House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

They're not Rhaenyra's newest dragonriders, but Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin are back to break down the seventh episode of 'House of the Dragon'! Daemon is getting some pushback, Alicent is going camping, Jace is unhappy, and so much more for our trio of lords to get through. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin Production: Jack Wilson, Felipe Guilhermino, Chris Wohlers, Kevin Cureghian, Bobby Gibbons, Jonathan Frias, Ryan Todd, Tony Perry, Cory McConnell, John Richter, Aleya Zenieris, Arjuna Ramgopal, Steve Ahlman, Jomi Adeniran, Abreanna Corrales, and Yvonne Wang Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are here to break down the red sewing. Episode 7 of the second season of House of the Dragon.

I'm Chris Ryan. I am joined by Ringer, senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, and Agon's occupational therapist playing her flu game. It's Valerie Rubin. I think I might be Agonne in this situation. I think you might be. Whaling and moaning and attempting. Oh, boy.

Great question. Guys, we are coming to our viewers. We are virtual this week. The novel coronavirus struck down the house of our... The house of the watch, still strong. Don't know what that means, you know? We're just out here. We're enjoying public events, but not you guys.

I'm really sorry that you are under the weather. But thank you so much for doing the show. I'm sure all of our viewers and listeners, appreciate your commitment to George R.A. Martin. Thank you to the whole team for like setting us up with camera. at home and everything that's going into making it so that we can do this, just not on our super cool set that we've got to do it all season. Yes.

And, you know, like Oscar, Tully said, hope to begin well and go on from there. You know, we'll see. We're really going to try. We're really going to try. So a little bit of a different format since we're not in person this week. We're just going to go through the episode that you just watched scene by scene. So hopefully that, is enjoyable for everybody.

I think it's a fun exercise for us. Usually we have like these sort of big picture conversations. We have my recap. But this time around we thought, given the amount of dragons, we saw everything that happened and in the circumstances in which we were recording, we were just going to go back

through the episode of the Red Sowing scene by scene. My guy, David Hancock, is back behind the computer on final draft, dialing up the script for this one. I was very happy to see his name in the credits. Joe, why don't we start with you? obviously what would be the biggest headline from this episode?

I think from the start where we see Adam on the beach with Seasmoke to the end where we see Ulf, you know, flying like a maniac over Kings Landing. This is that like getting a scent that Gwain Heightower was talking about early in the season about Kristen Cole. But here we go. We've got three new dragon riders. And it's this idea

that we brought up last week a bit. We were talking about Adam Seas Smoke of like, what does that do? The Targary legacy. Jase is really, this is his favorite new topic. What are we doing the Targaryen legacy if Ulf the White

can ride a dragon over Kings Landing, you know? Right, right. Now, were you also kind of feeling that like all the questions that these dragons asked, not literally,

but like their presence asked? I was also feeling the questions that the dragons literally asked. I felt that Verbathor was speaking directly to me as I knew I would when he,

the Broad's Fury, arrived at last. Yeah, the sewing of the seeds. This is one of my most anticipated events from fire and blood rendered on the screen at last, separating the atom and see smoke claiming so that we got

that last week. And that allowed for the idea, right, the light bulb that would then create yet another fracture. We've been tracking these fractures and rifts inside of the teams. Is this what we want to do? Do we want to cast this wide net? Do we want to make it team bastards?

I thought it was like a smart structure for this backstretch of the season and it didn't ultimately like diminish the theatrical scale and scope of what we got in this episode with Verbathor and Silver Wing, which I thought was awesome. I really can't wait to talk about it. Okay, let's get into the first scene here. Obviously, it's a big one because last episode ended, I guess with a little bit of a cliffhanger,

although that cliffhanger was mended by the scenes from next week of whether or not it was in fact Adam who was going to be on Sea Smoke. We find out that it is. Reneer goes to meet him on the beach. And I think initially she's got a lot of hesitation about like who is this guy?

What are his intentions? Does he intend to serve me or is he now just like a lucky dragon rider independent free agent? Joe, what did you make of their scene together? I thought Emma particularly was really good in this scene. Yeah, the tension in there, the way that the dragons are talking

to each other, or talking at the various humans there, the framing of it were on an actual beach somewhere, like I thought it looked incredible. Dragon in full daylight on a setting that looks super, like, incredibly natural. I just thought was really amazing.

I do. I think Emma's tension and then when Reneer has that flip right at the end and says, you've done something I fear it impossible and I am glad of it. And there's like this warmth. in her, in that character, I just, I thought that was extraordinary. I thought Clinton Liberty is doing such a great job with Adam, like, so background all season

and then just, like, has turned himself into a little social media star, and I love that for him. And then, like, you know, I'm just, like, really invested in, in Adam's story right now. I thought it was fascinating that he doesn't out Corliss. He had every opportunity to, and he doesn't. And that's really interesting to me Because of the two of them, Alan and Adam, he seems to have the most resentment towards Corley So what has been sort of, you know, beat into him

by either his mom or Corlis himself or whatever that he's like so scared even now, even as he's taken to Dragonstone, he gets a really nice new fit by the end of the episode and even so he's keeping his parentage a secret. Like, that's a really fascinating aspect to me. Mal, I was really struck with, by the end of this episode, we are zigging and zagging a little bit around here.

But I wanted to ask you, you know, did you see a consistent trait between Adam, Hugh, and Ulf? Because I was trying to figure one out. Like, what is it that the dragons basically are recognizing in these guys? And is it there sometimes, like, self-aggrandizing in the case of Ulf? But, you know, is it consistent? across the three of them, they all want to be part of something bigger than they are? Well, I think that one of the passages we've cited and quoted the most is that like, you know,

the caprice of dragons who can know the mind of such a beast. And so I'd say that the like blanket context and understanding we have is that there is something inexplicable and particular. And like, you can call it blood or magic or blood magic or any number of other things. is Seasmoke, we talked about this a little bit last week, sensing that Adam, his new writer, has the same father, Corliss, as his prior writer, Lainor. Is he responding to the fact that Adam is a character, since we met him at the beginning of the season in the second episode, he's like talking to Alan about how Alan isn't seizing opportunity, right?

Another opportunity to distinguish yourself, right? If I had such a chance, I would leap at it. We heard them say similar things last episode, right? He so belittle your great opportunity. Maybe he is responding to that. boldness. Maybe Vermethor is responding to the boldness of Hugh calling out to him and saying, come on. I mean, Ulf is like boasting all his life. And then in the moment of coming to account, he's like, my leg, though, the injury never really healed. Otherwise, I'd be happy to be there.

And when he gets knocked over the edge down to the dragon mind, he's just like scurries his way into stomping on a clutch of eggs. You know, so I think it's like, it's impossible to say, that's part of what's interesting about it. That's part of the mystery. You know, from Reneira to Corlis, Jace Masaria, characters across the entire episode are really interrogating the question of how in terms of the blood? Like, Renair is asking Adam, do you have Targaryen blood anywhere in your family? And I was also struck by what Joe noted, like,

it was interesting to be that he didn't say, Corliss is my father. That wouldn't answer the Targaryen part. But the fact that he's just like, we're not the sort of family that keeps animals, you know? And then Coralus going to to Allen later and saying, this is like, as far as we can understand it, the closest he's ever come to acknowledging directly to him, I am your father. He's like,

I didn't really know much about your mother's backstory. Any shit? There's some dragon lord blood there. You know? So they're on this same fact-finding mission. But the other thing about Adam that I think was really striking here, and this is more of a link to Renira than to the other two riders. But it comes to mind when you ask that question, Chris,

is that his response when Renera was like, what's going on here? What do you want? How did this happen? He said, if the gods call me to greater things, who am I to refuse them? And this, that evolution that you're citing in Renira across this scene and that question we had of how would Reneer respond, we move quickly, and I want to talk about this as we hit other Reneer scenes later where Reneer will actually voice this. We move quickly from what the fuck into acceptance into my mission is ordained by the gods. And that is a dangerous place to find a character.

So I'm so glad you brought that up. I loved it. had mental screenshots of Reneer's face when she finally recognizes Adam not as a threat, but as an ally or as a subject at the end of this first beach scene. And she has like this kind of beatific, like, maybe things are going to be all right after all. And then the last shot is Reneira with ash smudged on her face

looking like she's ready to kill people. Finally. Now, I don't, I'm not advocating for that, but this transformation that she goes through the sacrifice of dozens of small folk who she's brought in, recruited and is just essentially like,

you guys are cannon fodder and if one of you rises to the top, that's great for me. Otherwise, I don't really care. There's no hoses here for you. You know, we're not, there's no fire extinguisher. There's no mercy.

You guys can either become legends or die. And, yeah. Her face at the end of this episode is definitely like, she's different than she is in the beginning of the episode. And it's similar to the face we saw her,

close out season one with. That was the like, Rainer is about to fuck some shit up face and then they're like in seven episodes. Like, we got some stuff to do and then we'll get there. But I think I love what Mallory, what you both are underlining this idea

of like, Renair needs justification for what she's doing, right? For the blood that's on her hands. And she has searched for it in prophecy. She has searched for it in advice from other people. What should do, give me counsel, what should I do?

And now she's got it in this nebulous idea that the gods are approving of her mission. And that, to Mallory's point about the danger of that, that you can shape into anything you want to shape it. Anything can be a sign or a portend if you want it to be. And so it's just like, it's a really fascinating place for her to be in. I think it's interesting that you're looking for a link between Hugh and Ulf and Adam as dragon writers. and I think actually

what's interesting about the various Targaryen dragon writers and these dragon writers is like they're all of different personalities and the dragons are attracted to different aspects in their personalities, obviously. And what's so fascinating about a dragon like Seas Smoke or Vermethore or Silver Wing is they've all had previous riders they might be attracted to a completely different

kind of personality. It's not like they always go after someone who's bellicose or they always go after someone who is peaceful or something like that, because you can have a dragon like Belaire in the Black Dread, have Egon the Conqueror as a writer, and then also King Viseras, who doesn't even really want to ride a dragon.

You know, so it's like, it's like you're meeting the dragon where they are in their time of life. And I had a little chat with our friend, Paula Fairfield, who does the dragon noises about, you know, Verma Thor and Silver Wing. And she was like, oh, I envision, So whenever Paula talks about the dragons, she wants to make it really clear that she's not speaking

like necessarily officially what the showrunners think. This is what she thinks when she makes her interesting little dragon sounds at home. And that sounds belittling. Paula's a master of what she does. But she called Silver Wing this like grand damn, this like, you know, this older lady, this woman who has like been through stuff.

And then we do have, I just want to give a tiny preview. We have an interview with Tom Bennett who plays Ulf on House of Art next week. And, you know, he's like with his natural cockney accent, he's like, oh, yeah, she likes a bit of rough. Like, you know what I mean? He's just sort of like, she's this grand old lady. And here's this bumbling cockney, you know, charming guy who has stumbled into her cave. And she's like, you know, it's Dame Maggie Smith and whoever on her back. And she's just like, let's go.

You know, I'm going to have the time of my life. And that's a very different writer than who she had before. And that's just an interesting thing about dragons, you know. Did Tom Bennett talk about heat? Um, no, but he did confirm that it was not milk of the poppy. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, no, I got excited there for a second. The reason why I was smirking throughout the entire time you were talking to was because

I was imagining C-Smoke having like a rebound boyfriend. Just like, I'm not serious about this guy, but, you know, it's fun. We're just going out. Yeah, exactly. You're going to hit the bars. He kind of looks like you. Yeah. But, you know, he's going to stay.

So, yeah. Mal, I, you know, Raneira and Allison are basically like their friendship, their relationship, their pairing is like the framing device that's guiding the show in a lot of ways. And I thought it was interesting that there's almost the zero-something happening. Like one of them is alone. The other one is surrounded in this case by dragons. And it can never be the same at the same time. Like there's always this seesaw seemingly going on in this episode after Reneer has talked a lot about the isolation of her position and really only have. having Masaria to talk to.

Now we're kind of in a place where Allison only really has the maister to talk to as she gets a riot hand bandaged. And I was kind of intrigued, but also mystified about what her journey was this episode as she goes off to the Kingswood, right? To just Ophelia it up. For some air. Yeah. Take the air.

Take the world's biggest bath. There's a move over, big crossbow, big bathtub has arrived. Yes. In the form of a natural body of water. Love that for Allison, honestly. I hope she brought her washcloths. This, I love that observation, Chris, about that link, but also kind of seesaw. Because I think even in that seesaw, we still have the link.

Alicent is just continuing to live Reneira's life on delay. Like, this is exactly what we saw Renira do in the third episode of the first season during the hunt when she got on her horse and went off and Kristen followed. And it was one person, Renira, one person, Allison, and one, right? One guard, your Sworn Shield. Like, that's it. Sir Rickard is here with Allison. Kristen was there with Renira.

And you have the air and the wilderness and the inescapable belief that nobody gives a shit where you are. Right? Because what was the thing that Renira said in the carriage on the car. the way to that hunt. Like, no one's here for me. And that's the same sensation that Allison is bringing into this escape, what she says to Orwell, like, all my life, I have endeavored to serve both my house in the realm, and somehow none of it matters. We are cast aside or hated. But we talked a lot about, like, this question of what was going to be next for Alicent, because her entire life has been lived, and she has, the evolution has been that she has increasingly stare this in the face

and resented it and called it out, called out Otto, called out other characters for this reality. But her life has been lived for duty through duty. That was sometimes the justification. That was the mooring. And so if everybody in your life, right, your husband's dead. One of your son's the one you had like a very disturbing relationship with it, a harrowing, do nothing. What could you contribute fight with before he was burned into a pile of goo? Though, you know, he's upright-ish.

Good for him. That goo is mobile. Doing great. It seems like he's in no pain at all and everything will be fine. Agon's going to be playing the masters next year, man. That's going to be fine. Rapid recovery. My God, blood of the dragon, indeed.

Her other son fired her from the small council, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, on the list goes. She's looking for purpose, just as Renera was. And so to see her out there in the woods, in the water, like, that connection to the Renera felt so palpable. I will be honest that there was like, while I find that thematically compelling, Allison, like looking for a foothold in the world, there was a little part of me that was like, is Allison trying to figure out what to do, or is the show trying to figure out what to do with Allison?

Well, I had a- That was definitely there, I think. I know I pretended like I didn't have any big picture questions, but I do. And this is another little moment where it's like, is the history aspect of this text not quite matching up with like the storytelling needs of a television show, right?

they don't necessarily know, okay, like, Allison gets sidelined, but what does she do when she's sidelined, and how is what she's doing while she's sidelined, attaching itself to all the other characters, if not actually, then thematically. So they have to kind of make stuff up like she goes to a pond, right?

Yeah, I love that. They're like, what in the writer's room, someone's just like, what if she goes to a pond? Yeah, I think we're going to have to, because this is a book departure, nobody bothered to jot down Allison's camping trip in the histories. Well, it'll be weird if Mushroom is,

Like, I was also there, and she did go swimming. That's his whole thing. That's his whole thing to be like, I was there. And then the parenthetical mushroom who was not there. But yeah, so I think we're going to have to see how that plays out. Do they need her somewhere for whatever they want, or not somewhere for whatever they want to do in the finale? Mallory and I, like, don't know because we're not quite sure what they're doing here.

But, like, I think that is doubly true for Renira. I don't mean to move around on your timeline. Not at all. Not at all. But like, the scene with Jace, which I thought was actually like really, really well done, where Jace, the idea to get other dragon writers is Jace's initially. And it is Jace's in the book. But in the book, Jase is like, let's do, let's go the whole thing.

Yeah. All dragon seeds welcome, right? And here he's having this objection to the bastards because of his own, you know. Bastardly. nebulous claim, you know, and he was like, the fact that he is a dragon rider has been his proof that he is eligible to be an heir, that he has Targaryen blood in him, because he's got the dark hair of his father. Did you know, did you think we would have dark hair? Like, what a, what a chilling moment. I thought that was so good.

But so they needed, they needed Jace to be out on this part two of the sewing so that Reneer had, again, something to do, which is something all season they've been trying to figure out for Reneer. because, as we've been saying again and again on Talk the Thrones, Reneer is off the board at this point in the story, but they're not going to put Emma Darcy in a room and not check in with them. And so it's like, so then this becomes Reneira's project. And I think they did a really elegant job of making Jace's objection feel organic to that character and organic to that relationship. And I thought they did a really good job, you know, again, to Mallory's initial point of like,

Reneer's perhaps troubling self-belief as it burgeons in this episode. But all of that is part of this idea that you keep coming back to because you host this podcast called The Watch that I hope that people listen to. But you're a TV guy, you're a book guy,

but you're a TV guy and you're like, the mechanics of television do not allow you to take your main characters and stick them in a pond for too long, you know? Or have him only chatting with their one friend while everything else is happening. Right. It's a tough beat.

Yeah, I admire the way they're essentially trying to create action and tension in conversations because that's really the only thing that these people are doing right now. And that is probably going to be something that this show faces as even the major conflicts come because only so many people can ride dragons, right?

I thought that that kind of really came to life in this next scene, the Jasper and Laris' conversation about Seas Smoke. So these are two, I wouldn't call them tertiary characters. We've seen obviously a lot and we have a ton of time for Laris on this show. But this was very crowny to me. Was this idea of a rumor that could actually be of political value. But these two guys are like, I don't know if I want to hold this football for very long.

So why don't you give it to him? No, why don't you give it to him? It would be good for you if you told him. No, I think it's just like, why don't you tell him? and they go back and forth on this. It's a great conversation. It's an interesting, interesting move by Laris, who I think is the character

who's been allowed the most ambiguity in this show so far. Joe, what did you think of this whole moment? I thought it was beautifully written, but it was also like interestingly played also while this whole conversation is happening. Amon is sending a bunch of guys to the wall personally. One of the guys, Marty and Eddie.

Marty and Eddie. The last of Agon's Bros. Bye. I love this I don't know am I allowed to say that a lyric scene is again

my favorite scene of an episode I love this for We can only be who we are I do you I support you I'm happy to keep Jasper in the tertiary character

Slap but Laris is like kind of the main character energy for me right now and I think that exactly what you identified this sort of like no I'll go less

no I'll go less like you like it would benefit you don't you think like I just thought all of the undertones of that conversation and all of the looks that they were giving each other and all of the smiles

and then the staging of it, I thought was just impeccable especially since like that staging is something that Mallory and I think about a lot because it's one of Mallory's favorite scenes from season one is Laris's father, Lionel Strong, and Vassaris watching

the boys sparred down in the yard from a very similar vantage point and so for him to be there. It will certainly form a lifelong bond. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah, and here's Aymond sending his brother's buddies to the wall. But yeah, that just like the framing over their shoulders of just this like blonde figure pacing back and forth and ranting in the courtyard, I just thought was like absolutely

perfection. I love this. I mean, I think the sewing as a sort of visual spectacle and character-based spectacle was extraordinary. But I think I just continued to latch mostly to palace intrigue. and Laris is my guy for that. So a couple of things here, Mal, jump on whichever one you want.

One, I just thought on a filmmaking level that was really cool how in this episode a couple of times, the camera connected different parts of our world. So it would basically be like, in this situation, you got the balcony scene of them looking down onto the courtyard and seeing things happening in the courtyard

while they're having a conversation about things happening beyond the palace walls, right? Another amazing moment was out of the tunnel and into the Weirwood Garden in Heron Hall. That was really cool. So I love the idea that this world has got connective tissue that we can see. But for me, it's like,

and this comes up a lot towards the end of the episode, the biggest thing for me was like, who is the source of this rumor that Jasper has? A stable guy, right? And he gets it from, what, a cook or a sailor? Ironrod, Squire, Stablehand, his father, fisherman. It's the small folk game of telephone, right?

And we get another version of that when we watch Masaria's message make its way via Allen and the fishing the fishing boat network that he has set up all the way to Alinda to start actually recruiting the scene. Tinker Taylor Soldier Massaria.

Yeah, the episode telling us specifically showing us what the network of information is on each side, I thought was really, really cool. I loved that. And like you pair the specificity of that of Iron Rod running through the chain of custody of information there, us seeing that later. That's very particular. It's very precise with the

opakness of what is driving Ironrod and Laris in a scene like that. How much is it fear, right, of how Aman might respond, how much of it is, maybe they don't want him to are they considering maybe it's better if he doesn't have that information? Yeah. Right? They want him to be backfooted because of what he did in the last episode. Like, we haven't seen a moment like that previously. We saw it after Amon shamed Laris

and we know that Laris is there with Egon like, come on, buddy, let's go, right? So the sequencing of when we're getting kind of these insights into how people are behaving and the pairing of the kind of like the subtle with the specific I thought was really cool. Okay, I'm gonna, oh go ahead Joe. Well, on the small folk question,

I think it's really interesting because like Condal said pre-season premiere like, you know, we're really gonna focus on the small folk this season. This is really an emphasis for us this season. It was the name of an episode. We got a small folk named episode. We've been seeing riots.

We've been in the streets of Kings Landing. Just one chicken for the pie. But what's interesting for those of us who are like book readers or wiki perusers is like a lot of that felt like cover for the fact that we knew that Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Adam were all going to be dragon writers by the end of the season. that they're like, we're spending time with these small folk, not just because we want to give you an insight into the tavern or, you know, home life with a guy called Hugh, but like we need you to know these characters so that when we light them on fire or near as later on, you care

whether or not we do. But it wasn't just that. Obviously, they've done a lot of other work around it, and I think Mal calling out the montage, the Dragonsteed recruiting. montage. I don't know that we've gotten like a montage this season on House of the Dragon. I loved it. I loved it.

And also there's like anti, there's like a quick shot of anti-dragon propaganda that has been like cropping up in all the trailers and I just thought it was interesting that that was just part of this montage. I don't know if that's another Masaria thing or if that is generally like organically coming from the people

who are pissed off about you know, the various dragon antics. We'll see. But like I think this small folk question and how it's been deployed and how they balance that with, you know, trying to sneak some dragon riders under the noses of people who didn't know what was coming. It was an interesting balancing act for them this season. I guess in a different world, we would have gotten a three-episode arc for the guy who got

lit on fire. Silver Dennis. How do you guys know his name is Silver Dennis? Silver Dennis. First of all, he was cast, but that's a character from the book. His approach is described and harrowing detail in the text. I have a question about what Joe was just sketching out about the time with the small folk

that I'm interested to ask you as a show lens first person, Christopher. Where does you land on the pros and cons of that, of having spent so much time with the eventual writers? Because on the one hand, we know them and we are more invested in them than if they had just appeared to us in real time at the sewing, which is what happens in the book.

You're like, oh, here are these new writers. But did it sap any of the suspense of the sewing? Again, a sequence I loved and found riveting because you're like, I have to assume that I know who's gonna pair here. It's thrown, so like, O'F and Hugh could certainly be killed spectacularly. But it felt, did it feel improbable to you

that anyone else would emerge from that scene as a writer? But I did not. Well, I wanted one more, like, red hair, like, to your point about Silver Dennis. Like, I would have loved one more, one character in that scene who we have spent equal time with, who we know.

It didn't work out for them. Because Stefan Darklin has sort of serves that purpose, though he's serving another narrative purpose. but like he sort of serves that purpose in the previous episode. There are other potentials for that in the book that they opted not to go with, which I think is interesting. But like, yeah, I was just sort of like, okay, it's a bunch of red shirts and Hugh and

Ulf, who we know, and they're the guys to get the dragon. I've been thinking about that all season. I'm like, where is my like, maybe this person too, maybe this blonde lady I've never met before is going to make it. No. Actually, we haven't mentioned this because we've been my fault jumping around a little bit. But like, I think one of the things. the most chilling things of that whole sewing

is in the books, it's so voluntary. It's like there's a huge lure. You'll become a knight. You will get lands. Your sons will be unobled. Your daughters will be married off to lords. Like, if you come, come right to dragon. All presented again, as you noted earlier, as Jace's offer. Yeah, which is just a fascinating update.

But like, come, you know, come to us and get all of this bounty. Reneer does, in her speech, say, like, you know, I would not describe it as the warmest pitch. No, but she's just sort of like, you've decided this, maybe this will change your life, you've decided to do this. All that still felt like you can leave if you don't want to, but then the guards line up behind them

and physically hold them back as they try to run. And that felt really wild. I will also say that she even says, even if this works out, your life as you know it is over. Now, maybe some of those people are like, that's great. I mean, she even says some of that,

for some of you that may be good, But either way, you're not going to go back to your old life, even if you do not get lit on fire and eat. So that was very interesting. To answer your question, Mal, I am a friend of the small folk. But it was, I think, obviously, quite telegraphed. They were spending time with the people who were going to be selected. And I would not describe Hughes specifically as, like, my favorite. favorite storyline in all of television history.

So, like, I was ready for him to become whatever he was going to become. You know, like, it was... But I think it's, like, the little differences between these guys and, like, the little differences in their outlooks, their psychologies is fascinating. And I think they did a good job painting that picture for those guys. Did they kill his daughter off screen? On screen, yeah. What happened there?

He was like, we lost our girl. And I was like, we did. It was going to save her. It's like, oh, she did. And I don't mean to sound morbid. look dead when they were holding her. She was like gray. We could keep going through the episode chronologically.

And like I said, we don't have to belabor every one of these scenes. I think that the Adam and Reneer get back to Dragonstone and the council react scene. We've talked a little bit about... Iconic stuff from Keltygar. Just day drinking after getting slapped and embarrassed. That's what I was going to say. That guy did not learn his lesson, so he's still going to shoot his mouth off because she's not around. I'm just going to remind people something we talked about earlier this season,

which is that house Keltygar are an old Valerian family. It's just like sometimes you get dragons and sometimes you get crabs and the Celtigar's got crabs and that must suck for them. So, not that kind of crabs. I mean, maybe also though.

Maybe also them. We get Corliss's well done to Adam in both of his interactions with Adam and Alan in this episode a slight thawing of paternal... It's still pretty chilly. Yeah, I mean, I think he's playing his cards close to his vest.

He's a recent one. That's pretty, well done to add. And I found quite cold. I thought the, you should be a son to a father. That's about as good as a guess. Come on. Come on. I thought there was more.

He didn't strike out three times. Well, I mean, you were an all metro catcher, so I don't think you ever struck out three times. Like just a pure line drive into the gaps guy. I always knew where there. Always. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Then we get to, honestly, for this episode, best of times, worst of times. Best of times is Oscar and Damon, just absolutely crushing each other, mostly Oscar crushing Damon, an incredible negotiation about what it's going to take to get the men of the Riverlands to join Renera's cause, which they historically, and I think even psychologically,

are like, we got to do this, but not for this prick. And that's the problem is because Damon has committed war crimes or at least sanction them during his weird stay at Heron Hall. He's still managed to do this. And there's a lot of mess-on-isle-riverlands. to clean up. And Oscar, in his teenage wisdom, comes up with the solution. And Damon eventually goes for it, which is essentially to execute the guy who he had been, Willem Blackwood, is that right? Yeah. The guy who had been his agent of chaos out there and really kind of started the ball rolling

with all this stuff. Oscar's like, you got all of us, but he has to go and you have to give him the justice. So I thought that scene was amazing. And I have to say this is one Vassar's seen too many for me. the follow-up scene of dreaming of Patty Conceding and this crown and Damon only being able to sort of manifest any sort of psychological depth in this dream state. I love Matt Smith. I want him out of this place in this show and I want him to be like in the mix more. I thought he was done after last week.

You said he was done, Joe. I thought he was done. I really thought that. And honestly, if this scene had been in last week's episode, I wouldn't have been sort of like as crusty as, I kind of feel about it. But like, it's a great scene in terms of like this idea of, you know, ruling is really hard. That's the lesson that Damon is learning here is like causing chaos is fun and fighting is fun and winning is fun. But being a ruler, it sucks. And maybe that's what Damon walks out of Haran Hall being like, Reneer, you're welcome to it.

I don't fucking want it, actually. I actually don't. if I have to do this. I was a little surprised that Damon felt so, like, morally conflicted about chopping Willem's head off because even though, like, we at home can be like, this is morally repugnant, you ask this guy to do this thing and you're talking of his head. For Damon, it feels like just another Tuesday betrayal. Like, why wouldn't you do it?

Couldn't have been quicker to cut off Vaman's head in the throne room last season. I did want to ask you, I know you're just, you're so reeling after, like, learning about and losing your friend Silver Dennis. But I want to ask you how you feel about the fact that one of the River Lords in this scene is named Peter Piper. How do you feel about that? It's news to me. Honestly, this is breaking news.

I'm just receiving this. Sometimes I feel like George just ran out of energy at the end of a day, and his name is Peter Piper. This is George at his best. This is what he's doing for us. Yeah, Mr. George. Truly, truly. And then he taps the text at the end and says,

mischief manage and walks away. I, yeah, I agreed on the, like, would Damon be conflict? I kind of feel like Damon would just walk over, chop off his head, and move about his day. I guess maybe we're supposed to say, oh, this does show that he has made some sort of, like, moral progress after all of his,

to quote my pal and colleague and co-host and partner, Joanna Robinson, ghost therapy. I thought that, when he saw that, I had the same, oh, boy, we're not done with the dream's reaction, but I thought, like, in terms of just that final message, I agree, if it had been last week, then it feels more contained. But the final kind of offer, it's like,

are you going to take it or not as the final test in the trial feels appropriate? Vesaris, like, it took me back to Vassaris when he named Reneera Air, which is, of course, intercut with Damon flight, right? Has he's been cast out. He gets on Karexes. He flies away. you know, Viserra saying to Roneira, like, a dragon saddle is one thing,

but the Iron Throne is the most dangerous seat in the realm. And for every character, like, there's a lesson in that reality in this episode, in some form. I mean, we're going to get to when Aem End has to... Basically, Amon, at the end of the episode, just has to pull a Thanos, fine,

I'll do it myself. Like, you're a regent, but you're the rider. Like, it's all on you now. Your advisors aren't even telling you what's going on. So everybody has their version of, like, what does that danger look like? and for Damon to have to confront like this like child is going to dunk on me

for eons on end and shame me and I'm going to tell him to watch his tongue and he's going to say do you want my army or not and I'm going to have to fucking take it. That was the hard of me that was like that's what I was and there's a part of me that was like I think he just he's like you're using me as your puppet and I don't like being like ordered around

you know that felt like it was at play there too. That makes sense to me that it's not like if it were his idea to cut Will of Blackwoods head off, he's like, no prob, a Tuesday. But it's like him having to swallow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's one thing that I think is bubbling under the surface here, though. It'll be interesting to see if it comes up, if and when Damon and Reneer are reunited.

Is that it does seem like a couple of people have mentioned you've done some incredibly bad stuff and done it in Reneer's name. Like, they keep mentioning the fact that, like, hey, by the way, like, you're the king consort. and like you're doing this and when this stuff goes out on the street, it's got her name on it. So just keep that in mind. Keep an eye on that. Because I do feel like they've mentioned it two or three times.

And whenever they next have their big blowout fight, which is inevitable when Roneira's like, so where have you been, you know? I do think there's going to be something too. Like, by the way, I've made a bit of a mess of the riverlands. Another mess for you to, another mess for you to come clean up for me, Reneer. Thanks so much. Basically.

I got mud everywhere. I'm so sorry. Let's get into Egon, the long walk. And I got to tell you guys something. It was a pretty short walk before he fell over and cried. Does that feel, did you experience that this week, Mallory? This has been me all week. This is my journey right now. This is me after exactly one kettlebell workout.

I have to say, though, he looked a lot better than I thought he was going to. I agree. I agree. Is that Tom Glenn Carney stuff where it's like, this guy's just too cute? We got to get them up and around. Like, we can't, we can't really melt this dude's face off. Well, it's like in Game of Thrones, Tyrion is supposed to get, like, his entire nose chopped off at the blackwater. Yeah, and it's like, no, let's just give him a cool scar.

They're like, Peter Denglage is too good looking. We got to keep the whole face intact. Yeah, so I do think. And also, like, maybe they're doing the prosthetics department of favor where they're like, you don't have to imply, like, the full face when we're doing egg on. I think you guys are both being quite generous here while his burns are healing. maybe a little ahead of our anticipated schedule. He definitely still looks like Bilbo

when we see him and he's finally old. He's aged 60 years in a week and like we didn't get a chance to see his chest. Also, I couldn't tell if his cane broke or he rebroke his leg. The sound was trouble. Yeah, it was hard to distinguish. The thing that I want to talk about the most here

is Laris coming in and talking to the maister, Joe. Laris' major line here is, I fear he won't rest for some time or something to, I'm paraphrasing Laris, but it's essentially like he will not be resting basically for the rest of his life,

so we need to get him in the best shape we possibly can. Why, I get, I think I intuitively understand why he's saying that. What was your read on why he's saying that? Yeah, I have some question marks around it, but I would say one interpretation would just be like, we both know that Amon will kill Agon if he can.

And so we need him as strong, if he's going to survive this, he can't just malinger in the bed. He needs to walk around and do this stuff. I have some other ideas, but I don't think they belong anywhere outside of spoiler section. So, like, that's my main thought. What do you think, Mallory?

Yeah, I think he, he, there was a, it will be long before he may rest again. There's, like, the clock feels very present there. Like, I just, I love how you're describing this, Chris, best shape of his life as, like, a training camp. I know. Like, and then the question is like, what? Yeah, but, you know, we talked about this when we were discussing episode six and, like, the many things that play with Laris depriving Egan of the milk of the poppy and how, like,

he needs his focus, he needs him to be sharp for a second just so he could talk to him and they can have that conversation. But also this, like, budding awareness of kind of, of how, you know, you know, Amon is operating through Orwild to, like, keep Agon adult. So, you know, and... Orwhile, man. It's taking orders. Laris is given them orders. Amon's given him orders.

Alicant is like, what do I do with my life? Like, he is really in the thick of it. So that's interesting to see his increased stature in the story at this point. I thought that there was something interesting going on there because, technically speaking, or chart-wise, I'm sure Laris has some control over what Orwell. does, but it seemed like they were like, we're simpatico.

Like he's, Orwell seems to be like, I agree with you. Like, his guy's in danger. I would just say like, Orwell, like, yes, he's the grandmaister. He has like this higher calling, but like everybody else on that council, he's a political animal. They're always making calculations all of them

at every moment in time. Thought that the line about like, I'll teach you how to walk with a limp, basically is, was very interesting, both in terms of like, seem genuinely empathetic, but also like I'm going to remind you how disfigured you are in

this motivational speech. So very... This is the best. This is why Lyris is the man. He's always saying like nine different things. We have the Corlis talking to Allen's scene, which I really only noted for Allen's enthusiasm for C and Salt.

That's great to know what you love in life and to pursue it. But for Corliss, like what did Bayless say to him? I know. And he was like, you know, granddaughter, I would make you my errand. She said, I'm blood and fire. Drift Mark must pass to Salt and Sea.

So he's been like waiting for someone to embrace his legacy, salt and see what his house and his name stands for. I thought there was a lot of nuance in the lead up to that because he is like, you know, again, he asked about his mother's history. I thought that was such a tough look for our guy, Corlis Valerian, to be like, I fathered two bastards on your mother and didn't really know anything about her.

Brutal, genuinely brutal. I was on tour with Motley crew in the 80s. Right. Also, but this is what Steve said to us when we interviewed him about this. He's like, it's one thing to have one bastard. Yeah. One illegitimate kid with a woman you don't really know. To have two over the course of several years.

That's an affair that lasts us several years. And he doesn't know anything about her. Wild stuff. But then the fact that he was basically like, so this writer that everybody's talking about, it's your brother. Our people are of old Valeria, but we're no dragon lords.

I didn't know much about your mother's heritage. Maybe there's something on her side that allowed for this. Do you think you should go try? And that simultaneously... And then his like, that little like smile when Alan said, I'm saw and see. Like the, on the one hand, you know there's a part of Corlis that's like,

my, I haven't acknowledged them out loud to other people as my bastards yet, as my sons. You know there's a part of him that's like, wow, Adam, my kid claimed a dragon. Holy fuck. That's awesome. Right? That's power.

That's great. That's might. And so there's a little bit of that behind the Allen push, but this felt like a win-win. Either Allen says yes and goes to try to claim a dragon and he has two dragon riders in his line, or Alan does this and says, no, actually, like, it's the fleet for me.

That's what he's wanted somebody to say to him. Yeah, my life, my love, my lady is the sea. Yeah, he doesn't honestly they just go full guardians too. Has only left the docs twice by my account in this season of television. Once when he's like walking back with Adam to like get stew and then once on his little spy mission in this episode.

So that guy is really about that life. Well, yeah, this is something that Mal and I talked a bit about on House of Ard with Alan and Adam and with Hugh and with Ulf. But I have fewer complaints about Ulf just because I really like to have Benet, but like all of them were given like one-note characteristics, right? Like Hugh is a guy with a sick kid. Alan All flights to tell stories for beer

You know And Adam is like You know It's all centered around Sort of like one story note Like Adam When Corliss says Well done in a way that

Mallor and I found Chile And you found heartwarming And then Adam's just like alone In that basically I want to have a catch dad But I'm like I'm like who's hanging Adams Adam's brought into Dragonstone

Like And no one He's all alone there And I was like But what do I know about like What do I know about him than he likes to make soup and, you know, gather seafood from, you know, the shore

and talk to his brother about what they're owed. I'm like, did he have friends and like a girl or boyfriend he left behind? Like, does he, like, what is Adam's state of mind here other than giddy excitement, which is very much present? And I'm just like, I just, I want to know more. I want to know more. It reminded me of seeing Gendry, like a bastard

brought into Dragonstone for some rulers, like, end in need. and like, you know, because we know that Adam has this ambition and is excited and, like, bent the knee seemingly gladly and all of that, it mitigates and abates that comparison a little bit, but there is still that, like, sensation, I think, that builds over the course of the episode when we see, like, what Chris was describing earlier and track kind of Renera's face. And I thought the, the, Reneer watching the sewing of the seeds turned into the red sewing, the slaughter, which is so, so harrowing and disturbing. and it's like everybody is a pawn in the great game, ultimately. You're in the great game now. I will say that I didn't really have a lot of notes on Raina at the Erie Gettner. Here's one. And we talked about this one, House Barber, just to get it on the Talk to Thrones record.

Because we actually saw it now. We saw the departing party for the gay abandon. Jane Arryn's saying that she was going to send six men. With four royal family. Four royal children. Storm Cloud the dragon, the eggs. And Raina is such a dereliction of responsibility, duty, and a pledge.

It is astonishing and shocking. When I actually saw them walking out, I was like, what is just deranged? Where are all the people? And what was up with her look to Raina after the fact? Like, as the doors are closing, she's kind of like, what do you think she was trying to communicate there, Joe? it's a great question

I don't have a great answer there's a part of me in trying to make Jane Aaron a slightly more interesting character than she has been so far because she's really cool in the book oh so she's trying to be like ooh she's mysterious like what's she about or maybe she's like is this some sort of like I challenge you to go clean that

dragon is that what's happening here that's me that's me having to read way between the lines and that's probably not what's happening there she's just probably like and I look stoic and goodbye But I would love for there to be an extra agenda for Lady Jane Aaron. Okay, so let's get to the Renera Jace fight.

We talked about this a little bit so we can move through it. I will just say that several times over the course of this season, and I believe even in this episode, especially in this conversation with Jase, the Oppenheimer, we need to show them what true power is so that we can avoid this war and make it like a bloodless conflict thing. She's making that into her, like, that's her platform now.

She says that's all the seeds too, like without bloodshed. We think this is going to happen without bloodshed? Again, that's... Like, she's pretty wrong, literally five seconds later. So, like, she keeps saying this. She seems to ignore the factory

and he's burned up most of an army at Rook's rest. Like, multiple people have been lit on fire during the sewing attempts in the past. And now she's still just like, I have to have all these dragons. We have to have this superiority so that people understand

what, like, this power means, and then I could just take the throne like I'm supposed to, because these guys will understand, like, what the consequences would be. So I thought that was interesting. When you start telling your kids that stuff, Joe, it's like, you believe it. You know, like, you're starting to really believe your own cooking there. I think it's interesting. We skip past it, which is fine. The conversation that she has with Masaria, where I love that too. Yeah, it's like looking under the sheets instead of in the woodpiles. Yeah, a classic direct Georgia-R-Martin quote. But, like, I think that when Masarius is the order.

of things has changed your grace, why not embrace it? And something Amel and I talk about a lot is that in like this great scene that we love from season one, when Rainis challenges Reneira's, not claim, but just saying like they're never going to accept you. You know, it's not the order of things. And Reneer says, when I am queen, I will make a new order. Not the band, but just like, you know, a new approach. And so like the, when she says, let us raise an army of bastards is her like, that's going

to go on the merch, right? Like, that's the, that's the slogan for Renira now. I just think that's, it's something that she's been dreaming of literally, like, since we first met her in season one, this idea of, like, I set the rules. And Renira as, like, a kind and empathetic character has been interesting to know, but this has always been in her. Yeah, it's where it's going. This idea of, I am making the world into where I want it to be.

He shared the dream with me. Yeah. I have a greater responsibility. And then Masaria's like, just tweet, you are a brat. I totally love it. Start wearing green, you got it. I think that the...

I guess that wouldn't work for Reniero. She can't really start wearing green. It's a different shade of green. It's a lime green. Very limited color palettes on offer for the bulk of the characters right now. Stuff. Okay, I think that there's...

The most charitable, like, read, I think we can... have on what you're outlining Joe, the like, so let's be team bastard, right? Let's do it. Is that that could be, you could argue, that that is for Reneera, a version of wear, like, armor.

What we talked about last week. Make your weakness, your strength. People have been saying for nearly a couple decades, like since Jace was born, that your kids, that your heir, that their bastards that are not legitimate. And you've been avoiding it and afraid of it and worry

about how it was going to cut down your claim and lean in. But for Jace, all it is is a threat to the most the most like sacred and personal insecurity and fear that he carries. And it's not like Jason Reneer

have never talked about Harwin Strong. Like in the sixth episode of season one, he flat outside his Harwin Strong, my father, right? He had that very heart-wrenching moment that we'd like to talk about at Lena's funeral in the next episode. Like, I have as much claim to sympathy as they do after Harwin had been burned in the Heron Hall fire.

It's part of why we were so struck when we saw Jason and Bala just openly discuss Harwin in the second episode of this season because like acknowledging this out loud in any way is a dangerous thing for Jason always has been. It's the undermining thing, right, to his entire sense of identity and self. And so from his perspective, I'm interested to see if like it feels like this tracks for everybody watching this episode, like how we go from Jace being the character. two episodes ago to say like, he was the one who issued the,

to guilt us in glory line about the Targaryen propaganda. And then so how does he go here to like, well, not just the hideousness of him saying like they're mongrels, which of course, again, is coming from, he's projecting his own insecurity and fear of what other people think of him, but still brutal, right? How does he go from like, it gets just to gildas and glory

into, well, if anybody can claim a dragon, then what are we? Like, what is House Targaryen? What does it mean to be the blood of the dragon? And I think that actually tracks nicely. I really agree with what Joe said earlier because it feels like the logical, rational starting point of, let's go find the Highborns, the Targs who married into other houses, you know,

is a different thing for him than let's open this up to people who might be able to challenge my claim because other people in the realm might think that they had an equal claim to me because they will also only see me as a bastard. I think one of the things that team Black has going against it is just a real lack of definition of what people are supposed to be doing

because so much of the core of that group of people is made up of people that need to stay alive. So while Kristen is walking into war and Aiman seems to be down to go get Vagar anytime anything pops off. It's like, Reneer is reluctant to put Jace in charge of anything. He kind of freelances that whole thing at the twins in the first place because he's supposed to fly to Heron Hall, isn't he?

He's not supposed to leave at all. stay in his room. Yeah. So she's basically treating him like he's grounded. Bela is like slowly coming into the fold. She's got the cool cloak on in this episode. But like I don't necessarily feel like she's been given a huge mandate of things to do.

It seems like they're kind of like, we're trying to fight a war without actually fighting a war until the very end of this episode where they obviously get like... It's supposed to be Damon, right? Like, Damon is supposed to be the one like... And she's like, Damon, Damon, Damon. And David. Yeah, I'm talking about that.

Yeah. But like, you know, Rehnese and Damon, like, they had those people, those people just, like, either left or died or, you know, Corlis is waiting for them to scrape the final barnacle off the ship. And then he can, like, you know, activate the fleet. Like, it's really interesting to me that idea of can we fight this war without bloodshed? There already has been bloodshed. But can we go forward without bloodshed? the reading up on like reminding myself about what vermithor and silver wing specifically have done in the in the history as dragons of royal targaryens was really an interesting way to think about what going forward could look like because vermouthor is a massive old dragon but like vermithor and silver wing were written by jeharis and al-assane who we met in the very first episode right at the great council that old, old king and his wife,

these were their dragons. And there's just all these stories. Like, Jeharris has this repud... Jeharis the conciliator, right? Concilated. That's what he did. There was no, there was peace he conciliated. But what he often did was just let his dragons intimidate people.

The deterrence. Yes. When there's a great passage where, like, he's pissed off a Barathean, and the Baratheon comes in. He just has Vermithor there eating a bull, and he, like, scratches under his chin. And he's like, we don't have a problem, do we? Like, we're good, right?

And the Baratheans like, yeah, we're good, we're good. Or when they're picking a new, you know, high septon down in Old Town, he and his wife just like right over there on their dragons and Silver Wing just like sits atop the tower, fans the flames of the tower with her wings. And they're like, I guess we'll pick the Pope that you think should be the Pope. I guess that'll be the new Pope. And so it's like, they have worked as deterrence in the past. And this is like, I can understand how Roneira could see that as a possible future.

I just need to fly my dragon somewhere and people will just calm down. They've just never had to do that against other people who had dragons before. Yeah. That Vermethor moment that you're citing is like one of my favorite passages in the book because I think it's, I think like everything else, the histories end up painting somebody with one label and then you see the complexities of it. And so, like, Jeharis the conciliator, Jehires the old king, this idea of the peaceful reign, which is true.

But that doesn't mean there was an anger or conflict or menace or intent behind it. And so, like, why would I need hostages? I have your word. That is all I require. But Grandmester Benefer heard the words he did not speak. Every man and maid and child in the stormlands is my hostage whilst I ride him.

Like, that's intense. I think the thing is that there's no case you could make, you being anyone in the story, that Reneira thinks Amand and Vagar and the other side are going to say, cool. Now, of course, I say that acknowledging that Amon turns around at the end, but that's not the same as saying the throne is yours, here you go. And I don't think Reneer believes that that's possible,

which then connects to this, can we do it without blood? Can we build up enough strength to win the arms race and avoid bloodshed, then connects to this other thing we're tracking throughout the episode, this idea of like the righteous, ordained path. because what she says to Jace, who was, like, weeping, and just asked whether he's right to do it or not, is a son staring at his mother, crying and saying to her, don't do this.

Like, don't do this to me, right? And she says to him, I cannot gain say that which the gods have laid before me. Now, Renira. She also says right before that she's like, I mislike all of this, which is very well, it's a beautiful turn of phrase. But it's not exactly like, I hate to do this to you. but it's got to be done, you know? Right.

The two things that made me think of, though, were like with Reneira and her own history, not just with obviously Agon's dream and what she has inherited with this prophecy and that burden, but like Reneer saw the Whiteheart, remember? In the third episode last season.

The white heart, everyone thinks it's going to come and be there for Agonne of, oh, oh, I'm on the conqueror, babe. Besides, importance, all the stuff. And it appears to Reneer. And Rennira sees it. Kristen sees it. Renira doesn't tell anybody. Renira is not a character at that point in her

in her life who feels like she has to go around saying, I seem to be the one that the signs are pointing to. But now she is. That's a notable change in how she behaves. Like, that's something that feels essential for us to track. And then who's her father? Her father is the guy who in that same episode

got fucking blitzed and stood by the bonfire and wept to Allison saying my obsession killed Reneer's mother. What obsession? the obsession with the dream, right, with signs and portents and dreams and prophecy. And you could maybe quibble whether that's exactly the same as saying the gods had blessed your mission, but I think it's all of a piece. And so we know how that led Viseras astray.

And for Reneira to be a character saying these things in this episode is like really alarming to me. And then to stand there and to walk away and say like, I've told you all I can, we didn't really go over the dues and don'ts, but I've told you all I can. The dragons must be the ones to speak now. and then to stand there as Vermethor baths them in fire, was so disturbing. And has her guards prevent them from leaving.

That was like the real, so, like, I like that we then have that conflict as viewers too, right? Because we're like, let's go. Let's get to this part. We got the dragons. We powered up. Let's get to this part of the episode. Because, like, you basically, I mean,

I'll just note quickly how, like, I really enjoyed the dragon trainers walking out on strike. That was interesting just because I did not really. That's another, like, sign, right? Like, would you consider that an omen if they walked out on you and said, like, fuck this? Right. Well, also, just like, I think it's worth distinguishing for viewers who maybe aren't, like, well-versed.

Like, those guys are of a different, like, their allegiances to the dragons, correct? It's different from the book to the show, because in the book, they're an order created by Jahres, like, a recently created order. Okay. And they're armored. They're, like, Ryan Connell described them as, like, the Swiss Guard in the book. But basically what happened is in season one, they did not have the budget

to create beautiful dragonkeeper armor for all these people. So he made this lore change that now they're these like monastic dragon keepers. And he ran it by George and George is like, that's fine. I was listening to him talk about this on a...

George is watching giant tape. He's like, sounds good. Sounds good to me. Jacking in on Daniel Jones' knee. Ryan Condal and David Mandel, who is the showrunner on Veep, have a podcast called The Stuff Dreams are Made of, which is about props.

And then episode with Ellie Murphy, who's the prop master on House the Dragon, it's like April 11th, 20203, where they talk about the dragonkeepers a lot. And there's all this lore that he's created for them. He's like, there's an elder and an accolite, and they work in pairs, and the elders give up English at some point

and only speak valetian. Like, he created this whole lore for them that we don't necessarily really know. But in doing so, makes them feel less like agents of the crown and more like this long line of, you know, a group that has, that came over from all Valeria and have their own ideas about this, that, the other thing.

Which makes it very different from the version in the book, I would say. Sorry, a long answer to your short question. No, that's fine. So, Masaria's a group. I think the dragon keeper should fuck off. That's my take. Like, putting these saddles on these drags.

Teaspoke sitting there with a saddle on him for more than half a decade after Lainor died. It's like horrible controlling them, trying to command them. A dragon is not a slave, Chris. We know this. Dragon is not a slave.

They have bolts through their necks. Oh, that's too bad. You hate to see that. Misaria brings over a bunch of would-be dragon riders. Blonde hair preferred, but not necessary. Yeah.

And they show up. Renera gives them a little bit of a speech. It's interesting. I thought that really quick moment where she basically shoes away her bodyguard was very interesting because it reminds you

all of these people come from King's Landing. And they basically answered a summons, but... This is an insane thing to do. To welcome all of these strangers into arms reach of your person and into your castle without like vetting anyone. You could say this

is her, putting her faith in these people and it's a very selfless act. Or you could say she's starting to get a little bit of like God complex here where she's like nothing's going to happen to me. Right? Like they're... Like I'm too big for just... I'm not the kind of person who's going to die in a room with a bunch of small folk, right?

I've always liked the fact that Renera was a character who was unafraid to do the desperate thing. Other characters call her out on it all the time. Allison, Renice, and she's like, what difference does it make if it's desperate? But when does desperate? Desper can be bold, right? Some people are afraid to do the desperate thing,

and so they never try to do the thing that might possession them to win. That's one way to put it. But like, did anyone ask Silver Dennis? Hey, who do you think should be on the crown? Was anyone like, oh, Oulf, tell me, have you ever stood in a pub and, like, touted that you think I'm the rightful queen,

and mentioned that you think just, that you think Jace is the rifle there. You have? Cool, great. Hey, Hugh, have you ever stood in the throne room after making scorpions for Egon and said that you're glad to serve him? Oh, okay, I have some follow-up questions. Like, there was none of that.

That's true, but I think also the standing amongst a crowd of people move, that felt very, it's one of the first things we learned about David Targaryen is that he is like the, you know, the people's prince, right? I thought you were going to say very Danny. Like, Danny, like,

Danny in the middle of a crowd of people that could just like surround her and could hurt her but don't. That's different. That's supplicants. This is more like I'm just like I'm among the people and it's something that like... These are the homies. Yeah. And it's something that like Damon showed her when he smuggled her out of the castle and they had their like really totally normal Uncle Nees night

and her response at that time was like fuck the small folk. I don't give a shit what they think or what they need. But she's just sort of like but this is what it's like to be among them. And something we've been talking about Mallory is like the way in which Rineir is trying to like cosplay Damon to a certain degree. So I was just like reminded of her like, what would Damon do in this scenario? He'd be like, I can walk among these people.

This is fine. I'll be fine, you know. Yeah, it's a great call. Okay, let's do the sewing. That becomes the red sewing. Not quite as effective as the red wedding because I don't have the emotional attachment to some of these people that I did the people who were at the red wedding.

I want to ask about Bermithor first, who is summoned by Reneer. Is this the starter dragon? No, you have to start with Silver Wing. This was astonishing. You have to. You have to start with Silver Wing. Is Silver Wing like, with Silver Wing just like, I just want to sit here

with this brood of eggs, you know what I mean? Not to be, maybe that's a very sexist thing for me to say, moms can be War Machine too. But Reniro wasn't like, hey, Silver Wing, are you up for it? Old Silver Wing, judged to be the most gossip of the masterless dragons. Like, I might at least start with the more chill

dragon who I did think it was very effective, ultimately storytelling for Vermithor to basically burn and eat everyone and Silverwing to just sort of like nose not so old. I feel like that was that. Very sweet. Well, that's what I was going to ask too is that obviously Vermethor knows to respond to its own name.

And I think there's a lot. Dragons are smarter than people. Like you're making, give me a second here. Before we get into IQ tests for these fictional beasts, I want to ask though, it understands its name and it understands

Camere. It wouldn't understand, hey, if you're not feeling this, feel free to like take a step back or blink twice, not kill everyone that you don't like. That's just what dragons do, man. Not sure if you've heard that dragons are not horses and also a dragon is not a slave.

Like for Vermethorne, the gall to summon vermouth. No, it's not like a, I'm not trying to enslave the dragon. I'm trying to be like, hey, so like we're going to try this. If you don't like this guy, it's cool. This is the risk. This is the risk. And again, like, no, seriously. The action is the juice. Reneer knows that, though.

Reneer knows the risk. Obviously, we saw it with C-Smoking and Stefan on a smaller scale, but Reneer knows that there's a chance that Vermethor says, I'm not here for this, and kills everyone. It's not only in play as a possibility. It's almost like a probable outcome. Here's, I think, my real critique of this, I would not send the whole group.

I would just send- them. Yeah, just like small groups. And put the rest of them in a soundproof place in Dragonstone so they can't hear the way. and the screams and the crisping of the skin. Like, who are we in quibble? Because it worked.

Not a fan of Rainier going up to the press box. If you're going to call the place, stand on the sidelines. You stay on the field and you keep the headset on. I don't want to see Dan Quinn up there with a backwards hat. We're like, yeah, I can get a good vantage place. Oh, man. Chris, can we tell you something about Vermithor and Silver Wing, both. Joe already mentioned Jahris and Alicane.

So, like, first of all, one thing to keep in mind is, like, they know each other, right? They've spent their lives together in those two dragons. Like, that's an interesting thing. as well because their riders were siblings, and also, stop us if you've heard this before, married. But this is an interesting little dragon lore nugget is that both Vermethor and Silverwing, they were born to Jaharis and Alassane, respectively, from their eggs.

So their older sibling, Raina, gave them eggs in their cradles. And then those dragons were born to them. So they've had prior riders, just as Seasmoke had, but they'd only had those prior riders. Like, Jeharis and Alessane, as Joe was noted earlier, lived for a really long time. New experience for these two. Okay. Yeah, they're just their second riders.

Silver Wing has been to the wall. Love that. Didn't want to go beyond. That's the one that they're talking about in the first episode of the season? Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. Well, actually, I think they were talking about Vermethor, but that's the lore changed.

But Silver Wing did go to the wall, yeah. Okay. Vermithor, after burning, maiming, and none of these people had the benefit of offing themselves while, like, they were on fire. Where's a dagger. Verminthor eventually, quote unquote, chooses Hugh or Hugh, you know, like, I was curious whether you thought, Vermithor responded more to Hughes trying to save that woman or Hugh being like, fuck it, let's be legends. And just screaming in Vermethor's face.

And Verminthor's like, I love this energy. Can I just say that? You and I are going to get a long green. I thought that interaction with that woman was so interesting because last time, we saw Hugh in, well, other than the conversation he has where he's like, remember how our kid died off screen? Like, in the streets of the King's Landing, punching someone to grab their bag of food and, like, running off. When he grabs that woman, when he gets behind the rock and he grabs that woman, she, like, gasps and kind of flinches and it's, like, unclear. Is he going to, like, throw her in front of the dragon?

Is he, is he chivalric or is he selfish? And then he does like, you know, he pulls the full Jurassic Park distracting her. And I don't know. I don't know what he was thinking at that moment. My kid is dead. Can I make a lady of my wife? This is the last thing I can do.

We learn about his, his Targary and ancestry, which I don't, Mal and I will spend more time. Then we're going a little long. Malina was spent more time talking about this. Sarah Targ! We'll spend more time talking about this on House of R. But like, who we think it is,

I can kind of see how, floored by this. Yeah, it's a wild pick. But I can kind of see how then we're, the same way we're meant to like understand Ulf a little bit better by knowing which targ he belongs to, which targ this, this guy belongs to. Maybe he's like, just defiant. Defiant and rebellious, I guess is what I would pick up.

But it's almost like, it's almost like he's like, I've got, I've kind of shed my family and now I'm a wild man out here. Like, I read that from him a little bit. Oh, do you feel like Cat was like done, done with him? Like, I don't know. I mean, I thought she was like, okay. I don't want, I don't want you to do this. I don't want to be a lady.

I don't want to be a widow. And he's articulating a lot of what Adam has talking about where he's like, I want to matter. I want, I want more from my life than like scrounging, you know. I got the impression that there was a little bit of like, if this is how I go. Yeah. Better this than starving with my wife kind of looking at me side of. I mean, much more than I would believe that, you know, Rainis was committing suicide at Rook's Rest.

I could believe that Hugh Hammer's like, I got nothing to lose, let's go. Yeah, for sure. And then we get Mallory into Ulf getting, you know, scurrying around. Did he destroy any Dragon Eggs? He opened the, like, protective crust around a clutch. Okay. We saw Damon, like, really carefully opened that in season one,

and then we just saw Ulf stomped through it. It was devastating. I felt such secondhand embarrassment for my guy, Ulf. But eventually Silver Wing comes up, knuzzles him, chooses him, and Ulf,

I guess Renira hadn't really thought this through about what happens if anybody actually gets chosen. Alv's just like, I'm taking this for a ride right now. I don't need to sign any paperwork. We can, I want to see, I want to open this thing up. Was that a silver wing audible, or was Ulf, like,

let's buzz the tower at King's Landing and see what happens? I have no idea. I think it's completely believable and in play to me that Alf would be like, I really hope my boys see this, let's go. Like, I think on the one hand, it's clear he's not in control. He's no idea what he's doing. He's barely hanging on. That's the initial test. Remember, we saw, like, when Amund claimed Vagar, like that first flight, that test,

can you stay on? But if he did at any point gain the ability to guide it all, and he was probably like, oh, if they see me and cheer for me, how wonderful. I certainly do not think, a couple things. One, Scorpion guys on the battlements, the ramparts of the Red Keep could not have been less prepared for this.

Arks gone, so. And they felt a shit without him. That's the real legacy of the Cargall twins. They were needed and they had purpose after all. I have another note. Amund parking Vagar so far away weeks

Vigar's too big to be any closer but it reeks of me being like you know what I just got my car wash I'm gonna park it really far from the mall and then when I'm leaving the mall I'm like I made a huge mistake this is a terribly long walk back to my car like Vagar having to be like

Amid having to be like now I have to ride a horse a significant amount to get to Vigar summon him and then get up in the the air. So he gets up in the air. I'm sorry. I refer to my car as him. So that's where I got

confused. Chris, if you got an electric, you would park closer to the door because you'd plug in, you know? I'm going to just play Andy's part here and say that. I felt like I felt like I had to. But when it's Fury Road Time, who's more ready, you know? Gozellee, baby, yeah. Old Fry's on King's Landing, and

Amand answers the call. Yeah. He goes up there with Vagar. It looked for a second. I had to watch this twice. It looked like they were headed for each other, but I think at this point, Ulf's actually heading back towards Dragonstone and Amon's chasing him.

Amon, one eye, but apparently a very good one, seems to spot the amassing dragons on Dragonstone. Am I right by assuming that? Yeah, and then he did enhance, enhance, and saw the look on Renair's face, and was like, not today, Faker. Yeah. I think what's interesting,

I don't think this is right, but for one split second, and I had the thought of, like, did Rainira do this? Did Reneer bait a trap with Silver Wing and Ulf? I don't think she would necessarily risk her brand new hard one dragon rider with baiting that trap. But I did have that thought of, like, did she try to lure Amid over to either take Amon on or just be like, what's up, bitch?

But this is something I texted you guys. If that had been the move, I feel like Bayelah would have been out there on Moon, dancer and Adam would have been out there and see smoke and she'd have been like, we got the whole crew. So I think, and she's still sooty. It's like no time has passed. This is like mirror moments later. And so, yeah, I think it's just that Silver Wing like just took off.

It was like, let's go for a ride, babe. And but Renira, like, and Hugh on Vermithor's back. We're just sort of there at the, at the shore ready. So Renair's with her dragon. Yes, I, X. Hugh is behind her on Vermithor, who, was the biggest next to Vagar. And then who's flying up in the sky behind them?

That's Ulf on Silver Wing. Yeah. Oh, okay. And so Jace is not on his dragon. Jason. Jason's Solgain somewhere. Yeah. Jason's sulking somewhere.

Well, Adam and C. Smoke. Yeah. Adam and C. Smoke. Bail on Moon Dancer and theory, Jason Vermax, if they're ever invited, the numbers grow. But it's an interesting. We were talking last week about all these little coalitions that were formed and how Eamon made this move to just, like, fire everyone off his small council and strip everyone away because he's like, I don't need anyone.

It's just me and Vagar and we can take on the world. We're still waiting on Otto to get there from the world. But Tessarian has taken wing. Yes. We heard that Darren's dragon Tissarion has taken wing. Iron Rott said that the high towers are going to be unstoppable. Iron Rots never

been wrong about anything before. But that's a big, I mean, these Darren teases are just like unbelievable at this point. The volume is astonishing. Just put Darren in the second season if we're going to mention him this much. But I also fucking love them. And I consider than the sustenance of life until we actually meet Darren in season three.

So that was nice. But the point was like that Amon is like, for the first time in a while, is like, oh, just me. A coalition of just me is not going to be enough against what Reneer has done here. A pretty iconic shot to end the episode on. Like usual, we do not see the scenes from next week.

And I'm sure that they would be pretty inscrutable anyway because it's the finale. I do note just with interest that with this, Mount of Dragons now out, taken in the sea air, with characters. I feel like there's just going to be a lot of dragon acting going forward and a lot of, like, visible, this person is touching a dragon's head and get right, buckle up, man, because, like...

I thought the Vermethor stuff with Rainira especially was, like, and like, the drool on the teeth, but also the focusing in on just one eye. I think that was, like, the most realistic a dragon face. has ever looked on any screen I've ever watched. I thought it was incredible. So dragons respect other dragons riders.

How do you mean? Well, Reneer can't ride in Vermithor. Oh. Right? She's sort of like summon him. But she can kind of settle him down and whisper sweet.

Nothing's to him. Well, he did allow Damon to sing him his lullaby last season as well. And I will note that I think her, Rinearra's facial expression was like kind of part of the answer to your question, Chris.

Like, she had like, he came when I called. He let me reach out. It's a sign. Yeah, I did it. Another sign. Only I can do it. Okay. All right. And look. But you know, they come when the dragon keepers call. Like, they're, yeah, they're in

communication with the people around them. That's not the same as... They're incredibly responsive animals. They know where their food comes from. Joe, Joe, thank you, Mal. Thank you so much. You guys were amazing despite everything. And thanks to Jack and everybody

behind the scenes for putting us together. here virtually you can listen to Joanna and Mallory discuss this episode of House of the Dragon in depth on House of R. You can listen to The Midnight Boys, break down this episode. You can listen to me and Andy misunderstand most of this episode on the watch. You can also watch us.

Please subscribe YouTube slash Ringervverse. It's the Ringervverse channel on YouTube and you can also watch us on Spotify. So thank you so much for checking us out. We will be back. We will be live as live can be next Sunday. In the studio, all things being equal, after the finale of House of the Dragon season, two, can't wait to see you all there.