House of R - ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson are excited to give you all of their thoughts on the newest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’! They start off by recounting the ambitions of each of our characters currently, then dissect the complex scene between Ormund and Daeron, and speculate what we might see in the future from Alys and Aemond in Harrenhal. (00:00) Intro (00:56) CR’s recap (6:19) Favorite moment of the episode (9:41) What does everyone want? (20:48) Ormund’s story of Meria Martell (26:01) The Green Army Vs. the Black Army (30:44) Criston Cole reveals his true desires (35:40) The Alicent-Mysaria-Rhaenyra situation (37:47) The Murder of the gold cloaks (42:31) Halaena’s own moment (47:05) Alys and Aemond’s growing relationship (54:00) Rhaenyra and Joffrey (55:49) Final thoughts Hosts: Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Carlos Chiriboga, and Jamie Yukich Social: Jomi Adeniran Set Production: Jonathan Ratliff and Gitu Mehra Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows.

Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. and welcome to Talk the Thrones. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined as always by Joanna Robinson and a Darren Tergarian coin collector.

It's Mallory Rubin. She would. We are here to break down the fifth episode of the third season of House of the Dragon right after this. You can check out Mal and Joe going deep on this episode

on House of R on Tuesday. Andy and I will casually and superficially chat about it on Monday on the watch. We're going to get into this episode with the recap. I'm excited. Right after that.

Whether life serves you an ace or an unexpected backhand, the high-protein yogurt, Oikos Pro, is there to feed your strength and help you turn every challenge into a smash. Oikos Pro helps build strong muscles and support muscle recovery with high protein and contains no added sugar. Because true strength isn't about being able to take the hits. It's about being able to bounce back. Oikos Pro, feed your strength.

Visit oikos.ca for more details. The first ever all-electric 2026 Subaru Trail Seeker is the EV for the Trail Obsessed. With up to 444 kilometers on a full charge and DC fast charging from 10 to 80% in about 30 minutes in ideal conditions. Plus, ample ground clearance and symmetrical all-wheel drive make the 2026 Trail Seeker the most capable EV Subaru has ever built. Test drive it at your local Subaru deal. or visit Subaru.ca. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man.

This July, we're faced with a threat. I can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Talk to Banner?

I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day. In theaters, July 31st. Feeling any unusual pressure today after Joanna's 10 out of 10 No Notes performance? This has been a time of the ringer where people are trying out for other people's gigs. And it's really exciting. You know? Yeah, you can send in the BS chair.

Exactly. So we'll see how everything shakes out and then you'll answer your question. No, you were amazing. All the CR cosplay was very, very touching. Look, this episode felt a little bit more like jumping. jumping into a Ken Burns documentary midway through for me and then telling myself that I would pick things up on the fly. We've got the Black Align, Starks trying to forge a river to get to Tumbleton.

What river? Blackwater Rush. Wouldn't you like to know? Yeah. I was going to say that. The problem is Kristen Cole's band of Raiders with Born to Lose tattoos are doing the guerrilla warfare thing up and down the countryside. In Harenhall, various groups of men keep showing up looking for Aymann and Alice.

Rivers keeps telling them, Amid, who? And then they don't leave. She lets the castle walls do the talking. Also haunted, Amand, who is in some room somewhere in Haran Hall, having bad dreams that he knows her memories, while Alice gives him the old, if I inflict the pain, baby, only I can comfort you,

which is the first time the Afghan wigs have been referenced on our podcast. Back at Kings Landing, it's time for, in the words of Jonah Hill and knocked up, another shmish-mortion on this. on the show, Dr. Orwell with the plan B. This time for Helena, who is with child at absolutely the wrong moment. But Helena is listening to Papa Don't preach in her room, and she's keeping the baby.

What I didn't expect was for Misario to be creeping on this situation, catching Allison with the potion almost on her person, leaving Allie no choice but to down the elixir herself. Mother knows best. In the C-suite, Renira is dealing with her usual. band of band of bothers including the phrase who were

mad about the Starks crossing the twins mad about being denied Her and all which was promised to them. You know,

they have lots of things that they're mad about then. She says, do you let them cross the twins? In exchange for

Heronaut they didn't get. She got dragon riders who can't find Amon's dragon, a master of

coin who is a master of gossip, a master of whispers who believes in health care for all and a brother lover

who believes in avenging the deaths of some gold cloaks found dead in flea bottom, even at the cost of publicly defying his queen. I got to say, man, Kristen Cole needs to stop listening to the Smiths. He is out there in the beautiful sunshine with his boys, the lads.

They're burning up opposing camps and destroying river passages. Wayne is offering of a plum job. Sounded wonderful, honestly. Signed me up. And what more could he want? A noble death, apparently. That's what he wants. He heard that word serve and he said, no, thank you.

I'm out. The Cole crew is chasing all over trying to win an unwinnable battle as they hope and pray that Amon comes to their rescue. But it seems like Kristen views this struggle is more than just green versus black. It's halves and have-nots. And he thinks he's been sentenced to death by a power greater than the Targaryans. Right? Kind of, right? I mean, I was waiting for you to comment on the leeches being on the thighs this time instead of on Gendry's dick.

I've already gotten that in text format, so it's lovely to hear it into a microphone. While Kristen accepts his fate, Damon thinks he can root out and rest if he just cracks enough heads. Gold cloaks keep getting got, and it looks like this insurgency is being funded by Ormond Hightower, who continues to tutor Darren T in a semi-creepy way. All this is... Semi-creepreepy? Well, you know... You're just, you're remaining patient as you observe more.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. You're open. We're waiting for all the results to come in. Ever the team green lawyers. Sorry for not calling this election like an hour afterwards. All this is happening while the actual king.

of the realm is still alive and well. Actually, how dare you? You really are Team Green. Outrageous. They didn't do the proper process of unseating him. Am I an Agonne truther? Perhaps. He is wandering the woods with Laris,

pining after his not dead dragon, and perhaps taking the wrong lessons from Laris' pep talk. When the duo get back to the Riverman camp, they meet up with the Lannister who wasn't beheaded. And as they plot their escape, Agon is discovered by the camp bully. but Agon still has that dog in him

and winds up stabbing the dude to death much of the bemused chagrin of Laris. And that was Jason Lannister. No, so close. Tyler. Tyler. Okay, Jason got his head gone. Yeah, yeah.

Very close. Here's where we end things. Allison and Helena try to escape, get caught, try to escape again, only to get trapped in a secret passage. Damon tortures the high tower plot out of a flea bottom denzil only to find out that the rebellion has taken

most of his beloved gold cloaks. Kristen gives a St. Crispin's Day speech Amen and Allison fanfic is being written and Reneera is spinning out as the line between friend and foe grows blurry Oh, very good We back

Thank you guys Sam Hello Hello Fun episode I felt like I was just saying Before we started recording

This was like the best possible version of a season two episode Oh we're marching We're marching Yeah We're on their way Just wait till I get there What did you think of the episode

I really liked it It did feel like a midseason episode but I think what it has, the advantage it has over season two is that they've done, first of all, characters are spread across the map, so we're sort of hopping back and forth between people. And they've done a pretty good job of installing characters that we care about at each location so that when we hop around, we're invested. Thailand Lannister lives.

That was, you know, I counted him out. Mallory was faithful to him. I believe on this show we were like, that guy is sincerely dead and so inessential that we didn't see his death. Mallory from the beginning was like, no way Tyler Lannister is dead. And to be fair, the book supports her claim, but it's an adaptation.

I didn't know what was going on. But he lives. What do you make of his disguise? He's there in like Velvets. How do you feel about his incognito Tyler Minster move? He looks like a very rich, very fine lord, and I continue to think that almost everyone in the show could benefit from better disguises, though.

Allison traded a seven-pointed star necklace for the maid garb. And what good did it do? They got four paces before Masari about that. Yeah. I got to say, fool me once. Shame on me, but like, it's a shame on you. But like, Allison just being like, God, I can't believe I've been betrayed by the staff at this castle for the ninth time. I wanted to start.

Well, Mel, what did you think of the episode? I really enjoyed it. I think the season's been great so far. And I think that the fourth and fifth episodes did feel different than the first three in terms of the spreading of the map, the number of characters, the moving across the board compared to these, like, massive, grand declarations and set pieces. But in a way that I think feels like welcome and nice and probably in the middle of the season necessary, I feel really confident that we're setting up for a strong finish year. Guys, this episode featured dozens and dozens and dozens of cats. The cats are here in the Red Keep. Alan's plan put into action immediately.

Has Phoebe seen the episode? No, she has a rat. I'll be receiving a text for Phoebe about the cats. So that was very welcome. And I think just in general, you know, Chris, I know in a second here you want to talk about the character's sense. sets, right? And I think that thematically across those sets, the assessment inside of this episode, the study of balance of self-awareness and blame, right? When are you pointing the finger and blaming someone else? When do you have any ability to look internally and see what accountability and culpability you bear? But also, when is the person in the scene, in the storyline with you speaking the truth to you? And then are you capable of receiving it? Like, who is being coddled, who is hearing a hard truth, who is maybe in a Castle where they are receiving a hard truth via slightly tweaked trauma dreams and then also being coddled and cradled in the fetal position whispering mother. It's all happening. So that's

very satisfying. Yeah. But I'm most excited that you didn't miss a big Kristen Cole episode. You know, we got a little Chrissy in Gawain last week. But I think if you had missed this one, which had far and away the most Kristen Gawain action of the season so far, it would have been a tragedy of epic proportion. So what's it like to be back? What's like to be back with your boys? Do you think they... My voice? Come on. Yeah.

Do you think when they showed up in their matching war paint, do you think they put that on each other, sort of like face off waterfall? There's absolutely no question. And I'm just going to say, do we all have other cons immediately after this? Yes. Should we do it anyway for the bit for social? Okay. Maybe.

I would probably appreciate my makeup. I haven't imagined. Yeah, I wanted to ask if we could put together these characters and sort of define what they're going after, their objectives, their dreams, their hopes, their wants. Because in a similar way that we did the where is everybody a couple of weeks ago, I kind of wanted to do

a check-in on like, where are they in their character arcs? How is everybody? How is everybody? Exactly. Because I think you've got Renira, who's looking for legitimate, and at any moment, jump in, debate me, debate me cowards. Just let me know what I got wrong. But you've got Rineera who ultimately wants

legitimacy and respect. Damon wants to dominate. looking for dominance. Allison seems to want to escape in anonymity. She's like sort of completely shorn herself of royal fashions, you know, and it's so much so that she's dressing up like, you know, like a maid at the very end. Kristen Cole perhaps wants the same as Allison, but in a more final way. Alice, textually, she wants heron haul, but I think there's something greater than

that she wants here. And I've yet to totally understand that, but I also find her quite a beguile. character. Amon, if he wants to sleep per chance to dream. I don't think he wants those dreams. I think he is in kind of like a limbo right now and what, you know, he's expressing some guilt, I guess, or at least some fear that his...

He's going through Harron Hall Therapy. Yeah, exactly. Just like Damon did. Just like Damon did, right. Agon wants vengeance. Laris is maybe the perfect character for this world because he's flexible. That Laris scene was incredible.

The look of that, but also his exasperation when he's just like, oh. You just found him right here. Right here. Now what. Ormond wants power by proxy. Baila and Adam won acknowledgement. Darren, we don't know yet.

Darren, and Darren is a cool character because as Ormond is doing all of this grooming, Darren is just like, this is a little weird. And I don't know exactly where I stand here. He's like, is Uncle Gwain at Hamilton yet? Where's Uncle Gwyn? And then within this, I think one of the cool things about the show this season is that there are a bunch of pairs of characters, right? So you've got Reneer and Damon together, Allison and Reneer together, Amon and Alice together, in some ways, Damon and Alice together earlier in the season.

Hugh and Ulf, Laris and Agon, Kristen and Gwain, Orman and Darren, and each pair, they have some common ground. But within those pairs, there are schisms. Within those pairs, there are, like, fractures and fault lines where you can see, like, well, Damon and Reneer ultimately want the same thing, and when they're speaking Hivalarian to each other, it seems like they're in a flow state about it. But then Damon pulls out of, well, I don't know if they're ever pulling out in the Tarks pulls out of a Hive Larian back into the common tongue just to be like, let me insult you for everybody in the Sapto can understand me to hear.

Yes. Yeah. And then there are. Right after she was like, oh, the mighty Damon Targaryen, they sing songs about you. What's going on with you? Yeah. Delicious. Well, I also like the sort of like the way that some of these characters are paired just.

based on like theme where you could pair Reneira and Ormond together in some ways because it's what she is sort of saying she wants Ormond is actually doing. And was that patriarchy or is that a willingness to just be? He knows the PR game. He wins. Is it the advantage of being the opposite, the opposition and the rebel or the usurper? Like, what is it? To a certain degree, but it's a war of optics. I mean, and this is what it's always been from the beginning when they crowned Aigon and they're like he's got

the crown, he's got the sept, he's got all these like hom, he's got the throne. Like, he's got the sword, he's got everything. He's got what we understand a king to be. And for Ormond to slap Darren's face on the coin, which is not even what they do in Westeros, is like, I'm winning the branding game. I'm not only, you know, having my agents sneak around and murder cops in King's Landing, but like I'm paying them with coin that's got Darren's face on it. And so I'm also getting the message out while I'm doing it. And on that front, on that big Ormond orchestrated Feast for Traders moment that ends the episode, like we've been tracking sort of like how much this season of House of the Dragon feels like is leaning a bit more into the original Thrones tone.

And I think this sort of like almost camp shock and horror of that scene, which is taken from elsewhere in fireblood, there's like a different tableau that that is reminiscent of that. But like those kinds of like it's creepy and it's spooky, but it's like fun and shocking and a great way to end the episode. And the Ramin Javadi score is giving us those like winds of winter organs. And it's just sort of like you're like, this feels like Thrones versus something like blood and cheese last season which just felt like bleak. This is bleak, obviously, to see a bunch of guys with their guts out on the table. But like the theater of it is just like. for sure.

Kind of amazing. So. I think that the commonalities and shared attention or divides inside of those character sets is is super interesting. But like the parallels across character sets was the most satisfying part of the stuff. So to me like, so the coins, stick with the coins for a second. One side is lamenting the empty coffers that they've arrived to find. Has no money to run, even attempt to run the realm, has to go beg their nominal devoted

houses and then be on the receiving line of a beggar with a tin cup, a dig last episode, right? Ormond has so much money, so many resources, so much gold at his disposal, he can mint his own declaration of intent, right? That is a notable distinction in circumstances. I was thinking back to something like Reniro when she heard about Tumbledin in the first place after the fake Darren reveal, the line was like, my arm is long. Like, he thinks he can get away with this. My arm is long. Whose arm is actually long currently? Ormond has reached into King's Landing through. And this was the casting of the actor

with the two different colored eyes, who is the one sending the scrolls to Ormond. We recognize him. That's who Allison initially before Sir Frederick spelled the way it was, went to on the battlements to let Roneira in. So the idea of being told to put your swords down. It's like, what is the purpose? What is the fight?

What have you done with those people? Where's your army? Ormott has put them back to use. also, by the way, that guy knows what Allison did, which seems like very perilous for her. So there's that. I think the idea of strength was another one across Ormond and Reneira. Because you had Damon, and Reneer are not on the same page about this. I think what you identified about legitimacy is the crucial thing for Reneera, as is the

continued mounting paranoia, which I think we should circle back to. But Damon says you're the queen of dragons, your strength is your legitimacy. Ormond, who hates the Targaryans, who can't stop talking shit about dragons, acknowledges that they do in fact possess strength. That's why we'll talk about the Mariamartel stuff later. He's like, I really remark her and I revere her because she could challenge that strength. So he's not discounting they have strength. He's like, I can combat it.

Can I say on the other hand, though, so they're playing this chess-like games of Oz, which is from the book, which is like a really fun, cool thing that they've never done on Thrones before. They're like, we took this special game that George R. Martin invented. We're putting it on the screen. but there's like certain pieces that you have at a game of Savas. And Darren wins with a dragon. Yes. Like that and so it's like Ormond.

Orman didn't see, well, losing the game. He's a thin skinned as going on. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But like he wins. Get your arms off. He wins with a dragon move, which just means that Ormond didn't see this dragon move on the table. So like on the one hand, he is espousing that he acknowledges the strength of the Targaryans.

But the other hand, as we've seen, he, he, He doesn't fully understand. Or appreciate it, yeah. What a dragon strength is, and specifically as it comes to Darren, his, like, dragon. The shot specifically of their hands meeting on the dragon piece at the same time. This season's really been nailing some of the symbolism. It's not always subtle, but I do think it is conveying something very effective. So Darren is, like, startled reaches for it to say we can start over.

Yeah, yeah. Ormond reaches for it. Their hand, who can control the dragon? Ormond has literally chained Darren's dragon to Sarian in the sept in Tumbled him. the shot of Alice of when Amund wakes up and he reaches for the dagger of prophecy and Alice just tosses it across the floor in Heron. I was like, this is one of the quietest little best details that we've gotten so far. Egon is carrying around a scale, a dragon's scale, and he's lamenting and he's mourning. Now is what Egon does good or wise when he stabs Janos with it?

No, does it feel notable that he does that with a symbol of his dragon power? I think so, right? And on that like across character sets across duo's front, Agon and Aymond are doing the exact same thing in this episode. They're both blaming the other for their ills. Mother always liked him best. Incredible. I mean, incredible Viseras Daman comp there too with the mother loved you besting. But like, you know, they're both a little right and a little wrong because they both did horrible things to each other.

They also both bear a lot of blame for the atrocities that they have unleashed on the world. So it was a very fun episode in terms of those parents. Yeah. I thought one of the things that was really cool about this episode, episode was at his best, I think George R. Martin is really good at taking historical moments or phenomenons from our world and translating them into a fantasy world to show them back to us. Yes. And the idea of an insurgency and almost like the power of an insurgency.

So you can do things that the people who are actually in power can't do. There's a degree of care. Like, you can kind of play with house money. And in this way, like, Reneira is so concerned with how she's going to be perceived. You mentioned optics before she, you know, every time she's just like, well, do this. Everybody's like, well, then everybody's going to say this. And she's like, God damn it. Ormond is good at being like, I'm going to forgive.

I'm going to punish my soldier for attacking a woman. Then kill that woman's husband or brother or whatever, like in front of Darren to show him what real strength is. Make Darren kill him. And it doesn't even really feel like that's going to affect my like cue rating one way or the other. He's going to play into the fact that Rainira is essentially broke. And he can go around and be like, hey, if we have a problem, go cut down more trees all the way, all the way. You know, he's not the king.

Nobody's going to get mad at him, like in the way that they'll get mad at Renira. So I really love the way that they're using. He's specifically going after all of her little, like, flaws. Every hole in her armor, he's like poking at. And I obviously will probably drive her a bit nuts as she is a Targaryen. Can I, I won't defend Targaryens against the madness accusation again. But can I talk about this Maria Martel story that Ormond gives to Darren? This was the other cool thing was, you know, this show sometimes nods to the show that will come.

But this was a moment where I felt like they were telling us something about the story or watching by going into the history of the realm, but also kind of telling us a little bit about what will happen down the line. And I loved this moment. I also felt like putting Darren on the coin was Ormond kind of being like, tell Cersie it was me. You know, I want Cursi to know it was me. It's like he knows that they know where Darren is and who he's with. You know, so anyway, please tell me a little bit about this story. Well, I just think it's, it feeds into what you're talking about, like, I was thinking about when we were watching Andor and you and I were talking about, like, the French resistance homer we were doing and, like, the, so for Dorn, this is sort of like,

nobody can conquer Russia sort of story, the sort of Napoleonic winter campaign story in a couple of ways, because there's all this sand expanse that you have to get across in the way that, like, Napoleon's army is like, it's cold and we don't know what we're starving, we can't get there, and Hitler did the same thing. It's like, this is a reason why Dorn is an independent kingdom. It's come up a couple times this season. That's part of the reason why. But also, Miriam Martel as this canny strategist who, when during Aegon's conquest, when they sent a dragon down to intimidate her, she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, sure, no problem. And when they invade bodily, all the castles are empty. And they're like, you take it. You take dorn. That's fine. And then once the dragon leaves,

and it's just the Targaryan loyalist there, the Martel's come up out of the sand, not literally, but kind of, and just take back their castles. You know, so the way that Ormond was like, oh, Damon, you're going to take Darren and I, I'm going to go home? Sure, no problem. Like, that's a real Miriamartel move. And then they also killed a dragon and Agon's favorite hottest sister wife, you know? And so, like, this is the legacy of Dorn, is that they brought down one of the original

conquering dragons and dragon writers of Agon's conquest. And it's part of why they were able to stay independent and negotiate with. with the dragon house back and forth for so long. So this idea of like this woman who used her brain to outsmart the, by being outgunned but outwitted the dragons and just sort of like for Ormond to look at Dorn and say these are the people who said you have a dragon, I don't give a shit. And I'll figure it out anyway. That's no wonder.

Yeah, it also felt very dune. You know, like the desert power. I also like that it was a slight echo of something. that happened maybe in the previous episode where Damon, no, it's a couple episodes ago where Damon is sort of trying to gee up Renera and she's like, let's go get Dorne. And it's like, well, this has been something

that's kind of, you know, it's been stuck in the Targaryen craw for a while. The idea that they have, this is the one thing they haven't been able to take. No question. I mean, I think that the arrested development and Game of Thrones contingent in the audience will have a little bit of a narrator like eventually they bow, they bend, they break. Which is part of what's interesting about it, actually. This idea that, I mean, first of all, there's just the, you know, Ormond is such a Targ racist,

but he's also so sexist that the fact that the only woman in the history of the realm, he can find a way to praising is one who outfoxed the Targs. And even then, he's like, let me list all the things that really were like. What and Ogo? Yeah, boy, not a looker. Like, just classic Ormond. The character, it doesn't smell good. Yeah.

Yeah. The, I think the fact that he's like, Maraxis was a victim of this war. this dragon is very clearly inside of the ormage we've come to understand over these few episodes. The fact that he is not heeding the other part of the lesson, which I think is particularly interesting given that we have compared him to Taiwan a lot. We've propped him up, I think rightly so far, including just what we've talked about today, as a PR and like strategic genius, right, is he's not thinking about the Darren question, which was a good one to pose. hero or a villain.

You know, the thing that you're describing sounds pretty fucked up and foul, and I think what's interesting is not just that Ormond and Darren, of course, aren't seeing it the same way. Like, we understand enough about both of their characters for that to feel right.

It's that the realm asked that same question. Mary Martel was greeted by many in the realm as a coward, and her tactics were considered deeply, like, base and treacherous, right? Not acting with honor. I think the fact that that is of no concern to Ormond.

Yeah, because, That's because they all bent and each the Targaryens and she fucked them up and took their hands and all this other stuff. Yeah. They lost. Yeah. So he's not concerned about being held in any sort of. I mean, yeah, she's a fascinating character. But he's not like, do I need to be worried about how like a campaign like that might be received?

He doesn't, despite all of the like, okay, the people of Tumbledon are watching me receive this complaint. I need to think about that. He doesn't care about the broader implications of that because he thinks he, as a high tower superior man, is above. of any kind of ramification from that. You know, the sort of nature of this episode was interesting because I missed last episode doing it with you guys. And they... We miss doing it with you.

But there is almost like a weird kind of disorientation by not talking about it with you where I'm like, okay, so all of these guys are kind of spread out. And they were all given original marching orders. I need you to go to Heron Hall. I need you to do this. I need you to go cut these people off. For now, we're going to turn around and go to Tumbleton. And I was amused by how much raven action there was last week, you know, with just like,

oh, I got this new email. I got to check. You know, like, I do feel like this is a real fog of war moment for this whole, this whole group of people because there are so many people who seem to just sort of be like, I don't really even know what the objective is now. You know what I mean? Because we're kind of waiting for so much stuff to happen. Well, Kristen, certainly.

Yeah. Yeah. And Gwain certainly. But, like, I think what I love about this is you mentioned that this reminded you of a season two, we're all marching towards something. But it's not just sort of like, let's not make it feel like nothing's happening between battles. So we have the Riverlanders and the Winter Wolves, which is, you know, the troops that Damon told to march down in Kinglandia have now been redirected to Tumbleton. And that's the old dude and the young boy that you saw.

Who's the young boy? That's Oscar Tully. Oscar Tully. Yeah, the one who Damon spent much of season two with as he was trying to win the River Lords. And the Tullies are the twins? No, that's the phrase. Yeah. Tully's. of the cat, Cat Star Cats from season. But the Riverlanders. When they did the Fish Feed Battle at the beginning of the season, those are the men that Damon was fighting with. Right. And so they're on their way down. And Kristen Cole's like, well, we don't know where Vagar and Amund are. So all we can do is slow their progress. And Gwain's like, can we take a bath and a nap? I'm so miserable. So all Kristen and Gwain and the rest are trying to do is slow down or slow down or. stop the progress because they're outmatched. They can't fight them. Slow down the progress of the Riverlanders and the Starks on their way to Tumbledit. But there's this guerrilla warfare back and

forth between the two. And then Ormond, as he waits in Tumbledon, is, you know, staging elaborate intestine feasts in Kings Landing. So there's like fun, active stuff happening. And meanwhile, we've got Dragon Riders who are essentially sitting there watching Tubleton. Right. I could burn it to the ground. But that would essentially ruin Reneer. his reign. Yeah, and that's one of the things Reneer talked about last episode, right, this idea that a recognition, even as she was saying, what is this about? What is this plan? A recognition undeniably that Tumbledon raised Reneer's banner. So Orman taking that seat, not only is it geographically proximate. You know, we hear like, there's no battlements. This is it. It's not fortified for

battle. It's like trying to provoke her into attacking her own defenders, her own loyalists so that she would be, you know, Magor returned is what she says previously. So that's in place still. I thought that like a visual, like Kristen being in the vagar dragon footprint was effective in a couple ways, like thematically. It's a reminder of this thing that happened at Rook's rest that triggered this massive change in Kristen's circumstances and set him on this nihilistic stage. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, what does it mean to be a man in a dragon war world, right? But it also was just like helpful to think about the board and where the players are because like we also see in this episode, Bela and, you know, as you noted, Hugh and Oll for monitoring Tumbleton, but

Bela and Adam with C-Smoke and Moon Dancer are out looking for Vagar. It was like, okay, two days behind, Wendishtown, right? Okay, here's some scorched shirt on a farm. Here's a footprint. So it's not, everybody is like, you've been directed toward Tumbleton or we're going to try to go and stop you as you try to hit your mark. Everybody's also like looking. for Vagar or trying to trace that path or crossing that path. So it's a question of who can get where first or get ahead of the other person. Obviously, I think very satisfying moment when Kristen, who said, we'll be the scorpion on the axe, we'll be wraiths.

You know, fear is our standard. Last week is like doing that effectively for a little while. And then it's like, wait, fuck, are they the rates? We got here and they beat us. And the bridge is burnt and we can't cross. And then he decides he doesn't care anyway. And I'm excited to hear your thoughts as the world's leading Kristen defender. But, you know, there are the other areas where people could converge before everybody gets to the place they're actually trying to march.

Kristen could also just be like, I did my best. Let's go back to Old Town. And I'm going to like... Yeah, but crucially, he doesn't. Where are you on Kristen? What did you think of this? Gawain makes him this offer. Calls him friend a couple times. And Kristen decides that's not the choice he's going to make. You love Kristen to serve our house there. I don't think he entertained it. I don't think he entertained it at all. I mean, yeah. Yes, he probably committed a conversational faux pa by saying serve. But I think that Kristen has decided that whatever he has done in his life and whatever he has seen with his eyes means that this is his last mission, like, cumulatively. And like, you know, whether or not he's damning other men to death because of that.

And he could maybe. I mean, he literally did in this episode. Guys are dropping dead in the mud as they're hiking. Yeah. And it's just like, leave them there. He's like, we'll swim. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about this sort of like original love triangle or quadrangle square,

love square, between Damon and Rainira and Allison and Kristen Cole. Because like it's all very much in play here. When Allison is talking to Missaria and she's like, Reneira chose Damon long ago and do you think she's going to pick you over Damon? And the way that Allison's talking about it's like so clear. This is what she says. She says, when his son shows. eyes on you. You feel,

no, that's Jennifer Garner talking about Ben Affleck to Vanity Fair. But basically she's like, she's like the warmth of Reneara's gaze. She's talking about

this long ago original sin that she sees it of Reneura choosing to like have an incestuous love affair with her uncle rather than stay on the path with Alicant.

And so that original wound for Allison. And for Kristen, Reneera didn't choose him, right? And so he says they'll sing songs about it and Queen Allison

will hear them. So like, you know, He's put in, and Gwain's like, oh, buddy. My God. Tough one. You know? So, like, this, this wound that Allison and Kristen, I think, feel of, like, wanting Reneera's love and not having it is such an interesting, like, mixer. And I think, I think Rineira is the toughest character to dramatize in this show because she keeps being trapped in, like, one room.

You know what I mean? Like, she keeps getting trapped in these situations. where she's got this frustrating cabinet that she's negotiating with or a frustrating lover that she's negotiating with or a frustrating best friend. But like she gets so little action, right? She has to basically externalize a lot of her feelings about where she is and who she is,

like to these different characters. And, you know, I do feel like ultimately she's somebody who's just the thing that she believes in most is what her father told her about her fate. And that's going to cost us. her a lot in this life. And it's going to probably cost her closeness and friendship and lovers and all these things. But she has one clear idea, which is that dad said that I was the one. And that has to justify all the bad things that happen.

Points to her for not saying, Dad said I was the one. So I really can do whatever I want if it's in service of that. I would posit that that that happens routinely. That every time she invokes the will of the gods, it is to that end to say that my decisions are justified, even when she first... Well, when they were talking about the seven and they're like... Yeah. He's like, well, you know, like, if this, if I'm queen, God wills it to be so. Right. So this is then, like, the seven should be kissing my ass, basically.

If this is their will, then who dares stand in my path is a thing that she... On the one hand, but on the other hand, this sort of idea of half measures when Damond's like, we should have burned them when we had the chance. Yeah, it's like, press the button then. I mean, of course he's right, but also like the fucking gall. Like you were the one who took the wrong kid and didn't even like fact check in real time. So incredible stuff from Damon as always. But yeah, I think Reneira's presence in absence is like such a palpable weight for all of these characters. I love that observation.

It's particularly delicious to think of like invoking the specific passage that they use in this episode that they bring back. You know, it's the one from the fourth episode of season one that Reneera snuck out in the bowels of the pleasure done with Damon. why is it blocked? Why does Allison find it blocked? Because of high tower interference, the irony of this, of Allison being undone by auto coming in and trying to put Rainira on blast to Vassaris.

High tower interference to try to stifle and suppress Reneira is the thing that actually leads to that being blocked off now. I couldn't remember. Is that confirmed or did it... That is the same tunnel? No, no, I know it's the same tunnel. No, I'm just making an assumption.

An alternate idea is that post-blooded cheese, because they blocked them all. Different door. Yeah. Because like, different rooms came in an in the image room

a different door. But like that, I was wondering, I'm like, we don't know the answer. Was it because of Otto and Otto's like block up the princesses

like, you know, sneaky go out to fuck her uncle passage? Or is it like, hey, some rat catchers murdered the heir to the throne. Let's block up all the passages. I don't know the answer.

Yeah. There used to be some really handy wall sconces down there that were not there. Allison and Helena. Either way, it's like the effect of history reaching in

to suppress and stifle them. I loved that in the Masaria conversations, Allison, I thought shrewdly, will it work out? I don't know, but shrewdly was like not just invoking Damon, but also invoking the, you're going to trust a dragon rider. Like just reminding Masaria who we know, you know, if we think back to Masari's original relationship with Damon, like, you're not one of them and you actually like don't want to be one of them and they have a thing that you don't. You know, the marriage proposal such that it was that Rainira made to Damon in season one, episode seven, was like, we're made to burn together. Yeah. Alicent is being deliberate in her tactics here to try to survive Masaria being on their

trail here on their case. But like, what she's saying is not wrong. She's like, girl, she dumped me. She's going to dump you. Yeah. And the sting of that, the way that you carry that through your entire life, you know, Kristen's saying last week, like, there's no home for me with Renera on the throne. And it's like, with Reineer on the moon. If Reneer a dumpsy, you never get over it. That's just a fact. I mean, there's also, it's interesting to see characters block off their own passageways. You know, like Damon obviously betrays Alice, turns his back on her.

She turns us back on him. He's kind of stuck, quote unquote, with Rina, who he's also lying to about Rana and sheepstealer. To that Alice point, like she refers to Reneer as the ungrateful queen in this episode. said and... Because she supplied her with the room at... Because she didn't give her her and she didn't get heron haul. And like, that was Damon in real time being like, fuck off. I would argue that's Damon's ballplay.

Yeah, not Renair's. But it's all kind of connected to what we're talking about today, which is so much of the blame, whether it's right or deserved, ends up falling on Renera. Because all eyes are on Renera and she, just is to your point about like, Ormond has the luxury of kind of operating in the shadows in a way Renera doesn't. Even if the culpability is on one of her lie lie with her. Alice, I'm sure it's. also quite mad at Damon, right?

But it feels notable that she's like the ungrateful queen. I wanted to ask you about one of the last shots of this episode, which was the sort of last supper of the gold cloaks and the graffiti up on the feast of traitors. Clearly, like, something done to unnerve and take away from Damon's sense of security as much as it is the Targary, like Renierras as well. But the gold cloaks, I mean, just for folks at home, who may be more casually watching, what's the difference between them and say,

well, there's the Kingsguard, Queens Guard. Are the gold cloaks the same thing? No. They're cops. They're the City Watch. Okay. And this is when Massaria is like, well, maybe they wouldn't be getting targeted

if they didn't react to every infraction with, like, extreme violence. Right. If they hadn't been like, we're looking for a graffiti artist, we're going to beat everyone. But also, they're not getting paid. So the fact that Orman has the intel.

Yeah. that the City Watch, you know, is being brutal. So the people will rejoice when the City Watch are killed in this street. That Damon in particular is pissed off about this. And this is a real wedge between Damon and Reneer. I mean, it's just like a perfectly targeted moment. After, you know, you mentioned Kristen Cole's Crispin Day speech, but Damon gives a big motivational speech in this episode to a room of people who will be corpses before the end of the episode, you know.

So like, and Damon is dealing with this. Like, however much Damon cares, it's unclear. I'm forever tracking what Damon actually cares about. But it seems like he cared about Simon Strong dying. Yeah. It seems like he cares about Raina and her safety. And it seems like he cared about the gold clothes. These are the guys who showed up for him when he stormed, you know, the Red Keep.

And we're like, Damon gave us these cloaks. We're going to show up for him. And now they're all dead. Yeah. I think that the way that Reneera and Damon in that wonderful sept scene, you know, such a interesting and perfect setting because that's a location we have. associate with Alicent and Reneira across time and then got a version of it in a different location with Darren and Ormond last week. You know, there's the comedy of Reneer being like,

you know, Damon, we just were greeted with Damon's laughter before we see him finding Reneer there, like, pretending to pray, right? Because the faith rejected Reneer. I said, I won't, you know, the high symptom is like, I'm not going to annoy you. You know what? So Reneer is thinking about what is necessary, but like to what extent is that the right move to make here? the fact that in this conversation they were talking about ultimately the same thing, which is this incursion into their, the closest thing they have right now in this place to an army, right? Because the rivermen are still trying to reach them. Forty thousand strong, still trying to get there and also have been redirected. So like, get their when, right?

They just got to organ trail their way across that river. I know. Ford it. Ford that river. Cock the wagons, guys. I mean, please. Sir. There's a, a, a, a, circumstance it's undeniable. Damon is like, men have done this and men can be found. There's a practicality to the way Damon talks about it that is, I think, of course, probably unmoored for him when he looks at the uncanny horror of the specter in front of him, even though that was staged by men, right, and done by men. Or that little girl who was sent to maybe kill them, fascinating stuff. Maybe that's just one of the little birds for the other side. But Renera talks about it in the most existential philosophical, religious, spiritual terms, something stirs against me.

There's this concession first, right? Because so much of the early episode from Reneer was like, that small council scene, everybody's bringing up other points in Reneer keeps going back to Vagar and Amid. Vagar, Vagar, Vigar, Vigar, Vigar. So initially there's a like, okay, yeah, the enemy is within and I need to focus on that. But the way that Reneer talks about it, something stirs against me, something crouched, something formless. I feel the dread of it. Got like a chill listening to that. And I think we've been talking and using the word paranoia to describe this state, Renera, as moving into the last

couple episodes. This is an interesting moment to consider that because Renira is right. Reneer is definitely right. And so often paranoia carries this connotation of like you're thinking that you're sensing things. It's basically what Damon says. You hear the wind and you think it's an omen, right. Renera's right. However, that does not mean that those like tendrils don't root themselves so deeply into her that the paranoia that unfurls from there becomes impossible to contain. And then what is the cost? Because trust is already so thin. I also think that if Masseria winds up keeping Allison's secret, then that's Damon keeping a big secret about Raina from Ranira. And that's, and that's Maseria keeping. Finding out that

even though Orwell is like, this is the last time I can do this. I've got to tell the queen from here. Right. He still did it. And he and Renair have kind of like been bonding. Can we talk about Helena for a second? Sure. I thought she was really good in this episode. And, like, I think they've done, I mean, I think Fia has always been really good as Helena, but this is, like, my favorite Helena episode and performance. Because she was feeding the cats? Probably.

I don't know. We're trying to figure out what she was doing on the ground with that bowl, perhaps feeding the cats. But, like, just, you know, Fia talked in the behind this. The actress talked about in the behind the scenes, sort of like, this is the first thing that Helena has that is her own. And that's, like, one of her lines in this episode. And Van talked about this last week on Talk of Thrones. But, like, to give that character. something that is hers and her motivation.

I've had a vision. He burns, but there is no fire. Yeah, exactly. So that was a sick lie. That was really good. And she's like, I've been visiting his streams. It's fine. What's going on?

It's entirely possible. But for her to be like, it's mine. Like, it's mine and you can't tell me what to do. And I just thought that performance was really good. And I'm just so, like, locked in on Helena and what's going on with her. And that's Aon's baby. We think so. Pre-Rooks rest before the cock exploded.

like a sausage on a spit. Nice timeline clarity there. We got an email from a listener who was like, every time you guys say that, that anatomy is not your own. You can't talk about it that way. It's just canon.

We're just quoting on the show. My picture is not your costume. I thought the Helena Allison plot in this episode was also a great, like a great portal for us to think about the role that lies play in this world and with these characters because as Helena calls out,

Allison, I love this. I think of Allison. We think of Allison. as a very not so often on her her back foot and often put in unfair positions by other people, but a very composed, thoughtful, articulate character. The stammering in this, this is why it's actually going to be okay to leave Jehara behind sequence with Helena. And Helena's like, you look away when you're lying. Like, I know that you're fucking bullshitting me here was so interesting because Allison is trying to get out and is trying to save Helena and has said that this is the most important thing in the world to her.

Helena has said she was happier before she was queen. Allison wants Helena to have something that Allison herself has never been able to enjoy, which is a moment of fucking peace and joy. But if the path to achieving that is asking Helena, whose son was already murdered in front of her, to do the thing that Allison right now would do anything to avoid, which is like leave your daughter behind. I mean, first of all, just tells us so much of,

about the world that these are the choices and calculations the characters have to make. But like, when Helena's like, I'm not going to fucking do that, I'm not leaving Jahara behind. You're like, yeah, tell her. And how could she ask her to? Does she understand, do you think,

the magnitude of what's going to happen if they find out there's an heir to the throne? Well, Allison tells her as plainly as she could, I think. Right? Yeah. It's like, Reneira will kill that kid. Yes. So she, I mean, she says that.

She's like, directly. Like, she's basically like, I would if I were her. You know what I mean? Like, it's not even like she blames Reneura. She's just like, this is what has to happen when there's something like a conflict like this. This is the undeniable thing that Otto prepared Allison for the entire stretch of season one with the original cast, like the younger characters. I was thinking back to that sequence from the fifth episode when Otto, one of Otto's many ousters, right?

He's on his way out of town. This is the hands on the other side of the face moment, right? Yes. And it's the either prepare egg on to rule. okay, but sub that clause for this circumstance, sub it for anything, right? Or you cleave to Rainira and pray for her mercy. Otto's entire also fucked up grooming to the hands on the face visual parallel we've been getting with Ormond, which Joe noted last episode.

Reneira and Allison still have a depth of affection, but Allison has been weaned for two decades now to understand that whatever personal love and care they have for each other, they have been directed toward a certain indebted. inevitable choice. Allison said it to Reneera in the third episode, like where, and we hear an echo of it in this episode, wearing the crown, sitting on the throne, it will make you do things that you didn't want to do. And Reneer is like, I refuse to accept that. But Allison clearly believes it. And it's, some of it is about Reneer. It's more about power and that position and the realm, what the realm will demand of you. So it's very tragic because it's not like a dismissal of what

she thinks is inside of Reneer's heart. It's like that doesn't matter because the world stamps it out of you. It's like really hard. heartbreaking. The other one, other plotline that I wanted to really discuss with you guys was Alice and Eamond. This is what I wanted to talk to you about. You just calling her compelling, Chris, I've never felt closer to you. Alice? Tell me about your Alice feelings. Well, I just think that there, you know, we just saw the Odyssey, many people have seen the Odyssey by the time we get to this episode. And I like the idea of a time of apparent magic. And the idea of Alice being, you know, in touch with the more

magical elements of this world beyond dragons and such but like knowing that like things happened to build Harren Hall and it explains a little bit more about why she wants to be the sort of landlord of that place yeah

and whether or not she's gambling at the end there where she's like these guys have come and I think that if I taunt them this time Amon's going to come for me. I definitely think she's faking damsel in that because when she just like, without breaking a sweat, calls all those bats earlier, you know? Also, incredible sleep. Move over Bruce Wayne. Yeah, incredible sleeve acting from Gail Rankin, right? She's now got these like incredible

sleeves on her costume and she's just like sashing around with them. But like, she has so much power. And so she just sort of like not only damsels herself in that situation that Amon comes running out to it, but like she gets grabbed and she's just sort of like, oh, and doesn't like make a single move to try to defend herself. I'm like, that's not the Alice, I know. I just thought it was, you know, in the same way that Ormond is tutoring Darren. Yeah. You know, I think Alice is doing the same for Aman.

And by having him fell those guys, it's like, see, you still got it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, the wound is healing. Yeah. And you're ready to kind of know. What else is he going to get? It's the two of us against the world, you know what I mean?

The way that all of Allison's children, so A. with Laris and Darren with Ormond and Amid with Alice and then Helena with Alice and herself. But like the hard truths that they're learning or the way in which they are being cultivated to like what does Laris want? Right. From, you know, what does it serve him to indulge or challenge Agon here? What does Alice want if she's got Amon in her pocket, right? What does Orman want as he has Darren in his pocket? So like the way in which these royal children are all being used by these other people around the realm.

They all think they're the king, but they're all the pawn. It's also, I mean, worth noting, like, when you were talking about Allison being willing to sacrifice to her for saving Helena and also herself, it's like, this is a person who, unfortunately, looks at many of her children and is like, you're an abomination. Yeah, and Helena's the one she can. I don't really know you. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, what's Darren like? And she's like, I sent Darren away when he was like five, you know? She's like, either has red hair and blonde.

I'm not sure. She said as much about Helena a couple of episodes. episodes ago, like, you're, she may be the one I can redeem. Like, it feels like every, it's very, but I love that she's like, Jehara, not. I know. It's so, it is so tough. I mean, a lot of characters have, you know, it's a different manifestation of version, but like, the parallel with Allison and Kristen of like, this is the one last stand I can make, right, redemption in this fashion. Fascinating. I, Alice, talking about the way the castle breathes, she calls it her. She genders the castle, too. No notes.

the life in the stone, the blood in the stone, to pick up the stone to summon the bats before she picked it up and through it, I was like, is she just like channeling the life force of Harenhol? It was incredible to watch. Exactly, yeah, unlimited power. And then like the fact that Eamens,

when he comes out into the godswood, there's a lot of, you know, the dagger, the cat's poppley, the dagger prophecy has been cast aside. But he picks up blackfire again, right? So there's still like a symbol of targ power in his hands. But how does he kill the last guy? throws him on a tree. Yeah. The roots, give blood to the roots of the tree. So that's amazing. It thirsts. On the sound design front, you know, we could recognize very clearly, like,

the screams from Egon being burned at Rook's Rest, the laughter of when he walked in on Amon at the brothel with Sylvie. Those are real moments. And we're not inside of Amon's head other than the fascinating cut to Vagar's eye, which is very reminiscent, I think, of the to Syrac screeching when Reniro was in labor in the season one finale in terms of the tie between Beast and Ryder. And then it's like, well, why is Vagar out burning? Is it? Because Vagar senses, it's what Aiman wants. Is it something different? But regardless, like, we haven't seen the specifics of Aman's dreams. We hear him talk about it. We think the show was like, they didn't love the Damon dreams last season. Let's just give them a quick audio version. I do think that's possible.

I was like, we got to get Aman out of this bit. But we know enough from the ample time we spent with Damon in those sequences that it's simultaneously like real memories and actual trauma, but with a herod hall wherewood paste is twice. This is why I was kind of wondering whether or not there was a degree to which Alice was phantom threading him a little bit. Oh, no question. 100%. Eat these mushrooms. Yeah. And I will cure you. You are. I'm the one who has been grieved, which is like the description that was just issued about a mother because she could do so quickly that what Amon has a mommy fetish and needs to be loved by a mother, he curls up against her bosom and says mother.

I mean, it's like probably still second on the list behind maybe literally drinking breast milk while being cradled in Sylvie's bosom last season. But, you know, Amy, you say that every time. It was just warmed up milk. It was warmed up milk. Anything is on offer. And we know this from Littlefinger for back in the day. Anything is on offer at these pleasure dens if you ask.

Can I hit you with an Alice related and then related to another question you had for us sort of sigil moment inside of this episode? So when Alice calls the bats, that's the sigil of House Heron, like Heron Hall. Like that's their sigil. You asked about the traps that were on the ground that the horses stepped on. Those are cramble. They call them crow's feet, right? But they're caltrops.

And caltrops is the sigil of House Footley, which is the house at Tumilton, Lord and Lady Footley. There's a in there called the Bloody Caltrops. And that's definitely like a book reader moment. I'm not sure if that's a big tourist. attraction. Not for you? Why not? It seems like something

you'd get in like lower tier Vermont. You know? Sounds wonderful. I would go to the bloody couch in Vermont. Sign me up for a three day weekend. Absolutely.

I bet they have like a great sort of plowman's platter. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, that's, I mean, those are real, those are like actually like a really fascinating tool of war

because the way that they're designed no matter where you, how you throw them down, one prong will be sort of facing up. All the horses just are like yeah. Dunzo. Very tough.

Yeah. I had a couple of like little house cleaning questions. There's a quick scene where the lady goes up to Renair and is like, Joffrey's back. Yes. Where was Joffrey? The veil. Why is he back?

Reniro's called him. I was like, he's the air now. Okay. So she's like, I lost another kid. Yeah. And Jane Aaron to Damon last week was like, you gave me a small dragon in the first place. And now I don't even have like that. So, yes, another retrieved pled.

or pledge that wasn't ultimately delivered. Another sort of advertisement for Mother of the Year by her being like, I'm sure he's tired. I'm going to go. I thought that was interesting given the... I feel like she's scared. Yeah, the real hold that the loss, and very understandably the loss of Luke and then Jase has on Renera

to hear the chopper's back and not go. And then the mirror image of how fake Darren ultimately, but how Reneera watched fake Darren's sleep a couple episodes ago. Is it sweet now? Because you thought it was really creepy when she did it with fake Darren? I don't know if I would say this was sweet. I thought this was quite sad. Bittersweet.

Yes. I thought this was very, very heavy to watch. A question we had had for this kid because this kid has been like tiny was, are they going to recast this kid? But it's the same kid, Oscar Escanazi, the original Joffrey back in the action. Way to go. Boy, yeah. So now, just to set up next week, which we have not seen scenes from, so we don't know.

Right. Everybody is just like, oh, shit, it's happening. I'm excited to see what the tease is. It does feel like potentially based on where we are in the season, one where we might be like, we wish we'd seen that tease when we recorded Dog for Thrones. We're converging on Tumbledin, though, right? Like there's a lot of action going towards Tumbledon.

There's a lot of like, I mean, there's Tumbledon. Yes, but there's ground to cover before then. Yes, okay. There's ground to cover before then. Okay. Well, we don't want to spoil anything. I had a lovely time being back talking with you guys about this. We'll be back next week.

Any final thoughts? I guess I'm really curious to see how sort of the massive receive this episode because I can feel like there's a version of response where it's like nothing happened in this episode, which I disagree with. But I think, you know, some people might feel like it's place set table setting or wheel spinning. But like that's always when like the richest character work stuff happens. If anything, I thought this was very dense episode. It was just, like last week maybe did not have a, and then this happens, you know? Well, then a bunch of people were posed with their guts on the table. I don't know what's going to happen to

Allison and Helena. I know. Do you think they will follow the ming of the cats? I hope so. That seems... I hope a cat saves the day. I think it's... Helena uses her...

Animal bond. Exactly. I was hoping Missoria would help him out. That's also possible. I think that's in the mix. I think to your dense episode point, like we didn't even talk. I mean, we talked a little bit about Laris, but like, I don't know, I think I will tell you the truth, you were a terrible.

King, but worse than that, you are a terrible man, is like, one of the best lines and moments of this series to date. And then they just share an apple afterwards? Red Apple. We'll have been in that for the deep dive. Your boy, Laris, with a red apple? He gave it to someone else. But he had it.

Uh-huh. Which means he wanted it. So, yeah, like, I don't know. That's just a great scene and a great moment. And you have, like, a lot of really good character beats inside of their dynamics, but also for each of their arcs inside its episode. So I am, I have a similar. question to Joe's. Like, I think that there's so much PTSD from the end of season two and the

lack of like that really big battle a moment, which I think we all agreed with and felt it was reasonable. But I wonder if as a result of that there's like almost such a need now for these these big moments, especially because everybody knows we only have, that's there's just, after this, what are there, 11 episodes of the series left? Is that it? Right. That's like not a lot. So I hope that there's still room in people's hearts for the quieter conversations in rooms. which is part of what we love about Thrones in the first place and the political intrigue. This show is as close as to the original Game of Thrones series right now as it has been to me. I really agree.

And I'm not impatiently tapping my foot for a battle at the same time. I believe there will be a battle next week and I believe there will be a battle in the finale. And I, you know, I don't know about seven, but like, you know, there's at least like two juicy battles coming. Yeah. You know? Mallory, Joanna. Thank you for joining me. Thanks to Alleya and everybody for producing us today.

And we will be back next Sunday for episode six. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust.

Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.