House of R - 'Loki' Season 2, Episode 1 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

There is no flaw in this logic: It's time for a deep dive! Mal and Jo are back at the TVA to bring you their deep dive into the Season 2 premiere of 'Loki' (10:37). They take a look at the rocking premiere and what Loki and the TVA need to face in this new adventure (23:11). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Ben Lindbergh. And Jessica Clemens. And we are the hosts of Buttonmash, the ringer's video game podcast on the Ringiverse feed. We are in the midst of the biggest blockbuster gaming month, either of us can recall. We're talking about Spider-Man 2, Super Mario Bros, Alan Wake, Five Nights of Freddy's, Assassin's Creed Mirage. We will have our hands full, you can have your ears full with us talking about these wonderful video games. On the Ringerverse feed, weekly throughout this month, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts.

Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offers.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Just wanted time to think. It was an impossible choice, but she seemed so certain. How could she be given the possible consequences? I just want a time to think.

Slow down, Loki. You wanted time to think, so let's think. It's okay. Mobius, we got to the man at the end of time. And he made sense. We thought it was about freeing the timeline, but that brings only more malevolence, more violence, more war, more of him.

They're coming. They're all coming. Greetings and welcome to House of Our, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the TVA, but also to our new House of Our podcast feed. Joining me today, here to make sure we all know that everything we've been doing is wrong and all our gods are dead. it's my house of our permanent title co-host

Joanna Robinson What's up bad babies? Bad baby I just have one really important thing to say to you I've ever been Yeah If anything goes wrong Loki Prince of Lies will be my constant

Loki Is that you Where are we talking about loss? today. That's a promise for me to you. I thought you were going to say happy potaversary. Joe, it's October 8th. It's our two-year poddiversary. That's co-hosts. What is time? Time works differently in the TVA, but even so, marking the occasion. Differently in House of Arborcer. Happy two-year anniversary. I think two years is cotton. Cotton. So I should buy you a garment of some kind. Yeah, like a nice.

TVA button down with a holster I can wear over it. You would crush that look. Absolutely. Thank you. Maybe that'll be my Halloween outfit this year. You would, yes, do that. Okay, in case anyone can tell, we are here today to dive deep into the Loki Season 2 premiere.

But before we start scrawling the word skin in the side of a dusty monitor, some quick programming reminders. If you're new to the new house of our feed, welcome. We'll be here twice a week for the rest of time, whatever time means, wherever you are. And we invite you to follow along and to give us those five stars because we love them, keep them coming. Yeah. The Loki coverage, it is a ringer-wide pursuit.

A phenomenon. The midnight boys. Poo-boo! Beow! We'll have an instant reaction to the newest episode of Loki waiting for you when you wake up on Friday mornings. Jessica Clemens will have a video podcast, Easter egg breakdown of every new Loki episode. You'll be able to find that on YouTube and on the ringerverse. Daniel Chin will have weekly breakdowns on the ringer.com.

What a great website. It's a party. And then we will be here. We're here. With the deepest of dives. We're going to have Loki deep dive all season long. dive in dive in one McNugget at a time

just every morsel of goodness in these episodes all the way down to Obie's level of the TVA that is where you will find us we have a couple

non-podcast programming announcements though to hit today first of all we're doing a live show the ringerverse squad will be gathering in Los Angeles

on October October 30th, that's a Monday. It's the day before Halloween. Maybe that's where you'll see me wearing that Loki holster. Joe won't tell us what her costume might be. She's keeping it a surprise. If you want to know, you have to come to the live show. We should say as a PSA, my apologies, we are allowed to wear costumes. We kindly request that attendees do not. That is the venues request not ours. But yeah. You can get your tickets at terragram ballroom.com. That's the venue. This is in downtown in L.A. Get them while you can. Come to the show. The whole Ring ofverse family is going to be there. It's going to be a blast. But that's not the only announcement. It's a special week in

the Ring of Verse family because my beloved co-host has a book coming out. This Tuesday, October 10th, MCU, the reign of Marvel Studios hits shelves near you. If you haven't pre-ordered it yet, I don't know why. Do it right now. There's still time. then go buy it again on Tuesday. Get your copies. Soak up every word of this magnificent, magnificent, magnificent book. Go to one of Joanna's book events. Get it signed.

Is there anything you would like to add about this incredible thing that you have birthed into the world along with your co-offers? I genuinely have true. Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Edwards. No, I genuinely have tears on my eyes. It's very sweet. I didn't know you're going to do that. Yeah, I have a book coming out.

how fortuitous that there's also a Marvel show for us to talk about. One might think we planned it, but we did not. So, yeah, MCU colon the reign of Marvel Studios out in stores on October 10th. And yeah, please do. If you're going to be in New York Comic-Con, we're doing a panel there. You can go to the MCU Book.com for all the details of the tour. A few things have been sold out already. Mallory and I will be at the Grove, the BNN at the Grove tomorrow.

We're recording this Sunday. So tomorrow or today, if you're listening to this on Monday, it is technically sold out. But I've also heard from a few people that you never know if people aren't going to show up. That happens. So you can still come and hover and see if you can squeeze in. I'm sure. I'm sure there will be open spots a few. So come on down.

I love that, Barnes & Noble. We don't know what we're going to do. I believe talk to each other, which is something we're. We'll figure it out after this spot. D.O.K. yet. It's going to be great. I can't believe I get to see you tomorrow. What a treat. I know. I'm so excited. I'm a little bit of a week for you. I'm so proud of you. I think we shall see Steve there as well as some other folks. So yeah, the whole family's going to be there. It's going to be incredible week for you.

We're just so proud of you. You're the best. Thank you. Joe. Yes, Mal. For updates on your book tour, people should head to your Instagram, your Twitter. If people want to know when we've published a podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah. What would you recommend? Oh, there's social handles for the Ringiverse at the Ringiverse on all the socials at Ringiverse. And Jomey is just absolutely crushing it. Just absolutely accosting and bombarding his fellow Ringerverse hosts to get them to do bits and bobs for, you know, online. If you want to ogle Ben Lindberg, that's your business, not mine. So you can do that on our socials. You can also email us.

Yeah. Obits and Dragons at gmail.com. That's Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Got a lot of emails about combines. Got a lot of emails about dill pickles. Got a lot of emails about apples. Only a few emails about Loki. You guys are going to have to step up that Loki game.

And can I just say, this is a theory-rich show. I would like to read all your most bananas, Loki's theories. Like, I want to hear them. Send the theory and then sign off with your Apple. sign off with your pickle now. Let's keep it going. Mallory, I'm not going to ask our guests to sign off with their pickle. That might have been very contextually confusing.

I'd like to clarify that this is a reference to last podcast where we discussed which type of pickle everybody prefers. But best not to solicit anything having to do with pickles in an email. Pickle picks? No. All right. So no, none of that. And then also, if you're so inclined, would you consider subscribing to this podcast and The Ring or Verse? Just, you know, then you got your finger on the pulse. Yeah. Paul the pod. Why not? Paul the pod. Lastly, it's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning.

Sign it with your pick. Today's podcast will feature plot points. from the Loki Season 2 premiere, or Aboros, written by Eric Martin, directed by Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead. Also on the table, anything that happened in Loki season one,

anything that has ever happened in the entire MCU, the first five phases, and anything from Marvel Comics canon. It's all fair game today. We may mention, like, a thing or two from a Loki trailer for season two,

but only occasionally. Okay. If we're too late, we'll be lost to time forever. So let's pod. Joanna. Hi. One of the fun things about starting a new show run is we get to rename our

recurring segments based on quotes from the new show. So our opening snapshot for our Loki pods will be called, I don't know about calling, maybe gently whispering. I loved it. I loved it. New music from Steve. I loved it.

A little spooky. A little OB. Is that one of you here? Yeah. Sets the mood. Tats us wondering. Timmy why me? How many times do you think we'll say

TimeWimee today? The limit does not exist. I wrote it in my notes so many times. Really feeling the Doctor Who effect after having consumed an incredible amount of Doctor Who content with you this year. Okay, Joe, opening snapshot. Yeah. Your quick overall thoughts.

This is our taste. We're going to go scene by scene through the episode, but as a little sample here. Yeah. A little French fry. A little sip of the milkshake. What did you think of this episode of television? I'm very susceptible to seeing McDonald's in a program and then immediately consuming a lot of McDonald's.

Mallory went to the Logi premiere and then came home and ordered. Immediately. DoorDash from McDonald's. Immediately. And then I need everyone. Can I add you on the shake front? Sure, of course. Go for it.

Yeah. So she plated her food. That's fine. People do that. I was home. She took her shake, strawberry, if I am correct, and decanted it into a glass. Yeah, I had to let it breathe, you know, like a fine wine. I would like to know.

You had to aerate it, right? I would like to know, for my listeners, if they've ever decanted a shake. And now, to be fair, I always do this when I'm home. This has to do with Mallory's special relationship with germs. So I think it is, I think you're a beautiful preacher of the world. And this is absolutely unhinged behavior. I accept the feedback. It's fine.

It's the glass for me. As you know, I once recorded a podcast with our colleague Chris Ryan. And it is on the hottest take feed. And it is called Home Jeans. And on that podcast, we discuss my compulsion to change into a new outfit every time I get home. So this should not have surprised you. Delicious meal, though. Joe, what did you think of the episode?

I really liked this. I think I might have even, I mean, it's not a competition, but I think I might have even liked it more than you did. And which that never happened. So here we are. Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes it does. Sometimes.

Yeah, rarely. And yeah, I just had a really, I was just so happy to be back. I think, you know, we know that the Midnight Boys liked it, some other pals of ours liked it. We also know that some critics did not like it. I watched the first two episodes of the screener. I did, yes, tell the Midnight Boys they should also not be afraid to watch a second episode. And for the record. Incredible moment

on the Midnight Boys podcast this week. Incredible. Van threw me all the way out of the bus. And Steve is final edit on this so he might edit this out. But I should say,

Jomey and Steve watched the second episode. Did they not? Like I told them to? Well, they went to the premiere where they showed to. Exactly. So, Malory watched two.

Steve, well was in your rights to edit that out. Yeah. We were at the premiere. They showed two at the premiere. We did not watch beyond that. That's all. And that's all I was advocating for.

Just if you're at the premiere, why not watch all the episodes are going to show at the premiere? premiere. That's all I was advocating for. No one here has watched all four episodes on this podcast. And I watched them before reviews came out, before I'd even talked to some of my TV critic pals. And I was, like, stunned to find out that they didn't like it. And I was like, oh, okay. And I, you know, had conversations with them about why. And a lot of it is like, A, too confusing. B, and I think a lot, I think it's suffering a little bit from some of that Asoka. problem if you want to call it, of people feeling like they're missing out on something. Whereas, like, I really don't think you need to have seen quantum mania or multiverse of madness

or anything in between Loki season. We pick up literally where we left off. I don't think you need to have seen those other films in order to understand what's going on here. But I think some people are afraid you do and are feeling Marvel fatigue and all of that. And so I was just thrilled to be back in the TVA, production value off the charts I keep saying production design

when talking about why I like this why I like the show but like I don't think it's silly because we have been watching so many things that feel so especially in the MCU as we go into like quantum realms and out in space and stuff like that

feels so untactile and Loki both in this first season and the second season feels so tactile there's just like clever or cute cute little posters everywhere and then like obi's workshop. Seventy minute lunch break? No time for seconds.

There might be, there might be a digital like back wall. But his workshop like and those shelves, like he interacts with them. They are there. We're not in the volume. And so that might have locked to me. And then most of all, and we talked about this. You can feel the banana and the shoot tube.

I could smell it. And I have such an issue with an old banana. Oh, man, when I was in middle school, I broke my arm. And actually, wait a minute. Was this when I sliced my knee open and was in the immobilizing brace? I think it was then. Oh, you were so cool. Instead of a couple back-to-back injuries.

Mostly, and we talked about this when we talked about the Loki, when we did our Loki Hall of Fame episode, as I care about the relationships. And so I care, I just care about watching Mobius and Loki be together. That's all I care about. And then I care about watching Loki and Sylvie be together. And so, you know, we got that only briefly and we'll see how long we have to wait to get more of it. But honestly, production design plus Loki and Mobius viving together, plus timely shenanigans, which I love, as you know. Plus Kihei Kuan joining the cast, incredible.

Absolutely fantastic addition. Wonderful. East Bay Legend, Rafael Cassell, joining the cast. Wonderful. Yeah, I had a great time with the Loki premiere. What? This is great. Delightful.

Thrilled. I also had a blast. I really liked the premiere. There's a scene that I am interested in talking about to maybe explore a couple of the questions I have about the setup for the season. And I think broadly the very like, timey, why me plot-centric nature of the premiere has me wondering. how much of the season will be like tonally distinct, not in a good or a bad way. I'm just genuinely curious.

Like, will this Eric Martin's season feel different in notable ways, stylistically, totally structurally from the first Michael Waldron season? I missed a tiny bit of, one of the things I loved so much about season one, and we talked about this a lot in our Loki Hall of Fame episode. If anyone hasn't listened to that,

go check it out. It's waiting for you in the feed. We inducted Loki, so the first inductee into the House of our Hall of Fame. and we talked about all of our favorite things about the character over the entirety of the MCU to date. Those examinations in the first season of what is my nature, what is human nature, what is our capacity for change,

what can we learn about from each other? Those are my favorite things about season one. There were a couple great moments in that mold in this first premiere. I always long for those. But broadly, I'm with you. When Loki and Moeus were back together, it's just like it's sinking into a warm back.

It's curling up in a warm blanket. You just feel like you got to go home again. And it's the best. They're like my favorite duo to watch on screen, genuinely. And I thought the premiere was inventive and creative and vibrant. It was like visually very compelling. I love all of the set design and the production elements and the everything you're identifying about the things that if you want, you don't have to, but if you want to freeze frame and look at all of the little clues, it's just a really.

rich and rewarding show to parse in that way. But even if you're not doing that, if you're just watching it through it real time once, it feels like such a lived in full world. And the way that the mythology built in this episode and the way that the certain key scenes where the lore expanded took the time to pause and say in an organic fluid natural way,

we know that you have this question at home and we're going to incorporate it into our script, I thought was brilliant. Like there are a lot of shows that just either never try to do that or really fuck it up in a hamfistic capacity when they attempt to. And I thought that was expertly done in the premiere. So it was a blast be back. I have, love, love lucky. I have but one small quibble with the time logic and stuff so, and I'll talk about it. It's very minor. Can't wait. But like, I remember, I remember Waldron. I know he talked to you too while

eating an apple, but like Waldron, Michael Waldron's in season one talking about how. They had just all these, like, timeline questions and schematics and whatever, like, pasted all over their writer's room because they were constantly a feared of, you know, constructing a time travel plot that made no sense or, you know, a time-based plot that made no sense. And so, to your point, I really feel like the questions you hear characters asking this have to be questions people were asking in the writer's room. and it makes me so happy because there's so many times we were watching something, let's say, like most recently, we, when watching the Asoka finale, had some questions. I'm like, why couldn't someone like me be in the writer's room to be like, hey, what, does this make sense? Or what about this? Or why is this happening this way?

So it feels like that voice is in this writer's room. And then on Eric Martin's bona fides, we should say that, like, the timeline of Waldron working on season one is that he, like, writes season one, COVID happens. As we talked about our Loki Hall of Fame, Tom Middleton has to keep the Loki hair for a long time in COVID lockdown. There are some long delays. Waldron goes off and he starts speaking on Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness. Well, who is heading up the writer's side of everything while Waldron is away on Multiverse of Madness? It's Eric Martin. So Eric Martin was like sort of de facto lieutenant headwriter on season one. So he has plenty of, you know, sense of the character sense of the world that we're building here.

I don't feel like we've been just completely tossed over into some, you know, newcomers' hands. Definitely not. More maybe about, like, what is the desired emphasis and style of one of their seasons of TV versus the other, obviously, broadly. It's a very fluid evolution and transition. I think Waldron, if you asked him and maybe you did while he was eating an apple on your podcast, would look down the camera. Phoebe Waller Bridge style and say this is a love story, like, about Loki season one. Love is a dagger? TBD, if season two is a love story.

But I still feel like we're getting a lot of those same influences. Like, I have so many lost comparisons to get to, and like, loss is a huge touchstone for Waldron in season one. And so, like, that's something that is carried over and exists. But is before sunrise a comp for Eric Martin? TBD. Let's find out to go. Will we find our way onto a train at any point or into a listening booth in a record shop, Dare to Dream? That would be wonderful. Oh my gosh. I fucking love that movie. Yeah. The second one's my favorite though. The second one is it for me. I find them all

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scene by scene, beat by beat. It's time to dive deep into the microphone, Hunter. We are doing this by the book and on the record. Lingering, Gong. Yeah. You've outdone yourself, Almond. You've outdone yourself. Lingering gong.

Sign it with your pickle. Bad, baby. Oh, no. Okay. Welcome back to the TV. Joe, as you noted, we pick up right or season one concluded. We are zoomed in on the face of the he who remains statute that the statue is in a different place in that central hub, interestingly. Loki is fleeing.

Our guy is sprinting. He hurt the pod. He wants you to know what his 40-yard dash time is, and he is prepared to show you on Disney Plus. Mere seconds, he said. It is mere seconds. Fleeing from Mobius and B-15 and the hunters who do not recognize him, who do not know him. And before we get the clarity that we're in the past, we get some action. We get an actiony opening here.

Yeah. He jumps over the railing. He lands in a flying mail cart, mail cart number four. I felt like he was prepared to join Anakin in Attack of the Clones. 100%. Hopping over the side of any building into a waiting speeder below. Wonderful stuff. We got a crash through the cheek, through the statue cheek, a little foretelling of a fracture in the impending King Dynasty, perhaps.

Port-Dense. Signs and Fort-Dence. Signs are the same thing. Schemes and blot, signs, and port-dense. Joe, we get a window crash. Yeah. We get a cracking of the TVA logo on the floor. which will soon become a helpful time marker.

How did this physical comedy slap sticky action opening grab you? I actually really liked it. The only shot that I would quibble with is like the camera pans away and it pans back and Loki is like loony tuning over the side of the railing into the mail cart. Once he's in the mail truck, it's... But maybe there's a variant of Loki somewhere who is a liny tune. So who knows? Everything can be a set up for a future plot point.

I have seen multiverse of madness. You're right. But that I was like on the third rewatch, I was like, well, that's a little silly. But the rest I really, really liked. I liked, you know, we're with Casey right away. Yeah. And I love a time marker. I love a clear marker in time.

So the crack in the logo, similar to Mobius writing skin in dust on the side of a monitor. It's just like gives us a little like something, a little something to hold on to as we hop, bop through time, you know? Yeah. Maybe if everybody at the TVA weren't so busy listening to their mindfulness tapes like Casey, they could have replaced that slab of marble sooner. But I'm glad they didn't. Did you enjoy the scuttle bottle all over the internet this week about how Casey is listening to? I don't think it's the same one. This was confusing.

I looked it up. I'm also like, this is a cassette tape, not a podcast. but maybe I looked it up. The words are different. So unless people are, okay, so to be clear, I didn't let you finish a sentence. Staying awake. Yeah. I didn't let you finish your sentence, which is that Casey is listening to a tape that's like talking about keeping his mind clear.

And some people thought it might be the same thing that Moon Knight was listening to to stay awake. And doing puzzles. Yeah. Unless it's the same voice and people are really good identifying the voice, the words are different. I literally weren't searched Moon Night's scripts to find these words and they're not there. Do you like the idea that podcasts could become cassette teams that Casey and others in the TVA are listening to? Like, what if somebody in the TVA is just crushing episodes of House of Are? Listen. On a walkman.

If Infinity Stone's listening to House of Who? Infinity stones can become paperweights than anything is possible. Beautiful. Loki time slips in front of, he's in front of a Casey who doesn't know him. Time slips in front of the Casey who does.

This is where he sees the crack on the floor and he's like, okay, I came from the past. What did this time slipping, which of course we've seen in the trailers, but you got to really, really, really appreciate the visual nature of this. What did this remind you of? Mobius will have some absolutely remarkable descriptions later in the episode.

What did this look like to you? What did it look like to you? It reminded me of... Ant Man? Somebody pulling taffy. Like somebody like trying to make saltwater taffy and like pulling... You ever seen somebody pulling taffy? Just that stretchy.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe like somebody whirling around pretzel dough to try to fold together. a pretzel. We are recording at the dinner hour once again, so it's possible I'm just hungry, but it was a very like evocative culinary rendering to me.

I mean, Tom Hiddleston is an entire snack by himself, but I did not. Hair is looking great. I know you'll have a whole dedicated segment later, but Tom's hair looking fantastic in the season two. Extra curly. Extra curly, you know.

Joe, this crack on the floor. Interesting starting point because, on the one hand, it's a mysterious opening note for the episode in the season because of our understanding of how time works at the TVA from season one. This will become something that Loki and OB and Mobius discuss in the episode. It's part of the thrust of the plot. But it's also a quick way, everything that happens here, to solve the mystery of the season one finale. Sylvie's choice did not actually erase Mobius and B-15. memory of and time with Loki.

He was in the past and then he will go into the present where they are there and know him and remember them. So I was happy with this. This felt like a better outcome to me than Mobius not actually remembering any of his time with Loki. How did you feel about this? I was thinking about this. We were thinking we talk about this concept often with the sequel trilogy in Star Wars

where it's like JJ lays a path. Ryan takes a right hand turn and then JJ takes a sharp. left-hand turn back to his original path. You can curve the path as much as you like in one direction. It's the jerking back that really gives me whiplash. So, like, I believe the intention of setting up the ending of season one was Loki has to figure out how to work with these people who don't know who he is. But perhaps in thinking about how to break season two, they were like, who wants to watch

Mobius and Loki not know each other when all we want is for them to be pals together? Let's just yada yada this. Let's change the way that time works in the TV. which I'm fine with because time works differently here. There was always some, there were always some secrets and weirdness going on in terms of, like, who left the rings on the table in Rvona's office. You know what I mean? There's always a sense of the past at the TVA, even despite what they said.

So I think it actually makes a lot more sense that time does flow in the TVA, even though they're out of space time, and even though they can, go to any place in time. I think it is important watching characters evolve that we have a passage of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There was a part of me that was like interested in the idea of watching Loki and Mobius bond again or rediscover their bond again because I think there's something this, it's like of a piece of bit with what we talk about with the variant appeal and like what can you learn about yourself from another version of yourself. If they found their way toward each other again, then it's immense something about. their relationship, but ultimately I do. I agree with you and I prefer this.

Like, let's pick up with the thing that we love. And it ultimately, like, it does fit naturally with a lot of the theorizing that we're inclined to do anyway and that the show really invites and supports. There are so many questions just because we learned something about the past and time slipping and everything in this episode. It doesn't mean we understand perfectly what's going on. Like, were the bus of He Who Remains Variant's Faces? always there behind the mural and we now know to prune the wall and look for them because of what

Loki has experienced. Were they not there? Like what was, what actually has changed and how much of it is that somebody's understanding has changed in a way that allows you to unlock it? It's probably going to be a little bit of both and we'll get to find out in real time with our characters. Yeah. I think it's less chaotic that Sylvie didn't like change everything that ever happened with stabbing him, but rather Loki Bob. How that singular focus. This will reshape a galaxy. I was thinking a lot of our girls, Sabine. We got to move forward.

We got to move forward. We got to put Sabine in the review. But I think that, like, I think. Are you no longer on publicist duty? I'm on vacation, man. I kind of move on. I'll be back for season two. I'll be back on the clock.

Yeah, it's, it's, um, for time. Shenanagan's, which we get in this episode, for timelines, for time stories that we love, like seeing the future and being so certain because we've watched time travel shows or movies in the past, that we're going to be back in that elevator bay with Loki getting pruned and Sylvie again before the season's over. You know, like, that's, I love that. That's really fun to me. And you can't have that if time doesn't flow that way in the TVA, you know? So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hooprin Loki, who's calling, who's ringing the phone. Can't wait to talk about all of it. Exciting. Before we get there, before we get to that, again, kind of spooky march down the hallway toward the ringing phone. We're back with our Mobius, with our B-15 memories intact.

And they're discussing what to do as the timelines branch and branch and branch. Now what Mobius says, B-15 replies? Now the branches keep on growing and we tell the people of the TVA the truth about this place. Mobius says, and you think people are going to be ready to hear that? People have lives on the timeline, Mobius. I know. They should have the chance to live those lives. And then Mobius says, think about it.

Hey, everything you've been doing is wrong and all your gods are dead. How are people going to take that? And B15 says we have to give it a shot. I was fascinated by this, Joe, because Mobius seems to be in this respect. at least in a little bit of a different place with this than where he was at the end of season one. In episode five, season one, episode five, when he's leaving the void and heading back to the TVA,

burn it to the ground. Thanks for the spark. In episode six, that was to Loki and Sylvia, in episode six, he says to Rivona, I think people are ready to hear a little truth now. So why is he, even if it's only slightly more cautious or more reluctant to go forward with the burning it to the ground

than he was at the end of season one. Could it be that, especially in a conversation with B-15, we have to recall, of course, the distinction, the crucial distinction between the two of them, even though Mobius was much quicker to warm to Loki and these possibilities than B-15 was, she saw her life. She saw her life on the timeline.

Loki showed at her, and we got that beautiful, like, gutting, I was happy moment. I'm still a little annoyed that we didn't get to see that. I feel like we will, right? We have to. Yeah, I hope so. We have to.

But Mobius didn't get a moment like that via enchantment or via anything else. He hasn't gotten that direct connection to his prior life. Is that what you think is causing this difference? Is it something else? See you again in Theory Corner on that front. Ooh. A tease. I didn't know who's going to turn you into a ghost, but it is spooky season.

Here we are. But yeah, I mean, this gentle reset in his POV feels like ever so slightly like sloppy writing. But if it's not, and I have to figure out an in-universe reason for it, I guess the best I can do is that his confrontation with Ravona, who was his closest friend, question mark, slash someone he was like. Yeah. Yeah. Allies. Like someone that he maybe had a flirtation with. You know what I mean?

Like he was so close with her. Yeah. And then she literally like fucking threw him across a room, you know? And maybe that shook him a little. And maybe when, you know, the object of your affection slash your closest friend is just has that kind of reaction to the news? Maybe it makes you think twice. Interesting. Anyway, all your gods are dead is really important.

We're going to talk a bit about this idea of devils a little bit later when we talk about He Who Remains. But all your gods are dead. You got some Mephisto theories for Jomey? Lucifer only. Mephisto not invited. Mephisto, not yet invited back, but the X-Men will be coming up today. It's true. Is that Evan Peters's music I hear?

Oh, man. It was like literally, I mean, my first thought was, oh, my God, the X-Men or Cerebro. And then my second thought was, what about the Midnight Boys band on discussing the X-Men? What will we do? They don't tell us how to run our family. And I'll maybe consider not telling them how to run their family. Oh, God. Okay, Joe.

Yeah. I'm excited to hear more of your Mobius thoughts in theory, corner. You're a pro. What a, what a setup for a future segment. There's no one like you. You're a one of one. Casey walks over. A TVA guidebook in hand. The TVA guidebook will be a central presence in this episode of television. It tells them, well, he was just here, but then he vanished. She seems to be in quite a bit of pain. I am alarmed. Mobius tries to get help from Ms. Minas. She's not there. Also not the last time that Ms. Minutes' absence will come up in this episode. A lot of laying

the ground or what is to come. Somebody else enters. It's a new character and you as a Bay Area native and resident are overjoyed. Joanna, would you like to

welcome Hunter X-5 to the party? Oh my God, Raphael Cassell. I somehow missed that he was in this season. So I literally shrieked when I saw him. I was so excited. If you've never seen blind spotting the film he made with DeVee Diggs. I really, really recommend it. It's so good. And then he was also in the TV series that they made of that. But I mean,

he's just, I think he's phenomenal. And I think he's just right away, like, just giving great attitude to Mobius, flipping through the Jet Ski magazine, etc. He's just like, He's what a piece of shit. I love him immediately. This was quite an initial impression to make on the audience. The cuffed up sleeves with the forearm scars, you know, you know he's a hunter, but there's this like air of toughness. But then also this. But like, but like so silly.

So silly with how tough he is. And the way that his forearm scars match the scar on his breastplate, like he wants you to see. that time he was like, I got scratched. Someone really almost got me across the forearms and the chestplate. And his stupid little gloves with X5 on them. I mean, this guy is- Those I loved because you know I love merch. And I was like, here's a guy who loves merch. Okay. On the merch front, though, in all seriousness, I would kill for a TVA guide book that's actually just like a journal. Do you know what I mean? I have to imagine that they'll be for sale immediately. I want one. I mean. Right now. Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I'm usually like fairly agnostic on merch and one might almost say downright anti-merch, but I never turned out a journal ever once in my life. You know, I love a dope book and I love merch. It was also my first thought when I saw that. I was like, wait, can we get no posts?

Yeah, when do we get those? Great stuff. I thought that X-5's mocking stretch with the Jetsky here picking up the magazine asking Mobius about the Jetsky, there's nothing Mobyos. more than talking about the jet ski. We got a delightful, like, this is the brand name, Kleenex comp, wonderful stuff. And then he said, Mobius, Mobius, I don't care. And in the most vintage Mobius voice imaginable,

Owen Wilson genuinely crestfallen said, then why'd you ask? And I was just like, we are back. That then why'd you ask for Mobius was my, we're back moment? And then what does he say when he's like, you know, the judge is wanting you or whatever? and he goes, wonder what that's about. I mean, just like the way he says it, I just, I'm,

I'm very, I'm very East Bay biased about Rafael Cassell, like hometown hero, but I'm just so thrilled he tells them, General Docs and Judge Gamble are waiting in the war room. Renslayer out of the picture. And so this new judge's council is there, and they all have to answer to this judge's council. So we get this little setup from X5 before we head off. And as they exit, Loki time slips back to the spot. I thought, Casey, I don't know exactly what normal, like, bodily functions are on offer in the TVA. But I think Casey needs some new undergarments after this.

He was having an opening few minutes of this episode. I really want to say something, but I don't want it on microphone for all eternity. And I know Steve Steve will recognize it. We'll weaponize it. So I'll text it to you. Let's move on. Joe,

we are heading down with Mobius and B-15 some of the glossiest hallways that we have ever seen. These hallways, these are gorgeous. When we talk about the sets and what the show looks like

and feels like, obviously sometimes we mean the crackle of the time line against the in the vacuum of space. And sometimes we mean Obie's workshop. But sometimes it's moments like this where the simplest thing is elevated, like the most mundane area of your workplace feels so specific in particular to the world. Yeah. And I was really struck by that here in this little stroll down the glossy wood panel hall. I loved this. I just, I want to live in the TVA forever.

If you did, if you lived in the TVA forever, that would mean you were a variant. Would you then want to know about your life on the timeline? It's going to be relevant when we discuss this next scene here. You're your answer to that question. Because what if I was happy? I don't want to know.

Kausra Farahani is the name of the production designer on Loki, both season one and season two. Just iconic work. Top tier. Honestly incredible. Incredible. Top tier. B15 has some questions. about this new arrangement. So we're answering to the judges' counsel now. And this is

giving us that sense of trepitation, but also just the practical understanding of until we get to He Who Remains, until we get to Rivona Rensler, until some of these familiar looming figures return in a more central way to the story, these appear to be the oppositional forces. These are the antagonists inside of the TVA. We'll discuss as we break down this seen whether that was an effective choice at the beginning. I wonder if we disagree on this. I'm genuinely not sure. I've seen your notes, so I know we do. It's okay. The door's open to the war room and D90 emerges. He is here to apologize for pruning Mobius in season one. I would like to ask you if you prune somebody and then you were in the process of

apologizing. And that person said, give me like a sense of what awaits. What should I expect when I walk through those doors into the war room with the judge's counsel. In order to cement the validity of your apology, would you say anything in response? Would you tip them? Or would you just look into their faces and then walk away? Which is what D90 did. I don't know how much, well, listen, D90 comes back with a helpful tip later in the episode. So like, you know, still making an effort. But I guess you were just following orders. If someone said that to me, I would not take that as like amending of offense because like good soldiers follow orders very crosshair from bad batch i was going to say it's

very nuremberg trials like that's what it sounds like to me i don't know if that's letting anyone off the hook but yeah inside of this war room yeah an incredible visual setup here we have a mural of the timekeepers from season one those three figures covering the wall gorgeous this severed timekeeper Android head from the season one episode four sits in the middle of the table hysterical. I thought this was an absolutely hilarious touch, very tasteful. Would you put it like in a bowl or like a bag? I would turn it upside down and use the neck cavity as a like a vase, simple flowers in it. Yeah, yeah, tasteful.

Yeah. I like it. But artificial flowers so that it didn't impact my allergies. Well, obviously. Plus you can't put water into the neck hole. of a severed robot. Wait a minute. I'm rethinking this.

Let's use organic flowers. We'll figure out the water thing. And that'll be part of how we assess the passage of time in the TVA. Do the flowers will? Wow. Does no one have a... Has no one ever received the flower on their desk?

This is devastating. Oh, my God. What a bummer office. This is actually really sad. There's no ferns, like circulating air or anything? Oh, no. Oh, dismaying. Were you struck by,

I don't know which visual element grabbed you most in the scene. The thing that my eye was drawn to was the corners of the room. Those looming busts, these new faces, who are they? Figures. What are their roles in the story? When will we learn more? That really, really, really, really feels like rich, very, very, corner fodder for the system. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the most popular one is that at least one of them is Ravona, but we'll find out together. They're listening to the tape of Loki's You're All Variants. You're all just a pack of cards. Yeah. From season one. One of the judges is just sleeping,

just snoozing away at the table. I can. And I actually think, in addition to this being hilarious, this is a relevant canon detail, because we will learn later in the episode that Obie never sleeps. This is a nice reminder that people actually,

the variants of the TVA are capable of sleeping. And so the fact that Obie isn't sleeping is Horrific. Horrific. Call HR immediately. Terrible. Yeah. Judge Gamble, Joe,

begins the proceeding. Asking why they ordered the pruning of the branch timelines to cease. General Docs is in full Hu-Yang in Asoka mode. Jedi standard protocol. Speaking to the microphone,

we're doing this by the book on the record. I got such a chuckle out of Gamble saying make it make sense because it made me think the judge gamble is an MCU podcaster. Make it. Makes sense.

Breaking down phase four. Talking about secret invasion, make it make sense. When did the multiverse break open? Was it in the season one finale of our own show or another film entirely? B15 is trying to get them all to understand that they're variants. You had a life on the timeline and so did you. We linger on a couple faces here, Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Certainly not accidentally. We linger on X5 and we linger on G5. and we linger on Gamble, and they seem to be weighing and considering the implication of those words. Gamble, open-minded, more so than Docs,

cites D90s, Renslayer variant testimony, saw a Renslayer on the timeline as supporting evidence for what B-15 and Mobius are saying. And then we get what I thought was an incredibly confusing exchange in my least favorite scene of the episode.

I don't... Yeah. Tell me about your confusion. Okay. So the confusion is not in this next exchange, not why this was my least favorite scene of the episode. It's related, I guess, but ultimately a separate thing. I just thought this was like an odd beat. And part of a larger thing where I think maybe it's because it's so early in the episode,

I just want to, I want to see Loki and Mobius together again. I want to know what's up with Sylvie. I want to be back with our pals. And we have a really long scene with a bunch of people we don't know. and on the one hand, I think there's like something smart about that because the opportunity for parallels, right? If somebody like Judge Gamble, if that person's mind can change, then other minds can change too. And as we set up clearly one of the central focuses of the season, which is this division inside of the TVA, what will ongoing dissenter an ongoing effort to like maintain the dogma look like inside of the TVA,

even with Rensleyer gone, that is interesting. But because we don't know anything about who these people are. Like when Judge Gamble, I'll get back to the confusing part in a second, but like when Judge Gamble says, I can do anything, anything, tell the TVA to stop pruning effective immediately. I'm like, this is clearly supposed to be a moment that really lands and impacts us emotionally and feels significant, like a change of heart in a show about free will. Wow. But I'm just like, I don't know anything about this character. And so it felt like it would have been a more effective thing if it had been from a figure we had spent time with previously or somebody who we we learn anything about, rather than just a new figurehead for a certain archetype of

TVA adherent or TVA dissenter. That was broadly why the scene didn't work as well for me. The specific X-5 thing, I'm just like, when he's like, this changes everything about the head on the table. I know that X5 and Docs and Gamble are like talking about the pruning aspect, but it just felt kind of inverted and odd and backwards that the character who's on the side of maintaining the TVA order is telling Mobius, one of the characters who's there to kind of shake the foundation that everything has changed. That's just weird. So I just didn't think the scene worked in an episode that I otherwise really liked. I mean, I don't think that you like, I'm going to explain it to you the way that I see it, but like I don't doubt that you like have a basic understanding

what's going on. So if I'm over explaining, I apologize, but like, Mobius is saying the sky isn't fall like we haven't pruned anything. Yes, because they haven't pruned the timelines. Yeah. Okay, just let me say it and then and then we'll see if we're on the same page. All right. So Moby's is saying, the sky isn't falling because we haven't pruned any of the timelines, right? Which is not true because the whole thing, the whole place is shaking. And so X5 is like, sky is falling, dude. We got a severhead of a timekeeper. And I don't know if you notice what the lights are going on and off and weird shit's happening. And so we have to prune. So we have to prune in order to maintain calm. And without the timekeepers here to tell us what to do, we have to be the ones to make that decision.

Was sort of my assessment of what he's saying there. But what is changing then? Their job as hunters, definitionally, is to preen timelines. So that they can't ask for the timekeepers to give them advice. They have to make the decisions themselves. But they never had any interaction with the timekeepers. That's like established season-win-in-in-in-in. They definitely did.

No. Not the hunt, not X-5, but like the orders came down from the timekeepers. Yeah, they were just accepting orders from above. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Right. Now they're like, now they're like, uh-oh, there's no one there.

So we have to figure out what to do. And our whole institution is about to glass. Yeah. Because. But so how does this change everything? It's just, I just thought it's awkward. It changes everything in terms of like who makes the decision. I hear what you're saying.

I really do. It's just, I just thought it was awkward. It's like, I just didn't bump on it. This is his second scene. He's supposed to be introduced to us as one of the characters who is in a oppositional force to Mobius and B-15. And he goes from making fun and goading and summoning them to this intimidating situation to shouting, this changes everything to the guy who's there saying,

we're here to tell you that everything about your understanding has changed. It's just strange. I just thought I was like an inelegant second moment with a new character in a scene of new characters. I won't disagree about in elegance of the wording. I just think that what he means by everything is different from like what Mobius, T. Mobius is saying about everything. I get what he literally means about the pruning. But like it just was like, I'm like, this is kind of odd. Like what dynamic are we supposed to be understanding is at play here between the characters? I really like this guy. I mean, I know that I'm biased because I like the actor. But like I really

like this characterization of someone who is like quite chaotic in his nature. Like he's jeering and he's mocking, but he's also, as you mentioned, the camera lingers on him in this weird way when it's like, what about your other life? And then he's got that really weird moment with general dogs later. You know what I mean? So it's just like, so it's, this is, this guy is just like an odd fucking duck and like oddly emotional and prone to hysterics. That's what it seems like to me. This was like a beat of like that, hmm, that was sort of strange and weird and disorienting for me. More broadly, just the fact that the scene hinged on like I was saying, that big gamble moment and everything. I just didn't, I just didn't think it was particularly successful as like an introduction

to the new antagonist. Docs is like cardboard cut out. With docs, I think we're just on Kate Dickey, an actress we love who played Lysa Aaron in Game of Thrones and has played like someone severe in many different, the witch, et cetera, et cetera. This is what she does really well. That's shorthand because of the actor who's cast, right, and the freaking epaulettes on her costume. I think we know who she is. Again, I think I'm biased. Who will General Dots push through the moon door? Or try to?

Gamble, I think. Take over that room. Raphael is an actor. I'm just excited he's here. So I will admit my bias there. And then I was just like interested in every single acting choice he was making. I like X-5 broadly in the premiere. Just not the whole thing.

It's odd. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how well. Yeah. All right. Let's move on. I think we're not too far away from each other on this, I think. The moment that you alluded to with Lysa and X5 was sensational.

I can't wait to talk about it in a minute. But we're cutting in and out of time because while this is happening in the present, Loki is in the past in an empty version of this room. And Joanna, what does he discover? A tape is playing. So he starts in a tape is playing sort of mid-conversation. And then we get Ravona Renslayer. You are quite a marvel.

This is Kang talking, right? I'll be proud to lead with you. You made a difference in this war. Thank you for being on my team. And then for us, for all time, always, right? So we get the TVA logo. We get, this is such a juicy, tidbit of information. This is so loaded, right?

some comics context that we should bring in here is that Ravona Renslayer and Kang are ill-fated lovers, star-crossed, time-crossed lovers in the comics, right? That like Ravona is like this thing that he always wants and always loses, no matter like which, you know, version of Kang we're talking about here. And so their connection here, you're quite a marvel. like, feels like, and this is something we speculated all through season one because we knew of this comic's context and her name was just such a, you know, an alarm bell for us. So this idea that perhaps in the past, again, this is speculation corner, but perhaps in the past, it seems like Ravona and some Kang variant were united. Sounds to me like he who remains, right?

Were united. And it's in the subtitles for what it's worth. Oh, it doesn't say. He Who Remains. Okay, great. Made a difference of the war. Thank you for being on my team. So we talked about this mighty, you know, we've learned last season, season one about this war that He Who Remains comes out on top of? What role did Ravona play? Who did she betray?

I'm just going to ask, who did she betray? Because that's what it feels like to me. To make sure he landed on top. And then, even more importantly, what happened that he then felt the need to wipe her memory of? it because it seems very clear to me that she does not know that that was her history at the TVA based on everything we get from her in season one. And so, and she's off on her own, like, sort of fact-finding mission at the end of season one. So is this part of it? I think a great point that plenty of people made is that this tape stops after you hear of on a Redslayer, like that name.

So who was listening to it? Who was in the middle of listening to this? and stopped before Loki came into the room. Right. And like... Got a key piece of information and then bounced. Right. Yeah. Feels like I think Ravona herself probably was listening to this and was like,

what does this mean about my history with him, et cetera, et cetera? And I just think that like that there's so much opportunity here. We don't know how much any variant of Kang is in the show this season. We know, obviously, Victor timely, we know from trailers and posties. and credits and stuff like that, but like the opportunity for all this discussion between Loki and Sylvie at the end of season one was about like, will you betray me? Is your desire to rule more important than your desire to connect with me? Can I trust you?

All the sort of stuff like that. I think it would be a really interesting parallel to have a couple in He Who Remains in Ravona who are driven apart by that very betrayal. and to stand as a mirror of foil, a couple foil for Loki and Sylvie. And can Loki and Sylvie, even though we know that Loki wasn't trying to betray Sylvie, but can Loki and Sylvie connect in a way that, you know, allows them to succeed where this pair obviously failed? Because I would consider, I don't know if you, what you consider the definition of a failure of a relationship,

but I consider having my mind wiped at some point to erase memory of an existing of fundamental failure. So, yeah. Definitely something to work through in couples therapy. Yeah, I like the idea in general of parallels and mirrors across character sets, like not nearly as poignant as the one you're identifying there. But in that judges' counsel scene when B-15 and docs were talking about, like, we have to take a moment to understand. what's happening. We don't have a moment. It was hard to not feel the, the similarities there to the tension that Loki is, and he's bringing it up again and again to Mobius in this episode,

as he's recounting the rupture from the finale. Like, we just need more time, but the thing that is at stake is time. And so thus, there is no time. And like, if that kind of tension is present across a number of character sets, that's, like, really intriguing, too. I loved this tape recorder thing. And it's, you know, after, when Loki sees the wall, this is where he sees the five faces of, he who remains are Kang. And there's like the four on the sides that are angled, all appear to have some sort of Kang-esque helmet on, but the one in the, in the center does not. So like, are we looking at five different variants of Nathaniel Richards? Like, what exactly are we seeing there? And I think it's, to see that, the five faces right before we get this snippet of conversation between.

And I'll say it just because the subtitles say, Who Remains doesn't mean they're not going to later say that was Victor Timely or that was Kang Prime or anything else, right? Yeah. Because they're not probably going to tip that there. But how many Ravona's had relationships with how many Kang variants? that's like, like, we can find out that it's a number of different ones, right? I really hope it's not. There's potential for that. I really hope it's not.

I really, I prefer this idea that we're on a bunch, a bunch of loops that were all in our little loop to quote Westworld. And this idea that like, because when Miss Minutes sort of urges Ravona on her fact-finding mission at the end of season one, she gives her intel and she says he thinks this will be more useful happy reading, right? And we know the miscommunist is working for he who remains. So he who remains has given Ravona something that she thinks will be more useful, happy reading. And that whole conversation that he had with Loki and Sylvie at the end of season one where he said, I paved the road. Right? I paved the road to get you here.

It feels like whatever happens at the end of time, he needs it to happen to start the loop back over. again, right? So you don't believe when he's like, this is, we're past the threshold. I don't know what happens next. Because I guess regardless, he's positioning it as it doesn't matter. This is reincarnation for me. Yeah, see you soon.

See you soon. So if all of this, of all of that needs to happen in order to start the cycle over again. And if part of starting the cycle over again, I'm sorry, I just love time travel stories and this is just a complete theory corner. But like, if starting the cycle over again means he needs to send Ravona Ravona back in time to something, then this could just be, you know, Rvona Renslayer, you're a Marvel could be not necessarily our Rensselaer that we've met in the past, but it could be her future having traveled to the past.

That's what I like. I like the idea that it's our Ravona. Yeah. Because it could just be her actual past and this is a recording from her actual past. Or it could be our Ravona who has gone back on that examination as sparked by what Miss Minutes handed over and has made her way back to that point and thus has influenced the future and in that loop they're spinning. If anyone doesn't want to hear anything from a trailer, hit the fast forward 15 second button twice. We do see ample trailer footage of Rvona in the Victor timeline. Yes.

So does that mean it doesn't necessarily mean. mean that we're going to see Ravona's, many Ravona's with many gangs, but it does seem to tell us that we're going to see our Ravona, at least, with different, different Nathaniel Richards variants learning about this figure and the figures in the multiversal war, which is very exciting and interesting. You know, which which king she chooses to follow could wind up being the key to the war, and this is why he's like, good thing you're on my side. To your point about, like, is this what he wanted?

Is this what he needed? That's such a rich thing in this series, like, central examination of free will and determinism. Because, like, if a character who set out, so many of the conversations that she and Bobius have at the ender, like, she is nominally operating from a position of free will as a threat. But the thing that she is doing is inherently driven by her desire to understand her own circumstances, to understand the lie that she is. she's been operating inside of to exact some level of free will, right? And so if as a result of that, she ends up caught in the scheme that somebody else is causing it and sparking it, yeah, like that's like kind of classic. We love the anything that touches that sort of self-fulfilling prophecy aspect.

But it's just so entwined with the central focus thematically, like of that question at the heart of the show. So that would be, that would be great. I love that. Gamble's ruling. And Loki time slips right into the, the war room of the present. Reunites with the Mobius,

who knows him, it's lovely. And he wants to tell, he's trying to tell them who he found. So he turns to where the wall of faces should be. And he's like, I guess I'm not in Bravos, actually.

I'm not at the house of black and white. There is no wall of faces. Disaster. Wait, where are you? He disarms X-5. Brutal moment for a guy X-5. Quickly. Just mortifying.

Absolutely embarrassing. Mere seconds. Not even. Not even seconds. So brutal. And then he uses the time stick to prune the wall. That's who built this place. That's who stole your lives.

That's who's coming back. The time stick being able to prune any sort of matter, weren't me. I would keep fewer of these around. What was that mosaic made of? I have a question. Oh, you think it's just made of like little pieces of flesh? Maybe from the last person who wore the spacesuit with the cracked visor.

Yeah. A lot of talk about skin. Spaghettiation. Waste not whatnot, you know. Turn it into a mosaic. Yeah. Beautiful. It's lovely.

It's revolting. But we weren't talking about the wall of faces and brava. So it fits. It tracks. Speaking of Game of Thrones. This was, sometimes we're like, do they want us to be thinking of this? And this is one where there is absolutely zero doubt that, as Mobius

ushers Loki onto the hallway. Doc's cradles X5, their foreheads touch, and she puts her hand on the back of his neck. And we are like a frame away from Sweet Robin drinking his mother's breast milk. Suckling at the teeth of Lysayr. In the veil. There is no question. That's what they were trying to do here. None.

0%. And I just love what that tells us about both of them. X5, what a little weirdo. I love him. Do you think anybody will come up to X5 at some point, like Littlefinger did to Sweet Robin and say, I brought you a gift? Maybe X5 will show up. The sigil of your house.

Love your bailish impression. Great stuff. It'll change pot after pot just like Littlefingers accented. Maybe X-5 will show up in the serious finale of Loki, and if he weren't already hot, just, like, get surprisingly super hot and have people be like, who's that? Sweet Robin.

Do you think that X-5 has thoughts on whether brand should rule? I'm sorry. What's more important than story? And who has a better story? That brand, the broken. I'm going. to go now. Oh boy.

Joe Docs has a mission for her beautiful boy X-5 here. The timekeepers are fake, but their warnings were real. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Find out what happened in the end of time. Find Loki. Loki.

Sylvie. She's the reason we're in this mess. So that's the mission. That's the mission. Is that the mission? Well, is that why you need 200 canvas bags or whoever many they were plotting through a door. A lot of duffel bags. They're heavy packers, those hunters.

Heavy packers. Okay. Loki and Mobius, they're back together. Loki is catching Mobius up on everything that happened in the season one finale. He's very panicky. He's anxious. He is feeling the stakes keenly. And he wants to know who that was and what they want with Sylvie because Joe, he is

worried. It was so sweet to see this worry. It's not just worry. He's like still, it was mere minutes. Mere minutes. Since he had his heart broken. A kiss into a spin through a time door. Remember he just like sits there and cries. It's so sad at the end of season one. Absolutely are breaking. Re-watching season one as we did for our Hall of Fame episode, you know, I was struck anew again by his time prison sequence with Lady Siff. Yeah. Once you get past the joy of seeing Jamie Alexander, you know, his repeated punishment line from her is,

I hope you know you deserve to be alone and you always will be. And that's why when, like, he gets kicked out, kicked through the time door by Sylvie, separated from her, can't get back to her, and then rolls up on Mobius and Mobius doesn't know him, that it's just like, oh, no, he's alone again, right? And that's what so much of this episode is for me is, is it's, leave all the gobbledy good aside, leave all the like temporal timely whimey bullshit aside.

And it's just like one man trying to get back to his friend. So he's not alone in his quest to find the woman that he loves. And I'm just sort of like, I have no problem understanding. the emotional beats of this story. And so everything else just kind of falls away. Again, it does help to watch a lot of Doctor Who. To just, you just like, I start to hear buzzing when I hear like some of those terms. And I'm like, that's not important.

Honestly, it isn't. Like, I just need the gist. Okay, you got to wait out here a while. And your little, you know, diver suit might, you know, melt away to absolutely nothing. And all your skin might go away. But you go out there because your friend, you want to give your friend to, chance to survive. Like, I understand the stakes, so I don't need to know the details necessarily.

I don't know if that makes me an irresponsible deep diver, but here I am. I mean, I think that the show does a great job of establishing the rules of its universe or seeking to at least. And then when it's entwined with this, like, deeply intimate, personal human story and the stakes are the fate of time and all the timelines and the people who have lives on them and the way that we access that is through a couple people trying to make their way back to each other. It's just like, it's perfection.

Yeah. It's perfection. Seeing Mobius and Loki together again, with Sylvie so top of mind for Loki, this scene was like electric. This was perfection. And it could have felt stale or stagnant because a lot of what we're hearing from Loki

is in essence a recap of something we've already seen, but it was so alive with the heft of emotion and loss. Like that feeling that you're describing, I mean, some of it is Tom Hilsson's performance. Some of it is the writing. Some of it is the circumstance. It is devastating to watch him recount that and to watch him wrestle with the uncertainty that he still feels. Like he's saying he wishes that he had had more time.

He regrets the way things went. He doesn't, he hasn't changed his mind, though. And that's like a crucial thing. I love that Mobius is like, what about the giant cloud? Like what happened after the giant cloud? A distraction. A distraction. Very fair way to.

Richard E. Grant gave his life. I was like, why didn't anyone ask about alligator Loki? How hard would it have been for Mobius to say also what about the alligator who spent a lot of time in the little pool? Is there an update on Al? But alas, we'll have to wait. Not the child. No. I don't give a shit.

Kid Loki can eat shit. Kid Loki. He eats shit. Kid Loki can eat shit. I just want to know about alligator Loki who's probably eating hands as he, as is his want. Distraction, like you said. They found the man behind the cloud, he who remains, in the Citadel at the end of time. Loki explains this fracture, this division. It's our opening clip from today.

It's what we started the episode with. She was so certain. He just wanted time to think. We got to the man at the end of the end of. time and he made sense. That line, he made sense. This is a very important series of sentences from our guy, Loki. We thought it was about freeing the timeline, but that brings only more malevolence, more violence, more war, more of him later. You came to kill the devil. Maybe he was, but maybe he wasn't. She was convinced he was. Now, there are some moments of hope, like a little bit later,

he says, he said he keeps us safe, but how can you believe that? But some of what we're hearing here, on the one hand, unlike I think that Mobius, like, what changed question that posed earlier, Loki's in exactly the same spot that we left him at the end of season one. Like, this is very consistent with the exchanges that he and Sylvie had. Weren't you listening to what he was saying? That's the gambit. Remove the dictator and what fills the void.

Like, this was the division. I think what's fascinating for us as Loki fans to think about is, you know, is that. is how does this fit in the evolution and the arc that we have seen the character go on? Because it is impossible for us not to have the anxiety, like that little seed of fear inside of us, that while we have watched him change and grow and evolve and be transformed by meaningful relationships and introspection and connection, it's the character who stood there in Avengers and said,

you were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel. So we build from that to my choices or my own as like the central thrust of season one. Well, where is Loki with this now? This is like a core tension and conflict inside of him. He wants his choices to be his own. Does he always want that for other people too? Where does the free will go?

How many people get it? And I like that we're finding him here where it's not like he's drinking, he who remains is Kool-Aid, right? He's not like, I agree or siding with him. but he does think it's important to weigh the calculus of what he is sketching out to them, whereas Sylvie was like, I deserve to live my life, and everybody deserves to live their lives, and nobody should get to tell them how to do it,

which is the position we as viewers are, of course, more inclined to agree with. So as a person who has loved watching Loki go on this journey, Joe, yeah, a character on an arc, grow, learn, improve. Did this make you nervous? nervous is an interesting word to use there that's really interesting the loki has had so many monologues and speeches about freedom and choice right from the very beginning the the first of most quote the first of most oppressive lie ever uttered was the song of freedom for nearly every living thing choice breeds shame and uncertainty and regret there's a fork in every

road get the wrong path always taken so in terms of like what is changed for this loki the answer is clearly Sylvie, and the answer is, what does she want, and what does she value, what does she think is important? And how does this Loki, she's a Loki, if you want to call her that, we do, she doesn't, but how does this Loki who was ripped from her childhood and presented with a different life, how does that Loki inform our Loki on what ideas he had that were incorrect? And so I think it's um and also so it's it's what does sylvie want sylvie believes that that freedom that choice that free will belongs to everyone and then also what does he now realize is not as important as he thought it was power ruling right he's like i don't want i don't want power i just want you i just want you to be okay

right so his main priority has shifted and then he sees in someone else someone who he cares about and who he wants to make happy this other priority. You know what I mean? So, like, don't change your entire personality for the person that you love, but, like, you know, be willing, be open-minded to change.

So why would that make me nervous, do you think? I think that my choices are my own Loki thing was present in season one before he met Sylvie. Like, it was, the shift was that it was almost a willful refusal to accept that he wasn't in control, right? That whole, like, conjurebatic idea in the first couple episodes

into a more, like, honest and full embrace of what it would mean to be able to live that way. Because part of what has always made Loki such a compelling villain to us and then into an anti-hero into a hero, is that so many of the things he says about other people are actually just projections of insecurity about himself, right? But those first couple episodes before he meets Sylvie, he meets Sylvie at the end of episode two,

like, before he meets her. his scheme is oh, the TVA is more powerful than any other thing. I got to rule the TVA. Is this the greatest power in the universe? Yeah. So the reason I'm asking if it makes you nervous, and I'm not saying it should,

but if it does, is because if there is a single part of Loki that is weighing whether he who remains is right, and it's from a position of, like, protection, I agree, he wants to prevent we saw what this guy can do how terrifying. We have to prevent legions of this person

warring and tearing apart the galaxy. Of course. Reasonable to consider whether we should try to prevent a multiversal war. Makes sense. But the character who had come to embrace free will and choice and who looked on

in horror as he who remained sat there and said, I paved the road, shouldn't for a second actually consider whether that person is right to stitch together in the temporal loom, the sacred timeline, where everybody's choices are capped by other events. I hope that at no point he actually believes that he remains his mission is the right one. Because we have to rebel against that.

I see what you're saying. And I think, again, welcome back to Theory Corner. It's never ending in Loki. But I think my suspicion in a time travel show and a show where we've already probably seen like a future escapade with Loki and Sylvie in the TVA when we see Sylvie pry open the elevator doors. Great fingerwork. Like Harrison Ford level hand acting right there.

Incredible. Also, to note, very short unpolished fingernails. I really, they just scream practicality to me. They scream Mallory Rubin. No, they're shorter than yours. Hers don't go beyond her fingeys. Anyway, point being, now that we've seen the future. He keeps saying, I just need more time. Don't you feel like we're going to see that whole thing happen again?

But like with that time that he needs to figure out what to do? And if we're on some sort of causal loop, doesn't Loki need to figure out how to break that loop? And the answer isn't kill-l he who remains, because I really feel like that's what he who remains wants, it just recesses back on the path. So there has to be another way. And there's another way that could, I mean, I don't know the answer to this.

But is there another way that doesn't involve killing him, but also doesn't involve him being, like, right about everything? Do you know? Yeah. What I mean? Yeah. I hope that our guy continues to believe in the paramounts of free will and does not end up at any point actually saying, I think, he who remains is right. that's my hope. And I don't think he will.

I think he just needs to be thinking about it. Like there was no time to think and he just needs to think about it. He just needs to like trickster his way through another option. You know what I mean? Sylvie went one direction. Sylvie took, made a choice. And in many ways morally it was the right choice. But what are the ramifications?

And is there a different choice to be made that simultaneously ends he who remains rain and does not. cause the chaos that what she does. Loki taking the time to assess, I respect it. You know, he's like doing the prep. We thought it was about freeing the timeline, but that brings only more malevolence, more violence, more war is a little alarming. Bring the timeline is a good thing.

You might be right, but we thought it was about freeing the timeline, but that brings only more malevents, more violence, more war, more. But what if it's like we thought it was about freeing the timeline and we have to figure out a way to do that without bringing more malevolent? more violence, more violence, more war, more of him. That is my hope. Yeah. I want to shout out that you came to kill the devil.

Maybe he was sort of thing because there is this like, when you rewatch season one, this fun recurring motif, starting from Mobius in front of the stained glass window of Loki and Sylvie as devils, the horns, all of that, etc. And something we talked about in the Hall of Fame episode that I had such a good time doing with you is this idea of the history of gods of mischief across all global mythologies as being people who interrogate authority, you know, which is what the Lucifer figure is, right? The devil interrogates the authority of God and gets tossed out of heaven for his troubles. And so this idea of like, is King the devil or is are Sylvie and Loki the devil's trying to challenge God in a very his dark materials kind of way?

And if they are devils, are they the devils we need, right? The devils you want. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or is Mephisto? We're talking Paradise Lost. We're not talking Mephisto. He's not invited to the party. Sylvie with the one missing horn in our first meeting. Just wonderful, wonderful little touch. Wonderful. S sensational. Love Sylvie. Joe. Yeah. One of the great things about this entire stretch is that we get these really philosophically

recitalating questions about existence. And then we just get comedy. Comedy gold from Mobius and Loki. We fought Mobius. She kicked me through a time door. Well, I'd ask who won, but it was a draw. You gave each other from time door simultaneously? This killed me.

It was great. It was great. Wonderful. So funny. Also just absolute, like, classic Loki. He's like, it was a draw. Definitely wasn't the most painful moment of my entire life. It was a draw.

To be in dialogue with our beloved Charles Holmes over on the Midnight Boys Loki coverage. I cannot possibly in good conscious co-sign what Charles was saying about like Tom Hiddleston and Owen Wilson are movie stars and there aren't other movie stars that we're talking about the Disney Plus era when like Oscar Isaac is here, et cetera, et cetera. But that being said, Owen Wilson, like it just cannot be overstated what he brings to the table here. Just that sort of It doesn't every role But like that just laid back Sly genial Just is just affably

judging you Delightfulness We are so lucky That we got a second season In this show I love this show It's an absolute joy To watch Mobius on screen

This is one of my favorite performances In the history of the MCU Yeah And in terms of like A team Moby's my favorite duo. Yeah. They're my favorite duo.

I love them. I would watch them and some of the stuff they do in this episode, like going down to meet OB and everything. And the, like, like, Loki's just like, why won't you just admit that you don't remember this and like the knowing looks and the humor of his lean? It's just O.B. down here. It's just O.B. I would just watch like a workplace comedy with these two basically forever. I never tire of it. Speaking of Mobius not remembering, he doesn't understand why he can't remember. And Loki says he wiped your memories more than once.

And this is something that Mobius is struggling to accept throughout the episode. He's also struggling to accept what is happening with the time slipping because he says there is no past TVA. Time doesn't work like that here. One of the episodes where, or one of the moments where I thought the episode smartly acknowledged a question that it knew the audience would have. Yeah. I loved when when he witnesses the time slipping and Loki's like

what is it? How does it? How does it look? Lovius is like it looks I mean how does it feel? How does it feel? He's like wincing. This is so funny. He gets the warning to stay away from Miss Minutes there at the Citadel at the end of time. Bad news.

Okay, that means we need to go somewhere else for help, Joe. Hey y'all. We need to go into an even skinnier elevator than you've ever seen where we're going to have to press a button with our foot. Mm-hmm. I thought that this mechanic was really wise because Loki is hell-bent on figuring out what to do about he-whover means. But Mobia says, we have to deal with this first. We have to deal with the time slipping first. Then, in short order, it will be, we have to deal with the temporal loom and retrofitting the loom to account for

these branches. We've got clever, fun, compelling action, but explanations, justifications for why we are waiting. We're not right back with He Who Remains Yet.

We're getting that. Which was, to be clear, a frustration that a lot of the people who didn't like this episode or the critics who watched four episodes felt like they had where they felt like we were sort of running in place. And I'm just like, huh, I, to your

point, I could run in place with these two forever, so it doesn't bother me. If everything, this is like, it's not a total one to one, but it's a little bit of a piece with how we talk about, like, you actually need to be on the streets of San Francisco with Scott Lang.

It can't all just be Thanos. Like if it's all the timeline and the sacred timeline and he remains in the time more, like, It's just another version of your wonderful point you always make about the Shire, right? Like, we have to care about these people and the things that they're doing together. We have to meet Obie.

We have to see his workshop. We have to go into the world. We have to have the magazine with the Jetsky picture in our hands. There has to be the tangible thing. We have to think about General Docs being like, X-5, don't you think you should get a new unscrashed breastplate? And him being like, no, mom, it makes me look tough. X5, are you thirsty? Are you hungry? Cantesuckle?

All right. I enjoyed him saying that time slipping looked like Loki was being born or dying or both at the same time and then the pan to the witness of the elevator. Hysterical. Great stop. I love a wet pan.

Yeah. Repairs and advancement, Joe. Here we go. They're on theory corner as they're walking. which I enjoyed. Loki has a little theory that he's floating here. He's suggesting

that maybe he was able to go into the past because Sylvie sent him there with he who remains his temp pad. This is an intriguing possibility. So there's no past or present or future in the TVA unless you have this time pad.

This very particular. And yet O.B. It's like it's been 400 years since you've been down here. Time does flow. Like normal in the TVA. Everyone is absolutely bonkers to say otherwise. Nobody remembers it because they've had their memories wiped.

There we go. Joanna, the set design here and repairs an advancement. Discuss. Phenomenal. Just the details. I loved it. Just like. Great gumball machine.

Everywhere you look, something fun and exciting. Yeah. It was fantastic. Yeah. Did you enjoy the entrance? Lowering. in a little swing seat. I demand to know whose idea what that was.

I think it was phenomenal. He could have just popped up from behind the counter, but no, he lowered down. It reminds, like, the whole thing, you know, the story of this wonderful, freshly minted Oscar-winning actor is that he was famous for playing short-round Indiana Jones and Dada in Goonies. And this workshop feels like Data's trench coat from the Goonies,

exploded. And he's just living his best day to life down in the basement of the TVA. And I just love this for him. Yeah. Incredible. Great use of color, too. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful with like Florian Forsky's ice cream parlor. The music? The score as Obie is lowering here. This was kind of eerie. I saw this. You wrote this in the notes and I went back and watched it to listen to that. And I was just sort of like, yeah, I can see it. I can see it. I don't. I don't. I don't, I can't, I'm so ready to theorize everything about everyone, everywhere, all at once, honestly. I cannot live in a world where Obie is evil. I know. I know.

I know. I know. I know. Where he's one of the founding members of the TVA and doesn't know it. That's what I think. That's what I think. Like all of the stuff about, I mean, just all the stuff about the passage of time and the role, but like the reveal. that Obie wrote the TVA guidebook?

It's like, well, what if O.B. We're responsible for actually coming up with some of these policies and this institution and not just chronicling it and just doesn't know that. What if O.B. is one of those busts in the corner of the war room and doesn't have any recollection. Ravona and O.B. like if you asked me to name two of the busts, I would say Ravona and O.B. Do you think that Ms. Minutes is an AI version of the TVA guidebook that O.B. wrote?

I'm being completely serious. Do you think Ms. Minutes is somehow a corporeal yet non-corporial cartoon version of Ravona Rensselaer? Interesting. Interesting. And then Ravona's interacting with herself and doesn't know it. it's just another version of a variant interaction. Like Ms. Minutes knows it, but she doesn't know it. Sheesh. I would like it better if the accent work weren't so different.

Yeah. But because, you know, last season, Jonathan Majors voiced all of the timekeepers. So it's just sort of like, I don't know. Anyway. But Darry's strongest Miss Minutes, yeah. Interesting. Joanna, can we talk about Obie's name?

Yeah. Oroboros. A snake eating its own tail. Take us there. Yeah, symbolism corner, but also mythology corner. We've got a lot here. If you've read or seen the never-running story, you know that on the cover of the book of the never-running story,

there's something called the Orin, which is two snakes eating their tail. Now imagine that, but just take one snake out of the equation. You just have one snake eating its own tail, oroboros. And it's this idea that, like, the beginning is at the end. And so we're talking about these causal loops in time travel storytelling. I mean, we should say, docs is sure for paradox, oraboros. these are names from the TVA and the comic books. Like, this is just them coming up with, like, weird, fun, timey-wimey names to name their TVA characters.

But I think that idea of Ouroboros, as it informs the looping nature of everyone feels like they're on a loop here. And we saw the end of all time, but the beginning of going back. Stabbing, he remains, takes us. back to the beginning of the loop. Right. Yeah. And the idea of like eternity and rebirth. Yeah.

And these restarts and resets. Mm-hmm. Very present there. Also like, you know, Mobius, Mobius strip, like these names are evoking something about, like the circular nature of life. And then there's that added, that added deliciousness of Norse mythology, the Midgard Serpint encircling the world, bringing about Ragnarok. Well, that's alarming.

But then like a child of Loki. So a connection there directly to Loki. That's interesting. Midgard Serpent, Ragnarok Thai, concerning, especially when paired with the music. But who knows? I am also not prepared to accept any outcome where Obie is a bad guy, but Obi maybe not knowing.

I could see Obie picking the institution. I mean, we saw him doing this episode. Pick the institution over... the people. He's content to operate by himself downtown, downstairs in the basement for 400 years by himself. Loves being part of a team, though. So maybe that's part of the origin. And the evolution that we're going to watch is like, I've changed my mind because I was, and we're seeing it already. Like the number of times that Obie counted three didn't want to hit that button. He did it, but did not want to hit that button. I rewounded a bunch of times because I actually think

you know how like Tom has a little tear on his face when he sees Sylvie. I think OB has a little tear on his face when he's closing the blast door. It's either that or it's a skin imperfection. If it is, I apologize. But I rewatched it like a number of times. I think he has like a little tear. Or maybe it's a dropout of sweat. It's a very stressful scenario. It is stressful. We, we, we, the stress builds and compounds quickly here. We start with this very charming, sweet introduction where we get the little nickname reveal. This is the little Loki, like, why the fuck won't you just admit Mobius that you don't remember anything that's going on

and your memory was clearly wiped? The devastation, the charm, paired with a devastation of realizing that he's had no visitors for all this time that Mobius was his last visitor, and Mobius doesn't even remember, that he doesn't sleep, that he never ceases working. The work orders are coming in and he has to heed them immediately.

This was just all so sad. And then we go into this absolutely brilliantly structured scene where we're watching as the conversation Loki time slips into the past Obie's there, no glasses, visual marker.

The conversation between Loki and Obie in the past is registering with the OB who was talking to Mobius in the present. I thought this was brilliant. I loved this scene. Steve, can we hear a piece of this? I know it looked like your friend was time slipping. But it must have been something else because I've never seen anything close to that happen before. Wait.

No. There was one time. That guy that was here, what was his name? Boki? Yeah. A long time ago, he came to me complaining about time slipping. How did I now remember that? Wait, is he talking to you in the past and you're just now remembering it?

Wow. That makes perfect sense. There's no flaw in that logic. Yeah. Just absolutely incredible the way that Mobius says, yeah at the end. There's no flaw in the logic. Joe, when I was watching this,

yes, for the first time. I, in real time, my brow started to furrow. And I was like, shouldn't the OB and the present know about the interaction that he had with the Loki in the past?

And then that happened. And I was like, this is why the show is the best. Like, they're ambitious in their pursuits, but they're also really attuned to audience curiosity, right, and audience questions and how to account for that. Yeah. So there's this embrace of the time lore, the temporal laurra extractor, the skin conversation, which was hysterical,

the spaghettification conversation, which was hysterical, the editing back and forth, the embrace of all of that. But they're pairing that again in a really enriching way with the emotional impact of like seeing that Loki and Mobius trust that the other person will be figuring this out at the same time, right? Like Loki's saying, great, can you hold on to this? Then my friend Mobius dropped by is no doubt that Mobius will be ready for that in real time. And Mobius saying, did you happen to discuss how to use such a thing with my friend?

Like, lore and mythology-wise, relationship-wise, structure and editing and pacing-wise, this was just like an incredible scene. I loved this. This is where my only knit to pick belongs. Incredible. I loved this. It helps establish the kind of time travel we're talking about. We already experienced it with a breaking of the seal on the floor.

You can change the present in the past. And that wasn't necessarily, that's not always the case in a time travel story. But if you want to complicate things for yourself, you can make it so. And so, you know, there are plenty of comps you can think of when you see OBB. in real time form new memories. It happens with them. In Arrival,

when Amy Adams' character, we got an email about this from a couple people, but I'll shout out our listener, Alex, for a great email about this. But in arrival, when Amy Adams' character,

fast forward, if you don't want to hear spoilers about arrival, needs to figure out what to say on a phone call and has to, like, use the time consciousness and gaps in order to figure out what to do there.

I also love the Bill and Ted comp where Bill and Ted have to need keys. And so they just decide in the future that they're going to go back in time and hide the keys that they need. And so then it's just there. And they have to remember to do that in the future, but they haven't done it yet. But in real time, the keys show up where they need the keys to be, et cetera. So that kind of storytelling. All of that makes sense to me. And I like.

But here's where we get. And we've been talking a lot about causal loop, which is my number one favorite time travel phrase, causal loop. Number two, bootstrap paradox. Do you know where the bootstrap paradox is in this exchange? Tell me. Loki goes back in time and he says, can I call you OB? And he goes, oh, I like that. But his nickname was already OB.

So where did that nickname come? And that's something that Loki learned in the future. So bootstrap paradox style, where does the nickname OB come from? But that's why it's a bootstrap paradox. But I'm just saying it's a bootstrap paradox. Everything else is working on a different kind of time travel logic. And this is the only bootstrap paradox. Who initially introduced the idea of OB to the world?

So when they first asked OB about time. slipping. It says, wow, time slipping. Wait, time slip. You know that? Yeah, you've seen that. Yeah. Can you fix that?

No, it's impossible of time slip in the TVA. I know, but we just saw it happen. Yeah, I'm having trouble reconciling that. I guess maybe it's just, maybe he has, Loki has time slipped into the past, so maybe that's, we just haven't cut to that scene yet. So maybe that's the explanation for it.

But does he make me wonder if he had actually encountered that in another, being before or if that is that moment with Loki. I love a bootstrap paradox. The end is the beginning and the beginning is the end. I like watch dark. I like a bootstop paradox as well. The only reason I bumped on it slightly is that we were working so hard to create another sort of kind of cause and effect new memories forming time travel relationship.

Do you know? And so to tuck a little one. tiny little bootstrap paradox in there just made me like... Well, I guess you... I guess the answer would be Loki is in the past. So the OB in the present knows all that and has

since that moment in the past. But not when Loki first meets him and he says he calls me OB. But it's like coming back into... He's gaining awareness of it. No, I don't... I mean... I thought the way the scene is... I thought the way the Shadimishat is that he hasn't experienced that yet because Loki hasn't traveled back to him yet. But then Loki does.

And then the new memories start forming. But I think the answer to your question about accounting for the paradox is that it is actually there. He just isn't gaining awareness of it. Like, okay, if we take the extractor, the temporal or extractor, it doesn't like materialize in front of us. It's there. He just didn't know to look for it. But it's not that. No, I disagree.

I don't think that's what we're watching because it's not that the seal was always cracked. It's that Loki cracked the seal when he landed there. We're saying the same thing. I agree with you. We're saying the same thing. Loki has to go cause this. He has to go do the thing. But I don't think the answer is Loki always did that as it is in some time travel stories.

In some time travel stories. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that when Loki goes to do it, it has been done. the thing is there, the machine is there then, right? Yeah, but it's not like we're like a moment where it materializes in front of us. The OB thing, well, it does because it's like behind the counter somewhere. You know what it's to look for it.

I don't think it's there when they first walk in. It might not be. I don't think it's there until Loki goes back in time and watches him build it. And then it's there. Yes. Okay. So when they walk in. As soon as he built it in the past, it was there.

Yeah. And then it's sitting there. Like the OB in the past then lives the future. And that machine will be there next to him that entire time. Yes. But not when they first walked in. Right. Exactly.

So with OB, they walk in and he's like, he calls me OB. Yes. So he's got this nickname OB. And then Loki goes back in time and says, OB. And he's like, acts like he's never heard that before. So that's the. inception of OB. But where did it start in the first place?

So he says Mobius gave him the nickname, not Loki. So what you're saying is there was one timeline where Mobius is the first person to call him OB and then Loki goes back in time and calls MoB and now when next time on the timeline when Mobius calls him OB, he's going to be like, I met another guy who called me that once. Is that you saying? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Great. Let's move on.

Let's move on. That seems like the only way to, Des Gamble would say to make it make sense. I like the idea of Mobius just ripping off Loki's nickname and having no recollection that he's done it. I love this shit so much. That's great. It's the best.

I think also like one of the things that people, I know there's some like this isn't the same as like end game in terms of time travel rules. I'll just say that I don't... Time travel works differently inside the TVA. There's that, but more broadly, yeah. I don't think that the MCU

should be forever bound, especially in this new era of multiversal storytelling, by with love and respect with the Russo brothers and Marcus and Maffili, who can't even agree on whether Cap was Peggy's husband the whole time, like, set as the rules on their movie. A movie I love, but I don't think we should be forever bound by that. On the one hand, I'm so agree with you. You know I do. On the other hand, it forever bothers me because it forever like just pokes at me because it makes a difference. always says Steve Rogers made makes a difference. Anyway, we're not here to re-litigate that. You know, I agree about that.

Oh, good stuff. Let's get a little bit of comedy in our lives. We're talking about timey-wimey stuff. Everybody's heads hurt. Steve, can we hear just an absolutely classic exchange from when Loki time slips back into the present and they discuss who has the worst job? Well, I guess you two are ready to go.

I wouldn't hold it. I mean, am I ready to get my skin peeled off? Yeah, am I ready to have? violently ripped myself from every thread of time it's gross. You'd rather be atomically disassembled than never reassembled again. Then you have your skin ripped off? At least you get to live.

Live. What's the quality of life with no skin? There has to be another way. So you want to play a game? Would you rather? Would you rather, would you rather be flayed alive or dissolve forever to be lost?

Play them living. To time. Flay them living. I think I'd rather be dissolved. Me too. I don't want, I don't want to be in the role where, like, you could have been a victim of the Bolton's. That's a no for me.

Genuinely, being flayed is like, and I hope it's not controversial. Bottom of my list of things I want to experience. Very low on mine as well. Very, very, very low on mine as well. It's the way to. It's simply a no for me. It's a no for us at House of Mar. Yeah.

It's a no. Steve, are you in agreement? or do you do you prefer to be flayed? Firm no on being flayed. Yeah. Disassembled. Autonomically disassemble us. Spaghetti.

We love spaghetti here at House of our. It's a pro-spaghetti podcast. Spaghetti-us. Actually, if we're choosing, can I be Fusili'd instead of Spaghettiated? As you know, my favorite New Yorker cartoon of all time is Fisili, you crazy bastard. How are you? Kills me.

I didn't. I did not know that. I'm delighted to learn that about you. I'm a favorite. It's a fix of the phone. It's such a bit silly, Chris, bastard. How are you? So, yeah, Fusilius. Great stuff.

God, I love Fusili. Delicious. Wonderful. Wonderful stuff. Did you like the, in response to there has to be another way? and OB just holds out the time stick. I was like waiting for him to just actually channel the armorer and say this is the way. But no, we didn't get the crossover content that we deserved in the Disney Plus universe.

Sad. Oh, well. To the temporal loom we go. Let's go. The lamp flickers. Obie learns that there have been power searches at the TVA happening constantly, and he's alarmed. He's a branching timelines. Fucked up about this.

Yeah. Are causing these surges, these time slips. he is leaving the workshop, Joe. He is marching toward an X-Men Easter egg. He is marching toward the temporal loom. Mobius has summoned P-15. She's like, oh, I've got a lot of shit going on. This better be important.

That was so funny. The way that Mobius was holding the temporal aura extractor and marching down the hallway, this is- That got you. What got me and I rewound it multiple times was Obie tossing the book behind his shoulder and Loki grabbing it. I'm like how many takes, Tom? How many takes?

I feel like this is a one take, a one take thing. You are, you, Faith and Tom. Oh, yeah. We're going to talk with his physicality in this episode later though. All right. Okay, OB. This piece just came off right here.

Is that important? It's so funny. Oh, boy, Joe, that guidebook. Yeah. It has a lot of crucial information about the temporal loom. Do you think that it includes any doctor who, who quotes or comparisons inside of the TVA guidebook explaining the temporal loom.

Well, if it did, it would be blue. It would be like a blue little TARDIS journal instead of the orange. We already floated some OB theories that he might be one of those giant busts in the conference room, who's, you know, goals, hashtag goals. We got an email from our listener, Grace. This will not be the last time Harry Potter is invoked in the podcast. She says, it doesn't seem that OB has had his mind wiped as often as the others, and he has already proven very knowledgeable and useful. What are the chances that this will be a creature-esque creature from Harry Potter, spelled K-R-E-A-C-H-E-R-E-Sk?

The house elf of House Black? Yeah. I just realized it sounded like creature, and I just wanted to make sure that people heard the capital K. Okay, creature-esque type situation of the forgotten hero. Not to compare the sweet OB to creature, but what if during his mind-wiping sweeps of the TVA in his arrogance and old age, he who remains forgot about OB, down in repairs and advancement. And in turn, OB has retained some crucial knowledge. and how to fix the TVA

or how to defeat he who remains in some way. Either that or he's a sleep agent for he who remains L.O.L. So, you know. But yeah, it does seem like OB has instituted... So who's Regalus Black then

in this scenario? Ramona. Could be. That Mobeus has definitely... I mean, it feels like Mobius has had his mind wiped more recently than Obie has. And Obie just being shoved down there

with all this lots of Majetum and having literally written the book. Though you would think that he who remains would not forget about the person who literally wrote the book on the TVA. But anyway, I just like this idea that Obie has not just the knowledge that Loki implants there from traveling back in time, but some other knowledge that might be helpful in the long run that these, I mean, it's a wonder these freaking time ages could do anything given how often their minds have barely been wiped, you know? God, it's like worse than C3PO.

blitz through rain blitz after blank blank brain blitz Did you shout out loud Cerebro when we walked toward these hulking doors that without question are there

to invoke X-Men? I wish that I had been recording my beloved and husband Adams' response to this because he freaked out I didn't shout it. I played some air guitar and it just went like

benal-de-le-le-le-me-me- Adam just shouted X-Men. That's hilarious. Yeah, he shouted X-Men and then he shouted Cerebro and paused. And then, he said to the premiere and then came home and watched it. And then he paused and turned and his mouth was, jaw was like hanging open. Yeah, and then I said, sublime. This was, I mean, the X-Men door.

For fun, geez. You think it's just for fun? For shits and gigs. Yeah, I do. I do. Maybe the, who was the, if obious creature who's the regalus, it's, maybe it's Charles. We're not doing this. I refuse.

I refuse to engage. Okay, fine. We'll go inside. We'll leave those Easter egg saturated doors behind for a minute and head into this. Mallor's like, we're definitely getting Professor X in a post-credit sequence. I did not. I did not say that, nor will I say that, nor do I believe it, but it is fun to think about. Yeah.

Raw time is refined into physical timeline here in the temporal loom, Joanna. Unfortunately, the loom cannot handle this many branches. Also, we learned something interesting, which is Obie doesn't get down here because Ms. Minutes usually tends to the loom. But again, Miss Minutes, not around. The visuals of this were incredible. You're looking out we're about to go out into this. crackling silly string abyss of the timeline. But we're just like in an office.

We're just in a computer bay. The contrast, incredible. Misminister took care of everything. I just ran diagnostics every few hundred years. Um, minutes. Yeah. Also the threads, like the idea of a loom.

We've been talking a lot on our. You want to talk about wanted? You want to talk about threads of, you want to talk about the great film wanted? Are you wanted it? The loom of fate? I thought we're going to talk about Dr. Who for a minute. I'm sorry, you were talking about Charles.

I thought about James McAvoy, and then I thought about... It's reasonable. The loom of fate. Let's talk about Dr. Who. In Doctor Who, there is this thing... I mean, why aren't you listening to our Doctor Who podcast? But let's say you're not. In Doctor Who, there is a time machine called the Tartis.

Time and relative dimensions in space is the acronym for the Tartis. Mallory is pointing at her little... TARDIS model that her lovely husband got for her. Did I tell you that I discovered that it's a piggy bank? No. Incredible. Who uses coins? Okay.

Actually, I use coins all the time. I don't know why it's on that. Okay, so anyway, the Tartis. Yes. The heart of the Tartis, the core, the pulsating core of the Tartis is this very important, timey-wimey thing that crops up in Doctor Who stories from time to time, it looks very similar to this loom, this time loom that we're talking about, except the time loom is horizontal. Part of the Tartis is vertical.

But there's just a ton of Doctor Who stuff that obviously Loki is interacting with. If you go back to season one when Sylvie and Loki steal the time pad, it's very much like the doctor stealing the Tartis and running away from, you know, the Time Lords in Doctor Who. Shout out Pompeii. The Time Lords as, you know, comps for the timekeepers of the TVA, a time war as being this sort of big calamitous event at the center of the story. And then, like, Sylvie basically says time and relative dimension in space, like, almost word for word in season one. So it's just like, my question to you is you have seen Doctor Who, not all of it.

we're still going to watch some Capaldian Whitaker, but you've seen Doctor Who since watching season one and then rewatching season one for our prep earlier this week. What were you struck by, speaking of Pompeii? What were you struck by in terms of like Doctor Who-esque elements or parallels between? I mean, some of it is so direct, like both shows going back to Pompeii, for example, that it's really fun to see, like, actual, oh, well, if we need to go. to like a fixed, assess the idea of whether I can change an outcome or like, what is this a fix point in time?

Yeah, yeah. Such scale that we could test this theory. That was really fun. I think in general, one of the things that I loved about season one of Loki is that it was clearly so in touch with sci-fi, time travel, storytelling in general, and like just storytelling in general. You know, you invoked before Sunrise earlier, and it was always. really interesting, whether it was in your beautiful Vanity Fairpiece or some of, you know,

the other chats and interviews with Waldron to hear about the number from Mad Men to some of the most hardcore fantasy and sci-fi. Yeah, like the number of genres that are touchpoints for the first season and influences. Like, that was one of my favorite things about it. And I feel like, you know, as we've chatted about it in our Dr. Who pods, one of the, one of the great things for me is like I've, before I saw Doctor Who I understood that it had this influence on things. But like to get to understand them more tangibly and concretely has been really fun. So I don't know like how many people who make Loki have watched and loved and obsessed over Doctor Who and who their doctors are.

But it feels like there is an awareness of Doctor Who's impact on time travel canon. And it's been really fun. The heart of the TARDIS, the temporal loom thing was like just delightful. I mean, I think if you're, I think, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to say it. I think if you're going to make a time travel story, especially like a show, a TV show that's going to be like a long running time me, me, why me sort of thing. And you don't watch some of Doctor Who and you don't watch some of Back to the Future, then I just don't think you're doing your job. And I believe they did their job. Love Back to the Future.

What did Marty McFly say when Dr. franchise for sneakerheads. Was in trouble. I just need more time. Wait, I've got a time machine. Don't focus on the coulda what or should us. They can't print. Obie's suggestion is, well, let's print.

We can't. P15 explains why. Obie's like, all right, then we're going to have to close the blast doors. We need to make sure that we can stay alive. You got to retrofit the loom. You know, you know when you have to retrofit the loom. You got to retrofit the loom. You got to retrofit the loom to retrofit the loom to

must be a Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our guy is a problem solver and I love it. Yeah. The entwining, not only of the threads of fade in the loom, but of the Loki, urgent matter of the premiere with the larger time urgent matter of the premiere was really definitely handled here too because they have to fix Loki's time slipping before the blast.

are closed. So there's like a sequencing that they account for here, which was wonderful. Taking clock, plat. They do solve this with Loki, as we'll discuss in a second. Going to talk about the trailer for a second once more. Hit the fast forward button twice

if you don't want to hear this. We see Loki time slipping in the trailer in a number of scenes that we do not see in this first episode. So does that mean that the solution isn't permanent or something else. Like we see Loki time slipping into like a car dealership

you know one of those swinging arm wavy wind thingies. The theory that I've seen going around, yeah swingy arm and wavy wind thingies. And the theory that I've seen floating around is that he is going to have to learn to harness it and control it. Yeah. So that he can skip through time in a way that

Rassel does not cause him monumental pain but secondly like that still seems painful. That this could become an asset rather than a problem. Got to pop over to Spider-Verse. Get one of those fancy watches. Yeah, a goober.

Get yourself a goober, you know? Oh, good old goober. My favorite sequence of the episode comes in this stretch, the skin stretch. We've mentioned the skin thing many times, but it's not just... Sign it with your pickle. It's not a skin stretch. It's not just that we look over and see that Mobius has traced the word skin into the dust of this monitor. It's like that we keep cutting back to him.

He's going to the closed eye, thumbs up. His OP is explaining the steps of this plan and everything could go wrong. I want that as a gift. I want that as a gift. I want that as a gift the next time someone's like, hey, can you podcast about this at the last second? I'm just going to like send the closed eyes. Thumbs up. I'm going to do it.

I thought this was unbelievable. Just the absolute embodiment of begrudging for reluctant for disavation. This was so incredible. This is when your guy D90 shows up. My guy? Excuse you. His docs are grating the armory, Joe. Excuse you.

Sylvie and Mobius is like, we have some pressing shit to deal with. I will accept that douchebag X5 is my guy, but not D90. No, no. Okay. Fair. B-15 is on it. allowing Loki and Mobius to stay here and cherry. B-15, no, B-15's like, don't worry, I'll take care of it.

Yeah. Does that mean just standing there, Slack John, while they walk past you later? Okay. Someone has to take notes on what's going on? I love you, B-15, but this is not taking care of it as far as I'm concerned. Loki's saying goodbye, Joe. He, and not in the say goodbye way. He sent to Thor and Dark Girl.

great movie that we have to mention on every single five. We haven't said I'll be a little bit loud yet, but we have gotten a dark world mention in. We did our first book promo event tonight, and I hope you're proud that I said the words Maliki, the Dark Elf, during the first book event for my book that I wrote about the MCU. Oh, my God. What a wonderful thing to know. I love this. Yeah.

Mobius is insistent. You'll make it back. And then Loki, time slips away. He drops the time stick. So again, we have an urgent imperative. He must find one. We need to shout out my absolute drama king of all time. Loki of Asgard.

Because when he grabs the time stick, when Obie's like, you have to do it now. And he's like, and he grabs it. He's ready to do it. He's like, wait, or not now. But he just like chest out, like thrust it against his chest. Like, I'm ready. I'll do it. And I'm just like, my guy.

He understands, you know. Making a memory, making a moment, you know. Loves the theater. Absolutely. He would have been great. Loki would be great at the art of the flop. Oh, yeah. He could be a Premier League player.

Guess what? For sure. Yeah. I know what that means. You interested that reference. I'm going to mispronounce it, but I did know it, but I'm going to mispronounce it. Zinidane Zadam is a French player who's known for the flop, correct? Is that right?

This is great. I love this. Have you been studying your World Cup history? I just watch the World Cup sometimes. This is great. I like the World Cup. Yeah. Who doesn't love the World Cup? I love getting up at 3 o'clock in the morning and going to a bar and watching soccer. I'm serious. I've done it.

Don't threaten me with a good time. Anyways, Zadine, he's a flopper, right? I didn't make that up. I mean, every soccer player is a flopper, but yes, non-controversial state. All right. Oh, gosh. I'll see you. Joe, it's time for the temporal aura extraction mission. we're cutting between the present and the future because Loki has wound up in the future

which we learned via the skin scroll that's how he knows sure skin scroll did you think about because you brought us back to the skin scroll did you think about the fact that dust is usually made of skin and like that he's just writing skin and particles of skin okay just making a check yeah and that says pieces of him flake away

all of his suit in the present how is this not yeah The constant. Is Mobius not Loki's constant? I love this. I'm speaking of the television series Lost.

Is that you, Penn? There is an iconic, one of the best. Again, if you are going to, and again, Waldron loves Lost, loves the constant. If you're going to talk about a time travel story, you're going to want to talk about the constant. And for those who I'm so sorry, if you haven't, haven't seen the constant,

It is about a man coming unstuck in time and flashing back and forth between the president and the past and needing to find one person to anchor him that was in both his president and his past, blah, blah, and that person is the low of his life, Penny. In this case, Loki's person is Mobius. And, you know, that makes O.B. Daniel Faraday. And here we are. Oh, delightful. It's the constant. It's wonderful. I mean, there's a ringing phone in this.

I know. In this stretch, which is just the most... You answered. Phobius, yes. Oh, I love that episode of television. Great television show. Love Lost. Wonderful. The Ringers number one episode of television of the 21st century.

I don't know. Why haven't people watched it? That's my question. Ah, God, I don't know. Lost is great. Never a bad time to start, resume, redo, a lost rewatch. One of the true. true pleasures that you can have.

More fun, certainly, than getting into this space suit, which looked like a bomb squad suit. I did get a real kick out of when he turns around and we see the giant, like vacuum hose attached to it. And also, of course, the TVA, it's just, they're just like us, use of duct tape to seal the crack in the visor. Get ready to see some hoofin. Huffin.

You've never seen before. Well, I'm glad that Mobius was able to find that motivation because OB, while I loved him and thought this was a sensational debut, no Eric Taylor. We need to work on the pregame pep talk here. And then your suit will age away, you will age away, and you'll get very old and all your skin will get peeled away and you will die is not clear eyes, full hearts can't lose. What happened here? I know Mobius needs the facts, but how about some confidence?

Do you think you just play devil down? Do you think if Mobius were acting out, OB would put him under a shower and turn it down to Strina? Oh. Another great television. TV, it's good. Joe, visually,

watching Mobius head out toward the loom. These little like puffs of temporal energy eating away at his suit and the sky. Like, holy hell. The loom, it's golden in the center, it's spinning into this tight, on the right of our screens.

And then on the left, it is just this unfurling, sprawling mess of chaos. I thought this was incredible. I loved later when Mobius was trying to make his way back, that wide shot where you see how far he has to go,

but also how far he is still from Loki, like the position, this fulcrum point that he's in. I thought that was great. I love the way Obie was watching him, the way he kept saying three. The way that Mobius, who didn't want to do this,

who doesn't want to lose his skin. It was very reluctant. It's just, he's not like, I can't wait to get back inside. More time. I can't wait to make sure I have to get more time. More time. No, not yet.

Not yet. Give him more time. He is just begging for the thing his friend needs. Incredible. In the future, the TVA is evacuating. TVA code 1127,

loom critical. Everyone's got to make their way to a time door. And then Loki sees the timer turn green. Mobius has done it, but he's on the clock and he doesn't have the time stick, Joe. Then he hears the phone ring.

I just sort of want, I need, speaking of hoffin, I need a little more hustle from Loki. Time's a wasted. He is moving at a leisurely clip, especially when he hears the phone ring. Yeah. I mean, he's like in a trance, basically. Yeah, and I was like, are you going to pick it up? What are we doing? We need to make some decisions.

Are we saving who do we think pruned Loki? Because this is where Sylvie prized open the elevator doors. We just get a little glimpse and it's, there you are. Are we saving who pruned Loki and who's on the phone for Therry Corn? Are we doing it here? I simply feel like there's only one answer to who pruned Loki. Loki. Yeah.

I mean, it could, I guess, be Sylvie or Bobius or... Harry Potter cast the Petronus. I knew I could do it because I'd already done it. I know, exactly. I could see him, I could see Loki being like, okay, now's the time. Now's the time when someone prunes me. And then he's like, oh, it's got to be me. I got to prune me.

It's definitely Loki. Who's on the phone? Who's calling? I don't know. Interesting. Who do you think it's really? Well, I guess if we're going with the constant comp, it should be Mobius. I hope it's Mobius.

What a nice bit of teamwork this would be. They're the ones trying to execute the plan and then Mobius calls to lure them to that point where Sylvie's there to give a message and a glimpse of Sylvie. And then Loki pops up with the prune. Actually, what would be hilarious? What if it's all Casey? I was about to say there are like, I don't think we've seen cell phones in this universe. But it would be really funny if both were Loki. He's like on one hand on the phone making the phone by the elevator.

Just the Thanos? Fine, I'll do it myself. Chabbing with the time stick in the other hand. But yeah, it has to be Loki. I will do something very drastic if it's, I'll think of the stakes. It could be, it could be Mobius. But whoever it is, I feel confident that they're doing it because they know he needs to be pruned in that moment. Yes, for sure. So you don't think it's Revona with a little face turn. You don't think

it's X5, B-15, OB. It could be B-15. She's very helpful when she's not standing slack-jawed watching Lace Air and march a bunch of bombs through a time door. So there you go. But, oh, this for Sylvie? I don't buy it. This is a conversation. This little, brief little Sylvie moment. Yeah, great stuff. There you are. There you are. And that's the other evidence. for it's Loki because there you are is like I was wondering where you got off to not like yeah there you are I haven't seen you in eons it's like we're in the middle of a like I'm downstairs where'd you go yeah there you are you know yeah awfully dirty I'm waiting for you where the salt and pepper shakers are where you fucked up the salad last season where there you are

there you are yeah I loved it it's just like what you were saying earlier about the the time loop prison and that you know idea of loneliness like just the person who he misses and is longing for, popping up, and him for just a second thinking she's looking for me too. And like, where is that particular Sylvan time? We don't know. But what a wonderful little thing. The look on Loki's face here was just absolutely wrenching.

And then the printing works and he's attached to the tether and slingshots into Mobius. By the way, Mobius was not going to hoof his way back on time by himself. he needed that ricochet, you know? I don't want to know the 40 time for Romance on that. Grim. Mere minutes, honestly. Loki, the first thing he says is we need to find Sylvie.

Yeah. Right away. Right away. We already talked about what B15 observes above. And that takes us into the always enticing mid credits. And then a big credit stinger Joe. Yeah.

A time door opens out in a field. and Sylvie steps in to Brockton, Oklahoma, 1982 branched timeline. This is, of course, the site of the new Asgard that Thor rebuilds after

Ragnarok in the comics. In the comics canon, Loki gives a mortal Oklahoma named Sylvie Lushden powers there. So, you know, in the MCU, New Asgard is in Norway,

Sylvie. we have our Sylvie like it seems like maybe more of just like a little wink to that comics canon than yeah something where a place where something crucial will happen but who knows and then Sylvie walks into McDonald's

let's just hear this Steve how do I do this what would you like not squirrel not possum not rats something that's already dead and nothing with a face please well you can try our new chicken McNuggets and we have

Big Mac. I want to try everything. Okay. I thought this was an absolutely perfect couple minutes of television. Not just because the McDonald's that I ordered after inspired by the scene was delicious. But that shift from like hilarity to just anguish. yearning, real yearning tendrils, Joe. As Sylvia's looking at the couple

sitting and talking, the friends who are laughing together, like people living life, people making choices, people doing things together. This is the perfect reminder of what exactly, like of what Sylvie didn't have, what the TV had to be a proprietor of. Hunted in hiding since she was a child. What she has sought and why she made the decision

that she made at the end of season one. So what a perfect reminder for us at the beginning of season. I think inherently in the world there are a few phrases funnier than filet-o-fish. I just think it's inherently comedic. Yeah. I quite like the quarter-pounder, which you can try with or without cheese. Oh, wonderful stinger. Anything else, Joe?

We did it. Do you have any series? With only a few time squabbles along the way. You know, we're going to talk about time travel. of a lot season. We'll see what they do. Who the fuck knows? Can't wait to find out. Theory Corner, Joe. Are there other things you want to hit here? Yeah. All right, Steve. Don't do the good or what or shutta. We already talked about who per and Loki. We talked about who might be on the phone.

What else you got? Our listener Lauren wrote in with a visual aid for this one. I wanted to present the theory that the young manager Sylvie meets at McDonald's in 1982 is possibly Mobius. Fast forward ahead. Only only hit the forehead one time to avoid a trailer spoiler. In the trailer, we see Loki Times Slip to a Jet Ski dealership in 2018, assuming this is Mobius pre-TVA life and that he's around the age of Owen Wilson, that would put him in his teens during 1982. The actor has a bit of resemblance to Owen and his hair is styled in a way reminiscent

of Mobius' season one hairstyle. We can also see him beginning to grow a mustache. On top of that, his mannerisms, especially the way he puts his hands on his hips and smooth out his tie, are things we see Mobius do, constantly. And since it seems Sylvie ends up working there next week, him recruiting a Loki would be very unbrandt. I'm not sure I've ever loved a theory or email more. I agree. And then we get side-by-side photos of our McDonald's employee and Owen Wilson just with their hands on their hips. Hands on the hips, put the tie. Yeah. And the hip hand placement and the

I'm not sold. I think it's delightful. Now. This is incredible. Let's talk about accent work. Yeah. Our guy hears from Oklahoma. Oklahoma, Owen Wilson's from Dallas, Texas. Oklahoma is kissing cousins with Texas. It's right there.

But I don't want to be southern-ist. And I'm sure people from Texas and people from Oklahoma would say our accents are quite different. One of the greatest rivalries in the world. But, oh, is that true in the world of sports? Cool. Anyway. Oh, Red River? Oh, have you never enjoyed a Red River shootout?

I literally don't know what that is. Oh, okay. We're doing Red River. We're doing Red River. Is this like Berkeley versus Stanford? That's a rivalry I know about. Yes, but Texas Oklahoma, Longhart's shooters. Shooting people.

Anyway. The shootout of playing a ball. Yes, carry on. I like it. Go ahead. Continue. you. That's it. That's all. I'm into it there. I think this is great. I have, I'm really into this. I think this is incredible. Preseason, there was also really a popular theory that Kate Dickey, who plays Docs, who played Lice Aaron, was playing an older Sylvie. And I think that was just based on physical appearance alone. I could kind of see it. But I think what's fun about a time travel show and you know this from watching dark is that we could speculate.

late now about everyone being a younger or older version of someone, you know. They're not going to catch us, they're not going to catch us sleeping. Uh-uh. We've seen dark. Not even a terribly scarred visage. No. Can't hide from us. Man, this is a great theory.

I really like this. Any other theories that you want to hit other than all the ones we've already talked about today? Well, I think we did it. Okay. That was sensational. Easter eggs? That was your timey-wimiest one yet.

I love to see. Thank you. Very hooian. Something that's already dead and nothing with a face, Joe. What's your favorite Easter egg? I think it has to be whatever got your husband to be like, Ex-Men! Yeah.

Ex-Men! Absolutely. Brockston, Oklahoma is a really good one, too. It's tough for that not to be the winner, but the X-Men door, the Cerebrador. I mean, come on. It just has to be. I have been waiting all podcasts. for what I think will be

a Pantheon edition of WigWatch TM with Joanna Robinson. Do you wear wigs? First of all, first and foremost, there's three installments today. Number one, Sylvie, good God. They gave her a terrible, terrible wig.

Did it, did it pin, ping for you? Like, did it... I know that I'm the one who's, like, hypersensitive to this, but, like, were you like, what's up with that wig or where you're like, that looks fine. Yeah, it's the way it's sitting on her head.

Yeah. She's got golden arches. Well, it's all, I mean, it's all branding. It's all the branding play. Yeah. Yes. And I think, you know, we get obviously a glimpse of the different hair inside of the elevator sequence. But stepping out of the time door into the fields of Brockston, Oklahoma, as I even I,

it's, this is going to be. No wig scholar could send something off here. brief appearance in wig-watched TM with Joanna Rodgers and TM segment for Sylvie, because I'm pretty sure she does rock the fashion mullet for the rest of the show, though I don't know. Mobius. Owen Wilson has a wig this season. Yeah. This I've actually thought was really noticeable.

I mean, Sylvie's wig bothered me more for some reason. It's just that Mobius's hair looked different from season one, and there's no, absolutely no reason it should. So I was like, oh, weird. Yeah. Especially in profile where you're seeing like the, yeah. A little like bristle up. I guess Owen was like, I don't want to bleach my hair white again or whatever it is. He did for season one.

I don't know. Fascinating. Hmm. Number three, as we discussed on our Loki Hall of Fame podcast, this hair this season on Tom Hiddleston, all Tom. No wig. All Tom. Looks sensational. But we are smuggling under wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson.

T.M. We are smuggling hair flip watch. Hair Flip Watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM. And if you thought our guy Loki flipped his hair before, you ain't seen nothing yet when he glitches in and out of time and Tom decides to make part of his physicality of getting out of time of flip. Now, did I count them? Yes, I did.

Did I want to make sure we did a distinction between a flip and a toss? I did. Okay. So number one, the first flip is quite dramatic, is after the mail truck crashes into the TVA and we have cracked the floor. look, he lands on the floor, and then just arches his back, like, you know, he's working for the dollar bills and flips his hair, and flips his hair gloriously. You would think there would be one after the second glitch.

There is it. After the third glitch, we only get a hair toss. Sort of like a pony, sort of just like kind of absolutely, like sort of half tossing, half flicking the hair. So that doesn't count. That's not a flip. Different thing. Mm-hmm. So what constitutes a full flip?

The head goes down and then back. Like the hair has to flip all the way across the head, which if you watch the first one, full flip. Okay. After the fourth glitch, he does a toss and a flip. Interesting. So it goes flip, flip, toss, toss and flip. Elevator glitch? Yeah.

Full toss. back in front of OB when he goes back in time in front of OB we're in Toss territory but when he finds himself in the future yes when he is like oh shit the time stick didn't come with me what am I going to do

this is like Ariel coming up a part of your world you know like what would I like if you were a ginger and had a flipper for a tail this is this is the moment Full, full hair flip. And then last but not least, as he crashes into Mobius and he's like, we got to find Sylvie, that's a mere toss.

No flip. Amir toss. You know? Yeah. Look at this stuff. Uh-huh. Isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think my collection's complete?

So if you're counting at home, that is one, two, three, four full flips and four. tosses. Now, we'll take people behind the curtain for a second and say that when you previewed for us that you would be debuting this segment today, Steve asked if there were nine flips. So. See, I understand because every, every full flip feels like a lifetime. He just like completely arcs his body on like a parabola to give you the full, full toss experience, to give you the curls of.

bouncing. But the flick is really funny because he just wants it to like move. He's like, I didn't grow my hair out for nothing. You're going to admire the curls. And admire what we did. Like he's the glossiest little pony in the stable. That's how Loki makes his way through this episode of television. So there you go. I love this. Maybe it's like freeing to not be wearing the wig. The horns all the time. Oh, the horns. But the horns. Yeah. Yeah. Love this for him. Yeah. Love this for you. Love this. us for us. What a treat. That's incredible. So we'll be keeping a season-long tally. Yeah. What will be higher at the end of our season of Loki pods? The number of hair flips for

Loki in season two or how many it has been since you've seen Cobb fan. We're putting that bit to bet. That bit only comes out to play when Star Wars is involved. And we're not getting another Star Wars. Yeah. And that's why it'll be such a sticker shock moment when we reach the next bend in the road. We're in Flip Town, baby. I love it. No more yearning for, you know, marshals we're never going to see. We're flipping here.

Perhaps the flip will inspire your pick for our next category, which is a proud house of our tradition. It's the If This Show had Netflix subtitles award. So in case anyone's wondering, this traces back to our Stranger Things season four coverage and the instantly iconic flesh distends wetly, Becknet description, and the subtitles, historic. every process we have wondered what if the show we were covering had similar subtitling.

So I think we can really honor, sometimes I break out really long ones, Joe, but I think we can honor kind of the cadence of flesh distends wetly with skin distends flakily. That's one nominee. But how about X5 seeks to suckle greedily? I feel like you're really playing to the jury here. Like you're pandering to me by picking X5. I really like it. I liked S5.

Seeks to suckle. How about Lord of Lies, Nay, Rigatones, Nay, Rigatones, nay, Bucatini's himself through time and space. Ooh. Love a Bucatini. Delicious. How'd you do during the Bucatini shortage? The great book.

Oh, suffer. Suffer, yearn, pine. Perich. Urening sauce pans. What a time that was. Tough one. We did it. We did a podcast.

We made a podcast. Any other thoughts on Loki season two, episode one? I'm so glad to be back. I love this show. I'm so excited that I get to cover this with you. Same. Can't wait. Five more episodes.

I already feel like it's almost over. I'm sad. Except not a lot. Is it not astonishing that they sent press four episodes? out of six. Very, very strange. Can't believe it. So many.

It's a lot. Marvel, what's going on? All right, I will see you tomorrow, Mallory, at the Grove. I'll see you in the flesh. I hope that we... Not descending wetly. That's a wrap. It's a wrap on today's pod.

Take caution in your tone as we say thank you to our favorite time. Steve Allman. For producing this episode, Steve, thank you. Thank you for the great new soundboard work. The segment cues, we loved it. Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode. And Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, head back into the ringerverse.

There's a new button mash coming Wednesday on Assassin's Creed. Friday, there will be a new Midnight Boys instant reaction to Loki episode two. Saturday, Jessica Clements will have a splash page Easter egg breakdown video of Loki episode two. Joe and I will see you next Monday for our episode two deep dive. Deep. Until then. Get ready to see some hoping like you've never seen before.