House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 6 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the sixth episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, "Faceless Men." They discuss the Butcher’s Ball, dragon dreams, some assassination attempts, and more! (00:00) Intro (08:00) Opening Snapshot (19:12) Deep dive (19:53) The Butcher’s Ball is here at last (42:11) The black council remains a dumpster fire (01:00:57) House Baratheon enters the chat (01:08:29) Ulf shares a lament with Hugh (01:12:57) Rhaenyra and Alicent discuss escapegate (01:18:55) Mysaria covers her ass (01:22:26) The gold cloaks retire (01:26:05) Alyn appeals to his father (01:29:20) Tyland, Larys, and Aegon dig the realm’s shallowest grave (01:32:17) Alys ratchets up the flirting (01:35:41) Jeyne Arryn scolds Rhaena (01:38:40) It is, once again, incest o’clock (01:42:35) Gwayne arrives in Tumbleton (01:55:13) Helaena sews the future (01:58:34) Alys shows Aemond her dragon eggs (02:22:22) Rhaenyra hears petitions—and cuts her hand (02:33:38) Daemon goes undercover (02:34:04) Gwayne thwarts an assassination attempt (02:40:57) Kat rejects Hugh (02:42:14) Rhaenyra sends Alicent to Harrenhal (02:47:57) Closing shots (02:49:05) Book spoilers! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, she'll hear no more from those whose greatest battle has been with their own indigestion. Oh. It's Joanna Robinson. So it's a silent podcast from both of us today?

Silent pod. We're in. We're out. Done. We're done. Okay. It's a wrap. We are here to not only work through our latest.

infirmities and ailments, thank you for your patience with us once again. But to dive deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Into House of the Dragon, season three, episode six, which we will do. Right after this. All right, programming reminders. Talk to Thrones. We've only got a couple more of those left this season. Sheesh.

Sunday night. It's sad. Right after episode 7. we will be back with Chris Ryan for Talk to Thrones. And then our plan currently is to do the finale live. So get in the YouTube chat for the finale in a couple weeks. That's going to be a fun one. We will be back on Tuesday or Wednesday for the deep dives.

And Spider-Man, in the meantime, brand new day is here this week. It's Spidey Premier Week at last. And so we will have our deep dive into the new Spidey movie on Friday afternoon is the loose plan. But we've got a couple of recordings that day. We're working out some scheduling stuff. So Friday into the weekend. TBD. We're doing our best. How can everybody follow it along? Oh my God, great question. Email us Hoppets and Dragons at gmail.com.

We're doing an honest email bag. Let's hear it. There was a call to action on our socials, and you guys have already sent a ton of emails for that, so that's really exciting. Thank you for that. We probably have more than we need, but actually, you know what? Send more. Keep them going. Why not? Yeah. So Odyssey email. And then any question you have about the Odyssey, any opinion you have about the Odyssey. We will definitely get into the Emily Wilson controversy and all that sort of stuff. But you guys have just been sending us so many post-odicy emails that we thought we would just do a special mailbag for you. We're excited.

We're doing that at the top of next week. So if you want to get those in before the end of the week, that would be great. Also, we're going to do our official Nolan ranking on that podcast. We were going to save it for the Oppenheimer. Who knows what that pod's going to do? We don't know when that's going to be. So it's going to be before Paula Faye. Maybe.

Probably. As you can say. So I'm curious, here's a prompt for the bad babies. Not necessarily your Nolan ranking because we're not going to read out a million people's Nolan rankings. But like if you want to make the argument for like what is the most Nolan movie and why, I'd be curious to see it. If you're like, here's my case for why Interstellar is the most Nolan movie or here's my case why the prestige is the most Nolan movie or something like that or Inception, if you prefer if you're Mallory. So most best, however you prefer to define it. Oppets and Dragots at Gmail.com.

Follow us on social at House of R. And you can watch us. At House of Our Pod. Thank you so much. That is our social handle. It is. At House of Our Pod. You can watch us on YouTube.

You can watch us on Spotify. Follow the pod in general. Yeah. Like, subscribe, tell your friends. Should I post a photo that I sent you in Arjuna last night of the migraine cap that I was wearing. Battling a pretty bad headache. Girl, I don't think you can tease it on the podcast and not post it.

It was a recommendation from Arjuna. Now you're locked in. Just has arrived in my home. We'll see if it provides some relief. It was a nice initial task. Maybe I will post it. We'll see. Though I've yet to post a photo with Dark Sister.

So that seems more important during the hot D run. Why not both? The migraine cap on holding Dark Sister. I mean, that's like real, you know, Luke. Yeah, training. Training. Yeah. kind of vibe. Should I do that with a valerian steel blade? I don't know.

I just have Adam off camera go like, pio, you know, like make the little noises. He'd be good at that. Yeah, I think so. He'd be good at that. I have a very special, before we get into like our larger episode and all the other things we do, I just have a quick message from our listeners, Katie and Eli, who we met at San Diego Comic Con, who were wearing these incredible Gods Be Good shirts. Yes. They sent us some photos in our email of like the shirts signed, like, because we, They had to sign the shirts, so like that. Anyway, I just want, you and I have, for different reasons, had slightly arduous week so far. And so I just thought that I would read this, like, really nice email from Katie and Eli.

Let's hear it. It's exciting. I haven't seen it. It's a surprise to me. I've cut out the nice things I said about me and this is about you. As a fellow graduate of the humanities, go Syracuse Orange. Oh, cute. I think now more than ever in our society, it is critical that we highlight and celebrate the wonder, creativity, messages, themes, and entire world so that TV and movies can submerge us into helping to develop entire communities of fans who can connect over stories across the world. I added a goal to my 26 Vision Board this year to intentionally make time for myself to unplug from the hustle of everyday pressures and pursue crafts and creativity in my life, even in small ways for the things

I am passionate about. I did this to remind myself of my childhood love for art and the creative process, not to simply produce a painting or finished product, but for the sheer joy of creating, which is where I came up with the idea to paint the godsby good Apple T-shirts. I love it. Here you guys give our shirts a shout out on your recent Comic-Con recap pot. Absolutely made my day. I was cleaning my kitchen and dropped my spatula and had to immediately call Eli and tell him. Thank you for all that you do and for bringing such substance, depth, and appreciation

to the fabric of these stories, not just for myself, but for countless other bad babies as well. your deep dyes into all the wonderful details helped to weave a common thread that makes these characters, kingdoms, and experiences so important to us fans and that make the entire experience all the more special.

It's delightful. Thank you, Katie and Eli. It was just wonderful to meet you. Wonderful to meet everyone. Meet all the bad babies with the meet up, at the panel, just kind of walking around San Diego

and the halls of the convention center. We did, it was a pleasure done for us. We went into the bowels of the convention center. It's true. We did actually. That was a real treat. That was wild. That was great. It was just amazing to meet so many of the bad babies and be out in the world with people who, you know, have gotten to know each other through the pod and who love the stories we love and the fictional universes. We love. And lots of jolt of just joy, truly. Make friends in line. You know what I mean?

Line buddies. Like that was really sweet. Line buddies are awesome. Like at the meet and great. So like, I would love even more occasion. I need to figure out how to do it. But I would love even more occasion to like sort of bring our, not like. necessarily like a physical thing, but like an online platform to bring our listeners together so that they can connect with each other. That's on my vision board for the rest of 2026. But we have some ideas cooking for the fall. So stay tuned. But anyway, thank you to Katie. Thank you to Eli. Thank you to all of our listeners who showed up and said hi this weekend. And thanks to those of you who weren't there, but are nonetheless listening to us talk about House of

the Dragon for hours than every week. I know. Wild. Not to mention Spider-Man. Mallory, you work extremely hard. And I am so impressed and delighted by you. And I just thought you should know. You're an angel. Love you. Thank you for that. Thank you, Katie and Eli. And, you know, just so I always feel when we're even a few hours late, a minute late on a pot, I always feel bad.

We're really doing our best. Just trying to get through it. But we're having a blast. So that's nice. It is the best to talk about this stuff. It really is. Should we get to the opening snapshot? Let's do it.

Okay. Season 3, Episode 6, Faceless Men, directed by Lonnie Peristerre, written by David Hancock and Shyam Popat. So we talked about this for the first time with Chris on Talk the Thrones a literal week ago. Yeah. Slightly disorienting. This is, I think, maybe the longest gap we've ever had. But maybe we had this same thing one other time between a Talk the Thrones banking and the deep dive. For anyone who did not listen to Talk the Thrones, or in case in the...

seven days, six and a half days since we recorded that, anything has changed. Give us a quick, opening, table-setting taste of your takes on this episode of television, Joanna. I think I've unclenched slightly on some of my takes that my initial takes. I still have some questions. I still think the Butcher's Ball, I have some... The thing about Talk to Thrones is we're sort of like racing to get through everything in an hour where I'm used to a much more luxurious pace. And so, like, you know, I had time for all my critiques of the butcher's ball, but not enough time, I think, for the positive things that I want to say about the butcher's ball of which I have plenty to say.

And I still have my critiques here and there. But I also just like, I'm excited to highlight some of the other things that we didn't get to that I did. Yes. That I did enjoy in this episode. So that's where I am. But also I don't think we like bash the episode the way that some of the commenters seem to think we did. I think we just had some. You know what?

It's okay to be critical of an episode. episode. Oh, definitely that too. Part of loving a thing is holding it to account when it's not as good as it should be. Yeah, I'm excited to dive deeper into this episode, too. I agree. Because there's a lot of really rich lore and story. Like, I'm excited to spend a little bit more time than we got to on Sunday show talking

about the Raina Dreamfire. Heron Hallecks, for example, like, we're, that's just, there's some really delicious, great Game of Thrones nerd shit in this episode that, um, oh, to be gay and sad at Aaron Hall, you know, that I'm really excited to dive into. And like we said on Sunday, the Tumpleton scenes, I mean, the Gwain, Ormond, Darren scenes were just delicious. I still have a lot of notes on this episode, and it remains my least favorite of the season. And I think the least successful of the season for all of the reasons we hit on Sunday and that will, you know, continue to parse and assess as we go through. But there's, the fact that there are only two

episodes left in this season is sort of surreal. Like, I can't believe we're six episodes into the season. I'm just like, where has the time gone? Where has the season gone? And so I'm thinking not only about this episode and the remainder of this season, but just the remainder of the series and how much, but also little time is left. I'm thinking about that. You're stressed about 10 episodes to cover. I'm curious to see, and I think the end of the season will do a lot to establish, like, what is going to be, what's going to make the cut and what isn't the rest of the way. I'm very curious to see that. I don't know that we'll have clarity on that by the end of the season. Maybe we won't. And then we won't find out for two years. Yeah. Sad. Okay. I'll miss House of the Dragon when it's gone. But we'll be together.

We'll be talking about. I know. We will be. We'll be with Dunk. We'll be with egg. We'll be with Hot Saran. Hot Saran. Hot Saran. Very exciting. Caliborne. What a lover boy. Sweet lover boy. Sweet lover boy. Sweet lover boy. It's just some great Instagram content right now in the Rings of Powerfront. Jamie Campbell Bowers just out there crushing it. On the TikToks, on the reels. He was like incredible on the story Things tour, and I think he's now, like, even more in his element. His love from Buffy the Vampire Slayer is incredibly important for me. Yeah. But also Charlie Vickers, expressing his love for Zina Warrior Princess is incredibly important

to me. It's big. Just two of the all-time great guys, you know? Speaking of great guys, let's get to the Bard Corner. Yeah. Great transition. What if we heard on the Bard front from the Bad Babies this week? We're changing this to Bard slash Classics Corner, okay?

Okay. Okay. Aiden, who I've been misgendering this whole time, Aiden, the originator of the Bard Corner, he's a lady. She let me know that. I think Aden's a really cool name for a lady. Aidan said, a warning for Reneer and Damon about their treatment of Ulf, courtesy of Sir John Falstaff. Quote, if sack and sugar be a fault, then God help the wicked, banish plump jack, and banish all the world.

Very good. Very good. William wrote in with some Richard the second, the hollow crown gist. William wrote in, when the iron throw wounded Reneer, I thought of Richard the second and how he described another royal symbol that harbors danger. Yeah. Quote, for within the hollow crown that rounds the mortal temples of a king, keeps death his court, and there the antic sits scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp. And with a little pin, bores through his castle wall and farewell king. So I thought all of that was really good.

but also William wrote in with a Beowulf quote for Kristen Cole, quote, we're all going to die from the Maria Devana Headley translation, which is one I raised when we were talking about the Odyssey translation. So he's reading that one, a fairly recent translation of Beowulf. Quote, we're all going to die, but most of us won't go out in glory. Here's what matters, though, for men, not living, but living on in legend. And then William wrote, no story glory for you, though, Kristen. So, yeah. No story, glory for you. It's just, that's great. And then I listen to Elizabeth wrote in quoting Elizabeth Bennett from Pride and Prejudice. Love it. Saying, I do not play this instrument so well as I would wish to, but I have always supposed that to be my own fault because I would not take the trouble of practicing. And that's a note for Roneira and ruling. And I want to read Elizabeth's email here because I cut it down a bit, but it's really, I thought, funny and fair.

She says, why does a show make grown-ass Roneira their girl in the fight so incompet? competent and incurious. I guess Viserius didn't do a good job training her and Agon for the role. However, a 12-year-old running for student council understands that they need to talk to their fellow middle schoolers to get the vote. Surely the heir to the Iron Throne, who grew up in Kings Landing and witnessed countless small council meetings, understands the importance of other nobles and institutions to keep the realm together. She never thought to hop on Syracs and take a few tours around Westrose to forge her own relationships with the leaders of the great houses while she was chilling on Dragonstone. She grew up near the great sept of Baylor, but

didn't think it worth trying to cultivate a relationship with the faith or at least powerful members thereof. Reneer threw a few carrots at people when Missari reminded her about the poor people in Kings Landing that she helped starve, but it's not like it occurred to her on her own. Viseris may not have prepared her well, but she as an adult could have at least tried to meet anyone to learn anything, to work on her diplomacy, to understand how to run a castle, to make actual allies, to understand the tax policy, anything she never took the trouble to practice. So that's Elizabeth's critique.

I don't disagree with a lot of it. we will add in, you know, all of the people on Dragonstone who were telling her, no, Rainira, no, Renira, you can't, like, do this, that, or the other thing. You know, Jace has to go out and do the diplomacy. Like, you can't get on your dragon. You have to be here. You're too precious. We need to protect you.

So all of that was happening. But if you think about young headstrong, I'm going to go on Syrax to Dragonstone, Renira. You know, there is a version of Renair that it has existed in this world that would have done those things. Anyway, Renira, but that Renira, historically about a diplomacy. Really did not work for her very well last time she went around Westroar, sort of trying to make good with the noble houses. So like... Didn't do great on the potential betrothal tour. Exactly.

So something she's always been bad at, but something she did not take the trouble to learn or correct. So failing on diplomacy front, failing on public relations front, failing on a lot of front. So Renira, bad at ruling, yes. Agon, also bad at ruling. I just need to say, Agon, also go bad at it. Damon, terrible. It's a shared failure of this entire family, which certainly connects to this entitlement and hubris. A lot of it is the failure to prepare them as the email. And as you said, Viseras, we put it on your doorstep as always. Yeah, I mean, spend more time with your family and your kids and thinking about your lineage. Never.

Less with your Legos. I'm going to be dead by the end of this podcast. When you died, never. Barely hanging on. Should we erect a giant statue to you in this, in the Sycamore studios? You can look up and... With you holding your Legos. Will you just occasionally look up and just flee? As the petitioners appeal to you? Depends if I've just sliced my hand on the symbol of power. Some sharp corners here. Some sharp corners here.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like you holding... Yeah, sure. Holding your Legos. Okay. That sounds great. Yeah, a couple...

One of my friends is a wonderful painter. One of my dear friends, Katie, is a fantastic painter. And she has painted me a couple times. And I'm holding books in those paintings. But why not I'll lie, though? Yeah. I'll see if next time I'm in Baltimore, she can work on that. Not next time.

We're a little busy next time. We are. We got a lot going on. On that email, the last thing I'll say is, it's a potent combo of not just the lack of prep, but when you hear that you're ordained by the gods, maybe you work a little, you know, you've got that on your mind as well. And then the other thing on the let's mention egg on front that you, I think, very reasonably and rightly noted when we should always hammer.

It's the kind of thing that Agon, or some of the bros, get away with. Oh, yeah. Damon, well, incompetent his whole life. Exactly. Part of the charm. Agon had, like, all this infrastructure around him, right? He had, like, auto. He had the sort of, like, this much smoother transition of power into his reign. So he could, like, sexually assault women in the court or be drunk or master ban on his mattress or whatever he wanted to do.

And then just sort of, like, he and, you know, and then fly in a battle and get his whole face melted off. You know what I mean? Like, an incompetent asshole. I just, like, I'm. I'm so more than happy to talk about how incompetent Roneer is and all the bad decisions she's making. I just want to make sure we don't forget because Aigon is making some, like, cool, enriching choices when he's like, Tylan, Elyxbittle tells me anything that I want to hear. Laris challenges me. I'll go with Laris.

You're like, oh, some growth. But I'm not going to forget what you did, Agon. No, of course not. Character on an arc? Egan the second? Sure. Sausage on a spin. Something I think about.

Sausage on a spit. Yeah, I think the choices and the failures and the mistakes that are part of the character arc, very rich text to parse and often quite a central element of this tragic, deeply tragic tale for the characters and the family. A little bit different from the, there are a few things in this episode that fall more into the, why did the show have the character do that bucket, a la Rainies and Malyse exploding through the floor of the dragon pit killing legions and then saying, Not on me to start shedding blood. Say a few things fell more into that bucket, and that becomes a different thing entirely.

So we'll draw that distinction as well. We have some big questions. Shall we head to the Bowels of the Pleasure Den or the Bowels of the Convention Center? Shall we head to the deep death? Something our pal Joaquin said to me when we were in San Diego ComCon is he called it District H, like the area around Hall H, as in District 8, as in the Hunger Games. as in like everyone's hungry and mad. And that's pretty good.

That's accurate. I think that should stick. Yeah. We should use that next year. Yeah. I like it. Walking the best. District age.

The best. What's the butcher's ball the best, though? Let's start there at the beginning of the episode. The butcher's ball is here at last. We are marching along with Kristen and his depleted army. Like Admiral Akbar into a trap. It's a zombie riverman. trap. The living sprang up from among the dead. I thought that was cool. Very fun. Very fun.

And Kristen and co. smashed some faces. Swinging some weapons. Fun to hear about the blood in the Morning Star. Flale. Flail. Right. By the way, in the House of Dragons Belt, they all called it a morning star. Email them, guys. But it's a flail, as we learned. Or maybe it's, maybe I've forgotten the nuance. Maybe it's like not all morning stars are flail. Oh, the old like, old rhombus. Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe a flail can be a morning star. But anyway, it's definitely a flail. Yeah. I think it definitely looked really cool. And I thought it was cool that, that Fabian Frankel was talking about how like thuggish he wanted Kristen Cole sort of last stand to be. Not just that he was like, he said, I think he said thuggish and sluggish, which is kind of fun. But like, not just that he's tired, but also like Kristen Cole,

you know, this accusation of him being a thug was something that sort of followed him his whole life. Something he quite earned when he like gave a bash the guy to death at a wedding, you know, in season one, if you recall. But, you know, that sort of classist language that was associated with him. So he doesn't go out, I mean, he goes out, you know, brutally bashing faces in, doing the sort of like shiv dagger emotion that, don't gift that.

Do it. Do it. Don't do it. Regrets, but he's not going out with like, you know, beautiful, elegant sword work. You know what I mean? Despite the fact that, you know, he ties Allison's favor around the pommel of the sword. Yeah. In this sort of wrap Allison around his, Allison's around his sword.

Loves it. Loves it. In this sort of like, his notion, what I do like, what I do think worked really well in this butcher's ball thing is the use of Alice's ball thing is the use of Alice's. Allison's favor, which he begged for in season two. And as you and I had this exact same idea in our notes, which is that this is a tieback to when we very first met Kristen Cole and he was asking for a favor from Renira. Minute one. Yeah. God sees Dornish. And like, you know, so that all ties into Kristen Cole's idea, occasional idea of himself as this like chivalric idea of the night, right? The perfect snow white cloak and how it's sullied.

But how he sort of like continually tries to reconvince himself that he is, you know, Sir Galahad. You know what I mean? And he just like never has been but this idea. And so for him to in that moment take the favor of his lady fair, the queen he was fucking, right? Wrap it around his sword as you so evocatively noted. And then like sort of die with it fluttering like just out of reach and stuff like that. But to wrap this ignominious death in this idea of chivalry and knightly perfection, it just like is his delusion to the very end of like who he is.

And that I think fits well into this larger idea of what the butcher's ball is supposed to give us, which is Kristen Cole, who in the previous episode says like they'll sing songs of this. and then what we get at the end of the day is something much more brutal and nasty and not an epic, you know, a saga-like exit for this character. Full of contradictions at the end,

which is ultimately pretty interesting to watch and more interesting than the overt, undeniable, so much of this falls at his feet villain on the page. You know, we, I think, are back in a place of, on the tipping of the scales, more judgment than not for Kristen at the end, which feels like an appropriate place to be with the character, given how much culpability he does bear and the things, the horrible things that he has done.

But I do like that we got even the choice to bring out his original weapon that we saw him using an attorney at the beginning when he asked for a nearer's favor, feels of a piece with painting the coal house sigil on the shield. And what is he seeking to reclaim and return to and connect to anew? And what can he not let go of, including the idea of some sort of righteous, pure, valid course. And to say, you know, in his big speech last episode that the oaths and the words of the great lords and houses that he's done with that and then shout as a

battle cry, we like the way, is, I think, a nice encapsulation of how confused. Yeah. The nihilism that defined the late stretch of Kristen's story was very clear and very undeniable, but it was embroiled and mixed with this confusion that was an undeniable, like, beat of humanity amid the horror that he, you hear them, that he was thinking of We Light the way as a little, like, Easter egg and a trailer for her, you know, she'll know. She'll know. She's going to see this. She's going to go frame by frame on YouTube, and she's going to know that was for her. I thought it was kind of interesting. I can't remember because it was a week ago and so much has happened, but I know that Chris raised the sort of question of, like, uh,

You know, that Kristen Cole dies in the opening of this episode and nobody talks about it. Yeah. And I would like to believe that a week ago, you and I had said that's sort of the point, right? That, like, there will be no songs about his death. Yes. I mean, eventually people will find out that Kristen Cole literally died. But the fact that Allison doesn't learn in this, you know, that he's like, they'll sing songs about it and Queen Alison will hear. Right. And Allison's like, I don't think about you at all. First of all, I've got one. You didn't make today's meeting notes for anyone. One job and it's Helena, right? So like, you know, Allison will hear of it. Allison, A, does not hear of it. And B, is not just like sitting back in the castle being like, I hope Kristen Cole's okay. Yeah. Doesn't much care. I do think that that is one of the handful of examples of this episode of something that feels like so thematically resonant and rich in the text and still is in the story that is rendered on screen here. Right. But just simply doesn't quite work as well as an episode of television and like logical coherent TV. because the fact that all season long, every time we go up with Jane Aaron and the veil, for example, like not a character actually in the thick of all of this stuff

the way that many other of our central figures are, everyone knows everything all the time. What's those Jane Aaron's dogs are on the cage? They are. You're right. I mean, maybe it's as simple as that. But I do think it feels a little stilted and inert and odd when Gawain and Ormond, for example, are talking about Kristen as though he is still outwaging this fight

that has ended and there are a number of moments like that across us or while reporting of the small council the Kristen's troops are hindering it's everybody else being on delay when so consistently this season they've all been current i i really think felt odd and i'm not surprised like chris and no no i'm not i'm not surprised uh and i don't know that it feels consistent but i do think it's it's uh to your point thematically rich yes and i do think that um i mean i have to assume that Gwain will find out next week that Chris and Cole has died similar to like Damon finding out. Maybe.

Maybe similar to like, you know, Damon finding out about Sir Simon Strong and stuff like that, do you know? And so it's just sort of like. And then asking about Alice. Remember that? That was epic. I do. That was great. So from the Hillcrest, they think they've won, right?

They think they've won. They've bashed some cheeks. Some faces have exploded. Okay. That's not really the fight, right? And that's just like in the book, Joe. All this was but prelude. the quote goes. So we see up on the hills, the winter wolves, the rivermen, emerging and

amassing and closing in. And Kristen gets, just like in the book, The Hour Death Line, right? It has arrived at last the moment that he has sought in some ways. And I really liked, because Oscar and Roddy are up at the front. I liked Oscar's, Kristen Cole, Trader, usurper, and defiler of justice come forth to hear your fate. The lack of the word, sir. Like, respect paid to this figure at the end, but just a real crystallization of how Kristen is seen by Team Black, but really by so many in the realm of somebody who is really uniquely responsible for what has happened here for Agon's Rise. Which is interesting because in this adaptation, he is a little less responsible than he is in the book. The book pins a lot of this Kingmaker stuff

directly on Kristen, and they're not like an auto-analysent were like very much involved as well. I think all this, I actually really liked this part of it. Yeah. Like the amassing of the forces on the ridge around through the mist shot partially that way so that it could like digitally enhance the number of people who are around, you know. But it gave very much Knights of the Veil showing up at the Battle of the Bastards or Gennelph and the Roherom showing up. But it's the reverse, right? It's not help is on the way. help is here. It's like, here's your death that's been like, you know, but it's shot in a similar way where it's just sort of like, ah, here they are. It's the troops. Oh, no. It's all of the people

who want to kill us. Yeah, this is not a battering ram to clear your path. It's the fist to close the fence. Yeah. And what I think is interesting, I've seen a lot of people critique this setup because the question is like, why this theater when they are so outmatched by the Rivermen? You know what I mean? And they stage this whole thing, I guess, to draw Kristen and his men into this, like, center. But, like, they sacrificed. Like, a bunch of Rivermen died for this, like, little bit of theater set up when really probably all of those men could have just charged Kristen and his men and got them. Right. Do you know?

Yes. I'd say that there's always a little bit of, was this the right battle tactic to critique on the throne's front? But I am not a military tactician. so who am I to judge? You know, the like, okay, Rob and Co. Had to sacrifice some men to lure Jamie into the trap. I like the idea that here it is, and this is not actually the answer to be clear. Let's just the delicious last taste of disappointment for Kristen, have them think.

Yeah. Sacrifice your man. To have Kristen think that he did it. I mean, just like those guys might have had families. You know what I mean? Like, Black Alie could have shot him in the face. And at any moment when he was flailing some of their guys in the face, you know what I mean? So, like, those guys are just fodder for at a great theatrical embarrassment of Kristen Cole.

Yeah. Well, as usual, the great lords of Westeros don't give a shit about anyone. They play their game of Thrones, what you say? Another game, what is your game in this episode? And once again at home, I was like, of Thrones? You mentioned your guy, Oscar, Tully. Yep. Our listener, Leia, wrote in to say, every time I see Oscar Tully, he reminds me.

me of a combo of Kimmy Antonelli and Ollie Bierman. Bearman. Bearman. Yeah. Interesting. He definitely He is very similar. Well, so this is an F-1 reference. This is the only reason why it's here. Kimmy leading the driver's championship currently dismaying. He's a teenage prodigy. Mercedes is just so far ahead. But, but is there is there hope? You know, Lando took the last Grand Prix before the break, Joe. It's not all too much for Little Andonaris. I would say that Oscar and Kimmy have very similar hairstyles. So that's part of it. I'm not really seeing the Ali bearman, though Ali is a British driver, so maybe that's part of it. Kimmy is Italian, in case you're wondering. Thanks for this F1 email. I'm looking.

Ollie has like the curl, the tumble of curls. He does. He's like, he's very different. Yeah, I don't see the Ali thing. I don't. Okay. But I do see the Kimmy comp. Great stuff. A lot of sports emails. I'm seeing Daddy Sports. That's just how this guy, that's his email. Wonderful. Great stuff. Love it. You think that Oscar and Kimi should watch Bone Temple together? You think Oscar's been crushing the Bone Temple tape? Big 28 years later, fan, since he's talking about needing bones first temple.

I do think that. That was pretty fun. Let me ask you a question, because Roddy, we get this, and this is a true to text Roddy the ruin idea and a winter wolf's idea more broadly, right? Kristen's like, well, if we fight, a lot of you are going to die too, this is right from the page. Roddy's like, what better way to go than with blade in hand, right? And everyone's like, thank God for the closed captioning. We cheer, right? We're like, yeah, fucking go. What is it? This feels worth interrogating for just a second here that feels different about Roddy and the Winter Wolves readiness to die versus Christens, which we have been so critical of. Because we do receive them in very different ways. I've come to die for the dragon queen. They feel themselves a burden on their own people. So they've come to fight for a cause that they believe in. What is Kristen fighting for?

Yes. Nothing. His own glory and that's it. Yeah. And that's the difference, folks. Great stuff. Kristen gets a little let us begin in there. So we're getting a lot of let us begin actually this season.

No, it's in. Ask to face just Oscar and Roddy. Just a teenager and old man. Fucking Kristen. In the book, it's like three younger men. I know. It is sort of shameful. It is sort of shameful here.

It's funny. The answer comes in the form of one, two, three arrows from Black Alley. Kristen falls and dies. The Riverman swarm. There's only one other guy in Kristen's remaining army who we even kind of know. So we look, we zoom in on Sir Edgar's face as they're all swallowed up. And here is the passage from Fire and Blood about this complete massacre, decimation of every living soul. of the five guys who are left here with Kristen Gould.

The battle that followed was as one-sided as any in the dance. Today was butchery, not battle. Mushroom upon hearing a report of his words, dubbed the fight the butcher's ball. And so it has been known ever since. I thought this episode of television would be called the butcher's ball. Yeah. But it wasn't.

It was called Faceless Men. Mushroom Forever claiming to have coined many pithy names. I really respect it. He's doing two things all the time. claiming credit for naming everything that's cool. Yeah. I'm talking about how big as dick is. And also just like, do you want to know the nastiest?

That's right. The salacious rumors. Yeah. And actually he's also always like, I was the only one who could make Rainier a laugh. So those are the four things he does all the time. Joe. Career goals.

The Kristen Death part. We talked about this on Talk to Thrones, but let's hit it here as well. How did this actual death on screen measure up to you to what we got in the book, what feels right about it, what maybe didn't quite hit the mark for you? And do you want to read the iconic passage for the bad babies? But Longleaf the Lion's Slayer said,

and you're like, who? Don't worry about it. I'll want three more. And up on the ridge, red Rob Rivers, who? Don't worry about it. And two of his archers raised their longbows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking coal in belly, neck, and breast. I'll have no songs about how brave you died,

Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse. Still think it's one of the best lines in the entire canon. No songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. I don't know why we couldn't have gotten it in the episode. Sorry.

It would have been really good. I don't know why we couldn't have gotten it. Our listener James says if they weren't going to include the no songs for you, Taunt and Roddy and Oscar could at least roasted him about his stupid looking hat from season one. Oh, interesting. Thank you, James, for remembering that. Pat, our listener Pat wrote this great long email, but he was like, for my part, if we feel that Cole's death is anticlimactic for not getting that anticipated line of dialogue from fire and blood, maybe that's thematically good, a good choice. In the book, Cole, I expect I'll get a song out of this. Paid of Longleaf, L.O.L. No. Show, book readers, we expect we'll get Longleaf's line out of this. Ryan Condal, L.O.L. No. So, yeah. But instead, it's Black Allie Blackwood, a character that has not been named and has not had a line of dialogue. So it was just like just a. Cool looking woman and, like, you know, is it interesting that Kristen Cole noted misogynist dies at the hand of a woman? Sure. Yeah. Would I like to her to have been a character of some kind? Sure. Yes. Sure. Or just a rando. Like, you know what I mean? There's like, there's like a weird, like, if it had just been like an anonymous archer in the sidebrush, that would work better for me than like a character that we book readers know is a named character, but the show is not.

bothered to make a character. I agree. And so either like fully anonymous or make her a character that show watchers know who that is at the end of the day, you know? I agree. I do think that subbing Black Alley for Red Robb is, is fitting in certain respects, but and also just like the idea that Kristen, who, you know, was making this big grand speech last week about how I am the greatest, the realm's

greatest warrior. Mr. self-proclaimed, I'm the realm's greatest warrior being felled by a who? is the point, as you noted, and is effective. I think that on the show, we just need a little, like a scene or two, which is all we've gotten, as we talked about kind of in anticipation of this moment, all we thought it was going to be Roddy, all we'd gotten with Roddy, and I think that actually would have been enough, like a scene or two, have Black Alley say a couple lines when they're doing the fish feed song. She participated in the fish feed song, like the camera lingers on her.

We got excited, but like. Would it go a long way. in the tent with Roddy and Oscar as they're like talking about strategy or something like that. Just like give her a couple lines or not and just have it be a rando. But this was like a weird middle ground that didn't work either way. Though, again, I've heard from a lot of non-book readers that they were like, oh, I didn't see it coming and I was surprised and I thought it was cool, great. I've also heard from some book readers who were like, I liked it. It worked for me. You know what I mean? And I think that's fine too.

How did not knowing anybody else on Kristen's side impact this for you? Like, I think all the Gwynne Chris and stuff was pretty good, though, as you said, it got like a bit repetitive at the end of the day. Why, if Sir Edgar was going to be like our Gwain stand in for this moment, like, give him some character work in the earlier episodes of the season. Why not? Yeah, I think that that's part of most of the notes on this episode, and I say this, to be clear, with the. self-awareness to say, I've never made a season of television and certainly not one this involved. Yes. Sure.

There are plenty of things where we're like, man, this didn't quite work. What is the solve? I think things like this, like, the solves seem apparent. Are there balancing acts and reasons why they would have been difficult to achieve? Certainly. Well, exactly. And we talked about this a little bit on Talk the Thrones is just sort of like, would I sacrifice any of the Darren and Ormond, you know, emphasis that they made. made, you know, the character-building stuff that they've done over there to get more character-building stuff in the Riverlands?

No. Yeah. Are there other things able to cut? Maybe. But, like, I understand that they made certain choices of where they were devoting their attention. And they chose Tumbledon. Which is working great. It's working fabulously.

And I think it's a little bit, too, of, like, what happens in a vacuum of one scene and storyline and then what feels like maybe a larger creeping thing. If this had been, who's, do we care about Sir Edgar? Do we know any other people? Just that? I don't know that I would have bumped on it as much, but also it's true that we don't have any relationship with or feelings for the gold cloaks who hand over their cloaks to Damon, etc., etc. Right?

So there's actually quite a bit in this episode that's resting on people. We don't know. Hot heatherochromia guy, we'd gotten two moments with previously. And that's not a lot for a scene that massive as the Damon one. But it actually, like, I would at least was like, I've seen this person, but I don't know anything about why he cares about this. And I would argue that most people watching the show, you know, who don't listen to three-hour podcasts or whatever.

Or like, who is that guy? Don't know. Yeah. Right. Like, not even don't remember him from his scene in the High Tower Green in the previous episode. Right. But don't even connect him to the guy who sent the pigeon last week. And you know what I mean?

Sure. Like, the heterochromia is like a good, is a good marker. But I don't know that people are watching. Yeah, and that's an interesting thing in general, because I will say my relationship to that type of thing more broadly without sounding like an asshole about it is I'm like, I don't mind, we've talked about this before. I don't mind when shows want to make us work hard. I think that shows demanding that we pay attention and knowing that they are presenting us with a text that is so complex and nuanced and entangled in a fun way, right? like you're going to, you can't be looking at your phone while you're watching House of the Dragon. I think that's great. That's part of what I love about it, right?

That when it demands your attention, it will reward your attention. That's okay. The, we need to actually, like, know who these people are and have had time with them. And I think that was just a little bit off in this episode. You know who we do now? Everybody on the Black Small Council. And I'd say this is the opposite. problem where we've heard them have these exact debates a lot of times. I don't know, because like,

what I will say is that versus some of the other small council, like Ironrod, you know, like, you know, like there are just other members of the previous small council that like nobody knew who they were. But I think they've done a good job. We know who Orwell is. Masaria is. Who Sabah the Freya is, who Torrey is. I know that's not the point you're making. I understand you're like the sameness of the conversation. But like, I just want to give them their flowers that like they've filled every chair on that counsel with someone that I, like, understand who they are and their motivations. And the, in general, interaction in those sequences this season, I think has actually been delightful. Highly entertaining. Even something like in this episode, Damon throwing the goblet at Torn.

Torin and making it talking about his indigestion was hysterical. This scene included the prophecy thing, which was the most confound, one of the most confounding things the show has done in its entire run and certainly the most confounding decision of the season and really bugged me. that took me out of the scene entirely, and I don't mind admitting that. I think that this scene walked an interesting, on a tightrope that I, I'm intrigued by this balancing act. Because one of the things in episode three, which we considered immensely successful and accomplished, that we really loved, was that episode three made a decision to do the what was Aragorn's tax policy episode, right? what does it really look like to sit there and rule and have to make these decisions? And part of the answer to that is that you don't just talk about it once, right?

So that's true. You're going to have to keep having the same conversation every day there's a new decision. You don't just check something off your to-do list if you're ruling the Seven Kingdoms and then move on. That's a little different from Masaria, Damon, et cetera, trading kind of the same, like, you're an idiot for this reason, back and forth to each other. and then a big, like, okay, the air is out of the balloon because Reneira invoked, yet again, my father would have poured it, which I think just feels like going back to the story well one too many times for the scene to feel like it has momentum, even if it has logical mooring,

in what it would be like to be in that role and in that room. I largely agree with you. It's tricky. I largely agree with you. And I want to mention. We were talking to a pal who is a showrunner over the weekend, and he let us know that episode three, Renier is a sort of day in the life of ruling, he's like, showrunners call that the showrunner episode.

Great stuff. Which I had never heard before, but just sort of like an episode about how hard it is to showrun and all the millions of, you know, they are asking you about the rats chewing the candles when you're a showrunner. You have to, like, answer every single question all the time on set. I thought that was a really fun insight. And if you don't, probably you're going to hear about it later, like Rainer does when hearing petition. And then she's like, I'll light a candle and they're like, what candles, Renira? Anyway, I largely agree with you at the same time. And again, I've never run a show.

So how do you do this? But at the same time, we were praising the show for showing us this like incremental change in Reneira's demeanor and choices versus. you know, the Bell's, DeNaris, sort of like a switch of the flip of the switch. And so we want this sort of slow roll, slow boil of a character making compromises after compromise after compromise. I do think there are ways, to your point, to vary it, so it's not just like Masaria being like,

the people are hungry and Dima being like the cops need to get paid. That's the thing. Yeah. Because I really do admire, appreciate, And one, the examination of what it actually looks like to try to hold this thing together. I think that the show's decision to show us that is crucial. So I don't want to talk out of both sides of my mouth with it. I think that it's, again, a matter of the show has actually shown us a number of times this season how well it can do that.

And so this sequence here just like didn't quite measure up to that. How do you feel about Tumbledon on the two weeks? Not the tomorrow on the two weeks. Anything that has anything to do with Tumbledon is working for me. Got to say. Tumbledon on the morrow. Not on the morrow. Not on the morrow.

Tumbled in two weeks. Yep. Which would make it the finale. That's right. Which feels right. And that feels... It does. But it's just funny.

I just thought that was a funny sort of like in-universe thing. It does fuck a lot of the travel times, I will say, for all the sets of characters to be like the Riverlanders are two weeks away from Tumbledon. and then like other characters are zooming around without dragons. But yeah, yes. You know, that's fine. I just thought it was like a cute sort of like, well, this is an update on where we are.

Yeah, we'll get to Tumbledon in two weeks. Don't worry. Speaking of Tumbledon, Reneer, you know, who had spent a couple episodes saying, what is, what is Ormond trying to do? Has started to really see Ormond's intentions very clearly. And Reneer's read on it in this scene is correct. And we will hear Ormond voice his version of this later,

the bite by bite sequence, right? Reneer's clocking it perfectly here. He means to show the realm that I cannot govern even my own seat. The great house's watch while he humiliates me. Now that is what Ormond is trying to do. He's either trying to invoke Reneira into burning our own people, the Magor returned, or make Reneer appear ineffectual and in either outcome ensure that the gold cloaks, etc.

are too reluctant, too trepidacious to continue fighting for her. So Reneera sees now how Ormner. is operating. Will that position, Roneira to challenge him effectively? We'll find out. But I think she's got his measure here. Interesting gamble for him.

Because, like, if she just decides to torch Tumbledon, you know, Orman Flambay. Which is what Gawain says to him, right? He's like, you call the bluff, but then what? You take a step. Yeah.

She burns you. And that was also one of those satisfying moments where we bring our history across the canon in a way the characters literally can't possessed, right? Ormond can't travel through time to see DeNaris, but when we hear him saying, like, she's a woman squeamish. First of all, that's a delicious Ormond character beat because he's like... He's the most squeamish. Well, that, for sure. And also, he's like, it's not even that he thinks a ruler wouldn't burn their own people. He just thinks a woman wouldn't have the

balls to do it. Which is classic. It's so funny when I was like, Danny, Ormond. Yeah. It's just funny when I was like, oh, in case he was not repugnant enough. Yes. We added homophobia to the mix. And Chris was like, and misogy. I was like, the misogyny has been here. That's been there. That's a foundation. Now we're just building structures on top of it. We get the just genuinely iconic and hysterical indigestion moment, which was wonderful.

And then I think very puzzling thing happens. Well, yes. What happens before that, though, is when he's like, you know, the battle with a digestion thing. I think that's interesting because Alan's like, hey, I guess I've been to war. Sure. This idea sucks. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Alan's like, you can't, you can't fling that at me. And Alan has moved very quickly from, I'm here even though I didn't want to be and I told my dad that, into observing, into offering counsel and sharing feedback. And yeah, like Sabitha and Toram with their snide, oh, and a dragon, oh, which again, like they're kind of right. Actually, they're basically doing.

the hubris of control or read of the Targaryens, which is amusing. But yeah, and then like at the end of the scene later on when Damon is exiting and Allen is, you know, offering to basically solve the, wait, you guys went and did this without an Army note from earlier in the season.

He's like, I've got, let me help the Gaymen. Yeah, and Damon's like, fuck off. So, as usual, Team Black here needs, the small council really needs a corporate retreat. They've got some stuff to work through. And some of it should happen collectively. And I would say some of it should happen in private. Yeah.

And that brings us to Damon invoking the prophecy in front of everyone in the room, which we should check out. Carlos, let's see this. You wait but a while longer. At what cost? Remember the prophecy. Your sacred calling, whatever you do in its service is justified. Okay. No one will talk me out of thinking this makes no sense.

Is anyone try? No. No. Joe, I don't get this. Did the show forget that this was a secret? Did Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and House of the Dragon kind of forgot that this was a secret? Like, I'm really struggling with this. It is canon that other characters don't know about this.

It's canon in the wider story universe and it's canon inside of the show, right? Season 1 finale. We have to watch Renira and Damon have this horrifying, abusive interaction because Viseris didn't tell Damon. Ruler to air, right? We watch later on the precipice of Rook's rest. Reneera share the prophecy with Jace and say, there's something I need to tell you, Jase,

something I should have told you when you first became out of the throne. It's a secret. Right, and we've been wondering, like, when and if and how she's going to spend any time with her sleeping son, Joffrey. Maybe she'll whisper it in his ear while he's sleeping. Or maybe, like, writing a little scroll and tuck it under the pillow. But yeah, it is a deep-dyed, dark secret. And Damon just saying it at the table. Do you think it's because he took that, like, ayahuasca trip in Haren Hall?

And he's like, I saw it. I saw a vision. Maybe everyone should know about it. Maybe. But they need to say that. They need to say that Damon thinks other people should know about the prophecy for him to say that. Or if he's going to do that, this is what's even more baffling to me from, like, a TV creation. No one's like, what prophecy?

Yeah. No one's like, and Reneer doesn't even have. have like a huge reaction shut the fuck up i can't believe you fucking said that or a conversation with them later where she's like you just said the secret prophecy at the table what's wrong with you like the episode is acting like it's no big deal that damon just dropped this highly secret of prophecy right the middle of the table it's not even like it's not even like oops damon the impetuous like blurted out of secret it's like nobody's like what prophecy and riner is like fuck you in your big mouth like yeah you know it it it it's like dave like it it it's

Lacey on the red carpet of Spider-Man. Yeah, it's just kind of impossible to understand. Yeah. And also, as we talked about at the beginning of this series, this is a introduction, the idea of Egg on the Conqueror's dream, the Song of Ice and Fire, this prophecy that has passed down. We're like, okay, wait, so interesting. When we think about the larger Song of Ice and Fire story universe, when and where and how

was this lost? We've been doing a lot of like book theory section, spoiler section. speculation about that along the way. This is one of those scenes that, in addition to everything you just outlined, all of which is extremely valid, there's kind of no explanation for this many people hearing this. And then the information not spreading further, we're in a room full of gossipers and tea spillers and the mistress of whispers and spiders. Torin-manorly can't wait to tell everyone.

Exactly. How is Masario going to use this information? Orwhile, who's as the grandmaister, his accounts of these historical events are one of the foundations on which a text like fire and blood, the accounts inside of it are based. Orwhile never follows up on this or tells anyone this never makes it into fire and blood. It just doesn't make sense. And so it's the kind of choice. This is part of what really threw me with the episode overall. A lot of these other things, I'm like, eh, we have a note, but you can get past it.

This is the kind of thing that gives me a larger sense of, like, unease. And I hope it is an outlier in the season. I also think it was strange in a similar note, not nearly so high stakes. I'm not, I feel less like world-shaking about it than you do, but I support how much it's rocked you. I just have PTSD, I think. I felt similarly about Jane Aaron lecturing Raina about the secrecy of her identity and, like, being in the veil. in front of a bunch of courtiers. You know what I mean?

Same. She might have faith in her people being like rock solid. But like if she's so scared about what's going to happen when Reneira finds out that Raina is there, that she slapped a dragon rider, you know what I mean? The Targaryian princess is like, you know. Fucking crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

In front of so many people and her dogs. Her loose-like dogs. And they can't keep their mouths shut. They're barking all over the place. Go on. So. Yeah, I had the same thought on the Jane Aaron thing. It's just that falls into the bucket to me of a character making a choice that isn't sensible.

That's like, and the show making a choice that isn't sensible. If you're so worried about detection, go have that conversation private. You even want to do something as risky and reckless as having Raina brought to you. Don't do it in the high hall. They're like, we just build the one set, though. Empty the hall. Yeah, but like the fact that that's the reason is like. Yeah.

I mean, the mural looks great. Yeah, it does. Getting to hear the fading scream through the moon door. We love it. We love to be there. We love to be in the eerie. Should Jane Eyre would have done that? Absolutely not.

Okay. Damon cites the field of fire here. And Reneira, this is where she says, yeah, but my father would abort it. Abor it. Abor it. But, Joe, Reneer is not suggesting doing nothing. Mm-mm. Wants to send assassins, not dragons, wants to send knives.

Now, this is smart, right? We're a couple episodes removed from We'll send her over man and root them out house to house. So the idea of how this wall go is evolving in real time, but still Reneer is looking for solutions to address the problem, right? Not be passive, be active, address the problem, but do it without burning Tumbledton. Reneer is seeking that kind of path.

And Damon's like, great, I'll go. She's like, not you, Dana. Incredible. And I like that Reneer is also sort of... But I want to play dress-up. And she's like, you can play dress up at home in the streets of Kings Landing and barely tuck your Targaryen-Harean hair. up under the helmet. I know.

You can really see his hair. Everybody's, and this is Mr. Murder Club. Like, he's the master of disguise. Hugh Hammer abducts a cart from a man who has a hat. And he's like, nope, just platinum hair out as I infiltrate Tumpleton. Everybody's got some work to do on the disguise front. And I would say Tumpleton on the security front. The fake Baratheans and Hugh getting in back to back.

And they're like, we've got our little book that we're writing things in. Unbelievable. So the most effective assassin has a plain face. This is what Reneera says to Damon, which, and isn't this the problem? Because Gwain's like, not hot enough. That's right. Too plain of a face. That's not what she means.

I know how probably this other guys. Interesting kind of the mirror to Ormond's tactics, right? The idea of using the incognito, just out in flea bottom citizens of King's Landing to avoid detection. that kind of mirror was interesting. Facesomen. Facesless men? Not literally. Not literally.

Yet. I mean, a lot of people are, many people are theorizing. Yes. That there are faceless men involved in this. I don't think that's what's going on here. Yeah. Adam has been asking me that the last couple weeks are the faceless men part of how all these gold cloaks are being killed. So I think I understand why.

No, yeah. The theory has been out there. I just, I don't think. I think that actually undercuts. Ormans, like, intelligence and powers of persuasion and sort of, like, the overall message of, like, people can be bought. Right. And that sort of stuff. Yes.

I do like the idea that there are people inside of the gold cloaks that were turned. Sure. Because not only were—these cops were killed in their HQ. You know what I mean? The feasts were traitors. Like, those guys were all, you know, so, like, it feels, like, slightly, like, an inside job. Yeah. Interesting.

I have no information on that. I'm just— A note I'll have for Damon. later, by the way, on that front is if you're trying to rally the troops, don't do it in the murder dead. Near where all the guts were? I'm sure it still stinks. Well, that wasn't his, like, that wasn't his plan.

His plan was to have a sad boy moment. And then, uh-oh, everyone quit. Our listener Jane on the way blocked front. Yes, tell me. Said, is it my imagination or is Reneera's Brady hairstyle becoming more twisty, turning and insane as her rule and paranoia become more and more difficult and pronounced? I defer to you on this. I haven't tracked it.

I'm noting the like sort of labyrinthine little braid she's got in the back of her hair. Interesting. So you're noting the labyrinthian braid. Would you also have noted how many swords to the man you had if you were in this position? Curious. Curious about this. I ask you because. No.

You wouldn't. I think you would. I think if every single meeting you had with your counsel involved, where's my army, you would. You would know how many swords you had. But that is not the case here. Reneer is like, how many Valarian swords do we still have? And Alan, that's the... Mallory, I don't read emails.

You know this about me. That's true. You know that I would ask that question. And you would be like, Joanna, we've only said it in every meeting. It's fine to ask the question. You would have. Maybe. You would have.

Maybe. Reneer wants Alan to go ask. Corlis for more. Valarian man. And that will go great. As we will see you later, Corlis is going to be thrilled. Someone else is a red keep, though. I mean, yeah.

Alan is able to reach four-less in a very effective way. Yeah. Even though he doesn't think of-y-old people. Alan, Adam, Bala. Those are the three people she probably could have sent. Bella's like, I'm busy. I've got my own burdens and also some other stuff to do. So is Alan.

They're both getting quite busy. House Barathean is back, Joe. So this is a payoff. There have been Barathean mentions in multiple episodes in the middle stretch of this season. We had the episode four mentioned, Bold John, bringing the letter, oh, their excuses, right?

And then we had the Ormond moment with Darren in episode five. Oh, Boris Barathean himself. You're the sign he's been waiting for. Okay, the Baratheans are here. Great. It's great to see them. They're not getting involved.

Because Boris Barathean's like, I'm going to do this thing where I sit out this dance of dragons and we'll see where the chips fall. I'm busy in Dorn. D'Ring King Time. Dorn's still in the mix. I did really love the spice and the strength that Reneira showed here to say,

why is Forrest taking this bandit more seriously than me as a threat? Right? That's like, yeah, tell them that this is bullshit. Tell them that this is not acceptable. Encouraging. With the Targaryens, however, it's always worth us tracking when we tip into a rule through fear place and how. scary and dangerous that is. Why? I mean, I not sound like Damon Targaryen, but why else have six

dragons if you're not going to send a dragon to go like, you know, toast the tops of Storm's End or go over to Castley Rock and squeeze them for some money? You know what I mean? Like, why are we not extorting, you know? This is the eternal conundrum because, and this is part of, again, the tragedy, Reneera and T.M. Black is in this place and we will hit this note yet again many times throughout this episode. We're giving your supporters what you need. The original appeal to Boris, at the end of season one, he's like, I'm going to go with Amon who brought me a hand for marriage. I'm not going to go with...

And the bigger dragon. Yeah, he's that much bigger. He perked Vagar outside in the rain. That was such a cool shot. Oh, my God. I'm not going to go with Luke who came here and said, sorry, sir, I'm already betrothed. And also here's a letter for my mom telling you exactly what you have to do.

And he's like, I can't read. Exactly. Remember earlier in the season when I was like try some pictures? What a dickhead. That was incredible. This made me think a little bit of Rainier and... And Damon and the, and then there, butrodo, episode, season one, episode seven, talking about, like, tyranny, basically. I will not be a tyrant.

I will not rule through terror, Bernera said. And Damon replied, a tyrant rules only through terror. If a king is infeared, he is powerless. If you were to be a strong queen, you must cultivate love and respect. Yes, but your subjects must fear you. We talked about this at the time, the Vesaris, not Vassarous House of the Dragon, Game of Thrones, Vesaris, Shadow of a Snake, Vassaris, in Thrones, who can rule. who can rule without wealth or fear or love as he's like completely just disintegrating, right? And then we think of Danny, you're a dragon be a dragon, the Olena pep talk.

But then, all right then, let it be fear, was the tipping point of no return. So this feels like something to watch with Renira. But when she stood up to the Baratheon envoys, I was like, yeah, fucking tell them they're wrong. Kind of, but like, I mean, all she got for it was some costumes. Give me your belt? Yeah, give me your belt is a great line, by the way. Give me your belt. In terms of giving your clothing, like, that's a really fun way to write that.

You think this is going to go over well with the Baratheans when they find out what exactly Renera used those? They're busy fighting the vulture king. Who the fuck cares? And at least she didn't kill any Baratheans. But like, here's the deal. Okay, if we're not toasting the tops of Storm's End, can we at least not just like continually fly our drive? Like, Adam and Bealaz, you're searching for Vagar. make sure you always fly over Storm's End menacingly and you say real nice castle there,

it would be a real shame if it melted like Haren Hall. You know what I mean? I like this, yeah. So that's like, you know, just the threat, not the actual toasting. I like this. This is how I would rule. I was going to say this is eliminating, folks, instead of letting Hugh and Ulf share their shifts and alternate shifts for Tumbleton, send one of them?

Sure, but she's got like plenty. Damon, you're so in my way. Damon wants to go out there. Go toast some castles. He wanted to do that. She's like, stay here and fix this inside our gates. They're a mess. Here's the thing you know about me.

Do I read emails? No. But would I be better at diplomacy than Reneering? Yes. Oh, you'd be elite. Elite. I know. Jace-esque.

How to make friends. You do. Keep them as another question. So like, so make friends with Burroughsbury. Barathean. Make friends with Lady Joanna Lanister. Like, make, you know, like, your dream. Absolutely to be besties with her. I don't want to be friends with Boris Barathean. He seems like a...

If I need something from him, I'll do it. And she does. She needs something from him. She sure does. She sure does. Oh, man. This is Runeer's whole thing, and this is the Targaryen's whole thing. This entitlement to rule. Yeah. And, uh, and for her, it comes with his added side sauce of divine, uh, right. you know. Boy, I'd say it's gone from being an added sauce to...

The brew itself. The whole fucking cauldron. Yeah. Speaking of, Joanna, this very... Beautiful transition. This very question, how to earn loyalty. And this is a great through line of the episode. We have the literal desertion of the gold cloaks with Damon shortly.

But this general assessment, this has been a central focus of the season, how do you earn loyalty in the first place? How do you keep it? Are you even conscious of needing to work to keep it and to maintain it? But also, like, what is it worth in its different forms? If it's just a pledge, a vow, can you count on it? Does somebody who has given you their loyalty actually care about the same thing that you do genuinely? Your cause? This is a mistake, I think, that Damon and Renera and Orman and Agon, all of the people, all of the ruling elite make all the time, right?

And the story intentionally. This gets us back to, like, one of our favorite Jora ideas. Like, they don't, has it rained, you know? Well, I mean, and similarly, I would say, like, the Lannister rule, you know what I mean? No question. Burrathian rule. But like, but like when Tywin's around, Tywin, who's essentially their vagar or whatever, like when Tywin's around. How are Tywin's toe beans?

Show us your tobyans. Taiwan's Tywin, Lanister. Do you think for the Vermethorn and Silver Wing show toadings for each other? No question. You know what I would. delighted to get the nozzle in those two. Vermithor and Silver Wing, as Ulf and Hugh do, they're changing of the guard on, you know, sad sack hill.

Beautiful there, by the way. When Vermethore and Silver Wing, they don't even have, like, a tent. They're just, like, sleeping in the rough, you know what I mean? When Vermithor and Silver Wing greet each other, and Vermithor and Silver Wing, a mated pair, they belong to Good Queen Alessanne and Jaharis, right? So, like, they've been together for, like, a century. Um, you go, Um, you know what I kind of...

For me, sweet silver win. Nope. That's a you thing. But that being said, yeah. Given that I believe that dragons are cats. Of course. In addition to the nuzzle, I would like a little grooming. A little shared grooming.

A little lick? Why not? No, come on. Come on. The perfect height for kissing. Come on. Yeah. Not too tall for kissing.

Speaking of which, hot pies. Hot pies. Hot pies was delightful. All dreaming of hot pies. Alfe dreaming of the farmers market market day. I love this. I do miss my hometown farmer's market. I need to get into the LA farmer's market scene.

It's a robust scene. I know. There's a lot for you to discover. I know. It's just not as pastoral as the ones I left behind. No, it's not. But I'll find my way. I believe you will.

I believe you will. A little existential crisis and some commentary on class advancement or the lack thereof from our guy, Alf here. All the things they used to take for granted, I loved, loved, loved this conversation between Ulf and Hugh and I loved this reflection from Wolf because he, Tom Bennett, the performance has been so entertaining the whole way. And Olf is such a consistent source of humor. There was something deep and sincere that he was posing here, right? have tracked throughout the season his budding or something like I can't live in a title right this has been present and mounting the thing that he says here but we're not the same are we and you think he's going to say like our dragons and our glory what hue actually will say right when he reunites

with cat using reunites extremely loosely and generously there we weren't in service back then right so very close of him yeah yes we were we weren't You weren't, you know, we weren't, we didn't have the queen being like, your belly belongs to me, right? Your body belongs to me. But also, like, and this is something we've been tracking all season and just like in general in the West Roecey world. But like this idea of, I'm thinking a lot about the monkeys pie idea because we covered obsession on rewatchables, right? Careful what you wish for. But careful what you wish for has been something we've always tracked from the very beginning of Thrones from Brand, wanting, dreaming of being a knight and santa, dreaming of being the queen and all these other things is just sort of.

of like, what is this idealized version of what are you dreaming of? What, you know, what tales have you been told of chivalry and courtly romance and all these other stuff? And then what is the harsh reality? Right. Aria, you got your sword, but what do you have to do with it? You know what I mean? Like all of these devastating things that happen to, especially the start children as sort

of like, you know, because who gives a shit about Joffrey's dreams? But, like, you know, the stark children has this idea of, like, were raised in the sort of the bubble of Winterfell in this sort of, like, kind, gentle, not you, John, but like other, the other stark kids, like this sort of kind, gentle, you know, upbringing. And let's talk about the old tales and all this, you know, things, you know, and then getting out into the wider world and especially down to Kings Landing and finding out the truth of it, right? So, like, Raina in this episode saying, I dreamed of having a dragon, and now I'm separated

from everyone I ever wanted. Can't even see my sister. Hugh and all for like, we were already, we were, we were, we were, we're Targaryen bastards. And all our lives, we probably thought, what if I wasn't a Targaryian bastard? What if I was, you know, a full-blooded Targaryen dragon rider? And here it is and you don't get your wife. No. You're going to ask to carry the name Targaryen and the Queen's going to laugh in your face.

You don't even get to have a pint with your buds. The lads. You get, fucking. Not an hour with the lads. Slap down on the street. beaten into the fucking open source for all to see by Damon Targary. The open subs and the production design is very proud of. They look good.

Yeah. They did look good. You know, so that's just like, you know, and and please bring it all the way up to the top. Bernera. Right. I'm going to sit on the Iron Throne. And the Iron Throne's like, actually, I'm going to cut the shit out of you. You know?

Yeah. I did really love, I mean, as always Emma Darcy is just so thoughtful and profound in discussing Reneira's arc and the description of, let me find the quote, the description of the throne as hostile. I think Reneer perceives it as part of a broader hostility. I think she experiences the throne and the crown and counsel the sort of vestiges of leadership as hostile. You finally got there and that's how it feels. Yeah, monkeys pop, great shout. It is interesting, like the through lines and consistency there in the characters who are in these radically different positions. Their circumstances now, but their histories to your point,

I think the show has done a very good job of exploring that. Reneer and Allison. Time to discuss Escape Gate. Boy, their scenes were intense this week. Targ guards, torches in hand, find Allison and Helena on the tunnel. So that was not, the getting locked and lost in the tunnels at the end of last episode was not about actually imperiling them. It was about outing the escape. Isn't that?

It's a cut directly from the Alice. Isn't Hanky blowing in the wind to them in the tunnels, right? Yes, it's an earlier discovery at the very beginning of the episode after Butcher's Ball. Reneera is flat out dismayed that her prisoners are not more grateful to her for the nature of their relatively luxurious confinement and for her merciful. I'm sorry, I'm a little bit on Reneer's side here. I'm on Allison's side firmly because Renira reneged on the agreement. Full stop.

They had an agreement for Agon, the usurper head on a pike. Wasn't Allison's fault and she got them to lay down there. She got the High Tower soldiers to lay down their arms. And that's why they're not. She got Eamon to leave. What else could she have possibly done? What else could she have done?

Oh, they're in a castle. They've got people attending to their every needs and they get to go out in the garden. Like, these are golden handcuffs, honestly. Outrageous. These are golden handcuffs and go let just lightly toast storms end. What an insight into your policy. Just like two or three on the toaster.

You know what I mean? Okay, yeah, like, so we barely, it's not even going to be really crunchy. No, no. Just like I like caramel. Warming it. We're warming it. Yeah. Just so the butter can melt.

Yeah. And the knife can, you know, the knife can slide across it. Okay. So you are. This is fair to say you are and have always been. Yeah. When Kristen, after, you know, the march toward through, okay, we're collecting, Rosby, start, start, dust, get down, marching toward Rook's Rest, middle of season two,

the old, you should thank me for it. You were like, exactly. No, because he's Team Green. And I'm too black. You're the past. The best. Allison reveals what she can no longer even attempt to hide from Runeiari here, right? Helena is pregnant.

Tough. Fascinating sequence here. I thought this was great. Reneira is quite wounded that Allison thinks that she would be a baby killer, a half-sister killer. She says, still you insist on misjudging me. And then, as Allison notes, the inevitability of this, the endless challenges, what will become necessary. Reneira moves fairly quickly inside of this scene from taking great, not like totally unreasonable offense, given that they've known each other for the bulk of their life. lives into pretty quickly proving Allison's point. Has to answer the escape. Has to more strictly can find them.

I mean, she's already had the idea to send assassins after Darren. It's not assassins after Ormond. It's assassins after Darren. Yeah. Going to cut that kid in half. Yeah. Gonna cut him in half. I didn't and now I must, Reneira says. I didn't and now I must. She cannot be seen. If she is known to carry a gonzer, I will be forced to do what you fear. So this language of, and it's not, it's not untrue the reality of the position, the reality of the challenges, the reality of what the realm will require, of what my supporters will require will lead us to this place. But that is, of course, the point Allison has been making the entire season. Which Allison reminds her up in this episode doesn't go super great. Allison uses the word cruel here.

It feels very purposeful given that we've been talking about Magor the cruel a lot this season. And Ranira the cruel. ...invoked this Magor returned concern. I thought that line when Alice is... Allison's like, well, I'll accept, I will accept this judgment, but Helena, Helena, Helena, Renera saying, my judgment does not require your acceptance was bone-chilling. But also kind of baller, honestly. Yeah, it was great.

Yeah, that's a matter of undeniable authority. Season 2 episode 2 was called Renier the Cruel. I was like the Harold, little auto PR tour with baby baseball neck. But that can't be a future episode title name. They've already used it. That's right. That's right. Um, yeah, listen, Reneira, I'm rooting for you.

I agree. I agree. I think that Reneer is saying my authority is not going to be challenged, is, like, heartening to see we are just in such a perilous position. I've just also seen you type that into slack, like constantly. My judgment does not require your acceptance. You don't look at slack. That's true.

I do eventually, just like usually a couple hours later that you need to. How do you feel about your new avatar? Great. How do you feel about it? Wonderful. Yeah. It's always an exciting moment. Every two years.

Yeah, because you really commit when you make the change. Yeah, it was Simon Strong for two years. It was Lyman Beesbury for two years. And now it's Torren Manderly's turn. He got there quickly, but I think he deserves it. I usually, I think you know this about me. You fall. You fall fast.

No, I usually pick my favorites before the season started. That's right. Like when Simon Russell Beale was like in the trailers, I was like, this is my guy. You know what I mean? You were? and bees I was early too as well. So beautiful bees, sweet bees. We miss them still.

I play my flag on Torn Mandurley, Dodger of goblets, you know? He did dodge that goblet. Oh, Damon, you petty brat. My God. Reneer's like, let me just remind you that my entire court thinks you're the enemy. And to you, do not try me. Allison being like, we were girls together, remember. Allison listens to the pod.

I think it's clear. We were girls together. I think it's clear. Masaria doing some, I would say not super subtle ass cover in here. But Eats must. Who fancies herself a woman of the people. That's right. Is like, that servant kill her.

Listen, you can only be a woman of the people as long as it shoots you and allows you to dunk on Damon. Yeah. Once you are at risk and you have some loops to close, you got to kill the handmaid. Okay. So I say lightly torched the top of a building, you say maids and also the Riverlanders who died for theater, they should die. Boy, really blinks and brings out the bloodlust inside of us all, this show. I did make a comment on Masaria's clothing and two things. Like, we got some emails of people being, like, noting that Masaria is sort of just like looking fancier and fancier every week.

And I do think it's like, you know, you're dressed for the job you want. Like, you know, that's true. But like, I think it's worth noting, again, that like the woman of the people is just sort of like, yeah, but some fine silk robes for me. Also, a question in general is just sort of like, we're having a money flow problem. Are there some things we could sell in the castle to, you know, pay the cops if we need to? Here's the thing. Yeah? Everything they could have sold.

They burned. Everything they could have sold. Everything they could have put on eBay when you're burned in a giant fond fire. Yeah. Do you want a vintage a targ tower

sigil banner? They're not here anymore, but if you're a collector, don't you want this targ tower banner? They could have made a killing on eBay. What a great call. Sinoya Mizuno who plays Masaria.

Yeah. Pregnant during the season. And I think that accounts for some of the, like, different clothing that she's wearing. Good stuff. They're hiding him. Like Helena, they're hiding a pregnancy.

Got it. Masaria's hiding her secrets too, and Roanera doesn't pick up on it. Oh, did, uh, did, I liked the, I liked the jaw working. You could see the jaw muscle working on Masaria. Like, did, uh, did Allison, did anyone out? Does anyone, oh, she, okay, I told you that Helena's pregnant. Does anyone else? No, did Allison mention, did anyone else know?

No, no. No, no. I was like, this is, Masaria, get it together. Is that, is that what you're like on Coke? What I just saw there. I've never done cocaine. Yeah.

I don't think I should be allowed to do cocaine. I would be like Craig. Yeah. I would be like Craig in the Prague episode of Succession, just like, Pff. I hope you don't die. I would literally explode. No, you have to understand.

Maryland Terrapin family. So I grew up on, on, on, on, on, biased stories. No cocaine for me. I don't know.

Interested in plenty of other things, but not cocaine. I don't know anything you just said. Let me know if you want to do mushrooms at some point. I was offered mushrooms recently at a party, and I was like, this doesn't feel like the moment. But.

everyone, it just seemed like they had to become a very normal thing. They're the chocolate. Oh, why? Yeah. Oh, you're familiar. I'm from the Bay Area. New to me. Outside of having seen that episode of the studio.

New to me. I follow questions. I'll ask you later. Okay. Great. I look forward to taking this off, Mike, and having a... Thank you for telling me about mushrooms. Incredible.

Gold Clooks. Hand it over the cloaks. Damon, just hanging out. I don't think my nephew listens to these podcasts. I hope he just listened to the Odyssey podcast, I hope. Don't do drugs. You're the cool aunt, though. Don't do drugs.

I mean, cops. Let's talk about some cops. Damon hanging out in the Feast for Traders murdered and the gold cloaks arrive, some of them. And Damon vows to avenge this atrocity, even if it takes a hundred years. Here's the rub. Nobody he's talking to has a hundred years. They've got knives to dodge in sketchy alleyways, and they've got kids and families to feed. Mistaking your cause for the thing that's most important to the people you need continues to be a challenge.

The problem is that Hightower Heterchromia Hottie killed, like, the most loyal of the cops. You know what I mean? And Damon's like, I gave you these gold cloaks, and these guys are like, here we'll give it back to you. They're like, you were doing keg stands with Sir Luther, but not with me. And the audience at home is like, yeah, I don't know you either. Yeah, never heard of me. I don't know you either. I saw you in a scene.

Though I do like that they picked an older guy. So, like, in theory, he could have been part of Damon's regime earlier. Sure. Says, find another way to make coin. So Damon, part of his, like, desperate attempt here to keep them is, well, what are you going to do when the blades who've been killing your fellows? come for your children when the cutthroats come for your family for your wives

and we get that kind of close to the I'll find another way to make coin which I think made me at home nervous that I would hope made Damon nervous I hope he's thinking this way oh could you possibly mean the coin from Ormond with King Darren's face printed on it

because Joe that solves both those problems Darren dollars is that a thing let's go with let's go with Darren Dimes because Danny Dimes, Daniel Jones, is one of the quarterbacks that George has blogged about over the years. Okay. Danny Dimes. And so I think Darren Dimes.

Got it. It's the way to go. That solves at all. You're not going to have to worry about Orman's assassins if you're working for them and you have the money. So that would be a concern, I think, for Team Black. We'll see. What's your counter, Team Black? What's your counter?

The counter is just a rousing speech. And, you know, we got the prior episode, you know, does the word of Prince of Flea Bottom, rogue prince still carry the weight it used to. And Damon was really riding high for him. And I'm thinking, yeah, I've still got it. Yeah, it does. And here it's like, oh, real record scratch. Maybe not. It's not enough.

It's not enough to just grant them with your presence and make a speech and hope that they can wait 100 years. They're not going to. Here we are. Alan. Not enough. More convincing, ultimately. Not enough either for Corliss to be like. Um, I did love that Alan said the thing that we were all saying a couple weeks ago when Corlis was like, and I don't know if you were called this, but he was like, your son was a bastard!

Remember that? Oh, my God. Yeah. Were there more witnesses? Were there more witnesses to Corlis shouting your sons or bastards to Renira or more witnesses to Damon? Casually mentioning the prophecy. I think if we're counting the dogs, it's Jane and. and slapping Raina, most witnesses.

Yeah, so Corliss is like, I don't want to send my men we're having too much fun killing pirates, which was like half of the House the Dragon Belt episode was about them singing the bear and the maiden fair. Yeah. There was a lot of stuff about the bonding via song and I was like, we didn't see that. It was like a second at the very end of the background. I didn't even like know. I didn't clock if they were doing the bear of the main fair at all.

And you know I always have my ears peeled for Baron the Maiden Faire. You do. You do. So she asks more of me. And then Alan says it is I who asks. And then he's like, okay, do as you have said, her needs are endless. I really loved. I mean, see what you sound's always great. But the emphasis on endless.

Endless. Endless. The frustration, the resentment, how helpful that is. But Corlis being like, she won't even, you know, acknowledge you. And Alan, like all of us at home is like, nor did you. for my entire life. Yeah, it's a good note. It's a good bit of feedback, and it does work in the moment.

And then he's like, Thailand Lannister's alive, and then we do nothing with that information. I have questions and no answers. So I assume that we will do something with that information because it would be crazy not to. We can talk about some of the possibilities more later. Presumably, Alan will share that, and Team Black will send some troops to Rooks. I mean, it would be nuts not to try that after this was shared. My response was more like corlous. knowing that. As mad as he is, he's throwing himself into his work. He's moving these bodies by hand.

Okay. He knows we're one of the chief advisors and moneymen and political figures for the other side and didn't tell Renera. That is like a big deal. Being guilty in real time and to sharing this with Alan is. Is it a bigger deal than him just like leaving his job? Kind of. Because I think, I think, I mean, no. I mean, no. I. I guess, but kind of yes. Because to me, this feels like a, okay, when he left and Alan was like, what are you doing? And Corliss says, I can help more this way, all that. It's a problem.

And it speaks to the wrist. We don't know when he found out that Tyler, like, maybe. You think it was 10 minutes ago from the pirates, like right there? Maybe. A pirate was like, arg, matey. Tyler Lantersters alive, you know, so like that. That would be the only acceptable version of it. If he found out a second before this exchange with Allen.

Because if he has known this information for days, and no matter how mad he is and how he needs to get his escape and work through it, to not send a raven with this update for a nero would be, I mean, it's treason. Let's just tell ourselves that he just found out. All right, I'm going to throw another question at you in real time here because you've put the possibility that this is recent use in my mind. How hot is Thailand lanister digging a grave? I'm excited to talk about that. On the Thailand front, if you are Thailand, why are you letting all the Triarchy Pirates know exactly where? you're going. You think they just heard? They just picked up on it. Maybe they were just like, hey, that guy who's wearing velvets and has made no, like, attempt to disguise himself. Yeah.

That sure does look like Tylin Lannister. Yeah. And he's got to be going in the direction of the one and only rooks rest. Could be. Perhaps. Tyler. Okay. Let's hear your thoughts on the grave digging technique here, please. So, I mean, I just think he looks great. He looked incredible. Jefferson Hall Action Hero win. Like Bruce Willis and Diehard sort of, love. level of grime, like, sweaty, hugging. Okay, sweaty grimy. Oh, sorry. This is too much, but this is fine. Giff that. I was miming shiving someone. Oh, sure. Same, because we're talking about Agon, who loves a shift. Loves a shift. Let's, sure, our listener Sharif. Yeah.

Says, understanding the efficacy of shooting an actor as they are. Why doesn't Laris grow some stub as a disguise at least? This is all about why doesn't Laris have a beard. Yeah. Our man is living in the woods. Lack of Matthew Needham with a rough ride is a failure of imagination. Guess what? I know about mushrooms, but today I learned the phrase rough ride. I had never heard that before. Incredible.

This is a compelling email. A rough ride. Indeed. On Laris Strong. They have your attention. Matthew Needham was at Comic Con and we didn't get to meet him. Oh, sad. He, like, walked by our studio when we weren't there, and we heard about it later.

I know. Very upsetting. Oh, boy. Wow. Okay, so Laris with a beard, you in? That would be great. I agree. That would be fantastic.

I agree. Laris doing some great comedy work is always in this sequence when Thailand's like, The Shovel is free. You know, Lars. Dogs are going to find Janus. Egg on in the background, just cleaning his nails. Could not have been funnier. Hysterical.

Great stuff. These three kill me. Lyrus had found another cog. He loves the cog. The dusk and Dale on Joe, we've moved on. Yeah. The maiden pool cock. They need to avoid detection for a few days.

They can gather provisions. They'll be out before the full moon. They roll via, Lars kind of, he doesn't want to help dig the grave in the deeper, so he kind of kicks Janos into this very shallow grave, right? So what will happen first? Will Allen share this Intel and will Team Blacksend swords?

Will the dogs or other people who are at work stressed discover Janos? There are a lot of possibilities for our group here, But they have made a decision because Egon presents Thailand with a little test Joe. I loved this. What did you think of this? Yeah, we already talked about it. As you mentioned, Egon character on an arc. Thailand fails.

Stammers his way through sweatily, grimly, stammeres his way. Though a really bad answer. There is. He was not media. In any of us, I venture must be admired and much to be deplored, incredible. He was not media trained for this question at all. And Egon chooses to go with a guy who gave him the hard truth. Yes.

Yeah, which feels like character growth. The unflinching candor from Laris over the equivocation from Thailand. You know? Really something. Esos bound, those three. Oh, sure. Alice. Ratcheting up the flirting because Amend wants to be bound for parts other than Harrenhall as well.

This was interesting because we're going to get in a few scenes later to the Dragon Egg reveal. But this shot, we go to Harren Hall. We're looking at, Amid is like examining his wound in the mirror. And it looked in real time to me, I thought it looked like a kind of flaming egg. But I need glasses. So that might be why. It's possible. I just can't see.

Did it look that way to you or did it look like a human torso? I'll rewatch it though with that in mind. A red gaping wound on a human. Flaming egg. Okay. So I'll just get some corrective lenses. No, you're not. Eam and ready to leave, Alice doesn't want him to.

Encourges him to think like the frog. A frog in winter, right? A frog in winter sleeps under the ice, still and silent, mend your wounds, gather your strength, let the world think you dead until the spring thaw. Waited out. This is obviously metaphorical language. But what's going on with the weather? So many people are saying that there were a few flakes of snow in the Laris Thailand Agon scene. Interesting. Were there? I didn't see it. I just said I thought Amon's body looks like a dragon egg on fire, so I'm not sure I could be relied upon to. but to clock a couple flakes. I mean, obviously she's speaking metaphorically about a frog on her an ice, but do you think she's also speaking like literally about the seasons, which would mean like in the parlance of Westeros a couple years, right? Winter is coolman.

Yeah, winter is cooling and it lasts. Spring thaw. Interesting, maybe. Maybe she's seeking to, we've got a lot of blood magic possibilities and magical happenings to discuss shortly with Alice. So maybe she's factoring in the seasons and the connections and the connections. to magic in the realm into her calculus here. It's entirely possible.

Amon's not interested in asking any of these questions, at least not yet. He's going to be pretty riveted shortly. He wants to find Vagar, wants her to show him as Tobin's. She would not have left me willingly, and I'll not be without her. And you can see, we literally can see

on Gail Rankin's face, how quickly the cogs, the wheels are turning in Alice's mind here. Floats the idea. Maybe Vigar flew all to protect you, to shield you. Moves closer to Aymond, does a little dragon mass. It's getting sexy.

It's getting flirty. It's getting hot. This is a just much savier way to appeal to Aymand and appeal to the dragon bond. And especially to link the seduction, you know, pairing the physical proximity and closeness with the acknowledgement of that bond. The opposite of how so many people have talked to Aymn, including his own mother, who he wants to fuck over his life about the obsession with those beasts. Alice is like, maybe the obsession with that beast is so special. Maybe she loves you so much. And that's why she's not here.

Smart. I really love Gail Rankin's delivery of, and where do you think to go? You know what I mean? Just like, she's not, she's, you know, mothering him. She's babying him. Where do you think to go? But like, yeah, the, she's brilliant. She's a witch.

She's hot. She's brilliant. I love her. I'm quite agree. Alice or president. Who should her running may be? Jane Aaron's dogs. What a ticket.

My God. Jane Aaron's dogs are currently busy, but we'll get back. We'll find out maybe what their platform might be. They're observing this befuddling sequence that we've mentioned a few times already. So we see previously before the scene at the high hall in the area. We see Raina back in her cave. I thought those blackberries look delicious, by the way. Here's some dragon screeches, looks out into the distance from the mouth of the cave and sees, sea smoke and moon vanser.

They're searching, they're prowling. Yeah. And then we have... The uncle-niece pairing that have chemistry. Exactly. Tough. We get the brief her in hell interlude. And then we cut to the area where Jane is like just total psycho shit loving, you know, the screams and cries of food.

Cut from... Alice saying, like, fall all alone. Mm-hmm. would you fall all alone or whatever to the guy screaming down out the moon door? Yes. We have many transitions like that across scenes in this episode. I know, and some of them are bad in that one I kind of like. Yeah, I agree.

And she's like always a good time. Jane's soldiers have brought Raina, who she slaps as we discuss here. And then they talk about a scene that we just didn't see. They talk about something that was not in the show, which is Raina deciding to, quote, fly toward a town equipped with several thousand pairs of eyes, Iron Oaks. So we are meant to understand. from that that Raina actually got on Sheep Steeler and flew to try to find bail. Is that your understanding of it? Yes, I don't mind that we didn't see this. I mind that I don't know how a couple of veil guys just grabbed her from Sheep Steeler and hauled her up to the Erie.

Yeah, maybe she went willingly. I think there are a lot of questions. How did that happen? How how high up was she on Seab Steeler? How close did she get? How many people down in Iron Oak saw, Like, it raises a lot of questions. Who in the high hall might report this very conversation happening between Raina and Jane as we talked? It felt a little, I don't think we needed to see the scene either, but it was as much of a, like, show, don't tell, like, we're just really telling kind of clunky flow and pacing thing as anything else in this episode. And I think compounded by the fact that, you know, you alluded to this line earlier, but this is where Raina says, I'm sorry all my life, I've yearned after a dragon and now I have one, but I've lost everything else, which is just, Trina explaining and saying. Just saying the thing.

Kind of, I think, inartfully, her entire arc across the series to that point, I do think on the human side, the emotional beats for the character, to your monkey's paw point from earlier, seeing the, you know, we saw this bold challenge to Damon, you know, a life of exile in the conversation a couple episodes ago from Raina. The proof here of how truly painful and anguish-inducing it is to be separate. from not only the realities of getting to like live and luxurated in Targary and might, but just to see any member of her family, to be around anyone she loves, to see how tragically sad that is for Rina. Do you think she would have enjoyed watching her sister have sex with her uncle? Like, do you think she wish she were around for that? Follow up question.

I don't know if Rina strikes me as a peeper. Do you think it would be a good idea for, in general, for people to be inspired by House the Dragon for their dating profiles? but I'm going to say no on that one. When Baylor says, you're very dutiful. Yeah. And he says, I am the eldest. It must get wearisome.

Attending to everyone else all the time. Attend to me. Blah, blah. Yeah. Let's fuck. Yeah. You're very dutiful. Yeah.

And you and I both flag that as a sort of like, you know, sexually, would you like to serve? Can I top you? All this sort of stuff like that. Yeah. Do you think people should put in their dating profiles very dutiful? That, I think so. Yeah. Is it a little odd to maybe?

make your dating profile a reference to an incest scene? Could be. But of all the incest we've seen... This one's among the least... Sexually interesting. Wow. Tough. Tough.

I want more for Baylon Allen, these characters in this show. And like, for... It's just must be... You can't dictate chemistry. You can hopefully cast for it, but you can't dictate chemistry. Right. And I wonder how much of a bummer it was for the writers to see the natural chemistry between Adam and Bela versus.

But also, we've only seen Alan and Bela in like literally one other scene, maybe two. Yeah. A couple. Yeah. Just a couple. This comes out of nowhere, I think. Yeah. Unless the vibe is just sort of like, I want to blow off some steam, except the actors have said that they're in love. That they're deeply in love. I thought those interviews seemed slightly maybe, I was like, was this the answer? are supposed to go with a different episode. Right. Maybe. This is a season four answer.

Because Bela going up, Alan finding Bela. Deeply in love. Not enough. It's not enough that worked, basically. And she's like, yeah, it's been tough. It's been taxing. I'm tired. You seem dutiful.

Let's fuck. I could like, my day would improve with an orgasm or two. That, great. The idea that they have fallen head over heels for each other at this point in the story is not something we've really felt. On the atom front, like it would be a little interesting. Like, she felt this for Allen while, like, Jase was still alive and she's engaged to Jace. Like, if they had done any of that work, which they didn't do, you know, like.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than you seem dutiful. Let's fuck. Let's fuck. So. Spicy.

I think there's a chance that it was a little bit of the, of an own goal for the show on the Adam and Bela just clearly had more chemistry front, which we saw when they were out scouting. Yeah. That's possible. I'm not totally, totally letting go of the possibility that maybe we're not done with that. Like, is there a chance that Adam is going to

say that he has feelings for Bela? That could happen. Oh, I definitely think that could happen. Okay. Yeah. I don't think that'll be interesting. I don't think the chemistry is like, you know, there for no reason.

It just sucks that it's like much more powerful. Yeah. Than anything that Alan and Bail. have going on. You made a very sound point, an observation earlier in the season, that to that point, a few episodes ago, all of Allen's scenes had been about Corlis. I'd like to ask you how you're feeling about the fact that even Alan's sex scenes are also about his dad because that's actually why he sought out Bela.

He's like, can you help me with my dad? It's tough. The Valarians like to keep it in the family. It's always a family affair. Dumbledon. Gawain has arrived. He's dirty, and Ormond will make some comments about how he needs a bath, but he's not nearly as filthy. As Barathe as the faux-Berathian assassins will be.

Ormond does have his pommender, his nostril tip, though, for this entire conversation, pretty funny. And he tells Gawain, as they're discussing Kristen and the split between Gawain and Kristen, that he's going to fight on. Orman's like, you think I'm mad? I'm going to keep going. And he calls Gawain a coward who lacks imagination. And this is where we loved this moment. We talked about this on Talk to Thrones. Orman turns as he's insulting Gawain to smirk at Darren. And Darren's sides of his lips go up a bit.

And Gawain looks at him like, at two. Really, dude? And Darren looks so ashamed. This is a perfect. Everything about their respective relationships with each. other in their shared dynamic was captured. They're really great. And even just the fact that you could see, because Darren is such a good boy still, and we will hear in the second part of this, seeing him voice to go in. Just like Sunfire. Sweet little sunfire.

Just a cool boy. You do see how this consistent exposure to Ormond and his abuse. Boy, Darren, when he shoved a sword into an innocent man's chest. I'd have to think back. I think I said, oh, and Tessarian roasted the corpse. Oh, do you know, get your snack. Hungry baby. Good boy. The way that even though Darren is hyper aware of how foul Ormond is and how he doesn't like who he is when he's with him, you can see just that second there, like how the toxins

from Ormond could seep in. Oh, yeah. It's working. This really captured a lot. Yeah. And like this idea that like he's play acting to keep himself safe, which he has. But at what point does the performance become, you know. We ask ourselves that at the end of every podcast.

At what point does the performance? This is real. This is not a performance. I'm always like this. So Ormond says they have a clear advantage when the fight will come to Tumpleton. And in the meantime, they're turning Kings Landing against a lot of trailer lines in this sequence. And Gwen's like, you sure about that? Freddie Fox is so good.

It's so fun to have him in these scenes. He's like, where are all the great houses? We should say, are they? We were worried that Gwain was going to die at the Butcher's ball, we should say. We were convinced that the reason that Gwain went on the campaign in the first place with Kristen Cole, which he does not do in the book, was so that there would be someone else at the butcher's ball that we cared about other than Kristen. Just not wind up being the case. But I'm so glad he's a lot. I'm so glad he didn't die at the butcher's ball.

Same. And the show is so far off in a very good and welcome way from Gwain's book storyline that we have like no idea. We have no idea what's going to happen to Gwain at this point. We have fun theorizing in the book spoiler section, but we have no clue. I'll join us in the book spoiler session, but like, we, you know, they could go any direction because they've just, like, really decided to do something different here, and that's great. And I hope it's because they saw what they had in Freddie Fox and they were like, let's use him. But, like, adding him, like, the Tumleton dynamic we already loved.

Adding, adding Gwain to the mix. Yeah. It's like a fragrant palm ender for us, narratively. But yeah. Orman and Darren and Gwain, the High Tower. triplets here at Tumbleton is just... Ormond would be so thrilled to hear you called Darren a High Tower triplet, my God. His whole PR thing is really working.

Tart Tower. Patient Hunter gets the kill, Joe. His hair's red. Where are you on... I think that it's his hair because we'd be seeing some rootage at this point. Yeah. I just... And I think I always thought that it was his hair and your point that that was part of probably

what allowed Ormond to... think him Hightower worthy in the first place that maybe Allison had to get him out, like the bad baby email, et cetera, all make sense. I just think that Ormond is a character who would dye that kid's hair to look more Hightowery if he had the traditional Tark Silver because Ormond is... I don't disagree, and here's what I'll say. High Tower supremacists. Here's what I'll say from a sort of hair point of view. That Tard blonde would be really easy to lay other color on top of. You're starting with a bleach face? You can go anywhere with that.

Wow. I learned so much from you every time we've pod. Well, like, you could not. Right, they'd have to bleach my hair first. You'd have to bleach your hair first and then die it. So, you know. Should I? No.

Your hair is beautiful and shiny and perfect. Don't touch a hair. My hair is insane and every day it's grayer than the day before. But, you know, at least I'm going through all of that on camera. That's fun. Ormond hits Gwain with this series of shitty snide homophobic comments. Yes. but I'm sure you found solace with some of your brothers in arms.

Shout out to, like, Freddie Fox and Fabian Frankel. Fabian Frankel in the, um, uh, vulture interview, I believe, was just sort of like, oh, yeah. Like, I mean, not that they were, like, having sex on the camping trip or whatever, but he was just sort of like, Freddie and I definitely, like, leaned into this dynamic between Kristen Cole and Gway and Hight Tower. So if that's, like, what you think was there, that's not by, accident.

We were sort of like, you know, take that as far as you want, is what he said. Very similar to Sean Aston being like, why couldn't Sam and Frodo kiss on the way to Mordor? Why not? You know? And so like, this idea that Gwain was like in love with Kristen Cole. Yeah. And was like, come back with me. Toll town.

I'd love to show it to you one day. Yeah. Not to polish my boots, but to polish my boots. And like, and that tear. And when Chris Simmons's like, they'll sing songs and Allison will hear. Gwain's like, oh, you're in love with my sister, not me. You know, like that sort of stuff, I think is sad and interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh. I love Gawain. You know, Allison will not give a shit that Kristen Cole is dead. But Gawain is going to be. Very upset. That's going to be painful to see if I hope we see him receive the news. If anyone ever finds out.

If anyone ever finds out. Because there are no songs. It's about how brave you died. A thousand's dead on your account. Ormond pairing these homesets. homophobic remarks with once again calling Gawain Craven and Gawain is like, I've been through battle. I've watched my comrades die around me. And the way that that will be paid off so perfectly in the Barathean, faux-Berathean assassination sequence, really, really, really good.

These scenes were just excellent. Our listener Garan wrote in to say, am I tripping or has the word Craven been the word of the season? And our listener, Shawnee said, drink every time they say, Craven, Narithesaurus to be found in the realm. Haven't heard Licksbittles in a minute. Maybe we bring that back. What's your best Craven synonym? Nobody said Licksbiddle quite like Vassaris. Your Lick Spittles.

Hmm. Let's see. I kind of like Craven. I mean, obviously, we can get coward in the mix. And we do. I like gutless. Gutless is good. Spinless.

Pussy. What if the show just starts saying that? On the anachronistic language. I like, I think it's in strictly ballroom that a character, one of my favorite movies of all the time, that a character in the thickest Australian accent in all time says, Gotless Wonder, you're a gutless wonder. I think that's really fun. Gutless wonder if you can't parse my terrible Australian accent.

Let's get it into episode seven. Yeah. There's still time. Just dub over Craven with just like a thickly Australian accented, Gotless Wanda. Fantastic stuff. away from Ormond now. Possibly almost only like 10 feet away just around the bed,

hard to say to have this conversation, but hopefully they got a few corridors further. Maybe his incense, you know, vaporizers make a lot of noise and he can't hear. Maybe. Darren is like, you know what this guy is. And yeah, you had to leave, but you weren't sad to. And he alludes to Orman's abuse.

He says, I do what I do what I. I can to keep him from, you know, just about what he's doing to Darren, what Darren is protecting other people from, all of the above. Right. Feels like it's all in the mix there. And James Norton has said in interviews that he and Freddie Fox talked a lot about, like, sort of what their history was, what their dynamic was. Like, you know, if, if Gwain was Ormond's whipping boy before Darren came along, and Gwain put himself in front of Darren as much as he could. Yes.

And, like, if you, if you, if you choose to think of it that way, and then you go back to Allison asking Gwain about Darren and him being like he's a nice boy, a musician, all this other stuff, he's being abused by Orman and I'm doing my best to stop. You know, like he doesn't, he doesn't like bring this sort of like, things are kind of shitty and abusive actually over there, you know, just in a different way than they are here. I do wonder in hindsight if the show hadn't made the decision yet to go there with with I don't think so because the whole point was like he's doing better without you away from the red key. But I think you're going to go back and read that with this idea in your mind. No question. I thought it was both kind of heartbreaking and heartening when Darren tells Gawain that he hates who he is when he's with Hormon, heartbreaking because it's just terrible life in this person who is grooming and torturing and using as Darren says here's a tool like he would sit on the throne of himself. He doesn't care what happens to me. I'm never going to be. be king. I'm never going to be king. But the heartening part is just that Darren is so aware of this, is aware of the effect that Ormond has on him and doesn't want to be this person. Doesn't want Ormond to be able to shape him into this tool of evil. I think what's really fun is like this is the first time we're really seeing Darren, right? Because we've been seeing like a performance that he's putting on to this and the moment he was alone with Tessarian. That's it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a a moment where he's considering the Savas board. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he's like, you know,

he's like looking and calculating and then, oh, I got lucky. Has to pull himself out of being. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, great shout. I thought it was interesting when Gawain is like, his journey is, he style you the bloody king, tell him you refuse, and then, ooh, if you were the king, you could stop him. That was a pretty quick journey for going there. So that was interesting.

And then he's like, I need a bath. I need my feather bed. I need to go back to Old Town because I'm second in line. So we had been wondering about this because Book Ormond has kids. So it did not seem based on the way he was interacting with Darren like he had airs of his own in the television adaptation, but this would seem to confirm it. Do you want to relate the tweet I shared with you?

I'll leave it to you. This is so much more your speed than it is mine. But it's too good. This is incredible. It was so good you were like, maybe I'll go back on Twitter. Maybe this will get me back on the Twitter. It didn't. So someone tweeted, oh, so Orman has no kids,

no airs in this, right? Because that's a book change. And someone quote tweeted, uh, Jayzy overrated 3D is the name of the handle. He's sensitive to bad sense and imagine what medieval pussy smelled like. I didn't say it.

I'm just repeating it. Incredible. Has Ormond ever had sex with a woman, he is sensitive to odors. Aromas. I don't like that word odors. for a lady. Aroma.

Incredible. Thank you for posting that on today. Silling myself. Stupiding tear love. Exactly. Down here in the filth and the muck on the Barathean boots.

Welcome. This is where I live. And then this is where Darren begs him not to leave and then asks Cameron on his sweet, sad face when you were in Kingsland. Did you see my mother? That crushed me.

Absolutely. You just felt how young Darren was in that moment and how lonely. I thought that was so sad. Towering over Freddie Fox, which I was just like not what I would have expected. Freddie Fox is not the tallest. It's a short king. Short king. Darren's not with Allison, but Helena is.

Things are going great. Elena's barely speaking and is refusing food. Stabbing at her sewing needle. Stabbing at her fingers with the sewing needle. upsetting. This is really, really, really, really painful to see. She's stipping a tapestry, which we will talk about more in a second here. But first, she asks if Allison lied, lied about Jahara, which was our read on where they were going and who was going to be there or not. And so Allison can't deny it, right? And this is very tough, very tough. I think it was interesting because,

like, you know, Helena's like, you look away when you lie last week. And so this idea that she, like, Then decided Allison was telling the truth. Yeah. Whatever. Yes. Yeah. That's sort of strange. Allison's like, I just want to get us out here.

Me or yourself, what difference does it make? That kind of idea has come up before on the show. What difference does it make? I've come too far. I've sacrificed too much. If I cannot at last salvage my daughter. Salvage, fascinating word choice there. My goodness.

And then Allison's unfroles the tapestry to examine it. And it is Joanna. Amand at Harenhall. Here's what we see. As I assume every single person watching the show is hearing Helena in season one episode seven saying hand turns loom, spool of green, spool of black, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread, hand turns loom. Okay, we see Amund curled in the fetal position. Blue eye gleaming. Blue eye.

Naked. As he prefers to be when he has crawled up in the fetal position. in a vaginal-shaped pool of blood that is piping down into the roots. The idea that the blood is, like, feeding the stone and soil of heron-hall. It's womby and vaginally at the same time, which makes sense for a guy who's sexually fixated on his mother. Sure does.

Sure does. Tough thing for your sister to know about you. But not if you're a Targary. But what a cool thing to express artistically. It's really free to call. I mean, I said Georgia O'Kee before, right? I think this is real free to call out shit, honestly. Yes.

Or she's just sort of like womb vagina. That's what I'll do. I hope that this is at a museum one day. This was great looking, truly. Alice is looming over. Amen, Harenhall is behind them. The dragon eggs are off to the right. They're there.

They're being stitched. And there is also this like bright, lush, orange and blue flora. This like plant and tree life, which is uncharacteristic for what we're accustomed to seeing around Harenhall. I thought this was interesting. Was your read on that that that was like. like the plants that, you know, the natural elements that Alice uses in her potions, for example, or more of a like almost dune-esque, like lead us to paradise. What could we return?

What state could we return heron haul to? What is Alice seeking to do in this bed of magic? What did you make of the? I'll go which stuff. Which stuff go? As you know, why not? Why not always? This is, of course, not Helena's first Harenhall, amen.

Prophecy, vision dream. If anyone wants to return to what she said to him at the end of season two, you're welcome to. You're going to die in this place. It's a very, very chill thing to say. And then we go from that tapestry to Heron Hall itself, where Amid is trying to steal a horse to flee when the stable boy spots him and Alice stabs the stable boy. She's like, look what I did for you, right? And I was thinking, man, that was one of, like, you only listed so many inhabitants of the castle. Remember when I stabbed the stables?

staple boy. For me. Yeah. I know you would. To show you right from the beginning how loyal I was to you. I know you would. All it's left now.

The blind man who turns the butter? No, we need that butter. And the ghosts. And the goat. No. But stable boy. We can settle a horse. He was expendable.

We can, uh, you know, move some hay about. Um, this, I mean, Alice killed Oscar Tully's grandfather, we believe. But this is the first time we've seen her do something like. He had the leaky bowel. quite so murdery, murdery. I celebrate it. Tracks with your general demeanor on this podcast today, yeah, your moral disposition. Amund asked a good question here.

You would pose something similar last week. Why don't just kill me and take the bounty if you want the castle so goddamn bad? So, oh, why trust Renera if you're Alice? That's certainly part of it. Even if you could trust Renera's word, you're not going to thwart off challenges from the other people on Heronel. but more so I've got a magicy plan that involves dragon eggs and I'm about to tell you about it, right? I need you for something else. I think it's interesting that Gail Rankin has said that she feels like Alice and Damon went through like a breakup, right?

Yes. So if that's how she's viewing it, then like sort of this idea of like that Targaryen didn't work out for me. Yeah. And so this, so like she's on a clear seduce and destroy mission with Amon, right? and destroy, sort of mentally, not like, actually, right? Seduce and, like, I'll give you princes. Well, you know, we'll talk about her plan or whatever. But it's a different tactic from what she took with Damon.

Because with Damon, it was almost like she was like, let's be partners. And here she's like, you know what, that approach did not work out with the Targaryen. Let me partner up with this Targaryen. You know what I mean, like almost like business partners. You know, she was treating him like the free exchange of ideas. Like, this is a smart thing for you to do in regards to Roneira, this, that, and the other thing, you know, yes, I'm sending you weird dreams and manipulating you, but also just like talking to you like an adult. That's not the tack with Aman. She's like, this is a more

vulnerable, malleable version of the guy who showed up and was like, Harenhoff. No, I don't get that. She's like, I'm not going to try to form a partnership with this guy. I'm going to, you know, lean into his mommy issues. Once again, top him and like, you know, and then and then manipulate him. You know what I mean? For sure. And it's... Seems you're working. It's working.

Amund is a more... I mean, you know, Damon had his... Had his own relationship to and journey with her and all therapy. But Amand is a... He's putty in Alice's hand by the end of this sequence here. She takes him to her witchy workshop. thrilling. Just delightful.

Which I could. I thought of you instantly. You know how you and the boys talk about the time you went to Galaxy Edge and you, like, built a lightsaber and stuff like that? If there were a version of that where I got... got to go to Alice's witchy workshop and, like, make a potion. You said you're just given these ideas away for free. I would pour.

Build the theme park immediately. Where is the Heron Hall experience? Exactly. Where is it? Where is it? I ask you. You get to go and have dream therapy and then make your own potion that you get to take home? Dream therapy.

So it's a little bit, it's a Game of Thrones specific thing, but they're using, they're using some stark tech. They're using Parf. Why not? Quentin Beck will be thrilled. Kill a stable boy. Go home. Alice opens a creep and reveals five fucking dragon eggs. Smears a little blood on them, by the way.

Stable boy blood. I mean, not the last we're going to see of blood from Alice, I have to assume here. We genuinely have no idea where this is going. This is like all new, just to be clear, so we're speculating very freely. Yeah, sounds good. She says that dream. She's like, you forgot your history? Dreamfire.

Dreamy. Dreamer. The Dreamfire laid during Raina. Targaryans, Heron Hall's Day following the death of her daughter, Aurea. This is about as excited as Dragon Nerds and Fire Blood Nerds can get. I'm thrilled. I'm so excited. We talked about this briefly with Chris, but we can nerd out here for a couple minutes.

Which part of this do you want to take first? Do you want to talk about Reamfire? Dreamfire. Hit it. Helena's Dragon, who she does not ride. Dreamy! So Dreamfire is just like chilling in Kings Landing. Not being like really calculated in Dragon Math because

Elena's like, I'd rather draw bugs, right? Okay. But historically, Dreamfire, who loves to lay clutches of eggs all over Westeros. Yeah. Forever drop an egg clutches. So, like, the fact that she drops some egg clutch, clutch of eggs at Heron Hall, not surprising. Right. Right. And it tracks. Totally attracts. This is, this is not in the book. This is brand new information. We do not know what's going on with these eggs. But it would almost be improbable for Dreamfire not to have laid a clutch of eggs there. Because she just loves to do it. It's her number one hobby. Some Dragonstone clutches.

She loves to do it. Life finds a way, as you know. What's really interesting about Dreamfire's eggs for larger Game of Thrones lore is that it was, we think, we believe, that three of Dreamfire's eggs. Eggs, Dreamfires, eggs, the eggs of Dreamfire. Are DeNaris's eggs. Yeah. So... Where did we land?

Eliza? Alyssa. Alyssa. Alyssa Farman. This accident all the last full week trying to get that right. It was like, which one did I say? Which one did Joe say once? Isn't it two S's and an A?

Yeah. Alyssa. But with an E. Yeah. Classic George. Elissa Farman. And like, Bestie and perhaps more. Her girlfriend.

Yes. She married her brother so she could fuck her. Has to have three, loved her brother, but then a couple horrible husbands including making her girl after that. And then she's like, I'm switching to ladies. And then her lover, Alyssa Farman, betrayed her, took three eggs, took off. Yes. And we believe sold them.

And then they found their way to DeNaris Targary and down the line. Yes. That's the Dreamfire side of things. You want to talk about the Raina side of things? I do, but let's stay on the Dreamfire eggs for a second here because I very quickly mentioned this on Talk the Thorns, but I want to read this passage since we are on the deep dive and we have an opportunity to nerd out on lore for a second. I think this connects to some Viceris Valeria obsession stuff that we've been tracking all series long. So, okay, the fair, because Fair Isle was the farm and home. So the fair aisle clutch, they see the eggs.

They know their eggs. But then we got to get out of there. Jay Harris is going to, he gives rain a dragonstone. I don't want to, everyone's asking me for the eggs, the fucking lanissorsers. They always want to. The Linusers really want those eggs. Alyssa. Almost fucked it up again.

The eggs that Alyssa takes are not the Farallel eggs. They're different clutch from Dragonstone. Sails away. Again, as we mentioned, Dreamfire, dropping clutches. Possibly laying eggs. Okay. So the Fair Isle Clutch, 43 AC. The theft, 54 AC.

The response to this, we have talked a lot on the show about Jeharis, the old king, the conciliator. The series opens with the Great Council, where Vassaris has chosen. as his heir. We talk about a lot, like the peaceful reign, good Queen Alassane, on the diplomacy front, they were constantly going around, right, on the processions, constantly, north of the wall. I mean, that's another super fun part of the, what has Silverwing seen? On just the general, like, nerd, a throne's nerd dragon front, the idea that like they're in beyond Dreamfire, the dragons just have secret clutches of eggs waiting to be discovered. It's like a really fun thing. The,

the Silver Wing wall theorizing that Sam doesn't feed. or the idea that Vermax could have possibly left eggs at Winterfell when Jase was there, and that gets to the whole septemberth sex of dragons things, which we don't have time for today, believe it or not, even we have limits one day. Jaharis's response to the idea that the eggs could hatch and become dragons that other people could seek to use, for the peaceful king, the good king, was this. The long reign of Jehires, the first Targary, and this is from fire of blood, was a peaceful one, for the most part. Such wars as he thought were few in short. Let no man

mistake Jeharis for his father, Anus. However, it's anise, but I like to say Anus. There was nothing weak about him, nothing indecisive, as his sister Raina and Grandmaister, Benifer, iconic, witnessed then, when the king went on to say, should the dragons turn up anywhere from here to Yiti, we will demand their return. They were stolen from us, they are ours by right. If that demand should be denied, then we must needs go and get them. Take them back if we can, them if not. No hatchlings can hope to stand against Vermithor and Dreamfire. And Silver Wing, asked Raina, our sister had no part in this. I will not put her at risk. The queen in the East, Raina, smiled then. She is Raineyese and I am Vesnia. I have never thought otherwise.

Grandmaster Benefer said, you were speaking of waging war across the narrow sea, your grace. The costs must needs be born. I will not allow Valeria to rise again. So the idea that Alice has these eggs and is saying to Amen, let's make some dragon babies, give me your dragon rider jizz and let's make some princess of our own and try to hatch these eggs. Oh, they're warm. They're warm. There's blood on them and they're warm.

It's not just could someone challenge us if they had dragons. Obviously at the most fundamental level, there's that. But it's what does the blood magic, the right, the ritual that is necessary to try to bring dragons into the world in the first place mean

on the philaria front? And we think about the fact that Viceris, I got a really little jolt discovering, rereading that passage, I will not allow Valeria to rise again. Because this obsession that Viseras has, Valeria, right, thinking of like the second episode of season one, the way he talked about as he was explaining this to Allison, this was the innogrium where the blood mages worked their craft. Or we think of the sequence with Sir Stephan before the full sewing episode. What's the lyric of the song? The fires have spoken and the price has been paid with blood magic. If Alice is going to try to do this thing, the threat of the magic, the blood magic behind Valeria, behind the dragon riding power, that one of the lessons that Vassaris inherited from Jeharis, clearly along with the prophecy was we cannot allow this thing to happen again. Really, really fascinating to think about that being part of what was passed down as well.

Raina. Incredibly fascinating figure in general in Targaryian history. Princess Raina Targaryen, not the same one. who's eating blackberries in the veil. Right. Right. Joe. Cool character in general. An interesting one to invoke in this story

because she, many people were like, should she be queen? Yeah. Should her kids be the queens? So as a proto question to Renera and what the realm was up. She came to that kind of late.

But when she came around to it, she was like, hey, maybe I should be queen. And Jehires is like, tough shit. Even at the very beginning, this question of like being the first grand, child for the Conqueror and like, oh, well, we're waiting for, we're waiting for some sons here, right? And then Egon comes along and then she can just marry your brother and everything falls into place for a minute there for a while. Quite tidy. I think that it's quite interesting. It was her idea to put dragons in the cradles of babies.

Yes. She's an innovator. A huge innovator and a really key part of the dragon lore that she did that, that she put the eggs in the cradles of her siblings. Jeharis and Alassane, that's a great one. What about the choice to be at Harenhall to spend her final years there? I mean, there's the fact that Egonne, her brother husband, was killed at the gods eye by Meg or the cruel. A lot of connections who have come up in locations that have come up in the tale we're talking about. Yes. But what did the people of this area think of her? What did they observe?

They were like sad lesbian at Harenhall. That's a witch. So the witch queen of Harenhall. which is, if you think about it, something that's going on with Alice. So, like, I don't think that Rana Targaryen is Alice Rivers. Is this becoming a popular theory? I would not say popular.

Okay. Because Rana Targaryen, like, we know what happened to our body. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, there are many characters in Fire and Blood where it's like, and then you never saw them again. Yeah, sure. You know, and they could be living their life somewhere. That applies to a lot of different characters.

They died, did they? You know, that happens. That's not the case with Rernerner. to Targaryen. So, like, pretty sure she died. Did she have another kid? Did she have a secret daughter at when she was, like, hanging out in Haran Hall? And, like, you know, Alice is, like, Raina's descendant or something like that. That could be cool idea. But either way, this idea of, like, the witch queen of Haran Hall, which is an appellation that applies to Alice Rivers being sort of applied to Raina Targaryen as well is pretty exciting.

What would be more interesting to you ultimately if Alice actually had a blood tie to the Targaryans or if she doesn't but wants to use their power and connect to their power? Yeah, I don't know. I think doesn't is more interesting to me just because she's so connected to the old gods, right? I think so. Yeah. The Isle of Faces, the wherewood tree, you know, the children of the forest, the green men. This idea, the combo of ice and fire, you know, is pretty irresistible.

And there's a really fun theory about this that, that, We'll talk about in the book, spoiler section, about how this could relate to Thrones characters that we know. But, like, I think that's more interesting. But this idea of, like, these are my mother's egg. You know, these eggs belong to my mother. In that larger theme of, like, you know, the various dragon seats. That would make her a dragon seat, essentially.

And so, like, you know, who feel entitled to power and to dragon. For Damon to treat Alice, like, she's absolutely fucking nothing. and she's like, actually, I'm a descendant of Raina Targaryen. It's not uninteresting to me. But I do think it's more interesting if she's like, I'm hundreds of years old and I'm connected to the children of the forest somehow. Put your dragon baby in me so that I can control a rider. Give me that dragon rider, jizz.

That dragon seed. That dragon seed, quite literally. Someone who definitely definitively is Raina Targaryen, this Raina Targaryen's daughter is Area. And we didn't get to this on Talk to Thurban. Thrones at all. So I think this is worth hitting for a second in terms of the risk of dragon magic and the hubris of dragon riding, which is obviously central to the story. Aurea, don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. That sounds right to me. But I think

that was probably it. Claim Ballarian, the Black Dread. Vesarius' dragon that he was... Aviated from Lodz. Too craven to ride. Dead Damon would be like, Arrea rolled. Yeah. The courage of that child who immediately died. Spoiler. Not immediately. She's gone for a while.

Well, that's what we're going to hit right now. So I want to read this. I'm going to read a passage, but before that, we're going to kind of, the end, this death of Aerea who returns and is like on fat burning, right, the fever. Ballarian has cuts and is injured, which is like astonishing. She disappeared on her dragon for a long time. They're like, where are there? Where is Aerea? She comes back mysteriously feverish and ill, and her dragon, ballerian has been through it.

has wounds as well, it's just astonishing to people. So I'm going to read this horrifying, but it feels important passage in a minute. But you mentioned the ice and fire part of it with the Alice there, I think. So another part of this is from the septum barth accounts in fire and blood. What came out of Area as she died? The things, Mother Have Mercy, I do not know how to speak of them. They were worms with faces, snakes with hands, twisting, slimy, and speakable things that seemed to ride. them pulse and squirm as they came bursting from her flesh. Some were no bigger than my little

finger, but one was at least as long as my arm. Oh, warrior, protect me the sounds they made. They died, though. I must remember that, cling to that, whatever they might have been. They were creatures of heat and fire, and they did not love the ice. Okay. Valeria. Stop me if you've heard this before. We have some concerns about Valeria rising again, and the blood magic that we presume Alice is about to attempt should be concerning for us and certainly would be concerning for any Targaryen who learns of it.

Quite excited. Me too. Thrilled. Can't wait. This is actually, like, really exciting. He is mayhap, Ski-Belarian. The only living creature in the world that knew Valeria before the Doom. And that is where he took the poor Doom child clinging to his back.

Remember reading this for the first time? It's so spooky. If she went willingly, I would be most surprised, but she had neither the knowledge nor the force of will to turn him. What befell her on Valeria, I cannot surmise. Judging from the condition in which she returned to us, I do not even care to contemplate it. The Valerians were more than dragon lords.

They practiced blood magic and other dark arts as well, delving deep into the earth for secrets best left buried and twisting the flesh of beasts and men to fashion monstrous and unnatural chimeras. For these sins, the gods in their wrath, struck them down. Valeria is a cursed. All men agree. Is Alice about to attempt

a blood magic ritual to wake the dragons that like history lessons like this, the doom itself, but also much more recently in the canon, what befell Arrea and Belarian as they went to Valeria itself. You all worms with faces.

Worms with faces. The end of that passage is the father made man curious, some say to test our faith. It is my own abiding sin that whenever I come upon a door, I must need see what lies upon the farther side, but certain doors are best left unopened. Aurea Targaryen went through such a door. So just the hubris of attempting to ride the dragon in the first place, explore on it, control it. This is a risky proposition. The theory that I love about Aurea on Balearion is that, like, she was like, take me home, and Balaurean's like...

I'm going to Valeria. Oh, home? You mean Valeria? Wouldn't that be exactly of a piece? And she put the wrong thing in ways. And she was just sort of like, oh, no. Oh, no. I met Kings Landing and you took me to Valeria. Sounds exactly like Raina bringing sheepstealer right into the gullet or

Amon trying to control Vagar. She's like, I'm going to eat ARAX and Luke right now. This is all so of a piece on the hubris front. And I just like, I want our girl Alice to keep this in mind. I hope her saying to, you know, Amen, did you forget your histories? Maybe he'll bring some of this up. Just as a cautionary deal. What do you think?

Here's a, here's some Rina Targary and stuff. Okay. Raina Targaryen died 73 AC at 50 years of age. An old crone. After the death of her daughter, Rea, she never again visited Kings Landing or Dragonstone, nor played any part in the ruling of the realm, though she did fly to Old Town once a year to visit with her remaining daughter, Ralella, a septa at the star-y-sept. Her hair of gold and silver turned white before the end, and the small folk of the Riverlands feared her as a witch. Travelers who turned up at the gates of Heron Hall and hope of hospitality were given bread and salt and the privilege of a night shelter during those years, but not the honor of the

queen's company. Those who were fortunate spoke of glimpsing her on the battlements or seeing her coming and going on her dragon for Rana continued to ride dream fire until the end, just as she had in the beginning. When she died, King de Harris ordered that she be burned at Heron Hall and her ashes interned there. So like her body was burned. They interned the ashes, blah, blah, blah. But just sort of like a witch queen of Harrenhall that nobody sees and they, they, they

They, you know, glimps her on the battlements and stuff like that. Like, it's a really cool thing to evoke inside of an Alice reverse. And if Alice is hundreds of years old and watched her and saw that, how much did that contribute to? Or if Alice is old enough to have been there for Egon the Conqueror and Belerian burning her and whore. Like, I do not know the ways of dragons, Alice says to Amund here. But I have long envisaged the return of the Targaryens to this ancient seat. She invokes the ancient strength. She calls herself the Lady of the Lady of the...

Water. Were you getting a little like Arthorian Lady of the Lake? Got there? Quite a few emails about this. Maggie Roned in to say, last night Alice, while power-sadducing Amon, said she would be his lady of the water and he would be the dragon lord. My mind first went to Morgan Lafay and Arthur, another dysfunctional brother-sister duo and her often conflation with Nimway. Arthur's surname is Penn Dragon, Chief Dragon, Chief Warlord, Dragon Lord, is House the Dragon Combining Morgan and Nimoy into one healer's slash. sorceress slash antagonist. Obviously, Alice and Amon aren't related.

Or are they? Just kidding. That'd be crazy. But I couldn't help but flag the reference. And then Cameron wrote in to say, You think Amon's also a barn owl? Curse to live in human form? No, he's just that guy.

Our listener Cameron wrote in to say, The Lady of the Lake from Arthurian legends, a mythical being who's usually portrayed as either helpful or cunning two sides we've already seen of our dear Alice and presents King Arthur with Excalibur, a symbol of his divine right to rule. In this episode, we see your offer a different boon to Amon, one of petrified dragons and the promise of princelings to hatch them.

And then our listener, Cody, wrote it not about Arthurian legend, but Azora High. I'm curious of your thoughts on Alice in the Stone Eggs. Do you think she's aware of the story slash prophecy of Azora High and Lightbringer? It appears when she smears her blood on the egg and Amin remarks that it feels warm, that she's familiar with how Lightbringer was forged through self-sacrifice, and that same idea is presented when Danny hatches her dragons. could Alice be trying to position herself into the prophecy? I mean, she spent a lot of time around Damon and he's just freely talking prophecy.

All the time. Yeah. Maybe. I love that. I mean, I believe that Alice knows everything, honestly, because she's just like dream walking, I think. Shools. Yeah. She and Helena, both dream walking.

So, yeah. I love witches. I love this position. I also love, like, what's going around on the Internet in the last couple days, which is just like, this is the hot goth couple we deserve. I'm very into it. Like, yeah, here they are. Very, very into it.

Allison Amund. Another thing I saw is like, I think it was one of our listeners maybe, but they were like, I'm really excited for the Battle of the Mommies next week at Haren Hall. I suggest a la Clegame Bowl, we should call it Mommy Bowl or something like that. Maybe there's a better name for it, but like an upcoming Mommy Bowl. Yeah, I'm in. Allison V. Alice. Should we make some merch?

There's still time. Yeah. We're really good at making merch. I have a Kulgain Bowl shirt still. Never really got to like fully celebrate wearing that. Nope. Reneera. Back to Reneer.

Back to the Red Keep, back to the Iron Throne. Hearing petitions? Who! Cut in that hand. Big moment here. We cut from Alice asking Amen for that dragon seed to the cries of a babe. This was one of those. You wrote Jays and the nose.

I did, but we've said so many. I did write dragon jizz in that corporate Google Doc. I did. Renira is sitting the throne And everybody Masari is in the corner She's in that very familiar Thrones perch

Where we've seen so many characters Over so many episodes She's like stressed watching all this Because Renera is like publicly Not subtly at all Tornd Mandurley Is the master of corn Coin take it to him

Masari's like Mistress of Whispers We whisper it We don't just like say it Attacks on the youngsters At the Motherhouse Thoughts and prayers Some prayers.

I'll light a candle. What candle? And then blames the high tower. These are high tower problems for the gold cloaks, but then reveals the very specific Valerian reinforcement plans and the attempt to fortify. This was very strange. And then the masses are yelling and they're talking tallow. They're talking about how they're afraid, right?

And the sound changes. Should we rename the pod Talkin Tallow? I'm in. Okay. Or just a spinoff candle pod. That would be great. One of my friends had a candle blog briefly. It was called Wicker Snapper.

She probably just won't be mentioning that. It was a school project. Renara feels a sting, on her hand, looks down. Let's see it and let's see what it is a mirror moment too. You'll be returned. How will I be protected? She was six and ten. Grace, we are afraid.

And wherever the fault lies, we have none to look to now but you. You don't want to also cut that with a shot of Dineris walking out with Dragon wings flapping behind her. From the finale, everyone's favorite episode. Maybe we'll break that out later. Yeah, she cuts her finger, she looks to the statue of her father holding the Lego set, and she's just like, uh-oh. Uh-oh.

Oh, no. Rejected by the throne, as was Vassaris. Love this. Really great. So the mirro to Vesaris is particularly satisfying, given the looming specter of Vassaris. But, you know, as we've loved talking about since that very first episode of House of the Dragon, when the pinky cut came for Vassaris. magical leprosy as they refer to it, set in,

this idea that the Iron Throne can judge you as unworthy and the number of characters. Megar died on there. It is possible that the aforementioned Marina Targaryen, his, you know, one of his widows who fucking hated him, it's possible that she arranged that. This is what we love when there are multiple potential interpretations,

and it's what is the character in question, not Magar because he was dead, thinking and seeing and worrying about, and then what are other people seeing? Here's the Magar passage. Hours later, as Dawn was breaking, the last of Magor's queens came seeking after him.

Queen Eleanor found him still upon the Iron Throne, pale and dead. His robes soaked through with blood. His arms had been slashed open from wrist to elbow on jagged barbs and another blade had gone through his neck to emerge beneath his chin. Many to this day believe it was the Iron Throne itself

that killed him. So that's the kind of story that populates the realm that people will know and will have heard and we'll be thinking about and wondering when they see Viseras cut when Reneer cut.

This question, and Emma Darcy voiced this in the inside the episode of what was known about Vesaris. So this is a little bit different, right? And I'm curious where you are what you think is more effective in terms of like

there was something undeniable about the... This is subtle, right? Like how many people mark that other than Reneira itself? So how much of it in this moment for you right now is about what Rinera is worrying about

and thinking about. How many other people have clocked that this has happened? Right. She's, well, she's hiding it. Yeah. So she, so in her mind, she's heard the story of if you're unworthy, the throne will cut you, right? The Seris doesn't seem that, he's just like, oh, a paper cut. I got it at work. He doesn't, he's not like, doom. No, he's like, I got an infection from a dirty, a dirty blade. Yeah. And then his whole body just falls off. But Riding-Iriss seems to take more seriously this idea that like the, cut from the throne could mean something. And so she's like, so when she dashes out, it's not just like, I'm tired of hearing these

complaints even though she is. It's, I don't want them to see that the throne has deemed me unworthy. Right. You know what I mean? Better wash that out with some soap before we have to break out the Maggot Bowl. We mentioned some of the other, so there's the Magor example of Vassaris, obviously of Renera now in the future, the Mad King, King Scab, Jop gets cut. The one I didn't mention on Talk to Thrones that felt very quickly worth noting.

here is that Egon the conqueror possibility, which is always an interesting one because I think there's this passage. You know, Egon is considered this fabled figure, right? The question of whether he also could have been cut by the throne is a really tantalizing one, or did he just get a paper cut from a letter? This is open to interpretation. King Egon read Prince Nymoor's words. This is a letter from Dorn in open court. Stone faced and silent whilst seated on the iron throne. When he rose afterward men said his hand was dripping blood. Was he just really holding that letter? The letter

sends him to a fascinating place. He burned the letter, never spoke of it again. But that night he mounted Balarian and flew off across the waters of Blackwater Bay to Dragonstone upon its smoking mountain. When he returned the next morning, Egon Targaryen agreed to the terms proposed by Nyomor, soon thereafter, he signed a Treaty of Eternal Peace with Dorn. So something's in that

letter of monumental import, perhaps connected to all of his larger concerns about the state of the realm and the prophecy. Did he cut his sand on the parchment? Did he cut it on the throne? By the way, the throne was his idea because he's like, the seat should be uncomfy if you're going to rule. It should be quite jacked.

Can I read the Reneira passage? This is the coronation, the Reneer coronation. Septin Eus tells that the ceremony went on all through that night. It was well passed on when Reneira Targaryen rose and made her dissent. Quote, and as her lord husband, Prince Damon escorted her from the hall. Cuts were seen upon her grace's legs and the palm of her left hand, wrote Eustace. Quote, drops of blood fell to the floor as she went past and wise men looked at one another,

though none dared to speak the truth out loud. The Iron Throne had spurned her, and her days upon it would be few. It's okay to say because it's like something people were saying about it. Yeah, they were just like speculating. Yeah. Hot goss. Yeah. Spilling tea.

Yeah. Yeah. What works better for you? immediately the throne cutting her the second she sits on it or this buildup been there trying to take control of the realm

trying to rule and then the first cut of the blade I like it being a little nick of the finger like I like how clearly that parallels Baralus Baralus I don't know I need to think about it we were missing it from like

her ascension to the throne in the first place. And I think I think what I'm missing from it, I don't mind how it's done here necessarily, but I think what I'm missing from it is like other people seeing it and other people starting this sort of whisper campaign

of like the throne has rejected her. You know, Orman would leap on that. Oh my God. You would love, you know. I don't feel like the people in the room saw her cut her finger. You know what I mean? And even if there were agents of Orman in that room, which I think there were because I think, They're yelling like, it's your fault.

Yeah. You'd smell bad. You know, like all sorts of stuff like that. I don't think they're reporting that back. But if Ormond had that information, you'd be like, oh, the throne spurned her. Did you see? Yeah. Like, that's why I think it's so interesting.

Yeah. Because it's like, and it's interesting that it's part of her coronation because it's like the minute she puts her butt on the throne. Yes. The rumors are already flying. She's unworthy to sit there. You know? Yeah.

Which always feels so unfair. So I think I like this subtler star. But I am viewing that in real time, only having seen through episode six with the assumption that more of those whispers and cuts will follow. The way that they were talking about this on the inside the episode after the episode, The Little Future Out at the end was like, we all know what this means. This is the portent, a sign, a sign of portent. You know, it was like, I'm assuming that there are more cuts to come. There's infections that follow. There's Ross that follows.

It basically reveals what's ultimately happening for real and Reneer's tenure. And I'm just like, well, or maybe it's just a sharp. Dirty Blade and everybody thinks it reveals what's really happening to find out. I don't know. Damon. Going undercover as a gold cloak. Sloppy. To try to lure an assassin who's trying to kill the gold cloak to him and then kill that assassin, which works, but there's some all fallout to follow. Skin in the game from Damon, you know, out there in the field. Kills my new hot boyfriend, which was a bummer. I was like, I really hope this guy's around for a while immediately dead. Tough one. I know. He does his best, high sparrow, you are the few, we are the many impression, I would say less poetically.

We have no number we are everywhere. Same concept though, right? And says, burn us, kill us. You'll never make us embrace her about Reneira, which really takes us back, I think, to a season one reniece. Like men would sooner put the realm to the torch and see a woman ascend the iron throne place. Very upsetting here. Joe, what did you make before Damon stabbed him through the ear and thus into the brain of him? saying Darren the Daring.

Oh, we talked about this on Talk to Thrones, but so Darren the Daring is a nickname that Darren earns through battle experience. They've changed the character a bit so that we are the ones who witnessed his first kill. And it's this much more up-close personal putting the sword through the man. I'm so sorry, the man. Kat's brother. Very important. Leo.

Could be. But saying Darren the Daring is real like Ormond Tye Tower branding. Yeah. That Orman's like, here's some coins. Why don't you start dropping the phrase Daren the Daring? Yeah. Put it on the merch. Put it on the posters.

Put it on a button. Yeah. You know, all the propaganda machine. Yeah. It's all spin and showland. And I just like, I like that Darren the Daring comes not from people being like, what a Daring oh man, but Orman being like, Darren the Daring, don't you think? Has a ring to it.

King Daring the Daring has a real ring to it. I like it too. It really feels like it tracks with the focus of the show on controlling the narrative. We already talked about what happens with Damon and Ulf in the street. Anything you want to add? I think embarrassing Ulf has this. We should be asking what effect this has an Ulf, but also I think on all the other people who witnessed this. Because you have to imagine, first of all, there's one of Ormond spies is there, that little girl who we saw passing Intel last episode. I love how everyone's just calling her a little bird because it's like, why bother? So I guess this guy's name is Richard, I think. Hot Richard.

Heterochromia hottie. They also call him the blue-eyed man and the behind the scenes. I did think this line, you'll never find us where the people of seven kingdoms, we have no sign or sigil. And when you strike us, you only drive more to our cause. We have no sign or a sigil.

I really liked that line. Yeah, that was great. The fact that all these people witnessed Damon treating a rider, a dragon rider of Hasdark Darian. The fact that Orman spy specifically sees it is just, I think, not great. If they treat their dragon riders this way, how are they going to treat the rest of us? And then, yeah, what is Ormond going to do with that until when it makes its way back to him?

Assassination time. Attempt time in Templeton. Gawaine, incredible stuff from him. Joanna, before we get to the actual blood bath here, there's a little chat going on about what makes a good hand. You know what makes good king? What makes good hand? And Orman is sharing some praise. Renera's one good choice he thinks is having named Corlis hand, which just feels worth remarking upon given that there's a kidnapping of Corlis at the end of the episode.

It's our theory of brains going here. Yeah, quick email from our listener, Kevin, who says, because they're eating here, for someone who's so sensitive to smells, Ormond is going to town on that asparagus. That's true. So just something to mention. This is what he says, right? You should think on it when you choose your hand, as if he has his choice. His hand is obviously Ormond. Right.

but like, Reneer made a rare good choice with Corlis Valerian. There was a soundness to his breeding, not the sordid appetite of the striver. And I will say, rich words from the mouth of a high tower. Are you kidding me? Like, first of all, Corliss is a striver. Secondly, what are the high tower is constantly doing if not striving? Like, you know, this idea of like, you know, he's talking about coal and he's talking about, you know, these baseborn men and stuff like that. but like Corliss is a self-made his own fortune,

and the high towers are, have been from the start, striving for the throne. No question. So constant hypocrisy from Mormon, rich words for the mouth of a high tower. Undoubtedly, quite like Tim, mocking Otto and Gawain's face. It's great.

Great stuff. Although, a successful striver in his own right for a minute there, for a minute there. Bull John arrives and he's like, the Barathians are here. Basically introduces Ormond with a list of titles and styles as though he were king. I thought that was astonishing and quite bold from Bold John. And Ormond is so smug about this.

He's like, High Garden will have no choice but to follow. Great little way to remind us that. Orman's own Lord Paramount has not sided with House High Tower. Tyrell's sitting it out. And I just love like that. that earlier, Gwain was like, and what has all of this done to bring them the houses to your side? So, like, Ormond's on the back foot to detect this assassination plot because of the smells, and that was Reneer's, like, clever move. These men rolled themselves in shit before they got there.

Great. Their boots are caked. Filthy. Okay. So, you know, and we hear the whining in his, like, this, you know, the sense alert is going off and he is having a straight up bad time. Yes. But also, he's primed to miss this because he's in a. a real like, see, the Baratheans are on our side. My strategy is working. You doubted me,

but here are the Baratheans. So smart about it. And Gwain's like, not hot enough. Not hot enough. It is great to watch Gawain piece it together and track this in real time, right? He's puzzling it out. But also, he is proving what he had to, should never have had to say, but did have to say to Ormond, which is like, I'm a soldier, I'm a warrior, I'm a fighter. I actually am in the thick of the fight and you're not equipped to do this at all. You're cowering in fear and and revulsion in the background and I am going to save Darren. I'm going to be the one to do it.

Another great little detail in this sequence because there's the fun kind of rhythm of the action with grabbing the carving knife from the table and using it, etc., picking up the assassin's head to say he's not as comely as the actual Aryan Barathean. But the little moment we're like

Orman tries to stop Gawain. Yeah, and John goes forward him and Darren stops him. And John listens to Darren. It does. So that feels very interesting. Important. I saw a tweet that was like, you know, Gway never forgot. Never forgot a single face of a guy he blew an attorney or something like that, right?

Great stuff. I don't want it. Also love that it's, you know, he's like wrong hair color. Yeah. Guess not. But wrong hair color. Well, indeed. Which was Foreman's whole gambit.

That's right. Right? That's right. It's great. This whole tumble-ton plot is wonderful. Wrong hair. Too short. not hot enough.

You would know this. Our listener Laura says, you know what Gwain's quick action says a lot for a good night's sleep and PTSD, but still. What I'm saying is, let's all remember the power of eight hours on a feather bed as y'all are going into another great week of content. No question.

Thanks, Laura. We are asleep deprived. Good plan from Rainira. It was. Put the Allison smell intel into action. However, I thought it was a great plan. Great plan.

The fact that it didn't work is very scary now. and the threat is sent back. The word scrawled on the Barathean kit that Orwell presents to Reneer at the end. So if you're going to try it, you really want it to work and it didn't. Are you saying if you come at the king, you best not miss?

If you come at the guy who isn't king but really wants to be king. Yeah. It has a puppet king. Beacon himself. And coins for that puppet king. I thought that this is a scene from later in the episode, but we'll just quickly hit it here.

Darren in the yard training later and Gawain and Ormond watching from the window. And then he says, this is the stuff, Lionel? Is this the dumb Lionel? Certainly for my lifelong bond. Wouldn't you agree? My God, the best.

Real, like, abuser-amo stuff from Ormond here. The apology, I'm so sorry I treated you this way, right? And, like, we could just tell we've seen enough already that this is his pattern. And he tells Gwain you can go to Old Town. And Gawain clearly has decided not to because he asks what Ormond's plan is. And we don't see the answer, but we get enough to. understand that Gowain has decided to stay to protect Darren. I love also, like, what we see from Darren in this.

He's training with these young boys in the yard. And he's like, there's three of you should be easy. Very John Snow-coated. No question. You know, him, like, teaching these younger boys how to fight. Also, just like, this is the fight that Kristen Cole wanted, right? Like three-on-one. But yeah, he's a good boy.

Who was the PIP? Who was the grin? Yeah. I hope we get to find out. I do. On the Ormond front, we're going to talk about Hugh now. We're the watching on the wall. Yeah.

It's from the beginning of this pre-the-dinner before the assassin, but it's paired with Hugh entering Tumbledon when he's talking about the strivers. But specifically, we're like on Hugh's face as he's entering Tumpleton, it's Orman just talking about how you can never trust a common man who's clawed his weight of power. Those moments are paired. We know what Orman thinks of he's using the common man. Rich words from my high tower. Yeah, indeed. This reunion does not go as planned for Hugh. I don't really have much more to say about this other than what we've already hit.

Horrible to see. Some relationship advice. If your wife's like terrible things have happened to me, my brother's dead. Don't immediately manhandle her. Have you seen my jag? Have you seen my new jag? Yeah. Yes.

That. And also physically pull her through the street. Yes. That's also a note. But I'm just saying like, when did it all go south is when he was like, Yeah. She's like, my brother's dead. He's like, put my dragon. Have you, I've got a dragon. Her response of like, is that what that is? You smell different. It was great. Great way to like, you know, the distance that has grown between them. This was a very upsetting scene. That's a, you know, that's a season one, Renera thing. That's right. Smell like dragon. Smell like dragon. Speaking of Renera, she sends Allison to Harren Hall. Allison goes to see her and the vibe is chilly. State your purpose. Do you have something useful for me or have I been misled? It's icy cold.

And Allison shares where Eamond is. She didn't withhold this information. She got it from her daughter, Helena, who, by the way, is a dreamer. She got it via tapestry, as all the best intel should come from. Incredibly worrying that Renera knows this now. Oh, Renira is so interested. She invokes. Danes the Dreamer.

Diana. Tell the bad babies about Denise. As I mentioned on Talk to Thrones. I don't know. I have talked many times. Danes the dreamer Is the Targaryen who once upon a time In Valeria pre-Dome

Was like, hey, I saw the doom coming Should we leave? Yeah. And the Targaryians, her dad listened to her. Yes. The Targaryans do leave. The other Dragon Rider families didn't And the reason you've never heard of them Is they all died.

Yeah. The Targaryes didn't conquer Westrose right then. They like sort of left. and then they conquered Westeros, but she's the reason why the Targaryens exist, why the Dragon Writers still exist. And so Dainese, the dreamer, as this sort of like, this could save me.

If I have a dreamer who I can grow for information, you know, can she show me the outcome of what's coming? And could she confirm what I believe, which is that I am chosen to rule and all the sort of stuff like that. But, like, Helena is so fragile. Like, she's sending Allison away. Like, Helena's one protector, right?

And Helena, who's just like, and Allison said this. Like, she's barely, you know, making it as is, you know? It's incredibly worrying. And Reneer is like, a dreamer. I have a dreamer here. Like, all upsetting. The idea that the Targaryans went from being, yes, dragonriding, dragonriders in old Valeria, but kind of like a mid family.

into the only dragon riders who made it through because of a prophetic dream. And that that family line gives us, Egon the Conqueror, who has a prophetic dream, which becomes the Song of Ice and Fire, the thing that has been passed down to Renira and that defines every decision that she makes that Damon casually mentioned in small council meetings.

Yeah. You know, the idea that we think of Viseras' obsession with dreams, I so badly wanted to be a dreamer myself. Like, Reneer is a child of prophecy. She's a child of a desperate wannabe dreamer who had like one dream. misinterpreted it and then like lives a miserable existence as a result of it, thinks that her calling is ordained.

It's just so, what if she doesn't like what she hears? It's all incredibly, incredibly, incredibly worrying. There's like no character in the story who is a more, who is more primed to react in a certain way to hearing that she has a dreamer in her midst than. Reneera, it's also just in terms of how disconnected is this family. We had long speculated like how few people. People knew that. Did Vassaris know?

Yeah. Valena was a dreamer? Was there a dreamer? Does he know? Yeah. Well, like, Helena, I think people attract this. This life of isolation. It's sad.

I think people attract this. Helena and Renera have not had a scene together ever. Just the two of them, you mean? Yeah. Because they've been in group scenes. But they haven't, like, had a conversation. Conversation. Interesting.

Oh, oh boy. Well, I assume we're going to get one from them next week. Now that Reneer knows this, because she also uses that she decides to send Alicent to Haranhall to go Okay, so Vagar's not there, but he's hiding out. Well, that means he's just a man and a man can be killed.

And she's going to send a sword. I'm going to send the mommy wants to fuck. Mommy Bowl. Let's make the merch. Yeah. And Allison says, I can't leave Helena. And Reneira just overtly uses Helena as leveraged as a threat, right? I'll watch over her.

I'll watch over her. This is so chilling. Let's see the clip. Please, Reneerra. Unhand her grace. I. I cannot leave Helena. I will keep watch over her

until you return. Did I not warn you? But you would come to this. Right, absolutely chilling. Yeah. Grabbing Renira on the arm where she cut her with the dagger of prophecy in this sequence could not be more perfect.

The Simby gets in line, but also the role of prophecy in this tale. I mean, what do you make of the decision to send Allison to Harren Hall? Where are you on that? but also just where we find Reneira in a position to say that thing about Elena to Allison to try to control them. I mean, I mean, it's just what Allison has been saying all season. And, you know, Reneira has objected to it all season.

Like, you think this poorly of me, all this sort of stuff like that. But slowly, but surely she is moving in that direction. She sent an assassin after Darren. Yeah. She's like, I'll watch over Helena as a real, like, sort of like, Helena is still my hostage. Right. You better come back. You better do this thing and come back.

and come back because Helena is in my custody. And she goes directly from sending Allison to kill her own son or be complacent and killing her own son to going to watch Joffrey's Lee. Yes. Dark. I'm still puzzled by the plan to send

Allison, but I'll remain open to it. Tough times for Team Black, you know? Quite, quite. So she goes to Joffrey's bed, watches him sleep. Allison has to part with Elena. Heartbreaking scene gets her to have one tiny little sip of broth from the bowl of soup. But Helena's like, why am I here?

Why did you marry me to my brother? Like, why is this my life? That was devastating. That trailer shot, where we were like... Yeah, was there no one else. No one else. And Allison's like, I wanted to keep you here. I wanted.

I wanted. I wanted. I thought it would be better for you to be near me. Really, really upsetting and poignant little conversation there. We see Allison ride off with escort put up. We had wondered in the trailer, what is that shot? Where is she going? Now we know. And then Corlis.

snatched by Bold John and the High Tower Men, I assume. Ransom. Like, it's directly from, like, what's your plan? Yes. You know, like, is Ormond going to try to recruit him? Because he knows he's unhappy. Right. Because he's got spies everywhere.

Or just say, like, if you think you can get away with torching Tumbledon, you're going to torch Corlis Valerian in the process. A couple different ways that could go. Yeah. Anything else before we get to the book spoilers quickly? No, let's do it. Book spoiler time. If you don't want to hear this, we will see you for Talk to Thrones for episode seven on Sunday night.

If you want book spoilers, stay tuned. All right, Joe, what do you want to hit in the book spoilers? Let's start with Old Town. We just got a couple emails from listeners that I didn't feel like I should share in the non-spoilers section because, like, they don't ever go to Old Town and this just confirms that, right? Like, the Dragons never go to Old Town. So, like, Amy says, is there a reason other than we never thought of that, that Reneera doesn't send Damon to strange? of Old Town a teensy bit. I've read the book.

I know it doesn't happen, but I'm not sure why no one doesn't, like, even mentions it. It would seem like a good way to draw Ormond's attention away, not to mention some of his troops. And Trey wrote in with a similar thing. And he said, as Catlin once said, show them how it feels to lose the thing that they love. Great. Great question. So if we're strafing, you know, castles, why not that?

And then the blonde babies. Austin wrote in to say, it has officially been, oh, my God. 728 days since we got a glimpse of Renera and Damon's incorrectly aged. blonde future airs in the season two episode seven. Ryan Condal promises us that he's not forgotten them. This is not bode well for Mallory and my dream of ending season four with the Regency of Agon the third. When do you think we will see the blonde babies?

I have no idea. I think they'll return in season four. I mean, Viseras shouldn't come back, actually, in the story. That should happen later. Egon has to come back. At a certain point, they wait too long to bring him back. for us to like remember and know who he is before he's... I said that about Thailand and no one had no one blinked.

I know that was just a couple episodes. I mean, they basically waited a season to bring Otto back. But we knew Otto really well. We know Thailand pretty well. Hopefully the beginning of season four. Could Thailand and Laris and them find him? Are they actually sailing away? I mean, that's another question is what's going to happen with that?

So in the, we're so like, I don't know, the Sunfifers. stuff has been perplexing for a while, obviously, but like, is Team Black going to, based on Corliss's Intel, send soldiers to try to find Thailand at Rook's Rest and find, and arrive in time, like before Egon Lyrus and Thailand have left? Or are they just going to, this would be the book equivalent. Sunfire is just gone. And they're like, oh, shit, that dragon's alive, but have not actually seen Egon. That would, I think, be more in keeping with. Sunfire toasts people on the way out the door. Yes.

But has been alive the whole time in the book. So, yeah, I don't, I'm still, like, a little bit mystified about how they're going to do that. But I'm, I am really curious, actually, to see what happens there, I assume in the next episode. But who knows? Helena. Okay. So here's the question. Obviously, Roneiro's going to be like, did you dream of me?

Now, we know that from what Helena told Eamond at the end of season two, that she has seen what happens to Egg on as well. because she mentions the wooden throne. Presumably, but not definitively, that means that Helena has also seen what happens to Renira. Is she going to tell Renira what happens to her and Renira will freak out? Is she going to not tell and Renira will freak out that she's not giving her any information?

How's this going to go? It's funny that you mentioned Renira because I was so worried about Masaria in this episode because if Masari is going to kill a maid who knew that Helena was pregnant, who knew that she knew, she's tying up loose ends of people who knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant.

And one of the people who knows that she knows is Helena herself. We've been on Masaria, Helena, watch, from the beginning, because Masaria is one of, like, Masaria whispering, yeah, this is what happened to your baby. It's like one of the connective elements to what possibly happened. It could be Misaria. It could be Ranira. And it could just be Helena herself driven, you know, by her own despair. Yes.

I mean, no more godswood trips, more confined imprisonment. on the heels of last episodes, I need to go outside. I need to see the moon. Quite concerning. Two betrayers set up continues to be great. Excellent. Ormond. Ulf.

Primo Prime. Yeah, all set up. All Ormond has to do is have somebody go up to Ulf and be like, I'm not going to treat you that way. It's done. Here's a flask of wine. Yeah. You know. My hue question remains slightly more complicated.

Like, do you think that I think, well, here's what I think. I think Ulf having that conversation with Hugh means that if Ormond gets Ulf, he can swing Hugh. He can swing Hugh and say maybe your wife is not impressed with your dragon. But if you save the city. Yeah, if you save the city or, you know, you can save her family if you do this, if that's what she needs. You know, I feel like Ulf will be used by Orman to get to Hugh. Yeah.

Do you think we still are on a path to hard Hugh this? Like, did this interaction with Kat sent him down a like cold or crueler? I mean, we've just seen glimpses of it. Trajectory. You know, because, like, we saw it when he sort of fought his way through the scrum in season two. Yes. And when he grabbed her here. Yeah.

So I think there, it's not going to be, like, I think as horrible as it is in the book, but I think it's going to. It's in him. It's in him. Yeah. Ormond's death. Certainly feels like more fodder for going and playing a role, which we've been having fun theorizing about the last couple weeks in the spoiler section. Darren saying, then who will protect me then?

Will you raise an army against his savages? Savages is such a, yeah. Darren basically being like saved me from this guy. Also, Gawain's, if you were King, shift, does feel like more Gawain leading the caltrops set up, I think. Those theories from the bad babies were excellent. I feel like they're going to be borne out. I want to hit you with this Alice Rivers theory. Please.

Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. Tell me. So like, egg magic show stuff ahead of Summer Hall is what you wrote in our notes. I think that's, yes, if this is going to go horribly to set us up for Dunkin Egg or something like that. And I am like, how does it not make the history books if something happened? But I don't know. I'm open. I love some weird.

We know that Alice is, or at least claims to be pregnant with Amon's blonde baby. And we see that child later in fire and blood. Right. Born. There. Okay. This is what Jessica wrote. The theory goes that Alice Rivers, who does get pregnant by Amon in the book,

but whose fate is unknown, has a child that goes on to either found or marry into house went. The rulers of Harenhall at the start of a Game of Thrones. They gain the seat and the seat. in the reign of Maker, Maker, the first, and our relatively newer house descended from knights that served the previous Lord. Given Alice commanding the bats, I wonder if this is a clue to the house of her descendants. This could fix a few problems that House of the Dragon has created and others that Game of Thrones made, namely the prophecy in the Targaryen role in defeating the knight king and the White Walkers. In Hot D. Cannon, Aegon dreamed his descendant would be needed

to stop the long night, and throughout the show and books, there is a prophecy of Azora High. This creates a problem because the ultimate defeat of the Knight King comes at the hand of Aria. House Went, coming from Amon and Alice's bloodline, fixes this because Manisa Went, married into a rather important Riverlands family, the Tullies, and had a daughter, Catlin. If the Wents have a little bit of the blood of the dragon and then that mixes with the Starks, this means Aria, Bran and Sonsa are all part of the Song of Ice and Fire as much as John is. And Aria is that descendant of Agon who ends the long night. She also does it with a dagger that's in the Riverlands and could conceivably make it into the possession of House Tully and threw them to Peter Baylish. Of course, a mortalish, Alice would want to keep an eye on her descendants and the prophecy. So maybe she ends up as a caretaker, a nanny, perhaps eventually a capital O old one.

That's right, old old Alice watching over her part of song Fice and Fire. This is fun, classic old Game of Thrones shit. So fun. Great stuff. My feeling on the ARIA thing is that there's no actual connection in the show just decided to do what they wanted to do. Oh, 100%. And also, you can just like make. I really love this.

You can make the larger argument that, like, John and Danny are, like, needed in the scheme of things. And together, they are a forced diet in the force and, like, they are Azarhai and stuff like that. But the idea that, like, Aria is descended from Allison Aman and is literally, like, the descendant of Agon who is fun. Certainly makes all of Aria scenes at Hara and Holland. even more fun to think about. Great. It's just a great email. Incredible stuff. Boy. Rapid fire through the rest of these. Just the Boris Baratian thing. You know, he is going to remain team green in the books. So I wonder if something like Renera using his house's garb to try to kill... I'm sure it won't go over well. This guy does not like her anyway. Yeah.

Corlis. So there is a rift with Corliss and Renira in the books, certainly. Adam and the loyalty of Adam, that's like a huge turning point and a huge inciting moment. Is Ormond just going to, like, turn him? Turn him? Is that going to happen? Great question. It could. He's a very convincing fellow.

I mean, Corliss seems done with Rainier. Coralus definitely seems done with Ranera. Her needs are endless. That, I think they've done a very good job, frankly, dating back seasons to establishing the resentment that Corlis and Rainies have toward Renera. To side with the Greens at this point in the story when his family members are part of Team Black, though, would be. would be, I think, a harder thing to pull off, but we'll see. We already talked about Alan and Bela.

It's just, you know, it's not just a hookup. They're getting married. They're getting married. They're getting married. They're deeply in love. Shepard set up. That line you mentioned really liking, were the people of the Seven Kingdoms,

we have no sign or sigil, and when you strike us, you only drive more to our cause, certainly felt like setting up the shepherd and the flock. And I just thought that the little moment where Silver Wing and Vermithor knuzzled was a real, real potent primer for the absolute devastation that's going to come when Silver Wing tries to, when Silver Wing tries to nuzzle up the wing to get Herbathor to move. Sad.

We only have two episodes left of this season. Speaking of sad. Tammleton in the two weeks. I hope there's something big in the penultimate. Like, will that be Helena or will Helena also be the penultimate? I have genuinely no idea. That would be a good way to. space things out, I guess.

Okay, anything else before we wrap? No, I think we did it. Thank you to our Queen's Guard, Carlos Chiraboga, Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Ramga Powell, and Jomi Adoneron. Join us on Friday or Saturday, TBD, for Spider-Man Brand New Day Deep Dive,

Sunday night for Talk to Thrones on episode seven, and then next week for the Deep Dive on Episode 7. And our Odyssey Mailbag and Nolan film rankings, send us your questions. If you haven't yet, Yeah, we'll see you then. Bye.