House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 6 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: July 22, 2024

Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin return to break down the sixth episode of  'House of the Dragon'! With Rhaenyra finding love in a hopeless place, a failed dragon claiming, and Aegon wheezing his way back to health, our hosts are here to take us through all the mayhem and intrigue. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson Production: Jack Wilson, Felipe Guilhermino, Chris Wohlers, Kevin Cureghian, Bobby Gibbons, Jonathan Frias, Ryan Todd, Cory McConnell, Aleya Zenieris, Arjuna Ramgopal, Steve Ahlman, Jomi Adeniran, Abreanna Corrales, and Yvonne Wang Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are here to break down the sixth episode of the second season of House of the Dragon. I'm Chris Ryan. This is Ringer, senior staff writer Joanna Robinson. That is the Dragon Mount Janitor herself, Mallory Rubin.

It's getting hot in here. Warm. Before we get started, I just want to remind everybody, make sure you subscribe to House of R on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. Make sure you subscribe to the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. And make sure you're subscribed to Ringervor's on YouTube so you can watch us and tons of other. stuff. Hey, this episode of House of the Dragon was pretty interesting.

Hey. I want to ask you, between how to train your dragon, Amon shuffling his cabinet, Renewr of finding love in a hopeless place. This is for both of you. What was the most interesting thing that happened in this episode? What's the big headline? Oh, the biggest, most important thing I think is that Jason Linister is for some reason bringing a lion to battle. Yeah. And I thought I should bring a lion to the podcast today, but I didn't have one. But yeah, they're waiting in some wheelhouses over there. Yeah, should I make mind that we finally got to see baby a little hatchling storm cloud?

And we just like talk about... But is that, like, legit? Or do you really think that's what, like, people should go away from this episode thinking about it? Yeah, that we saw a tiny little storm cloud? Yeah. No. I think the headline is that this was an episode about deeply broken people finally saying to themselves or out loud to another person, I am lost. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I need help. It's my fault. I need help or let me help you. And it was beautiful. It was like succession then. Okay. Let's break down the sixth episode of the second season here. We're going to do the recap. Let's do it, man. It's Jason in the streets and Thailand in the sheets, baby. No? Yeah. The Great Machine of War grinds on in this episode as both sides try to amass power, whether it's through air superiority, ground game, or backroom political dealing. I wonder where that comes. comes from. We see Tyler Lannister's twin brother Jason, who is taking in the sights at the Golden Tooth. Is that a new one for the whole Game of Thrones televised universe? I don't think we've seen the Golden

Tooth yet. You like a little key border position between the Western and the Riverlands? Jason's got a line in tow. He loves the Lannister twin. I do. It's true. You genuinely do. The slow march towards Hauron Hall continues. Back in King's Landing, Amon is acting more kingly by the day, which is to say he's being a bit of an

asshole. He wants to partner with the triarchy. He wants Kristen to march on Harron Hall, even though a lot of his men still have ash on their armor. Yeah, a lot of headbandages. In the courtyard, a lot of headbangers. And he wants his mother, take up a hobby. Allison, get off this council. He still likes his grandfather, though, and he wants Otto to be his hand, provided

Otto can be found. Speaking of hands, Corliss is done listening to Massey's Star in his room and decides to join the war effort. In his first council meeting is Renier's hand, his queen unveils her new app, Ryder, R-I-D-R-D-R-D-R-R, Did you trademark that before putting that out into the world, the public domain here? I thought about it, matching Randos with Royal Blood with Seasmoke, the dragon who loves meeting new people. Sir Darklin, come on down.

Darks is a really good sport about this, but he gets to the final rose presentation with Seas Smoke, and pride comes before the fall. And just like the San Antonio Spurs in the 2013 NBA finals, he starts celebrating too early, getting incinerated by his would-be dragon partner. RIP also to the trainer armed only with a stick who cut his own throat while dying in a fire.

He had the dagger. He had the dagger ready for the throat slicing. It seems like he was more prepared to die in fire than train the dragon. Correct. That was such a shocking moment that it made me wonder if it was a Valerian like blood mage ritual.

It just seems like the fire would kill you. Why slit your own throat? It just seems like flammable sticks is not what I would use to hurt a dragon. Oh, that's true. You got to get some sort of plastic. At Harrenall, Damon's visions have reached stunt casting proportions, and he's now recreating moments of his life

with his late brother, King Vassaris. Patty Concedon is back, but playing much of the same material he had in season one. And after our confrontation with Alice by the Wirward Tree, Damon starts to realize his place in the world. He's a piece, not a player. His reward for listening to Alice, she sends an owl hitman to kill an old man,

Grover Tully, thus putting the Riverlands houses back on the board for the blacks, I believe. In bastard and small folk news, Alan and Adam have different visions for their futures with the former seemingly wanting a life outside of Corliss's attentive spotlight and the latter wanting to be a part of history. Hugh and his family are pumping Temple of the Tog because they're going hungry.

So this is your new weekly bit. I don't think so. And Ulf is finding himself susceptible to Andy Green's gossip. I don't know why people are talking trash about the Greens. they're kind and caring people. Just ask Agon. Oh, you can't, because when he's not sleeping, he is loopy on milk of the poppy

or getting mad dog by his brother. The only person who seems to have his best interest at heart is Laris Strong. The two bond over deformity and being spurned by Amund, but one can never really trust Laris's intentions, can they? Correct. Allison Hightower has a bunch of free time now because her husband's dad, her dad is in the wind,

and she's been dismissed from the Green Council. and her lover is on his way back to war. So she reconnects with her brother and then takes Helena on a hellish adventure into the city. Their candlelighting trip coincides with a riot over dwindling food supplies among the small folk. This ends with night slaughtering said small folk, which will do wonders for the Greens polling and King's Landing.

Two more things happen. Masaria and Reneer a kiss, and Adam claims seasmoke, I think, as his dragon and starts riding around Spice Town. I have proof of both of these developments, and that was the recap. Balin-Jone. Christopher. I thought we could start from a kind of 10,000 foot above question.

Dragon's idea. Dragon's point of view. Yeah. This is an interesting episode because compared to the sort of chunk of the middle of the season that had us all running around in circles, we can't believe how insane this is, we had Reneas, we had Jaharis's death or whatever. Yeah, or whatever. Guy, a guy, a little baseball.

The twins, Eric and Arik, you cannot forget that. Eric and Eric and Eric, that were really threw me for a loop. You know, Game of Thrones, when they made the first series on HBO, it had so much guidance from the text, right? Like George R. Martin, explaining character's psychology through these POV chapters, so much action taking place in multiple locations that was eventually, like, you could see everything kind of converging. But the journey was the fun part.

And then they ran out of text, and it was fine. And they ran out of text and they nailed it. Equally as eloquence? And sensical? I would say that I'm starting to notice in House of the Dragon that they're balancing the fact that they have like, I don't know, not that much text to work from, right? So they're imbueing a lot of these characters with psychology,

with motivation, with moments of reflection that I think probably are show inventions or show embellishments. Not that that's a bad thing at all, but I was wondering if for readers like yourselves, you're starting to notice any of these sort of like the stitching going on. Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about this,

I think, for the entirety that we've been covering House of the Dragon, in that this, in the first season, there was this idea that the show was the real story. Yeah. The book, because it's told from multiple peoples, I heard this, I was there, I was this septon, a mushroom who wasn't there,

had an idea about what happened. Stand with Mushroom. So the show is the real story. Since George R. Martin has said in an interview, he's like, no, there's no real story. So it's all sort of whatever you decide. The TV show is a story. The book is a story. But until I guess George R. Martin writes a whole other book series with POV chapters,

no one can nail down exactly what happened. Unless it comes down to how many legs the dragon has and then there is, in fact, one real story. A lot of firm opinions. on that. George has a lot of firm opinions. How many legs is a dragon? Two. That's what I thought. But not on the... On the Targary Enstitial on the show

and you wrote a very long bloggerian. The wings are the front feet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll send you the link. I guess I haven't really ever considered that, to be honest. We'll send you some readings. George has. We'll send you some readings.

George has it covered. But so, yeah, I like this question because I think what we like to do when we compare the text to the show is wonder like, okay, if the stories are so different, If in this section of the story, they're like, Reneer wasn't really around, and we're watching Renera do all this stuff, then to whose advantage is it to say Reneer wasn't really around,

or locking the gaze of the city was Allison's idea, or whatever else the differences are from the page of the screen? What is the, like, propaganda, essentially that we're reading here, and whose point of view does it cut out, whose agency does it undermine, and who is it propping up? I'm almost starting to think of it as, like, pro-grained propaganda. Show? Written by Chris Ryan? Yeah.

Mr. Green? It's working. We know. We see. Yeah, one of the passages from Fire and Blood that Joe and I love and love to cite is, and here we must digress to say a word about our sources. For much of what happened in the years that followed happened behind closed doors and the privacy of stairwells, council rooms, and bedchambers, and the full truth of

it will likely never be known. And I think that felt like a huge part of why I loved this. episode. Like, this was an episode that captured that idea. Are there going to be different accounts of what happened at Rook's Rest? Sure, we've already talked about that. Like, the, your king fought valiantly. He didn't.

Who knows what Amundra? He just wanted. Who didn't, etc. So there's still, yeah, well, there's still different versions of against. Writing really hard for Team Green, I see. I see it. You are. Boy, you're hooked, man. You were in the bag. The green bag. I love it. So, like, of even something that is out and that public

and taking place in front of that many eyes, there are still going to be different accounts. But this was an episode like showcase after showcase vignette after vignette of the private conversation. And I think a throne story at its best has to be a blend of those two things. And so to get all of these moments in this episode between like two people or a few people, maybe it's in your mind or your dreams, if you're Damon, right? Maybe if you're Allison, it's at the small council chamber when your son keeps you after. Maybe it's out in the courtyard with all these people around you, but seemingly like the first honest conversation you and your brother have had with each other in years, that particular meld is what Game of

Thrones can offer, like that heart and substance and the spectacle in a way that very other few stories can. So I really loved this episode, for that reason. I thought there was a really fun example inside this episode when Ulf, when Sylvie and Diana are like earning their Oscars for their performance for Masaria in the pub where they're like, oh, did you hear what's going on the cast on the feast. They're raving again. And Ulf is sitting there and he's like, well, you know,

Vesaris, like, loved his feasts and his wine, but never while a small folk went without. And if you look in the Fire and Blood book, the drawing of Vesaris is just like party king Vesaris. It's just him jovial on the throne with like a flagon of wine and they do talk a bunch about

like he loved his wines. He had a lot of feasts. He had a lot of attorneys. That's not our impression of Vassaris. Our impression of Viseris is he loved a Lego. Yeah. He loved his history books. You know, and so this idea of, like, Vesaris, jovial party king is something that, like, came about afterwards

and from people like Ulf, you know? I think that the thing that I noticed is in Game of Thrones, it felt like almost every moment of that show wound up having a ripple effect on another moment. Like, just, or like, the next thing felt like it was related to the thing that came before. In this show, I feel

strangely enough, but also pleasantly enough, the main characters are largely isolated. I mean, they are forced out of either gender roles or the fact that they are the only reason why this revolution is happening in terms of Reneer or the fact that they've decided to go to Harenhall for a sleepless, like, dream quest. Yeah.

They're not, like, out there in the world doing stuff right yet. So it's like a lot of this is almost psychological speculation, which I think is kind of interesting. I was especially struck, Joe, by this big Masaria episode, which I believe, if my sources are correct, was a bit of a show invention at the end that Masaria and Reneera... Are starting something?

That little thing going on? Yeah. You liked it? I thought it was cool, man. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Mallor, did you hear the Alicent and Reneera shippers, like, cheer and scream with joy?

My first thought. Yeah. I think it's great. I think it's really interesting. Yeah, this is completely... Masaria is in Reneira's confidence. That's something that we knew.

But how close in her confidence we are finding out. And I think it's really interesting because Reneer is talking about, she's got that, like, her Damon, Damon, Damon line. Like, when will I ever be free of him? This idea that Reneer

has been defined as, like, Damon's wife, Vassaris's daughter, Jace's mother, like all this sort of stuff like that. She's like, when will someone see me just as like, I am Queen Rainier. I see you, girl, you look good with a sword. It looks good on you. I love it. That was great.

I really loved it. Masaria. Share trauma. Exactly. This is trauma bond and then make out. Sounds like a great Sunday night. But I think Masaria and we'll talk a little bit later about Laris and Alice are these three figures, like parallel figures, who all make this like bid.

of like intimacy and vulnerability to get closer to power. But there's an authentic like sharing and vulnerability inside of it as well that I just really loved. Reneer seems to be wrestling with like what kind of queen she wants to be and what kind of mother she wants to be. The kinds of slabs people in hallway. That's right. Tough one for Keltegaar, but I loved it. I loved it too. What kind of soldier?

What kind of lover she wants to be? And I've been, you know, I think I've been more focused on Damon's isolation now. but, like, Reneer's isolated. Like, she's been telling us, she's like, I can't fight the war that I'm being asked to fight because I'm too valuable, quote unquote, because this whole thing falls apart if it's not me specifically.

Right. And so I'm kind of isolated here, and every time I have to do something that requires a sacrifice, I have to send somebody else. Right. And that's all I really want to do is, like, kind of put my money where my mouth is

and I'm not allowed. It's been an interesting journey for her over the last couple of episodes. The quickness with which she made her, her way to the Dragon Mount. Yeah, and hop on Syrac's. To hop on Syrac's at the end. Like, there was a desperate need to get out into the free air away from all of these people

who were saying, this is what you can do, this is what you can't do. I thought that the way that she spoke about Jace to Masaria was really interesting because she's like, my own son, questions my capabilities, how I rule a kingdom when my own son doubts me. But what did we hear from, and I'm not saying that's not true. He is like, go get Damon, we need Damon, you have to say, but he is doing that also. But he was like, my ruler is my mother and I do not wish it otherwise. I mean, he says that.

Then he also was like, Mom, did you slap someone in the hallway? Well, he seemed to just really be into the gossip. He's like, the castle is a bus. In front of everyone. A bus. The trending topics are myriad. But I thought that was notable because there's a lot of positive stuff happening with Jason or near.

They are undertaking this mission for pairing riders and dragons. Together, there is a partnership there, amidstice. that everybody is feeling. And yet, because of those factors that I think you're absolutely correctly identifying, everything is amplified and feels a little bit more keen. And so I love that we got to hear Reneera basically explain why she and Damon were drawn to each other in the first place, which sort of tells us that before any of this, before the dance of the dragons, all of those things were still true, right?

Someone like Damon was going to feel like he didn't have the love of the person he cared about most in the world, Viseras, but Reneer did, and he covered. that. Reniero was going to think, like, I don't get to be free. I don't get to do the thing I want. I'm not a man, but Damon is. Like, it made me think of the conversation we had at the beginning of the season when you were like, is love dead? We talked about, well, was that ever what it was with them? And when she says two halves of one whole, it's like there was almost a practical, but like also reckless need that brought the two of them together. We can do something if we are united that neither of us can alone. And that's what so much of this episode is about fellowships and

unions and like Amon firing two-thirds of his small council. Sending away specifically like Kristen, Allison, the people who know him best. Yeah. The people who hold him in some sort of judgment

and then the people who are the most inclined to question him. He doesn't want that, right? He says he doesn't like licksbittles, but he doesn't want people who are questioning. Why is he keep Orwell there, though? Because, like, Orwell's the most, like, sassy of all the small council members.

Great run for Orwell. There's a moment later in the episode when, I mean, it's probably my favorite scene of the episode where Gwain and Allison are talking. And it's a really lovely scene just between the performers, but the writing is really good because you hear about how specifically royal families in this world just don't really know each other. Like they're either married off, they're sent away to be wards,

they go off to war, they may have different fathers and whatever, like, the situation familiarly is. And it was like, is this the first time these two have ever had a conversation at it to, she doesn't know her other brother, Darren at all. Like she's just like... Her son. Yeah, her son. Right. Her other son, Darren. Like, she's like, I'm kind of like a stranger to my own family in that way. What she really needed in that moment is to know that at least one of...

Well, Helena's pretty chill with her crickets that's saying or don't. This one's not singing anymore. Have one. Elena. This one. But, you know, like, Agon's goo, and Aman is like, you know, she's alluded to being a monster multiple times in the season. And she's like, somehow. And this is the episode where she was like, I don't think I did a great job as a mom as evidence by being fired by my son just now.

And the other one being a pile of goo. But what about Darren? Is he nice? And Gwain, the way that Freddie Fox, who was so good in this scene, the way that he would occasionally just like, look across the courtyard of Kristen Cole, not make eye contact with her and look at Kristen Cole or the sort of like doom hanging around, like back to battle. He's still

bruised in battle from the last one. But he has this moment where Freddie Foxx the actor and Gwainteau the character are just like, he's kind. Which is just such a gift he gave out of it. He's like, guess what? One of your sons isn't a psycho asshole. And I'm sure you did your best.

Like it felt like that would be the most precious things somebody could say to her especially now. And we were all like, well, well, but like an act of kindness. This is one of the things, again, there's always this connection between Allison's storyline and Rainera's storyline, and this is one of the things that Vasariah, yeah, voices to Reneira, like why does she believe in Reneera? Why did she choose Reneera, right? And it's about being stalwart, which she's using to describe Reneera.

That's actually a word we hear Gawain used to describe Darren, so another kind of like direct tie there. But the grace, like finding just an iota of grace inside of you for another person in a world like this, it was beautiful to watch Gawain. And the Kristen looks were really striking because it felt to me like when she first began engaging in conversation, he was like, I know you're not here for me. You definitely came out to say goodbye to Kristen. And she's like, I'm going to give you my favor.

He's like, oh, how nice. Yeah. You bless him. Allison definitely had the vibes at the party where somebody is like, uh-huh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Is that fun? Yes. And then, you know, so to your point not, I mean, the Darren thing was, it lets that really

poignant exchange. I also thought it was just like a hysterical and, like, a wink to the audience who was so impatient for Darren that I actually genuinely like appreciated. I didn't know you've been waiting for Darren. Multiple mentions of Darren this season. Definitely. You're hyped. Who is her son.

Her son. Yes. Anxiously awaiting his arrival. We have. And has a. Dragon. Named. No, we're not going to get this spot.

To the point, Chris, that you made about, like, more broadly, do these families know each other? Inside of this exchange, Otto comes up. Otto comes up with Amid, right, in the hand conversation with Laris. We'll talk about that later. Deeply painful. Deeply painful encounter. For Laris? Yes.

He's like, I never imagined I could possibly. Whenever I've been like, Laris seems like he's got some interesting emotional stuff going on. You guys are like, he's a piece of shit. No, I love Laris. No, I love Laris. And the great complex characters are always the fascinating ones. But so Eamon says, yeah, okay, bring Otto Hightower back. He's going to be in my hand.

My grandson may be overcautious, but his devotion to his family has never been in doubt. Then we go to that Gawain. Because he fires his mom. Yes, but we go to that Gawain-Aliceant conversation, and she's like, have you heard from dad? He's like, well, if he were going to write a letter, it wouldn't be to me. Yeah. You were his favorite. And so you have Otto propped up as this guy who cares about his family,

devoted to his family endlessly, what does that actually mean? He's devoted to the advancement of the High Tower agenda. Does he care about any of the people who are a part of that family, though? But what's wild is like, if we go back to season one, it wasn't even Auto the main driver of that agenda. Right, he was his brother. Yeah. I mean, this is not actually what we're talking about right now, but because we're talking

about just like in general, the Greens. What was your reaction, Chris Ryan? number one crab feeder fan when the triarchy got a shout-out. Like, where did this take? This is why we do what we do. This is why we get up in the morning is to get the crab feeder back in the mix.

Well, he's dead. He's legacy. You know what I mean? Like, someone, and also, crabfear could just be a title. Like, maybe somebody from the triarchy is like, the drag pirate rabbit? Crabfeeder 2.

This is why he's the judge. I love it. No, I was, first of all, glad that watching season one had a purpose. So, like, the first few episodes of season one being largely about this pirate that never really mattered would have been a bummer. So I'm glad the Triarchy came back around.

And I also love Amon kind of being like full rebuild. You know, I'm changing out like the front office here. No team of rivals. Team of only people of Licksbittles. Yeah. Lick Spittles got, was a little heavy rotation in this episode. But Salubrius was also. Sliberius was good. All right.

We can't really go much further without talking. about dragon sewing. I did want to ask you both one last, obviously I can't believe I'm the one delaying dragon sewing. Christ, what a twist. But while we're on Eamon, because I don't know if we'll circle back to him, on the Sylvie front, what did you guys make of that? Sylvie's role in Masaria's, to the discontented rumors or sheet,

was Sylvie always one of Masaria's little birds? Or is this a result of Amon's leaving her at the brothel and saying, like, one whore is as good as any other? I think it's the latter because if it was the former, I would have expected Massar to be like, I have a line on Amon's psychology. Like, I know what Aymond. I know what can hurt Aman.

I know what Aman's sensitive about or vulnerable about. Now, maybe that'll come up. But to me, it was more like, that's because of the way he treated her when those guys showed up. But it is, that sequence is really interesting because the two women there, Diana and Sylvie, Diana being, having been, like,

accosted, assaulted, raped by Aagon in season one, and then, like, Sylvie being humiliated. I mean, I thought, I thought that would just sort of be part for the, like, in terms of she's seen worse shit in the brothel, but like maybe she actually felt close to Aman that actually hurt her. It could be both. It could be like a bit of both. Yeah. She works for Missaria, but also with like. Yeah. She's always soaking up the intel. Yeah. Thought they had something. But these are two. But these are two. Agrieved, you know, women who are like, oh, we're doing a PR campaign? I'm in. Right. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

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Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. I'm in. All right, so let's talk about C-Smoke.

Does he doth protest too much? A bit? Has he always been this tetchy? I mean, you're the one who said that you like to think about him doom scrolling. So I really feel like your moment has arrived here. All right. We have a lot to talk about him. Wait, who's the sadder boy?

Sea Smoke? Or Kristen Cole? I definitely think Seasmoke is. That look that Kristen gave, Allison. You're starting to fall for... You're not in his charms. I would not say it's that. I would say it is, to me, really emblematic of how great the season has been,

that they can take somebody if you think is deplorable and really make you feel for him. Do you think that this was maybe not your favorite episode of House of the Dragon because it had so little Chris and Cole for you to work with? I mean, but I just like, please don't send me back to Harrenhol. Yeah, that's the thing is that I kind of do like these people being, being forced together into like close interior quarters because like you at least get that stuff. But like, I'm glad that they are moving and I'm glad that, you know, I'm not, Maybe not glad for Kristen Cole, because it seems like odds are against him.

But, yeah. Fingers pressed for you that we get another sword cleaning, like, vignette next week from him. It was great that he went from, like, you know, speed is my ally a couple weeks ago to, like, why do we wait? What do we wait? What if we didn't? Go back to war. Just absolutely got incinerated out there. Could I please have a week to do that?

Okay, so speaking of incineration. Seas smoke. Right. So how do we want to hit this? We want to talk about Stefan and then Adam. I want to talk about why that guy can't have like a slight, fist pump before he gets other dragons. Stefan? Okay, it's a great question.

So this really... I feel like he played by the rules. He did what was asked of him. He gave C. Smoke, like, his full attention. It wasn't like he was like, ah. But there isn't, like, one way to train a dragon, to claim a dragon. And it's like, the dragon is as much of a part of that

as the human. So it's not like there are rules or steps you follow. It's dragons are capricious. Dragons are not horses. Yeah. This is a quote. They do not. something he would say.

They do not easily, no shade it, horses. Dragons are not horses. They do not easily accept men upon their backs, and when angered or threatened, they attack. Here's another similar passage from elsewhere that kind of brought us this idea. We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragon rider.

Wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, that dragons are not horses. I agree. I don't actually mention this, but. George is like, guess what? I got a line, and I'm going to use it. They're not horses. They're not licksbittles, that's for sure.

I've done it, Stefan moment. This, I mean, it had to, like, this is like the Nick Young. Yeah, but you're allowed to be happy about your own achievement. Don't celebrate too early. Are you familiar with Harry Potter, Draco, Malfoy, and Buck Beak, the Hippocriff? I think you know the answer to that question. Yes, the answer is yes. Got a laugh from that one.

Well, it reminded me of that and how, like, you need to show the deference, and then Malfoy comes in and it's like, fuck. this. One of them got to ride and one of them got an arm slash, you know, just throwing that out there. Green Apple legend, Jim Malfoy. What did you think of the choice and how it was presented to Stefan from Renira? Oh, I thought that was very interesting. She's like, you know the risk, you've signed the waiver, like, you can't sue. I accept it with gladness. I just thought the whole ritual was interesting because, like, this idea, a dragon is not a slave, something we learned from Dinerist Targaryen and Game of Thrones. And so the fact that they're like, obey, obey,

Serve, serve, obey. I was like, what is this language? Not sure they set the right mood. Right, that wasn't the tone at all. They're also singing the lullaby that we heard Damon sing to Vermithor in the season one finale. So it's like a part of this ritual process. And C-Swoke is like, I have specific needs. What would the track, what track would you play to get C-Smok in the mood to claim him?

That is just a perfect question for Chris Ryan. Guys, really, I'm on fire by Bruce Bristing. I love that. Because he, I mean, he was like, you felt his, this is what I loved about this. You felt how badly C-Smoke wanted that to work. Uh-huh. Right? He does, like, bend his neck.

He presents his saddle initially, and then he's not vibed. We hear from Reneerah, that C-Spoke, who I believe misses his bond. Of course, we had had that Masaria-Ranera conversation earlier in the season, right, about that maybe he's lonely idea. It was funny when they were making out and the guys, like, we've spotted C-Smo. over Spicedown, and she's like, he does that. But he's got a writer this time. I don't know. He loves to just flirt.

He's been flirting with Adam all season, though. We've already seen him flirting with Adam. And so I feel like to go off your, like, writer app idea, I feel like it's like, you know, C-Smoke and Stefan Darklin were like, they were chatting or whatever. And then C-smoke just, you know, and then Stefan, no, they matched. But then Stefan said something where C-Smok's like, Red Flag, Red Flag. I'm going to go back to this other guy. I was flirting with that other guy.

happens to be Adam. He's like, I'm just going to go play some NCAA 25. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, I just like Loki dragons. Can you keep it chill? And C-Smok's like, I'm got to know. I love that C-Smoke took matters into his own wings, right? He sought Adam out.

Like, he went and found the writer that he wanted. It made me think of that Amund passage from when Amund bonded with Vagar in season one. And we talked about this passage from Fire and Blood. Call it boldness. Call it madness. call it the fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons, you were alluding to this earlier, who can know the mind of such a beast? Like, we try to piece together any little kernel we get.

And we have a big canon update that we should talk about in terms of a new kernel, a data point of what we understand about how a rider and a dragon compare, which is, we'll hit that in a second. But so, like, we around that don't know anything. And the text constantly reminds us. And so every time we learn something new, it feels like this massive thing. but then we still have to ask ourselves, well, is that just like an outlier? Or is that a key variable?

I just thought this was a really fun way to expose a blind spot for Renera, right? Because the idea that Jason Renera come up with last week in the library is we'll look for our highborn, distant cousins. Right. Noble blood. Not bastard. No, not Bass. No. Specifically, noble blood.

You know, and she says, when she's talking to Misari, she's like, as if an ancient Valerian beast could suffer a darkland. to write it. She's just sort of like... Half one for House Dark. Yeah. And last week she's like, put a Tarley on it, put a malister on it, but she's looking for nobles. And the fact that C-Smok's like, I spotted this really hot guy down by the docks, and I would like to pair with him.

And she's going to find out, as we've all found out, that Adam is Corliss's bastard. And so then this idea of like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be looking at highborns. That's why I didn't the consideration said. Maybe I should be looking at bastards. Does Corliss know about Adam at all? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because he knows it by Alan, because he's constantly like,

you're my best friend now. Yes. But I just didn't know if he'd seen... I've seen your hair when it grows out. I know that you're mine. No, he knows about both of them. He just hasn't said out loud as we hear the two brothers talk about, like, you are my... The translation that I think is key here for casual viewers of this show is that I think

what your point was, which is that Reneer's initial sort of like, I have this great idea, was still based on, like, the supremacy of royal blood. Right. And now it's like, well, the royals do like to get around. There could be tons of these people around. Yeah. And we've probably seen a lot of them this season, you know. And like we, like that might be where this is going.

Or do you need Targaryen blood at all? Yeah. That's still a question. That's a debate among Raiders. Is it? Yeah. And like so that was why last week when they were forging this plan, it was so great to hear Jay say Valerian history is written to guild us in glory

and acknowledge that that's like their own propaganda that they're putting out into the world. And when, like, they survived the doom, all of these other dragon riding families are dead. Like, you get to further spout your own exceptionalism and your proximity to the gods. And that's what Stefan says. He's like, I'm just a guy. Dragons are gods. I'm just a guy. And so they're further, and we talked about this last week, but this idea that, like, a dragonhead in the street is not great for the image that dragons are these, like, godlike creatures or whatever. Or is anybody who's working at the docks might be. And ride a dragon. Exactly. Yeah. So, and that, that conflict is really compelling. I'm interested to see how Reneira responds because on the one hand it is

like, okay, we have some potential here. Maybe we can cast a wider net. But it does compromise that like sanctity of what it means to be the ruling Targaryen. Because their first reaction seems to be basically like, is it one of our riders? Like, you know what I mean? And then they're like, what must have been the green? Yeah. They think it must have been the greens. Do you have theories then for how, I think there are five potential explanations for how? how Adam could pair. I have zero theories. One, anyone can ride.

You don't need any special blood. Oh, okay, yeah, right. Two, you need old Valerian blood. Like the blood of old Valeria, but you don't necessarily need... Valeria. Yeah. But he's a Valerian. Right, but you don't necessarily need Targaryen blood.

Thanks, George. Okay. Three, Corliss does have some Targaryen blood somewhere in his line, right? Because, like, a drop, perhaps, could be in there, a lot of Intermarian. across those families. Four, Alan Adams' mother is a dragon seed, or the daughter or granddaughter of a dragon seed. So she has Targaryen blood. Okay.

And then five, Seasmoke just made an exception. Seasmoke broke the rules because he's like, you and my prior writer, Lainor, and this is the candidate update that we're like, we've been, how are they going to explain this? Our understanding is that if your rider is alive, you cannot accept another rider. And Lainer is alive. I kind of, I've actually been really worried about this. Is this canon shattering? And I really liked this.

Like the idea that Seasmoke has the agency to say. You're really worried about it, but you liked it. I was worried about it. And now I liked it because it's like the idea that Seasmoke would say, you left me, Lainor. Why should I be alone? I just don't know that we know that yet. Because Lainor could be dead off screen.

That would be, it's possible. I think if they do this whole, like, he's actually alive and going to be happy. He's the guy went on the boat. Yeah, and then it's just killed off screen. That would be weird to me, but it's certainly possible. RIPitalia. Well, that's a little different. But yes.

But, yes. But, like, so C-Smoke sought out somebody who has the same father as his prior rider. Like, Corliss was Lainor's father. We think, I mean, like, they didn't end it with, like, Adams on top of C-Smoke. But, like, it seemed pretty. No, but they ended it with C-Smoke sniffing Adam and then cutting to Rineiro learning that C-Smoke has another rider. I did actually want to ask about another dragon that wasn't, I didn't mention in the recap at all, which is the big old dragon out in the veil. Yeah.

Who left a gigantic T-Rex footprint? One stealing sheep? Yeah. Could it perhaps? Oh, is that sheep stealer? We don't know. Why didn't she mention? Because a wild dragon.

It doesn't have a writer. Okay. All right. So, but the fact that like Raina, the most dragon thirsty, again, this is a big, it's hard to know exactly how to talk about this because it's a big question mark for us because we're doing some, like, lore departure, so we're doing, we're just using TV literacy. Yeah.

To say we have a character who is very... It wants to have a dragon. Dragon hungry. And there is a giant dragon roaming around the veil, and she's just sitting there staring at dragon toys being like, hmm. This is... If this happens, this is a massive departure from the book. Interesting.

So we don't know that it's going to happen, but, like, the TV signs are pointing in that direction, right? Someone having a dragon is the kind of... of thing that would be jotted down in Game of Thrones lore, or these books or whatever. So that would be a major decision for this show to be like someone has a dragon that would never been remarked upon.

And that dragon seems pretty big. It's a big dragon. Okay. Any more dragon stuff before I go on to Alice. Let's talk about some witch stuff. What happened there? So Alice... Witch stuff, go.

I've been a little... I've really liked Gail Rankin's performance, but obviously, and I think purposely, I am a bit confused about if she's actually there. Like if Alice is true. Did you feel any differently hearing Simon mention her this episode? I did. But like leading up into this point, I mean, I find it strange

that no one really remarks upon, like, Damon's never like, I happen to be seeing this person behind you all the time. And it's always like Damon waking up and him being like, hey man, we're a dinner with his other people. And Simon's like, maybe you should get some sleep. Mallory was love. I am trying. Maybe you should get some sleep.

Trying. I think Alice, obviously, on screen has a lot more mystery. You probably know much more about her as readers. Is there something in particular that you've seen on television that you can tell us about that gives her perception into, like, Viseris's psychology? Because she's the... Yeah, she's like, Gyseris didn't want it. Yeah, that was interesting.

She's, like, the door that Damon walks through, basically, to relive these traumatic events in it. She also, like, lists all the specific places Damon fled to. She's sharing a lot of specific. information about things that have happened in while she's been, probably their lives. This is why I like putting her in sort of the bundle with Laris and Masaria. She's her own kind of spy master.

She's just like a magical one. Did you get skinchanger vibes from the owl something? Sure. She's got you know, where would spies everywhere. Like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I when we have hours and hours and talk about and not bore you with I have a lot to say about the owl.

We'll talk about it a little bit more on House of R for sure. Yeah, exciting. She voiced some classic, like, reluctant leader stuff there, too. Yeah. I wrote, I don't want it, like five times. Okay, here's the question I have for you. Okay. Mallory and I have had this gentle disagreement over the years about in the Thrones universe,

and it's avertly stated in this episode, because Alan also doesn't want it. The idea that, like, the best leader is the kind of leader who doesn't want the threat. the throne. Yes. That's why Reneira gets it from Vassaris in the first places, right? Like she's, because she wouldn't want this. It's like, that's what makes her so good for it.

That's the idea. My counter-argument is, what's wrong with feeling like you're the best person for the job and kind of wanting to do the job? Let's ask me meant. That's a very, yeah, that's a very idealistic version of ambition is to just be like, I just think I'm really qualified. No, I just want occasionally

like five drops of I could do this job. Sure. Every single time in Thrones and a lot of other fantasy properties when it's just sort of like, I don't want it. Didn't we get that when so dark? I was like, sure, I'll do it. But then they get torched.

I would just like someone to be like, yeah, I can do this and be good at it. I agree. It would be nice if people were a little bit more enthusiastic about their... That's part of what I have really enjoyed about Reneer's arc is I think she's occupied all of those spaces at some point in time. Starting off as the like, I just want to fly around in my dragon and hang out with my friends. I never dressed about cake. And then she's like, this is my birthright and I have been deprived, and I would be better at this than the Greens.

So, why not both? I think I could use a little bit of a reset here for a second about what exactly Damon is trying to accomplish. I assume he is trying to bring. At Heronhole? Well, okay, because the Tully thing is delivered in a dialect that is discernible but not exactly clear, where it's kind of like, okay, there's this Tully guy,

who is dying, but he is still the person that all of these families look to, to be like, do you want us to go green or black? Right. Now, among those families in these little pockets of the Riverlands, they're all fighting with each other. Correct. Yeah. But they do still pledge allegiance to this guy, the Tully, the head of the Tully household. Yeah, yeah. It's like the Starks in the North or the errands in the Bail, right? Like the Tullies are the Lord's Paramount. But like, Grover Tully has been so ill and so bedridden that their power has been sort of diminished. Right?

So he's just like one feather pillow on the face away from a younger, you know. Now we've got that. Yeah. Now, did the owl just give a little shove into the creepy on? I just loved, like, Alice. I don't think it was the owl itself. Can I imagine it?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. You can die an owl. You know? Yeah, maybe the owl was like. But then I'm mad. We didn't get that scene out. A healing assistant when Alice went in.

I love the idea of Alice boosting her own legacy as a dispenser of prophecy by being like three days hence. And then it's like that's just how long it's going to take me to go kill this guy. In three days hence as the dragonflies. Oh, man. I loved this. The Damon and Dreamland stuff, which has been, I think, divisive among the audiences. We've really enjoyed it. I think it's gone on a bit long.

But I think this is the end. I think this is the last, we're saving Vassaris, he has his breakthrough. We learned in season one, Laris says this thing about Heron Hall passing judgment on those who pass beneath its gates.

So this idea that this was in some way a test for Damon that he finally passed because instead of chopping Reneer's head off or fucking his mom... Tough ones still. Scoops up his brother and holds them. He says, I'm sorry,

I should have been there for. you. The fact that they replayed a scene from season one, a scene that we talk about all the time. But then, like, I went back and rewatch that scene to sort of, like, you know, write down the differences. They did bring, seemingly bring Patty Consum. I know. For a second, I was worried they were using recycled footage, but they did not. And what is the – I'm so curious to hear what you think the key difference is. But a key difference that I found is in the original scene, they had that conversation. Vassarice is grief-stricken, angry, and is clothed himself in kingdom.

The crown is on. The sword is there. He is like, I'm sitting on the throne. I'm the king talking to my disgraced heir, no longer heir. And as soon as Damon turns his back, you see Patti as Vassaris in that original scene sort of slump a little, but Damon never saw it. And so the fact that Damon is locked in this room and forced to grapple with the fact that this was hard for his brother to do, that he was devastated to do it, and having to consider someone

else's feelings other than his own for the first time in his entire life, I thought was... It's never too late. Never late to start. Yeah, you're just got to lock someone in a dream space, you know? Am I to read this then that Alice's goal in leading him through this process was to get him to say, I'm sorry or I've been broken and now I'm ready to rebuild something here? like I'm ready to be a better person. Like I guess I'm kind of like, why does Alice care whether Damon's a good guy? I think that's a question I have too.

Like what? Because she could have just let Damon leave. Yeah. Right? It was just last episode that she was like, look at all this shit you brought here with you. And I don't know that we, we, I think we can speculate, but like I don't think we know the answer to why she chooses to say, no, you actually can't do anything. Another like do nothing, right, moment.

But I can. And I will go eliminate the thing that you need eliminated to try, to try to rally the Riverlands around your cause. Like, what is her purpose in assisting Damon here? What does that achieve for Alice? I think, I mean, it's a great question. I think then we have to take seriously what she said last week about the way that the women and children of the Riverlands are suffering.

Yeah. And so her breakthrough to Damon is think about other people suffering for once. and it seems like he is, then maybe she's like, okay, then maybe you're the kind of guy with the dragon that I want here in the Riverlands if you are going to think about other people and how this impacts them.

But also, I'm not settled on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think even just the way that in the span of a single conversation, it builds from Damon Targaryen asking for help, counsel, not help, counsel, to I need help, Alice, in the span of a conversation.

Like, that's a massive thing. I mean, when we saw Damon and the whole family assembled a drift mark for Elena's funeral in season one, and Vassaris, like, finally, after the second ousting, invited him back. And Damon said, the only thing he wanted to hear from anyone in the world was Vassaris inviting him back, but he couldn't admit that that was what he needed. I need nothing.

But he does. They all do this. Gets back to what you're saying about the isolation that is completely warping their ability to behave in a proper way that would actually help them live better for lives. I also have a question. I don't know if I totally want that for my Game of Thrones characters, but yeah. To go back to our favorite scene of all time, Damon having sex with his mom, I also have to wonder if in that moment when he has that sort of like horrified look at the end of that sequence,

if he's like, I know I like people saying nice things to me and I know I need praise. But am I so sick that I need to like fuck my mom in order to like get it? And like maybe that's not what this life is about actually. Yeah, I like that it was interesting that we got the altered version of a scene that we had spent time with, but I liked that the second dream encounter then was not only like a new thing that we hadn't seen Damon and Vassar's share, but something that we, I think we understand, did not happen. Yeah. Right? That, like, if we think of the funeral, Emma and Baylon's funeral in the series premiere, Damon goes over to Reneira in High Valerian and says, your father needs you now more than ever. He actually does understand what Vassaris needs.

He's just not capable of giving it. He can't do it. And so for him to make that breakthrough, like, I failed you. I should have been here. I should have wrapped my arms around you and cried with you and told you it would be okay. Instead of making you spend your hours after your family was destroyed, telling me how I had let you down time and time again, that's a, this is like last week we're like, is this our damon?

And then here I'm like, this can be, this is our dam. Like this is what we needed out of our guy. Ghost therapy. Look into it. Okay. That's a good idea. Before we go, I do want to talk a little bit about Laris and Agon. Yeah, let's talk about Laris and Agon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want to talk about Laris Agon and Aymond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Laris has obviously been seeding this idea

with both brothers up into this moment where he's like, maybe I can be your, like, you're number one dude, right? Like, I can be. That was someone else's hand. Yeah. You need a fresh hand. Yeah, the swap your hand thing worked on Agon. Yeah, it didn't work. Not work on Aman. So is his goal in life just to be as close to the crown as possible, like, or is there something for Laris, do you think? Because I think when I'm trying to understand is, like, does Laris just want to be as close to

power as possible, or is there something specific about one of these guys that he's drawn to and thinks that he's like, I mean, because it seems like it's the former, right? He's just, the second he gets rejected by AIM and he goes right to Agon. Yeah, I think he knows... And the second he gets rejected by Allison,

he goes right, you know, like... To AGO. Yeah. I think in Agon, especially now the injured Aigon. He has found someone where he's like... Injured? Yes, you? A little toasty, a little roasty toasty. Eamond, like pressing a small ball into Aeons. The noises, the like whimpers that Tom Glencarnie were making. I was going to ask you to

if you thought Tom could win an Emmy simply for whimpering? Like rattling breaths. Yeah. So good. It's incredible. What I love... The Laris Aegon scene was my favorite scene of the episode, and what I loved about it so much was, we have been talking about Laris for so long as Varis coded, as Little Finger coded,

which he is all of those things, but he's also Tyrion coded. This is a Tyrion Lannister. So you bought it. There's genuine vulnerability in here while also having an agenda. Procodile tears, yeah, right. I mean, no, because I believe he's genuinely, like, was very upset by the fact that his father was horrified by his birth,

the same way that Tyone was horrified by Tyrion's birth. They used to the word, like, twisted, which is a word we have heard for Tyrion and stuff like this. And then this idea of like cloak yourself. Yes, it's the wear it like armor idea. Yeah. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you. So this is a guy who has just been like rejected and he talks about people not looking at you or staring at you and Matthew Needham in this scene. Great. Great. So good. So like is he using his real pain for an agenda to get him closer to a piece on the board that he can better move than

Aman? Yes. Sure. But is it real pain? I think it is. I think you're probably right. Yeah, I think so too. And it feels like extra pointed because it taps into that like the cripples bastards and broken things quote that gives us that beautiful where like armor tierie and John moment that Joe just quoted. Like that's a core unifying Game of Thrones idea. Whether you're actually one of like the all of these characters who feel like an other, an outsider in some way. Like they weren't accepted by their father or their house or their peers or their siblings or the realm or whatever the case may be. Like, how do you move forward and try to forge your own path in? And can you find other people who are like-minded or who you can find some sort of like symbiosis and empathy with? And that was

the other, like, I think- This is why, like, fellowships is such like an important part of this episode. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, no. I think, like, thinking of it from both of their perspectives was fascinating because Tyrion was also on my mind. Like, it made me think of hearing Laris talk about his birth. Like, it made me think of that really gut-wrenching scene where Oberyn is telling Tyrion about, you know, saying, like, to Circe that's not a monster. I told Circe that's just a baby. And, like, what would it be like if from the moment you were born, that was how other people, including the people closest to you in your life, made you feel?

And I thought it was really fascinating about this exchange was it puts Lionel Strong, a character that we thought was like who was the hand of the cave. Like Harwin's dad, really honorable, rejected his kid who was, you know, came out with this like twisted leg. And so it's like the fact that it puts Lionel in this different light because of how he failed this son, he might have been a good father to Harwin but not a good father to Laris. and that rejection is what turned Lairis into the kind of guy, I guess, who would light his family on fire. But also, there's this interesting little morsel of like an Alice reference here, right?

Where he says, my father accused someone in our household of sorcery. So, like, was Alice cast out by Lionel? Was she complicit in the burning of Harren Hall? Like, we don't know. Those are just questions, but I love this scene. That's really fascinating. You know what, actually, it's funny because we're talking about this, and I was, in my mind what popped up

as you were talking about, like, this sort of rejection and the childhood trauma that Laris experienced is the Amid Allison moment. Of course. She's like, having you avenged, like, the... What is it, the indignities? What did she say? Like, something like...

But she's basically, like, have you not sufficiently, like, avenged your childhood yet? And he just doesn't say anything. And he's just, like... I thought the moment where, because she's, like, cupping his face. Yeah. And he reaches up to pull her hand away,

but he, like, holds on her. a second. Because like it's actually all he really wants and has wanted is for her to accept him, but he couldn't. I thought it was cool that they shot it from the iPop. Yes, this is like a thing that I'm loving over the last couple episodes. It's making it feel like more of a mask.

The fact that's, like, what did he specifically do? We've heard him say back in the premiere of this season to Kristen, you know, like she holds love for our enemy that makes her a fool. There's that practical part of it. But he walked into the small council meeting in the first episode of this season and she said, you don't belong here. So he did the same thing to her.

And this is like that sin begets sin idea again. And so like I love that we're tying those two moments, the Egon and Aman, Allison's and Laris' moments, because when Laris said, and they will underestimate you and this will be your advantage. That is Eamon's story. He's not underestimated in terms of his might as a sword. But what do we hear him saying this episode? Like I'm not a dog to be called to heal, even though we heard Egan describe him exactly that way. A horse. Exactly.

He's not a horse. He's not a horse. He's not a horse. He's described him literally that way. He's a loyal hounder. He'll go where I send him and do what he needs. He's like, I'm withholding Vagar because you guys want him too bad. It's like... Because Jason asked for him.

It's like everything is psychological with him. And it's interesting as we get to the end of this. It's like, we've just, spent probably an hour, mostly talking about emotions and psychology of characters, whereas for the most part, in Game of Thrones, I would say, like, we're just constantly like, okay, this is where this person is and this is where this person might go, and this is what's chasing them or what they have to confront. And it's much more physical. It's much more practical. It seems like this show is really finding its footing by being like, these are

these, like, complex portraits of these people that are going to shape the world and the future. And here's like, you know, maybe the history version of them is like, and then they decided to do this and everybody died or lived or whatever. But this is like, this is why these people were like this. Yeah. It goes back to your first question to us, I think, where it's just sort of like if you're Ryan Condal or any of the writers on the show and you open fire and blood and it's like, Allison did this really shitty thing.

Right. Why? Right. This was such an intimate episode. Yeah. Like, Laris takes that milk of the poppy away from Eggon, right? We have to be thinking of Vassaris bandaged in that same bed addled on Milk of the Pappy. These are the people who are forging the kingdoms.

But what is forging them? And this was an episode. This was why I really love the episode. I think it's important to take a beat and think about that. And when Laris is saying to egg on, like, you'll be, you're never going to be the same again. What comes, it made me think of Brand, right? Like, if Bran wakes up. But what do you do with that?

Is Egon going to be more understanding and more empathetic and more inclined to find gratitude for the things that he still has after this experience? Is he going to be even more, like, hardened and cruel? I doubt it. We'll find out. We'll find out. For Mallory and Joe, I'm Chris Ryan. We will be back next Sunday with episode, our reaction to episode seven, the penultimate episode of the season. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next week.