House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 1 Deep Dive

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

We’ve come to pod for the dragon queen! Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the premiere episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, ”Salt and Sea, Fire and Blood.” They break down everything from the Battle of the Gullet to Aemond and Alicent’s relationship.(00:00) Intro (07:19) Opening Snapshot (19:09) Rhaena claims Sheepstealer in the Vale(32:02) Aemond learns that Aegon has fled(33:25) Aegon and Larys are taken prisoner(39:43) Rhaenyra shares the news of Alicent’s visit(49:14) Aemond confronts Alicent(58:46) The winter wolves arrive(01:07:25) Criston and Gwayne continue their Philosophy courses(01:18:37) The Dragonseeds camp at Harrenhal(01:24:29) Alicent writes a letter(01:29:32) Corlys attempts to make peace with Alyn(01:32:57) The Triarchy arrives(01:38:26) Ormund Hightower enters the chat(01:49:57) It’s Incest O’Clock for Aemond and Alicent(01:56:56) Jace imprisons his own mother(02:10:02) The Battle of the Gullet(02:21:41) Book spoilers!Explore the exclusive collection at ⁠Target.com.⁠Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob Cornett and Jamie YukichSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings and welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, we may appear to have the weak and feeble bodies of women, but we possess the heart and spirit. It's Joanna Robinson. We've come to Pod for the Dragon Queen. What if I just say that every week?

We've come to Pod for the Dragon Queen. Roddy the Ruin and his iconic quotes are welcome here at the House of Our at all times, whether or not it's a House of the Dragon deep dive. As far as I'm concerned, today is a House of the Dragon deep dive. We are going to dive deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Profoundly. Recklessly deep. We are going to plumb the depths.

We're going to the bottom of the gullet. Right on. Just like poor... Do we have any issue of the spoiler warning yet? God damn it. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together, and Target is calling all trainers to the celebration. That's because there's something for every era of fan in the Pokemon and Target limited time collection. Thought you found them all after the first drop? Think again.

Drop two just landed featuring life-size Pokemon puzzles and an instant print digital camera. The entire collection is in store and online, so check it out now. Explore now at Target.com. All right, before we get started, we're sort of editing this in through the magic of editing. To say, we just got confirmation from folks in the note, folks who would definitely know this. Yes. That the location where Ulf and Hugh and Adams spends some time in this episode, season three, episode one, is the banks of the gods eye, not the aisle of faces, which is something we talked about on Talk the Thrones. Yes. So we are re-editing this podcast.

If at any point we say, Isla Faces, it slipped through the edit. We didn't meet it. We're going to do our absolute best. Yeah. We're going to do our absolute best. It's like we just time travel to make this update. That's fun. And now we get to talk about programming reminders, which we originally shared three hours ago.

Go for it. Okay. Joanna, before we get to season three, episode one, the season three premiere. Yeah. Let's hit some programming reminders. What else is cooking? Oh, guess what? Yeah.

More House of the Dragon. That's right. Talk the Thrones with Christopher Ryan right after season three episode two and season three episode three and season three episode three and so on and so on. Also, between Talk the Thrones and House the Dragon plumbing, the very depths of this story and history and culture, is a slightly less profound dive, but nonetheless important, into the vampire list at. Absolutely. We're sinking our fangs. So it's Talk the Thrones, The Vampire Listat, and House the Dragon Deep Dive. Those are your three hits you can expect from us every week.

However, should there be a film release that we're excited about? Perhaps you will get us not thrice, but four times a week. It's entirely possible. It's very normal. We didn't rewatch every single Christopher Nolan movie and talk about all of them to, like, not cover the Odyssey when that comes out. For example. That would be funny. That would be wild. That's like if we watched all of Doctor Who and then didn't cover the new scenes of Doctor Who.

Not something we would do that. Who would do that? We'd love for you to follow along. Sure. Spotify? Please. You can watch full video episodes of House of Our and the Midnight Boys. Bubebue, BOO! Spotify, YouTube? Spotify, YouTube, follow the Ringervis YouTube channel. What about social? Yeah. Yeah. What if I followed the House of R pod on Instagram or TikTok? Great. At House of R pod. I'd suggest you do it.

You might get some dragon math from us, some social first-only dragon math from us. Boy, what else will you get? You got a follow to find out. Email us. Please. Hobbits and dragons.com. The inbox is always open. The whole crew was so excited to fire off the Raven today. Yeah, they're throwing. We heard that many people are excited to fire the Raven call. They're grappling in the control room to press the button for the call.

Spoiler warning. Yeah. Let's explain, let's refresh how we handle spoilers for Thrones Pots for House of the Dragon. Please. If it happened in this episode of television, season three, episode one. That's not a spoiler. We're talking about it all. It's a deep dive.

That's the entire point in the podcast. If it's ever happened in any other episode of Game of Thrones, television, a prior episode of the show, an episode of Game of Thrones proper, maybe even Night of the Seven Kingdoms? I think Nine of the Seven Kingdoms is on the table. Could come up today. Fair game. Throughout, we like to sprinkle in some book passages from Fire and Blood, the text that this

show is adapted from, and some other textual notes, references as context. But none of that will spoil future events. We will, however, have a dedicated book spoiler section at the very end of the podcast. So anything that happens in the future that we know from the books. And we know a lot. We'll talk. But it's always kind of a question mark in this show in particular, given the nature of the adaptation, unreliable narrators in the books. We think we know a lot.

We don't know shit. We don't know anything. Ryan Connell's like, oh, you think you know? You have no idea. Sheep Steelers coming to the going. Exactly. God. We were like sitting here for years waiting for nettles.

Look at us now. Look at us now. Just receiving a lot of texts from David Jacoby about where is nuttles. We haven't got him yet this week. That's how I know he hasn't watched yet. Oh, okay. Fair enough. Yeah. We'll know the second you watch is. I feel sure.

You're right. You're right. I feel sure. You're right. So before we get to the book spoiler section at the end, we will issue another warning. We will let you know it's time if you want to hang around. If you've read the books or you just are like, I want to know anyway, great. If you don't want to know, that's your moment to leave. It's a brief little section at the end. There's usually a pretty scary sound effect that Carlos will select.

But he's been playing around, you know, dabbling so that you are properly worn but not alarmed and imperiled while on the road, as we have heard. Some people feel. If you have a cardiac condition, we would not like to trigger it just to save you from book spoilers. As everyone can tell, we are super well-rested and in a really normal place today. We're both doing great. We are genuinely excited to be here for the pot. I won't say that we are as well-rested and cogent and balanced as we've ever been, but maybe that'll be, maybe that'll be great.

I'm going to say to you what J said to Bela. Yeah. We're ready. Yeah. This is not our purpose? We're ready. And they were and so are we. It went fine.

Which one of us is the J-Sub podcasting? Probably both of us. Mogging till the bitter end. Servant face. Yeah. You're in this video podcast. All the way. On Spotify.

To the bottom of the drink. All right. Any other intro notes before we get to the opening snapshot. Joanna Robinson first of your name. I'm so excited to be back with you. Me too. This is not a sentence,

but an honor. It is time for the opening snapshot. I love the little sound of the sword. Snicked. Wonderful. Let's start here. It's been a minute. It's been a minute.

I mean, not for us. We potted about this very episode of television mere days ago. Too, yeah. Is that your granny voice? I love it. That's like my Titanic voice.

Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Sure. Wonderful. Well, apt in this episode because, you know, if you watch The House of the Dragons build, a feature app, a lot of like, I worked on the Titanic, brought me in for the gullet. Do they talk about that time that they put, what was it, like, PCP in the clam chowder on the set of the Titanic? Oh, no, I've heard you talk about that before. That's a great nugget. Genuinely my favorite story. That's a great nugget. It's been two years since the television program House of the Dragon aired.

Correct. We have had the pleasure of returning to Westeros in the interim. We covered a night of the seven. Heaven Kingdoms, a show that we adored and that many Game of Thrones fans adored, but it's been a couple years since we got to watch Hot D. Much of that season was quite good. It did not end in a place where people were super pumped or super jazzed, including us. It was like, that's not where this should have ended. It should have ended with Gullet or maybe what came after. And you know what?

The people make the show agree. That would have been amazing. They wanted that. This episode at the end of season two would have been a fucking banger. However, that's not how it happened. We waited two years. How does it feel just to be back in the show? the world of House of the Dragon, and then what did you make? Give us like a little table-setting taste

of how you found this premiere, which is called, I should note, salt and sea, fire and blood. And if you had said to me, put down a bet, what's this episode going to be called? I would have said. Vegas took it off the board. It's going to be called gullet, the gullet, or battle of the gullet, because that's how Game of Thrones battle episodes are named. One last mug. Serve and face, Jace. Mung into the last. All right. Salt and C, of course, that is. Corleason Allen claims to be Sultan and C. Fire and Blood.

Lawrence, yeah. That's Baila and the rest of them. So, you know. Air, C, love it. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, what if I land? All right, so listen.

Yeah, tell me. Critics were raving about this season. Yes. And then I saw, the reaction, the fan reaction I saw was like, positive. but like mix, mix positive, but positive. You know,

that's what I saw. You saw like overwhelmingly positive? I, yes, though I never know how to process that because I think everybody, and this is just true for people in general

in 2026, the year of our lord. Everybody's internet experience is a bubble of their own algorithmic design, so I don't even know how to tell what the wider. Yeah, like it's just,

this is a thing to kind of reckon with. So I'm trying to, and in general, we always like to say, oh, rotten tomatoes, IMDB ratings. Like you take that with a grain of salt always.

You know, this episode is a 9, point three on IMDB with a lot of votes. Does that mean anything? Maybe not, right? Like, does that stuff ever mean anything? Maybe not. So it's more like for me talking to people in my life. Like I heard from a lot of people who watched this and were like, I thought that was a banger. I thought that was great. We're back. I will say this. Those are not people who were like, I'm done with the show at the end of season two. So I'm trying to be a cognizant of that. Like was the episode, I think if you like House of the Dragon, you were maybe bummed by how it ended but excited for the return

and hyped and anticipating the return. Yeah. I think it feels like there's a pretty jubilant reaction to the episode. Nothing is unanimous, but that people are like, okay, we're back. I think this is going to go in a good place. Was the episode and maybe the response to it enough to bring back people who were like, this show is not for me. It's too tower.

It's too slow. It's not the tone or vibe I want. I don't have a feel for that yet. I don't know if you do. And we should note that people, you know, people writing the reviews for this season are working off of probably like four episodes that they got to watch and stuff like that. So that's a more complete picture than the one we're talking about here today. But I think there were – well, I'll just say this.

I love being back in Westrose. I really missed, like, Emma Darcy's Rainier. I really missed Olivia Cook's Allison. Same. You know, I had a great time with Helena in this episode. There's a lot to really like in this episode. I got really into Ulf again in this episode. I forgot how much I love Tom Bennett in this role, et cetera.

What did you think of his ass wiping? strategy with the very like kind of sparse leaf. So they're not a more ample leaf. Well, I think if our friend Tyson from Survivor were here, he would just said, gone to go in the lake. No, go in the lake. You don't wipe. You go let the water wash you clean. Go in the lake. You think no one's ever shit in the gods eye? I think someone is taking a shit in the gods eye. I absolutely think someone's. Anyway, okay. I love, I love doing this with you. Same. This just like thrills me. Same. It's really hard for me to divorce my experience of watching the show from my experience of doing Talk the Thrones and then the deep dives with you.

You know what I mean? It's all of a piece. And there's nowhere I'd rather be than sitting across from you talking about Westrose. So that's all true. Same. Same. It's just like the highlight of my year every time we get to do it. The fact that we got to do it twice this year or are getting to do it. We're just beginning the second time. And allegedly we'll be back in January. I know. That's fun. You know, the monoculture is such a rare thing. one of the things we always like to celebrate at the ringer is like even when in the peak TV streaming mores era it is rare for a show to feel like it has like a vast seismic audience anymore but even so when it does it's amazing even so if it doesn't but it's like there are people watching it and they care about it like the passion the engagement of people who love the thing is one of the great joys of podcast you know we always love to get to like share it with each other with the bad babies that's always so fun so thrones is like you know it's been an uneven experience

in a mixed bag since like season seven of the original series. We've had our peaks. We've had our valleys. Or earlier. As you know, I love season six. I just don't know it's on season five. The opportunity to return to Westeros is like always something I look forward to. And then I hope we get to enjoy being there week after week.

I'm encouraged by the start. We, you know, we got to break down two of the three trailers heading into the season. The third one we didn't get to do because I was not in the country. She was abroad in Sweden. and I couldn't do it without her. True. Not true, but most of the company was there, and so there was no one to produce a podcast.

That is true. If I knew how to turn on the cameras, I would have done it. Oh, man. And, you know, feeling that energy when we, like, got to break down the trailers, these moments from the canon, from the story that we are so anticipating,

I really feel like season three and four, if we had a do-over from the word go here, with some things about the pacing of seasons one and two, which have episodes in them that I, adore and also some like questionable would this have been plotted and broken exactly this way of choices. I think where it leaves us is hopefully a really rich full place for seasons three and four. Very action forward full of a lot of major moments, big battles, gullet-esque moments in the story that I think will give the people who are like, I'm waiting for those moments. Right. Something to look forward to. But the focus on characters and their relationships.

relationships, the way that's something like the Allison's room. When Jace is like, how can you trust this person? We're watching at home and we're like, the show is rooted around the history between those characters. And so I am confident and hopeful that even as the spectacle swells, you know, I don't know that we'll ever go more than a couple episodes at this point, the rest of the series without like a big showdown of some sort, that we will also still be properly calibrated and balanced with the character beats that we love. So I thought that this was a great way to start the season. I really enjoyed it. Quite sad about Vermax because I love the dragons. When the dragons move toward each other, I just like, and the score surges, something in my heart, like,

activates. It's something I just really love about being in the world. So I'm hyped to be back. I'm excited to keep watching and covering the season. I really, like, a highlight, I didn't talk about this enough, I think, on Talk the Thrones. A real highlight for me and something that got me really excited for the season was the introduction of Warman High Tower. Like, I thought, you know, like, When we think about Thrones and we think about, like, the characters who joined us in season two or season three or whatever, you know, like, it's always fun to add new layers to the world. And James Norton is an actor I've always, like, really, really loved. And Ormond Hightower, I think I wanted to, like, clear for Chris Ryan to, like, share his love for James Norton. But, like, I love James Norton.

And I think Orman Hightower and what they're doing with that character is really, really fun. So to, like, get to know that contingent just even a little bit, just like very briefly, but like a really memorable introduction. Very. Was very exciting. I think a challenge they have this season is like our characters, you know, a complaint of early House the Dragon was, oh, we're all just like in Kings Landing. Like Team Green, Team Black are all just like in the castle all the time. Yes.

And it's just like Damon gets to leave some time. And then eventually they like move out to Dragonstone and stuff like that. But like oftentimes we're just in this set. Yeah. Now we are scattered to the wind. Yes. You know what I mean? And so that's a challenge, you know, this is a challenge on Thrones when like people.

People spread out too much. And you're like, do I want a little bit more time with Gwain and Kristen? I do. And I want a little more time with Alice. And I want a little more, you know, it's just sort of like, there's a lot going on. And so how much are we going to be able to check in with everyone? And will it feel like we lose track of anyone because we can only check in with them a little bit? That's a question I have for this season.

But, yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about it. Me too. A lot of characters, a lot of places on the map. the devastating cataclysmic dragon war, so a lot of them are going to die. Then there will be fewer characters. Yeah, that'll make it easier. Yeah. Let's start bumping off those main characters and dragons, shall we?

Should we get to the Deep Tife? Let's do it. Let's head to the Bells of the Pleasuredine. Yeah. That's right. That's the Mallory Rubin' and Dragons Screege. I always forget. The Bowls of the Pleasuredain.

Not a character we got any update on, by the way, in the season three premieres. Where the fuck is Otto? Where's Lano? Still waiting. That is kind of wild, actually, to be waiting two years. It's like, keep waiting. Yeah. A mysterious appearance from Otto at the end of season two, and we still don't know what the hell's going on.

Nope. We're going to go through this episode broadly, sequentially, broadly in order every now and then. We're going to, like, cluster some stuff. For example, we get many Rina, sheep, stealer check-ins before the gullad arrival. We're going to cluster all of those at the top. Girl dinner. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Is that what it looks like when you eat dinner? Sometimes, honestly. Sometimes. Sometimes I'm really glad to those around. An encrustable at each hand. No, I don't do uncrustables for dinner. I know. I'm a big enthusiast of an encrustable for an office lunch or a quick snack.

But as you also know, I mean, I honestly can't remember at home without company the last time I sat down at a table to have dinner. Adam and I eat at TV trays next to each other. I spent a lovely week as a third in your marriage, and I know this intimately. We sat, I think, no, I was going to say we sat at the Kitchen Island with you, which we did, but we also then, the TV trace came out, I think midway through the visit. The thing is, you only have two TV trays, so it was just like Adam sat at a table over there, and you and I said at the... Where are we had four at some point?

Don't know where they went. Good note. We'll look into that. Raina. Raina claimed sheep's dealer in the veil. Let's start here, because we pick up right where our season two ended, which was Raina deciding not to honor the pledge, admittedly a begrudgingly made a pledge, right?

Not a pledge that Raina wanted to me. She's like, babysitters club couldn't be me. Not for me, right? Renira was like, I needed to be the mother to them that I cannot teach them, train them, guard them as a dragon, guards her eggs. And Raina was like, I've got some feedback on this. But ultimately went to the veil. And then little egg on, little Vassaris,

getting aboard the gay abandon. Sly-foot print. Sly paw print. Raina's like I'm going to, I got some business to take care of here. Okay, so that's where we left Raina. And that is where we start the season because obviously Sheep Steeler and Raina are going have a key role to play in the events to come. So a reminder on the Rainer front as, this is actually something I wanted to note quickly

as well on the reminder front. Because one of the things we talked to Chris about, Chris Open talked to Thrones and basically was like, did you guys remember what was happening in the story? We tried not to be too rude in response. Whether we succeeded, I don't know. But he, I think, completely fairly was like, because it's been so long and there are so many storylines and characters, like, are people going to have any trouble acclimating again? We had watched a screener.

We had many emails about this. There was a six and a half minute, I believe, previously on. I am struggling to recall a time a television show open with a previously on that long. That wasn't like a series finale or something. Rones did a really long one once, but I can't remember what it was for. Maybe the final season or something like that. But yeah, a sizable recap for folks. Yeah.

So it's like, okay, yeah. It's been a long time. A lot has happened. Let's catch you up. It's been four years since we started this adventure. That's pretty wild. That's, it's been an entire high school. My goodness.

Yeah. An entire Sunnydale High. So Raina had been plagued, right, by insecurity over not having a dragon. We could think back to something like the Pento stint when the family was there and Rana's like singing to her ass. roasting her egg in the fire. And her mother had to say, like, I had a harder path. You're going to have a harder path, right? Some of them never hatch.

Raina's like, I'm not going to be able to stay. Dad doesn't talk to me or like me because I'm not a writer. It's tough when your dad's entire personality is dragon. It is. And he's like, Beela. Yeah, he's like, Beela. He's got a dragon. Come read.

Let's learn Valerian, like, blah, blah. And he's like, Raina, you're also here. Not ideal. And so obviously that's a formative wound. I think the comp to Amend is very appropriate, given that we saw young Amin. be bullied, be humiliated because he didn't have a dragon and snatched up the one that ran wanted. Exactly.

Claims her mother's dragon. Yeah. It's not like Aymand has completely worked through all of that. That's still very much hanging over him. So the desperate, reckless thing you're willing to do if you don't have a dragon and your entire family is like the dragon family? You're saying Aymond has some psychological issues? He could stand to work through a few more things.

I think Aymand would really enjoy therapy. Would he enjoy it? I don't know. He would benefit from it. He would benefit from it. Here's the thing with Raina doing her little How to Train Your Dragon sequence here at the beginning of this episode. I understand. Her desire to be of use, her desire to be part of her family.

Yeah. It's not feeling the outside. Not just be a babysitter, all of that sort of stuff. Let's train a little longer in the veil. I'm not saying she left the veil to go to battle. She didn't. She was just trying to get back to Dragonstone. She's like, let's go back to Dragonstone.

and I'll show them that I got a dragon. I'm saying, stay in the veil a bit. Now I understand. No access to showers. All of your meals are regurgitated sheep. Not the best. But freshly roasted. Is she getting any roughage?

You need some vegetables. Freshly roasted. You can't live on mutton alone. I'm not the one to consult on a balanced diet. I say trade a little longer. I think it's a good note and worthy piece of feedback that Raynum would have benefited from hearing. Yeah.

Yeah. Going right into battle. And this is the theme in the episode is good intention, bad outcome, right? But when a good intention is paired with the desperate need to prove yourself, whether you're reigned on this circumstance, whether you're Jays, bad things happen. The hubris, this through line for this character set, rears its head many times. They're not just for the dragon riders, right? Like, even something like Corliss with the pretty sick through the teeth dragonstone pass maneuver. It's like, Lower is not going to be able to follow.

Well, guess what? She did. Low Har followed. Right. So many different examples as well. Sheepsealer, we should also know as like a wild dragon, Joanna. Never had a writer. Exactly.

So that's tough. A very old dragon. Yes. You know, I've been around a long time but never had a writer. Our listener Jay wrote in to say, just thought I point out that what seemingly identifies sheepstealer is a quote, wild dragon, is a bad case of snagled tooth and a horrific underbite. If that's what sets them apart from the others, then are the dragons hatched into royalty receiving some sort of regular dental care, brushing, flossing, etc. Do the royal dragons get braces when they're young to straighten their fangs? Do they need to wear a retainer to keep their teeth from shifting back?

Who's doing that job? First of all, dragonkeepers never sleep. No. Dragonkeepers do a lot. But also, I think it might be just an underbite born onto an underbite. But it might also be like the cannibal. another wild dragon over on Dragonstone, might have fucked this dragon up a bit.

Yeah, might have fucked Sheep Steeler up a bit. And maybe that's why Sheepstereer is like, I'm going to go to the veil. You know who's not the veil? The cannibal. You know who's in the veil? A bunch of sheep. So I'm going to go steal some sheep from the veil

and live in the misty mountains. Honestly, that climate looked delightful to me. The cool misty fog of the veil. Beautiful. Yeah. Plenty of food. And no, we see how Sheepsteller once in the gullet responds to the presence

of other dragons and just in general activity, right? So a bit of a loner. I thought the underbite was a great touch. Oh, I loved it. Just a great delightful touch. And his whole design. Like, he's bonier and scalier and like all these other things. So, yeah, great design.

Joanna, how did this claiming compare to the other claimings that we've seen? Anything of note there? You're thinking about Amin and Vagar. Seaspoke claiming Adam. Seaspoke. Seaspoke saying fuck canon. Sure. silver wing,

Rermathore, what about Danny and Drogon? Oh my God, well, of course, I mean, an all-timer, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and in general, actually, was the sewing,

like how top of mind was the sewing from the penultimate episode of season two for you in terms of just like really heightening our awareness of the danger of this? You know, when young Amund goes to claim Vagar

and like certainly could get roasted or eaten or fall off, it's scary, it's big, it's this massive moment. But the carnage that we see in the red sewing paired with this little nugget that we get that Rina tried to previously claim sea smoke and almost died in the attempt. So, like, the fact that that's the backdrop for all of this and this is a wild dragon who's been around since Jiharis, the first youth and has never had a rider, like the likelihood of this working out is very slim. There's no harness. There's no rope to climb, right?

It's just like grab those spikes, hold on and disappear into the fog. Was it scary? It was frustrating because I did not feel like Raina was being very smart. But I understand her desperation. This is a lifelong insecurity for her, so I understand that. But a lot of the characters in this episode are not being very smart. And Raina is certainly the first among many. So when she takes this risk and Sheep Steelers' first move is just like bomb off the cliff, you know.

I'm just surprised that she's like, success. Yeah. I did it. Got like half a line of the dragon lullaby out and interrupted by a roar. Yeah, he's like, I don't care for karaoke. Thank you very much. But also, there's no reason sheepstealer should understand Valerian. She's not been trained.

So she's like trying to access sheepstealer with all of these commands. And sheep stealer's like, I don't speak your language. I don't care for your songs. I didn't attend lessons in the dragon pit. No. But we can eat some sheep. Yeah, we can eat sheave together. I did think tossing the.

Oh, very sweet. Like, she's a little baby bird. Like, it's great. But given that sheepstealer does not understand Valerian and then we ride him into battle and then try to keep him under control with some Valerian. Not effective. No. Not effective. And his fear for himself and also his desire to protect his rider very apparent, but the ability to be fully in sync.

Tough. I was thinking about this knowing a lot, of course, because what the adaptive change that has happened here is, that the character of Raina has been swapped for this other character that they're clearly now not doing the show. Yes. This girl named Nettles. Yes. Where are you on this choice now that it is definitive and undeniable? It was trending this way, but now we know for sure.

I understand it completely from a TV storytelling point of view. It's the economy of characters, right? We have a character who is insecure about not having a dragon. We could just yada, yada, yada, yada, Rana, you know, out of the story, essentially. Or we could swap her in for this other character and then make it all much closer to the family what happens here. But Nettles, we should say, the book, is a common girl. Yes. Right?

And during the sewing, like, she shows up on sheepsealer and she's just like, I found some sheep and I got this dragon. She's just like a really impressive thing. And what's so interesting about her is like unlike the other dragon seeds, there's no clear indication that Nettles has Targary and blood in her. She might. There's various rumors. It's fire and blood.

Any rumor can fly, you know? Uh-huh. But she might not. And so then it introduces this tantalizing question of like, can anyone claim a dragon? Right. You know, and that all goes out the window when you swap this like common girl for this princess, Targary and Princess, you know. And so you lose that.

For sure. But in terms of like economy of storytelling, as Condal is struggling to keep control of the story, we've talked about this on Talk to Thrones, like we're putting characters we already know into battles so that we don't have to introduce like 10 new characters that you have to. never met before just to have them die or whatever. So we're really trying to keep everyone anchored into characters they've already met and know. So I really understand that.

Yeah. But you do lose something in doing so. Yeah. It's a great shout. And like we already referenced Jacoby, but one of our pals. And a lot of people feel this way, like, was very worried as it clearly pointed toward Raina going for sheepstealer, like, for a lot of reasons, right? But also specifically that, what that maybe robs people of the ability to believe.

about who could, and it's like, you know, maybe there's just something in the family tree and somewhere along the way. Like, Nettles also is a dragon seed and that would be a thing that people learned at some point. Like just the glimmer of an iota of a chance that's not the case. Very interesting. There are other story beats on the Nettles front that I, some of which I have questions about now, some of which I think there's a very neat swap to Raina in terms of outcome, if not plot detail. We'll talk about that in the book spoiler section. I'm excited to But it's a consequential character. And so it's a big move to make. And I did, you know,

you popped in this quote that Ryan Condal gave to IGN an interview that I believe dropped this morning. But, you know, where he's talking about the sort of economy of characters. But he said, you know, in addition to other things, Game of Thrones and Westerocean kind of way to reap the consequences of having her wish come true about Rain. I was thinking so much about Sonsa in this moment. Sonsa who's like, I'm going to marry Joffrey and I'm going to be a princess or brand. You know, like these young characters in a Song of Ice and Fire who have these romantic ideas of what it means to be a knight or what it means to be a princess. And for Rana, what it means to be a dragon rider. I will be a dragon rider.

And then I will be recognized by my father and embraced to my family and taken seriously. And they'll look at me the way they look at Bela and all this sort of stuff like that. And then this absolutely fucking disaster at the gullet. So, yes. We will talk about the gullet more, obviously, at the end of the episode. But I think it is a thematically very rich choice to have Raina be in that position. And in general, choosing to make the gullet more of a family affair. But before we get there, we kind of like open the episode with a couple other just glimpses of characters.

Right. So Amend pulls Orwell out of bed, takes them right to the chopping block. Blackfire in handy. He's about to be head him. Yeah. Ed, fetch me the block. lock. Exactly. First good and useful thing Ironrod is ever done. Yeah. Call me how he's like, Laris, it's entirely possible. It's like, uh, Laris is also gone. And Amon's like, okay, so Laris is the one

who helped Egan escape. Here's the thing. Or while, he's been doing some stuff. He's been up to some shit, Joanna. And so how long now does Aiman, has he escaped Aiman's suspicion, right? Like, does this buy him major time? He helped Allison get to Dragonstone. For example, he was working with Laris to help Egon with his walking lessons so that they could prepare to flee. Yeah. So this is just a fascinating little, very quick scene that kind of reminds us, who's been in cahoots with whom about what for how long? Everybody has their secrets.

Who's been cahooten? It's also just a nice way before we get the very, very good close-up of the hand on Blackfire as Amund is sitting on the throne. So a good way to remind us, he's got the ancestral Valerian steel. Sword Blackfire, he has the cat's bat's bagger. He's able to sit on the iron throne. You know, he doesn't have the crown because that is with our besties. Our bestie. Egon and Laris.

On the surprise duo, like they worked our way into their way into our heart. in a way that we couldn't expect. Yeah. Yeah. Where are... Egon and Laris and Kristen and Gawain for you compared to, like, the iconic. It's Jamie and Briann. And then it's Agon and Laris.

I'm just kidding. I mean, anyone watching would believe you if you said that was reales. It's completely plausible. Laris is like your favorite character in the show. He's great in this episode. Fantastic. Let's be real. I love...

So Agon's going through the DTs, right? He's like going through Milk of the Poppy withdrawal. He's also in like... This killed me. was so funny. So when I had surgery last year, my beloved friends who came to the hospital and, like, drove me home, love them forever, respect them forever. They did take the most pot holiest road home. Their idea was to avoid the freeway because they thought it would jostle me less. And then they took back roads that were just like, and I just like really felt

like agon in the carriage where you just sort of like being jostled every second and you're just like in tremendous amount of pain. Is that a setting on like Apple or Google Maps or Watt holiest? Yeah. Yeah. And they're like that's the one. Avoid freeways. Avoid pot. holes. Yeah, yeah. Probably not possible here in California, ultimately. I found this scene very amusing. I loved this because Agon's like, I'm nothing. I'm a cripple. And Laris's like, hello. I know. I thought that was fascinating. Who just helped you escape. It's me. And then the fact that he said a cripple for a protector, I was trying to look at Laris's face and see how much he revealed in that moment because some of our highlights of season two were those really raw,

vulnerable moments between them and me and Lairus flat out like breaking down in tears, they will underestimate you, right? And this would be your advantage. Wear it like armor, Chris, cripples bastards and broken things bond that really organically emerged between the two of them. This felt like, it's more on Laris's side, obviously. Well, but also I think Laris was manipulative, you know, like both. For sure.

Absolutely. We talked about this at the time. That there were like layers here. But Laris is definitely like weaving a spell of like, we're not so different you and I. No question. You can have a different life, the two of us together on the road. Yeah.

On your raven shit. With the go fuckers. But like, so, but there was authenticity there. Yeah. So, yeah. But what I love about layers. I mean, go ahead. Why he's the best.

Enumerate the ways. Is he's hurt. Yes. He masks it very quickly. Quite well. Because he's a consummate manipulator. He is. You know, it's like him and Allison trying to mask her disgust over Amon kissing her.

One of them did a better job of controlling. facial expressions. For Allison, that was for the camera. You know, I don't think Amunds thought. That was for us. You know. But I love this. And then, so yeah, so then the stunted men stop the wagon.

Yes. Right? Lords of Rooks rest. So we're right by Rooksress as they mentioned. Made it a little weird that they were like, where's the closest port, Dusk and Dale, given that like a fairly memorable stretch of season two was Kristen Coles march from those locations,

one after the other. Anyway. And this is fantastic. Where's the planning between these two? This is what I wanted to ask you. I know it's a stressful time. Yeah. Were you getting some like,

John and Sontza, you couldn't have a pre-meeting? Just one. You cut really. No one could toss any bullet points into a Google Doc. No one? Now, Laris. You love a meeting. Laris didn't have time to grab the milk of the poppy.

Fine. They're in the wagon on the Raven's shit throne. Do you think Larry's? What are they talking about? Do you think Laris actually didn't have time to grab Monk of the Poppias? No, I think I like the idea that he is doing this on purpose so that Egon is in anguish and thus more reliant on him. But also more clear-headed than he was a milk milk. That's right.

The fog. The fog of the milk. More reliant on Laris, but also theoretically sharper, though not very sharp in this exchange here. I can't say he seems to be super lucid when like all he has to do is bow and say, yeah, I'm for Roneera, just for 30 seconds. And I get it. It would be galling if you were egg-on to have to do that. But you could have done it. You also could have shaved your head.

You could have- now he hasn't had the advantage that we have had of watching a night of the seven kingdoms and knowing that that really does work. I would recommend it, though. It's a great sit. I mean, if your cock is going to explode like a sausage on a spit, at that point, just say goodbye to the golden locks as well. Absolutely. Just say goodbye to all of it. Go incognito, my God. Come on.

Like, where's the wrong? The alacrity with which Laris just gives up the crown is among the funniest things that I've seen. He's like, oh, this thing? And I was like, no. What? No. When Laris reveals his identity and I was like, what? And then the crown.

No, I was in tears laughing. Are those guys important? No. Beheaded. Like, it's just like. Did that? Did you have a moment on that front as a Laris lover where you were like, boy, that is like a good, wow. What a monster?

He doesn't care about those guys for a second. Have you seen, he burned his own father and brother, your own face? Hold my hand. Loving someone means accepting their flaws. Right? Murderers. And I know are welcome. You love Damon.

I do. I do. Let's all just be honest about what we're willing to accept. What's wrong with us? I take the good with the bat. I take the creepy foot fetish and the patricide and whatever it's called fratricide. No king shaming here at the House of our. No king shaming.

Quick thinking. Yes. Got themselves out of a sticky spot. Temporarily. Temporarily. So what do you read in the Laris plan here? Is it, I... It's whatever it takes to survive to the next day.

I am biding time until I can figure out what's next. Yeah. Yeah. And he trusts his own intellect, frankly, reasonably to be able to figure out what comes next when it comes. But I also just like, this is just like an incredibly precious, important crown. And it's just sort of like... Insane. There you go.

Just absolutely insane to let this random captain of Haus' Daunton handle. Egon the Conqueror's Crown, frankly, how dare they? The next glimpse we get is Renera sharing the news of Allison's visit. It goes as well as we would have expected. I also just love, we've tracked this across the seasons. There are so many incredible, I mean, in general, the show's beautifully shot. And some of the Renera framings, in particular, like, some of the close framings we've gotten of, like, the glint on the eye, et cetera.

This was looking out the window up into the sky, talking about belief. I have to believe. And this is something where we're different context here, talking about I have to believe in Allison, the word, the bond, the reasons behind it. But with Renera, we're always clocking any mention of belief from a character who's like, the prophecy justifies this. The outcome of the sewing sanctions that, right? This is like an aura around the character that is important for us.

I was thinking a lot also about when Kristen, when Gwen's like, hey man, where's Amen? What's happening? Yep. And Kristen's like, he will come. He has to come. You know? And so there's that belief too.

Yep. I don't know. That's an interesting thing for me to think about. Like Kristen Cole's state of mind and what he believes, like what he's putting stock in at this point. Yeah. And he's like, we didn't bro out by the firelight night after night at King's Landing for him not to show up for me.

Is that the brobond or like what is he? I think even the fracture that emerged between them after Rook's Rest, what Kristen understood transpired in a way that very few people understand. And the way that Amund then cast him out, like the Heron Hall pursuit was as much about getting Kristen out of there and like punishing him as anything else. So I think the question of whether Kristen, who in general, as we'll talk about, is in just a state of shattered faith, right?

All of these things that I put stock in are just like the bodies around me after Rook's rest, dust in the wind, right? So the nihilistic view. And so I think it's almost like it felt to me less like believing in the pledge of their bond and more like what I understand to be true about Amon is that he will not be able to, he can't help himself. He's going to seek Damon out. Great.

I love that. And even though we then get this other interesting insight into what actually happens there, that's from Christ's perspective, what I, what I, I saw. Jace receives the Allison news by saying flat out this is a trap. Now, there is a trap coming, but not actually Allison's intention. Right. And, you know, Rook's Rest is fresh on our mind. We lost a very important dragon, a dragon rider at Rooks Ress, and that was a trap. It was. So I think a, Jace does a lot of unreasonable shit in this episode. Being suspicious of this is, I think, actually quite reasonable. We're not going to defend Jace a lot from here.

I am. Yeah, sure. Let's give it to him all we can. Why not? And did you see the jaw line when he said it's a trap? Did you see the jaw line? Did you see the hair? My goodness. Reneer tells her small counsel.

I thought this was fascinating. She tells her small counsel, the Greens know their defeat is written. Joanna, that is not what happened. That is not what Allison said to her. Hard to remember what was said. It's been mere hours for these characters. Who knows what Allen's childhood was like? Who knows what Allison said in the finale?

As you know, that drove me crazy, and I'm still puzzled by it. The Crown will pursue war and victory at any cost. That is what Allison said to... But does she believe that? I don't know. Like, here's the thing about, like, why does Allison want out in this moment? Yeah. You know, bathtubs of the world call to her, for sure.

Who among us? Second podcast this week we're talking about baths? Won't be the last. Nope. Okay. So there's that, there's like, I want to protect Helena. Yes. My one, well, Darren's also allegedly a good child, but like my one girl child that I care about or whatever.

My granddaughter. The female line, I care, blah, blah, blah, blah. I got kicked out of the small council. No one will listen to me. I thought I could rule from, you know, soft power from behind, blah, blah, blah. Phraising. But she, and I would say Chris and Cole both found out where the ceiling was on a, board advancement for women for the lower born you know, etc. So she's like, oh, you know,

it's that Rainey's quote right about like, you know, found a window in the prison like sort of thing, you know. And so like, so that's part of it. Her own frustrated ambitions or own, you know, like found the limit, found the walls of the prison. Yeah. Doesn't want any more carnage. Right. That wants it ends at the bloodshed. And I believe that. I believe that. I think, Because if it's not real, then it makes Allison an irredeemable monster. So, like, I lost a grandson. I'd rather not lose anymore. I think that the characters who find themselves in a place of finding the violence,

and especially at the end of this episode, because one of the lessons of the gullet is like, and we had a good conversation with Chris about this on Talk to Thrones, like, is there such a thing as a victor? Right. And that is part of the point of this story, right? It's literally the text. Yeah.

That's, like, very central to the story. the characters who look at the toll and justify it because the outcome is something that they believe is either right for them or in the case of like the looming specter of the prophecy necessary then you can make that calculus and what that says about your morality is interesting if alison is just like I don't care if all these people die then that I don't think that's the character that we have grown to really feel so deeply invested in I agree I just think as with the Laris thing there's just just like nine different reasons. For sure. You know, and I think when she says the crown will pursue war, I think she might, you know, amen will or Agon will. You know what I mean? But like, yes, for sure. At the end of the day, I don't know. And I think what's interesting is to think about what is Kristen's reaction to, you know, the two of them were like, so, so, so, uh-oh, reap, reap, reap, reap, right? Right. Yes. And Kristen's reaction, like, we'll all be beasts before this is over.

Yeah. And Allison's like, can I write enough scrolls and kiss enough sons and scheme enough schemes to at least get two people that I care of out of danger along with myself? I think all of it from Allison's perspective makes perfect sense as a pursuit as a framing. Basically, she didn't tell Reneera about like the triarchy. She knows that Amund wanted to secure the trierque because she was one of the characters to try to talk about it. Mostly she was forthright. with Renira about the overall state of play and her intentions and personal motivation.

She's not going to be able to follow through on that because of what she'll find back at the right keep tough. Great wrinkle, right? The thing I was interested in is what Renira hurt and received. Like the idea that, because Renera's counselors and son saying like, can you believe her, can you trust her?

Overall, obviously, especially given that Renera's own son and Queens Guard will lock her in her bedroom and imprison her. This like... Hot take. Not great. Not ideal. how often are the men and the people who claim to support me and bent the knee and said that I am the rightful heir. What was this actually going to look like for them to follow through

on that in real life? Like, I think in general, Renira saying, I have the conviction and clarity of being able to say, I know what is right. That all makes sense to me. I think that it feels a little bit in an interesting, dramatic way, of a piece with Renira, like, okay, she's receiving this as the Greens overall know that. they've lost, which is not what, to your point, definitely not. Not what Amund is going to do. Not what Egon is going to do. No, Aben's like, we got a bunch of Hightowermen. Not what the Hightowers are going to do. Not what Dary. So,

you know, to put, it's, it's too much stock being put in the idea that this like sense of one thing working out, one person coming to me, a pledge made, I'm chosen, I have to believe, means that everything will actually work out. It's interesting because we're watching it and we know that Reneer is telling the truth. And Allison, to the best of her ability, is telling the truth. Yes.

So we're like, believe women, right? Yeah. But if we're Jace or even Missaria, not those fuckers in the Black Council, like, that can eat shit. They can eat shit, honestly. Keltsa Gar, you can eat shit. Calcacar. Fuck off.

But Jason, I'm like, I get why he's unsure. Yeah. And that's fine to have a conversation. Yeah. To lock her in the room. I know you're not. No, no one's justifying that. But like, we're not going to do that to Agon or Amund, even at their ravingest.

For sure. It doesn't happen to men. What did you make of Missouria? Put that on the merch. My God. What did you make of Masaria's reaction, the way, like kind of the look on her face, the way that she asked if Reneira felt Allison can be trusted. You know, we've tracked over time, Jace's jealousy in terms of Masaria. This felt like a, oh, this is something to watch.

in terms of Masaria, seeing in a really undeniable way the hold that Allison has over Renera. And she's like, no, I'm the only sexy Burnett you're allowed to think about. It's just me. Reneira's like, I'm going to write to Damon, tell him to return with haste. We're going to fly to Kings Landing in two days. We get a little clock there. Amen. Meanwhile, confronts Allison.

She returns back to the Red Keith in the cloak from the end of last season, hood up, and is summoned to the throne room. room by the king and she starts to piece it together. He's like, well, that's not where I left Egon. She's like, did Egan roll himself into the throne? No, Vesaris is way up to the throne. The rehab is going great for Egon. She finds Eamond.

King is wild. Yeah. Him calling himself king. Though, do air math with me. He is next in line after Agon. Right? I mean, yeah. There's no, in the books there are, Agon has male heirs.

Yeah, yeah. Here he does not. Right. Jehara has been killed. Yeah. Blood and she is Jehara. They can't prop up a female air when the whole challenge to Renira's claim is she's a woman. Not when our whole platform is misogyny.

So like, so in the book he's Lord Protector, right? Yeah. And right. And they've, yes. A regid. And so here he's claiming to be king, which is, you know, it's not just like a more audacious aim in which it is. But it's a actually the air math is different here. There are not.

Yes. Right. Sons in the way. If Agon is definitely abdicated or is dead or whatever, I am king. That's right. Which would not be the case with, you know, and this is something that George R. Martin was like, oh, excuse me. He had some notes and some blogs.

Where's Baylor? He had some notes and some blocks, folks. Yeah, that is a great distinction, a great call. And like, this is for show, Amund. While he's in quite an emotional state and we'll talk about that more as we get to the later Allison scene, he's kind of wanted this. the whole time, right? We think back to the infamous, dumb little hats stretch of the penultimate episode of season one.

Amen and Kristen frolicking about Kings Landing. Kristen in his little cap, walk out. And Aeman was like, I'm the one who studies, who flies the biggest dragon, who knows how, like, I should be king. I'm so hot. Have you seen my jawline? My hair is flat ironed under the scalp. By always, I'm ready to be on a video podcast.

Yeah. Burned egg on at Rook's Rest. You know what, he did do that. Helena finds him in episode five of season two standing in the throne and looking up at the throne, right? Was it worth the price? We know he's wanted to sit there. When you actually saw him sitting there, a lonely figure in the shadows and the deep of the throne room as Allison walks in, which comp was more top of mind for you because we also get the blackfire close-up of his hand on the blade and

kind of like I'm propping myself up with this. That's Vassaris imagery. But holy shit the gall to sit on that chair. That's Damon. That's Damon, who has always been the mirror. It's also thinking about Jamie Lannister. Tell me. Yes.

Jamie Linister killed the Mad King Aries and then sat his tush on the Iron Throne. It went over great with Ned Star. Ned loved it. Went over great with Ned Star. No feedback. Ned loved it. But Damon. is most top of mind.

And of course, like there's just forever the parallels between Aman and Damon. You know, as we've mentioned before, you just move the D to the end of Damon's name

and it's Aman. Like, George is not being coy about this one. But they are forever like twin flames. And like as much as Amon like hates Damon wants to be, Damon, you know,

all this sort of stuff. So yes, when we met Damon in season one, right, when Reneera walks into the throne and he's just sitting on the throne. And he's just sitting on the throne. throne and she's like, what the fuck?

And he's like, I got you a necklace and later we'll be married. You know, like, and even's like, I too could marry a relative if I tried. Boy, now I'm flashing back to the olden house of our soundboard days and the gods be good that came from that very C&D&DM. Wonderful stuff. This is a tough moment for Allison. Yeah. Because she has found out a couple complicated things at once.

Eggana's not here, Joanna, and he's supposed to be because she did agree to let Rainira kill him. It's kind of tough when you're like, yeah, you can kill my son. I lost my son. Oh, no. I can't let you get my son because he's not here. My most important melty bargaining chip. He does really. It's just like a candle.

A candle who still has his very distinct hair. Amund is supposed to be gone along with Vigar, the most fearsome beast in the realm, and guess what, they are here. So that's also a problem. Alicent springs into action in, I think, a way we both found remarkable and really satisfying. A character who, her early arc, her early journey was like, you know, I always think of that moment with Otto, when he was really challenging, like, the, you know, was this not like, you know, you want to, were we not?

And she's like, how could I have known, right? So much of her early life. And it's not that she was doing Legos with old men. And that was an incredible, I guess. Old Valeria, boy, beautiful. The, the way that she was used and deployed by auto, et cetera, these moments of agency and action for Allison are very rewarding and satisfying to watch.

There is for her too a little bit of a recklessness like impersonating the king in a letter to Ormond. Oh, yeah. If you get caught doing that, you're fucked. I love it though. Because like we've watched Allison Plot and Scheme before. And Scheme and plot. And scheme and plot.

You know, she's done it through fashion. That's right. She's done it through wildly misinterpreting, like, dying men's words. you know, like all, you know, all these things. She's done, she's made decisive choices before. Yes. Now she's doing it in long distance cahoots with Renera. Right.

This is an agenda I can super get behind. Because I am team Reneera. Of course. Of course. Because I'm not a weirdo. Like Chris. And for Allison to be working, you know, using all the tools that Otto gave her in his really shitty job of being a parent.

Yeah. to help Rainira now? I mean, she's helping herself. Yes. But that's also satisfying, too. By proxy, she's helping her nearer and I'm like, yeah. Fight for Renera and that relationship. Sisters are doing it for themselves. Four themselves. For themselves. Literally five years I've been trying to get him to say it correctly. So good. That killed me yesterday.

You can listen to three chaotic hours of the Big Pig Pot if you want to know. But will you be able to hear that part? I don't know, because I hear we're all cross-talking. A lot of cross-talk. A lot of cross-talk. You know, seven people. one-one-pot. It's a joy. It's a blast. It's an honor. It is a gift. It is an Anna. She immediately gets to work here on this first conversation with Amon by using the truth to spin a lie, which is brilliant, right? He's like, where were you? Big Bath. You know, I love a bath. Yeah. You know, I love the lake. I was in the Kingswood, Amon, but the next thing she says is, I found myself of little use here of late, which for Amund is a very belief.

cover story because it is born out of his withering dismissal of her. In season two episode six, remind me of your place on the small council. You serve the realm well at a time I need. That is ended. I release you of your seat such as it was. So the thing that he did to her to make her feel small, the mother who all he ever wanted

was her affirmation and love. Wonder if that'll come back into play in this episode. She knows this is going to work. Because there are his, there are actions that he took. This was just, this was, this was great. It's fantastic. And also, like, so the question of what Allison's plan was is really interesting because, like, she did only give up, she said you can kill Agon. But, like, Rainier also has to kill Aman because he's, you know, in line. Yeah. And Darren. Right. In theory, because he's in line. Right. You know, et cetera. So, like, she's not just

giving up Agon. No, she is offering Agan on a silver platter. I will let you in and hand you him in his sick bed. Sending Eamon off to Heron Hall, which she are, you know, she flagged to Reneera, and Reneera has sent, right, maybe not her finest, but three Dragon Riders that away. And Damon's also over there. So like, you know, she's, when she's like, into the jaws of death. For sure. Give me a kiss and go die. Go die. No question. No question. Absolutely. He is going to have to be compelled because he says here, like, Egan's left me no choice. I have to stay and defend the city. which is actually correct and the wise right read. It's also correct what Allison says later that Reneer is going to bring many dragons and things could go very poorly there, but it is not the right decision to leave the city,

to leave Kings Landing the Red Keep, dragonless and defenseless. Not the right decision. Dream fires got it. Don't worry. Dream fire is on it. On it. We do have another group of warriors

entering the fold here, and this is a thrill for us. The winter wolves are here. We love them. We get to meet them in the show. It couldn't be better. Damon is armored and covered in blood. I love this because, like, he could have just stayed out to Kouraxis and, like, roasted people.

But he's like, I love blood. And did you, I know you watched the House of Dragonsville, Matt Smith's like, what I wanted this season was a lot more violence than they gave to him. By the way, his interview that he gave in that behind the scenes that they do, he's wearing a fantastic wig that I can. I cannot wait to see. It is like really resplendent and wavy and braided and I'm really excited for it. This fight, which appears to be a combination of two battles, if we're reading this correctly. Battle of the Red Fork. Yeah. Plus the fish feed is sort of in there. Yeah. So you don't think we're going to get more. You think this is just how we're kind of like getting the gist of it. Yeah. And I'm not mad about this because we got 24 minutes of gullet. That's right. And there are other Riverland, you know, battles. to be fought. So like, you know, this reminds us of like the Battle of Burning Mill or

Tyrion getting knocked out and missing the battle or whatever the case may be. It's like we just see the aftermath. And I'm okay with that. But yeah, demons out here covered in blood. But we should say if this is the fish feed, bloodiest day of the war. Does it feel weird to yada, yada, yada over the bloodiest day of the war? Is that why you think they're still getting a fishing? if there's a possibility that there's more to come. But like, I don't know, I think it is a difficult balance to strike where, like, the ability to show us all of these different showdowns on different parts of the map with different character sets is pretty tantalizing it all. So you don't actually want every episode to be a battle episode. You don't actually want that.

You don't want it from a storytelling point of view. And HBO doesn't want it because they want some dollars left in their coffers when the merger comes. So, like, yeah, Bloody State of War, Black Alley is here vaguely. in the background. We get to see her, but I'm really excited for that character. Do I need to retire my Bloody Ben agenda? Is it official Oscar Tully's subbing in? I think so. Okay. I will say that's a bummer. And I have some questions about that that we can talk about across the season. But I am an Oscar Tully fan. And I do like the way that he has really brought Damon to heal. Obviously, he embarrassed him in front of the group. We love that.

Aaron-on-season two is very entertaining. I think David is a king shame. I think it's entirely possible in his, the way that this sequence goes, where he's like, Yes, daddy. Yeah, because it's like, Carraxies will make quick work of them. And also, there will be no plague. And then Oscar's like, this is not our way. The Riverman must be returned to the mud and demons. I have a follow-up question to you.

Yeah. What do you think Edmier and Hoster Tolly would make of the idea that we don't burn our dead? Great question. I think Edmier would be relieved to give in the trouble that he had. Yeah, dumb him in the mud. Thurled. Listen, customs change. It's been a while.

So perhaps at a time it was we turned him to the mud and then they're like, you know, it would be sick. It's like some boats on fire. Yeah, let's like some fucking boats on fire with an arrow. You know what else is fucking sick? The Winter Wolves. Joanna tell me all about it. They're here. Roddy the ruin.

Yeah. Roderick, Dustin, Lord of Barrettown. He's got a really cool sigil spotting. He's got a really cool crossed axe. Uh, the winter wolves show up. This is the passage from fire. You know, and we've, we've, we've called him to die for this. Dragon Queen. Here is...

I just want to say again that you could not have been more right when you said, where is this in the early... Like, this should have been like the opening in the first... Because when it comes in the episode, you're like, oh, iconic. Iconic... Iconic character. People would have been, like, for the last three months. And it happens so early.

It's not like we had to, like, wait for it. It's in the first episode, so it's not like a year... You know, it's just sort of like, put that in the fucking trailer. We've come to die for the Dragon Queen. Okay, from Fire and Blood. Yes. 2,000 Savage Northman, Flying Queen Rainier's... quartered banners at their head rode the Lord of Barreton. Roderick, Dustin, a warrior so old

and hoary. Men called him Roddy the Ruin. His host was made up of grizzled graybeards and old male and ragged skins. Every man, a season warrior, every man, a horse. On a horse, not a horse, but like a horse. Thank you for clarifying. On horseback. The men are not also horses. Thank you. They call themselves the winter wolves. Some people are visual learners, so that was helpful. They call themselves the winter wolves. I was just trying to help the close captioning in case it wanted some help. AI, don't say I never gave you anything. Okay, they called themselves the winter wolves.

We have come to die for the dragon queen, Lord Roderick announced at the twins when Lady Sabbath Afray rode out to breed them. Okay. So good. The thing about the winter wolves is like this, so the stark custom is sometimes the gray beers go out with the intention to die. Correct. Because there's too many mouths to feed. And they're like, you know what, we're old.

Yeah. We're going to go die. So when he says we've come to die for the dragon queen, it's not like maybe we'll die, maybe we'll live. Or your fight, we'll see how it goes. But we hope to go back north. Yeah. No. No.

We've come to die. Commitment. And I'm thinking about that, thinking about we've come to die for the dragon queen. I'm sorry, I want to do it the accent every time. I think you should. I think you should commit right now to doing it in the accent the whole time. Comparing we've come to die for the dragon queen to Kristen Cole's nihilism, which is like we've, I mean, he's pretty much resigned to die. out here in the Riverlands as well, but with different levels of enthusiasm.

You know what I mean? Different energy. And if I were to pick one to lead me, I'd say it's Tommy Flanagan as Roddy the Ruin and, dare I say, in the House the Dragons built. Yeah. Listening to Matt Smith be like, Tommy Flanagan's here. Yeah. I fucking love him.

And then he was like, this is my favorite character of this. You know, it's just like he loves Tommy Flanagan. We love Tommy Flanagan. Sons of Anarchy. The Gladiator. I don't pick your poison. A pretty shoddy season of Westworld. Whatever you care about, Tommy Flanagan elevates it.

And I'm so excited he's here. I'm really hyped. We will hit a couple things in the book spoiler section that we're looking forward to with this character. It's good to have him here. I said we weren't going to have a lot of positive things to say about Jace. But here's one more. Let's just remind everyone, because it's been two years. The Winter Wolves are here because of Jase.

He flirted with Craig and Stark. They had an energy between them. They did. There was a spark palpable. Sarah Snow didn't make the show. No, but Kringen Stark. Paltable. Oh, yeah.

Jace secured the veil. He secured the North, and then he secured the crossing. He secured the twins so that the wolves, an army that he got for Team Black, could actually make it to the Riverlands. The Pact of Ice and Fire is why these characters are here. That is to Jace's credit. I think the fact that Jace has confirmed.

fuse that with being ready to wage dragon war on the front lines is obviously tragic outcome. At the time. But he had a feel for diplomacy. At the time, we compared, and Rainira does not compare favorably, his tour of Westrose with Renier's. If you remember Renier on her betrothal tour, was just sort of like, hey, fuckos, you're too ugly. I don't want to marry you.

You know, like, that was essentially her energy as she went around. And she was just like. Also a little, you're too old. I don't want to marry you. You're too old. You know, I don't want to get married. Whatever. Like, I support Rainira, but also diplomacy, never her strong suit. And if, like, and to Renera's credit, she sends Jace to do this. You know what he mean? So, like, if you can

understand what tools you have in your toolkit, and if Jace could just know his place, which is on the diplomacy trail and he's quite good at it. Yeah. He can flirt with frays. He can flirt with starks. He cannot smooch his own patrol before they go to die, but, you know. Do you think Jace died a virgin? Or you think they've been fucking? I don't know. It's been on. my mind. He had more energy with Krigan than he did with Bela. Bala deserves better. Bela deserves a hot guy who also wants to at least smooch her before they go to die on the gullet. It's true. I think the fact that Jace was so accomplished in terms of alliance building,

obviously then exacerbates his frustration. Why won't you pick me for more? From her nearest perspective, it's like, I want to keep you safe. I don't want you to die. That's why. It's a very rich text between the two of them. that leads to a just incredibly tragic place. Speaking of tragic, Kristen, Gawain, Philosophy 101. It's just wonderful to watch these two. Every scene is perfect. I just still can't believe this is the outcome.

Yeah. This is a book character who obviously we spent a lot of time to writing and to watch the journey. I hated him. Yeah. To watch the journey that Kristen has been on are broody boys still in the woods. They're camping. A lot of people, you know, Alison pretended to camp. Gwain and Kristen are camping. Oof's like, fuck camping. I would rather not. I would rather not. Thank you very much. When you saw Kristen Cole painting his shield, and I know you have a lot of really brilliant things to say about this. Or are you thinking about Tencel, too tall? Not too tall. For me. For kissing?

Yeah, for kissing. It's obviously about blowjobs. I can't believe it. We have to ask. Who do we have to ask? George R. Martin. George, come on the pod. We've got some questions asking you about sucking dick.

Oh, God. You know what I actually was? I wasn't, now I wish I had been thinking about Tenzel too tall. I was actually thinking about Survivor. And it gave me real going back to camp and painting the tribe flag after you didn't win a immunity and you needed to. Like, let me lean into some arts and crafts projects because everything is falling apart around me. It gave me that kind of energy. But, you know, anytime we can bring up something puppet adjacent, I think we should. And anything, anytime you can bring up a survivor,

I think you should. Great. One of our listeners did ask, like, in terms of the rope that takes Vermax down, they're like, could Vermax not have turned? He tried. And breathe fire onto the thing. Oh, fire making a challenge. Because he tried to chop. He tried to bite it. Yeah. And it was like two of four. Yeah.

Breathe a little fire. Fire making challenge. Snap that twine. You know what? That's one of those things that I almost wish I hadn't heard because it just sort of all. Not Baltimore. Once you know that, it's like, cool. He is a dragon.

That is a, that's a quick, strong flame that would have. You don't even need to worry about the husk and the flint and the, hmm. And the stiff wind. I'd say it's feedback to share, but they're dead. So it's not going to do them any good now. All right. What do you want to say about Kristen's paid by numbers, Arsing Craft, girly era?

I loved this. Yeah, that's great. So Kristen is painting on his shield, his family crest. The crest, the sigil of House Cole. We saw this at the very beginning of the show in the we thought iconic, Godsy is adornish.

Stretch of the story. I remember that? Simpler times. Allison's back in her blues. Back in her blue dresses. Yeah. Gards, he's donish. What do you like more in this show?

Wig watch or like hue watch, not he hammered one, but the hue of the garb. Not a horse, but a horse. Not the men are not literally horses. I'm just riding them. Incredible moment. I think you know it's wigs. It is wigs, yeah.

It's got to be wigs for you. But I think tracking Allison's fashion choices. has been fun. It has been. You know who's really fun this episode? Tell me. Ormond. His armor.

It was resplendent. Like, all of the religious iconography that's in that armor, very exciting. In general, great armor in this episode. But that was a very rich box. Bold John has some cool armor. Yeah. Thailand has some good armor. It's going to not work out.

Shimberwell for him. However is that armor. Yeah. Alan got his armor off for the quickness. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Corliss's armor is really great, too. I like the incorporation of the hand of the queen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good side. Armour's great. Yeah. But I think if you're going to be a sailor and have armor, I think quick release is important. It's important. I don't think Thailand got that memo. My whole plan is to not wind up in the drink. So boastful. Tough one. The sigil painting.

Kristen has been like obsessed with and defined by, I would say, the stock. that he puts in the symbol of the station he rose to. Right. The white cloak of the king's guard. We can think of that harrowing and great fight that he and Reneer had midway through season one. He was like cinnamon. Oranges. Oranges.

The throne? I am the crown. Oranges or the throne. I don't know. Kristen, we know you're hot, but come on. She's like, I can have adornishment a day when I sit on the throne. Not to mention an orange. What are you talking about?

I've never heard you make this. Incredible. Oh, what a memory. What a moment. When he got all up the ass of one of the cargled twins being like there's mud on your cloak. So he said the white cloak is a symbol of our purity. That was what he said to show some respect, A, with an A. One of the cargled twins.

I made the decision to let that information go from my brain. They're dead. I'd say it's a. good note to give, but they're dead. You know, they were on my mind this episode. Eric and Arc. Can I tell you why? It's not relevant to what we're talking about here, but there is a canonically established

second door in Reneira's bedroom. Oh, I know. We got some emails about this. No one even tried to open it. Now, it was locked during cargo bowl, so maybe it stays locked. And at that point, I would say, why is it there? Just make it a wall. I don't know.

When is a door, not a door? When is a wall? Should Ramirez have like summoned a syrax and jumped out a window? Yes. Or to like burn someone. Oh, to do that too. I just went to escape. But you're always thinking about murder.

This show brings out something dark in you. Listen. He's also. She does have a second door. Do you think she battered and splintered her hands on both doors or just the one? I hope both. Because if we didn't even try, if we didn't even try the back door, that would be frustrating and puzzling. Yeah.

Kristen has also tried to work hard. to distance himself from that more humble beginning, right? And it's something that in moments of another character trying to remind him of his relative standing and station, it has come up, right? So Gawain, when he showed up in King's Landing, and had been on the march, finally arrives, and he's like, you replaced my dad as hand of the king. What the fuck? One of the things he said to him is, and by a man from such modest beginnings, what a Gideon has sent the gods have bestowed on you, they have their whole bond and their beautiful bromance. And they have their beautiful bromance, end of season two, it's still coming up.

Steward's son from Dorn, fucking the queen of the seven kingdoms. Like, this is a wound and a source of insecurity for Kristen. So for him in this place of shattered faith after Rook's rest, being reminded that men are nothing in the face of dragons and dragon war and dragon fire, to lean into the reminder of the humble man is such a deliberate and intentional character beat that I thought told us so much so quickly. It made me think of in that season two finale conversation and scene when Kristen was like, I have no philosophy. And he holds a sword, right? He says, or rather my philosophy was this, was past tense, to protect the righteous and dispense justice on the rest. But now you

saw what I saw. The dragons dance and men are like dust under their feet. And all our fine thoughts, all our endeavors are as nothing. And then that's when he's like to die. It would be kind of a relief, don't you think? I was thinking, it's funny. So I was thinking about because we're in this nihil, I love that. Love you. Love when you apply your brilliant mind. I love you. I love you.

I was thinking in this sort of like nihilistic section of the plot that we found ourselves in, I was thinking about Beckett as a playwright and a nihilist. And there's this Beckett quote, who is love this Beckett quote, when he says, No, I regret nothing. All I regret is having been born. Dying is such a long, tiresome business I always found. You know, and it's just sort of like, that's so Kristen Cole right now. Yes.

Dying is such a long tiresome business I always found. Oh, someone's doing a rape? Hang them. Right. Sure. Yeah. Do you wish Gwain had been like, stop raping a la dunk? Yeah, I do.

Stop. I do. I wish you had done that, and I wish I had thought of Tansell. Yeah. Any Night of the Seven Kingdoms connection we can make is welcome at all times. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, Kristen is not really viving with Goyens.

Like the men, the men need a, they need a speech, right? They need a reminder. They need a lesson that we are not bees. Kristen's like, we are. Gwain's like, have you met Orman Hightower? I should be, you know, like, wait one to like sleep inns. That's right. He's a fancy man.

Yes. And Orman with his palmander, as you and I both independently found out is the name of the thing that, you know, just the orderly, like, the orderly way which we find Ormond High Towers camp, every tent is like, you know, perfect and in parallel with each other. And it's just like, that's how the High Towers travel. And Gwain's like, I'm sleeping in the mud with these rapist fucks. Are you kidding me? And Kristen, should we do something?

Like, we are knights, soldiers of honor. And Chris is like, you're their Lord Commander. Chris is like, I got bad news for you. We're beast, actually. I just, it's incredible because Kristen, he was never a fancy lad of House High Tower. He was never rich. But like, he did say every woman is the image of the mother. Sure.

Boy, did he. He sure did with an incredible cadence in the speech when he delivered that line. Wonderful. You orient your entire identity and worldview around being a symbol and champion of the house that you think represents order and righteousness. Divine righteousness, right? Are you talking about? Kristen. And then...

And like the white cloak or backing the high towers? Becoming Allison's champion. The way that he led the men out to Rook's rest with a... The whole reason he did that was because he was like spurned by Reneera. Yeah. There were like shitty or... He can't even exist inside like the cocoon of his own life. Self-deception anymore.

You know? It's just like an incredible place to find him. Really is. All right, Joe. Yeah. Other people at camping too. Oh, who's that? Adam? Yeah. And C-Smoke. Yeah. Olf and Silverwing. Yeah. Hugh and Vermithor. They're not at the gullet. No. Why is that? Where are they? Oh my gosh. They're on the banks of the gods eye. That's right. They're in the lake right by Heron Hall. They're kind of like tucked around a corner, I guess, so that Aiman could not see them approach. Right. Close enough to attack. Seemingly. Far enough a way to hide even though Alice knows exactly where they are. Alice found them. Because it's a lot. I don't know.

Dallas rules. Yeah. This was a really great section. Loved. A really great spotlight for my guy, Tom Bennett, who I absolutely have loved from the start, hearing Ulf's backstory about, you know, when he talks about, like, he wished to die more days than not, never knew his mother, and this priest from Esos who abused him. And we talked about this and talked to the front of me to think about Varis. Yes.

Where do you think about Melisandra and Gendry and the Digglige? and the Dick Leaches. I'm always thinking about Gendrian the Dick Leeches. King's Blood Indeed. Yes. King's blood indeed. I loved this beat from Ulf because it was like surprising to get this different.

We know we think of him as being so boisterous and showy. Yeah, comic relief. Yeah. What a different energy. You were so excited as soon as Ulf, I mean, we've been interested in the character joined the story, but because of the performer. Yeah, Tom Bennett and I love Tom Bennett. So this was really fun to see this different beat.

What it really felt like to me is that he shows up in season two and he's like funny and he's a little bit like menacing at the banquet at the end of season two. But I feel like they really saw what he could do and they wrote even more for him, another note for him to explore. So I thought that was really good. And to have him be like, should we get out of here? Right. And Adam be the very loyal like we should stay.

Quite. And then Hugh sort of just, you know, the swing vote in the middle. What do you think of that? Hugh has a little bit of a journey. I love like Adam not just saying this is what the queen told us to do, but like what are you going to, you're going to go back and tell her you're craven? Like you're afraid. Ulf, of course, is like completely unapologetic about it, which is in general his vibe.

You know, more of those little birds, right? Like the ambition, that's striving nature, very unfront street for him. He's like, I want what I want. So when he's like, when Alice, I mean, he's trying to take a shit interrupted by a goat by a goat. Is that goat Alice? Doesn't just spend time as a bar now. I feel like she might be a goat. It could be.

Or it's her like, goat all caps greatest in all time. Yeah, goaded. Fargo-hoat. That she could be the goat, that it could be her familiar, something like that. But like when we see the goat, Alice is usually not far behind. A real like sort of Black Philip, the Vovovovic, like sort of energy here. I'm into that. I think that would be fun.

I like, you know, the continuing, undeniable aspect of Alice's magic and how it's manifesting and the continued mystery, including like the question of what is her motivation exactly for appearing to them and saying, you're missing the battle, right? Now they don't make it back in time. Again, in an adaptive change because they are all at the battle of the gullet in fireblood. So that's different. We've made the gullet more of a family affair. What do you make of Alice showing up to guide them in this fashion?

What is the motivation here? I like what you said on Talk the Thrones when you were talking about sort of Alice's concern for what would happen to the people around Harenhaal or what would happen. I like this idea of her being like the Lorax. She speaks for the trees. You know what I mean? Like she doesn't. If Amid shows up on Vagar and these three dragon writers fight Vagar, they're going to torch all the land around Haran Hall.

Right. And Alice cares about maybe the people there, but certainly about the wherewood trees that are around there. You got to get the ingredients for the brain paste somewhere. Somewhere. Yeah. The trips aren't going to come on their own. So I think she's just like, get these dragons out of here, you know? I like that. I think that the, the fact that Hugh is kind of like opens in a place of, all right, this is what we're supposed to do, builds toward.

But for how long? Yeah. No, I do have some feedback for them, which is like it's only been a couple days. They don't like to camp. Not into camping. No. It's beautiful there. It's really just Allison who likes to camp near as many bathtubs as you can find.

She loves a body of water. She would really love it here. Um, Ulf, you know, that conversation about... What is the gods eye, if not the biggest bathtub? It is a fucking gigantic bathtub. Yeah. That is like, there's room for Jamie. There's room for Brian.

Yeah. There's room for... No, there's room for Owen. There's room for... I'm reading everlasting, folks. There's room for everyone. So good. It's great.

Um, Ulf's like, wait, I... I don't get a castle? Yeah. You know, I'm going to become a night. I can't... I can't live in a title. I can't drink in a title. He tries to tempt him with the...

The women, right? The promise of women. Like, well, I can get more women with the castle. We have removed them from the gullet to center the gullet around the characters. We centered around. But we've also put them in this location to have these conversations. For a reason, we're seeing something about all of them, right? So Adam is steadfast, right?

Orif is like, I need to get back to a privy that is more suited to me. Undecided. He's an independent voter. It's you're open. Yeah. Use open. Also, we saw a green man for the second time. We did.

This was a big part of the reason that we thought this might be the aisle of faces. Because the green man are deeply associated with the candidate of that place. However, we did see a green man on the mainland. Damon's on one last season. What the fuck is that? It like clip clopped over. It's got little horns. It's like a little like Sater kind of figure.

Clinton Liberty, the actor who plays Adam, like posted selfies with the guy in Great man makeup. It was really cute. Wonderful photo. Yeah, he's like my guy. He's a great Instagram follow. Oh, Clinton, Liberty. Having the time of his life. Fantastic. Big fan. Wonderful.

Allison. Yeah. Writing that letter. Very Otto of her. He was always writing letters, very Taiwan of her. And Helena observes that her mother seems frightened. And then she connects this to, because Allison is like, did you know? You of the prophetic dreams?

Did you know that? Oh, she's going to be here? She doesn't believe in Helena's prophecies, right? She's just like bug girl. Yeah. My sweetling. My sweet little addled bud girl. Bug, bug girl, yeah.

Allison, Helena, it says, after observing that Allison seems frightened, that Eamond is frightened to. Condal just co-signed this. Is this sanctioned to this read on the inside the episode. It's like, hashtag Helena was right. Helena was right. Amid is fucking scared. Scared. thinks that these dragons, if Renera brought her dragons to Kingslanding, that he would die.

That's what Condal said on the inside of the ad. What did you make of that? Like, how do you think of Amon in terms of fear? Do you think of Amon as a character? Like, is fear, is Amon's relationship to fear an evolution for you? Is it always present? Is it just a matter of- I think he's forever that little boy.

Yeah. And this has all been set deck. You know, like all of this is a mask in a costume. You know, the flat iron hair and the eye patch and the sapphire and, like, all of it is just sort of like, him dressing himself up like Damon, you know, to just posture around and just be like, I am hot shit. Actually, no, I'm scared. Naked and curled up in the fetal position at the local brothel.

That's where I am mentally all the time. That seems on my mind, too, is really emblematic of the way that the fear can be worn like a mask because we do see the real truth of it. Not only in the way he's curled up in that fetal position, which is so vulnerable and raw and bare and also like you are a. a tiny boy cuddling up to mom you want to fuck. But then the way he turns that into, I'm going to strut naked,

you're here, you're making fun of me, you're mocking me, egg on, I'm going to show you I'm not afraid. One of the things we've loved tracking over the seasons is the fact that Eamon doesn't wear armor. But one of the things that you pointed out in the trailers for this season is that he's suddenly wearing armor.

So I love that idea that suddenly he's like, okay, I told myself I wasn't afraid, but I can't really tell myself that anymore. I need to cloak myself in more protection. The way that at the end of season two, he begged Helena to fly with him and she didn't, the glint of tears in his eyes as he's, as he realized how alone he was.

You're going to die at the gods eye. I mean, that was tough. Tough to hear. And, you know, he, and I was like, maybe I don't want to go to Herald. He's like, I got to stay here to defend the castle. I got, let me no choice. Why would I go to Harnhall?

He loved me no choice. Right by the gods eye. Why would I do that? Oh, man. Yeah. And Helena, you know, he believes in, like, because Helena's like, I know you did at Rook's rest, by the way. Right, right. And he's like, what the fuck?

But also, I mean, Dragon Dreams, all that does is validate Amid's idea of Targary and supremacy, right? Yeah. I think back to Sylvie telling him in that early season two scene in episode two, like, when he said to her, they used to tease me, you know. Which is sad. It's sad, but... Is he responding in the right way? No, but it was sad. And the warning that she issued about the people who really get hurt when Prince's misbehaved, you know?

And then, like, of course, all of it with, you know, one of the prompts that Chris had for us on Talk to Thrones was like these bad sons and how Allison to Renera are both confronting with the way that their plants have been undone by like the... And we love that. Chris was like, kids suck. Right. Oh, God. Good, great stuff. We love that, that Rainis note from the tourney at the very beginning of the show, you know? Menwood sooner.

Balls full of seed and fistful of steel. Like, they can't wait to get out and fight, but then they're also afraid of dying. It's a very rich text. What's a quote about like men would sooner see the realm burn than put a woman on the iron throne? Yeah. To young Reneer. Yeah. I mean, also, that was also true.

Renice. Profit. Good stuff. Miss her. Miss her. Allison sends Sir Sorin, directs him to send his fastest writer to deliver this letter.

Folded immaculately, by the way. Oh, yeah. Beautiful technique with the little tab to put the wax over. Loved that. And by fastest rider, he's like, my dirtiest, smelliest writer? You got it.

He's fast because he did not stop to bathe or possibly did not stop to find, to dig a hole in ground to shit him. Just shit himself. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe.

And it's going to go over fine with Ormond. Before we meet Ormond, we spent some time with Corliss and Allen in the captain's cabin on the renamed No Longer Sea Steak now, the Queen who never was. And Corlis just wants to share a drink with his son. Some dragon water. Goes down smooth from him. Now that he's like burned through a bunch of other heirs, he's like, hey, I'm a man. And then even went to bail him and was like, you?

And she's like, I'm firing blood. She's like, no, sorry. So he's like, you need salt and sea. You? You're sorry. I've worked my way all the way down the list. Lainer's dead. Lina's dead.

You know, like... It's tough. The airs are dropping like flies. This was another bit of hubris here I thought from Corliss when he called Reneer's advantage absolute. Like the sewing was massive, obviously, getting the Riverman on their side. Massive, this Allison pledge, which obviously Corliss is not in the room for, but word has reached him of the intention based on that.

Big. But they don't know about the triarchy. They're going to learn in 30 seconds, but they don't know yet. They aren't putting any stock in the 15,000 troop High Tower Army or that dragon. That's a giant fuck. I thought the overhead shot of the camp was super effective to remind us how big that army is. And they're just like, no, like, what else could go wrong consideration? I mean, I think it's interesting because the show sometimes likes to hide from numbers.

Like, you know, we read that, we read that quote about the winter wolves. And it's like, obviously, that's not how many winter wolves are in this story, as many are in the book. You know what I mean? It's like, obviously they're like, we cast this many guys and put them in furs. And that's how many starks are here, right? But they, like, underlined 15,000 high tower men. That's how many are on the march. Yep.

With the whole ass dragon. Yeah. And a dragon rider. Behind a guy who's about to say one king is as good as another. Tough. Feels important. Feels important. How moved are you by Corlis' attempts to reconcile with Alan?

This is kind of an evolution in tone, I would say, in the approach. Zero percent. Thank you so much for it. How moved are you? Too little too late is what I would say. I think we're in a similar spot with this where, like, I love Adam. Yeah. I thought it was awesome to watch Alan kick ass in the Battle of the Gullet.

I thought that the moments of admiration for his father very organic and authentic Like, oh, look at you. Like, yeah, you're willing to put yourself at risk. You're willing to go draw the flagship out. And, yeah, the, just, like, it's reflexive father when he realizes it might be too late. I was compelled by that. Pining for a daddy? Is that what you would say?

He's pining for a daddy. He didn't even know. Great. Just the best. Oh, Patinson. Incredible. I can't wait for the Odyssey. I really like Corliss as a character.

And I think that Corliss's relationship to family, legacy, like what an air represents, what a real emotional connection represents, has always been kind of interesting across the season. It's definitely like one of the biggest parts of his personality that they have hammered home for us. For sure. I mean, in part to set up something like the fact that Lo Har is right when she says he's going to be completely undone when he sees high tide burning. And like he is, right? My treasures. The monument to his achievement. It stopped him in his tracks. It did, you know? That was interesting to watch. They're interrupted by. the sounds of horns because the triarchy is here.

To the gullet on the today. To the gullet on the day! We had to wait two years, but here it is. We loved that we got just another, is it the lanisters? Is it the gray joys? The red crockin is always welcome here on this podcast. The red crockin is a gray joy who loves to pillage.

All gray joys love to pillage. They do. They can't fucking help themselves. Oh, God. It's not as the triarchy. Always be pillaging. That's what the great choice is. Isn't that their house words? Those are the housewords. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do not so. We pillage.

What is dead may never die. Always be pillaging. Always be pillaging. Poetry. It is. When you're falling off the rope bridge between the spires of your castle because you're When it's time for a king's moot. One of the things you have to stress in your pitch to the assembled. Always be pillaging.

I am the storm brother, the first and the last, and always be pillaging. Always be applying eyeliner and always be pillaging. You know who got that note? Lo Har. The wartime eyeliner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The smoky eye. Yeah.

How do you keep that on in a sea battle? Oh, it's a setting spray. I see. Yeah. I see. Yeah. You have so much to teach me. Speaking of Lo Har, Thailand approaches in full kit, as she observes.

And Lo Har mocks him. him. He has no idea, right? He's like, let me tell you about these inlets and the path that we should take. And Lo Har says, can he's strategy, I can see why your king made you lord of the ships? And he's like, thanks. What color apple is Loher eating there? Doesn't matter. It's not important. It's a red apple. It doesn't matter. It's not important. And here's the thing I'll say about Lo Har. Fresh off the back of getting Anne Hathaway's Catwoman on your team, you can't accept

the L. Take a dub, take an L. Lohar's on your team. There are a lot of different red apples. You know, and I don't like them all. You, I don't like them all. You have to accept them all. Was that a Honeycrisp or a Pink Lady or a Sugarbee?

I don't think so. It's not Team Honeycris, Sugarby, or whatever the fuck you just said. Honey crisp, whatever. It's... Honey crisp, whatever. Frankly, how dare you? It's Team Red Apple. You should take all the red apples.

All right. Fine. Lo Har's not going to be on the team for long. so it's okay. Since the half jaw, half jaw sick. I mean, we thought halfhand was good. I thought cleft jaw was good. You know what cleft jaw said?

Always be pillaging. Always be pillaging, man. Oh, God. So this is the inevitable breach of trust with the triarchy that every single character said would come to pass. Amon, as we talked about at the time, this was Amon basically got Otto's book plot. go get the triarchy, right? Now, if you're like, who's the triarchy? I don't remember?

A lot of the season two finale was spent with Thailand and Loher and frankly still. And astonishing about a screen time. Wild that that happened, but it did. And then, of course, our guy the crab feeder, back of the stepstones back in the day, the stepsones to triarchy, this tension with Corliss that Loire here is like, this is why I came. Right? To get the guy who made things so hard for my mates. If you see someone in like really cool fun fabrics, it's probably a trierky. Yeah. They love a pattern. They do. They do. You're right. It'll have saffron, burgundys, you know. They mud wrestle at their parties. We learned

that. That was fun. Come and pregnant my wives. Do you think he did? I think he did. Then he enjoyed some good times before. I think he gave it the old Lanster try, the old Castile Rock try. He told Amund when he wanted to do this that they were little more than pirates, so he can't be surprised that this is happening. He's like, you said, but the pledge, the pledge was this. Oh, no, the consequences of my own actions. Allison was like the triarchy, may play at accepting terms, but they are not to be trusted. Your father knew this. And Kristen said, are we to invite these alien raiders, racist, into our water so close to Kings Landing. No one thought this was a good idea. And sure

enough, well, it isn't. It isn't. It is. I mean, they're still fighting the battle. True. They're taking out some of the Pilarian fleet. They're still doing what they said they would do. Yeah. So, like, is the motivations and are the tactics, like, are the motivations self-serving? Yeah. Are the tactics self-serving? Yes, but they're not like, it's not like they showed up and then just, like, turned around and didn't do their job.

True. Just as for the track. You know what? It's a great point. Part of wanting to out the air to Reneera's throne. Well, with some help from inside the house. But, yeah, I mean, it's true. part of wanting to take down Corlis is diminishing the Valerian fleet, which obviously benefits Team Green and seriously, seriously hurts.

Team Black, is the Triarchy going to be like a helpful ally in any other way? No, no, no. Short term? Useful. Ormond. It's time. We pan Tissarion. We see Tissarian in the foreground here. Beautiful. We got to glimpse Tessarion flying very briefly at the end of season two. Tessarian here in front of our screen. in full, no writer. Darren is not on Tissarian here.

Tessarian is in a pen. And I think that this feels like the show just committing fully to the bit at this point. It's like we're going to really show you Tessarian, but we're not going to show you Darren on the back. We know that you're waiting. Let's have some fun with him. I also think Ormond Hightower in his like,

pometer sniffing, all of the tents are aligned kind of way. We keep our dragons in a little pen. Well, and that's bad. When we're on the, no, I know it's bad. Yeah. You should not.

Pen in a dragon, there are very many cautionary tales about keeping dragons and confined spaces. But I just love the idea. I don't love it. But I love the idea that as he's traveling, they have to like take down, put up, we have to like rebuild this pen at every stop. Given his, oh, this messenger smells like shit, let me, let me hit my little perfume bubble. What do you think? Does he think like dragon flame? Does that smell good?

Smells like a barbecue? You know? Great question. But probably like all high towers, he's like dragons. Yeah. Useful weapons, but Philthabies. You know? Something like that. This is a great, great, like, royalty, posh accent. I love it.

It did make me think the pen, it made me think of Danny. Obviously, this is a stretch house of the dragon of the story where dragon riders are routinely keeping their dragons, and sometimes they're in the dragon mont, and they're in a natural habitat, but sometimes they're in the dragon pit, right? And, like, a place that they should not be, it really, I think, makes us think of Danny, though,

chaining two of her dragons in the catacombs of Marine. Guess what that was fine? It was not fine, folks. And then, you know, that moment when Danny is like thinking back on her own history, but not really heeding it and saying to John, they filled people with wonder and awe, and we locked them in here. They wasted away.

They grew small and we grew small as well. You should not be keeping dragons in a pen. It's tough. She's talking about the dragon pit. Yeah. Wasn't great. We meet three new characters in this scene. We meet Ormond High Tower,

bold John Roxton and A boy! A boy! Mystery young man! A boy! Let's talk about all of them, or mint. We already talked about just how, like, iconic this is. So he's the head... We should say he is the head of house high tower.

He's not like beneath Otto, the mysteriously missing Otto on the hierarchy here. He's the head of the house. Because the head of the house died off screen and now he is head of house. He is Otto's nephew. He took Darren.

to ward. He doesn't like smelly stuff. He doesn't care if anyone knows it or if he's going to offend them by making it clear that they smell like shit. And this was so good, we have to see it. Bring urgent word from King Aidman. King is he now? Incredible. Okay, so, Joanna, tell me, like, your reaction to all of this. Just the kind of like eccentricity that we glimpsed right away, right? Incredible, very memorable. But one king is as good as enough. Also, when he's reading the scroll, we glimpse abdicated on there. So he's kind of like leaning into a misunderstanding. Oh, they think Agon's dead?

Sure, why not? Right. That's not actually what the scroll says. So what did you make of his response there for a character we just met we've spent 30 seconds with? What does it tell us? I mean, here's what I think. I think Orman thinks that he goes to Wolden and crushes Ranier and all of that sort of stuff. I mean, he's head of House High Tower, so maybe he doesn't want the job.

But like... Don't the High Towers always want the job, though? Hand of the King. I mean, they don't know what? They want control. They want power. They always have. He just, like, this is what Otto wanted.

This is what House High Towers wanted is to, like, to be de facto kings, right? So it really doesn't matter which Targaryen butts sits on the throne, right? Um, I think he wouldn't mind if the one he took to Ward sat on the throne. You know what I mean? So he's like, Amen, Egan, the one that I have under my thumb and, you know, entirely. Right. It's as good as any other.

I'll rule them all. Naturally, it made me think of my single favorite moment in the entire show, which was Hobart Hightower. When he was a child and not near. He wanted to advance the high, Hobart wanted to advance the High Tower agenda. Otto wanted to advance the High Tower agenda. Allison eventually wanted to advance the High Tower agenda

and then had some regrets about it. Gwain wanted a nice off bed to sleep. Wanted to be at the end. When Allison emerges at the wedding and one of our actual favorite moments of the show in the green dress, light the beacon, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, Team High Tower behaves in a certain way. So this felt great. They're like, we got the money, we want some power.

When, and listen, this is true by the end of the episode. Yes. Ryan Condal was going around, likening Orman High Tower to Taiwan-Lannister because he was like, he's the richest guy. in the land, just like Tywin Lanister was. Yeah. I think Corliss would have something to say about that, except... Just like a hit. His house just burned down, so maybe not.

Yeah. But Corlis Valerian is quite wealthy. But Orman Hightower in his shiny, shiny, religion-coated armor is here. Yeah, I really liked this. Our listener Hannah Roden, likening this introduction of Orman to the introduction of Tywin-Lan butchering the deer in season one. You know, so like when we meet Taiwan, it's a very memorable introduction. This is a very memorable introduction to Mormon.

To me, yes, I loved it. I mean, I think Taiwan, nothing touches Taiwan. That's like God's here. But like, this was incredible. If you carried a pommander, which is a little decorative ball of incense that you carry around with you, what's the scent that you would go for? What essential oil are you putting in your diffuser? What a great question. So I think I would want like a bunch that I could choose.

Yeah. But the prompt is if you could pick one. To suit my mood. Sure. But if you could pick one. Well, I think it would have to be something that I found pleasant but also masked smells really effectively. So it's like something that, you know, subtle and soothing and calming like like chamomile is not going to cut it here. We need like a.

Lang Lang is not going to do it. What about like a clove, you know, a nutmeg, cinnamon kind of like a something that. Though then it would make me hungry. Yeah. You don't want a cookie. I was like a kid still like this. If you had like a, you know, Christmas cookie candle or something or like warm vanilla sugar body wash, I'd be like I want to eat that. I wouldn't, but it would smell delicious and I'd want to.

So I don't know. Would I be more disciplined in my old age? I'm not sure. What would you pick? Would you pick something like piney? I would say eucalyptus or tea tree oil that like really sharp. Northern California kid. Yeah.

Yeah. But that like, yeah, that sharp smell would really like cut through the manure scent that he's trying to mitigate here. Eucalyptus is really nice. Very like kind of spa energy. I like a lavender. Lavender would be nice. Not sure it's strong enough for this. Yeah, it's not strong enough.

I think you need something that's going to like make your nose hairs kind of like curl up. What about citrus? Sure. You know? Look a nice like a man. Well, Meyer lemon. Oh. You're not a fan.

No. Tell me why. I don't like Meyer lemons. And not only do I not like myer lemons. lemons, but I like lemons so much that like when it's accidentally a mire lemon, it's tough for me. Unbelievable. We don't need to know this about me. Let's go on.

I think it would be difficult to be on a field of battle if smells bothered you this much, because one of the things that we know to be true is they never tell you how they shit themselves. Does he ever leave the high tower? It's a great question. Dean, our listener, Dean said, I took it that he recognized his sister's handwriting no matter what it said. She signed it as King Amen, but like... What do you think? I don't know. Does he know it's from Allison and they're in Cahoot?

So they're cousins, right? I don't know that they're corresponding enough that, like, because she didn't even know what, how Darren was. So I don't know that she's, like, writing a ton of letters back to Old Town. That's my thing. The fact that she had to ask Gawain, what's my own kid like? Like, she and Ormond are not in touch. I don't think he knows her handwriting.

I don't think so either. He does know quite a bit about Bold John Rockston, Brasso, from Andor is here, thrilling. wonderful. So they both, we have two new Valerian Steel swords in the show. They both carry them. Ormond carries vigilance, the Valerian Steel Sword of House High Tower. John Roxon carries Orphan Maker. Orphan Maker! Incredible name for a sword.

Vigilance. His armor was cool, too. Very cool, the rings. I feel like, I feel like I'm Ormond High Tower. I'm renaming my sword. If I'm hanging out with Bolt John Rocks and he's like, have you seen my sort orphan maker? And he's like, have you seen my soul in Vigilin's? I mean, I would react that way Vigilance feel so high tower coded. It's like, ooh, we're from Old Town and the high tower and the proximity of the faith. And we're like important and rich and

handsome and well-groomed and always smell good. Vigilance. And we're gingers. Speaking of, speaking of, there's a young man in lovely kind of plush, like green, velvet livery of some sort. The first glimpse we get is Ormond and this young man, they're standing in profile in their tent very close to each other, you know, in conversation.

And then this kiddo refers to him as sire. Which is an insane thing to say. Crazy. We have a few possibilities. You called kings sire. Ormond asking people to call them. Ormonds. Sire.

It's kings and vampires. What if? Dude. We always talk about the adaptive liberties because Fireblood is a unreliable narrator. You could go in any number of directions. Maybe that's one of the reveals that's still to call Mormon vampire. It could happen. The vampire Ormond?

My name is Arun and I'm an addict. Why not? It can happen. It can happen. Here are some possibilities for who this kid could be. He could be one of Ormond's actual children because Ormond does have kids. Sure. He's got multiple sons who are.

read the story. This could be one of them. This could be his squire. Sure. Fifteen thousand strong preparing for battle. He does send him to do a task. Make sure this guy has a tent. And for fuck's sake, make sure he gets a bath. Right. Smells like shit. He could be his ward. They do not tell us who the character is. I agree. They don't tell us who that character is. He has red hair. And he's wearing a lot of green. And we saw a dragon. We did. And that dragon did. And that dragon did not have a rider with him. Where could that character be? Moving on. It's incest o'clock. Dick Talk. Orphan maker. Chris just simply could not stop talking about Amon and Allison kissing.

It was something that really reached him and moved him. And we'll explore why. Allison appeals to Amon. She's like, I got to get this guy to Harron Hall. I made a promise. I got to figure this out. She tells him a thing that we know she does not believe, right? In midway through season two, she said to Kristen, you know what he is, what he has somehow become. Like, it's undeniable how Allison sees Amid. That's not a question. She's got to gaslight him love language, words of affirmation, specifically from my mom, I want to fuck. Yeah, mommy. To be clear, the mom he wants to fuck. A horse. I was pretending to be Amid for a second, just to get that on the record. She's a horse,

not a horse, you know? Well, well, Elicent's come a long way from taking down dragon orgies to smooching your own son. What a journey for Alicent on the... What a fall from grace. My God, like, lecturing a young Reneera for the queer customs after the whole you were trying to copulate with your uncle on the balance of a pleasure den business, right? Ended up marrying two of her kids to each other. Right? She didn't love it.

And now her own son is kissing her right. on the mouth. And he's like, I'm going to have a banquet in your honor, the decapitated head of my uncle. And then I'm going to jerk off because I want to fuck you and you're my mom. That's what happened in this scene. This was some of the best acting on the show to date. Olivia Cook's facial expressions here were just honestly astonishing. I don't know. Is this a meme yet? If it's not, it should be. I really hope this becomes a big meme when he pulled away. It was just incredible. Let's make it a meme if it isn't yet. Can we commit to that now? You don't have that power. You know you do. I don't, I mean, I don't, I'm going to Twitter. Make it a meme.

To your adoring, and your adoring fans. Mallory has spoken. You have your desk. Get rid of Matthew Ree's sliding off a chair in Widow's Bay. No, I love that. I love that. Keep the Widow's Bay memes coming. That show fucking rules.

She touts, you know, she says, I know you're afraid. I'm afraid too. And he's like, fuck that. I'm not afraid. Right. So that part didn't work. But the, hey, uh, Heron Hall. You can be safe there.

That did kind of work, which doesn't make sense. As we talked about in Tucker Thirds, Amund has a mural in his room. Of Heronel, melting. Ballarian and Egg on the copper burning. So that was bizarre, I thought. But you should have been king. That does work.

Mommy telling you, the mommy who used to say to you and you were a kid, like, your obsession with these beasts goes beyond understanding. Who was always like, why are you this way? This is all he's wanted. And it's part of why he curls up next to Sylvie. You've got better hair? He does have better hair.

You speak the language. Though I like Agon's waves. The waves. You know, lovely. Yeah, I do. Beautiful. You would have him shave them, but that's okay. Now I would.

I mean, at this point, he's trying to not be immediately identified as a Targaryen. So, yeah, now I would. Joanna, Eamon's thoughts on incest, different from Allison's. Yeah, he's fairly pro. Loves it. Yeah. Wishes that he had gotten to marry Helena. Yeah.

Jealous of a vaguen't. Yeah. With that I can marry my sister. Would it. I'd love to. Yeah. And he's got a bit of a mommy thing. Sylvie.

Older woman. The mother's milk. Definitely in the image of Alicent, the love he wanted and didn't get. We know why the show is doing this. We do. Pretty into it. Me too.

We'll talk about that more later today. Should we watch the kiss? Just for the sheer pleasure of it. Yeah. I shall host a feast there in your honor. And black carrot. Hall. Thus my uncle's head looks down from a spite.

And I just unbelievable. Give Olivia Cook the Emmy. I loved it. Okay, can I just tell you? Quick peek behind the scenes. I got here early today and I was preparing for the pot. I was sitting here preparing for the pot and they just like kept playing those clips over and over again. Did it feel right?

Did it feel good? I just kept hearing the like the smacking of the kiss sound. It was pretty tough for me personally. And you were like once again, not for the first time this week reflecting on how every show you're covering involving. And then it would circle back around to your dragons. Your dragons creed. An appropriate response, I think, to what we just saw. I agree.

Even for Thrones, parent kid incest is rare, though not for Amon's mirror character, Damon, who delusinogenic, where would paste, where would tree long, dreamt about to crawl back inside the womb in a certain way. With his tongue. That was the way he wanted to crawl back inside the wound. Correct. Of his mother. Where are you on Allison's sex life right now? I'm sorry.

I don't know. Read this part of the notes. So, you know, when Reniro was out for a night on the town, the vision we got of Allison's was her just like, and it was sad. Flat on her back, prone, under Vassaris, pumping away, gaping, magical leprosy sores, covering his flesh. She's a shrewd. Sarah's sore pumps. The shorthand.

It's a shorthand in the nuts. There's the Laris foot stuff, the aforementioned Laris foot stuff. The sex with Kristen seemed hot and pleasurable, but even that was befowled because when they were fucking, oops, she lost a grandkid. Helena walked in, it was like, they're murdering. It just blood of cheese just happened. This is tough. I like Allison's at some point to just enjoy a big bathtub. with a consenting partner that she's not related to.

Yeah, that would be great. It does not have gaping wounds. I hope she's at least masturbating in the big bathtub. I'm sure. She's certain. What else is there to do? I'm certain when she's like, Amon, I was in the bath for her a week.

It's waterproof. Jace. Speaking of complicated relationships between mother and son, Jason presents his own mom. You know what I'm against it? Were you surprised? Well, parse Jace's motivation and Rainier's response, but were you surprised that Laurent was like, cool? Or does it fit with just the men always?

So my understanding, when he says, like, you're supposed to die for your queen. Yes. What is he literally? Anyway. Yeah. Your life for hers. Right. He knows that the outcome will be.

He's going to die. Yeah. I've come to die for the dragon queen, right? to keep her locked in her room. He's like, you've got to do this. And you're probably going to die. But it's going to be worth it because she's going to live. This is just nuts.

And Lauren's like, the patriarchy makes a lot of sense, man. When you put it that way, should get Keltegarian on this? Caldegar's like, sorry, I'm busy ignoring her whales. Her screams. I'm otherwise occupied. Yeah, this was, I was really, I mean, it effectively conveys a point obviously. Tough beat for Sir Laurent, a character we've, we've, enjoyed. Yeah, really, really tough. I did enjoy Reniro when she closed the doors in Jayce's face

when he was like, if you die, and she's like, you can at last be king. I thought that was very good and very funny. Yeah, I was prepared for this only because this is not what happens in the book, but I was prepared for this because the scene of her beating down the door was like in all the trailers and I was like, what is this if not? Yeah. Them trying to keep Renier from the Gullet. That's right. You called that on the trailer breakdown. Well, you did. I mean, yeah. You did. I was just like the doors always seemed to be locked at Dragonstone. Who knows why? Bela notes to Jace,

this is treason and you shouldn't do it. Right. She's like, patriotic, you're not great. The manic glint hits his eyes. Yeah, did you take this as Targary Manness? Uh, no. But it's entirely possible, you know? It's a risk.

Talking about destiny purpose? For sure. I think it feels like maybe, yeah, weaning in a couple different forms. for this particular family. I think that this is, it is really interesting as a character beat, one of the last

that we'll get for young Geras. Because I think that he is sincere and wanting to keep his mother safe for various reasons. He lost Luke and that is a wound and a source of pain.

He doesn't want to lose his mom because he would miss her and he loves her. Also, that would be the end of his claim. Right? That's it. No one's supporting Jason for Nera's dead.

Oh, he's very right. Like, like if Agon dies or Amen dies, like there's a clear line of blonde succession that they can follow over there. If Renera dies, they're like, you're a bastard, we're out. Right. But the strong boys, without Reneer, it's over. Right. And that insecurity born of being a bastard is so present here in so many ways.

Maybe there's missing blonde babies. Well, no update on them. The, like, practicality of that from Jace here of, like, I kind of know what I wouldn't be able to maintain. But then there's also just the baser. when his response to the sewing was even this you're going to take away from me. Like I ride a dragon and that's the one thing I have to basically like tell everyone to fuck off who says you're a bastard. And you're going to dilute my claim. You're going to dilute my claim.

The magnitude of being a rider. He is so desperate. Yeah, he wants to protect her. But he's so desperate to go out and prove himself. But like Reneer has been desperate to do this her whole life. And she was told her whole life to like, you can't do this. don't get to do this. And she, like, took her dragon and went to Dragonstone anyway to hang out on that one bridge that they put in front of the volume. It did look good at that bridge.

Yeah, it looks great. The clouds. Um, I love that part of it, that, like, irony that they are both, they're doing the same thing to each other. I think with Jace is the extra degree of the gendered. But like, it's Reneer's time. You know, she was told no, no, no. Totally. Oh, he's wrong. No, I know you're, I know you're not. I know you're not. I know you're not supporting it, but I'm just saying, like, like, in terms of, like, parsing the psyche. In terms of, like, teenagers being told they can't. Yes. She was. She was. told she couldn't. Right.

And so maybe she should like think about that differently with Jay's, for sure. Yeah. But if she isn't and she's like, it's, I got to do this. And by the way, like, Reneera, neither of them have fought in a battle. Right. But I think Reneera, I don't know why, but I think Reneer has more like dragon experience. No question. We met her writing her dragon.

You know what I mean? I'm like, obviously, like, Jace trained on his dragon and stuff like that. But it's just like, but also, like, Vermax is a young dragon. Yes. Syrax would be much more capable. Much more seasoned. You know? No question. Like when sheepstealer flies in and sheepstealer is huge with like giant scale, you know, like, and those, I don't think those, I don't know, what are we calling them?

Grappnals. Yeah, grapnel. I don't think those grapnels could have permeated sheep stealers. Yeah, a tougher, a tougher scale. Vermax and Moond dancers, tender little teens, you know what I mean? Yeah. I know. They're not fully mature dragons.

Jace was not ready for this. That's just a fact. I agree with you. I think that Reneera and. Syracs are just more seasoned. They're more attuned to each other. I think that the fact that, you know, Jason and Renera are kind of wounding the other and the way that they specifically feel wounded.

I am put on the sidelines under the guise of protection, but really that makes me feel like I can't do the thing that I know I'm equipped to do, et cetera, is like a real tragic element here. Yeah, yes. And again, I know you're not defending Jace, but like the difference being like King Viseras putting his daughter in her place, and he can because he's the king. Yes. And she's his daughter. No question.

And the son putting his mother in her place. And his sovereign. His queen. She's the queen. Yes. But she gets oppressed on both sides of the generation line because she's the woman. Totally. And he gets accomplices inside of this.

Exactly. Yeah. I think what Jase does here is irredeemable and undeniably wrong. I think it stems from a place of like, we have enough understanding of his history and his wounds and insecurities to kind of understand how he would arrive at this point? You agree with Missaria, as you always do. It was just giant super... I don't know how she said it.

The accent has gotten... Better. Better. Way better. Better, which is a welcome. It's a relief. The bar was in the bottom of the gullet, but she cleared it. It's a relief.

Reneira's reaction, I think, makes complete sense and is totally justified, right? She's got this entire life, like you noted Vesaris, everything dating back to you can't go there. And, like, Otto didn't let Viseris. go either back in season one episode two, but like, Reniro was capable and actually got it done and it didn't matter. It didn't lead to any in the next circumstance where Renera wanted to do something to everyone saying, okay. And when Renera says in this episode, I may appear to have the weak and feeble body of a woman, but I possess the heart and spirit of a king, it is undeniably true. I thought Emma Darcy, as always, they spoke so brilliantly and beautifully about the character and

Beat's in the inside of the episode, saying it's control in the guise of protection. What a perfect way to put it, right? It is gendered. She knows that this is gendered. She's well aware that her warrior spirit would be heralded, where she male. Exactly. Now, we do have examples. Again, Jace, it's like, no, you can't go do this. Vassaris, no, you can't go do this. But if for Nero work, no one's telling Eamon not to go out to battle. Exactly. No one's telling Eamon and Egon not to go out to battle. Like, absolutely not. Yeah. Um, this reminded me of, uh, one of my favorite, Shakespeare Alliance. Uh, Bard, always welcome. Which Beatrice says, much to do about nothing. Oh, that I were a man. I would eat his heart in the marketplace. Um, but we got a bunch of emails

about this because I may appear to have the weak and fuel body of a woman, but I possess the heart and spirit of a king is something that Elizabeth I first, uh, a real sovereign said at Tilbury to her troops. Um, and a lot of people remarked on it. I, I've seen reactions all across the map of like how people felt about it. Some people like love this. Some people are like, why would you put a real world quote into a fantasy setting? We got a couple, I thought, interesting emails. So our listener Emma sent in via her boyfriend Joe said this, but she sent it in for him.

Okay. Joe, write your own emails. But okay. Joe said, even if cribbing from QE1 wasn't lazy, it would still be enormously at odds with Reneer's character. Reneer is a queen desperately trying to reject the constraints of sexist norms. Elizabeth I embraced those same norms, leveraged them to her advantage, and wielded power as a result. The two characters could not be more dissimilar. Elizabeth famously eschewed marriage.

Reneer has been married twice. Renera rides one of the largest dragons in the realm. Elizabeth never so much has attended a battle. The speech from which the line is copied was given before her soldiers marched to face the Spanish armada. They did so, while distinctly, queenless. Elizabeth's most lasting achievement was likely deciding which group of religious men, would hold outsized and unjustified power. Joe said early in his email, I'm Irish, so I might have a strong bias here.

I really loved that part. Anyway, Elizabeth's lasting achievement was likely deciding which group of religious men would hold outsized and unjustified power over her entire realm for centuries to come. As far as we can tell, Reneira last saw a religious official when she had her super secret best paled up with Allison in the septip balear that one time. And even then, she clearly couldn't wait to be shot of the place. So I thought that was interesting. I think it was interesting comparing like,

as we think about Allison, working inside of the patriarchy, and Queen Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen, like, working inside of the patriarchy to wield power and Rainira trying a different path. Yeah. Though young Renera was very opposed to,

felt viewed marriage and the child bed as a... A death sentence. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Our listener, Liz, says, The immediate context also stuck me as interestingly contrasting. Elizabeth said this line to a speech to soldiers massed and waiting a potential invasion.

It is clearly performative in a way that Reneer's privately uttered line is not. Does Reneer actually believe her body is inherently weak? Girlfriend rides dragons. Maybe she believes it in the moment under the circumstances and with her hands bloodied from pounding on the door, or maybe it's just an awkwardly placed reference. So anyway, a lot of people liked it. I thought those few critiques were interesting from our listeners. We talked about this a lot at the end of Thrones.

like, you know, there were just occasionally like either real world quotes or characters quoting other characters inside of the show. And we were just sort of like, that bumps a little. And so like to me, you know, it bumps a little. Yeah. I'm not mad about it, but it bumps a little. So, you know. Yeah, it's interesting. I thought that like I do think the decision to incorporate a real world quote is kind of an always fascinating choice in this universe.

I think that the like Reneira, so we've talked over the prior seasons about, you know, those, like Reneira, when Damon and the council, when they're at the end of season one, are kind of doing Dragon Math and plotting a war and Reneer is in childbirth. Those moments where it's like, screaming once again being. And yeah, and Caldagar's like, can't hear you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot. La, la, la, la. The, like, undeniable aspect that something is different for her than it is. is for the men who are trying to tell her what to do

and what she's allowed to do and what is safe and what is not. So, like, Renier kind of acknowledging that in this capacity, in this moment especially, where she's like, I'm used to all those other fuckers in my counsel trying to tell me they know better, basically, like, trying to rule my kingdom while I'm standing right there. But my own Queensguard, my own son.

Like, what hope is there if even they do it? And so, like, the, I may appear, I viewed it less as Reneira feeling that way about herself and more like, I know that that's what they see, which felt then very in keeping with those conversations at the end of season two with Masaria about like, but I was never taught, like, what's a foible? Right? He never put a sword in my hand. And so then in this sequence here, when Reneer picks up that sword, what is she doing with it? Is she there stabbing people the battle of the gullet with the sword? No, she has to take that implement of war and shred a gunner.

of the, as Emma Darcy put it, the ruling queen, this is the quote from inside the episode, she kills off the perpetual obstacle. This is shredding the dress. She put on the riding letters and then can't use them. Yeah. Right. So in the writing letters, leather still, shredding this gown, Emma Darcy said, she kills off the perpetual obstacle, which is the way she's perceived. And from this moment forth, I think she takes on the image. of a king. Kill the queen, let the king be born. I love it.

Oh, man. Great stuff. Great stuff. So this was harrowing, as is the battle. We've hit a lot of stuff in the battle already. Anything just overall is like a set piece in a television show or a key beat in the story in terms of how this was filmed, the scoring, the naval tactics, the blend of point of view characters that you want to hit that we haven't before we get into a little bit more of the sheep stealer of it all? I don't think so. I mean, I think they did their best.

I think they did, you know, we saw all of the practical ships that they built. Yeah. I think they did their utmost. Wet tank, dry tank. I think they did their utmost to like make Lo Har and Thailand characters to give us Alan. I just, it wasn't like wholly successful for me. But I thought it was inventive, like some of the, you know, like, you know, Corlis being like, I'll lead her through this straight and she can't follow and she can't, you know, and like all of that. I thought it was really creative.

It just didn't, like, emotionally hit me the way that the best versions, you know, like a heart home or something like that. I don't care about Lo Har like at all as a character. So Lo Har being that central of a driver of the action, I think just definitely keeps it a tier below some of the most kind of hallowed Thrones battles. But even in a Hard Home, when we talk about Hard Home, we talk about a character like Carsey, who we like met in that episode. You're right.

You know what I mean? And so there's ways to do it, but it's hard. Yeah. I did really, really like the dragon stuff, though. I did. Also, bitch fist is a sick name for a ship. I should give the triarchy that. This decision to have Raina on sheepsteeler just go right into battle we've already talked about.

We've provided our feedback. It's too late. Should have done some more training. Didn't happen. It's tough. I love that, you know, the triarchy who, we talked about the Sun Talk to Thrones, but have faced dragons before, thanks Damon, right? Thanks, thanks Lainor.

Correct. In the stepstones, so they do come a little bit more prepared. The sailors of the triarchy, this is from Fire and Blood, had faced dragons before, whilst warring against Prince Damon and the Stepstones. No man could fault their courage. They were prepared to meet Dragon Flame with such weapons as they had. Then it builds toward, it is one thing to face a dragon, another to face five, which is a great like dun, dun, dun, dun, moment in fire and blood.

But I really liked that we got that first grapnel hitting Vermax in like the harness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think it does just enough of important work. Rain on sheepstealer, we've got a lot of notes, right? The impact of that is undeniable. It fits a theme that we'll talk about in a second. I think that seeing this tells us it was a rap for Jason Vermax anyway. Jayce was not prepared for this battle.

It's possible he wouldn't have flown that low, too cocky. It's possible that he wouldn't have flown that low. I mean, that's a whole thing. You know, again, Fire and Blood is a very brief text, so you don't, it's not like there's pages and pages of pages of this battle. But the thing about Jase is that he flew too low. Yeah, I want to read it?

All seemed lost. All was lost. Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell. Some claim to crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way that Maraxis met her end long ago in Dorn. Another account tells us that a sailor in the crow's nest of Amirish galley cast a grapnal as Vermax was swooping through the fleet.

One of its prongs found purchased between two scales and was driven deep by the dragon's own considerable speed. The sailor had coiled his end of the chain about the mast and the weight of the ship and the power of Vermax's wings tore a long, jagged gash in the dragon's belly. The dragon's shriek of rage was heard as far as Spice Town, even through the clangor of battle. His flight jerked to a violent end. Vermax went down, smoking and screaming, clawing at the water. Survivor said he struggled to rise only to crash headlong into a burning galley. Wood splintered. The mask came tumbling down and the dragon thrashing became entangled in the rigging. When the ship

healed over and sank, Vermax sank with her. It is said that Jehear, sorry, do that again. It is said that Deceris Valerian leapt free and clung to a piece of smoking record. for a few heartbeats until some crossbowmen in the nearest mirish ship began loosing quarrels at him. The prince was struck once and then again. More and more Mirman brought crossbows to bear. Finally, one quarrel took him through the neck and Jace was swallowed by the sea. We have an important visual here, a visual comp, visual reference. It's like the exact same face.

And you told us on Talk to Thrones and you had texted me this before, you could hear Rob. as you were watching this. Moodah. Oh my God, it is sad. The Vermack stuff is so sad to me. He was just... Oh my God. He deserved better.

He deserved better. But this idea that like Jace flew too low. But like if he got hit once, isn't it possible he would have not flown that low again? Were he not veering at the last minute from Sheep Steeler simply because he recognized Raina? And went down that low again because he was trying to... Vermax to Baylor's defense to Moon Dancers' defense. So yes, I mean, they all are culpable. Everybody's got

some reflecting to do except for Jace because he's dead. No, not Bayla did great. Bailey did Belmont dancer. Timeless as always. The fact that the grapp, like the hook gets in the scale and then your own strength, like your might, the source of your power,

that you are a dragon or you have a dragon, you can fly, is the force that pulls them down? Unstrapped in, which is something that we talk a lot in terms of like who's strapped in and who's not on their dragon. Saddled and strapped in. So it's possible that if he had not, if he had been unstrapped sooner, could he have like cleared the corpse and swam away fast enough that, you know, they wouldn't have been like, hey, that's Prince. Just Sarah's. I mean, maybe it could have gotten away. Maybe instead he's just doing this really impressive, like the big swan dive and just gets an arrow through the neck midair.

Like, mu-de. Could have happened that way. Our listener Macy wrote a letter to say, Did either of you notice how the season opener always end with someone losing their air? Season 1, Vesaris losing Baylon, season two with Aegon losing Jaharis, and season three with Renera losing Jace. There you go, it was the right decision not to end season two with Gullet. It's a classic season opener.

It all happened the way it was meant to all for a reason. We'll miss Jace, you know. This is the heir to the Iron Throne. So this is a big deal. And air. To the Iron Throne. The air. You know, there are others, but the air to the iron throne.

It's a big deal. We saw the reaction to Luke's death. Welcome to the stage, Jof. I know, Jop, you're up. You're up. We know we set you on vacation, but you're up. I, from the Raina sheepstealer perspective, we talked about the Sun Talk to Thorns.

I opened with it as my favorite thing about the episode, but like just to hit it quickly. Oh, yeah. Since minute won, you know, the opening scene of the show is the great counsel, right, to Harris. And we get the voiceover from Renair, you know, the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. This has been the harbinger and the warning the whole time.

And the series premiere, the first episode of season one, features that moment with Vassaris, when he is choosing Renera. They're in front of Belaerian's skull, right? Surrounded by the candles. And he says to her, the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. There are power mentioned never of trifle with, one that brought Valeria to doom. If we don't mind our histories, it will do the same to us. We saw that at the end of season one. Was ARAx listening to Luke? No. Was Vagar listening to Aymand? No. And Vagar ate

Luke and ARAx. As a result, and Amid was like, no! I was like, I meant to do that. Fire and Blood quote that I've read a thousand times, but we'll read a thousand more, who can know the mind of such a beast? This idea that the Targaryens have, the hubris, the insanity of saying. Yeah. And I'm a magical creature's obsessive. So on the one hand, I love this bond. I think the bond between a dragon and its rider is like an incredibly rich and meaningful

thing. That's different from saying, you're going to listen to me and do, like another fire blood quote that we love is like a dragon is not a horse. Not a horse. Not a horse and not a horse. Dragons are not horses. They're incredible. A horse.

A horse thing is going to be a lasting bit. I can already tell, and it's welcome. Are you sure? Yes. Oh, I'm sure. My memory is so bad that I probably will not remember this next week. We're going to be back to doing Talk to Thrones in a couple days. And Chris is going to be like, what the fuck are you guys talking about?

And we're going to have to remember to save it for the deep dive. And then next Tuesday, we'll bring it back. This is just perfect. You know, the characters who keep making these mistakes, it's here for a reason. And the fallout of this war when we end the episode, it's just decimation and destruction everywhere. Right? Uncle versus nephew, sister versus sister. That's my sister.

Incredible moment. Pretty stupid. I liked what you said on Talk of Thorns. It was like, is that there to just like actually remind people because it's been two years since the show has been on? That's my sister, Bela. Oh, man. Here's the family tree. The battle in the gullet raged into the night north and south of Dragonstone and remains amongst the bloodiest sea battles in all of history.

A question Chris asked on Talk to Thorns was like, who's the, like, who's the, like, Who won? Who's the victor? We didn't want to read this quote because we didn't want to... You can still skip ahead, I think, even though you're going to read... You skip ahead 10 seconds. I'm going to redact the character name. It is written that when redacted was congratulated on his victory, his or her victory, is their victory. Redacted said, if this be victory, I pray, I never win another. Like, this is a... That's a point. This is a...

Disaster. Peerick victory in every sense. That's right. Who saw Raina? And will it matter? What the answer to that question is because whether anybody other than Jace who was dead actually was able to identify that's Raina what everybody saw. Sheep Stealing. Another dragon came in and was fighting our dragons and burning everyone, including.

A distinctive dragon with a clear underbite. Needs some gentle tension. I understand that Chris Ryan's like not all dragons, all the dragons look the same or whatever. Sheepstealer is easy to mark. Pretty. Yeah, it's tough. I would say, who are. like the most, it's like,

Caraxi's number one, the bloodworm. Bloodworm. Tesarian, blue queen. I mean, vagar based on just kind of sheer size. Vagar. Yeah. Sheepstealer. I would put sheepstealer up there.

And then maybe. Sunfire, the gold and the most beautiful dragon in the realm. Sunfire depends how before the sun is shining. If you can see the gold glinting off the, because sometimes people think it's Cyrax. Because Syrac has like the, sort of goldy coloring. Wouldn't it feel like shit if you were all.

also a golden dragon and no one talked about you that way. There's Syrac and there's Sunfire. The most beautiful dragon and all the around. The sheer and the glimmer and the pink membranes. Like, what about me? Christ, I'm also blonde. Anything else before we get to the book spoilers? I think we did it.

Book spoiler section. Okay, you were warned via fancy graphic and spooky sounds. Once again, if you do not want to hear about things that happen in fire and blood that have not yet happened in the show, is where you leave us. The horn of Helms Deep did sound. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, love it. All right, we have a few things that we want to quickly hit. Renira. How do you think this is going to go over with Reneira? Not great. You want to read that quote? Broken by the loss of one son, Renira Targaryen seemed to find new strengths after the loss of a second. Jace's death hardened her, burning away

her fears, leaving only her anger and her hatred, still possessed of more dragons than her half-brother. her grace now resolved to use them no matter the cost. She would rain down fire and death upon Agon and all those who supported him, she told the Black Council and either tear him from the Iron Throne or die in the attempt. So Reneer is like, it's go time. She's like, kill the queen, kill the mom. Mom's dead. It's King Reneira time.

Nettles and Rana. Okay, this is like so fascinating. Okay, so here's the deal. So like Raina, so if Bela or anyone on the ship is like, hey, Jace died because there was this giant dragon with an underbite here. Right. With a rider that we didn't recognize. So a new, a new bombshell is entered the villa, right? Yeah.

Someone has a dragon. Someone has a dragon. Yeah. She stiller didn't come alone. We got to filter this in the dragon mouth. Who is this dragon rider? We don't know. Right.

The dragon was burning both ships, but sort of seemed to be attacking us. So does Team Green now have a new dragon and a new dragon writer? Can they link Raina to Sheep Steeler? Because if they can, Reneera, so canonically, Renera hates nettles. For like, your fucking my husband. And I don't think they're going to do that. I hope not.

I mean, they could. Because the book is also like, this could be Damon's daughter or it could be his lover or why not both. Right. And it is one of those, they're in their. bedchamber a lot and like people are whispering but who knows who knows truth behind that but ranaura hates her and rinera hates her in a way that like is very unflattering to rinera no matter what if reneer is like this young woman should die it's gonna be a slightly tough sell but this woman should die because i'm jealous that damon is fucking her right versus you were

supposed to protect my two young sons and you abandoned them and then you went and kind of and then jace died helped kill accidentally sure but like kill the heir to the throne that's not great. I think that's a really clever, tidy way to sort of like tie this Reneira Nettles Vendetta, which drives a wedge between Damon and Reneer. I guess the question I have is like, what's the wedge? Because Damon does not have a relationship with Rana. I know.

So like, is he going to defend Rana against Rinaa if she finds out or, you know. What's interesting is that's like harder work for the show to do now because Damon hasn't given a shit. So does some sort of like paternal base instinct? It's the end of Marty Supreme. He's like, oh. It was always about being a dad. Big a dad is important. It was always about being a dad.

And here are some custom merch. Yeah. I did like those jackets more than I like the movie, got to say. Yeah. I think subbing the source of the wrath for the dead kids is the origin is pretty interesting. There are a couple like, because that's the biggest thing. There are a couple other aspects of this. like, okay, so Nettles and Sheepstealer in the text, they kind of just vanished to the

mountain of the moon. Like, well, that's where Raina claimed sheepstealer. Like, okay, that all makes sense. We can see how that part of the Nettles story is going to probably apply here. It's not just that Nettles isn't Sheep Steeler's writer. It's that Raina isn't going to get her book dragon. I am probably one of, like, I doubt too many people care about this, but maybe they do So I am sad about this, I'll tell you why.

Was mourning? So in the book, Raina, because remember those other eggs went up to the veil, right? I do remember. Folks are like, I don't remember the show was on two years ago. The other eggs went up to the veil. So Raina has an egg who is born eventually, one of the eggs hatches, her dragon, mourning is born. Now, was that dragon if they had stuck with that, if they had done nettles on sheepstiller and had mourning be born to Raina, would that dragon have played any role in the dance of the dragons? No.

It's a little baby hatchling. However, when morning is born, it's like the greens are like fuck because they have no dragons at that point. So then it's like it kind of feels like to them like a sign that the team black is more worthy and that the realm is going to think that. There are other ways to do that, but I just think. I mean, yeah, because there's like, you know, the little blonde babies or whatever, you know. Like, I just think that... But they can't not kill... They have to kill Storm Cloud.

Egg on the 3rd can't have a dragon. Right? Mallory, I don't think they give a shit about Egg on the 3rd and Storm Cloud. I don't know if we'll ever hear about them again. What? I think... Reneer dies. And that's the end.

And that's the end. No. I don't think they're doing... You don't think the kids are coming back? No, I don't. What? I don't. What?

I think Renira dies and that's the end of the show. But the... But you don't think they're going to be like an egg on the third is now king? Maybe, like, far off. This is why I think Thailand might be dead. Thailand might be dead. I think the show ends when Reneira dies. I feel like it's...

Or like when egg on it. You know what I mean? I feel like it's possible. I certainly think it's possible that, like, basically, the Reneira stuff is, like, the penultimate episode. They couldn't even pull a Danny and have it be, like, inside of the finale. But there's got to be, like, at a minimum, like, a... Hoda.

Does it? Yeah, because I need Craig and Stark back. God damn it. It starts with Reneira. Yeah. On Syrax. That's how we start. Yeah.

I think it ends with Reneer dying. I mean, if they liked us, they will show Agon Dying, too. But, like, I think it ends with Reneer dying and Allison being there to see it. Instead of her kid, it's Allison watching Reneer die. Don't you think that that's what this show is about? This show is about Allison watching Rineer die. Is it not? I don't know.

I have no insider information on this. But like we've got one more season after this. Yeah. I really think we're just, you know, Damon's going to die mid-season. Yeah, I mean, that could even be the beginning of season four, potentially. I don't. They want to keep them around as long as possible.

Maybe it's episode three. Yeah. Of season four. I mean, I think Allison's watching Eggon have Sunfire Eat Renera would be pretty compelling television based on the show that we've watched. I am having, I think, a harder time wrapping my mind around them not getting to the other stuff at all. Like, how are we going to resolve, like, Laris? And, like, I mean, they have to kill Egon.

They have to at least do that. And then doesn't there have to be some of the fallout with the other, like, because we've also invested time in those characters, right? We don't want to see Laris's head on a spike at the end? I mean, I know you don't want you to live forever. I guess, like, the fact that they are telling all these other Targaryian tales, too. On the one hand, you could say they could keep, they could wait, right? But on the other hand, like, I don't know, Egon, I, because I feel like while Reneyra...

I do not think they plan to do a House of the Dragon, Eagon the Third. No, I don't think so either. But I think establishing kind of this simultaneous, like, Reneira died, but, like, her heir became king feels, like, important. And then also the fact that that kid grows up to be. you know what I'll get you? terrified of dragons, the dragon bane? They're not doing dragon bane. Like, they didn't, they're not doing it.

What about 10 minutes at the end? No? I could maybe give you a title card at the end. Okay. I need at least that. Renira's son, egg on the third takes the throne. I need at least that. Some of the white font of the blacks,

I need at least that. God damn it. Okay, fair. However many, whatever the DeNaris title card that opened it, right? And then we can close with Egg on the third. Okay. I need at least that.

But yeah, I need at least that. Between now and then, Amid will be finding Harrenhol empty except he's going to kill Sir Simon. And Alice is going to be there. So this is what you were alluding to with. We understand why they're doing this. They're setting up another love affair with an older woman. I know, but what's so funny is, like,

I do not think that Gil Rankin and Eamette will look that much, like, apart in age. I mean, this is also like Olivia Cook. They look like they're at the same age. They always have. Olivia Cook gave a great interview recently where she was just like, like, fuck Hollywood, honestly. She was like, what the fuck is this?

I listened to Cat Rohn and say, what if Alice and Eamon hook up, but Alice is glamored and Amon sees her as Allison? Does Amon know it's Alice and this is their little roleplay or does he truly think Allison came to him? Interesting. That's a fun theory. Yeah. Ooh.

Olivia Cook, you want to do more scenes where you make out with your son? We got you. Oh, I like that. That's a great one. I mean, I do think no matter what Alice is just going to be like fucking with Amon's mind. I hope so. You know. I look forward to it.

It's great. Fucking with some other stuff too. Yeah. Roddy the Ruin. Okay. Butchers Ball and Tumbledon. He, obviously, they're going to change some stuff because, as you've noted, the economy of character, like, some of the characters who are involved in Butchers Ball to Kristen death just, like, aren't here. Right.

Do you think Roddy's just going to be the one who kills him? But I like those other characters so much. I know. We got to get Pate in here. Yeah. I know. I know. I hope that still happens. But like, is it gonna?

Probably not. Probably not. Probably Roddy the Rune gets to do all the cool shit. I mean, he's going to get to take out Ormond at Tumbledon. Pretty sick. That's awesome. Speaking of awesome. Do you think they'll let Damon kill Kristen Cole?

That would be great. But no, because Damon has to leave, though. He could go back. He's on a dragon. He's forever going places. He is. He loves to travel. Yeah.

This is the student of the world, you know? I definitely think we're getting the, we have to do the Butcher's Ball because Chris and Cole has to have like, not the big epic death he wants, but like. It's got to be fucking sad, yeah. A death. No songs about how brave you died. And then we have to have Templeton, obviously. For sure. So the fact, because we, this was like something we were really, we were debating as we broke down the trailers and have been talking about this since the end of season two.

Like how much room do they have for the battles? Will Butcher's ball be like a quick thing or will my new feeling? is if we're not getting a full fish feed, doesn't seem like we're getting honey wine because they're like the high towers are in the mandar? I feel like they yada yada the honey wine.

Butchers ball, I feel like it's going to be bigger. Yeah, Butchers ball and then Tumbledon and then Tumbledon. That seems right to me. And obviously the taking of Kings Landing before either of them. Tumbledon.

Taking up Kings Landing should be. On the tomorrow. Yeah. On the tomorrow? On the today. Tumbledon set up so far to betrayer setup is, I think,

good. Yeah. They are doing a good job with this. So Oof and Hugh, yeah, really good. For different reasons. Yes. he's got the mounting resentment.

No castle? What the fuck? Right? There's that. There's like an actual reason for him to be like, do I need to like stay on your side? But also just the fact that he's like he's rash. He does what's right for him. He's not really a true believer.

All of that very clear. Adam quite loyal. Adam being simultaneously in the same cluster with them, thus like setting up the everyone else is going to say, well, surely you're a traitor too. Right. Lumping him in. But we see clearly he's not a traitor. It's going to be so hard for me to hang with Ranira. when she turns on Adam.

It's going to be that's awful. But we have a lot of it's going to be hard to hang with Reneera stuff coming. So true. Boy. So true, bestie. I can't wait for Bull John Roxton to take Orphan Maker. Go up to Hugh Hammer and say, Lord Hammer, my condolences, for what? You died in battle?

I mean, slip on his end trails. If you were going to slip on somebody else's something and then yourself die, do you want it to be an entrail? Or do you want it to be something else? I simply would not. Legitimizing the bastards. A life, perhaps, but not a name. This is something that Alan says to Corlis,

setting up book canon, which is Corliss's pursuit of legitimizing them. They become Adam Valerian and Alan Valerian from of whole, right? So they're setting up this as something that will happen, I guess, soon. Something Corliss dearly wants. Something Corliss wants. Also, the fall of house Valerian here, right?

Like his home burns, but, like, his house is just, like, in shambles. Yeah. There's a reason you haven't heard of House Hilarian in the future. It's tough. Also, one of our listeners emailed and they were like, I was pretty sure Jace is going to die because I was pretty sure wasn't King Jace Valerian because it's the fucking Targaryens. So. Yeah. So that was part of their agreement, right?

That, like, they could be called Valerian until they took the throne. Until they're targeting. Because Saris was like, I know you're not suggesting that we cheat the royal house name. And just because my daughter's a woman. And Corliss is like the handshake. And he was like, his fingers were falling off. Good stuff. Mentioned Honey One.

Yeah. Bees erasure. How you feeling? How you doing? I'm pissed. This is when it's a real bummer that we can't put stuff from the spoiler section on social. But maybe we can in this case. Well, I think...

Quote card at a minimum. I think it's once it's very clear, once it's so clear that we're not doing honey wine. Yeah, you take it to Maine. I'm taking it to. Yeah. The Beesbury Eurasia. Outrageous.

I mean, we're still mad about what little Beesbury we got in Nine of the Seven Kingdoms. Crazy. And nearly a perfect show. Everyone's mad about that. There are dozens of us. In the street. Imagine if we got to see another Beesbury in a bee coffin. Come on now.

That bee coffin was sick. Anyway. Anything else? the book, spoiler front. Yeah. Okay. So we did get a couple of emails about the erasure of Agon and Viseris. So these,

Hail, Hail, the Conqueror Babes that are supposed to be on the cog, the gay abandoned, right? And they're not involved, right? So that changes Jase's motivation, which I talked about on Talk to Theron. So I feel fine about talking that in the non-spoiler section, right? Yeah. In the book, Jace has, I would consider it, better motivation, you know, to go out and rescue his brother, right?

Like, then, then mom, you can't go. Right. It's my destiny. I got to go. Right. Because Egon flies back. Clinging. Clinging to tiny little storm cloud first and last time riding a dragon.

Before he watches Sunfire eat his mom. Yeah. This traumatized. It's text canon stunk like piss. Poor little kid. How would Ormond respond? Not well. And that's, yeah.

And so then they got to go try to. Jay's was like, well, I got to go get Pharis. Right? who is not found for quite some time until he comes back. I mean, these boys have a vibrant stretch of story ahead of them. And as, you know, Ryan Condal was like, listen, you guys bitch when we did a time jump in season one. Did you want us to do another time jump to age up those kids enough that we could like...

No, I wanted you to make the kids to proper age in the first place. Well, not when they, like, show them, it's like seven and nine, right? Yeah, but the... Yeah, but they're like babies. They're so small. Well, like, they're babies when Vassarra's still alive and you. You wanted seven or nine years to pass after Viseras's death? They should have been the right age in the first place.

Well, they should have been seven or nine when Vassaris died, that's what you're saying. But then he couldn't be like, here's my baby. And him being like... Oh, that is a name for a king. I do love that. You're right. Maybe it was all worth it. All right.

Our listener, Tom said, this event of Agonne fleeing on Storm Cloud and Vassaris getting taken to Esso serves partially to establish Jace's motivation to join the battle. but more importantly to set off Egan the Younger's character development and is guilt in not rescuing his brother as well as the first of many traumas. If most theories are correct and the series is going to end at Reneer's death or at Egan the 2nd's death right after, then it makes sense to exclude any significant character building of Egon the 3rd in favor of characters we will see far more of. Disagree. I agree. And then our listener Hila is the one who's like, if we're not developing Egg on the 3rd as a character, if those blonde babies just go to SOS and never come back.

Then Swapy and Allison for Aigon as the person watching Reneira die in horror is much more fitting with the show that we've been presented with. Again, I don't know where they're going to end the show, but it really seems like they're not interested in continuing beyond the story of Reneira. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Is Thailand Lannister dead? What do you think? Yeah. I think yes. You think no. You think he has a lot to do, but does he have a lot to do that is not that is. He does have a lot to do. He's got to like lose his eyeballs and like all sorts of other stuff. And he's got to be around at the end for I guess the stuff that are not going to put in the show.

for the next generation stuff, which I don't think they're going to do. I understand. Like, when you're on Talk to Runs, you're like, I think he's alive. I'm like, I understand why you think that because he does have a lot to do in the book, but I just kind of think they might be done with him.

And if they're not, like, let's say they're not. Yeah. And like, book readers are debating. Is Tylen Lannister dead? They're not sure, right? We know Corliss is not dead. Right. But is Thailand who went in full armor into the drink?

Is he dead? Yeah. If he's not. Yeah. he's, they're going to have to show us that quickly. Right. If there's like a dramatic return of Thailand Lannister in like episode eight of this season, viewers are going to be like, who?

It would almost be like the 900 other times they had a character managed for almost an entire season and then reminded us of who they were. I'll just say, show canon. Yeah. That Lannisters in particular could fall into bodies of water in their armor. Yeah, Jamie. And be fine. Even if they have a heavy gold hands.

Mysteriously. Fine. It was a very shallow sort of part of it. It was deeper than it should have been. I'll say that. Maybe this is just motivated by the fact that I want to see Joanna Lannister just like really take center stage as the most important Lannister on the show. Love a Joanna.

Yeah. Love a Joanna. Do you think we'll get the red cracking Lannisport? Probably not. Probably not. What if we got that, but don't get egg on the third? Maybe. I mean, I would not be surprised if they gave us some Ironborn and stuff in season four.

I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, that'd be great. All right, we did it. Always be pillaging and always be potting. Can I tell you something? Please. I do not know how long this podcast is. I had a blast.

I had a great time. I had the best time. I think we came in under three hours. Wow. But like maybe by like, it might be like 257. But that counts. It doesn't. I'm counting it.

That counts. Carlos is going to come in and be like, you don't remember what time this started. That's wrong. But I think it's right. Speaking of Carlos, let's say our thank yous. Oh, what a squad today. My goodness. We have with us.

Chiroboga, our wonderful producer, legend always. Scott Lee, Jamie and Jacob are both here today. An embarrassment of fucking riches. I know. The control room is busy, buzzing. It's a treat when Jamie's here. It's a treat when Jacob's here. And they're both here?

Oh, my gosh. Yet someone you know Thrones is back. Arjunna Ramca Powell, ill and not with us, but with us in spirit. The Jason and Thailand Lannister of the... No, I'm just kidding. How dare you? And join me a dinner on. Now and always.

Join us. Sunday night the minute. Episode two ends. I don't know how long episode two is. But whatever time that is. This is a long boy. Yeah, this was 66 minutes. The third longest episode in House of Dragon history.

Is that true? That is true. Sheesh! I suspect we'll get some other meaty ones, some long ones as we go. Garthi. Two seasons left eight episodes. Not enough time. Just my take.

But also, I expect four episodes on Egg on the Thirons. So that's part of why that's my take. Join us Sunday night for Talk to Thrones with CR on episode two and then join us next Monday. for LaSatte episode four already? Yeah, episode four, sheesh. My goodness. Exciting. Maybe we'll check in on Supergirl.

We haven't decided yet. We haven't seen the movie yet, so we'll see. We'll see what's possible scheduling-wise. And then we'll be back Tuesday evening for our deep dive into episode two. Until then, remember, a horse. Not a horse. Orphan Maker! Bye!