House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the fourth episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, "Tumbleton." They discuss Daemon discovering Rhaena’s secret, Alyn’s new responsibilities, and the rising tensions in both King’s Landing and Tumbleton. (00:00) Intro (07:10) Opening Snapshot (26:44) Opening credits update (28:37) Taking over Tumbleton (34:23) Bath time with Ormund Hightower (46:35) The black council considers the Ormund conundrum (54:46) Rhaenyra seeks Ormund intel from Alicent (01:06:58) Corlys grants Alyn his seat (01:11:01) Aegon and Larys find sweet Sunfyre (01:19:59) Criston and Gwayne reach Harrenhal (01:29:43) Alyn and Rhaenyra bond (01:33:23) Aegon and Larys reach Rook’s Rest (01:33:40) Turmoil in Tumbleton (01:41:11) Hugh implores Rhaenyra to send him to Tumbleton (01:42:48) Ulf’s graffiti stroll (01:45:23) Kat’s family appeals to Ormund (01:46:57) Rhaenyra consults Orwyle on the Faith (01:54:03) Daemon treats with Lady Jeyne (01:57:57) Daemon discovers Rhaena’s secret (02:11:14) Ormund’s meltdown (02:16:28) Ulf’s request (02:27:36) Aegon kisses the boot (02:30:07) Daemon gifts Rhaenyra … a charred head (02:38:05) Oh boy, Helaena is pregnant (02:42:51) Ormund forces Daeron to bloody his blade (02:50:06) Book spoilers! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott Lee Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, you should know she's the clever one, Manderly. It's Joanna Robinson. Hello, my darling. Hello, my dearest.

I'm so excited. This is my favorite thing to do. Talk to you about Thrones. What a joy. What a delight. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here with you today. Thrill to have the bad babies with us. We are here to dive deep, deep, deep, deep into somehow already the fourth episode.

What the fuck? Somehow already halfway through the season. Of season three of House of the Dragon and we're going to get to it right after this. Volvo is leaving the chaos of rush hour outside. Start by settling into your saddle-stitched Napa leather seats. Notice the open space around you. Uncluttered, elegant. intentional, warm ambient light, and natural wood details to ground view.

This is Volvo's Scandinavian sanctuary for every journey. Learn more at Volvocars.caps.caps optional features mentioned. The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. We are thrilled to share that the Ring of Verse team, the Midnight Boys Pew, Poo, and the House of Our.

We'll be returning to San Diego Comic-Con this July. We're kicking off on Thursday, July 23rd at Whiskey Girl for a Ring of Reverse. fan meetup, no badge required. We'll be there for an hour or so starting around 630, so come say hi, grab a drink, celebrate with us. And then, on Saturday, July 25th at 1030 a.m., come to our panel. Comic-com badge holders can find the Midnight Boys Poo-Pew and the House of Our. Correct. In Room 5A.B on the upper level of the convention center for a ring-a-verse supergroup panel. We're going to be discussing the franchises that have dominated nerd culture this year and taken stock of what's to come. So whether you're local to San Diego or in town for Comic-Con, we'd love to see you at Whiskey Girl on Thursday, or if you're a badge holder, join us on Saturday, July 25th for our panel.

See you in San Diego. Okay, here's what we're actually getting to. Programming reminders. A couple updates. This podcast is coming to you a day later than usual. Thank you for your patience. I have been, to quote Logan Roy, incredibly unwell. I still am. Not contagious, but I'm going to do my absolute best to. Today had to push one day. Very sorry. The ripple effect of that is that we are not doing the Oppenheimer pod today as we were supposed to. When will we do that? Guess what? Not before the Odyssey now. We are just leaning into the nonlinear storytelling. I was about saying this is how Chris Ron Nolan would want it. As fully as we possibly can. We love a bit. We love a bit here. But I do think it will be really interesting to talk about Oppenheimer in the wake of Odyssey.

You and I had talked about this as soon as we got out of our first screening of it, we were just sort of like, wow, Oppenheimer. Yes. On the mind. Both from the storytelling perspective and then I think actually to come back with a period of time where more people have gotten to see Odyssey. And we can also just talk about the Uthra and like where do, because, hey, I don't know if you, if you all have heard. Oppenheimer won Best Picture, won all the Oscars.

So like, you know, now that we've seen another master work. Hmm. Where does it rank? Where does it all rank? Where is it rank? We love a list. Is this all just a long con to have more time to figure out our? personal power rankings. Who can say? What's to say? We will be potting about the Odyssey in just a

couple days. We are very, very, very excited. I could not be more excited. This is like, same. I know I just said this is my favorite thing, which is true, talking about Thrones with you, but like talking about the Odyssey. I would say there's a dash of our Thrones in the Odyssey. Oh, more than a dash. A healthy poor, I would say. A very healthy poor. We will, of course. Who's a reliable narrator? That's the theme. Incest was the theme of the summer. Now I'm pivoting to who's telling the story? And do we believe them? I don't know if you can pivot.

I think you have to hold that all at once because we're probably not done with incest. Let's just be honest about it. Okay. Speaking of, we will be back for Talk the Thrones on Sunday night for episode 5 of House of the Dragon. C.R. will be back? The question is, will you be giving back your Oakland A's hat?

Will you be giving back recap duties? Your Oakland A's hat. Do you think C.R. is going to walk in and say, bring Agon the usurper to me. Thanks for everyone for their kind words about my CR cosplay. The adoring public. Genuinely loved it. Appreciate it.

But the master's back. I'm really excited for Sierra to be back for episode five. It's also somehow Lestat finale time. So we will be covering the final episode of the third season of interview with the vampire, the vampire Lestat, top of next week. And then we're going to Comic-Con. We're going to be at Comic-Con. The Midnight Boys Pew Pugh are going to be at Comic-Con.

Thursday night meetup You don't need a pass. No badge required. Come to the meetup. Whiskey girl. Details are on the social handles and probably an ad break that you heard like 45 seconds ago.

But I like to give the authentic in real time here and just the flow of conversation among friends. Spongone. Harder to skip a Bigton ad. Panel. Saturday morning. Correct.

Do need a badge for that. But we would encourage you to get one and come hang with us because we don't want to be embarrassed by an empty room. Fill those seats. Yeah. We're in the main convention center this year. I know.

We're moving closer and closer to our ultimate goal, which is clearly filling hall age. When will we be in hall age? Yeah. I mean, you were in hall age last year. Not in this capacity. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh, my God. Great question.

Why don't you just subscribe to our freaking podcast already? I mean, that's a thing you could do. Why not? For real. Yeah. Follows on socials at Ringervorverse at House of Our Pod on Instagram and TikTok. Watch us on YouTube or on Spotify. Wherever you like to watch your podcasts, you can see the beautiful shade of purple that Mallory is wearing today.

And then last not least, Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com, we got so many incredible emails. Some good emails this week. I put almost all of them into the notes. Will I get to all them? I'm not sure. because there are only so many hours in the day. But I just wanted you to be able to see them all. Delightful.

And we'll get to as many as we can. Just like some real great deep thoughts and thematic connections from the bad babies this week. Just incredible work. As always. Some good theories, too. Oh, yeah, some fun theories.

That brings us to our spoiler warning. Same as always. If it happened inside of the fourth episode of House of the Dragon, Tumbledin, we'll be talking about it, beat by beat, in chronological order, as we go through the deep dive today. If it's ever happened in House of the Dragon

or any other episode of Game of Thrones television, and it could come up today. Book context, canon and lore from the world, sprinkled as we go, but anything that's from the future in the canon, that is going to be

in a separate book, look ahead, book spoiler section. At the very end of the podcast, you will get another warning, both from us and from Carlos' lovely sound effects. Correct.

Before that section, if you want to hang around, great. If you don't, you'll know when it's time to go. A chunky one this week, I would say. There's a lot to talk about.

There's a lot to talk about. Anything else on the programming reminders front? I don't think so. Did I miss something? No. Let's do it. I think we got it. Let's get to the opening snapshot.

Okay. Episode 4 of Season 3, Tumbleton, 62 minutes, written by David Hancock, who previously wrote the third and seventh episodes of season 2, which we quite enjoyed, listed us the co-writer for the impending episode 6 of season 3 as well. So that's exciting. That's something to look forward to. This episode was once again directed by Claire Kilner, who has not only directed now three episodes in a row of season three, but by my math here, by my count, has now directed eight out of 22 episodes of House of the Dragon. So more than a third of the series.

And well ahead of everybody else. Everyone else. I went back and did the count. I think four is the max that anyone else is done, right? Sepachnik, Greg Yutanis, and Gita Vassan Patel, I think each had three. Three. Three. So no one's done for.

Wow. That's even close. Claire, killer. That's what we should call her. Anyway, she's amazing. Another great episode from her in the behind the scenes or the after episodes. No, how's the dragons? It was really fun to see her talk about filming inside of the throne room and the Erie.

And so I went back and rewatched it because she was talking about where she wanted to place the camera and how she had like a circular track. And so watching that throne room scene, thinking about how. how intentionally she placed the camera and thinking about moments like Damon leaning over the moon door to say like your warmth about Jane and and the cameras inside of the moon door. You know, she shot him from like, you know, so like just where she plays. Do you think they time traveled and put a GoPro on Liza's head? Is that how they hope? Is that how they achieve that shot?

You think Liza is just suspended in midair? With a GoPro owner head. To help with production, is it possible? Yes. I like to believe. If anyone could do it, Claire killed it. As I told you, I'm barely hanging on today. So these are the kinds of questions you can look forward to over the next three hours.

Get excited. Did you, I also struck just, and this, like, of course, is intuitive. It makes sense. But you think about inside of a television series how rare it is. Like, hearing Claire and her team talk about getting to film in an arc. Getting to film multiple episodes back to back and what that opportunity afforded, not only to think about the continuity across the narrative in those episodes, but the work with the performers, the use of the settings and scenes. I thought that was this like an obvious thing when you think about it, but you can feel the impact of that, I think.

I don't want to like slow production down. And if this will slow production down, I don't want that to happen, obviously. We simply cannot slow down production on the House of the Dragon. But like Claire Kielner, for every episode of the final season. It seems like she doesn't, and I choose to believe this is a choice on her part and not that people think she can't. She doesn't do battle episodes really. And so. It's going to be hard to do all the season four then. Right.

Which is why she's not on episode one and she's not in the back half of the season, which seems like it's going to be like wall-to-wall battles. So she seems to like, which is why we respond to our episodes so much because, you know, Gwain and Kristen Cole sitting at a table talking in a room, I'm like, yeah, give me that shit. That's right in my veins. That's what I want. Wonderful. I don't know where we're going to find space for Claire in season four, but I demand it. I agree. Claire will be back and we will be thrilled. Joanna, in case anybody missed your CR impression on Talk to Thrones, first of all, go check it out, and then just watch all of Talk to Thrones while you're there.

What does you think of this episode? Give us your quick table setting take. And while we're at it, because it is the midway mark, how are you feeling about season three overall? Well, first and foremost, I would like to apologize to Vagar for misgendering her on Talk the Thrones. I really, really, really do apologize. Talk about doing a CR impression. Yeah, it was a method way of looking like I didn't know what the dragons were. So you're welcome. So my apologies to her and her family and her team. And I loved episode four.

And the more I think about it, I've had more time than usual to think about it. The more I think I liked it even more than episode three, which I loved, again, we talked about like conceptually. I really loved the execution of episode three. I think like formatively. I think that was just such a really interesting choice. But as I said, I am so compelled by the Ormond Darren stuff. It's like the most emotionally engaged. I think I've been all season.

And so I do think this episode is so important for pulling that off and giving us just like, I'm just so all in on our poor boy, Darren, with very little time. And that's an impressive achievement. So, you know. Or like scenes like Helena's pregnancy, which is revealed with one word of dialogue. Helena. Her name. That's it.

You know? And a tug on addressing them. It's great. It's, yeah. So I loved this episode. I really did. I also thought this episode was wonderful. Ormond is just an incredible first season character here.

I mean, really, really excellent. I agree. I'm quite compelled by Darren. And an interesting of two mindsway where it makes me wish that Darren had been here sooner as I had wanted earlier, but also the kind of thing where maybe the time that we waited was worth it because it's such an effective moment and way to introduce them into the story. So, you know, I do find myself thinking about how little total runway is left, four episodes this season, by all accounts, eight next season and the final season. And getting quite sad that we only have 12 episodes after we talk about this one. We've got 12 episodes plus two hours and 56 minutes of discussion about this episode.

Plus the full rewatch who will do of all the seasons before the final season. Let's not forget the eight to nine total hours of trailer breakdowns we'll do heading into season four, etc. Some bonus pods along the way for sure. But yeah, I think that this episode, you know, obviously across the season already we've gotten not only a big battle, a gullet, but like, you know, Rainera taking the throne in episode two, that's not a battle, but is such a seismic, massive, monumental pivot point in the story and moment, and certainly has set piece aspects and quality to it. We had that structural and stylistic experimentation in episode three.

And this episode in many respects, I think, feels more traditionally thronesian in its flow. But in a way that I find, like, quite welcome and, like, sinking into, in an Allison's and Ormond capacity, a very warm familiar bath where I would just really love right now. Oh, that was your warm bath. That was your own bath pantomime. I was like, what's happening right now? I, uh, all the locations, all the characters, the blend of tone. Did this happen on Mike for Talk to Thrones or not when Van asked us if he thought this season was more thrown?

Like that they were given a mandate to do something more Thrones. Yeah. I think this is off mic. Off mic, yeah. But I immediately agreed with him. And we've been talking around a little bit. But I think that, like, is it seeing a very recognizable set in the Erie, which they sort of like painstakingly recreated from the Thrones era? Is it the uptick in humor?

Yes. Is it sort of this lean into, I don't know how to describe that it feels so different from like blood and cheese, which is this, like, shocking thing that happens in season two. But like, almost the rap banquet was more. Like, you know, there's like a zeal for the, you know, a bloodthirsty zeal for the weird gruesomeness of, of the world. Yes. Not just sort of like, isn't this the most bleak shit you've ever seen? It's like, lock the doors.

It's the red wedding. And there's, you know, there's just like something, there's some pageantry to it that I think is really existed here. And so, yeah, I do think it's like, and as we noted, sexual assault a plenty, you know, an unfortunate hallmark of Game of Thrones. But it really does feel like, not our fave, but like it really does feel like in many, many respects. And just by virtue of the story opening up the world to your point, like all the different locations that we're going on the map. It just feels like to not just be bouncing back and forth from Kings Landing a Dragonstone, but to like. It makes a big difference. It does.

It makes a big difference to be at Harren Hall, to be in Tumbledin, to be up in the veil, to feel the scope. And more than scope, the variance of the world. It makes it feel like we are proper. truly in Westeros. And I think that it's an impressive balance right now, midway through this season, of simultaneously giving us more of that familiar throne's, like, essence, but also I think really orienting us

in what is specifically House of the Dragons mission and intent. And what does that feel? Like, the dragon stuff. I just think, I mean, I've brought it up a time or 400 on various ringer podcasts, over the years, but one of my great lament, one of the things that made me fall in love with a song of Ice and Fire and Thrones in the first place, and then great laments, shared by many, of course, at the end of the series was kind of like losing a feel for the supernatural,

fantastical elements. Goes to, I'm never over it and I never will be, just everything with the White Walkers at the end, all of it. This episode gave us three distinct but related, really crucial snapshots of the bond between a rider and a dragon in a way that like as not only a house of the dragon fan and thrones fan but a lover of fantasy worlds like really appreciate right and to be able to blend that with making more room for the comedy and the humor there are still plenty of i think what you said about tone is really crucial like there's a lot here that's still grim but that's different from everything feeling so dower all the time you know there's and i think they're doing a good job and And this is something I think the show always did well that we appreciated about it, but it is,

it is like humming at a new frequency right now, simultaneously pitting the teams and sides against each other. This was something we responded to in some of our favorite episodes of season two quite, quite powerfully. The dissent and the turmoil inside of the factions and then the surprising parallels across nominal enemy sets, that's when you can really feel that thematic richness and interest in the characters of the dynamic. And also I think like we were talking about this, I think responded to it quite well in episode three.

But I feel like now we're going to just be in this place across the rest of the series. That's my hope. Or that initial investment in time, the history between the characters of the beginning of season one feels so worthwhile now in a way that I just appreciate. So I mean, I think Renair are walking around the dusty Lego set, you know, means a lot. It means a lot to us that we know who Vassaris is. It's very important that we know who Varsairis was, you know. On that front, we got, as I mentioned, we got a lot of emails sort of compare. pairing character sets and, you know, we'll get to sort of like the Allison and Darren stuff and the, you know, and the Raina Aman stuff, like all of that stuff is really good. I thought this email we got from Lauren, this is to hop back to Otto's death in a previous episode. But comparing the death of the stag in season one, the hunt episode.

Yeah. this sort of consolation prize is this stag that Harwin Strong sort of delivers up to Vassaris. And Vassaris with his Valerian Steel Sword makes a mess as everyone watches on and is like, is this our king, really? Right. So comparing that death of that stag to Otto's death, Otto's decapitation, delivered up by Laris Strong, a different member of the Strong family, another Valerian Steel Sword and another sort of hack job. And to think about Reneera being the one on that hunt to have seen.

the white heart. You know what I mean? So it's just sort of like you know how far she's come from her early self and her early confidence and I think this idea of confidence

for Rainier Orwell really sort of like hits in this episode where he's like begging your pardon, your ass is on the throne. Do you need the church? You know? But like she's been so undermined

for so long and so doubted that it's just gotten to her. But where is that Reneera? from season one, that character, you know, and I understand why she's not that character because of what she's been through.

Yeah, I love thinking about that. I like the idea that the stag that the men pinned for Vesaris was not the right target, and auto is like a consolation prize as well, which is interesting. I think the fact that there was so much, you know, thinking back to the wagon ride over,

actually that ride over to the hunt was on my mind when in episode three, fell asleep in the carriage and Mosaria and they had that conversation about the rage, the billowing rage inside of it. Because I was always so struck in season one by Reneera, there's such a tense family dynamic inside of the carriage ride over, but that like no one's here for me lament. And that was painful and hard to be on the outside of your proper inheritance, right? Because there's this new shiny thing. But it's also hard to be in the spotlight and at the center of things and have everybody observing everything you do all the time. It's like the inverse of it.

But it still feels like no one's there for her. You know what I mean? I was thinking, I meant to talk about this later, but like thinking about Allison's three sons. And where are they right now? Right. So like Darren is being groomed horribly by Ormond, right? And then Agon's being led around by Laris. And then Alice, I think, has, you know, has possession of Amid.

But there are these like three people who are for better, for worse, or for their own ambition or whatever, have sort of like, invested in a Tark Tower boy. But, like, who's here for Reneira? Is it Damon? I don't ever trust that that's true, especially in this episode when he lies to her to protect someone else. Is it Masaria? I don't know. You know, so, like, who in that small council chamber is there for Reneira?

Yeah. Well, and, like, on that Viserra's front, you know, I'm thinking now of Jason Lannister handing him the, the gilded spear and this gift because he was trying to secure Reneer's hand, right? And so this idea of all of this, like, finery and the cosplay of power and import being what, like, Vesaris cloaked himself in and the performance of that moment, that feels so different. Even though Reneer is receiving something from Damon there, it feels so different from, like, Reneer holding temporarily that sword went back to Damon, as we talked about,

but, like, holding the inheritance, literalizing that of, like, the power. of their house, the lineage of their house, and then the prophecy. And so your question is an interesting one, Damon Masaria. I think they each have versions of, you know, I believed Masaria last season when she said, like, you are steadfast, I think, right? And I have like not seen that in the other leaders, that there was something genuine that led her to commit to Renera, will it prove lasting. Difficult to believe that with any character, I think. Damon, I think we both felt in season two that there was a genuine awakening for him. That the trials he went through at Harenhall with Vassaris,

even when he said last week, like, I've made my piece, right? The way that he has opted into, I'm going to be a good boy now and do what you tell me, is still so fully through the lens of I subbed, dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did for dreams and dragons made us kings, and now we should be gods, which is like, yeah, he's saying Reneera, like, they'll bow to you. but it's about his sense of Targaryen might. And so there's always something that can then pull somebody into another level of priority beyond just their allegiance to Roneiro,

which has to be on Roneira's mind. How could it not be? Absolutely. Really quick run through what I'm calling Weekly Bard Corner. Willie Shakes? I did ask our listeners to come through with like Shakespeare quotes, and a number of them did. So shout out our listeners. Love it.

But this is what they came up with for this week's episode. Ash wrote in with this line from Merchant of Venice. Shout out to our guy, Ormond, right? The devil can cite scripture for his purpose, an evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek, a goodly apple rotten at the heart. Love this. Perfect, Ormond description.

Yeah. Aidan, who was the source of the original sort of like Shakespeare quote, and William both wrote in with the same scene from A Midsummer Night's Dream, where Hermia is talking, about her father, right? And she would say, I would my father look, but with my eyes. I wish my father could see me as I see me with value, with my own heart, with my own decision, right? And Theseus says to Hermia, in this very patriarchal fashion, she should treat her father as, quote, one to whom you are, but a form in wax by him imprinted and within his power to lead the figure or disfigure it.

So, like, this is such an episode about fathers and their legacies. I thought William had this great line in his email where he says Legacies can be lighthouses Expectations can be fetters Golden or otherwise in this way that like

Darren and Raina and Reneer and Alan and all these characters are thinking about like how do I live up to what my father wants or my, you know, be it your actual father or your groomy father

like Ormond is. Last one at least, Joshua looking at that head on the table is like, let's talk about him Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Cool shout, Joshua. But Joshua had like a couple points, but one of my favorites was talking about sort of the palace intrigue of it all of Hamlet and how Hamlet, there are so many moments where characters are being observed. Like when Hamlet gives his to be or not to be soliloquy, he's being watched in that very moment. And we've been talking about, and Joshua pointed this out in like last week's episode we were talking about, like, all the shots where things were happening and members of the household staff were watching. And inside of the this episode we get like Masaria sort of lingering outside the small council, you know, to talk to Damon, whose head was that, right? But she was listening through that whole conversation that they're having inside of the small council, all sort of peeking his head around the corner into the small council

chamber. So like, you know, it's still, it's less overt than it was in last week's episode, but it's still the case that like when you're in the red keep, there are constantly eyes upon you and act accordingly or don't and see what happens. Yeah, I love it. Thank you for the Shakespeare Codes. Real fun stuff from our friends. The Russian of Venice, Mitzamide's Dream, and Hamlet. Bangers.

Bangers only. I love it. Okay. What a fun opening snapshot. My goodness. It's time to head to the bowels. Love a pleasure, Dan. It's time for the episode four.

Deep dive. Opening credits update. Toran Manderly, question mark. But we also still don't know who's standing next to him, is such a weird thing. Yeah. I have seen many people ask this quite, like, no one has really determined who this is standing next to Torin Minerly on the tapestry.

I have to imagine it's someone like in the small council, you know, because it all seems to be like people in the red keep, right? But I have no idea who it's supposed to be. Maybe or a while. Oh, I was going to say Masaria. But it doesn't. It looks like a Valerian's white hair, dark skin. That is what has been sewn onto the tapestry.

And Orwell, like, maybe like a hood on Orwell, maybe, but, like, unclear to me. Very strange. I think this is just, we need a higher bar for who makes the opening tapestry and when. It's as simple as that. With respect to Torin Mandurley, who I'm glad is here. I mean, he's part of the small council. Master of coin. Come on.

Important guy. Come on. I mean, rooks rest and the sewing of the seeds. Sure. Tor and Mandarly just got a new job. I think we need a higher bar than that. I did enjoy a text to do this, but this time the splitting of the tapestry,

the tearing of the thread took the head off the bloody rat, which made me feel good one week later for having previously thought that clearly the rat was auto's decapitated body. Shout out Preston. Preston, you're doing great. Do you think the renting of the cloth is meant to, you know, foretell the coming of the cats and their claws? I just, it's just a huge moment for cat people.

everywhere to know that Alan is a team cat. It's just wonderful. Only cat. And one can only hope that the Red Keep is just teeming with cats for the rest of the season. That would be fantastic. That would be wonderful. I love a cat. And it's always stressful when they're in Thrones, but we'd welcome it here.

Would welcome it here. All right. Taking over Tumbledon. Welcome to this new set, which is apparently the biggest set they have ever built for this show. This was from House of the Dragons built, twice the size of the King's Landing set. that's insane. Fascinating. Because the Red Keep is like a set entire. Like they can walk all the way through the Red Keep. So yeah, they built the whole ass town, I guess. Amazing stuff. Obviously this is a crucial setting. Tumbled's an important. It's an important place. And so investing in building it out. Cool. Great. Great stuff. A lot of really fun details in the house the dragon built about this location and the level of detail. You always just admire the craft of the show when you get to see. They're like, oh, we built this actual Olive Press, for example. And it's like you didn't need to do that, but you did. I appreciate it. I saw Fia, who's the actress who plays Helena,

was given, like, there was a little Instagram reel of her giving a tour of the dress she was wearing, and she's like, this is all hand-sown, you know, beating and embroidery. There's a dragonfly on each of my cuffs and a dragonfly here and, like, lifts up to her skirts, and she's like, here are all the underscrets. And it's just sort of like the level of detail on every single costume. It's just an incredible show. It's amazing. This was also, well, we'll get to the actual sequence later, but Sunfire.

usually they do the like, you know, blue screen couple folks holding sticks with the kind of loose shape of a dragon. They built a dragon. They built. And it was so interesting. So Tom could, yeah, like, what the scales felt like and everything. And it's funny because seeing that, I was like, that, how did they do that? That looks like he is against a real, and he was, wild stuff. They're like, we've seen Jurassic Park.

Exactly. I mean, who hasn't? We talked about this at the end of episode three because Chris was like, where's Tumbledin? and you broke out your map. You, just for now, your watch has ended because hopefully they've started putting characters in front of the map in the small council chambers, and so we can see inside of the show,

okay, that's where Tumbledon is, that's where King's Landing is, which is great. I suspect your work will resume at some point, though. It's important work. It's crucial. It's crucial work. In case anyone didn't check out the episode three coverage, just a quick refresh on where Tumbledon is,

what it is, thriving market town, right? Very close to King's Landing. 60 leagues. So it's just southwest like right there. Yeah. In the reach still, but on the border with the crownlands, the headwaters of the Mander. So there's just not far away, not far away at all. There's a beautiful bunny.

We open on this bunny. It's a very odd moment. I mean, like, I understand. We're contrasting the sort of like pastoral innocence of the bunny. The babbling brook, the buzzing of the insects, nature. Peace. That's your bath? This is my bath.

For the bath, I lean back. For the insects. This is more dragon. I guess insects would be more of like a, I don't know. I'll have to work on it. Okay. I think there are two moments in this episode that, you know, we just got done praising how beautiful it is and it is beautiful.

There are a couple moments where I was like, and the CGI bunny was one of them. And David on the back of Karaxes when he hear, when Kraxies is like, what's that then? And you see this sort of like the veil behind Damon. that looked fairly funky green screeny to me. I was too distracted by shouting at Damon to be nicer to Keroxies and to stop slapping him with his gloves, frankly, how dare he to focus on the green screens? It's real to tell you that there's the actual bunny with a leash to not escape, jumping around. And then they took the leash out.

That was a real bunny? I think so. Oh, I watched the House of Dragons Build. I missed it. I think it's a real bunny. Wow, that just disqualified all of my everything ever. So we want to keep that on the podcast? Do you want to keep that on the podcast?

Do you want to thought the real bunny was CGI? Sure. We can fact check it at the end and confirm my brain is totally adult. Claire summed it up by saying, basically it's the Nazis entering France in terms of the Hightower Army, 15,000 soldiers pouring in and they are taking up residence in each citizen of Tumbledin's home. Now, our lens for feeling the invasion of this invasion,

the invasive nature of the invasion, is through characters we know-ish. Kat? His wife. The brother we heard about for so long, Leo, and his family. Yeah. Do you think they're named Kat and Leo? Is that a Titanic reference to Kate and Leo?

I choose to believe it is. They're to dream. We need Kate. We need Leo. We need them now. That would be great. Yeah. The unnamed sister-in-law, right?

And then Leo. I believe so. And I don't even think we knew Leo's name watching the episode. It was only like after. And there's been a lot of conflict over what his character was called, but we've settled that it's Leo. But yeah, they're hauling lumber to increase their battlements, right? So they've taken over the town. They're sort of trying to fortify it. But Ormond's understanding is that Vager will be here any moment. Like our biggest dragons coming. And so we don't have to worry that much. We can just put up a few logs and we'll be

fine. He's going to respond really well to the update that he receives on that front, though. As always. Nice and calm. Even tempered. Measured. Measured. High Tower banners being raised across Tumpleton. And the use of the word carp, which I know was something that you found meaningful on the language front. He, Garrick, the. Once and Future Rapist. The Once and Future Rapist and the Assam. Because I have to believe when he's like, we're going to have a great time like we did in Honeyholds. Oh, no question. Yeah. He's like, he's ogling. I'm going to rape again. Before he gets to the house, he's like ogling all the towns. Gelled the shit out of that guy.

That's what I'd just say. No question. Tell us him, you know, if you're not happy with this, carp to Lord Ormond, and they will, but with grave results. Thorold to tell you, it's time to talk about the bath scene. Lord and Lady Footley are here. Big episodes for hats. Yeah, what did you make of Lord Footley's hat?

Lord Footley is quite the hat, and then that guy who, the one guy in Flea Bottom, who can read, also had quite a hat on. That was a wild hat. Banger of a hat. Wild, wild. Just like a milliner's dream, honestly. Yeah, it's like a sort of very turban-esque kind of hat for both of those guys. Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of silk and finery on Lord Footle for someone who apparently still smells enough to lead Ormond in a bathtub, presumably surrounded by like soaps and scented oils to still recoil in horror. Once again, doesn't give it a shrewd. shit who he offends. Not just soaps and oils. There's like active incense all around him. Yeah. Yeah. This is his guy. Do you think every Hightower loves a bath this much? Or is it just Allison and Ormond. I bet Gwain loves a bat. Oh, you know, Gwain. That's why you just like, get me to that in. Yeah. Gwyn loves a bath. Yeah. Oh, you're so right. Absolutely. Oh, man. Great stuff. I just want to shout that Lord Footley is played by one of the actors who plays

Ori the Dorf in The Hobbit. That's right. Yeah. Oh, my God. How sweet little face. Yeah. Delightful. Lady Footley, really, the one getting things done here. They're like, we're not happy that you are in our bed chamber. This is our space. And Orman's like, listen, doing a coup is tired work. I need to be well rested and also clean and smelling great. The power move of, it's not just that he's having this conversation with them while in the bath, which on its own would be astonishing. Yeah. And tell us a lot about him. All of the business is being conducted around him. Everybody is coming and going.

And it's not like there's a lot of bubbles in the bath. He's not hiding anything. And then, of course, he stands up. We had an email from our listener, Jonathan, who let us know that there was a BBC show, King and Conqueror, wherein both James Norton and another bath lover, Nicolite Costa Waldo, Jamie Lannister himself, have a scene where they're taking baths in separate baths,

but they're like in adjoining baths. And then they are set upon by someone. and Jonathan wrote they have to fight their way out, Eastern Promises style. Oh, hello. So when are we going? You have my attention. And Jonathan said to helpful screenshot, which I put in our notes many times. How many times?

Accidentally on every page. On every single page. I thought it was just a gift to me. In the head of the day you knew I was struggling and you're like, here's this picture of these two beautiful shirtless characters. But when are we doing a deep dive on King and Conquer? That's the question. I won't need much convincing after seeing this photo and hearing that summation. I'll tell you that. Eastern Promises style is a real just, yeah, I really hope we get to watch that together.

It's a good long line, a log line, very strong. Joe, yeah. You know, we like to talk about the dream of work-life balance, but every now and then, it got a multitask. So any feedback on the working desk over the bath? You know, he had not only the noseball, the pommender, the wine. I know you listen to podcasts, work podcasts in the baths. But it's for pleasure. It's the watch. And I have, I have done work in a bath before. Absolutely, I have. If you have a bath with like a proper, like, I've yet to graduate to those sort of like, that thing. That's like some real like bath luxury. Maybe, maybe for Christmas I will gift myself something like that. But like, yeah. But maybe I, I shouldn't be doing work in the bath. That should be relaxing time. You should get one of those nice wooden shelves, but just put like candles. And. And perhaps like a soothing tea. Ooh. Yeah. Then why not?

Yeah. Definitely not an iPad to do pod prep on. Yeah. Great stuff. Guilty. You think Ormond listens to the watch in the bathtub? What's his favorite podcast? He's a real Greenwald guy.

You know Ormond loves Greenwald. You know he does. Oh, man. When later in the episode, Ormond Hightower tells his traumatized ward, Darren, that he needs to be firm but fair. Do you think he was describing his, his tush? Oh. It's entirely possible. It is for a book fair.

Do you think the I'm going to bathe with everybody in the room around me is like, I want people to be uncomfortable and disarmed or just I don't care, I'm confident, I'm arrogant, I'm the center of my world, I don't care. Yeah. Interesting stuff. World's my oyster. Yeah. I'm in the Footleys bedroom and I don't give a shit and I'm going to hack their table to pieces and I don't give a shit. I want to know what wood, you're a student of the world. What type of wood is that table made of that it held up? I just, I somehow knew you'd have an answer prepared. I don't know if that's right.

Acacia's quite adorable hard wood. Yeah. It's a sturdy wood. Yeah. It's a sturdy wood. Great stuff. Ormond reminds them, the foot lease, and us, of course, that Tumbledon sided with. I was just looking at outdoor furniture and I was like considering some acacia. Well, in Los Angeles, you got to think about like, you know, what's going to hold up in that heat is acacia. a good one for that purpose? I think so. I'm less concerned about the cold weather here in Los Angeles as I would be up north. So it's a different climate. Okay. Tells them, you know, Tumbledon sided with the pretender. That's what he first turned as. Yeah. So basically he's like, be glad I took your bedchamber and not your heads, right? That's the vibe. She is the queen. That's what Lady Fultley says. Is she? Or is she a bitch with a dragon? Ormond, I would say, is very efficient. Sexism.

Targ racism. It's all right there in just several words. Correct. Several words. Steps up from the tub, the tush, the high tower on full display, and tells them, my purpose is to restore the rightful line to the Iron Throne. So we have that my purpose language later. He's going to say things to Darren.

And it's all very running in parallel to Reneira and the way that Reneira talks about this ordained by the gods standing, right? rightful line. I think it's safe to say from everything we hear from Ormond and see from Ormond across the episodes that we've spent with him so far. He means ginger and clad and green. He just means the High Towers, folks. He's happy to use High Tower Targ to get there and use the dragon as a tool.

But this is not about I remain a loyal soldier for Egon and Team Green. One king is as good as another. He told us right away. Yeah. Egon will work. We'll wait for Eamon. Aben's on here. Guess what? I got a third one in the pocket. It's fine. And this one is actually my favorite choice because the one that I have most control over. Darren sort of trying to

escort Lady Footley from the chamber and she like flips out and he just like recoils. Yeah. Because he's such a sweet boy. And, you know, we talked so we talked a lot about this actor on Talk the Thrones. Yeah. Good old Benjamin. But just what he does in his nonverbal opportunity. inside of this episode does so much character work for us. Excellent. And that's just like one of many, many moments. Just like his eyes, which are like filled with tears for like half the episode. Yeah.

Is Uncle Gwayne coming? His collateral here. It's galadryl here. It's Gwashedrude. Is Gwis coming to Dumbledin? Incredible. He is so. My nice uncle.

My non-rapey uncle. I know. I mean, don't we all long for Gawain ultimately? I just love Gawain. I love Freddie Fox. We had clocked the use of sire. before this character was confirmed as actual Darren in the first episode. And now, extra astonishing, given what we know and what we've gotten to see across half a season here,

you know, the guy with the god complex forcing the actual prince who he's about to make king to call him sire, honestly, it tells us as much as anything we see from Mormon, dear. Alternate theory, tell me. In the behind the episode, Claire Kielner described their relationship as Darren being in a, being in his thrall. Yes. I'm putting the vampire Ormond back on the table. He's an evil man in his thrall, the vampire Ormond.

Have we seen him in the sunlight? Yes, but I don't care. But Armand's a daywalker, so it's still fucking fits. You nailed it? You nailed it. Vince to me. I love this. Bold John.

First of all, quickly, I'd like to say, thanks to everyone for the very warm reception to the bowl cut photos that I posted on Instagram. That's not really the headline news. Thanks to the legions of you posting in the comments about how hot my mom is. Oh my God, I miss this. Well, she has seen it. Oh, is she thrown? She's processing.

Forrest Barathean. Your long time, I think, canonically established on half of our favorite character, mentioned Joe. Absolutely not. As you know, that I'm a Laris loyalist. It's true. So much so that a listener sent me a Laris Thirstrap TikTok, and I appreciate it. Also, like, someone sent an email where they were, like, in the headline, they were like, Joe, this email's about Laris to, like, get me to click.

Did it? Yeah. Did it? There you go. Yeah. Boris Barathean, canonically busy during this time in the war. Something's happening. Making himself busy.

Yeah. I'm too busy. Sorry. I liked the capturing this here with the excuses, you know, more excuses, which just then led to a string of quite rude remarks from Ormond about Boris's, again, canonically. established illiteracy and the ugliness of his family members. Ormond. Not a charitable guy.

Not nice. A bigger episode for hats or literacy. Because Lairz can read. Great question. Ulf can, cannot read. The lean-in from Ulf of like, you're about to say what that says? Alps like, hmm. Uh-huh.

Yeah, I can definitely see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that the Boris, the thing that for me, the Boris mentioned, most achieved, actually was just like reminding us. It's a couple things. One, it's like the show always has work to do of just kind of reminding us who is technically in the story. Right. We haven't seen in a really long time.

So it does that. But just reminding us because we've been, you know, tracking this like, are you given your supporters what they need question across many interactions? And that was how Reneera lost Boris. And maybe she would have anyway because Amid was there with something to offer. But that's part of it. It's not to offer. Yeah, it does. his fair bit for himself.

Don't call fair but firm. Exactly. Don't like call me to heal and talk to me this way. Givis like you need me. Except for when the battle actually starts and then I'll be like, oh, I'm busy. That's the other thing this achieved. And especially in an episode I think where Damon had to go up to the veil to say to Jane, you know, she's like, well, why have I fucked any of my men?

Isn't the war over it's like, you keep talking about you big dummy. Great stuff. Jane is crushing. Fantastic. And Damon's like, actually, we just need your money now, which I also have some notes on. this question of like what good is a pledge once made if it's not backed up with action. This is something that both sides have to think about. And we got little reminders of that.

Boris Ormond is not giving Ormond and the Greens what they need. Is everyone giving Team Black what they need? No. So this is a shared plight in individual. And I do like, you know, like House Lannister got, their forces got wiped out by the River Landers and the winter walls. Fish, feed, fish, feed. That's what happened to House Lannister. I mean, Lannisters are still alive.

Joanna Lannister are still going strong. But, like, their forces wiped out. Gray Joys were mentioned. I just feel like they're hitting, like, those throne's name. So we're like, where are the Barathians right now? What are the Greyjoy's doing? You know, we know them. That's right.

Terrell's? Man. Remember when we got to go up and be in the north for a couple minutes at the beginning of season two? That was great. I do. I remember when they made that, like, their entire, like, this is what season two is about. I do. I do.

Ormond is on everyone's minds, Joe, not just ours. Everyone's talking about Ormond. Everyone's talking about Ormond. From Harrington to Kingslanding to Dumbledon. Reneira is preoccupied with this rightly so. The Black Council is considering this question. And we do have a new character in the show, member of the Queens Guard. Finally.

This is Sir Adrian Redford. What did you call him when you texted me? Harwin Light. And I don't think it's an accent. He looks so much like Harman. Harwin? Harwin week. Harwin week.

You followed up with the breakbones reference there, which was important and crucial. They just, they're styled similarly. They look alike. It just feels like they must have had this deliberately, but who knows? Reneer's like, why? Why Tumbledin? A market town? You know, it's not fortified for battle.

Why? He dares me to rain fire down on a seat that raised my banner. just hearing that already were like on instinct thinking of Danny thinking of the bells, right? The realm would name me, Magor returned. They'd rise up against me. And this is like a smart thing for Renier to be considering, right, a reasonable worry to have. The fact that this also shows us that Ormond shares a passion for the Hightower family business of like thinking about PR. This was such an essential aspect of auto. character, piss at Eam at Egon because he hanged all the rat catchers and people were going to

be pissed. But what did that undo? The hard work auto did of organizing the Jaharis funeral procession, which led to the Citizens of Kings Landing chanting led by a herald, Renera the Cruel. So we have proof inside of the show of how quickly something, whether it's real or not, bloodshed sheets were not actually of Renera's design. It didn't matter. She was still blamed.

if something is of her design, what will the reaction be? Earlier, we talked about this when, you know, Reneira and Masaria went on their Ruta Bega quest, and Damon said as a gesture only, yes, and gestures matter, right? And so, like, Reneer is somewhat aware, but not aware or not. She's just bad at this game. There are things that Reneer is great at, but this PR game, the High Towers outstrip her at every turn, I would say, like, Orman doing his big show of like, well, gel this guy, Like, it's fine, people of Tumbledin.

I am here for you. You know what I mean? And Reneer is like, ah, the graffiti, that's bad. I'm going to give the gold cloaks no specific instructions. Just say, make it go away. Yeah. And then, you know, that goes disastrously for her because she's just not thinking through all of the ramifications of the PR battle. And once again, that graffiti moment is so interesting to me because, like, again, to go back to Ormond saying, like, do you need the church to know?

It's like, do you need to flip your lid about a little bit of graffiti? Right. Like, is that what you need to be that insecure about that? And again, I understand why Rainier is in that place. But, like, it's not doing her any favors right now. Yeah, it's tough. Says that the gods also would rightly cast her down. I was struck by this just because it felt like a potential silver lining in a otherwise

very worrying chosen one god complex circumstance where it's like mostly, that fanaticism is dangerous. It allows you to justify atrocities and decisions. But, like, could it be a check? Could it be a check, potentially, on bad choices and bad impulses? Does it matter if it can be, if the overall path is still the same?

It's kind of interesting. Archie or while is just very practical. He's looking for solutions, right? He says, redirect Damon's Rivermen. Let's root out the high towers, house by house. Masaria's viving with it, right? It won't be bloodless, but...

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me, honestly. Well, and also then they end up, Runera's like, wait, well, let's... Just to keep vigil, but we're going to send a dragon anyway, right? Now, it's an intimidation tactic. It's a monitoring tactic, right? Awareness, potentially a deterrent,

though, of course, there is also a dragon inside of Tumbleton. But a much smaller one... Much smaller one. Than Vermithor or Silver Wing. No question. And at the end of the day, it's a dragon, perched there on the town.

You don't want to burn. because you know your nemesis is trying to incite you to do exactly that. I do think sending a big fuck-off dragon to go watch the town is not a terrible idea. Should have had a dragon tracking them every step of the way, frankly. Correct. Oh, man. Or while Joe gets to keep his title of Graham May Stern gets an official invite here to the council. Smallball.

No, no, we're not doing that? Got it. End of an era. RAP small ball era. It's nice to have an excuse not that we need one to think about our guy. bees. I'm wearing my my honeycomb earrings for House Beesbury. Fantastic stuff. We'll talk about wine a little bit. I'm thinking about my guy Lyman. But I do like, again, it's these political animals thing. Orwell as a political animal is really

interesting to me because like, you know, later when he's like, oh, did you, are we, are we killing this? Oh, we're not killing the sept. Oh, I never thought you were joking about doing this up. Incredible moment. But I will if you, but no. Okay. Renira just doing the like I was not familiar with your game meme in response to that. Loved it. But like small ball. No. Oh, relic of a bygone era.

Fuck it. No. Torin, like when Damon comes in, he's like, I'm the clever one in here. And he's like, of course you are. Yeah. Heard. Sure. Close you all.

Heard chef. You know, political animals. Yeah. And I just think that's really interesting. This sort of like, how does an Orwell make it through three administrations? Yeah. You know? And what are those political animals clocking and respecting in each other?

is interesting to watch in this episode Orwell and Masaria observe each other. Because she backs his plan. She's like, sounds good. Yeah. And then later he's like, oh, in response to some of what she suggests.

This is very interesting here. I think that was the name a master of coin, just a scapegoat. I mean, or while was like, oh, I see. You're a serious player here. Game, recognized game. Got to step it up.

Joanna, who is not in attendance? Oh, Corlis. the council is thin. And this is when Masaria offers up the recruitment plan. Master coin. And I thought this was interesting that she wasn't like, just in case things like we can't, she's like, there are ready shit. It's just a matter of when people discover it. Yeah.

So from the word go, it's a setup for Torin to take the blame. Masaria, PR, Master, honestly. Very thoughtful about it. Reneer's suggestion here is Rat Banquet enthusiast, Torin Menderly. Now, we saw in episode three that he is, I would say, an astute observer of Mass. of tactics and also unafraid to call out BS. Like he said to Rainira, what did she say? He intrigued me, right? She says that he intrigued her. And I was thinking back to him saying to her, like, almost like they're, you know, maybe enough to like let you forget that it was your blockade.

She was, like, intrigued by him telling truth to her, telling truth to her. Yeah. That intrigued her. Alan tells them truth to her. You know what I mean? So she's like kind of trying to, again, And just the way I want to give Reneer a credit, surround herself with people who will tell her the truth. Yes. Though Torr-Manderly in his new capacity on the small council is just sort of like, oh, sure, that's a clever one. Well, part of what she's so desperate for is like people who have an opinion and an idea and a plan. You know, to go back to last week's the useless reaction to like a, whatever the queen thinks. Yeah, Corliss isn't there.

Does it make any difference? Not so much because he was useless there before, I guess. I think it makes us wonder if Manderly feels like the kind of character who will be scapegoat. You know, he seems pretty attuned. Can he? Yeah. But I agree with you. I like that Reneira, even though she in real time responded with, like, I have a long memory, you know, fuck off.

He intrigued me. Yeah. Respected the hustle. Not officially a member of the small council, but let's be honest, an advisor and all but name, Allison High Tower. And so Reneira seeks Allison out in the godswood, the background of this conversation in this scene. Helena and Jihara just playing, which like, in. in real time when you're watching this team for the first time. It pulls on the heartstrings.

But given the tension of the pregnancy reveal at the end, my God, I mean, to rewatch that was like, ooh, boy. Renera wants to tell an Ormond, Joe. And Allison says she barely knows the guy. And Renira, who just introduced herself last episode to her own half-brother, probably should be like, makes sense. Allison has been at court since she was a kid. I know half-sister.

Would you say that Allison, given the reminder here, that, you know, she barely saw Ormond when, after she came to court at King's Landing. And also we learn in this episode that Ormond not responding to Otto's letters. I have some theories and questions. Yeah. Well, we can, there's some other reads on that potentially. But it's not like, you know, because we know Allison only saw, we do know definitively Allison only saw Darren once in the last five years. They weren't visiting and in touch regularly. She hasn't been summering in Old Town.

Do you say she's pining for a city? She doesn't even know. That's an odyssey joke. Wow. Great stuff. All right, Renera's like, okay, fine, fine, fine. Tell me what you do know. There's this impatience, a very understandable one because there's so much to do.

And from Renara's perspective, so few people she can rely upon to help her to get information and make progress here. All right, tell me what you do know. The impatience with Ulf and Hugh in the later scenes was so funny. but you also do really, I think, effectively feel the stress in those moments. I can pay you. He's like, I'm actually here for another reason, but like, no. Yeah. And Joe, we hear what from Allison's about Ormond?

Take us through this description. It's just fascinating. He loves a bath. He hates smelly things, but also he's a scholar. That's right. Studies the history. He collects tapestries. Writes balance.

Despises the ignorant and the uncouth. So Viseris, which we talked about, right? History is for sure tapestries. What is it tapestry, if not a Lego, you put it on the wall? You know what I mean? And then. And then Darren, Damon, we've also seen like digging through the scrolls. Yes.

Specifically with the scholarship for Damon, more the obsession with his own. Targaryian. Targaryen and Valerian lineage. I'd say Damon, you could make the case if you really wanted to stretch it. He's a ballad enthusiast. You know, he serenated Vermethorpe. That's this guy loves music. He did.

despises the lesser. He has no patience for people he thinks are beneath him. So that's, interesting to get some comps to both brothers there. I think it's interesting to hear all the high towers talk about each other inside of this episode. So, like, we will hear Gwain talk about Ormond when we get to Heron Hall. But here, Allison is not just talking about Ormond. She's talking about what Gwain thinks of Ormond. Thought him cruel. Yes. So if we think that, like, Ormond physically or at the very least mentally abuse, has been abusing Darren. Did he do the same to Gwain, who is a younger relative of his, like, was Gwain his sort of, like, whipping boy before Darren was? And then did Gwain do anything to intercede on behalf of Darren?

Right. Is that why Darren's so eager for him to be back? It's Gwen coming to Tumbledon, you know, because, like, Darren, who has been, like, molded as Ormond's ward, but is still such a nice boy. Like, it feels like there has to have been some insulation there between Ormond and Darren. And I have to imagine that it was like, hey, should we not? rape women, Gwain, you know, the best, the closest thing we have to like a moral high tower, I guess. But like, thinking about the timeline of like, Gwain was there in Old Town until quite recently. That's right. Yeah. He's the one who offers up the report on Darren's character to Allison, which also we see enough from Darren directly to just, I mean, the tenderness with which he's nuzzling to Sarian. He's a good boy. Clearly a good boy, clearly kind. But also, he also loves a ballad. He's, no question. The loot.

I believe. Yeah. The fact, this is like another kind of confirmation that Gawain is a good judge of character, right? Which feels important too for Gawain. Like he said Darren was nice. We should believe him. That Darren was kind. We should believe him.

Says Ormond's cruel. We see clearly that that is legit. But yeah, just the idea of like Gwain, who maybe was bullied or tormented by Ormond himself when he was younger. Yeah. Doing what he can to, you know, to protect Darren. and then not being there anymore. Right. And Darren is now more vulnerable than he's ever been.

And it's just him and fucking yes man, John Rockston. I know. Yes, so take refuge in his dragon bond. He can't let Ormond make him feel like shit about this core aspect of his identity. Right. But Orman's like, I told you not to fucking nuzzle that beast. What are you doing? I mean, I love a villain.

And so I want Ormond to be here. But when he walked into that sept and Tessarian roared at him, I was like, get his ass girl. Robustin. That description of Orman, you know, it's interesting because he has, we've talked about the Valerian Steel Sword, the gorgeous armor. He's dressed for war. The velvet. The velvet. I mean, it's a cape.

That description's not giving warrior to me, but it is giving conqueror, right? It is giving, I'm thinking about my pursuit and advancement. Tywin, which is the comp that the show keeps wanting to make. Talk about a wonderful cape. Hmm. One dress for battle. I remember thinking about this. That's seeing him on the horse, like, wouldn't you just get caught in the fabric and maybe fall off?

Would you like to see Ormond ride into some throne room or another and just drop a deuce? Yeah, Ormond, drop a deuce or the horse? Because he would be a horse. He would be a horse. But actually, he would abhor a deuce. He would be like, what does that smell, assassinate that horse? That's high when throne room moment is still to this day, one of my favorites. The battle is over.

We have won. How's Orman? And with Darren, Reneera asks, and this was fascinating, Joe. Did it pain Allison to send him away? And Allison reveals to Reneera, it was her choice. What did she make of this? Oh, this is really interesting, very sad. Again, we've talked about Allison's sorrow and, like, joy in hearing that Darren is a good boy.

But also the sorrow that comes with it is like, okay, all the kids that were raised away from me. Right. The kid that was raised away from me is a good kid. Right. And I raised Egan and Amund. Right. And, you know, poor Helena. And the thing that she said in response to Kouin and the sixth episode of season two was

it the court or their mother. And that is, yeah, agonizing to confront. We got many emails. You know, you were asking this question on Talk to Thrones of like, is, is Darren actually a ginger or is Ormond dyeing his hair red? Yeah. And we got a lot of emails from listeners wondering, is... Darren's red hair the reason he was sent away from court because if Alicent is making this case against Roneira and her bastard boys based on the fact that they've got this dark, partially based on the fact that they've got this like dark strong boy's hair and then she pops out a redheaded baby. She's like, get that redhead out of here.

Undermines my whole hair, you know, the seat is strong argument, you know. This is such a great shout. Nobody liked to look at the hair color in minute one quite like Allison Tye Tower. It's a great shout from the bad babies here. That was incredible. I found myself so... It was upsetting when we first heard Allison voice this question and this doubt in season two. But I found it like a different degree of despair. Darren, it's kind of like true and not true, right?

On the one hand, Darren is a better guy than Egon and Eamond. Bars in hell, but yeah, he clears it. Fair, yeah. Yeah. Darren seems like a lovely boy. He does. But to see, like, if only Allison knew, this is no life, this is no better, happier life for Darren. This is misery.

This is turmoil to see what Ormond is subjecting him to. And that just broke my heart. Like, what would she feel if she knew that? It was just made me very sad for her and for Darren and for all of them. Like, he wasn't actually spared. He was just exposed to a different type of cruelty than the one that he would have been exposed to growing up in the Red Keep in Kings. landing. Absolutely. And not only that, but put into, and we got a lot of emails and a lot of people have commented on this and we'll sort of like hit it a bit more as we discussed the episode,

but the parallels between young Darren and young Allison and the way in which Allison was taken away from her home and molded and shaped by her father, groomed by her father in many ways to be like put on your dead mom's dress and go read to the king, you know, like all that shit. In order for Otto to get closer to the throne. advance, yeah. And the way in which Darren is under very similar circumstances. And a lot of people have noted they feel like the actor that they've cast to play Darren looks like Emily Carey, who played young Allison and stuff like that, you know,

and there's like blocking parallels and all this sort of stuff like that. So it's like she did to her, in trying to protect him, she did to her youngest son what was done to her. Oh, God. Very grim. You hate to see it. One of the things that Otto would say to Allison in those early season one episodes, you know, stop, stop like picking at your nails, right? Picking at your cuticles. And the fact that Allison is doing that again and was doing it in this scene. So tough that the nail picking is back. Man. Allison says, I don't know now. You know, what fate that choice has consigned him to, Darren. And Ranira takes a beat, looks around, takes a near, and then says, you know, I would have spared him.

And it has this feel, I think, of, like, trying to convince yourself, hoping that it would be true. Hoping it would be true. And for Reneera, and then for Allison, who was the author of the You Are the Challenge sequence with Egon back in the day, which, of course, is on our minds in many respects in this episode, and said to Reneer last week, this is going to change you. And you can tell me that it won't. You will do things you never thought possible. You will do things you never thought possible. So, like, kind of this tandem of wanting to believe that that human heart and her friend is still there. But having seen enough to know inevitably what the seed of power, but also the nature of the realm.

The order of things idea again. You and I have, like, slightly different interpretations of this. I don't, I don't think that, I'm not confident enough in mind to say that you're wrong or anything like that. But your interpretation of this was that Allison is like. Doubted for Nera. doubts Reneera and offers up this information about Wormon as like a self- self-protection. That could be the case.

I thought I thought I saw it as like a, oh, there's my friend and I will help my friend. Maybe that's two sunshine and lollipops for what's going on here. But I think there's also another possible interpretation to what Reneira says, which is like, you know, I would have spared him. But like, can she do it now that he's caught up in this Tumbledon business, you know, now that he's part of this gambit, like, that's off the table. Right. I don't know.

Yeah. Oof. God. Geez. Little each shoots leaves, you know, emphasis on the wrong syllable stuff. I love it. This is where Allison offers up that the very sensitive to orders info. And I just can't genuinely can't wait to.

To see how that plays out. This is not in the book. So, like, we have no idea how this is going to pay off, but it's got to pay off. There's no way it's in every scene that he's wafting, you know. nice smelling things in his nose for it to not come back. We're going to hit some theories in the book section on that front. I'm excited. Corliss, meanwhile.

Just as like, Alan, why don't you just do a little Hand of the Queen internship for a minute? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. This is insane. Wild. Hand of the Queen, Hand of the King is like, it's like Robert Barathean took his entire household up to Winterfeld to ask Ned Stark to do this because you need like a, it's a very important. job and you need the person in that role. I'm not going to say the guy, but like the person in that role. You need that guy, non-gender. To just be like, oh, it's Alan now. And I don't think

Alan is Hand of the Queen because he's not wearing the pin, but he's sitting in the chair. He's on the small council. Now, here's why from like a TV writing perspective, I like this. We'll get the Alan and Renier a scene and we can talk about that. And I talked about on Talk to Thrones how it was like one of my favorite scenes because I had just been complaining about how every single Allen scene was just sort of like about his, I mean, they're still talking about his dad, but about like his legacy, the naming, like this, he was like a one-note character. But to give him that Reneer a scene around the Vassar's dusty Lego sets, but then like to have him on the small council really gives a show an opportunity to give Alan more to do. And that is a character much more than Corliss at this moment who needs screenings. time, who needs fleshing out, who needs deepening. So if I'm sitting in the writer's room and I'm like, this doesn't happen in the book, we'll just send Corliss off to murder a bunch of pirates. I cannot believe we told Chris we were done with the triarchy. And then Coralus is like, I'm going to do it. I got to go hunt down some trierky remnants. We will never be done with this.

So this isn't the book. But they're like, yada, yada, yada. Corliss is off. Alan's sitting on the small council. Genuinely an insane thing to do. But from like a TV writing point of view, I'm like, I relish the opportunity to spend more time with Alan. I think that's a great shout. Like, I like as well that Alan, you know, when he says to Corliss is like, well, I, okay, the giving you my name thing didn't work out quite like I was hoping it would. But you can learn. He doesn't even like tell Roneira though. He's just really like, he's out. He's out. He's a horse. He's like, you'll sit on the small council. Bye. And it's like, Alan's like, I guess that's my job to tell Runeira that you're gone and you appointed me. Armored up. All of his men are a horse and they are ready to go find a triarchy. They miss them. They can't quit them. I like Alan, I like Alan's reluctance as a character beat too. Like he's like, I'm not a creature of court.

This is not, I don't have, not only the experience, but I don't have really the desire to do this. So that's fun. So not a political, like, not a political. Yeah, which is a different energy from a lot of the people at that table who are thinking about advancement. And Alan has different motivations and different, just a different relationship to the idea of power and proximity to power.

So that's potentially very interesting. I thought that like Corliss, even though like you said, this doesn't happen in the books. I honestly was when this first, I was like, what is going on here for a couple reasons, like having Corlis leave the Allen thing that you noted, I do think it fits inside of the show that Corlis is a character who responds to things going poorly at home by being like back off to war, you know? You've done it before. Remember when he disappeared for six years after a hundred percent? No, it's his, I guess, attracts in that sense. It really is. And then, so Alan says here,

the payoff of this comes in the later Allen scene with Renier, about. but he says anger's not something that can be ended with a blade, right? He's trying to continue to provide us. He has this, like, wisdom to his father. He kind of comes in with the inverse of that later with to Renierre. Well, he's like sometimes young men are full of seed and they've got their blood up. They've got their blood up and they've got to go punch something. Exactly.

And, like, I thought it was interesting that I think when he says this here to Corlis, he believes it, but he still found the kind of like generosity of spirit to defend Corlis to Rinear earlier. And also, on the one hand. knows it's true. Defend, but also just sort of like, isn't this really where you want my dad anyway right now? Yeah. And that's how Corlis justifies it. He's like, this is how I can help. But like, is it? Renera needs him there to advise her. I'm really curious to see what they do with this, genuinely. We need a lot of questions. We never have questions about whether we want to be with Laris. I mean, Laris and Agon and now Sunfire, sweet Sunfire puppet that they built

for this. Sweet Sunfire. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. You can't blame the dragons for their people. Okay. Too many dragons across the canon have riders who are a hero, and then that person is gone, and then their next rider is a villain or vice versa. And obviously they do then form the connection and channel the love and hate of the writer.

That's like an interesting thing. So Sunfire having a role in Mayleys' death is like... Oh, no, no. That's completely amended vague. Sunfire, a role. A role. A role. A role.

Egon flew into battle, took Sunfire, who was not prepared for this, And then Sunfire immediately got cut open, shredded, and then they got roasted, and Eggon's cock exploded like a sausage. But we saw in this episode, I'm sorry, I'm not here to like vilify Sunfire, but like, we saw Carraxas just be like, Damon, I'm going to do what I want. Dragons can do what they want. And Sunfire is like, battle sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. But.

So I think so I bit Mayle's his neck. I said A roll. I didn't say, killed Mayleys. But I'm just saying, I find it weird to be like, oh, cute, darling. I love the drag. But to say like cute, sweet, darlingest sunfire who never did a wrong thing, all of these dragons are engaged in these battles. Yeah, they're weapons of mass destruction. Yes.

All of them. And sweetheart little cutie faces too. Sweet beautiful sunburn. I just think that it's interesting. It's actually kind of why I think that the sunfire thing in particular with Agon over seasons two and three has been interesting. It's like one of the only moments that we feel, I think, almost reflexive warmth toward Agon. When they nuzzle their little faces before Rook's rest and then watching Eggon. despair here.

No, I agree. This is the most humanizing stuff we get from Aagon. I don't disagree. But I think I would caution, not you, you know everything about dragons. But I just think in general, like, like when we get Tessarian at the end of the episode

and we see Dary and Nuzzling to Sarihan, we're just like, oh, and like, my sweet girl, we will fly again, like all of our stuff. But what does it end with? The torch and the crunch. Gross and the corpse. Yeah, the crunch. It was already dead.

Dragon's going to dragon. You know what I mean? Like, they're not puppies. They're not horses. They're not slaves. You cannot know the mind of a dragon. Like they are dangerous creatures. There is a reason that our boy, Kristen Cole, has been in a state of complete existential dread since being exposed to dragon war.

It's all very sad. Very, very, very sad. It's almost like you shouldn't wage a dragon war. And it's almost like the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. Hmm. Thank you. Thank you for these wise words of wisdom in the... opening scene of this series.

Egon seeing, so we should remember, he's unconscious because of the grave nature of his injuries. So this is his first. We've talked a lot about what you need to see in order to understand and accept, right, what has happened. Egon didn't like see sunfire after Roeux's Rest. He was taken back in crates,

gravely wounded and on the brink of death to King's Landing. So he's seeing this for the first time, processing this for the first time. He's just heard. He's also back at Roaksworth. the sight of his ruin. It's a lot to process. And very fire that burned his cock to smotherines.

Exploded. Bursed. Sausage on a spit. Sausage on a spit. My boy, I'm here. I'm here. And there's this group, Joe, of entrepreneurial monsters, is how I'm referring to them. They see a business opportunity, but I, of course, find this disgusting.

This is straight out of the book, not this moment, but like this happens elsewhere in the book storyline where people are like a penny a penny. A penny. That's right. Penny to touch the dragon, more to sit the saddle. Charges two pennies because Aegon has both hands on sunfire. Certainly an indicator of what the Targaryans are courting with this war, a magical creature, a symbol of Targaryen power, a godly proximity might turn into a golden dragon. Golden dragon. The most beautiful dragon that ever dragoned. Turned into a carnival attraction, right? A penny to touch. Certainly mirroring on that the most beautiful dragon front, mirroring,

this is mirroring of sunfire and egg on and what has happened to the golden princeling piece of shit. But golden princeling and now, you know, going to be called mangled face by this piece of shit Janos and in mere scenes. Like how we get to a future where asshole prince sees a puppet show and reacts the way that he reacts, right? This story is all connected, even though it's over hundreds and hundreds of years. So you're like, Arian had some points. Nah, I think that's, I'm going to leave that to Chris. Aaron Bright Flame made some good points. I think I'm going to leave that to Chris.

Joe, did you think that the bearded gentleman seemed like he recognized Laris? He kept looking at him. Yeah. That seems to me, like, worrying and like something that's probably going to be an issue. He gave, I will say this. photos don't exist so people don't, you know, no one knows what color Darren's hair is. Like, you know, there's a lot that people don't know. But we gave Allison and Helena a lot of shit for their shitty costumes.

And I will just say Laris, what attempt is he made to disguise himself? Egon at least has like a hood up. I mean, Laris is a bit recognizable. And he's just sort of like out there looking the same as he always has. The garb is still too fine. Though I will say, again, the. The Laris Thirstrap TikTok that someone sent me. So just of which was the gods bless you for being loyal to the one true king.

And it shows with a glow-up. And it shows Laris in Kings Landing versus Laris on this season on the road. And it's true that his hair is like less greasy. It's very full. Yeah. He looks a bit better than he has the craziest seasons. Yeah. If only Agon could say the same.

You know. There are ways in which Aigon does. And have his hands covered in the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, for the tanners and the shit for the farmers before long. See, Egon humbled makes him more attractive to me than Egon. I quite agree. You know, I quite agree. Menacing.

Quite agree. Joe, on the, is this good for your disguise and for remaining incognito front? Where would you rank speaking high Valerian and clear earshot of other people? It's also like he knows more Valerian than he like when he got dunked on by the payment in the council meeting. I was like, where did all this valerian come from? Granted, he only like spit out a couple words here. You're right. It wasn't totally embarrassing the way that it was.

He was studying while he was a convalescing. Make a war? He's alive. I know it. He's alive. He must be sunfire. Wake up. Sunfire.

I'm here. Wake up. Sunfire. I'm here. Then he speaks high Valerian. Laris is quite alarmed by this. Gregor. Oh, he's simple.

Carlos. Can we see what Laris says to Egg on after this? I am very sorry. But you must accept what is before you. I wanted to see him. You've seen him. He's dead. Will you stay and rot with him?

Will you get up and live? Devastating. I was waiting for that guy to be like that's going to be a third penny, honestly. Oh man, I guess he's just, yeah. The moments, we talked about this on Talking Thrones, but through line across this episode of the moments where characters, different circumstances in each case, in some way, however well-intentioned or not,

miscount something about... Misunderstand between a writer and its dragon. Yeah, which goes all the way back to Allison when Amund was young. Yeah, but like Damon does in this episode where he's like, Raynall, let's go home. And she's like, no, I am him, he is me. That's right. You know, we are bonded.

Yeah. I thought that the Damon won because he should certainly know better was the most striking. This Laris one is kind of out of the, you know, need to... preservation, but still, Ormond, obviously, is just a complete targ bigot. So that one is... You get up and live, I think is... Yeah, a really, really beautiful potential sentiment, misunderstanding what's going on. I will just say this.

You love Laris. I do. Malice looks much more decomposed than Sunfire does. That's all I'll say about that. They did chop off Malesis' head and... But the corpse itself is... Yeah, in a misstep parade. into through the streets.

So maybe once part of the neck is exposed, or just a lot of. Maybe. It was very upsetting to see, to see Maly's like that. Kristen. Gawain. Heron Hall, Alice.

It's basically just a word cloud of our favorite thing. Goat sounds. Goat sounds go. They ride past the turf that Vagar scorched when instantly annihilating the very limited garrison

left behind, enter the castle with the man. We get some of our favorite things. Puddles, reflect. Shunkey sounds, we're back. Har and all. Would you live here? Would you live in Haranol?

Yes. It's like rains inside all the time. I love it. Absolutely, I would live in Haran Hall. This is your version of Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallen Water. It seems quite damp. I bet it reeks in there. I would need like a hermetically sealed room for my books, but other than that, you know, yes.

Yes. Yes, I would live there. There would be a lot more cats, but a few. were goats, but maybe some goats. Definitely more witches. Alice, as I mentioned on Talk of Thrones, dressed in what I can only assume, are like, I feel like she sort of like Cinderella Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Bood, like went into Simon Strong's closet closet.

It was just sort of like, these fine purple velvet robes are now gowns for me. I mean, he was a fit lord. Yeah. These golden chains are now mine. This is who I am now, Queen of Haren Hall. It's working. Because she looks great. She said, steward of sorts, which you think is her fucking with.

Kristen Cole, in his mind, I love this interpretation. I think it's really good. And then she tells them, Rainer is taking Kings Landing. And then he goes, oh, we didn't know. And, like, one of our listeners, Katie, compared this to Kevin Spacey's delivery at the end of seven. And I'm like, I wouldn't watch that clip. It's like, oh, you didn't know. Spoilers for seven, but like about Guinephalda. And I'm just like, oh, wow, that's iconic. Also, Meg O'Keefe, pal of the pod, dropped in our comments section her theory for where

Vagar is, which is she thinks the lady Vagar is on the aisle of faces being concealed by the wherewards. Fun. I love it. Because our question on Talk of Thrones is like where is Vagar? How does

one conceal a dragon of that size? Vigar could not possibly be bigger. So where is Vagar? And so I love that. Mysteriously veiled and mist and shadow on the Isle of Faces. I love the A-Gar gets to go to the Isle of Faces. I believe it. I buy it.

Vagar deserves it. It deserves a little Vakay. Sure. A little R&R and wellness retreat. Yeah. And there's that moment later in this scene where one of Kristen and Gawain's men comes and is like, we found a pretty big, pretty big dragon's desk. But abandoned. So still.

definitive answer for where's Vagaris, which is fascinating. On the no definitive answers front, Alice just actively withholding some key intel here. They're like, where's Amon? We were supposed to meet Amon. We had a plan. We were going to meet Amon. He left. He left. He left. Makes no mention of the fact that he was stabbed through the kidney by a strong son and then fell prone at her feet begging for her help. Doesn't bring that up. Nope. Doesn't share that. I'm sure she's telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It was, to zoom in on Gawain's face on the Rainiera took King's Landing Front, he was, he was like, uh, I'm concerned. Yeah.

Like, my sister is there. Yeah. Our cause. Oh, no. And Chris is just like, oh, good, more death to march towards. Maybe it's going to marchion, we should run headlong towards it. Well, Joe, I'm not sure if you know this, but one of Kristen's core tenants since the season two finale is to die would be kind of a relief. Uh, which again, I just hope is on everybody's minds here.

They're at Gawain and Kristen processing this information or withholding information at the lovely dining table. This table is inspired by that. It is. It's not, but let's say it is the round table. Arthur, Simon Strong, us. Well, I felt Simon's absence here because. Yeah, where was the venison? Where were the red currents? Yeah.

Just existential dread? No. Not as tasty. No. Not as tasty. No. Not nearly as tasty. No, no omami to the existential drive. Exactly right. Are you, do you crave a tomato juice on an airplane on the Umami front?

We've talked about this so many times. You have a, like, have to have one. A V8. Have to, oh, a spicy V8. I just, and I have those multiple times a week. Anyway, sponsor us. Get in here. It is like a sickness in you that you must.

Delicious. Like a vampire. You must feed upon your V8, spicy V8 when you're airborne. This is not a thing I have. I like a water. I'll have some water on a plane, too. Yeah. They think Agon's dead.

So Allison's idea, which Ranira had some notes on but then immediately put into action, spread far along. Spread far along. Spread to be effective. Spread to Heron haul over to Rook's rest. Yeah. Making the rounds. Wild stuff.

I mean, pretty soon Egon himself is going to find out that this is the word. And he's not going to react well to that. Gawain wants to join their host to Ormond and Kristen says no. Later, Ormond will receive a letter from Gawain. Gawain and Kristen are not on the same page in this sequence. And sad. it's, they're our favorite romance. So our second favorite after I'm not.

It's almost like when you're like, hey, should we stop men from raping? And Kristen's like, eh, Gawain's like, you're free to do it. Yeah. Okay. You're free to talk to the men. Yeah. Kristen still clad in his hand of the king necklace, his bling, is like, can't go back. Like, yeah.

We get another signature speech from him here. There's no way forward for me if Rainier is on the throne. Right. Right. After her oranges and cinnamon, she said no. She's going to fuck off. It's been shitty for me ever since, honestly. I haven't gotten over it.

All downhill since. Everyone else's problem. Yeah, I mean, basically is invoking his past. You know, this was something that would be weaponized by others against him and he would feel embarrassed of, right, and insecurity. And now he is the one to tap into this and invoke it. Foot soldier, you know, son of a steward. When Lord Dundarians' favor ceased, my father died of a broken heart, a murder.

I just love sometimes these very tremendous nominees sounds like at all. These very intense Kristen. Because he's so, he's so like. How DJ Grasanova of him, you know what I mean? Exactly. I miss task. What a great show. What a great show.

Maybe not with DJ Grasanova though. Sad. Sad, sad, sad. Yeah. I loved things. I thought this was really good. You know, talking about the nobles play their Game of Thrones.

Because the love of Game of Thrones. It's the second week in a row where someone could have said Game of Thrones and didn't Hey, I'll keep the house. Listen, once again, if the prompt is let's make Season 3 of the Dragon more like Game of Thrones. They're like, let's just sort of allude to it in every single episode.

It's a great note. Let us attack it as the scorpion does the ox. Let us become rates with fear is our standard. Big Lord of the Rings sky here, I think. Ring wraiths? A sentence so normal, you put it on your Instagram post for our Talk the Thrones episode. I don't know. This casual Kristen poetry really gets me.

The promise of this is so exciting to me because like so in this stretch of fire and blood, there are a number of battles which we anticipate we will see the season we've seen one. We anticipate we will see more. But there are also several instances of this sort of like guerrilla warfare, which is sort of like people sniping at each other from, you know, the underbrush. It's not really Kristen Cole's role in the book, but I'm excited to see how this manifests. I think this is potentially very fun as much fun as like... Sweet Sunfire. Killing people is. But like...

Sweet darlingest Kristen Cole. What a cutie puff. Can't wait to see him. Murder a bunch of people from the underbrush. Well, he's like pretty excited about the idea of no dragons, right? Man to man. I can reclaim my purpose. the sense that I have meaning, the ability to have an impact on events and something in my own life?

Which he's been voicing in some capacity for episodes now. And he's right here like, I can put that into action. Cry me a bit of a river, first of all. No question. Secondly, it's very Ormond Hightower. It's just sort of like, we are the superior men. They just have the unfair advantage of dragons. I'm superior to Amon, where the fuck is he?

To Rainira, you know, the woman who dilted me. I am the pure. I am the superior. They have this, like, malformed advantage, you know, and I will rid myself of it. Yeah. The use of pure here was, I'm having such a great time watching Kristen. I think we were meant to be like, a lot when he said that. Well, I mean, like, Kristen, I love this character now in a way that I didn't before, but this guy sucks. Yeah, piece of garbage. I like the, like that on that no home, you know, there's no possibility of no, no, no, no, no home, no return. The kind of combination for Kristen that felt so earned at this point of,

on the one hand, that's the what place does a man have in a dragon world? Like larger sense of existential terror. And then there's the very specific, there's no redemption for me in Renera's realm aspect of that. So she didn't want me at my oranges and cinnamon and she certainly doesn't want me at my doing a coup,

you know? There's no version of it. him she wants around. Incredible stuff. Alan and Roneira, they bond. We talked about this already when talking about the other Allen scene. Is there anything we haven't hit here that you want to touch on? Maybe what Reneiro says about Viseris and the lessons?

Bothers have a maddening capacity to it once inspire and incense, don't you think? Do you think she's talking about Orman's incense? Just kidding. It's entirely possible. I really loved this scene. I thought this is a really beautiful scene. again, I think it's right that we continue to question the Vassaris legacy, having watched him be quite ineffective in a number of different ways and in many ways be his disinclination for conflict being the origin of this massive civil war and all of this. But, you know, we loved Patti.

And there are moments when Vassaris was just sort of like a good guy. And for Reneira to be like, I'm so frustrated by him. But now that I have to sit on his throne, I have more empathy for how fucking hard this job is. New perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was great. And then Alan being there, I'm being like, get some cats, bitch.

And I'm like, yeah. You'll feel better. Thanks for showing me your Legos. A Lego set of Old Valeria that has become a rat's nest. Is there a commentary there about the rod inside of the Targaryan inheritance? Interesting to think about it. Do you think with that new perspective, Reniro will ever get up at a family dinner and say, oh, this old loves you so deep. I do miss Patty. I really do. A reminder to him,

I think, that even great dynasties fall. This, like, the doom, the number of times that the show is invoking the doom of Valeria as a parallel, which was actively. I mean, HBO in 2030. I do think that's a show they should do for various reasons. This week on the watch, Chris is like fewer Targaryians on the Game of Thrones. And you're like, more. Cataclysm. Let's go. Take me to the 14 Flames.

Let me a different place and a different moment in time. That would be nice. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant. Its fabled empire vanished in a day. The lands of the long summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

That's Tyrion in the text. Then, of course, we have the delightful shared poem recitation in the show in season five, sailing into the doom From Jorah and Tyrion, the city of a thousand years and all that men had learned, Doom consumed it all alike, and neither of them turned. So this idea that Viseras has been citing since literally episode one, this warning. I think Dan Weiss wrote that poem.

That's so good. That poem is so, so, so, so good. Let's give them shit when they forget about the Iron Fleet, but let's remember. The flowers when they nailed it. Wrote beautiful poetry. Game of Thrones used to be great. That seems one of my favorite. Unfortunately, they're sailing towards Tyrion being stuck at a terrible plotline.

But, you know, before he gets there, he sees a dragon. There's some stoneman. Remember when Jora got grayscale? Spoiler. And they just scraped it off. Cut it off. The cut from going into the grayscale to the pie is an all-timer. But Sam is like, I've studied the text and I figured out.

He just kind of scrape it off. He's scrape it off. Shereen's like, good to know. I cut the crust off. It's fine. Oh, my God. I've got the cross off cross. Genuinely bizarre.

Oh, man. Incredible stuff. Back to Eggon and Laris. They've reached Rook's arrest. Agon is holding one of sunfire scales. Sweet. Sweet. Sweet.

Sweet. Sweet. Could also be a practical weapon, perhaps. Oh, weapon. Because I was wondering if you meant it was valuable. I feel like if the golden scales were valuable because like how much would one spend for that. But those shitheads around the carcass would have. They're mis-managing their business.

Yeah. I'll say. They're mismanaging the business because those scales should be worth a lot. Did you think of Dunk and Rave when we watched the youngsters raiding corpses? I did, actually. Yeah. That was nice. I did.

Wasn't nice? It's always nice and we have for calls to connect these stories. But like thinking about, well, so that's like the horrible aftermath of Rick's Rest. Scorched bodies, muddy, bodies, decompose, bodies, all this, sorts of like that. and thinking about Kristen Cole, like the aftermath of battles that we keep sort of like riding through. Yeah, and also just with this is where we walk in and we see the rotting Maly's corpse. This kind of like Targs brought low clarity for Egon this thing. He has to confront and can't deny.

Important. How do you think Ormond would fare at this camp at Rooks Rest? Rodding dragon body, piss and shit everywhere. Literally everywhere. All over the boots. I mean, not well, obviously. Do you know, when Tom was talking about the shit cover boots and he said human feces? That was.

Because I assumed it was like horse or something like that. You'd think that was like Janos was stomping around in human shit? Very tough. Well, they never tell you how they all shit themselves when they die. So if they're walking through this corpse field, I mean, it's entirely plausible. Oh my God. That was so fucking gnarly. Do you think dragons like release their bowels when they die?

I mean, it's a great, it's one for the philosophers, but also, frankly, a practical question that this show should consider at some point. Something you think about. You know, in the Ormond, I don't understand actually, like, how he is with an army of 15,000, if he's this sensitive to. He has his own silken tent. I mean, yeah, he's always hit them over there. Yeah, he's hitting the snuff. But, like. Oh, the snuff.

It just seems like it should be a, it's unbearable for him, which I guess it is. He's recoiled in horror multiple times already through just four episodes. of screen time. He has three episodes for him, I think. Laris is like this garrison, stop talking about it. They all have their own agenda. You can't rely on the garrison they're Cole left behind. He appeals to the

Janos that kind of like want to be in charge of this. Tom, Winolew is this. Tom Tangletong is here. This is a book character, so this is exciting. And this is where Laris is like, I have knowledge of herbs and I can read. And we had the same reaction, which was let's fuck. Hot.

Hot. This is got so good. You're illiterate and you know herb lore. I know. You're basically a witch. I'm into it. They were all laughing and I was like, this is just... Hot as fuck.

It got him out of piss and shit duty. It sure did. Yeah. And it got me like, I can read too! Too little too late. Very, very tough. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man.

This July, we're faced with a threat. I can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Talk to Banner?

I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day. In theaters, July 31st. Care for your skin, like you care for the game. Dove Men Plus Care is an official sponsor of the FIFA World Cup, 2026 and has just dropped their new limited edition deodorin and antipersprint collection for 72 hours sweat and odor protection helping you stay fresh from kickoff to the final whistle

visit dove.com slash CA slash EN slash men dash care to shop now turmoil in Tumble Tim da da da cat returns home to leos with supplies finds the soldiers making merry talking about how things were better going to be better here than they were in Honey Holt. Honeyholt, Joanna? Listen. Lord Ormond didn't cake walk up the mandor.

Like, he didn't just walk up the mandor with all these soldiers by his side. He had to, like, encounter some resistance upon his journey up. Yes. Who's the hero of that resistance, do you ask? I say, it's Alan Beesbury. Alan Beesbury pissed off about what happened to Linesbury. Lyman Beesbury. That's right.

He's a grand sire. As he should be. Yeah. As he should be. Says, fuck you, Greens. Where is Lyman Beesbury dead, the first casualty in the Dance of Dragons, if you recall. Death by Smallball. How can I forget? Quote.

Lord Arm. Only to find himself set upon by Sir Alan Beesbury and Lorne Allen Tarley. Shout out the Tarley. That's right. Well, Tarley, you're still with us. Though commanding far fewer men, the two Allens harassed him. a night, raiding his camps, murdering his scouts, setting fires in his line of march. This is what I mean by guerrilla warfare exists elsewhere.

So, right. Didn't go all the way well for the Allen's, unfortunately, Alan, Tarley, and Beesbury, but they put up a fight. So I wear this honeycomb earring in honor of House Beesbury. Will the insults against House Beesbury in the Thrones? Television universe never cease. Beesbury spent off when? Rested Beesbury.

I mean, literally. Yeah. in their funeral treatment. Rest and bees. Still not over, though, we didn't get more bees in Nine of Seven Kingdom. Buzz, buzz, bitches. I would like it a Beesbury spinoff. I would like House Beesbury to be heavily involved

in a future Dunkin Egg season. That would be great. We talked about this potential Beesbury involvement, like years ago. Way more than made sense in various trailer bonds over the years. And for what? When are the Allen's showing up? God damn it.

But frankly, if we hadn't done it, then who would have ever given them the shine that they deserve? My goodness. Yeah, the Battle of Honeywine, which is something that happens to the book that doesn't happen here. Sad. Sad. We'll talk about that a little bit more later. But, like, yeah. So Ormond's forces have, like, encountered some resistance of the mandor.

And as they made the way, through the reach and they either sort of, like, decimated Team Black or absorbed them. And, you know, he's like, green jerkins for everyone, join the team. you know, here we are. So apparently, Garek was, you know, doing a rape or two in Honeyholt. I have no doubt. I hate to hear it. I have no doubt. To hear it.

Garrick tells Kat needs to inspect the goods. Disgusting. Every single person, both in this scene of television and watching at home, knows what is about to happen. Everybody tenses in the room. Yeah. Send the girl out the way that, you know, Darren later will be like, get out. That's right. That's right.

Another attempted rape here. Garrik then breaks Leo. wife's arm, Leo gets involved. This is one of the many moments in this episode that brought Jora's famous season three line to mind, beast in every man, right? Have you ever seen a war where innocence didn't die by the thousands? I was in Kings Landing during the Sack, Calisi. You know what I saw? Butchery, babies, children, old men, more women raped than you can count. There's a beast in every man and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand. Given the number of times that, you know, a Gawain and Kristen conversation has centered on the idea of Beasts. Becoming Beasts before the end.

This is something that the show is obviously centering. And to your point from earlier, the atrocity of war, the horrors of war, are manifesting in a number of different respects here. Ormond in Tumbleton saying, my men will behave and I will protect you. And then going through the theater of judgment after learning about this. loves theater. All of the different degrees of horror here are... Real. Very tough. Theater kid energy. That really is...

Yeah. Yeah. When he fixes his hair after his tantrum... Oh, my God. That's a great. That's just actually an incredible moment. James Martin's killing it. Crushing.

Killing it. Hugh. implores for Nara to send him to Tumpleton. We transition directly from that threat to Hugh's wife into a moment with Hugh. He comes in and he says to her an era who's studying the map doesn't have yours, has to make do with the role in Wendwell. whiteboard there. Shabby. Busing in the ears back from episode three, here again in a couple moments including this one. Worrying. Thinks he's here, as you noted earlier for her house. She's

like, do you think the buzzing in her head is the ghost of Alan Beesbury being like, where's my role in this show? Justice for Leibman. Maybe. Good be. He's like, no, that's not why I'm here, actually. I heard you're sending Ulf to Templeton. No fuck. Now, Reneer has a very reasonable response to this. Yeah, your wife's there. You told me your wife's there. Ulf has no stake in it. Yeah.

Hugh manages to spin this and convince Renair, he says, that's why you should send me. I'm not going to tire of keeping watch. Yeah, and Reneer's like, why not both? And you know what? I think it should be more than just a two dragon rotation. Because like the idea that it was ever just supposed to be Olf sitting on that dragon day and night, what are we talking about? So like, can it just be like a different dragon a day?

You have a lot. I know. Right. That some of our other dragons are out. Looking for vagars, looking for sheepy. But like she's got a lot of dragons. Does she want to take a turn on Sunfire? On Syrac?

Yeah. I mean, Chris Ryan's not here. I know the dragon. The dragon math gets thin quickly when you start to divide the ranks to think about all of these different tasks. I will not tire of watching when one I love is below, Hugh says. Reneiro is all right.

You guys keep an eye on the town and each other. And then we cut to Ulf, who, as we mentioned, not read clearly because this graffiti is here and he's like, here's somebody mentioned that it's disgusting and leans in and then hopefully another member of Kings Landing is like... But just like shout out Tom Bennett, who just like gives such a great performance of like pretending he knows what it says while also eagerly listening to find out what it says. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's just like, sensational. Sensational. It has been for a minute one, but just in this episode in particular, I thought excellent. Queen of Basters with the strong

sigil right next to it. Three strong boys. Stop. And like, you know, we, this is crazy. This is crazy to me because it's like, I don't know who's, you know, got the graffiti paint out there in Flea Bottom, but like, that's a level of specificity in the graffiti. The strong sigil. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously, it does not sit well with Renaro when she learns about it.

It also makes us think back, I think, to that argument between Reneer and Corliss last episode because the way that Reneer handled her relationship with Corliss and his expectations, and desires there, we still have notes, but not wrong. Not wrong to be worried about, you know, this, this, this, this, it feels directly related. It's plagued her. Yeah. And she knew it would continue to. And she got to worry about Jof. Sweet Jaff. Um, sweet Jophe. And then also goes to the tavern. He goes to the bar. I love this scene because like, like, his friends are like, oh my God, you're a big, rich dragon writer now. Look at your velvets and, and like, drinks for everyone. And I was like, oh, that's not what I meant. Dries for everyone. But, but I

I love that sequence because it's like, Ulf was like, oh yeah, like, where's my castle, right? Where are my riches? And Rainer is like, well, pay you when we can pay you. So like, maybe that was all of his money. You know what I mean? He's like, but he cannot admit to them that he's not as rich as, you know, he's pretending to be. He's like, oh, I'm a big important dragon writer now.

They're like, great, you buy drinks for everyone. He's like, yeah, definitely. I am swimming in money for sure. Right. Also, did you see that Cheese's Dog was there? I still am not over. Hashtag Cheez's Dog lives. I'm not over that dog getting kicked.

That was so painful and horrible to watch. Living it up in the pub. Just being cuddled by sweet, sweet, sugar puff, cheese's dog. Never flew into battle anyway. Oh, man. Sweetest, grumptious darling, Cheez's dog. I do love that dog. Sweet puppy.

Sweet poppy. Kat's family appeals to Ormond. As you noted already, in plain sight of many a same daylight in Daywalk or that too. Ormond is clock in. People of Tumbledin are seeing this. They're listening. It's a kind of awareness that Reneer could have used in her conversation with Coralie's when, you know. Yeah.

I mean, again, I think Corley's was the. the sort of imprudent actor inside of that conversation. But if she had been like, hey, quick pause, let's retire to my chambers to have this conversation. You know what I mean? Like, because there are people right over there. She did not know he was going to scream, bastards. Let's go to the small council chamber and just leave the door open.

I'm sure no one will listen. Nuss. What's wrong with everyone? But, yeah, but Ormond, on the other hand, is just sort of like, Oh, time was in theater. Exactly. They're listening, and so I will tell them that this is wrong and not to be tolerated and the gelding and the arm breaking and we will protect you. I'm going to have a maister tend to your wounds before bringing you in to have Darren kill you, Leo.

We do find out that Leo is a smith. That's right. So you think Kat's like, oh, my brother's a smith. I'll marry a smith sort of thing. It's entirely possible. Okay. Yeah. And he's like, but my smithing business is not going well.

And now you broke my Baker wife's arm. Terrible. Sucks. Terrible. Roneira, consults O'Rwhile on the Fath. This was a fascinating scene. I really liked this. I'm into these two together.

Set that or while on the... I need all the information about correspondence between Ormond and the Red Keep, Ravenstrel Mission, right? And then after that, asks, how much control do the Hightowers have over the Fath? And it's very clear that this confrontation, an interaction that became a tense confrontation with Highsepte and Ballman last week in the throne room, last episode in the throne room, has Reneira concerned. And it is something that Reneira is taking seriously his warning, right? Orwell notes the Old Town ties endowing the starry sept, the centrality of the seven to the High Tower identity, which we, of course, have talked about for three. seasons now of covering the show. But control? No. And he makes a dragon comp in terms of the centrality to the identity, which I thought was just really interesting in terms of like

respective core aspects for the Targaryens, the dragons, the high towers, the faith. But also what they perceive is like a source of strength, right? Well, dragons have always been a metaphor for power inside of George R. Martin's writing, right? And so like this idea of like what are other sort of like sources of power that. that are used as cudgels. And if you think about like the faith militant and stuff like that is a more overt example. But obviously, like the church in our world across time and space has been used as, you know, a way to manipulate and, you know, some good things as well. But also historically, politically, also some very negative things or just a way to hold on to your power.

tap into this sort of like, because what is at the core of faith is like fear, you know, in terms of like, why do you look for answers, religious answers? Why do you look for a God and something like that? It's this, it's this like fear in the universe. You're looking for comfort. You're looking for guidance. You're looking for answers of like my existence. My existence is, is upsetting. Things happen. What are the answers? How can I find comfort? How can I find guidance? and there are so many bad actors throughout history who have used that vulnerability inside of people to be like, and now I control you, you know? And so that idea of like dragons is power and the faith is power and the Targs. This is a Targaryen civil war, but it's also like a Targ-Hight Tower civil war.

And so like I also think it's interesting when you have someone like Renera who's talking about the gods in a way that she seems like a true believer in the gods, right? She's like, as you mentioned earlier, the gods will rightly sort of smack me down if I do this, that, or the other thing. And then for Ormond to be such a pretender, you know, this. Yeah. I think that, I think those contrasts are really interesting. But yeah, these two examples, these two metaphors for power. Yeah. And how are they wielded by these two teams? And two, in this case, that are in conflict with each other, like hearing High Septon Balman last week in a very ormadesque capacity, talk a lot of shit about dragons of the Targaryens.

There's a, there's a tension there. They're at odds with each other. This other thing I want to say about Orwell and his centrality in this episode, which I think is interesting, like his increasing centrality inside of this show is that he is like one of the de facto sources in fire and blood, right? Like, we must be grateful to Grandmaster Monke in for it was his true telling based in large part on the account of Grandmaster Orwell, etc.

etc. So Orwell as a source inside of this story that George Norman is written, so Orwell as witness to so much is essential. Absolutely. I liked that she revealed this to, the high septum refuses to anoint me aspect to Orwell because on the one hand, he's on the small council at this point. The information is sort of something that he needs to possess. They have to have a sense of the board, right? People play the board before them. But also there's a vulnerable aspect to that. And it should. goes not only, I think, a kind of desperation to have anybody who she can talk to and rely upon outside of just Masaria and her prisoner, Allison, right? But also maybe like a, I see something here that feels like a little ember we contend, right? That there's the capacity here for a trust that I could nurture. Yeah. You need to do a murder? I could maybe be on board if you need to be.

Great stuff. They're bonding. Nice to see a, nice to see a friendship forge in real time here. What did you actually make of that question that he asked her that you mentioned earlier? Like, does it matter? They won't annoy you. You can't see your coronation. Does it matter? Like, do you think he's right that it doesn't matter? I think it's possible that there's a path forward where it doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that like it doesn't matter at all, but I think Renira is letting it matter more than if she's just sort of like, I am Rainira. Yeah. I am the queen. I decide what matters. I decide what Carrie is the most important, you know. But I understand why, again, like, she's journeyed through life being told that, like, a woman can't set the iron throne and all these other things. And so she feels like she needs all these other things to sort of bolster her up and justify her claim and all these other things that she's talked about. That she alone is not enough.

That she needs the faith to annoy her. That she needs, you know, Agon's head on a spike. She needs all these other things. And it's just sort of like, Rainier, you have so many. dragons. I know. It is so fascinating because, like, being anointed wouldn't stop any challenges, you know? But, and Egon that like, you know, all the, every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him idea that we talked about so much at the end of season one into season two, where'd that get egg on, ultimately? Right. But not having it makes something feel more tenuous, even though having it doesn't make

it stronger. It's this fascinating like this kind of need to latch on to anything that feels like it gives you a stronger foothold, even though no foothold in this moment in time for these characters can be anything but like a a perch that potentially crumbles. But yeah, it is

that double standard of like, again, going back to the great council's decision, the great council decides Vesera should rule. And everyone's like, okay, Vesaris is king. If the great council had decided that Rainey should rule, no question. It would have been a much harder road for her. It's not just like, oh, the great counsel said so. It's like the great counsel said so. You're a woman. Like, prove it. You know, so.

It's different. Yeah. Renera has an entire lifetime of proof that all, when Vassarra's named her air, all of those lords sat there in the throne room and pledged. Did it fucking matter? Or is the dance of the dragon's happening right now? Was Egonne Crown King? They make you fucking swear and swear and swear. So yeah, Renera has every reason to believe that anyone will take any excuse to that's a challenge. Damon. Up in the veil. back in his favorite murder den and we're back in our favorite milk den shout out lies on sweet rabbit now and always

what do you think is more top of mind for folks in the veil with Damon back the murder of his former wife or his commentary on men in the veil fucking sheep because the women are so ugly

when do you think people are more focused on I think people remember the murder more than they remember because Damon has said so many cutting things and he's really only murdered one wife So funny. That's not a spoiler. That's just a joke.

Oh, man. Damon and Jane, they're both pretty dissatisfied with the state of this partnership so far. This scene was so entertaining. This is really fun. Really great. And again, I loved hearing Claire talk about, like, how do I, you know, make this work with, like, Damon down here and her up there.

And, like, I love the way that Matswith was, like, leaning on the, like, moon door sort of, like, rim thing. And I thought it was really well done. Jane is a political animal. Yeah. I like her. Jane's tough. A candy operator. Yeah.

Jane is a no bullshit character. You know, one of our listeners made this point, but like Jane Aaron ruling in the veil and Joanna Lannisterer being the de facto ruler over in Cachley Rock, like, there are these women examples of Sabbatha fray, the twins. Like there are these examples of women ruling in Westeros and like how do they operate in a way that it works in the way that it's not working for Rennira in Kings Landing? Yeah, and what will people tolerate in a realm but not on the iron throne? But yeah, like, we, you know, that was one of the reasons in addition to the family ties that Jane supported. But it's like the Lannisters, they're team green. But Jane all alone there with just her dogs and she's just like not really that intimidated by Damon. No, fucking rode a horse.

A horse torn sheepstealer. A couple episodes ago, baller. Baller. Damon, I just want to say, I know he was there to get money. that's the mission. However, I think that you should say, you pledged us, you didn't send your swords. Not, we're broke. It's expensive business. We demand payment. Not, oh, Hightower Truttery, we're, we're, we are easily duped and we're adults and we, like, the coffers are empty. We were not prepared for that. Damon just took the wrong kid home. Like, Damon, not the clever one in the room, Torren Manderly. Absolutely not. Also, so on Talk to Thrones, I was talking about how, like,

I thought the reports from her various vassals was just seeing, citing Karaxis fly across the Vale. But my understanding now is that Damon was there to collect, he collected money from other houses as well. Because it says, like, later when he gets back in the small councils, they're like, what did Damon get from the other houses? So, like, he wasn't just, like, the veil was the last stop. So, like, at that point, she already knew that he was out there with his tin cup begging for coin. And yet Masaria later is still basically like a small amount of coin, small dick. At the small council meeting. Did she say that?

I think in essence, yes. Okay. I think in essence, yes. Yeah, the beggar with a tin cup line, I don't think Damon is a character who's going to be content for long to be sent on missions where people, where he has to stand there and have people call him a beggar with a tin cup. Nope. Not really Damon's vibe.

Once again, Damon, not my diplomat that I'm sending around. Where's James when you need them? I understand that Jace is dead. Dead. But stuff. Is there someone, is there literally anyone else we can send? I mean, is there literally anyone else who said? Bela, I bet would do a better job.

Bela would be great. I liked when Damon was kind of like a little carrot, little stick. The sooner you give me the money, the sooner I'm gone, carrot, but also the stick of like, you don't want me around. You don't want to fuck with me. Nice realm here. Be a real shame if something happened to it. My long neck boy is parked right outside.

Well, speaking of Karaxies, it's time for Damon to discover Raina's secret. This was just an incredible, genuinely incredible great scene. and stretch. Damon is affixing the coin to Caraxias's saddle and the bloodworm screeches and takes off. And we talked about the Suntax of Thrones, but the deliciousness of as Damon is about to say, like, a wild dragon, you can't control him. Demon Targaryen, fabled warrior, long time, very experienced dragon rider, also being in a situation where his dragon is like, and he's literally shouting in High Valerian serve me,

shouting like a cuck into the wind. And Karaxis is just like, I'm going to do what I want. So when Amon... Shat, like a cock and to win this talk. I'm sorry. I'm really fucking tough. Serve me, but serve me is what obey me, serve me is what Aiman said. What Raina said.

You know what I mean? Obey, obey, obey. And Amid was still at that point relatively, relatively speaking, unseasoned on Vagar. Yeah, and Vagar is just like a, like, Karaxies and Damon have been together a lot longer. Yeah, it's been a minute for Raina and Sheepy when they head into the gullible. it literally a minute. Just one. But yeah.

And Craxies. So the dragon control, the hubris of control here it is again. Do you think Craxies was like most like, hey, Damon, you want to see this? Most about sheepstealer or most about Raina? Like, hey, one of your bloodline is over there in that cave. Do you want to know about it? All of the above.

Sweet. Sweet curaxies. Sweet bloodworm. Darling Caraxies. Sweet darling sugar. Oh my God. Heraxies. I really, really love...

This was interesting to hear them talk about on House of the Dragons built, too. They're filming in whales. They have this gorgeous like quarry, but still they had to build the actual mouth of the cave that they needed because dragons are gigantic. Yeah.

You know? It was kind of fascinating. I loved that shot of the fire. Sheep Steelers fire. Walking out. Yeah. Bathing Raina in the flames. Walks toward her father,

who is astounded and, dismayed and beside himself in a way that we are very unaccustomed to seeing from Damon. Very flustered. Damon Targaryen flustered. Not something we've seen a lot of. Flabbard, gassed, you know. I found this incredibly compelling. Yeah.

I loved this. This was great. In general, Joe, Damon as dad, it's good and we should have more of it. I mean, the, it made me think back to that, like, the cut scene that we saw and maybe the inside the episode or house the dragons spilled or something back in season one on Pantos after Lena's death, that's the shot of him, like, hugging the girls. We were like, where was this in the actual episode? I mean, just, like, have literally not, like, we've barely seen...

When, when Rana's, like, Bela's your favorite, I'm like, kind of. I mean... Just so, like, reading to her and you're a dragon rider. One scene. Yeah. One scene. Yeah. So I don't, I don't discount her feelings, but, like, he's been a pretty

crap father to everyone, including his blonde babies and including his stepdad to Jason, and all this sort of stuff like that. Like, he's just, that's, I think it's, I think it's fun to watch Damon as a father, but I just don't think we've gotten any of that. And mostly what this scene relies upon is the absence of any impact on Raina's life or acknowledgement of Raina, and that is ultimately effective here. But in terms of the comp, then you're right, with the other kids.

I thought it was interesting when he's like, you were supposed to be with the other kids. Oh my God. That he was definitely thinking, that's the line of prophecy. Oh, no. Who's watching the little blonde babies? How is that? Oh, man.

Yeah, she says he is mine. He is a part of me. He's like, you know, we'll leave blah, blah. She's like, I was trying to help Jace. He's like, fuck, he killed Jace. It sucks. What are we going to do with Reneira? Oh my God.

That reaction was so good for Mousness. I mean, he didn't really care about Jace, but he knows Reneer cares about Jase. So all of that is happening. And I thought this email we got from our listener, Alex, is really interesting. He's talking about the season one conversation between Corlis and Damon, when they're talking about being the realm's second sons, It's not literally in Corliss's case, but just sort of like this idea of like their worth is not given but must be made.

And how much this is Raina's own feeling, like that she is the second daughter, the second son and that she doesn't have a dragon. So she has to make her own, you know, very much the aim and parallel, of course. Yes. But I love this part of Alex's email. The tragedy of Raina being that she was abandoned by two men, father and grandfather, which should easily identify with her feelings. But we're too busy or not present to ever consider her is very compelling. And I feel it in a way justifies the adaptive change of her claiming sheaths dealer and replacing the book character Nettles within this show. And I agree.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's why both in this scene, the pain, the turmoil that we're seeing in Damon, realizing what this means for his kid. And then ultimately, of course, the choice he makes to help Raina to choose Raina to lie to Ranier. It's a choice as a father that we have, I agree with you, not seen enough of. But it's a winning thing, even though it's very worrying, of course. course in terms of the... I'm going to say something about Nettles and I'm going to ask you whether or not you think it's okay to like leave in the episode.

Okay. Which is like in the book because they're not doing the Nettles storyline in the book. Right. But in the book there's this question of like what is Damon to Nettles, right? Is she his daughter or is she his lover? Right. That's a question. Left up to the history to decide.

Right. The more cuddly version of Damon is that it's his daughter, right? Not just that he like saw a hot young Dragon Rider and was like, fuck it. He's like, this is my daughter. So I'm going to, you know, protect her from Rainira. That's the cuddlier version of Damon. And I have seen some critiques from people who don't like this nettle swap that they're like, forever the show is choosing to find the cuddlier version of Damon in like, not forever. But like in some of these instances, like, air for a day or like, did he really kill his first wife or did her horse just get spooked?

Like all these things that like some of the worst things that Damon did, the show is like, but what if it wasn't that bad? And so like this is just another, like when we watch Damon protect Raina, we're like, oh, Damon is a father? Damon flustered. This softens him. But like, is it giving Damon too much of a soft landing when? book Damon is a much more of a a bastard's character. I don't think you could watch Damon in the show and say like this guy isn't a

bastard in many different ways. But like I do remember that from early seasons. People are like, why are there, why is there all these like shortcuts and excuses for for Damon in some of his worst moments? Yeah, it's funny. Like I feel like my read on the early, my knowledge may vary with this. I think that's especially true in an adaptation like this where there's a lot of open to

interpretation relationship to the character on the first place. my relationship to show Damon was actually quite a bit, like was the other side, was the opposite, that the show went out of its way often, Damon choking Reneera at the end of season one, for example, to say, like, this guy's a piece of shit, actually. And so I find myself, because I think as a, you know, I would have, heading into House of the Dragon would have said, Damon is my favorite character. I'm the character I'm most excited to spend time with.

Like a compelling character. Yeah, compelling. Not like I root for this guy. He's lovely, but like, what a fascinating figure. And so I think the moral ambiguity of Damon and the outright sometimes atrocities that he has committed, the horrors and the guilt and the shame, not everybody had the patience for him to be at Heron Hall for as many episodes as he was. And I understood that, even though I think we both really liked it. But I think that was rooted in a desire for Damon to try to exercise these demons that have plagued him.

So I'm in the other, I understand why people feel that way, certainly, but I'm in the other camp with it where I actually find myself like bowled over by gratitude almost. Because we've had lots of moments of charm from Damon, but still paired with a kind of cold calculus. And there's a calculus here, too. No question, both in the decision he makes with the goat herder and then the decision he makes with Reneira. But I find myself, like, thinking here about the something is awoken in Damon here that feels paramount to him. And, like, he cannot bring himself. He finds himself in a state of hypocrisy, which is interesting, right? Saying, what did we hear him say to Reneira last episode about Vassaris?

renounced his dragon. That was the term he used. And he is telling Raina here to do exactly that. Renounce your dragon. Just you, sailor, who needs it? He's totally out of sorts. He's flustered. He's contradicting his own kind of core beliefs, right?

And core philosophy. Because he's so scared for her. Thinking of like the apparition, the vision of ghostly Lena at Harenhol in season two saying, like, have you looked after our girls, which is not a thing that he has ever done? And being confronted with the undeniable threat to his kids. kid there? I just think I like this nettles, Raina Nettleswap. Personally, I'm not opposed to it. And I wasn't, I don't remember being mad about those others or like Damon moments that people sort of point to. But I do think there's like a little bit of connective tissue missing between

that Lena. I agree with that. For sure. And Herald and him being so backfooted about Raina here. I would have liked one more scene with Raina and Bela, maybe that cut scene from season one. or something else, which sets me up for he would care so much about her in this moment when he has shown no indication. I don't dispute or challenge that at all. I agree with that. I just think. I know that's a different type.

Yeah, Damon is still ultimately making a complicated choice here. So I don't, I didn't come out of this like cuddly Damon. I came out of this as complicated demon. You have some humanity. Sweet, I mean, going and immediately roasting the goat herder and then just lying to Mara. I love to. I love that the button of the scene of him being flustered is him giving the most evil I'm going to kill that guy, Lear off a cliffside. Like, I agree. And I think it's, I think that complication inside of him, the conflict inside the human heart. All of that is the only thing worth writing about white good. I do think I don't, I think 1,000% by how flustered he is in this arena moment, you know? Yeah, it is interesting to parse that. And I think, well, Carlos, let's see this clip and then talk about maybe what is driving his.

the extent of his emotional reaction here for another, another beat. Come back with me then to Kingsland. No. We will speak to her together. We will tell her it was a mistake. How can I ever stand before her again after what I have done? No, I can never return. I will remain here alone.

And in exile, that is my penance. She will hunt you down. Is hunting now. So I think there is, part of what is going through his mind is about Raina. A lot of it, I think, is about Ramira. And just in general, Damon, receiving the prophecy, working through his Heron Hall therapy with the Saris,

with his own mother, with Lena. Everything that transpired there for him was about the vision that he saw when he touched the where all of it was about the Targaryen line and family. So there's something like, I don't know if I viewed this as much as like, oh my God, my paternal instinct has awoken at last completely. I think that's there. And I agree with you that more building toward that helps us maybe accept that more fully. But a little bit of a, our children will rule it for, you know, an entirety in a day, whatever.

Like, he's thinking about their dynasty. This is a civil war and then civil war inside of their family faction. I think he's overwhelmed by how destabilizing this could be for everything that he's trying to achieve. and that they're trying to achieve. I think that's at play too, right? But I definitely think that... I think most people's interpretation of the scene is like, oh, Damon cares about his daughter. That is the primary.

Right. The primary thing, I think. But I don't know. It's like, what should he do? Say, okay, Reneira can kill her? It's just a lot of bad dad too late stuff from Corley's being like, Alan, you get to sit on my chair, bad dad too late. And Damon being like, baby, I care. Yeah.

I mean... And Rain is like, bad dad too late. And I loved hearing Raina challenge him that way. Yeah, for sure. Because for sure, I just, I don't know. I don't dislike the scene. I just need to think about it more, I think. Yeah, wasn't earned enough, I think is a completely fair question.

Raina the unfortunate I quite liked both in terms of just calling Damon out and not being present enough for her and the way that she felt so on the outside of the Targaryen legacy. But also just like the idea of, you know, Magor returned. or nearer the cruel, like, we think about these, the blue queen, the subricet, yeah. And like when that can be, when the language of legacy and identity is used to actually show that something is not working that you haven't achieved the thing that you wanted to, that people have made you feel on the outside. I always like when the show does that.

Time for Ormond's meltdown. He's making a custom blend. What do you think he's putting into this? Do you think he mixes up the scent? You know, you asked at the beginning of the season, what would we? we put in ours? How often is he making a kind of custom blend here? If Ormond, we're alive right now, he'd have a real Doterra problem. Do you know about Dutera? I have like these essential oil blends that you can, like, I have friends who are like deep in the Doterra cult. I see.

I have a personal preference for a Deterra blend. It's like a very like orange cinnamony spicy thing, a very Kristen Cole sort of special. I just got a simmer pot and I got cinnamon sticks. Uh-huh. Vanilla extract oranges and a couple other spices to try to put in it. I haven't used to it. I love that diffuser lifestyle personally. Not the re-diffuser, but the sort of like steam diffuser thing. Anyway, big fan. What is Ormond? I mean, that looks like paprika, to be honest with you, but that does not seem like it would offer up some very delicious smell.

So like maybe some mace, some clove. Clove would be nice. Star, Anise. Delightful. You know, something you think about? Maybe just changes it based on the mood. The mood's always the same with this guy. It's always bad.

It's always bad. Seems bad. When we mentioned like sort of what is going to happen. with Ormond and his smell thing. Yeah. Our listener Mikhail wrote in to say, I just need you to know that your Talk to Thrones comment about dropping dragon shit on Old Town was in my feed,

followed by the ad break, which began for adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. That's what we call on integration. There you go. Incredible. Bold John enters,

presents Gawain's letter, and this is when Ormond finds out that Amynevigar are not coming. In fact, he reacts very well. And Darren clocks while Ormond is still reading, what is the event to happen. So his power of observation, but also, of course, what this tells us on deniably about his experience with Ormond. And also, in a, so this is like a benign comp. This is obviously very disturbing sequence.

But it reminded me of, you know, Mary Poppins when they're like quite used to the cannons going off and everything in their house. And they're just sort of like places. And they carry on their conversation while they stand in place to like hold this bust or hold the piano or hold this. They like, they know where to go when this, this routine explosion is going to happen inside of, you know, the bank's household in Mary Poppins. So, like, again, that's like a cuttier version of this horrible temper. But, like, the way that that both John and Ormond, like, take a step back. Yeah. And then, and then John just goes to, like, put the chair back in place.

You know what I mean? It's just sort of like their job is to pretend this didn't happen and put it all back. when it's over. I don't know, replace the table so that he doesn't even have to see the, you know, the damage that he caused.

Like, their job is to keep everything right where it was because we don't acknowledge that these explosions happen. They just happen. And we put it all back and keep going from there,

you know? Ooh, man. Ooh. And it's just little, like the little detail of John just like putting the chair back, I thought was such a good moment. And then like, again,

the incredible, performance from Darren of just sort of like the body language. Wanting to shield this innocent, yeah, from being in the blast radius of this was obviously very impactful. I thought the lingering, you mentioned the kind of tears in the eyes, the lingering shot on Darren in the face of this. And the fact that even though that rhythm, that routine we go about our business is undeniable, the horror that Darren feels in the face of this, like he's not been,

there's not like a muted response that he has to this. It has like a, I think we see in his eyes not just fear, which we see elsewhere from him, you know, when he's backing up in the sept. But I think for revulsion, like this certainly does not strike us as his behavior that Darren admires. That seems, I think, fair to say. I will just say without getting too much into it, like, my experience with this is that it doesn't, that doesn't never get easier.

It actually just like kind of compounds. and there's this feeling of like helplessness and just sort of like, but how do I make myself as quite and as small and as compliant as possible so that like it doesn't land on me? And what I do love about Darren, like Darren in that earlier sequence, looking sort of like hopeful after the like, we're going to gel this guy. And Darren's just like, oh, justice. We're doing it. It's going to be fine, you know?

And then he's like, oh, no, same as it fucking ever was with this guy. I will make myself as quiet and as small and I'll just put my hands behind my back and I am not. I cannot be a target. But also what I like about Darren is that he's like, I'm not going to let someone else be the target. I'm going to try to protect someone else. I'm going to try to get someone else out of the room. You know what I mean? Because there are other ways in which one can in the face of abuse try to like redirect it elsewhere.

And Darren's just like that's not who I am. And again, like my fan fiction that I've written is that if something like that happened, it would be like Gawain telling Darren like get out of here. You know, like, this is coming. Like, Gawain was that insulation that Darren is now trying to be. And this is the scene, this Ormond outburst scene when Darren asked, so hopefully, is Gawain coming? Is Galadryl here? Is the Gwain coming?

To Dumbleton. Ulf. Has a request. Do you want to hit, this is actually where Orwell tells Reneer that Ormond never replied to Otto. Do you want to hit your theories here? Like, is there more, this is, okay. So our listener, Luca, Luca, who is a long time throne's expert, the best love Luca.

Rode in to remind us that in Season 2 episode 1, Otto reported on Orman's movements and intentions. And after Otto was gone, Jasper Wild reported on Arman's march through the reach. So is Orwell lying? Did the show forget? What was that scene for anyway? Just so Orwell can say Orman rules old town like his own kingdom to set up Orman raising Darren's claim to the throne.

And at the end of the episode, maybe, etc., etc., et cetera. Luca wrote in with a glass candle theory, which I really, like a real crackpot, knows its crackpot, like sort of glass candle theory, this idea that, like, Ormond is communicating that way. But I, there's something afoot here. Like, there's just zero possibility that Ormond. So I don't know if it is that Orwell's lying or if there was some other, like, way or,

or were the scrolls burned, where the records burned, like, DeLaris did someone hide them? Yeah, DeLaris when he was stashing Otto also hide. I think Orwhile lying is definitely a possibility. Somebody hiding or destroying the correspondence so that it could not be handed over is definitely a possibility. All of those reports and accounts of Ormond's behavior or advancement coming from other people, but Ormant himself being like, I don't really like need to spend my time thinking about what Otto is asking me. So it's not filed under, it's not filed under like High Tower Common Ormond. It's like Roxon comma John. Exactly.

Bull John. But, like, Ormond is forever writing and receiving scrolls. This is, like, baths and smelling nice stuff and writing and receiving scrolls is all this guy does. So, like, there's zero chance to me that Ormond never wrote a scroll to Otto. Zero. What if he was using, like, a code name? Different seal so that it couldn't be detected as his? King Ormond.

Detected is legit only by his signature scent on the parchment? King Ormond, exactly. The Ulf pops his head in, like you said. The Sir Ulf is still waiting about. That was so funny. And he started a petition for favors. This was one of my favorite, Renera and Patience's Moment. Sneak them.

Yeah. It's like, I have shit to do and no one to help me do it. Not there to ask favors for himself, though. For his, as he calls them, Joe, allies. Allies. Incredible. His tavern mates, his pal, Mujon Clay. Thank you, Grace.

This is just an incredible moment. On the one hand, kind of wild from Ulf, given that Renira has not actually been able to give him or Hugh or anyone else the things that they've asked for. But kind of like, first of all, admire the hustle a little bit. And also looking after his boys. Yeah. Sort of touching. He's like, okay, if you don't have coin to spend. Yeah.

Show us your pull. Can you at least look the other way? Well, not just for Ulf, for Rainier. Like, you can't afford me? Okay. Can you do some faves for my friends? No tax. No, and...

Pardon the crimes. I don't even get to go back to the tavern. Okay, so let's talk about this. My church? It's my belly. Oh, but it's not. No, you belong now to the crown. Should something befall you or your belly?

I suffer the loss of a dragon and the unity of the realm is threatened. Say it with us, folks. Are you giving your supporters what they need? This is, like, so cold and clueless. I think the fact that Rainer actually believes this is obviously just alarming. But I think the fact that Ranira says it without considering the way it would be received. Well, and it's also Ormond language when he's like that High Tower Man is the physical extension of you to Darren.

Like they're speaking with the same language, same as it ever was. Listen, tough. Yeah. Hate to see it. Very rough. Ulf, like, the fact that we've seen Ulf, like, hug Jace. Jays hated it. Try to hug Damon.

Damon's like, no, thank you. And then get hugs all around in the tavern. And Rainer's like, you don't get to go there anymore. Your favorite place on earth. You have to sit here in the castle with all the rats. Right. And hopefully soon cats. And be sober and miserable.

I'm going to laugh in your face when you say that you want to be named Targaryen, which was a ridiculous request. Let's be honest. Let's be fair. Targaryen? Absolutely not. You only get to leave. You can't go hang with your friends.

I own you, you only get to leave when you're going to do work for my cause. I mean, this is so, so, so rough. But I have to say, bad management, I was even more shocked by the chutzpah of Ulf's reply. Carlos, can we see this? They protest you, you know, out there in the city. I've seen vial words painted on walls. They say, queen of bastards. The work I am sure of some of your misguided subjects

who mistakenly believe their queen to be unkind. Who mistakenly believe their queen to be unkind is such a sub-tweet. Like, it's so brazen, it's so shocking. Reneer could have cut off his head right there. Could have cut off his head right there. But then she loses a dragon rider. Well, there's a lot of... Your belly is not your own.

Got to keep that. that head on that neck. Interesting. Oh, man. Stuff. Wild. From him right on the heels of quarles being. Like, you all sons are bastards.

Like, yeah. Reneira, not a good manager. To have to suffer these challenges from, from everybody around you must be so fucking galling. But yeah, Vernara's making some mistakes. It's just wild. It's not great. Orders Sir Adrian to have Luther find those responsible. And then later in the episode, and again, gives no detailed instructions.

Just make it go away. And then I'll bring them to you. And this, I think, you know, we talked about last episode. I think that like, can anybody else be relied upon to get stuff done? Why are all these people coming to Reneira to say, like, what about the candles? What about the price of wine? So like the, just see to it, I think we kind of understood, given how much it feels like it's directly on Reneer's plate. But yeah, like, what are you setting into motion and what will the consequences of that be? And, you know, it's what we see at the end of the episode with Luther and the gold cloaks,

abusing the citizens of King's Landing to try to identify the graffiti artist throwing, pulling, children away from their parents, throwing people down the stairs, swords coming out. First of all, very reminiscent of Damon and the gold cloaks at the beginning of season one, ACAB forever. But also reminiscent, Joe, of what we're seeing in Templeton, right? All the world's of Tumbledon. The King's Landing citizens are not literal prisoners the way the Tumbledon citizens are, but like, what's the difference, right?

I wanted to read a bit of this email we got from our listener, Lauren, it's quite long. and I'm not going to do the whole, and I already cut it down. It's impossible. Lauren, you're so eloquent and beautiful. But like the, some of which we've already talked about, the Allison and Darren comp, just sort of like the way in which their position is same. The reminders of season one Allison were getting not just with the picked cuticles, but also like the powder blue, you know, night gown that she's in that's very much the color

she was wearing at the beginning of season one, et cetera, et cetera. The framing. People have done these side by sides on like social media of the framing of auto holding Allison's face and Orman holding different. in space. It's like the exact same sort of shot. But Lauren's like larger theme was the danger of expectations of a role overtaking a sense of self. I was thinking about this a lot when I was thinking about Reneira and like Reneer just being like take care of it to the gold cloaks. When Reneera does, I think, care about the people of King's Landing. She just doesn't think through consequences here.

So Lauren says, Alicent is a high tower who was thrust into the role of a Targaryen queen by Otto. Darren is a Targaryen who Ormond is trying to craft into a High Tower King. Both are manipulated by a sense of love to their abusers and a false sense of duty that is what must be done to the further the ambitions of High Tower men towards the throne. Raina and Amund are a good comp. Both were looked down upon his children for their lack of dragons, as it is seen as the role of a Targaryen to be a dragon rider. Both became so transfixed by this feeling of shortcoming and unworthiness. They not only claim dragons, they claim two of the most dangerous dragons. who they then lost control of killing Luke and Jace respectively.

That parallel of like those two killing the two strong boys. Look out, Joffrey. Again, that's a spoiler. It's a joke. Even with Reneera, she believes that the gods have mandated that she must be queen and is at a risk of losing herself trying to become the person she is told she must be. To quote Frigga and Endgame, everyone fails at who they are supposed to be. But to me, House of the Dragons is largely based around what a person gives up

to try to become it. So what has Reneer abandoned about herself or what is she continuing to abandon about herself in order to fill this, like, queen role that she is told that she is supposed to be and she was asked to be. Like, she didn't really want it. Wanted to see a cake and fly on her dragon. Yeah, that's not really what she wanted. But, like, once it was, once she was told about the prophecy, once all these other things, it's like, who she must be.

Yeah. A king or queen has to understand this to sit the throne. And who was Alice? And who was Alicent before Otto set her on this path? And who is Darren that we're in danger of watching him, you know, become eroded? Amon was actually a very sweet young boy, you know? And like, Raina, we barely knew you. So, like, hard to say.

But, like, it's, I think it's really interesting to think about, like, you have to be a badass, the most badass dragon rider, Amon, or else you're nothing in your family, right? And Allison, you have to go seduce the king or else you're not my daughter. Like, all of this shit is. Toxic generational trauma. Yeah. And I mean, a character like Amid, it's like the opposite had as much of a hold on him too. Oh, you're, we're going to mock you, the pink dread.

Right. You know, you don't. So then you have to turn himself into. Yeah. The humiliations of your child. Yeah. I always think, it's a great email and I always think of the Alicent moment with Otto. How could I know?

You know, our hearts not as one conversation. And like, how could I even know what I wanted? You've always told me. Yeah, you always told me. And then Reneera, who had. a sense of that, but that has been subsumed by these other things. And the moments, I think it's part of what's interesting about this story is the complexity inside of that tragedy, because to go back to the cinnamon and oranges and when won't we? Like, that was a moment where Roneer

leaned in and it was like, you know, Kristen's pitch was, this is a burden. It's been thrust upon you. And she's like, this is my fucking birthright. Yeah. Right. Very rich text. Very rich text. Egon. Who grew up feeling completely ignored by his parents. Who masturbated out a window. Had the jack mattress. molested. You sure did.

A maid. Kisses the boot, Joe. Sure does. We got so many emails about this, and I would just like to thank our listeners a plenty. They were all like, do you think Laris is jealous that Agon got to kiss the boot? I'm just going to read these two snippets. Tyler says, was I the only one expecting to see Laris's eyes widened with lust when Agon was told to kiss that dude's feet.

And AJ said, I felt sorry for Laris this episode. Dude is out here working hard and spending all his coin while Agon is two handing dragon hugs and getting into footstuff. Lars is like, that's my thing, man. Footstuff. I don't think Laris has a shit cover boot. A shit fetish. So this was probably not for him.

Yeah, he likes the bear tinsies. The bear toes. Well, remarkable. I just want to think about that. The bad babies are just they always deliver my eyes. goodness. This is where Egon finds out that the realm thinks he's dead and that Eamid is to blame. And it's interesting, unsurprising, given the tension and history between those two brothers that so much of Egon's rage right now is directed toward Amid. Like this is, this would

be unbearable for him that, especially after what actually did transpire at Rook's rest, what Eamond has done to him. And Amid, of course, you know, embarrassed at the brothel, etc. For Amon to in this sick, twisted interpretation of it, basically have gotten the victory, have gotten credit for besting. Agon would just be unbearable for Agon here, clearly.

So he's focused on Amon. He's like not even focusing on Reniro, which is just fascinating. Totally forgets himself, right? Leaves himself vulnerable. Think that the challenge here to Janos is not wise, but as you and Vanbron,

up on Talk to Thrones comes from like a, oh, this is how you run this camp. Right. Right. Kind of interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And also then having to confront, okay, without your dragon, without your name, without your power, without the stature of who you are, how do you inspire, respect, respect, fear, consideration of any sort? It's not even like inspire.

It's like commands. Yeah. He's used to just like demanding and getting what he wants. And now. On the other end of the blade and the lips on the shit-covered boot. From shitty boots to charred heads. Damon has a gift for Reneera. He brings in the goat her to head.

It's very crispy. He pretends it's sheep stealers rider. Can I just say? Before he, so they're small counseling before David walks in. And Reneera is, at first I was like, is she tapping on the table? She's cracking a hard boiled egg. She has a little snack. And it just like reminded me of like, you know, we were talking about the cracker scene in the previous episode.

but I'm just sort of like, this is real, Joanna had a baby bell and a mini-snickers for lunch at the office. I know. Very relatable. Mallory had a crustable. Uncrustible. Like, she's just got, she's eating like hard-boiled eggs and crackers because she's not sitting down for a full meal. She's a lady on the go. The only time she has for full meals is to serve.

Rock banquets. Her guest ratch. Yeah, it's a wrap banquets or snacks. This is it. These are the two options. Great stuff. Or, like, she tries to sit down to a meal with Corillus and he's like, can you give me this impossible thing? She's like, God damn it.

All business all the time. A hard boiled egg very little. It's a good snack, though. Protein rich. That protein rich, wonderful. Yeah, there you go. Protein. Reniro would dig this current protein craze.

She's protein boxing. There's a lot of hilarity in this scene before we get to the conversation, the tense conversation between Renera and Damon. Torin Mandarly pulling his goblet further away from the charred head, probably top of the list. That was so funny. Dan Fuggler is really doing it. It's really doing the thing. Damon looking at him, would you please explain who this is? Yeah.

And then the I'm the clever one exchange. Just incredible. But also this is a big character memory because Damon has chosen to lie to or an era in order to protect his kid. Was the choice to protect the kid? That's what the text is. Fine. Masaria knows. She did say last week she could sniff a lie.

Smells a lie. On it, knows Damon well and does not believe for a second, though, what he's saying here is true. Not for a second. On the Damon Masaria front. Damon wants the goal to go to paying the city watch. Masaria wants it to go to the small folk. And Reneer sides with Masaria here, alms for the small folk. So, like, my question is, can we, like, split the funds?

Split it. Then no one's happy, maybe, but, like, I don't know. I think wanting to help the small folk is good. Yeah. Not paying your cops. Army is bad. Bad. And taking the allegiance and adherence of your pledge supporters for granted

continues to be a concern. Like, she basically says, Damon, you're their guy. Just tell them to like, wait a minute. Yeah. That's not ideal, I'd say. Our listener who identified themselves as grape, I don't know what their actual name is. Maybe it's grape. Could be.

Rode in to mention an anachronism in the text here, which I think is fun because Damon says it'll be Bedlam in the street. Bedlam comes from like the mental hospital of Bedlam, which is, as far as I know, not in West Rose. Meets back on the menu ways, it'll be Bedlam in the streets. Not the Oklahoma, Oklahoma State College Football rivalry game. Bedlam? Oh, I didn't know. So that's where it's called. How long we have to wonder until Masaria shares the suspicion with Renira about Damon or just outright looks for facts?

I think she's going to gather more information before she just goes like, do you think Damon's lying? Because I think she knows. Damon has Renair's ear. Masari has Renier's ear. And I think if she's going to come and say, your closest ally is lying to you, you got to have the receipts. Yeah. But I don't know how you do that other than bringing, like, someone said they saw a sheepstealer? Like, what do you do?

Well, this is part of what, so on that front, I think part of what made me like, oh, boy, nervous for Damon here. And again, as you said, there's like a lot of adaptive changes here. So who knows? Raina's like, okay, I'm going to live a life of exile and flies away. Charges toward Damon and flies away. But, like, Damon just saying, killed the rider, sheepstealer, fled. You're never going to see him again. that seems risky as hell.

At any point she's feeling her in a good fly back. No one else will tell him a wild dragon. Don't worry about it. I just didn't think she was leaving, leaving. I thought she was leaving the cave and planning to come back to the cave. Yeah, when he left. That was Mary too. But even if we go to another mountain, though,

I have to think they built that set, assuming they would use it again. Who knows? I mean, that's just nuts if you're Damon. Like, it's very risky. So Jane Aaron, he says to Raina, he reminds the audience that Jane Aaron knows that. Of course, we saw Jane Aaron and Rain Interact.

Is Masaria going to hit up a little bird? I have some questions. There are other people around there? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. Right. So it's like Masari going to send someone to the bail. Part of being the mistress of whispers is cultivating sources, which like we saw the white worm operate. Masaria has a pension for that, right?

Is good at it. Those, if you're doing this in the seat of power across the realm, you have to have your little birds as Vera showed us everywhere. I feel like Jane is the only possible source here. Or even just someone in Jane's camp who witnessed Raina. But we don't know either. A randau in the male, I feel like one of Jane's dogs. I don't know. You solved it again.

You solved it again. Ormond is a vampire who happens to be a day walker and Jane Aaron's dogs are going to tell Masaria exactly what is going on. That's probably on the season ends. Put me in the writer's dress. Connell, call her. Just make sure you have baby bells. I need the baby bells. They are delicious.

Only in baby bells. String cheese here today. Really? Oh yeah. Immediately you just asked for that like a few days ago. Connor rules. Wow, you command respect. Molly went up to the front counter and she's like, she's made a request.

Incredible team here at Sycamore. And she was just sort of like, what if we had screen cheese? And look on horror on my face. You're like not instead of the baby bells. Never instead of the baby bells. In addition to you. But why? The old why not both?

Protein. The old why not both. And then this little meat sticks. Delicious. That's a you thing. They help get me through the day. as you noted, there's no time for actual meals right now. Our schedules are fucking bat-shit.

That's fine. We're doing great. Everything's good. Reneira has some questions about this head, right? I wanted to see him. I wanted to look on the one who killed my son. To punish him yourself, Damon says. Do you think that would end your grief?

What crumbs of it may be snatched, I will devour. This is what Rennera said to Damon previously about justice. I will never have justice, but what crumbs of it may be snatched, I will devour. So this idea that, like, when you're I didn't get the clarity? Snacks. Snacks. Delicious. What crumbs of the little pita on my snack try made me devoured?

Didn't get closer, didn't get clarity, but also, once again, did not get to exert her agency, right, Joe? I guess, on the one hand, on the other hand, when Otto was in front of her, she's like, eh, I don't want to do this. So, like. Then she did. I mean, eventually. But she did it. Very tense, very tense dynamic between.

I really like what Connell said on Inside the episode, which you wrote in the notes here. But, like, I think Renair is surprised, honestly, by her emotional reaction to it. In the moment, just realizes that she feels cheated out of the satisfaction of taking vengeance herself. You pour that into the next scene, right? When Ronira goes to see Allison, to go from that, to go from her looking at that skull and feeling like, I don't have closure, I don't have vengeance, I don't have whatever, to this gesture for Allison of like, I will send off. Otto's body hears his ring, just sort of like trying, I think, trying to give Allison a crumb of something that she was not able to receive with this barbecued head of a goat herder than she got.

The billowing rage into humanity and the ability to feel like there's some goodness left in the world. I thought it was interesting, too, that Renera in that moment with Allison invoked Vassaris. It's what he would have wanted, which felt like kind of a reminder of this tie that they share, but also like a little bit of a almost like self-preservation shield. Right. He would have wanted. It's also what she would have wanted, but she can't say that.

I'm the bad as queen, but that would have wanted this. Pregnancy reveal. Oops. Helena's pregnant. I do just think this is Agon's kid. I don't think there's any mystery to it. I think the timeline is confusing some people because it's been two years since the show was on. But it has not been that long since Rook's rest.

Since Rook's rest. And like, did it happen right before? Did it happen even like, I don't even think the coronation was that long ago. Like it could have been like a post-coronation cell. celebration fuck from Agon or whatever, then I'm sure Helena deeply enjoyed. But I think she just has Agon's. She's pregnant with Agon's kid. I think so too. And if it's not, the realm will still assume it is so it's a problem either way. But I agree. I think it is, it is almost certainly a guy. I was so taken by what Fia who said about this, about how

Helena feels so powerless in our own life. And this is something that is just hers. Yeah. On not even wanting to tell Allison. Right. And this is something that Van brought up on Talk to Thrones where he's just like, I love this. It just really immediately deepens Helena's character and just like an extremely fascinating way for her to have the secret from Allison, for her to have her own interior life to some degree. I think it's really, really good. And Helena has lost a child. You know, we see what Renira. Remember blood and cheese? It happened. It did. Sure did happen. Renira, the loss of Luke, the loss of Jace, is inextricable from every aspect of Renera's life right now. Did it make you feel better? Did it make you feel

Right. Yes. Yes. Helena asking that. Not only Jehires' death, but Helena in that room, witnessing it, being forced into pointing all of that. Like, what a horrible thing. And so this fear, this is just for me, but also this fear, undeniably. And you see the fear and you see the alarm on Alice's face right away here. Because the realm, there's the question of the realm, right? If this is another heir. And we mentioned not Talk to Thrones, but just to just as a moment. say very quickly again. There's another kid in the books who's like a toddler. So we were like, where's this other kid? The timeline is different. Where's this other kid? The theme is infamous where the butterflies post that had to be

taken down was about many things. Ultimately it was going to be like a six-part series if I recall. Is that right? That might be a prok of all. I don't know. I think that's true. It's like this is part one. Then he's like, oops, HBO legal called me. Unbelievable. So release the other parts. Again, you are the challenge, right?

And that, I always quote the you are the challenge part, but the first part of that feels almost more relevant here because young jack mattress agon was like, then I won't challenge. Right. Brain of the unfortunate jack mattress egg on. Does it track? Does it fit? You are the challenge. You are the challenge. Agon simply by living and breathing.

Just existing makes the airs threats to Reneira or Reneira's line. So what does the realm think, but what does Reneira think? What's Reneer going to do? Yeah. And Reneer was horrified by blood and cheese, right? Horrified by a kid being killed. Math is different now. Tender toward Helena, but the circumstances have the Darren death conundrum last week now through this lens and this context. Very worrying. I also think it's interesting, you know, like, Allison obviously is going to lie to Reneer to protect Helena. Like, zero doubt about that. You got to try, but it's a pregnancy. You can only do it for so long. The wheels are turning, turning in her head of like, how can I cover this? Like, that's absolutely what's going on for Allison. Yeah.

Damon lying to Rainira about Raina. This sort of like last of us kind of like circling of the wagons of like who is the us and who is the them, you know what I mean? And like Damon has made his sort of like team of two with Raina. Like it's Reneer is supposed to be his inner circle. But he has sort of like split it over and made in that moment Rana his inner circle. And I mean, Alton Helena, duh. Like that's just what it's been. But like Reneira kind of coming to rely on Allison to like.

little bit for advice and stuff like that. Now here's this like impossible wedge between them. I think it's particularly interesting that we saw Allison immediately reveal the, that's not Darren last week, right? It's practical. You're not going to be able to maintain cover forever and then you'd be blamed for not sharing that but also trying to secure release. Offering up the orman smell info.

Giving Rainira information being a good source of intelligence amid her imprisonment and trying to secure release. Well, you can't do that, you can't do that with this. You can't barter with this information. It's, it's too precious. For the thing that Allison, since the season two finale, that pitched her near was, this is Elena. All I want is Helena. All I want is Helena. Jahera. Yeah. My girl and my, my daughter and my granddaughter are for us to be safe. For the war to ensure, but like for us to be safe, this is, this is in peril now. Unsafe. Speaking of peril. Ormond forces Darren to bloody his blade. Ormond is keeping to Sarian chained in the sept in Tumbledon, the symbolism of this, the high tower,

attempt to control. Like neuter. Yes, exactly. That's a great, great, neuter. The Targaryen force. A lot of emails asking how they got that dragon into that seps, which seemed like it was The door too small for a dragon to come through, I can't remember. It was like in the basement.

It was like a sept basement situation. Do you think the roof retracts, like the dome of a stadium? That's it. That's it. Jane Aaron's dogs. Retractable roof in Tumbledon. Professionals? The technology has developed in Dumbledin to retract moves.

Oh, man. We talk a lot about the dragon hubris with Targs, Joe, but this is some dragon hubris for Mormon here, I think. Boy. Sweet cream puff blue queen Tessarian. I love these two. We'll fly again. My girl?

My girl. I mean, Agon said my boy. This bond is a sacred thing. What do you think Raina says to sheepy? my man my man that's a great question i hope we get to find i love sheepstealer i love oh man uh they love they love each other they just want to fly i don't know you see the bond you see this nuzzle you see this affection and you think like ormond can't possibly convince darren that this part of him is wrong and bad and foul the taint as ormond puts it but that's the hideous noxious

effect that a presence in your life an abusive toxic presence in your life can have Are we have our listener Chris sent in this screenshot of a tweet from someone who goes by Allison Pilled Hightower South? Incredible. On Twitter. It's the shot of young Allison and Rainer in the set when they were sort of kneeling in front of all the candles there. And then the shot of Tessarayan and Darren. And the caption here is Allison being raising Kings Landing away from her family and clinging to religion as her last connection to her house and Darren being raised in old town and doing the same with Tessarian. I'm just not sad.

Very sad. Darren is a prisoner here. Poor boy. And I'm not sure if you've heard of a bit of dragon is not a slave. No. I wouldn't put him in chains personally. Remember when Danny chained two of her dragons in the catacombs of Marine? That was a mistake.

Really well. That was a mistake. Where's Tyrion when you need it? I know. Jesus. Tessarian roaring at Ormond. Get your hands off my boy. I love this.

One of my favorite passages from Fire and Blood. Some will claim that the bond between a dragon and dragon and Dragon Rider run so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. So there's the idea that just Tessarian is like, so good, right? And Tessarian is just like, fuck this guy and I know that on my own. But also that we have plenty of reason to believe that this is a reflection of Darren's real feelings about Orman. So that feels important. When Orman's talking about the problem with Reneera and he says, the brutes raise a woman to the Iron Throne, a desecration, where is reason, where is propriety?

Did you think of where is duty? Where is sacrifices? Of course. trampled under your pretty foot again. High Tower script. And I was thinking of that scene also, Joe, when Ormond is attempting to do his best tie-win with Taman, you know, what makes a good king lesson,

and says, A righteous king must demonstrate he upholds many virtues, honor, wisdom, justice. And then Darren's like, well, what about mercy? That sounds like some of your father would say. Exhausting, wasn't it hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness? In that same scene, but now they see you as you are. Like, the idea that Ormond is cloaking himself in this idea of righteous action and justice and oh, the faith.

Under his pretty little foot. Under his pretty little foot. Bathed, and I'm sure he does smell great because he's obsessed with him. Fairfirm. Bringing Leo in there to have Darren stab him in the shadow of the stepped. It's just, oh, boy. The parallels here are delicious, but it's also just very, very, very, very painful. Ormette has a plan, though.

Carlos, can we see this clip? You are a good boy. You speak kindly and you say a prayer. I've raised you in the light of the seven and the father smiles upon you, but there is a taint in your blood. The Targaryens are a savage race, poor and intellect, but rich and cunning. With dark spells, they created abominations to subdue what was rightly ours. We are the superior men, but against that we could not stand. him. Oh, man. We should have us Paula about the Deserian. Yeah, let's. Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. We need the

Paula Intel and the Deserian sound. It's like, treasonous and shocking language, more so even than what we hear from Raymond, because Ormond is like, I'm a general for Team Green and talking this way, making Darren feel ashamed of who he is horrible. And then he's like, here's my plan. I'm going to make you king. You're king. You're king. And Darren's like, what about my brothers? Completely aghast. Ormond invokes this ancient order. Alan's hand. of the queen. It's a real come up for everybody here. Darren's king.

King of Templeton. Pre-dragon, right? Pre-conquest, the olden days of Hightower kings. All rule in the shadows. All puppet master and puppeteer are like Taiwan. He doesn't know about Taiwan. Tywin's in the future, but we do. Yeah.

But this is all about the idea that the high tower should have been. It's galling to him. We're the superior men. They have to be the right hand. They cheated. For the Targs? Absolutely not. Galling.

Boy. That sounds like something your father would say. We talked about this on Talk of Thrones, but real like welcome back into our hearts, Vassaris moment for us. The mercy has, there's a place for mercy. There has to be.

Shuffle your little long walk into our hearts. Oh, man. I did think it was really interesting given how Ormond and many others vilify the Targs that the thing he's bumping on with Viseris is this inheritance of mercy, of the room for mercy. I thought that was,

which of course he sees as weakness, right? And then Darren stabs Leo. We wanted to talk about something that is different from the book, and we don't think this is a spoiler, really, but skip ahead if you want to be, like, extra sensitive about it. The next thing is the book spoilers anyway, so if you don't want to hear, if you don't want to hear this, and we're heading right into the book spoilers after this. So you've been warned. We should say at this point in the book, Darren has already been battle tested, and so this would not be, like, a first kill for Darren. And I think it's a really interesting adaptive choice to, like, Darren's intro is so dramatic in the book, and this is a very different intro for him. But I think, like, bringing us inside of this moment of loss of innocence for Darren, for us to see his first kill versus, like, you know, he's, he's a soldier boy.

Like, he has done things, you know, Darren the daring. Like, what's so daring about him? And it's just sort of like, and to see him just, like, shaking and doing this horrifying thing, I think is such a much more interesting, compelling character moment. And, like, the proximity. Like, it's his hand that is forced to thrust the way. It's not from, like, up high, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Book spoilers? And now we begin. Okay, boy. Now tens. Sorry. What if Tessarian had channeled dead there and be like, no. Now Tens. That would have been great.

Oh, man. Okay, Tumbled in the town, let's just say, never fully recover is from first and second Tumbled so showing us life in this town, these people. They built a whole town so they could burn it. That's why they built the biggest set yet, so they, They could burn an entire fucking town. We've got first tumbi coming. We've got second tummy coming.

We've got all the horrors in between. Or is other people like to call it tumble one, double two. Thumple one is so good. Oh, man. Lady Footley, an important character moving forward, kind of in charge of these restoration efforts, one of the Touch the Dragon Skull for a penny with Vermian smoky. Okay, Vermitour is C-smoke, who die. Horribly.

Tumble 2. So many. I reread that section this morning. So many characters die in this location. Yeah. Human and dragon. Yeah. Oh.

A lot of dragons die here. And Lady Footley's like, we're rebuilding. Yeah. And so we're going to mount some dragon skulls. And if you want to touch it and if you want to, you know, whatever, it'll cost you. That's part of her reconstruction efforts. Do you think they're going to do the Lady Footley, John Roxton? Sexual assault thing?

I don't know. They seem in their sexual assault era. So I hope not. But who knows. Okay. The Ormond odor stuff. Yeah. So Ormond is, again, we're in the spoiler section.

Well, we just spoiled a bunch of shit already. So hopefully you heard that. Took it seriously. He's killed by Rodney the Ruin at Tumble 1. But we're just not sure that they're going to get let James Norton go so readily. But maybe they will. I kind of hope not. There are more character.

It's weird. I feel like he kind of has to be gone for some of the other stuff that happens to happen to make sense. But also they can figure it out. Yeah, which you dropped an email in here that I was like, whoa, had not considered it really good. Roddy the ruin must fucking reek. That guy does not smell good. Is it just like, he gets into a woman? He's like, well, he's dead?

Or do you think, we got some theories? Is there another? A listener, Nicola wrote in with an email titled, Checkoffs Poppers. Unbelievable. I feel like Ormond's scented bottle is getting almost as much airtime as the cat in Cape Fear. My mind, shout out Cape Fear, listeners. Love you. My mind did also go immediately to Dragon, our spring mayhem, as Malcolm Tucker would say.

but I also wonder if the bottle itself might be tampered with. Ooh, I like that theory. So, like, his little sniffer, like, could you put some poison in there? Something like that. What if Darren does it? I would be. That would be really fun if Darren's like. That would be satisfying.

Oh, boy. I love that. And there's just, like, blood comes out of the nose and he's. That would be great. I don't want Roddy the ruin to be denied that kill, but it would obviously be more meaningful if Darren got to take his vengeance. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaking of Darren the daring, you mentioned the, okay, well, like, Cesarian and Darren got up to some shit at Honeywine and then just in general defending the march along the road, is there, is, so there's no, I mean, there's no dragon riding battle experience coming now before Tumbledon. So is Tumble 1 going to be the debut of Darren on Dragonback? And is it going to be a surprise? Because we haven't seen Darren on, so can it still be a surprise the way that Darren showing up on in the Battle of Honeywine is a surprise?

That has real, Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet potential. me of like they know to Sarah's I don't think they would have forgot well but like yeah good point it's would I be shocked if they have the characters forgot but just sort of like Not taking it seriously

Yeah because he's a boy Because Darren's young and Tassarian's a little Just a boy entirely possible What do you think about Speaking of double one Oh Yeah

Okay so two betrayers Yeah obviously the setup for this just continues to be great. I don't really know that we even need to say anything more than that. Like, you send Hugh there because his wife is there. That's obviously why. And again, this will be revealed to us because his wife, this isn't a thing in the book. But like, clearly there's going to be like burn the town.

He's going to say no. Orman from like miles away just shakes a bottle at Ulf and is like, Olfie, there's booze here. Orr gold. Or again, I am now like, I can't stop thinking about the fact that Ormond witness demon mocking. Oh, you know, this guy's castle? Go off from a castle. It's done.

What James Norton said in the behind the scenes was like, he was like, Orman's a constant chess player, right? So he's just like constantly making his moves. And this idea that like, and what I think I'm a Darcy was who said like that, and she used the English pronunciation, which you love, that that, that, uh, Ormond has become the bogey man for Reneera. Just this sort of like this race, this phantom that she doesn't understand his psychology so she can't anticipate his move.

I think that's interesting. So like, yeah. One more L for Kristen. He thinks he's the race with someone else's. So tough. Gawain. All right, Gwain. So the question was like, is Kristen going to kill, you wrote the notes, is Kristen going to kill Gwain for trying to abandon him or will he just die at the butcher's ball like Kristen?

And like, a lot of people anticipate that. So the preview that they showed at the end of this episode was like the rest of the season preview. It wasn't just next week on because I think a lot of people saw that and were like, oh my God, are we getting Tumbledton and. And Bucer's ball next week? No, it was one of those in the weeks ahead. Yeah, in the weeks ahead trailer. So we're definitely not getting Tumbled to next week. A lot of people are wondering if we're going to get Butchers Ball next week because

Kristen Cole is so like, let's go do some guerrilla warfare sort of thing. So could Kristen Cole die as early as next week? Could Gawain die with him? Right. In that Weeks Ahead trailer, there is a line from Kristen Cole where he says they will sing songs of it. And our listener, Aiden was like, I literally busted out laughing. Because if you're in the book spoiler section and you don't know.

Yes. Kristen's like, when he's about to die at the butcher's ball, he's like, let's do a mighty duel and it'll be great. And they'll sing songs of it or whatever. And like, and then- No songs about how brave you died. Thousands is dead on your gown. No songs for you, Kingmaker. Fuck you. You're dead. It's like maybe the best line of the book. I can't wait to hear it. Absolutely baller. But like what if they change it? I don't know. What if they change it? I don't know. It's the change it. I don't know. It's the song. I don't know. It's iconic and we have to get it. Oh, man. Here's our listener Simon's theory about Gwain, though. Tell me. And we should say in the trailer. Yes, the final season trailer.

There's, so what's the shot? Because your shot was different from the shot I was referencing. So, right. And this is different from book spoilers. This is a trailer breakdown thing. A trailer spoiler. We have no idea because, like, in the book spoiler section, we can say, Gawain is killed in King's Landing.

He's already dead. He's dead. This is all new canon for Gawain. There's a shot of Gween in the final trailer, which your note last night reminded. man went back and looked like he's kind of swinging his blade at somebody you can't see who it is in the scene but he is now because we've spent time at tumbledon clearly in ormond's tumbledon there's also an overhead shot of but it's far away but it's an overhead shot of gwayne orman and john riding on

horses through the streets of tumbledon so gwayne is making it to tumbledon okay so he's not going to be killed he's not going to be unless his ghost is at tumbledon but like gwayne is making good news for darren gwayne's making it to tumbled that's great we're very excited Simon wrote in to say to suggest that Gwain will take over Hobart High Towers role as leader of the Caltrops. I love this. So Gwain has been characterized as having a close relationship with Darren. If Orman gets taken off the table by Roddy the Ruin in Tubble 1, shout out Simon. Gwain and Darren will be the only forces to lead the Hightower host in opposition to both blacks and the two betrayers, Wolf and Hugh.

We could see Gwain and Darren attempt to steer the green cause in a more morally upright, noble direction just as Reneer and the blacks begin to. to totter from paranoia into cruelty, an inversion of the Blacks' virtuous narrative that the show has owed us for some time. I really loved that sentence. Yeah. Um, the audience's first impression of Gwain is as a charismatic rich douchebag, a privileged pretty boy who is content to look down his aquiline nose at the upjumped cutthroat Christian Cole. Even in season three episode four, we hear Kristen bitterly decry Gwain's highborn view of the war as just a game to be played from the comfort of their stately feather beds. The fact that we are now generally on Gwain's side, given that he wishes to uphold

Army's prohibition against assault while Kristen is mired in suicidal nihilism is a testament to the efficiency of the characterization and the depravity of Kristen's character alike. If Gwain ends his life, so again, this is Gwain in the Hobart High Tower role. If Gwain ends his

life by drinking poison to take out Ulf, or maybe killing you, that we have John Rocks on the show, so maybe not, it continues as profound ambiguity with regard to class and privilege. On the one hand, Gwain will be taking out a destabilizing, dangerous, and possibly depraved Dragon Rider for the betterment of the continent. Ulf's a real piece of shit in the book.

On the other, however, he will be reinforcing the feudal system of power against a rare commoner who managed to subvert those structures, especially, given that the show's depiction of the seeds has been way more complex than Hugh is a violent brute, and Ulf is a rapist depiction we get in the book. So, like, I love this idea for Gwain, right? like this idea that he will and like I was so we went back and re-read the section where Hobart like brings the two casts of wine and one is poison as one is not and he's hoping he can like get away like envisioning all of that with Freddie Fox very exciting and like that's a that's a season four possibility right because that's like if tumble one as we think is going to end the season you know then tumble two is is next season so we get Freddie Fox all into season four and in this much more prominent role and like as someone we can root for with Darren like I just

I love this idea. I think that this is particularly exciting on the Gwain Darren front. Yeah. Given the complexity of like – because I have questions. Get those two gingers together. I mean, yeah, let's do it. Just in general what Darren – you know – is there a version of this where even after Ormond is gone, perhaps Darren takes a hand in it like we just discussed. But what is Darren's relationship to the idea of being crowned going to be?

Because it's very different in the book, but that is kind of an idea. And then the challenge, you know, Hugh is like – I'm going to be the king. I mean, that's not something that character is going to say it at all. No. Yeah. So there's a lot to figure out there. There's so many high tower characters missing.

Obviously, Hobart is the book to show change in terms of where he is in the family tree is different. Does Ormond and the show have kids? I don't think so. It doesn't seem like it. So that's a little bit interesting in terms of some of the ripples of like. I think Darren is probably his air inside of the world the show. Yeah. So there's just like fewer characters.

total. There's also a like, okay, Orman's air isn't going to like lead to a high tower faith rift because he's basically like, I'll do some incest. Like, you know, let me fuck my stepmom. It makes sense to just use the high tower characters we have to drive that plot. Yeah, like efficiency of characters

is the same way we use Raina for nettles and stuff like that. We're using a high tower who's been with us now for two seasons. Yeah, that's very exciting. Yeah, I'm into it. Um, Sunfire and Eggon. Joanna, I don't I'm, I'm worried this is a season finale thing. I'm just like how

long are they going to drag this out? Because I really am enjoying the Egon-Byrus stuff, but it's I do think it at a certain point defies believability that they can get away with being there for that long without being detected. Now maybe that comes, there is that shot in the trailer of Egon like looking up. Maybe they're detected, imperiled

and Sunfire rises to save them. That's like possible, I guess. And just like roast Janos in his shitty boots. That would be great. I would love that. I feel like this is a season finale thing. Yeah. Tumble one and Agon gets on sunfire Among other things

I mean that would be This is just I have so many questions about this Because like obviously in the Alice rides Vagar She's gonna ride something Oh man Yeah finale seems Penultimate or finale feels right at this point

Penultimate Helena So there's a shot in the trailer That we were sort of trying to puzzle over And it looks like maybe Helena giving birth She doesn't seem that far You know like so if she gives birth We had thought maybe this was like an Amin

dream, heron hall dream. Right. So maybe it's still a name in Haranhall dream. Or maybe like she goes into early labor or I don't know. Right. What's going to happen? Will she die in childbirth instead? Will she jump out the window because of whatever happens to her baby? Right.

Also sort of like this question of like, for Olivia Cook to say in the behind the scenes, like, going to make her take moon tea or something else or whatever. And if you couple that with Helena saying no living creature will be harmed earlier in this season. Yeah. Like, I don't think that's something Helena wants. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and there's the like, I mean, obviously everything with Maylor and his death, Bitterbridge is horrific. Horrible.

Horrific. There's something about this now being at. the red keep, whatever is going to happen. We genuinely don't know because this will be different from the book canon, but like, is Masari involved. It's a foot away from all of our character. Like, it's in the same halls that Renera's in. Alicent is right there.

Is Massar. Yeah. What role does Masaria play either in this or Helena's eventual death? Because, like, one of, there's so much speculation around Helena's death in the book, but one of the whispers is like Masaria sharing what happened with Maylor, right? So, I don't know. It's just going to be so, so, so, so tough. Damon and Nettles.

Speaking of Masaria, so she's the one who's, like, whispering about the affair to Reneira. Just a clean swap here. Or she could also, like, if she finds out from Jane's dogs that there is. I say keep going with it until it's. Until you have absolutely no ability to think it could be true. Lean in. As we know. Sinta just rolled that.

At speed. Sounds exactly right. In the end of her. When Jane's dog's report to Masaria that it's a young lady on the back of sheep's dealer. Could Massaria say like, Damon's clearly fucking this girl?

Or could it just be like, even if it is his daughter, he married his niece? Targaryian love insists. You're right. It's not off the table, unfortunately. Jesus.

You're right. Summer of incest continues a pace. Megor returned. Completely valid fear from the ruler who will be known as I did a real leo. pointing me when she was just sort of like, they'll name me Magar. I was like, Megar Return, I was like, close.

Magar with Teets is worse. It's going to be even worse. It's going to be worse. Magar with Teets is so brutal. Speaking of teats, the cunt and cock tax, Keltegar done. Did anyone fix? Okay, so. The Toramander Lee. He's going to do the tax. Maybe. Keltagar is so derided and despised by the citizens of King's landing for the tax that he is gelded, his head is cut off. They, like, can't do that with Torr and Manderly because he's too important of a figure in the regency? If they are doing the regency at all.

Our listener, Ash, also said, because Keltigar is not a master of coin, perhaps Kaltagar, to be one of the men who betrays or near and opens the gate of dragon. This feels right to me. He's the guy at Dragonstone, who we still kind of know who he is, but, like, Peltagar needs to, I don't know. Yeah. Though it's funny because I kind of was reading this email was like, oh, do they just have him do it instead of Alford? Oh, yeah. But then we had the whole like, very dramatic Harenhall, where would whisper to Broom.

That would be like kind of a waste. That said, it's possible that they did all the Vassaris cut by the throne stuff and then decided not to do that with Renner. So, you know, you tend your garden in real time. Who knows? Oh, man. Any other Erie-based series for? Well, the Erie. So on House of the Direc—

They mentioned that they rebuilt the entire set. Yeah. Super expensive. Maybe they did. This show loves a mural. Maybe they just really wanted to paint that mural. For why? Because spoilers, I guess, if you're on the spoiler section, like, they don't, you know, like, they ask Lady Jane later to send some troops.

She's like, sure, by sea later. Like, she's barely in the rest of the story, kind of. So, like, in that capacity, in that her throne would be important. So, like, is it so that Missaria can go there and hear from her dogs? Must be that. Exactly that. Raina. Or on History of Westeros podcast, they were wondering if maybe they're going to use it for the Agon's Conquest show.

And it's just sort of like a set that they could use later. Oh, that's fun. It's fun. Yeah. I like the idea that it's just sort of like, they were like, we want to get real thronesy with it. I think it's not. But that's so spendy for them to do. Okay.

The Shepherd. Yeah. All right. So Michael wrote in to say, so The Shepherd is this figure that still needs to show up on the show, this, like, very important leader of the common folk who's got this anti-tar, anti-Dragon sentiment, a rabble-rouser sort of leader. Michael says the most powerful thing the show can do is make Kristen Cole the shepherd. I hate that because I think we need to watch Kristen Cole die.

And also Fabian Frankel seems like real clear that he's done with the show. I also think this is like, this would run the risk of, with respect to the idea. Everyone has to be a Skywalker. like the anti-Broom Boy. It's like, let's get other characters in the mix and have them play a real part in the events. I just really disagree with you because I like, I like the idea that the shepherd is someone we already know,

just like someone disfigured it in disguise. So I don't think it should be Kristen Cole. No, I can't. Kristen's got a, he's got to die at Butchersball yet. I do love Brum Boy. So who do you think it should be if it's someone we know? So our listener, Webb, suggested Ormond.

If Orman doesn't die at Tumble One, but instead gets disfigure. somehow and like cast out or whatever. Yeah. And so like James Norton gets to show up, you know, in a different guise to sort of like in disguise, rouse the rabble and storm the dragon pit, et cetera, et cetera. Like, is that a possibly you hate it? I just think we should already know the shepherd by now if we're going to like.

I think it's a, my general response to that is like agreement. I think it's always interesting if we know the characters. I guess my, the counterweight on that for me, which I think. The scales are fairly even on this, but I think the other side of it is pulling slightly more strongly on me. First of all, just to quickly acknowledge the Ormond thing specifically, guy can't handle the smell of being around the small foca King's Landing. But maybe that this is his new life. Maybe. I think that the idea that the shepherd is, now I'm not going to think of anything else.

The idea that the shepherd is like no one, there's been so much attention paid to the small. For the shepherd to end up being like a like a Lord or Lady, a member of a great house feels to me like it's slightly undercuts. Is it Sylvie? That I could see. Like a character like a Diana or a Sylvie, somebody who we do know and have that history with what fits the I'm a member of the common folk. Sylvie's a great candidate because she's said to Amon way back when it's the small folk like me who suffer. That I like because it gives us to check the box of someone. when we have an investment in already.

I think the shepherd has to be a commoner. You would like, yeah, you would prefer that to like them being manipulated by just a different lord. Yeah. Again, I'm open to it if done well. Like the Allison idea, there's something intriguing about that, actually. Webb also said, I continue to think the shepherd could end up being Allison. Her story is essentially finished in the book at this point.

And the show owners will almost certainly need to give her a substantial new arc, making her the face of the anti-dragon movement would certainly accomplish that. Like on the heels of. Allison to having this journey of, I don't want this, I just want to escape with my daughter, my granddaughter, big bathtub. And then on the heels of Helena's death saying, the only thing I can do now is cloak myself in the righteousness again, that's not uninterested. And I don't think that's what's going to happen.

But there's a version of that that I think could be interesting. Something like Sylvie feels, now I'm like, is that why Sylvie was back? Interesting. I want to say one more thing, which is like, I can say, oh, this should be a character we already know, you can't just introduce him in the final season, but at the same time, like, we just met Wormon, and I'm, like, deeply invested in Ormond and Darren and stuff like that. So, if done well, you can certainly do that. I mean, this might be controversial. I, the high sparrant, like, Jonathan Price's the High Sparrow, like, never perfectly

worked for me. So I'm just, like, a little worried about the Shepard in general. Yeah. I always really liked Jonathan Price's High Sparrow, the overall faith militant plot. I did not. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Price is the best. He's great. Slow horses coming back soon.

Fuck, you fucking baby. Raina, Regency, or what? So Tom Rondon to say, if Rana can bomb a sheepstealer, will she also be able to hatch morning and bomb with her during the Regency? I think this comes down to what you guys discussed a few episodes ago. The showrunners don't plan to adapt the regency, so why set up plot points, even if they are pretty integral to the story of Westrose and the Targs? Ironically, they have set up certain characters who will be important during the Regency very well.

Alan is obviously aged up, but the way he's being developed. makes him set to be a key player for decades as well, as then building a connection between him and Bela. So basically, I included this from Tom. Because, like, obviously, the Dragon Rider Bond thing, with the whole Seasmoke thing seems like slightly less of a thing. On the one hand, they don't care about dragon lore and canon. On the other hand, sheepsteader would have to be dead.

You can't have two dragons at once unless they're... Or can you? Well, anyway. But sheep still are dying, which would be... Because sheepstealer nettles, it's just like, and then they vanish. So like, sheepsteer could die. And then Raina going from, because I first read this and I was like, this is, it's impossible, but sheepsteel are dying, which would be sad.

And then Raina, who went from my life is defined by Rain and the Unfortunate and I have no dragon to claiming a wild dragon never been done. And then having an egg hatched to her and mourning being born as this like symbol for Team Black as like the superior side. Not uninterested. The show just being like, you can have two dragons, I think. think would not so well with the fandom. In terms of the regency math, in terms of like how long does the story continue after Rainierre dies, which is a question we've been debating in the spoiler

section. Yeah. As we mentioned before, Torin Manorley being here feels like it could be an indicator that they're planned to do some of it. But like I guess I think it'll be interesting to track like what seeds are they planting that feel like they go beyond Renier and then Aikon's death. Like I do think we need to watch Ake on Die. For sure. I love the theories that like Allison's going to be the one to do it or whatever. just have Gwain and Allison, the Hightower, kill everyone. Poison twins, you know what I mean?

I love it. Sounds really fun. But like, I don't know, we don't have to do this right now, but just sort of like in general, let's continue to watch sort of the characters that are introduced, the seeds that are planted, are ongoing, is Thailand and Lannister alive, like debate, et cetera, et cetera, to see. Even Lady Fultley being here, one of the Widows of Winter, those characters. So, like, there is, I, it's a good shout in the email.

out that there's a lot of like these people who are going to be around. Yeah, are here. Are here now. We met Craig and Stark. To your point, maybe that just means when we get a bunch of words on the screen very quickly updating us, we're like, we know who those people are. And they're like, and then Lady Footley charged people to touch dragons. Or it's a montage at the end.

You just see Lady Footley being like, Penny a touch. Yeah. Yes. That is increasingly what I think, honestly, the like, Egon the third ascending moment will kind of be given to us in the like, you know, auretos on the prowl of the ship. Sanzah in the cloak of Coronation. Wherewood leaves. Like I think we, I feel like we have to see

Egon the third there. But are we getting a bunch of like how to run the realm after that? A baby? Probably not. I'm excited. Jaffre's on his way to King's Landing. That's exciting. Good old Jaff. What final predictions for whether they will have aged this child up? Yeah. I sure hope so. He needs to be so much older than he is.

Helena's only five months pregnant. It's only been five months, but we got a new actor for genre. All right. And then, I don't know, Corlis triagia. I don't know. I have no idea. I just, how long could he possibly be sidelined? It doesn't make sense.

What is it going to do? I have no idea. I'm very confused by this, to be honest. Is he going to, like, hook up with the rook's rest plot? Like, is that possible? Could be. How? That seems like a possibility.

Yeah. Because like the coastal, the stretch of town. I mean, you know, they're like, yeah, Lyris can't wait to get to Duskendale. You know, these ports, these port cities, that, yeah, maybe. That's all like me. Yeah, I got nothing else. Going out to like gaze at the decomposing body of Maly's, you know, and think about Rainey's. That would be pretty sad.

Sad. Dear sweet sugarplum Maly's who never did anything wrong in her life. No, Maly's has blood on her scale, God damn it. Still not over that. All right, we did it. Halfway through the season, sad. Geez. Thank you to our team, our Dragon Riders.

Should I give you more a response? It is sad, and I won't miss doing this with you. Carlos, Scott. Jamie is here today. Jamie is here today. Jamie's here with us today. What a treat. Arjuna, Jomey, the whole squad.

Join us again. Jacob's here. Jacob's here. Jacob is here. Jacob is here. I'm to have Jacob and Jamie. It's just an embarrassment of riches. Absolutely. My God.

Join us for episode five of Talk to Throne Sunday night immediately after the episodes. And then next... CR is back. CR is back. And then next week for the deep dive. And then please come to San Diego to see us at Comic-Con. Come to say hi in San Diego.

We'll see you soon. Bye.