House of R - ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

And what have Mal and Joanna done?" Why, an extensive deep dive (16:54) into the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’! They dive into the latest drama in Dragonstone (01:13:07), as well as the latest thing that gave Otto Hightower a headache. They also bring you their wig watch (03:10:17) and get into some book spoilers (03:12:30) later on in the show. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. And you acceded to this, this prank without consulting me or the council. Instead of judgment, you display impetuousness and diminish us in the eyes of our enemy, ill-considered, trifling. You never think of your father. His forbearance, his judiciousness, his dignity. Fuck, dignity. I want revenge.

Greetings. And welcome the House of Ar. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Yeah, you are. And it's my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the

totally smooth, nary a pothole in sight Streets of Kings Landing. Freshly paved. But also, two hour newish house of our podcast feed. 200th episode today, we think. But not all on this feed, so I'm still going to say newish. I support you.

Maybe I retire it after today. Joining me today. Telling me she has dared. And folks, she finds it stimulating. It's Joanna Robinson. Mallory, and will you stop curring favor with fish wives? Do a pod with me. Joe, we are here to do a pod.

We are here to dive deep, quite deep into House of the Dragon, season two, episode two. But before we remind Steve and John and Arjuna, who can see us through like a very thin pain today, they're just right there. Wonderful. That we are one soul in two bodies. Some quick programming reminders.

We're going to zip through these because we've got a meaty. A hefty, a girthy pod today. Over on the Ringerverse. Overrun the Ringerverse. Loaded week. Mint Edition. Summer road trip draft. Sweet.

That's tomorrow. Sick. Or maybe today by the time you're listening to this. Who knows. Who can say? Thursday. Yeah. The Midnight Boys Poo-Pew!

They'll be back for another double pod. Ackolite episode five? Yeah. The Boys Episode 5. Yeah. And then at the end of the week, somehow it is already time for Ringervus recommends again. I'm definitely ready for that. and won't have to read a book very quickly in the next two days.

Sounds great. Trial by content. Yes. What do you, Neil and Dave, have cooking for Thursday? We'll be doing our usual look ahead, looking at the trailer for the next time on and doing some speculation about what's to come. We'll be answering your questions, trial by content at gmail.com. If you have any questions that Mallory and I have not addressed in the next several hours of this podcast. Several.

And then we always do a debate. And I think this week we're going to be debating who. Most deserves the sack. Who deserves to get fired in Westrose this week? You got all the rack catchers out of there. Who's up next? Well, get your news is ready. Joe, we will also be back on Thursday.

Yes. You will be appearing on a multiple podcast feeds on the same day, not for the first time, not for the last time. Ackleight, Episode 5. Also, Rob Mahoney and I have a prestige TV episode of Presumed Dinnocent, a great show that people are just like really genuinely enjoying. Yeah. You would love it.

I can't wait. I love the movie. And I love Apple TV. And it is like, and especially horny. But as you know, because you've seen the film. Say no more. And then Sunday night, Joe, we will be back with Chris Ryan. When? Right here on the House of our. The second. The instant. The very moment. Moment. That House of the Dragon, episode three concludes. Head to the new. A brand spank and new. Ringiverse YouTube channel where you will be able to watch Talk the Thrones. You can also watch. Talk the Thrones on Spotify. You can listen to it anywhere you get your podcast. And speaking to that YouTube channel, if you haven't checked it out yet, pop on over, hit subscribe, then come back to Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, follow our pod, follow the ringerverse, follow them all,

give us the five stars. We're not too proud to ask. Love it. We love them. Keep them coming. Please. Like hops, sprinkled on our passing heads, five stars. Five stars. Yeah. Is that ash? No. It's a five. start review. Joanna, how can everybody follow them along? Oh my God. Thank you so much for asking. Hey, you know what?

Yeah. You're fucking welcome. Thanks. Great. Speaking of watching us on video, Hobbit and Dragons at Gmail, Hobbits and Dragons at g-mail is how you can reach us on email. That's right. You did get an email from someone who picked up on an, like, an inside. It's a robust car in the new studio.

It's a good one today. Picked up on a, like, visual, how I met your. brother joke that I did in the middle of our Ackolite pod that I did not say, but I just gestured. There you go. So that's something you can enjoy if you're watching the video, but you don't have to watch the video. Just follow us on wherever you get your podcast.

Right? Subscribe to the pause. Subscribe to Ringarverse. Listen to all of that. Follow us on social, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter, etc., etc. Facebook. YouTube, as you mentioned. And then, yeah, hit us up. Hoppittonsandragus to Gmail.com. Fantastic. What a way to go. Joanna, while you're at it,

why don't you share our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning with the good people? Okay, listen. Did it happen in this week's House of the Dragon? Yeah, then we're going to talk about it. Did it happen ever on the HBO series House of the Dragon? Could come up. Oh, then, okay, did it happen on Game of Thrones, a show that we have watched and covered for years? Fair game.

Did it happen in any of the books in a song of Ice and Fire that George R. Martin wrote? Could come up at any time. It's possible. Yeah. Did it happen in fire and blood up to the point of this episode could come up for context? Yes, we love context. Depth. You just love reading George's beautiful prose, especially when you describe sex scenes.

There's just iconic 10 out of 10. Unmatched. If it happens in the future in fire and blood, if it happens in future episodes, we don't know because we, you know, we're watching each week. But if it happens in the future in the books, we will have a book spoiler warning. Separate. And guess what? We're not going to surprise you with it. No, we're going to tell you that we're about to do it.

Yeah. So you'll know. Exactly. Yeah. It's just sort of like Laris being like, you don't need to be afraid about me. Here's the king with his mace. Now, imagine the maces as the spoilers we're about to, like, bludgeon you with. Laris will show up to let you know that the spoiler bludgeoning is coming.

Is that how metaphors work? Great. I love it. I'm excited to get your take as a baseball enthusiast on, on Egon's, Swing? Hit tool. Yeah. We get to see him swing.

a couple different times in this episode in a couple different ways. Oh, destroy. Yeah, destroying the beautiful model, which we're going to mourn in a few minutes here. Swinging right into Blood's head. What do you think? Is he a contact hitter?

Is he a power hitter? You've been watching a lot of Orioles baseball. Is this a good way to keep the pod tight today? I'm giving him like a 60 on the 80 scale. 80? Why is it out of 80? Let's move on. Put it out of 80, please.

Let's move on. Don't answer that. Just imagine that we're sitting behind the Orioles dug out at the Coliseum, and I'm about to give you a long, detailed explanation and answer to that very question. Yeah. And some old man is like, you're so lucky you have her here to explain baseball to you. A real thing that happened to us. All right, Joe.

Yeah. Let's chat about episode two. Reneira the cruel, tough one for Reneiro. But good one for a Magor fan like you? As you know, I love Magor the Cruel. I mean, you're his number one groupie. You're a Magor fan base. I still can't get over seeing Magor in the new opening credits.

Just an absolute delight. Renier the Cruel. This episode, Renier of the Cruel, directed by Claire Kilner. Three episodes in season one were directed by Claire Kilner. Four, five, and nine. This episode was written by Sarah Hess and Joanna. Just like this podcast today, it's a long one. How long?

69 minutes. Nice. Nice. Joe, it's not a sentence, but an honor. Yeah. To share the opening snapshot. Every one of those that doesn't have your dragging card is, like, disappointing. I know. I know. I know. It does feel like something is missing. It's there in absentia, I guess. Joanna Robinson. Yeah. Malirvin. What did you think? Just give us a little taste, because we are going to go scene by scene. Okay. But give us a little amuse-bush, a table-setter. of what you thought. Should I do this? Should I do this? Like, I'm conducting an orchestra the entire time as we speak.

I really hope your Bush's Moose by What I'm About Say, okay? What did you think of this episode? Really liked it. Yeah. Not my favorite of the season. There's only been two episodes. But I really liked it. So on the power ranking of two, you have it second? Yeah. The highs were higher, though, especially like the Rainier-D Damon fight, which we'll talk about, you know, all of that stuff is amazing. I do want to shout out Claire Kilner as a director. Yes. Rewatching the Green Council, episode nine, that she directed last year and comparing the moments of Vassaris's dead body has been discovered with the moments of this episode. You know, she's sort of doing a mirroring there. Yeah. She's very interested in, like, artistic visuals and, you know, slowing things down.

This episode is a ton that is happening, a ton of characters that were juggling. Yeah. There's, you know, a big physical fight at the end. Like, it has a lot of stuff. It also has... Your favorite scene. It also has Reneira gazing at dust motes in the shaft of life. I love an eyeball cam.

Yeah. The way it just, like, focuses from one eyeball to the other. Or the shot of Helena with the hops. Oh, through the air. Those are hops, by the way. For some reason, I mean, they look great. They're green husks of something. She wanted something green, Claire Kilner said, in the House of Dragon Belt.

Many a moment spent. on a preseason trailer breakdown pod, debating, disgusting. Is it ash? Is it a petal of a flower? Hops. Hops and Dragons is Gmail. So, like those shots, Helena with the veil and the hops coming down, or Rineer looking at the dust motes in the light and stuff like that.

So I want to shout out Claire Kilner, and I want to shout out Alejandro Martinez, who is her DP on this episode. He was a DP in all of her episodes last season and has followed her from shows like Fallout or Mosquito Coast, like, he's her guy. And this is, like, there's something I love to track with Thrones when we would have directors that we loved who would return. You know, you would have Miguel Sepachshnik, and then Fabian Wagner, his director of photography, would come with him. So, like, tracking the cinematographers is a really fun thing to do as we get more and more obsessed with us with the drag. How about you, how about you feel?

I did love this episode. I'm loving the season so far. I'm, I couldn't be more thrilled. Like, we are going to get a good season of television. and this is a delight for us as people who spend a lot of our time talking about Game of Thrones and love to be in Westrose together. Like, people seem to be excited talking about the show. I thought that this episode coming off of the premiere, which I loved, and something as deeply, deeply disturbing, but for readers, anticipated as blood and cheese, this felt like a little bit of a return, not in terms of, of course, how many years of Canon were traversing. But just in terms of the Tyrion-esque, great conversations, and elegant rooms, structure of the episode, a little bit more like the cadence of a season one episode. But in a way that had like a frenetic forward momentum, every exchange, every barb felt like it mattered. And we talked about this a lot with Chris on Talk to Thrones.

Available to watch on the new Ringerverse YouTube channel or on Spotify. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out if you haven't. The Dance of the Dragons is the Targaryen War of Succession. It is a family civil war. Yeah. And so it was always about fissures. It was always about strife.

Fractures. Fractures and fissures. Signs and portents. Plots and schemes. At the same thing. But what I loved so much about this episode and what is so dramatically rich and ultimately will give this season and this story, a level of like depth and vibrancy and life.

And for us, anxiety and tension minutes to minutes seen by scene by episode by episode is the shattering of the trust not only across the divide, but inside of each camp. Yeah, it's choose aside. It's team green versus team black. But it's Otto versus Egon. It's Renera versus Damon. We are watching the crumbling of each group that chose to align.

And so who will be able to make their way back to each other or form some sort of new alliance that they can rely upon. The aspect of the disintegrating structures there that also hinged on like a generation gap. There was a lot of talk, especially in the auto agon. Kristen's sequences as the episode about age. That was fascinating to track. And so like I just thought this episode and the more I've rewatched it, the more I've loved it and really found myself gripped by it because it's not only like a great way to push us

into the rest of the season. Every exchange felt like a rich character study, and I'm not sure if you know this. You love a character on an arc? Love a character on an arc. So this was a great episode. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I think to your point, this idea, the closed caption that starts this episode is Muffled Chaos. I think that's such a good description. No notes. This description of just like everything's going on. When we talk about the fractions and fissures inside of the various... This is our version of the t-shirts. I was already designing the merch in my head.

It's not going to be official merch because we don't have time for that, but by the end of the season, you will have a signs and portend, and spola, well, factors... Fantastic. Factor's, like, spoiled my surprise

that I was crafting inside my head while you're talking. That's okay. We'll have it. You love a T-shirt. I do. I love merch. Muffle Chaos.

This idea of also crumbling institutions because, like, you know, the blockade causing chaos among the small folk in terms of the day-to-day operation of the city. You know, we hear from Hugh the Smith that we met last week, his wife, Kat, who we meet this week. And she's talking about like, what are people doing for a chicken? Yeah. You know, what's going on? Allison, we're not hearing much from the church right now.

We don't, like, what is the church as an institution doing for us right now? Not much, right? Yeah. What is the Lord commander? the Kings card, you know, as an institution doing for us. Not much. So that idea of like all the things that make a society. Yes.

All feeling the fissures and fractures running through it. I can't wait for the T-shirt. So thank you in advance. You're welcome. Thank you in advance. Okay. That was the taste. That was the sprinkling of the garnish on the soup.

We did get the chicken. Yeah, we had to walk a really long way and it cost a fuckload. We've also got some goats due waiting for you. Carrots? It is time to head to the bowels of a pleasure den for the deep dive. In the bowels of a pleasure den. That's what gets you in the mood. When you go to the bowels of the pleasure den, that's what gets you going.

Amazing. Okay, Joe. We have to start where the episode began. Yeah. Muffle chaos. Muffle chaos. I have to be honest with you. The Red Kee, post blood and cheese.

Yeah? It's not the vibe for me. Oh. It doesn't seem like the kind of calming, serene, mellow space that I need. Oh, yeah, you're known for your call. Serene mellows. Joe. Yeah.

Lots of just bloody blanket moving. Now the hall action. Yeah. A very unsettling hound sniffing a garment sequence. I have to ask you, where was this level of attention and oversight when... I'm getting to my best Kristen Cole headspace here. Jahris was being murdered. Amazing.

You got the real... Murder. You got the cocaine gleam in your eyes and everything. In his bed. I need to take a hot second to speak to our listeners. Are you ready? Here we go. Folks, we love to hate Kristen Cole on this podcast.

Please do not ruin that joy by directing any of that towards Fabian Frankel. Oh, my, sensational performance. As Kristen Cole, please, I know none of our listeners are doing this. but the fact that Fabian Frankel has had to like moderate his comments on Instagram because people are confusing fact and fiction. It's a story we've heard again and again and again with actors and the characters they've played, but it's just sort of like, don't make me stop hating Kristen Cole just so be, let's all just enjoy hating the worst person in Westeros together and leave the actor out of it. Okay, that's all I have to say. PSA. Joe, how did this in general, this opening stretch, set the mood.

for the episode. I loved it because so I mentioned that Claire Kellner did this episode, the Green Council and rewatching that episode, this Ramin Javadi score here where we're like heavy on the cello quiet, like the score overwhelms the soundscape. Yeah. But it is also like this very quiet sort of mel. It's not frantic

music. So it reminds me a lot if you rewatch that sequence of the little boy running through the Red Keep to let people know that Viseris is dead, right? It reminds me of that. You know, he didn't spill his ashes, but, you know, who's to say? And then the score there, Ramin Javadi just like

being a king. But then, like, it has to also remind us of the Winds of Winter, one of our shared favorite episodes of Game of Thrones, which has a similar sort of let Ramin Javadi cook vibe to it. The score of the beginning of Wins of Winters is the best. I've been rooting

around, I haven't been able to figure out what the title of this track is. I can't wait for the whole, like, season two score to drop on Spotify, wherever you get your scores. But, like, I'm excited for what he will call this particular track. I think it's one I'm going to definitely want to revisit. I also want to shout out, amidst all the muffled chaos, Detective Amund. Yeah, this is good. Just looking around for.

seeing that his inner sanctum has been violated. Yet another note for blood and cheese, not that they need them anymore. They're where the notes can't reach them. But, you know, if you're entering from a given secret passage, maybe close the door behind you. I did like not only that, but the picking up, like the, over to the map and going under and finding the one coin that was left. There's, like, it's a clue of, oh, who would take the coins. Yeah. Take the coins.

Yeah. You would be moved to take the coin. Someone who is desperate or whatever. but also the shot of the coin is covering one eye and his patch is covering other. I mean, once again, Claire Kilner, great stuff. We did get an email from Mikal who wanted to say. I kind of like prepared. I know I'm looking over there as though I expect to see a raven actually traveling in,

though that will be the effect that our viewers are treated to. I know. The video team is really crushing it. John is just this sensational. I'm sorry. By the video team. John Richter is crushing it. Okay.

McHallr, I really can't say enough good things about the opening 15 or 20 minutes of the episode. It was such a raw, honest portrayal of people crushed between the millstones of grief and politics. The choice to begin with the impact on the castle servants was especially canny. It grounded everything that followed in a sense of wordless, chaotic terror, an excellent base note for the royal response. And I love that. I just think. And it also has to make us think about, like, because we're about to see, obviously, a prince loses temper. but it has to make us think of what the brothel madam whose name is Sylvie.

Yes. Towards the end of the episode. Yeah. Says, you know, when princes lose their temper, it's small folk who suffer. So we see just the brutalization of these innocent castle employees. Yeah. And then the rat catchers, all the rat catchers being hung later. What is life like for the small folk inside and outside of the keep in Kings Landing and beyond?

We are really starting to feel that impact keenly. and then, of course, the impact inside of each camp. Let's talk about King Egon, second of his name. Egon the Cockgirl, babe. Who is, when we first joined him in this episode, absolutely annihilating, blitzing, disintegrating into dust, Papa Vesaris's sprawling Lego set. This wonderful stone model

of old Valeria that we watched Build and Build. Sarah, so I'm not sure if you know this, Joe. Stone Mason's did all the work. He only poured over the plants. He only poured over the plants. But the symbolism of this, of course, is so rich. Not only one more way inside of this episode will get, obviously, to the, you are my dad's hand, and I don't need you. I need another hand.

Blowout. Yeah. But this new era, right? Out with the old, in with the new. And then also, of course, the symbolic imagery of this crumbling dynasty, because even as Viseris was pouring over the plants and overseeing this construction, he was a student of history. We talked about this a lot in season one. Do you mind your histories? If we don't mind our histories, it will do the same to us as what he said in the series premiere to Reneira when talking about the fact that they should never have trifled with dragons, this might, this power.

one that brought Valerian's doom. And then, of course, in episode two of season one, when he and Allison are bonding. Is that way they call it? Just a courtship can come in many forms in a Game of Thrones story. And she asked him... Sometimes it's your dad being like, put on your dead mom's dress.

Put on your dead mom's dress. Stop biting your nails. Ted to the king. You're the most comely girl at court. She asked him, while looking at that model, do you believe that Westeros can be a number? mother Valeria? And he said, that depends whether you speak of the freehold at its height or at its fall. So when we saw Vassaris drop that stone dragon, we talked about what it, what a portent

felt like. And now apply that, yes, back in season one. And now we apply that at scale. The king, the person who put on the conqueror's crown, the person who wields blackfire, the person who sits the iron throne, obliterating his own legacy without a thought, quite a note to start the episode on. I think also we talked last week about some things they send the, you know, House the Dragon Built special feature on YouTube that you can watch every week about the way in which Allison had not. Helena did a massive remodel when she moved in Allison room. It's just like bug stuff galore, right? So it's just like real Helena bug girl stuff in her room. Allison did not do much to remodel Renera's room and we can just continue to ponder as to why that might be the case.

AGOD didn't do much to remodel the Saras's room, obviously. The model, the huge Lego model is still there. He got rid of the books. Books out. Classic. Dragon Tapestry in. Dragon Orgy is in. Sorry, Mom.

Allison couldn't get those seven pointed stars everywhere. Had to hold on to the true art somewhere. And so with the books and the scrolls out and then now the model out, this is like real let's shove dad's hobbies out of out of my room we're going to talk a lot about we were both thinking a lot about time and lannister when we think about all the missed episodes that auto makes this episode and so then of course i'm thinking about our guy joff and did this make you think of when joffrey takes widow's whale and hacks the book the lives of the four kings that tyrian gives him a book of important history yes a book every king should read at his wedding

breakfast and Joffrey takes widow's whale, half of Ned Stark's historic sword, and hacks his book to confetti. Yeah, absolutely. And it may be like, pal, I know you're about to die and I'm so excited after you're disrespect to this way. I think it's a great comp. Yeah. Not thinking about the lesson that should be heated. And I do think, like, we're going to talk about a lot, say, what Otto does right and where he shows the board more clearly and also where he airs, where he missteps. And it seems clear that Egon and Otto are not well-suited as a pair. But the fact that Egon is all sharp edge of the blade, no room for taking a beat, strategy, quills, stil, like, Ravens. I want to spill blood, knot ink, another big theme of the episode. And so it's, of course, not a surprise.

like we do see him in multiple moments in this episode, weeping, he is in grief. We will talk about the scene at the end of the episode that is like heartbreaking when he is crying alone in front of his fire and his own mother can't bring herself to comfort him. But at the beginning of the episode in particular, it's not just the mourning, it's the rage. It's the bloodlust. Some of the things we hear him say, they dare strike at me. I am the king. Fire from the sky.

this is war, I declare war. What would Tywin, speaking of Tywin, Joe, to see to Egon? Any man who must say, I am the king, is no true king. So as a tone setter at the opening here gives us a lot of mood, vibe, and a Lego set that thankfully was a replica of the... It's only a model. Of the other one. Yeah, the original, the original... That was a reliant guy know. The original Malaria model they built has been preserved and carefully placed in boxes. Thrilled to go in, like, a museum somewhere. But, yeah, they built this replica.

My favorite part about watching them build that replica on the House of the Dragon built's YouTube thing was the dusting of powder all around it so that they could really, like, spray up when Agon hit it. Great stuff. Love it. Okay. Next scene. Yeah. Allison Tenado. daughter and father.

Yeah. Just sharing another completely normal, very chill conversation. The gates are shut. The search is underway. And dad's got a take. It's an odd one. It's a bracing one. We mustn't be shaken, Joe.

We mustn't be shaken by an intruder entering the royal chambers to kill the air to the iron throne in his bed. in his bed as his mother was made to watch. We mustn't be shaken. You and I are a partnership, right? And sometimes if you're distraught, I try to silver-lined things for you, right? So it's like, listen, some good may yet come of this. I'm just going to start saying that to you whenever anything goes around. All right.

I'd be like, some good may yet come of it was wonderful. We might spin this in our favor somehow. We mentioned this in Talk the Thrones, but I think it's worth mentioning again how good Olivia Cook is in this moment when she says what's. they've done to my girl. Her like sob, like that hysterical sort of gasping for breath kind of sobbing response. Yeah. And Allison and Kristen, their guilt, their shame is very present throughout the entire episode. What do they do? We'll get to it. Okay. We'll get to it. Oh, bad! Were they somewhere they shouldn't have been?

Oh, bad. Doing something they shouldn't have been doing? You can feel that in that line, too, what they've done to my girl, the culpability that Allison herself carries. Like, we talked last week about the book to show change of Allison's not being there. And you feel in a line like that in a moment like that, how that parting and that separation actually then like amplifies. But also just like Allison, again, you know, I'll make this Lucille Bluth comp again. Like, Allison has always preferred Halita to the boys. Yeah. Right? That is so clear in every scene that she shares with her kids in season one. And we'll talk about Allison.

Allison as a mom. And the very, like, understandable reasons why she might not be as, like, warm of a mother as Reneer is. Like, there are things that, like, these are not children born of love. These are children born of, like, a rotting corpse running on top of her. You know what I mean? And, like, from the moment we met Allison, when she looked like she was about 14, juggling a screaming, like, baby, she's just like,

Okay, but Helena, she's always had like a soft spot for, cared for her daughter more than her sons, blah, blah. So yeah, it's like what they've done. She's like, who cares about? Jeherrys he's dead. So who cares? What they've done to my girl. Yeah. The one I actually cared about.

I have some notes in the later pre-futeral procession scene on how Allison maybe channels and manifest that care. No, I'm not saying she's like mother of the year, nor are most people. parent of the year on this show. But like, what I understand about- Check out trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Oh, David winning two weeks in a row is he's on a, he's on a tear, on a charisma tear. But like, I think that Helena, what Alaston Dunb does with Helena, not to like jump too far ahead, but what she does with her, this is classic Allison. Oh, yeah. She only knows how to obey. Yeah. It's then she's just like passing that down. Playing the cycle. Yeah, exactly, the cycle forward. The, where's the Gen Zers in her castle are like, who says I have to do that?

Speaking of cycles, Joe, obviously our original Game of Thrones series is in the future of the timeline, but it's in our past. So we bring that experience to this show. And I think a lot of us were probably thinking about Circe when Alicent was talking about this idea of being punished. Now, Otto here does not. He's like, what's in? And then later, he's like, I don't want to know. So he's in a little bit of a different place here. I do not care to hear of it.

Then he will be later when it comes to how his daughter may have elapsed. But that Circe-Tyrian conversation from season two of Game of Thrones, sometimes I wonder if this is the price for what we've done for our sins. Which characters are internalizing some level of culpability and then which are not? which carry shame and are able to then maybe like heed or learn something from that and which like Kristen just then project that into manipulating and gaslighting another person. It's a fascinating thing to track in a story where terrible things happen all the time. And it's interesting with characters like, I want to watch Allison. Allison's one to watch. But like with characters like Kristen and, I mean, Damon has like no shame or responsibility. It was a mistake. Kristen has shame, but no responsibility. You know what I mean? So it's like, my ideal is take responsibility for what you've done here.

And is that something that Allison is capable of. I'm not sure. But like that, the distinction between, I don't really care if you're racked with guilt and shame, if that then manifests in toxicity spewed outwards. Yeah, exactly. And then Kristen, you send Eric off to his death because, you know, some fucked up way of channeling your guilt. Yeah. And so many of that auto, we must play the board before us, line and idea from season one feels like another one of those, like the Masario, you're blaming me because like the other people are just further out of reach idea that just applies to every character as a way to rationalize any sort of misdeed or misstep.

We'll talk about Amund later, but he actually does express a level of remorse that was really illuminating to hear, but he does it in a privately. private contained space where he feels like he can be who he is. He's not saying that when he sits down at the small council table. He's not going to Reneer to apologize. It's an eye patch off only moment. Sapphire fully on display. Otto is not just ready to say some good yet may come of this to his daughter. He's ready to reveal his plans in full to the small council.

So let's head to the small council chamber, Joe, where the Greens are. gathering where Agon has, I would say a frankly valid question for the room. Where the fuck was, everyone? While my son, the heir to the iron throne, was murdered as he slept. And I would like to shout out Thailand Lannister as Egon talks about the harm that awaited for just jumping in to say, were you also threatened, your grace? I could have been! This is an amazing Thailand moment. Absolutely incredible moment. Like, I don't know. Read the room and just stay quiet.

Made that like literally ring in my ear. Yeah, where was Agon? I mean, where was Kristen Abed? With the Dowager Queen. Where was Agan sprawled on the throne surrounded by the Pussy Posse and Numerous members of the Kingsguard? Talking about Agon the Dragon Cock.

Unteamable Beast. If he had been a bed with his wife, mayhap they would have been guarded. But yeah, here we are. Ironrod, also very prone to a misstep at the small council. Just like, your grace, are you sure it was Renera? Let's not rush to conclusions. Kings have a lot of enemies.

Thanks, Ironrod, for reminding me that it could have been anyone. It could have been you. Could have been you. Did he be there? I heard that from the little secret passage of the wall where he was no doubt, crouched and been like, I get to torture all of them for information. Yeah, the Kings Confessor didn't get to use any of his tools, you know? Blood was just ready to cough up Damon's name with a quickness.

And he had so many beautiful tools, just ready to go. He unrolled it like, do you watch Top Chef? No, but like fancy knives? Yeah, when they unroll and pack your knives, it's time to go. That reminded me of that. Great stuff. I wonder how Laris would do it last chance kitchen. Probably pretty well.

Yeah, probably pretty well. 100%. Okay, we're going to talk about egg on. We're going to talk about auto. Let's talk about the state that we find egg on in. Would Lairz win Survivor? He would either be eliminated. He's physically hindered, but like.

Immediately because he was playing too hard, which freaks people out. Or he would win. He's like an extreme outcome. He's a high himself behind someone who wins a bunch of immunity challenges. Yeah, he would know how to build an alliance. With someone who's really strong and then make the argument at the end. I played the mind game. Yeah.

And I fucked all of you. Absolutely. You got to respect me. The only, the thing that would only, it would depend on who who's playing with because, you know, as the Allison to Otto to Egon sequence has revealed quite, quite plainly, he's not reluctant to make the pitch, right? He's going to tell everyone their final two. Yeah. And so if any of them are talking to each other. See you and me.

To the end. Lair's might be. He might be in trouble. But he would definitely get everybody to tell him about. the advantages they had found, he would know where every hidden immunity item was. Like, whether he found them or how he'd know who had them. What's the plan this week? He's never going to be sidelined.

No. He's in on every vote. Yeah. In on every vote. Great. Proops, get on it. It sounds like we landed your next theme. Yeah.

Egg on the second, Targaryen. Team Green versus Team Black Survivor. I love it. Choose a side. They do typically start with three smaller tribes these days. Small folk. Small folk. Team small folk.

Yeah. Let's get huge. in there. Adam, Alan. So Egan describes his son as his legacy. We talked about this last week, the way he was eager to bring Jeharis to the small council, to start training him to provide this tutelage, and just this embrace that he never got from Vassaris. And that was really present here, too, not only the grief with which he describes my little son's body, but the way that he talks about legacy and it reinforces that he is thinking about being king, about what comes next, in a way that he never was when he was growing up because he did not think that he was fit for it, that

he was suited for it, that it would ever be his. That he was in consideration at all. How are you personally feeling about- Because by the way, the way that Succession works. Yes. It was Reneer before him. Yeah. But then it was also Jace and Luke and Jophe and And Jophe. There were like a million people. Yeah, Reneera's line. Between him and the Iron Throne. He wasn't second in line. He was, you know, gajilient and thin line. So this was never supposed to be him. How are you feeling, now that it is him, about the, like, the way the show is engendering empathy for this character who we saw, you know, we loved the titant performance. We love the Tom Glencardi performance. But we saw Egon do terrible things, deplorable things in season one. And yet we find ourselves so far this season, episode one, we have a moment where we're like, could Egonne? No. Like, be a decent, he's interested in hearing the petitions and working with the small folks.

I was never, I was never there. Heartbroken, watching him grieve. Are you at all swept up in feeling for him? Yeah, I feel for him. Tenderly. The same way that I feel occasionally for Damon. Right. Like, this is something that. But it is a difference, like you mentioned Joffrey. There's never a moment where we felt for Joff. No, no, no. No. Ever. Absolutely. And I've never once felt for Chris and Cole. Maybe once or me. But like, yeah. It is. It's definitely different from Joff, good old Joffrey. And like it's, and I love the performance.

I think Tom is doing an incredible job. I think the writing is really incredible to give him that dimensionality. But that was true for like Ty Tenet as well. We had a little less time with Tom Glencarnie's incarnation of Agon and mostly what was stacking up was terrible. I sexually assaulted someone. I love a child. My little son's body, let's talk about all the kids that you love to watch fighting in the pits.

Like, what are we talking about? The moment when Eric and Eric look over and we see this little Targaryen-haired bastard sitting in the corner at the fighting pit, etc. But even in season one, we did have these moments where, and again, it's in that harrowing stretch with Diana, but where he's like voice quivering telling Allison that it's never been enough, that he's never felt like he was enough. for Allison to Ciceres or saying he had 20 years.

My father never wanted this for me. Like, why on earth, you know? Yeah, my whole life to change his mind and he never did. Yeah, of course. And I think it is doing nothing to make me forget all the shit that he's done. It is doing genuinely nothing to make me think that he would be a good king because the way in which he was sort of carrying favor with fish wives with the various, like, small folk who were petitioning to him. That's something that I agree with Allison. I feel like he will eventually get bored of.

And also he's doing it selfishly so that they can think well of him. He's not doing it because he genuinely thinks well, like is thinking of that. Right. I think what it is doing is amplifying the tragedy of the dance, the tragedy of this tale of a family who they so often failed each other. And if Agon had not, we are not team green, we do not believe that Egon had a claim to the throne over Reneera. So not saying if Egan had been named Aaron made to feel his entire life that he was being trained to be king. But if he hadn't always felt like, like, remember the moment where Vassaris in his adult state when Reneira goes to make her final plea to him in the middle of the night? Like, my only child.

Like, that was how Eggon felt his whole life. So it just like, it does really heighten, I think, the tragedy of how these characters all failed each other. For all of them. Oh, yeah. What if someone had paid attention to the fact that Helena is a dreamer? Exactly. What if Aymand hadn't been, like, bullied, you know, like, everyone on Team Green, you know, like, Jace has had it absolutely rough.

In both sides, Rainer is saying no one's here for me. Like none of them ever felt like they were enough. No, but like I think Jase, despite his like, herumpf, you won't let me hop on my dragon and go patrolling moment. Like, I think Jase, this is the contrast that they're constantly setting up. It's not that I think Alicent is a terrible mom and I don't understand how that could possibly have happened. I understand why everything is so like emotionally. constipated on the grain side.

But the fact, the way that Rainier thus far has been able to nurture and care for her children is something that they keep hammering home for us. And Jace is someone who like, yeah, Jase is a great guy, a guy we really like and look up to and think he's wonderful. That's because he was like raised in a house of love and nurtured, you know. Agon and Amon and Helena did not get that life at all. That insecurity that Agon felt as a result of that is so palpable in this scene, too. He...

And projection. Everyone is projecting this episode. Oh, yeah. And so when he's like, Reneira, like the small folk will think I'm weak, Renira will be laughing at me, blah, blah. Sitting on a rock laughing at me. Agon was the biggest bully in season one of the kids. You know what I mean?

If anyone is like sneering and calling people weak, it was Agon. So this is like, you know, the biggest projector of this episode is mocking Helena when they were kids. He was the mastermind behind the pink dread despite the other boys being blamed. I mean, the biggest projector, the like cannon massive projector in this episode is Kristen Cole. We'll talk about that later. But Agon is doing his fair share of it right here. The way that that fear and that insecurity is driving him, he worries Runeer is laughing at him. He doesn't want to be seen as week. He can't allow himself to be seen as week. That will inform so many of the decisions that he makes about that steel fist, about pursuing strength. I do have a question for you. About killing 100 rat catchers?

Well, he got the one. Sure. I was happy to tell you to get the one. Do you, which of the, which of these would you like to claim for yourself? We're going to take them both for our new nicknames here on the pod. Which do you want? The bitch queen of bastards or the smug cunt? of Dragonstone. I think I prefer the smug cunt of Dragonstone. Thank you so much. Okay. I'll be the bitch queen of bastards. Guys, can you change our chirons accordingly? Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Do we need a sticker for your laptop? Bitch queen of bastards? Smug, cunt of Dragonstone. Oh, man. I thought that the divide of Otto started to like unfurl his plan for all to see here of the PR campaign,

Crisis Management, and Egon not wanting anybody to know, which you understand, like, yeah, you wouldn't want people to know that they were able to get to you this in this way, this intimately, right? But there is a naivete to play for young egg on there because it's like it's another version of the throne room scene in episode one where he thought, like, they won't tell them. They won't know. They won't know. Like, that he could believe for seconds away. He's with Darren.

Being fostered somewhere. It's fun. What did you make, Joe, of auto-inverting? When we talk about this idea of strength and weakness, perception, crucially of perception, right? What is power? Takes us back to so many conversations in Thrones. Yeah. This idea of the trick, the illusion, the shadow on the wall.

Otto thinks seriously about this. And he was the force behind much of that season one idea that we'd love talking about. It's from Fire and Blood. It was president in the show. All the signs of legitimacy belongs. to egg on. He's spinning that on its head here. He's saying a hasty coronation, a dragon escaping the pit. Look, looks like Renice did do something, demon to wound deep. And this was really funny. The people see an omen. What did you think of Otto spinning that strength onto its ass here? This is Otto's gift. He's a spin doctor. He's a PR genius. He's not a great manager of men. A manager of people. He does not know how to, like, move people one way or the other than he needs.

He's a project manager or not a people manager? He's, like, a big message guy. Okay. Yeah. He's coming up with the campaign. Yeah. He's not ready to mobilize the team. No.

Let's talk about his plan. Blame Renera, whether or not she had anything to do with it. That is not irrelevant to out of point for Otto. You mean to blame Renner. He can't wait to tell them of her depravity. Yeah. We love the word depravity. We loved that conversation between Damon and Rainira and the Driftmark episode.

Like, what depravity are we all capable of? Let's turn that idea against them here. Jaharis will do more for us now, Otto says, than a thousand nights in battle. But don't worry. Don't say that I don't mourn. He was my grandson. I love him. One of our listeners was quick to point out that.

it's not his grandson. Thank you. It's his great grandson. Yeah. He's his grandson a couple times in this episode, but it is his great grandson. So I don't know if that's just like it's an economy of language or if it's Otto just trying to make himself seem younger. That's from our listener, Sean. But yeah, I mean, I think we talked about this and talked to Thrones, but Otto, how much this has in common with Otto's moments immediately after Vassaris's death.

Yeah. When he says, we agree for Viserysius's death. is the peaceful, our sovereign, our friend. But he has left us a gift with his last breath. I brought you a gift. He impressed upon the queen his final wish that his son, Agon, should succeed him as Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. It's just sort of like, but where's the opportunity? And that's always been his game. And like, again, putting Allison in after Emma's death. Oh, yeah. Get out your mom's dress. We've already got the dresses. Chaos is a ladder. Have you heard this before? No, this is new to me.

What is this from? Are you familiar with this concept? Chaos is a ladder that a bad thing's happened. Yeah. And you can use it as a wrong to climb to the outcome that you desire. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the question I have for you because, look, this will eventually blow up in Otto's face.

He will be ousted as hand in this very episode. But again. Before the... Fired. Okay. Again. From the same job. In the same room.

The same room is for it all. If I were Otto, I would no longer take meetings in there. I know he marched in, but I would say book a different conference room. Yeah. I don't like the vibes in here. No. The funeral procession is a successful gambit. Oh, yeah.

It's brilliant. Eggon will undo that good work, as Otto is happy to tell them. They will have it. Idiot. Very heated exchange. Idiot. Yeah. Were you struck?

I want to be clear that we supported Renira going off to find Louis. Luke's body. Oh, yeah. We were not in the Damon camp of, uh, the queen is off morning looking for her dead kid while I'm here trying to win a war and lead a war council. But politically, terrible. Tactically? Absolutely abysmal.

The distinction, the contrast feels stark between how Team Green is ready to mobilize her towns and Team Black really doesn't have a game plan. But what's so key about, yes, I mean, that's true across the board with Team Black. She doesn't have an official hand of the Queen. That's like Damon's kind of role. but it's not like official. She doesn't have someone on the PR side, which is why it's interesting that she's like talking to Missaria in this episode.

You know, to Missaria, like has these things about things these ways in this big picture way. But she doesn't have a laura. She doesn't have an auto. She doesn't have any like one who is like really good at schemes and plots. Possibly. Damon hired two chuckle fucks and like really fucked things up.

You know what I mean? It was a. It was stupid. You need your goblet work too. I was clear in my instruction. Scott Faction. So she doesn't have a strategist over there, and she sorely needs that. She has Damon who loves to go off half cock.

And they're not aligned. Let's just talk about his schemes, which is like, I don't know, frighten my wife's horse until she hits her head on a rock. Like, they're so lucky they got away with the laner. thing. I mean, that also was like a hasty, terrible plan. Whereas, you know, Hail, Hail Jeharis, the Dead Conqueror, babe is like a really good. It's like a really good PR move. Oh, my God. Ahah. Jehress the Conqueror, babe. Baseball seam neck. Brood all. Otto Joe also, he... Did it change your baseball comp, which you've made now, like,

so many times to be in Texas. It looks exactly like the stitching on a baseball. I can't shake it. I'm waiting when I rewatch this now for Annie from Bull Durham to pop in and talk about the rosary beads and the stitches on a baseball being the same number. In behind the scenes, to be clear, in the behind the scenes, they were like, we've used this ancient medieval wire looping stitching techniques. Yeah. They're like, oh, we study, we poured over the ancient techniques. And Mallor's like, looks like a baseball to be able. First of all, that's a compliment. Baseball is my greatest fashion. Good old baseball head to hairs.

By the way, speaking of that House of the Dragons built insight into the next titchkin and everything, the way they made that entire prosthetic and the rat catcher prosthetics. It was amazing. But it's wild. I mean, I don't know why, but I definitely thought that was like literally that child on the carriage. It's only a model. It's only normal podcast where you have used that line to describe the Lego set and the dead prince, the dead prince. Speaking of characters who are dead are about to be dead on the blood front.

Yeah. When Laris comes in and says, listen, we found a guy he was walking and was seeking to leave with the princess head in a sack. Fairly incriminating. He didn't even try to say, like, I don't know how that got there. What? I must have picked up somebody else's satchel by mistake. I guess I wasn't watching my luggage the whole time before the plane boarded. I'm so sorry.

Oh, no. Really eager for Laris to work his craft. He wants information. He wants intel again. He is right to want this. I'm also eager for Larry's songs. I know, yeah. I know, yeah.

Egg on, tiring already. The diplomacy, the tactics, the deliberation. He wants to act. Oh, always studying. Yeah. Always protocol, he says here. So this is priming us for the fire. Yeah. Back to Allison. Yeah. Because the council meeting ends with Otto saying, the king is a mess, and we can't let the people see that. He's happy to tell Egon that he's already thought of his week, but he doesn't actually want to risk people seeing him in this state. Yeah.

And so instead, because the patriarchy is quite real. And also because Otto still sees Alicent and Helena as pawns that he can control and he is starting to have to confront the fact that Egon is not that the way that he wants him to be. I should not have to put the king through this. Should not have to suffer through.

But let's relate the queen who is literally there. Allison, and her mom. I need you. Helena, get her ready. Yeah. This is horrifying. And so Allison, when she hears this from Otto in the small council chamber, says that she does not wish to be a spectacle, right? But concedes, ultimately,

And then forces Helena, my girl, weeping over a girl, and then going in and saying, you're going to have to do this. I don't want to do it either. But this is our- Blackmail. It'll be very cute. Duty. Yeah. Duty. Where is duty?

Where is sacrifice? Yes. Yeah. It's trampled under the prince's rolling head that we all definitely thought was going to come off when he hit that pothole. I knew a moment of terror. Shearer terror. Yeah. Gross.

this public performance of grief. Yeah. Yeah, it's theater, absolutely. This theater, but also this idea that, like, Egon is excused from this. This horrifying, like, fun house mirror distorted version of Reneira and her family's private funeral for Luke last week. Just a handful of loved ones by a pyre.

Quietly throwing funeral. figurines into a fire, okay. But who's absent in both cases? Agon is absent here. Damon. Damon was absent last week. It's just, you know, the men are never asked. Off to share his very clear instructions. Whether it's public or private grief or emotional processing, these men are constantly not asked, not required to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Jace is there because he's a very good boy. Jace is wonderful. Yeah, they have to, they don't want to be present, but also they are allowed to be exempt. I don't want it. I thought it was so upsetting.

We see Helena holding this shroud that she has made for her son, weeping. And when she receives this mandate from mom. The shroud, which we should say she was stitching last week. So we have no confirmation one way or another if she was stitching it knowing it would be a funeral shroud. But like, we watched her stitch this last week when Agon went in to be like, where's my son? Where's the boy? You know, she was working on this. Did she know that this would be wrapped around?

old baseball head. MDD, mini-dream dispatch. Yeah, mini-dream dispatch. Deeply dismaying and upsetting to have to confront that. And I thought the moment, I was really struck by the moment where when Allison is explaining their duty why they must do this. Helena, because her grief is sincere, Allison's grief is sincere, but they are then made to trot that grief out for all to see, said that she didn't know them, right?

She doesn't want to be near these people. She doesn't know them. And it just like makes you think of, well, what is she getting from the people she does know that she is near? Nothing. It was devastating. Nothing. It's heartbreaking. And then she picks up the little toy.

Yeah. A little elephant carving. Do you think they call them elephants? Do you think they call them Olifon? Olifon's. In this world. I hope I. Let's go with Olifons for sure.

Okay. So it makes us think of the little toy that Jof, when he's in Jace's arms, puts on Luke's funeral pyre last week. It's a tether to that. It makes us think, certainly, on the toy carving front, how could it not make us think of Davos carving the stag for Shereen, which you will then find human body gone completely, a wooden toy intact, even so emotionally, very... Some strong resin on it, I think.

Yeah, strong resin. Strong resin. And then, of course, like elsewhere in this episode, shortly after this, we will see Reneira playing with, sitting with young Egonne and Viseras. Oh, that's a name. Fah. They came out of nowhere. Just every time I think of it.

Because, like, when we saw them, but a lot of kids, and Sarah's meeting, that was just so heartbreaking. I love your emotional resins and echoes. I love that for you. Yeah. On the other hand,

literally what other toys are there in Westroof? They're all only playing with carved animals. There's no bop it in Westrose. So maybe there should be. This is where we get that like Reniro. Yeah. Renira with the blonde babies. Yeah.

Egonne. Agon to Sarah. Her little Aryan poster children that she has. Her children with Dame. Yes. That's her like version of Allison with the candles, right? Her like sitting with these boys and just like thinking about. Thinking about Helena.

I would never... A Helena and innocent. I would never do this. Never. Thinking about Helena. It was such a relief to hear her say that. Not that we were surprised. I mean, we said that last week.

Thinking about Jahris, you know, similarly to Allison sitting there with candles. Looking at her little babies. I'm thinking of what... Yeah. Horror just unfolded. We're not ready to leave... Well, baseball head behind quite yet.

It is time for the funeral, and it is time for the confession. because, like we said, before the rat catcher misstep, we do watch Otto's peer genius at work here. All right, be the conqueror, babe. Should the Harold have said that instead? Maybe so. The masses have gathered, Joe.

The throngs are here to watch young Jaharis's procession to the dragon pit. To be honored as a Targary and prince. To watch them break it all down. to this sick beep. Let's hear it. So we're not, I mean, we're in... Defiler of the Innocent is very tough. Reniro Targary.

We are in Spain. Yes. Right? They filmed this in Spain. We're not in Croatia. Right. But were you thinking about Circe and the Walk of Shame? Of course.

Yeah. Searcy and the Walk of Shame through King's Landing from the Sepp to the Red Keep. The cowpied of Joffrey's face. Well, I'm always thinking about the cowpite of Joffrey's face. A favorite cherished moment. Any time we watch, members of the royal family make their way among and through the small folk. First of all, the question of, are they in control? Are they seeking to be?

How are they attempting to frame some sort of message? Think even of like, you know, Tyrion and Braun and Tyrion observing them talking about the twisted demon monkey. And he's like, yeah, I'm digging this. And then Braun's like, they're talking about you. Like what the connection is between the small folk and the royal family is always so interesting to see. But also, yeah. Perception in both directions. And also what are like a tenuous tether this is.

Otto was trying to take control of and used to his own will manipulate the emotions of the small folk, right? That is what he's doing here. Something that we saw in the trailer that's not here and actually, Alice is. and Helena are wearing different dresses. So it's actually, it is a different scene. But there's a sequence that they used a lot in the trailer of Alison Turnera, green dresses, blackbale sort of like fleeing from chaos in the street. It's not the same scene.

It's something that's going to happen later. It's going to be some sort of mirror of this moment where Otto is trying to control. Similarly to like someone trying to sit and drop an uncontrollable dragon. Yeah. He's trying to control this very volatile force, which is the small folk, which is the emotions of the people and what happens when you lose control of that. Vigar-E-Syrax. But it's a very dangerous thing to try to wield as a weapon.

Yeah. That was part of what I loved about this episode, because whether it's trying to control the small folk, trying to control Egon the king. Yeah. That's Otto's version, a king that, a king that Otto spent Egon's entire life trying to put on the third. throne, it's a very like Tony Stark we create our own demons kind of idea. And I love, it wouldn't be as interesting of a story if everybody's version of lost control hubris was

some sort of magical tether to a mighty beast. The fact that it can come in these many forms that for Otto, it's seeking to control a family member, seeking to control the people of the capital, like that it's a human interpersonal thing is, I love that about this story. Because everybody has that error, it just manifests differently. And those are the tools he has at his disposal as a high tower. This idea of like, we get the title, Renair the Cruel, right? This is straight propaganda to, again, a sick drum beat in the front of the parade here, that this is like... Behold!

This is auto spitting the message. Yep. And this goes back to our response to... to blood and cheese last week when we were like, this is so different from the book, why do they tone it down so much? I'm not so much,

it's not like it didn't occur to me that this is propaganda. We've been talking throughout about this idea of like the various things that happen in the book and the unreliable narrators of the book and the way in which things are spun

to support one ruler or another. We can't always believe what we see. We got this email from my listener, Braun, who says, One of my favorite things about fire and blood is the way in which it forces us to examine our own understanding of history with a critical eye.

Historical events we consider, quote, unquote, fact, have inevitably been influenced by the biases of the people who record those histories, not to mention misinformation that would have been rampant in any era when news was spread via word of mouth. Knowing that Jaharis's murder was always used as a propaganda opportunity, always uses a propaganda opportunity by the Greens,

puts blood and cheese in the same category as other infamous events that the show has proven to be misunderstood or outright false, like Lainor's death or Eman intentionally murdering Luceris. In short, who knew that Calla Shitt Head Otto Hightower could make me appreciate a child murder so much more? Bronwyn earlier in her email was like, I was one of those book readers who was like, oh, this is blood and cheese? And so on the one hand, I don't think that, like, that idea escaped us last week.

I think, you know, we're always thinking about the various unreliable narrations. Yeah. But I think it was more like, and that's interesting. But that moment in the story still, like the moment of Vagar chomping Luke, whether or not Aymann did it intentionally, still lands as this huge TV moment for us. For sure. Lainor slightly less, but still it was like an exciting, interesting moment for us. And I think Blood and She's at the end of the day still feels like a little inert to me despite, you know, this added. layer of like, okay, the version we get in the book, Fire and Blood, where, according to the book,

Alicent is there. Helena had to choose. There was a whole extra child that doesn't exist. Release the Maylor Cup. Like all of that. Yeah. I like thinking about the, like, and Ryan Condal has given interviews since to this, like, to the same tune of like, we want to think of the propaganda version than like what could be the actual version. Yeah.

But you still want that version to be like riveting horse. horrifying television and it just slightly, still slightly missed the mark for me there. Do you know? The, especially as the House of the Dragon TV series expands its focus, which characters are in the mix, which slices of the map are we visiting, et cetera, the propaganda aspect of it will become even more interesting. Like, I really, I love what you're, what you're calling out here. Like, it makes me think a little bit of, and it's interesting, this is an maybe odd character

to bring up because Sanis was such a infamous stick. But it makes me think a little bit of him, you know, saying, when Ned Stark learned the truth, he only told me, I'm not going to make that same mistake. Spread the word. Spread the word. That these are bastards born of incest. And the iron throne is mine by right. And think about, like, then how that becomes, right? Of course, this seismic threat, the legitimacy of the seat on the throne for John. and then eventually Tommin, and how SIRC, mostly, but the Lattisters at large, are operating against then that dawning public awareness of maybe who these kids really are until... Maybe how genetics work. Follicularly. The seed is strong until you build toward a point where they decide to embrace it, right? Power is power.

Fuck it if people know. Yeah. And that evolution of when you think you can evade the message that someone else is spreading about you gets back to kind of what you were talking about last week, right, with Amund with Jamie, or when you maybe have to say, I don't just try to own it. Yeah. Yeah. Wear it like armor.

Just another word like armor in a way. Fascinating. Joe, what would you say the response of the small folk is to this propaganda? Are they like in the Christopher Ryan? Oh, interesting. I'm feeling green curious right now, Camp. They seem to be quite converted. Yeah.

Rending of the garments. Yes. Supplication. Weeping and a wailing in the streets. Freely shouting that they would like to curse Renera's name and that they are feeling deeply for Helena, Dark Queen. crowd that she is there. We'll let her go home with Hugh. Hugh as a sick child and a wife who had to work hard to make that delicious looking soup. Yeah. But on her way to get the chicken or whatever. Do you think she was just like, this is on my route? Yeah. She's like, well, they block the streets. And she's like, oh, sad. It's like trying to get into this office with all the construction

in the morning. Sometimes you discover a new coffee shop on the way. Your commute is what you make of it, you know? Helena. Let's talk about what is going on with Helena. Panicistretch. Full on, full on panic attack. This was absolutely harrowing to watch. Devastating. Devastating.

Also, I think we have to be wondering in any given moment, especially that shot of her overhead. Looking up in the veil. Yeah. And the veil. Or were you like, has she seen literally this? Has she seen literally this? Or what is she seeing right now?

What's next? Do you know? Yeah. Oh, poor sweet Helena. From the funeral to the confession. Again, easy work for Laris. He shows up. Unroll the knives.

Blood gets one look at one plier. And he's like, it was Damon. And he's like, I've seen season one of alias. I don't want to go through this. It was Damon. Yeah. I worked with someone else. I can't tell you my accomplice's name,

but I am happy to give you his profession. But shout out Laris. Laris forever thinking of his own career. I really feel I love when he's like, are you going to hurt him? He's like, no. Shot through that moment, which I've rewatched nine times because I'm like

the world's number one Laris fan girl. An absolute monster, but I love him. Through the bars and just Matthew Needham's performance of like, no. But I cannot speak for his grace. But like, what a gift he's given Agon. Agon's going to remember this. Laris gave him this catharsis.

Otto's like, chill out and let me do my thing. And Laris is like, come beat this guy's head like a drum. I won't even touch him with a single plier. You get all the honors, my lord. I sent you a screenshot this morning of him. Just like, Laris just leaning back against the bars, like in just full relaxed mode about to watch up bludgeoning. He looks like he was having the time of his life.

It looked like an absolute renaissance. painting. It was gorgeous. Do you think blood was wearing shoes? Do you think Laris himself personally removed the shoes? Okay, let's head to Dragonstone. Where, for the first time ever, Damon Targaryen is quiet at a meeting. Couldn't be me. This is the reddest of flags. You thought there was a lot of blood on that blanket and on that mattress? No, this is the trench red warning in the episode, Damon, just like, More important, I mean, Mass-Miss Smirk game.

Unbelievable. Off the charts. Incredible. Wonderful. Wonderful. What got my blood boiling? Yeah. We're the men on the Black Council.

Oh, man. It's a bunch of dudes. Yeah. Rainy, you know, similar to what Allison said last week, you undercut me at the table of men. Right? So Allison's all alone. She's the only woman in the room. Reneer's here.

Renice is right there. Yep. And Renice is like, mind yourself. Yeah, chill. Yeah. Mind yourself. Yep. Bill is also, I think, there, right?

I think Bill is maybe down the table or maybe not. But anyway, the point is just these like, yeah, these fucking, these men. Yeah. This is why. I mean, here's the thing. Sir Alfred Broome. They have the right. Their finger is on the pulse of the nation.

Sure. In terms of the response. Like, they are right. But the insinuation. That part is appalling. They are right. to note that this is a disaster

for the blacks. Right. When Keltygar says that the damage to their position is immeasurable, I don't think that's overstated, but I agree completely, of course, that the way,

because Reneer is like, they think I did this? Like, I didn't do this. To Helena? To be Helena? To be the innocence? Yeah. To kill a kid

when I just lost my kid? Women be crazy. Who knows what they do when their sons are dead? Else. Sir Alfred. Fram. the grieving mom.

Like, you know, well, you're like just, you know, you got back from being really upset flying around on your dragon looking for your dead kid. And so, like, yeah, like, if you did it, I mean, you know, like, women? That was, I mean, Rineiro was rightly enraged. Yeah, this underscores, though, how important it is for Reney to have Rani's there. And as you mentioned in last week when we covered that episode, like, Rainees, a hard-won ally. Oh, yeah. Throughout and into the end of season one. But now that she's on Team Reneira, she is on Team Reneer.

Absolutely. Yeah. And ready, of course, from her own experience to hold the men in low esteem. Because she's seen how the men of the realm have behaved. And it was one of the things that she was warning Reneira about. So they would turn her up, put the realm to. The torch? Is that it?

Then see a woman sit the eye on throne. I mean, you know, like, spot the lie. Spot the lie. You can't yet. You can't. The expressions, we already mentioned Matt Smith, but there's a great Renice staring down. Damon moment.

She knows. She clocks it immediately. Rainies and Renner. The season transition look, or the season, the scene transition look into the next. Rina being like, huh? Huh? Incredible. That is just a genuinely incredible moment. I thought that was so funny. So let's go to then the private conversation and confrontation between Damon and Renera that look builds into the need for an exchange.

I really love this. I feel like I can't remember the circumstance, but I feel like last season we did have moments where we're like, why is this not a private conversation, how this conversation in private? So here we are in the, in the. in the privacy of Reneer's easily breachable room. Reneer is better at this in a lot of Game of Thrones characters. I remember so many moments where it's like, we need John and Sonsa to have a chap before they're in front of everybody, all of the assembled. That's the main one. Yeah.

Like, let's align. A little pre-pro before we get going. But, I mean, Renier, even in the season one finale, was like, leave us. We need to get on the same page here. So, yeah, this is an instinct that she has. Joe, scenes from an incest marriage, let's do it. Scenes from a marriage?

Scenes from an uncle and a niece. So we should point out, something we talked about last week is that all of this Reneira stuff is not in the book. Because as we pointed out last week, Reneira is indisposed from the absolutely traumatic, you know, stillbirth that she experienced. So she's just sort of like out of the action, not really mentioned. Which I love now, like, thinking about through the lens of or just the dudes who are pending the histories. Yeah. Only cared about what the guys did. Grieving mother.

Yeah. What was it say? Surely. She was just sitting in a bedchamba crying. Icing something. But, like, so anything we get from her last week, the one line, but all the, like, flying around. That's all new to us. And then this confrontation, her reaction at all to blood and cheese.

We talked about this on Talk of the Throne. We don't see Reneer's reaction to blood and cheese at all in the book. So her reaction of like, I would never do this. Yes, this is a object horror. Are you kidding me? Also, Damon in the book at this point has already fucked off to Harren Hall. So all of this whole sequence here is show invented and it is a gift. Delicious.

It is a gift. It is so good. So the first order of business is we watch this trust crumble between the uncle and the niece who are married to each other. Is Reneer asking what everybody who watched the show was asking last week? Right. What did Damon say? Exactly. And Damon is, has mentioned many times today already, not interested in accepting any responsibility for this.

It was a mistake. I was clear in my instruction. I was clear in my instruction. The, I cannot be responsible for a mistake. It's not just that it was a mistake. It's, I cannot be responsible for a mistake. I was clear in my instruction. This is just, and he doubles, triples, quadruples down on that stance throughout the entire exchange.

And Renira, flat out. It's not just that she, that they have reached a moment, like an impasse. Yeah. She just actually does not believe him. This has caused her to look at him. Oh, yeah. in a new way or to at least quiet the voice that used to talk her out of something that she may have observed. She probably already knew.

He has weakened her claim, she says. We can look around in the episode in this stretch and see how true that is. Emmeasurable. And the thing is, Damon's strengthening her claim in addition to that magnetic draw that they had to. The hot beach sex. Bells of a pleasure then. Beach sex at my wife's funeral. Very normal.

In addition to all of that. Yeah. The infatuation, the loss, the longing, the desire, the affection. Neat, like, needing Damon, which we talked a lot in season one about how he wanted to be needed. That was the whole thing, right? For him, it's like, I need you to need me. And for her, it's you strengthen my claim.

Right. You add a level of might and heft and legitimacy. All those symbols of legitimacy that Egon has, I have Damon Targaryen on my side. So for Damon now, to not be providing my uncle. My uncle, the prince of the city. I'm dead serious about this. He was once the air. I'm now the air.

That's like double air. I need you, uncle. I cannot face the greens alone. So like that was a huge part of this for her. what Damon gave her, brought her, and how he bolstered her claim and her push. But that's the thing about- And now it's- But that's the thing about Damon always.

Yes. The very famous quote about Damon, like, you know, to some a hero, to others a villain. Like that's Damon's whole thing. The line that I think I quoted on Talk of Thrones, but I'll hit it again from Fire and Blood, one of the chief pillars of support for Nira's claim was her consort. Yet Prince Damon represented one of her greatest weaknesses. as well. The prince had made more foes than friends during the course of his adventures. So that's always, Damon is, you know, two steps forward, two steps back.

And I think it's interesting because Renera actually has always understood that. The way that she flew against orders to the bridge on Dragonstone in episode two and challenged him in a way that no one else was able to, right? But like they matched each other as she says when she was a child. Now I have challenges. Her emotional maturity matched his emotional emotional. majority when she was a child. Now she knows a bit better like, sorry I does. Yeah.

Yeah. So she saw that, she saw that and understood that clearly and felt that she could work with it, leverage it, amplify it, right? That they were going to be a Mentos in a Coke bottle in a great way, right? Like the kind of explosion that propelled forward. That's how I always describe our podcast partnership. That does it a Coke bottle. But it's like Mentos and Diet Coke bottle because that one goes, that's even more explosive.

Is that true? Oh, yeah. There's just even more, you should never drink this, but sometimes I do drink it. Noxious chemicals that make the Mentos go that much further. Interesting. Yeah. Should we try it? In what way?

Just like get a couple liters here. Well, probably not around all of this. Beautiful well-appointed studio. Okay. Parking garage? There's a lot of space here. Jomi's ear. Jomi just heard like social content?

Exactly. Sounds like a breakout clip to me. Let's talk about the presence of Vassaris in the scene. He is not literally in the room because he is dead. But he's in the room in all the ways to count, Joe. Looms. Looms. Looms.

He is there in their thoughts. He is there in their words. He is there in their ambitions and their desires and their regrets and their resentments. His presence is inescapable. Just the way that Reneer is definitely there in the room with Kristen and Allison. Slightly differently. But, like, yeah, that like that. third present in the room.

That is, that is, that is, this eras. Damon says that he has served Renera faithfully. And she says, uh, was I just a tool with which to grasp it your stolen inheritance? And she just states it plainly here, the steam of the episode. I cannot trust you, Damon. I loved Emma's reading of this line. Yeah.

Because there's like, and there's a boldness here and then the quiet. There's boldness. There's frustration. But there's also just like disappointment. Yeah. I cannot trust you. It's one of the great letdowns of her life. I want you to support me, and I cannot trust you.

You reach the point where you can't talk yourself out of it anymore, right? You got to look at it plainly. I cannot trust you. Emma talking about the conversations that they had with Claire Kilner about this idea of like female rage and how much Ranira kept a lid on it in season one and how now the pot is like starting to boil over occasionally. And we're seeing sort of that lid rattle on the emotions and the race. and the rage that she's not making herself, like, smooth and pleasant, you know. Not that she always was, to your point.

Veseris certainly never would have called her that, like, pleasant or pliable or something like that. But, like, to Damon. You are my political headache. Yeah. So you always say to me. You are my political headache. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So great.

Viseras, we've talked a lot about it, and we will again, in this very conversation. right here, Vassaris and Damon in season one, in season one episode one, when Vassaris sends Damon away. And the parallels to that scene in this conversation are abundant. But the other fight, the episode four fight, after the bowels of a pleasure, dad. You can't keep getting away with it. I can't keep getting away. I'm going to light. What did Vassaris say to Damon?

Arjuna, can I have a little? Spray bottle, please. This is, to orient you if you cannot remember, this is short haircut, Damon. That's right. That's right. But let me give you my treasured crown. Yeah, treasure crown, Damon. You are no conqueror.

You are a plague sent to destroy me. The Viserus Damon relationship that brotherly love, their desire to be with each other, to forgive something in the other, nobody else around them was willing to forgive. but then the moment where you have to say to the other person, you are a blake sent to destroy me. That is this moment for Renira now with Damon. He charges toward her and his hand is up and it is, I think, impossible for us not to flash back to the finale.

Yeah, and her flinch is sort of perfect. And then he, like, puts like a loving hand on her face, but the trust is broken. Yeah. And there's that duality of Damon again in a moment like that. One of our listeners, Andrea, noted that this scene, the way it's blocked out, is almost like a tango, the way that they're, like, just sort of drawn together and separate, like, across the set here. And I just love thinking about it that way.

It is, like, it is devastating and horrifying to watch this, this connection fall apart. But there is still always between them this passion. Yeah. And a rhythm. A rhythm. A rhythm. A rhythm. And a desire for connection.

There's desire there. Yeah. And the dance? Of the dragons? Of the dragons. Why would they call it a dance? Oh, Stannis. Oh, man.

So Damon recounts as he makes his way to runiery here. Placing the crown on her head. Did I not? Did I not put that there? Did I not say to wall of the queen? No. Oh, oh, Eric, RIP. I swear as a wall of the queen.

But he did, right? And of course, for him, that represents something more than just the motion and the action. It is the choice that he made. It is a promise that is entwined in that action. And, of course, it makes us think of one of our favorite moments, maybe our favorite moment from season one, episode eight, the crown falling off of Saras's head and Damon picking it up and saying to his brother, come on. Like, everyone else has given up on you.

And I, come on. They might think that I'm not the person who supports you. They might think I'm the one who's trying to undermine you. You might think that, but I'm the one who's going to be here to pick you up. This is Damon. This is why he's such an incredible character. All of these things are true about him. He can keep his tongue.

Oh, man, you have no allies that court but me. That's what Vassar said to him in the season one fight. I have only ever defended you, yet everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face. We often spend our time talking about the other part of it, which is Damon's reply. You've only ever tried to send me away to the veil, to the City Watch. To the City Watch anywhere, but by your side, because that tells us so much about Damon. Yeah. But that Vassaris line, everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face, it plants us, it roots us in what Renira is feeling here.

But to your point about Agon, like, and the vulnerabilities or the empathetic moments we have for him, like, I do believe that there is. is, and I would even say a majority part of Damon, that just wants to show his support and affection. But he is confident that his way is the only right way, and his way is a quite aggressive and volatile way. But I believe, and that's what makes Damon such a compelling figure because he's not just like a posturing, sniggering villain. He is someone who genuinely wants to support his brother, his wife, slash niece.

like, you know, while also grooming his wife slash niece while also, you know, fucking up his brother's life by doing this, that, and the other thing, you know? And so... I agree completely. I think the fact that he thinks that he knows best, that he knows better, which is part of what we're going to hear in a moment,

doesn't actually diminish the fact that he does want to stand there by their side and be the trusted one to help. Like when he says to Viseras in season one of Otto, So he doesn't protect you, I would. He is pained. The Vesaris doesn't see that. Part of what is... He'll support you.

He just won't be obedient to you. Right. Exactly. There's the... Of course, builds toward the wonderful Rennie Scorla's conversation. But that's part of what feels so palpable to Damon here, not just the really hurtful things he's about to say to Reneira. Not just the fact that he wants to support you.

He wants to be Vesaris's hand. He wants to be Reneira's right hand. He does still think that he would do a better job, but he wants to be able to support the people he loves. He is devastated that they don't appreciate that, right? Because that's the thing that he has to give. And so, like, that moment in season one, when he's observing the small council conversation,

and Otto's like, you know, gods if he has to make a man who doesn't have the... Who lacks the patient for action. absolute power. And Viserra says that he doesn't want the throne and he's like scoffs. There's like that little like, but it always struck me is like an appreciative chuckle. Right. He gets me. Yeah. Yes. And like he'll, this is still the same character. He'll say to Corlis in season one episode two. It was never my brother strong and straight. What? Being king. Or he'll tell, he will tell Viseras to his face. Like, he doesn't, he doesn't protect you. I would from what?

Your self. You're weak, Viseras. Like this again. It's this push-pull. He thinks that Vassaris is weak. He thinks that Reneer-up is prone to this same weakness that he believes undermine Viseris' regime completely. Really important question for you. Do you think Vagar thinks Amo this week? Because I just love thinking about this comp of Damon as like the uncontrollable dragon

for Vassaris and for, like, he brings them power. He will win a war. He will, you know, drag the crab feeder and somehow, you know, not get ill from it, like all this sort of stuff. Like, he will do this. He will act as your steel fist if you prefer. He will be your dragon. But if he sees a juicy little snack, he's going to chomp.

Well, like, my instinct when you first asked the question is Vagar wouldn't let a weak rider claim her, but then you can spin it immediately and say, maybe Vigar wants to be in control. Yeah. I think that's what's so fascinating about the mythology of the dragon bond. I quoted this line all the time in season one, but like that fire and bloodline, who can know the mind of such a beast,

you can just apply that to deem it. It's a perfect cop. I love it. Reneera asks him, do you accept me as your queen and ruler? Not the realms, yours specifically. Are you willing to say that I am actually the one in charge? And then an already very tense and fraud exchange

devolves further. Steve, can we hear this? Or do you cling even now to what do you think you lost? But I think I lost. You did not lose it, you gave it away. Because you thought ever and only of your own glory, and not of my father in his group. Your father was a coward.

Who knew I was the stronger son, that I was the leader of men, and he was afraid to be seen in my shadow. Is that what you understand of your own brother? You know him better than I do. Who was raised at his side? Do you believe he made you air because of your great wisdom,

because of your virtue? How dare you? Or did he merely use you as a tool to put me in my place because he was afraid of me? Because he knew your legacy, unlike mine, would never outshine his own. He was not afraid of you, Damon.

He could not trust you any more than I can trust you. I was a fool. You sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it and I see you will suffer the same fate. You struck down a child? It was a mistake. Oh, man.

Unbelievable scene. When he says, when he goes, afraid of me, he sounds so Doctor Who 11 to me in that moment. That's such like an 11, 11 line to me. Oh, man. I love Renierke calling him pathetic even after he has, like, smashed all the crockery and, like, you know, made her flinch and all. You know what I mean? Like, it's just sort of she's like.

Well, like the way she kind of whispers it, it's almost like she's saying it to herself as much as to him. Like it's a moment of discovery for her. Yeah. I'm seeing this. I'm seeing you in this clearly. Oh shit. I married someone pathetic. Yeah.

Oops. Remember Harwin Strong. He seemed pretty cool. Ah, break bones. The Vesaris drunken bonfire scene with Alicent. Yeah. Season one, episode three. I named her to protect the realm from Damien.

She was my only child, the realm's delight. I named her out of love because I no longer believed. Now, there's a lot of stuff going on here from Rosarius. He's talking about believing in the idea that his son will sit the throne. And guess what? Born wearing the gunkerous crown. His son will sit the crown. Yeah, he got the gunker on, man.

He stopped believing that oops he had a son, but he already named his daughter. What a bind. What a pickle. Oh, man, this scene is just unbelievable. I think that a lot of what Damon says here is vicious and hideous and wrong. But. As is always the case of Damon. There's a colonel.

There's an element of truth. Yeah, yeah. Because what he's saying about, but also I hate that he said, your virtue, your wisdom, who took her virtue in the bowels of said pleasure den? Well, and also, like, the idea that those would be weaponized as, like, diminishments or unworthy qualities. Yeah, I mean, I hate that anyway as, like a benchmark for anything. But still, like, if we're going to wield it, then let's talk about who tarnished it. But also, like. In the bowels of a pleasure.

In the bowels of literature den. But like Otto, I love that Otto and Damon who hate each other. Wither cock. To the marrow. Rumors farce. What? Where now? That they hate each other.

But they're doing the exact same thing. Yes. To the monarchs that they have propped up. Yes. Is being like, oh, you think it was you? Right. Oh, you think Viseris chose you? Right.

Right. Daddy didn't love you. Right. That's totally. That's such a great call. The part specifically about, oh, is that? I can't wait to talk about that. He was a fool who sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it. This is why Viseris, the peaceful being the moniker that has carried on is is so rich and ironic. Like, Viseris the indecisive. Moldering. Vesaris, the Lego builder. Vesaris, the skin sloshing. The conversation between Vesaris and Linald. Yeah. In the fifth episode of the first season. Will I be remembered as a good king? This student of history obsessed over, really honestly, the same thing that Damon is voicing here, right?

There is a part of me that wishes I'd been tested. I often think that in the crucible I may have been forged a different man. He just didn't recognize the test that was in front of him. I mean, yes. And also it's like he's the one who's just like, oh no, my dragon died. I guess I don't have a dragon now. Like, you know, Vesaris is a Targaryen, you know. And I like him.

And I love building Legos. And that's great. I mean, same. But like. As you know, I love the Lego. But something we love to track in our coverage of season one is how many mistakes Viseris made. Exactly. And how his.

desire for short-term peace really destroyed the prospect of long-term piece. And again, to get to that larger through line of the tragedy of how the characters who should be aligned, claim to be aligned, can't quite get on the same page. This would be a thing

that Damon and Reneira should talk about. Like, what mistakes did Vassaris make? Yeah. How can we avoid them? Yeah, yeah. can we avoid them? But they are unable to have a productive conversation because these observations just end up being daggers that they hurled at each other. Speaking of hurled daggers, do you ever wish when you, let's say, are on an episode

The Rwatchables or some other show, certainly not our show, where you have like a major disagreement with someone, you just like really like walk away, like, we did not see it, yeah, yeah. Do you wish you could just hop on your long, wormy red dragon and fly off and up? Of course, though I like to think that I would still acknowledge my daughter. Be like, Bayla, I'm heading out, mounting the bloodworm again. Time to put the armor on and go. I would say that to Beala. Yeah.

Also, if you're in the mood, say it to Jason Jof, say to Raina. And how about you smoot your little blonde babies before you go? This is a- Damon, bad dad all around. A hoffy, pouty exit from Damon is so tough, but when he puts out armor on and mounts caraxies and flies away. You're like, let's fucking go. Let's go. Let's go. Off to Heron Hall.

Let's go. Yeah, you think, do you think he's off to pursue that toehold, finally? Or does he just like, let's go back to Pentos? That would be great. 9,000 Harriton. mentions, but like, yeah, you know what? Was the wine and pinto so bad after all, this amber shit? Swill.

Speaking of Bela, she is getting an assignment from Reneira. Dad does not say hello in the hallway. Baila walks in. Broken crockery on the ground. Observes the carnage. Here goes dad again. Not ideal. Asks Reneer, where Damon is going.

She says, he must follow his own path, and it made me think. of when Jace basically asked this exact question at the end of season one, where's damon? Gone to madness, gone to plot his war. It's so funny. Inspired by you and the Duncan Egg casting news, I've been like rereading, actually re-listening if you've never listened to the Night of Seven Kingdoms audiobooks narrated by the great Harry Lloyd. It's just like 10 out of 10 audiobook.

But like the Targaryans in that, in those stories and just thinking like more and more about the flip of the coin and madness and greatness as two signs of the Targaryen life. We're getting an all-timer and Dunkin Egg. Yes. But like these are because Ryan Condal is interested in telling like a much more nuanced version than what we get in Fire. and blood. We're getting degrees of this, right? We're getting nuanced. We're getting degrees. But it is, you know, Gone to Madness, I think, is a great, you know. Yeah, ping something for us, the Targaryans. Absolutely. Reneer's mission for Bela, take Moon Dancer. Yeah. Bayla's Dragon. Two dangers for Jace.

High. Don't get too close. Stay high. You can't afford any more mistakes, but I need you to keep an eye on Kings Landing, comings and goings. What did you make of this? Is there any part of you that was willing to say there's something nice about this, that Reneira trust Bela, that Reneira sees Bela as a capable Dragon Rider and warrior and member of the team.

How are you, what percentage are you putting on that and what percentage are you putting on Jase asked to do literally this, right? He said, send me up on Virmax, and she said, no. Like, I lost a son.

I'm not losing another. She's willing to risk Bela's life, but not Jases. And that's fucked up. Yeah. I think it's 30% I have confidence in you and 70% I'm not putting my air up there, my trueborn son, etc. There's also the element, I mean, it's the like, do you risk the air versus do you risk your wonderful, very competent stepdaughter slash soon to be hopefully daughter-in-law that is Bela? But also are they as likely to attack Bela as they are to attack? I don't think we're yet at like, I'm sure some kids have died. But don't you think Baila is like children die all the time, right? But don't you think that like Baila?

That's the last of us reference for anyone who's like, what the fuck is wrong with you two? Ooh. Oh, man. Don't you think Baila is just like slightly safer? A slightly, a target there's slightly less likely to attack than Jace? Interesting. Jase, her direct air. I guess I could see why that would be what someone talked themselves into.

I just think it's like the herb in the soup. It's not the chicken in the soup. It's like the urban. It's in there. Yeah. I think for us's viewers, though, we're like, you can't put. This is one of the lessons so far of the story is that you can't assume anything about anyone else. Like, we'll send you, if you go, you're going as envoys, not warriors.

The Baratheans, this should be the short, easy trip. How'd that go? Eric, you're going to glory. To glory. A murder. I don't know, but it's also like for us as viewers. Obviously, Reneira doesn't have this information, though, again, I do think that we should assume that Reneera and everybody there is. assuming that the greens are prepping just as they are, right?

What's Renair's response to blood and cheese? It's like, let's double the guard. So everybody's on, everybody is ready all the time for violence. I just still think, I agree. I just still think that Jace is like... I think if Reneer is like you're not going to be in harm's way? I really think if they have a priority list of targets, it's Reneer number one, Damon number two, Jace number three, Rainey's number four, Bayla at the

bottom of the list. Yes. But if you mount your dragon and you go into the sky, you're not safe. And Reneira should know that. She does know that. Tough one. Tough one. I like the 30-70 split.

There is a nice little, I believe in you. Yeah. But also it's like, I can risk you and not Jace. It's tough. Sisters are doing it for themselves, but also protect the air. I will say I am just unbelievably excited to see a moon dancer next week. Oh, yeah. We've gotten some trailer shots.

Trailer glimpse. There's Moon Dancer, wonderful, like, veining of the wings. Yeah. It's very exciting. So that's wonderful. And we got a little glimpse in the tease at the end of the episode for next week. And Moon Dancer looks awesome. So excited about that.

Quick little, like, interlude of comings and goings at the Red Keep and Dragonstone. This is a fascinating moment. Okay. The stairs. So it's Agon and Helena passing each other on the stairs. Agon coming down, Helena going up. Still does not have a single guard on her. This is a disaster.

Agon has two. She has none. Kristen Cole, what are you doing? Wait, I know what you're doing. Okay, anyway. So that happens. They have this like moment. Yeah. They stop and they look at each other. And they don't talk to each other and Helena like gives herself sort of like a little nod and keeps going. What's very fascinating is Tom Glencarnie's interpretation of this moment is that it's a shared moment of understanding between them. And my interpretation was the exact opposite that these emotionally stunted children do not. know how to connect with each other. I have not seen any episodes in the future. I genuinely don't know if this is true. When I heard that on the inside of the episode, my honest response was like, because I assume they interview them and they just talk about like the season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, that line didn't belong here. That's what I thought about that. I don't know. That's just that, that was. You think it's a reference to a scene we haven't seen yet?

That was my only interpretation. I just felt odd as a way to describe this. Now, I do think there was something that passed between them that was fascinating for us to try to understand and consider. And you're like, does he want to go and comfort her, but doesn't know how? Like, they are, they're not just husband and wife, they're brother and sister. And they're quite young. They're young people who have gone through horrors and trauma. But also, and like, does he want to comfort her because he knows that she is mourning and he is grieving and he is not receiving comfort from anyone. Only instruction. Right. Only handling.

This thing that they could... Or does he blame her? Oh, probably. It's somewhere in his little... Does he blame her? Because she was there. And that would be horrible and wrong. But it was impossible for me not to wonder, is he holding her to account? I mean, regardless, Team Green, and this is meant to stand in contrast to Jason Bela, who we're going to get to. But this is just like, we are constantly, because we're bouncing back and forth between Kings Landing and Dragonstone, we're constantly...

We're constantly comparing contrasting dynamics between these various families. We're all one family. And Jason Bela and we'll talk about those sweet kids and the amount of support they're able to give each other. Yeah. Yes. And Team Green, as much as I am not Team Green, it's just so sad to watch them. It's devastating. They don't have anyone.

Yeah. We go from the comedy of like the Queen is an enduring mystery, is she not last week, to this moment. And it's later in the episode. but when we see Allison unable to comfort Egon. Yeah. Right. Or Otto, I do not wish to hear of it. This is exactly.

Exactly. This then is just that next. Oh, yeah. Down and down the shit spills, right? Otto can't properly comfort Allison. Allison can't properly comfort Egon. Egon can't properly comfort his sister slash wife. None of them know how to care for or tend to the other person.

I'm sure he on some level laments that he is not able to receive some sort of like nurturing tender touch, but he's also not able to provide that. And that's devastating. There's other stuff coming and going here, passing. Yeah, it's the king and the queen. It's a bloody mattress and the absolutely incompetent lord commander soon to be handed the king. Yes. The look on his face as he sees the blood-drenched mini mattress.

A flash of empathy. I felt it. Brutal stuff here. High comedy when the guy who's carrying. the matcher soaked in the dead child's blood is like, please move. Please move. Please move. And then this is where we get the little moment we talked about earlier with Agon and Vassaris.

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Dot sweetgreen.com. Bath time. No spray bottles, but baths aplenty. Allison's still not letting any of Lairns is carefully handpicked and spies. Bath her. And there was something about, seeing her. Again, I think the show is so deft in these little glimpses and moments. Something like watching her have to. Like scrabble at her own ties. Yes. Figure out how to take her dress off on her own. There's that tension of like, is she going to ask Kristen to do it for her, you know? All he hears in that hallway is the crackle of the flame right here and the rustle of fabric inside the Queen's Chambers. Oh, I thought you meant the rustle of fabric as his erection rises.

That sounds like a comment I would make, right? And definitely not a lot. comment even me? She goes to him. She does. But she doesn't say, hey, pick up this washcloth. Join me. She says, have you told anyone? What do you take me for? One who seeks absolution. And he says there is none for what I've done. Now, we're about to watch him go send Eric on his mission. So we're going to talk about

both Allison and Kristen and their guilt and what they're carrying here. But just very quickly. What do you take me for? Someone who sung like a canary to me when I didn't even ask you if you had sex with Renaira. I didn't even have to roll out my torture tools and wave a plier in your direction. You freely confessed because you did not totally understand the conversation we were. Thick as a castle wall. Like did not. You are listening to Dunkin' Egg.

I am. Like did not. Don't belong. It's a castle wall. Did not get at all what Allison was going for. He's like, yep, I did it. I had sex with her. Oh, was that not what you were asking?

Oops. If you as a clement queen, the fact that he is guarding her door here, we just have to talk about this for a second, because this is actually insane. It should not still be his job. No. He's the Lord Commander. It shouldn't have been his job. As Eric will soon point out, after Helena ascended, Eric with an A, Eric with an A, the fact that after Jeharis was murdered, after blood,

God. He's still standing guard over Allison as everyone else walks around unprotected. This is just astonishing. Okay. So, we talked about this on Talk to the Thrones. But by the way, Allison's the one who tries to spill the beans later. She's like, have you told anyone? Yeah. In a little while from now, I'm going to try to tell my dad he's not going to be interested. But like, again, this is projection. The only, so the only thing I'll say about that is in addition to the very rich projection. as you note. I think that Allison, like that struck me, and especially we talk of her piety, we talk of her faith,

like that struck me as her version of confession. Yeah. Where, but she believes that that will be, she will be able to unburden herself and that won't go any further. But like, because Otto is always thinking about

house high tower above all and he would guard that secret. It's the old like, is there no one here at all? I would, for me idea. I don't think she thinks Aldo's going to spill a bean. She doesn't, if Kristen tells someone who knows. But it's something he has over her. I would go see my local clergy. I mean, I would go up and see

my minister if I were her and not tell my dad who is any political operator. Absolutely. And she has been in his power enough to know that and has called him out on that. That how could I know, right? Exchange that they have at the end of season one. But I think that she can at least trust in the fact that he, while that will be a weapon that he can wield against her. that he won't spread that further because it doesn't behoove him or benefit their family to do that. But if Kristen's-keleton out of there. But she wants Kristen. And anyway, it's just stupid to talk to Otto about this.

Yeah, it's odd. Alicent needs some trusted companions other than Otto and Kristen Cole. I do love the stretch at the end of the episode where we see Alicent with Otto, Allison with Egon, Allison with Kristen. And it's like, what a serious. of completely toxic misfired up relationships.

Okay, speaking of toxic relationships, Allison and Kristen, their guilt, their shame, everything than just driving them. Again, Kristen Cole, the fictional character.

Yes. We hate him. Yes. The way, we chatted about this on Sunday night, but the way that because Chris was like, well, take me through Kristen's sins,

right? The way that Allison has been present throughout this journey as either the person he is confessing to after the dalliance with Rainira as the person who comes in to stop him from killing himself in the godswood after he kills Joffrey, Lonmouth at the pre-wedding feast. Joffrey's face off. Clean off his face. Gone.

She's there when he shoves a small ball through, well, it's more like he shoves Biesbury's heads through the small ball, honestly. Sit down. Throw down your sword and move your cloaks, Sir Kristen. Shout out, Lord Commander Westerling. He really did try to fire Kristen. Sir Harold. I miss him.

Yeah. I miss him. And so Allison has been there to witness these clokes sullying moments. I mean, again, if Damon is the uncontrollable, we've said this a million times, if Damon is the uncontrollable dragon on or off Rainer's leash, this is the dog on Allison's leash is Kristen Cole. Berser rage. I sent you a screenshot over the weekend of this like this one of the many great Fabian

Frankl and Matt Smith like answering questions for HBO and it's like if you could give your character one piece of advice and he was like stop murdering everyone. Chill out. It doesn't have to be like this. Also definitely stop doing it in front of everyone. else. Do your murders in private, Kristen, like everyone else? I was about to say, invest in a murder cloak, but he would be like, will this little hat do? Oh, man. The hat. All right. Let's go with Kristen Tide Pen Cole. I'm calling him Tide Pen Cole because he wants that cloak to be. A Tide pen won't do it. No, no. Not at this point. Not at this point. He is a mission for Sir Eric, who, worked all night doing something other than fucking the Dowager Queen

is exhausted, is hungry, he just wants to eat his breakfast in peace and has to suffer through this, the fact that this is one of the final thing. I mean, think of the end of Sir Eric with Inay's life. This conversation with Kristen I hope the ship journey was smooth.

I doubt it. I hope it was smooth sailing. I doubt it. I mean, there's a blockade. You're right. No more than a piece here at the end. He's on a black-friendly ship. It's just, I really, you know what I can't.

I seriously can't shake that they're all still wearing the same armor. Oh, it's. Like, this is really, when we go through the list of errors. We've rebranded the sigils, but we can't spray paint the armor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Egonne has the new sigil on the show.

And the book for Nira has also rewark for sigil. It's the old Renli like it would be, I suppose it would be confusing, right? Yeah. You're Kingsguard and your queen's guard. and they include twins. I mean, the twins aside, I guess the point is sort of like, why should I change my guard's armor? I'm the rightful, like, this is the armor they've worn for hundreds of years and will continue to wear, similar to the starts. They are not changing this armor.

So it's like, why should I change? Yeah. Though I think once the sigils change, that's all. That's done. If you're changing the Targaryen sigil, I mean, that is. It's the symbol of might in the realm. I mean, I guess. What's some Kingsguard armor at that point?

It's really high tower propaganda that's happening over there. Okay. Kristen has some notes on the hem of Eric with an A's cloak. Some dirt from the funeral procession for the dead air who died. I'm not sure if you have been keeping tabs on this while Kristen was fucking Allison. Oh, is that what he was saying? A bad! And Kristen would like Eric with an A to clean this clothes.

cloak, gel. The white cloak is a symbol of our purity, a fidelity. Kings God or a sacred trust will you so easily sell our ancient Anna. And of course, we think back to the fight, the parting, the parting of the ways with Reniro and she did not want to eat oranges and sniff cinnamon. And he said, I took a note. Is that what you think you wanted to do with the cinnamon? Sniff it? I don't know, maybe this is paste it, sniff it. Sprinkly it on the oranges. Dust it on. All sorts of body parts. carts and foodstuffs. I took an oath as a knight of your King's Guard, an oath of chastity. I've broken it. I've soiled my white cloak. It is the only thing I have to my fucking name.

This is what is plaguing Kristen, raised to a station, raised to the Kings Guard, Byronier, the highest honor. It's my name. For Annie Cole. Sorry. And Eric, Eric with an A, will shortly say to him, hey, this is what our vow actually means, right? And that's not the thing that Kristen's interested in. Not actually. Right. Deceptions. Lies, deceptions, boy, go it. That's not what the Kingsguard is about. Kristen doesn't give a shit about that. Yeah. But the thing in his head, this symbol that he never thought he would hold in his hands and has a tainted. And the only way that he can absolve this saying to Allison, absolutely, there's none for me anymore. But that doesn't stop him from behaving this way from trying to put that white sheen back around the thing that he tries to. chipped away at. There is no

moment that I have been more angry at Kristen Cole. Like, Kristen Cole is so delightful to hate because of the hypocrisy. There's the violence. A lot of people do violence. There's this, you know, there's like, you know,

fucking the Queen when you shouldn't, plenty of people, fuck people they shouldn't on this show, you know, the things they do for love, etc. You know. But it's the So many vows? It's the hypocrisy. Hypocrisy really. So our listener, Anna, who is a like a PhD student in Christian art or studying something around the Virgin Mary, which I think is fascinating, wrote this. She writes, Krispy's obsession with the white cloaks while blood of innocence stains the white bed clothes is chef's kiss love to hate.

In this same episode, the integrity of the white cloak is rent into as two identical twin brothers kill each other while wearing identical white cloaks. The image of bloodstained bed clothes has a rich history in Christian. in art. The absence of blood in typically bloody scenes often signified purity in gendered terms. In images of the birth of the Virgin Mary, white blood clothes are held up as proof of Mary's miraculous birth and her immaculate conception. There were, of course, traumatic images of childbirth many time in season one. Again, again, the blood spilled on white clothing was the blood of innocence, children, mothers and childbirth, etc. So yeah, I love this idea of like The blood-soaked mattress, the, like, we talked last week about Allison and this sort of, like, scrubbing out, out-dam-spot, like, sort of Lady Macbeth, it'll never be clean moment. If Kristen turned any of that inward, I would have, like, so much more empathy for him.

Right. But the fact that he just sort of tries to pour his shit downhill on Eric, who, as you have pointed out. Yeah, it's your fault. Eric, it's your fault. Where were you? Just trying to eat his breakfast. Yeah. after getting mud on his cloak from attending the, you know, pageantry funeral, doing his job.

I really enjoyed Eric with an A spinning this back on Kristen. Like, where were you? A bad! A bad! That was great. And calling out the absurdity of Helena's lack of protection, you toasted these guys on Talk the Thrones. But the way that the other... You guys piece out of there.

like, don't make eye contact. He's mentioning his traitor. He's mentioning his traitor brother now. Let's go. We can hold the balls. It does not serve us to stay here. No eye contact. Do not get drawn in.

So funny. And then Kristen hatches his plot. We get that. We will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin line right out of fire and blood. The line that comes after, we will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin in the book, is the instrument. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard chose for the King's Vengeance. was his sworn brother Sir Ariq Cargo. Instrument, I think, is such like a tool.

Yeah. Yeah. That I'm going to use. Which is like, again and again, what was told to Aegon, what is told to Reneira is like you're just a device. We hear it from Reneer in this episode, right? Or have you used me as a tool? Exactly.

With which to grasp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We are sworn to Sir forthrightly. Not to traffic and deception. That's what Eric with an A says. Unfortunately, he is instead going to have to impersonate.

his twin. Kristen says, so Eric says, Eric says, you would send me to my death. Yeah. Kristen says, Or to triumph and glory, which is real a Morton Joe Valhalla.

Oh yeah. Yeah. To the war boy's shit. Yes. So manipulative. But even that, he doesn't really, I don't think he actually

believes that that's reaching Eric with an A for a second because he just ends it by saying, or do I have to. Stitch on you. Do I have to go talk to the king? Yeah. I mean, that's actually closer to Dolores-Umbridge being like,

sounds like you've a problem with the ministry. Is that what we're doing here? I love to think of Kristen Cole and like a pink bow. I think it would just suit his personality. What would Eric with an A be writing over and over again as it appeared on the back of his hands? I swear to the king. Joanna. All right.

Would you join me for a tender interlude with Jason Bela? Too many empty seats at this table. Where were you at supper? I looked for you at the Trident. This was so sweet. This honestly was so sweet. She's going to find Bela because she wasn't at dinner. Everyone's got other stuff on their minds.

A lot of dead people. It's time for crossbow practice, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah, et cetera. Amusing, I assume, Harren Hall. Bit with her discussing where David went. Great stuff. Yeah. And then they speak of father's Joe.

And Bala says of Damon. Sometimes I think I hate him. Listen. I mean, she was the favorite daughter when they were over on Pintos. Yeah. But Dragon Rider. Lina wanted to go home and Damon, like, Bela's mom wanted to go home. And Damon was like, no.

Right. And. So you think some of Renice's bitterness toward Damon. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, like, Reynes, who's seen most? often with Baila and Raina, it's Raines. Yep.

You know? And Raines does not strike me as the kind of grandmother who would refrain from shit-talking their dad. No, certainly not. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, sometimes I hate him.

And then we broke all of this down on Talk to Thrones, but I think it's worth going through, again, the, like, careful language of this scene. Absolutely. When they're talking about fathers, right? Trick-a-thaghings fathers. You know, and Bella asks about, she's like, what do you remember my uncle? Yes. Laynor.

And that's a true thing. He was her uncle. He was not Jace's father. But he was a father figure. He was his father. Just not his biological father. Yeah. He was a father. And I think the affection with which Jace responds to that. Oh, yeah. Seashions? Yeah. C. Cs. Yeah. C. Cache? Yeah. Fishing? Fought us had a fish. The dream. There's like a love and there's a smile on his face as he's reminiscing and remembering Lainor and what he was to them. A father who was present and that. And of course, she asks about his other father. She doesn't say that either. She just says, what of Harwin Strong? She doesn't say your other father, right?

She just asks him about Harwin Strong. Which is almost more, in other hands, it's the most inciting language possible. Three Strong Boys. Like, to use that name would call up all of the horrors and the undermining moments from season one from other people. But that's not how she means it. Not at all. At all. And it's not how he means.

greets it. We mentioned this is on Talk to Thrones, but I think, again, it's worth remembering this exchange from Drift Mark, the episode in season one, when they're at Lena's funeral. Yes. Right? Yep. So Bail is mother's funeral. And Renieras says to Jace, your little cousins have lost their mother. They could use a kind word. And little Jace says, I have an equal claim to sympathy because my guy, Larry Strong, killed his dad and his brother when they were a bed. Okay. Curse Castle. Yeah.

Sure. She says, Jay says, we should be at Harenhall mourning Lord Lionel and Sir Harwin. And Rainier says it would not be appropriate. The Valerians are our kin and the Strongs are not. Look at me. Do you understand? Because this is life and death. Yes, exactly.

Yeah. this is your claim to the throne. This is our safety is in this blatant lie. Yeah. We're trotting around that you are somehow Leonor's son and not Harwin's strong son. Right. So he was never able to claim his own father. Yeah. Yeah. Publicly. And even when it was just the two of them, and at the end of the prior episode, when Harwin goes away, and Little Jace says like, is Harwin strong my father? And you're a Targaryen. That's what matters. Do you have the talking points straight?

And again, like out of protection, right? Because the danger was so real. But the fact that like even in a private conversation with Reneira, Jace could not acknowledge this truth, it just makes this moment with Bela all the more impactful. Right. Because he responds to that question with he was gentle and fierce. They called him breakbones. He loved us, I think.

And like the fact that he feels safe with her, that she felt safe enough to ask him, that he felt safe enough to answer, the comfort. It's such a stark contrast on the trust front, shatter trust everywhere else. Well, here's trust intact and only growing. Yeah. And that's a lovely and important counterweight to so much of the horror elsewhere. I think also just this, it goes back to my, again, I have a lot of empathy for Allison to the way she was raised in the position that she was put in and all of that. But the fact that Allison's and Kristen's like meddling and autos broke up this like extremely functional happy family where Lainor was happy and got what he

wanted and Harwin and Reneira were happy and had what they wanted. And the boys had two father figures who loved them and Reneira. And this was just like, everyone had figured it out. who were they hurting in all of this? And Alicent and Kristen and Otto for various different reasons where like this cannot stand. And for Alicent especially because she has less of the like she's not scheming politically like her father, but she has the like I cling to the tenants of the church for guidance. So then it becomes this like conservative religious movement, which is just all the more aggravating to consider. And these two men lost their lives. Well, not Lomar, but...

Just out there. Carl. I mean, who knows? Years have fast. Sea Smoke. Who knows what they're up to? Anything else, Joe, on the Jason Bela front? I thought we would take a moment and talk about Jason Bela

and the various ways in which they're related. This is a great one. Okay. They are stepbrother and step sister. Yes. So that is true because Damon and Reneer are married. So, stepbrother, step sister. who are betrothed to be married.

Who are betrothed to be married. So there are stepbrother, step-sister, affianced. Uh-huh. Okay. If we buy the fiction that Lainor is Jace's father, they would be cousins. Right. So that's what the realm is, in theory, understands their relationship. That they're cousins, step-siblings, and betrothed.

Okay? Uh-huh. They are not. Right. But they are second. second cousins because Reynice and Vassaris are cousins. Yeah.

So they're related down that line. And let us not forget that Damon is Reneira's uncle. So they're related down that line. How could we possibly? And then let us not forget as we go up the family tree. This is where we're going to stop all of it. But we talk a lot about Jiharis, the conciliator. and good queen, Alessane, lovely king and queen Targaryians.

We love them so much. They reigned for a long time, healthy reign, brother and sister. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, this is the Targaryen way. Targaryen exceptionalism. They're related in so many ways. And if we were to draw you a family tree, it would be quite jumbled and confusing. They don't call them Aegon and a sister wives for nothing, folks.

But, yeah, Jason, Jason Bela, it's a particularly complicated, a little sticky connection there. Speaking of sticky connections, gross. Let's go to the bells of a pleasure den with Aymand for some cuddles and some mommy time and some milk. And look, Joe, it is that mysterious dancing blonde from the trailer. We're like, who is this character? This was it. I mean, maybe we'll see her again.

Maybe. She's very blonde. Yeah. Yeah, sure is. So, of course, Amid would feel right at home here, you know, surrounded by orgy murals on the wall. Just like, you know. And his foil Damon, many of our early formative scenes with Damon were also in the mouth.

With Rhinera, with Masaria, possibly making the air for a day speech, etc. So this feels right to see Amon here. But we are not, we do not find him as we initially found Damon pumping away and then cloaked. We find him nude, curled in the fetal position in. Sylvie's. Madam Sylvie's arms. A sick round bed with like the drippy candles everywhere. This was good.

Almost sept-esque sort of configuration. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool vibes in this. Yeah. Not I want to have sex hair vibes. Certainly not. No. No. Not here. No. Not here. Just cut me time and milk time. Yeah. The, we chatted a lot and talk to thrones. Chris is, Chris felt very sure this was milk of the poppy and that Amid was

We both read this definitively as... Infantilizing. This is... The kids were mean to me. My mom doesn't like me or love me or support me or encourage me. I've got to always be the bold, strong, everyone's mighty dragon rider and fabled sword. And like, here I just want to curl up and drink some more milk.

Do we think this is where he was when blood and cheese popped in? I mean, she says you were with me, like, whether she's like, here's your alias or whether he actually was. It's open to interpretation. The way she said it sounded sort of like she was offering an alibi, but like, I'm not sure. Anyway. Yeah. The, do you think that Aman keeps the same number of baby bottles full of milk that

Homelander keeps in his private chambers? Or do you think that he just, like, if he wants the milk, he has to come here to get it? Got to travel for that whole experience. Because it's not just about the milk. It's about the whole. cradling him experience. One of our listeners, Kayla, compared naked Amon here in the arms of a motherly woman to the Pieta. Uh-huh.

Are you ready to accept Amon as your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? No? Okay. I might be. I like that. Yeah. So this is the woman. I mentioned this in Talk to Thrones.

This is the woman who took Amon's virginity. Yes. The scene is always on your mind because of not the virginity losing, but the recounting of the virginity losing because of Christen's hat. Yes. Your favorite moment in House of the Dragon Industry. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm always thinking about that hat in that moment.

Time to get it wet. That's why it's your favorite moment. Yeah. But yeah, so Amon's virginity at 13. A gift from Agon. A jeering, bullying brother. Yep. But this is who he has returned to, this woman, Sylvie.

Yeah. How you've grown. That was what she said when she saw him in season one. Yeah. Wild stuff. Fucked up. So here. What we hear from Amon in the sequence. We hear that he is honored. Honored that Damon barked him, that Damon sought to kill him. In truth, I am proud that he considers me such a foe and that he seeks to murder me in my bed. He's afraid of me. Do you think Amon's like, I read the analysis? It turns out I'm his foil. Did you know that my name is just his name with the D moved around to the end? This was wonderful stuff.

Almond Targary. Good old almond. But yeah, the private regret. I do regret. Yeah. That business is Luke. That business. Yeah. That business. When my dragon ate his dragon and him and they found only a wing and a cloak. I lost my temper that day. I am sorry for it. So obviously the stark contrast to Damon who cannot really accept any responsibility. It literally says I am not responsible aloud to Damon saying this here. though the private nature of it, while it gives us actually a new insight into like what vulnerability Amund possesses, it actually then amplifies that air that he is putting on. Oh, for sure. With everybody else. The posturing.

Yes. What Sylvie says here, when princes lose their temper, it's often others who suffer small folk like me in her very like best sort of school teacher voice that she gives to him. Again, Ryan Condal has said. they do any school teacher stuff? A hundred percent. It's more like private tutor and princeling. Oh, ma'am. Something that Ryan Condal said numerous times before this season was this idea of like the small folk and the impact of the war on the small folk. We'll talk about it. We talk about Hugh, which we're about to, comes up again with Masaria as a sort of like voice of the people role that she is adopting. Masaria is someone we often link to Varis for a number of reasons. And there's this great line from Varus to Ned in the original Game of Thrones book, right, where he says, The High Septan once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer.

If that's true, Lord Edard, tell me, why is it always the innocents who suffer most when you high lords play your game of Thrones? Wonderful stuff. So this is Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess and the various writers just sort of like having fun with one of the more famous lines from the original book. I love it. Small folk like me. Oh, Ferris. George. Jora on the show, you know, the common people, what's like one of his early lessons for Danny?

The common people play for, pray for rain health in a summer that never ends. They don't care. Yeah. What games the High Lord plays. And especially with the dance, with the dance. with the dance of dragons, you know, this is true of the war of five kings. Like any war that we have seen is going to impact the small folk in various ways. Oh, yeah.

But this idea of this war fought above by dragons, like high in the sky. Yeah. But like, how does the fire affect, like, what's going on down here below? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. It's obviously no accident. You know, we hear Amon to reflect on how he was.

how they used to tease him when he was a kid, but we moved from that Sylvie line about the small folk right into going home with Hugh. Hugh? Home with Hugh. We've talked about these next couple scenes, like, quite a bit already, actually, so we can kind of breeze through these.

But is there anything else you want to say about our time at home with Hard Hugh and his wife and her chicken soup and their ailing child? You know, the... She is speaking about not just like how hard it was to get the chicken, how expensive everything is, but the way that people are already hoarding, prepping. And Hugh is struck, struck by this selfishness, right?

Which other people, if they were in the position of exhibiting that, would frame as surely self-preservation while I will protect my family. I think it goes back to what you were asking me about in terms of like Agon as a quote-unquote good king or someone who cared about the small folk. It's like whatever luxury Agon had in episode one of thinking about the sheep. slash goat herders or the smithes or whatever. I don't think his brain and heart have room for that now that he's on the vengeful warpath. And so this line from the book, which I think we quoted last week, but we'll quote again, every morning King Egon had merchants whining at him. His grace had no answer for their complaints beyond another cup of strong wine.

So this idea of a monarch who gave Hugh like this sort of flash of promise. Yeah. Yeah. Which Hugh then shares with his wife here. Right. But is Agon going to be able to be that king? Right. Sure. Yeah. Now that he has even more of a war to focus on.

Right. And whether you were the recipient of a promise like that directly in the throne room or you were just a person going about your day, any sort of goodwill that the people in power have managed to engender, like it's a fickle thing. And so to meet Hugh's family and hear his wife share this account, of what she's observing through the city. We're in the second episode of the season,

and you can feel how quickly, not just the, like, we're thinking of what's the impact on the small folk, how will their lives change, how will they suffer? We're about to see what happens to the rat catchers, but also how quickly then that resentment can build among them. Well, you're not, okay, you're sitting on the Iron Throne, but like, what are you doing for me?

What have you done for me lately? Right now. Yeah. soup looked good despite the limited ingredients. I thought looked great. Look delicious, looked hearty. Cats doing our best. Looked soothing.

Speaking of soup. Let's go to Driftmark because Alan and Adam, we heard Alan when we met him in episode one mention his brother. Here he is, Adam of Hall. And they have a very, very sweet and charming reunion. They have not seen each other for months. They're delighted to be back with each other and they're talking about goats to. Alan wants to know if Adam has a pot going. wants to know if there are carrots in it.

Let's say more importantly than stew is this line. Mallor's like nothing's more important than soup. Nothing. Nothing. Where he says, but brother, he owes you. He owes us. Right. Because Adam's like, are you going to join to Sea Snake's crew?

I prefer not to. Right. Alan, truth be told. I would rather he didn't, meaning extend an offer. But Adam's like glory, riches, fortune awaits, adventure awaits. So we see they have a different disposition and a different inclination toward. Makes me think of the acolyte, May and OSHA. But yeah, 100%. Does it make sense that Adam is making a stew, goat stew?

Should he be making boulebeys since he is seeing collecting crabs? Yeah. A nice fishy stew. I just like to see, like, when you scoop out that crab, just gives Austin, and mostly Chris, a reason to think back to the crab feeder. Oh, you're always thinking about the crab feeder. You know, our guy. Seasoke.

Yeah, so this is a later scene, but when Adam is collecting the crabs. Ever since Lainor left, we've had this question about Seas Smoke. Because to remind people who don't spend too much of their lives pouring over these books, when a dragon rider bonds to a dragon, that's it. That's a life bond. And it does not break until the rider or the dragon dies. And so, like, for example, with Vagar, Amid was able to claim Vagar because Vagar's previous writer, Laina, had died. Yep.

So, Lainor, her brother, is bonded to Seasmoke. Uh-huh. In the books, Lainor dies. Seasmoke, free agent. In the show, Lainor alive, what happens with Seasmoke? We don't know. potentially I don't know

Will we ever see Linaw again? I have no idea I guess probably not But are they going to change This dragon rider lore Or Does Lainor die off screen? We don't know

We genuinely don't know We don't know But it is nice to see C-Smoke here And be reminded That C-Smoke is on Drift-Mark As Damon told us At the end of season one Seasmoke resides on Drift-Mark

Here C-Smoke is out Taking the Air stretching those wings. I'm going to come back to the dragon meth a little later on. Great. Radius and Corley is in bed. Oh, bad! We talked about this a bunch as well.

Great scene. What more do we want to add to this scene? You know, I think seeing them back in a moment of just like love and post-quital bliss and like talking. See, so many of the moments across season one where they were talking like strategy, talking tactics, talking about other people. It was tension. It was just the rift. was widening because Corliss was obsessed with Legacy, and Renice saw that they were marching toward the destination of their family.

Right. And then when Corlis comes back from taking his wound, the blood fever, he's like, I'm done with that. And she's like, actually, they need us. I sworn toward the queen. They need us. And so they're in a place right now, it feels like finally of equal footing, where they are like aligned in not only like their candor with each other.

and able to speak freely about what they're observing in other people and what they're thinking of themselves. Like even like hearing, well, he is king consort, but he is not king. Neither am I, but I managed. Just felt like a really distinct posture from courtless compared to like how he conducted himself in season one. So that was...

He's coming off like a real wife guy. Yeah. And like, because Bernice mentions, right, she's talking about Damon and how he's behaving and she says, like, I felt the crown pass over me. She knows what it's like. A mention of something like. something like that in season one would have incited and sparked and fueled Corliss's ambition.

Right. But that's not present here, which just feels like you feel the evolution in their relationship in a way that I really loved. And then, of course, they also allude to their subdom. Their sex life, yeah. Great stuff. Neither can he allow her to command him of Damon. Pity. I have on occasion found that to be quite enjoyable.

We go down to the hottest thing in this episode. Wonderful stuff. Mm-hmm. The library. The library. This is, this was incredible. I mean, the expansion of the Dragonstone set is unbelievable. The library was just absolutely exquisite.

Yeah, if you watch The House of Dragons built, Jim Clay, who's the, you know, architect of all of this, did a huge expansion on Kings Landing, but also a huge expansion on Dragonstone. And so similar to the King's Landing set where they can, like, walk from room to room. It's not like, you know, usually on a set, this room's over here, that room's over there, blah, blah, and they make it look like they're walking in between the room. This is like a living, a living breathing set where you can walk down the hallways between the rooms. It's just absolutely incredible. The scale of it. Yeah. Oh, and the details.

It was so cool to see Reneira actually open a tomb. We get to see the aforementioned Aragon and his sister wives. We see Aragon and Vesani and Reneas, excuse me, on the first page. And then Reneera turns the page and we see just Vesnia on Vigar holding Dark Sister. We associate Dark Sister with Damon. Yeah. Weigar with Amund, of course, so that's fun. But also it's not just the, like, looking at this and thinking of this, this, this, this, this, this great historical figure of consequence and how we have these now associations with these two characters in the present story.

But, you know, we think back to something like the, the moment in the season one premiere where Reniero wanted to name. Well, yeah. Alesson Renera wanting to name the kid Vecena. And Vesera is saying, this family already has its Vesnia. Like what Vesnia represents to Reneira has always been a cool thing to track. And then there's that other tide of Vesaris, just like studying. That's what I was going to say. It's not just Vesars.

It's also Damon because we saw Damon do this a lot in Pento's. So like this idea of Reneira trying to, because when we saw Reneer and Alicent reading, just like girls, just like chums, just like Pals would do in the season one premiere, it was Allison who was reading and Rennira who was like listening and half paying attention and really much would rather be on Dragonbacks. You know, like not... Never just a back cake. Exactly.

Never. And so, like, the idea that she's trying to be a bit more like her father or trying to be a bit more like Damon. And, like, that... In stark contrast to Agon, who is actively destroying the model and... If we don't mind our histories, they will do the same to us. Like, Reneer is heeding the warning there. Right.

But that's just like... That's just her... into that aspect. And again, I think she was content to leave a lot of that to Damon of the dragon lore and all of that sort of stuff. And with him gone, she's like, okay, I guess I better brush up. And it's interesting to think of which, because Viseras and Damon were both students of history, but in different ways. Sure. And so, like, which of those, maybe is she going to be more inclined toward, or will she be able to do both? Will she study the aspect of history that Viseras was so obsessed with? Will she study the might, the power? Like, dreams didn't make us

Kings, Dragons did obsession that Damon focused on because that, I mean, we've literally heard it from Damon. That was actually a source of division between Vassaris and Damon, that they didn't think of their own history of Targaryen might the same way. So for Reneer to be able to maybe wrap her arms around all of it. That's more interpretive than it is like they both read a lot. And it's just sort of they interpreted things different. Yeah, they took, they put weight in different aspects of their own history. But maybe Reneira doesn't make that choice. Maybe she puts weight in all of it, you know? I think that Allison callback is an interesting one, too, because the thing that always strikes me about that scene other than just the charm and, you know, the friendship

lost is that, like, Allison thinks Reneer can't be bothered to pay attention, but then Reneer is able to recite every single detail of that. Like, she, it's just actually, she doesn't have to work as hard at it as Allison did. And so to see her still devote the time and interest, she knows it's go time. The page opposite, the illumination is his detailing stuff happened in Dorn. Bad stuff happened to dragons and Dorn is what is true there. Also, we got an email from a listener who is also a medievalist and I'm just like, medievalist. Wonderful stuff. Keep the emails coming. Wonderful stuff. But Courtney, spelled in like a fun Georgia or Martin kind of way or a Kardashian kind of way if you prefer, said of the book,

of the illuminated sort of book that we get here, the art and manuscript style appeared to be based on the German medieval manuscript, the Kodek Manessa, commissioned in the late 13th. slash early 14th century by the Manessa family in Switzerland. In German, and this is where I'm going to try to speak some German hold on to your hats and glasses, very briefly. In German, they referred to it as the Grosse Heidelberger-Liederrandschrift. So, or the Codex, Vanessa, if you prefer. But I just thought that was really cool.

And Courtney enclosed some photos that made it like pretty clear that this is like a direct sort of lift of a very famous manuscript that is in Heidelberg. So if you would like to go to Heidelberg, visit this codex to see the inspo that they drew. But, like, also, they were talking about in that library set. Yeah. Where we see scrolls galore, books, all blah, that, like, every single scroll, little Raven scroll, little everything was, like, handmade. And, like, it just looks incredible.

Astonishing. Absolutely incredible. Just breathe so much life into the world. I forgot to re. I meant to relook. but do you remember, I feel like those diamond sort of with all the scrolls in them shape, was the structure in the Winterfell Library? Was that not a similar shelving structure?

I'll have to rewatch. But I think that that was a similar sort of. Do you remember in the final season they're like, guess what Winterfell has a library, a place we have not spent much time thus far? It was interesting to hear in the House of the Dragons built that they, because so much of it was like, instead of bound books, they were scrolls. So they had to figure out a structure to just, like, house them and maintain their integrity. That was interesting.

It's not just scrolls. Masaria's here, too. Sir Stephan brings her in. And they have a fascinating chat where it is clear to us and Masaria like that Renira does not remember who Massaria is, which is like actually genuinely on the how much time has passed front, like a useful way to remind us that this was decades ago. that they stood on that bridge in Dragonstone. Exactly the same age. Yes. As to Sir Kristen Cole.

Yes, indeed. I know that part's funny with the Egon auto age divide. It's like Kristen and Egan are not peers. They're not the same age. They may both be peacocks, but they're not same age. But I mean, it speaks to sort of like both Kristen and Damon in that arrested development phase. Absolutely. What did you make of this Masaria?

I love this. I love this. Again, we are hardcore cook. voting her varis, right? Yes. Coming to the West, learning to listen, all of that sort of stuff. The way in which the moment where Masaria says, he does do that, doesn't he, about Damon. Flaying.

Oh, yeah. Just so good. This is a moment of recognition between these two women. A real, like, you feel completely alone in the world, but actually somebody understands. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. And on the I get it front, the way that Masaria speaks of.

of how the men of the realm will never accept her. Yeah. I thank him for it. For too long I made it my aim to be of consequence, but now I see that was the wish of a child. Damon, Otto Hightower, it makes no difference. They will never accept me. I might as well have remained a whore.

This question of will the realm ever accept me has been the question for Reneer. Since the moment she was named heir, certainly since Egon was born. And so to hear an idea like this from Masaria, It's another scene later in the episode where she'll decide to let her go. Right. You have to feel like that coupled with Damon.

Yeah, I know him too. He does do that, doesn't he? That's what reached her. Did you, were you reminded of DeNaris in the Break the Wheel speech when she says, like, Damon Otto Hightower makes no difference, right? I was like, Lannister, Targary, Barathe, and Stark, Dirol. They're all just focused on a wheel. This one's on top and that one's on top.

And on it spins crushing those on the ground. Another, like, small folk, you know, reference moment. Yeah. Of course, we talked about this on Talk to Thrones, but of course, when Masariah says, I see that that was the wish of a child. And Reneer just said, when I was a child, I took this as a challenge to Damon. I'm older now. I have challenges enough. Challenges enough.

Right? I have enough things on my list. I don't need to add you to it. So it's like Masaria and Reneira grew up, even if Masaria looks exactly the same. And Damon just never has. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Speaking of people who have not grown up,

Egon is here to squander the world of the people. Can I really quickly talk about Masari as far, though? I just want to mention, you know, Reneer is like, how did you get that scar, right? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I doesn't answer. But if you go back and track it in season one,

when we see her for most of the series, she's wearing these, like, cloaks and chokers and things that connect across her throat to disguise the scar. And then when she is, like, owns her own, like, pleasure her house at the end of, you know, and she is a political operator, she starts to, like, reveal the scar or something. She no longer has to hide anymore. It's a mark of what I have endured to get here, not like in the earliest moments when we meet her. It's all about her making herself soft and attractive to whatever man can offer her some modicum of power. And I thought that was an interesting evolution.

Will we ever find out how she got her scar? I would rather not, actually. I think it's an interesting, just like... Little mystery. Sort of similar to Varus. It's just sort of like... Yeah. Something really bad happened before I got here, actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Rat catchers. Yeah. We travel into this scene next to a character named Ulf. Welcome to the show. Tom Bennett. Just like stealing a little tuber from the backpack.

Oh, Guy passes. Wonderful stuff. And then he wanders upon the scene of just absolute horror families looking up. upon their loved ones hanged in front of the keep wailing. And he's like, what happened here? Okay. What happened here? And then we see cheese. But that's not what he says. You're going to do the accents? A really brief accent corner to say this. Because Tom Bennett, who I love, is playing Ulf, and he says, what they do. That's what he says. He goes, what they do, right? And I was like, wow, I was like, is this the first time we've heard a cockney in Westrose? It's not usually an accent that they use.

And so that I was going back through him watching clips and I was like, I was like, probably hot pie. Hot pie cockney accent. Yes. Winter hell? Are you sure? Davos. Sir Davos. Liam Cunningham is an Irish actor. He's doing like this Jordy accent. And then Joe Dempsey is Gendry is doing this like South English. So like, yummy, never been with a woman. Flea bottom, melting pot. Just because Gendry and Davos grew up in the same. area and like bond over it. They have wildly different accents.

But I've been like waiting for like a hard core cockney and that is what they do brought to the table for me and I loved it. Exciting to hear to think about the moment when we'll get to hear Ulf talk about his bowl of brown experience as as Gendrian and Davos once did, you know? Can't wait. We see cheese hanging. There are two things of note here other than the large thing, which is that Egon killed all of these innocent people as audits.

I was about to point out. She is not innocent. And the dog, the wonderful beloved dog and icon instantly to all who watched the show, who was cruelly and despicably kicked in episode one is here. And he is looking up at Cheez's body and he's like, let's out a little whimper. I can't tell you how badly I wanted Cheez's body to fall in that moment with this dog could take a shit on his face. Like, that's all I wanted.

It's all I wanted. Folks, I just need to know that in our notes it said, piss in his dead mouth. So we've escalated from pissing his dead mouth to shit on his face. Why not book? Here's the other thing I wanted to share. This is an interesting book update because in the book we don't actually know what happened to cheese. What happened? Yeah.

From Fire and Blood after 13 days of torment. 13 days is a lot. I was thinking of that when Chris was like, Egg on Goddaman, one blow. After 13 days of torment. Blood was at last allowed to die. Queen Allison, of course, unreliable narrators. Queen Allison had commanded Laris Clubfoot to learn his true name so that she might bathe in the blood of his wife and children. But our sources do not say, if this occurred.

Sir Luther Largent and his gold cloaks searched the street of silk from top to bottom and turned out and stripped every harlot in King's landing, but no trace of cheese or the white worm was ever found in his grief and fury. King Egon the second. Notice it doesn't say his grief, fury, and wisdom. In his grief and fury, King Egon the second commanded that all the city's rack catchers be taken out and hanged. And this was done. And then, partly— Important parenthetical.

Sir Otto Hightower brought 100 cats into the Red Keep to take their place. Will this happen next episode? Will we just have basically like a surpounce in every scene? Oh my God. It's like the end of the marvels essentially. Flurkins. Everywhere. I would love that.

We are, of course, reminded of Aria chasing the cats in season one of Thrones. Serio says. But yeah, I mean, why pay rat catchers when you can just have cats? Sounds great to me. Let's hear what Otto Hightower has to say about this show. It is time for Egon to go,

I would name you, Hand of the King. Again. Otto finds Chris. Kristen and Agon looking at the window, had to wonder, it's a different window, but was Agon just like, man, longing for the simpler times when I could just perch on my window and jack off on the city below, you know? Simpler times, happier times. The only thing I had to worry about them was mom walking in. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry.

He's still taking it out on the people below. Now he's just hanging hundreds of innocent people. It's fine. Joanna Otto is enraged. Not having a great day. I mean, he is. Displeased. Yeah.

Displeased. He's like, did you not hear anything I said at the small council when I, like, probably stepped in it a little bit and told you everyone already thinks that you're weak and they see omens everywhere. But I had a great plan. It worked. Why did you hang all of these innocent people? Calls him a fool. And then Agon responds by saying, one guilty one. Got one guilty one.

And there's like a little bit of humor in the exchange. But it's a disturbing moment where you feel in real time, like, okay, those little glimmers of possibility that we discussed that you saw in episode one, like, could Egon maybe try to be a king who communes with a small folk? It's done. You can feel this sinister, vengeful force bubbling to the four. Well, it doesn't matter that I killed all the innocent people. I got the one guilty one. It's also just like it's impetuous and it's just childish. Would you also, in addition to impetuous, call it thoughtless, feckless self-indulgent?

Not an ounce of feck here. Oh, Otto. Great stuff from Otto in this scene. And it's not just that he's listing all of the ways that Egon has failed and aired. Has been impetuous. It's been thoughtless. He says, after all, I've done for you. And this is fascinating from Otto's perspective because we talked last week about that caprice of youth.

And that was about Amin. But, like, you take the caprice of youth aim and hand wave, and then you take the auto-alcant conversation to end episode one or near the end of episode one, like, we'll just wait it out. He'll get bored of it, and then we'll be able to control him again. And, like, this ties to what we were talking about earlier. Otto is having to confront in real time. Very different context. But it did, like, remind me a little bit of the moment where Renera disobeys orders flies to Dragonstone in season one, episode two. And that moment where Otto clocks her, right?

He's like, you're never going to be the person who. who listens to me. But also just the way in which Otto is just out of his depth in terms of the game that we're playing here. Completely. Just he's playing a game of scrolls and ravens and that's not the game anymore. Let's hear a discussion about exactly that. At least I did something.

I have not answered injury to the crown with what? Whaling? Currying favor with the fishwives. I will not be thought weak. Even now, news of Roneira's monstrous crime spreads through the realm. the great houses falter, they cannot but come to our side. I wish to spill blood, not ink. We must act.

Sir Kristen Cole has acted. And what has Sir Christian Cole done? You sent Sir Eric to slay Reneera? Alone. He's pretending to be his own twin. Brilliant. God's help us all. Remarkable.

I think he's pretending to be his own twin. Brilliant. Brilliant. Wonderful. I will not be the first to say it, but it was in my notes the minute I saw this scene, which is the classic iconic onion line, heartbreaking colon, the worst person you know just made a great point. And what has the Kristen Cole done?

I emailed Steve this morning and copied you on it. I was like, please add this to the soundboard. It's like, you're a joke if you think I haven't already put it on the soundboard. Thank you so much. It's there and it will remain there. all of time. This is wonderful. Otto calls it a prank.

He calls it ill-considered and trifling. A little comedy bit with twins. A little switcheroo. The old parent crap. Let's do it. Oh, man. And he can't get over. You know, and we've heard this from Otto

dating back through the whole show, like the Lena marriage proposal. Well, you've got to consult your counsel on this. Like, this is always his thing, right? He didn't give Egan the Tom and Tywin

wisdom. Wisdom. a good king now for Taiwan, that was so self-serving because that meant you talk to me and I'll tell you what is right. But Otto has never, he's doing things in this episode, we're praising him, he's seeing the board clearly, he has never understood how to try to bring other people into his web the way that Taiwan has. Nobody in House of the Dragon is ever going to say seven kingdoms United in fear of Otto High Tower. 100%.

Never. Totally. You're thinking of Taiwan, you have to think of a lot of the various hands, right? Like, what was Tyrion good at? Yep. What was Ned good at? Not a lot as a hand. You know, what was John Aaron good at?

The Madness of Mercy. Like, Tywin, we're not for his terrible mismanishment of his own son. Well. You know. And that's the other interesting comp here. It's like thinking of a moment where Searcy goes to Taiwan and says, like, All you do all the time is talk about legacy. But did you ever bother to look at your own family?

That's an interesting Taiwan and auto comp to me. Yeah. Thinking all the time about the rise of House Hightower, about installing Egon on the throne, were you prepared for what that was going to look like? Now, it's not an auto to anticipate blood and cheese, but he propped up this ruler who he doesn't know how to maneuver and operate. He thought how to mold him.

Like, he could have spent Agon's youth, not just scheming to put him on the throne, but training him, if not to be a good ruler, then, like, a pliable puppet. That was what made that- He just completely neglect him. Totally. That was what made that line last week so odd to, I think, both of us, that, like, you're the great example to all of my kids' line from Allison. It's like, is he?

Wow. Oh, man. This is where, like, we get a lot of the age stuff, right? Because Otto will later talk about the peacocking to Allison, but... Yeah. He says, Chris is more worth than 100 old men. Yep. And I love the phrasing of that, though, because then we have to go back to the small council scene earlier

when Otto says, Jiharis will do more than a thousand nights in battle. And then all the way back, of course, to the boy was right, is worth a thousand. thousand times, the price he paid. I was forever doing math when it comes to what's the tradeoff, what is worth what, and he found himself trapped in his own word problem. He's now part of someone else's equation. Yeah. He never did the math that Rainis did at the heir's tourney, though, right? That it's been 70 years since King May Gorsen. These knights are as green as summer grass. None have known real war. Their lord sent them to the tourney fields with fists full of steel and balls full of seed and we expect them to act with honor and grace. It's a marvel that,

that war didn't break out at first blood. Like, Renice clocking that as a tone-setting moment in the series, it's, I think when we rewatch this show for the rest of our lives, like that would be one of the things that just feels like this is like a thesis here. And you can feel this. I mean, Kristen has actually known real battle, but you feel it with egg on here. You feel it with all of these characters who are like,

these old guys, get them out of here. No. Time for the young bloodthirsty to come in. Viseris' dignity. Yeah. Otto mourning Vassaris's dignity. Well, that's the thing about Otto is he's just like any way the wind blows. What narrative is most convenient, what narrative is most convenient to him in any given moment?

Is the narrative that Aegon has all of the trappings of legitimacy? Or is the narrative that Hacy Coronation, Dragon Brist, Forth? Is Viseras an idiot, weak king? Totally. Or is Viseris an honorable king who was dignified and has a legacy to, reserve. Otto has no solid opinion about anything other than his own ambition. I think you're completely right, because, like, you would, the most charitable read, like the generous read that you'd want to bring to this if you were Team Green is, oh, maybe Otto is doing what we're saying,

like, Damon's not capable of or Kristen's not capable, like a moment of reflection, right? No. And the first firing when Viseras in episode four kicks him out, and he says, think yourself a cunning man? Your designs are obvious. Again, that's the real distinction between Otto and Taiwan to me is like Taiwan's designs weren't always obvious, at least not the way that he sought to execute against them. But Otto's, anyone can clock what he's trying to do with enough exposure to him. And even like...

He also just doesn't know how to make moves from behind someone else. Like behind Alisett for certain. But like, thinking about Taiwan orchestrating the Red Wedding and having... his hands very clean of that whole thing. Yeah. Right. And thinking of Laris and the various strings that he plays. Like in this scene, and we talked about this before, but in this scene to hear Egan

say, you were my father's hand, not mine, which is exactly what Laris says to him last week. He planted the seed and it instantly flowered. But it's not that Agan says, you know, Laris said to me this. Laris is invisible in this manipulation. and that is not something that Otto is ever capable of. So Chris asked us that on, right, Otto wants everyone to see how Hardy's working. Like, Chris asked us that on Talk to Thrones. Like, wouldn't, would Laris have been a better choice?

And there's, like, the obvious, like, because of the, you know, my hand will be a steel fist. That's not the type of power egg on wants here. But also, like, you made the really important point on Sunday. That's not what Laris would choose. There's just too much attention. Like, this is what influence looks like. Once you pin. Popeteering.

That hand of the king pin on you. there is like there's a target on your back. For sure. Okay. Speaking of just really quickly, the dispensibility of hands of the king. I just want to mention that Chris also asked us on Sunday if a Lord Commander or if a Kingsguard had been promoted to Hand of the King. And we were like, yes, but we didn't get into it. Right.

So just to say that an example, and we talked about this in season one, but Sariam Red Wine. Died off screen between episodes. Tough one. Tough one. for that Lord Commander. But he was Lord Commander and Hand of the King for a time. How'd he do?

How was he at the job, Joe? Listen. But what I think is interesting is like what you pointed out on Sunday is this idea that like there have been many men of many different temperaments. And what I kind of think is fascinating about King Jiharis,

who ruled for a long time. With his sister, who was also his wife, is that he chewed through seven hands. and that include a lord commander, a sceptin, septon, Barth. Oh, yeah. His heir, which is either a great idea or a bad idea. I don't know, depending on the air, probably.

But, like, Gerrhus is trying out all different kinds of things. And then, like, ends with Otto. Yeah. I don't know. The heir, Viseris and Damon's father, of course. That has to have a huge bearing on why Damon was like, why didn't you ever ask me to be your hand? Right. But Damon would be the worst hand.

Oh, yeah. Who do you think, who would you pick to be, Hand of the King? If I were egg on? Yeah, let's say if you were agon. You know who I think was the best? Lionel's strong. Oh, Lionel was a great hand. I mean, Lionel actually gave, I always loved the moment in season one where if his

he's like, and who will you suggest your own son to break bones? He's like, no, I think you should, I think it should be Lanor. Yeah. Like, he was the only one who brought unbiased impartial counsel. He's genuinely talking strategy and seemed like a pretty, good dude. Yeah. Like, Lionel would never have had a moment.

I mean, he tried to quit, right? He tried to quit and Vissaris wouldn't let him. He would never have a moment, like the one Vassaris and Otto had, where Vassaris has, I only now realize how well calculated it was of something Otto had done. It just would never have been in that position. He is in the position here of laughing in Agon's face, though, when Aigon says, he made me king of his father. Is that what you think?

So this is Agan's great fear, Joe. Is that what you think? That he wasn't the one his father chose or wanted, that he wasn't good enough. And that's true and Otto is admitting it. So all of that weakness talk. I genuinely think when Agon is crying later. It's about this. It's about all of it.

But that this is in the goat stew. Right. It's part of what he's mourning. It's not just to Harris. It's the loss of this little like ember possibility that maybe he was good enough for his own family. Yeah. That maybe his father ever thought of him that way. Okay.

So who's he given the handpin to? It's Kristen. Chris. Did you enjoy Kristen's little whimper? Like the little whimper? he admitted, he was like, oh, your grace, a murder. In this hour you have proven yourself of more worth than a hundred old men. My new hand will be a steel fist.

And that fire and blood, we are done writing letters line that we like to talk about. So I'm sure everything will be fine here. Well, he comes up with a brilliant idea right off the bat. I mean, he already does it before he got his promotion. This was, he came up with carpal bowl. Before. Pre-promotion. The promotion. So what will you think of next?

Certainly not a laughable prank. Man. A brilliant idea. You acceded to this. This prank. Here comes Ariq. Let's do it. It's a Dragonstone.

Reneera has freed Masaria, who very helpful timing here. Spots Aric. I just love how dirty and tired she looks on her way to the boat. She's just like, I'm done. I'm over it. I need a shower. I'm going to Sos. Fuck you guys. Not too dirty or tired to just pause and take a beat and reflect rather than shouting, hey, wait, when last we met, there were two of you. She's deciding if it's worth it for her

to stick her neck out for Reneira. Absolutely. And I completely understand. Damon just threw her in the cell. She just got out of there. I think what's interesting is that she actually very clearly doesn't take long to think of it, to make her decision. Because if she had taken long, Eric with an E wouldn't have made it. into Reneer's chambers in time to stop A. Like, Missouriam makes her decision pretty quickly here. I mean, yes, somewhat quickly. We're not sure how long Eric was, like, fumbling around in the hallway.

Like, doing their rounds. Doing their evening rounds? Yeah, but certainly she didn't, like, get on the boat and decide, like, Liz. She sees them, she stops. She reflects, and she's like, okay, I'm going to go prevent what is clearly a nefarious prank unfolding. The enemy is about, good so. We've talked about many people with many jobs.

There's Smiths, there's rat catchers, blah, blah. I just want to shout out Alinda, who is just trying to unbrain Reneer's hair. That's all she's trying to do. The way she keeps just moving forward. Reneer is just like, I have thoughts and feelings and a mood. And I'm just like, let Alinda do her job, please. Great stuff. So here it is.

Cargobull ball. Just as blood and cheese were able to enter the Royal Chambers at the Red Keep. Eric with an A, Aric with an A, is able to impersonate Eric with an E and make his way into Rineara's bed chambers. here. Believe me, I had no choice. That's what he says, as he is about to make his move and that his brother comes in. And they fight. And he goes, brother. As every sibling has ever said when they see their brother. Brother! Brother fighting brother. One soul in two bodies, as Eric with an A said earlier, and they're cutting each other down here because of this doomed, cursed war. We were born together. You parted us. But I still love you, brother. So there's this

Can I just say, you and I disagree about how hard or easy it was track which was which. I will say that's the line you parted us, that I was like, that's Ari with an A. That's not an Eric with an E sentiment. That's an ARC with an A sentiment. Yeah, right? Because Eric with an E is like, I understand why my brother did what he had to do. An arc with an A is like, you left. You left us. Yeah. Yeah. Has this scene grown on you at all in the couple days since watching or no? I like that, as I mentioned on Sunday, I liked that Reneer was there. I think the fighting is good. I just remain not emotionally invested in these guys.

Yeah. And I'm sorry. Yeah. I, you know, I said on Talk to Thrones that I was, like, shocked that this worked for me. I should, I should say, like, I've always really loved the, this stretch of fire and blood, the different accounts of what happened between Eric and Aric. And not just because we get the like, identical in all respects, not even their fellows of the Kingsguard could tell the two apart set up so that we understand how we could be in this position and like Laurent in the show matching it with the witch, witch, witch is there. But because of the differing accounts, the unreliable narrator stuff that we like to talk about, there's the, for obvious reasons, singers and storytellers have shown a market preference for the tale as told by Munkin. Measters and other scholars must make their own determination as to which version is more likely.

All that Septu Eustace says upon the matter is that the cargled twins slew each other and there we must leave it. because, like, this takes on the place of legend in the history of the kingdoms. They're just, like, tragic quality to it, but this romantic quality to a brother against brother. There's, of course, the symbolic application to the dance to brother-fighting brother, a family tearing itself apart. And so I've always loved that part of the book. I just think, to your point, like, because of how the Cargles were used in season one, episode nine in particular, I just, like, wasn't really prepared to care about how this went down in the show. But I really liked it. I liked playing with that, like, okay, it was kind of like annoying to you guys when you

watch this in the penultimate episode of season one. Who's whom? Like, well, what do we know about these people? And then that becomes the tension in this sequence and who's going to survive and are you sure? And, like, yeah, we're prepping for pause. We're watching closely. I think, like, we are able to say, Eric wins. You can track the movements, but also just the fact that he says,

Your Grace, which Arach with an A would not say. Right. Forgive me before he impales himself. The fact that many people watching this are just going to be like, who's going to win and is Reneer are going to be okay, felt dramatically compelling to me. And then I think it's mostly just what it represents about the nature of this conflict. I liked hearing Condal, this was in an interview with THR, talk about the Sansa connection here. Sansa romanticizing this.

Yes. I thought was fascinating. In that same interview, he talked about the Civil War comp that Chris Ryan brought up this sort of brother-versus brother idea. But then he was also like Arthurian legend. And I was like, excuse me, sir, what Arthurian legend? And it took me a while because this is not a common Arthurian legend. But it's certainly what George was inspired by because the brothers in Arthurian legend are bailin and balin. Like, that's classic Eric and Arc shit right there, right?

Yeah, tremendous. But Bailin and Bollen, who are cursed multiple times over and through a torturous amount of circumstances to find themselves facing down each other on a bridge, one of them in, like, enchanted armor that they can't take off. The other in a shield that doesn't belong to him, so they don't know that each one is each other, and then they kill each other on the bridge there. So, like, that is almost certainly what George R. Martin is talking about. But yeah, this idea, I mean, sounds a sweet little bird that she is. Little deaf. Darling Little Love and Sparrow that she is, loves to romanticize things. But beyond Sansa, I think the really fun romanticization here is Bran and this idea that Eric and our Cargill are the first characters from the Dance of the Dragons that Georgia Armarin ever wrote about.

And he wrote it in the original Game of Thrones book, which was written over 30 years ago. Wild to think about it a long ago. On the book, quote, brand new all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Love. Sirwin of the mirror shield. Sir Ryan Redwine, who died off screen. Famously a great hand.

Prince Eamon, the Dragon Knight, the twins, Sir Eric and Sir Arick, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. Chills. The cargoes are with stories. started this whole thing for George. It's wild. So that was satisfying. On a storytelling level, it's interesting. On an emotional level, I don't care about the cargo. Well, guess what? Now they're gone. I care about Renera. And I care about Emma's performance as Renera. Yes. Like, processing this. It's really good.

None of these characters are ever going to feel safe again. Right. We're breaking into bedchambers. Speaking of bedchambers, we go to our closing stretch of the episode. Allison, the father of the son, and the unholy dick. That's what I'm calling this. Great. The debrief, Otto and Allison, chatting about his latest ouster. Last time it was more of a heated argument in the rain. This is more tears here.

More tears here for sure. I loved Allison's face as Otto is just shitting all over Kristen. Right? He's young and unschooled. And, Enegan, he's young and unschooled. His faith is in steel and bone. And she's like, when you say bone. He's intemperate.

He's loyal. Joanna. Yeah. An amazing thing happens here. Otto's like, I'm going to go back to Old Town. The High Tower is still off strength and you have a son there who will take more kindly to instruction. Darren may yet help us in weeks to come. At long last, Darren Viseras and Allison's fourth child and third son has been mentioned on the television program, House of the Dragon.

I am elated. And he has a dragon. I am, by the way, I know that when the showrunner says things, it's a real thing. And I can't actually just dismiss it and ignore it. We're having a tough time with this one. Ryan Connell gave an interview to variety. Yeah. He said Darren has not been cast yet, so don't expect Darren this season.

But also, he's going to be in the show. But he's going to be in the show. Yes. But also, he's not a dragon writer yet. We know he's not a dragon rider, but he's had a dragon born to him. So this would seem to indicate that they're aging there and down, which wouldn't be the first. Jaff is younger here. I got in Vassariseria younger.

Reading Fire and Blood. I was reminded this week that I was reminded that Bayla, there's a line that's like, Moon Dancer could not take Bayla's weight yet, right? This is what I was going to bring up that they can change the timing of this stuff. Yeah, Bail is not a dragon writer. I don't know. I think this is just him being like yada yada. not ready to deal with Darren yet. I say absolutely no reason that come season three when Darren is presumably cast in the show,

they can't be like, but now he's a dragon writer. The last two months he figured it out. Darren Tessarian. Shout out. I'm thrilled. Shout out our listener, Lisa, who in her rewatch, and I'm sure I'm confident we talked about this at the time. We did.

Oh yeah, of course we did. But in season one episode 10, Damon's doing dragon math. That scene we love to talk about. And he says, Dragonstone has 13 dragons to their four. In real time, like, took that as a promise. Yeah. We were like, Darren's coming, right? So the Greens have three adult dragons.

Right. Plus, Tesarian, Darren's dragon, off screen, not an adult yet. But Damon's counting him. I mean, the Darren mentioned was just absolutely thrilling. Were you equally excited by the High Garden mention here? Yes. Because it made me think. It's great stuff.

Of Alan Beesbury. Bees. Our beloved bees. Dear me. Al Miesbury, Lime and Beesbury's heir, who, you know, is like, excuse me, where is my grandsire? Let him out of the dungeons. Is he in the dungeons? Where is he? Sweet Bees.

Ah, man. Great stuff. Otto's just like, I want to go home. My house, the high towers, Darren, and Allison's like, I have another job for you. Yeah. I actually loved her doing to him what he would do to her all the time. Actually, we need you at the High Gardens. Duty.

Duty. Duty. He does not wish to hear of it. Her sense that she's ready to confess. This is incredible. This is the Kendall Roy moment for Allison, right? Oh, man. I really wish that I would have been like, you know, I'm so tired.

And let's talk about it in the morning. And then she wakes up and there's just a note. Do you want an egg? Do you want an egg? Do you want an egg or something? That's a good impression. Oh, I've been doing a Harriet Wall. alter impressions and sense and sensibility.

Really, really, really good. Oh, man, Otto. Couldn't wait. Couldn't wait. I mean, I guess, you know, he did have to kind of like gird for it, but couldn't wait to tell Vassaris about his daughter coupling in the bells of a pleasure done, but won't let his own daughter. I do not wish to hear it.

Do not wish to hear it. Wild stuff. Okay, well, Allison is then off to another room. This is where she finds egg on weeping. Very sad. And this is, to go back, I don't need to dwell on it, but our listeners, Cecilia, we actually got a few emails. It's interesting.

Thank you. I guess there's some sort of, there's a discourse that I've been missing somewhere in the dark corners of the internet of people really hammering Allison for being a bad mother. And maybe hammering her harder for that than they are. Agon for not being able to tell the difference between his twins or Damon for skipping Luke's funeral and ignoring bail in the hallway and stuff like that. Like maybe that Allison is giving more shit for being a bad parent than all the dudes who have been bad parents on their shows are.

Or this idea of like slut shaming Allison for having sex and neglecting her children or something like that. I see these as wildly different things. Well, like the volume of emails on this subject are so high that I'm like, this is clearly a conversation that's happening somewhere. It's not a conversation you and I have ever had. We do not associate these things at all. We are pro-Alison having sex just maybe not with Kristen Cole. And her being a distant, emotionally constipated, like parental figure is something as understandable, given all that she was brought up in. It's still not a great thing to leave your child sobbing, especially if you've propped him up wholly unprepared to be king of the realm.

you know, now is the moment to have a conversation to break that cycle. So, like, Alicent is, like, a very damaged, broken person as are most of the people on this show. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that the things she does are, like, wholly excusable. But, yeah, I'm not, I mean, in terms of the bad parent ranking, I just do not even... It's a crowded field. Put her in the top five, necessarily. It's a crowded field.

She goes from Egon's chambers to her own. own. Kristen is waiting. He's on the bed. He gets up. He walks over. She pushes him and shoves him around. Yeah. And then they begin to couple. Yep. Yet again. Company. And this is where we think that perhaps a, quote, animalistic sex scene. Carnal. Was cut from the show. Release the animalistic kernel cut. That's what I say. It was already a 69-minute episode. Nice. And they didn't have room for that.

They had to have Reneer watching dust modes. To be clear, I loved the dust moat sequence. So I wouldn't cut it. Joanna. Wigwatch? Whig watch? With Joanna Robinson? Will you wear wigs?

Love it. Thank you. Two things really quickly. Yeah. Number one. Kristen Cole's wig is really wigging out in this episode. And we know from like the next time on trailers. the terrible haircut is coming.

So they slapped this wig on him knowing that they were not going to use it for much of the season because he's getting like, I guess, a fresh cut to be like, I'm handed the king now. Gotta get my fresh cut in. So a haircut is coming for Kristen Cole. But the wig I thought this episode, especially rewatching season one when that's like Fabian, it's like, he has beautiful hair. So like his hair being so like lustrously. Oily is usually negative, but that's not how I would use it here. It's just got, anyway. The wig does not compare to the real thing.

Babeon, I hope you're... Okay, I'm sorry about your Instagram comments. Okay, and then also, I had so many emails and tweets. Thank you. About how much hair a four-year-old can grow? Okay. Can a four-year-old even grow as much hair as to hair as? Yes.

So many photographic evidence to that point. And I will just shout out one in specific, which is... Our listener, Lou, set in her baby Desmond. And Desmond is named Desmond because Lou was a storm listener during the pandemic. And so he's named for Desmond Hume because of the last podcast we did. So, of course, I'm sorry to all the other emails, but of course I'm going to prioritize the one where I guess I had some sort of gentle-handed naming a baby, Desmond. But yeah, there was a photo of Desmond who had like a baby Desmond or a four-year-old Desmond who had cut off a very long ponytail.

So four-year-olds can grow very long. care. They give all the parents and teachers who let me know. I appreciate you. Now we know. Boy, just a bunch of notes from medievalists and parents. Parents of four-year-olds. I love it. Me too. I love learning. A vibrant mix. Speaking of learning. No time for amusements, Thailand. It's time for the book. Look ahead. Okay. The sound of swords. That's your warning. We are about to do a little bit of, oh, what is being set up in this episode that is still to come in the story talk if you do not want to hear that. Time to go. Thanks for spending all of this time with us today.

We'll see you Thursday for Accolite. Acolyte. And we'll see you Sunday night for Talk to Thrones. Bye. Bye. Okay, everybody else. Book look ahead time. Where to begin?

Let's talk about the dipshits in the Black Council. Keltagar. this was an interesting one because he is really focused on how the people of the realm, how the small folk are going to respond for somebody who will be a, at least based on the text, large driver of inciting their rage and resentment. This is, we don't, we may not know about Aragorn's tax policy, but we do know about Bartramus, Kelty Gar's. Yeah.

And how about Sir Alfred, your guy? Alfred, my guy? Your guy. How dare you? Absolutely not. I will own Laris, you will own Magar, but none of us are owning Sir Alfred Broome, who sucks. They're doing a good job, even in this quick little exchange. He made me so mad.

So yes. Not a lasting bond here. A moment of anticipation for his grisly death? I honestly can't wait. Wherein he agonized for two days writhing and twisting before dying on the iron spikes that he has dropped on to. I honestly can't wait. Great. Also, our listener, Sam, messaged me and he was like, do you think the butcher's ball, which is where Kristen Cole dies, going to be like a national holiday? I'm actually, like, more excited for that than I was for the purple wedding than I was for Doffrey's death.

I can't wait for the butcher's ball. Cannot wait. And what I really hope when it comes to the butcher's ball is that it's as sort of like lame of a death as it is in the book. It should be absolutely just like some arrows got him at the end. And just to wind up in that. create Ali or anything else to like, you know, like it more exciting. Well, I just look this like very sad march of attrition. Yeah. Just, I can't wait.

Pathetic in the years. Yeah. In the words of Reneira. Joanna. Damon and Reneer. I don't want to confront the possibility that we might not see them together again this season. Connell says the remainder of the season is very, quote, the remainder of the season is very much a study of Damon and Reneer's marriage, which

I think just means thematically. Yes. Will they be studying that? Separately. Independently. One in a toehold. An independent study. Demon and Revere's marriage.

I was watching a video of Josh O'Connor talking about how he, like, mastered the Prince Charles' accent for the crown. And he says, the great tip to get into it is that instead of saying yes, you say yes, ears. So you say yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, interesting. Will you see me? Yes.

Yes. I like it. Now I know. Speaking of people, are we going to see them again this season? Otto, what is he going to do for the rest of the season? Like, how much are we going to see him? Like, are we going to get to see some High Garden, Beesbury antics? Are we going to see him fast...

Beesbury should be joining the story soon, so I hope so. I hope so. Are we going to see him fast forward to the Triarchy, like dealing with the Triarche? the triarchy or whatever. Like, what is, what is Otto? Or did Riesifans know he's not in the rest of the season? He's like, I'm going to put everything into this final scene. Oh, my God.

Can't be. No. That's why we only have six episodes left, but no. No. I mean, no. Obviously, more High Towers are coming. Right. Ormond, Gawain.

But, yeah, I can't imagine we'll be away from Otto for long. It would be great to go to High Garden. I don't know. But, God, I mean, if Darren's not coming until next season, Well, fuck. It's similar to Tom Glencarnie, who I believe is like, let me juice every second of screen time I have before I'm hideously disfigured. So you remember my face Pomemi time, you know?

Yeah. Oh, man. Elena? Little toys? What do you want to hit next? Yeah. Agon of Vassaris. Vassaris.

Oh, the honor. Playing with the little dragon. Oh, man, this got me. It did. I guess, like, maybe Storm Cloud's not going to be in the show, given their ages. I don't know if Facerus will still lose his egg, even if Storm Cloud isn't here and killed, and Eggon doesn't have his, like, tragic return flight. Like, I don't know. What will happen with the gay abandon in that whole plot?

There is that shot from, like, this season on trailer where we see, like, a clutch of dragon eggs on the move. which, you know, we think is like Raina taking them to the eerie, but like, will that, will it just be the eggs instead of the dragons instead or something like that? I'm so curious to see how they handle all that, but just in general, you know, knowing the future for Egg on the third and for Vassaris, the second, like, thinking, seeing them with this dragon imagery and like your mom handing this legacy to you. So for the non-book readers. Egg on the dragons bane. For the non-book readers, egg on the dragons fame. Yeah. Like, egg on a Vesaris and the future of the dragons after the dance is not great, Bob.

All right. Alice Rivers, who we're so excited to meet, who's at Heron Hall, has been cast. Gail Rankin as the actress who's playing Alice Rivers. We mentioned this in some of the lead-up if you were listening to all of those spoiler sections, but this idea that Alice Rivers, maybe like Melisandra, is a woman who has been around a long time but looks younger. So your question here was like, is Amon's preference for Madame Sylvie setting up his dalliance with an older woman in Alice Rivers? I do want to point out that Gayle Rankin is 34 and Ewan Mitchell is 27. I think they look roughly the same age, so it's not going to be as much.

It won't feel that way. It won't feel that way. So he is playing a character who is. much younger than 27. But he doesn't look much. He doesn't look at it, but he is supposed to be considerably younger than that. I don't think that age gap is going to be like as significant on the screen, but your canonical point stands. I mean, the way that the show has handled that, I would say, in general, has not been its strength in the sense that Allison looks like she is the exact same age as her children.

Because the performers are peers. So we'll see how that goes. But in addition to the, oh, okay, is this going to be setting up this like, I'm into older women thing, I need the mommy figure in my life. The actual milk part of it is difficult not to think about because Alice is the wet nurse, right? Like, are we going to see Aeman go straight from the teat here? That's tough. I'm expecting it now after what we saw in this episode. I got it.

Okay. Other Aeman things I want to talk about. Yeah. The Heron Hall mural in his room, I can't remember if we talked about it last week, but just, you know, just to re-underline this, like, many shots of him in his room have been. Yes, we did. Yeah. Like, but just the way it was framed in this week's episode just felt very like. Yes.

And here it is. Heron Hall. Hair and Hall. Again, if you're listening to the spoiler section, you're not a book reader. Heron Hall, not only where Amon is eventually heading, but where he and Damon will have a showdown. I can't wait. Probably my single most anticipated thing in the entire story. Similar to the cargo bowl will die in each other's arms.

The succession question posed by the absence of Maylor. So Jehires' younger brother, Maylor, not in the show. I mean, Amon just next in line for the throne. Right. Definitely. But that's not... Actually, to me, the thing that is odd about this is just that... I mean, I think that's unquestionably the case now.

What's odd about this to me is that when Jehares was alive, Amund talked about it like this was the case, when it wasn't. Like in season one episode nine, he's like, uh, I'm next in line. And if they look for me, I intend to be found, it's like, he's got a male heir. Yeah. So, yeah, no mail or. There's not a version of the story where Jahara can be air because then Agen's entire claim falls apart. Exactly. So it's Amund. Yeah. That's like, I don't know, it's just, in removing Maylor, they have recreated Reneura versus Damon. I was hung up on that last episode in terms of the Malar absence and what that

meant for Agon's line of succession. The thing I kind of like talked myself out of it just because mailor, and this could have changed. Mailer could have been in the show and then more present, but Mailor's like not present in Fire and Blunt until he reappears and then is immediately killed. So because he ultimately is also taken off the board. Yeah. And Eben is acting as Prince Regent rather than... Yeah. Okay.

Smallville carpenters? Oh, yeah. Just a lot of Storm and set up. Who will play The Shepherd? You know, after our David Tennant talk, I regretted not suggesting him to be the shepherd. Not too late, I think. Move over, Sir Bettis.

Oh, man. Yeah. So the Small Fitton. folk, the seas that they're planning for the fact that the small folk will eventually

rise up kill the dragons that remain in the dragon pit because they are so abused under this civil war. Very upsetting.

Again, to what we talked about, I think, a bit on Sunday, this idea that, like, I don't feel like the cargo bowl was set up very well

in terms of my emotional investment in those characters, but I see them doing so much work to set up various things. including the small folk, but also the seeds.

The seeds. Seeding the seeds. Going home with Hugh. So we talked last week about our shock that we were with Hugh this early, that we learned that Hugh was in King's Landing, that this was like... What's sending him to Dragonstone? Yeah. So that was already on our minds after last week. Now seeing him with the family.

Understanding, I think, being primed for like, okay, the money's not going to come. Right. That will be the thing that takes him from Agon's camp to Renieras. my question now watching it because like hearing him say specifically, like the selfishness of people, I'm kind of like he doesn't really seem like a bad guy. Like now that could change. Does he get drunk with power as soon as he becomes a dragon rider? No, I'm like this idea that like similar to Allison, we're just like we're creating a fully like formed human and not just like a shitty dude who was a traitor. Totally. Because the fact that Hugh, okay, again, I'm trying to explain for people who haven't read the books, but like Hugh and Ulf who become dragonriders will betray.

will betray Reneira and go to the other side. So there isn't a great humanistic explanation other than like drunkenness and greed for that move. So are we instead getting these two characters, Ulf and Hugh, meeting them now, meaning like getting to know them more, who when they make those moves, it will just make more humanistic sense.

Totally. And like I think we were starting to think last week, okay, well, will we under, I was thinking of it more like, will we understand that he was capable of before the great treachery. But now I'm thinking, like, okay, if the move is driven by desire to protect his family, then maybe that's also what drives the other thing. Or, like, yeah, is his family being threatened? That's a possibility. Does Laris have his family

or whatever? Like, is his family being threatened? Or does he see that the small folk are still suffering under Rainira? Something like that. Great setup for Adam and C-Smoke. Not just the way that he's looking up and looking at C-smoke, but the things that Adam says, if I had such a chance I would leap at it. Another opportunity to distinguish yourself. He's talking about getting on the ship, but we see that Adam is a character who will not miss his chance for something great. And Alan's like, he would answer the call for the sewing. I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Adam and Alan being set up as Corliss's bastard, right? Like he owes us, brother. So it seems clear they know that Corliss is their dad. Oh, they definitely know that Corliss is their dad. Which is, yeah, interesting. In the book,

there's this, the story is that they're Lenore's bastards. And then later it's like, but actually maybe they're Corliss as bastards. But no matter what, if they're Corliss as bastards, do we have any questions about, like, where their dragon riding blood comes from? Because I was looking at the family tree. Yeah. Because if they're Lenore's kid, kids, which age-wise does not make sense or whatever,

like, that Targaryen blood comes from Rainies. Yeah. Right. The Valerians are not dragon riders. And looking up Corliss's family tree, I'm not seeing, like, Yeah. Like his, in classic Jared Tolkien style, it's like Corliss's dad and then question mark for his mom. I think we should plan outside of the book reader section when we learn who they are in the show to do a much longer breakdown of like how could Adam be a ride or what are all the possibilities.

I was chatting. I actually was like chatting with Riley and Cram about this before the season because like sort of anticipating that this would, you know, be something we were talking about soon, trying to run through all the scenarios. and, like, I think there are a few. One is just, and I think Nettles was going to be one of the characters who was our way into discussing this, but the idea that, like, maybe you don't have to be a Targaryen to be a rider. Maybe when you talk about propaganda, what greater bit of propaganda could there be than we are closer to gods than men because we're the only ones who could do this.

So that's one possibility. It's just they don't have Targaryian blood and you don't need it. Right. I think another possibility is, to your corallus point, that somewhere, because the Valarians and the Targaryans are old Valerian family, so it's somewhere in there. There is some Targaryen blood in his line. Yeah. Their mother could be a seat. Right. That seems totally implausible. I love that idea. Yeah. Though I would love... And there are other possibilities, too, but I think those are some of the

answers. I think maybe it would be too, maybe it would just be way too obvious if Adam had silver hair, but it's interesting that he doesn't, you know? Ulf, you loved your time with Ulf. I loved my Oof intro. I thought it was wonderful. Condal has said that Darren has not been cast, but dodged the question when it comes to Nettles. Shout out David Jacoby, our colleague and listener,

who is Nettles number one fan. Nettles this season. So many texts from Jacobi about Nettles. A lot of Nettles texts came to us. I love it. The best. Do we want or need Nettles this? I kind of like the idea of saving Nettles this season. for Season 3, if we're, if we have to like, Hugh and Ulf and Adam and Alan and like all, you know, and Alice Rivers and all these people that we're going to meet.

Simon Strong. Yeah. Wayne Hightower. Like, we're meeting all these people. Yeah, it's a lot. Darren and Nettles roll up in season three and get more of like a spotlight intro. I really hope Nettles is in the show. I don't mind spacing till season three and separating her entry into the story from the sewing and the seats.

I was wondering if the silver-haired dancer in the brothel, not. like that she's necessarily a dragon seed. But if we have this theory, wild theory based on one shot from the week ahead trailer, but like, Elinda. Elinda Raneira's handmaiden is in King's Landing. Has she been sent there by Miss Arria to be like, round up all the silver-haired people you can find? Or here's a list of people that there's rumors that they might be Targaryen bastards of some kind or another. Is that brothel dancer on the list?

I'd pick her out as a Targaryen bastard if it were me, but, you know, or she's just there because, as Masaria said in season one, she's got some blonde ones. Oh, man. Jace? Jason Bela. Yeah. I, in terms of running the Sowing the Seeds, the Dragon Seas program. Yeah. Renier in the library, big part of that.

Yes. Mm-hmm. Jace is obviously running this. program in the book is a big part of that. Just, well, I mean, and mushroom. But what is Bayla's level of involvement going to be? Because we remember that Bayla was under Damon's tutelage in Pentos. So is this like a Damon-Ranera, sorry, is this a Bayla-Ranera Jace joint?

Right. That shot of the Dragon Seas at the table, it's like the Dragon Seas are down here, then there's a gap. And then it's Jace and Bela. and Ranira. And of course, that's where they'd be sitting anyway, but it's just sort of like a, like, we're in charge, you are the people that we have drafted sort of thing. I don't know. It's interesting to me. I love it. Also on the Jace front. Yeah. Did it freak you have to see a crossbow so close to Jace? Because Jace will eventually be taken down. As you know, by some mirish crossbow girls. I have been incredibly reluctant to concede that Gullet is not happening this season, even though it is just clearly not happening this season. And they have literally said, we have. to move a major battle to season three. Like, it's not happening season. I resisted, and now I'm really happy. Because I just am not ready to say goodbye to Jays.

It's going to be devastating. And, like, his scenes in the first two episodes have been so good. Yeah. Oh, man. And Vermax. Devastating. I think his eagerness to,

his frustration that Reneer won't let him hop on the dragon and go patrolling. The little, like, petulant pommel sword, uh, move. which is a classic Damon, like, move. He's like, well, fine. If you can't lean in a doorway, lean against your pommel. And his line to baila of, like, I miss Luke, he's not going to let another one of his brothers go.

And all of this is just like placing up, leading up to this gullet moment where Jace goes to rescue his little toe-headed brothers and dies. And I think this is also where aging Jopheff down. Because in the book, Jop's like, let me get on my dragon and go get vengeance for Luke. Like, he's really kind of like the bloodthirsty one initially. And so he's just like really young in the show. And so Jace being, I mean, obviously he already, you know, Gallaud is Jace's plot in the book anyway,

but Jace being even more of our access point for like, I will be the one who fights not only to avenge my lost loved ones, but to ensure that no harm befalls anyone I care about again. And then for Joph, because Jop does have to still get to the point where he can get his little butt on a dragon. He's got to get on Cyrax. Like, that all has to happen. I mean, that's way in the future of the story. I'm still, like, for many reasons, but that among them, I'm like, are they stretching the dance timeline a little bit to age some of these kids up?

But, yeah, the J's stuff is going to be fucking gutting. Speaking of gutting, Rini's saying, in the meantime, I am here in Maley, We will not let the queen falter. Also, the mind-yourself moment. Reneer is about to lose that ally that source of support. They're doing this a really good job. They are. With the Rainy's scenes.

Because if we think... That's going to hit really hard. If Rooks rest where Rainies dies on Malies, if that happens in episode four, which we think, because that episode's called a Dance of Dragons, if that's what that episode is, they only... I mean, they had a whole season, but they've got three plus episodes.

to make us really bummed out that Reney's died. I would have been bummed out, whatever. So to make her such an important source of support for Reneira, to remind us of her warmth and intimacy with Corleys, like, you know, and then to take it away. And who will fill that void? Not exactly the same, not a dragon rider. But in terms of new people in Reneer's life who she can maybe look to

and trust. Good Masaria set up in these first couple episodes. She needs a schemer on her team, and she doesn't have one. Enter Masaria. There's this line from the trailer. Your web runs unseen through Kings Landing. Nice little Master of Whisperer set up there. There's this line from the trailer where Masaria says there's more than one way to fight a war.

So, you know, it's just sort of like, okay, Damon's like, let's get on their dragons and go. And Masaria's like, how about some intrigue? Yeah. What's a Linda up to? You know, like, whatever. I also thought on the Rainera front that her paranoia is being, like, which is going to be a later part of the story, but they're doing a good job already and have been really since the beginning. Like always wondering when somebody's allegiance will fade, when somebody who said they were on her side wouldn't be anymore. This has kind of been the story of Reneer's life.

But even just like, at best I lose an asset to my cause, this is to Misaria. At worst, you betray me in some foul way. I have no interest in betraying you your grace, so you say. Reneira being a character who is never sure if allegiance is real or lasting. I cannot trust you, Damon. It's such a part of what goes wrong. I cannot trust you, Damon. And the way I already talked about Darren, but just like thrilling.

Do you think, okay, here's my question. Thrilling. Yeah. Do you think they would ever do a thing where they don't show us Darren until he shows up at the battle on the Dragonback? Totally possible. Yeah. And we're like, who the fuck is that? I mean, we know.

I can see it. And we'll be like, Darren, and everyone else at home is going to be like, who's that? Yeah. There's another dragon? Why is it blue? A little season one, wait, who is his character energy? Yeah, why not? Great.

I hope we get Honeywine. I hope we get Bitterbridge. I mean, Honey Wine would have to move in order if Darren's not in the show till next season, but, and obviously, Tumpleton awaits. So I'm just thrilled that Darren has been mentioned. I'll settle for that for now. Yeah, fair enough. All right, we did it. We did it.

Anything else? No, I think we really did it. That's a wrap. On this very long podcast, Steve has acceded to this prank. Thank you to our small counsel. John Richter and Steve Allman for producing this episode.

Arjuna Ramgo Pall for his additional production work on this episode and Jo Mia Denner on for his work on the social for this episode. We will see you on Thursday for our Accolate. Deep Dive, Episode 5, Accolyte, Sunday, right after House of the Dragon episode three for Talk the Throves. That's it. After all, we've done for you.

Thoughtless. Beckless!