House of R - ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin, and special guest Van Lathan are excited to give you all of their thoughts on the newest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’! They start off with Joanna’s Chris Ryan impression, get into the universal love for Daeron Targaryen, and wrap up with Team Black’s interesting choice of small council.(00:00) Intro(02:51) CR’s recap(05:48) Favorite moment of the episode(12:43) 'GoT' communion ritual(14:14) Ormund and Daeron’s relationship(15:55) Cult of Hightower(17:30) Daeron Hightower vs. Daeron Targaryen(22:06) Ormund and the Faith(26:42) Villains in the 'Thrones' universe(30:56) Ormund Hightower vs. Tywin Lannister(35:53) Alys, the witch and queen of Harrenhal?(40:23) Criston Cole’s self-reflection(47:24) Big reveal: Helaena is pregnant(52:57) Undercover boss: Aegon and Larys at Rook’s Rest(54:55) Relationship between riders and dragons in this episode(59:38) Team Black’s small council(01:02:46) Orwyle’s character progressionHosts: Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin, and Van LathanProducers: Aleya Zenieris, Carlos Chiriboga, and Scott LeeSocial: Jomi AdeniranSet Production: Jonathan Ratliff and Gitu MehraAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Talk the Thrones. We're here to break down the fourth episode of the third season of House of the Dragon. I'm Jordan Robinson. Joining me is Van Lathen? And is she a queen or is she a bitch with a dragon? It's Mallory Rubin. Tough. We're going to get into that right after this.

We are thrilled to share that the Ring of Verse team, The Midnight Boys, Poo-Pew, and the House of Our, will be returning to San Diego Comic-Con this July. We're kicking off on Thursday, July 23rd at Whiskey Girl for a Ringervverse fan meetup. No badge required. We'll be there for an hour or so starting around 630, so come say hi, grab a drink, celebrate with us. And then, on Saturday, July 25th at 1030 a.m., come to our panel. Comic-Con badge holders can find the Midnight Boys Poo-Pew and the House of Our. Correct. In Room 5A.B on the upper level of the convention center for a ring-a-verse supergroup panel. We're going to be discussing the franchises that have dominated nerd culture this year and taken stock of what's to come. So whether you're local to San Diego or in town for Comic-Con, we'd love to see you at Whiskey Girl on Thursday, or if you're a badge holder, join us on Saturday, July 25th for our panel. See you in San Diego.

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Our pal Christopher Ryan is not here today, but joining us as a very special guest, it's Van Lathen. How you doing, Van? I'm great. This lets me know that I am what I always wanted to be. It's the black CR. I don't know. I'm the one with the A's hat on.

You got a Dodgers hat on. I've never seen CR in a Dodgers hat. He never would do that. He never would. So you can listen to Van on Midnight Boys. Poo-Poo! Higher Learning. Tailgate, tailgate

Raise the roof And many other shows Whatever you guys want Malirubin Hello incredible host of House of R Queen of the Deep Dive herself Incredible person That's nice

Yeah And I'm also in House of R I mean I think we're gonna probably open House of R this week saying let us become wraiths With Fear is our standard So tune in for that, can't wait We're the Scorpions of podcast, it's true

I'm here doing my very best Chris for Ryan impression just for a little bit, then you won't have to deal with the hat anymore. I think the hat is really working. I like that. I think it looks great. Sporty and all of that stuff, it looks good. And everyone's like, Joanna, she's sporty.

Sports show. Yeah, sports show. Go sports. So here's my, it's as good as my map making skills. Here's my impression of a Chris Ryan recap. Hot on the heels of Damon's Dragon Rider supremacy monologue. In this midway point of the season, several House of the Dragon characters are asking themselves,

how do you dance without a dragon? Reneira's Dragon Army is relegated to babysitting Tumbledin, and with a castle-sized Vagar mysteriously missing, members of Team Green like Kristen Cole and Ormond Hightower are forced to contemplate a dragonless, or mostly dragonless, way forward. Aegon, too, despite trying to Valerian Rakey heal his dragon's sunfire back into action, is finding out it's not all breakfast sandwiches and puppet-churchase,

shows when an Aegon Targaryen goes undercover for an internship among the common folk. You know who does have a dragon? Rana. Rana has a dragon, and now Damon knows it too. Continuing his tradition of gleefully killing folks who are simply trying to enjoy the fresh air in the veil, Damon offers up an innocent shepherd's head, cooked Pittsburgh style, to his wife, Reneira. Wow.

The queen seems duped for now, but are mistress of whispers, not so much. Speaking of Masaria, she's taking the lead of Reneer's team of rivals, which includes a massive promotion for Nepo Baby Alan of Hull, a come-up for the ever-scrappy Grandmaster Orwell, and welcome to the opening tapestry, newly minted master of coin, Torin Manderly. It's too soon. Immediate tapestry star. No more standard for the tapestry of history. What on earth?

Immediate tapestry star. Over in Tumbledin, we witnessed firsthand why the Third Amendment exists. That's the one about quartering soldiers, which I definitely didn't have to Google. Don't worry about it. Ormond Hightower, like me, is just reading email after email with increasing exasperation, while we finally officially meet Prince Darren, who was less excited by the side of his uncle's bare ass than a Targaryen usually is. Well, yeah, it works out. And in a turn, more heartbreaking than watching the U.S. lose to Belgium.

We watch Good Boy, Darren. Sports Joe! Sports Joe! We watched Good Boy, Darren, lose some of his innocence as he plunges of Lerian Steel Sword into Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law. Rapid Fire Roundup. Wow. Alice Rivers is traded in her aprons for Simon Strong's leftover purple velvets and golden jewelry and is possibly hiding a Targaryen.

Speaking of hiding a Targaryen. Speaking of hiding a Targaryen. Wild. Yeah. Boris Barathian has made himself scarce while Lord Corlis Laurian is off hunting pirates. Alan's a cat guy. Jane Aaron's a dog mom. And Gwain Hightower, Ulf White, the populace of Tumbleton, the Banksy of Kings Landing,

and Lord and Lady Footley's favorite table are straight up not having a good time. So to paraphrase, Theodin King, Sir Arthur Dane, and Orman High Tower, now we may begin. Wow. And that's incredible. The CR recap. That was phenomenal. Unbelievable. That was great.

All right, let's start as we always do. Van Leithen, what was your favorite part of the episode? Damon's daughter conundrum. Ah, Ray. Raina at the end. For a lot of reasons. Number one, it's kind of tying a thread that he just knows he left his entire family and they would kind of spread to the wind and stuff.

But I love stuff where people are asked to be a dad. They're asked to be a father. They're asked to kind of slip back into that role. And I thought that he would react. His character would react in a different way. I did not think that he would care. Okay. I did not think at all because the character,

in some way to be that dangerous as he is, he has to be cynical and he has to be like, uh, this makes sense, this makes sense. And that's who he's been in this entire season. You have to kill this person. You have to do this. It doesn't matter how grotesque the task is. Got to kill the kid.

He's an heir to the throne. You're going to have to kill him. You have to kill Otto. Like in front of him, you got to do all of this stuff. But for some reason, there was still some humanity in him when it came to his daughter. Then he undid it. right away by killing an innocent to then like spin this entire yarn about like what's actually going on. So you see him both be a man and then be what he believes himself to be, which is a god that can

take a life whenever he wants in like one scene and two scenes back to back. And it completely encapsulates what the character is. I love that read. I love Matt Smith's like Damon's face. And I love to your point about him being a god. The fact that that shepherd is just sort of down the mountain and is so small and he's sort of like looking down on him. And it's just sort of like, oh, I could just kill that guy. No problem. I can because I'm a god. You know, at certain times in the show,

they do a great job of making the Targaryens actually look like dragons. And when you think about the fact that sheepstealer preys on sheep's and goats and things like that, when he looked down at him, he looked like prey. He looked like something to be eaten and harvested for whatever Damon wanted.

The call of the goat drawing his awareness in the first list. He comes back over there and she goes, I forget names a lot of times. What's the mistress of... Misaria. Whose head is there? Yeah, who the butt's head? Well, she did say last week, she can sniff a lie.

Like, whose head is that? Helps if it's extra dragon crispy when you're sniffing the lie, I guess. But she knew right away that Damon was full of shit. I'm really excited to talk about the Damon Rainer stuff more. Very rich text. Mallory Rubin, what was your favorite part of the episode? Oh, God. Hard to pick because this was another really good episode of House of the Dragon.

What a run we're on. I think the bathtub etiquette is something I'm looking forward to discussing. All of the Dragon Bond moments, something I'm looking forward to discussing. But it's kind of a tie for me between these two things. The vintage Game of Thrones feel of just this many characters and this many locations, it's really rare in a House of the Dragon episode that we are in, Kingslanding, Tumbleton, the Vale, Rooks, Dress, Heron Hall, not those specific locations, but like five distinct locations that all were actually central to something that happened in the plot.

I think the other thing for me is the throughline and theme of almost, every character, regardless of whether they think they're winning or know they're losing, basically being a prisoner. Some of that is very literal, right? Like Helena and Alicent are being kept in a lovely room and occasional visits to the godwood, but gods would, they're prisoners. Your girl, Tesarian and chains? Tessarian literally chain in the sept. Can't wait to talk about the symbolism of that from Ormond High Tower's perspective. Not sure if you guys have heard a little character named DeNaris Targaryen ever mentioned that a dragon is not a slave. Has that come up in Game of Thrones before.

Olf in a fashion, Reneura just says to him, you're not allowed to leave anymore. You can't go to taverns. Your body belongs to me. Your body belongs to me. You can't leave except to go on duty for me. Kristen, imprisoned by his increasingly confounding sense of purpose

and honor. Raina, by her exile. Damon, now by the choice he's made on and on and on the list goes. And of course, Darren, I think, is a really new important character in the story, maybe most interestingly of all. We've spent a lot of time in the show, including in this episode, hearing Allison talk about the idea of how glad she is, that Darren was spared, being raised at the court. And we look at this now clearly through these

amazing Ormond Darren scenes in this episode. This is just a prison of a different sort, the prison of being Ormond High Towers Ward. So it's a great Darren Ormond episode. I'm so excited to talk about them more. And just in general, really rich thematic text to link these characters. There's a lot of parallels across this. You know, the ordained mission emerging for Ormond when we've talked about that so much with Renera. It's just, it's very rich text. What about you, Joe? What's your highlight?

For me, it's definitely Darren and Orman. I think it's really difficult on a show in a third season to introduce characters and get us to care about them so much right away. And like, as compelled as I am by Orman and I'm great because James Norton is a fantastic actor. I am like kind of all in on Darren Targaryen. Like, he just got here, and I kind of care more about him than almost anyone else on the show. And I don't, I don't know if it's just, like, the performance from this kid, Benjamin Evan Ainsworth, who I saw as an even smaller kid in Bly Manor, he's like uncanny good. And as you and I were discovering, he's going to be Link in the Legends of Zelda movie. Yeah.

What? That kid's about to be famous. Yeah, this kid's on the come up. But he is, like, he is, like, incredibly good in this episode. There's, like, a lot of moments of just, like, of look. of flinches of just like all these moments that tell a huge story. His eyes are very compelling. And I just, I'm like, I'm just like all in on him and his innocence and what is at risk here for him. And, and I really needed that like even deeper emotional investment inside of House the Dragon. I also think this is once again a really funny episode. I think they're doing a really good job of like sprinkling humor in all of the locations. So you're never like, oh, here we go. We're back here. It's like Alice Rivers being like, oh, you didn't know. that Rainier took Kings Landing. Torn Manorley, really fun on the small council.

You know, they've just like, do pops of humor sort of everywhere, which is the classic Thrones. You love to see it. And then I wanted to, because Sierra is not here in his absence, shout out the writer of this episode, who's David Hancock, who is C.R.'s favorite writer from last season. He wrote on the Crown previously,

but he wrote on season two episode three, Burning Mill, season two episode seven, Red Soeing. And something that C.R. really highlighted when we talked about this last season was like an elevation of language. There were just certain words like, oh, you're going to go carp, you know, or like paint a rondel on his chest instead of Target. You know, there's just like a little like tweak of words here and there that really feel like you need to lean in and catch every word,

which I really liked. That made me think of Grogo because that was a big piece of armor that he got in. Yeah, yeah. You know, to the Darren point, something happened in this episode. I talked a little bit about this. Probably will talk a little bit about this on The Midnight Boys that will happen to you. We also watched him take his Game of Thrones communion like in this show.

We watched him like the Game of Thrones starts with Brand having to watch Net Kill someone. Right. And then we go through all of these characters with them getting to that point. Them like becoming a part of this world and it's normally by the sword.

Like we even watched that for like Renera earlier in this season. Yep. She had to take that life and she didn't want to do it. He didn't want to kill him. And he looks at it and he goes, hey, let you know. Everybody's watching. If you don't do this, you're not really a part of this thing. Like, to

be nobility in this world, you have to set yourself apart from the people that have to die in order for you to rule. And like, that scene where he has to do that, I'm like, oh, we're cooking with the same Thrones recipe that we've been cooking with and watching him lose his innocence right there.

It was really meaningful for the character and for the show. I got really emotional. And I was like, incredibly all in on this kid. I feel very invested. That baptism by blood to that point is like something we've been talking about a lot. And it's fascinating to track when that is an act of agency on a character's behalf or something like in this case that feels like a real loss. A real source of corruption, a tragedy, something that like clearly Darren did not want to do the quivering, the shaking. Enhanced further by the fact that Tissarion, who was chained there in the in the sept in Tumbleton, clearly displey.

Bises Ormond High Tower roaring, moving toward him, Oremant flinching. It is like the second he walks in. We don't know how it's manifested, but it is clear that Ormond has been abusing Darren, whether literally physically or not. But there, you know, when Darren's like get out to that other serving boy in the room right before Orman loses his shit on the table, it's just sort of like he knows about Orman's temper.

He knows it can be taken out on people. Has it ever physically been taken out on him? I'm not sure, but the way in which Tessarian reacts when Orman goes to touch Darren makes me just like really sad, devastated. And especially in an episode that across multiple character sets, Egon seeing Sunfire, Raina saying I will not leave Sheep Steeler, he's a part of me.

This was an episode that went out of its way, the way I loved is a Dragon Stan and Superfan, to reinforce the bond between Ryder and Dragon. So the fact that Tissarian responds that way to Orman and tells us something about not only what Tessarian has observed and feels, but what Darren feels about Ormond, which to your point about the facial expressions and expressions and how compelling the performances, we can tell in a number of respects. I loved what that told us about their dynamic and relationship and what Darren has clearly witnessed and had to suffer through,

but also just more generally outside of even the Orman relationship, Darren's power of observation. The fact that Darren is paying attention, absorbing, you know, we have all of these moments with him and now looking back, realizing who he is, you know, standing with his hands kind of behind his back, this posture. Yeah. You know, I've been recently reading books about cults. This is an incredible sentence. When you read a book about a cult, you start to realize everything is a cult. Almost everything is a cult. Like, do you think you'd be a good cult leader? I would be fantastic. I would be amazing. Fantastic. The book has actually stirred up some things Yeah, some desire.

Some latent desire. But when I watched this episode through that lens, I watched Ormond tried to make Darren a member of the High Tower cult. I love that. Of him trying to, like, everything,

hey, he naturally, he's a Targaryen, so he naturally wants to have like cool, fun times with his dragon. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't, like, rub that beast. Don't fall in love with that beast. Like all of that.

Then he gives him what you have to give somebody that's in the cult. The first part of the brainwashing is that we are better than everyone else. That's the first part of the cult. Like we live a life that's either going to be rewarded by God or here on this earthly plane, we're better than everyone else. And you have to believe that. And that's what he's giving them. He's saying, hey, the Targaryans rule this place because they have these big WMDs.

But really, it is, look at the color of your hair. Look at me. Really, it is us. who are fit to rule and who are the best. And watching him try to bring him into that because I've been into the cults was just fascinating to me. And to do it inside of, as you mentioned, the sept,

you know, we're, we've got winter and like knocks over all the candles on the altar there. I thought that was incredible. But like to cloak it inside of the language of purity. Yes. Of, of like, we are what's right, but we are what's pure. we are what is innocent and we are, and like the Targaryans are a savage race and they are disgusting and this is a half of you.

Part of you is Targaryen. But I love the point. I love that they've made Darren a redhead. Like I love that. I love that he has red hair because it's just sort of like he doesn't look like a Targaryian. Are you guys sure he has red hair? I want to ask y'all. I wanted to ask y'all that.

To make him look more like a high tower. Because she says, and we never know when the goddamn Targaryian shit's going to kick in, by the way. Just to let you guys know. It's very picky with that shit. She says that she wanted him to be a high tower, right? Her last. And when I first song, I thought, oh, they're dyeing his hair. It was interesting because they died the other boy's hair blonde,

and they died his hair, reddish brown or whatever. But now I'm not sure. And I was wondering, I wanted to ask you all that. I think that's, I think it's supposed to be his hair. You think it's a die job. I'm at least keeping, I'm remaining open to the possibility that it's a die job with two purposes. One, just to have gone through this fake Darren Gambit in the first place and mask his identity there for a little while. Because the more, it's like if he, if anyone has seen Darren at any point sending a silver-haired kid in his place is like instant risk of discovery, you know?

Like if anyone had told Damon what color hair he has. But it's why I think Allison immediately knew that kid wasn't. Sure. But he might also just be like he's too small. Yeah. But I think the fact that to your point about just this like sense of, um, You know, Ormond is in this episode, and very sexist when he talks about Renera, right, laughs talking about a woman on the throne. The Targ racism is abundant from him, but more broadly in all respects, this sense of, to your point, like the High Tower superiority. So the idea of like just making Darren cosplay as a High Tower is at least interesting to me as a possibility. I don't know if that's what's happening.

Can I sprinkle in another popular theory, which is that Vassaris is not his dad? Like this is another question is like the timeline doesn't really work out as far as I can turn for when Allison was sleeping with other people But that is many people are asking is it possible? Yeah That Allison had Darren not with her Targaryan DeCrepit husband Maybe to make sure A makes sure that he's not a Targaryian or you know for any other reason I don't know if the show is prepared to go I don't know that attracts for Allison's character I felt like when she fucked Kristen, it was a real, like, my husband died and I'm in mourning.

But I think just the fact that, like, I don't know if the show is ready to open up that question about, like, the Targaryen lineage and dragon riding if Darren doesn't actually have Targaryen blood. And I think also just the fact that, like, Ormond is really pressing on the taint in his blood, as he calls it. It's more interesting to me if he is actually of the Targaryen line and has to make a choice between these aspects of his identity. We have a great, you know, moment in our Thrones viewing past, something like John and and Theon, you know, you don't have to choose. And it's like, well, maybe that's true for some characters in some moments and maybe it isn't.

You know, could Theon have chosen to be a stark and a Greyjoy and embraced that totality? Sure. Can Darren choose to be a High Tower and a Targaryen? Maybe. Maybe he has to choose one or the other. I think it's going to be interesting to see if this corruption leads to Darren falling into the Two Diligent School of Ormond High Tower or if he pushes back and resist and rejects it. Is there any character in that? the show that is truly by.

And when I say that, I mean by house. Is there a truly by house character? I think Darren is a, it seems like our version of that, maybe. Could be. Unless he just rejects the High Tower part of it. Joffrey was clearly, clearly a Lannister, right? Right. Oh, yeah.

Clearly, Atlanta. What about the Valerian, like, what about like Bayla and Raina? That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a great one. Those are the only ones I can really think of because most of them choose an identity because even if they have a name, they choose an identity. Yeah.

Like, so there's that's interesting. I don't know that we've ever, have we ever watched someone have to wrestle between two houses and this way in the history of the show? Well, I like that Theon example, this idea that like Theon was like, even John learning the truth about his Targary history

and having the stark aspect of that, which was always complicated. I think it's a, it's a focus of the show, given what the like name of your house and standing of your family kind of says about you and the business you're supposed to conduct in the realm. I think the orman, I was curious to ask you guys about,

what your read is on Ormond and the faith right now. Because, okay, inside of this episode, he once again makes a pledge slash swears a vow of a fashion that he does not for a second intend to keep. It's just theater. What he does with Kat's brother, his brother-in-law, the Smith, who he has Darren. Who doesn't have a name. Kill at the end. I'm like, just calling him brother-in-law.

But can I just say, I was sad watching him now. Oh, same. Because, sorry, not because they did a great job of establishing that character, though, like, you know, he was noble. He's defending his wife. and his sister from a rapist, another rape on Game of Thrones. Thank you so much. But because of Darren, like, I feel bad saying this, but like, because it was such a tense moment for Darren.

And so I was so emotionally invested in this guy begging for his life because of what it meant for this kid going forward. I knew this guy's toast. Like, he's not making it out of the episode. But, like, what is the death of this innocent due to Darren Targaryen going forward? Absolutely. And more broadly, and I know this is something you wanted to hit later today, like this question of what it means to be a member of a community,

the small folk, when the people who seek to rule and control you are, again, like on the prisoners list, the inhabitants of Tumbledin is certainly very high on the list, right? They have to make room in their home for the soldiers. So Ormond says, Garrick, you did this horrible thing, I'm going to gild you, I'm going to break your arm. It's bullshit, right? Ormond reveals to Darren at the end the truth and reveals that to us.

Does he do both, though? Like he gelt, doesn't he not also gelden? Break his guy. I thought he did both. Entirely possible, but the fact that he says to Darren in that sept scene where he is trying to stifle and suppress Darren's literal dragon, but also the Targaryian aspect of his identity in the casing of the faith and High Tower imagery. This guy hung not Egon's gold dragon on a green field royal standard for Team Green.

He hung High Tower banners in Tumbledin. The gall of that is astonishing. So my question is like... I'm not astounded. That's classic High Tower Bay Area. And, like, the Bolton's take Winterfell and they hang the flayed man. What a scene would that happen. He's there in theory on behalf of this.

But, like, the fact that-Army. That Agon's, like, banner is green in the first place. Sure. Because of, like, High Tower branding. Absolutely. And that goes back to Allison's mistakes and sins along the way. Auto's pursued. All of it is very entwined with the High Tower.

I mean, I think Ormond is articulating it to a degree that we haven't quite heard. My purpose is to restore the rightful line. The gods have put you to divine purpose. Victory will be ours. It is the will of the gods. That doesn't mean Darren as the king of Team Green Targ. It means the high tower is ruling. So he's...

He wants a redhead on that. He does. He bent the knee last week, had no intention of keeping the pledge. He does this thing where he pretends because he knows the villagers are watching that he's going to care if they err and do things wrong.

He's there to protect the people. He says to Darren, that guy's an extension of you. We can't let them harm him of the soldier Garrick. So he's close. He's choking himself in faith. My question is, is he a true believer who does not identify his own hypocrisy?

Or is the faith yet another bit of his cosplay? No, I think he's using, he's like, whatever I need to say in order to get closer to power, I will. And if it's cloaking myself in the faith, I will. If it's saying dragons are like an abomination, but also wielding this one like a blowtorch, I will, you know, he wanted to use Vagar. Like, it's not like he wasn't going to use, you know, Vagar and Eamon when he showed up. So it's like, it doesn't matter what he says. The only thing that matters is if he can smell delicious spices or incenses and have his bath. I don't know.

Well, he did something in the episode that was pretty priestly. He showed his dick to somebody who didn't want to see it. Okay, I want to ask you. The power of the bath was really something. So, like, I'm like, yeah, this guy's probably a priest of some sort. Like, it's like, it's so, look. But with the scene with the guy, once again, I know we have to move past this. I just want to say this.

For Darren watching what he thought was a positive thing happening in this world. Right. You see belief. You see his face. He's like, oh, my God, he's a good guy. Yeah. This can all be great. This is dope.

This is amazing. And then what you have to do is snatch it away and go, we must kill, we must feast, we must fuck, we must rule. Yeah. And so, like, that's really important because Game of Thrones as a show has to continuously do that to the audience. Sure. As it continues, let the audience know, hey, man, you're not going to get your happy ending.

This is a fucked up world. It's Thrones, maybe. I want to ask you a little bit more van about Ormond Hightower because I feel like, so what's so interesting about the story and especially the way that this show is telling it of a Targary and Civil War is the point the show is making is there is no real bad guy. There are bad actors on both sides and everyone is right and everyone is wrong in their own way. And that is what's so interesting and conflicting about the Dance of Dragons. Otto is horrible, but is he right that Damon is a piece of shit? Yeah, Damon is a piece of shit,

but is he right that Vassaris is a weak king. Like the show has been so invested in sort of balancing the scales to a certain degree. I've been team black, but like to a certain degree between the two teams that we haven't had like a pure uncut villain like Ormond Hightower, I would argue, so far on the show. And it is a thing that I feel like has kicked this closer to feeling like Thrones to me than the show has so far. I like the murky morality of the Civil War, but I am relishing the Ormond High Tower of it all. So I was wondering that I wanted to ask you, like sort of when you think of Ormond High Tower, in the context of other villains on Thrones, of the Lannisters, Tywin, Sersy Joff, of Ramsey and Ruth Bolton, the High Sparrow, dare I say,

you're on Greyjoy, like all these other villains. Like, how necessary is like a delicious villain, we can all agree to hate him kind of character on Thrones. And where's this guy? I know it's early, but where's this guy rang for you? I think characters like that orient the world. They are the ones we, this is the world that's not oriented by the heroes. It's oriented by how bad things could be. And that lets you kind of connect to the noble people that are in this show, the pure heroes,

the John Snow's and the stuff like that. And also kind of understand like the Danis and even the Damans. Yeah. Like the people who are. kind of more utilitarian in their villainy or she gets to her villainy at the end. I think he's very important. I think he's also very important for leveling out this. Like when you would listen to people talk about this that had red fire and blood,

they'd be like this show is too skewed to the blacks. And that's changing rapidly in this season. Rapidly as we see the strain that the rule puts on you, you start to see that maybe there wasn't any nobility that was existing in Team Black. there was just desperation. They were clinging on each other as family and all of that stuff because they had to. Now that they don't, Corlis is gone. Everybody's pissed off.

No one's working together. That's the wildest move for me. That the hand of the queen is just sort of like without even like giving his notice, just like skips the small council meeting and is leaving. Your children. That reminded me of one of my family reunions. People get too drunk and they go, you know them kids ain't for you. Why we pretend?

Don't give them no more sweet potato pie. But, but, but. Queen of Bastard's graffiti in the, in the streets now. So, so like when I look at him, it's very important that a guy like that exists to where we can litigate his actual morality. We can continuously ask the question, which we ask on Game of Thrones of villains, are they right? Right. Is he right? And what he's saying, the Targaryans are ripping the world apart.

Is he right? Would things not be better off if they got in there? At least they would be more functional. And then we just get to sneer at someone. It was hard to sneer at anybody in the show because everybody had a case to why they were doing what they were doing. And now we back. He showed his dick to people that didn't ask.

By the way, confident. Confident. I think about the scene with Rod Titwell and Jerry McGuire. Where Rod Titwell pops out and he's like, I like to air dry. So you know that that guy's confident when he shows his peace to people. Something that James Norton said before the season started because someone who had seen this episode asked him about the bear ass scene and his performance, and he's like, you know, I decided to go sort of like as kind of camp as possible

in this performance. I decided to go kind of big with it. And I, and he's like, and those are the how big they kept? You have to be. Mallory, do you want to talk about Ormond in relation to other villains in the show? Do you want to talk about his ass in relation to other asses we've seen on Game of Thrones? I mean, I think I, I think this has been like a very exciting thing to have this character in the show. We've talked a lot over the last few weeks about the Thai win comp, in part because, you know, we've been getting emails from our listeners about it, in part because, you know, Ryan Condal, the showrunner, has been talking about how they were excited to try to introduce

this story's version of Taiwan into the story. And some of that is about means and resources. Some of it is about the unknowable quality of operating in the shadows. I think this was an episode that showed us that that is very true and very not true about Ormond in a way that I find exciting. It's actually not interesting. And I think it would be very risky because Taiwan is, I mean, we had him at number one on our best villains of the century so far. Because he is. podcast that we did. I think just trying to basically copy and paste Tywin,

you can't. I mean, the Charles dance performance is historic. The character's indelible. So give us some connective tissue to Taiwan, but with a twist. The tantrums. Yeah. Taking the Valerian steel sword, the ancestral sword of House High Tower vigilance and throwing a

fucking temper tantrum, trying to turn a very sturdy wood table, by the way, really held up well in the face of Valerian Steel into cinders is fucking embarrassing, right? He's acting like a little kid. Taiwan, it's almost impossible to imagine Taiwan doing something similar. I think the other thing is thinking about the relationships, like the level of respect. You know, I always think of something like the season two line about Taiwan, which was the big line in the trailers.

Seven kingdoms united in fear of Taiwan Lanster. That's what Orman wants, but that's not where he is. So he's a striver. He's not operating from the same position of assurance that Taiwan was, and that's, I think, an important distinction in terms of how they behave. The comp that was undeniable in this episode is, I'm going to take the person who is king or about to be king and teach them the way I want them to learn. So he gives Darren lesson after lesson in this episode, including a righteous king must demonstrate he upholds many virtues, honor, wisdom, justice. Poor Darren is like, what about mercy? the most venom we've heard from Ormond yet was the snap of that sounds like something your father would say.

Now, we've been very critical of Vassaris, but I loved the reminder that he was merciful. I felt very defensive with Viseris in that moment. Seeing his dusty Legos also made me look at men. I know, but infested by rites. But the Tom and Tywin, what makes a good king scene in front of Geoffrey's body? Is it holiness? Is it justice? Is it strength?

No, it's wisdom. That's sort of Tywin, because it was the wisdom to listen to him. But also you could see that Tomon was like, I'm learning. something that's not the look on Darren's face in these scenes with Ormond. What I think is wild, I want to hear from him, but what I think is wild is when we, what I love in this episode is we hear Gwain talk about Orman and we hear Allison talk about Ormond. You know, it's like, we're seeing him and we're hearing the people who grew up around him talk about him as well.

And so we're getting all of their, we're getting this sort of like prismatic picture of him. But for Allison to talk about him in the same terms we've heard Viseris mentioned, you know, that he's a scholar, is a student of history. Tapestries. You know, like all that sort of stuff. And I'm just sort of like, the Vassaris comp is really interesting to me. Fascinating. What did you want to say?

Not from what we know from the past, because, you know, drowned a whole family and all of that stuff. But just from what we saw on the show, did you guys think of Tylin Lanister as particularly cruel? Yes, to his own children. Yeah. I thought that was like the measuring stick is like how horrible he was to his own children. I don't know why, but I never did. Okay. I thought of him as.

I would be consumed by maggots before. before I let you turn castorly rock into your horror house is maybe the most cruel thing any character said to another at any point in the show. However, however, not making it up. Tywin Linister had some points. He's having a Tyrion in his whole life. He has been, and like he blames Tyrion,

even in that, though, he blames Tyrion for the death of his wife, right? And then he looks down, but he was the ultimate pragmatist to me, and he was pragmatic in times where he should, have been fatherly. And that's what made him bad to me. What it made him bad was that he didn't have a heart for anyone. It was legitimately he had built the Lannister's backup and now he wasn't going to let anybody fuck with it, even if it was his own children. And I think that is one of the things that is most closely associated with what I see from Ormond right now. They're both obsessed with legacy. Right. Taiwan was always invoking the idea of legacy.

I would also like to be a part of this. No doubt. The Allison flagging the odor concern to Cool little moment. What's going to happen? Are they going to have a dragon fart on this pillow? Dragon shit. Dragon shit tactical warfare. My hope, my theory earlier because we had seen in the trailer him take that sword to the table. Yeah.

And so my theory is that they're going to like hide bad smelling things in Tumbledon that he can't find to drive him crazy. I don't think this one's going to happen. I think they're going to have just like a dragon carpet bomb the city was shit. But I think it would be really more, like much more fun if they just like hid smelly shit all over the city. And Ormond's like, where is it coming from? This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales.

Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations. More time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture. At Volvo, safety is not a feature. It's our purpose. Rigorous crash testing, decades of learning from real accidents, innovations that help prevent accidents before they happen, and help protect you when they occur. Going above and beyond industry standards, a vision of zero collisions.

Volvo's legacy revolves around you because safety is about helping to keep you and everyone around you safe for life. Learn more at bolvocars.caps.ca slash safety. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor.

But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Dr. Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day. in theaters July 31st. I want to talk about Alice.

Let's do it. Your girl is thriving. The witch queen of Harenhall. Appears to have had a bit of a glow-up, right? She always looks sensational, but she's like, I swear to you. There is no way the dress she's wearing did not come from Simon Strong's personal store of purple velvet. Like, she raided the closet. She's wearing gold and, like, queenly velvet now.

She looks fantastic. Is it because all of the other people? people there are gone now and it's just hers to rule now. Yeah, but the question is, and we've all read the book, so we know the answer, but we don't talk about that sort of stuff here, but like, where is Aman and Vagar? Where are Aiman and Vagar? How is Vagar one of the biggest, like, we hear in this very episode, Jade Aaron said, hey, as you flew Karaxes through the veil, I got raven after raven. Everyone was talking about it. Everyone was talking about it. Kraxie's a much smaller dragon than Vagar. So why has no one has

Is this any fucking idea where Vagar is? That's insane. Did Alice, has Alice made him invisible? Oh, I love this. You know what? Let's play out the string on this for a second. It's my only theory. You can't hide Vagar.

Hold on. That makes a fuck ton of sense because I'm wondering, no, I swear to God. She walks out there and asking all of these questions. Like, there's a gigantic dragon. She's put some kind of hex over the castle. Well, I mean, Kristen and Gawain and their soldiers have a very now familiar entrance to like walking through the creepy hallways. Spooky, swords and puddles, swords out.

But their reaction to the sounds they were hearing, including a goat, yet again a goat, wonderful stuff. No, a bleed from a goat the second before she appears. Yes. Well, this is a, I mean, for a further father for your theory. Do you think Alice can shape shift into a goat? Because we keep seeing goats and then we see Alice.

She said she was a bar now. Why not a goat? So, like, to me, she's like one of the more, I think the show's much better without aiming, but I think it... I don't disagree, honestly. I think the, I think the show is much better without him. Not because it's not a good character. Just because when you take him away,

you don't have to focus on him and the smaller things that kind of shape this world. I really agree. Yeah, I think the show is much better without him. I think it'll be awesome to see how it fits when he comes back into it. I don't think he's a white character. I just him and Vagar being off the board,

they take away this kind of dread. And now it becomes more of a human show. The missing dread is even more palpable. And I think when Vagar and Amon can just like torch anything. any given time. It's less interesting than then like, okay, now Orman has to figure out how to make Tessarian his WMD. You know, like, what do we do?

Or even just Egon hearing not only that it's out there that he's dead, but that the story is that Aymond killed him and having to be like, fuck, one, this guy is still hurting me and burning me even in his absence. The, when they're walking, when they're hearing the sounds, now we've heard creepy, ghostly Haranhall sounds every time we've been in Haranol. That's just like, that's our brass tacks at this point. But there was something that, like, I was like, is Vagar about to appear? Because it sounded like, oh, you thought it was a sneak job.

The heft of a dragon hiding. And I'm like, maybe that's just the classic crumbling walls of Harenh. Vagher's just behind a column, perhaps invisible. Oh, Vagar, that's hilarious. He's just like, wait. But what did you want to say about Alice? Oh, no. It was interesting to see her as lady of the entire manner.

Yeah. Because they've done a lot of character work with her. and I was like, these fucking guys are in danger. Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, these guys are actually, if she decides that if they, if they don't stand down from wanting to find him and wanting to find Vagar, if they don't like settle into. And then, of course, Cole goes into his whole, what a monologue, by the way.

Yeah. Goes into his whole dude. He's amazing. Fucking killing. Yeah. But I'm like, these guys are actually in danger. I thought halfway that she might fuck over them at that point that something was going to happen. Well, the thing that's interesting for us as viewers is like, we actually have not gotten an update on Eamon since we saw him.

stabbed in the kidney and since he fell at Alice's feet and begged her to help him. We actually, we were like waiting for news. That's what I'm saying. So we don't know from an adaptive point of view where Aman and Vagar are. The thing we know is that she lied to them because she did not offer off that he had been injured. She just said she's trying to sew dissent because she was here and then he left. She withholds the fact that he, the way Kristen and Norman are both like, I can't believe that Aman would abandon us like this.

It's really funny to me. I know. But they were counting on that. Yeah, sure. Let's talk. Kristen was like, he wouldn't do this to me. Let's talk about Kristen Cole. So, like, Mallory pointed out really, I thought intelligently, as always, in the first episode of the season that Kristen Cole was painting his house sigil.

Yeah. House Cole on his shield when they were in the camp. And Gwen's like, hey, should we take care of these rapists? And Kristen's like, you do it. You take care of it. I'm busy with my arts and crafts, right? So House Cole. So he is, like, thinking a lot about where he came from.

And, Mallory, your interpretation was sort of like that he was embracing that, that identity to a certain degree. But I think it's really interesting in this scene that he's like, you know, we were at the whim of the Dondarians. Like, we were nothing. And if Reneer is on the throne, I'm nothing. There's nothing for me to go back to. House Cole is not a home for me to return to. So, like, this existential poet, Kristen Cole continues apace. But, like, you love this model?

Like, what do you guys think of this moment? Van, what do you think? So, you know how Ulf, the episode before, she's giving out names and Oof goes, Tragher. She goes, oh, God. Yeah, yeah. She's like, absolutely not.

She gives them a name, whatever. Ulf is a lowborn who never thought that they would be in a position to actually be in the business of the highborn people and now is trying to figure out how to use his utility to pay off for him and for his boys. Yeah. Incredible. Get some drinks for his boys.

And it's like a little, some crimes. So you don't need to get into them. Something by Rosby. Don't worry about it. When I look at Cole, who has killed for so long for other people. Kingmaker. Like an absolute kingmaker, someone that's killed so long for other people. I always wonder with a character like that, when do they go, you know what?

Fuck it. It's about me. It's about me now. Like, well, how can I make this benefit me? Yeah. And when that character who you are expecting to be a cog in this will, both from a warfare standpoint of honor what a knight's supposed to do, when they go off on their own, it's always destabilizing.

It always becomes something that is unpredictable to people who need him to act in exactly the way they want him to act in order to achieve their goals. And so in that monologue, I was just watching him go, you know what, fuck it. I'm going to do in this situation what I think needs to. be done. Yeah. And I'm not going to kind of be pulled on anymore. I'm going to go do this because it's about me.

I think that's really interesting. And I want to think about that more. But I really like what you said about sort of destabilizing the soldier, the general, when you remove him. And I was like thinking about what Cole and Gwain are going through and Gwain being like, this sucks. Can we go to Dutton? This is what we need to do.

But like it feels like a Vietnam War story. Like he's just out in the wilderness Away from sort of like the The rules and regulations of the white cloak And everything that he was told And he's like Colonel Kurtz out in the jungle Losing his marbles Having seen the horrors that he's seen of war

At Rook's Rest So he's got this PTSD from Rook's Rest He's out here seeing charred bodies and horses As they're riding up to Heron Hall So he's like, I'm really excited to do this without dragons Because dragons are horrible But also I just like this idea of like This is this is the regimented

soldier out in the wilderness and what happens when you have to make your own rules. If we die, we die. We die. Yeah, I feel like Kristen was a character across the timeline from the beginning of the show whose pursuit of ambition, Van, to your point, was like, I move forward, right? I move forward into places I never thought I would inhabit. The King's Guard, sworn shield, eventually handed the King. It astonished even him.

I think that that happened, right? But he's still wearing that necklace. He sure is. the, even courtless when he left, still had the hand of the grand pin, which was so funny. He's got the hand of the king armor is on there. I felt like guilty that we told Chris we were done with the triarchy. Clearly not. He's like, I'm going to go clean up some triarchy remnants here.

Chris will be thrilled. Kristen, you know, the white cloak, the idea of the righteous pursuit, always putting stock and meeting and his, forging his identity through these symbols. And so when he was painting the sigil of his own house and the way he talked about his family here, I feel like he has lost the ability to believe in the ideal, right? Dragon War took that away from him, to what you're saying. All he has now is the ability to try to reconnect and reclaim the thing that he was distancing himself from, which is I'm actually just a man.

Now, if I were Gawain, I would say, didn't you tell me at the end of season two in the finale that to die would be kind of a relief? I don't know if I'm really up for what you're pitching. Well, I think this is why Gwain sends a Raven to Tomlton when it's a final. He told him not to. Right. So there's obviously a little bit of a divide there and how they see the world. And the fact that Kristen is like the thing that you said about beasts and honor.

Yeah, this is how I'm going to like pretend that we're talking about the same thing. It's so clear that they're not. I mean, the look of horror on Gawain's face. Great Gawain episode because it's when Darren had the like brightness on his face. Is Gawain coming? Yeah, yeah. You know, that was really lovely. Kristen is seeking any form of purpose.

I don't know that it's like that he loves Gwain, but he's like a layer of protection from Orman. Yeah. Gawain just seems blissfully normal in this entire thing. He started off seeming like a kind of a weak bitch-ass n-ass n-a-nigger for a while. And then like as we, in Word on Talk to Thrones first time. It's like, and as we continue to go, he starts becoming somebody that's a little bit in over his head. But in a very, very, very, very relatable way. Yeah.

And so now when I could see him being comforting to him because he's like, is somebody that I can talk to just going to show up in his motherfucker I love that. I think it's, I'm just really interested to track these two and they're, you know,

their, they're paltry few handful of people that they have left with them. This idea of like guerrilla tactics inside of Game of Thrones. The river skin.

I'm really excited to see. I don't, I don't know how that's going to go. Cole does not seem to certain that they're going to win, but he wants to try to slow them down and hurt them. He just wants some purpose,

meaning and glory. I just see him come up out of the mud and this like real apostol's now moment. He wants something for himself. He wants to call his own shot. He wants to do something. He doesn't want to have to wait on a dragon or wait on anything like that. To feel like he has a place in any of it. To feel like he has a place of any of it.

Like when he's when he's given that monologue, he's talking about what everybody else has. But then he also talks about what he comes from. Sure. Like what he is. And it seems like he wants to honor that. Which is something Gawain had like weaponized to mock him in season two. and now Kristen is trying to reclaim it. Did you think it was purposeful that Alice called herself the steward?

Yes. It's like she's in Kristen's head, right? She knows that he's thinking about his dad, thinking about what it meant to be a steward of a girl. She's in everyone. Yeah, I love her. Very good. Big reveal, I would say in this episode, is that Helena is pregnant. That is how I am interpreting what we just saw there.

You guys can say that. I can't say that. Those tits are swollen. Yeah, never. Yeah, and she sort of like reached for the abdomen. And so. I laughed. Why was I laughing?

I was laughing hysterically. I laughed when we see Helena in the background just like she's struggling to get her nightgown on. I was watching with my mom. My mom was like, oh, she fucking pregnant. Oh, yeah. No question. Yeah.

So this is a, both a book change and also an attempt to sort of like reconcile with what's true in the book, which is that Helena has another kid in the book. And I don't know that we need to like go into all the details of what's going on with the kid, but I think it's really interesting. I think we can talk about this and you can tell me if you don't think we can. But like the absence of that kid in this adaptation, Helena's other kid, was the real sore spot for George R. Martin. He called it out specifically. So I think it's interesting that they're like, okay, the kid's not here, but she is pregnant.

So this idea of another kid for Helena is being introduced into the mix. Mal, do you want to like, how much do you think we can talk about or speculate about how this might play out? I think there's a lot we can say, actually. like we won't get into any of the stuff that happens with that kid who does exist in the book. Obviously, we won't touch that. But to your George point, that's the now infamous Beware the Butterflies blog post about what certain adaptive changes mean for not only events for those characters, but other characters. I think it's interesting to think about in a couple, like, so there's the real world connection

there. In terms of in the show, there's just the, we were like talking on the deep dive after episode three, how long has passed. This is like a bit of timeline clarity that's just, I think, helpful for viewers. that like we know agon's cock exploded like a sausage on a spit at rookstress. If that's Agon's kid. Either not his kid or it's just a way to kind of cement that it's not been that long since Rook's dress, which we also feel when Agon and Lairus are there looking at Maly's as,

you know, beheaded corpse still fresh, people looting the corpses in the battlefield. It's not super fresh. Pretty rank actually. Covered in flies. Very tough. I think that the idea of a nut, if it is Agon's kid or people will assume it's The Agon's kid, either way. The idea of, we're not going to go back and make blood and cheese more intense by having that choice.

That's done, right? But what will the realm think if there is another child is huge, right? And it's huge for what the realm thinks. But obviously for us as viewers, the more important part is, what does Renira do once she knows this? Helena, you're a danger girl. Yeah. And I think the fact now, in hindsight, to last week's episode, that we spent so much. much time. It was kind of comical the way

Damon kept being like, you're going to have to kill Darren, right? And that was interesting to see how Reneera processed that and what choices she moved in and out of. The fact that in this episode, Reneera says to Allison, I wouldn't have spared him, you know, and on both of their faces, it's like, would you have?

So this is on our minds. It's like not only a Darren consideration, but a primer for that. That's interesting. I interpreted that differently. I thought Allison really believed her when she's like, I would have spared him. That's why she offers up that information about Ormond. She's just sort of like, I do think you would have spared time. But I think Allison is thinking back to what she said to Renera last episode,

which is like just the weight of the burden of being on the throne, of having the crown, whatever you think you want to do and whoever you think you are, that's lost. It's changed undeniably and inevitably, whether you want to believe that's sure or not. Why do you think Allison would in that moment give her something in exchange for that moment? Because she's trying to get her exit still.

Like she's trying to preserve her part of the fact. But I think the fact that Renera, the flip side is, she was appalled after blood and cheese appalled that Damon did this thing appalled that Helena's child who was also Agon's child was killed appalled that a young person was killed Reneira has now lost two of her sons

and knows what that grief is like so you have these different aspects of people saying you are the challenge right going back to season one you can't leave a threat to your reign alive with like what is still in Reneera's heart which is like compassionate care she brings Allison that ring

You know, I got all those bones back. Here's this ring. Vesaris would want it. There is care and love and humanity. Which of those will win out as the story keeps being told. Yeah. And also, you know, I keep coming back to the fact that these people are like family. Yeah.

Right. And even in the last episode, she goes, she's talking to fake Darren. She goes, you are my half-brother. Mm-hmm. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. You took up with the usurper. What do you have to say for yourself?

I love that sound. Like, they're all family, right? So this baby represents this incredible threat to, like, the throne. Yeah, sure. But it's also like her grandbaby, right? It's also like that would be Allison's... Allison's grandbaby. It's also her grandbaby, right?

And it would be Reneira's... And also Reneer likes Helena. Yeah, love... You know, right. So, like, you look at this and there's going to be this double source of dread. Number one, you're in danger. Number one, this child that I am hardwired to love is in danger. And also something else just about to show.

that between them gave Helena's character some narrative agency. I really liked it because she was like, it's clear that she knows and she's been hiding. So like now we wonder, oh, she's been aloof. She's been away. She's been trying to hide this. Now we know. Now when we see her,

she doesn't come into the show as an afterthought anymore. It raises the stakes for every scene that she's in. Absolutely. Van, what do you think of Agon's sort of undercover boss storyline? that we get in this episode. Man, let me tell you, since I was a kid, I love the prince and the popper. I love stories where noble people have to go into the world and see the way other people live. And separate the piss from the shit.

Separate the piss from the shit because it always reorients their understanding of humanity. Like there's a world where him being down there actually makes him a better future ruler because he more understands, like, what's going on. Yeah, when he's like, is this how you rule running out of food for your people? And you're like, buddy, egg on. Right. Look in the mirror. Like the entire thing, right?

He just kind of gets this crash course on what it takes to live down there. Yeah. Because to live where he's lived, like he's prepared for that since birth. I love all of that stuff. We'll say that when Game of Thrones wants to get disgusting. Yeah. Just those boots. You can smell the world.

The world. Yeah. But I think there wasn't as much of them, Laris is the other guy, right? Yeah. There wasn't as much of them in the episode. Yeah. But it was perfectly sprinkled in to like take the episode over the top. I also think Laris is like so funny.

When the look he gets on his face, when he's getting threatened, he's like, you wouldn't hurt a member of the faith, would you? Like, it's just like so funny. How many times can this motherfucker talk himself out of getting his shit pushed in? Yeah. Every time, he knows exactly what to say. which is why he's the best character on the show. A ruler and a survivor. Yeah, yeah.

He is completely brave. Yeah. Like, devastatingly focused. Yeah. And every single time someone is talking to him, he just lets them know one sentence, I'm a little bit smarter than you are. He's like, oh, no, here's my entire coin purse

when, like, he definitely has other money on his person, not to mention the, they have the crown. We talked a lot about Team Green. I do want to make sure we talk about Team Black. Yes. I do think we should just quickly note, though, the Sunfire thing. that Egon is like, my boy, I'm here, I'm here. He's alive. I know it. He's alive. He must be

wake up, Sunfire. I'm here. Heartbreaking. Warns us to Egan, a character who has done a lot of terrible things, but you see that bond, that desperate need to believe that the way he's holding one of his scales as he walks forward. I think on the Laris front, the thing that's interesting about it is, like, I agree, he's a schemer, he's a plodder, he's always a step ahead. He's incredibly smart and observant and attuned. He shares something else with other characters who are not Targaryens, which is failing to really appreciate and prize the bond between a rider and their dragon. We've got Laris being like, I know you're sad. Let's go. You said you wanted to see him. You saw him. Let's move on. We had Allison say to Amand when he was a kid, like your obsession with

those beasts goes beyond understanding. We have Ormond just hand waving, Darren saying don't show any affection to this. Part of what I loved about Damon and we can transition into Team Black from here. Damon and Raina was like, Damon, saying to Raina, not. Not wrongly, by the way, we saw what happened at the gullet. Wild Dragon, it's not going to happen. You're not going to be able to control it. This is like nuts. Very purposeful on the show, on the show's part,

that as that is happening, Caraxis is ignoring everything that Damon says. Oh, yeah. Obey. This is the first time we've seen Coraxis. Yeah. But in the show, this show is doing a great job of explaining just how intimate these relationships are.

Because Caraxis is like, hey, dad, there's something that you have to see. Yes. It's like, no, obey, serve, serve, serve. serve my ass. Look, your daughter's over here, put a wild dragon, and they shacking up. Yeah. Like, I know better.

I got your back. I protect you. But like, and that to me made what Ormond said at the end of the episode. Yeah. Even more like out of touch. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't understand the culture of the Targaryians. He doesn't understand what he's actually asking this guy, this kid to step away from how

dangerous to suppress. You know what I mean? So he doesn't even get what it is that he's talking about. And I really like this. this, the, the, the Raina, Darren, sort of, what makes the Targary, Targaryen a question I'm always interested in asking, but like, sort of Raina's like, a Targaryen without a dragon, pathetic, shunned, you never thought of me. The show didn't give a shit about me. Like, nobody cared about Raina until she found Sheep Steeler, you know, and for Darren to be like, okay, my dragon's in chains,

and I'm using, you know, this has High Tower sword to kill some, but like I'm being asked to suppress this dragon nature inside of me, either with hair dye or otherwise. I think it's really interesting. No, I think about, I can't help but thinking. So, you know, she never had a dragon. Yeah. She reminds me of the family member that doesn't fit in with the rest of the family. And so she goes and starts fucking with drugs.

Because even when she, I'm serious, even when she walks out, she has the look of a wire character or Pookie from New Jack City. I need to ask you about the wig. It's terrible. Go ahead. Like, go ahead. But so when she... It's very bad. It is.

Sheep stealer is like her narcotic. It's like she's chasing the high of being... Chasing the dragon. Chasing the dragon of being like a part of her family. And she basically told her dad, she goes, yo man, I'm not getting off coat. So go like, I'm not ready to stop drinking. Yeah.

Go tell your wife or whoever, what the fuck you need to tell them. If you want to sell me out, you can sell me out. But I'm about to go back and hear and get high again. And you didn't care what I was doing before. So you care now? Just keep on not caring. Keep on doing what you've been doing.

I love that aspect of isolation leads to desperation and the decision to stay and claim sheepseal her in the first place and to fly into the gullet with no prep leads to isolation. Sheepseller. Very of a piece with Cindy.

Sheep still is sharing that crew with her felt like more than anything that her family had ever done. Yeah. Absolutely. Damon flustered is a very rare thing. I'm just trying to remember. I thought that team was great.

It was so awesome. He was like, yo, I actually do. Really good. Kind of love you. I don't want you to be in here. I do remember that you exist, kind of. And it's like, I don't want you. And then he makes his decision in a grotesque way to protect his daughter.

He does. Yeah. And part of like his Heron Hall awakening that we've talked about so much through the lens of Vissaris and Reneer and the prophecy was also Lina's specter appearing to him and saying, like, have you looked after our girls? And what was the answer? I have not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to be confronted with the cost of that. But I also liked seeing.

Damon, badass of Westeros, dive out of the way when Sheep Steeler and Rainer come out of the cave. Yeah. Like, she's on the back of that Wild Dragon and she's like, fuck you, dad, I don't have to listen to you. I'm on drugs or I've got a big car or whatever you want to say. All right. Let's talk about the Team Black small council. Locked into place, right? We still got some empty spots here, but like, Master of Coin, Torrin, Mardley's like, has anyone ever heard of attacks?

Incredible. I love this guy. I also love this guy. I'm using so far. Masaria's got the most influential spot, I would say, right? Raina is like, we're going to give all the gold to the small folk. Yes. And Damon's like...

What's her exact position? Mistress of Whisper. Which was Laris's job. Laris's job, yeah. Yeah. And so, Renair's like, we're giving all the money to the pores. And Damon's like, you got to give it to the cops, Renera. And she's like, no, we'll let the cops abuse the pores, but we'll give the poor people

their gold. And Damon's like, this kind of ruling is not going to go well. But the constant Masaria, Damon, sort of grappling for influence inside of the small council is interesting. Alan's there. Though I did like his scene with Reneira, I felt like this is the first time. Something I've been saying about Alan that has been, like, frustrating to me is he seems so, like, one note. All of his scenes are about his legitimacy with his father. And so the scene that Reneer and Alan have right around the dusty Lego set of a Sarac's Lego set,

I thought it was so beautiful because, yes, it's still about. father. It is. But like, it's about him connecting with another character. Yeah.

About him having advice to give to her, not just about the cats, but just sort of like what Corlis needs in this moment. And I just thought this was like a big step

forward for a character that I've been like really searching for more depth from. He reminds me the most of John. Tell me more. Really? Yeah, because he's noble born in shame.

Yeah. Just like John. And like John was going. into the wall, all of that stuff, but through task, John proved his psychic nobility, his emotional nobility, his worth. Yeah. And so the only way that Alan has been able to prove his worth to his father, to this realm,

now to his queen, simply by saying something that my grandmother and father told me when I was a kid, we got rats in the barn, let's go get a cat. Like legitimately, hey, I see a couple rats in the barn. I'm trying to feed the horses. My grandma, a baby, go down there and talk to the ladies. She got some kittens down there. What the hell that's going to do? Put a cat in there.

Rats, gone. I'm so excited for the future of the Red Keep swarmed with cats. Same, though I'd be obviously then very nervous about their well-being, you know? Sir Pounce. Yeah. But maybe it's like a Sir Pounce ancestor. So he's proven his worth as a sailor, as a combatant. He's proven his worth as a son, really.

And now quickly, just with a little thing, proven his worth. as an aide of the king. Is he the hand now? He's the hand of the queen. He's sitting in the hands chair. He's not, he cannot be the hand. That would be the craziest thing ever. And the reason why I say that he reminds me of him is because there's still a purity to the character.

Yeah. To where it really feels like in every situation, he's taking the opportunity to do what he legitimately thinks is right. That's right. Yeah. For sure. I want to close out by asking Mallory, I thought this is a really good or a while episode. and Orlisle is a character who has been around, like, since the beginning, not since the beginning, but for a long time. And now is being given much more to do.

And this is an actor I've always enjoyed in like many things. But I just feel like finally they're writing him scenes where he gets to actually do more. And he's engaging in one of the larger themes of the episode, which is like the faith. And also sort of where does the rubber meet the road? And he's like, oh, are we going to, are we to kill the septon? Is that what we need to do? I'll do it. What do you need me to do?

You're getting? No, you were so blessed. She goes, oh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So how are you feeling about Orwell or anyone else in the council you want to talk about? I think in general it was just like a fascinating.

And this has been true all season, like a fascinating episode to think about the dynamics between these people. Where is their actual trust? Where is the trust sort of necessary in force but not authentic? And how lasting is it in either circumstance? Right. So to see Reneera kind of, I think, authentically come to. open up and reveal things to Orwell.

Like, to say, the high symptom won't anoint me is to reveal something that makes Renira vulnerable to somebody that could, in theory, take that information to wield it against her, right? So that shows a genuine, not just maybe ability to trust Orwell, specifically, perhaps a part because Masaria was like,

I think this guy's okay. And we know how much stock Renera puts into what Masaria says, but because of the need to have people around her to rely on. Yeah, saying last week, like, useless. She also needs a type of advisor. When you look at the advisors that she seems to kind of jive with, it's, how can I put this?

It's Alan, it's Messeria, it's people that, like, she finds their worth for herself. Not the people that she is told should really matter to her. Sure. Corlis, Damon. Those people give her advice based on tradition, based on structure. Right. Based on, honestly, like masculinity a lot of times,

it's like being hyper, hyper, go, go, go kill, kill, kill, this is the way you got to be. And when she actually has a moment with someone and she goes, oh, you care about what I'm going through, you respect what I'm going through, and you have something actually to add, she then forms a bond with those people. And I think that's kind of what's happening

with the three members of the council that we're talking about right now. I like that she has Torrin Mandurley on the council Because even though he's like kind of there for comic relief to a certain extent, it seems like the fact that she met him at the rap banquet. Yeah. And he like called her out. Yeah. And she's like, I want that voice on my counsel.

And like we gave Vernier, I think rightly so, a lot of shit for like the way in which she made some poor choices in her management style last week and stuff like that. But just sort of like looking at who she's choosing to surround herself, I actually think she's making good. I'm worried about Masaria, but I think she's making good choice. choices. You worry about Osaria, how? Just like her influence over Rainira and what her ultimate agenda is. I mean, even appointing Tori Anderly as Master of Coins, that happened

because Masario was like, let's get escape going in here. We need someone to blame. The fact that Masaria sniffs out that Damon is full of shit with the fake sheepsteal a rider head, for us with the history between those characters, very exciting. Worrying, I think, to think about Masaria, now Mistress of Whisper's

Little Birds, actually finding out the truth or whatever she's going to do. This is a character who's said multiple times now to Reneira some version of, you sure you can trust? Allison, Damon. There's not a chance that Miseria's not going to try to prove. Also, she's to Reneira. Monitoring all of the Ravens in and out of the castle.

Laura Wile has to share that information with her now. So whether it's like actual proof is retrieved or just planting the seed to show some sort of distrust, we talked a lot last week about like mounting paranoia for Reneer. The fact that the chief advisors are not aligned and are not only not aligned but determined to best and trump each other is the risk of that stoking Renera's sense of like, I don't know who I can rely on at all.

The paranoia is very, very real. You couple that with one of her dragon seeds, Ulf, saying, I thought this was shocking. I mean, it was hysterical that he came in and asked for the... Was he drunk when he said this? Probably. I think it would be possible. Because he had a pair of balls on him.

Some of your misguided subjects who mistakenly believed their queen to be unkind. She could have cut off his head right there. But she needs him. But he also was like... She needs his head and his belly intact. It's a moment where he realized like how important he was. It was also a moment real quick where he was like,

hey man, you fucking with me. I'm going to fuck with you back a little bit. Hey, just let you know the guys that I drink with that I'm asking for a little bit of extra pour, a little deeper pour of the mead for. them, these are the people that's out there saying you ain't shit. Yeah, exactly. And they say this all the time. And the way she chose to deal

with it was interesting, too. Her development as a monarch, the way she chose to deal with it was with the heaviness of her thumb. Yeah. Erase it and find out who's doing it. Not I need to be better or... And she doesn't have an eye on it because when we watch her gold cloaks in the street and when

we watch Ormond's men in the streets of Tumbledin, there's no difference between the way in which they're abusing the people on both Team Green, Team Black, And here we are once again. It's a civil war. And the small folk are the ones who suffer. That has been an episode of Talked Thrones.

We'll be back. You can hear more from Van on The Midnight Boys. Poo-Pewoo! We'll be back with a deep dive on House of R. Thank you so much, the whole team that is here. Thank you to Chris Ryan and absentia. Oh, man. And we'll be back with Chris.

But thank you so much, Van, for filling in a lot of great. What an absolute pleasure and thrill. Stop it. It was fun. We'll be back after next week's episode, immediately here on Talk of Thrones. soon. Bye.