House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 4 Deep Dive. Plus: Ewan Mitchell! | House of R

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

The dance has begun, and it's time for Mal and Jo to dive deep into the explosive fourth episode of ‘House of the Dragon.' They begin with their opening snapshot (06:12) to discuss their overall impressions before going scene by scene into the intriguing, witchy, and dragon-battling wonder (09:38). Later they are joined by Aemond "One Eye" himself, Ewan Mitchell, to discuss his role in this episode and what it took for him to inhabit his scheming character (03:22:15). All before diving into their book spoiler section to take a look ahead at what the next episode might bring (03:41:17). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ewan Mitchell Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. But to unite the realm, I had to send the dragons to war. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Viseras told me when he named me his heir. What Jehires had told him? And what I will now tell you. What is it?

He called it The Song of Ice and Fire. Greetings and welcome to House of Ar, a Ring of Verse podcast, on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Rook's Rest. Everything's going to be fine, but also back into the House of Our. We've been decorating. We have.

Joining me today, asking if she can have to make a war? It's Joanna Robinson. I prefer you refer to me as an owl curse to live in human form. Thank you so much. Barn owl. Love a barn owl. Joe, we are back to dive oh so deep. Profoundly.

Into House of the Dragon, season two, episode four. They will not expect it because it is fucking madness. And by it, I mean whatever the eventual runtime of this podcast today is. First, some very quick programming reminders over on the ringer verse. The Midnight Boys, boom, boom. Double action on Thursday once again. It's the Ackleight episode seven and it is the Boys episode seven. Here on the House of Our, we will also be covering the Ackleite episode seven on Thursday.

And then we will be back on Sunday night, The Moment. The instant. Hot D, episode five ends for Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan. All of that, by the way, available for you to watch on Spotify. for you to watch on the brand spanking new Ringerverse YouTube channel. Correct. While you're at your computer or on your phone, because you're going to that YouTube channel to hit subscribe,

go to the ringer.com slash events and get tickets to the live show. Oh, my gosh. Where can people come hang with us? Oh, we're going to be at the El Ray Theater. Yeah. What are we going to be doing? Oh, we're going to be talking about stuff. About stuff.

Yeah, with the gang. We're made the team. We have a really good idea for our game this time that I'm very excited about. It's going to be a blast. Yeah. Also, Jomi did make a specific request That everybody who is attending Be aware of one crucial thing

It is his birthday Yeah So not only do you get to come to Ringervus Live You get to come share Jomey's birthday with him Wow Who would want to miss that? How could you miss that? Presence is not required but also

The old your presence is the present Yeah, you know? Gently suggested. Yeah, join us. If you want to wear costumes Again, I heard people were wearing costumes The Tocet Thrones and I never get to see them If you want to wear costumes

I would like to see them So delightful. Where are them? Delightful. Joanna, how can the people follow along to this year podcast? Wow, I'm so glad you asked me. Listen, here's what I suggest. Why don't you just subscribe to the pod and or the YouTube channel?

Do it. Why don't you do both of those things? Yeah. Why don't you follow us on social? Do it. That might be a good thing to do. We're on Twitter. We're on TikTok.

We're on, as we mentioned, did we mention YouTube? And last but not least, email us. Yes. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The email inbox has been bursting. Thank you, Steve. With the hottest of takes for hot D. And we love all of them.

So, yeah, send them along. Hobbit and Dragons at gmail.com. Lastly, friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Yeah, yeah. It's the same as always for a hot D pod. We will obviously be going beat by beat through this episode of television. Anything that has ever happened in House of the Dragons

seasons one or two, it might come up today. Anything that's ever happened in Game of Thrones, it might come up today. Correct. In terms of the literary canon, we will be chatting about quoting from Fire and Blood, Song of Ice and Fire, throughout the pod for added context, history, insights, but anything that's the future of fire and blood. We're not going there. Separate. Separate little book section at the very end, you will have, as always, a real-time spoiler warning right on the precipice of that. Any other spoiler warnings?

Yeah, I'll just say that I got some feedback about talking about Dunkin Egg because there's a new Duncan Egg TV show that's coming out and we were talking about the Duncan Egg stories because I had been reading them and they were on my mind and someone was like, hey, can you maybe not talk about, I don't think I actually spoiled anything, but people are being a little, they want to go in clean on Dunkin Egg. So we are going to reference it a little later on, but we're going to issue like a little mini, we're just going to mini spoiler warning that Dunkin Egg.

Click on. Yeah, just breeze through it. All right, Joe. If I know the Riverlands, we have more disentangling ahead of us than the end of a Lycenae. So it's time to pot the Red Dragon and the Gold. Episode four, directed by Alan Taylor, written by Ryan Contal. This is the team. You knew it's going to be a big one when you saw that.

56 minutes, relatively compact compared to the runtimes this season so far. And yet, boy, was this a doozy. So let's start there. This is not a sentence, but an honor, the opening snapshot. Joanna. Mallory. We're going to hit every second of this episode, so we're going to keep the opening snapshot truly snappy today. Breezy.

But give us a taste. What did you think of this episode of television? I love this episode. I love seeing how well it was received as well. It seems like broadly people really loved it. I still think three is my favorite of the four we've gotten so far, but I thought this was an incredible episode of television, a really great blend of action. and spectacle with character work. You know, you and I have talked so much about the way in which spectacle in the end days of Game of Thrones could, like, sort of swallow character development and something like that.

And I did not feel like that was the case here. Yeah. So I loved that. I do want to shout out, first email that I want to shout out is from our listener. Tyler, who suggested that we should call, Agon was looking for a nickname. Yeah. Agon Chargarian. How do you feel about it? It's extremely strong. Yeah. Agon Chargarian.

Agon, the Dragon Cock was good, but Chargarian is tough to top. Hail, hail. Hell, hell. The Conqueragrant. Egg on the conqueror, babe. Yeah. Chargarian. Great stuff. I love it. Thank you for that wonderful email and suggestion, Tyler. Is your broadstrokes take on this episode. Also, I'm sorry, I didn't say it. Which stuff? So much which stuff. I'm so excited. Which stuff go. Actually, not yet. We'll get there. Which stuff? Hold. Put a pin in it.

Big are. Wait. Which stuff just kind of like settling back into the grass. Yeah, I was just like fold out and huff into my laptop and wait to go. Okay. Oh, man. I thought this episode was sensational. So much to parse and break down. So many things that I love. It made me so deeply emotional. I just thought this was like not only inside of the story. a wonderfully rewarding experience, but to your point, you could feel it in real time. People watching, people talking about it, people texting you, people jumping online.

Like, it felt like a rekindling of that Sunday night feeling. And I just like, that's just like, it's this really special, wonderful thing that we cherish and it's been such a big part of our lives. So like the idea of that being back is magical to me. I got on the Sunday night Twitter, like, feed in a way that I have in a a really long time. And just, like, watching people's reactions for it in was really, really fun.

Yeah. It was fun. Yeah, yeah. And a ton of people were, like, tune in to watch Talk the Thrones right when it hit. We're all having a blast together. That's great. What a joy.

I can't believe we're already halfway through the season, but we've got four episodes left. Hopefully they're all bangers. Can't fucking wait. Also, by the way, we should mention. Didn't mention this at the top. We have an interview today. We do.

Who is joining us? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Cover your eye. Is it this one? That one? It's AIM and One Eye himself. You and Mitchell's here. Yes. So that is very exciting because obviously it's a huge AIM and episode. So we will, after we break down the episode, have our chat with you and Mitchell.

And then the book spoiler section will be at the end after that. Kinslayer. Delightful. Okay. Should we head to the Bowels of a Pleasure Den for the Deep Dive? Always. In the Bowels of a Pleasure Den. Magical. Joanna, we will start, as always, where the episode begins. This time it is with Damon the dreamer.

Nice. Having a normal one. Yeah. Caught in another dream state, this time wandering into the throne room of the Red Keep. Now, the throne room as the setting of some sort of targ vision or dream, this is the stuff, Lionel, indeed. Makes us think, of course, of Danny. in the House of the Undyying from a clash of kings.

Beyond loomed cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-gray hair. Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, he said to a man below him, let him be the king of ashes. And then immediately after that, of course, in the House of the Undying sequence, Danny wanders into a vision of Rhaegar talking about, not in the throne room but still. Prince that was promised.

Prophecy. The song of ice and fire. Were you wishing that it had been snowing in the throne room when Matt Smith wandered in? No, that gets me PTSD now, honestly. Is it snow or is that? I think it's really interesting that a lot of the trailer moments that we were like, what's that, what's that, what's that? We're like, oh, dream stuff, dream stuff, dream stuff.

Got it. Incredible. I was thinking of the house of the undying a little later when Alice gives Damon something to drink, which we'll talk about in a bit. Yeah. Is that what is in your mug today? Yeah, shade of the evening, right? In Clash Kings, they say, come with me to the house of the undying and you shall drink

of truth and wisdom. And a reminder of the house of the undying, in addition to being like one of the of the sickest sequence that happened on the TV show and in the books, was a trap for Dineris and her dragons. And so, like, is this, are we watching a trap for Damon? We're just going to try to suck her dry into a husk. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Of magic. Okay. Of magic. Sure. Yeah. Why not both? Do you think we should start saying you shall drink of truth and wisdom at the beginning of every podcast?

Let's do it. Cheers. Thanks for the new mug. Mallor brought us in these dragon egg mugs. Thanks for that, Mal. Well, it felt better toasting with our dragon egg mugs or when we did like a little crossing swords thing with the chapstick. I think the chapstick was more authentically us,

but this is on theme. Okay, so the throne room. Yeah. This has, of course, been a crucial, dare I say elemental, location for one demon Tagarian. Across House of the Dragon so far, it is literally where we first meet him. I'm there.

In inversion of this dream sequence, Reneira, Sir Harold, behind God's be good, and walking toward Damon who is sitting, waiting on the throne. And this room has been across all of these great Damon sequences the sight of both his ambition, the thing that he feels he has been robbed of, the thing that other people certainly think he seeks. Right.

And also his shame. This is where, again, he met Runeira found, him for the first time. This is where Vassarous ousted him at the beginning of the series premiere after that air for a day. Just tough one still. The Stepstones return. Where he debuted a truly ill-considered haircut. I thought it was great. I thought it was great and I thought it looked great under the Driftwood crown, though. Because he did immediately hand the crown over, then yeah, maybe we should have played out the string on that one a little bit more. Damon just all the hair works. Didn't we just decide that he couldn't get all the blood out? So he's like, fuck it, I'll cut it off.

Yeah, you know, I think it's whether it was the staining of the blood or just the gray scale exposure concerns. Who can say? Either way. Who can say? Crab feeder. Christmas is him still. Viceris asking him a second time in the fourth episode after he took Reneira to... To the bowels of the Pleasuredine.

This is the site of the Lena and Reneira dances. Some interesting charge moments there. And of course, like our favorite, the Vissaris Crown Assist in the eight. episode and then the Damond. Yeah. Slaying. He can keep his tongue.

I love that it's like, yeah, so much has happened for Damon in this room, more than any other character, I would say. Yeah. And maybe Vissaris, you could argue. But this idea of like his good guy moment. Like we get the crown drop in a second. And it's just sort of like, as we know from behind the scenes, this is like a somewhat improvised moment.

But like we talk about it all the time when Damon picked up Vasaris's crown This is like The moment We're like That's good in him I can feel it

Like it's there You know And you know He feels that pride in himself too Because it was such a big part of what he called back to With Rhenera with then on Dragonstone Did I not put the crown

On your head I thought it was really notable That because this is not reality Because this is a dream state And in theory Any circumstance can manifest Damon walks into This private setting

Right It's just him Reneira and what they carry between them. There's no, like, wading, assembled throng, like when he came back from the stepstones or when Viseras last entered that room on the long walk. This is just his ghosts and his judgment, right? It's not about glory or celebration. And it also is fun to think about whether the statue of Vesaris that we know has been added

to the throne room, which, like, on the one hand, Damon doesn't know. But, like, he would probably presume had been carved at this point is maybe they're watching over them. Yeah. I don't think I looked for Vassaris at the Trident. I looked for Veseris there. I looked for Veseris there and I didn't see him. Oh, man.

I loved the framing too. Seeing Damon approaching through those barbs of steel. And the dream nature of the muffled dialogues he's walking in, you know, and he's like, speak plainly. That fog. Yeah. Yeah, that dreamy fog. You know, to your point about how so much of this was in the trailer and we were kind of like, ooh, intriguing, what is this?

I, on the dialogue being muffled and foggy, felt actually like in notable contrast to the crispness of the visuals, which weren't heavily altered and distorted to make us think we were in a different plane of reality. It's like you could mistake that for real life, which is part of what is so for Damon, you would imagine, destabilizing about it. Right. And they haven't done that yet. I don't know if they will eventually, but they haven't done any like, whoa, camera tricks to be like, this is a dream, you know. So he finds young Reneera. And what does she say to him, Joanna? She says a bunch of stuff. David Peterson, who does all the language for House of Dragon, Game of Thrones, Dune, just your go-to guy if you want a fictional language.

He, I don't know why. I love this. I just love this about him. He loves posting extra things on AO3, archive of our own, the fan fiction website. And so he posted, so the muffled. dialogue he posted on AO3. So young Reneira says this from the start.

She says, it's been said that Targaryens are closer to gods than to men. We talk about this a lot. Yeah. In my eyes, you were a god, Damon Targaryen, the prince of the city, the lord of flea bottom. I was an innocent. You exploited me and abandoned me. You sullied my name at court. You empowered my rivals.

You tried to make my ruin. You put me on that throne and you love me and you hate me for it. And then this is the part that we could hear. You created me, Damon, yet you are now set on destroying me, all because your brother loved me more than he did you. And then... Yeah. Scenes from a marriage?

Scenes from a marriage. Scenes from an uncle and niece. Totally normal interaction. Seasons from an incestual marriage. I love calling back to the closer to gods than men, Renera Vassarra's conversation. But also the Prince of the City, the Lord of Flea Bottom, these like early titles, titles, titles that we had for Damon. You know, on the damn ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like. Ah, absolutely fantastic. This was interesting, too, because, and we'll talk about this elsewhere in the pod at more length when we get to the Amund-Agon, High Valerian. Yes. Public flogging there. We saw Damon and Rainiera speak fluently in High Valerian so often in Season 1, and it was this thing that made their. relationship feel, like fully realized and distinct in a way that, like, other people were not able to participate in. And so hearing Reniro speak Valerian here, but Damon speak the common tongue,

like he's out of sync with his own life. Yeah, that I've been thinking a lot about that ever since I were like, I tried to talk about this and talk to Thrones. I don't think it was really the format for it because Chris was like, why did you watch a 20-minute video where people speak high Valerian? I was like, you don't know me or my life. I don't know. Chris is, I have been staying current on my longtime favorite podcast to watch. And Chris is, I would say every 47 seconds, dropping some sort of nugget or factoid now on the watch. About House of the Dragon?

Oh, yeah. Oh, he's in. He's in deep. Remember when he got... I am so proud. He got Willem Blackwood right in the outline. It was amazing. Incredible.

But rewatching all the moments where they spoke High Valerian in season one. So not just Rainier and Damon, but all the moments. Because there's like the dragonkeepers as well and like whatever it is. Sweet little Luke. Yeah. Yeah. Jace stumbling his way through, etc.

It just becomes so apparent this like bubble that they create. Yeah. Rob Mahoney talked about this a lot when we were covering Shogun, this idea that like this bubble of language that you can create into this own little like private world that you can have with someone even when you're in public. Which has done so well in the Amin-Agon conversation. Yes. But I don't know I think this is brilliant

I love this All the dream stuff is just It's been so good Really working for me It's been so good Witch stuff go Now Oh my wish is ready

Oh okay I'm so ready We might need a witch stuff go The graphic for this episode Think about it What did you make of a Joe What do you think it tells us Specifically this created

idea That Damon Either this or this magically manipulated or cursed castle-influenced dream or Damon's subconscious and what is bubbling to the fore because of the place he finds himself, this idea that he himself is saying, like, I created Renira. How much of that to you is about the idea of, like, power and the almost arrogance of that? Like, I have the ability to forge somebody else's circumstance or my allegiance lends heft and credence to reclaim,

which even Reneira herself said in season one, right? How much of it is about the shame of having to confront the fact that she became heir, as Viseris plainly says at the bonfire, because he had to save the realm from Damon. Or as Reneer will then tell, you know, tell Damon during their harrowing, riveting fight in the second episode of this season, he was not afraid of you, Damon. He could not trust you anymore than I can. trust you. I think also it's this idea of like when you rewatch season one, he's constantly, like, in his conversation with her, constantly being like, you and I, we're the same. We're not so

different you and I. We're not like your dad, my brother, right? We're strong. We're dragon writers. We are fearsome, blah, blah. So he is in a certain respect, like molding her in his image in a way that Vassaris doesn't. And I think he always took a lot of pride in that. Yeah. But I think what he's experiencing now with his frankly haunted therapy sessions that he's having in Harenhal is like, was that a good thing? What kind of ruler would Rennara be or, you know, what would her path in life have been if I had never, you know, strapped a, you know, necklace around her when she was a child? Shared piece of our history. Yeah. Wonderful gift. Still, creepy and weird, but wonderful. I love that. It makes me think, too, of later in the episode

when our guy well in Blackwood says, like, she was the true blood of the dragon. And it almost felt like Damon would receive that with simultaneously jealousy and fierce pride, right? Yeah. But she was and is worthy. But also just like, yes. But other people see in her what he wants them to see in him. All of that and also slight regret, I think. But that's fresh, brand new.

Oh, yeah. Emotions for Damon. Yes. He is not inclined to parse his regret, but he is being. confronted with it here in a way that is undeniable. Undeniable. I love that. So he slices off her head with Dark Sister. Very tough. Of course, even though this is a dream state, it does cause us to think about the fact that Damon has, in fact, it must be said, we have an obligation to remark upon it,

killed his wife before. I mean, define kill. Murder clock at all. Murder club. Definitely also. The dress that she's wearing here is the dress that she's wearing. here is a dress that she was wearing in the finale last season. And there's two things that he did in the finale, many things, but two things he did. Yeah. He put the crown on her head. Yep. And he choked her. Yes. And so I don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, the beheading of her in this sequence, um, makes me think, made me immediately think of Vamond. Of course. Even though he only took half of Vamond's head. But made me think of Vamond in that, that moment. Um, but also just made me think of like his hands on her throat. Like he choked her. terrible. So like, and the way that I was, haunted by that memory. The way that I was thinking about it is just sort of like, because I just wanted to double check and make sure it was the same dress. And so as we were watching that scene where he chokes her, which is horrifying. And the way that she looks at him. Oh, yeah. You know what he means? Like scales falling from her eyes. Something is broken. Yeah, this is who you are. And like, the way she almost tauntingly says, like, you don't know about the prophecy. Yeah. Which is echoed later in the pathetic, your pathetic. So it's not just like a broken trust, but just sort of that idea of like you were a god to me, as this young Reneer says in the start of the scene. And now he's like, that's not ever who he's going to be to her again. That's so insightful because like we have the, I have challenges enough moment in the fight, which nothing about the particulars of their circumstances are relatable to the people watching the show or reading the story, obviously. But like that element felt so true to life to me of like when just you. reach the point with somebody where you kind of can't tolerate the things about them that you used to find endearing anymore. But like what you're identifying is a different level entirely of

the shattered illusion and how that illusion is the thing that actually obscures the truth of who they are, right? When you're younger, when you're enchanted, whatever the case may be. And like, Damon is in most respects unchanged. Like, he has had experiences. that have shaped him and he's evolved like every character. Of course, we love a character in an arc. He's certainly on an arc right now. Yeah, but he, yeah, we've been talking about this, this arrested development for Damon. Yes, and this muddled, like the defining, this is the gray character has always been true for him.

It's a way in which... And so Renera's perspective is the thing that has shifted, not Damon's behavior. She's grown up. Allison has grown up. I think it's one of the... I don't know that this, I don't think this was intentional at all. But, like, one of the silliest things in the casting is that, like, Matt Smith looks... pretty close to the same that he did when we first met him in season one, episode one of House of the Dragonza. The Dragon.

Does this bother you more or less than Olivia Cook being three years older than her canonical children? She's only one year older than Tomlin Carty. All right. That's three years as you in. Yeah. So Olivia Cook herself has been in like recently being like, it's pretty stupid, right? They just look like peers, but somehow I've moved on from it, but it's wild. It doesn't bother me only because they're so good at what they do. They're incredible. But, like, Fabian Frankel and Matt Smith are the, and, and Risi Fons are, like, the three who have, like, you know, are still here. And I would say, Fabian looks pretty much the same.

I think the hair changes have, like, made him look less like the dashing young, whatever and a little more, like, I'm ridiculous now with my haircut. I saw a photo of his stunt double, and they had to put that dumb haircut on his stunt double. and I felt so bad for him. Anyway. I feel like they slightly aged Otto and Corlis up this season. Oh, and Corlis too. Of course. And Rainies.

Yes. I agree with all of that. I just think they've done the least with Matt Smith. And I'm not mad about it. But I think it, whether intentional or not, really drives home that arrested development idea. Yeah, second time. Yeah. It's a great call.

It's a great call. Demon, we're looking at his hair. He's looking at something else. It's the severed head of Renier on the ground. I'm bleeding freely. So that's just blood in the mortar, Heron Hall, some blood on the third floor here. In the grout, you're never going to get it out of the grout.

It's never going to happen. This is what you always want it. Is it not? Yeah. But is it? Her out of the way. Do you think that this is demon asking himself this? Do you think that it is the magic of Harron Hall,

Alice is working? Do you think that those things are entwined? It's how the magic amplifies, whatever is within. This is a super solter. hear him. I do. I think all of this stuff comes from inside of him. And Alice is just playing him like an instrument and just sort of like plucking the threads of like that are most sensitive to him. One instrument when Damon Targarym be? A loot. I was just going to say a little. But perhaps I was intercepted by you saying plucking. But I like to think that we just both went

loot. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Perhaps because loot train is on the mind. Different spelling. No. Never. No. No. Okay. All right. Move over, Grover. Oscar Tully is here. Damon wakes because Renera's severed head starts to say that there is a raven and he wakes to find that this is what Sir Simon Strong is telling him in real life. There's a great little moment where Damon sees the blood, the beheading blood. Totally. On his hand and then it kind of vanishes. So you really have that heightened sense of the whoever did that.

It's like a shovel touch. Because it's like quick and then it's gone. And he's like looking at his hands. Like, did I actually see that? So the bleed, you know. The bleed was thin, you said. Where the walls were thin, right? She said it in this episode, too.

Alice said, sleep is thin. I know we have a lot of important stuff to talk about, but can we actually just because you've already taken us to Fit Watch already? Yeah. Can we just spend a moment on Sir Simon Strong's lush, resplendent, eggplant velvet drip, which I thought was sensational? It was wonderful. I told you that it reminded me of bronze Jan Royce.

One of my faves of all time. Jan Royce, who used to wear his bronze breastplate and then like a fur-line silky robe over it, just like fit lord. Great stuff. Jan Royce. This is what Simon Strong is giving for me. This was sensational.

It's so great that he's here. Love to see that he gets the sir in the opening credits as well. Simon Russell Beale. Fantastic stuff. Sir Simon Russell Beale. Sir Simon and Damon Yeah make their way

through the frankly dilapidated halls of Harren Hall I don't know what star rating Harren Hall has currently

but it can't be a good one It's not good It can't be a good one Excited to chat later about the random black goat Who is milling about You'll have some

lovely insights coming on that later in a different context And Simon tells Damon that over the past Fortnite Joanna we love a

love a time for a bit of time frame specificity. We get one here over the past fortnight. This is even more confusing. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. This is the time frame for Kristen's campaign so far. Okay.

So Kristen has been doing this for two weeks. Yeah. But later, Allison says it has just been a few weeks since Vassar has died, and I wish she hadn't said that. I was so, I've referenced this before just because it was a thing that happened this year on television that really worked its way into my forever heart. there was a moment, an instantly iconic moment on this season of Survivor, where one of the characters, characters is a real person, one of the cast members, one of the contestants, was kept trying to use the word several, Jolensky.

And Jeff Probst was just dismayed by Jolensky's use of several, which was not correct. And it became a running bit throughout the season. And so it made me, this from Allison to make me think a little bit of Jolensky, Maybe she's using weeks very liberally because, you know, months are made up of weeks. Who can say how much time? It's been 12 weeks. Some might say months, but not I.

Not I, Allison High Tower. Great stuff. Great stuff. So over that fortnight, Rosby and Stokeworth have fallen to Kristen, who Simon assumes, reasonably, is surely making his way to Harenhall. And he explains to Damon, what did you call Heron Hall in our notes, Mallory Rubin? Harry H. Really funny. Go ahead.

Harry H. I think sometimes this is like my OCD where despite the extreme astonishing length of our outlines and like this would not matter. I'm like, if two extra letters takes this to one more line. Wow. Maybe that's what happened. I don't know. No, it seems like it. It's right on the margin there.

Looking at it out, I'm like, is that why I did that? That's definitely why you did that. So Simon tells Damon, both houses, cited that sad business with the usurper son in their declarations. I love this. I loved this because they're on the move. Yes. The camera's like behind them and Simon Russell Beale just sort of tosses it away. So like it hits for Damon and it hits for all of us.

But he's not trying to like necessarily trying to like wound Damon in this moment. But all of us are like, ooh. Yeah. Damon has to confront the fact that the thing he did with blood and cheating. has genuinely, undeniably swung the numbers to the grains. He enters our... One of our favorite rooms, this dining chamber, which I still love. And at the dining table, Damon finds neither a delicious offering, Joanna, of aged venison,

nor any black cabbage, nor any poisoned who can say, peas. He does find, however, the hailing. And Hardy, Oscar Tully, who was there instead of his grandsire Grover, because presumably Grover, you know, we hear here is alive, thanks to the meager drink. One feather pillow away from death. One feathered pillow. No one with a leaking anus at the dining table. And so that's nice.

That's nice, Joe. As far as we know. Question for you. Elmo, Oscar's father kind of alluded to here, so killed off without a scene in House of the Dragon. Oscar identified as the heir to River Run. This means no Kermit Tully. So is your read on this, who is his older brother in the book,

the people making House of the Dragon are just like the Sesame Street stuff. It's just too much. Let's just go right to Oscar. I didn't put this email in our notes, but I was just reminded of it, so I want to read it from our listener, Ryan. It is titled the Demuppetification of House Tully. Yes.

And it said, could not stand by silently without commenting on what Mr. Condal is done to the proud history of House Tully. Lord Elmo Tully being dead off screen and unnamed, fine. But Kermit seems to have emerged into his younger brother, Oscar. He of the less conspicuously Muppeteen name. Exactly. Justice for Sir Kermit. Yeah, they're like, Oscar, this could just be a person's name.

I just shout out Ryan for the word demuppification and Muppeteen. The Muppeteen name. Yeah. If we have the pleasure of having Ryan a Condole back at the end of the season, let's not forget to ask him about this. I will not sit silently by at this Kermit erasure. Oh, Karna. I was looking more at the Kermit. I thought Oscar was so hilarious and delightful, but I was bummed about Kermit.

Speaking of Oscar being hilarious and delightful and having to confront some... This kid was great, by the way. Genuinely good. The moment where we go like the kind of initial stuff. mumbling through the introduction and the moment where Damon sits down and away reminded me of what I asked. He sits in a way so that Oscar like can't access his chair, which reminded me of how we have to access the chairs. No, no, no, no, no, let's be clear.

How you actively choose to sort of... If I pull the chair out, then I can't remember the exact way it's supposed to be. And so it's just easier for me to do. Yeah, but imagine... Imagine that awkward, like, fish flop that you do into the chair anyway. Shout out, House Tully. Imagine that, but you also have a sword that's too big for you, buckled to your side,

and that's what happened to pour a little Oscar here. Wonderful stuff. They then share a not at all uncouth or astonishing conversation. Steve, can we hear this? Quote. Well, my time is short and I have

need of an army. Perhaps you might place a feather pillow over his head and speed along your inheritance. I love my grandson. Like a father. My own Lord Father died suddenly, himself a young man. Lord Grover raised me in his stead. All very touching.

Are you here to speak with your grandsire's voice for House Tully in the Riverlands? While he still lives? That is not our way. Then you're of no use to me. Okay, incredible stuff genuinely. Yeah. Oh, very touching was, like, honestly, like up there for best moments of the season. I love my grandson.

like a father. Let's take people behind the curtains. Yeah. You texted me, you texted Chris, and you asked us if the screenshot of Sir Simon's reaction to this astonishing display should be your new Slack avatar. Where are you on this? Check your Slack. You did it. I did it.

Wonderful stuff. I don't want to check my slack right now because I have just a very high DM total. So I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait until later. Great, great stuff. Great stuff. Damon says, it's no wonder the brackets and the blackwoods went to War Without Leave.

House Tully is a fish with no head. And I thought this was such an interesting, this is fantastic, the Riverlands. They just really never disappoint. But also I just love in Thrones or World of Ice and Fire in general when they use the sigil to like insult or compliment or whatever. I mean. House Foscily, this is rotten apple, you know what I mean? Like something like that.

Just like some sort of fun. Excited to spend some Fosway apple time with you next year. Can't wait. Let's be honest, the house telly sigil is one and the weaker ones. It is. I mean, it does ultimately lead to the blackfish, which is great. Elena had nothing to say about it, right? I miss Elena.

Man. I could have easily done with Aletta just running down every single sigill in house words and giving her commentary. Or even just like names, really anything. Barbara. What was your name again? Barbaro. That's incredible.

So this moment from Damon. I thought this was striking because on the one hand, this actually is like a reasonable observation, right? The Tullies are not in control of their domain. But we spoke throughout season one. We love Rina. We are team black. But we spoke throughout season one about how this failure in diplomacy, in relationship management was a blight on their campaign. And you just feel so keenly here that Damon has not only no aptitude for this, genuinely no interest in it.

Like, how is this going to be an approach that engenders loyalty? And throughout Thrones, like, we always have to think, is it fear? Is it love? Is it both? He's just simply not a politician, nor has he ever been. Right? Like, just think about him, think about him at the wedding banquet. Yes.

Right? When Ray is, is there like, yeah, Joe. Joe Royce comes up, right? And he's just like, you literally killed this woman. You can't spare some diplomacy for House Royce right now. So it's like, this has always been his way. He's a general. He's a fighter.

He's a warrior. Those are all his skills. But diplomacy's not one of them. Unfortunately, it's not necessarily one for Rainier either. So I don't know who we can look to on Team Blas. Jace. Jase is our diplomat, right? Jace did great in the veil and in the north.

Yeah, Jason's art. Well, there are some notes for Jace this episode, and so let us not forget that he won the north of the mail. If I'm picking someone in that family to send, I'm sending Jason. He has some skill. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's right. I agree. Quickly, I have to say, like this, who can remember?

Little line from Damon about asking for clarity on whether it was the Brackens or the Blackwoods. I did find this to be an amusing, like, wink to the audience about, okay, everyone's excited that the world is widening. And we're meeting more people, but like it can get confusing to keep all of the straight. Who can remember? Oh, wow. I thought we might have reached the end if the gargles are earning a mention. And yet, here they are one more time. Their memory lives on, wonderful stuff.

Well, they're not in the opening tapestry, so they don't matter as much as a rat catcher, I guess. Oh, man, geez. This is just something Damon should know. This is important. This matters. Yes. He should have, first of all, he should educate himself on the Riverlands, which he's trying to manage. Secondly, he should already know this because this is very famous West Dorosi history.

So him even asking Sir Simon in the previous week, I could like excuse it because I'm like, it's for the audience that he's asking. Yeah. This is a, it's really funny. And to me, the way I seriously were wound this line like 15 times. Because the way he says it's very 11, very Dr. Hoon to me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I loved it. But, but yeah, I mean, anyway. No age venison for Damon, but do you think he's enjoying any fish fingers and custard? I would not eat anything in that castle to my earlier point. Speaking of things one could eat, I suppose.

Let's talk about the goat, okay? Oh, oh, yeah. Okay. Haunted Sigel watched 2024. This is, I love this. Yeah. This is already, to be very clear, this was already in my nose before. Some people were tweeting about it on Sunday, but this is already in my notes because I missed the bats and I wasn't going to miss anymore.

So last week we got all these bats. Yep. And if you want to talk about a sigil watch, House Lostone and House Went, both of which had possession of Harenhall, have a bat and then many bats on their sigil. Right? The three hounds that we see at the end of the scene who are like, that's House Clegane. That's their sigil. Cammer really lingers on those sweet little pups. I thought that was great.

Like great mood setting, but also like that's House Clegan's sigil. And then the one goat, Fargo Hote, the goat. So these are all people who took possession of Harris. Yeah. And so my palineur is Joe magician was like, this means that Damon is seeing future something, something. I was like, no, these are waking things. So I think these are just Easter eggs for the audience. These don't strike me as like a portent of the future.

Interesting. Because if he saw these moments in his dreams, I would say... Though he sees Lena while awake. So maybe the bleed is... So those dogs are definitely just there. And the bats are definitely. Yeah, and the goat is there. So I think those are just like fun little moments for the audience.

I love it. Also, I mean, the goat, we should say, makes me think of the witch. And the faceless men consider the black goat to be one of the faces of the many-faced god. So that's, is this an Alice Rivers thing? We don't know. We genuinely don't know. There's so much we don't know about Alice Rivers. Keep your eyes peeled for a flayed man or any other.

How's Harren Hall? Howe-Hill Landlord's Sigel that you want to keep an eye out for? I love this. A mockingbird somewhere in some room. Janos Slence severed head. Remember that guy? I do. Found in a puddle of his own making.

One of my favorite sandlines ever. Ever. Ed Fetch me The Block. Joe, we leave Harenhall briefly. We will return to head to another favorite setting of ours.

The docks of Driftmark. I regret to inform you that this week we have neither hot bread nor warm broth. Wow.

I know. I know. It's dismal. We have only a scene that made me want to die inside. Instead, we have a soul shredding. That made me want to, like, crawl into a rock forever and die. Because, okay, like, yeah, this was, this is so intense.

So, like, Renier Reney's meets Alan here, not to be confused with Adam, his brother. And when she, like, cups his face, says it is comely. And then his mother must have been so beautiful gay. So it's sad because, obviously, she's thinking about, like, whoever this was that Corlis cheated with her, you know. Also, like, he looks enough like a young Corliss or whatever. But I was just like, oh, man, like, she's touching his face and it's so awkward and painful. And, like, I don't begrudge her it, but I'm just like, what if you're Allen in that moment?

Like, what do you do? This was so deeply painful for us. All three of them in the scene and for all of us watching at home. Absolute anguish. Anguish. Corlis finds it too anguish-inducing to allow it to continue, and so he sends Alan back to work. Back to a duty.

A lot of barnacles, Joe. It's taken a while. Love her duty. To chip them away. Ian Rhenis, they speak of the unspoken, his bastard son. Steve, can we hear this? He was the sailor who plucked you from your watery grave. Yes.

You did nothing to mention it. I did not think irrelevant. I know who he is, call us. Alan's past is no fault of his. We saved his lord's life. He should be raised up and honored, not hidden beneath the tides. Is this why you came to subject me to an inquisition? No, actually, she came because Baila has summoned her to Dragonstone to help with the Black Council.

With the dizzards. Dragonstone. To go, try to keep everything together for a nears faction. Does it feel nice that we? We can confirm for non-book readers. It's been really tough for us to not be able to talk about this directly, but that Alan and his brother Adam are Corliss's illegitimate sons. Yes. The reason his brother is looped into this, right, is from that line, he owes you brother, he owes us.

Right? Okay. So these brothers born of Corlis. Yes. Yes. That's what we've been spending time with these random guys who we've never met before. Yes. And it seemed to us, we had a similar read on this, that this was not Renice realizing this for the first time. This is something she has known. Yeah. But she is still having to confront it.

Having to speak the unspoke. Yeah. Literally stare, Alan in the face. She didn't have to come up and touch that face, but she did have to confront the fact that they are together. Alan and Corlis have shared this meaningful experience. They're in each other's lives. Corliss is not telling her. about that. What a deeply unmooring circumstance, again, for all parties. You mentioned on Talk to Throids. I thought this was a great shout that this line from Renis encouraging Corlis to raise Alan up was like the anti-Cat stark. Yeah. Yeah. That's a meaningful thing. When we see that scene with Kat and Talisa, in Thrones and Kat says all this horror that's come to my family it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child. She is, of course, putting more of that weight

and responsibility on her shoulders than is warranted. But it's such a memorable moment because it is an acknowledgement that while, of course, in a marriage and a relationship, that would be a painful thing to have to confront. Of course, that was not actually. I just, that's bastard. I can't even open this.

envelope where we need to talk about. We won't get into all of it. But Ned couldn't even just have told Kat. Just a little on the side. On the side. Okay. But it's also always just like an interestingly tough thing about Kat is like we like Kat. We're supportive of her.

She's an absolute asshole to this innocent child. Like what does it mean to treat a child that way and make them feel like they're not, that they don't belong and that they're not a part of the family. And we hear like, you know, all these moments from John where he talks about where he had to sit at a feast or whatever. But we get, I mean, the one that really sticks with me is just. seeing it firsthand when he goes to check on, to kiss Bran. And she's like, I want you to leave. And you can just feel that venom. And so, like, we know that when Renice is saying this, like,

it takes a level of strength that not everybody would be able to muster. So it really is meaningful. I think it's worthwhile thinking about this idea in the context of several conversations we've had with Corliss the season about an heir. Yes. Who's his air? Yes. Absolutely. Speaking of what kind of, also, like, the conversations that happened last season about the three strong boys who we love. But Vaman's like, guess what, they don't fucking look like us. And I don't, you know, and it's like here are two men who look like Corley's, you know. Can we talk for a second here? Because we'll just have so much to cover when we actually get to Rooks for us later.

Let's hit this part here. This conversation in the wake of the episode about how this scene is, like what bearing this scene is having on, certainly not for everybody, but some people's interpretation of a lot of people's, like, because this was Chris's decision. This is Chris's. I've had multiple people hit me up and ask about this. This was Chris's interpretation and a lot of people were asking, like, did this conversation inform Renise's moves at the end of the episode?

And I just do not think so at all. Maybe there's a moment in her death where she can think, you know, but she's always been like, you have family around you, Bella and Raina, like, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. So I don't think it's like, he'll be fine. He has his illegitimate children. I think, I just don't think this has anything to do with her decision to go. Yeah. I think this is just a moment before her death so that we the audience can witness. I agree. You know, because as book readers, we don't have. this. So we don't know if Rani's ever knew or anything like that. And so it's just like she knew she wasn't pleased about it, but she wasn't like cat about it, you know? And they had that moment before she dies. I think that's why it's there not to be like a

motivator for her to do anything. Yeah. I agree completely. I think to be clear, like, people interpreting this, I think the episode allows for that interpretation. So, Yeah, no, I'm not saying it's like... I'm not saying it's a baffling takeaway. Yeah, no, not at all. I think we're in exactly the same place here. So I think, you know, I understand why inside of the context of this episode, this would be the read that some people are having. I think that's a, in an episode that I, like, loved.

I think that's a bummer because... Unfortunately. Do you think the solve is to let Corleys and Rainey's have one more, like, goodbye scene before she goes? My, I think Chris... Or remove this kind of a moment with Alan up earlier in the same thing. season. Like, have it in last, I mean, yeah. And I think the thing then we lose is what presumably, we haven't watched Beyond this,

we don't know, but what presumably will be like this wrenching regret that Corlis carries with him that, you know, they are together at the Black Council in a couple additional sequences, but they don't, as far as we know, at least have any other like, goodbye. Moment together. This is kind of their last real moment, just the two of them. Yeah. And so for him to have to wrestle with that, that like this was their parting. This is how they say goodbye.

I mean, similar to like Allison's going to have to deal with how she spoke to Aigon before he went into battle, right? I have some notes. I do not think that Renice is a character who would say, my husband slept with another woman, so I should just go die now. I have no reason to live. I just don't think that's the show watching or the intent of the story. Move to Dragonstone and spend more time with Bela. Like, I just don't think, you know. They had their quarrels and their separations for it.

And that's the other thing. Like this relationship really feels like one of the great successes of the show so far. You know, they have like, we had the moments since season one where we celebrated their active partnership. And then we had the moments where they celebrated them calling each other out on how that part, that active partnership could feel like a farce or like a tool that you could use to project your own desire. And then the tenderness of the reunion. I just think it's a completely unintentional. Yeah. proximity situation.

I agree. Okay. Speaking of proximity, let's talk about some moon tea, because it's going to be right there when Lyris walks in later. But first, let's talk about how it gets to the room. Or a while. Or while. Bring an Allison some moon tea.

When he knocks on the door, he causes Allison to drop the Stone Dragon. I would call it a sign and or a portent. A sign or a portent? A sign? I just like one of the great things about potting with you is like even when we are not literally together watching something, I feel that you were there with me. And so later when I got it's like plotting? You're plotting without me. I was like, and skiing?

Wonderful stuff. So Allison drops the Stone Dragon that Vesaris dropped in the second episode of the first season that she had repaired for him, touching him so deeply. This guy was really won over by one gift. One act of kindness. She gorilla glued his Lego and he's like... Are the stone masons? You know, they have no plans to pour on now that Egon has destroyed the Lego set. And so who is here to repair it?

Perhaps no one. And Joe, I think that might be the symbolic point. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. So what were they talking about in episode two of season one when Viseris dropped that dragon for the first time they were talking about history? Deliria.

Alicent was asking, do you believe that Westrose can be another Valerian? your grace, and he said, that depends. Whether you speak at the freehold at its height or at its fall, over a thousand dragons and navy large enough to span the seas of the world, the glory of old Valeria will never be seen again until the spin-off.

They have to do an old Valeria show at some point. They have to. I hope so. I love the way this dragon, in addition to the way it functions as a harbinger in this episode, we'll get the egg-on glass wine pitcher with a A dragon on it.

Later, I love the way, too, though, that this felt like a time machine. Like, it ported us back to that memory, and it reminds us of the life that we've watched the characters live either together or at odds with each other. I just thought that was, like, really effective. It's, you know, nothing is quite Robert's feather in terms of how it, like, hits our hearts. But I love the little bits of visual shorthand across the series that, like, take us back in time with a character. I just love that stuff.

Yeah, like the page torn from the book or, you know, there's just like these various tokens and moments of memory. Spinoff coming. Another spinoff icon. Yeah, we should do a list of all the things that are like, let's go to Corliss's Hall. Okay. Yeah. So Orwell comes in and I just have some notes. We have brand new, dragon egg mugs.

Yeah. But we have some notes for the Maisters. Yes. Which is like, can you please brew the moon tea in something less distinctive? we've seen this particular mug a few times. Though I went back and watched when Rainer took her Mooney and shout out Melos because he brought it in like this bejewed glass thing.

It was not. He had a lot of goblets in earthenware because of all of the maggot treatment. You know? Vast offering. Maybe his Moot tea mugs were filled with maggots. His registry was always open. He's like, I guess I'll do this decorative blown glass thing instead. But yeah, the Mooney T mug is so distinct.

I just like, why would you ever, if the aim is discreet? I know. Walking this one mug through the hallway, as they often do, they're like, here it is. I know. Here it is, your grace. The secret tea always in the same shaped vessel, you know. It reminds me of, after the Joffrey Marjorie wedding episode, season four, episode two, one of my friends made a Photoshop of, you know, the great shot of, like, Tyrion lifting the poison

chalice. And it just used to have like changed it in a dim holding a box of rat poison that just said like poison across because it's like such a conspicuous, intentionally so visual, but it feels like that here. Joanna, take me through this scene, this moment, Alison's history with Moon Tea. It's a Moon Tea download. That's a weird thing to say about Moon Tea. Okay, listen. It's crucial to the parting of the ways of Allison and Renier in season one. Yes. Right. Reneira swears on Emma's grave.

Still shocking. Still a wild thing to do. Yeah. That she's a maid. She is pure. And then Laris is like, by the way, Alison, nice flower also. It's thriving despite being out of its element. I saw Melos bring a bejeweled blown glass thing.

And I was like... He brewed himself and everything. Really interesting. Yeah. And Allison's like, oh, fucking mood. tea, you say, and this is when she puts on the green dress and everything goes fucking sideways from there, right? So the moon tea has that significance. And then also, we just spent time with Diana, the Kingslanding employee, the castle employee who Agon assaulted

in season one, and Allison, like, makes her drink moon tea. Yeah. It was interesting because last week it felt like seeing Diana was intended to. to remind us of the horrors that Agon has inflicted, which it also did. But why not both? Yeah. You certainly here to remind us of this as well. And then she's like in Reneira's room, which is where Reneer took the Munti. Like this journey that she's on, we have a listener email that like sort of details

this a little bit more. But this way in which she's just walking the path that Reneira took and the way in which she is like and all the things that she judged and punished Reneera for. and she is experiencing herself. Yeah. That's delicious. So I agree. Incredibly dramatically compelling.

And what is your read then on how Alicent will actively be processing that, right? Because she is now in a circumstance that she once judged the person closest to her in the world for being in. Does this give her, like, newfound understanding, newfound empathy for what Renera went through? What I would really like. Yeah. I mean, the baths are nice, but what I would really like is for Allison take a trip to her and all. Like, it's some ghost therapy because I feel like she's like, okay, who's on our, everyone can use some ghost therapy.

But like, what's the top three people most in need of ghost therapy? I would say Allison. Oh, man. Law and list. Allison, probably Kristen Cole and Amant. That's my, that's my main list. Yeah. Yeah.

Melton's melted right now, so I'm just going to leave him off the list. I don't know if Kristen would be open enough to the experience, whereas I think Allison would be. But that's the point is you're forced open. It's true. Damon's not open to the experience either. But these are just people who are not looking inward. Yeah.

Yeah. Damon does, but in very specific circumstances. Sorry. I don't know. I looked right out of him. I thought you were about to do a quote. I just really give him credit. I see you trying.

Oh, man. Yeah, ghost therapy. So somebody who has a lot of experience with Harenhall because it is his seat, which will come up in another scene in this episode, is Laris. And Laris seeing the Moon Tea is a later sequence. But let's just like hit that now because we're talking about the Moon Tea and we'll have other things to focus on when we get to the Laris Allison conversation later. What do you think he will do with this information, if anything? The fact that he sees this because we have seen him use it before. And Allison, of course, has seen it direct.

I think he's just collecting. I think it's just leverage to have if he needs it. I know, and you know I know. So I have an edge on you. Also, on the Moon Tea front, I suppose we should, I think we had a couple of emails about this about, like, what is exactly, like, what exactly are the properties of Moon Tea? Is this like a plan B or is this sort of, you know, like a more directive sort of like abortion pregnancy termination? She makes Diana take it as a sort of plan B, as a sort of just in case, have some moon tea. Do you think she's, like, actually pregnant here?

Yes. Like, she knows she's pregnant. I agree. I think the way that she puts her hand over her womb. I agree. She's pregnant. She knows she's pregnant and she's taking the moon tea. So just bear that in mind, folks.

I mean, the hot rocks on the abdomen are meant to remind us of that. But, like, bear in mind that then for the rest of this episode, she is. is inactively aborting a child. So when she has no patience for Agon later, which we wish she had approached that differently. But like she is in the midst of this thing. Yes. So.

Yes. So before Allison actually takes the tea, she asks Orwell a question, right? He's about to go. He says, you know, let me know if the woman who this is for, Whoever she may be. Watch her closely. And Allison stops him

before he goes and asks a question that very clearly has been plaguing her since the sept, since this conversation with Renira, where Renera said, you made a mistake. This is about another thing. The Conquer?

The conquer? The conquer? And Allison told her it was too late. She asked her a while, do you believe Vesaris wanted Egon to succeed him. So we should say that Orwell was

in on the conspiracy. Yes. So in memory of our beloved bees, let's just quickly refresh on what he, what Orwell said and did at the Green Council scene in the penultimate episode of season one because bees made his great stand. Yeah. This is seizure.

This is there. This is Jason. Oh, B's wonderful stuff. And Orwell greeted his longtime colleagues, desperate last stand for the truth by saying, mind your tongue, lineman. And then when Alicent, who yes, said Vesaris wanted egg on to be king,

but also was like, you guys have all been plotting in secret to install my son without me, plotting and scheming, scheming and plotting, and said, tried to fend off the part of the plot that hinged on killing Rainira, right? Orwell said, your father is correct, your grace. A living challenger invites battle and bloodshed.

So while his response to Allison in real time is, I could not know, like, what is he going to say? There's no good faith way for him to say to her. Yeah, I definitely think he actually really for real wanted Egon to be king. Nobody thinks so. Or nobody. Is that what you think? think. Is that what you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I had called him out earlier, I think, yeah, this season where I was like, he's the least bad of the council members, and you're like, I guess. And I kind of agree. I mean, you're right. There's no need. I mean, I don't find him as bad as Iron Rod, but, like, he and Thailand are, like, neck and neck for second, right?

But it's a good reminder to non-book readers who have no way of knowing this that Orwell is one of the main sources in fire and blood. And so his like, I could not know, his like, just frankly, sort of like, bland political maneuvering is very interesting when we think about him as a source in fire and blood. Yep, absolutely. What did he see? How would he relay it? You know? Great call.

Great call. Let's go from talking about the Green Council over to some time. With the Black Council. My enemy for life. Your guy. No. Sir Alfred. Absolutely not.

Is on one again. Sweep him out the door. Pela is providing her scouting updates to the council. The tree cover moving by night. This is the direction that Sir Christmas forces are heading in. And, you know, like any sports fan watching at home, every other member standing around the painted table, other than Jason and Rooney's, like, all the dudes, the bros. They've all got notes. The ridicule is not subtle?

Not subtle at all. It is active. I mean, I think this is the gist. The gist is he's sneering at Bela. He's sneering at Rainey's, calls Rainey's out directly, right? I was shocked by that. Who put you in charge, right? Why should you have any more say?

Right? Yeah. Sir Alfred Broom might have a sir in front of his name, but he is not like, I believe a democracy, personally. But that's not the world we're living in here. This guy is no, he is like the least important person in this room and he is the loudest person in this room. And it made me so viscerally mad about all of this. The fact that he even got away with like laughing at Renira last week is insane. I think it's an effective way actually to tell us how few people they have of consequence in the room with them. Like this guy has. This guy

has a voice. And they're just like losing people left and right because Chris and Cole's slicing and dicing his way through the crown lens. But like, yeah. So this fucking guy is in the room. And so my question to you is this is like, I mean, it's obviously gendered. We've got so many e-ails from people who are so mad that he is such a fucking like absolute dick. And then like tightens up when Corley's walks in the room. Yeah. And it's just sort of deferential to Corley's. I believe in democracy. I also. The second I believe. democracy fight of the last like three minutes I also believe

in not beheading people but they should kill him Damon they should kill him David would have taken his head off three separate times

already inside that room he would have been right to in the circumstances in context of this universe he can keep his tongue fuck him you know what I mean

yeah I thought that like the Renice thing the way that he belittled in con-descended, Bela was horrifying. I was shocked by what he said to Reney. Shout out Jace for defending Baila, though.

Shout out of Jase. I gotta tell you. I love Jace. Jase is an asshole in this episode, but I just, I loved it. It was interesting to watch. Like, he's just a, it's a great performance, and I really love Jace. Ray Collette.

Wonderful stuff. The, why should your voice be any louder than ours, princess? It's like, wait, okay. It's in the, it's in the sentence you just said, princess. Yeah. She's a fucking darkarian princess, you dips. She's got a giant dragon.

She's a dragon rider. Yeah. Like she's the lady of one of the great powers in the realm. Okay, so shake my hand, take this guy's head. Yeah. Astonishing. Okay, so, but here's my butt. Show it to me.

I think that Alfred is deplorable and it should be excellent. However, he's, I, this feels almost as bad as like having to acknowledge some of the stuff Kristen gets right. The worst person you know has a point. I think he's right to acknowledge the lack of official, like, cabinet position setting here. The lack of structure. The lack of pressure. Where are the small balls?

Look how much fun. Egon is having, spinning his around. That seems like an effective way to lead. A big part. So Reneer's absence being a problem. It's just too slapdash for Team Black. Reneer's absence being a problem is something we'll come back to. Yeah.

But Damon's absence. Like how Damon leaving to Haren Hall and a huff put the whole org chart in disarray. Because he was the org chart, right? And then he left. And I hate that it's like the guy left and now no one's like paying any attention. Especially because part of the act of lament from Reneera and us was like, why? does Damon think it's his prerogative to run the war council when she's off dealing with other stuff. But there was some semblance of authority of like deference and authority.

For sure. So yeah. Reniro, we have some notes. Get out that hand of the queen pin. We would like to see it pinned on someone soon. Boy. Speaking of Kristen. Oh, okay.

Yes. Mark the time. I'm about to defend Kristen Cole. Oh, my goodness. We got an email from someone. Yeah. And I'm sorry. I don't have it in front of me.

But when we were making fun of Kristen Cole and the hand necklace, they were like, you think Kristen commissioned that? You don't think Agon I super glued my crown to my armor commissioned that? I'm like, you know what? That's probably true. I bet Agon did that. And also we got a bunch of emails for people, but I already knew this, pointing out that Tyrion War is similar to it. We knew that. We made a reference to hands of gold.

like we knew all of that. We were just a bit subtle about it. But we do know that Kristen is not the only character who has worn this chain. It just looks so ridiculous. But I will- Kingsguard armor. I will concede that this was probably Agon's idea. It really seems like something AGOD would do.

I think it is generous of you and our wonderful listeners who send their emails to think that Agon thought about this for a second after he named Kristen Hand. It reflects glory back on him, I think. All right, anyway, I just tried to give, Kristen Cole has some good ideas of this episode. It's true. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's true. It's true. Okay, here, here is a, a, a rich Kristen scene. He's taking Duskendale and he's taken another head. So we cut, this is a great, wonderfully edited episode. And this was one of those moments where we cut from Renice speaking at the Black Council to his hope for the end to this conflict. And we cut right to you. But he's on the beach. Dan's of Duskindale, drenched in blood and corpses, right? So one more moment where that like, absolutely, that it's already too late,

just does feel like an undeniable truth at this point. This was cool for a Song of Ice and Fire fans to see Duskentail. It was like gasping and pointing at him. It looks great. What's happening right now? It was not Duskendale, the defiance of Duskandale. It was just really exciting. It did look great.

It did look great. I, on the one hand, like, wish we were spending more time in these places. And on the other hand, like, love the confidence to know we don't need to linger, actually. Yeah. It's been impressive. Defiance of Descundale, we should say, is something that happened with King Eries. So we can talk about that or not, whether or not anyone considers that a spoiler. But also, when the conquest, like, the fact that he has burnt Duskendale, the fact that when the conquest happened and even Visenia didn't burn Duskendale, she took all their gold.

tough for Descadale but she didn't burn them this is like pretty reprehensible Kristen behaves with a reckless abandon yes certainly we can another good bit of visual

shorthand is we can just see the way that his host has expanded because we can see new sigils right we see the Stokeworth and Rosby sigils mixed in among the shields and Kristen addresses the defeated foe as a bloody

Gawain sits next to him I'll let you I'll let you gush about this this Gawain moment It's just like shell shocked bloody dirty no quip

I mean he sneers a bit later you know I know you went born him my lord like whatever but like but Haranhold

my lord hand is to the west but the way that he's just like oh this isn't a joke anymore I mean he's sort of had that moment when he like

shit himself running away from Moon Dancer in last week's episode, but this is just like such a good, the use of Gwain in the last two episodes has been not just like a source of delight and humor for us, Freddie Fox fans, but also just like as this really important audience. Can we say enthusiasts? Enthusiasts. Wow. Yes. When are we going to get a Gwain High Tower Funko Pop?

I want a Gwain Funko. Yeah, where, I mean, they haven't started selling. We have a rest of shirt. I'll be purchasing on once I do. require Gwain and Alice and Olf and Alarous. Immediately. Immediately. Yeah, he was a night of summer.

This is exactly who Renice was talking about. And he's like, what the fuck is this? War? Even worse? Camping constantly? Terrible. Just wants to be at an in. Just wants to be at an in with a late call time the next morning.

And who can blame him because this is the kind of thing that Kristen is saying, all who bend the knee to the true king egg on will be spared. You can earn back your honor by radio. raising his banner and fighting in his name against the whore of Dragonstone, all who refuse will have their death. So he's not just trying to kill and eliminate Renierrez allies. He's swinging them. He's swelling his ranks by denying her, which is an effective tactic.

One of two persuasive speeches that Kristen Cole will give in this episode. I hate that for me. Yes. But also, this stands in contrast to Damon, who's like, everyone come here to me to Aaron Hall and bend the knee. If Tully won't do it, you know, like maybe one of the brackets of the Blackwood's will, like, etc. But Kristen's like, no, I'm going house to house. Yeah. I'm going to fuck you up.

Yeah. He's not like just knocking and asking. He's, you know, beheading their lords and whatnot. Knocking with a sword. Killing legions. But it is effective. I thought that the horror of Dragonstone, like, obviously he's not going to. going to call her queen. That's what the whole war is about. But horror of

dragonstone was just so brazen, even for Kristen. And they've been using this language throughout. We've commented on it before, but as you said, like, your point is that that has been more behind closed doors, but they constantly call Rainira whore or the C-word or whatever. Yeah, but to do it in front of all these people to make a part of your... Agon is just the usurper. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed the way that Lord Darkland, Sir Stephan's father, as we will hear later. The member of the Kingsguard who went undercover with dressed as a septent.

Knife up the sleeve. Yeah. Great stuff. So he's marched out to the headsman's block and he really calls out Kristen on his lack of honor, the depravity of his pursuit. Did you, a Kristen Hater, feel a little part of you like, all right, he is doing this? the old Ned, the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. He is doing it. Don't look away.

Do we have to be crushingly respect him? Yes, I did because I count this. You're about to run through a bunch of beheadings that we saw on Game of Thrones, but I remember back in the day writing like a long Vanity Fair article about the various beheadings that we saw and how it was, you know, meant to be a barometer of some kind for the moral medal of these people. and the fact that Kristen is like up there with Ned and John is distressing to me, but here we are. Quite. I loved Lord Darklin leaving an impression at the end.

First, the way that he says, King, me, great. It's just like dripping with derision. You're not fit for the white cloak. Well, the white cloak is like the only thing that Kristen likes to talk about. The purity and the fidelity. The only fucking think to my name. This guy ate. Yes.

This is great. This is the definition of an actor who is given like three lines and he's like, I'm going to make a meal for myself. He sure did. Some aged venison. Black cabbage. No red current. No red current. Plenty of peas.

We get to see later the way that Egon really like, which is when he hears this kingmaker moniker used at the Green Council table. So it's interesting to think about how the legend is like something that his own faction is resenting. That is Kristen's like moniker in the book. Yes. Absolutely. that that that that that throne's tradition that you that you mentioned lord darkland joining here I do just love when even when it's the executioner as a character we root for and and believe in like a like a john or a rob less so at that point in the story a theon I love when the person they're about to kill gets that last little shot in because like you are literally being executed your life is over but you have the power

in that moment. And that's an amazing trick to be able to pull off. So I think my favorite has always been Roger to Theon. God's help you, Theon, Greyjoy, and now you are truly lost. It's just so chilling. It's raining. And then it's so messy and Bran is so tiny. And it's just like, that's one of the best

moments. Fabulous for me. Yeah. I never like to give, you know, it's also easier to give Roger credit than like Alice or Thorne or Car Stark. You'll be fighting their battles forever. It's funny. I was rewatching because Danny has one in Marine with Mossadar. And that one I always judged DeNaris for

because she does not swing the sword herself at all. Right. She's Dario do it. And she doesn't look at all. And then the crowd fucking hissed at her. So as low as I am to ever go to Marine. It's like we know what we do in the Shadows episode. I just always want to put Danny in that list with the, like the three. The three boys that Ned Stark raised, John and Theon and Rob, and then also Danny.

And Danny really failed. We should have known some things were happening, just by the way. That all went down. A lot was off in Marine quite a bit. I found the way that Kristen said you should thank me for it to be so disturbing. Yeah. And horrifying. Do you find that the performance is distinct in terms of how Kristen sounds like this episode?

I hadn't noticed that, but I kind of want to go back in. rewatch. Yeah, I feel like he's speaking differently, like, deliberately now that he is the hand and out as this general. Do you think like he's trying to like a fancier, like rounder bowels sort of thing? He's left the boy behind completely. It's the kill the boy.

And let the man be born? Interesting. I think it's interesting to, I think his performance here, like starting last week when he's like no fucking ins, right? And then his performance here where there's just like confidence, determination swagger, swaying the crowd to his, having already swayed Rosby and Stokeworth, all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah. It's so important to set up what happens to him at Rook's Rest. Yes. Right? This is a man who's like, I'm in possession of this world. I am winning. I am winning. I'm winning.

I know how to do this. I didn't know how to sit at the table of the small council. Right. I think one of our listeners says you can't have imposter syndrome if you are an imposter. But like how he felt imposter like an imposter at the table. But this he can do. Absolutely. Until he realizes that this is a dragon war, not a guy in a horseback war.

And so I think this scene is so key for that to just sort of like, here he is, top of the world. Kristen Cole about to have the same look on his face as Gwain Heightower has right now, you know. I love that. Like Otto saying, we must play the board before us. Well, the board's about to change. Kristen knew how to play one board. Well, the board's about to change. The way that the men of House Darkland bend the knee and mass after the execution really reminded me of the aftermath of spoils of war, where like so many of the assembled there are reluctant to bend the knee to Danny even after the victory in battle.

And it's only after Randall. and Rickon was it? Dickon? Hot Dickon. Rickon was like kills me every time. And Dickon are burned and then they all fall to their knee because at a certain point

you just can't deny the truth of the might on the other side. It is time to talk about one of our favorite scenes of the season so far. This wonderful green counsel sequence this war of words

between Amon and Egon. Egan is extremely displeased at the beginning of this scene to learn that Damon has taken Harenhal. And fire and blood, I think this is an area where the text gives us actually some helpful context for how deeply, why this unmoored Egonne so deeply. He is shook. Shook if the fall of Harenhold of Prince Damon

came as a great shock to his grace, Munkin tells us. Until that moment, Egan the second, have believed his half-sister's cause to be hopeless. Haran Hall left his grace feeling vulnerable for the first time. I mean, not your child getting beheaded? Yeah, it is a big difference between this and dovolven. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's only been a couple episodes with this, like, like, Agon's been through. Yeah. This is not going to be easy. Yeah. He wanted that toehold in the Riverland. Boy, he did. And he wanted to send out the dragons, which he's happy to remind everybody of here. He's quite unhappy that they're not listening to him and that they're not taking the kind of dragon war action that he wants, which of course is one of the many moments in the episode that kind of primes us for him setting out on Sunfire later.

Also a inverse of the Black Council. Very much so. He rips into Laris for letting his own seat fall, right? How strong has Harrington all? And Laris, as usual, is just his totally measured... Spin. Focused on the long game. He'll tell Allison later, it's a loss for our greater good.

But what does he say here about what he thinks... I always forget about that one. Thanks, Steve. What he thinks, Haren Hall will do to Damon. Which stuff go? It's like to drive Damon to madness as he attempts to use it. It is beyond his faculties. As Heron Hall saps, Damon's resolve.

And a reminder that in season one, he said, among other things, it is said to be a cursed place that it passes judgment and all who pass beneath its gates. So I find this idea of like what does Laris know and when does he know it? Fascinating. And what experiences maybe he had directly? Yeah. What dreams did he have in a tree made of, you know, where would or otherwise? As Heron Hall saps, Damon's resolve.

So, like, part of it is just the logistics which we talked about, which is just like, Heron Hall is impossible to manage. Yep. It's crumbling. Like, he doesn't have the benefit of Laris's coffers, like the gold or whatever. So it's just sort of like just a logistical nightmare. Yes. Lyrus noting that he controlled a goal, one of the many moments in this episode were like resources,

treasury or mention. Yeah. But Saps' resolve could have that real world explanation of just sort of like, he got too much on his to-do list. But also to go back to that idea of DeNaris in the House of The End Dying, this idea of draining someone magically. Yeah. What does Lairis know? Yeah, drive Damon to madness.

It feels like Lairns knows quite a bit. Chris is not going to Herald. No. Amon's got an update for the room. Yeah. Yeah. And this one couldn't have been an email. It had to be a meeting.

He's not going to Harry H.Q. No, Harry H.Q. He's going to Rook's rest. Rook's rest. What does it? What does he call it? Pathetic price. Thetic price.

Thetic. That's the point. That is the point, of course. It's a trap. Small and is weakly held, but it's Lord. Lord Sutton sits on our nearest council and its position. So, reasonable medium.

Yep. King's landing, Dragonstone. Here we go, right? We're just, Kristen's going like this. Just right up the coast. Moving up the coast. Yeah. Northeast. And just like blocking off landing spots.

And getting closer and closer to just what's due west of Dragonstone if they sought to sail to the mainland. and so cutting off. And then the fucking Celtigars in their crabs. Oh, boy. I love this. When Amon gets up,

goes over the whiteboard, says this thing about the world will not be one with dragons alone, but the dragons flying behind armies of men. And then he's like, no,

but this is my life. It's like a kid with like magnets on the fridge, you know? Tongling Carney and that was so good. Absolutely sensational stuff. I thought that that Amon line was really interesting because it shows that he has a feel for tactics and strategy and like a wisdom that is just distinct, obviously, from his brothers, which I think is true.

But also then when you watch the horror unfold at Rook's Rest, you can't, part of the point, and we'll talk about this more when we get there in terms of like the Kristen lens of waking up to see what is unfolded, it's hard to think that the men matter. Like, they're just kindling for the dragons. That's part of what was so destabilizing about watching it, what made it such an effective scene. Yeah. The Rosby and Stokeworth and Darkland people are like,

oh, we bent the knee for this? It's a tough one. To be ash? It's a tough one. You fall, you go on a march, then you immediately die. It's not ideal. Not an ideal way to spend your last fortnight. Egg on is floored, Joe.

Plosson's games without him. Obviously. Without my authority. Obviously, we're thinking of each other. in plots and schemes, but I'm also just thinking about Allison coming to the Green Council when Vassaris dies. It's like, you have been plotting this without me? Yeah.

You playing this whole thing. You did a coup without me? Without me. And it's interesting, too, because when, you know, obviously the thing Amos is not mentioning here is the Vagar part of it, the trap part of it. But it's interesting to think back to when we saw Amund and Kristen sitting with their map and their course.

coins sketching out this plan initially in the beginning of the season in episode one, because at that point they were like, Allison and Otto aren't going to go for it, but like, what if we pitched it to Agon? And so to think of how in just these few episodes, he was cut out. Well, that was before he lost his shit and, well, before the brothel, but also before he smashed the leg. All of it. Post, blood and cheese.

Been a tough couple episodes. For a guy. A little out of control. Yeah. definitely before the brothel. The brothel changed a lot of things. But also, like, so as we move into this incredible moment, sensational. When Amon, like, Cucks Egan using Valerian. Everybody there watching, like, they're watching a tennis match. It's like a challenger. And you can like, feel. Talent just wants to see good tennis. It's just like an enthusiasm.

It's great tension in the amateur circuit, prepping per the pro tour. I love it. No, but the way you feel like the, feel their respect shift. What's interesting is they're not. It's not, I mean, the Challenger's thing occurred to me too is really funny. But they're not ping ponging. It's like they're all watching Eman and they very slowly turn to Agon in a way that was like both like funny but also chilling and just I did feel bad for Agonne. He sucks, but I felt bad for him. I love this. You and Mitchell will talk to us in that interviews or about that scene and sort of why he thinks it's.

so special, but I just loved this. This is sensational. So obviously the conversation is in High Valerian, but here's the actual common tongue translation of this that we get in the subtitles. What is Amon saying to him? You had more pressing matters to attend to, such as holding court,

choosing your sobriquet, and naming imbecilic lick spittles to our Kingsguard. Our Kingsguard is an insane thing to say. Oh, this astonishing stuff. I loved it. The Saris, of course, used Lick Spittles when he was tearing into Damon. But also this is quite literally true. When you reference season one episode one and Amund and Kristen plotting with the map and the coins, et cetera, egon is literally sprawled on the throne picking his surrogate.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The fact that Amid thinks... Agon is a joke is like not new to us, right? We've been talking about this all season long. We've been talking about it since last season since the penultimate episode when Amon and his murder clock and Kristen and his dumb hat made their way through the city. And Amid just said, here I am trawling the city ever the good soldier.

We usually talk about the last part of this quote, which is the it is I should be like cutting off right to king. But this part feels more relevant here right now. It's all entwined, obviously. In search of a waste role who's never taken half an interest. in his birthright in. It is I, the younger brother, who studies history and philosophy. It is I who trains with the sword who rides the largest dragon in the world. It is I who should be kin.

And then when they find Egonne later, and Egan says, let me go. I have no sure rule, no taste for duty. I'm not suited. Amon says, you'll get no argument from me. And so this just reinforces and crystallizes what we already knew. And we have actually heard in that last example, Amon say this to Egon. Even, like, Egon is confronting it for the first time.

You forgot to do the egg on biting him part of that. I know you love the nibble. You love the nibble. I do. Thanks for articulating the being. When they were younger, we like to talk about this example, too. Like the drift mark, the funeral scene when it's... Oh, he's like, I'd marry Helena.

I'd marry Helena. And we talk about, like, the, what they each see and can respect or adore and Helena is part of what we've focused on a lot. But the first part of that, which is Amin saying it will strengthen the family, keep our Valerian blood pure. Yeah. Like, he is a tethered to their family traditions in a way that Agon just simply is it. You and I both love a blood purist.

God. Do you have a wiser strategy, my king? If so, you should voice it to your counsel. We all the way to your answer. And this is when then. I can have to make a war. So. And he goes, hmm.

That is the logan roy, like, you are not a serious person moment there. It's just like. Sad for you. Absolutely delicious. And then he's like, okay, so my plan then? Yeah. Nobody at the table, we presume, can understand what they are saying. Maybe or while.

Or while. I mean, but they don't need to, which is part of what makes it so effective. They can tell that he has annihilated him. It transcends all language. But also, I'm just saying, if I'm sitting on the small council. You learn the language. I'm learning for one. It's a good note.

Yeah. It's a good note. Now available in dualingo. No freets. Let's talk about the Valerian a little bit more, Joe. Yeah. You've been studying the tapes, as you said. Anything else that you wanted to hit here other than what we talked about earlier today in terms of just like what the history of how the language has been deployed between characters on the show or another show that you might have heard of called Game of Thrones makes you think of.

What was on your mind here? I was thinking you've got some great examples here, but I was thinking the Jace moment really sticks out to me. In season one, when he still had the mullet, it's been. Mere weeks since Sviseras died, but Jace's grown a full head of curls. Oh, man. But when he still has the mullet, Renera walks in. It's that northern air, you know? Yeah.

Just really gets the moisture, just really got the curls popping. Reneira walks in, and he is trying to teach himself a Lerian, and he is, like, stumbling over words, and she is, like, gently sort of correcting him. She's being a very lovely, loving mother in that moment. And he is so mad at himself about it, right? He says a king should honor the tradition of his forbear's. So this idea of it is like, again, that imposter syndrome thing. Like, how Valerian are you?

And for Jace, especially, like everybody is, you're three strong boys. People think you're a bastard. But you can't even ride a dragon, but you can't do this, right? And it's just like, as we've talked about many times last season. I don't, his mom, no matter what, his mother is Targaryen. Anyway. But, yeah, this idea of like being, the realm. The idea of being of how Targaryen are you?

and Valerian being a big part of that, and Amon just going all in. I mean, especially, like, in his, like, how he's modeled himself on Damon. Like, he's just sort of, like, how Targarying, like, hitting his hair with the flat iron every morning, like, all the stuff that he does to make himself look as Targy as possible. Yes.

Whereas, like, you know, Agon's, like, bedhead every day, question mark. You know, I just, I love that. Great wig work. And then, like, that's a great call because then the way they go out into battle almost feels like the opposite of that, where it's a continuation of what we talked about last week with Eggon kind of like cosplay against the conqueror with the armor. Eamon's just like in... Leathers.

An outfit. Yeah. Like just some riding letters. Yeah. You know? Wonderful stuff. I was like thinking back to the... You know, because as I mentioned earlier, Luke is using Valerian to speak to ARAX, which like we will talk about later.

Egan is not using Valerian to speak to Sunfire, which felt really notable, but... Fast to Sunfire. Go! Oh, sweet sunfire. The, like, Amon saying you owe me a debt boy to Luke. Like, he's, he's using Valerian there. I thought, of course, of Dany's. I am DeNaris Stormborn of the House Targaryen.

If the blood of old Valeria, Valerian is my mother tongue, like triumphant moment. Can you do the score? What happens there? But, like, right before the Dragon Fire, like the descending. Great. Yeah. Great stuff. Great moment.

This is what I got feared, Joe. just like looking weak, looking small, looking unworthy. I thought, but I heard of remember that he was as fearsome as any of them. Is that not true? I can't imagine that he's feeling that way now. Wonderful stuff from the Green Council. Not everybody was at the Green Council meeting to witness Egon's shame. Allison wasn't there. And as Allison is assembling like a homemade heating pad, right, some warm.

formed rocks from the fire wrapped up in a in a cloth in a towel delightful Laris pops by

to check on her after the meeting that she missed this is when he sees the moon tea on the table she sees that he sees the moon tea

on the table he knows and she knows he knows listen here's my question to you yeah I've decided to call Laris's little

agents little rats instead of little birds Yes. Right? Yeah, to keep the memory of the season one Laris Rat theory alive. It's always alive in my heart. Yeah.

Shout out of Joe. Great one. Great one. But do you think there's any way in which Orwell could be one of Laris's rats? Not that you need Orwell, right? Because someone could have just clocked that telltale mug. But it's a way that Laris asks her about, I mean, she's strewn history books around the room. So that's definitely a tip off.

But, like, it's the way that he, like, immediately directs the conversation to pick up sort of where she left off with Orwell. That makes you suspicious that Orwell was just like she just asked me this weird question. Maybe. Could be. Could be. I like it. I always like to think about who might be in Laris's keeper confidence. Yeah.

What did she make of the way that Laris broached Kristen with Allison Teer? And you must worry for him, your sworn sword on the march ever exposed to him. to dragons. It is a perilous road. Is this him offering to kill Kristen Cole if she wants him to? I mean, he's kind of always offering to kill people for her. Right. I mean, like, on the one hand, it's part of him, like, ferreting out how much she actually cares about Kristen Cole. What is this thing between you and Kristen Cole? So that's, that's the surface main read for me. Yeah. But peril, who, who knows what can happen out of the road? Who knows what could happen at the cursed keep of her and hall, as I used as my very thin veil for murdering my father and brother in season one.

Spooky haunted castles, dragons on the road, who's to say what might happen? I like that read. I think like every other liar's thing, it's more interesting than when there are multiple things that he's working toward at once. And so, like, yeah, my main read was also he's refusing to allow it to escape her notice that he knows about Kristen. And that gives him power over her yet again. But I like this additional wrinkle that maybe he's like, let me know if you want me to take him off the board. We play the board before us,

but what if the board didn't have Kristen on it? Think about it. If you took him and the rook off the board. Think about it. Look at you with your chess references. He sits down, goes to sit across from her, and asks her,

basically like what's up with you? You haven't been yourself. Are you okay? As we continue to parse what is going, going through Laris's mind. Is there any part of this that struck you as genuine care and concern? Or is this all part of his machinations? My initial instinct to say he's always scheming always and then he doesn't actually...

What was it the Ryan Connell said about like he has no human emotion, I think, or something like that? Yeah, that it was all about power. In our interview with him. But Matthew Needham has said something different in some of his interviews where he's talked about, him like actually caring about Reneer actually like wanting good things for her, which is like really at odds with my read of the character. So it's just like fun for me to think about like, this is how the actor thinks about the character. I don't know that it's necessarily how the writers are thinking about the character, but this is. And all it does is make the character

that much more fascinating for me. Because to your point, there's just like always 90 different agendas rolling altogether. And the idea that there is some shred of authenticity in there is interesting to me. Varus was similar, right? Various was similar, right? Various. Absolutely. I mean, Varus is much more overtly. The realm. Someone must. Right. But he was, but he genuinely did care about Net or did care about these people, did think this person was a good man or this, that, or the other thing. But, like, had other things also on his to-do list. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that aspect of, like, trying to interrogate and even identify what is going through Laris's mind, this next exchange, this next part of the conversation that we're about to hear, we're going to talk about a lot.

We're going to talk about a lot of this from Allison's perspective. But for Laris, this was my single favorite Laris snippet. This part of the scene in particular to date for the reason that you just identified. It was so hard to know in a way that I found exhilarating what exactly was motivating and driving his behavior here. Steve, can we hear this? I did not know you shared your Lord Husband's love for the histories. If not his love, then certainly an abiding interest. the voices of history guided for Saras.

He knew that his wisdom alone could only reach so far. Do you think that is why I changed his mind in the end? No matter how suited he thought Reneira for the crown, the voices of history, as you say, would have told him how the realm would react to her succession. It's impossible to know what stirred his thoughts in those final hours. Do you now doubt his intentions? Reneera supporters will believe what they wish.

And so would Hekons. The war will be fought. Many will die. And the victor will eventually ascend the throne. The significance of Viseras' intentions died with him. It's that. It's the yes, it did. There's like a softness and like a gentle quality to it.

It's not a mustache twirling. Yeah. Totally. There was a level of real, like, sincere human connection there. That is not actually separate. It's entwined here from whatever is driving and motivating his fact-finding mission here. There's a couple things I want to say also in addition to that. Number one, I would listen to Matthew Needham, like, read anything. And they should give him some audiobooks to read, I think. Right?

Also, the score there is just like incredible. It's gorgeous. And the same variation plays in the heat of the battle. This is like a gentle sort of haunting version of it. And the heat of the battle, you get this sort of like hardcore version of it where it's just sort of like pounding. So Ramin Javadi, your main. Incredible. An icon. Incredible stuff.

Incredible stuff. Okay, let's talk about the Allison's part of this. Yeah. So first of all, there's the way that she responds to Laris's question, which is I will not engage with this. I will not bite. I won't take the bait versus her just outright asking for a while. And what that tells us about how she's assessing the like who's a political animal, who's a safe, person to have a certain exchange with element of all the members of their team.

Get Allison a friend in 2024. I would love that. Remember when Allison and Reneer were friends? I do. Heartbreaking stuff. They will certainly move a lifelong mom. Wouldn't you agree? Oh, Miss Harris.

I know that it was about other characters, but I never missed a chance to quote it. So Allison has, as we saw when she and Reneira were young, sitting by their wherewood tree, reading their books, has actually always genuinely been interested in his. She read to the old king, Jay Harris, studied with Renira, passed that page as kind of shorthand, asked for Saris about Valeria, as we talked about earlier. There's like the flip side of that when she chastise Amon for his obsession with the dragons, which showed like a kind of lack of appreciation for their specific history. But in terms of the particulars of what is driving this year, her interest, clearly in this episode

is spawned by her chat with Renira in the sept. Is your main note for Allison the same one that you have for me, which is why don't you put all of your books on Kindle so you can word search the prince that was promised? Yeah. I personally love to hold a book in my hand, and I have a mini a book in my home. But if I'm doing something for research, if I'm calling a text for work, I have that on my Kindle. I know. So you can word service. So that I can find what I need, damn it.

And Allison. You said this to me one time. you were like, why are you flipping pages when you can just type it into the word search bar? If you just type in, Prince, that was promised. Azora high. So, okay, let's talk about this for a minute because it's interesting to think about

how, on the one hand, actually could stumble across in Vassaris's vast collection, especially if she can find, in addition to the book, she already has opened the ones that Agon didn't burn. Tucked away, didn't burn them. It didn't, just had they removed.

burn them. Removed to where I cannot say, but I did not burn them. Simply had them removed. It was crowded in here. And then I believe in the free-flowing space had to get rid of the Legos, had to get rid of the Legos, had to get rid of the books.

I would never. Getting rid of the Legos and the books? No. Can you imagine? So when we think of the Prince that was promised, those are high, the bleeding stars, the salt and smoke, we think of like Melisanger

talking about this across the Asung of Ice and Fire Canon and this idea that like the legend from her perspective treats back 5,000 years, right? And we've talked about this for, for a bazillion pods on end, but the idea that like the specific nature of the prince prophecy would manifest slightly differently across time or across cultures,

but there would be this recognizable through line of this being at its heart the same thing. And so Allison could stumble across something like that, certainly. Sure. The question of if she is ever going to be able to find something that ties this family to this idea, the thing specifically that Renner shared with her about this being, Egon's dream.

I'm just going to need a brazier and a dagger. It's interesting. This is the question. So, as you said a million times. I just noticed, like, progression, the color progression on your nails, which is wonderful. Thank you. Beautiful.

Thanks. I'm sorry, I was just lovely. Really captivated me in real time. No, this idea that, like, ever since they... started with the prophecy conversation, season one, episode one of House of the Dragon, all of us who were at the premiere were like, we're like, what the hell? You and Kim Redfro and, like, other people we were gathering around.

We're like, what does this mean? What does it mean? Yeah. So then we have to like backtrack through all the books and we're like tracing lineages. This has been the big question for book readers. It's like, if this is a word of mouth prophecy with like a few words on a dagger. Right. How did it survive the various.

But how to survive the various like. coups and civil wars and whatever that happens between Targary to Dargarian. When did it get lost? Where did it get lost? Yeah. Ragar, we love this passage and always have from a storm of swords. And it really, it does stand out differently. And I think this question of like, could Alicent actually find something more specific that ties the family to the prophecy in some sort of text.

This is like one bit of evidence that we can say maybe that we have no way of knowing the timing of this. This could have been written down later. As you wish, said Whitebeard, as a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. So this is Barrison talking to Danny about Rhaegar. He was reading so early that men said

Queen Rala must have swallowed some books in a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maisters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baylor the Blessed had been born again, until one day Prince Ragar found something in his scrolls that changed him.

no one knows what it might have been only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yards the knights were donning their steel he walked up to sir willam Derry the master at arms and said I will require sword and armor it seems I must be a warrior so

I think we have no way to interpret that other than he found not just the prophecy but this family tied to the prophecy this idea right and there's like you know Rayla and Aries

his parents, like their marriage also ties to the prophecy that was which prophecy, right, that the prince would come from their line. There are all sorts of things that we could trace. And again, maybe perhaps at some point we will. But this question of like, was this, Ragar, is what do we mean by scroll, right? Who knows which reliable is narrator? Could it be the dagger? Could Ragar have just put the dagger in the fire and seen it?

We don't know the full chain of custody of the dagger. No. Like the ownership gap goes from Amund at the end. And at the end of this episode, too Littlefinger. We don't know anything in between that. Right. It doesn't it look like something Mr. Ruby's on his breastplate, Agar, Regar would wear?

Yes, it does, 100%. But anyway, we don't know. Yeah. And like, it's fun to think just, I actually am still kind of like, the Tower of Joy, full sequence at the end of Winds of Winter is like maybe my favorite moment in the history of television. then you spin forward into season seven and you have like a kind of botched pronunciation

of Ragar as like the annulment reveal which actually makes me like want to curl up and die still to this day but through the context of like this conversation it is an interesting reminder that like there is a lot of crucial history. That was Gilly right?

Gillian Sam. But she's learning how to read. It was more than it was like then immediately went into Sam like just on a bitch fest about like conduct at the Citadel and I'm like this is like one of the most massive moments in the history of the story, and it's going to be like hand-waved until we have a moment later with Sam Pran in the fire.

Trote me crazy. Anyway, not relevant. What matters is that was there. It was like Ineseption's diary. And so like what else at some point could have been actually committed to the record? Is it something that you think Allison will find something? Do you think that she will tell Amund what, or anybody, what Reniro said to her more explicitly at And Eamon will be like, how interesting.

Let me like this on fire. Let me like this dagger on fire and find out. No, that's the big question. Will anyone ever tell, you know, we get the big telling with Jason? We'll talk about that. But, like, who else will be told before all is said and done? Yeah. Yeah.

We don't know. Oh, it's interesting. The more people who know, the harder it becomes to accept that, like, the knowledge could be lost at some point. But, like, you know, maybe everyone heads to Kofar. I was not just literally about to say. What happens at Kofar stays on Kofar. Okay, Joanna, it's the thrill of my life to tell you that we're heading back to Harenthal. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis,

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Because it is time at last Which stuff Which stuff I like to lay into me in your presence Because I actually just feel fortunate That I get to be here with you Oh my God, you're quivering with anticipation I'm so excited

Yeah Damon is about to formally This isn't just a little like An alarming comment in the gods would formerly me Alice Rivers I had a really I've lost my mind moment

Tell me I was watching this rewatching this scene for the millionth time of Alice and Damon in the kitchen. And I was like, has anyone else spoken to or about Alice? That's something I always like to track. Yeah. Because I'm always like, you're not going to fool me with a ghost, you motherfuckers. Anyway.

I've been fooled too many times. Oh, man. No one, like, because, you know, Simon hasn't been like, oh, Alice, that's our, like cool hot witch who lives in our kitchen. Has she told you she's a bar now? She hasn't spoken to anyone else. When she does walk into the room when everyone else is kneeling, there is one guy kneeling who does like sort of look up as she walks and look.

I'm like, okay. So other people see her. I just wanted to make, I need to make sure. And he's like dope fit. Where did you hit the drop? And he's like, you're so hot. And I agree. I love witches.

Oh, man. Okay. We have so much to get to. This is like, obviously, We will, I think, forever refer to this as the Rook's Rest episode. But it is an incredible Damon episode. It's an incredible Damon episode. Which stuff.

Yeah. Damon is once again struggling to sleep in his leaky room. The rain and the dreams alike are... Seep it in. Yeah. Through the stone. It's tough. Tough to get a good night's rest.

And he hears more footsteps by the door. And this time, it seemed to me, though, I admittedly am like losing my hearing and going deaf and also can't see. So that's ideal. sounded like un-h-h- If ears could squint, that's what just happened to hear it. Oh, man, but like an unsheathing of a sword,

like little battle cries. Very ominous, very ominous. And then Damon pursues this blonde form, silvery blonde form, the strap of an eye patch, visible on the back of this head. And so we're like, cool. he's pursuing Amon and then Amon turns around and Luke slices off the face mascavator's helmet

and it's his own face looking at him from the cave in Dagaba. It's Damon's face when he turns. And this was delightful. It was great. One of our favorite things talking about the show is this talking about Amos and Damon. We have them here with us now quote as foils and this was just a deline. delicious visual rendering of that idea and also how they're on each other's minds. Like, it's not just for us.

They are obsessed with each other. I cannot wait for people to hear what you and Mitchell has to say about how the very specific way in which he keeps Damon on his mind. Great stuff. As he performs his character. Great stuff. We did get me about from our listener, Liz. I don't have time to talk about this because I have so much which stuff to get to. But Liz, we will do a little bit more of a conversation for non-book readers about the foil aspect between Damon and Amid.

Because I feel like we keep saying it. but they've had very little interaction and so maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more in a non-spiler way in a future episode but I love it I saw your email, we'll get to it. I love it. I would like to just quickly take a moment. Yeah.

To note, one of the most important things that's ever happened in the history of television. Never before and never since. Which is that on this week's house that dragons built, Hottie makeup designer Amanda Knight said the following of Gil Rankin.

Yeah, Alice. We embraced her purpose. paleness. And then it's now the House of our House words. House of our, colon, embrace the paleness. This was just great stuff. Joanna, I would like to ask you, Damon arrives. He wanders into the kitchen.

Alice has a just frankly iconic greeting for him. It's a touch late to be stalking about a strange castle putting its people to the sword. You, I'm called Alice. Strong Rivers. A bastard wants you get to know me. I'll find I'm not. So bad. So good.

By God, I have no notes. Please take us to Fitwatch Corner for a minute here. So I don't want non-book readers to Google Image Search fan art of Alice Reverse because I feel like there might be spoilers there in. So I would just not do that. So you're just going to have to believe me when I say that when you do that, what you will largely get is drawings that look like essentially the actress Eva Green in like the slinkiest. It's one of my old timers.

Oh, I mean. One of my all-time rights. She's one of the hottest people to ever have lived. Very special. But, like, in, like, the slinkiest gown imaginable. And, like, usually this fan art of Alice River, she'll be, like, contorted around someone or whatever. I love that she's like, oh, I'm a fucking kitchen witch. I've got an apron on.

I still find Gail Rankin, like, incredibly alluring and hot. But I love that, like, it's wrapped up in this, like, practicality of this domesticity that she's doing here. Yeah. She's wearing this apron that's got wearwood leaves. embroidered on it. The last time we saw that on a Game of Thrones property was Sansa Stark's

Queen of the North gown, Cornetian gown. Gorgeous. Where Michelle Clapton, the costume designer, put like a million little Easter eggs. And one of them was this is like gorgeous like fall of embroidered wearwood leaves on the queen of the north Sansa Stark. So the

wherewood leaves are here. That's probably not the only place they are in this kitchen, but they are definitely here on the apron. And something I love a friend of the pot of Shea on the History of Westrose podcast talking about this, this idea that like Allison as, sorry, Alice as a witch, if you prefer, a bastard. Yes. A woman conducting a lot of these conversations in kitchens and random courtyards behind closed doors is exactly the kind of person to confound the historical sources in fire and blood. You read the great, you know, description of how she is put into the book in this, like, we don't know what she is. Who can say about the mind of a dragon, who can say what the hell Ellis Rivers was?

We don't know. She could have been a million different things. But, like, that idea that the show is constantly challenging of, like, who writes the histories, who dictates the histories and, like, perhaps not even Mushroom, because as far as I know, Mushroom never went to hair and all. Mushroom was not there. knows how to handle someone like Alice Rivers. I love it. That's such a great call. And then that kind of like compounding that with the idea that Damon would never want anyone to know.

Oh, he's telling no one. Experience this. And yeah, which is never make the pages of pictures. So I love that. I love that. Alice, because Damon, you know, is curious about like, oh. So you're a maister? What happened?

Joe to the prayer. Maester. Did he, by chance, flee in the night? Do you flee in the night? or has he been turned into goop? Never settle then. It's a red flag for me. I got dead.

So we are just, it's the thrill of our lives to say that Alice listens to House of R and knows that we never miss a chance to talk about either curses or wearwoods, and she is happy to oblige. Steve's lore. Can we hear this? How are you settling in? I've come to know the face of tortured rest well enough. Sleep can be thin.

in this place. What would you know of my sleep? Iron Hall's when Kirstens's its first stone was laid. Black had and fell the grove of Weirwood trees that grew on these lands. Heart trees imbued with the spirits of those who lived long before he came. As said, their whispers can still be heard sometimes.

I'm made by its town. The very bed you sleep in was made from such a heart tree. Have you experienced anything of note? You are a strange kind of woman. I'm no woman at all. I'm a barn owl. Cursed to live in human form. Sensational stuff.

On the accent corner beat real quickly. Yeah. Yes, yes. A lot of people, she only had one line last season, right? You're going to die here. And a lot of people in this place, sorry. And a lot of people, I think because of her vocal fry, I thought she sounded like American, but she is quite clearly Scottish.

This is Gil Rankin's, like, natural Scots accent. But what I love is that we haven't had like a ton of Scottish accents on either Game with Thrones or House of the Dragon. Roy McCann as The Hound is like slightly Scottish. My guy Beesbury, Bill Patterson is Scottish. But not many others like overall. So she just sounds profoundly different than most of the people we've met in Westrose, which I love. Fantastic stuff. What an incredible scene. This is, you know.

You expedienced anything? Yeah. Of note. We, you know, we just established podcast now what our new house motto is. But I'd like to say that from here on, I've come to know in the face of tortured rest. Well, now, we'll be our greeting to each other. I mean, the beginning of every recording. I'm getting a sticker made for your laptop. It's like, yeah, I bet you have.

We'll have to sit across and look at me three times a week. You're beautiful. It's a kind lie, and I appreciate you. I cherish you. You're the best. So this made me think of a couple things, and it made you think of 700 and so hot. Which I love.

Japan. We're so close to which stuff go. I'll just very quickly hit why it made me think of brand, and then I want to hear all of the amazing things that it made you think of. And let me think of two things with Brand. One was one of my favorite, and it just kind of like shreds my soul on rewatches, is that conversation between Lewin and Brand, about like magic being gone from the world, right? Long forgotten.

Every Lewin scene is perfect. Heaven. Yeah. And it's like part of what makes it so painful is, you know, Bran is the like, maybe we do, like live in the blue eye of a giant Macumber kid. and has that open mind and heart in lieu and a character who we have such warmth for and love for and adoration for and respect for, like a man of letters

and a man of reason and a man who looks at what he sees with his eyes is like, magic is gone. And these things aren't possible. Some real man-science, man-of-faith. Because you're a man of science, and I'm a man of faith. The other thing I made me think of was Brandon Osha.

And this is, of course, a scene in the show as well, I'll read the passage from the book from A Game of Thrones by their where word. at Winterfell. Bran listened. It's only the wind, he said after a moment uncertain. Leaves are rustling.

Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods? She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Micken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles with a heavy chain between them. She could walk so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run or climb or mount a horse. They see you, boy.

They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back. what are they saying? They're sad. Your Lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the South. The wherewoods there were all cut down thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?

Brand had not thought of that. It frightened him. I just love that. And again, because it shows us what Brand is like ready and willing to receive. But it made me think of like the conversation, an email you read last week, and then the conversation we had about Heron, the wherewood's grip on the bones of Aranong. And the history and the tradition and culture and myth and legend and magic and belief

that permeates a place, the realm, a person, an idea, like, through those roots. It's just one of my favorite things about the world that George built. I love it. We shuff go! I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with Alice, with Harenhall. Harenhall, we should say, for book readers who don't know, or for non-book readers who don't know, sits right next to a body of water called the gods' eye, and in the center of the gods' eye is a place called the Isle of Faces. My favorite. The Isle of Faces is a mysterious island that people cannot get to. How tantalizing.

Okay. There's a few things. When you mention Brand of the Warewood Tree, we have to mention the fact that, like, Bran... can like almost speak through the whereward trees. In Thrones we see like young Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy, like turn around and be like, what's that on the wind, right? There's this Jojin read passage that like the beginning of which has wound up on a million different bookmarks for sure. Yes. But the whole passage is this. Jojin says a reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.

Should this be our tat? Are we going to be just covered? Smeared in tattoos. Smattering? A reader lives A thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.

Perfect. The singers of the forest had no books, no ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead, they had the trees

and the wherewoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs

and spells their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Masons will tell you that the where woods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die, they become part of that godhood.

So this idea of the wherewoods as the keepers of the history of Westeros. These almost like defenders, guardians of Westeros, the living history. Do you think the first of, fact that the bed Damon Targaryen is sleeping in

is made of haunted wherewood might be the reason, as you mentioned last week, Lionel Strong opted not to sleep in it. Could be. Could be. As soon as Alice is like that bed, you know, need of weird, I would move.

Yeah. Immediately. Yeah. It does make the tradeoff of the smaller quarters. Yeah, probably worth it if you're just in like a... Get out of the haunted bed. Oh, God. Like a... Deathbed, the bed that eats. Any other material. Get out of it, okay? But most of all, I'm thinking about Jamie Lannister's

Wherewood Stump Dream, which happened outside of Harenhall. This is not on the show. This is in the books. Because in the show, if you had to watch this in the show, you'd be like, why is he sleeping on a stump? That looks uncomfortable. But listen, Jamie Lannister in the book takes a nap on the stump of a wherewood tree outside of Harenhall.

I was always sad this didn't make it into the show, because when he goes back to rescue Brianne from the bear pit, he says, I dreamed of you, and I want to cry. She's like, why'd you come back? And he's like, I dreamed of you. So this is the nature of this wherewood stump dream. This idea of his proximity to the wherewood stump and the kind of dream that it gave him is so fascinating to me.

This dreaming of someone you want to have admire you. I'm going to cry. Jamie dreams of his Kingsguard brothers and of Brian. This dream is also extremely difficult. Dagobaugh coded because he and Breanna are in a cave with flaming swords. They're basically have lightsabers in a cave. This is what Jamie's dream is, right? One part, this comes before the longer passage.

I remember you wrote an incredible piece about this. I mean, it just matters so much. I remember this piece. But in Jamie's dream, there's a sword. It was at his feet. Jamie groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. I mean, it's just practical that Damo would constantly reach for his sword and all of this,

but the fact, like, that connection of like he's, like, where's Dark Sister? As soon as he, like, enters one of these dreams, where's Dark Sister? Nothing can hurt me as long as I have a sword. Okay. And the identity, like, I was that. I was that hand. Oh, God. Okay.

Here's the dream. Oswell went and John Derry. Lou and Martel, a Prince of Dorn, the White Bull, Gerald Hightower. Sir Arthur Dane sort of the morning, and beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and Rifle Air to the Iron Throne. Crowned in mist and grief. George! Fuck! Okay.

This dream that Jimmy has about his fallen brothers of the Kingsguard is about his guilt and grief at the loss of them, but also his guilt and grief not just for killing air. he's the mad king, but for failing to protect Ragar's wife, Elyne Martel, you might have heard of her, and their children, right? Quote, he was going to burn the city, Jamie said, to leave Robert only ashes. He was your king, said Derry. You swore to keep him safe, said Wendt. And the children, them as well, said Prince Lewin. Prince Ragar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

I left my wife and children in your hands. I never thought he'd hurt them, Jamie's sword burning less brightly now. I was with the king, killing the king, said Arthur. Cutting his throat, said Prince Lewin. The king you had swore to die for, said the white bull. And after, you know, after this happens, he goes back to Heron Hall to rescue Brian. Oh, my God. So this idea of like these people, his brother's judging him, right?

his brother's calling him up for being a king killer, then he does this great heroic thing afterwards. In his dream, Brann is by himself, naked with a flaming sword, George. But he goes back and he rescues her from the bear pit because he's like, I want to reclaim my heroic status. But the idea of like cutting off the head and the closeness of that dream with Damon's dream just like really struck me. Oh, man. Incredible. So that's Jamie's dream.

Beautiful. Just incredible. Other dreams, I don't know. You already like, we talked about the house of the undying plenty. We don't need to go into. But Danny does have a dream that she was Rhaegar at the Trident, finding others. John has a guilt dream from a dance with dragon of all the people who died to get him there. Quote, as the dead men reached the top of the wall, he sent them down to die again.

He slew a gray beard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with things. a girl with thick red hair. Too late, he recognized e grit. She was gone as quick as she had appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. John stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donald Noy and gut a deaf dick followed.

Corrin half-hand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to stanch the flow of blood from his neck. Quote, I am the Lord of Winterfeld, John screamed. It was raw before him now. His hair wet with melting snow. Long claw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand sees John rough.

Okay. Dreams of beheading Rob? Oh my God. And that one hits you so hard when you get to it because, like, John's dreams feel so pretentious throughout the text. He's always dreaming of the winterfall cribs. You are not a star. You don't belong. So you get to that.

It's like. But this idea, like, the idea of John beheading Rob, you should have gotten Richard Madden. They should have done this. They should have done so many more dreams in Game of Thrones. Here we are now. I'm enjoying this. I'm thrilled. But John cutting Rob's head off and Damon cutting young Reneer's head off and this idea of like and also like seeing young to Harris, you know, little baseball head.

Like, you know, who else are we going to see is a big question we have? It's really fascinating. I need Viseris. If it's not Vassaris, we riot. If Patty didn't slap the old wig back on, I'm going to be really upset. Okay. Later in Fire and Blood, there's an allusion to waking the power in the stones of Harren Hall. And there's this question of like, was Heron the Black a sorcerer?

Are there spells beyond the blood and the mortar woven into the walls there? And there's this quote, when Egret and John climbed the wall. Yeah. And John says, it's made of ice. And Egret says, you know nothing. You know nothing. John Snow. This wall is made of blood.

right and that's like there's the way to interpret it of like all the people who died to make this wall or all the others who died to achieve that climb or whatever but this idea and she talks about how like the wall tried to throw her off of it you know what I mean it's this like living breathing we talked last week about this idea of like hinges in the world the wall and heron hall and like these in spelled structures in Westeros um the barn owl line is so fun great stuff as a joke but we're we'd be surprised as she was literally a skin changer. Not in the slightest.

In, we talked about this a bit where we didn't analyze it in the non-spoilers section because they're full of spoilers. But Helena has all these drawings in her room and in her notebooks. Right. And there's a drawing of Harren Hall with an owl next to it. Helena, you wacky little bug girl, I love you. Everything you do is a spoiler. It's amazing.

There are so many theories about Alice Rivers. I love this idea that she's like, is she a child of the forest? I like this idea that like, because there's all these theories about like other characters we haven't met in fire and blood. Like are they children of the forest sort of like in disguise as like humans or something like that? Are they operating as agents of the wearwood network of the green men on the Isle of Faces? Like what's going on there? And because we are in the year of the witch. We have to, of course, talk about the coolest baddest witch of all time, which is Morgan LaFay.

I thought you're going to say Agatha. Agatha is also here. September 18th, we have a date. 2024. Year the witch. Two days after my birthday, we'll be with Agatha. Dune. Just witchy stuff all over the place.

Ackolyte. Akelet. Morgan. Morgan. My sister's name is Morgan, but that's not who we're here to talk about. Morgan Lefei or Nimue is another sort of evocative. of Arthurian legend figure. But Morgan Le Fay, who was Arthur's sister, perhaps lover, perhaps tormentor, depending on

which like history you read or whatever. But this idea of her and the Isle of Avalon, similar to the Isle of Faces, is Isle that can't get to. We talked about Avalon. Yeah. Was it our magical swords trope course, I want to say? I think so. Yeah.

I believe it was. Avalon. It was a fun one. Yeah, it was really was. I was also thinking a lot of the John Keyes poem. the Belle Dame Saint-Mrasse, the beautiful one without mercy, this idea of a fairy queen who entraps men

and then just like leaves them there to rot in the fairy grotto as she sort of like drains them of their life force and stuff like that. Like that, all of that is also in the mix here with Ellis Rivers. Which stuff rules. Incredible. There's this quote about the idea, the Isle of Faces is as a location is so much. mysterious to even book readers.

There's this great theory that is the Isle of Faces where Ragar and Leanna went to get married. I love that idea. We have no proof of way or another because George hasn't written it yet. But could they have gone there to get married? I look forward to finding out the

details of this in bookland one day. Yeah, in 2037. Sam and Gilly casually discovered in acceptance diary. The also I want to talk about everyone's favorite TV character, much more interesting character in the book, Quaith.

Quayth who shows up in... Love, like one of my favorites. Season two of Game of Thrones and then disappears. Everyone's like, what was up with the lady with the mask? Yeah. Who was telling Dineris that she had to go east, to go west, etc., etc. But this, like, you will die in this place is real Quayth vibes. Quayth, who would love to send dreams,

who love to do all sorts of spooky stuff in the book to Diner. The Ghost of High Heart, another incredible book figure who does not make it into the show in A Song of Ice and Fire gets her prophecies from the wherewood trees. And then there's the Night Fort. The Night Forrest Yards have become a small forest, a twisted wherewood grows through a hole in the kitchen, and there are also trees growing in the stables.

The ground level gate through the wall is sealed with frozen stone and rubble. This idea of a place where the where the wherewith have taken over, like, the yearning tendrils of a mushroom network, right? The wherewood net is what we like to refer to it. But the idea that, like, all the werewoods are connected somehow under ground. I love it. Someone and something has to keep the Rat King's Children company, you know? There you go.

Incredible stuff. I have a little bit more, but that's a lot of which stuff. Back to you in the studio. Back to you in the studio, Mallory Rubin. This is a special time to be fans of this world and like fans of a fantasy story and have all of this. I'm thrilled. Thinking about Morgana, thinking about witches and how they're written about, thinking about witches and their influence over kingdoms and kings and are the motivations nefarious or are they defensive of something? Are they more protective of like a pagan religion?

like what are we doing here? Well, this next bit of the scene between Alice and Damon, we have some fodder for kind of asking that question about her, right? What is her agenda here? Like, what is she after? What is she trying to do? Because she mentions, basically she says scenes from a marriage to David, is what happens here.

She's like, context clues. You're taking a solification and you have. I haven't sent any postcards. Like, were you fighting with your wife? Yeah. Quarterly? With your wife. The, uh, we, and I was, I was interested in like, again, because we have seen Damon in

in real life and in dreams just cut heads off when he's not like in the way of conversations going, even though he does say, you know, tells her not to try me with your insolence, which he does kind of just stand there and like let her say all of this stuff to him. Because he's like already stoned. Yeah. It's a hard thing I imagine to give obeisance, love to give obeisance, to one who replaced you. as air and a woman too. A guttled child.

A girl child you bounced on your name. I don't know why, but girl child sent me. Like, it's just... Like, guttled child. Incredible. So, yeah, what is your... I want to talk about what... She then gives Damon this mixture, and he...

Drakes it. Foundingly and astonishingly consumes it, which I just simply would not do if I thought I were conversing with the witch and having these very concerning. You're talking about this on Aguilite. Like, yeah. Persephone, don't eat that pomegranate. This was wild that Damon consumed this. So what do you think is in the mixture?

What impact is it? We see the impact that it's having on Damon. How, why? What is in there maybe that he is ingesting? And why is Alice giving it to him? What is your read on what we are watching and what sort of... Whatever it is, I mean, whatever it is, it is, it is not poison because she licks it off her own hands. So whatever it is...

Maybe she's built up a tolerance. To I okay powder? Incredible. My built-up a tolerance reference is always wag's talking about body sushi and billions. Built-up tolerance.

I always go Princess Brian. I apologize. Anyway. Oh, God. She's mixing it when he walks into the kitchen. She's already at the border and pebble with this red goop,

this red fibrous goop that has to be macerated where it leaves. There's no way which this isn't. Also where all the red currents went for some. some color and taste?

Yeah, for sweetness, red current, wherewood leaves, and perhaps the blood of the former maister. Okay. Because there's this thing from Adiaus with Dragons that non-book readers don't know about, but we have to reference here. Which is referred to as Jojin paste.

It's this goop that the children of the forest give to Bran after Jojin's already dead. He dies. The children of the forest give Bran some goop. this is the passage. Something about the look of it made Brand feel ill. Delicious. The red veins were only wherewood sap, he supposed,

but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. Will this make me a green sear? Your blood makes you a green sear, said Lord Brendan. This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees. Brandon did not want to be married to a tree, but who else would wed a broken brand, so literal, but who else would wet

a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees, a green sear. And a lot of people think that perhaps along with some wherewood sap they might have mixed in some essence of Jojin into the goop

that they feed brand. This is a very common theory, the Jojan paste. So like... Essence of Jojin is quite a turn of frisk, my goodness. Is it just wherewood leaves? Is it where wood leaves plus, you know, some actual blood, like, what are we doing here? The reason the wherewood leaves are red is this idea that, like, the trees have been fed blood. Yes. On the, like, horror front, I do want to, like, remind people that, like, as much as this is,

like, going above and beyond the prompt that's in fire and blood in terms of, like, witchy shit, and I love it. Just a reminder that Barrett Dundarian, a fire white. Yeah. And ladies, Stoneheart, a zombie, exist in the books. So, like, George has put horror in his, you know, his books since the beginning. Yes. But, like, what is Alice's aim with Damon is the question here? Yeah, what's your read on this?

I first want to, I really want Simon Strong to talk about her, because this is what made me go back and, like, wonder, what's her relationship with the Strongs? Like, is she here as some sort of, like, vengeful, you know, Lorax. This is for all the trees you cut down sort of. Spirit, not a spirit, an actual person, but like a figure in the inherent hall, dooming and cursing everyone who ever tries to inhabit it. Maybe, but she seems to have a fairly, pleasant, perhaps. Seems like a great hang. Interaction, like, religion was, she doesn't seem invested in, like, ousting Simon Strong. Right. So what's the accord there? What's the detond?

Mm-hmm. Right? Is she just like the Strongs are a pretty benign, house other than Laris, but he's back at Kings Landing, so who cares? Is she trying to, is this part of a larger conspiracy to kill off the dragons? There's this really fun conspiracy theory in a song of ice and fire about the maesters, where the maesters all trying to kill off the dragons because they consider them an abomination, you know, etc. Last thing I want to say on witch front in the year of the witch. Yeah. Dude. Yes. Yes. The Benad Jeserate. The breeding program.

This idea of these forces, these women, these spooky-uky women, working for thousands of years, Lady Jessica, to breed the Quitsat Hatter-Rex. So, like, if they're trying to make the prince who was promised and, like, orchestrating things one way or another to make sure that Ragar, meets Liana, among many other things,

trimming and pruning the Targaryen family tree in one way or another, to get to John and Danny. I love it. Could be fun. I love it. I love it. Which stuff. Which stuff?

Oh, man. I can't wait for more. On the Simon front, I am wondering, like, is Simon clocking what's going, he's clocking what's going on with Damon? Like, he's observing him in the next scene with Will & Blackwoodism. Or he's, like, mildly drooling. Well, like, but I don't know if you know. But does he understand that it's the influence of this place?

But he also doesn't know Damon well enough. Like, Damon could just be like a milk of the poppy addicts. Like, who knows? That's why I'm curious, like, could he just assume that this was how Damon conducted himself? Like, Lordling behavior. Yeah. Or is he like, yeah, I've seen this before, you know, in this cursed place. Yeah.

I'd love to hear more. Sir Simon. Hobbits and Dragons at DMO.com. You have some of input. Oh, man. So, that was incredible. Thank you for that. Sensation. Flawless.

I mean, I just... We have embraced our paleness. I just like theories and witches. My last. Same. Same. And where it's. We cut to Damon. Yeah.

Drolling, gently. Just off his fucking head in this scene with our beloved Willem Blackwood. Our little buddy from Andor back years later, mangrown, no longer vying for Rainer's hand, though he's happy to mention that here, no longer just casually. He's like, for the casual audiences at home. I was the kid in season one. I sat with the Bracken guy at Storm's End. No, now he's more methodically plotting and scheming for the demise of House Bracken.

So this is just great stuff in every respect. Demon says, well met. What made I do for you? And Willem says it was you who summoned me, Chris. Like, I love when you feel such intense visceral secondhand embarrassment for someone who you're watching on TV or, like, reading about, like, I was just cringing watching Damon, but I loved it. It didn't make me wonder, like, how much time Damon is missing. Yeah. Well, it's just been mere weeks since Sarah's died.

And only a fortnight since Kristen Cole began his march. So those are the BBI time stamps I can give you. You know, I love a BBI time stamp. Yeah. Willem is, we talked about most of this already. This is like when, you know, he mentions that Vernera had the true blood of the dragon. And Damon is basically like, would you march with me without leave of your lord, right? The Tullies aren't going to sign off.

Are you with me? And Willam starts to answer those questions. Damon does not hear what he's saying at first because he starts. to hallucinate at this table in the middle of a conversation that his second wife, Lena, is the cup bearer at the table. Everyone is looking at him like, what is happening to you right now?

And Shirley Damon is also wondering, what is happening to me right now? I am like a little bit worried because in the, there are many the Damon glimpses from the trailers for the entire seasons that we haven't seen yet. And the trailer for episode five. Yeah, how so bad? We're finally going to get the Housselburn moment, and he's going to go on crack season.

I just don't think Damon should. Don't wear wooden drive. Yeah, but Jojin Pace didn't fly. It seems like a bad idea. All hopped up on Joachin Pace. The ghost at the table inspired, this is the last element of which corner, and it gets to coincide beautifully with Shakespeare Corner. Here we are. The bar is always welcome.

Always welcome. Always. Sally, our listener Sally, who is an English teacher, love English teachers, wrote in a little Shakespeare Mackers corner, some Macbeth here. And like Gil Rankin is Scottish, which just makes this all feel much more Macbethy than ever before. Haunted Castles, witches, prophecies. Great. Macbeth stuff. So to recap, the witches in Macbeth, spur Macbeth to realize his ambition to be a king and a prophecy that he allows to destroy him. And that sort of seems like part, you know, like, is it hard to do obeisance? Do a girl child?

You bounce on your knee? Girl child? It reminds me of like, you know, rain knees saying to Allison, like, having to ever imagine yourself in the Iron Throne. Yeah, absolutely. You know, what thoughts do you have here? The knocking at the doors that, like, sort of keep announcing the dream for Damon, Sally draws a connection to the porter scene in Macbeth where the knocking, the constant,

irritating knocking is this inevitable, unstoppable, guilt and consequences coming for Macbeth. And then the haunting of characters by the visions or ghosts or sounds of those he has killed either by his own hand or through the hands of the others, the ghost of Banquo, the vision of Prince Jaharis having his head sewn back on the beating of the heart beneath the floor.

The dinner scene at Heron Hall is disturbed by Damon's disturbed mind, makes it similar to the scene of Macbeth's feast at Schoen, which is interrupted by Banquo's ghost. So Banquo's ghosts this iconic literary device important thing, but this idea that, like, it's very similar. We're my best like, ah. And it's like, what are you looking at? Quartz.

It's my friend. Do I get murdered? Okay. Oh, my God. Last not least Sally writes. Overall, I'm not exactly sure what the insistence of the supernatural signifies, except that in Damon's case, he has been, he is repeatedly denied and scorn the presence of the mysterious and the intangelo.

the possibility of portents, signs, and a world beyond this one of flesh and blood. He has done so to his own detriment as the ghost of his past have come knocking not to be denied entrance by any rational means. Haran Hall seems to represent the haunted chamber of Damon's mind, much like castles, houses, and rooms due for Macbeth and characters and Edgar Allan Poe's story, which is why the beating of the heartbeat. The floor report's references earlier. Love this from Sally. It's sensational. Incredible. Thus endeth which corner.

For now. For now. For now. Today next week. All right. You want to talk about a stupid blockade. We can keep this next one quick

because we have some meaty scenes to still hit. But we do briefly go back to the Green Council and just spinning the small ball stewing in his sense of inadequacy. And Laris is reporting that the Crownland lords are grousing. I love how often we're hearing

the word grousing. The dragons are eating too much of our livestock Orwell says, like, city's starting to feel the pinch from the blockade. And Ironrod is like, well, we can just, they can either keep shipping it or we can just take all their holdings to which Thailand says, great idea, we're out of corn.

So in the book, we know like Thailand splits the treasury right into four. Yeah. It just feels like there are a lot of mentions in this episode about money. The resources. And this has been a trend throughout the season. We think of our beloved Hugh and his beautiful wife and their ailing child and how hard it was

to get the chicken for that pot. That soup, as I still say, it looked wonderful. I know we had to sprinkle on some added seasoning, but the seasoning

was there. The seasoning was at hand. And then Ironrod basically it's like, not all is grim and bleak right now. Here's some good news. The Kingmaker,

they're calling him. And with Amend and DeVaker, also at the ready, we're a formidable opponent and Agon just storms out of the room as he hears this, says that they're all boring him. And, you know,

there's that moment in the earlier, the High Valerian, sequence where we talked about this, like, the way that Laris in particular is looking at Amund there and is like, you have my attention. It's like the opposite here, the way he looks at Egon. He's like, you're not worth my time. Yeah. Right. Again, like, you are not a serious person. This is just so sad for Egon. Pathetic stuff from him here. But then we head into a scene where I go from feeling like, oh boy, this is how you're behaving into like, I feel an incredible amount of pity for you.

Let's talk about this scene between Alicent and Agon. Yeah. Agon storms right into his chambers. Mom's already there. She's there. Now, if Agon or my son,

I would not go through his drawers, I'm just going to say it. I would not. Agon, who you watched, you walked in on, like, wanking it? Doing the full Roman Roy out of his bedroom window. I would no longer enter his chambers

without knocking, and I certainly would not be going through his cabinet. She is looking for Viseras's books. God, knows what else she stumbled upon. We have a lot of, like, serious stuff to talk to you, but it wouldn't be us if we didn't spend one moment on the pussypossy before that because the moment.

Leo Eddie and Marty. Holy fuck. You know, Egon gives them to like, I got to deal with my mom. Yeah. Like, go a little, like a little gesture. And Leo turns just right into Marty in their chest plates bump. Like, these dofesses can't even leave a room. properly?

What are they going to do now that I got this like, um, so, this killed me. Am I reading too much into this? Like,

I, this just occurred to me on this last rewatch and I'm, I'm, unconfident in this, but Eddie, Marty and Leo are like two white guys and black dude. One of the white guys has like strawberry blonde hair and the other has like dark curly hair.

And I'm like, is this not, are they not doubles for Thailand, Jasper, or a while? They just look like younger. shittier versions of the three shitty fixtures of

the council. Will we ever hear no time for amusements, Marty? Or will we ever hear Tyler say he's never Fogg's... Eddie, do you think this is meant Egonne to rule? I just... I love these guys. They're incredible. If this, whoever thought of this, it's a genius. Absolutely.

It's a genius. Okay, now it's time to bring the mood down. Let's bring the mood right on down. Allison can tell that Egan is an temper. She asks what's wrong, though she does not, to be clear, like, the answer is not going to lead to any sort of nurturing her comfort. He says, basically, like, my counsel doesn't give a shit what I think, right? They don't take me seriously. And her reply is, with derision and, like, a kind of scoff, what thoughts would you have? Right before she says that, Olivia Cook made, Olivia Cook made the decision to glance at the dragon orgy on the wall. Oh, man. She's like,

You haven't replaced your dragon orgies with tasteful seven-pointed stars. What thoughts could you possibly fucking have? I'm glad that those orgies are still there. Me too. Those orgy tapestries are there. Someone has to care of a history. Oh, man. Okay.

So this is just a very painful. It's a fascinating scene, and it's a painful one. Egon had to hear a lot of tough feedback from his grand sire Otto Haightower in the second episode of the season when he dismissed. him, including, after all I've done for you, thoughtless, feckless, self-indulgent, we have not really seen, like, that was riveting for us to watch, but we didn't feel quite as deeply for Egonne there because we hadn't watched him like seek something from Aldo the way we have seen him seek it from Allison.

Like, obviously we talked a lot in season one about that great post wanking it from the window. you are the challenge conversation. But episode eight is when she says, you are no son of mine. Now, she is disgusted with him for something disgusting. Yes. That's still a thing that he heard his mother say to him, right? And he says in that same episode, like,

I did not ask for this. I've done everything you've asked me to, and I try so hard. I try so hard, but it will never be enough for you or father. Like, he has just never felt good enough for his own family. the very, the people who are seeking to install him. And we've talked a lot about the cycles,

but Allison so often felt that way, like used and deployed as a pawn because of someone else's game. She's in a position now where she's speaking of Otto, the person who often made her feel that way and used her that way as like a statesman without compare. Well, the rewrite of history here is so interesting. It's every time that Otto's gone, right?

She's like, he's like, He's the one. Yes, but not just that. It's also like Viseris. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

This is getting a history wash. This was fascinating. It's mere weeks after his death. Because she said to Reneas in season one, episode nine, the Iron Thorn was yours by blood and by temperament. Vesaris would have lived his day as a country lord. I mean, content to hunt and study his histories, but here we are. She had an agenda in saying that. Yeah, she was trying to woo her.

She's also not wrong in saying it. But we'll get back to this when we talk about Reneera. a little bit more, but like, this idea of Vassaris, the great peacekeeper, you know, on the heels of Jiharis, the conciliator, like, this idea of him, like, he had, there were things that he really fucked up. And all of this bloodshed comes from him. It's why we spent all a season with Viseras's bad decisions last year, because it is why we are here.

So for him to get a history wash of, like, he lived, an era of peace. Right. In the hope that you might be half the king your father was. Also, like, if that's what you want, help him learn how. Like, nobody ever tried to teach Egon to be king. No. Egon carries a lot of blame and has done a lot of awful things, but no one ever tried to teach him to be king. And so, like, you think of something like... Yeah. No one ever tried to teach Eamond either, though, and he studied history and philosophy. My goodness, I have honestly no rebuttal. It's a fantastic point. Well, stated. The moment I was thinking of was at the beginning of this season that Allison's an auto scene when Allison says We only need to mind egg on until the novelty of rule is spent And so on the one hand, when she is laying into him here Like I ruled while your father was ailing and barely functional

Just a vrying corpse. I ruled and you don't come to me for wisdom I think that is completely valid And of course is fueling her resentment But the flip side, the inverse of that is also true Which is like there was no nurturing of egg on no effort made to try to prepare him. The thing is in the scene, the thing through this whole scene is that Allison is right.

Yes. But maybe now is not the time to communicate that message. Right. And certainly maybe not in this way, but also return to the reminder of what she is like physically going through. Yeah. And the scene and then also just like rocked by what Reneira said to her, you know, and that part feels again like very human to me. Yeah.

Like I love actually when the characters do things in the, in the story. story that we're like, because that's so relatable. And you're like, not me, imperfect, but other people, yeah. Everyone but you. Yeah. It's never aired. Yeah. It is so apparent that she doesn't think egg on is fit to rule.

And he isn't. And it was apparent that she, when she conceded it, but also it was a concession that almost felt like this weight lifted that she got to say out loud, a thing that she knew in her soul was right, which is that Reniro would have been a good queen. And this is like her guilt, because the thing is at the end of the day, misunderstanding or not fucking everyone naming their kid egg on or not

just could let's see if Saras had said it yeah if he had changed his mind at the end she knew who had been right to put egg on the floor was no well

mowlery the ramblings of a decaying man high on milk of the poppy should always be taking quite seriously oh my love my love

that was actually the my love part was very big thing but yeah so she's just like her guilt right did I get this wrong? Did I make the wrong choice? And now it is too late and I stuck by it.

Confronting. All that, like, confronting. All that, well, all the negativity she wants to turn in where she's just sort of spueing outward at him. All that said, we can identify the causes. Sin begets sin. I don't know if you've thought about this, but Sin begets sin. Wow. Simon.

Always with that. Many people are saying. The moment when Egon just like broken is rocking. in his chair and saying like, what would you have me do, mother? Real like Joffrey at the Blackwater, like, what would you have me do? Did she, did she say that she had an engine business? The, fuck the king. Do you simply what is needed of you, nothing. The way that Egon's face fell. Yeah. Like your mother saying that to you? Yeah. You would just be a broken person after hearing that. Unlike Rainey's going into battle having anything to do with her conversation with Corley's,

these three chipping away at Aegon, which is Amund, then Jasper, fucking Jasper, and then his mom all being like, you're useless, fuck you, you're not, you're, and which is what he thought of himself. Absolutely. Right? Anyway, so he's like, to all then. I guess I'll get on Sunfire. Okay, Joe, it is time.

to head into the final stretch of this episode. We're heading to Rook's Rest. Gawain has some feedback for Kristen. It's fucking madness. Right? No, I'm not just afraid to die. I'm worse. I'm rational.

Yeah. And you can start to feel it's the glint in Kristen's eye. Something is a foot. Yeah. Over on Dragonstone, something is a foot. It's for near on Stefan.

Still in there. Still in there. Costumes. I like the idea of keeping, like, the fake nose and mustache on as you made it back into your own living room as you like row and the boat back across the bay or however they did it. Wonderful stuff. So we

kind of like, we talked actually about a lot of this earlier, but this is where Jace greets his mother in plain view of all the assembled with a specific energy, right? The way that he says to support the war that your vassals have been fighting in your absence. Your grace, the look

on Reneer's face in response. So that was just absolutely be sensational. And like we do, you know, again, we have to say we supported Renera's mission, right? Go to Kings Landing, make the appeal to Allison, do the desperate thing. The fact that you're a character who could say the desperate thing, I'm willing to do the desperate thing when no one else is. Is to her credit? Oh, they have so many points. And they, to come back and hear this list of all of the ways that your enemy has gained ground on you. Yeah. Is a brutal blow. And I think a couple things. One, it underlines this idea like Renera's

absence first looking for poor little Luke's body and now this it's a problem and that's true in the book written differently in the book just sort of like she was locked away yes she's active but still her absence is a problem and I think that's a very clever way to handle all of that yeah um jace calling her out in all the ways that some viewers were calling her out last this is so stupid possible this is so reckless and and jace is like yeah This is so stupid. This is so reckless. So hopefully it's a mollifying to some people who are like, why would you do something so stupid?

The characters agree with you. The writers in the writers room agree with you. And also, I feel so bad for Stefan Darklin, who comes in and he's like, my dad, and they're like dead. Anyway. Brutal. Brutal. Jason's like, I'd like to get back to talking about how you should let me go out of my dragon. Sorry, Steph.

Mom. Sorry. Yeah. So here it is. Runeira says it. I inherited 80 years apiece from me. my father. Before I was to end it, I needed to know that there was no other path. And now I do. Only one choice remains to me. Either I win my claim or I die. We see Masaria at this moment,

like, emerge. Obsessed with that. I love that. Great. It's perfect. Fantastic. She doesn't have a seat at the table. She doesn't. Right. But she has the information. She's watching. She is an observer. And there's a great little moment where we can, we see how Reneera much like egg on, but for, you know, in different ways, for different reasons. It's like baffled by the Lurukes rest plot. Like she's like, wait, what? And this conversation that, you know, Alfred says, like, he's daring us, daring us to act. I love that they could acknowledge that and see that and know that was true, but the moment

has come where it doesn't matter if you're being dared, right? You do have to act. You actually cannot let Kristen march up the coast and take seat after seat, castle after castle from the houses that were either sworn to you or whose members actually sit on your counsel, block off your land, and do nothing, nothing to defend the people who have sworn my only obeisance. Obesans who have done obeisance. They did a real obeisance.

My only note would be, send all your dragons. Yeah. Well, you know. You're going to break the seal. It's a learning experience for everyone. And Reneira does say, right? She says, there are those who have mistaken my caution for weakness. Let that be their undoing.

I will go. So this reminds us of that conversation with Masaria last episode about, well, I hope we do not confuse mercy with pliancy. It feels very gendered to me. Absolutely. To our point about Viseris being considered a peacemaker, right? This idea, yeah, that Reneer has to constantly be worried that any act of kindness or softness or whatever people think she's weak in a pushover because she's a woman. Right, exactly. And like I really loved, obviously, they talk her out of it.

And so then that becomes out of going herself. And that becomes a contrast with Egon who nobody's even there to talk to. No one's even checking it on. He just goes out on his own. He's like, To wall then. To wall then. Even though she doesn't go, Renira is stating her intent to, like, felt I loved. It felt important.

It's obviously like we can think of so many moments where, you know, Danny is out. Some of them are bad and not good eventually. But in the earlier days, like it made me think about it. Some of them are bad. Some of them are bad. Does anyone hear any bells? I'm just going to say, stop. It's tough still. Does anyone hear any bells? You know, when she goes to fly beyond the wall and, like, Tyrion is chasing after, like, the most important person in the world can't go to the most dangerous place in the world. And, like, that's the energy here, too. But Danny did it, right? And it's going to matter after the battle that she offered to go. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, like, you know, you think of, like, Arias saying, like, my brother, they say my brother always goes where the fighting is thickest or, like, a moment where John can challenge. challenge Ramsey and say, like, are your men going to want to fight for you if they knew you

wouldn't fight for them? Like, this idea of like a leader who was willing to be on the front lines, it does really matter. Swing the sword. Yeah, absolutely. Pass the sentence. Absolutely. So she won't let Jace swing the sword. She won't let Jace go, right?

You lack experience. Renice is here to say that she has experience. Bow already from smushing a bunch of small folks. She simply cannot be that. We talked about this on Untalk to Thrones and our confusion over that line and like, you know, is this about, just all of the patrolling of the gullet, which, like, she's, you know, she's putting on armor, going out there. Obviously, Maly's had a prior writer, Alyssa,

but we don't have any battle insights from there. There's no battle for Maly's. Yeah, and so this question we asked on top of thrones. Could there just be some involvement in a battle that, again, because it's like the Red Queen and the Queen who never was didn't make the historical account. I'm fine with that. It's just funny in proximity to 80 years of peace,

which is a line that comes right before it. A contrast so stark that even Andy Greenwald texted us. He did. He did. How was there 80 years of peace and Rainies went to battle? How does that work? Always lots of little skirmishes popping up about. It's classic Targary and Royal Family, honestly, to be like peace as long as like they're fine.

Sure. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, so it did stand out to us. It's a little odd, but, you know. The sentiment is beautiful, right, like, when she says to Males. But, like, yeah. Males is certainly more experienced in general.

Absolutely. Seasoned. Season. So in Fire and Blood, you know, we've shared this quote before, but we go from Vesaris's death right into, so he never woke. He was 52 years old, and he had reigned over most of Westeros for 26 years. Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. And so like, here we are, right? Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. Now the non-book readers or even book readers, when you read that line, then the storm broke and the dragons danced. You can just see the taigar, Maly's. or Sunfire maybe at least like tangled in the sky it's just incredible okay well speaking of it's time to talk about the last couple

scenes of the episode we have the actual battle of works stress which we'll get to but before then we have this you've been waiting for this like incredible sequence yes

the first hearing Reneera tell Jace about the song of ice and fire there was like a part of me that just honestly just because we've been talking so much about Jason's strip north and how that will influence

how he receives this I was like, but what did Jace say next? And I assume that will still come. Rooks, rest. I don't know what Jace thinks. It's fascinating because I was waiting for so long for that moment. And like, I was just so enraptured and swept up by the way that this was structured and sequenced, the way that this conversation between Reneira and Jace, like, plays over Reneice and Males and Agonne and Sunfire, readying for battle, readying to head out.

It's like the soundtrack to the dawn. of war. It was just like chilling. And, you know, we talked about how On Talk the Thrones, how they're standing, how Reneer and Jace are standing in front of this dragon skull on Dragonstone. And like, I'm all in on this theory. I just, I really feel like it's Maraxis, though it is canonically established on the book that Maraxes' skull is at the Red Keep. For folks who maybe didn't listen to Talk the Thrones or watch it, Maraxies is a dragon

that took a bolt. It's one. It took a bolt through the eye. this dragon skull. I thought it was stone, but you were paying, has a blown-out eye. And so is it Marraxies whose writer was? Rainies.

Rainies. And just... A different Rainies, obviously. Yes, different Rainies. And so, like, that kind of like harbinger of what's to come, but also just the way when you're always like, the position's in front of it, but she's like, look, she looks at it and made me think of her, like, studying the conquest in the books earlier in the season.

She knows what awaits. Not literally for Rainies and Males, but, like, it's. What it means for war to be dawning, right? Have you seen the junket clip of Olivia Cook and Emma Darcy talking about, like, their favorite scene partners? Yeah, the question is, like, who's your favorite scene partner? And Emma Darsie's like, you. And Olivia's like, no, you can't pick me. And Emma's like, oh, I'm not going to pick anyone.

Then they're like, there's this scene with Harry Collette where I'm just speaking to him. And he's so beautifully lit. And I got so emotional. It made me think like he's my own son. Like he looks so beautiful. And I'm like, it's this scene. It's definitely this scene. She said this before the season started, so I didn't know what scene she was talking

about. But I was like thinking about that. I'm like, it's this scene when she's telling him about the song of ice and fire. And also, Emma Darcy is so talented. Because I, almost every other time, Patty did it okay too. But almost every other time someone says, it's a song of ice and fire. It's a game of Thrones. It takes me well out of it.

I just don't like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Emma crushed it. Just sort of tossed it away. It was like really good. Fantastic stuff. I also love this idea of belief, right?

And how this plays into it because Reneira says that she waited to tell Jace. We were wondering like, when is this going to happen by the way, right? Because I was unsure that I believed it myself, which of course makes us think this parallel of Vassaris who's like hammered in front of the bonfire at the hunt said to Allison. Like I named her out of love and because I no longer believed, believed in what? his dream, a son born to him wearing the conqueror's crown. And so this ties into the idea of what the knowledge of this prophecy has led Targaryens or others. Like we talked about Stannis as an example, right, on, and he wouldn't have the egg-on dream specificity, but just the prince that was promised. He's a distant branch on the tree.

What would lead them to do? And, like, you know, Chris asked us this question on Talk to Thrones about, like, is Reneura using the prophecy as, like, justification? And Reneera does say, but to unite the realm, I had to send the dragons to war. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Vesaris told me when he named me his heir. So, you know, to go from like the season one finale when dragons slew to war, everything burned, I do not wish to rule over a kingdom of ash and bone into like the spin, the difference, the shift from the prophecy being the reason you can't allow yourself. to become embroiled in this conflict into, well, like... To war then. To war them, because this is what... This is the path to protecting the realm. It's getting through this. Is fighting this fight.

I've done everything I can to avoid it. I've dressed up as a scepta. I did everything. Had a knife. All of it. I've begun badly. All of it. We'll talk more over our future pods about what other Targaryans might have done with this knowledge in mind.

But it's a fascinating thing to track. Tantalizing. Absolutely. So then we get the dragon sequences readying for the flight. I wept talking about this and Maly's eventual death and looking back at Rheny's. I broke down to tears on Talk to Thrones talking about this. And like, the way that this was cut together. Yes.

I just thought it was exquisite. And, you know, first we see Egon and we go from him like knocking over the dragon pitcher, right? The golden dragon picture. There's your piece idea. And you can just feel, like even though we're building from something kind of something sort of shameful and petty from Agon there, as soon as you're with him and Sunfire, you're just swept up in what that bond means and what it looks like and how it feels. Tomlin Carney, like his face, Agon gets like a kind of boyish look on his face and he lets the dragon like nozzle him sort of like rock him back on his heels. The headbut. I mean Sunfire.

Just getting to see Sunken. Sunfire in full. Yeah. Like when they left Driftmark in season one, and we saw the three silhouettes of the dragons making their way back to Kings Landing, we're like, yes, technically Dreamfire and Sunfire

been in the show. But like, here it is at last. We've been waiting to see Sunfire. Sunfire was said to be the most beautiful dragon ever seen upon the earth. That's from Fire and Blood. The idea that Egan reworked his sigil, not just to avoid the confusion,

but to honor Sunfire. Honor his beautiful golden dragon. We got, as you might imagine, so many emails. about the dragon, dragon rider relationship. We don't have time to read all of them. I'm so sorry. But here I do want to shout out our listener, Sarah,

who did an interesting analysis of the difference between Agon greeting Sunfire and Mayleason and Rainies. It bleeds into sort of the analysis of the battle, but Mayleys and Rainey's is these like compatriots, right, sisters in arms, sort of like we've dug coal together, we've been through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, here we go. We're partners. Yes. Agon and Sunfire being more, as Sarah writes, like a boy and his golden retriever. Just this sort of like really sweet, like, whatever. And then like, she talks about Amon using Vagar more like a weapon. I'm not sure I wholly agree with that. But I do think, though he didn't get this like greedy before battle isolated moment,

I do think the moment when he's like, like, wait. Vagar and Vagar just sort of like flumps into the leaves, sort of was that similar moment of just sort of like, here's a person and their and their beasts, their friend, who is also a monster of war. Yes. But like, yeah, the nature of that bond and connection, a connection that transcends, even though they are communicating with language, with commands, like the way that they understand each other or the depth of feeling and devotion that is on display. It was so beautiful. So like I love that little sunfire headbutt, like very, very my pet.

greeting me at home. I just thought it was so sweet and wonderful. And I think you calling out Egon's like boyish smile is really wonderful. And like the way that Maly's rose in the dragon mount to greet Reynese and like, you know, you think of the number of times over this period where she would have been meeting her that way and she gets on her and they go to the gullet and this becomes a routine, but how different you could tell it felt for both of them. Like the way that she presses her hands against her and the look. We get that we're primed for the final. Did we Did we rest enough? Did we rest?

Yes. Must gorge and rest. We're primed for that final back shoulder look in the final moment of life because we get a little look back here. And then that way that Renese looks at aren't some miles. And like their bond is a really, I mean, all of the Dragon and Dragon Iron Rion bonds are amazing in different ways. But like the Rainies, Maly's one is a really cool one in the books. And I love, we've shared this passage, I think, on other pods, but I thought it would be a fun one to read because it tells us a lot about, first of all, just how, how long they've been together, but

like the spirit at the heart of their relationship, a dragon rider since the age of 13 is from fire and blood. She insisted upon arriving for the wedding on Maly's, the Red Queen, the magnificent scarlet she dragon that had once born her aunt, Alyssa, Damon and Vassaris's mother.

We can go back to the ends of the earth together, she promised Sir Corlis, but I'll get there first as I'll be flying. I just like, I love that. I love it. And so again, you feel that history and the length of that experience, battle or otherwise, in contrast to, like, Sunfire does not have experience with this, and you can tell, and it's heartbreaking. And, like, I'm eager to see more from, like, Damon and Caraxies or Rainier and Syrax. Like, we saw Syracs, like, mourning with Renier a couple times. But I would love to see even more of this. And I think they did such a good job. We've talked about this in the spoiler section.

Such a good job leading up to this battle Giving us so much Rainey's material In the three episodes leading up to this And especially like starting the season With Mellies and Rainies coming into the Dragon Mountain Yes You know like... Yes, with Damon Singh

Yeah, we gotta go I need you to come help me take on Vega I can't do it on my own It's tough Oh, tough rewatch My God, okay, to the battle The Battle of Rook's Rest Runei Senegal

fly out from Dragonstone from Kings Landing. It got us decked out in that Valerian steel armor. And then we see the ground troops. They're already engaged in battle. And then the dragon arrives, Maly's is here. Burning Crispin's man puts a new spin on Sir Crispin. Sir Crispin, was it? And Gouin rides into chastised Kristen.

He's like, this was your plan? Right? Audience insert. What is that? You left us exposed for the slaughter. And he's like, this is, right? Right. It is all going. He'll have a different response shortly, but right now, like, it's happening. This is the trap. Sir Kristen was not dismayed. It goes in fire and blood. Agon's hand had expected this, counted on it. They wanted to lure. Then here comes the fucking king on sunfire. And this is not the move. Did you enjoy the very Lord of the Ringsian, like Light the Beacons horn sounding to alert Amen and Vagar? And the way Vagar rises. Oh, yeah.

Oh, exceptional stuff. Wonderful. Wonderful stuff. So Eggon sees, Sunfire, flying overhead, Joe. What does he say? Idiot. Excuse me. Amen C's.

Yeah. Aem and C's. Idiot. Idiot. In Valerian. Idiot. Waits. Vagar.

That's not what he says. He says in a Valerian. Okay. And then, Gwain's like, your plan is to send the fucking king in a battle. And Cole's like, no. No. That wasn't the plan.

And then Cole. Rally. Tribus. I hate to say this. gives us a fucking Aragorn Braveheart Theoden King

speech Yes, a little clear eyes full hearts now to ruin Like I mean Just And it works It does

And the men Ride into battle They don't go back In the tree line They go into battle Under Dragonfire Under Dragonfire Chris and Cole

You suck But that worked So good job For the seven Have blessed And shielded This host With divine purpose

I love that Even in a moment Where we have to admire Kristen's ability to mobilize the troops, we can interrogate this hypocrisy of him cloaking himself always in this idea

of righteousness, literally cloaking his horse in the seven-pointed star insignia. So, Egana and Rehnese, they both urge their dragons forward, and they meet. One in common tongue, one in Valerian. Incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. And Sunfire looks so tiny. The scaling of the dragons across the stretch

was just exceptional, so tiny next to Mali's shredding Sunfire's chests. with her talents as dragon fought, as dragon fought dragon with tooth and claw and flame. I liked hearing Alan Taylor talk about how, like, the birds of prey. It was wonderful.

In terms of the physics of it, the movement. Joe, you mentioned you were struck by the way that like the smoke and boiling blood. Gouts of blood. Pouring ass on fire. I was like very, very, this was where I started to get. just like deeply. I was, it's painful to watch, seeing Sunfire struggling to rise back into the air

so badly wounded already. If I'm gonna, by the way, if I'm gonna consume blood, I prefer it mashed up with some red currant in a kitchen. Not from an injured dragon. No dragon injuries. No boiling forward on my head. No dragon injuries and no boiling blood on the head.

Yeah. This reminded me a little bit of, this reminded me a little bit of Viserian and Regal. You know, after being kept in the catacombs in Marine. Locked up. Not paired with riders, locked up that, like,

they're so much smaller than Drogon when the three of them unite in the sky. Sunfire is not ready for this. And so it's interesting to compare, to think about this when we have to assess

like, was Reneer a right to tell Jace not to go? Yes. You know, right. Because like, yes. I mean, you know, Jason Vermax had a very successful

trip up to the veil of the north. Maybe Jason Vermax plus Rainies and Maley's, but still I do not like Jason's odds there. Yeah. No. So we have a third.

The dragon has three heads. And there are three dragons in this battle. The giant wings coming up above the tree line reminds me of Vagar looming up the outside the wall of Storm's End and the rain last season. This just sort of like always looming, always monstrous, always best to be seen in only parts of her as she looms. It was like a horror sequence here. it. Agon is thrilled. So sad. Thrill to see his brother celebrates his arrival. Thank the gods. We recall, of course, the way that Egan spoke of his brother earlier in the season. My closest blood. Our best sword. I welcome him. This was when Allison was like, why is he at the small council meeting? He's not invited. My brother at least knows his place. He's as loyal as a hound. I can set him and his dragon on my foes at will. But also the shit that he said to him at the brothel. He's like two, two, sides of the coin of Agon. Absolutely. Yes. Let's talk about what Amon does.

Dracares. He sees his brother and his brother's dragon and Reini's and her dragon entwined and he issues that command, burns them. So this is something we asked you and Mitchell about. You'll get to hear this in the interview. But there's obviously a lot to parse here, right? And in terms of like how active of an effort is this to, I will try to kill my brother. Right. Versus it's his own damn faulty gun in the way. Exactly. Yeah. So let's read the passage here from Fire and Blood just because this was a real update for us as book readers to see in the show, first of all, that Agon's arrival is a surprise.

And second of all, that what happens to him was of his brother's doing. Would you like to read the Fire and Blood passage here? Then came an answering roar. Two more winged shapes appeared. The king of stride Sunfire the Golden and his brother Amund upon Vagar. Kristen Cole had sprung his trap. And Reneas had come snatching at the bait. Now the teeth closed around her.

Princess Reneas made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Maly's towards a foe. Against Vagar alone, she might have had some chance. But against Vagar and Sunfire together, doom was certain. The dragons met violently, a thousand feet above the field of battle, as balls of fire burst and blossom, so bright that men swore later that the sky was full of suns. And then they just crash is how it's described. It's like the three of them crash.

And the chips fall where they may after that. None of this like maneuvering that we get here. And the maneuvering is so good. So exciting, so devastating. The connection between Rainies and Maly's throughout. The logistics of it too are so interesting to me The idea that like Vagar hits the ground But then it hits the ground kind of running

And then just sort of swoops off a cliff And chills behind a castle Lying in wait I think this idea that like How could you possibly lose track of Vagar? She's so big Okay tell me, I'm gonna channel Bala and say like You tell me after you're like half blind with smoke

You've been flame blasted a couple times in the air. Yeah. I have no notes for Rennie's. Chaos and carnage everywhere. Is your interpretation of Runez turning back around, given she had like a couple opportunities to leave, that I can't let, we talked about this about Talk to Thrones, but like I can't let a threat. Like if I have any chance at all, I probably don't.

Let me strap myself in. Yes. But if I have any chance at all of taking, if I have any chance at all of taking Amon and Vagar out, I have to. take it now. I think so. Yeah, I think like Renice is, so Renice has seen Sunfire Poor beautiful

Sunfire so badly injured howling. They crashed down into the tree canopy, Renice has seen this and it's like Renice also saw Amon recklessly burn his own brother like it's not just like the threat cannot be overstated. Yes. Right.

Vigar and Amit have already killed Luke and ARAX. Like, I think that Reneas did, right, we spent a lot of time talking about this in chronically, this Reneas did everything possible. Reneas's allegiance to Reneera ultimately hinged on the idea that Reneer was willing to exercise restraint. This was all, this is the thing that Reneas wanted to avoid at all costs, but it's here. And there's no avoiding it anymore. And so she sees Sunfire go down and it's one-on-one.

And even though Vagar is the biggest and oldest and fiercest beast in the land, she couldn't turn away. There's no way. Like when she burst through the dragon pit in season one and it made no sense and we hated it. We hated it.

And she said at the time, it's not my word to start. That did not explain. That explained why she didn't burn the people, the greens. It didn't explain why she killed all the small folks.

Still don't understand it. Anyway, she sent herself into this battle because the moment had arrived at last. And she wanted to do whatever she could to try to end it here. And when you have that chance one-on-one, I don't think she could live with herself if she left.

It's also so interesting to think about, we got a ton of emails about this, but interesting to think about the relationship between Males and Vagar. Yes. That Males and Vagar used to fly together because Bailon and Alyssa were their writers. Yep. Hus and wife were their writers, right? And then also that Vagar was Lena's dragon. And so Vagar who burned Laina you know, when she asked for it at the, in the midpoint in last season, like Rainis's daughter, right? So both Rainis and Lena are killed in a way

by the same dragon. What is the relationship between the dragons? What kind of memory do they have of their relationship to each other? It seems like no matter what, it's always superseded by the relationship between the dragon and the writer. Yeah.

This is why I read this passage on Talk to Thrones, but I'll read it again. because it feels really relevant to this point. This is about a different... This is from a different point in the story, so like, don't Google this, but it feels very relevant here. Some will claim that the bond

between a dragon and dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. But who was the ally here and who the enemy? Does a riderless dragon? No friend from foe? So that I've always loved that passage because of exactly what you're asking and what our listeners are asking,

like, what is the driver? And the driver, it really then, like, heightens the theme, of course, like, the only thing that could tear down the House of the Dragon was itself, which was the opening note from the series. Right. So the fact that the Dragons have this history and sometimes a history of affection of, like, a union because of their riders, the fact that they would then be in conflict here, it helps to reinforce, like, what an unnatural thing this is that House Targaryen is doing. How horrible and what a violation, right, of their own lineage. this war of succession is. And then when you feel like, well, what would Trump that history? What would Trump, Alyssa and Baylon, flying together in the skies on Males and Beghar?

It's the person in that saddle right now. And like there's something that's kind of harrowing about that, but also something that's amazing about it because it heightens our sense of the magnitude and prominence of that relationship. Absolutely. And I think it's interesting when you're like, okay, what does? Amund have against Rainis, I think you and Mitchell kind of addressed this in our interview, so you might want to, we didn't ask them that question directly, but he kind of answers it, which I thought was really, it hadn't occurred to me that part of their history, but it was

interesting to me. I do want to read this last email I think that I have for today from our listener, Michal, who writes the subject line was dragons, their crowns, dragons, their shrouds, which I loved. And Mikhail writes, Rainis doesn't actually die as a result of Aeman, Vagar, enacting direct violence on her body. She's burned to a crisp or chomped in, well she is, but, or chomped in half or stabbed because her dragon explodes. She's burned to a criss, not because someone blessed a fire her. Anyway, Rainis dies because she is hundreds of feet in the air, bound to the body of the dragon that brought her there. The reason I love this is not because it diffuses responsibility

from Amen as in the Luke situation. It super doesn't. But the proximate nature of Rainis' death turns an already powerful spectacle and tragedy into a seedingly potent visual metaphor. Dragons always do double duty as beast and emblem in this show. They are both literally and symbolically the source of Targaryen power, the avatar of the dynasty, the reason why this family rules this land in the first place. And as the dragons have carried the Targaryians to, again, literal and symbolic heights, they never could have reached otherwise. So in this battle and this war, they become the impossible weight that sends them back to Earth. In her final fall, Rainius becomes the physical representation of her family and the dichotomy at the heart of all Targaryen stories.

Killer email. Love that. Beautiful. But, like, the idea, it's not just, like, that I will be thinking about these dragons tangled in the sky when I think about that line, the dragons danced. Yeah. But also, honestly, any time I look at the Targaryen sigil. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

You know? Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. I, we've quoted Stannis, you know, from Game of Thrones asking Shreen, like, well, I don't know why the gall to dance. This is. the horror of this, right, in how the name masks and glosses over the violence on display is one of the great passages from Fire and Blood, so we should share it here. The Dance of the Dragons is the flowery name bestowed upon the savage internecine struggle for the Iron Throne of Westrose fought between two rival branches of House Targary and during the years 129 to 131 AC.

to characterize the dark, turbulent, bloody doings of this period as a dance, strikes us as grotesquely inappropriate. No doubt the phrase originated with some singer, the dying of the dragons would be altogether more fitting. But tradition, time, and Grandmaster Monken have burned the more poetic usage into the pages of history. So we must dance along with the rest. And like the reason that that was on my mind here, I mean, we'll talk in a section about like what. Great stuff. great stuff. The world, the new world.

That Kristen wakes up to. Yes. But also, you do feel the poetry here, right? It's horrifying and beautiful. And beautiful. And, like, I just thought this episode captured that duality. Totally.

Beautifully. And, like, you know, this was the other thing I was talking about that made me sob and lean over into your arms on Talk to Thrones. But, like, I do just want to say it again on this episode. And it seems like a lot of people really felt this watching it. Like, this was a beautiful way to, obviously it's a devastating moment, Rheny's death and Maly's death. But it is a beautiful way to celebrate not only that bond, but what that bond represents,

which is like the magic at the heart of a world that you build and we inhabit. And like this is why, yeah, I know. God, the cold, like the smoke going out in her neck and the way. And the light going on her eye. Like her last second of life to look at her rider. Like it was just like so beautiful. And how Rainy felt about bringing her there. Yes.

Yes. There's like that apology that passes between them, but also like the gratitude for the life they shared together. It's just incredible. We're not here yet with Thrones. I love you. By the way. We're not here yet with House the Dragon in terms of like I think this show is as good as Thrones. I think it's still not quite there.

But something that I love that it's fulfilling. for both of us. My manic excitement about witches and your emotion about dragons is exactly this. It's just sort of like the way in which that show sometimes was like,

it's almost like a musical that's embarrassed to be a musical, like a fantasy show that was occasionally embarrassed to be a fantasy show. Yeah. At the end especially. Yeah.

This, they're just like marinated. They're soaking in it. It's a celebration of the thing that brought, some of us at least, not everyone, and that's okay, but some of us. Like the thing that

made you, like, that led to people finding belonging in that world? Like, it's just really special to see that on screen. I loved it. It was super sad. It's going to be a really painful show to watch. But I just thought that was, like, magical. So I loved it. Kristen wakes up.

To a new world. To a new world. Where he's like, oh, I thought I was in charge of this. I thought this was what I wanted. I thought this was what I wanted and I thought I was in charge of this. But it turns out I am out of my depth. you know, and just genuine L.O.L. for me, hearing Gwain, Hightower, lead the vanguard.

Incredible. Kristen's like, fuck. Into the bridge! Into the bridge! Really funny. That was really great. So Kristen is confronting not only what the reality of nuclear war, of dragon war looks like.

Yeah. But of the fact that his trap that he laid, resulted in something terrible be falling the king. You know, we've talked, so we have talked a lot about all of the wonderful track the show laid for Amon,

however active or passive it is, making the decision that he made. You mentioned the brothel scene, that felt like such a, such a massive thing. Last episode, Condal had a great moment on inside the episode

where he's like, if there's one rule to take away in House of the Dragon, it's don't laugh at Amin. Bad things happen. We think back to Pink Tried, etc. I was wondering, what will everybody on the ground make of what they saw?

What will Kristen make of it? Not just what he finds in the woods when he walks up and is searching for sunfire and Agon and finds Amid with his sword out, but like, people saw, or did they? Can you understand? Is it just the suns in the ball of fire and suns in the air? Like, do you think anyone on the ground will understand that Neiman sent that fire?

I don't think so. I think the more important takeaway from this, from all the people who saw battle at Rook's Rest, the PTSD that they will have, is what it means to fight in a battle with dragons. I mean, people who fought in the stepstones already sort of saw that, but, like, I mean, we saw Coraxi smush someone into the mind. Mostly the triarchy was just, like, hiding in the caves until the very end.

But, like, as Ryan Condle promised at the start of the season, this idea of, like, more emphasis on the small folk at this season, again, we're watching, we watch these people on the ground get just absolutely smooched and torched by the dance. Vigar making it through the field. Smooching. Talonsmush after talent smush was harrowing.

How do you process what Kristen, the scene that he comes upon with Amon, with sword out, making his way toward. I don't know. I think I need to see a little bit more. I mean, like you and Mitchell will talk about this a bit

so I don't really want to step on that. But like, I think I need to see a little bit more of how Amon is going to react next week. One thing we know is that he picked up the dagger of prophecy. He does the dagger of prophecy. I don't think he'll be using it as a pointer.

It looks a little sooty. You might want to polish it. Oh my God. Did we miss anything? I don't think so. I think we should. Should we hear from you? Yeah, let's do it.

We have kind of a two-pronged question. One, we have another co-host. He does a House of the Dragon breakdown show with us. And we've been having a passionate debate with him over the last couple weeks because we feel sure that Amund is sort of in a, my mother was mean to me, and now I am in this like infantilizing mother's milk scenario that I have crafted for myself situation. Our beloved co-host and colleague thinks that you are drinking milk of the poppy and getting high. So one, we would love for you to settle that debate for us that is just like embroiling the Ringer creative team.

Milk or milk of the poppy. And then to build off what you were just saying about what those scenes have shown us about Amos, The vulnerability, the truth, the fact that he is able to admit to Sylvie, but no one else, that he feels remorse. If we then play out the string of that, what does it tell us about Amid? What kind of harbinger is it that when Egon walks in and shames him, Amid feels compelled to stand up and say in front of this one person who he clearly trusts that is comfortable being himself in front of one horror is as good as any other? No, it's terrible. It's, I think it's Amin's code in effect in that moment. I love that line from Michael Mann's Heat that Robert De Niro's character says,

he says, you know, never get attached to someone. You're not prepared to walk out in 30 seconds flat. You feel the heat coming around the corner. And that helps his, you know, that helps Robert DeNero's character able to maneuver his work. without getting caught by the police and Al Pacino. And Amon possesses a very similar code that in part protects him from feeling like a kid, that bullied, neglected kid that he once was. And so that's why he's so easily able to walk out of Madame in that moment,

in that moment when Egon and his crew catch him in such a vulnerable spot, barely or probably the most vulnerable will ever see Aynne. and he's humiliated the next moment and so you see that code come into effect the switch shows on and he turns around and he proclaims and he says what he says

and it's I think that's the thing about England is that he does not care what you think about him so long as that isn't weak because weak is not in Ayn's vocabulary very. It's not, he sees love as weakness. He sees compassion as weakness. And so long as Amand is seen as this, you know, merciless, like I say, on killable kind of terminator-like bigger, you know, and people are afraid of him, that's what we want. He can't be seen as

weak at all costs. And then milk or milk of the poppy? Oh, I didn't want to answer that. I didn't. I like, no, I quite like that theory. And maybe I'll leave it up in the air. Okay, okay. The mystery continues. The mystery continues. Fun. Aiming gets to turn the tables on Agon pretty quickly in episode four. We loved the small council sequence where you were basically humiliating him with your fluency in Valerian and his terrible Valerian. And I was wondering what you wanted to say about, we talk a lot about these symbols of,

of legitimacy that Aegon has. He has the sword, the crown, the throne, the dagger prophecy that he just jams in the table if he wants to. What does it mean for Amon's sort of sign of legitimacy to be this thing that he studied and learned, Valerian, something that he had to actively pursue, wasn't given to him? Yeah, so that scene in episode four,

it's ultimately a public shaming. but Amon does it in such a way that Agon is allowed to save face because there's no one else in that room none of the other council members they understand what these two kids are saying

but you know what Aymond is saying and so it's also a statement of like you say the hard work that Aman has put in whilst Agon was in some sleazy corner in Flea button

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think, you know, Amund, he always felt like Egan was inferior. And in that moment, he very much puts Egon in his place. So, building off of that idea of how Amund perceives Egon and has for some time, you know, we can think back to scenes when they were children in season one and how Amid was just astonished that Egan couldn't properly value. Helena and their inheritance as Targaryen royalty, or the way that he spoke pretty openly to Kristen in the penultimate episode of season one about how he believed that he would be a better

king, and then we build into the bullying sequence at the brothel in season two, the small council exchanges, et cetera. So let's talk about what happens at the end of episode four. Take us into Aymann's headspace, is that, from your perspective, an active choice to take Egon or try to take Egon off the board and say, I would be better at this than you. I want you gone. Or is it more passive? You know, we get that little Valerian utterance of idiot when Egon shows up. Is it more like, listen, if he's too stupid to let me win his war and he's going to be collateral damage, so be it. Active, passive? what's going through his head? Yeah, I think that's a great way of someone.

Although I think that moment in season one where Agon says himself, I'll sail away. And, you know, I have no wish to rule. You can see how that might be lucrative to members of the small council because that's someone that you might be able to control. Whereas Aymond, on the other hand, he, who you could argue possesses his own political agenda

whose ambitions remain ambiguous or you never really know, you know, where it's true allegiance lies with Amon. So that might be a little harder to control. And in that moment, in the skies above Rook's rest, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to answer all the questions because people will stop asking them, but it is, I think it's, you know, is it, is it, you know, was egg on the variable in that moment? Or, you know, did he see an opportunity to take two dragons out with one stone? And I think it's a, it's a, it's a cool conversation and a debate that, I don't know,

I want to let the fans enjoy it. This is great. You can tell, fan of podcasting, likes to give us that fodder, you know, to fill our weeks. Yeah, very generous. Well, can I ask a quick, quick follow up then? you, I like that, that you're keeping that ambiguous. How would you characterize what's going in through your head at the very end when Kristen rolls up on you and you have the dagger and you point towards the body? What do you feel like is going on with Amund there?

You know, what Amund does in that sequence is ultimately changed, you know, Westroft's forever going forward. You know, whereas season one, episode 10, it was very much an accident. What happened when Amund was at Sopper-Vegar. killing Luke and Hark in this moment in episode four. It was very intentional. And so there's no going back. And yeah, I can't wait for people to experience the fallout of Rook's rest next episode. Can I ask you a quick acting trick question?

You mentioned in a preseason interview you were talking about this trick that James Gandalfini had on the Sopranos where he would put something in his shoe to irritate him. a rock to irritate himself in the scene. And you wouldn't tell the person you were talking to what the item was for fear of spoilers. So our question to you is, is it the coin that Aman finds in his room? And how often have you shoved that coin into your boot

in a given scene? It was, it was the coin. Yeah. But it was something, you know, everything that coin represents. It shows that, you know, Damon got this close to Kim and Eamon. And that's something that I felt I wanted to live in Damon's head, rent free, going forward.

And it does. Like after a couple of hours, that little stone, it starts to irritate. You know, it kind of puts your walk off balance. And so, yeah, I mean, it's super, it also raises the question in that moment. Why did Damon hire Bud and cheese? If you wanted the job doing it properly, surely he should have just come and do it himself. you know, maybe he was too afraid. I love that.

One last quick question. When we see you playing with the coin at the small council scene, like any time we see that coin, is that a you acting choice? But, you know, were you like, hey, can I keep this coin with me as a sort of character moment for Amon to reference? It was. It was a choice that I presented to the writer. And whilst we were the day before shooting that scene,

I just said to David Hancock of that episode, I was like it would be, because you never truly know what's going on behind Amon's eye, I thought maybe there was an opportunity to show, you know, this kind of process, you know, externally what's happening. And so I thought there was something interesting in rolling a coin in that scene.

And then when, you know, whilst Cole and Amund are very, much, you know, the plan that they've been curating finally just to come to fruition that they're, you know, manufacturing around this council table, the variable being that Cole says, Vagar will remain here, and that's not part of our plan. And so that coin roll, it stops just momentarily, but just to show, just to give that to the audience and say, you know, that's not part of the plan. And then when that coin starts rolling again, it gives the sense.

that, okay, a new plan is taking hold here. And then just from that idea that I had, David Hancock and Ryan Condor, they expanded it and they, you know, they create this idea that actually will be one of the coins that is left in Aymond's bedcham but when blood and sheets, you know, were sneaking. Yeah.

That's incredible. We love thinking about the different, motivations and factors that drive Amund. And obviously, Damon and that coin, it's a big one. You know, this idea of Amends and Damon as foils, as mirrors, this idea for Amman that that Damon would think he was like a worthy foe, the way that that would emboldened and drive him. And another core motivation for Amon, obviously, is like the literal wound and the emotional wounds of childhood, right? The pink dread, prank, Luke slicing out his eye. And so one of the things we were curious to ask you about is like given both for your character how foundational

those childhood traumas are, but also more broadly, and this has been a huge theme of the season so far, this idea of cycles and what we pass down and what we inherit and what carries forward and whether we can identify where anything started or whether it's too late, that sequence on Driftmark is so foundational and of course it was a different cast. So how have you connected to that aspect of Aman's backstory given that those weren't scenes that you performed? it was always something the hour restaurant's performance

was always something that I carried around with me especially in season two just remembering that vulnerable you know bullied kid

and how that kind of informed his future years you know it's like you were saying that I call it the I for the scene in episode 7

when Amand is being you know mended by the the maisters you know the damage that's been

you know, irreversibly done to his, to his space is in his eye. I, it was, it's a scene that I, a lot of, a lot of adults in the room held their silence that day. You know, one of which was rainy, one of which was the sea snake. And it was only very much an adolescent that was, that was, you know, back in his corner. You know, whilst Renera was trying to steer the conversation away, where, you know, Amon had discovered this illegitimate slur strong from, Alison kept on bringing it home and said, look, this kid has been damaged for life.

It goes back to that thing of, you know, a kid who doesn't have that many, you know, voices around him that support him, you know, the fact that he didn't get that much, you know, love from his mum, he doesn't really know how to show him, you know, if a kid doesn't, you know, experience that unconditional love, you find it difficult to develop a balanced view of themselves. And if a child isn't embraced by the village, they'll burn it down to feel its warmth. And so, Eamond holds a lot of the voiceless in that room, that day, accountable. and so instead he will he will he will seek validation and and ultimately you know attention through all the means through war you know and by his name large enough for the whole world to see

amand he's got it you know he holds a grudge he gives but he does not forget oh man that's beautiful i'm not sure he forgives either to be honest On that very same episode, you know, he's been neglected or rejected by his own family, but he has a huge moment where he's accepted by Vagar. Vagar chooses him, sees something in him that she thinks is worthy. But my question is, how much is who Aeman then becomes shaped by that choice, shaped the idea of, like, living up to having Vagar as his, has his mount? Yeah, something that I never comprehended before. I actually watched that sequence in episode seven when Amund claims Vega was that Hamond is the kid who held on, you know, when he recognized from a very early age that he wouldn't get a dragon egg, like the rest of the kids in the family, that he would in fact be different.

He held on when he was bullied for being different, relentlessly, day in, day out. He held on. Then when Vagar took off over the beaches of drift mark in episode seven, you know, he held on and he held on fighter than ever before. And it's that story of, you know, persistence. The idea of that you need to know what it's like down here so you'll fight even more for what I saw there. Maybe that's what Vagar saw in him.

Maybe she saw someone who was bold enough to, you know, to stare at adversity. in the face and I mean ultimately what he does is a tremendous fee of courage and it's certainly one of the redeemable aspects of of Aemond

and maybe you know maybe she saw something that he himself hasn't seen yet I think it's I love the whole you know writer and dragon bond and you know how they're almost extensions of each other

I don't want to geek you out too much but it's impossible You're well at home here. Impossible. We love it. This is a podcast where we routinely quote passages at length from all of the texts and then talk about magical creatures for hours on end. And it was one of the other things we wanted to ask you because we are lovers of magical creatures and also the magical creatures in our own homes are cats. You are a dog lover.

It's a conversation here between animal enthusiasts and magical creature enthusiasts. So we would be remiss if we did not ask you about that bond, the bond between a man and his whipits. and how your experience as the fabled writer of Vagar has unlocked something new for you in what you see in your pups. Yes, I see my oldest with it, Bella, more and more like Vagar closest. Like every day I'm just like, oh my God, she's Vagar. She's just so lumbuson and so old.

You don't want to get on the wrong side of her. I'm getting a personal space. But at the same time, like, through all that aloofness is a cuddly hug Vagar cuddly hug Vagar cuddly hug Okay

It's Candide I like it I like it a lot yeah It takes a lot of people But if you get all of the people of Kings landing And as a collective They all hook vaguer Beautiful We can end the war right now

It sounds like it Yeah we found our path to peace I love it Okay Anything else you want to ask I have one more question If we have time Team Green.

Make the case. Why should we be, why should anyone be team green? Yeah. If you can. Make the case if you dare. If you dare. Oh my God. There's good and bad on both sides, right?

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, there's monstrous on both sides. I had to make the, we're way more rock and roll. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think it goes back.

You know, I hate to bring. you back here, but it goes back to the eye for an icing when a lot of their sides of, you know, they all held their silence. And that's, you know, that's what could have been resolved with simple words of apology. They very much allowed it. Like I say, Aymond forgives, but he does not forget. Okay. Excellent. Well, thank you for the chat. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. You're incredible. Yeah. Thank you so much. What a wonderful chat with you and Mitchell. one eye himself.

Keeps the coin in his shoe. Incredible. Will you be doing that moving forward? I already am. But for you, it's a tab from a little crook can. Correct. No free ads.

Okay. It is time now for the book. Look ahead. If you don't want to hear about anything that's yet to come in the text,

this is where we leave you. We hope you enjoyed your many, many, many hours of the podcast today. Hi. All right. This is a relatively quick, quick one today.

Cool, quick one. Let's see. What should we hit? Oscar Tully is here. We got a Benjicott mention. You can't really hear it. But if you have the subtitles on, our beloved Bloody Ben is mentioned by Willem.

Makeway for the lads. I am so hyped from this. I just simply can't wait. You love too much boys killing each other. You're like, give me some. I just love Bloody Ben. The Hulls. Okay.

Adam and Allen. Yeah. Do you think that this, like, your mother must have been very beautiful? Does this mean we're just never getting mouse? Never getting Marilda in the show? I don't. think so. Yeah, this was it. I don't think there's a lot of room for her, but I do think this whole, like,

Rainey's saying he should be raised up and honored is Corleus's whole, because what happens next is Corlees after he blames for Niro for Rainier's death and all the sort of stuff like that is like, can you please legitimize my sons? And so the fact that that's sort of like Reineas's dying like wish, it's not really, but like sort of, I think that's beautiful. Me too. I really love that he's, because there's a way to read it in the book where it's like, did you just wait for, Okay, like my wife's dead, so now I can like. Right, no. This is like, this is what she wanted.

Allen's going to be my air. Yeah, great stuff. Fuck you, Raina. Hold that part stuff. That part stuff. Eat dirt job. They literally well, that's that. Okay.

Oh my God. Tough one. All right, the butcher's ball. My most anticipated event of. It's just like, huge props. A battle where Chris and Cole will die. Yeah. Yeah.

Yours will come in kind. Yours will come in kind. It made me think of Pete saying, I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse, which is just like one of the best passages in the book. This, like, yours will come and kind really felt like a little like, butcher's ball. Stay tuned. I know.

I still have some questions, though, about, like, again, I kind of like how lame Chris and Cole's death is. Yeah. And I'm worried they're going to like, Ollie shooting EGrette up, you know, where Eigret gets hit by a random arrow and I kind of love that about it. Yeah. And they're like, no, we have to make it that it was Ali who did it. So, like, are they going to make Chris and Cole's death like that much more spectacular? And I just kind of like that it's lame and stupid and sad. Yeah.

Yeah. Well. I'll just be thinking about his death for the next few years. Don't mind me. Amund. One eye. Oh, man. This is, there's a lot here.

Like, we definitely zoom in and linger on Amon's face when Laris has talked. talking about how Harenhall is going to drive Damon meth. So Amon's going to go to Harron Hall. Now I'm wondering what experience he's going to have, though, and if it's different from the one that we're expecting. If you Google the fan art of Alice servers, you'll probably find her entwined with Amon because they become lovers. So I didn't want that to be a spoiler for people. Alice becomes pregnant. Yes.

Is that actually going to be Amon's baby? She, like, touches her, she puts her hand over her womb at one point in the scene with Damon. when she's talking about... Oh, it's something about legacy. Like the air, right? It's something about legacy. To make your own claim. There's a shot of Damon in the trailer.

Choking a blonde woman in bed. The conventional... And it is not Reneira. The conventional wisdom among people is that this is Emma, Viseris' wife and Damon is having a dream about like a sex dream about Emma and her and all yeah this is the most popular theory about this I was because people think this is a thing that happened no because just like a fantasy yeah based on this is this has been a theory since before the season

started and it was before I knew that just based on trailer analysis because you can like barely see sort of her face it's not Emma Darcy that is true um It was before I knew that, like, Millie Alcock and I regret I can't remember the actress who plays Lena. Like, before I knew these, like, season one actors were coming back for season two. Yeah. So I was like, what do you mean? Why would Emma be in this? But, like, is it going to be that?

Or the other theory I have, which I quite like, is, is it going to be, like, a sex dream about Rainira and, like, she turns into Alice, like a blonde Alice? Because, again, it's not Emma's face, but it could be. Gail Rankin's face in like a blonde wig. But like, is Alice going to like dream entice him into having sex with her? Or David might just have sex with her. He certainly could. Is her baby going to be potentially Damon or potentially Amon's? And does that just like sort of draw them all closer together?

You know? I just genuinely can't wait to find out. Which stuff? Which stuff? One thing I am wondering is like, in fire and blood Amon seeking to challenge Damon and take Harenhaal from him

and then arriving with his host and finding that Damon has already left and that he and Renair have taken Kings Landing is like mortifying for Amos right? It's just one of his, it's like the big whiff. And I'm trying to like figure out how the show is going to set up that kind of mistake from him because he's like not a character who's making

mistakes. I just really hope that we get... But I like that Damon would be his Achilles heel in that respect. I might be slightly back on Rainer taking Kings Landing corner for the end of the season. Gullet, season three. Yes, Gullet I've moved on from. It's season three. Reneer... So the idea of if we get an echo of Damon going through the halls and his armor to find just Simon Strong at the table and Amon has like a serious, like similar

like going through the empty halls and he's like, where the fuck is? everyone, you know, and then Alice is like, oh, hello. The boy child, you burned in the sky. I can't do it's got a shyxman. I apologize. The guttled child. Oh, and like I can. Okay.

You can actually. I mean, I think you can, but I'm sure that's all, it's also like, I'm sure that's not true. Just to me, it sounds like you get. It's basically like miss and out fires what I can do. Okay. Stonehenge. Yeah.

So this is like part of what makes the burning mill stretch in the book like slightly, slightly beefier. It's just that Damon takes the bracken seat while Burning Mill is unfolding. So in the trailer for next week, a house will burn. It's like, can we see the bracken sigils? Is he doing this because Willem Blackwood was like,

go make the brackets pay and then. Give me the head of the brackens and then I'll follow you. Yeah. Yeah. So he's going. he still is going to take their seat or at least burn some of him in the field? Or is that going to be combined with, my question is that going to be combined somehow with the fish feed? Because we know that Jason Lannister is on the march.

And the fish feed is this battle where the Lannister. I'm starting to feel like fish should be like episode seven. Exactly. So they combine a lot of this Riverland plot because the problem with the fish feed, because we know there's one more battle coming. And the problem with it being fish feed is there's literally no one there that we care about. This is why if they add, what if they add Damon? Yeah.

You know, and if there's like, I don't know, who else could be there. But if they add other people, Gwain Hightower, I don't know, other people that we care about at the fish feed. Then it's a much bigger battle. I like it. Willem Blackwood. Our beloved Willem. Yeah. Our favorite character.

He's got to die so the Pentagon can rise. Stefan and the soul. Okay. So Stefan Darklin will try to claim a dragon. It will not go well. And it will not go well. And this like motivated by his death. where you understand his personal.

He's obviously like a loyal member of the Queen's Guard and he stood there and watched Damon threaten him with Caraxies in season one and still stayed true. It's not like he's done nothing to show like he's in the fight. He went with F- fucking Ranier on two Kings Landing. No time for game. This is going to be painful.

Painful. The riot. Yeah. Masaria, this idea that, okay, so we think from the trailer because... This is, yeah, not even really a book. This is just like trailer parsing. But I felt like it maybe not. It seems there's going to be like a small folk riot.

Is this something Masaria is going to orchestrate because there's a trailer line about there's more than one way to win a war? So is Masaria going to send Alinda or someone else because we've seen Alinda? Is Alinda like off to rabble rows in Kings Landing? I don't know. But it's not a bad idea. I don't know what else you could mean by there's more than one way to fight a war. Yeah. Win a war.

Interesting. I'm intrigued. The budget. You mentioned this a couple times. The coffers are empty. there is, in the season of head trailer, it does seem to show that Thailand will be sent to parley with the triarchy because there's this scene that I've only recently understood of him being like dragged through the mud. He's like, it's definitely Jefferson Hall. Is it Jason or Thailand? I think it's Thailand. And it's, he's surrounded by pirity-looking people. So does Thailand go to parlay with a triarchy to try to get some money for what they need? Well, do you think the auto tri-hickry plot is still going to happen?

I don't know. I miss Otto. I do too. I'd like him to return. And what has Kristen Gov done? I mean, we could have used that line in this episode. Boy, look what you did, Kristen. Golly.

Golly. You like the experience. He's like, let me go, let me go, let me go, let me go, let me go. Nothing will keep him from mounting from X to fly. Yeah, he's been told so many times you can't go. Vermex on the trailer for next week, though. I know. At the twins.

Thrilling. I know. Absolutely thrilling. Egon. Okay. Here's my question. Egon's not dead. We should say we can, we sidestepped it in the non-spoiler, but he's not dead.

He's just very badly burned. Crevously wounded. His armor is just melted into his body. I'm slightly ashamed of myself, but in the scenes for next week, I did, like, chuckle a little bit seeing the, like, crate that they're bringing his body back in. They're smuggling him back in. Oh, my God. So funny. Okay, so here's my question.

Will he remember what Amund did to him? He's just a fucking milk of the poppy addict for the rest of his life, doesn't he? Yeah. Like, is he going to be so abled between the pain, the milk of the poppy, the strong wine, that, like, he's just, like, kind of not in control of his faculties. And maybe it's, like, maybe he literally doesn't remember, right? Yeah. Maybe he just isn't, I don't know. But I kind of like the idea that he will remember and never tells anyone because he's so ashamed.

Because that idea of. Classic. But it feels like, it feels like at some point he's going to let Aman know that he knows or something like that. This is my question. Like, will it be something they discuss even though Egan never tells anybody else? Because he never, he could not possibly abide anybody knowing that his brother did that. Why didn't make it into the histories? We did it.

Good show. Super Size episode. Interview. We had an interview. A lot of witch stuff. A lot of witch stuff. Dragons. Wept again.

You cried again. We'll lost this time, but like, I was very moved by this. Very moved by it. Can't believe we're halfway through the season. I know. Don't want it to be over. But we have half a season left.

Let's look at it that way. Dragon egg mug half full. Love that. Three in and this one's almost empty, but I like the spirit of the point. Oh, boy. Okay. Anything else that we're missing, forgetting?

No, we did it. Okay, we've come to know the face of tortured rest. That is a wrap at last. Thank you to our small counsel, Steve Holman, and John Richter for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode and Joe Mia Denneran for his work on the social for this episode. We will see you on Thursday for episode seven.

Penultimate Akal. I can't believe it. God, that season melted away. Fast. Where's the time gone? And then we will be back on Sunday night. immediately after Hot D, episode 5 for Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan. Until then, remember,

we believe it is a sin to deny your appetites. And that's why we did a four-hour podcast today. Embrace the paleness.