House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the third episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, “Rhaenyra Triumphant.” They break down everything from Ormund’s scheming with a fake Daeron to Rhaenyra’s rough first day at the office.(00:00) Intro(05:53) Opening Snapshot(25:21) Daemon forces Ormund’s “surrender” [wink wink](38:04) Opening credits update(41:57) Rhaenyra begins a normal one(55:17) Rhaenyra meets “Daeron”(01:17:13) Small Councils and empty coffers(01:31:28) Rhaenyra recants her pledge to Alicent(01:41:56) Mysaria’s to-do list grows(01:47:15) A frosty meeting with the High Septon(01:54:05) Corlys makes his ask(01:57:47) Seeking some midnight cuddles(01:59:27) A moon blood interruption(02:04:42) Hearing petitions(02:08:14) The Small Council continues to bicker(02:1034) Knighting the seeds(02:12:51) Alicent guides—and warns—Rhaenyra(02:15:42) A ratty dinner is served(02:21:08) Daemon shares his simple platform: We’re gods(02:28:14) Corlys and Rhaenyra argue(02:34:25) The Faeron and Tumbleton reveals(02:41:19) Book spoilers!Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of our Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, we are awash in dilemmas and deficiencies. It's Joanna Robinson. Who else is joining us today? Preston, Rat. Yeah.

Big moment for Preston. It's a big episode. It's a big rat episode. So we thought we'd give Preston a place of prominence on the table here. Yeah, guys, where's the lower third to identify Preston and share his social? handles. We are here, of course, to dive deep. Our family deep. Deep, deep, deep, deep into episode three of season three of House of the Dragon, Renera Triumphant. We will get right to it after this. All right, as usual, that was a lie.

We're going to do programming reminders first before we get into anything. Here's what's coming. Next week is a busy week. I believe that we are publishing five podcasts next week on this feed. Is that true? We will have... The ice just went so wide. Relatively quiet week this week with just the old two. But coming up, Talk the Thrones on Sunday night. The very special guest. That's right. Special guest.

CR for the first time ever won't be on Talk to Thrones. He's in Canada. I'm not totally ruling out that he's like, guys, I've learned how quickly dragons move. I'm flying and I'm back. Okay. We'll see. On Dragon Wing from Toronto. Okay.

Maybe it'll just be a text or two to read. Who can say? We'll have a special guest on Sunday for Talk to Thrones, and then we will, of course, be back with our deep dive on episode four on Tuesday evening next week. In addition to that, Lestat. We did not get to Lestat this week. We had an unavoidable scheduling conflict that there was nothing to be done. There was nothing to be done.

But we will be back for episode, a quick catch-up on episode five and then episode six, which will be the newest episode. We'll be hitting them both inside of one pod. We meet Akasha in episode five. We will talk about it. Can't wait. Can't wait. Only a couple episodes left of that, which is very sad.

Sad. Sad. And then it's a big Nolan week for us because we have one episode left in our Nolan Revisited project, Oppenheimer. And then, of course, next week is the release of a little movie you might have heard of called The Odyssey. Which we've seen. Which we've seen. And guess what?

It was fucking great. It was really good. It was so good. So if all goes according to plan, we have a special guest for Talk to Thrones and a special guest for Oppenheimer. And then the special guest is us for The Odyssey and also Homer. Homer always welcome on this podcast. Always. Appy and Adi Week.

You can't make that fetch happen. You keep trying in our texts. We'll see. You're very influential. Maybe you can. I had forgotten. I will say how often they actually call him Opie in the movie. And so I think I'm halfway there.

Okay. I am just being the oddie part. You think you can make Audi happen? It's only been like a few years since that story's been out of the ether. And I don't know. It's still new. He's due for a rebrand. That's new. How can everyone follow along, Joe? Oh, wow. Great question. If you want to see our

shining slightly sunburnt faces. Slightly. Slightly. I look like I spent the entire weekend exposing my skin to Dragon Flame, aka the sun here in Los Angeles. And I'm at that fun stage where I'm still freshly sunburnt, but also appealing. And all people, you can't see a single peel. All people can see is their youthful glow. And then Preston, if you want to see Preston's place of prominence on the table this week. You can watch us on YouTube. That's right. You can watch us on Spotify.

That's right. You can follow us on our relatively recent handles. Newish. At House of R. Not Outhouse of R. No. But someone did create that handle. We knew you would, bad babies.

I was like, should we do it? And then I was like, no one will actually do it. But then they did it. Carlos really delighted in texting us about that. So Instagram, TikTok, email us, Hobbits and Dragons. to Gmail.com. We got a lot of great emails for this. It's a spectacular episode of House of the Dragon.

Plus a few critiques from folks as well. We want to get into all of that. So that is how folks can follow along. And just follow the pod. What about that? Yeah. That's a thought. Do it. Subscribe. A great idea. Smash that like and subscribe button. Why not? Do it.

Spoiler warning. For today's episode, obviously anything that happened in the third episode of Season 3 of House of the Dragon, fair game today. If it's ever happened in House of the Dragon, fair game today. If it's ever happened in another episode of Game of Thrones television, either in Game of Thrones. or a Night of the Seven Kingdoms, it could come up today. In terms of the text,

you know what, I would say honestly a little lighter than usual maybe in the main section of the pod in terms of passages. Way lighter than usual. We are well off. We're on the map, but off the map of... Do you want to break out the map? I don't. So it is right here.

I think I need to redraw it for next time. But yeah, this is not really a doubt. This is like one of our favorite episodes of House the Dragon, and it is, I think, extremely faithful to Georgia R. Martin's themes and also has barely anything to do with anything that happens in fire and blood. So fewer passages as we go than maybe on a usual deep dive. But if you're wondering about any books, spoilers, fear not. Those will all be sectioned off at the end in a separate zippy book spoiler section. We'll warn you right before we start that section. You'll get a helpful, terrifying sound effect. Implications abound. This might not be sort of a sort of a...

faithful direct line-to-line adaptation of the book, but the seeds are being sewn. The seeds are being sewn. Yes. There is time of plenty in the coming days to discuss the royal tipple. But for now, it's time to pod. Let's get to the opening snapshot. Okay. Season 3, Episode 3, Renera Triumphin.

56 minutes. Mm-hmm. Still a full meaty hour. Very meaty episode. All conversations. This was a great, like, oh, shorter runtime. Oh, my God, my Google Doc is nine times the typical Google Doc. We always love when that happens. Joanna, we were one week off in our episode name title, guess. Me. That was my guess. Reneerre triumphant. One week off, but here it is. Delightful. Do you feel prepared to guess the rest of the episode titles for the remaining?

What is it? How many we have left? We have got five left this season and eight next season. Let's make it a bit on Talk the Thrones every week for us to guess and be wrong. We never know. Yeah, when she sat her shapely butt on the throne in episode two, I was like, here she is. Rainier a Triumphant. Because that's what the section of the book is called. But they saved it for here, which is much better because you're like, Reneer a triumphant. Is this one? Triumph looks like.

Triumphit. Great stuff. And we are back with the duo that brought us the second episode of the season, which we also adored. This is once again written by Sarah Hess and directed by Claire Kilner. They're both EPs. Claire has directed some of our favorite episodes. Sarah is also the co-head writer of the show. So the squad. The dynamic duo is back and you can feel it. I'm tremendously happy to see Sarah Hess's name on these two episodes because she gets a lot of grief from the cranky fandom for some reason. I don't know why a lot of it gets, well, I do know why. A lot of it gets sort of shuffled up on her. But, you know, I thought this episode was fantastic. Really fantastic. Wonderful. Tell me more. Give me your quick opening snapshot table setting. Takes in case anyone didn't already watch Talk the Thrones. I mean, what are you doing? Go watch. But also, let's not assume they have. Let's just tell them again.

Sure. Why does you love this episode of television? Why did you love this episode of House of the Dragon? Yeah. Wow. Great questions. Hey, thanks. Thanks so much for asking them. It's an honor and a privilege to throw that your way and hear what you have to say. Thank you. Yeah. I think, you know, as we talk about it, I think, you know, as we talk about, talked about on Talk of Thrones, the way in which this is an unusual, it's like just a swing. It feels like a swing from the show. And, you know, Game of Thrones definitely took narrative swings, but it didn't usually take like formal in terms of like the form of the thing,

swings other than I would say like winds of winter, that section of winds of winter, which you and I both really like. I think I would liken this most to that unusual stretch inside. of that episode of Game of Thrones. And so to open wide the possibilities of what they could do in the future, I saw a lot of book fans really excited that this felt like to them, like, what a POV chapter feels like in a song of ice and fire. And then as we discussed on Talk the Thrones, and as many people in the fandom have mentioned, this feels like the kind of treatment that DeNaris Targaryen deserved on Game of Thrones,

which is just sort of like a more thoughtful, slow roll examination of the toll that it can take to be a Targaryen at all, to be a woman trying to rule to be all kinds of things and just the reality of ruling and all these other pressures. So I just thought it was fantastic, like really, really good stuff. And as we've been talking about since, you know, the very first season, fire and blood is the story told. by a bunch of snide gossipy dudes about, you know, like a bunch of bros being like, so these, you know, bitch queens, et cetera. Yeah, the court of cunts. Yeah, you and me.

I'm going to keep going with that until you agree to put it on the merch. Yep. Because you've been very resistant so far. Yeah, bitch queens I will. Bitch fist, I would. But court of cunts is a no. Bitch fist, I feel like is really embedded into the DNA of the podcast. But it's just sort of like, okay.

You know, and as we talked about a lot in, in. our separate coverage of Thrones, or talked about some, you know, that was a show primarily written by and directed by men. And not to say they didn't do some tremendous storytelling work with a lot of their female characters, some of our favorite characters of all time. But the contributions from women in the writing staff and the directing staff were laughably low. And, you know, here we have two back-to-back episodes written and directed by women. And again, we got some listener feedback that not everyone loved every single choice that was made around sort of the gendered aspect of ruling. We can talk about all of that.

But I'm just really excited to have this team of creatives considering the length and breadth and depth of Reneer. Yeah. Same. With a performer like Emma Darcy at the wheel of all of it is fantastic. It really does feel like we're being treated to a performance for the ages. And I think Emma has been sensational since, you know, the first episode, episode six of season one. But this season is just astonishing. Just I think the story sort of put them as a performer in a tough spot in terms of showing us everything that they could do.

And here, it's just a, you know, a much deserved spotlight for an incredible performer. I was telling someone yesterday, I was like, I think I'm a adult. RC might be one of our best actors just like full stop. But I would like to see, I know they've done some theater, but I would be really eager to see sort of more of, I'm excited to see what they do sort of post-Rinera going forward. Same. Also an incredible showcase this episode for Matt Smith as usual, and I can't wait to see what he does on Quinn. I think we've been sharing a lot of texts about Quinn. That was the fastest I've ever guessed who they were doing. It was like one glimpse of an ear, and I was like, I know that ear.

Yeah. This is finally when I take the plunge, I think. Really? I think so. I've wanted to check it out for, I mean, they almost got me with Jamie, with Vecna. They almost got me with the heated rivalry boys. They've almost gotten me so many times. I had not seen Summer I turned pretty, so that was while I was intrigued by the just kind of phenomenon across the internet.

Connor and Team Jeremiah. Well, I feel like I know. Yeah, you have a head on your shoulders. Should we do, so for people who don't know, Quinn is audio erotica. That's right. Narrated most recently by famous men, Sean Hattacee of the Pitt, did one. You know, yes, they got Jamie Campbell-Bauer, Vecna himself, to do one. Have you listened to any yet?

I have not. Okay. Should we do the first one? Maybe, like, in when the schedule slows down. During a quiet time. I just had to panic the Kuma of the five episodes. Not to cover it. Just for the sheer pleasure.

I think we should definitely do like a Quinn episode. At least. Penciling in for next Valentine's Day. At least by next February. That's what I was going to say. Here's the scary thing. It's somehow July. And so next February will be upon us before we fucking know it.

And those podcasts are always a treat and a joy. So great. Carlos, if you want to just add that to the schedule right now, Quinn Audio Oronica for the next V-Day Quiki. It's always nice to get ahead on the planet. Yeah. I also just loved this episode. I thought was wonderful.

Quinn, call us. We're your target demo, I think. I like how, maybe in part because it is a person's name. I'm like treating Quinn a brand and company as one person. Quinn, call us. She'll be on the phone soon. I thought this episode was wonderful as well. I enjoyed, you know, it's always fun to hear.

We talked about this last episode. What were some of the King Kong and Kill Bill, like, inspo, so the creative team were citing. It was fun this time across the various, you know, making of House the Dragons built inside of the episode, et cetera, to hear things like, you know, West Wing, which I think you and Chris had both invoked on Talk to Thrones, but also something like Conclave, like a more recent film that I really enjoyed. I thought that was really interesting. Or as Charles put it on the big picture of the Catholic Voting movie?

I mean, it's an accurate description. It's an accurate description. I love that film Shotout Reef finds. One of the great loves of my life, as you know, as you know. I agree with everything you said. I thought this was wonderful. The writing was sensational. The performances were great. The focus and kind of tone and vibe. The way that the visual directing choices and treatment signaled certain things to us in key moments, but also like, you know, you called this out at the beginning of Talk to Thrones. And this was something I think we were all really struck by the sound design. The score is always great. But these moments where there's a heartbeat in Reneer's ear and the combination of the visual fog in haze coupled with that sense of like something pressing in on you.

And when is that stress? Something feeling overwhelming about your day? When is it doubt and uncertainty? the different like treatments and aspects from the craft perspective in this episode that signaled something to us about where the characters were really expert and just like again we talked about this on Talk to Thrones but I think it would feel weird to not say it on the deep dive as while where we have been talking about this George R. Martin quote for like five years of podcast together to get a real like made in the image of what was Aragorn's tax policy episode of

House of the Dragon where George as we love to mention in this Rolling Stone. an interview in 2014 kind of explained a little bit of the ethic behind the way that he thinks about not only ruling. Ruling is hard, right? That's a direct quote from that larger quote, ruling is hard. But the kind of thing he wants to focus on in his story, which is the level of detail, the burden, the kind of decision that rulers have to make. Even though, like you said earlier, it's an episode where maybe like we're not going to

have as many direct little things from fire and blood to pair. In some ways, it's like the truest form of adaptation because it's the adaptation of the spirit of the exercise. I really think it's just the most, like, and it's, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how the House the Dragon creative team is feeling with the reception of these episodes. But I've been thinking, it's been on my mind because, you know, George came out so strongly against them. And then there was all this sort of chatter about the previous season. For them to, amidst all of that, put their head down and make these episodes and for these episodes be, I think the last two, some of their finest work, you know, and I've heard really good things about four, you know. And so it's just like,

that's impressive. Don't give up. Just keep going. George R. Martin himself might call you trash. And you're like, guess what? Here's a diamond, George. We made something that is so dedicated to your fondest intellectual and emotional pursuits in terms of your creativity. We may do this. You're not going to like it, but we made it. And it's for you. and it's for your fans. And I just think... What if he loves it? What if he's talking about the little baby orcs in their cradles and also love in this episode?

Will he blog about it? Do you think if he does? I feel like they're probably like, don't blog about House of the Dragon. And that message came from, like, legal professionals. That's just my guess, but who the fuck knows? I feel like Franny Orsi and Casey Blois are just sort of like, is there a way we can just, like, get that blog, entire blog removed from the internet? Good old not a blog. I love when he rips off a football blog.

Yeah. Get some Jets or Giants takes in there. Back in the day when he was like just crunching Daniel Jones and Sam Darnold tape. What a time that was to be on the internet. My goodness. I really agree. Yeah. You've always been a big Danny Dimes tape cruncher.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. We got a couple questions on what we like to call the BBYs because we're Star Wars fans. But how long has this been going on? What was the question we got? How long since Viseris died? Well, we get the some months directly from high sept and balmen in this episode.

Right. So 129 AC is when Viseris dies. Yeah. And 130 AC is when Reneira takes the throne. Yeah. So some months. Some months. Jace died, would you say, like, a couple days ago?

Yes. And it was a couple days that Ulf and Hugh were like, we're going to wait. Yeah. And then we're going to piece out. Yeah. The amount of time that Olf and Hugh and Adam hung out, I love that you didn't implicate Adam, even though he was there. He was blameless. Olf and Hugh and Adam were hanging out near Harren Hall.

That's how many days has been since Jace died. Right. So something I think about in terms of what might be on Reneer's mind. That's right. Yeah. Fresh in the grief, but also missing gold. And people lining up with petitions for now the ruling queen. And what should we do about Darren and every advisor has a question?

and everyone in the hall has a comment about the candles. A lot to do. The to-do list is long. Do you think? Yeah. Anyone ever asked King Agon Targaryen about the candles or King Viseras Targaryen about the candles? Why are we asking the fucking queen about the candles, man? Well, it's a good and fair question.

However, I would offer as a follow-up, why does Reneera not have a... Why is Reneer not more prepared for this? Why are they all not more prepared? Oh, we, absolutely. We're not going to bring the counsel from Dragonstone because they suck and they do. No consideration for the fact that the prior regime might have taken the gold. No plan for the coffers being empty. No consideration for anything.

There's a lot to get through, but also there would have been more things to anticipate. As usual, I put a lot of this on the Saras for not properly preparing Renera for anything. Well, absolutely. I can't remember if I included in the outline today, but we got some emails from people who like sort of went back through and looking at like, what was Reneira doing when she was a cup bearer in the small cafe? meetings. And, like, what's true is that Reneira, young Reneera, young Reneer are, like, hot-blooded that she was, is she, like, wanted to be on her dragon and she wanted to be, like, doing and, like, fighting and, like, adventuring and, like, and, like, and the bowels of

a pleasure that don't. Fucking her uncle and fucking Kristen Cole and, like, you know, doing whatever she wanted. Drew the line at oranges and cinnamon, though. But, like, I do criticize Viseris. Of course. I love to criticize Vassaris for not preparing her enough. Yeah. But also, was she not, like, a very assiduous student?

at the same time in terms of like observing this sort of thing. But yeah, you know, and I will give Renier, you know, when Sir Luther's like, hey man, I'm a gold cloak, what am I doing as the head of your Queen's Guard? She's like, let's get Damon to like, she's like, let's delegate some work to some people. She's trying. Yes. But I just still cannot understand the audacity of people in the hallway being like, what do we do about the candles, Renira?

I was like, are you kidding me? The candle one coupled, like, I think immediately after that with, I mean, I think, I mean, you know, the greens and the arbor and the price of wine, it's tripled. It's like that for sure someone else can deal with. For sure. That said, difficult to have faith in limited set of counselors already. And more difficult still. And we're going to get into some of the details and maybe reads on the episode where you could say,

actually was this what was happening with Tessarian instead. I will say my one critique on the episode, and I think one that is shared by you and by a lot of people is potentially baffling dragon-centric decision-making from Damon and Team Black. I'm just like so happy to blame Damon for that, though. You cannot leave a dragon with the enemy. I'm so happy to blame Damon for his, like, because is entertaining his Matt Smith's like showboating performance. And again, this is like another sort of like Doctor Who, like, and then sort of like

performance from him where he's just showboating. Rats have come uncommon lodge, you know? Like, he's just having the best time with his theater that he fucking picked up the wrong kid and oops kind of forgot to take the dragon with them. That's tough. Maybe he remembered. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that.

But yeah, I mean, that's an undeniable oops. But it's one I can really see good old Dave and Targaryen making. Yes. And I do think that one of the throughlines of this series and interests of this series is not just the hubris that we talk about a lot, but also just mistakes. You know, Allison made a mistake because everybody names their kid egg on. The characters make mistakes. However, I think a dragon rider.

saying that dragon can stay there is beyond. Can we just, let's hit it. Let's just say it now. We've got a couple emails about this. I hadn't seen this theory, but you and I were so puzzled why a sooty dragon keeper showed up to share the news. And Chris was like, is Tumpleton a big dragonkeeper town? Like, completely reasonable question, I think.

Why is this dragonkeeper bringing the news of Tumbledon? Right. And so a theory that a couple of our listeners put forward, and I guess is going around, and if this is true, I would just say the episode should have made it clear. That like some dragon keepers were in the midst of taking Tessarian from the Hightower camp to Kings Landing. And then they were sort of beset and besieged by the Hightower men who Oops did not take the Rose Road home. But rather scooped up the Blue Queen herself and then took her inside the gates of Tumbledon. And that makes a lot of sense as to why that dragon keeper was like, first of all, you know, must.

And secondly, involved in the news at all whatsoever. But we really needed Damon on his way out of the camp be like, dragon keepers. Exactly. And there are multiple dragonkeepers around Tessarian. Yeah. When we're looking at Tessarian in the midst of the... They have their own dragonkeepers at the Hightower camp. So clearly, this could...

Like, another interpretation of why is this dragon keeper here and Sudi is the dragonkeepers were like, hey, you can't take a whole ass dragon inside of a town like that. Yes. You know? And they sort of like defected because they're like, this isn't how you treat a dragon. Which is supported by canon, when the dragon keepers at Dragonstone, when Renera executed the red sewing, we're like, we don't support this.

And we're not going to participate. Right. So that, to me, felt inside of the episode, based on the lack of any scene where Damon is, like, luxuriating in the delicious drama of being like, ah, a, one more thing we're going to be good. It's a half a sentence to say. And of course, we're going to be taking the dragon as well. but that didn't happen. So it just, it opens up a line of questioning.

Honestly, they could add it now. Add it now, and I'll pretend it was always there. Do an update Will Byers' birthday, like Netflix posts. In ADR, when the camera's not on him in a small council scene, just be like, oh, and the dragonkeepers are on their way with Tessar. Shirley Thailand died at the Gullin and also the dragonkeepers are on their way here with Tessaria. Don't worry about it. I think you solved it.

And no one will ever complain about anything again. No. Great. Get that Starbucks Cup out of there. And, um. Remember that? That was tough. That was bad.

Really bad. That was bad. That was a dark moment. It was a Starbucks cup, but it was a coffee cup. It was a coffee cup. Should we get to the deep dive? Let's do it. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update.

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Here we go Someone's already claiming this is our year Someone else said that last year too A round of Jameson ginger and lime arrives at the table Smooth enough for kickoff, smooth enough for extra time New friends pulling up a stool Debates about whether that was a handball

Cheers rising like a roar around the room. Because match days are about the shared moments. How did Jameson to your match day lineup? Jameson, it's what you bring. Please enjoy our products responsibly. God. Okay, we were sort of already starting to talk about this scene just now. So let's start with a cold open.

This is before the opening credits. It's before we spend the rest of the episode in Renera's point of view in this day in life, day plus-ish in the life doing the job. stretch for Rainira. Here's another thing I'll say. Yeah. If a big note for Rainier in this episode is delegate, which it is. Yes. Sure.

Did she not delegate this task to Damon? Did he not fuck it up? Nine ways from Sunday. Like, you know? That's what I'm saying. It's hard to trust your counselors if they're doing shit like this. I mean, you don't have that many you can trust in the first place. Yeah.

She's not going to call Keltygar back in now to ask for more help. She doesn't ever want to see that guy again. I am actually curious if we're like completely done with him. That would be an interesting choice. Joe, this is a, this cold open, this scene that we get is a change. This is new canon to have Damon on Caraxies with Ulf and Hugh, Silver Wing, and Vermethore just go fly over to demand surrender from the High Tower Army. I had, if I'm being completely honest, when I watched this for the first time, I was like,

I kind of can't help sometimes have this just like on reflex response. I'm like, what the fuck is happening here? then I really loved it because it makes sense first of all just logically you have dragons I was thinking of Chris's question about like can the dragons move too quick

it's like you can move pretty quickly on a dragon why would you just not go tell this army that they had to bend the knee and do it with force and might of three dragons and three dragon riders right? Big dragins yeah so I was like okay this is actually like this makes

sense as a thing that they would do the reason I really loved it is because we got to watch Matt Smith and James Norton in a scene together and it was like But just absolute fucking euphoric bliss. Did you see, you know, the HBO social media account is just having the time of their life. Thriving.

Cranking out the memes. Thriven. And like, it's so close. Like, they did this ahead of time. They did this on set. They were ready. So they did the Love Island, like a new bombshell has entered the villa for James Norton. When they're like a new villain has entered like Game of Thrones or whatever.

And it's just like him on set in the Tumbledin like whatever. It's just sort of like sauntering in. But yeah, I'm just, I'm thrilled. And we talked about this on Talk of Thrones. but I'm just, like, thrilled at this use of Wormon Hightower. Is this like, you know, you think of some of the sort of like later season Thrones villains, like a new villain is here. And what does it mean when we're up against a Ramsey Bolton or, you know, what is the flavor

a villain? And this villain is smart. Yes. So prepared. Ready. A head. Scary. It does not get a shit about vows.

I mean, they make you swear and swear. So many vows. It's true, but this one was pretty clean, like, clear cut. Yeah. And he's like, whatever. Sure, I'll bend the knee. It tells us so much about him. Yeah.

Frankly, like, some of it is just the fact that the entire army is behind him. And he is not concerned for a second about any of them being confused or unhappy thinking they were about to get to go home. And then it's Tumbled in war. He has that army in his power. Right? So that's notable. But, yeah, the fact that he did not hesitate for an instant to swear a vow that he knew at this point, definitively. He had no intention to keeping. He has fake Darren ready. He has the kid.

And the look on his face when Damon asked for Darren where he's like, delighted to give a him to him. So proud of himself for having the anticipated, which makes sense. Like you take hostages in Thrones, but he knew. He was ready. So like, how long, I mean, we're just guessing at this point, but how long in advance do you think he had this plan? Was it from the moment he got Allison's scroll? Or was it from, he got a Raven? saying like, oi, King's Landing fell. You know what do you mean? Like, how quick was that, that bleach job? Right. It was fresh. No roots were showing. We're not. But it takes a really like multiple bleaches to get that. Is that true? White blonde. Yeah. I don't, I don't know these things.

I rely on you for all. You need some like purple shampoo for that. Like, it is tough to get it that high. So he had to do it a couple times. You know, you can't do it too quickly or also your hair will fall out. So it is time. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. So maybe it's more recent then because his hair looked beautiful. Yeah. It was intact. Yeah. Hadn't like dried, cracked, starting to fall out. No microbang issue. Oh, that's a Buffy reference. That's a Buffy reference that I'm now prepared to make. Speaking of hair, can I just read this email we got for our listener, Shawnee, who got me with the subject line. We've talked about our guy John Roxon, who's Orman, Hightower's like Second in Command, right? And his sort of nickname is bold B-O-L-D John

Roxton. One of our listeners sent us an email, Shawnee, titled, Bold B-O-W-L-E-D John Rockston, and I was just like, yes. Shawnee said, honestly, this scene gave us everything. Tassarian was like, I don't know her about fake Darren. So John's haircut that came straight out of the 1990s South Asian Mom Kitchen Bull Cut factory. Don't ask me how I know. I love John Roxon's haircut, but I am now forever going to think of him as bold. John Roxon is in Bullcut, John Roxton.

I have no notes. I have no notes. This is great. was really struck by the salt in the in the pepper too as somebody who is as you know um rocking a lot of gray stripes in my hair i looked at at bold john and i thought he gets it a bull cut in your future you think could i rock it yeah a bowl cut you could do anything let me tell you something i had a bull cut when i was a kid and i will send you some pictures i cut my own hair off my so did i should we should we post this like you cut your own no i didn't cut my own hair off

You cut your head. Yeah, because I was just like, I just really was like, you know, my mom was like, get your ears pierced. And I was like, no. And I'm going to cut my hair off and, you know, and then I rocked it for a while. You're like, I might have the feeble body of a woman. A bolt cut kid. Exactly. That's exactly what I said when I was in first grade.

When did you have a bull cut? You know, elementary school. Like, yeah. But earlier, really. And then it became like a banged bob sort of situation. Okay. I'm prepared to post-up photos. Oh, yeah.

It was the 80s. We all had bold cuts. Might have been 91 for me. Yeah, you're in 90s. You know, like, yeah. Everyone had a bull cut. No shame in the game. That's great stuff.

This stretch Joe. Yeah. So we get everything we just talked about with Ormond where we're like, okay, serious new player, serious new threat. This kind of dawning recognition will come for Renera at the end of the episode when it is too late. taken Tumbledin, he has duped them on the Darren front, Deserian is inside the town. We're watching this, and this is an exciting thing. I was thinking back, we talked a little bit

about, you know, you shared emails about like some of our bad babies were saying, oh, Taiwan on their mind with the Ormond intro in episode one, right? We talked about that. We talked, I think, about the Condal comments about how, like, this is the Taiwan of this season in terms of like means and money, right, and the standing of the high towers. But this is also where you get the Taiwan vibes in terms of just preparedness and what are you doing in the shadows to best your foe before they even realize you're there and to your poor just like fully in command of the situation yeah like as both agon see I'm not I'm not gonna throw Renera and Thailand to the bus method as both Aegon and Reneera have shown themselves like really ill suited to rule yeah you know everybody as did Joffrey you know etc etc and then you've got someone like a Taiwan lanister and Orman high tower they're like born to rule iron fist bit of an asshole. But everyone falls in line. Because, like, Reneer,

one of Reneer's made problems, Egan has so many problems. One of Reneer's made problems is, like, this uncertainty, this vacillation. You know what I mean? She's sort of like, if she didn't want to,

if Otto presents his neck, she doesn't want to cut his head off, and she's like, no, you do it, Damon. Yeah. That's more of a show of strength than crying and, and wobbling while you do it. You know what I mean?

If she's like, hey, the solution is to hunt in the Kingswood. Right. And Corl's like, we don't do that. She'd be like, so the fuck what. Yeah. Now we do, because my people are starving. You know what I mean?

Like you lead with confidence and certainty. I don't do as I say, not as I do, Ritera. But like, lead with confidence and certainty. And that's what a Tywin would do. And that's, you know, so the fuck what. Okay. Joffrey's the bastard. So the fuck what?

I'm the queen. You know what I mean? And I've got six dragons. Six. Yeah. I did note that Damon neglected to mention also we have three. dragons who are already dead. Let's factor that into the T-Black Dragon. Formally nine dragons. That damn it. Yeah, I think one of the things that this, that I so admired about this episode,

was the way that it, um, paired with what you're saying, this, like, undeniable aspect of Renera needing to consider what everybody else is thinking and whether to care, right? And so sometimes Renera does something bold, like, I don't know, serve a bunch of rats to the mid, the mid-year lords and ladies of the Cranlins. Don't worry. No consequences. It'll be fine. And it's like, what is everybody saying after that, right? So, like, the question of whether a ruler is overly cognizant of that or chooses to care, that's, like, one of the things that Damon kind of challenges Reneer on in this episode is who gives a shit.

We can do what we want, which is also a very flawed way of thinking about it. But I think you have, I mean, to Chris's great point of, like, you can't be, like, a Targaryan Democratic Socialist. Is that what he said? Right. Like, if you're, if you're like, I, I. I deserve to rule because of the divine right of kings and I've got a big fuck off dragon. Then like, I mean, I want a democratic socialist. You know, I want to like go live in Mdhanistan. Like, I'm like about it, right?

But like, you can't be those things unless you're like elected. And she's not. So she's like, I'm the ruler. And so you just say like my rule, my word is law. Like that's what you have to do. I'd be great on the throne. No, I wouldn't. I'd be very bad at it.

But like. You'd be wonderful in all respects. Your banquets would be resplendent. You would hear the petitions with the plume. I feel like if Tywin served a bunch of rats to nobles, people would be like, what a fucking badass. A legend, for sure. You're a king. And Reneer does it and they're like, that one was cuckoo birds.

You know what I mean? And so part of that's gendered, but part of that is just like consistency and certainty and all these other things. What do you go over time? Yeah. No standing you have in the realm. No question about it. I think also like, this is. is another fun thing about the Damon

mistakes and like his level of arrogance and entitlement in this episode. Like, Ormond and Damon are both playing each other here. But only Ormond understands that. Right? So that's like a real demerit

for Damon, that he is, you mentioned the word theater earlier. And the theater for Damon of indulging here and somebody else's in his enemy's misery, the ah, was like the best. I mean, it was all great, but that was just, He couldn't wait to mention auto. You know, he couldn't wait to kind of like put a little bit of spice on the word, you know, peace.

Like this is all bullshit. To him, this is like a farce to engage in this. He goes back and he says, Trinart, we should have just incinerated them. Right. Like, which we'll get to. Was Damon Wright? Maybe. Did he have some points, maybe?

But he's getting played and he has no idea because he's so sure that the might is right of the Targaryen rule is the only thing that's going to carry the day that he's not bothering to pay attention to what other people. people are doing. Huberous abounds here as both Reneer and Damon are like, war's over. And it's like, uh, except Vakers at large. Do you think Reneera did that? See, I don't think Reneer did that in this episode. Damon said it out loud multiple times, including here. The war has ended later.

He's like, the war is over. Obviously, by the end of the episode, he has to confront that that's not true. Reneira, I feel like, is very focused on, okay, what is it going to actually take to govern now that we're here? And that's something she has to challenge Damon on and Masari has to challenge Damon on. Damon's too busy. Like, oaf, we know what you want. You want a castle. You want all the shit that we're not going to give you.

Let me mock you about that in front of our enemy. Like, just some amazing shit. Great management of staff. All around. Really good stuff. Unbelievable. This was just an incredible scene. And of course, we'll get to the fake Darren stuff more as we go.

Anything else on this opening, Joe, before we move on? No, let's talk about Damon or anything else. Let's go to the tapestry. Oh, I guess we should just remind everyone that Ormond said one king is as good as another previously. That feels notable, given that. that he, again, swore a vow that he doesn't intend to keep? I have to wonder, like, is he thinking that way about his allies or just his enemies? Opening tapestry update.

What is new here this week, Joanna? Raniara Triumphon is here. Yeah. But most importantly, your favorite podcaster in Westeros, Masaria. Chart top of him. Has made the tapestry. I can sense a hit. Masario's like, I know a liar.

Queen maker. Queen maker of Malibin. You're like, Amy Poller should have a puck in the sara. Put her on a tapestry. Joanne, I gasped aloud when I saw it. Sorry on the tapestry. I'm sorry. Gasped aloud. Damon's also here. Yeah. Corliss, Allison. Yes. Helena. Yeah. A rat. I'm going to be honest with you. And this is, it's not news to you or anyone else that I need glasses. But I did initially think that it was auto's decapitated corpse. Because the rat has like some blood maybe on the whiskers. So I saw this just kind of shadowy shape and then blood on the front. And then I did some free frame Mahoney action. I was like,

Is this a corpse? I don't know. Then I realized it was a rat, and I was glad I caught that before we bought it. And then you and I both had some questions about the depiction of the small folk here. I guess it's meant to be, I think what's interesting about this is like,

usually the tapestry shows us what has happened. Prior episodes. So for the small folk to be here, sort of like, it could represent the petitioning small folk that come in front of the throne in this episode, or the people who show up to get a single Rudebaga from Reneer off the back of

a cart at the end or whatever the case may be. What an incredibly specific choice of conestible. You could have gone with anything. Rurterbaker's like genuinely, objectively the funniest special. I quite agree after hearing it. Maybe a person? I don't know. Wonderful.

But, but yeah, like the small folk, the besieching small folk. Yeah. And the rat, and like it all kind of feels like what happens on this episode. Very interesting. That would be kind of fun to just like show us, you know, little, little hints and glimpses of what's to come in the episode. That would be great. In future. Other shows do that. That's right. They do.

Battlestar, right? Yes. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. The tapestry after it's kind of blotted with the blood of all those small folk, then it just splits. Yeah, that seems great. Everything about Helena, hands turn looms, spool of greens, spool of green, spool of black, dragons of flesh, weaving dragons of thread. As you know, I'm always thinking about Helena. Yeah.

And bugs. And some of her early season, a little prophetic. words of wisdom. Should we, you know, in the Widows Bay era? Yeah. Should we get into Needlepoint? That's just a question in general. And if we do,

should all the quotes that we stitch be Helena prophecies? It's a great question. You've asked me over the years about like many hobbies we should take up, and I feel like we should take up skateboarding before we do this. And archery.

There's like a few others that I feel. You convicted us on the public record to learning to skateboard. So we know, I mean, we literally have to. We have no choice. I mean, but we haven't started yet. Well, we've been busy. We haven't busy. And we're frail. And I'm going to get hurt. We are very frail. Archery is one I'm most excited about, but we could also needlepoint. That's also a cool, badass thing to do. I mean, why not both? You know, archery paired with the Odyssey would be good.

That would be fun, not the way of time in the next couple weeks. But so it goes. Okay, those are the opening credit updates. Great stuff. Maybe they're like, we're just going to put the small phone in because we don't want to keep updating this. Could it be that? I guess. Just unlock forever. Sure. No more updates to come.

Small folk. Doesn't look great for them. It is good. Life is a small folk. Kind of sucks. I mean, I, we could, we won't. Or will we? But we could do an entire pod just on the incredibly obnoxious, rich bro, things that Damon says about.

They're a, forever their appetites. I always want to be fed. But it's just as usual, amazing stuff. from Matt Smith. Okay. Renira, it's time to begin a real normal one here, Joe. And I think we should begin it by staring in our dead father's bed

and listening to the whistle in the air. Thinking about our dead mom. Thinking about our dead mom and our dead dad and talking about the ghosts because the air is thick with them. But it's important to note, not unhappy ones.

Not unhappy ones. This is interesting because that room is full of certainly memories like the one Rainera chooses to share here, right? Like thinking about being child and going to share a special time, like a more innocent time, right, with her family before everything went to shit. So many awful things have transpired in that room. And I mean, I guess the blend even was there at the end. You know, you have something like that bed where Vassaris lay dying. Yeah. And also Agon with his burst cock.

Sausage on this bit. Same bed. I would just say, hey, Rainira, get a new bed commissioned. Yeah. It was a good suggestion from Masaria. Yeah. What about a fresh mattress? New bed.

Some new linens. Don't worry about it. Different room. We got a lot of rooms. The Red Keefe is fucking huge. Now, as a matter of principle, if I became queen, I would not want to have to take a lesser room than the royal bed chamber. I would take like, why not three, I'll take three other rooms for the one royal bedchamber. chamber. Yeah. Yes. You use the main one for whatever your equivalent of Lego building is as a hobby.

Maybe that's where you learn to skateboard. Correct. Or do your needlepoint. Or both at the same time. Or both. And then, yeah, you have a different chamber for sleeping. All sorts of. I have this is a great idea. You take all the rooms. This is where she appealed to Viseris. This final plea. If you chose me and you wanted to be me, stand for me, right? Take a walk? Take a long, long walk. And he did. It's also, of course, where I met his namesake.

The way that he responded to knowing Damon was there. Oh, Damon, Damon. Oh, Damon. But a lot of grim shit has happened in there, too. I have to ask you. Yeah. When you heard the air is thick with ghosts, did you think of Luthon? With what?

What does Luton say? I share my dreams with ghosts. This really gave me Luthen vibes. thinking about Alan Rickman in Sense of Civilian and he goes, the air is full of spices. Rather spices than ghosts, but you know what I mean. Never a bad time to mention Alan Rickman. Sure. Or Sense and Sensibility. Colonel Brandon. Are excited for the new sense of sensibility? Mixed. Mixed. Mixed. Yeah. It doesn't feel like quite at the Dobbins level of like I won't. Oh man and I have shared

many texts about this. Great stuff. Damon shares what we already noted. He says we should have incinerated them all, and I'd like to ask you if you agree. Listen, maybe, maybe not all, but maybe like a few just to teach them a lesson. Or I actually think Chris's advice was the best advice. It was just like, leave, let's say,

I would always pick Adam or Bela personally, but like let's leave our most reliable Dragon Rider to just hover flap above them as they go back down the rose road, which is what they said they were going to do. Keep eyes. Keep eyes, maintain eyes for sure. Eyes and skies.

Yes. Gare them with moon dancer or sea smoke. That's a great idea. I mean, they're too busy scouting for Vagar and cheap steeler. Which is an important priority. Yeah. Fucking find Vagar is a huge, should be a huge priority. And you can't spread the dragon math too many places because then you can't defend the capital.

It is tough. It's an unenviable position to be in. I don't think the solution is just trust Storm and Hight Tower when he bent the new ones and allow 15. He said. 15,000 hide-downer soldiers. He said he was gonna, and he was full of ship. No surprise. Here's the thing.

Reneira later will invoke the word conciliator, which, of course, makes us think of Jeharis the first. That was his moniker, Jeharris, the Conciliator. You know, and this idea of, like, how you incorporate that intention into your rule is an important consideration for the ruler. The idea of, like, the part of the reason that Ormond was able to prep fake Darren,

you know, we could think of something like Theon, right? being raised after the Grady Joy Rebellions. Yeah. At taken hostage and raised at Winterfell. This is like a practice in the kingdom. You do that with plenty of the houses who aligned with Team Green. You can't show this level. You can't do this with Ormond High Tower and the High Towers.

You just can't. They're the house that staged a coup. They're the house that staged a coup. They did do a coup. Remember Allison's led sitting there on the Jack mattress of her nude having just masturbated son. I got it still an incredible choice on the show's behalf. The old jackpad.

Do you remember that? Is that a model that Casper mattress sells? It might be. It might be. Yeah. Yeah, it's a hybrid. It's an observant. Okay, got it.

White. You are the challenge. Right. You love that line. Living and breathing. Yeah. And it's like, well, that's why the person is. priorities are Darren with Tessarian. I understand. I understand this because Darren with

Deserian seems like the easiest get. Let's get that one. Fager and Amon, that's a scary one. But we got to get Vagar and Eman. Yeah. And Egan, we can't find him. We don't know where he is. And she's trying. Renner is trying. She's like, we got to find Agon. And Allison's like, he's burned. No one knows what he looks like. Just say he's dead. It's fine. And Reneer is like, how dare you try to spare him? And then also kind of a good idea. I'm going to do it immediately. Great idea. I'm going to just put that into action immediately, which was great.

Allison should be on the High Council. We did get... That'd be amazing. We got an email from a listener. I forget. I do not remember their name. They had the perfect diplomatic solution for all, not diplomatic, but like... For everything, solve the dance.

Well, here's a thing. Yes. But here's the thing. You mentioned DeHars the Consolator. And I was thinking about, like, there... Reneer is not the first nor the last reformer monarch. There have been reformer Targaryans and there will be reformer Targaryans. And it often does.

does not go well for reformer Targaryens. But I was like, Jeharis and good Queen Alassane, like, how do they get so much stuff done and not piss people off? And so it's just an interesting thing. You know, Vesars is always cautioning us to look at the history books and sort of see. This was the solution that our listener came up with. Mary Bela. Don't worry, Bella. You don't get a saying what you do.

Mary Bela to Darren. Okay. And then, like, the high tower still have, like, a high tower king. Coralus still has a descendant on the throne. You know, all of that happens. And then Reneer could be like, my heir is a woman. It's Bela. Sure.

You know, and that's what I'm doing. Things are going great between Bala and Reneer right now. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I'm just saying if we're thinking the long game and we're thinking intelligently, this is maybe an interesting solution. Our listener also suggested in this setup that Bela could, like, top dumb Darren given their age differences in a real Marjorie Terrell kind of situation. And I agree.

Interesting. Marjorie Terrell on our minds across this episode as we hand out food to the common folk, et cetera. So always want to. We clash with the faith? Exactly. I think that it is the kind of creative and thoughtful and difficult but thus may be right approach that Reneira would be open to. I mean, Reneer was the one at the small council back in the day who suggested that, Allison and Reneira figure out how to betroth their children together to bridge this gap. Now, of course, that was motivated by self-preservation. But, like, what is it? Ultimately, right? It's human nature.

No one else was ready for that. And so I think this is, it's an interesting, you know, thinking of Jiharis and Alassane on the heels of Magor and a realm in turmoil and chaos. And right in the scene, we have, like, Reneira invoking Vesaris. He comes up many times in this episode. Masaria will ask what would Vesaris have done? But like Vassaris is a peacetime king. Exactly. So you're on the heels of peace time different than coming in on the heels of turmoil and destruction and despair, Magor of the cruel.

So that's, that is an interesting distinction. Some of it is like that the relationship between Jay Harris and Alessane was, I mean, that is ultimately, I thought it was really notable that we, Damon really tells on himself a lot in this episode. I do think he's right here that they should have just toasted everyone. Toasted everyone. I'm very worried about the general kind of like burn them all vibes coming from. our dynamic duo of Damon and Rainer on this episode. It's concerning. Brings up some Danny-centric stuff for us all, obviously.

But in this particular case, I think that what he's saying is not without merit and consideration. Reneer is saying I need to prove myself worthy of my father's choice. Justify it. Justify it. And so much of this episode is about legitimacy. Emma Darcy talked about this on the inside of the episode, right? This is about this obsession with legitimacy. And some of it is those symbols of what did Egon have?

every symbol of legitimacy was his, right? So I need a version of that with, okay, I can't have a coronation while at least an anointing. But some of it is just proving worthy of Viseras's choice. And the prophecy, like, Damon is looking at it not as like, I think this is such an important, it's a distinction that I love in them as characters and a couple, like both an insestual marriage,

but also two members of the Targaryen dynasty, people who want to rule, et cetera. Damon has now embraced the prophecy after his Herald trip. And he is like, what this does is this confirms my idea that we are gods. This confirms the lot, like our line, we are chosen ones. The Mira is, of course, falling many times into the fanaticism trap, which comes up many times in this episode again. But also it's like still connected to the core Viseris inheritance of the protector. Protection.

Protecting the realm. And that's not, as Damon makes clear, not what he is focused on at all. No. It is interesting to think, like, is this a solvable tension, right? It's like Renera having to confront the fact that the path to the throne, having gained it now, but keeping it certainly is, like at odds with that mission, that core mission, once you're seated upon it. And, like, is that something you can find a way to reconcile and navigate? Like, maybe, maybe not.

That's kind of a bummer. I was curious to ask you if you thought that that Fokor Otto Hightower got in Renair's head a little bit with those final words that curse of off of the stairs. That's what I was going to say. So the justify. I need to justify my father's choice. But it's not just that. I think it's also justify what happened to Luke and justify what happened to Jace and justify all of the things that had to happen to get me here. It has to have been worth it.

I need to have been worth losing my two beloved sons who hid their faces in my skirts when they were little. You know what I mean? Like that's, it's a lot of justification and it's not just her father's choice. It's all these other things. And that's one of the buttons that Damon is really trying to like intentionally push, right? Like will those deaths and sacrifices? Will we let them be in vain? Which like there's wisdom to, but also is kind of manipulative.

This is so fat. I love part. I was really talking about it as like I think one of the reasons we love this episode so much is because we do root for Reneera. We believe Reneera belongs here. We want Reneera to prevail. We care about Rineer. we're invested. We love Damon for very different reasons. To watch these characters air and make mistakes and be so human and sometimes to make those mistakes and error for reasons that make

complete sense and sometimes to do it like through folly. What's better than that? I know. Than getting to watch that. I mean, especially if you've been like staunchly team black. So, and this is not me throwing our own social team under the bus at all. But like the social clip that came out of the talk this runs was just like, is we're near a bad ruler? And I'm like, Not a bad social head, but like not at all really the sentiment that we were going for necessarily. Like I'm not saying Reneer as a bad ruler at all. I'm saying both Agon and Reneira were ill prepared for this role. And Reneira especially even more than Agon has inherited an absolute fucking mess in terms of like empty coffers.

You know, rat infested candles, et cetera, et cetera. But like people she can't trust all these other things. Like she's set up to fail and also her own human following. is getting in her way. Like, there's a lot in the mix here. But it's not just like, woman bad at, at being ruler, bring back the guy who raped people. You know, like, that's, I'm not, I'm not about king hang on at all, you know, but to have been team black, to have been pro-Ranera and say Reneer was cheated out of her rightful inheritance, uh, were obviously team black over team green except for Chris Ryan, et cetera, et cetera, fuck that guy, Kristen Cole,

like, all this sort of stuff like that. And then team black gets in here and they just like, Yeah. Own goal after own goal, honestly. Sports show. Yeah, World Cup Joanna. Never gone for long. Check in it. Joe, it's time for Renera to meet the heaviest air quotes possible. Daron. Fake Darren. I thought that the scene was absolutely incredible and I was cracking up watching this. And I just love after quite some time of being really perplexed by not introducing Darren into the story. We got some little kernels, little nuggets. I love that you feel like this is just like... Mean in and full. I don't disagree with you. I just love that you are like so delighted by this. It's how I'm choosing to read it.

It's like we fucked around and made you wait. Yeah, we're going to make you wait longer. And now we're going to, we're going to really... We're going to super fuck around for one episode. And I should say, I ended up really loving all this, this, this Darren stuff and thought it revealed many interesting things about the characters and their relationships to each other. I'm relieved and really pleased that it only...

was a one episode gambit. I think this would have been very hard to extend. I agree. So, you know, a lot of their squirliness around this this season, obviously, was to preserve this little switcheroo that they're doing here. But, like, what if they had just announced this actor as Darren Targaryen? And then, like, in the trailer, as they did last week, you hear Darren's name and you see this blonde kid in the trailer last week.

So what if they had done that in a previous trailer? And they'd just been like, this is Darren. And then they just said, J.K. it's not this blonde kid, it's someone else. Would that have been like better or worse? Like, I don't know. I'm glad you're asking this because this had not occurred to me, but now that you're posing this, not announcing Darren had people like asking why and what was going on.

And thus maybe a little bit more prepared for some like shenanigan in the plot mix than otherwise would have been the case. So I don't know if there's some like sort of sag after rule why they couldn't do that or something like. that, but like, or maybe once you announce Darren, then it's like, why isn't Darren at, like, the junk gets and stuff like that? Sure. I don't know. I guess it could have been any number of things. Yeah.

But here is this clearly not appropriately aged child. Great stuff when after this meeting, Renier, it's like, younger than I thought. I thought it was really, really funny. So funny. Really good. This entire introduction is amazing. But before we get to it, we want to just talk for a minute again about the filmmaking from Claire Kilner here because so much of this episode is.

delivered to us via the walk-and-talk. Moving through corridors, the pace of the day, sometimes the score really increases in tempo to pair with what Reneera is talking about or where Reneer is going. Characters are weaving in and out of a given passage way to try to ask Reneer

a question of whatever varying significance or just why didn't you ask somebody else about these candles, as you, I think, very rightly noted. This Claire Kilner quote from the House the Dragons Built special, I thought it was just like, it's been so cool to hear Claire talk

the last couple weeks about the approach to making these episodes. I loved this idea of being behind her. Like, behind the workings of her brain in a way. Just a simple camera move. But it's like crawling around her head to her ear and then the world in front of her being out of focus. This idea that we're like positioned

right in Reneer's mind in that stress, again, the sound treatment and sound design really heightening that. And then you look ahead and you can't tell where you're going. Right. Either can run your. I love that. Also in the small council scene or one of the small council scenes when she's at the window and the camera's just on her face and everything else is like blurry out of focus behind her. I thought all of that stuff was so good. We got a great email from listener Nicole who was like, this made me really want other POV, you know, types of episodes. What if we had gotten like a Tywin episode, right? How incredible to see a season master of manipulation

like talent, Taiwan. How cool would it be to see how far ahead he was thinking when he was writing all those letters? How thrilling would it be to see what people would dare to ask of him? I would bite my own toe off to see that. That's Cape Fear reference. Is it? Oh, no. Yeah. So Cape Fear, I wouldn't do it. But, yeah. So is there a character that you would have loved to have had like a POV? I think Taiwan or Tyrion would have been really, like, Like one of these extremely competent Hand of the King situations would have been really fun.

I would want to say like everyone. You know, give me a Jamie. Give me a gran. Yeah. Give me a pod. Why not? Give me a hot pie episode. Give me a hot pie.

You've got to brown the butter. Then we actually see the branding of the butter and really understand how true that is. What about? The famous hot pie episode of Game of Thrones? I would watch. Yeah. What about like moving forward now, though? Is there another house of the dragon character you would want to like see, receive this

treat me? Maybe Ormond Hightower. I'm like really intrigued by him. Or Alice Rivers. What's a day in the life of Alice Rivers? That was what I thought you were going to say. Okay, fair enough. Until you get to your actual answer. Laris. Okay. Generally yes. It's Larry's. I mean. It's obviously layers. No, we almost can't do it because we can't know. We can't know. We can't know. We can't know. Yeah. You mentioned it, yeah, the West Wing Walk and Talk, the episode that I, and we got a couple emails about this, but I promised you this is already in my mind. I was really reminded of, um, the drug trip episode of Widows Bay in the way in which this

film, this episode was shot, obviously it's not inspired but that because they were made sort of like contemporaneously. But in that episode, if you watch Widows Bay or whatever, and in this episode, we're constantly like find the character sort of like in the middle of a scene. We just like drop into the middle of the scene. We're not, we don't have any like establishing shots. The one where it really clicked for me is when she jostles awake in the carriage. And that's just like in the drug trip episode of Widows Bay, if you've not seen it's incredible episode. But like Matthew Rees' character is just constantly like coming to in the middle of meeting, you know, and it's just sort of like, and he's been here the whole time, but not really here.

And so following Renier's sort of like wandering mind from one scenario to the next really reminded me of that, which I love. I love that. Do you think that Reneira has done any mushrooms inside of the span of this episode? I don't know. It was in that tea. She didn't drink it, but what was in other cups of that tea? Really good question. Who's to say? Also, like, you know, we haven't gotten to the Jace Ghost part, But I was just thinking about, like, I was thinking about Damon, like, sort of coming to. And the way in which King's Landing has, King's Landing has become, like, a heron hall of a kind for Rainira. Like, it's the air is thick with ghosts. That's a her heron hall.

Seeing her dead son in the hallway. That's, she's in a haunted castle. And it's her home where she grew up. Yeah. And I just, I just kind of love that, you know? No hot witch or wearwood paste, just your fucking trauma? What a bummer. I know.

What a hot bummer. Bring me that hot witch. Oh my God. Yeah. She's not yet asked for a hot witch. She has asked for a coronation. Tornies. We have so many moments across various throws properties where we're like, okay,

Ned doesn't want the hands turning. And then it's a fucking calamity. Vassaris is like the tourney from my air. Fucking calamity. So just hearing these words out of her near her gives me that good. Yeah, exactly. That good kind of like, oh, no. celebrations at inopportune times.

Let's focus on other stuff. Yeah. And of course, Massaria is like, hey man, show of wealth is not, this is not the moment. Very wise words from Missaria.

I remember when King Charles was coordinated and everyone was like, really? The people of the UK cannot pay their gas bill and you're having a big fancy coordination. And I was just thinking about like, how far we traveled from like Charles and Diana's wedding and the whole world being like,

what a moment, you know, we deserve this, we need this, you know, to being like, get your fucking, riches out of my face. I don't want to see it.

And so, you know. Not Damon Targaryen. That wasn't his reaction. If he watched King Charles' coronation in our actual world, that might be the most, like, channeling Bill's spirit moment for me in the history of our pond. What year was Game of Thrones? Thirteen hundreds? Oh, God. I'd like to just enjoy watching Renira introduce herself to her own brother, who she has never met, because I thought that this was one of the funniest things I'd seen. We've not met. I'm your half-sister

and our father's chosen heir. You've flown in service of your brother the usurper. What have you to say? What is your favorite? I don't know. Usurper, maybe. The calm, like, what have you to say?

The very matter of fact, like, angry teacher, like, what have you to say? But she's, like, trying to be, like, have, like, saccharine and sweet. Like, like a little, like, like, freaking Julie Andrews in sound of music, but also just, like... What do you say?

This is why I feel like... I'm your half-sister. Rinear. Amadarsi is so funny in this episode. The comedy in this episode is so delicious. This is one of the moments that really makes me feel like they're like, let's just lean in to like how long we waited for Darren. Because the idea that these...

We got a little bit of it with Damon like, you know, oh, well, that nephew. Like, these characters literally in TV land don't know each other. And we should just, we should clarify. Like, yes, in the book, Darren is also a high tower ward. Like he was raised in Old Town, that's true. But he has, he and Jace, for example, were Milk Brothers. They would have seen the red head of hair on the baby.

They have met this character. This seems like Allison gave birth and like the baby still covered in placenta was like whist away to, you're not covered in placenta. Anyway, like whist away to Old Town, sort of like still foot and mulling. You know what I mean? Yes. This is exactly what it seems like. And Allison's like, all right, once in the last five years, but then has to ask, you know, go in and season two, like, what's my own kid like?

Like, these characters don't know. So that also unlocked, while it was a little puzzling maybe to begin with, it unlocks our ability to run out a gambit like this, which I think, like, you could say, like, is this improbable? But to me, it feels like kind of a proud tradition of, like, Thrones' false identities. Oh, sure. I mean, like, Alan's been shaving his head so that the, like, white blonde Valerian hair has not grow in, you know what I mean? Like hair is a, is a big thing in, um, in Game of Thrones

in terms of hiding people. But don't tell Egon. He's still like, I'm not in this episode. I did miss Egon and Lyra's, but still walking around with that telltale hair. But a knight of the seven kingdoms understands that hair can reveal who you are and you might want to shave it. Um, but it was really funny because or there's a deleted scene somewhere out there in the universe of Orman and let's say, bold John Roxon having like a cup of late at not bold. John Roxon, having like a cup and a cigar in their tent, a pipe, let's say, lit at night. And Ormond Hightower is going to be like, you know what those fuckers don't even know what he looks like. We could just put a complete, we just like, let's bleach, let's torment a child and threaten his mother and bleach his hair and send him on his way.

They don't know what he looks like. That's right. They don't even know what he looks like. That's right. He's disfigured now and we hit him. So. And yet, he was about to shave his head. Tough. Had you ever as a hair expert heard that term. Were you familiar? I, of course, had no idea. It's like, new to me. I think only because I've read enough, like, well, you've read a lot of fantasy. I've read it in, like, in, like, fantasy novels. I'm sure I've come across it. Yeah. It didn't encode. Yeah. It didn't encode. Yeah. Do you have a favorite Thrones?

Like, I'm pretending to be someone I'm not, uh, attempt, either for comic value or actual, like, success. Do you have a favorite? I think, um, aria's sort of like sassy, shaggy little haircut. I'm just thinking of that. Yeah. I think just for the payoff of Gendry being like, oh, I was like talking about like cox and. Oh, God, this is so good. It's wonderful stuff. Though, of course, where would we be without Littlefinger?

Telling Sonsa, Blup Yard. Oh, yeah. Well, Sonsa's box black hair dye. Merebral shit. So good. Very interesting. So great.

For goth makeover. Remember that moment when she walks down the stair? Vividly. Vividly. Wonderful stuff. Ginger's not welcome Not welcome Okay Damon

Yeah You know after Reneera says to Darren to fake Darren What's Ormond up to What do you have to say for your brothers You know tries to get information out of him And we realize that this character Who is not actually this character Will not say a word until forced to at the very end of the episode

Anyway I thought this kid was really good Fantastic fantastic stuff Demons like You're gonna have to kill him By the way, got to have to kill. And the multiple, the recurring refrain across this episode of Damon basically, like, rounding a corner casually or like leaving a scene, you know, dismissed from the parapets. Like, by the way, you're still going to have to kill Darren. Really, really got me.

I thought it was great. Small counsel. Before we get there. Yeah, please. Can I read, so we get this email. Oh, yes, absolutely. Is it about no man being as a curse as a kinsterner? No, is it not?

One of our listeners was saying, hey, shouldn't the priority be Vagar? We've already kind of talked about that. But I do agree. And our listeners' point was sort of like, Reneer prioritizing taking the red keep versus getting Vagar feels like a more chasing like the wrong thing, a symbolic thing. But I kind of think it's just sort of like this is the opportunity. Allison has said she'll do this thing. Reneer has decided to believe her. Begar is absent.

Let's take the – I mean, I don't think the moves of Team Black are terribly bad. We've seen worse. They're looking for Vigar. They had the fucking seeds. Reneira sent the seeds to Harenhall to wait for Vagar. So had, in fact, accounted for that, they abandoned their post. They left. And now here we are.

Where's Vagar? And fine, Cortley's, I guess. I just can't get over off being like we were there at the gullet. I just can't. I mean, the fucking chutzpah. I want to talk about the moment that I was like, we're really in an episode now. We're cooking. Yeah.

tell me is when Damon says let us begin right right yes yes yes and then we get that first sort of like bong of the bell that that will follow us at any rate we must begin bonn yeah and this idea of the bonging of the bell and how it sort of like takes us into a number of these scene transitions as we go forward yes I got this great email from our listener max about the use of the bell And he says at first I was a little bothered by it because it felt unearned like a rip off of the more in-world motivating tolling sounds from some other recent shows, Stranger Things, had the distorted tolling of the grandfather clock, which had some sonic similarity.

But I was reminded even more of the metallophone tolling of the hours on Ferricks and Andor season one, which became the announcements of the passing of time between episode blocks, as well as an ominous countdown to Rogue One and Andor's self-sacrifice. In my mind, Hot D hadn't earned this as an iconic in-world sound, but now we can connect the sound design to what y'all were talking about on Talk the Thrones. This whole episode has been not just a rewrite of Dineris' madness arc, but a temporal zooming in, like taking the moment where Amelia Clark was asked to convey an entire absent character arc in mere seconds without even the help of dialogue and giving Emma Darcy at least a full episode to accomplish the same thing. It's like each toll of the bells was expanded.

stretched. Each second long interval between bell strikes is now expanded to a full scene of struggling to rule wisely in face of complex challenges. Each strike of the bell is another compromise demanded another set of competing stakeholders who will probably all end up unsatisfied. The tolling now has time to take a toll. I've long felt that Hot D is presenting two theories of power. I love this. I should have cut this email down, but I didn't because I loved it. I've long felt that Hot D is presenting two theories of power. I've long felt that Hot D is presenting two theories of power. I've long felt that Hot D is presenting two theories of power. the Greens are for a kind of devolved, feudal, or confederated rule where there's reliance on norms and diplomacy, team black, diplomacy, where rulers behave as expected, like adhering to precedent of male-only primogeniture, etc. Meanwhile, the blacks are all political absolutism, where the divine mandate of monarchy means you can be above the rules and norms, a ruler can appoint a successor regardless of inheritance traditions. political absolutism can be tough to maintain without relying on rule through fear, though, which is the tension for both Reneira and Dineris. It's hard to be, quote, my way or the highway as a ruler, unless you're cracking eggs to make an omelet. Otherwise, you need to govern through the consent of the govern, which will always require compromise, and exactly those compromises that comprise the toll represented by the tolling of the bells.

So, great email, Max. Thank you so much. I love this idea of this, like, time dialogue. related version of DeNaris's bell tolling. I don't know if that's intentionally what they were invoking, but I love that idea. And also this, you know, we had already kind of talked about a little bit, but this idea of like, if you're going to be, if you're going to come in with your big fuck off dragons and say, we're the boss now, how can you reconcile that with Messeria being like a kinder gentle ruler? Which is what Renera wants to be. Like, she does genuinely, I think, care about the people. And she wants to be a good. And she wants to be a good. good kind ruler. But like, in this very moment, that's not really available to her, you know? Yeah. It's a tricky one.

And like there's no, because the war is on and the threats are out there, there's no, like, grace period. There's no room. That's also part of what was so brilliant, not only about the choice to do this kind of conceptual treatment in the episode, but to do it now, immediately, to make us feel what Renira is feeling, which is like there's no reprieve in sight, not even for a second. And that's in terms of the decision making and the logic and the logistics of ruling the realm. But it's also no reprieve from the grief like you were talking about earlier. Right. And so when we think about how little time has passed, you know, we were in episode two when Jason's body was brought in, we were talking about like, what is everybody in that room observing and thinking?

Like we as people who watch the show and read the book and love Renera are like bowled over. by that portrait of grief, right? And then you look at their faces and you're like, what do they see here? This lady's cuckoo bananas. They see like a break, right? The number of scenes in this episode that gave us a version of that, what are the characters who are watching Reneira being served rats to people?

Yeah. Like her hand is in the hallway yelling bastards, you know, and she's just constantly observed. She's constantly observed. Yes. Oh, perfect way to put it. Like, I think the best case that Renewa could hope for after something like the rat banquet, the best case is like basically a recurring.

Which I thought was kind of cool. I mean, it was a little bit. You love a party with a theme. I do. You love a party with a theme. I do. You do. Best case is like a recurrence of the, the season two, Renera the cruel refrain.

Best case. Tough. And the worst case is Targ Madness, right? And then you add in the gendered elements. Like are people saying that about Damon as he shouts like we should have incinerated them all? Maybe, but maybe not. And so I think we feel very similarly to, you know, to Max wrote the email. And we talked about this on Talk to Thrones with Chris.

And Chris was feeling it like to really get to sit in the space of each decision and each moment and the anguish of knowing that everybody is judging and watching and waiting. And that sometimes you are actually trying your best and you have the right intention. It's not good enough. sometimes you fucked up, right? I think that the way that they're like, this is true of the world more broadly, the story more broadly, not just Hot D. And this was present with Danny

just very badly botched in the final seasons of Thrones. But it's not just the final, it's like botched, you know, because we see her ruling. Yes. And they even try to add one of the best characters in the show, Tyrion to the mix

to try to like spice it up. But like, you know, and we see her being presented with like upset goat herders and all these, you know, all this sort of stuff. And it just wasn't done as well as this was done. I will do what queens do. I will rule. But like at the end in particular, the short line between loss and grief and that like fracture, right, is a woolly, knotty road to navigate.

But it is part of this text, I think, unquestionably, right? And I loved what I really, really loved. And I've been thinking about the question you posed on Talk to Thrones of like, What do we mean by madness when we talk about the Targaryians and how fair is that and how fair is it not? And obviously the answer probably varies character to character. But it's... Mad King Arias. You can't walk it back. I never...

I never... I did not. On a very popular podcast. I did not. I said I'd eat on that and I'd say... I said, not every Targary... You stood on that. You stood on that.

I was proud. And I would said, not every Targaryen is mad, but I did not defend... Good old wildfire Burnham all I mean you can't You're too much of a Jamie stand To Everside with the Bad King At the end of the day

That's your true That's your true shield there Just thinking about him right now Like grimy in a hot tub With a little bandaged arm Stick it up By what right Yeah

There's no money So let's talk about that There's no money There's no gold There's no coin The coffers are empty And the small council is fucking useless Let's just say it

They're a mess Before Corliss is like like a screaming bastard in the hallways. Oh my God. He sucks at his job also. It's just incredible energy from everyone in this stretch. So the Orwell kind of provides this helpful, quick reminder in this scene that Thailand, like, I'm going to divide the coin.

Where is it? We have more information from reading the books. The show has not yet revealed that. We'll find out in time. The point that we need to know right now is it's not here. and as basically every subsequent moment in this episode makes clear, that's a huge fucking problem. Yeah.

Because you need money to do literally anything. Do anything, including rule the seven kingdoms, it turns out. So that's tough. Worrying and not the only worrying thing, but certainly worrying. This turns into like a little debate about Orwell's trustworthiness. Because he kind of is like, let me tell you why this bug is a feature. The fact that I don't know, I've really respected this. The fact that I don't know proves that I wasn't in with them.

Orwell's hustle. It's working. On parallel. His head is still on his shoulder, so it's obviously working. The fact that this immediately sparked not the first and not the last bickering bout between Masari and Damon was just delightful. I fancy I can sniff a lie. Killed me. Damon just immediately saying, no one asked you.

And then just a well actually, we haven't appointed any. given out any jobs except for Masaria, she has a job. She has a job title. Okay. I would like to say once again, not for the first time, not for the last time on this podcast, and I'm team rinera. This is a real give Damon this update before the team meeting. What is wrong with every character? Corley's later during the petitions when she says the thing about the King King's Wood and he's like, hey, maybe a different time. We'll talk for them. Yeah. And there's just like mirror moments later, he's like, bastard! Oh, my God, you're right. Productive done in the small council meetings.

They're just talking to each other. He's like, let's be discreet and talk about this elsewhere. Bastard. What the fuck? Oh, God. Because I know you're always like John and Sansa have literally one meeting. Yes. Have one meeting.

This is throughout this. Like, if Renira had had, I would say, Reneera have a fourth-rate conversation with Corliss and be like, before he corners you in a hallway, say, I can't do it right now. I want to. Not just mutter of hull and scamper out of the room. So then, like, Adam has to say, so bad. Dad, she didn't make me a Valerian.

He's like, how did the nighting go? And he's like, pretty bad, actually. I got real fucked and embarrassed in the most important moment of my life. So, like, she didn't, like, have a conversation with Adam, who's, like, been such a devoted, like, Dragon Rider to her. Like, all of this is bad. Yeah, Masari's got a job. And she's also handed out jobs to a little bit of Massey. You know what I mean?

Glad to have a Linda back. I'm worried. Here's the thing. Tell me. So there, you know, Reneer makes a lot of mistakes in this episode. And book readers are like, I can see all the dominoes that are going to fall from these mistakes. Yeah. Right.

But then there's like unknown quantities. And it's put me in a paranoid Reneer estate because I'm just sort of like, here's a Linda Massey. Yeah. I don't know. Right. But she's Masaria's person. You know what I mean? And I'm just sort of like, and this has nothing to do with Masaria.

I'm just sort of like, has Alina Masi done things for Team Black? Yes. But where is her allegiance ultimately? And Roneira is welcoming right into the dead center of intimacy here. And so it's just put me in the Reneira paranoia situation where I'm just sort of like, similarly with like Tori Mandelese here. And like, this is a book character, but they're using him differently. And so I'm just sort of like, what, what are you doing here? And what's your take on this?

And so, like, I am, like, really, I'm seeing enemies everywhere. Well, I mean, like you said, so is Renair. I like that you're phrasing that is, like, putting you in that perspective of paranoia. Like, maybe that's where they want us. I thought it was, hearing you say that, like, it's, I'm recalling that Chris on Talk to Thrones was like, should we trust this person when she hands that teed or Reneera? It's like, interesting because I hadn't thought of that in real time. I thought Reneer was just like, I can't believe I have to, like, deal with not. Right.

She's like, council meeting, but Chris is like, is that poison. Chris is like Riner thinks it was poison. I don't think Reneer thought it was poison. But like, should we be wondering? Not if it's poison, but like... Just as can anybody be trusted at any point in time? Cape Fear has infected my brain. So if someone cuts off their own toe and people are poisoned.

And eats it. They eat their own toe? He like bites his own toe off and swallows it. On purpose. He's under the influence of mind-altering drugs. Kapalamine, which is a real drug that you can use to influence people, apparently. So when I saw that tea, I was like, is there scopolamine in that tea? Cape Fear has boiled my brain entirely.

I really liked the way you tacked on, apparently. After saying that with such conviction and certainty. No, it's like a real thing. I mean, it sounds like, you know. Have you ever used it on anyone? We've just gotten a bunch of people from people being like, have you heard about the good word about scopolamine? I feel like I'm not missing out.

It's an anti-nagea drug that is also linked to, like, the creation of something. Why are we talking about Cape Fear? I don't know. I feel like I'm missing out. I don't want to talk about Cape Fear anymore. I've talked about it so much. Let's talk about legitimacy. Erniera focused here on the coronation.

You know, Agons was hasty. Hers must be proper, she says, and leave the realm in no doubt. It's not about vanity, because Masario is like, is this the time? It's about legitimacy. We talked about that legitimacy idea already, but just tracking these moments where this is really rearing its head as a concern. And Masari is not just worried about the optics, right? She's worried about the practical reality of needing to feed the people because they just saw in season two, you know, to the hungry room. reserve feed, right? The fact that

Amand was like, close the gates. Like, I don't give a shit about the small folk being hungry was something that, as Sylvie, one of the petitioners, reminds Renira of, like, the connection to, and that's another, I'm a Masaria person, right? Sylvie coming back to the mix, so that's interesting.

They were able to take the lax approach of Team Green to caring for their people and turn it to their favor. So Masaria knows because they have very recent proof that this is a real thing that they should take. seriously, Reneira deciding to care about this and want to feed the people, right and good. One Rutapega at a time. One Runevega at a time.

Writing good. Paring that with the botched diplomacy with the lords, interesting mix and interesting brew in terms of the decisions that she's making here. I mean, what's true, and we said this on Talk of Thrones is that Reneera is just like shit at diplomacy. They really could use Jace right now, but uh-oh, he's not at the bottom of the gullet, but metaphorically at the bottom of the gullet, but metaphorically at the bottom of the gullet. it. He's dead. You think Jace would have been like, I saw Joffrey take a cow pie to the face when the rioters and Kings Landing were hungry? Like, I know what this can look like. I know how it can go. Here's what I think. I think she could have sent Jace to the veil. Instead, she said,

Damon. I'm sure it'll be fine. Where he murdered his hot wife, Ray O'Royce. I mean, he's beloved in the veil. Belved. You murdered a lady. Gerald definitely didn't show up to a royal wedding and, like, challenge Damon to the death because he's so So let's send Damon on the diplomacy mission. Yeah. What should be happening is Damon should go back into battle because that's what Damon's good at, right? So like get Damon out of the small council room. He's not being helpful there and send him out to battle.

Yeah. And if we had Jace around, send Jace out to diplomacy or something, like, surely, Bailey would be better at diplomacy. I have to imagine. You think Jaffrey's ready? Little Jop. Sweet little Jop when he comes back. You know, she tells Luther like, get him back.

He's my air now. Gotta raise him as my heir. Maybe he'll just be like I'm also an expert at diplomacy. It's possible. How much taller do you think he's going to be when he shows up? I wanted to ask you this. Do you think he's going to be just like I aged five to six years? He should be what, 13?

Is that right? And that Jofri actor was not even close to 13 when last we saw him. He was like eight or like maybe younger. They should age him up a little bit. Yeah. He should show up like Luke age. Yes. I think that would be good.

That would be good. And I'll just be like, don't worry about it. I'm prepared to not worry about it if it means that these children are finally the right ages, including some other words who I'm still waiting to see again. I'd like to give you an opportunity to talk about Lady Joanna, because Renera's like, I need you to send word to Lady Joanna and all the great houses. Tell them their queen demands tribute. Remind them who now commands the realm, and that'll be fine because, again, it went fine

when she talked that way to Boris Barathean in the season one finale. He really rocked with it. He definitely didn't say, go home, pup, and tell your mother that the Lord of Storm's End is not some dog she can whistle up at need to send against her foes. Well, fine. They're all learning their lessons and they're doing great. Lady Joanna, you've been waiting for a mention. You got one. Where is your thrill level? Through the roof. Lady Joanna Linister. She's Joanna with an H. Yeah, care to comment on the spelling.

Not my favorite. I get mistakenly called Joanna with an age often. You might say Johanna, some or Johanna people do, but. Visions of Johanna? Yeah. But Joanna Linister. I call her Joanna Linister in my head. Does anyone call her Joe? The way we call you, Joe. The Linisters have a lot of Joanna's in their family. It's true. Yeah. I'll never forget. What was that? Where was the meme of like, if someone calls you this, they're from this place and this, they're from this place. And that was when I realized that only ringer people call you Joe. Yeah. But then I was like, your Twitter handle is Joe wrote this. Can that be true? Yeah. It's a fact. Anyway. It's just something I think about sometimes. Yeah, it just comes up sometimes. But that's how I know. That's how I know people either met me here or post me me working here is if they call me Joe. Yeah. They call you Joe. We did it, Joe. We did it, Joe. We did it, Joe. Yeah, but Joanna Laster, there's not much I can say outside of the spoiler section. But you're excited.

But I'm excited. I really like her. Or while shares the her and all update that Damon has disappeared. No sign of vagar for days. The garrison was killed. The castell and his sons also slain. And Damon takes a moment to look really sad about Simon before then being like, any word about the hot witch with his wife sitting right there.

A barn owl, a goat. You have to take at least one beat before you tell on yourself in front of your spouse in this way. Like if why is from Nair or not like, why are you asking? Do you think this is why he's such, he's, he like nearly takes Oof's head off when he nights him? He's like sad about Simon Strong. That's a, that's a great read. That's a great read. And not just that he doesn't give a shit about Oof at all.

And also that Ollf is like, this guy would happily cut my head off and not think twice about it. Well, they'd be down a Dragon Rider. He needs him. I really liked Oltf's get up. His fit. His fit. Yeah. A little wonderful stuff.

He's ready to be a Targaryian. Let's go. I'm sorry. Absolutely not. Absolutely. Incredible. High comedy. Just so, so, so good.

Renira wants to send Baila out hunting. Later, she'll say send Adam to. But this is continuing the trend, and we have a moment elsewhere in the episode where Reneer and Bala passed in the hallway. No words are exchanged. But we are reminded that Reneera, first of all, in more recent storytelling stretch here,

clearly is like, why was it Jason, not you? Why did you not save him? There's obviously some tension and blame there. But also just the fact that even when Rainier has sent Baila out in season two and wasn't willing to send Jace out to scout, willing to risk Bela in a way that she was not willing to risk

Jace. So that is unfortunate and troubling. She says here that she'll give anyone who slays Aymond One Eye, Harrenhol. And this continues something we're tracking. Are you giving your supporters what they want and what they need? This comes up about

50 times in this episode. It has been a throughline of this season. Alice, who was so top of mine for Damon. Then he completely embarrasses himself by missing him here. She wanted Heron Hall. Wanted Harren Hall? Well, all she needs to do is bring the Mamon Targaryen. Well,

easy peasy. He's there. Was it a kidney? Kidney stab? Is that where the kidney is? That has to be very painful. I have to imagine that's a very painful place to get stabbed by a dagger. I can't believe he got got by a strong son. I do. I love it. This is delicious. This is

exactly what Alice was saying, right? Like all these people that are just like banding it about as a chip, as a carrot. You don't give a shit about it at all. Plus, it's promise to the phrase. Yes. Jace had promised this to the phrase. He did. They did let the Winter Wolves pass through the twins.

Yeah. What else had they done? Did they fight with the river? I didn't see them fighting with the river. I mean, canonically in fire and blood, they should have been there. Yeah. They should be in that fish feet, fish feed. Help me to craft those lyrics.

Did we see them? They just let some smelly old start. through the gate. That's all they did. Do you really deserve Harenhal for that? We had to make room for Black Alley to shine in that musical number. There's a rat in this stretch who scurries under Rainier's feet, and we're not going to mention every single time that a rat is present in this episode because they were a lot of rats. But we are going to note this one because this rat has a red apple core in its mouth. I just want to say welcome to the team. Welcome to Team Red Apple Rat. We're just thrilled to have you. Preston,

who, by the way, I definitely brought. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Is Team Green? Absolutely not. Well, I mean, sure. Okay. If you want to claim, then, sure.

Yeah, I'll let you have this one. The rodents love the green apples. It's yours. You just gleefully claimed a rat. I'm happy to... And I'm just saying our rat likes green apples. Our rat Preston likes green apples. I don't believe that's true.

It's true. Should we ask Sam Whitwer to come back and find out? A little walk and talk time. This is a stretch where everyone is just like... badgering Rainera, you need the queen's guard, put Damon on at the rats, are eating the candy, the candy, the candy, they might be eating the candy, the candle. What do we want to do with the Royal Bed Chamber, cost of wine, et cetera, great stuff. And then it's time for a scene with Alicent. Renera just charges into the room where Allison and Helena is and I was like, where

the fuck is the gold? Don't pretend you don't know. All right. Wild energy right from the jump, but also reasonable to ask. And Allison, here's what Allison does. Tells the truth. she says, I have no fucking idea. Yeah, would you blame me? When the Green Council pulled a coup, they didn't involve me. And that was the timing of this. When Thailand was like, I split the goal, it's divided. It was in season one, episode nine, the Green Council coup.

So Allison does not know. That is true. I would refer you to the man himself. This is of Otto. Like, what your dad didn't tell you? Right. But you slew him without ceremony, just dunks on him. Later in the same scene, Otto comes up again.

And Reneira kind of goes into the distance. We get the rush of the high-pitched, like high-frequency sound treatment. And that certainly struck me as a moment where, okay, are other characters observing what we're observing? It seemed like Allison was like, what's happening here? What are you doing? Are you okay in terms of Reneur's response there? And then Helena asked a question. Helena, who, of course, has lost a son.

Jay Harris, little J. Harris, blood and cheese, tough one. Did killing Otto make you feel better about Chase? So do you, like, I'm having trouble really nailing down what I think she means here. Is she like, hey, did that make you feel better? Would it, would I feel better about DeHarris if I killed someone or something like that? Or is it sort of like, I know it didn't? So like, in my spooky witchy prophecy way, I'm going to be like, you know. Because she did this.

I feel like, you know, when we first met Helena, she would just say her prophecies out loud to the bugs or whatever, right? And I feel like late in, you know, at the end of season two and now she's just sort of like kind of using it to fuck with people. She did with Amund, right? She's not like the most manipulative person or anything like that, but I kind of feel like she's, you know, she's not just saying her fun little like esoteric ditties anymore. She's just sort of like, did it make you feel better? I know I didn't. I don't know. I don't know how do I want to interpret it. It's, it was funny. Yeah, very.

Like, everything Helena does is really funny. I read it as a, I like that question and thinking about it through that lens. I read it as more of a kind of sweet and innocent, like, a student of human nature moment of like, did it make you feel better? Like, how do people kind of cope with their grief and all of the things that they're processing? Oh, like a little neurodivergent question from her? Just like, if we compare it to like to that one of those Eamon moments, the like, seeing Aeman looking at the throne and the like, really kind of like cutting, was it worth the price? Totally this felt different, but that does show us that it's, to your point.

Very totally different. It's in the mix, for sure. I do think it's interesting. Again, as we mentioned, this episode is not adapted from much that's in the book. And Allison and Reneira's relationship is wholly different in the book. But I do like that, like, you know, there's this line, Queen Allison was fettered at wrist and ankle with golden chains and this idea of like the queen and Helena in their golden chains, their golden golden fetters through this section.

So, like, seeing them sort of just like here in their chambers, doing relatively fine, not great. But Helena's like, I don't want to be in this room. And we'll talk about that a little bit more in the book spoiler section. But I, you know, I think it's worth mentioning the sauce she puts on like this room. For sure. I don't want to be here. Yeah, definitely. I like on the adaptation front that this is the kind of scene that like wouldn't have made the histories.

Of course. No one else is here. So that's really fun. What does she make on the kind of like studying Helene's? and how she's conducting herself. What did she make of just the look that, you know, when Rainer is like, well, I would have rather killed Egon, like your mother and I agreed.

And Helena's like, yeah. But she's also like, that's fine. I was not a fan. So, so, so good. Will you blame me only for what men have done? Allison's question. What do you think? What do you think?

Yes. Women will be blamed for what men have done. Can Reneera take a minute and really. Allison not in fire and blood blamed for what only men have done. And, you know, thinking back to the scene we so loved in the finale, Nera says this to Allison. Like, not about their relationship, more about the history. It's like, you're going to be painting as a villain.

You're going to be blamed. And Allison, that's queen, makes her necessary peace with it. To then kind of confront Renera with something that Renera understands as well as anyone. Like the differences in expectation of perception because there are women in a place. of rule. I thought it was a very reasonable point to make and savvy of her to do it. Yeah, I think both of their, because again, when Chris asked us that question of like what we thought Allison meant later when she's like, your father lived in a dream world that neither of us have ever stepped foot in, right? Or in not a dream world in a world or whatever.

And, you know, you and I were both talking about how we felt like that was kind of gendered, right, to say, um, the Saris as a man was allowed to be in this. Also, he lived in peace time. We live in wartime, all these other things. But it was, I thought it was really interesting. we got some pushback from people saying like, no, I thought they meant like, because Viseris like spent all day with his Legos or this, that, the other thing. And I'm like, yeah, because he was a dude. Because can you imagine if Rain, if the council had said Raynees, you are queen. You are the queen. You, the queen who never was. You are the queen. And then she built Legos. And she just built fucking Legos all the time. Well, yeah, but you rule. But like, she could not have done that. If she had no dragon and she built Legos all the time, they'd be like, what is this? What the fuck? What kind of Targaryen are you? What kind of leader are you? Yeah. She would not have been allowed to do that.

So Vassaris was allowed to be this sort of vacillating kind of sweet and gentle and remembered as a highly competent ruler. Right. Because he was elected by the council as a male ruler and then just sort of like not questioned. Right. And that's why when like Damon says the things that he says in this episode but across the series to date, it's like. He's the only one seeing it clear-eyed. You know what I mean? He's saying something that other people are not.

It's more than, more than, we have more respect for Vissaris and than Damon does, but. I love the Lego. But for Masari to be like, what would your, you know, honored father have done? Yeah. And it's like, well, why would we want to do that? Why would we do what Vassarist. Why the fuck would we want to do that? And I really value about the show, you know, because there was all this question about, like, the timeline of the show.

Yes. And saying, like, why did we spend all this time with, you know, these younger actors playing Reneera and Allison and all this stuff. It was so important for us to see what kind of. of ruler Vassaris actually was. That's so important in this moment. Because if we just had his legacy, then we would be like,

oh, good king Vassaris. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I really agree. And I think that's, it's paying dividends with all the characters. You know,

we have like the echoes of Vaman's challenge and what Corliss will do later, which we'll talk about later. But also like something like, I don't know, watching Damon so like nakedly dismiss needing to care for the citizens of, their realm. It makes you think back to something like the laundry list of council positions that

he like couldn't hold and wasn't equipped to hold. That's like, get him out of the small council chambers. He does not send him to the stepstones. Damon is, put him on, put him on triarchy mopup duty. Like, you know. Someone needs to be on triarchy mop up duty. Chris would be thrilled. We told him we were done with the triarchy. Maybe not. Make Damon high general supreme of the Targaryen army. He'd probably fly to Y-T and just like torch a bunch of people, you know. I mean, he can't wait to this like globe trot and I'll see all the sites. Damon. Wait, I need the camera for a second. Daman. Targaryans don't do well at Esos.

Ask me how I know. Okay. I mean, he's only seen certain glimpses of the future. He's like, that babe looked hot. Where is she? Where is she? Where is she? You mentioned your anise, and I'm glad you do, because inside of this Allison challenged for Nira, I was, we loved that scene between that sequence between Renice and Allison in the penultimate episode of season one. Right before Rainey's does something unthinkable and still to this day, let's just be honest. Disqualifying. Disqualifying for that episode of television. You can feel the effect of that exchange and that person and those words on Allison now, still, right? Yet you toil still in service to men, your father, your husband, your son, you desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall at your prison.

Well, there's the second part of that. Allison desires to be free, and everything that she's doing is to ensure that outcome for her, for Helena and for Jahera. But the first part, the toil still in the service of men, like, Allison has gone through such a journey. We love a character on an arc, of really interrogating how true that was for so long, of challenging auto. Like, how would I know what I wanted? You know, you never gave me that luxury. And so to say to Ranera, like, would you blame me only for what men have done? Yeah.

All it took was one trip to big bathtub. Yeah, she only cares. Now all she cares about is Helena. Jihara. She's like, feminism only. And like for like a minute, Darren at the end, but like not really. A little bit. And then she's like, let's throw this boy under the bus and also my own son under the bus.

An incredible shift in the span of 45 seconds of television from like, am I supposed to thank you for like sending him to the wall to, all right, I'm going to reveal very apparently that this is not the real Darren. She's like, I've got two people on my priority list. They're both women. I don't know what I don't know what to do with any of. of these other men. Sorry. Great stuff. This is where Allison mentions no one knows what Agon looks like. And says basically like, so I'm supposed to hope. I'm supposed to hope for the death and capture of my son, even though they'd agreed to this thing. It's different to have like the,

okay, I had to make this bargain, rip the Band-Aid off, and then have to be in this situation of like the slow pulling of the Band-Aid, hair by hair, piece of skin by skin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reneer, as I can only imagine, paired with something like later in the episode, like in the wagon carriage sequence with Masaria, like, I will look upon the people who took my sons from me. I will look at them. Yeah. We know what is guiding these decisions.

Let's talk more about Masaria. The to-do list is getting long for everybody. Masaria is one of the people who is not just working through the ship, but like inheriting some real responsibility, right? one of the only people who has Reneer's trust. Reneer tells Luther, Berkeley man gone dead. This isn't going to go well with the high septum. We'll get to that in a second.

Masaria swings in. And I loved this quick beat about, like, I've never been to the Red Key. It's both, like, larger and smaller. And it was so wild to, like, confront that. Like, Masaria, who's been around since the very beginning and, like, met with Otto and hung out with Damon and done all this sort of stuff.

But, you know, and she's never been inside the castle. No. Just brothels. You made it, girl. public tables where the cargels were able Everyone was able to observe everything I just thought that was like a fun kind of like Demystifying of the Red Keeper it's like

Oh there's this mythical thing with this standing And up on the hill but like you get in there And it's just at scale Rats all the way down A house to run and rats all the way down I thought that was really great It's a little beat And then Masari asks

I'm sure you can trust Allison High Tower What does you make of this? Is this I really care and I want to protect you Or let's get that wedge in there Yeah She's like Damon untrustworthy, Allison untrustworthy. You know you can trust me and also my girl, Alinda Massey. I'm sure it's fine. If somebody repeatedly said to you the only person that you can

trust is me, would that result in you trusting that person more or be like, why do you keep telling that's why I'm asking? That's why I want to know. What would it lead to? Would you be like, why do you keep telling me on the only one you trust? And I've told you, Mallory, my phone is bricked from 10 p.m. on. That's why I text you at 10.01. It's the first thing you see when you wake up. Don't trust Mahoney. Just kidding. We love Rob. He would be a great master of whispers. What do you think, what do you think Mahoney's small council position would be? Master of law, master of coin, master of ships. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I think so too. What about you? What are you? I don't think you can pick your own position. You have to tell me what I am. Law.

You love the rules. You're like, canonically, C-Smoke cannot have another writer, actually. I still really hung up on that. What am I? Well, you're the queen. But then, so can I be hand? Yeah. Okay, great. We solved it. Great. And then Mahoney can take care of our fleet.

Great. We can protect our ships. Fantastic. I think our realm's going to be great. It's going to be great. Rineiro brings up Darren to Masaria. You know, troubled, troubled by the prospect of having to kill this small child, who's my half-brother I've never met.

That reminds me, by the way, on the dame in front in the first, like, you know, we're going to take care of them, as we would all sons of Viseris. Damon, you're trying to kill these people and he knows it. Stop fucking around so much. Look what happened. I do love him. He's so great to watch.

He's fun. This is where... Did he kill breakout the murder cloak when he goes back to the veil? I hope so. Okay. Inspired our set deck. It's breezy out there.

It's blustery in the veil. You need a cloak. I still think that Allison could have probably asked Damon for a murderer tip or two before just heading out to Kings Landing and their very recognizable garb. Speaking of very recognizable,

Well, this is where Jace, the shade of Jace, Magen and death, walks toward Reneira. The very last. Down the hall. And we switch very quickly after Reneira sees Jace, kind of affirming what we've been saying. The impact of this loss, understandably so, is going to have a real guiding impact on the decisions that Reneer makes.

Goes from like, am I going to kill this kid into why should I not kill him after seeing Jase? I shouldn't I? Why should I keep it? Why should I not strike him as my own sons were stricken? So, that's worrying. You know, you pair that with something like later the like, you know, I can't get justice. Damon's like, justice will be yours. She's like, I'm not going to get justice, but the crumbs.

Do you think she was thinking about that when she was eating that cracker? She's like, ah, the crumbs. I had a real crunch to it. You need to be able to snack quickly and efficiently in the middle of a busy day. What are those crackers that are sort of like long and wavy? Do you what I mean? Oh, yes. Yeah, I do.

That's exactly what that. Those are good. They have like an Asiago cheese on them or something. They can. They can. They have to come different flavors. Delicious. Love that.

Is Reniero mistaking as many other characters in Game of Thrones and elsewhere have? Justice for vengeance. And is that something we should be worried about? Ooh, tough. Probably. Should we call Batman? Should we get our pass in? I will have vengeance.

It's worrying. It is worrying. And this is another moment where people are like observing something funky going on with Renira. The boy who she mistakes says Jace and then Masaria too, they're like, you just went into a trance. Like what's happening? This is always the observation, as you noted. And this is where she says, like I, you know, there's a lot to do. Let's question everybody. See if they're loyal to the high towers.

Masaria, do it quietly as only. You can. Only you can. I'm sorry. It's like, fuck yeah. It's working. Uh-oh. Is it working with Highsept in Balman, not High Sept and Eustis? It's not. Tell me why. Tell me why. It's not at all. It doesn't go well. Well, I thought it was really interesting this idea thinking about the faith and as political actors. Yeah. And this idea that Condal presented on the inside the episode that the faith are invested in the high towers who hold the seat where the star is in Old Town. Yes. So this idea of like, where is the center of power for the faith?

It moves inside of Targaryen history. But yeah, right now. But it's not just, I think, like, geographical, like, hey, we're both from good old old town. It's like, think about the makeover that the castle got when Alicent took over. Not all, but gone are many of the dragon orgy murals and tapestries and whatever. And up with the seven-pointed star, you know, and it's all over the place now. And so their prominence and their proximity to power grew and flourished under this Targ Tower regime led by the Greens.

Yeah. And so for Rainira, who married her uncle. Not ideal. And sort of flaunts this idea of the dragons in front of him, he's like, not you. So he's hiding behind this sort of like decorum of like, I haven't seen a body. You haven't called the Silent Sisters. what are you doing here? I just anointed your brother, you know?

But her brother wasn't the named heir, you know what I mean? Like there's many things that the faith have done here that is dicey. And so he's sort of like retreating behind. And the way the camera sort of lingers on his like 7.0 star medallion, all this sort of like that. He's retreating behind this sort of like this ceremony and all of this, this superiority. Yeah. When in fact, he's as much of a political animal as anyone else.

We don't know this guy very well, but, like, the faith themselves are political actors. Absolutely. They have an agenda for sure. I love the choice to set this, because, like, this meeting could have taken place in so many rooms. But to set it not just in the throne room, you know, the seat of power, but with those, like, statues and pillars of the Targaryen rulers all around them when there has been such conflict between the Targaryens and the faith. Yeah. I was thinking, too, I love the High Towers as, like, the good, believing family that is. perpetuating and propagating and

evangelizing on behalf of the faith, I was thinking back to like you clocking the second we got to see Ormond's beautiful armor that it is bedecked as well with like the imagery of the seven, right? Yeah. It's everywhere.

The fact that in the past, in the canonical timeline, the history of the Targaryens to this point in the story, there's been quite a bit of tension between the faith and the Targaryens. Uneasy detente. Quite uneasy, quite uneasy.

And something like, okay, you're allowed to fucky, other. It's going to have to be papered in as the doctrine of exceptionalism. We're going to make sure everyone knows this is not okay. And we don't think it's right. But you need to be able to ride your dragons, so we'll allow it. There's always been this tension between like what is holy and what is foul from the perspective of the faith. I think it's fair to say most people whether or not they believe in the seven. I think it's wrong to fuck people you're related to. But it's like hypocritical because they've thrown their power behind Agon who married a sister.

You know what I mean? You did? And I mean, that was part of Allison's hypocrisy, too, to, like, judge or nearer for that and their youths and then. But I'm just, like, for them to be so affronted and say your foul beasts and all these sort of things like that when I'm just sort of like, new regime, same as the old regime. Incessuous with dragons. No question. It's just the different blondes that you don't like because they don't care for you very much because they got married under like pagan dragon blood ceremony, you know? Remember the blood in the lips?

That's what I was referencing. Correct. That was wonderful. That was beautiful ceremony. It would have been great to be there. The other thing about the dragons, this is true and something we've been confronting inside of the Targaryan family, but certainly for the perspective of the faith,

they can't control their dragons. That's not something they can use or wield or bring inside of their power. So that's a threat completely. Obviously, now, yes, Agon and Amund have their dragons as well. And sweet Helena and Dreamfire, and both sides had dragons and the dance of the dragons. Dreamy! Dreamy!

Dreamy! The fact to... that like I felt like Reneer really kind of incited this reaction. The flame was there and then there was fuel added to it with the like a dragon appeared to be, am I not the chosen one? Right? Like did the gods not choose me and sanction me? And the high septant having to concede like, it has happened. It is true.

But like that's a threat as well to the doctrine of the faith. If a ruler can say, well, the gods have picked me and me alone, but also to your point. plenty of times where members of the faith would use logic like that to push their agenda. I thought it was really interesting the allusions to like blood magic and the blood mages. And this is stuff we've heard Vassaris talk about when he was like building his Legos and talking about the history and the doom and old Valeria and talking about like where the blood mages worked their craft. I mean, this is what the dragon orgy tapestries are about. Did they fuck dragons in order to make more dragons? And Vassaris was concerned and not everybody else was.

Yeah, not everybody else was. Bit of a bit of a source of a division between them. It exhorts and confers and binds together your people. underestimate it, it being the faith at your peril. This is the parting warning from high septimbalman to Roanier. Because Reneer is like, all right, I got it. You're not into this. This isn't going to work.

You're not going to give me what I want in an anointing, but you're not going to give me what I want more broadly, which is your support, right, and you're sanctioning. So this is set a couple centuries before Game of Thrones, but we've seen Game of Thrones. We watched the High Sparrow. We watched the faith militant rise again. There are plenty of examples from past timelines in the canon as well of the military manifestation of that conflict between the Targaryans and the faith. This warning is issued for a reason and it is issued with heft behind it. It's worrying.

It's worrying, Joe. Reneer did not come out on top of that. No. Love to see the Septans and the silent sisters and the members of the faith observing. the handing out of the food, which, you know, Masaria is kind of like boasting about it. This is, you know, fuck them. Like, this is your anointing.

But that's a purposeful choice to do that in front of the sapped where you know they're going to observe it. Is the outcome of that? Do you think it would have gone over better if Reneer, I've been like, hey, I dressed up as a nun recently? I lit some candles. Yeah. I snuck in.

I used your faith as costume. Do you think that would have gone over really well? I cosplayed as a believer just when it suited me. Yeah. And then not again. Yeah, she should maybe, maybe there's still time. to try it. Corlis makes his ask. What did you think of the vibes of this dinner? Okay, so I love this. I love the way this opens. Renira looks sort of like relaxed for the first time.

She has this whole episode and she's like, ah, I'm no longer being observed by a million different people. I'm not around people who need things for me. I'm with Corlis, my number one ally, Adam, who I quite like. Alan, who I'm meeting seems lovely. And like, let's just have a small, intimate, relaxing dinner. Then Coros is like, I have an impossible ask. You know, and she's like, fuck. You know what I mean? Like, I just thought that I thought the way that it started with her just being like,

let's just do it. Have this intimate, just us dinner. And then it's like, nope, you're still on the clock, baby. And he needs something from you. I love this. I thought it's, I think it's been really interesting to watch the fandom react to this because a lot of people, many people. people are saying, that for Corliss to have spent his entire life denying these young men

and then not give Rainer even like a minute to sort of process this. Is frustratingly hypocritical? But also is Reneer being a hypocrite in many degrees? Yeah. And he calls her out for that. But it's just sort of like what is Corliss's hypocrisy and all of this? And his urgency is my house is ashes. I got to figure out how to preserve my life.

Legacy. Yeah. Legacy. That was what I, I mean, the choice to so publicly shout bastards and the follow-up to the scene later, shocking stuff. In this scene here, I thought it was like so painful to like watch Alan and Adam sit there for this. You know, this thing that is in theory like for them. and is for them also, and I do think there's room for, like, many things can be true at once,

and Corlis has learned some things from his conversations with Alan about himself, about their relationships, has learned to appreciate them. But also, like, both Corlis and Renera in this scene are very much viewing this through the lens of their needs and their experience. I'm not thinking about Adam and Allen at all. Like, even, you know, when Corlis is, like, they've, look what they've done. Renera views that entirely through what Alan did for her fleet and her war in the gullet, Valerian fleet, but the fleet that has enlisted in her service. Adam, she's like, again, the proof that the gods have chosen me. It's all through the lens of what it says about her rule, right?

Corlis, when he talks about legacy and his line ending, it's like, that's not for them. That's about him. Do they also benefit from it? Yes, but it's about him. So, yeah, there's like that aspect of it. What does Alan want? What does Alan want? It's interesting.

I'm not a royalist. So I would not really see it this way. But like, Reneer having dinner with Alan and Adam and Corliss is like, they get to have a small intimate dinner of the queen on the first couple nights of her rule in the Red Keep. Like, that's a, sure. It is a gift of a kind. I mean, he's her hand, you know?

One of the Dragon Riders leader of the fleet. I think it's a point well made. that she is, like, granting them this... Intimacy. Yeah, the intimacy. I thought it was funny, though, to, like, kind of look at the... Because Adam is very much, like, oh, my God, it's my honor to serve you. Your Grace and Allen's like, oh, what the fuck?

Yeah. You know, they all have their own, obviously, like, relationship to each other and to what it means to be in these positions at all. Midnight cuddles. Renair can't sleep. Curles up with Damon. I love this. He puts his arm out for her. You're a Shakespearean image in the notes here of Ashton.

Once again, this haunted castle, Reneira walking around in her nightie and, you know, with the, in the candlelight. Yes. We got this email from our listener, Aden, who's doing a Shakespeare tracker this season and has decided to come up with, like, a line from Shakespeare to go with every episode of the season. And I would like to put this forth to our listeners and say, like, I would love other suggestions from listeners of, like, every week. Send us the Shakespeare line. Are people going to do this? I don't know. Does it feel like homework?

I don't know. But like the Shakespeare line, this episode most reminds you of. These are Aiden's suggestions for the first three episodes. Okay. Episode one. Blow winds come rack. At least we'll die with harness on our back. That's for Macbeth. All right, PJs.

Episode two, I'm in blood stepped so far that should I wait no more returning were as tedious as go or. Also Macbeth. It's a real Macbethy season, I guess. I know. To not do a Macbeth quote for the third episode, which was the most Macbethian is a twistier. uneasy lies the head that wears the crown is Henry four. Yeah. So very good. Great stuff. So I'm interested to hear what other people come up with. I, you know, thinking a lot about, I was thinking a lot about Banquo's Ghosts in Macbeth inside of this episode. And, you know, floating daggers and all that sort of stuff. So yeah. Give me, give me your best haunted castle, Shakespeare lines. Would you say that the bard is always welcome? I would. You're at the House of Bar. I would. Uh, less welcome.

Period cramps while you're trying to hear petitions. It's tough. Mood blood interruption here. Our girl, Linda, this is the return, helping when you're to prep to hear petitions. This is the snack of the cracker, but also those great details of like, should I wear jewels? No, what would that signal? The chain for gravity, the sword. Do, does that convey what we want?

All of those considerations. How many of them would a man in the same situation need to weigh? I mentioned Evita at the end of the episode, the Ruta Bagasine. very, I have a perone, but also like in this, this sort of like, I'm their savior. That's what they call me. So Lauren, but call me like, what does a woman in power have to wear like Christian Diormi? Like this, this, I need to be rainbow high. Like, what should I wear?

And like this idea of, you know, the somber gowns that she's choosing here, what are the optics constantly? If you were constantly being observed, what are the optics constantly? And they're different for women than they are for men. Viseras can like. No question. have half his body falling off and it's not a commentary, but if Rainira wears the wrong necklace, like, gives the wrong message. Some negative feedback from our listeners about this period plot line. Tell me.

You and I liked it. Yes. I did have, and I stand by that. I like it. I like it. I like how it was deployed. I did have a moment where I'm like, isn't this the whole, like, this is why we can never have a female president. She gets her period in, like, the red phone rings and she's incapable of doing her job or whatever.

Like, so that's on my mind. We got a lot of listener email, not a lot. We got a significant amount of listener emails saying they hated this because they felt like it was sort of like co-signing that in some way. Not that it was, but just sort of like a woman gets her period. She can't do her job because she's on her period sort of thing. And I mean, I don't think in it there's any definition that that's what Sarah Hess and Claire Kilner and whoever else worked on this episode had in mind. Right. I think it was more in line.

My interpretive is more in line with what you said on Talk the Thrones, which is just sort of like, here's the thing that men don't have to fucking deal with. And the connection that, you know, Claire Kielner makes to like the lactating in season one of just sort of like, these are the things that, you know, it's a thing that Alinda Massey immediately understands. Right. But not something that Reneer can share with any of the other men surrounding her as to why she can't hear petitions today. It wouldn't be, today would not be the best day to hear it or whatever. You know? Yeah. But Sarah's could be like, I need my maggot time.

Yeah. But Reneer can't be like, I need my moonblood time because it's just a different standard. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's why I liked it is because like, and I thought that the both like Sarah Hess and Claire Kilner talking on, I guess that would have been on the official pod about like things like things like this aren't often like written into stories like this or like acknowledged as like a part of life. And so like I liked that it was acknowledged as a part of life for some people, right? And, like, the fact that Renera, I totally understand that critique of, like, well, wait, what is the, like, whispered dipshit assumption of how that would affect you? I think the fact that Reneer then goes about the day and, like, has to navigate that. I personally really like, like, I have had plenty of fucking days where I'm like, I have really bad cramps and I feel like shit and I have to sit here and do a podcast.

And it's hard, but I do it, right? And then I text you complaining about it. So I- Well, you tell, I mean, this is the things. Like, you tell me, but you don't tell, like, all the guys who work on our show. Yeah. So, I mean, again, like, I think. With love and respect, guys.

Yeah, I just text show of that. I think everybody having their own, like, individual reaction to that in response to it makes complete sense to me. I think that's a personal thing. I kind of, like, appreciated it being present here and that Reniro wasn't like, and it's also fine if you don't feel all I need a day off. I'd do that plenty too, but wasn't like, I'm not going to go here petitions, just had to, like, all, because it was part of, it wasn't the whole episode.

It wasn't like, I had. I have cramps and that's the episode. It was like, people won't leave me alone. I can't figure out whether to kill Darren. Damon, who I thought finally got it. I didn't actually bring him to heal after all, right? The fate, they're not with me. I have to think about whether it's okay to even wear jewelry.

And I feel like shit. And the list is even longer than that. It was like in the mix with all of these other things that form a day, a week, a party. or mom is the part of your year. And I think, yeah, I thought the, I hadn't, like, I think I'd talk to Thrones. We talked about the, um, uh, the comp of Reneer being in childbirth, in labor in the

season one finale while the men were plotting in the war. Like, I remember at the time having a similar, like, oh, this could like, the read on this could be bad and wrong and this could be mishandled, but I thought ultimately the way the show like leaned into the fact that this would be something for Reneer, but also again, the men around her, like, the sex. second, she's out of commission for like even an instant, they move on without her. Yeah. Interrogating that actively in the text and like wanting to like. So she can't take a day off because what is Damon going to? Is Damon going to sit on the Iron Throne and be like burn them all?

Exactly. You might. But again, I think it's completely like I totally get why it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't work for some people. It is time to hear petitions. It is time to sit on the throne. The rats are also in the throne, which is tough. I loved, we talked on Talk to Thorns about the visual of kind of the of like the barbs of the blades of the throne. Yeah, encasing Renira in like this prison. The cut to the rat scaring inside the blade. Incredible. Grasping the arm of the throne. All of it just really, really, really great.

And like we've seen plenty. You mentioned earlier, Danny, hearing petitions in Marine. You know, we've seen Ned as hands hit the throne in hear petitions. We've seen lots of different characters over different episodes and shows. Here petitions. Certainly the comp that is most top of. mind is Egon hearing petitions. And an intentional parallel that they leaned into that they really wanted to set up.

Yes. You've got Corley standing where Otto was standing and doing this sort of similar sort of like. Not like that. Not like that. Not like that. So different. Agon did like he, he bit back at Otto. Yeah, he was like actually no, like we need to.

Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting to revisit that. But also Agon like, that was such like a great. shading of that character because Agon, who's been a piece of shit, his whole life, is finally like, actually, I want to do some nice things for the people. What if I could help? But oh, it's too late.

Oh, it's too late. I've been a monster and an asshole and I was never prepared for this. And my father made me feel unwanted. Now my cock is burst like a sausage on a spit. Right on a spit. Very tough. One of the people we hear from in this scene is Sylvie, who, as we've mentioned a few times over the years, issued that small folk-centric warning to Amund.

This is Amon's brothel, madam, right? when princes fight, the people who suffer are the small folk like me. The Amand Egan embarrassment at the brothel where Amin was like, fuck this person about Sylvie. A couple episodes after that. Was that why? Or would it always have happened? We don't have that clarity definitively. Sylvie was in the Alinda, Diana, Masaria team of planting those seeds, the whispers about,

they're up there in the Red Keep, partying, and chow on gourmet. feast while we're starving. Yeah. And Oelph was one of the people who was like, what the fuck? Yeah. Right? So we get that reminder in the scene, and that's the role that Sylvie played. It was not just a reminder of like, I helped. It was a reminder and what felt to me like a challenge, kind of a brazen challenge to Reneira. The people chose you and sided with you. Are you going to prove worthy of that choice? Are you going to justify everything? Also, I think it's what I love about the mess that Reneera is dealing with here. as any new administration has to deal with

when they enter the mistakes of the old administration. So like, why are there somebody rats? Because Agon killed all the rat catchers. Okay. That's Agon's shit that she has to mop up. But why is everyone starving? Because of your blockade. Dude, when Manderley was like,

maybe it's enough to have them forget that it was your blockade. I was like, this is just delicious. This is an intro. Yeah. But just sort of like it's both Agon's shit and it's also her shit because the small folks suffer when, you know, the rich folk play their Game of Thrones, you know? And so it's just sort of like, this is what's been going on?

Let me ask you this, because you said Game of Thrones. When at the end of the episode, Renera was like, what game is he playing about Ormond? Were you like? No, was that you at home? Actually, yes. Did he scare Adam when he said it? He was like, uh, yeah. He's really supportive.

He's great. He is great. Small counsel continuing to bicker. There is still a complete fucking calamity. This is the who is us argument between Masaria and Damon. And this is, you've mentioned you're not a royalist. It was kind of interesting in terms of Masaria's. It was so relieving.

What? Ew. To not have to give a shit about the Taylor Swift wedding. Oh, yeah. But watch all my old Vanity Fair colleagues have to like cover in detail. And I was like, I don't have American royalty. I don't have to get a shit. Got a real kick out of seeing one of our former ringer colleagues, Tommy Elter, walk out of the garden and his talks having attended the wedding.

Oh, good for you, Tommy. Incredible stuff. Wonderful. Um, Masaria's, like, arguing for democracy, but to further a dynasty. And I guess it's like, well, what choice do you have? Yeah. No better choice than that, I guess.

Tough one. What'd you make of Damon saying the order of things, invoking the order of things? Because that was such a key, like, Reignis, Renera, the order of things line. I like the recurrence of that. Using this logic that Renice had kind of positioned to, like, force Renéra to acknowledge the state of play. Right. And here, Damon is. Her husband, one of her, in theory, trusted advisors, is one of the only people in this room. Like, well, that's the order of things. The very thing that she's challenging is like, can you ever break the wheel really? Sunfire, long dead and decaying. Long in the day. So that's a mention here in this stretch. So we'll just note that and move on. Note that. And asking what Fassaris would do. We already talked about all this. And we talked on Talk to Thorns about the Laris.

like pursuit of Egon after the petitions in season two, episode one and that like difference. And Reneer here seeking that proximity to Viseras's legacy and Laris trying to get Egon to move away from it, to distance, to use it to kind of work him. And this question that it makes us think of of like, it's an interesting indicator and a character be, do you want to distance yourself from the predecessor? Do you want to try to claim proximity because you think you need it for legitimacy? Like what is required for you to try to claim?

legitimacy and for Rainira, to try to behave like Vassaris, who was a fucking dip shit, tough. The Nighting of the Seeds. A fantastic scene. We talked about this a lot on Talk to Thrones. It's so good. But, like, all of this is really good. Ulf Hugh and Adam are here. The, like, Ulf wanting to be a Targaryen.

Absolutely not. Ulf the White, Hugh Hammer, Adam of Hull. Of Hole. Really funny, really, really tough. Pain. But then also just like as we talked on Talk to Thrones, like the difference between this and other nighting scenes that we've seen across other West Roses shows. Let's get a little taste to that, Carlos. In the name of the warrior, I charge you to be brave.

In the name of the father, I charge you to be just. In the name of the mother, I charge you to defend the young and the innocent. Is that it? Sir. It's just amazing. It's not like every single glimpse of a nighting or story about a nighting has been like pure poetry. Like, you know, you can think of like Jora saying, oh my God, I thought I was going to like piss in my boots, right? It was taking so long. But there is at least always a sense of import. An occasion. Yes. Hemp. And like what does it mean to the person who's being knighted? Yeah. So acknowledge and all of that. And it's just sort of like bam, bam, bam. Percunctory. Absolutely. In the midst of the wreckage of, you know, them tearing down the old. and bringing up the new. It's horrible. And then we get Hugh Hammer kind of repeating his performance from season two episode one, when he was asking Agon, hey, you're going to pay me to do what I need to do? He's like, hey man, you said that I could have a living. My kid died and my wife

is off to Tobleton and I would like to have a life, a little work life balance. But I need to be compensated in order to do that. I'm like, I'll get back to you. I'm a wash and dilemmas of deficiencies. Very good line, really funny. But, um, hey, has this come up before this season? Are you giving your supporters what they want? What they need and what they want? Huh, what they ask for. Interesting. And what you specifically told them you would give them. Food for thought. Allison, back in the mix, comes and has a very reasonable ask, my father's bones. Can we send them home? And Reneer says yes. There's this little moment of like calm and humanity lovely. You feel all the history between them, Alison, even remarks upon how strange it feels to be back in this place. Do you feel like Allison was, I've seen some interpretations of this scene as Allison sort of like baiting the hook because she wants Roneira to like talk to her more. Like it's strange to see you like this. That was not my interpretation. Olivia Cook's performance was very much like, it's weird to see you like this by, you know. It felt more to me like just a really genuine like this is fucking strange.

This is fucking weird. This is strange. I'm used to seeing. I remember when your dad used to be in here making his Lego. And I remember when I used to have to fuck your dad. Yeah. A lot of history between these characters. characters, a lot of history. And Reneira, who cannot trust any of her own counselors except for Masaria, calls upon Allison's experience, says, I heard these petitions, you did this a lot. And what's so funny is I'm just like, this is exactly who you should be talking to. Imagine if Reneira ruled with Allison in her ear, during team, honestly, to me. You think the members of the newly formed Team Black small council would be into that? I don't give a shit. Renair is the queen.

You will do things that your heart would have coiled from before you came to the front. This is in the trailer a couple times. We thought she might be talking to Aemant, but she's talking to Reneer here. And this is exactly, these scenes is exactly sort of the thing we dreamed of when Roneer was going to take King's Landing. And Olivia Cook and Emma Darcy were going to be in the same place again. And it's like, okay, we get to watch them have scenes together. And those are always the show at its best. So I don't know how much, again, because they have, do not have this relationship in the books.

Right. Allison and Rainier are not besties. Besties behind the scenes or anything like that. But like what opportunity does the show have to give us Allison and Renira talk about what it's like to rule or rule as a woman or all these other things? I'm really excited for that. Me too. And what level of like how far will they both be able to push each other and still make room for this? Like Allison rightly is pissed. She's like we made a promise to each other. I actually held up my end of it. Kind of. Where's they gone? Well, sure. Yeah, but she's like, I get the guards on the parapet. That was an incredible pronunciation of parapet.

Did they not put down their swords? Yeah. Did I not get A. Where's they gone? Where's they gone? Well, that is exactly what Reniero wants to know. There was a clear deal. Yeah.

Bring me gone the usur. I mean, yeah, it was said with a lot of decimals and intention and clarity. also, Roneiro's just like outright. I had to respect the candor here. It's like, I can't really be seen to favor eye towers right now. That made me laugh. That was pretty funny. And Allison's like, really, fuck.

Come on. It's time to serve rats. Great stuff. Great little detail in the house the dragons built where they were like, oh, we had fish heads, and we had all these other disgusting bits of foul food. And then Claire Kilner came in and was like, just the rats and the gruel. Was it? Did they say it was worms?

Did they say it was worms? Yeah. They didn't specify maggot, but worms. Yeah. I really wanted to be like cuckoosa for Macheli or something like that. This is a beautiful like sprouts. Lovely. It was actually really interesting to hear like all those things are edible.

Like the beetroot and the, this is kind of, this sounded like a nutritious plate. If anyone has never watched House the Dragons built, this was a really different one because usually they're like, oh, and these dead bodies and how we're going to go on fire and all the of the bed of the citizens. We use and stuff like that. And this was much more like, like, gentle, you know, of an examination. But there were some gems in this one,

like one of the extras at the table who was playing one of the mid-tier ladies receiving the rat and being like, what the, like literally just like, the fuck is this? Really made me laugh. Very good. So the assembled, Joe, they're like,

fuck yeah. It's not just Corliss and Adam and Allen who got to die with the queen. Intimate dinner, I know. It is an honor. Personal invite. Yeah. And, you know, guess right?

Big deal in Westeros, this is going to be a meal to remember. Standing up, oh, I've always, you know, I always supported you and Reneira, like, ripping off these little barbs about, oh, I'm sure that's true, even though I don't recall you saying it. They're, like, not really clocking how Reneera feels about them and what is about to happen. And how could you, because how often would a brand new ruler just on the throne serve rats to be assembled? The worms are really a bridge too.

far, honestly. You were fine with the rat, but the worms, you draw the line. The rat looked like beautifully brazed, but a real, a nice, like a nice sheen, a nice crunch maybe on the skin. A glaze? Yeah, a little glaze. I just think that if the to-do list is this long and work is this stressful, this is efficient multitasking. You have a rodent problem and you need to like. Who caught those rats? I have some questions about that. That is a good question, actually. I loved this. I do have some questions about Torren Manderly. Me. Without getting into any spoilers about what we know about Torren Manderly in the book. Yeah.

If the assembled here are mid-tier, nobody gives a shit about them, nobles. What is House Manderly doing here? Yeah, and even just the geography of it. Yeah, exactly, because she was like, your house will be rated to House Manderly. Do they have a Pieditaire? The Piedater. Okay, so. You don't always want to be up north.

And Manderly Pieditare is being rated, I guess. I had some questions about that. So thank you. I'm glad you had the same questions. I was like, what is Torren Manderly doing here? And even like some people are like he's not sitting at the table so he's just observing that. But I don't think that's the case because he's like, yeah, I'm as deserving as anyone else here. She's like, we're going to toss your house too.

He's like, yep, my town home, for sure. I guess so. My brown stuff? Yeah, exactly. It's a double one. Yeah. But, you know, Dan Fogler's here, and Toura Manderly is here. I'm excited.

I'm excited. I mean, for Thrones fans who wanted a lot more of the Manderleys than we got in the original series, it's an exciting moment and the vibes were great. But I mean, House Mandurly is an extremely rich and powerful house. So I would not fuck around and find out with them at a rap banquet personally. But he seemed kind of tickled by it. That's also why he was like, I don't really give a shit about this. I'll be fine. He's like, go ahead.

Sack my townhouse. Yeah. Try it in White Harbor, see what happens. Exactly. Damon, he's also amused by this, Joe. Yeah. He's like, this is a gesture. It's not even going to make a difference. It's only going to cover these small folk who I don't even care about feeding for like a minute. Renera rightly notes, gestures matter, but yes, they need to figure out a more lasting approach. She's like, she sends them up to the veil. Well, one Ruta Bag at a time. We build back. When have you last consumed a Ruta Bada? I don't think I've ever had a rootabega. Should we make them? So, like, I mean, it's like a root, like, you would put it with, like, your parsnips and your... A root vegetable? Yeah.

And, like, in, like, a nice sort of, like, harvest bake. That's not how you spell that. Let's say, rootabaga. Ruta baga. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Hybrid of a cabbage and a turnup. Is that right?

Okay, yeah. You put it with a turnips. That's like the bullshit Gemini result, so who knows if that's accurate. Let's see. You would, like, you would, like, cube it up with some parsnips and some turnips under and put it under the roast chicken in the oven. and let the juices in the herbs from the chicken roast the veggies underneath.

That sounds delicious. That sounds great. How does a Ruta Vega pair with a rat, do you think? Hmm, quite well. I bet you could like, I bet you could puree Ruta Vega for a nice bed. Anyway, do you want me to roast a chicken and make some Ritabagas? That would be great.

In the fall? Not during the summer, I'll tell you that much right now. No, no, no. I thought that the, like, whatever poultry, whatever bird, Rennira, and Corlis and Alan and Adam were eating looked worse than the rat. By the way, I did. That looked, it looked gray and like gross. Oh, chicken feed.

That was one of the other things that they said, like, with the fish head was maybe going to be in the plate initially. But no. Rats and worms. It was really good. Rats and worms. Great stuff. Damon. You still don't know he are.

You've achieved so much, kid. You've come so far. You've fucked your uncle. You've come so far. No, you've done it, right? You're here. We're in the Red Keep. The war is ended.

He's happy to tell you. It's over. It's where he does the Dragon Math. The world is theirs. Here's what Damon has to say. You have an empire unassailable. And our children will rule it forever in a day. You stylists commandeers and maraudes like the pirates that plague us.

I star as gods. Are you concerned? You worried at all? The score sounded very optimistic. Like horror strings? Queer the horror strings. Very, very calm and mellow and hopeful. Can I tell you one of my favorite, like,

preseason press moments is Emma Darcy was relaying the story about how she was like, we had a lot of Valerian in the script and I had just had a sense that Matt had not looked at the script and done any prep. So I just texted him and said, hey, bud. Tomorrow's high Valerian day? This is our High Valerian. Oh, my God. I forget that she used some English school sort of like whatever, oral, like our high Valerian day. Hyvalarian oral or something like that, you know what I mean?

She's like, have you studied? Like, have you gotten ready? Had Matt Smith studied? He had not, but then he did because she said, or they said too. So, yeah, yeah. I find the Hyvalarian scenes just wonderful. And Damon switches to High Valerian to say, as the prophecy requires, the moving in and out of the common tongue in Hyvalarian, always delightful. They're just two of also my favorite High Valerian speakers. Emma might be my very favorite, actually. Yeah. It is, it's just, it is like, there's a kind of hypnotic quality. Yeah, it's very buttery and, like, rhythmic. But does buttery, like, buttery and the Ruta Bega puree.

Yeah. Delicious. Buttery parsnips are good. I quite agree. I love that Damon and Reneira are both in this godly headspace, but with distinction. Right. There is some, I mean, it's very worrying from both of them, but there is something different about the gods chose me.

Mm-hmm. Type of fanaticism and we are gods, which in some ways you could say, like, Damon is just talking like every other Targary. And like, if we go back to the beginning of the series, the like, test the Vanira issued to Renera. Well, I'm sure some of them are facing some of the Venera. Some Vina. Some Vina are Napa.

George R. Martin. Please name a Targaryenna. We deserve it. We got an anus. So a Veneerra, I mean, why not? Honestly. Honestly. Vanera Targaryen.

If we ever get that character, we're going to know, George Lissus. George, we're big fans. We believe in you, buddy. Drop winds of winter. and just write Dunkin' Egg. Please. We've been saying it. Please.

The, you know, the people say that we're closer to gods, but they say that because of our dragons. Without them, we're just like. Dreams. So both of these things are so in the mix here. Dreams did make us Kings, Dragons did. Now Damon's also a dream believer because of his hair and all trip. Well, one specific sexy dream. Yeah.

Fucking his mom. And also. Amelia Clark. And also seeing Danny, I'm sure he'd also happily fuck. Yeah. Once you're like, all right, we're kings, well, it's not much of a leap to say we're gods as well. But the kind of like the fact that the characters who are saying, aren't we just gods, I'd style us gods, aren't thinking, okay, the thing that makes us that dragons. This is where the dragon math being in this scene feels interesting to me.

They've lost three already. Our IPA, or X, Vermax and Maly's. The thing you're doing right now risks you losing the source of that power. the thing that allows you to say this and believe that this could be true? Like, where is the, where is the reflection? Yeah, and the caution. So calm, caution, reflection has always been something Damon has been famous for. I was going to say, I mean, that's obviously not really Damon's brand.

I don't know if it's amazing. I've already made himself a crown and just swaggered his ass into the throne room. I loved that Driftwood crown. I loved it. It looked great. And the short air is wonderful. He says with Viseris. He's like, what's made my piece with him.

We worked through some stuff at her and all. but he renounced his dragon. Renounced. And Renera says, I'm going to heed and take seriously the lesson, the words of caution that he shared with me about that power, about the illusion of control. What happened at the doom?

Still a source of great mystery in the canon. The doom of Valerian. The doom of Valerian. At the end of the day, whether it's an actual natural disaster, the cataclysm, whether it's that they doves too greedily and too deep, you know, whether it's, you fuck one dragon. I mean it.

Warring dragonlers, any of the possible theories in the midst. Vanira Targaryen and her dragon lover. Vanera Targaryen loved. Loved. Fucking her dragon. Loved. So many of the orgy murals feature all the mirrors. She's the stargary.

of the dragon origin girls. Oh my God. This is so good. The outcome is the same. The doom is a reminder of how fleeting it can all be. It's a lesson. It's an illusion, would you say? I would say, it's an illusion.

It's a lesson from Vissaris who fucked up and made a lot of mistakes that more characters than just Reneiro should be taking seriously. You still have to kill Darren. Okay, I'm going to go watch him sleep instead. A little wood carving. Yeah, it made me think of when she was with her little blonde babies and their little wood carvings.

Like how young this kid is. Yeah. But also do you think, do you think if he were a true Targary and he would be carving dragons only? Yeah. And you're like, a bird. That's a bird. Yeah. That's just a fucking basic bird. A bird. Now I love birds, as you know. But that's just a bird. Do I know that you love birds?

I've just been awed by hummingbirds recently. Just the majestic creature's incredible. You saw me once look at a pigeon and say nature. Yeah, that's true. Do you have a hummingbird feeder? No, I'm scared. I was talking to a friend of mine and I was like, I was thinking of getting a hummingbird feeder. She's like, you're going to give them hummingbird diabetes. That's what I'm scared of.

And also to keep, as I understand it, you have to really be on top of cleaning the like nectar feeder thing. And I wouldn't want to get, I would really be worried about making them ill. Okay. I'd be scared. It's a lot of pressure. But there are flowers that they come and they like. Yeah. She's like, you have enough nectar in the.

Natural nectar. Yeah, natural nectar. You know who's always chasing the natural nectar? Vanera Targary. Oh my God. Joanna. Speaking of bits that won't die, should we talk about Vamond? Anything you want to say first about Reneer are feeding the people?

We kind of already talked about it. I think we talked about it. We talked about that earlier. Let's talk about Vamon. I honestly can't believe. I can't believe that we talked about Vamon this much last week. I feel like we made this happen. It feels like we had a reason to do this.

Yeah. We didn't. We mentioned him seven times last pod. We've talked about the scene a little bit, but what have we not, what do we not hit that feels really important to discuss here about this challenge for Corlis. What I like is that this is not from the book. This is different from the book,

but it is a twist on something that happens in the book that I quite like it as an adaptive change, right? Quote. Quote. In terms of like, Damon and Rainier's really bright ideas of how to make friends and influence people after she takes the throne, right?

As it happened, each of the, quote, faithless friends left a daughter, Rosby's was made of 12, Stokeworth's was a girl of six. Prince Damon proposed that the former be wed to Hart Hugh, the blacksmith's son, who had taken to calling himself Hugh Hammer, the latter to Ulf the Saut, now simply Ulf White, keeping their lands black, as in team black, whilst suitably rewarding the seeds for their valor in battle. But the queen's hand argued against this.

For both girls had younger brothers. Reneer's own claim to the Iron Throne was a special case the Sea Snake insisted. Her father had named her as heir. Lord's Rosby and Stokeworth had done no such thing. Disinheriting their sons in favor of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precedent and call into question the rights of scores for other lords for at Westrose, whose own claims might be seen as inferior to those of elder sisters. And so Reneira agrees. And she's like, yeah, I can inherit, but no other women can inherit. And I love that section of Reneira triumphant.

And so here they're like, okay, my bastard sons are allowed. to pretend to be Valarians, but your bastard sons don't get to be Valarians, actually. So that hypocrisy. Corliss on the opposite side of the argument here. But I like this neat adaptive change because we needed something here for the story to needle Corlis. And so they used the same hypocrisy, but a different subject matter. And at the same time, it needles Corlis, which is what the plot needed here. So I like it.

I love that. I think that Reneira's relationship to the whispers of the realm is such a fascinating thing to track over time. Like this was such a source of insecurity and real active, like fear, right, for the claim and for her sons for so long. And then when it comes time to the sewing, it's like saying to Masaria, well then, let us raise an army of bastards because it's what suits Reneira in the moment, right? It's what Reneera needs in the moment. And so you think of like all the times that. Reneira and Reneas when she was alive and Corliss over the years have gone through some sort of trial. Oh, you guys think I'm responsible for your son's death. Actually, he just like escaped

with his boyfriend. It's fine, but I can't tell you that. So I have to allow you to believe this among other examples, right? It was always about trying to compel them back into her good graces. The fact that it's like the moment, and of course this isn't Corliss's mind, and he basically says, like, I've, like, never asked you for anything and all I've done is, like, stand up to support you and I don't think that's true. But everybody in an argument has to just say. The fact that it's after infiltrating the red keep and sitting on the throne, if this is two days ago, that's not how this conversation goes. There's just no way, right? And if it's frankly pre-gullet before high tide Burns and the fleet is in shambles, like all of it. So that I think, I think that Corlis

looking at that hypocrisy that you're identifying and the fact that it's not just what is right for Renera and what is right for him and Reneer's mind. And should Reneer be the arbiter and judge of that? It is literally a matter of royal decree to legitimize a bastard, but is that like right and fair? Is it right and fair when you are the most important ally to this person? And would it have gone this way if the circumstances were just a tiny bit different? I think Corlis's range is is appropriate to shout this in a public space and to obviously so purposefully in terms of the language choice and even just like cadence of how this was delivered mirror the Vaman sequence from the throne room in season one which led to Vaman getting his head chopped off

tongue lolling out like if Reneira had said after Corlis did this I have to like arrest you now or something like nobody certainly Luther Largen's not going to say like are you sure Right? But again, this is the Rainira thing throughout. Yeah. And I want to, I know you've assembled clips and I want to see them because our guy Vaman. Agai Vaman. Yeah. No half measures Reneer. And it's just constant half measures with Reneera. Oh my God. It makes me want to watch. Is that the season three Breaking Bad finale?

Or Daredevil. Or Daredevil. Yeah. Are we watching Breaking Bad or Daredevil? One of those. But the message no matter what is no half measures. Full measures only. Yeah. Carlos, let's see this clip. Her children. Bostards!

It is a matter of legitimacy. Your son Geoffrey is a bastard. Your son Luceris, whom I accepted as my heir, was a bastard. Lord Callus. Your son Gassaris lived and died a bastard. The number of people in the background of that shot who are turning and listening and clocking that... Genuinely insane. I've wanted to ask you this.

I haven't had a chance yet. Are you giving your supporters what they need? Do you think if she had said, would you like a Rutapega? Maybe it would have worked. Could have gone differently. I think what you said earlier is exactly right. Like, quiet, private conversation that's like, I understand why this is important and we'll get to that point.

This is not the moment I'm begging you for patience. Bungled it. Mishandled it. Brutal. But at least Darren's really Darren. And at least Ormond High Tower did not take Tumbleton with a dragon inside, right? Neither of those things happen. Everything's, that didn't, that's not how this episode ends.

We're good. Oops. It's the wrong kid. It's the wrong kid. Our listener Mikhail wrote this great email saying, in a Night of the Seven Kingdom, a show that happened earlier this year. That's not just some random guy. That's Prince Darren Targaryen in House of the Dragon. That's not Prince Darren Targaryen.

That's just some random guy. Incredible. Really great stuff. That's where the names recurring in royal fashion really pays off across these shows. I was thinking of our guy Darren the Dreamer because I was thinking about that scene in the Hunt episode in season one when Vissaris and Allison are standing in front of the fire. When I was watching Runeer, I stand in front of the fire here. That scene always makes me think of Darren the dreamer and just this idea of the burden of being a dreamer. I so badly wanted to be a dreamer myself.

Yes, Saracen his fucking cups hammered in front of a fire. What if you just tip-trane? Things would be better. They would be. I'm sorry. What if Allison had just been like, oh, jostled it? I'm going to just gotten some of it out of the way sooner. Right.

And then Renera goes back to camp, spattered in blood, and they're like, you're queen now. Then there's no civil war. Yeah. The end. Like, fast forward to Renera now needing to make some of these marriage packs and Otto from the grave. It's like, everyone judged when I suggested Renera marry that toddler. Everyone judged.

But now it's fun. Um, Allison, this is the do you, do you wish me to thank you? We're just going to send Darren up to the night's watch. Like, Reneer reveals that she has, Darren. It's not a terrible solution. Completely reasonable and would have been great. Would have been fine, but not what happened. Except they also had no plan for what to do with the dragon, which is just a, maybe.

Maybe, maybe. This question of mercy, because Reneera in the handing out the food, talks about being a merciful queen, Damon in the Ormond. scene talks about Reneera's clemency. This idea of clemency of mercy is really present throughout the episode as something that Reneera and Reneer's camp are saying out loud. Yeah. I liked this, Allison, like, am I supposed to thank you moment? Because the question is like, will your, and especially in Game of Thrones, Ned, Madison and mercy, etc. Will your mercy be received as such from the person on the other end of it is always so interesting?

Are you giving the people what they are most want or desire? I mean, Allison was like the thing I was fine with was you killing the other kid. Yeah. Kill all the boys. the girls be free. Kill the boy. Let the girls go free. You talked about the Sun Talk to Thrones, but the instantaneous nature of Reneer. Because Allison's like, that's not my kid.

But the immediacy with which Reneer can see that on Allison's face. She knows her very well. Now, to be fair, Allison was like. She wasn't. She wasn't, though. But she was a little like, Oh, boy. She was like, uh.

Yes, I've only seen him once or five years, but even I, even I know that's not him. So redhead. It was, it was great how quickly Roneiro was like, oh boy, something's a miss here. Forces him to reveal what happened here. We learned that Ormond did this. Thinking back to even Ormond in the opening scene, putting like a hand on Darren's cheek. It's like, now you think of that as like a menacing. Yeah.

Remember, I'll kill your mom. I got your mom. Scary, worrying. But tradesmen. We're in trade, right? Is that what he says? Yes. They're merchants.

They're merchants. The high tower callers, though, this is the good news. All the banners have been pulled down. The bedding has been swapped. Yeah. And Reneera orders a little burn them all. Yeah. Bedding edition.

And so we have that bonfire that you just mentioned. It's a very thematically rich backdrop for the Dragon Keepers arrival and the reveal of the taking of Tumbleton. Can I just go back in time to when we were covering the trailer? And I, I was thinking about that. Milted so closely at this bed to be like, whose bed is burning? Yeah.

Just some random fucking bed. I was like comparing, you know, bedposts. And I was like, it's not Viseris's bed. It's not Emma's bed. This is why you're the greatest. Just a random fucking bed. It was cool, too, the episode. Unshackle me from these details.

No. No. Golden fetters. Exactly. This is our version of that. The backdrop of like every. scene, you know, the banner's being pulled down and for it to culminate here. They're very satisfying. But it is worrying, of course, when Renera is like, what game

is he playing? What is he up to? Why, Tumbledon? And from somewhere in the valley you here, it's a game of that. Exactly. Now, when we did talk to Thorn and Zune, we watched on the screen or we hadn't seen the scenes for next week. One of the things in the scenes for next week that we saw watching this on Sunday night was Roneiro like, okay, I know what Ormond's up to. Tumbledon, like, raised my banner. They were loyal to me, and now he's tempting me into attacking a loyal city. Before we get that little glimpse in the coming on, the Dragon Keeper gives a version of that, which is like just more broadly about,

well, wait, it's not just the army that took the villagers hostage. What about all the little baby orcs in their little cradles? What about the women and the children? How can we not think of Danny? He's just going to burn all the innocence as well? in pursuit of the thing that you want. And ultimately, Danny goes, yeah. And it's paired here with Reneira very purposely saying, I will burn them.

And then the inferno paired with yet another. How many episodes have ended on this just really like incredible lingering shot of Reneira's face? We get it yet again here. Our listener, Aiden, on the dragon keeper front, said, The Dragon Keepers continue to fascinate me. Between this up and the apparent lack of consequences to them storming out of the red sewing, they seem to have some kind of jesters privilege to speak truth to rulers. I really liked that assessment.

They are just sort of their own thing. Yeah. I mean, if anyone's going to be able to get away with, like, challenging the Targaryens, it would be somebody in some position of, like, magical proximity to. But he's like, we're near a babe. You can't do that. You can't burn Doubledin. They're loyal to you.

And they're right next door. So Ormond has ensconced himself with a dragon and a dragon rider, a ginger dragon rider. leagues away. And bold John Roxton. Bold. John Roxton and a couple of allarian steel swords and Hugh Hammer's wife are all in the walled, you know, city of Tumbledon. I'm sure to be fine.

Right at the top of the mander. This is an adaptive change, but one that I really, really like. Book spoiler time? Let's do it. Okay. If you don't want to hear book spoilers, leave. Bye. All right.

Quickly, our listener Josh says during the book spoiler section of the pod, could you include what pages and fire and blood is adapted from? And I would say with the caveat that we are not limiting ourselves in this section when talking about book spoilers to just those pages. So you can't just like, I'm just going to say this to Josh or anyone else. I'm happy to fulfill this prompt right now, but I'm just saying we're not just only going to talk about these pages. That's not how we do the book spoiler section. It's all spoilers all the time. A clock, baby. But I would say around 494 to 496 is is isish what this section of the book is.

Yeah. Is. Also, our listener Chris has this great email I thought where he says, think back on Game of Thrones, I realized major events were triggered by characters making certain choices. Rob choosing to marry to Lisa, John choosing to let the wildlings south of the wall, Crastor giving his children to the walkers, Tywin choosing to let Tyrion be executed, etc. All the characters poking their toes in the ocean, not realizing the ripples they formed, would turn into tsunamis that would alter the course of the story. And then in one episode,

this episode, we get an entire series worth of consequential decisions from one character. Knowing how The Dance of the Dragons ends, I was enthralled to see how the show is setting up those choices to lead down certain paths, and I wanted to get your thoughts and how they handled that. So that's essentially what this spoiler section is going to be, is to be like, well, the conversation with the faith, well, yep, pissing off Corlis, well, pissing off all the mid-tier normals, you know, like all that sort of stuff is exactly. It's just, anyone watching this doesn't need to know book spoilers to be like, wow, Renaira, not doing great. Some bad outcomes here. I think of all of the, because there's certainly a lot of Corliss set up and a lot of Tumbleton to

betrayer set up. The thing that felt to me most undeniable in this episode specifically was the shepherd set up. I think that the, some of it is just the scene with, you want to say who the shepherd is. So the shepherd, and we had like a little bit of a moment with a, you know, chopping off of an arm during a riot earlier in the series. We're like, is this a little wink to the shepherd coming? So the shepherd, the storming of the pit, basically season, I think we can safely assume, season four plot lines, because like late in the book. A figure who, you know, arises and amasses the, in a kind of high sparrow-esque fashion, the legions of the citizens of King's Landing who don't feel like they have what they need from Renera and the ranks

swell very quickly and gives speeches in the public square. And a lot of the language choice is like specifically stuff we heard from high sept involvement today, this idea of the profane magic and these related people fucking each other. dragons, the incest, all of this Targaryian exceptionalism stuff, being very publicly spun to say, why is that a thing that we're worshipping and supporting instead of rallying against? And the events that the shepherd and the shepherd's presence and burgeoning support triggers, like include events such as the Storming of the Pit and Joffrey's death. So the Starring the Pit is like a bunch of dragons die. Like all the dragons that are in the dragon pit die essentially. So like, yeah, huge. I think the

two betrayer stuff is really, really good in this episode. I think it's great. So, like, I love your point that you wrote here in our notes about, like, Ulf and Hugh get to, like, see the high tower forces. So they've, like, at least clapped eyes on Ormond. We don't know exactly how this is going to go, but Ulf and Hugh, in Tumbleton, the attempt to take Tumbleton will flip. Yes. Dragon Math, Rutrow. Right. Disaster. Absolute calamity. Okay. So for Or Ulf to be like, hey, can I have some respect the name Targaryen, a castle, something, and they're like, no, lick my boot, you dumb piece of shit. Yep.

And then Hugh's like, hey, my wife's in Tumbledon. And I just need a house. And I just need a house. And I can get my wife. And then she's not in Tumbledon anymore. And then maybe I'll burn Tumbledon for you. But like, Hugh Hammer's going to flip for a different reason. Yes.

Because he can't get fucking paid. And his wife's in Tumbledin. Right. And Ulf's going to be like, guess what? I wanted a fucking castle and a little bit of respect. Yep. And pure of heart, Adam is loyal to the very end. I think that the fact that even just like Ormond got to basically hear Damon say, oh, you want a castle? Oh, you greedy fucker? You want a castle? I'm going to keep like

mocking you about how you don't have. Maybe Orman can make a more direct appeal. Yeah, Orman can be like, hey, you want a castle? Yeah, I'll give you a castle. And guess what? It'll be in the fucking reach. How good does that sound? Wine for days. Arbor gold, baby. In general, I think the old. and Hugh set up has been really good for a long time in terms of us better understanding how a thing like this could happen. But this really felt meaningful here. And I like that they're, as we've said from the beginning, I like that they're different. Yes. Like if Renera orders them to attack Tumleton, Hugh is not going to burn a city that his wife is inside of. Cat, she has a name and we

know her, ish, if you say so. Um, Joanna Linister. Tell me. And the Grey Joyce? Yes. Yeah. Okay, we got an email about this. Ash said the offhand comment made about Joanna Linister was interesting, a character who makes her descendant Taiwan look like a kitten. We see no casting confirmation for Joanna the season, but she'd be a welcome addition to season four if there's time to do her story justice, along with Jane Aaron. She's another great foil for Renera in this age of female rulers. Dulton Greyjoy. What's going on with the great, like, what's going on over there with the Lanster and the Greyjoy's is like super interesting. It's a complete side plot, but it's very interesting. They could not do it at all if they want to. Yeah. Or they could

do it next season if they want it. That would be. be fun. We could also just get a kind of like a couple mentions that plant the seeds for like, now there wasn't room to definitively say what happened with Tissarion in this episode. So maybe there's not room to be like the Red Crack and Attacked Lanosport. But like maybe there is. It would be fun. ADR it off screen in a small council meeting. I do love that the team green, uh, small council whiteboard is still in effect. I know. That's so good. Yeah. Um, Helena. So I feel like the, the, the, not wanting to be in that room because she's seen her death

via those windows? It's entirely possible. A lot of people are saying on the internet and have written into us saying, does she not want to stay in that room by those windows because that's where Tom and makes his King's Landing moment? Brutal, but amazing. God.

I will not deny that the, that the shutters are similar and the dual pillar thing is similar. But like these could or could not be the same windows. There's so much time between these two events. So they could have redecorated, but there's enough differences that I can't say it's the identical window. People are like, the view is the same.

I'm like, it's just half the windows on that side of the castle have that view. What are you talking about? So much more likely to me is not Helena knows that Taman. But I wouldn't be surprised if she decides to die herself. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if they shoot it intentionally to look like Tomlin's death. I would not be surprised at all. And if they intentionally designed these windows to be evocative of that moment.

I think that feels right. Corlis. So, boy, this is heading toward a grim place. It's tough. God, I think that this is an interesting, because they do become valerians in the book, so maybe that still happens in the show. It should. I guess the question is.

Coralus is like too little too late or something like that. How big is the rupture at that point? The fact that this chasm is opening between them in this episode because of his sons, right? Or in relation to how Adam and Alan are part of that. Thinking about, you know, there's a lot that goes wrong for all of these characters, but a really, really like, oh boy, there's very little we can do to come back from that decision moment is like siding with Adam over Renira. right? So this feels like an important setup inside of the show for that decision for Corlis. Yeah. Which I'm excited about. Me too.

Blood on the throne. So we had a lot of emails about this, but we trust me, we were already all over this, I promise you. Which is like for both of us, as soon as Rainer is like, oh shit, I'm bleeding as in as my period, we were both wondering if this is how they were going to do the scene in the book where Renira cuts herself on the thrown and there's drops of blood and people are like, oh, she's cursed. And if they're like, oh, she's cursed and we're like, no, she just has her period. God damn it. Men don't understand how things happen or whatever. Because she bled through or something. And I was like, is, are they going to do that? I wasn't sure how I felt about it. But in the moment, I was like, and then they didn't. And now I still really feel like maybe they're not going to do it at all.

But I was, we all had that moment and we're like, is this? I know. And I was like, could you, like, what could you mistake? Because like the trail of blood, sure. But there's a lot of specific, like cuts on her legs, but did they just think there were cuts on her legs? Because there were droplets of blood. She had blood coming down her legs. Yeah. But then there's like a specific like hand cut stuff later from clutching the arms. So maybe she'll cut her hand later.

Yeah. I still feel like they might do it. But I don't know. Who knows at this point? So the gold. Your guy, Tyler Lannister, is coming back because he's got to get his eyes poked down his dick cut off. So we can find out where that cold is, right? Maybe.

you just really want that to happen. You're like, this is why I insist he can't die. Yeah, this is like a lot of my, are we done with this character stuff has to do with them getting their dick cut off? Like, Keltygar? I'm like, can we really even get Keltycar? That guy's got to get his dick cut off

and his head cut off as well, both heads. Do you think they're just, are we done with Keltygar? Is the Keltagar, is the Kunt tax gonna be like, is another character going to do that? It feels like Keltygar is not coming back in the story, right? That's an interesting choice. I guess it doesn't have to be him. That can easily be.

Someone else can pick up. that plot. Interesting. What else? Um, Toram Anderly. Yeah, this is fun. This is fun. So he's very important to the, the regency. So this makes you hopeful that we're going to get, like, a lot of post-Renera death stuff. I don't know if it'll be a lot, but I just still, yes, I think we need some. Now are we going to be like, what is it like for Toran Mandirley to be like a hand? Probably not. But just like, that he's one of the guys who's going to be around. He, yeah, bringing him in early-ish in season three So that if there's like, like, let's say he and Reneera actually like get along, like, because he seemed kind of friendly to her. So what if they like get along? And so there's someone after her death who like supported the Reneira regime. Yeah. And is here to look after her kids. That would be great. And make us feel better about the fact that everyone else is death. How will he know who her kids are if they're never back in the show? Any of other book spoilers. You could blench the hair of any old kid and say, hey, look.

Boy. I don't think so. Did we do it? I think so. We got it. All right. So she picked off, she pissed off the faith. She pissed off Corlis.

She pissed off the mid-level nobles. Yeah, it's tough. Allison's around to maybe give advice. And even though she's helping the small folk, there's a lot of like, for how long it is this enough. And like. Helena's being cooped up and not given her chickens. Masaria is getting more and more powers, more and more influence. And if it serves Missari's end to continue to stoke Reneira's paranoia, stoke it she shall.

Yes. You know? And again, I'm worried about, I don't, I don't, I'm worried about Linda Massey being like right there. Yeah. You know, Masari and Alinda like gave Reneer kind of the only wins she felt in this episode. And I just feel like that's so dangerous to be just like, now she's just going to be like, okay, they made me feel good. So I'm just going to continue to be under their influence, you know?

I'm concerned now, too, now that you've planted this seed. I don't know. But then I think it's also interesting to think about, well, what is, is it even more tragic if, like, Alinda is actually sweet loyal Alinda? Oh, like Adam. But the paranoia is so... Like an Adam situation. Yeah. It's so crippling at some point.

Do you think we're tipping our hands by constantly being like, Adam, sweet Adam, he's done nothing wrong. He's so great. Probably. Yeah. We should be a little more circumspect about that. Oh, what a fuck up. But Adam can do no wrong. I need to watch that.

We did it. Thank you. Thank you to Carlos Chiroboga. Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Ramga Powell, Jomea, Denneron, our squad. Please join us on Sunday night immediately after. Talk the Thrones. Talk the Thrones. With a special guest. Double drop list out on Monday. Sorry, we regret to not be able to occur. Say it. What else next week? Oppenheimer and Odysseus. Appianati Every second counts here at the end Bye