House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 22, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the fifth episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, "Unbowed and Unbent." They discuss Aemond’s Harrenhal dreams, Alicent’s escape attempts, Criston and Gwayne’s muddy campaign, and more! (00:00) Intro (03:53) Opening Snapshot (19:57) Criston and Gwayne (42:28) Ormund and Daeron (01:07:32) Aemond and Alys (01:30:46) Aegon and Larys (01:41:56) Alicent, Helaena, and Mysaria (01:59:40) The black council (02:06:57) Daemon and Rhaenyra (02:25:58) Book spoilers! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott Lee Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, her founding stones were watered with the blood of men and she's always thirsty. It's Joanna Robinson. Wow. Likening me to a haunted castle.

What could be a higher compliment, honestly? I quite agree. I quite agree. Joe, we are here, of course, to dive deep all the way down into the fifth episode somehow already of the third season of how House of the Dragon. We're going to get to it right after this. Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run. Then Dale tried to console us with the quote, winning isn't everything.

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Product availability varies by restaurant. Programming reminders. Talk the Thrones. Right after the new episode of House of the Dragon, Sunday night with CR. That'll be on episode six, which is bat-ship bonkers. This is only an eight-episode season. I don't know how that happened already, but alas, that's the case.

And then... Comic-Con. It's actually Comic-Con's before Talk to Thrones. It is. We're recording Talk to Thrones before that, Like, Comic-Con is before you'll watch Talk to Thrones. It's great. I'm excited.

We're going to San Diego. Yes. As you've mentioned, one million times, we're doing a meetup on Thursday evening at Whiskey Girl. No badge required. And then there's a panel where you do need a badge on Saturday morning. That's right. And we'll just be out and about and around in San Diego and taking in panels and drool it over cosplay and enjoying the brisk sea breeze air. Yeah, it seems like it's going to be a bazillion degrees.

Cool. So that's exciting. for everyone. Come hang with us as we are drenched in sweat. All of the details, times if you're like, wait, where was that? When? On the social channels, on the social handles, speaking of which, follow along. Why not? Follow this podcast, House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify, incredible stuff. And, and you can also watch those episodes on the Ringervverse YouTube channel. So follow along there. Joanna, where can the folks follow us on social? Oh my gosh. At House of R.

on TikTok, on Instagram. We're gathering up to cover the new Spider-Man movie. We're really, really excited about that. You can email us your Spider-Man thoughts, or Comic-Con thoughts, certainly your House of the Dragon thoughts, hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Delightful. Spoiler warning for today, it's the same as always.

Everything that happened in this episode of House of the Dragon, we're going to talk about it. If it's ever happened in a Game of Thrones episode of television, in this show, Game of Thrones proper, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, it could come up today. In terms of book information, we'll have a little dabbling of context as we go today, but anything that is in the future in the text, anything from the future of fire and blood, we're going to save that for a quick book spoiler section at the end of the pod, and you will have a warning before that section begins if you don't want to hear it.

What about a song of ice and fire? Everything a song of ice and fire is on the table, right? Always. Okay. Always. Technically in the future of these characters' lives, but in the past. past of our coverage. We only limit our future of to fire and blood. There's a little, we'll talk about it, but there's just like a lot of Feast for Crows and Dance Dragon's

stuff in the water here. And, you know, that's stuff that hasn't necessarily been adapted into the TV show. So it's kind of interesting what they're mining here. One of the first things we texted each other about about this episode was, my goodness, the restraint to do Feast for traders and not Feast for Crows. Wink, wink, wink, nod. Adverable. I wouldn't have had the willpower. I know that much. That's the spoiler warning.

Those are the Comic-Con details. That's the intro. So let's get to the opening snapshot. All right. Quick facts. Episode 5, unbowed and unbent. This episode took its name from the Ormond and Darren scene that we love so much. So that's a fun little nugget there.

64 minutes. You know, we haven't had a short episode yet this season. I wonder if we'll have some really long ones waiting at the end of the season. Who can say for sure? Written by Philippa Gosslet. This is the first episode that Philippa has written, but listed as the co-writer for the impending episode seven. Similarly, Nina Lopez Corrado directed this episode, first episode of Hot D that Nina has directed, but also directing the impending episode seven.

So there's another kind of teeming of directing and writing across episodes, which we covered a lot in the beginning of the season. So that's fun. For anyone who did not watch Talk the Thrones, and if you didn't, what do you do and go check it out? We had a blast. Yeah. We had a blast. Set the table.

Just a little quick opening snapshot taste here. How did you enjoy season three, episode five? I really enjoyed it. Really quickly on the director front, I want to say that, you know, we were sort of like, Claire Kilner, she's amazing. Why isn't she directing every episode? Maybe she doesn't want to direct the battle episodes or something like that. After watching the BTS for this episode and watching Nina,

and the entire crew trudge their way through a bog. I was like, if I'm Claire Kildner, I'm like, guess what I'm not doing? The Bog episode. Have fun. This episode has everything. Cats. That's right. Which stuff?

A Lost reference. A Friday Night's reference. Like, what more could I ask for? Howevskis. What is a spooky closed-off tunnel, if not a crevice, persevering? Which, you know? You abhor. web horror crevice of any sort, especially a crevice persevering.

Big crevice energy at the end of the episode, which I, and a bog is sort of like a mucky crevice of a kind, so I'm just, I'm out on it. Certainly. If it sucks you in. It can go into your crevices for sure. Barely DeGragons in this episode. We get a little C-Smokin, Moody Answer, action in the background. We get a lot of Vagar talk.

We got a nice footprint that Kristen crouches in. I want to talk about there's almost like this like, there's almost like dragon synectady, like almost like the pieces of the dragon, we get an eye of a dragon, we get a footpin of the dragon, we get this game piece of a dragon. And so like, and especially for team green and the dragon scale that Aegon uses, right? So it's like these sort of like little pieces, little remnants of dragon for team green. Team black, they're like, oh, we just got two parked back here in the back of our shot while we're having a conversation. Yeah. I also think that like watching all these members of, thinking about Team Green, the members of the

court, Kristen Cole, Laris, Thailand, et cetera, et cetera, Eam and Egan. Out in the wilderness, Gwain, certainly, a creature of the court, sort of pretty bowed, pretty bent, pretty broken, pretty muddy, pretty, you know, like Kristen Cole ditches, his armor and his beautiful hand of the king necklace and all of that. So like just watching these courtly creatures unravel as, as they're trying to make their way through the wilderness. And like, also this like thing we loved in Thrones, which we talk about plenty. We talked about plenty when we were covering United of the Seven Kingdoms, but like these unlikely duos out on the road.

So like it got hilarious who've been tracking. But like I think it just like continued like adding Thailand into the mix is really exciting. Considering like the Amund Alice combination, you know, just like who are these, you know, Adam and Beala out on the road this week? What dynamic is cropping up there? So like that's just, you know, feeds into what I was talking about a lot on Talk of Thrones,

which is just like how original thronesy this all feels. The number of like house names that were invoked in this episode, we got a salt wife mention. I mean, the little Thrones word cloud peppering across the entire episode

felt really undeniable and certainly deliberate. I love the, what you're identifying about the cloaking or shedding or grasping for those aspects of identity. You know,

it feels very purposeful where a character like Kristen who is going to declare very boldly. We'll discuss whether we have like complete buy-in to what he's saying, but he's saying, I have shed myself. It's the greatest warrior. At last. And there will be songs of these oaths, right? Whereas the characters, you know, holding sunfires, scale, etc., the pieces of the dragon trying to like reclaim aspects of identity desperately searching for a toehold or a foothold to say this is who I am and I'm strong again and people need to

respect. You can call me your grace. right. The dagger of prophecy. Killer and God impression. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm missing.

The bangle face might work for both of us, honestly. It's been a week. It's been a week and it's Tuesday. Dyer. And yeah, I think, you know, we both and Chris really had a lot of fun on Talk to Thrones talking about those duos and also the trios, but like the aspects of sub subbing and swapping, you know, you have like you're saying a new duo to really enjoy. in Amand and Alice,

but we have such an interesting comp then with Alice and Damon, which is fun because Amand and Damon, as we've talked about since a minute one, we're go of the show, our characters who we are dark mirrors of each other, right? We're comparing them all the time. George made it really subtle. He's super subtle.

Take the D. And put it at the end. Crazy. No, you know. Also I can't dance adult content. They know that going in. I was just waiting for it. you to finish that phrasing.

And what is a parallel experience across character sets, even when those characters think they're in opposition to each other, the way that Eamon and Egon are talking about each other, which character is going to be able to push through and find some accountability? Strong in that respect. We typically go, this is much like episode four, like a little bit more of a traditional, less built around one monumental moment and set piece,

we're moving through character sets. We're going back and forth to the same grouping three, four times in an episode, right? A lot of conversations. Seven times. One of them to go back to you with seven separate times. Either in elegant rooms or net infested bugs, whichever the case may be. And so typically we go chronologically through the episode, but this time we're actually going to cluster by character set because it just feels like the only way to do it today.

I got to say, the cats in the episode, a thrill and a joy and a delight. Alan's ideas put into action immediately. But we would be remiss if we did not mention the work that the House of the Dragon and HBO social teams are doing on the cat content front. I mean, just in general, it's been out of control this season. It's so good. And like the amount of work they did in advance on set, like getting people to do like really fun reaction memes to the episode while they were in costume on set is like incredible forethought. Like I just really appreciate the work they've done. But yes, there's cat cam.

content. It's just great. I sent it to a friend of mine, I mean, I sent it to you. One of my dearest, fondest friends. But I sent it to a friend of mine who loves all cat content. And she doesn't watch the show. And she's like, um, I'm in. And she's like, uh, not even this cat content can get me to watch the show because I don't trust the show not to kill those cats. And I was like, I can't argue against that, but I hope it'll be okay. It's always a concern on that front. No question. Can I hit you with this, uh, text my pal Sam sent about sort of at books four and five of a song of ice and fire and their sort of influence on this season.

He wrote, he texted me, I think I already texted you about how the Rainier stuff feels very Searcy in A Feast for Crows, coded. And so if people don't, haven't read that book, that sort of like dissension into paranoia inside of Searcy's mind is a huge part of that book that's less, I would say, a part of the show. Cole, soulful, all might be lost.

March the Riverlands is very Jamie codes. voted. Agon and Laris on the run feels very Tyrion and a dance with dragons aboard the shy maid. Feels like Amon has some urine potential if given the requisite dose of wherewood paste. Obviously, Ormond is given off some Ramsey by way of the seven fanaticism fumes. But the dynamic they've set up with Darren is pure John Con Young Griff stuff, which you've tracked Fagon. We'll continue to track this. So, like, this is going to come up, but I just think it's, I think it's really fascinating. If, in the fan fiction of my mind, a prompt that the writer's for this show set for themselves is like how can we make season three feel thrones year?

And if an answer they, given the bare bones source material we're working with in fire and blood. And if an answer they came up with was, what about all the stuff in a Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons, which was not adapted? And how can we mine that sort of stuff? So even stuff like the Savas game that shows up in this episode is a Dance with Dragon stuff. You know, so I just think that's a, that's a really. possibility of just a rewarding thing for book readers who were disappointed, you know, are we going to get, I don't know, Aria Martel? Like, like, what sort of like abandoned plot lines

could inspire future things on this show? It'd be really exciting. It's fun. I mean, you know, I've basically freaked out being able to call fake Daron, Farron, because of the Fagon Young Griff thing. And you supported me as you do. And Chris was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And that's our journey and shared experience together and Talk to Thrones. And we have a great time, folks. I'm into it. Obviously, there's so much there to mind. I think it is an interesting choice given the relationship that George R. Martin has to how this television show is adapting his work. Well, I almost see. But it's obviously not a literal adaptation. It's more taking elements from the world and like centering them. Maybe he'll feel honored. I almost see just like, see George, we are making a show that is very

much in your world, sir. I lot of. One of the thing I wanted to respond to something we got pushed back, or I would say more, I got pushed back on last week was my astonishment over the way that Alan was just sort of like appointed to the small council by his dad.

And a bunch of people wrote in saying, like, isn't this what Taiwan did with Tyrion? And I would say, no, because the king in that instance is a child, Joffrey, you know, and Tywin is like head of that family, which is not Corliss's position inside of this power structure. Tyrion is the uncle of the king, brother of the queen regent, and a creature of the court and a canny strategist. Alan, Lord love him, has great ideas about cats, but he's a sailor.

Also, all those things are true when Tyrion sits down, there's a lot of like, what are you doing? Yeah, what the fuck? from Searcy because of... Absolutely. Absolutely what the fuck. But yes, like, did a hand of a king, in Crow's Hand of the Queen, but a Hand of the King in a previous Thrones show just put their son on the small council? Yes. But the circumstances, I think, are wildly different.

I would also say that the point was less about our Nepo baby's abundant in Westeros, which, of course, they are all the time. That's, like, kind of the whole thing. Yeah. Right? Legacy. our house. Dentistry. We're obsessed.

Dynasty. But more of the fact that everybody accepted immediately that the internship was afoot. Oh, this is fine. That was more

the way it was. Not that Corlis tried to do it, honestly. No, and not that like I think Alan will be terrible at it. Like,

obviously, again, I'm thriving already. The cat's plan. It's great. He's like, we're going to start rebuilding the fleet. Yeah.

Focused. Attention to the matters of the realm. Is he doing like master of shipwork then? You know what I mean? Listen, let's just say this. A lot of the other

members of the council are spending all of their time trying to take down each other or gossiping in clear earshot of everybody else. But gossip is important work. I would happily watch a 24-hour live stream. You know when there's like a bird about to be born, some rare bird, and they put the little camera on it. You can just watch in case a little beak pokes through the shell. I do know what you're talking about. I would tap into a version of that for Toran Mandurley and Sabbath's a threat fray explaining the matters of the court to each other. Oh, the white world. You know it a little of my Vsaris's milting and dying voice for Tora, but it was a very breathy whisper that carried across her. Oh, the ho.

Great stuff. Just great stuff. You know how my tradition for our work slack is that my work slack photo is like... Simon Strong. Well, it was Simon Strong before that. It was Lyme and Beesbury. I picked like an old fun guy. Yeah.

Toron Mandarly. I mean, Dan Fogler's not that much older than I am, but like, you know, just like that kind of energy. Yeah. That kind of line with Biesbury, Simon Strong. I think it's time to make Torin materly my black image. That would be more appropriate than him making it on to the opening credits tapestry of history. I would say he being on the tapestry of history was more appropriate than Sabbath of Frey being there a week early. A shocking bit of clarity that we now have after seeing, you know, the head drive.

That's clearly what that is, right? And so now the new shot that we get this. Yeah, the whispering. The new element we get this week. Are we supposed to assume that every week there's just some minor tease of something yet to come that is not relevant in the great flow of history? That's a real change for how that opening tapestry is used. Yeah, it felt like this week Corlis is sort of like unraveling because he is left. I feel like they're not really adhering closely to like this week on sort of ideas.

I think that there should be a higher bar for who makes the tapestry of history, even if it is temporary. I don't know because. Even if we're doing the Penelope and we're stitching it and then we're taking it out. Sabbath the fray and Torin Manorley are members of the small council of... But they're gone. They're not even there anymore. They're not in the tapestry anymore. They were there for a second.

They're there. They're just in a different corner of the tapestry. We're like moving around the tapestry. Anyway, weekly barred corner really quickly. Our guy Aidan wrote in two quotes from King Lear for tonight, Aiden wrote. In honor of Amin and Agan ranting about how much easier the other had it and Kristen's critique of the West Roecey Class system, quote, wherefore base, when my dimensions are as well compact, my mind is generous and my shape as true as honest madam's issue. There's a lot of bastard bitterness in king wear.

And then in honor of Damon's enhanced interrogation techniques, quote, out vile jelly. Amazing. Really pulled that eye out with a quickness. Yeah, yeah. A little slurp pop sort of situation. Some incredible, this is how we did the prosthetics of the gouged eyes and the slit eyes and also all of the entrails on the table stuff on House the Dragons built. Once again, if you're not watching, treat yourself. It is a real testament to the craft and particularly disgusting this week. I thought that really enjoyed it. The footage of Matt Smith sort of blocking in his entrance and he's like,

what ho? That's a lot of blood. Tough at the top, eh, lads. Top of the top. Killed me. Killed me. Really good. Great stuff.

I watched the BTS very close to. this week so it didn't make another CGI bunny mistake. Listen. You know? You know? It's, uh... Sometimes you need to be told to pay better attention. And the CGI bunny was that moment.

That's my Rubicon. I crossed it. Incredible. Shall we head to the balance of a pleasure dam? Shall we head to the deep dive? Do it. Okay. We're starting Team Green today.

And we're starting inside of Team Green with Chris Ryan's favorite characters. Chris and Cole and Gawain High Tower. Chaos at the river camp, Joe, the river lords have redirected toward Tumpleton as instructed. They're encamped. And they're lamenting the delays that Kristen Cole's tactics have caused them. Stony Sept, it's going to be the last chance to ford the river with an army this large. They have 40,000 rivermen, right? Minus, a few who were left behind to Garrison Harrenhall and then burned to a crisp.

It happens. The people who burn in this episode. Very tough. Man, those tents, they really, they can. catch fire quickly. They do. They do. They catch fire quickly. I feel like wax canvas would take a little longer to burn, but maybe they're not waxing canvas in, uh, in Westeros. Interesting. Not like the wax truckers and Last of Us. It always comes back to Joel's jacket. I guess so. I just, I've been in like period appropriate tents and usually those are like wax canvasy. That was like a really sick.

flex that you dropped pretty subtly. I've been in period-appropriate tense. Listen, I haven't, but I wish I had. Wish I could say such a thing. Wonderful. We can make that part of your future. Riverlands Town, Stony SEP, southwest of the gods' eye by the Blackwater Rush as we continue to kind of just track the map.

A lot of where are people in the general Riverlands vicinity action in this episode? Duncan Egg passed through. Stony Sapt at a certain point. Bobby B. yield there during his rebellion. Fun little mention on the like, oh, a throne thing. front. Delightful. Listen, Oscar Tully, Roddy the Ruin. You don't agree on ideal weather, Joe, but they do agree that Chris and Cole is a pest. Here's what I think is interesting about sort of the Riverland, this army, this team black army. They're like, they had very little time one statement

left to leave us with characters who we would like sort of recognize and understand who they are and where they are. Chris Ryan, not so much, but like most of us hopefully. But they're like, young boy, old man. And if you're feeling, really sassy, black alleys here, a lady, a lady warrior. So there's sort of like, every time we cut back to the old man and the young boy, you know where you are, it is the Riverland Army. How do you feel like, have they done enough about, like, around these characters to make you feel invested in this group?

I think we spent a good amount of time with Oscar Tully in season two, certainly. It was interesting to bring back Lord Peter Piper here to have Kristen Cole slit his throat and then stab him so many times in the rib cage. George R. Martin named him Peter Piper. Incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. Not spelled how you think. Never is.

He was one of the lords in this region who was really not viving with Damon in season two. I don't know how many people watching this season two years later are going to be like, oh, Peter Piper's back and now I mourn his loss. I don't know if that has, like, frankly, any impact on people. I don't think you need to care about Peter Piper other than the fact that. Roddy and Oscar. Okay. We're so in the bag for Roddy as book readers that it's hard to separate our pre-existing attachment to him.

My hope would be that show watchers who weren't anticipating Roddy's arrival got a couple glimpses earlier. We're like, this guy seems like he fucking rocks. And then as he is sitting there saying that Kristen's past enduring, comparing him to the fucking deer flies. And what a blow for Kristen. He's like trying to mount this legendary stand. And they're comparing him to pests that you swat away and try to zap. Very tough. But the fact that Roddy's like, you know, sharpening his acts as he talks, just little stuff that helps to make him feel really cool.

He does seem like he's like a sick sort of archetype. I just don't know that he feels like a character. We know literally nothing about him inside of the show yet other than that he is a winter wolf who has come to die. Do it. Do it in the voice. He's come to die for the dragon queen. Yeah. And you know what?

That's all you need. It's all we need. On the Oscar front, I'm like, you know, I've been like, where's Bloody Ben? Yeah. I thought it was cool to see Oscar who was very much like, my grandfather, my grandsiret, my grandsire. And then two years later, the voices are up a bit. Exactly. And I was like, let's go.

What if we tried some of Kristen's tactics on him and is ready to attempt some guerrilla warfare on his own? Do I miss Bloody Ben? Sure. Do we need Kermit? I don't know. I'm like, Oscar, for me at this point, can stand in for the lads. And I'm okay with it. Standing for the lads, Fabian Frankel on an apple box.

This was incredible. The old John Snow. Yeah. In the behind the scenes, Fabian Frankel had to stand on an apple box in order to reach the actor who plays Peter Piper to slit his throat. Yes. I do really respect that Fabian went out of his way to be like, I'm 511. I'm not like 5-2 when I needed to stand on this. He's like, this guy's really tall.

But this was not very rock and roll. Very funny. I don't know that he's 5-11, but that's okay. I see. I see. Do you think that good old Fab's has. has been listening to the bands play an episode that I did with Yossi on the Derry Dancing soundtrack, and that's why he was singing in Time of Your Life on the, on the BTS.

It seems likely that he would involve time travel through time. Yeah, it would involve time travel. To listen to that episode and reference it and feel inspired by it, specifically when he recorded that behind the scenes. Yeah. Somewhere between 8 to 10 months ago. I think that's in bounce. That's in play. Yeah.

Speaking of time. Yeah. It's Caltrop o'clock. TikTok. Joe, riding. Courts Donny Sept and Gawain asked Kristen before their army is decimated by the crow's feet on the ground. My guy, my friend, have you ever seen the High Tower in Old Town? And he shares the story of playing around the tower with Ormond.

Calls him a thin-skinned twat, which is hysterical but also pays off immediately as we see Ormond quiver and have to work so hard to contain his rage when Darren beats him. Do you know what this reminds me of? Tell me. Have you ever seen it, Eragore in the White Tower of the Selleon glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver. Yeah. Have you been called home by the clear ringing the silver trumpets? There's a good amount of Lord of the Rings in this episode. Yeah.

The idea of like run the tower, this game that Gwain and Orman used to play. And like watching, you know, you talk about watching the sunrise. I was just thinking about like from the high tower. Yep. It's very sort of like British Empire. The Sun never sets on the view from the high tower sort of. Also, do you think that's where Ormond got his taste for, like, pure, clean air? This is just like at the top of the high tower.

Smells great up there. Can't smell anything. Maybe. Smells crisp and cool. Entirely possible. It's always interesting even when the person on the other end of a conversation like this is a royal is the air. Like, it reminded me a little bit of Jason Lanister talking to Renera back in season one in the hunt about like, oh, the view from Castorlie Rock, you know, the reach, the western. And it's like, it probably is way nicer out there, right?

Yeah. But you're always like, eh, the superiority. I was, it's so interesting because I was so touched by Gwain's offer, which felt. Oh. So sweet. But then you get to the service, but though, like, have you ever seen the high tower part? That's very nice, right? And then it's like, I hope to show it to you one day.

I hope to show it to. That's very sweet. And then he's like, you know, you can be in service to my house. While you're polishing with the record scratch. Real record scratch there. It is interesting that Gawain framed it around the idea of home. you know, you can make a home, given what Kristen said last episode, there is no home for one like me. Not while we're near us. It's the throne. We'll come back to this offer in Kristen's response to it later.

But let's talk about the caltrops, Joe. Let's talk about what takes down the horses. They call them crow's feet, right? Yeah. I know a thing or two about crow's feet. Yeah, caltrops. This is the sigil of House Footley. And there is an inn in Tumbledon called the Bloody Caltrops. Sick branding. And this will be of note later. Uh-huh.

Great stuff. But it does feel like a little thing for the book readers. I agree. So the Rivermen have gotten ahead. They're using the guerrilla tactics. And it's like so much, Kristen, for being the scorpion on the axe, even a wraith in the shadow. You've still been bested. It must be.

exhausting to always feel like you're losing if you're Kristen. Sucks to suck, Kristen Cole. Boy, Gawain, frankly, like us, just wants a nice cup of tea and a warm bath. We love Freddie Fox. We were so excited when he was cast in this role. I think he's been great the whole time and very limited screen time. This was my favorite Freddy Fox episode yet, not only because the conversations between Gwynne and Kristen were wonderful as they consistently have been. But Gawain's misery abjected misery.

All his beleaguered faces that he made. The sniffles? Yeah. The wrapping the little blankie towel around him was my favorite detail. So good. When they get to the river crossing and the rivermen had been there and burned the bridge and left a team black banner to be like, fuck you. They flexed on them.

I really did. Freddie Fox's face as he comes up to the, like, the crest of the hill. like behind Kristen Cole and he's just like he's just like a sad face emoji with the sad crusty remains of his like fun Boys will be boys like war paint that they painted on each other. I know. Do you think that is what Carlos and Scott and Jacob would they look like every time one of us slacks them and we're like, what if we push 15 more minutes? It's when we hit the like three hour mark, you know.

At least they can go to the bathroom. That's true. Must be nice. Here's what our listener Uday said about sort of this bog slog, right? What makes George R. Martin's, quote, broken man archetype so effective is his experience coming of age and the aftermath of the Vietnam War. George is a very active in the anti-war movement. I think about Aria going through a burnt and scarred Riverlands and the napalm-esque wildfire on the blackwater. This theme is all over a fuse for crows and the sworn sword. A realm-pigated, up the pieces after war and broken men returning home.

I love this. One of my favorite little bits of connective tissue in this episode to that idea is the choice to name Wendishtown, the village by Wendishtown, because that's... Just outside of Wendish Town. Just outside of Wendishtown. That when Ned is sitting on the throne hearing petitions and learns that the men's... mountain has ravaged this village and then sends, he is, I attained him and sends Barrick out, it's Windishtown. So this place that we associate with not only a level of like ferocity and violence that there's something undeniable about the fact that the violence of war can never be

contained, right, which is to the point of email one of George's areas of examination and missions, but then the way that our central characters were. respond to that. We're in this general part of the map, right? So it just makes sense as a choice. But it also felt like a little bit of a... Gregor, Vagar, ravaging the Riverlands. What's the difference?

I mean, what a question. It's a great question. Oh, boy. I liked two on the connective tissue and parallels across different aspects of the episode and character sets. It's the way that Gwain, when they're working through the brush and the, you know, the thorns, right? And the, oh, we've got to try to cut through. We're off the road.

They knew we in Christensen's like, they knew we would be. This is what we'd have to deal with. And Gwain is speaking about this is another sign, right? A sign that we have made the wrong choice. So which characters are talking about are seeing some sort of omen and then which characters are taking a more practical. Is this a sign or is it a portent? What would you say? Or is it important?

or a sign. Ah, intriguing. Something I think about. Kristen's unwilling to give up, Joe. Yeah. That remains true as he ends up kneeling in the dragon paw print. This is a fun, it's always fun when you see a certain shot in every single teaser, trailer piece of marketing. And then you're like, ah!

There it is. Dragon paw. There you go, once again. Sweet, cute, cuddly mega. Let's see those tofies. That's toe beats. Vagar. Oh my God. Great stuff. Some see a horny old bitch and some say, would you like a churro? Vagar thinks people are churros, you know what I mean? Yeah. Even I have never, I think, tried to say that about vagar. Even I have limits.

That might be the only one. Great shot of Kristen there. You know, this thing that sparked this existential crisis for him. What place does a man having a dragon war and sent him down this nihilistic journey? the leeches affixing to their persons. Gwain pulling one off the thigh. Great stuff. Can I follow up on that comment you made? Please. We got a really interesting email I thought from our listener, Finn,

who says, this is sort of jumping the gun on the speech we're about to talk about. But Finn said, early on the season, my friend felt worried that Kristen Cole's PTSD arc was making him feel like sympathy for a crappy guy. I responded saying that I believed his nihilism is nearly a devastation that dragons make him not the main character. Yeah. And it comes from an elevated opinion of self and ego. This week's insanely well-written, dripping in hypocrisy speech about being the greatest fighter in the realm confirms this to me. Thus, I petition the removal of PTSD from Kristen in exchange for self-interested egotistical nihilism. You know what?

That's what's pretty well with me. I might be back on my Kristen Cole hater trade, honestly. I'm excited to get, though, where are we on Kristen in terms of our sympathy for him or ability to, like, feel for him front after what we see. in this episode. I mean, it's a complicated, Quaid cries for him. You know, one single high tower tear. Through the fucking

filth. Madden on his face. Is he crying for Kristen or is he crying for all the ins that he didn't get to stay in along the road because he was with this guy. All the fed of beds and baths that he's missed. Oh man. Under that little blankie

that Gawain is huddled under filthy trying to get warm as he sniffles. Again. Couldn't be us. Try to convince Kristen the time has come at last. It's over. Lay down your sword. It's over and again. Put up your sword, as I would say in rings of power.

Put up your sword. Is Galadriol here? So soon. Galadry will be here at Comic-Connor. There are 200 rivermen for every one of them. That's the math that Gawain updates us on. The odds, Joanna, don't phase Kristen, because his place. plan, as Gawain knows, because Kristen said it pretty clearly in the season two finale, is to die would be kind of a relief, don't you think?

Gawain is aghast at this, right? He says, I offered you sanctuary. I said you could shine my boots at the high tower. You'd get to do everything I asked you. You could fluff my feather bed. You could draw my baths for me. But you'd have a great view. And a beautiful, robust thriving metropos. that you would rarely have time to enjoy. It would smell very nice. It would be permission to enjoy. You have offered me service to your house. Kristen said.

This is one of my favorite pieces of performance from Fabian here, the way he said that you have offered me service to your house. I am grateful, but I have been a servant all my life. He says he's through defining himself by his oaths. Let's hear this, Carlos. I am the realm's greatest warrior, and I will die as such. Clear-eyed. unbent, glorious in battle, and not in their service.

Finally, but in my own, and they will sing songs of it. And Queen Allison herself will hear them. Joanna, where are you on our guy, Chrissy Cole, after this decision and this declaration? If it were just his own life that he was taken into his hands, I could be like, okay, you were a shitty dude who did some shitty things and you decided to die now. Okay. But he's leading all of his men into certain death without, I think, full, their full consent and that I cannot back. Yeah. So I'm out. Back out. Back out. On the kingmaker. Back out. Yeah. Yeah. I, this is good. I'm in a place I enjoy being with this character, which is like feeling a little bit of a poll that I still can't believe the show has made me feel. Really, too. It's. credit. When Kristen is saying you've offered me service to your house and saying, I'm going to I've defined myself by these oaths. I'm going to shed them. There's something about it still,

despite what you said and what I'll agree with you and say next, where I feel like a little tug, there's something heartbreaking about it, there's something about the character on an arc aspect of Kristen, being able to identify that at all that intrigues me. No more service. shedding himself of the need to define himself by the service to others in those oath. But, right? And the but part of this, I think, carries the bulk of the weight at the end. It's interesting. The Dornish theme, you know, because he says unbent, you know, so he's invoking his Dornish heritage. We got a really great email about this, which I will read sort of when we get to the Dornish section of the Ormond Daron stuff. But, like, this idea of Kristen Cole as this, like, you know, he gets accused of being this.

upjumped sort of like climber kind of guy, sure. But we believe in upper mobility. Like, we believe that, that, you know, a guy from House Cole should be able to climb up the ranks and do all these things. But the thing about Kristen Cole, which has always bothered me, is he just, like, closes the door behind him. And he's like, a woman shouldn't rule. Yeah. These kids are bastards. You know, so he's not like equality for all. You know, he's like, advancement for me or like, I feel injured by the hand that I was dealt in. life, but I refuse to re-deal the hand of anyone else. Yeah, and that's the thing ultimately. Like, I think that he is, it is possible for Kristen and for all people to, and frankly,

so much of this episode is about which characters are able to, like, look at their own decisions and then take some accountability for it. There's a version of this where Kristen has made some sort of sincere progress and gone through some sort of sincere reckoning with his past, but it doesn't feel like, he, I do think Kristen, yeah, advancement, great. he's a striver and always has been and that that advancement, those oaths he made the oaths that he defined himself by,

were ones that he sought. It's very much to me, Alison Renera, yes, but you alone made virtue your banner coded from their conversation at the end of season two. It's like, Kristen did that too. He alone made virtue his banner,

the fact that his entire speech to the troops at the end is about the seven is pulling us right back into that undeniable aspect. Also, he's still doing it for, he is still doing it for Allison. He says it. Well, no, not just Allison, but his own glory. They will sing songs about it. And that is the ultimate.

I agree with what you said about if it were just him versus. And I think there are obviously inside of a war story, there's a noble sacrifice even in a lost, a hopeless circumstance. That is not what this is. It is Kristen pursuing his own legacy and his own glory at all costs. If he listened to Gwain and they went that away, rather than burn, you know, and fuck with the troops, go that away and get to Tobleton. Trying to keep the fight going.

He doesn't have any interest. Yeah, it's interesting. Also, who cloaks themselves in the light of the seven, you know, inside of this episode when Reneura is here in the Sept sort of play acting for for appearances and you've got who are the people, it's like Ormond, who we've already called out for his hypocrisy in terms of invoking the seven and the faith and all of that. Kristen Cole and his, you know, naming of the seven in his speech.

Even Allison's like the choice to use of necklace. I was literally about to say that. Exactly so. Allison just trading the necklace away. I mean, like, I understand what she's doing. But like, yeah, these fucking high towers, these team greenies. Yeah. And they're bullshit faith.

like to think that Allison's internal monologue there is, well, where did that cloak of righteousness get me? Maybe now it can get me somewhere. Maybe now he's having two made outfits. As Kristen is making his big speech at the end, Gawain right in the middle is like, peace out, man.

Could have left at the beginning, could have left after, but leaves right in the middle. Extra brutal. And he is Tumbledon bound. So we will go to Tumbledon, two, to check in on our pals. Ormond. Your bestie, orman. He's certainly one of the characters. So I am having the most fun watching, even though he is a complete piece of garbage, morally reprehensible.

So Ormond's long reach is something we really get to understand in this episode. We'll talk about the Rainier and Damon reception to this clarity later when we get to them. But in Tumbledon, we see this scroll sent out return to Ormond, right? So he is in communication with the Hightower Soldier, who we met in the second episode of the season, when Allison and Helena went up to the battlements to convince Sir Frederick. This was a really good catch of yours, I thought. Untalk the Thrones. Let me be, can I be really honest with you?

Heterocramia? Yes, but in episode two, I was like, that guy's handsome. So I really was like, really looking at his face. Oh, you're like, the Heterchromia's back. God. I really was drawn to him, so I immediately recognized him because I'm like, whoa, Hot High Tower soldier is back. What a thrill.

So do you, does this solve the mystery we were at? we were pondering last week of like why there are no scrolls from Mormon in, in the records, in Orwell's records. Is it that all of this information, he was always sending it via sneaky little back channels, just to like leave no record behind and then like whoever his men on the ground were then reporting to auto, to Otto, to Hotow High Tower, or whoever else had information? We got an email from our listener, Beth, because it wasn't sent by Raven, it was set by pigeon, which we've never seen a pigeon used as a carrier for a square, I think, in a throne show.

And Beth said perhaps the use of pigeons is a great way to more subtly send messages from a domestic dwelling, especially from what we discover later are Hormon High Tower's assassins. Folks seeing a raven fly out a flea bottom window would certainly raise the alarm that something dastardly was afoot. So we're using Mallory's favorite wild bird a pigeon. Nature. Nature. Do you think that this explains? like is this why there's no paper trail from Ormond at the Red Keep?

That's an interesting theory. Because he was always using the pigeon route. Not a corporate email guy? Just like always, you know, games within games within games. Yeah. I mean, it feels entirely plausible, makes him feel more in control. Why would he want any while or anyone to know his messages? who he doesn't have relation. He's so much of a character who's rooted in the idea of control, right? So

it feels can't have some candy strategy afoot. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's really interesting. I like that. And the idea that then like the structure that Ormond was availing himself of in some capacity because those high tower soldiers were there, right? They had to be there in order for Allison to go to them and say, lay down your arms, lever near in. And now they are still there. This is an interesting thing to think about in terms of like how prepared was Team Black to take over, but also how much risk is. Alice, not, all of it, right? They come in, Reneira rightly suggests, let's interview the staff. See who might be loyal to the Hightower's. But was there a, and let's make sure all the Hightower soldiers who put down their swords are definitely gone? Right. Like how many people who are still loyal to Team Green to Ormond are just there in hiding?

Like lying in wait, that's a terrifying prospect for the Reneera enthusiasts in the room, of which we are. This is very worrying, right? And then, you know, we care about Allison. And so it's concerning to me that this guy, hot guy knows too much. This guy knows, hot guy knows too much. Hot High Tower guy knows. He knows that she went up there and did this thing and said let Reneer in. He's in touch with Ormond.

Too hot to die, but he knows too much. Let's keep him alive. Okay. Let's keep him alive, please. I would love that. And then, yeah, Reneira talking, you know, when she found out about Tumbledon in the third episode, my arm is long. He cannot win.

And we see here, like, Orman's got the long arm. He is inside of King's Landing in a way that our characters who are seeking to rule are only beginning to see and understand. You know, we're going to talk about Dorn in a second. But I was thinking about, if we're thinking about Dorn and the way in which it might inspire via time travel, Ormond High Tower. Yeah. He would benefit from learning some things about Dorn's future, I think. Well, yes, but Prince Doren's, like, very famous speech. Yeah.

Yep. from a Feast for Crows, I believe. Prince Doran, big, big Savas guy. Oberyn was ever the viper, deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass, pleasant, complacent, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze, who fears to walk upon the grass. But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes.

So thinking about Orman as like the viper in the grass, that like inside of Tumbledon, there is this viper waiting to strike and he has shielded himself in, you know, in, you can't see him. He is hidden, but his arm is long. Listen, I think he got us with the sweet smelling part of that. Undeniable. Undeniable. Remember how cool Doran is in the book? It's something I think about.

Yeah, it's one of the all time. Oh, what could have been? So much of the Doran stuff falls into that, though. I also, we got this great email from our listener, Pat. Speaking of book stuff, there's just like a lot of great books, A Song of Ice and Fire book stuff this week. Pat wrote in to say, Ormond Hightower, clutching his pearls over the impropriety of, quote, them putting a woman on the throne, gasp, is happy to lean in on declaring the youngest son in dynastic succession as king because Darren is a Targaryan orman has on hand and is amenable to Orman's influence. This tracks with youngest brother Renly Barathean, nearly two centuries later being supported by a different Reach House to be king, because House Tyrell, feels they can gain from putting their longtime family friend Renly on the throne, rather than the downside of supporting crabby Stannis, who remembers how Mace Tyrell stole his lunch money at Storm's End.

It's great stuff. You know, the reach is very much top of mind inside of this episode. But yeah, just sort of like any king will do, you know, or the rules don't. The rules apply only when I need them to apply. Yeah. Right. How dare they put a woman on the throne, but I'll put the youngest son on the throne. Yeah.

because he's handy. And he's more High Tower cosplay than the rest of them. So isn't that an extra added bonus? I love the Tyrell mentioned here because one of the fun, you know, we're going to get to the history lessons here and a little insight. You know, Ormond's got some feedback on

Darren's syllabus, right, and what the tutors are sharing and leaving out. But before he gets to Marianne, Mariam Martel, the Yellow Toad of Dorn, listing some of the houses that Darren is studying and has been learning about house gardener is mentioned, which like, it's a fun thing to be reminded, not that we need to be reminded of how myopic and mad Ormond is

and how his idea of Hightower superiority is the driving force for him, but also completely out of whack with reality. Like, he's so focused on the obscenity, as he says in this episode, of the Targaryen dragons. It's the one thing that allowed them to best the Hightowers. Like, the gardeners ruled the reach before the conquest, and then, when house gardener was decimated, the Tyrells became Mordens, not the High Towers. So it's interesting to me, and do the High Towers remain one of the richest and most powerful houses? Yes, that's still true, even though they're not in control, right? But it's interesting that Ormond is not at all engaging with that aspect of his house's history.

Just the we were kings once, we were the superior man, and the rule should be ours. it's particularly interesting to think about when we get to some of the house marked telecoms and what the yellow toad of Dorr and what Mariah actually achieved and was trying to achieve which is resistance not conquest

exactly the comp of how oh my God I'm inspired by being able to thwart the Targaryen strength and fend off their their conquest we understand the inspiration he's taking there but Orman is not mounting a resistance that's not what he's doing he's not

Not an Andor. He just wants to be in control. Yeah. So it's great. The history lesson. Ormond finding it just absolutely shocking that this 16 year old kid is like, I'm a little bit bored. A little bit bored reading these dry histories was so good. So funny. More of the Taiwan vibes here as well with the...

I was thinking about brand. No question. No question. Were you thinking about brand with Amund and the vagar eye flash? A little bit of the brand summer. When aren't we thinking about brand? A lot. Often.

Top. Top! That's season one brand. Ormond jumps in to educate young Darren on Maria. This was thrilling, Joe. Mary Martel. Yellow Tote of Dorn. Ormond is like, there's only one woman.

There's only one woman who was gifted with a truly military mind and who I can respect. And I can only respect the one woman who fended off the targ gains for a minute. But I would like to tell you how ugly she was. Roll ago. Incredible stuff from Ormond, dear, you could not suck more. Yeah, that's good so. Bold and blind. Oh, man, great stuff.

But glint in his eye, she refused to submit. Here's a passage from fire and blood. I will not fight you, Princess Maria told Rainis. Nor will I kneel to you. Dorn has no king. Tell your brother that. I shall, Rainier replied, but we will come again, Princess. and the next time we shall come with fire and blood.

Your words, said Princess Maria, ours are unbowed, unbent, unbroken. You may burn us, my lady, but you will not bend us, break us, or make us bow. This is Dorn. You are not wanted here. Return at your peril. I have some copywriting notes for Mary.

I feel like it's a little redundant to say, ours are unbought and bent and unbroken. You will not bend us, break us, or make us bow. I'm like, yeah, that's why your words are about them that I'm broken. You already said that. So you put it on the flag. Like, I get it, you know. Incredible. Yeah, but this is like, you're the most, one of the most efficient

bloggers, ruthlessly efficient bloggers and the history of digital journalism. You would have, like, seven Thrones posts up on one Sunday night. Mariam Martel could simply never. Not like this. No. Great stuff. Oh, man. Should we hear this clip and then discuss this more?

I would love it. Carlos. Maria poisoned her own wells, hid her soldiers in the very sand of the desert. Her castle when they found it was empty. They thought that she was vanquished, but she rose up out of the darkness and slaughtered them in their beds. Is she a hero then or a villain? You really put some sauce on slaughtered? Oh.

James Norton's like, in his script he underlined it. Slotted them in their beds. I mean, I gotta say, If Darren was feeling bored with his history lesson, Ormond made it fun and exciting. I quite agree. Slaughtered them in their bed. Poisoned wells? This lady was ugly.

So what do you make of this? The morality question. Is she a hero then or a villain? The fact that Darren is asking it, the way that Ormond sees it, wonderful scene, very rich. I mean, I think this is, you know, Darren ever cautious to not trigger his uncle. but he's just sort of like, okay, you've painted me a picture of someone who you admire, but I don't know, they're doing things that I'm not sure I would ever want to do. Yeah.

Does that sound very heroic to you? And you brought this up on Talk of Thrones that, like, for a lot of the realm, Marya Martel was not considered a hero. I think they're just bitter that she outfoxed them. And she remained, say it with me, unbowed, unbowed, unbent, unbroken. They will not bow. They will not bend. Just in case you didn't get at that.

the first time. Yeah, I think that you're definitely right. Oh, my God, you were able to withstand the assault that we could not, was fueling the realms read and reception. I still like from Darren the kind of like morality check on, is this the way that, is there honor in this? Like, it's just a good way to continue to show us the difference between how Ormond and Darren see the world. It's interesting, too, even like in that not, we won't spoil the odyssey for people who haven't had the fucking pleasure of seeing it yet. But any Spoil the Odyssey. I now spoiled the 3,000-year-old story.

But, you know, it's funny because that's like a, we were talking about the Game of Thrones influence on that version, on Nolan's version of The Odyssey. And so now we're kind of back here where that's on our mind one week after seeing that watching this. The idea of like guest rights and the violation, that's such a central thing in how we think about throne stories. It's not guest rights when you're invading Dorn. But if you're Darren, if you've grown up thinking about how do you behave, what is the law of tactic? what is the norm of how you engage. It's sort of interesting. For Ormond, it's clear, right?

He's like, they're heroes because the Targaryans, the thing I have to give them. The point I must concede is that they have strength. And Maria Martel was able to challenge that strength and take, not Marya directly, but the Dornish War, which spanned years and was very costly. That cost included, as you noted on Sunday night, a dragon and a sister wife, right? Marraxies and Rainy. One. A hot one.

I mean, I'm team Vesania, as you know. Hot in a different way. But all these women are hot. They're all great. Mary Martel is hot. You know, it's hot? Not bowing, not bending, not breaking. I agree.

I agree. Mary, I could fuck for sure. Absolutely. No question. No question. So he's like, yeah. Can I see? I just always think it's funny that AGO's like, I have two sisters.

They're both my wives. One of them is much hotter than the other. I prefer one. We know this is Ormond's M.O., right? like the subterfuge, the theater, and then the truth in the shadows. Of course this is a heroine of his to channel my inner Taiwan at Harenhall

studying history of his own. The legacy in the realm, you know, the toad hops into her hole when threatened, wrote one scribe to quote fire and blood, another said Maria Foll like a woman with lies and treachery and witchery. The Dornish victory, a victory it was, was seen to be dishonorable. And the survivors of the fight, the sons and brothers of those who had fallen promise one another that a day would come and with it a reckoning.

Ormond doesn't give a shit if anybody thinks he behaves honorably, except he knows when to think about that and when it matters is somebody there listening and watching. Fascinating how he's navigating when to care about the PR and when the achievement would be worth the potential cost. Well, this is why I want to read this email from our listener, Amanda, about the use of Dorn in this episode for both Kristen and for Orman. and the way in which they're picking and choosing what aspects of the Dornish story bolsters their own self-narrative, right? So she says, we have multiple instances of characters picking and choosing the words and sections of House Martel to further their own agenda. Dorn doesn't simply dislike the Targaryens. They fight against forceful takeover. They join the Targaryens on their own terms through diplomacy.

Yes. Even after the Targaryens are driven from Westeros, House Martel continues to seek an alliance with them. Doren first plus to wed Ariane to Viseris. and after his death sends Quentin across a narrow seat in hopes of forging alliance with DeNaris. Kristen Cole suddenly finding his Dornish pride is hypocritical. He has been bent, bowed, and broken. He abused and shamed bastard children for being bastards. He fought against a woman's right to rule simply because she is a woman.

It is understandable that for once he wants to live on his own terms to die by his own decisions, but him tried to frame it through his Dornish heritage further amplifies how much hypocrisy he embodies. He reaches back towards his heritage only when he can justify the choice he already wishes to make. But what he grasps is not Dorn itself. It is a distorted memory of it. One filtered through decades of serving the very system, Dorn resisted. One that still only works to justify his actions. He cannot even remember full house Martel words.

He remembers only the fragments convenient to him. That is perhaps the greatest indication of how far he is drifted. A man born of Dorn now interprets Dorn through a Western. see lens. Love that. But yeah, this idea of like, I like, you know, it's the title of the episode, but these characters across the continent invoking legacy in a way that they don't fully, that they've edited in a way that's convenient to them.

I think that's a really fascinating concept. To suit the need in the moment, for sure. And it reminds me of like every time Viseras gets brought up and it's like, what would your father have done? And it's just like, immediately we are misremembering who Vassar, King Viseries. was. I think this episode, with everything with Dorn and Maria, the use of Magor's tunnels in the Red Keep, the fact that Damon in his big speech through the gold cloaks yet again invokes Valeria and he's doing it in a triumphant way and we can just hear Vassaris's voice in our ears.

If we don't remember our histories, they're going to do the same to us. Damon brings up Dorm too, right? So you have Ormond saying Dorn in this one case, I think I'm better than everyone. I Ormond think I'm better than everyone. But Dorn here, this one moment in time and history, I can see an aspect of resistance that I admire. Damon listing Dorn again on the conquest to-do list, right? One more frontier to conquer.

It just tells us so much about where we are. And yeah, it's fun, like, because we're in the Night of the Seven Kingdoms era to remember, as we talked about a lot covering the first season of that show, that Darren the second, Darren the good, that's when Dorn was fully brought into the fold through, like the email noted, diploma, through marriage. Yeah. Right? And so that darn email was much longer, but just the idea that, like, by the time of Nine of Seven Kingdoms, like, the Martels are married, like, and Deneres is more Dornish than not, honestly. You know, by the time we get all the way down there.

Our beloved Bailer Breakspeer, does he have silver targ hair? No. No. Golden Dragons and Stone Dragons Ilya Martel. He raped her. He murdered. Killed her babies.

This conversation, Joe, this lesson transpires at the footley Sevas table. This was a real, real, real fun thing to see on the screen at last. Cool to see how they designed it and built it. I was like, where are the screens in the middle and then to see that they were there and have been removed? Of course, you know, the attention to craft and detail is

really just top tier. I love that in the BTS, they were talking about like what a prop nerd Ryan Condal is, which like we did a great episode with him, uh, talking about like the greatest props in, in film history. That's a really fun episode of House of R. But Ryan, uh, that's a video, yeah, that's a video. Like, you can see Ryan's collection behind him on that video and it's just, like, insane what he has collected over time. Really amazing. Real goal stuff. Tremendous hobby. Tremendous hobby. But when they're like, Ryan's a prop nerd, I was like, that's a a wild understanding it. But yeah, the building of this Savas board is just like incredible. And it's a very symbolically rich setting for this conversation, right? A cunning mind can resist

the most savage of beasts is what Ormond says to Darren. And what does Darren do as Orman says this? Beats him with a dragon. Beats him with the dragon. A dragon. Savas in the books is a way that, a thing that Tyrion uses to like sort of under understand the mind of his opponents, right? And so it's just, you know, he would know everything he needs to know about Ormond, watching this tantrum. But speaking of fake Agon, like fake Agon throws a tantrum over a Savas board. So like, you know, this, again, this is just like. Yeah. The Doren Association Quentin on the door in front, really, really, really, really fun. And like the mix of chess and other strategy games that inspired George and the question of whether they'll actually release this is like a real

game that people can play. But that would require actually like, like, locking in all the rules. What are the rules? You would need Georgia's participation. I was like, maybe we're getting closer. I love in the BTS when they were talking about and they're like, and it has a screen in between I was like like battleship and they're like, so we called it battleship. And I was like, yeah, exactly.

Great shit. Tregor, risk, all of that. I love battleship. I don't love risk. I get bored playing risk personally. It doesn't engage my mind the way that it does some people. Some people can play risk for hours and it simply could not be me. Yeah.

Yeah. I was never a big risk kid either, but maybe I didn't have enough experience with it to fall in love. possible. Darren Joe, a character who sees the board. Ormond, as you noted, missing the dragon, the indignity of losing to the dragon, his response, which Darren recognizes right away. Oh, my God. Oh, we could start over, right? I got lucky. I got lucky. He knows just the rage that Ormond is about to unleash. The fact that Ormond thinks, as he is sharing this wisdom with his pupil, that he's the cunning mind. The dragon is the savage beast.

But in fact, Darren, the dragon, is the cunning mind who, best, Ormond, the actual savage beast in this instance is so delicious and wonderful. And as we talked about on Sunday, the shot of them both, you know, Darren to move it to reset the board. And Ormond's like, oh, reaching for it in their hands meeting on the stone dragon piece. That visual manifestation of seeking to control dragon power and dragon might and dragon advancement. Not the subtlest thing the show has ever done, but I quite liked it.

Well, there's this stuff in the book about in the Savas game as sort of like, when do you, when do you play the dragon? Like, when do you deploy the dragon, right? And Darren does it perfectly. And Ormond doesn't understand how and when to do it. And Reneer is certainly right now is like, when do I play my dragon on Tumpleton? I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, there is something about Darren as like a prodigy here that is also fun and interesting to think about.

Never apologize for victory, Ormond, tells Darren, as he has taken. taken a deep breath to try to control himself and walked to stand behind Darren with his hands and his shoulders in a super cool chill, really reassuring way. Supportive. Nurturing. And then he's like, you know, I'm going to smooth this over by showing you the coin that I had minted to announce you as king. Declaration of intent. What's fun is when you rewatch that scene, you can hear him sort of like jangling the coins around earlier when he's talking. Like he's building up to this like thing he's really excited to show Darren. He got sidetracked by getting embarrassed being a thin good one.

That's so tough. One side has no money. Going to the veiled bag for coin. And Ormond, on the other hand, has so much that he could just print up new gold pieces. This great branding, this declaration of intent. Oh, man. So this is a, you mentioned House Gardner before. This is like an interesting gambit inside of a piece for crows.

that we presume Varys plants a gardener coin to throw suspicion on the Torrell's because Aletta Terrell loves to pay for things with the gardener coin because they're they're thinner. And so she's like cheating people out of their full price. But Varis to throw suspicion off himself in helping Tyrion escape. Plants a gardener coin. This is the quote from Peace for Crows. Gold, yes, but the moment Circe took it, she could tell that it was wrong. Too small, she thought too thin.

The coin was old and worn. On one side was a king's face and profile. On the other side, the imprint of a hand. This is no dragon, she said. No, Kyber and agreed. It dates before the conquest, Your Grace. The king is Garth the 12th, and the hand is the sigil of house gardener. So this idea of a coin, a specific coin, it could be used to cast suspicion on certain characters.

And so now that there are King Darren coins inside of King's Landing, where could that coin, those coins be planted that Reneira could find them and say, oh, you're loyal to my enemy. Ormond's paying you. Yeah. Dangerous. You know the kind of character would probably ask that question? What can I do with this coin? Masaria.

Masaria. Think you might be onto something here. Yeah. Great shout. Amund and Alice. Let's head to Haran. Which stuff go? Dude, I can't.

I'm paraphrasing off the top of my head, but one of the best. We love the comments on the pod. We love when you are not only consuming the pop but talking to each other about it. One of the best ones in a while was like on Talk to Thrones from Sunday night. And it's like, was anyone else, again, I'm paraphrasing, just keeping a running list of all the things in here for Joanna. And it was like, cats, which stuff go? Scrained at like all of the hard emotions. For me.

Oh, man. Joanna, stop me if you've heard this before. Yeah. It's raining at Harenhall. In Heronnell. It is raining in Heronnell. And there's a goat. Come on, she's the goat.

She's definitely skin-changing into the goat and using it as her security camera to see when someone's ringing the doorbell. That's what's happening. She's always exactly where they show up. Immediately. Immediately. Now, when they're scaling the cliff face to enter via God'swood, which like, I don't know, maybe they need some fencing in Haranol, that seems like a security risk if that's possible. I guess it's maybe she just would have like heard them and known and had time to walk down,

but she's always there right away. She is using her animal king. One of the things she says in this episode is my fortress. And indeed it is. Well, indeed it is. I have a theory. Tell me. I don't think it's true.

Okay. So when she's describing Heron Hall, right? Yep. And she says, this castle breathes. She swallows the greedy, the heedless. Her founding stones were water with the blood of men. And she's always dusty. iconic, frankly.

In episode two, when she was talking Damon about wanting ownership of Harenhal, she says, for all their worth, they will never satisfy my hunger. So this idea of the castle is a she who thirsts and Alice is this woman who hungers. And when Alice says she was recently grieved, recently grieved because Damon's like, we're not giving you a castle, are you fucking getting me? But just sort of like this grieved, hungry woman and this sort of grieved, thirsty castle. And just, I'm not saying she is the castle, but like, what if she's the castle? A physical manifestation of the castle. Or maybe this human hot witch form is just another, okay, barn owl and goat. I use the skin when I need it.

Yeah. But I am her and all itself. Madam Mim, like whatever she needs to be. Great stuff. I love it. On the one who has been grieved front, also just incredible. like I can be the mommy that you need. What's the mother?

The one who has been grieved. I have been grieved recently. Great stuff. Oh my mother. Great stuff. They're looking for Amon, these hunters who first enter here, as are the others later,

because let's just remember, Reneer put a bounty out and is offering up Harenhaas a prize for anyone who finds Amin O'anai. Here's my question. Yeah.

You know, and Alice is like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Ungrateful queen, she calls Renira here. Yeah. And then later says, I'm of a mind to send a message to the queen myself. Great work, Damon.

Great work, Renira. I'm sure this will be fine. But what does Alice want if killing Amon would get her Harren Hall? And she's not killing him. She's got some other long con plan here. What does she want? Well, if she kills him, someone else just comes, right? But if she kills him by Renira's edict, she gets Harrenhal, which is what she wants.

Is the question like, how does she keep it? Yeah, because you can't. There are always men who will come and try to take Harenow? I think there's that and how to secure a stronger control. I think one of the answers could be it's just a hole in the logic of the story at this point. That's possible. But I actually think she could want something up for her. I'm not saying, ooh, gotcha, House the Dragon.

I'm just sort of like, oh, what does she want if her stated want, Heron Hall could be solved while Amon is sleeping on the wherewood bed. I think part of it feels to me like Alice is a character. first of all, is pissed, right? So she's like, Damon hand-waved my request, didn't take me seriously. They're not, I'm not working with them anymore. I think maybe it's just in the mix a little. But also, I think there's a larger question that the Renera Sabbath of Frey Exchange

really brings to the fore of, well, what good is Renera's pledge at all? So Renera saying, you kill Amon, you get the castle, means literally nothing to Alice or probably to anyone else. because Heronhol was fucking pledged to the phrase by Jase and Roneiro's response to that now is, my son's dead, which is like not how this works. I'm not sure Alice knows all of that. I feel like Alice knows everything. That's, you know what?

I feel like Alice knows everything. You're right. Also, to go back to the Odyssey. Yeah, please. In an age of a parent magic, which is the opening scroll of the Odyssey. Yeah. Do I believe that Alice Rivers is like concocting

where would paste dreams and changing into a goat and all those other things? Yes. But what I also like is, is there's like plausible deniability that maybe she just threw the rocks where she knew the bats were sleeping. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Yes.

Like did she summon bats with a witchly power or did she know just how to throw a rock inside of this old castle and then the bats and the bats? And the bats will come forth, you know? Yeah. Absolutely. Just asking questions. Great timing from the bats. Great timing from the thunder clap. And she's like, ooh, and the ghost.

And it's like, you got lucky with that thunder. That one guy, the one hunter, looked a little bit like cousin Greg was like, great stuff really really very entertaining and wonderful I'll have to rewatch for that quite enjoyed that quite quite quite enjoyed that Amid has some dream therapy to work through still we cut to him

dreaming of Agon we hear the rooksress screams of Amin burning Egan we hear the brothel laugh when Egan and his mates the sycophants who Laris will mention elsewhere Discover Aemond curled up Feetal position with Mommy Dearest, Sylvie. This is other great work for you.

I want to talk to Thrones when you're like, I have forensically analyzed all of these egg-on sounds, and I know what scenes they come from. I thought it looked really, really, really cool. The Sapphire eye open. Sapphire looks great. Like, really. In all of these.

Man, you know, the like REM sleep, other eye moving, and then the Sapphire opens, really very specific and cool. When he wakes and he's terrified and he grabs the dagger, He says, Amon says, of Egon, his face was on fire. I saw him. He was clutching at me, dragging me down into the dark. So, Amid is having a parallel experience to Damon's season two experience.

We got to see those dreams for Damon. Yes. And so we know how this works. Real memories and real trauma, but with a heron haul twist. Things happen in those dreams that didn't actually happen to you. How soon will he be fucking his mom in his dreams? Or in reality. He already has.

He has fucked Allison's in those dreams. Okay, cool. Absolutely no question. Though actually, maybe he'd be in a better mood if he woke up and that had already happened because that's clearly what he wants. I have a very important wig watch update. Please share it with us. Our listener, Kat. Couldn't help but notice that in tonight's episode, when waking from his nightmare at Heron Hall,

Amon's hair had a distinctive wave to it, the same wave pattern we see in Vassaris, Damon, Egon, Egan, Helena, Allison, and Darren. So is this Amon's natural hair restored to gentle waves by the rain in the river? Has he been flat ironing it in every other scene? Or is his hair straight and these waves are from Alice wet setting with overnight braids? These are important questions. Kat's email was titled, Has Amon been flat ironing his hair this whole time? I love it. It's a great question worth asking, I think. Constructuring is entirely possible. But I think also maybe the damp air of the riverlands could like, you know, sort of frizz it up and like, you know, bring it out. A day at the beach, you know? Yeah. The human mid-Atlantic. Yeah. Great stuff. What will the twists be that Amon sees? How many dreams will we get? The question of will we see any of them is on my mind. You know, will we get the clarity of, okay, thrown room scene with Damon and Vassaris, but with the added, I'm locked in, I can't get out. I'm in here talking to Reniro, but then I, whoops, chopped our head off. Oh, Viseris, I see you weeping over your dead wife and kid. I feel a little bit bad about how I responded to that in real time. Or will we not actually see any of this? Here's what Condal said on inside the episode. The idea was to give Amon to Per parallel experience to Damon, if not exactly the same. It's a much more grounded

Aaron Hall story that still pays homage and service to the history of the castle and to the story we told in season two, aka... People didn't like it. People didn't like it. We have to do it. We're doing it. It's important to do it. But we're going to do it a little differently. Here's my question for you, I guess. He's like, more hot witch let fewer dreams. And I'm like, you know what? Okay. But was the thing that people bumped on the dreams? My recollection is that the thing that people bumped on more was like, Damon is one of the more fun characters on the show when he was siloed for too long in this plot and away from other people on the storyboard. Was it really just like the dreams were too abundant?

Maybe it was both. I think it was part of it. Yeah. I think it was in the next. All right. I mean, people like Amen a lot less than they like Damon. So I'm really excited for this, but I'm curious to see what the tolerance for it will be, given that there wasn't a lot of tolerance for the day.

And the question is how long is it going to go on? Right. We don't know. Maybe we just move right on to drink. and the breast milk. I mean, Amid would like that. But he does have a lot of Heron Hall therapy to work through

and he's in a position to benefit from it in a way that frankly, Aigon is not. They're on these parallel journeys of blaming each other. This is where Alice throws the dagger of prophecy

across the room as she cradles him, which is just such a symbolic literature. Wonderful stuff. Great stuff. And Amid as he curls up against her bosom, Joe.

Very fetal. He invokes Helena. And then calls Alice. Mommy. Let's see it. She saw it. She said I would die. And I ruined everything. Incredible stuff.

You know that's seen in Ferris Bueller when Ferris, who, like, when they've been pretending to be Mia Sarah's dad and he goes to pick her up and she like, you know, they kiss or they hug or whatever. And he's like, and the principal's like, oh, so that's how it is in that family. Yeah. So I feel like Alice responded to him being like mother. she's like, oh, so that house, that's how it is in that family. And then she just starts, she's like, oh, nursery rhyme, humming time.

Mommy, mommy o'clock, ready. Reporting for D.I. I thought you were going to say, did I, did it remind me of when Simon Strong tried to, like, shh, shh, shh, with Damon, which it kind of did. But I just, I think that, like, uh, let's just hand Alice everything she needs to, uh, have control of Aman. No question. Oh, hot mom kink.

Guess what? Mommy's here. I'm a lot of rich story ahead here. Amon, undeniably very afraid, which feels notable because this was something that Helena talked about at the beginning of the season, right? After he claimed Vagar, he forgot what fear was, but he remembers now. And then when Allison takes that to Amon, he's like, I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. We talked about this a lot at the beginning of the season, what Amon's relationship to

in response to fears and also to loneliness. And, you know, we get the version of, like, Helena, once again, like she did with Damon, just observing. Helena says to Allison, like, no, yeah, he's at Heron Hall, right? He burns, but without fire. So she has access to Amon's experience here, just as she did with Damon when she, like, made her way into the vision. So that's interesting, just from the Helena point of view.

But while Egon and Eamond in this episode are both blaming the other. doing the mommy loved and best and blaming the other for all of the ills inflicted upon them. And they both have reason to do that, right? But also, of course, both have a lot of blood on their ledger. I would say that Amon is showing clear regret for what he has done in a way that feels a little bit different. He's able to maybe benefit from the Heron Hall therapy here, much like Damon did. But also, like, it made me think of when he told, speaking of Sylvie and the curled up on your bosom sequence, What he said to her in that scene, season two, episode two was, I do regret that business with Luke, right?

He is capable of looking inward and realizing that he did something wrong. Does he then make better decisions after? No. No, and that's tragic in a different way than not being able to identify it at all. I do think it's important that the Agon and the Amens, even as they continue to make decisions we don't agree with, are looking inward. No question. That just makes them more compelling characters. Similarly with Kristen, like, do I think he deserves a full redemption?

No. Is he a more interesting character now that he has started to, like, reflect. Yeah, think about it. No question. Clean his sword with the lemon. Yeah. I really love it was so satisfying to watch. It was like people cutting a honeycomb.

Videos of the honeycomb cutting. I really find out of quite soothing. I do actually. Yeah. That's my preferred form of ASMAR. This is your second mention of honey in a week. Yeah. I've been on a honey kick, as you know.

Yeah. It's interesting on that comparison front, too, to think about the kind of feedback they're getting from those around him, because Laris doesn't get too soon, was like, I'm going to give you some cold heart facts. You suck. Yeah. Alice is like, let me cradle you against my warm and milky bosom. Yeah. And also, you're going to benefit from, yeah, indeed.

You're going to benefit from her and all therapy. So they're getting feedback in different forms, which will be more effective? Should we watch? Gentle parenting versus tough love and see which we're. That's how better? You know, listen, they both stab people inside of this episode. So let's talk about that. Amen, learning the truth about Vagar leaving.

This was interesting. That flash of Vagar's eye, we talked on Talk to Thrones about that, bringing to our memory that cut when Reneera's in labor at the end of season one, we cut to Cyrax screaming. And what edits like this, this Fagar-A-Man moment, that Syrac's Renera moment do, to really heighten this sense of the connection between. You know, the idea that the Targaryens are their dragons. They're so connected to them. And then where is the ability to divide?

And then if the tie is that deep, how do you maintain some ability to say the hubris of dragon control? But also this idea of like, Vagar going around without Amon. And again, like with Amon and Aegon, you know, finding sunfire, sweet boy, long and the dying. I want everyone to know that you've been... We have pet names for each other via text. We will never reveal them all. They're many and varied. But you have since that discussion on the pod last week

been calling me Sweet Sunfire, which I really like. Gentleest cream puff. Great. That hard weekend, it's really brought a smile in my face every time. Show me those nobees. But yeah, this idea of like,

How can I, like, so it's hard enough for Agon. Yes. Sorry, poor Aagon, but like a dragon lord. Yeah. His whole life, the most beautiful dragon in all the realm. Bars from Laris. To have lost. So gorgeous.

They named him after the son himself. Right. To have lost, you know, this absolute symbol of his power and worth. Yeah. And then for Aemond, who knew what it was like to live without that power. Yep. to once again feel abandoned and to feel, oh, no, now I just have to go back to being that boy, the boy that everyone kicked around and made fun of.

Right. And then you get to the indignities of your childhood and your humiliation, like not been sufficiently avenged. Alice, an idea of like the cycles that he finds himself in. I feel like you use the word abandon. If you're aiming, it's worse to think that Vagar just left. Then... Didn't die. Yeah.

Oh. And so I loved, loved, loved the no without her on nothing line. It's real Tony Stark and Peter Parker. If you're nothing without that suit, then you shouldn't have it to me. I like lies. You know, I love that moment in Homecoming, so that was on my mind here. But, like, so much of Aiman's sense of self and identity and worth has stemmed from claiming Vagar. But I think she mispronounced a dragon name.

Just remember it. I feel like I make mistakes all the time and you're perfect. You're perfect. So I needed that. I needed bagar. Bag off. Show us atopians bag off. Oh, man.

Like, the conversation we were having on Talk the Thrones were Chris was asking, do you think Alice sort of orchestrated that last fight in a way to draw Amon in to come to her rescue? And I think, I think absolutely without question that she, she who has defended herself, sort of made herself vulnerable so that Amon could come out and, you know, stab them and feed the werewood trees and blood and all that sort of stuff like that. But feel like he can do something. Without her, I'm nothing. No. Guess what? Look at that. You still have a valerian steel sword and you're a badass fighter with a side wound with like whatever organ's been punctured or whatever. Still a swimming kidney, but who knows for sure? So, like, you know, no, you got it in you, my guy? Yeah, fluffing him up a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that he made not just, not that blackfire after the casting of the dagger, the blackfire was back in his hand, but to actually pierce one of those would be assailants on a root of the wherewood tree, given the way that Alice, not only talked in this episode about the blood and the bones of the castle, but talked about those roots, the roots of the bed that Damon slept. And it's like, okay, Amon is making his offering.

It was all very good. I had the same read on it as you. Alice could have gotten them out of there in a second if she needed to. Yeah. What is your read speaking of reads, though, on what is happening with... Howling Reed? Wow. You're in your bag today.

I love Hallen Reed. Love. The fact that Vagar is burning alone. This is new for us, right? Vagha. The fact that Vagar has rebranded as Vagha. Oh, you mean, okay. I thought you meant, like, the way that Eamon is burning without fire.

The trauma hell of the inferno of Harenha. No, yeah. Okay. So in the book at this point, it's Vaga, Vaga, with Aymann on her back, is just indiscriminately burning the Riverlands. So is Vigar doing this? Because it's what Aymn, she thinks Aymn wants. I think it's crucial that Aymond isn't doing it from an adaptive point of view because

I think if we're trying to like have some empathy for Aiman, it's important that he hasn't just like lost all of his marbles and is just like maniacally burning. Yeah. The countryside. Well, and you asked about this in the book spoiler section because we were anticipating Alice and Amon becoming a part of the same storyline. Yeah. You were like, well, if Alice cares this much about like this place.

Right. How is she going to like enjoy Amon just like toasting the entire countryside? Guess what? It was Vagar all along. Incredible stuff. Just wonderful. You know what else was wonderful? Alice sitting there with the needle point.

Did it make you think of Ruth from Widows Bay? Sure. Do you think it's the exact same path? passage. Exact same quote. Do you think she's needle pointing the tapestry of record? No, she would never have made some of the choices that have been made this season. She would never put Torin Manderly on the tapestry.

Never put sap at the threat. Right. Sap is on this competition for Heronhol. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I like two visually, we talked earlier this season about how seeing Vagar against the scale and scope of Harenhol really help cement Vagar's size. It was the opposite with Aymand in a very effective way when he's looking at. out from the back and he looks like a speck of fucking dust.

Oh, yeah. Harn Hall looked huge. Okay. And, okay. Gertie. Once again, I do have some notes about the green screen look when, you know, so when those guys were climbing the cliffs. But then I remembered what it looked like when John and E.

Grette climbed the wall. And I was like, it looked just like this. And that's a great moment in television. So you know what? I can just unclutch about this. Maybe those guys had made out furiously at the top of the climb. Yeah, exactly. And I got to hear.

Baylish talk about it, then, you know, that'd be great. The climb is all. There is. Great moment in television history. Truly wonderful. What did you think about on the adaptive change front for Eamond here? And we've talked about other versions of this, the idea that Eamond was like, this victory will be mine alone versus like in the book versus in the show.

And again, in the book it's always unreliable whose account is it, right? But versus in the show like, cannot convince anyone to go with him, right? Begues Helena, tears in their eyes. And she's like, I'm good, bro. And how sad that is. is we get another version of that here because when he finds out from Alice about Renier taking King's Landing and it's like he's so quiet and sad and defeated I thought I dreamed it. And Alice is like maybe this time I don't go, oh, you didn't know.

Maybe that's not the approach. Different energy here. Different energy is required here. Incredible. Oh, my God. That killed me. Small wonder then, this is the passage from fire and blood. that when word of the fall of king's landing reached him,

the prince felt thrice the fool. His fury was fearsome to behold. This is like real sad boy stuff here. I will burn everything. Yeah. And here he's like, yeah. I felt that dream. It's broken.

Completely, completely broken. And then starts. Bad bent and broken? Exactly. Okay. And broken. And this is where he starts talking about Amund and how he tormented him. And Allison loves him more.

and, yeah, Egon. And Alice is like, I know what I need to do. Have you seen all the memes? I know you're not on Twitter because you're a better person than I am. But have you seen. But I see memes on Instagram. Have you seen all the memes of just sort of like Egan being like, she loved Eamon more and Eamon being like, she loved Egan more.

And Allison being like, Helena's the only one I really care. Or like the Dondraper, I don't think about you at all or just like all these other options. So good. So good. So, good. So, good. So, like, like, Alison's like, who? It's great stuff.

I did find myself in my notes accidentally. writing Alice or Allison in place of each other a couple times. I'm talking about the mom stuff, which is, it kind of works. George, I don't think it was an accident. It kind of works. Igan and Laris, speaking of this parallel journey and blaming each other for all of their misfortune. You know what's really gratifying? How do people are coming around on Laris? My guy, Laris strong. Do you want to just talk about the red apple now or do you want to wait until I get there? Okay, here's the deal. Go ahead. He's got it. And we both agree on this. A shitty red delicious apple. It's a red delicious apple. It's a red deletious apple. It's a red deletious. It's a red deletal. No, it is a red delicious apple. Does it have the shape of a red delicious? It's a little smaller. It's a little smaller. It's a little small, but it is not one of your beloved pink lady.

Certainly, yeah, certainly not. Sort of situation, right? Galaxy's Edge. I don't know what they're called. Okay. Exactly. He's like, oh, God, this disgusting red delicious apple. And then Agon comes back a little like, oh, mopey, like you were right.

And then he goes, hair, how big. have an apple. He gives the disgusting, probably wormy, red delicious apple. We both hate a red delicious to the shitty king who has come back. He doesn't want to eat it. Food is precious at that camp. And so if he liked it, he was sitting there. So if he liked it, he would have, he was a midmeal. He had no idea that. No, he was midmeal and he hadn't eaten it. Egg on. He was just like, this is gross. He was saving it for the end because it's, no. He's team right apple. And that's undeniable and it's clear. Okay. So you want to claim red deliol. If you're claiming Larry's, you're claiming a red delicious. I don't think that's a red delicious. It's not the right shape for Red Delicious. If you worked on House of the Cracket in Season 3,

can you let us know? We know much remains secret. Matthew Needham, if you're listening. Is Laris Team Red or Team Green? Was that a Red Delicious? Okay. They're still, before they get back to Rook's arrest and sit with the apple, they have to be out in the woods.

Laris and Egon and everyone have heard word of Wendish Town. Right? And what that guy? did there. And Egon's on the march. He says that he intends to find his brother and kill him or die in the attempt. And Laris says, your brother's coiled Viper and you are hungry and broken and spent. And Egon just goes full John Locke. Bow, but broken. Yeah. The three bees. That's you. Stop telling me what I can't do. Don't tell me what I can't do. What I can't do. Walk about of a sword here. Yeah. John Locke, though. It comes from a very different place, John Locke, than it does in Nagon. It's quite, quite different. Interesting that the language that Laris is using there is the language to keep

Egon in the, like, armor, cripples, bastards, and broken things. You and me. Kinship, yeah. Us. Interesting. About that broken. And I think certainly the fact that Egon is rejecting that bond is part of what triggers Laris' response.

Later, Egon feeling very sorry for himself by the busted carriage, launching into a series of just laments against demons, right? He was Coles Pet, he was the Prodigy with the Sword. This was a very funny scene in performance from Tom Glencarny. Quick student, fluid and High Valerian. We got a little bit of the, we were saying,

oh, Agen seems to have, he was gotten a little bit better at Hyvalerine. Fucks it up here, right? Hear me, I am the perfect. Wonderful stuff. And Mother loves him best. So, okay, they're blaming each other great. Less remorse from Agon, certainly.

No hot witch to nuzzle him and help guide him toward that remorse. It is really, really, really tough. May you all find a hot wedge to nuzzle? But here's what he has. Laris strong. Tough love. Tough fucking love. It got every advantage, Laris said.

Every chance to shine. All the things that Laris himself, of course, never had. Because even though Laris is from a proud family, House Strong, Harren Hall, he was never good enough. He was rejected. for his own family. Yeah. And what did Agon do

with those advantages? Flying drunk into a battle to which you were not invited. Aconic. A dragon's so beautiful they named him after the sun. You could have risen to greatness. Did he or did he do something else?

Let's see what Laris has to say. He lays, reveling in mediocrity, fucking anything in sight and drinking yourself into oblivion with your sycophantic friends. I'll tell you the truth. You were a terrible king.

But worse than that, you are a terrible man. That's in the running for my favorite line of the show to date. I know you said that on talking about. I just thought that was incredible. Give me a chill. Because of the way that Matthew Nied him said fucking anything in sight. I actually genuinely really enjoyed that. Really, really great.

But worse, you are a terrible man. No, I know. So, so withering and good in the performances. You were a terrible king, but worse than that, you are a terrible man. It's so good. the performance is amazing, but the idea for Laris that, like, Egon has wasted these advantages, that would be so galling to him, right?

And he's like, the fact that Egan, for several episodes now, has been like, woe is me, I'm like you. Right. You know? Right. When Laris is doing everything he can to keep him alive. Right. And to say to him, they'll see it as a weakness, but it can be your strength. Yeah. Elizabethan wrote in about

Allison's children and the Stark Kids. Mm. He said, Joe made a comment on Talk to Throne but all the different adults trying to control Allison's children. And it really clicked for me how much the Hight Tower, like, dark tower kids, are paralleling the Stark kids from the original Game of Thrones. I don't necessarily think it's intentional from the show's point of view. Obviously, this is what all the kids are up to in fire and blood, to a certain degree.

But it makes sense in a moment where the black's goodness and the green wickedness are being called into question. Some quick points of similarity. The family patriarch is beheaded by the monarch currently sitting on the Iron Throne. So an auto-ned cop tough for me to accomplish. contemplate. Rob and Helena end up in their mother's care. Ari and Darren are in the care of a ruthless, cunning, rich head of house, Taiwan or Ormond.

Sonsa and Aegon have been hidden away by someone brilliant and sneaky but otherwise powerless, bailish and Laris. And Brandon Ayman are with ancient magical beings attempting to use them in their own centuries-spanning agenda, Alice and the Raven. I like it. Very fun. Very fun. Where does Thailand fit in? I'm so, I was so genuinely happy for you.

And you know what I was really happy about? It's crazy because I don't give a shit about this character at all. You know what I was really happy about? We never settled the terms of our bet. So I don't have to pay up in any kind of regard because we didn't firm it up. Tough for me. Really tough. But Thailand's here.

Yeah. And he is. I watched this episode before you did and I said there's something you're really going to like. And I don't know if you had the experience watching the episode where you're like, was it this? This is like when we watch Supergirl and Jummi's like there's a needle drop. But I'm like, is it this? You're like, was it this? Was it the John Locke reference?

Was it the Tunny Stargrafins? Is it all the cats? I did text you ask, did someone show their dick? Yeah. And then as soon as I got to Thailand, I gasped and I knew. But I was just like, do you think I would text you? You're going to love this episode. Someone shows their dick.

Like, no. But Thailand's here. Yeah. And you kept the faith. You think he's blending in with that? With his velvet attire? What is wrong with this guy? He's a band of cell sorts.

He's a lanister. If it were Jason, it would be way worse than you know it. No question. Jason Lannister would just be like, would anyone like to sample some of my honeyed wine? Nara tossing that wine aside, it was so great. So he washed up from the battle. Yeah, he didn't die. He didn't drown in his armor.

How do you feel about the unusually buoyant Lannisters, Jamie and Thailand? Of all of the connections to other parts of the Game of Thrones canon, this one feels the most the most thematically resonant. The Lannisters just don't sink in the drinking. You can't sink a Lanister. Oh, man. You have to cut their head off. It's like a vampire.

Very amusing when he shows up. And, yeah, I mean, the vampire. Ormond. Ormond. The vampire Jason Lanister. Until they proved us wrong. His chance. So this is great because right away, you're like, the shift so quickly from, whoa.

An ally here, holy hell, into Laris and Thailand like, oh, so this is how this would help you. Oh, so sorry. Oh, right. Of course. You want to make Castorley Rock the new seat of the king. Oh, sorry. Sorry, did I miss when Egon made you hand while I was out actually fighting in our war?

Also, by the way, I fucked the wives. Also, there's a lot of monkeys. Monkey reference. You couldn't even handle the monkeys. Oh my God, the monkeys is great. It's not going to like the monkeys. Wild stuff. While they're going back and forth, Joe, Egan is sitting there.

Yeah. With the crown of the conqueror just kind of in a leather bag that Janus can very easily find. If I'm Laris, by the way. that crown is with me at all times. You know what they should have done? You know who's not babysitting the crown? Aigon. Can't leave it with Agon.

That's fucking nuts. That's nuts. But even Larrish and Carriott, where is the, oh, I found an immunity idol on Survivor. And I'm going to go bury it. Like, you got to hide this shit. Now, I know there's the risk of what if we need to move quickly. But the fact that they're carrying this on their person is nuts. All Laris is trying to do is get on that cog and get out of there.

I know. He does really want to. He does really want to leave. You're right. He doesn't want to have to dig something. No. But they're going to probably have to dig a hole now for this body. Yeah.

Because Egon, holding some sweet Sunfire scale. And we should say this is a path from this like shifty looking bearded dude who like the whole time ever since they first showed up near Sunfire has been like. Yeah. I actually think Larry should have. I know he's very unhappy that should have clocked that guy. He created a bloody trail here that he now is his, very funny. He's being out whispered by Masari at every turn in this episode. Yeah.

I mean, you see this guy clearly. recognizes you like take care of this before it becomes a problem. But he is dealing with Agon's temper tantrum. So there's a lot to do. It's a busy day for Laris yet again. Yet again. No rest. No rest for Laris.

Gregor is it? You may call me your grace. I would say that the vibe is not. Aigon is really processing Laris' feedback and working to be better. That's not where we find him. That's certainly Larry's. Harris's response, which is like, oh, brother, what are we just talk about? Yeah.

Great stuff. Yeah. Thailand and the reaction, I mean, this is a great trio. I'm excited to. Honestly, this is going to be a big, huge boost for my interest in Thailand. Yeah. Putting it with Laris, totally. Yeah, Laris and Agon.

Great stuff. These. Great stuff. Tragedy triplets. Tragedy triplets is great. Put it on the merch. I love it. Allison, Helena and Masaria, speaking of...

Afraid of having a bad time. Speaking of tragedy triplets. Moon tea order. So Orwhile, who is spotted by one of Masaria's little birds, bringing the stunt cocktail, moon tea in his pocket, but delivering, making a delivery to Allison. Can I just say? By pocket, you mean like fold of his robe. That moon tea, I mean, and also, I have a note for moon tea.

Tell me. the whole thing about Mooney is often like a secretive thing. We always put it in the same distinctive little carafe thing. Let's put that in a Gatorade bottle or something. Come on.

You should just write Moon Tea, abortion tea, on the side of it. Change up the flask. It's a great note. It's a great note for all of Osteros. You're so right. They're doing something to help us as viewers that makes no sense in world.

That's great great shout. Or while at the door Hard guards are there. They're like, you can't come in. I don't know. Disorders of the female persuasion, if you're familiar. Trust a man to be like, I don't want to hear any more going in. Ew.

You're just stuff. So, Orwhile presents the tea. And I thought this sequence was very sad because Allison thanks him, calls him a, he's like, I've always been a faithful servant. She says, friend. And I was like, and he's like, nope. He's like, I'm a political animal. He's like, I did smuggle you over to Dragonstone. when it was politically advantageous to me to do so.

I did actually help with Agon when it's politically advantageous for me to do so. Now, not so much. Now I have to work with Reneira. They've been on the small council together for a very long time. I thought this was real like, it just made us feel how few people Alison really has who she could call a friend. It was very sad on that front. Also, I was like, not me mistaken my colleagues for my only friends. We're friends.

We are. We are real friends. We are real friends. My sweet sunfire. Oh, man. So, Orwhal's like, I can't do this again because Renera's watching me. But he did it this time. Here's my favorite thing is like last night you texted me.

You're like, I know your phone's about to brick. Yeah, I know your bricking hour. I know your bricking hour. I'll text you at the very bricking hour. It was very sweet. Yeah. I know your bricking hour. I just like love that.

You're like, oh, oh, only 13 more minutes. minutes to be able to be in touch with Joanna before she breaks out. Yeah. I felt seen and known. And understood. Love you. You're the best. Listen, if Renera finds out about this, she's, she, it's, it's, it doesn't matter

that Orwell said it's the last time. It doesn't matter that the Moone T, if used, would have actually helped Renira. It would matter to Renira that Orwell has this kind of history with Allison and did this thing without telling her. So it helps establish mistakes for Masaria later when Allison's like. Between us? I'm sorry. I'm like,

I'm not going to keep secrets from the queen. I would never. Not me. She might. Helena, putting food in the cap bowl on the floor, it seems. Just fantastic stuff. I will not have any beast's harm.

She's the best. Allison brings Helena the tea. There is zero doubt in Allison's mine. What awaits? She says you must. It could be a boy. Do you see Agon's era rival to Joffrey Dorene or herself? She will kill it.

she will have no choice or if she does not she will take it from you and then Helena says I don't want it Yeah This is fantastic I mean like this is so hard

Because you see it from everyone's perspective And as we continue to talk about bodily autonomy On the show like You know we talked about this a lot last week In terms of like Darren and Ulf Like who has control of their body Who is a prisoner who is not

but the it's mine, it's my own, it's mine, this sort of like gall and bilbo moment for her. But just like an incredibly, I mean, I just think, I said this on Talk of Thrones, but I just think Fia is like fantastic this season and this, giving her this plot line. And just sort of like watching her later look at the caterpillar in the cage. I mean, we're worried about this like nightshade butterfly caterpillar stuff. We've had multiple, you know, the pages of the book about the poison butterfly. of why and then the conversation between Helena and Jehara this episode about it, like, it would be the death for you and me. It's multiple, multiple mentions now.

Guess what? Not great. But, like, looking at that little caterpillar inside the cage and then her not being able to go outside, you know, make do with the window, but she can't even open the window. She's just sort of like, she's caged in. Yeah. And also, I can't, I think Fia has talked about this directly, the actress who plays Helena. but certainly a lot of people have interpreted Helena's aspect on the show as neurodivergent, you know, some representation of neurodivergence. And I think especially like when she is talking anxiously about wanting to look out, but needing to see the moon, it struck me like that demeanor.

I just find this performance fascinating and the writing for her this season, I think, has been extraordinary. Really, really great. I loved the scene. I mean, the way that she responds here to Allison, just the refusal, right? But I loved also the scene in the godswood when Allison, when she clocks that Allison is lying. You know, they have to go tonight, right?

She heaves like a disappointed sigh. Yeah. She's like, you walk away when you lie. And, you know, the fact that Allison, while doing this to try to save herself, to escape, of course, but also to save her daughter. her Helena. Yeah.

The thing that she has decided is more important than anything else in the world to her that in order to try to do that, she is asking Helena to not save her own child

to leave her child behind and two different versions then of that circumstance here is just the desperate hour for these characters is so palpable and intense here.

I thought it was also really interesting to think about Allison's history with Mointy. Right? We think about, you know,

I mean, everything from season one is so present here. You have, like we talked about on Talk to Throne, that the fierceness of that, the root of that seed of that lesson from Otto to Allison in the fifth episode of season one, the cleave to her mercy part that we talked about

on Sunday, but, you know, the realm will not accept her to secure her claim she will have to put your children to sword, which sparked the You Are the challenge lesson from Allison to Egon that this is like an undeniable aspect of this. But like, I just don't know that I agree. Yeah, but it's like that's what's sad about it. Right. And it's just like Otto has poisoned her. Exactly.

And what she keeps repeating, which is like, the crown will make you do stuff, the crown will make you do things, blah, blah, but it's just sort of like, is that true? I mean, Reneera is up against the wall here and like shit that happens with in Flea Bottom in the last episode or whatever, which was not her directive, but like could be traced to her. So like that, like the position is making, is bloodying her hands in ways that she certainly wouldn't want. Yeah. But there have been monarchs who have not been warped by the. crown. Yeah. You know, Vesaris, I would not say, became like a cruel, evil person. No, more just ineffectual. I agree with you. And I know. That's what's so sad that like, whether it's all those poison in the well of a different sort and an episode that talks about poison wells.

Or that the way that Allison thinks about the crushing weight of the throne, which he said to Reneira, which she'll invoke to Lassaria on this episode. And what it did to her. When it did to her. What choices she had to make. But I just don't think, pre-estination aspect of it. I just don't think Rineara, now. bring egg on the usup to me. But like, I think, you know, if she had been given the crown, right. She's not killing these kids. Well, and there's that commentary of like how much ability do the characters, even when at this point in their arc, they are defining their journeys by saying, I will rebel against the thing that someone has told me has to be true my entire life. You know, the choice to go into the tunnel at the end of the episode, the choice to use the necklace

to secure the maid's outfit from a servant in an episode where Allison realizes everyone to spying on her all the time and that person could just go turn her in. It's all desperation. And so we think of the like, Renice-Alicent window in the wall of your prison. And it's like, that's not enough for Allison's anymore, actually. She needs to break out of the prison entirely. Big bathtub. Big bathtub. But is carrying that progress with the pull constantly back into these lessons of inevitability from the past. There's like a real tragic aspect to that, the commentary of that story. And like, you know, the Mooney is, The judgment that Allison brought to Rainira early in season one on this like,

Bowls of the Pleasuredent, Dayman, the Mooney, reaching her, all of that into her own moment of need. In season two. Into now a wider, truer sense of understanding and appreciation for the fact that this can save them from a circumstance. It's almost like you should be a girl's girl from the beginning, Allison. Yeah. Something you think about. Yeah. And so we see all this progress for Allison,

but then the inability in certain other respects to break free. And it's just you think about the decades and decades that she was spent, like having that beaten into her by Otto and other people using her as a tool. It's like her, it's really, it's very, very sad. It's very, very sad. I did notice that when they tried to make the first escape attempt, Helena's like where's DeHara and Allison says they're going to meet us up. Didn't seem like even after the.

You look away when you lie that the Gjahara was going to be a part of this. So that's interesting to confront and consider. Allison does try to protect her child at the cost of her own reputation when she pretends that, first, it's the headache medicine. Masaria said she could sniff a lie. She also is a woman of the night

of a many brothel. She could sniff the Mooney in a second. Also, it's in that mug that you always put Mooney in. Oh, man. So she appeals to Masaria in a couple different scenes in this episode. Initially, it's the indigigestion. that the women endure, right?

And also the I am her prisoner as you were once, which is savvy because it's a way to remind her of how tenuous it can all be, right? Your fortune, Masaria, has improved, but mine, other way. And so that could happen for you too. And then later, when Masaria is waiting, let's break the wheel. Let's break the wheel. Oh, that is the order of things. It'll always...

Maseria just wait to get the steps to catch them. Very amusing. Did you think I would not be here? And so then Allison has to make an appeal of a different sort, because Masaria understands now, Okay, Elena's the pregnant one. Inconvenient air. And Allison says a couple interesting things. We get a, the white worm, you know, your reputation.

Cunning figure, who others feared, not a lap dog. These are rich words in the mouth of a high tower. I just love her accent now. I've come all the way back around. Put her on a podcast. You think she was like, lap dog? Let me file that away until I can check in with Jane Aaron and her dogs. Your theory might be right.

Have you seen that the veil is back in the preview for next week? I did notice that. I mean, maybe the dogs are on the case. It's not really possible. These are rich words in the mouth of a high tower. You've got the Masaria down. Only Damon can walk that path with Renira. This is what Allison says.

She's kind of using Masaria's own game here of working a wedge, you know, spotting the jealousy. But Masaria is more primed maybe for this than she otherwise would have been because Reneira in the small council scene when she follows Damon out, Masaria tries to stop her to talk to her, and Reneer is like, not now. Gotta go talk to Damon. Her intentions may be on you now that you bathe in the warm light of her gaze, but will you stake so high a wager on the whims of a dragon rider? What did she make of the dragon rider part of that?

These incestuous Targaryens. Yeah. That really felt like Allison, it's like, it's tactic here, but sliding back into her. Oh, yeah, just bitter much, babe. Just like, honestly, Allison's like, her warm gaze is on you now. But I once knew the warmth of that gaze. And then it slid elsewhere. And it feels terrible and I know, and you'll know it too.

Reneer is a cunning spider long ago. She drew Alicent into her web. Intoxicated her, Kristen Cole, furiously masturbating. The scent of orange and cinnamon in the room around him to set the mood. Oh, my God. Great stuff. Kristen feels to me like the kind of guy who would jack off with Al. lotion, you know, just to punish himself a little.

Dry. Yeah. That's what the seven would want. It feels good, but so bad. So bad. What do you think Masaria's going to do here? I think the appeal Allison makes this really smart. You want to bask in that globe, but you're not as close to as Damon is and you never

will be. And trust me, I know. I think the most interesting thing for the plot is that Masaria does not tell Renera about this. And keeps the... Both Masaria and Damon are keeping a key secret. from Brinera. And Masaria still can fact-fine and try to gain intel as Mistress of Whisperers

and use whatever she learns about avail against Damon. But this is good Mistress of Whisperer stuff. It's real Laris. I left you auto-high tower in the dungeons when the high towers, when the high towers are back in power. Yes.

She can be like, remember I didn't stitch on you about the moon tea even though you got it in the mug that everyone gets moon tea in? Literally everyone. I'm intrigued by this. too, what this, the potential that this sets up and the information that certain people possess and the choices they can make based on that.

It's a good place for the story to be. Less good place to be, I would say, is trapped in Roneira's former sex tunnel. The tunnel. A cat. phrasing. Well, they all want to be, as you know, and talk to thrones in Reneh sex tunnel.

All of them. The cat. I mean, the cats are around Helena all the time. There's the cat on the small council table. The cats are everywhere around the stairs. The cat, Helene is. Very attuned to the animals. So this was great.

The fact that Helena's, like, come to bed. I was like, she senses something. The candle by the door. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. And so we recognize the mural. This is Reneira's. Yeah.

The Alice of the Pleasure down out for a night of fun with Jamie. I love that you say we recognize the mural. Do you think based on the mural alone, everyone at home is like, that's the door Rennira took out? There's the claws. Yes. You were like, I remember in season one there were dragon claws or did you consult the tape? I went to the tape. Yeah, of course.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. Reneira using this for sex and fun. Yeah. Allison judging her in real time for it. Alicent, because they couldn't use the blood and cheese tunnel, which was, as Helena responded

to in real time, a very harrowing thing to even have to, yeah, confront. And then in the Lady Bayless room. That's right. Allison getting trapped in the tunnel that brought Reneer pleasure. I also think it's interesting that she doesn't know about the tunnels being bricked up. You know what I mean? So you asked an interesting question because on Talk of the Thrones, I stated very definitively without any reason to know that it was a definitive thing to say. That I like the idea of like the hoisted on your own family patard aspect of this, that the high towers at Otto was like, oh, that was of the pleasure den, that that tunnel in Renera's room would have gotten boarded up because of the auto meddling at High Tower interference.

And then it hurts the high towers all these years later. You asked very reasonably, is it possible that they just got boarded up after blood and cheese? I think that is definitely possible. I think it's just more, I want it to be the other thing, but I feel like if they boarded up the Amund's room tunnel after Blood and Cheese because they knew that was the entry point, Allison would have known that that happened and not suggested that they use it. But maybe not.

Who the fuck knows? I'm sure it was Otto. Like, I'm sure it was. And also they can't have blocked up every, Magar's tunnels are boundless. Yes. Everyone who built the Magor Solfast was like, you're dead now.

I'm going to kill you. No one will know the secrets but me. Great stuff. What a guy. Listen, at the end of the episode, they show a tease for next week and the halidana. They're out of the tunnel. They're out of the tunnel. So I'm a little inert maybe.

I don't know. We were like, ooh, what's this about? You know, Chris is like, is this a big deal? I don't know. I guess not. I guess not. But thwarted once again by the spectra of Reneera, I guess. Our listener, Charlie, wrote in to say, George Armour was heavily influenced in Song of Ice and Fire by Tad Williams trilogy, Memory, Sorrow, Thorn.

so much so that he even named the brothers in the house Willem after memory, sorrow, Thorne characters, Josua and Elias. A very important part of those books has a character. Prime presents perfect pairings. What pairs with Reacher on Prime? Reaching for a sparkling punch delivered with Prime.

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blinded by darkness and guided by, you guessed it, a cat's meow. I mean, fun. Delightful. you, when we were texting about this right away, we were like, because I was like, maybe a cat will lead them to freedom, and you were like, like, Aria. And I was just like, I mean, it's all the stuff I love. This is great.

I would say I hope they're okay, but they showed us that they are. They're fine. All right, we're done with the greens. Fuck them. Vaga. See you next week, Vaga. Maybe. Who is it saying?

The Black Council. Sabbath's a threat phrase here. We already kind of talked about this. We should note, I guess, this is. big book change. I don't, I actually haven't seen if there's much chatter about this. Sabbath fray is a badass warrior

and not an old lady gossip. Not being said, I really like this character. She is very entertaining. Along with Horn Manderly, it's like a great bit of spice on the small council. This is like the spiciest small council that we've seen. Have you ever seen the Danny Kay movie, The Courtchester?

One of my favorite movies for all time. Why not? But there's this wonderful Mildred Notwick who plays the witch in that. It's a medieval. There's this very famous routine, the flag with the dragon is the pellet with the poison. No? No, but I'm interested. The vessel with the pezzles and the pellet.

Yeah, anyway. Take it go. The brew that is true. Anyway, this witch, it's like an incredibly cool movie moment. I just bungled it. But this witch character is the one who's like delivering this very, right? And she's just got this like really cool, expressive face and these like, Oh, interesting. It's something you love, and there's a witch involved?

Large round eyes. And, you know, she's got the sort of like the veil and the wimple sort of look that Sabbath Frey has here, which is also, of course, an Olena Tyrell look. But I was just sort of like, she reminded me so much of this woman I love from the court jester. But just like this, I mean, it's just a great expressive face. Yeah. And a great costume that sets her apart from everyone else. Like a different, you know, different stuff. than everyone else. And I think the way that she and Torin are gossiping is, A, funny. It's hysterical. But B, like a reminder of, you know, what the whispers in the hall would be and also just, like, real fire and blood. Some people said Masaria was a great messrs of whispers.

Some said whore. You know what I mean? For sure. Yes. It's very, it's highly comic. I love that observation. And also just the end note of, is it always like this? the complete shit show that Team Black is.

The fact that these two newer observers are like, these guys are fucking... Rain wreck. Oh, no. That's all really, really, really good. Do you think you mentioned, you know, that Elena shares that style? One of the greatest things that's ever happened in the history of the internet was that the way that tells her, see,

I want her to know it was me, inspired all of the cats wrapped in towel. memes of the one The best one is the cat that's in like a bin. It's just remarkable stuff. Will Sabbath's fray costumed as such inspire similar cat memes. One can only fucking help.

Dare to dream. What role do you think she's playing on the small council? Let me say this. And it's another note for Team Black. I don't think they give a shit. They're just like come sit and help because they're desperate.

Okay. How, Torrance master of coin. He is because they need a escape ghost. She is. And Lepo Bay. But we be and. Damon is king consort slash. He's doing some laws stuff.

He's trying to. You think he's master of laws? I mean, not formally. Anyone's master of laws, it might be Sabbath of Frey, who's like, remember this contract that you promised me? Who's master of ships? Alan is both hand to the queen and master of ships. Alan is pulling double duty. Yeah.

I mean, you know, Sabbath the Frey, not on an airist counsel in the book, so we don't have a formal title to point two. I would say that Reniro looking at this and saying Or Weil has a role. Three people have clear Rehn Master has a role. Alan has a preposter's role, but it's there. It's just Damon being like, I do what I want.

So I think this hub of the fray probably has a title. That's what I think. But none of them would make sense. I don't think. And that's okay. But David is just like, I do what I want on Damon Targaryen. I mean.

King Consort. It's worked. It's worked to this point. He still got it. He still got it. The speech worked. Not for long. But like for a second, they were like, you know what?

Can't spend money if you're disembaled and dead. But you got me for a second, damn. I can't believe you called him Dame. What a CR move? CR's on my mind always. The fact that Rainer is like, yeah, my dead son told you you can have her and help, but what if I just give you this small council seat instead? I think the phrase are an interesting house, actually, through which to assess that

because they would really value that small council seat in proximity to power and the way that that made their house seem important and grand. Like, that would matter to the phrase. But the idea that Rear Niro once again is like The pleasure we made doesn't matter Oh, but also I'm not giving you what you're asking for Yeah, I'll tell you what you value

Hugh, no money, right Ulf, no drink, Sabatha, no Heron Hall My belly is mine But would you like this instead? Like if you don't honor your word, why should you're vassals? Something to think about. To think about.

Adam and Bela make their report here in the small council and then they're out in the field together. This is great because Adam is very much like The channeling the Rainis, Males, when Damon was like, get back out into the field. And at the beginning of season two, and Rainies was like, Males was resting gorge and so must I. You know, Adam's like, we just got back. He's like, Baila must rest and gorge.

Yeah. Bill's like, I'm good. Yeah. I'm good. Bail's like, don't tell me what I can't do. Don't tell me what I can't do. Vives on these two. Real vibes.

Adam does a little bit of the like Rings of Power. Speaking of Rings. adventures they must be shared? That's interesting. And then I'll come find you and we'll fly to exile, but only if we eat first. That's a little orange and cinnamon to me. So it's a whiff of oranges and cinnamon. They had real chemistry. Oh, absolutely. No question. Bela wearing, has put the, wardrobe change, put the Targaryan red and black aside and is wearing Philarian blue and says to Adam when they're out in the field. And I know I just said, Reniro won't even talk to me. I know I just said that Adam and Bala have vibes, they are related, but I don't know why this. Why does that stop

anyone before? Come on. He's her uncle. He's her uncle. Right? Wait, let's see. Yeah, because they are Corliss's. Corliss is her grandpa. Yeah. And they are Corliss's sons. Yes. Great stuff. Uncle Adam. Hot, hot, Uncle Adam. Hot, Uncle Adam. And then I'll come and find you and we'll fly to exile, but only if we eat first. Wonderful stuff. The pride language, I thought was interesting for Bayla in that conversation amid all of the like ordained language, both between them there, but just in general across the episode and the character set. The initial, before they're out in the field and we, we visit them there, the initial report that they make to the small council, there's a lot of intel being shared. You know, Orwhile

has his report. Adam and Beala have their reports. Other people are, Damon's like, I'd like us to focus from the gold cloaks and Reneera, that sequence is edited so that multiple times Reneer goes back to Vagar and Amand and the like myopic tunnel vision quest. Baga. Vagha. Before later saying, okay, like, there's an amazing. Vaggar might be how they pronounce it in a high valet. You know how like when Reneer and Damon are talking about it's like daemon?

You know what I mean? Yes. Bagga. I was going to ask you when we got to the sepsine. What do you think about learning High Valerian before season four? Should we try it? while skateboarding and archerying. Yeah.

Exactly. Should we do it? Yeah. Oh, man. That's a great way to die. The Gold Club Conundrum. So Renera follows Damon out of the small council meeting and is like, it was very funny when Damon says Ormond is a fox who's gone to ground, no threat at all,

and then later has to be like, we should have burned him. Here's this coin. Whoops. I made a few mistakes, but of course. I said all along we should burn them. I didn't check the kid, and I told you he was a fox who had gone to ground, but I was right all along. Classic Damon moment there. Here's what Condal said.

Because Renira initially says, this is not a matter for the crown, the gold cloaks, right? And here's what Condal said on Inside the episode. They, so Team Black, they don't know how to wage combat against him, Ormond, which is exactly the design of Ormond's campaign. It's to make them feel helpless and ineffectual and frustrated and maybe goad them into making a mistake. His design at the end of the day is to make sure nobody wants to be a gold cloak and people are afraid to mount a defense in Reneira's name. I would say that Ormond is successfully executing that mission so far. Who's going to want to be a gold cloak after the Feast for Traders? Yes.

And they're also not getting paid. Right. That's also that. No money and your viscera's on the table. What if I paid you and you got to keep your intestines inside your body? Wow. You have to take a shit with those intestines far away from me because I don't like the smell of it, but they can be yours. Oh, that's so funny to think about, like, you know, because I've been wondering, like, how detailed Orman was in his pigeon carried instructions in terms of, like, how to wage this war of terror on the streets of the bottom.

Do it in a way that smells okay in case I ever need to visit. Or do it in the stinkiest way. You know it'll drive them crazy. Bad smells. Bad smells are the worst. Make it smell bad. He thinks everyone is similarly like this. He's like, make it smell real bad.

I love that idea. Reneera is like, Damon, you're. given me Dragonstone vibes when my entire council constantly tried to wage my war without me, talk over me, tell me I was wrong. I looked Keltygar behind for a reason. Fucking Keltygar, that fuck. I slapped him in the face.

I slapped that guy in the face in the hallway. Made me think, too, of when Alicent went to Otto and was like, if you keep challenging me at that table of men, my voice isn't going to carry any weight. You can be the queen, you can be the dowager queen, you can be the queen. The men are always going to try to talk over you and tell

what you should do instead. Daman, I mean, I love Damon. He's so funny. I laugh. And he's like, on the contrary, I flush to fulfill your commands. Just later, I chuckled because it's Damon and it's an hysterical performance, but it's like outrageous. It's galling. Now, we have to balance that with saying that

Renera needs counselors and advice she can rely on, and that she wants, and we talked about this last week with like the kind of the kind of the kind of the bond between not only Orwell and Renira, but Alan and Renera, like, who hasn't a opinion, who has something they can contribute. So Renera wants to hear from advisors.

It was like useless when nobody would offer anything up a couple episodes ago. But that's different from Damon just being like the thing you need me to do. Yeah. I'm just going to not do it. I'll do the thing I want to do. Yeah, I'll get to it. Very, very tough. Damon tells Renira, you fucked up by sending the City Watch after the graffiti painters. This is a different version, but a little bit of a piece, at least adjacent to, or while asking Renira, why does it matter if they anoint you. So what did you think of this? Like, Reneera is very focused on and hung up on the bastard talk for all the reasons we discussed at length previously. Is Damon right to not worry

about it, to let it go? Is this something Reneer needs to stifle and challenge? I think it's really hard for him to ask that of her when Joffrey, you know, shows up in this very episode. Joffrey, who's the last remaining strong son, who is now the heir to the throne. And is now the most vulnerable. The kid who shows up that Rainier can't bring herself to see awake because she'll have to talk to him about Jason Luke or whoever else knows what, you know, and is, I think, probably afraid to feel close to him. And Jace was just like, Jase, her heir was like in every small council meeting, you know, for better for worse, was like in every small council meeting was by her side, had been trained this whole time. She's going to start over with Joffrey. but, like, Joffrey is so vulnerable the way that Jason Luke were.

And Damon has just never really cared as much about those boys as he does about his own, you know, blonde babies. Some of his own children, yeah. The blonde boys who are the heir to the throne. Like, I really think he would prefer. Like, if this were his, one of his white supremacist's blonde targ babies that, you know. Yeah. Well, no, but he would be like, I care what they're saying about my children in the street. No, no question.

This isn't his son. It's Joffrey. And so I think there's forever going to be a disconnect there. I think you're completely right. No question. I think there's also like the luxury that Damon, because people have talked shit about Damon his whole life. Yeah.

And he's got to. And he's like hilarious. Yeah. Either not care or embrace it and somehow like imbue and inject it into his identity. Yeah. Prince of flea bottom. Right. Prince of flea bottom. Right.

You know? Lord of the Tides. Yeah. Well, that's a minute. But yeah. Damon and Luther Assess this gold cloak situation Across a couple scenes in this episode

First, they're out in the streets Kings Landing Behind them in the shots Handing out the alms to the small folks So the air of courtesy of Queen Rainira The contrast in what Damon wanted to focus on And what Renera wanted to focus on Interesting

But great stuff when Damon Just what a time In House of the Dragon for Damon to be advising temperance but the fact that he's like, he really fucked up Luther and Luther's like, my guy, where do you think I learned it? Remember we used to gild people in season one?

I do. Remember when we had to bring in wagon after wagon to put all the severed body parts that you have cut off? I learned this from you. What are you talking about? Oh my God. How's the mood among the Ben? Not great.

Damon wonders. It's not great. They don't have any money. and they are dying in their own shit. So it's not ideal. You mentioned last week we got the email about the anachronistic language. What did you make of, it's been a minute. I was like, wait, what?

It's been a minute? When Luther said that, that's weird. Oh, God. I think it's interesting for Damon to have to confront how far his influence can carry them, right? It was enough to win them the gold cloaks kind of keep them. And if it keeps them, can that keep them safe? I think it's not just the influence. It's like, you know, he's so proud of the fact that, like, it was his guys in the moment, in the crucial moment of taking the throne.

It was his guys and their loyalty to him. Very validating. That, you know, won them the day. Otherwise, they were fucked in that throne room. But he's like, you know, so like, they brought no army. Stupid. Damon's plan. Stupid.

But, like, the gold cloaks showed up for. him and with, you know, with this pledge of loyalty and the North remembers and all the sort of stuff like that. And so I think all of a sudden Damon cares more about them than ever before because they reflect his own sort of glory. Yes. You know, versus Joff who he could give two fucks about. So, you know. Sweet little Jaff. I agree. Sweet little Jop. Yeah. I hope we get a look at Teraxies soon. Because Jop is, as you noted on Talk to Throne's same actor. They didn't age the kid up by six to seven years between seasons. But he looks older.

For sure. Again, it's been a long time since the show was on. Yeah. I would love a look at Teraxie soon. Okay. Yeah. We already talked about the speech that Danae. Jane Arrow would be like pathetic.

A dinky little lizard. Wet from the egg. God. We talked about the speech that Damon makes already. So let's go to the Sept. Incredible scene. Incredible scene between Damon and Ranera, as always. We can have a scene like this if we learn High Valerian.

It's something to think about. Okay. I'll do it. Great. We're probably going to have two full years. Lechiri? Leciri. Yeah.

Leciri? Yeah. We're already almost there. That's exactly. The keyie. Diamond. Ranieres. I gong.

Igan. Igan. Damon's laughter leading him into the scene as he sees Reneira. Okay, well... Will you be able to identify it perfectly if she dreams about it later? That was the laugh that Damon made when he walked into the Sef. I have to be honest, yes. This laugh? Yes. I think so. You're a wonder. It's Damon's the wonder. Great stuff.

More chosen by the gods talk in this scene, right? The High Septum may reject me, but the gods themselves made me queen. They sent me a dragon in the dark stower, says later, if this is their will, then who dares stand in my path? This is a... This is the two references inside this episode about Adam being her sort of talisman, right? They sent me a dragon in the darkest hour. She's talking specifically about Seas Smoke. Yes. And Adam.

And so, like, just establishing what he means and what that dragon means to her. Yeah. And Bailey's like, she just blamed me for her sundying. And he's like oranges and cinnamon. So we go. Hot little niece of mine. Incredible. I've seen what it's like for uncles and nieces to marry.

Speaking of diamond or diamond. On the scenes from a marriage front. Yeah. Okay. So the public argument, because we, the scene goes out of its way to show us as there are other people here. They switch to High Valerian to create their cocoon of privacy so that others will not be able to hear what they're saying.

Two things. One, they then switch back into the common tongue to insult each other. Mm-hmm. to they can be speaking any language they want it's very apparent

that they're arguing at the end of this and so it's just yet again a like, you know, Damon's saying you are more

than this and walking out it's not as bad as Sabbath of Frey challenging Reneer in the hall I loved when Reneer turned and was like

chill and Harwin Week was like bitch Harwin Week is gonna stick I think really good really good yeah he does the

like I've got my hand of my pommel to show you this isn't going to be kosher for long, move down. It's not as bad as Corlis shouting bastards with 40 people around to listen, but people can see that they're fighting and hear what Damon says. This is just like, guys, have your arguments in private. Yeah, it's your old Sansa and John, I beg you. I beg you.

I beg you. I beg you. Damon, switching to the common tongue really reminded me of when Erdogan and Legolas are talking. And then Erdogan goes, that I will die with them. Yes. In English.

And all the people around them are like, what? I say what now? He'll die with you. On this year more than this, Reneira front, our listener Maria wrote in to say, this is exactly the line that Laina says to Damon, Diamond and Pentos during his depression era. That's right. You are more than this, Damon.

The man I married was more than this. Damon obviously could benefit from learning how to deliver his feedback better, but it came out of this episode thinking that Damon is emerging as the only team black player who can pull Reneera off the cliff. Reneera's main, I don't know if that's true, but that's an interesting take. Reneira's main struggle is internal. She's overwhelmed by grief and paranoia, making her decisions erratic and short-sighted. Damon being a chaos agent is extremely comfortable during hard times and manages to focus on real external threats to her rule.

I don't know that I fully agree, but, you know, he can speak to her in a way that other people can't. I think when Alicent makes the observation about Damon and Rennara that she makes to Masaria, it is strategic and it serves Alicin's in that moment, but it is also true. It is also true the we were made to burn together marriage proposal from season one. There is something they share that is distinct. We've talked about this since literally the first episode of the show. Every time they switch into Hivalarian and have these conversations with each other, it does cement the fact that they are in a world of their own making that other people are not a part of. I think this is.

And the fact that they disagree and bicker so often, I mean, Reneer is saying, you know, here you stand out done, that's like real. I'm going to, I'm upset and angry. And so I'm going to say something that I know will hurt you and make you feel. A Marriage. Scenes from a marriage. Yeah. So have very relatable content here.

But, very relatable content. Seams from Marriage is like such, so early. It was like one of the first handful of pods we ever did. You know what? Sometimes just from the word go. Yeah. You know your end game. You know this magic.

But I, you know, the fact that they disagree that they have had many periods of real strife and turmoil, the fact that in this episode there's so much tension, all of that, we have enough reason to believe they'll still work their way back to each other. Yeah. This is why the Raina element is so huge right now. If Rainier learns about that, does it fracture something in a way that even these two can't work their way back from? That has to be on our minds at this point in the story. Reneera is in this cocoon not only of Hyde Valerian, but of doom.

A cocoon and doom. The doom cocoon cocoon. That's not the cocoon you want to be in. Not too late to put that in the dooms day. Advertising. Who says it? A doom cocoon. I guess it probably has to be one of the X-Men,

based on how X-Men-centric the trailer was, right? You know who I got most excited to see in the Doomsday trailer? Tell me. I don't, Shang-Chi. Oh, yeah, me too. I was just like, yeah. It's been so long. I know.

So long, yeah. As I texted you. It's so long. Heart palpitations when the countdown clock popped up at the end of the trailer, and it said four months. I was like, I know it's at 27 days or something, but four months, I ask you how. I guess on the one hand, yes, on the other hand, like, I feel like there's way less prep we have to do for Avengers Dune Day.

It's less that and more just, I feel my life melting away and I'm struggling. Oh, that's my June cocoon. I feel my life melting away. This week's been a real doom cocoon if you think about it. It really adds. Something stirs against me. Something crouched, something formless. I feel the dread of it. Reneera in this scene, us to each other many times in recent days as we tried to remain afloat. So we talked about this, of course, on Sunday, but this is a great beat for Renera,

the look on Emma's face. Reneera is right. Damon's like, you hear the wind, you think it's an omen. Reneer is right. This will soon be revealed to them, the Ormond plot. Something very real has worked its way

into the seat of power that Reneera thinks that she has claimed, right? Ormond is there inside of the city with this plot. The gold cloaks are about to be at the feast for traders, etc. Okay. But even though Reneer is right, and that means that the paranoia is not unfounded, there is still this question of when does the paranoia sprawl and grow and morph into something

that cannot be contained for Runeira. Emma Darcy has been talking about this every week on the inside the episodes at the end, the obsession with legitimacy and the creeping paranoia. The trust is so thin for Team Black. There are, as we tracked with Orwhile and Masaria and Damon, secrets mounting. Any one thing right now feels like a tip. This is when you lean on Sabbath affray. This is when you make bonds that last with Sabbath of Frey.

So what I think about. Oh, the white worm. Oh, yes. Is it always like this? I'm going to work on my impressions for both of them. I'll just like it back to you with something more. Good stuff. Feast for Traders.

This is sick. This is fantastic. This looked amazing. I loved this. I'm just going to say that I'm sad that. hot Luther Largent is already dead. But having a schedule, we won't say that the context for the death.

Heterochromia hot guy is alive. Feeling good about that. So, you know. Feeling good about that. When God closes the door, he opens a window, you know what I mean? And if the gods have chosen this podcast, who would dare stand in our path on the hot guys in the show front?

Heterochromia high tower guy. Is that character of a name? Heterochromia high tower guy? Pigeon daddy. Pidge and daddy. Yes. The price of our humiliation, we should have burned them when we had the chance when he presents the coin. And then Damon finds a feast for traders.

Do you agree with me that the score sounded very winds of wintry, the organ on it? Yeah, I think so. I don't have the ear for that that you do. No, I don't have the ear for that. But I think, I will just say the score, I was like something crazy is about to happen. That's what it made me feel. There was also elsewhere in the episode when Alice is cradling Eamond and humming, and then we cut into following Orwell.

Oh, yeah, and you can hear that's still a humming. And that's very windy. A lot of gold cloaks are dead, so that's tough. So I don't want to say too much here, but we'll just say there's a similar tableau in the books. Very different context. You think that means we're not getting that? I don't know. Okay.

I don't want to presume. Can I read this a quote? Elsewhere, his scouts came across a ghastly tableau where armored corpses sat beneath the trees in rotting raiment in a grotesque mockery of a feast. So were they like, that's a cool idea we're going to do it somewhere else? In the concept art for this. Yeah. It's a feast for traitors with the compliments of King Darren was like part of the original idea they had for the scene. And then I guess they were like, that's a lot of fake blood to put on the whole.

while I'm tired. Let's just keep it snappy. About on bed and broken, say it once. You don't have to repeat it. Come on, Maria. Yeah. Great stuff. Anything else before we get to the book,

Spoilers? I think we did it. If you don't want to hear the book spoilers, this is where we leave you, and we will see you on Sunday night for Talk to Thrones on episode six. Okay. The Butcher's ball setup is pretty great.

Here it comes. It has to be next week. There's only three episodes left in the season. I would be astonished. This felt like the Kristen dies next week episode, right? In the BTS, they called his seven-centric speech the final prayer for these boys. So how quickly into next week's episode does he die? I feel like it'll be the closing set piece of the episode that will build because there's still got to be more marching.

I don't know. Even I was like, oh, did they sub in the caltrop and play? Like, are they going to do any of the archers from the woods still as he tries to mount this final? fight or do we have any more build-up or is it just... We don't have... Like, do we know any archers? I guess it doesn't matter. I guess it doesn't matter.

I just... Those river men are out there waiting out. I just miss all the various people on the Riverland team. I know. We could have had been here. Just saying. This is what our listener, Andy wrote. Is Sir Kristen Cole the Nate Jacobs of Hals of the Dragon?

He doesn't have a ton to do in season three except die, I guess. And it's like, in season one, this guy was the absolute worst piece of diabolical shit ever put on green. Never forget. So, you know, it's, he's just wandering around waiting to die. It feels a little protracted. I agree. You know, it has to be next week. I almost think it should have been done earlier. I think so, too. At the beginning of the season when we were breaking down the trailers, I think at certain points we both thought maybe Butcher's Ball could even be episode seven, a penultimate heading into Tumbleton, and wanting Kristen around a little longer. While I have loved the Kristen and Gawain scenes, there has been a...

to them undeniably that it's like for Freddie Fox that he gets to now depart onto his next plot line yeah yeah but yes and they will sing songs about it I'm just like okay but it's happening it's happening we're getting Butcher's ball next week great stuff um I also like he's killing him so is it I think it's Roddy Roddy's gonna kill him I think then yeah loose my wolves and me on the hunt and we will bring him down I've gone to die for the dragon queen they want to prime us inside this episode for that character specifically like remind us that characters in the show basically before he kills Kristen. Okay. But here's the question now that the moment has actually come. We're on the brink of this. We got excited for like, okay, they didn't do honey. We didn't see fish feet. If Butcher's ball is a bigger deal, it will be worth it. How to thread the needle between making Butchers ball a bigger deal, but still giving Kristen the no songs about how brave you died. That's a great question. I'm like a little unsure how to pull that off. if there are skirmishes leading up to it in some degree, I don't know. Yeah.

I actually don't know. I'm also a little worried because like these moments in fire and blood that like hinge on like one great line. Like George didn't have to write a whole scene. He just wrote one great line. It's like our cloaks are gold no matter how you turn them. And then it's just sort of like and then they like almost feel like they can't use the line. You know what I mean? Like I'm just.

Yeah. If we got songs in this episode because we're not getting the iconic line next week, I will actually be devastated and you will have to hold me and cradle me as I saw. We're very lucky we got we've come to die for the dragon queen. But like, like, blood and cheese, there was so much like blood and cheese, blood and cheese. And it just like did not land the way that we wanted it to. Gullet also like didn't quite, you know what I mean? Like these big sort of like someone's going to die moments aren't hitting the same that they did on

Thrones. And it's like almost all the other stuff that's really sort of like doing it. You're right. And I, I, I, I worry that they're going to feel that they have to, that the magic of that book moment of Kristen, you didn't get the glory at the end, like, won't feel like cinema enough as a TV moment, even though it's such an incredible character end. Because Butchers Ball, though like the massacre of Butcher's Ball, it's after, they kill Kristen. And then they kill everyone. And then everyone else dies. Are they going to kill Chris? There's only like five guys left. Yeah. And also, like you said, like, we don't know. We barely know anyone else.

We don't know them. Yeah, there's like the one other guy who, like, has been in a couple scenes with Kristen and going to be. Shamed head. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not going to really care if he dies. I don't know him. Gwayne's gone. Like, I thought Butchersball was going to be Gwain and Kristen and I was going to be, like, pretty invested.

But with Gwain gone, I'm like a little less. Yes. That said, more excited than ever. We both loved the email we got last week about does Gawain sub into the Caltrop's plot? Dude, they had Gawain and his army walk through a field of caltrops? Like, I feel like he's now going to be like, ooh, you know what we should call our band of conspirators? Caltrops. That's really likely now.

When he's like, you know, back in season three. When I was a horse with Kristen Cole. A horse. A horse. I think I told you that I saw an interview where the cast was asked to give three. words of advice. Maybe four was an advice. And you told me that Olivia was like the window, right?

Close that window. Both Freddie and Fabian, they were in the same interview together. We're like, stay on that horse. Or like, what choice did they have to stay on that horse? The horse was like collapsed from underneath them. But yeah, then they have to charge through the bog. But I think it has to be related to this horse moment. Agreed.

A horse? I was wondering too on the continuing to track theories from last week because the book spoiler section last week had so many great theories in it you introduced the idea Darren potentially poisoning Ormans because we got the email about Ormonds

Oh Pomander And you introduced the Darren possibility Very enticing What about Gawain? What about together? What if Gawain spares Darren from having to do that and does it. I'm really excited to see Gwain and Darren together.

What is that dynamic going to be like? Can't wait. Speaking of interesting dynamics, here's another version of my butcher's ball question that I just asked you. On the aim and egg on front, I'm in a loss here. How is the show going to pay off their mutual obsession with each other given that they don't,

their plot lines are not bringing them back to each other? They'll never see each other again. And certainly not decisively. Are they going to introduce kind of a, oh, we didn't know that Reneer and Allison shared these moments version of that for them? That wouldn't. I feel like it's all going to, and maybe in this episode, Agon's like, go ahead, hire the ship. So like maybe it's already over for Agon. He's like, I got to find Amid thing.

Okay. That doesn't feel like so satisfying to me. But I don't know. I mean, they both have iconic, like, final stretches of stories. So I don't want anything to change about God's eye with Amund and Alice and Damon. Which one of them is dressing up as a nun to see the other. It's Amid. Oh my God.

Maybe I'll have a dream combo. And Helena can be there. I feel like that's actually the answer. Okay. That actually is probably what's going to happen. All the kids are going to hang out in a dream. Well, because it feels like there's going to be a little bit more progress for Aman than for Egon. Yeah.

So maybe Aymond does get to commune with Egon in the dream in a way that allows him to move forward. And Egon doesn't get that. And that's part of why he is like. I'm going to jump off my maimed dragon and shatter my body further. We got a really interesting email from a listener who said they think they're trying to make Agon look like a dragon. Like with the way his burned makeup is looking that he's like, you know, because like sunfire and Agon and their sort of maimedness is supposed to be like an interesting thing. I don't know. Why do you think Helena's going out that window?

Well, and also, what role does the bug stuff play? I know, the poison bug stuff? Yeah. I mean, they can't, they've given us too much window set up now to change the window outcome. Maybe, but like... Or do you think they're just like, we're giving you the window? Yeah, we're giving you the window now, so we don't, because we're not going to give the window to you later. Does Helena use the poison?

I just don't think she would kill herself. Because if she's like... I always thought that. until George's blog post. Oh. That was the first time that I was like. You think that's what he thinks that's the issue? I don't want to like,

I don't want this to be apocryphal and for me to misremember this, but I feel like he was in that blog post was kind of like, if they don't have Maylor and the Bitterbridge death and all these extra sources of grief, why would Helena kill herself?

Maybe that's not right. But I feel like he heavily implied that it was, in fact, suicide. But maybe he just met, First of all, maybe he didn't write that, and I don't remember. Right. But maybe he just meant, frankly, enough to keep that possibility plausibly alive in the story as one of the sources of narrative and story that someone could say. All right.

All right. In Ryan's outline for season three, Helena still kills herself for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen. But like, because Bitter Bridge is missing. But I just, I mean, like, I don't know how when or how or how. why if the outline has changed since then, but I feel like there's enough fresh horror no question in this season for like Helena to kill herself. The thing that I wonder about is like, I don't think she would kill herself with the baby still inside of her because of her whole like

no living creature will be harmed sort of thing. But I feel like if something were to happen to the baby, if she miscarries or, you know, whatever, I could see her killing herself in that instance. If something happens to Jehara, which would be a timeline, a major timeline tweak given that... I just don't think a pregnant Helena is killing herself. I agree.

And I could be wrong, but like, it will need some greater explanation for me to buy that. Yes, I'm with you. Will there be like a poisoning that leads to some altered state? But like her fragile, her mind is quite on the verge. Will a dream?

You know, because I, so there is the, on the, and this was not, I think we talked about this a lot at the end of season two, the most perfectly executed examination of like destiny and free will. But what Helena said to Eamond about it wouldn't change a thing. We talked about the possibility at the time of her, if I remember correctly, of like, what does Helena seen about her own future? And when maybe they're like, we talked to this season, oh, I don't want to be in this room. Has Helena seen her own death? And, you know, when we talk about these themes, like, I'm always like, break through, push. But in Thrones, for sure, one of George's, you know, main areas of interest is self-fulfilling prophecies and maybe leading to an outcome that you sought to avoid. I don't know that we have enough time for that to feel like it totally lands.

If something like that happens here, only three episodes left in the season and that Olivia Cook quote certainly makes it seem like Helena's death as this season. So does that George blog post? Is it finale? I wonder if Butcher's Wall is next week, Helena is episode 7 and Tumbledon is the finale. Like a big, big thing. Yeah. Every time. But I don't know.

I mean, there's a lot that has to happen still. I don't want, I'm really, I'm so attached to Helena. I'm like really dreading this. It's going to be devastating. I guess there's also they could use the butterfly poison stuff like on someone else to try to escape again. Maybe that's in the mix. Can someone get that to Gawain to use on Ormond? Is there time for that?

In the Pommander? Crush up those. Yeah. I don't know. Nightshade? The main thing that I wanted to make sure was in here, you already had. Which is bail of viving with Adam when like... Wrong brother. Wrong brother.

But like... Bail and Allen end up together. Bail and Allen end up together. But wrong uncle, we should say. Do you think this would cause friction between Adam and Alan? Alan. Canonically, no friction between Adam and Alan, beloved brothers loyal to each other, to the bitter end. But like, maybe? Adam seems like he has a soft spot for Bella. For sure. You know, and I don't know what that means with Alan, you know? Maybe there's a real spark here. And then after Adam's death, their mutual mourning brings Bella and Alan together. Oh, great sex. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. There's also like, You know, with Bail, and this falls into the larger thing we've been asking of, like, how much time is there at the end of this series for Thing X, Thing X being like literally everything after Renera and Egon are killed? Yeah.

Among those, this is like how the business of the realm is unfolding. There's a lot of, who are we going to marry Raina and Baila off to, right? And Bala, in the spirit of rebellion and Alan, just like, we're going to do what we want. Yeah. So I don't know. I think there could still be room for a real mutual attraction between Bela and Adam in the short term and then something developing later with. I'll be married off likely enough to some ancient self-regarding Lord and Pike with an afforded gold to pay Reneer is dead. Well, you know, the gray joys are going to be on that list of what if we married you to family to family X. So there you go. Let's see. God's eye set up with Reneera wanting Damon to find Vagar. And Damon's like, I'll do that later.

I felt like that was a nice tease for season three. That was pretty good. What else? Shepard. Oh, yeah. Okay. So our listener wrote in with a cat theory. Only cats. Frank wrote. Once again, you have my attention. Who has a better story than Cat of Tumbledon? Oh, thought you meant cat like the cats in the Red Keep? Back out.

The Shepherd is just five cats stacked. You really? I was really. really, like, excited to fire the email. Five cats in a church go. And they think he's missing an arm, but this cat just pulled the paw back because it's a cat. But no, you mean? Hugh's wife. K-A-T.

Who I'm less interested in, but I'll allow it. Go on. Assuming that she survives Tumble 2, who among the common folk would have more reason to hate dragons than Reneera specifically? She's been around for a couple seasons, I guess. And while she's familiar, there's something that is obviously leading to this change at this point, but it doesn't take too many steps to get her there. The war has already taken her only child. The rest of her family will likely all be dead due to the war in general and probably directly by Dragonfire. If she survives, she would easily end up disfigured and it keeps with the theme of the show that contributors to fire and blood keep giving men credit for things that

women do. Interesting. I think this would be over-indexing on our investment, on our perceived investment in a cat. But not our cats. If it's cats of the sea, we're listening. Oh, God. Great stuff. stuff. This is what I needed this week. It really was. Anything else? I think your note here about the Cats Pogtaker, making it out of the gods eye, this might not make it out of the bedroom is really funny. Oh, God. I think that's it for book spoiler look-ahead stuff. Fantastic. We're more than halfway through the season. I'm upset. Only three episodes left. And then only eight episodes left next season. There's a lot of story left. I'm...

out of the Seven Kingdom many seasons to come. I will take 13, 14, 17, however many they want to do. Okay, great. I'll take them all. All right. Thank you to the bad babies. And thank you to our Queens Guard. Carlos, Scott, Jacob, Juna, Jomey.

Was anyone else here today? That's who I saw. I ran right past the control room in a panic to sit down in here. I do apologize. Thank you to the whole squad. Everyone's the best. please join us in San Diego if you will be there. Come to Whiskey Girl.

Whiskey Girl on Thursday night from the meetup, no pass needed. Come to our panel with the Midnight Boys Pew Poo, Saturday morning. Pass required. We'd love to see you there. And then we'll see you on Sunday night when we are back in Los Angeles. Oh, yeah. For Talk the Thrones on episode six of House of the Dragon. And the plan right now, by the way, is for us to go live for the Talk the Thrones finale.

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