House of R - ‘Lanterns’ Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

Mal and Jo dive deep into Episode 5 of ‘Lanterns’ as the action ramps up heading into the final stretch of the season!They break down the pivotal chaos that ensues, the latest Manhunter theories surrounding the Macons in Rushville, and the complicated morals and relationships driving each character down their individual paths.(00:00) Intro(04:37) Opening Snapshot(29:25) Kerry Joins Flashback Bangs Hall of Fame(56:54) Hal’s Final (?) Lesson to John(01:12:27) Zoe’s Final Lesson to Noah(01:24:22) Hal and Hal and Kerry(01:31:39) Zoe Gets Under John’s Skin(01:47:35) Experiencing the Pleasures of the Galaxy(01:50:41) RIP Ali-Ben(02:02:16) John Phones Home(02:04:57) Hal-o (It’s Like the Video Game 'Halo' but It’s Hal)(02:08:34) Gunfight at the Rushville Motel(02:15:45) “I Don’t Want It”(02:26:04) Theory Corner & Comics SpoilersHosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to House of Art. I'm Joanna Robinson, and she is someone who has experienced the pleasures of the galaxy. It's Mallory, Rubin. You know, it's less about preference and more about opportunity. Set them up, knock them down. It's Lanterns, episode five. Mallory and I are here to talk about the latest episode of the HBO series. Lanters were really excited to dive deep into that right after this.

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Terms and conditions apply. All right, quick programming reminders. Yes. It's almost your birthday. Sheesh. I'm old. You're beautiful and luminous. I'm washed.

Your creamy coolness will always delight me. It's almost your birthday and we're doing a very special episode for your birthday later this week, which is Mallory Rubin Pivot to Horror Special. That's right. We're seeing Resident Evil. Yes. We're going to talk about that. Yeah. You're going to watch it from my lap as we mentioned with the Buffy Pod last week.

Yeah. And then we're also going to talk about some of the other horror movies that you've been watching lately. And then what I was going to ask the bad babies to do, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com, is send some other suggestions of other horror movies that you should maybe check out. You have watched Nosephiratu. Yes, and weapons. And weapons. You're going to watch Obsession. I am.

Maybe backrooms. If time permitting, yeah. But, like, what are some other recent horror classics that you think Mallory would enjoy that hopefully does not have any animal mutilation in it? I would prefer to avoid that, though. I know that's waiting for me in one of the films we just mentioned. Yes. The Vovov a bitch you're thinking of watching? That was, I would say, there were a lot of recommendations to check that out in the Instagram comments.

Yeah. For the little, the weapons, IG reel that I posted. You know, I've just dipped a toe into the bloody waters. Let's take the plunge. I'm eager to keep waiting further. Let's just dive in, like, Colin Firth's to Mr. Darcy. in a cool, cool pond, but make it horror movies. So that's what we're doing literally this week.

I am. And then more lanterns coverage. Yeah. And something else that I haven't figured out yet while you're gone on vacation. That's right. And will you just do a direct-to-camera reflection on how much you miss me while I'm gone? It's the Avengers Endgame like re-release, right? So maybe I'll just spend the podcast recounting the plot.

lot of Avengers Endgame. Is that something like I could use my time? Just solo into the camera. Sounds like it would be a pretty popular podcast. And I feel like the runtime will be about correct for one of our podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds great. I look forward to consuming it from afar. I'll miss you while I'm gone. When I get when I get back, we get to, I mean, we're just mere days away at that point from Vision. We get to revisit Wanda Vision. What a thrill. It's your birthday. Then you're on vacation. And then it's our anniversary and then it's my birthday. Half a decade together. That's wild. We have yet to make a dinner a dinner plan. We need to do that.

Sure. We need to settle on a date night, you know? Should we invite the team? Yes. They're here and they're listening to us. So yes, I think we should invite them. You guys available? Let us know.

Lanterns. Episode 5 is what's coming up. Why don't you follow the pod wherever you follow podcasts? Why don't you follow us on social at House of Our Pod? Do it. As I mentioned, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Spoiler warning, Lanterns episode 5, comic book context here and there, perhaps. Not much today, honestly.

Yeah. And any sort of like deeper comic lore or especially, like, this episode's really a prime for theory corner. Sure. So we're going to put Theory Corner in the sort of bottom section of the pod, which is sort of where the comic book lore. I mean, not to say we won't touch upon it. here and there, obviously. But I'm saving my, like, biggest pitch unless I get impatient and just sort of, like, you know, pour it all out earlier. Yeah.

Until later. There's no spoilers there. It's just rampant speculation, you know. But I feel like we got a lot of clues in this episode. Yeah. I don't think I'll be able to wait until the end of the post. No, not that you have to, but like, no, no, we'll talk about it. I'm just saying, like, will I wait to lay out my full case?

Maybe. Intriguing. Intriguing. Let's go now to the opening snapshot. up. All right, starting with our overall impressions of episode five, many people on the internet are saying the episode title is lights out. We're recording this in advance. It's not been officially listed anywhere, so that might not be the name of the episode at all, but that is what I am seeing. What we do know from the credits on our screener is that this is directed again by Gita Patel

and written by Justin Britt Gibson. Justin's a great writer. But something that I didn't realize until I was doing research for this episode, is that he is the brother of actor Daryl Britt Gibson, who played Bishop on Euphoria, among other things. I love Daryl Brick Gibson. And so that's just like really fun. And then they are the sons of Donna Britt,

who is an incredible writer. So this is a very talented family, which I didn't know. But Justin Brit Gibson wrote this episode. Mallory Rubin, I would just say in any other show, we would call this like the battle episode. Would you not agree?

How does this episode work for you? Does it feel like a battle episode? and if it's so, like, how does it compare to sort of some of the other ones that we would, we often talk about? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a version of this season where this is the finale. I was sort of, I was surprised in a good way by how much happened in this episode and how consequential, not only the action was, but the character beats, you know, we've been talking since the pilot, called pilot, about the glimpses we got at the end sequence that jumped to 2026 of the decimated, Macon Ranch and like wondering when we were going to see that.

Did it happen somewhere between the 2016? Do you think Ailey Ben is okay? Ailey Ben on my mind throughout. In Smithereens, I believe. I mean, so many moments to think back on Whalen because of all of the, I've activated my skeletal bomb and am prepared to detonate. And so then, of course, any time you think of Whalen, you think of the alien, the alien, and then you think of Ailey Ben and all of our really good jokes about.

alien names. Potentially alien. I'm so sorry. You were talking about the decimated Macon ranch. It's just so like wondering when that was

going to happen. Was it going to happen in the 2016? Not only in the show, but in the canonical timeline, right? I would not have predicted episode five. So that was fun and cool.

I thought that the action itself, you know, the dark cloud, the darkness like vision cam and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. First person shooter sort of stuff.

Yeah. That was fine. But I mean, less riveting than the absolutely absorbing one-on-one knock-down, drag-out, beat-down fight between Hal and John, which was the real action. And I think in a way that applies to the show overall, where these individual dynamics are the thing that have been so delicious. So coming out of what seems like largely resolution, I mean, make spoilers, we said, like, William Macon is dead. His human heart was cut out of his chest. Zoe Macon.

He is dead. Crystal heart cut out of the chest, bullet through the brain. Does that mean we're done with the... Anton. Dead. Exploded. Went down sad. I don't know.

That's some great scenes, but then at the very end, exploded in a little cyclone. That seems like a really fun way to go. Fun? Do you think he kind of went wee right before he died? Probably. That was probably. We just didn't hear it over the beeping. Don't you think?

Yeah. We just couldn't hear it over the beeping of the skeletal. the skeletal bomb. And the dark, the sound of the dark, the washing of smoke monster. You know, I overall, I thought like the back half

of this episode, the sequence between John and Howe, also the John Howe car scene at the beginning, all of the John Howe stuff was really great. I thought the final John stretch of this episode,

the decision that he makes to reject the ring, the scene with John and Leanna, I thought that was just riveting. It was wonderful. I thought that on the Manhunter front, some of those scenes I thought were really great. Some of them did not work as well for me.

And also I have some sort of like in-story logic questions about the things the characters are doing as a result of those scenes that I'm like eager to talk through today. Yeah. So overall I liked the episode. I thought it was really action-packed and fun and like took the characters to at this point in the season and honestly kind of overall a surprising place. So I'm really excited to see where this goes from here. I think we both, as we were alluding to in the intro, have a, there's maybe another Manhunter, like, candidate inside of this episode, right? At least one. Yeah.

And so I don't know that we're finished with The Manhunter of it all. I don't necessarily know that. But the way that this episode went did at least open up the possibility of, are we moving out of Manhunter into a larger Guardian Sinestro, like, finished the season, potentially? I don't know. But I also think, like, if we think back to that. that True Detective comp that we started with. Let's go back to season one. In season one of True Detective, and in season two and in season three.

But in season one, especially, right, you've got the two timelines. And you're really solving the same case across time. In both timelines. And everything you thought you resolved in the previous timeline or left open-ended or whatever gets for real resolved in the present day. And so if they're like, got it, got them, found the Manhunter in 2016, I really feel like 2026 is like, oops, we left a Manhunter on the ground and we got to figure out where that person is. Should we just say right now, like, we're on Noah Watch?

I mean, we've been on Noa Watch. I mean, it's like, we have been the whole time. I think it's impossible. Frankly, to the point where there were so many indicators in this episode that it could think they're trying to like, wait, is that not the case? I don't think they're trying to hide it. Yeah. How that manifests, I think will be interesting. But like, yeah.

We'll go through the clues as we. I think Zoe, uh, Zoe giving him like a, what did I teach you, like. For sure. And like Billy being kept back to basically guard him. And also a lot of Carrie stuff too. I think. I think Billy is also a manhunter, but a less successful one. Tough for Billy.

Yeah. Because here's, okay, fine, you're right. I am impatient. It's hard not to talk about. If I think there's a lot of like, bum, bum, bum. But I do think when we're regrowing John's skin and she's like the machine took a little tissue sample of you, right? Yeah.

Which the machine also probably did when it cured Macon Senior's cancer. Yeah. And which the machine also did when it re-grew Carey's Pinky. That's right. So my thought is when the machine takes a tissue sample, it grows a manhunter out of that tissue sample. So that Billy is the offspring of Macon Senior and that Noah is carries offspring. This is my theory as well.

It does also make me. And it would grow a jaw. but an alien blew up their machine. Well, it still makes me nervous. Oh, yeah. I am deeply nervous that the machine is his DNA example. Yeah, tissue and DNA, which is worrying, obviously, and how, you know, the weenie blew up.

They were, I mean, obviously a lot of the town blew up. How much of the storage at the hospital is made to withstand a attack? How many people besides Billy and Noah? Like, Billy and Noah for sure, I think. I would say that this episode, and we will, every time we get in a scene, we'll hit the evidence. I would say coming out of this episode, I would put the NOAA likelihood at like 100%, 99%. I would put NOAA at like 98%. And I would put Billy at like 89, 85, something like that.

75. But just like a less, like a janky-er one. Less success. That's incredible. This is so dumb. And that's why I feel like, I feel like Zoe's like, oh, I'm going to take more, I'm to be more proactive with Noah because we didn't do a great job with Billy, but I'm going to do a better job. Wouldn't that fit the overall story of Stardom Young, you know?

What about you? What did you think of the episode overall? I loved this episode. And one of the reasons I loved it is because, you know, historically, I bump on quote-unquote battle episodes when I don't, I think the action is just there for action's sake. You made the point about like all of this is, a lot of this is anchored in character stuff. And I think that's not just true, that's not, definitely not just true for Hal and John. But, you know, something that they said in the official podcast last week, because they were talking about, thinking about the story of Hal and John is a love story. And I remember years ago talking to Damon Lindeloff about Hacks. And he was like, well, Hax is a love story, which he said, I think in season one, even before

it was like so clear that that's what Hax was about, you know what I mean? But he's like, but all stories are love stories. And so that's like, that's just a way that Damon, who's certainly not the only brain in this room, but, like, that's the way that Damon likes to approach these stories. So even, like, you know, if it's Kevin and Nora and leftovers, it's a more overt love story. But regardless, this is something that, like, he is deeply interested, which is just sort of, like, in falling in love with someone else, you discover yourself and all these other things. And so that's not just Hal and John and the idea of them sort of falling in love with each other, not romantically, but just sort of, like, meeting each other, knowing each other,

respecting each other, falling out with each other. But also the way that like heartbreak and romance infuses all these other action beats, the way that like Macon's willing to like lay his heart on the line for Zoe because he loves her. The way that Anton's vengeance mission is not just you wiped out all my people, but like this is a jilted ex-lover. This is a breakup vengeance, you know? And then John crying as he takes the kill shot on Zoe. So this is just sort of like romance and devastation across the board, not to mention your beloved Carrie and Hal. And so it's just like it's that juice inside of the action beats, you know, the video game stretch was just like not for me, but like it's not for me.

But like everything else was like so for me that I just really love this episode. I thought those scenes, the Zoe making phone call, the goodbye. the Anton and Macon. I thought they were so good that it actually made me a little mad that we hadn't gotten more moments between those characters previously to really appreciate the relationship.

I just thought it was incredible. So I'm really eager to talk about the scenes. I love them as well. I thought the John Zoe's stuff was fantastic. Really the only... Yeah, what are you bumping on? The Carrie opening scene did not really work for me. I have some questions about it.

It probably was the bangs they were distracting. And then I just have some like cohesion in the logic of what Zoe is doing and when. But I'm very open to the fact that it's a little unclear potentially still because there is an ongoing mystery. That it actually hasn't all been resolved. And so that's potentially actually very exciting and satisfying. It's possible that all of my questions, which are very few to be clear, are addressed over the course of the podcast. Overall, I thought the episode was wonderful.

Like, it's funny, you know, we finished watching it. I just, like, turned out and we're both like at the same time, another banger. It's just every episode this season has been really, really good. And I think, again, the variance episode to episode, while crafting a very propulsive and cohesive story where we feel like we have made a major progress individually for characters and inside of their relationships with each other, each episode has done something distinct. that's like very difficult to achieve.

Absolutely. So the, I just am very impressed with it overall. I have like a lot of sadness in my heart in a way that I love, right? I love that I'm so invested

in like the Hal John relationship already. And so watching what transpires between them in this episode, I found completely wrenching. And I think also the, um, what we talked about from the start, which is just the,

the shadow of Hal's death and, and of the many, mysteries that we have left to answer. One is, do these guys reconcile? Right. Does John call hell up and be like, guess what? I told them I didn't want it. Right. You don't have the ring, but I don't have the ring either. And don't, doesn't lower Lenny suck. You know what I mean? Like, can we bond over that? Does that happen before hell dies? Do they even get to talk again at all? I really hope so. I mean, that would be absolutely. Yeah. That would be like devastating. But we don't know. But we don't know. And so that, that potential of like this never gets resolved and that the John

meet in 2026 is a John who's carrying around the regret of an unresolved conflict or something with him is is potentially very juicy. Yes. Okay. Mailbag, really quick rapid fire mailbag before we get into the deep dive. Our listener, Rosie, I just thought this just cracking up. Rosie wrote in to say, was Sinestro always called that? Because like, his name is just sinister, right?

No one knew he was bad. I guess it's the same as walking around being named Doom, question mark. Doom is certainly, yeah. Or like, I don't know. It has real brotherhood of evil mutants. Yeah. Maleficit, you know what I mean? Like, it's just the vibe.

I feel like as an experiment, maybe people have done this. Never mind. This is could go poorly. Let's move on. Okay. Matt is saying, Matt wrote an asking for clarification on the hallogram works. Okay. And.

Want to see the little like the chip? Yeah. Like he whittled it. What it really reminded me of was like fire making on Survivor. Oh, sure. You know the way you like strike. the Flint to send a little spark? Yeah.

Do you think that Hal Jordan is a big survivor guy? No. Give me a scene between Hal and Jeff Probst right now. Zero percent Hal watches Survivor. But I think he whittles like my grandpa used to whittle. And so it reminded me of whittling, but yeah, it's also very like firemaking sparky. But like my question is, didn't it seem like a little chip of the ring came off with that?

Maybe just like an effervescent spark. But like, but I was just like, are you chipping away at your ring buddy? Like how many times can you activate Century? protocol. Well, listen, put it where exactly on the blind ranking, you know, the whole blind ranking trend is a thing that I don't totally understand, by the way, on the internet. But it's everywhere. Maybe we'll do one for social and see how it goes. It's like two years old. Is it? Is it? Yeah, but I just got to just get to your Instagram. No, but it feels very, very prominent somehow right now in a way that made me feel it was newer than it apparently is.

look, we knew that the charge, the ring's ability to hold a charge. This was like the checkoffs. Oh, God, the ring's out of charge. I've got some notes for our guy, Hal Jordan, on his readiness and tactics and planning, as we always do. You know, Hal is a flawed character. It's part of the appeal. Part of it makes them interesting. The ring, we made the iPhone comp already.

We made the charger comp already. We talked about this earlier in the season. The ring in the heat of battle being like, 5% bud, we're out of juice. Bud and Hal having to say no shit. The ring is officially at, it's not just the iPhone comp, it's like the iPhone that's a couple years old and the new iOS update has rendered it incapable of properly functioning because it can't run liquid glass. You could probably tell from this how old my phone is.

The very specific sentence and comment. So it's like, this is the best that we can do. Really? With the power of the ring? We need to, what if you're actually out in fucking space? Now, is this just about Hal not having a shit together? I mean, where are you supposed to hold? Is the lander supposed to be on your belt at all times? Like you're an old time. These guys have fucking pocket dimensions. Okay, yeah. So get like a pocket in your suit that's actually a pocket dimension and keep the lantern there. The lantern should be on your, if you can hide it somewhere and it's not clanking around on your hip, you should have your lantern on your person at all time. I mean, I agree. So shoddy work from hell as usual. But like, this is just a real limit. Whomst among us have not been, has not been caught out without our charger. It is relatable content. It really is.

Did Arjuna get a text from me during Comic-Con that said, can you bring a charger to the bar? And did he bring a charger to the bar? Yes. And then I left it there. Yeah, I remember that. So, you know, don't give me a lanternhast for fucking sure. Arjun is like completely that's fine-faced when I said that. Anyway, so here's my, here's our understanding.

It's a backup of hell's consciousness. So sort of like a hal flavored AI. So it's not like, the question was like, like, like how can it know certain things? It's not just a howl. It's AI with like a hal skin on it with like a how flavor. Would you not say? So this sounds delicious and very appealing. Yeah. And you know the like uploaded to the cloud consciousness part of it is is where the awareness of how specific experiences come from. But yeah, the idea of being connected to some larger like web, right? Yeah. I think the fact that

that like when the halogram interacts with John in the first episode, he has to learn through the course of that conversation what year it is indicates that he's not. He's not been used. And he's thus not updating. And is, no, I mean, like, clearly not updating the hair is a different color. But, like, but I mean, like, he's not updating beyond the HAL, direct HAL upload either. Like, he's not, like, current on all circumstances in the world outside of HAL's direct experience.

It seems like he's like air-gapped. That's not what air-gapping is. Air-gap means you were never connected, and I know that. But it seemed like he's basically like offline until he's activated, right? Or uploaded? I guess. But he was on the alert for the aliens hail in Rushville. Right.

That's right. So, like, that was sort of the source of this question was like, how could the halogram know about the aliens in Rushville? And I guess my answer was like he left an AI monitoring it. and that AI just happens to like look and talk and think like Kyle Chandler's Hal Jordan. Yeah. But then he's not, so he's aware of like things in Rushville, but he's not like it's. Maybe just woke him up when like something weird happened in Rushville.

I don't know. I feel like that like has to be the case because otherwise it doesn't totally track that in that conversation with John, he's like, where are we in time? The reality though is this is just a chance for me to take a victory. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it. On a reference, which I said I thought the hologram was inspired by Quantum Leap, and we had the chance to ask Dam and Lindel off this off pod.

And he said, indeed, it was inspired by Quantum Leap and also Ghost, which is interesting. But Quantum Leap. And then he, like, had the young writers in the room watch Quantum Leap. And they were like, hey, this show isn't very good. And he was like, damn, that hurts. So quantum leap. A lot of ghost references lately. Bloddram brought up Ghost when we were talking about Chad Powers on Presti.

It's referenced in Practical Magic, too. How was that? You know, Lee Pace sure is hot. He is just unbelievable. The wigs are great, and the production design is wonderful. You've yet to say anything about the movie. Well, those are all parts of the movie. About the quality of the film, the story?

More Joey King forward than I was anticipating. Did it work for you in terms of just nostalgia? Well, I like practical magic. I know. But it's not like my favorite movie ever. Did you pick Practical Magic 2 for your hype draft? I sure did. But I was just being myself.

That was after I picked the vampire list at. And I was like, oh, it's time to just lean into vampires and witches. I was just spinning out at that point. Yes, it's in my hype draft. I love it. It's going to make some money. Okay. My screening was full.

People seem to be having a good time. I don't think it's a great movie. But I think it's wildly unnecessary. Lee Pace is extremely hot. I enjoyed watching it. When the old score kicks in, you're just sort of like, ah, focus, focus. Practical magic. It's that time.

A lot of practical magic reels in my Instagram last night, and I wondered why. And then, of course, very quickly, I realized Leapace, even though he wasn't really in any of those videos connected via the algorithm. Anyway, the point is I was right about quantum leap being in a spell for hologram, and it feels really good. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Love my dusty old references being important. Okay. I was there, Adam wrote in with some well actually about the weenie, which I thought was really interesting.

Oh, okay. Adam says I currently work for Walt Disney parks and resorts on the team that runs daily operations at Disneyland. But earlier in my career, I was responsible for teaching new hires. We covered the idea of the weenie, a famous Walt Disney concept that was a bit misrepresented in this episode. Walt got the idea from his dog, whom he could lead anywhere with a weenie. Wanted to come inside, just put a weedy there, need him in the car, show him a weenie, etc., etc. The weenie isn't a central location that everything is built around. That is a separate concept of Disney theme park construction called The Hub.

Almost all Disney parks have one. It's a central location where all the other lands bridge off of. At Disneyland, that's where it's blah, blah, blah. Anyway, a weenie is actually an attraction or a piece of infrastructure that is highly kinetic and draws your attention away from the central hub and into a new area. Basically, it is a visual magnet. At Disneyland, examples include the Astor Orbiter and Tomorrowland, the whirling lights of the carousel is seen through the castle, the golden spires of the Mark Twain Riverboat as it docks in Frontierland.

So I think they were kind of using it both ways in the episode. Like this idea of, because they were called. calling like the thing that was being hidden the weenie. Yes. And compared it to like Cinderella's castle, I think, right? Yeah. Or Sleeping Beauty's Castle. Sleeping Beauty's Castle.

Where in fact, the weenie is like the helicopter beat. It was like what's supposed to draw your eye to a certain thing. And it was interesting on the official podcast because the writer of that episode did use it sort of correctly on the podcast. But it's sort of anyway. Here's the thing. led to an incredibly rich series of weeny jokes in the rest of the episode. And that's what really matters. All of which I appreciated and enjoyed.

I thought that was interesting Disney lore and I wanted to share it. The Hub versus the Weenie, two different concepts inside of the park. I'm not like a huge amusement park head. You're not a Disney adult. I know, well, that's a different thing. I mean, like, the people were obsessed with, like, parks and watch, like, YouTube videos about all the various parks. Yeah. I'm not, like, one of those people.

But I do think the fact that there is, like, a science. behind the layout of all these things. It's very interesting to me, psychologically, interesting to me. Okay. Many listeners in the comments and our emails, let us know that we got the movie reference incorrect, they believe, in last week's episode. We had wondered if they were referencing Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I suggested perhaps a Monuments Man or Lethal Weapon, too. But a lot of our listeners believe that the reference was set it off, which they literally say, they do. If you move, it'll set it off. Yeah. Good movie, great movie. Not familiar with this film.

It's a great movie. Haven't seen it. Didn't occur to me. I thought for sure they were like... I thought for sure they were referencing like the device. Yeah. But they were referencing the phrase that they just said. Yeah.

It's a great movie. And then our listener, a couple of our listeners written about a number of other female lanterns. I think, thinking perhaps I misspoken said that Jessica Cruz is the only female lantern. I guess I was just talking about her as one female lantern. There have been several others. And our listeners want to make sure that

that we knew that that was okay. Women Kimmy Landowners too. Love it. Love it. Of the green variety. Anything else you want to mention before we get into the deep dive? I don't think so. Sort of in real time trying to figure out my power ranking of favorite episodes so far because

they've all been so good. But maybe we do that at the end of the season. Or maybe we never do it. They've really just all been good. I'm not as like... Good season at TV so far. I'm not as high as you are on like every single one. But I do think this was fantastic.

I think the pilot was really good. And I think having that where it's just sort of like if you start really strong, you've got some strong middle and as long as they finish strong, then like that's a solid. It doesn't feel like it's diving off any kind of cliff, which is sort of our fear. Yeah, it really feels like we've got serious momentum heading into the final three of the season and, you know, whatever awaits for the lanterns verse beyond that. So it's just, it's exciting. It's been an exciting season to watch and talk about. and I'm hyped to see where it goes from here. Let's go down to the deep dive.

All right, Carrie joins the flashback bangs Hall of Fame. Look, you're on my mind often. Rarely. Yeah. Has there been such a powerful, undeniable incursion into the inner sanctum of my mind than when I saw these bags? You were thinking of me,

And you were thinking of Dr. Jack Shepard. Exactly. Yes, exactly. I mean, this is going to be, I assume, a historic wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson, T.M. I don't think there's much. I think we can all see what's happening with this Whigs. Not much scholarship required here. I mean, here's the gold star I will give them. Yeah.

They made fun of it in advance. You know? For Hal the same last week, I see why you dish the bang. They're making fun of their flashback wig in advance. And for that, I give them all the credit in the world. Right. It was. So when she showed up, I was like,

That's just funny, honestly. Also, just incredible to get the, like, close-up shot in the rearview mirror in the car first so that there's just, it's like, they're so high and it's just bangs. And then we get to appreciate the whole, you know, the leather jacket, the boots, the whole hairdo in full. Also, just the 2007, you know, the Chiron popping up the timeline, like, we're out of the sixes. So that's also kind of discombobulating in a fun way. Yeah.

Maybe the big things that happen in. Carrie's life happened on the sevens instead of the six. Could be. Anyway, the bangs are here. Cat eyes sharp enough to kill a man. Also, the eyeliner's here making her way to Rushville. Car breaks down and she pushes it. She's a badass, right?

She's got the leather. She pushes her car to the cafe. We get to go past the Rushville sign 1001, the population of Rushville, a very effective way ahead of what is to come to just like remind. You say like, oh, small town. But then you're like a thousand people were there as this place was just blown to bits, right? So that was all good stuff like that. Two goons from Gotham intimidate her at the counter. Task crossover when?

Sunday night, HBO, biker gang, possibilities. Penguin. Just asking questions. Penguin meets task meets lanterns. I am in. Okay. I'm in. They all have to talk a bit more like our guy Colin Farrell, though.

Okay, I thought you were going to say like Carrie and I was going to say that I'm back out. But if it's like Oz, back in. So Carrie insists them that she's not a thief, and they claim it's in the genes, right? Like father, like daughter, essentially. It's in the genes. Interesting. Feels like first of many just sort of, huh.

Yeah. You know, that's obviously, they're not talking about Manhunter cloning machines, but, you know, there's this idea. And what's really important here is that Carrie lets us know, I mean, she's being pursued for the sins of her father, sort of according to her. But also, her dad sucked.

Even before he did all of this, she was like, guess what? He was never much of a father to me anyway. Yeah. So when Carrie is talking about her son, Noah, talking about her role as a mother, like, this is a big, I have something a bit to prove here. Right.

My dad sucked. I know what it's like to have a parent who's not looking out for you all the time. That is not the person I want to be. Right. Yeah. I liked that part of it, giving us a little bit of a glimpse,

into Carrie's just overall history and personal history and what the Gotham flight was sparked by and why. And also just honestly, like, learning how recent that was to the primary timeline of the show, which even though we've moved forward into 2026 at the beginning of episode one, like, the show is largely, and we've moved into the past. The show is largely set in 2016. So this is like within a decade of that, which was- Is Noah 9? Like, did they cut off the pinky and clone the kid? Well, so in the 2026 ending of episode one, Carrie tells John when he asks how Noah's doing, he's all state. So that makes me, he's in high school.

He's in high school still. So he's like 17 or 18? Yeah. So like that's 10 years after the 2016 timeline. So it could be eight. Seven or eight? Yeah. Okay.

Does that kid look seven or eight? I can never tell. I don't know. I guess so. Yeah. I'm just saying it wasn't long before this kid arrived. after she arrived to Rushville. Yes.

One of the things I didn't like love about this opening scene, which just kind of couldn't measure up to the rest of the episode for me, I don't know. I don't necessarily think other people are going to feel this way about it, but I found the like, on the one hand, the connected DC universe thing is something I like. This is something we like in comic book storytelling. It's all kind of like always fun to like think about Gotham, right?

We had talked at the very beginning of the season. okay, Carrie Kane, what family might carry be from, the Kane family in Gotham, that's interesting to think about, the connection to Martha Wayne, et cetera. We'd like talked about some of this earlier in the season. I thought that something about the, like, repeated moments of invoking her father and the thing that he had done and these ties to the crime families and like, but without actually telling us anything about who these people were to be like sort of clunky and weird. Like it felt like a way to wink to a larger DC universe and give us some of that fun connective tissue without and maybe that clarity will come, but it doesn't really feel like it's relevant to the story.

Oh, I would far prefer this to like her being a secret moroni or something. You know, like, I don't want any of that. And so I actually. But then I'm like, why do we need this like at all? Because we need to know why she's on the run that she has, she comes from a criminal background, I think is important. And then I think her issue, her daddy issues are important. They're just trying to give us a bunch of like really quick background. I'm not saying it's the smoothest thing it's ever been.

It just like tipped a degree or two into like multiple mentions of the dad. And I felt like I kind of couldn't help then as a consumer of these stories be like, okay, we've talked about the cane family possibility. Are they a, who are the biker gang? Is this like, you know, is it a street demons group or the bikers there are working for the, sock cones or the Moroni's like, I don't know. They triggered your BBI brain and it just didn't do that to me. And I would push back a little bit because like it's literally like three lines before Zoe shows up to like crack a neck.

Like it's so quick. The end, which I have another question about the Zoe biker dude, the goon bargain that they make at the end of that. But like the fact that that guy goes back into that universe leaves open the possibility that those characters could come into play in this story, which doesn't feel like it belongs. I don't think they should. It doesn't feel like that belongs in this story. So then I don't, I don't know. It just felt like a little less expertly rooted in the place and identity and voice and tone of the show than like maybe every single other scene we'd gotten to this point,

at least for me. Interesting. We would prefer that she's not, she'd not be from Gotham at all. Not necessarily, because again, I kind of like, I feel like this felt like a little bit twixt in between and what it was trying to do, maybe. I don't know. I will say. I'm just really glad it's not like a much more overt, like, I think me too. I sort of like, I got anxious that it was leading to that possibility, which I don't, I don't think necessarily belongs here. I agree with you about the what it primes us for about thinking of Carrie as a parent, given how Carrie thinks about her parents. I think that was well done. I also liked something like in this very opening stretch here, you know, your father, was a snitch, that makes you a snitch by association. Like, language like that is very purposeful and smart, right? By association, while we come out of this episode with the clarity, you know, we'll get to the scene between Carrie and Hal out in the street, right? Like, we see right here in the cafe sequence that Carrie is brought into Zoe's cult

immediately. So Carrie knows everything, right, as we were on Carrie Watch. a lot of these characters died like we have already talked about, right? Wilmaiken, gone. Zoe, gone. Carrie is in this interesting... Billy's still here. Billy's still here.

Billy's still here. Carrie's in this interesting place in this episode where there's a connection to this thing but also like telling Hal more than she necessarily needed to tell Hal helping John at the end, right? There's a tether to them still certainly. And again, we have the glimpse of Carrie and John in the future from the,

first episode of the season. So then that by association language, it's like, well, wait, given everything that John and Hal learn in this episode and everything that happens in this episode, where does that leave them with Carrie? Like, one of the things we've talked about already that I was struck by was like the affection that seemed to be on display between Carrie and John in that conversation. Like the tenderness. Yeah, in 2026. Like, how's Noah? I think that's because she saved his life at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. But then how do they balance that with like all of the reveals inside this episode? I'm so interested to see how I'm going to I'm curious, like, how much their, like, had they had an ongoing relationship?

Yeah. Because he says, how's Noah? That's something he could have said if he hadn't seen her in a decade. Like, you would maybe know the answer to that if you had been in touch. So I guess it actually implies, like we talked about before, that they're not in touch, but that they left on whenever they last engaged in a good enough place to, like, greet each other warmly? I'm curious about that. I think the by association and that it's in the genes has something to do with, like, because so much of this episode is about talking about Zoe's nature, what's in her name.

nature. Like when she talks about killing Abin Sur, and she's just sort of like, I believe, I think it's more interesting in our assessment of Zoe, if she's not just blatantly manipulating everyone, that she kind of like feels the things that she feels and also, like, was grateful to Abin Sir for giving her another chance, but then also the primary programming is mine own survival over all else. So, like, is it convenient for Maken Sr. to be under her spell? Yes. Do I also think she has some affection for him and feels like sad that he is surely about to die? Yes. Yeah. But him dying, her affection, whatever affection she has for him or whatever affection she has for John,

etc., etc., is not as important to her programming as her own survival. That is the ultimate pinnacle of her purpose. Yeah. And so this idea of like, what is your nature? And so for Carrie to show up and be like the law and order of the town, but she comes from this criminal background. And when we meet her, like it's a, like the cult thing which we've been talking about, because that's what happens in the comics, this like Manhunter cult. But like, I think what's so interesting, there's a reference in this episode when, and we will get to all of this. But when John says, when Hal says to John in the car, you were never going to replace me, Jr., that's an untouchables reference, right? here end at the lesson, right? And so thinking about, why are they thinking about the intouchables?

There's two reasons to think about it. One is that the untouchables like Training Day is like a, by the book cop is taken under the wings of, you know, Kevin Costner meets Sean Conner. Sean Connery is like, this is the Chicago way. This is how we do it here. Like, you know, I'm going to teach you how to navigate these streets. But what's also true about the Intouchables. So like a very like training day sort of have your eyes open to the wider world sort of thing. Yeah.

But the other thing the Untouchables is about is about a mob boss who rules an entire city, right? And so Zoe Macon is a cult leader on one hand, but she's Al Capone, right? Yeah. She, like, has the whole town under her thumb because they all owe her, right? And so she's got the law and she's got this, that, and the other thing. And she's effectively the mayor of Chicago, which is what they say about Al Capone and the Untouchables. And so I just like, I like this idea of Carrie as this, I mean, Untouchables is full of corrupt cops. this corrupt cop who like doesn't necessarily want to be like that there's a part of her that

is conflicted about this is not just like sort of like a venal sort of a person but like because she feels like she owes which is what this whole you know flashback sequence is showing showing us she feels like she has no other choice and of course as we were watching buffy or any other story we know that there's always a choice not always a good one but there's always a choice you know yeah i think like you know what you were saying about zowie a few minutes ago about um feeling the pull to believe that there's something authentic there. Same thing with Carrie repeatedly, including in this episode, when she's like, I'm trying to keep this town safe. Like, I believe that and think it's true. The question of whether the bargain that these characters

make is the right one to make or worth it is a really interesting thing, you know? I also, I believe her, especially like if like protecting Noah is something that is sort of like encoded into her, whether naturally via maternal instinct or like the brainwashing of like protect this thing that's so important. I don't know. But I also think it's interesting. We've been tracking this with Makin Senior, the way in which they sort of like repeat certain language. And so the way in which the word peace is repeated multiple times in this episode where she was like, Carrie is talking about preserving the peace or it was peaceful here before you came here or all this or stuff like that. And Zoe says the same thing, right? Like, how else to die?

And if how else to die, peaceful reign once again here, you know? And so it's just sort of like the words out of, Zoe's words coming out of all these other characters. characters mouths. It's just the way in which she has brainwashed and programmed all of them. I believe Carrie also that there is something about her that fundamentally does want peace and calm and quiet and community, but also has been brainwashed a bit to say certain things. Making too, you know, dating back to like the beginning of what we heard him say about. Yeah, that's the first time we had that conversation about. Yeah, all of it. And they've done a really good job of giving us moments with multiple

characters kind of cement how this would have taken root so deeply in the way that this group of people functions with each other? Like it's, it's, because we actually don't know very many of them. But we have a clear sense of that reality that they share together. Like, we just know the makins. You know, we've seen like the football coach be called upon and put on the spot at the town all meeting, et cetera. When, uh, yeah, when there's a dead goon and, and the question is, what do we do here?

And Zoe says, call Bitsy, tell her we need a table for one. I mean, first of all. Who is Bitsy? I would like to know. I would like to meet Bitsy. But also. Kint to Baly and Kint to Ailey Ben? What do you think?

We need a table for one is, that's some real mafia language. Oh, no question. And even just the fact that Zoe was comfortable doing that, snapping the neck, the clavicle push with the cafe. And no. And no. It's like this has, this is the way that this goes, right? And so like the idea that everybody, you know, last week I asked you like, is it possible that there is one degree of removal and protection still where everybody since the town hall

meeting in episode two were like okay the entire town is in cahoots that felt clear right the hush that fell over the room the fact that they were talking about something that they could not reveal the how the fact that everybody everybody wanted you talking about me it's just an incredibly compelling moment still um the the the question that i still had as recently as last episode was like is that the same thing does that have to mean that they They know that they have made this bargain. They know that they are benefiting in this way. The crops grow.

Nobody's at the hospital. The children are thriving. All the things we heard. Do they know who exactly is actually responsible for that? Not who in theory, but literally that is Zoe. And so it was fascinating to see not just that the answer was yes for Will Maken, for Carrie, but the extent to which that was true, which brings me to my, the thing I'm struggling with, actually. Yeah, what you're bumping on.

Which is like, I don't. don't quite know how to reconcile a couple different things that feel undeniable for Zoe. Tell me. We see, I have like a much smaller Carrie version of this actually, which is not as important, but like, I guess very quickly, because the pinky, the cutting of the pinky, that we're sending it back. We're going to, you know, we're going to craft a fiction, right? We're going to agree. The go back.

He will show the pinky as proof that he killed him buried Carrie. She's dead. But like, we know from a previous episode that Hal was able to just like look her. up. This character is dumb enough to she's on the lamb pretending to be dead. They sent a pinky back to convince the people trying to kill her that she's dead, but she doesn't change her name. And she's calling back to Gotham? Like that that's a good question. That's stuff in this that's just like one one degree off in this episode from like I think the level I'm expecting from the show at this point. I think there have been these kind of wheels rattling on the show

from the beginning. Yeah. I don't think this is like. This is. This is. This is. It's just the first time that it was like, I was like, I find myself distracted by the questions I'm asking myself, like, as I'm watching. That hadn't happened for me previously. Okay. I feel like you'll have the good answer for me, maybe on the Zoe front. The carry one, I think, just kind of like doesn't make sense. I'll have to move a little bit in and out of scenes here. But, okay, so you mentioned already the Aventurs, the conversation between Zoe and John. I also thought that scene was wonderful. It's like wonderful. I'm, you know, flashbacks always. of open possibilities, but like, I don't want to actually be, I don't want Zoe to be, like, gone. Oh, I know. This has been a wonderful performance from porn. It's been fantastic. Okay. So the idea that the, that primary directive protect myself at all costs, preserve myself at all costs. And there are other, we can get maybe to the theorizing when we get to that scene. There are potentially other possibilities. I agree with you. It's like compelling

for that to actually be true, right? If it is, though, How are you reconciling the number of people Zoe is allowing to know that she is the manhunter with the absolute need for the guardians to think she's dead and nobody know that she is alive? And you could, I got myself to the point of being able to say the people who are like in her thrall who have made this bargain that there's enough of a calculus and confidence that they don't want to die. Carrie knows and making senior knows, but not everyone in the town knows that there's like a christmas. crystal heart inside of that body. Yeah, but even just like this sequence with Carrie, it's like, okay, there's a confidence on display there that like I can reveal something about my nature or the fact that the guy tending the counter at the cafe sees that she can just snap this dude's neck with her bare hands. Like they know she's superpowered. I feel like they know she's superpower.

And also they're benefiting from endless health and wellness. Like they know there's a superpower being there, right? So she sends this biker guy back to Gotham and is just like, don't. basically say anything about any of this. Or I will kill your family. And that's good enough? I don't think that I just put me in the same track. But I think that's a reasonable question. I think the only answer I could come up with for that is it goes back to her fear of raising

a larger alarm. That it's just like whatever she can do to try to figure out how to have fewer people come to Rushville, the better. So like going back to sort of like, they should have just killed how. how, but she's like, if we kill a lantern here, more lanterns will come. You know, if, like, if we kill these Dotham goons here and neither of them come back, it draws more attention. It draws, more goons will come. And so she's like, let's try this. And if this doesn't work, then I'll kill everyone who comes to Rushville. Yeah. And I guess in an episode very, very centered

around the idea of the bargain, then that becomes a version of that for Zoe, that Zoe has to make bargains and decisions too. I guess that is... It is very much a social contract, like... For sure. Sort of situation. I hear what you're saying. I don't disagree with it.

I do think that... It's like, it's nagging at me a little bit. There's something, I don't know. But like, I don't... A thousand people had to keep this secret. People who left the town had to keep this secret. How often do they kill new people who arrive? Like, does everyone who arrive, like, get to stay?

Or do they just sort of like try to, you know, in a music man, fashion, cold shoulder them out of town, you know what I mean? Just sort of like, pay up front leave. Yeah, no one was just passing through,

got hurt, had to go to the hospital, was like, why is no one here? I mean, maybe that has happened many times. Yeah. So I don't,

I don't know. Something about that didn't totally click for me in this episode. Interesting. All of the emotional beats, all the story arc stuff, that's like kind of a,

almost a core mythology of the Manhunter in the show thing that isn't 100% locked in. For me, I still, I'm just asking questions. Everything else in the episode is great. I think it's great to ask questions always. As you know, I love questions. I think for me, because the emotional truth of the episode feels like it lands perfectly, that matters more to me. But I don't disagree with your question. I guess my follow-up question to that is what do you think the Guardians knew and when did they know it? Or is it the Guardian as a

whole, or is Leanna rogue agenting this thing? Like, do all the guardians know what's going on in Rushville, or is it just Leanna who knows what's going on in Rushville? Yeah, I mean, I think that we've been on, huh? Just the one guardian. Just the one, like, corner for a while. And it definitely is possible that there's a, this is season one of a larger story we intend to tell. And so we will introduce more guardians over time answer to that. Something, was it last episode that? Yeah, it was last episode that Leanna was like, I checked in with all the other guardians. And I don't know. And we were like, that's the thing you say when you have definitely not done that thing, right? In a fun way in a way that got our theory brains racing. So yeah, Leanna feels to me like she is

operating independent of the larger hole. We have no information one way or another, but like if I had pick, I would say rogue guardian agent. We have some emails about this that we can talk about in the sort of spoilery lore section. But if it's like, what does Leon, because it feels clear, you know, Leon is so unsurprised by the Manhunter heart and the bag. You know what I mean? So it just like seems clear that she knew it was going on there. Did she know how long has she known that a Manhunter was there? Is that why your question previously was like, she seems to want to get the lanterns out of Rushville, you know? Is it because she knows she somehow involved in what happen with Abin-Sir, like, you know, how far back does this go? How deep does this go all the way to the top?

Who knows? But like if that's the case, if Zoe's operating, let's say, just theories within series, but like, if Zoe's operating in Rushville. Yeah. And there's one guardian who like knows she's there and, like, is like you can hide there as long as you don't, you know, make a scene outside of this town or something like that. If there's some reason that Leanna has struck a bargain with her, you know, make me a new Manhunter army in this town, something like that. You know, like, that would allow Zoe to operate a bit differently than if she's like not a single person can know that I'm here. Interesting. Yeah. That's, I had, I don't know. I genuinely don't know. That's an interesting possibility. To this point, it's, and even just like the, Leanna holding that heart had, um, I don't know. It made me think of like a kid who has fucked up and like they get to somehow at the last second covered up before their parents found out. You know what I mean? It had that. There was like an air of relief that this had been, this loop had been closed and like probably it hasn't, but that she maybe thought it had. That's interesting. The thing that Anton said to John in episode two. And like one thing I'm trying to keep in mind watching the show, even with like there's, we'll get to this later, but the way that previously Hal had said. to John, like, weakest member, the Manhunter attaches to it. And then Anton says to Hal, strongest member.

And I was like, oh, fun, like, Sinestra was trying to put a wedge between Hal and John with the weakest thing, you know. And then this is the truth in Hal has to confront that. But then when we learned that Anton was in a romantic relationship with the Manhunter, you're like, maybe that's just how he wants to think about it for himself. That is, like, one of the great delights of the episode of show. So who knows if what he said is exactly true or what? but Anton sent an episode two, the scale of our tragedy drew the attention of a green lantern sent by the guardians. The lantern took the monster into his custody and guaranteed he'd be executed.

Why? I do not know. Then we have the ab and sir conversation. We had Hal reached the like, oh, Abin'Sir, right? Immediately. John brings it up, as you noted, the response from Zoe. So, like, that's an interesting one on the how often is Hal's gut, right, like, corner as well, right?

50, 50, honestly. You think it's coin flip? I'd say more like 70, 30, but 70 yes, I already know? Yeah, I think so. Okay, generous. I am very generous when it comes to the Hal Jordan. There's no question about it.

I think he has dazzled you with his rumbled hair, but sure. I've got some stuff to confront on the Hal Jordan front in this episode. But yeah, so did the Guardian send Abin-Sir with the Manhunter to execute? And Abin-Sir broke rank, right, outside of the Guardians. And then... Abensar got seduced by Zoe. Yeah, maybe. And then Zoe seduced Leanna.

And then Zoe was just sort of like, everyone. Who hasn't Zoe seduced? And honestly, I get it. Honestly, I get it. Or, like, there's still this Sanestro involvement possibility here, right? Was, is it possible that Sinestro was the one who actually was tasked with executing the The Manhunter and Obensur intervened? Is it possible that Sinestro, that it was Obensur's task, but Sinestro is it was Obensur's task,

but Sinestro interfered in some way? Is it possible? I mean, there's so many endless possibilities. Is it possible that Leanna had, like, sent Sanestro after the other guardians? Because Leanna's, like, I don't want these other guardians. I want to be the only guardian. And then if it's that or something like it, then what role did that play in opening up Sinestro's larger? Like, are these the people who should be in charge?

Here's my ranking of people that I don't trust on this show. Leanna number one. Sinera did nothing wrong. I mean, yeah, you can't even put Senestro on your list. You love him. Leanna, Zoe, right? Yeah. Sanestro.

Uh-huh. Yeah. How? He let John... He's working through a lot. Burn to death. Terrible stuff from Hark. It was horrible.

Very sad. John. That's sort of my ranking. Everyone else is... Well, Carrie. No, no, my list. Yeah, Cary's... Leanna number one.

Carrie's pretty high up. Carrie number two. I think that's right. Sinestro number three. Yeah. Zoe number only because she's dead. She can't do anything else. Zoe down there.

Then Hal then John. Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about Hal's final lesson to John, right? Final question mark. He says here I did the training. We don't know because we still have some blank years in between. Right.

John wakes up in the car. He's stuck. Hal comes to look at him. He says, I'm going to have to move you off the game board, right? As John says to his parents later, there's no indication here that Hal plans to kill John. Right. He's just sort of like, you're stuck here. You can't be part of whatever gamut I'm about to pull off with Anton and Macon Sr.

and Zoe and stuff like that. I just don't want you in the mix. I don't trust you because you lied to me. So I will give Hal this that he couldn't necessarily know for sure that the car would catch on fire. But he still left him for dead, which is what John does to Hal later in the episode. So even Stevens? I think, like, you know, later when John, when Hal says to Zoe about John, like, one thing I know about that kid is he's not a coward. If he wanted me dead, he'd do it himself. Just a wonderful moment, like, for that relationship. They're in love. What they have known, what they have actually really learned about each other. I just let that end of this episode. It was so good. So that's different. You know, John, despite being really repulsed by Hal and the active judgment that he shares with Howell, and then obviously what he says to Leanna about Hal

and what the desperate need to hold on to the ring has done to Hal is very powerful. He's almost like, you're going to live and you're going to have to live with the regret and the failure and like sit in that. To the pain. Yeah, that's a little,

it feels less bad than what Hal does, which is like I crashed. I'm actually not referencing him leaving him in the rubble. I'm referencing him, using him as bait with Zoe. Does he know he's going to get the kill shot with Zoe before Zoe kills Hal? No. He can't know that he's going to be able to kill Zoe before.

He is like the best sniper in the world is super fast. He is, of course. And he runs off with his bare feet and he makes it like, but he uses Hal as bait. And it could have gone very poorly for Hal. No question. We see how quickly Zoe can snap a neck. She just got caught monologuing, unfortunately. It happens. It happens to the villains. It does. It does.

It does. All right. And this was, I will say on the car crash run and just, you know, because you had asked last week, like, you know, they're kind of like playing on our, oh, we had the fun, cute opening of the series car crash and John had the ring. So he was able to make bubble wrap and then they have a fun little conversation about it. Bubble, aren't you a genius? And you were like, wait, he didn't have the ring.

Like, what if he's really hurt? Like, I was, I don't know, this was all astonishing to me. Like, it had not occurred to me that John would be like. on the brink of death after as a result of this. Like when the car exploded, that's obviously not this scene that's later, but like, when the car exploded, I was like, holy shit. Like I did not think that was going to happen. Obviously what that allows Zoe to then do.

Well, Zoe lets it happen so that she can say, hey, man, you're extra crispy. Real nice body, but it would be a real shame of something happened to it. I know. The Faustian bargain that so many different characters have to make with Zoe in this episode is really interesting. But my question is like how she does. I just found a way to do that with every single person in town. Maybe.

And then how many of their children are actually just little, like, you know, 3D printed out the machine. Johnny Hughes is Hal of trying to take credit for killing Zoe. And Hal responds, we don't kill. And we do see later that he does avoid killing Zoe when he handcuffs her to the helicopter at the cost of many, I would say. Yeah. But he says, I can't speak for the guardians once I hand her over. John, of course, will kill Zoe. Sure.

This is very Buffy and Giles. We don't kill humans sort of thing. But Hal's, like, desire to not kill her is not just this code, this altruism. Yeah. But this sort of like, I'll let Antonin make and have it out while he got for Zoe. I'll be on Oa, the big blue bastards are going to be lining up to kiss my ring, right? This is exactly what Sinestro told him to do in episode four. If one were alive on your planet,

That information would be a great interest to the guardians. Deliver the manhunter to the guardians and disgrace during the process. Tell me, does he speak to the guardians directly? You know, so Hal is enacting exactly Sanestro's plan. And something that I don't think we dug into last week, but something that the writers have made clear is that like all of the bids for intimacy that Hal makes to John in last week's episode, like where they're digging in the tunnel together and stuff like that, that was him also following Sinestro's. plan because Sinestro was like, get close to him, use that confidence sort of thing. And so like that Hal has been yes, siring Sinestro's plan. Yeah.

There was a moment when the path could have gone differently because in doing so, he got to know John and sort of felt for him. But then when John lies to him, he's like, oh, no, back on the Sinestro play. Yeah. It feels very neatly in parallel and in concert with what John has been doing to Hal where like John is. you know, up until this episode, right, where there's obviously a major rupture. Working for the Guardians. Yeah, and kind of following the beats of not only the path, but the plan and doing the things and getting a position to take the ring in those moments and like the long pregnant pause and all of that. Like, but also that the things that transpire between them when they're both running their games is authentic on some level.

And the ability to find those kernels of connection inside of a respective and, and you're, bit of theater is so, like, delicious to watch. It's funny because, like, this, I mean, this scene, watching Hal here was, like, really harrowing, obviously, intentionally. I mean, first of all, the fact that he's, like, willing to sacrifice the town to preserve his own standing is just so damning. Right. On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, it, like, seems so clear that, like, he didn't believe it would go as badly as it goes. Yeah. He seems, like, surprised a couple times.

And I was just like, everyone keeps telling you what's going to happen. I know. Carrie, like, outright says to him, like, she's going to. Yeah. And then the man Hunter just, like, blows up a bunch of stuff. And he's like, what the fuck? I know. And I was like, why are you so surprised at him? He has a little bit of the, like, you know, the old, like, the J-School, like, negligence or malice aspect to it.

But I am kind of like, Hal is a little bit of a dipship. But also he, like, I don't think that's something he should have been surprised by. It's kind of weird. But, you know, I think on the we don't kill, you know, the we don't kill thing. Yeah. For someone so killed, Jesus Christ, Jr., for someone so desperate for the ring, you clearly miss the fine print, I think given what we've talked about across the season of Hal's relationship to the oath, something that we know in other ways, he has broken very recently, right? I don't know that I watched what transpired between Hal and Zoe thinking that Hal would have been unwilling to kill Zoe. I was much more focused on what he says here,

the other part that you noted of like, he needs to be able to present the living article to like get the, I think if push really came to shove, he would have killed her, for sure. And like that he's relishing and mocking Johns, you are obsessed with wanting this thing that you don't even really understand.

And then, of course, the question at the end of like who doesn't really understand it actually is... On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I really feel like it's more in that sort of Buffy Matt Murdoch vein, which is like, we don't kill humans, unless I really kind of have to. Yeah, and like, right. Or like you'd make decisions that, you had to do it. And you didn't do it with your bare hands, but you made decisions that led to a thousand people like being dead. So what fucking difference is a make? Which is a, in some ways, more damning, actually, right? If you say that you

don't do the thing and then the cost is the same and then you tell yourself the blood's not on your hands, like that's so gnarly and fucked up. On the one hand, yes. And I agree. On the other hand, what I think is so interesting about this episode is like, you know, several characters say what happens next is on your head, right? Like Anton says it and Carrie says it and stuff like that. And I'm just sort of like, I know you're not saying that, but I'm just saying like, a lot of blame to go around. Yeah, but I just think that's so interesting.

It's like, is how responsible for a lot of what happens here, are there other tactics that they could have used? Could we have regrouped and figured out how to come in and like grab Zoe in a way that didn't risk all of these people? Does he make a calculated risk and a bunch of innocent, though how innocent are the citizens of Rushville? We don't know. People die. Yes.

On the other hand, like, he's not the one setting off a single one of these bombs. That's like Anton and his crew and Zoe and her incredible tablet and her yes-man soldiers. I mean, everything in the town's like rigged to blow, you know, the satellites winning above. So I would say like on the power ranking of blame house on the list, but not certainly not. Number one, Leona. Always. Number two, carry. Always.

I, you know, what is, what is, to the episode's credit, obviously, and the deafness of the storytelling is that, like, we have the scope of that carnage, right? What happens to all of these people in Rushville and all of the different parties and groups who are involved in some way and who bear some culpability, but also who bear the cost, right? But you have a scene like this between Hal and John, or obviously a scene like the one. or obviously a scene like the one at the end of the episode between them. And it's like the thing that how, this is I think just kind of like human nature as a viewer or reader, you're thinking about the bigger thing, of course.

But you're like, it's shocking to see Hal do this to John. It's just shocking. Like the way that that hits you inside of a one-to-one intimate relationship that we're so invested in, there's such weight. I thought that the coldness and the cruelty that we saw from Hal here, the moment where like, because John's leg is pinned, he's trying to. get out when he kind of lurches forward and Hal just like leans back. You know, he had been kind of leaning down the window. He just leans back and looks down. I was like, that's like villain shit,

right? Well, and I think having him do that and Zoe, who is our like clear villain, but like, it's villains all the way down, right? Because it's just sort of like, we talked about this when Sinestro shows up. Yeah. And you're like, Hal's the antagonist to John on the show to a certain degree. And they give Hal an antagonist in Sinestro. And then Zoe's an antagonist over here from the other side. So it's just sort of like we're surrounded by. And then Leanna, for sure. And please don't get me started again on Dawn's parents. So like, you know, there's just sort of like these.

And Carrie, what is she doing? And Noah, we don't trust him and all of the makins. So is it just like John alone in the world against all of these forces against him? But like, Hal's fear corruption, you know, which again, like we talked about this a bit more in depth than sort of the comic book lore section. But like the idea of like fear corrupting how Jordan is something that has, you know, precedence in the comic. But like when he is sort of spitting back Sinestro language, then it's just sort of like, is that how doing it? Does he bear responsibility? Does it make us feel a little differently about seeing him dead in 2026 to know that like he was on this corruption path or something like that maybe?

But like also we have empathy for him because we see this corrosive thing happening to him. Yes, I think definitely. I think there is, I'm still responsible. The Manhunter is just like, this is just who I am. Yeah, exactly. I think there's a difference between, and this is really, really one of the fun things about the show, villains and villainous acts, right? And I think that, like, because what is happening, like, Hal does terrible things in this episode,

we have such a clear understanding of how, Hal has arrived. there's still stuff we don't know about Howell's journey, obviously, at this point. But we understand very clearly how the fear, the insecurity that Hal feels, the need to hold this ring to keep the one thing in a life now defined by loss that he could not control, right? Tragedy. And then, and betrayal, Sinestro, right? and then the decisions that we understand that he has made that have been there since the first episode of the season and the way that other characters talked about him

and then we heard him talk about directly in episode four to deprive himself of connections. And so he has arrived at a point where the only tether he has is to this person who he thinks is there to replace him because he is. And the ring that he refuses to lose because he doesn't know how to define himself

absent having that on his finger. So it's such a human flaw. This is like a, it's about completely. complexity and mistakes. Yeah. And bad decisions inside of that, but it's so deeply, deeply human that I feel, despite watching how air, like, deeply invested in him and hopeful that we can still find a way forward. I think that the senestro of it all, like, you said a couple minutes ago something about to hear him use the language, right? And like, it's not like, you know, my replacement to replace me is, uh, anyone could have said that.

But we know that Sinestro, like that hammer moment of say what he really is, my replacement. So when we get to replace me here, it's just like to understand really fully how Sinestro was, how effectively the wedge that he inserted the poison in the well took root and how primed Hal was for that already. To have heard Hal how repeat Sinestro language, similar to what we've been talking about in terms of like carry and make in repeating Zoe language, I think is a really interesting parallel. I also think in a meta context and more responsible people than me refrain from psychoanalyzing the people who make these shows, but like it's one of my favorite things to do. The fact that like the tree, let's think about the trio of creatives behind this, right? Chris Mundy, Tom King, Dame Lindeloff. These are all men

who have had decades of careers behind them, right? And so this idea of like, and then they have staffed their writers' room as they responsibly should with like a bunch of young writers. And so like every time, you know, we see a writer from one of these episodes interviewed on the official podcast or whatever, like this is a different generation of writers. So that, so like funneling in this idea of like relevancy and sort of like who gets to tell the story and who who still belongs in these roles and stuff like that, I think is such a potent strain of this. So like Hal's sort of like just like that refusal to let go but then like Hal can still do his job. He's still quite good at his job. We see him do it. We get to see in this episode. Except for

never charging the ring. Other than that. We get to see in this episode. Like, I really love the moment when he like walks in among like the town. See the corpse is already there. Like figures out the angle of whatever. And like that's like great fun. So like the shoe leather detective stuff that again, the 50-50 good. Sensing the attackers enough to throw the shield up right and before before the guns come out. Like great stuff. We love that. But to have like a generation of storytellers tell a story about a man unwilling to, like, let go. I just think that's really rich and potent and really interesting. All right, let's talk about Zoe's final lesson to Noah.

Please. Conclusively final because her heart got cut out. So I think we're done. Unless there's some Zoe DNA in the machine, in a different machine somewhere. Yeah, I mean, is that possible? Is the heart necessary to put the tissue around? The heart wants, what the heart wants. I don't know.

How do you manufacture a new Manhunter heart? I don't know how this tech works. And what do you, I mean, what are we doing with that heart? Oh, what is Leanna doing? Oh, you're putting it on the mantle? With your fungo pops? No question about it. Okay.

No question about it. You got to clean off the blood and the viscera. I feel like Leanna's going to keep that. The viscera. Leanna's going to put it in a, in like a case. Yeah. Like a cube of glass. Like a sign baseball or something.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or like the arc reactor or something. You know what I mean? It's just going to like go in that. that and then, okay. All right. Mobilize and initiate protective measures seems like everyone knows, right? Like, it's a town-wide alert. Everyone knows, everyone, battle stations, everyone knows what to do. Except for Billy, who's like, I want to play, and they're like, no, Billy, your job is

guarding Noah. Was the woman who, you know, we got some glimpses of heroism from Hal amid the, to borrow the phrase from Leanna, shitstorm? You know, Hal has that woman when he tries to pull the woman out of the car. Was she like, I'm actually not going to mobilize and initiate protective measures. I'm going to bounce. Thank you, though. Do you think cooler guy was trying to leave? Well, here's my question about the people who are at the motel. I mean, the RIP cooler guy, because he's the, he's the legless corpse at the end where with a wife and child, I guess, sort of crying over him. But like, the people who are staying at the motel, are they residents of Rushville or are they just passing through? And if they're just passing through, then that's some real-

Right question. What if they're there? What if they're plants to just watch whoever actually is passing through? Oh, great question. Or conspiracies all around. Also, to your earlier question about, or the conversation we talked about like sort of this villain antagonist shell game, it goes back to like a story we love to talk about, which is like to the monsters where the monsters. Yes. To Rushville, Nebraska, the monsters, the alien invaders are the lanterns without question.

These are the villains. Yes. All right, so, which brings us to Noah. So Zoe goes to talk to Noah and she says, what did I tell you about spying? First, he throws her the football and she catches it, which was just, I thought, iconic. Do you want to comment on his throw her game? He's got ground to cover. The lesson that John gave him...

Just imagine it. It helped, yeah, clearly. I'm not seeing an all-state arm yet. What about her hands, the catching hands? She did great. Correct. She did great. He repeats back her lesson.

See without being seen. Right. So one, it seems of several lessons she's taught him. She is training him. Oh, yeah. A human child and definitely not a manhunter child. For sure. I mean, that right on the heels of this billy exchange, your place is here out of the way.

The most useful thing he can do right now is to protect you. Because he's a mini manhunter. What else are we possibly supposed to deduble? induced from this? Well, just sort of like, let's pretend it's a child and we care about protecting children. We do. I mean, yeah, we do. We do. Ill time shrug. You're like, I'm like, we do. That was on behalf of everyone in the Macon Ranch, to be clear, protect the children. Yeah, I don't know. This seemed undeniable in this scene. I think so. Really did. A lot of people you love are going, you know, are going to die today. People you know, some of you love. Are you going to die? He says, we'll

see, but no matter what happens, don't forget everything I've told you. You promise. I promise. Okay. Yeah. Above a beyond, is Noah a manhunter question? Yeah. Is did Noah kill Hal Jordan in 2026? And does Noah know he's a manhunter? He knows there's something to learn here.

I was thinking back to the weird thing we talked about last week with Carrie. The, what am I? She was his grandmother. What am I? supposed to tell Noah? Like, was that just, I need to pretend for a second here that I think she's dead? And, like, it's as simple as that. It's just like a beat of saying something that you think you should say in that moment to cover for the fact that this person is not really dead, but is in fact a manhunter. Or what am I just to tell him about being a manhunter? Exactly. But how about a tutor? Yeah, is now, but she knew she wasn't dead. So that doesn't really make sense. Huh. Uh, does little Noah know he's a manhunter? I'm just like talking about this. Like, it's an absolute lock. We have no fucking idea. I mean, it's so true. But like, here's the thing about, like, In terms of like who killed Hal Jordan, it feels like it has to be one of three people. A character we know, right? It's got to be. Yeah. I think, well, four. Okay.

Okay. John Stewart. I don't think it is, but John Stewart. I'm unwilling to accept it. Next. I just had to put it on the table. I don't think it is, but I just had to put it there. Okay. Here are my real three suspects. Okay. Tell me. It's a family. It's Carrie, it's Billy, it's Noah. So the living members of this core making contingent. Provided that Billy is alive in 2026. which we don't know, but we do know that there is an odd Noah. I think the fact that Noah is mentioned. Right.

At the very beginning in the first 2026 scene, the fact that Noah gets a mention, what's Noah up to? The fact that Noah gets a mention. Also, like, off the back of something like, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers for Mare of East Town. If you did not watch that show, spoilers from Marev East Town. That's a big one. Hit fast forward twice if you don't want to hear this. Yeah. But why have you watched Marevies Town?

It's great. Check it out. Okay, I haven't said it yet because I was talking about other things. Keep fast forwarding. Yeah. The kid did it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So like that feels kind of irresistible. So either, here are my main theories. Okay. Is there no possibility given that it's a wound to the head that he did it to himself? Yeah. Okay. Five. Yeah. John Stewart. Hal Jordan. Carrie, Billy, Noah. I refuse to accept the John nomination, but I am willing to consider all the others. Leanna? Liana? Oh, Leana. Liana is in the mix from Sinestro? No. What if our guy was just out there on the football field?

He loves Hal. Sanestro did nothing wrong. And he's like, let me check in on your 40-yard dash time and your three-cone. Didn't like what he saw from Hal. And he's like, they were right. You were obsolete. Boom. I think either Noah did it or Carrie did it to like protect Noah.

Well, those are upsetting possibilities. And I have to say to go back to the what Zoe says about like I had to do it. this sort of Manhunter self-preservation thing? Like, is that a possibility for Noah where it's just sort of the programming of like, I had to do it? Like, if Hal finds out that he's a manhunter? If what transpired between Zoe and John in that conversation is real, then it feels like it's there for a reason.

So I like where you're going with that theory. Follow-up question on Theory Corner here. Are we eliminating? We got to six there, six possibilities. I'm thinking back to the possibilities we ran through at the very beginning of the season, one of which you tossed out, and I think we got. emails about this. Is that definitely how? Are we like sure it's how? Is it 100% how? Are we getting, are we moving off of the question? Because I know that was a big topic of conversation. I think the way that

the writers have talked about it makes me feel like that is actually how. I think we have always felt it was how and bit, but that was a big like, could that be? And especially now that we're in this episode where it's like I got a little bit of your skin and your DNA and I made a, it feels like that could like pick back up again after this episode, the question of like, are we sure that's how? We think that's how. That's the most interesting. dramatically. Are we sure that's John? That's an interesting question. Oh my God. Darkest timeline John with the beer.

I don't know what to believe. Anyway, all of this, like a lot of people are going to die today. People you know, some you love, are you going to die? We'll see. But no matter what happens, don't forget everything I told, do you promise? I promise. Feels like a real vengeancey kind of, you know, vengeance for my grandma sort of thing. On that front, what does Zoe want?

We've talked about the primary directive Zoe wanted to survive. I made it. Here I am. No one's going to kill me. Everyone who I give something to I grant a gift to will be tasked with preserving and protecting me. But then elsewhere on this episode. I love all those red shirts that are just out there, just ready to die in the darkness for her. I know.

They're just like our queen. Was like the corn you grew that good? I don't know. Oh my God. But if you had like super. It's great. Buttery, Nebraska corn. Wonderful.

So good. Wonderful. How do you conquer a community? Yeah. Conquer. Culture. What a cool word. Planet.

Yeah. Now, we know from Anton, the history of Anton's people with the Manhunter, like, we know this is the thing Zoe does. But so then with this conversation between Zoe and Noah and our Noah mini manhunter theories, it's like, well, wait, what is the actual ongoing mission beyond just protect Zoe? I, Zoe, I'm going to protect myself. Is it? Populate the Earth? Earth? Populate the Earth with other Manhunters. Is my guess. Here's

my thought is that she's trying to like perfect and this is all just to say Billy, what a piece of shit. Perfect the art. Like I don't think that the town is like teeming with Manhunters. I really think it's probably just Billy and Noah, I think. Could be wrong. Happy to be wrong.

She's trying to repopulate the earth with manhunters. And she's like Billy, first pancake. Didn't really work out. But Noah This is my, yeah, this is my. To my oil in the pan. Pistaresistance. And once I've mastered that.

The only first pancake is brutal. Connor Roy, I'm thinking about you always. Always. You know, and so it's like, but with Noah, they've perfected it a bit or they're working on perfecting it. She's giving him all of his lessons, all of her lessons, so that they can build an army of Manhunter's. He is the future of her people.

But also are the, is he a manhunter? Or like, what does the human manhunter, like, hybrid mean? Like, when we get the very important Anton, we couldn't conceive. Like, she's been trying to make other Manhunter hybrid types of things. But what does human DNA? Because, like, well, you know about a manhunter. Zoe, Zoe can look like any thing she needs to look like. Yes.

They haven't really explored that narratively. She's not shown up looking like a bunch of different things. But we know that from it. Like she looked different elsewhere or like, oh, she adopted a male persona here or something like that, you know. Can Noah shape shift? Like can these other, can a billy shape shift, you know, like can these other Manhunter hybrids, if that's what we want to call them? Again, we're just making up lore now. But like.

I mean, the combination of the we couldn't conceive line between Macon and Anton when Macon is pretending to be the Manhunter, this seems amazing. we pair that with what Carrie says in the conversation with Hal. I fucking owe her you can never understand what she gave me. What did she give you a miracle? A miracle. That gives me I could not have a child and now I do. 100%. That's how I felt.

And I think as viewers are supposed to think, oh, she grew back her pinky or like freed her from Gotham goons. I mean, growing back your pinky is a miracle. It's not nothing. Yeah. But I think she's talking about Noah. Yeah. 100%.

just take one from a chopped finger from a drawer of chopped fingers and attach it, but it looks gross. No, thank you. No, thank you. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaiaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned.

And today, I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. It's a pass for you. It's a no for you. All right, let's talk about Hal and Hal and Carrie.

We already talked about this about Hal and the Hallogram on the, on Chekhov's Water Tower. Really fun use of the Water Tower in this episode. The fact that we've had several scenes on the Water Tower and then it finds out that it's full of darkness. It was really fun. Yeah, I loved it. Really, really great. I just I don't know how without being able because Hal's gone and we can't update the halogram. Maybe he'll update him because I just really prefer while Hal is always super hot.

I just really prefer. The gray and the hair. You're going to be bummed if we get dark hair, halogram. The double RL jacket to the halogram look. So I'm wondering if it's possible to slightly tweet. that, but it is still wonderful. We're talking, we're just, this is like, it's all great. I mean, two hals, no way. I know. I mean, it's great. Hallogram's non-corporial, though, right?

Um, like, can't touch anything? Well, he's standing on the ground. I'm trying to think that's not you. So I was to say, non-corporial rules usually means. We need to see like a person interact with him or him interact with a surface other than the ground. A non-corporial thing in storytelling usually can like sit and stand, but like if it can't. can't pick up things and hands go right through that. Yeah. So we haven't seen anything to the reason I ask is for Carrie's sake in a real Anya Xander Xander kind of way. You know what you mean? Like, does Carrie get to have Hal and the Hallogram? But if he's non-corporial,

it's not as fun. I mean, my mind is racing in a wonderful way right now. Just wanted to provide that for you. Oh, man. Great stuff. I've liked to like the beginning to think you'd, you know, you'd forgotten about me. We already knew, again, from the John Hallogram conversation in the first episode, Halogram has not been called upon in some time. But it was fun to see Hal have to directly confront that. He looks like disgusted with himself. Yeah, like he tucked this part of his life and himself away. You know what I mean?

And the way they talk about John. Well, when he says, we drew that? 10 out of 10 Kyle Chandler delivery. Yeah. We do that? So good. The Texas, like, jumped out. It was so funny. Incredible.

Maybe, you know, I think undeniable number one Kyle Chandler moment in the episode is just the like, Coitus, but this was really good as well. I actually think it's when right after this, he lands in front of Carrie's car and just kind of smirks at her. Very powerful and important. Very good. Very good. The trainee, damn, we drew that, the trainee, John, I met him the other day. I like him.

You know, so it's just, the halogram continues to tell us so much in very limited screen time. Yeah. Like, we talked previously, okay, what does it mean, given the conversations in the 2016 timeline about how I'm not wearing the suit and the thing, how says it, like, the taco stand, You know, you're not like, I'm not like in the tie anymore trying to impress, right? What does it mean that already at that point the halogram was not in the lantern suit in the upload? But also then... I'm just like so much less certain that that means something rather than just sort of like... I want it to mean something more than I feel like sure it does necessarily.

But like, you know, I... Then it's like, okay, the... What maybe things had already happened in his life to that point that led to some sort of change, but everything we've seen from... There's like an enthusiasm, right? a positivity. There is not the like hard cynical, lost and lonely aspect that defines. Daddy betrayed me. Yeah. Our hell. And so like thinking about, because like, you know, that's a long time, but it's not really in the like scope of a life. But it is. I mean, a day is a long time in the scope of the

I mean, how wait, what's the math? How old is how old is how supposed to be right now? I don't know if we like know exactly when you were four. Well, let's say it's 46 to 56. Like, is that what you would say maybe? Let's see. So 20, what timelines do we have? So 2016, we know the halogram is from 06. When young John is watching Hal on TV, that's...

96. The moment is 96, and they allude to 86, which was like implied in that 60 minutes of review that 86 was when he became Lantern. Yeah. Green Lantern. So does that mean he was born in like... 66, let's say. Let's say he's 20 when he becomes him.

It's all sixes. Yeah, all the way down. 66. But wait, then how old would that make him in the 26th timeline? 60. How old is Kyle Chandler? In his 50s, right? All right.

He looks just aged. Oh, he's 60. Yeah. He looks great. Yeah. So let's say he's born in 66. Yeah. So let's say he's 40 generously, right?

in 2006, and then 50 in 2016. So between 40 and 50, how much does a man really change is the question we're asking. And I don't think that in a, I'm in the midst of this, you're about to start this like 40s sort of journey. I don't think it's a hugely transformative decade necessarily. Can be. We're always growing and changing. I intend to change. I intend to evolve.

But I think the difference between like 20-year-old. me and 30-year-old me. Yeah, it was huge. It was huge. Same. Same. So just in terms of like a consequential decade, which was your original question, and then just sent to spiraling down a, how old is he really? But like the fact that just 10 years ago how would not have been threatened by having a trainee,

but actually found it kind of cool and interesting, that is a big difference. It really is. So that's just, that's, is that just the Sinestro thing? How many other things happened in that period of time? Or just like feeling you're 40 and you're still like, I'm still with it and you're 50 and you're like, So youth are coming for me.

All right. We already talked about a lot of this Carrie and Hal interaction. I would just plus you're sort of a miracle. Noah question with, why don't you think about your son? I am thinking about my son. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah.

That also feels, again, on the Noah watch. Yeah. So where are you and just Carrie, how Carrie is navigating the bargain she's made with Zoe, the desire to keep Noah safe, what she says at least about wanting to keep the town safe, but that there's still at least a degree of... There's a little chip of a spark off the old Green Lantern ring. Working with, you know, Hal here. I mean, on the one hand, yes.

On the other hand, she unloads the gun on him. And like, yes, he's the Green Lantern. He can put a shield up. And yes, she has a plausible reason where she's like, we can be seen but not heard. And I can give you information. And I kind of believe all of that. But also, like, if she had hit him with the gun, like... It's done. It's a wrap.

It's done. I mean, he survived. He survived a gun shop before. And the jacket is amazingly preserved. Not a full clip of a gun unloaded in such a short range into him. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

But by the way, these amazingly powerful satellites. Yeah. We can't hear. We can't hear. Oh. We couldn't be like, activate audio for this conversation. Too distracted by cloning people to master the audio. But they can't be like, you know what would be helpful to pair with the video?

Audio? Oh, man. Oh, boy. All right, let's talk about Zoe and John, right? Okay, so Zoe heals John a miracle, a la Carrie. And then we hear that John doesn't trust the guardians, not just because the way they treated him and his family, that that would be reason enough, but because of the way they treated Hal, right? They didn't tell him he was going to be replaced. They just expected me to take the ring.

So that's about him, right? What they want him to have to do. We already knew that he was displeased with that. But like, they didn't tell him he was going to be replaced. So, like, that's his affection for Hal jumping out. Yeah. Even as he's burnt to a crisp. I know.

Because Hal left him in the car. Oh, my God. And the way he said to Zoe, you let me burn fucking inhuman. Fucking inhuman. And so to be able to maintain any degree, any degree of affection, empathy, even just to desire to understand. The capacity to think about another person for Hal is, like, astonishing at such a credit to John. But yeah, this rejection of, you know, this path we're watching to the rejection of the guardians

and also to the path that John's parents put him on, this was a really a key moment while we hear from him here. And I think there's the, there's the Howe part of it, but also just the way John thinks about honor, right? And the way that John, because like one of the things we hear John say at the end about, Hal is like, you know, the oath, like him betrayed the oath, betrayed himself, but he had the code, right? The idea of like a code is something that matters to John. We've heard him say elsewhere, like, well, you know, I think it was last episode that we went back and kind of enumerated the examples from prior episodes in the season of talk of the word like respect coming up, right? And the idea that you don't have to like somebody, but you can respect them, which Hal then got his version of in the conversation with Sinestro. And when John had talked about, you know, how his father taught him to respect people who help other. people and work to save other people. And that like all of this is in the mix with John, all of it, but that there is something undeniably wrong about what Leanna is doing in the way that she is doing it and that John is going to work toward the place by the end of the episode where he has seen what the ring has done

to hell. But also he's like, I'm not going to be a part of this. Is that what he said? Or did he say, I don't want it. I don't want it. I mean, it was hard not to type just J-O-N instead of J-O-H-N. in my notes the entire time. Just wonderful stuff.

Wonderful stuff. I don't want it. All right. We talked about this sort of like peace conversation that they had. Then they have this sort of skin color conversation, right? When he's getting healed, he says, if I come out why it deals off. And if you come out darker, my brothers would never let me hear the end of it. I just want to shout out that.

So Donna Britt, who is the mother of Justin Britt Gibson, and what I mentioned at the beginning of the episode. As far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, please hobbits and dragons at gmail.com, if I'm wrong about this. But, like, I think she's credited with sort of quoting this idea of, like, when you talk about parents giving their children the talk,

in some context, that means, like, the birds and the beads. But in sort of the African-American experience, it means, like, what it means to move through the U.S. as a young black person, and specifically, I think, as a young black man. So, like, that idea of the talk as it pertains to black families inside of America. And so Donna Britt wrote a very significant op-ed in Washington Post,

but a series of op-eds sort of just about this conversation that she as a mother had with her two sons, especially because her younger, her middle child, Daryl, Brett Gibson, the actor, is named after her brother who was shot and killed by, I believe, a white cop. And so just sort of like this idea of the legacy of her brother and how she was trying to like, really in the mid-90s is when is when she was writing these op-ed, sort of like in the Ronnie King conversation era. And then I saw that I found this interview that she gave to, and her two sons,

Justin and Daryl, gave to NPR after the Trayvon Martin shooting, talking once again about this idea and what these two young men learned from their mother and what she wanted to impart. But I, I think all of this is interesting. Just to think about like Justin Brick Gibson as the author of this episode, this idea of like blackness's identity. The fact that Daryl and Justin are brothers who have one dad and then they have a younger brother who has a different dad. And if you look at all three of these boys together, the youngest brother is lighter skin. So this idea of like two brothers with a darker skin and a lighter skin younger brother and all this stuff that John is dealing with. And the way in which Justin could put his personal experience into this.

and then to think about Gita Patel as the director of this episode and hearing what Zoe has to say about why she chose this form and what this means to her. And like, though I feel wildly unqualified to speak about a lot of this and wildly unqualified, especially to speak about what Zoe says about how being an outsider, you know, is actually the best way to infiltrate and conquer and then the crucible that all of these challenges form for her. I feel that there are people who are going to.

to agree with that and people who are going to disagree with that. And I think that'll be a really interesting conversation. Yeah. I, again, don't feel like wholly qualified to wait in there. But again, I do think it's interesting to think about who wrote this episode, who directed this episode, and the choices that were made behind that, you know? Yeah. I also, I'll be curious to see if, like, anybody says in it, because, again, we're recording this but heading into the weekend before it airs. So I'll be curious to see if, like, there's anything about this in the official pod or anything. But I, I, I, I feel like this is also in here because of the big discussion about colorism when Aaron Pira was cast.

100%. So that felt like connected to that as well. Yeah, I thought later in the Anton will Macon scene when Anton says to Macon you don't typically take the form of an elite. So because with anything, any character saying you're wondering if they're being truthful to the other character, but that was like cementing. And it felt so emotionally true. Yeah. What Zoe was saying to John here. But it's like, okay.

So what Zoe said there. And like to go back and think about in the earlier episode when she's talking about her husband, what she sees in him. Yes. Like the blonde, you know, a blonde bimbo essentially like he chose me instead. Right. Could have picked, yeah, somebody. Right. Want me.

Yeah. Yeah, so I think that like the fastest way to understanding a civilization is for you to start from disadvantage to understand that that is something that Zoe, that the manhunter believes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be curious to see what the conversation around that is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

On the guardians front again, like, and just Zoe and like a tie, because again there is this, I agree with everything you said, earlier, I think with Zoe, we were watching these sequences, these moments with John. I mean, we were talking about this before this episode, like the motel parting in episode four, like the question of, okay, it feels tender and sincere. Yeah, can those things be true at once where there's a part of, like, Zoe does actually want to protect John? And, you know, there's the gain and the obvious, like, okay, well, now I've made you part Manhunter.

I mean, there's even just such a, in the visual language of this scene, the overhead shot, It's so Anakin Skywalker is about to become Darth Vader. Like, that's like Anakin's burned body on the slab. What's so funny is that when Hal and John have their fight in the motel room, I also wrote down Anakin and Obi-Wan. But like, from the opposite. You know what I mean? Hal's really in the Anakin like, I hate you, sort of like energy. I mean, Hal is like literally like, don't deserve it.

It chose me. Yeah, I'm the chosen one. Yeah. So waiting for John. Empire. You've become the very thing. You swore to destroy. That would have been great.

John had the eye ground. It was over. What can you do? What can you do? I know. So, like, a little bit of Manhunter canon clarity sprinkled in when John says to Zoe, you know, they created you, right?

The Guardians. So we get that definitive and obviously that's canon. And to build toward, like then inside of that conversation, you know, you don't have to die. Hal does another kind of my protection has a price, right? The bargain that John will have to make there. And you get the ring that is rightfully yours.

I liked, I really liked, because so much of what John is going to reconcile with and grapple with is, what did the guardians want? Why? What did my parents want? And why? Zoe is now another version of that. The Manhunter wants me to take the ring. Why?

And so this question for John is we built toward him, leaving it on the counter of like, if everyone wants you to take it for their reason, can it ever be yours? You know? Allison, High Tower. How could I know? How could I know? That's a great point. I also think in terms of like, again, what I love about this episode so much is that, you know, she's being truthful with him and seducing him at the same time, right?

So when she says the ring that is rifle yours, that is like a seduction tactic. in addition to like everything else. It's just sort of like a flattery. And there was never a doubt in my mind that like John was going to like turn in any kind of way that he was ever going to be on the Manhunter side of things. Like that that was never a question I had. I don't think it's even answered necessarily in the flash forward. I just like don't, I just did not think that that is something that John would be tempted by. Right.

So, yeah. But I do think the emotional toll it takes on him to kill her. Oh, for sure. Is so juicy. Like, it's just juicy to know that it was like, it was a challenge. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And that it had a cost.

And that, like, he broke out. He, you know, he went to beat the shit out of Hal and all this sort of stuff like that. But the game, the plan was, he went and he got a sniper rifle. That's what he did. Like, that was the plan. And so, like, for her. And it devastated him to have to do it. Yes.

But similarly to the way that Zoe's like, I didn't really want to kill Abincer. I kind of believe her. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why I do, but I do. Maybe because her hair is so shiny and she's so pretty and tall. You see? She doesn't. Every time.

But, yeah, I agree with you. It never occurred to me. It never entered my mind and it's not supposed to enter our mind that John will align with the Manhunters. But the fact that there's not only the cost of what he has to do for a person needs to forge a connection with, but like then the potential parallel to the place that Hal gets. When Hal and Carrie are talking in front of her truck and it's like, you know, another conversation about fear, you're afraid.

And the fact that Hal is a character who like, as we've talked about many times now, this season can often only reduce his assessment to are you afraid or are you not afraid, right? And like that... Such an unusable binary. It's so limiting. It's so constraining. And so the fact that like the clarity that carry John in part because of what Hal shared was,

it's a lonely fucking life with John last week, the cost of pushing people away of not allowing yourself to form a connection. Now is the connection John should form with the Manhunter who is keeping an entire town in her cult? I mean, no, probably not. But still, it's a person who he felt close to that he had to eliminate. Her hair is so pretty. It is so pretty. By the way, she looks great with her clothes out.

too, just saying. I mean, I'll really miss her. The, not to get too biological here. We've already talked about what might, what might happen with the tissue, the DNA sample they took from John. On the subject of DNA. So the really kind of gnarly shot of the blood, the Manhunter blood going into the eyeball and like the quick kind of like spider web of red. Yeah, what does it mean that he's got a drop of Manhunter blood in him?

He's got Manhunter blood in him, the Manhunter, you know, the fabrication of the skin. But also, I was kind of like, wait, okay, she needed to take the little pinch of, the machine took the pinch from the arm, but like, they've had sex. Like, they've swapped bodily fluids before. Yeah. So she had his DNA. Was there Amy, was there, was there, was there, was there, like, Manhunter in John already? Or, like, like, Spike would say, does it have to be the blood, you know? manhunter in him from like a...

I don't know. You know, they fucked each other. Like, she puts her DNA in his body and now this procedure is possible? Yeah. Like, was there any... Like, is that part of priming? I need to be specific. Well, you know, the vaginal secretion, saliva, all of it, any of it.

Yeah. Words now. Into a microphone. I'm happy to. I don't know. I was like, wait, was there any, like, uh, Love is a brain, children, it's blood. All right.

Exactly. Our listener Jamie wrote in, on this sort of like how to how to conquer something from the outside or this us versus them, the idea of the social contract. You know, the idea of the social contract that goes through this existence of Rushville, Nebraska, which is just sort of like, we've all pledged allegiance to our queen Zoe. And because of her, our corn is juicy. Our hospitals are empty and we enjoy there's peace in the valley, right? This is the contract we've made. And we have sworn fealty to her. This is the bargain that we see Carrie Strike in the cafe.

Like, time will come when you will have to defend me. Will you do it? Yes. You know, okay. So that's the social contract. That goes back. I mean, we've talked about the social contract among many things. But I think chiefly among the last of us is when we've talked about it the most.

And we got this email from our listener, Jamie, just flagging this cool conversation that happened on Brne Brown and Adam Grant's podcast. they were talking to John Green. And the question of, can we build an us without a them? He said that felt relevant to so many properties that you cover Thrones, were the ring, Star Wars, that are compelling often because of us versus them. But in our world, can we find belonging within us without having to define the others? I'm not sure, but thought you might want to listen to the discussion on it.

So I have started the podcast. I haven't finished it. It's a great conversation. I think it's really interesting in terms of like a lot of these conversations we have. but like the othering of everyone outside of everyone who isn't us, right, to misquote Searcy, but like everyone outside of Rushville, this fear that Zoe has infected them all with of like the being conquered and the others and who comes in from the outside. And so she has just like cemented the us.

You can't spell Rushville without us. That's true. Right? Like the us of this community in that we are. are all allied together in the social contract and everyone else is the enemy, especially the lanterns, if not also these aliens with bombs in their bodies. You know, something to think about. All right. I think we've done all of that scene. Okay. Let's talk about Quitus. I would love to.

Experiencing the pleasure of the galaxy. Sexual Congress. Goupling. So we mentioned that Hal comes into the cafe, you know, know, puts up the shield before the people emerge. There is this sort of John Wick slash Mando-esque, all points on the entire town is mobilized against Hal. This is his evidence that he shows to Anton that he is like, I am the enemy of the Manhunter, so I am on. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If Johnster was the fiddle, he had Quetus of the Manhunter. John had a little cordis. But canally, I was making Stargett. We were very coitus.

Pelt Shandler, everyone. John had a little coitus is like one of the best written lines and delivered lines I've ever experienced. We were very coyteous. It's so funny. Fascinating. You've always presented as heterosexual. Hmm, you know, when you've experienced the pleasures of the galaxy as much as we have, it's less about preference and more about opportunity.

It's just incredible. In episode four, Hal said, I've seen some shit, been to a planet with sentient tentacles, but this is weird, right? When can I expect your Hal Jordan visits the planet of sentient tentacles and experiences the pleasure of the galaxy fanfic? Malory. Send it to you right now. It's already written. Okay. Great. And there's some fan art. Do it accompany it. E for explicit? Beyond.

H-E-A? Happily ever after? Dead dove do not open? Okay. Hal sort of sombole processes, I think, when Anton says innocent people are going to die, looks unsure about his own decisions as he looks at the ring. There's a couple moments, I feel like, where Hal's like, am I on the right path? Is that how you interpret this? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a desperation from Hal, right? There's a recklessness born out of the desperation of the circumstance. There's also obviously some hubris.

Like, even I felt like the compromised by the Manhunter played him like a fiddle. Lucky for you, I know who the Manhunter is and where you can find him so you can blow him the fuck up. Hal is just trying to take the decoy plot that was like used against him and just be like, I can do a better version of this. He's like, I can out weenie the weenie. Hal would literally say that. Yeah. You know, he would definitely think it and he would also say it. Sean had a little guys.

Little guys. So funny. Needed to laugh. It's an intense episode. So I was very grateful for this. Very, very amusing. It was that and we drew that? We drew that. It was so, so, so funny.

And this is where we get, though, they seduced the strongest in a given community, the alpha, bending them to their well. And you know that. Because it's not what Sinestro said. I already talked about the sedestra part of that. But you know that How's like, oh, wait. Damn. Shit. Is he the? Oh, wait. Like, yeah. Zoe didn't come for me. She went for. Yeah. Tough. Yeah. Tough to know it. Oh, boy. All right. RIP, ALE Ben. This is when the Macon Ranch is blown apart by suicide bomber aliens. One blows up the weenie. RIP possibly to the tech. Maybe.

Yeah. If she had more than one replicator, interesting. Yeah. Now, listen. Again, we're just assuming this is a replicator. I guess we've, like, built this entire story. We have no idea. Well, but it's interesting because it actually does, like, different from the skin fabricator that we see used in this episode. But two different machines, two different purposes.

That I'm just like one of them puts skin on and one of them builds you fully like it did with 3D Princey. Yeah. Has to be a Manhunter hybrid we've discovered. We've determined. We've just like decided all this. We have moved the number of times on this podcast. We've been like, hold your theories loosely.

And we're talking about this like it is fucking fact. We're clutching it. We have no idea if this is true. It's true. The great moment where the first of the lead car, because Anton and his other hit squad members will follow, but this lead car goes into the gate at the end. Yeah. They're like, oh, I was just sorry, directions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're like, get out, you know, put him against the car, pat him down. Now, look. He's beeping. The skeletal bomb activates with the quickness, but I was like the Macon Ranch militia too dumb to live. Like, we're going to take time to pat this guy down. Ailey Ben, she's not going to miss you at all. I really like the guy who ran hauled ass towards the weenie. That guy was great.

Good stuff. Yeah. And he made it. So make it prepares himself to pretend to be the Manhunter. This phone call was so good. Oh, it was so good. The switch to the language. But also just like how much careful prep has been done, right?

He speaks the language. He knows the first thing they ever said. each other, the last thing they said to each other. And to go back to this idea of like, this is like a breakup, right? Yeah. The first thing Anton never said to Zoe was don't stare at the sun's too long. Yeah. Does that not sound like a date night sort of romantic pickup line sort of thing, right? And then the last, you're a monster, which is like, you killed all my people, but like that's a breakup. You're responsible for an apocalypse. A cataclysm. And also you broke my heart. You're a monster. There are plenty of people broken up in the last thing they said to the other person was you're a monster.

I definitely. Yeah. Because you never did the dishes. Monster. Thank you for everything. Thank you for the extra time. I loved every minute of it. Yeah, knowing that he was on borrowed time, you know.

This was just great, this scene. I mean, Garrett Dillon had was really good in the show. I guess it makes a little more sense. Like, when we saw the San Diego Comic Con panel and we were like, why aren't they asking Garrett Dillan? and Porta and Jekanatha and more like questions. You know what I mean? We were just like, ask these great actors more questions. And they still should have.

But A, I think those actors were having to give this moderator, who we did not fancy, a bit more benefit of the doubt. A, they had to hide a lot of information about who their characters were. Oh, yeah. And B, looks like they're out of the book club. Look like they're out of the show. So they're like, you know, a couple episodes and done characters as well. Again, I was, like, so swept up in this conversation that I just wished.

It was a very satisfying mystery, and so I'm, I don't, I, I, I don't, like, necessarily want an alternate path where we knew the entire time that Zoe was The Manhunter and saw them talking about it openly and understood exactly how their operation was functioning. All the, like, benefactor stuff, the NDA stuff. It was really good. Yeah. It was compelling. Make it senior. Great actor. This, like, 30-second phone call.

Hall was fucking riveting. So I just, I do find myself wishing a little bit that we had gotten to see them interact so openly with each other. I also, more than this one time. I also just really like knowing that like, Macon Senior is like great. Like she's like a god who has visits to them, right? So like he is of the church of Zoe is like thank you for the extra time. I love every minute of it. Like all of that sort of stuff. That's savior exchange last year. Yeah. Yeah. But also, like genuinely does love her. She genuinely does love him. Yeah. In her way. Yes. And so then all the comments about John fucking her, you know what I mean? Where he's just sort of like, I'm not happy about it, but also my wife's a god.

So what am I going to do? What am I going to do? People are going to worship at her altar. Maybe fucked half the town. That's what she does. But she comes home to me. I'm the one she taught the language to. I'm the one who's like been chosen to pretend to be her.

To be worthy of this task. Yeah. I, on the, we, you know, we've got a lot of notes for The Manhunter, but we do find ourselves, like, believing a lot of the things that Zoe says and feeling like there's a truth behind it. Again, her hair is so shiny. It's beautiful. The two-year, I believe that

there's love there point. Thinking back to that, hilarious, by the way, we didn't mention this that like the exact the corner booth

that Zoe is not only in the cafe, but in the corner booth where she was waiting in a prior episode for John. In that conversation, the like,

you know, well, like, why are you with them? It's worth it. Like, I'm with them because I love them. You know,

it's like, and all these other reasons, but that that's also true. There's a little bit of a, I don't, really love what you said earlier on the conversation about just love stories, right? And there is, when you were saying that, it made me think a little bit of, I don't know, the like, Rob,

cat, it's stronger, it lasts longer conversation about like a love that is built out of a different circumstance than just lust and longing, right? Like, there's a different kind of trust and understanding you can forge methodically over time. A marriage. Yeah. You know, a partnership. Yes. Yeah. Really interesting. Do you think that like, so because of the extent to what you're saying, like, how much he knows, he was very prepared for to speak the language, to share these facts when Anton came. How many other versions of Anton could have come here? I don't know.

How many times did she do a genocide? That's my question. Oh, wow. That's my question. I thought it was just the one, but okay. I'm not so sure. Great. I am not so sure.

Anton, they do that we couldn't conceive, again, very end of marriage kind of language, I think. And then Anton takes Makin's heart out. I love the way he leaps up on the desk here. Very cool. You would never welcome death. And this is an important moment to watch one of Zoe's ex-lovers, Anton, cut this. heart out for the heart to not change. You know, so that primes us for later when it does. Right. But like that John has to do the same thing. Another ex-lover has to do it. The way that the

camera is just on their faces as they're cutting into the flesh of, you know, if he decided he believed to make it in any kind of way whatsoever, the flesh of a beloved, you know what I mean? And it's just, guess what, this episode ruled. And it's also just take the heart out. The emotional terms. of that, it was so violent and visceral. You could hear it. You could feel it. Literally visceral. Yeah. The strength that is required to do it. I, you know, could you do that? Could you carve into a rib cage? How sharp are those knives? Anton has an alien knife, but John. John is super strong. John is super strong, but he's just like hacking through a rib cage. Don't you need a bone cell for that? I don't know, guys. I've never, I've never, I've never cut open a rib, but like. I'm not equipped to comment. Let's, uh, let's ask the yellow jackets. You know?

They've sought some bodies up. Or maybe you can, like, cut between the rib and sort of, like, use your hand as a rib spreader. One thing, often we're like, you know, hit up the inbox. Don't tell us how to cut up a body. Nope. Don't want to know. You know, we often see. I have gotten emails about how to hide up.

That was for prestige. I can't remember which show we were talking about. But, you know. Did you, what did you do with those emails? Reported them to the authorities. Were they connected to very specific details from actual. from actual crimes. Definitely reported them to the authorities

that didn't put them in a box to use later. The like, I don't know, something about the, there's a version of this Anton Macon scene that is like, okay, first of all, on the Sinestra front,

you've got your Sanestra was right mug, you've had it the whole time. We knew about the Crystal Heart because of shirts made. Do it. Yeah. Furrow pillows.

It's Widow's Bay season. Why not? Shout out Ruth. They'll do some embroider needlepoint, whatever it's called. You know? Needle point. This crystal heart nugget that we heard Hal share with John last episode came from Sinestra. So this is like a small way of actually showing us that Sinestra was...

Right. Not only right, but telling how a truth thing, you know? Well, the best lie is always wrapped in. Yeah, too. A truth. A wield his weapon. And, you know, that's obviously like just in general with the ongoing assessment of control, you know, the fact that like the guardians, the reviled about the Manhunter's being guardian creations, this idea of like, okay, well, once we can't control

you and you don't do it, it's not that the manhunters weren't brutal or aren't brutal, but you're not doing exactly the thing we want, so we need to redo. Like, what does that clarity do for John toward the decision he makes? But with Anton and Macon, there's just like a version of this scene that is so like, show, don't tell, this didn't work, you know? And this was so not that. Like, we understood an entire history that had. transpired between these characters. So this worked a bit better for you than like, your dad was a snitch and you are a snitch. It's in the jeans. And it's part of why that opening scene did work. I'm like, this is like gorgeous. Haunting. Yeah. This is just so, so good to allow us to really understand.

And like the sorrow of that, like we couldn't conceive. Do you know what I mean? Like just sort of like, what's the pain here? You're grieving with them even though you've not spent a second with them. It's a, it was almost the conversation version of we talked about this in episode two when, when Anton and his crew captured John in the first place. And, you know, the mid-Bix comp and And Doran, like, we didn't see what John saw there, but we felt what we needed to feel. Same thing here, right? We're not getting, like, flashbacks paired with this or anything, but we are understanding

fully what we need to understand. And also, like, to use a, it's like, you have the old husband and the new husband, you know what I mean? Like, rips the heart out of a man who he thought there was, like, a 1% chance it could have been Zoe. Right. But if not, then it's like her new husband, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. And I like, you know, I really, what you said earlier, I really struck it too. Tele-nobella shit. Love it. There is, I don't know, like, it would be enough to go on this vengeance quest because the Manhunter had just decimated your people. That would be enough. But to have this extra personal, not only the personal hurt.

Yeah. But the responsibility that Anton is bearing. I like this person. Yes. 100%. Right? I just, and then like, Is there a comp there for our characters in the primary story?

Of who you've gotten close to and what the cost of that is. Carrie. All right. John phone home. He's talking to his parents. They're asking if he took the ring. We deserve an update. I'm out on these people.

I've been out. I'm out. On the comedy, the surprising comedy in the episode front. Come on. Was I on speaker? John killed me. This is like we're racing toward the guns and ammo. The tension is so high.

But I, like, I laughed because that was amazing. But yeah, this is, uh, this is an intense, intense thing on the, the kind of entitlement of, of, uh, where we deserve to have this information on our clock. We invested all of this in you. Yeah. We're in this with you. And he's like, back the fuck off. I'm in the midst of an alien attack. Also, again, like not a single.

This reminds me of one of my favorite screenplays all the time, which is tremors. It feels like there's not a single step. wasted. So why are we shooting up on the water tower so that later when the water tower dumps the darkness out, it's like satisfying. Why did John go into the guns and ammo shop and deal with those chuckle fucks so that he could break back into the guns and ammo shop? And we're just like, oh, we've been here. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, it's very tidy in its construction in that way. John's in his bare feet, very John McLean of him. This was amazing. Also, I would say, Aaron Pear's character in Rebel Ridge.

does get his shoes burned off at one point, but it's not really like a prolonged John McLean walking on broken glass-esque-like thing. But I was like, didn't he not have shoes on that one point in Rebel Ridge? And that's true. But like this is much more in the John McLean territory of him just like running around in his hospital gym jams

with no shoes on, you know. And his new, I'm sure it's definitely fine and nothing to worry about Manhunter skin. Created and forged skin. It was interesting actually that he like shared that information with his parents on the call. You know, you mentioned earlier what he says about Hal here, you know, almost for me alive in it, the car. I'm pretty sure he didn't want that to happen, but I'm not entirely sure, which is the point. Because I can't quit these two, and I want them to find a way back to each other somehow, even though the, you know, the heavier emphasis,

falls on the end of a point, right? So, but I'm not entirely sure which is the point is like carrying more weight there. Yeah. And yet I found myself really putting stock in. I'm pretty sure he didn't want that to happen. It's like a little glimmer of hope that John is at least open to the possibility that Howl would not have wanted it to go that way. We've already done this confrontation with with the darkness and the helicopter and the first person shooter POV green vision. And I'll just say, Hal and the goggles actually also got a laugh for me.

And then maybe because I was still thinking about Spike and his goggles. And then also, Zoe escaping the handcuffs because she literally just like left her arm behind. Again, I'm like, Hal. Like, we've spent the entire series. Hell, I want to believe. I want to root. But you make it sound. She didn't do it right away.

She was like every time he turned back and looked. He was checking. He was checking. And then. But I'm like, dude, we have had how many conversations since the very second, the started about tech we've never seen not ever once in the history of planet Earth. And it's like, let me just cuff her to the chopper. Now, that's where times. You know, you do what you need must. You do what you have to in urgent peril. But I'm like, this is the manhunter and you know that.

You thought this was going to work? What should he have done? I guess that's the answer. It's just there was no alternative. I don't know. Maybe like take a, can you? Can this Green Lantern How many, like, green constructions can one hold at a single time? Well, and we do get the ring charge 5% before this exchange. Right. So he knows he's working with limited. So he can't just put, like, a green bubble around her. I guess that's part of it.

He's got to save it for the green tornado that he uses to whisk Anton away. I bet John could hold many constructs at once. And how just the one. Just the one. I think the goggle cam, darkness cloud, worked a little better for me. I was like, this is kind of fun and cool. No, I mean, it was fun and fine. I'm just saying, like, it was fun and fine.

Yes, yeah, fair. I did get a kick out of the... And what I liked is that it wasn't, like, so, so protracted. Yeah, no, yeah. You know what I mean? It was long enough to feel like a legit set piece, but not so long that we were like, all right. Yeah. And we had gotten the setup for it with, like, it frankly paid off more quickly than I was

anticipating that that can't. No wasted. No. It makes me think of the... What do you go back to the slaughterhouse? Well, I feel like even that paid off because when making... Yeah, yeah. You know, with the little sensor under the table.

With the Matt Lauer button under the desk. God, God. And the little sensors activate all the lasers to just... Yeah. With Anton. Yeah. We knew what that meant because we had seen it. We knew what that meant because we had seen it.

But no jazz to warn us about the evil coming. No jazz can't be a good sign. I really did get a kick out of Anton just charging. You know, we just had this incredibly rich emotional sequence of him. And then he's just the beeping, drawing Hal's attention. Yeah. Better than the... This was a real premature ejaculation from Anton.

He activated too quickly. He started detonating and beeping too quickly. He wasn't inside the fucking cloud yet. He didn't even just to tip it. Or Zoe. Like, what, come on, Anton. He was going to make it, though. I mean.

But you can't wait too long. I guess, yeah. And we also don't know if that darkness works on him the same way it works on humans. True. Of the humans. True. You know what I mean? Pretty great when Hal just like turned, heard the beeping turn, saw him through a little, you know, goes out, tosses him up.

Yeah. He explodes and then just goes right back. Right back in. It was great. It was great. Good stuff. The Rushville Motel. I mean, what haven't we said about this fight that you want to say?

I just thought the savagery of it, the violence of it. Really good. The things that they do to each other, I mean, the, I was, you know, you were seeing, like, the, I mean, they both are choking the other at given points. A vicious punch to the thigh. I don't know why that way. The thigh, like, groin punch, the reaction to that. And I guess, like, was that the leg that had been pinned? been healed by a man-huh. Yeah, he doesn't know that he's gotten an entire new body built,

but he's like, oh, your thighs probably all bruised up from that glove box. Not you got a lot. Not you got melted in a car and rebuilt in the last hour. The fires of Mustafa claimed you. Um, the, like grabbing the lamp and, you know, swinging it, the, the way that John throws Hal into the wall and into the closet, just the way that in between some of the heaviness behind these punches, not just the, physicality, but the emotional weight behind them, the couple moments where they stop and just look at each other, really, really, really intense. The what the fuck are you doing?

You don't deserve this fucking ring. I don't deserve it. It fucking chose me. That Hal still doesn't know, first that he doesn't know that he wasn't know that he wasn't first and how sad that is. But also like the idea that eventually it did choose him and you can be worthy and then you can lose that. You can lose yourself, which is, of course, John's point at the end. I'm going to say, just because the rain didn't go to him first doesn't mean, like, he's the

only one who answered the question correctly. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, you know, he's still the worthiest. I mean, I think he's like, it came to me. In a weird. I just still don't understand this ring's process, honestly, but like. I like that he doesn't have the full. But he's like, I lifted Milnear. Exactly. No one else did, you know. He doesn't have the full clarity, but also it's Like it was true. You know, it was true. And then the fact that now he's not worthy of it and that that fall and having to confront that. And John's saying that so clearly and where that leads John is just really wonderful.

I thought that the way that Hal was, I've said like desperate or desperation a lot, the desperation with which he, my precious, like, crawled and scrabbled for it on the floor. Oh, yeah. Boy, you'll never fucking replace me. I think the way that he like holds on, like as John is ripping the later, as John is ripping the ring off his finger the way that he just sort of like tries to hold on. It's over. Yeah. Anakin. Yes.

He has the high ground. And he's just like, ah. Yeah, you. And it hits us so hard because it's like. You're harder hit that I am because that's like, hell has always been kind of a piece of shit. And a dickhead. And that's part of why he's like entertaining. But yeah, I think there's like.

I don't know. He's holding on to the power and the station and the mantle, but also he's like holding on for the last second that he can, before he can't deny anymore that these like fears, the things that other people have been saying about him, you're old, you're obsolete. It's like, okay, once that's off my finger, it's over. How do I quiet that? What shield do I put up against that? That's sad. Here comes Carrie. Hopefully she can help. That's sad. Man. John takes a shot, cries. I just, I saw you. Like, you know, I see you callback.

I see you Zoe. Also, the way that he has, I mean, hopefully, if he's connected to his mommy issues here, has to be thinking about shooting the apple off of his mom's head, of course, you know, like among his other sniper times with a sniper rifle. But like, you know, aiming at a woman that he loves head. Just all the target practice that's like defined his life. And, you know, when he's in the machine, we get the flashes. It's different getting the apple shot off your head and aiming the gun at your mom's head.

We also, we got the Grey Wolf Mission flashback in that really rapid fire stretch. A lot of flashback. Yeah. Which was really funny because I'm like, we just watched that episode. I mean, I understand that he's experiencing his own life, but I'm like, yes, I also just watched that episode. All right, John's still barefoot. There's a Tweety Bird Child's Watch and the Rubble. Oh, by the way, this was my gut bait.

It was another, chalk it up for my gut for Hal. Let's just say it. Okay, 50-50. Let's give him credit. He's not getting a lot of credit in this episode. Let's give him credit. It's a cooler guy. He's dead.

A woman and a child are crying over him. John says, I'm sorry. Again, to the monsters were the monsters. It hands for a watch, which when this feels important because it takes us back to John's lantern test, right? The draw the building we're in, but then the next test was a watch. Is there a watch? My father's watch.

The idea of like what John being able to do, construct the inner workings of the watch. Something as detailed as a watch, what that told the guardians and John about. So it just takes us back to John's relationship to his family, to the guardians, to the path, all of it. So does the bird that shows up here? That little bird chirping.

He takes the ring. Did you, for a second, think, because you hear the bird before we see it, did you think it was going to be the green bird? No, only because that ring is out of church. It's like, bird. But John is very special. He's like, I can.

drive four miles without gas. Like, I don't need any charge. One percent. I can do whatever I need. I do that all the time. By the way, how? I drive on zero all the time in my car. Don't tell the dealership. Makes me very nervous to hear that in California and Los Angeles where the freeway traffic could not be worse. Oh, I don't, actually I don't do it as much in LA. Okay, good. I used to do it at home a lot, though. The fact, by the way, also, now is this self-preservation, yes. But like, so John has Hal in the chokehold and Hal has the ring on still at this point. There's barely any charge left. Protective bubble around them both.

That's true. Protective bubble around them both. I mean, it would be really hard to protect himself without protecting John. But I did at first write down, oh, he protected them both. And I'm like, how would he not have protected John in that moment? But I'm with you. I'm inclined to give Hal some credit for that. For sure.

John is walking through the ash and the rebel of Rushville, gets surrounded by the town's militia. This is where Carrie tells him to stand down. Dude, this needle drop. Ask about how did you talk to me about it? How do you feel about it? I googled this because I was just like, ooh, this song's really good. So I had not heard the song because I don't really listen to that much contemporary music, but this is Bonie Vairs, Things Behind Things Behind Things, which now I've listened to a few times.

Great song. The lyrics obviously very applicable, but more the mood, the mood that it set and the length for which, like the accompaniment, there was something so intense and somber about the calculus, this idea of the choices and the layers, right? As John was walking toward this major decision. I don't know. I really, this was a good needle drop. I quite liked it.

I love Bonny Ver. Walking through the decimation. It's always a good time for Bonnie Bear. Bonnie Bear is like a very cozy fall. I mean, it's scorching hot and disgusting here in Los Angeles, but allegedly. Unbearable. Allegedly. Absolutely unbearable.

Allegedly we're in cozy season. So, all right. I don't want it. I would be Lantern and a Guardian walk into a bar. She says the ring looks good on him, asks about Hal. He says he's still alive. She looks. She looks.

She looks. She looks. She looks. Bombed. Crushed. What's in the bag, your sins and consequences? Do you guys think it's an excellent name for an IPA? Sins and Consequences?

Absolutely. Stone. Oh, yeah. Oh, I love a stone. Yeah. I love a stone. That's a great one. Loganitas.

Call me. Sure. Sins and consequences. also love Luganitis. All right. Grape area, Brewers, actually. Okay.

She's got, I mean, I've always loved these driving gloves on her. She's worn them. But like, like, the fact that she's handling the heart with, like,

I mean, they may or may not be made of kid. But, like, kid gloves, you know what I mean? It's just sort of like, kid gloves are something very specific. I'm not going to, you know,

it could be cap's leather. I don't know. But like, Very like handling it with gloves, like just sort of like a remove from. Even we made mistakes, all we can do is correct them. She just kind of shoves the heart in the bag down the bar, I guess, to your point, so that she can later put it in a case and mount it on her mantle. Yeah.

She would prefer it be Hal's still beating heart that she puts in the case on the mantle. But I love this part. John listened to our Presti's TV conversation with Michael Waldron. Check it out if you haven't. talks about what he thought having the room would make him feel pride, gratitude, power, versus how it actually makes him feel empty. I was just saying, I mean, I didn't, I was just, like, nodding vigorously along when Waldron was telling us this story on the Prestige TV podcast about sort of, like, what it meant to,

what he thought he would feel, given a certain accomplishment in his career and how he just like came home sat on the couch and felt like more depressed and empty than he's ever felt in his life. And I will just say like when I got my first cover story for Vanity Fair and I was like, oh, this is going to be the, oh, it's not okay. Yeah. When we published our book and I was like, man, I published a book. No. Like you feel worse.

And then like later, you're like, you could look back later and be like, oh, those are nice things that I accomplished. And you're grateful and you're like, you know, like all these other things. Like you're not like a snotty little brat about it. But you're like, ooh, I really thought this would be the thing that made me feel. like I've done something or I'm whole and complete or whatever and guess what it's not. And so like putting on that ring

he's just sort of like huh. So I mean like I think all of it was building up to this, you know, but I don't think he had really made, I mean, per him and not really made the decision until he had the ring. Yeah. You know? Like all the things he says in this episode is very, is leaning

very much like I don't want it. But like really it took the ring finally actually being his. for her to be like, wow. And I think the question of like whether any one thing that happens as a final push toward this decision would have been enough absent the other things is like interesting. One step after another down the path to get here. Yeah.

You know, and especially given the nature of the path in John's life and like thinking about how it's all about this goal and this thing you work toward, the idea that like, you know, he's taught. So we have everything with Zoe. We have the confronting the conversation with his parents. We have confronting how he's feeling about the guardians. And of course we have Hal. And what he says about Hal here, right?

Hal betrayed everything to keep the string. His code the oath, even himself. And it broke him. Probably doesn't even remember why he wanted the damn thing. And neither do. Boom. That was just, and then puts it on the counter and we just close on the shot of it there. Like, this was sick ending.

Incredible scene. I love. Okay. Laura Linney. I mean, in the show more than I thought she would, in the show more than Cinesh. Yeah, yeah. In the show, I thought she was going to be like a one and done episode or something like that. But like she keeps popping in.

Great for me. I'd love to see more Cineshro, please. I need it. Need it. But how unimpressed she looks by him here. Yeah. You know what you mean? She's invested.

Like, there's a way in which she could have looked like disappointed, like, or angry or all sort of stuff like that, but she's just sort of like, this disdain of just sort of like, okay. Yeah, and like you think back to then what we heard her say when she flickered into the hotel room, the gaslighting and the manipulation of like, I had my doubts and I should. Her gut. Yeah, I should have listened, which like was a tactic to manipulate him.

Your mother was wrong. But then, like, we have this larger question. You know, you were asking, was it last episode? Yeah, it must have been last episode about, well, like, what did they make of how from like minute one? You know, just like how does this, the guardians in general, but this guardian, like, think about humanity. Well, and it's such an interesting thing to consider. Here's my question.

Okay, so John gives up the ring. We don't know what happens yet. But, like, again, our ongoing question is how the fuck did Guy Gardner get a ring? And so is it like the guardians pick Guy Gardner next? Is that what happens? Or does a ring pick him? We don't know. Right.

Yeah. But, like, either way, I still have questions about that as, like, who's worthy or not. But like, if the guardians like spend decades investing in John Stewart and John Stewart's like, I don't want it. And they're like, okay, fine, we'll give it to Guy Gardner. Well, right. Like, is that a new, a new candidate? How we taught, one of the things we talked about in episode three when there's the like entering the door, someone's exiting the manager's on the- How many candidates were there? Do you go to another candidate now? And they were like, that hair? That's our guy. Did he have that hair from when he was like a little, little baby?

No, but like, the interview process was two weeks ago. But I'm just about envisioning. What is like little baby guy? I just got right out of the womb. But yeah, and then like, you know, so we have the guardian question. We have the Guy Gardner question. But we also have the John question because inside, we have to, I have this question. Oh, what happens to John next?

Well, there's like inside of the story, but then also in the like larger DCU, this has like, this is a question to think about with three. episodes left in season one of the show and whatever the plan is for lanterns overall. But then there's just like, John Stewart is going to be Green Lantern in the DCU. Like, he's in Man of Tomorrow. So given that we've solved who the other Manhunter is and who killed Al and all that sort or something like that. The ongoing mystery. Yeah. We're probably wrong about all this stuff. But the ongoing mystery. Not about Noah. Not about Noah. We are not going to be wrong. I mean, we might be. I would like us to be right about Jason Ritter as well. Being a manhunter. That would be. great. But

how does John get the ring? Because he doesn't have a ring, as we talked about in episode one. When he reaches to look at Howell's hand and Hal doesn't have the ring in the 2026 bleacher death scene, John does not have a ring at that point. And he seems like surprised. To not see it on Hal's hand.

Because why check it? But yeah, it's interesting to consider that. So then there's, I guess like we have a few questions. First of all, just on the relationship front. The ring is a part of it obviously. But like, what is the potential? path for Hal and John. That's one question we have, right? And a hope that we have that is still there, right? I think, like, the insight that John has here about how what he says feels like pretty right in a lot of ways and hard to hear, but fair. But we can apply, like, the touch of empathy

that we have from everything we've learned about Hal to that and say, like, okay, the ring becomes the only thing he can hold on to for the reasons we've already talked about. You're afraid to lose this one way that you define yourself, the one way you find purpose. And then if that's the only thing, then what holds is a lot over you, right? Work-life balance, buddy. I know. We are not equipped to comment. Peter Parker and how?

John's clarity, like, okay, I'm going to seek life on my terms. Finally, right? That's what John is saying here. It's a rejection of a thing, but it's also an embrace of something else. Those things are inextricable from each other. So finally, John being at a place where he could say, like, what is right for me? We talked about in, you know, the scene and epit. Art school.

Right, exactly. I was going to say we talked about art school of like sort of John getting to do thing that he loved, but also like that his mom had applied for him, right? Right. So, and made him an even better candidate to be a lantern. Yeah. Burn it. John now being in a place to say, what do I want, what don't I want, what do I want, why?

And then how am I going to pursue that? And in this moment, that meant rejecting the ring because it didn't feel like what he thought it would feel, what other people told him it should feel like. Does that mean he can't work back to wanting the ring again? Oh, no. I feel it's, and he has to do that on his terms. Right. Right. And what's exciting about that is like sort of similar to thinking about a Rust Cole in True Detective.

Yeah. And sort of like who Rust was when we first meet him in the past, you know, short hair, tie looking nice, looking great, McConaughey. Then like broken down by his experience in the past timeline. Ponytails and crushing beers. But then like where we find him on the end of that is not back to where he started. but in a better place. Yeah, right. So where will this 2026 journey take John Stewart?

Right. With only three episodes to go. Yeah, what's his path? What will make him, what will his reasons be? Yeah. You know? Yeah, three, I mean, on the one hand, I feel like we packed a ton of story into five episodes. On the other hand, three episodes is not a lot.

Nope. That's not a lot. I'm excited. I'm excited to see where it goes. And, like, what is how? What happens? What happens? Those are a lot of questions about John. Like, what's next for Hal Jordan who has been the Green Lantern for decades and now is not?

So a decade between not having the ring and winding up dead on the bleachers. Yeah. Though again, as you just said, like, John did reach for his hand. Like, is there any chance he gets it back? Could Hal get the ring back? Could that happen? O'eryana's dead body. Well, I'd love to see Leanna's dead body because fuck her.

And mounted on your mantle. Okay. Theory Corner and comic spoilers. Great. Incredible that the first bullet point. is Noah is a manhunter watch and that there was ever a possibility that we would wait till now to talk about that. I was trying to kind of do that for Carlos to make it like a convenient little social package for us. It was impossible.

It was impossible. Noah's a Manhunter. We agree. We think Billy might be a manhunter. A whole bunch of bullet points, but I think we've hit them all. Does Billy know he's a manhunter? We don't have a relationship like that about Billy in a previous episode. Like we've never had sex.

Noah came out of a machine, actually. Billy. Anthony O'Bla blah blah. Watching Noah is the most important thing during the attack. We already talked about that. On the like Noah and or Carrie killed howl front. Here's the carry front. Okay.

It's the pinky. She says it's better if I do it in terms of chopping off the pinky. The way in which Carrie's like, I'm going to do the thing. Or like for. for Zoe to say, I want someone who would give up a piece of themselves. So there's give a piece of themselves as in like a DNA sample for the machine.

But also an emotional piece. But emotional, like, who you are. So, like, give up a piece of herself. Like, if, if Carrie killed Hal. Yeah. I don't, I'm with you that when we see that scene in the pilot, she feels genuine sadness. Yeah.

About him. Yes. So if she killed it, I don't think it's something that she, like, wanted to do. Right. Do you know what I mean? So, like, give up part of herself in order to do that. That won't be sad. I don't know.

Jeez. I just feel like this is the kind of show where, like, every line. Sure. Oh, yeah, I agree. Has to count for something. I mean, that would be. It's better if I do it. Yeah.

It'd be great to have a reason for that. Pinky coming on. That carry scene, other than the bangs. The bangs aren't. They are. right. I retract the comment. They are.

Someone who knows how to fight their way out, someone willing to give up a piece of themselves. Can I count on you? Yes. On the comic book lore theory front, there's a popular fan theory. We got several emails about it. The idea that Leanna,

our beloved Laura Linney, is a comic book character named Scar. This is what our listener, Matt, said. So Scar is a guardian who turn on the other guardians, a corrupted former member of the guardians who turns on the others.

And kicks off this storyline called The Blackest Night, which I have, have you read? No. Okay. I know I have a sense of the story.

I've read some of it. It's a lengthy arc, but I've read some of it in the weeks that we've been working on this. And like, it's fucking cool. Yeah. You know, it's D.C. wide and it involves a resurrection of dead heroes and also corruption of current heroes and stuff

like that. And so like the idea of like a zombie like that your loved ones can become zombies. Anyway, they're clearly not doing that in the last three episodes of this season. But like is that something we're going towards? I think it would be really cool if they did Black as night. Would they do it like a DC like would James Gunn do something like across the DCU? Like, could we get, you know, our current Superman, our current Supergirl, like, blah, blah, involved in this sort of, like, universe-wide event? It would be pretty sick. I mean, we have Nathan Phileans, Guy Gardner in Superman, and we know because he was in the trailer and he crashed the Comic-Con panel. Yeah. He's in this show where tonally, he does not belong.

He does not belong. And so to me, that means anything is possible in the DCU-connected universe. And if Guy Gardner can be in this television show and Superman, they can figure out a way to make any of this work. I think the Scarth theory is really interesting. I think we have a really good bit of evidence inside the show so far that this is true. Remember we – and this had not occurred to me previously, but like, remember we talked about in episode three? I was just like, this is interesting and feels like – Oh, that we didn't see her face.

We did not see her face. Yeah, yeah. I think that's like one of the biggest, like... In real time, I was not like, oh, is that because she's scar. I thought it was because they thought it would look too goofy to show it and they're trying to like keep it grounded. They're like, the Sanestro being pink is enough. That's as far as we're going. I mean, because if you think about like Anton and his people, like, they just look like guys.

You know what I mean? So they haven't like gone full sentient tentacle. In real time, that was my thinking too. It was just like this wouldn't, they don't want to like commit to the look yet or it doesn't feel like it. belongs here, but like now it feels very possible that the answer is because we would see the scar and we will in fact see the scar on the side of her face. The scarred guardian usually called scar for short. I like this theory.

It's fun. It would be fun. It would be like I think it would be extremely cool. No, okay, I'm of two minds because inside of the DC universe of storytelling, I like the idea. I mean, obviously, like, Supergirl and Superman are connected. Superman is already connected to this Lantern universe because John Stewart was going to be in the next movie. Guy Gardner was in Superman is going to be on the show. They haven't really figured out there.

Gotham stuff yet. Right. So, on the one hand, it is all connected, obviously, like peacemaker, all this sort of stuff like that. But on the other hand, I like the idea of them not going too far down the sort of, like, like previously interconnected universes of comic book movies, like maybe we're ready for because that has really bit Marvel in the ass ultimately. It was like the key to their success and then part of the key to their downfall. And so when we think of something like Clayface, you know what I mean? Like I like the idea of let's just tell cool, fun stories and like,

to your point about tonal tonality, like the idea of a Guy Gardner in this show, I'm really curious to see how that works. Like, that is really a fascinating prospect. But, like, if we can have the crossover while keeping the tone feeling more distinct, yeah, that's something that I would like to see. But the way in which the MCU started to feel flat, and then I just never wanted people to feel like they have to do homework. So I'll be curious to see how Guy Gardner shows up here. Like, if he shows up and it's just sort of like, you don't have to, I mean, everyone saw, you know, the Superman movie, but like, right, the homework right now is already done and super manageable because it's so, because it's just Superman.

But that's how it started with Marvel. That's how it started. You know, so. Yeah. No, it's a good flag. Well, so on the scar theory corner front as well, like your agenda to restore Sinestro's good name, that part has to be on our mind too in terms of like the. By my march. Sinestro killer guardian?

Are you sure about that? Are you sure about that? Or did he cause a scar on her face? and she's like, I will burn everything. It's probably that. That's probably that. Yeah, I mean, I just think it is... With the shard of one of his...

I was right, Mucks? Yeah. Could be that. Could be that. Yeah, just as I was right. That would be incredible. Oh, my God. Yeah, I just do think no matter what it is deeply suspicious

that we have only seen Leiana acting on our own, wildly suspicious. It just has to mean something. It could mean we weren't ready to commit to the other Guardian characters. Yeah. But for a story reason. Jason Beaman and Tom Pelfrey and Julia Gardner were not available. As you know, I would love that. Let's get Rachel in here, the whole Ozark crew.

Yeah. I think this is, I like this. This is cool. I'm into it. All right. Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com, if you have any further thoughts or theories on this front. How will you cope if no is just like a, like just a kid? Just a boy.

Just a kid. A real weenie. A real sort of like look over here. And it was Jason Ritter all along. Dude, what if we got weanied? We got Halloweened and it was Jason Ritter all along. It would be Jason Ritter all along, wouldn't it? I mean, that would be wonderful. Yeah. That would be wonderful. Hachag Billy did it. Billy. The first pancake. What was like, wasn't the first line that a character says to Billy? Like, usually it's the villain who offers to In the courtroom, let me find this. Oh, that Hal says.

Usually is a villain who offers to like tons of money with no strings attached or whatever. Okay. So Billy has charged into the courtroom. Yeah. Legal stuff. Yeah. Matlock, Matlock, Mattlock. Yeah.

Exactly. And then despite enthusiastically accepting the making services, Hal says, I tend to find those strangers who give me a couple hundred thousand dollars, no strings attached. usually turn out to be the bad guys. Billy all along? Billy all along? Billy all along? What if that's not about Will Makin at all?

But Billy. Again, that feels like a Jason Ritter casting spoiler in a fun way for those of us who care about Jason Ritter, which should be all of us. Melanie Nalinski, we await your comment on this. Oh, man. It's only three left, sad.

Exciting to see. Yeah, can't wait. What will season two of this show? It's deeply wild to see, well, will there be a season two? God, Penguin. Yeah, what's up with that? Canceled. Jeez.

All right. Thank you to Carlos Sherboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Rangipal, Jomea, Jomea, Jomey and Donoron, and John Jones helping out. Yeah. And thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you to Joanna Robinson. Thank you to those crazy swingers the make-it. We'll miss them.

I will miss the makins. Thank you to Ily Ben. Oh, my God. Thank you to Anton. You went out strong. Shout out Bitsy. Bitsy. Shut up Bitsy.

Table 4. Two. See you soon. Bye.