House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 6 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

Your queens return to dive deep into Season 2, Episode 6 of 'House of the Dragon'! They begin with the opening snapshot and give their overall impressions of the episode (15:07). Then, they break down all of the juicy bits of Daemon's hauntings, Aaemond's cabinet shuffle, and Rhaenyra's dragon woes (24:59). Later, they speculate over book spoilers and about what is to come (203:30). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman, John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which

streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again? Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step up. into the summer, you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. I came screaming into the world in the bells of one of Haren's great towers. My lungs were strong, but my foot so twisted that my father named it sorcery. Cusing a member of our household of casting maligned spells. People will pity you. Either behind your back

on your presence, we will underestimate you. And this will be your advantage. Welcome to House of R. This episode started with a lairous quote. And that's how you know, Joanna's running the ship today. And also the pained moanings of an invalid in the background.

And that's how you know my co-host. Malie Rubin is here. Hi, Mallory. How you doing? Joe, when Orwell said his grace sleeps nine hours out of every 10, but he did open his eyes and speak however briefly. Was he speaking of Egon or of us doing this pod while riddled with COVID? Riddled with COVID. Hello.

Welcome to the House of Our Season 2 episode 6, deep dive House of the Dragon. I believe what is what is the what is the what is the what is the reference is this your flu game are you playing your flu game mallory yeah yeah yeah Mallory is COVID I have COVID Mallory is COVID for the first time so her COVID cases it's a doozy but she is here she is here and we're really proud of her and we tried to get her to skip this episode I promise we did because we care about her health but she is so dedicated to house of our off the drawing and then she was like, I simply cannot. I simply cannot skip an episode. So here we are, a few days late, but we're here to bring you our deep dive, deep-ish dive of season to episode six.

Yes. Thank you to everybody for waiting for us. Sorry for no fair. Today, you don't want to see us. You don't want to see it. You know, we're like, we're like Grover-Tully, just taking, taking meager drink and trying our best, you know, trying our best. It worked out fine for him, right? Where's a feather pillow when you need one? You know what I mean, Mallory? Okay. Some programming reminders. Quick programming reminders.

The Ringervverse Live Show is up on the feed. You can watch it. You can listen to it. You can watch us get COVID in real time. It's great. It exists there for you if you want to enjoy that. The Mint Edition crew is getting their animation on with Kite Man. Hell yeah.

A Harley Quinn spinoff. for all of us and my adventures with Superman season two. The Midnight Boys, a pew-poo! We'll be here with your Deadpool and Wolverine Instant Reaction podcast. Credible. Also, they're going to San Diego where surely there will be no COVID and they are going to be reacting to the Marvel panel and running around San Diego and having a great time. Steve has already had his COVID, so he will be all set.

Yeah, Steve is also here and also has COVID. recovering quicker than we are. It's a trifect of COVID on this podcast day. Arjuna is also here. He doesn't have COVID yet. He definitely does. He's just waiting for his positive test. Okay.

Arjuna definitely has COVID. But anyway. It's truly grim week for the House of our. Here we are. We will be back with Talk the Thrones after episode seven, but it will not be in studio because I don't know if you heard, but we've got COVID. So, C.R. Mal and I will be recording that for

from home, not from the studio. So I don't know if we're doing video for that, are we? I think we are. Well, then you'll get to see us in all our COVID glory. I'm going to bandage myself like egg on. Or maybe you had suggested via text. Maybe, yeah, the old Vassaris, season one, ep eight mask. I might try that, something to shield the fact.

I did send you, I sent you a picture of me at one point, mere days ago, and you did describe me as looking. quote, eerily lifeless. Because I said I thought I looked like one of the three-d-printed prosthetic people that they're making for House of the Dragon season two. Listen, this is just a long way of saying, we're really going to try our best today. We love House of the Dragon. We love the bad babies. We love each other.

We love talking about thrones together. If we're not at our absolute best, we apologize. Please forgive us. And that forgiveness can come in the shape of well-wishes on social media platform of your choice. If you want to tweet at us, send us an Instagram message, find us on TikTok, blah, blah, the Ringerverse is everywhere in all social media platforms. If you want to follow the pod, because you feel so sorry for us because we sound so pathetic. What a lovely time to do that. Follow the Ringerverse.

Follow House of R. Spoiler warning, of course, today is everything up through episode six of House of the Dragon season two. And then at the end of the pod, we will have a book spoiler section. and there's like a bunch of juicy stuff that we want to talk about in the bookspillers section. If our voices are still working by the time we get there, there will be a bookspillers section on this podcast, and you will get a warning before we dive into that. So you'll have a chance to hop off the pod if you don't want that. Hobbiton Dragons at gmail.com is always open and ready for your emails.

You guys have been crushing it on the email front. So thank you so much for all of that. And we're doing a slightly different format today because Mallory's have to, dead, but more pertinently, half alive, we are not going to be going like scene by scene, line by line covering this episode. We're doing it sort of like character groupings. You're still going to get a healthier than us runtime on this podcast, but, you know, it won't be every single second broken down.

Yeah. If we tried to talk about every line and moment like we usually did every single piece of dialogue would take us as long as Vassaris entering the throne room in season one. We got an email, speaking of Hoppins and Dragons to email. We got email from our listener, Ben. We got several very, thank you, Steve. We've got several very kind, like, well wishes. I wish you good fortune in the great war of COVID to come, et cetera.

But our listener, Ben said, just wanted to say if you had any delirious ramblings to share in your illness so that I could misinterpret them with Realm the Fordome. finding consequences. I'm all ears. So we'll see if Mal's milk of the poppy kicks in a little later on if she starts pawing the air. And then we'll know that's when that's when the real good stuff's coming. And then our listener Kate, who's like an old school binge mode Harry Potter listener with her pal Brian, um, wanted to wait like they've been in this program together, I believe, if I'm understanding the email correctly, been in this program together for long time met and sort of bonded over Benjamin Harry Potter. It is like a foundational part of

their friendship in our House of Our listeners, Ringerverse listeners, Mint Edition listeners, all that sort of stuff. And I believe they are parting. There's a parting of the ways coming because they're done with their program. And so she wanted to wish Brian. Congratulations and good luck on the road ahead. The road leads ever on. How beautiful. But always black to your door. Kate, Brian, thanks for listening. Congratulations. You can still share that adventure. Absolutely. Long distance.

Mal and I are long distance. Adventures journeys. Yeah. Rings of power. Oh, you're doing well. Okay. Let's go into this. It must be shared.

I'm just doing kind of like loose word association now. Is that going to make for a good podcast? You're like playing the greatest sense. You're like stuff. I actually did genuinely. It was just paw at the air like Missera. as mere moments after your reference to... Great.

Episode 6. Smallfolk. Directed by Andri Parak, who I know best from his work on Succession. He directed America Decides, one of the most harrowing hours of television I've ever experienced in my life. Yeah. As well as won an Emmy for hunting. Just a great succession director. A cinematographer worked on Watchman.

Just a great get for House of the Dragon. and really, really good stuff. And if you watch the House of Dragons built, they did a sort of breakdown of how they did the riot. Or spent a long time showing us how Olivia Cook ran down some stairs. And some of these details of her getting hit in the face with the fish crew. Remarkable stuff. But he was talking about how they put all these different cameras on her

so that they didn't have to cut that they could just capture her. That is classic succession house style. where they would just have multiple cameras going at once and the camera people would just be like running after. So like it's fun to rewatch this episode thinking about that sort of Succession House style applied to something like House of the Dragon. And there is a shot in this episode of Alicent in the hallway outside of Agon's room that was in all the trailers that I think is generally like one of the best shots in all of Game of Thrones.

It's just a beautiful framing situation. So I hope that Andre comes back for future seasons. That would be great. Written by Eileen Schem who wrote our favorite episode of season one, episode eight. I mean, killer. That was clarifying for me, too, in terms of part of why I loved this episode so much. Obviously, episode eight of season one is Lord of the Tides is a very different episode. But so many of the things that we loved about it were.

those really like intimate private bedchamber family dinner. You love a private bedchambers. What do you say in the dark when no one else is around kind of moment? So that felt like a clarifying connective tissue once I realized that she had written both of those great stuff. Do you think she had a kick when she was like, oh yeah, we're going back to the silent sisters chamber? And then as we saw in the behind the scenes, they're like, not the candles again.

No. That was amazing. The candle stuff. I mean, the candle stuff was amazing. It always looks great. It looks incredible. It's a big difference between season one and season two. Season one, they did so much of the lighting was by like literal firelight.

They had like actual like chandeliers of fire in the small council room and all the stuff like that. And this season, they're like, maybe we don't need to like sweat in our costumes every day. or like whatever. But they were replicating that season one silent sisters sort of like autopsy room. And so they had to bring all the candles back. And I feel like they were just like, this is why we don't do this shit anymore. This is why we don't light rooms entirely by candles anymore. Looks incredible.

Looks amazing for like 15 seconds of screen time. Opening credits. Welcome to the tapestry. Rooks rest. Yeah. Great to see. Yeah. I have a question.

How are you interpreting the black? So when the top street opening crawl was ending with the rat catchers, the blood that was seeping towards the throne was a red pool. Now it's a black pool. And my initial idea was like, oh, that's because the main casualties at Rook's Ress were team black casualties. And then I remembered that canonically. Dragon Blood is black,

Drogan's Blood in Song of Ice Fire is described as it's black and it smokes and hisses when it's spilled in the fighting pit. So do you think we're just looking at Dragon Blood or we're looking at Team Black Blood? Would we ever see Green Blood? Like, what do you think of this tapestry moment? I took it as just like a visual indicator that this was a moment of change. Like this was the inflection point, truly on the heels of the Sinby gets in.

can you identify the moment where things change and there is no going back that, like, actually this is the moment where there might be other moments that you felt like you couldn't return from, but there actually is no returning from this in terms of the dance being here and full and what that will mean, not only for the realm, but for the Targaryen dynasty, etc. I think also just like the idea of like red and black as the Targaryen colors, like seeing both of those at play. And then, of course, like fire and blood. I think it would have looked odd to try to convey fire as like an orange.

So to get that kind of like ash and smoke, like the way the entire battlefield is just rendered like charcoal. Gave me that kind of vibe as well, like all of the above, I think. It would look great. Great to see Rook's Rest there. They got a lot of different, a lot of different images from Rook's Rest on there. That tapestry is going to be long by the end of House of the Dragon. I'm excited. Do you think we'll ever meet the tapestry weaver the way that like they showed us a song of ice and fire?

in Game of Thrones. It's distinctly possible. It seems like something maybe they won't be able to resist. Season 4, we look forward. Okay, let us... This is not a sentence, but an honor. Let's do our opening snapshot. Okay, so, as you already indicated,

this episode's written by the person who wrote our shared favorite episode of season one. This is an episode you really love. Tell us just like a little bit more about that, Mallory. Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this episode I think like Egon and Lyris, Alicent and Gawain, Amund and Alicent,

Damon and Viseras in the Dreams, Damon and Alice out by the Warewood, Renira and Masaria. This was an episode built around a series of conversations and intimate moments and almost felt like like vignettes between, as we talked about

on Talk of Thrones, like these really deeply, deeply broken, lost people who have reached the point where they are finally, finally able to say, either they'll admit to themselves, which is like, you know, in a case like Damon, right, something that has to happen before he could ever admit it to anybody else, or to another person, like, I can't do this on my own. I don't know if I can do this at all.

I need help from another person or like maybe you could be the one to help me. I could be the one to help you. I am lost. It feels hopeless. How are we going to take another step? And, you know, I thought that the fourth episode of the season, Rooks Rush, was extraordinary. That's still my favorite episode of the season. But Thrones, when it's humming, when it's hitting that very, like, particular, oh, yeah, this can be the last bit of monoculture frequency. Like, it finds the balance on the scales between the substance and the spectacle. And so, like, this season is delivering that in a way that I find, like, reminiscent of what I love most about being in the world. and this episode felt like a necessary kind of like,

we always, you made some lovely points about how there's no such thing as a filler episode. I think that's worth hitting again. And I certainly did not think that this episode was that. But I almost never feel that way about like quieter episodes that are oriented around conversations or taking us inside of a character's perspective. Because if we understand what's driving a character, then we understand their arcs and we understand the story. And so this episode felt really essential to the overall. flow of the season to me. And I also just thought the performances were like lovely.

So I really enjoyed it. How about you? I think it's really grown on me. Like I didn't dislike it when I first watched it. I think it's grown on me a bit since my initial viewing many weeks ago, whatever that was. It's just a few days ago. But it feels like a lifetime. A whole COVID ago.

But I think I had a real issue with episode five was sort of the rockiest for me of the season. And again, it's not because like there wasn't a battle. or anything like that. You and I share that opinion that, like, often I almost prefer the non-battle episodes anyway of Thrones or any given show. And so I think what I still feel about this episode is that I'm feeling a bit of the crush of eight episodes

in a show where we got 10 episodes last season. And so occasionally I feel like I'm zipping around a lot. but when we have a second to stop and sit with a character like we get a scene in this episode with Alan and Adam which we're going to talk about I would love a little bit more time with them

you know what I mean? Like that's a very quick scene and it's efficient and does a lot and tells me a lot but I would just like to feel like I understand Alan like a little bit more and Adam we learned a lot of him just like even through action

in this episode you know So, like, I think that that's a place where I'm like, I would love a little bit more room to breathe, you know, versus like when we get to just hang out in a wherewood courtyard with Damon and Alice, I'm having the best time. Or I think the Agon Laris Exchange is my favorite of, and by exchange, I mean, Aegon just like moaning while listening to Laris monologue. You're genuinely moving. I think is my favorite thing that's happened this season. Just because it is so in line with, as we talked about in Talk to Thrones a bit, so in line with this core George R. Martin idea of the cripples bastards broken things. Absolutely.

I actually agree with that completely. I think that the episode, the best scenes in the episode, that Egg on Laira scene, the Gwain Allison scene, I'm sorry, Runeira. they were so good everything with Seaspoke, which obviously I fucking loved, that they elevate the entire experience,

revisiting the episode. You're right. There are, I mean, we take, you know, we break down our notes by it. Like, there are just a ton of scenes in the episode, a ton of scenes. And I think the call out of like the time we're getting with certain characters

is a good one because like it's been great to spend time with Alan and Adam so far. And obviously everything that happens with Adam and C-Smoke at the end here is a huge propulsive step forward. But all of those moments with them, even though we've had a handful now, have been oriented around the same thing. Like, Corlis.

So, yeah, we haven't had that, like, additional exposure to the rhythm of our life, etc. I think that's a really valid point. I was so riveted by, like, that final stretch of, the episode where those, and some of the, some of the episodes, scenes earlier in the episode that I enjoyed a lot as well, like Damon and Alice. I think also just that idea from Laris, another great Laris idea, the one you mentioned, obviously also my favorite of the episode and are a shared favorite in the Thrones verse for us. But that other one earlier, the enemy without maybe fought with swords, the enemy within is more insidious. We had like talked about what

that might be in reference to when we heard it in a trailer. And I liked the way that idea manifested in this episode as well, like that theme that we've been talking about all season long. This is a war between teams, but it's always inside. It's inside of one family. It's now that we look, okay, it's not just Team Green versus Team Black. It's the deepening of and widening of the chasms inside of each faction. And then also, of course, like, Joe, I don't know if you know this.

but conflict in the human heart is the only thing worth writing about. Wow. And that like that extra layer of meaning too, right? The enemy within more insidious. Like it feels very purposeful that Amin is the character on the receiving end of a line like that. Oh yeah. And I really loved the way that the episode explored the parallels once again and like unifying threads across the character sets because it's a difficult thing to show us how

isolated and alone everybody seems while also reminding us of how their experience is really shared. And then, of course, that's what makes it more potent. Like, they can't see that and use it as a bridge to each other. I think the mini coalition building that we see, you know, be it Alison Damon or Agon and Laris or Masaria and Reneura versus Aman actively just breaking his coalition inside this episode. I think that's really a fascinating parallel. I said this on Talk to Thrones and I'll say it again. I think sometimes the parallels that they draw on the show are like a little too cute. I don't feel great about Allison getting a cut on her arm in the exact same place that Renair got a cut on her arm. I just don't. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But some of these other parallels are

really fascinating to see. And it almost feels like they're trying to construct this elaborate puzzle where in a way that Game of Thrones never did where I don't think that Game of Thrones was always thinking how does this adventure with Aria and the Hound out in the Riverlands coordinate with what's going on at Kingsland? Sometimes it did, at its best it definitely did. Something like Kiss by Fire or whatever

an episode we love to talk about. But I feel like Cassa Dragon is sort of like always trying to create this interlocking puzzle of the human heart across different characters. And Amon, as you call out, this idea of Amon as almost a little boy trying to pretend to be a leader.

We're going to talk about that a bit more when we get to his seat, but the fact that Allison calls out the young boy inside of him, the hurt young boy inside of him that's driving a lot of this. Vengeance. The indignities of your youth.

Yeah, is really key. They're all being driven by the indignities of their youth. Yeah, Laris, for sure. You know, like, it's all over the place. And poor Helena's like, can you just let me stay in my room with my quick place? My sweet, Bob, stop singing. Really appreciate it if I could just stay at home. Thank you.

All right, let's go. I definitely hope that Helena next time, Allison, just like, would you like to go out? Says no. No. I would prefer not to. I'm comfortable. I'm home in my a pleasure with my boss. I'm something came up. I actually can't make it tonight. Thanks for the invite.

I'm so, so sorry I couldn't make it. I just simply did not want to go. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, gusalcumab taken by injection is a prescription. prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before

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Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Steve, will you take us to the deep dive, please? In the bowels of a pleasure den. How often did you hear that noise come out of yourself this last? I haven't been, I don't know if that's exactly. I haven't been able to, like, muster that level of enthusiasm, I don't think.

Or, like, diaphragm strength, yeah. Yeah, my moans and whales have definitely been more, like, egg on weeping as he reaches for his milk of the poppy more and more in that vein for sure. I got to say, we didn't know when we picked that sound cue for the deep dive that it would be the sustenance of life itself this season as we continue to wait for the return of Otto High Tower. Thank God we get to hear him for just a few words every episode. I miss him.

Is he being beset at this very moment by Alad Beesbury? Bees hive rise up. Every now and then we take people behind the curtains. Let's just share this one quick story, which is that every week talk to Thrones ends. It's an hour long show. It's always going to be an hour. Every week it ends. I'm just immediately like, I have a panic attack about the 400 things I didn't say.

And then we're like, we have a very calm conversation about how that's why we have the deep dive. But this time, I turned to you. And I said, you didn't mention the Beesbury shout out. are you going to be okay for the next few days? I didn't know how long I was going to have to wait to get to talk about Alan Beesbury, but here we are. Beeshive. Alan Beesbury.

Lord Lyman Beesbury. Oh, man. Hot young grandson. I don't know what he looks like. He's never described in the book. But I hope they cast him. It would be great to see him. Bees.

Bees. The bees hive is here. They weren't vengeance for their grandsire. As do we? But we're not going to the reach. That's how we're going. We're going to the Westwoods. We're going to see Jason Lanister.

And this is, like I said literally, I think last week, I'm like, are we going to, are you going to have any dinosaurs on your dinosaur tour? Like you keep talking about Jason Lancaster. When are we going to see him? Here he is. And he rolls up to the golden tooth. His intro music is The Raines of Castamere. chill vibes and

any shows up with a lion and a cage just remarkable wonderful absolute nonsense tomfoolery from Jason Lannister here

the Raines of Castor it's possible that people don't know the Raines of Castamare is about Tywin Lannister breaking

House Rain House Rain. That hasn't happened yet House Rain still exists shout out Marty Rain, one member of the hapless Pussy Posse that helps start a riot this episode. But, you know, the fact that it's like a Lannister, a Lannister cue makes sense because it is eventually about a Lannister. Humphrey Lepard and his 500 fighting men at the Golden Tooth meet Jason Lannister, a lion. And I believe it is 8,000 men that he's taking up to the Riverlands.

incredible. What is your favorite memory of Jason Lanister in season one of House of the Dragon? Thailand Lanister's twin, who we met a couple times in season one. It's a race between a few different ones.

One of my top contenders is the one that you picked, so I'll leave that one for you. I do think that's the winner, but I'll... You can have it. Your COVID's way worse than mine. Take it. You can have it. That's from episode five from season one. So I'll throw out like an

an episode, we meet him in episode three, of course, during the hunt. And just that initial moment where he's just like all like the bravado and the cockiness, the arrogance, like, I can buy, I don't have a dragon, but like I can build you on and here's this honey wine and oh, but oh, da, blah, gives Vserras his golden on Dixpeer. I just get such a kick out of the moment when he goes up to Vassaris and it's like, what I offer you, the crowd and your daughter is strength and Vassar. This is a stretch where he just is like getting increasingly annihilated.

And he hates Jason Lannister. Do you think that House Targaryen wants for strength? And then Jason says, if someone offered you more dragons, would you not take them? And Vassaris says, do you have dragons to offer? It's the way. So that's iconic. It's the way that Patty in that moment as Viseris is smiling, the most poison drippy smile. do you have dragons to offer?

Like, it's just, he's like, I hate you so much. Yeah, the one from Rainier's wedding banquet that Mal alluded to is when he walks up to the table, he's looking for Allison. Allison has yet to make her dramatic arrival in her green dress. And so he's like, and I, you know, regrets I have a few in my life. And I will say, I regret suggesting that maybe John, Jefferson Hall was someone we could possibly be cast in the show. Let's just forget I ever said that. Because rewatching him as Jason in like these season one moments and contrasting that with his Thailand appearance, it's just like he's doing such a good job embodying two very different people. But his posture at Renera's wedding banquet in season one, when he's just sort of like standing so he's got like sort of one hip out.

And he's like, because he's like, I've been sitting on this zinger and I can't wait to deliver it. And he's like, this is why men wage war, because women would never be ready for the battle on time. And Reneer is just like, I hate you. Saris is like, I hate you. Your pleasure is always, your presence is always such a pleasure, Lord Jason. Oh, my God. Go sit down. Anyway, Jason Linister is here with his slightly longer wig than Thailand Lanister, and that's how you can tell the difference in the two.

Do you think knowing that her ancestors brought literal caged lions and. into battle had anything to do with Circe's really like really strong yearning for an elephant from Golding Company. She was so disappointed. What's my elephant? So disappointed. What's more embarrassing? Jason Lindister posturing about needing a dragon or the little abs that have been molded on to his breastplate that he is wearing into battle. The armor is astonishing. It's wild stuff. I think my actually favorite little touch is that he seemed really unable to like comfortably sit his horse. That's just like a little thing that kind of tells you.

I think this is a Jefferson Hall choice. I feel like Jason Lannister is unable to like stand like a normal human being stance. Like he's always just kind of trying to like angle his body on a way. Anyway, a fantastic performance. I completely agree. 8,000 men, 1,000, 7,000 archers and men-in-arms. That's what he's packing on his way to the Riverlands. Damon can't even get the Riverlords to, like, agree on a time to meet.

You know what I mean? Like, it's just shambles in the Riverlands, and here comes the Lanister Forest that we've been hearing about all season. A reminder of the state of play, right? So, chaos in the Riverlands. Jane Aaron not all that impressed with the Dragons that Renier is supplied, so is she going to supply any ice in the veil? It kind of seems like she's ready to send these kids and they're painfully small dragons packing. Like that's, I don't know that Jane's going to make good on that deal. Who is to say, genuinely? Craig Stark's, couple of thou,

graybeards on the March South with passage through the twins, thanks to Jace. And everything is converging in the Riverlands where everything is just totally fine things. How are you? We're fine here. How are you? What do you make of Jason sort of overplaying his hand here asking Amen for Begar? So from the Jason Lanister perspective, I made almost nothing of it just because it felt like the kind of thing that this completely arrogant idiot would say without thinking about the consequences of like how he might offend a person of consequence and a person in a position of power. Like power that tracked perfectly for me.

I guess the one thing from the Jason side is just like, obviously he's relying on Thailand, his twin and his seat on the council to broker this arrangement and like putting more stock in that than any weight in like the insult or how this might be perceived. you know, Jason Lannister, the older twin, is the Lord of Castorly Rock. And so it is his, it is his want to get whatever he believes he deserves on his time. He's rich. He thinks he's not shit.

Like, that all just felt right to me based on our limited time with him. Amon's reception was the fascinating part. The crumbling of the paper. Not just like, who does this guy think? he is, but actual rage. This sends him into a sequence where he is circling the high council table, like a shark. Like, he's prey, or he's the predator and everyone else is his prey. The way that he, like, stops only long enough to perch, right, like, so that he can kind of hover

above whoever he's trying to, like, intimidate or direct in a given moment. you know, I am the Prince Regent, not a dog to be called to heal. We've talked about the start of the season, but that was exactly how Egon referred to his brother at the beginning of the season. My brother at least knows his place. He's as loyal as a hound. I can set him in his dragon on my foes at will. And so, Amon resents, he, on the one hand, I think, prides himself on being considered the best dragon rider, the fiercest dragon rider, the best sword. But he resents only being seen as a tool and a weapon that other people can wield and deploy. Because he wants to also be seen as what he believes he is, which is the best leader, the person who is most adept to make the right decision, all of which, once again, is just Damon. He's got the shiniest hair.

And what do you think you're really able to do? And why don't other people think you can do the other part of it well? He's like, my hair is shiny. I've studied history and philosophy. And philosophy, Joe. Like he thought this feels like the thing he believed he was graduating out of.

Right. Only being the summoned sword. Yeah. And I mean, similarly, if you think about it, like Kristen Cole at Rick's Rest, you know, it was their plan, but it's like,

sound the trumpet to call him into action and he doesn't go then, right? Because he's like, oh, here's A-GON. But he's like, I'm not gonna heed the call here in this very moment because I get to decide when my best friend old lady dragon and I go into battle, not you, Kristen Cole.

So this is a section we're calling Amen and Nobody. We'll be centering these sections on sort of people in their coalitions. We just talked about Jason and his line. This is Aeman and Nobody, which is sort of his goal by the end of when all is said and done here. He says, as you say, he says this thing, I'm the Prince Regent on a dog to be called to he'll tell your brother if he does not deliver his host to Heron Hall with haste, Damon's dragons will become the least of his worries.

This is so close to what he saw Boris Barathean say when Luke showed up to Storm's End at the end of last season. Boros said, and tell your mother that the Lord of Storm's End is not some dog that she can whistle up at knee to set against her foes. And it got me thinking about this idea of Amon sort of like putting on the posture of leadership that he has watched. other older people. Because like Agon, he was never actually trained for this. He is sort of self-taught in many ways, but no one is ever like, this is how you lead. Right. So, but unlike Egon who's like, well, then I'll just show up and do whatever.

He's like, I will just study other, oh, self-teach. And I will copy paste my demeanor from other people. And so, like, you've got that boros Barathean impression. I would say he's doing his best demon impression later when he says, my uncle's a challenge. I welcome if he dares face me. or that like shark circling looming predator behavior feels like classic Damon to me. And then you and I were talking about on Talk to Thrones about how Lick Spittles is used. Like we heard him use it earlier when he was speaking Valerian in the small council meeting to Agon and embarrassing him.

And we had fun with that because we're all like, what's Valerian for Lick Spittle? That's really fun. He uses it again here. We hear it in the Vassar's flashback. And I thought that that was a bug, but maybe it's a feature because maybe we're just like high linen. That's a phrase that Viseris like to use whores and licksbittles. And here we have Amund saying, I have little patience for the self-important Lord Laris, even less for flatterers and licksbittles.

So maybe like that double licksbiddle in this episode, which stuck out to me is maybe an intentional, like, here are the ways that Amon is cloaking himself in his dad's behavior, his uncle's behavior, Boris Barathian's behavior to sort of like, is this how I lead? I don't know. What is, can we bring my grandfather back? that would be nice. So the Vesaris Licksbittal call it is a great one. I love the Boris observation too because I like to think of Amon's as a character who is thoughtful,

like what you're identifying about his kind of studious nature to prepare himself to write himself, to position himself to say to Kristen, like, in his eye. But also that means you're observant. Like, he pays attention in a way that Egon couldn't be bothered to, et cetera. What's interesting about the Amund we're seeing in this recent stretch, this episode, certainly last episode, he's making bad decisions. Shutting the Gates was a bad decision. Casting out people who, like he says to Laris later in the episode that he doesn't, you know,

he can't abide Licks Piddles. but everybody who's questioning him most actively in this scene, he's sending away. So what is it? Do you want people who are actually going to give you honest counsel, or do you not want your decisions question? Modeling yourself consciously or otherwise after Poros Barathean is insane. It's crazy. Like you watch that dipshit stand by and mishandle everything leading to the battle above Shipbreakers Bay. And the other comp that was on my mind, in part because of the dog language,

I think in part because of the question of what you do once you finally have power. Like, how is... Amund is a character we think has, like, observational tendencies and intellect and ability and patience. And even, like, we talked about at the beginning of the season, what was one of the differences between him and Damon? He was able to express remorse about Luke to Sylvie, Damon. Hasn't expressed remorse or contrition, et cetera.

But things are shifting. Like, Amid is feeling... We talked last week about whether Damon felt too, like, one note in a way that we don't expect out of Damon in that episode, right? And I think we've moved now out of that. And this is, I think, kind of like Amon's period of being a little bit more like, oh, no, you're just the bad guy. But what do we have to hold on to then?

It's like the things that drove him there, which is why I really like the Allison Amund moment, which we'll get to. But that Tyrion's description of Joffrey, it's hard to put a leash on a dog once you put a crown on its head. Like, that's what we're watching with Amund right now. He wanted the power. He thought he would be best suited to it. But he isn't.

Like, he isn't. Yeah, and it's harder to, I mean, that's sort of the, like, when we get back to Alice Damon, she's like, you're constantly trying to leave. Why don't you stay and try to rule? Ruling is different than conquering. Ruling is harder. And, uh, yeah. Sorry, I got distracted by another Hamilton quote. We'll get back to a Hamilton reference later.

I only need one. I thought you were to quote Danny. I will do what Queens do. I will rule. Well, Danny or Buffy or Hamilton. My reference is abound. But this idea of like fighting is one thing. Ruling is harder.

And like Aman and Damon are consummate warriors and generals, but are they rulers? No. And Aiman going from like this spooky. shitty, but we feel sympathy for him sort of underdog figure, even after he killed Luke, to a character I don't really want to spend much time with, honestly. But that's just a for now, to your point, like, I think that's just a for now circumstance. But like, so let's get through his firing, right? Okay, so he fires, well, he sends Tyler Lannister away because Thailand,

an important mission for Chris Ryan and Chris Ryan. Yeah. We're bringing the triarchy back. And a reminder for people who are listening who don't like Chris, think about the triarchy at all times. The triarchy are forces from Mir, Lees, and Tyroche, and the Battle of Stepstones that you remember from season one was Damon and Corleys and Lainor and C. Smoke. And maybe Rainies, who's to say, trying to keep them from getting a toll hold on islands

too close to Westeros. So the triarchy have no reason to think favorably of Team Black, right? Because it's Damon and Corleys who beat the trierkey back. in season one. So, Amid is right. And I think Otto, Otto mentioned the triarchy earlier as well.

Like, they're right to be like, okay, here's a, our Navy, it's far away, but here's the triarchy right here. So they're right to be thinking about that.

But then the other characters are also right to be like, um, these are pirates, literal pirates? Do we want to make allies with literal pirates? I'm not sure. That's the move. We also get a red crack in,

mention our like second or third of the season. House Great Joy, we await your arrival. Anything else you would say about Thailand, the trierky or anything that happens here? We'll talk about, on the red crack in front, obviously I want to talk about the Iron Rod marriage suggestion, but we'll hit that when we get to Allison. So I think I'm good on the triarchy. Unlike Chris, I think I'm good on the triarchy. What do you want to say about what happens to Kristen Cole here?

I really liked this Kristen episode. Yeah. I really did. That look that passes between Kristen and Allison in the courtyard in the Gawain scene like shattered me. I was really affected by it in a way that kind of shocked me.

But here in this council scene, Kristen is just on the opposite side of the argument from where he was just a couple weeks ago, which is fascinating because if we're thinking again about this as like an episode where we were watching characters confront their own perspective or that perspective slightly evolve, then this actually feels like an important one for Kristen

because he was the one a couple weeks ago, like, Speed is my ally, and Allison was like so impatient to ride with so few men, so like to be destroyed by the first stronghold you meet, a bold scheme indeed. And what was Christian's response to that? Well, the gods favor the bold. They did not favor Sir Arach.

Still a great comeback from Allison there. That was wild, and she was right. And now he's the one who's like, please do not send me to Heron Hall. I do not have the man. I loved. We need time. We need to heal. Like we see the soldiers walking behind Allison's in the Gwain's scene and they just have like head wounds still and they're about to march out back to war.

Gawain's face is still, it almost looks. It's not sooty. It's bruised. But it almost looks like he still has soot on his face from Roch's rest. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved the little moment too where. because in episode five, we talked a lot about how, like, Kristen couldn't make eye contact with people.

He was like, I couldn't say, even though he could. He just chose not to. But this was, like, a tiny step forward in terms of him challenging what Amund is saying and what Kristen knows is wrong. And even just a little moment where he was like, we lost a lot of men, as you well know, like, the indictment that was smuggled into that, as you well know. now none of that to be clear absolves Kristen of his role in any of this but that's true for every character who's made a series of mistakes and I think that like that it's too late idea feels like one of the core the like theses of the season and so like I'm interested in continuing to track whether which characters have moments where like does it have to be like does it have to be you know and even like with Allison later when she's She says, I'm sorry. I like to egg on. I was like, does she think maybe it doesn't have to be too late for her and egg on?

How interesting, you know? So it was interesting stuff from Chris Ryan's favorite character, Kristen Cole. I love that you brought that up because there's this one line that really stuck out to me when, when Alicent says goodbye to Gwain in the courtyard, right? And he says, you get on with it, don't you, when there isn't any choice? Which feels, he's talking about what it was like to grow up eight years old and motherless without his father or his sister, etc. He says, you get on with it, don't you, when there is any choice? But it also just feels very much like you get back on your horse still sporting the bruises from the last battle when you're called to do battle again. You know, we already had a battle episode this season.

and I survived it. You're going to send me into another battle episode. Are you kidding me? That's sort of what's going on going high tower. The last thing I wanted to say about Kristen in case I forget later when we talk about the Amund's Laris hand scene is just how sad it is that Kristen is riding off with his hand of the king chain and everybody back at the Red Keep is like, who should be hand now? Kristen is just like,

it's right it off. And regalia as again, like quite. I still have all this jewelry. Quite pathetic and sad. Okay. Allison Hightower. So we've sent Thailand on an errand. Kristen off to get fucked in the Riverlands, essentially.

And Allison Hightower, who refuses to be political chattel, right? You want to talk about Jasper's marriage offer here? I despise this guy. It's the worst. Kristen Cole is actually no longer the worst person Westeros. I actually think it's Jasper. It's a tough call between Ironrod and Alfred and Sir Alfred.

Oh. Like who has said the most outrageous things in council meetings this season? We were spared Alfred this episode. Yeah. Yeah. But Ironrod just being like, you know, if the Red Cracken doesn't like come of his own accord, we could just like, we could attempt it with some honey. How about to offer a marriage to the Dowager Queen?

And she's just like, fuck off? She's like, remember when I said I would send you to the wall? I will send you to the wall. So this, of course, made us... This is like appalling. Yeah. This made us think of Circe. Circe and Loris in the Game of Thrones TV show,

Tywin says it's one of the best scenes, genuinely of all time. And like, Sear was telling us that he recently has, like, come across some, like, Tywin Lannister edits. And he's like, hey, was Tywin Lanister a really great character? And we're like, yes. he was the best. But some of that like Tywin, Tyrion, Circe shit from like seasons three and four,

stuff like that is so good. But when he says, you'll marry Sir Loris to Circe, where after Circe was like in the middle of gloating about them marrying Tyrionov. And she says, I'm Queen Regent, not some brood mare. And then she says, father, don't make me do it again.

Please. I always felt so, I mean, Lena He was always so good at Circe. But I always felt so much for Sorsi in that moment. It was just sort of like, I was already chattel, a political pawn. You made me marry Robert Barathean. Really sucked for me. I worked my way up the corporate ladder to basically like quasi-running things.

And now you're just putting you right back down at the bottom because of my gender. That's what happens to me. In a Storm of Swords, Taiwan has a bunch of ideas. ideas about who's her sister to marry. There's just like a ton of people. One of them is Baylon Greyjoy. You know, so the Greyjoy is, or Theon Greyjoy. He's like, Baylon, Theon?

I don't know. One of those. It doesn't matter. Oh, man. I think that's so interesting. And also, like, especially, I think, coupled with the nature of, like, how, I mean, we'll get to all of the particulars of the Aymand Allison scene, but the specifically kind of, like, gendered nature of the, I mean,

I'm sure you'll be much pleased to return to more domestic pursuits. Just in general for Allison, like, she made her play to be regent, and they denied her. And then what comes after that? You're a bargaining chip to be married off to a house that can help us gain strength. And so, of course, yet another thing there I think also reminds us of and crucially I think reminds Allison of her own history and of Reneira.

And like I was thinking a lot then about season one episode four because that's both where Reneera and Damon have like those really interesting conversations about marriage. You know, Damon saying marriage is only a political arrangement

once you're wed you can do as you like and Reneer says for men, marriage might be a political arrangement for women. It is like to be a death sentence. And there's that scene, you know, in that episode where Allison and Reneira are sitting on the bench, you know, and kind of like reconnecting. And it's a real, like, the grass is always greener thing because Reneer found the, like,

marriage toward deplorable and doesn't like being, like, trotted out like a piece of meat. And Allison's like, you get to choose. Like, you get to choose. You know, that's not something that she's ever gotten to do. And so like to want to have done all this and made it through all this and lived her life, sometimes through pure belief, sometimes it's the, that cloak of righteousness that Reneira calls her out on on the first season, but believing the duty was the guide. And like to get to this point and then just say, do it again now.

Right. We have to think about Rene's talking about her building a window in a prison and like that Allison mistook that window for a view, like that window for her being outside. Like that shot of Allison in the hallway in silhouette with these bars around her. And because of the way that they've done the design on Kings Landing with the crosshatching on the windows, like people often look like they're inside of cages inside of Kings Landing whenever they're standing in front of a window or something like that. But you can compare that shot of her in the dark. with bars around her to Reneira

on the let the balcony ledge of of Dragonstone with the wide open horizon in front of her. It's a very similar sort of composition, but it's just sort of like Reneira has so much in front of her. And yet what is also still true

of Reneira is that there are limitations of that because she's standing there in front of that wide open horizon thinking about all the ways in which she feels like she's not allowed to do the things that Damon's allowed to do. And that's just also true. And like, so Damon will get into like Reneira and her gender expression a bit later. But that conversation with Damon of like marriage is a political act and then you can do whatever you want.

She's like, yeah, for dudes. Well, what did Reneer do actually? She fucked Harwin's wrong because she wanted to. And if she had been a king and done that, it wouldn't have mattered. Which is what she said to Vassaris. Yeah, it wouldn't have mattered at all. If I were a guy, I could do this. We're seeing all these, you know, all these targeting bastards all across the, you know,

and Chris brought this up. We talked about this little bit when Allison was taking the moon tea. But yeah, just this idea of like any time that Reneer has tried to do what the guys would do, there are just inherent things in place, be they biological or otherwise, that are just sort of, you know, when she's lactating at the small council table, there's just like stuff in place

that's putting her in a cage, even if the bars in her cage are much bigger than the bars on Allison's cage. Let's get to that. So Aben fires his mom from a position that, to be clear, she created for herself. There is no actual title.

She does have her own little ball that she got made. I would be so much proud of Allison for the fact that she just like made up her own job on a small council if she hadn't felt like she had to edge Reneer out in order to do so. It's complicated. I can't say

like yes, girl boss your way at the top when Alice is doing this other shit. But let's hear sort of the exact language of this exchange, please Steve. You serve the realm well. But a time of need. That need is ended.

Do you are no longer obliged? It's not a matter of obligation. This council has need of a tempering voice. But more than enough of those if you ask me. You have the impelior. impetuousness of youth and its arrogance. Neither avoid us to be desired again. I amiss you of your seat, such as it was.

Sure you'll be much pleased to return to more domestic pursuits. Dignities of your childhood not yet sufficiently been avenged. You have the gratitude of the crown. You, a person three years younger than me, have the impetuousness of youth. I love that this closes with you, the gratitude of the crown, which is so, like I'm not even your son in this moment. I'm the crown, you know? And, you know, we've heard Reneira say, like, I am the crown.

Like, that is, that is... Fuck your sentiments and your oranges. I am the crown. This is just so well done and also just so horrible to watch. So fucking condescending and terrible. And then Allison just saying the exact truthful thing at the exact wrong time as her as is her want. Did you draw a comparison between her sort of grabbing Aeman's face and Reynese sort of grabbing

at Allen's face? I couldn't think of like a thematic reason why that would be a cop. But I just like, it's just something I would, I have never done. Touched a person's face? No, I've touched a person's face, but not like grabbed at their face without like, you know. Cup to cheek in a very intense emotional moment of. Like, there are like. There are times to do that.

And I would just say a business meeting where I'm getting fired by my own kid is not one of them. Nor necessarily is like to confronting your husband's bastard on the docks. I'm just not touching people's faces like that. It's just not a move for me. I did not, I did not draw a parallel between those though that's interesting. I just, to me, this was like, I think we're seeing. seeing, you know, obviously we're going to talk about the conversation about Darren that Allison and Gawain have, which was incredible. He plays the loot, Mallory, he plays the loot.

So I just, I just, I need Darren. I need Darren in the story now. Allison is confronting who her other sons are and her role in that. And there were these moments of like, you know, her holding Egon's hand as he heals and saying, I'm sorry, or reaching out and cupping Amon's face. Like, what's interesting about all of that to me is like with Allison, there are always these dualities, right? Because like, on the one hand, I took the cupping of the face as just like a motherly, like, a show of affection and closeness that Amon has longed for and not got. But like it's coming too late. If I were Amund, I would say like, do you want me to feel okay? Do you want to know how I'm processing my childhood?

Are you just trying to save your job? Why is this the moment we're having this conversation? Totally. If you're egg on and you can, and through your fog of burns and broken bones and poppy milk, you can tell or know that she's telling you she's sorry and feel or holding your hand. And I'm sure there's a part of you that is like deeply touched. And that's all he's wanted to, right? Do you love me, mother?

But like did that have to come after he was nearly killed by Dragonfire? So all of that is fascinating. I thought like, okay, I am, I'm going to blame COVID-Brain for not remembering if this was on the inside the episode or how the dragons built. But it was in one of them, I think. And it had to be in one of them. I believe Condal said, like, he was basically like this isn't really personal for Aymond. He's like doing it because Allison, he actually doesn't think this is like a job.

Like there's nothing. I'm like very badly paraphrasing. That was the inside the episode. The comment from the inside the episode. And I was like, okay, I wanted to ask you about that, about that line that I can't remember properly quote because I'm barely hanging on to this mortal coil. because I was like really struck by that. That was so not my read on it. And then, but I mean, obviously that doesn't,

who are we to argue with the showrunner. I just, no, I disagree. I disagree, actually. I think sometimes Condal and Sarah Hess and plenty of other showrunners say things where I'm like, that's just not at all. You know, I don't fully believe in death of the author, but I'm just sort of like, I don't think that makes sense for my understanding of who Aymond is.

And like, I don't, I choose, there, it is person. Of course it is. How could it not be? And I think what's it, well, because the story that we're watching with Aymand, and they also, everybody has said as much about like what happened with Rook's dress is like the commentary and inside episode about that was like, don't fuck over Aymond Targary. Don't laugh at that be the lesson. Yeah.

And so we have seen Luke, Agon, Alicent, obviously in a less like violent and morally perilous way, but in an emotional and spiritual, this is like an emotional, mental spiritual attack, right? Like, this is an attack on her sense of purpose. That's horrible too. That's more insidious in some ways. And so the fact that he walked into that council meeting

at the beginning of the season, and she said, you don't have a seat here. It's just impossible, I think, to not view this as his revenge for that. But what that did then make me think of was like, if that's in part true, I don't think we can separate

what Aiman thinks Allison has done to him from what he is doing to her. It feels impossible to me. But if he also, in addition to that, let's say, is like, what do you do here exactly? Which I think would be, like, in a way that's almost more galling. If it's just a quest for petty vengeance,

then it's personal. But if he doesn't think she has anything to contribute right now, he's like, yeah, you did it, you helped? Yeah, you did it. you helped dad, you helped that guy, and you did a great job. I don't need you. No more tempering voices. We have enough of those. Like for Allison, that would almost be more of a crisis. Like, well, really, it's not just that my son is mad at me. It's like, he doesn't think I can help. What am I going to do now? Right? Like, what happens? We think back to an eye for an eye,

Driftmark, episode seven, season one. What have I done, but what was expected of me? Forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flout it all to do as you please to era. Where's duty? Where is sacrifice? This is how Allison has seen her life. What does she say to Otto in the season one under her pretty fun? Under her pretty. You always skip the pretty, the pretty part. I don't see. I don't say it's. I feel like it's important on Laris's behalf. What did, what did she say to Otto in the in the penultimate episode of season one when he was like, if that's true, then I made you the queen of the seven kingdoms, would you have desired it otherwise? How could I know? And so she's like confronting basically the truth and lies.

that have to find her entire life? And for the people, like a person that her father in that season one episode nine conversation, Renira in season one, episode seven, her dearest friend, her son, amen. Like, could there be people in the world who could hurt you more by saying these things to you? And that's part of why I'm really excited to talk about the Gawain scene because, like, I had this fascinating response where my heart was broken for Allison, and I felt really proud of her for asking these questions finally, like really proud of her. And then also you can't, you of course kind of can't let go of the like, well, what is your own culpability and having gotten here?

But that's like what makes the show so interesting and the character is so interesting. And we were talking about exactly that last week, I think it was where we were just talking about how like inside of a scene you could feel empathy. Yeah, similar to what we were just talking about. It's why Circe was one of my favorite characters because like the characters where you have, where they have to work for you to feel empathy for them. and then you do? I think that's one of the most profound things that fiction can do, right? Fiction is an empathy machine.

And so to engender empathy in you for characters who do things that you wildly disagree with, but you're like, at the core, there's something in you that is identifiable in human, and I have felt it in me, and I have made different choices, but I've felt that in me. And so then all of a sudden you can see the world

from their point of you. And that's a fascinating that's like why we like stories, why we are people, or stuff like that. For Allison specifically,

like this confrontation with Amon very specifically is a nice payoff for a couple lines we've noted throughout the season where she's like, well, you know what Amon is or somehow

Amon became this way. Somehow Palpatine somehow I raised an absolute sociopath. Who knows how that happened? And to your point about these like physical touch moments, all the moments in which she has deprived them of physical touch, again, I feel empathy for her because she was like teenage bride and a teenage mom and like did not want these kids and like all this sort of stuff like that. So like I can feel empathy for her. But like if we think about Agon crying and her walking in and then just sort of walking right back out because she doesn't

want to deal with it, perhaps if she had like hooked him then, she wouldn't have to like, like hold his melting hands later and say, I'm sorry, you know. And that's when it is, as she said to Rainira in the sept, too late. It's too late. Totally.

Yeah. Like, I was thinking of Amen saying to Kristen in the season two premiere, she blames me for starting this war after she plotted with my father's counsel to usurp his throne. And that's true. It is. Like Allison sat at that at the Green Council.

table and was like you guys were doing this without me. But she still pushed because of a misinterpretation or not for Egon to take over to push Renera aside. Yes, she tried to save her life, but everybody knew what was going to happen after that. Did Amund kill Luke? He did. Did he do that because of his own foolish hubris? He did. Are all of these characters to blame? They are. But from his perspective, he's like, she is casting me as the instigator and the villain. Was there a moment? Like, we talked about this at the beginning of the season, how we were interested in the omission of the fire and blood. Like, that scene where Allison and Otto, when Amy McGrath, like, what, how could you have been, like, you only lost one eye.

How could you have been so blind? Yeah. And I think part of why. I really wish we had, whether it was that version or something else, just seen that immediate response is because I really wonder if Amand was right away like, okay, let's go, like, Armour's on, or if there was an opportunity, like, a moment for his mother to say, not like full auto, oh, the caprice of youth, but like, let me give you a hug. This sounds like really bad.

Let's figure it out. It's going to be okay. Like, I'm on your side. They don't feel it. They never, this is, again, like, the enemy within. right? The coalition. The people who are nominally on the same team never feel like anyone's on their side. Like how can you, nobody, it's again, like I quoted this last week, I think, but the Jora

Danny idea, like nobody can survive in this world without help. Like, the people who are most inclined to say, I'm good, I don't need anything, I need nothing. Damon. Yeah. Amin. Like, they need help just like everybody else. All the characters do, but none of them feel like they have it. This is like, this story's deeply, deeply tragic.

In all of Kings Landing, is there no one to take my mind? side that Allison to Laris line that we like to talk about, right? And it's, and it is what all these other characters that we'll go on to talk about Laris and Masaria and Alice are offering to these people who are floundering

where it's just sort of like Laris is like, they're going to laugh at you. Not me. I'm here and I get it. Let us talk about, I've labeled this section of the King's Landing conspiracy, but I might want to change it to like Masaria's angels, right?

We've got Diana, Alinda in absentia, and Sylvie as this like trifecta of agents working for Masaria to spread misinformation. And, uh, oh, they're sort of like, guyless recipient of their machinations. Roth's a little thin. I loved this. He's like, my bowl of brown. There's not a brown on my bowl of brown. Like, what is this? I loved this so much.

I loved that they're using. Sylvie for this. We did get, I had a back and forth with one of our listeners over email that they were sort of pushing back on this idea that we brought up on Talk to Thrones about like Sylvie feeling at all like jilted by Aman, but I don't think jilted is at all the concept. This is a very cordial exchange of, uh, uh, ideas that I had with our listener, but like I don't think jilted is at all what we were like going for. It's almost like, because I don't think Sylvie actually like cares about Aamond at the end of the day, really. Um, I think it was more like there is a possibility for like an like affronted, right?

Like even if you're, even if it's just a job and you're not thinking about like something like that emotionally, like having worked retail, I can still be pissed at a customer who disrespects me. You know what I mean? Even if I don't know them or care about them or something like that. But then there's also this idea that like Sylvie was like kind of trying in her like what's good for the small folk way to guide and. teach Aiman. No one was teaching Aymie how to be a ruler except for Sylvie. Sylvie's like, here's what's true about princes. When they threw tantrums, we suffer. And what is the first thing that Aymond does when he gets into power? He locks the gates and people are suffering. And so if she's mad about anything, that certainly could be on the list. But whether or not Sylvie is

personally invested in what Ayn specifically has done, she is like, pro, let's get these people fed and like, fuck what's going on in Kingslanding for sure. Yeah. And she, and she, She is on team Missaria here. Yeah. I still don't think it's like, I guess they don't strike me as like usually exclusive circumstances that, you know, I think we agree that it seems probable, maybe even absolutely true. How could something like this have happened so quickly otherwise that she was in Masaria's employee already previously before Amund, that that would be part of this. network that you gain information, proximity to powerful people, et cetera. But I think, like, if we think about our glimpses of relationships between people, like, in positions of power

and a sex worker on the show, the number one example that we have so far that we spent the most time with his Missaria and Damon. Oh. That's so funny. I was thinking about Tyrion and Shea. But you were talking about this show. In half of the dragon. And so that's why I say they don't feel mutually exclusive because I think whatever independent agenda Sylvie has or like mission and quest that she as part of this network are on and the dominance of the emphasis on the small focus

as a guiding principle, that all feels true. I don't think that means she couldn't have been like, wow, this guy really made me feel like shit. just like Masaria felt about Damon. And I think that feels even truer for me because of the correlaries between the Damon and Amin storylines. And like it's almost something we're like maybe meant to be pinging in some respect.

Like the way that the dressing down that Masaria gave Damon when he failed her and then the number of things that we have heard her say to him subsequently, like the way we tracked that over time or then about him to other people. I don't think you could say like, Damon didn't leave an impression on Masaria. Now, I'm not saying it's the same with Sylvan and Amon, but I don't think it's like a, I don't think it's necessarily a bad read that she would also be carrying some personal, um, slight.

Jilted, I don't think, like you said either of us use that word or put it that way, but I think she, I think people can have their mission and also feel a certain type of way. Why not both? You have two minds, two hearts about it? Conflict inside of the human heart? What's going on? Okay, listen. Olf says this thing about Vassaris

that I just like keep coming back to, right? Where he said, King Vassaris loved his feast and wine, but never well as small folk went without. And this is just such an interesting, like we further burnishing of Vassaris's legacy, which we've seen people in all levels of power do throughout this season. After his death, we're just remembering Vassaris as this great, generous king.

I can't remember. I was racking my brains. And I could not remember my COVID riddled brain. And I could not remember a single moment in season one where I really felt like, Vassaris, champion of the people. You know what I mean? Like, real champion of the people guy. Like, Jeharis and Alessane, yes. Vassaris, I don't think he was bad.

I don't think he would have locked the gates on them. I don't think this, that, or the other thing. But like, I don't think he was ever like, what's the infrastructure like down in Fleebottle? you know, like so... Yeah, I mean, he says, like, in the small council meeting at the beginning of season one when they're talking about the demon

and his, like, mass... Castration. Yeah, castration and limb removal with the gold cloaks. And, you know, he says, Kingslanding has been in decline since my grandmother passed. In the end, this new city watch

might be a good thing as grandmother. Of course, the recently mentioned good queen Alessain. So, like, he almost owns the fact that he does nothing for the people and has just been letting the city that they live in steadily crumble. And the attempt to bring order through the gold cloaks is not for them. It's to keep Damon busy and give him something to do. So I think if anything, we maybe have like the picture we have is the opposite. Exactly.

So the fact that like Olf is saying this, King of Sartis loved his season why, but never while his small folk went without. We did definitely, you know, we saw Vassaris hold attorney, hold a hunt. Like, we saw him, you know, a wedding banquet. Like, he certainly was a host of events in season one. But as we talked about in Talk to Thrones, this idea of, like, Vesaris as a party king, which is how he's depicted a bit in Fire and Blood. And certainly, like, if you look at the illustration in Fire and Blood, where he's just sort of like this jovial round man with a goblin on the throne, that's just not at all who we think and we think of Viseris.

It just goes to show a couple things, like, once again, that, like, this generous read that Vassaris is getting that Reneira certainly feels like she's not getting on any of her actions. And then, like, this who wrote Fire and Blood and, like, who came up with this idea of Vassaris's jovial party king? And why did no one tell him about his Lego habit and, like, all the sort of stuff like that? Like, these are the ongoing questions we have about the unreliable narration and depiction inside of the book, Fire and Blood. So, yeah. Yeah. And also, like, you know, Otto couldn't wait to break out the Vassar's the peaceful moniker and start, like, printing the legend. And, you know, I think also there's the, there's the Ulf specific element of this, like, because we, you know, you observed when we heard him make the, yeah, bail on the braves bastard boast a couple episodes ago that he was like, couldn't have been quicker to take the on ramp into the connection to sharing his story, right? So like anything where he's like, I can say something and like pretend I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah. My brother. My brother would never have done this. Yeah. It had that as well. 100%. Very enjoyable. Ulf then goes and like spreads the word of discontent in the street, right?

Like, oh, sheep for your dragons and where's the meat in my bowl, a sort of thing? Poor cat cannot even get a moldy cabbage and she weighed at all. day in line. And it is just an absolutely judicious idea from Masari to send fruit and veg et cetera to the commoners under Rainier's banner. This is such a beautiful moment. It looks like a little fleet. It reminded me so much

of Danny arriving from Esos with her like sails with the incorrect number of legs on the dragon Targaryen sigil. But yeah, it looked like a little fleet, a little like Renera fleet coming into the the bay here filled with with groceries for folks um and damon this was great damon targary for the record this is what you should be doing under the banner the uh the black and red banner should bring people their door dash order it should not be atrocities it should be ding dong here's some

stifers not ding dong we're taking your wife and children from you that's that's just my small note for Damon. Yeah, you know, two halves of one hole, uh, ish. Yeah, this was really great. And I, I liked to, you know, seeing what to the discontented rumors or feed, what that plan was going to look like put into action and kind of the phases of it and like how on the one hand, rumors are based in truth because they're like embellishments, right? Like, we're not seeing revels at the Red Keep, actually, but people can believe it. And like you, like you said last week, like, lemons for sword cleaning cabbages. You can't get a cabbage for food, but they've got them to treat wounds, right? And like, what is true, but they might not be fucking partying

all night, but they're not helping. And so it's tantamount to the same thing. And then you turn rumors or feed into actual feed. And when we get to the riot in the streets later, like, the way that we're able to track the progression across episodes from, from like what What did the people say during Jeharis's funeral? A curse on Renera the monstrous. And then we build toward the Maly's procession. Reneer will answer this. And then what do we hear during the riot in this episode?

Long live queen Reneira. I thought you were just like, queen officious. Each she comes. Queen of fishes. I love that. That's a fascinating way to track that progression. We get a riot. as you mentioned, we'll come back to the right.

We've got to do a little Helena's stuff before we get to the right. But Hugh Cuddles a dog. It is not I regret to inform you. She's his dog. Different coloring, different eyes. Same sort of size and mongrel, shabby coat sort of stuff with love and respect. But I do want to let you and anyone who doesn't also listen to trial by content know that Dave Gonzalez has started calling cheese as dogs are crackers and I just think it's

wonderful and should be emulated forever. Good stuff. All right. We're going to come back to the right, but here we are in my favorite part. You're like, isn't your favorite part which stuff? Maybe. But it's got a close competitor in a section I'm calling

Agan and Aman and Allison and Laris. Cripples, bastards and broken things. First, before we get, basically we're going to hit the three people who come to visit Aigon. It's Aman. It's Allison. Is Laris. Before we do that, we should do that second small council meeting, of course, Amon and Laris and Jasper.

And the object humiliation of Laris strong in the hand of the king fake out here, that Laris tries the exact playbooky that worked like a charm on Agon. Easy stuff with Agon. And guess what? Lick Spittle's not invited to the party at Amon's small council. And just the, oh, God, you didn't think I met you, did you? Matthew Needham. If I have to pick an MVP of this episode, it is him.

And he is that full body, that just slight full body inflation. And he's like, oh, my lord, I never expected to order like this. You know, to that, like, absolutely curdling of, like, you and me, we got a problem for life now is what that felt like. that moment felt like to me. Like, he's like, you are toast if I have anything to say about it. Tell me what you felt about all of this and Jasper eating popcorn watching it. I really loved this scene. I was struck to by Amon's.

This is the, like, he seemed really really. petulant in the scene across the entire exchange, he's like pouty and sulky. Like, why don't they blame Reneira? You know, that was really, I thought, striking. He's often so solution-oriented. And here he was just really like stewing in his resentment. And then that resentment just further fuels his meanness, you know? And like, he has been bullied and responded poorly.

And of course, like, now he's becoming. the bully. He's bullying other people. Taylor's all this time. Very sad. Painful to watch. I thought that Laris, before he made the play for the handpin, the way, just like that minute, that beat where he was imploring Aman to take the situation with the small folks seriously was also important. Because with Laris, Chris was kind of asking us about this with Laris, like, well, how much is driven by genuine feeling, how much is driven by agenda. And like, of course, that's what's so interesting about Laris. And like, you know, when he said, this is where we get. And, at that great line, the enemy without may be fought with swords,

that the enemy within is more insidious, but also where he said, like, they still look to you to ensure their well-being. That is the burden of authority. Now, of course, that gives us an Alice echo. Like, that's a very tantalizing Laris. To the burden. To the burden of authority.

Wonderful stuff there. But, like, he's trying not just to work, Eamond. He is trying to help him rule the kingdom. It's both at the same time. It's both. Yeah, exactly. And so that's what I thought just, this was a really short scene actually,

but we kind of got like the whole Laris experience inside of it. So that was really cool. And yeah, like you said, you know, with the hand play, like he made the exact same maneuver with Egon in the first episode. You know, he was. That was your father's hand. Yeah. It worked.

Perfect. By the next episode. Yeah. And what happens here, I thought, you know, the way that we're clocking a couple things at once. One, there's just the intellectual response. I'm not going to be able to control this guy. I'm not going to be able to work him.

I'm not going to be able to maneuver him. He's not going to be my puppet. So that's not going to work for me, right? And that's kind of the rational, logical, how do I further my aims part of Lyrus, which is very tantalizing to watch. And like you said, I love like your description of like the curdled and kind of like the way that he like sunk in on himself and like deflated. Twisted.

When he said, you toad? Like, why? You know, like, there are just, there are ways to crush somebody. And the other thing was he, it was such, like, it was an alley-up, right? Like, he said it, he set Laris up. Oh, it was cruel. Just so he could destroy him. Yeah.

Yeah, it was like a play thing. And I think Laris doesn't, as we will hear him say to Egon, doesn't ever like when people make him feel small. and if it's accidental or it's reflexive, you catch somebody laughing at you, bad enough. But Amon went out of his way to make Laris look like a fool. And that's not something that Laris is going to forget.

Nor should he. Amon, like Damon. Yeah. Does not know anything about diplomacy. And I would suggest both of them call Jace. Jace can help you out. If I were Jays, like I said, like I said,

I would just continue to go around shouting scoreboard at everyone. I would just be, constantly. I would just become like a consultant. A private consultant, earned so much money fixing the problems for these dumb blondes.

Okay. Great idea, honestly. A lot of people leave that small council chamber, that particular small council chamber and go say hi to egg, right? Because Orowel's like,

guess what? He's not going to die. The cabbage leaves have been doing their work. It's great. So Aiman comes in does his best... Stronger than I thought.

Does his best Kristen Cole impression by smoohing a small ball into some soft tissue. This time it's the sticky, goopy chest of his freshly burned brother as he threatens Egan into silence. Egoode is smart enough to play dumb here, right? What do you remember?

Nothing. You challenged Maly's. It was foolish. I remember nothing. Yeah. This is a bargain for his life. Yeah. He's like, so, you know, he's not so milk of the popi-addled

that he can't figure out what he's supposed to say in that moment. Yeah. I mean, the fear, like, with which he greets Amon's arrival, is to absolutely terrified of him. And then obviously later we'll hear him, like, choke out of help me, you know, asking Laris for help. Like, he is obviously desperately afraid because he, he does remember.

He does know what Aymond has done. This is, like, an interesting dynamic because he knows, Aymn knows he knows. The way that he put that, first of all, let me just say the peeling the cabbage off the wound in the running now for the most disgusting thing they've ever done. It was astonishingly gross. But shut out. I respected it. I got to say it.

I mean Lannister voice. I respect that, but it was gnarly. I got to say, Tomlin Carney, who we already were admiring the first half of the season for his, like, charisma, you know, all this brat prince, brat king sort of thing that he was doing. The moaning and whimpering game on him is just like, and the quivering. It's like unbelievable. It's so good. It's, he's really been sensational. and like the tears, the emotion and the Laris scene.

Obviously, some of that is the pain of yearning for the milk of the poppy, but most of it is like the response to what Laris is saying. Like, you're not going to be the same. It was heartbreaking. Amon putting the small ball, not just a precedent in the pain he's causing him, but... What does it mean to you? What does it mean to you? I took it as just a taunt, right?

Like, a taunt and a declaration. I literally hold the symbol of your power. in my hand. And I don't even need it. I don't even need it. I can leave it here with you. And you can hold it in your sick bed and you're not going to have the strength to move it or give it back to me or do anything else with it. Like you used to sit there and spin that around like a dip shit. And I'm here to push it into the burns that I gave you to remind you that I'm better than you and that I won. Do you think it was vicious? Of course it's vicious. Do you think there's a total act of torment? Do you think there's any way in which this is the end of the small balls at the small council?

Because they don't use, like, when we get to Game of Thrones times, there are no balls there. So is this the moment when we stop using, I mean, he's like fired half the small council. And he's like, I don't even need this ball that belongs to the king, I don't fucking need it. Who cares? Is he just like we're done with balls? You know, I hadn't confronted this possibility until right now. I think you might be onto something, but I have to say, I don't know that I'm ready to say goodbye to the small balls. when we first saw them, we were like, what are these?

But they've been an endless source of delight. I agree. RIPBs. We miss you still. All right. Even also counsels Orwell to make sure that AGO is out of commission for a long, long, long time, which serves two purposes. One, it's like, make sure the king doesn't recover quickly or maybe at all, right? Like, that's the implication there.

Also, it keeps Orwell occupied, and that's another person out of the small council room, right? like if Orwell is constantly tending to Egon. And then there were fucking two. Jasper and Laris. And that's who's left in that room until I guess if Otto comes back. You know, so it's like, it's an efficient move from Eamon. Allison comes in. Orwell gets to do some nice exposition about what's going on the reach.

Orwell is like round the clock keeping the king along but also got his finger on the pulse. of the movements over the reach. Really could run for a while. Ever since I was like, fuck that guy. Fuck that guy. And he's like, actually, I am the best. And then, yeah, and then we get the Allison apology. I feel like we've kind of already covered this.

Anything else you want to say about this Allison moment here or want to talk about beesbury some more or any of that? I mean, do you want to talk about Beesbury some more? I bet he's really smart and kind and handsome and daring. Alan Beesbury. I get at sex. Sure. Loves to read.

Great cook. Yeah. Oh, God. I'm happy for you. I am. Larry Strong. Speaking of seduction, this is a masterful seduction. Incredible scene.

This was gorgeous. Pay off from something we saw in the very first episode of the season is Laris and his agon agenda, right? I love, like, you know, this Chris Ryan on Tucker runs being like, oh, so you fell for it. I feel very confident that Larry Strong is both making a calculated move here for proximity to power. Yeah. And having a genuine emotional moment contemplating his own circumstances in life.

This is him fresh licking his wounds fresh off the small council. meeting where he was humiliated. First and foremost, though, before we get to that, he's wise to Amon's milk of the poppy tactics, right? Yes. And so we get a version of this line when Orwell was talking to Allison elsewhere, right?

But from the book, it says, quote, Septans pray for him. Masons attended to him with potions and milk of the poppy, but Agon slept nine hours out of ten, waking only enough to take some meager nourishment before he slept again. Lair's isn't like, I don't think

it's a cruelly cutting the king off. I think it's advising moderation, right? He says the king will be most eager for his draft in an hour, not like, don't give him any more milk of the poppy, but like don't give him so much milk of the poppy. And like, before we get to the big Tyrion cop, I thought this feels like a minor Tyrion cop because there's a couple instances in the book with Tyrion post Blackwater when he lost his nose, not in the show, but in the book. And with Ned after his fight in the street with Jamie when he took a hit to his leg, where both of them are sort of taken off the board by generous doses of milk of the poppy.

For Ned in the book, quote, how long the sheets were tangled, his leg splinted, and plastered, a dull throb of pain shot up his side, six days and seven nights, a not very good Harrison Ford movie, and also too long for Ned to be off the border. a very crucial time of politicking and power in Kingslanding, right? And then for Tyrion, he wakes up, and this is what happens post-Blackwater. He wakes up, his, quote, his wits were coming back to him, however, slowly. That was good. His wits were all he had, which is what Laira says later, right?

The next time he awoke, the drapers had been pulled back, and Padrick Payne stood over him with a candle. When he saw Tyrion open his eyes, he ran off. No, don't go. Help me. help me, he tried to call, but the best he could do was a muffled moan. A short while later, pod reappeared. This time a stranger was with him, a macer chained and robed. My lord, you must be still, the man murmured.

Your grievous hurt. You will do yourself great injury. Are you thirsty? He managed an awkward nod. The master inserted a curved copper funnel through the feeding hole over his mouth and poured a slow trickle down his throat. Turing swallowed scarcely tasting. Too late!

He realized the liquid was milk with a poppy. By the time the master removed the funnel from his mouth, he was already spiraling back to sleep. And then later another master comes in and Turing grabs the chain around his neck and says, no more. Send him away, hear me, talks hard, need dream wine, dream wine, not milk of the poppy. Like, stop drugging me. I need to be involved in what's going on politically. You know, and they do a version of this in the show where Trian wakes up and basically like, Tewan's like, We would have kept you, kept your Medicaid for the rest of the show if we could have.

And so this idea of like a grievous injury not taking you, not just taking you off the political board or out of the game because of a little injury, but of what the people who are quote unquote caring for you will do. And this is something that like Damon and Reneira were either paranoidly like accusing or concerned about when it came to Vassaris and Milk of the Popsian. Same room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we're meant to think of that given that Egon's bandages are sort of like the, the just, you know,

mirror image. Yeah. Yeah. How Viseras looked in that bed and the way that Viseras was like, my tea. Yeah. The David's like, your tea? Let me give that a little sniff. And, you know, the way that he outright confronted Alicant about that, like, how exactly is that wisdom

expressed in blinks and weezes? I'd be surprised if he could remember. his own name. So I think like with Laris, I think that the him holding the milk of the poppy has more than one thrust behind it. Like I think he's just like everything else with Laris, right? He's, he doesn't, for Egon's benefit, doesn't want Aman's instruction and the care that he's receiving as a result of that to leave him in this like drug addled stupor where he can't tell what's happening. But in the span of this moment, it's selfish. Like, he needs, he needs, he got focused. He needs them to hear him, you know? You can't have him like blitzed out of his mind

and, like, unable to absorb the message that he's trying to share. So it feels like all of those things. I completely agree. The opening gamut is this, right? Laris says, the drink takes the pain away, but it dulls your mind. He says, oh, take heart, your grace, you've already written yourself into legend. You survived Dragonfire, right? So we're starting with flattery and lick spittlery, right? Like is how we open here. But then he says, but I'm afraid you will never be whole. Orwell has exhausted his abilities.

He's bound your leg, but you will never run again. Your mind is all that remain. Your mind is all that remains to you. King Bran the Broken is, of course, the room with us, right? The last line of Brin's chapter in a Dance with Dragons, a book that will have a sequel someday is, quote, you will never walk again, Brand, the pale, lives promise, but you will fly. And Brand, of course, becomes like only a mind

in a certain sense, you know, once he's hooked into wherewood.net. But then we get the real juice, the Tyrion and John comp that we absolutely love. Anything else you want to say about the thing about Robin Brand and all? I think just, yeah, on the brand front, like, certainly the

you'll never walk again. I was also thinking of like what just, when brand wakes up and realizes what state he's in and like the way he says I'd rather be dead you know and Rob is like don't ever say that that was on my mind here certainly just like the way that egg on is absolutely just despondent to like hear Laris describe basically what his life is going to be and also you know there's that moment where Allison asks Orwell like uh what will Like, what's that going to be like? And so everybody is confronting that.

And I don't know, like that moment with Brand, I'd rather be dead. I mean, for obvious reasons, like, it's just so devastating when he says that. And like, you know, all the different ways that Brand then finds new meaning and new purpose. Forget, like, about how Brand's story. The end of Brand's story on the show, you know, is. like one of the most meaningful parts of the story. And if you're egg on and you're like rich prince, king flew the most beautiful dragon in the world in my cosplay armor and like now what?

Like so many characters are at their now what moment, you know? And especially to say to say something like your mind is all that remains to you. to an agon who is like with love and respect he's like oh no oh boy yeah and i can't has war i can to make a war yeah that was really effective too because you know we we love now to joke about like the end philosophy line but when when amid is ripping off all of those achievements in season one it's like it's it's the the opposite of agon right he's like he doesn't take any of this shit seriously. But then, like, where does Agon get to this season? He's like, you know what? Grand Pappy? Like, I'm not going to listen to you, actually, when you tell me that I don't have

to take the small folks seriously. Like, why doesn't anybody on my small counsel listen to anything I have to say? Now, were those things sandwiched around him moving all of the Saras' books out of his bedchamber instead of reading any of them? Yes. But he was starting to show, like, some inclination to like, I think this would be fair to say, was it because he wanted people to respect him and take him seriously and not think him weak, or was it because he had a genuine interest in learning how to be better? That would be a fair question.

But he was engaged, like for our awareness, like the first time in his life, right? And so like there was this brief moment of a tether to some new possibility and like, now what? Here we get the real juice. The quote that started this podcast and reminds us both of Tyrion and John. in a Game of Thrones.

The, the Turing quote, never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you. And that's such like a concept for Laris to engage with in the first time in this show when we've really seen him get caught off guard by someone.

You know, Laris has been like, like sure he's like a little ticked that Alicent was like, ignoring his calls but taking Kristen Cole's calls. You know what I mean? Like there are moments that we've had with Laris where he's a little like, but he has seemed so in control it all the time. So for him to give this speech coming right off this,

in front of Jasper, this like, this indignation that he had to suffer in front of Jasper is like so potent. And then what do you want to say about this where like armor concept? It's something you and I have talked about a gillillion different times and different podcasts. But like, what does it mean for you for this to come up here? I mean, this is like, this is everything. This is the story. This is like the heart of the story.

This is the heart of a song of vice of fire. This is, there are a lot of different strands of story that connect parts of the universe and character sets. But I think you could fairly and convincingly argue that this is number one. that like the most characters who are most central to the stories fall into some aspect of this bucket. Like the unifying theme of the underestimated, right? And so I really loved like the way that Laris put it and they will underestimate you and this will be your advantage. Like, that's the make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness.

Part of what Tyrion says to John, you know, cripples, bastards, and broken things. It's always been, it's a wide tent, right? Oh, yeah, yes. Like, it seems like a very specific list, but it's a wide, wide, wide tent. And it's a place where women, you know, like, whatever you prefer. Like, any character who has felt like they were outside of whatever the expected or accepted norm was.

in any sphere of their family life or the realm has been a part of this. Jamie and Brianne. Yeah, this has been there. For Laris, like, you know, going back to the very beginning when we see him kind of make his way during the hunt into the circle,

the conversation circle, because he's not participating, right? Or when he says to Allison in the garden in episode five, when one is never invited to speak, one learns to observe. Like, we've always understood that this was, that Laris was a part of this,

a song of ice and fire, George Aramartan tradition. But to hear him so emotionally share like his truth with Egon and for us to learn about like his birth and his feelings about his father and the way that like not just other people have made him feel small or different,

but the people closest to him in his life, including a figure like Lionel Strong, who we've really held up and touted as... Is he, like, the only good one? You know? And then you hear this from Laris and it just fucking breaks your heart. And it's like the people,

all of these, so many characters in a Game of Thrones story at some point do a terrible thing. And then you have, this is like what you were saying earlier. You have that moment where you're like, well, why? Like, why did they think that they were so alone? And it's like really, it's meaningful when we get to understand what that origin point is for somebody. So to hear Laris say this and share this was just incredible.

And then for Egon, like the way that he was receiving this, like, thinking about everything that is like different for him now and everything that he has lost. There's this like invitation from Laris that I thought was really generous, whatever the agenda is. I don't think that diminishes the fact that there was like a generosity at play here and a desire to say like. And not for a fellowship. You're not alone in that. Like, yeah. Yeah. So I can be a person who understands.

Like, I will also be a person who tries to use you as a pawn in my game, but I can be a person who understands. When you feel alone and you feel like nobody else gets in, you feel like everybody's mocking you and laughing at you and making you feel small, like, I will understand what that feels like. Know that. It's like amazing. There's also this, something I love about this is this is really trusting the audience. It's not like super subtle at all. the comp between one of the most famous lines in all of Game of Thrones and what Laris says here. But what I really appreciate about it is there is at least some mild degree of allowing the audience to draw that connection themselves.

What really frustrated me in the latter seasons of Game of Thrones is that they would often have characters just like literally repeat lines that other characters had said. Like keep your shield up or ring your head like a bell or like whatever. You know, like these things where I'm just sort of like, why are they saying it doesn't feel like an actual connection. It just feels like you're just like, let's copy paste this line over, and then people will be like, oh, my God, it's the thing that the other person said that one time. And that just doesn't, like, satisfy me the way something like this does, or just sort of like it's the same concept, you know, phrase differently enough that you have to do with some slight investigative work yourself into your thoughts about this theme. And I just think that, like, I just think it's absolutely brilliant and I'm thrilled. and I've always been interested in Laris and I'm just like really, really glad that, you know,

they gave him this moment. The Lionel thing that you brought up, this idea that like we meet Lionel and Harwin Strong in season one and we like them both so much. And Harwin is the like quarterback and Lionel is like, you know, the principal of the school. And how do they get, how do they, how did they, how did this kid wind up this way in this house?

And like, we didn't really, interrogate it beyond like I'm you know the idea that Simon strong as you rightly point out a couple times like the way that he says club foot with this like poison and his and his voice something that Laris has has nothing to do with his foot but like the poison he has earned by trying to burn her and haul down like that is something that he did that we're going to like definitely hold him accountable for but like how does this dynamic happen like there is that one moment in season one uh that served as a little little bit of exposition to us when Larris and Harwin share that moment at the feast where he's talking about

the color of what colored, you know, is the fire that's at the high tower, so war, green, like, that's a brother. That's like kind of the only brotherly moment we really get before Larris kills his brother. I want to know so much more about this dynamic and it has shades of a sort of dark mirror image of like Jamie and Tyrion where Jamie was the like golden bowl. boy, Tywin the destructive father, but Jamie loved Tyrion and protected Tyrion. And you don't get the sense that that is something that Harwin offered to Laris, or maybe I'm extrapolating, I don't know. We'll have to ask his ghost next time we have ghost therapy at Aaron Hall.

But like, we're thinking of you and I both thought of the scene in season four, Game of Thrones, when Oberyn comes to visit Tyrion in the black cells to offer Albirech. champion. Before he says that, you know, he talks about the way that Circe brought Oberyn into meet Tyrion and described him as monstrous, you know, blah, blah, your arms and legs were a bit small, but no claw, no red eye, no tail between your legs, just a tiny pink cock. We didn't try to hide her disappointment. That's not a monster, I told Susie. That's just a baby. Like, thinking of Lionel Strong in a Tywin Lannister bucket is a wild thing for the show to do a season later. And such a smart thing for the show to do.

We meet Laris. We're not questioning Lionel's complicity in what happened here. But as we get this description of Lionel, like, going on a literal witch hunt when his son is born this way, like, makes us, you know, rethink everything. Which is interesting. I love that Obron-Tarian conversation in seeing so much. It's just so heart-enching. And it's really, it's, it never stopped. You don't hit a point in your life where you're like,

it doesn't feel like shit if somebody makes you feel bad, right? But like to think of, to feel like you were alone from the moment you were born through no fault of yours. Like nothing you did. He killed my mother. how you are, who you are. And people blaming you for that, holding something about just like you against you,

your very nature, obviously there are any number of different ways that that can manifest. And it's just like a hideous thing to feel that prejudice before you did anything. Simply because you exist. People hate you and they blame you and they judge you. Of course you would feel alone in the world.

Like, how could you not? If Lionel Strong blamed Alice Rivers for Laris birth, which is the implication. Lined spells. What does that tell us about her potential relationship with each individual strong? We don't have a firm answer, but it does add to the mystery, right? We don't know. But like, did she know, we know that he sent two guys wearing his little Firefly bug

pin for no good reason, you know, to burn down Harren Hall. So it's not that like... I still would not have my murder team wear a jacket that said I'm with Laris. And you simply would not. the body part of a friend where you're freezing in the wilderness. But like, but, um... If it were me. If it were me, simply would not.

But was Alice complicit in that at all? You know what I mean? Like, was she... Did Lionel keep her in his employ? Or did she only come back to Heron Hall after he was dead? That's the question I have is like, whether she actually had anything to do with what happened. Who knows? But if, if it feels like certainly the malign spells thing is meant to make a stink of

Alice. And so then it's like, it does heighten that question that we kind of already had. We've been like, well, to Simon, like, seems like he keeps finding Damon, like, falling through doorways or like, you know, with his wine goblet knocked over at the table, etc, etc. Like, obviously you can tell something's up. Like, how, what level of awareness do the members, the inhabitants of Harren Hall have at a given moment of time? Not a visitor like Damon, but the, the inhabitants of this place of, like, what, Alice is connected to and then why do they let her stay? Do they, is there a possibility that they actually cannot cast her out?

I think the way that Simon Strong describes her later when he says our own healer, Alice Rivers volunteered her renowned skills. All of that sounds like laudatory. Like he doesn't have anything negative to say about Alice. Yeah. But it doesn't sound like that would have been the case about Lionel. So why would he have let her stay? My head canon, and I can't wait to find out more, is that she got fired, she left.

The fire happened. And then she just – because remember, she's like, what happened to the last Macer? Oh, he left. Like, that feels like a recent development, you know what I mean? That she showed back up and she's like, oh, I don't know. Their Macer's gone. Simon Strong, do you need some help? I'm 400 years old, but you don't need to know that.

Okay. Let's talk about Allison and her two good children. Allison and Darren via Gwain This is the scene you loved I loved Freddy Fox's Gwain Like the smirk The gentle sneer

As Allison who's clearly looking for Kristen And not for him Comes in to the R She lies, he knows she's lying She may even know that he knows she's lying And when he says, well my, thanks to the Queen Dowager Like he's just so like Okay

Which is such a such a huge difference between their almost conspiratorial air when we last saw the three of them

in a courtyard together that it was like Gwayne and Allison sort of allied somewhat against Kristen Cole I like the idea

that it was a feature not a bug that we were like why didn't Allison go talk to Gwain after Rook's rest and find out what happened like blah

and Gwain's like why didn't my sister come talk to me after Rook's rest to find out how injured I was or what actually went down. Like, it seems like they haven't had a conversation since he returned from war. And he's, like, a little pissed about it.

I would go further and say, like, it seems like whatever little whispers they were sharing in the courtyard in that initial arrival, I feel like he was like, where's dad? And she was like, let me quickly tell you what happened. And then he went to talk to Kristen about his gidding assent. It seems like these two don't have a relationship. And, like, that's really... devastating to confront, but one of those

effective parallels across the character sets, you know, Chris was, um, this seemed to really strike, Chris loved the scene. We were chatting with him about, on Talk to the Thrones,

that aspect in particular in addition to just the wonderful performances from both Olivia Cook and Freddie Fox, shocking stuff that these two are wonderful always, was like, oh, nobody in these,

like, these families don't know each other. It's like, they don't, you know, and that, that is so central to the heart of what we're seeing. And it makes something like, you know, the family you find,

the family you build, the family you choose, like a friendship, like the one between Renair and Allison, the fact that that then is sacrificed for your blood ties with people you don't like or give a shit about, even more damning. Like, genuinely tragic. I love this going, Allison. See him. The comedy of the initial, yeah, clocking this, she was clear there for Kristen was so good. I also just loved how he kept trying to go back to it. his horse. Yeah. He's like, I know you're not here to talk to me.

So like you don't have to keep reengaging me in conversation. I don't need your favor. I don't need to revisit our childhood. You just kind of get on with it, don't you? When you have no other choice, let me go. Thank you. So I loved this. I loved the way they talked about their past.

Like I, Alison sort of having her Frodo, I wish none of this had happened moment. You know, like when she, Because she's like, what if you brought you to court instead, right? Like, what if I had never come to this place? Of all the many myriad, beautiful references and comps you could have in your bag of,

your literary bag of holding that you carry with you wherever you go is Alice in Frodo Baggins was never going to be on my list. That's just the one and only time I will ever say this. Just to like, ugh, I really wish I could have this happened. And then, and then Kewain Gandalf is like, So do all. I guess we'll have to come to Kings Landing and then Ed Shearron comes in and is like, worst place in the world.

We'll have to watch her wound to see if it heals or not. Okay, go ahead. I liked, you know, again, we chatted about this with Chris, but like I did, I really liked the way that, because like, Amand, when he's dunking on Laris with like the go find my grand sire, go get on a high tower, he'll be my hand. It's like, he always puts his family. family first. And then again, we have to confront like, well, what does that mean and what does that look like? Because Gawain, when Allison is like, have you heard from dad, he said, he would write you?

If you wrote letters, it would be to you, you were always his favorite. So we get a nice, like, Vesaris, Damon, Alyssa, like, who was the favorite kind of comp there, great stuff. Another moment to mention the Smothers Brothers brothers. Yeah, it was officially a streak now. And, you know, can you truly say you care about your family, you care about the advancement, but you care about the well-being of any actual person inside of it, right? Fascinating to parse. And it was heartbreaking that, like, you know, the line you've mentioned, like, you get on with it, don't you? When there isn't any choice was crushing.

Like, eight years old? Great stuff. Cool, yeah, great. You're like the, you're the, the eldest son. you're the eldest son and you're the heir old town amazing cool what a life beautiful city people always talk about how great it is you have no one your dad left you behind your mom's dead it's gonna be yeah before you and your sister have a meaningful conversation about anything that's heart wrenching and so like then when when alicent mentioned Darren I mean honestly my first

response was I was like cackling my son Darren and what's he like? It was just so funny. It felt like such a little like wink to us. So the Darren stands waiting for him. But then like we're treated to just this like gorgeous, generous conversation. You know, you described it on Talk to Thrones as like the gift that Gawain gives her. And that was exactly what I had put in my notes.

Like what a gift because it would feel like the most precious thing in the world to Allison for somebody to say to her as she is like confronting everything that happened with Egon and all the things that she felt about him. Amon and what Amon has somehow become. And what Amon has somehow become? And he's like to say, I mean, we get this wonderful description of Darren that I guess we should just actually share in full. Yeah. My son, Daron. What's he like? Does he not right to you?

Less and less these days. Ten and six now. Letters perhaps hold less of his interest. He's stalwart. Clever. There's a debt with his loot. as he is with his sword and a feature in the fancies of many a young lady i'll wager he's kind kindness is a quality i found lacking in his brothers you did well to send him to ward

yes it seems the red keep for all its privileges may in fact be a less than salubrious environment for the forming of young men was it the court was it their mother i'm sure you did your best on the one hand the boon of knowing that one of her sons is a good person, that Darren is good. But then, like, the agony of having to confront that the one who's good is the one that... She had nothing to do with raising.

Wasn't with her? I know. I know. Holy shit. Like, which feeling would be more dominant at their? Relief and gratitude or misery? It's, like, hard to know. But, again, this was what I was referencing earlier when I said, like, I felt proud of Allison

because it shows us that she is reflecting. And while it's painful, I think that points to like growth and consideration. And then just in general, I thought like the tenderness on display in this conversation and that little like gift of generosity in a really, really bleak world was a meaningful balm. I really loved this scene. Loved it. I loved all that. I love that you mentioned that.

I love the way that Freddie delivered all of this, the way that Olivia played the reception of it. I thought that was tremendous stuff. And again, it's just like another deepening. I'm going to reach into like a shallower little reference than Lord of the Rings. Again, similar to like we meet Laris and we think we understand exactly what archetype, you know, he is a plain dealing villain from Shakespeare's shortlist of bastards, resentful bastards. And then we're like getting more information about him, right?

Similarly with Wayne, who's a very different character who serves a very different function in the book. So this is a show invention, which is great. He's reminding me, again, shallower level in the bag. Like Finneco Dare. When Finneco Dare shows up in Hunger Games catching fire, and he's just this, like, shitty, but charming, handsome golden boy, has it all just like the most handsome to ever handsome. Like all of stuff like that.

And he's just sort of like the swagger, which he seems to have earned. It's just like ever. And so, like, to, we've already peeled back some of the layers on Gwain on the road when he's like, a dragon. Oh my God. You know, like, all that starts, like, we've seen him. We've seen him react to things. But this sad backstory, this is his, like, Annie backstory for Finnic where he just sort of like, he was wearing like a mask when we met him. And this is who he really is.

And I was thinking a lot about this idea of them of at least Allison engaging in a what if. And he's like, I don't, he's like, I don't do that. But we're going to talk a bit more later about Renira and Damon sort of trying on each other, cosplaying each other in this episode. So this idea of like another pair of just sort of like, what if I had been the man?

What if I had the armor and you the dress sort of thing? We're back to, that's Sertie and Robert, back to Sertie and Jamie. There's also some like strong Marjorie and Loris, coming off these two, for me, the Tyrell's. But maybe I'm reaching. Okay. Interesting.

Interesting. Walk me through the Tyrell one a little bit more. I'm curious. I feel like I feel, I'm interested in the Marjorie Allison comp there. The Marjorie Allison comp is that Marjorie is just so much better at the, a similar game that Allison is trying to play. That like Marjorie has had guidance from Olena on how to play this game successfully. And then Allison, I mean, I'll admit to you that it might be like slightly just a physical comp between like the long reddish, wavy reddish hair of Marjorie and Allison.

Like that's just slightly coated for me. But like I think that idea of like these women through their advantageous political marriages are trying to wield some soft power. And for both of them, Marjorie again, much better at the game. But for both of them, it winds up not working out. That that is not the way that they found that they could play the game. What's interesting about that is, of course, like Marjorie and Laris are so close. Like, they have such a... They know everything about each other.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So then you... But it's almost like a... It's like one of those like dark mirror comps. You know what I mean? Where it's just sort of like it's a bizarro version of Marjorie Lois. I think that's part of why it struck me to hear you say it is because it's like...

Oh, in a way that I find sort of like dismaying but dramatically compelling, it like, it's almost a challenge to the like, because I feel like I always have the tendency to be like, oh, these people just like talked and like hung out more. Yeah. Wouldn't it all be fine? It's like maybe not. It wasn't. Actually. Unfortunately. Maybe not.

I really hope we get more time with Gawain. I just think he's been such a delight. I think like the other moment that we understand now better is like that worse, I'm rational. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like had to like to, I was thinking about that here. You make the great little Finnic who broke out of Finnic comp.

I love it. It's like he had to, you know, when you have no choice. Like he had to learn how to become rational early. 10 and 16. This is a 16 year old kid. We did get this email from our listener, Ryan, who says, I know the show Hot D is girly with the ages of all the kids, but Gwayne casually dropping that Darren is 16 made me realize the truvility of a Saras Targaryen.

He made his childwife, Alison, give birth to four. kids in four separate pregnancies in a four to six year time span with Westeroce medicine. And he did it right after he butchered his last wife and childbirth. It's a little harsh. But then he didn't even have the good grace to parent those Tark Tower kids at all himself. I'm sure we all have thoughts about Allison's parenting, but she had no shot. It's a miracle she's a vibe to parent her kids at all. So when Gwain said she tried her best, I hope no one scoffs.

So I like that from Ryan. Yeah. This is just how I know I'm just too deep. in the in the the the Darren I'm waiting for Darren like when I when I honestly like where my mind went when I heard the 10 and 6 I was just like so Darren and jace the the milk brother Vassaris plot lives does like did you start did you start dream casting um I actually so I don't have any actual ideas but I was you don't have binders 16 year old actors that you care share with the class.

Okay, cool. Please to say I do not. But I was, I did find myself thinking, I think this show has been so expertly cast. So far I have no doubt they'll knock Darren out of the park as well. But I did have a moment where I was like, Darren mentioned. We've gone from like, where the fuck is Darren? When are we getting Darren to like, Darren mention after Darren mentioned after Darren mentioned. And now this like really amazing description from Gwain, the expectation in the hype for book readers was already high.

Now for show viewers, too, it's going to be like, this Darren guy seems pretty interesting. Like, they got a nail casting for Darren. He's got to come in and be like a charm offensive for minute one. And they will definitely remember this in 2026 when Darren shows up on this show. Okay. Allison and Helena in the hapless Pussy Posse. A moment for spoiler-free cricket prophecy speculation. Okay.

I love this. Yeah. Yeah. We've missed Helena's little. dispatches. One of her crickets is stop singing Slash as possibly dead.

So what could she be talking about here? Couple inside this very episode options are the Dragon Keeper that's about to get roasted during Stefan Darkland's attempt to ride Seas Smoke. Seasmoke himself

who was singing mournfully hooting mournfully off the coast and surely is no longer. Anyone else that you got on your spoiler free list? We'll come back to this in the spoiler section, but anyone else? I like the Dragon Keeper one just because they were quite literally engaged in song. Yeah, I like that one. Allison does a cage cricket who used to have a voice in small council meetings and now has been silenced.

Yeah. I like that one. I know why the cage cricket sings. Okay. Here we are. Allison's like, let's take a trip to the sept. Helena's like, I don't like to leave my room, but okay. Welcome to a more visible position in the Kings Guard, Sir Rickard Thorne.

Ricard has been here for a couple episodes now, but mostly background because we had other, we had Chrissy Cole to pay attention to. We had some cargles to pay attention to. We had the pussy posse to pay attention to you, but we're down a pussy posse member. The cargles are dead. Kristen's off to war. So Rickard Thorne, step on up to the plate. What could possibly go wrong?

Alison, Queen of the Fishes, gets pulled out of the steps with poor Helena. Why they did this rather than just shelter in place, the world may never know, except that the pussy posse themselves perhaps were involved in some bad decision making here. The mob, which, as you mentioned, before, offered them sort of tears and sympathy, turns vicious and old dude gets his arm chopped off. Yep. And then Tom Bent. in the house the dragon built a dockey show that went up on YouTube

is just there in a pink polo being like that escalated quickly incredible iconic stuff from Tom remarkable this is a this is wild obviously a ton of parallels to the riot in season two of Game of Thrones

Joffrey got a cow pie to the face Allison's got a wad of fish guts to the face which of those is preferable in your mind Joanna, if you had to pick. Fish. I'll take the fish. Yeah, I think so as well. I mean, they're both a pass, but I think if you had to pick,

you'd take the fish, not the literal shit. Hunger, obviously, is the cause of both of these riots. While we did not see the high septon pulled into the throng and then pulled apart limb by limb, as we did in Game of Thrones season two, we did see our guy, Leo, pulled down and stabbed viciously by the angry mob. At first I was like, who is that? Because, you know, they're wearing their helmets, but thankfully, this subtitling gave us very helpful Estimaltz. As he's just subsumed by the crash. Marty and Eddie are like, no.

Estamont. The other thing that struck me about this sequence, other than me... And I think it's very clear that Leo was the best of them. They're all three of them shitty. But Leo was the first one to catch on that Agon was kind of serious about the chastity about when Marty's like, sure, sure, sure. And Leo was already like, oh, he's serious, man. Never fucked a woman.

Oh, God. Great stuff. I, so seeing Allison, like, throw herself in front of Helena to protect her. Maybe think of Allison doing the same thing, putting herself shielding egg on, like, putting herself in front of Agon in the ill-fated, let's never speak of it, and yet we somehow find a reason to bring it up every single episode. Dragon Pit sequence from season one, episode nine. And so for all of the things that have.

gone wrong between Allison and her children. It is always worth remembering that in the moment of urgent peril, she has continued to put herself in front of them to keep them safe. I think it's very important. Allison Damon. And Viseris. Patty Constine. Patty at last.

Shuffle on down to the throne, my guy. Here you are. If you've ever wanted the most delightful behind the scenes, like maybe you're someone who doesn't watch the behind the scenes. I just really need you to see how Patty Constit was having the time of his goddamn life playing Macerastargarian again, playing air guitar on the ancestral

Valerian sword. No notes. No notes for that. We broke this down a bit on Talk the Thrones, but we finally get, as we had been hoping, Patty in the dream space. And we were playing one of our shared favorite scenes from season one episode one, a scene that we have genuinely

quoted again and again and again. And the writers of the show were like, we also think it's an important scene. This is the different, slightly different version of a scene we've seen before. Steve can you play this clip? Did you say it? The air for a day. Did you say it? You can't possibly still be angry about this. My family. was just destroyed. You should have been at my side, but instead you chose to celebrate your own rise. Laughing at me.

Laughing with the whores and lick spittles. No. You have no allies at court but me. I have only ever defended you. In everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face! I've decided, name anew heir. You are to return to room. are to return to Roonstone and your ladywife at once.

And you are to do so without quarrel by order of your king. Please. Loved it. Thanks. I loved it. Okay. So I'm just going to say something. What I said on Talk Thrones,

there are plenty of people who listen to those who don't listen or watch Talk to Thrones, but you should. But I just want to make sure that we talk about this. What I consider the key difference, there's, we're going to talk in a second about the second Vassaris dream situation this idea that I

sort of cherish in stories like this of like these moments as almost like supernatural trials right like you have to figure out if you're stuck in a loop on something as the people who are irritated with this timeline this storyline definitely feel like a dam it is stuck in a loop of

nightmares and hair all. How do you break out of that loop by doing something different, right? You make a different decision and it breaks out of that loop. This happens again and again and again in the sci-fi fantasy stories that we love. But what I love in this first iteration is Veseris says, I have decided, and then Damon says, don't. He says to name a new heir. That's Damon trying to change what Viseris did. when the lesson isn't that Vassarist did something wrong there, the lesson is that Damon did something wrong there, and he's not,

he's close, but he's not quite ready to accept that that's true. And what I talked about on Talk to Thrones is like watching the two scenes side by side. There's some key differences in turn, I mean, the sound design for one, but like in the real version, there were other people in that room.

This is like a very public shaming that Vassaris did, draped in all of, you know, the crown, the sword. all of that sort of on the throne. This isn't a brother-to-brother conversation. This is a king-to-a-subject conversation.

So there's no one else there in the room with them. But I think most crucially, that locked door idea is that, as Alice will say in the Wehrwood Grove a bit, like you just leave. You just fuck off. You just go. And he does fuck off on Caraxies right after Vassar said to the statement season one episode one. You can't leave.

And in not leaving, you have to confront. the fact that Vassaris here, as he did in that original scene, breaks down because he's so upset. But Damon is so focused on his own hurt in that original scene that he cannot process what that moment meant to Viseris. And this dream locking him in here forces him to hear, as we all just heard, the anguish that Vassaris is going through in grieving his wife, grieving his son, and then grieving this support that he would seek from his brother, that this betrayal and sending his brother away, which is something ultimately, Damon's like, you're always doing this to me, but ultimately

is not something I think Facerus wants to do. He loves Damon. He wants to have Damon close to him. But that's something Damon can't possibly absorb or acknowledge in that, in that version of him that we met in season one episode one. It's a character. I don't know if you've heard this, Mallory, on an arc. I love an arc. What a character on a lot. What are the compare contrast you want to do between that original scene and the stream version we get? Yeah, I mean, I think in general, just as like a backdrop for the Vassaris arrival more broadly. Like, obviously, this is the defining central relationship in Damon's life. And so this had to be what we were building toward.

And then also the fact that, you know, we talk about this line a lot as well, but like the fact that we heard Damon say to, Reneira during their fight in the season one finale. My brother was a slave to his omens and portents, anything to make his feckless reign appear to have purpose. Dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did. It's like, there couldn't be a more delicious place for Damon to have to confront and work through his history with Vassaris and the way that he failed himself and Viseris.

Then, like, in the arena that Vassaris, like, put stock in and, and Damon ridiculed. So that was just, I thought, quite enticing overall. In terms of this first dream, I like that we got, Dream 1, an altered version of a scene we actually experienced, and they experienced and we were there with them. And then Dream 2, which we'll talk about later,

like a moment that we definitely understand they did not share. And that's like a moment Damon is inserting himself into because he wishes he had been there. So there's that crossing of the threshold then. And so like when we're going through the differences in this scene, I think the reason we return to this, I mean, there are a lot of reasons we return to this sequence from season one so often. But, you know, I think top of the list for me of like why it comes up so often is because it feels like the,

this great handy encapsulation of like what Damon cares about, this heiress. but also who he thinks he can be better then. Vasarius. So it is the duality of Damon in one sequence. You know, when he's like, you've only ever tried to send me away, but then also when he's like, he doesn't protect you, I would,

from what yourself, you're weak? All of that is there in that first encounter. So the things that are the same are I think almost as interesting, right? It's like, the air for the day impetus, the lickspiddle rebuke, no allies at court, name a new heir,

return to run stone by order or not if your brother, like you noted, but you're king. Like, what is Damon actually carrying over? What's stuck? That's kind of the list. The differences, I... So the... The effectiveness of the challenge struck me as a big difference.

Like, Damon is really actively challenging Viseris in the real scene, the first scene in season one, and focusing on other people. It's not just, I think what I already... I also had, like, what you noted of... there aren't other people in the room. That's a big difference. But just in terms of the content of what they're discussing, Damon is so hung up on Otto in the season one scene. Right. And what we get in Dreamland here is just entirely oriented, literally physically, but also the substance of what they're discussing around them. The fact that there are no guards present, no Kings guards lined up, it makes it more intimate. It makes it more personal and more private. So it's less of a like public shaming. But it also just literally allows for a different level of. of proximity, you know, in the first season when Damon tries to move forward, the guards, they stop him, he's reminded that he's not shit, right? He can't even get near his

brother if he wanted to. Here, he walks up the steps toward the throne. Obviously, like, the clinging of the crown and the removal of it, given with that crown and it falling off of the Sarah's head, Damon picking it up and then placing it on Reneera's head and then him being like to Reneer, did I not put it on your head? Was it not me?

Like, that obviously felt huge. Chopping your head off. The pinning in the way that I don't I don't think we're necessarily supposed to think

this to be clear but like it's just something about the sound design and the like pitch of Damon's voices he was screaming open the door

it like really made me think of hold the door you know and it's like so then there's something about just being trapped in this like or trying to trap

something in in this like desperate moment the other the other big difference I had is the finger cut like Viseris cuts is

So I actually, I'll say I didn't have, I had Viseros weeping as a difference. Like, he doesn't like, he doesn't weep, but he like, when, once Damon's back is turned, his face like breaks and he like, crumbles. He's, yeah, I like. He doesn't like sob the same way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, yeah. He, I read what, in the first season and the first scene, like, I read Viseras's response to the emotion there. I agree with you.

I think he is devastated and Damon isn't confronting that. I was struck that like because what he did, he's almost like he slumps back, he crumbles, but he's almost like he's just like defeated, right? And like when he cuts his finger, like reminding us that Damon didn't see that was so interesting to me because that's like the throne's rejection. Like that's when it begins. Vserra's casting Damon out is the moment that the throne rejects him. And so there's another lesson there, right, about the separation and these families pushing each other away and pushing each other apart.

But Damon was on the march out. Like, he didn't see that that happened. And there's the thing that I think is most interesting to me about that is if he had, I think he wouldn't have taken the lesson of like, this is we're being told we're meant to be together. He would have said one more reminder that you're not worthy. Right. So the throne, the idea of like the throne standing in judgment and Damon not seeing. the beginning of that for Vassaris was interesting to me as well. I like, I kind of like that.

The only pushback I would give is I don't think Damon believes in signs of portents. So I don't know that he believes that the throne cutting you means that you're not worthy, you know? But now, I mean, obviously he'll say exactly that to Alice in, you know, mere moments. He's just like, enough of this fucking drivel. But I think that's part of what this is like this whole stretch of hair and all is about, right? It's like, and I was it Condal in one of the earlier inside the episodes who was like, we wanted to put him in a circumstance where he couldn't deny

that supernatural influence and so that's what would have been interesting to me about it if that had actually been there was like Damon having to be like huh right but he but he didn't see it so he couldn't how would he know unless it can't carry over but his mind is bringing

the weeping the outright weeping which Vissar's did not do in front of him like Damon that's demon's guilt like manifesting right and he's just like this is how I believe leave I made him feel. But it's also like, it's also like, Damon's memory of that moment,

my read on this is that Damon's memory of that moment is that was his story. That only happened to him. It didn't happen to anyone else. And what this dream is making him confront to your point about like, you're like, that was the moment with the throne cutting Vassaris, that was the moment that would start at all of Viseras's story, right? And so this is like a huge moment for Vassaris and Damon. Couldn't consider that at the moment.

And so what all of this nightmare playground time at Heron Hall has been pushing Damon towards in concert with Alice's overt, do you hear the screams of the people that you're putting under the sword by proxy, by leashing people to do evil, is empathy. It's not just consequences of your own actions. It's empathy. What does her nearest say? like you do whatever you want you and I got to sew this little baseball head back on this body

you know I got to clean up your messes it's not just about you you didn't just do a funny thing with blood and cheese how does this impact me right yes yeah absolutely and I that's why I really loved this first scene because you take like the pain of something that he's carried with him and known and confronted actively for years upon years because it's like his defining resentment being stripped as air no don't But then you trump it, right, the pain of failing the people that you love in the world. And like, that's the thing. That's actually that's the thing he runs from, right?

He runs from Viseris's like disappointment. That's the thing he's trying to escape and flee because he's not ready to confront it yet. Air for a day. He doesn't want to hear it again. I'm going to name a new air. He doesn't want to hear it again. But he's carried that with him. Having to see Vassaris like shake and quiver, it's too much for him.

He can't bear it. to know that he made him feel that way. Then we get Alice and Damon in next to the wherewood tree. Damon is packed up his bag. Are we going to talk about the little moment with Simon before he goes there? Can't what do you want to say?

I just thought that the way that, first of all, I thought the way that like Damon, three quick things. One, I thought the way he invoked peace was interesting. Like he's like, are you perhaps the culprit who's been tampering with my peace? because later we hear Reneira say like he is incapable of knowing peace and also even just the idea that for Damon,

what's his version of what it was, will peace be just fleeing to go do your own thing and be in control. The hysteria in his voice, I don't know what other word to use to describe it when he's like, or is it Reneira herself? Is it Reneer herself? Yeah, Matt pushing his voice to a break on that was really good. And then the way that Simon was like,

I thought almost like, And shushing him like a little baby who needed to be calmed. It was just incredible. I want to know what this season was like for the three, the strong grandsons who just got to sit in a room and watch Matt Smith and Sir Simon Russell Beale act all season. It was incredible. And like not eat red current, but other things. No red current. Yeah.

I mean, I don't mean to rush past Simon. I love Simon. He's perfect and everything that he does. the the alicean yes phenomenal stuff he has packed a bag he's about to fuck off on his dragon again he's like fuck this river lids

fuck this wearwood bed fuck the goose and the duck I don't want any of it fuck your weird paste that you gave me in the kitchen that one time um I've had it um is uh

is that bag capacious enough to carry all the things that and brought with him to Heron Hall. We say no. We say that man has a serious suit of armor, and I don't know where he, like, was that already on Caraxis? He was to say, anyway,

a very small bag for all of his, as he stomps out. Let's talk about a few specific things in this scene. I was struck by, you brought up on Talk to Thrones, and I had agreed I had in my notes this journey from when he, when she asks,

Damon Turner and asks him for help and he says, he corrects her, he says, counsel. And then by the end of the scene, he says, I need help, Alice. So this really feeds into this theme of coalition building or vulnerability or saying,

I'm sorry, or I need, I need help, or I need, I want, I'm sorry, like all of that stuff that we're seeing across the playing. The board here. And then the titles thing, Damon,

who has been insistent upon his king consort title elsewhere, lets Alice off the hook, right? He calls her Alice, which is intimate yes, but not like, Alarola's possibility. She is a member of the household staff. Like, he would call her Alice. That's appropriate. But she says,

Damon Targaryen asking for help, right? She calls him Damon. Like, she doesn't say Damon, or she doesn't say, Dame, as Chris Ryan is fond of saying. But she says, like, Damon Targaryen. She doesn't say, like, my liege, Lord, my concerts, my whole, you know, like, you know, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And he doesn't, like, stop her.

And I just think that that, Again, there's this has been sort of from the jump, this odd level of intimacy between them that I really, that is very potent. It works really well. Should we listen to Alice here? Talk to Damon. There are older things in this world than you or I or a living memory. You are not the player, but a piece on the board. does I

for that matter I'm not like you in some ways no you struggle to see there's an anger that blind you she never even wanted it the crown

she spared it no thought that's perhaps why your brother gave the crown to her perhaps those who strive for it are the least suited to wait it don't lecture me Vassaris never wanted it himself if you recall he came to him and he did his best

it's not a prize to be won, but a burden to bear. Little echoey hoots and hollers from Karaxes throughout this stuff. Great. iconic work from Paula Fairfield, as always. Oh, Kraxies. Shout out Paula. Shout out Krakse's and is a deviated septum. All right.

Molly Rubin. We're smack dab and I don't want it country. What do you want to say about that? I don't want it. Oh, fast. This is all, this is just, boy, there's a lot here to parse. I, I'm fascinated and obviously like we're just fascinated by everything about Alice, but like how she knows what she knows and like, that's, maybe let's put a pin in that and come back to that in a minute. I think, um, the state that we find Damon in, we've kind of been like all season. Like, why doesn't he just like leave and we know the answer right? He can't admit defeat. But then he does actually reach this moment where he's like, I just got to get the fuck out of here. And I thought it was interesting that he was like, there's something wrong with me,

but then immediately it's someone else's fault. Because I was like, oh, is he gonna, there's something wrong? Oh, Eric, no, no, someone poisoned me. Someone, it's the swamp bear. Like someone else, something else never mean, right? Fucking wear wood bed. So like Alice just being like, here are all the very specific places that I know you went.

Or like, let's talk about how Vassaris never wanted the crown. Like, this is just all really interesting. I want to know your thoughts on where we are in the like, Green Sear the theory corner with Alice and just in general this connection to the old magic and the wherewood network which she invokes

here, right? This is kind of fascinating and very rich text here. You know, we talked about already elsewhere today like this ripple of the like that's the burden of rule idea that we hear from Laris. So of course like this is where we get it here from Alice.

And you know, Damon will lamenting that Reneira didn't want it. This was interesting to me because, like, it made me think of, so on the one hand, I think he's like, he holds her in judgment for that. He's like, how could you not want it, right?

But on the other hand, it made me think of what you've been tracking and noting the last couple weeks of, like, maybe Damon is just like, you're not the person I thought I had signed up to do this with, right? in a number of different respects and reasons. So that was kind of interesting. But I mean, the thing that Alice says here,

perhaps those who strive for it are the least suited to wear. It's just like literally quoting Deathly Alice. Like, this is actually what Doubledore says to Harry. It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power or those who have never sought it, those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them

and take up the mantle because they must and find to their own surprise that they wear it well. So, like, obviously we talk about this a lot. this is a tradition in many fantasy stories. I think it's true that not all reluctant leaders who think they're bad at it or not worthy end up being good leaders. Agon, for example, he was like, I'm not suited. And guess what?

He wasn't, right? You know, we talked a little bit on Talk to Thrones about how I think this is one of the reasons that Renera's arc has been interesting and satisfying because, like, she's kind of occupied multiple different places on this. Do you want it or do you not want it? Spectrum. You know, and then in this episode, I think, like, this is all being. put out to us in contrast to someone like,

aim it into, who has set out loud a lot. Like, I would be the best at this. I would be better suited for it. I'm going to do it. It's my time. Oh, you guys decided it's me. I'm going to walk right to the edge of the table

and start issuing edicts without a second thought. And that's not going so great for him right now. So all of this stuff feels like it's in like a conversation with each other in this episode. You know, we've heard Allison, like, voice something about Viseris,

like with that he would have been, you know, this was in the Reni's conversation last season, like would have been more content as like a country lord. And I think it's interesting to consider that in light of what you were noting earlier about kind of like Viseris's glossed up post-death legacy. And like, you know, did the fact that he like wasn't in line for it and his choosing was the product of the great counsel and he never thought he would be in that

position, et cetera. And then he didn't want it. And then does that mean he was equipped? Like, I don't know. Maybe not. I mean, one of the, one of the Targaryen rulers who was, like, held in the deepest state of ridicule across the canon is Argyne Anus. Utter out loud by Simon as Enis. Which I guess makes sense because Rainis, Aeneyce, etc.

But devastating still. I will just keep calling him Ais. Nice to worry. Thank you. But, you know, we won't get into all of the particulars, obviously. But basically, like, Anus. just couldn't make a decision, couldn't get anything done, you know, a reign that was defined by indecision and a lack of confidence. And I think, as we chronicled at length, you could say

the same was true for Vassaris. And so the idea that he is now propped up as like, well, and he was great is quite odd. Like this is what is happening right now is Vassaris's legacy. Oh, no, I know. And that's what we love about fire and blood, that line in fire and blood is about the, you know, seeds of, was it discontent war being sown in times of peace? Yeah, and we quoted it like four pods in a row, and Dave was like, you guys have to stop quoting this same passage because this is always true for all wars. Why are you guys so taken by this one line? That was true about everything.

That was a really classic Dave Gonzalez woman. I stand by the passage and our tendency to turn to it. This is what Viseris is wrought by his indecision and, you know, all that sort of stuff is. is still interesting. I guess to go back to the, like, reluctant leader thing, which we will continue to hash out on, many pause to come, I'm sure. I go back to, I think one of the first times we talked about this was in the context of War of the Rings.

And I go back to this idea is like kind of a more modern idea that like, I think is meant to satisfy people who like don't believe in a monarchy, which I don't. I'm not a monarchist. I'm a, you know, I believe democracy. I don't believe you have a right to rule. Right. So, like, I think if you compare Aragorn as Tolkien wrote him, which is a guy who's like, hey, I'm the king. Guess what? I'm the king and I'm going to be pretty good at it because that's who I am versus Aragorn in the Peter Jackson films who's like, I don't want it. I'm not sure. That was just like a huge adaptive choice that I really feel like Peter Jackson was like, the reluctant leader idea will sit better with people who aren't like. this guy thinks he should be king. Why for why? I mean, the reason is he is awesome. Like he's Erichord. He's the best. But so yeah, I just, I really think of it as a, you know,

I'm not opposed to a pro-democracy modern idea that like people think that they deserve the crown. But like inside a Targaryian dynasty, it is a particularly hard like idea for me to swallow when like the divine right of kings is like so fundamental to who they think they are. So the idea of like Viseris and Reneira being these like a don't want it kind of rulers. I don't know. It's interesting to me. But I think of Vesaris and I don't want it guy with the with dragons. Right.

That's like the that's the that's the fascinating part of his character. But that's even again, that's a little bit more of a show invention than it is a book invention. And it's their ish in the books. And then they decided to really like hammer it in the show. One of our listeners I don't have the email in front of me, I apologize, brought up Sansa Stark, show version of Sonsa Stark as someone who felt like they should wanted to and felt like they should rule. Inside a more elegantly done final couple of seasons of Game of Thrones, I could relish that a bit more. But I'm still just always traumatized by her turning to Brandon Council, but just being like, by the way, can I have the north? Cool, thanks.

I still, every time I revisit that, I just want you to be like, wait, can I have a take back? Can I have the Iron Islands while we're doing this? But I do get emotional watching Sonsa, like, walk towards her throne with her crowd and stuff like that. So, like, yeah, that's an interesting counter. Somebody to think about Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com, our emails are always open. Alice, I'm about to talk about some owl stuff in a hot second, but Alice kills Grover's for Damon because he showed some emotional growth. So where are you on this?

Like, where are you on what does Alice want watch? Like, what do you think her? Because she could just let Damon go. She could let him mount cracks. He's fly off. The Riverlands would not align behind him. Yeah. I don't think that Alice believes that that means war would not come to the Riverlands.

I think everybody in the realm, the show has gone to pains this season to make clear that no matter where you are, whether you're in the Vale or the Twins or the Riverlands or anywhere, you know that you're not going to escape this. What is Alice, why does Alice choose to help Damon here? I don't know and I can't. I mean, I have some spoiler stuff that I want to talk about on this front, some book spoiler stuff, but in the context of what the show is given us, I find that I don't know.

And I'm excited to hear what Gilrican thinks about. this. And Ryan Cuddle and Tara Hess, of course, but like, I don't know. I find I find everything that Gill has said about Alice so far to be so fascinating. Great interview with Roxanna Hadidi over at a vulture with Gil. So like, I'm really fascinated to hear what she thinks. I find myself confused in a way that excites me and not doesn't frustrate me. How do you feel? Yeah. Yeah. Same, I think. The one line that I was kind of like latching onto was, rivermen are made of mud. Like the way that she was just describing

the stubbornness and the state of play in the region and the way that like, because it just kind of heightens that I think question we have of like this maybe longer connection, older, mysterious, mystical connection that she has to this place. For me, the most crucial line was,

you were not the player, but a piece on the board. as am I for that matter. So that she thinks of herself as just a piece in the war and not the player is interesting. That all feels connected because it's like,

okay, Rivermen or made a mud, so unless I help, we're not going to maybe, the thing that needs to happen won't happen for what end to what purpose. This is, I guess, connects this like,

is Alice a skin changer or the owl? Is Alice a greenseer? We've mentioned, we've talked about in other episodes, like the proximity to the aisle of faces, the idea that the children,

you know, like, when we talk about the player, like, who's the player then? Like, what kind of old magic is driving or is motivating maybe what Alice is talking about? So that's all really interesting. Just in general, again, I think it's cool to be in a point in the timeline where, like, you know, we've talked about, like, the Lewin brand season two conversation a lot in other episodes where like, Llewins just like, the dragons are gone, the giants are dead, and the children are the children are the the far as forgotten, right? And to be in a moment in the story where like, there be dragons. You know, it's just, it's a rich moment to think of like what other magic is driving affairs. And how is Alice connected to it? I can't wait to find out. Not since Peter Sarsgaard on the finale of

presumed innocent said, well, what if she never consumed the Rangoon? That's all, that's not a spoiler. What if she never, what if she never consumed the Rangoon? Generally, one of my favorite things I've ever heard. You putting your finger in the air and declaring, here me dragons is one of my favorite things I've ever heard through the COVID fog. Okay. We'll go back to this hilarious quote. We've mentioned a few times, but this idea of Heron Hall is a place of judgment, right?

It passes judgment on all who pass beneath its gates. So this idea that, like, folks watching at home who don't like this storyline and feel it's going nowhere, I wildly disagree. And I feel like we're really pushing Damon towards growth. We call it growth. character development. And he passes the death by offering empathy and support for his brother in this moment, as you said, that never happened.

This is the brother. If he told himself a story that he was a good brother, which I think Damon has told himself that story that he was a good brother to Vassaris, and then had to confront this idea that he made his own brother like weep on the throne earlier. and then here's a dream where in he gets to be the good brother that he kind of maybe thought he was. Interesting email from our listener Sarah jumping a little bit ahead on the Reneura stuff, but Sarah says, Renair this episode uses fear and violence to exhibit power slapping Lord Keltigar,

more sexually liberated, dominant, making out with Missaria, and more impulsive with her dragons taking Sarah X to go investigate Adam and Seasmoke. Damon acts more like Reneer this episode, focusing on love, Reverend Sor of Vassaris, asking for counsel from others and listening to it, waiting for things to happen instead of charging out without a plan. It'll be interesting to see if they strike a balance between these two sides of who they are and who they wanted to be like. And this is in response to that thing that Reneira says later. So perhaps I should have saved that email for them. But I do find that interesting, this idea of, like, we've been talking so much about, like, Allison walking Reneira's path.

But this idea that, like, Reneera and Bissar and Damon have to be sort of, like, pushed towards, like, each other. See, it's for marriage. Yeah. I mean, you know, we hear Reneer talk about two halves of the same whole, but also, like, that idea of possession, like, which, you know, when she's saying that to Miseria on describing Damon, like, he wanted to possess, but you didn't want to be possessed. Obviously, she means more in terms of the dynamics of their relationship, but then you can apply it into this literal possession that is. taking place here at Heron Hall, right? And, you know, I was thinking, too, of just that moment, like, when Damon sees, in the, in the context of, like, pushing through and passing the test of, you know, colladryl. Like, just like, collateral, Damon is past the test.

The, is he going to diminish? I don't think so. I don't think he intends to diminish. You know, the way that he's like, all right, what do I fear? What do I long for? What do I regret? This was a moment that I failed. I was not here.

He needed me. I told Reneer at the funeral, your father needs you now more than ever. I could clock it. I knew what he needed, but I couldn't give it to him. I'm going to now imagine what that would have been like so that I know how I failed. Like I was thinking of when he saw Viseris at Lina's funeral and Vassaris was like, the gods can be cruel. And Damon just looked at him and how he had like started, you know, like shedding body parts.

It was like, it seems they've been especially cruel to you. And like the idea of like the cruelty of the gods and what is visited upon you and Damon having his torment and his trial and like can that lead to true healing for him is then I think the question

so we did talk of Thrones I told you I was going to hit you with some owl stuff and did COVID prevent me from doing that nay it shall not verily so here we go

which stuff go really briefly we got a bunch of owl emails these are only a few. Our listener, Olivia, said, in Native American culture, the owl is a sign of death. If you've seen killers

of the flower of moon, you'll remember the significant scenes of owls visiting Molly's mother and later herself while on their deathbeds. Kat, who sent us an entire Troops course syllabus.

It is a masterpiece. This is only one little morsel of this feast that she sent us. She says, uh, the legend of, of La Lachusa is one that can be heard all over Mexico.

It is said that a La Chuzza or owl is a brouca or witch that is taking the form of this owl out of vengeance. So that's this idea that owl crops up again and again in mythology to signify one thing or another. But the one that I think is really maybe perhaps most on Condal in the writer's minds is perhaps this Welsh version. our listener Maggie wrote in there is this Welsh figure I am Welsh but please forget my pronunciation I believe it is Bladayweth which is this owl figure

that I'll talk about in a second but Maggie was looking into how I was sigils in a song of ice and fire that have owls in them and she found that George created House Garner and a member of House Garner is Alan Garner spelled A-L-Y-N Garner Alan Garner is the name of a Welsh writer who wrote a book called The Owl Service in 1967, a Welsh YAA book that I have read.

That's a retelling of the story of Blood Ayweth myth. And that book takes place in the 1960s and about a group of people who get sort of locked into essentially playing out the events of this myth. And the events of this myth, basically Bladaywith is a woman created out of, there's this guy he's cursed to never know the love of a human woman. Bummer. Huh? bummer. Okay. And I actually believe it's his mom who did this to him.

So you'll never know the love of a human woman. And so some friendly neighborhood mages were like, what if we make you a woman out of subflowers and various weeds and brambles? And he's like, great, hot, love it. So they make him an extremely hot woman. And they call her blood a with, which means flower face. And then as women in Welsh tales are want to do sometimes, she fucks around. on her intended here.

And when this is discovered, the person who changed her from flower into human changes her into an owl. And it's sort of like a creation method explains why owl, certain owls have faces that might look like they have a flower on them, like a flower face sort of thing.

So this like Welsh sort of goddess, witch magic figure that it was like flower, made of flowers and then turned it to an owl. And the, what I'm, love thinking about in terms of the owl service, the book by Alan Garner, which written in 1967,

takes place in the 60s, is about this cycle, this spiritual cycle where every generation, three people are forced to basically enact the events of this Bloody Way with myth. Like, two guys and a girl

are sort of locked into, as avatars, into reenacting this. And only by breaking that cycle at the end of the book, spoilers for the owl service, are they able to sort of like break this curse of having to reenact this mythical story of this owl woman and these two men. And just thinking about Damon breaking out of this cycle at Heron Hall, thinking about owls and Welsh people and witches and all the sort of stuff like that, I just thought I would bring that up.

Intriguing. But the fact that like... That's some bird? 12th doctor. Little 12th, that's some bird. Love it. That's my contribution. Breaking out of a cycle.

Breaking out of a cycle. But I love that like... George can sometimes do the dumbest things like Oscar and Grover and Kermit Tully. And then sometimes he's like, you know, I liked that owl service book. It was a classic. And he's like, you know, I like that. So I'll do House Garner, Alan Garner. I'll put some owls on a sigil for in honor of this author that I like, which I thought was really fun.

Wonderful stuff. Less fun. Love it. Less fun than calling in owl to you, which also made me. think of Shogun and Toranauga, but less than that is what happens to Stefan Darkland. We're just going to spend a quick second in honor Sir Seffen Darklin, who is dead now. Anything you want to say about Sir Seventh? Yeah, I mean, the cruelty of hitting the three-hour mark on our COVID cast and not having

time left to talk about the dragon stuff, devastating blow. Let's see. what do I want to say about Sir Stephan? You know, I thought that all of this was interesting. I like the idea of like the queen's guard as a starting point for, you know, obviously, Reneer is like, hey, we found out Ariana Targaryen Princess, your grandma's grandma, which that's like a new character, not somebody we knew. So that's interesting. Yep, yep, good stuff. But I liked the just like in general,

pro, okay, Queen's Guard, someone who is definitely willing to die for you. And someone you can trust. Yes, Khan. You compromise your strength even further if this goes badly. Yeah, on the trust front, I was thinking, of course, of like Stefan's season one loyalty test that Damon made Stephen and Laurent go through, right?

If you choose treachery, if you swear filthy now only to turn your, later turn your clothes, then no, you'll die screaming. It's like, well, I don't know. It's one thing, it's one thing to like... He died screaming anyway. It's one thing to swear feal tea in front of Keraxies.

It's another to put on a whole costume and smuggle your queen into Kings Landing, which I feel like was Stefan's real test of loyalty. It's a true act of heroism. No, yes, I just mean, you know, sort of like died screaming in any of tough stuff. I got it. I got it. The approach, the way that Stefan approached C-Smoke, you know, I thought It was an interesting mix of reaching for your sword as like a first reflex.

Not good. Wouldn't do it. And then moving right to the, you know, I've, giving the commands and then right. And then from that until like, I've done it. Celebrated a little early. None of that went well, obviously. I thought this was heartbreaking in a number of ways. Like, C-Smoke, obviously, he bends his neck at first.

He leans down. Like, he wants the bond so badly. I can't wait to talk about him choosing Adam. We know how lonely he is, but this was just, this was not right. It was interesting to hear the Dragon Keeper sing the same lullaby that Damon sang to Vermethor because, like, we have the lyrics.

The price has been paid with blood magic line, like really feels just worth sharing as we move towards, speculating on some of the possible, what are the explanations for Adam and C-smoke-paring, etc? Because, like, we always have this question, this, you know, this history with old Valeria and the blood mazes and the blood magic that tied the dragon riders to the dragons to consider there. So that was very interesting. But also it made me think, like, again, when that, I don't know, when that dragonkeeper slices his throat, I'm just like, this feels like a blood magic thing to me. I just don't know what the other explanation for that is.

You die burned alive by dragon- You die faster. from bleeding out than from dragon fire? Yeah. I saw Randall and Tickon Tarley turned to ash in like four seconds. 2.2 seconds from drogan burning. No, I think it's to put yourself out of your own misery to die faster than burning. I think...

It looks like he and Stefan died at the same time anyway. Feels like a blood magic thing to me. I'm standing on that corner. That's my corner. Lonely. What a lonely sad corner for you to stand on. Do you think the lyrics of that song with clear eyes? to bind the three is a Friday Night Lights reference.

It's amazing how it's impossible to think of anything but Coach Taylor, or when you see clear eyes. Literally impossible, I think. Absolutely demented cut from Stefan on fire to Adam at the shipyard. And Corliss is calling Alan's name and we get to the Valerian voice. Here comes the Hamilton reference. Alan wants nothing to do with Corliss. Who wants everything to do with him, right?

Legacy, legacy, legacy. I'm thinking about it. Corley says, I was younger than you when I took my first command. This is literally, as you just quoted Harry Potter, this is literally alive from Hamilton. When Chris Jackson is Washington says to Hamilton, I was younger than you are now when I was given my first command. This is the second time Hamilton has come up. So I feel like someone on the writing stuff is either a Hamilton fan. I feel like they're a Hamilton fan, possibly in the way that they listened to it so much when it first came out, as did I,

that it's just sort of cooked into their brain and just sort of like comes out in sentences. I don't know that they're necessarily like, I'm going to do a Hamilton lyric here. I feel like it's just sort of like cooked their noodle a little bit. But maybe that's the COVID talking. Alan trying to beat the Nepo baby allegations by keeping his hair hidden. You love to see it. This is a very fascinating, lengthy part of the House of the Dragon Bills inside the episode. And then we get this back and forth between the brothers.

And this is where I was like, I would love you more of this. But this refers to something that Steve Cheson said to us, And the interview that we had with him where he talked about how the boys grew up sort of in the shadow of drift mark, right? And Alan says, as we said, the whole of our lives in the shadow, the sea snake's great castle,

I do not wish to dwell in it any longer. To me, as we noted, there are many different ways to be a crippled, bastard broken thing in Georgia R. Martin's universe. But this specific preoccupation of the unacknowledged bastard the way that I was just thinking about John Snow as I sometimes do

when I watch House of the Dragon John Snow doesn't want the throne, right? I don't want it in like sort of the Allen model but he did want some acknowledgement from Ned. He wanted love from Kat. That would be nice. That's sort of like I feel like these two guys are representing like two halves

inside of John Snow which is like or not that John Snow is that conflict on the front. It's just like I don't have ambition for that. But I do want to be a part of that, you know? And, and Adam seems to like, he's just like full of piss and vinegar and has like just wants, you know, and feels like he's owed. And we can't help but agree. And Alan's just like, leave me the fuck alone to scrape my particles. But at the same time, like, he could have moved away. Like, why is he still live? Why is Alan still live here in the shadow of Driftmark?

He's got, you can scrape barnacles almost anywhere along the coast. Why are you still here? My guy. I'm not saying he should have to leave. I'm just saying, if he's, if, he's that repulsed by Corliss or Drift Mark, why hasn't he left yet? And on a character level, that's interesting to me. Yeah, I like how totally distinct they seem in their relationship to ambition and what Corlis, like, represents in that respect, but just like in terms of how they're programmed, right? And like, you know, when Adam says, so you've been, you know, little your great opportunity. Or he says, do you never think about what could be ours? And in this scene, like, it sets the stage for the C-Smoke pairing quite nicely. And like, it's something that

we've been hearing from Adam since we met him. Like, in the second episode of the season, when he was talking to Ellen to serve with the C-Snake is to make your fortune, if I had such a chance, I would leap at it. Or another opportunity to distinguish yourself. Like, when C-Smoke pursues at him and stares him and looks at him and sniffs him. Couldn't help I think of John, a drogan sniffing, uh, sniffing John. It's just sniffing for that. Sniffing for a certain, I'm looking for something in the blood there. What's the, what's the M count on this one? Anyone seen Torben? Does he have any, anyone have a syringe? You know, like, we know. We, I think what you said at the top of the episode is really right. It would be great if we'd

have more time with these characters, but we, in our limited time, like, it's unmistakable to us that Adam won't miss that chance once he's going to hop on with a woohoo. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just, yeah, I mean, it's just, when he's like finished shitting himself, uh, in fear. And I loved the sequence. I loved in, and like, and the way that like Clinton Liberty is like, the actor who plays Adam is like so excited that he gets to talk about the fact that he's a dragon rider now. Who would it be? Um, and he, and he, his socials are just like my favorite thing that he posted was on tic-tock he posted like he did the leo pointing meme like he sat in a chair and then just like snapped and pointed at the screen and then it like

it's like him on the screen is very cute great stuff i would also be thrilled if i got to become a dragon writer i just makes complete sense to me i hope he's having the time of his life this is the most shocking thing you've ever said miller i'm thrilled for clinton i'm thrilled for adam i'm thrilled for For C-Smoke, I'm thrilled for us. I'm thrilled for the magical creature lovers and the dragon lovers. I'm thrilled for all of us who are interested in the bond between a dragon and rider and learning more about it. We're running along. We're both exhausted.

I'll really quickly rehash what we talked about on Talk to Thrones because I think it would be an auto mission to not hit it on our deep dive today. But the two questions with this pairing that are just worth quickly hitting, there's the living rider question and the Adam Blood question. Which we should say we've been talking about this ad nauseum. in the spoiler section, but how lovely to bring it into the main. Not for years. Yeah. Actually years. Literally years.

Since Lena lived, we've been like, wait, how are they going to, because that was a show update. So how are they going to pair sea smoke with Adam if his rider is still alive? Because our understanding, based on canon, is that a dragon cannot take another rider if their rider lives. So we were like, what are they going to do? How are they going to explain this? Now, it is certainly possible that the explanation is Lainor was killed off screen.

I remain really opposed to that and just think that would be exceedingly, exceedingly strange if they did this big thing and made this change and caused all these odd political complications for Nira and then we're just kidding. And the whole point of it was like, Lain or go live your life. Maybe they'll tell us that's what happened at some point.

But who the fuck knows? I think it's more interesting ultimately. Chris was confused by me saying, I've been worried about this, but now I like it. I had been worried about whether this was going to be canon shattering and how they would explain this. What I like about it is that

because George R. Martin is constantly saying in the text, we don't know anything about this. Like we're just looking for any little shred of evidence or data that we can say, now we understand something about the nature of this bond. Maybe the answer is, Seaspoke decided that being abandoned was not acceptable to him.

And that is the same to him as his rider being dead because he left him. It's fine. And so why should he live his life alone unpaired? Because Lainor went to have an adventure and to live his life the way he wanted. Now C-Smoke just has to be alone. I decided to live my life the way that I want, which is to not be worried about this anymore. But I just don't understand why C-Smoke, how did Lainor convince C-Smoke not to follow him?

Did he throw rocks at him like Nimeria? Like, why wouldn't C-Smoke just fly across, you know, the water to follow Lina or wherever he went. Maybe he was like, I don't want you anymore. Maybe that's why C-Smok's been crying. Wornfully. A devastating. Very sad. DM count. So very quickly, the, okay, what is, what is Adam? Adams, what's the blood here? So we should say in the book, there's like speculation that Adam and Alan are Lenor's sons before the coreless possibility arises. Obviously in the show, there's just no universe where that's the case. They are cordless of sons, period. So here are the, because of the like, you got to be a tariff to ride, like backdrop of all of this, which like is in.

Raneiro would discuss, right, is a question, right? So in the fifth episode of this season, Reneira says, a dragon will only accept a dragon lord to ride it, or so say the histories. And Jace replied, Valerian histories, written to gild us in glory. So let's keep that in mind, right? And let's also keep in mind that there were 40 dragon riding families

in Old Valeria. The Targaryens were just one of the dragon riding families, hardly the most powerful. They're just the one that survived, the doom. So other families could ride. They were other families with the blood of Old Valeria. Okay. So here are the possibilities.

One, anybody can ride no matter their blood. Anyone. Anyone. This is all, it's not just specific targ propaganda. It's like all of this is propaganda. Anyone could do it. They just haven't tried because they didn't think they could. Two, Adam has the blood of old Valeria.

He doesn't have Targaryen blood, but he's got blood from one of those other dragon riding families somewhere in the family history there. That blood magic that leads to, to that bond. Three, Corlis might have a drop of Targaryen blood in his bloodline. It's possible the Targaryens and the Valerians have intermarried over the years. Let's not forget, Agon the Conqueror's mother was Valerian. Jeharis's mother was a Valorian. Lots of marriages between these families over the years. So that's possible. Four, Adam's mother was a dragon seed

or the daughter or granddaughter of a dragon seed. So that would be the side on which the Targaryen blood if you do in fact need that dragon, uh, dragony targ blood comes into play or five. C-smoke is like, you and my prior writer have the same father, Corlis, and you're both extremely good looking. That as well, yes. Like he made an exception because the similarity to Lainor is the thing that matters more to him. And it's this like one more, yet another instance of George being like, just,

the full eager at you know nothing about the bond and giving us a new data point. And for the people of the realm and the people writing the histories, they don't know Lainor's alive. So they don't, they're just like, his writer died and then he paired with a new writer. Here we go. They're not asking those questions in fire and blood because they don't know that Lainor's alive. Last thing on the atom front, I just, because in the Reneiro Masaria scene, which we actually haven't talked about. Yeah. We, it was a reckless thought that was an ancient Valerian beast, that an ancient Valerian beasts would suffer a Darkland to ride it, like Roneira's response to what happened with Stefan.

You know, looking for the highborns, thinking Stefan had a chance because he's from House Darkland, Duskendale, Nobleborn, Jason's plan, his like, whole, oh, Gildos of Glory. He's still like, what about the other Targaryens who didn't rule but married into Highborn family? So how will they receive this news? Like, is it going to be,

oh, my God, we can cast a wider net? Is it going to be, well, this, is like a threatening thing. Like we've been talking about this since the Maley's head parade, right? The idea of kind of like chipping away at this illusion. Is that going to be how Reneera greets this? Or is Reneer going to welcome what this means? I'm really curious to see what, uh, what she does now that she has flown off on

Caraxies in pursuit. On Syrax. Yeah. Okay. So we... Excuse me. Yes. Now that she has flown off on Syracx.

That's how you know Mallory's tired. She got a dragon name wrong, which she literally. has never done in all the time and I've known her. COVID. All right. Let's talk about Raina and Lady Jane, just really briefly to just say, here we are in the veil. There's giant massive dragon here, stealing sheep.

And tiny baby storm cloud, more importantly to me. Okay. Tiny baby storm clown, massive dragon stealing sheep. Raina seems not thrilled by her job as babysitter. She's nice enough to joff, but just not seem a natural at it. Or Josh. She's like, I want that. She's like, Lady Jane, Aaron, he lied to me.

There is a big fuck-off dragon in the veil. What are you talking about? Jane Aaron's like, yeah, it was wild. So what good is it to me? I don't know. I can't tame it. And also, like, if I told you there was a giant dragon here, would you have sent one of your other dragons here? Like, you know what I mean?

Like, I feel like Lady Jean had every good reason to keep this a little bit of a secret. Will, Raina, have a chance to meet this tall, dark, and smoky dragon stranger before Lady Jane plunks her on. the gay abandon a ship bound for Pentos. This, just everything in the storytelling DNA in my life, this would be a massive change for Raina if this happens. We go back and forth on this, about like whether or not we can talk about this stuff in the non-spoiler section, like, because I'm like, but it feels weird not to talk about it because like it's not in the book.

So it's not a thing that I know is going to happen. It's just every single storytelling indication is that Raina, the character we've heard five times this season, tried and failed to click. I'm a dragon. Raina, who since we first met her, is like, I wish I had a dragon. I wish I had a dragon. There's a big dragon in the veil, and Raina's like, hmm, like, that's, that's, how is that going to go?

I don't know because it's not in the book, so I don't know. But like, are they on some kind of collision course? It feels inevitable. Okay. Rainier and Masaria, I'm so glad that we saved this extremely juicy section for last and we were both a bit tired. This coupling between Raniara Masari, it's not quite a coupling yet. This is mooching.

Coupling. Thank you. This is an old book reader theory. In Fire and Blood there's this line where Reneera says, Let demons like his hungers where he will and we shall do the same. You know, and it's just sort of like a, I don't know how that could not have launched a million different fan fictions for people who think Masari and Raniara are together at some point. So as we've discussed on Talk to Thrones elsewhere in this episode,

we really do think that this Misaria scene is meant to align with the Larisine and with the Alice scene where it's like these are three people making a bid for proximity to power by using actual genuine vulnerabilities in their own life to do so. I think she does believe in Renira. I think she does want to share her own vulnerabilities about what happened to her. but I think she also wants this proximity to power and perhaps revenge on the Hightower's if it's on offer because Otto Hightower, she thinks, burned down her pleasure house in Kings Landing. And Reneer, in the meantime, is infighting with her own questions of gender and is there a way for a woman to rule without the trappings, sword, violence, etc. of a man. Let's hear Reneer herself on the subject.

My own son questions my capabilities. I think I need Damon at my side. And Damon himself. He has ever done what suits Damon. He was everything I wanted to be. Carefree. Dangerous. A man.

And I was what he wanted. Cherished by my father and made my father's heir. He were halves of a whole. He wished to possess me but not to be possessed. And to see me take hold finally of what he always believed to be his. fear what he may now do. I fear he may have turned against me. It is more his way to disappear.

In either case, I've lost him. And corrects he's with him. I think it's fascinating that ending there, like the way that she's thinking about Damien as not just a husband, but like a piece on her warboard. Because like you lose a husband. To lose a husband is a misfortune. To lose a husband and a dragon. Carelessness.

this, like this sexy scary dragonrider coalition that they formed it later, his funeral has been fractured. On this, like, people questioning Reneer and how she's responding throughout this episode. Do you want to talk about her slapping the face off of Lord Keltigar in the hallway? I couldn't have loved this more. Just, Keltigar haunting her steps to be like, most regrettable, if perhaps foreseeable, And, you know, saying that calling her approach sensational, like the gall to spend all season being like, do nothing, I did do nothing. Let us do it. Just go for a spot. They do nothing. And then, like, to paint her action as sensational and rash and reckless, the haste with which Reneer turned around slapped him. And then the delivery of, it is my fault, I think that you have forgotten to fear me. I just loved everything about that. The performances, like the little, like, eye flicker from Kelms. the car the way.

Who saw that later? We hear Jace, like, the castle is a buzz. Of course, how could it not be? But I just loved everything that was driving that for Renera, because it's, it's impatience, it's frustration. Like, it is a loss of control in a way that I think

Reneira plenty of points in the story would really have regretted. But she feels completely vindicated in it here. And how could she not? Like, you're made to sit still and be quiet until it all just boils over. And it's the same exact. thing on display when she rushes to the dragon mount to climb on to Syrax and fly after when Lawrence like, should I assemble your counsel? She's like, fuck that. I'm going to go do it myself. Finally, nobody's going to tell me not to. I'm going to slap this guy in the face and tell him

to remember who I am and nobody's going to tell me not to. And like that's the point that it's gotten to for her. And then you balance that with, I thought like the Renier's used were so good in this episode. And the measure, there's a lot of like heat and emotion that is fueling what Rainira is saying, but the measured thoughtful assessment with which, you know, we move from her like trying the sword and then, and Masaria's like, this becomes you. We had heard in the fifth episode, she's like, you know, she's like, I never learned the difference between Hilton the foible, right? They know it. I was never taught that. You know, and then you built to something like the J-S scene. And it's just really measured thoughtful assessment of like, what do people expect

from men, from women, from me, I bring to mind too much their mothers or their daughters. They must see in me a ruler and the symbols of authority are not jewels and gowns, but the shield and the sword. Like, I thought this was so amazing

because it's how Reneira thinks other people perceive her, but also it is what she genuinely thinks she lacks. She has grown to worry that she lacks. There's a reason that she's studying Vesania. Right? She's like, this is a thing that I don't possess

that I need or I'm not going to be able to do this. So the thing that other people doubt in her has become her own genuine insecurity. And I think she's determined to correct. Something she's lost touch with, like, when she leaves, when she sees Kings Landing to Allison and leaves. And Lainor, in that episode,

Lainer's like, you always said that if she left, like, you know, she boxed you out entirely. And she's just like, my family, you know, essentially her family's more important to her in that moment, that like peace of mind for her and her children and stuff like that. And so, like, I think that the fact that she has embraced the role of mother for so long, that we always praise her for being a kind, warm, mothering figure to her children,

this is like a real, like, lean-in moment. Can you have it all? Can you devote yourself to that? Because we've got, we got, I cannot even begin to tell you how many emails we got last week. and I don't know why Last week was the breaking point from people being like, where's the old Rainer? I miss the old Reneer.

This is the new Kanye. I miss the old Kanye. Like where is like Reneer we met in season one, played by Milly Alcock, who would just like hop on her dragon, you know, walk through a campsite covered in blood. Fuck her Kingsguard.

Like all this sort of stuff. Like like where is she? Um, I miss her. Here she is like, she's like hopping on a dragon, slapping Keltegar. Uh, kissing an employee at a moment when probably she probably shouldn't.

That's classic season one, Rainira. This is what some people were clamoring for. And I'm excited to see where we go from here. But it's interesting that she's just like, I tried it a certain way. I tried it my father's way or I tried it like the way that we tell women to do, which is be quiet, listen, take counsel from other people. people, blah, blah, blah. You know, try to broke her peace.

Try to, you know, keep things calm. Listening to Renice, which she should, like, listen to Renice. But now Renice is dead, man. You know, Renice is gone. And Luke's gone. And Luke is the one who, in the end of season one, Luke is like, I'm not like you. So perfect, you know? So that shot and her, she had to send her other children away.

So that like adoration of her children, that reflection back, Damon's gone. That like sort of like I'm like someone's partner. I'm someone's wife. Like did you find what you were seeking? Like all of those or stuff. Like that's gone. And so it's just Jace who I love. But Jace gently also undermining her.

You know? And just sort of like, you know, and she's just like fucking Damon, Damon, Damon. Like are you kidding me? Like, you know, I love this progression for Rainira as a character. I love this performance from Emma as a tremendous actor who can play all these notes. Our frustration with Renira this season, if you had any at home, is not a bug. It's a feature. It's like, yeah, Renair is also frustrated with who she's become and who she's had to be this season.

and now we're seeing how is that popping out going forward, you know? Yeah, like I think for Rainer to reach the point where she says out loud, I do not think I can win this war. That is a meaningful moment for her to have to confront, right? And like, the Jace callout is, you know, it's interesting because I think on the one hand, he's like, my mother's my ruler and I do not wish otherwise, or it was a bold attempt. I admire you for it. There's like this real kinship and love and belief.

between them, but then also, like, he's top of her list when she's, like, saying to Misaria, like, my own son questions me, how am I ever going to get this done? You know, how? And I thought that the way that she, like, Reneer moved in from, into then, like, explaining, like, in that clip we heard, you know, the nature of her relationship with Damon and, like, what did they, what they, like, provided each other, which, like, almost strikes me. It's much, I mean, lust is still, I think, I play there. but it's less like true love, genuine affection and more like survival instinct,

coveting, you know? And that was like an interesting way to think about the seed of their union and then like whether they can evolve beyond that or even just whether that can bring them back together again, right, arriving at a new moment of need. I love what the blend in there from Rainira is empathy, right? To be able to think what was I that, I mean, this is a little bit like, I've been in too much therapy, Reneera mode. Let me analyze exactly what Damon wanted exactly what I wanted.

As someone who's been in too much therapy, I support it. But the empathy that's available to her inside of her frustration with Damon here, I think, is a fascinating part of Reneira. As far as the kiss between Runeira and Masaria, both Emma Darcy and Sonoyamazuna have been giving interviews talking about how this kiss was improvised. It was something that Emmett Darcy concocted in the moment. There have been some pushback from people. We got a lot of very strong-feeling emails from people saying, like, they thought it was, you know, they didn't really love the close juxtaposition between Masaria's sort of confession of her own sexual trauma to then, like, a kiss. And then I've heard plenty of takes from people being like, actually, that's exactly when, especially queer women. perhaps will be like,

here's an opportunity for a sexual or romantic experience outside of that trauma experience at the hand of a man or something. You know, there's like a lot of complicated factors here. I don't think there's one easy, clean way to read this. I don't think anyone would say this is an uncomplicated thing that happened between these two characters. But I think there is also some uncomplicated aspects of it.

Like, Sanoia says in an interview with the rap, she was talking about how, she's like, I don't think either one of these women, like, has been hugged this way in a long time, maybe ever. The simplicity of that, what that offers is so important. Yeah. I think there's, like, the, there's a really, you know, the way that Masaria says, like, you have me, right? There's this real, when Masari is explaining that she thinks Renera actually would be a good one. ruler. It has the qualities to be a good ruler and to further

Masaria's desires to protect the small folk, etc., etc., etc. There's all of that, but like, two people in that moment who seemed to feel just real gratitude that somebody else sees their worth, that felt like very palpable in the scene. I would round this out with an email we got from our listener, Neve,

and then we'll head into the spoiler section, Neve, and I believe I would pronounce it correctly, he said, The confirmation without a shadow of doubt of Reneer's bisexuality is a vital piece of her character and her story. It has always been there inside her when her mother told her her battleground would be the birthing bed,

when she talked about running away with Allison, when Allison told her that was silly to even think about, when she longed to fight and ride and be allowed to all the rights that men had, when she was forced to parade herself around the country to find a husband she didn't want. When Allison shamed her and felt betrayed

that she had a sex with a man, when Allison betrayed her by marrying her father, when she told Lanar she was happy, he was the way he was, and they invented their own model of family facing censured every turn when she helped him escape and have something like the life she once dreamed of having when she risked her life on the hope that whatever made of her relationship with Ellicent could end the war and on and on and on. I love pulling that thread all the way through of Runeeris, both her sexuality and then also this question of gender,

which is separate but entangled at the same time. I'm really interested to see where this goes. I'm fascinated. This is a really cool and exciting thing. I think C-Smoke claiming Adam, which is a fun way to diagram that sentence, right? Seas Smoke is the one who claims Adam, right? And, you know, Masaria and Raneer here are the two things I think that people really got excited about this episode, among other things. Let's go now, briefly, alas, because genuinely we are on our final licks here through our book spoilers section. Multiple choice question for you at the top here, Molly Rubin.

Does Jason Lannister's lion? A. Eat Jason Lannister. B. Clash with a direwell from the north that the graveyors are bringing down. I looked up the BVY timeline. It checks out. Gets absolutely torched by a dragon.

D. None of the above, but we see the lion limping and singed and bloodied at the fish feed as a symbol of House Lannister's utter failure. What is your pick here? I think D seems probably most likely, but I'm very intrigued by A. If Jason Lister gets eaten by his own line, I'm going to have a great day. Helena in the scrum of the riot gets pushed up against a bunch of spikes on the wall.

This is a sad little preview of how she will end her life. Perhaps if it goes according to the books on some spikes in the dry moat that Magar, a real normal guy built around a a tower in Kingsland. The songless cricket. Any other theories? I liked the idea of Darren who has put down the loot to come to war really cracked me up as one that I saw floating around. For me, it was the cut from Gwain to that. Like, cut from Gwain being like goodbye to the lady being like, this cricket saves dead.

I don't know. I'm just like, again, Gwayne High Tower is nowhere near the fish feed, the battle that we are assuming is going to be the subject of the finale of the season. He's a member of the gold cloaks. He's in Kings Landing, but he does die in Kings Landing. So if he stuck around Kings Landing, he wouldn't make it out of the season anyway. So if he's going to the Riverlands to die to give us, like, as we mentioned in previous spoiler sections, some characters at the fish feed we actually care about, aka Kristen Cole,

Gwain Heightower, then I'm sorry, I'm Missy, buddy. Yeah, I'm hoping that he finds a way to survive and go join Taryn and the High Towers. I need, let's get, let's get Queen at least to Honeywine, please. I just am not ready to say goodbye yet. I'm going to put that on some march. Get him to Honey Wine at least. All right. I mean, once we're safe, now that we're saving Honey Wine for season three, we might as well get Queen there.

Get him, get him there, please. The Shepherd, there is the man who gets his arm chopped off in the riot. It's probably not the shepherd. The shepherd is an unhinged religious, one-armed leader of the small folk who is anti-dragon and will be a major figure. I think like the high sparrow, but more unhinged and less one-arm. And so this is probably not the shepherd, or if it's meant to be the shepherd, they're going to recast them because they're going to, this is a stunt guy. They're going to cast, like, someone to play the shepherd. But like, but this felt like a little nod to that of like.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Raina and the Nettles erasure, this one goes out to our, our pal David Jacoby, seems inevitable at this point. People are really frustrated by this, or some people are, really frustrated about this idea that Raina is going to take over the Nettles role. And Jacobi, among them, the argument is we really like this narrative that Nettles is something. someone without Targaryen blood who just like sort of slowly by feeding him sheep sort of drew this dragon to her. What if Adam is kind of playing that role? Like if it turns out per your like run down on the list that Adam doesn't have any Targaryen blood in him and it doesn't really matter.

But he still has the blood of old Valeria through Coralus. So that doesn't, I don't think that can completely check the like it truly anyone. can ride a dragon the way that Nettles would have. I don't disagree. I just wonder if they're like, yeah. I guess we'll see how it all plays out. And if there's like another figure at all that could, I don't know. I guess I've, oh, the thing that I find myself bumping up against with the Nettles thing is that I always just kind of believe that she was Damon's daughter anyway.

So like, that's always where I was. I was just going to say, like, not that it was 100% that she had no. no blood tie. It's a theory, but we don't know for sure. Can't wait to find all of this out one. Rand is definitely going to claim that dragon. Okay. Hugh Hammer.

The hammer will fall. We saw some, we saw us out of Hugh in this episode that we had not yet seen, which is the, I will do anything for my family. I will steal a sack of food and fuck you if you get in my way. It's laid that guy out. It's justified violence,

but it is violence. And if they are moving the Hammer family to Tobleton, then we can kind of see that that's where the Hugh Hammer, Dragon Rider betrayal might happen. Jane Aaron says, a merchant cog, the gay abandon will take you to Pentos. A merchant cog. I'll send six good men to protect you on the crossing.

I'm sorry. This is not acceptable from Jane Aaron. Obviously, like, knowing what's going to happen, this is just astonishing. But, like, even, you know, I'm watching this episode with my husband. He hasn't read the books. He doesn't know what's going to happen in the gay band. And he paused the episode and was like, six men? Like, this is just crazy.

I mean, it's six men. Three royal, four royal children. If we count Raina as a child. A dragon and eggs. A dragon, eggs, and a hatchling. What are we doing, Jean? Come on. Jane sucks.

For this one. Yeah. The gay abandoned getting a mention in episode six of an eight episode season made me go like, are we going to get the gullet actually? I know. I got pulled back. I'm just the godfather three meme with gullet all season long. I just can't quit the gullet. I can't. There's no way. We just don't have enough time. We don't. We simply don't. But I start a season three. I guess they're going to let the toddlers walk to the ship and they'll get there by the beginning of season three. I don't know. What did you make of like Amand getting Otto's triarchy plot? Or do you think Otto is already also with the triarchy?

Well, just Amand being like, yeah, go, go let's, hey, let's bring the triarchy in because that's that's, that's Otto's idea in the book, right? Well, he's like, when Agon's like, why aren't you doing anything? Otto's like, I am doing something. I'm working on this plot with the triarchy. Like, do you think that we're just going to find out that Otto just is with the triarchy already? and arrives with them? Or did Eamon's pitching this to Thailand here

make it seem like Otto's not going to be connected to this, actually, which would be very odd? Otto gets his head chopped off when Rainer takes King's Landing, which is what we expect is going to happen at the end of the season. So the question is, Avin's like, bring my grandpa. He gets fired, he leaves, someone calls him back. So bring my grandpa back.

Is he coming back to King's Landing in, time to just get the chop in the final episode. And is that why we're kind of cut, because we're moving the gullet. So we're cutting him out of the triarchy conversation because he's already to be dead that like Risi Fonz is going to die in a finale. Yeah. I feel like if that were the case, they should have given us a little more time with him. I simply would not have, is just going to be. I simply would not have sent him. The arrival. Oh. Like, I don't think we'll see any fallout from it. I think it will be like they, the series of, the series of season will end with like them like,

them like landing in King's Landing and taking it. But no, no fallout, no executions. Like that all feels like season, season, season three. Maybe we're sitting on the throne and a cut. A cut, I still like. Yeah. A cut to the leg. It's a nice image to end on.

So season three episode one, Otto High Tower gets to the chop. One or two, yeah, execution. Because maybe they just want to keep him around and give us a couple more scenes. It's like, it would be really weird to keep him off screen for like, six episodes, bring them back just to kill them. So maybe that's also one of the timeline things that'll change.

Maybe Otto will just hang around in prison for a while before they execute them. And he'll get to do some great speeches. That would be nice. Oh, my God. Like in on a classic auto monologue. I was just thinking about Ned Stark and the Black Sells. Love that for us. Okay.

Alice, what the fuck is she up to? Here's a triarchy of emails from listeners. Simon writes, could Alice be playing on Damans' insecurities to drive it and Amen together in the battle of the gods eye to sacrifice the two of them plus Vagar and Keraxes in some sort of cosmic eldritch blood sacrifice? Think Yaron's Old Town blood magic shenanigans which have been theorized to come in the winds of winter. So she's just trying to get as much royal dragon blood as she can over the gods eye and just sort of drench the aisle of faces in the gods eye in royal slash. dragon blood. I find this very compelling.

Okay. Austin says, is it just me or did Amon make an enemy of Laris in the council meeting makes me wonder how Amon might get caught up in his saddle atop Vagar when he is eventually killed by Damon later in the story. Laris fucking with the ropes on Vagar, I don't know. That sounds hard. I don't know how you approach Vagar to do that, but if anyone can do it, I believe in you, Laris.

Okay, last and at least, Billy says, give her care for the Riverlands and it's small folks And let it the destruction Amon will cause there and begin to think Alice is shepherding them towards the battle above the gods eye to end Amon's raid of terror. Right? Like, we know that Alice and Amon are going to shack up together that she's going to claim to be carrying his kid. But is she like, guess what? You've torched one too many. The Riverlanders are made of mud, but I didn't say you could roast all of them. So we're going to draw David back here and we're going to get rid of both of you. Get both of you off the board, plus your dragons. Okay.

I'm so interested to see. I'm really interested to see how this goes. I'm also interested to see if there's like any, like, how much, how much equivalent time are we going to get with Amand at Haren Hall in Alice Dreamland after like the kind of mixed response? We've loved it, but not everybody has with Damon. Curious, but I think they hopefully know that they have a good thing going. Here's the thing I will say. Sanoi and Azuna in that the rap interview, I don't know if you, they very intelligently CEOed it out at December. interviews and one of them was about her accent and she says I don't know if she's just throwing them on the bus or what but she claims that they made her EADR that entire thick accent in and that she originally did the accent we're hearing this season that they made her ADR in that thicker accent last season anyway that's adjacent to the point the real point is Masaria was the thing that everyone was like what the fuck get her out of here and they're like

no, we're going to make you like her. And now she's making out with the main character. And it worked. So I hope that they're the opposite of like the Kathy Kennedy area, Lucasfilm, where they're not going to like shy away from this. They're going to be like, no, we're going to make you like it. Because I really need a lot of Eament dream stuff. Here's a subject that I, a subject line that I've stolen from my friend and yours, Neil Miller from the trial by content.

He calls it the Sunfire Revenge Tour. Rineira says, I have directed Lord Mooden to march on Rook's Rest and sent another raven to the veil to persuade all blah. So are we going to get a moment of the finale where Sunfire like pops up out of the, long in the dying Sunfire who's still alive, pops out of the tree line and makes a charcoal briquette out of Lord Mouton. I think it will be important to establish by the end of the season. Sunfire is alive.

in fact alive. Not such a good idea now, Keltsagar. All right. Rickard Thorne. This is like a way forward-looking question, but like without Mailer on the show, what is Rick or Thorne here for? What is he going to be doing? His whole job is to like, run off with the royal baby and pretend it's his and all

this or stuff like that. So we'll see what Thorne gets up to. Reneer plus Allison. Roger says with Allison's made motivation for the Civil War gone, and Reneer is queer and is clearly established. Do you think there's a possibility of a, quote, meeting between the two ladies that make shippers everywhere happy? Just a fun thing that I saw this week that I thought I would share, which is that in the where's Tudy, where's sacrifice scene that we love to talk about, here are the stage directions in the script. Reneer and Allison stand as close as they have been in 15 years.

They grapple against each other eye to eye, breath the breath. You've gone too far. I. What have I done? But what was expected of me? Allison strives against Renira. They are roughly evenly matched and the struggle is strangely intimate. So yeah, something that we're not allowed to talk about in the non-sweller section is like, yes, when those who have read the books, watch Masaria and Renira make out, we know that in like two episodes time, Reneer and Allison are going to be living in the same place again. They're both going to be in Kings Landing. How is that going to play out? Can't wait to find out. Thirling prospect. In some episodes of House of the Dragon,

I'm Joanna Robinson. I've lost my mind. That's Mallory Rubin. She's busy sleeping on the mic. I'm spent. I am spent. This was a joy. We are just about done,

but our COVID-riddled producer, Steve Almond, has to cut all this audio into a legible podcast. So shout out to Steve Alman. Are Juna? Steve, are we perhaps the culprits who have been tampering with your peace? Arjuna Rangapal, who surely has COVID burgeoning inside of him.

Has to put together a lot of details for our next recording. He's the best. Jomi Adiron. So far, COVID-free as far as we know. John Richter did not work on this episode because it's not a video episode, but I just thought I'd shout him out because he's great. and I'm sorry that we have not gotten to work within the last two weeks because of his illness and now ours. We will see you on Talk the Thrones on Sunday.

We have regained our ability to speak by then. Till then, keep your eye on. Release you of your seat. There you go. Bye. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th. the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th,

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