House of R - 'House of the Dragon' Season 2 Wrap: Season Awards, Mailbag, and Book Lookahead

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

I did not think they would be so eager to pod. Mal and Jo are back to send off Season 2 of 'House of the Dragon' properly! They offer up their season awards, including Most Improved Character, Best Set Piece, the Season MVP, and much more (09:33). Then they answer your burning questions with an ‘HOTD’ mailbag (01:04:31). Later, they go into their heavy book-spoiler section and look ahead to what may happen next season (01:24:39). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. You are the true queen. Reinerer. First of our name, protector of the realm, I am meant to serve you. And all of these with me until death or the end of our story. Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer

Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to King's Landing, but also back to the House of R. Joining me today, reminding me that I alone made Virtue my banner. It's Joanna Robinson. Did you make Virtue

your banner, Mallory? Certainly not. Is that what we would say? Hello, what's up? Bad Babies. We're still here. We're still in Westrose, Mallory. Yeah.

We just weren't, we weren't ready to leave quite yet. One last time. We're going to do a little season wrap. Little season two wrap. We are going to hit some season awards. We're going to answer some mailbag questions. And then we're going to do a little book look ahead because we didn't do that in the deep dive. We're going to do it here today.

So before we dive into all of that, some quick programming reminders. Over on the ringerverse, the midnight boys, we'll be back with you next week, as we'll mint edition for Alien Romulus and Watchman Chapter 1. That's coming on Monday. Midnight Boys will be back with you next Wednesday. Here in the House of R, we will have one podcast for you next week. We're taking some time off. Hype meter. One pod, barring something unforeseen that forces us to pod more than once. No.

Have one pod. Mallory, no. Vacation. We promised. It's necessary. Full episodes of House of R. Full episodes of the Midnight Boys available on the Ringerverse YouTube channel.

So hit subscribe on that if you haven't. Joanna, where else can everybody follow along? Wow, I'm so glad you asked me. First of all, back to the YouTube thing. If you want to watch me wipe the floor with Van Lathen in a Last Jedi debate, you can do that. You can listen to it on a podcast forum or Ringiverse,

but you can watch it on the YouTube channel as well. And quite wide the floor with me. He had some great points, but I think I did win at the end of the day. But friendship won more than anything else. Also, you can just subscribe to the pod. Why don't you on your pod listening platform of choice?

Subscribe to House of R. Subscribe to the Ringerverse. If that's not enough, if you want more, guess what? We're all over social media, thanks to Jomey a dinner on. So you can follow the Ringerverse

on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, etc., etc. And then of course, as always, Hobbiton Dragons at gmail.com. We are taking one solitary single week off. And then we will be doing a hard transition, hard pivot.

Yeah. From Dragon Time to Hobbit Time. It's rings of power. I'm so excited. We've gotten so many emails from listeners saying how excited. Oh, my. Oh, my goodness. I hadn't.

It's been a minute since I heard of, like, multi-cawl. Yeah. Yeah. How excited they are for Rings of Power. People are really excited for Rings of Power season two in general and also like our pod coverage. As you might recall, I took it extremely early in the hype draft at the start of the year. I'm really looking forward to it. Where will it fall on the hype meter?

The seasonal hype meter next week. Who can't say? Tune in to find out. I can't wait, though. Spoiler. I love your. I just forget what we drafted like as soon as we are done drafting. Certain things I feel really proud of.

and then certain things haunt me. And not just like taking Deadpool, knowing that Sean Wood on the swing, whereas there was absolutely no prospect of him taking rings of power and I could have just gotten it in the second round is something I thought about every single day since we spotted since we did the draft every day. I'm just like a goldfish. I'm just like a goldfish. I'm like another trip down around the bowl and I have completely forgotten what we did.

Okay. Great. Great stuff. Well, can't wait to be in Middle Earth and excited to be in Westrow today. What a time. One of a time for the House of Our Hobbits and Dragons. Great stuff. Joanna.

Yeah. The last programming reminders is the friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning. It's the same one as always. We will be talking about not just a single episode today, but everything that happened in season two of House of the Dragon could come up today. Everything that happened in Season 1 could come up today. Anything that's ever happened in House of the Dragon could come up today.

Throughout the pod, as always, we will be talking about fire and blood for context, for insights. But anything that's in the future, anything that awaits in the text, we will be discussing separately in our book look-ahead section and you will have a spoiler warning before that section begins. So if you do not want to join us for that, you can still hang around for the season awards and the mini mailbag and then we will we will part with you. Yeah. And for two years from now when we return to Western House again. I mean, hopefully you'll listen to other pods.

And the folks who have been feeling like the book section was like a little, you know, brisk our previous pause. This is like our serious like, we're spent some time in that section today. We have a lot to think about to say about it. So, yeah. All right, Joe. Yeah. We have dishonored ourselves in the crown with our comportment here, but we're going to pot anyway. Not yet.

But give us time. You have a mailbag question before we begin our season's proletives? Something you want to toss out? It just made me laugh. Our listener, Kennis, wrote, and I believe this is the entirety of the email, ladies, I've now watched Dude 2 twice on an airplane, to quote the monkey from the Lion King, It is time. So Paul of Fame.

Before the end of the year? Sure. We can say that on the podcast. We can commit that to the public record. I feel we will have a bounty of prospective hooks around Dune Prophecy. And we will consider that as a possibility. Yeah, the Oscars next year, the one-year anniversary of the film next spring. So fall, spring, sometime in there.

Yeah. Yeah. Before we retire. Before we die. Yeah. Well, I mean, that could happen at any point. So, like, who knows? I mean, again, I have been incredibly out of well.

If one of us dies. The others will do the Paul of Fame in Memorial in honor. Yes. That can be the eulogy you do at my funeral. Live from the gravesite. I like it. I will be potting. No.

Perfect way to say goodbye. Perfect way to say goodbye. Okay. Rim. Always nice when people check in on the Paul of Fame. We appreciate it. We look forward to doing it one day. Genuinely, can't wait.

Exciting times. So much content. I love story. Do two on a plane. Yeah. Yeah. What's your plane movie strategy? Oh, I choose, like, the dumb stuff that I feel too good for in the theater is I watch it on a plane.

I was just talking to someone, they were talking about a ranking that they gave a film on Letterbox. They gave like a four-star ranking to, I can't remember the movie, but some like pretty widely acceptably shitty movie. And I was like, why did you rank it so high? And they were like, oh, I watched it on a plane. I was like, I feel like letterboxed should have a different color star for I watched this on a plane.

Because your standards are so low, so much lower on a plane. And that's when I, yeah, it's when I like to catch up with the trash. And I have a great time doing so. And I don't feel guilty about it. So plane watches. It's for the trash. What about you? What are you watching the plane?

I don't really. I usually listen. Oh, you stare into space and think about your errors? And think about mistakes and prior drafts. Yeah, kind of. Usually I'll, like, read or listen to podcasts. And then I will spend a large chunk of each flight trying and failing to fall asleep and thinking about how I can't fall asleep and how unhappy I am that I can't fall asleep.

That's usually my routine. And then I have a lot of snacks. As you know, I have a very serious snack strategy for flights. I'm mere days away from taking. a flight. So that's it to meet you. Can't wait. To see me. I'm so excited. See you. We've been together for a summer and apart for mere days and we need to be reunited, however briefly. And I have many, many flights ahead of me over the next week and a half, two weeks. So we'll see. Maybe I will watch something. I'll let you know. I'll keep you posted. Sometimes watching

trash on a plane is a good way to put yourself to sleep. Just a thought. Interesting. Okay. I'll take it under advisement. I know you fall asleep watching things sometimes. I've heard these stories. But that's if I'm like super comfortable at home in pajamas on the couch under a fleece blanket with Halo curled up, nuzzled into my like hip or elbow nook. Whereas I find playing so uncomfortable that like it's just difficult for me not to think about how every joint aches and also about all of the germs that are around me. This is a great way to start this podcast. Do you think people like this? Are they riveted right now? Oh, dear.

Oh, Simon. Okay. let's start the post. Oh, Simon. Perfect. Okay. It's, it's, it's, you know what? I feel like we're going to be hearing again from Sir Simon Strong in these superlatives today because it is time to head back into the Bows of the Pleasuredend for the season

two superlatives. Take it off. You wouldn't dare. I have that. And I find it stimulating. How much daring will there be in today's award selections? Let's find out. We know the categories, but I do not know what you.

you picked and you do not know what I picked. So we're going to go rapid fire through some highlights of the season and we're going to surprise each other. I feel like as usual, you will be able to guess absolutely all of my picks and I will be surprising you not once. But we'll find out. I didn't get too well to mock you with these. Lyrus for every category.

Maybe like assignment and analysis just sprinkled in. Best episode for Larris. For variance. Best set piece. Larris. I mean, you could try it. I think people would accept it. You know, we love a bit here at the House of Our

Thanks for the support. Yeah. Hey, anytime, pal. Anytime. Let's get to our first season two superlative. It's the worst I'm rational award. Favorite episode of the season. What do you got?

This is kind of tough, actually. Yeah, I found a lot of these quite hard. But I went with just like, thinking back to like my elation and my excitement to discuss an episode with you and Chris, etc, et cetera. I think I have to go with the Burning Mill Episode 3, the pre-Rooks Rest episode. Part of it had to do with how high Chris Ryan was on it.

Because it's always, you know, this is a communal effort, us watching House of the Dragon. And so, like, the fact that Chris, who, like, his enthusiasm for House of the Dragon is never quite as high as ours is as a default. So the fact that he was just, like, over the moon about episode 3. And, like, we were at the live show

and you hadn't watched it yet, and he and I had watched it, and we couldn't wait for you to watch it. And he was talking about the writing. This is episode that David Hancock wrote, and so we were talking a lot about David Hancock's writing in this episode. We found it to be very, like, witty, very emotional. This is, and I often like a pre-battle episode. Like, you know, this is what happens right before Rook's Rest, essentially.

And so, you know, the way the Burning Mill was handled, the way that, you know, Laris becomes master of whispers for Agon. We meet Ulf in seriousness here. Yeah. And Bella gets to scare the shit out of Chris and Cole with her dragon. I mean, what more could I ask for, really? So, yeah. Great pick.

Christopher Ryan was on my mind with some other categories today. This is not going to be the last time Chris comes up today. is the inspiration behind an award or two. Chris, Chris and his love of a different Chris? Perhaps. Yeah. Perhaps so I would be dedicating one of today's,

one of today's selections to Chris Ryan. Thanks for Jay Ryan. Great pick. Loved that episode. I am going, perhaps unsurprisingly, with the next episode, episode four, The Red Dragon and the Gold,

which I just fucking loved. Oh, it was great. Watching the season, I loved it even more. I thought that everything at Rook's Rest was obviously extraordinary. I will be, spoiler alert,

but perhaps unsurprisingly returning to some of the dragon-centric happenings in that battle in other categories today, so I won't linger on that for long, but everything with Sunfire and Males and Vagar,

the reveal for book readers of what Amand did Kristen waking to a world on fire. Tremendous stuff. Before that, I really, like, as you know, loved, the Kristen Duskendale sequence and remain quite haunted by the you should thank me for it moment,

which was just so disturbing. I thought that Gawain's challenge to Kristen of they will not accept it because it's fucking madness. It felt like this really key moment and key idea in the season. It's a great, you know, I think obviously among the fandom, uh, mileage varied over the course of the season of when people were ready for Damon to move out of the vision era of his arc, but this was like, I mean, this was the height of like,

ooh, everything that's happening here is fun and interesting and cool. The Rainerah Throne Room vision. And then just the actual meetings, right? We get to meet Oscar Tully in this episode. Adult Will and Blackwood, the first real conversation, not the little mini dispatch in the godswood in the prior episode, but the first real conversation of substance between Alice and Damon, including our instant favorite.

girl child. A girl child. You bounced on your knee. You bounced on your knee. Sensational stuff. This is the episode with that sensational, Allison, Egon conversation that referenced routinely throughout the rest of the season. Allison and Laris discussing the histories, that lingering effect on Allison after her encounter with Renera and the sept in the episode you picked. Eamon dunking on Egonne and High Valerian at the council meeting. Just amazing stuff. And then, of course, with Jace and Reneera. I wanted a little more Jace in my selections than I ultimately got

because I thought it was a great Jace season. But this episode had some good Jace moments, the challenges, the naked challenges to Reneer at the painted table. And then, of course, the moment where Reneer finally shares the Song of Ice and Fire Agon stream with her son. So that's my pick. My runner-up was episode seven, the red sewing. But, yeah, episode four.

That's my favorite at the end of the season. I think they make a really good pair because a lot of the things you talk about, like, Amon's vengeance on Agon is a payoff of what happens in episode three. Or, you know, Reneer in the throne room is the follow-up from, like, the first glimpse of Reneer we get in episode three. And, like, a lot, you know, or Laris and Alicent is a fallout of Alicent and Reneer and the Sept in episode three. So it's like, yeah, really good, like, set them up, knock them down, sort of dynamic between those two episodes. So, yeah. Absolutely.

That might return as a key bit of inspiration in the next category. Oh. We have some bookends that might come up here. Some smuggles, perhaps. We'll see. Our next category is, is the pudding now served. Best scene. What was your favorite scene of the season, Joanna?

This was a hard one. This was hard. I do have a smuggle here, actually. It's my only smuggle, genuinely. Actually, same. I could not pick between Reneira and Damon and Reneer and Alice. in the finale. Is that same as yours? I have, my smuggle is two Reneer daemon scenes.

Oh, the like big fight and then, yeah, sure. I picked the fight, but obviously then felt compelled to mention the payoff of the reconciliation. But yeah, for me, and it was so funny when I, we'll be citing this, like, presser that Ryan Connell did sort of like a little later in the pod, but like one of my favorite moments of that presser when I was like, I was like, you know, there's this great. Rainier and Allison's scene, this great Renair and Daven scene, sort of like, well, he's like, well, they are our three main characters, right? I was like, sure. Yes. Okay.

Did you say, excuse me, Laris is the protagonist of this experience? How dare you? With Vassaris, merely a ghost now, these are our three main characters in the way, you know, and I would argue, if I had to pick one as our main character, who's on all the posters, I would say it's Renira. But, like, so Renira and the two most important relationships in her life, with Damon with Allison in this finale. I just found perfectly acted, really satisfying to have Reneer and

Damon back together again after like such a long separation. Similarly, Reneer and Allison, we've only seen, we only saw them twice together in the season as a whole. So like I, you know, there were times in the season when I was

impatient for, you know, more of this. And so I'm not saying that I I am a fan on a whole about sort of like the way that characters were dispersed, but also our adapters were working with what happened in the books. So, you know, all of that is true. But it did feel like just joyous and like relief to have these characters interact again in the finale. So yeah.

Yeah. Great picks. I can't believe it's the only smuggle. What discipline? What restraint? I'm amazed. I love those picks. This was, I think, of all of the categories today, the hardest one for me, just because there were so many, like, showcase showstopper scenes across the season.

But ultimately, I went with the Damon and Renera fight, the separation in, pathetic, yeah, in episode two. Because of the way that that feels like this crucial moment at the heart of things coming in all directions, right? It's like so many tributaries of the river are flowing into and out of that. I don't really know how bodies of water work. Though I do enjoy looking at them and being near them and find that they bring peace. How many pods in a row will I mention or allude to a body of water? I guess all of them until I'm actually at the ocean. You know how you'd like to repeat how much I hated Krevis and love in ocean vista?

Yes. To the point that like our listeners are a little like, so Dave posted something in Twitter about how he thought I was going to be upset with something in the movie Alien Romulus, which I had. it. But he has subsequently told me what it was, and I am upset. But all of the responses from our listeners is like, is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? You abhor a crevice? Everyone knows. And I was talking to my friend Diana about this. She's like, do you mean crevasse? And I was like, genuinely, I don't know the difference is she had a crevice and a crevas. I thought it was just pronunciation. Curvas is just a glacier crevice. And do I, would I dislike a glacier crevice more than just like a rocky crevice? Probably,

because it's cold and slippery, like harder to get a grip to get out of it. Could you melt it, though, more easily with, like, your body heat? It depends how big the glacier is, I would say. Like, how much is your poor dying bird is of your body competing against a massive glacier? Yeah, maybe if global warming is on your side, you can melt your way out of that glacier, but I don't know. I would say crevasse worse than crevice, probably. general. You know, we learned something new about you today.

And that's a beautiful thing. I love it. Great stuff. What if you took the thing I love, a body of water, and froze it and put it on top of the thing I hate, a crevice. You get a crevoss. So, you know, it's a cruel twist of fate. Life is full of these complexities, you know. Jeez.

Boy. Speaking of complexities, real scenes from Ameris stuff from Damon and Renira. This was great. The blood and cheese fallout. Really building from that look at the council meeting with Renier. a clock that Damon is for the first time ever quiet. That was just such a great, delicious moment. I loved it.

And the way that, like, Viseris, as we talked about at length of the time, was so present in that argument, even, of course, in death and absentia, I thought was just brilliant. That do you accept me as your queen and ruler idea that then had such a bearing on both of their arcs the rest of the season. And, you know, the way that they each said things that really you shouldn't be able to forget or take back, but somehow managed to work their way back to each other. Like we talk about this a lot in stories. That can be the true test of a relationship.

Can you make it to the other side of an exchange like that? And then, yeah, we build toward that, like, really, really rewarding and emotional payoff in the finale, which we heard at the top of this episode. Fantastic stuff. So I have found myself thinking about that scene. a lot since the season ended and uh thought it was great stuck with me loved it a lot of contenders for this category i ended up like eliminating some picks just because i have other i have them in other categories but a lot of choice love a divorce story you love a divorce story as a child of divorce i

love a i love a marriage being tested on screen okay time for our next superlative to war then to wool then it's the season MVP will we agree I doubt it. Oh, interesting, because you're picking Lyris. No. I decided to, this is the one I think that I decided to think slightly outside the box. I decided to go with the VFX team. Oh, love this.

Great stuff. We have, but I don't know if we have enough, like, paid homage to what incredible job they did with the dragons this season. We talked a lot about our pal Paula Fairfield, who does the audio, which is huge for determining the person. personality of these dragons. But like having to design all of these dragons and make them look so distinctive and and imbue them with so much personality and so much emotion, which I know is going to come back in sort of like a few of your picks. Like it's so key because, you know, as we mentioned with Thrones, Drogon was always like a great design, but it was really like Drogon and then Regal and the Sarian are also there. Like it wasn't really like we really felt

like we understood distinctive personalities or really even like super distinctive. styles until one of them became a zombie, like, between the other two dragons, right? So just you can't, I can't even kind of hand how many dragons new dragons we got this season. It's incredible. So I'm going to shout out, Picksamondo, Weta FX, Rodeo FX, RVX, Zoic Studios, Red Visual Effects, and supervisor, Daddy Anarsen, and Tom Horton for their work on this season. Takes a village.

It takes many VFX houses. Yeah. It's a great one. Fantastic pick. I love it. Thanks. I went in the completely opposite direction. This is like the, just a, I'm cruising a fastball down the middle with this one. Because I was a little worried, both because I feel good about this pick and it is something I believe. But also because I was a little bit worried that Renera might be like underrepresented in my selections.

And so Renera is my MVP of the season. Obviously, it's an astonishing performance from Emma, RSI, just sensational. And, you know, for Reneira the character, one of the real delightful experiences of this season when we talk about the nature of adaptation is how many surprises were waiting for us in every episode because, as we've talked about many times,

like, so much of this stretch in the book is, like, Reneira was, you know, in another room. Being sad. Working through it. And so to see all of the ways that Reneira impacted key events and participated in moments that never made their way to the history was just like a really scintillating

and stimulating part of watching the show as like fans of the story. And, you know, this gets back to what you were saying actually in your, in the, in your pick for best scene, like, well, these are our main characters. Reneira was present in and a participant in some of the most consequential and all-inspiring scenes of the season,

the Allison scenes, the Damon scenes. The Jace scene, when Jace makes the like, please don't go the army of bastards, team bastards route. I mean, that is just a sensational scene. And then all of these moments of real heft and impact in relationships that are newer, either to us or to the characters,

then like, we're invested. in Renera Allison, Renera Damon, but Renira Masaria is nudas on screen, and we were really gripped by it. Obviously, Bela has been in Renara's life for a while, but there were a couple moments between them that really, really stuck with us, a very new relationship, like Adam,

making his way into Renera's life, was so interesting to watch in real time. And then you have, obviously, all of these different emotional notes that Renira is hitting, over the course of the season, and it's one of the reasons that episode seven

was so successful because when we get to see Roneira in that, I cannot gainsay what the gods have laid before me moment. And Runeira putting her hand on Vermithor's snout

and the look on Reneer's face. I mean, it's just, it warps its way into your brain in a way that you know is going to be lasting. So Rinear is my pick. It's incredible. If anyone has any doubt,

I sent this over to you, someone on Reddit, acceptable mix 6364 is the Reddor's name, broke down character screen time by like hours and minutes and stuff like that. And, you know, Reneer, our 44 minutes, 20 seconds, by far the most screen time. Allison's second most with it. But like with like nearly 40 minutes less. So like Rineer is our queen.

main character for sure. I don't know. I don't think that was up for debate. I just thought it was interesting. And like those three characters, Alice and Damon and Reneera, all clock in over an hour. And then the next underneath that is like Agon the second and Kristen who are like 39 minutes, 38 minutes total for this season. So like it's a significant gap between those three main characters. And then like 39 minutes for Kristen. That's like seven hours to a few for Chris Ryan. I think that's a nice transition into our next award, Joanna. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is my fault.

I think that you have forgotten to fear me. Most improved player. I think you thought I was going to pick Kristen or we had like discussed. I just assumed you thought I would, I would pick Kristen. I didn't pick Kristen. I did. Don't worry. And I didn't pick Masaria, though those are two like that are.

That's who I thought you would pick. Those are two that are interesting to think about. Actually, I'm going to give it to Tom Glencarnie, and it's not that Tom Glencarnie wasn't as Agon the second, wasn't good in season one. He just didn't have, like, a ton of opportunity. Like, there were very few scenes, actually, with Tom Glencarnie as Agon in season one. And also, we were dealing with really rough storylines for him in season one and so like that. And so Tom Glencarnie, no, and we knew this as book readers watching him, knew that he only had a few episodes for. episodes before he was going to be like very badly burnt for the rest of his time on this show.

And so he was just eating, eating it up, eating up every inch of screen time. Also, the writers knew that they had to do a lot of like a lot of work on Agon this season. Now, has he healed a little quicker than we maybe thought he would? Yes, I mean, but he's still, rest in peace, the dragon cock. But then even then, even his moaning, groaning, burnt acting was incredibly good and effective. So I just think that Tomlin Carney really came from someone that I wasn't paying that much attention to, to someone where I was like, this is one of the best performances of the season, incredibly charismatic and character. And now engendering a lot of empathy in me for a character that I was pretty hardened against.

So, you know, I think Tom deserves the flowers for that. I love this pick. I would say that Agon was like maybe my runner up for MVP of the season. Right. Every AGON scene was interesting. So good. But yeah, I love, I love going with Tom and AGON and most improved player here. This is where I will be honoring Chris Ryan by selecting another Chris.

Kristen call. I just can't. I mean, we talked about this a lot at the end of the season on Talk to Thrones and in the deep dives. Like, I really kind of on the one hand can't believe, but on the other hand, can because it feels so true to a Throne-Zian tradition. How riveted I was by Kristen's scenes by the end of the season. And with, again, multiple scene partners. Like, you know, if we think about the early season where we go from watching Kristen and Eamond plotting, or the small council or the great Kristen Egon Auto scene,

Kristen is named hand and lets it like amidst that little like, boop. And then of course, like, an incredible hair cut. I mean, I wasn't going to bring up the hair cutka because we do have a wig watch category coming and I wanted to leave that to you. But an incredible Kristen Allison season and an incredible Kristen Gawain season. With Allison, like, it feels part of the way that I can feel the passage of time of the season is when I think back to their sex scenes. Like that actually really feels like a long time ago now.

But what a time it was. Sword cleaning. The many courtyard interactions building toward the post-Rook's rest. Their armor melted. There were men walking that were on fire. We have given the Ward of the Dragons moment. That was one of my favorite scenes of the season. And the Kristen Gawain fireside chap.

In the finale was sensational and made me so eager to spend more time with that duo and to see where Kristen's arc goes from here and what surprises might await. I just am genuinely, this doesn't mean I'm rooting for Kristen necessarily or like love him, but I am invested in his story. And that is not necessarily how I felt about Kristen Cole at the end of season one. And so that feels like a notable achievement to me. I completely agree. He definitely deserves to be here.

I think also just thinking about the writing for the season, like we have our notes here and there about things they didn't get quite right. But the idea to take Gwain Hightower, a very amount of character in the book who has something to do in Kings Landing and making him Kristen Kuhl's main C partner for much of the season. That being said, and to go back to the runtime thing, You and I were, like, astonished to find out that Gwain High Tower had fewer than 10 minutes of screen time total this season. What a great job Freddie Fox did sort of imprinting on us.

Stay tuned for my next pick. Oh, okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to keep stepping on your picks. Freddie always makes every second count. It's amazing. Yeah. So, I mean, just like that was such smart writing to be like, okay, we're going to, we have to send Chris and Cole off on campaign.

We could have him staring moodily into the middle distance if we want to. or we could give someone for him to talk to. And that's Gwayne Hightower. Great choice. Great stuff. I love it. All right. Speaking of Gawain,

I assume you knew I was going to pick him for the next category. There are multiple contenders that I think you might pick. So I'm excited to see who you actually went with here. Oh, you make an art of provoking me. Who are you going with for most impactful new character? I mean, I think they did a great job with a bunch of, new characters this season. And like, but I was, I was stuck on your wording.

Like, I know you're not going to hold me to any wording necessarily, but you said impactful, not like favorite. And so because it's impactful, yeah. I went with Alice reverse. If you said favorite, it might be like Simon Strong and Ulf, like, dukeying out for that title. Those were the three that I assume were your finalists here. Yeah.

But Alice, in terms of impact on the story, not just the like dream therapy or the prophecy vision that we get in the finale, stuff like that, but just like the introduction of witchcraft and magic and old godliness into the storyline. I think she's so key for opening up an entire realm of possibility in terms of what they could do with the supernatural on this show. So for impact, Alice Rivers, for inspiring me to offend all of Scotland with my impression of Gail Rankin's beautiful accent, Alice Rivers. So, yeah. Oh, man.

I assumed this would be like a source of torment for you, whether to pick Alice or Ulf or Simon, but Alice is a great pick. I don't really can make the impactful argument for Simon. You could definitely for Ulf. But, yeah. Impact comes in many forms. Impact can be on the plot and the story. The lightful.

The joy of my heart. And so I won't be selecting with that in mind. The character I genuinely enjoyed spending time with the most this season, Gawain Hightower, brought to life in unsurprisingly riveting fashion by one of the icons of our time, Freddie Fox. We were guessing, without actually knowing, on the finale deep dive, like, how many minutes do we think Gawain had? And I think I said 17 and you said it was probably like around like 10.

And to hear that it was less than 10 actually then made me, feel more emboldened, weirdly perhaps it would be to pick him because I'm like, every second left a mark, every second left an oppression. And some of that was on the plot and like us understanding where we were heading or should we be heading there. Like the just question and even like a little moment, you know, oh, Aaroniol is to the west. Like with a half a sentence, he was able to set something up for another character quite effectively.

The humor, unsurprisingly, right? wonderful comic performer. But the heart, this was the, this was the like, holy shit, I can't believe we got this and how just really like

cherishing how poignant it was. I mean, the Gawain-Alison courtyard scene was in the consideration set for me for favorite scene of the season. I just thought it was incredible. And we got that emotion

and that glimpse into a character's backstory who we don't know. We had spent no time with Gawain. And that, you get on with it, don't you? And there isn't any choice. It just so effectively told us so much about his history and his life and his relationship to his family and the realm. And then that gift that he gave Allison of the he's kind and the I'm sure you did your best. I just thought

that scene was exceptional. And I can't wait to be back with with going. I'm picking. Chris is going to be like, I fucking intercepted you and I got you. I have a lot of like team green picks even though I remain. And I will just state it once more for the record, team black. But I did pick, I did go Team Green for like a lot of my picks because those scenes were great. They're entertaining. Chris isn't wrong that Team Green is the most like I think when Chris is like pro team green, he's like pro entertaining television and it's hard to argue with that. It's not really about the Team Green platform for Chris.

All I think for Chris, Chris is happy to watch like shitty characters doing shitty things. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point. I just rewatched all of Slow Horses because Rob and I are going to be covering season four on prestige. Yeah. No, not the best show on TV, but like, it's my favorite show on TV. It is not your favorite show. Yes, it is.

You like it more than House of the Dragon. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That doesn't mean it's like more important in my life. Okay. Well, you know what? I would like to go back in time and not agree with it. It's a wonderful show.

It's a wonderful pick for your favorite show in television. It's a tremendous show. And Freddie Fox, such an absolute smash. Also has less screen time in that show than I had. remembered. You know what I mean? Shows up for like, I don't know, five scenes total every season and just like crushes every single one of them. So the great example to me is King Hugo and the great. Because he has so few scenes, but they're like, you're like, this character of the spin-up and an entire cinematic universe. The great, a wonderful show also that people should watch.

Fantastic stuff. Okay. Next category. Mayle's must gorge and rest as must die. like to do things together and like to watch people doing things together and so it is time for favorite duo or grouping. Which set of characters did you like watching together?

You don't even have the same one for this. I'm not sure. I think it has to go to Laris and Aegon at the end of the... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it has to be. There scenes were magic. Really good.

I mean, obviously we got more moments than just the two primary ones that we'll talk about here, you know, from the way that Laris, like after Egon sat the throne and the premiere, started to work him and plant the hand, he was your father's hand seeds, or like watching them in physical therapy together in the penultimate episode, etc. But I think the real, this is the reason that we were making this pick. Data points are the sixth episode and the finale because the, um, the wear it like

armor scene, right? And they will underestimate you and this will be your advantage was that would have been my pick for my favorite scene in the season if I didn't know I was going to pick Laris and Agon and talk about it here. And then, you know, I think that finale scene, which just we talked about for so long in our finale breakdown was incredible. It was just absolutely incredible and all of the emotion and insecurity and ambition that is at play for both of the characters seamlessly in an exchange like that. And the performances are exceptional. So yeah, This was actually like, I think this might have been my easiest pick of the whole, of the whole set. I was starting here, Laris and Egon.

And Orwell, who was also there? Yeah, I. And also in Slow Horses, as you know, because I sent you a screenshot. Orwell pops up on Slow Horses Season 1. But like, yeah, I just, I think that it was funny when we were talking about this on Talk of Thrones and Chris is like, so do you think Laris is like playing him? do you think he's like being genuine? And you and I both said like both. You know, and then Chris was like, oh, so you fell for it. I'm like, I genuinely think that while yes, Laris is playing the

shit out of egg on at every single opportunity, he is also, Matthew Needham at least as an actor, has chosen to also have Laris be authentic in plenty of the things that he's describing, which makes him so much more interesting to me with love and respect that. a little finger because, you know, we got Baylish talking about Catlin and, you know, the things that he wanted, the things that he didn't have. But not, you know, Eden Gillen's a great performer, but not in like this vulnerable of a way. And so I just, I like this nuance to our schemer character a lot. And I hope we get even more of it going forward. So. Yeah.

And this also felt like a real. evolution for the character between seasons. So, love that. Okay. I knew we would have the same pick and we did. Great stuff. Next, I did not think they would be so eager to die. Best set piece.

This is so easy for me. I genuinely think there's, based on my understanding of your definition of set piece, I think there's only two possible answers. the red sewing and rooks rest and I got to give it to rooks rest the red sewing is incredible but rooks rest I think

the red sewing is incredible for its adaptive choices rooks rest even though we have the adaptive choice of like making Amon's attack overtly deliberately against Agon and all this sort of stuff that added wrinkle it's also

just like such a highly anticipated moment and leading up to it, and, you know, I said this on the finale pot, I've said it before, blood and cheese and the cargo bowl as like adaptations of like anticipated moments. I was just sort of like, okay, this is fine. This is pretty good, whatever. This just really delivered on something they really needed to deliver on, this like promise of dragon battles, which is just going to be, you know, we're in a Targaryen Civil War. It's just going to be a lot of what's going forward.

This is a proof of concept. Can they do this? a way that makes the action. You know, we'd seen Vagar versus poor ARAx, but like action, the action is legible, the ability to capture the emotion of the actors on the back of the dragon, to be able to capture the emotions of the dragons themselves, the connection between Rainis and Males as they both go to their deaths is just, like, close up there with, like, some of the most emotional stuff that we get this season.

And yeah, I thought it looked incredible, felt incredible, you know. And I was just like so pleased that they really knocked it out of the park with this, which I think they really had to to make us feel like the rest of this show is just going to be that kind of exhilarating and emotionally rewarding. So, Rooks Ress, maybe. Great pick. Great pick. I'm going the other way.

I'm going real sewing. Great. I think in part because I have Rook's Rest as my favorite episode and we'll be returning. to that battle in another category. But also because as much as I was looking forward to Rook's dress and as monumental of a like pivot point in the story as that is, I can't lie. Like I was looking forward to the sewing of the seeds more than anything else this season.

Okay. So I really, you know, it differs on screen from how it all unfolds in the text like the Seas Smoke. the pairing moving up, etc. But all in a way that worked for me and I just,

like when I think back to this season, you know, when I think back to season one now, there are certain moments, certainly certain lines that I like quoting,

but certain visuals that just instantly associate with the season. And for me, one of those moments for this season, for season two, is Vermithor

emerging from the shadow behind her era. It's just instantly iconic. Absolutely. And I mean, I do think Rooksress had that, had a couple of those. too.

That applies to both. It's a great job with both of these. Vagar's wings just like emerging above the tree line there. Definitely.

But like I just thought in addition to being visually splendid and in addition to the action being effectively heart-pounding in the red sewing, I thought that this was a great character moment for Reneira

and what it showed us about what Reneer was willing to do. And I also thought it was in here. This is going to be such an on-brand thing to say. Great character moment for the dragons. And like in a way that I think is important. You know, we felt what was distinct about Vermethor and Silverwing in that stretch. And then if we expand the sewing beyond just the actual end of episode seven,

the actual red sewing set piece and include like Seaspoke seeking out Adam and many other moments across the season, we can really feel. Good old sheepie in the finale. You know, we can really feel the personalities of the dragons this season in a way that feels like so, not only like an achievement, but such an important, sacred thing inside of this world. So that's just something I'm grateful for and really happy we got. That's my pick. Great pick. Great picks. Both of our books. I feel like we're going to have the same one for the next category, but let's find out. See, to those pigs. Most impactful location. I assume we both picked Sharp Point. Is the realm's delight? The Real Real Real Real Realms Delight, Sharp Point. Our favorite vacation destination, Sharper Point. Oh, man. I feel like your category name is a spoiler. I mean, it's Heron Hall.

It has to be Heron Hall. Oh, is it not Heron Hall? Yeah. My runner up, just to throw something else in the mix, is the Dragonstone Library, because I thought that was a stunning set. But yeah, I mean, it has to be Aeron. What about the Gantry at Dragonstone? As you know, I love and have always loved a Ganty and.

I have always known what that is. I know. It's your lifelong passion, your love of gantries. Oh, man. Yeah, it's got to be Harren Hall. Easy. What did you end up loving most about Harren Hall as a location? Was it the godswood? Was it the gods' eye? Was it the fucking incredible? Do we talk enough about that dining room table? I'm not sure we do. I just think, like, the way in which every, like, Shadow Jim Clay, like the way in which every location is, obviously feels like a complete place, not just like a series of disconnected rooms, because they basically built complete, like, labyrinths and rabbits warrens that are, that are these sets.

I don't know, like just goat stuff, baguano, rain dripping in, like, just the overall haunted vibe of it all. I just, I thought it was a wonderful pay. I mean, we've been to Heron Hall before in Game of Thrones, but we weren't. weren't using Heron Hall the way there, the way we were using it here, which was as like a Gothic haunted mansion location. And I just think they absolutely crushed it with that prompt. We are aligned. Wonderful. Next. I can have to make a more. Most memorable quote. And yes, you can just pick the category name. I can't have more. Okay. I could have got profound here.

Did you go profound? Because I didn't. I did. I was really tempted to go with some humorous lines. Like, I honestly really wanted to pick. I thought the dragons was gods or like I did not think they would be so eager to die. I thought they were gods. I mostly just wanted to hear you say it again, honestly. But no, ultimately I did not go with those.

I went with something else. What about you? Did you go with something kind of silly? I went with something kind of silly. but like I just think about it all the time. Tell me. It's when David says, you know, whatever. He says, like, what do you call the queen's husband?

Sir Simon says king consort. Great one. King consort. Just like an all-time wonderful Simon Russell Beal delivery of a wonderful moment. So, yeah. Did you consider picking the moment when Simon just shushes Damon like he's a little baby? Or just Simon clapping in the background. Yeah, King Elypsies Consort is my choice here.

And Simon, you are a legend. I'm so delighted that, you know, viewers at home seem to love Simon as much as, like, I was hoping they would based on the fact that they cast Simon Russell Beals. So, yeah. Let me tell you something. I also have a Sir Simon Strongline for you. Yeah. I do. the thing I thought most about

is like a unifying theme of the season. Came from Simon. Oh, well, the answer to that is lost in time. Sin begets sin. Begets sin. And it was just so subtly and beautifully delivered, but I thought about it almost every scene and certainly every episode after that.

And it informs now when I go back to the beginning of the story how I'll think about that as well. So that's the line that ultimately stuck with me the most. But again, this was a hard category because there were a lot of great lines this season. This is not the last time I'll be picking Simon in a category. I might be tempted in future if I get something wrong about lore or a quote

and you get it right, which is often the case. I'll just pull a, Damon, and be like, oh, well, who can remember? Fracking Blackwood, who can remember? Oh, man, Damon. Is Simon the winner of your next category? No, but Damon is. There were works of barbarity.

Top sex thing. And, you know, we had a little journey in our Google Doc last night. Like, what did we call our... We had a sex category in our Rapid Fire Awards in season one and looked back at the old docs. And it was called The Doctrine of Exceptionally Weird Sex Stuff, which, you know, is great. And I miss doing this... Congratulations.

So here we are. We have a whole season to consider. But kind of like a sex... light season. So actually not that much. I know. We'll talk about this in the book, look ahead section. What are the opportunities for horniness in the future? There's about to be a lot of fighting and a lot of, you know, mortal peril. So is, will that result more sex, less sex? We'll find out. Okay. Top sex thing. For me, I'm going to give it to Corleys and Rainis. Great. This is my runner-up. Perfect. I was hoping you would pick this. In bed together.

When Rainies is talking about David and Renira and she says, neither can he. He allowed her to command him. And Corley says, I have on occasion found that to be quite enjoyable. And the mind reels to all sorts of possibilities. And we just, you know, this, again, this is leading up to Rook's rest. And those of us who are book readers were like, tick, tick, tick, the clock is counting down on Ries. That's another really strong thing they did this season in terms of like giving us a lot of great Raine's content before we lost her in episode four. I think they did a tremendous job leading up to all of that.

Great. So, yeah. Great, Vic. I do regret to inform me that I won't be selecting. Damon dreaming that he's fucking his own mom. I'm sorry. But when I think back on the season and I think about sex stuff, this one left an impression.

It's tough to top. It's, well, they went for it. Fraising. Sure. We saw Damon Targaryen dream that he was eating out his own mom and wrapping his arms around her as she said that he was made to wear the crown and then said as he swiped a bloodied hand across her throat, my favorite son. That was a real journey that we went on together watching this television show. Just an incredible time. The number of texts we got from Chris Ryan that were like, wait, was that his mom?

This was one of my, that was genuinely one of my favorite memories of the season. Was texting with you and Chris after we watched this? And like, we had a lot to process in real time. Wait, but seriously, guys. That is a long. Chris, it was. It was. Boy.

Okay. Bit of a tonal shift here between categories. It does not fit a prince to pout. Most emotional moment. I'm going to give it to the pouting prince himself. Geras Valarian for when he comes back from the wall and he's trying to deliver his report to Reneira like a big boy would

but he's so sad because Luke is dead and he's trying to keep it together and he's tearing up and Reneer comes and gives him a hug in that episode which as we all recall Reneer has no lines but is in a lot of scenes just being incredible yeah Jase trying to be a grown-up

but crying for his brother at the same time. And I don't think it ever, like, other than perhaps what you're about to talk about, which I think is my guess and I think is like another really good moment. I don't know that there are many moments this season as I was thinking about this that, like, brought me to tears. Do you know? Like it wasn't, there's a very upsetting death. We're going to talk about that.

There's some, like, shocking things that happens, some very funny things that happen. But I wasn't, like, overwhelmed with emotion. But I was here. This one really got me. So, yeah. Is the other thing on your list that you're hoping I pick the Cargall Bowl? Yeah. Tremendously emotional moment for me.

I will, in fact, be picking a scene that involves two people with a lifelong bond who somehow made their way into the same room with each other. But I will not be picking the Cargall Bowl. I am picking for my most emotional moment. I think the thing you thought I was going to pick is coming in the next category for me. Yeah. So my most emotional moment, I was in tears watching Reneira and Allison in the finale. And like that entire scene is I think very moving and very raw and very intense and heavy.

But particularly, this is my pick within the pick. You speak as if from a distant dream. come with me. That just like broke me. It was devastating. And then it was like we had a very emotional moment talking about it on the pod. And you said so many beautiful things. So this is my pick.

I just found this so moving. And I think I'll be, yeah, I'll be thinking about this for a long time. Great pick. All right. Next. It must be the dragon. Perhaps the witch. We'll find out who speaks.

most magical fantasy element. I have three words. Do you want to guess what they? It's just which stuff go. Which stuff go. Clearly. Which stuff go. In my witch era, having the best year of the witches that I could possibly have. And yeah, which stuff go? So good.

I'll be going the dragon route here. And this is where I am picking what I think maybe you thought I would be picking in the prior category, most emotional moment. But this genuinely was the most emotional moment of the season for me without question. But I knew I wanted to pick it here because it represents this larger, the core idea of like how to center the fantasy elements in this story about war and politics and the family dynamic and everything else. It's Mely's looking back at Rainees in her final moment, which shattered me.

Shattered me, Joanna, into a million pieces, a million little dragon scales. And before that, too, the moments entwined with each other, like, we're cutting between Rainis preparing to mount Males in the Dragon Monde and, like, the way that she puts her hands on her, and Males looks back over her shoulder. Like, we get that over the shoulder look in that moment, that link and bond between them. And then when Sunfire comes out in the Dragon Pit and, like, head butts, egg on, gives him that sweet little nuzzle. Egan Sunny.

I see my sweet sunny My sweet sunny I thought that the moments where we felt so keenly And all of the lines in the text Which I love and cherish I love returning to And thinking about and quoting

Where the idea that we cannot understand The mind of a dragon Or cannot understand The Bond The nature of the Bond The particular lore and mythology And actual explanation Of or driving forces behind the bond

In those moments You understood everything you needed to about what is at the heart of that relationship. And I thought it was beautiful. I loved it. Loved it. Oh, sad. Okay.

Next, you have no choice but to submit the most scintillating use of score. Do you have a favorite musical moment from this season, Joanna? This was the easiest one I thought by far, which was, because I said this before, I do think there are moments, you know, the like, I'm going to try. trying to do an impression of it again and get it better this time. The, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, that stuff. That's good. I don't think Ramin Javadi has quite matched the highs, not even actually caught in, like, quite close to the highs of the Game of Thrones score with the House of the Dragon score.

So in the finale, when we get All Must Choose and we're sampling Game of Thrones scores in here, and we've got Raines of Castamere in here, and we've got the Stark theme. in here and all that sort of stuff like that. That really got to me, got me. That's my pick as well. I think it's easy. I mean, like, what are the runners-up? The runners-up are like the hearing the stark theme in the opening episode, perhaps.

Yes. Or the beginning of episode, too. Those are the other contenders. Exactly. I did weirdly really, I was really struck by the score in Allison's trip to bigger bathtub. Something about that really. Are we going with bigger bathtub or pond? Chris requested. Where do we land?

Bigger bathtub is funny every time. Oh, man. Because any time we say big bathtub, it makes me think of like the bathtub lobby, you know, like the whole of the conspiracy of the bathtub manufacturers. Oh, no. Have you been influenced again by Big Bathton? Perhaps. Perhaps I have. I do love a bathtub. Oh, my God.

I love a bath. We love to listen to the watch and the bath. I know you do. That's B time. All right. We have two awards left. Fitwatch. Who's your drip lord of the season?

I will confess to you right now that I completely miss this in the notes for some reason, but the answer is so easy. It's laughable. It's Simon Strong. Of course. Yeah. When I said Simon was coming back for another thing, this is it. I was like where?

I forgot that we were doing this. These like lush plum velvet. Threaded with gold and more layers and drapes than, like leaves on the cabbages that his cooks are preparing for splendid. Oh, yeah. Truly no notes. Why is Heron Hall in a crumbling disarray? Because Simon has to get his fit on.

So there we go. Why are the coffers empty? Relatable content. Great stuff. Speaking of visual splendor, I'd like to take us now to our final award. And it is, of course. I mean, what else could it be? Wigwatch.

TM with Joanna Robinson. T.M. Do you wear wigs? Usually this is like a corner where I critique things. And I do, here's my main critique of the season. This is the wig that I would like to see improved in season three. And it is Alice Rivers, who I like, I love the length and the, and like how it hangs down to her waist and the curly ends. But her hair line, the edge is there.

It's hard because Gil Rankin has like a low natural hairline. So I think it's hard to lay a wig on her. And I know that like, I don't know the timing of it. if her, like, bleached hair that she has right now for Cabaret was, like, at all a factor. I don't know. But, like, I would like to see something a little bit better on the hairline for her next season. But the length and all the rest of the wichiness of it, top tier, great. And then I would just say overall, I think the blonde Targaryen wigs were so much better this season.

I think, like, Raynees didn't have that, like, weird beehive wig this season. I think the grief wigs we got for like Reneer on episode one or Damon as he can like continues to lose his marbles and heron haul. Like I thought all of that stuff worked really well. Amon's, you know, sleek flat iron legoloss versus agon's like I woke up like this of all of that. I thought the Targaryen wigs were really good this season. But which stuff deserves slightly better wig in season three. So that is my wish. I love it.

grief wig is just a great turn of phrase. Remarkable stuff from you as always in Woodwatch. Grief wig is almost as important to me as Depression Beard, which is like a true passion of mine. Of course. Yeah. I am not a wig scholar, and so I usually have nothing to contribute in Wingwatch. But I just want to take a moment to say, like, I'm really glad we've mentioned this at the beginning of the season and in our 900 trailer breakdowns. Glad we left the Jace wig behind and went with the natural curls.

Fantastic choice. I saw an interview with the hair and makeup person. And I guess it was like last minute. The wig that they fitted Harry Colette with in season one was like a last minute. I forget what happened. He cut his hair. I don't know. But it was like no one was happy with that like.

No one was like, yeah, we really crushed you with that mullet in season one. And so the hair person asked Harry Collette to grow out his hair as long as he could. And he got like, it was much longer than it wound up being in the show. like his, if you follow him on Instagram, like, he got it, like, quite long. And so she trimmed it up and she, like, she's like, took it to the writer. She's like, I think we should go with this. And they, like us, were like, surely you cannot grow that much hair in such a short passage of time. And she was like, come on.

It looks so good, though. And they were like, it does look like. We'll ask a question once and then we'll all move on. Yeah. Yeah. It looks great. Great stuff. Okay.

Those were the season's superlatives. Nice trip down memory lane. It already feels like a long time ago. It's been a week and a half. Wonderful to return to Westrose. We're not done yet. We've got a few. We're going to do a little mini mailbag here before we get to the book look ahead.

I said more of those little bird call. Duty is sacrifice. It eclipses all things. Even blood. All men of honor must pay its price. Okay, now it's time for us to perform our duty. And that is, of course. by answering some mailbag questions.

Before we get into the mailbag, I would love our listeners. Just in case they haven't heard it. I don't know. I can't remember if you've been doing it on The Midnight Boys. Steve is an incredible Craig Stark impression. It's so much better than mine. Steve, will you, will you hit us with that?

Stark's never forget their rules. Beautiful. Loved it. Thank you. Thank you, Stephen. Steve is an uncanny impressionist. Like, we get these voice memos on our phones. Like, all of us will be in there, like,

doing our own, like, funny little impressions and Steve's like, here's a Rada-level masterclass and then a regional accent, and we're all, like, pack it up, let's go home. Okay. That's far too good stuff. Thank you, Joe. You're welcome, Steve. You're the best.

Okay, mailbag. Do you want me to read these questions? Tramaine asks, love the show. All I want to know is, what are the Hot D-GOT spinoffs that no one but How Savar is asking for? Okay. Great question. These are spoiler-free questions, then we have some mailbags sort of sprinkled into our book look-ahead question.

So this is still like safe in terms of like book stuff. Yeah. We're really just here to talk about the Orioles as you'll discover in a few minutes. Mallory, you want to go? I'm going to redefine the parameters of the question slightly and make it talk to thrones instead of House of Arr. And then I will be selecting the daily Kristen and Gawain travel log. I want these as web episodes. I do.

A lot of love on this. I don't think we got enough time with them at the end. And I am yearning. This is like the yearning tendrils for me. I want to check in with them every day. I want like a two and a half minute episode every day to like know what they're up to between seasons. So that's my pick. Did you ever watch that, that wine show where like, it was Matthew Reese.

And, yeah, and Matthew Good, right? Yeah, yeah. But I wanted to as enthusiasts of, yeah, just watching them travel around. I think it was just called the wine show, traveling around drinking wine for Gwain and Coles. Right? Like, that's what we want for them. Sounds fantastic. Or like they could.

With Gwain's. This would be very of a piece with what you just said. You know that Gawain is an enthusiast of inns. Oh, ins. Checking out the ins. Yeah. And there was only one bed. And what were they going to do?

Yeah. Okay. Do you have a pick? Easily. I really think this is, I think you can convince the people to tune in for your show. I do think this is maybe only Alasvar wants this, which is Which Stuff Go, starring Alice Rivers and Simon Strong. Based on the way that the listenership was like, I feel like there was too much which stuff, I say, give me more which stuff. As you know, I would enthusiastically co-send this pie.

And I would be there throughout the development process and then I would consume it gladly. You know, when we did our live show, is that where we got COVID and took us weeks to recover? Who could say? We pitched some spinoffs to each other that, you know, we thought the other person might like. And one of the ones that I pitched to you that didn't win. Another pitch that involved, it was Bachelor in Paradise, Brenda, Brennock was what won, ultimately. I just don't think that would be good. But one of the pitches I had was kitchen confidential heron haul, and I still think that would be great. And I would really like that.

Ghost therapy with Alice Rivers. Everyone goes to ghost therapy. And like, you know, we get to cure everyone in Westrose. Yes. That's a great one. And you meet a new person every episode. If it's wish I'd go with Alice Rivers and Simon Strong, it's she's a barn owl, curse to live in human form. He's a trip lord who just can't keep his house together. I would watch. I would set the season pass. This summer on which stuff go. How many episodes are you thinking?

Okay. We're going to do three, five episode seasons. Three five episode seasons. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Leave the people wanting more. Yeah.

BBC style. Okay. I was going to pitch Homeward Bound, Cheeses, Dog. But then I realized everyone would want that. Actually, everyone would want that. Where you're trying to get home to, though? I don't know. That's what we would find out somewhere.

I hope because it pains me, it fills me with sorrow to think of that poor pup still sitting there, like, looking for someone to love and someone to love him. It just breaks my fucking heart. You know, he really should have gone in the cart with Agon and Laris. Don't you think Agon and Laris need a little dog? Don't you think Agon needs a little, like, therapy dog. I do.

I do. Great selections. I like forward to watching all of them. I was waiting for you to pitch law and order the disappearance of Talia, but you didn't. I don't think even House of R is clamoring for that. Okay, maybe Miguel Sampaschina can get that off the ground.

Okay, Chase says, before the hot D finale, viewers were treated to a preview of the Dunkin' Egg series Night of the Seven Kingdoms. My question is simple. How do you think a series set 100 years after House of Dragon can exist?

without spoiling the plot resolution of the earlier series. Are they simply going to avoid mention the end of the Dance of Dragons, even though one of the main characters is a direct descendant of the Targaryen dynasty? I mean, we should say, there's a lot. There's Targaryians all over the joint. Oh, yeah. In Duncan Egg and the Seven Kingdoms, that show. Here's a spoiler for Fire and Blood and Dance the Dragons.

I'm wildly comfortable telling you guys. Targaryans win. They're Targaryans on the throne. when all of this is done. And you know that because all the way up to the Mad King Aris, we have Targaryes of the Throne. Now, if you want real spoilers to the Dancer Dragons, you're going to have to watch Game of Thrones because it is in there, Joffrey. Very helpfully spoils all the Dancer dragons on Game of Thrones. Avoid those scenes.

You don't want to know. Shereen talks about it. It's not great. Okay? So, like, that's in Game of Thrones. I don't think it'll actually be that hard because there's actually a different Targaryian conflict that is the main thing that in the recent, more recent past that Duncan Egg is more ensnared in. So they have plenty to talk about in terms of like Targary and Civil Wars.

There's a more recent one. So I don't think that they need to even worry about talking about dance the dragons. What do you think? I'm, yeah, I'm not concerned about this. I think while as you noted there are a ton of Targaryen figures in the story right from the jump. And, you know, the state of the Targaryan dynasty is, of course, a part of the interest of the story. It's not like a show that is set at least initially and predominantly the novellas that we have so far in the halls of power in that way. It's just a different kind of story.

Yeah. You know, we're much more like adventure, swords and shields, coming of age tale out. in the world. On the road. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think it's easily avoidable. As you noted, I, thinking more broadly about, like, I've shared my concerns about

this many times on many prior pods, just the overall emphasis and centrality of the Targaryians in the spinoffs and what we know is coming still and, like, we're going to get at Gons conquest. And I think a Blackfire rebellion story is inevitable if these shows keep doing well. Like, at some point, this will become a larger concern. like how are these stories stepping on each other or spoiling each other? But I think Duncan Egg and House of the Dragon can coexist pretty, pretty comfortably. Yeah.

It's a good question, but I'm not really worried about it. I don't think the, I don't think the viewership needs to be. And I think there also is that larger question that we talked about in the finale of like, again, we're not worried. We think this will be navigable. But how concerned is the House of the Dragon show running team with spoiling its own story anyway? I don't think that's increasingly a question that we have. Yeah.

So they don't seem that worried, I guess. Um, okay. Kyle, this is a comment more than anything else. We were like, why aren't Jason Bella having sex, uh, Bella having sex? Uh, if I were a teen and, and war was imminent, I certainly would. Um, Kyle wrote Jace, a bastard would wait for marriage because like Johnny's all torn up about bastard. He wouldn't want a father one with Bela until they're married.

I think that's a decent point that I don't think that I had like really, you know, put him in the John Snow camp of like, I don't want a father a bastard. That being sad, why aren't Baila and Jason married? I mean, this goes to our next question from Liz, who says this whole war started because of disputed succession. Why isn't anyone freaking out with the lines of succession for the current queen and king? Feels like Jason Bala should be married already and trying to have kids and feels like somebody should be more worried that Acon has no male error and cannot make another, right?

Or am I overlooking a show Universe Blonde baby shouldn't aim in as the current air be trying to shore up his line. I think this is a really solid point from Liz. What do you, what do you think about urban? Yeah. So on the Jace front, I do think it's an interesting note from Kyle and a, you know, actually the kind of like connection across slices of the universe and characters that I typically really enjoy. Yeah. I don't know that. And I think it's valid and reasonable to assume that Jace would feel that way. I don't know that we should assume that like every bastard feels this way, though. I think that Jace's preoccupation with being a bastard makes it a reasonable question to ask.

Completely. Yeah, I agree. I don't think every bastard feels that way, but Jace, as you say, this is his, maybe even more overtly than John his preoccupation. I do think, though, fucking your betrothed is different from worrying about fathering a bastard on, you know, to paraphrase Sam, Roz with her perfect tits. Like, it's not the same thing. If Jason Baila were fucking and Baila got pregnant, they could just very quickly get

married. This wouldn't be like a random bastard out in the world. They could make this, they could keep this. I agree to a certain step, but the follow of question is like, why aren't they getting married? So, okay, in the book, here's a, here's a quote we have. Munkin says the prince did not wish to wed until the war was over. Whilst mushroom claims Gassaris was already married to Sarah Snow, the mysterious bastard girl from Winterfell. As we talked about in the first episode, there were just these kind of like, of the many competing tales and conflicting unreliable narrators. A thread of Jason's trip north is that there was this woman named Sarah Snow who he met and fell in love with. And there are accounts that dispute that, right? But they were like,

we only have one time for, we only have time for one scene. So we're not doing Sarah Snow. You're going to get mere moments up north with our guy, Craig, at the wall. So I am inclined to agree with you and say that like if we were embroiled in war and conflict and everybody felt imperiled at every point, like, let's get married and let's lock it up. And so to Liz's question, you know, I think that Vassaris, if we think back to what Vassaris said to Reneira in season one, you must marry, strengthen your own claim, shore up your succession, multiply. As to your match, make it yourself, search them out, find one that pleases you as I did. So the pleases you, butrole the part is already set, should Reneira be thinking about what Viseras was thinking about

and making sure, because Rainer has plenty of air, plenty of kids, but that the line, Jace is my heir, who is Jace's air? Let's get that in motion so that we can show strength across generations.

It's a really good question to ask. As we've talked about many times on the pod, I'm confounded by leaving Maylor out of the show for a few reasons, but this in particular. Like, Egon has another son in the book and he just doesn't in the show. And so people,

the combination of the act, absence of mailor after Prince Jeharis was, Ma'ad! Madad! People should be asking about this because now Egon and this part would not have traveled more widely yet, but he's impotent.

He cannot father another male heir. And Team Green is not going to prop up Jehara as Egan's heir because, as Laris said, when Alicent was making her push to be regent in the fifth episode, like, what would it say if in response to her nearest crowding, we raised up a woman of our own. Do you think of Otto?

We're still there. He would be pressing Amund to get married and start popping out babies. This is the thing. Obviously from Agon's perspective, Amon thinking about this is a threat. Yeah. But Amid and Amon's advisor should be thinking about this. This is also yet another area in which Darren not being in the story yet is also like weird.

Because you just have like a larger sense of what all of the potential like lines of succession across both sides are. So they're just missing, like, characters. Obviously, Darren has been acknowledged to Mailor is just not in the show. So that's different. But in terms of Jason Bela, the only other thing I'll say is, like,

I don't think Bela would want to give up the war to be pregnant. Give up dragon riding right now to be pregnant. I agree. But, like, if Reneer is like, for the greater good of the line or whatever. Rina, I need you to go babysit. and then go to Pento is the place where your mother died.

Bye. Yeah. So why isn't Renner making the ass? Because I think a completely reasonable question. Yeah, that was a good email. That was a good question. It's interesting. Alia asks, for those of us not tune in to the MLB, not the MLB, not the MLB, MLB.

All of the fate of the beloved A's in our Coliseum, Alia is from Oakland. Can you give us an update on how the O's are doing? Is it still their year, Mallory Rubin? Thanks for asking. I appreciate it. You know, if we had done this pot a couple days ago, I would have said the Orioles, the Baltimore Orioles, your Baltimore Orioles were the first team in baseball to 70 wins.

Best record in the sport first place in the American League East. Lamentably, mere days later, I'm forced to tell you that they've fallen into second place behind the fucking Yankees. They are still first in the wild card. They're only a half game back at the moment of recording of the Yankees. You know, it's been an interesting stretch. they've been struggling a bit. The bullpen is in shambles.

Starting rotation injuries just simply will not cease. And, you know, I hope that they have a really strong September. I still believe in the team. I couldn't be more thrilled right now watching Tony Taters. Smash home runs. It's been amazing to see Jackson Holiday come back up and thrive. Would it have been my preference this season for Kyle Braddish, means Tyler Wells to all have elbow surgery and now for Grayson Rodriguez to also be on the

IL and for Danny Colombe to be in the IL and Felix Petista to miss the season. It would not be my preference for that many pitchers to have arm injuries. No, that's been hard. That's been hard. But could it be their year? Why the fuck not? Oriole Magic. Feel the magic.

Let's go! You know, he's having a worse year than the Orioles. And the Orioles are not having a terrible year. They're having a great year. We should say, We're brothers. It's having a really bad year. They just posted a $10 billion loss, by the way. in like a less like since the finale like the last three year three months so i just want to say

that's a factor it's such a huge factor in why we got an eight episode season which is not what the writers wanted Warner brothers as a company has been struggling there's like a fear that zazlov is going to like sell it off for parts or like whatever there's just like a lot of uncertainty happening at the parent company so when people direct their iris which I really just go outside and stare at a cloud, I'd say instead of writing like shitty stuff on the internet. But if you want to address it towards someone, I wouldn't address it towards the writers on this show because it was not their hope and wish and prayer to have an eight-episode season.

So something I think about. Well, last one at least in this spoiler free mail bag, I just want to shout out our listener, Jay sent us this truly extraordinary lizard email. Astonishing stuff from Jay. I forward it to Mallory. Mallory, Mallory, anything you want to say about Jay's lizard email?

I want to compliment Jay's seamless incorporation of passages from the text. Yes. This was a master class. It was a great email. And Jay reminded me in the email,

I might have asked in the email that he wrote that like Moth email when we were covering Asoka and that was also an extraordinary email. So yeah, just like Jay, I don't know if Jay's auditioning to write for the bringer.com or what a great website or whatever. But like, yeah, just the, like, excellent use of quotes.

I thought you were going to compliment the shoes, the Adidas slides, that made it into the photos. I do love a slide, as you know. Of the lizard. Anyway, great stuff about, from Jay about how lizards, dragons are lizards. They're not cats. They're not dogs. They're lizards. And that was, you know.

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I love this new. I do it in travel by content all the time. I do it to like Neil and Dave all the time. All right. It is time at last for the previously mentioned book Look Ahead. So if you don't want to hear us talk about things that are going to happen in the future on House of the Dragon because they happen in the future in fire and blood. This is where you leave us and this is where we leave you and we look forward to seeing you hopefully in mere days for the height meter. Hopefully for rings of power.

Certainly we hope to see you back. two years for House of the Dragon season three and many times in between. Please. I mean, we've heard from a lot of people saying like,

I'm going to miss you guys. I'm like, we're here. We're here every week, multiple times per week. Rings of Power is such a fun show that we have a really good time.

Like, I love it. Season one was eight episodes. I mean, they're long, but like it's completely achievable to catch up before season two.

Actually, I'm not, this is going to sound like a lie. It's true. I actually have a little bit more fun covering rings of power with you than House the Dragon with you. I know you do. Yeah. I think that sounds like a lie. You're on the record with your... I don't think you think it's a lie. I think some of our listeners might think it's a lie, but it's genuinely true. I really love covering that show with you.

Like, I love George R. Martin, but I am a Tolkien girlie. And would you say that the professor is always welcome? He's always welcome. And so it's just such a fun, like above and beyond the show itself, which has real high highs. And then some like bumping. rough spots that we're more than happy to talk about. Getting to like marinate in the Tolkien concepts for weeks at a time is just right up our alley. So we'll see you in Middle Earth. Wonderful. I can't wait.

I can't believe it's only a couple weeks from now. Season one was so fun. So fun to cover. All right. If you don't want to hear the book stuff, we love you. Goodbye. Everyone else? No time for amusement, Thailand.

It's the book. Look ahead. I used to think I knew what it was to claim a dragon. But I understand now that what I thought I knew is ash in the wind. Okay, Joanna, here's the question, is what we thought we knew. I want to come up for Thailand, by the way, who started this season with the indignities of being like a hobby horse for a baby prince and got himself, I don't know, pirate harem by the end of this season. Great job, Tyler. Just a whole.

scene where he mud rustled. Yeah. Okay. Book, look ahead. Let's hit some of the things we were really looking forward to thinking about now that we've seen the full season and know how it ended and where we're leaving certain characters and how we're setting up things that are still to come. We have to start with your faves, Egan and Langeras. I guess one of my first questions for you here is... Egan, Larry.

I'm... I don't... Larry, I like. I don't know if I'm ready to call. this egg on egg. Egg. I don't know. Egg two. Egg the elder. Do you think?

Yeah, I mean, yes. Poached egg? Scrambled egg? Burnt eggs. Easy egg? Cajas out. Geez. Is Laris

Sending Egg on to Dragonstone in Desiremberg. as he does in fire and blood and then returning to, you know, staying and hiding in Kings Landing. Or are they actually going to Esos for a bit? Like, I have two questions here. One, is there going to be a difference in where they both immediately go and then relatedly in what our level of awareness is and when? Because like, these are reveals. When we learn that that Egon is like waiting on Dragonstone.

Like, are we going to be with him every step of the way and have access to everything that happens? Or will we have that like, oh, holy shit, he was hiding out there? So the book we should say that Reneer takes Kings Landing and is situated in Kings Landing. And then when she has to sort of like flee back to Dragonstone, oops, Agon's there. And shit goes bad for Reneer because Agon still burnt, but feeling much better, is on Dragonstone. I feel like thus far The show has been unable To absent a character

Like Damon You know or Reneer out Not that I want them to But like I think since Agon is like I don't know their fourth most important character And that felt really weird when Otto Just like very strange with Otto You're right

Otto is a good example I think what this all depends on and we're going to get to this at the end of all of this is sort of like when we think we're near coming back to Dragonstone and confronting Aigon is going to happen. I feel like that's going to be like three quarters of the way through season four. Yeah. So like. Maybe later.

Yeah. Yeah. So maybe they will just invent a whole adventure for Laris and Agon in Esos. With the goat fuckers. Does that sound fun? I don't know. They're our favorite duo, so, you know, I don't know. I don't know what they're going to do with them. I'm very curious. Is it connected to the auto? Autos in a cage plot? You know what I mean? Like, and we don't know what's happening with Otto in the cage. So. No, we don't. Still no fucking clue what's going on with that. No. Yeah, like, I'm torn on this because when you get to that moment in fire and blood, I mean, again, for both of them, like, for the club,

had never left King's Landing, as would soon be revealed. That's, like, just a really fun, exciting thing to read. But when you get to Dragonstone and you're with Renera and you're with Agon the third, the blood drained from the queen's cheeks when she beheld the bodies. But young Prince Agon was the first to realize what they meant. Mother flea shouted but too late. It's like, it's just incredible. I think it's going to go for that.

Little blonde toddler to be like motherfully. Hold on to that because we've got some other moments to talk about on that front. But I just don't, I don't want to leave. I don't think we can leave Egon. No. So I think it's to invent a whole like. Yeah. Like structurally also the way that we then kind of like, it's revealed to us what happened,

you know, with like hiding out among the fisher folk and then Sunfire and Egon making their way back to each other. We'll talk about Sunfire more in a minute. And then of course the Egon Sunfire, Bala Moon Dancer fight. All of that kind of like unfolds for us, but the show doesn't work in that way. Like, especially where that's going to happen, presumably in the story. We wouldn't like take a long 20 minute pause to go watch what had happened. That just seems impossible.

Previously, this is how Moond Dancer died. Like, no, I agree. I am really looking forward to watching Egon fuck up his jump and his legs just like shatter. I'm really looking forward to that. This poor fucker. Oh, man. Great stuff. Here's a question, given how gripped we've been by this relationship, by this duo.

How you feeling? Give me a temp check on what we are eventually building toward, which is Laris's role in the poisoning of that gone. It'll just depend on how they write it, honestly. I think there's a version of it that is, like, conflicted for. Laris that is like either for the greater good of the realm or the greater good of Laris himself or a mercy kill of swords or something like that. You know what I mean? I think there's a way in which to...

I'm not trying to turn Laris into a good guy. He's not. I love that about him. But he's not a good guy. But like I imagine it'll be just much more complicated in the show version. Yeah. I'm really excited. I'm excited because the way that...

I was going to say the enigma of Laris and then realize... it's literally the passage. The enigma that is Laris Strong, the club foot, rude, has vexed students of history for generations. Like, the more we can interrogate that complexity and get little glimpses, however small, are still mysterious into what drove a given decision, the better, I just can't, I just can't wait.

And I like, too, because there's so, there is so much mystery around Agon's death and the nature of the poisoning. But I always love that line in the book, like, yet whilst the hand that poisoned the arbor red will never be known, we can have no doubt. doubt that it was done at the behest of Laris Strong. Great stuff.

Sunny. Should we talk about Sunfire? Okay. I'm just like perplexed by this. If you're listening to this and you haven't read the book, Sunfire's alive. And it has quite a role to play. And literally cannot be killed because Sunfire is how Renera dies. And there's no way the history could have gotten that wrong.

Like that's too much of a, well, the history is that it written. Like, there's no way the history got Sunfire roasting Reneira alive, like, wrong. So can I just say my- In that particular, like, you know, Agon's dragon roasting and eating his sister, like what that feels like it symbolically represents about this civil war, like a family tearing itself apart. It's just, like, I don't know that you can sub that for something else. And also Sunfire has to kill Grey Ghost and Moon Dancer.

Like, Sunfire's got a lot of work to Dula. Well, that's if they even do Grey Ghost. I'm not confident they're even going to do great ghost at all. But definitely Sunfire has to kill Moon Dancer. I think I feel in my heart of hearts that there's a version of this season that ends with what Neil over on trial by content has been calling the beginning of the Sunfire revenge tour. Which is like because we hear that Mouten is going to Rook's rest. This is something that is like a line in the show. We're going to Rook's rest.

Sunfire long in the dying, is still alive. This is my favorite moment of Talk the Thrones without question was us after the finale, talking about this in the dressing room. And Chris Ryan almost did a spit take with a cupcake going like, when that dude's alive about Sunfire. That does alive? Yeah, Sunfire lives. Oh, man.

And people are going to be really confused. And I have to believe that there was a version of this in the finale. where we got the forces at Rooks Ress torched by Sunfire And I have to wonder again if this is a budgetary Sadly a budgetary choice because When I was asking Dave about like What are the dragons left that they have to model

And he was like they It's a whole different model For a burnt sunfire That's a different model. You can't just like slap some char on your existing Sunfire model. So in terms of Dragon Design, Tasarian is a model that needs to be like designed and rendered. And Burt Sunfire is a model that needs to be designed and rendered.

So like I feel like they did not have the budget to do just like one more dragon. But they could have just like had these guys walking into the tree line and then like a burst of fire and screams or something like that. That also sounds kind of costly to do, but less costly than maybe designing a whole dragon. But you got to give us something on Sunfire. Or like even just like have this maybe wouldn't have felt satisfying, but it wouldn't have certainly wouldn't have felt as confusing. Like have somebody say Sunfire's wing is too badly damaged. Like he's too hurt to take flight.

He's like healing. I mean, that wouldn't have been the most like, scintillating TV, but it would. Or there have been weird, weird rumors of the body's disappearing at restaurants or something. And they were all gone. Someone's hungry. I don't know, because I think the long and the dying Christian language, like as we talked about when we were covering that episode, that actually does, that is actually akin to saying he was still alive when I left. Like, it was thinking forever to die. And then there's that weird Renera line at the end.

You're like, okay, well, maybe word just hasn't spread that Sunfire is actually alive. But then, like, multiple episodes later having Eggon say, my dragon is dead and almost trying to. trying to like cement that impression with the viewership felt really weird to me. Because this is another time where the wait, like, dude, it's going to be two years. So long before the next season. And then I would presume unless we have a moment with Mouton at Rook's Rest early in the season and we learn Sunfireers Live, which hopefully we will, it's going to be a minute before we get this confirmation. And I worry that at that point, people are going to be like, wait, what? And it's not going to feel like satisfying.

It's just going to be confusing. We were talking about on trial by content about how that might be a sick cold. open for season three of House of Dragons. But our listener Grover, not a tully as far as I know, Roney Mill says, that points out that long in the dying, Kristen's language is a sort of

maybe lift from the book Game of Thrones where Sandor Klegain talking about Brand says the boy is a long time dying. Of course, Brand lives. As does Sunny, the Sunfire. Sunning came home with a vengeance. I, yeah, I think it's, when I asked Condal about Sunfire, his answer was, I encourage everyone to go and buy fire of blood and read the book. So, like, they have, a lot of people who have been trying to solve, like, how do they do this without Sunfire?

They're not doing it without Sunfire. They're definitely. That would be impossible. Definitely bringing Sunfire back. It's just odd storytelling to pretend. that he's dead, just for the sake of this, I guess, the surprise later when we find out he's not, I have to think it's budget. But, you know, I don't know for certain. I also feel like on the one hand, what we got from Egon again, we talked about how that was a scene we absolutely loved was quite impactful, like Egonne feeling like he has nothing left. Would Egon have left with Laris if he had known Sunfire was alive?

longing to return to and be reunited with his dragon. I mean, obviously, like, them discovering each other and making the way back to each other in that question in the book of, like, did Sunfire sense Agon's need? Like, I'm here for that reunion. That's great. You love a boy and his dragon. I do. I love a boy and his dragon, and I really love the...

They found themselves face to face with, quote, a dead man and a dying dragon line in the book. Just great. Great stuff, George. Speaking of deaths. Or budgetary cuts. Gullet. Battle of the gullet. It feels like, I actually think,

I actually think they don't have to do the Battle of the Gullet in episode one if they don't want to. They could do it in episode two. Like there's time enough for like building of attention. But actually, given the response of like, where's the action at the end of season? to it might behoove them actually to just like launch with a big battle and just be like, here we go, here's that fighting you were asking about.

We're going to talk about all the battles that they have left. And we were trying to do some of this math on trial by content as well, but it's just sort of like they almost have to have a battle like almost every single episode if they're going to do every single battle that's left. Not a lot of time for breaks. Because Condal implied that we should expect eight episode seasons for the final two seasons as well. So only 16 more episodes and a lot of battles to come.

Yeah. The gullet. Yes. I can't fucking wait. Our listener Jeff asks, and we both kind of obsessed with this. This is an incredible idea. What are your guys' thoughts and the possibility that Ulf might be responsible for Jace's demise at the Battle of the Gullet? After the way that Jason's been treating him lately, I wouldn't put it past Ulf to play a hand in Jason's death.

Maybe Ulf has a chance to save him and passes it up. I'm sure it won't look deliberate since he's turning on Renera later. Okay, so like Battle of the Gullet, the two blonde toddlers. who are on the ship with one teeny tiny hatchling still wet from the egg dragon. Yes. The gay abandon will sail right into the triarchy's teeth in episode one. Yeah. For sure.

Besieged by pirates, etc. Jace, who has been itching to go into battle on Burmax, will fly into battle the dragon's seeds, if we're following what happens in the book, the dragon's seeds join him. you know, Seas Smoke is there, Silver Wing, Silver Wing is there, Verbathor is there. So like... And she'll steal her nettles, so we'll...

And sheepseller, yeah, so she'll steal and Rana. Spectacular debut. Will Rana come through and actually save the children, who's to say? And Jace dies. The first Vormax goes down and then Jace still alive gets hit by a crossbow. So like, will Vormax go down and Ulf could save Jace on, like, off a piece of driftwood or whatever and then like doesn't or what I don't know I think I think that's really fun in the vein of like amen and agon like people like j and then and then jace dies not just from like rushing into battle

when other people advise caution but also as a result of like his fairly like classes shitty behavior over the last couple episodes if this is like sort of what bites a man I don't know what do you think I thought you're going to say the validity of his fear also true I was right yeah at least I was right. Oh, man. I really, like, I really like this theory. Yeah. This is, this feels totally in bounds.

And, like, you know, one of the things from fire and blood that really makes you feel before, first Humbleton, before Olf and Hugh turn cloak, one of the things that, like, starts to give you that pit in your stomach after Gullet is the line, like, about Ollman. about Ulf and Hugh celebrating and drinking. And like, you know, meanwhile, you've got Corliss, like, if this is victory, like, I don't want to win another. Everyone is just like in a state of absolute shock and despair. And then we've got, Mushroom tells us there were two men on Dragonstone that night who drank to the slaughter in a smoky tavern beneath the castle, the dragonriders, Hugh the hammer and Ulf the White.

So, and like then you get that, you know, Oulf laughing to Hugh saying, we're knights now truly, high on that, we should be lords. So like, that, that president. just of like Ulf's greed and ambition and lust, which of course was very central on the Dragon Seed dinner. Something like that after we watch him maybe like do something horrific. But then of course, also the other thing that's hard not to think about is that moment between Adam and Ulf at the dinner with like we have time enough to, yeah, like see who is a

coward. And so maybe it's like, yeah, if we see Ulf like spooked, because it's always striking when you're reading Gullet, which is one of my favorite stretches in the book. books. Not a unique opinion. Many people feel this way. This is why they keep saying they've got to really crush this and nail this, right? Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell, meaning Vermax. So like, there's a mystery already there of like, how did this happen? What happened? And there's a lot there with Jace's character that's going to be like rich to mine. But it's complete, there's completely room here. There's enough room here to play with like,

Oof having some role out of. cowardice out of foolhardy, yeah, ambition, out of malice, anything. Like, I really like this idea from Jeff. I think, I think this is going to happen. Now I can't get this out of my head. It feels like they, we were talking about how they were just going so hard on this Ulf and J stuff in the last few episodes. And this did not occur to me as like when. And yeah, we were sort of confused because they don't have much to do. You know, Jace is going to die soon. And then what Ulf does later has nothing to do with Jace really. So like, why were they doing this? If it's a gullet setup, I think that's interesting.

You want to talk about the tiny, tiny babies and tiny dragons for a second? Yeah, listen. So the way this works in the book, Agon hops on StormCloud when they get attacked and flies off for help. Yes. And then Storm Cloud is like, that was too much for me. Yes. Done. It's very sad.

And then Viseris like disguises himself and hides the ex. And so like... It is a long time until he is discovered. Very long time. He's off to Esos to become, I don't know, a pirate babe. Who knows? These kids are too young to do this. They literally can't do this now.

I just don't understand this. So, and there isn't a character with them on the gay band. We don't know any of those like eerie men that went with them or whatever. There isn't like a character who could like hide Viseris in a way, you know, unless we like meet them in episode one. So I mean, it's not too hard of a fix for Jace to hear about what's happening out on the bay from, you know, someone sends a raven or something like, you know, it doesn't have to be a blonde toddler on a teeny tiny bat-sized dragon. you know what I mean? Like that doesn't have to happen necessarily. It seems like it won't.

But the Vesaris part, the way the Vesaris, like, hides. I'm the other way on it. I feel like Vesaris can just, like, be taken captive. He can just be kidnapped. He can just be scooped up. Like, I guess then we have some complexities about, like, you know, his identity, which, yeah, there's some stuff to figure out there. You're completely right.

For me, though, like with Egon, does he have to fly back on Storm Cloud and does Storm Cloud have to be riddled with arrows and die? I guess not. There's another way that they can, this will be traumatic for him no matter what. Also, our guy, egg on the younger, has a lot of trauma still to come. He's not going to be short on trauma at the end of this.

But only nine he had never flown before and he would never fly again. For Storm Cloud have been terribly wounded as he fled the gay abandoned. And also just like the regret that he carries, he would never forgive him. All the joy had gone out of the boy. he would never forgive himself for leaping onto Storm Cod and abandoning his little brother to the enemy.

These are like crucial things that shape his character. And obviously the Dragon Bane moniker and like that idea, it's other stuff is involved with that in terms of the dying of the dragons. It just depends. This feels like crucial, doesn't it? I actually disagree. Tell me why. Convincy me this is going to be okay. Only because I don't think the show ever plans to bring these children out of toddlerhood.

So is the show? I mean, we were going to get to this later, but is the show? not going to end with egg on crowning? Here's my main conviction I have about the ending of the show. And I could easily be wrong. I think the show and the writers

and everyone making the show is like Reneira is our main character. And I think when Reneer dies, I do not think there is much show after that. Right. So like I... But like there could be like two episodes.

I think we are only one episode after Reneer Reneer dies. Yeah. I think that's it. And like, whether, however much we like yada yada through or whether or not we leave it much earlier than people are we're expecting, because they're like, what about the hour of the wolf? What about this, that, and the other thing? Like, what about all the stuff that is? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I think we're going to end this with the blonde babies still being being babies. And so being back to their character doesn't really much matter, you know? Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Hmm. All right. I'll noodle on it. Because they said there's no more time jumps, right? And so like...

But could they still expand the timeline slightly? I mean, they're so fucking young, though. It's like, he's not going to be nine. This is like, we have a version of this with Jop. Oh, yeah. Jophe is so young and so much younger than he's supposed to be. Little toddler baby. Try to ride Syracs.

Try to ride Syracs. And die horribly? Boy. I mean, it's painful enough when he's... It's older. Like if like a little... That description is so tough in the book. I know.

I feel like that's an occasion where we could just be watching Reneira as that happens. I don't know. Anyway. Interesting. Okay. Well, I will remain puzzled about why these children are so young. I mean, I hope that storm cloud somehow makes it out alive, but I don't think that that can happen. So we'll find out.

Definitely too small to fly. What if he's not? What if they have... What if they're like? Well, the thing about the baby being a baby is, like, less weight for the baby dragon. What if he does it like Mary Poppins with her umbrella and just like holds on to one like dragon leg and is sort of like lifted off that way? I mean, I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

You know? To the gullet on the morrow. But maybe let's stretch the morrow to like, I don't know. Seven years. How quickly can storm cloud grow? Oh, boy. Okay. triarchy, Joe. Anything else on the

triarchy or Loher or Stepstones front? Are you like thinking ahead to the calamities that await in the eventual daughter's war? Or are you like, there's literally a line in the book that says that is outside the scope of this tale. And so just once again, can't wait to not be thinking about the triarchy

again. I don't think, I mean, I think hmm, Loher has been like a big hit as a character. It has been my understanding. And so I think we're going to get like plenty of Lohar Thailand stuff, but I don't think we're making it to the daughter's war. No, certainly not. Do you think we're going to get Lohar's eventual murder? Probably. Sad. Sad. So many characters have to die.

People are just going to be dying all the time in seasons three and four, just constantly. Like multiple deaths per episode. Maybe multiple deaths per scene. A lot of people and a lot of dragons have to die. We'll get to it in just a second. I want to talk about winter wolves and river people. I'm not saying river men because black alleys on my list. Yeah. So we touched with this a little bit, but like what do we think of cutting?

So we talked about this in the finale pod, the fact that there was footage of Craig Stark marching in front of the winter wolves across the bridge of the twins. Yes. That they filmed it. There's behind the scenes footage of it. And they cut Craig out and just left it with the winter wolves. So in the book, Craig does not come down with the winter wolves. Roddy the ruin, Roderick Dustin, is sort of the leader of the winter wolves. So like, and we're headed towards a fish feed and a tomboeton and, you know, a butcher's ball and all this sort of stuff like that.

So, like, do we think they're going to bring Craig down early, especially if we're not getting our The Wolf or something like that? Or, and or are we getting Roddy the Ruin? Will we get Red Ra? Will we get Black All right? Will we get Longleaf, the Lion's Slayer, Garibald Gray? Like, uh... Fucking better.

Like, all these river people that they had an opportunity to sort of introduce this season, but instead we've got like Peter Piper's here. Oscar Tully's here, like, all this sort of stuff like that. I just want to shout out Garibald Gray for this line. When Kristen Cole is trying to bargain, Norma, I've come to bargain, right? And Kristen Cole is like, if I strike my banners, do you promise us our lives? And Garibald says, I made my promise to the dead. I told them I would build a sept for them out of traitor's bones.

I don't have near enough bones yet. So, I mean, we have to have that. in the show. I mean, I feel similarly about Pade of Longleaf, about Longleaf, the Lion's Slayer. Like, obviously the earning of the moniker by slaying Lord Jason is part of it. But then, like, I mean, another character certainly could get the line, but, you know, we've talked about this previously in other book sections.

Longleaf has one of the lines of the book. Like. To Kristen, you want to say? at the butcher's ball. I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse. We just have to get that moment. I hope that there's room to, like, introduce enough of these characters. There are so many that I don't mind condensing some. But we've got to get Roddy. We have to get Black Alley. We have to. I would love to get Longleaf in there. the Cragen timing is like, I don't know, I guess I don't, I would have liked to see Craig at the end of the season. I would have liked to know for sure that he was going to be like incorporated into the Winter Wolves storyline and just present more consistently earlier. I don't mind them not committing to that to give themselves the flexibility to make a different choice.

I feel, we agree, we just both said this like, we're not going to get out of the wolf. There's just no way the story moves into, like, actively into the regency. But I think Craig coming in a little bit before, egg on the younger's crowning and still being a part of this transitional phase and next step is achievable, even absent the hour of the wolf. So I hope we get Craig sooner, but I guess I'm prepared not to. I'm not quite as prepared to not get some of these other figures who are just so colorful in the book. Nathan, our list of Nathan asked, of all the characters we're expecting to meet in the next two seasons of House the Dragon, Bloody Ben, Shepherd, Unwin Peak, possibly an older version of Egg 3, and of course, fucking Darren the Daring. Who are you most looking forward to and who would you cast in those roles? Love the pod more and more every episode. Thanks, Nathan.

Thanks, how kind? The actual answer is Darren. How could it not be? But my pet, my pet answer is Bloody Ben, who I love. I legitimately can't wait for the lads. I just can't. I love a lad. I want to hit you with a couple, with two casting ideas. I'm terrible at the casting ideas. I just can't. I just don't have, I can't do it. Other than make Charles Melton, Zaden, I've got nothing. I got kind of good at understanding the Nina Gold method. But Kate Rose James is the casting director on House of the Dragon, not Nina Gold. And something that's consistent about Kate Rose James, who also did the casting for race. by wolves is that she keeps using Race by Wolves cast members from that show. I think there have been like three at this point, yeah, and Alan. And Gail Rankin was also in Rays by Wolves

so like that. So she's casting a lot out of this show that she previously cast. So there's a kid that she's used twice in the past called Felix Jameson who actually appeared to see his native Game of Thrones. He played the little boy climbing. You have to see John and Danny's Army arrive in

winter town. Sure. But he's about the right age. And what's true so far, I guess other than Ty Tenet, which doesn't really count, is that she's casting like unknowns for these kids. Like we're not going to cast someone who we like know and recognize as any of these kids. So, but we are happy to cast veteran actors in some of the adult roles. So the only other casting thing I want to mention is the shepherd. Yeah.

We're going to get to a shepherd theory later that I actually really quite like. Oh, interesting. Okay. Mixed. Well, since I'm no longer rooting for Kristen Cole's death, I kind of like it. We'll get to that. It's a popular theory. I kind of like it. I'm excited to hear your take on it. But we're not Tim. We're not the Shepherd is Chris and Cole, actually. We'll talk about it. Peter Capaldi? I have no notes. Zero. Zero. Another option? Yes. Chris for Eccleston. Also fantastic. So those are both great. I think those are really good up. Chris, especially coming off of like the left or the left There was watches that I've been doing, like, this sort of, like, unhaged zealot of a leader. Chris Eccleson is really good at that. And then Capaldi.

Capaldi is capable of being so nasty if he wants to, yet entertainingly nasty and very charismatic. And why not put another doctor in here in here eventually? Yeah, it's great. What is Judy going to do? Let's find out. Yeah, so those are my like casting thoughts. I love it. I love it.

I love that you're like, where do these casting directors tend to pull from the screen? Look at you. Doing the work. Nina Gold would always pull from British theater, which I loved. And Kate Rose James does as well. But like the fact that she keeps like, people have noticed that she is like pillaging from the raised by Wolves gas. I have not seen that show, but Adam has watched it and he's mentioned. He's mentioned it a few times.

Yeah. Okay. Great stop. Bring on the Bloody Ben era. I can't wait for Black Alley. Black Allie. Come on. Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe they end up doing another spin-off and it's just, you know, the Black Alley and Craig Stark.

It is tough that like, it is tough that we spent so much time in the Riverlands. Again, it's like if we count up all the new characters that they introduced, Ulf, Hugh, Simon Strong, Alan and Adam, Alice Rivers, blah, blah, like Oscar Tully, like, if they had introduced all those really fun Riverlanders, like,

that's just like so many new cast members to add. But, you know, bringing them in for season three, you gotta have them. Because, like, with love and respect to, like, I don't know, Lady Malister, whoever these other, like, River Lords and ladies that we've met,

I need, I need these other river people. We're aligned here. Yeah, yeah. Okay, speaking of action in the Riverlands, let's talk a little bit more about Damon's Wearwood Vision, and also we'll hit on Helena's prophecy a little bit here. What do you want to say about the glimpse of the dead dragons

that we got? Because obviously we felt like there were some stuff we could not say here outside of the book section about the possibilities. Do you think this is actually an event from Canon? There are a few possibilities. Or do you, have you come down on the side of, like, this is symbolic of, like,

the death of the Targaryan dynasty in Targaryen strength. You shared concept art in our notes for the finale of like the initial idea was like basically like a sea of dead dragons. Yeah. Because what we got was essentially like what looks like kind of two, maybe three, you know, like. So the dragon in the foreground that you can definitely see some like tattered wings.

But yeah, what else awaits in the background? Hard to say. So like if it's something I would pick the dragon pit. But if it's more just sort of like the dying of the dragons, they're all going to die before this is done. That's sort of more where I'm leading symbolic. Yeah. It's so hard to see and like deliberately like the color palette.

It makes it tougher to, like it could definitely be God's eye. And the thing that is closest to demons. You and I were trying to track how long the neck. Like how long is the camera panning on the neck? He's length neck. Yeah. This could be second Tumbledin. It could be the storming of the pit.

I also kind of like the idea of like the symbolic. just shattering of Targaryen strength. But I guess also that can be true inside of this specifically being gods for example. But yeah, it was so interesting to see that concept art. So interesting.

Joanna, I'd like to take your temperature on the Damon Lives series. This is like a long time, passion point among many readers. And certainly there's more fodder here, right, coming out of the finale. So Damon and Eamon, fight over the gods eye, Kroaxis and Vagar. Amon's body is found with a sword through the other eye.

Great stuff. The dragon's bodies are found. Yep, right? Damon's body is never found? Yep. Mysterious. Is he at the bottom of the gods eye? Has he run off to be with nettles somewhere?

Is he on the Isle of faces forever and after A. men to see the new, you know, sear on the Isle of Faces or something like that. I don't know if they can resist a Damon Lives moment with Matt Smith in the mix. You know what I mean? They're going to, again, we're getting ahead of ourselves on the timing stuff, but like, I have been saying from the start that I think they're going to try to push the gods eye, battle above the gods eye as late as possible so they can keep Matt Smith on the press tour for season four. Yeah.

So, but even if they push it as far back to season four, it has to be early season four. Yeah. So Damon lives so that we get Matt Smith doing other stuff for the rest of the season. Feels, if I are a writer, feels very tempting to me, you know. They could even, like, not reveal that to us until, like, the very thing. I mean, is Thrones going to do a stinger? Like, what do you have that final idea of, like, actually the secret life? And will he turn to the camera and wink?

I love it. I also like to, like, again, not only have people speculated about this for a while, the fact that his body was not found is such rich fodder, but then you have something like in the episode here, you have like, until death or the end of our story. It felt such deliberate language choice to kind of fuel this speculation. And, you know, of course,

had like Condal saying in the panel that you guys did, I would just say that just because the thing is told to you doesn't mean it's going to happen exactly that way. And we've seen obviously in history and all that, that be misinterpreted before, both in the world of fire and blood and in the world of a song of ice and fire. So that could apply to a lot of different aspects

of the tale, including a lot of different aspects of God's eye of the Aman-Daman Showdown. But like, because of this battle, a thing that is adored. A thing that is like, has to be in top three in everybody's most anticipated.

Like, the way that Condo was talking about it, he seems to think God's eye is number one, gullet number two. Like, that's what he thinks is the, yeah. That's, that, yeah. I think that's right.

of what remains is it feels right. So few were on hand to bear witness that it would be some time before word of Prince Damon's last battle became widely known. Like, not a lot of witnesses to what happens here. So again, plenty of room. Yeah. To show us something new. Yeah. This moving of Damon, this idea, this import that Alice's placing on Damon's, like, role and his like being a player on the board and stuff like that.

Him going to the gods eye as like an act of loyalty to Rainira, but also does he have more to do in the story? This idea that Alice says, you're going to die here, like, is he physically going to die or does Damon Targaryen? The legend that is Damon Targaryen die at the gods eye and this person with a different name doing something else. Yeah. On the Isle of Faces, maybe. The Oliver Queen. You know? Yeah.

I love it. something else. I'm into it. I'm really into it. Thrones. So Damon sees Renera sitting on the throne. We've got that Helena line to Egon about Egonne will be king. He's yet to see victory.

He sits on a wooden throne. So this was just really fun, like not only just the adjacency of these glimpses and mentions in the show, but then, you know, again, when we talk about, like, prophecy and how much room there is for characters to misinterpret or misunderstand. Like, yeah, Reneiro's going to sit the throne, but it's not going to go well. I mean, frankly, right from that first moment, the Iron Throne had spurned her, and her days upon it would be few. And then Egon, like, can't walk up those steps to the Iron Throne. What's the word of her? Withered? His withered legs, like stick legs that had been shattered and, like, melted away.

So I just love this as a way to play with the idea of, like, yeah, telling us something or showing us something. But, like, what does it really mean? While we're here, I'm going to read this email from Andrea. Okay. While we're in the realm of prophecy and theories. Andrew says, my question for you both is, what is the favorite theory you have seen for the future of a character? Favorite being something you look forward to, possibly being true or just the most ridiculous. Again, we'll get to the Kristen Cole theory in a second.

I can't wait to hear your takes on the Kristen theory. I don't know. I am enamored of this idea that's been floating around that the end of this show is Allison telling egg on the third, baby egg on the third, the song of ice and fire prophecy, that that's where it all ends. And this is like,

this is, when Condal talks about adapting George, the reference that he goes to more I think than even like Star Wars or anything like that, is he talks about King Arthur. And in the musical Camelot ends with King Arthur telling, you know, dying or about to go to battle and die, King Arthur telling a young boy about like what Camelot was.

And like this idea that the young boy is potentially Sir Thomas Mallory or whatever. But like this idea of like this is, this is, the story. This is the generation I, and I, Allison, as like, the longtime friend of Renira, despite all these things that happened. I, the keeper of this prophecy now, pass it down to you. This is how it gets to you, egg, three. I'm so enamored of that. If we don't get, and which is why I think we're ending it, like, it's going to end so much earlier than people think. If we don't get, I'm so enamored now that I'm worried that if we don't get it, I will be disappointed. So that's sort of where I am.

And then someone pops into the scene and they're like, pretty sure like when, you know, he became Renair's heir, she mentioned this. And then someone else is like, but he was like four. So he doesn't remember. Toddler. I love that. That's really interesting. That's, I definitely think the show ends with with Eggon the third being crowned. And so like this being a part of it, like inheriting that legacy.

And Allison playing a key role in that. embracing, accepting, passing along this thing that she resisted because of what it represented about her, her misunderstanding or mishandling of duty. Fascinating. That would be great. In the Vesaris role, like, maybe even taking him down to, like, be in front of the dragon's skull. Yeah. And, like, has to hold him because he's a baby and saying you can't walk. Yeah. In my mind, she's like, she has him on her hip, essentially. Boy child, you bounced on your knee. Boy child's not nearly so much child.

No, it's not. I really not. I really like that. And Allison, there is so much mystery for us as book readers of what they are going to do with her. I mean, I am now we're jumping around a little bit because we're talking about her. I'm quite concerned, of course, about what your response is going to be to show up and being like, he didn't keep your promise because you said I could kill your kid and Agon's gone. It doesn't seem like that's going to go well. But there's just so much room for them to play with what Allison is up to and how we get to spend our time with her given. how back Bernard she is after Rainer takes over.

So, you know, obviously we had been talking about that ever since big bathtub. Like, what are they going to do? And then this additional wrinkle then of the bigger bathtub of the meeting on Dragonstone. I'm intrigued by that. I'm intrigued by that. I wonder if Allison will come up in our next topic here, which is Amund. Because I would like to ask you, who do you want to see? Now that we know how our time at Harren Hall goes, who do you want to see Amos?

Who do you want to see Amid have to face in Amid's ghost therapy sessions in Harry Hall? I think we've got back and forth in this a little bit and I think so to me the most interesting prompt

is like if you can only pick one right because I think there are a lot of good options here if I can only pick one I pick Leo Ashton who played young Amon so well and when we talked to you

and Mitchell about his performance he said he took a lot from Leo performance and stuff like that. So Amon meeting the younger version of himself. Or Titanant because we love Titanic as younger Aikon. Or an unscarred Tim, Tom. Okay, I'm losing control here. Everyone.

This is how we ended up with 20 Damon dreams. And I was scarred Tomlin Carney or bring Patty back. I don't know. It's a lot. But Leo Ashton would be my number one. How about you? I like, I think I would probably rank. Allison first because just the mommy, the mommy stuff.

Like I need it. And then egg on, because like really confronting what he did to him. And then I would go Luke because of the guilt that he carries. But that's related to like young Amon, which I think would be great. That kid is going to be four to five years older. Yeah. He's going to be so tall. Yeah.

Because Leo Ashton could be older because like. Territory. Right. He could be like, I became. I became. Yeah. but not Luke. You'd be like, you never made it.

Frozen and Amber. Okay. I'll listen to Eli. In the, asked for this in the book spoiler section. So Eli, I hope you made it this far. Wants to know what happens to their favorite character, Simon Strong. And I got bad news for Eli. Okay.

This is from Fire and Blood. This is what happens when Amid Targaryen arrives to Heron Hall. Damon is gone. Amon is pissed. Because he thought he was going to go fight Damon and Caraxis. but Damon has gone to Kings Landing and they missed each other. And so Aeman arrives at Heron Hall

and who does he find instead? Our guy, Simon Strong. Fire and Blood. First to suffer for it was Sir Simon Strong. Prince Eamon had no love for any of that ilk and the haste with which the Castellan had yielded to Heron Hall to Damon, convinced him the old man was a traitor. Sir Simon protested his innocence

insisting that he was a true and loyal servant of the crown. Elypsies, some stuff happens. Aeman commanded that Sir Simon be given a sword. Let the gods decide if you speak truly, he said. If you are innocent, the warrior will give you the strength to defeat me. The duel that followed, I just need you all to pause right now and imagine poor Simon Russell Beal in his plum velvets with a sword. The duel that followed was utterly one-sided. All the accounts agree.

The prince cut the old man to pieces, then fed his corpse to Vakar. No. Nor did Sir Simon's grandsons long out live him one by one. Every man and boy with strong blood in his veins was dragged forth and put to death, the del a heap made of their heads, stood three foot tall. There aren't that many strongs in the show. They didn't cast enough strongs to that. It's going to be one or two episodes for Simon Russell Beale in season three, I fear.

So if they go by this, you know. If I were them, I would just say, like, just kidding. He's safe because he's so entertaining. I think he's going to go out. Yeah, sure they said all the accounts agree. A very rare thing to hear, but fuck it. Let's keep Sir Simon as long as we can. I'll miss him.

And that'll, it'll be really hard for Aymond to get any sympathy from the audience if he is cutting Sir Simon Strong, fan favorites Sir Simon Strong at pieces and feeding him to Vagar. Do you think there will be red currents at Harenhall by then or no? I don't know. I don't know. And I can't believe that Alice Rivers would watch that and be like, yeah, that's my man. That's surprising to me. I'm so curious to see what the Alice Amund dynamic ends up being, how it differs from the book, how it differs from the Alice Damant dynamic.

This is one of the things I'm most interested in seeing playoff on the screen. There's nothing about current Amant that I would think would be alluring to Alice Rivers. You know what I mean? It kind of gets back to like a lot of the questions you were raising throughout the season of like, what is driving Alice? what, you know, and then things Alice has said herself about like the, the player piece and like, yeah, just, there's got to be something else kind of at play there. Joe, speaking of. Amen. The Targs.

Yeah. Amant. Helena. I'm curious if anything that happened in the finale has had a bearing on what you think is going to happen to Helena, which is already a death kind of embroiled in mystery and differing accounts and theories. and speculation. Do you have any new thoughts based on the finale and what we saw from Helena? Kind of like the idea, I really, if she's got to go, falls or is pushed out of a window? The Helena Targaryen story. We got a listener email about this on trial by content. There is, the way it's written, it seems that Helena jumps the same moment that Amen falls over the battle of the gods eye. it's hard to resist that visual of them, like, falling at the same time,

Hulian Amund. So, and if she's going to jump, I think I would prefer, I would think I would prefer her jump than her being pushed. Like, having actual control, I'm not ever pro-suicide, but having some control over her own destiny versus being like, yet again, another victim pushed around on the board, etc. Yeah. But there's all this, there's this whole, like, brothel plot line. that I do not think. There is just no way. Absolutely not.

They're doing the brothel plot line with Helena where Rineira puts Helena, like, in a brothel. Like, that's not happening. So, like, yeah, I'm very curious. Yeah. I was wondering if, like, the Allison and who will she be if her mind is broken question to aim into the finale was there to, like, point toward some sort of. Because we, this was what from the book, we were kind of expecting post blood and cheese, right? But this is not what happened.

And so then you're like, is it going to happen later and in a different way? Or is it just, is it not? And this is an example of the histories failing to properly capture what really transpired. And the people who are sharing their account thinking, not understanding Helena's gift and mistaking it for madness. Just because she likes bugs. Doesn't mean she's lost all of her faculties. I think it's kind of the opposite because Connell's implication in that in that panel was that Helena is getting more and more control of her powers. in the like dream walking and the interpreting her like visions with more accuracy.

So I don't think we're going to see her do the aphelia sort of broken. I think we're going to see Helena's strengths of strength of strength. Yes. But how that leads to her going on a window, I don't know. Yeah. That's why I do fear that like the murder outcome is more likely. maybe it's somebody who fears her power or wants to silence her or something. But I think that idea of like Helena is saying to Allison, where would I go?

Because she knows from her future visions that she never leaves. Like she doesn't go anywhere. She knows she's going to die. And then also like perhaps in her, we've gone back and forth on this line. Like it doesn't matter. Like if Amund is talking about her death, it doesn't matter. Maybe it's because like I've seen my death. It's soon.

I've seen it. I'm going out the window pretty soon anyway, so it doesn't really matter. You kill me. I think you looked at your watch. Tick-Tock. Let's talk about another sibling. Okay, what? Let's talk about another sibling.

Darren. Teserian. I chuckled. I got a kick out of Renira saying to girls. The third brother is untested. It has never left Old Town. This dragon is younger than Vermax. It made me think of the Twitter account, Old Takes Exposed, who's like always tweeting

like this is a football take you got wrong on a ringer pod like 14 years ago. Does it happen to you? Do you get tweeted on that account? It happens to everybody. I did have one. I did have one. Yeah, it was about Josh Allen. But a lot of people were wrong about that.

Am I not to me? I'm not because I'm wrong just because like you are like, you are like, you are of more notoriety in that space. Put your Brock Party takes on Twitter. Okay. On it. And see what happens. Definitely.

But yeah, like this is. is just obviously not going to prove to be true about Darren. And so I enjoy that because I think, like, we talk a lot about characters underestimating Reneira. And so for Reneer to make that same mistake is dramatically compelling to me. Nettles. Yeah. What do you want to say about this and where we are with this?

I just think it could not be clear that they're going to do the Rana for Nettles swap. Yep. I think the theory that we read a couple weeks ago that I got a lot of, off of Reddit that Raina, that the reason that Renira winds up fixating on and resenting the Nettles character so much is, if Raina is in that role, is because Raina abandoned her post in charge of those two blonde toddlers, and when everything goes down south at the gullet, Raina's going to get the blame. Damon being protective of her, not as like a sidepiece, but as his daughter, who he neglected,

who is a dragon writer now. We got the ghost of his dead wife saying, what about our daughters? He checked it on our kids? What do you think? I do like this theory that's going around. I think we got an email about it, but I've seen it elsewhere this idea that like, what if Damon to protect Raina or something like that, like that Nettles is like a thing that they come up with to hide Raina from Renira?

I think that's a good theory too. Yeah. So I was wondering, that was on my mind with. I thought Condal's phrasing in his answer at the panel you guys did to this was like, felt so deliberate in a way that, I mean, obviously like he's being thoughtful about everything, but makes that possibility that you just floated really feel in play. Like, we're providing the television version of one objective truth of this history and anybody who reads the books is free to interpret it however they want. But there is, there are a lot of paths to interpretation through this. And I think that the reign of story, as we're seeing it unfold, is, particular is potentially one of those interesting interpretations that we have to offer. And I would just say that we don't do any of this stuff lightly.

So that's certainly about a number of aspects of this. But that like last part, potentially one of those interesting interpretations, it did make me think like, oh, could this, yeah, a cover story and identity swap. Now, I think for the people who love Nettles, this is like really going to be a complicated thing and not something that everybody's happy about. Shout out our guy David Jacoby, who is. But like Roman, Roy, pre-greaving. Very upset about this, even though it has not yet officially happened.

And, you know, I think that the daughter, the learning eventually that Damon and Nettles, if Nettles had been in the show, was actually still more of a father-daughter thing, rather than like the romantic rumor-mongering. Like, you know, the prince doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter. Like, I think that daughter possibility is always. been there. And so making it his literal daughter. Yeah. That feels in bounds. I think as we've talked about in recent weeks, like, losing that and you don't have to be a Targaryen though, as we talked about, who knows?

Nettles could have been a seed or, you know, had some blood of old Valeria that we just did not know about. But obviously that, like, you just work your way up and build that trust with sheepie, one hunk of mutton at a time. And you don't, and like, what, you know, what that. the fuel to the fire of like, do you need to be a targ? Really going to miss all of that. So, yeah, I'm so interested to see how this goes. I guess if it happens, I repeat a morning, morning I'll never hatch sad. I love the design on sheepy so much.

Big sheepy fan. I can't wait to spend more time with sheepy. Though I'm haunted by your suggestion that we might just have like all of season three be them like getting to know each other before an actual. an actual bearing. I was holding this back because we were hoping sort of maybe to get a chat with our palpala fair field which just doesn't think

that it's happening at least anytime soon. So I thought that I would share this thing that I already shared with you, but she told me, she said, Ryan wanted a clear difference between the writer and Dow Dragons, frolicing moon dancer and Vermax in the next scene and the wilds.

I made the decision that the wild have no song, depending on what they've done with Raina and Sheep Steeler, maybe she'll get her song one day. So, like, this idea that Sheep Steeler has no song is just this sort of, like,

scratchy voice, like, wild dragon that doesn't hoot the way that, like, the other dragons do, but that maybe if Raina claimed sheepstealer, which we just feel like is definitely going to happen, but Paula is not confirming one way or another, then, like, maybe Sheep Steeler will get a song?

Absolutely beautiful. She deserves a song. Paula. Paula. Paula is a genius. All right. The betrayals, the seeds. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about this with Ulf and Hugh already earlier. I guess we've kind of hit that part of it. The Adam stuff is devastating. Genuinely devastating to me. I am, I care about him so much. I care about him so much. He's going to get lumped in with Hugh and Ulf, who will betray Renera. though I have questions about Hugh but let's save it for another season

so he's going to get lumped in with him and then he has to like prove himself and improving himself by like coming back and fighting the betrayers he dies and that's so sad but before he dies he is one of very few characters ever to go to the aisle of faces

so my question to you is are we actually going to get to see the aisle of faces with Adam R Sweet city loyal boy. And my follow of question is, if they're going to do that, why did they not have, I already said this, but like, why did they not have one shot of him at Heron Hall being like, what's all this then? You know what I mean? One little like, Adams on the ground. Oh, man. Maybe later he'll be like, I was up there circling for a while and I have a follow-up question. I heard a little voice. What's all that? What's all this then? Can I go to that island?

I hope we get this. I mean, it would be, I think it, I'm looking forward to all of our time with Adam, but obviously it would be incredible to go to the high-a-face. So I feel like, I do feel like we will go there one way or another because we'll go with Damon who's really alive. Right. Right. And becomes the like the three-eyed raven before Brendan gets there. Oh, man. Fun theory.

Love it. Great stuff. Alfred Brum. What I was to say about that piece of shit? I mean, you know, again, this is where like they're not really, they're not really hiding the ball because like on the one hand, And the wherewood whispering traitor to him, it could just be about the fact that he is there to kind of convince Damon to make a play

at Reneira's expense. That's an act of treachery. But obviously, the great treachery awaits. I just am like, they're really going out of their way to have him say many times over the course of this season, some version of what he says in the finale. I will never serve the usurpers or the whelps of Old Town. So while I don't particularly care for our time

with Sir Alfred Broome or want more of it, especially if we only have 16 fucking episodes left, I'm interested to see, like, you know, we saw him obviously recede into the crowd as everybody bends the knee and chance for Renera. Yeah. But so, like, how is he going to reconcile his fear inside of Team Black with his seeming genuine aversion to Team Green? I'm kind of curious to see how that goes. Alan. I guess we should have gone from Adam to Allen, but we were in the portrayals section.

So, Alan. Adam, Alan, Alan, firmly in the I don't want it model, but we know that eventually he takes over Lord of the Tides, that title from Corleys. Yes. How do we think that's going to happen? I'm kind of curious because for like the middle stretch of season two,

we assumed that this would kind of happen or at least we would make more progress toward this in season two. And obviously it didn't. So now I'm wondering if there's like a real timeline change coming and that maybe, like, I wonder if Alan's embrace of that. I mean, I think ultimately it's going to feel most satisfying if it's a thing he decides he wants. But basically, like, if he does it for Adam, not for Corlis,

and not even necessarily for himself, like, that's interesting to me because Adam has been the one who's like, bro, we've got to do this. Yeah. So I'm curious to see how that goes and when that kind of change unfolds. You already mentioned this idea that Allison might be in a bit of trouble if Rainier shows up to Kings Landing and Agon is Laris absconded with Agon in a box. So like what, you know, what are you going to do about that? Tensions, I mean, they're going to be coexisting the same.

We're just going to be thriving with Emma and Olivia scenes for a little while. And that's very exciting for all of us. We did this email from Sarah. I don't need to read the whole thing. But I did think it was interesting that like Sarah pointed out. it out that we were missing the moment in blood and cheese in the adaptation that Helena like really chooses which of her kids dies. And we got a version of that with Alicent in the finale that Allison basically chooses

Helena over Agon. Yeah. In a sort of like blood and cheese-esque moment. I think that that was like a really smart observation. Not that it tells us anything about what's going to happen to Alicent, but you know. That is a great observation, though. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have anything else to say about Auto High Tower?

I think where we've run out of ideas here. We'll see in two years. Here's the real question. How horny will season 3 be? We need more sex in the show. I don't mean to be so painfully predictable, but there's not enough sex in the show. Zoe writes, in the books,

when Damon and Reneer get back together for the Heron Hall, after the Heron Hall is strange a minute, it seems common public knowledge that Damon eventually hooks back up with Masaria's blessing. Recall Renira apparently just eats tasty treats and gets, quote, thicker or something like that. Sounds fabulous. Honestly, get it how you live, girl. Anyway, with the show's twist on Renier and Masari's relationship, are we about to get a Damon Renera Masaria Thruple. I just can't see why not. We've already said that hot

Dee needs more zesty scenes. Plus, HBO could show Netflix how to do a threesome scene properly because Colin Bridgeton sequences were not it. And I got to agree. The Colin Bridgeton three-sum stuff, beginning of this season of Bridgeton, we're not I agree. So here's the question. Are we going to get Damon, Reneira, and Masaria, Thruple? Love to see it. Love to hear it.

Love to know about it. Thailand and Lohar or Thailand and Lohar's many wives or all that sort of stuff. Is that happening? Alison Eamond, what's going to happen there? Bela and Alan, too soon? Question mark? Who's to say? That feels later to me.

Season four? Yeah. What do you think? How zesty? I love Zoe's words, zesty. How zesty and or horny is season three going to be? It's a war.

Yeah. War can make people horny. Absolutely. Yeah, you want to feel alive before you die. And also, like, you know, you made some great points heading into season two when we were talking about, like, the new cast members,

Tom Bennett, Freddie Faxax, etc. About how important it was to introduce some levity and, like, tonal variants into the season. And, like, you know, when we talk about a vibrant, rich, varied tapestry, let's get this in as well. It can't only be, and yes, when I, like, say, like, it can't just be war. I mean, again, we've talked about already.

We're going to talk about it more in a minute. A lot of battles await. We're going to need some pallet cleansers between all the fighting. We're going to need some fucking. I am, again, I have some questions about maybe how the Alice Amon stuff is actually going to go. Yeah. But I look forward to finding out.

I would be happy for Jace if he experienced the carnal arts before tragically perishing in the gullet. I think there are all sorts of opportunities. And the Damon Renera-Masaria Thruple thing is a great call. You know, like the way that it's presented to us in the book a couple times is like with the queen's blessing. Yeah. And so maybe that's one of those examples of how like blessing,

not only because Rainira had her own stuff going on, but because Renera was participating. Who's bad? It's all happening around her. I like it. All right. Okay. So let's just do some quick timeline predictions here.

We both put down our little lists, and they're basically identical in terms of when we think things are going to happen. Yeah. Fish feet. Whether they do Red Fork as like a preamble into fish feed or just make it all one thing. episode one? Like this actually feels like maybe the more likely opening act than Gullet because it just allows Jace to stay in the story one episode longer, right?

And also because like the ships do have to kind of all sail toward each other whereas like I know they said on the morrow but like I don't know like everyone's I mean I guess the winter wolves it takes some time to get from the twins still but like the lanisters are fucking looking across the trident at Heron Hall like that that should happen soon. It should happen soon. It should. But here's, I think we were trying to figure this out on child like content.

Yeah. The breakup I have between, so a bullet points, you have bullet points. Yes. Almost not all, but almost all my bullet points, I feel like have to happen. Yeah. But I think they have to do some condensing or combining a sequences because for the season three bullet points I have, you and I both agree that we think season three is going to end with the first Templeton betrayal. Yes. That's where we think season three ends.

Hugh and Ulf turn on Team Black. Yes. Devastation. Huge blow. Huge blow for Team Black. So, tough one. Given that, I have seven bullet points in season three for eight episodes.

That's insane. So, like, for something like the fish feed red fork. Yeah. Where, like, Jason Lanister's going to die. Gwain High Tower is going to die. is going to die, perhaps. Is this something where we can do all of those people dying at the red fork

cut together with Damon and Reneer take Kings Landing and Amen arrives at Harrow. Like the Fall of Kings Landing and the Fish Feed happening at once. So we see Damon put all those people there and then fucked off and left them. And so the taking of Kings Landing

and the rather bloodless, taking of Kings Landing and the bloody, no dragons involved battle happening in the Riverlands at the same time. Feels like it could be elided, you know? Yeah, I'm still curious to see if they end up, like,

accelerating the Kristen Gawain path and incorporating them, because we talked a lot during the season when we thought we were going to get Fish Feed in season two. Like, we need more, we need characters we know to be participating in that because, like, Fish Feed is, like, sending Ravens to Aym and, like,

please come help us, but none of the Ravens ever make it. And nobody we care about it is. Yeah. So I think like for that reason it seemed like either we had to get characters who we know and are more invested in to participate in that or that could be a candidate for a battle because we don't know many of the main participants that happens off screen. But I'm now less inclined to think it could happen off screen because of the way season two ended in the uproar around it. Like I think starting season one, I really, I mean, Gullet could definitely be episode one. But I think starting season three episode one with like Fish feed.

Fish feed happened off screen. I don't know how that's like... I mean, they can't... I don't think they can Bernie Mill fish feed, but they don't have to show us like a ton of it. They do have to show a lion attacking Jason Lancaster and then Longleaf killing... Maybe both the lion and Jason.

Interesting. If Kristen, if they don't do Butcher's Ball, and Kristen and Gawain both die at the fish fish feed. Like, that's, that's a thing that could happen. I feel like they're going to keep Kristen around longer. And we're going to have this, like, attrition and slow march towards just complete defeat. I'm tempted to agree. I just think that Butcher, of all the things that could be folded into something else, Butcher's ball is like the one thing. But then again, it's not as massive of a spectacle. That's the thing. Yeah. I don't think that has to be like a huge set piece. I think it's just like,

you know, this march as you're, you're losing men, like this Amund, Kristen parting, which they've obviously already set up spectacularly. And then like, okay, you've got these like, you know, little, little pantomimes in the end of your horrors and waiting for you in the woods and like burn, burn passions. And every minute, just another thing. Another horror befalls you. And you're like, what is the point? What is the path forward?

And then he just needs to run into like a group of people. He's just already so ready to die to like, I know, stringing along. Okay. So it's gullet. The question in the second episode. So you think fish feeders? the first episode and Gullin the second episode is what you think. I do like Kings Landing happening in tandem with a battle though. I like that idea. And I think, you know, in the book,

the sequencing like the kind of response that Reneera has to Jace's death, like we're just in a totally different place with Reneer as a character, right? So Kings Landing could happen before then. I don't know that Kings Landing and, I kind of am intrigued thematically, like storywise by the idea of Kingslanding and Gullet happening in tandem and Rears like, I won and then it's like, fuck my air was just, king's. But the dragon, so many of the dragons being in a different place and being like, this is the moment to go to Kings Landing. That just would be odd. So the sequencing would have to unfold in a way where like Reneera and Damon felt confident enough that they didn't need everyone else to go with them.

And then they were all available when like the baby flies in on Starbath. Well, there's also Moon Dancer who is not a factor in the book. But like the seeds go with Reneer to Kings Landing. and then come join the gullet, but Jace is already there and like too late for Jace or... I can see that. Yeah. And I do think like just given the Allison like coming three days timeline, like Kingslanding just shouldn't take very long to happen for a number of different reasons. So that going with, that happening in concert with fish feed is interesting to me.

I like that as a season. It feels like to me there's like three really big things. And it's like fish feed. gullet, Kings Landing. Yep. So the gullet, then fish feed Kings Landing together, sort of like mid-season, like in the rooks-rest spot, and then ending with the first battle of Tumbledon. In there, you've got the potential of, like, let's check in with what the red Cracket is doing and so like that. But again, those are smaller potentials that piece.

What do you think about Honeywine? Do you think that Honeywine will happen off screen and just be something we hear about, or will that be our formal introduction to Ormond High Tower and to Darren and to Sarian? And obviously we saw Tessarian fly over those troops. It's almost too bad that we got a shot of him. I say that even as we were like, where's Darren? Because, like, Darren on his dragon showing up as like the big Deos X Machina of the Battle of Honeywine. Yeah. You know, is such a dramatic thing they could have done, you know?

So, I don't know. So many Darren mentions this season. Wild times. Season four. Yeah. Battle above the Gogh's eye. Yes, beginning of the season. I think Renair takes Kings Landing in episode one of season three.

That feels like the final shot of the premiere. But it's Gullet on the morrow, Kings Landing in three days. But they don't mean they're going to reach the gullet on the morrow. They mean they're setting out on the morrow to head toward the gullet. It takes a little time to sail there. I think we've been thinking they were going to flip-flop Kings Landing and Gullet for a long time. But that had more to do, I think. with like us trying to figure out like budgetarily what they had what they were going to do.

Yeah. Now that it's all in one season, I see no reason to flip-flop it. Yeah. No, I kind of agree. And then so if Vernera takes the throne in the middle of season. Yeah. Three and then Tumbleton is the end. Absolutely three or four.

And so you have like a real like low early in the season of losing Jace, the high of taking the throne and then the low of Tumbledon. of Tumbledon and the betrayal. And then we head into season four God's Eye first episode. Second episode. Second to keep my husband here as long as they can, right?

Okay. So God's Eye, fall of Dragonstone. Yes. Storming of the pit. Storming of the dragon pit. Second Tumbleton. Bloodbath, yeah.

Sunfire birds Reneer. Yes, Renira's death. Agon's death. And then whatever the final moment is. If it were me. That's a lot. I would burn Ramir at the beginning of episode seven

and actually kill Agon before that episode is over. And then the last one is the aftermath. They have a lot to do and not a lot of time. And just the way the show has been paced to this point. I mean, this is insane. Everything we just mentioned is like insane. It's insane. for them to try to do all of this.

And again, like, if we're talking about, like, budgetary concerns, like, so many dragon battles. So, like, I don't. I mean, we didn't even mention something like, like, the Kings Road battle at the end, which I guess they would just be like, eh. But, I mean, there's a lot of stuff. And, like, it's not, can't only be battles. Like, that's just, that's not the balance of the show. Right. And that's why I think, like, I think trying to keep, if it's an eight-episode season,

I think trying to keep it to, like, three big things per season. they need 10 episodes per season. Because season four, Battle of Gauzaid, follow Dragonstone, storming the Dragon Pit, second Tumbledin, Sunfire Burns are near. You can't skip any of those things. And none of those things should happen off screen. Like, the Storm of the Dragon Pit.

Crucial deaths. Yeah. So many people are going to die. So many people, so many dragons are going to die. You know. I can't wait. It is going to be great. I did tease this person to cool thing.

So I'll just say. Yeah. Make the case. Derek, Freddie did mention your favorite line about, I'll have no songs about how Brave You died. Our listener, Freddie, did mention that. The best. And this idea of like, this is such a different Kristen Cole than Kristen Cole in the book at this point. So it's like how he's going to interact with fish feed and butcher's ball and all that sort of stuff is really interesting. Okay, but Derek writes on the popular Kristen Cole is the Shepard theory.

I've seen this all over the place. Very interesting. Derek writes, he can still be shot by Rob Rivers Archers at the Butcher's Ball to keep that part of Cannon intact, but could easily lose a hand there to make his way back to Kings Landing, ragged but renewed, filled with anger the dragons and their lords. Chris' field commander experience is familiar with the city from his time on the Kingsguard would help explain how the shepherd controls his mob enough to storm the dragon pit. Inside knowledge, hello. Plus the legends recounted in fire and blood say that the shepherd himself acting as an avatar of the warrior struck down Cyrax, Renera's dragon. This would be a fitting end of Kristen's long-time grudge against her

And also would make his eventual condemnation by Agon that much more personal Also for what is worth, Dune Spoilers, Dune Spoilers, Children of Dune Spoilers, Children of Dune. This is the preacher arc in Children of Dune. It would work best if, like, in Children of Dune, the other major characters don't know or even suspect that Kristen is the shepherd, except perhaps for Aege on second, when he eventually executes him just before he is poisoned. What if we gave... Fascinated. I'm coming down on a no here. What if we gave Fabian like a huge ragged beard and like a great big bushy beard and like long hair?

That sounds great. Scraggle them up. I don't see this just because I don't think that's, I'm, I've now become convinced that's not the arc that's not the arc that's not the arc that's not the arc. But I do think this is fascinating and fun thing. What do you think the arc? Well, I like this idea of conservation of characters. The Shepherd is someone we've already met. That is compelling to me, especially because the question of who he is and his identity is such a thing already.

I don't know that I'm prepared to offer up another great candidate. I don't know. I guess like we talked around the finale of like, are we watching like a true quote unquote redemption arc for Kristen? And I don't know that we are. No. But I also don't know that we're watching a like I need to hold on to my resentment and quest for vengeance at all costs arc.

And like I think that this. You can leave him in Nile is a Nile's a nook. Nile's a nook. The state of complete defeat and like what is my place. in the world. It feels like the area we're going to play in, at least for a little while. I kind of, again, like, there's just so little time left now that I'm like,

God, do we even have enough room to like get Kristen to go back to Kingslanding, become the shepherd, lead the flock, spark the riot, spark the storming of the pit, find out then that the people are not actually just going to show. up to align with you. Yeah. He also doesn't strike me as a thought leader, but... Yeah. Well, we did see that rousing speech to get everybody to charge into Dragon War.

The thing I do you find compelling is, like, the way we've talked a lot about his, like, kind of cloak of righteousness and the use of this, like, religious justification for his acts. That's interesting to me. But I just, I think I am like, everybody has their, like, what do I really not want them to change thing? Like, Riley wrote a thing on the site that was basically like, if, Damon Targaryen does not jump off of Caraxis on to Vagar and charge toward Amon.

Dark Sister in hand as Amid is like fumbling with his saddle and can't get out in time. Like I will basically like swear off this franchise. I'm not going to say that. It's interesting, no, because the butcher's ball is quite like that. But I just, Kristen's death, it feels perfect to me. It is interesting to me because Amid doesn't use seat belts that we've seen so far. Rainies does. Amon doesn't really strap himself in.

Maybe his foot gets caught in the netting. There's all that like the all the ropes. There is just quite a bit of like ropey lattice work there on the side. I agree. I agree with Riley on that. Okay. Do we do it? I think so.

Anything else? Anything else that's on your mind from season two or heading into season three? I mean, I can't wait to do this again with you in two years. See you again in two years, but also see you next year for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I can't wait. I'm so excited for that. Can't wait to be a dog bag. Those books are so good.

Again, just going to advocate reading those novellas. They're quick. They're fun. Harry Lloyd does the audiobook. Check it out. Wonderful. Can't wait to be with my guy, Baylor-Bringspere. Love him.

All right, we did it. What a treat, what a thrill. What a season. Always love to cover Thrones with you. Delightful. All right. That's it. The pod makers, they're calling us.

We did, in fact, make some pods. Many of them, and they were quite long. So thank you for listening to them. That is a wrap on today's episode and on our season two, Hot D chats. Thank you to. our dragon riders. Steve Allman and John Richter

for producing these just, you know, frankly, astonishingly long podcasts all season long. Thank you to our Juno Ramgapal for his additional production work on this and every episode. And thank you to Joomi Adon

for his work on the social for this and every episode. We will see you next week for the fall. And what does fall mean? You'll find out on that podcast when we decide what dates apply. Fall height meter.

Until then, remember, The pod is an enduring mystery. Is it not?