House of R - It’s a "Glicked" Double Dive: ‘Gladiator II’ and ‘Wicked’ | House of R

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

Get your brooms and swords ready! It is time to dive into the movie double feature of the weekend. 'Gladiator II' and 'Wicked' are taking the world by storm, and Jo and Mal are here to give you their thoughts on both blockbuster spectacles. They also play a little game of Name That Thigh. 'Gladiator II' (10:15) 'Wicked' (1:01:58) Name That Thigh (2:00:06) Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal, Aleya Zenieris Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to by Bor's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the friars turkey breast only from Borris Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Borshead committed to craft since 1905. I remember that day. I never forgot it. But a slave could take revenge against an emperor. Where were you born? I don't know.

I never knew a mother nor a father. You will be my instrument. You are you. within you. She doesn't give a talk when anyone thinks. Something is not the same. Of course she does. She just pretends not to. Welcome to a very special pre-holiday edition of House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson.

That's Mallory Rubin. And according to the Time Dragon Clock, it is Thais o'clock, baby. We are here to cover both Wicked, part one. and Gladiator 2 at your Fondrequest. And I'm delighted to be here, Mallory Rubin. How are you feeling? Are you excited to talk about thighs and also which stuff go? I am.

I'm thrilled. Thrilled to be here for a surprise, glicked, double dive. I'm elated to share this dual moviegoing experience together. I indicated in the group chat last week, I believe, that I'd be. seeking a standing desk before this pod so that I could participate fully in thighs o'clock. I was not able to procure one in time. Okay. Sadly.

But it's always thighs o'clock in my heart. It's thighs and repose. We're thighs and repose today, and that is fine. Listen. Okay. You mentioned Glickid. As we mentioned last week, I apologize, as I mentioned at least, I was not overly fond of Glickett as a portmanteau for Gladiator and Wicked, the double cinematic experience.

So we asked our listeners for a couple things. One, we asked them for suggestions on how they would combine gladiator and wicked into a jaunty little phrase or portmanteau. And also to please risk life and limb in order to take selfies inside of the rickety nosferratto coffins in your local AMC theater. One of us. Ask for that. Not a single person has decided to potentially injure themselves for my pleasure. And I'm just saying, if you want to do that and then send me a video that just says, are you not entertained, it would be on theme.

So there's still time to do that. I'm just saying. I didn't see the coffin. When I went to see Wicked, I did look. I did follow up as promised with another photo of me standing underneath Craven's abs. And I'll continue to do that as often as for the rest of the year. The movie theaters of Los Angeles allow me to. I think I want a whole album of you just pointing at a greasy ab or two.

you're going to get one. Sounds great. Our listeners did come through with some names, some potential names. So I'm going to run some value. Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm. We got thighs and dolls.

Right. Yeah. Great. We got, there's no place like Rome. Which I really like. Okay. Great. Wonderful.

And then our listener, Adam, came through with a whole bunch. I'm just going to read you a couple. A Song of Thais and Fiero. To give us a nice throne being. I like it. No one mourns the thicket. Oh. Oh.

That made me laugh. But the overall winner, we have many, many emails about this. And I think we have settled that this is the official house of our, we're doing defying gravity. That is the one. We got a bunch of listener emails on that front. You guys crushed it. Thanks so much.

Even though we don't actually want to de-thi anything. No, no. We want to thys to be present in a handful. Rethi in gravity. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. This is a great one. Prugging reminders.

Yeah. Tell us. It is a holiday week. Is it? We will have some offerings here in half of our. The boys, Poo, and the rest of the ring of verse schemes are taking the week off. And I love that for them. Me too, genuinely.

A ringer verse recommends from the whole crew that's going to drop this week, though. Next week, we're all sort of getting on the skeleton crew bandwagon. That's really excited. we're Star Warsing it up. A button match has a PSI 30th anniversary draft. That makes me feel fucking ancient. Rightly. Ancient, withered, crone.

Mural. You know, anyway. And some of our upcoming episodes, if all goes ahead and plan, we'll be done in person because I'll be down in L.A. So Mali and I will be covering Dune Prophecy, covering Skeleton Crew, gazing at each other's eyes. That's right.

You're coming to L.A. the first week of December for previously settled reasons. And as discussed on our most recent podcast on Friday, then you're staying an entire additional week so that we can see Craven together. For all perpetuity. If you just want to like, if you want to run on a private theater every week for us to watch Craven, then I'll never leave L.A. So that's just something I think about.

I'm in. That's a lot. Not just our personal Craven viewing schedule. but everything else is going on. So Mallory Rumen, how can folks keep track of all the stuff that's happening

here, there, and everywhere? Great question. Yeah. Great question. Thanks for asking. When someone figures out the answer, let me know. Here's what we would recommend.

Yeah. It's simple. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Here's the amazing thing about following on Spotify, though.

You could get full episodes, video episodes of House of R and Midnight Boys. Pugh, on Spotify. You can also watch those full video episodes on the ringerverse. I almost said newish again, but then I stopped because you were so proud of me for not saying it last week. I was on the ringerverse YouTube channel. So subscribe there as well. While you're at it, follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. And then send us an email,

Joe. The emails are coming in. No coffin photos yet. Yet. But plenty of other emails. Dune emails. Yeah. We got one this. like this morning that was just labeled, I think, like, not enough space Coke or too much space coke, which has to do with Dune Prophecy. Stay tuned to find out more about that. Yeah, so please do email us. We appreciate that about you. Spoiler warning for today. Yes. Yeah. So we're doing Gladiator and we're doing Wicked. Those are the two things we're doing. We're doing them in two different sections so that if you've only seen Gladiator, you can listen to the first half. If you only seen Wicked, you can listen to the second half. And then furthermore, in the Wicked section,

We do have a little mini spoiler section for Wicked because there is a part two of this film coming. It is Act 2 of a very, very popular, well-known musical, but just in case you don't know, the plot of Wicked act 2 or the Wizard of Oz, I guess. We are going to save that for a little spoiler section. So that's sort of the play. We don't have a ton of talk about there, which thought we'd have a little spoiler section. And then somewhere in the mix there. depending on how well this goes over. We have a little game, a little present for Mallory Rubin that I cooked up and I forever

destroyed my search algorithm doing so. We're calling it, name that thigh, where Mallory will be looking at some zoomed-in photos of various famous thighs and trying to identify them here on the. this podcast, on this audio podcast, but it is also a video podcast. Let this be everyone's incentive to join us on video. If you want to see it, it's just great. You know where to find us on the not so new feed on YouTube and on Spotify. I love this. I'm excited. I, this is how I know you're a really generous friend and creative partner. Because I would say, while I am fairly regularly horny on Maine on the pod, I don't know that I'm necessarily known for.

my thigh lust, whereas I think you are very prone to thigh lust. And yet, you have decided to give me the thigh quiz to cheer me up because you know I'm having a tough few days here. You are having a time. That's how I know you were just the pal of all pals, like, just collecting a bunch of photos of thighs for me to gaze upon. Wonderful. Thank you. Today I learned I have a thigh thing. I did not know that this is a me thing. I mean, it can be an all of us thing, which is great. We're all learning and growing together. Okay. Well, I have a surprised thigh or two for you to look at? Who can say?

Is Halo around? For a little halo haunch? Oh, man. He does have muscular haunches, as you know. He's an Olympic caliber athlete. It's Thanksgiving. I should have done something more like thigh or drumstick. I don't know.

We'll see. Okay. Never mind. It's not too late. You said it was the last segment. You get audible in real time if you want. Okay. Should we talk a little bit?

about Gladiator 2? Let's do it. Just a little bit. A little bit. If you want to deeper dive into Gladiator 2, Mallory, Sean Fantasy, Chris for Ryan, did a really good episode of The Big Pick on it. And then I will be on trial by content later this week with David Neal to wrap up our Denzel Washington, three-week extravaganza with our Gladiator 2 takes.

Delightful. You will hear more about my Gladiator 2 feelings there. You can hear more Mallory's over. there, but we wanted to give you sort of our joint takes on this film. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical

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pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit zepbound.lily.com. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep.

apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptitine-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or a thyroid. you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic

reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9 or visit Zetbound. Lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series Dutton Ranch.

Kelly Riley and Cole has a returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Cole Hauser Kelly Riley Annette Benning

and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Written by David Scarpa directed by Ridley Scott long awaited

question mark sequel to the best picture winner from the year 2000 Gladiator set 16 years after the events

that kicked off the first Gladiator film and centers on Lucius Varis Aurelius who is

the son of both Lucilla, who is a character in this film, and Maximus Desimus Meridius, which is Russell Crowe's character from Gladiator. So that is, that is the gist. This opened, of course, several days ago. We were recording this on the Monday after opening weekend here in the US of A.

An okay box office showing. A little disappointing, I think, a little below what they wanted, but not embarrassing. 55.5 million domestic. Not embarrassing at all. And then the critical of fan reaction, critical reaction, pretty low, fan reaction. Not great, not terrible. I don't think this is like a failure.

But I think this is something like if you were really, really looking forward to gladiator to. I think this is something everyone feels like is okay, not great, not what they wanted, maybe is sort of where we're standing. In terms of your hype level, Mallory, other than you putting it on a draft earlier this year. What's your relation to the original Gladiator and how much was that informing your sort of expectations for this film? Yeah, I was incredibly excited for the movie. As you just alluded to, I selected it to the rage of my fellow drafters in the second round of the annual House of Our... I remember supporting you. I remember supporting you. I think you came around late and certainly by the fall height meter. You also had it, you had it on your list and had embraced it in full. And it's like, I think because rage came from a fantasy shaped. A fantasy shaped object.

Shaw was appalled. It doesn't sound like. I think mostly because he was like, I would have just picked this if I had done. I could. Yeah. So I was very much looking forward to the movie. I love the original Gladiator. I think it's incredible.

I, you know, I said on Big Pick that one of the things I love about it is it's like a movie that really throws you the first time you see it and then you kind of never tire of revisiting it. like rewatching it heading into this movie, which I then really regretted, having consumed it in such close proximity to the new movie. It was just so fun to go back and watch it again. I love it. The performances are wonderful. The spectacle is so supreme. You know, I'm a sucker for a tale set in Rome in general.

But I was really, and also in addition to really loving the first movie, I love so many of the performers in this film. Paul Meskell and Pedro Pascal are two of my greatest loves. And obviously, there are a ton of other incredibly meaningful and important and talented performers in the movie. It's like the idea of having Denzel in this movie was so exciting. We love Joe Quinn, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, I love a Ridley Scott movie. Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies. I love Alien.

It's Thelma and Louise, you know, on and on and on the list goes. So pretty much everything about this had me as a lot of. excited as I possibly could have been for a movie. That was the hype I brought into it. How about you? What was your hype level heading in? I am not someone who has rewatched a gladiator a ton of times. I can't remember ever rewatching it, actually.

I remember so fondly and distinctly watching it in the theaters, obviously, in the year 2000. I was a freshman in college, which really, really, went with the dorm. It's really, really fun. And I remember listening to Soundtrack over and over and over and over and over again. But I don't remember sitting down and saying, like, I'm just going to watch Gladiator. But then when I popped it on, like in advance of Gladiator 2, I remembered it so well. And you and I have talked about the fact that like maybe our memories aren't what they used to be. Maybe like sometimes we feel like we're certainly not got like gaping craters inside of our brains.

Apparently my brain, my little struggling little brain was holding on to all these. information about gladiator because I remembered everything and I was like wow and of course absolutely slaps um so I was really excited for this because as you mentioned a lot of our favorites are in it um I had heard from some people I trust and now I'm questioning like early on like months ago they had seen it and they were like actually I think he did it because I also love a ridley scott movie but you named a bunch of Ridley scott movies from very early in his career and I would say of late Ridley has not really been doing it for me and so I was like okay Ridley came back around for Gladiator,

something that means a lot to him. It means a lot to all of us. And then I saw it and I was like, it didn't really hit for me. I really wanted it to, we had heard from Sean and Chris that they didn't really like it. And Sean and Chris are the two people that I would assume would most like Gladiator too.

So I was like, oh no. But I went in so determined. I was like, maybe I will love this. Like maybe it will just be for me. I heard there were thighs and I just found out mere minutes ago that I have a thigh thing. And I love, I love, you know, a Shakespearean hidden identity, long lost air sort of story. Sounds great to me. And then I watched it and I just straight up did not have a wonderful time with it.

With the exception of every single second that Denzel Washington was on screen, which was a feast for. all of us. So, so I wouldn't say that like gladiator's top of my list of films that I like, you know, hold close to my heart, but I recognize it as such a solid example of sword and sandal filmmaking and one that I really loved and a tour to force from Russell Crow. And then also in rewatching it, I was just reminded of like all the great older actor, you know, like Richard Harris shows up and then Oliver Reed is there and then Derek Jacoby, who is in this movie, but you wouldn't know it because he was very wasted. Um, you know, is like all these like great like old dudes are in the original Gladiator in addition to

Joaquin doing everything he's doing is something like that. So I am yeah I guess most my biggest takeaway from Gladiator too is how much it has reinforced my appreciation for the first Gladiator film. Yeah. For sure. While not being the additive thing that I was hoping it would. Yeah. I think that's what I say in sort of like a snapshot set. Yeah. I mean I I guess I'll say what I thought of the movie. I didn't dislike Gladiator 2. You know, I had fun at the movies. I was genuinely like, are we not entertained?

I was entertained. Genuinely entertained. I had a, you know, a full spread of confections and various savory items as well. I'm worried for you, but I support you. Full meal. and, you know, ran into a couple pals at the screening, and I was excited to see it, having just rewatched the movie the couple days prior.

And I was laughing and had my jaw open a few times watching some of the set pieces play out. So entertainment quality was there for me, but I just found so many things in the story to be confounding. and particularly like in a specific micro sense, but also just in the macro sense, the movie is so similar to the first one that it just makes it impossible to not feel

that it didn't live up to that because it's so similar, you can't help but make comp after comp after comp. And we talked about this a lot in the big pick, but one of the issues I had with it was what felt like the simultaneous, similar, similar, similar, similar, similar, until.

And then that's really like, robbed for me my ability to like get lost in the movie because to use macronus as an example. It's like, okay, well, this is the proximo figure. And it feels clear that the intention is to subvert our expectation of how that character actually did stand by Maximus's side, et cetera. So it was simultaneously so similar and familiar. And then all of the end points did this character die? They're probably going to live.

etc, et cetera, et cetera. Did this character stay loyal? They're probably going to be a source of treachery. Is this a character you have your eye on because we think they're the enemy? They're actually probably going to be good. And so there was like less suspense in terms of the character dynamics and the plot, but also just your mind kept making the comp to the thing you already were much more familiar with. And that was just a very, I thought, like, disorienting and distracting viewing experience on top of everything else.

So entertaining, but in terms of the quality, I think, just not, not particularly close to the first film. And I wonder if I've only seen this once, you know, we talk about this a lot, but often when I see a movie for a second time or a third time and know what awaits, I'm able to like appreciate it more. And on Friday when I was recording Big Pick or Thursday when I was recording Big Pick with Shawna Chris, I felt like that would be my experience with Gladiator 2, like when I was. see it again, I'll probably like it more. Maybe that's true, but I will say the more I've thought about it since seeing it, the less positive I feel about it. So I don't know. I'll be curious. But again, it was like, it was a fun movie. It's not really about whether it was fun. It's about some of the, I think, particular choices in the plotting, some of the recconning, which I found not surprising, but still confounding. And I think the tonal adjacency issue.

shoes between certain pockets of the cast. For me, yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes, everything with like, you know, there are two creepy little emperors in this movie. Delightful. And everything with Fred Hesinger's character and his monkey

I felt like, I felt like bread and circuses. I was just sort of like, yes. First consul dandis. Let's refer to him by his proper title. Give me everything with the monkey. And I Actually, I was having a great time. Wonderful stuff. I don't know what that says about me, but here we are.

For me, in terms of the like tonal swings, both in performance, but also in just sort of the arc of the movie, something that I really felt, I actually don't have a ton of information about this. So I'm not, I'm not like saying, I know behind the scene stuff and this is why. I just felt that, and this is something Ridley does all the time, that he shot like a five-hour movie. And then we got this chopped down version of it. We know that there are certain characters that. really sort of cut out entirely. And I just really felt that where I just felt like we're missing the scenes that lead up to this.

And if I were to guess, and this is sort of where we're going to go somewhat next, but like, if I were to guess, I would say a lot of Pedro Pescal stuff didn't make it into the film. That would be my guess because he's second built in the film and for a why. Before we into sort of some performance-based stuff, I want to follow up on this, on the sequel idea that you talked about, this idea that. it's like a retread of the original plot until it's not, to your point. Something I was thinking about, I was thinking about that, that is probably one of the most

common complaints about this movie and a really, I think, justified one. But I was like, that's not a disqualifier for some sequels that you and I both have enjoyed in the past and some examples I could come up with of films that have been accused of retreads of previous installments in the franchise are The Force Awakens. Got that all the time. and I personally love the Force of the Vikings. The Last Jedi, I film that you and I don't need to spend

any more of our breath defending, but gets a lot of Empire Strike Back. Cumps, Ghostbusters 2 is genuinely made fun of because it feels like a retry to the first Ghostbusters movie. And I'm just like, I mean, as you know, on our recent, you know, props episode, I would gladly own a portrait of Eco the Carpathian. I actually think I enjoy Ghostbusters 2 more than I enjoy the first Ghostbusters.

And I understand that that is. is like a blasphemous thing to say. T2 Judgment Day does exactly what you're talking about where it gives us almost like frame for frame reshoots of the original Terminator setups and stuff like that, the Terminator film. But since Arleswinter is playing a defender rather than the pursuer this time, there are all these just like twists on it.

Terminator 2, obviously a masterpiece. Top Gun Maverick. Playing the hits and just doing it really well. And then something like Incredibles too. So, like, this is something that, like, some of our biggest entertainment does time and again. And that it works in those instances in a way that it did not, for me, work here. And I'm trying, I was trying to figure out why. And I think it's that plot structure is less, it's important, but is less important than I think having characters we feel like we can really connect to and sing into.

The reason that the Star Wars sequels work for us is that we feel incredibly emotionally. connected to those characters. The way that Terminator 2 works because Sarah Connor is like one of, I care deeply about John Connor hit or miss. Sarah Connor, I care about her a lot. And then like Top Gun Maverick, I mean, I don't know if that's, there's a lot of actually emotionality going on in Top Gun Maverick as it deepens sort of our understanding of the first Top Gun and of Maverick as a character.

And so like I feel like despite the incredible. actors that are performing in this film. And we're going to talk about a couple of our faves in a second. But, like, I didn't feel like I had access to. Okay, I'm going to say something that I usually try never to talk about. Because I don't think that it is good for womankind in general. But I just want to say that Connie Nielsen, who is someone that I really enjoy. I was just going to say this.

Yeah. Has Botox her face to a degree that, like, Like, no, she was incapable. This is not what you're going to say. This is what I was going to say, but I was going to talk about Godine. Carry on. That, like, to a degree has put so much filler in her face that, like, she seemed incapable of making facial expressions to a certain degree.

I quite like her in the first film. I found her largely inaccessible here. And then I've seen her in the press interviews for this and her face is, like, her fillers have, like, settled to a degree that she's able to make facial expressions again. And so I'm just sort of like, she just, she looks like frozen and out of time and, like, all this stuff. Again, I try not to talk about women and the work they've had done on their face, but this is one of those instances where I was like, you physically cannot make the expressions you need to make so that I can relate to you as a human being in this film. That was my experience.

What were you going to say about cutting this? I just was not a performance in this movie that I thought worked at all. And it's supposed to be the emotional center. It's supposed to be Lucilla as a character and then her relationships with a number of different characters in the film. Like, obviously with her son, Lucius, but also with Acacius, that relationship in particular did not work at all. Yeah, or to the point where I was like, wait, are we going to learn that this is not a real?

Like, I couldn't tell if we were supposed to doubt the depth of their affection for each other at certain points in the film. So I think, like, that is one of the huge differences between the success of this movie and the success of the other movies that you just cited, not only maybe overall excellence and quality, but the idea of a connection to a prior story and the parallels, it's like, what are the parallels for? Are they supposed to tell us something about people's ability to change? Are they supposed to tell us something about the cycles and patterns that society falls into?

The parallels between a new hope and Force a Weekend not only never bothered me, but always thrilled me because, one, there's the meta, like, we are resetting your experience as Star Wars fans' quality to it, but also, like, the fact that the galaxy found itself in that place again was part of the point, part of the text of the story. And I think that, I would say the comp there is like not clear to me in Gladiator 2 and a lot of the origin story stuff for how Lucius came to be in this position and feel this way about. Rome. We have some of what we need. He's cast out by his mother to protect him, question mark, from the people who want to come take his path to the throne away. And then he has to run away during a soccer match and then is lost to everyone and then finds love and found family. And that's great and a sense of belonging. And then starts to see Rome from the outside and judge it and hold it in low esteem. But like, we only have a couple beats to establish all of that. And so when Lucius sees his mother and he sees her next to Acacius, a character he loathes and blames for the death of his wife, for the horrors that have inflicted Numidia and the places that he called home,

okay, the fact that he sees her next to him, like, and is appalled, that clocks. But when she goes into his cell and he has no, there's no part of him in that scene that is, like, moved. by that reunion. I found that difficult to understand. And I don't think we know enough about the characters or their circumstances for that to work. And, like, that's the heart of the movie in every choice every character makes. That, yes, the heart of Lucius is so important. And we're going to talk about Paul as, like, a performer and what he's capable of and all that sort of stuff.

But, like, also that larger question of, like, empires rising and falling in cycles. Like, I think that the Force Awakens Comp, the devastation that we did all. all this and then we laps back into fascism or also in the Force Awakens the burden of a legacy that looms over the next generation when you think about like Kylo Ren and his very famous parents and stuff like that. So like for Lucius, you know, to have his father's like armor on the wall and for all of us to know from the minute he sees it that he's going to wear it in the final act of the movie like, of course he is. But like even if of course he is, what does it mean to him?

In the part that you mentioned about him, like reuniting with his mother, what I think, and maybe I just need to watch the movie again to get clarity on this, but I think it is ambiguous to me whether or not he has actually suppressed some of the memory of who he was or whether or not that is entirely an act he's putting on.

Because to me in the performance, there are moments where it feels like he is remembering things that he had sort of put away. And then there are other moments where I was just like, no, that was just sort of his emotional cover for something and better the other thing. But let's go back to the Armour thing. What did you want to say about that? Well, what did you make about the choice to reveal that he's Max Missa's son, which is just obviously not the case in the first movie? And I found like... I always thought that was the implication of the

first movie. Really? Yeah. I found this so odd. Really? I was, I always... So this, you didn't bump on this at all. You felt like this was always the implication and then they're just like solidifying it. That was just always my assumption. was that he was his father. Okay. Because of her, you know, connection with him. Yeah, yeah. They're romantic history.

Like, all of those other stuff. It was like, I don't know. That was always my assumption. But again, I haven't, like, I haven't been a frequent rewatcher of Gladiator. So it's possible that when I knew that that was the premise of this movie. So it's possible that when I rewatched Gladiator this time, I was watching it with that lens. But I, when I watched it with that lens this time, It was my memory that that was always my like theory or assumption, that that was like an implied issue but not stated.

I don't know. But you bumped on it. You didn't like it. You felt like it was a massive retcon. I feel that it takes the centerpiece of the first movie and complicates it for no reason. Like I don't know that Lucius has to be Maximus's biological son for any of the lessons that. And actually, I feel like, undermines a little bit. of the first movie, which is that, like, he was a source of inspiration for everyone, whether

or not they had a direct tie to him. And especially because we saw how Lucius as a boy, like, responded to him and was awed by him. I don't know that he needed to think he was his biological son for this sort of, like, tether to feel like a meaningful pull into a different sort of life. It actually felt to me like the movie needing a excuse or shortcut to have him like embrace his legacy ultimately, which is not. something that he felt appalled toward in any other respect, really. And I think because the first movie hinges so fully on Maximus avenging his wife and son, the fact that Lucilla in the first movie, like, obviously I agree with you that they're

romantic history as a parent, but, and present and, you know, a certain stretch of the film, the fact that she's never like, and by the way, you have a living son, just doesn't make sense to me then. Like it just I found it again kind of like and also just distracting and the like wait, did like, forget something about this movie or miss something about this movie? It was just like a disorienting kind of viewing experience,

which it sounds like other people had, but maybe not everyone. So yeah, I was just curious if that was something you bumped on or not. But I'm actually heartened to know that that's not something that is like throwing everybody. On the on the Pedro and Paul front, we want to talk about. two of our faves.

Love them both. Wonderful. We love them with all our hearts. We've been talking about Paul a bit. Let's swing back to Pedro. I keep going back and forth in this. Like, why would you hire Pedro Pascal to do this? Because part of it I was like, why wouldn't you let him have like more verb, more personality, more, you know, he's so good at being sort of like cheeky or funny or like all this other stuff.

And I was like, wait, but we've seen him, of course. in a number of stoic performances recently. He's giving stoic in the Mandalorian. He's giving stoicism in The Last of Us. But The Last of Us is Stoicism, A, is bumping up against another character who is the opposite of Stoic. And then also there is that sort of like cracking open of Joel in the Last of Us that we so enjoy watching where we see some of that like personality and warmth come seep back into him. And so for us to get Acacius, a

just a blank a nothing of a character who has like honor and looks good in his armor and has I would say the closest I came to sort of

really feeling like okay they're letting Pedro do something interesting was just simply his silent reaction to watching the bodies burn at the end of the first battle

but to your point like with Lucilla and then even with Lucius when they're sort of fighting in the arena and he's like giving himself for Lucius and stuff like that.

It's not hitting. It's not what we want, what I want from Pedro. And I just, I just feel like Pedro, both Pedro and Paul have like, and Joe Quinn have sort of had this like explosive last few years to the degree that like kind of everyone wants to put them in their movie. Yeah.

But are not considering what they're best at. You can't just put Pedro Pascal in your movie. Well, you can. And I had a great time looking at him. But like, you can't just do that without a mind to what it is that Pedro Pascal can bring to the party. I don't know. What do you, what do you think about this? Yeah, this was one of the big disappointments of the movie. And I think what you said earlier about really feeling like there was just a ton of material that got cut, like seems clearly like the case, right? It just seems I think the second billing and then runtime part of it, just like the sheer math of it makes that seem likely,

but also the number of stretches where it felt like some sort of connective tissue between scenes or meaningful moments was just absent. You know, I agree. I don't mind. I think Pedro is like just an immensely gifted and charismatic performer, but I also, for that reason, often am very compelled by his more stoic roles because when you get those like Last of Us emotion bombs, like you're referencing,

they just annihilate you. Same in Mando, obviously. You know, like the way that has the expression on his face when Grogu touches his cheek for the first time, it just like turns you into a puddle. It's just almost unbearable. He can convey.

I know. He can just convey so much with a solitary, a single expression. So for me, this was more about them. material than the performance. I think that the scene pairings and how much of how much of the movie put him just with Lucilla and, again, a relationship in a movie that was not working. But also how his character and the deployment of his character, I think, feels emblematic

of some of the shortcomings of the film structurally. Like, I found the moment between him and Lucius in the arrangement. arena into the Coliseum to be compelling. Also, he's like physically just such an amazingly gifted performer. They, you know, they both are. Actually, I was like, oh, this is sort of what I was like hoping this movie was going to be for that stretch of the scene. But then it was not just that I was like, wait a minute. Is he seriously dead?

We have like a long time left in the movie. And he was in like five scenes. But then when Lucilla comes to visit. Lucius, after, he's basically like, we're all good now. And I'm like, why? Because he's, what does what, what does, what does Cassius's choice tell you for sure about your mother? It just like everything felt like it was on fast forward in a way that I found just quite odd. I would have loved more Pedro scenes.

I would have loved getting to see him interact with more of the characters. Because, you know, on the, on the tonal mismatch front, I actually think there's, the issue. to me is not that it felt like there were two camps of performers who were in radically different movies, though that is, I would say, irrefutably the case. It's that that wasn't like leaned into more. My favorite part, I think, for Pedro was when he's like up against our absolutely shitbag emperors. Exactly. You know, and he was like, torture me, do whatever you want, but do not lecture me. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so like it's not, I have no issue actually with the fact that they have such different energies and like ethoses.

That's actually cool. I would have liked to get to see that conflict and tension between the characters and the calibration of the performances because I think that it tells us something about the differences in how they've chosen to live their lives. And, you know, that ultimately is one of the other like same but different aspects between the films, right? It's like they're both in theory taking place on the backdrop of what should Rome be. What does Rome represent in the world or what should it be?

and what do we have a duty? Yes, to seek and preserve so that we can then send it out into the world. And it's just like, again, flipped, right? You have the Marcus Aurelius dream of Rome that people are trying to protect and then Combinus is bastardizing, right? Stealing and bastardizing.

And then here you have these batshit twins who have turned Rome and thus the entire empire into their personal playpen and think that they can push the loyalty of the people to the point where they will never be held accountable. And then we see with the riots and the response to killing Acacius, et cetera, that that will not be the case. But like the citizens of Rome are not characters in the movie.

Like even the Senate is in this movie, I think, less fully deployed as a like lens into the machinations of power and politics, you know? and like seeing our guy Derek Jacoby just get his throat sliced. I was like, wait, I need more. Why is he? I mean, like, he's there for a few scenes. And I was like, okay, Derek Jacoby's here. Tim McInerney, who I, there's a lot of Doctor Who actors in this movie.

But like, Tim McEnry is here. But like, again, as more of like a punchline, a punching bag for Denzel watching his character, someone who just gets like swallowed up by Denzel's performance rather than like any illuminating the current state of the Senate. under the reign of these toddler tyrants, you know. For Pedro fans, I just want to take a glimpse, a look on the horizon. We've got Mandalorian Grogu, a film that we have some questions about, and we will be there.

Zero, zero questions. Just joy and hope and belief. A film. I have been disappointed by anticipating a Star Wars movie that I feel sure I've been told we'll arrive in mere years. Okay. Okay. It's just me alone on this podcast, enjoying thighs, and being worried about Vandalorian and Groger, the cinematic experience. We have Fantastic Four. Yes. Something you and I are both very excited about, but I just want to, like, if you're listening, anyone. I guess, like, Reed Richards, there are different ways you can go with Reed Richards.

And I'm just hoping that we get, like, not just him being the anchor for, like Johnny and other characters that bounce off of. But for that like sort of a vuncular warmth and I don't know, just letting Pedro do all, like play all the cards in his hands, you know, is my hope.

Fantastic for. I feel like they know what they're doing. I really hope so. He's doing an Ariaster film, Eddington, which just, wow. That's, that's, I love that for him. That is like a, that is a different path entirely to take out his career, and I'm really interested in that.

And then last one, certainly not least, on the upcoming CV. Celine's songs, love triangle follow-up to pass lives a film you and I both really loved. Called the Materialists, and this will start, Dakota Johnson and Chris Evans.

The plot of this film is, said in New York City, the film follows the story of a matchmaker, Johnson, her ex-boyfriend, Evans, and a wealthy businessman, Peter Bascow. Sensational. Who says no?

Not me. Oh, man. Really excited about that. Really, really excited for that. So there's, there's bright days ahead, hopefully, for Petro Pescal's fans. But hopefully this taught him something about, you know, because the thing about, like, everyone involved in this, I'm like, how do you say no to Gladiator 2? Ridley Scott is like, I want you own gladiator too. How do you say no?

And probably you're not filled with regrets, even though it took like a gajillion years to film. But, like, you know, you were out traveling the. world having adventures, getting to know the other people in your cast, having a good time, hopefully. But like, just because the, like, sort of brightest, the juiciest fruit is being offered to, is that really what you, Petro Pascal should take? Is the question? I have to ask. Okay. Paul Meskell.

Yeah. I am personally outraged by the narrative coming out of this film that Paul Meskell is, quote, not a movie star. Is this a thing? That's absurd. Yes. Oh, my God. They were like, oh, they took him from his little Indies, and they put him in this big movie, and he couldn't handle it. And he's not, he just doesn't have capital I it.

Oh, my God. No one has ever had more capital I it than Paul Meskell. What? So here's an email we got from a listener that I thought was really interesting. Our listener Howard wrote, casting Paul Meskel as the lead in Glitator 2 was an intriguing but ultimately flawed. choice. While undeniably talented, Meskla is a profoundly internal actor, whose skill lies in portraying characters

of introspection and vulnerability. In contrast, the gladiator sequel requires a commanding screen presence, a national gravitas that cannot only carry an epic narrative, but also match the towering charisma of co-stars like Denzel Washington. Meskill's more understated style, well effective in certain contexts, pales in the shadow

of Washington's dominating persona, which leaves Meskill outmatched in their shared scenes. And Howard's email was much longer and Howard's point was not Paul Meskel's not a movie star. It was just sort of speaking to what Meskell is best deployed to do and what he is asked to do here. And I would say that like I would agree with Howard and I would say that's why Paul's scenes with Ravi, who is the slave turn arena medic, were among my favorites of the film. These are very like quiet, close connected moments for this character. And I would also, I Joanna Robbins would also say asking Paul mess, I don't know whose idea was it. Was it Paul's idea? Was it really's idea? I don't know who said this.

But someone said, Paul can you do a Russell Crow impression? And Paul said, I guess. And he did it and it sucked. And it sucked because it just wasn't him. And that, you know, obviously actors should be chameleonic and be able to do a bunch of different stuff. But it was so clearly him trying to do Russell Crow's Australian through the. strain of English via Rome Empire vowel sounds. That just felt like an added distraction, taking him away from being able to give us a performance.

Whether or not Paul Mesco can play like a big, commanding general leader of men sort of character, I'm not counting that out, actually, but not like this, I would say, not in what he was asked to do here. And keeping us from the juice from what he's so undeniably great at.

What do you want to say about that, Mallory? So I think this is one of the areas where I'm actually higher on the movie than a lot of people are. Like, I did not think that this was a poor performance. I thought there were certainly things that were odd about it. But I find, I think I find him so mesmerizing and captivating genuinely all the time. Like, this is not a bit about how hot he is, though obviously also. That is true. I just think he has like an incredible screen presence and it's difficult for many reasons to take your eyes off of it when he's performing.

I once, I think your Crow cosplay point is a really good one. I think once again for me this was less about the performance and more about what the material was asking the performer to do because, okay, let's take the reluctant leader part of it. The fact that he is a internal, understated, gentle performer, I'm like, lean into that more. That actually is interesting and could have really worked for where we're supposed to find this character. Why should the fact that he is gifted on the battlefield mean that he has to be like a rallying speechifier by the end of the movie necessarily? It actually doesn't make sense to me.

And I think it was less, the issue to me was less that he felt slightly out of sync with the place he maybe is supposed to be in the movie. And more that by the end of the movie, he's making a speech to two armies and convincing them to be one. That's not the only one. He also makes his like a rallying speech to the gladiars as well. Yeah. That one as well. We talked about that on Big Pick because Chris invoked my all-time favorite Raven, Ed Reed, who was famous for his. pregame and halftime speeches in the tunnel to get everybody to run out and take the field in charge.

And Chris's point, which I'm probably badly paraphrasing, but was in essence like Maximus was the goat at doing that. And so how can we think that Lucius's version of that is as good? And my response to that was, why is Lucius doing that at all? It's not helpful for me to... Do you have thoughts on Ed Reed? Quick sidebar. Quick sidebar. Your pal and my

Ramahoney made fun of me the other week for saying Tuesday morning quarterback on the prestige and I was like, I felt so clearly making a joke. I know that it's Monday morning quarterbacking. We are Monday morning. So I'm going to Monday morning quarterback

this, this plot line. Why wouldn't you just, why wouldn't you have something like, there have been stories told like this before where you have someone who's a leader, but someone else who's the mouth. You know what I mean?

You could have a character who gives, I'm thinking, this is a dumb example, but I'm thinking of like Paul Bettney and a Knight's tale or whatever, you know what I mean? Like you have your mouth, your speechifier, and then you've got your like leader

that everyone admires and looks up to. And you don't have to be someone who gives big speeches in order to be someone that people follow. If you need a speech, you could cast someone who is like more loquacious in that way. And so like, give us someone who is like,

so laconic the way that this character is and then have him, that's not who Maximus is. Like, you know, he's reserved in many instances, but he's like, he's constantly sort of chatting it up with people in a way that, like, Lucius is not interested in doing. And so for him to then, like, pour himself into this mold of, you know, fucking coach tailoring his way through the end of the movie is just, not working. Yeah. I would say now maybe this has something to do with the fact that this movie came out when I was early in my high school, the beginning of high school. And so, you know, I saw this movie and then shared the quoting of the movie with a lot

of, you know, 14, 15, 16 year old dudes who thought like what we do in life echoes in eternity and I will have my vengeance in this life or in the next were like the two coolest things that you could possibly say out loud. And I can't say I disagreed. there's just this is another example then of where if you're going for the same thing

it's going to feel like a pale imitation unless you nail it unless you can reach those highs then where we are death is not is not going to measure up right?

It's like well if this is where death was actually was trying to say that that was the same as like I will have my vengeance which it just wasn't just doesn't make a ton of sense It's just like, yeah, I just, I'm sorry, Paul, I love you. I love you so much. I'm so excited. Is there anyone who's like around Paul's age? Like, you, you were compelled more compelled by Paul than a lot of us were. Yeah, I did not leave the movie thinking he was like miscast or shouldn't have been in the film, genuinely. I think he was. And I love him. And I want the world for him. And I also think that he can do massive movies. I just don't think he should be in this role. Paul is also.

might be it's sort of like similar I mean but Brad Pitt could do this but like there you know there's some actors who are so leading character coded but actually what they're more suited to are supporting characters or just at the very least

like more off kilter leading characters than you're like sort of standard cookie cutter I'm a leader of men sort of thing and I think that that is like what I hope for Paul in his future that he can used to pursue like sort of off-kilter stuff because no one does it like he does it. In terms of what Paul has on the horizon, first I and then you had an absolute emotional breakdown

when we found out about an upcoming Paul Meskell movie. I did not know this until you told me and I ceased to be able to breathe. I didn't know it until I was putting these notes together and I also, we are two mere ghosts now recording a podcast together. Paul Muscle has shot a movie called The History of Sound. A movie set in the early 1900s

about two folk singers in love. One of those singers is played by Paul Meskell. The other is played by Josh O'Connor. Will there be churros involved? I don't know. But I found images of them on the set

and they're dressed in like flat caps and buttoned vests and Paul's character's glasses and it's just a lot's a lot going on and I am very excited about it anything you want to care to comment on this how will the internet survive how will any of us how will we live oh my god okay he's also doing hamlet based on the book hamlet so he's playing good old billy shakespeare for chloe ja that's a fun choice and then he's doing maryly we roll along we're all going to die before that movie comes out but someday someone will be able to enjoy

Richard Linklanders, Merrily Roll along, which he's filming over decades and decades. And then he is reportedly considering reuniting with Ridley Scott for a film called Dog Stars. And I say, simply no. I would just say, maybe don't do that, Paul, would be my thought and feeling on the subject.

Oh, man. Yeah, and less or not least, before we get into Wicked, I've been spending, I know that you and Sean and Chris, talked about this on The Big Pick. I have spent the last couple weeks on trial by content watching Denzel Washington films. Desil Washington is just sort of astounding in this movie.

There's a great... God tear. There's a great interview. His press tour has been on the Harrison Ford level of Don't Give a Fuckery and it's been wonderful. Overall, a fantastic press tour? Yeah. It's hard for me to complain about how the volume of Paul Meskell content on my Instagram

currently, honestly. And Joan Fred have been so charming in it too and stuff like that. But like, yeah, there's one interview where it's like Paul and Denzel are paired together and they're asking questions, like they've been given questions to ask of each other. And Paul asked him, is there a movie, other that you were in or whatever, is there a movie that you wish you could have been the lead in? And Denzel's like, I'm the lead in every movie guy made. It's true. It's true. So true. And it is especially true here.

I love that he took this role. Obviously, there are some absolutely killer iconic Denzel villain roles, though, like, percentage-wise in his career, it's not, you know, it's a tiny percentage of the roles he's placed. Usually he's the big damn hero. But occasionally he gets to do the villain and he does such a good job. And he is so good here. And it's such a weird Denzel performance in a way that is just so delightful. He is deliciously ambitious and. and grasping and, you know, enjoys all the appetites of life.

There was, like, some interviewer who was asking him if he was like, he had a line about, like, you know, guys are girls, is your character bisexual? And he's like, I think you'd fuck anything. Genuinely anything else. You'd eat anything, you would fuck anything. You know, so, like, he's walking around, he's like, you know, and Denzel has done a million different Shakespeare role. So, like, he knows his way around a draped toga.

Like, you know, he is. He has done Caesar. He has done all sorts of stuff. And then he, and then the fight scene at the end, like, Denzel has been boxing his whole life. So it actually, there's a moment where he goes into the water. I was like, and what planet am I supposed to believe? That Denzel bless him, like, in his advanced years,

has any chance up against freaking Lucius Varanus. So, like, what are you talking about here? And then I watched the fight. I was like, actually, there's just like a scrappiness to him. And obviously, yeah, he's been like, a fighter his whole life, that I was just sort of like, actually, this is a show that I would pay to watch. So what do you want to say about Zenzel? Any like favorite moments, if it looks, favorite lines that you want to identify from this incredible Denzel moments?

He was astonishing, completely exquisite in every respect and immensely entertaining. I did love that final fight. You know, in general, the more intimate one-on-one fights in the film were my favorite with love and respect to the baboons and their eyes. I know and the sharks and all the very grand set pieces. All love to the shark. All love, peace and love to the shark. A lot of great content on the internet the last few days about whether the sharks should have been there. But yeah, the like private party where Lucius is first trotted out to fight one-on-one

and they're throwing each other into the cakes and the various food displays. And, you know, we're building up toward quoting Virgil. That was amazing. And then I thought the final fight between Macrinus and Lucius was really, really great. So I loved that. I don't know why, but I think one of my favorite moments was when he just sawed off Gator's head. Like the way you mean, by then we are, we're dialed into understanding that he's improvising, he's adapting. He is working to acquire and accrue power and control.

and he is embarking upon this great puppeteering act and everybody, including the emperors, are his playthings. And even still, when he kind of appears in the background and reaches in, I'm like, oh, is he, what might he do? Might he stop? Might he say, let's do this in a more private space? Might he make one more play to see if he could control? Nope, just like he's hacking through Thanksgiving turkey.

That was amazing. I thought that the This is My House moment was Panthe on shit. That was so funny and so good. And I particularly loved after he was named second console

following Dantas's appointment as first console and a genuinely great movie. I'm like that, that's what the whole movie should have been. Like moments like that. That just would have been unbelievable. Correct. I loved watching

how he operated in that room because he goes within the span of a moment from being somebody who has to watch this syphilis, adult, power, mad dipshit say stupid things out loud and have everybody like pretend to nod along into then commanding absolute adherence in a second as soon as the emperor leaves.

And that was like amazing to watch. And then as an actor has to get a disembodied head out of a bag and sort of turn it around the room. In terms of like Denzel Washington, the actor, I have to say that the sequence where he lets First Counsel Dondas just crawl all over him back and forth between him and Fred as he's talking to him was like top two. I was like, how did nobody break in. I mean, sure, they did break in the scene, but I was just like, Dens is just letting a monkey crawl. all over him. Like, this is fantastic. When he says politics.

Yeah, that's great. No, no, no. It's all the stuff, like him like, you know, fucking around with those rings, like all, like, yeah, the dandying sort of stuff, the peacocking. And then, like, and then the sequence, that's the thing about when he does so well is he's just like, he's so over the top in Florida and all this sort of stuff like that. And then there's just like that genuine menace that's right there. not even always under the surface but it's just like right there and then there's the sequence

when he's talking about the slave brand onto him and like Marcus Aurelius and all the stars stuff like yeah that's the movie that's a great movie it's just buried inside some other stuff that's also here so yeah yeah

and I also loved watching just the quiet glances when he would watching him observe other characters you know the fact that he figures out who Lucius is before his own mother figures out who he is because he's his power of observation is so supreme, it helps us believe and accept that he could acquire this level of power this quickly, that he could do this thing. I agree. Because we know he's like watching and learning

and studying and clocking. I said this on big pick, but I was like, this reminds me of how Joanna and I talk about Sauron, like the great observer and the great improvisers, just like always ready to pivot to like whatever the circumstance requires in a given moment. And so then at the end, when that doesn't work out for him, when you realize that if all you're doing in real time is pivoting on the fly, the thing you never earn is real loyalty. And so the army that followed him, that wrote out with him is not willing to actually stand up for him. Like, that was really all, I thought, quite interesting. But I also just wanted to know what was the plan, because he, like, rides out as if he's just trying to, like, leave. Again, the great improviser. I like that.

But, like, well, the golden cloak billowing behind him looked great, whatever. But what was your plan? you knew that there was an army marching this way. You knew that you would send an army march. So you go, you ride to the middle of the battlefield with no. Because he didn't write out to be like, follow me men. Let's, you know, like he didn't do any of that. It's bizarre. Okay.

That's Gladiator, too. Yeah. A movie that we saw. Strange film. Yeah. Quite entertaining, but very perplexing. Yeah. That I would watch the Denzel only cut of any day of the week.

Denzel and Dondis. The two stars of this movie. that takes us over to Wicked Yes All right Wicked Part 1 based on the stage musical by Winnie Holstman

and Steve Swards which was in turn an adaptation of the much racier Seriously don't give it to a small child 1995 Gregory McGuire novel Which is itself of course A retelling of El Frank bombs The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

What is our relationship To this strain of storytelling. Other than the embarrassing story I already told about how he used to dress up as Dorothy to watch the observance when I was a child. That's not embarrassing. I find it quite touching and I was thinking of you and your little outfit while watching this. It warmed my heart.

A little basket. A little stuff to-do. I felt like you were just taking me down the layers in inception. I know. Like explaining all that. Amazing stuff. I saw Wicked in the spring of 2007 in the West End in London.

London. And I can't, when I tell you that I remembered very little of it, it is not a comment on the quality of my theater-going experience or of the production more just on my increasingly rotting mind. But I, when I studied abroad, my best sell. Should we podcast forever in our ongoing mutual decrepit? It would just podcast until there's nothing left of our minds. Absolutely.

I would love that. Wonderful. I mean, that's what we're doing right now. Correct. My best buddy, Allison and I studied abroad together. We saw as many places as we could while we were in London. And this was one of the old like go get same day discounted student tickets moves for us. By the way, a really good move to pull in London.

Like London of all, you can get like dirt cheap same day ticket. Oh, my God. Yeah. We saw a lot of stuff that way. And it was amazing. I remember absolutely loving it, even though I couldn't have been, as recently as three days ago before I saw the movie, told you much about the plot. I remember thinking it was great.

And then, of course, I recall what a sensation this was on Broadway and just across the globe and the songs and the performers, how it became just like inescapable in a good way, in a cool way. It was so clear that it was something that had really resonated with people and that people loved. Overall, I am very fond of the Wizard of Oz, as we've recently discussed on our Agatha Pods. I always liked Wizard of Oz when I was a kid, but like many others, this is not a unique detail. Like many other younger children was legitimately afraid of the flying monkeys. So I had to really confront that when seeing Wicked. But yeah, and I have not read the book, but now after hearing how chock full of sex it is, maybe I'll give it a go.

It's not just sex. It's also, it's like, yes, there's. there's like a very racy like baby oil sexine sort of situation in Gregory McGuire's Wicked which I read probably too young I don't know I was like probably like I read it when it came out so I was like I think it was like 14 or so and um but there's also it's just like very densely political as well it's just like it's just like way more mature than the stage show which is I like both and there are two different things and I did want to shout out that Rigger McIreire. This idea of like, Sean texted me over the weekend. He's like, I was talking in front of mine, someone I know about who compared wicked sort of unflatteringly to the story of

Emperor Palpatine, but what if he was bullied as a kid or something like that? And I was like, I mean, don't give so many ideas, first of all. Secondly, somehow Palpatine returned. That sounds like someone who hasn't seen act two of this show. I was like, I'm about to sound like an asshole. But sounds like someone who hasn't seen an act due to this show. that's fine. But I was like, this idea of like, what if we took the villain and, and told the story from their point of view and it's a more, um, complicated story than you knew is, is a little like worn thread bear at the, at this point in our sort of IP retread culture. But when Graywood Wired it in the mid-90s, he, he wasn't the first to do it,

but he really popularized it. And he did, he wrote books like Confessions of an Ugly Steps Sister and Mirror Mirror, all of which I read after that. And then, like, a whole bunch of other Oz books. But, like, he really was at the, at the vanguard of, um, this concept of, of taking an extremely popular, uh, story, you know, and telling you from different, uh, point of view. And, um, obviously, again, not the first. Um, and then the stage show, I,

one of the saddest moments in the life of a music, I'm a little too old to have been part of like, wicked mania. Mm-hmm. If you're talking about like, do you, Joanna Robinson know every single. word to the Broadway recording of rent. Yes, I do because I was the exact right age for that. But for Wicked, I'm just like ever so slightly. I wasn't like quite in the mania phase for that. But they opened, they tried out Wicked in San Francisco before they took it to Broadway. So Chris, the Christian Chene with Anita Mansell and Norbert Leo Butts and the rest of them performed Wicked.

I think it was first in SF or it was either like first in like Toronto and then SEP or something like that. But like very early on in San Francisco. go. And I'm pretty sure my parents went and I'm pretty sure I didn't get to go because I think I forgot. I said I would babysit that night. And I think they taught me a lesson about responsibility and said you don't get to go to Wiccan because you said you would babysit and you forgot to cancel and now you have to go babysit. That's my memory. It's possible that that's not exactly what happened because of the aforementioned decrepitude. But I do know that there was an opportunity for me to see Wicked in San Francisco before I went to Broadway and I did not

go. Oh, man. But it's a stage show that I like that I think is wonderful. And I really like, I understand its place in musical theater history. It is not like my fondest, most beloved story personally. I love Wizard of Oz. I love this world. I think this is a really clever and emotional story with a lot of, like, great banger songs.

This film directed by John M. 2, who did Crazy Rich Asians and In The Heights, one of which I really liked, one of which I didn't so much. And written by the aforementioned Winnie Holdsman and Dana Fox. Unlike Gladiator, which underperformed, this overperformed, this crushed at the box office. People are really, really liking this movie. As you like to say, it's a smashola. It is a smasharoo, baby. there was a lot I think part of it is there was

there's both the like people who are rabid for Wicked and we're going to go see this regardless Then there's also this word of mouth of like There were these lowered expectations Because people didn't love the trailers or they felt one way Or another about the press tour or whatever it is And then they're just hearing people that it's like

No actually this is great And so people are going in droves to see this movie Critics are mostly liking it audiences are really liking it. And I expect, I mean, we're headed into a holiday week. I expect it had a big opening. And I think it's just going to get bigger and bigger. We're not going to see like a massive drop-off or anything like that.

Anecdotally, like so I saw a press screening last weekend and then I went again this weekend. You last minute, you're such a champ. Last minute, the people, the listeners of this podcast were clamoring for us to cover Wicked. Mallory had no place to see Wicked this weekend. And she scrambled the Jets and on the fly. Got a ticket to see Wicked. But Mallory, how easy was it for you to get a last minute,

unlike a theater ticket in London? How easy was it for you to get a same day ticket for Wicked in Los Angeles, California? I'm no longer eligible for this student experience. So I was texting you and Steve and Arjuna about this in real time. Because my move is often like, you know, if we screen something amazing, great, if I have a chance to see it a second time, or if I'm only seeing it, you know, once before we pot over the weekend. I love a Saturday morning movie or like a Saturday midday movie.

You know, not a huge crowd. I can choose my seed, et cetera. Great. Okay. I mean this sincerely. This is not an exaggeration. I have never. I've lived in L.A. for 12 years, I think.

God, have I lived in L.A. for 12 years? Is that right? 11 years? More than 10. I'll figure out later if it's 11 or 12, but more than a decade. decade. And I have never had this hard of a time getting a same-day movie ticket, ever. And I couldn't think of anything close. Like, granted, I was looking Saturday morning to go on Saturday, but I had to check. You didn't, you didn't, Barbenheim. I know you did Barbie. Did you open a winner? You did

neither. No, because that was when Halo had his surgery. So I wasn't going out to see, I didn't see either of them in the theater. So that might have been like the equivalent. I assume it was the equivalent, certainly for Barbie on opening weekend, but it was impossible for me to find two seats next to each other at any of the showings I checked. Absolutely impossible for Saturday night and close to impossible for Saturday afternoon, which rather than frustrating me got me so excited because I was like, oh my God. I know. People cannot wait to see this movie. So I finally found a showing that I was able to get to get into. I went to the theater.

The line was out the fucking door to get in. Like to scan the ticket. Out the door. Yeah. Had I properly budgeted my time to account for this eventuality? I had not. Was I like, I have to make a choice now after scanning my ticket and getting in between using the bathroom before the movie and getting all of the snacks that I know I need for a three-hour movie. Yes.

What choice did I make? Snacks. Obviously. The line, I've never seen a line this long for the concessions. stand at a theater in L.A. It took 25 minutes. That's not a knock on everybody who was working

very hard. It's just a commentary on how long the lines were and how many people were there. It was mobbed. I texted Chris and a couple and Juliet and Sean after and Chris was like he had gone to see a different movie on Friday night, but was like I couldn't get a

parking spot at the theater. Yeah. Like it was a scene and people were dressed up and people getting their custom, you know, soda cups and popcorn buckets. And it was like, this is amazing. And then very shortly after getting back from seeing the movie, and we'll talk about what we actually thought about the movie in a second, but just in terms of like the kind of craze around it,

I had all these texts from my friends who, I don't think I had any idea. I was seeing the movie, but just like had seen the movie and we're so excited about having seen the movie and some of them took their kids and some of them went on their own. It was just like, people were overjoyed to go to the theater and watch a thing together. And like, that's fucking awesome. It was so exciting to see how excited other people were. Did a young teen throw a piece of food at my head?

Yes. But one piece of food and why? Only one. I couldn't tell you. You were singing along to the song, right? No, but if you want to talk about that budding news story, I'm happy to. I don't know, two of the tweens sitting behind me, threw something in my head on point and I turned and I was like and one of them was like trying very

hard not to make eye contact and the other one like couldn't help but laugh and I was like you know what everyone's just having fun at the movie I'm just going to turn back around and keep eating my popcorn and my Reese's and my sour patch water villains etc etc etc so yeah it was just like an absolutely packed house everywhere across the city all weekend and that's that's cool what was your what was your experience, like seeing it for a second time out with the masses. Yeah. So I saw the press news that I went to was like a combination press and fan event. They had had like a drag brunch beforehand. So there were like a bunch of people in like impeccable drag at the press event that I went to. So like delightful. Top tier. On Sunday at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland, I went with my friend Amy.

It was it's funny because like to your point, you know, I'm always trying to get people up here to go see movies with me. And there's like there's like a small. crew that I can rely on that will like go see movies. But like, you know, increasingly people just don't want to go to the cinema. It's like a whole thing. You can read a million news stories about it. Sometimes films come out like Barbie, like Dune 2, like whatever, where like the people who don't like to go see movies tell me they went to the movies. And I'm just like, it's my like bellwether. It's how I know that like, you know, something's happening. So yeah, a friend of mine was like, can we see Wicked? I was like, oh, I didn't know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we can see Wicked. And we went to the Grand Lake Theater,

three o'clock in the afternoon and a Sunday, packed to the rafters. Grand Lake Theater is one of those old movie palaces. So the concession stand, there's like a big sweeping staircase behind the concession stand. The line was all the way up the stairs, like up into the second floor wrapped around.

It was just like absolutely, but not as bang. And then, yeah, there was like a bunch of kids, you know, like families there with young kids. Yep. And there was, we didn't hear, I didn't hear any, anyone singing along to the movie, but we were slightly in the side. So it's possible that like people in the middle were singing along. I did hear a few like hushes from people.

So it's possible that they were hushing, singing our alongers. But there were massive applause moments. Just after the end of songs, people were just breaking on and riotous applause. And again, like, even having seen like Barbie and had such. a great, I loved going to see Barbie like multiple times in the theater. Even as we did, you know, seeing like Dune 2 and having like an incredible time watching Dune 2 multiple times in theater and stuff like that, this is different. And I was talking to a friend of mine who went to go see it. She was like there was a, she saw it. She saw it. She was like, there was a little girl's birthday party behind me. Like there was a row of little girls who were there for someone's birthday party to see Wicked. And she was talking about I was like, yeah, I was like, we had seen Barbie in the same theater. It was like sort of like when we saw Barbie and she was like, no, she was like because people were coming into this already loving it. And so they were just watching the celebration of something that they already loved so much. So it's this sort of like extra level of excitement and anticipation and knowing when to get excited about something.

And there, if you want to hear my film critic takes on this, I'm sure I'll be back. I will be talking to Sean about this in some capacity later on in the sort of like Oscar race conversation. I am not like, I don't think Wicked is like a perfect film. and I have a lot of criticisms of it. I think the... You think it's too short, right? You think it should have been longer? Yes.

And like... The color should have been duller. No, like, I think that... I think the experience of watching it with, like, people. And it's like one of those things that, like, also, like, tests your... Okay. Someone throwing stuff at you. Just like kids, fidgeting, people getting up to go in the bathroom.

There's just like a whole bunch of, like, humanity that you have to navigate inside of this experience. But it's all worth it for the... feel the communal feeling of we're all watching and enjoying this story together you know and so like you'll take a piece of food hucked at your head or i will take like there was someone down the aisle who did not have like full control of when or how they said things and so they were just like there was a running commentary and i was just sort of like okay that's all part of what we're experiencing there was a woman behind me who was i think literally eating cellophane like i don't know how to explain how long proper sound happened through the whole movie we're like two hours in and it's still just like crinkle city back there. I don't understand. Oh, my God. There was like two of the world's biggest Bridgeton fans were behind me.

So every time Johnny Bailey was on the screen, they were just like, oh my God. So, you know, it was just like, it was so. Who among us? I get it. That was so, again, I don't think it's a perfect film, but a 10 out of 10, like, movie viewing experience. Totally. And I'm so happy it exists. And I'm so happy so many people are delighted by seeing it.

So I completely agree. That is, yeah. that's like essentially anything you want to say about the movie itself. You know what? I honestly had a great time watching this movie. I don't know why I'm saying honestly like it's a surprise. The fact that I was not originally planning to see the movie this weekend had nothing to do with interest, just that it was not originally on our cover slate and I am drowning in other words.

You deserved this break. You deserved this break. I welcomed it when it when it popped up and it was not only, it was not only one. was it a really fun communal experience. I thought this movie was good. Like, I really had fun with the movie. And I had a very powerful emotional response to multiple parts of the story,

which again, I was like, I am familiar with the story. I haven't seen this play. It was kind of like pulling some of it back up for me from the deep recesses of my adult mind. And I thought the performances were, the lead performances. I mean, all of the performances, but the lead performances were like,

unbelievable. just unbelievable. And I also thought that if you are going to do a part one, part two, and each of the parts is going to be very long, you really have to nail the break. Not every recent part one and part two has done this, as we have chronicled on other podcasts. Yes. They crushed it.

Like building up toward defying gravity hit, I was like a jaw on the floor. Like, it was just incredible. It really was amazing and like breathtaking. And I left then not thinking about, boy, that was two hours and 40 minutes. That's a long time at the movie. As you know, I'm in general rarely faced by a junky runtime. Though I recognize that's not the case for many people. I was just like, man, I can't wait for part two.

Like they left us where they needed to to bring us back for more. That's not something. Okay, so like our Palsh on Fantasy is like pretty out on wicked and like pretty upset by how many people are enjoying Wicked. So I'm in this like ongoing conversation with him. But he loves when people go to the movies and get excited about movies. So he's he can't, he can't reject it in full.

But like he and and my pal, Katie Rich and I have been like talking about this idea about like Wicked as a best picture contender. That's like a whole other conversation. But like this I, you know, one of his points was this idea of like, it's a part one that ends on a cliffhanger. Like how can that be like sort of the best picture? of the year or something like that. And I was like, it ends on defying gravity. Like, it ends on defying gravity, which is, of course, the stage play also ends the first act on defying gravity. But I'm just

sort of like, that is not going to leave you feeling bereft as you, it might make you feel impatient for part two, which we are getting a year. We already know if they've already shot it, we're getting in a year from now, you know, like it might leave you impatient or filled with anticipation. But like, it's not going to leave you feeling like you were robbed of the story. Or confused. Like, we agree on, we both think that Dune Part 1 and Dune Part 2 are masterpieces. Like, we love both of those movies.

So to be clear, that is like our feeling about them. But there was a massive narrative, even though we did not feel this way about it. And I think a lot of that was because we brought our book knowledge to it. And it's like, well, wait, no, right. This is what, this is all that's, this is all coming. there was a massive like, wait, what? And some of that was that it was not totally apparent and clear that there was going to be a part one and part two to everybody. And also some of it was where the movie ended.

There's just not, now I do not think Wicked is as good of a movie as Dune to be clear. But like there's just no equivalent of the like, oh, wait, what? Well, there's also an A and Wicked learn, I think, from that sort of Dune mild debacle and put part one at the bottom, like when Wicked comes across the screen. Presented clearly as like part one, part two. Exactly. All right, let's talk about some of the big, the big damn themes before we get back to just like gushing about Ariana and Cynthia. So I don't know. I just thought I would hit a few of these things quickly.

Again, we're not doing like a deep, deep dive into this. But like this idea of reputation slash propaganda, which of course, and like also Wicked is not like the most subtle story that you've ever seen. But like this idea that we've talked about so often with something. of our favorite stories because I was thinking a lot about like Agatha obviously coming off of like one one wicked witch into the next. Obviously Agatha literally dressed as the Wicked Witch of the West in in an episode of Agatha all along or the conversations that we've had about Loki. This idea. This is it in a 2008 interview, Gregor McGregor McGuire who wrote Wicked in the first place said quote about like what inspired him to write it. He said quote, if everyone was always calling you a bad name. How much of that would you internalize? How much of that would you say, all right, go ahead. I'll be everything that you call me. Because I have no capacity to change your minds anyway.

So why bother? By whose standards should I live? That's sort of like his inspo for this. So like this idea that like Elfaba in this story is someone who is, you know, considered, um, hideous, a monster, othered, whatever, her whole life. But then also, and again, I mean, this, a lot of this comes back to Cynthia's performance. But at the end of the film, when we hear Madame Morrible, when Madame Morrible and the wizard scramble the jets immediately on the propaganda machine, like instantly get on the mic with their narrative. And Madame Morrible says, you know, this idea about this outer manifestation of her inner wickedness.

And Cynthia Elfabah's face as she absorbs this. things she always knew that people thought about her. However hard she's tried to be good and kind and thoughtful and giving in her life. For this to now be not just like a thing people whisper, but like narrative projected, amplified across all the land. And then there's no corner of the land that she can go to where this is not, you know, the narrative of her very existence. I found that really compelling.

And again, once again, it comes down a lot to these individual performances. Because again, this is not, it's a boiled down musical of a complicated story. So it's not trying to, it's not trying to be nuanced at all. But the complex emotionality that I felt from this performance around this moment just really, really rocked me. I cried a couple times. I cried a couple times the first time I watched it. And then I cried again, but like less, but still cried at the same moment. So that's when you know that those are like really hitting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you want to say about this idea of like the Loki Agatha sort of thread through of this, you know, call me a monster, I'll be your monster, you know, sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, Agatha was extremely top of mind for me watching this. I think obviously in part because we just so recently covered it. Yeah. And it's very fresh. But also because this was such a central theme for us that we really focused on.

when trying to interrogate and understand how Agatha had become this person and why. And, you know, we were so floored and horrified to confront, mild spoilers for Agatha here. In, you know, the fifth episode, the fact that Agatha's own mother, even though we had seen history with them in Wanda Vision, just was like, I, you know, I should have killed you from the start. Yeah. You were evil from the start. And the ease with which her mother said that in plain view of other people to Agatha, et cetera. And it's like, well, how could you ever be anything but that?

Yeah. If everybody already thinks you are that. And also the other parallel was like this question of control with your power and how the source of your power is not something for Agatha at certain points in the story, for Elfie in part one here that, like, you are able to command in full and how that is, of course, scary to other people, but equally scary to you. And then, like, you know, the fact that, I love the way you're putting it about, like, you know, activating that propaganda machine. The fact that the characters who are doing that were sources of protection and hope previously

makes it all the fowler, right? Like, okay. I have gone, Elphaba, we've seen from the moment Elphabba's born, like her father's rejection and judgment. We see a slightly older but still young Elphaba have to have to face the mockery of other children. The cruelty of children is known by all, that's George R. Martin likes to say. And that moment then when Elphabah's power sprouts out of her at Shiz, and Madam Morrible is like, I will teach you, come study with me, come learn, you're special. The thing you can do is amazing. Let's nurture it, intended, and cultivate it, and you should be proud and you're unique and you're special.

And this is a gift. And then, of course, that launches into one of the many great musical numbers, like, this thing that I can do is like, is it possible that this thing that I always thought was horrible was actually like amazing and that's incredible, right? And very empowering. And taps into like one of the central themes of the story. And that's part of what's beautiful about the budding friendship between Glinda and Elphaba is like actually genuinely watching the initial judgment and prejudice turn into appreciation and respect and love. And so then like when Madam Morrible is like actually you're just a tool and a pawn and I just wanted to use. And I just wanted to.

use you and then, you know, to see that Elphaba was so desperate to seek the wizard because, again, that would unlock some, like, possibility and purpose. That's where Loki was on my mind, too, not just the, like, people tell you you're going to be a monster, be a monster, but the idea of purpose, right, of terrible purpose. And, like, for the wizard, and we are primed as people familiar with Oz to expect this, of course, but still to be, like, confronted with that disavis. appointment, it's just so harrowing and it's just so sad. And like then also you have the more intimate and close to home versions of that. Like it's her father right away, but like to watch with Nessa Rose, you know, the way that, um, we are expecting the devotion to be mutual and full. And it's like,

we start to realize that it's going to be a little bit different maybe than what we're anticipating. And that's, that feels very true to life, but also very sad. So it's just, even though, it's such a candy-coded, boisterous affair, it's really heavy in a way that, like, I think a lot of people, you understand, of course,

why so many people love the story, because those themes of, like, judgment and prejudice and belonging and identity and sense of self and acceptance and empowerment and how those things build to each other, but also then can kind of, like, pull down. It's like, you know,

whether or not you're the capable of sorcery in Oz, like there's something there you can latch on to and relate to. So I thought that was all really really lovely. I think also something that I've been really ruminating on, watching these scenes, like popular, obviously being one of the most famous songs in the show, but like this question of like popularity or group think or when you take a stand to defend people and when you don't and how it's this it's this pervasive atmosphere of fear and uncertainty and like you know especially is uh you know despite the fact that johnny bailey is like i don't know in his late 30s we're all these are all supposed to be teenagers uh uh going to schiz university and like you know like

nessa rose a character that frustrates me so much because i'm like where is your goddamn loyalty to your sister but also like she's someone who's just so afraid herself like she's so afraid. And so I can have empathy. I have frustration for and empathy for these, like clicks and group thinking and popular and all that sort of stuff is corrosive and toxic, but it's also just like so

human to be like so uncertain and so afraid to be different and lonely and, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. So, um, also I was thinking about something that, that Villanda says at the beginning of the movie when she's, you know, speaking out to the Munchkins and she's talking about are people born, you know, to paraphrase

William Shakespeare, are people born wicked? Or do they have wickedness thrust upon them? I was thinking about our guys saw her own. Like, nothing is evil in the beginning, right? You know what I mean? This idea of like, yeah. Okay. And then the, like, this idea of story,

the power of story, one of our favorite, what's more important than story? I just have to act. Dinklage is here. Joins the chat. Steven Schwartz, who wrote, the music and lyrics for for wicked also wrote this incredibly challenging incredibly important musical called Pippin they also wrote Gadsbell i don't like Codspell but

Pippin uh is incredibly challenging to watch but it is about it's about a troop of actors and they're basically basically trying to create um an epic story using this like young man they find they're like you're in a story you're the hero and how they want that story to end this is weird to explain. Now they want that story at the end, they want him to light himself on fire as this like grand finale for the entertainment of the audience. And he like rejects that and goes and finds a quieter, like less heroic but quieter life of, you know, hopefully happiness. And the players are so frustrated because like the story demands. The story is hungry and the story demands this act of sacrifice or this big spectacle or et cetera, et cetera. And I was just thinking about that a lot. And I was just thinking about that a lot. lot in terms of like this idea of the wizard as you know obviously a fraud and a sheister from the instance that el frankbaum conceived him but like yeah as someone who understands story as something to feed people um you know and and he says it quite plainly in terms of like people you know give them an enemy or someone to hate but just the again that propaganda machine whirring into place is and then

opening the story at the end of the story when we see the like the literal propaganda posters of Elphaba, the effigy of her on fire, all this sort of thing is like what does that what does that angry munchkin mob demand of the story of this of this world that they live in and how does that make them easier to control is such a fascinating part of it. And I you know something I think that's been on Stephen Schwarz's mind like his entire time of creating story himself, just sort of like the seductive power of story, the just absolute stranglehold that story can have on us and how you always have to be one, right, this takes me back to Into the Woods, but how you always have to be asking yourself, who's telling this story? We don't like the way you've been telling it. Who's been telling this story? And what is there? Who is fueling the myth and why? Yeah. Yeah. This is something, sidebar, but this is something that we thought about a lot when we talked about when we were writing our book on the MCU and the question was constantly, the question I was constantly asking,

it was like, who is in control? Who is in control of this storytelling machine? Thank you so much. Who is in control of this storytelling machine? Because that is such a powerful weapon to have. And I'm not, that's like your most cynical take on the MCU or any, any kind of storytelling apparatus, but it's just sort of like, these are such important myths that we consume. And so the person who decides what it means to be. be the hero of those myths, decides what we grow up thinking about who gets to be a hero in this world.

And so, like, you can say something sort of empty and false, like, representation matters. It does, but, like, that sounds kind of empty at this point. People say it this way or that way, but, like, these Marvel movies, people can, like, dismiss them. They matter. They root

in us. These myths root in us. People are just still telling versions of Wizard of Oz, because that is, like, Elvinkbaum tapped into the root of a myth that would captive in us for a hundred of years. So, yeah, power of story. Anything you want to say on the idea of the power of story,

Mallory, Riven? Oh, I love that. I love that observation. And I like how that feels true, both inside of the world and around all of the various adaptations and the staying power of playing in the universe. And it's literally what we were just talking about in terms of like being in a packed theater, sharing a story with people.

You know? Yeah. Yes. This is why, so on the singing in the theater front. Yeah. Now you know me very well. I just prefer to be home. We're not around very many people, though I also do love to share stories with people.

Both those things are true. I once did an episode of The Hottest Take, where I presented to a few of my colleagues, including Sean, who was confounded and appalled, the idea of movie pop. If I'm remembering my own take, which candidly I might not be. I was like, I was basically pitching the pods from Love is Blind inside of movie theaters. Because I was sort of like, I don't want to opt out of like sharing things with other people, but I would like to control like the noise and like the experience a little bit more. Does rent out of private theater to watch Craven?

That's more to just keep you here. But yes, other benefits as well. So I was interested in my own, like, visceral response to seeing all of these headlines about the... People singing in the theater. And I'm like, let people sing and enjoy themselves in the movie theater. And I feel like I'm... But so I have a sub take. Okay.

Which is, I think we were... The Ringer Pop Culture Slack is the vibrant space today discussing this. And my suggestion was like, movie theaters need, and this is again, building on the long ago, how to take episode where I'm just like, let's start offering more experiences at the movie theater beyond just do you want like 3D or Dolby, at most, or do you want your seat to recline? No, yes, yes. The Amtrak quiet car for movie theaters. I do not think it's right or fair to ask people to not express themselves in a movie that they're this excited about, let people have fun at the movie.

if people find that distracting and don't want it, maybe the theaters should have like a quiet car equivalent of like a different kind of moviegoing experience. I think we need to give people more choices. But I was like really interested that my response was not like, well, yeah, tell everyone to be quiet because I am sort of like, why are people always so loud at movies? But I think it's amazing that people are sitting down

and they're excited to sing and cheer. And like I think it's kind of sad to make people feel like they shouldn't do that. I feel similarly, but I just want to flip the instead of opt into quiet opt into loud quiet should be the default not like silent okay but just like generally if I'm on an Amtrak

quiet car and someone makes us sound I think decorum at the movie theater decorum at any theater should be like relatively quiet sort of don't make your don't infringe and other people's viewing experiences.

I do think, and I believe they are already planning to do this, there should be just legions of sing-along wicked screenings. You know what I mean? I've been to sing-along sound of music screenings. Like, that is like, it's so fun. Everyone is like agreed on a social contract that we're going to be in here and we're going to sing along because we want to. We know the words and they'll put the words on the screen and whatever.

I think they did it for Frozen. Like they've done it for like various like Disney animated movies, something like that. So yes. I actually think day one, they should have, like, sort of similar to like 2D, 3D or whatever, they should have been as many sing-along options as non. But I don't think that like, and if you want to like murmur sing your favorite song, but it's just sort of like, if you're belting in the theater, I do not pay to hear you. I pay to hear Cynthia and Ariana sing.

Like, what are you doing? This is what stressed me out. And this is, I would never do this at, like, a musical concert. But this is what stresses me out about, like, I'm so in favor of the fact that the Ares Tour exists. But every single video I've ever seen from the Ares Tour is someone on their cell phone with like a million people screaming around them. And you can't hear Taylor. And I'm like, that would actually irritate me. I think they're having a great time and I love that for them.

I should not introduce myself into that environment because it would not be for me. I can't comment on the concert going experience. I feel like that I can't actually remember. I feel like the last concert I saw might have been like Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan. I was going to say Bob Dylan. That's so funny. I mean, I have seen Bob Dylan multiple times in concert and I have not been able to discern a word he was singing once. But that had less to do with the crowd and more to do with my guy Bob.

And like at a concert, yeah. Yeah. The movie theater, again, there should be sing along. I think people should be allowed to do it. I think to your point, I think we're saying the same thing. You should have a choice. You should be allowed. I just don't think that like the minority should be.

It's like when people are like, well, if you're going to look at your phone, like, now, they used to do those like promos before movies. So they're like, don't look at your phone. And I'm like, don't look at your phone. Now they're like, if you're going to look at it, I think this is in front of Deadpool and Wolverine. I forget where they're like, just look at it like underneath your jacket or something. I was like, what? Put your phones away. That I feel strongly.

Stop eroding the line. It's so distracting when the glow of the phone starts. Stop dissolving the line between civilized society and complete anarchy. But like, there should be like. There should be offerings like, yeah, because I heard someone say, like, if you don't like sing along, singing along, you should just stream it at home. I'm like, opposite, you should be the one at home. Not I.

But also, I think things that I like that theaters do nowadays that I really enjoy is like they'll do like movies for new parents where like the lights are kind of up and the sound is down so you could bring your baby to the theater if you like can't get a sitter but you don't want to not be a moviegoer anymore. They do these like, you know, kid friend, like small child friendly screenings. I love that. Like I love that that exists. And so like I went to one sort of by accident. But like it was just like a bunch of moms just sort of like bounce walking their babies around the screening. And I was just sort of like, I love that this exists. So like those things should exist. Yeah. But it. theater. We should be quiet and our phone should be away. We should stop eating cellophane to that lady who was behind me at the

I do believe everybody should open their snacks at the beginning of the movie. But I also think the movie theater needs to help us more cup holders in the arms of our chairs, more pockets for snacks. That way you can have multiple things. Now I see this again as a person who likes to buy like no fewer than four to five things for every, not all of us, every movie, but do a five course meal if that's in a little, but I do agree that you should, you should be supported in your needs. Okay. Because if I only have two cup holders and I'm not going to put like, a food on any surface. Surface at a movie theater. Like, I wish that much like a united flight, they were handing out like little wet wipes for the scenes. Well, you travel with them. Do you not?

I mean, boy, I think honestly, when I go to a movie, I'm just like the second I get home, I will be watching this happen and showering. So I feel like, if I had some more to go after, I would have to go. I'm sure this exists, but I feel like, but I don't usually have plans. You travel with like a somewhat capacious bag. So I feel like, unless you're wearing your like, you're like, whatever you call a fanny bag. But like I feel like there has to be some sort of like tray table I can get you that like folds up and put it in your bag and you like unfolded. And it's got just like all the like it's got all your little like lunchable like little things.

I love this. I don't know. Your sour patch watermelons out. I'm in. It worries me a little bit for like my future that I think you're just. describing the like hover chairs for the blob people in wally or he could just like strap me in in front of my screen and like put my feed in front of me uninterested if I'm being if I'm being honest um god so reputation and propaganda the evenings that everyone should enjoy um okay I want to

skip to this next part because we are running a little long and I do need you to name a bunch of anonymous thighs. So I want to talk about the idea of what I'm calling unabashed emotionality and girlhood. So mentioned the Ares Tour, Barbie. We've already mentioned those things. And I think this communal aspect of watching this film really just sort of unlocked something. I think a lot of us are just like really thirsty for this like idea of like not just community, but community and an idea of like unabashedly enjoying something or just surrendering

yourself to emotion, crying in wicked. Crying what Mallory describes her snack tray future also, but like crying inside of wicked as like, um, as this, as this owed to unabashed emotionality and, and, and obviously everyone's welcome at the wicked screening. I had a lot of guys at my wicked screening. I'm not saying this is a thing for women, like, at all. But it is like female coded, the idea of musicals and female friendships and a lot of pink and wicked and all this sort of stuff like that.

But the idea that like everyone is just embracing it and enjoying it and understanding how nourishing it can be to just be sort of like unabashedly excited or unabashedly romantic. And like I just want to I just want to

pay homage to like Steven Schwartz amazing. He's been a legend for a million years. years. One of the moments I cried while watching Wiccan, one of the few moments I cried while watching Wiccan was they, Steven Schwartz, Deena and Kristen have cameos in the movie. My theater went. Oh, bananas. Bananas. But also in that same sequence, Winnie Holdsman has a little cameo as like one of the town people are like, he must be a wizard. And then Steven Schwartz has a cameo as like the,

the guard on the door with the mustache who's like, let him in. When I saw Woody Holtzman, who created one of the greatest television shows ever, my so-called life, which is in itself an ode to Jordan Catalano. But like, to your point, I know that's a joke, but also just allowing space for young Claire Daines, as Angela Chase, to swoon over undeserving Jordan Catalano, whom among us didn't.

As I believe I've said on the pod before, my first sex dream was about doing. I mean, no. At least that I remember. But like my so-called life, too pure to live long on our airwaves, but like was such a a celebration of and like Claire Daines became increasingly

famous throughout her career as our number one on-screen crier. Like, Angela Chase is someone who just like feels everything profoundly and celebrating that is something that my so-called life did and something that Winnie Holtsman, like, I'm just so thrilled that Winnie Holtsman has like wicked money. Like that makes me really happy. I'm just like, that lady is rolling in wicked money and I am thrilled for her. But like, that she took a lot of that and put it, that sentimentality and to be unembarrassed

of your sentimentality to allow young women to allow a. Elfaba to feel like, despite the many cocky, wonderful grins that Johnny Bailey as Hero is sending her way, she's like, but I'm out of the running. I am not that girl and I will never be someone that he looks at that way. Like, that is just not who I am. And then she just sort of like swoones and size and he might as well have Jordan Catalan leaned against a locker. You know what I mean? Whatever the Shiz University version of a locker is. So like, I just love that this thing that when he Holtzman curated in the 90s,

obviously not the only person to do it, but like has become this mass entertainment, wicked. Yeah. Again, the era's tour,

Barbie, like all of this stuff is just like, you know, there were, we all lived for the era where we were supposed to feel embarrassed about it. And the fact that this

is just like something that everyone's experience together is just incredibly important to me. I, well, well said. I second in in full. It's like,

You know, we've talked about this a little bit before, but it's, I really have been thinking about this a lot the last couple of years. Like, you know, I think for me personally, like, I've always been emotional. And like, I think that as a young woman in sports media at the start of my career, I felt like I really had to like tamp that down. And so, like, one of the most incredible parts of, you know, doing this pod with you. And, like, when Jason and I started doing. in binge mode together, and I would like be, I would just feel so deeply about something and then feel like that was like okay, right? Both like in the process of recording it, but then in how, you know, the audience, like, would receive it and really like want to share in that. They love that about you. It's like, it's honestly been like a transformative thing in my life. So like then, you know, the last few years seeing that really like playing out at scale for so many different people, I have not gone to in an era's concert. But I have.

I'm watching all of the people who are doing that and making bracelets for each other and sharing it with different generations of people in their lives. And it's just like, what a, you know, society is so grim and dark and fucked in so many respects. And then to like have these slivers of shared joy and just like moments where it feels totally okay to like be yourself and say if something made you sad or say if something made you happy is feels more necessary than ever. And like a real gift when you find people who like want to share that with you and make it like a safe space for you to do that whenever it feels like true and right. So, you know, one of the moments in the movie that I really loved was like the Oz Dust, the club in sequence for this reason because like it's not just that that emotion was so raw and real in terms of the mockery and the shame and then that life raft, right? Glinda going to join Alphaba. But it was that it was so public and like to be able to have such a raw and real and intense response in front of other people and it feel for a minute like that was like,

you weren't like how would you make it through that? And then to actually come out stronger on the other side because it was a shared thing. I think it's just a really important thing for like everybody who goes to see the movie to get to watch and witness. then obviously they go right from that into like bonding in a more quiet and private way. But that felt that felt so intentional that like that crucible is public. There are things that this, you know, this two hour and 40 minute movie of Act 1 of a musical did to expand the story. And, you know, there's plenty of places you can find people going over that in granular detail.

But I think the choice to expand the Oz Duss ballroom sequence into this like lengthy, beautiful dance. It's very intentional and they like have talked about how important that was for them to nail. But I also just think that like I was just stunned by that. I mean like the performance. Okay. Let's go back. I skipped this section accidentally. Let's go back to it to Galinda, Alphabet and Fiera.

And Fiora, why not if we want to? But like to Cynthia, Ariana and Johnny Bailey, our favorite. Icons all. Yeah. And also on like on the musical nerd front, I have had to suffer through so many musicals. few years where they have like auto tuned people to hell because they got people who are performers but not singers. But obviously like Cynthia Revo is an absolute stage legend. Johnny Bailey also. I saw him in company in London years ago with Pallupon. And like, and Ariana Grande is amazing in this. And so like,

when I left my press screening and I had been hearing for a long time that Ariana Grande was like amazing in this. And I left my press screening and I was standing, I was walked behind to people who hate Ariana Grande, but loved her in this movie. And they're like, oh, my God, I hate her so much, but she's so good in this. Okay, let's just like, let's just like, let's just like, we'll go back to hating her in the next thing she does. But she's like so good. And I was just like, yeah, even the haters have to say, Ariana Grande, it's incredible in this movie. She was amazing. She's so good. So do you have any like favorite outstanding moments that you want to call out for this trio? Um, I have the overhead shot of Glenda.

like sliding along on the floor. Yeah. Absolutely killed me. Just genuinely incredible. I thought she, I really, I mean, I thought all three of them were just unbelievable, like, start to finish. I mean, yeah, Defying Gravity was, you know, that was my favorite. That was my favorite. That was really amazing.

I did love the little, the little, the little lion, the sweet little lion cubs. with the Fierro and Elfie, the touching of the cheek. That was all very sweet. Yeah. What else? What were some other highlights? I mean, it was all really great. It was.

What was your, like after non-defying gravity? What was your second favorite musical number? Because it feels like that was just like in another strategy. Yeah. And they were like, okay, I will allow one. And I have a few. But I'll allow one critique to seep into this celebration of what Wicked has done, which is that there were like a few moments where they were like, we know you love popular.

We're about to do popular. We know that you love popular. We're going to, you know, and so like defying gravity being like 15 minutes long because I kept breaking it up was like a thing. But for me, I'm surprised seeing in a second time, the wizard and I just like really got to me. Like I love popular. What is this feeling is a wonderful song? Dancing Through Life is a great song. But The Wizard, in terms of, like, I want songs, a staple of the, of the, you know, Disney

anime and musical genre, like, I just thought, and she's just her. And she's just wonderful. And my theater went crazy for it. Yeah, I just, I really, I think because I've heard, what is this feeling in popular and defying gravity? so many times that like they feel like they sort of belong to the every to the culture. Whereas Wizard and I, again, like a, you know, a big song from this musical, but like that feels like it belongs to her in this movie, in this moment, you know?

Love that. I thought she was so good. And her just like running around like on the, I just like the wall, her running around on the field, you know, just sort of like, just like opening herself entirely to the enormity of her hopes. and wants. The potential. Yeah.

The possibility. But then also just that slimmer on the stone of doom and the prophecy and what awaits and the sense of the unknown, but just, yeah, the boundless hope too. Yeah. And they did this cool thing that they also do in the stage musical when she's under the, you know, the pieces of colored glass and it reflects on her face and it like washes out the green, which they do with like gels on the stage. I thought that that was a really brilliant way to bring like a bit of the stage magic to the film itself.

Yeah. Just great. Great stuff. Okay. So we talked about emotionality. We talked about the performances. Johnny Bailey was just wonderful. Super. He's elite. Truly elite. Incredible stuff. Wonderful.

Which stuff go. Now that we've seen all of the 2024 wish properties. We've only seen a couple of episodes of doon prophecy but we you know what's in the water there how would we rank them here are our entries dune part two dune prophecy agatha all along acolyte remember accolade it's been so long it's come back around and charming okay wicked Pavlovia i couldn't help it yeah wicked bad monkey don't worry about it if you haven't seen it don't worry about it but i had to watch her prestige so i'm putting it in the

here. And then House the Dragon, our Bay Bay-Ballis Rivers, of course. Are we ranking it specific, like in terms of overall quality of each of the shows, just the which stuff inside of the productions. The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. I can't believe that was only a few months ago. Remember we used to like record a studio together?

I do. Three times a week. It was wonderful. I miss you. Over that time you did, you dropped your chapstick in the bathroom. Yeah, it was horrible. It rolled under the sink It's dead to you A source of actual torment But then you gave me your spare chapstick And that's how I knew you were endgame for me

That's how I knew you were the one In my moment of need You gave me a chapstick And that's the truest stuff there is Boy, um What do you take me through your ranking here? This is really hard Which stuff goes inside of all of these

Yeah You're doing a top three Are you going to rank them start to finish? I'm going to five Okay. We can just retire bad monkey. It's okay. Haven't seen it.

Which stuff only? Yeah. House the Dragon number one. Alice Rivers. Really good. Yeah. Number two, Agatha all along. Okay.

Number three. Wicked. Number four, Doom Part 2. Mm-hmm. Number five. Acolyte. Yeah. You're going to swap dream prophecy for Acculate?

Okay. Yeah. Otherwise, I'll co-assign the list. Okay. Great. For the which stuff go only. Yeah. I like it.

I like it. The definitive which stuff go ranking that we just decided to come up with here at the end of a two-hour pod that we said was going to be like. Here's the question. When we do our top moments of the year pod, like at the end of the year, an annual tradition, we look back on all of our favorite moments from the stories we covered, how many of your choices do you think will be which stuff go a month? 10 out of 10? 10 out of 10. It could happen.

Three minimum. Probably more, but three minimum. Three seems I take the over. This is we're doing spoiler stuff go. We're doing it really quickly. We don't have a ton to say about this. We just wanted to have the option too. And then...

Also, as previously mentioned, I can't remember the musical. And then please... Yeah, so I just put a bunch of spoilers in this document for you. You're welcome. And then please stick around. For something that may or may not get cut out of the podcast, it's called name, that, bye. All right. So you can skip past this if you don't want any Wicked Part 2 spoilers.

But with whatever whips, tendrils of memory that you had about the way that Wicked ends. I actually did remember all of this once I saw it in the dock. Yeah. I was relieved that I was capable of retaining this massive, these massive plot points. Are there any Easterings or forward-looking references that you most enjoyed in watching part one act one. Obviously my cowardly lion. Really just everything on the scarecrow, Tin Man, cowardly lion front.

I think that's all set up quite well. If you're listening to this and you don't know, but you wanted to listen to spoiler section anyway, I know you sickos exist out there. Oh, yeah. Fierro is the scarecrow. Bach, they gave him the last name Woodman just to tip you off in this movie. Bach, he of the curly red hair. is the tin woodman.

And then, yeah, the little lion cup you meet is the cowardly lion. That one who has the least, because, like, fuck as Tin Woodsman who gets mad at her because she is part of, but I would argue, not at all responsible for turning him into a tin man. Right. Like recruits the cowardly lion by being like, you remember, she scared you that day. I'm like, that bitch rescued you, cowardly lion. What are you talking about? Come on.

Come on. Yeah. Should someone need it to observe the why, then why is he trembling? Yeah. The cage. Very sad. Sweet little lion cub. I think for me, and there's a lot.

There's a lot of little moments. Some subtle, some not so subtle. Her telling Fierro to get stuffed is a top of the heap for me. The stuff with the ruby slippers. Glinda knocking together the ruby slippers in popular, which are not actually. the slippers. It's the silver slippers that are the actual slippers in part two. Anything else we want to talk about? I guess the stuff, I mean, I think, I thought actually they handled the stuff with the wizard being her dad really well because like, if you care

to look for it, it is pretty obvious. It's just like his hair is the silhouette of his head. It just pretty apparently. Also sounds like Jeff Goldblum at the beginning. But, you know, if you're someone who prefers not to think about story on that level and you're just sort of like dancing your life and watching, you know, this film on the surface. It could still, I guess, be a twist for you. And the, you know, when he sighs and look at her as says a father and you're like, okay. But yeah, I thought, I don't know, I thought this stuff was really fun. I think, I think the scarecrow stuff is among my favorite because like, this has always been true of the Fieroes, the whole, like, um, life is painless for the brainless. Like all the, like, all the, like, like, all the,

lyrics from dancing through life and then like his his movements inside of that dance um and then every stage fiero and also this fiero um do like the scarecrow pose at one point you know and there's the point where he's like backlit and sort of like leaning his arms out but right before he tells glendo you're good um you know that's like to give us little scarecrow to you so yeah i don't know i just wanted to like talk about stuff and i guess my question based on like like what we know happens. Act two, act two in any theater show is shorter than Act one. In this particular show, it is darker than Act one.

There are fewer famous songs in it. There's for good, which is like one of the best songs. But like there are fewer memorable songs in Act two. Steven Schwartz has said that they've written two new songs for the second movie. They have to expand the story in some way. But I am curious how part two is going to, it's the same way that like we've kind of been talking about like the third Dune movie. We're like, are people going to hang with Dune Messiah after seeing Dune part one and

part two? Are you going to hang with Wicked Part 2 after seeing part one? Because it's like, it's a tougher sit. Right. Everything that happens in that thing. So do you have any qualms about that or are you just sort of like, I choose not to worry about it. It's going to be great.

No, I love it. It makes it, to me, makes it feel like more of a journey, you know? So I like that and I think that people will find it. rewarding and, you know, emotionally intense, but then there's a lot of payoff, right? For everything that awaits with Nessa Rose, we have our discoveries below puddles and trap doors. So there's a lot of heartache, but also a lot of joy and, like, positive surprises about the lasting nature of some sort of connection. So I think I would be surprised if people didn't respond well to that. And I think in part because of what you said earlier, like the difference between maybe

something like this and Barbie of people bringing their attachment to the story with them. So there's just so much more familiarity. And I wonder to like for maybe people who came to a wicked part one, not having seen the stage production or, you know, read the book or anything else, like how many people will want to go in dark and preserve that and how many people will like try to consume it in some other way while they're waiting the next year? and just try to soak up all the wicked that they can. So yeah, I'm not worried about that at all. How about you?

Do you think the tonal shift is going to be drawing? I'm just curious. I'm curious how they're going to handle it. I'm curious in what direction that they will expand the story. Like, are we going to get more in the book? There's this really great scene between Dorothy and Elphaba at the end, where Dorothy is essentially there to apologize for what happened to Nesser Rose. You know, like there's just like.

Yeah. So I don't, you know, I can see, you know, the stage show decided to like never show Dorothy. And this is just showing us like the back of Dorothy. And so I can see a version of this where they're like, we don't really want to get into the Dorothy of it all really in a meaningful way. But I could also see a version where they do. They haven't announced that they've cast anyone though. So I can't imagine that it's like actually going to go that way.

Are they going to expand on like the Bacca and Nessa Rose stuff? That might be better than like to be more than just one scene. You know, I've, I've, I've, some questions about it all. But I'm excited to find out. I'm, I'm excited for people to be exposed to more musical theater, obviously. Should we take a year for you? Which is and musicals everywhere. Wild swing from musical theater.

To name that, I guess, two things I apparently love. You are right. I mean, it's so easy. No, no, no, I mean, no, don't say that. Okay. Steve cut you out of saying. It's so easy in that way. I will say this.

I intentionally did not try to trick you with anything. I intentionally tried to make it worse when I can't get any of them. But we can blame my failing eyesight and failing mind. You're allowed to ask three questions if you're stuck on anything. And some options are like, I don't say all of these are characters, except for one is just like a person. but you'll see why. But all the rest are fictional characters. And then you could ask like, what decade is this thigh from?

Like, is this a movie or television? Like, stuff like that, you know? Okay. Okay. How many are there, five? There's ten. We're going to go so fast. Okay.

We're going to go so fast. And then if it goes slow, we'll cut it out. It's fine. Incredible. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay. We're going to start with name that thigh.

That's definitely. I'm sure that's Connell from normal people. That is Connell from normal people. I know the rugby outfit well. I told you. I didn't make this to trick you. No, I was Googling that literally yesterday. So, not quite literally not I was Googling Conall, Normal People rugby shorts yesterday.

So nothing could be more top of mind. Why was I doing that? Mind your own business. Mind your own business. I intentionally put, also, I intentionally put little pieces of costume in here so that you're not just like looking at mad flesh. Right? Like, Mm-hmm.

Sad. Speaking of man flush, it's not just men in this. It's not just men in this. Okay, we're at equal opportunity. Can you name that thigh? Oh, I'm getting a reflection. Wait. Hold it back.

Okay. Uh-huh. Is that yellow the outfit? Yes. Is it like, is that yellow. Yellow dress. Blue. Like, belt.

Belt. No idea. You want to ask any questions? Already on the second one, I have a little clue. I got Connell and now it's going to be over for the next nine. Do you have any questions? What fictional universe is this from? Would it help if I know that?

Yeah, Steve, get in here. Okay, yeah. Steve, get in here. Let's tag team it. Steve. Let's tag team it. That is Rebecca Ferguson in Mission Impossible. That is Rebecca Ferguson in Mission Impossible.

Yeah. I'm usually too lost. See, this is where it's going to be revealed that I'm not maybe as much Right, guys. A thigh guy as we thought, because when Rebecca Ferguson is on screen, I'm just, I'm staring into the green of her eyes. I'm skipping this next one because it's just going to be too hard to see, genuinely. I had a really hard time finding this, but I'll just, I'll give you the bigger one, the, like, the pan out. Just to let you know that in my memory, this pose was all thigh when, in fact, it's really mostly me.

But I just want to shout out Mbaku here. It was really flashing a little bit of knee. Great. And not really full thigh. So I couldn't really get a good, like, zoom in on it. Okay. Okay. This one is a throwback to, like, the 90s.

Oh, boy. I had no hope of this. And it is a lady. Steve, you are welcome to help if you can. 90s television. Zina? That is Zena warrior princess. Yeah.

All right. I'm proud of myself. You got it. Yeah. I did get it. Here she is in all of her. Guy, glory. Okay.

Wonderful choice. That's a great one. Thank you. Yeah. Side-bye. All right. Here we go. Oh, and I did, with this one slight exception.

That was Namor. I only needed to see that for 0.2 seconds to know. With this one exception, I did no bathing suits because I was just like, but this is his costume. You literally didn't even hold that up all the way. And I knew that was Namor. No, you don't need to apologize. I just like that one.

I stayed lives. That is Namor, the submarine, the submarine from Black Panther. Got that one. Yep. Okay. You're doing well. Sorry that I stymied you with rec. I thought you were a wife, Rebecca Ferguson.

Okay, this is. I just stare into her beautiful eyes. and her freckled nose. I don't see thighs. I see features and souls only. Okay, this is the only one that's not a fictional character. Okay. It is just merely a person you and I both know.

Like actually no? Well, no. We wish. I'm just seeing like crotch. I don't see any legs. Can you hold it back further? Move it back. Okay. Oh, boy. Let's see here. Let me think. Okay. Kilt. Who could this be? So this is a, is this David Tenet? It's not. Because I'm thinking Scottish. It is a Scottish person. Yeah. Okay. Is it? Is it shared? So the Kilt is just straight favorite of ours.

The Kilt. Is it Ewan McGregor? Yeah. Okay. I just had to go through our. two great Scottish lines in some order. And I went with Tenet first and then I got to you. It's my favorite photo of you and McGregor. I had it on my wall as a kid. It is, let me see the full picture. It is him with chicken for Vanity Fair. Wonderful stuff. His knees are all muddy for no reason. Yeah, they are muddy. Yeah. Well, okay. Yeah. Okay. Plenty reasons. Yeah. Okay. This one is the one that I feel the least comfortable about, but there was no other good angle on this one. Yeah. And I blame. Not me for that. Okay. Oh my God. Boy, let's see.

Okay, so am I looking at like a black leather skirt? Yeah. If you want to call that a skirt, you can, charitably. I don't know that's black. Milky thighs. Blue? Blue? Oh, it looks a little different with you panning out here.

Hmm. Sorry, I don't know how my... By my screen, I'm filling the screen when I do this, but you're like... That's just way too close. Oh, man. There's a little bit of rope right here. Does that help you? Is this Wonder Woman?

This is a Wonder Woman. Yeah. Okay. Got a little lasso there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Really hard to find a...

I was like, close crop. Shot of her thighs that doesn't make you feel deeply uncomfortable. Close crop. I'm loving everything about this. Okay, this is an iconic... Fantastic. I don't know if you're familiar with this property, actually, from the 80s, but this is just an iconic thigh situation. Wait, so hold it, move back and out a little.

Huh. Okay, so these are short shorts. We look to be like behind maybe a bike or a... It's a car. Red car. Okay. I have no idea what this is. Steve, do you know this one?

1980s TV icon. Is that Bert Reynolds? Oh, you're very close. This is from a show television show because he said TV icon. A genre show? Action adventure.

1980s King of the short shorts. Ooh. This one was like a swing. I wasn't sure if you're going to get that. Tell me. This is such a good photo.

This is Tom Sellecka's Magnum P.I. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Just like you to look at it. Oh. weird. The side mirror looked like a bicycle scene. Huh. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Did not know that one.

Okay. But now I do and I'm glad to. Two more to go. This one is also from the 80s. I have two examples for the same actor. Two different. If you don't get this one, I'm going to show you the next one. Okay. The 80s ones are going to be tough. All right. See, very greasy thigh. this character in this film is perpetually crouching never not crouching okay I feel like I should know this but I don't let me show you the other one

it's also from the 80s but it's a little bit more iconic oh my god I just love this there you go oh my god wait hold it a little closer I'm sorry this is two of cinema's most favorite famous

famous eyes This is, this is, that's risky business, right? Yeah, this is Tom Cruise and risky business. Of course. Yeah, I just wanted to, the hold it in closer was a bit of a dick joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one I knew. That one I recognized.

It didn't actually recognize the first one. Also, Tom Cruise and legend. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did not clock the from behind shot of that one, but of course, risky business I am quite familiar with. Yeah. Last but at least.

Wonderful stuff. Oh, my God. And the last one is your reward for all your good work. So it's just for you. Thank you for this. I just want to say thank you for this. Where'd you get my private photo of me on Harrison Ford? Oh my God.

Great stuff. Okay. I have prepared a surprise. That is Daryl Hannah, obviously. I'm sorry. Yes. That's a play runner. Sorry.

Play runner. Hold on. When I say I've prepared, I didn't mean I actually had it open, but let me, I've prepared a. I have absolutely. Hold on. Google Starz Algorithm is an absolute shambles after that. And I have never been more... Did you do this on your work computer?

I've never been more embarrassed. No, that one's waiting an update. I've never been more embarrassed in my life than when I'm zooming in on some of those photos. I thought... I do not know that the thighs was a me thing. I thought this was a shared thing. So I... It can be.

Okay. It can be. All right, Joe, I decided to surprise you with a little version of my own name that thigh. I only have a few for you. I don't have 10. Are you ready to begin? Yeah. Okay.

Oh, no. Are these all athletes? Is that an athlete? No. No. Are they all, are they all Paul Meskel? They're all Paul Meskel. I seem to have accidentally deleted one in attempting to.

Oh, no. Where did the last one go? I have to bring it back. Where did it go? Well, I somehow deleted the last one, which was the best one. This is a tragic truth. Just that's not a tech, check,

miss up. Absolutely. Oh, here it is. I got it back. I got it back. I got it back. Yes. This is, of course,

the recent. Yes. Yeah, you know that one. Speaking of Namor, who you got in just like a snap, when I was looking for those thighs in particular, the main images I found were attached to an article where the actor, Tenochua talked about how the CGI diminished his bulge in those,

trunks and I don't remember us talking about that, but I believe it. Those were some short tight shorts. And they just had to like minimize the impact. Okay. That was name that thigh. Tremendously good radio sequence. Hey, these are these episodes are available to watch on Spotify or the reverse YouTube. Let this be your incentive. Bad babies everywhere. Thank you to Mallory Rubin for being exactly the human that she is. And I love you badly. Brightened my day. I cherish you. We get to Steve Olman for his, uh, Pinch it on the Rebecca Ferguson by entry.

Thank you to Stefanos Sanchez for his work on this incredible very important video episode and also to Alaisanaris for her work on the video for this episode. Thank you to our Juna Rangipal for his production work here, there, and everywhere. And to show me

and Dineran on the social. We'll be back sometimes soon. I'm actually not making a promise right now because it's a holiday week. So I'm just going to keep the loose. There you go. Loosey goosey. But we will be back.

And we wish you a happy holidays. And go see Wicked if you haven't. You'll have a great time. And we'll see you soon. See yourself. Bye.