House of R - ‘Lanterns’ Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into "OutKast," the third episode of ‘Lanterns.’ They talk about the reveal of John’s origin story, his parents’ deal with the Guardians, John’s interview, and more! (00:00) Intro(03:49) Opening snapshot(38:10) John’s interview begins(01:00:16) The Ring chooses John Sr.(01:11:59) Bernadette makes a bargain with the Guardians(01:21:13) John’s Gray Wolf mission(01:27:50) Bernadette and John Sr. form a plan(01:40:16) Lianna inserts the Hal wedge(01:45:12) John learns his path(01:48:11) Shooting lessons(01:50:01) John’s long walk home(01:53:59) John learns the truth(01:58:28) John’s discharge(02:05:27) John’s test arrives(02:10:00) Junior(02:11:31) Rapid-fire theory and comics spoilers corner Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducer: Carlos ChiribogaProduction Assistant: Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of Our. Yeah. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today to remind me that we come into existence alone and we die the same. That's not true. We're together. It's beautiful.

It's Joanna Robinson, the guardian of my universe. Oh, wow. Wow. If only I had that Laura Linny Riz, I could dream. Boy. Very hip and on fashion. bleached blonde kind of buzz cut look. It's bus cut season right now. Not in Lara Lenny form, but when we get the brief, I was like, what are you talking about?

I was transformed in the driveway into a guardian. I was like, damn. What other bus cuts are you eyeing right now? They're everywhere. Your F1 drivers? No, they all have kind of flowing locks and curls because they're spending a lot of their time on yachts. But a lot of the Instagram haircut reels that I receive tell me that it's buzz cut season. Well, you don't send me any of your haircut. I'll start. Okay, content. Listen, we're here to talk about lanterns. Yes.

Episode three, we are going to dive deep into episode three outcast, and we will hit some programming reminders and everything else. Right after this. All right, programming reminders, what are they? We will be doing lanterns on Mondays throughout the season. That's the goal. There's going to be a week later in the season where I'm out of town. We're figuring out of maybe one week that things are a little different,

but that's the goal Monday throughout the season. Also, it's Buffy time. Buffy Season 5, Part 1, later this week. And then part 2 later next week. Can't wait. You're almost done. I am less almost done than I should be sitting here on Monday. That's okay. I am almost done. You're almost done, though. I am almost done. I have eight episodes still to watch the first time and then the first, however many we haven't decided, probably 10 a second time. But what a wonderful way. It's been a few days, honestly. I'm thrilled. Can't wait. It's been just an incredible time with our guy Spike.

A rich text, as always. Puffy Season 5 is fantastic. Spoiler warning? Yeah. Okay. So for all of the DCU, or DCEU, if you prefer, the DCAU, that's the animated universe. Comics. Yes.

Though, again, we will put things that we find particularly touch-shed. in a little spoiler section at the end. We don't have a ton today because this is largely show invented, you know, background lore for a character. But we do have some theory emails that we will put in that little section at the end. Wonderful. And we will get to all of that later and you will have a warning. You will know that it is coming.

That's right. But that's my spoiler warning. Also follow us on social, like and subscribe, etc., etc. At House of Our Pod. Hobbitons and Dragons. Gmail.com. We got a ton of email. emails today.

The advice is always open. Yeah. Just fantastic stuff. Have we started to get buff emails, season five? Yeah. But the buff emails are just... And I mean, over the last five months. The buff emails are eternal.

They just trickle in. Yeah. But if you guys have more pointed season five emails that you would like to send, we're recording on Thursday. So you've got some time. That's right. Yeah. You do have a few days.

You have a few days. Just like I have a few days. To watch eight and then ten more episodes. Yeah. You got it. Done again. I'm excited. Yeah.

It's fun. Any other programming reminders, spoiler warnings, follow along messages, anything of that nature? I don't think so. Great. It's time for the opening snapshot. Okay. Episode 3, Outcast, 54 minutes long, directed by Stephen Williams, Lost, Watchman, written by Vanessa Baden, Kelly. Do we want to hit our opening snapshot emails first?

Do we want to give our table setting take on the episode first? What order makes the most sense here? I want to hear what you think before I want to hear what our lovely listeners have to say. Fantastic. I really enjoyed this episode. of TV has just been great so far. It is fascinating to me through three episodes of an eight episode season. Every episode is different, not just in its focus, but in its structure, right? So we talked about this after episode one. Okay, we were in multiple timelines. We moved through

the decades. Is that going to be the case throughout? And then when we did our episode two pod, we talked about the real boldness of taking our two primary figures. gears in the story. And splitting them up when so much of the focus and thrust of the of the pilot, of the premiere of the pilot pilot was oriented around their dynamic. Right. So that was bold. And then we end episode two on this huge Hal Sinestro moment and we're like, what is about to happen? Pause. And we pull back into a John Stewart origin episode that is rooted not only in John's history, but in John's family's history, his father, we learn a ton about his mother and his mother's guiding hand in his life here. There's a lot of guardians lore here as well. That's a little,

a little bit more for us to parse and assess as we see the interactions that the Lara Linney character, Leana, has with John, with Bernadette, et cetera. And then, boy, the closing of this episode, we were right back into the deep tension. but now with a more understanding of what has fueled that, not only this trainee relationship, but the history that John's father, John Sr. had with the ring, chosen. And then the ring went to a lot of other people too. And then how that's fascinating, but also John's dishonorable discharge from the military,

the halal tie there. So seeing and understanding how many points of their lives, have intersected in some way. And then, you know, what this episode did thematically to parse, you know, we've talked about a lot of the differences between these characters, right? The difference in age, the difference in the relationship to the ring. And this episode is deeply rooted in race and the experience of being a black man in America, a black family in America.

And I thought that that was explored really poignantly. We are two white people, you know, and so we will do our best to talk about that thoughtfully. I also just thought the performances in this episode were great. And yeah, I really liked it. So I'm curious to see what, moving forward... Yeah. The structural intent is of every episode. Like, is every episode in this season going to feel a little bit different?

Or now will we settle into four, five, six, seven, eight, something that feels a little bit more similar week to week? You know, we talked back in the premiere about how the, this season on teaser that we got at the end of the pilot, had a lot of footage that we hadn't seen in pre-ce and facial hair, the goatee that we at least from the first episode are associating with the 2006 timeline based on how that ended. We haven't seen that material yet. So does that mean that we're not going to actually settle into episodes being very similar

in how they're structured, but we will move into the future timeline? I have no idea. But I'm excited to find out. What did you think of this episode, Joe? And also, how delighted are you to be back with your guy, Stephen Williams, one of your favorite directors. I do love Stephen Williams. I think he's incredible. And it was really fun to watch the official pod this morning and the way that they talked about it. And in general, I would say, listening to Stephen Williams talking about directing this episode, listening to Vanessa Bod and

Kelly talk about writing this episode, listening to host that podcast, who is a black man in his experience, like listening to and listening to our pals, the men and I boys talk about it. Like, you know, the way this episode resonated on a personal experience. experience level for a lot of those people for Aaron Pierre as well, et cetera, makes me appreciate it more than I would in a vacuum because if something matters to people, it matters to me. So that matters. I do think that I have some, like, structural questions about this episode. Flashback episodes are tricky, can be tricky.

And in terms of, like, the momentum of the season, I don't mind having a John Flashback episode here, but thinking, you know, obviously, if we have Stephen Millie and. who, you know, really cut his teeth on Lost, and, you know, Damon Lindelof is, like, working on this show. Then we're thinking about the way in which Lost, which really revolutionized the way that Flashback was used. If you've never seen the television show Lost, nearly every episode has a Flashback. Go watch it. It's wonderful. To a character's backstory. But what that show does with Flashback is there will be, like, some sort of, like,

propulsive action storytelling happening in the present day in the island. Yes. then you will flash to a character in any given week and something about their past that you as a viewer didn't already know that helps you understand the decisions they're making in real time there. Okay? It's the best. It is the best.

This is a slightly different dynamic. And again, like on the official pod, they were talking about why flashing between this job interview with Laura Linney's character, this like, you know, white woman style to look like she's from the 1950s, why a black man sort of proving himself for. this role why that feels emotionally propulsive, I think, to certain people watching this episode. I think cutting between an interview, tell us more about yourself and then telling them about themselves, is slightly less interesting than some of the other flashback. Another reason to have Stephen Williams here, not just for his lost bona fides, but his Watchman bona fides. And we talked

about the fact that, like, Stephen Williams directed the best episode of Watchman, which is a Flashback episode. But that is a like a very artistically ambitious flashback episode where you have Regina King's character sort of like falling through time and everything is sort of blending in this surreal dream space.

So that's a very different kind of way to tell a flashback. But so I think that like and in both that episode that Watchman episode written by the Great Court Jefferson in this episode they very much like say the thing like they're just saying the thing.

and there's something wrong with that at all. But I guess I think I appreciated this episode more than I loved this episode, if that makes sense at the end of the day. And it makes sense that certain things would resonate with different people differently. I did think that Jasmine Seifos Jones, who plays Bernadette, who original Peggy from Hamilton, love her, and Peggy, was fantastic in this episode. Just a really titanic performance. Absolutely.

Unbelievable. I hope, to your point about the distinction in stitching flashbacks throughout maybe an entire season or even series versus concentrating them, I'm curious to see if we get more time with John's parents in the past with these performers because we do know that there are two other performers who have been asked. Older actors. Yeah. Presumably for the future. We've already heard one on the phone, I would have to guess. Maybe. But like, so this takes. takes Jasmine Seafus Jones as Bernadette up through... To 2016. Yeah, so maybe the future cast is 2026. Got it. More fodder, perhaps, then, for spending time there.

Yeah. In the future, or that could be casting for future... There's also older actors who been castes' stories as well. So, good stuff. One of the things, you mentioned the official pod, it was a great, a fantastic episode of the official pod. Also, another great little, you know, just at the end of the episode of Lanterns itself, you know, as HBO does, a few, a few minutes inside the episode.

And one of the things that Vanessa Bette and Kelly said on the inside the episode was John's origin story doesn't exist in the actual comics. And that's really freaking frustrating because I can tell you a million things about Hal Jordan. So we knew that we really wanted to delve into that and give him the proper origin story that every other great superhero gets. You know, totally understand why that would be very important to the creative team of the episode and the series. Here's what I think is so interesting. And a fun thing for fans of John Stewart. a character who means so much to so many people to get to really

spend all of that time in his past. Trying to learn more about the evolution of John Stewart as a character in the comics and where he really became a rock star, which was in the animated series, looking at when he was created, you know, so

Denny O'Neill and Neil Adams, I think, in the early 1970s Create John Stewart as a backup to the backup, right? But I was listening to podcast interview that Danny O'Neill gave right before the first Green Lantern movie came out. So it was really funny to listen to that

because they were all sort of like, Ryan, right? Like they were like kind of excited about it. Anyway. Who wasn't? And then? So he was talking about inventing John Stewart and he was like two white guys in the early 70s

and he was like sort of active in a lot of like social justice movements and he was talking about the things that he was he was activated in but he was like we thought it was important for there to be a black man as as the green lantern um but i didn't feel like and he said this you know this was a real era and we can talk about this a little bit later but like the golden age is silver age the bronze age of comics the bronze age of comics which is when john steward enters uh the era which is early early 1970s of through like 85 uh was a real sort of like social justice movement inside of comics.

And, you know, so they were exploring darker themes and people were like doing drugs and in the Green Lantern Green Arrow team up, which was this sort of like key really popular reinverigrating storyline for Green Lantern. They were like talking about the assassinations of MLK and Bobby Kennedy. Like they were really getting into the political stuff. But what Denny O'Neill has said in multiple interviews is he was like, I never felt like I had an answer. Like something

Something was going terribly wrong in our country is what it felt like. I never felt like I had an answer. But I felt like it mattered to me to put it onto the page that it was happening. It mattered to me that there would be a black green lantern. But I didn't have any answers

or any personal experiences of what it meant to be a black man in the early 1970s. He was like, but what I hoped was that by putting that stuff out there, there would be kids who were reading it and see John Stewart on the page

and they would go up and they would tell the story of like why this mattered or what the answers might be or what the complications might be. And the Bronze Age of Comics is so interesting because it is the first time that, you know, Denny O'Neill who grew up as a fan of comics, the first time that comic book fans generationally could be comic book creators. So thinking about that as like he was a fan of comics, he grew up to be a very consequential comic book creator in the 70s for DC and thinking about the other young people. So thinking about Vanessa growing up

and maybe wasn't the hugest Green Lantern fan in the world but as a fan of story, growing up with the existence of John Stewart, especially as he exploded when they put him on the animated Justice League. And so for a generation of people who weren't even comics readers

but were animated show watchers, that's their Green Lantern, is John Stewart. And that was almost like an incidental thing And we can talk about that a little bit later. But like, so the curiosity about his origin story, coming back to this woman who was working on this show and the entire writer's room and the entire team. But like, this woman who grew up and was like, I am now in a position to fulfill the prompt that sort of Denny O'Neill put out there in the first place of like, I'm going to give you this vessel. She's like, let me fill it, you know? And be frustrated that no one else filled it before me.

Yeah. But like, let me take that. opportunity, which I think is really cool. I love that. And it is one of the amazing things about comic book storytelling as a medium and as a slice of the creative universe. You know, we, certainly in recent years in the superhero fatigue, you know, movie era, sometimes can feel the opposite of that where it's like how many times, how many Batman movies are we going to happen when we watch the Batman. I'm really going to go. This was dynamite. But this is one of the great things about the mantle inside and across the creative universe being passed. And in comic book

storytelling, so many different creators get to return to the same characters and to the same fictional universes and put their mark on it. Right. And that could be about individual perspective and experience. It can be about where the world is at a given moment in time. It can be about how those things inform each other, right? And so that's one of the, you know, there are plenty of people who don't love comic books who are like, man, people have been writing comic books about the same characters for how many decades? Where do you even know where to start? And they live and they die and they die again. Yeah. But that can be part of the joy of it for so many people is not only the evolution across time, but getting to pick your, the book that made you fall in love

with the character, the creator who unlocked something inside of you because of what they unlocked inside of the character. Like it's one of the beautiful things about comic book storytelling and genre storytelling. So it's really fun to see that manifesting here on the screen. What I think is so interesting about the premise of this show and this episode specifically in terms of that job interview concept is the idea of like the ring chooses the lantern. Yeah. Versus the guardians have decided, actually we're not so fond of who the ring is choosing these days.

And I have some notes for the ring, not necessarily on Hal Jordan, but like John Stewart Senior doesn't seem to be an incredibly stable person. So, like, you know, I wouldn't have even picked him as a candidate personally. John Stewart Jr., yes. But John Stewart Sr., I'm like, that guy? That guy was shooting televisions? That's the guy? The guy with the drinking problem?

That's the guy. But he started shooting televisions and developed the drinking problem because of what the ring did. So that was an interesting aspect of the episode, too. In a super soldier serum sort of way, what was always in there and what wasn't. Okay. Of course. This is what Neil Adams said about creating John Stewart as the Land. He says, one of the reasons why I fought so the artist, one of the reasons why I fought so hard to have a black green lantern was I did not want anyone to have any reason to say this character shouldn't exist. The ring went out and sought out the best because John was the best, it gave him the prize and the prize is that he got the job of cleaning up everyone else's mess and he was willing to take it and he wasn't going to have any reward. All he would have is a little gold star in his notebook and he would be a hero. That prize was given once to a white guy and a couple of times to some assholes, but it was given to John Stewart rightly and John Stewart to me is a real hero as opposed to a secondary hero. So this idea that's a idea that.

that like from a, you can't push back on us making a black man, the green lantern, because the ring chooses. And if the ring chose him, then he's worthy. And that's it at the end of the day. And what's so fascinating about the premise that they've set for this show is like, this black man, this version of this black man isn't just chosen. He has to, and you've been, you know, banging this drum from the start, but like, he has to prove it. Yeah. You know, and. And which of those Paths makes you better equipped to actually do the job. Particularly interesting, I think, now to know that because of the conversation between Bernadette and the Guardian and the driveway, you know, they're not just checking in on John Sr. Many of the candidates who had this experience. So like, how many people did the ring seek out who failed the test before it got to how?

That's such an interesting little insight. Or so who's that who's that tall handsome white guy who leaves the interview room before John? walks in. Right. How many candidates were being assessed in this parallel fashion as well. You know what I mean? Like he's he's the trainee, but is there a backup to the trainee? You know, how many contingency plans are there? And how many of them were also being cultivated and assessed over time? Like how much of it is that interview? Cultivated and assessed. So I would say groomed. I mean, you know. We'll get into all of it. I think it's interesting like, you know, when Vanessa in the official podcast and elsewhere is comparing the stewards to, you know, like a Richard Williams.

Yes, Earl Woods and Richard Williams. Right. The Venus and Serena's dad and Tiger Woods' dad were the very interesting comments. But also Joe Jackson, you know, and so it's just sort of like, and she and Stephen were very careful about saying like, hey, before you judge what, you know, like, we actually don't care if you agree with what they did. They just did what they did. And we're interested in presenting the reasons why. Yes. not saying this is the right move to shoot apples off your son's head or something like that. But it's interesting to think about, you know, maybe not the Williams sisters, but certainly I would say Tiger Woods, who's had a very troubled life and Michael Jackson who had a very troubled

life where it's like excellence at what cost. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, it introduces this interesting dramatic tension where it's like, do I want John Stewart to have the ring? Yes, because I like him and I'm rooting for him and all the sort of stuff like that. but also maybe not. You want him to decide he doesn't want it. Groomed? Well, it's not just that. It's like the Allison High Tower thing.

Like, how could I know? Sure. If that's what I wanted. Allison was on my mind quite a bit. You know, but like he's been groomed for this by his parents. I'm going to go ahead and say I do not approve of the methods that were used here. And so at the service of these guardians that I do not trust. And so, you know, and how Jordan seems like he hasn't had a great life as Greenlandered.

And so, like, in the way that I care about John Stewart and I want him to be happy, is the ring the way forward for that? Right. I thought that the, you know, we'll talk about some of the specific lines and moments in the episode that unlocked these questions. But broadly speaking, I thought the episode attempted, certainly, to thread the needle between asking us to seek to understand instead of overtly judge while all. saying we have some notes to show us something like little young John after the walk home, sobbing on his bed. And Bernadette's discomfort. Even just from the word go, the conversation between John Sr. and Bernadette, he's going to hate us. Like there's a acknowledgement from the beginning of what the cost of this will be.

Right. And then the course corrections, the moments where Bernadette in particular has to say, or confront what this has done to John. And then we have, in part because of the interview structure, we have these moments throughout where we are presented with John. I'll say present day for the 2016 timeline because that's cleaner probably, but obviously we have been. That's not actually the primary timeline of this show so far.

It is not actually present day. Present day for the purposes of this discussion. Talking about the way that he loves his parents and I found myself watching the episode trying to understand how he could be in that place. right? And then we see the journey to that, but it doesn't ever feel uncomplicated for John. And I think that all of the different aspects of how John sees and assesses the world, how he's thinking about the Guardians, how he thinks about his service, how he thinks about his family, how he thinks about how. There's such a complexity at play. You know, one of the moments, this is about the Guardian. It's not about, yeah, John's parents, but like one of the moments that I just, I loved was, um, you know, a Leanna character saying, like, I've been really sorry about, John says, the cops came. Like, try to sell this diamond and the cops came.

And the Guardian is like, sorry about that. You know, John's like, yeah, I'll pass that along. Really scoffing at the idea that the guardians have any true ability to care or understand what life on Earth is like, which is so central, of course, of this episode. and yet he is participating in this process, right? And so that is a... Like, there's a tension there just for John himself that I found quite interesting to watch in this episode.

I also just think it's interesting that, like... So if you think about the Tiger Woods, the William sisters, the Michael Jackson Combs, it's like being rigorously trained to be star athletes or entertainers. he's being grim to be a cop, the ultimate cop, a space cop. And that is what is super, like, extra layer of interesting. Sure, of course. When we meet John Stewart in the comics, he is pushing back on some cops who are harassing people, you know, because they're black.

And like that, so that's the John Stewart meeting in the comics, as written by two white men, of just sort of like, fuck the cops. like the cops are corrupt and racist and all this sort of stuff like that. And so for him to being his entire life being focused to put him in that system, slap bang in that system is fascinating. Yeah, it's like to be the most visible person in the world, to be a hero, to be, as Bernadette will say, like a figure who other kids can then look up to, admire, want to emulate. And that hero is a space cop. It's a cup. It's, you know, one of the aspects of this particular fictional universe that is so intriguing. Emails.

All right. I'm going to zoom through these really quickly. Hit us. We've got a lot. Just really quickly, Tina and Lily sent us, I sent to you this email. Amazing. They got matching BFF Apple tattoos. Incredible.

That's just the best. Astounding. They weren't color. They were black, like black outline apple tattoos. But. So wonderful. Really sweet. Just incredible.

Fonded over the pods. So they got Apple tattoos. This is incredibly touching. Happy birthday to M from Pat. Just a quick shout out. Justin, let us know that Kimball beat Rushville in a game. Damn. Friday night lights.

Here we go. No dead aliens involved as far as I can tell. 52 points. And then he said, I would like to pick a knit that John Stewart finding a cab to Rushville on his return trip from retrieving the charging station. You can barely get an Uber between Lincoln and Denver. Ain't no way someone has taken a cab. I see.

Justin boots on the ground. reporting from Nebraska. Some creative license taken here about how quickly someone would be able to get from the airport into town, noted. Will wrote in to say how after two episodes has nobody mentioned that the Macon family is William, Bill, Times Stu, Carrie and Zoe. Meaning these are the names of the Bill Simmons family. Yes.

Carrie spelled differently, but this is still hysterical. Does Bill Simmons and Sue after we find out that Jason Ritter is a Manhunter secretly named Ben the whole time? What do you think? Oh my God. This is great. This is great stuff. I'll have to ask Bill if there's a Noah and his extended family, though our ringer colleague, Noah Malala, is kind of like a grandson to a son to Bill.

So I think it tracks. The real question is, do the Mexicans have any pets named Murph? Oh, that's what we need to look into. Great question. Yeah. I did. Wait. Wasn't the militia guy named Ben?

Yes. Whoa. Dude. Bro. Ailey Ben. Oh, yeah. Thanks for remembering Ailey Ben. I forgot about it.

That's amazing. Too busy thinking about Whalen and Bailey to remember Ailey Ben. Yeah. Wow. Okay. It's all here. I did maybe convince Bill to watch the show, not based on this. But the actor who plays Chavez in this episode is from 9-0-2-1-0 played Andrea's husband on 9-2-1-0.

So I texted Bill when I watched this episode. And I was like, guess who's in this episode? And he was like, holy shit. He was very excited. He's like, does he have like actual lines? I was like, yeah, he's got two scenes with the main character where it's just the two of them. Like that's, he's not just like random background guy number three. He has like an actual role in this episode.

And he's like, I got to watch lanterns. And in my head, I'm like, he's not going to watch lanterns. And also he's not going to enjoy lanterns probably. But I tried. I tried. He might. Admirable effort. Okay.

Our listener Mickey wrote in with a voice memo that I loved because we were talking about the comic book character, it's atrocatus, which I was like, should it be pronounced atrocitous? Mickey wrote in to say, I believe the correct pronunciation is indeed the high of a lyrician one and that he sent a voice memo and I'm going to try to reproduce it. Atrocitus is what he said. Atroquitos. Diamond. Yeah, Diamond, Targaryen.

Atroquitos. It was like an incredible voice memo for Mickey. So thank you so much. Boy. Several of our listeners recommended that we watch. Aaron Pierre and Rebel Ridge. Guess what? I did. It slapped. It was great. Big Ringer movie. Had a great time with it. Haven't seen it. Adam loved it. Bill, Sean and Chris love it. A real Netflix movie that doesn't really exist. But this is what I was telling you that it was

like Rob Mahoney and Kai Grady over on the prestige feed. We're like, you haven't watched Rebel Ridge. What are you doing with your life? Kai Grady is the king of Netflix movies that don't exist, but he has seen them. Rebel Ridge does exist more than your average Netflix movie that doesn't exist. But like, yeah. But like, I was like when I was like, why I was like, why I was like, why didn't I see this? Then I was like, oh, it was a Netflix movie. That's why. Because they just passed me by. But Don Johnson in perfect shitbag, racist mode, really. And just like Aaron Pierre, Aaron Pierre's charismatic stoicism is really on display inside of that movie. So I really enjoyed it. I listened to Porchie. Porti, are you named for that guy from the crown? I don't know. But Porchie wrote in to say, the title of the email was, does Hal Jordan own a toilet brush? Okay. Intriguing. And he said, regarding your discussion, the lack of stuff in Hal's giant house. is interesting think about how that relates to his specific power set as a lantern.

That is, he makes stuff, counterfeit money, bottle openers, blast-proof domes, all of which evaporates into dust as soon as it fulfills its function. Hal believes he is complete and self-sufficient because he can fabricate whatever he needs the moment he needs it and then never thinks about it again. This likely extends to his relationships as well in that he doesn't want to rely on anyone but himself and he feels like he needs to. He doesn't need to. Hopefully the show explores the extent to which this is, or more likely, isn't true.

how's growth can be demonstrated when he buys a hair dryer and a fancy bath mat in case Sheriff Cain, Sheriff Cary, as we like to call her, sleeps over. I love this email. I love thinking about this. He definitely doesn't own a toilet brush because he definitely has a cleaning service that comes in. For sure. That is for sure. But in terms of like the larger like, does Hal Jordan need a blender for his margaritas? No, because he can just make one and then it poof it. That's fun to think about.

It is. And putting down roots means going to bed, bath, and beyond. And then our listener Taylor wrote in, he went through a bunch of lines in previous episodes that now have more resonance after watching episode three. I'm not going to go through it all because it'll probably like spoil our own conversation. But I will say he was talking about ways in which flashback episodes have not worked in recent television like the acolyte when we feel like we are. A, quote. Feel like the action is, A, grinding to a halt and B, we're not being told anything we don't already know, right?

And then ways in which it has, like, the Chickaybardo episode in Severin Season 2, which was an incredible flashback episode. So just sort of thinking about, like, because our Pal Allen Seppin Wall wrote an article, was not fond of this episode, wrote an article about the disease of the grinding to a halt flashback episode inside of a modern prestige television. And I agree with the sentiment. I think this isn't quite that in my view. But I think it's always interesting to think about, like, when are we deploying a flashback episode? What are we learning? You know, do we miss key ingredients of the show? Like, for example, something we were really viving on even when they were split up was the Hal and John dynamic.

And this episode doesn't have that until the final scene. Yeah. So, like, you could have done this episode flashing back to John while he and Hal are doing something in the modern day in 2016, except we're flashing to little. lovely Lori Lenny instead. So like, does, to your point about like the, does each episode feel distinct? You're like, together, split, but still in the same timeline and then absent how all together. Yeah. I miss that dynamic inside of this episode. Of course. For sure. Same. No question. I think that the overall assessment of the reliance on the standalone flashback at some point in a increasingly short season of TV in the prestige era is, I think a, I think a.

a valid and interesting debate. I remember, like, you and Rob talked about this a little bit with Widows Bay, just that that even a really great episode and a great season, sort of just raised that question of, okay, this is like a thing that just is happening. We almost expect it to happen at some point. Yeah. I think that because of that Vanessa quote that we shared from, you know,

the after the episode about the desire to give us John's origin story in more concentrated form, I'm like kind of willing to hit pause on that debate for this show given the larger impulse and reason behind wanting to do it. I don't know that there, because sometimes it's a question of the when and the where in the season. And sometimes it's a question of whether to have it in that form at all in terms of the solo episode versus stitch throughout. Yeah. I don't know that there would have been.

So if the desire was always to do a standalone John origin episode, which it seems like a. it was. Yeah. And I don't know that there would have been a better time in the season to do it. I think giving us this depth of insight early is probably best. But I don't think that's something we'll be able to assess in full until we complete the season. I was just in May this is an unfair comp, but I was just thinking about like, okay, so an episode that Stephen Williams directed for Law season two, Adrift, which is Sawyer and Michael are the raft. has come apart and they are literally a drift on the ocean.

I love that there is a water scene in this episode. There is. Stephen Williams, master of the water takes. But, like, on Lost, you see something that happened in that person's past that the other characters in the scene don't know about. And we didn't know about yet. Stephen talks about it as in the official podcast for this episode, an empathy muscle.

You're building an empathy muscle, right? And that's what those, those, meet these characters in a lot. lost and you're like, wow, that's an asshole. And then you find out how they got to the island and you're like, oh, I understand why that person's an asshole. Or they don't seem like as much of an asshole anymore now that I know more about them, I, the viewer, but the people around them don't know. So there's that, that dramatic tension. But also just like the cut from this like very painful thing that happened to their past to whatever active decision they're making in the modern storyline versus cutting from, you know, and I love the way this

episode bounces around in time, but cutting from, you know, this happened in his, like, sniper assignment, and this happened in his childhood, and then Laura Linney is asking a pointed question about that. It's just slightly, it's, it's, it's, slightly different. And I'm not saying this is, this was trying to do exactly loss. Of course, it's not. But I was just thinking about that as a comparison, you know. Well, say, not only because of Stephen Williams, but, and Damon Lindeloff and the use of flashbacks, all the things we've already talked about, just the use of the word candidate. Oh, yeah. I think makes it very difficult not to think about lost.

We're always thinking about loss. We are always thinking about loss. Last one at least, before we go into the deep dive an hour or so into this podcast or whatever, our listener Reagan said, I have a lot of... Unbelievable. Before you even just, let me just say, I see the green apple at the end. Yeah. Do you have a filter set, a rule set in the Gmail inbox to remove if someone puts a red apple in?

No. No? Interesting. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts about episode three, outcast, race and family, and expectations, and fear, and courage and fulfillment and hero worship and entitlement. and Laura Linney and so so much, but I'll just limit myself to this. I was very impressed to see the show demonstrate the correct usage of red apples as trash

to be blown to pieces and thrown away. Have a great day. We did get another email from a listener, actually, like, since I put these emails in, from Donovan, called just Apple Economics. Roughly how much of the diamond funds went into the Stewart family's red apple budget? Did they buy cheap or splurge for their favorite son? Great question. That is a great question. Do you think that green apples couldn't be used for?

Because they're too precious. Target practice because the skin is delicious and precious. Too waxy cutting and thick for even a griful. Ammo and challenging in the best way. Yeah. Okay. You can only be you. Yeah.

You can only be you. And you wouldn't have me any other way? No, I honestly wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. Thanks. I love you. For the best. Let's do it.

Okay. John's interview. Begins. We open in the 2016 timeline. John is falling. He's falling from this domed ceiling. He lands on these mattresses. He makes his way there at these signs with arrows guiding him. This kind of like abandoned mall and then office space setting. Can I talk? Can I just? Please. Already pause. Want to talk about that. Get in there. As this sort of like this decision. Okay, first of all, it's a, it's a very budgetarily friendly way to do this scene. Yeah. So. But it's such a cool, uncanny setting for this. Okay, so this is John meeting an alien. Right. Right.

Yes. First of all, the alien looks like Laura Linney doesn't look like that giant blue thing that we see or the little blue things that the guardians are in the comic books, right? So they could have done like a little blue guy or gal, right? They did Laura Linney instead. Right. And there's an in-universe sort of explanation for that. Yes. But to set it in this derelict mall, which first of all is like this cool metaphor for like the crumbling American dream.

Sure. Right. American commerce just to completely abandon as a lot of our malls are, even in 2016, I guess. And then also it's just a, it's just like a cool sci-fi fantasy trick. Yes. To present an uncanny, to give us something extraordinary wrapped inside of a really extraordinary, ordinary, ordinary mundane setting. Yeah. So if you think of something like, I mean, Doctor Who would do this all the time, but like, a hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or something like that where you're like, we're giving you bureaucracy. We're giving you a really boring looking job interview and a really dumpy cluttered office. But actually this is an alien and the job you're interviewing for is a space cop. Space cop. The Greenland turn core. You know what I mean? And so it's just like I think that juxtaposition is and it's something that Damon has historically. done really well inside of his shows. Like if you think about like the derelict Dharma stations

inside of Lost where like all this extraordinary stuff is happening while you're surrounded by like defunct tech from the 1970s. And there's just this like weird uncanny aspect to that. And I just love that they used it here. I agree. I mean an HBO Sunday Night prestige drama loves a decrepit mall. Shout out Last of Us. But I agree. It felt like the, you know, if the if the show is the ring in this case, then this is a construct. It would manifest that is in keeping with what is in the subconscious of the thing and what are they trying to show us. You know, the overall, this is something we've been enjoying since the beginning of the series, the overall balance of this version of lantern saying we are rooting it in this grounded, very earthbound human,

recognizable thing. And through that, we will actually somehow heighten the way that the galactic and vast and sprawling feels either ingrained or distinct rather than that feeling like an impossible to reconcile clash. I think the show's done. And then in addition to that, little aspects of this like just the fact that the door says manager, it's a good way quickly to, of course that's the office that Leanna, the guardian of the universe took, right? I'm in charge. Space cops have bosses. Like that idea has been there from the beginning of the show. It's like,

thinking of something like supernatural in the way that they, they did God on that show. Like, you know what I mean? It's just sort of like, yes. Yeah, it's so,

it's so ordinary, it becomes extraordinary. And like, definitely. And I just, I really love that. And like, they didn't have to do it that way.

You know, like, when we loop back to the end of the episode, we find that like, because we're like, hey, how did he start falling? Right? And then when the episode opens.

And then later we find out he like went through this, he took a leap of faith through, through a hole. right? But like that hole could have taken him to like a, you know, crystalline space, you know, Fortress of Solitude-esque, like high-tech sort of place. But it took him to a pile of dusty mattresses in a mall. And I just think that that's awesome. I really agree. I also liked the kind of timeline cementing that this did by clarifying for us that this was 2016. Now again, this is something we knew. Two months. We knew from the beginning of the show, okay, like we've been training for two months and. That was actually presented that that moment is kind of like, that's a long time for you to not have taught me really anything of consequence about how to do this job. But what you feel here, I think, is just the freshness and the newness of the relationship between Hal and John in this form.

And then you pair that with the depth of history and our ability to understand and new how, you know, and again, we also already kind of understood this. But there's a deepening of that understanding because the series opens with young John. watching Hal on TV. Like from the beginning, we know that Hal has been a figure in the Stewart family life. We come to understand exactly in what fashion. Right. And so there's like simultaneously this note of this is a really fresh thing and it has been inextricable from the entire life that John has lived. I thought that was very tidily reinforced as well. This is where the other person leaves when Leanna. Can we talk about this name quickly? Laura Linney, Lianna. It's just very like Whalen and Hale and Rushville.

Like, is Leanna just, it's kind of... Yeah, bits of Laura Lenny. Yeah. Anyway, I was like, is that really? I thought it was actually not correct when I saw that that was her name, but it is. Interesting stuff. We already talked about this, the other person leaving, you know? And also just the, this is like, it reminded me a little bit of the, you know, the realtor trick.

Like, make sure that you schedule the people who are coming. to see the house to arrive the second the people who were just there left. Like she wants John to know that other people are in the running for this job. On our guard with the guardians

immediately, as we should be. That story I told you about when I was touring houses in Los Angeles and I got there early by accident and then this guy comes running up and he's like, oh, are we all here early? It was just like, clearly a plant. It was like so bizarre.

Anyway. Great stuff. Oh, yeah. So, okay. She tells John to wait. Yes, which he does. It takes it quite literally. All night.

And she is just astonished by this, right, Joe? Yeah. But this is John's training. At home and the Marines eventually with Hal. I want to talk about her character design here. Yeah, please. Okay, so hiring Laura Linney, you know, obviously Chris Mundy has this connection to her via Ozark and stuff like that. So he's like if you can call Laura Linney, you're going to call Laura Linney, right?

Yeah. Great. But the decision to make her look like a 1950s housewife is really interesting to me. This sort of like cooks like Betty Crocker looks like Donna Reed sort of vibe coming from her. This sort of space-caron energy that she's giving off. But also, so like she's like a, if we're going by the comic book ages, she's like a silver age guardian. Like this is, you know, so like of a different time has not updated her look in any way to, you know, she's like, I, we find this is less terrifying if we present ourselves as human. Yeah. But a human from like the 1950s and not a human from the 80s, which is when, you know, she first meets his family, et cetera. And I think that's interesting.

Yeah. Also, we want to think about John Stewart having sex with Zoe in the first episode. Yeah. Let's talk about his mommy issues, which. Or you can just triangulate across his mom, his hot mom, this hot space mom, and Zoe making Grandma, Hot Grandma, you know, just like John loves a mature woman. It's all sort of tangled up in there. And for...

Look, we've talked about the daddy issues. That's what I'm to say. For the mommy issues. For a world, the worlds that we cover are usually all tangled up in daddy issues. So Mommy issues have entered the chat. And what Vanessa said... We have spent our summer on Mommy issues. It's true.

incest is abounding. But I think what's... It's true. Cape Fear, baby. I think what's interesting is that... What Vanessa said on the official podcast is that they had written the pilot script before they had written this episode. Yeah.

And so... And she was sort of, you know, as a mom, she was sort of like, you know, it's not just the dads who are deriving this kind of like pursuit of excellence narrative inside of the stories. And so seemingly her, the implication was that she was sort of the one who was like, there should be a mom, the mom should be central. And in fact, the mom is like more of the driving force here than not.

So if you think about, did they not go back? Because like, Bernard's not in the pilot. And if you watch the pilot, you're like, oh, this is John Sr. was the one driving this. Phone call to dad. But so this idea that like two episodes later, they're like, oh, actually it's the mom. But like she's not in the pilot. I just think that's interesting.

Yeah, well, part of what we see in this episode, of course, is not only the way that Bernadette is driving things for John Jr., but also for Junior, also for John Sr. Yeah, on the character design front, the idea, I love that observation, the idea that for Leanna, for a Guardian, who, it's one of the many ways that the episode shows us, sometimes we hear characters act. say this out loud, sometimes it's through like a visual rendering like this, that the guardians have no fucking idea what life on earth is actually like. She doesn't see race. That's my moment

when she was like, by black, you mean brown skin or whatever? And it's just like a real I don't see race moment from her. Yeah. And the idea. Which is literally from the comics where the guardians are like, Hal's like, this, this black guy can't be green lantern and the guardians of the comics are like, we have no time for your petty bigotries. But it's just like really like, we don't acknowledge the realities of how this would be different. Right, exactly, right. And, you know, the fact that she thinks that, like, taking the form assuming the avatar of an unassuming old and white lady would be, like, very welcoming to everyone is such a deliberate mistake for her to make. We do get some lore. You know, we talked a little bit about the

Guardians of the universe last pod. We get a little bit more lore here from the conversation that Leanna and John Cher, ruling body at the cosmos, founder of the lanterns, blue. Twelve of them, though one recently died. And John's like, why are you suddenly interviewing candidates? The ring chooses people. That's how it works. Because of your condolences. Condolences on the dead guardian.

Yeah. The ring chose Sinestro that did not work out very well for us. This is one of the things that is kind of peppered throughout the episode is the guardian's mistrust of. Hal, who was trained by Sinestro and Sinestro took down a guardian. This is an episode that is very much oriented around the idea of what is instilled and ingrained in you by the people who the guardians would say program you. John would say raise you. Hal was Sinestro might say train you. So the guardians are fearing what aspects of Sinestro's worldview, Hal might carry.

And so it is the fact that it is that Hal is, because of the Sinestro coaching tree, a threat to them, much more so than anything specifically about. It's interesting that they would then have Hal trained John. It's so interesting to me that they're like, on the one hand, they're... Well, don't you think it's like they almost know he won't? Well, they're really excited to have John be the, you know, by the end of this interview, John be the one to take the ring from Hal. It's so interesting. Okay, so like if you think about superheroes, superheroes who have powers granted, you know,

and like if you comp to like Superman, the kryptonite is a weakness for him. But in general, like, nobody can, other than a villain-wielding kryptonite, can't, like, turn off his power, right? Or like, you know, Wonder Woman or these other DC figures. But this is a distinctive kind of superhero, not unique, but distinctive in terms of like

it is granted to you and there's such a leash on it. Yeah. There's such a leash on this power. It's a ring we've given you and a lantern we've given you. And if you don't have the lantern, you can't do this. And if you don't have the rings, you can't do this. And we, at this point in their juncture, we are deciding we want to decide who gets that and who doesn't.

And that is such a different power set than a lot of, and what a lot of other heroes are dealing with. And so, but it's interesting that they're like so mealy-mouthed about it. They're not willing to kill Hal themselves or, you know, they could definitely subdue Hal and rip the ring off his finger themselves. They're wanting John to do it for them, which I think is really interesting because they're like, we've put a cap and a leash on this power, but we're not willing to make it so clear that we put a cap and a leash on it. We're going to use you as the tool in order to enact that plan, you know. I think that a couple things. One, there are a couple moments in this episode from Leanna herself, and then we hear this from Bernadette shared with John Jr.

On the heels of the conversation that Bernadette has with Leanna, this idea of the limits of the system. You know, it's presented from Leanna as the limitations of the system and then positioned from Bernadette as some bullshit about the limits of the system, right? So the idea of this kind of like, how true is that and how farcical is that? how much is that idea of like, oh, the limits of the system that cap what we can do or what we can see or what we can understand how what kind of positive impact we can have, how much we can shield people. That itself is a shield for the guardian. They've created the system. Exactly. And then this is a episode. They just don't want their hands dirty.

They don't want to do that to a guardian and have all the other guardians in the core be like. The lanterns. Sorry, or the lanterns in the core be like, you know. Right. They want to be able to like maintain some plausible deniability and distance. but it's also about wielding from their perspective a tool not only that can do that thing for them, but then that they can, what is this episode across character sets really interrogating, control, right? Choice and control.

Loyalty. How much agency do you have in your own life and how much is somebody else seeking to direct you and move you along some sort of tram line? Yeah. The guardians are certainly, yeah, the path. The guardians are certainly trying to do that. Yeah. And then I was thinking back on that front, too, to like what we've heard Hal say about, you know, and there's a version of this in the Lantern's movie as well. Like, the ring was never supposed to come to Earth. The Guardians didn't give her shit. Earth is a backwater to them. And so then there's this pivot point in part because the ring is here and how it does have it. And I've been sort did crash here. And we got that little juicy nugget about, you know, the, oh, theory fodder in episode two about what. why in the Manhunter, right?

Okay, so we still have a lot of questions about that. But, like, what is the Guardian's interest in Earth really? Like, and what does that look like in full? And so what do they need to, from their perspective, as space cop bosses seeking to control, what other aspects of the board do they need their earthly lantern to do for them? Like, we don't have, we have enough reason to ask those questions out, but we don't have all of the answers. Yeah, it's very interesting.

It's interesting when you go back to the origin of the guardians and the comics and it's about, you know, these people who took a number of different paths, there's like, because the guardians have styled themselves the guardians. They're the ones who, of their race, the people who style themselves the controllers. Right. They were just like a bit more overt with what they were interested in. But the guardians who believe that the best way to rule is by renouncing emotion. basically they're Vulcans, right? But this goes back to what I was talking about with the Jedi Council,

which is like when you try to introduce humans into like messy human emotion into a system that's like, emotions bad, actually. Not just fear, but all emotions bad. But the rings themselves are powered by various emotions.

It's very intriguing. Also the Jedi comp that I made a couple episodes ago, I hadn't realized that this was something that like, people talk about a lot when they talk about the lanterns because they talk about like the the sort of like master apprentice dynamic that is intrinsic to lantern lore. And, you know, like the coaching tree that you just explained could be like quagont to Obi-O-B-Wan and Anakin, blah, blah.

And then also some Hal storyline, the Anakin comp and some of the Hal storyline stuff has been, has been something people have been talking about for a long time. But I just think that like, I don't know. I think this, this. emotional component is so interesting. And the way that Laura Linney is playing this Leanna as someone who's like chirpy and perky. But like I don't understand your human emotions. I don't understand your human ways. Deliberate pauses and the lov positioning of like the tilt of the head or like look of the eye. Very bird chirpy. But like we don't understand like when when Bernadette's like, hey, I don't know. No. When she shows up and she's like here's this diamond. Yeah. So what we've heard. is that coming to people in the dead of night was emotionally tumultuous for them. Humans have a tough time with that.

Weird. Diamond? You know? And so it's just sort of like we are ill-equipped to handle how human emotional realities go hand in hand with our cool little ring system that we have in place. On the Jedi confront and as you know, my, well, my favorite. favorite thing to talk about on podcasts over the last decade has probably been the, you know, it's just tits and dragons Zian McShane quote about Thrones and dire wolves. My second favorite thing has probably been the, um, the maddening rigidity of the Jedi Order on the

international front. And so the other, the other, the other comp that's really present in this episode on that front is like, you know, the conversation about, um, why not Marcus and Aaron? Oh, they're too old. They are still in the babies. They're too. You got to get. You gotta steal the babies. Your little Jedi to the temple when they're newborns, when they're infants. By the time Anacons 8, by the time Luke is 19, it's a fucking rap. That was fascinating. Marcus is like, the discussion about conditioning.

Yeah, Marcus is like, actually, I don't want to have Apple shot off my head. Thanks so much. No, thank you. The birthday present scene. A gun? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. On the, what are the Guardians of front?

You know, if we think about the stitching, where the episodes have broken so far, you know, we go back to where we ended episode two. I mean, it's worrying, right? Hal has not only, you know, we have the conversation between Carrie and Hal on the hospital sequence. You know, you talk about him in your sleep, right? I don't talk about it what you do in your sleep about Sinestro. But then the episode ends with Hal seeking him out. And Sinestro, you've been. tracking the wedges, right, the characters across the season have sought to put between John and

Hal. And so we leave Hal at the end of episode two basically in a position where Sinestro, the mentor, who the guardians are like, we're afraid of what that guy might have said to Hal, taught Hal, conditioned into Hal. And we have literally just come off an episode that ends with Sanestro being like, well, if there is a, why don't you, why don't you tell me about John Stewart? It's like, done. I'm sure this will be fine. That's the second biggest threat. Let's talk about the first biggest threat. John Stewart.

Incredibly worrying. Yeah. Incredibly worrying. I also think to go back to that email that we got from our listener, Taylor, again, he enumerated a bunch of things that we don't need to go into all them because we're going to go into some of them. But like, the knowledge, this is from his email, the knowledge that the guardians aren't happy with how Hal has been conducting himself and John's replacement on a trainee. This quote, did you tell the guardians about this portion is a sticky? is the most interesting of all to me.

All the more reason added this week for John to resent and distress Halen, he still made the decision to tell him about his meeting with the aliens, the Manhunter, and their time limit. Is it a play? Is his character truly just that upright, you know, like, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, like, the fact that you find that John is here as a almost like sleeper agent. Do a coup. Yeah. To do a coo.

It's my favorite phrase. It really is. We don't say it enough. But we say more than most people. We do. I was sort of like, yeah, to do a coup as a sleeper agent. And he still tells Hal. I know.

It gives me a lot of hope. Yeah. A lot of hope about... These two crazy kids will certainly like work past all the wedges. And there are some lines in this episode that I'm excited to talk about as we get to them in the context of the scenes where something that John says that's an insight into his role of view. You're like, oh, could we get, could we flip that in terms of where he and Hal are together? Okay. Leanna's like, most of the candidates ask why me.

And John's like, no, I know, I know exactly why me. And then we go to the flashbacks. The ring choosing John Sr. We cut to little baby John in the crib and the room filling with green light. And we watched this. This was an interesting choice. We watched it on John's face. We hear it.

We hear, are you afraid? Yes, yes. But we don't actually see it. We're seeing it play out on John's face to kind of cement this idea of the, connection between the generations and the impact it will have on him. You had wondered previously, Joe, whether Hal actually answered the question, like, no, did this, what impact did this have? Does this cement the idea that if John Sr. and all of these other candidates who we hear had the option of, say, were presented with the test and failed? The word, I don't see it now,

but you did write it. The word you use in the notes about this is, like, we can glean, Yes. Et cetera, et cetera. Glean. Yeah. I am resistant to gleaning. Tell me. I find Hall a really unreliable narrator in general.

And so I hear what you're saying. I think that's what I'm asking is we don't. Does this what we learned, what we saw here mean we don't have to rely on Halas narration? Does it take us to the point of being able to say we've witnessed the test? I still want to see it. I still want to see it. I just like I'm sure I'm wrong. But like I still just want, I just feel the need to doubt.

We've been around the world. We're so tired. This guy said he was afraid to him, we have no choice. I think where I am with it still is that he said, no, I'm not afraid, but he's lying to himself. Or the fact that he has suppressed and pushed aside everything in his life that would allow him to feel fear is a bad thing. What if lamentable? The ring comes to him and is like, oh, you're afraid, right?

And he's like drunk and hung over. He did say nine beers deep. Yeah. And he's just sort of like, huh. And so he doesn't say like yes or no. And they're like, what's, what's that? You know, like, this could be, listen, you might be on to something. We have perhaps been primed for this by Hal's own story about Aubyn Sert.

He's like, never knew if he said good luck or off fuck. I mean, yeah. So it could have been a drunken mumble instead of a like. The whole lantern season one is just going to be a version of Vassaris's like. It's a telephone. The game of telephone. I know what Jaggon he was talking about. I like it.

It's game telephone and the ring didn't quite. And the ring was tired. I was like everyone, all these humans are afraid. This one at least is just mumbling, so we'll go with it. Great stuff. You know what I like to, so we don't know was John Sr. first? We don't know that. But what we do know is that Hal was last.

Yeah. All these other people, some of those other candidates could have been before John Sr. John Sr. could have been first. And then there were how many allegiance between John Sr. and Hal. We go from Bernadette coming back into the room after checking on the other kids and seeing John Sr. on the floor, deeply distressed by what has unfolded, and then we cut to...

Cowering, quivering. Quivering. The yellow-drenched lanterns logo. Yeah. On the sort of how we see it play out front, something that Stephen William said in the official podcast is that he was very invested in point of view when it came to this episode.

So in terms of making sure that this is so anchored in John's, John Jr.'s P.O.B., even though there are some scenes. without him. So it's not like, it's like very strictly that. But I think in terms of framing, he was always trying to frame it. If John was in the scene, the scene was from his point of view. Even if he's a little, we taught. Yeah. This encounter, understandably so, major source of trauma for John Sr. He shoots the TV. This is another Hal Jordan, though he has not yet revealed that his name is Hal Jordan. He's still wearing the mask. He hasn't shown his face. A news anchor is

describing the latest heroics, another city saved by the hero known as Green Lantern. And he shares a statement from hell about being chosen, about being fearless. And he's wearing the mask. He's got, yeah, he's hiding his face on his name still at this point. So we're back before, you know, this is the decade before the 60 Minutes interview. And I love this that, like, this idea that John Sr. is not just coping with the trauma, living with the trauma of this experience, the ring, the green bubble, pulling him out of bed and asking him, are you afraid?

But of seeing someone else live the life. This guy? That he's not living the person who was chosen after him. He should get off social media. Comparison is a thief of joy, John Sr. You know, I agree. As I as my screen time mounts and my brain rot. No, you can't do that to yourself.

But also, but also in terms of like to go back to where we met John in episode one watching Hal. Yes. This idea that goes back, that makes me think, again, of that idea we were just talking about, which in terms of like the Bronze Age creators, comic creators being like the people who grew up with. So like John Stewart Jr. is the. the first generation to grow up with the Green Lantern on earth. And there is this resentment that comes from all the ways in which Hal has screwed him and his family over. But there's also, I mean, this is a hero.

This is a superhero that he watched on TV. And so how is there not also that hero worship that goes with him? And, you know, we heard this from Macon, so tough source. But, you know, one of the points that he made on the ranch in episode one was like, your emergence of Green Lantern kind of buried the lead. This was also the moment in this slice of comics canon of, oh, there's... First Contact.

A whole vast universe out there. I was really thinking of Contact, the film Contact, when Bernadette was at the Homemade Radio, trying to reach out fascinating stuff. Speaking of Bernadette... And you're like, where is Matthew McCona? I mean, I'm always asking that. As you know, that's not my favorite movie.

I love Contaguer. I know you do. There are some great things in it. Not my favorite. Should have sent a poet. Incredible. Okay, now I'm willing to love it. Okay.

That changed my mind. Great. Bernadette, the other thing that we see here, it's not just the trauma, the pain, the fear. Doubt. And we learn this is, we'll see it later when John is at Alpac with General Chavez. You know, I know he had some struggles. Nobody believes. Would you?

John Sr. And if Adam was like, if you saw a superhero, if you saw a superhero Kyle Chandler on TV, and Adam's like, you know, they came to me first. That could have been me. That could have been me. And you're like, what are you talking about? And he's like, you were in the other room, getting a snack. This part.

And this green light came. I would be inclined to believe a green bubble came and pulled me out of bed. And I'm kind of like, I have, let me tell you this. I don't mind. I don't mind sharing this. I often ask. ask myself, would you be prepared in real time to accept something supernatural? But I have lived my life waiting and hoping for just such a moment. I want magic to be real. I want, you know, this is what I want.

I'm refusing the call. I tell you this right now. That just means you're going to be the reluctant hero who ultimately saves the day. One would hope, but John Sr. does not get that second chance on the hero's journey. I mean, if a green bubble pulls me out in bed and asks me if I'm afraid, I'm like, yeah, I'm placing myself right now. I'm very afraid. Can I have like an outfit change? Sure. Our listener signed it M. Kitsen, wrote in to say, compared John Sr. sort of shame, I guess, around this to World War II soldiers who were denied active service. I mean, you think of Steve Rogers, if you prefer. But like, you know, these people who, like, wanted to go fight and were denied.

I was also thinking of World War I soldiers and the white feathers. You know, during World War I, this idea that, like, someone could walk, if you were a young seemingly healthy man and you were not off fighting the war, someone will walk up to you and hand you a white feathers and, like, you're a coward, you're a chicken, you're not fighting. You know what I mean? So this, like, this fog of shame around not being called to serve for a soldier. in general for this guy. But yeah, like what that could do to you in terms of psychological? To your point, like, of course, him having a drinking problem and shooting the television is a result as a PTSD response to what has happened to him.

I'm just saying, I do think that there was like a kernel of instability that was already there. Yeah, I think that, you know, Bernadette is like taking the kids, we're going to school, be back when we're gone, we see the tears in John's eyes. And I really, like, the fact that this episode through John Sr. is so interested in showing us in that because we know the other candidates, we wonder, and we hear, like, from Leano, how many lives have been destroyed by this moment. Like, the decision to show us what it's like, so many superhero stories about what is, like, to be chosen, right? To acquire powers.

To really linger in what it's like to have had the chance, but then not be the one. Interesting. is really fascinating to me and I was thinking like often there are versions of that certainly write a story about some poor knight who couldn't pull the sword out of the stone that would be wonderful what's that going to do to him for the rest of his life this probably exists will it be romanticity obviously it's all a metaphor you can pull that sword out of somewhere else if you know what I mean big metaphor guy um I don't know I was thinking too like sometimes the oh I got passed over, I made it overture. It's like often the version of that story of like what it,

what do you carry with you? What does your life look like if you didn't get to do the thing you want it? It's like it's like it's a villain story. Yeah. Killeen or something like that. Like this is so not that with. Is it not? He's shooting apples off of his son's head. I don't know. I get we have some notes. We have some notes. But to your empathy muscle point. Yeah. It's not quite killing. Yes. Yeah. And certainly not. And I think also this was the other thing I wanted to know in this John senior shooting the TV moment is that

Bernadette understandably says to him here get out and you're scaring me fear notable not only because we're always tracking when characters because it's just a very human thing to do exhibit fear and feel fear but because Bernadette

will say to Leanna in short order I don't do scared and we will know because we have just seen that that's not true So that kind of feeds into this overall thesis and assessment of how much of this shows, this Lantern's Adaptation's version of the fear versus will, et cetera, is about, and we will get the courage quote at the end, et cetera, is about trying to process and then push through your fear and how much is not allowing yourself to feel fear when that is a very human thing in the first place.

Speaking of Bernardat, makes a bargain. Makes a bargain with the Guardians. This is where Leanna shows up. Dormammu, I've come to bargain. Oh, man. Love that. Love that. I miss Dormammu.

I do. It's just one of my favorite. Dormamu, I've come to bargain. It's incredible. Dormammu, I've come to bargain. Over and over, over, over, over, and over again. Just, Cumberbatch's a horrible accent, just like, it's being tested again and again. No, no.

Absolutely flawless. I love it. Bernadette has John with her, taking out the trash, and Leanna shows up in the driveway. Ask to see Sergeant Stewart. He's not home. Offers a diamond and offers some regrets. We have reports that many of the candidates considered for the role of Green Lantern have been experienced emotional turmoil. And this is where Bernadette's like, prove it. You look just like some unfortunate white lady to me. I mean, unfortunate. of. Honestly, Laura Linney looks amazing. But also, Laura Linney's face, Leanna's

face, when she says, prove it. Yeah. This like, excuse me? This like a front. But then she does. She does. No, but this affront of like, prove it. Yeah. But isn't that like the whole thing that John has to do? Like, prove it, yeah. Everyone has to prove it to the guardians, but the guardians are like, prove it to you?

Yeah. Yeah, she does it, but she's like, excuse me. Yeah. What does she do she? think about not, so this is the I don't get upset, show me moment, but what did you think about not seeing the guardian's face? We get this from, we get to see, we linger on Bernadette's face watching this transformation and we are behind Leanna's. Right. She is stretching, but does that feel like we're building, we're biding our time to see the guardians in full or more like we just didn't need to show maybe a bad effect? I just don't think they're going to show it to us. Yeah, okay. Fair enough.

Fine, you know. So Bernadette invites Leanna in for coffee. And they discuss what happened to John Sr. She says, my family's falling apart. And this is where we get that. The system is imperfect line from Leanna, this like real kind of cold, detached, distant bureaucracy, this idea that everyone is just a cog and arm machine and a tool. It's not your life and your family that you were telling me is destroyed, even though I'm going to kind of go through the farce of pretending. That's why I'm here to offer you a giant, doubt.

diamond and that'll make it all okay. It's the system and we need the system to an order to be able to exert the control that we seek to maintain. And then Bernadette asked, do you know the difference in race on earth? Do you understand how unfair it is to ask a black man in America if he's afraid? We're terrified daily of persecution and still show up, sometimes better than everyone around us. Did you know that? I did not. Even in space, y'all don't consider us. So Howell's privilege in even saying. Right. He's not afraid.

Because white guy privilege. Right. Yeah. White guy privilege in, you know, what is the comp for where he lives? Is it San Diego? Is it San Francisco? I think it's supposed to be San Francisco. San Francisco.

Oh, yeah. Okay. San Francisco white guy versus Detroit Black Man. Like, different vibes. Yes. And then the fact that the different paths to the ring that we've been talking about since the beginning of the series, connect to this different core fundamental experience.

Fascinating. So they strike a bargain here. Baby John Leona says. It's a very fairy tale. Mm-hmm. Like, Ferry Rapunzel or like, or the fairies in general or like whatever is like,

I've laid a claim to your baby. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's in exchange. Yeah. For this diamond. Yeah. It's not quite the exchange, but kind of.

And also like, I, oh, I. Yeah. You have my word. Take me the person who, person, the guardian who's only impact on your life so far as you just told me I've destroyed your husband and your family. Take me at my, take me at my word. The qualities at the ring saw in John Sr., Leanna says, are in John Jr. And so are Bernadette's qualities.

Firmittable. I love that. She calls her. I would like someone in the world to describe me as formidable at one point in my life. Just putting that out of the world as an intent. attention. Not you. It doesn't count if you ask for it. But like, I'm going to do it. No, it doesn't count if I say I want someone to call me formidable. I'm going to do it when it is authentic and real. And it will be all the time because I constantly think about how formidable

you are. You are a formidable person. Me? Hardly. God. Hardly. If he's scared, Bernardad ass, he'll fail. Well, if I raise him to be fearless, that'll warrant our attention. him. And then in 2016, John tells Leanna this is when he's like, do you know what happened after this? Like, are you the one who came here? Do you know what happened after this? He's like, that diamond. Yeah. That's great. And then she asked, John, did you become a Marine because your dad was won? This is part of like the kind of episode long through line of asking questions about his relationship to various members of his family. And he says, yeah, it was part of the past. to put him right here in this conversation across from a guardian in pursuit of the ring. And so this question of, as we've discussed a lot already today, control, like, what choice did John have at all in any of this? What, like, agency does John have in his own life?

Obviously, when he's young, the answer is zero, right? The path is set for him and he is told to walk down it. And then the moments throughout the episode where he is presented with some choice and will exert some agency. I actually don't like cheeseburgers. No, not dad. You. Sick. Yeah.

Art school, et cetera. We, I think, feel a simultaneous. His mom applied for him. Exactly. So, like, we feel, I think this simultaneous, like, John is taking more of a hand. but to what extent is that even possible if this is how it's gone. So Chris Mondia on Inside the episode said,

the thing we really wanted to play with was if you've been given a dream your whole life, is it yours? Given a dream, really interesting idea to explore. Allison High Tower, baby. On the pathfront, I thought it was really interesting

to think about the role of prophecy inside of Green Lantern stories that like when Jeff Johns took over the Green Lantern storyline in the book, in the books, in the comic books. And there was this Blackest Night prophecy that he sort of seated very long, for a long time, into the Blackest Night sort of event. But, you know, in this telling of the story, it is sort of why Abinster dies. It is like a thing that where he's trying to investigate into the Blackest Night prophecy, all the sort of stuff. So this idea of prophecy and event foretold a path already laid. Yeah.

Like, John is sitting there because he was told that he would be sitting there. That self-fulfilling prophecy of like, you know, and his parents lie to him about a bunch of different things, including the birds. But they use that word destiny. Destiny, but also just sort of like, the job's yours. Not there's going to be another white guy walking out of the room right before you walk in, you know what I mean? Not like you'll be one. of several candidates, it's the job is yours if you do all these things we say. And that's a sort of prophetic self-fulfilling prophecy scenario.

As you know, I love a prophecy. I know. We're going to do a whole episode on it someday. That's a prophecy. Will it be self-fulfilling? Yeah. But it's going to be, that'll be like a month. Yeah.

It's going to be great. Prophecy month. Can't fucking wait. Great. Isn't it always Prophecy Month here at the House of Arne? Yeah, it'll be after Paula Fing. That's coming. 2027.

Prophecy Month. 2027 is next year. Yeah. Prophecy month. You ever think about that? You ever think, boy, it's 2026, how'd that happen? I got really excited. I saw a release date of a book I was really excited about it.

It was January 2027. I was like, oh, that's so soon. Damn. We're like, we're just cycling back around. Is it Akotar 7? It is not Akotar 7. It is like you're saying Loder. I stand by Loder.

I know. I stand by it. I want to apologize. thing that... You were so... I will never forget how old you were. I was like really early in our partnership.

But not as... Not as early as you would think. Like, I feel like it should have been something I said, I'll add to you within five minutes of us podcasting together, but... Was it Rings of Power season one? Had to have been. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Probably.

And here we are, half a decade later. With season three. Standing strong. Now 2.10 time? That's right. All right. The Grey Wolf Mission. him. So we flashed to John meeting General Chavez at Outback. John is in full dress. He's like,

you don't have like any just regular clothes in the car. He's like, what did you not like understand about incognito, my friend? We were having this year. So yeah, an incredible moment. Just like, I ordered Drew Steak and a beer and John's like, thank you. It just pushes it aside. A lot of great little touches there. I've ever been to an Outback Steak pass. Is it good? What? That is exactly what you would think it would be. So last year. Yeah. The last two years, my friend and my friends and I, three of us, for our, our birthdays, we went to, like, red lobster. I'd never been to red lobster for the first time.

What'd you think? Fine? Yeah. Olive Garden for the first time. Oh, man. Pretty not great. But it's about, like, you know, it's about the, the breads, the endless breadsticks. And I mean, I haven't been to any of these places since I was a teenager.

But we were like casual dining. Is that what you call? Like an apple bees. I'd been to an apple beast before. But I've never been to an op-back. Is that where the bloomin' onions from? That's where the bloomin' onions is from. It is also where I believe the very famous meme, the two comments back to back.

Can't remember the details, but it's like, have you not seen this? I think this is Outback. It's a woman who posted, I don't even know if this is real. I see this meme resurfaced all the time. She posted like a one-star review. I believe for Outback because they forgot the bloomin onion. And then she knows. She's like, the next review is like, my husband ate it on the drive home.

But I couldn't figure out to delete the review. I'm really sorry. It's just hysterical. And it ultimately ends up being like a, oh, my God, the bloomin onion is so delicious. I haven't had a bloominions as I was like 16. Yes, this is a Wendy's. But Applebee's always, I mean, it's a survivor. I should say.

Yeah. I don't like onion rings. Has a role to play in Buffy season six, I believe. Specifically the Outback Blumen Onion. The Blumen Onion. So when that happens, we should go to Outback. You don't have to have the Blue Onion. You can have whatever you want.

I'll do it. And I will have some bloom an onion for the first time. Yeah. I'll get a foster's. I'll get a steak. I'll take at least one strand from the bloom an onion. Yeah. Exactly.

A pedal, I suppose. Yes, I will pluck a pedal. Okay. She loves me not. The general praises John's kill record as a sniper and says he's patient. And this, of course, makes us think of the exchange with Zoe at the bar in episode one. I'm patient. No, you're not.

And that smirk on John's face. So this idea of like... And he's like, mommy? Take me to the truck. Let's fuck. What's true for John the soldier? That maybe isn't true for John the person. And is this...

This was one of the things for us. Oh, are we on a path toward John saying, I'm going to decide what I want to do. I love that. He opens the folder. Code name Gray Wolf. This guy launder's money. Again, shout out of Ozark.

And John's like, I don't care about the man. Tell me about the mission. This was another line where I was like, will the opposite prove true? I care about the man on the mission. With John and Howe. Is that hopefully perhaps where we're heading? I just, I love those two together. I got to say nine months in the bush for a guy.

Come on. That's where he was. Nine months in the bush for a guy who launderes money. Yeah. Something else is going on there with Grey Wolf. It's just the payoff. I mean, like, and they were like it didn't have to take that long. And he was like, yes, it does. I got to eat the bugs and do the pushups. You know what I mean? And grow the beard. But like, oh, question for you about this. Yeah, what I eat a bug? I know you would eat a bug. I would eat a bug.

Yeah. I have eaten bugs. Yeah, some crickets and stuff. I've had a cricket. Yeah, I've had spice crickets. But the conversation else were in the episode about like, you know, all that time eating, eating bugs and bears. It's like, well, you're a vegetarian anyway. Do bugs not count as? Bugs, of course, count. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah.

I bumped on the same thing. We're so insane. I wonder if there's like a, you know, like pescatarians. Of course. Like, you know, they eat fish. I wonder if there's like an arthropod. That's what a bug is, right? You say so.

So arthur vegetable, you know, like I eat bugs is the only kind of mean I would eat. Just asking questions of the scientific community. Oppos and Dragons and People.com. Good me. Could be. Oh, God. So the mission is a waiting game. Yeah.

John is, of course, prepared for this because his entire life has been a waiting game, right? You're waiting for the thing that you, the goal is there. It's going to take a while. Do you wish they had gotten Jason Bateman to play the Grey Wolf or Julia Garner? Always. Yeah. Always. I really quite enjoyed Ozark.

I didn't. Which was the Tom Pelfrey season? Three. That was great. Oh, my God. Pelfry was great on Ozark. That was just unbelievable. But I got really burned out on that show.

I know you did. Yeah. But Pelfrey, phenomenon. Unbelievable. John asked how many have been sent before him. And this was another quick little moment, but I really liked it because it's a version of what we talked about with Hal in episode two, where we got to see him out in the field in Rushville doing the true detective detecting, seeing how John operates on a mission, right? The fact that he is assessing the context clues, that he is making a deduction very quickly, that he's observant, that he's smart. He's sharp.

Give me nine months, and I'll consider taking the shot. Oh, and that was when Graywall finally showed up, it was like, here we go. But then a couple other dudes were in the way for a second. And then Hal. The drapes were closed. Yeah. And then Hal came in fresh off of a couple cold ones at the titty bar. Amazing stuff.

So the general says the foster's just sloshing around inside of him. Man. You had a fosters recently? I've never had a fosters. Ever. I've had one, but it's been a minute. We will get it. We will. All right. Put out back on the books. Okay.

You want to wait. You don't want to wait for the Buffy moment. You don't want to just do that. All right. No, you don't think. Oh, man. General's like you'll have a panic button, right? So it'll be different this time. Panic button for extraction. And John says, I don't do panic, sir. Trained not to fear. Guess what? That's not true. To navigate that fear. But people panic.

Yeah. They feel panic. And then they mention his dad. Speaking of John Sr. Bernadette and John Sr. form a plan here. So Bernadette tells John Sr. about her encounter with The Guardian, apologizes for not believing him. This is the some bullshit about the imperfection of the system. But it could be John Jr.

Yeah. John Sr. is like, our baby, I don't understand. And then she says, they can't raise three boys to believe that no matter how good they're. are, they'll get looked over. Vanessa Bade and Kelly on the official pod said, we understand that story of what it means to have to be excellent in a world that's not made to recognize your excellence. Bernadette says, we didn't break every stereotype and face down every fear for you to be penalized because you're scared to leave the people that you love. Now, that specifically, for you to be penalized because you're scared to leave the people that you love. Very important line, right?

On the one hand, we have the how, of it all, Carrie, saying in episode one to John of how, you know, if you care about people, you're scared of losing them. He's not fearless. He's not fearless. So this idea of loneliness, this is going to be part of discussion between. That place is just impeccable. Impeccable. But then also, for Bernadette to say here to John Sr., the fact that you don't want your family to be without you and you don't want to be without your family is not a bad thing. That's not something we should frame as failure.

But then in the training with John, it's you can't worry about your brothers. Only worry about yourself. There's a tragedy to that, right, to what is sacrificed and compromised in pursuit of this goal. I think it's so interesting because it just feels like fear soup all the way down, right? Because it's like the guardians are enacting this plan, Operation Get a Lantern to Kill a Lantern plan because of their fear, right? And then when Bernad and John have this conversation, they're talking, you know, she's. She's talking about, like, sort of inside of this episode, she talks about, like, you know, I became a teacher. Like, we sort of escaped these certain stereotypes.

We don't want our sons to feel like there is no way for, you know, something that Vanessa said in the official podcast. She's like, they could have done it with academics instead of shooting apples off of their son's head. But, like, that they didn't, that they were afraid, basically. Yeah. Of, like, what their son's lives would be if they didn't push them really here. I mean, mostly one son. But, like, you know, what their lives would be if they didn't push them. very hard. And so again, it's like the guardian's fear and the Stewart's fear and it's just sort of

this like, you know, fear my asthma. And from this, John Stewart is supposed to rise fearless, or at least with a great command of fear. And I just don't think that's the environment in which one can do that. Yeah. I mean, I think the idea that it is, so the, this is that he's going to hate us. So be it and we condition him. So he's used to fear conversation about how the other two boys or older, but John can be forged in the fearless fires from minute one, right? This is that exchange. And, you know, the underbell, like, there's the idea that there's something in wanting their son to be able to live without fear that is beautiful, right?

To the idea that you could create a life for your child where he did not have to feel the things that you have felt, right? There's that part of it. And then, of course, the underbelly of it, that fear is bad or shameful, which again, part of why I'm fascinated in this conversation is that Bernadette is saying the opposite of that to John Sr. But then they lose that and have to work their way back to it in subsequent conversations between Bernadette and John Jr. You know, the idea that you can learn to conquer your fear, but that like fear can't be a, That's empowering, but the idea that fear has no place in your life is like... Unreasonable.

Inhuman. Creates fear of a different sort, right? About like, can anybody possibly expect to live up to that? And then the question of like, you know, what level of, on the he's going to hate us so be at front, you know, what level of, with the, we'll build toward the, I wanted crayons for my birthday, like moment shortly, you know, this question of, um, what other joy in life and self-discovery, right? What exploration of your own passions and things you came to on your own. Do you do not have room for them because it's always about training? This was where this was like, you know, that Stephen Williams quote on the pod,

you can take issue with their methodology but not their motivation. That framing of how to try to think about the real complexity of this of the origin of this, this horrible thing that happened. Right. That kind of led to this. And then the goal, but what does it look like in between those things and what is the cost? Can I read you this Bruce Tim quote about sort of how they decided to shape John Stewart inside of the animated series? Absolutely.

It's fascinating. Again, so like, you know, all of these white men have been the ones sort of responsible for shaping who John Stewart has been leading up to here, Jeff Johns, Bruce Tim, Denny O'Neill, Neil Adams. So this is what he says. He says about why they chose John Stewart when they assembled the animated justice League, they had a lot of options of who they could have put in there in terms of like Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner,

Carl Rainer, et cetera, et cetera. And they chose John Stewart and he says, out of all the Green Lanterns, we could have chosen, we all kind of liked the John Stewart character from the comics, especially the Jenny O'Neill Neil Adams version. When they first introduced him, he was like the angry young black guy, you know, in 1969

or 70, even though that's not really relevant today. Okay. Like the whole black power movement and everything. We still wanted to keep that kind of edge and attitude with him. And so just in banging around ideas of what to do with him, going back to the original idea of the Green Lantern Corps, where they're basically lensmen, their space cops, their space marines. We were like, okay, he's a military guy. This is where like John Stewart's military version of that story, like from being an architect to being a Marine and then both. Right. And then someone said Lewis Gossett Jr. and an officer and a gentleman, and I said, yeah, and then I went, wait a minute, Samuel Jackson, and everyone went, yeah.

So that's kind of who he is. He's real rugged, no nonsense. Barking orders kind of Green Lantern. We love him to pieces. We love him so much. He's like in almost every episode, I predict that you guys are going to love him too. I just think that's fascinating that they're like, okay, this sort of like angry black man version of John Stewart, to use their words, that was initially introduced in the comics.

And then this sort of like authoritative. barking order sort of military guy that they put in the animated series and this is this this idea their idea of like who this John Stewart should be. Phil Lamar talks about Phil Lamar

who voiced John Stewart for the animated series talks about how his voice for that role and Phil Lamar is a great voice actor Lex Luke's Luther too etc etc his voice for that role was based on the fact that Dennis Hayesbert auditioned before him

and so he's like I basically just went in and did a Dennis Hayesbert impression because, like, he had this big, like, John Stewart has this big chest and he's like, he needs this big booming voice. The fact that, like, now that other writers with a more complex idea of what it means to be a black man moving through the world in a position of authority, or whatever the case may be, are like, we don't get to be angry. You know what I mean? From this other idea of, like, you know, the black power movement anger or the like sort of authoritative barking orders military sort of, sort of version of him to like actually the reality is we're not allowed to be that and we have to

in order to get through the world we have to say we belong here we're better we have to be better than everyone else this is what his parents are instilling to him but we're not allowed to be angry how how gets to be messy and angry we don't get to be that and I just think that that's again it's sort of like who's who's shaping the role based on who's lived experience in the world you know yeah and I mean, the aspect of it, too, which is like, let's navigate every step of John's life from this moment forward to try to ensure that he can have a better experience than we did, but also knowing that he's going to be assessed, right? That it's like. Yeah. And also drilling into his minds that, like, not only are we watching you, the birds are always watching you.

The idea that you're always. And I think it's so insane to think about John. in a positive way, to think about John creating this bird. Even after he knows that birds are alive, a lie, what he creates is this sort of like self-policing, you know, this thing that goes on this adventure with him, this construct that goes on this adventure to him with him to Howell's home,

is a representation of like being watched, being policed, being judged, being reported on. And he made that for himself. even after he's been told, actually, A, that was never true. Or B, you're a candidate now, so it's not really like the case. He's like, it's so internalized that it sort of springs forth from him. Yeah. And then there's a question of like how much of that is something that you can't, those elements of your experience and your history and your childhood, like those formative things, the lies, the truths, all of it, they're really hard to move beyond. and you carry them with you.

You know, the thing that Hal said about the bird was like, you created that from your subconscious. It must mean something. And we get to see to your point that it does. Is there an element there potentially of I get to like, this is my version of this thing now? Oh. You know?

A more psychologically healthy version. My parents told me that, and, you know, I'm like, well, the, we build from, well, then the birds are liars into it. And I thought it was interesting that the birds were, you know, when Hal flies off at the end and there's a, there's a, there's a, there's, talks to it as if it's a bird right there. Yeah. John has a little conversation.

And then, of course, is he sitting waiting for Leanna to come back for the interview, putting him through the, the motions of this, this test. And there's the bird on the, on the windowsill, etc. I've ever heard that, I think, I think it was originally a TikTok audio, though, maybe it goes deep. Then the answer is no, unless you've sent it to me. Deeper into the lore. Well, I'm sure it made it way over to reels. some point.

All the birds died in 1986 due to Reagan killing them and replacing them with spies that are now watching us. The birds work for the bourgeoisie. You never heard that? This is TikTok audio? The birds work for the bourgeoisie. Anyway, it sparked, it's part of this whole, like... I watch a lot of my reels on silent and I read the captions.

And then sometimes I'm like, I got to watch it again and turn off the sound. I think about the birds work for the bourgeoisie a lot. But, like, I guess it sparked this like whole, whether it was serious or not, movement. of like a gen Z saying like birds were spies or birds aren't real. Okay, yeah. Yeah. I think it comes from this, or it's related to this anyway, but yeah. Oh, man.

That's what I was thinking of when she was like, the birds are spies with the girls. It's like the birds were for the boucho. And that TikTok influences what we mean when we talk about the perception of the moment that we bring to. Yeah. Oh, man. You haven't sent me a TikTok in a long time, I got to say. I don't go on TikTok anymore. It's been like three years.

used to send me all sorts of... Well, I deleted TikTok for like when the whole thing happened. But then I re-downloaded it once I realized that like we were on there House of R and prestige and I could like I don't have an account anymore really. So I'm not posting on there.

Yeah. But you're consuming. You're lurking. I really just look to see how our numbers are. You're watching like the birds. You're watching just like the birds. Just like looking how our TikTok numbers are going. The question is, are you reporting to the Guardians. Speaking of, Leanna.

So throughout this episode, we're cutting two little glimpses of John's mission abroad with Gray Wolf. Here we seem, we seem make the jump. Then they are ideal conditions, the fried shoot, the sliced side, you know, the branch cutting aside, the near drowning, etc. And then we're back in the 2016 interview and Leon is asking John about the dishonorable discharge. And she says that she's concerned about disobedience. That's the word she uses. And he says, it wasn't about disoherment. obedience. I failed to complete the mission. And she wants to know why and it will prove to be because

of hell. Do you feel like she already knows? And she just wants to like needle him so that he will remember how resentful of Hal he is? Another wedge between John and Hal. The bird's already told her. Yes. And also, of course, it is, the birds have told her. It is the test, right? Like, is he going to, because she says a couple versions throughout this episode of, well, I'm going to need the uncomfortable truth, whether or not you want to share it. Part of the interview process, part of the assessment is, are you going to do the thing you don't want to do because I told you to this as part of the garden? Are you loyal to me?

Not loyal to the chain of command, but loyal to me. Right. Yeah. Interesting, too, to think, I guess, about the, like, long ago promise the bargain between Bernadette and Leanna and the question of, like, okay, what if this Sinestro thing had not happened? Would the guardians, would Leanna have ever followed through on this at all? Or is it only because she and they need someone to challenge Hal now that any of this is happening? That's interesting. Because there wasn't like a promise wasn't really made.

She's like, take my word for it. No, she's like, it would be interesting to us, right? Right. That would warrant our attention. Yeah, warn our attention. But Bernardette's like, you got the job. if you let us shoot apples off your head, you know? Yeah. And walk home alone at night. Do you think there were other bargains made similarly? Other children being sent down the path? Who's a strapping young man who was in the office before?

Was he another we taught? You think he was a plant? I don't know. Maybe. You think he's a bird made human form? Yeah. Could be Barnow. Burnell cursed to live in human form. So she asks,

John, what do you know about Sinestro? And then what do you think of hell? I was asking those questions back to back. No real reason. Just asking questions. You must think something. He was chosen instead of your father. My dad served this country honorably.

He respects anyone whose job it is to protect people. He taught me to do the same. Sinestro was Jordan's teacher, a father figure. He still harbors deep affection for his mentor. It's quite troubling. It's human, John says. We love the people that raise us. even if they're crazy.

Aaron Pierre on the inside of the episode said, you engage with that trauma in a way where you make it something that uplifted you. I thought that was a really, really thoughtful. Relatable. Thoughtful framing. John's respect for Hal Station, despite all of it,

something that he is not only saying here, but we have seen in action. The idea that John can relate to Hal in some way through their experience with flawed mentors, interesting to think about. And then, you know, we've talked about this in the first episode because Hal positions it on the 60 Minutes interview.

It's like, once you've lost your father, there's nothing to fear. And we're like, oh, boy, you'd probably be just terrified all the time. You know what I glean from that? What are you glean? Unreliable. The reminder here in this conversation about Sinestro, this is an episode about what the presence of John's parents meant in his life. life, and we are reminded that Hal did not have, Hal lost his dad when he was a kid. And then

Sinestro swoops in later, but still. We can glean and sort of manipulates him. But like, the kinds of loss they suffer, right? Because this is what the lovely Laura Lennie, Leanna says later, right, where she was like, you know, you'll be isolated, you'll be separated from them. And he was like, yeah, I already was, though. So like the idea that like how Al lost his dad. His dad died. Hal lost his dad. But John lost his parents too. You know what I mean? I grew up missing them. It was like a devastating line. Heartbreaking. You know, they didn't die, but he didn't have parents. He had coaches. You know? Yeah. His brothers had parents. He had coaches. And that's just its own kind of loss. Yeah. Absolutely. John learns his path. Fifth birthday. Fifth. Five. Five.

Five years old. A gun. You gotta wait at least until they're six before you give them the gun. Green Lantern suit. Their little thingies can't. Full on rifle. I'm not on guns. Just in case that's not clear.

This was obviously shocking, right? Wade, I asked for crayons. Your father and I think five is old enough to know about your destiny. They tell the bird lie. Five is old enough to know about your destiny. It's just so charged and so loaded here. His brothers, I thought this was interesting too. not just their reaction, but the fact that they say you always choose him, right?

So he is chosen. Yeah, in a different way. But in a way that has never helped him. Yeah. And then this is where Bernadette says he can't worry about your brothers, which was obviously quite sad. Quite, quite, quite, quite sad. And the loneliness, you know, thinking across the character set about the loneliness and how that manifests and what sparked it. And all they needed was the gal in Rushville, be she a hot granny or a cool sheriff.

Also hot. Well, yeah. Hot and cool at the same time. Rushville. Can cure what ails you. A lot of hot women. Rushville real place? Yeah.

It is. I learned. Yeah. Lost a football game. In the present. Leon asked Sean, why did you choose to be a sniper? And we were watching him in the past and kind of tandem with his scene. dealing the wound with the gunpowder, et cetera.

And she asks, you know, Leanna not subtle, as John points out, right? Do you like the distance? He's like, is that it supposed to be a metaphor, which made me laugh. He does say, like, I like being alone. I don't get distracted. So John's version of detachment, isolation, loneliness, the absence of those bonds, she asks if he resents his parents for the rigor. That's the word she uses, rigor of his training.

And he says, I can't really explain family to someone who doesn't have one, but rigorous kind of comes with the territory. So this is like one of the many moments in the episode where we see a, if not, full outright embrace acceptance, forgiveness for everything that his parents ever did, that John is in a place of love with his parents. and to some extent, at least in this episode, attempting to justify to other people, to himself, maybe, how this all went. But that question of, like, did you even want to be a sniper? Just all of the ways that were encouraged to think, what choices did John really make for himself

and why what was a part of the path and why all of it was a part of the path? The shooting lessons, we cut back to the past here and see what that rifle's for. So initially shooting apples. John Jr. and John Sr. are shooting apples for target practice. And then Bernadette comes out, laments the lack of progress on the satellite because she wants to communicate with the guardians. And John Sr. is like, we're out of like the diamond money ran out.

We don't have enough parts. That was interesting. And John has put the apple on his head and calls out to them, hey, like William Tell. It's cultured. Well, folklore here? Yeah, cultured. Very interesting. This is obviously astonishing to see here. John asks his dad to shoot the apple off his head, and Bernadette sanctions it, wants to see if John is afraid, tells John Sr.

Fear is contagious, and says, this is what it takes for both of you. But that is such a good thing to think about, the idea of contagious. fear. Again, I think about the fear soup that John grew up in. But like, you know, if we think about like how going to visit Sinestro and this idea of fear is a contagion, fear is something you can be infected with. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. A little bit of a little bit of a shake from John Sr. here as he points a rifle at his child and prepares to shoot out off his head. But he pulls the trigger. Big flinch here. from Bernadette, and then the cheeseburger reward. And in 2016, then Leanna asked if John loves his parents and he smiles and he says, of course, and he owes them everything, and he will repay them by becoming a lantern. We get a few more gray wolf flashes.

John kind of building his bug nest. Sniper nest, growing the beard. Smorgas bug. No. You're still workshopping it. We'll get there by the end. Maybe. And in the past, John's family is driving through town at night in a van.

And John's brothers are mocking him for not knowing the lyrics, the outcast lyrics, for not being black enough, they say. They say that he's afraid of their parents. This was an interesting moment. The idea of, like, swapping fears, right? Fear of other things being, uh, uh, exchange for the fear of letting down his parents. Like, they're saying, you can't be afraid. We have to condition fear out of you. And then the thing he comes to fear is not being good enough for them.

I thought it was interesting that, like, um, So this idea of John being trained not only to not fear and all this other stuff like that, but the way his brothers are making fun of him is like basically you sound like a white guy. Yeah. Right? Yes. And I was just thinking about how when we were at Comic-Con and the Green Lantern panel happened and Aaron Pierre opens his mouth and this beautiful British accent comes out. And like the way that like Charles and Van were reacted at where there were like, it's always a British man in one of these roles, you know?

And so it's just sort of like this idea of John Stewart as like someone who has been bred to be desirable, not just for like the fear and his military prowess and stuff like that, but this like sort of white passing language that he uses. His brothers go from mocking him to feeling quite scared in a hurry here because his parents stop the van and they say, get out. You're going to walk home alone. Horrible. Deeply, deeply, deeply dismay. and John returns home to find his mother sitting in his room on the edge of the bed, his bed, waiting for him, clearly terrified, right? Like, what if he doesn't?

She was like, oh, is that the move? I'm not sure. Make it home. And then when he arrives, she says, I saved you a pork shop and then leaves. Right? There's no, like, embrace or comfort. But she doesn't want him to see how shaken she is. She is.

Yes. And then. Because I don't know if you do. know this, but fear is contagious. It is indeed. He collapses onto the bed and just sobs. Yeah. This was absolutely heartbreaking. In 2016, Leanna's asking about the stakeout still. Why didn't you push the panic button and then kind of connecting these things across time? Your training must have made you lonely, right? That isolation, Leanna says, appears to be in direct opposition to your programming. And John says, humans aren't programmed. We're raised.

This is what do I mean about the episode just, like, very often saying the thing. And they try to lampshade it by him being like earlier. Is that a metaphor? You know what I mean? But it's just sort of like, we're going to show you the flashback. And then Leon is going to do some psychoanalysis. And then John's going to say something like a little pert or whatever. And then we're going to roll forward.

Yeah. And I just think that like a few more passes on this episode, we could have gotten to a place where we get all of the same messaging without it sort of being so constantly telegraphed throughout the episode. I did like, I don't understand the distinction while there is one. I thought that the Air and Pierre delivery there was just fantastic. Also struck, of course, by the fact that he did not actually respond to the question about being lonely here, which feels very notable. And also, I think this is another moment where there's not just, of course, the insight about John and his family, but about the guardians here. Like they do think of everybody as a soldier to be programmed, right? And this is where we get that.

You know, you'll be even more isolated if you're chosen. And he's like, no problem. This is where we get that. I grew up missing them moment, which is, you know, just so sad. Young John learns the truth. When we flashback, we see that his mother is trying to contact the guardians. And she tells John, they're not seeing what they need to see. This was really tough.

and you're still scared, right? They're not saying what they need to see. The birds are telling them. And he says, then the birds are liars. Prove it. Bernadette wants John to shoot an apple off his dad's head. This is the prove it test here. This was quite intense.

John, who is a child, asked to shoot an apple, point a gun and shoot an apple off his dad's head. John's senior's like, shouldn't we build up to this? And Bernadette says John could shoot a moth out of the sky. Of course, it's not really about his accuracy. as a young sniper. It's having to stare down the terror of what would happen if something went wrong here. Now, this is interesting because we, of course, know that John Sr. Very the click in the dead, Sharon Stone, have to say.

Oh, Sherry and Stone. Sorry, it's a very important movie to me. I love that for you. I do. Gary Senes is her dad, and he's strong up. Yeah, yeah, yes. Gene Hackman's like, shoot him down. She doesn't happen.

No. It doesn't turn out well. No. For good old baby Sharon Stone. on the house are going to turn out front, like we know that John Sr. is alive, right? We've heard in the future, but it's not really what it's about.

That's another critique I have this episode, though, because, like, in terms of, like, inertia or momentum, what are the stakes on this interview where we already know that John got the job? For me, it's seeing how he navigates it, and also deepening our understanding of what the guardians are after and why, because we're so on our, it feels like to say,

on our guard with the guardians, but we are so, you know, we're... Skeptical. Yeah, we're very skeptical of them and are meant to be clearly. And to see, you know, how John is responding. So, like, a moment, like, the point you're gone at your father and try to shoot an apple off his head, the fact that John lowers his gun there is, like, I didn't wonder if John Sr. was going to have his head blown off because we know he's alive. But it's like, what is young John in that moment going to do? Yeah. And I think that's interesting.

I do think that's interesting. And I think all of this episode is interesting. I just think, I do not think this episode is in the same county state country as the Acklead episodes where we're like, we already know how this turned out. So that's not the comp I'm making. But I do think from a like tension point of view, it is an interesting exploration of the psychology of a character. Yes. And I would love to have that married with a plot propulsion that feels a bit higher stakes than like, We know John's going to pass this interview, and we know that he's not going to die when his mom sends to walk him home at night, and we know that he doesn't shoot his dad in the head.

Maybe we wonder if he shot his mom in the head because she's not around, you know? That was on my mind in that scene. Like, oh, God, is this about to go horribly, horribly wrong? John is in his room drawing when his mom enters, and he hides the sketchbook. This was also quite sad. she's like, show it to me, admires his gifts, tells him that she knows he'd rather be doing that than this. And then tells him, this is one of the kind of course correction moments,

loving your dad is just as natural as drawing, right? John says, I was scared. It's normal to not want to hurt the people that you love. So confronting that even though that was where this all started with Bernadette saying to John Sr., like a version of, it's normal to not want to hurt the people you love or leave them, have them navigate life without you. Yeah.

their son, their boy, like, was wondering if that was an okay thing to think and feel. Tells him that she made up the birds, so he learns this year, and he knows this moving forward. Every time he looks at a bird, he knows that this was a lie that his parents told him. And it also tells him the guardians know you're better than Hal. You're better. And that they are giving John the same gift, calls it a gift that Hal had, which was navigating life without fear. tells him he can stop if he wants, right? If learning all this, if you don't want to keep going, you don't have to.

And John decides, no, let's go shoot. I'm ready. I'll go wake your dad. No, not dad. You. That's a great moment. Really good. You was heavy there.

You was heavy. And then he tells her after the firing the shot successfully. I don't like cheeseburgers. Hate them. Hate cheeseburgers. Leanna is still pushing for the discharge details. If he wants the job, he's going to have to share comfortable or not. and then we learn.

The nine months of staking out the target, John got fucked because Hal, who was drunk and chatting with the Defense Secretary's deputy at a titty bar, just flew in solo, blew up the compound. She just tweeted it out. He's been working on this for nine months

and Al just tweeted it out. Flew off with Grey Wolf and dropped him at Guantanamo. Some very tough moments for Hal Jordan in this episode. That won't be the last one. And General Schafez asked John to sacrifice himself for cover, right?

Do you know, do you understand what you're agreeing to and John does? So Hal is the reason that John was dishonorably discharged, that he was stripped of that he lost his military career? I mean, this is a huge extra insight that we have into the level of resentment that John would feel toward Hal Jordan. I thought another interesting nugget here, though, was that we will learn from Leanna John's like, well, he was following orders, right? The good soldiers follow orders, crosshair, bad batch, like, through line of all of this.

And Leon is like, actually, he wasn't. And in fact, a problem we're having with Hal Jordan is that he doesn't listen and does what he wants. Now, there's the tension between, like, okay, well, is that my mission? Then if so, it doesn't matter if I'm comfortable, right, John's relationship to the mission, the command. There's that tension. But, like, this was. Because we're in an episode where we're like, the Guardians, like, what's up with them? Mm-hmm.

The fact that Hal isn't just doing what they say isn't entirely here. Like, there is that this guy does what he wants and is a rogue. But also, like, flew and drunk from a titty bar conversation and dropping people off at Guantan. Not ideal. Not great. Not our faith. But deeply skeptical of this authority. Yeah.

And capable of making decisions for himself. I am awaiting my mug that says Sinestro was right. You'll have to clear that Thanos was right mugs out of the cupboard. In order to... I'll smash them to the floor. But, like, yeah, the idea that Hal is the character who's not only doing what the Guardian say feels to me coming out of this episode like a good thing. 100%. So that's rich.

I love you, Laura Linney. I do not trust the Guardian. Exactly. And to be clear, I never have. John is processing the discharge. He's... He's... wallowing. Yes, he is. He's upset. And we understand why. And this is a real, my adult son get out of

my house. Yeah. I love all of the old. Yeah. How long are you to stay here until you kick me out? Yeah. I loved all of this. Um, finds out that his mom applied to art school for him and he got in. So the path is not changed. She tells him. Courage is fear that said it's prayer, son. You can be worried, but you have to be brave enough to still try. Because one day, every little boy is going to want to be just like you. But until then, you have to make yourself happy. And John says, since when did you care if I was happy. And she says, still mad about those crayons. It's great. It's a great exchange. Here's my question. Do you feel like she sent him, she did this art school application as a way to make him an even better more well, because

it is positioned here as her saying, make yourself happy in the meantime. Right. You are going to be the green lantern of Earth. But you can do your little art thing for now if it'll make you feel good. But like a more sinister layer of this could just be like, well, we did the military thing. Now if you've got this artistic training that will make you an even better candidate for Green Lanternhood. And the fact that like when they come to find him for his test, the test is an art as an art one. Sure. I guess the question is, I think that's entirely in play. I don't trust. Especially. Space mom or otherwise.

The framing of like the path hasn't changed. We just are walking a. slightly different. Yeah, but she isn't like, she isn't like, but this is like a way to get your extracurriculars that'll make your college application look even better. She's saying, this will be, you'll love this. You love art. You'll love this.

But I feel like in her head, she's like, and they'll love it. They'll love that you're an artist. I guess the question is how much do we think that the stewards or anyone on earth really knows and understands about being a green lantern? I don't know. Because since Hal is the first,

On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, like, is there at a level of... They know everything about Sinestro. Like, I don't... But do we think that they would have an understanding, that anybody would have an understanding that, like, artistic ability would be an attribute, and a trait of consequence in terms of forging a construct? If you're making a construct. But do they, like, do they, like, what... I feel like if you thought about that. To glean.

To glean it. From observing. So I think it's completely in play. How much publicity has how been doing on the television? But it seems like a lot. Yeah. That guy's always on TV. He's forever, he's like, Barbara Walters, let me tell you about my constructs.

That guy's always on TV. Yeah. The difference in the constructs is so interesting, right? Because so we've got this like, John is at art school. He's drawing his mommy issues and his bird issues at the same time, right? And then this guy comes in and he's like, make a watch. Yeah. Right?

All of it. And we were tracking this from the beginning, this idea of like what John makes versus what Howl makes. And I think this is really interesting. I was reading a bit into this. And the rap has a great article about this episode where they interviewed Vanessa and Stephen and the rest of them. And Vanessa says Guy Gardner and Hal are allowed to be imaginative. They're allowed to think of these like incredibly silly things if they want to. They're allowed to think of incredibly fun, big, large things, like how he'll come in with a giant fist.

John has to be precise he can't miss. So like another way in which the bar is in a different place for John than it is for them. So like every single gear in that watch has to work or else, you know, it's a fail. Whereas. And so this idea that like how specifically, Guy Gardner I'm less familiar with, but how specifically inventing what they call like hollow constructs, right? And coming at it with like a, quote, cockpit mentality, this idea just sort of like as a flyboy of improvising. And I'm doing something big and dramatic amount, like a giant green fist or like whatever the case may be. And John is like, I have precisely thought through as an architect or as an artist or whatever case may be, all of the inner workings of this.

And it is all perfect. This is Jeff Johns in Green Lantern Rebirth describes John's projection as being, quote, built from the inside out. You look close. You can see every nut and bolt that makes it work. And, you know, the idea of the internal mechanism being so crucial to how, John is forging constructs, and, you know, part of the show's intention is for us to understand the internal nature of the characters who were watching. I loved seeing the reverence with which John, because, you know, there's the first test, right, draw the building run. And then the second test very quickly is like, watch, okay, here's the ring.

And the reverence on John's face as he looks at that ring, future timeline of the show, the past for us watching episode two, the reverence on his face when he saw the suit, when he saw. when he saw the lantern, there is like a kind of holy quality to this. Yeah, the hero worship, I grew up with this, like watching this on the TV and now it's on my, on my finger. Yeah, and so what is... Whose ring is that? Test ring. Test ring? So they just have random rings?

I mean. So they could just give John a ring. Well, they've got their rules. But the system is imperfect, as they like to say, as they like to remind us. You know, so what is changing, right? the courage is fear line. We have this kind of like healthier evolution of an idea. And then we have like the,

okay, this is this thing that I have spent my whole life working toward and here it is. And oh my God, like here it is. And I get to put it on my finger and make something with it for the first time. What is kind of entrenched. The ability for John, you know, we've talked about the sketchpad and the interrogation scene in episode one, you know, thinking about form but also function, right? And like, beauty and the intention that he brings in his perspective and what his eye is seeing, thinking

about the Stephen Williams comment you shared earlier about wanting this episode to be rooted in John's perspective and what he sees. Well, like, that's inextricable from how he's forging his constructs. What does he see? What does he, what is he able to understand about the intricacy of the thing that Hal's not thinking about at all? The idea that John's constructs in general in the comics are more lasting than Howells, that Howls will just poof immediately because, again, they're hollow and they're not thought through.

And John is like, here is an intricately designed thing that I have made. And with the bird, you know, in episode two, the many aspects of like. So don't you think then like it, well, it popped out of his subconscious, but let's pretend that he like methodically decided. But like he would be thinking about breathing and the heartbeed and the bones and the heart and the, you know, the circulatory system and everything that he knows about birds and he would put it into that bird. And then keep it alive. Right. And then Hal would be like bird-shaped bird, you know? And then that sort of thing poofs.

But, yeah. Thought about the bones. Thought about the circulatory system. Yeah. Thought about the stomach. You can move on. Respiratory system? Sure.

Sure. Sure. I don't know. The soul of the bird? Yeah. I like that. And that's really sad then that he got squashed. If he had a soul, I mean, it was sad anyway.

It was sad anyway. I hope he comes back. You mentioned leap. of faith already. I hope he comes back as well. What is a leap of faith, if not another, are you afraid, test in a way, right? And the answer doesn't have to be no. It's, I'm going to jump anyway. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. We have seen Coyote v. Acme and it was delightful. We had a great time at Coyote v. Acme. Wonderful movie. Incredibly entertaining. What I recommend seeing that in the theater because the crowd was having just a wonderful time. See in the theater,

also, if you're sitting at home and you're like, I'm not really sure I'm going to like it. Can I just say for the Better Call Saul fans, that this was like, it was so. It was so. a Better Call Saul episode in the most positive way. Legal drama. Albuquerque, loser lawyer, shitty cars, billboards. It was so better call Saul. Class action lawsuit against Chinese suits. Even at one point, kind of a similar, like, their style?

Yeah. You're on to something. Like, Will Forte is great. That movie, but I was deeply surprised they didn't get Bob Oden Kirk. They should have. It would have been amazing. He would have. Oh, man.

This was where Leanna asked John to confirm that Howl's the reason he was discharged. she does, and then she lists all the other things that he can blame Howe for. A handy kind of summation. Wedger. Your complicated village. Wedgerama. Your distance from your brothers. I'm just curious, you still harbor any ill will?

Any ill will? Tell him. And says, would you be comfortable replacing Howe Jordan? Understanding that he would be under the impression that you're simply his backup. Are those my orders? If you get the job, yes. These would be your orders. Well, then it doesn't matter if I'm comfortable with it.

How true is that going to be? you've already noted and reminded us that told Hal about the Manhunter. Yeah, he did. Speaking of Hal, John goes home to tell his parents the big news, right? It's finally happened, and Hal Jordan said he up the table. Howl ruined that as well. And he drops the Midwest Hux Stables line, which is not good. Insane work.

Terrible. Insane work from Hal. Absolutely terrible from Hal. he's like doing the the kind of Hal Jordan act inside but then takes Junior outside he's coach tailoring on the inside

time for some real talk from Hal here yeah oh did you want to share the news with your parents oh god sorry for oh no I don't give a flying fuck what you were hoping for but I'm guessing it's this ring right here and I don't need a fucking sidekick and I don't want to

fucking back up. And the only way you're going to get this ring is over my dead fucking body. Don, don't, done. We'll start training Monday morning looking forward to it, Jr. and then flies off. So Hal is deeply pissed and deeply threatened right away. He knows that this is. Yeah. And he's right. He is. That's the thing. He's like he's shitty to John this whole time. But like, he's right. Theory Corner. Yeah. Let's do it. If you don't want to hear. No major comic spoilers in this instance, but some theories from our listeners. Yeah, if you don't want to hear these theories, we'll see you in a few days for Buffy and then next Monday for Lanterns. God, episode four. I'm so four already.

Sheesh. Theory Corner and comic spoilers. Ooh. Oh, that was fun. That was really fun, Carlos. There we go. Great job. All right.

Wonderful. Take us through it. Okay. Rapid fire. Yeah. Several, several emails. Is Laura Linney actually a manhunter in disguise? I don't think so, but.

We got a lot of emails about it. Interesting. I say no. I think that shot in the trailer of Jasmine Seafs Jones in front of the, like, looming large, a lot of people thought that was a manhunter thing. So I think they're having trouble letting go of the idea that. Even though you always say to hold it loosely. Hold it. I think that it feels, it seems very important inside of this series of what the series is focusing on so far to actually have the guardians be involved.

Several emails. What if everyone in the town except for Carrie is a manhunter? This I kind of like. We got a lot of emails about this. One of the first comments on the pod when it dropped last week and then they just kept building from there. And I was like, ooh. Yeah. So everyone's a manhunter.

Ben, Ailey Ben? Ailey Ben. I mean, that fucker. This would. Bill. Other Bill. Zoe. Murf.

Jesse. You know, we were talking about the town hall scene last week. Oh, yeah, yeah. And like what? There just seems to be. It was really like body snatcher. You know what I mean? Some level of shared awareness about something.

Yeah. Yeah. Coach, this is what we were talking about, right? Again, maybe it's just to get this guy out of here. But there definitely seems to be some. Okay. Town of Manhunters. I kind of, what do you think?

I kind of like this. I'm not ready to say yes, but I think this is intriguing. I like the idea of there being more than one Manhunter. I'll say that much right now. Yeah. The whole there's one. Yeah. More than one.

I like that as well. All right. Ken says, as great as Justin's, we already mentioned this a little bit. But as greatest Jasmine Seifas Jones was in this episode of Lanterns, I can't help but wonder where Nicole Ari Parker comes in because Jones is still playing the role of John's mother in 2016. There's also older actor for John's dad as well as at least one of his brothers. How likely do you think it is that one of them is responsible for what happened to Hal in 2026? John Jr. has already established to be a pretty good shot. I say zero.

I don't feel like that's. I don't think that's what we're watching. I think that would be a bad story. Okay. Okay. Casey says they said it can take the form of any species, so perhaps the manhunter is a horse. Incredible. A lot of horses on the making family ranch. Casey gets it.

We're just asking questions. We're just asking all the questions. Of course. Oh, God. That's a house of the dragon reference. That is the house of the dragon reference. What are you talking about? Okay, Rachel wrote in to say, and this is a little bit of comics lore, the simplest answer to solving the there is only one,

earth green lantern, but where does that put John Stewart, is in many recent iterations of the comics lore, John Stewart is either lantern of another sector, or as a special status or operates freelance, not bound to sector 2814. It tracks, given what they are showing so far, that he has a unique prodigiousness, and

it seems the guardians are keenly interested in him and maybe looking to do things differently going forward as things in this new DCU are escalating. The ring may have found and chosen Guy Gardner at the moment of Hal's death, because of his worth, I guess, and proximity.

Perhaps John was off world or just farther away. The ring doesn't have to do the Guardian's bidding, but the Guardians pivoted after that pilot episode final moment and said, fair enough, the ring chose Guy, but we chose John and you have Omni jurisdiction with this new ring, since things seem to be bleeding between sectors and beyond our grasp to contain them. And you've proven yourself agile enough to handle these threats. And thus, both Guy and John can participate in any and all upcoming DCU projects. Could be.

Yeah. Here's the thing I feel that we can be sure of. James Gunn is going to want Nathan Philean to continue to be in all DCU projects because he puts him in everything. Now, I love Nathan Phileon, so I don't mind it. But I don't think we're like getting rid of Guy Gardner. So we've got to find a way we know that John Stewart is. Well, all right. So this is the answer to how.

Yeah. Right. I like it. Okay. I'm open to other possibilities as well. I can do without Guy Gardner person. I'm just saying there's no way. This is like there's no way.

There's no way. Last one, not least, this is an Oppenheimer Green Lantern crossover. Matt says the guardians seem to desire peacekeepers who are essentially devoid of emotion. The Green Lanter Corps were a backup plan. This desire to strip emotion from decisions is seen in their initial creation of the Manhunters and their creation of the Third Army to destroy the Green Lantern Corps. They've even lobotomized members of their own species like Ganthet, who displayed too much emotion and individuality.

What emotions, if any, do you feel are most relevant to policing slash peacekeeping? I understand that you folks have covered Oppenheimer this week. And the Green Lantern itself has been compared to a nuclear bomb in this show. In Oppenheimer, there is extensive discussion about the power escalation of nuclear weapons, atom bomb and hydrogen bombs. Who this bomb should be used against and who should have decision-making capacity regarding the usage of these weapons. In the Lantern comics, the Green Lanterns initially could not be used to make constructs capable of lethal force. When the Sinestro Corps started a war against the Green Lanterns, many of the United States, of the Green Lantern Corps were getting destroyed because they couldn't make lethal constructs.

While the Sinester Corps was ultimately defeated in that storyline, Senestro felt he had won as he made the Guardians change their philosophy regarding the rings and the shift and shift galactic opinion regarding the Green Lanterns. Do you two feel that the tremendous power of the Green Lantern is really necessary for intergalactic policing? Other Lantern Corps, like the Blue Lantern Corps, would wield far less powerful constructs. I just think intergalactic policing is a problematic concepts to begin with. I agree. I think it's mind your own patch. Yes. You know, and don't feel like you get to. Listen, here's a good check to run. Yeah. Would Palpatine be like I'm in? Yeah. Then we're out. What about Hux though? If Hux proposes it. We're in on Hux. We're in on Hux. We have some questions.

We're in on Hux. First order. Maybe. Evil Empire. No. Star Killer Bees. Huh. Huh. He's a ginger with a cat. I don't know. I got to support my guy hugged. All right. Anything else?

No. I'm excited for episode four. Super excited for Puffy season five. What a treat. What a thrill. Yeah. Thank you to our guardians. Yeah.

I just want to shout out. I believe the Sean Fennacy Oppenheimer meme was the work of who made that. Carlos. Carlos. Jomey's getting all the credit for that. I want to make sure that Carlos gets credit for it. Shout out Jomey, who does a lot of things. But in that particular atomic bomb of a meme,

Carlos' your book, yeah. Executing an artistic vision of excellence and renown. Loved it. What a wonderful Instagram Carousall that was. Thank you, too, Carlos. Yeah. Scott, Jacob, Arjuna, Jomey, the whole squad. Thank you to you.

Thank you to you. Thanks to how. I would travel the entire galaxy with you happily. Would you? Absolutely. I love that. Absolutely. Think of the things we could make with the Green Lantern. You didn't make a sleazy comment about how Jordan rummaging in your box or anything. Anything you want to do here at the end of things?

What are they going to put on the carousel? That's a great question. You know? It's just for pushing everyone to try new things, I guess. I'll let him stretch. Yeah. There you go. Here's my value.

I'll make a dick joke for episode four. I believe in you. See you soon. Bye!