House of R - 'Loki' Season 2, Episode 4 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

It's time for another deep dive into ‘Loki’ Season 2! Mal and Jo are back to discuss Episode 4, “Heart of the TVA” (7:57). They talk about the debate between Loki and Sylvie, Victor Timely’s fate, and one of the most gruesome scenes in the history of the MCU (13:10). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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restrictions apply, services not available in all areas. What if you're wrong? What if you are wrong to believe that this place can be any better? What if I was wrong to spare him? It would just be easier to burn this place down and start from scratch. Sure. Burn it down. Easy. Annihilating is easy. Raising things to the ground is easy.

Trying to fix what's broken is hard. Hope. is hard. Greetings. And welcome to House of Arr, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Pai Land, but also to our new-ish House of Our podcast feed.

Joining me today, asking me to forgive the shoddy and slapdash work. It's not to scale. She only got one coat of paint on there. She hasn't been able to carve out figures to represent all of us. She's honestly embarrassed that Victor is here to see it. It's my house of our permanent title. Co-host, New York Times best-selling author of MCU,

The Raid of Marvel Studios. Joanna Robinson. What's a bad? Babies. Oh, hi. Bally Rubin. What a joy to be here with you? Here's something that I can promise you.

Never have I ever, nor will I ever, be distracted from a task by machine-made hot chocolate. I cannot promise the same. It's never good. So why do it? It's always better than not having hot chocolate at all. Deeply untrue. Joe. we are here to dive deep into the fourth episode of Loki's second season.

But you mention the hot cocoa before we go for a little Mobius pick me up courtesy of the hot cocoa machine. Some quick programming reminders over on the ringerverse. The button mash bonanza continues. Oh wow. You will be able to find at the top of this week today, in fact, their pod. Jess and Ben's latest on Allen Week 2 and 5 nights at Freddy's. If you haven't yet listened

to the Spider-Man 2 and Mario Wonderpods, those are also there waiting for you. So catch up on all of the button mash. Goodness, it is a big game month. Double dose of midnight boys. The Baltimore accent really came out there on dose. Yeah, dose. Double dose of midnight boys.

On Thursday night, instant reaction. to Loki episode five, the penultimate Loki. And Friday, instant reaction to the season two premiere of Invincible. Speaking of which, we will also be covering the beginning of the new Invincible season. Everybody in the Ring of Verse family

is hyped about Invincible, so come back to the house of our feed at the end of this week where we will be chatting about Invincible. By the way, on the programming reminders front, if you happen to be in Los Angeles and you happen to secure a ticket, just a reminder that we have our first

ringer verse live show tonight at the Terragraph Ballroom. So if you're in LA, we hope to see you there. We are so excited to all be together in person, to be with you, to celebrate content, IP, for love of each other, nerddom, all of it. We had a staff dinner last night. And I don't know if you have a personal highlight of this dinner, but my personal highlight was one Mr. Van Lathan. holding forth about his theory about how Mario Kart is an aphrodisiac, much to the dismay of Benjamin Lindbergh at all. It was a delightful interaction. Great time. An incredible evening. Wonderful team, people. Genuinely memorable evening. Joe, it's a lot of content, a lot of pods. How can everybody follow along? Well, listen, if you want to, if you want to listen to

not one but two episodes of people you like talking about Invincible. I suggest you follow both the ringerverse and house of our. I mean, that's just basics, guys, at this point. But also, I mean, follows on social. The great Jemmy of Dinner on is doing incredible things on social, on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter, on possibly Peach. Who's to say? I can't tell you. If only.

And most importantly. And I think you know this is the most important. You're going to email us, your thoughts, your theories to hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We have like no fewer, I think, than three juicy little emails in Theory Corner this week. Like this is the time in a timey-wimey, theory-friendly show like Loki,

now is the time to make use of the email inbox because, you know, I love a theory as just, Mallory, and we'd love to hear yours. So, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Not heart of the TVA, heart of the tartis at Gmail.com, but close enough. That could have worked, though. Could it work. Final programming reminder, it's the same one as always.

It's our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot points from Loki, season two, Episode 4, heart of the TVA. Written by Eric Martin and Catherine Blair, directed, once again, by Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead, checking in at 51 minutes. Also on the table on the spoiler front? Yeah. Anything that's happened earlier this season.

Anything that happened in Loki season one. Anything that has happened at any point in the entire run of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And Marvel Comics Canon. Any show or film that involves time travel, possibly? We'll give you, like, a little morning when that's coming. Could come up. Yeah, can I say on the runtime, we were like, 25 minutes in, I think, and I did that thing where you sort of scrub over the time bar to be like, oh, my God, like, I feel like there's so much

left to do. You know, is this one of those episodes going to end in like 10 minutes from now? And I was like, oh, you're only halfway there. I was like, oh, hell yeah. So, thank you. Joe? Yes, Mal. We're also just at the beginning.

of the runtime for this podcast. We took her wrong turn. We didn't plan on coming to Pai Land, but we're here, so let's pot. Opening snapshot. Moody, moody music. Really sets the tone. Thanks, Carlos.

Joanna Robinson, quick overall thoughts on the fourth episode of the second Loki season. What did you think of this episode of TV? I will agree with the brilliant Midnight Boys. and to say that like for well specifically my guy Charles I'm going to say they didn't agree with each other so yeah yeah let me be specific um for a good amount of this episode I was quite worried um because I've had a high tolerance for the techno babble but even like my high tolerance for techno babble I think was a push to the limit tested in this episode and then also

a lot of the doc stuff specifically, I will say I was just like, I'm not, what are we doing here? I think that's maybe when I hit the time bar because I was just sort of like, why do we have time for this? I don't feel like we have time for this. We only have two more

episodes after this in the season. So some of that stuff was happening. I was like, what are we, genuinely, what are we doing? But then in the last sort of rousing minutes of the episode, you know, with everyone sort of scrambling around with the closing of certain loops that started beginning of the season. Then, of course, like, you know, a couple big punches at the end. That's also some good, like, conversations and speeches from some of our main characters about

free will and all that kind of stuff that we love to talk about. So, like, this was an extra long episode, which meant that there was both a bunch of stuff in here that I was like, do we need this? But also some really good stuff as well. So, and so by the end, it got me really. for the next two to come, I will say, is how I felt. How about you? Yeah, I think we're in a similar spot. Tale of Two, Tale of Two Episodes, Tale of Two Haves. I actually marked the timestamp where the episode turned for me into something I was really enjoying, which doesn't mean that nothing before that was charming or fun. There were little reprieves from the techno babble and the docs of it all early. And then there were still some dock stuff late,

though, including one of, I think, the most genuinely shocking and riveting sequences in Marvel history. It was, it was 18 minutes and 20 seconds in when Loki and Sylvie entered Pyeland and began to have the exact kind of conversation that I've been waiting for all season

that I was back in. The first 18 minutes of the episode are a little less than that, obviously, when you removed the previously on, etc., I was really like growing concerned as well about just how much room we had left in the episode in this season. But in the back half of the episode,

I was back in. They pulled me back in. I really enjoyed the end of this episode. And I thought it not only contained a lot of the kind of like conversations mixed with set pieces that we'd sort of been looking for on the balance front,

but just sets up a, fascinating final couple of episodes which I think we both probably wish we had a little bit more time for whether that means that this should which very much felt like a mid-season finale should have been

somehow compressed into the three episode mark and then given us three episodes of runway to go or whether we should have had an eight-episode season like whatever the math is something like we're gonna I have so many moments where I want to talk about the television series

lost have you heard of it. I've got it. You know, and just thinking about some things that we think may or may not be coming. And I was like, that's 10 episodes of lost, or you know, or something like that. Not two episodes remaining in the season sort of thing

to try to accomplish. So I don't envy the writers trying to pull off really complicated, you know, time heisty kind of plot lines with so few episodes to work with. but we shall see how it all turns out. But, but, you know, who could remain unexcited by, you know, the TVA blowing up at the end of an episode. Like, you know.

Incredible final few minutes of this episode. And we should say that literal moments, like within an hour of us sitting down to record, Marvel released a trailer for the final two episodes. So we'll probably mostly limit ourselves to talk. talking about what we see in there. In theory, corner today, we might mention,

if we mentioned a nugget or two from there before then, we'll flag that we're doing so. But some interesting glimpses of what awaits, certainly, and that got me, that got me even more excited. So,

we have a lot to cover. A lot to break down. Let's dive deep. Joe, we begin the episode, zipping through, Timeline fibers. We're back in our favorite corpse den where Miss Minutes is ready to turn

Rivona Reinslayer's soul as rotten as the Apple Corps sitting on He Who Remains his abandoned desk. Wow. And you know how shelf stable of Granny Smith is, so it's been a while. It's been a minute.

I have a question about this phrase that you've written into the notes here. You wrote favorite corpse den. Yeah. And to quote, Jared the Goblin King from The Labyrinth, the movie you will see one day. I wonder what your basis of comparison is. What are some other corpse dens that make you sure that this is your favorite one? You know, anywhere a zombie has been.

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Your local abattoir. Yeah. Hard home. Corpse dens I have known, the Mallory Rubin story. Okay. Yeah.

You know, still very fond of the Citadel at the end of time. Just seems like a great place to contemplate existence. Beautiful. Now a little breezier, a little less weather strips than it was before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I love a golden-veined marble pillar. This is a thing you know about me. You love an Ocean Vista.

You hate a crevice. I love an Ocean Vista. I love a golden-veined marble pillar. So it's just the House of Arcannon here. Mallory, real salt to the earth shit right there from you. What are the people? You know what I love? A golden vein pillar.

Miss Minutes, another thing we share in common, Joe, she loves content. She's got some ready. She's got some ready to boot up. She boots up a, in essence, video recording, a memory from Ravona's past that she does not possess of a time when she has, helped he who remains win the Time War, when she was working as his general as like his right

hand, it is the same conversation that Loki stumbled upon an audio recording form in the TVA war room back in the past in the first episode of this season. But we have something new at the beginning and we have something new at the end. So the snippet we had already heard is kind of sandwiched inside of new slices of bread. The thing that we get at the beginning that we hadn't heard before is he remains saying, so it's almost ready. And Ravona is saying a utopia at the end of time. Now, that language, utopia, it certainly makes us think of the conversation between Ravona and Sylvie in the penultimate episode of the first season when we got that the dogma states that the end of time is still being written at the timekeepers are transforming it into utopia dispensation from Rufona. and Sylvie, this is the iconic. That's nice.

Super believable. So it's fascinating to be poured it into Ravona actually experiencing a conversation about this. Would this work on you, Mallory? I am. If someone does do with gold-veined columns phrasing, would you be like to say, no. I would see through it.

But I think I would be pretty quickly tempted and compelled by the promise of Utopia. Yeah, what about you? Unlike you, I don't trust gold-veined columns. I find anyone who decorates their, you know, interior of their citadel with gold veins to be suss.

So, I don't know. If he had offered me a gray-s-knit-th apple, though, who's to say what I would have done? That's true. Yeah, we all have our weaknesses. Joe, there's something after the snippet that we had heard as well. So, Rvona says the TVA awaits our commands, shall we go? And he, Who Remain says, I'll catch up.

It's been a long road. See you soon. Have we ever heard he who remains say see you soon to someone before? Yeah, we sure have. Have we ever heard him talk about roads and pathways before? Sure have. He loves laying the roads. Oh, man.

Yeah. The see you soon. was chilling. It really was. It really was. You know what's even scarier than him saying see you soon to Sylvie and then saying it again to Rivona here is that part when

in season one when Sylvie hacks off the heads of the timekeepers, the fake, the animatronic timekeepers, and they whisper see you soon. That's way worse. It's way worse for a robot to say see you soon that it is a person. I'm sorry. Just is.

Yeah. This episode was good reminder of that because obviously Miss Minutes is an AI, not in a body, much to her chagrin. But every single thing that Miss Minnitz says or does in this episode is bone chilling. I am obsessed with her. She's so good at this episode. Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable. Speaking of, after Ivona pieces out in this memory, Miss Minnitz goes over to ask

he who remains if he wants to play chess, aka, do you want to finally fuck? And once again, is that what that means? Okay. I think clearly, I think now we have the context to understand that that is what Ms. Minnance at least is after. And he remains is not interested. And instead says, pull up protocol 42. She asks if it's time. He says, erase her memories.

Are you sure? Erase all their memories. So this is it, this confirmation of this mass memory wipe. And Ravona now is able to witness this, hear it, from the source. We as viewers have a lot in our minds. This is like, you know, additional little kindling for our OB memory wipe, not remembering his past, theorizing. Before we get into Ravono's response, I'm curious if you have any new thoughts based on this additional context of this conversation about who might have been listening back in the TV. I'm like baffled by this. I am

intrigued and baffled. And I guess the only, the best theory that I can come up with, because our earlier theory was that Ravona had been listening, but now we find out that instead of a recording, Ms. Minutes decided to go full diorama, which is a great way to show someone a memory that they've missed. So shout out to the AV department and Miss Minutes, but A very, who remains he moved, because he did the little

glob. Yeah, he loves the season one finale. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got, Miss Minutes is a bit more sophisticated with it, I think. Um, but, uh, So now my best idea is that it's someone like a Sylvia, Loki or Mobius, someone who needs to know that Ravona is someone who has been manipulated. I mean, Loki already heard it, but like, who queued that tape up in the first place? Who frowned in that face?

Like, how did the down that tape get in there? You know what I mean? My beloved 12. This is a real, I understood that reference, Captain America moment for me now that we have watched Peter Capaldi's doctor. run and I know what that means. God, later I felt proud. That's my stepmom and says all the time. Later, I felt proud. How about you? Do you have any thoughts on who? I think I'm in the, the only thing I feel sure of is that we will find out soon because the fact that we got the elevator and pruning clarity, maybe more quickly than we anticipated and like that loop and that question mark closed. I feel like

we're getting these little parceled out mysteries and plots and feels like we'll get the answer to that. at some point shortly. This will, I'll probably spoil it. This will be my pick for favorite Easter egg, but Protocol 42 I really liked on the, like a double front. One, just 42 inside of Marvel. Obviously makes us think of Spiderverse

and Earth 42 and Spider-42, prison 42 for Mr. Fantastic, et cetera. But this just feels like such a deliberate way to get viewers who are watching this to think of Order 66, Protocol 42, Order 66. Protocol 42, Order 66, inviting that kind of comparison about controlling people.

So I enjoyed that. Didn't enjoy the controlling people, just to be clear, but I enjoyed the parallel language. I mean, I think you've already established yourself as someone who's fond of a gold-veined column. You know, I just clarify that I actually am not a big fan of gold,

just in my personal life. Not a ton of gold in my personal life. So it's a veined marble column. Love it in my TV shows. You know? Yeah. Okay. We've been processing what we've seen and learned, but we're not alone.

Rivona is processing this. Carlos, can we hear her response? I was here. Yes. I helped win. You didn't just help. It was you who commanded the army. So he built this little tower.

And while he sat on his throne, I continued to do all the work to keep him there. well something like that so what are you proposing that we don't need him maybe we never did just like to say what a time to be our beloved arjuna ramgapal who from basically the minute loki premiered in 2021 was screaming to anyone who would listen miss minutes is going to be the big bad i hope he feels vindicated siri play vindicated on spotify um yeah Speaking of music, by the way, that score is really good, always, but especially in this episode. Yeah. I just love this manipulative little clock.

What do you make of her something like that phrasing? Right. I mean, even more memory wiping is a question that I have. Like, how many times was Rvona's memory wiped? Was there, like, a romance? Like, you know what I mean? like, because we don't know how many times a memory wipe happened. We don't know if he who remains tried to like have his cake and eat it too, which is like have Robona as his girlfriend while trying to cut her out of the power move.

You know, like we don't know all that went down. Miss Minutes does. And also Miss Minutes is like both telling the truth to a certain degree from a certain point of view. and hardcore manipulating Robona, right? Yes. You didn't just help. It was you commanded the army. You know what I mean?

Like, just out of control. But I got to say, I'm here for this, the League of Evil X's that is Rovona and Miss Minutes. I'm here for it. I'm into it. Great stuff. Do you think there's any chance

that Rvona already has, to your point about potential additional memory wipes, that comics romance history that we've mentioned before, do you think there's any chance that she has that romantic history with another King variant and that's part of what he who remains eliminated

or do you think that could be part of what comes in the future that this rift with he who remains and his particular machination maybe leads to Rivona aligning with like King Prime at some point in the romance comes there or I mean, who can say?

Timey, why me? Everything's, everything. possible in the multiverse. Time me, why me? I thought that, okay, so this is an episode where we will watch, in short order, Rutter and Slyer do

truly horrific things to other people. The grossest thing I'm shocking. In the MCU. Without question. I don't, you know, like even Thanos snapping people,

like, Thanos snapping people out of existence was not nearly as gross as this. Like, this is grott. That was like, positive. sterile in contrast, certainly at scale. But so I feel like a sociopath for saying this, knowing what awaits mere scenes from now, but in this moment here, it's like you feel, you feel bad for Rivona. And this is one of the things that is so compelling about Loki as a story is like all of these characters make mistakes. A lot of them are drawn or inclined

toward something ill-intentioned on some level, but there are these moments where we learn things about them that spark this empathy inside of us. And then the question becomes, like, can they push toward being better than, like, the people who did that thing to them in the first place? So to see her have to confront, you know, I was thinking back to,

we talked about this line last week, too, but, like, thinking back to her season one, it can't have been for nothing. almost like a desperate plea. Like my whole existence of the TV can't have been for nothing. And to see her have to confront the way that she had been, like, used and disregarded and lied to, but also then deprived access to her achievements, you know? And then I was thinking again of that, like, only one person gets free will, the one in charge

and then Mobius asking her later, like, where are you going to go in search of free will? Well, if she believes that, the only one who has free will is the one in charge and she wants free will. That means seeking that power for herself, like trying to wield it. And when Mobius said to her in season one, you know, like the TVA is a lie and she said, what if it's a necessary one? This is a moment where she has to confront the fact that the lie was the lie of her own life. Like, can this be true? Can it be a necessary lie if the lie was told to you? How do you reconcile that? I think she sees herself as exempt, you know, to your earlier point, to what? all of that. And I think that like, because she sees herself as special. And here's confirmation.

I was special. I was, I was meant to be co-leader of this whole thing. And I did all of these things. And I won the war. And I betrayed someone when I needed to betray someone. And then I had that ripped away from me. And so for her, I think what it comes down to, it sort of like goes back to Mobius talking about not wanting to know about his life in case it was good. It's the thing of like, what do you value? What do you most want? You know, Loki, Loki just wants Sylvie to be okay, you know. Ravona just wants power and control.

And like, you know, she, in her mind and certainly by plenty of definitions, earned that in an earlier iteration of this loop that they're on and had it taken from her. And so I don't, I'm not on her team, obviously, pre or post gupification of- You two would have crushed docs and her minions in the time period. I've never gooped someone and I will never goop someone. That's a promise for me to you. But it has to come from a place that we understand. And we do understand.

I mean, like, especially you and I, like little fucking overachieving Hermione's that we are. Like, you know, there's like, there's always a group project where you did all of this work and then don't get like the credit you feel like you deserve or whatever. You know what I mean? Not all of us will like goopify a bunch of people in revenge and try to take over the world. But like, listen, we're not all made the same. And that's what's beautiful about the universe. Great, great relatable content when Rvona pre-goopification.

It's like, I've only been gone for a couple days and this whole place fell apart without me. You guys couldn't do it. If that didn't pluck a little cord inside your heart, Mal. I don't know what will. It was just great stuff. Great stuff. Rivana. Glad she's back, man.

What a character. I mean, the double team. The double team of Rvona mismanits. It's genuinely tremendous. Inspired. Inspired. All right. Let's go from the Citadel at the end of time to the TVA where Victor Timely is pop in through a time door

into he who remains his foreroom without a lick, without a shred of supervision. Joanna, he has enough time to go stroll the hallways and happen upon the murals of the many Kangs engaging in the multiversal time war before anybody is like,

let's check in on the guy we think might ruin everything. I misremember, didn't they all go through the time door together at the end of the last episode? There is a little bit of a staggering, but like it's guys let's see some hustle you're still not sure if he's going to turn into he who remains at this point you and i talked about this last week and we were so certain that they were going to lose control of him somehow i just didn't expect it to be immediately

at the minute like as soon as he steps put no one is around to keep an eye on him at all and like it seems like thus, you know, so far in our story, timely is on the side of our heroes and so on our side, you know, depending on who has custody of him, he's on their side, basically. So he's not like plotting and scheming, same thing, to, you know, to try to take over the TVA necessarily. He's like enraptured by meeting OB. But if he were, they would have no idea because none of them.

them right there. Not a single problem because no one is watching him. Even the standards of the Slip Shot TVA, this was an all-time. Remarkable. Remarkable. This is cracking up. I was so mad. I was so mad. I was like mad and amused with the same thing. It was, yeah. I did the Leo pointing meme and I was just like, Mallory and I are going to have a feel day with this moment, man. Great stuff. Anyway. Great stuff. Love some pod fodder. Truly. 100 B-15 arrives eventually. And then Locke and Bobius arrive. And they're trying to assure Victor Timely,

who is like, you're not being as reassuring as you think. And they also, of course, have to remind him that in addition to all the reasons that he shouldn't trust Ravona and Miss Minutes and should trust them, they're good people, good hangs. It doesn't matter if you trust us. It doesn't matter if we can compel you because there's no time for anything but the loom.

There's no time. We don't have time. And this was such a meta indictment of the beginning of this episode, just literally saying out loud, we don't have time and this like overall thrust of pushing everyone toward the lumina all costs, the lumid all costs, there's no time for the subtlety and nuance. On the one hand, yes. This comes up in another area that I thought was like even more baffling than this, but yes.

Great point well observed. But I think, and we're going to talk about this more in theory, corner but I think you know when you rewatch this season you will be rewarded by all the time that like loki says at the beginning when he was like I just wish I had more time I wish I had more time there's no time for anything but you know there's no time absolutely I wish had more time there's no time like that's probably going to get paid off of the next two episodes so I think that is what they're shooting towards but for those I was watching at home who are like I'm tired of as as the phrase I keep using is like these little fires the little fire question of the loom versus

is and like we got an email about this that I didn't include in the in the outline but I and so I'm sorry I don't have the person's name right in front of me but it was just sort of this idea of like this kind of storytelling where it's where it's a ticking clock story which it is the loom is in trouble we got to fix the loom. Yeah. Shotout draft day cinematic classic. Yeah. Over the course of four episodes. So it's like drawn out yet an emergency a constant state of emergency and it's just like frustrating, you know? Yeah. But your point about what that might unlock in the next couple episodes is an enticing one. Stay tuned for Theory Corner. And while I have some questions, comments, and concerns about them letting Victor timely just take a stroll through the TVA. Yeah. I do like that Sylvie is given a similar, like completely unsuperable. Like Sylvie keeps popping in and out of the TVA. And then it's like, no one's really that concerned. She's next in the staggered arrival list. It's actually sparking Victor to say,

it's a party, hello, the more, the merrier, which I thought was very funny. And then he delivered, I thought, an important line here when he said, you all want me, Miss Rivona wants me, that effervescent clock lady monster thing. Igonic wants me.

That was so funny. I should have some say. And it's a little, it's a little beat, but like, of course he's right. And to have Victor voice once again, as he did when he was begging Sylvie for his life at the end of last episode, like making the case for free will and showing that he could be more of an ally than a foe in this respect of this, not just preparing the loom, but this, this preservation of free will and people's ability to make their own choices and make decisions about their lives is the great actual unifying factor. Like little moments like that are really crucial. Then there's a power surge.

And guess what? Victor Timely has been watching season two of Loki and listening to the ring or verse and Hassavar because right away he knows. Is that my loom? It is. And he's like, he's clearly on Team Granny Smith, but I'm just not sure I want him on my team. That's the problem. Joanna, we interrupt this latest fray into Apple Wars.

We interrupt this discussion of free will. we interrupt this programming to try to make you care about general docs once more. And we're going to do that a few times today. Okay, good luck. We wish everyone can see your face. You can come to the live show tonight. Yeah, there you go. We cut to the elevator door opening and B-15 and Judge Gamble,

Judge Gamble back from the Judges Council war room scene in the season premiere, are discussing what to do with docs and her minions. In the past, Gamble says, they would have just pruned them all. Should they still? She says, someone told me that the TVA has to change and it has to change now. She's alluding, of course, to the pitch that B-15 and Mobius made in the season premiere. This builds toward this question of, like, what choice to make then. Does this mean Joe, if not pruning, a trial, some other pursuit of justice against this group of people who went rogue and bombed an incredible number of branch timelines?

Here's what it means. Here's the pitch. She's a general of the TVA, Judge Gamble says. And she wants to protect it at all costs. That was her mission. and it can be again if you can convince her that this new version

is worth protecting to. V-15 says, I don't think it'll change anything to which Judge Gamble replies, don't be sure of that. Your words changed me. Joanna Robinson,

I would like to ask you if this scene worked for you. A couple things. I'm so depressed that this is the storyline that B-15 is stuck in. I know. Because again,

I love this actress and I want this character to have so much more to do and have more interesting things to do. This isn't working for me at all. And part of me wonders, here comes the first of many lost illusions today. Like if they're trying to introduce docs and gamble and good old Bradley, etc. What an episode for Brad.

Yeah. Great, great Brad being his wolfiest. Genuinely great Brad episode. Raphael Cassell is just, I'm telling you. genius. But like, if they want us to care about this struggle of the TVA bureaucrats, we needed more time with them. And like, I know you're like, actually, that's the last thing I want. I'm like not enjoying my existent time.

But I just, or maybe not. I don't mean to speak for you. But I'm just like, I feel like it's like introducing the others in a season of loss or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, okay, here's this other arm, whole arm of the TVA that we weren't aware. of these, you know, people who are working encounter to our heroes or some of them agree or whatever, you know, whatever that shifting reality is,

I need to care more about these characters than I do. Docs and Gamble specifically, I think they did a great job with Brad, honestly. Yeah, they did. They nailed Brad. Right. And I mean, like Kate Dickey, who is an incredible performer, and even when she's playing somewhat horrid, like Lysa Aaron on Game of Thrones,

is compelling and engaging. And so I just really feel like they fumbled it. It's like introducing the tailies essentially. Like it just like there just wasn't enough or there was too much. But it just felt like every time we were with them, we were frustrated to not be with our core heroes. So maybe there needed to be a more immersive blend. Like don't just strand B-15 over on this plot,

like make it a more immersive. blend and really a longer season might have made it work. But as is, no, the scene did not work for me. I strongly agree. This was what I was alluding to a few minutes ago and I said there was one other, like I thought even more confounding aspect of the plot in this episode. I think in part because it's that so many different character arcs and storylines. Oh, Carlos. Carlos, I understand. The Lost reference. Crying emoji. Yeah, you did.

Yeah, you did. Good work, Carlos, who binged all of lost in Mirmont this year for the first time. Four months, something like that? Yeah. I'm proud of you, buddy. Truly. Very proud. So not only is this yet another aspect of the storyline that boils down to some version of,

if we just change this person's mind, it's like, well, let's just try to change their mind because they also care about the TVA. but I think much more damning than that is what you said. It's either don't have them at all or give us more time with them. Because I think there's value in having these characters here. I think the intent of it is a sound one where a lot of what separates our nominal heroes from our nominal villains is, and we've been talking a lot about this like newfound purpose or repositioning of purpose for Loki. and obviously that'll come up in his conversation with Sylvie,

like it's harder to rebuild, right? It's harder to hope. Trying to reshape and forge something, like, definitionally, that means you have to pay attention to the other people at impacts besides just, like, you and your closest group of friends. That's, like, not necessarily something that the people you're fighting against would do.

That can be a differentiator. I think also the ability to see the parallels of, like, whose mind can change, who could be compelled by the, realization that they had a life that they could go discover the way that Brad was and I think like Brad's the best he's the proof right

like we got time we actually did get to see him down in his life we got to hear him really actively challenge Loki like in addition to it being a great performance we had an actual substance

with his characters but in a scene like this we have Judge Gamble a character we don't know or care about talking about docs a character we don't know or care about and it hinges on on, okay, your words changed me.

Like, this should really hit us a line like that in a season like this, but it doesn't because we don't have the connection to gamble to understand what changing her means. And she's alluding to a scene where that was a part of what didn't work about that scene in the first place. So it's like the lack of time and clarity and context on the characters is compounding rather than us getting any additional clarity there. what's frustrating is that they're tantalizing glimpses. Like when we saw that like weird, you know, Lysa-Aren-esque connection between Docks and Bradley and we don't. And then so then later,

when she says Bradley to him, there is weight and context to that that does actually work in that moment for me, that delivery, that moment, his face, all of that. But I want even more, what is their relationship? What is this? And like, I could, I would have happily taken that if it meant that I was more emotionally invested in docs so that when docs and a number of literally nameless TVA agents get gooped.

Red shirts a plenty. We have no idea what any of those people are. The only reason that we care about that and I do is the look on on Brat's face is because Raphael Kiselle is selling it the way that he is. You know what I mean? And it's just like, so that moment works for me in a way. but it would work for me so much more if these were characters that I understood better than I do. Yeah, I'm I totally right. I think that the Bradley, the look,

those compelled me, but it actually, I had a little bit of the opposite response to you, and I know we're jumping ahead to that scene, but it is all connected here. Like, I actually felt a little angry in retrospect about the head muzzle embrace because it just felt like

it was there simply, as emotional shorthand. We are going to give you one glimpse to indicate to you that these characters have a history without telling you anything about what it is. I'm tempted to agree with you,

but what I actually think is more likely is that some of that existed and they cut it up. I feel like there's something there that they cut out. What do you think it was? You think they were fucking? You think it was more of a like

mommy son? Mommy, I mean, with the Lyssa Sweet Rabbit? Yeah, with the Lysa Aaron connotation. Oh, ew. God. I'm so mad that I had to hear and see that.

Yeah, everyone else loved to hear it, but you had to see it. Oh, my God. Is that a binge mode bit? Did you bring back a binge mode bit? Yeah, okay. I'm sorry. That I can't meet you where you mean to you that there. It just kills me every time.

Liza. What an incredible, what an incredible, incredible, incredible, incredible character, Liza Aaron was. Remember her fondly always. Okay. Let's leave Gamble behind. Let's leave Docs behind. We'll be back with Docs before long. And let's go back to our pals.

Let's go back to Victor as he tours the TVA. He's having a blast Joe. He is soaking up every floorboard, every glimmer on a wall. he is thinking about what his relationship to this place might be. He says, so I built all of this, or I did, or I will, and I did. And look, he says, almost you, but not you. I got such a kick out of him just like trying to continue to look around every Ben and explore and still be just saying, trust me, it's not that great.

She stays an icon. She has one of the, we have out like a hall of. Fame, Hall of Fame Sylvie moment in this episode when Obie's like, someone looks at her. And she just thought like eyebrows wiggle and the chin-knit.

She's like, yeah. Guess anyone when Obie says, it was me. Ruined my life. And she's like, yep. I did that. Loved it. Absolutely incredible. This is genuinely great shit. And ruined my life. This is wonderful stuff from Opie and Sylvia

that moment. which we are nearing here because we go to Obie's workshop. Victor Timely lets out. And when I say literal squeal, I mean it because it was subtitled squeals excitedly. A literal squeal when he meets OB. I just say Victor Timely worked so much better for me in this episode than he worked in the previous episode. Just the calibration of mannerisms and all that sort of stuff, you know. Yeah, absolutely.

I agree. Here's the thing, Joe. It's not just that Victor is meeting the author he was in correspondence with his idol OB. OB is meeting an idol of his own. He knows him, too. And the realization that he is meeting this person whose work influenced him is a tantalizing little scene for paradox lovers such as the House of our podcast hosts who were with you today talking about this scene. Orboros. Yeah, that's me.

You wrote the TVA handbook. Well, yes, I did, but I learned everything I know from a brilliant 19th century inventor, Victor Timely. If you'd had the resources, he would have been bigger than Einstein. As Obie is saying this, Loki is putting his hands down on the counter, leaning forward, looking from face to face. Everybody realizes that this is like a big moment and a big reveal. Loki says, so if your work is based on his work and his work is based on your work, and then Mobia says, exactly which came first. Obie then defines and describes his own name.

I could have done without this last line. Underlines the point in a way we don't need. It was with it until here. It's like a snake eating its own tail. If you are intrigued by this chain of custody. Beethoven? I would recommend you, YouTube, 12th Doctor Beethoven, Bootstrap Paradox speech.

It's a great little monologue. There are two options. Also, you could just watch all of Doctor Who with us and listen to all of our podcasts about Doctor Who. Option one. I was going to say you could watch three seasons of dark, which is all about. You could also watch three seasons in dark. Or you could watch one tidy clip. Yeah, three or four minutes with Peter Capaldi's 12th doctor monologuing about the bootstrap paradox.

Great stuff. Bootstrap paradox. Yeah. Love a bootstrap paradox. So, Joe, we've been talking a lot about paradoxes, about these loops. We know, of course, how timely got OB's work, got the TVA guidebook, because we saw that last week with Ravona and Miss Minutes depositing it through his childhood window. Is the reveal still to come of how the timely guidebook full of his doodles and scribbles and his breakthroughs makes it back to a prior OB? And who does it?

And with what intention? the thing that I keep, we've been talking about the TVA guidebook for the moment it showed up with its you know, cheery little orange cover. We were like, this is an important book

that we were going to be tracking all season. Indeed it was. And we were talking a lot about the comp to the sports almanac in Back to the Future 2. But in this episode, specifically, I was reminded of Daniel Faraday's journal from Lost, not to spoil

loss in a major way, but Daniel Faraday who when I had a lost podcast we used to call him Time Daddy Our our scientifically minded character who likes to explain things about times and time travel and paradox

has a journal just brimming with his thoughts and diagrams and all the stuff about time about this mysterious island there on blah that journal again this is the part

where I'm gonna like try to smooth overspill that journal makes its way into the hands via time travel of his own mother, who then later in life gives him the blank journal that he starts, you know what I mean, but uses all the information in his journal to build a lot of the initiative, you know, the Dharma, like all of those sort of stuff. So it's just like that. I played the road. Right.

I mean, it's just sort of like the, using the knowledge of her own son to build the thing that will then suck her son into this thing that will result in him giving her the journal and the loop goes ever on. But, I mean, that's so much more than the sports almanac. I mean, especially since, like, yeah, scientific advancement base and stuff like that. The Faraday Comp is an absolutely perfect one. Shout out lost. Great one.

It's a great episode, too. Rivers Time Diary in my mind a little bit as well in a different way, just because Doctor Who is so fresh in my mind. Spoilers. Yeah, spoilers, exactly. Question for you. Yeah. Okay.

So these are these are. these are things that I mean, maybe not. Faraday and Lost specifically would pop into the character's heads. But these questions, okay, so this loop, this question of causality, this connection. Obviously, like,

based on the quotes we just shared, this is pinging for Loki and Mobius, but do you think that witnessing this exchange between OB and timely? Like, should it, now again, everyone's on the clock, right? There's an urgent matter. But do you think that this should have sparked any weight?

Are we as free of He Who Remains His Game as we thought we were questioning and examination from the characters in like real time here? Or do you think that's not a reasonable bridge for them to cross? The way that Sylvie isn't, Sylvie heard him say, see you soon. And she isn't constantly questioning the way in which she is, like speaking about a game of chess, like merely a player on the board, you know?

If I were them, I would have been a little more troubled by this. I think about this loop. And we're going to, we're talking Theory Corner about, you know, other loops we might see this season. But the thing about this loop that we're on is like, I've just been thinking about it a lot. I mean, we'll talk about this in Theory Corner,

but just like, what's different? This has, we have to be watching a different loop. So what's different from any other time that he remains has said, see you soon, and they loop back to the beginning. It has to be Sylvie and Loki and their combination. We'll talk about why, you know?

Yeah. You don't think it's the specific shade of the key lime pie. It might be the hot chocolate. Okay, once again, a very passionate pursuit of an autograph is delayed. Everyone, the lesson, I think,

is sign the book when you can. Like, get OB to sign your, but don't let anyone else say, no, we don't have time for this because Victor turns into fucking spaghetti at the end of the episode. So very sad. But they do pause

because there's other stuff to do, including going over the plan. OB has a good one cook him. He's ready to tell everybody. And Joanna, not only is he ready to tell everybody, he has prepared a model. It's only a model. He's a little insecure about it,

but it is frankly spectacular. And I have never wanted anything more than to build Lego. That's with my guy, OB, after seeing this. It is, this was just, this was so sweet hearing him talk about this. Carlos, can we hear this? Forgive the shoddy and slapdash work. It's not to scale.

I only got one coat of paint on there. I haven't been able to carve our figures to represent all of us. The loom. I'm honestly embarrassed that Victor is here to see it. Okay, I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Obe, it looks great. Just getting the hearing Victor to say the loom. The loom.

God. I mean, I think that we have to... So cute. Protect O.B. Barry forever the O.B. is the big bad of anything, right? He's a darling angel.

He couldn't be sweeter. Detter than dead. Many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many people emailed us to remind us that this is, of course, a reference to Doc Brown, making an apology for his model building in the original. back to the future. I do love that the whole not-to-scale thing, all of that, but I do love that Obie's model has like a little sign that he made

that says not-to-scale that's hanging off of it. Like, he didn't have time to make it to scale, but he had time to make a sign that says not-to-scale. Make sure people knew it wasn't to scale. Yeah. So funny. He's the best. This is when we enter a stretch

of just supreme techno-babel. Right down to Casey needing to get involved with hands signals to explain the rings. I was so, so grateful for these little injections of comedy and charisma amid the surrounding techno babble. Like this is where we get the little OB-Silvie moment when he says, when someone killed, he remains and released all this branches and ruined my life and she has the response.

This is also, of course, where we get that's just sensational back and forth between Mobius and Loki about which of them the model looks most like. Moby is saying it's got your shape to it. It was so funny. What do you mean? It's got my shape. It's someone in a suit. It could be anybody.

I love the banter between these two. It's just so great. Love some banter. Love some models. This is wonderful. And Sylvie, though, she came down hard on Team Joe here. It's wearing a helmet. It doesn't look like anyone. Like Sylvie has some notes on the Mandalorian helmets as well. I think that's clear from this.

Sylvie and I are going to start our own podcast where we bitch about every time someone has obscured a charismatic face with a helmet. Let Pedro Pascal show his beautiful face. Thank you. Wonderful stuff. One of the rub. Everything they just talked about is completely theoretical because the throughput multiplier doesn't work. Ah, good news. Victor's here. He jumps in. He knows. the problem and he has the solution. It's the prototype. The goober that he got from the Wisconsin lab. Here it is progress. Okay, so they've got to go to work, Joe. And that means some of our other pals are exiting the workshop. Mobius makes what I think is,

just an eminently reasonable suggestion. The only suggestion, really, in a moment like this. let's have a little pie while we wait. Obviously. Wisdom, dare I say courage? Eredition, you know? A man of taste. He's not to be distracted by a veined column. No, nay.

He's got his priority straight and he says, give me a piece of pie. He's a Twin Peaks fan. If you just say distracted by a veined column without any of the other context. I already said phrasing to beamed column like an hour ago. I said,

But in that particular, I mean, my goodness. You can't phrase me when I phrased you an hour ago. It's illegal. It needs like a double. It needs the sublime level phrasing, you know, really amplified on that one. Don't phrase a fraser. It's not. Here's the thing, Joe.

What do we know about us guardians? They don't like pie. They just, they don't fucking like pie. Give me the nuts. Give me the grease. Smileyer refined sugars. Dismaying. The kubmaying.

The cabloy experience did nothing to win Sylvie over to Team Pie. That's why she's giving it away to people. She's like, you want this absolute teeth rot? Here you go. She lays into Mobius. This is this quote I'm about to read is the second part after the Withering Pie indictment. She's kind of moving down the hall toward him. You found out you're a variant and you haven't even looked.

have you. It's just another bad day at the office for you. Timelines are just lines on a monitor. Doesn't matter if you disappear because you've never bothered to look if one of them was yours. Who cares if you just disappear? Enjoy your pie. Can we talk about the lighting in this stretch for a second before we talk about the substance of what she says? Because it was like gorgeous. The dark background and the zooming in on Mobius' face during that particular stretch and he is like so brightly lit and then we cut to Loki or to Sylvie

and she is in shadow. This was, there were a lot, the cinematography and lighting in this episode was really beautiful. The framing, the angle of the camera, there are some other scenes coming up. Oh yeah. I mean, the shot of Tom Hilton

looking into the exploding light that was basically Hugh Jackman and Darren Aronoffey's the fountain. like a just a stunning shot. But like there's also so many instances of like the lights flickering on and off later sort of in the elevator gambit that and the ticking of it, the ticking of the lights as they flick on and off is like giving you that, that clock ticking feeling.

And yeah, there's a lot of artistry in Loki and there always has been. But I think more like leaps and bounds above, other than Wanda Vision, I'd say leaps and bounds above all other Disney Plus show. The thing I want to say about the pie, especially the way it's used here. There have been all these theories about the key lime pie floating around by our various pals who do other content. And I think that there's this theory that the pie is literally

there to make people complacent to keep them docile, which evokes a couple things. It evokes the lotus eaters from the Odyssey, right? Like you eat the lotus you stay and this sort of narcotic dreams, space or, you know, eating season of pomegranate and being trapped in the underworld. You know what I mean? Like all the stuff around food and eating and forgetfulness and all that sort of stuff. And I think that that's both true, but maybe not literal. Like, I don't know that it's literally like the pie is keeping him complacent dozy. You don't think the pie is protocol 42 and it's like generating the memory

wipes or anything quite that. I don't think so. I'm happy to be. wrong, but it doesn't matter because as Sylvie eloquently puts out here, it's symbolically that. You're just sitting here and you're just shoveling this alarmingly green pie. You don't even remember what actual key lime pie looks like and you're just shoveling this

green pie in your mouth and your gullet and ignoring the reality of the situation, the reality of your own past, etc. Pretty rich from someone who got to enjoy apple pie and piping hot fries at McDonald's and a cool creamy shake whenever she wants.

You know. Two out of three of those things are quite good. Yeah. But of course that was in pursuit of a life. So, you know, I love a salty fry. You don't love a salty fry? A 1980s salty fry with a with the 1980s McDonald's shake. Yeah.

Heck yeah. Yeah. And of course a warm gooey apple pie with some delicious warm fruit. Me a pie out of it. So Joe, Brad, Loki, and Sylvie have all now pressed. Mobius on this. I wonder if there's going to be some payoff to it before the end of the season.

What do you think? I would say that they've done it with varying degrees of tenderness and consideration for his feelings and for what might be motivating and driving his decisions. Only Loki took the time to understand. Should we talk about anything in the context of this exact moment that we see in the trailer for the rest of the season? Can, do you want to? I think we should.

It would be weird not to. If you don't want to hear this hit fast forward twice. So we're going to see Mobius in his life. It's confirmed in the trailer. We've gotten these quick glimpses in the full season trailer, but it's like centered here. Giskees. Couldn't be more thrilled.

I cannot wait to see this. Loki says the TVA and he says, you mean ATV? So yeah, he's iconic. Not just JetC's one might think, like perhaps all kinds of pleasure barges. Yeah. Love a pleasure barge.

Yeah. Now, of course, we don't know, like, is this, we'll speculate and theorize later. What happens with the implosion of the loom? Does this just send everybody back to their original time? And like, it doesn't necessarily indicate that Moby's makes an active choice to go there, but still, hopefully we are going to see this. No matter what he's going to retain awareness of it. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Cannot wait. Cannot wait. Okay. I regret to inform you, it's time to go back to General Docs for a few minutes. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Brad's here.

Brad is here. Thankfully, Brad is here, along with all the other red shirts who are about to be squished to death. No pie here in the time theater. What do you think about everybody being kept in one space where they can freely plot and scheme and scheme and scheme and plot together? Another sterling bit of security at the TVA. They're like, let Victor and Sylvie. a wonder wherever she wants, put all of the insurrectionists in one giant room. Honestly, it's amazing the TVA lasted this long.

Astounding. Astonishing. It's only through constant memory wipes that they are able to function at all. Okay. We've picked some nits. We're heading into the stretch of the episode where we're going to be talking about more things soon that we really liked a lot. An untouchable.

How much time do we need to spend on this? Not much on the docks. but I just want to take a moment inside of a scene that doesn't work to say there are gems. If you dig long enough, Joe, you find that pearl. And Brad trying to quote Galileo or Churchill but not remembering which as he is attempting to rally the troops is hysterical. Like Brad is just not missing a beat in this episode, much like he did in an episode two. And Docs is like, we all know, you just want to get back to fucking. Brigitte Bardot. And he's like,

Mom, who told you that? She's like, oh, we all know about your escapades. I didn't know you knew that. It was so wonderful. I didn't know you knew that. As an actor, Brad. Genuinely incredible. He tries to make the, I earned my life. I think we all earned our lives appeal. They're not here for it. Do you think you've earned the right to fuck Brigitte Bardo? I feel like I've earned the right to fuck Brizzie Bardo. So. I've earned the right to wear a scarf to Zaniac premiere. You have earned that. And I love that for you.

Thank you. Thank you to dip off for a whiskey for my good friend, Mobius, who's just like, here, let me tell you, Loki, why it's okay to drink on the job. That's a great, great opening to episode, too. Wonderful stuff. B-15 enters here, Joe. She makes the appeal. Goes nowhere.

We already talked about why. So let's move on to the next scene. It's Loki and Sylvie having a deep conversation. It'll shock you to hear this is my favorite scene of the episode. This is the stuff. This is the stuff. Gods that talk together, pie together. It was certainly form a lifelong bond.

Wouldn't you agree? This should have been this. Why didn't we get this the whole goddamn season? You know how there are all these signs where they're like you can have one slice of pie a week or whatever, right? No, you know going back for seconds. You're allowed one slice of pie a week. this is I guess how they feel about Loki and Sylvie quality content for us. You're allowed one

scene every few whatever. Anyway, here we go. Loki and Sylvie. Sublime! Sublime scene. Every, the telling thing about why it's so good in addition to just how enjoyable and purely pleasant it is to watch them together is that basically every single thing they say to each other is worth breaking down and talking about it. Like there's that much substance and core text here.

also comedy. That's part of what's great about these two. Sylvie just being like, I made a whole fucking speech about Pie and then I wound up in Pie Land. God damn it. The TV, thwarted by the TVA again. Thwarted by Pie. Okay, so here's the first, here's the first beat here. Say it then, Sylvie says, because she can tell Loki's got something on his mind and he does. About Mobius, he says. He's just trying to see in the dark like the rest of us. And so we're clear. I asked for your help and you walked away. Just so we're clear, Sylvie says, no, I didn't. I'm here, aren't I? Again. Okay, this is perfection. Every part of it. First of all, Loki defending of opious. Like, she followed her in there to defend his boy. And it melted my fucking heart.

He's just trying to see in the dark. Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful rhetoric. Beautiful. emotion, like all of that. And just the admission, like, it feels like a core admission, right? Like, we don't know what we're doing, actually. Like, even we don't know what we're doing. We got. But when he says, I asked for your help and you walked away, this like pain of vulnerability. I asked for help. You walked away. And she's like, no, I didn't. I'm here. And I, again, right? So she's like, on the one hand, frustrated that she's like still always there. But she's just sort of like, what you interpret as rejection is not actually a rejection. I'm right here.

But all of that in close proximity to his defense of Mobius, because he's lashed on to Mobius as someone who has not walked away from him, someone who has stayed by him, you know? And so it's just like, and to watch them try and constantly miss each other, Sylvie and Loki, try to understand each other. But like both of their inability to trust gets in the way of it constantly, right? So he's like, you walked away. And she's like literally standing right here.

What do you mean? I walked away, you know? It's such a crucial point. And like thinking about that episode four, Shrection season one where loki's able to win Mobius to his side and like the things that Mobius says to him to prove that he believes him and is going to stand with him is about the core of his ability to be good.

And like to compare it to the, why aren't we? seeing this the same way, Sylvie Loki moment in the finale that like every piece of this fracture. It's not just the timeline that fractured in that moment, you know? It's it's just absolutely devastating. Our fucking hearts shattered. I thought, I mean, Hiddleston is always spectacular, but he was, I thought, just extraordinary in this scene. Like the.

He's always best. Quiet sadness. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's no old-school Loki rage here, which is, of course, particularly notable because he will call back to one of those moments in short order. This is like mature, resigned despair.

It's like let down longing, you know? It's just this quiet sadness, and it was absolutely heartbreaking. Like, we talked, well, you and I didn't get the chance to talk because we didn't talk about the second episode together, but that moment, it's harder to stay. And the anguish in his voice as she was going through the time door and he was saying it's harder to stay. And like, I love the way you put it about just missing each other. And like, uh, it's just, I know we want to parse every single moment.

And we will. But please forgive me slightly hopping head. And we will hop back. Please. Yeah. We will not let a single word uncovered. But when you were covering that with Rob and I was begging Rob Mahoney, my fellow Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan. Yeah, uh-huh.

To comment on that line, and he didn't. But thankfully, Loki says a similar thing again here when he says trying to fix what's broken is hard, hope is hard. Both that moment and the moment that you and Rob discuss in episode two is invocative of, evocative of one of the most famous Buffy of Vampire Slayer lines. She says at the end of season five to her sister when she's about, Buffy's about to sacrifice herself. Her sister has to stay.

And Buffy says the hardest thing in this world is to live in it. The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it. And then it's something her sister then says to her later in another episode. And it's just sort of like, I think about that line all the time. The hardest thing in this world is to live in it. So it's like the hardest thing to do is to stay. The hardest thing to do is to hope is to fix, is to, you know, stick in it. It's easy to run.

It's easy to hide. It's easy to sacrifice yourself to save the world because you don't have to then stick around and like deal with consequences and stuff like that. And so this idea of, you know, we talk a lot about. this. We talked about about this a lot. We were talking about Dr. Who, this idea of like the doctor who runs away and all the sort of stuff like that. And it's this idea of Loki as someone who has dodged depth of feeling, dodged discomfort, dodged all these sort of things and run towards mischief, run towards plots and

schemes, etc. And for him to say, I just want to be with you and I want to be here. And I want to build this thing. And that's why, again, time will tell at the end of this season. I think you and I came to an agreement last week about like it's not clear who's right and who's wrong in these Loki and Sylvie conversations. But I think this idea of hope is hard, trying to fix what broken is hard, is the correct path for a Loki, at least, these lokies who are trying to be different. Trying to fix what's broken is hard. staying is hard. Yes.

I think this scene does a great job of allowing them to interrogate what they see as like the others myopia or miscalculation and like see if there's a middle ground there. So it's like sort of exactly the conversation that we really really needed. What did you make of the next beat of their conversation

is you're only here because you couldn't kill him? Loki says. Yeah, I couldn't kill him, Sylvia replies. Couldn't do it. Timely just looks so scared. He Who Remains wasn't scared or maybe he was and I just didn't notice. I thought that that didn't notice was like, I just thought that was so disturbing. That's like a really harrowing thing to have to confront about yourself that that could be possible. Well, it's a couple things. It's like he remained, the reason he who remains wasn't scared was because this is all part of his plan anyway. You know what you mean? And it's just sort of like, literally said to them. This is his own creation, right? baby.

Yeah. But also, I just didn't notice because there wasn't time to notice because, as Loki kept saying, we just needed more time. We just needed to stop and consider and figure it out. And together we could have figured it out, this sort of thing, you know. Loki, uh, he's got some memories. He's got some memories that is sharing here. No diorama.

No 3D models. No tempad goop. but a little story. He says some years ago, my brother was banished from Asgard and sent to Earth. And when he came back, he was different,

changed somehow. I thought it was weakness. I mocked him. Said he'd gone soft. And Sylvie replies, soft gets you killed. So this is, of course, a reference to the end

of the first Thor film, which I think I have always felt that you could make the case. I don't think there's a writer a wrong answer here. But I think you can make the case that this is actually the most vicious, even though it is stemming so deeply from feeling hurt and it's efficient and lied to and betrayed by his own family, that this is actually more so even than the Avengers, the most vicious and villainous Loki has ever been, certainly like the most petty and cruel and vengeful

because, like, if we think about what he says to Thor, I don't know what happened on earth to make you so soft. Don't tell me it was that woman. Oh, it was? Well, maybe when we're done here, I'll pay her a visit myself, which is just like one of the most disturbing things he ever says. And so I don't think there's a more perfect moment to reference and call back to because it's another thing that reminds us of how mulling quim. The only other, I was going to say, to quote your favorite movie Thor the Dark World when he goes, oh dear, she did. Incredible stuff.

Incredible stuff. Oh, dear, she did. But like on the Jane front, that moment in Thor, he is mocking Thor for the very thing that Sylvie unlocked for him, right? Like the power of connection, what another person can do

for you. And he has gone from, and like, again, this was a good moment to remind her that the Loki in the television show, Loki is ported right after the events of Avengers, like much closer to the Thor film than the stuff he watched on the videotape in the beginning of season one. And like, he got to the,

I just want you to be okay point with Sylvie because of Sylvie, because of Mobius, because of the exact same kind of personal connection. He wasn't just mocking the humility that allowed Thor to like wield meal near again. He was mocking, like, making yourself vulnerable by opening yourself up to another person. And, like, that's what he's done with Sylvie.

And it's like, this was just a really beautiful, like, full arc moment of acknowledgement from him. And this is why I think this is what has to be different about this loop is, like, what makes Loki a Loki or whatever? A Loki will always betray a Loki will always choose power. What if you find a Loki, better yet two lokies who are trying to find connection with each other? No.

Only connect as he enforcers. We connect. Who do you think Alligator Loki is connecting with? Oh, well, me and Loki, Richard Grant. They had a thing and a whole bond. Good old classic Loki. It's very sweet. Yeah. Dolores. That first one was classical. Okay. And that second one was big out. That was off the hand. That was your alligator Loki impression. And what people couldn't see was like you biting an arm. It was pretty phenomenal stuff on a Zoom call on a Monday morning.

Yeah. So it's been a big pod of Zoom visuals for an audio medium. Why isn't this podcast a video podcast? Exactly. Maybe one day. But thank God everyone was spared from watching supple and imaginary teeth. Truly one of the worst things that were seen in my life. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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She spared every life on all of the branches when she made that choice. This was where I wanted to ask you for a second, not because it's germane emotionally to their conversation, but just because it was on my mind a lot in this episode. We can move through this very quickly because it's frankly less relevant, given the trailer they released and what we'll theorize about later. But like, were there moments, whether it was here or anywhere else that you were wondering, like, should anyone at any point have said, all right, yeah, like, I get it. Obie has told us all we're going to die.

It seems like the loom of floating would be a bad thing. But like, let's remember that the loom was created. and put into place by who remains to control. And so, like, why are we only talking about widening it? Why do we need it at all? Like, why do we need the limb at all? Let's blow it up. Let's reset.

There were timelines before the loom. And sure, yeah, then there was multiversal war. But, like, life is full of tradeoffs, you know? Life is full of disappointment. Oh, boy. It's funny, I can't hear the phrase multiversal war without hearing as multiversal war. Wow. What a Meghauntness is. She's very special. She's very special. The next beat, Joe, is the clip that we chose for the opening of today's podcast because it was beautiful. What if Loki's wrong? What if a better TVA is impossible? What if Sylvie was wrong to spare Victor timely? Wouldn't it just be easier to burn this place down and start from scratch? Sure, burn it down easy. Annihulating is easy. Raising things to the ground is easy. Trying to fix what's broken is hard. Hope is hard. You made the beautiful buffy comp that I, of course, have no ability. to make because I have not seen Buffy,

but I was nearly moved to tears hearing you talk about it, so I'm incredibly compelled by that. I, it made me think a little bit, first of all, I got some Baylon skull vibes from Sylvie here. Like, it made me think of, it's an unfortunate evil, but speaks to a greater

truth. One must destroy in order to create. And like that Baylon pursued in Asoka of, okay, if institutions fail, we don't just eliminate them. We have to set out to eliminate the very foundation on which their existence is even possible and like whether that can ever be valid

like that extreme of a position, you know? And then the other thing that made me think of Loki's response specifically, that hope is hard. I was thinking of our beloved 12 and Missy and that that's the trouble with hope. Like it's hard to resist. The alternative, you know, is harder and scarier

and like how desperately you. you can want something, but all of the warning signs around you. And, you know, I think like this scene, this particular exchange, and then the next one that we hear where they kind of both interrogate the other person just felt really important and crucial. And I was really glad we had it because I think, like, something we've talked about a lot through the episodes to date in this season is like, how, okay, so burn it down, burn it to the ground is the driving force for the characters in season one.

So it's not like it's wrong to have a more measured and nuanced assessment of that. But like give us moments like this where we can understand how Loki's desire to think beyond destruction and maybe his core instinct to destroy is such a crucial sign and indicator of growth and progress and evolution in the form of reassessment, not a disconnect. I think earlier this season your take was a little bit more like Sylvie was right, burn it down and Loki is wrong in some of the ways it was being framed earlier my take is less I think in this part

and more the quote the next chunk of like that's still where I'm like oh my should we be concerned by Loki's stance less this part I think like this desire but they're connected you're right they're kind of inextricable I think I think they're pushing towards

Sylvia's wrong and not it's again It's not an easy. I don't know, though. The next beat, though, I think is the Loki. Should we listen? Should we listen to the next beat? Let's listen to the next beat then.

Okay. So, so timely can save the TVA. Then we hope that the TVA turns into something good. Then we hope that timely doesn't turn into he who remains or someone worse. That's a lot of hoping, Loki. I don't you have you down for an option? This is the best option we have. So you're going to bring him behind the curtain,

show him all of this, and then just send him home. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe can watch him, protect him. Interfere for good. Heard that one before. You can't give people free will and then just walk away Sylvie. That's not how it works. Now for better or for worse, the timelines are free.

It's up to us to protect them. It's up to us to do better than he who remains. Sounds like whatever we do, we're playing God. Our gods. Score kicks in. It's like, okay. Can I say a couple things about this? Yes.

Something that I love about this whole scene, and very specifically this part as well, is the emotional pull, of Loki and Sylvie and how much we as an audience want them to like be together to fucking like kiss like whatever you know what I mean to have that tension underwriting a scene where two characters fundamentally

disagree but disagree in like neither is the villain or necessarily the hero like they both believe this is the right way forward is such smart storytelling because like all you want all you want watching this so much more than like I mean the absolute diametric

opposition of this is like B-15 you know, trying to like convince docs of something and we're like, who the fuck cares? You know what I mean? But it's like,

you Loki and Sylvie in a darkened pie land like trying to connect with each other. And when he walks towards her, right at the end here, he walks towards her, and he just walks past her. And you're just like,

no, man. Like, you know, on my like basic. immature, like, shipper level and, like, kiss. But more importantly, I'm just like, find common ground, connect with each other, you know? And, I mean, I hear what you're saying about, like, we can't just give people free will and then just walk away.

You're like sort of like, that's the whole thing with free will. But I think, but at the same time, I think it's sort of like, I mean, I don't, I don't, I, I genuinely hate to bring real world politics into this. but like it's like the conversations we have when the U.S. decides to intervene in a war and then just walks away without helping rebuild the infrastructure of the place that it's supposedly liberated.

And it's just sort of this idea of like, okay, the concept of liberation is good. But then do you just walk away and allow that whole place to crumble again because they didn't have the tools in place? Or how much intervention is good intervention? You know what I mean? we're not the fucking police of the world, nor should we be. And so it's sort of like, well,

by what right do we, like, are we there? And people will be, again, I'm trying to keep it vague, because like you can pick a million different examples of this of stuff that the U.S. has done. And again, like, I don't, I actually don't know what the right answer is. And so I think it's one of those, like, very chewy and complex questions that we have about, like, the U.S. deciding to intervene in global conflicts. And then what level of rebuilding? and helping an aid is then a part of that liberation. And that's sort of what I think of when I think of Loki saying, let's give them free will, but then we got to protect.

If a multiversal war is coming, if Kang is coming, we then owe them protection. We can't just cut them free from the loom and then just let it all. If we know that this is coming, then we can't just let it all play out because we know that Kang is coming. So there has to be some sort of middle ground where we're not like pruning people willy-nilly in like the fascistic way the TVA was doing before, but that we free them and then someone has to stay and protect them. And all of that sort of just feeds into this larger

like what what Loki's role in the future of the TVA is that we'll talk about a little bit more in theory corner. But that's where I just sort of like, I don't think there's a part of me that agrees that like, oh yeah, yes, you give free people free will and then you just walk away. Yes. that is what you do. But another part of me is like, is that what you do? Or if you are a god, which he is, or if you have knowledge of the future, what is your obligation under that?

I think that's why, like, if we think about not only the history that we have with the TVA and he who remains, but our history with Loki and, like, his, the pull, the power and the seat of power and the guiding hand has had over him before. You know, and we think back to a moment, like, I don't want the throne.

I just want you to be okay. And like, okay, well, this is marching toward, I want you to be okay. And also shouldn't we have the throne actually? And like, I think it's not that Loki is completely or inherently wrong. And it's not that Sylvie is completely inherent. inherently right. I think it's that we've needed exchanges like this between them, where they interrogate the other person's position and like hold each other to account

for the trappings whatever step they take. Because I think you're right that there's like an aspect of oversight is probably like too severe of a word, but like awareness and like accountability. To bring it back to a lost comp, you need a guardian there. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And who that guardian in is really matters for what kind of, you know, island you have to speak very vaguely about loss, you know? I don't think it's a bad thing for Loki to want to protect people.

I don't think it's a bad thing for Loki to say, should we have some sort of body that fosters and ensures that protection? I think that it's important that someone along the way is like, why this? this, why rebuild this thing that was broken and was corrupt and sort of inherently like leads back to that point? And I think it's important for Sylvie to call him out on the things he says here, the way that she did so that he can take that and think about it. Like, watch and protect. That's, that is what the TVA was doing to maintain that one sanctioned version of time. Like, you can't give free will and walk away. Like, I think you did a beautiful job of outlining the push, pull of that. But like, it's with the context that we have of Loki's history, it's hard at least

not to worry that the germ of the you were made to be ruled, Avengers speech, is like, this is still the person who said that. So it's not that I think he's incapable of growing beyond it. I think specifically the fact that he can is why his arc has been so satisfying. But I think it's important to characters like Sylvia, Mobius, or Loki himself or whomever, offer up reminders of like not letting him or anybody who would seek to like rule drift back to that point because there is the possibility of that up to us to protect up to us to do better than he who remains we are gods like it's that that's the core though of why it's so interesting that it is loki and sylvie these like would be lovers at the center of this argument because it's like yeah in sylvie making that

argument the implication is you're a loki and you're always going to be pulled towards megalomania controlling God, et cetera, et cetera. And he's trying to say, that's not me anymore because of you and a number of other things, right? What makes a Loki a Loki? Can a Leopard change its spots? You know, like, am I allowed to change,

which is the central question of season one at Loki? Right. Am I allowed to change? I do think that because such a central part of the, am I allowed to change season one thrust was letting go. Like that first Mobius prompt of like, you know, why is somebody who's capable of so much

on paraphrasing like just want to rule? There is, I can't shake that it feels like there's an element of a backside. And I think it can be very, I think you're right that it can be very compelling if the specific aspects that were central to his tendencies to like fall into the dark earlier in his arc are the actual things

that he can hold on to and cultivate and overcome and like nurses. and wheeled for good. I just think we have to have characters like talking about this. So that's why the scene felt so essential. This was like, I think one of the best scenes of the season,

along with maybe the Brad Loki time theater scene and the Loki Mobius pie chat because they're about this. Like what does change really look like and mean if some of the things that you're thinking are and seeking are the same? Then like what form does the change take?

I agree with you that like, Loki or anybody else saying, fuck it, we did it, we gave him free will multiversal war, like, good luck would be pretty weird. That's not what I'm advocating for. I just think we need, like, we need these moments where, like,

it's like we can't, Loki's growth is satisfying because we remember what he grew out of. Like, I think we can't ignore what his history is, so I'm glad that the show isn't in a scene like this. I think that's kind of a deep balance for me. I loved it.

I loved it. Death by TimeCube. Real emotional swing here. Top way to go. This is very low on my list of ways I would want to die. Like, very low. Being squished by a TimeCube with, like, some of my... A bunch of other people.

Like a dozen or so of my colleagues. Just, like, very low on the list of ways I want to go. I would so much rather be squished so low. How did you like the clarity of why the floor is a great? Great. Now we know. Disgusting. Easy clean it, though. I do love an easy cleanest. Now we know. I forget which one it was, but Berkeley Rep, the great theater in the Bay Area was doing a production of, I want to say as Lieutenant Vanishmore.

It was one of the Martin McDonough plays, and Martin McDonough plays are very bloody by nature. And everyone is just like, the whole stage and everyone on it is covered by blood at the end. and I was, I got to talk to like one of the stage managers working on it and she told me that stage was slightly canted forward and that there was a great at the lip of the stage to collect all the like stage blood. So the, for easy to go, like a drain in the shower. Yeah, yeah, you just hose it down at the end of every production go. Disturbing. Genuinely disturbing. Much like everything we see here.

this was another beautifully shot and staged scene, like the sheen of the room, the reflections on the ceiling. And that the last thing I'll say actually about the Loki Sylvie Pylane scene, when Loki is marching out after the We Are God's declaration and the camera's like low on the ground looking up.

So it almost looks like he has this godly heft to him that the room can barely contain. There's just so many great little camera positions and visual flyers in the. this episode. Ravona and Miss Minutes enter the Time Theater Prison via Time Door. Once again, I just think we have an obligation to continue to observe

that the TVA security is a shit show. How can you allow- Why would we not lock the timers? Well, again, and this goes back to still these shocking stuff. Brilliant plan to drop them in the, you know, amongst the gold vein columns of the Crumbling Citadel with a goddamn temp pad,

like, what was she thinking at all in any of that stupidest plan I've ever seen from character, honestly? Terrible. Wild stuff. At least it all let us do a point where a dox tells Ms. Minutes that she's very disappointed in her. This minute says, I know I'm working on myself. So funny. Oh, boy. So Rvona makes her pitch now. Anyone who helps me restore stability to the TVA will have a life on the timeline if they want it. Has a freem in a show ever captured yearning, like the shot of Bradley Wolf's face here? The yearning tendrils of like, wait, God.

You're saying, I can go fuck Brigitte Bardow. Is that what you were offering? Wow. Brad really wants that life on the timeline. Miss Minutes activates what Mobius likes to call the gizmo. She just zipped right into it, didn't need the remote control, harrowing. Doc says that she's seeing the big picture at last.

It's too late for Revona Ravenclaw or any of the viewers at home to care about General Doc's revelations. Did you just call her Ravenclaw? Did I? Yeah. She's a slithering, baby. Come on. That's just my brain.

My brain. Yeah. Red Slayer. Slayer. Slayer. Putting the slayer and red slayer. Yeah. I will see this.

This caught me by surprise. I should have seen this coming because we got the like earlier introduction of the cube with Brad and the Brad interrogation. I should have, I should have known that this is coming but this one got me.

And I was just like and then this. And it's just in the room. Like the vacuum is just sitting there. It's just there. It's just there. I don't know. I just didn't. And then the cube opened up

and then I was like, oh no. And then the sound. Brad on the outside, of course. He made his choice, Joe. He was uncompelled by the final life in the timeline was that good, huh? That's from Docs, which made no sense. His like guilt, his like craven sort of fringing, just, oh. Yeah.

It was just wild. You mentioned the sound of the TimeCube corpse goo dripping down the great. Carlos, can we hear this? The uncomfortable panting. Let's go, ex-5. What's up? The dripping. Okay, the dripping, it's revolting.

This, as you said earlier, is like, maybe the most horrified, shocking thing the EBCU has ever done. We have to talk about Miss Minn's face as this is happening. I want a giff of it, and I want to, this is a very giffable season as far as I've been concerned. Oh, yeah.

She is, like, getting off on this. She is like, this is a sexual. fully turned on by this. Yeah. She's playing chess with herself if you know what I mean and I think you do. Checkmate.

Exactly. She's cash with the queen. You know what I mean. Oh boy. You have an important email to read here. I feel really bad. Our listener, Mikhail, who has written so many wonderful emails,

erudite emails, and wrote a great long, erudite email, except I just pulled one line out of it. And by the way, shout out to this listener. I saw them at New York Comic-Con. Great, great time. Anyway, I saw a number of our listeners in New York Comic-Con.

It was delightful. Can we call her general box now? No notes. I think we have to. No notes. Sensational. I honestly can't get over that scene. The Time Cube death is historic.

The way it was just like slightly below frame, like the top edge of the gold box is like in frame. And I was like, are they show, they can't show it. They literally cannot show this on Disney Plus. The later moment when B12 finds the, or B15 find B12. It's like a baseball dosing scandal, B12, when B15 goes in and discovers it and then lifts the temp pad and they cut in that direction. I was like, are we going to see it?

But then the temp pad was there blocking it. Wild stuff. The sound treatment, I actually can't believe they like, pushed it that far. I'm astounded. Astounded. Streaming and dripping. Oof.

Man. Hot cocoa. Cold science. We're back with Victor Obie and Casey there incorporating the prototype into Obes through put multiplier. Mobius shows up. He's got a soothing beverage in his hands.

And Victor timely is interested. He's interested. You have a machine for that? He just keeps bringing up the hot cocoa machine. And he can't shake his interest in the hot cocoa machine. The timeline, the loom, the TVA, it's all in the line. Everyone has been very clear about how pressing this is. And he just wants to go see the hot cocoa machine.

And I honestly loved this. I was like, thank God. Somebody sees something else that matters in this life, specifically delicious hot cocoa that you want no part of. D90, literally only person who cares about supervision of the TVA is like, I'll take them. Right? Yeah. How'd that go?

Yeah, not great for D90, but at least you tried. We add a little line here before Victor bounces where he says, everything is going according to plan. So that was a nice little wink, I think, right? From the writer's dust. Like, according to whose plan? Hoops. Yeah.

Tempads aren't working, Joe. They're not working. Mobius hands over his. It's not working either. Okay. Everybody goes in their separate directions. lots of discoveries in rapid succession here. B-15, this is when she goes in and sees the pile of goo.

And then we cut immediately to the tripping hot cocoa, and it reminded me so powerfully of the infamous Game of Thrones cut from the scalpel going into Chora's gray scale right into the creamy gooey center of a savory pie. You must not neglect the gravy. Do not neglect the gravy. You've got to brown the butter. Oh, disgusting. It's like, oh my God.

Samwell entirely cured grayscale just by kind of like scraping it off. Yeah, so like who needs skin ultimately? That's another lesson in this show too. Here's my question. No one ever tried just cutting it off? Sam's an innovator, you know? Truly is. He knows how to.

read and that matters. Okay. So Joe, this is where Victor and D9D-90 arrive at the hot cocoa machine. Very sweet moment. Victor can see D-90 coveting the cocoa and he gives it to him. And D-90, I'm like, does he not get to use the hot cocoa machine ever? Like, what's going on here? Because he took a sip and it transported him. And so at least he was pruned happy because he was immediately pruned from behind by Brad. Phrasing. May we all be pruned from behind by Brad. Phrasing. May we all be prove from behind my bread on a moment of a moment of pure taste explosion ecstasy. Oh, God. Here's a, I'm going to throw this out there.

If I were in the TVA, I would adopt the, like, old West never sit with your back to the door rule. I would constantly and exclusively walk around side crab shuffle style with my, back to a wall so that nobody could ever get the prune jump on me, ever. And I was going to say wear armor, but they're wearing armor. Armor is nothing's prune resistant. The fucking time stick prunes through the wall. Like, maybe I would make armor made only of time sticks. And so if you try to prude me, I'm going to prove me right back.

Yeah. We need to know what the like, what's the best scar, you know, like what can stop a lightsaber? Like, what's the equivalent? Yeah. Let's put our scientific minds on this next. back in the workshop joe obi it's just trying to figure out what's gone wrong with the tempads and he asks mobius

did you download unauthorized games again and mobius says no i'm not going to make that mistake twice unbelievable this is his version of the doctor saying don't look at my browser history what game do you feel like mobius got caught down this is this is what i was going to ask you yeah So I feel like it's the snake game. Did you ever play the snake game on like a Nokia?

On your calculator? Or on your calculator? Yeah. I was going to say on your Nokia. Absolutely. My first cell phone was one of those little like blue, little like light blue, baby blue Nokia's. Love the snake game.

I feel like he was playing like snood. Remember snood? I do. Yeah. That seems like something Bobius would do. Could just be like a like a class. like, like Mario,

why not one of the Mario games? Maybe he's been Kirby. Petrus. Tetris or Kirby? Tetris or Pac-Man? Yeah, Tetris or Pac-Man? That feels right.

But it has to be something kind of dot-matrix on that interface. So that's why I'm thinking like the snake game or Tetris or something like that. I like it. Tetris. Beautiful stuff. Well, hopefully we'll see him playing Tetris in real life soon.

Sweet Mobius. They realize best minutes is taking control the system. That's what happened. wasn't that Mobius wanted to play Tetris again. So they run to find timely. All right, we got to get them back. Everybody winds up standing over this sad, dropped, discarded hot cocoa cup. He realizes that Rensselaer's back. Mobius, who is now crucially armed with the D90s time stick, Joe, which will be important.

Mobius thinks that they took timely back to the timeline. But Loki who's got the time stick now, he knows better. He says she wants the TVA there. still here. And this is like his version of what Sylvie said to her last episode, right? Like, I'm starting to realize it's power for you, isn't it? Like, they can see Ravona clearly, Sylvie and Loki. And on the one hand, like, the fact that he understands her psychological profile makes sense to me. On the other hand, this is some real like Bennett a comeback back Sherlock moment where he's just like, based on this puddle of Coco here, we can deduce that A, Red Slayer's back. B, she's taking

timely. No, not to the timeline. They're here still in the TVA based on the spatter. Did you, I've been meaning to ask you, did, speaking of things you really like, did you think that the particular silhouette of the cocoa splatter looked like the bloodstain from emerging in the snow from John? Oh, that it was dragon wing flush, maybe howling wool said? Yeah, I did. I did. My final, sir. And then the last little bit of table setting we have here before we get into like the climactic stretch of the episode is that Brad has brought Victor back to Rivona,

back to Miss Minutes. He rips off a, it's just incredible. Thank God you're both okay. And goes right back into, to borrow a lokiism, confidence trickster mode. He's trying to, he's trying to work the con. And Ravona is like, absolutely not. Joe, it's time to close the loop on the elevator.

Loki prune. I have to say, not in a tremendously climactic or satisfying way. Yeah. I hope when Loki and Sylvie next come together, it is more. That is funny. Phrasing. I, um, okay, yeah. So like, Loki gets the elevator.

Elevator doors are opening. Loki wanders away kind of for no reason, honestly. But we do see the camera move. We had a listener email asking, like, who could have possibly? And like, we both agree, I think that this is Miss Minutes, sort of spying on everyone through the cameras. And thus shuts the, I mean, we hear her, but she shuts the elevator door trapping Sylvia on one side and Loki and the other.

So he has to take the stairs. And that brings us to the loop. She called his name, Joe, and he asked if she was okay. I know. Genuinely. I just want it to work out for these two crazy kids. Like just like that instinct when they're separated to be like, are you okay? It made my heart melt.

They're giving us little crumbs and I'll take every little pie crumble that they want to give us. Did you like the callback to the tech savvy? The tech savvy season three. She's no Mary Sue. She knows her way around. Okay. So then we cut. to the Loki that we saw in the previous episode running around trying to stop blitching through time,

needing to get pruned. And we come to the almost exact same scenario we thought that we would have, which is that Loki in the future prunes Loki in the past. As you said earlier in this episode, maybe that came a little earlier than we thought. We thought that maybe it might be like a finale moment. Here we are in episode four. It happens. I think I wanted something just like a little bit more, like a little bit more Harry and the Patronus thing where like Loki's like something bigger in that moment. I know I could do it. I already done it.

It was just sort of like he was just sort of like, oh yeah, enter me. You know what I mean? And then OB is on the phone. Like who was calling on the phone, it's OB. Like I don't care that that is like, but it was just, but it was more like Loki's choice to prune himself. I wish had felt like a little bigger of a moment for him like that there were some stakes attached to it rather than like, oh, I know what to do next.

Though, I mean, I have some people in interpreting it sort of interpreted as Loki, that that moment gives Loki confidence to be like, this is all going to work out. It's already worked out. We've done this loop once before kind of with the same walkout onto the platform move. It all worked out in the end for us. So it'll work out again, you know, when Victor goes out there a little bit later. But yeah. Yeah.

And he even says to Sylvie, right, like, I promise you this will make sense. So there is this like, I have my arms around this aspect to it. Yeah. I got this. Yeah. I felt that we, I think, I agree with everything you're saying. I think it was actually like really the phone call gave me that. Like, oh, okay.

Just so B calling being like, what's taking you guys so long? Where are you guys? Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. Yeah. And I love, I loved O.B. being like, uh, yeah, I would do this except it would allow magic in the TVA and look in something together. Turn it off. Like comedically and just sort of like, yes, now the Loki's get to do magic in the TVA. Yes, absolutely. Which also feels like it might be

yes, it pays off right away with the enchantment but also feels like maybe based on the loom exploding at the end could be really important that their powers are active. I don't know. Like that's more theory corner to protect them, I guess. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. let's enchant Brad lights are popping Miss Minutes knows something else is up Brad is sent off to explore and Miss Minnitz realizes

that she's losing her cognitive facilities she puts it she uses her final seconds to slice to the heart with one eye only I only have moments left Victor I need to tell you tell you I need to

to tell you, you'll never be him. She's glitching into these increasingly retrograde forms. Yeah. I need to tell you, tell you, I need to tell you'll never be him. Yes, it was just like scary machine at the end. And okay, so which of the, like the X's in the eyes, the one full eye and the other hollow eye, like which, which are these glimpses of a prior misminute's form or a disintegrating Miss Minutes' form like unsettled you the most, but also like what does she make up because she goes...

How is it not the gaping eyehole? One eye hole is really disturbing. Come on. Yeah. What does you think of like, so the final form she takes is just a clock face, right? Like a watch face. Talking about time. And then fades away completely.

It kind of poofs out of existence. And we see all of the faces of Kang that bronze etching. It just had a real King dynasty setup feel, right? It's like, this is the thing that is waiting for you, all these other gangs. You'll never be him. Feels like something you say to someone that pushes them towards being him, you know? We're just like, yeah, that or one more reminder that like, gang prime, you know, he's still the, he's still out there waiting.

I mean, if Victor isn't king, I've seen nothing in this episode that tells me that Victor is not going to be in time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, him turning into a pile of spaghetti, but we'll talk about that in theory. That'll be fine. Brad is going down a dark hallway.

Loki is loring him with this like mocking, hey, you want to rematch? Yeah. The way that Brad is swinging this baseball bat, I have never been so sure that before Brad Wolf became the star of Xeniac, our guy was like at least like a high A ball minor league player. He's got lefty power. He's got lefty pop. I think he's got some hip generated bat speed. I just like, I need to spin off with Brad in a baseball movie. Totally. He's an idiot, so he's instantly duped. And Sylvie just sneaks up from behind. He uses the Brad pruned from behind, but it's the enchanted from behind. Raps her fingers around

his face and enchant them. And then he goes and prunes Ravona. This a lot happens in a really short stretch here. You can't just say he then knows. and produces Robona. You have to shout out. Come here. You have to shout out Rafael Cassell's impression of Helen de Bonham Carter's impression

of Hermione. Like this was real Hermione's Belatrix's impression because it's him doing a Sylvie impression. Come here. And he comes in, flipping the bat, you know what I mean?

Oh, I didn't think I'd see you again so soon. Like, it's just... Unbelievable stuff. I'm sorry. He's great. fantastic. He is wonderful. If I were Ravona, I would not have gone to whisper with this clearly

enchanted and off bread. I don't know if you want to save this for Theory Corner, but obviously she's pruned, so she's going to go to the void. Will Aliyahs recognize Ravona? This is my question. Because if she was really in this position of power alongside He Who Remains, and Eliath is like, he who remains is

tamed beast, is she going to have to survive Aliyaheth? Or do you think there's a that a life is going to be like, it's my old pal, Ravona Renslayer, welcome back. Here's the door, into the citadel at the time. Will the smoke monster recognize

Jacob or not? What do you think? That's a last reference. I think if anyone has a shot at the end of the world, it's Ravanna Renslayer. And I would, if I were Sylvia, I would just stop sending her there.

It's a good, no. it's a good note, Joe. Yeah. You're right. She just sent her right back there. She just sent her right back to the same spot. Incredible call out. Yeah.

Okay. I sent her via he who remains his tempad back to the Citadel at the end of time. She pretty much immediately returned to the DVA. Let's run it back. I mean, at least this time, Miss Minutes is not, you know, going to be very helpful in theory. I hope this is not the end for Miss. minutes. I mean, it can't be. Can't be. All right. Final push. We're in the end game

now. We're in the heart of the TVA, Joe. We're in the heart of the TARDIS. Any other Doctor Who thoughts that you would like to offer up here as we enter the heart of the TARDIS? I just have to say that if you're not watching Doctor Who, there's literally like an energy core thing that is called the Heart of the Tartis. So for them to call this episode the Heart of the TVA could not be more of an overt. Yes, we know. We also watch Doctor Who. moment for the Loki creators. Yeah. Delightful.

Delightful. Doctor Who, it's a great show. You should watch it. I'm just saying, okay. Having the time of my life. Having the time you wind me of my life. They tell Victor, you got to stick your head into the scanner thing. We need your temporal aura. He is, he's afraid.

I thought this was actually really sweet. They all try to calm him. Like, Mobius takes his glasses. It was this real, like, gesture of, teamwork and camaraderie and support and belief before things really go horribly wrong. But even then there's this ominous note that's entwined with the tenderness. Because when he does stick his head in there, what do we hear? Welcome, he who remains.

And like, yeah, we get it. The variants have the temporal aura. But it's hard when you hear that to not be like, shit. Again, are we on a loop to Victor becoming he who remains? So that was upsetting. not as upsetting as what happens next. The door is open. The blast doors open.

They see how bad it is out there. It's fucked up out there, Joe. It's bad. Times are desperate. Without hesitation, Loki says, I'll go. I'll put on the suit. I'll do it. And my heart's changed.

I was so proud of our guy. Because he's changed. You know I think Loki's changed. That's why I don't want him to have a backslide. I was so proud of him here. This was really wonderful. Victor says, no, it should be me because, like, if something goes wrong, I can fix it. If something goes wrong, I can fix it.

And then he said, time to be brave. And my heart melted. He said it to Mobius. He said it to himself as he walked down. He put on the suit. He stepped out. And the instant, the instant that he did, he was spaghetified. Spaghetti.

Joe, we had been warned about spaghettification, but that was on the Loki side of it, the pulling through time. Have you heard about how if you fall into a black hole, you turn into spaghetti? The threat heading down the gangway for Mobius in episode one was your skin peeling off. But as we're warned in this episode, the temporal radiation, it's just so that's bad. It's bleak. It's way worse than it was. And every single part of Victor Timely is instantly turned into strands of Bucatini, just right away. How shocked were you by this? Like, how did you respond? What did you think when you saw this?

Did you gas? I regret to inform you that Thursday evening, I went to go see the Ares concert movie on the front of mine, which means I did not see this episode right away, which means as soon as I got out of the Ares movie, several people had already tweeted at me. Oh, my goodness. Anyway, so it was spoiled for me.

So I did not have the real-time experience of this. but it was still cool, a cool, goopy moment, but I didn't have a, because I did not watch the screener right away when it dropped. Mallor, what was your experience? I did not anticipate Figuero Timely dying in this episode, certainly not in this fashion. So I was like, wow, man, they're really going for it. I thought this was a great end of conclusion to the episode,

and obviously then it, it's not just the spaghettification, It's we pan back to the just shock and horror on everybody's face inside as they're like, what went wrong here? What do we miss? What do we do? And the loom implodes. Like, it happens. The thing they've been trying to fend off unfolds in real time.

And this rush of light, this is a shot you talked about earlier. We zoom in on Tom Hiddleston's face and Loki's eyes as their doom is hurtling toward them. And then we cut the sound is sucked out. And we cut to like five or six seconds. of fade to black. So I rewatched, it's being lost. I rewatched

the episode where a character all bloody takes a rock and sets off a bomb for a very consequential turn of the plot in Lost.

And in that episode, we fade to white and it's moments of silence in white. And then we get the like trademark lost, but it's over a white screen, whereas lost was always over a black screen. And so I felt like this was another, this felt like a lost homage to me. Yeah, absolutely. And a soprano's omelage,

but. Well, yeah, when the journey kicked in, I was like, oh, we're just doing the sopranos now. Sure, fine. Yes, it's difficult not to think of that stretch and lost. Lauren, our listener Lauren, wrote in about this shot and she said of Hiddleston's face. She says, it took me a second to realize what this final shot got, why this, what about this final shot got me besides Hidleston's incredible acting? I think it's because all the other times Loki, quote, died the MCU. He had either accepted it or directly caused it. In Thor one, he obviously let go intentionally in anger, sadness after Odin said, no, Loki. In Thor two, which I love so much, and I'm glad your podcast except for it. I'm not our podcast. Hell you, Lauren. Just matter.

Let's ride. Yes. Oh, God. He takes a deep breath before going right after a curse, he then stabs him. Then, of course, in Infinity War, he does that whole speech. Long story short, in episode four, this Loki's been working so hard to fight their destruction. He promised Sylvie, that's the key part. He promised Sylvie.

Things would make sense eventually after he prune himself. And then all the talk about having hope, faith, their plan would come to fruition. And it doesn't. And, ugh, it's so devastating. And Loki is too stunned to function. it's so different than his other deaths. Yeah, and like crucially to Lauren's point, this is Joanne again, crucially to Lauren's point,

like so many of other the Loki deaths are like fake out deaths. Like not what happens with Thanos, but then, you know, like, it does feel like a, like a your god is dead kind of moment where it's just sort of like, Loki's like, well, surely if I run around and work hard enough and use every brain cell, you know, to my, I can fix this or stop this or get out of this. I get out of everything.

I'm Loki. I can figure it out. And the fact that he had to confront, like, I couldn't figure this out. I couldn't protect this thing I was trying to protect. And I couldn't fulfill the promise I made to Sylvie. Like that all that sort of chasing around on his face, a great, great shot, great actor. Wonderful. Is he going to stop trying to fix it?

We doubt it. So let's go to Theory Corner. If you've been wondering where all the listener emails are this week, they are all jammed here in Theory Corner because we've got so many great, like, theory-ish emails. Can I start with some of the excerpts from this interview that Eric Martin gave to HR? Absolutely. Yeah. So head writer, Eric Martin, an interview with THR, talking about sort of what happens next. Because as the men I boys were pointing out, these four episodes went out to, critics in advance. We didn't watch, we watched the first two, but not all four. And now everyone's

in the dark, right? So this interviewer, I think it was Brian Davids over at THR, asked Eric like sort of what's going on? And he says, this is the pivot point of the season of Loki's story here. And a lot of times these pivot points can seem like the end of the journey. Obviously, we have two more episodes and this journey is going to continue. And it's not going to be the straight line that we expect. and the interviewer asks, are there going to be consequences to that moment? And Eric Martin says, yes, this is not something that's just a piece of plot. This is part of an overall story tapestry that we built. There's a lot going on this season, but everything's purposeful.

There's meaning in all of it. Interviewer says, any final teases for the rest of the season? And Eric Martin says, I think the best is ahead. Our season builds and builds. And I think five and six are the best episodes of the season. So that is going to inform a lot of what we talk about going forward. But I think what we can extrapolate from that is that we're about to see, I mean, bolstered by this new season trailer that dropped literally minutes before we started recording that we watched a couple times. But what seems to be clear again, you're in theory corner.

This is speculation corner. We know no spoilers. Is we're about to get some wacky time loop stuff. Even more so, much more so than like Loki prunes himself. Seems like that was just priming us for some time looping. that's going to spiral and spiral and spiral on itself either just next week or perhaps for the rest of the final two episodes. Right.

So, yeah, this reminded me of what you brought up last week about the comments from the creative team about how the shape of this season is very specific to this season and not necessarily the larger MCU and our little brief discussion about how true can that be? Like, how true can that possibly be? And it's all my mind here as well because there's a version of this

that is like just an incredibly fun and adventurous and riveting and philosophically stimulating journey through different scenarios and different outcomes and different ripples, right? The one thing you do differently has a bearing on all sorts of sprawling futures and it's inside of the show

and feels like it pertains to these characters and somehow only them. And then there's a version of that that feels impossible. And then we start to think about like, well, so what does this mean for maybe a larger like MCU reset and the question of the multiverse and how it functions in the MCU and the path to the multiversal war that like and the and the the the the the the king dynasty, the reign of king, right? I think you mean a multiversal war.

Multiversal war. Great stuff. So this is, I'm so interested in this. I know. I completely agree. It could be, it could be a masterpiece or it could be a disaster piece. I want to shout out our listener, Sarah, who sent this email like pretty much right after the episode. So like, before the new trailer. Yeah. Which is wild. Yeah. Before a lot of theories came out. Sarah was really quick on this email.

This email is titled, one of my favorite email titles all the time. He-Lyme Pie Nexus events at the TVA, parentheses theory corner. So Sarah writes, my theory is that this last episode of Loki season two, episode four, was almost shot, quote, choose your own adventure style for a reason. Each character was presented with a choice,

and I could almost imagine branch timelines forming from each choice. Sylvie taking a wrong turn into pie room, Moby is shamed into not having pie so he had cocoa. Victor staring longingly at the cocoa and not focusing on the loom modification attempts. The guard volunteering to take him to the cocoa, which resulted in the guard's death.

Victor insisting on being the one to fix the loom, which resulted in his spaghettification. Brad decided to go against docs, which resulted in Sylvie enchanting him and him doing the buzz, buzz stick thing. I forgot the word to Rivona. With each of these, there was a pause, a hesitation, which if the sadistic misadmits taught me anything in the first episode,

means that there was a choice made and a branch created. So my theory is, somehow, someone, probably, the gods, survive and try to go to variance of some of these characters and try to recruit them from the very recent past and an attempt to salvage the loom. That's why there is the one image of Loki and the crew, and it looks like he's holding a cord. My thought is that they try to send something out to loom, like a corded Roomba or something. Hey, a lumba, so that doesn't, so that someone doesn't die while they stretch out the rings on the loom to handle more timelines. Anyhow, if that works, then they can each maybe go to or visit their respective timelines. Mobius

gets to jet ski and chill with Jack, who I agree is his son. Sylvie gets to have her glorious mullet goodness at a record store. B-15 gets to hopefully say something other than all those people and lives. And sweet Eugene Cordero gets to pillboy it up in Jacksonville with Jason Mendoza.

Bortles! Bortals! So that's Sarah's tremendous email that, again, I cannot state enough, came out well before the trailer that seems to completely validate this concept. part of this. Yeah. So run us through what we see in the trailer,

which we should say definitely also includes footage we have already seen already, but inside of the question of, well, have we? Or will they be in some way like reliving some of those moments? Like are they new versions of that, of those same moments? Or is it just a mashup of footage from,

like from prior episodes and new footage? But we see, we see, we see the lives, Joe, right? Yeah, we do. We get to see Mobius at the Pleasure Barge Emporium. Yes, that's exactly what it is. Jomey's Wish on the Midnight Boys in this idea of like everyone is maybe going to get rebooted back into their own individual timelines. Is this idea, he wanted like what he's called like an Ocean's 11 sort of rounding up the usual suspects to, you know,

And there is a section in the trailer where Loki says, I'm going to need everyone, or I think, right, or does Obie say you're going to need everyone? Anyway. Loki says it, and we cut to all of their faces. And then we cut to his face, Obie's face, Victor Timely's face, Sylvie's face, Moby's his face.

TV ears? Assemble! Right, exactly. For me, it struck me more, less as like an Ocean's 11, though that's a great comp, rounding up of folks and more

I was thinking about again I'm going to reference lost here there's an entire season of lost where someone has to go wake people up out of

an alternate reality in which they're extremely comfortable and happy and has to sort of wake them up and say like I understand

that you're comfortable and happy here but there is something a greater plan here and you got to wake up and come with me. And so if that's what Loki, maybe just Loki or Loki and Sylvie or whoever has to do in order to like, you know, snap, like wake Mobius up out of the Jetsky utopia. He has found

himself in or whatever and say, I understand you're happy here, but we need you for, I need you to remember who you are for this other thing that we need to do. That's what it feels like to me. Yes. So do you think, so clearly, I guess we shouldn't say clearly, but it seems from the trailer that Loki is in possession of the facts and his memories. So is that because he, unlike Mobius, Casey, etc., has not constantly been reset? Like, he's not actually like susceptible maybe to some sort of, or is it because of his magic? Is it because his magic was activated? Because he was unstuck in time. Because of the time slipping. Yeah. We watched him time slipping the end of the season, and we watched him fix it quite quickly.

And you were like, fun fact, we see him do more of that in the trailer. So like it seems like that, I mean, it could just be their god powers, but it seems like we see Sylvie in another life. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And with Sylvie, though, interesting is like maybe she's just like, I prefer it here. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't know my head on the leather couch and listen to my records.

Good. I got what I wanted. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I was going to mention the time swimming too because I think it does feel like that was the most likely purpose of that the opening stretch for Loki and that it will like enable him to navigate time and maintain awareness in a way that nobody else is able to do. He is a special boy.

So to your, and I'll try to ask this, I think your effort to, you, um, effort to, avoid loss spoilers for people given how long ago lost ended. Continues to astound and amaze me. I think it's wonderful. I'm not quite as capable of it as you are. I'll try to ask this in a way that doesn't spoil loss things so I don't know how to. Do you think then based on that comp you're making, which I think is very top of mind, I felt that too.

Does that point you in a certain way toward like whether our characters are really actually back in their lives? or in some sort of other, like, alternate. I don't know how to ask this about, yeah. Sort of space. Yeah. You know what I'm asking. And anyone who has seen Lost will know what I'm asking,

and I'll keep it big and like that. I'm curious. If that is the comp, then do you think that points us in a certain way? I think they're actually in their lives. And this is going to have to be, this going to be this ongoing. And it comes back to Brad's decision,

this idea of individualism versus collectivism, right? Do you do pursue what would make you happy, be it fucking Brigitte d'Bardo or selling Jetskeys? Or do you do what you need to do for, you know, the greater good? And so, and that's the whole thing about lost is like, I understand you're happy here, but there's something bigger going on, right?

Brad, I understand you want to do this. I think they have to be in their real, contrary to lost, right? I think they have to be in their real lives. It would give it more weight. Yes. I want to bring up Back to the Future 2, again, surprising, because honestly it's the least of the three

Back to the Future films, but there's two options for this time loop that they're about to do, which it seems that they're about to do. And to Sarah's email, it feels like they're going to do it and they're like, okay, let's make this, like, different choice here.

Right. Like, we see them back in the, in the heart of the TVA, like, we see a suited figure marching down the gangway. It appears to be timely based on who's not in the shot. Loki appears to be podcasting. He's like, holding a, to the cord point in the email, he's like holding a microphone. Yeah. It's a microphone.

It's not a Lumba. It's a microphone. Yeah. And he's like, the button sticks. You got to stick the, you know, but it's like, what, but what are the choices that they have to make that are different? And I agree. Like, it has to be the cocoa.

It has to be the pie. Because, like, they're so weird. The cocoa fixation is so weird that I feel like it has to be these various things. And it seems from the two similar scenes where Loki's like, I don't know anything, but I'm a god. I catch on quickly. We see it twice. It seems like, let's go again. From the top, we're going to do this again.

And this time we're going to get it right. Whatever decision we need to make this time, we're going to get it right. So that might just be like a clean loop through time. Or we could get, and Loki pruning himself was sort of a version of this. we get one of my favorite things, which is characters we know creeping around the margins of a story we've already seen, which Martin McFly does in Back to the Future 2,

which is just sort of like creep around the corners of the plot of Back to the Future 1. I love that in a timey-wimey kind of story. I mean, you know, Prisoner of Ascaband, obviously. Like, that's another good one. Shout out Buckbeak. Shout out, oh, we're the ones who threw the thing. Anyway, okay.

Can I read this email from our listener, Dawn? Please. This is a cultural blind spot for both Mallory and yours truly. So when it comes to time loops and stuff like that, we don't have access to this. So I appreciate our listeners sometimes running in. But it's the Stephen King Dark Tower series, obviously, a hugely influential on Lost in the first place.

But Don wrote, I'm a big fan of the Stephen King Dark Tower series of books other than maybe inclusion of the author and his own story, but I'm not going to dwell on that. I was thinking about the Ka is a wheel of it all, free will intruding or fighting against fate that is being engineered by someone at a higher level. Roland being forced to go through his giant loop where he cannot fix some of his original sins, the death of his love, the death of his mother, or the breaking of the original Katte. We don't know how many times he has failed his quest with Eddie, Susanna, Jake, and Oye.

But the next time he is going through the loop, he has something he didn't have before, the horn of Eld. How does he end up with the Thorn, who decided that he had learned enough on the last loop to allow him to something that he lost before being inserted back in that moment of his timeline. Ka, the tower itself. I'm sure the people have thought of the other obvious links between Loki and the Dark Tower, including the Doris Other Worlds slash realities.

So this is sort of kind of what I was having alluding to earlier. It's like, what is different this time on the little loop? And I say Little Loop. That's a Westworld illusion. Like the little loop that Loki and Sylvie and he remains find themselves on. And I have to believe in the truth. spirit of lost that it has to be like love and connection, right? Like the Loki's working, only the Loki's working together. Defying the like box that the world has tried to put them in

can break them out of the of the loop. I just wish we had more than two episodes for this. I know. It's like, I feel like this is such a delicious and tantalizing concept and to have to have left us with only two episodes to play this out before whatever next seismic event that sets up future phase five installments

and or third season of Loki is like talk about something I'd have take a do-over on if we had a time loop. I know exactly. So my understanding of Don's email is that Roland our gunslinger

gets a thing, the horn of elves, a thing, an object, that in this version of the loop allows him to triumph. And I, I think, or the Dark Tower might be one of those series where, like, there never is actually triumph.

Anyway, I think that's what happens. And so I would say instead of a thing, I'm a guffin, I think it has to be like a character revolution. And a defiance of the thing you've always been told you are would be a nice way to. And I'm not saying that's all that bigger thing doesn't necessarily all have to happen in the final two episodes of Locke. it could be what King Dynasty is about. We don't know. There's a lot of King question marks going on in the MCU right now for various reasons. But I don't know that they need to tie,

like, every single thing up in a tidy bow before the is all over. Though, if they bleed it into King Dynasty, that would mean the MCU is in a place where they're assuming that the people who are watching their big movies will also be watching their TV shows. And I'm not sure that's something that they can bank on anymore. But I mean, but that was also the case with the, that was, remember at like the time during season one, it was like, well, are we really going to, everyone was so sure that we were going to see the arrival of King.

And then there was like the, well, but in a show, will we? And then they did it there. That was when it happened, you know, and that was when the multiverse cracked open. Did it again in quantumania. And they also cracked the multiverse open again kind of in multiverse of madness. and Spider-Man. So I think they're trying to have it both ways. Last and not least, I want to read this email from a different

Lauren that I really loved about perhaps Loki's future, like, a way to fix the TVA, etc. Okay, anyway. So Lauren says, it is my understanding that in the North North Smith, Loki has an affiliation with weaving. He's credited

with weaving one of the first nets, which he eventually was caught in. And the word Loki's animology has relation to his role as the creator of Tangles loops and knots as the weaver of the net. There's been a lot of emphasis on Loki's role as a god this season. In episode two, he reminded us that he is the god of mischief. Last week, Mobius notes he will always forgets he is one of the gods.

And when explaining Loki and Sylvie to Victor, Ivona calls them Norse deities, this episode he reminds the Lee of the same. All of this being said, I think the symbol of the loom, a weaving instrument is intentional and would like to suggest, rather than the season ending with a loom being repaired, Loki takes the role of the loom as a weaver of timelines. Not only would this be a nod to his role as a weaver in a full circle moment of the burdens of godhood, but it may also have some connection to the comics as well.

In Loki Agent of Asgard, another story that deals a lot with identity and time loops, after reality is destroyed in an incursion, not dissimilar to what happens to the loom, Loki reinvents himself as the god of stories to break the loop of his inevitable corruption into the villain King Loki. Since the theme of this season seems to be about inevitability and a capacity for change, and we seem to be in a time loop of our own, I think it would be fitting end for Loki to claim the title of Godd's stories.

They finally break out of the loop set for them by He Who Remains. To make this email needlessly even longer, here's the quote from Agent of Asgard, I think, summarizes the idea. Quote, what is a lie verity? A lie is a story told, that's all, and we can rewrite our stories, all of us, write our own happy endings, our own redefinitions. We don't have to be what we're told to be, even by ourselves. but if you really want to change,

you can't just trick yourself into thinking you already have. That's a trick never worth playing. I have a friend who believes in me. I have a brother whom I love. I am my own and I will not sit long in any box built for me. Let's all, let's tell a different story. Let's be something new.

End quote. I love this. I love this idea that, you know, this goes back to like we were talking about that. What does the future of a non-bark-to-the-ground TVA looks like? And if it looks like Loki takes control, the TVA as a weaver of timelines.

I think that's a really cool idea. I talked about this concept when I talked about, we were talking about Asoka, back when we kind of thought we were going to get something different from the finale. I was talking about this idea of like a person becoming a guardian role, taking on a guardian role or taking on, and I couldn't think of a good example. Then someone later, a listener, Rick, emailed me.

And he's email me with this example. when pirate legoland takes over for Davy Jones role as the captain of the flying Dutchman I'm like yes pirates of the Caribbean that's a good example there's other examples that I can't think of but I was like that's a perfect brilliant example but this idea that like Loki or in my perfect version of this Loki and Sylvie together become the weavers of the loom become the TVA essentially um become the gods of story um I love that idea that's brilliant any thoughts or feelings you have about that all I've been just right in those chairs that

He remains wanted them in and tempted them with. You hate it. No, I think there's a way that that could be lovely and wonderful. I think like I just am very open-minded about it. I think I'm more inclined

to want Loki to reject the seat of power than try to assume it in a different way. But we'll see. I'm open. I guess I just feel like there's a difference between a guardian and a ruler, you know?

Yeah. Again, which brings us back to Lost in this idea that like someone has to be the guardian of the island, someone has to like, whatever. And so I just like, I don't think of the character who winds up the guardian at the end of Lost as like an all powerful, you know, ruler. He's someone who's protecting. But in the efforts to protect, like, those characters always end up making other people their pawns.

Not always. Often. Often. Not in the case of loss, right? Often. Often. Often. Often.

It just makes me nervous. Often. I understand this. Okay. Intriguing. We'll see what we have time for in two episodes of television. Great point. Boy,

great point. They got a lot to do. Hopefully we'll have future seasons of Loki, but like, are we going to get a third season of Loki before like 15 other MCU installments? Who knows? Maybe. I guess it's possible. Yeah. Okay. Rapid fire through the rest of our sections. Any other theory corner? Fodder? No. Easter eggs. Did you have a favorite this episode, Joe?

Yeah, I'm going to do an impression of it. Are you ready? Ah, uh, ah. It has to be Miss Minutes evolving from her, Dono DNA, Mr. DNA impression to her Dennis Nedry impression and other Jurassic Park. Good stuff. Shout out. There's a lot of Jurassic Park. You know, a lot of like someone turned the gates off in the rain sort of a vibe of this episode, everyone running around.

So we have to go like flip the breaker and so like, like there was just like a lot of Jurassic Park stuff in this episode. How about you? I'll go with Protocol 42, you know? I loved it. Love to think of Earth 42 and Spider 42 and Prison 42 and Order 66. Delightful. Whigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson.

T.M. Do you wear weeks? This is actually wigwatch TM with our listener, Maria, TM, who wrote in all caps. No time was Mabase's wig more noticeable than when the light of the world was shining upon him. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. There was a moment where when I was watching the trailer for the rest of the season, I thought, was the wig choice. Because, you know, you had observed early, like, why the wig now and not the wig before.

I was like, maybe he's going to have, like, radically different hair back in pleasure barge land. But no, it's not appear to be the case. He does, you will not also be rocking a mullet, unfortunately. Damn, sad. Netflix subtitles, Joe, if this episode had Netflix subtitles. The best. Great stuff. Well, cheers for this one.

Lysa Aaron expresses her last. drop of milk as a rest of TVA. Crunch is doing. Oh, boy. That's an evocative one. Yeah. I'm going with Docs to Stens Wetly. Excellent.

Can't believe that that scene was in this episode. Loved it. Time cubes. Wild. This minis looks unbelieffully. Yeah, Jesus. All right. We did it.

Anything else? on episode four. That is it. I'm really excited for the last two episodes. Me too. I can't wait. I seriously can't wait. I feel like five's going to be a banger.

I really hope it's like... Time loop shenanigans. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I hope so. All right. Well, we'll find out in mere days. I'll see you tonight in person

at our live show. Yes. Can't wait. Life in the timeline was that good and life and Hal Savara is as well. Thank you to our favorite timekeepers. Carlos Chiroboga, who is here once again producing this episode for us. Thank you, Carlos.

Arjuna M. Gapal, for his additional production work on this episode. And Jomi Adenaron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, head back into the ring ofverse, catch up on all of the button mash goodness. Get ready for a double dose of midnight boys. Poo, phew! Poo! Joanna and I will be back with you on Friday for our Invincible Season 2 Premiere Pod. Until then.

Let's have a little pie while. wait.