'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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00:25See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms.This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more.Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones.We are here to break down the red sewing.Episode 7 of the second season of House of the Dragon.
01:27I'm Chris Ryan.I am joined by Ringer, senior staff writer Joanna Robinson,and Agon's occupational therapist playing her flu game.It's Valerie Rubin.I think I might be Agonne in this situation.I think you might be.Whaling and moaning and attempting.Oh, boy.
01:47Great question.Guys, we are coming to our viewers.We are virtual this week.The novel coronavirus struck down the house of our...The house of the watch, still strong.Don't know what that means, you know?We're just out here.We're enjoying public events, but not you guys.
02:04I'm really sorry that you are under the weather.But thank you so much for doing the show.I'm sure all of our viewers and listeners,appreciate your commitment to George R.A. Martin.Thank you to the whole team for like setting us up with camera.at home and everything that's going into making it so that we can do this,just not on our super cool set that we've got to do it all season.Yes.
02:27And, you know, like Oscar, Tully said, hope to begin well and go on from there.You know, we'll see.We're really going to try.We're really going to try.So a little bit of a different format since we're not in person this week.We're just going to go through the episode that you just watched scene by scene.So hopefully that,is enjoyable for everybody.
02:49I think it's a fun exercise for us.Usually we have like these sort of big picture conversations.We have my recap.But this time around we thought,given the amount of dragons,we saw everything that happenedand in the circumstances in which we were recording,we were just going to go back
03:01through the episode of the Red Sowing scene by scene.My guy, David Hancock,is back behind the computer on final draft,dialing up the script for this one.I was very happy to see his name in the credits.Joe, why don't we start with you?obviously what would be the biggestheadline from this episode?
03:22I think from the start where we seeAdam on the beach with Seasmoke to theend where we see Ulf, you know,flying like a maniac over Kings Landing.This is that like getting a scent thatGwain Heightower was talking about early in the seasonabout Kristen Cole. But here we go. We've gotthree new dragon riders. And it's this idea
03:41that we brought up last week a bit. We were talking aboutAdam Seas Smoke of like, what does that do? The Targarylegacy.Jase is really,this is his favorite new topic.What are we doingthe Targaryen legacyif Ulf the White
03:54can ride a dragon over Kings Landing,you know?Right, right.Now, were you alsokind of feeling that likeall the questionsthat these dragons asked,not literally,
04:04but like their presence asked?I was also feelingthe questions that the dragonsliterally asked.I felt that Verbathorwas speaking directly to meas I knew I wouldwhen he,
04:15the Broad's Fury,arrived at last. Yeah, thesewing of the seeds. This isone of my most anticipatedevents from fireand blood rendered on the screen at last,separating the atom andsee smoke claiming so that we got
04:30that last week. And thatallowed for the idea,right, the light bulb that would then create yetanother fracture. We've been tracking thesefractures and rifts inside of the teams.Is this what we want to do? Do wewant to cast this wide net? Do wewant to make it team bastards?
04:46I thought it was like a smart structure for this backstretch of the seasonand it didn't ultimately like diminish the theatrical scale and scopeof what we got in this episode with Verbathor and Silver Wing,which I thought was awesome.I really can't wait to talk about it.Okay, let's get into the first scene here.Obviously, it's a big one because last episode ended,I guess with a little bit of a cliffhanger,
05:10although that cliffhanger was mended by the scenes from next weekof whether or not it was in fact Adamwho was going to be on Sea Smoke.We find out that it is.Reneer goes to meet him on the beach.And I think initially she's got a lot ofhesitation aboutlike who is this guy?
05:28What are his intentions?Does he intend to serve meor is he now just like a luckydragon rider independent free agent?Joe, what did you make of their scene together?I thought Emma particularly was really good in this scene.Yeah, the tensionin there, the way that the dragons are talking
05:46to each other, or talking atthe various humansthere, the framing of itwere on an actual beach somewhere, like I thought it lookedincredible. Dragonin full daylight on a setting that lookssuper, like, incredibly natural.I just thought was really amazing.
06:02I do. I think Emma's tensionand then whenReneer has that flip right at the endand says, you've done something I fear it impossibleand I am glad of it. And there'slike this warmth.in her, in that character, I just, I thought that was extraordinary.I thought Clinton Liberty is doing such a great job with Adam, like, so background all season
06:24and then just, like, has turned himself into a little social media star, and I love that for him.And then, like, you know, I'm just, like, really invested in, in Adam's story right now.I thought it was fascinating that he doesn't out Corliss.He had every opportunity to, and he doesn't.And that's really interesting to meBecause of the two of them, Alan and Adam,he seems to have the most resentment towards CorleySo what has been sort of, you know, beat into him
06:56by either his mom or Corlis himself or whateverthat he's like so scared even now,even as he's taken to Dragonstone,he gets a really nice new fit by the end of the episodeand even so he's keeping his parentage a secret.Like, that's a really fascinating aspect to me.Mal, I was really struck with, by the end of this episode,we are zigging and zagging a little bit around here.
07:21But I wanted to ask you, you know,did you see a consistent trait between Adam, Hugh, and Ulf?Because I was trying to figure one out.Like, what is it that the dragons basically are recognizing in these guys?And is it there sometimes, like, self-aggrandizing in the case of Ulf?But, you know, is it consistent?across the three of them, they all want to be part of something bigger than they are?Well, I think that one of the passages we've cited and quoted the most is that like, you know,
07:53the caprice of dragons who can know the mind of such a beast. And so I'd say that the like blanketcontext and understanding we have is that there is something inexplicable and particular. And like,you can call it blood or magic or blood magic or any number of other things.is Seasmoke, we talked about this a little bit last week,sensing that Adam, his new writer, has the same father, Corliss, as his prior writer, Lainor.Is he responding to the fact that Adam is a character,since we met him at the beginning of the season in the second episode,he's like talking to Alan about how Alan isn't seizing opportunity, right?
08:30Another opportunity to distinguish yourself, right?If I had such a chance, I would leap at it.We heard them say similar things last episode, right?He so belittle your great opportunity.Maybe he is responding to that.boldness. Maybe Vermethor is responding to the boldness of Hugh calling out to him and saying,come on. I mean, Ulf is like boasting all his life. And then in the moment of coming to account,he's like, my leg, though, the injury never really healed. Otherwise, I'd be happy to be there.
09:01And when he gets knocked over the edge down to the dragon mind, he's just like scurries his way intostomping on a clutch of eggs. You know, so I think it's like, it's impossible to say,that's part of what's interesting about it. That's part of the mystery.You know, from Reneira to Corlis,Jace Masaria, characters across the entire episodeare really interrogating the question of how in terms of the blood?Like, Renair is asking Adam, do you have Targaryen blood anywhere in your family?And I was also struck by what Joe noted, like,
09:30it was interesting to be that he didn't say,Corliss is my father. That wouldn't answer the Targaryen part.But the fact that he's just like, we're not the sort of family that keeps animals,you know? And then Coralus going toto Allen later and saying,this is like, as far as we can understand it,the closest he's ever come to acknowledging directly to him,I am your father. He's like,
09:48I didn't really know much about your mother's backstory.Any shit? There's some dragon lord blood there.You know? So they're on this samefact-finding mission. Butthe other thing about Adam that I thinkwas really striking here, and this is more of a linkto Renira than to the other two riders.But it comes to mind when you ask that question, Chris,
10:07is that his response when Renera was like,what's going on here? What do you want? How did this happen?He said, if the gods call me to greater things, who am I to refuse them?And this, that evolution that you're citing in Renira across this scene and that question we had of how wouldReneer respond, we move quickly, and I want to talk about this as we hit other Reneer scenes laterwhere Reneer will actually voice this.We move quickly from what the fuck into acceptance into my mission is ordained by the gods.And that is a dangerous place to find a character.
10:38So I'm so glad you brought that up.I loved it.had mental screenshots of Reneer's facewhen she finally recognizes Adam not as a threat,but as an ally or as a subject at the end of this first beach scene.And she has like this kind of beatific,like, maybe things are going to be all right after all.And then the last shot is Reneira with ash smudged on her face
11:02looking like she's ready to kill people.Finally.Now, I don't, I'm not advocating for that,but this transformation that she goes throughthe sacrifice ofdozens of small folkwho she's brought in, recruitedand is just essentially like,
11:16you guys are cannon fodderand if one of you rises to the top,that's great for me.Otherwise, I don't really care.There's no hoses here for you.You know, we're not,there's no fire extinguisher.There's no mercy.
11:27You guys can either become legends or die.And, yeah.Her face at the end of this episodeis definitely like,she's different than she isin the beginning of the episode.And it's similar to the facewe saw her,
11:40close out season one with.That was the like, Rainer is about tofuck some shit up face and then they're likein seven episodes.Like, we got some stuff to do and thenwe'll get there. But I thinkI lovewhat Mallory, what you both are underlining this idea
11:56of like, Renairneeds justification for whatshe's doing, right? For the blood that's onher hands. And shehas searched for it in prophecy.She has searched for it inadvice from other people. What shoulddo, give me counsel, what should I do?
12:12And now she's got it in this nebulous idea that the gods are approving of her mission.And that, to Mallory's point about the danger of that, that you can shape into anything youwant to shape it.Anything can be a sign or a portend if you want it to be.And so it's just like, it's a really fascinating place for her to be in.I think it's interesting that you're looking for a link between Hugh and Ulf and Adam asdragon writers.and I think actually
12:40what's interesting about the various Targaryen dragon writersand these dragon writers is likethey're all of different personalitiesand the dragons are attracted to different aspectsin their personalities, obviously.And what's so fascinating about a dragon like Seas Smokeor Vermethore or Silver Wing is they've all had previous ridersthey might be attracted to a completely different
13:02kind of personality.It's not like they always go after someone who's bellicoseor they always go after someone who is peacefulor something like that,because you can have a dragon like Belaire in the Black Dread,have Egon the Conqueror as a writer,and then also King Viseras,who doesn't even really want to ride a dragon.
13:20You know, so it's like, it's like you're meeting the dragonwhere they are in their time of life.And I had a little chat with our friend,Paula Fairfield, who does the dragon noisesabout, you know, Verma Thor and Silver Wing.And she was like, oh, I envision,So whenever Paula talks about the dragons,she wants to make it really clear that she's not speaking
13:40like necessarily officially what the showrunners think.This is what she thinks when she makes herinteresting little dragon sounds at home.And that sounds belittling.Paula's a master of what she does.But she called Silver Wing this like grand damn,this like, you know, this older lady,this woman who has like been through stuff.
13:58And then we do have, I just want to give a tiny preview.We have an interview with Tom Bennett who plays Ulf on House of Art next week.And, you know, he's like with his natural cockney accent, he's like, oh, yeah, she likes a bit of rough.Like, you know what I mean?He's just sort of like, she's this grand old lady.And here's this bumbling cockney, you know, charming guy who has stumbled into her cave.And she's like, you know, it's Dame Maggie Smith and whoever on her back.And she's just like, let's go.
14:26You know, I'm going to have the time of my life.And that's a very different writer than who she had before.And that's just an interesting thing about dragons, you know.Did Tom Bennett talk about heat?Um, no, but he did confirm that it was not milk of the poppy.No, I'm just kidding.Oh, no, I got excited there for a second.The reason why I was smirking throughout the entire time you were talking to was because
14:48I was imagining C-Smoke having like a rebound boyfriend.Just like, I'm not serious about this guy, but, you know, it's fun.We're just going out.Yeah, exactly.You're going to hit the bars.He kind of looks like you.Yeah.But, you know, he's going to stay.
15:03So, yeah.Mal, I, you know, Raneira and Allison are basically like their friendship, their relationship, their pairing is like the framing device that's guiding the show in a lot of ways.And I thought it was interesting that there's almost the zero-something happening.Like one of them is alone.The other one is surrounded in this case by dragons.And it can never be the same at the same time.Like there's always this seesaw seemingly going on in this episode after Reneer has talked a lot about the isolation of her position and really only have.having Masaria to talk to.
15:35Now we're kind of in a place where Allisononly really has the maister to talk toas she gets a riot hand bandaged.And I was kind of intrigued, but also mystifiedabout what her journey was this episodeas she goes off to the Kingswood, right?To just Ophelia it up.For some air. Yeah. Take the air.
15:58Take the world's biggest bath.There's a move over, big crossbow, big bathtub has arrived.Yes.In the form of a natural body of water.Love that for Allison, honestly.I hope she brought her washcloths.This, I love that observation, Chris, about that link, but also kind of seesaw.Because I think even in that seesaw, we still have the link.
16:24Alicent is just continuing to live Reneira's life on delay.Like, this is exactly what we saw Renira do in the third episode of the first season during the huntwhen she got on her horse and went off and Kristen followed.And it was one person, Renira, one person, Allison, and one, right?One guard, your Sworn Shield.Like, that's it.Sir Rickard is here with Allison.Kristen was there with Renira.
16:52And you have the air and the wilderness and the inescapable belief that nobody gives a shit where you are.Right?Because what was the thing that Renira said in the carriage on the car.the way to that hunt. Like, no one's here for me. And that's the same sensation that Allison is bringinginto this escape, what she says to Orwell, like, all my life, I have endeavored to serve both myhouse in the realm, and somehow none of it matters. We are cast aside or hated. But we talkeda lot about, like, this question of what was going to be next for Alicent, because her entire lifehas been lived, and she has, the evolution has been that she has increasingly stare this in the face
17:23and resented it and called it out, called out Otto, called out other characters for this reality. Buther life has been lived for duty through duty.That was sometimes the justification.That was the mooring.And so if everybody in your life, right, your husband's dead.One of your son's the one you had like a very disturbing relationship with it, a harrowing, do nothing.What could you contribute fight with before he was burned into a pile of goo?Though, you know, he's upright-ish.
17:50Good for him.That goo is mobile.Doing great.It seems like he's in no pain at all and everything will be fine.Agon's going to be playing the masters next year, man.That's going to be fine.Rapid recovery.My God, blood of the dragon, indeed.
18:05Her other son fired her from the small council, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, on the list goes.She's looking for purpose, just as Renera was.And so to see her out there in the woods, in the water, like, that connection tothe Renera felt so palpable.I will be honest that there was like, while I find that thematically compelling,Allison, like looking for a foothold in the world, there was a little part of me thatwas like, is Allison trying to figure out what to do,or is the show trying to figure out what to do with Allison?
18:35Well, I had a-That was definitely there, I think.I know I pretended like I didn't have any big picture questions,but I do.And this is another little moment where it's like,is the history aspect of this textnot quite matching up with like the storytelling needsof a television show, right?
18:57they don't necessarily know, okay,like, Allison gets sidelined,but what does she do when she's sidelined,and how is what she's doing while she's sidelined,attaching itself to all the other characters,if not actually, then thematically.So they have to kind of make stuff uplike she goes to a pond, right?
19:13Yeah, I love that.They're like, what in the writer's room,someone's just like, what if she goes to a pond?Yeah, I think we're going to have to,because this is a book departure,nobody bothered to jot down Allison's camping tripin the histories.Well, it'll be weird if Mushroom is,
19:27Like, I was also there, and she did go swimming.That's his whole thing.That's his whole thing to be like, I was there.And then the parenthetical mushroom who was not there.But yeah, so I think we're going to have to see how that plays out.Do they need her somewhere for whatever they want,or not somewhere for whatever they want to do in the finale?Mallory and I, like, don't know because we're not quite sure what they're doing here.
19:47But, like, I think that is doubly true for Renira.I don't mean to move around on your timeline.Not at all.Not at all.But like, the scene with Jace, which I thought was actually like really, really well done,where Jace, the idea to get other dragon writers is Jace's initially.And it is Jace's in the book.But in the book, Jase is like, let's do, let's go the whole thing.
20:15Yeah.All dragon seeds welcome, right?And here he's having this objection to the bastards because of his own, you know.Bastardly.nebulous claim, you know, and he was like, the fact that he is a dragon rider has been his proof that he is eligible to be an heir, that he has Targaryen blood in him, because he's got the dark hair of his father.Did you know, did you think we would have dark hair?Like, what a, what a chilling moment.I thought that was so good.
20:45But so they needed, they needed Jace to be out on this part two of the sewing so that Reneer had, again, something to do, which is something all season they've been trying to figure out for Reneer.because, as we've been saying again and again on Talk the Thrones,Reneer is off the board at this point in the story,but they're not going to put Emma Darcy in a room and not check in with them.And so it's like, so then this becomes Reneira's project.And I think they did a really elegant job of making Jace's objection feel organicto that character and organic to that relationship.And I thought they did a really good job, you know, again, to Mallory's initial point of like,
21:24Reneer'sperhaps troubling self-beliefas it burgeons in this episode.But all of that is part ofthis idea that you keep coming back tobecause you host this podcast called The Watchthat I hope that people listen to.But you're a TV guy, you're a book guy,
21:42but you're a TV guy and you're like, the mechanics oftelevision do not allow you to takeyour main characters and stick them in a pondfor too long, you know?Or have him only chatting with their one friendwhile everything else is happening.Right.It's a tough beat.
21:56Yeah, I admire the waythey're essentially trying to createaction and tension in conversationsbecause that's really the only thingthat these people are doing right now.And that is probably going to be somethingthat this show faces as even the major conflicts comebecause only so many people can ride dragons, right?
22:15I thought that that kind of really came to lifein this next scene, the Jasper and Laris'conversation about Seas Smoke.So these are two, I wouldn't call them tertiary characters.We've seen obviously a lot and we have a ton of time for Laris on this show.But this was very crowny to me.Was this idea of a rumor that could actually be of political value.But these two guys are like, I don't know if I want to hold this football for very long.
22:43So why don't you give it to him?No, why don't you give it to him?It would be good for you if you told him.No, I think it's just like, why don't you tell him?and they go back and forth on this.It's a great conversation.It's an interesting, interesting move by Laris,who I think is the character
22:58who's been allowed the most ambiguityin this show so far.Joe, what did you think of this whole moment?I thought it was beautifully written,but it was also like interestingly played alsowhile this whole conversation is happening.Amon is sending a bunch of guys to the wall personally.One of the guys, Marty and Eddie.
23:15Marty and Eddie.The last of Agon's Bros.Bye.I love thisI don't knowam I allowed to saythat a lyric sceneis again
23:24my favorite sceneof an episodeI love this forWe can only be who we areI do youI support youI'm happy to keep Jasperin the tertiary character
23:32Slapbut Laris is likekind of the main character energyfor me right nowand I think thatexactly what you identifiedthis sort of likeno I'll go less
23:42no I'll go lesslike you likeit would benefit youdon't you thinklike I just thoughtall of the undertones of that conversationand all of the looks that they were giving each otherand all of the smiles
23:54and then the staging of it, I thoughtwas just impeccableespecially since likethat staging is something that Malloryand I think about a lot because it's one of Mallory's favoritescenes from season oneis Laris's father, Lionel Strong,and Vassaris watching
24:10the boys sparred down in the yardfrom a very similar vantage pointand so for him to be there.It will certainly form a lifelong bond.Wouldn't you agree?Yeah, and here's Aymond sending his brother's buddies to the wall.But yeah, that just like the framing over their shoulders of just this like blonde figurepacing back and forth and ranting in the courtyard, I just thought was like absolutely
24:33perfection.I love this.I mean, I think the sewing as a sort of visual spectacle and character-based spectaclewas extraordinary.But I think I just continued to latch mostly to palace intrigue.and Laris is my guy for that.So a couple of things here, Mal,jump on whichever one you want.
24:52One, I just thought on a filmmaking levelthat was really cool how in this episodea couple of times,the camera connected different parts of our world.So it would basically be like,in this situation, you got the balcony sceneof them looking down onto the courtyardand seeing things happening in the courtyard
25:09while they're having a conversationabout things happening beyond the palace walls, right?Another amazing moment was out of the tunneland into the Weirwood Garden in Heron Hall.That was really cool.So I love the idea that this worldhas got connective tissue that we can see.But for me, it's like,
25:28and this comes up a lot towards the end of the episode,the biggest thing for me was like,who is the source of this rumor that Jasper has?A stable guy, right?And he gets it from, what, a cook or a sailor?Ironrod, Squire, Stablehand,his father, fisherman.It's the small folk game of telephone, right?
25:46And we get another version of thatwhen we watch Masaria's messagemake its way via Allenand the fishingthe fishing boat networkthat he has set up all the way toAlinda to start actually recruiting the scene.Tinker Taylor Soldier Massaria.
26:02Yeah, the episode telling us specificallyshowing us what the network of information ison each side, I thought was really, really cool.I loved that. And like you pairthe specificity of thatof Iron Rod running through thechain of custody of information there, us seeing that later.That's very particular. It's very precise with the
26:22opakness of what is driving Ironrod and Laris in a scenelike that. How much is it fear, right, of howAman might respond, how much of it is, maybe they don't want him toare they considering maybe it's better if he doesn't have that information?Yeah. Right? They want him to be backfooted because of what he didin the last episode. Like, we haven't seen a moment like thatpreviously. We saw it afterAmon shamed Laris
26:48and we know that Laris is there with Egonlike, come on, buddy, let's go, right?So the sequencing of when we're getting kind of these insightsinto how people are behavingand the pairing of the kind of likethe subtle with the specific I thought was really cool.Okay, I'm gonna, oh go ahead Joe.Well, on the small folk question,
27:06I think it's really interesting because likeCondal said pre-season premierelike, you know, we're really gonna focus onthe small folk this season.This is really an emphasis for us this season.It was the name of an episode.We got a small folk named episode.We've been seeing riots.
27:21We've been in the streets of Kings Landing.Just one chicken for the pie.But what's interesting for those of us who are like book readers or wiki perusers is like a lot of that felt like cover for the fact that we knew that Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Adam were all going to be dragon writers by the end of the season.that they're like, we're spending time with these small folk,not just because we want to give you an insight into the tavernor, you know, home life with a guy called Hugh,but like we need you to know these charactersso that when we light them on fire or near as later on, you care
27:59whether or not we do.But it wasn't just that.Obviously, they've done a lot of other work around it,and I think Mal calling out the montage,the Dragonsteed recruiting.montage. I don't know that we've gotten likea montage this season on House of the Dragon.I loved it. I loved it.
28:18And alsothere's like anti, there's like aquick shot of anti-dragon propaganda that hasbeen like cropping up in all the trailers and I just thoughtit was interesting that that was just part of this montage.I don't know if that's anotherMasaria thing or if that is generallylike organically coming from the people
28:34who are pissed off aboutyou know, the variousdragon antics. We'll see. But likeI think this small folkquestion and how it's been deployed and how they balance that with, you know,trying to sneak some dragon riders under the noses of people who didn't know what was coming.It was an interesting balancing act for them this season.I guess in a different world, we would have gotten a three-episode arc for the guy who got
28:58lit on fire.Silver Dennis.How do you guys know his name is Silver Dennis?Silver Dennis.First of all, he was cast, but that's a character from the book.His approach is described and harrowing detail in the text.I have a question about what Joe was justsketching out about the time with the small folk
29:14that I'm interested to ask you as ashow lens first person, Christopher.Where does you land on the pros and consof that, of having spent so much time with the eventual writers?Because on the one hand, we know themand we are more invested in themthan if they had just appeared to us in real time at the sewing,which is what happens in the book.
29:32You're like, oh, here are these new writers.But did it sap any of the suspense of the sewing?Again, a sequence I loved and found rivetingbecause you're like, I have to assumethat I know who's gonna pair here.It's thrown, so like, O'F and Hughcould certainly be killed spectacularly.But it felt, did it feel improbable to you
29:50that anyone else would emerge from that scene as a writer?But I did not.Well, I wanted one more, like, red hair,like, to your point about Silver Dennis.Like, I would have loved one more,one character in that scenewho we have spent equal time with,who we know.
30:03It didn't work out for them.Because Stefan Darklinhas sort of serves that purpose,though he's serving another narrative purpose.but like he sort of serves that purpose in the previous episode.There are other potentials for that in the book that they opted not to go with,which I think is interesting.But like, yeah, I was just sort of like, okay, it's a bunch of red shirts and Hugh and
30:22Ulf, who we know, and they're the guys to get the dragon.I've been thinking about that all season.I'm like, where is my like, maybe this person too, maybe this blonde lady I've never metbefore is going to make it.No.Actually, we haven't mentioned this because we've been my fault jumping around a little bit.But like, I think one of the things.the most chilling things of that whole sewing
30:40is in the books, it's so voluntary.It's like there's a huge lure.You'll become a knight. You will get lands.Your sons will be unobled.Your daughters will be married off to lords.Like, if you come, come right to dragon.All presented again, as you noted earlier, as Jace's offer.Yeah, which is just a fascinating update.
31:00But like, come, you know, come to us and get all of this bounty.Reneer does, in her speech, say, like, you know,I would not describe it as the warmest pitch.No, but she's just sort of like,you've decided this, maybe this will change your life,you've decided to do this.All that still felt like you can leave if you don't want to,but then the guards line up behind them
31:21and physically hold them back as they try to run.And that felt really wild.I will also say that she even says,even if this works out,your life as you know it is over.Now, maybe some of those people are like,that's great.I mean, she even says some of that,
31:35for some of you that may be good,But either way, you're not going to go back to your old life, even if you do not get lit on fire and eat.So that was very interesting.To answer your question, Mal, I am a friend of the small folk.But it was, I think, obviously, quite telegraphed.They were spending time with the people who were going to be selected.And I would not describe Hughes specifically as, like, my favorite.favorite storyline in all of television history.
32:10So, like, I was ready for him to become whatever he was going to become.You know, like, it was...But I think it's, like, the little differences between these guys and, like, the littledifferences in their outlooks, their psychologies is fascinating.And I think they did a good job painting that picture for those guys.Did they kill his daughter off screen?On screen, yeah.What happened there?
32:30He was like, we lost our girl.And I was like, we did.It was going to save her.It's like, oh, she did.And I don't mean to sound morbid.look dead when they were holding her.She was like gray.We could keep going through the episode chronologically.
32:43And like I said, we don't have to belabor every one of these scenes.I think that the Adam and Reneer get back to Dragonstone and the council react scene.We've talked a little bit about...Iconic stuff from Keltygar.Just day drinking after getting slapped and embarrassed.That's what I was going to say.That guy did not learn his lesson, so he's still going to shoot his mouth off because she's not around.I'm just going to remind people something we talked about earlier this season,
33:05which is that house Keltygarare an old Valerian family.It's just like sometimes you get dragonsand sometimes you get crabsand the Celtigar's got crabsand that must suck for them.So, not that kind of crabs.I mean, maybe also though.
33:18Maybe also them.We get Corliss's well done to Adamin both of his interactionswith Adam and Alan in this episodea slight thawing of paternal...It's still pretty chilly.Yeah, I mean, I think he's playing his cardsclose to his vest.
33:35He's a recent one.That's pretty, well done to add.And I found quite cold.I thought the, you should be a son to a father.That's about as good as a guess.Come on.Come on.I thought there was more.
33:47He didn't strike out three times.Well, I mean, you were an all metro catcher, so I don't think you ever struck out three times.Like just a pure line drive into the gaps guy.I always knew where there.Always.Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?Does this sound like you?
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36:00Then we get to, honestly, for this episode,best of times, worst of times.Best of times is Oscar and Damon,just absolutely crushing each other,mostly Oscar crushing Damon,an incredible negotiation about what it's going to taketo get the men of the Riverlands to join Renera's cause,which they historically, and I think even psychologically,
36:21are like, we got to do this, but not for this prick.And that's the problem is because Damon has committed war crimesor at least sanction them during his weird stay at Heron Hall.He's still managed to do this.And there's a lot of mess-on-isle-riverlands.to clean up. And Oscar, in his teenage wisdom, comes up with the solution. And Damon eventuallygoes for it, which is essentially to execute the guy who he had been, Willem Blackwood, is that right?Yeah. The guy who had been his agent of chaos out there and really kind of started the ball rolling
36:55with all this stuff. Oscar's like, you got all of us, but he has to go and you have to give him thejustice. So I thought that scene was amazing. And I have to say this is one Vassar's seen too many for me.the follow-up scene of dreaming of Patty Concedingand this crown and Damon only being ableto sort of manifest any sort of psychological depthin this dream state. I love Matt Smith. I want him out of thisplace in this show and I want him to be like in the mix more.I thought he was done after last week.
37:25You said he was done, Joe. I thought he was done. I really thought that.And honestly, if this scene had been in last week's episode,I wouldn't have been sort of like as crusty as,I kind of feel about it.But like, it's a great scene in terms of like this idea of, you know, ruling is really hard.That's the lesson that Damon is learning here is like causing chaos is fun and fighting is fun and winning is fun.But being a ruler, it sucks.And maybe that's what Damon walks out of Haran Hall being like, Reneer, you're welcome to it.
38:01I don't fucking want it, actually.I actually don't.if I have to do this.I was a little surprised that Damon felt so, like, morally conflicted about chopping Willem's head offbecause even though, like, we at home can be like, this is morally repugnant,you ask this guy to do this thing and you're talking of his head.For Damon, it feels like just another Tuesday betrayal.Like, why wouldn't you do it?
38:25Couldn't have been quicker to cut off Vaman's head in the throne room last season.I did want to ask you, I know you're just, you're so reeling after, like, learning aboutand losing your friend Silver Dennis.But I want to ask you how you feel about the factthat one of the River Lords in this scene is named Peter Piper.How do you feel about that?It's news to me.Honestly, this is breaking news.
38:48I'm just receiving this.Sometimes I feel like George just ran out of energy at the end of a day,and his name is Peter Piper.This is George at his best.This is what he's doing for us.Yeah, Mr. George.Truly, truly.And then he taps the text at the end and says,
39:05mischief manage and walks away.I, yeah, I agreed on the, like,would Damon be conflict?I kind of feel like Damon would just walk over,chop off his head, and move about his day.I guess maybe we're supposed to say,oh, this does show that he has made some sort of, like,moral progress after all of his,
39:24to quote my pal and colleagueand co-host and partner, Joanna Robinson,ghost therapy.I thought that,when he saw that, I had the same, oh, boy, we're not done with the dream's reaction,but I thought, like, in terms of just that final message,I agree, if it had been last week, then it feels more contained.But the final kind of offer, it's like,
39:44are you going to take it or not as the final test in the trial feels appropriate?Vesaris, like, it took me back to Vassaris when he named Reneera Air,which is, of course, intercut with Damon flight, right?Has he's been cast out.He gets on Karexes.He flies away.you know, Viserra saying to Roneira,like, a dragon saddle is one thing,
40:06but the Iron Throne is the most dangerous seat in the realm.And for every character,like, there's a lesson in that realityin this episode, in some form.I mean, we're going to get towhen Aem End has to...Basically, Amon, at the end of the episode,just has to pull a Thanos, fine,
40:23I'll do it myself.Like, you're a regent, but you're the rider.Like, it's all on you now.Your advisors aren't even telling you what's going on.So everybody has their versionof, like, what does that danger look like?and for Damon to have to confrontlike this like child is going to dunk on me
40:38for eons on end and shame meand I'm going to tell him to watch his tongueand he's going to say do you want my army or notand I'm going to have to fucking take it.That was the hard of me that was likethat's what I was and there's a part of me that was likeI think he just he's like you're using me as your puppetand I don't like being like ordered around
40:56you know that felt like it was at play there too.That makes sense to me that it's not likeif it were his idea to cut Will of Blackwoodshead off, he's like, no prob, a Tuesday.But it's like him having to swallow.Yeah, yeah, yeah.You know, there's one thing that I think is bubbling under the surface here, though.It'll be interesting to see if it comes up, if and when Damon and Reneer are reunited.
41:17Is that it does seem like a couple of people have mentioned you've done some incrediblybad stuff and done it in Reneer's name.Like, they keep mentioning the fact that, like, hey, by the way, like, you're the king consort.and like you're doing this and when this stuff goes out on the street,it's got her name on it.So just keep that in mind.Keep an eye on that.Because I do feel like they've mentioned it two or three times.
41:43And whenever they next have their big blowout fight,which is inevitable when Roneira's like,so where have you been, you know?I do think there's going to be something too.Like, by the way, I've made a bit of a mess of the riverlands.Another mess for you to, another mess for you to come clean up for me, Reneer.Thanks so much.Basically.
42:04I got mud everywhere. I'm so sorry.Let's get into Egon, the long walk.And I got to tell you guys something.It was a pretty short walk before he fell over and cried.Does that feel, did you experience that this week, Mallory?This has been me all week.This is my journey right now.This is me after exactly one kettlebell workout.
42:25I have to say, though, he looked a lot better than I thought he was going to.I agree. I agree.Is that Tom Glenn Carney stuff where it's like, this guy's just too cute?We got to get them up and around.Like, we can't, we can't really melt this dude's face off.Well, it's like in Game of Thrones, Tyrion is supposed to get, like, his entire nose choppedoff at the blackwater.Yeah, and it's like, no, let's just give him a cool scar.
42:46They're like, Peter Denglage is too good looking.We got to keep the whole face intact.Yeah, so I do think.And also, like, maybe they're doing the prosthetics department of favor where they're like,you don't have to imply, like, the full face when we're doing egg on.I think you guys are both being quite generous here while his burns are healing.maybe a little ahead of our anticipated schedule.He definitely still looks like Bilbo
43:09when we see him and he's finally old.He's aged 60 years in a weekand like we didn't get a chance to see his chest.Also, I couldn't tell if his cane brokeor he rebroke his leg.The sound was trouble.Yeah, it was hard to distinguish.The thing that I want to talk about the most here
43:29is Laris coming inand talking to the maister,Joe.Laris' major line here is,I fear he won't rest for some timeor something to, I'm paraphrasing Laris,but it's essentially like he will not be restingbasically for the rest of his life,
43:47so we need to get him in the best shape we possibly can.Why, I get, I think I intuitively understandwhy he's saying that.What was your read on why he's saying that?Yeah, I have some question marks around it,but I would say one interpretationwould just be like, we both knowthat Amon will kill Agon if he can.
44:06And so we need him as strong,if he's going to survive this,he can't just malinger in the bed.He needs to walk around and do this stuff.I have some other ideas,but I don't think they belong anywhere outside of spoiler section.So, like, that's my main thought.What do you think, Mallory?
44:23Yeah, I think he,he, there was a, it will be long before he may rest again.There's, like, the clock feels very present there.Like, I just, I love how you're describing this, Chris, best shape of his life as, like, a training camp.I know.Like, and then the question is like, what?Yeah, but, you know, we talked about this when we were discussing episode six and, like,the many things that play with Laris depriving Egan of the milk of the poppy and how, like,
44:53he needs his focus, he needs him to be sharp for a second just so he could talk to him and they can have that conversation.But also this, like, budding awareness of kind of, of how, you know, you know,Amon is operating through Orwild to, like, keep Agon adult.So, you know, and...Orwhile, man.It's taking orders.Laris is given them orders.Amon's given him orders.
45:14Alicant is like, what do I do with my life?Like, he is really in the thick of it.So that's interesting to see his increased stature in the story at this point.I thought that there was something interesting going on therebecause, technically speaking, or chart-wise,I'm sure Laris has some control over what Orwell.does, but it seemed like they were like,we're simpatico.
45:35Like he's, Orwell seems to be like, I agree with you.Like, his guy's in danger.I would just say like,Orwell, like, yes, he's the grandmaister.He has like this higher calling,but like everybody else on that council,he's a political animal.They're always making calculations all of them
45:49at every moment in time.Thought that the line about like,I'll teach you how to walk with a limp,basically is, was very interesting,both in terms of like,seem genuinely empathetic,but also like I'm going to remind youhow disfigured you are in
46:05this motivational speech.So very...This is the best.This is why Lyris is the man.He's always saying like nine different things.We have the Corlis talking to Allen's scene,which I really only notedfor Allen's enthusiasm for C and Salt.
46:24That's great to know what you love in lifeand to pursue it.But for Corliss, like what did Bayless say to him?I know.And he was like, you know,granddaughter, I would make you my errand.She said, I'm blood and fire.Drift Mark must pass to Salt and Sea.
46:37So he's been like waiting for someone to embrace his legacy,salt and see what his house and his name stands for.I thought there was a lot of nuance in the lead up to thatbecause he is like, you know, again,he asked about his mother's history.I thought that was such a tough look for our guy,Corlis Valerian, to be like, I fathered two bastards on your motherand didn't really know anything about her.
46:59Brutal, genuinely brutal.I was on tour with Motley crew in the 80s.Right.Also, but this is what Steve said to us when we interviewed him about this.He's like, it's one thing to have one bastard.Yeah.One illegitimate kid with a woman you don't really know.To have two over the course of several years.
47:17That's an affair that lasts us several years.And he doesn't know anything about her.Wild stuff.But then the fact that he was basically like,so this writer that everybody's talking about,it's your brother.Our people are of old Valeria,but we're no dragon lords.
47:31I didn't know much about your mother's heritage.Maybe there's something on her side that allowed for this.Do you think you should go try?And that simultaneously...And then his like, that little like smile when Alan said,I'm saw and see.Like the, on the one hand,you know there's a part of Corlis that's like,
47:47my, I haven't acknowledged them out loudto other people as my bastards yet, as my sons.You know there's a part of him that's like,wow, Adam, my kid claimed a dragon.Holy fuck.That's awesome.Right?That's power.
48:00That's great. That's might.And so there's a little bit of thatbehind the Allen push, but this felt like a win-win.Either Allen says yes and goes to try to claima dragon and he has two dragon ridersin his line, orAlan does this and says,no, actually, like, it's the fleet for me.
48:19That's what he's wanted somebodyto say to him. Yeah, my life, my love, my ladyis the sea. Yeah, he doesn't honestlythey just go full guardians too.Has only left the docs twiceby my account in this seasonof television. Once when he'slike walking back with Adam to like get stew and then once on his little spy mission in this episode.
48:38So that guy is really about that life.Well, yeah, this is something that Mal and I talked a bit about on House of Ard with Alan and Adamand with Hugh and with Ulf.But I have fewer complaints about Ulf just because I really like to have Benet,but like all of them were given like one-note characteristics, right?Like Hugh is a guy with a sick kid.AlanAll flights to tell stories for beer
49:04You knowAnd Adam is likeYou knowIt's all centered aroundSort of like one story noteLike AdamWhen Corliss saysWell done in a way that
49:12Mallor and I found ChileAnd you found heartwarmingAnd then Adam's just like aloneIn that basically I want to have a catch dadBut I'm likeI'm like who's hangingAdamsAdam's brought into Dragonstone
49:24LikeAnd no oneHe's all alone thereAnd I was likeBut what do I know about likeWhat do I know about himthan he likes to make soup and, you know,gather seafood from, you know, the shore
49:36and talk to his brother about what they're owed.I'm like, did he have friends and like a girl or boyfriendhe left behind?Like, does he, like, what is Adam's state of mind hereother than giddy excitement, which is very much present?And I'm just like, I just, I want to know more.I want to know more.It reminded me of seeing Gendry, like a bastard
49:56brought into Dragonstone for some rulers, like, end in need.and like, you know, because we know that Adam has this ambition and is excited and, like, bent the knee seemingly gladly and all of that, it mitigates and abates that comparison a little bit, but there is still that, like, sensation, I think, that builds over the course of the episode when we see, like, what Chris was describing earlier and track kind of Renera's face.And I thought the, the, Reneer watching the sewing of the seeds turned into the red sewing, the slaughter, which is so, so harrowing and disturbing.and it's like everybody is a pawn in the great game, ultimately.You're in the great game now.I will say that I didn't really have a lot of notes on Raina at the Erie Gettner.Here's one.And we talked about this one, House Barber, just to get it on the Talk to Thrones record.
50:49Because we actually saw it now.We saw the departing party for the gay abandon.Jane Arryn's saying that she was going to send six men.With four royal family.Four royal children.Storm Cloud the dragon, the eggs.And Raina is such a dereliction of responsibility,duty, and a pledge.
51:11It is astonishing and shocking.When I actually saw them walking out,I was like, what is just deranged?Where are all the people?And what was up with her look to Raina after the fact?Like, as the doors are closing,she's kind of like, what do you think she was trying to communicate there, Joe?it's a great question
51:29I don't have a great answerthere's a part of me in trying to makeJane Aaron a slightly more interesting characterthan she has been so far because she's reallycool in the book oh so she's trying to be likeooh she's mysterious like what's she about or maybeshe's like is this some sort oflike I challenge you to go clean that
51:46dragon is that what's happeninghere that's methat's me having to readway between the lines and that's probably notwhat's happening there she's just probably likeand I look stoic and goodbyeBut I would love for there to be an extra agenda for Lady Jane Aaron.Okay, so let's get to the Renera Jace fight.
52:04We talked about this a little bit so we can move through it.I will just say that several times over the course of this season,and I believe even in this episode,especially in this conversation with Jase,the Oppenheimer, we need to show them what true power isso that we can avoid this war and make it like a bloodless conflict thing.She's making that into her, like,that's her platform now.
52:28She says that's all the seeds too,like without bloodshed.We think this is going to happen without bloodshed?Again, that's...Like, she's pretty wrong,literally five seconds later.So, like, she keeps saying this.She seems to ignore the factory
52:39and he's burned up most of an armyat Rook's rest.Like, multiple people have been lit on fireduring the sewing attempts in the past.And now she's still just like,I have to have all these dragons.We have to have this superiorityso that people understand
52:55what, like, this powermeans, and then I could just take the throne like I'm supposed to, because these guys willunderstand, like, what the consequences would be. So I thought that was interesting. When you starttelling your kids that stuff, Joe, it's like, you believe it. You know, like, you're startingto really believe your own cooking there. I think it's interesting. We skip past it, which is fine.The conversation that she has with Masaria, where I love that too. Yeah, it's like looking underthe sheets instead of in the woodpiles. Yeah, a classic direct Georgia-R-Martin quote. But, like,I think that when Masarius is the order.
53:26of things has changed your grace, why not embrace it?And something Amel and I talk about a lot is that in like this great scene that we love fromseason one, when Rainis challenges Reneira's, not claim, but just saying like they're nevergoing to accept you.You know, it's not the order of things.And Reneer says, when I am queen, I will make a new order.Not the band, but just like, you know, a new approach.And so like the, when she says, let us raise an army of bastards is her like, that's going
53:55to go on the merch, right?Like, that's the, that's the slogan for Renira now.I just think that's, it's something that she's been dreaming of literally, like, since wefirst met her in season one, this idea of, like, I set the rules.And Renira as, like, a kind and empathetic character has been interesting to know,but this has always been in her.Yeah, it's where it's going.This idea of, I am making the world into where I want it to be.
54:23He shared the dream with me.Yeah.I have a greater responsibility.And then Masaria's like,just tweet, you are a brat.I totally love it.Start wearing green, you got it.I think that the...
54:37I guess that wouldn't work for Reniero.She can't really start wearing green.It's a different shade of green.It's a lime green.Very limited color palettes on offerfor the bulk of the characters right now.Stuff.Okay, I think that there's...
54:52The most charitable, like,read, I think we can...have on what you're outlining Joe, the like,so let's be team bastard, right?Let's do it.Is that that could be, you could argue,that that is for Reneera,a version of wear, like, armor.
55:09What we talked about last week.Make your weakness, your strength.People have been saying for nearly a couple decades,like since Jace was born,that your kids, that your heir,that their bastards that are not legitimate.And you've been avoiding itand afraid of it and worry
55:26about how it was going to cut down your claimand lean in.But for Jace,all it is is a threatto the mostthe most like sacred and personalinsecurity and fear that he carries.And it's not like Jason Reneer
55:42have never talked aboutHarwin Strong. Like in the sixth episode ofseason one, he flat outside his Harwin Strong,my father, right? He had thatvery heart-wrenching moment that we'd like to talk aboutat Lena's funeral in the next episode.Like, I have as much claim tosympathy as they do after Harwin had been burned in the Heron Hall fire.
56:00It's part of why we were so struck when we saw Jason and Bala just openly discuss Harwinin the second episode of this season because like acknowledging this out loud in any wayis a dangerous thing for Jason always has been.It's the undermining thing, right, to his entire sense of identity and self.And so from his perspective, I'm interested to see if like it feels like this tracks foreverybody watching this episode, like how we go from Jace being the character.two episodes ago to say like,he was the one who issued the,
56:32to guilt us in glory line about the Targaryen propaganda.And then so how does he go here to like,well,not just the hideousness of him saying like they're mongrels,which of course, again, is coming from,he's projecting his own insecurity and fear of what other people think of him,but still brutal, right?How does he go from like, it gets just to gildas and glory
56:53into, well, if anybody can claim a dragon, then what are we?Like, what is House Targaryen?What does it mean to be the blood of the dragon?And I think that actually tracks nicely.I really agree with what Joe said earlierbecause it feels like the logical, rational starting point of,let's go find the Highborns,the Targs who married into other houses, you know,
57:10is a different thing for him than let's open this upto people who might be able to challenge my claimbecause other people in the realm might thinkthat they had an equal claim to mebecause they will also only see me as a bastard.I think one of the things thatteam Black has going against itis just a real lack of definition of what people are supposed to be doing
57:28because so much of the core of that group of peopleis made up of people that need to stay alive.So while Kristen is walking into warand Aiman seems to be down to go get Vagaranytime anything pops off.It's like, Reneer is reluctant to put Jace in charge of anything.He kind of freelances that whole thing at the twins in the first placebecause he's supposed to fly to Heron Hall, isn't he?
57:53He's not supposed to leave at all.stay in his room.Yeah.So she's basically treating him like he's grounded.Bela is like slowly coming into the fold.She's got the cool cloak on in this episode.But like I don't necessarily feel like she's been given a hugemandate of things to do.
58:11It seems like they're kind of like,we're trying to fight a war without actually fighting a waruntil the very end of this episode where they obviously get like...It's supposed to be Damon, right?Like, Damon is supposed to be the one like...And she's like, Damon, Damon, Damon.And David.Yeah, I'm talking about that.
58:25Yeah.But like, you know, Rehnese and Damon, like, they had those people, those people just, like, either left or died or, you know, Corlis is waiting for them to scrape the final barnacle off the ship.And then he can, like, you know, activate the fleet.Like, it's really interesting to me that idea of can we fight this war without bloodshed?There already has been bloodshed.But can we go forward without bloodshed?the reading up on like reminding myself about what vermithor and silver wing specifically have done in the in the history as dragons of royal targaryens was really an interesting way to think about what going forward could look like because vermouthor is a massive old dragon but like vermithor and silver wing were written by jeharis and al-assane who we met in the very first episode right at the great councilthat old, old king and his wife,
59:23these were their dragons.And there's just all these stories.Like, Jeharris has this repud...Jeharis the conciliator, right?Concilated.That's what he did.There was no, there was peace he conciliated.But what he often did was just let his dragons intimidate people.
59:39The deterrence.Yes.When there's a great passage where, like, he's pissed off a Barathean,and the Baratheon comes in.He just has Vermithor there eating a bull,and he, like, scratches under his chin.And he's like, we don't have a problem, do we?Like, we're good, right?
59:54And the Baratheans like, yeah, we're good, we're good.Or when they're picking a new, you know, high septon down in Old Town,he and his wife just like right over there on their dragons and Silver Wing just like sitsatop the tower, fans the flames of the tower with her wings.And they're like, I guess we'll pick the Pope that you think should be the Pope.I guess that'll be the new Pope.And so it's like, they have worked as deterrence in the past.And this is like, I can understand how Roneira could see that as a possible future.
01:00:27I just need to fly my dragon somewhere and people will just calm down.They've just never had to do that against other people who had dragons before.Yeah.That Vermethor moment that you're citing is like one of my favorite passages in the book because I think it's, I think like everything else,the histories end up painting somebody with one label and then you see the complexities of it.And so, like, Jeharis the conciliator,Jehires the old king, this idea of the peaceful reign,which is true.
01:00:54But that doesn't mean there was an anger or conflict or menaceor intent behind it.And so, like, why would I need hostages?I have your word.That is all I require.But Grandmester Benefer heard the words he did not speak.Every man and maid and child in the stormlandsis my hostage whilst I ride him.
01:01:10Like, that's intense.I think the thing is that there's no case you could make,you being anyone in the story,that Reneira thinks Amand and Vagar and the other side are going to say,cool.Now, of course, I say that acknowledging that Amon turns around at the end,but that's not the same as saying the throne is yours, here you go.And I don't think Reneer believes that that's possible,
01:01:31which then connects to this, can we do it without blood?Can we build up enough strength to win the arms raceand avoid bloodshed, then connects to this other thing we're tracking throughout the episode,this idea of like the righteous, ordained path.because what she says to Jace, who was, like, weeping,and just asked whether he's right to do it or not,is a son staring at his mother, crying and saying to her,don't do this.
01:01:57Like, don't do this to me, right?And she says to him, I cannot gain say that which the gods have laid before me.Now, Renira.She also says right before that she's like, I mislike all of this,which is very well, it's a beautiful turn of phrase.But it's not exactly like, I hate to do this to you.but it's got to be done, you know?Right.
01:02:19The two things that made me think of, though,were like with Reneira and her own history,not just with obviously Agon's dreamand what she has inheritedwith this prophecy and that burden,but like Reneer saw the Whiteheart,remember?In the third episode last season.
01:02:33The white heart, everyone thinks it's going to comeand be there for Agonne of,oh, oh, I'm on the conqueror, babe.Besides, importance, all the stuff.And it appears to Reneer.And Rennira sees it.Kristen sees it. Renira doesn't tell anybody.Renira is not a character at that point in her
01:02:49in her life who feels like she has to go aroundsaying, I seem to be theone that the signs are pointing to.But now she is. That's a notable changein how she behaves. Like, that'ssomething that feels essential for us to track.And then who's her father?Her father is the guy who in that same episode
01:03:06got fucking blitzed and stood by the bonfireand wept to Allison sayingmy obsession killedReneer's mother. What obsession?the obsession with the dream, right, with signs and portents and dreams and prophecy.And you could maybe quibble whether that's exactly the same as saying the gods had blessedyour mission, but I think it's all of a piece.And so we know how that led Viseras astray.
01:03:30And for Reneira to be a character saying these things in this episode is like reallyalarming to me.And then to stand there and to walk away and say like, I've told you all I can, we didn'treally go over the dues and don'ts, but I've told you all I can.The dragons must be the ones to speak now.and then to stand there as Vermethor baths them in fire,was so disturbing.And has her guards prevent them from leaving.
01:03:49That was like the real,so, like, I like that we then have that conflict as viewers too, right?Because we're like, let's go.Let's get to this part.We got the dragons.We powered up.Let's get to this part of the episode.Because, like, you basically, I mean,
01:04:01I'll just note quickly how, like,I really enjoyed the dragon trainers walking out on strike.That was interesting just because I did not really.That's another, like, sign, right?Like, would you consider that an omen if they walked out on you and said, like, fuck this?Right.Well, also, just like, I think it's worth distinguishing for viewers who maybe aren't, like,well-versed.
01:04:22Like, those guys are of a different, like, their allegiances to the dragons, correct?It's different from the book to the show, because in the book, they're an order created byJahres, like, a recently created order.Okay.And they're armored.They're, like, Ryan Connell described them as, like, the Swiss Guard in the book.But basically what happened is in season one,they did not have the budget
01:04:44to create beautiful dragonkeeper armorfor all these people.So he made this lore changethat now they're these like monasticdragon keepers.And he ran it by George and George is like,that's fine.I was listening to him talk about this on a...
01:04:58George is watching giant tape.He's like, sounds good.Sounds good to me.Jacking in on Daniel Jones' knee.Ryan Condal and David Mandel,who is the showrunner on Veep,have a podcast called The Stuff Dreams are Made of,which is about props.
01:05:12And then episode with Ellie Murphy,who's the prop master on House the Dragon,it's like April 11th, 20203,where they talk about the dragonkeepers a lot.And there's all this lore that he's created for them.He's like, there's an elder and an accolite,and they work in pairs,and the elders give up English at some point
01:05:27and only speak valetian.Like, he created this whole lore for themthat we don't necessarily really know.But in doing so,makes them feel less like agents of the crownand more like this long line of, you know,a group that has, that came over from all Valeriaand have their own ideas about this, that, the other thing.
01:05:46Which makes it very different from the versionin the book, I would say.Sorry, a long answer to your short question.No, that's fine.So, Masaria's a group.I think the dragon keeper should fuck off.That's my take.Like, putting these saddles on these drags.
01:05:58Teaspoke sitting there with a saddle on himfor more than half a decadeafter Lainor died.It's like horrible controlling them,trying to command them.A dragon is not a slave, Chris.We know this.Dragon is not a slave.
01:06:11They have bolts through their necks.Oh, that's too bad.You hate to see that.Misaria brings over a bunch ofwould-be dragon riders.Blonde hair preferred,but not necessary.Yeah.
01:06:24And they show up.Renera gives them a little bit of a speech.It's interesting.I thought that really quick momentwhere she basicallyshoes away her bodyguardwas very interestingbecause it reminds you
01:06:36all of these people come from King's Landing.And they basically answereda summons, but...This is an insane thing to do.To welcome all of these strangers intoarms reach of your personand into your castle without like vettinganyone. You could say this
01:06:52is her, putting her faith in these peopleand it's a very selfless act. Oryou could say she's starting to get a littlebit of like God complex here where she's likenothing's going to happen to me. Right?Like they're... Like I'm too bigfor just... I'm not the kind of person who's going todie in a room with a bunch of small folk, right?
01:07:08I've always liked the fact that Renera was a characterwho was unafraid to do the desperate thing.Other characters call her out on it all the time.Allison, Renice, and she's like,what difference does it make if it's desperate?But when does desperate?Desper can be bold, right?Some people are afraid to do the desperate thing,
01:07:25and so they never try to do the thingthat might possession them to win.That's one way to put it.But like, did anyone ask Silver Dennis?Hey, who do you think should be on the crown?Was anyone like, oh, Oulf, tell me,have you ever stood in a pub and, like,touted that you think I'm the rightful queen,
01:07:40and mentioned that you think just,that you think Jace is the rifle there.You have? Cool, great.Hey, Hugh, have you ever stood in the throne roomafter making scorpions for Egonand said that you're glad to serve him?Oh, okay, I have some follow-up questions.Like, there was none of that.
01:07:54That's true, but I think also thestanding amongst a crowd of people move,that felt very,it's one of the first things we learned aboutDavid Targaryen is that he is like the,you know, the people's prince, right?I thought you were going to say very Danny.Like, Danny, like,
01:08:10Danny in the middle of a crowd of peoplethat could just like surround her and could hurt herbut don't. That's different. That's supplicants.This is more like I'm just like I'm amongthe people and it's something that like... These are the homies.Yeah. And it's something that like Damon showed herwhen he smuggled her out of the castle and they had theirlike really totally normal Uncle Nees night
01:08:26and her response at that time was like fuck the small folk. I don'tgive a shit what they think or what they need. But she's justsort of like but this is what it's like to be among them.And something we've been talking about Mallory is likethe way in which Rineir is trying to likecosplay Damon to a certain degree. So I wasjust like reminded of her like, what would Damon do in this scenario?He'd be like, I can walk among these people.
01:08:44This is fine.I'll be fine, you know.Yeah, it's a great call.Okay, let's do the sewing.That becomes the red sewing.Not quite as effective as the red weddingbecause I don't have the emotional attachment to some of these peoplethat I did the people who were at the red wedding.
01:08:59I want to ask about Bermithor first, who is summoned by Reneer.Is this the starter dragon?No, you have to start with Silver Wing.This was astonishing.You have to.You have to start with Silver Wing.Is Silver Wing like, with Silver Wingjust like, I just want to sit here
01:09:16with this brood of eggs, you know what I mean?Not to be, maybe that's a very sexist thingfor me to say, moms can beWar Machine too.But Reniro wasn't like, hey, Silver Wing, are you up for it?Old Silver Wing, judged to be the mostgossip of the masterless dragons.Like, I might at least start with the more chill
01:09:34dragon who I did think it was very effective,ultimately storytelling for Vermithorto basically burn and eat everyoneand Silverwing to just sort of likenose not so old.I feel like that was that. Very sweet.Well, that's what I was going to ask too is thatobviously Vermethor knows to respond to its own name.
01:09:51And I think there's a lot.Dragons are smarter than people.Like you're making,give me a second here.Before we get into IQ testsfor these fictional beasts,I want to ask though,it understands its name and it understands
01:10:04Camere.It wouldn't understand,hey, if you're not feeling this,feel free to like take a step back or blink twice,not kill everyone that you don't like.That's just what dragons do, man.Not sure if you've heard that dragons are not horsesand also a dragon is not a slave.
01:10:20Like for Vermethorne, the gall to summon vermouth.No, it's not like a, I'm not trying to enslave the dragon.I'm trying to be like, hey, so like we're going to try this.If you don't like this guy, it's cool.This is the risk. This is the risk.And again, like, no, seriously.The action is the juice.Reneer knows that, though.
01:10:37Reneer knows the risk.Obviously, we saw it with C-Smoking and Stefan on a smaller scale,but Reneer knows that there's a chancethat Vermethor says, I'm not here for this, and kills everyone.It's not only in play as a possibility.It's almost like a probable outcome.Here's, I think, my real critique of this,I would not send the whole group.
01:11:00I would just send-them.Yeah, just like small groups.And put the rest of them in a soundproof place in Dragonstoneso they can't hear the way.and the screams and the crisping of the skin.Like, who are we in quibble?Because it worked.
01:11:12Not a fan of Rainier going up to the press box.If you're going to call the place, stand on the sidelines.You stay on the field and you keep the headset on.I don't want to see Dan Quinn up there with a backwards hat.We're like, yeah, I can get a good vantage place.Oh, man.Chris, can we tell you something about Vermithor and Silver Wing, both.Joe already mentioned Jahris and Alicane.
01:11:31So, like, first of all, one thing to keep in mind is, like, they know each other, right?They've spent their lives together in those two dragons.Like, that's an interesting thing.as well because their riders were siblings,and also, stop us if you've heard this before, married.But this is an interesting little dragon lore nuggetis that both Vermethor and Silverwing,they were born to Jaharis and Alassane, respectively, from their eggs.
01:11:55So their older sibling, Raina, gave them eggs in their cradles.And then those dragons were born to them.So they've had prior riders, just as Seasmoke had,but they'd only had those prior riders.Like, Jeharis and Alessane, as Joe was noted earlier, lived for a really long time.New experience for these two.Okay.Yeah, they're just their second riders.
01:12:13Silver Wing has been to the wall.Love that.Didn't want to go beyond.That's the one that they're talking about in the first episode of the season?Mm-hmm.Wow.Okay.Well, actually, I think they were talking about Vermethor, but that's the lore changed.
01:12:24But Silver Wing did go to the wall, yeah.Okay.Vermithor, after burning, maiming,and none of these people had the benefit of offing themselves while, like, they were on fire.Where's a dagger.Verminthor eventually, quote unquote, chooses Hugh or Hugh, you know, like, I was curious whether you thought,Vermithor responded more to Hughes trying to save that woman or Hugh being like, fuck it, let's be legends.And just screaming in Vermethor's face.
01:12:57And Verminthor's like, I love this energy.Can I just say that?You and I are going to get a long green.I thought that interaction with that woman was so interesting because last time,we saw Hugh in, well, other than the conversation he has where he's like, remember how our kid died off screen?Like, in the streets of the King's Landing, punching someone to grab their bag of food and, like, running off.When he grabs that woman, when he gets behind the rock and he grabs that woman, she, like, gasps and kind of flinches and it's, like, unclear.Is he going to, like, throw her in front of the dragon?
01:13:28Is he, is he chivalric or is he selfish?And then he does like, you know,he pulls the full Jurassic Park distracting her.And I don't know.I don't know what he was thinking at that moment.My kid is dead.Can I make a lady of my wife?This is the last thing I can do.
01:13:47We learn about his,his Targary and ancestry,which I don't, Mal and I will spend more time.Then we're going a little long.Malina was spent more time talking about this.Sarah Targ!We'll spend more time talking about this on House of R.But like, who we think it is,
01:14:00I can kind of see how,floored by this.Yeah, it's a wild pick.But I can kind of see how then we're,the same way we're meant to like understand Ulf a little bit better by knowing whichtarg he belongs to, which targ this, this guy belongs to.Maybe he's like, just defiant.Defiant and rebellious, I guess is what I would pick up.
01:14:21But it's almost like, it's almost like he's like, I've got, I've kind of shed my familyand now I'm a wild man out here.Like, I read that from him a little bit.Oh, do you feel like Cat was like done, done with him?Like, I don't know.I mean, I thought she was like, okay.I don't want, I don't want you to do this.I don't want to be a lady.
01:14:41I don't want to be a widow.And he's articulating a lot of what Adam has talking about where he's like, I want to matter.I want, I want more from my life than like scrounging, you know.I got the impression that there was a little bit of like, if this is how I go.Yeah.Better this than starving with my wife kind of looking at me side of.I mean, much more than I would believe that, you know,Rainis was committing suicide at Rook's Rest.
01:15:08I could believe that Hugh Hammer's like,I got nothing to lose, let's go.Yeah, for sure.And then we get Mallory into Ulf getting, you know, scurrying around.Did he destroy any Dragon Eggs?He opened the, like, protective crust around a clutch.Okay.We saw Damon, like, really carefully opened that in season one,
01:15:29and then we just saw Ulf stomped through it.It was devastating.I felt such secondhand embarrassment for my guy,Ulf.But eventually Silver Wing comes up,knuzzles him,chooses him,and Ulf,
01:15:45I guess Renira hadn't really thought this throughabout what happens if anybody actually gets chosen.Alv's just like,I'm taking this for a ride right now.I don't need to sign any paperwork.We can,I want to see, I want to open this thing up.Was that a silver wing audible, or was Ulf, like,
01:16:05let's buzz the tower at King's Landing and see what happens?I have no idea.I think it's completely believable and in play to me that Alf would be like,I really hope my boys see this, let's go.Like, I think on the one hand, it's clear he's not in control.He's no idea what he's doing.He's barely hanging on. That's the initial test. Remember, we saw,like, when Amund claimed Vagar, like that first flight, that test,
01:16:28can you stay on?But if he did at any point gain the ability to guide it all,and he was probably like,oh, if they see me and cheer for me, how wonderful.I certainly do not think, a couple things.One, Scorpion guys on the battlements,the ramparts of the Red Keepcould not have been less prepared for this.
01:16:48Arks gone, so.And they felt a shit without him.That's the real legacy of the Cargall twins.They were needed and they had purpose after all.I have another note.Amund parkingVagar so far awayweeks
01:17:01Vigar's too big to be any closerbut it reeks of me being likeyou know what I just got my car washI'm gonna park it really far from the malland then when I'm leaving the mallI'm like I made a huge mistakethis is a terribly long walk back to my carlike Vagar having to be like
01:17:18Amid having to be likenow I have to ride a horsea significant amount to get to Vigarsummon himand then get up in thethe air. So he gets up in the air.I'm sorry. I refer to mycar as him. So that's where I got
01:17:32confused. Chris, if you got an electric, you would parkcloser to the door because you'd plug in, youknow? I'm going to just play Andy'spart here and say that. I felt like I felt like I hadto. But when it's Fury Road Time, who's moreready, you know?Gozellee, baby, yeah.Old Fry's on King's Landing, and
01:17:48Amand answers the call.Yeah. He goes up there withVagar. It looked for a second.I had to watch this twice.It looked like they were headed for each other,but I think at this point,Ulf's actually heading back towards Dragonstoneand Amon's chasing him.
01:18:05Amon, one eye, but apparently a very good one,seems to spot the amassing dragons on Dragonstone.Am I right by assuming that?Yeah, and then he did enhance, enhance,and saw the look on Renair's face,and was like, not today, Faker.Yeah.I think what's interesting,
01:18:22I don't think this is right,but for one split second,and I had the thought of, like, did Rainira do this?Did Reneer bait a trap with Silver Wing and Ulf?I don't think she would necessarily risk her brand new hard one dragon riderwith baiting that trap.But I did have that thought of, like, did she try to lure Amid overto either take Amon on or just be like, what's up, bitch?
01:18:47But this is something I texted you guys.If that had been the move, I feel like Bayelah would have been out there on Moon,dancer and Adam would have been out there and see smoke and she'd have been like,we got the whole crew.So I think, and she's still sooty.It's like no time has passed.This is like mirror moments later.And so, yeah, I think it's just that Silver Wing like just took off.
01:19:08It was like, let's go for a ride, babe.And but Renira, like, and Hugh on Vermithor's back.We're just sort of there at the, at the shore ready.So Renair's with her dragon.Yes, I, X.Hugh is behind her on Vermithor, who,was the biggest next to Vagar.And then who's flying up in the sky behind them?
01:19:30That's Ulf on Silver Wing.Yeah.Oh, okay.And so Jace is not on his dragon.Jason.Jason's Solgain somewhere.Yeah.Jason's sulking somewhere.
01:19:40Well, Adam and C. Smoke.Yeah.Adam and C. Smoke.Bail on Moon Dancer and theory, Jason Vermax, if they're ever invited, the numbers grow.But it's an interesting.We were talking last week about all these little coalitions that were formed and howEamon made this move to just, like, fire everyone off his small council and stripeveryone away because he's like, I don't need anyone.
01:19:56It's just me and Vagar and we can take onthe world. We're still waiting on Otto to getthere from the world. But Tessarianhas taken wing.Yes. We heard thatDarren's dragon Tissarion has taken wing.Iron Rott said that the high towers are goingto be unstoppable. Iron Rots never
01:20:12been wrong about anything before.But that's a big, I mean, these Darrenteases are just like unbelievable at this point.The volume is astonishing. Just put Darrenin the second season if we're going to mention him this much.But I also fucking love them. And I considerthan the sustenance of lifeuntil we actually meet Darren in season three.
01:20:27So that was nice.But the point was like thatAmon is like, for the first time in a while,is like, oh, just me.A coalition of just me is not going to be enoughagainst what Reneer has done here.A pretty iconic shot to end the episode on.Like usual, we do not see the scenes from next week.
01:20:46And I'm sure that they would be pretty inscrutable anywaybecause it's the finale.I do note just with interest that with this,Mount of Dragons now out,taken in the sea air, with characters.I feel like there's just going to be a lot of dragon acting going forwardand a lot of, like, visible, this person is touching a dragon's head and get right, buckleup, man, because, like...
01:21:11I thought the Vermethor stuff with Rainira especially was, like, and like, the drool onthe teeth, but also the focusing in on just one eye.I think that was, like, the most realistic a dragon face.has ever looked on any screenI've ever watched.I thought it was incredible.So dragons respect otherdragons riders.
01:21:32How do you mean?Well, Reneer can't ridein Vermithor.Oh.Right?She's sort of like summon him.But she can kind of settle him downand whisper sweet.
01:21:42Nothing's to him.Well, he did allow Damonto sing him his lullabylast season as well.And I will note that I thinkher, Rinearra's facial expressionwas like kind of part of the answerto your question, Chris.
01:21:53Like, she hadlike, he came when I called.He let me reach out.It's a sign.Yeah, I did it. Another sign.Only I can do it. Okay. All right.And look. But you know, they come when the dragonkeepers call. Like, they're, yeah, they're in
01:22:06communication with the people around them. That's not the sameas... They're incredibly responsiveanimals. They know where their food comesfrom. Joe,Joe, thank you, Mal.Thank you so much. You guys were amazingdespite everything.And thanks to Jack and everybody
01:22:22behind the scenes for putting us together.here virtually you can listen to Joanna and Mallorydiscuss this episode of House of the Dragonin depth on House of R.You can listen to The Midnight Boys, break down this episode.You can listen to me and Andymisunderstand most of this episode on the watch.You can also watch us.
01:22:41Please subscribe YouTube slash Ringervverse.It's the Ringervverse channel on YouTubeand you can also watch us on Spotify.So thank you so much for checking us out.We will be back.We will be live as live can be next Sunday.In the studio, all things being equal, after the finale of House of the Dragon season,two, can't wait to see you all there.
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