that Jace is good at this, which I think is important. And Reneira was like, remember the season one finale, you just like two bros, two young dudes, hit it off, you'll have better luck than I would, and you kind of see how Jace knows how to navigate a circumstance like this, diplomacy, friendship, et cetera, the pact of ice and fire. Amazing to see this. It didn't quite see that, though.

No. I've got gray beards, I can send you, right? That's true, but like, the, what we will say is that. book fans were hoping this would be a longer sequence. Yes. Right? In the book, they like, drink together, hunt together, train together. They were boys together. They swore an oath of brotherhood together. And then this, they took an elevator ride together.

Right. And then he gets an email. You ride the winch at the wall, though. Yeah. You're good for life. Okay. I briefly, what did you think, like, what do I need to know about the Torren Stark and the Conqueror, like history stuff that gets mentioned? Because as a casual viewer, I'm watching that, and I'm like, I feel like this is important, but I don't know. Why? I mean, it's a big moment for book readers, too. Yeah. Torin is known as the King Who Nelt.

Yeah. Because... I mean, the thing that I've always liked about the King Who Nelt, and this was actually at the Trident in the books, like, this is during the Conquest, Agon's Conquest. And so I think that's the big, to me, takeaway of this entire sequence, is like linking it to the Conquest, which links it to Agan's Dream, the Song of Ice and Fire, that Viseras shares with Rinerah in the first season. We learn in the season finale.

by, yes, stop naming all of your kids, Egon. That would be, that's the one note. A helpful note that we could pass along to the Targaryans, but it's a little late for that. And so, like, when, you know, of course, when we hear a character anywhere on Thrones, but certainly in the North talk about duty, we think of John, the Song of Ice and Fire incarnate,

we think of, like, Massa Eamon, up in, yes, up at the night's watch. You love is the death of duty, a line we love to return to a reference in Thrones. So duty is like a key touch point for Thrones fans, But for Jace, he walks up to the top of the wall. He hears Craig and Stark say,

Jeharis and Alessane, their dragons would not fly beyond it. The oath that I have to the north to the, we have a, the north has an oath that is older and more important than anything we owe to the seven kingdoms. And so Jace has not yet received, we have not seen Jace receive this information from Renier. And we will remind people that this is a show invention, this is like not in the books at all.

But our assumption is that, as Reneer, heir, Jace will receive this information from her at some point. And so to me, the main takeaway was like, what will this trip mean for him now that he's been up there? And not to like, heard about death marching on the wall. Right. Right. What's beyond there. Looking out and being like, oh, it's just savages. It's just weather. We didn't build this for, yeah. For savages. Yeah. The other king, Torin was the last king of the north until Robstar comes along. Oh, okay. Great. So like, the last king. And then he's like, never mind, let's unite the kingdoms. And the implication here is that they did it because Aigon told them about the prophecy of Issen Breyer. And that's a big thing for book readers. Well, Mallory and I don't like dig way into that, but that's something that even like book readers didn't quite know. Okay, that's good. So let's take that book reader framework. And I do want to ask about the final scene in the episode, which is obviously this drawn out murder of Jeharris. In my casual kind of scholarship here, it turns out they actually like kind of soft peddled it in the show versus the way it is in the

book. Like it's much more violent, sexually violent, and like grotesque, right? Yeah. So Alicent is there. In the books. In the books, Alicent is there. They tie her up. There's another child there, two-year-old there. This is the big one for me. Yeah. Mailor. The two-year-old's there. They do threaten sexual violence to like the six-year-old girl that's there. But the big difference is that Helena, in this one they're like, which one is the boy, which as they say in the episode, they could have figured out check themselves. Yeah. So that's just like...

Tough for first episode back. Yeah. Yeah. But sawing off the kid's head. Even gave it Thrones as a limit. Even gave it Thrones as a limit. But like in the book they have Helena pick which of her two boys, the two-year-old, the six-year-old. She wants them to kill.

Elena's choice as it were. Exactly. Merrill Streep wishes. And then they like, they pick the opposite. Right. Further traumatizing her if she weren't already completely traumatizing. So like they did audits. oddly soften.

I know. I feel like it's going to really make us sound like sociopaths to say blood and cheese. Wildly scintillating and horrifying television, but like kind of

relatively speaking, I think that I think Helena in the book picking Naylor. Yes. And then she's saying you hear that little boy, your mama wants you dead and then kill him. Maylor's two. Mailor's two. He's not going to

remember it. Oh man. It's just, I mean, it's all so harrowing. And I think on the one hand, there's like a level of processing this in real time where you're like, this is just the most horrific thing imaginable, which it is. And I think that we should talk about what this is going to mean for the story moving forward and what kinslaying means in this world. Because something like that we talk about a lot is recurring through line in Westeros in the text, no man is as a cursed as the kinslayer, right? And so this is a response, a son for a son is a response, of course, to an act of kinslaying. But like, aim into the kinslayer. This just becomes a stain that you can't shake off. But the other, the major key difference, and this sort of helps soften, potentially, Damon's character, is that the original, like, instruction from Damon in the show is, go get Amon. He's the one who killed, you know.

He's also, like, he's the one with one eye. He's, you can't miss him. They all have the same hair-cutting. He's got a flat-eye routine. Like, you know, you'll know when you see it. It's impossible to get good help anyway. Like, maybe he has to do it himself. But, like, in the book, like, it seems like,

the toddlers were always the aim. And then they did this thing that they did in season one that I actually really love, which is when blood and cheese are like, okay, and what's plan B if we can't find the Lego loss with the eye patch? And then they just cut off. And we can all at home decide

whether or not Damon said, find a toddler, find the nearest toddler. But they cut it off the same way they did in season one. It reminded me exactly. Air for a day. Which I know it's one of your favorite things to like nude along with Damon's character. Did he, when,

When Vicerr said, like, did you say this? Yeah. Did you toast my dead child by saying an air for a day? And that just felt so intentional in the show's part to pull away so that we have to fill in that space in our minds. And my assumption is that most House of the Dragon fans will say, Damon either said something very specific like that or said, kill any son you can. Fight a lot.

It seems very unlikely that he would have said, if you can't find Amon head right back out in the passages or try again tomorrow. That just doesn't seem likely. Correct. But I think it is impossible. Obviously, he's doing this in response to Renira returning. He's standing at the painted table and saying, Amid, I want Amid.

This is not what Renera wanted. There's just no way that this is what Renira wanted. Look at how she is in mourning for her own child. And we have to remember, like, Helena is Rehnira's half-sister. Right. Right. And this is just like a horrific, horrific thing. And Renira is grieving her own son.

so to take away a son in this capacity, Damon, you just got to be more precise with the instructions. And like, okay, so don't name all your children to Agon. And if you're going to hire two would-be assassins, just be very specific about which blonde. Make them check in. To kill. Let's talk a little bit about some stuff outside of this last scene, right?

Joe. Yeah. It was very cool to be back in this world. Who was the character that sort of leapt off the screen for you, and why was it A-Gon? I was really appreciate if you could use his correct title, which is Agon the Dragon, Cock, the Untamable Beast. Yeah.

That would be my preference. He's got away with branding. No one knows what Magnanimus means. It was very amazing. What about like shrugging and saying cunts in the small council meeting? That was my favorite, like him flopping out. Yeah. Tom Glencarnie is doing so much good work for Agon in this episode.

and rewatching the end of last season, he only got a couple episodes to make an impression. And even then, like, he was quite fun when he's fighting Amon in the street and he bites him. When he gives Alicent his version of, I don't want it, like I don't want to be king on the way to being crowned.

So the fact that he, like, didn't want it. She gives him this speech about, your father loved you. He left you this dagger. He wanted you to do it. And so we see Agon actually kind of trying to be king, less so in the small council meeting when he's.

distracted by the snowball. Jayrace. Oh, when he gets out of the point, he's like, let's get these Smithies paid, man. Let's get you your goats. Happy to give you your sheep back. Yeah. Yeah, you're worried about your salt.

Happy to let you know that my battle intention is to burn the blockade. So you needn worry. But like Agon sitting, the other quote that we love to talk about from, well, we love to talk about many quotes from this book, but this idea that Agon had all of the sort of pieces of,

official pieces of office, right? He has the crown. He has the throne. he was, you know, sworn in the dragon pit, all of that. So to see him just sort of splayed on the throne, this very important seat of power that Renira will kill many people to try to get. And he's just getting drunk with his mates. He's just a brobing a guy with his...

Just this insuredage hit hard, you know? Those guys are just laid out. I thought that was really notable, too, like the way that his relationship to rule has evolved because so much of it came from... Now, we saw Agon do horrific things in the first season, but there was this real aura of insecurity, right? Like, my father had, oh yeah, but my father had his whole life to change his mind,

and he didn't. So you're telling me this, and like, it is fascinating that one of the people who was most reluctant to believe that in season one is the person who it directly impacts the most. And so, yeah, to see him take the petitions, to see him, like, decide when he needs to heed all those counsel or push back and say, this is the thing I'm going to do.

How is he interacting in a little, like, side chat with Laris? When can he sniff out when somebody is manipulating him, is seeking to work their own agenda or actually giving him counsel that would benefit him? I thought, I mean, obviously, our time with Jahars is brief, right? But his desire to bring him to the small council. But that's the only thing. I will just say, I think Tom Glencardi is amazing.

His charisma and performance. Are you making a case for Agonne as a dad? No. In terms of how he's thinking about rule, he's like, I got to teach him to be prepared for him. had very little time to be like, actually Egan cares about his kids, which is something that they forgot to establish

the season one. But I don't, I would counter that. Agon actually cares about one kid. Yes, because he goes over and he sees Jahara and he's like, oh, you're not... Not that one. I have nothing to say to you and I have no interest in engaging. He just wants his son because he's going to be the heir. And so he's thinking about what his legacy as a ruler would be, which was just

not a part of his... He literally says to Aeman in the first season, like, I'm not suited for it. Yeah. You mentioned the person who jumped off the screen for me, actually. who was my favorite foot locker employee, Laris. He, I love the fact that he is like consolidating, like soft power. So he's basically replaced the support staff for Allison in the palace. With all of his people.

All people, all of his. Were you ready to say goodbye to Talia in this, in this fashion? Should we do like 10 minutes of silence on this show for that? And then move into the Masaria section. Can you do a little like impromptu in memoriam, Talia? Did you get bagpipes out? So yeah, he basically replaces Allison's support staff with his own spies, ostensibly. I have a question about that scene with her in the bathtub, by the way, but I'll get back to that.

I'm excited. She just only watches one body part? I don't think she's going to stop there. I think that what they're trying to. For Kristen's sake, I hope that's not true. Yeah, exactly. Oh, wow. I think that.

Oh, my gosh. What's happening with Laris there is that he indicates to Allison that he definitely knows that she was with Kristen Cole when he tried to see her. He came in five before the small council to check in. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, I've got all my people watching you. So she's in the bath. She's completely exposed and she's surrounded by Laris's people. Laris who makes her show him her feet.

And she's just like, get out of here. And she feels so violated and watched and, like, filthy about that, that she just, like, obsessively scrubs on shoulder. But I think she does that the entire rest of her. I think, like, I don't want Laris's people spying on me while I bathe. is obviously part of the text, but it also made me think of, you know, in season one when Vassaris and his increasingly gaping and festering sores

is being cleansed by the staff. You love a soar. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And he doesn't, he dismisses that. Yeah.

And Allison takes over. And so it also just, it's like a, the show is really deft at little things like that where characters leave us and people grow apart and they make new alliances and new relationships and they have new agendas, but those little things can port you back over, like, years and years of canon, to a moment when, like, a much younger Allison, who was in a situation she didn't want to be in and was working her way through, still had like that. What was that relationship like? It makes you think of that. And then what stemmed from it, right? Because Allison's relationship with all of these characters, it's like, in some ways that and her,

obviously her relationship with Renera, but all of the other relationships that they then forged with the people around them, like, that's the skeleton of the show. Everything else is, like, stuck on top of that. But like very crucially here, like the fact that she is very done with Laris, very like apparently, like she is no longer getting her like sexual... And he's kind of like it's getting increasingly difficult to like schedule you. Right. And so that's why he like latches on to Agon. He's like, you know, and at the end of last season, he's, Laris is always doing this. He's like, who can I ally with? Can I possibly ally with everyone? At the end of last season, Otto is like, hey, I,

I noticed he spent a lot of time with my daughter, maybe looking at her feet or something like that. There's no reason in those hours cannot in the end benefit you. One episode later with Laris, because they're not in episode 10. He's like, you got to get rid of. Yeah, exactly. He's like, and he's the one who brought Otto back to be Hand of the King. So he's just sort of like, that is Laris's survival mode.

It's just like, who can I latch onto? Who can I whisper to? And promise them, you know, that I will boost their power. And so now he's lashed on to Aegon for now. And then to Otto's credit, or at least an interesting piece of parallel story, it's like Otto going to Amund and being like, you know, we're going to get you your blood, but we're going to do it the way that I, like at my pace. One thing on the Laris front, though, that I do feel like compelled to note,

because obviously he's like hardcore little finger-coded, right? And we have the like always keep your foes confused little finger ideology in our minds, right? The bulk of our exposure to Laris and the way that he works in, manipulates people and how ready he, like, we should not forget that in episode six of season one, Lars kills his own father and brother. And it just sits down with Allison and it's like, this was what you wanted, right? Let me know if you need anything else before business hours conclude. So I'm curious to see how Allison responds to this because you're right.

Like there's a palpable, visceral change that is a, it's apparent to her that he's like, something's different. Yeah. Amon to you. Yeah. What will he do when he finds out about her relationship with Christ? but what will she do knowing that he is like watching her?

That's something that she should clock, I think. And I'm curious to see if that happens. So now the two people who know about her and Kristen are Helena, presumably. I think Otto knows. When she walks into the small council chamber with Kristen, Otto gives them a look. And I'm like that I think Otto knows.

He might have perhaps smelled something. Can I say that my on the aim in front, My actual favorite line in this episode is, you know, as you recall, you may or may not recall, season one ends with Amon and his dragon chomping a child. I do remember. It's a smaller dragon. It happens. The caprice of youth is how Otto Sun said, oh, the caprice of youth.

Yes. Don't worry about it. It's the caprice of youth. But there is, you know, what is the line that you love to quote most that Otto says about Amund? That rogue Amund? Have you, have you? Aviannava Blas? I have heard of him.

Worth a thousand times the price he paid. That's how Otto sums up. Winning Vagar to our side. So he's like, the drift mark. He has to handle and pander a bit to to Aiman because Aman has the biggest dragon. There was a lot of attention drawn to that too.

Not just like Vagar, but even like Damon, when he's setting up blood and cheese, it's like, you know, yeah, uh, if you do find him. Like, he's a pretty formidable fighter. You know, Agon's like, he's my best sword. Because Allison, just like, why are you here? Amin, why did you come to the small council meeting? You don't have a seat at this table.

You're not welcome. And the way that she, the conversation between Allison and Otto about how Otto is cutting out her knees with the boys was so fascinating. Because there's this like, how are they all talking, all of them. Agon, Allison, Otto about Amon, about what he represents. We see Amid and Kristen like plotting in secret. And Otto comes in and is like, I really need you to check in with Mia's hand to the king. but Allison going to her father and saying me please like Agonnell

he still listens to me he'll be aware off he still listens to me we'll get sick of this and then we'll be able to steer this how we want she is now doing what her father used to do to her she's thinking about her own children as just palms on a chessboard yeah they're also all playing the blame game like specifically at that small council meeting but just throughout the episode they'll just give each other look there's no time for amusement Thailand mistakes were made in the final hours of Vassaris's life

you know, like this happened. It shouldn't have, you know, they all have a way to blame each other. They're very, like, eyes forward, guys. Yeah, exactly. Let's not dwell in the past. Exactly. The flip side of this is the blacks,

where we don't get as much palace intrigue as we do with the Greens, but we get a little, and, you know, we obviously see, I was intrigued by the fact that the two people kind of closest to Renera are Damon and Renice, both of whom at various points in their life

thought that they might rule the land, right? So that obviously is going to inform. They're not long-term politicians or operators the way Laris and Otto are kind of like on the margins and they accrue power by like moving people around. These two people, both

ride dragons, both have an incredible amount of power. That armor? Yeah, they both and they are essentially the Air Force of the realm. And like at any given point, like they're basically like, oh, we could just go over there and light that place up if we wanted to. And now they may be underestimated

made in Damon and Vagar, no, Amen and Vagar, but at the same time, I thought it was cool the way they sort of propped up both the two of them, their relationship, and their the way that they interacted with Reneer. I mean, Renice was more like, you got to understand, I lost a kid.

She's gonna be in mourning. Who was that kid, though? Damon's wife. Yeah. Like, I think we can't. And Lainor. Yeah, and Lainor. She pushes the Lainor button too. And that's, I think that was impossible not to think about in that exchange. I think we cannot forget, because on the one hand, it's interesting to me to hear you

frame, Damon as Renera's closest to ally, sure. Renice, I would describe as an incredibly reluctant ally for Renera, like dating back to episode two of season one when she gives her, she thinks she's there to provide counsel, and Renera receives it as the, like,

lecture of that is the way of things. But I think she's come, I think the end of season one, she's come around. She's the last one to vow. But I think now she's in. Because she's very pro-Renera in this episode, and Reneer is so significant in her absence in this episode, and she's like, let's not do anything until Reneer is here.

So that's the thing that got her, was that Reneera seemed to be the one in the season one finale who was cautioning restraint, right? And so she kind of evokes that here when she's talking to Damon about, like, the more vengeful path that other characters would take. It's, like, good thing that Reneer is not here to act in haste, like, you would.

But the history between all of those characters, is so deeply fraught. Renice blames Damon for her daughter dying, period. Renice blames Damon and Renera for her son dying. And that was the other thing that was so fascinating to think back on now through the perspective of what happens in this episode is like back in episode seven in season one, Damon and Renira

are courting that response from people. We had so many questions about that at the time. Like, wait, you need the Valerians as your fleet and your allies. is it worth the collateral damage of them thinking that you were directly involved in their son's murder? But one of the things that Damon and Rainer say to each other is, like, they'll fear what we are capable of. They being the realm at large, not specifically. Corliss and Renice were sort of the collateral damage of that strategy.

Think about that now through the lens of blood and cheese. How quickly is that group going to move, the team Black going to move from, we want them to wonder what we're capable of to like, oh, fuck. Like, it's probably not a good thing if people think you're capable of this. Of sawing off a toddler's head. Maybe not. Maybe not the move. Okay, so we've covered Otto and Laris.

We've covered Damon and Renira. Remarkably, this episode hinges on the return and performance of a character who I think was, like, generally, like I would say somewhat ridiculed or somewhat criticized last season, this Misaria. Yeah.

And I actually was pretty into this, appearance and the plot line of like... I think a huge improvement. Yeah. Doing the reverse little finger. The accent is getting increasingly moderated instead of increasingly extreme. This is what it is. Almost all the characters in this show are prisoners of whatever faction they're part of.

And within that prison have become kind of fanatical about like this is the only way that this can be fought. Like we're going to be on these two separate points and we're going to collide. Yeah. And Massarra's just like, I'm just kind of get out of here. Like this is... I'm no longer. in your thrall. Go scheme with someone else. Have one for Damon to hear. My occupation is

gossip. Are you sure about that? Have you seen my new armor? But I loved her privatism and I loved her cynicism. I loved her just being like yeah, yeah. I was obviously playing both of you against the middle like that is my literally like my job description.

What did you guys think of this appearance and that and this specifically the scene between her, the scenes between her and Damon? Not the scenes between her and Eric, the favorite cargled? I thought. That was fine. Yeah. That was cool that he stuck up for her.

We got Eric and Arrick in this episode. Who could ask for anything more? Yeah, but the Aurek was, stretch was traumatizing because he was by a scorpion. And like, anytime you see a scorpion now in the wider throws universe, you just think of Yaron and bigger crossbow and Raygal. And it's like PTSD. Because he's like, look.

Oh, no, dragon! It took him a while the clock that that was being, are easily the biggest. The Swiss cheese wings. Yeah, exactly. Don't worry. It's got a lot of holes in it. But Masaria.

Yeah, Masaria. No, I really loved this. I loved the discovery of her. I loved her, like, weariness. She's just like, it is the opposite of Lairis. She is an equal master of whisperer. She is equally connected. She does hook him up with a rat catcher that he needs and all of that.

But she's just not enjoying the game, the way that most people who are playing the game are enjoying the game. And that is very, I mean, I guess a comp, a similar-ish comp would be Varis, because Varis loved. to the game, but towards the end on Game of Thrones, Varus is just sort of like what on earth can I do to protect the realm? And hers is just like, what on earth can I do to get out of here? I just don't want to be here anymore. And I really

like that different energy. And she also, like, Damon doesn't really have the power over her because she's just like, kill me, do whatever. I mean, think of the first time we see them together in season one. Like, they're fucking in a brothel as people watch them through basically these exact... Oh, I remember, yeah. Screens that we have here. And then he's like,

yeah, yeah, yeah, got to cloak myself. And, yeah. That's where we got the cup. Rider of Brexies. So it's a totally, just like utterly different dynamic. And there is actually kind of a steady evolution because there's the mid-season stretch where he's, you know, after the, he takes Renair into the bowels of the pleasure den, an iconic moment in House of the Dragon history. And he's passed out on her floor. And she's just basically like, I'm not in your thrall thing starts there.

Really? This is just a more overt stating of it. And the Varus comp is an interesting one because, you know, if we think back to the Dragonstone sequence, when Damon is using her as like a chip to fuck around with the circus, you know, I'm going to marry her and have a kid with her. Yeah, I stole an egg. It's, we're going to have a family. And she's like, I, what is happening here?

And the reason that I want to be a part of your life is for protection. And you're actively putting me in harm's way and using me as a tool in your fucked up warped game. And so when she made her move with all. Otto in the penultimate episode of season one and did the whole, you know, remember it was me who put him there about Egon, but also like made her pitch for protecting the small folk. Yeah. I will just say like I think we all in real time thought it was one of the weaker moments of the season.

This didn't feel that way. This like brings you into that headspace where she's like, this was my life before. These are the horrors that I worked through. These are the people in power who have used me for ill and like I tried to make that work for me and now I'm done with it. But what actually happens here? Like you said, she does actually give him actionable intel. That was interesting too because like Damon does have knowledge of the and connection of the passageways. Yeah, he's the commander in the gold cloaks.

That's why he's greeted by blood. Like, hey, commander, what's up? Yeah. I was wondering how he was like. Damon back in his signature murder cloak. Blood, by the way, and the book has already been drummed out of the service. The gold cloaks in the show. He's got a little bit of a rap sheet there.

Yeah. But, you know, Damon left for Nira in season one, the little, like, map of here's how you sneak out and make your way through Megor's secret tunnels to go out on the town for a night with your uncle who's going to become your husband. But I kind of see, I see that Masario might be a connection to a rat catcher. Like, I'm not sure that Damon would know a rat. It's like he had, the fact that we know he actually is in possession of some of that information, but still had to seek out something he knows she possesses that he. He does not. That is like a level of equilibrium in their relationship that was just missing previously. The last thing I want to say on the Masaria friend.

I know you want to stay here with Masaria forever. But this is the last thing I have to say about this. Mal mentioned when we meet her in season one, episode one, I did go back and like, you know, I'm just like thinking about that scene, thinking about passage of time on the show and characters who have been with us from the beginning. Like sure, Matt Smith has had different wigs. He got a haircut, blah, blah. But he looks like pretty much the same.

Yeah. Matt Smith himself. Yeah. But like, Damon got a haircut. Grout his hair, et cetera. But he looks pretty much the same as he did when we first met him. Seeing Masaria

sort of just like weary and bedraggled compared to like, you know, crisp and I was just like, oh my God, she was... She looked like somebody who was living on a boat. She was... But she was so much younger when we first met there, you know, decades ago.

Yeah. Do you want us to... You're going to call us blood and cheese. Do you want us to start calling you the white worm? Sure. No. You wouldn't be the first one. Wolf of the North I like for him.

Okay. Let's just kind of open up a little bit here because we've talked about a bunch of the different major plot points. I don't want to get too into what we think is going to happen and get into predictive nature of it, because for one thing, we haven't seen the scenes from next week yet, so there's a sort of fools errand somewhat.

Also, like, because of the nature of these books, the completeness of the history, and while there might be some surprises along the way, I don't want to get too into like, what do you think is going to happen with this guy? And you guys can just tell me. So I'm more curious whether or not Reliable narrator is a fire on blood.

Fire of blood. Oh, yeah. There was a scene in this episode that you thought was maybe sneaky important, maybe, like, more important that I would have thought. Like, I was thinking about the Allen scene, which went on for quite a while. And I was like, well, I don't know this guy. They seem to be having a tender moment of exchanging a scepter and gratitude with each other. The dagger he had made for Luceris.

Oh, his dagger. Okay. Yeah. It was a longer scene than you would get. Yeah, we had time to watch them, like, mop the blood off the deck of the... That's right. Your favorite part? Chipping the barnacles.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right. I was like, that's a lot of barricles. I like to see the details of how they maintain the fleet. No, but I just love that they're already on chipping barricles when the front half of the ship is just completely wrecked. That was like, maybe. Corius is like, I need my ship out there so that I can be a part of leading the blockade. And Alan's like, we sent seven more ships out like earlier today.

Can you chill? Yeah. But also have you seen your ship? It's demolished. So that seemed like a relatively important scene going forward? Watch. Watch the space. I think is what we're going to say about that.

character who was introduced. Was there anything else from the episode that jumped out at you where you're like, oh, how about that? I have something for you. Oh, sure. We have Egon Small Counsel. He does not have a master of ships. They mention a name, Dalton Greyjoy.

Okay. And I think it's okay for me to say this. Red Cracken. He's the Red Cracken. And I know how much you miss the crab feeder. I do. Are you excited that there's a character called the Red Cracken? He'll have to do.

What was that? The Trifecto? The Triarchy. The Triarche. the alliance. Yeah, I miss the crowd. I missed that kind of like weird subplot. It seems like this is going to be much more

this side versus this side. The great joys. How do you feel about the gray joys possibly being back? This is a great taker. He got some stacks. The trier. Yeah, the crab feeder. He's like taking back to the steps stones.

I thought it was cool. I love that part. Yes, I'm excited for the gray joys to be coming back if that is indeed in play. There was one other thing. Oh, Helena's premonitions. Yeah.

Yes. And her being like, I mean, that was actually one of my favorite little exchanges in the episode was like,

I'm scared and he's like of what? And she's like, rats. And he just goes, the queen remains enduring. Great line delivery.

But also right before that when he's like, where is he? Like, come on. Yeah. Is Agon perceptive enough

to have noticed that his wife called that. No. Slash sister. Life slash sister. So always bears mention wife slash sister.

Is Agon perceptive enough to notice. anything about Helena. I would say no. Definitely not. And I think like we have ample evidence at this point because her season one mini dream dispatches included he'll have to close an eye about the beast beneath the boards. Bees beneath the boards about Rainies and the dragon pit. And of course the the dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread that we already discussed. So yeah, I don't think that we should expect Egon to clock this.

Though I am interested in more broadly beyond Egonne, like the family unit's awareness of Helena's ability is because Viseris? It would almost be good homework for the viewer to be like, listen to what Helena says. Oh, yes. Oh, everything she says. But like, just when we think about again, what is the story about? What is the Dance of the Dragons? It's the Targaryen War of Succession.

It's a family civil war, right? And so like all of these people in theory have a proximity, a closeness and awareness. In season one, when we realized that Helena was a dreamer, we were so interested in thinking about and discussing whether Viseris, her father and the king, who was obsessed with the idea of being a dreamer. What is the power of a dragon next to the power of prophecy? Yeah. Had ever spoken to his own child about that even once? And I'm going to go with no.

Probably not. A little busy with the dropping wins. It didn't feel like the answer was yes. Yeah, he's like half my face fell off. Like I've got to go back in the mellows maggot ball. I don't have time to talk to you about your prophecies. I don't know. about that. You know, these

divides and ruptures can stem from things like that. When Damon and Reneer have their absolutely harrowing fight in the season one finale and he issues the line that we heard of the bizarre introduction of the whole series in the first teaser trailer for season one, dreams didn't make his kings. Dragons did. Like,

Damon has a resentment of that. For Viseras, it could have been a bridge with one of his children. But these people don't talk to each other. But that's what's so key about the Greens and then they're constant contrasting that with the blacks and how Renira actually has a connection.

Like we get the funeral. But like when Jayce comes in and he's trying to like give his dispatch and he's crying and she just like wraps him up in her and like we should say not a very not a lot of Renera in this episode but Emma like doing so much with their face. Fantastic. Just incredible stuff.

Yeah great job. The inner cutting of Alicent at the Sept and Renera at the funeral the tie we think back to the sept in season one, Allison taking her there, right? It's only for you and the gods to know, explaining what it meant for her to be there and think back to her own mother and to her close to the people that she had lost.

That's the first person she lights a candle for here. She lights one for Vassaris. She lights one for Luke. Like, it's a different, the handing over of the paper on the dragonstone bridge. She's like, all right, let's get some new terms over to them. Let's figure this out.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not going well so far. As she was born in the small council for you. Sorry. Your kid is dead. I are moving. being like, about her dead kid? Did she leave me on red or what's happening? Yeah, like the contrast, not only the link that that reminds us of their friendship and their shared history,

but then the contrast of how the, either the parallels of like, Otto is trying to work you, Damon's trying to work you, they want to control you, but then the contrast of how they interact with their children was like really, really stark. Stuck, it's pronounced stuck. I realized the one thing that I didn't get, I forgot to ask you guys about. Kristen and Allison fucking up a storm. Well, that was pretty cool, but in... I was saying he's a complete hypocrite. The title of this show is House of Dragons.

I haven't asked about dragons. Oh, I've got some of it. We got two dragon dismounts in this episode. A couple of dragon dismounts. This was a big one for... Yeah, it would be for me. Is the amount of rest and relaxation that these dragons need in between flights is going to become like a thing?

I think it's more the amount of also the amount of sheep that they need to eat. Got to take a tenth of the sheep. Yeah. I like how much. This is what we say to the crew, we're like, we need a tenth of the snacks from out in the pit stop. So we can gorge as soon as we finish recording. You should go to Sweet Greens and just like kind of keep it level. Like he doesn't need to.

No free ads. That's true. No free ads. No free ass. It was cool to see the dragons. I thought that the vagar scene where it was just like, oh shit. And then it was like, no, that's just, that's our good dragon. It's cool.

Any dragon taught, any dragon points you want me to know about. Syrax mourning. Oh, like with Renira. Man. Yeah. You know, like, I know I'm just going to be honest. I know that my, the substance of my emotional response should have been Reneira has found the cloak of her dead child. But I was like, seeing Arak's wing.

That was what really did me. I was like, this is probably going to bum now out. But I was also more like, isn't it disturbing that these fishermen are like, oh, no, we're dead? But yeah, I think we're going to respond it appropriately. We're going to get a lot. more like how the small folk are affected by dragon warfare like how is that affect everyone on the ground it's not just going to be about salt and sheep and iron but it's going to be about that as well but also I just want to float this to you

because as we know in fire and blood there's a bunch of like a bunch of different narrators a bunch of different what-ifs for various characters so I just want to ask you sliding doors moments yes exactly we love Gwen Paltrow we wish you were here so Luke do you like the that the prince survived the fall, swam to safety, lost his memory, and became a fisherman. Oh, that's awesome. No. Bagar ate him in one bite.

I really love this theory, though. One bite. Like a peanut Eminem. I want a future cameo for Luke just working the nets down at the shore in a future season. It would be great if he just, like, set up a small gambling book in like a village somewhere. It was doing like. Carrying on Beesbury's legacy. His body was never found. He says it's because he's inside Vagar's intestines.

I would say. In the history of Game of Thrones, with the exception of what was the mom and then she comes back, but it wasn't in the show. Catlin? Yeah. Lady Stoneheart. Like, has anyone ever actually alive when they're like, nobody, like, we didn't see Stannis get killed? It's like, yes, you did. The hound. Oh, that's right. Yeah. A hound. Remember that up? Vengeance. Well, by this logic, Jeharris could be alive. And you have time to get on that horse. We heard that happened. There were so a couple other interesting, quick little dragon things. We mentioned already the scorpion, right? When Hugh is making his petition to Egon about the cost of iron, it's to make Scorpion. So, like, there's a prep level happening.

All that detail was so cool. Amazing, yeah. And even, like, the way Egon is, like, the way they all talk about their dragons, because we had the kind of Damon Dragon Math sequence of the season one finale. We have this many, they have this many, and Reneer's like, Dragon Math. Hit pause and chill. I love Amy. Like this episode was so heavy, not the first one, but so heavy on Amand-Daman parallels. They literally use the same language, toehold to talk about why they

need to get a seat in the... Riverlands. Get at Harren Hall. And so, like, hearing Damon say to Erniece, you have to come with me. Like, we need Kraksees and Males. Let's head out together. I can't beat that hoary old bitch on my own. The way that they're... thinking about each other, we see in Amon's room a painting of Ballarian's attack on hair and all. Like this obsession that

Amon and Damon share. Is that the kind of dragon mural you open for? I also have that in my room. No, I miss the, you miss the Dragon Archie's tapestries. On our mind, always, on our mind always. So that's just... Sorry night. You know, they're both second sons. They're these like formidable foes

who are revered by others for their prowess in battle. Those cops are just always so interesting. And so, like, hearing them actually, like, hearing, again, Damon talk about Amund and this episode was really fascinating. The... Because in the show, we have heard David compared to Magor the Cruel before, right? He would be another Magor. And Magor is mentioned in this episode.

Magor's Tunnels. Not sure if you've heard, Chris, but Cheese knows the shape of them better than his own cock. That's a direct line for the book. Thank you, George. Wonderful stuff to see that make it. Glad you got one more seat on the news. Thank you. We're wrapped up today.

One of the things that we got in the opening credits was Magor impaled on the Iron Throne, a blade from the throne through his neck, which is how he died. There's a lot of speculation like what really happened, another classic kind of unreliable narrator bit of history. But Magor's constant, the show constantly reminding us of Magar and his history. It's just something that I love. Craggen mentioned Jahris and Alassane and their dragons not wanting to go beyond the wall, which we talked about.

A little bit of an update on book canon. Alassane is there writing letters to Jahars about how her dragon, Silver Wing, didn't want to fly there. It troubled me then, and it troubles me still. In Fire and Blod, Viseras's last night is spent telling his grandkids about Jeharis going up north to the wall. One of the things that we don't see here is Vermax, Jason's dragon, up in the north with him. But he hates it. In the book, it is clear that he hates it. And like one of the things that we did get to see in Game of Thrones,

and it did not go well, was what it's like for the dragons up north. Solar Powered guys, yeah. Not sure if you guys have heard of the song of ice and fire, but there's something, there's something there. I'll leave it here. It's cool that we're in episode one of season two and like the connective tissue is becoming so apparent, which I think for people who are more like Game of Thrones TV fans, that was like, that's a nice thing when you're like, now the stuff that I watch to start to pay off

in a little bit more of a significant way. Can I just say one thing that I think is really funny is that when people watch House of the Dragon and they're Game of Thrones fans and they're like, this is close to the show I love but not quite the show I loved. And one of those things is that it looks different because it happened, you know, over 100 years ago.

The style, the costumes are different except for the Starks. They wear the exact same thing. Identical. Over 100 years ago. Those guys have been wearing American workwear. It's working. It's working.

This was so much fun. We're going to be here every Sunday night right at the conclusion of House of the Dragon. So you can join us here on the Ringerverse YouTube page. You can listen to us on the House of our podcast feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And you can watch us on Spotify. It's been awesome to hang out with you all. We'll talk to you next Sunday. Bye.