House of R - 'Loki' Season 2, Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

It's time for another deep dive into ‘Loki’ Season 2! Mal and Jo are back to discuss Episode 3, “1893” (13:08). They talk about some questionable decisions being made by Loki and Mobius, discuss the horny motivations of Miss Minutes, and even sprinkle in a little Midwest geography talk (33:47). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. The important person you were going to meet, the one at the end of time, he told me that we need to put this package in that window. That's it? What do you mean that's it? It was his plan, meant to protect all of time. Then why didn't he do it? He's dead.

What? This was the plan he made when he knew the end was near for him. And welcome. House of Our, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you, not only to the Chicago World's Fair, but also to our new,-ish House of Our podcast feed. Joining me today, reminding me that he switches sides. It's a well-documented behavioral trait. It's my

house of our permanent title co-host and Carlos can I get a drum roll please? New York Times best selling author

of MCU the reign of Marvel Studios it's Joanna Robinson What's up Hello? Wow I did not Back. Superstar. Yeah, Carlos made you a custom soundbite. What do you think? Incredible. It's beautiful. Honestly, it's absolutely gorgeous, Carlos. Thank you. Carlos, one of the many

wonderful pals I got to see on this book tour. I just wanted to say a verse, foremost, most importantly, how much I missed you. It missed you so much. It's been two weeks since I last saw your beautiful face. Too long. Way too long. And all. Also, just to thank all the listeners who showed up to all the various events that we did, I met so many of our beautiful, gorgeous, wonderful, shiny, happy listeners on the road at various events. And they brought me apples and they brought me little like inside joke things and things to share with you, which I'm going to see you next week.

So I have like a whole bag of stuff to bring to you. And yeah, they were just like so wonderful. Our listeners are just incredible. So it was so nice to meet everyone. And also thank you to everyone who bought the book. Very, very wonderful, kind, generous of you. So, yeah. What a time to be you.

It's incredible. Just, I'm beaming looking at your face. So proud of you. What a time to like for our very cool community of listeners. And I loved watching them like meet each other in line. and like talk to each other. That was really sweet. It was just, it was very, very special.

Made all the more special by all the bad babies out there who showed up. So thank you all. Thank you. Oh, also, like genuinely love you and how dare you construct that gorgeous, like, beautiful moments in the MCU episode without telling me, making me weep on the subway. Hitting you during a subway ride was that was not, that was unlike Key Hero Mains, we did not pave the way to that exact time of discovery, but I started it and I was like, I started it and I was like, this is, this is so sweet. Oh, here's Vanney's being funny. And then freaking Ben Lindbergh hits the airwaves and just like decimated me on the L train.

So, yeah, thank you. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to everyone at the ringer. It's been so sweet and supportive. And I'm just delighted to be back here talking about Loki with you. So thank you. You're the best. 10 out of 10, no notes.

That's you. Joanna. As we reunite today, we will be discussing the third episode of Loki's second season. We're here to dive deep. But before we swing by the cruise. Cracker Jack, concession stand. Programming reminders. As always, we've got a few quick ones here.

Over on the Ringarverse. Mint Edition has a new GenV episode for you. Now it's a mid-season check-in. It's already up. It's a busy week on Ringarverse. There's something new basically every minute. Button mash. It's a button mash bananas, a double button mash this week.

Spidey. It's Spidey 2-day. We're a weekend. Spidey 2-day on the button mash. front right now. That pod is coming. Which is why you've not seen any of your, you've not seen any of your gamer friends, and this is why. Yes.

And mere days after that, they will be back with another episode because Mario Wonder also came out at the exact same time as Spider-Man 2. And of course, both of those games are huge and warrant their own pods. So Jess and Ben are delivered for all of you. So check that out. The Midnight Boys, Boob, Boob, Boob. Boo-boo! We'll, of course, be with you to react instantly to the fourth episode of this Loki season.

That'll be going up late Thursday night into Friday morning. And then Jessica will have a new splash page video breakdown of that Loki episode heading into the weekend. House of Our, we've got two pods for you this week. And it is time at the end of this week to resume House of Who. Joanna, what will we be talking about on Friday? Oh, we are talking about the three seasons and all the attendant Christmas specials of Peter Capaldi's run on Doctor Who. So that is two Clara seasons and a bill season, all of the Capaldi you could possibly ever want, is what we're talking about. And I'm so excited because I rewatching all the Capaldi episodes was just a really interesting reexamination of what does work and what doesn't work.

about those seasons for me. And Capaldi as a really interesting doctor. I've had so many people on the book tour, by the way, who love the Doctor Who episodes. So thrilled to hear that. Thrilled to know that you guys are enjoying this ride. And also really fun to be covering Loki and watching Doctor Who at the same time, obviously.

It's just a lot of timing-wime-wime-overlapse. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Great stuff. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Gosh, I'm thrilled you ask me this question because I know the answer, which is this. Number one, why don't you just subscribe to Ringerverse and House of Arr? Those two podcasts, among many others that you can find out of the Ringer Network, but those two, chief among them, right? So that's a thought. Follow us on the socials. That's also a thought, right? Because Jomi just like keeps all of the social channels popping on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter. I will never. call it X, et cetera, et cetera. Last and not least, certainly not least. You can email us, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com.

New trend. Okay, two things. Number one, sign it with your pickle is really in full of force because people are signing their emails with their pickle references. But also, two of our listeners in the Boston stop brought me a pickle pen that they, like, made out of like a plastic pickle and a pen

that they put together to make a pickle pen. I sent you and Steve the photo, but this is like a real signing with your pickle moment happened in Boston. So shout out to those folks. I love a commitment to the bit, you know? Yeah. I got a green apple on every single stop,

which was delightful. Did all of them make your gums bleed? No, they fortified me. I mean, they didn't keep the doctor away, unfortunately. but maybe maybe a honey crisp, whatever, who's to say? And then. Yes, because I'm always the picture of health. That's exactly right.

Yeah, your gums are definitely not bleeding. And then a new trend on the email. And I don't know when it started or how or why. But we've started getting invites. Someone sent us to save the date to their wedding. Someone sent us a housewarming to their like Christmas party. I love a wedding invite. Thanks for all the, thank you for all the invites.

We will likely not be attending, but like attending in spirit and love and affection. And thank you for including us in your special days. Just wait until the invites start for the weddings of people who met on the book tour. Oh, heck yes. You know? Heck yes. Oh my God, Ring Reverse Live is so soon. Next week.

I'm so excited. A week from today. Yeah. Do you know what your costume? Do you know what your costume is yet? No. as always, I've waited way too late.

I have a number of ideas, but none that I feel confident I can execute at this moment in time. My priority is really, it won't surprise you to hear this. Comfort and practicality. So, in some ways that unlock a lot of possibilities, yeah,

but in other ways, it's like, will I be wearing a costume that is recognizable as a costume? That remains unclear at this moment. How about you? Are you, are you, Are you certain? Oh, yeah.

It's been in the works. But you're going to keep it a secret. You're not going to reveal it. Yeah. Jim Jamal would be a really fun costume. But then how would you feel about wearing your indoor clothes outside? Like, how would that work for you? I mean, I would just change to a different pair of inside pajamas when I got home.

Actually, I mean, obviously I would immediately do robe and shower the second I got home. Yeah. Take your outside. Jim Jim's off, put them in the like, like by one, by like two fingers holding them delicate and drop them in the wash. Yeah, okay. As you know, I love comfort. I love an elastic waistband. Sue me. And I support you in that. I support you in that. Okay. Last programming reminder. It's the spoiler warning. It's the friendly neighborhood one

because today's podcast will feature plot points from 1893, which is the name. of this episode of Loki, the third episode of Loki, which was a robust, 56 minutes. Yes, also the year in which much of this episode is set. We're going to spoil the year. Yeah, we're going to talk about things that happened throughout that entire year. Guess what? H.H. Holmes killed a lot of people. Twist. What did H.H. H.H. Holmes call out in this episode, wild stuff. Also on the table, everything that's happened in this season of Loki to date, everything that happened in season one of Loki, anything that has ever happened at any point in the MCU. And,

And potentially anything from Marvel Comics canon. It's all on the table. Okay. Do this. We're a team. You need me. It's time to pawn. Oh, my God.

Oh, boy. I'm just going to start adopting a lot of, like, Miss Minutes lines into my... Minutisms. Minutisms into my daily speech. I've always said that you and Miss Minutes are like two peas in a pod, honestly. Two horny little peas in a pod. Charles and I are excited. sending a formal invitation to miss minutes to join us as the third chair on freaky fandom.

Love it. Okay. I don't know about calling, maybe gently whispering. It's time for the opening snapshot. Joanna. Bye. Give us your quick thoughts, a little taste on how you felt about episode three of Loki. And while you're at it, we didn't get to hear your episode two thoughts.

So if there's anything you would like to share at this point, please. the floor is yours. You said quick, but however. No. Are we smuggling a two-hour catch-up pod inside of another pod? You know how you hear from listeners sometimes about, they're like, oh, yeah, I listen to your podcast and I like yell, argue back at it. Thus was my experience listening to you and our beloved, genius, wonderful, angelic pal, Rob Mahoney filled in for me at the last minute last week. listening to you Rob talk about Loki episode two and I was just like, but, but, and you're already

preview to some of my like rebuttals via Texas. I sent a map of Oklahoma and Texas to Rob Mahoney last night. Wild stuff. Anyway, I took some notes. So here we go. First of all, Rob says Jif and that's the worst thing I've ever heard. I think that we agree that Rob is one of the best people who's ever lived, but that was tough. That was tough. That was terrible. I mean, I did like hearing from super tall Rob about his experiences on a flight. That was great, but the jiff was tough. He doesn't like keel and pie. Also extremely tough. Confusing. Yeah. And so pie is a big through line of the house of our experience. And so I really was like genuinely sad to not get to talk about this latest bit of pie canon with you. You don't like hot fruit. So you don't like warm fruit pies or cobbler. This is part of the established Joanna Robinson experience. Can you, you don't like hot fruit. So you don't like warm fruit pies or cobbler. So this is part of the established Joanna Robinson experience. Can you, let us know, though, how you feel about a cool, refreshing tart keeline pie. Wonderful. Delicious. Yeah. A citrus curd inside of a pie. A tart citron, a lemon meringue pie, like, whatever. Yeah. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. The best pie there is. Do you agree, though, that the key lime pie presented in the second episode of Loki had an unfortunate hue and texture to it?

It's funny, because I was on the, I was on Marvel.com. I was, like, looking up those Hiddleston interviews that you and Daniel Chin referenced. And while I was there, I saw that there was a post of like, they put up a recipe for the key lime pie. And it is a totally normal key lime pie recipe with the option of adding food coloring if you also want to make yours neon green. But in terms of the gelo-like consistency, which is going to take us into, obviously, Malibu Bambasvilor, but the jello-like consistency, I mean, I just, it's a little

soil, soylent greeny and it's a little like chalk it up to the, um, you know, the outsized production design of, of the TVA or whatever. What I did like about it is, um,

I liked that in that automat. It was, there was only one kind of pie. And I felt like that was really emblematic of like, you know, when Mobias is talking about, I only know the TVA. I only,

I only, I only have. this, this is my life, I don't want to know about my other life because this has been my life. It's like, that's a very like one kind of pie type of mentality, right? Yeah. When there's French silk and pecan and all these others, you know, I've ever told you that I used to work at a Baker Square when I was in college. And a Baker Square, I don't know if you know, Baker Square, Baker Square is essentially like a Marie

Calendor's a very pie forward restaurant. And they make you try all of the pies when you. you work there, which was absolutely disgusting experience for me because there's so many fruit pies that I had to take a choking bite of, like, strawberry rhubarb and like just really love a strawberry rhizherty. Bad, love. Terrible. Delicious.

That takes us to Mallory Ruben Fama's a lore. Yeah. I am shocked that Langello is your favorite, but that's a good thing to know. Do you want to guess my second favorite? This is again when I was a kid. I haven't dabbled in some time. But what do you think my second favorite flavor was? Is it one of the two best ones, either strawberry or cherry?

Oh, God. That's why I'm asking you to guess. Oh, no. It was one of the two best ones to me, and that's why it was my second favorite. Orange? Yep. No. Delicious.

So refreshing and wonderful. The number of cups, the little snack pack, the little jello cups that I ate, like, oh, me too. But strawberry and cherry only. I'm a red, I'm a red jello only person. right now that based on what you know about like my germaphobe existence will absolutely astound you. I'm excited. Not only was the theme jello and each table was a flavor, which, right. I do know.

So you get like a, like a, like you walk in, just like at like a wedding or anything. You get like your table. You're right. I'm going to find my name and see where I'm sitting. Is my, are my commemorative boxers like sort of rolled up and tied with a bow on my plate or do I get them in a bag on the way out the door? I can't remember. I have no recollection. I think they were sitting by everybody's...

I honestly don't remember. That's a good question. Who can say? I'll have to ask my mom. So the name... What is it called? Not a place setting. That would be your dish.

Place card. Thank you. Your place card. Yeah. I ate like a hundred... However many people were invited to this thing. Like 115. Little snack cups.

Individual cups. And I did it so carefully that the foil was only pulled half back so it would have this like nice curve to it. And like we washed and cleaned the inside and then hot glued on like the color of the table and put like tissue paper of the color inside to make it look like it was still full. And then your name was written on the spoon. So I gave people a bunch of cups that I had eaten from, which is horrifying and not something that I would feel comfortable doing today. But that is how committed I was to Jello. Quick follow up question. Carlos is just like, guys, what is happening right now?

Are we going to talk about Loki eventually? 20 minutes in. This is very reminiscent of the yellow jacket spot we did with Carlos, where we got to the end and we were like, oh, my God, the runtime. And he's like, it's fine. I know just off the top of my head a 14-minute stretch where you guys just talked about cheese and tea. And I can just cut that. No, okay. I have more Bob and some questions.

My understanding when you spoke with wonderful Angel Baby Rob Mahoney about this was that, this was a late idea that you had. So how much time did you have to suck down 115 cups of jello? I can't remember that exact time for it, but the entire thing was condensed because my parents never sent me to Hebrew school. So I was not on track to have about mitzvah. And then all of my friends were having them. And I was just, I had such intense fomo.

And so I asked if I could have one, and I had to do this very aggressive tutoring to be prepared. because I was not prepared. And they're like, learn your Haft Torah portion. And I'm like, I have jello to eat. Have I ever told you that once I got in trouble at Hebrew school, once I was going because I was reading Fellowship of the Ring under my desk instead of bang tension?

That's Anna Green Gables' core. Okay. Just a few more questions here. Mallory Rubin, do you drink tomato juice on a flight? Yes, I love it. It's my go-to on a flight. I crave the umami. Though, as you know, I'm a big tomato juice and like adjacent beverage fan anyway. Like, I have a spicy V8. I would say no fewer than three times per week, whether or not I'm on a flight.

I did know this about you. So I shouldn't have been surprised when you were like, you know, when you get on a flight and order your tomato juice. Like, it isn't just you and Don Draper doing that. A tomato juice on a flight is so wonderful. That umami, it pops, it hits. What do you have on a flight? No, you pass out right away. You're sleeping. You're not getting beverages. I drink a seltzer. I'll have a salzer on a flight. We do both love a, love a sparkling water. Yeah. But I never do that. All right. Let's, I have more questions for you, but I can save them for a person of the time. I can't wait. But those are my, boy. Those are my main questions that came up. All right. Okay. Wow.

Episode two, I loved. Episode two, I absolutely loved. I was crushed and I didn't get to talk to you about it. I do want to shout out I shouted him out in episode one but you mentioned him but I just, Raphael Cassell, I thought, stole that entire episode. I thought he was so good

as good old Brad Wolf. Also Bradwolf, I know it's a comic book name but like 10 of 10, no notes on that name. Just incredible. Yeah. I was sad.

I didn't get to hear all of your thoughts on the Bradwolf hair. The movie hair. Oh, God. Just incredible. Just no notes. All right. And then, so for this episode, I would say of the three, this is my least favorite so far. I think mostly because it takes us away from Loki and Mobius, you know, by design. And that's our favorite part of the show. Loki and Sylvia and Loki and Mobius are favorite parts of the show. So like when we talk about it being like a vibe and relationship show and then you get like something fairly plot, you know, Victor Timely, Bravona. that maniac, that pervert misnits.

She just wants what every young, clocky AI wants, you know. The most relatable content imaginable. The cartoon clock just wants to fuck. Girl. Girl. You know, who am I guess. Girl. When she was reactivated and was finishing the I love you sentence, it just killed me.

I just love her. Remarkable Miss Minutes episode. This really clarified for me. There was so much miss Minutes stuff at the premiere event. Like so much. We got Miss Minutes hat. You're like wards. Yeah.

A big Miss Minutes that you could take photos with. There was also like a lot of Kuline Pie stuff. So it's like, oh, this is just fun and weird. But no. Starring role for Miss Minutes here in episode three. Who knew? What other ephemeral was there? Is there anything that hasn't paid off yet?

That was at the premiere? There was like an apple pie. so that paid off already with the McDonald's, the key lime pie coffee, Miss Minutes. What else? Hmm. I can't remember anything else that feels like notable.

Though as usual, we, I don't know that we explored to the fullest extent possible. Took a couple team photos and then sat down. On brand. I hadn't watched this episode. We had screeners, but we didn't watch me on episode two.

So this was like new for me. week. And I'll just echo a little bit of what Charles said, which is just that, like, when I talked to my TV critics pals and they had not favorable things to say about this season, I was like, oh, I really liked the first two episodes. And they're like, oh, yeah, but like episode three and four, I'm not sure. And I was like, okay, well, I haven't seen them. So I will judge them for myself. And now I'm just sort of like, okay, well, we'll see how I feel about episode four. But if episode three is an indicator of like, this isn't going in the direction I wanted to go and we'll see, it's only one episode. We'll see what goes further. And then the last thing I'm

to say in this like LOL 20 minute long quick segment is that the director's question is kind of interesting because Kate Harron herself who was director of season one gets a little shout out in this episode

that both that they're on is named the Harron, right? So shout out to Kate Harron who did such a great job directing all of Locally Season 1. Last week's episode was directed by Dan DeLoo, right? Longtime VFX

pal at Marvel and this one was directed by Kasafar Hani, who I shouted out as the very talented production designer on season one and season two. So, you know, they're pulling up these folks who aren't really directors and giving them a shot at directing an episode. And there's a part of me that likes that the way that I like that Michael Jokino got pulled out of, you know, being a longtime all-star composer to direct Warwolf by Night last year. Like, I think it's really cool to give people who have never directed something an opportunity. But I would say both in like the action beats of last week's episode, at least most specifically in you and Rob shouted this out, all the stuff with docs and bombing the timeline and stuff like that. And like some of the action comedy chase stuff in this episode didn't really hit for me.

And I wonder if a more experienced, like, you know, has directed action before director might have done a better job with it. So I don't know. I feel I'm of two minds about it. Yeah, war with yourself. Mallory Rubin. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I hadn't considered the director aspect there at all. I, I, I, the slap sticky chase and action sequences wondered if it's just more indicative of like a tonal shift in evolution that they're trying to cultivate this season. Yeah, broadly I, I agree and have the same feeling about episode three. I was going to ask you that question, actually, if like watching this episode. helped clarify for you some of the preseason response, particularly, and we've talked about this in spots in the first two episodes, but it was much more prevalent across the entire episode.

And in this case, you know, the plot and timey, why me mechanics and examinations over some of those more introspective or interpersonal character and relationship dynamics that feel like so central to what made this show excel in season one. It's interesting, like I was thinking about in a lot of ways season two is more like what, this is not really like a relevant statement in any respect. It does not matter what I thought Loki was going to be before it aired. But this like feels to me more like what I was anticipating heading into season one. Like we would go on all these time adventures and it would be, you know,

and I think part of why season one wowed me and gripped me. so much was just because of its quality and because of what I think it achieved, but also maybe because I wasn't, I've always loved Loki and we've talked at length across many pods about how much his character tends to grip us. But even by that usual standard and by like our expectation and hope for what a Loki-centric show would do, everything with Loki Mobus, everything with Loki and Sylvie, it was just like the genuine awe of watching these characters sit for like 13 and a half minutes at a time and just talk about human nature. And this episode, I thought was fun.

I thought it was creative. I thought it was inventive. I thought that the Miss Minut stuff was genuinely iconic and like incredible. Agreed. And that's actually the kind of thing where I'm like, if you're going for more of the adventure of the week, timey-wimey stuff, I want more things like that that are just like, what can you do in a sci-fi universe that looks and functions and feels this way? Like things like that, right? Make it weird.

Make it yours. I vastly prefer spending time with Ravona and having her centered in an episode compared to general docs in the first two episodes, which, as you know, just did like absolutely nothing for me. But I'm just missing and was missing here more than in the first two episodes. So as you know, really, really liked episode two and enjoyed episode one. I'm missing the moments that feel like where our characters are moving forward. Like they feel very stuck in place, in part because they are so oriented around a single, each, the characters have different purposes, but they each have a thing they're working toward.

A little fire, a little fire they're putting out. And each episode has its mission, its task, right? And like, that can be fun and cool. Like Mando, season one, we talk about this a lot. Mission of the week, right? But I don't think any of us ever said that Mando's season one made us think about human nature, you know?

So it's a little bit of the measuring stick of season one that I just can't shake and maybe with time I'll move beyond that. But this was also my... There was a lot I enjoyed in the episode, but my least favorite of the season, certainly. Yeah. And that's the main critique I heard

from the people I talked to who had watched all four episodes and didn't like it, was that they said they didn't get into specifics, but they said sort of like, it kind of felt like episode four could have been episode you know one like that we hadn't like

and there's only six episodes so you know there's no time for where we were at this point in season one like this was this was episode three was Loki and Sylvia on the train like episode three was the before sunrise comps like and

you know if we think back to how we again this is just like I actually I've potted about that episode with Robb that's where I have like a false memory of having talked about that episode I know. I think we both were just like, not only is this a masterful single episode of television, but what they, we had met Sylvie at the end of the prior episode. And in a really short span of time, we had a deep, not only investment in them individually

and the journey that they were now starting on together, but an understanding, an understanding of what they were after and why. And I don't know that this season is handling that as deftly. like that's something I'm bumping on still. And I think also, like, you know, I don't know how much time we do or do not want to spend on this. But I think, you know, they were probably expecting that the Jonathan Majors' performance in this episode would be maybe as captivating as we found it in the Loki finale. And that that would be sort of the engine of this episode is just like captivated by watching a performer do his thing. And for various like non in universe reasons, I'm less enamored of watching.

in John the Major's performance, and then for various in-universe reasons, Victor timely is not as engaging of presence as he who remains was for me. So, you know, that's sort of like a double issue with this episode. But again, there's a lot to enjoy. And to your point, there's, I was reminded when the episode opens and we're in, you know, we get the, like, rack time opening theme and we're in, like, 1860, Chicago. This is so extremely my shit.

Like, canonically, if you want to talk about like Joanna Lour versus Mallory Lourd, three of my favorite TV shows of all time, all time, ever, always. For all time, always. Doctor Who is in there. Quantum Leap,

a show that I loved so much. And Highlander, the TV show that my friends and I, in high school used to watch all the time. And all of those shows would open almost every week with Doctor Who might be somewhere else in time and space. But like you might open an episode, you're like, oh, we're in Pompey in this episode. Or oh, this is the Shakespeare episode.

Or oh, this is the Agatha Christie episode. And like getting to, you know, or similarly in Quantum Leap and in Highlander, you like open up in a different point in time and your favorite characters would be there. But we're in a different point in time. And how fun and exciting to get to spend time here from like a production design, from a fish out of water, from a, you know, all this sort of stuff. Learn a little bit about history while you're here sort of thing. So like this episode should have been like that for me.

I will say like Brad Wolf in the in the 70s gave me that same vibe. And that's really fun. So should we go to 1868? Let's do it. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods market. Let's do it. Let's dive deep. Chicago 1868. Sacred timeline. There's a foot popping out of a time door, Joe. And it is Rivona Renslayer, and she is supremely confused about why she's here and where Ms. Minutes is. Miss Minutes is hiding in a barn waiting for Rvona, waiting for her package. It is Chekhov's TVA guide book, which he remains needs deposited with one of his variants to ensure the continuation of his plan, right? This is the task that Ms. Minutes set Ravona in the season one finale, that exchange that we have highlighted and called back to before. Some things had to get

worked out, Miss Minutes said. This is usually the line we leave out when we are quoting this. We usually start with, this isn't what I asked for. I know, but he thinks this will be more useful. Who happy reading. But the line before this isn't what I asked for is, some things had to get worked out. But I'm downloading the files you need now. So here we have more context and clarity. The thing that had to get worked out is this contingency plan. This is the opening clip that we heard at the top of today's episode. The plan meant to protect all of time made when he knew the end was near. Got incredibly strong Palpatine's contingency vibes here, Joe. If I die, rebuild things this way, and somehow I will return. Somehow, He Who Remains, will return. Do you think we'll hear

a character say that in this show at some point? Somehow, He Who Remains Return. That would actually be pretty funny. If they get Oscar Isaac's Moon Knight to do it, all the better. Lighters, gayos. Oh, man. Later skaters was just a great time. Man, miss that. Joe, your response to being back with Ravona in this moment in time. And what is your read after this initial setup for placing the guidebook through the window

where a young Victor will unwrap it and pick it up and we'll see that unmistakable orange cover? Is this 100% without a doubt a very, a variant of He Who He Who Remains wants to guide into continuing his work with the TVA and the maintaining of the sacred timeline, the thwarting of the other variants. Or are you leaving open a door for any sort of paradox scenario whereby this could actually be the character, Victor Timely, who turns into the original He Who Remains? Where are you with this? I like the theory. I mean, so Jonathan Manchin is obviously trying to give us like three distinctive performances. in He Who Remains, Victor Timely and King the Conquer, who we met in Quantummania.

I really like the idea that these are all three the same person, though. I can really see this arc from, like, stammering scientists who feels burdened with a glorious purpose, right? Who says, like, the dream I had of myself is coming true, right? and has that sort of like, I don't have partners, conquer sort of energy to him, becomes he who remains, who then ensures his own origin story. The TVA handbook is there because it was always there, because he always at the end of time,

drops it at the beginning of his loop when he's pouring candles in Chicago. And that gives us the auriboris, right? Like, that is what that is. So that feels kind of satisfying to me that that be the case. And certainly less complicated. A lot of people are, let me say something. Well, I'll save it for when OB has his usual techno-babel conversation this episode. But I think the more they can do to make all of this multiversal many variants of the same character plot less confusing for the audience, the better.

And so if Victor timely is King, is He Who Remains, that is easier for people to follow. I think it's true even if he's just one of them. Like the scenario you're sketching out where they're all the same is fascinating to contemplate. But even if he's just, this is the variant who becomes King the Conqueror. And they play with like time frame and origin and does what we know about certain points and what we hear from He Who Remains about the variant from the 31st century and all that track with. finding Victor here? No, but it didn't, we loved

that finale, but even inside of that explanation and speech, there was the like, okay, he's clearly talking about another variant, and then there are the moments where it makes it seem like in the Eliath part where he's describing oh wait, is he that variant? So this has always been, I think, to your point, like a little

untidy and they can kind of make it work, but it can also get too chaotic quickly. After that whole speech, Sylvie says, or you're a liar. And he says, or I'm a liar. And who we meet here is a confidence man, a con man. And so, like, this idea of like, or you're a liar. It's just incredible. Or I'm a liar. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he's spinning a story. And what he's doing?

I mean, this is what, I mean, the main thing that I was arguing back with you and Rob is I think you and I, and I think this is going to make for interesting podcasting for the whole season, You and I have a fundamental disagreement over who is right and who is wrong or shades of that at least in this season. So I think, but I do think we agree, I think, that in the season one finale of Loki, he who remains was provoking, trying to actively provoke Sylvie or someone to kill him. And so whatever he said was to that end. And so whatever he said was, could be absolute garbage. We don't know. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think there's an interesting question of if this is truly a variant, which did not always become he who remains, why this variant? Why Victor timely? And, you know, there was that line from He Who Remains in the season one finale, not every version of me was so pure of heart. And so there's like that idea, you know, would he be, if it is really a different version of him, would he be seeking somebody with traits like a pure heart that he and like a penchant for order over chaos, etc, that he thought he could better shape? Yeah, it's less the purity to me and more the order over chaos.

chaos. Yes. You know what he mean? Quite notable. Because like the scientific genius, he is a genius, right? The sense of the actual like technology and all the ideas while he's got the guidebook. So he's been like incepted to think about this stuff. And so his obsession with time and harnessing time and controlling time, okay, that's manufactured. But that that order and chaos line that we got from him when he was presenting the loom was like so notable in the context of what we understand about. he remains and what his sacred mission is. I mean, I think this is like, and this is, this is fun.

This is the fun kind of theorizing in a show and like a fun setup in a story where ultimately I think they've laid the groundwork for either outcome to be believable and to track with the logic that they've presented so far. You know, there's plenty of evidence just inside of this episode for getting even prior episodes for him being a variant or for some sort of paradox. Like the, okay, actually a variant list, and this is like certainly not. comprehensive, but when we go forward in time, 25 years, you know, they've been doing these labels, right? And that's a branch. So we could say, okay, does that indicate that this

wasn't how Victor's life was like supposed to go and giving him the book spawned this new branch? You know, there's that this was the plan he made line that indicates kind of like the contingency, like we were just saying, not really adherence to a paradox. Victor just seems really different. though I agree with you, it's compelling to think of, and even in this episode, he's evolving in his behavior and his mannerism. So how could that maybe continue in a more extreme fashion? The way he's like rounding his vowels. I don't know. I need to like listen to all three variants side by side. And I can't tell if he's doing it to distinguish them or to make a sort of, I think I'm going to use the wrong word here, but like phoneme sort of like unified trajectory. Jonathan Majors is the. kind of performer were. Anyway, another possibility, because this is the plan that he who remains makes this time. But, you know, similar to sort of like Stephen Strange, they give the 14,000 6005 possible outcomes of Thanos' plan. Like, is he dropping the TVA journal with a different variant each time, hoping, like Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap, that each time the next time the

leap would be the leap home? Like, this is the variant. that I need to drop the handbook with. Is he trying a different one each time? And this is Victor Timely's loop. Or I just kind of prefer from a simplistic point of view that it's always been thus. Yeah. And then in a bootstrap paradox kind of way, the TVA exists or that handbook exists because it has always existed on this loop going around and around in time.

Yeah. I had the same question about like, are there other stuff? scenarios and other variants who have been kind of primed in this fashion. But that's where, like, the, that's where Rvona and Miss Minutes and where they end up at the end of this episode back, not only back, like literally where they end up at the citadel at the end of time, but pissed, alienated. Like, okay, well, like, how often then, or how could they be used to like plant these other things? Has that always happened? Yeah. Are they supposed to be back there? Was that one of the things that they were counting on, Sylvie, like acting in that way? It's interesting.

You know, all of the characters, including Victor, keeps saying, like, some version of they're different, right? He says, well, that wasn't me. Like, Robona says, a version of you. Loki says, never met this man in my life. But to your point about being a liar, or just not knowing, not having that claim yet. Like, this would be information, yeah,

that he genuinely didn't possess. I think, like, to me, the single, and there's a lot of compelling paradox evidence, it was compelling. This reminds me of a baseball argument where you just pop up baseball reference or fan graphs and you're like, here are the five data points to make my case.

And the other side's like, same. I always do that. I know you love that. This package in that window, but like at the line from Miss Minutes, at this exact moment in time. Right. That was just so specific and precise.

And like why? Now, is it possible that just the study of all of his variants led he who remains to say, well, this would be the moment where a young Victor timely was most susceptible, maybe. But I don't know. It's a time travel story. They're thinking about paradoxes. They know the audience is going to be thinking about them. So I don't think you have a line like at this exact moment in time, yes, unless you want to kind of spark that line of of inquiry. Right. And even like though they're really different, we do build toward Miss Minutes, it doesn't think very long for, oh, you're so much like him. Right. And like that when when he's back where he belongs with our help, he'll be all he's meant to be. Like the gap between them is shrinking rapidly in the course of just one episode. episode, it's, uh, it's interesting. You're pretty, you're pretty singular yourself or you will be, right? Like that's, it feels like he is the same one. The way.

Right. So, you know, it's, um, I'm, I will keep my mind open to all, everything's possible in the multiverse and everything's possible in a time travel show, but, um, that seems to be the tidiest, just the way in which we were like who prun loki, Loki, Loki feels just like the tidiest thing to do. This feels like the tidiest thing to do. But what I am desperate for, if I believe that Sylvie was manipulated into stabbing He Who Remains and that's exactly what he wants,

then what I'm desperate for is for her and Loki to figure out what to do that isn't what he wants. How much is everything that they're doing the way that he paved for them? And how much is their chaotic nature, their mischief, God chaotic nature going to finally break his orderly little loop that he has orchestrated again and again and again. That's that, to me, that feels like a satisfying story that in that their mischievous, chaotic nature is the asset, is the thing that you need in order to finally break something that is a problem. Especially because like what is chaos and mischief truly? Like, it's free will. It's the thing that they both thought.

they wanted and wanted to fight for. I'm really compelled by that and the way you're sketching it out and the idea of a provocation and like an entrapment. I think that would be really interesting and seems very plausible based on what we've seen so far. I also almost as strongly really like the idea that that was just one of the scenarios and that the thing that's scariest about him actually is that no matter what choice you make, no matter how much you embrace that idea, of free will, he's ready for you and waiting for you. That's like more harrowing to me, actually. Is it because you've seen the future of the MCU and you know that there's a movie called King's Dynasty coming? Well, you know, it's, I'm glad you mentioned that actually,

because I do think that that is hanging over this season, not in a way that is unique, like, or particularly uncommon in the MCU, but we know what stories were heading toward. Like, season two of Loki does not end with a definitive thwarting of Kang the Conqueror and his variance. It just doesn't. So I think the question becomes like how are they working inside of that to make this story feel satisfying and like the characters had a bearing on their lives and their events, not just in a like what I really don't want. Again, what I want is not relevant. It's just another like, though this was the thing I'm about to say before, the thing that I'm about to say became a part of our lives. I don't just want like another Sabine handed over the map.

And like everybody just spends all their time talking about whether Sylvie fucked up and how much of this is her fault. Like I think the idea of culpability and anticipation is interesting. But like, no, no, no. I mean, not her fault. Oh, I'm not saying you're saying that. Yeah, yeah. But I don't see it as the same as Sabine handing over the map. I see it as just sort of like she thinks she's doing.

Sabine knows that she's doing that moment. Sylvie thinks she's striking a blow and, you know, for liberty. I don't think it's... What I think is really odd as I was reading an interview that Eric Martin gave in New York Times, Eric Martin head writer of the season. and the interview asks, you know, the question you should probably ask any MCU creator, which is like, how do you create your story in the larger tapestry of the MCU that you're weaving here? And Eric said, I don't know if it's just boilerplate sort of what he's been told to say,

but he says, we're fortunate that we really have our own little sandbox here, where we're able to be really creative and branch off into other directions without stepping on other projects. And some of that's by design, while some of it's just what we found along the way. and I'm just like, how can that be true when your central villain character, whatever, as played by Jonathan Major, called character, whatever you want, is wrapped up in this like multiverse saga. Like, I don't understand that perception at all.

But what I will say is what I'm trying so hard to do is not get caught up in the larger story and drill down. And like, so when we talk about the plot of this episode, And like the larger multiverse question, I try to avoid the larger multiverse question and always think, okay, what do these characters need in this moment, right? And it's like so simple, despite O.B.'s like, Technopabble, which I already said I would wait for, but I'm not waiting for. Which is just like, okay, Mobius and Loki need Victor timely to expand the loom. and Ravona, Miss Minutes, want him to contract the loom and make sure there's one timeline. And that's simply it.

He's the key for each of them. And then there's character beats in between. But in terms of like, what does this mean for the multiverse? That's this, it's a simple, it's a simple proposition. So trying to keep it all as, like, simple as possible. Like, Maloki's, like, simpler. And I'm like, even simpler. Make it even simpler.

And just sort of like, what do our characters who we care about? Being okay, just like Loki, I just want Sylvie to be okay. What do they need in this very precise moment? But what's so interesting about the season, we'll talk about this a little bit more, is like the small fires that they keep having to put out in every episode, which is preventing them from thinking about the big fires, and the big fires are sort of like what you and I care a bit more about. So it's kind of interesting.

I think that has been a strange structural choice for the season. ultimately. Yeah, yeah. Miss Minutes, Joanna. A little conspicuous, speaking of conspicuous things, an orange cartoon clock. It's not going to work.

A black and white, old-fashioned cartoon clock. Sipa-ish? Totally fine. Ravona deposits the guidebook. Young Victor picks it up. Fun moment. My heart was, like,

pumping when we see the cover and then we like get that surging score and we head into the Loki, you know, all the little, the variance of all the letters in Loki in the intro, that was,

that was fun. What did it remind you of? I mean, it's very obvious. I'm not, I'm the last person to say it, obviously, is that it's,

it's the sports almanac from Back to the Future to, back to the future to, chronically, a movie that Kevin Feige thinks about a lot. Like, I don't know how much

Kevin Feigy's fingerprints are on Logie, but if I were him, I would take a good amount of interest in, like, the most successful television show that I've done and the most beloved long-running Marvel villain slash antihiro. But all of the Back to the Future Ness, and Kevin Feige loves a Back to the Future that's going on here. But if you've never seen Back to the Future, too, our villain, Bif Tannen receives a sports almanac from a future version of himself and it allows then our young

our young 1950s villain Bif Tanna to turn into you know, can make, make, I don't know how sports betting works exactly, no, I do, I do. He makes a series of very lucrative bets because he has a sports almanac from the future. You know, so to give Victor timely a manual

of the TVA filled with all these technological advances that he has no way of, would have otherwise no way of knowing as a boy boring candle wax in, you know, 1860s Chicago. Yeah, that's the, that's the Loki version of the Back to Future Two Sports Almanac. I love, I love this shit, honestly. This was really great. This was fun. And the way the guidebook surfaced throughout the episode and the doodles that we see and the sketches and everything about his correspondence with the author or Arboros, like that stuff was all.

Really good. Before Mobius and Loki can join us in Chicago, we've got a mission prep for a minute here. This is where we get the, even by the standards of this season, like astonishing attempted explanation from OB. First of all, there was an interesting before we get that. A little mention of how the branches that docs pruned

are, quote, growing back. Was your read on this that the pruning, was not complete, or that this indicates like new nexus events, sparking. New nexus.

I thought it was new nexus events. Yeah. But like, me too. My question is like, why did we even do that? If it's just like, just kidding,

the problem is worse than it ever was. Like, I don't understand why any of that happens last week. This is also part of, I think, the challenge of this season compared to season one. It's just like,

a lot of false resets or hitting pause for reasons that are unclear. Like, actually in this scene, we get another one when Casey seems in real time to suggest, and it's like presented like nobody had thought of it previously that, well, what about, what about Miss Minutes? And like last episode, multiple characters who are in this scene right now had a conversation about this. O.B. said, and he's dead, meaning he remains. So without miss minutes to help us override the lock, we're stuck in case you replied.

So we have to convince a rogue artificial intelligence to come back to work? Like, why are we not just picking up from there? Why are we repeating that epiphany? It feels like in case the audience didn't catch that last time. But like, I don't know. In case you missed Boba Fett, like here it all is. Exactly. This is the prior episode of this show.

Precisely. Anything else you want to say about the OB throughput? explanation for what they need to do to the old loom? I did enjoy Loeufi simpler. I know. The word throughput here, which of course will ping when we hear throughput multiplier from Victor Timely later. I wrote throughput manipulator, no fewer than 400 times in our notes before realizing

that I had that wrong and changing it to throughput multiplier. But I'm just going to say that now. It's a pre-apology for all the times that I say throughput. manipulator later because it's just in my hand, even though that's not what it's called. I don't know why. Now you're ready. I'm ready. Let's go back to 1868. 1868. We would be remiss, I think, if we didn't spend a moment on FitWatch. I'm sorry that Rob isn't here because I feel like he is more well-attuned to this than I am. But I will say, this is something I'm really excited about for the new Doctor Who season.

that we have not gotten yet after the anniversary specials, all the photos of the Shrutigatwa season are showing us that they are going to do different period costumes in that season, which is like in Doctor Who famously, like the doctor just wears the same thing in every episode, not so our very fancy dandy new doctor played by Shitagawa.

So I just love, I love a costume change. I loved this, this 70s tucks on Loki last week. love the looks this week. I think they look great. You love a hat. So this was huge for you. Yeah. How did this compare to Kristen Cole's hat for you? This is like the absolute diametric opposite of Kristen Cole's abomination of a hat. Remember how stupid that fucking hat was? And how Kristen Cole's like certainly they'll never, they'll never notice me in this stupid fucking brimless hat. Incredible. Did Loki's hat make it in any way more difficult? Did Loki's hat make it in any way more difficult for you to track the hair flips? I was wondering about this. I'm so glad you mentioned

this. I'd like to know how your process is impacted. I just want to let everyone know and I'm so sorry I've been away and I've been a little sick. Hair flick slash toss slash flip watch is on pause and we'll be back in full. I will do a full accounting of all four episodes of all four episodes, a full tally, next week. This is like, I do not have the full account. During House of the Dragon, we're like second or third episode, it was like, are we ready to track the most reliable narrator from Fire and Blood? And then like the next week, it was like Mushroom.

Here we go. We're ready to tally up your victories. Oh, man. Mushroom. Good stuff. House of the Dragon. Multiple House of the Dragon references in the span of mere moments here. Great stuff.

It's no Thorne the Dark World, but we do our best. Oh, man. So, Joe. Yeah. Loki and Mobius is just looking dapper, suits, hats, all of it. They arrive on the sacred timeline in Chicago in 1868, and they're like, wow, why here? I wonder, okay, we know they had two hits on the temp pad. Mobius, this is not a pivot point in history, he says.

It's not. So like what might wait? Well, if we spend like three seconds walking half a block, we can probably deduce in full that there's nothing here waiting for us. I thought this was so funny. They could not have spent less time assessing the circumstances in 1868 before moving on. Later Mobia says a little good old fashioned legwork, clues, breadcrumbs, that sort of thing. I'm like, not a single leg was worked in this scenario, no.

I think previously I would have nominated them pretty. high on the list of fictional characters I would want on the case if there was some mystery about me that needed solving if I needed to be found no longer. What if you knew that there was cracker jacks involved somewhere in the scenario? Yeah, if I'm near a concession stand, then Mobius is my guy. If I'm in a hot air balloon, just enjoying a leisurely afternoon, I still want him in the mix, but otherwise. Can I say that Mobius, incredibly smart, wonderful detective, we saw him do great detective work season one. And, and, and, like, I think of him as a scholar of time, right?

Yep. Yep. I know, like, two things about Chicago. The Great Fire and the World's Fair. And the fact that, like, you and Mobius both. No, but the fact that he didn't, like, that 1893 didn't, like, ping for him at all. He's like, oh, yeah, the World's Fair. And I'm like, what are you talking about? This was amazing. He did at least mention the fire, though, and knew the date. So that was something. But I was like, where did you think we were going? Yeah, of course, we're going to the World's Fair.

What are you talking about? Classic. Oh, Mobius. What a guy. What a guy. And they move forward to the World's Fair. 2, 1893. Loki can't believe they're in the same place.

I did enjoy that little moment where Mobius, because Loki's like maybe there's like a mistake. Maybe they went to the earlier time by mistake and weren't supposed to. And Mobius is sure, like, Romona doesn't make mistakes. She doesn't do things by accident. there was definitely a purpose. And I like just like that little reminder of the depth of their history.

Yeah. This is where we get that good old-fashioned legwork quote. We had some really funny Mobius lines, as always in this episode. That was a truly great one. And they don't have to wait long, Joe, for their first breadcromb because a little newsy is hawking a paper.

And he's shouting about a ghost clock. They rightly think, let's buy one of those and look. And right there on the front page, it's our gal Miss Minutes terrorizing the people of Chicago by turning into a giant ghostly apparition of a cartoon clock

in the middle of the street. I love this. I love this. I love this. Listen, my lady does not like to be ignored. She's like, I will not be ignored. Mere scenes away from moving directly in front of Ravona

on the refrigerator chair to get in Victor timely's eyeline. incredible. This also felt like a back-to-the-future reference to me because no matter where you are in time in Hill Valley, someone's going to be hawking newspapers about the clock tower, whether you're in the Old West or the 1950s or the 1980s, there's going to be a newsy talking about the clock tower. So I thought Ghost Clock Honts the Midway felt like another Back to the Future reference to me.

I love it. I love it back to the future reference. And I love seeing journalism alive and well even on the branch timeline. You know, because what changes on a branch timeline will plenty, but what is consistent? Journalism. Newsies. Headlines don't sell papes. Newsies sell paps.

You're the best. Let's get a snack. Let's get a snack with our guys. We transition to movie. They're recounting the places that they've already visited. This is a little bit of a I'm at war with myself aspect of watching this season for me because my genuine just like reflexive response that was, I want to see every place they went. Like, I just want to hang out with them. And it reminds me I'm often saying, like, if this

were just an adventure of the week's story with my guys, I'd be so happy to watch it. I would be just thrilled to spend time with these characters we love. So I'm like, why is that suddenly not hitting it like 100% for me the way it was before? And I think it's all the reasons we talked about earlier, but this was kind of an interesting moment where I'm like, I do just want to hang out with them. But maybe we're not going to hang out with them enough. It's interesting. It did remind me, like, Mobius wanting to eat Crackerjacks and whatever else reminds me so much of so many little Doctor Who scenarios. And we should say that, like, I mean, later they're referred to as like, is it the wizard and his butler? The magician in his butler.

A wizard, I think. Great. Yeah. Like. Dude, you're embarrassing in front of the wizard. They're giving such doctor and companion vibes here with Mobius being the companion and Alogi being the doctor. and this is such like a companion moment of like, oh my God, they've got cracker jacks. Like, let's go see this.

Let's like have you tried the snacks. Okay, so which doctor and which companion do Loki and Mobius remind you of the most? Like, who are the comps now that you've said this. Now I need to know who you would compare them to. Loki is a real 10 vibe to me. I mean, right? Two of the greatest of all time, two goats. Yeah.

But I don't think we've seen as yet. a companion like Mobius, as yet in your journeys through Doctor Who? Intriguing. Maybe a little bit like wolf-ish. But not really, because I think there's too much like, I think all the companions have too much like hero worship for the doctor. And that's not Mobius's relationship with Loki, you know? Right.

He literally forgets that he's a hero as we were reminded in this scene where they come across the North Hall attraction. He's like, I forget that you're one of them. So it blows my mind. So you get that reverence, like, wrapped inside of a reminder that it's like, he doesn't think about him that way at all. He's just like, he's his bell.

He's his colleague. The wizard and his butler. The wizard and his butler is genuinely very funny. I just thought that Mobius insisting that the Cracker Jack trip was necessary. It was like, this is just why Mobius is the absolute best. It's a high traffic area. It's necessary and logical to go there. I love this. I thought

this was wonderful. I love how much canon we're building about their respective views on sweets, on snacks. It reminds me very much of like, I'm like, we need to, we need them to chime in on Apple Wars. Like, it reminds me of us a little bit. You know, they weren't on the same page about Kibblui. That was where they, of course, we got the grapes and nuts reveal, you know, Do you not have candy on Asgard? And Loki was just not feeling the pie like Mobius was last week. And now this. Like, Loki says that the Cracker Jacks taste like ash.

Do you think he said Ash because it's Disney Plus and he couldn't say ass? I mean, they're probably keeping alive the prospect of Cracker Jack being a sponsor one day. You know, you can't say that it tastes like ass. You got to think ahead. You got to keep all options open. All revenue streams open. Yeah, I think what's true about our guy Lillard. is that he does not like processed foods.

Well, if you grew up drinking the finest honeyed mead and the literal nectar of the gods, like I guess it's, yeah, it's hard to blame you. This is a great argument that the Midnight Boys had, tremendous stuff, because I just, like, loved the Asgardian defenders on that, on that pod being like, yeah, it's like, yeah, they're eating Imbrosia and shit in Asgard, of course. beautiful roast chickens, etc., etc., all like free range, farm to table, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I don't, like, all this processed food that Mobius is trying, like, Mobius is a trash palette, which may or may not link us back to the whole, like, is Jack Mobius, like, question?

In his defense, he was eating a salad for lunch before in season one, before Loki started showing that salad was like a apocalypse. Five leaves of iceberg and like some dehydrated, like dehydrated shredded shredded carrots. Like no. What's your go-to leafy green in the salad? Arugula. I love arugula.

Look at us. Yeah. We made our way back to each other. I do like a kale salad too. I don't know how you come back in. All right. Here we are. You got to massage the kale though, but yes.

Like absolutely yes. Unmissaged kale, no. But massage kale, yes. I don't know what that means. This is simply do not know what that means. I'll look forward to finding out. Well, if you've ever had, like, you have, okay, I'll talk to you about massage and kale later. If you ever had a kale salad, the kale has probably been massaged.

It's been massaged. Okay. You live in L.A., all your kale is massaged. Great. So this is a kale salad. This is not one of the scenarios, unlike warm fruit in the Apple Wars, where we need to say to each other, we have different styles. You're a man of action, which is fine.

I take a more slow, deliberate cerebral approach, because I see everything. I notice everything. We're just on the same page here. That's great. I love that for us. But yeah, I think what's going to be consistently true is that Mobius is going to be like, give me the cabloy and the, what was the, sodium drinking jet? I can't remember.

Jostah? Gista? Give me the. Sorry. Shitty McDonald's apple pie. Give me the Cracker Jacks. Frankly, how dare you? And Loki's like, I don't.

Loki, you know, like Giselle does not eat refined sugars. So I think that that is just true. Oh, man. What do you think Loki's thoughts are on the TB12 diet? Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. I'm guessing that's Tom Brady. Exactly. He nailed it.

Great. There you go. Thanks. We got some great Loki turns a phrase in front of this Norse attraction. Grass, generalization. Such poverty of imagination. just shot to the Hall of Fame. That was so good.

I hope you start putting that in your editorial notes when you're like critiquing one of our beloved your colleague. Your kicker is your lead and also such poverty of imagination.

Where's your nut graph? What are you doing? God. Balder the Brave. What a moment. This is Thor and Loki's half brother from the comics getting some shine

here in carved Easter egg form. Joanna. No Loki carving. Tough look. For our guys, the Chicago World's Fair Norse attraction carvers? Famously, runtist.

Man. Ice rentists. It kind of makes you feel bad for him. Mobius is like here are basically all the other fun things that I would like to do at the fair today, and we could look for clues there. And Loki's like,

I would like to draw your attention to the marquee. His name is Victor Timely. And he's got a stand-in-temperal marvel. When we go to the balloon park, Mallory, are we like riding in the hot air balloon? I think so. Yeah, I think you have to, right?

It's like a date on The Bachelor. You got to... I'm probably not. Or you're going to have to, like, drug me. It's not high on my list of desirable activities either. I have a heights thing. I don't think I can go in the balloon. I'm not like the biggest fan of heights, but if I'm high up, I do like a view. If I'm high up, I want to, you know, no, I don't know. I do like to like trek to the top of a lighthouse or a cathedral or something and look out of a beautiful city. But I feel like, but solid ground beneath my feet versus a swing basket. And a metal railing and not just like a wicker. Yeah. And at any moment that wicker can whisked me to like a cause or something. Yeah, I don't want to go. Oh, man.

Great stuff. Well, let's go instead into a expanded version of the quantum mania stinger. This is what we got a little glimpse of, Joe, at the end of your favorite Marvel film, Ant Man and the Wasp, Quantum Mania. Again, a movie that I'm constantly astounded to recall came out this calendar year. Famously. Talk about a temporal marvel. What's interesting is, though, I don't hate that movie as much as some people seem to think that that's like the worst Marvel movie ever. Not my experience. I also, I like King in that movie, except for the way that he gets like washed at the end by

an ant farm, which is not a very, you know, I love a pet. But I thought, I thought he was like the best part of that movie. So I don't know. That's my memory. Yeah. Same. My memory is potting about it with you from my stepdad's, uh, duck laid in den. Yeah.

his basement layer with his train sets and seafaring vessels. Great guy. The Wi-Fi was strong. It worked. Comfy chair, too. Ravona and Miss Minutes, who is hidden away. Enter the hall. They're followed mere moments later by Mobius and Loki, and Mobius is sure that Ravono will be here. And the reason that he is sure is because, quote, she does like a good choice. drink. It's just an incredible thing for him to say, though, it does make us think back fondly on their whiskeys that they would share, Joe, and the little rings from the glasses. Yeah. The rings were such like an interesting, that is such a strong thing from season one because

like it is such an interesting precursor to this idea of them having their minds wiped. And we still don't know the full extent of that. And I suspect that's sort of part of what we're talking about at the end of this episode. But I, I, I, I, just thought that was such an intriguing thing that they dropped at the beginning of season one, when Mobius is like, who else is in here leaving all these rings on your table? And she's like, that's you, buddy. And he's like, no, couldn't be me. Anyway, Mobius has like a little thing for Ravona. And it's like, we're not talking about a love triangle here with Miss Minutes of Ravona and and whatever character Jonathan Majors is playing in any given moment. Mobius is in the mix, too.

you know. Definitely. I mean, remember like our first interaction between them when she's at the judge's chair? I'm looking up to you. It's appropriate. It's appropriate. Mobius, great character. Loki stops him from just immediately running over to Rivona. Got to observe, wait, by their time. And Victor, timely,

emerges onto the stage. Our first Kang variant of the season. It's just a very, very, very quick Victor Timely Comics Corner here because this is a character from the comics who found timely Wisconsin

that is of course why we go to Wisconsin later in the episode more on that later more geography corner coming later in the episode you had thoughts

on Texas and Oklahoma but wait for this runs timely industries which is like fueled by the knowledge from the future so similar so far a notable bit of comics canon that we should just be aware of here.

Very relevant based on the theory that you've sketched out at the beginning of this podcast. Well, not the beginning. We were like 25 minutes into Jello Talk by then. Jello Corner. We were just like wiggling and jingling our way through the opening snapshot. Don't you think you should go as Jello for Halloween? I think you have time. I think there's this time between now and our live show for you to suck the Jello out of like

115 cups and just like secure them all over your body. Like a like a little like holiday decoration where you make the the rings and connect all of the things. Maybe I'll see. I don't know if it feels like a enough of a nerd culture touchstone for a costume. But I'll give it some thought. I don't. I think nerd culture is in the eye of the beholder.

That's true. What a beautiful way putting it. I agree. I think like the, as always the comics canon is long and complex. But I think the thing that's worth noting is just. that Victor Timely in the comics is not a variant. He is Kang Prime in disguise. So does that mean that Victor Timely in the show

will become King? Who knows? But it might be a little more. Something that's interesting to point out about King in the comics, though, is that what they love to do is like introduce the character. And then like a little ways down the road,

they're like, just kidding, that was King. Hiding out in disguise on a mission. That was King. Yes. Guess what? That was also Kang. So, yeah. Hallers. Loki and Mobius spot the loom.

And they're like, wow, loom, okay. A lot of loom talk. And a very, it's a loom centric episode once again. And then Loki spots timely. This is the bit that we got in the stinger, in Quantum Manio. We get like more lines here, longer stretches of dialogue. But it's basically the scene. The performance that we get from majors here is very, very,

different. This is like much more exaggerated than what we just glimpsed in the stinger. We get to hear him talking about time. Perhaps we can shape it. And we get that Mobius Loki exchange that we had previously seen. It's him who. He who remains. What? You made him sound with this terrifying figure. He is. Which Loki will very quickly talk himself out of being worried about in order to bring this figure back to the TVA, which we'll get to later. look, he's like, this is it. This is exactly what he who remains said would happen. This is one of the variants that he who remains warn me about, it's coming, it's beginning. Because we got that finale exchange, reincarnation, baby, right? What's the worst that can happen? You either take over

and my life's work continues or you plunge your blade into my chest and an infinite amount of me start another multiversal war and I just end up right back here anyway. So, Oh, this is it, right? It's what he told them what happened. Here's the proof in front of Loki's eyes. Loki didn't hear that little see you soon that Sylvie got. She had the bonus confirmation that this would be unfolding. It feels like the same person.

Yeah. Anything else about this presentation that we get to witness, which of course this time obsession and knowledge like sparked and enhanced by the guidebook? This is where we get that. A chaos of particles transformed into. order line, which calls back to his That's the Gambit. Yeah. The Midnight Boys had a great long conversation about

whether or not this performance from majors worked for them, which I largely agree with, but something that I do like about the way that he plays his presentation here in his odd stilted delivery is we find out later that that's like

a cover for his stammer. And that's just like an acting choice, a big, you know, capital A acting choice. that I kind of like this vulnerability that Victor Timely has and he has turned it into like this part of his showmanship

is these long dramatic pauses that he takes is a way to like work through a stammer that might otherwise be like debilitating and I I I think that's fascinating a fascinating little character choice

that I really like overall I would say yeah this doesn't there's something off about this whole sequence, like, through the Ferris wheel, the chase, the back and forth, like, all the people, like, it should be Madcap in a, like, a really fun way. And it just, like, timing-wise, didn't really feel like it was going for me. But I like that aspect of it a lot. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about the exchange that Loki and Mobius have about what to do with Victor Timely, now that they have stumbled.

across him. Carlos, can we hear this? You need to bring him back to the TVA. You got your mind? You can't trust a variant of he who remains in the TVA? That's a later problem. We have a very serious now problem. The lead.

Yes, and his aura is the only thing that can get us access to the loon. And who knows what else he can do? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir. ever going to get Rensselaer or Miss Minnis to help us? I mean, Joanna. What do you think?

Bringing a Victor timely, a variant, as far as they understand it, of he who remains back into the TVA, which he who remains built and used to control the flow of time and people's free will. Good idea? A bad idea? Where are you on this? It's a bad idea. But if it's the only thing that they think will fix this. larger loom problem that they have.

Put out the little fire they need to put out. And this is the problem again, as we said, they're chasing these little fires and unable to take a breath to think of the big fire. I suspect I am going to be frustrated. I'm not that frustrated that they're taking him back to the TVA. I expect future me is going to be frustrated by maybe some sort of lax supervision

when Victor Timely inevitably wriggles out from their grass. inside the TVA. That's going to piss me off. I think there's a way to do this where you like, you know, not to get miss minutes too excited, like chain and gag him. You know what I mean? Don't let him talk to anyone. Very man in black and the loss. Like, don't once you let him talk to anyone you've already lost, like just get him in, get him. I don't know what's required for the aura, but just sort of like whatever you need aura-wise and then kick him through a time door into a chasm. I don't care. You know what you mean? But like, we'll get to that in a second. But you can bring him into TVA, but you got to watch him closely and I expect that they won't. So what do you, what do you

think? Yeah, I think priming ourselves for expecting that they won't is a good headspace to get into based on how things have gone so far. I, here's the journey I went on. I was like so baffled and actually pretty annoyed watching this conversation. And then I talked myself into it because I think thematically there's a way that you can say this is actually like gets to the heart of the tension that's at, you know, the center of the ensuing Victor and Sylvie Exchange. And then I worked my way back to like

not feeling great about it. Because I think that while it is true that the loom and the urgency of that is kind of forcing their hand a little bit, I don't think that it's great storytelling for the urgency of your plot to cause your characters to make decisions that they shouldn't make.

On the other hand, like Mobius last season. Mobius, I'm okay with. It's Loki that I'm, like, bumping on. Mobius last season was like, I'm going to work with a Loki to catch a Loki. You know what I mean? Like, Moeus attracts and also, like,

he didn't interact with He Who Remains, the way that Loki did. He's kind of like in real time trying to catch up and is often like, wait, what are you so freaked out about? Like, this doesn't seem that bad. So Mobius suggesting this. Do you think it would work better for you

if Loki had just like resisted a bit more. We are in the same scene where he just like wilted in terror seeing this guy and it takes some like 12 seconds to be talked into bringing him back to the TVA. That's just bizarre. So I think, yeah, pacing. I think are you out of your mind, can't trust a variant of you who remains the TVA? If that had been like a taking a refrain for two thirds of the episode and finally like, okay, we have no other choice sort of thing.

Yeah. Okay, so we get that great line from Rivona about how changing his mind is central to Loki's character. And I think that's true. But I do think one of the things I'm bumping on this season is like, okay, so we end season one with Loki saying, not that he agrees with he remains, but just that he wants more time to think. And that's where he is at the beginning. I want more time to think. But now it's like he's made his decision and we don't really know exactly how he got there. And here he's just like, okay, I'm instantly talked into this, even though he should, I think just have the wisdom to be more concerned.

and more trepidious. And to like, if they're going to do it, if they're going to get to the point where it's essential and there's no other choice, though, I'm honestly, I'm like, yeah, I know the loom, they're on the clock, but like, have you exhausted all options? Are we sure?

You know, it's just too quick to make that decision that irresponsible. I agree, but on the other hand, like, I mean, I will admit that, like, the loom, like, absolutely, like, shaking and sparking and, like, seeming like the most calamitous thing ever. And then Obie, who seems very trustworthy,

being like, this is going to end all time. We're all going to die. And this is the only thing we can do is this. I mean, I don't know. I think I would be attempted to put out that little fire. But I would be very careful. What about the original plan to try to get Miss Minutes back? They just immediately give up on that.

And they're like, let's just bring a he who remains variant back instead. When we know that he said, like, Loki heard him say, reincarnation baby. That's the thing. Like, Loki stared him in the face as he was like, well, another version of Mewel just come back and do it again. And he's like, okay, cool, let's bring them back. I think the thing I like about it, which was kind of where I was being pulled back in, they pulled me back in. Just me thought you were out. Yeah. It's just I thought I was out. I pulled me back in. I'm not out on Loki's. Do I really like the show? Just like these little snags. The,

I do love that meme. The question of like, is it wrong to assume that all variants of he who remains are evil because their variance of He Who Remains is interesting. And I think it's a poignant exchange with Sylvie. Yes. Core interesting dynamic. Like, I was thinking about this this morning and I was just like, in theory, this is so conceptually juicy and interesting to me. What makes a Loki a Loki?

What makes a Kang a Kang? Are you destined forever to become He Who Remains? Are you destined forever to betray, to lose to whatever as a Loki? like to set them up as foils for each other and the parallels between them, I just think is like absolutely brilliant and then in execution, not quite, at least in this episode,

getting there for me. Yes, we're on the same page there. I love that thematically. That like, this isn't about you central thrust of season one that built toward why aren't we seeing this the same way? Incredible. Like to do,

to explore that with the arch threat is riveting, you can decide not. to kill him. You can decide it would be wrong to rob him of his ability to make different choices without immediately bringing him back to the TVA. That's the thing. It's like it's too much of a rush to that. Take the handbook from him. You know, like, why is, why did we throw the handbook back over our shoulder and let him have it again? I know. And it's also like, yeah, we want everybody to have free will and to get to prove that they're different people. But we do know it is canon that these guys started on

multiversal war. It's a data point we can't ignore. Oh, man. But what makes a loki a loki? You know what I mean? Like, Loki's caused destruction. So it's tough for you well. Is it that we always lose? Is it that we always conquer? Yeah. I love those discussions. I have more conversation. If this had been a conversation about that instead of just to let's get to the next plot point, it's a completely different experience. And it feels, and I don't want to lay this at any one person, but like, when we're, we're we talk, when I talk about the very talented Michael Waldron, Jeff Loveness, Eric Martin, porting over of Rick and Morty writers into the MCU, and how in some cases, like I think in some parts of Multiverse Madness, in some parts of Quantum Media, and some parts of the season so

far, you get that sort of antique Rick and Morty adventure of the week 20 minute episode sort of vibe. Whereas Loki's season one, because it was Waldron plus Martin plus Heron, you know, you got something a bit more soulful and less antics seeming. And so I think when we're

trying to do something that feels so antic as like the slapstick chase onto like the Ferris wheel or whatever feels like, I'm like, that's not what we loved about season one of Loki. And to me it feels like a mistake. And

Like, you know, or you get like Dr. Strange zooming through all the different multivor. You know, like there's just these moments that I'm like, this works as a cartoon. I'm not shitting on Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty is a brilliant cartoon, but like is that whole vibe what we want to pour it over into the MCU or just like the best parts of it, you know. I really like that word, soulful. I think that's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, it's like the key lampai, Joe. Yeah, antics, but you need the soul in there.

You got to get the mix of ingredients right, you know? You're saying this is like a wobbly neon green pie and you want something a little more authentically Floridian. The Floridians, you all, y'all didn't have emails last week, and I just want to shout out, I'm sorry, to all the Floridians who wrote in, absolutely incensed. Outrage. By the poor representation of their, I don't know, state pie. Is that a thing that exists? God, I hope so. So it's time for that trip to the Ferris wheel.

It's time for some recruitment. It's time for some haggling. It's time for a lot of encounters out in the throughway here. Ravona approaches Victor. He is like immediately smitten. It's very clear. Looms among us. Indeed.

Gagumatha ra. Dazzling. Always. So beautiful. Even after being dropped to the surface of Lake Michigan, while merrily snoozing in a lifeboat. Still, resplendent. They're interrupted by the Patriots, including the robber baron, prominent figure in this episode, trying to strike a deal. Everyone wants to loom. And this is where we get the setup for the partnership rift that comes

with Victor and Rivona, because the proposal here is, I was thinking more along the lines of a partnership. No, I don't do partners. And it's not just what he says, because ultimately he ends up accepting the thousand bucks from this guy. This is part of the con, but it's like you could read this as a tactic, we see something on his face that is sincere in this moment, just as when he pulls away from Ravona, let's go of her hand. There's a reaction, like a visceral reaction to the idea of partnership. Yeah, and that's what feels very King the Concord. Yes. It's fueling an OB theory that I'm excited to discuss in just mere moments, actually, when he brings up the correspondence with the author. I have a

thought to throw your way. Loki accidentally steps on somebody's toes and calls him a clown and then Loki magics him into a pig pen and broad daylight. And everyone at the fair is just like another attraction. Great stuff. Oh man. Rivona though, she's working through it in real time. She's like, this is the guy? This is the one? And Miss Minutes says with our help, he'll be all he's meant to be. So Miss Minutes, she's just out here like eat shit free will. Order. No chaos, order only. Well, Ms. Minutes is looking for a little bit of chaos, as we'll get to later. With our help, he'll be all he's meant to become.

Oh, man, Miss Minutes, wild stuff. We get our reunion. The hotly anticipated reunion between Mobius and Rivona here. Amusing, like, a moment where Victor's like, do you guys all know each other? Ravona says, colleagues, really, I can barely remember after Mobius says old friends, brutal, tough, painful. I mean, it reminds me of my favorite Gugumathara line delivery, which we got, I think, in the

previously on, which is when Sylvie asked her what was my, you know, my nexus event, and she's like the cruelest delivery of like, I can't recall. And it's just withering. Yeah. Ravona is Yeah. It's good to have Rvona back.

I miss Rvona. I agree. There's just an absolute It's only incredibly bizarre in a great way interruption from a guy who accosts Victor timely to say that he sold him malfunctioning mechanical trousers. We are meant to believe that these pants are supposed to make you taller. Is that your read on this? Victor sort of starts to crouch down and be like, what are you talking about? You're definitely taller.

They're working. Very wrong trousers. Very well-singromat. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So Loki obviously is trying to work. Victor, you know, I never, I never doubted. But the way that he calls him a confidence trickster, the way that he identifies this, like the god of mischief calling you a confidence trickster.

Well, a trickster, like a confidence man, con man, like that's one thing. We've seen a lot of lost. We know Sawyer. Like, we understand a conman, but to call him a trickster when like that's Loki's archetype is to just drive home that whole, like, it's praise, but to drive home that whole, like their foils of each other concepts. pretty brilliantly. Yeah.

Well, another foil would like to hang out at the fair as well. Sylvie's here. B-15 films in. She wants some cracker jacks.

Sylvie would love a crackerjack. Sylvie also has a trash palette. Again, my diet is the same as Sylvie's and Mobius. By the way, cracker jacks are delicious.

I mean, yes. I don't know. We don't have occasion to have cracker jacks very much. I can't remember that. But who doesn't like a caramel-coated popcorn with some peanuts in the mix, right? Yeah, and like a little toy in a cardboard box.

That's right. Yeah, wonderful. Yeah. The little moment here where a B-15 notes that there's a really weird tempad reading, this is like yet another moment where our tension has been drawn in this season to he who remains his tempad, which Sylvia is using being distinct in some way. What are this like ping for you? What do you think they're setting up here? Oh, yeah.

I think you're right that we should like have our eye on it, have our eye on all the little like technological details that crop up. I think you and Rob, but I identified one last week, though I can't recall exactly what it is. But I just want to shout out that I don't think this is best use of WOMMEMasaki as Hunter B-15. Like she is so phenomenal.

She was great in season one, even better in Lovecraft country, great and everything she does. And I just think that she's been given like a pretty thankless role so far this season. And I would like to see more. Please. Thank you. I agree.

Those are people, those are lives Last week was Not up to snuff Sylvie pulls out the signature move right away Let's just kick Loki and Victor Right into a Ferris wheel. What do you call us?

You called a car? What are the things on a Ferris wheel called? Carriage? Car. So these are like Carriagey like. Beefy cars. Do you like a Ferris wheel?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I do. I've never had a bad Ferrisville experience. I had a bad... I told you the story of the time I took the zipper at the County Fair, right? I don't think so.

Have you ever been on the zipper? Probably like once or twice when I was a kid, not in ages. Yeah, the zipper for folks who don't know, it's like this big long, looks like a... The dipping dip in Fun Dip, right? A lot of Fun Dip. And it moves and also the individual... cars that are on it, like three things are moving at once. And I was having a not great time

with whoever I was riding that with in sixth grade, in Brin County Fair. Just a person I didn't really like, and I was also just like bumping up against my own, like, freight. And then a large bolt flew into the cage that we were in that the person I was with was like actively trying to spin or whatever. And I was just like, oh. Oh, my God. I learned something today about the Marin County Fair rides. That's horrifying. But I've never had a bad Ferris wheel experience.

No, love a Ferris wheel. They're usually kind of like slow and sedate and sort of, you know, gentle as they go. And this is much more, apparently, I just found out this week that this is like the, this is the first Ferris wheel ever was at the Chicago Rules Fair. So this is the invention made by someone named Ferris. The invention of the Ferris Wheel. that's why they're like these big trams versus like a little thing that you sit in. And it reminds me much more like the London eye where you're like all standing and like, yeah, you're all like standing in a thing versus, you know,

cuddle up next to someone and enjoying a. So Sylvie exploded one of the cars on the first Ferris wheel. I mean, I guess it was on a branch timeline, but even so, we know those are people. Those are lives. Classic Sylvie move, honestly. Yeah, a lot of blowing shit up from Sylvie. once again. I love the fashion

mullet, by the way. Oh yeah, yes, thank you. Give us some thoughts on this because we were expecting a pantheon wigwatch last week. 10-10. I mean, it's not a wig. It's her hair.

I think it looks fantastic. This is one of the great parts of wig watches when you get to tell us it's not a wig. I would like to see it get, not to be, I guess we saw it a little bit in episode one in the elevator sequence.

But like this hairstyle, again, a very like 80s hairstyle. It's the kind of thing that, like, you would see a woman having an action movie and it would get, like, really wet with sweat. Like, I want to see it, like, all sort of, like, must and action-y. We haven't seen it, like, the full potential yet. But, like, I think it's phenomenal. Wet with sweat.

Yeah. I just want to get wet with sweat. I was trying to be in a winter's way that. It didn't sound creepy. But do you know what I mean? Like, I can just, like, you can just see the, like, anyway. I love it. It's great.

Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a tough hairstyle to pull off. Yeah, not everyone can rock that. Sophie D-Martino looks great. While wielding a green machete, no less. Yeah, great stuff. We're going to get back to Sylvie and Loki and Victor Timely and what transpires in that Ferris wheel in a moment,

but down below, we're cutting back and forth. So let's just talk about what we're cutting back to, which is Mobius and Rivona, reuniting just the two of them now, and Mobius is like, you know, it's just me. Tell me what's going on. And she has absolutely not an inch of room for this from him. Don't play the teamwork card on me.

And he's like, can I play the, you tried to kill me, card? A lot of, a lot of shit for these two to work through. He cites the TVA melting down, says they need her, says they need timely. He's the key to the loom. Once again, the loom and the urgency of the loom is like the thing driving the emotional interaction.

And this bummed me out because if we think about the last moment we saw between them, friends across time, allies to the end, shut up. That was so beautiful. And then you sent me to die what happened to you. That ripped my heart out of my chest in the finale in season one. And there are gut punches, there are gut punches to be had here between these two

that are not quite as trapped inside of the loom mechanic. But there's a lot to work through on the Ferris wheel joe. A lot. Sylvia's a lot on her mind. She's very unhappy with Loki. Victor Timely is magiced into mid-air and is just sort of hanging out, listening to all of this, picking up on some key words like TVA. It's like, oh, boy, TVA, the TVA of this guidebook.

How are you feeling about this? I would just say less in front of Victor, is what I would, this is one note I have. Another is, Sylvie says that this feels familiar, the two of them fighting over a Kang Marient. So my question to you is, is this the immediate payoff to Loki in episode one saying, I wish I had more time? Or do you, you know, and you and I were like, we feel like we're going to see Loki and Sylvie again in this moment and he's going to get the time that he wanted. So do you feel like it's this? Or do you feel like we will see yet another version of this play out this season where Loki will get the time he wanted? Or is this that moment?

Because he gets his time in this moment. Right? It's a good question. I don't know. I guess like this is this sort of what I was alluding to earlier with feeling like Loki had like made his decision and I don't totally understand what he worked through to come to this conclusion, which is like, yeah, it actually is about preserving the TVA above all else. And I think that she's like interrogating his logic in a way that is, and he interrogating hers in a way that felt fruitful. But I don't know if this is like the decisive, this is where I am moment or just like where he is now and something else will promise. to return. I don't know that I agree that he has made his decision. I think he's caught as Mobius is, as Obie is in like, what's the problem in episode one? I'm glitching through time. What's the problem in episode two? Got to find Sylvie. Got to find what docs is doing, whatever. What's the problem in episode three? Got to find the aura of this guy to help the loom. And he doesn't have a chance to be like, okay, what is the larger purpose of the TVA? In the short term, I would like us to stop blowing up timeline than killing people.

in the short term, I would like us to stabilize this loom just in case OB is right, and the destruction of the loom means the destruction of all timelines ever. And once we get all that stability, then I can think about whether or not the TVA as an organization is what's the correct way forward. But I don't believe that he is just, he's like bought in on the TVA. You know what I mean? I think he's just trying to solve these like short-term problems. And the thing that like Hedleston and Eric Martin and all these people said in these very

interviews that I think is interesting is that that Loki has found a family inside the TVA that Mobius and B-15 if she were actually a character and like all these other people are this like newfound family for him the same way that like Sylvie has found her little like newfound family in Oklahoma right with like Jack and all her regulars and stuff like that you know what I mean and so I just think it's interesting you know that they're like

these two like you're destined to be alone oh they thought they found family in each other no they've they've experienced this rift they're not together but they're sinking into these ideas of this is what's worth preserving this is what's worth fighting for are these people right then we talked about this a lot we talk about like laura the rings like the shire like what's worth defending right and for sylvie it's a mcdonalds in oklahoma because she's like this is the ordinary life that i've been craving and for Loki, it's like, here's Mobius, who feels like, it feels like home to me, you know, sort of thing. And I think that more than the institution of the TVA is what Loki is fighting for, you know, in this, in this moment. Mobius needs his help, so he's going to help

Mobius, right? I think that's what we're talking ourselves into and what we hope is true and less what is like the substance of the scene so far. I think that the, I think it's why my favorite scene of the season was the conversation between Loki and Mobius over the Keeline Pie in episode two where they talk, where Loki was like trying to encourage his friend to think about living his life differently, right? And like making a different choice, because that's the beauty of their relationship and that's what they've always been able to do and unlock for each other. And that's what living inside of that found family is for. And if we had more moments where Loki was saying what you're beautifully saying, which is like,

what he said to Sylvie at the end of last season, like, I just want you to be okay. If we had textual evidence of like, I just want Mobius to be okay. I just want Sylvie to be okay. Like, it's all wrapped inside of, and I agree, I don't think he's made his final decision either. I mean, it's the third episode of the season.

But the now problems to use your app's terminology have like subsumed the ability to reflect in the, way that I think has unlocked the real poignancy in the show previously. So like, there are moments even inside of this conversation that give us like opportunities for insights like the ones that you're sketching out, right? Like, even the fact that Sylvie is here, you know, we, we were, I think, really moved by the Stinger in the premiere of this season where she says, like, I want to try everything. And she's just so overcome by finally. having the opportunity to just like live life, to not be on the run, to not be on the hunt,

yes, to choose and to like forge the thing that she wants to make for herself. And so when she says, when you showed up out of nowhere to ruin my life, like it's fucking heartbreaking. That was beautiful, right? Because it's about what has happened to them and between them and what they have done to each other. But when he immediately goes into that same loom, TVA logic, I think that it's apparent that he hasn't made his achieved final clarity because the thing he's saying it doesn't actually quite track with his originally stated fear.

You know, like the fact that he's trying to say to her, no, because she's like, do you only do care about anything but the TVA, which was very funny? And he's like, I do, right? I care about you, I'm paraphrasing here. And like the life that you want to live and protect and preserve. But if you want to protect all of those timelines, all of those branches, we need to fix the loom.

So this is where heart and, like, plot come together. But then I found myself thinking, like, well, okay, so Loki wants to preserve and and this gets to your larger point about, like, what maybe, what breakthrough he needs to work toward. And again, we're only halfway through the season. So I don't think we need to have had that yet. But we're also already halfway through the season. So to have made very little progress from episode one is, like, a little concerning.

we can preserve these branches. We can fix the loom. Rebuilding the TVA starts with rebuilding the loom. And we can make this place better and hopefully we can do it together. And she even says to him, like stopping that place from being destroyed and fixing it are two very different things, right?

His fear, the thing that he wanted to pause and think about in the finale, the thing that he recounted for Mobius in episode one of season two, was the return of the multiversal war. Like, and all of those branches mean more kings, many kings. It means war. So he wants to protect and preserve the branches.

That's lovely. I hope they find a way to do that. I hope they find a way to repurpose and reshape the TVA to ensure that these people can live their lives and the free will can flourish. But doesn't doing that mean allowing those kings to pop into existence? Like, what is Loki actually trying to achieve? That feels like the big fire problem that you need to focus on once you've put out the little fires everywhere. You know, and it's just like, I think when you get this line from him, and I want to talk about this for a second, all great points. I love talking to you about literally anything. But like when he said to her last week, it broke my heart actually.

When he said to her last week, this is bigger than the TVA, this is about everything, you like it here, you like this place, you've made a home, right? The way he said home. It hurt my feelings so much because it hurts his feelings so much that she would, rather work at a McDonald's in Oklahoma than within 10 feet of him, you know? And then he says it again in this week's episode. He says, I know you just want to be left alone to live a life on your branch. I understand that. But if the loom fails and the TVA is destroyed, there won't be a life to go back to you, not

for you, not for anyone. We can't fix it without him. So again, it hurts him. There's like he's trying to be selfless and supportive. There is also, and I think Tom is doing a really good job with this. a gentle strain of bitterness that, like, you want to be left alone. You want nothing to do with me. I get it. Devastating. Devastating. You'll take your lunch break to talk to me, but that's it. Yeah. Yeah. But if you want to live your gorgeously mulleted life in Oklahoma, we need to fix this,

you know? And again, I just think he's focusing on the small fire and doesn't feel like he has time to focus on the big fire that is Kang in the Multiversal War. And that that is just something he needs. needs more time to figure out. And whether or not that's short-sighted, but I just don't know a solution out of it. This is something that feels like the plot has strangled him into of like he can't. Yes. I agree. Yes.

Which is unfortunate. The look on his face when he saw her at the register last week. Devastating. Absolutely devastating. The spark of hope alive in us is like the enthusiasm on her face. when she saw him in the elevator in the future and says, there you are. Yes.

Yes. Not like, there you are, but like, there you are, right? So like, yeah.

You know, it's coming. Yeah, and they've broken each other's hearts. Like, they've let each other down in some way. It's very sad. It's very sad.

And she's like, his sadness, I think that the little bit of resentment there that you're identifying is important, but like his sadness is mostly manifesting in that, like, how can I make it up to you or still help? And hers is just rage and like real anger and like maybe even more than that like just

frustration, right? It gets back to that, why aren't we seeing this like the same way exchange that they that they had? And she was kind of like, because we're not the same. Loki was the why aren't we seeing this the same way? And now she's like the why aren't we seeing this the same way? Like when she brings up the guidebook and says you weaponized him, Renslayer sent him on a path that he wasn't meant for.

Like she can't shake. And this is an interesting thing for her character because she knows on some level that her choice, her free will, the thing she was seeking ushered this possibility into existence. But it's interesting.

I was like, that's so unfair to lump, to lump Loki in with Ravona and the TVA large. Like, that's not, like, she has yet to distinguish his agenda from that agenda. When he and Ravona are completely cross-purposes here,

Ravona in pursuit of order, him in pursuit of chaos. She's in though the TVA is rotten, and there's no way that you can talk me into a version of this that is acceptable headspace. So, like, it's an automatic handwave, right? You didn't give him the book. You didn't set him on the path,

but you're going to take them back. You're trying to protect them and save them and use him. One and the same, even if it isn't. I agree with you. That's not a, Fair lumping in. Eric Martin in an interview with the New York Times identified, you know, the order versus chaos theme of the season.

Then he says, and then a power vacuum. What happens in a power vacuum? I think, like, the overarching concept of season two is you break it, you buy it. That's what happened at the end of season one. They broke the system. So now they own this nebulous thing, and it needs to reform and become something new. So I just think it's interesting because, like, when your assessment, and you and Rob are such astute scholars' story

that I think it's foolish of me probably to disagree with you. But your assessment of like Loki is wrong and Sylvie is right is just not something that I agree with, even though I think it's possible that Loki is barreling towards something incorrect. I'm just not, I don't think it's as easy as saying Sylvie is. right and Loki is wrong, do you know, at this point? Yeah, I don't either. I think that they both have real flaws and, like, fallacies and limitations in their logic

and their headstrong people who have spent most of their lives, like the thing that was magical about their connection is the rarity of finding some sort of, like, shared purpose and understanding with another person. So, like, their defining experience ultimately is feeling alone, like feeling like the loser, right? And so I think that I don't think it's easy and cut and dry or that Sylvia is completely right. I definitely don't think Sylvie is completely right. I think Sylvie going on a murder quest. Obviously, that's not where she ends the episode.

To basically commit the very sin that she tried to stop you who remains from committing is like utterly tragic. And like she is so blinded. And she calls her her vengeance and her thirst for a crippling in this episode. Like I think she is so waylaid by the need to avenge something that defined every step of her life to this point, that she can't actually allow herself to be happy. Like, the time, to see her back are ready in this space of, like, wielding a blade and that just utterly, like, shaken, distressed visage is, like, really upsetting. I think that Loki similarly has, like, a noble intention and a good heart and a desire to

find new purpose in a way that is actually beneficial, to your point from earlier, to the people that he loves. I think it is messy. It wouldn't be interesting if it weren't. Burned with like mundane purpose. Yeah, like let's just fix a thing and make sure it works.

That's like so interesting to see the character do that. I think that like the real success of season one to me was that like the character would have a conversation with Mobius or with Sylvie and like in some way then with himself and would say out loud like the illusion conjured by the week like would make a breakthrough, would realize something about himself. And I'm waiting with the TVA thing. I'm just like I think ultimately if they move toward figuring out how to preserve,

fix the loom so that they can protect or try to protect all of the branches and turn the TVA, repurpose it into a body that fights for the preservation of spaces in which people can exert their free will, that's really cool and interesting. But so far, it's just like line after line about how the loom needs fixing or, oh, my God, a variant might spark a war. And I'm like, the reason that that messiness and that the chaos in the sea of order is so compelling with the character in season one is because they interrogate. those ideas. So, like, is Locke, I'm concerned that Loki's making a mistake. I don't necessarily think he has. I just, like, you know, this was what we talked about last week, like, that question of,

is there any version of the TVA in any way that really can exist in harmony with true free will? Because, like, any kind, if it's controlled or maintained free will, then it's, like, definite. not free will. And I think that's where it can be fun to, like, debate and discuss whether we think that's, like, accurate or reasonable. When Sylvie says stuff like that to Loki, I want them to, like, talk about it for 20 minutes, not just, like, have to rush to the next thing because the loom's going to explode. That's all. I agree with you. Love free will. Love a, love a debate about free will and versus destiny versus prophecy versus whatever. I will say, I was really hoping that we would get to see Loki and Mobius ride the bike. We do. We do.

very briefly. We see them like, we see them pull up, pull up and get off of it. You know what I wanted, though? I wanted it to be like another version of Get Help where he's like, I'm not doing it. And then we get to see Get Help like in full. Like I wanted to see him climb on. I wanted to see them pedal. I wanted to see moments where it's like you're not navigating the thing the right way. You're like you're getting Cracker Jack Presidoo all over the handle. I just... I could have watched them cycle all the way to Wisconsin, honestly. Oh, man. Truly. Would it have taken longer than the... Well, we'll save a British geography corner. I was going to say that in the boat moving in the wrong direction, but we'll save it. Joanna, I've got something to show you. You're going to love it. It's a refrigerator chair. And don't worry, nothing has ever happened in the history of Marvel to alarm or concern you before when a Kang variant draws our attention to a chair. I'm sure everything's fine.

You run out of our nose that you want. Yeah. This exists. Yeah. I want this one, though. There was something like I liked about like the old timey. Like you want the dry ice to like come out of the side of the chair. When I see new like modern furniture that has like a lot of like plugs and like heaters and

coolers and stuff and I get very alarmed. It like just feels like it's going to like I just, it's not for me. But this is like I need this. Oh, an old timey contraction that's like going to spark. Yeah. You can get the cushion temperature to 40 degrees. All right. Let's do a gift exchange.

Okay. I'll gift you. of terribly dangerous turn to the last century fridge chair. You gift me a pianitaire in Chicago and I think that's an even even train. Yeah, you prefer this to the

I thought frankly fantastic lab in Wisconsin. That space is incredible. Well, the thing about a pianitaire is that it implies you of both. That's true. That's true. You're right. It's just your little weekend getaway. Yeah, you don't have a pianitaire

without an estate in the country. I'll take both. Oh, boy. This is really when we start to glimpse the Miss Minutes jealousy in full in this stretch. This is just wonderful. She's so... The number of times we saw scoffs in the subtitles, the rest of the episode is just remarkable. Animation of her eyebrows.

I just loved her. Is she Ravona's helper? Frankly, how dare you? She's a fully conscious AI entity, Joanna? calls her singular Giving her some hope Giving her some hope Victor's like

If you give a mouse a cookie If you give Yeah then it asks to fuck it A ghost clock That again And the men I've boys pointed that out This out Victor is in no way Surprised to see

But may happy read about her In the handbook Yeah there's a lot in that There's a lot in the guidebook Yeah A lot Ravona explains, per Victor's request, what is going on. There's a version of you created by the TVA that do God's murdered.

Lots of new timelines and each of them gives birth to countless versions of you. And his response is not, what do you mean? I'm freaking out. He goes full. This reminded me so powerfully of half-blood prints. He goes full Tom Riddle at the orphanage. Looking at his hands, I knew I was different. I knew I was special always.

I knew there was something. I was like, oh no! These were the biggest villain alarm bells in the entire episode to me. Oh, my God. Have I told you my story of the Tom Riddle Headstone in Edinburgh? I don't think so. I love to talk about Scotland. Tell me about it.

There's this graveyard. in Edinburgh where J.K. Rolling drew some of the names that she uses in Harry Potter for she used to stroll around and there's a headstone that says Tom Riddle on it. And it is so, it is such a popular destination

for the Potterheads. Like the cemetery, like that they were just like causing this like muddy like disaster, the path to that gravestone. So the, the graveyard has to like, had to build, when I was there, was in the midst of building, like, a paved walkway to this gravestone to, like, preserve the structural integrity of there.

To avoid, like, people falling into other. Yeah. So it was planks. It was planks by the time that I got there. And I think it's, like, cobbles now or something like that. But it was just a couple years ago. It was right before the pandemic. My friends and I were there.

It was, and my friend Amy knew about this. She had seen it. She used to be a student there. And she was going to, like, show us. it was the dead of night. And she was like, let's wander. I was like, or I could pull up the phone and I will Google where this headstone is, so we're not wandering around a darkened graveyard.

But there are a bunch of other tourists around, not a bunch. There were some other tourists around. And it was kind of clear that we were all there for the same reason. So we found it first because I was like, I don't want to wander. Let's look it up on my phone. So my friends and I are like standing in front. front of the, and because we were standing there and talking about it, this little pack of young, like, French kids who were there also looking for it, sort of got excited and, like,

followed where we were, right? So as we walked away from, like, I don't know, just looking at this grave, someone says Tom Riddle on it, we hear this French girl go, oh, like Thomas Riddle in French, and she was, like, so excited. So any time I hear Tom Riddle out of my head, I go, Tomaridell. Okay, that's a more heartening story than I thought that was heading toward you. like falling into an open grave or something. No. I was worried.

I did not fall down in that dark graveyard because I had a sense to be scared. Oh, man. Tom Ridnell. Carlos, don't cut that out. Is an important side story. Oh, boy. Joe, Ms. Minutes has some stories of her own, including about her. Even before the TVA or her, you created me.

worked together at the end of time. I'm here because I know what a great man you can become. So any little kernel of Miss Minutes' backstory and Miss Minutes, he who remains origin story is a precious thing for us. We have an interesting moment right after this for considering Rvona's motivations

because there's a fun little Mrs. Miss moment where he's just like clearly trying to sauce out if she's married. Great stuff. Super smooth. And she says she just wants stability. for the TVA. So Mobius, like, we'll have a moment later. He's like, like, what happened to the pursuit of free will?

Order. She tells them the limbs in rough shape, which is just like, yeah, we can assume that it'll come up in every conversation at this point. And as they're discussing, the side switching, the well-documented behavioral trait, there's a heavy knock at the door, but he can't just go. He has to get his, quote, latest prototype. And so it's on to Wisconsin.

Victor Timely secures them passage on a vessel that is crossing Lake Michigan to go from Chicago to Wisconsin. Is there anything that you would like to share with us about this? Welcome to Geography Corner TM with listener Alex TM. This email cracked me off so much. Alex writes, okay, so I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and now live in Wisconsin. I can't get over the geography of this episode. I'm sure the city has changed a lot between 1893 in my lifetime. But you know what hasn't changed?

The location of Lake Michigan. And when someone in Chicago refers to the lake, that is 1,000 times out of 1,000, the only lake they could possibly be referring to. Timely says his lab is in Wisconsin. But then he also says it is across the lake. Wisconsin is very conspicuously, not the state across, quote, the lake or any other lake from the city of Chicago. That would in fact be Michigan.

But then when they embark on the boat to said lab, we see the city passing by on the starboard side of the ship. That means east was to their right, which means they were heading south, which means they were headed to Indiana? What in the temporal shifting fuck is going on here? Well, I'm pretty sure the real life answer is that this show was made by people in California who are woefully unfamiliar with the Midwest.

My in universe head cam and is that the lab's timing, wimmy property is allowed to phase between all three states as part of his previously mentioned elaborate tax dodging scheme. Historic email. Alex, incredible email. What in the temporal shifting fuck is an incredible phrase that I have highlighted and we will try to be using. Yeah, let's incorporate that into the future coverage.

It's just very clear. And we appreciate Alex bringing this to life. that the people involved in making Loki have not watched enough Big Ten football. I don't know what else there is to say about it. It's apparent. Even I know, listen, even I know that south of Chicago along the lake is Indiana. I know that. Wisconsin is beautiful, by the way.

I also know that Oklahoma and Texas are kissing cousins on the map. On the map. Yes. As I sent a photo team and Rob. Yes. I think we know that they're next to each other on the map, but I think Rob was wounded by the implication about interactions. My favorite thing that happened in that exchange is that Rob was like,

that's like saying the Hatfields of McCoys exchange Christmas cards. And then I pointed out that the Hatfield and McCoys are literally kissing, if not also cousins. Anyway. But Red River. I mean, they would never. They would simply never. I don't know what it means, but I look forward to understanding.

Joe, we get some great glimpses of the pages of the. TVA guidebook here because Victor while moving the wrong way across Lake Michigan is showing Robona and Ms. Minutes, some of this. Great moment where he's piecing together, oh, it was you, you dropped this off and Ramona's like I did. Miss Minutes is like,

you brought it to him the way the postman brings the post. Like, give me credit. This was an astonishing moment. I loved this. I loved this. It's going to be interesting to watch these two who are reunited at the end of the episode, work together. He says, this book has defined the course of my life, which is what Sylvie was worried about

and what Sylvie was observing. This is the like every step you took to get here, lamentous, the void, I paved the road. Impact for him. And then this is where he talks about OB. He opens to the author page. There's that photo, the one that Casey wanted OB to sign last week. He talks about our correspondence. And this just felt like, again, very conspicuous.

Our attention is drawn once again to OB having crafted, written the guidebook. But this aspect of correspondence, because Victor's adding his sketches, his ideas, his thoughts, but also he's absorbing. He's learning. What is in here already is guiding him. Do you think after this and also what we learn in this episode about Victor's feelings about partnership, that the reason he is willing to cut Rvona loose when she suggests a partnership, but he's willing to work with Miss Minutes

until the come on later, of course, and really like seems to relish the idea of interacting. What is correspondence, if not in some way, the sharing of ideas with others, with OB? Like if OBB is also an AI that he made like Miss Minutes, then it's just an extension of himself. and he doesn't seem like someone who would mind partnering with himself. Does that seem more likely to you after this or no?

I don't love Obie as AI theory, but maybe. I like, I more like the theory, I mean, because we conspicuously saw a number of different motifs, this idea of the three timekeepers. And I like this idea of that being Obi-Ravonna and some version of Kang and him just mind-wiping them. because he doesn't do partners. You know what I mean? I use you to build what I needed and now. Yeah.

I mean, I suppose it could be AI. The OB villain theory, great video from Jess, by the way, is an interesting one. I want to do a quick response to Rob made this great point. One of my favorite things to look out for is like a casting spoiler. When Rob and I cover poker face, this was like a big part of covering poker face. It's a very law and order thing. And Rob's point is like, okay, this is QA Kwan's, like, first role since his Oscar. Like, you're not going to just have him show up to be, like, basically data from Goonies.

And timeline-wise, he had not won his Oscar when he was cast in this, right? Like, in that New York Times interview with Eric Martin, what he said about casting in this role, as he says, that was Kevin Feige. He saw him and everything everywhere all at once, and Kevin fell in love with. OB on the page. I think he just saw him. And then he's like, this is our OB. He'll just step right in and be perfect for this. That quote feels very un... I feel like these writers cannot resist. If there's a twist coming, they'll be like, oh, Obie's a very complicated character. Obie's this, you know, but he's just like, Obie's super sweet. And Kevin Fregey, who loves an 80s blockbuster, wanted to put data slash short round in the role. I'd love to him and everything

everywhere all at once as we all did. So, like, that's sort of, as why I tend towards just like, OB is OB, you know? I still, I think I'm in that camp, too, of just really, him having to confront at some point a past that was ripped out of his mind. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean to think about the only thing that really compel, the only other thing that really compels me on the AI front is just the reveal that he never sleeps. It's like, concerning to think of him working for 400 years. And then, also just think how Pissmas Minutes would be if a different day I got a body. We got this fun email from listener Tim, which doesn't necessarily convince me one way

another, but is, thank you, Carlis, but it is like an interesting, talking about the name Mobius versus the name or a Boris. Again, these are both comic book names. But Tim says, both of these are symbols of infinity with very different connotations. A Mobius strip is a loop that technically only has one side, and it goes around and around. you never get off the loop true, but it is a whole complete and stable. By contrast, an auroboros

is a picture of something that's being consumed by itself. It looks infinite and unending, but it's actually not sustainable. It can only ever lead to an end, a death, a total consumption, and the only question is when. The valence is so much darker, more sinister than a Mobius.

I think that fits the tone of season two versus season one. Season one is about a much more hopeful, redemptive journey for Loki as a character up until those final devastating minutes, season two in its higher moments feels like a heavier, more painful grappling with how you try to live with noble intentions

in a world when all the choices are various flavors of bad. A great email from Tim, but I like that idea of thinking about what's the difference between Or Boris and a Mobius. And I still don't think that Obe is a bad guy though. Yeah, I don't really...

That would be a tough one. So sweet. He really just doesn't want everyone to die also. I mean, Kiwi Puan is capable of this, absolutely, but, you know, we'll see. Yeah, that's a really interesting email. Like, I, it's interesting to think about, okay, when we talk about something like rebirth,

can't really have rebirth unless you have destruction. Ragnarok, baby, Ragnarok. Oh, boy, good old Ragnarok. We have a moment in the thumbing through the guidebook where Victor is showing what looked to be like doodles and sketches of an orb-like entity, presumably what he picks up from the lab later. We'll talk about that more later.

Talking about like this thing that he needs, the key to understanding and manipulating time. A lot of attention paid to this in the episode. We'll have some theory corner fodder coming soon. He gives Revona a flower, Joe. Paper flower. Hope it didn't come from the guidebook. I don't know how many other pages he had yet.

This was before he collected all of his other paper from the Wisconsin lab. Miss Minutes, the jealous rage in this stretchier is just astonishing. This is the partnership exchange. And Miss Minutes, she pounces. So how are you reconciling currently, based on what we know so far, this response to the idea of partnership and Ravona's high hopes for it with what we heard in episode one of this season, Ravona and he who remains on the recording that Loki discovered where clearly there were partners.

Ravona Renssela, Rensler, you're quite a marvel, we're proud to lead with you. He made a difference in this war. Thank you for being in my team for us for all time. And she says always. I mean, I feel like that's something he probably said to her right before he fucking wiped her mind is what I feel like happened. So you're not into maybe a great love story here. Just another manipulation. To quote Sylvie, another manipulation.

Well, I think it's important, again, as we. a really popular theory this week is that Ravona Renslayer is somehow a Kang variant, which like, I don't like personally. But if we are, and we mentioned this in episode one, if we already think about Ravona and Victor slash Kang

versus he who remains one of version of them, as a foil of Sylvia and Loki, and this idea of like, this idea of a Loki always betrays or a Loki always switch asides or whatever, But that Loki and Sylvie need to figure out a way to make a different decision from the decision that Kang and Ravona made. And the one that Kang and Ravona made will always be one of betrayal of like power, pursuit of power. Right?

Yeah. Because she, she will talk about this. Her desire for order is also desire for control and power. Yes. And Sylvie says that to her damage. It's power that you want. Yeah. Yeah.

I like that a lot. Let's go watch the Badgers. Let's head to Wisconsin. Also, what else does it say here in the notes, Mallory Rubin? The header for this section is Let's Go Badgers. Also, would you like to fuck a clock? Which I think is a good summation of what we're about to discuss. Incredible.

Yes. Carlos. Victor timely hurries into his, again, just beautiful, beautiful lab. This was an incredible, incredible setting. Lots of clocks, Joe. Lots of clocks up on the wall. and unleashes Miss Minutes, gatherings. I loved like the little, okay, like I'm jumping up.

I've got some papers nestled here, all the things that he's grabbing and compiling and needing to collect. Miss Minutes says, you're so much like him. And then this is where he picks up the orb, the metal orb. And this could just be the throughput multiplier. It's possible. But there is so much attention. drawn to this moment? Here's the exchange. Is that? That's what Ms. Minnitz says. This is it.

Timely replies, the culmination of my life's work. Just wonderful, Ms. Minnitz says. Yes. Do you want to hit this here? Do you want to save it to put a pin in it until Theory Corner? In Amman in the Lost Quantumania, a film that everyone remembers perfectly in all the moments of it, there is a multiversal engine core, the power source of the time sphere. That's what I feel like. it has to be. It's concerning. Though I don't know, I mean, which is, again, another connective tissue between Victor Timely and Kang, the conqueror, right? But I don't know then how Eric Martin could play to be in his own sandbox if the McGuffin here is the, you know, macuffin they need to fix from quantumania.

But that's, if I had a guess, that's what I would say it is. Yeah, I think it's a good guess at this point. It really drew our attention to it. I am concerned. I am concerned. He's ready to bounce. Miss Minutes is like, what if we stayed? This was so wild.

Like, they are actively being hunted by multiple parties, but she is so horny. She, it's like, this is my moment right now, when everyone's definitely about to barge through the door. I support both women's rights and women's wrongs. But Ramona, Miss Minutes and Sylvie, all make big miscalculations on this episode. It's a tough look for all the women, as far as I can tell. No one is reading the room correctly.

And Miss Minutes just like deciding this is her moment. I was like, babe, you got all the time and space. Play the slow hand. She's just feeling those gears churning. Joe, this is it. Gotta go for it. Like a well-oiled machine. I did love the way her blush.

She's like, I was worried. You wouldn't come with me. You might prefer Rivona. She starts to blush, and then that turns back into the orange animation for the face of the clock. That was really wonderful. Ten of ten-to-ten-no notes in her performance here.

Incredible. Incredible. We're just treated to some of the most astonishing moments in the history of television here. This is so good. This is so entertaining. Eat shit, Grueger. This is it.

You'll never hear me say that. Never. I know. He created her to just, you know, have someone to play chess with at first. Again, who among us, Joe? That's what they call us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then he saw more. Gave her autonomy to write her own programming. It's never gone wrong before Joanna. Allow her to have wonson whims. It's never backfired on anybody. She's like, I can't do that, Hal. This is his version of bringing Victor timely back to the TVA. Like, we've just got a lot of, well,

the consequences of my own actions, meme fodder in this episode. The rest of what Miss Minutes says, we cannot possibly hope to paraphrase or summarize, we need to hear this in full, Carlos, if you would do us the genuine pleasure. More than France, the war, the TVA, the eons after. I alone was by your side.

But there was one whim you never allowed me. Why didn't you allow me a real body? Well, that wasn't me. If I had a body, we could truly lead together. Yes, that's something I, I, I, don't know how to do. You never even tried. With all your powers and all your abilities,

you just kept me as your thing, your computer, your toy. Instead of what I could have been, your girl. Victor, what are you doing? Put that down. Don't do this.

Word, team, you need me alone. This is flawless, and I hope they win Emmys. sound design on your girl. I mean. Incredible. Her face glitching into the mannequin head.

Oh, my God. Horrifying. Ms. Minutes is she still horny cartoon clock who wants to fuck her maker. And I love that for her. Same. And I think she deserves that. Oh, man. Playing chess for eons or whatever else the fuck she had to do.

Yeah. Move over six. another AI wants to take human form and fuck. So scary. I love her. This was just the best. Absolutely wonderful. I don't know how much Miss Minutes will get moving forward, but after this, I, on the one hand, I'm like, more Mobius and Loki, more Loki and Sylvie, but also like, erotic thriller with Miss Minutes who says that.

She's going to boil everyone's rabbit in sight. Every rabbit in sight, I love her. Horny demented Miss Minutes, love it. Oh, man. This was the first thing you texted me about, about the episode. I did. I was late to the party because I wasn't home when this debuted, and I watched it. I texted Mallory, and I was like, oh, my God.

Great stuff. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about horny Miss Minutes? No. Except I hope this is not the last. I hope she does get a body.

Yeah. Same. Rvone is here. Lover's Tiff. Iconic entrance, honestly. She is holding an unstable and very dangerous pruning gun a prototype. So maybe a precursor to the timesticks that we have grown so accustomed to seeing. Very quickly after she arrives, Mobius and Loki Fargen.

I loved Mobius calling her Vone. I know. That melted my heart. I know. Simone. The nickname. That was just really good. Really good.

What did you think of this exchange? This is where we get the big speech from Ravona. This was so, like, sad and harrowing and then scary. The cost of my own happiness and my humanity. I'm order. All that matters is order versus chaos. She says the thesis of the season. I'm order.

You're chaos, right? that they need Victor for two very different reasons. One timeline versus a loom large enough to encompass all the timelines possible. This is like, when we heard Rivona, almost like imploring Mobius. Like they were obviously, there was the rift already. They weren't going to make their way back to each other in season one. But like when she said to me, it can't have been for nothing. Like her need to, this is like her glorious purpose, right?

her need to find meaning, not just in what she decides to do next, but to validate the things that she's already done, the time that she has spent, like what she has already given to this place. And I like all the different, I really like when we see, whether it's our guy Brad Wolf or Mobius, who is struggling with the idea of glimpsing when he missed, or Ravona, who was just like, everyone else went and saw her variant, right? No, I need to be sure that the way I spent my time was the right way. Like, how they all respond to this great reveal, this like shattering thing. This like wound. So interesting. Yeah. I really, I like that. How do you, how do you rationalize that like it was all for something? Yeah. I love that. And here comes, Sylvie.

Ready to blow some more shit up. We got, even I. I mean, I am not a hairflip scholar, but even I was like, the hair flip we got from Tom after they were all blasted to the ground. He had to regain it. This was wonderful. I might do, if I have the time, and I hope I do, not only like a tally at the end of the season, but like a definitive ranking. And that is, this is up there. This was, absolutely. This was really, I mean, this was like a whole.

A full flip, mood, as they say, as the kids say. as the kids say. The kids do say that. I do. I do. Sylvie goes over to Victor Timely and looms over him. And he issues his plea. Carlos, can we hear this?

Please. I haven't done anything. Oh, you will. You'll do terrible things. That isn't me. That you don't know me. You don't. No, the heart.

The heart I have a beating in my chest. I can make my own choices. I'm not the man. You think I am. Joanna. Great. Great shit. Bring Sylvie to tears.

Why? This is great stuff. Because surely she is reminded of herself as a little girl pulled out of her you know, pruned out of, or attempted to put her out of her existence of like, this is, like, what did I do? I didn't do anything. I'm just a little girl, like, playing what the, the, the phrase that I wrote down, because I'm always thinking of this, one of my top favorite Spielberg movies of all time, is pre-crime, minority report, right? Like, this is, this is, this is pruning based on pre-crime. and which is not something I had thought about when I thought about all of this in season one.

But this is here. She's trying to judge Victor Timely based on something that she presumes he will do. And this is, again, you're a Loki. Loki's always X based on behavioral patterns of behavior, as Ravona herself says earlier in this episode. So like, just fighting against that, I think this is the right thing to do, even though it is the wrong. thing to do probably to take Victor timely back to the TVA and probably not watching that closely. It is the right thing to do to not kill him here. Absolutely. Agreed. Agreed. And Sylvie having to confront that and like evolve in real time and like interrogate the potential hypocrisy of like

what does she say to he who remains, right? We broke out of your little game. And like for her to pursue that free will and the ability to define your own course and to not have people tell you who you are because of what family you were born into or what your name is or anything else, like she has to give other people that opportunity too, right? We're not all the same as our variance. We can make our own choices. If she really believes that,

if she believes in the free will for other people that she sought for herself, that she has to let him make his own decisions too, even if those decisions eventually turn him into he who remains. That's like a delicious aspect of this plot. absolutely delectable. That is the right thing that Sylvie does. Yes.

Here's the wrong thing that she does. Yeah, this is brutal. This is so brutal. So she takes Ravona. And Sylvie's, again, Sylvie's like, I don't want to be thinking about killing you all the time. It's crippling, as you already mentioned earlier we discussed this. She wants free of all of that.

then she opens a time door and kicks Rvona into the voyage. She says, power for you, isn't it? That's what you want. Let's see it at the end of the time. We'll be careful what you wish for.

Okay. Here's my note. Yeah. Here's like two things I would have done differently if I'm Sylvie. Yeah, just do? Yeah. I'm padding down Ravona and taking the tempad off of her. Obviously.

I mean, what are we even? doing here. And secondly, if I'm kicking her through a door, it's probably not to the throw room, like, but like maybe to the fucking wasteland. I can't remember, is Eliath like completely defeated or just paralyzed? They just enchanted Eliath. Yeah. I feel like Eliath is out gobbling things up again. Just like kick her out into the wasteland of infinite loki's and like deal with the deal with Eliath yourself. Don't put her into the, the heart of Kang's, He Who Remains's Palace, where all this, like, info is with the Tempad, with Miss Minnis still inside. What are you doing? With He Who Remains is a course?

What were we accomplishing here? Sylvie, you're so beautiful and smart, and this was such a bad, bad move. Can't understand why Solovely would do this. Why? Why? Horrible. Horrible. We do end on an intriguing note. after that baffling decision. You know, Sylvia told Loki and Mobius, don't make me regret this. No one was there to say other than us and every other podcaster in person covering the show.

Like, don't make you regret the thing you just did. Miss Minutes, pissed. Ravona pissed. They're together, surrounded by books and crumbling marble and a rotting corpse. And two women scorned. And access to all the files. Of all time ever.

You think that that core of the Granny Smith Apple is still there on the desk? They're very shelf stable. Well, it was foolish of him to make an enemy out of someone who knows all his secrets, Miss Minutes says. I know a really big one about you. I can tell you. But what? It's going to make you real angry. Real angry.

So two questions for you, Joe. One, is she just turning on Victor timely because he rejected her? Or has that morphed and rippled and cascaded into all of them? Including her maker. All kings always. Yeah. And what is the secret? I think this is when, with love and respect to our beloved, he's not here to defend himself, producer Steve.

Steve said on The Midnight Boys this week, he's like, well, remember that Rovona was the one listening to the, we don't know that for certain that Ravanna was the one listening to the tape. That's a conclusion and we have decided to draw, but we don't know that and we don't know when she did that, even though time doesn't work that way in the TVA. I think that's where Miss Minutes is going to take her. Miss Minutes is going to take her and play her the tape that is going to reveal to Ravona that she once was primed to be partner in the creation of the TVA and had her mind wiped.

That's, what else could it possibly be? What do you think? Yeah. I think that's the most likely. Will we get a return of the pen? The season one pen from the school? Will the pen come back into the mix? All the things that she doesn't recall.

What's the secret? I mean, again, there's a really popular she's a Kang variant theory. I just don't like it. But anything's possible in the multiverse. But I think more it's like you got betrayed, you got your mind wiped. Get ready to be pissed. One of the things that Ravona said in season one, when she and Mobius were discussing free will, was only one person gets free will, the one in charge. And like that personal of a manifestation and reminder of that idea, like, to the extent of like you're not even remembering your own life and the role that you played in all of this, that would just be brutal.

Okay, theory corner. I heard this last week. this like psycho string's new cue that Steve has created. It's scary. It's upsetting. That's our version of Miss Minutes turning into a ghost clock in the midway. Here's my new twist on the Mobius is Jack from McDonald's actually Mobius theory. I have a slightly different theory. Because I feel like I feel like we are, we feel like we have to be heading towards Mobius confronting what. his life was that he left behind, right?

And it's one thing to be like, I was a young man who worked at McDonald's. What if that's not, nothing wrong with McDonald's? What if it's not Mobius? What if that's his son? Because Sylvie says, is your mom coming to pick you up? So, like, that's his son and that's his wife, whoever his wife is. You know what I mean? And he can't go for pickup because he's riding a jet ski.

Yeah. Joe, I love this. Yeah. That just made me really sad. I have tears in my eyes. Because he's going to have to be confronted with something like very important that he was ripped away from. And if it's his, I had a son, I had a family. And like not even just I had a son, I had a family, but like I ordered fries and a apple pie and a milkshake from him.

And I didn't even know because everything that mattered to me has been taken away from me. That would be incredible. I love it. I'm in. I have no notes on the theory. It's perfect. I did think for a minute you were going to say, what if Mobius is Lee Scoresby?

Just out there in a hot air balloon. But no, I like yours better. With Hester? Oh, sweet beloved Hester. I love Hester. Man. That's a really good one. I really like that.

Great one. Again, or if Jack is just Jack, that's okay, too. Honestly. We hold these things loosely. But, you know. Any other theories? But shout out to our listener, because that theory, our listener was so early with that in episode one. And that theory is now all over the place.

So shout out to her. Incredible. It was Lauren, right? Lauren. Yeah. Great job. Split image. Wonderful.

So great. I remember how I felt when you were reading that email. It was like, oh, my God. I know. Incredible. Easter eggs. Do you have a favorite Easter egg in this? this episode.

It has to be the honor and respect paid to the great Kate Heron. Yeah. The SS Heron. The SS Heron was wonderful. Great stuff. Shout out Balder the Brave, too. But you're not really in the MCU and you don't get to be the top Easter this week either.

Tough. Eat shit, Balder. We should say that there's like strong rumors if folks don't know. But maybe if you listen to a three-hour MCU podcast, you do already know this. That there were like strong rumors that Ball of the Brave was going to. to be in a multiverse of madness as played by Daniel Craig. So, great stuff.

Maybe something we'll see in the future. Who's to say? That'll be wonderful. Whigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson. T.M. Do you wear wigs? Okay, so I thought that the Frederick Douglas wig that they put on Victor Timely was pretty great.

But we did get a listener email from Elon. So wigwatch TM with a listener Alon T.M. Who says that wig was possible until the boat seeing you see the back of it. I hate it here. I need these rich-ass companies to invest in some good wigs for black folks. So I will take our listeners note. I still remember the men and I boys talking about what they did to Chia Tullo Joe for in Multiverse of Madness. So wig watch shall resume next week.

As will hair flick, toss-flip watch on good. old loki next week. T.M. Amazing. If this episode had Netflix subtitles, Joanna, give us your subtitle. A moustachioed

Mobius crunches merrily on some cracker jacks. Mastat. It's wonderful. It's so damn sticky. Here's mine. Horny cartoon clock

glitches face onto mannequin offering sex still preview and dreaming of a time when flesh can distend wetly. I love this new bit where you wear flesh descending wetly into every single one. You know, I love an origin story. I do know. I love you. I think you're the best.

I think you're the best. Too long to go without potting. I get like, I get the shakes when we're apart too long. Anything else? Any other thoughts on Edinburgh, Graveyards, pie. Don't really tell.

Sorry, I can't laugh fully because I'm like still a little sick so I'm like wheezing and I apologize. Anyway, great times. Wonderful. Thank you to you. Thank you to the great. Carlos, you're the best.

For being on the soundboard for us. Thanks, man. Thank you as well to Arjunna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode.

Remember, It's active on the feeds right now. So pop back over here to House of R on Friday for our next Doctor WhoPod on Peter Capaldi's 12th Doctor in his three seasons. Ring averse. The Midnight Boys, Poo-Poo! We'll have their instant reaction to the upcoming fourth episode of Loki on Thursday night into Friday. Jess will have a splash page video breakdown next weekend. Right now, there's a Gen V mint edition waiting for you, and you're going to get two button matches this week.

Spidey, too. Today, Mario midweek. It's a bounty. So have a seat for a float.