House of R - 'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 7 Deep Dive

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the seventh episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, "The Dragon in Winter." They discuss Helaena’s dreams, a dragon ground battle, Aegon’s rebirth, and more! (00:00) Intro (10:03) Opening Snapshot (23:17) Deep dive (24:48) Helaena the dreamer (51:30) The dragons dance (01:28:05) Mysaria makes her move (01:45:52) Alicent, Aemond, and Alys get weird (02:08:21) Aegon experiences a rebirth (02:20:58) Tumbleton readies for battle (02:35:52) Dragon math update (02:38:04) Book spoilers! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Production Assistant: Scott Lee Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, her designs for our future did not include my mother. No. Though I'd actually love to include your mother and my designs for our future. If we're at Harenhol, we might need to make some adjustments. Fair.

It's Joanna Robinson. It's me. It's you. My favorite witch of Harenhall or anywhere. I'm your favorite witchy workshop? Of course you are. Who else would even be in contention? Wow.

There's so many witches. Not to me. Number one, witch? Yeah. It's you number one, Agatha number two. I'll get back to you on the rest. Great. We are here not only to talk about witchy stuff as always, but to dive deep into the penultimate episode.

Somehow already the penultimate episode of House of the Dragon season three. Crazy. Where is the season gone? Where is the year gone? Where are our lives going? It's something to think about. We're going to get to all of that, including our existential dread. right after this.

Programming reminders. Busy times. Later this week. Yeah. The Odyssey mailbag and the complete, definitive, etched in stone, and bidden and ever. Christopher Nolan movie rankings. We've already recorded that pod, so we know for sure it's coming.

Yep, we did already do it, and we have surprises. Oh, yeah. On both of our lists, I would say. Maybe one of them more than the other, but there are surprises in those lists. Oh, yeah. No question. You know, that doesn't mean we're not doing an Oppenheimer podcast. It just means we didn't want to wait for the Oppenheimer podcast.

Exactly. It'll happen at some point. When? Who the fuck knows? We'll find out together. Guess what? That's not it. We're also going to continue our house of the dragon covers.

Wouldn't it be weird if we stopped? This is the last one. We're never talking about Thrones again. A decade of cramming information in our heads. All for not. It's over. Yeah. What are we pivoting to?

Oh, great question. Sports. It's sports time for me. Sports Joe. We will, of course. I heard there was an Orioles trade that we should be concerned about. There were a number of Orioles trades. A number.

Talk to Thrones. Live. Legit live. We are going to be here streaming live. Technology permitting. That's Sunday Night Energy. With CR. Right after the episode, we've heard it's a little longer than an hour.

So like whenever the episode is, that's when our live stream will start, essentially. Give or take a few minutes. Yeah. Will we leave a few minutes for the inside of the episode? I don't know. We actually haven't decided. Boot it up in case we don't. Be there.

Yeah, we have committed to be here live on Sunday. I love a live Sunday night energy. Really weird stuff happens. And then also, we will be looking at your comments and hopefully being able to, like, answer questions. That's right. If we can get our sort of our jets scrambled and our wits assembled, we will answer some live questions on the pod. Yeah, hit up the chat. That's going to be fun.

You can watch live on the Ringerva YouTube channel, of course. Then the pod will be where you always find it if you're not watching live. So look for that as well. And then, of course, we will have the deep dive on the finale next week, probably Tuesday evening. but, you know, we'll have it for you when it's ready to be delivered to you. And we're hoping to have a couple other finale treats next week, at least one. We'll see. We'll be covering the finale in full.

That's a promise from us to you. Until it's recorded. No specific promises. Just the promise of coverage. Correct. And passion and presence. Our hearts and our minds and our takes. Our bodies.

To the extent that I have anything left to offer on that front. You've broken your body in service for content. We all know that to be true. I did get a couple texts from my dad this week. It's like, I've been checking it on the pod. Seems like you're starting a lot of them by saying that you're broken and don't feel well. Everything okay? Oh, is that why we made progress on the doctor front?

Wasn't me, it was your dad. No, actually, it was. It was you. It was mostly you. Thanks. Joanna. Yeah. After that, we'll be in lantern season.

Oh, my gosh. We're going to have some fun Oriole stuff, other things as well. How can everybody follow along? Well, what if they just subscribe to the pod on their pod catcher of choice? What if they followed us on social at House of Our Pod? And what if they emailed us? Great. Hobbits and Dragons is email.com.

They could also watch us on YouTube. Yeah. On Spotify. That's right. Full video episodes. Incredible. Wow. Incredible stuff.

What a time to be alive. A couple. Spoiler warning, right? Spoiler warning. Same as always. You know the drill by now. All of Thrones ever. Yeah.

I mean, maybe this is your first episode and you don't know the drill. If it happened in this episode or anything in Game of Thrones ever, it could come up. On the table. Anything in the future of Fire and Blood will be in a separate spoiler section at the end of the pod and will warn you before that starts. Book context throughout as we go, but only at the very end in a separate section with a scary warning from Carlos. With a claxon sound letting you know it's coming. Only then will we talk about the future. All right.

Two quick emails. Hit us. Sky wants non-not like this episode's specific emails. Sky wants to know how do you feel about the, is it Adley Rushman? It's Adley, Rutchman. Ruchman. How do you feel about the trade to Boston? Not great?

You know, here's the truth. Adley is a Baltimore Oriole. He was until yesterday. Was a Baltimore Oriole. Franchise catcher, franchise cornerstone, number one pick overall. A 1-1, number one pick in the draft. I have heard his name from you many time. Yes.

You have. You see him play in person. Didn't remember how to pronounce it, but I have heard it. Here's the truth. We don't have time to get into all of my thoughts and feelings on this today. I will say I am in a surprisingly measured place. I was thinking back to my reaction when the Orioles traded Manny Machado, which you can read about on the ringer.com and see videos of, where I had what can only be described as a historic apocalyptic meltdown about the. the Orioles trading one of the best players of this generation. And all of those feelings I still

honestly hold to this day. Like Ormond hacking a table to bits with a Valerian steel sword? This was at Sunset Gower in the old office days pre-COVID. And I put on my Oriole batting helmet and sat on my couch and was holding, gripping a Mani Machado like plushy that I had. And Chris came in and took pictures. And then our former colleague Pat filmed me talking about it. And it was just so pathetic and sad. And then I was like, I'm going to blog. And I blot. And I blow. And I blow. That's how you know it was a while ago. You blogged through it. I blocked.

You blogged through it? I won't be doing that this time. Maybe I'll post some longer thoughts on Instagram. It's an incredibly sad and intense. Yeah, exactly. It's a sad and intense thing for all Oriole fans because Adley is like the cornerstone of the rebuild. I've always said that. It's an of two minds thing and the two wolves where it's like the return that they got for him is, as far as I can tell, from an astonishing amount.

of mainlining draft and prospect. Scouting reports last night. Epic. And if you're not going to be able to extend a player, getting the return that they got from the Red Sox is a better place than they've been before with deals of this caliber. However, what Adley represented to Orioles fans in terms of this new era, the symbol of hope,

it's just really sad to trade him in the division to the Red Sox. is, that is like, the second they signed, remember when I said I wasn't going to talk for a while, the second they signed Bessaya, oh my guy, Sammy baseball, to an extension. That was like, Adley's, they know they're not keeping Adley. So I have been preparing for this for a long time in a way that was. You read the tea leaves.

Helpful for my reaction, but it's just, it's, boy, tough one. Who do you think is in a better mental health space right now? You or George R. Martin. George blogged recently. Sweet George. Yeah. He's been having a tough time.

So we just wanted to say we read George's post. We support him always. Yeah. We heard recently that he might be working on some Dunkin' Egg stories and that's exactly what we want him to do. I feel like it will be like a nice booster. But also if he just wants to rest and relax, the man is in his late 70s. Do your thing, George.

Just live his life. You have given us so many gifts. So much. And we are grateful and we believe in you. And this made me sad. I feel very sad for George. I genuinely can't imagine. We've been talking about this for years and years and years,

but this level of pressure and expectation and every single time there's any conversation, somebody asking you, where is this thing that we're waiting for? It just must be the, it just must be so hard. I hope he's okay. I really do. I think he's going to WorldCon, which is happening here quite soon. Never been. They're doing a.

Thrones meetup. Oh. Let's look into it. Okay. That's it. That's all I had to say. Thanks for everything, Adley. You were a great Oriole.

I'll miss you. Thanks, George, for all the content. Gunner, you're still there. Let's sign a long-term extension. Henderson. World Series next year. Anderson, look at you. Yeah.

Yeah, sports show. Oh, my God. Open a snapshot? Let's do it. Ah, those sword sounds. Okay. Season 3, episode 7, sheesh. The dragon and winter.

64 minutes. Most of these episodes this season I think other than episode three have been just a few minutes north of 60.

Once again, this episode like episode five, directed by Nina Lopez Carrado, and also like

episode five, Philippa Gosslet is one of the writers on this episode, but Zenzeli Price is also a writer on this episode

first of the season. That's the crew. Joanna, if anyone did not watch Talk the Throne. So honestly, even on it was probably a parent,

and how we felt about the episode, but we didn't do our usual, like, what was your favorite thing? What did we think at the beginning? So, hot off the press is breaking news. Reveal right now your take. What did I think of the episode? What did you think of the dragon in winter, the pen ultimate episode of season three of House of the Dragon. I think what we've come to find with House of the Dragon is that, you know, unlike our expectations, you know, especially in these. You did that a little bit in the Come to Die for the Dragon Queen Voice. Coom to die. You did a little bit. We've come to find.

What we've Coombe defined. It just kind of, it emerged. We'll have a bit of Roddy the ruin inside of us. What we've Coom to find about the eight episode seasons of House of the Dragon? And actually even the finale of the last season. It's like, this is very much we're putting pieces in place sort of episode. Yeah. And I'm not mad about it.

Spectacular dragon action, like undeniable spectacular spectacular, not just like, you know, the aerial battles that we've gotten before. Or like, it's the dead of night. We're like talking bright sunlit of day in a field on the ground dragon action. That's right. And it looked amazing. Our pal, Paula Fairfield on the sound design, incredible war from the four different dragons. So, you know, we got to see Dreamfire, sunfire, no longer long in the dying, now long in the living. So use his proper name.

Sweet sunfire. War criminals. Sunfire. Poor Criminal Sunfire. Show us your chair. So I liked it. It was not my favorite of the season, but I quite liked the episode. I thought this was really quite an effective penultimate episode and finale set up.

And it felt to me like while we were doing a lot of the moving the pieces on the board to position us for a finale, I thought it did that in a confident way that felt more akin to episodes. in the middle of this season before the kind of dip of episode six. And certain sequences and character settings in this episode, like after the frustration of six, it felt like we had forward momentum in a way that felt really important. So I had quite a good time watching this episode. I thought there were some really memorable and indelible House of the Dragon sequences, the four dragon ground fight, which I can't wait to talk about,

all of Helena's dreams, egg on and sweet sunfire, incredible stuff. Ulf and Ormond, I mean, a moment that, like, we've been building toward methodically, but quite expertly, all season. And then the pairing inside of this episode of, like, really quiet, intimate character moments of conversation say, like the one between. Reneira Masaria's pelvis. That one? Yeah.

I mean, Vagam. We were, like, really at the pubic level. level on that one. I'm about to use a word I don't usually use, but I'm about to use a word just FYI to people. Are you going to say cunt or pussy? It's the C word. And I'm just quoting a tweet I saw. Where it's the shot of Reneer just like right next to Masaria's nether's, right? Yeah. And it just says like, hey, cut GPT. Am I a good ruler? Oh my God. Incredible. I ask once again, should I return to Twitter? I mean, I just have missed. I think I'm just getting, I'll just. I'll just get it. I'll

just, like, feed the crem d'la crumb to you. No, come on. Anyway. You were saying some nice intimate moments. Contchie P.D. It's hysterical. Have you sent that to Chris? Can't wait for his takes.

It's amazing. I don't, like, boy. No, you only send those to me? Yes. They're private. That's just for us and all of our bad baby listeners. Chris blushes like a daffodil would use that kind of language around him.

If anyone check the tape, Chris has said content Talk to Thrones more than either of us. So he's always. only quoting the canon. Yeah. Just as you are. I can't make that claim. By the canon, I mean a tweet I read, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, isn't Twitter canon? Sadly, lamentably for our time. I was going to mention, you know, Damon and Reneerah. With Alinda there observing. Alinda is a third. Boy, and then just this was a, the heron hall stuff in this episode was real like House of the Dragon freaky shit in a way that I loved. Mommy Bowl.

Has the merch emerged for Mommy Bowl? I haven't seen anything. Tough. Unbelievable. What are we doing? Bard Corner. Okay. Drastical tone will shift.

I don't know. Not really, actually. You know what? Shakespeare loves a C-word joke. Okay. That's right. Listen. Back to saying C-word.

C-word. Craven. Or all the synonyms we came up last week. All right. So, this episode is called Dragon and Winter. Mm-hmm. And because I love life, I decided I decided to rewatch

Lion in Winter. This is obviously a reference to Lion and Winter, which is a play that was made into a fantastic film and also into a TV movie in the 2000s. But the film

with Catherine Hepburn and Peter O'Toole, a very young and handsome Timothy Dalton and Anthony Hopkins, among other people, is about a royal family who come together

and squabble over succession. A royal family divided over who should take the throne. Should it be King Richard the Lionheart? You might have heard of him. Should it be King John? You might have heard of them, like of Robin Hood fame.

These are the guys. These are the sons in question. And also, this generation is just, I think, one generation removed from the anarchy, which was another Civil War over the throne, which was the actual real life historical inspiration for George R. Martin to write, Dance of the Dragons. So it's based on the anarchy. But it's so funny because one of our listeners wrote in with a line from this movie, and I had already written it down, because I'd never thought of it as like a throne's connection.

But there's this line in the line in the winter where Richard, again, Richard the Lionheart, you might have heard of him, says he's here, he'll get, played by Anthony Hopkins. He's here, he'll get no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me beg. And then Jeffrey, his brother, that no one's heard of because he died. My, my, you Chivalric Fool, as if the way one fell down mattered. And Richard says, when the fall is all there is, it matters. So I was like, the climb is all. That is all. The fall is all. The climb is all. I was like, surely this is an inspo.

So I did reach out to our pal, Brian Cogman, who wrote on Game of Thrones, a producer on Game of Thrones. And I was like, hey man, how much was the line in the winter like top of mind for you all when you were writing that? And he was like, for me, it was a huge inspiration. He's like, the guys wrote that. He's like, I didn't write that episode. So like, I don't know if that was like, I think the three options he gave was like a conscious deal and unconscious steel or nothing whatsoever to do with it. These are common things that like, blind and winter is a beloved,

classic film with beautiful writing that I'm sure Dan and Dave have seen, et cetera, et cetera. So it might just like be in their mind or whatever. But anyway, I just thought that was like a fun, thronesy connection to mention. Incredible stuff. Do you think more people would be familiar with Joffrey if,

Jeffrey? Yeah. Joffrey, if they called him Joffrey, if, you know, Laris had said, my duty now is to ensure that all... I can't wait to talk about your guy, Laris.

What a shameful episode for your guy, Laris Strong. Not a source in House of the Dragon. He doesn't want to die for the rapist king, Yagon, and that's okay. All right. What about Sweet Sunfire? He wasn't around for that. Would have changed his student, maybe. This is also for me here in Bard Corner.

Yeah. It's from Henry the fourth part one. It is incredible that you wrote in the outline of me. And then also me. Right Exotipo? Of course is me. I don't know fourth part one. Hotspur, one of the best names for a character or a person ever.

Are you going to adopt Tottenham Hotspur as your Premier League team? No, but I'll just go by Hotspur. Okay, great. Yeah. Great. Oh, so Hotspur's dying. Yes. Prince Hale has killed him.

The two of them are, you know, one of them's dying and the other one's like still alive because he becomes King Henry's spoiler. Okay. Yeah. Oh, I could prophecy, but that the earthly and cold hand of death lies on my tongue. No Percy. So this is Hotspur dying, talking to himself in the third person, legendary. No, Percy, thou art dust, and food for, and then he goes, and then he dies, and food for.

And then Prince Henry says, for worms, brave Percy, fare thee well, great heart, ill-weaved ambition, how much art thou shrunk, when that this body did contain a spirit of kingdom for it was too small abound, but now two paces of the vilest earth is room enough. So I was thinking about this when multiple characters talk about returning to the dust inside of this episode. So I always think about that, like, food for worms. Yes. And like, no Percy, thou art dust. I always think about it.

And food for it and he dies. And then the person who kills him, who, like, has this, like, respect for him is, like, food for worms. And also, you used to want a massive kingdom. And now you're just a patch of ground. That's all you are. All right, I'm just going to zoom through the rest of Bard Corner because I've taken up too much time. Okay.

Aiden, from Richard the Third. Oh, so lies on my tongue, you weren't going to make a connection to Reneer and Masaria. Nope. Okay. But here's about, this is about Reneera and Masaria. From Aidan, Richer the Third, poor painted queen, why strewest thou sugar on that bottled spider, whose deadly web ensnareth thee about, fool, fool, thou wettest a knife to kill thyself. Sheesh.

She strew her sugar for us. Spider, indeed. Radira and Masaria. Okay. I think Drew Sugar is like a really nice euphemism for sexual congress. Okay. John said he was thinking about Claudius when Hamlet's like, things seem really wild and crazy here. I'm going to go back to Vittenberg and study philosophy.

And Claudius is like, no, I'd rather have you here, quote, in the cheer and comfort of our eye. He's like, I want my eye on you. and that he our listener was like that's very Renira and Helena like why don't you sit here

and do your needle point and I will just come and interrogate you about your dreams sounds like a great plan okay and then William wrote into site Macbeth

which is I think been the highest you know the most cited of the plays in this Mcbeth talking about the weird so the weird sisters

the three witches of Macbeth who can sort of give him these cryptic prophecies right yes he says I will tomorrow and betimes I will, to the weird sisters.

More shall they speak, and for now I am bent to know by the worst means the worst. So to find out from the weird sisters what's going on, and this is very Renera interrogating Helena. And as William, our listener pointed out, when Mcbeth reaches the witches, he keeps imploring, answer me, answer me, tell me. And when the answers aren't clear enough, he insists, but one word more, my heart throbs to know one thing, tell me, I will be satisfied, deny me this, and an eternal curse fallen you, let me know.

So, Reneerra, being compared to Claudius, Mcbeth, I would say Feels right. Not great. Yeah. Tracks. Not great for our girl. Tracks.

Worrying. And that's it for Bard and Classics Corner. Wonderful stuff. Delightful. I love our listeners. Shout out to the bad babies. Yeah. Shout out to the Bard.

You think you'd ever want to come on the pod? I was about to say, do you think, do you think Shakespeare would listen to our podcast? No. He would be a ringer listener, but it wouldn't be our podcast. More of a CR head? He would, he would, ringer fantasy football. Oh. He was a populist. He was like a man of the people.

He would definitely have had some takes on high fits talking about beach ham recently, the fridge ham. I saw it and take it to the beach. I saw the Instagram. Hard to miss. I did see it. We're to work here. You know? And we get to do it together.

I think Dr. Fisher would love to know more about beef ham. Should we talk about this episode of television? Let's do it. Let's head to the bowels. I have a pleasure, Den. For the deep dive. Beach ham. Beach ham.

You jam! We're not lingering on the opening credits, but just to note, Butcher's Ball is there, and Kristen's face looked a little bit better here than in the prosthetic form later. Bleeding into the 7.0 star sort of formation. Pretty cool. Kind of looked, you know, because the way it's featured, it shows us the dead around him before it shows us him. The like this circle around him. Did this feel more like the kind of glorious death that he was.

asking for enshrined in beautiful tapestry. Frankly, he shouldn't have made the tapestry. No songs. I know. That's what I'm saying. No songs. Not just like a tapestry, but like a symbolic sort of like spread of the 7.10 star around him. Let's kick him out and get torn down the wanderly back there.

The real contributors. Where's Thailand on the tapestry? It's my question. Man. I mean, let's get him in there in the sweaty undershirt. I mean, I guess who the person we should be taking our complaints do is Helena, because there is this, you know, enduring strong theory that Helena is the weaver of the tapestry, the needle pointer herself.

I feel like Helena is going through enough and I'll withhold my complaints rather than sending them to her. Okay. Leave George alone. Leave Helena alone. She's got to work through it with Renair right now. And let's get to it. Let's start there. We're going to cluster our deep dive today by character set.

And we're going to start with a lot of the Reneira-centric or Reneera-adjacent plot lines, and then we will spend a pretty enjoyable back-off of the deep dive on Team Green who really delivered this week. Boy, what a time to be a fan of Team Green as you declared yourself publicly on Talk to Thrones. I picked specific greenies. They are incredibly entertaining to watch. There's no question. It's not a green blanket. It's specific greenos.

and it's Darren and Gwain. I also love Darren and Gwain. Did you see the way that Gwain dismounted from his horse? What was striking about it? I don't know if anything stood out to me. You need to be on Twitter. He did a high kick. Like, instead of just sort of like the back leg around,

he did a high kick over his horse's head. And there were memes, but not on Instagram? I mean, just like a real sort of can-can dancer move. A real like I've been doing hot yoga, goat yoga, all the yoga. I can bend my leg this way. And he said, Gentlemen of Tumbledon, take note. This is what I can do.

Incredible stuff. Great energy today. Okay. I love it. Really, truly. Helena, the dreamer. We're going to talk in a second about what Helena says to Reneer, the warning she issues,

and also the behavior that we see from Reneera. Well, let's start just with the dreams, the idea of dragon dreams and the double dreams that we get, because this was such an exciting thing for House of the Dragon viewers and for Thrones fans. We're going to hit them both back to back here

even though they were spaced across the episode. Dream number one, Joe. Red Keep courtyard. Empty. No other people. Renira's banners, visible.

And Helena is stroking, she will describe this as a gray mare. Looks pretty... You could say pale horse. It looks pretty white. You could say pale horse, I think. Pale horse, pale rider.

Indeed. The gates open. the light bathes her face, she looks out. Cross this stream and then what we will see later, we talked about this already on Sunday, but this interesting melding of the prospect of escape with the confinement and portrait of doom. Very effective the way that was captured.

Dream two. Helena and childbirth, the babe immediately given to a soldier. We know what that means. We know what that is telling us. And then... I think that's interesting. You said this on Talk the Thrones. You feel like this conclusively means that's a male heir.

Don't you feel like any baby would be taken from her? I think the fact that that would also be the damning takeaway of just no matter what. There's no future for the kid. There's no good news. That's where this has come to. There's no goodness. Her dreams are telling her the fate of the child is sealed. If the instantaneous nature of handmade looks and then hands at

to the soldier means mail air. It's a wrap. Yeah. What we saw next was just honestly so mesmerizing. We need to see it. We need to see it. This might be record timing in the deep dive for a clip. But Carlos, I don't know.

We're an hour into the episode. Not in the pod. It's just in the deep dive section. Yes. So we have so many thoughts. Yes. Plenty of which we have to confine to the spoiler section. This is always the case when we go dream splunking on a throne's property.

We got to keep a lot of it for the spoiler section. Yeah. I did think it was interesting. You know, we were talking about sort of what it means to see Helena on Dragonback there. Darling Dreamfire, incredible design. Beautiful Dreamy. Dreamy has not been to war. So sweet, beautiful, darling, dreamy.

A detail that I love that A Shay on the History of Westrose podcast pointed out is that her outfit there is actually quite similar to what Renera wore in the Hunt episode in season one. sort of like short sleeve with the long contrasting color underneath. And then a lot of people have pointed out that they feel like this is supposed to allude to sort of rainies and mellies and sort of. The most infamous moment in the history of the show. But something that Helena would have witnessed. Beasts beneath the boards. Correct. What if I myself am the beast beneath the board?

Yes. Helena. I think that the way that Helena across the series has talked about. violence, not only with beasts, no beast shall be harmed, but with the refusal. You know, and it's interesting in this exact sequence when Reneera, not the secondary, but the first dream, when Reneera is there kind of looming over. She wakes very weird and very creepy. A lot of watching people sleep this season.

And Reneer asks, you know, did Damon asked you to fly with, didaman ask you to fly with him? My whole council has been buzzing about it, speculating, wondering, can you put the rumors arrest, we, you know, we recall that one of the things that Helena said in response to Amund's play, Allison was there, you know, in one of the two conversations, the gentlest among us, but Helena was like, I don't want to burn anyone. So there's something so shocking about seeing Helena say Dracarus and Dreamfire emit that fire, knowing how Helena feels about an act like that. It was just such an effective visual. Dreamfire looked so cool. The Dragons all look sick. Dreamfire was like, I gasped seeing Dreamfire. I think that's my favorite

in full from the front is Dreamfire. Who's last on your list? Wow. I simply wouldn't eat my friend if we were. You've learned. You've learned. It took you a few years. Did you say you would start with the tongue? Yes. Yeah. I did. You did. You're the best. This is a Yellow Jackets' Pod reference. Once the next season of that? Who knows?

God. Boy. Dragon Pit also we... I was just thinking of Yellow Jackets and you're saying you need to start by eating the tongue and thinking about cannibalism. And I got lost in memories of our time together. Now we're back, rooted in the stream. Drakaris, in the dragon pit, people running in. Even just being back in the dragon pit this episode, like rooting us in King's Landing when Reneera flies back.

abandoning Syrax to her wounds, just reminding us that we're in Kings Landing, this is like, what do you think was worse? Where the dragons are? Her like, like, saying, like, put Raina in a room somewhere or her not tending to Syracs at all after Syrac got, Syracs got savage. You know my answer to this. Of course. The dragon's supposed to be an extension of yourself.

Yeah, which I guess you could say is a potent commentary. Hopping off her hobbled dragon and just without a backward glance. Check in. How about just a soothing, it'll be okay, Bubby? Give her some extra snacks. A churu. A salve. Yeah.

Exactly. Checking with the dragonkeeper, something. Didn't like that. It wasn't good. Next part of this dream. The farm. Got to say this looked great until winter came. It looked really lovely until winter came.

I don't know. Winter in the farm seems kind of cozy. A winter snowflake, sure. Apocalyptic White Walker winter in very recognizable. Misty. Hog form moving to us. I'm going to pass on that. The chickens, Joanna.

Yeah. This is what we know Helena wants, just to raise chickens, right? Did you interpret that as Jehara and the Unborn Babe, or Jahera and Jehara is? That was what, I think you could read either, but I thought those children,

let me say this, I don't have kids, not an expert. They looked like similar ages to me. Maybe they would have matched their hair a little bit more if they were definitely trying to show us that they were twins. I thought it was supposed to be the younger one, but.

It felt to me like the baby would be like, I don't know. I guess if it's in the future, yeah. I thought maybe this was the alternate history where Jay Harris hadn't been killed. Okay. But maybe it's not. I'm fine with either.

Yeah. Let all the kids live. That's my hunting. That'd be great. You hear that blood and cheese? That notes. We've got feedback. Joanna, last week, you, a person who has corrective lenses,

pointed out to me, a person who is increasingly unable to see. And there had been some snowflakes visible. Listeners had to point it out to me. I did not see it myself the first time. I was like, were there? So some snowflakes last week. Winter of the seasonal variety coming here before the winter of prophecy in the White Walker

Forum. The very cool visual of like blotting out the sun and the eclipse. That was all just really neat. We should recall that Damans put my hand into the werewood tree, sappy bloody goo, vision. the end of season two, Chalina participated in in a fascinating way, also included the apocalyptic winter in white walkers. Would you say winter is cooling across all kinds of dreams? I would say that, given that Egon decided to call his real branding expert,

call his dream, which is defined the story. Song of Ice and Fire. The Song of Ice and Fire. Right. And Georgia Martin's like, hmm. Chris did ask us, you know, because is actual physical winter coming to Westrose? Yes. Tis the season for Winter to Cool.

The Hallmark movies are going to start running Christmas-themed movies in Westrose. But Chris is like, does that mean the White Walkers are coming with? Right. And we did get an email from someone being like, so does Chris think that every time it's winter in Westeros, the ice zombies come? And just to clarify. We should rewatch the beginning of Game of Thrones with Chris. Just to clarify. No.

Correct. Correct. That just happened specifically in terms of like close to the wall and eventually spoiler south of the wall. That was a very specific what happened in Game of Thrones incident. Everyone's like, what the fuck are these fucking things? That's right. You know.

That's right. The others. It wasn't like, oh, winter is coming. Zombie time. You know? What if every time it's snowed? That would be wild. Chris, there's just no one like them.

Speaking of the like or not like, dragon dreams, we should just say, are not the same as three-eyed raven visions or a heron hall vision or a house of the undying vision or a woods witch prophecy, but they're all of a piece and in the brew for George of like, what does my character

see in prophetic form and then do with that information? I mean, I guess, I will say the Thrones TV. The Thrones TV version of of Raven, Three-I Raven Dream or visions. I mean, also fairly like, oh yeah, sort of.

Very, very of a piece. Quick snapshoty esoteric, you know what I mean? Oh, no, question. This is going to evoke brand visions for people. Helena's having more like impressionistic dreams. That's right. That's right. And I was thinking back to what...

More like English majors come analyze what this white horse means here. That's right. And then blog about it. Blog through it. On the London Review of Books. I was thinking about it. to what Condal was saying. Avismal.

At the end of... Look at us making jokes about a podcast. People haven't heard yet. Well, it's a thing that exists. That's true. After the season two finale because of Damon's Heron Hall vision and Helena's dreamwalking access to that.

So cool. Which was awesome. And I think this was on the official pod after the season two finale, he said, and he was talking in general about how Helena was, there was the kind of like increasing clarity to what she was seeing, but it was still very like abstract and impressionistic. But saying this is the point when the world is most rich with dragons and it's very heightened.

So this idea, which kind of connects thematically to what Helena says to Renera, which we'll talk about shortly, about the connection between the dragons and this magic, there's a heightening there. But it is also true that the Targaryen dragon dreamers, the specific slice of prophetic Westerosi story. Targary and Dragon Dreamers, that there were, and there will be in the future of the story, Targaryen Dragon Dreamers, some of which we won't name, because we're going to cover that stuff in other shows, when the dragons weren't around anymore. So there's like an amplifying element. We can say, for example, Darren.

Yes, who we had a blast talking about. We met in Duncan Egg this last season. And so if you watched Duncan Egg, you met Darren the Dreamer and how fucked up he was about the Dragon Dreams that he had. there are no dragons in the time of Dunkin Egg. Right. Right. It's not dragon dependent. But it's like what we've talked about in terms of like the hinges of the world or the place where the veil is thin or all this sort of stuff like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Like magic is coming back to Westrose is the whole theme of Game of Thrones. Right. So the reason that the ice zombies get so free and the reason why Melisondra's fire magic and the reason, you know, is like the dragons are born. Magic is returning. But this is an era of magic. And that makes you really excited for what the fuck Alice can do.

I know. Same. I always love to think about... She's all juiced up. Boy is she! Boy is she! I always love to think about that moment with Lewin and Bran

talking about magic being forgotten and then to contrast that with what we as viewers or as readers are witnessing rising with Danny. I thought I'd read this passage

on the Danny Dragon Dreamfront because this is a dreamer as dragon magic is working back into the world and so the connection there kind of reinforces what we're talking about. This is from A Game of Thrones

I'll be out of it, Lads. I've always loved this passage. Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Oh, that gives me a chill. These books are great. Veseris was not in it this time, other Vesaris.

Always comes back to a Vesaris. There was only her in the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Danny sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma. And when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her.

She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and black in its soft way. Could feel her blood boil and turned to steam. And yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce. And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. George, you rule. Incredible writing.

Oh my God, so good. I would say... Remember when you read that for the first time? I would say, Helena not quite so, you know, emboldened by her dreams. Yeah, she's like, let me get my sketchbook. Work through it. Let me get my needlepoint out. Maybe she's feeling Harriet and harassed in part because Renera is watching her sleep.

Let's talk about this. Yeah, that's tough. Boy. Okay, so there's the warning that Helena issues. Let's talk about that and then we'll hit right after that, kind of just the demeanor. meaner that Rainira is exhibiting in the sequence and the evolution across the scene. I just want someone to be good at something. Um, hmm.

Is anyone good at... Yeah, Wormon's good at seducing Ulf. That happened. Good job. Wonderful ale. Um... A wonderful ale. Yeah. Who else is good at anything?

Jane, Lady Jane in the Vale seems pretty good at whatever. I mean, she's thriving. Masaria, like, seduces the queen. Great job. but seems like a bad mistress of whispers, honestly. Slappy work from Missourri on this episode. What the fuck does she know about what's going on in, you know, flea bottom, et cetera, et cetera. Is Sylvie good at stuff?

We'll find out. But the point is, Reneira, very bad at talking to her literal sister in a way that doesn't, I don't know, Helena looked annoyed and then also like she was pitying Reneira because Reneer was so bad at it, Right. Well, and also the pity of like, you don't, you can't, you're not ready to accept what is happening to you. Like, you can't say it out loud. Didn't you watch the trailer for the season? Allison said, you're going to do things you didn't dream you would ever do.

On the family member front, did you find, I mean, obviously the premise of the Dance of the Dragons, to be clear, is one we understand. This is a Targaryan civil war, a family civil war. But I just found it. There was something so intentionally and effectively jarring about. our father and sister and like using the language of family to really reinforce how estranged these people are from each other. I thought it was very... You know who else should have considered it? Adam and Bela. When they're talking about the nuptials in the future of the fam, maybe...

You've heard from your brother? Yeah. Wait, what? No, but like more like I, your uncle, would love to marry you. But my brother, your other uncle. Listen. Thruples would have saved the kingdom. That's how I feel like.

So you have some feedback on incest, but you would like the brothers to be in the thruple. That doesn't have to be how a thruple works. Okay. You have a hinged person in a thruple. Maybe that's where this will go. Stay tuned for the book spoiler section to find out. Oh, God. I liked this.

It's a hinge. Hinge. Wonderful stuff. Helena. says that she used to love to fly, but now it's too much. We understand why, based on what we've witnessed. And then Reneer is like, yeah, bond. Okay, great, I can work with this.

Let's bond. I feel like, Vesaris felt the same for two seconds. Fesars felt the same. He renounced the strength of dragons and embraced a quieter life. Helena says he did not wish to be changed. You believe the dragons alter us in some way? I thought that surprise from Reneer was like, uh, yeah, Helena's like, duh.

Yeah, and she's also like, didn't work. The first episode of this series was like Viseras telling you exactly that. And we talk about it literally every pod. By way, do you mean you? Yes. And I will again. Yep. Today I won't be stopped.

It won't be stopped. And again, probably next week, who knows? And then probably eight weeks in a row during season four. You now have many dragons. Are you yourself not? Dramatic pause ellipses. Oh, dude. Yeah, that's how she said it.

Was it not? Like she was about to cowabunga. Altude. Dinna-da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-wip. I wish Elena had done that. No. Not the vibe. Not the tone.

That was like the Batman theme song. Yeah, it was really genre mash in there. Vesaris did not renounce Ballarian because he wanted to be a dreamer. He didn't fear dreams. He desperately wanted to be a dreamer. As he said, and that desperation

led to so much of this. So this is a fascinating, like selective memory on our Like a scary war machine dragon, he was like, no thank you. No, thank you. Renounced if you prefer, if you're Damon. Oh, Valerian.

Oh, the black tread. Oh, puppy. Helena's rebuke of the dragon riding family members has been interesting. Like, with Amund, it was very overt, right? Was it worth the price? It won't make any difference. Like, the thing that you're doing and the way that you are living your life is wrong, and I won't participate in it.

But even to Damon and the dreamwalking, it's all a story. and you're but one part of it. You know your part. You know what you must do. And now here, the way that Helena has tried, frankly, in like kind of limited screen time until recently, to reach the, puncture the dragonriding hubris. It's kind of interesting to think about,

especially now that we've glimpsed some of these dreams directly. She should have been the High Tower, targ tower with red hair. I mean, what a fascinating alternate history that is. But Allison was like, I've got to keep you here. Got to marry you to your brother and keep you here. Tough one. dragons, the iron throne,

the prophecy of ice and fire, the effect of power in many forms, this idea for the targ rulers that these things are all entwined, right? So whether you're talking about the idea that you control dragons is an illusion, shot off, Saris. A power of a dimension never have trifled with,

Kalifunga. One of the Prophalaria's tomb. You know, Allison's comments to Renera this season about the crown and the throne and the inevitable kind of cost and price of that power, power and all these forms the path is the same because those things are are inextricable from each other.

The dragon leads you to the throne and the crown. You think you have to keep it because of the prophecy that your dragon dream gave you. The targs. Rich text. Eat shit, CR. Track Renira's tonal evolution across this scene. Not to mention the physical. Yeah.

Also. Yeah. Here's my note for Ranera. Just one? Only one? Just the one. Uh-huh. Take a peep at the needlepoint, maybe.

Let me ask you this. Do you think she still could? Because it's there. She knows it's there. She pulled it out of Helena's hand. She didn't inspect it right there. But if she's so desperate for Helena to tell her something about the future, do you think she'll have a light bulb moment and go back and look at it in the finale?

Maybe. The physicality was shocking, the grabbing of the forearm. Well, I just, it's a burning tower on the needle point this week. And who knows what else is on there? I got to say, you're the one who pointed out, last week's episode that the Heron Hall that she was stitching with the sort of like the Eam and Womb stuff.

Yeah. All the flowers around in it. Do you feel like that was a nightshade sort of reference? Entirely possible. She's like, here's where my mom's going to try to poison my brother. With all those helpful botanical hints I've been giving her all season. Do you think Helena knew that that's what

Allison would do with there? Like, it's just it's a, you know? I think in general this question, and this is on our minds in the sequence because Roneer is like, here's a very specific list of things I want you to tell me about, right? Laundry list of what's up with this person, this person, this setting, this setting. And Elaine's like, I don't know.

You don't know or you won't tell me. That's not how dreams were. So this question, yeah, of like, what has Helena? I mean, the things that Helena said to Amon in the season two finale, like, we have a sense that if that tapestry unfroled further, there would be things from elsewhere in the story, right, all over the timeline that she's like. Kristen Cole. Yeah, so like.

Torren Manderly. Which of those feel like something she can say something about to a character? And which of those feel like things that she can't process but could eventually? But also if she's like, I was dreaming I was in the courtyard with a pale horse. I dreamt I had chickens and my children were still alive. I dream Sabbath of Frey whispered something at the small council meeting. I had to get it on there. I'd do.

At do. Sabbath and Frey showing up in Kingslanding just long enough to make the fuck. fucking tapestry and then piecing out again for hair and all. That shit. I just want everyone who's not watching the podcast but listening to the podcast to know that when Mallory mimed embroidery, she used crochet gestures. I've never crocheted. I was once an enthusiastic knitter back in the day, college.

Loved to knit, made a lot of scarves. Never advanced beyond that, but I found it very soothing. Very soothing. It's a different. It's a winter sport, so it's tough out here in L.A. Reneer, like we speculated last week, because I've got a dreamer here and I want not only to know actionable intel, but to know that I'm the chosen one. Would you say Reneer has a praise kink? Do you think that's what's...

Let's ask Masaria. Misaria, no, she does. Masaria's like, I will feed it for you. Indeed. Here's what Emma Darcy said on Inside the episode. Ryan, Condal. and I spoke about this sort of dissent into tyranny. I think for both of us it felt super important to do that in a way that felt very legible.

It felt like an opportunity to take this relatively sympathetic character and use her to sort of expose something about the corrupting nature of power. Present across the season, present across the series captured quite well in this scene with Helena. I will say, so here's something, you know, I love the inside the episodes. And I love every time I hear Emma Darcy talk about their character. like Emma is so perceptive. I do feel like sometimes on the inside of the episodes, these actors telegraph things that are coming for their characters. You know what I mean?

Like I feel like from last season, Emma has been like, this is going really bad for Rainira. You know, so if someone's watching and they don't know how the story goes, you know, and maybe they'd like to think as soon as Rainer gets to King's Landing, everything's going to be fine. Yeah. I thought the most pronounced example of that.

this season to me was Lonnie. Yeah, but Lonnie, the last episode with the Cut of the Thrones, like, we all know what that means! The Dragon's Dance. Damon and Jane, before we get to some ground battle, have it out again up in the Erie,

because Damon's back in the veil, he's pissed, he charges past the guards and interrupts a very intimate interlude between Jesman Redfort, we think, and our girl, Jane, Air, who is honestly thriving. Come sit on my lap. Can I read the passage from fire and blood about Jane Aaron?

Please. Mushroom tells us that this famous maiden was in truth a high-born harlot with a voracious appetite for men and gives us a salacious tale of how she offered Prince Gassaris, the allegiance to the veil only if he could bring her to climax with his tongue. Septu Eustace repeats the widespread rumor that Jane Aaron prefer. the intimate companionship of other women. It goes on to say it was not true. In this instance, we must be grateful for Grandmaster Monkens, true telling,

for he alone confines himself to the high hall of the eerie rather than its bedchambers. Well, guess what? Jane Aaron's like, the high hall of the area is a bedchamber. Let's fuck. Anywhere could be a bedchamber if you're inventive enough. Exactly. So Jane Aaron's like, publicly, I like to have my hounds here, privately, my consort here. We do think it's Jessamine Redford, who is related to Adrian Redford, who meets his end in this episode.

So a big Redford episode, perhaps. Tough way to go. But yeah, you know, Jane Aaron is, we've talked about this before, Jane Aaron is an interesting counter to Renira in terms of like a woman in power. Yes. So just, I mean, yes, it's a private moment, I guess, in the high hall. But it is still like, she still feels free. Absolutely. To have her girlfriend on the throne with her.

Yes. Masaria, much as she may want to, is not sitting on the sword throne with Rainira. That's not happening. So, you know, double standards depending on how important your throne is. Indeed. But Jane Aron does what she wants, including slapping Dragon Riders and slapping... It's wild. She's an icon.

Other things. This is great because she summoned Damon. He's pissed that Raina's gone. She's like, what does you expect me to do with the Dragon Rider? They don't listen. And he's like, what about, you know, confine her? we have made the dreamy, why don't you just call for your dragon joke all week,

all week, all season. If Jane Aaron had put Raina in a sky cell, Damon, you can't keep a dragon rider in a sky cell because then she actually could have just done, sheppy! Sheepy! Jane's worried about exposure, right? The risk is no longer worth it.

This was always a very tenuous arrangement. And she's like, I'm telling her near, right? I'm going to try to contain this while I can. And Damon says, give me a minute. Give me a beat. He has to very comically have to dramatic pause here, say, please, which I thought set up such a palpable contrast to the like quiet, gentle, I'm leaning in whispering, cupping your face and you're casting me away. Please, Torn Nira. But he says please twice in this episode.

He says sorry in this episode. And here's what I'll have to say. Heron Hall therapy, it works. It really does. It really does. while to see Damon Targary just fall on his ass out in the dragon fight field. Yeah. He's going through it.

Great acting work from Matt Smith. If you do not watch House the Dragons built, the, his shout out. Derrickle. Callum, the dragon puppeteer. What about that one view where he was like, I can't. Yeah, I can't see anything. Yeah. I just have to feel it.

There's a team of people in sort of like blue spandex suits. Yes. like sort of like blue man group, sort of like spandex suits or whatever. But the lead dragon puppeteer is named Callum. Yeah. I'm big fan. Incredible stuff. But he just looks like an absolute asshole in the field in his blue spaniac with this like dumb little blue dragon.

It's incredible. And he's like so committed to the craft. And then they cut to Matt Smith. And he's like, it'll look good on screen. I'm paraphrasing. It'll look good on screen. It was fucking misery. Because he had to like do that fall like 20 different times.

But also Emma Darcy's like. Like, it was a bog. So we, it was like similar. Is that where they shot like Gwen? Yeah. Both double bog episodes? You never go back to the bog. Yeah.

But everyone's falling over in this bog just much like Gwain and Kristen were falling over in the previous bog. Boy, fewer leeches this time at least. Joanna, speaking of people working through some pain. Care to report. How our pal of David Jacoby is doing after a frankly shocking line from Jane area. So our friend David Jacoby, ring her colleague, is the number one Nettles fan, I think, in the world. There's no question. Well, George.

George R. Martin and second only. I think Jacobi could challenge for the top spot. That is how much he cares about this. We've been receiving, like, screed texts from Jacoby for literal years, years upon years. About what's happening with Nettles and then the Raina situation this year. And then when this happened, when Jane Aaron cheekily says, living among the Nettles and the sheep about Raina, and it's like, oh, that's why they call her Nettles or whatever.

Yeah, Jacoby didn't straight up had a bad time about it. Didn't appreciate it. No. Didn't appreciate it. No. Yeah. How did you find it? I believe it.

Jail for everyone. How did you find it? Were you like, oh, Nettles, wink, wink, nond. I like it. I feel seen as a book reader or were you like, this is rude? I think it's fine. Yeah. I thought it was kind of cute.

It'll depend, you know, like, you know, something that I've been wondering is if, you know, if Raina now back, you know, because when Raina is back in Kings Landing and Baila's like, we'll start over. Yeah. She's like, I don't want to do that in either to Sheepie. Yeah. I said canonically, I would never leave him. Since we don't, okay, so we're just guessing here, right? Because we don't know. So different.

Off the book. So this is just a pure guess. But let's say Raina and Sheepie are done. forever. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. But let's say they are. I don't think so. Let's say they are. Yeah. And Rina then gets back on track with her book plot. You think I had a lot of canon and lore questions about C-Smark. So we got a lot of emails about this actually. I will say the constant use of separated and renounced does introduce a question of a conscious uncoupling or forced uncolling. Right. So let's say Rina gets on track. with, and then, like, is a cover story that they could spread, like, that wasn't Raina. That was some wild girl named Nettles.

Sure. You know? Yeah. Just a safe face. Save Dargarian face. They could try. Somebody to think about it. Bail and Adam.

Ormond would do it. He would certainly try. He does. He knows pairs and he knows PR. Another incredible Orman episode, honestly. They all are. They really are. Bail on Adam.

This was someone. the most devastating shit I've ever seen for our beloved Adam. So they're out looking for Vagar. They think that they think they're still looking for Amand. A polycule. Mm-hmm. Great. Something I think about. I'm in. I'm in. Baylor's growing impatient. Says that Reneira is punishing her for the gullet. True. Clearly true. And says that Reneera is using them as tools. Also clearly true. The way that all these riders are either a tool or like an Adam and C-Smokes case, a portent. Or sign a sign or important.

We got a lot of emails from listeners being in this episode questioning, what was the plan if Adam and Baylis spotted Vagar? Because it's not like, with love and respect, moon dancer and C-Smoke could take Vagar. So is the plan, let's go back and report. But Vagar is just constantly on the move. Every time they're out in the field, they're like, we're two days behind. So what was the point of this? My honest response to that is from the team that brought you, let's attack Kings Landing with no army. Like, right?

Yeah. Because like if three dragons got rather and one of them more than the others fucked up by sheepstealer, sheepsteeler's drop in the bucket compared to Vagar. So like, you know, just like what on earth were a moon dancer who is a young, young dragon and see-smoke supposed to do with Vagar? I mean. And so is Reneur has sent them out on a suicide mission, essentially? I don't think she would because Certainly doesn't want to lose Adam

I was not to say Not because she cares about bailo But because she's like Adam My, my, you know My symbol of my legitimacy The proof that I'm ordained The sign from the gods Um

Ormond uses Sign from the gods As if I get to fuck my name And then he's like Oops my brother was there first This is just an incredible Incredible story That we've devoted our careers

To covering Tough for me My brother Fucked my knees first It was so brutal It really was so brutal. I felt bad for Adam. It was such a sweet appeal.

Will you help? Will you help me? Yeah. Become legitimized Philarians in case we, you know, one of us meets a high-born lady. I just really like Clinton Liberty. He's great. He's like very good. He's fantastic.

The pain on his, they didn't have to really work through this here because there's a shriek, you know, announcing sheepstealer in the distance. But they're going to have to work through this eventually. And I will say I was relieved that this happened because I was worried that the superior... Sorry, I'm picking up my phone for a reason. Not because I said, I'm disrespecting you. Because I remembered I took a photo of the screen and the scene. Let's see it. Because there's a big question from the listeners of whether or not this is a pile of dragon shit.

Is that a rock or is that a pile of dragon shit behind Bailen and Adam? Is this good podcasting? Interesting. Carlos, let's toss that up on the big screen. I think it is. That could be a, that could be a, that could be a giant turd. Yeah. I think it is.

It could be a rock. It doesn't really look like a rock because it has some like texture to it. Like, you know. Yeah. Our best comp is the Tyrannosaurus shit in Jurassic Park. Yeah. Anyway, that's, I took a photo of it with my phone so that you could look at it and weigh in on whether or not you thought it was a pile of shit.

I'm in. And what if that hit or not? from above. I mean, from the moment that the smell was introduced, the possibility that Ormond would have to contend with Dragon Dung at some point has been tantalizing. I know we've been talking about it, but to actually see how expansive the turds are, and is that supposed to be a vagar turd? Yeah.

You know, so they're tracking and they're like, ah, pile of vagar shit. How many piles of Vagar shit have they had to sort of like live their life around? That's a great question. Is that how they're actually able to tell how many days it's been? because like the scorch mark I would want them to get the big long glove that Laura Dern gets in Jurassic Park so they could like forge around

and be like oh berries and stones hasn't hardened it's been two days yeah this is the best the best that's probably what that was I think it was

I mean I can see a snowflake so I don't know and I will just say the restraint to not like make a shit joke or like have Adamfall face first into whatever they're just like we're just going to put a giant pile of of Dragon Dung behind these two characters while he's getting his heartbroken.

The show famous for constraint. I know. So I'm saying, what if he recoiled and hurt? Fell into the shit. To find out that his niece had fucked his brother and then he's like, and when he wanted to fuck her himself, and then he just like fell into a pile of dragon shit. It's a different show. That's Dunkin' Egg.

It is. Diary Dunk, remember him? What do you think poop robins suck to? Oh, God. I'm glad that the chemistry between these things. who was not like an own goal in the show didn't realize and actually was setting up this tension, which it's a relief.

I disagree in that I... You still think it's a mistake? I still... I mean, that they're using it for something, sure. That Adam, when he's like, take a rest, have a snack, like previous in the season, it's because he, like, fancies his niece. Okay, that's lovely.

I'm not going to let it go. Incest, remember it. But they're still out scorching, Adam and Bailet. I still think that's a problem. You know? There's no question. For Bailet to Coyle be like, oh, did your brother talk to you? Like, as if she had any kind of...

Yeah, basic instinct. The fuck in the century. Was it? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, God, maybe if they're surrounded by piles of dragon shit, that's why these two haven't fucked, though. It's not the most romantic setting.

Yeah, you've got the open air. But the aroma. Yeah. There was a thing when I lived in Sonoma County. I can't wait to see what you say next, given that we've been talking about, heaping piles of dragon shit and incest. It's about cow shit. Great. Sonoma County, where we're in, there's a lot of cattle.

I also went to school at UC Davis where there's a lot of cattle. And so in both places, when the weather gets quite warm, it just kind of reeks of manure. That's just the realities of living in Davis and Sonoma. Two places I've lived in my life. In Sonoma, they call it the Sonoma aroma, like when the heat hits and the. Winds are not blowing it out to sea, and all you can smell is manure. That's the Sonoma aroma. A Laris-esque spin job.

It will be my duty to ensure that they refer to it as the Sonoma aroma. In honor of his grace's bravery. You're going to work on my British accent before next season. I'm not as impeccable. Why would you? Cow bugger. Oofin Maker. We haven't heard of call us to do that in a while, which is sad. Bold John, get it together.

Fucking Bold John. Start Slicen and Dyson. I know, for real. Speaking of Slicin and Dyson, Adam and Bala, sheepy news to share with the Small Council, of course. But before that, we get a glimpse once again of Reneira's small counsel on absolute tatters. I did feel that there was momentum in this scene, though. Like, they're a shit show, as always, but they were talking about some new things.

Like the shit show that is Torin Mandele's pieter. This was so funny. It was so validating to me because we were like, why would Toran Manderly have a house in town? And he's like, okay, he does have a pieterterre in Kings Landing. That's great. Shit smeared great. And then he was like, I've been set up as a scapegoat. All-time reaction shot from Missaria.

She literally did the Homer Simpson retreating into the bushes meme. There's also in this small council scene, there's a sort of. camera up from above, a really episode three shot of Reneira, sort of like camera dramatic angle down, and she's tapping her fingers. But we get no finger cut check-in in this episode. That's right. We don't. No, how's the magical leprosy going for Reneer in this episode?

No. You're right. Je protest. Oh, God. I thought that Reneira's gaslighting, because we were, we talked previously in prior episodes about the very, like, like. There was nothing subtle about the way that they were actually scapegoating Toran talking in the throne room about, well, blame him was kind of absurd. I thought that the gaslighting from Finanira in this scene was hysterical when she's like, well, what have you been doing about it?

Incredible. Really, really, really good. Really, really good. This is where Sabbatha is like, you know, if a child asks enough times in a row for a cookie before bed, maybe they'll get it. And Reneira's just like, fucking take it. Go. And can you make sure Amin's dead while you're at it? Here's what she says.

If Sir Adrian has been successful in his endeavor, of course, then there's a small matter of Haran Hall. So let's go through the things that Sabbath of Frey knows that there is a prophecy. No details on the prophecy, but there is a prophecy. I still can't handle this. You're still upset. We've got a lot of emails telling you to chill out about it, but it's okay. I won't.

I won't. And then she knows that Reneera sent her queen's guard to go murder. Like, why does Sabbath the. Frey know about that plan? Why? Why? I don't know idea. And also, I mean, so if you'll recall, I mean, we've already stated in this episode and constantly throughout the season. The thesis of the season is Reneira will have to do things she never dreamed she thought she would do once she's wearing the crown and sitting on the throne. Right. It does this to you. It power corrupts, whatever you prefer. Yeah. But I was thinking, as I often do, of our guy at Luthin,

condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them because who sent a king's guard to assassinate a would-be heir. It was our guy, Kristen Cole, by our guy, I mean not, who orchestrated the cargo bowl. And when he did it, it was such a fucking, like, big deal violation that he did this, you know? So Reneer is like, I'll do this, I guess, I'll do the same thing. She's been doing the full Luthyn since she was talking about sharing her dreams with ghosts in episode three. Yeah. Luth and hive rise always no not the only time that Andor's going to come up to that Killed Monny

fucking spoiler dude For Andor Fuck you if you haven't seen Andor You're the problem Oh my God What did you think of just the fact that Renera is honoring a pledge But only because it suits her and because she's lost her patience completely She's not like giving you Heron Hall's the right thing

Because Jace said it should be yours Go go get herons that like whistle fog soundscape change kicks in again whining yeah yeah very good when uh the news that sheepies in fair market with the rider dun dun dun dun is shared we're going to talk about the masaria rinereran rinerer damon masaria damon aspect of this separately we're going to stick with the dragon stuff for now we'll hit that next damon finds rena Craxies and Damon take sheepstealer and Raina down so that father and daughter can enjoy a cool, calm collected chap.

Work through it. Maybe it'll be fine. I thought that Raina helpfully shared a little reminder and a pre-Dragon brawl warning. He does not heed me. He does not heed me. This admission that there is no control here, which is very much on display.

That the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion? I'm familiar with Valeria. I have a question for you. Are you familiar with the concept of love being the death of duty? Would you apply love being the death of duty to this Damon-Ranier-R-R-R-R-A-S situation? Because so it is, okay, is it, I think it's more complicated in that. Because if you're saying Damon's love for his daughter, his newfound love for his daughter, Raina, which at least he owned.

Yeah. And this episode, it really satisfied me in this episode to, I almost wish, like, we had had that first encounter and then this one, and then I was meant to buy sort of like his conversion rather than like have it happen like instantly earlier in the season. Yeah. I could buy it here. But so newfound love for his daughter. Oops, I was a bad dad for his daughter, Raina. So that's love.

Yeah. And his duty being to his queen to inform her about what's going on with sheepsealer being honest. But his queen is his wife. Right. And the tenderness with which he says, you are my wife later. There should be love there as well. So it's just like a, you know, it's... Turns out incest and family civil wars complicate this question.

I wouldn't marry miney's. Brave take. Thanks. Brave take. Do you have an offer to Chase Fagar with her? That was sweet. Aw, the family that goes on suicide submissions together, stays together. For a minute, at least.

I thought it was quite sad when Raina's like, Why? Why would you help me? I don't believe that you would help me. That was a pretty crushing moment for Damon and for Damon stands. He says, basically, because I get it. I get a lot of it. I get that I've been a bad dad. And also, I had no dragon either when I was young. Did you know that? My mother died in childbed when I was three years of age. My mother who I wanted to fuck. Jackout season two. Don't worry about it. My brother sank into sadness. I was alone just as you've been. I should have done better, Raina. His dad also died, but he's more interested in his mom, the one he wanted to fuck. Yeah. I think all the mentions of like Viseris and Damon when they were younger in their relationships to dragons. And also does that give us once again another Amid Damon connection? Yes, of course it does. Yes. I didn't have a dragon when I was younger.

I felt sad. And then I got the long boy himself for Piraxie. That's right. Sweet bloodworm. When this had come up previously in the show, there was a little bit of the comedy. And it's actually kind of like it's stark to think back to it now, given this rift between Bela and Reneira. but Bela and Reneera in midway through season two in episode five were talking about when they were mourning Raineese and Maly's. Did your grandmother ever tell you of the night she claimed Maly's?

She snuck in the dragon pit. She knew that place better than any. They say she could even see in the dark. My father was furious. His own mother, who we wanted to fuck. His own mother's dragon, the fastest beast ever known, and she'd have none of him. But bent her neck to Reneas. So this idea that he wanted Maly's to be close to his mummy.

And she wouldn't have them. The Red Queen. And the pursuit and the weight. Interesting. I think this idea that Damon maybe on some level was more distant from the daughter who reminded himself of him in some capacity. And then that unlocks this very, again, Viseris doomed to repeat it if we don't need our history's idea. And just Damon kind of reckoning with the failures as a father, failure in all respects, limitations in all respects across this season. And, like, I was thinking back to our conversation about that sequence with Raina and Damon in episode four.

Actually, later in this episode, when Damon, and we'll talk about this more when we get to it, but Damon and Renera, when Renera is like, what did you think I was going to do? And, like, Demon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't forget, Alinda's also there. Linda is watching. I did love that camera shot of Alinda's face. Like, I don't want to be here. Can I be anyone?

Talk about disappearing into the hedge. That's Alinda Massey. I was going to make a joke. about how Damon wanted to disappear into the hedge. And I decided not to, and then I said I was going to do it. So here we are. But the, like, idea that Damon specifically is actually the one who was coaching and guiding Reneira toward embracing the violence.

And then it's, like, having to stare in the face of potential consequence of that welding and hewing of the sword. Like, what if it comes toward your family, toward your child? This isn't interesting. Speaking of violence, tooth and claw time. This scene is not in the books and it was awesome. It was great. It was awesome.

Remember on Talk the Thrones when CR was like, oh, a bunch of dragons are injured now and you and I were like, that was great. That was great moments. I was great moments, honestly. That was fun. We did not fucking think about that. C.R. really blew my mind there. Got me.

Got me good. Great stuff. Raina and Damon are interrupted by the arrival of Adam and Renera, because the Reneira Masaria, sorry a conversation that we'll talk about in a bit, sends Reneer out

into the field. And she brings you, Adam, not you, Baila. Not you, Bela. And Rana thinks that Damon betrayed her. Again, very sad. And Damon's like,

I swear I didn't run. Syrac's lands so hard and so angry, so clearly channeling Reneira's rage. We've shared this passage a number of times across our seasons,

but some will claim that the bond between a dragon and dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. Could really feel that in this sequence, I thought, even though it's paired deliciously with the fact that, like, the bond is that deep, there's no control.

And both those things are true. And then this is what it looks like. The four dragons forming a circle with the little tiny people, these powerful beings in the realm who are specks in the middle of that circle. Such a great visual. And to your point, like watching Damon, and Dame Diamond Targary and, you know, like the fiercest warrior fall on his ass. It was great.

Incredible. The queen of the realm sort of like hunched over and like cowering. And, you know, Adam acquitted himself pretty well. Adam, perfect. As usual, we have no notes for Adam except that he wants to commit incest. But so does everyone else in the story. Chases down his would-be future sister-in-law slash niece. What did she make of this?

Renera saying to Damon, this is before the full conference. And as carnage unfolds here. Answer carefully. You will not have another chance to deceive me. Like, the Rakaris. Because I won't trust you or because you're going to be fucking dead. I'm going to kill you. Yeah. I'm going to kill you. Absolutely. Big yikes energy here. I mean, yikes from everyone, honestly. Um, in the book, there is this question of like, Damon's, uh, protectiveness towards Nettle. Yes. Is it because Nettles is his daughter? Mm-hmm. You know, which is, the a version of which they've decided to go with the show, or is it his lover, right? And this is something like Rainer is convinced.

Yes. That Masaria is pushing on. I think this is fine to talk about. Yeah, I think it's fine to talk about because I really don't think they're going there with Damon and Raina. I think they've just clean swapped. He lied to you about the dragon for he's fucking her in terms of Masaria's pursuits at least. Sure. But I'm just saying, like, despite all the insists on the show, I do not think they're going to say,

let's do a love story between Damon and Raina. I don't think it's happening. So I think it's fine to say that this is like a rumor or supposition never confirmed, but this is what Reneera believes that like Damon and Nettles are having a sexual affair. And Masaria is pushing this message, et cetera. Right. So but so when Reneera like lands and is like, you know, what do you know of sheepsteeler's rider? Like I really felt that like, are you fucking this?

Before she finds out it is, it's Raina. Yeah. I felt a real like. What is the nature of this relationship? What is going with the confidence? fuck is going on here. Totally. And then she's like, oh my God, it's right now.

Right. The show is like, guys, we're not going to do that. On our program, Damon only wants to fuck his mom, not his daughter. His mom and his niece. We love uncles and nieces. Oh, God. Not father, daughter. Step too far.

Never. There's a limit. Yeah. Even for House of the Dragon. Adam drags ran a forward. Renera learns the truth. To her astonishment, lets out that this is for. finished, Raina kind of falls to her knees and Ranira begins to move forward toward her,

which was on my mind later when Ranera was like, what did you think I was going to do? I was like, well, I was pretty scared for a second there as you charged forward just to take her prisoner maybe, but like it was all a fair. There's a lot of violent, there's a lot of violence on display here. And then Sheepie is like, no, you won't. No. Charges forward to defend his rider. I find the bond between sheepstiller and Raina in this sequence and in general quite beautiful,

and so it's devastating that they've been parted. No. Raina's like anguish. It reminded me so much of his dark materials when Lyra and Pan are sort of like pulled apart from each other. Yeah. Just sort of like great call. Just the soul rending experience of being separated from your dragon.

Yeah. Yes. And the shriek that sheepstealer emits is like Raina is flying off. That was just really, really, really awful. the fight itself. Carnage, chaos, and it's on the ground, which is a new twist and new flavor for us for Dragon War. Yeah, in broad daylight. Yeah. Various permutations of three-on-one, sheepy. Sheep has to fight all of the other dragons at some point, including more than one of that at a time. Syrax, as you know, to take some pretty serious. It's like able to fly off, which is sheepstealer's not.

Sheep Steeler tries to look away. But I was, like, worried. A lot of cuts. A lot of cuts. Throat chomping, and then Syrax gets a really good nail. Like, that one of those, like, hissings. steam coming out, sort of nail swipes at sheepseller. Yeah. I mean, it's very sad, but looked amazing in this sequence. Seas smoke gets tossed around a bit. Karexies takes the least damage by far among the set, sheepstealer the most. But Syrac's definitely very heavily wounded.

And that was, I mean, it was fun to see Syrac in the field, but sad to see Syrac's take the damage like that. So, C.R. asked us on Talk the Thrones, sort of like, who is the baddest dragon in this brawl? And you and I slightly disagreed, though conceded that he did. other had good points. And the internet seems largely on your side, but I just wanted to give you that. But also, I'm sticking by, I think your point that supported me, which is that sheep Steeler survived, uh, survived a three on one attack is Keraxie's like slicker has better moves. Like all of that is true. It's just, you know, sheep sealer's bigger, tough, like the, the hide gets tougher. Yeah. Yeah. Is Kraxie the more adept fighter? Absolutely. In this, in this,

In this stretch of the story, sheep stealer has, other than the complete fumble of the gullet, no battle experience within this kind of setting, whereas Krakse's is just like a seasoned warrior. You know, the time with Aymand and the-Serve out in the rough, you know? Compare that to the fourth Dornish War with Aymond. I don't know. You survived. And then the stepson's. And now this.

I mean, yeah, cannibal is no fucking joke. No fucking joke. We're going to see cannibal at some point? I'd love it. I really hope so. The fight was amazing in terms of just the choreography of it and how cool it looked, but more importantly, in season 3 episode 7, where we've seen a lot of Dragon Carnage, but we're heading into not only the finale of this season, but the final stretch of House of the Dragon.

We got one more season left, and unless, I mean, I guess they could change this. It's based on our reports and announcements to this point. Eight episodes in season four, right? So we're in the end game-ish now. We're in the end game now. We're in the end game now. A very, like, riveting and effective way to remind us as the dance continues what Dragon War actually looks like, right? The illusion of control, as we've talked about many times, that opening warning, Joe, from the Great Council, which you mentioned on Talk of the Thrones, the idea, right?

The only thing that can tear down the house of the dragon is itself. You see that rendered so clearly here in a way that you really is, like, it's undeniable. Well, and as you brought up on Talk of Thrones, this is Team Black on Team Black violence. I mean, Raina and Sheepie undeclared, but like, no team green here. And this is still devastation. I mean, this is just such a fumble, Han fumble. Raniara, I'm really rooting for you. But like, we could make Raina and Sheep Steeler an asset.

No, I understand. Like, the Jace trauma is real. But there's like no attempt to be like, oh, Raina claimed a big fuck off dragon. Right. What can we do with us? Let's redo the Dragon Math. I thought that was pretty interesting as a throughline in this episode. cross-character sets, like confronted with some new thing in real time, can you pivot?

Like, that's the best example of it. A lesser example, but still interesting to me was like, the level of remorse and repentance that Aemond, a flawed character who's made mistakes, shows to Allison when talking about egg on. And she's like, yada, yada, yeah, yeah, drink that poison. Not like, what if we tried to make this work and challenged Reneera? Let's get on Begar, go get your sister, and go raise some chickens. Can we have chickens here at Harenhall? Would your goth girlfriend and joy if not only your mom was here, but also. She's ringing a neck and the blonde goes right into the gautry.

Come on. But when you loved, I really think Alice would love Helena. They, think of the things that could drink together. Talk about a spinoff we deserve. I know. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Oh, that would be great. That would be great. So let's find Vagar. Wherever the fuck is she baby. Let's go get your sister. I love it. I'm in. the reminder that dragons can kill dragons and have,

to quote the fire blood passage that is so germane to the text. And as we mentioned on Talk to Thrones, Damon was the one at the end of season one who voiced that line. But the thing that he said after it, it wasn't just it's no easy thing for a man to be a dragon slayer, but dragons can kill dragons and has. He moved right from that into dragon math, right?

The simple truth is this, we have more dragons. When you see the way the dragons can hurt each other. Now, have people killed dragons? Yes. including in some very PTSD moments at the end of Game of Thrones. But also, as we've talked about recently, like hellhole, right? Other examples as well. When they kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet?

I just saw never. I'll simply never recover for it. Never. Never. We're going to redo the Dragon Math at the end of this episode. We will. We will. We will recount the sides.

I mean, this has been a massive shift inside of this episode and multiple counts. So we've seen, Joe. We've seen how dragons can harm each other, but this really like crystallizes something, right? Shipbreaker Bay. Amon and Begar against Luke and Arak's RIP. Tough one. It's like a trisket, a little, one bite. Done. Brutal. Not even a trisket because sometimes that can take two bites. It's like one of those little trisket triangles. That's right. Yeah. And like a little point of the triangle falls and then Reneer found it later. That was it. Brutal. Rook's rest, obviously. Amund and Vagar versus Rainis and Males dead, devastating. And then burning Agon and Sunfire, who lives. And, you know, the gullet is different, but we see the dragons. Oh, you're blaming sheepsteeler.

Unlike everybody else, I'm not blaming sheepsteeler. I'm still blaming chase, who I miss, but who never should have gone into that setting. You know, and we've talked about this, and Magar, the Cruel a lot this season, but Magor and Belaerian versus Egon, different Egonne, son of Aeneas, and Quicksilver, at the God's Eye, at Heron Hall, one of the most famous, and it precedes this stretch in the timeline. so these characters know that history. Silver Wing, she's a goer. She's been tested.

Here's the thing. I don't like to tell Reneer what she can't do, much like John Locke. Yeah. But I believe women can do things. Given how shittalice Syrax acquitted herself inside of this fight, how well do you think Roneer would have done at the gullet?

You know, this is an interesting question because the catch-22 of this, This is kind of where Jason and Viramax found themselves because Jace was like, send me out, send me out. No, no, no. And then it's like, are you ready? Should Yaron have been able to kill Regal that quickly? I say no. I say no, folks.

No. But if those dragons had been able to grow and bond and not been chained in the catacombs of marine. The Syrac is more mature than Vermax for sure. No question. But I'm just like, sorry, I pronounce Syracs like nine different ways constantly. I don't know. Like young Raneer on Syrax was just like such a cool action couple.

And now it just feels like... Auto shit his pants. Yeah. Now it just feels like these ladies are too delicate for war and I don't like that transition. I thought Syrax did like... Put up a shot or two.

Put up a shot or two. No? Zero points? You say zero points. No, I mean, she just got that swipin. That nail's swiped. Masaria.

Making her moves. So Masaria is feeling the pull of power here. After that small council sequence, Masaria, just immediately following Roneira. Once again, this conversation taking place in a hallway, grabbing Runeira in a hallway, Queen's Guard there, who else is seeing this? Shocking stuff as usual.

Well, and then she goes like, uh, you know, and peddles it back. Yeah. Who can say what allegiance he may have formed in secret when he found you lacking? Wild. I thought in general, Masaria in this episode and the conversations with Reneer,

your favorite character? Masaria? I do think she'd be... I stand by the podcasting take. I find Misariya interesting to watch. Not sure she'd crack my top 20 favorite characters, but I do think she's very interesting. I think there's this very sincere, obviously,

attempt to diminish Damon, to elbow him out of the way. But so much of what was happening in this episode in particular was very much fueled by projecting, knowing that she has done these things, too. I found it necessary, and I was glad that Reneer called her out on that later. Oh, yes.

And again, we talked about this and talked to Thrones, there are multiple times inside this episode when a character sort of concedes the other side of an argument, you know. And I think that's really interesting. But what I think about what's going on with Masaria here is she tries, she goes for a slightly physically aggressive move, not what I would do in front of a Queens Guard, found you lacking, as you point out.

Tracking, yeah. But later, and sort of, so I, I mean, that's all complimentary. But, like, when Sylvie says, like, once a horror, always a whore essentially to her, Masaria. Masaria then using the skills of a sex worker, which is, like, identify what your client, your target, whatever the case may be, wants. Yeah. And give it to them, right? Frankly, a lesson Reneira could stand to learn.

And so, you know, she said she calls her lacking. And elsewhere in the season, Damon said to Reneera, and you noted this in plain English, shout. in the sept, you're better than this, Renira, right? But Renira, who may or may not have a praise kank, does not want to hear that. No. That's not going to help at all. Affirmation. She needs words of affirmation.

Yes. Again, I reject the, well, this will be on a different podcast, but the love language concept is flawed, but Renira needs to be flattered and cajoled, as Sylvie mentioned. And so this is the, you're talking about pivoting. I'm sorry, it does a good pivot inside of this episode. For sure. You know, goes from like, he thinks less of you to be like, I, but I know, you are worthy. You're doing great.

You're crushing it. You're crushing it. Let's fuck. I thought that the way Masaria, like, adjusted from the past and also connected back to it in this episode was pretty fascinating to watch. And Damon is obviously for Reneer on Miseria, a character who unlocks so much of that for both of them. I liked when Masaria asked, is there anything Damon could do that you would be? truly not believe? Because the conversation that that brought to mind to me was one between Damon and Renira about Allison back on Driftmark and in season one, episode seven, I do not believe

Allison capable of cold murder. Damon replies, each of us is capable of depravity more than you would believe, to which Reneer replied, I believe it of you. So this idea that again, in trying to point out how the other person vying for affection is not to be trusted, it comes back on you. To be clear, Damon straight up murdered his wife. So, you know, just when they think about it in the veil. It's not an unjust... Murder-cloak era. It's not an unjust accusation.

I mean, so much of the blood in the story is on Damon's hands. Blood and cheese? We've got notes. We've got notes. Masaria also involved in that. Yes. Well, that's... There's a lot of hypocrisy from Masaria, too.

Everyone. All of them. Fucking best. The best. Let's all go to Heron Hall and have some... Dream therapy. Tell me what you thought about this Sylvie Masaria scene, which we should know it takes place while Reneera is gone, right?

So we have, I would say. Where are the cats in this episode? Great question. Great question. I mean, busy chasing the rats, but I have not seen nearly enough of them. We have no reason to believe, I would say, no reason to believe. Other than maybe earlier in the season Reneer being like, do it in the way only you can, no reason to believe that Masaria positioning herself in the fucking throne room as Reneer's

proxy is sanctioned by Reneera. old? Yeah. Real stunting for your farmer co-worker to just sort of like to show them how good you have it now. Yeah. And Sylvie calls her out for it.

She does. As we mentioned on Talk the Thrones, to me this felt like a real Varus and Little Finger talking about the realm in front of the Iron Throne sort of moment, this idea of like the manipulators, the strivers, the whispers inside of the throne.

I don't know how Sylvie is being characterized. Like, you know, she's done, you know, some skullduggery for for Masaria, but she's also being kind of positioned as this like true voice of the people. True voice of the people. Yeah. Yes. Which I think is interesting. And I don't think either of that really exists between Varys and Littlefinger. So it's not a clean comp. But still just like these two non-royals standing in front of the Iron Throne in an empty throne room cannot help but remind us of that scene. And, you know, chaos is a ladder. Time is all. The fall is all, you know, sort of thing. Different scene, obviously, but Varus at least gives us the realm someone must energy. Yeah, the realm. Someone must create stuff. No, Varus claims to be.

Yes. Is anyone really? And that's obviously part of what the show is interested in. You know, I was thinking back to Masaria saying to Damon in real peak, what is this accent, season one, episode two, territory when they absconded. with the dragon egg, Damon did, to Dragonstone back in the power duo Cyrax. Renair used to ride Dragonback with Damon. That's right, got on a croxies. Do you think Renere, I'll take her on a ride on Syrac's? It's entirely possible.

It's entirely possible. Anytime we talk about riding dragons as a sexual euphemism. It makes me of Jora to alter the dragon. But also, and plenty of people pointing this out, Sylvie wrote the dragon that is That's right. I'm sorry. I rode the dragon that is Damon once again. Well, for a while there and then tough.

Yeah. But she did. It happens to everyone. She did as a point. So these two women have fucked princes. The dark mirrors. Yes. You are Targaryen.

This is what Masari I said to Damon in season one, episode two. You can afford to play your stupid games with the king, but I cannot. I didn't come into your service wanting gold or power or stuaries. I came to you to be liberated, liberated from what fear? And I think that when Masaria says that there, it doesn't mean there's no, like, striver element to her character at that point, but there's a sincerity there. Much as, like we've talked about earlier in the season,

I think when Masaria committed, pledged herself to Reneera and said, like, you, I think, are steadfast. That felt sincere. And then it's another character's version of, well, what does that proximity to power? Power. Well, I got one week at the White Lotus. And I'm hooked, like, when Sylvie's like, look at what you're wearing. A year.

That silk is a year of my salary. I mean, those massages. What are you going to do? Wonderful. Listen. Wonderful. Masaria had an escape. And then it was the cargo bowl that brought her back to Renira.

They've contributed so much. Some sort of, you know, loyalty there to Renair. There's genuinely something there along with, I would say, ambition and striving. I believe there's genuinely like a Ruta Bega. every pot sort of energy from Masari. Oh, yeah. No question. But it has its limits. I mean, and part of the ambition, part of the striver is like, choose me.

So those things aren't, they don't feel to me like mutually exclusive from each other. Yeah. Grazen Atta. I've never seen a second of Grayson at me. I mean, I've seen a second of it because I've seen clips. Never seen a full episode. To your question about like Sylvie and the positioning, I think we are getting, will it hold? Who knows? Because does it hold for anyone? But so far it feels like we are getting a more entrenched and sincere, I actually am going to stand for the small folk and stick with that than we've gotten from other characters. Thinking back to the Amin Cuddle Fest, you know, it's the small folk

like me who suffer into challenging Renera at the petition of like, remember who got you here, it's always been, we've not actually really had a sequence with Sylvia that wasn't about that other than the first little eyebrow raisin waggle at Amon. Yeah. So I would give the same note that I would give to the writing of Allen, which is like, let's slightly divers. If this is a character that's going to stick around and be used in season four, which it might be like... Well, this time we got the throne reminds me of a hundred buying cocks. Like, give her a cat or something, you know, a pet. Maybe that's where all the cats are.

Maybe there were Sylvia and we'll find out. That would be great. She had a lot of milk there. Oh, God. Great stuff. You are changed. This has changed you. That's what Sylvie says to Masaria.

If Sylvie had a dragon, she'd melt the throne down. No question. No question. I know what that throne does. to people. I know. But then what would Drogan have done later? You know, how would he have filled his calendar?

That's true. Remember that? I do. Just wild. Let's just keep talking about the end of Game of Thrones. Wild stuff. Oh, ma'am. Renira, receiving Damon.

I loved this move. Incredible. I love the move to keep Alinda Massey there because... Your favorite character? I do love Alinda Massey. She's great. But I think... I am always nervous about Alinda Massey.

I am worried that she is reporting to Masaria. I think all of that is something that's on my mind. And she might have inside of this episode, which might have helped Missaria in her tactics at the end of this episode. So that's all possible. But Reneer keeping Alinda there to be like, you're not going to dignitize me, Damon. Like you can't, you know, you can't cajol. You can't seduce me into agreeing with you or forgiving you or whatever. This is not going to end with a tumble in the sheets.

You can cut my cheek, but nothing else. Yeah, that's it. Did you think there was any element of wanting to, like, shame him by making him declare these very private things with a witness? Or even just the proximity of someone who she trusts or was it all. I kind of feel like Damon would shout it. We're not going to fuck our way out of us. That was what I read in it, too. The tenderness on display from Damon here.

Again, this is Matt Smith's reading of this character, that he, like, genuinely loves Renera, that he's a real lover boy. Did you see the photo of Jamie Campbellbauer for Rings of Power that was circulating and how much he loved? looked like Gwain Hightower and his armor. And the hair are like identical. Gwaincore. I mean, can he high kick his way off a horse. I was just going to say, can't wait to see him jump off a horse and reference something that I don't remember from the episode and didn't see the meme of. Can't wait.

I'll show it to you later. But the, yeah, the lover boy, the lover boy era for Damon. This is sincere. He is being genuinely sincere. It is hard for me to fully understand this character or pivot, but I am intrigued by. I love it. I think that Damon is the, you know, and George's stated, I'm paraphrasing, but like favorite character because of the complexities. I'm contradicting the human heart show. To some, he is the blackest villain that ever existed. It's the only thing worth writing about,

and to others. And so I like that all of these things are in the, in the brew with Damon. On the, this is when Renera's like, what, from what, what do you think I am? I like that later when Renera goes to Masaria. there's a rationality on display. He didn't, he wasn't trying to hurt me. He was trying to help and protect his daughter. That's what I'm saying about, yeah, people can see. Yeah, yeah. But in this moment,

there's no embrace. There's no path to reconciliation because the hurt is so deep. For a lot of reasons, but this feels like top among them. What do you think I am? Yes. What does it mean if all the people closest to me in my life? Allison's like, Allison think I'm going to kill babies.

Yeah. Or their daughters. Like, what a mirror. for Reneira to have to hold up to herself here. It's just like, fine. You paint me a villain, I'll be a villain. But like, I think just so high on the list of Reneer's complaints here, honestly, or I don't know, high, but it's well at the list. Is embarrassment?

Sure. About all the time she spent staring at this skull that was just a random goat herder's skull. Yeah. You lied to me. I believed you and every night I looked at that and thought I got my vengeance. You made a fool of me. I just stared at a skull that belonged to a stranger. because you duped me. How fucking mortifying. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Only to me worth it for the payoff of seeing Renera pick up the skull. Oh, you're going to draft her? And hurl it into the center of the fucking strike zone. I was like, aspirational. Unlike me, Renira has her arm straight on your pitch. Okay, let me tell you this. I was going to text to you guys over the weekend and then I was too ashamed. I did go this weekend for the first time, even though it is already August, out to a park. I told you Adam and I had done a little light with a little foam training ball, just kind of working on, you know, some mechanics. Went out with the actual ball for the first time.

I would say that I have neither the arm strength nor the accuracy nor the mechanical predictability necessary to deliver a successful first pitch in two weeks. but I do have an unbelievable amount of pain in my shoulder since then. So we'll see when I'm ready to get back out there. But it's been humbling. And Reneira is in this way and perhaps this way only currently inspiring me to a different course. Tough one. Really tough one. So Runaer can't sleep.

She tosses the skull and she goes and seeks out Masaria. This episode is a real one for like a bunch of different images that really confused us in the trailer. The Helena giving birth scene. The skull in the fire place where we were like, whose skull is that? But those are still two and three on the list after the burning, the bonfire of the bed. Oh, that was an all time. When I checked every headboard. Free spray Robinson moment. Blueprint of the Red Keep. And the heaviest family has. I know. It was amazing. Oh, man. Trailer breakdowns. They're really good for our mental health. Oh, God. Great stuff. Anyway, Helena.

Well, we did guess in the trailer that Helena giving birth would might be a dream, but I did think it was Amon's dream in Harenhall. Yeah, I wish I liked that theory. But this is Helena's dream. And then the skull, we just were wrong on nine different paths. I don't even remember what we said. I think we were like, Jace. I can say that now.

It's still a little bit of a spoiler. Sorry, that made me so scared. Jase. It was Jays. We can say that. We thought it might be Jays. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. There was a theory going around that it was a specific. Saris's like moldering head that had just been like laying around somehow. I don't know. Man. I would have gotten rid of all of the Saris's body parts. A real phrase. It's incredible.

Masaria basically is like, speaking of Vassaris, right? Says, only thing I ever did was tell you that, you know, exactly what you wanted to hear about your dad. Right. And then does exactly, says the thing she's doing, then does it completely. Like, I just tell you what you want to hear. And I will just say this. the first fucking time, thank you, Renira's like, you know what? Yeah.

Being like Versaeris, not great, actually. I'm interested, it was heartening to hear. I'm interested to see if Renera can kind of bridge on the heels of that comment, whether Renera can bridge this maybe clearer view, more complete view of what it would mean to try to make your policy basically how Vassaris ran the kingdom, while still holding on to the actual important lessons invoked, as we talked about by Helena in this episode, like, let's mind our histories, something, something, dragon's illusions of control, et cetera, we've talked about it.

Yada, yada, yada, Legos. She shouldn't lose sight of that part of it. That would be worrying. No baby with the bathwater. Exactly. And then Masari's like, I know what you need, baby. You're poised for victory. It's going to be kind of familiar language.

This is what Damon said. It was real, like, you know, empire and our children will rule of forever in a day. Don't worry. You're going to be queen. Your kids, they're going to rule. Do you think I'm worthy? In this moment, my queen, Renira. Familiar. I have never been. Familiar in a better way than the arm grab in the hallway. Yes. This is intimacy and proximity of a welcome form. And then they fuck, which kind of like, oh, sexually pushes her down on the chaise. I guess I thought we were going to get a little more in this seam. Then we got, oh, well. Oh, well. I was the Dragon Chaster show than Game of Thrones was, right?

I mean, no question. Yeah, no question. We got a lot of gold cloak dong earlier this season. Obviously, we had Bowls of the Pleasure Den. We've had some stuff. Sounds so. Let's head to Haran Hall. Why not?

Halicent, Amund, Alice, incest, dreams. It's all happening. Very weird for them to describe it as a love triangle in the inside the episode. Did you not think so? Allison is Amon's mother. Yeah. I wouldn't call it once again, perhaps a hinge. Yeah.

Yeah. Because there's no reciprocity from Allison to Aymond. So let's be clear. Only in his dreams. That's the first real, this is a dream and not reality clue, is that our boy Aymond slides right in. Mom was ready and waiting. Fantasy. Our listener Maria wrote in to say, not A.

been practicing with Blackfire like a Westrocy George Michael Bluth and his lightsaber. Incredible. Westrocy, George Michael Bluth is just elite. Great shit. Guys, stop us if you've heard this before, Targaryen Second Son, who is holdup at Haran Hall, is dreaming of fucking his mom. And the similarities are pretty detailed and specific. Carlos, can we see this clip? If only had been born first, my favorite son. forsake best, the truest son.

The city has fallen, A.land. You all I have loved. I really admire the series long Damon Damon comps, not only extending to Harren Hall mommy incest streams, but specifically to you're my best and favorite boy. Was that a fun clip to play right on the heels

me being like, this show isn't as horny as Game of Thrones? That's right. Well, we should say that like when when, you know, when, I mean, whatever, When Amon and Allison tumble into bed And then later it's Alice Yes It's still not the like

Like people keep their clothes on In this show It's not a It's not the same thing The Thrones was And I don't know For better for worse We get the subtler version here

You know Alice saying later You Targaryen boys All want the same thing Don't you? To fuck your mom Tell us all we need to know I was slightly disturbed In this episode

By how like tenderly I felt toward Amon Given what we were witnessing In this episode Just thought he was like Was it sweet? Was it his horror at finding out he wasn't fucking his mom? That's what did it.

Yeah, that's what did it. Can I please read this sentence you wrote into this work document? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, go for it. Amid is pulled out phrasing of this wherewood fantasy by Alice, draining that dragon jizz spout, proclaiming in this moment I will give you a son.

Uh-huh. And is that not what happened? Spot the lie as the king's about. Yeah, he was in the peak of his pleasure, you know. She wants the dragon seed. What can we say? We're just covering the show that they give us. I got a real, from in this moment, I will give you a son when we flip out of the dream into Alice on top there.

Real, like, Melisandra Stannis. Yeah, my question is. I will give you a son, my king. Is she going to make smoke babies? That's the thing. Is whatever's going to happen here, be of like the magical variables? If Alice makes a smoke baby, I'm going to lose my mind. It'll be very exciting. Smoky rolled. So that would be pretty fun. I know. And all that dragon's blood, it'd be great. All that king's blood is what I meant to say, but dragon's blood also... Well, one of the same, you know. Eamond shuffles off. He's very spooked. Because he's like, oh, no, I'm not fucking my mom.

Deathless bathing. It's a consenting woman I'm not related to. How weird. And then he, you know, stumbling through the hallways. And then there she is. Allison, wearing, as you noted. The exact same clothing. So what did you read on the magic that we're witnessing here? Right. Is this in Hall of Hall's glamour? Yeah.

I don't know. She, when he walks away from her, when he's like, ew, you're not my mom. She's like, what have you seen? She's like, what have you seen? And in a way that, like, I don't think she's lying. I thought we moved from uncertainty there into the certainty later of her saying she's trying to hurt you. Right. And so, but like, what have you seen?

tells me that that wasn't Alice wearing an Alice in glamour. That was... The wearwood paste and... Amin, like, his brain elsewhere. Alice having sex with him thinking he's present maybe and he's not. His brain is in a different plane having sex with his mom. Oops. And then she's just like, what did you see?

Right. That's what I think. Yeah. She's like, at least when Damon snapped too, he was having dinner, not fucking me. He was eating. He sure was. He sure was. But I think that...

So I think Amon ingesting Warewood ayahuasca or sleeping in the wherewood tree bed or whatever the case may be, Hirenhall is sending him some shit. But some of it is like, you know, he saw his mother arrive. Like the near term prophecy of that imminent arrival down to, you know, as we'll get to in a subsequent scene, like the mirroring of cupping his face saying you're all I have left,

which when that happens in the next sequence, he like shakes her off and it's so disturbed because it is beat for beat what he just witnessed. It was funny because I was like, oh no, when this is unfolding and I was watching this episode, I was like, oh no, how is Allison going to execute her assassination plan? There's no way he's going to trust her after he was spooked by this dream. But then he kind of, like, kind of did pretty easily. Well, he loves her and wants to fuck her.

And she's like, let me tell you that I made you your favorite childhood drink so that you feel my love and then I'm going to poison you very tough. It's not warm milk. Spiced wine. I know. He really regressed into the warm milk later in life. He, you know, on your, what is he receiving from the Heron Hall, the magic of Heron Hall front, he does give another donation of blood. Of blood. Red for blood. Yeah, Red for blood in the godswood right into the roots yet again. So Amon is making his deposits and being rewarded by his deposits.

So he uses the dagger of prophecy here. Our listener Allison wrote in about This is actually more about like what Orwell heard at the small council meeting And Sabbath Frey

and Torrin Manderly As Mallory noted Allison wrote What is more likely So the question we've been asking From the beginning Just a refresher Is how does the Song of Ice and Fire

The Prophecy of Agon Targaryen Make its way to Ragar Targaryen who is the key person to whom it is downloaded in the continuity of the Game of Thrones story. Is it past, like, because we've been, you know, because of certain things that happen along the Targaryen line, we're just like, did this go cleanly down the line? Right.

Was it lost somewhere and recovered? Certainly the dagger of prophecy was lost somewhere. Yeah. Along the way. And so Allison said, what is more likely, Ragar accidentally reading the cat's paw dagger after Gandalfing it out of the fire? Take it. It's quite cool.

Or finding someone like Frey or Mandurley's diary and reading about the crazy shit Damon said in a council meeting. We know they'll have a good gossip session and really who doesn't. After all, the quote is about Ragar, quote, he found something in his scrolls. Right. End quote. Which we've been assuming for four years means the dagger. Yes. But what if it actually was a scroll or record?

Now I know there's the Orwell of it all, but here's where we connect my crackpot theory to other crackpot theories. There's his grand maister conspiracy idea. I think it's fair to say outside of the spoiler section, this idea that, like, was it the maesters who sort of are ultimately responsible for there being no dragons by the time that DeNaris Targaryen is born? So we know there are no dragons by the time Duncan Agar there. No dragons. So that's not a spoiler. Just puppets. Just saying.

That's not a spoiler. There are no dragons. So there's this like crackpot theory that the maisters were somehow involved in that, the grand maister conspiracy sort of thing. Yep. Orwell is a maister. So if he's one of the maesters working to take down the tar. Targs, then of course he wouldn't record a prophecy about how essential the Targs are of the world, because if that info got out, then people would want to keep all those blondes

around. So, I don't know. Was Orwell not a source in fire and blood because of the Mesaer Conspiracy? That assumes that that's true, though. Right. Yeah. That the Mastair Conspiracy is true. Yeah.

Yeah. Which you don't buy into. I don't think the show should be putting a scene like that out into the world, assuming that everyone will receive it in a logical, coherent fashion because they all believe the Grand Master Dragon Death Conspiracy. And then what do you think about the idea that Rangar? What do you think about Ragar reading XOXO Gossip Girl, Tori Manderly's account of what happened in the small council meeting?

That is certainly fun to think about and the idea that somebody else jotted something down and then it made it to Ragar. I feel like based on what we have received in this show, the dagger is still the most likely scroll stand-in. But mostly because, like, the disconnect, and some of this is just the nature of gardening. I also just don't think there's enough information on the dagger to convey the fullness of the... There was a decent amount when they, when Vassaris and Reneera put it in the little...

Hold on. Brazier thing, however you pronounce that word and lit it. The, I don't know, I just, fire and blood, the Orwell thing aside, too many accounts, from too many sources make their way into fire and blood. From my blood comes the prince that was promised and with it the will of ice and fire. What the fuck does that mean if you don't have other information? The will of ice and fire? What does that mean? The will of ice and fire?

Yeah. From my blood comes the prince that was promised is like Raygar's line though. But what does that mean? Maybe he went and found some other facts. From Torin-Manderly. From a scroll. Yeah. I just don't see how if those scrolls exist, they don't make.

It's a sloppy scene. No one will convince me otherwise. I'm standing on my take here. Sorry. It doesn't make sense that Damon said that in front of that many people. It's nuts. It's not a logical thing

for the character to have done. And as you noted, it's not logical for nobody to ask a follow-up question. It just isn't. It doesn't make sense. Okay. You think it makes sense? I don't disagree.

I think it's interesting to think about. Sure. Sure. If Orwhile was working, for the Grandmaster conspiracy, and one day the show clarifies that for us. I'll happily recant the take. Happily.

When Eamon stabs Horwin weak, right through the chin. Gross. It's like, sorry, Mom. There's a lot of stuff going on here, and I can't have strangers know about it. Alice is obviously horrified. Allison's is obviously horrified. Their names are very similar, deliberately. And then Alice comes out, and she's like, let's have dinner.

And not since Edith's Cyril. And Dedra and Andor. Have I been so wrapped watching an awkward dinner as I was watching this scene? This was incredible. Alice is kind of testing Allison about the cover story of, oh, the road's dangerous. Maybe this also prizes us for a fraught road back from Allison. We mentioned on Talk to Thrones. But also, you're like if she's like, oh, it was just the two of us.

Right. Yeah. And there were other people in that sport at the end of the prior episode. So are they waiting? Are they hiding? Will she find them? They just down the road behind a tree. Maybe.

there are a lot of trees there, you know, and a lot of rubble. It's like when Olf and Hugh and Adam are hiding just around the corner at the gods eye with three dragons. Exactly. That's where the men are. Maybe. Maybe they're in exactly that spot. Yeah. Allison's like, tell me about your meat cute.

And Amon says, she saved my life. At whose behest, your lords? And Alice says, baller, I generally follow my own dictates incredible stuff. And Alice is like, what? I still don't understand who this woman is. Hmm. She is a little. lady and a maister of sorts.

Stark contrast, that description, Amon's of Alice, to what Damon said in the Heron Hall handwave sequence, right? The crown is not in the habit of giving out castles to midwives. And is midwife some of what you think I am, once again, getting what she needs out of Amon in a way that she didn't with Damon? Well, yeah, they weren't consummating their weird dynamic. Listen, here's a question I have. How much of Allison's like, I mean, she's frustrated and she's flustered and she's like, God, I got to pivot on this like assassination plan and what do I do and all of this. But like how much is her of her fluster comes from Alice saying, I do what I want. And Allison being like, never heard of it.

Never heard of it. Jealous. What are you talking about? Jealousy in both directions for different reasons is tantalizing, certainly, you know. And they're all, as always, like, completely destabilized by their dynamics because, Amon goes from this position of real confidence, kind of and fun in Harenhall, this House of Visions. He's almost like dispensing prophecies when he's talking about Reneera's baseballing riders and how she'll certainly fail. A new dawn is coming, a new line of unsullied kings.

But then he's got to throw a temper tantrum from a pout when Alice is like, we need wood, right? Cast this plate aside. So they're moving in and out of these different circumstances of kind of like behavior. But also, Amen. Yeah.

Hypocracy Corner. Let's come live here. Okay? Sure. The baseborn dragon riders, right? He's fucking a woman that he's not married to. So, like, even was like high on his horse about the strong boys, right? The bastards, right?

Yeah. Those sons are bastard, right? Like, he's, so, like, if Alice is pregnant and they're not married, that's a bastard, right? But he calls, yeah, but he calls her a lady, you know? Do they get married? Maybe. Who was their witness? The blind Butter Turner?

The Blind Butter Turner. What? is he not a targ tower? Does he not want to get married under the like, you know, the old, the religion? This is part of being under Alice's thrall is to see things differently. Well, this is what I'm saying. Like, so, so he's, he's bothering, he's siring bastards, awful woman of dubious parentage, you know what I mean? And so it's just sort of like, I'm for it. I'm, but I've never been the one running around being a targ as a premises. So, you know, He's benefiting from Heron Hall therapy, as you said.

Even like the way he, I mean, it's definitely weird when he says to his mother. Unsullied Kings. I mean, sure. Yeah. Unsullied Kings born off of this. Again, I love Alice. I love that she's a witch. I love everything about her. She should have children if she wants or not if she doesn't.

But like unsullied kings, what are you talking about? Even just the saying that we'll raise our throne here in the mud, like leaning in and embracing the muck of it all. The moment with Alicent when he was like, you takes her hand, you know, and you have something left to give still. I got real like if Egg on the Conqueror could have, yeah, two sister wives. Why can't I have my maister lady wife and my mommy wife? Like that was like you could give me a son vibes too. And then the fact that he, it was on the evolution of aim in front, that's a real contrast to the dismissal when he became regent.

When he cast her out of the council, it was like, you have nothing left to give. I really disagree because he's like, you have nothing politically here. And here he's like, your womb. I forgot your womb is still ripe. He did say in that scene you have go domestic pursuits. Because they have cast sons who are the same age as Olivia Cook. Very strange. Despite the distinction between the domestic and the political.

Because you're right, he's not embracing her mind here. No. It is still like a... He's not come be my hand of the king. No, no. But he is like, I need you. And in the regent, he was in such a pit of insecurity that he was like, anyone who knows me. Kristen, who knew me and saw what I did, gone, Haran Hall. My mother,

who knows me and knows my unique qualities cast out, right? Here's my other question. Do you think Allison, when she heard like this idea of Alice getting pregnant or whatever, she's like, she's like, do I have to kill her too? You know, because like if Helena's pregnancy is a threat to throne, it reminded me of one of my favorite lines and almost famous when Fruza Bulk, who gives real Alice energy, by the way. When she's, talking about the new band-aids, the new groupies, and she says they don't use birth control and they eat all the steak. I really feel like that's like, Alice is just like, can my son stop fucking women and putting inconvenient airs in them? I would appreciate it. I'm trying to

murder people. But she doesn't actually care about that out. That's Renira's outcome. She's just started to execute it so she can say, I did the thing you wanted. No, I know, but then Reneer and then let me be free. If Reneer catches wind from Jane Arras dogs or whoever that Alice is pregnant. I'm always barking. If Alice is pregnant with Amon's baby, she'll be like, another to your list? Alison, hi thee, hence to her and all, and kill someone else. What reason does Allison have to believe that any pledge from Runeer at this point will be honored? Well, then why is she trying to honor this one?

I agree. I didn't think it made sense that she sent her and that she went. None of that made sense to me in episode six. It was part of what didn't work for me about episode six. That said, as I said on Sunday, these scenes did really work for me. I think that when sometimes a story is, engineering an outcome in a way that doesn't make sense. That's, like, frustrating.

The scenes we got as a result. Like, clearly that decision was made so that Helena and Rainer could have their sequences without Allison's present. And so that we could get these Allison's, Amen and Alice moments, those scenes all worked and were all good. Does it feel completely right to me still that Renira made the choice to send Allison to do this and that Allison even trapped Helena held as hostage leverage as she was, went and actually tried to do it?

Like, no, not really. But the scenes worked. Well, you're, I guess I would slightly push back on your question of like, how could Allison believe that Reneer would keep any promise? I think she has to tell herself that there is some chance. In her desperation, she has to believe that there is some chance that if she does this, Renira will let them go. And I think that even...

She's using her logical brain. Of course not, but she's using her desperation back to the corner. Oops, we trapped ourselves in a tunnel and didn't get anywhere, brain, you know? Totally. And I think even to like the question I was posing earlier, like, why not maybe like give it a go with Amund here? There's the, you know, the Allison's own voice in my head from the sept scene in season two. Like, it's too late, Reneira. And to be pulled out of that, try to make a pledge together and then kind of fall back into it feels very human.

And certainly her window in the wall of her prison is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, not like burst wide open. Right. Whereas Alice is like, never been in a prison in my life, babe. Never heard of walls. Or has she been imprisoned in this human form the whole time? The little barn owl pet. The barn owl does show up. When Alice is like, I don't think the climate agrees with your mother.

Great stuff. I really felt that because they're, you know what? She's got those curls and they would probably frizz in Heron Hall where it's always raining. Send her back to all the town with her hair. So I feel like real, real, you know, girls' girl energy. Yeah, for sure. She's like, babe, you don't want to stay here. For sure.

Your hair is going to frizz out. Incredible stuff. Amen, we need wood. It was just so entertaining. It really was. It was great. The wood pile. My future did not include your mother.

I kind. That was an amazing scene because she's like, you know, my designs. Just again, much like the comps across character sets, like, I'm telling you the thing I'm doing. But it feels good and it's what you want in a way. So you'll let me do it, like the Masaria. Renera comp. I do enjoy that the woodpile is where Alice invoked Damon's mommy fucking dreams last season. It felt good to be back there.

She warns Damon to be cautious and he's like, enough of your nonsense. She's my blood, which is fascinating given what Amund has done to his blood. Like, why would that matter? As Alice says, why would it matter? But this is a guy who... Again, you have to believe. Like ate Luke and ate Luke and didn't want to regret it, but burned his brother. He's dying to believe.

that his mother thinks he's his, he's her number one boy. Yep. She comes in, she's like, spice, no hot milk, spice wine for you. Yep. And he like says, I'm really, and I'm really sorry about Agon. Like, I feel really bad about it. And so this is, once again, Haran Hall therapy. It works.

I felt this very sad. Both Aymond and Damon, you know, saying sorry, saying, please, saying, I feel bad about this. I've done all this shit and I feel bad about it. We're our characters on mirrored arcs. Have you noticed? Yes. But Eamon has been more repentant the whole time. It just hasn't helped.

Not the whole time. Just like. In and out of it. When mommy figures are around, then you might want to fuck. He's really ready to open up. Nettled and a bosom. Notting to bosom. I do you feel sorry about that.

Because this would Luke. Oh, ma'am. She was paying attention when Helena gave her botany lessons. That's right. She has poisoned the spice wine. So this is the payoff of the nightshade that we were curious about. I had no idea how that was going to be paid off. in the spoiler section we were wrong.

We had no idea this was coming. Gives him the spice wine. She does still look very meaningfully at the dagger, though. She's like, what the fuck does that cat spot dagger say? Oh, Viserra's always on our minds. From my blood comes a prince that was promised and his will be the song of ice and fire. What does that mean? And then he's like, mother.

By mother, I mean Alice. And he's like, help me again, once again, stumbling at her feet. Once again. The comedy of idiot. And she's like, you idiot. let me go to my... She's got it. Very unconcerned.

Very unconcern. My antidote table. But will he not be all the more bonded... She was right. Allison's leaving. He's going to be all the more putty in Alice's hands now. No question. Yeah.

This is how cult leaders work. They isolate you from your family. I mean, Alice would be wonderful. Oh. Sign me up, day one. Very powerful. Egg on. Baptism by fire. My goodness.

Just thought these scenes were good. great. Dynamite. So first the return to Rooks are asked, our boys are out on horses, and the road is blocked, Joe. A little comedy before this with the Volantine wine bit. I loved this. You know, if you're, if you mean to console me for this folly, Thailand's like, did. I've seen the monkeys. I've mud wrestled. I have fucked Admiral Wives. A little Valentin wine is not going to compel me to say this is a good idea, but EGON is steadfast. the masses start blocking the road with word that the mutants are coming. Initially, Agon's like, how could they have heard of me?

And then we realize, Thailand, Corliss's tip put into action. Though we never saw the handoff of the information. No. So this happened quickly. This is the payoff of that weird line where Coralus is like, BT-dubs. Yes. Thailand has been seen near Rooks for us. So Reneira sent some folks to go get Thailand to hopefully get the Mune.

That's right. Our boys come across Tom Tangle Tong, our guy, and he shares the Thailand and gold-specific detail. And then Laris is like, Thailand, here's what you should do. You should turn yourself over. Yeah. You should turn yourself over. And Thailand's like, she's going to flamey. And Laris is like, yeah, no doubt.

That was the best part. He didn't try to deny it. He's like, yeah. But it's the right thing to do. For your king. Just no shame from Laris, which is great stuff. And Agon's like, you guys are free to go. Do what you must.

But I am going to stay. I'm going to make my stand. I'm going to be buried as a guy. king with my dragon, I will not have the history say that I was slain in ignominy by my own brothers. So this is Agon's own little version of They Will Sing Songs About It, right? Yeah. Thailand stays. Laris departs. Where are you on your boy, Lyrus right now?

I mean, his survival instincts are just top notch. Agon's a piece of shit, so why would I try to get myself murdered for Agon? There's no reason to. It reminded, so when he says, like, it will be my duty to see that the King Agon is remembered. His heroic last hour is immortalized through story and song, Your Grace, this line that you keep quoting, which is amazing. It's just so funny. It reminded me of this line from one of my favorite musicals into the woods when there's a giant stomping around in the forest and Cinderola stepmother is like running away. And the other characters are like, what the fuck are you doing?

And Cinearola stepmother says, some people are cut out to battle giants and others are not. I don't have the Constitution. And as long as I can be of no help, I'm going to hide. Everything will work out fine in the end. It was like classic Laris. There's just like, some people are built for this. I am not. And as long as I can't help, I'm going to hide.

Bye. Incredible. Very on brand. Also, like, appealing to Egon, what Egon actually voiced to him a little bit in season two during their bonding sequences, this like, oh, the regon, the realms delight. Like, the desire for to be remembered fun. Larry's knows that that's important to agam. And so the spin job of positioning it that way,

I'm abandoning you. But in order to ensure the outcome that you want... They'll sing songs about you. Don't worry. A masterclass, honestly. Yeah. Great stuff. Very amusing when Thailand's sell swords are like, we're out.

He's kind of right off. They don't even say bye. No big speeches from them. I'm just actually quite surprised that Thailand stuck around. Yeah. It was fascinating. Like, it's a really interesting thing for him to do. It is.

We've always been team Thailand. and Lanister here on this podcast, literally never. Not until we were like, he looks pretty hot, taking a grave. That was the first time. It happened quickly. Life comes out of you fast. I was like, that guy's definitely dead.

And now I'm like, huh, interesting. We're all fiber. It is fun that, you know, the choice that I got made last week to side with Laris to go to Esos, we were really processing that as intended is Thailand failed the test, right?

That Laris passed of like, I'll tell you the truth. But now, but. So immediately. for then Thailand to be like, I'm the one who will stand with you was surprising. Sunfire. We'll bonfire for two.

Egg on, Thailand, hanging out. Campfire. It looked lovely, honestly, and then the mootins arrived. And we have been, I think it is fair to say, impatiently waiting. Frustrating. Talking pot after pot in the spoiler section

since post-Rook's rest. So middle of season two. It's not a storytelling issue. We just didn't know how to talk about it. dragon that we definitely knew was still alive and the show was like. And genuinely, they're like, how long is this going to remain in mystery? And the answer was a season and a half. I mean, Chris earlier was like, there's no way Sunfire is still alive what you guys talking about.

Like, we did a spoil it for him, but we were like being cagey about it. And he's like, no, that Dragon's dead. It's been so long. Knapping. We did get an email from Jonathan who said, first of all, Sunfire ate those carnies was a subject line. Great. Sunfire was Dragon Napping or maybe brumating like real-world reptiles, which is a word I

learned. New to me. But reptiles, I guess, will sort of like, that's their version of hibernating. When he woke up, he had to be hungry, so he roasted those carnies who were selling dragon rides for a coin. I hope he ate those guys. Burned him and ate him. I hope he crisped him up. But yeah, Sunfire was just sort of like chilling, woken up by True Love's Kiss, by

Agon murmuring to him, perhaps. Egan, you know, he knew. He felt it. My boy, I'm here, right? He's alive. Was it the Janus' blood on the scale that sort of woke him up? you know. Agon's Kingley stand here? I won't cower and run and hide. Van was telling me earlier that Kalika cried, which I love this story, that Kalika cried when Sunfire showed up. Like that at first it was like, is it Vagar? Is it like what's happening here? You know, it could have been Vagar.

Yeah, sure. Like if people were watching, they're like, oh my God, vagar, who's been missing, long in the missing, has shown up to like help Agon or something like that. No, it is. Or burn him. The golden boy himself. Sweet Sunfire. Our twins now with their twin burns and injuries. The way that Agon before he hears Sunfire, and he heard him less quickly than everyone else. He was very much committed to his feet.

One of his ears is melted. That's true. That's true. He has a whole great, you know, we talked about on Talk to Thrones, this kind of second coronation, the mirroring images of the arms, why, but even the way he's describing himself,

titling and styling himself, right? It was also making me think of DeNaris arms through wide with three baby dragons, the first Jacarist. Absolutely. The thing he says at the end of this declaration is the through line of this episode. Obviously, in many ways, also the series

because it dates back to Allison and Rainer in the eye for an eye scene. Now they see you as you truly are. For now you see me as I truly am. Dreadful in vengeance, righteous, and glorious. Similar language will be a, invoked in the Ormond Ulf conversation at the end of the episode. So this is very much an episode for like, what is the true version of me? What do I do with that? How do people receive it?

The two golden princes, but it's just so funny. Now melted. I know, but it's so funny to watch this scene because, you know, in George fashion, in whatever fashion, it's such a demented, twisted version of this because, like, you know, the Mad King Aries vibes coming off of him in this sequence, which we'll watch in a second is undeniable. But it's just sort of like, if people are following Agonne on the road, and Condal said this in behind the scene, like people will be surprised by how much they're rooting for Aigon here. And we've talked about this.

We're like, character on an arc, growth, stuff like that. Chris, I'm talking about. She's like, I'm in. I'm not. I have not forgotten what Aigon has done, absolutely. But it's just sort of like, oh, like, and then he just like murders a bunch of people. Do you know what he mean?

So, so. Yeah. this great power that the Dragon House has been given, this unbeatable weapon. We got a great email from a listener who was comparing sort of like Kristen Cole's last stand to Aegon's last stand and what's like all the comments between them, the fact that they were like both scarred at Rook's Rest

in their own way, both had to sort of like travel incognito without, you know, the power and support they were used to having and both took this sort of like absolutely demented, fine, I'll go out and sort of a blaze of glory stand. But Agon has this dragon weapon, but he is not worthy of a WMD. I thought this sequence was thrilling to watch, but ultimately, like, terrifying. I don't think we disagree. I'm just saying, like, it's so interesting that he's rewarded in this moment with this, like, so dragons, and this has just been true across the board, but, like, you know, these absolute assholes have dragons.

It's very dangerous. Vassaris was right. Team Vassaros. Ormond was right, too. I said it. Yeah, I mean, the Ormond is, it's interesting because the way that he is positioning the conversation with Ulf is like weaponizing that idea of like who you truly are, right? He's using it to work this guy and say, oh, the tools. You know, we talked about the tool idea earlier with Reneer and Bela and her dragon riders.

I'm like, Ormond's using everybody as a tool. He's using trying to use Ulf as a tool too. He's just more tactful about it. Do you know what's great about his piece on the board? It's a dragon. It sure. It sure is. The dragon math, like you said earlier, has.

There's some updates here with Sunfire emerging. Just thinking about Darren and Orman playing their game of us. That's right. And just sort of like, he's like, my piece of the board? The only thing he respects about the Targaryens is the strength. So if he can use it, he will to beat them. That's his plan. The, I thought with the instantaneous, like the way that Egon thinks, oh, they're, they're scared of me.

They're cowering from me. And then he realizes it's sunfire. And that there's no beat or pause. instant. Sunfire, Sunfire, Dracarus. And then the kind of maniacal euphoric, cackling glee, which we'll watch in a second. You said Mad King Arias, like I was, this is such, I think really, I've enjoyed Egon's arc, but this was like not just a, oh, I have a path forward and I'll use my power. It was such a like, oh, whatever kind of moral progress we think we're watching, we have backslet into the, I want to say this is who I truly am and what I think I

am. This is dreadful in vengeance is what we saw. It's just disturbing. The old, no, they'll burn. They'll burn with the little, the little, the smile. Smile. Carlos, can we see Egon very chill,

calm, normal reaction to burning the mutin army? I mean, it was an exciting television scene. I'm concerned. Yeah, their matching faces is really, really good. Oh, that was great. Sweet Sunfire, welcome back, buddy. I really liked the, I don't know if that was supposed to be a particular mutant or just ahead of the, I thought that guy. Yeah, I was like, that guy was like pretty great.

Tomlin Carney talking about how he lost his voice and vomited after doing this scene. Wild. He's fantastic. He's amazing. Also, like, oh, he only has eight takes in him. Yeah. You know, a little nugget in the House of the Dragonsville because he's like, this is going to require a lot. He's like in advance. Yeah. I can't do this that many times. This is amazing. You know, we've talked about on the book tweak front that sunfire in the book, we know he's alive. The garrison, like, bringing him food, and then he does roast the mutants, that part's canon.

But the tweak of like, and so then he's gone and it's known that he's gone. Yeah, it's a mystery, though. Like, it's clear that he's, like, flown away because there's no footprints. But where and with whom and out. But we don't know where sunfire has gone. Right. We in the show know that Sunfires with Agon. That's right.

And I was asking on Talk to Thrones, like, do we think any member of that army escaped the Blaze? In the trailer that they showed for the finale, characters are just like, Agon's return. So I guess that's known, which is different. I mean, Sunfires escape would be known no matter what, obviously. Dead Dragon, then he's gone. But like, oops, Rainira, you lied about Agon being dead. Good job.

Interesting stuff. Tumbi. Tumble. We've hit a lot of this already. ready. You know, Gawain does provide the helpful update that the winter wolves are 20,000 strong and days march out. Really devastating to see Kristen Cole's fake head still wearing the Gwain High Tower matching boyfriend mud makeup, you know? The stripes. Yeah. Tough. Tough one for old Chrissy there. I thought it was very sad to see Gawain learn about Kristen's death. Ormond could not have given less of a shit. And probably— Darren was very nice about it. Darren was incredibly kind about it. Offered his sympathy.

which was very touching. Darren and Gawain, wonderful characters, wonderful pairing. Ormond says at the beginning of this episode, I have a piece on the board. Bring the bitch to her knees. And Gawain and Darren are trying to puzzle out what this means and who it's about. Corlis. They don't know about Ulf. This is a secret. It's a reveal at the end of the episode, they don't have this information. The comments, like at the dinner sequence with Corlis, very interesting to watch Darren, pushback on the... How's that going to help us, though? Yeah, Ormond's like,

okay, your queen doesn't give enough of a shit for me to use you as a hostage to work her. But the Valorian men, maybe I'll keep them out of Kings Landing. We hear very quickly elsewhere in the episode, Alan gives the count that the Valarians are a day out of Kings Landing. So the idea of keeping that reinforcement at bay, okay, Darren's saying, how is that going to help with the winter wolves at our gate?

And then Gawain voicing something very similar later when he and Darren are debriefing. There's this interesting aspect of, like, is this hubris on Ormond's part to be thinking that far ahead, taking for granted that he has the Tumbledon Edge? Or is this why he is actually a step ahead because he is able to think in beyond just the one thing in front of him that feels most urgent to everybody else? Like, I mean, it's kind of interesting. He's working both, right? Because he's like using Coralus to continue to chip away and under, which is tremendously effective. His campaign in Kings Landing, tremendous.

tremendously effective. So continuing that undermining from inside of King's Landing while also wooing off on the on the ridge. It is sort of like, he's operating, he's continuing the King's Landing. Goene and Darren are like, we have no hope. Like we're dead. It's a wrap. So Ormond is like assuming victory by continuing to plan outside of Tumbledin.

Given how much we talk about Targary and hubris, that feels interesting. But again, it's like. But also like, why would you stop? Right. Yeah. So I had like kind of admire the... If you were like, I have a chance because I have Silver Wing and she's a goer. She's a goer.

She's a goer. Come on, gal. Corliss covering the wine cup, make you think of Rousse, our guy, Ruse Bolton. But also corlis at the beginning of the series when he's in a small counsel. Yeah. Don't poison me here, Ormond, but also like head clear. Yeah. Head clear.

What does you make of not only Orman's comments on his diet, you know, vegetable kingdom, slicing a pear, real Anakin Skywalker stuff with the pear. I bet Ormond also hates sand, by the way. But his pitch here to Corlis, which is an interesting mix of why

limit yourself in tedious alliance to the brutish and the incurious. You know, in general, his pitch is framed perhaps effectively to a legacy-obsessed character like Corlis, albeit, as we've talked about a lot on an arc who has made a lot of progress in that respect, and certainly a character

has had his issues with Rainira. But having like the record scratch real-time moment where Ormond has to be like, right, yeah, oh, yeah, your wife. And it's like, okay, yeah, your kids, your grandkids, they're Dragon Rider's. House Valerian is from Valeria. Like, the Valerians have a lot in common with the High Towers in terms of their, like, financial might and achievement. The second son's speech from Corliss to Damon, there's like a lot of connective tissue

there. Corliss's problems with Ranira are not the same as House Valerian rejecting the Targaryen supremacy. But I think Ormond is sort of trying to float the idea like maybe you should. Yeah. What do you think does it feel like an effective pitch? I don't know. Corliss is a bit of a brick wall across the board here. I would like to go back to this sort of quasi-vegetarian stance from Mormon. Sure. On our ongoing question of whether or not Ormond has ever been in the position to produce heirs, I would like to present with you this evidence. I do wonder how something so slippery and substance can truly be benign. Do we think Ormond has ever encountered a woman, no, undressed? I do not. Is that funny at all to you?

I did quite. That's the joke I wrote down four times. I like, I enjoyed it. I told Molly before I was like, I took notes four times. I watched the episode four times. And each time I was like, is that what this is about? Slippery. Oh, cut in cheap a D.

And Mallory's like, what if I don't think it's funny? I loved it. I always like a vagina joke. You know that. Come on. No, your audience, and you do. It was always going to work on me. I loved it.

That's why I wrote it down four times. Oh, my God. Great stuff. Great stuff. Finger slice makes its way to Alan. Lovely little box that that finger came in. Beautiful. I mean, it's always a finger in the box, I got to say.

Great signet ring. Darren and Gawain contemplating the future. This was a great scene. I like the way they're shot. I talked a lot about the way in which this show uses architecture to either cage people in or sort of make them look free. Alice has been a real, um, Alicent has been a real sort of example of this. The way they're shot, you know, there's just like a bunch of intricately carved wooden screens all around them. They look so hemmed in here. Yeah. But also like the,

the, the way that when Darren shouts, calls Ormond a madman and Gwen's like, shh, it's like there's, it's not a solid soundproof room. You're always on display too. That's a kind of, these came from costless world market. They're not soundproof. Maybe pure one important. Incredible stuff. I quite liked what we saw from Darren here in terms of our goodest boy. Our goodest boy.

And emboldened Darren, his relationship to the idea of being Darren, Darren, Darren, Darren, Darren. Being king is something he's thinking about it in a new way here. Not, no, he's just using me or no, I can never be. It's what kind of king would I be if I, because Gawain's like you could fly on Tessarian. You could survive this. It's like, what kind of king would I be if I did that if I love my men? I have no fear of insignificance, Gawain. Reneera may keep her crown for all I care and Gawain smiles.

Like, first of all, I think this is a moment. We've talked a lot about the tragedy of Allison thinking Darren had a better life and then seeing what he was subjected to with Ormond. But this actually is a little bit of a maybe being away from the rag keep was good and helped him. Oh, head on shoulders. Yeah. And also just like Gawain and Darren as two truly rare characters who maybe like don't want endless war and bloodshed and aren't just saying that but actually mean it. And versus Ormond versus, of course, Amid and Agon who both in this episode are like, you know, you shall have a queen more terrible and whatever as the dawn. And then Reneer as well, you know.

So funny. So, like, the, I'm not, I don't fear insignificance versus all the comments about, like, being lost in the dust. Yeah. And just sort of like, Darren's like, okay, so what? And what does power do to you? What does your dragon do you? Even Masaria, do you want to be near the throne? Your silks.

Like, Darren's like, I just like, what if we, what if I don't want? I want to eat cake. Run your head, right? From the jump. Yeah. From the jump. The all reveal. Okay, I love to this.

Take me through it. Okay. Incredible. First of all, and I talked about some Talk to Thrones, but like the portable, you know, incense. So good. Burners. Incredible shit. It's also such a dunk on Ulf because, like, they're out in the open air and Norman's like, this guy probably still smells like shit. Absolutely. And also he hates the smell of dragons. Silver wings right by there. She's a lady, but she's still a dragon. You know, I do think it's interesting to have seen all of the dragon technical stuff that they did in this episode. I did get a real flat

When Raleigh Earlem, who's the sort of I don't know, stunt supervisor, is that his role? When he started talking about burning people, I was like, oh my God, I had a flashback to watching the behind the scenes from Field of Fire. Then they literally showed the footage of it. But I was literally sitting there like 10 years of my life watching this guy talk about burning people. Here we are again. He's like, here we are again.

All this stuff is cool. But there's, I'm missing some of the, like, like really fun, intricate projection design behind the scenes that we've gotten in previous seasons. And I would just really like to learn. I mean, we got the Savasbord. We've gotten some of it. I just want to know all about Orman's, uh, portable incense burners. Okay.

Um, I love this. It's a camera reveal, too. It's not just a plot reveal, but a camera reveal. So that's a great direction. And then I just want to like, there's more, we talked about something on Talk of Thrones, but there's multiple references inside of this conversation of like last time we talked. So this has been. an ongoing seduction.

How long? How many conversations? It helps explain, you know, we got a lot of people asking, like, how is Gawain able to sort of like go in? Like, how are people able to go in and out? How is bold John Rocks and able to get Corley's in there? Well, if they did it while Ulf was on shift, then, like, you know, they could come and go as they please.

Right. But I think what's really fun is to go back to the previous episode and reframe the conversation that Ulf is having with Hugh when Hugh comes to relieve him, right? Ulf says, yeah. But we're not the same. Are we? So what he says here when he's talking to Hugh really feels like he's regurgitating talking points from that Orman has been feeding him, right? So he says, we're not the same, are we? We weren't in service back then at the beck and call of the queen sleeping on a hill. And then he goes,

sleeping on a hill, ellipsies, alone. Alone. That's definitely alone. There wasn't anyone here. She stopped me from going to the tavern, Hugh. Not one ale with the lads. With the point in having a dragon if no one's around to see it. Okay. So like, I'm all alone. I've been here alone. Don't worry about it. And then Hugh says, well, would you go back to where you were scrabbling in the dust? And Elf goes, no, because he already knows that that's not the only alternative. And he goes, hmm. And then Alfe says, though I can't say my life has been approved, can you? So like, how much is Ormond been saying, hey, can you, you can recruit your other guy? Right. There's more in it for you if you can get Hugh in on this as well, right? Though I can't say my life has been improved. Can you? Right then. See you in two days,

sir Hugh. Come on, Gail. So, like, this idea that, like, Orman has been giving Hugh talking points. Yeah. Sorry, Orman is giving Ulf talking points. Yeah. Oll has been just, like, pretending that he's on boring Tumbledton watching duty when we don't know how long he's been sort of convinced he's getting Honeyholt, merely a trifle. Another insult to House Beesbury. Unbelievable. He offers him drift mark.

Yeah. We got this great email. Lord of the Tides. We got a great email from a listener, Michael. And first of all, like, of course, Orman does not want Ulf at Honeyhold that's way too close. That's in the reach. He doesn't want him there. Yeah, of course.

Here's what Michael says. What we know about Ulf is he's had it hard and that he'd ideally like it easy from here on out. Orman probably had his allegiance just for bringing good ale. In Honeyhold, he'd be able to guzzle down the finest wines in the reach and probably make the best meat on the planet thanks to all the bees. The weather would be lovely. He'd never want for anything. He'd be far away from any King's Landing drama, just fly out. I run on his dragon, see how many children legitimate and illegitimate he can make.

Live it easy, love and free. Season ticket on a one-way ride. Askin' nothing, leave him be. Taking everything in his drive. Meanwhile, on Drift Mark, he'd be experiencing a permanent shiver from the cold, wet climate. He'd probably die from the flu in short order. He'd have to care about boats and shipping lanes and balance sheets and fighting a whole bunch of wars. Crows got rich because he was great of that stuff.

Oof isn't. He wants none of that. Wine, women, and coin would suit him just fine. Oof wants a retirement plan. Some more sunny and warm. And Orman's offering him a high strife. job somewhere frigid and damp. And it's a rebuild.

A lot of fire damage from the Triarchy attack. Absolutely not. Classic. Honeyhold all the way. This just shows you that all flawless driver, not a ball nowhere. That's just true. No, he's like, ooh, a title. Yeah, exactly. I can't live in a title, but I can live in a castle. This scene

was great and such a satisfying payoff for kind of all of the component parts, all the characters. Everything that Damon and Renier have done all season that we've been like, are you giving your people what they need and what they want? I don't think we've been too subtle about like we knew this turn was coming from Ulf so like but I mean this exact scene is like this is a this is a surprising way to get it this is a different no no this is a different way to get it but I feel like we've just been very much like huh I wouldn't treat

Ulf that way if I were you yeah because we know that Ulf I think his teams you know like we talked about on Sunday the fact that Ormond got to witness Damon mocking the castle longing specifically and then all of these other things along the way, right? Yeah, you know that. The name, the belly, the lads, the pub. The way that all, thinking about something now, like his exchange with Renera and the graffiti sequence, like, unkind, you know, that their queen has been unkind when presented with this.

Performative, false, utilitarian kindness, but kindness from Ormond. And, you know, on the, not just, like, PR front, but saviness front. Like, we heard Orman last episode, last episode say, the common man is as a rule of no interest or concern, but you must never. trust one who's clawed his way to power, whose ambition is off-fueled by some lacksome shame or lust or rage. Now, of course, that's colored by what we know he's been doing with Ulf after this episode. But also, it's like, no surprise. One more insight into Ormond's elitist views, right? He has no interest in fraternizing with a commoner like Ulf. No. But he's

able to suck it up and do it. Hold his nose incense and pommender aided in other ways. And not only that, but to use the specific, like he's not just working Ulf and recruiting him and giving him, he's doing it by saying to him, Ludacris, a man needs his sustenance and cheer. The exact language that Ulf used to say, this is what I want. Why won't you just give it to me? In the very same episode where Ranira, in potentially getting Raina and sheepstealer on her team, just sort of like completely fucks that up, here's Orman being

like, how can I add dragons to my side? I understand who you really are. They will laugh at you no more when they see who you are. No, they will burn. Dragon Math update. Yeah. All right. Take us through Team Green.

Vagar. Somewhere in the Riverlands. Not with Aman. Not with Aman. Yeah. But regionally proximate. Sunfire. Back.

Alive. Back, baby. In the Crownlands, back with Agon. Dreamfire. Beautiful in Kings Landing. Helena's not flying. So still not on the board, I would say. Right.

And then Tasari. in Tumbledton with Darren Chait. So the numbers are up, but they're fractured still. They're not in the same place. Amid and Agon still are not on the same side. But this is way up from where we've been. Sunfire being back is huge. Yeah.

Huge. Team Black. Caraxi's with Damon. Yep. Seemed okay after the skirmish. Vermithor with Hugh, bouncing between Kings Landing and Tumbledon. Syrac's back in Kings Landing healing from injuries suffered in this episode.

Seasmoke in Kings Landing. with Adam, out on patrol, tiny bit injured, but not as badly as Syrac. Moon Dancer, same thing in King's Landing, or out on patrol with Bela. And then Tyraxies is Joph's Dragon is in the mix, but too small to fight. Not a factor right now. Watch this space, Silver Wing and Ulf. I would put it on Team Green, but I support your optimism. You know, it is.

Seems like Orman's done a very effective job of recruiting him. Undeclared. Sheepstealer, healing, and separated. from Z right away. Not able to fly. Not able to fly. Injured badly. Cannibal and Grey Ghost,

Dragonstone, Wild Dragons, not claimed, not relevant, but flying around out there. And then dead. ARAX, Maly's, Vermax. StormCloud, haven't heard of peep in it. Aerox.

Aerox. All Team Black. Dead. Team Black. Not recruiting sheepsealer in this episode. Team Black, I would say, losing Silver Wing in this episode.

And Team Green, gaining Silver Wing and Sunfire in this episode. So in terms of like the balance and then the major injury done, sure. So in terms of like we started the season with Team Black way in the lead. And in this episode, the scale's completely tipped. It's a real mismanagement of resources.

I would say. Book spoilers. Let's do it. Book spoilers. Can I want to hear this leave? Can I hit something from last week? Let's do it. We should mention that in the book, reportedly after the death of Amen.

Alice has a dragon and Heron Hall. Like, it's-wisbers. Whispers, spotted, claims of a dragon in Heron Hall. So like... Smoke monster? No, I'm just saying, like, the dragon eggs. But then what? I don't know.

A dragon lost a history from there? Maybe. Dyes? Maybe. Maybe goes to Yiti. Who knows? That would be fun. That would be fun.

Maybe her son with Amon is hatched a dragon in the cradle. reared it and is going to go off to Yiti or something. I don't know. Or maybe it's just a whisper and it's not true. Well, yes. But I'm just saying the fact that she had a dragon, everyone was like, what do you mean she has a dragon? Where did it come from? And the show is like, hey, there's a clutch of eggs at her in all.

Dreamy. Dreamy! Something I think about. Helena. Feels like we're going to be saying goodbye in the finale. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it feels based on Olivia Cook saying close the windows and like the idea that Helena dies, perhaps while Allison is gone

and there's no way that Allison won't blame Rainira for that, even if Reneer, even if no one does anything except you know, Helena takes a step out the window. Yeah. But also like Helena dies when Aman and Damon there is a version of this where she could

live until the next season. I don't think it's going to happen but I'm just saying she could. She could. Yeah, she could. I mean, I've enjoyed my time with her so that would be nice. I'm not ready to say goodbye. Are you reading the Dracarus storming of the pit Dreamfire sequence most of all? Are you reading like I won't partake in that?

And so I will remove myself from the situation entirely as part of what is happening here. I thought it was interesting. We got an email from my listener, Emily, who says this idea that it's sort of death no matter what path is chosen. is sort of like what Helena is seeing here, an idea. Right. Dream 1 and foreshadows Helena's death. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the exact area where she lands after jumping or falling. So like that courtyard with the pale horse, if that is where.

Right. And that's an exit of sorts, a freedom of sorts. She's no longer confined. Horrible. Dream 2 represents the fate of her unboard child. Mailor, if you believe that. The baby is immediately taken away, doomed from its very first breath. Dream 3, it foreshadows the death of the dragons with the small folk storming the dragon pit and killing them.

And Dream 4, it shows the coming of winter and what comes with it, the long night and the eventual fate of Westeros. The white horse there makes me think it represents Helena and her twins. More importantly, it tells her that these events will take place long after her own death and after the fall of Targary and her family. Time is running short for Helena, but at least she seemed to find some peace in the afterlife. But death, death, death, all down the board here. And I do like this interpretation that some people are floating, this idea that, like, Like, what Helena foresees is that if she, let's say she runs away with Jahera and Maylor, if that's what you believe is in the vision or Jaheras, if it's, whatever. If she gets to be on a chicken farm with her babies, does that mean that Westrose loses the long night, the battle with, you know, the Night King?

Is that, is that something she's seeing? Right. Right. Or even the idea that those are, you know, Egon's heirs. And so it's like in some camps positioning of the war, they're the ones responsible for turning around and challenging and protecting the realm from that fight. I thought that the, you know, gray mare, like the pale horse, there's the Danny comp with the pale mare and the pale mare and the bloody flux and the plague. Like part of what's coming in the story is a literal winter. A literal winter. And also the. the plague, the winter fever. So like, there's the near-term death not only of the dragon war, but of the sickness and just the decimation across Westeros and the immediate horizon. And Palehorse, Pillrider, being this idea of death that, you know, they already used in Game of Thrones, Zaharia, etc. They did. That was a pretty shot in a baffling, baffling episode.

I like that we got to see Dreamfire before the storming at the pit so that we had some visual recognition given. how tragic Dreamfire's death in particular is in that sequence. I had been debating with Jomey whether or not we would see Dreamfire and Jomey was like, we have to because of the storming of the dragon pit. But I was just like, I don't, you know, I don't know like how they're going to do the storming of the dragon pit in terms of like are the dragons that are the main characters of that. Right.

Going to be the actual dragons that are the main characters of that. But this Dreamfire design is so distinctive and cool. Right. That if they even show her to us like two more times. Yeah. And then the storming of the dragon pit happens. Yeah. Because there is a difference just in terms of like Dehara and Jeharis as dragons being eggs in the show versus hatchlings and stuff like that.

So they really kind of need us to care about Dreamfire. It's obviously horrific no matter what. And the proximity of everything with Syracs. Are there other dragons that we could care? I don't know. I don't know. It did feel like a promise that we're getting the storming of the pit though. Not that there was ever any doubt, but this was a real like, we're doing it.

Get ready. Buckle up. Where are you on Sylvia's the Shepherd? Up after this episode? Yeah. Stock climbing. Yeah. Or at least like involved in that movement. Definitely, right? It feels, I can't remember which episode we got a bad baby. No, we were talking about another theory and you threw out Sylvie. I can't remember, honestly. It's when people were out in real time and now it's like Kristen, Orman, Allison, and yes, someone. I was very much like it's like a small folk.

Remember the small folk. And then I think you said Sylvie. I was like, hell yeah. Anyway, this seems right. I feel like this seems right. We don't have a lot of time for new candidates. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, it could be a new person that is introduced in next season. And using Sylvie as like a lieutenant. Yeah. Does it matter? I mean, does it matter if the person is a male? Does it matter if the person is missing a hand, you know?

It's funny. So I was like given the tension that immediately surfaced between Sylvie and Missaria. Is Missour? They're around all the, they had just drawn attention to the blades of the throne, the Cox comment. I was like, she's going to take her hand right now. Is she going to take her hand? And then it would have been confirmed. So that would have been fun.

On the winter front from world of ice and fire A terrible hard winter First declared by the conclave in Old Town And 1 30 AC on Maiden's Day Had taken firm grip on the realm And would last for six cruel years So this is gonna be bad It's gonna be a bad one

I'm excited for snowy season six Or four, whatever the fuck of the season we're on Okay, so Sunfire and Egg On I guess the Dragonstone Waiting at Dragonstone Park can still be a secret and a twist Mm-hmm If he flies off in the finale Yeah.

On Sunfire's back. Yeah. And then he's like missing for a few episodes. And then she rolls up to Dragonstone. And he's like, surprise, motherfucker. I just don't know what Laris is up to. I guess back going back to King's Landing. I guess.

But. And he's like, remember how I gave you Otto? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And it's also like, we did get Nima. He didn't sing songs about. Nope.

Hang on because nobody knew he was at Rooksress. So that's funny. We did get an email from a listener, Mickey, who said, is Coe was being set up as the big team black betrayal of Dragonstone at Renair's big moment? That's interesting. I thought that was interesting. And I was wondering if Corl is being captured makes Renier suspect him. Yeah.

Like he's there at Tumbledin. And he could say, they captured me, but she's suspicious of anything. Well, that would be great because the paranoia, especially if that's entwined with Adam. That feels really right. I don't like. Why is he there? Yeah. There has to be a reason.

I don't know that like bringing back Alfred Broom or Keltigar to do the Dragonstone thing has nearly the effect of someone If Kourless were attached to it. So that's an interesting idea. Yeah. And Kourliss seemed to take note of Darren. You know what I mean? He clocked that exchange with interest and we lingered on his face. Yeah.

No. For sure. Yeah. So if he's like Team Green, they have some points. Yeah. And one of them is not a total mania. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I mean, obviously Corliss is shifting, you know, relationship to Team Black is like a big part of the story to come. So the fact that the show is clearly going to do it a little bit differently, but maybe not completely differently. That's interesting. On the tapestry front, so Helena, one of the things that she says to Amon is she's not just talking about Amon's future. She brings up Agon's Wooden Throne. To me, now does she see clearly enough to stitch onto the tapestry, Renera's fate in a way Renera could pick up and see? I don't know. But she at least saw a post-Dragonstone showdown, Egon. Does that mean she stitched Sunfire? eating Reneira onto the tapestry?

I mean, that's presuming that what she's stitching is actually the, yeah, possibly. And you think Reneer is going to find it and be like, what's all this then? I don't know, maybe. What was on her needlepoint this week? It seemed like. I could not tell, I got to be honest. It seemed like burning towers. So I would say maybe Tumbledon.

Tumbie. Yeah. Good old Tumbie. Damon and Raina. Wait, actually, let's go back to Tumbi for a sec. Ulf and Hugh Is Hugh Are we going to see

Is he going to swing him pre? It seems from the trailer Like a very big battles There some things are different Like Damon obviously from the trailer For the season but also this episode He's there He's on horseback sometimes

But Karexies is there That's different Is Tessarian going to come out and fight When does Hugh turn Is that because of cat on the ground Or all for growth? I mean cat on the ground has to be A part of it

Has to be But I don't know that I fully understand. I don't see the vision exactly yet of how Hugh is going to turn. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think that Ulf has been working on him on behalf of Ormond. Yeah. Certainly incepting him.

Yeah. Okay. Damon and Raina. Are they going to go on for Baker together? I like this idea. Like pre-God's eye still? Is this a version of this going to happen? Interesting the mutants.

Like, I don't know if we're going to get the, they go hang out at the mutants. and then there's like a kill. Maybe they'll go back. I mean, I would like to retract my critique of building of Jane Aaron's hall because they've been using that set. So if they make it still the veil for some reason, you know what I mean? We could just keep using, I mean, Jane Aaron's great. The dogs are great. Just Marford's great.

That set is great. So if they're just at the veil instead, like that could be, you know, and Jane Aaron's like, I guess I'll still hide you. I don't know why she would have her mind change. When do you think God's eye is going to be? Near the end of season. Really? Like six maybe at the earliest, I would say. You think it's going to be earlier?

Yeah. As painful as it'll be to say goodbye to Matt Smith. Think about how long they held on to Chris and Cole this season. I know, but they have so much to do. They have so, even if we're obviously getting first Tumbledon, even if we also get Helena, I mean, we have. So God's Eye is where Amen and Damon die, right? Or does Damon die?

Question. If only one character gets to survive... It should be Damon. It should be Darren. If one character who's supposed to die survives... Yeah. That would be great. It's darling Darren.

Well, I mean, it's entirely plausible, given the counts. With his red hair, okay? Yeah. So, like, he's got to make it. So I will lose fucking Damon Targaryen if it means Darren can survive. Wow. I listened to Greg wrote in to say, I noticed small detail in season 3 episode 7

that counts as a spoiler for future events. During the sheepseater fight, Damon wasn't strapped in on Karaxi's back. He was able to be thrown off. I had to imagine they were thinking about the battle above the gods eye. When they made that choice, I had flashes in my eyes of Matt Smith,

leaping from dragon to dragon, wielding dark sister because he's not impeded by a pesky dragon seatbelt. I like it. I thought the lengths they went through at the beginning of the season two at Gullet to show us Jace strapped in, I'm really thinking about the way they used to talk about that.

Yeah, yeah. Thailand. A lot of just comments about how he's going to be tortured. His ears are going to be. I thought it was a very specific portrait of his future torment, which I enjoyed. What else? Let's see. Hmm.

Are we going to do the Tormond Mandarly, the Celtigar attacks? Is it happening? The cunt and cock tax? It came up again. You just want to say it. The cunt text? You just want to say it as much as possible. It's so funny.

Great stuff. Sabbatha is in the book. She does take hair and all. three days, and then she has to hide in the privy, tough one. So I guess the freeze will go to her. I guess so. That's what I'm saying. Like, that will happen the beginning of season four.

Like, I just think there's a lot of shit that they can do to draw out the Aman and and Damon thing. Yeah, they can draw that out. It's more about how much has to happen after. But I guess they can move some things around. Tell me all the things that you feel like that need to happen after God's eye. Well, everything with the shepherd, obviously, it needs to be paced so that we build toward storming of the pit.

We build toward Syrax. At some point, it would be helpful if Joffrey spoke, assuming that the Joffrey Syrac's thing is going to happen in that fashion, which I feel like is pretty important, given the dragon control element of the story. I mean, I have a lot of questions about Alicent, actually. We have to get second Tumbledon. We have to have the whole Kaltrop plot. Does that have to happen after Aman and Damon die?

Not necessarily. we have to get Dragonstone, obviously. Yeah. But that can happen. Like, if it's six, if he dies in six. Yeah. Like, and seven and eight is mostly just sort of like, Damon's gone, what is Reneer going to do?

Right. Cyrax is gone. Damon's gone. Yes. And then we get Reneer going to do. And then we get Rina. Yeah. And everything else is sort of shifted before God's eye.

I can see that happening. Just to keep Damon Targaryen in the plot. They're putting him everywhere, you know, he's just all over everything. Is that Tompleton? He has lead billing on the show. I know. So, yeah.

I'm not eager to say goodbye to Damon Dargarian. No, nor am I. I just, you know, I think they're going to stretch it out. I think they will happily reshuffle whatever they need to reshuffle to keep Damon Targaryen on the show. We thought, Butchers Ball was going to be like episode two of this season. I know. And they're like, let's keep Fabian around until episode six. That was a mistake, though.

But it wouldn't be a mistake to keep Damon around, I don't think. Anything else from the book spoilers? I mean, I'm just excited for Alice to be, like, obviously pregnant. Same. Yeah. With a smoke, baby. So it'd be great. Maybe.

Obviously, there's an actual child standing next to her in fire and blood at one point, but maybe he's smoky and then the longer he's around, he takes more shape. Yeah. Corporeal form. Yeah, corporeal form. It happened. All right, that's a wrap. Please join us as a reminder. live, live for the Talk to Thrones finale on Sunday night after the episode of House of the Dragon.

We'll be with CR. We're excited for that. And then we'll be back next week for our deep dive and hopefully a surprise or two. Thank you to our squad today. Carlos. Chereboga. A hero who still now has to edit all of this. Legend icon.

We've been out this for hours. Prince. Scott Lee. Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Ramga Powell and Jomey Adoneron. We will see you in a couple days for the Odyssey Mailbag and Nolan Power Ranking. and then on Sunday live for Talk to Thrones. Goodbye. Bye. What if we just plucked that hair?

I asked Carlos earlier if anyone had tweezers. I do. You don't just pull it out? I kind of want to just do it with my fingers. Okay, are you ready? Yeah. Glad you guys have that on camera. And now I have your hair for spells.

Ha ha ha.