House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 7 Deep Dive. Plus: Tom Bennett! | House of R

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

The banners have been raised, and Mal and Jo are here to take you along for another deep dive into 'House of the Dragon,' beginning with their opening snapshot and the lore of dragon claiming (08:06). Then they dive scene by scene into the seventh episode, featuring the Red Sowing, Oscar Tully and Daemon's negotiations in the Riverlands, and Corlys's less-than-great parenting (30:20). Later, Jo gets an exclusive interview with Ulf himself: Tom Bennett (03:09:18). Then they bring their predictions to the book-spoiler section and discuss what may happen in the season finale (03:31:04). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. I used to think I knew what it was to claim a dragon, but I understand now that what I thought I knew is ash in the wind. Perhaps it is blood, or worth, or perhaps it's something else. Each of you is left behind a life to answer this call, a life to which you might never return.

If you survive, you will be transformed. No man or woman can face a dragon and be otherwise. Some of you may welcome the prospect of change, even death, given the alternatives. Privation, starvation, war. This is our purpose. To end those hardships for you, for your kin, for all the realm. With these two dragons added to our number, the enemy will have no choice but to give way. And peace will be restored.

Suffering will be ended. And without bloodshed. Greetings. And welcome to House of Arr, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Dragonmont. everything's going to be fine. Come on in. It's fine.

And also, back into the House of R, joining me today. To share that she has nothing more to tell us. It must be the dragon who speaks. It's Joanna Robinson. What's up, Joe? Mallory, hello. I'm here in studio. You're at home because you continue to bravely battle the, like, torching fire of COVID

in order to come to us here today to cover House the Dragon. You're a hero. And I honor you. It's been really rough. I still feel terrible. I'd like to apologize to all of the bad babies for coming to you looking like Vesaris

when he meets Damon in the dream state in this episode and sounding like death and all of it. But thank you for your patience as Joe has healed. It's aspirational to me. I hope to be well and back in studio with my pals soon. Joe, before Arjuna pops on and says, your progress is impressive. Is it?

Was that gone? I don't know, I guess. Some quick programming reminders. The Ring Reverse, popping, as always. Another Ringervverse recommends episode coming Wednesday. And then on Friday, Junior Mintz get hyped because Mint Edition will have an episode on Batman Caped Crusader. here on the House of R, there will be a Deadpool and Wolverine pod at some point.

As you might have gleaned, I have not been able to go to a movie theater to see the film yet because I have been riddled with COVID. And so that is complicating our plans. Timing TBD, the pod will calm at some point with some people talking about the blockbuster event of the summer. And then, of course, on Sunday night, we will be with Chris Ryan right after, moments after. Yeah. The House of the Dragon Season 2 finale, we will be live for Talk, the Thrones.

We can't wait for that. That will, of course, be streaming live on the Ringervverse YouTube channel. That's also where you can find full video episodes of House of our Deep Dives, such as this one, who wouldn't want to see this on video? I mean, you look beautiful. Beautiful.

The Midnight Boys, Beapue, on video. If anyone's like, where was the episode six Deep Dive? Why wasn't it on YouTube? That was not a video, because we both, we both were just in the Thores of course. COVID at that point, but you could still listen to the audio of that pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Joe, how can the people follow along? So glad you asked.

First of foremost, I do want to say this Sunday, the finale, Talk the Thrones is going to be an extra special tasty energy because we will have watched the episode once and jumping immediately on to camera. So if you want to see us lose our minds in real time, that would be the time to tune in live on Sunday after the finale. I think it's been really fun. I can't wait. Can't wait, truly. And, yeah, listen, follow the pod. Why don't you do that?

Ringarverse, House of R. It's a good idea to do so. Like, follows on socials. We're on X. We're on Facebook. We're on TikTok. You did. You said X.

We're on Instagram. We're on, most importantly, Twitter, which is what I should have called in the first place. Thank you. And you could always email us. Habbas and Drag is at Gmail. com. Your email sustain me. As they work late into the night on my like show notes for the following day, I'm always like coming through your emails and then like just live a stream of consciousness tweeting about them. So like, thank you guys so much. If you're essentially

keeping me company while I'm doing show notes. So thank you so much. Last program reminder, it's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. We will of course be talking about everything that happened in this penultimate episode, the seventh episode of season two of House of the Dragon. Anything that has happened in House of the Dragon to date, anything that ever happened in Game Thrones, we will be citing the source text, Fire and Blood, Song of Vice and Fire throughout the pod for context, historical illumination, et cetera. But anything that gets into future plot developments, that will be sectioned off in a brief book spoiler section at the end of the pod. You will have another spoiler warning right before then. And that section today will be coming after an interview

because Joanna got to chat with Tom Bennett, Ulf himself. Oh, my God. Thrill of my life. What a joy. What a delight Tom Bennett is. I'm such a huge fan of his, so it was so fun to talk to him. Please forgive me. I was still a bit COVID-y when I talked to him.

So he's perfect, and I'm just a little addled. But overall, I think the conversation was great. And he had some, like, really fun insights into, like, you know, the specificities of Wolf's character and also sort of why a bit why Silver Wing would be attracted to someone like Ulf because I think it's a big question a lot of us have. It's like, what does Ulf have? Hugh, we can kind of like see the connection.

We're like, Oof, what's happening here? So, yeah. I mean, good hang at the bar. One more you need to be. I mean, I would want to hang out with Ulf nonstop, but I'm not Silver Wing, so alas. Okay. We cannot gain say that which the podcasting gods have laid before us.

So let's get to it. We are here to talk about episode seven, the red sewing directed by Lonnie Peristere, written by David Hancock, who wrote previously the third episode of this season, Burning Mill. This is a 64 minute episode, yet another episode checking in north of the hour mark. Before we get to the deep dive, let's get to the brief opening snapshot. It's not a sentence, but an honor. Joanna Robinson We've got a long deep dive ahead Give us a taste

What did you think Of this seventh episode The Red Soing Quickly I will just say I really like this I like this More every time Than I rewatch it

Think about it And I think in terms of Like marrying Dragon spectacle To character And theme development This is the most successful Not only House of Dragons

Has ever been But like Game of Thrones has ever been I think it really leveled something up. A lot of that had to do with like how good everything looked and sounded. I think the verbathora sequence is one of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen. God tear. Not to sound like Renaira, but God tear.

It was just like astounded by it. So yeah, I thought it was great. How about you? I loved it. The sewing of the seeds is one of my favorite stretches in the book. So I had been anticipating this all season long. And it did not disappoint. I can't wait to go beat by beat and chat about this episode with you today.

I'm honestly despondent that we only have one episode left. I was already like, oh, man, only eight, not 10 this season. What a bummer. And it's just been such a strong season on balance overall that I'm like really going through withdrawal already contemplating the conclusion of this. But as usual, I am trying to balance that with just soaking up. every second of being in Westeros with you, my pal. I want to hit just like two really quick emails that we got.

We got a bunch of other emails that we'll get to. But Laura said RIP mailies, you would have loved last night's small folk slaughter, which I thought was really funny. Hall fame email. Brutal. My God. And then our listener Maria said Silver Wing definitely said, I can change him to Ulf. And then last one at least, we got a ton of emails. of various forms and lengths of varieties about this idea of dragon claiming.

And what we, what's the lore around this? The question is like, a dragon claiming a writer or a rider claiming a dragon or riders and dragons being paired at birth versus claimed later. What do we know for certain Mallory about this process? All the while being open to the show doing sort of its own versions of things? Great table-setting bundle of emails here because we're going to hit, obviously, some of these details as we go in context. But it's, yeah, this is a good call to put this out there at the top.

We've talked about many of these little cannon nuggets over the last few pods. But to kind of get everything that we know or don't know in a cluster here, I'll attempt to move through this as quickly as possible slash without expiring from shortness of breath. But that we can kind of all keep this in mind as we go through the red soap. and also as Joe, as you're noted, keep in mind that we only think we know what we think we know. There's plenty we don't know and plenty we will learn over time, both on the show and in the text in the future, should we be treated to more text at some point. Okay.

Thanks, George. We appreciate you. We're rooting for you. We believe in you, George. We do. We do. Okay. First thing to keep in mind, just to remember that in Valeria of old, there were 40.

dragon lord families and the Targaryans were just one of them and not the most powerful one at that. But they're the ones who survived the doom thanks to Danis the dreamer. No wonder this family is fucking obsessed with dreams and prophecy. It allowed them to become the only dragon riding power in the known world. Okay. So that's kind of the big backdrop. Who is eligible to pair? Let's keep in mind that this tradition of intermarrying is about keeping the bloodlines pure from fire and blood. It had long been the custom amongst the dragon lords of Valeria to wed brother to sister to keep the bloodlines pure, normal stuff. This is literally the reason. Keep those M counts up.

I love, you were committed to maintaining the streak of mentioning M counts. And I honestly, Tywin voice, I respect that. Thank you. This is a great, a great new tradition of yours. I just like thinking of it that way, this idea of like, Targary, dragon-y midaclorians in your bloodstream. Watch out for Quigun. Always. This is literally the reason that the Targaryians got the faith to sanction their incest.

And later years, the Citadel and the Starry Septu-like would call it the doctrine of exceptionalism. Its basic tenet was simple. The faith of the seven had been born in the hills of Andalos of old and had crossed the narrow sea with the Andals. The laws of the seven

is laid down in sacred text and taught by the septus and septans in obedience to the father of the faithful decreed that brother might not lie with sister nor father with daughter nor mother with son

that the fruits of such unions were abominations loathsome in the eyes of the gods. All this, the exceptionalists affirmed, but with this caveat the Targaryians were different. Their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valerianian

of old where different laws and traditions held sway. A man had only to look at them to know that they were not like other men. Their eyes, their hair, their very bearing, all proclaimed their differences. And they flew dragons. They alone, of all the men in the world, had been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts once the doom had come to Valeria. End quote. Joe, you love the doctrine of exceptionalism. That's going to come up a few times today. I really do. But my, yeah, my big question is this. How are the Targary is going to justify their incest now? Now they've put a bunch of bastards on dragons. It's a phenomenal note.

This was the reason they were allowed to sleep with all of their closest relatives. Next. What a world. What a story. What a fictional universe this is. Thanks, George. So there's this blood question. We went through this in the kind of bullet point detail when we talked about, like,

how could Adam potentially be a dragon rider? We talked about this last week. quickly to refresh on those possibilities for anyone who didn't listen to the last week's pods. Maybe it's all propaganda. All of it. Maybe anybody can truly ride. We talked a couple weeks ago about George R. Martin's recent blog post on his not a blog, and this idea that was floated in there that kind of like sparked our curiosity about a certain implication about other families.

Think about it, George Road. If dragons were nomadic, they would have overrun half of Esos and the doom would only have killed a few of them. Similarly, the dragons of Westrose seldom wander far from Dragonstone. Elsewise, after 300 years, we would have dragons all over the realm, and every noble house would have a few. Now, he didn't outright say, write a few, maybe it just means hanging in the yard. Maybe there's an implication there about all of the intermarrying of families over time and little sprinkles of targ blood dotted across the realm, but it made us go, hmm, another example

of like what might we learn more over time. Maybe you don't need Targaryen's blood specifically, but you need some of that blood of Old Valeria, the dragon lords, the magic, the blood magic of old. Corliss notes in this episode that House Valerian, that they are not dragon lords, but could there be, as we talked about last week, some Targ blood in Corliss's line from some of the intermarrying across the histories entirely possible? Maybe you do need Targaryen blood specifically, and maybe as Renera is asking in this episode, as Corliss asks Alan when he asks about their mother's heritage.

maybe Adam and Alan's mother is a dragon seed or the daughter or granddaughter of a dragon seed. That is entirely possible. It's also possible, as we discussed and speculated about last week, that Seaspoke was like making an exception. And this is on the table. We have our theories. This is like a hotly debated question in the fandom. That's what I was going to say. Even book readers are like are not united on this question of like, do you have to have some targ blood in you in order to ride a dragon?

I would say thus far, the show has not given us an indication that anyone can ride a dragon. In the show, thus far, that is a very like, where's your targ blood? Let's ask about your targ blood episode. Yeah, definitely. More broadly, beyond the blood, in this episode, Reneer kind of voices this larger question. Like, what are the qualities that you need to possess, right? We heard it at the top of this episode. I used to think I knew what it was to claim a dragon, but I understand now that what I thought,

I knew was ash in the wind. Perhaps it is blood or worth or perhaps it's something else. That worth word choice felt so interesting. There's like a like a mule near like are you worthy kind of quality that's being presented there. It's so subjective. It's dragon to dragon. And I think Condal has said this idea like I think they intentionally very much, you know, because Chris, very naturally I think Chris Ryan was also looking for like sort of this unified like what makes Adam and Ulf and Hugh all kinds of people. that dragons would claim. And I think they actually very intentionally made them quite different to underline this idea, the caprice of dragons, however you prefer, that like, it's just up to the dragon. You know what I mean? It's like not...

Who can know the mind is such a beast? Who can I... You know, it's just like dragons are not a monolith, right? And so if Silver Wing is looking for like a good time with Ulf or whatever and Vermifelor is like, let's go fuck some shit up with Hugh, you know what I mean? Like it's... It depends on the dragon. Absolutely.

I think that this episode again really leaned into, and the show so far as leaning into that idea at the heart of what Joe, what you're identifying, that fire and blood passage that we've turned to time and time again throughout this season. We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between a dragon and dragon rider. Wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, the dragons are not horses to be ridden by any man who throws a saddle on their back. So this is like at the heart of how the story, the text, is examining the lore and the mythology.

It's like, Egrid is here just saying, you know nothing, John Snow, to all of us about dragon riding time and time again. And so we look to like apply these kernels of insight that we have, but we have to maintain that context of the unknown. Would you agree that, so we have this Targary. That dragons are not horses. I would. I would. Would you agree that's, so we have this Targaryian practice that's alluded to in the show. perhaps even shown with Jaharis and Jahara's beds that we saw at the beginning of the season.

This idea that, like, Targaryen royals, Targaryen children are given a dragon egg. Damon stole one for his fake baby that he was going to have with Masaria. You're given a dragon egg to hatch with you so you could bond basically from the cradle with this egg. It doesn't always take. That's right. Right? Yes. Yes.

So this egg, this egg aspect, this question of the egg aspect, this question of, of how riders and dragons are paired. The egg part is a big part of it, but it's not the only path. So this tradition began with Raina Targary, an older sister of Jeharis and Alassane, who are being mentioned with increasing frequency on our podcast. Rina had bonded with her hatchling Dreamfire, who gets a call out in the scenes for the finale, thrilling stuff, jumped off my couch. First time I'd shown that level of energy at Ben outmatched by. Yeah, spotting another dragon in the scenes for next week. She was nine when Raina was nine when she and Dreamfire bonded,

but this was such a cherished bond for her in an early one still in her life that it sparked this tradition from fire and blood. It was Princess Raina Legend says who put a dragon's egg in Princess Alessane's cradle, just as she had for Prince Jeharis two years earlier. If those tales be true, from those eggs came the dragon's silverwing and Vermethore, whose names would be writ so large in the annals of the years to come. Here's another key quote from Fire and Blood. It became customary for the fathers and mothers of newborn princelings to place a dragon's egg in their cradles,

following a tradition that Princess Raina had begun many years before. The children so blessed invariably bonded with the hatchlings to become dragonriders. But we know, of course, that that is not true, at least like in showings. land, Raina's egg did not hatch. In the book, we should note, Raina's egg did hatch, quote, a broken thing that died within hours of emerging from the egg. You mentioned Joe, the damon, the egg that Damon steals because he wants to give it to his fictional baby. That also was the egg that Renira had picked to put in Baylon, who she wanted to name Vesenia's cradle. So that kind of baby brother. That tradition of like a sibling relationship we saw in the

sixth episode of season one, Jace and Luke pick an egg for Jaff, so we've gotten to like a glimpse it. We don't have every single did this character get an egg, a bit of canon, like completely established. Sometimes we have to deduce, but we do know that they don't always hatch, or that if they hatch,

they don't always live. And we heard Lena and Raina talk about that last season in the show when Lena told her daughter, it's been eight years sweetling. Half of them never do, you know, what? Hatch. And then she told her daughter. There's more than one way to find yourself to a dragon. I was about one until I was 15 years old. Now I ride Vagar, the largest

in the world. You have a harder road. Bayless dragon was born to her, but if you wish to be a rider, you must claim that right, which of course is what we saw Amon do with Vigar. Claim that right. Okay, but here's my question. Yes. Given that you did all this beautiful, delightful research, do you agree with me that in terms of riders claim dragons, we've seen a bunch of times. We heard about, you know, Damon's mom Alyssa You know

We saw Amon doing with Vagar But is it more of a show convention This idea of a dragon picking The rider I mean there's a mutual claiming I think in terms of like Vagar and Aiman

Like if Aiman approaches Vagar And he manages to hold on for that ride That is sort of like a mutual choosing Right Because Vagar could have easily Like torched Aeman If she decided to But this idea of like sea smoke like hunting Adam down and claiming him or you know like the red sewing is an event where a bunch of people fail and then someone like Hugh succeeds.

So that is in a sense Vermethor choosing Hugh. Yeah. But it seems like the show is making a little bit more emphasis on this idea of like a dragon choosing a writer versus a writer being brave or bold. old enough to claim a dragon. Do you know what I mean? That feels very much in line with like this question, Chris, has been asking us all season of where is the room for like embellishing or fleshing out of something in the text? Where are they bound? Because like it does feel like something where the historical record would say, look at this brave person who did this thing. Look at this person who became a legend. And then we get to see.

And this is one of the, I think what you said earlier about like the achievement of the, not just spectacle, but fantasy spectacle is so right and so important. to heighten. And of course, one of the things like I loved about this episode too, to see, see, smoke seek out the thing he wanted and knew was right. And to show us how the dragons have agency and perspective and wants and desires, it should be a mutual thing. And so like, while it always is mutual, like, I think you're right to identify that the show is heightening the dragon side of that. And then like that gets to this other question that we received a lot of about like dragon relationships with each other,

dragon relationships with other riders. And like what's going on through a dragon's mind? So we can quickly run through like a couple of those nuggets as well. Well, just inspired by this great standoff on the beach between the strangers, the strangers that are Reneer and Adam, but the old friends, if you want to put it that way, that are Syrac and Sea Smoke. And we talked about this a little bit when we talked about Rook's Rest.

And like, Vagar and Maly's and knowing each other. and or, anyway, vagar knowing Rainis. So what do you want to say about that? Yeah, so Vagar and Males. There are previous riders, Baylon and Alyssa, siblings, and spouses. Did that stop, Vagar from killing Males?

It did not. Vigar and Karaxes have history. We saw Lena and Damon flying together in Pentos, Baylon and Amon were brothers, prior riders of those dragons. Has that history, between those dragons for a second, stopped either Amon or Damon from saying, I can't wait to go challenge this other person. Exactly. Like, I wonder what my dragon will think of this. No, not for a second. They're both talking about it all the time. There are, you know, a lot of examples, but like another

maybe fun one to cite is Ballerian and Quicksilver, Ballarian, Magor the Cruel. My guy, Magar the Cruel. Your favorite. A normal, very chill, calm, peaceful. That's how you get a name like the cruel, you know? Exactly. Claimed Blerian and anise slash anus, as he will always be referred to on this podcast. Magor's brother, the brothers from different mothers, different sister wives, right, in the Agon and his sister wives trio there. They were Belerian and Quicksilver's riders, brother riders.

Now, they had a quite complex relationship that we do not have time to get into here, But still, brothers who were riders and there's a history between those mounts, did that stop Magor and Belaerian from taking on Egonne the uncrowned and Quicksilver? Folks, it did not. Fun fact, of course, is that Egon took a really long time to get a dragon to claim Quicksilver while his sister slash stop us, if you've heard this before, wife, Raina, had already had had Dreamfire and like this, oh my God, he doesn't have a dragon, was like a big part of their story. I think what, so I think the primary takeaway from this is the dragon's primary overall will override anything else bond it's to its writer.

Yes. Some will claim, Fire and Blood says, that the bond between a dragon and a dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. Shifting over time because the bond of the moment is the bond that counts. And so what does that mean for like the other people? A lot of people have asked, including Chris on Talk to Thrones, how was Rainer able to, like, approach Vermethor? We had seen Damon do the same. Let's just remember that when both Rainira and Damon summoned Vermethor, Vermethore, Vermethore was not paired.

Vermithor didn't have a rider that would trump any other interaction. It's just something for us to, like, keep in the back of our minds. We had that moment in episode six of season one where the dragon keepers kind of explained to Jace in that training sequence with the kids. You must hold mastery over your dragon, my young prince, as Prince Egon has was. Sunfire, once they're fully bound to you, they will refuse to take instruction from any other. Dragons will sometimes allow other people on their backs, but only with their rider there to kind of sanction it. Like we talked about Alyssa taking babies, Viseris, and Damon for rides, Raina Targaryen,

who we've been talking about today, the other Raina took people to fly in Dreamfire with her. Damon took Masaria to meet Karaxis, right, when they bounced to Dragonstone. Danny rescued the Beyond the Wall crew. on Drogon, but like with the rider. And there are examples that we can't get into that may or may not become relevant to the future about someone trying to ride someone else's dragon. It's a bad idea because I don't know if you know this. Dragons are not horses.

Not horses, Joe. I think the last thing on the pairing front that's probably just worth mentioning of something else we talked about a little bit last week. But to this point in the story, no rider has paired with a second dragon after a dragon's death. Now, of course, to this point in the story, Vassaris is like the example of a character who outlived his dragon. So it's like a pretty small sample size of considerations. But George R. Martin has implied on his blog. The blog is coming into play as often as the text, notable development here today. He's got it right somewhere, you know? Indeed. He said of Viceris,

when the Black Dread died of old age, not in war, Viceris did not take a second dragon. And so from that line on not a blog. A Song of Ice and Fire fans have gleaned that it is in theory in George's mind, at least canonically possible for a writer to say, my dragon has died. Now I will take a seek a second dragon, but that is not something that we have seen to this point in the text. And that's what we know about how riders and dragons compare and all the other stuff that we don't know, but can't wait to find out.

Thank you, Mr. Mallory. You're the best. Boy, that was, I love dragons. That was a fun one to like right on the eve of recording quickly whip up. Genuinely, I'm glad I'm just saying it that way, not like, genuinely. I saw that added to the dock and I was like, let's do it. Let's do it. Well, I feel bad that we ran out of time to like really talk about dragon stuff at the end of last week. So I'm glad we got to like.

This is smart to front load. It's something a lot of people are wondering about. And it's also like a fun thing to be able to say like, here's what we know and here's what we don't. And that's part of the joy of it is we're going to get to find out together. Okay. Should we dive deep? Let's do it. Where should we do it? In the bowels of a pleasure den. Okay. Let's get into the red sewing. Let's go beat by beat, scene by scene through this episode. Let's start with the scene that you mentioned, Joe, Adam and Renera meeting this gorgeous

wide shot of this face off on the beach on Driftmark, stormy skies behind them. What did you make just kind of like vibe setting, tone setting of this? genre mashup we got of like Western faceoff and fantasy with the dragons roaring and reflecting their riders. I love that Connell said on the inside of the app that this is like a Western showdown with the dragon being the Colts on their hip. I mean... It's great stuff.

Ryan Condell. He cooks there. It's amazing. This is, I think the visual of Vermethor looming over Ranira and then like getting to like look at Vermethore in the eyes and like that, that's the moment that really visually took my breath away. But this is so much more challenging. We are like outside. They film this on a beach, for realsies beach. In your homeland of Wales.

In my home, I love an ocean vista. A dragon on a beach, are you kidding me? The amount of character that like both front of the pod, Paula Fairfield and the noises, but then just the VFX team was able to... Paula crushed it in this episode. Holy hell. episode. But like the sounds like the chatter between Syrac's and Seas Smoke, incredible, the body language between those two dragons and what that did to like overall set the mood of

the scene where it's just sort of like a cult. A cult is inert on your hip. Like you can see sort of like the sun glint off, you know, the pistol if you want to, but if you're a gunslinger, your gun is just sort of like there. Your trigger finger is sort of like what the camera usually focuses on, but your gun is just there. But here the guns are like alive, and they have their own thoughts and feelings about what's happening here. To our listeners,

I mean, to our listeners' point, like, that they, that Reneira and Syracs both have history with C-Smoke, makes this all so juicy. You know, if it were just like a new, brand-new dragon, that, you know, wasn't part of the family at one point.

You know, and then I thought, I thought that Adam in this scene was extraordinary too. And then just sort of the gamut of emotion, which we talked about on Talk to Thrones. But I just think visually, the way the dragons just felt so alive. And so, I mean, with love and respect to Game of Thrones, which was working with just like a different level of technology, even though it was only a couple years ago,

still like, you know, a little... This shows it's just such an amazing job of giving East Dragon a personality. I mean, like, I felt like we knew Drogon's personality, but not really distinguishing between the other two on Game of Thrones. And here it's just sort of like, I understand these dragons and who they are. And they've just, this moment was incredible. Truly sensational. The question is, does Chris understand the differences between them? That'll be the true test.

He's getting closer, you know? We had a ton of emails from listeners last week and this. asking if we thought that when Rainira ran out the door of Dragonstone and hopped on Syrac last week, if she thought she was like, it must be the Greens, but if there was some part of her that thought that maybe Laynor had returned. And it's certainly possible, but I think the tenor that I'm seeing around that question is like,

would she be so excited because Laynor's back? And on the one hand, I'm sure, like, you know, she had no ill will towards Leanor, and I'm sure, I mean, it would be a dragon rider she could trust that would be on her team, so that would be helpful. Stepstones vet. It would also be quite bad for Rainira if Lainor came back because, like, they built a lot of their reputation. You know what I mean?

The death of Lainer was so, the fake out death of Lainer was so calculated and a show of power. And so it's just, you know, it's a wild prospect, but it would be very calm. She wouldn't just be like uncomplicatedly being like, yay, Lainor's. back, you know, it's very, it's very complicated and messy. Yes, absolutely. Speaking of complicated, speaking of messy, let's talk a little bit more about that emotional state that you just alluded to because Renera starts this sequence in a quite anxious place. Who are you?

You stand with a dragon of House Targaryen. Oh, what do you want? That changes quickly over this conversation as Adam starts to explain, I had no designs upon it. And this dragon came to me. He says he wants to learn to be a dragon rider. He says he wants to serve my queen and he bends the knee. Joe, you got to this idea and talk the thrones. She mentions his sudden elevation.

Is there anything you wanted to hit there on like the way that this giddying assent idea we heard from Gawain in the Kristen conversation earlier is like stitching together a larger character set? Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, it's knight. And who you are before you have a dragon versus who you are after you have a dragon is there's no, like, stronger accelerant than you can throw on someone's like the fire of their reputation, the power and the kingdom, etc. Like, so for Adam to go from shipwright, something that he hasn't fully shaken off because later he, like, asks permission from Corley's to like stop being a shipwright. And you're like, buddy, you have a dragon. Your shipwright days are over. You know, so like that Gideon,

Chris and Cole, by contrast, had to like hack and fight his way up the chain of command in contrast to the power that's conferred upon Adam. You know, he has brand new clothes by the end of the episode. They have like tailored new clothes for him by the end of the episode. Hugh and Ulf are not quite, you know, fitted and kidded yet. But like there, as, as Rearer says in that clip that we heard at the beginning of the episode, like, your life is,

is forever changed. There's no going back. You were now a dragon writer. And this is true, not just of these dragon seeds, but of course it was true of Amund with Vagar, too. Who Amid was a dragonless bullied boy in his family versus who he was, as Otto loved to point out, after he claimed Vagar. And how that changed Amid is, I think, something that should be really much on, very much on our minds. Because if you go back and you watch those episodes in season one, Amid is such a sympathetic character as a young kid. You're just sort of like this poor kidney. He's rather sweet about Helena and all this sort of stuff like that.

And then like who does he become? We talk to you and Mitchell about this a bit. Like what does knowing that you are the writer of Vagar do to you as a person? And who do you try to mold yourself into being in order to fit that? So what will it do to Adam? What will it do to Hugh? What will it do to Ulf? You know, et cetera, et cetera.

Great flag. great flag perhaps everybody involved with dragons is either going to say they're an illusion that we can control them or we're gods now

maybe there's some room in between Are you saying Two sides of the coin Let's flip it Yeah let's see where we're at last Adam suezed Renera With a godly line And this is going to be something

That we talk about at length today On the Rainierre front If the gods call me to greater things He says Who am I to refuse? fuse them. We'll talk about the Renera part of that later, but from Adams' perspective, from the Adam side of it, this fits with our season-long sense of his ambition, his desire for something more in life. In the second episode, we heard him say, if I had such a chance, I would leap at it or another

opportunity to distinguish yourself to his brother about seeking a different position, elevating inside of the fleet. In the sixth episode of this season, do you never think about what could be ours. And so that all felt, even in our limited time with Adam, right. Like, we don't doubt that he would be a character to lean in in this moment and then be ready for all that came after. And it's interesting because, like, Alan seems untroubled by it, though it would be nice to see a conversation between the brothers. But, like, Alan seems untroubled by it. But, like, in a way, Adam was so envious of the crumbs of proxswain. proximity that Alan had to Corliss, right? And Adam has leaped over Alan in that regard, right, in terms of like he's now the son with the dragon. Like, you know, Corlis talks to Alan. We'll get to that a little bit later. But it's just sort of like, it just changes everything, everything. And it makes it so fascinating then for Alan to say like, I'm good. In Shaland, at least. I'm good. I don't need to try. I don't want it. I don't want it. This is where we're

Reneera asks about Adam's parentage and he says his mom's a ship, right? He does not reveal. He chooses not to reveal that Corlis is his father, which was quite fascinating. Reneira asks if any of his ancestors are Targaryens looking for a tie to that Targ-blood line, as Corlis will pursue a similar line of inquiry with Alan later. And Adam says he doesn't know. The show is keeping that possibility open, though, as we mentioned earlier. He says, we're not the sort of family to keep adults.

And then we see Reneera smile. We see Reneer almost in like kind of a fevered state. I think fevered state is how I would describe where we find Reneer in the conversation with Masarius. Shortly there's like a heavy breathing, a blooming smile of, oh my God, all of the... I didn't think this was possible. And it is, I'm glad of it. And then invites Alan, or Adam, excuse me, to Dragonstone. It becomes more sinister than more you watch it.

because the first time you watch it, you're like, so nice. We like Adam. Reneer needs help. Great. And like you were nervous for them. But then they like, you know, she's like, I'm glad of it. And you're like, yes, Renair needs help. This is great.

Adam will help her. When you rewatch it with the threads of this episode and particularly informed by some of the interviews that we got, not just from Condal, but Emma Darcy giving a couple interviews into Renair's state of mind in this episode. What we'll get to becomes a much more sinister, unfortunately, at the end of that in exchange. This is a worrying. This is like an exciting, hey, yeah, Team Black, we did it.

We've got the Dragon Math, Edge episode. And this is a deeply worrying Reneer episode. What does it mean if you were willing to sacrifice the small folk and mass for your ends? What does it mean if you think your mission is ordained by the gods? What's 43 small folk? Troubling. We are concerned. We got two drivers.

Yeah. treating Allison's arm wound. He is cleaning this slice that she got in the riot last episode, the one that reminds her of the slash that she gave to Reneira on Drift Mark in the first season. But Joe, I think we could say it's the wounds on the inside that need tending right now for these characters. Anyone out for some camping? I thought it was really fascinating that Olivia Cook said that this wound and this conversation about this scar that we get here, is the very reason why.

The cut itself is the very reason why Allison decides to leave. That as cutsy and a little on the nose as I find the fact that they get a cut in the exact same place to Alicent, it just signals like how futile all this is. Futile, all of this is, like that, you know, for us to go from there to here, it's just, it keeps happening. and what have I even ever accomplished after all of this? Yeah, which is essentially what she says Orwell here. Right. She says, all my life, I have endeavored to serve both my house in the realm, and somehow none of it mattered.

We are cast aside or hated. What did you make of the fact that Orwhile is the one of the receiving end of this, like, incredibly vulnerable admission from Allison? I found it so sad that the only person she had to say this to was, Orwhile. I also just want to know who is this wee. What do you mean by a we? Certainly not Orwell who still has a spot on the council in like extreme proximity to the king, you know, currently, etc. So does she mean the high towers? Does she mean auto as well as herself? Women? In the realm? No, yeah. Is she talking about women? But if she's talking about women, like it's just interesting for her. I know. She feels like she has no other person to talk to. But Orwell is an interesting recipient for that. I would encourage Alicent to try to talk to her bug daughter more often.

She tries. We've seen her try sometimes. But maybe from the safety of an interior space. No more trips out. Inside chats. Inside chats. For those, please. But I feel like Orwell is one person you can talk to.

But I feel like let's keep trying to shore up that Helena connection. Like, that feels like a better recipient for something like. this. Helena might say something inscrutable and bug related in response, but like, I feel like she's, I feel like she's listening. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Obviously, Renera is on Allison's mind when she's saying this on our mind as well. And then thus, of course, like, their history together, there are conversations about duty have to be on our minds. Joe, how did this play for you just more generally? Like, this is something we talk about all the time across seasons one and two with Allison, the way that Allison has lived her life for duty in some ways that feel very true and real in terms of the prominence she puts

on the idea of duty, but also then the way that duty has sometimes been the veil of justification for the decisions or choices or bargains that Allison has made. Do this feel, how did that part sit for you? Yeah, I mean, I think ever since you and Mitchell said to us in the chat that we had with him a couple weeks ago, this, I believe he used the phrase, like love and duty, which just the core theme of our show. That's just been rattling around my brain because obviously we've been talking about love versus duty, like, since Mr. Amon was talking to John Snow at the wall about it,

like you and I have been thinking about this for years and years and years and years and years. But to consider it the main core of the show, then you can think of like anything in that love or duty binary. And so this idea that Alicent has sacrificed perhaps some things that she, loves. Like when we meet Allison, and whether or not you want to take it literally with Alison Reneer, which I choose to, but you don't have to. But like when we meet Allison and Reneer as girls and like the things that they shared together,

the time they shared together, that carefree era of their life, that was like life and pursuits of loves, be those like, you know, just freedom, girlhood, all this sort of stuff like that. And then Otto comes swooping in with duty. Here's your duty. Go read to the old king. You know, like go. him company, that sort of stuff. And so the way that duty has swallowed love for Allison.

And then there are ways in which Reneira has shirked duty for pursuit of love or pleasure, if you prefer. I think there's like various shades of love. I think it's just interesting to think about. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, I think our modern sensibility would tell us that love is more important than duty, but I'm not sure. at the end of the day, what the Thronean universe thinks of that. Yeah, I love that. What an interesting thing for us to continue to track an idea that we cherish. We're getting to talk about a lot of our favorite things.

Huber's of Control, love is the death of duty, wear it like armor. What a time. What a time to be the House of Ar. Did you also, I have to assume that you were thinking, as we discussed, I talk to the Throids, about the Reini's, we're going to talk about Rainis and Renera elsewhere, but the Reney's Allison conversation that we loved so much in the penultimate episode of season one. And yet you toil in service to men, your father, your husband, your son, you desire not to be free but to make a window in the wall of your prison idea. Like it just feels like that must have been something that Allison's has been thinking about almost every second since that exchange.

We talked about this last week about this idea of her like being framed to look like she's inside of a cage. So this idea that she, like, goes out and finds the biggest guy she can find, makes a lot of sense to me for Allison's in this moment. Yes. Beyond the window at last into the, quote, pond, as Chris called it. That was a delight. Love that guy. Love that guy. Joe, another boy, what a time to be house of our moment came when or whilst like, it's going to leave a scar.

You'll be able to hide it. And then Allison looks over and says, nothing is clean here and sees a rat eating filth off the floor. We were really back in season one, season one here. Here's our guy Preston making an appearance on the video. If you're just listening to this, you won't see Preston, but Joanna is holding a stuffed rat that she has procured for the studio. He's been here. How do you feel about the return of Rat Cam?

I was delighted. And I was like, Laris, is that you? Leris, are you listening? I'm glad you were delighted. I remained despondent that they did not do what happened in fire and blood and just bring in, like, legions of cats to control the rats after the racists. They might be around somewhere. There might be cats around in the margins somewhere.

I would love for season three to see some cats just trotting across the same. Cats are notoriously easy to work with on a film set. So, you know, I'm sure they'll do that. I mean, the Florican performers were great. Let's just get them in here. Have you ever heard Oscar Isaac talk about working with a cat on Inside Loua Davis? I love that movie, but the cat stuff makes me quite sad. It's the funniest thing you've ever heard.

Like, Oscar Isaac has never had a worst time in his life. Not even under the apocalypse makeup. Not even when he had to say somehow Palpatine return. Then when he had to work with a cat and we love cats, but a nightmare. I love cats and I'd love to see them with a show. I'm standing on this corner and I won't leave it. I won't leave it. Sorry, Oscar.

Why would I disagree with you? Joe Alicant finds Sir Rickard in the hall, asks him to escort her to the Kingswood. Only him. No retinue. No handmaidens. She still can't trust her handmaidens. she still can't trust her handmaidens, we have to assume,

because these are the people we should remember who Laris placed there, just feeling like spies all around her, nobody she can trust. Haven't seen good old eyebrows since Blood and Cheese. I'm just saying, she vanished. Yeah. Good old eyebrows. Wow, you made an impression.

She really didn't. I hope she comes back to see something. As we just mentioned, every time, Allison takes a lane out, something terrible happens. One of her sons is just moaning and wailing and falling over and breaking things as he tries to heal. One of her sons fired her. Her husband is dead. Her father's still M.I.A.

Her brother. Her lover. Off to war. She is just so alone. And you feel that in seeking and having this conversation with Orwell in seeking out Sir Rickard. Allison has no friends, nobody to truly trust in, confide in, or share life with right now. That's how it feels in this moment. It is heartbreaking.

Ladies, this is what happens when you align yourself with a patriarchy. Have some female friends while you do that. Oh, man. Lessons abound. It's the thrill of my life to tell you that it's time to talk about Laris. Can you always introduce them with like a rubbing together of your hands? Like you're plotting and scheming at this very moment. This is the stuff final. I mean, it's not just a Laris scene.

It's not just a Laris and an Ironrod seed. It is a Laris and Iron Rod scene on the... This is to stop the Lionel of his Saris. Lionel Perch. What a treat. Once again, I am forced to say, what a time to be the house of our. And the way that this was like shot and framed this sequence was so cool.

We get these profile shots, these side glances from both Lyrus and Ironrod that kind of like heighten the sense that they're strategizing. They're sizing each other up. But also that, of course, we get to like witness Amen, sending our guys, Marty and Eddie, to the wall. What an end for the pussy posse. We genuinely loved you and we will miss you.

But that's just kind of playing out in the backdrop of the scene, that, like, rhythm of life. There must be so popular on the wall. They're going to be like the pip and grind on the wall. It's going to be the making of them. I see it. I love this. When will we get the Marty and Eddie spin off? Oh, yeah.

They're going to be like in Mollstown. They're going to be like in Mollstown. Can't wait for Marty to corrupt all of the Nights watch recruits. watch recruits by taking them to Molesdown and saying he's never fucked a woman. Let's hear this conversation. And then let's talk about how you're interpreting it and everything we think is at play here. Steve, hit us.

I've received word of a matter of great importance. Rumor of the sighting of the dragon sea smoke. With the rider. Find a piece of intelligence. And now you seek favor by delivering it to prentainment. Actually, I thought I might. seek your advice, Lord Larisper's being your province. Oh, but this is your whisper, Lord Jasper, not mine. But if you consider it valuable, perhaps you could deliver it and find

favour with Amon yourself. Oh, but this is your whisper. Or Jasper, not mine. I love this. Okay, the framing that you mentioned, and we talked about on Talk the Thrones, but the framing of Amon and the background. One of the many things that it is giving us, one of the things that's giving us is like, Amon just looks so small. And like he looms so large in this world, large on his biggest dragon in the world and all this or stuff like that. But when it comes to the puppet masters of a palace conspiracy, what is an Aymand Targary and

but another little puppet on their string, right? And so to like frame him as this tiny little toy figure. like the one behind you right over your shoulder quite literally like someone behind you right over your shoulder when like to frame him like that you know which is not to say that like it's that's not really like a

a spoiler because like the power just sort of you know power resides where men believe it resides and it's not that Amund is always going to be a puppet for these two like sometimes the dragon writers are the biggest thing in the world

but sometimes their strings get pulled by other people. We talked about this a lot last week. We talked about Masaria. We talked about Laris and we talked about Alice in the way in which they were sort of cozing up to these very powerful dragon writers, these Targaryan dragon writers. What strings can they pull? How can they shift the sands in one way or another? In this episode, and we'll get to it, we see diminutive Oscar Tully, you know, pulling Damon around. And so I think just that visual of like tiny little Eamon Targaryen and these two men who make a very significant decision here.

Huge. Because like part of it is, it's nuanced, right? So part of it is I don't want to be the one to tell him. Remember when various people in the small council meeting told him things a couple weeks ago. And now Kristen Cole has to go fight a battle and Thailand has to go treat with pirates. And Allison got fired. Like, we don't want to put our necks on the chopping block in that regard, right? So it's like, why don't you tell him?

Why don't you tell him? So that's all part of it. But also, it feels like, especially with Laris after his being embarrassed by Amon at the Small Council last week, also it feels like a, maybe I don't want to tell Amon that this threat to his power is brewing. It really feels, it felt to me, I think you're going to try. interpreted a number of ways, but it really felt to me like Laris was kind of gaslighting DASPR when he's like, perhaps his best left to the wind. You know what I mean? Like when he's like, oh, you heard it from a squire, heard it from a stable hand,

or heard it from it. You know, like, that's kind of shaky, fake news, like unreliable sources there. But I'm sure that Laris has acted on less, you know what I mean? Because the best information can come from your squires and your fishermen and your stable hands and stuff like that. So, yeah, so one has to wonder. And this is pure speculation. It's not necessarily informed by anything we know for the books. Like, yeah, is this a hilarious play of like, let him twist.

He let me twist, let him twist, you know? Right. Yeah, do they think based on what they've witnessed, it's too late to try to curry favor with Amon. Like, he's not the kind of leader that's going to work with. is it an active attempt to withhold and punish of retribution for that you towed shaming? I think I agree there's a number of different ways that we can interpret it.

I like the gaslighting of... Because when Jasper runs through that, like, that's pretty good, actually. Yeah. That's a pretty good whisper network, and it was so cool not only in that scene where we follow that custody of information, but also then later where we watch Masario's instructions

go from Allen into the fish skiffs eventually into Alinda's hand tracking these networks on each side of how information is moving with such a delightfully specific bit of visibility into the nature of communication

and the flow of information and the story and then for Laris be like not so great actually like are you sure you want to pass it along whatever his motivation is for whether he wants this news to reach Amen there's also then the always like the thinking about how another person

is going to be positioned compared to you in the council. So all of that felt like it was a play. And like it really reminded me of that great season one, various Littlefinger conversation in front of the Iron Throne. When O'Learyo is in town, you know, since you last saw me or since I saw you, specifically because on the one hand, in both of these scenes, I think there is something obvious about what is driving each party, but then also something totally inscrutable to be able to like pull all of that off at once

to leave us really wondering what is driving a decision, but also say, like, I think I have the measure of you. It's a hard thing to do. And it felt, like, expertly achieved and very scintillating in a scene like this. So it was just great. And just cloaked in this sort of, like, smiling, smiling, smarmy, you know, courtliness. I just, yeah, I really loved it. And we get that great look then from Amund up at Lyris.

Like, at the end of the scene, that was also delightful. And then later, of course, when the dragon, when Silverwing makes its way into the city. Great look, fascinating, rich look, passes between Laris and Ironrod. And you know they're like, oh, is it C-Smoke? The thing we didn't tell Aymond about. Of course, it's not. But like, you can feel that playing through. There's so much that you can read and just a look passing between these characters. We would be remiss if we did not quickly note before we leave the scene that we do once again hear a discussion of Rana's failed attempt to claim a dragon yet another mention. And we learn here that it was C-Smoke, the failed attempt, when

Raina was 14. Tough look for Raina. Tough look for Raina that literally everyone everyone knows this. It's not ideal. Let's feel terrible. Let's feel absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible.

We will have another wonderful layer scene to discuss later. Anything else on this one before we move to the next scene? No, let's go to my favorite. Keltygar. Your guy. Your guy, big Bart.

What a blessing that Alfred Broome has just been sort of swept out of the narrative for a couple episodes that we haven't had to check in on it. This is how long it takes, sir Alfred. It's how long it takes to get from Dragonstone to Haran Hall if you're not on a dragon back. Oh, man. I, uh, I got to say, I am loving this energy from Keltygar. I find this to be hilarious, like genuinely hysterical.

He's just so embarrassed clearly about Ranier's slapping him. in a view of the household staff, word rapidly traveling through Dragonstone. Everybody knows what happened. And he's just like slamming his goblet on the table, on the painted table throughout this conversation and saying things like, a cominer with respect to your workers, Lord Gorlis,

the lowborn cannot go around seizing dragons. Like, this was just hysterical, like a nice little bit of levity in a quite intense episode. Keltyar, careful laughs. I do want to give, some laurels to Corlis, who I think is a nice sort of calming, steering presence and is, you know, supportive of Renira inside of his job here. Jace is pissed that Renera, yeah, in general, and we'll talk about that at length, obviously. But he's also just like, in the small scale, piss that Reneira has skipped this meeting.

And I just, you know, I just like that, yeah, Reneer skipped the meeting, but Corliss has her hands. And Corlis is there representing her. Yeah. It's like, it's okay. We'll wait for the Queen's judgment. And then we'll figure it out. Everyone chill. Part of what is making Jason and everyone other than Corlis.

So unhappy here is like not just that Renera is not at the meeting. Obviously, like you said, we'll talk about everything that is driving Jason's resentment later in the rich and riveting. Jace Reneera conversation about being a bastard. They learned that not only is Adam not being treated as a thief. he's invited to stay as a guest. Readying, Gerardis says, to learn the ways of dragon riding. Reniro wants him to learn some high Valerian too.

He has just immediately been brought into the fold. And Jace's face here just tells us everything we need to know about how displeased he is. They're like the tailors are with him right now, getting his leathers together. On the subject of like teaching him high Valerian, do you think it would be nice to have some flashcards ready for the dragon seas as they got off the boat to dragon.

The dragon's tone towards the end of this episode. Just be like... The dragon seeds... They could have used... I know Reneer is like, I have nothing left to tell you. It must be the dragon who speaks. It's like, are we sure we have nothing left to tell them? Are we sure we have nothing left to tell them?

One word of a lyric. Just like one. Please stop. No, I'm not food. Something like that. I respect you. I expect your autonomy. Something.

A dragon is not a slave. I know that. I don't know. Yeah, we've got a lot of notes on that and a lot of notes on maybe staggering the arrivals. Like, let's just send about it waves. Like, it's just all at once. It really does seem like it was bound only go one way. All right, Joe.

Reneira is not at the council meeting because she is, once again, debriefing with Masaria and only Masaria. She's fed up broadly with her advisors, but she's trust Missaria. And she is starting to trust herself and her own instincts too. part of that is like, great, yes, you should, we love it. And again, as mentioned, and as we will discuss at length in this scene, we have some concerns about where those instincts might be leading, Renera. Let's talk about that.

Because this other thing that is driving Renira is manifested in a number of different seasons in the episode, we're going to talk about it all here. So when Masari says it's lucky, uses the word lucky, to describe Adam deciding to serve Reneera and not himself. Renira says, lucky or somehow ordained. Sea Smoke chose him. So we hear this similarly like alarming language later in the Jace Renira scene. That's the gainsay line.

We hear this when Reneera confronts the exodus of the dragon keepers. We see it undeniably on Reneer's face when she touches Vermithor, when Vermethore it heeds her summons. So let's, even though it's such as the episode, kind of talk about the implications of this here. Dangerous, alarming words. And if you think your mission is ordained, if you think your mission is divined, then we have to ask, like, is there anything that you won't do, anything you won't try? And is there anything you won't be able to justify to yourself?

Crucially, before we get into these core passages here that we want to talk about, this idea of justification is something that has been so prevalent in the show. And it's a key part of this adaptation challenge because George in Fire and Blood is writing this very sort of bare bones history of like, and then the dragons danced. And then this happened. And Allison, that bitch queen, hated Reneer, that bitch princess and like all this or something like that. And Condal, et cetera.

And I'm sure George, because, you know, he has thoughts and feelings about the, bias of the historians writing this book. But their mission is to take those thinly sketched out people who commit atrocities. Yes. And turn them into human beings that we can recognize. And part of that challenge is a way to combat that is this idea of justification. How do you justify the horrors that you perpetrate? And for Allison, it's like she's been justifying it with, this is what Vassaris wanted on his deathbed.

He milk of the poppy moaned this and told me that it was what should be done. You know, and for Reneer, she's been like talking about the prophecy this way all season, et cetera. But like, it's moving into a different territory that is a lot slipperier. So what did you want to say about this? Yeah, to that point, like the way that Reneer has been talking about the prophecy, that feels worth just like spending a second on because if we go back now to the way Reneera shared this information, shared Egg on the Conqueror's Dream with Jace, some of the specific language stands out anew.

Reneer said in the fourth episode of this season, I never told you because I was unsure that I believed it myself. that is now a thing that we are watching shift, right? Now I have belief and I have justification. Here we go. All right, the quote continues. The Targaryen who sits the Iron Throne is not just a king or queen. They are a protector.

Ordained to lead the seven kingdoms. So there's that ordained language again. To strengthen them and to unite them against a common foe. Veseris chose me to succeed him. He held to this his whole life, the whole of his life. My father believed that I alone was made. meant to be this protector, but to unite the realm,

I had to send the dragons to war. Had to, Joe. Had to. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. What is wrapped up in that? It has to be for this larger reason. And so we are feeling.

Divine purpose. Yeah. Building and blooming of Renira drinking the prince that was promised. Kool-aid. Renira thinking, I am the chosen one. And we know that.

that her family is prone to these kinds of like prophetic obsessions. As we've talked about many a time, Viseras, that great scene by the bonfire where he's just letting out everything drunk completely to Alicent. And he says, I so wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. I sought that vision again night after night, but it never came again. I poured all my thought and will into it. My obsession killed Reneira's mother. So we haven't, we need only go back. one family member to see when Viseras names Reneer Air, it's by telling her Egan's prophecy, but also we saw her an obsession with a different dream,

his dream of his son wearing the Conqueror's Crown, led him and what it means to put all your stock in this godly prophetic sense of what your life is going to look like and what bearing that will have on the realm. And Reneer was not always a character who felt like she had to say these things out loud, Joe, right? When she saw the white heart, did she tell anybody about it? No, and what I love about this is like when that white heart thing happened, again, in the show, not the book.

You and I really liked it and we liked this idea of, but we were curious about it. I think we were curious about it. Like, what is this doing here, especially if she's not going to tell anyone? What does it mean that it's here? What it means to me now is that some of the ideas that are brewing around who this version of Renera is, which again is an embellishment from the book is something that was on their mind from the jump, from the get-go. That white stag, which is this sort of like blessing, this sign and portent from on high

that you are the chosen one is something, you know, that feeds into this larger fire here. This chosen one, this demolition. We love talking about a chosen one. This is like a sort of demolition of that chosen one archetype That we talked about This is the anti-I-I-don't-wanted narrative That I guess I've been asking for But I'm a little scared to get it now

Right? But this is like, I mean, you could not see Rainer at the end of this, you know, we heard last week As recently as last week Or in this episode, right? Does if Sarah says Reneer didn't want it, right? Like, I don't know if Moldy Versaeris said it But like certainly we heard this said it

hear Alice and Damon talk about it. Right. Damien saying it. And then this week, Viseris is like the burden. It destroys people. Burden. But did Vesera say Reneira didn't want it? I think that was, my point is, that was definitely a Damon and Alice conversation. So there's this concept that Reneer doesn't want it.

But I don't think you can look at Reneer's face at the end of this episode or like while she's watching 43 innocent dragon seeds plus her guards get torched and say, this is a woman who doesn't want it. You know, and so according to Emma, which I think is really interesting, Emma Darcy, as I mentioned, gave a couple of really fascinating interviews, one to the rap and went to British GQ after this episode aired. A lot of this is connected to Renier grieving Viseris that she shoved her head. We've seen her in the library constantly, looking at books, looking at scrolls. You've been tracking the sort of Vesnia stuff. But I think what's interesting is like, and we had mentioned like, oh, this is, this is her kind of in Vassaris mode.

Vesaris loved his history books. But like reading those books has to only fuel the flames of this idea of Targaryan exceptionalism, right? This is Targaryen propaganda writ into the history books. This idea, stoking the belief in her own like godlike status. But the fact that she did all of that because she missed her dad, according to Emma Darcy, is like so heartbreaking. I mean, this is a very actorly kind of connection that Emma has drawn, but I really love it as a motivation. So Emma said to British GQ, in lieu of that, in lieu of the relationship with her father and with the support of her father. So in lieu of that, quote, there's that searching through the history.

I think imagining that at some point her name will feature next to her father's is in some way comforting. And I find it very moving to see a person who, in grief, has committed themselves to history books. But what's wild and interesting to me is like we're going to talk a little bit more about blood sacrifice a little bit later on. But this idea that like, Vesera's. Amazing sentence. You could say, stay tuned for the blood sacrifice chat. You can see the Vassar's doomed the future by lingering too long in the past, right? Like he neglected what was going around him to build his models and read his books and think about the fact that if we don't study the past, we're doomed to repeat it.

But like, in doing so and in creating this current scenario, what we saw the red sewing is the closest thing we've seen to old Valeria shit thus far in Game of Thrones. And so in a way, Vassaris himself sort of brought about the returnable Valeria, which is something that he was constantly concerned about. And I just think that, like, I also have been thinking about in terms of drinking the Kool-Aid. But the thing is, like, she's drinking the Kool-I but Reneer is also, she's also pouring the Kool-Aid. She's Jim's Jonesing her way through the end of this episode. But, like, I was also thinking of the other Vassaris, the Vassaris we met in season one of Game of Thrones, DeNaris's brother, who says fire cannot burn a dragon, like, unless it's, I guess, molten gold on my head.

Like, the Saris, who had so bought into the hype of Targaryan exceptionalism to a degree that made him look foolish. And I wouldn't call Rainer a foolish. I don't think I'll ever be in a position to call Rainer a foolish. But, yeah, how seductive and. dangerous this idea is fascinating and I think

I think it's so interesting to contrast Rineira's like old goddy religious conversion arc that she's

on in this episode to Allison's more like empty institutional level faith that like still don't

I still don't really understand what religion means to her I think I understand again we've talked about this

we've talked about her lighting candles in the sept. We've heard from her as a child what that meant to her. But in terms of like the actual teachings of the seven, like, I don't know that I really understand what Allison's connection is to that. And I feel like she felt more connected to something spiritual, watching a hawk fly above her in a pond in this episode than anything we've seen in the seps. But thinking about the sept, I was thinking about that moment with Alison and Renier in

the septe, which we loved Mission Impossible, Kingsley. landing. When Reneira, who has been floundering, who had been floundering all season, fluttered a bit after that, but floundering and floundering, and when she drills down on Allison and gets the confirmation that actually Viseris did still believe in her. Yes. I thought that was like a personal father-daughter confirmation that she needed. My dad really did believe in me. And it was. Right. But also. But I don't think the religious setting. there is an accident in terms of what it did to Rainier's psychology. Yeah, yeah.

Great call. Great call. That feels incredibly intentional now as a setting. I love considering that grief and pursuit of the histories as a bond to Vassarous idea because it also is like, you know, like you're saying, it's hard not to think then that, or ask, well, In seeking that connection, in feeling like she has emerged as this prophetic figure, as this messianic figure, has Reneira forgotten? Has Reneer lost sight of? Fissaris's number one lesson to her. The thing that he drew the most attention to in this big speech when he named her heir, the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They're a power mention never have trifled with.

One that brought Valeria, it's a doom. If we don't mind the histories, it will do the same to us. Is that something that Reneira is still considering? Is that on her mind as a counterweight when we head into the sewing? It doesn't feel like it. It feels like that has been subsumed. Well, I feel like when she calls Vermethor and Vermethor answers, that's the moment that any last, any last lingering idea that she's thinking of,

about that from Missaris, she's like, well, maybe for other people, but not for me. Dangerous. Dangerous and troubling. Okay, let's talk about the rest of this Renira Masaria scene. So Renera's still thinking about Adam's blood. She says, must have targ blood. Sea smoke must have sensed it. And Masari asked about this idea of trust. Do you trust Adam? And Renara says she has no choice. And this is like a fascinating way for us to just think about the state of play right now. like allies on nukes who you don't know, right? And from Reneer's perspective in this moment, it's like, well, I have to trust him because

of the dragon math. Like, we're always thinking about how we can face Vagar and what choice do we have. And then this leads into this conversation about like, how can we find more riders, this idea of the more direct line of breeding than Stefan had. And upon hearing that, Masaria, like, laughs, chuckles, kind of a shocking moment in real time. And then says, forgive me your great. but you were better served looking under the sheets and in the wood piles. Masaria got mushrooms famous fire and bloodline.

When Jace pointed out that Storm Cloud had never been ridden, that moon dancer was but a hatchling, the Tyraxies was far away in the veil with Prince Joffrey and demanded to know our mushroom, proposed to find more dragons. The dwarf tells us he laughed and said, under the sheets and in the wood piles, wherever you Targaryens spill your silver seed.

Vivid, as we always expect from mushrooms. This growing theory in the fandom that I love that Masaria's actually mushroom is like killing me. Some incredible. Incredible stuff. Masaria tells her near her she's aware four score targ bastards at least

from her time in the pleasure house in Kings Landing. The misbegotten offspring of your house, she calls them. Joe, for the bad babies, a quick refresher. Just what a dragon seat is? Great question. A dragon seed is an illegitimate child of a Targaryen. Here's the history of Dragon Seas in the first night, this idea of Premanocta, the idea that a Lord could, a Targaryian Lord could sleep with your, yeah, definitely my faith.

You love making the cruel. I love Prima Nocta. What are we doing here? The idea that the Targaryian Lord can sleep with your wife on your wedding night because normal. They're gods. What are you going to do? They've got dragons.

From Fire and Blood, quote, here, brides thus blessed. upon their wedding nights were envied, and the children born of such unions were esteemed above all others for the lords of dragonstone off-celebrated the birth of such with lavish gifts of gold and silk and land to the mother. These happy bastards were so to have been born of dragon's seed and in time became known simply as seeds. That being said, good Queen Alessane was like, I don't like that. I don't want it happening anymore. Get that out of here. So Prebenoxa essentially, not legal anymore. It still happened, not legal. But so then the idea of a dragon scene as this like sort of cherish thing, I think, goes away is the idea.

And then it just becomes a bit more like the rando rabble that Masaria and Alinda sort of round up from Kings Landing. Like this is how you get a hue in an office. They're certainly not venerated for their seedy properties. So, yeah. Right. Reneira's initial response to this suggestion was fascinating, quite unflattering. Not a good one for the royals this episode.

Some tough stuff from Runeira and some very tough stuff coming from Jace. She doesn't trust the lowborn. She says in the highborn houses, there is an ancient fealty. There is honor. Now, we should note in the interest of fairness here that there is like a practical element at play in what Reneira is saying here. With your vassal houses,

there's accountability in the form of an oath. Now, have we seen broken oath? Sure. So many mouths that make you swear and swear? I think it's underlined elsewhere with all the Oscar Tully stuff that we get, right? Like the River Lords and something like that. It's like, we're all coming in line.

Stitch together by oaths. Because of a vow that Oscar's grandsire gave to the Saris, you know? Damon made that Difficult for a while, but at the end of the day, we're stitched together by Oves. I can't. Can't wait to talk about that scene.

So there is that. But it feels undeniable that there's also some prejudice at play here. And then we have to remember how Reneura talked about the small folk in the fourth episode of last season on a little city jaunt with Damon when she said their wants are of no consequence. Tough. Masario Swayzer by asking, and this was a great counter, will your royal brothers of their pure blood, how much honor have they shown by usurping your throne and then says, the order of things has changed your grace.

Why not embrace it? Joe, the order of things. What did it make you think of? What did it make Renira think of? Season one, episode two, Renera's like, guess what I heard in the very first trailer for House of the Dragon back in 2020, whenever that happened, 2021? When I am queen, I will create a new order, is what Millie Alcock said as Renewalk said. Rainira Targaryen, a young, brash, teen.

So, like, that's great. That's all great and good. And let us raise an army of bastards. A great slogan. Love that. Put it on the merch. Yes. But this is, Masaria has been doing her job and incepting some concepts into Renair.

Reneira is still saying some, like, shitty things about the small folk. But at the end of the day, two small folk are now dragon writers and that's not happening if Masaria isn't there in Dragonstone sort of working her personal agenda. Yes, the rise of the small folk.

This is what Masaria wants. So that moment then that let us raise an army of bastards line that you just quoted when Ranera says that. Like we get this brief moment before that Ranira alluding to her own personal history the whispers across the realm going on since Jace was born about her kids,

the first three sons, parentage and she decides to lean it. going to talk about all of the fucked up and twisted and alarming parts of this when we get to the Jase scene. But there is also a little bit of a, this is Reneerra's.

This could be Reneeras wear it like armor moment, right? Never forget what you are for surely the world will not make it your strength, then it can never be your weakness. Now it is not purely only that. There's complexity at play here. We'll talk about the rest of it. But this is here too, right? If everybody's going to whisper, if everybody's going to talk, if everybody's going to say your kids are bastards anyway, then why not wear it like armor and say we're team bastard?

Now we'll get to the why not. Jay says some thoughts on the why not coming. Yeah. But this is here too, right? I really like this. Again, we mentioned, I think last week when we were talking about this idea of bastardy across Thrones and what George is done with it. Like when we think about John Snow, we think about rammed. you know, we think about Gendry, et cetera, et cetera.

And this idea that, like, George loves Shakespeare. He took this, like, Shakespearean concept, which is, like, all bastards are, like, villains. Like, you know, have an agenda, have anger issues that they're working through. Keanu Reeves' Don John and much ado about nothing. It's just like, I'm a plane-dealing villain, right? Like, there isn't much, like, in the way of, like, nuanced. wants motivation there. And the fact that he's like, I think this concept could use some examination and some complications. And I think I'm so glad we're spending time with it here.

Let's talk about more about more bastards. Team bastards. Let's talk about both scenes. The next scene is Corliss seeking out Adam. Corliss seeking out Alan comes a little later. But let's talk about them together here. So first, Corlis finds Adam. He's waiting alone in a fancy room of Dragonstone. I found it difficult not to think about Gendry. in Throne season three here. It's different, of course, like Adam wants to be here. He's claimed a dragon.

This is a thing that he is now seeking and pursuing. Gendria has no idea that they're about to, like, leach him for his bastard's blood. But still, there's this, like, a bastard brought in to the halls of the great lords to be upon on the board of some great lords game that I found, like, inescapable and seemingly deliberate in the framing

of how we first found this figure alone in this fancy room. Give them some friends. Let's talk about this conversation between Adam and Corlis. I was so moved by the look on Adam's face when his father walked into the room and then the look on his face again after the well done. Just an incredible performance here. Incredible.

Clinton Liberty is doing a great job. Yeah. Crushing it. So we had a mini debate with Chris on Talk to Thrones because we both found this well done that Corlis issued here to be quite cold. And Chris was like, you are not a son of a father. This was like an offer to play catch.

We really did not read the scene the same way. So I still feel that this is like not a full emotional embrace here. I stand on that, I stand on that read, but I was, I will say I was really compelled by what friend of the pod,

Steve Toussaint said on the inside the episode, when he said being initially shocked, Corliss is then very proud. It's because that's my son. Off his own back, he's made something of himself. And I think that's very important for Corliss because that's how he sees himself. And hearing him say that, of course, made me think then of what Corliss says to Damon in season one episode two, waiting in the stepstones is a chance for you to prove your worth to any who

might yet doubt it. We are the realm's second sons, Damon. Our worth is not given. It must be made. I think both of those things can be true, though. I think that Corlis can look at Adam and feel our worth is not given. must be made and feel pride and also be a little bit cold by hand-waving the I don't want to be a shipwright anymore request. Sure, you got it. Well done. And then leaving. Where are you on this? I'm willing to concede that Chris is more right than we were in his read of the scene, at least how the show intends it. Yes, definitely. We did get this great email I thought from Kevin, probably also a son of a father, who says, y'all love a character on an arc. And this just showed the start of Corliss is within his son's.

and actually showing emotions. While he's not quite ready to fully claim them and get them legitimized, he still was feeling things and wanting to say something, and you could tell how proud he was and that good luck, and you'd see on Adam's face

how much that meant to him. The fact of the matter is, Corley's probably doesn't know how to feel he's going through a lot, and he had just come out and been like, if he had just come out and been like, hell yeah, that's my boy, I'm so proud of you. You're amazing.

Even in private, it would have been totally against what we know of the character. I would have taken you out of the episode. So Kevin wrote in his support of Chris, and Steve Toussaint is also a person, apparently team Chris Ryan. So we'll just continue to watch this character on an arc. I will say for me...

See our heads. What a win. Yeah. I would say for me. Pretty frosty. But listen. Yeah. Just like a little like, you know, I know we haven't talked much.

Yeah. I'll visit again soon. Yeah. Anything? Do you need anything? Do you have enough blankets? If Rainies were here, she would bring you warm bra. Sad.

Bread's still hot. Let's talk about the Allen scene. Take us through it. All right. So we go back to our favorite set, which they have just used a lot of the season, which is the docs. And Corley says Aline has a task that needs, quote, your personal attention. And I think it's wild. I mean, I don't know.

I guess if I were Adam, maybe I'd just be giddy and overwhelmed by my giddying assent. Now I am a dragon writer, and I'm at Dragonstone. But I would maybe the first thing I would do is try to get a raven to my brother to be like, Alan, my best friend at all the world. Let me tell you something. But instead it's Corley's who gets to break the news to Alan. That is brother's dragon writer. And so Coily says to Alan, quote, she now makes the call for others. Our people are of old Learia, you're no dragon lords.

I confess I knew little of your mother's heritage. If it is something in the blood. And then Alan says, my brother was ever restless, yearning for some sign of his worth. I am of sultan sea. I yearn for nothing. So, like, this is pretty loaded. You already alluded to in our sort of, like,

dragon pairing. How does it happen section? But, like, this idea that we're being sort of pushed in the direction that Adam and Allen's mom might be a dragon scene is sort of like a potential. implication of what's happening here. Like that Corlis is like, is she? I didn't bother to get to know her. What about her?

Never asked. Tough stuff. Her hair is pretty blonde, but so is mine. And then, then we get that salt and sea line reading, which, so, on the one hand, there's like a couple, you've noted here in our notes here that, like, there are a couple moments at the season that, of course, leading us in this direction when Corley, who's from the very first second we saw Corleys and Alan in this season, the talk was of heirs, right? We have the dagger, which is Joffrey's dagger, isn't that very first scene.

So this has just been like hanging over the entire season. And then later when Corley's is talking to Rainies, Joffrey, a boy of six, who knows nothing of the scene yet somehow, Raina, Lord of the Tides, the girls knows nothing of ships. And then, of course, very recently, episode five, we get his conversation with Beiloh, where he says, Grandin'Art, I would make you my air. And she says, I am blood and fire. Sick.

Driftmark must pass to Salt and Sea. I loved that line. Yeah. I am slightly itchy about Alan saying the exact same thing. Because, like, I think there are ways, I think we were already thinking about Alan. But I think there are ways for him to say something in this conversation that puts that little light bulb over Corley's head of like he doesn't want a dragon. Maybe he wants my chair, my throne. He wants the gig.

That doesn't have to be the literally exact same words that Bela used in that previous scene. That's that like cutesy connection stuff that would happen again in later seasons of thrones that I didn't really like. That being said, I love Alan. I love things for him. I think him calling himself Salton C is pretty sick. So, yeah. Do you think he... Maybe everyone was just walking around

Drift Mark all the time just being like I'm Salt and Sea. Like you're tired of chipping these barnacles? No, I'm Salt and Sea. Maybe this is the stuff. Maybe he and Baila took the same like, you know, 17 magazine quiz where it's like, are you fired blood? Are you set in Salt C?

Did you get Salt and C? Which Hogwarts house are you? I'm Salton C. You know? Great stuff. Great. But now I want Baila and Alan to get like matching shirts

once is fire and blood once is salt and C you know. This is good. It bodes well for some impending inbound merch. It does. Love merch. I am,

I am Sultan C. By the way. I am not fire and blood. In real life, I'm also Salton Cee, you know, also love at Ocean Vista.

In this fictional universe, I 100% am one of the dragon seeds who gets on that boat and walks into the Monde and tries to claim a dragon and it is the burnt It doesn't make it far than that

What are some of the other options? I guess if you're a Riverlander you're like what mud and mud and Yeah stuck sticky mud Mud and branch Mud and branch You know there's many things you can be Dorn your like sun and sand Which is why we should all go to Dorn really

Pretty good Yeah you know Greenwald was greenwell was right On the Dorn corner early But let's go to the Riverlands Joe let's go into that sticky, muddy, swampy place to talk about young Oscar Tully and the Riverlords, repeatedly posterizing Damon Targaryen. This astonishing stuff here. This was a wild sequence.

Before we're out in the godswood with all of the Riverlords assembled, we get a little private chat between Damon and Oscar. Exactly the kind of little like pregame chat. We're always asking characters to have. And I do want to give J. some credit for his later conversation. That's a private conversation. Great call. All we want.

Yeah. Like, yeah. Let's just say these really shocking things to each other. Let's say 40 people are getting around listening. Let's say Mongrel behind closed stores, Chase. Or better yet, not at all. Not at all as well, I was just. If he'd done it at the council table,

Bart would have been like, Oh, yeah, Keltygaard would be like, oh, my guy. I'm trying to say that. Yeah, exactly. Keltygar is like, let me tell you about Project 2025. Do you have a minute to talk about that? Oh, my God.

Oh, dear. Oh, sir Simon. Perfect timing for Simon to make his way into the soundboard, a great idea from Joe. Thank you, Steve. Because Simon is here, of course. We're a heron haul. I feel like my record for latching on to an old veteran actor that I like early in a season has really paid off for me two years in a row.

So just say. Just every second with Sir Stephen has been a gift, a treasure and a half. The only thing that could fill the whole of my heart left by the absence of Lyman Beesbury is Sir Simon Strong. Bees, man, another great mention of House Beesbury from Ironrod in this episode. The beehive. The beehive is thriving. truly so a little preamble from oscar and damon here it's just a we are treated to i think it genuinely instantly iconic truly glorious well done from damans um neither of them mince works damon's like yeah you

were of no of no use to me when we last met and your grand sire was still alive you hadn't no one had actually gotten a feather pillow yet and oscar says damon is made a complete mess of things in the Riverlands. And this is where we get to that Oaths idea. He says, but the Riverlands are built on oaths. And he remembers the one that his house swore to Vassarous. House totally will recognize Reneera as air. And demons look great news.

This is going to be smooth and easy from here. Thrilled to hear it. Not so fast. Oscar's not sure if all of the vassals are going to come in line immediately. He is quite young. And there's another note, Joe, that he's prepared to share here. And it is that all of his vassals, hate Damon Targary and he literally says they all hate you what does Damon say in reply

what did it make you think of um he says I don't need their love I need their sorts which is just incredible stuff Damon everyone needs love uh Laceris told Jora who can rule without wealth or fear or love when he was having a full on tantalus trim about how everyone liked Daeneres more than him. Yeah, he was in a tough spot there. Yeah. I really like this because obviously Damon doesn't have love. That's apparent, but I think it's also apparent that he doesn't have fear either.

We're going to see that again in this scene, but we also heard it in the fifth episode when Lady Malister was like, know this interloper? The Riverlands are an ancient place. Watched closely by the eyes of old gods and new and dragon or no, we shall not raise our banners for a tyrant. Like they are not wild stuff. They are not afraid of the rogue prince. They are not afraid of his dragon.

And in a way that is kind of shocking. And, you know, this is like an interesting part of this larger tapestry across the episode of the season. We've talked already about Renera discussing like, is it blood, is it worth? Whether it's what do you need to be a writer or what do you need to be a ruler and a leader? What do you need to build alliances? Like this question of what qualities are necessary to possess and then how the characters who are in that situation are assessing that and parsing that is.

fascinating. On the leading malister front, does she remind you at all of one of our favorite Rings of Power characters, Malva? And how excited are you that we are about to talk about Rings of Power again? You haven't thought about Malva in a while, but here we are. Mear weeks away. There was a sick new Comic-Con trailer, and were we not hanging on by a thread? Maybe we'd break it down, but we'll just save all that up for when we cover Rings of Power

in earnest. I love this because, so they go up, the shot that Chris loved of them, like, walking out of the tunnel into the godswood. But what I love about this conversation is this is like a, yeah, a pregame chat. And it's an agreement to put on a little bit of theater. Let's go put on a little, let's put on a little show. And I'm going to kick you around in front of the Riverlands, Riverlords. But ultimately at the end of the day, you're going to get what you want, which is them falling in line. I need to kick you around so that they obey me.

I am but a young man. I need to impress upon them that I have authority. So if I kick you around, they will obey me. And in obeying me, I will tell them to obey you. And that is the deal we're going to make. Yeah. This is the deal that we're going to make when we go out here. Now, did Oscar go a little harder than Damon anticipated he would?

Yes. Sure. But I feel like when he's like later when he's like careful boy, a very, a very, very like Tywin moment was a real like I'm up I'm letting you kick me around because we

agreed that it was the right move but come on um give it in bounce incredible behind the scenes

detail from the house the dragons built about the fact that the face in the wherewood tree at Heron Hall is George R.

Martin's face and I just want to say love this for George George seemed like genuinely there was like footage of

George on set, like, looking at something like that. He seemed genuinely, like, thrilled by it. And I don't say justice for George, who I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, I looked, I looked this up, but I was pretty sure I'm right. Did you ever put him in the Hall of Faces? They put a lot of people in the Hall of Faces on Game of Thrones, a lot of, like, people they knew, famous faces, blah, blah. But I don't think George made his way into the Hall of Faces, but here he is in the

goddamn God's what of Aaron Hall. Right by the God's eye. Sick. Wonderful. Love it for George. The stones throw from the Isla Face is exceptional.

What a place to be. What a place to rest. Love it. I also loved Damon addressing the group by saying, put that old unpleasantness behind us.

Your wives, your children, we sacked, you pillaged. Well, let's call it the old unpleasantness. Let's move forward. It's time for you to pledge your fealty to

Oscar Tully and then call your banners. And some folks have some notes. Lord Piper, you have asked me formally in the dock to use his full name, Peter Piper. Peter Piper.

Peter Piper picked a back of Riverlords. And here we are. Well, let's know. First, why would we follow someone younger than, you know, our own sons if you're going to align us with someone who, quote, desecrates the innocent to reach his aims.

What a wonderful reputation to have. And Oscars prepared to address their concerns while savagely dunking on Damon, like, dozens of times in a row, Steve, can we hear this? And I have no love for Damon Targary. He is the sonnet himself and the crown with his comportment here. Nevertheless, having so little experience to guide me, my best course is to defer to the oath my grand sire swore to King Viseris

when he named Reneira his heir. I see no reason to cast a sad loyalty. no matter how loathsome I may find her representative the prince. King Mind your turn, boy. Will you have our honor? Incredible. I love this.

The incredible. Great stuff from Oscar Telly. What a what a showing here. Archie Barnes. His voice is so perfect for this. There are a few moments. I spotted here and I would have to go back and rewatch his earlier appearance

that seemed dubbed back over 80 yard. And actually we got a couple emails about this too. And they were wondering if it was for a change in the wording. I actually think Archie Barnes who was like, I think either 16 or 17 when they filmed this season, he's just got that perfect. My

voice has just changed timbre to his voice. That I almost wonder if they was like, you know, a crack or a, you know, like, you know, we're just trying to get the perfect like just barely a man. Right.

Reitening the gall that David is like, I can't believe I have to just sit here and like eat shit from this literal. Literal boy, literal teenager. Little child. Some wonderful stuff from Sir Simon in this episode. In the scene, what struck you most? First of all, incredible side eye from Sir Simon Strong. He really got himself gussied up for this occasion, which I love.

Our listener, Ryan, says, first of all, he says, I hope y'all are feeling better. I hope you're feeling better, Mallory. I wanted to submit for Fitwash the awesome robes of Sir Simon Strong and Up 7. Not only are they very pretty richly dyed and intricately patterned but I love the idea that this man told David there was no money to fix the leaky

roof and then pulled out his fabulous robes and as soon as real company the river lores arrived. What a king. Yeah, he looks great. Fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Hits us with a side eye, some oh dear. His hair is like combed differently than it usually is.

It's just like, you know, he's having, he's having a, it's Simon's big day out. He got to go out into the courtyard. Look, if you could save your coin, have Damon use his for the repaired, save yours for more candidates for Fit Watch. Yeah. Among us. Aspirational. So, there's one path forward.

Oscar sketches it out. Will and Blackwood must die for his crimes. Damon must be the one to do it. in order to show that he is contrite for his part in this. And there's a moment where Damon thinks intently. And then he rushes over and swings Dark Sister as Willem begs him saying, I have been faithful. So where are you on this?

A massive close-up on Matt Smith in that moment. Just like zoom in on his face. Yeah. Where are you in this? Did it surprise you? Does it still feel surprising at all that Damon struggled at all? Or does this feel right? Once again, the inside the episode is here.

to help smooth over specific questions Joanna and Mallory have about character motivations inside of an episode. Connell says that, quote, Damon isn't the most honorable guy in the world, but I think he does have that kind of mafia honor to him. He's made this sort of life and death pact with Willem Blackwood. Omer Tah, I suppose. So, like, we were like, like, like, Damon just, like happily cut Vaman's head in half in cape his tongue.

Like, why would he be? be so stressed about this. But I guess, according to Condal, there is some sort of code of conduct when it comes to Damon. I like it too. I like it too. I like to the idea that Damon's like, this guy actually did he, you know, use Rear's banner when I told him that there were certain things that we must not be seen doing. He did. But like, he's loyal to me. He'll do the things I need getting done. And that's a loss for Damon. As all of these other people stand around and are like, fuck you, we hate you, we despise you, you've destroyed our home. Will it was like, what do you need, boss?

I think it's also a really fun cycle to think about because the fact that it is, the fact that they used the character of Will and Blackwood, who we met in season one as this like brash young boy who like swooped in at Storm's End and really impress us all in front of Renera and like fucking killed a bracket. Okay. So, like, the fact that that, we're like, what a, what a badass, mouthy little kid? Like, we love this. And then to be taken down by another badass, mouthy little kid from the Riverlands, I think

it's just sort of like, same as it ever was. You know, you live long enough to see yourself become the object of a new teenager's ire. At Mr. Josh, we already sort of covered this when we talked about the framing of Amund versus Laris and Jasper in the courtyard. this idea of proximity and size to power. But our listener Joshua Rin says, visually, this scene generously emphasizes how small Tully is compared to Damon, in a very similar way to how human sizes emphasize next to dragons.

The power imbalance is clear. King's consort versus little boy, dragon versus human. Oscar's Raleigh does not have a dragon, but he is able to bend Damon to his will using diplomatic trickery and clear-eyed understanding of Damon's. weaknesses, what foreign relations walks would call soft power. He lays a trap for Damon to walk into

and gives a few shots off at him in the process enhancing his own image amongst the reliance. So this idea that like Oscar Tully wrote a dragon in this episode, broke a dragon, claimed a dragon, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. Great call. And that felt very just palpable in this scene too. This just like sense of injustice that Damon feels that he has to comply, that he has to be the puppet instead of the puppeteer and do what someone else is telling him. Like, this was supposed to be the great army that he raised.

And then he has to stand here and confront the fact that did he win their swords or did they pledge them despite him? And it's so clearly in the ladder that it has, it can't feel like the victory that Damon thought he was flying out to seek. And then that gets out to what you were, I thought, really smartly identifying on Talk to Thrones on Sunday. That's just like, Damon's got to stare down. what it means to lead, what it looks like,

how you have to spend your time, the compromises that you have to make, the shit you have to eat. Is this the life that Damon Targaryen actually wants to live? Is this how he actually wants to spend his time? No. And that takes us nicely then into his final dream.

We assume and hope his final dream. This is probably it. Last test in the trial. I hope so. I hope so. Back? What did you make of this, Joe? Again, we talked about this on Talk of Thrones.

I think I would have really liked this if it had happened inside of last week's episode. But to have it here felt a little like I thought we had already sort of graduated from ghost therapy. Listen, you're never really done with therapy even when you think you're done. So, you know, here he is. I had someone asked me, like, do I think, you know, if Damon leaves Harren Hall, will he continue to have these visions? these visions which are sort of divisive of the fandom. And I think like unless he makes a camp bed out of wherewood trees, I don't think that he's going to have these visions out outside of Haran Hall.

But this is the exchange, right? What is this? I never wanted it. I was right not to. All the pain it caused. It crushes whoever wears it. You always want it, damn it. Do you want it still?

This is a fascinating question because you've lined up a couple quotes here, which we've been talking about in terms of the I don't want. wanted conversation with Vassaris and Damon. Because, like, real Vassaris didn't think Damon wanted it, right? He says, in the pilot, quote, Damon has ambition, yes, but not for the throne. He lacks the patience for it. So this isn't real Vassaris haunting Damon. This is Damon's projected Vassaris or Alice is crafted Vassaris, whatever you prefer.

This dream ghost or the wherewood conjured Vassaris. But it's not actually what Viseris thinks. I mean, the same way that, like, I mean, we already kind of knew that by Alyssa being like, yeah, let's have fucking sex to my son, which I don't think the real Alyssa ever would have done. So, you know. Oh, my favorite darling boy. Perron off. What a place. What a wild place to spend a season.

Oh, man. I love this idea that you're putting out there that David is just going to be like anytime he sees a wear whatever again, he's going to be like, um. Can we consider relocating? Do you get any other materials on offer? I'm going to be, I'm going to get on my dragon and be on the other side of a mountain from that tree. Thank you so much. Oh, man. Wild stuff.

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Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, Joe, it's my pleasure to tell you. It's time to talk about Laris again.

Excellent. Hagan, who's going for a little stroll with a while, toppling over, shouting, I can't, I can't, oh God, eerily reminiscent of my correspondence to you ahead of every podcast this week. What would you like to say about this Larisian?

what we are seeing when he enters in terms of what he in Orwhile are discussing, seemingly in cahoots, in terms of how Laris is working to facilitate Agon's rehab? Anything else on your mind in this scene? Okay, yeah, they're locking the door. They're like, it's very much, don't let Ama know we're trying to get Aagon mobile again, a conspiracy between Orwell and Laris. Laris tells him That tells poor Agon

Who's screaming in pain Tom Glencarnie We our heart goes out to you He's like you'll learn Like you'll learn how to move your body He says quote now that you are as you are And this is the second conversation we've had Where Laris has been like

supportive encouraging blah blah But just reminding Agon like you are Like me You're like me now Like you're struggling and you're going to struggle. Your circumstances have changed. Which feels very like gaslight, gay keep girl boss, king of the egg, stuff from Laris here.

Very Kylo Ren, you're nothing but not to me. You know, that it's just sort of like building a dependency, not dependent, not on milk on the poppy, but dependent on his guy Laris for understanding and support. and a really accelerated rehab schedule. I mean, really accelerated. A while is like, he spent, our guy needs some rest. Lyrus has. Lyrus wants that foot in working order.

You know what I mean? Rina. The Vale. Jane Aaron. Your fave. This can be pretty quick. Rina, just like, you know, fuck. Jophe and Tirexes are staying at the Vale as they are supposed.

because Taraxis is definitely old enough to help defend the veil. And the blonde, the Aryan poster children and their eggs and naturally are headed off to the gay abandon. And Raina just scurries away as if no one will notice. And perhaps no one will notice. And this made me, this made me compare in my head. We've been comparing Renira running off during the hunt to Allison sort of running off to Camp in the Woods.

We'll talk about that, certainly, in the very next scene. But this reminded me, the Raina and Renera connection of, like, Rana's like, who cares? I'm the babysitter, who cares? No one, no one's here for me. No one will notice that I've got. I don't have a dragon. Nobody cares about me.

They care about those children because they've got eggs and dragons. They care about Jop because he's got a dragon, but who am I? Who cares? So off she goes into the wilderness. Will she murder a bore? Will she go for a bath? Will she see a white stag? Or will she claim a massive wild dragon?

Tune in next week. We don't know. Watch the space. It's definitely not the agreement that Raina and Raina made when Reneera said, I need you to be the mother to them that I cannot teach them, train them, guard them as a dragon guards her eggs. I don't know that running off in pursuit of scorch marks is guarding them as a Dragon guards her eggs.

But, you know, we make our own paths in this world. So that's what Raina is doing. Yeah. Weird look from Jane Aaron as she closes the gate. And just, you know, she meant it when she said she was going to just send, like, a few dudes from the mail. It's really just astonishing to see that party depart. Simply not enough people. Speaking of parties, departing into the woods.

Should you go camping with the queen? Yeah. So these are, once again, two separate scenes. There's the initial, like, I'm riding my horse, and then the later I'm going for a dip scene. We're going to talk about them together. So you just mentioned this, like, comp we've been making to Renera's. Jaunt also, of course, literally in this Kingswood in the third episode of season one.

No one's here for me riding off Kristen in pursuit. One woman feeling like she does not have a place. in the royal progression and plan heading off into the Kingswood with one sworn sword with one member of the Kingsguard looking for peace perhaps but also some sort of newfound purpose it is impossible for us not to think of Vernera while watching Allison here why do you think you've decided to call Rickard Thorne Rick the Dick?

I just think he's really handsome. Okay. Like I just I think he's really handsome. Mallory has written the phrase fingering entrails into our notes here. Yeah, thank you. You know, I don't know exactly what's going on there by the campfire.

I don't know what he's doing. It's weird. It's like he's working a rosary except it's end trails. He's just sort of like smooching them between his fingers. Yeah. You get like the rabbit or whatever game ready for dinner by the campfire, sure. But what were we doing with those entrails? That was disturbing.

Was he scrying? Like, I really feel like someone in the props to our bar, Martin was like, here's some entrails, go. And he's like, what does one do with entrails? Let's do it. Let's do it. Great question. Joe, yeah. Back in the season premiere, the series premiere, excuse me, when Reniro landed on Syracs and Allison was there waiting in the carriage, we heard Allison High Tower say this to kind of introduce us to her character. I believe I'm quite content as a spectator. Thank you. And many moments since then, including right now,

Alicent is confronting how untrue that is. And of course, right? This first scene, the riding in on the horse and Rickard asking, when do you mean to return to the city? And Allison's saying, I'm not yet certain I do. And then that second scene, a big bathtub, as we have taken to calling it after Talk to Thrones, where I, you know, it's not which stuff go, but I am pretty excited to say to you, Ophelia Bard stuff go. What's on your mind in both of these seeds? Priory Apholites go. So we should note what color is Allison saying wearing when she says,

I believe I'm quite content as a spectator. Thank you. She's wearing this sky blue, which we often saw her in before her rebranding into all green all the time. And she's wearing this beautiful, before she strips down into her multiple layers of white skivis to like go into the big bathtub. She's wearing this very, like the bluest green, I think we've seen her wear in a really long time in this beautiful velvet sort of cloak that she's wearing. A lot of people, including Chris Ryan here, is truly quick to point out this like clear Ophelia imagery here. A lot of people are pointing out this very famous Malay painting of Ophelia in the water surrounded by flowers in this white. dress, already dead painting.

I was actually looking at a bunch of waterhouse paintings from around the same time. This pre-Raphaelite, they loved, they loved hot, weird, evil, horny women in water. There was like a big time for that in the pre-Raphaelite movement. I had a book growing out, an art book growing up that was just titled From the Deep, and it was just like hot, horny, evil women in water. and I think it really shaped me as a person. Oh, man. How can it not?

But there's all, like, her wonderful thing was, she's, yeah, she's giving Ophelia in a major way. And, like, so on the inside of the episode, Condal and Olivia Cook both implied that Allison was, like, thinking about committing suicide. And, like, there isn't anything sort of character-wise that would have led me immediately there. But the visual Ophelia comps were so strong that, like, you know, if you, you know, if you, don't love reading Hamlet like Ophelia a woman who is a young woman who is broken by

all this tragedy that has happened around her including the death of her father so she feels all alone like absence of her brother, death of her father all alone in the castle goes down into a river and either falls in or probably throws herself into the river and kills herself

And so, like, so, yeah, this idea of Allison being so pushed by everything that's happened over the last couple weeks and this vision of this scar on her arm that she's just like, who needs me, where's a place for me? I would argue Allison, Helena still really, really could use you. She's not doing well, is what I would say. But yeah, this is what they say. they say Allison's disillusioned. She doesn't know that she has a place in the Red Keeper

if she did, whether she wants it. And I think at the beginning of it, we're sort of wondering, is Alison out here to end it all? Olivia Cook says, this mode of peace that could potentially be the last time for her. But then she sees this hawk flying overhead and according to Olivia Cook in interviews, like

she is re-galvanized with purpose. I confess I do not know what that purpose is, but I'm excited to find out. And where will it lead her? Intriguing. What would a hawk? mean to her? Does it look like a dragon? I don't know. Like, I don't know. I'm curious to find out. Anyway, that's Allison. Well, anyone ever say to Allison of hawks or birds of prey, your obsession with those beasts goes beyond the understanding? I wonder. Stay tuned. Yeah. Oh, man. I thought the score was absolutely gorgeous in the big bathtub sequence. It's very sad.

I mean, Olivia Cook, extrusiatingly beautiful woman. And so, like, just watching her wander around sad. in the woods. I genuinely could do it for much longer. It was great. So the mystery was solved when we watched the trailers for the season. We were like, what are these? Yeah, why is she by a lake? Water moments. What is this? You were wondering because

I mean, to take Lister's mind of the curtain, because I think we were talking about that in more in the spoiler section, like, you were even like, is Allison going to Harenhall? Because like, Harenhall is on the lake? And we were like, is this Allison? Like, and why would she be that? We don't know like what's going on? But no, she just she's out for a swim thinking of ending it all.

Taking the air in the Kingswood. Less air to take inside of Dragonstone, you know, Sierra outside. And Jace did take some earlier when he watched Renera and Adam fly back, but it didn't seem like it did his mood much good. And so he makes his way into the library to chat with his mom about Team Bastard and lets it rip right away. The lowborn claiming dragons. Was it her idea?

Lady Masaria? So before we get into all of Jace's personal insecurities and fears about being a bastard, what did this ping for you? Is this like jealousy that Reneira has brought Masaria into her confidence,

like a position that Jace believes he should occupy, like chief advisor, something else fueling this? Like what, this was like a very specific level of venom directed toward Missa. Yeah, I feel like, I feel like Jason needs to watch the seminal film Stepmom starring Susan Sarandon and Jolie Roberts and just sort of accelerate his. No. I had, there were a lot of people asking like, why wasn't there any follow-up between Masaria and Rainira in this week's episode from The Kiss last week?

And I would say, I would just go back and say, since Emma improvised it, I believe there probably wasn't written to the script. I mean, I'm sure we will get some sort of follow up on it eventually. But since it was an improvised kiss, it is not strange to me that there isn't, like, seen content about it this week or possibly even next week. Like, funny how we kissed that one time when I was quite sad and so were you. Yeah, Jace's lady Missour, I'm dripping with disdain. I do. I think it is more to do with he has tried. There's just been a couple times that he's like approached her been like, you and me, we're a team, right?

Team us. You know, the monarch in the air. here we go, but he made a big mistake last week unintentionally by saying like we need Damon. She's just like you know, he's as we pointed out like he said things, as you pointed out he said things about like, you know, his mother you know, was his monarch like he would not have it any other way.

All this sort of stuff is bid for like, I'm on your team. But also we need Damon and she's like, that's not the energy I'm looking for. Right. Yeah. Oh man. So Reneer kind of calls out his hypocrisy here. She said, you liked this plan well enough when it was Sir Stephan.

Also, this was your idea. And to Jace, of course, this is quite different. This is a progression outside of his idea into a territory that he is not comfortable occupying. These people are, he says. Roneira says, courageous. And he replies mongrels, which is extremely tough and brutal. and not the kind of thing that we expect to hear from our beloved diplomat,

Gisaris Thalarian. Yikes! It's a very rough moment from Jace. Yikes! We talked about this on Sunday, but like notably in Fire and Blood, this whole idea, including the bastard phase of it,

is presented as being Jases. So this is a update in our understanding of, consequential update in our understanding of what transpired. It was to them that Prince Gassaris turned at the urging of his fool, vowing that any man who could master a dragon would be granted lands and riches and dubbed a knight. His sons would be ennobled. His daughters went to lords. And he himself would have the honor of fighting beside the Prince of Dragonstone against the pretender, Egonne, the second Targaryen and his treasonous supporters. So this is quite a different presentation of Jesus State, but it is one that we

really are responding to powerfully and feel is quite in line with Jace's arc. And we sort of get this presentation of his concerns on both the micro and macro, the specific hyper-personal level and then the more blanket level. So let's start with maybe the macro first. What does it mean for House Targaryen question? House Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. He says, if any man may lay claim to it, what are we then? Now, Joe, this is an idea and question that we've been discussing now for a few weeks, right? The Maly's procession.

I don't know if you wanted to do your impression again. I thought the dragons was gods. I thought the dragons was gods. There we go. Any chance. I think you should rip that out. Not the last cockney hate crime I will commit on this episode. Okay.

So it kind of outlined that idea of Targaryan exceptionalism. They just meet. Do you think Hugh still thinks they're just meat now that it gets to ride one? I'm relieved after that comment that Hugh is out of Kingslanding and nowhere near. Maly's his head, genuinely relieved. Or any cute little dog we might see in the street. Genuinely relieved.

But like this is this is a question worth asking. Genuinely. We have notes for Jason the scene, certainly, but this is a question worth asking, right? Like, Reneiro said to Viseras

in the series premiere, everyone says Targaryas are closer to gods than to man, but they say that because of our dragons. Without them, we're just like everyone else. If everyone else also has dragons, you're also just like everyone else.

Yeah. Gargarians are just like us, except with more incest. I love that you're on incest watch here. I really love this. Well, I just think it's so funny because they're like, we have, guys, we have to. I'm like, something we want to fuck our sisters. It's just we have to keep our blood pure. We have to keep our hair blonde.

We have to keep our eyes purple. It's very important to us. The church has to give us an exception. And now we're like, oh, that was just a lie so that you could fucking marry your own sibling. Cool. Oh, man. You know, the seeds are still relatives, so there's that. But diluted.

True. That being said, I mean, we don't know Adams' heritage exactly, but, you know, the fact that Hugh and Olf are established is only, like, once removed from the core royal family is interesting. James is the one who said in the fifth episode that the histories of propaganda. He said when Reneira was like, a dragon will only accept a dragon lord to ride it or so say the history is, the delirian history is written to guilt us in glory. But opening this up to team bastards, or raised an army of bastards, it pokes at his fear in a way that changes his perspective. This can't just be about propaganda now. So you mentioned the silver hair?

Well, let's talk about dark hair. Steve, can we hear this exchange? And when you die? You are my heir. Did you think I would have dark hair? And you took Harwin strong into your bed. Did you think I might favor him or did it not cross your mind? Duceris.

I'm no fool, mother. The proof is here for all to see. Yet I may argue my legitimacy to succeed you because I have a dragon. And now you say you'll strip that from me too. Okay, Mongrels know we don't like it, but this is heart wrenching Joe. I love this. I mean, the Mongrels is so fucking tough, but also it's coming from like a place of self

hatred, right? Like this is, these are the things that have been said about him to him. And the fact that like, so we've seen

Jace grapple with the truth of his parentage, you know, throughout. Yes. This is the first we've seen of him

being like angry at Reneira about the position that it put him in. And it's just, Emma, in one of the interviews that I read,

I think it was the one with the rap was talking about how Rinear just like sees things it impulsively takes them. You know, I suppose you could say that about what happened with Masaria last week. But this idea, it's the first time, I've been so defensive of the Rainira Harwin relationship

because I was like, who is it actually hurting? And if all, if we lived in a utopia, it wasn't hurting anyone, right? These are two consenting adults, one have sex with each other, built a family together, they loved each other, they made an narration for Lainor to be happy. They were all blended, you know, modern. This is the future the liberals want family together. And I've heard people when people who are like, Reneira who are team green, not Chris,

but other people who are team green or, and our main argument I hear against Reneer is like, she had these children. And I'm like, so the fuck what, which is how I still feel about it. Yeah. But this is the first time that I really, really felt like her impulsivity and all of that really hurt these kids, you know,

at the end of the day. Like, Allison's a real villain or all the people who are making it an issue are the real villains here. But like, Reneer going for what she wanted. Right. Damn the consequences. Created a dangerous world for Jace, for Jop, for Luke. And like, I don't, I don't think it should matter.

if someone who's half strong is on the throne. But that is the world that these boys were born into, and because Reneer did not think everything through. And so I just really felt for Jason this. I just really, really did. I don't love the classism that's on display here, but all of it is coming from this, like, really, you know, this idea that he, which we talked about and talked to Thrones,

we've talked about before with Jason's, like the idea that he claimed a dragon is his, like, biggest justification that he should be allowed to be here, that he should be treated not as a mom girl. So the fact that he's trying to like shut the door and other people is disheartening, but it is very human and very realistic. And like the way the Reneer responds here, this was an interview with a rap from Emmett RC that I just really loved this answer about how Reneira is treating Jace in this scenario. Emma says, quote, Jace has every reason to feel deeply compromised by his mother's choice. Ultimately, she will choose

herself really above anyone. And here she chooses herself and her divine right over her son and her son's legitimacy. I don't think it's an easy decision. We've seen Reneira over years fight vehemently for the legitimacy of her children. We've seen her fight petitions. We've seen her stake all of her reputation protecting those boys. But in this case, she feels she's received divine permission. Jace says and Harry Collette plays it so beautifully in the episode. All these issues with how I love, are silenced by the fact that I'm a dragon writer, and you are willing to give that license that I own away. And he's right that she doesn't shut down his argument,

which I feel, and he's right, and she doesn't shut down his argument, which I feel is the only respect she can show him, right? So Renair knows he's right and is going to do it anyway. And it's a real test of our fondness for Renera. There's a lot of things in this episode that are a real test for our fondness of Renera, to say the least,

constantly been like, well, Alice is so cold towards her children. Reneer is so warm and loving towards her children. But like, Joff, who's their last kid who's at home, Bela is also there. But Bela and J. Sorry, Jason, Bela being the last kids at home here, like, you already remarked about her sending Bala off on, like, guard duty and like not really, you know, being exactly sort of motherly towards her. And then this idea that, like, I hear you, I'm going to do it anyway. You're right. I'm going to do it anyway. And it's like, you know, Rineira's warmth as a mother is not the only thing I've liked about her. There's a lot that I like about her. But it is something that I've really liked about her. And it's tough to see. It's really tough to see. Yeah. Yeah. I love this scene because there's so much like moral complexity of play for both of the characters. It's that like gray space. We love to inhabit where you can understand what is driving even the worst tendency. But also like you want them to, the characters to make a way.

different choice. You wish they were making a different choice. And like, you know, when Jase is saying, like, if one of your baseball boards silver hair and emphasizing silver haired, right, Dragon Rider decides he wants to rule the seven kingdoms, like did the conqueror's dream foretell that? And like, feeling this like threat to his birthright, it made me think so powerfully of one of my like genuinely favorite passages from fire and blood where we are just reminded in I think such a beautiful and like heart-wrenching way that this has hung over Jace from the moment he was born. Like, through as I think you're really right to call it, like, no fault of his own. This is just the thing he had to face from the second he existed and drew breath.

By royal decree, each of the Valarian boys was presented with a dragon's egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Reneira's sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch. But the birth and turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The hatchlings were named Vermax, Aerox, and Tyraxes. And Septus and Eustace tells us that his grace sat jace upon his knee atop the iron throne as he was holding court. and was heard to say, one day, this will be your seat, lad. And, like, we shit on Vassaris with his legacy a lot. And we, I think, are often right to do so.

But a moment like that that reminds you that Veseris was like, I love you and you're my grandson and none of the things that other people whisper about you matter. Like, this is going to be yours one day. It's just so beautiful. And then we think about, like, what did Jace hear from the people in his life who were closest to him as he was growing up? And we've talked about the moments in the sixth and seventh episodes of season one,

where he and Reneira briefly, like, where Harwin is an active conversation topic. And then I think now, after this conversation, we kind of have to, like, assume or at least wonder, have they never talked about it since? Like, that was like a, okay, only in private, don't let other people hear you, but we can talk about this, like, giant question and this, like, shame and this, this doubt and this pain, this grief that you're carrying. Or, like, when he said the, or when she said, like, the Valerians are akin and the Strongs are not, look at me, do you understand?

Was that shutting down this young boy's like pathway to broaching this giant thing with his own mother? Like that I found that very hard not to like wonder about too then. Part of that's true, but the other part is like the very real active danger. Yes, there's protection. Right. Every time you say this out loud, it's a risk. It's dangerous.

Absolutely. A couple of things about Rainier I want to note in this scene. When that passage that we heard, that exchange we heard, that exchange we heard, you know, heard when he says, and when you die, and she says, you are my air. It's just so frustrating to watch Reneira say that, knowing that that's what Vassar is. You know what I mean? Like, she knows how flimsy that is. She's living in how flimsy that is. And it's just like so tough for her. And then also to contrast these two scenes, to contrast it to earlier when they were talking about this dragon seed idea back when it was like, you know. And, and, you know, and

it's jace's idea to a certain degree and there's that warmth there's that like moment from harry collette that got memeify when he's just like smiling and holding his hands up and he's like well bastards i'm one come on and like when he says mongrel which is so tough to hear and when near it gives him this look like what what are you like who are you right you know who you are right why would you say that so just the sour mirror image of those who scenes. And again, like, Jace is just so pleased,

and Harry Collette did such a good job with that in that earlier, I'm your partner, I'm your heir, I have an idea, let's do our idea. And I was so sad, I completely understand, but I was so sad

that he didn't show up for the sewing, that Bail is there and Adam's there, but Jace isn't there. And especially when it was like Jase who like pulled her away when Stefan Darklin like, you know, caught him fire,

that was just a mommy son project burning someone together. That's something that they did together. And the fact that he's not there is so sad. Totally. Really sad. You just feel this yet another breach, another rift inside of a faction. Very sad. And like, yeah, my heart broke with like, then don't pursue it.

And she's just like, the gods though, can't gain say. That which the gods have laid before me. my son, you're in pain, you're asking this of me, and, like, this other thing matters more, just brutal. Very intense scene. Great scene. Montage time? I love a montage.

It's time to call the dragon seeds. We get to follow this message from Masaria to Alinda, and then we watch Alinda fucking go to work. I have to say, I was actually, like, alarmed when in the Ulf pub scene, they're just like, no, yeah, like, the queen's, like, personal handmaiden is here spreading the word. I'm like, I don't know that this many people should know that Alinda is responsible for this. That's alarming. But it was cool to watch her in action, passing along the whispers, sparking this recruitment. And we get that kind of like general snapshot of it before

we get then the specific calling of Wolf, calling a few. Would you, if you were, Linda, would your cloak of choice be bright red if you were constantly scoring upstairs and down back alleyways on secret missions? Oh, God. It's great. Another great note to pass along to our characters. Yeah, keep your murder slash montage cloaks black so that you blend in. She also has the Massey Sigil on her dress.

I don't know. I'm just like, this is something we learned from. Oh, man. We hoped we had learned from Laris and his agents last season, which is like, don't wear a sigil if you're going to do some crime. Great stuff. Great stuff. You know, this is the limit of all the characters just like wearing.

house sigils and colors like all the time though. Joe. Your guy, Ulf. Tom. Receive's word. Oh my God. They're headed into the boats at the hour of the bat. Take me through this scene.

And Ulf's response. All right. He's with his guys. Yeah. His bros. I'm so curious what their future relationship is going to be like. Like he's going to be like, is he going to find that he can't go home again? Like you can't go back to the pub now that you've got a dragon.

Or does he like draft a? them do they become his like new hangers on or something like that I don't know I want to believe that pubs are eternal for pubs and drinking mates are eternal like flew back or like over the pub and he's like look at my Lambo guys I'm living large

anyway before all that he has this great iconic well that's a shame because I'd be first in life if it wasn't for my injury because my leg hasn't been the same since and they cut him off incredible

it has killed me Incredible stuff from Ulf. Tom talked about all of this. It's really good. But, you know, they're like, let's go. You got to do this. You've been talking, you know, big game. As long as we've known, you've got to go.

You have to go also. Fuck Amid, right? Like, you want a little more stummy in your bowl? Go to Dragonstone. And then Alph says, I can't be sure it's all true. which was so good. In contrast to like Hugh knowing, Hugh knew his mom.

Again, I asked how about this he talked about it, to the extent that he could. There's an implication in the conversation that there's like things he knows that he can't talk about. But like, I just, I really loved all of this. We should just remind Lister's at home that Oof like previously threw away

in for Rainira, right? When we first met him in his very first, well, his second, you know, after he did like, what's what they do? Then he, that's my second, but not last cockney eight crime. Oh, my God. When he walked into the inn, right? And he's like, he's talking to this guy from Dorn and he says, quote, I'll go to the one true queen, Rainera Targaryen.

And he says, I'll tell you who else doesn't have silver hair, the rightful air to the Iron Throne my nephew, Prince Gassaris Valorian, right? So he, like, threw him with them, and then Egon walked in, and he's like, hailed to the king. Yeah. Tough stuff. Anyway, we'll hear, we'll hear more about Ulf from Tom himself. What do you want to say about about Hugh Hammer? Hugh Hammer, hard hue.

So, let's just build right off what you were just sharing about Ulf. And, okay, what previously stated, like, stance on the ruling parties do we have from Hugh? well, of course, in the first episode of this season, we saw him making the pitch to Agon in the throne room for coin because he was working as a Smith for Team Green and said, the Smiths are all proud to support

your grace against Reneer. In general, I think that accepting people who had said either and both of those things is like a very jeharis kind of thing for Reneer to do, right? Team of rivals. Yeah. You're just going to keep warring

if you don't build Bridges. My note remains, as we discussed many times on Sunday night. Any vetting of the 45 seeds? Any questions for any of them about what they believe or who they've aligned with or anything at all? No. On the boat on the way over, a quick Q&A. You know? Yeah, some forms to fill out for your eyes.

A little would you rather, you know, something to test the waters. We love it. Would you rather here at Casmar? So, Hugh, not drinking with his pals, home with cat. They're mourning their kid who died off screen. I'm sorry that I'm laughing. I am a monster. We spent a fair bit of time with this increasingly corpse-like dying child and then was just cast off between episodes, tough stuff there.

But it kind of, it does. Dave Gonzalez texted me about this and he was like, I feel like that child only existed because they were worried audiences wouldn't feel sad enough about just adults starving. he's like, which I feel like it's sad enough. And yes, that's like, wow. Dave coming through is always there with a sternly observation. It does make us think, though, like, would you have always felt moved to answer a call like this? You know, we hear him say, which we'll get to this quote momentarily, like, I, you know,

I wanted to make my way with my own hands. Or is it just simply a matter of the circumstance? There's no food. There's no money. My kid died and I couldn't save her. Like, I need something else that, you know, it heightens our question of, like, like what pushed you maybe to answer the call for the sewing. And he reveals his parentage to Kat and to us.

Here's what he says. I never knew my father. That much is true. But I did know my mother. I hid it from you and I'm sorry for that. She worked in a pleasure house. She was granted more freedom than most because of who she was. And because rich man paid more to fuck a woman with silver hair.

Normal way to talk about your mother. Yeah, Frones. She used to tell me I was no different. to her brother's boys, Vassaris N. Damon. This was literally of all the things that happened in this episode. This is the first thing we texted about it after we saw it. Like, holy fuck, is Hugh Hammer Sarah Targaryen's son? Joe.

I think the answer is yes. The actor confirmed it in an interview. So it is a yes. Okay, so let's tell everybody who Sarah Targaryen is. Sarah Targ is. So, Baylon, who is. is Vissarus and Damon's father. This is his sister, a sister also, too, their mother also.

Just stop me if you've heard of it before. Yeah, so this is Aunt Sarah. Vassarist and Damon's Aunt Sarah Targaryen. Defiant prankster is a fun way that you've described her in our notes here. Her very first word was no. Yeah, I think defiant, I think, is the word that I was bringing up when we were talking about her on Talk the Thrones. But she was disowned by Jeharis, much to Alessane's chagrin after a sex scandal, involving who?

A Beesbury. By the way. Yeah. A different Beesbury, but a Beesbury who was teaching the ladies how to fuck in King's Landing. Beehive. Yes, the beehive. There I go. She tried to steal a dragon to escape, sent to the first.

Faith fled to Esos, took up work at a pleasure house in Lees, opened her own pleasure house in Valantis, and fathered three bastards who pushed their claims of the Great Council of 101 AC. We want to read that bit in a second about those bastards, Sarah's boys, who showed up to the Great Council. But I did want to hit this email from our listener, Sam, that I really loved. Because, you know, to your point about, like, so Sarah is like slut shamed by her father. told she can't have a dragon, kicked out of the family, sent off to, like, a monastery, essentially, and then just, like, fucks off to be a sex worker and a madam for the rest of her life. And as those, um, so Sam wrote, it's truly poetic and masterful touch of adaptation for the bastard son of a disowned daughter to claim his grandfather's dragon. That kind of choice feels especially like something George would craft.

A daughter, quote unquote, dishonest herself, but is in turn treated with cruelty and a distinct act of mercy by her royal father, pushing her away from her family and the life she'd known, pushing her to siring a bastard, a bastard who grows up in a broken family, a bastard who tries his hand in an honest life, and is an especially cruel just of fate, loses a daughter of his own, and then that rage, that anguish, that sense of loneliness, reaches back generations to claim a symbol of power robbed from him. You can see all the wonderful ways this experience will shape his sense of self-worth and do. I loved that from Sam. But yeah, I mean, it's just chef's kiss, perfect.

This is so good. There are some differences with Sarah, which we can talk about what you want. But do you want to read this Fire and Blood passage about the Great Council? Sure, yeah. So the three bastards, Hugh, not one of the three in question here, but the three who came forward to make their claims. From Esos came three rival competitors, grandsons of King Jaharis through his daughter, Sarah, each sired by a different father. Sarah. One was said to be the very image of his grand sire in his youth.

Another, a bastard born to a triarch of old Valentus arrived with bags of gold and a dwarf elephant. Amazing how often elephants come up in the world of ice and fire. The lavish gifts he distributed amongst the poorer lords undoubtedly helped his claim. The elephant proved less useful. Princess Sarah herself was still alive and well in Valentus and only 34 years of age. her own claim was clearly superior to those of any of her bastard sons, but she did not choose to press it.

I have my own kingdom here, she said, when asked if she meant to return to Westeros. So that's just like a great little insight into how Sarah thinks and behaves, right? But also this idea for bastards were in the world. They made this push. That's like historical great counsel

canon record. And now we're like, oh, Hugh, another Sarah bastard who we didn't know about. What an incredible little touch. And I love that email from Sam and thinking of him claiming like his grand sire's dragon and just like a symbol of power rob from him. Yeah. Yeah. Ja Harris and Hugh.

And that gets back to everything we discussed at the top of like, what is a dragon seeking at a given moment in time? Like it's just, it's so rich. I really, really like this choice. I've seen people latch onto this line that you read. One was said to be the very image of his grandsire in his youth. Now again, we're talking about other boys. But if Sarah has a son in Hugh who is like the very, it's. know, we met Jeharris when he was, like, quite wispy and crusty in the great council scene.

But, like, we can imagine that in his youth, he looked much like Hugh Hammer. And so this idea that Vermethor is like, oh, I know you. You look familiar is fascinating to me. The hang up here is that you might have heard us, we said Lease, we said Valantis, blah, blah, like Sarah set up shop in Esos. There's no mention of Hugh. here talking about like I grew up in Esos and I came back or anything like that. So like that was the one thing that I was slightly hung up on when you and I were texting like, is this Sarah? Because I was like the way he describes it to Kat here. It's, you know, the implication to me is like I was born and

raised here in flea bottom. But I, you know, I guess that's me just sort of like, yeah. Anyway, point being, maybe they'll mention it later. But if they're going by book canon, he grew up in Esos and had to actively decide then. That's an interesting character choice. Similar to when we were talking about Adam and Alan growing up in the shadow of Driftmark, it is an active choice to leave Esos and come back to King's Landing and find his way into the throne room to be like petitioning Agon for money, hat in hand, this like his family member, you know what I mean? So this is like an active character decision that seems sort of in contrast to,

to this idea of like, I was determined to make something for myself. Would you choose then to go to King's Landing to make that life for yourself? Which is why, like, I kind of think that in show canon, the implication is like maybe Sarah set up shop a little closer to home. But... Like Harris would have had some notes on that. He certainly would have. He's an interesting little wrinkle.

He certainly would have. You mentioned Kat. Yeah. So, when part of his pitch to her is, we'll have a better life if I can claim a drive. You'll be a lady. And she says, I do not care to be a lady, Hugh. And neither do I want to be a widow. Another good line from Kat.

What is your read on that then? Because he decides to go. Like, we see him go. You and Chris felt like this was it for Kat and Hugh. And certainly, like, certainly I can understand that. Like, the guy who stands in front of the dragon and goes, come on. Like, that that guy, like, lost his daughter, lost his wife. Lost everything.

I'm ready to die if I need to. So I'm slightly inclined to agree with you guys. That's not how I read it when I first read it. It was just sort of like another thing. We got an interesting email from a listener, Chris, and I'm not going to read out. But Chris is talking about the inherent contradiction of Hugh Hammer, who's a guy who's sort of demeanor is, I will do anything for my family. But, you know, like I'll punch a guy out and steal a bag of groceries.

I'm just doing it because I want to provide for my family. But Kat keeps explicitly telling him what she wants. And he's like, No. Our neighbors are stealing from each other. How horrible. I don't like to go to Templeton, please. You know?

Cat. So, yeah. Also, when I watched them all walk down to the ships and then get on the ships and disembark from the ships, a dragonstone, I was reminded of the Grecian myth of Theseus, wherein nine-year intervals, seven Athenianian. boys and seven Athenian girls were sent to Crete to be devoured by the Minotar. Theeus makes it out, comes back, oops, forgets to change the sails on his boat and his grandfather commits suicide. But anyway, the point is, this idea of like, you know, a group of, you know,

sacrifices, essentially, you know, headed off somewhere. And this idea of someone of royal birth in among them, Theseus, in a mom. the, you know, the Athenian boys and girls who were sent off to be devoured by the Minotaur. So the Mintar, we got a dragon. But here we go. So the Sacride Point of me, we're about to talk about the red sewing, but Condal and inside the episcribed it as said, ritual. Ritual.

Ritual sacrifice. So that is a very, very fair comp. Chills. Quickly before we get to the Dragon Keepers quitting, this is a lot of people going to the boat and leaving. No whisper of this reaches Amen. So the question is, did nobody know this happened? Which would be astonishing, or is this another thing

that they chose not to pass a lot? Or are they withholding? Yeah. Our listener Jeremy wrote an email where he says, has the spider web become a neglected cobweb? And I think in that email, if it was either him, it was one of our other listeners, compared it to the march of people from Etteros to Helms Deep. Like, it was just like a long line of people.

people, you know, and it's just sort of like, yeah, and it's like, oh, man, how could none of Laris's agents gotten back to him on this? It seems impossible. Yeah. It feels like Laris knows something about what's going on here and is choosing to keep that information to himself. Yeah. Yeah. So almost hard to like with love and respect to Alinda Spicraft, I just do not think she, like, she's running all around town. Everywhere. There's no way Lairns didn't hear about this. He must know. It seems impossible that he wouldn't.

Dragon Keepers quitting. This was kind of a shocking scene because the dragonkeepers in the show were so different from the dragonkeepers in the book and have this much more like true believer monk-like aspect to their order. You want to run us through a little snapshot of how this order came to be in the canon and the differences between the presentation in the book and the show, and then, like, let's talk about what we hear from a dragonkeeper to Reneira. Yeah, I mean, so in the books, this is an order that is created, you know, by Jaharis,

who we keep bringing up, writer of Fermathor. And there's 77 of them at all times. Condal in his props podcast that I was listening to where he was talking about the dragonkeepers, He compared them to the Swiss guard. He's like, there's only ever 77 of them. If one dies, another one gets promoted in. But one in one out is sort of the dragonkeeper's idea. They did not have the budget in season one of House of the Dragon to come up with a whole other, you know, they were armoring gold cloaks and they were doing this on the other thing.

And they could not come up with like cool armor for all the dragonkeepers. So they decided to make them, condol decided on the show to make them more of like a monastic, almost religious sect. ran up by George. George is like, that sounds great. I love it. So like a bunch of the props stuff, this is why they were talking about

on the props podcast. A bunch of the props stuff they came up with, including like the like, the long sticks that they use or the like ovens that they used to transport the eggs. These were all things that they thought about in terms of like,

it's not in the book. So like how, what are all the trappings of this order? It was a great podcast interview with the props master on House of the Dragon. But, So it's really fundamentally changes. These aren't just like swords for hire.

Right. And the dragon keepers of old, they crop up in a song of ice and fire. Their armor crops up in a song of ice and fire a couple different times that like you see. It's sort of like the dragon skulls that are hanging around. That dragon keeper armor is sort of hanging around when we get to Tyrion's time in the Red Keep and stuff like that. But so instead of swords for hire, we're getting religious people with a tie to old Valeria who feel like they have more of a right of understanding of the dragons, which is, you know, this is their entire life that we see them like teaching and training the royal kids on how to

interact with the dragons. They speak Valerian. There's this idea. I can't remember if Cottle said this is something that he came up with. I think it was, that they have, that there's, there's an elder and an acolyte, essentially. There's always two. Rule of two. Rule of two of the dragonkeepers. And that the elder, when you become an elder, you give up speaking the common tongue entirely and you only speak in Valerian. The acolyte is bilingual. But like you, it's like a thing you give up, right?

Like you just decide you're only going to speak in Valeria now. So what this drag, this lead dragon keeper, who by the way, had to, you know, they watched one of their own. go up in flames and slit his own throat in last week's episode, right? Yep. He says to her in High Valerian, which I guess is all he speaks these days, that what she's doing is, quote, an abomination and that, quote, the judgment was delivered after Stefan. Quote, it was blasphony. He was no dragon lord, neither of these. And then Reneer says, and yet the gods have sent them before us.

And then he says, you have set them before yourself. The dragons are sacred. They are the last magic of Ovaliria in the sad world. They're not play things for the games of men. Our order will take no part in this. Dragon Keepers out. But this idea that, like, Reneer says, it's just what the goddesses have sent them before.

You have set them before yourself. Your chupress is out of control, lady. That was an amazing, amazing line, an amazing moment. an amazing and important challenge. Yeah. I think it's rich and interesting for the characters who are like kind of part of the reason

that we have to say like a dragon is not a slave to be like, they're not playing things for the games of men and they're still interrogating maybe of their own to do there. But that active challenge to Reneira's like, my mission has been ordained, a sense of righteousness here felt very important to hear.

And then like as we continue to talk about like signs and portents, tense and sides, like the dragon keepers walking out on you, not only is there like the practical aspect to like, you got to do this on your own now, that would, to some certainly be like a harbinger, undeniably. Put the brakes on. The weird old drag, the dragon cult doesn't want this. No breaks. Pedal to the metal. Gas time. Let's go. Renira addresses the seeds. And she moves to speak to the assembled and we hear the quote that opened the episode today, you know, saying like, here's the evolution of what I thought I knew about claiming a dragon.

And when she moves like further into the crowd, Sir Laurent like follows her right on her heels and she kind of looks him off. And we talked about this on Talk to Thrones. We've gotten some like, you know, further insights from Condole and co on their reading. on this. Huge insights, I think. Yeah. So are you still, are you still thinking of Damon as a comp in addition to? No, not anymore. I'm not. Why not all of the above? Oh my God. You were so right to challenge me on that comp as you did on Talk the Thrones, right? Because what Connell says is that this was like similar to the smooch with Masaria, that this was actually Emma's pitch for for Reneer to go and walk amongst the seeds as though a pastor amongst the

or flock in terms of religious cults. It's not at all troubling to hear. The comp you made was to DeNaris and Mesa, which I think is now, I think is a much better cop than Damon. But like, as we said, there's no vetting here, and it's just, it's a wild moment. We're going to talk about culty stuff soon when we talk about blood sacrifices. But like, yeah. She says, quote, our.

purpose is to end that hardships infecting the realm. The enemy will have no choice but to bend that they can end the suffering without bloodshed, God's willing. I just can't believe, like, there's no way Reneira thinks there is a single chance that Aman says. I think she, you added to the roster, here's the throne. I do not think Reneer believes that. So this all feels like, again, the kind of like

I think she thinks... The way that that manifestation of belief, like the walking into the crowd, I'm the chosen one, nothing can harm me. Right? Yeah. But like, a belief in an outcome here that does not feel possible.

And like... Without bloodshed. I really do believe... I'm not prepared to tilt Reneer and to full-on, like, Jones Town... Uh... Yet.

But like... You said she's handing out Kool-Aid. But I think that like... I think she believes that the war will ultimately be less bloody. And this is what Emma said in one of the interviews, right? So without bloodshed is a complete bullshit line. Less bloodshed is what Reneer genuinely believes. And that also the realm will change.

She is the promised one. So the realm will be better off and better protected if she's got her ass on the throne. Right. We've got to unite the realm so that we're ready for the great war and the great threat that awaits. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Reneer calls Vermethor.

This was chilling. Can we hear it? The dragon named Vermethore is the largest in the world after Vega. And perhaps the most fierce. is called the bronze fury. We'll go to him now. And may the gods bless you. Woo.

Ooh. Should we, you want to share some Vermithor quick facts with the bad babies before we talk about what unfolds here at the red sewing? Bronze Fury. How much did you enjoy the saliva just dripping from his teeth? I adored it. I loved everything about this. As we've mentioned already, this is Gerrits' dragon. Yeah.

that now belongs to his grandson, the son of his daughter who he disowned. Cool stuff. And as you mentioned, Vermethor was born from an egg to Jiharis, right? Right. So he's nearly 100 years old. Super old dragon.

But he uses a deterrent throughout Jehires' reign. We mentioned this on Top of Thrones, but we both love this scene from Fire and Blood where Jeharis is treating with a Bratheon. Lord, Rogar, right? And he's Vermithor is just snacking on a bowl, maybe multiple bowls, but at least one bowl.

And Jay Harris, it goes, quote, he grows larger every day, Jehires said, is he scratched the great worm under his jaw. Keep your nieces and your nephews, my lord. Why would I need hostages? I have your word that is all I require. But Grand

Master Benifer, shout out, Benefer, heard the words Jeharis did not speak. Quote, every man and maid and child in the stormlands is my hostage whilst I ride him. His grace said without actually saying, Robenefer, and Lord Rogar heard him plain. So good. I just, I love all of the glimpses we get of how Vermethor is presented to the kingdom,

either in like a specific, subtle show of power like that, or just the fact that the, like, the wage of Harris and Alessane always remind the realm that they have dragons. He and his queen meant to see the land they ruled, to learn its needs firsthand, to meet his lords and take their measure, to let themselves be seen by the small folk and to hear their griefs in turn,

but wherever they went, it would be with their dragons. This is just like, you can't tell the history of Jiharis and Alassain without Vermethor and Silver Wing. Like these two dragons entering the story, it's just massive. And of course, like, riderless

since Jehires' death. Silver Wing similarly riderless since Alicane. So since Alicane's death. So they'd only each had one prior writer, Hugh, and all for just the second riders for each of them. Vermethor comes into the screen show. It's so good. It's so good.

Emerging from the shadows. Like was this your favorite shot of the season so far? Yes. It was incredible. Like not just shot, I mean, I would say sequence. Because just like, again, the sound design, the score. something I've talked to Paula about before, which I think is so interesting,

is this idea of like when she designs the dragon noises, sometimes she has to battle for it to get the... Are we going to hear the music, or are we going to hear the noise of the dragon? This is a constant sort of like back and forth between the dragon noise and the score. And so the specific sound design choice is made here

are just incredible because we're hearing a lot of Vermethor. We'll get a really sick score moment later from Ramin Javadi. But like this is largely the noise of the dragon is the music of the scene. And it's so good. It's like a crank. Yes. Oh, God. Ratcheting up the fear and the tension.

Yeah. And Rhehramthor creeps into view out of the shadows. It's so good. And just sort of like comes above her. And so, like, so, like, everything to do with Vermithor, the saliva on the teeth, it could almost, like, smell him, like, just, like, incredible. And then Emma's performance against, uh, against, against, against, not a tennis ball to use those, like, blue dragonheads. But, like, you know what I mean? It's just, like, it's just astonishing.

And she says, Reneer says, be calm, vermouthor, or vermitor, be calm, serve, right? Yes. So this is what Emma says about the moment that Rainira touches Vermethor. Emma said to the rap, I think it borders on a kind of religious fanaticism. We see her become more and more wedded and ingratiated into her faith. She seeks the old gods, but which I think we also sort of mean dragons as a key to her own future. In a slightly frightening way, there's a religious fervor. Like she is the gods at her back in this decision.

And so like we, so this is what we mean when we say go back and rewatch that. Adam seen on the beach when she's like, and I'm, you did what I thought was impossible, and I'm glad of it, you know what I mean? And we're like, oh, that's so nice. But watching her here as she touches Vermethor, you're like, oh, no, you know, it's like, nod. Yeah, of like, this is right. Yeah, this is right.

This is right. This belongs to me. Absolutely chilling. Absolutely chilling. That shot then of Vermethor, like of Rainira right in front of Vermethor's face and the mirror to the poster from season one, young Reneer. with Syrax behind. Just unbelievably incredible.

She's such a dangerous mix of Damon's bold, daring due. We saw Damon sing to Vermethor last season, and Vassaris's belief in prophecy. It's such a dangerous combination inside of one person. Yes. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy, Vassar said? And Roneiro's kind of like, why not both? Why not both?

Right? Why not both? Why one or the other? Oh, man. The sewing of the seeds. Munkin names the triumphs and tragedies that ensued, crediting the notion to Gassaris himself, not mushroom. Others preferred the red sewing.

So let's watch, let's talk about this as we watch the sewing of the seeds become the red sewing. First up, Joe. Silver Dennis. Silver Dennis. And the Reneer says, I have nothing more to tell you. It must be the dragon who speaks. Bounces to go watch from the balcony. harrowing.

Tough. Really fucking tough. You called out on Talk to Thrones, like the guards moving. Yes. Into place. Again, it felt voluntary until you walk out on that. What do they keep calling in on the house? Gantry.

I guess that's the thing. They've said it multiple times. Like, new word for me. Cool. The gantry that they walk out on, you know, once you walk out there, you have agreed to something, whether or not you signed a release form. you've agreed to something, and the guards fallen behind them. The look on Rainer's face as this slaughter is playing out,

like this felt like the, we talk a lot about the worth the price moments in the show, like Otto talking about Aymann Klamy Vagar or Helena asking Amon, was it worth the price? And like this felt like Reneera's, is it worth the price moment? And we can see like running the calculus. this was not just a possible outcome. This was a probable one. She had seen Stefan Byrne.

And the fact that the plan works means that she was right to do it, right in terms of just the pure cold math of the outcome of trying to strengthen your side, right? Right. But she let dozens and dozens of seeds burn without hesitation. There was a hesitation about what I meant to use bastards, but not a hesitation about leading them to the slaughter.

I've heard some people. harrowing thing to confront. I've heard some people say, like, there's no way she could have known. She couldn't have known precisely how it all. But if, like, if you're like, oh my God, she never thought it would play out this way, then why would she set her guards at the back of the gantry? Again, the gantry, a word that I know and use often. But like, she set her guards there. Like, I don't know what else to tell you. She locked the doors. A lot of people have been like, oh, the red sewing, the red wedding. Like, what's the cop there or whatever? I mean, like, she locked the doors. on them the way that they lock the doors in the red wedding. I love this idea. This thing goes from something that we are cheering for

to something that we are horrified by so quickly. Yes. And that ritual sacrifice, like religious cult and ritual sacrifice, both being things that Connell says about this episode, really flavors our reading of this whole thing, right? And, like, again, so Emma to British GQ, in that moment, to asking about that moment that where Reneer is up on her little, like, viewing post, watching everyone.

And we'll see her again later when Hugh claims Vermethor. She's just there in the shot. It's wild. But she says to British GQ, quote, I think she feels like a god. I think she feels super proud. I mean, I think it's uncomfortable. I think there's something actually also that ties into the religiosity, even being back in proximity to dragons, to that fire. is to somehow be living her birthright

to be soaking up the divine somehow. Is this not the... So I ask you, Mallory, is this not the embodiment of I will take what is mine with fire and blood and this idea of ritual sacrifice like can I talk about blood sacrifices

in a song of ice and fire for a second? Okay, so in it to... We've been talking about blood sacrifices since the beginning of the season because we see it in the opening. tapestry of that's woven in the opening credits of the episodes. From Fire and Blood, quote, The Valerians were more than dragon lords.

They practiced blood magic and other dark arts as well, delving deep into the earth for the secrets best left buried and twisting the flesh of beasts and men to fashion monstrous and unnatural chimeras. For these sins, the god in Roth struck them down. So that's cool. That's what they did in old Valeria. Blood sacrifices, weird shape-shifting stuff. Really, really tough stuff.

That's a lot of royal targi blood that just went up in smoke inside the dragon mont. 43 dragon seeds just went up in the smoke. And so when you're thinking about royal blood and sacrifices, we got to think about your favorite scary lady and mine, Melisandra, right? We meet her in the show world, we meet her burning people on a beach, right? Melisandra has this fascination with King's Blood. She says, quote, only King's Blood can wake the stone dragon. So there's Gendry, who you mentioned on Talk of Thrones on Today, or Edric Storm, if you prefer, if you're a book reader. Mance Raider, Shireen.

Like, when she's talking about Stannis, she says he does have power. and fire cleanses. And Stannis is such a good, interesting, Reneer a comp here because, like, Stanis is a character, and I might be sick in the head to feel this way, but Stanis a character who I would still describe as a good man despite the fact that I watched him burn his own daughter. And it's because the Melisondra plot is so caught up in this, like,

religious fanaticism plus, like, feeding, meaning ego, meaning like, I should, I would be a good ruler. When Stannis shows up the wall and something, you know, you're sort of like, would Stannis be a good ruler? Perhaps he would? And it's just this like what Reneer, what we're getting from Reneer here is like a Stannis, Melisandra like combination. She is both the like leader, the like hypnotic religious leader and the like the monarch who has drunk the Kool-Aid, pouring and drinking the Kool-Aid at the same.

same time. And it's just like, I think that this idea of King's Blood is so interesting when we think about it in a Song of Ice and Fire because there's no proof. There's no proof of any of the stuff, but there's no like proof that King's Blood, like what makes King's Blood King's Blood? Like, Gendry or Shireen have Kingsblood than them because they're, you know, because they're Barathean-related, but Barathians are only very recently kings in Westeros, and they are dissidently related to the Targaryens, but it's like how thick does your M-count have to be in your blood to make it king's blood? So it becomes less about like the actual content of the blood

and more like power resides where men say it, believe it resides. Like if you say it's king's blood, then it becomes this potent, powerful thing. And so you think about this story that comes out of today, out of the red sewing, The legend of the very like Lisan Al-Gaib-esque like sort of legend of Reneer Targaryen locked 45 dragon seeds into the dragon mont, burned 43 of them and two of them claimed dragons. That's such a scary story. And she did it on purpose. And that's such a scary story for people to tell of her power of her, of her.

for claim. Also, while we're talking about blood and dragons, we have to talk about Mary, Mazur, of course. This idea of only death can pay for life and the death of Caldrogo and DeNaris's baby and Mary on the fire

are what helped in the ritual of, like, cracking those dragon eggs for DeNaris in the first place. And then I'll just say the word summer hall and just like call it a day because that's for our future. Show perhaps to do, but this idea, of like blood, royal blood, fire, dragons, and how all of this.

And it's what is so wild about this adaptation, what's so brilliant about it is like, this isn't really the tenor of the red sewing in the book at all. The tenor of the red sewing in the book is like a bunch of people showed up because Jayce promised them, you know, land and the life of a noble and all this or stuff like that. And they lined up one by one. And they like either claimed a dragon or they didn't. And a bunch of them got burned, but they all decided. whether or not they were going to do that.

Renier didn't like insourcele them into a cave and then lock the door on them. You know, it's just sort of like it's a much different. It's still upsetting. It's still called the red sewing. But like you've never got a sense at any point in that sequence in the book that those people couldn't leave if they didn't want to. You know what I mean? And that's and the one by one, and the one by one nature of it. You know, it's like, I'll try my hand at this.

I'll try my head at that, you know. Not let's just group you all into. a cave and see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. And again, just the way the like weight of, and then the propulsive, like, driving thrust of the, cannot gain say what the gods have laid before me part of it is just so palpable here in a way that is really new and frames and informs our read on what we're watching here.

Speaking of our read of, thank you for taking us to Bloodsacchac. That was a thrill. Loved every second of it, genuinely. it's very clear, I think, three and a half hours into the pod that we loved the Red Soie, we love the episode. I think we shared the sensation that the pros and cons of having spent time with Olf and Hugh, and Adam, you know, obviously that happens outside of the Red Soie, but it's like, we know more about these characters, sort of, than we would have if they had just, they're introduced to us at the sewing in the book. It's like, here you go.

So having spent more time with them before, knowing a little bit about their lives, being more invested in them than we would. be obviously definitionally, if we just met them here in the Dragon Mon. That's a gain and a win and a thing that we have benefited from. The tradeoff, I think, is something that a lot of people are feeling, which is like, it's hard to think heading into the sequence that there's going to be a different outcome other than the two characters we know standing on that... Gantry. What was the word? Gantry. I've watched every house in the Dragon's Build. I still can't remember it. Gantry. I'm going to come out of it. And of course, like, it's thrown. So Hugh, like a character who spent time with, certainly could die,

but we don't really have another candidate who, we don't have another candidate in that sequence who feels like a possibility to claim a dragon. You know, you said on Talk of Thrones, like we needed another seed to have spent time with the season so that we felt like there was yet another possible outcome. I think that's like a great call.

That's definitely there. However, we get to see you claim Vermethor. We get to see Silverwing claim all is how I would put that one. And the fact that these are so different and also so different then from how C-Smow claims Adam, like all of these circumstances feel so distinct and unique and really heightens that fantasy sense of the bond of what is calling the dragon and rider to each other. Hugh on the Hugh front, interesting that we do see him push this other seed out of the way, try to save her, spare her life, and then call Vermethor to him. Here, here I am, I'm ready.

Come on. and Vermethor responds. Come on. Respondes to that. Fascinating facial expression on Hugh Hammer's face after he claims Vermithor. Take me through your guy off, stumbling his way, not only into cracking a clutch of eggs, the protective casing around a clutch of eggs, disaster. But right into Silver Wing's naplair, Joe, and some Silver Wing quick facts, if you want to throw them our way as well.

Do you have a nap layer, Mallory? Currently, the entire abode is a napler, ideally. Silver Wing, born to Good Queen Alessane, 36 AC. She and Vermethor coiled together. Love this for them. Love that, coiling. She's been to the wall, but she would not fly beyond it. We've talked about that before.

Riderless, like Vermethore, riderless since Alessane's death in 100 AC. and she's very chill, relaxed lady. From Fire and Blood. Started with Silver Wing. We have a lot of notes for Renaira, but we are not, you know, ordained by the gods. So what do we know? No, we're not. Sad to say.

Fire and Blood, from Fire and Blood, quote, old silver wing, judged to be the most docile of the masterless dragons. So there you go. Again, I'll let Tom Bennett sort of speak more about, like, what the attraction between these two opposites are. But that was a sewing. We loved it. We thought it was incredible. I think the action of it was incredible. The fake oneer that they did sort of on the ground with all the dragon scenes writing around.

I thought was really cool. No notes. Genuinely no notes for this. And again, like the sequence in the book, because if we had gone by the book, it would have been like, Adam gets a call, Hugh gets a call, Ulf gets the call. And they all sort of line up and one by one sort of approach. and we see burned bodies like that. Like that is, the fact that they spread it over multiple episodes, the fact that we might not be done with dragon claiming in this season,

which again would be a book departure, but one more intrigued by. Like, yeah, they really thought it through, and I think they did such a great job with it. One person is less enthusiastic about the sewing than we are. It's Damon. It's one eye. Damon Targaryen. Back in Kings Landing, the small council is getting a little update on Ormond High Tower,

slow progress. The bees' allies causing trouble on two fronts, wonderful stuff. Absolute thrill to hear Ironrod say in happier tidings, Prince Darren's dragon, Tesarian, has at last taken wing. Your brother expects to join the fight soon when he does. The High Tower host will be unstoppable. We get to see Tessarian in the trailer, the scenes for the finale.

We both freaked the fuck out. Blue belly. And Copper wings. Copper wings on a blue belly. It can only be Tessarian. Incredible stuff. Thrilling. The meeting's interrupted by cries of Dragon inside.

now from the battlements where the folks manning big crossbow do not seem prepared. Ulf and Silverwing just out for a joy ride. Like, nobody was ready for this. There's that fascinating look between Laris and Ironrod in this moment where they're like, is it sea smoke? It's not. It's Silver Wing. It's Ulf.

Oll seems completely out of control. So I don't think we could believe that he like led Silver Wing deliberately there. But as you noted earlier, it's fun to think that he's like, I want to make sure my boys see this. Like, let's fly over. Can we please fly over Fleetbott? be great. And this is a part of this ritual of the bond is like the first flight, can you hang on? Let's cement this. So that was really fun to see. Obviously, we got to see it with Amon and

Vagar. Amon has to run downstairs, jump on his horse, ride to Vagar, Mount Vagar, talk about a portrait of isolation and being alone. Yeah. And fly after Silverwing. And then he does a thing that we are just simply not accustomed to seeing Aiman Targaryen do, and it's flea. No, Vigar, flea, Vigar, turn around. It was a shock and an incredibly dramatically compelling one to see Aymand have to

confront the fact that he's not ready for what is waiting for him on that hillside. At least he knows that. Syrac's, firmathor, Silver Wing. He knows what this means. New dragons, new riders, Renira has leveled up. The dragon map has changed. What a thrill. The face, Renera's face here?

Holy shit. Remind us a lot of the end of, yeah. Venom. Yeah. Covered in soot and smoke. Quick score, you know, or me Javadi quarter from our listener, Kenzie. Kenzie points out that Reneera's theme, which is technically called the Power Prophecy, plays here at the very, it's like the, uh, uh, uh, I did a bad job doing that. Thank you so much for listening.

Okay, anyway. Exactly what you were talking about. Thank you. Thank you. I think you did a great job. Kenzie says we haven't heard that theme since Young Renier in season one. I think we've heard like slight variations on it, but not as like prominently and potently as we do here. So I'll give Kenzie that.

But Kenzie's like this invokes young Reneira who was reckless, independent but effective. Young Reneer who marched back into camp covered in dirt and blood with the dead boar. This time she's covered in soot and ash victorious through her own recklessness and maybe a little high off the prophetic signs shown to her. So great stuff. Incredible final image. Loved hearing the dragons roar. Some great memes on Twitter. like what is the shit talking?

I know. We'll have to ask Paula what they're saying. Oh, man. I just want to say, I don't want to linger here too long, but something that Emma said in multiple interviews is this idea that like, Damon and Renera are only compatible when they both feel powerful. They don't know how to be like weak together. They only know how to be strong together.

She said, quote, their erotic energy, their sex is like all power. So my question to you is, in addition to. addition to what did you say trium, venom and all that sort of stuff is there also a bit of horniness for Rineer here

in this moment? I love this read. She's feeling herself and she's like, obviously I'm here for this. Where's my husband? Or where's Miseria? Either one.

Or where's Miseria? Yeah. I love this. Incredible. I think the only thing that can top that final note is your interview

with Tom Bennett anything that you want to tease here to set this up. Yeah. Right at the top of the interview you will hear me, I did talk to Paula

a little bit, R. Palo Paula, who does the dragon noises, about sort of Silver Wing and Vermethor. So he'll me refer to that. I use the phrase RP, which is received pronunciation, which is basically like a really upper class British accent. So when you hear that, think like Dave Maggie Smith, and that's

like what I'm talking about when I say RP. Also, I did say cranky at one point, and I do think that's my third cockney hate crime of the episode. And I do apologize to all South Londoners everywhere for saying that. Anyway, I was a little COVID-brained when I talked to Tom.

Tom's the best. I'm not at the top of my game because, again, I had COVID. You're always at the top of your game. Please enjoy Tom being absolutely delightful. Hey, Joe. How are you? I'm good. How good to see you? Yeah, nice to speak to you. Yeah, yeah.

How are you feeling? How's everything going? Oh, I can't quite believe we're here talking. I know. And we're talking because I'm in House of the Dragon. Like it's insane. I don't like that. You ride a dragon. You're a dragon rider.

And now I fly a dragon. And not just the dragon. I probably fly the prettiest dragon. You want to start there? You want to talk about your girl's silver wing? Oh, my girl's silver wing. And she's kind and she's loving and she's beautiful. And I'm very proud to walk out with her on my arm.

I love that. A friend of mine does the, the dragon noises on the show. Oh, I've heard about the dragon noise. Paula, yeah. And she was telling me that she thinks Silver Wing speaks with like an RP, like she is just an elegant lady.

Oh, I definitely, I love the fact that she thinks that because I think that, because I think that makes our relationship all the more ridiculous that I'm, I'm a flea bottom piece of shit. And she's, but, you know, opposites attract and sometimes

posh ladies fancy a bit of rough. I love this. Let's go back to the beginning. Tell me about when you first came in to audition, did you know you were auditioning to ride a dragon? No, no. I did not know.

Obviously, you know, HBO lock everything down and when you, even before you've done the self-tape, you have to sign NDA saying you're not going to say anything and that's fine. And then the scenes that they give you are heavily redacted. There are no names.

They're kind of out of context. So you just have the scenes. And I got the scenes and I read the scenes and I really like the scenes. And I thought, well, if it's only these two or three scenes, this is amazing. This is like, this is a nice, these are some nice scenes to do. But I had no idea really who I was. At that point, I hadn't read the book. And also it never says all for the white.

I think it said UW. So if you'd read the book, you could probably make sense of it, but I hadn't read the book at that point. And so you don't know what you're doing. You can only do what you're given. And it was actually, I mean, they don't tell you anything. It was only when I'd got the job. And I went into costume.

They said, oh, so we've mocked up a, you know, we've mocked up a little set for your drag. riding armor and I said excuse me dragon riding armor I don't know sorry I fly what I fly a dragon

yeah there's no one told you you fly a dragon oh no no one had told okay well let's let's hang on tight and see what happens so it's all it's all been like a magical journey for me and off so did you then read the book are you the type of person who wants yeah so I'm not I'm not saying the book

is thick, but I started the book before we started filming and I finished book after we'd finished filming. And that, you know, we were filming for five months. So it might be that I'm a slow reader, or it might be that George R.R. Martin writes thick books. You took your time, but did you do... I did my time. I wanted to ingest it all. Back when I was doing theater, I would do that, like, actor thing where you search the script for your name, did you search the book for your name and go, oh, there's not much here about, Alf, I get to create so much of him. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I don't tend to be someone that reads something just to find my bits, but I did, I started reading it. And I remember the first thing I thought was, there is,

obviously all the names are the same. Right. There's been, you know, two or three, king Viseris or Gusseris. There's so many of them. And I can remember reading about the death of one of the kings and then going, hold on. So that one wasn't even Paddy Konstadine. How long have I got to read this book before I get to anyone I've ever met on television before?

So that was an interesting, you know, if the book is this thick, we're doing this bit in the middle. Right. But it was genuinely. exciting when I got to the character's names I recognized and then heard about Ulf and he's you know he isn't fleshed out he's not a he's not a three-dimensional fleshed-out character because it isn't a traditional fiction book it's a it's a retelling or it's a historical it's historical book written by three different sources

yeah and so there isn't a character there he's not fleshed out and that's you know that's one of the most exciting things is that Ryan and Sarah and in part me get to you know put some flesh on Ulf's bones um this episode episode seven when we get to watch Ulf confronted by this story that he's told again and again again and that doubt that immediately sort of crosses your face what's the story you made up or that Ryan and Sarah made up about why all started telling this story in the first place and what percentage of him does think it's true

and what percentage of him doubt said. Ryan Ryan gave me a very useful piece of paper on my first day of shooting. Ryan's in the room with me so I can't tell you what was on that piece of paper. But it was a very, I was honored that Ryan gave, you know, he pulled it out,

of his own script and gave it to me and said, this, this could be useful to you today, just, you know, 30 seconds before I do the scene. And so that was, that was great. And I instantly absorbed that and took that and went, okay, that's, that's where it is. Ryan's telling me to shut up now. I shouldn't say anymore.

But it was, that, it's, it's, it's a story he has told. And it's a story he believes. and he believes his Targaryen. And if it gets him a free pint of ale in the cock-in every other week, then he will carry on telling that story. And if people want to mention his fucking hair, he will tell people he's not the only Targary and he doesn't have white fucking hair. And as far as being in a pub with a pint of Guinness, that's fine.

The temperature in the room changes, when his mates, who he's been telling this story to for 15, 20 years, go on then, fucking prove it. Go and get in a boat and go and meet a fucking dragon and see if you die. Then the panic sets in, then the doubt, the self-doubt creeps in. And it's like, well, was I, am I telling, is it true? Do I believe it?

Maybe I was lied to. Are my facts correct? I don't think my facts are correct. Maybe I shouldn't do it. No, I think I've got it right. Please don't put me in front of a dragon. And the temperature changes when you are forced to back up your bullshit. What makes him get in the boat?

Go stand in front of that dragon. Peer pressure. Bullying. Okay. His peers going, go on then. Do it. It's an epidemic. Pure pressure.

Do it. You fucking said it. Now can I improve it? But I, you know, ultimately, you know, all, you know, Ulf hasn't got a lot, like he doesn't have a lot. The people of Flea Bottom don't have a lot, and he's never had a lot. And so ultimately there is a chance to see if there is more to life than lying to merchants in the cocking. And Ulf isn't stupid.

Alph is, you know, is a self-serving instinctive creature. and if there's a chance to get something something I'm not you know it's not saying I'm going to get a dragon but if there's a chance to get in a boat and go to Dragonstone and meet princes and kings and queens I'm going to do that

and I'm going to see what I can get out of that I'm not saying I'm going to get a dragon but let's see where this let's see where this dark alleyway leads let's see where this sewer comes out you've been doing this for a long time your whole life essentially. 20 odd years man and boy. You've done plenty of things.

You're incredible. I've seen you in a ton of things. I don't think I've ever seen you doing something on the spectacular level of here's a massive dragon I have to act upon. No, I've never done anything on this scale. What was I like? Not just in terms of a CGI dragon. I've not done any real fantasy or sci-fi or anything that involves special effects.

You know, I'm a telly boy. I've done 20 years of telly from the lowest end, now the highest end. And, you know, I've done a few films, but they're not big budget films. You know, these are not chamber pieces, but they're small comedy films. And I've done good telly. so to be to be in a cavern

with 25 stump men burning to death and to walk the streets of Fleebotton to be in Kings Landing to see the Red King I was I was the biggest I would just take a golf buggy on my own

and drive around the sex when I wasn't meant to be there I was lucky enough my kids were off school and I got called in for a last minute costume fitting or rehearsal. And I said, that's fine, but there's no one to look after my kids. And so I was lucky enough to drive a golf buggy round Kings Landing with my children going, this is where daddy works.

Do you like it? And you get free lunch and you can pick whatever you want. How'd that go? How was that day for you? Joyous, absolutely joyous. Like, you know, when it's bring your children to, work day, not many children get to go to daddy's work and... And see men get set on fire.

Well, is that the day that you wound up on the House the Dragonville video that went with episode six? Were you just there in a pink polo and you're like, cry? Oh, yeah. So that was in Casares. And I wasn't meant to be on set that day. I came out of the hotel. They send you out a day earlier for you.

to acclimatise, which I didn't need. So I came out of the hotel. I found a coffee shop. I bought a flat white. I went for a wander, and I hit a security block. And luckily there weren't many Brits just randomly there. And I said, oh, I'm part of this. Is it all right if I go through?

It said, do you have a lanyard? And I didn't have a lanyard. But I used my Cockney charm. and I got to go on set and I got to walk around Kings Landing with, I think there were like 120 essays there. And it was the scene, yeah, it was the scene where an old man got his arm chopped off. And the great thing was nobody knew who I was because they're two different units. Right.

And anyone there that had met me before had only met me as Ulf. and so no one knew who this rando was in a polo shirt and a baseball cap kind of just hanging around with a flat white all day hanging around all day and the number i think i spoke to maybe four or five people and said hi uh how you doing and they went sorry who are you and i said oh it's me it's tom i'm i'm sorry i play all for the white and they were what are you doing so i got i no one no one really knew i was there

apart from dan who does the bt s stuff I wasn't meant to be there. Were you like trying to learn and absorb? No, I'm just a complete nerd and a fanboy and I love like I love being on set. I just love being around it. And this, you know, I love being around it, you know, on Channel 5 or BBC 2 or, you know, in doctors. You know, I just love being on set. So to have the chance to be on.

a house of the dragon's set. It's like I'm a 44-year-old father of three. There's no way I'm passing up the opportunity to be on this set and see Olivia Cook running away from 120 extras while an old man gets his arm chopped off. In this beautiful, you know, Ian Escu registered, listed town

with, you know, ginormous blue boards up everywhere so we can put the rest of it in in post. like it's magic. Like, who wouldn't want to do that? It's not, it doesn't feel like work to me. I was so delighted the second you showed up, not because, as you know, I'm like a fan of your work, but because I was so excited to hear a strong cockney accent

in The House of the Dragon because we don't have a lot of South Londoners in Westero's. What, like, when you found out that you could use, you're doing like an even stronger version of your head. Yeah. I kind of, I don't think I'm turning it. Because obviously, you know me, you know me as Sir James Martin. Right.

In which I do a very, very posh accent. But, you know, this is, I do have quite a thick South London accent. And it was, yeah, it's lovely that I, I don't have to do any acting. I don't have to do any accents. I can use my own voice. Because that's what all actors want to do really. Just use their own voice. Then I don't have to think about it.

everyone else is having to do RP and pretend to be lords and ladies and knights and queens and kings and I'm just I'm just this piece of shit from flea bottom and I get to use my own voice it's great but yeah we don't I think in season one you have to know who the Targaryans are and the Targaryens are royalty and so it's all received pronunciation and they are all playing high status and I think you know, obviously I'm really grateful that in season two we get to meet low-status people and we get to meet flea-bottom citizens because I think it makes a difference.

You get to see how these decisions affect the small folk. And so I think it's a really, I think it's a really great new avenue that, you know, Ryan and Sarah get to explore and hopefully I'm part of that. I love that. even before you get peer pressured onto the boat to Dragonstone, in episode six,

you're part of this larger conspiracy to sort of rile up the crowd. Ulf is sort of led into his role in that. Is Ulf only concerned about getting a little more, like, meat in his own stew bowl, or does he actually have a conscience when it comes to, like, the larger welfare of the small folk?

I could be wrong, but I think Ulf is, you know, he's kind of, he's quite a lovable rogue, but I think he's quite self-serving. Like, I think he's an instinctive animal, and he's a dog, and he does want more meat in his stew bowl. And I think he is, you know, he hears the whispers, and he hears the talk of people. that maybe he looks up to and respects and goes,

maybe there's something in this. What can I, what can I, what can I get out of this? And if I can shout, where's our meat in front of 80 people? Maybe, maybe I'll get some more meat. I don't think Ulf has, I don't think Ulf has the, the well-being of Flea Bottom front and centre. I think it's there, but it's not front, It's way behind his own self-serving needs.

I want to go back to your first entrance into the inn, where the camera follows you in, and it's like this very like, cheers, everyone knows your name moment for all. Can you talk about putting that together and just sort of what that scene, where we learn who he believes his father is a very specific kind of Targaryen,

what all that tells us. about who all of it is. He is very specific about his story and he's very specific about who he is and who his brothers are. You know my brothers, right? Right. That whole scene was incredible.

That was that, the, the tavern scene inside the cheers, everybody knows you, which I, you know, we all reference and go, that is who, you know, I play, I used to play on stage, a very famous character called Del Boy and only falls in a,

horses and it's that kind of thing it's it's the nag's head it's cheers everybody knows you're there you're a character and and you're and all this improv you know bullshit that i spout out to people what was that was my first day on set it was that was my first day on set and there's a hundred essays there's a hundred crew there's three cranes it was my first day so it's like other directors who were going to work with me were all there watching me Ryan was there and I've basically got a three-page monologue full of people's names who are all the same and and oh no there is a difference between because valerian is the house and valerian is the steel and high valerian is the and so you get to the end of three pages and then the dialogue code

comes over and says you're saying you're saying valerian it's valerian and also you're saying Versaris and it's Gisaris and Reneira and you're like oh god I can't do oh my god it's my first hey I'm really panicking now and I had to take I had to take myself off for a couple of minutes to stare at a corner of a wall and just have a word of myself and go no it's okay use all 20 years of your experience not to shit yourself and carry on doing it

and the reason I was in Caceres was for one shot of me walking into the tavern and I thought why have they flown me to Spain for the best part of a week to walk into a door. Then I realized this whole street had been, you know, dressed. And again, there's a hundred essays there. And there's a steady cam operator coming off a dolly down a slope, following me, checking out the girl, going through the door,

seamlessly cut to me walking into the tavern at Leaveston at Warner Brothers. And so it's this brilliant, you know, the opening of good. Goodfellers walking into, you know, it's a brilliant single. With two, used on two separate occasions to make this, I, all of it, all of it, I couldn't quite believe. But, you know, it's, it was a joy. It was a joy to do it. Excellent. Well, I'm so happy for you.

I was like screaming. Oh, not as happy as I am. I'm as happy as I am. And my children and my wife. Thanks so much for the time. Oh, you're welcome. Nice to finally meet you properly. What a fantastic chat with Ulf himself.

Tom Bennett. Enchanting. Enchanting is the word, yeah. It is time now for a quick little book look ahead. If you don't want to hear this, this is the moment where you leave us. We'll see you on Sunday night right after the finale for Talk to Thrones. If you want to hear us do a little book, look ahead.

Stay. Joanna, Laris, what couldn't you say earlier that you want to say here about Laris, certainly preparing Egon to escape? I mean, they're going to get the fuck out of Dodge by next week's episode. So this is why our training had to be accelerated. If, as we believe, Renira and co are taking Kings landing in the finale, Laris is the one who smuggles Egon out of the castle and out of the city. it would be helpful if Agon was a bit more mobile when they do that.

Yeah, I'm going to need Agon if he's going to escape to not be screaming. Oh, God, that's the entire time. Okay, I know you haven't seen... We're like going to give away their position. I know you haven't seen a quiet place day one because you don't like horror movies. No, but I did ask multiple people if the cat was okay. Right. But there's this whole part where they're like running with the cat and trying to get the cat to be quiet.

So there's this TikTok trend right now. A bunch of people are like, okay, here's me and here's my catmintz. and we're going to do a test to see if we would survive on a quiet place, and they're like run around their houses with their cats, and all their cats are like yelling because there's no way you can keep a cat quiet. Anyway, I just imagine. So Laris says to do the place test with Agon. Yeah, with Agon, exactly.

Fantastic stuff. On the idea of bastards and trust, I was like, I feel like in most, and there are a lot of things that, like, I'm sort of, the dread builds, you know what's coming, you're getting sad about things that await. I found myself like preemptively so just riddled with despair thinking about how everybody is going to assume that Adam is a traitor because of what happens with Hugh and Ulf. Now how will all of that go on the show? We have no idea. But I was just like thinking about that word loyal.

It's just like, honestly made me want to cry. Alex, yeah. It's so heart-wrenching. Adam dies is thought to be a traitor. and Alan survives and puts the word loyal on Adams' gravestone. Yeah. Of loyalty. Also, Clinton Liberty posted a photo with the wherewood tree that you and I both were like,

this feels illegal that he posted this. It seems like per the trailer, he's going to Heron Hall with Rainier. It's Syrac and Sea Smoker flying to Heron Hall. But in the book, we should say Adam goes to the Isle of Face. Adam's like the only person we know who goes to Isle of Faces. So like for him to pose the wherewood tree, I was like, oh my God, what are we doing here? Anyway, I got stressed out on his behalf. Now we need to go back and look and see if George's face.

It's George. It's got to be George. Would Jace, given his tetchiness in this episode, would he object to Alan and Adam being legitimized? And is that something we even have time for in the finale? It feels like we don't have time for Corliss to be like, while I have you, Ranier. I think we only have time for, because we see both Alan and Adam in their armor in the trailer. So I think we only have time for Alan to like be part. I think they're going to do the taking in Kings Landing is going to be partially a, you know, a sea battle.

So Alan will get to sort of like prove his medal at sea with Corliss and maybe we'll save the like naming him air for a season three idea. It's just odd that they've like. That feels like season. It feels odd that they pushed it in like every single episode this season and then there's going to be like. like a season three sort of moment. It should have been 10 episodes. Eight really should have been. Boy, they're all long episodes, but eight is just, it's tight.

This is the episode where we saw where all the budget went where they couldn't make 10 episodes. They poured it into all of this. Yeah. It looked incredible. Speaking of ships, the gay abandon and the gullet and how this is obviously looming over. We're still thinking early season three. You mentioned like in the book reader section a week or two ago.

your budding theory that, okay, if like Raina pieces out and scyves off and isn't with the kids, that will just obviously have a bearing on what's to come. I definitely think that's right. And like, if Rainer, if Raina claims a sheepstealer and something terrible befalls the boys on the gay abandon while Raina's not there, that maybe Renera will blame her in part for that. and that that is part of what funnels Raina then into the Nettles plot of like, okay, well,

I can't be here. I can't be with, I got to get out of town. I got to be with my dad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, credit to a Redditor who is the one who like put that whole thing together. Just like this, I'm sorry, I don't have their name right in front of me,

but like, yeah, someone really just wrote this incredibly convincing argument about how Raina, not failing to go on do a duty, failing to do her duty with the, Aryan poster children on the gay abandoned will be You know Mistrusted by an increasingly

Unhinged Rainer I hope here in the book section I hope I can say I wouldn't put our like foot too much on the gas of like things are going to get Real scary real fast with Reneira But like they were saying it in all the interviews so like you know I think even before the interviews it's like it was On Talk to Thrones we talked about it a lot it was impossible to watch the episode and not be alarmed by what we were seeing from Renira.

That doesn't, I think, I mean, I don't know how we can discuss the episode without. I just feel like some people are going to watch this episode and just be like, yay, a win for Reneer a character I like, which is like. That's part of it too. I mean, what all this means. That goes to a point that I wanted to make in here, which is just like, this is such a more satisfying journey to like, quote unquote, mad queen Reneer, which is not really how I choose to view her. but like versus DeNaris.

Emma said in one of their interviews, they were like, I'm resistant to DeNaris, like, Comst between Rainer and DeNaris, and I think that that's right. But I do think in terms of like a character's journey from sympathetic hero,

like watching her walk around talking about like, no bloodshed, blah, blah, just did remind me a lot of DeNaris talking about like, you know, breaking the wheel and like, freeing the people and something like that. And so if we had had even more of this seated into DeNaris's early journey on Game of Thrones, I think that whole Bell's moment

would have worked a lot better for us. And I think too, like we've obviously talked about this previously, but you know, in the book, like we have a lot of like paranoia and mistrust that mounts. We've got like, you know, tax policies and the fostering of resentment among the small folk and everything like that. Like I'm sure that will all be a part of this too. But, The, like, Agon stream is not in the book. So, like, all of this, all of the, like, heightening of the, you know, my ordained mission and I'm the prince that was promised, like, that's all show stuff. I think, like, the fact that they're heightening that and making that a very active part of how we are tracking Renier's progression just feels like what they want us to be thinking about this point. Allison, we see in the scenes for the finale that Allison is with the kiddos back at the Red Keep.

And so it is time to, I guess, retire this theory, but I just want to let everybody know that we shared a delightful brief text exchange. We're like, Allison, off with Sir Rickard. Is Allison the new Maylor? Like, what? We loved it. I love that theory. With Allison. But this is where I want to read this email from my listener, Sam, who we quoted earlier in the episode.

Sam wrote, I'm scared for Helena. I'm scared for what Allison might be forced to do to defend her daughter. In her interview for time with Olivia Ann Cleary, Olivia Cook described the finale in three words as, quote, a sacrifice made. I think the Occam's razor assumption is that she somehow participates in the taking of King's Landing by the blacks, either by outright betraying Amon or at least sending him away on false pretence to Heron Hall, though it seems where the trailers like Rainier and Adam are going to swoop Damon. Amon pursues, gets there after they've left to be alone with Allison, question mark. question mark. Maybe Aiman believes he'll be riding to the Riverlands with Helena by his side, but her mother prevents her from going thereby functionally giving up the city. A sacrifice made.

Because the thing in the trailer is Avent's like, Helena, you're going to have to ride Dreamfire. Helena's like, please leave me alone with my bugs. And Allison is very much, seems like, defensive of Helena in that exchange. This is a fascinating email because I am interested. One of the questions I had was like, if Aeman sees that Reneera has dragon mathed up. How does he justify going to Harrodhal and leaving Kings Landing undefended? Is that not tantamount to handing over the throne? So this is interesting.

Yeah. I'm really curious to see how they handle that. To me, it seems like there's a shot of Amon on a hill, on Vagar, looking at a taken, Kingsland. Kings Landing's burning, right? Stay tuned for our frame-by-frame break-end down on the trailer on trial-by content. I have not done all that work yet. But that was on first glance is what it looks like to me.

I also think it's interesting in terms of the gold cloaks, whether or not the gold cloaks help with the taking of King's landing. We have so much evidence of Masaria's ability to get the gold cloaks to help them do whatever Masario wants the gold cloaks to help them to do. So, yeah. Last thing, I guess, is King Hugh? you know if Cat is in fact

leaving him and going to her family her brother in Tumbledon then that gives us I think more fodder to assume that maybe like finding her again reuniting with her in some way as part of what leads to his switch but also just like the Sarah parentage it gives you more fodder to make his push to rule

so that felt just like a hugely notable chip to give him completely. Our listener Mike wrote an email, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but he compared the look, and then I rewatched it, and I really agree,

compared the look that Hugh gives to Vermethor, to the look Asildur gives to Elrond and Mount Doom when a Sildur succumbs to the ring and refuses to cast it into the fire. This very, like, scary eye, like, no, it's mine now, you know?

And like the dragons, the dragons, as we talked about, Harren Hall as like this sort of comp for a horrocks or the one ring or whatever. But like a dragon as the one ring and what can it do to you to have one? So excited to find out. If you want to hear more book reader look ahead stuff, I just will say that Dave and Neil and I will be breaking it all down on trial by content this week. It will be a particularly, I think, lengthy, juicy one. I will not have seen the episode so I get to like freely speculate with David Neal about sort of what's coming.

Lemon. So, yeah. Can't wait. Cann't wait for that. All right, we did it. We talked about the red sewing. We have dishonored ourselves in the crown with our comportment here. But we did our best. Thank you to our small council, Steve Allman and John Richter for producing this episode, Arjuna Ramgo Powell for his additional production work on this episode and Joomi Adan for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to Tom Bennett for joining the pod.

Thank you to Preston for being with us every step of the way. And Joe for just the like a little Easter egg of moving Preston, perched perch throughout the pod, wonderful stuff. We'll see you as soon as we can for our Deadpool and Wolverine pod, TBD timing there, but it'll happen eventually. And we will see you live on Sunday night,

ringerverse YouTube channel for Talk the Thrones after the Hot D finale. Until then, truly glorious. Well done.