House of R - 'Loki' Season 2 Finale Deep Dive

Episode Date: November 12, 2023

It's all glory with this podcast as Joanna and Mal are here to dive deep into the thrilling conclusion of Loki Season 2! They take a look at their opening snapshot and give their overall impressions of the finale (08:43). Then they dive into their scene-by-scene breakdown of this hour-long conclusion and all of the character beats that they loved (17:53). Host: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And together we host The Big Picture, the ringers film podcast for new releases, career retrospectives, director interviews, movie drafts, top fives, and so much more. Twice a week, we break down the latest releases,

argue about whether movies are doomed, and debate our modern film canon. Listen to The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals. With Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus.

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I know what kind of God I need to be. For you, for all of us. No. Thank you. And welcome to House of Our, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the citadel at the end of time, but also to our newish House of our podcast feed. Joining me today, let's assume she doesn't know much, but she's a fast learner and she's a god.

It's my house of our permanent title Co-host New York Times best-selling author of MCU The Rain of Marvel Studios Joanna Robinson Again

Again Faster Faster But more importantly What's up Bad Babies Bad Baby Oh. Hi.

What I enjoyed to be all that together. Hi. I missed you. I missed you. It's been painful to be away from you for the last few days. I missed you terribly. It's so wonderful to be together to talk about this finale. We're here, of course, to dive a deep into the Loki season two finale. But before we hit the button, it can be a little sticky. Some quick programming reminders. The feeds are buzzing. We're going to be back. The reason we're doing this on Saturday, first of all, it's the finale. We didn't want to wait too long. But we have another podcast on Monday in our usual Loki slot because we will be diving deep into the Marvels. So come back Monday evening for that pod. And then we're also going to be back later in the week at the end of the week for some Scott Pilgrim takes off talk. You'll have that pod waiting for you on Friday. I'm so excited to talk about Scott Pilgrim. Scott Pilgrim, one of my whole time favorite movies now going to be at now is an animated Netflix series that is very, like I've seen it. Mallory hasn't yet. Can't wait to talk to her about it. But it is like, I would just say if you love Scott Pelgram and you're like, do I need an animated Netflix show, Scott Pilgrim, I love the movie so much.

They're doing something like super interesting with it that they're like, will preserve the secret. They're like keeping it behind closed doors. But like it's not what you think is what I will say to tantalize and tease you into watching it. So there you go. Intriguing. I can't wait.

There is a ton going on over on the Ring Reverse as well. The Midnight Boys already have both of their instant reactions waiting for you. The instant reaction on the Loki finale, there is a little bonus Avatar The Last Airbender trailer talk

and some invincible C-So-2 episode 2 talk on there. And then their Marvel's instant reaction is also waiting for you on the Ring Reverse feed. Incredible stuff from the Boys as always. I thought that their Loki finale pod, no surprise was just extraordinary.

Make sure you carve out the time to listen to that. An absolutely wonderful conversation there. The best. That's not all, folks. Jessica Clemens will have her Loki finale breakdown on Sunday. Splash page, new episode hitting both the Ringerverse feed and the YouTube channel. You can watch it on the feed.

You can watch it on YouTube. Check that out. And then Jess and Limburg will be back on Monday with special guests, Van Lathan, to talk about Call of Duty. So what more could you want out of House of Arden, ring ofverse right now. That's just pods a plenty. Joe, how can the people follow along? Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you asked me this question because I'm waiting for it my whole life. Listen, I'm here. Burden with Gloria's purpose to tell you to follow the pod. Why not? What a great idea, right? Follow the ring of verse and follow House of R. Heck, follow child by content while

you're at it. Why not? Okay. Shout out Dave for stepping in for episode five. Just a good job. always wonderful to hear you and Dave, which, as you just indicated, people can do. They can hear you and Dave and Neil any fucking time they want over on trial by content. Gaddam week. And this week's episode on Body Swab movies features a phenomenal email from one Mr. Stephen Allman. So listen. Also, by the way, just quick sidebar, speaking of Neil, Dave and Joanna. If you managed, if Steve managed to edit this podcast faster than any human could ever edit a podcast,

and you manage to listen to it faster than a human or just the beginning of it. Right now, perhaps, while you're listening to this, Dave and Neil and I are going to be at TLC Austin for like an informal podcast hang or whatever. And then we're going to go across the street to Alamo Sathlmar to watch the 8 o'clock screening of the Marvels. So if you're in Austin and not busy tonight,

that is what we're doing. There are seats in the theater. It's just a very informal podcast meeting great thing. And then tomorrow Sunday at the Texas Book Festival at 10-ish o'clock. at the Capitol. We will, Gavin, Edwards, Dave Gonzalez, and I will be giving like a chat about MCU, The Rain of Marvel Studios, and then 11 o'clock in the Big Ten will be signing books.

So if you're in Austin, Texas, come see us. But that's not what you asking you. You ask me, how can people keep on track of everything? So, listen, I already said follow the pod. Why not also follow us on socials on Twitter, which is what I will always call it, on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok. Great stuff all the time from Jomey. Also, you can always email us, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com.

We already have, I already have tucked away in the inbox, a little subbox. It just says the marvels on it. We've got a lot of the marvels emails from you already, but keep them coming so that we can, you know, incorporate your feedback. And then also, yeah, I just want to shout out the listeners for this season of Loki. They've been, like, really in it and on top of it. We got phenomenal emails for the finale and just, like, shout out to the listeners who've been, like, plug in the Loki God of Story.

these ages of Asgard stuff for the last few episodes because how does it feel to be so right, guys? You're great. Yeah. I love it. I love it.

Some ways you can keep in touch and on top of everything. Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. That means it's time for our final programming reminder, which is, of course, our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning

because this podcast, this deep dive, will feature plot points from the Loki season two finale. Season 2, episode 6, glorious purpose written by Eric Martin, directed by Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead, checking it at a robust.

Yeah. 58 minutes when I saw the runtime the way my heart soared. This is, of course, notably the second Loki episode in a run, a total run, across two seasons of just 12 episodes to bear the title, glorious purpose. The season one premiere was called glorious purpose. The season two finale is called glorious purpose.

Once again, A nice little loop there. Lovely. It's wonderful. A little snake in its own tail, perhaps. Where's O.B. To tell us that it's the snake eating its tail there. Also on the table, of course,

anything else that has ever happened in the television series, Loki in any prior episode, anything that has ever happened elsewhere in the MCU, and some Marvel Comics canon. It's all in mix today. Okay. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also.

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. It looks like someone got a hold of the set list. That means it's time to pod. opening snapshot. Joanna Robinson. Yes.

What did you think of this episode of television? Give us a quick taste of your overall thoughts and feelings. This is one of the most exquisite and beautiful endings for a character that I could possibly think of. It hit me just like everywhere. And I was crying at the end. Thanks in so many parts to Tom Hildeson's wonderful. performance. As far as like this season or the episode itself leading up to it, there's like things I obviously enjoyed. I love time loop hijinks. I love all that sort of stuff. There are, I will say,

I feel like there's some characters who were underserved both by the episode and the season. You know, and we'll talk about those as we go. So I wouldn't say it's like a 10-0-10 perfect episode. You're talking about Brad, right? Yeah, I mean, one quick glimpse of my guy, Brad Wolf. What the heck is going on? Oh, by the way, have you ever seen the movie? Have you ever seen the movie Freeway? No. This is Reese Witherspoon, Kiefer Sutherland, a demented movie from the 90s that is like a really gritty, grotty, little red riding hood storytelling. But anyway, Reese Wetherspoon is Little Red gets into the car and there's a guy driving.

It's, they're not actually wolves. Anyway, gets in the car and I'm like, I was watching in the front of my was like, what's this guy? I was named going to be Brad Wolf. And then he was like, I'm Brad Wolverton. And I was like, ooh, so close. So close. Anyway, yeah, not enough Brad is my point. But no, I think, like, if we're talking about how do we wrap up the story of Loki Odinson of Asgard, this is such a not to put too final point on it, like crowning achievement for the MCU for storytelling. And I think that, you know, sometimes when we talk about these TV shows, I don't ever. really gets hung up with this, but I know plenty of people do when they're like, is there going to be enough, you're going to have a Soka and your Asoka show? You know, like, who is this show

really about? And I'm like, I guess if at the end of the day, this is Loki's show. And Loki is the only character that I feel like is like, holy, holy, completely served by the story I'm watching, then like, that's not false advertising. That's certainly the show I signed up for. So, you know, but I had, I'm so excited to talk to you about it. There's so many things we want to say. So without further ado, Mallory Rubin, how did you feel? I mean, I know how you feel, but tell the people how you felt about this finale. The word you used exquisite is the word I would use as well. I thought this was just absolutely beautiful and extraordinary.

It might be my favorite hour of MCU TV. I just thought it was astonishing. I loved it. And I agree with you inside of that bountiful praise that there were plenty of characters who would have loved more time with. And I think ultimately, like, the things that, were so exceptional and extraordinary inside of this finale, in some ways made my like, laments about earlier episodes in the season. Like, I felt those even more keenly because I think

that if we had used our time a little differently to get to episodes five and six, like we didn't get to talk about episode five. But I would have been, I agreed with basically everything you said on the pod. Like, if that had been the season, I would have been elated. And so for all of that to be one episode, it was like joyful. but I wished we had had more of it. And so, of course, there were characters who I felt that way about at the end here, but for Loki,

like a character who we introduced our House of Our Hall of Fame to talk about, our first inductee, because the time that we've spent with him has been so meaningful. And his arc has been so riveting. I can't think of an episode that better rewarded

and honored our time with a character we cared about. I just can't. So, like, that is a, singular achievement. I thought that the beginning of this was like, time me, whime me at its best. I thought a lot of what they did in episode five set up our ability to process and accept everything here in very expert and deft fashion. And I was a blubbering mess in the back half of this episode. I have been relatively composed by my usual standard during our Loki pods. I don't know what the over under is at tears today,

but we will be shutting them, I think. And Steve told us already he's mutual. shooting his mic. So we won't know if Steve is weeping with us, but the thing is we will know. Let's just assume. Because we were all moved so, so dearly by this episode. I can't wait to talk about all of it. I just thought it was, I thought it was lovely. I'm like, so content. So content at the end. Steve's an integral part of this podcast. He is in the like little Mobius, Sylvie, Loki, triad of the center of the heart of the TARDus and the heart of the TVA and the center of time and the temporal loom with us. So, you know, yeah, I'm sure he's, I'm sure he's weeping along with. Do you want to talk now at all about the future, the lack of plans for a third season, anything

like that is like an opening note here? Do you want to save that until after we break down the episode? I mean, I think it's worth, I mean, it sounds very final from, you know, Eric Martin has given at least one, if not a couple interviews talking about how he doesn't expect there will be season three that this felt like two books or two halves of a book, book one, book two, season one, season two. And then, you know, Tom Hittleston was on Fallon talking about how this is like, you know, the culmination of a 14 year journey for him for the character, you know, he was like, I was 29 when I was cast in 42 now. Like, this has just been like, you know, just like a really, a really big part of my life and talking about it like with a sense of an ending. So like it, it feels like

this is and I feel should be the end for Loki. That being said. Loki the character or Loki the television show? Loki the television show. Loki the character and by Loki the character I mean this Loki. But everything's possible in the multiverse. So if Tom Hiddleston wants to show up and play another Loki in like Secret Wars or something like that, that's fine. But I really feel like this Loki should sat in that golden chair at the end of time for the rest of time.

That's, that's, I really want that to be the end for this character. But it doesn't mean I'm done watching Tom Hiddleston play Loki in some form. How could we ever be finished watching Tom Hiddleston play Loki? How? Ever. Ever. How about you? How do you feel? I think this feels like a beautiful conclusion for Loki, the series.

I expect that we'll see many of these characters elsewhere in the MCU at certain points. The question of whether it's this version or variance. in the multiverse as you, as you noted, I think applies to all of them, not just Loki. I was thinking a lot, even though they're incredibly different tonally of Guardians Volume 3 watching this and how like the two most successful recent MCU installments gave us a note of finality that I don't think we or the people crafting the branched tree of the MCU should take lightly. That said, I will never be ready to say goodbye to Loki, the character.

And I think, like, the performance, everything the character has given us across different installments, film series, paired with different foils, different companions. It's like the great gift of the MCU. So I think it's also been one of the things that has, like, stood the test of reintroduction and part of what made Loki the series so brilliant is that, like, this was, we did say goodbye to Loki Odin's. son and then we said hello and the clever picking up the tesseract and shooting off to a new branch allowed us to do that in a way that felt deeply tethered to the character we had spent all that time with but also like knew something that preserved the thing we already loved and cared about and gave us an extension so I will I think I will just like never cease wanting more of that with Hiddleston's Loki what form exactly it takes I'm completely

open to. And I feel like, yeah, I just feel like the guy, the guy who grew so close to Mobius and fell in love with Sylvie and all that sort of stuff like that. Like, I just want him to stay in the chair. And then any other Loki can do whatever they want to do on their own time loop burden with some glorious purpose or another, you know. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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We have a rich and deep episode to break down. We are, of course, going scene by scene. It's time for the deep dive. Right away, the intro, that Marvel wordmark. It's different. It's running in reverse. Last week we had that fun time-slipping letters inside of the Loki wordmark, and this time we get to travel backward through the Marvel letters that we're so accustomed

to seeing, which is a really neat little tone setter in a meta sense for not only like that time travel rewind aspect of the episode, but for rethinking the idea of how we approach a story that we're accustomed to. So I love those, I love whenever they meddle with the Marvel opener in some way that fits the specific thing

we're about to see and this was no exception. And then we zip Joe through the temporal radiation, down the gangway, right back into the heart of the Tartis, the heart of the island, the heart of the TVA,

to that moment from episode four when Victor Timely was telling himself time to be brave. And this was one of the things that I loved about the episode, is that every time we got to hear something, like hear an audio cue, a beat of dialogue that we had previously experienced

when Loki slipped back into a certain moment, the particular line that he entered on the tail of was always so carefully chosen to set up what particular thing he was going to have to confront or grapple with or think about in that moment. So here it's time for Loki to be brave. It's time for us to be brave. So of course, thinking of Thrones,

Can a man still be brave if he's afraid? A hundred percent. It's the only time a man can be brave. Thinking of that in that, I was absolutely thinking about that Thrones quote, thinking about that in this moment, but also then you hear it later when you watch Loki do his walk. Yes. You hear, even though no one is saying anything, you hear time to be brave or him on the

microphone later, like telling Victor to be brave. You know what I mean? He has to be telling himself that. Do this horrible harrowing, awful. thing he's about to do. But wonderfully brave thing. This wonderfully brave thing. Yeah. Perfect opening note.

We get to see there's this effect where we could see Loki reentering his body. So we can see his consciousness traveling across time. We're not getting two Loki's in scenes. He's zipping back into his body. And he says here in this first new take, I'm back. But like crucially doesn't

pause to tell everybody what's happening, to explain to everybody right here, what is a foot, what game is a foot? yet, which of course makes the moment where he eventually does tell Sylvie what is happening all the more impactful. And he tries to just move Victor timely through the steps with a quickness. He has no idea yet how much work remains, how hard this is really going to be. Centries of work. It turns into spaghetti again. We got a, we always love because of our, if this episode had Netflix subtitles recurring bit, to track when we do get a

Vecna-esque bit of subtitling in the actual episodes. We got a squelching here, Joe. Squelching. I mean, listen. To get to spaghetti. It was wonderful. Victor's Flesh is literally distending wetly, but if they want to go with squelch, that's fine, too, I suppose.

Spaghetti squelches amid. Wetly. Temporal radiation. Dustily. I do. I mean, I do love. That shot is so wonderful because we've already seen him spaghetti. And we will see him spaghetti for many, many times.

more. But I love that first one where like the spaghetti just kind of like drifts back into the room for out of frame. Like it's brilliant. Delightful. I missed the chance last week with episode five to just say yearning tendrils to each other 500 times, especially in the record shop seem.

Those tendrils were yearning, Joe. The record tendrils were yearning, but I will say overall, this is one critique I have with the season. And I already mentioned this. like, does Sylvie just, like, not actually care? You know what I mean? Like, where's the yearning?

I could have done with so much more yearning from Sylvie. I just say, like, later in the episode, not to, like, hop around in time. Later in the episode, Loki does his big move. It's outside. She's like, I have to get out there. And then makes zero attempts to do so. I was like, Kirk and Desmond would be banging on the glass right now. What are you like, where do you think?

Where's the urgency? Where's the yearn? Anyway, that's fine. I somehow suspect that won't be the last time Desmond comes up today. Oh, no. Desmond's got a lot to say about what's going on here. Desmond Hume from Lost, Captain Kirk from Star Trek. Those are the references I was making.

Loki does not immediately upon the spaghetti strands reentering the fold. slip and start over. He takes a beep to ask OB a question. What could we have done differently? And he's setting the template for how the trials across the opening stretch of the episode are going to go. Each attempt is a chance to learn something new, to glean a new insight that he can then apply to the next attempt.

So what's the first lesson? We took too long. Again, faster. And we go, Joe, into what I would like to call the Edge of Heaven Sent day, which is our Loki finale mashup of The Edge of Tomorrow,

Groundhog Day, and Heaven Sent an episode of Doctor Who that we will be chatting about a little bit more momentary. One of our listeners called it last week Loki Die Repeat. Yes, Loki Die Repeat was iconic. So good.

This is great stuff. I love it. I love Edge of Tomorrow. Yeah, it's a great movie. Wonderful film. Wonderful film. We swing into a series of do-overs. Loki's learning a little bit more each time.

The trial phase, Joe, we're going to go through some of the beats, some of the comedy, some of the pain in a little bit more detail, both in the TVA stretch and, of course, the Citadel stretch. But just like generally, structurally, how did you feel about this choice for the episode and for opening the finale in this way? You were anticipating this, of course. But how did you actually enjoy the flow? I thought it was really fun. I mean, it's, you know, they picked a really fun, like, peppy disco tune. Jaunty music. The score and the finale is incredible.

I mean, it always is. Natalie Holt was just like, guess what rents do? Here I come. Like, it's incredible. Truly great. But the disco remix of Beethoven's fifth that plays here. And Beethoven now makes you think of a bootstrap paradox because of our Doctor Who rewatch. Honestly, I was like, Beethoven, bootstrap.

paradox. Here we are. Anyway, I mean, I fucking love time shenanigans. I absolutely do. So I had a great time with this. And then, and then, and then I made like one note, which is when we got to centuries. I don't know if you want to like talk more before we get to that part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Interesting. I'm excited to hear it. Yeah. We'll be there. We'll be there in. Dozens of cakes for Loki, but mere, mere moments for us. Even just on a first watch, I mean, I thought revisiting this on subsequent watches was a real joy. But even on a first watch, like, before we know, before we have full clarity of like how satisfying the ending is going to be and what depth of emotional catharsis is waiting for us in the back half of this episode. I thought this opening sequence was riveting.

It was charming. It was clever. It was well-paced. It was brimming with personality. Like there was just so much humor and so much charisma, which I think is like different. to pull off when you are moving through this much, timey-wiminess, it, like, struck me as the show's version of the Jetsky line,

a beautiful union of form and function. It gave us really everything that we needed to get to where we were ultimately going. I loved it. Yeah, and I let Tom do something that he, like, he hasn't had to have, like, a ton of fun, gotten to have a ton of fun this season. And it reminded me of, like, the opening,

you know, like the season one episode one, where we're just sort of like, he's getting jerked through time or space rather and um but it's just like fun antics of like loki trying to escape this is like antic and it's you know it's very doctor who in that way um you know but to be clear you still wanted to see more of him getting getting jerked through time right that's what you're saying that's what you're saying a few minutes ago bad maybe I've missed you I missed you too my tendrils year for you and you alone

smelling. Yeah. Oh, God. Joe, we get take after take. Take after take. Just a smattering, a sampling of some of the goodness here. We want to go faster. Then, no, we want to go earlier. I would like to spend a moment. I think we owe it to you. Because Brad is not a factor in this episode to highlight the time we do get with Brad here, which is, and after realizing you just go earlier. Loki breaks back into the war room.

He says, Miss Minutes, I know right now you're hurt and you're angry, which was historic. And we could have got a whole pot on that moment. I was like in stitches

laughing so hard. And then we pan to one of the best freeze frame shots of timely Brad Miss Minutes and Rivona. It was just hysterical. A literal cartoon like

plink from Miss Minutes. Great Bradwolf content. If you are a, If you have fallen in love with Rafael Kassell as Brad, I heartily recommend him as a follow on Instagram. In general, on Instagram, we've been

just flooded with glorious content for people who have done projects of the last couple months and have been able to promote it because of the sag strike. And so all this behind the scenes, photos and videos are coming out. Steve and I got to revel in our sister wife,

Shinati, like, zooming around a little car on the set of Asoka, stuff like that. But Raphael just let open the floodgates of all this behind the scenes, Loki photos that are really fun on Instagram. And one thing that I shared with Mallory is that he posted the Loki

logo, but it says Brad. Tremendous. I would buy that sticker. I would buy a Loki sticker that just says Brad, 100%. Yeah. Add it to the list of official merch that you are formally waiting for and campaigning for. Do you think

Dave Van Gogelis text to me right away. He's like, do you think they were saving, they were holding back on the merch? Yeah. Maybe. But they, I mean, they made a t-shirt and a purse out of the first version. But yeah, I'm ready for my volume two, whatever. Second edition. There you go. Second edition notebook. Thank you. Like a little bit of a lighter, a lighter hue. Yeah. A tangerine. Like a cream tangerine, you know? Yeah. Wonderful. Joe, one of the things that we hear Loki say on one of these attempts is, I wasted time. Now the time waste me. What would you like to, what would you like to say about this? It is time for Shakespeare Corner TM with listener, Michal, and I think I but did that.

I always try not to. T.M. This listener who has just been giving us quality emails for all time, always, came through with a real banger this week to let us know via an anecdote that she, years and years and years and years ago, sent a fan letter to Tom Hiddleston. And this is the email. I told Tom Hiddleston a letter. Richard the second was my favorite Shakespeare play and how much I would love to see him in the role.

Both of the, both of these things are still true. I mean, that language, that mouth, quite. I remember that I said this. Bad, baby. Because I got a signed photo back in the mail from the very same Tom Hiddleston. And on the back of that photo, he wrote me a very nice note. And in that very nice note, he quoted the very same line, I wasted time. And now does time waste me from Richard the second that Loki proclaims too timely in the incongruously yet brilliantly funny opening of this here finale episode.

And then she attached photographic evidence of the back of the photo. And there it is in Tom Idelson's illegible scrawl. But legible enough, this quote from Richard the second. So like, do you think jealousy is unseemly and yet it is consuming me right now, body and soul? Imagine receiving this? I know, but do you think Tom just said this? Like, I feel like... Maybe.

He's like, now it's time for me to drop this rich at the second line right into the middle of the... There are a few things in this episode where... The T.S. Eliot later, maybe, perhaps. Yeah, I had that thought of the Elliott as well. Now it's time for Shakespeare Corner T.M. With Joanna Robinson T.M. Hell yes. Richard the second has also been on my mind recently because Amanda Dobbins and I are covering

in the Crown over on the Prestige TV podcast. Have you heard of a lot? Have you heard of it? And we did a Hall of Fame episode. We picked our favorite episode of The Crown, which is the one where Josh O'Connor, as Prince Charles, goes to study in Wales. Also my favorite. I know. It's just because it's the best one.

And in that episode, Josh O'Connor, as Prince Charles, reads the Hollow Crown speech, or recites the hollow crown speech from Richard the Second. And so that's about sort of don't train me. like a king, I'm just a person. I'll talk about that in a second. But briefly to say, the Hollow Crown is also the name of a series of Shakespeare productions of BBC did years ago. Henry's and Richards that they did and they put on TV. Tom Hildleston was in that. He played Prince Hal Henry the 5th, but he didn't play Richard the second. Ben Wishaw played Richard's second. Anyway, here's the key lines from the Hollow Crown speech, which I was literally thinking about when we got to the end of the

episode. He says, for you have but mistook me all this while. I live with bread like you, feel, want, taste grief, need friends, subjected thus. How can you say to me, I am a king? It's like, it's very much like, if you prick me, do me not bleed. Like you, like, I'm a king. This crown is hollow without these other things. And so to see Loki on his golden throne, wreathed in these, you know, golden-veined horns, phrasing, like all this sort of stuff. like that, right? And, um, but he's all alone.

He doesn't have friends. It's a hollow victory, a hollow crown. So, so. Oh, so bad. Wow. Josh O'Connor just, like,

vividly pops into my mind as you're reciting that line. I can see him, like, applying the makeup to the production. Incredible episode of TV. Yeah. I'm like, chills right now. Can you just, like, read me, Shakespeare?

Can we make that a, a pod? Literally any day. And I just sit here and, in heaven. Oh, man. Have I ever told you that when I graduated high school, two of the gifts that my dad gave me were the Ken Burns baseball documentary box set

and then a tomb of Shakespeare. That was like, legitimately 40 pounds. Don't we have the Riverside? Yeah. It's just like so great. We have the same. And he handed them to me.

He's like, these are two central texts for life. Guess what? He was right. He was right. I also got the Riverside, I think for high school graduate. It was at the high school graduation or like, because I know I had it freshman year of college. So I either got it for myself, which is something I would have done. I love this for you.

Someone gave it to me as a high school graduation. This is great stuff. Steve, we're just waiting for you to unmute and tell us when you received your, your Riverside, Jason. Your Shakespeare. We go into a rapid fire series of additional takes. And Joe, it's just spaghettification. and then Loki saying again, time after time, after time, with increasingly forlorn and dejected reactions.

My favorite was the really dramatic sigh and forehead down into the forearm lean. I just thought that was like, what an encapsulation of the agitation of the moment. So it's time to try something else. It's time to go to an earlier point. Introducing Victor Timely to OB in the workshop. comedy from Tom Hiddleston and everyone across this sequence. And because we were going to get to some of the real heart-wrenching stuff soon, we just want to take a minute here to, like, soak up some of the leffity and sort of the laughter

before we are really like feeling the tears later. Steve, can you make us laugh? Oroboris, this is Victor Timely. Victor Timely, this is Oroboros. Guess what? The TVA handbook, you both wrote it. Isn't that amazing? Why are you being so weird?

Oh, Boris! Nice to meet you! Here is a model of the loom which Obie so helpfully mocked up. Everyone, Victor, this model is not finished, okay? There's only one coat of paint on this. Obie, what are you talking about? It's absolutely perfect. Now listen up.

We have to get timely suited up and to the loom. Why? Because you volunteered. You did. You will. Something could go wrong. And you know how they multiply. It works. It'll make sense. You will wear this protective suit, Mobius, you're in luck. It looks like Movis, but it's actually Victor timely.

Victor, me, in this suit, when those doors open, get down the gangway as fast as you can. It's going to take some doing. Is that going to be easy? A lot of temporal radiation. Everybody following. Yes. Good. I, it's all wonderful. Thank you so much for including this clip, Mallory Rubin. But I just think that his delivery of, guess what? The TV handman, you both wrote it. Isn't that amazing?

Historic. Couldn't be better, sincerely. There are a lot of lines that I hope make the Emmy reel, but this needs to be one of them. Oh, my God. This is just peak, Tom Hittleston. Truly wonderful. Truly the best. I thought it was really interesting in this stretch amid the comedy, because I was just cracking up watching this.

To consider one of the. potentially darker undertones that I think they handle in an interesting fashion, which is that like none of the other characters have any agency in this sequence, Loki on a path eventually to preserving and fighting for free will is like leading all of these people time and again down a path through a loop that he knows not just that they will travel, but how they will travel. Like, you know I can only go so many podcasts in a row without invoking devs? And here it is. It's either deaths with the affair.

I'm not going to say it's either devs or dark. Dark will be coming up later today. Fear not. I actually almost mentioned the fair earlier. I swear to God, when you were paraphrasing the Eric Martin framing of like the story in two halves. And I was like, like, like it. Like it's just like instant. I can't help but think about it.

I don't know what's wrong with me. But this is how I think. You haven't heard this episode of The Prestige. Let's do a little time, Joe. If you haven't heard this episode of the prestige covering the crown, no one has. It hasn't been put out yet. But we were talking about whether or not we could be horny covering the final season of the crown. I was like, well, Miss Mallory's horniness or whatever.

And Amanda was like, how could she be horny about the final season of the crown? I was like, first of all, challenge accepted to Mallory Rubin. Secondly, Dominic West is in there so that she can just talk about the affairs, what she wants to. Yeah, exactly. Sheesh. It's only one degree of separation from Noah. I'm always ready. Always ready.

You know me so well. You know me so well, Joe. But yeah, like, they're on those tram lines, those dev tram lines, which are always really, like, harrowing to confront. And I think that this could have gone really wrong in the finale, because in a couple ways, like, one, Loki choosing not to tell them could have played,

ultimately, like he was very content for them to just be past. rather than drivers of their own fate. And I think what it does instead eventually is it heightens the choice that he makes. There's a universe with a Loki where everyone, and this is sort of independent of like, did the other characters, where did the episode serve the other characters enough, but strictly from like Loki's perspective, there's a universe where everyone really is just a play thing to him. And ultimately, like, he avoided that temptation and didn't seek that outcome.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And of course, it also just reinforces that they're on these loops because of He He Who Remains and, like, the maintenance of the sacred timeline. And this is, like, another kind of harrowing way to confront how crystallized and set the trap that he has them in is and how necessary it is to break them out of it. That's a generous interpretation. Thank you. And I'm not sure that I'm ready to throw a lokiy of parade for getting it right literally one time in this episode. However, especially when he could like blip literally anywhere in time and like take his time to like explain to people what's going on or whatever.

Like they put a false urgent clock on it if he can go anywhere in time. That was one of the hindrances along the way the whole season, right? Yeah. But especially like once a character can travel anywhere in time and take all the time he needs to figure something out centuries, then like he could travel. back to that part in season one where he and Sylvia sharing a blanket and talk about maybe we'll like, you know, have a future together. I thought we would go back to that moment. I thought we would go to the blanket moment. I know. And then tell her, listen, this is what's going on, you know, instead of making it that false urgency of like we're in the middle of, I have seconds before she stabs,

he who remains, and I don't have time to explain to her. And I think, you know, your, your dev's, tram lines comp is so good the one that I always keep coming back to because it's a show that I covered so much as Westworld and every time I say on your little loop that's a paraphrase of Anthony Hopkins and something is so

chilling about that show is when Anthony Hopkins character who is the god king of this park when they say things when they say freeze all motor functions to characters that we are like invested in as like people with soul

even though they are technically, like, hosts, androids or whatever, it's horrified to watch them be frozen that way. And the people who are doing the freezing feel incredibly villainous by, you know, doing that. And so to see... Which, of course, will be he who remains later, yeah. He remains, but also Loki to a certain, you know. And so that's like, it's a little... It's upsetting.

Yeah. Yes. I was like, oh, this is dark watching this. Even in this part, just the, like, I'm not going to take time to explain before we even get to the freezing and then kind of, like, worked my way through it, processing it after. But I really think it could have gone badly wrong. And the fact that we're in a like, okay, this is something for us to like noodle on, but

like this didn't undo the entire pursuit, I feel like a sense of relief. Loki just reaches into Victor Timely's bag and pulls out the prototype as Timely is saying, Wizard, Wizard. Let's get going. Let's make this throughput multiplier. Obie says it's going to take a minute, my guy. It is going to take a minute. Okay.

How long? How long will it take you to teach me everything you know? And Obie asked him, how much he knows. This is one of the lines we had got. It was actually, we're always talking about, oh, you know, these trailers, like, we're only going to get glimpses of stuff from, there was a lot of like finale footage. Even back to the original trailers, like, oh, there it is. Here it is. It was kind of interesting to see how many little glimpses and kernels were waiting for us.

Similarly with the recent, the Marvel's trailer. Like, I really feel like this is a case of Marvel feeling like they don't have the luxury of hiding as much of the ball anymore. They have to show a lot in order to, like, hook people. Yeah. Yeah. They had to reveal that Tony Stark and Steve Rogers were main characters and some purple. Talk to Carol Damers. Just kidding.

No, like Tessa Thompson's here. Yes. Yeah. Let's assume I don't know much, but I'm a fast learner and I'm a god. Wonderful stuff for Marguileoki, as always. But what's the actual answer? decades? No. Centuries. And then centuries

later flashes on the screen. There's a lot to say here. Joe, is this where you want to hit one of your laments? Well, I will just, it's not a lament necessarily. It's just a so there are so many comparisons that the show is begging us to make.

You know, there's a literal Star Trek reference a little later on that we will like talk about. You know, the way in which the show is playing with Doctor Who, with Lost, with all or stuff is just like, they're not trying to hide it. So we're not reaching when we make these comps. So having sent an episode you already alluded to, and we'll talk about a little bit more later on.

But the revelation of the passage of time in that episode, which is a time loop episode, is like devastating. And you feel it every second of it on the bones of the character that is experiencing it. And so this is just such a wildly different tone. centuries later, it's still wacky, and I don't, I don't feel the centuries on Logie, the same way I didn't, you know, didn't feel that Ezra really was acting like he had been stranded and another planet for a really long time. And so that's okay, because that's not really the tone they're going for in the episode, but when you're like asking audiences to think of another iconic episode of genre television and you're treating quite lightly what was treated quite heavily in that episode, that was just one little, like, thing that I rubbed up against. I mean, there's plenty of heavy tragedy at the end of this episode to feed us.

So, like, I'm not really complaining. You needed more anguish. No, I actually, I agree. Yeah. I think that, like, when we first saw centuries later, my just kind of reflexive response was, but I want to see every single one of those moments. And I think all of this, like so many,

in a season that was uneven, but broadly we enjoyed and in the final couple episodes that we loved, most of the critiques, not all of them, but many of them could be addressed with more time. Now, would this have been an entire episode? Well, right. And so, you know, this has been a note, this was a fun aspect of this,

because this has been a note that you've really been highlighting all season, you know, when we were in our preview coverage, looking back to the season one finale, and then, like, in that first conversation that, Loki and Mobius have in the season two premiere when he returns. Like the note that Loki is hitting and reiterating time and again for his own benefit, but for other people's two is, I just wanted time to think. It was an impossible choice, but she seemed so certain, how could she be given the possible consequences? I just wanted time to think. And so here it is.

He gets it. And we certainly are with him during key moments of epiphanies and breakthroughs and like achieving some sort of new insight and understanding that helps him reforge his idea of glorious purpose. We're there for that. But I think that the thing that we don't get to, like as you're identifying with the distinction between heaven's sent, the thing that we don't get to see is like, I don't think we can under, like, oh, we can't overstate what it means for a character, even a god, even somebody who has lived this long already and who will live this much longer still to spend centuries of his time. in essence alone, because sure, he's with these people, but not really.

They don't know what's going on. They're just playing out the script, right? Yeah. So there's no new meaningful, like, thing that they are forging together. And he is spending all of that time in this solitary pursuit in order to protect them with no guarantee that it will work. And, like, this is from a guy who rise up, dark world hive, it's time. One of his most famous lines is say goodbye to throw. about Jane because of the way he thinks about the idea of like a mortal life or like connection in any form. Now of course like that doesn't really apply to like people in the TVA but still that's like a foundational thing for him. This day the next it's a heartbeat you'll never be ready. Don't bother getting attached to people because whatever takes them away from you, something will one day and you won't be prepared. So why bother latching on in the first place? And he is spending centuries making sure that those people have what they need. That's an incredible. thing for the character. Wonderful. Amazingly rewarding for us to know he made that choice. How cool would it have been to get to see it? To see some of it or to see just like even the like wear and tear on him.

Release the centuries later cut. Maybe make him grow a beard or something. His hair gets longer. Who knows? More to give him the version of happy's like it's my blip beard. It's my blip beard. It's my centuries later beard. That's the other time I like the word blip. Yeah, the way he says blip. Blip. Blip beard. Blip. Grin on the blip. On heaven's scent.

On the heaven's scent from. So it's not only... Well, I just want to promise it really quickly for folks who haven't been doing the Doctor Who where you're watching us. This is an episode... Why not? Join us. Join us.

We are two weeks away from new Doctor Who. I'm so excited. And we'll allegedly... Can't wait. According to our plan, have a Jody Whitaker episode between now and then. Some point. Anyway, this episode, haven't sent, I was actually talking to our colleague, Rob Mahoney about this early this week because his wife, his lovely wife is a huge Who fan. And he dropped off in the Capaldi season. And I was talking to him, I was like hyping up the episode haven't sent to him. And I was like, many people consider having sent one of the best episodes of Doctor Who. And after that, I got a, I think it was a tweet, not an email from one of our listeners, one of our bad babies, sent me a photo of Who magazine where the, where the Doctor Who fans voted like the top episode, Doctor Who episodes of

all time, and they voted Heaven Sent number one. It's a little Capaldi forward that poll. So like the Capaldi Hyde definitely organized their votes. I love it. You know, Heaven Sent is up there. Blink for a really long time was considered the best. But I think Heaven Sent in many circles has, has pushed past it. And it is, Rob was asking me, he's like, can I just like dip into that one without watching all the things to lead up to it. I was like, actually, I think you can. So if you've never watched an episode, Doctor Who, you might like watch Heaven Senton. I think you can pretty much understand what's going on and you can, because you're

supposed to be kind of lost and figure it out with the protagonist. But this is a person stuck on a loop of, and a hopeless, seemingly hopeless, seemingly insurmountable loop. And at the culmination, we get this clip. And the shepherd's boy says... There's this mountain of pure diamond. It takes an hour to climb it, and an hour to go around it. 52 million years.

Every hundred years, a little bird comes... And sharpens its beak on the diamond mountain. And when the entire mountain is chiseled away, the first, second of eternity, will have passed. You must think that's a hell of a long time. Two billion years. Personally, I think that's a hell of a...

Personally, I think that's a hell of a bird. What are the joys? So good. If you do the Doctor Who rewatch episodes of this, and there's still time. can do it. I, one of the joys of the clips that we pull is like having to listen to the weird background noises that accompany these like wonderful monologues. You're like, what gear was worrying, what hideous monster was stomping down a hallway? Like, what was happening in the background?

Anyway, I love that. It's so funny to like write down the, write out the quote, and it's like a couple lines and then it's like a three minute clip. But that's the point because you watch that character. Yeah. And you, and he is in tremendous. pain as he's going on this like loop. So you watch all that pain etched upon him the way that we don't necessarily see it here with Loki. We see it. I would say we see it later. We got so many emails

from our delightful bad babies who are doing the Doctor Who rewatch with us about having sent. But I just want to shout out listener Matt for the email subject line. That's a hell of a Loki. That's a hell of a bird. So yeah, that's a hell of a little bit. This was like a thrilling moment for me, Joe, because there are a lot of, as you noted, they're inviting the comparisons.

Like these references and homages are very intentional. These foundational texts have inspired the show. We will be talking about Lost More Today. Got some more throne stuff coming. There will be some hairy stuff coming. You had your Shakespeare corner. We've got some poetry corner coming later. There's a lot.

But this was, Heaven Sent was the most prominent thing on my mind in this stretch of, the episode. And that was just such a fun new thing for me as a first time Doctor Who viewer to not just have like my Steve Rogers. I understood that reference moment. Though also also literally I understand. I don't know what I haven't said unless I understood that reference. Like Joe's going to be so proud of me. But to be able to like feel the to feel like the heart and the soul behind that comp because like the unimaginable weight and the time spent

like for what right? It's that it's it's about who thing like to try to reach and save for the doctor for Loki the people that you love and to try to achieve some new understanding about why things happened the way they did and how you might be able to like reforge or reshape them. I think like Loki not resetting with the

room is an interesting thing too because he's like carrying all of this awareness with him. Right. And I was thinking as well then like of the the line really just deeply upsetting and moving and beautiful from the doctor in that larger stretch like before the clip we just heard. We're saying I have to do this, Clara. It's the only way I have to be strong. I should have known from the very beginning of course the portrait of you, the creature for my own nightmares. this place, it's my own bespoke torture chamber intended for me only and all those skulls in the water. How could there be other prisoners in my hell? And so, like, that, thinking about that line was actually one of the other things that gave me a little bit of, like, helped me process the rest of it because, like, this is Loki's hell to navigate.

We've already seen Loki in exactly that at Time Loop Prison in season one with SIF, where, as we've talked about again and again as we've covered the season of Loki that you know that condemnation from her your loan you'll always will be which of course is his fate at the end of all of this but also

in terms of like the bespoke prison I know but the bespoke prison of these loops for him yes comes most keenly with the repeated you'll have to kill me from Sylvie you'll have to kill me you'll have to kill me you'll have to kill me like that's that's a bespoke time loop prison

for him and I think that like to I just I what an incredible episode of television heaven sent it is Dr. Who

so delighted so delighted that you watched that with me and all of our listeners as well it's just like so amazing what a great thing

to invoke here and yeah I just think that one interpretation of having these centuries pass, us not seeing them, but how these centuries pass, could be like a prep for Loki to be like, okay, later he says to he who remains, what a waste of time about this whole sequence, right?

Because at the end, it's not the thing that's going to fix the thing. Similar to like, you know, what the detractors of, may they be Midnight Boys or Other of last week's episode, what a waste of time were right back where we started. But it's like, what did you learn along the way? how did you change internally? So like him going through centuries, knowing that he can, I can do this time.

I did centuries just to learn what OB knows. So. Exactly. It's not just about learning how to build the throughput multiplier. It's like what are you willing to sacrifice for other people? How much time? No matter how long it takes. Yeah.

It's great. It's great stuff. So let's go again. Loki's done it. He has learned everything he needed over those centuries, Joe, and he has built the perfect throughput multiplier and he is happy to tell you

that it is perfect. And it is wonderful to hear Tom Hiddleston just say perfect. It's perfect. Hearing him say perfect is perfect. Sublime. Yeah. Sublime. He repeats the season long refrain

that we've been hearing him say to different characters. This is gonna make total sense. And the thing is it does in the way it needs to because of that with science, it's all what and how, but with fiction,

it's why lesson that we learned and that we were able to embrace last week, that mission statement ultimately for like the journey we were about to be on where he's guiding Victor through, this is where you need to apply your tape, and these are the steps to avoid or take, and don't put the throughput multiplier down

or to roll away, and he's giving OBB and Casey the science rundown, and he was the guy in episode three who was like begging them, simpler, please, during the techno battle stretch, And now he's the one talking about ion decouplers and explaining things to them. And it is not the point at all. Like, we know what that talk is for. It's for the people.

It's not about the ionicouplers. It's about the people that he's trying to protect. So that was all. And again, we're like injecting those real emotional breakthroughs and the techno babble with the humor of like, it's him. It's you. You volunteer. It's just a very, a very deftly entwined branched tree right here. here as well. He starts finishing Mobius's sentences. And there's like a quick little moment earlier

in a prior take where as he's running through the rapid fire rundown, he like points at Mobius quickly just says, trust me. And Mobius just like is quiet. Says like, okay, that was enough. Loki pointing me and saying trust me because they had built that with each other over time. Right. And here, Mobius pulls him aside and says, what the shit are you doing? And Loki says, trust me. And he says, no, because how could anybody who's in that room not be picking up on like something incredibly odd unfolding in front of them? Like something is not right. They must be able to know that. So it felt like I was glad Mobius pulled him aside. There should have been more moments like this. I think where characters were like, what is happening? Why do you know all of this? How did this happen?

Yeah. It feels like the only two characters who like really, really noticed in a way that breaks through are Mobius and Sylvie, which is kind of appropriate as like the people closest to Loki. But yeah, I mean, all of them should have been like, excuse me. But that wouldn't have made for a very jaunty zippy comedic exchange. Exactly. And so that's why we get Victor Tiley saying, hang on. This all seems a bit rushed and Loki saying only to you. Yeah.

Wonderful. He takes that mic in his hand. He's ready to podcast. And it doesn't have his headphones on though. And you have to have audio feedback. Yeah. Steve would have some notes on his recording setup, I think. But no padding in the, like no soundproofing in the, no.

Yeah. the heart of the TVA, I mean, this is not an adequate setup. Like, you need to be in a closet with the padding of all of your... In an Airbnb in Austin as I am right now. Yeah. Love to be in a closet in Airbnb podcasting you do. Great stuff. It was a cool visual to see.

This was another shot from the trailer, like all of them behind him as he steps to the four. And he's got that mic in hand as the narrator with his muses behind him, the god of stories, preparing to speak aloud this new thing. I would like to just, because we're very close to shit getting really real here, I would like to just hear one quick line that I thought was maybe the funniest thing in the entire episode. Steve. That's it.

One step at a time. Be brave. You're being so brave. It's just the like, okay, going through the steps here. One of them is to tell you you're brave. You're being so brave. But like, not even that much inflection. You're so brave.

You're so brave. I've checked off the, you're being so brave. I've checked off me, you're being so brave fox. Delightful. I really like the like, oh, he's coming for your job. Like that part, that was also really good. Good stuff. Very good.

Victor goes. He makes it down the gangway. He pushes that sticky button. He launches the throughput multiplier and it hits its mark. The intake of breath from Loki as the launch finally works. That laugh of jubilation as Victor makes his way back. Loki is just so happy. The relief that washes.

over him the way he says, finally. And there's a little moment that I thought was like quietly so striking, which is when Victor comes back. I was concerned for a moment that he was covered in temporal radiation and Loki was just like putting his arm around him patting him. But then we saw Loki go out into the radiation later. Yeah, it was like not little plumes of smoke coming off of him seemed unsafe. And yet what it unlocked is lollops. patting him on the chest and saying, you did it. And like, this is the guy who, so much of the horrific stuff that he did came from this insecurity, this desperate need for like validation for Odin and for others to give him credit to tell him that he was good enough. Right. To recognize

his capacity for achievement. And he did it. He just put in literal centuries to do this. And he doesn't need to gloat and he doesn't need anybody to tell him that he's a good boy, he just wants them to be okay. This is like a, this is like he just wants them to be okay real time moment where like he wants to be generous with another person and not just. Yeah. I want to see, soak up the praise. What I love about that evolution for Loki. This is like a little bit jumping ahead, but like if we identify the various things that Loki has wanted. like his own, you know, his father's approval, whatever, his own throne. If we want to branch off into like the Ragnarok, all of that, like, you know,

a relationship with his brother, whatever you want to put on that. I thought you were going to say a really strong local theater scene. Absolutely. He loves the arts, as do we all. But if we follow this, he'll keep from branching off of Avengers, what he said at the end of last season to Sylvie was, I just want you to be okay, right? And then what he said to Sylvie in the bar last week is,

like, I just want my friends. Like, I want to be with my friends. And then it becomes, I just want my friends to be okay, even if I'm alone. And like, in terms of that sort of like witness me stuff, like the fact that he is now going to do what he does,

does, which is, well, what does you call it? Sit on the bull flux of eternity. Grasping all the timelines together. Incredible. Without witness. Yeah. And that's another great Capaldi Doctor Who line, right? Like, here I stand without witness, without praise.

You know what I mean? Like just doing, doing the thing without anyone praising you for it or seeing you do it. And it's just like, what a massive transformation for the thing. this character. And I don't know if you ever heard me say this before, Mallory, but we love a character on an arc. We love a character on an arc. We do. That was beautiful. A couple more steps on this arc because disaster has struck. The loom is overloading. Once again, it not only didn't work, but this is the moment when they realize it never will. No adjustment, Victor says, can account for infinite. expansion. No matter how much we increase the throughput, it will never be enough.

Loki says. Never enough, Victor says. Loki. And the loom will always fail. And the new timelines will always. And this is dawning on them. And I was like, if I have one nipstick with the episode, honestly, it's that this room full of scientific geniuses never stopped to think a multiverse is infinite. But I got, I'll allow it. I've moved on already. But I had to. But I had to. to note it. I am. I had a very like, because I've been giving like, hmm, with love and respect to my publishers and what it takes to sell a book, endless interviews about the book that I wrote, MC, The Rate of Marvel Studios. And one of the like recurring things we talk about when people are like,

what's gone wrong with Marvel? The very word we use all the time, and I got it from someone who worked at Marvel who, like, gave it to me. So I use it all the time is scalability. we say that literal world all the time we're talking about what happened to the MCU. And it's like, okay, when you've got your temporal loom cooking along and you've got just a few movies, a few storylines you're trying to feed through it, that's fine. But when you have to bump up content for Disney Plus and you've got all these movies and all these TV shows and all these plates you're trying to spin. It's a scaling problem.

It's a scaling problem. You can't fit at all. And then it's always going to break. And so I was just like, I was like texting Dave Gonzalez. I was just like, oh my God, they said scalability. Are you fucking kidding me? It's not, you know, they certainly didn't say it. They finished filming this last October.

They didn't say it because we say it. But I was just sort of like, wow. I mean, this felt very meta to me in that moment. I love it. We then get what was my least favorite moment of the episode, which was very much in the recent tradition of Obie saying out loud. it's like a snake eating its own tail. The old tell instead of show, contrary to the typical approach and ambition,

Sylvie saying, it's almost as if, as soon as the timeline started branching, this was doomed to happen. Now, the upshot of this moment is that Loki looks up and is thinking and realizes where he needs to go next, back to the throne room in the citadel at the end of time.

But that was like a lot of this episode is incredibly elegant. and that was a it reminds me it reminds me of like my favorite running bit in Arrested Development when any time a character said

arrested development and Ron Howard would go the voice would go hey that's the name of the show like it just feels like yeah hey you just said the quiet part out loud

anyway great stuff let's go let's move on what happens next we see Sylvie lurchin and slowmo sort in hand. We're back in the season one finale. We're back. Citadel at the end of time. We're back with

he who remains no longer a rotting corpse alive and well, Joe. Granny Smith apple in hand. Anything you want to say about the return of the Granny Smith apple? What an icon, truly. What a, what a... In the hands of the enemy of free will. Sheenful. But do you think that beautiful green tree that Loki builds out of the strand of time at the end of this episode, has green apples upon it. There's any kind of apple on that beautiful verdant tree, they're green. Yeah, I think that was just a way to honor alligator Loki. You're being so brave. Wow.

Steve. Steve! Wow. An instant end to the same word. We know he's the real god of stories, though. Seriously. Wow. Who would you trust us in on the both legs of eternity?

Steve Olman, apparently. Remarkable stuff. So we enter, Joe, in this moment, a fabled one, a cherished one. We talked about a lot in our Loki Hall of Fame episode. We are on the brink here of the I just want you to be okay utterance. But he slips in before that. He slips in at, I've felt what you feel. And instead of finishing this declaration, we are like pulled out of our expectation.

And he says, you don't want this. and like ushers her away from the desk and begs her not to kill he who remains. And it was such a like shocking deliberately, such a shocking way to like jolt us out of how we thought as he said in front of the pickup in front of the McDonald's last week. Like son of I thought

this scene was going to go. I was like, whoa. Okay. What's about to happen? My goodness. And it's not just that he says, you must not follow through. It all ends if you do. I know this sounds strange I've seen and I know but when she says you've been seduced by a throne, he like, he doesn't just say this, Joe. He like screams it.

He like shrieks it. Pained. Shrieks, yes, it is a shriek. The last thing I want is a throne, which is just so devastating to hear so definitively based on how this episode ends. And like, it is just so painful. And we get the beginning of this new loop that you cited.

earlier, if you want to stop me, you'll have to kill me. And so we're setting up this, like, tragedy of Loki ending up alone on a throne that he didn't want at the end, but entwined with like the heft and meaning and beauty of that sacrifice. And also, of course, with the knowledge that there's just, there's no way that he's going to kill her. And so he's in, like, another heaven-scent-esque loop here trying to convince her failing. Yeah. I love the editing of no to know how we knew every time she killed, he remains, even though we didn't see it, because we heard the signature. See you soon. See you soon.

See you soon. Great stuff. Yeah, I mean, again, this is a false binary for him. It's like either kill her or she killed him. And that's one of the things he has to learn in this episode. Right. And he figures out later how that's a false binary. But, you know, to our point, why don't you just go back? He goes back to the elevator.

And I'm like, keep going. Keep going to that quiet part where you guys can just sit there and quietly talk about what's coming next. Including once again revisiting whether a warmer blanket, you know, a more snugly blanket could have been summoned.

I think it's just worth further evaluation. Further evaluation. Speaking of that elevator moment I did like, because, you know, to keep tracking like the what line do we hear as he enters, that's that he comes back in that moment in the elevator and the you're just a man moment, which I loved because it's like,

right, and he's not. He's a god, but a god in his journey hinges on learning to value the lives of the very men that he used to say were born to kneel. Great stuff. It's great stuff. But also, I guess, it's his, he becomes the god he needs to become by accessing humanity, let's say. But also, I do think, and maybe this is like a monarchist, undemocratic of me.

But, like, you know. We are covering the crown. So. I am. I am. But when he said a couple weeks ago, when you noted that he and Sylvia are talking and the camera is like tilted up and they look so big. And he's like, we are gods. It's like maybe it takes a God to do this because he remains does what he does.

But Loki uses magic for another solution. You could do that because he's a God. And the distinction between and that breakthrough, which like. was fueled and facilitated by these important conversations between characters who are pushing each other to interrogate and improve. You have a man who's playing at being a god and trying to be a god in a way that he shouldn't.

And then you have a god who is saying, like, what is really like sacred about just being a person? And how can I let people do that in a way that I can then preserve and maintain? Wonderful. He's just, this is for the TikTok heads. he's just, King's just a guy.

Hit him with your car. Like, come on. Just do it. It's fine. It's just a guy. Look, he's a god. Yeah. We did get an email from a listener,

Leia, that I don't need to necessarily read in full, but it just sort of underlies what I was saying about, like, it was kind of perturbing to have Sylvie be so background in, in this scene. And so, like, feeling like I think, yeah, the word Alleyo uses as a pawn in this game that he who remains is playing with Loki. It's like, I think one of our pals who covers Loki, and I can't remember which one who said it was like, let's just let the men talk.

Let's snap Sylvia out of here and just let the men talk about like what's going on. And I think with our hope and expectation of maybe born out of our favorite Star Wars movie, The Rise of Skywalking, the idea of the forest dyad. But Alia writes, I was so sure that they were going to come together in touch and phrasing by the end of the show. I loved when you guys talked about the solution to all of this being found in the union of two variants that their connection would be powerful enough to outsmart he who remains and lead to the solution. I didn't need the solution to be happy. That would not have made sense. But I was also not expecting the episode to basically be a one-man show. And I will argue,

we'll talk about this a little later. I will argue that I think it, they do find a way for it to be the blend of two ideologies. And we'll talk about the way in which Loki doesn't get where he gets without Sylvie. But I do wish, I think I would have enjoyed the episode more if she had been a more active purchasement throughout the season, to be honest. I just love it when they're a team, even when they disagree that they're a team. So I think throughout the season, I would have loved Sylvie to be in on everything that's going on.

I agree. I think even like if we go back to season one and so much of the power and like surprising impact, of it and you think about the relationships with both Mobius and Sylvie, but like one of the things that Mobius says to Loki about Sylvie, like when he's saying, do you really believe you deserve to be alone? This is an episode four, part of like Mobius's awakening. And Loki says, I don't know. And Mobius says, then you better figure it out quick because the nexus event, the two of you cause, I think whatever that connection is can bring this whole place down. so we better understand.

Like, that's the foundational aspect of season one that their connection can... To them together to take on a life, right? So, like... Yeah, right. They have to hold that, hold hands to learn to enchant together. Part of how local realizes that he can do that new magic

is because Sylvie helps him believe it. Yeah. It's after he explained how his mother taught him new magic. But there's... Sylvie, like, they're helping each other grow. So that was... There's a difference between, like, a female character who, like, helps empower the male character

and a female character who does the thing together with the male. You know what I mean? It's like the best supporting actress, Oscar, for like a woman who plays the wife of a genius in a movie versus like lead actress. You know what I mean? It's just like... And so like, I would say in season one,

I think she was a lead actress and I think in season two, she was a supporting character. And like, again, the show is called Loki, but she's technically a Loki. So, you know... She doesn't want you to call her a Loki, but yes, she is Loki.

Yeah, and I think the beauty of their relationship is that they're... When it's at its best and being experienced, Florida's fullest, they're always helping each other grow. Like, they're both, they're teaching the other person a new thing always. And I think there's, I do think there's some of that here where they have lessons for each other. We'll talk about that a little bit more in a later scene.

But yeah, it's, it's undeniably, not as prominent. So, not only being frozen, but then, like, flicked out of the scene. Yeah, snapped out. It's a choice. It's a real move. He who remains calls Loki lover boy as he's freezing time. Time freezing. Shout out,

shout out fourth wing, a book that I'm reading and can now reference, Joe. You proud of me? I am very proud of you. How horny is it so far? It's incredibly horny. Okay, great. One of my pals who I'm in a,

one of my college friends, I'm in a remote book club with who's reading it, had texted the group to say, like, she had been reading it on like an airplane during a work trip. It was like, I have some, I would not recommend reading this in this setting. And it was like, oh, interesting.

Now I know why. This is why you put, if she was reading it digitally, this is why you put one of those like privacy screens on your, on your phone or your Kindle that like people sitting next to you on a plane can't read what you're reading. I have the most vivid memory of reading the John Eagrit Lord's Kiss cave scene on a New York subway with a woman like very clearly reading it over my shoulder. I was like,

You're being so brave. This is an experience that I will remember forever. And that I'll talk about, you know, more than a decade later on a podcast. Here we are. Wow. Here we are. Lover boy, great. I should say, lover boy's good stuff.

The Jonathan Majors of this season has obviously been like fraught from the beginning. We're going to talk a little bit about like the implications of the end of this episode for like the future of Jonathan Majors in the franchise. But I will just say this very plainly. Leaving everything else aside. of the three characterizations of King that we have seen him play he who remains

remains by far and away my favorite and it like with love and respect to Victor Timely and King the Conqueror seeing majors back in this like playful cheeky lover boy phase is my most

preferred. He who remains one quantumania Kang to Timely three and I don't know how the power ranking could be. And gap between one and two is pretty wide, I would say. Yeah. So, Joe, our season-long fear. Yeah.

That he who remains wanted this outcome. Yeah. Talking about it since the first pot of the season. Actually, maybe even since the pre-bod. Yeah. And certainly since season one. Again, a false memory that I have of talking about that with you in real time. It did not happen.

But in my heart it did. it's confirmed here, plainly. So this isn't the first time we've had this conversation. Is it? He Hermann says, how does you know? I know about the slipping. And who do you think paved that road? Calling back, of course, to the season one finale's every step you took to get here.

Lamentus, the void. I paved the road. You, you just walked down it. He's playing with his food once again here, right? Oh, kiddo, did you really think I was just going to sit back and let her kill me? And that be it? Zip? Nata. R-I-P-H-W-R? So, Joe, this was like a really central thing at the beginning of the season when we were, like, priming for what might happen. So it's not a surprise, but was it, was it satisfying to be learned the truth in this way?

Yeah, satisfying. Also, when he says kid, I mean, saying lover boy, it's one thing. Kiddo is brutal. Well, what Kiddo Pings, I mean, and it's fun to call like a, you know, millennia's old God, kiddo, right? Yes. That's its own thing. But kiddo, again, we're going to talk about Lost plenty going forward, but Kiddo always pings for me, Christian Shepherd. One of my favorite lines from Lost, and it is, sorry, it is ingrained in my DNA. I cannot spoil Lost wholly for people because I spent a whole pandemic trying not to.

But it's amazing restraint with Lost that it's just very specific to Lost the way that you feel about this. I don't know. We're not like we can't talk about the end of Thrones. Well, Thrones, more people who listen to us have watched Thrones, but I'm still constantly hoping to inspire people to watch Lost if they've only heard the bad press about loss, which is wrong. So, you know, whereas, like, most people who listen to this have gone on the Thrones journey with us already.

You know, or probably read Harry Potter or, you know, like, whatever. The... Both of which we will be talking about the end of shortly. Sure thing. There's a line in. loss that reduces me to tears every time, which is everybody dies sometimes kiddo by Christian Shepard says it. And a paternal fake Christian Shepard says it. And like so much so that my screen name on like a slack associated with that loss podcast I did was everyone, Joanna's

sometimes kiddo. Like I just love that line from loss so much. So when he said kiddo, I was like, this is a real, this is a Christian Shepard moment. But no matter what, whether or not you're thinking about lost or not, it is a very condescending paternalistic thing to say to a god. So that's what he who remains thinks of it. Absolutely. Christian Shepard, incredible television character. It is, and especially inside of this boast, I told you reincarnation baby, right? He's calling back again to that season one speech, reincarnation baby.

And this was another thing that you brought up in our premiere pod. We've been tracking that the thing that followed the reincarnation. Baby line in season one was, no, it's just another lie, another manipulation. Oh, no lie, no manipulation. But how can you trust that from a liar and a manipulator? So here we are with he remains saying, I told you, Reincarnation Baby, and then Loki, and this is what we were alluding to earlier, probably Tom Hiddleston. Probably Tom, probably Tom.

Quotes T.S. Eliot's, little getting, from. the four quartets. And what he says here is, we die with the dying, we're born with the dead. So he's taking a couple snippets from, let's talk about this poem for a minute. The stretch that he is quoting from goes thusly.

And any action is a step to the block, to the fire, down the sea's throat, or to an illegible stone. And that is where we start. We die with the dying. see they depart and we go with them. We are born with the dead. See, they return and bring us with them.

The moment of the rose and the moment of the U-tree are of equal duration. U-tree. Voldemort's Wondwood, resurrection, rebirth. And this idea in the poem, heeding the past so that you can better understand your present and your future and what are you willing to sacrifice as you seek to attain some version of salvation, There's a beautiful line elsewhere in the poem.

What we call the beginning is often the end, and to make an end is to make a beginning, which is not only what we're seeing here, but that is the central text of Dark. Dark is a show that has always felt like very applicable to Loki in the loops that we're watching and the paradoxes. And the question specifically, I think, of when characters understand what is happening to them

and what they are doing. Like, the beginning is the end, and the beginning is the recurring line across Dark. So this was just all like very cool and fun to think about in terms of how these stories are connected and influence each other. But like why is Tom? Why is Loki quoting this? And the end of our exploring will be to arrive where we started. I'm going all out of order here. And know the place for the first time. And the end of our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. Like isn't that the summation of seeking new clarity and achieving new understanding? last week we got a email from a listener onto

in response to the Midnight Boys is not liking episode 5 and feeling like it was a waste of time and she wrote I understand we appear to be back at the same place in time where we started

it reminds me of the famous verse from T.S. Eliot's Little Getting the final of his four quartets we shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all of our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time in this sense whether the exploration took an episode or a season or a lot of time slipping and changing timelines,

it is still exploration worth something because the end goal will be for Loki to arrive where he started, the TVA and know the place really for the first time. And I so apologize to Anto that I did not read that email last week. I mean, I try to get to all the email. Like, I try to, it's like we don't have enough time to get to every email. But like she rightly so responded with a little victory lap this week to be like, I was like, nail it. Yeah.

Like crushed this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Amazing. That's incredible. Well-deserved poetry flex. But I think that, I think this goes back to whether or not Tom is the one who put T.S.

Eliot in here, something that our Palo Eric Voss, about New Rocksters pointed out, is that in interstellar, Christopher Nolan, on the bookcase that involves so many scientific tomes, put the four quartets by T.S. Eliot, because it is so much to do with time. And it is this like poetic, lyrical text that that is, you know, as good an expiration of time as anything that any brilliant scientist has written. And that takes us back to last week's episode science slash fiction. It's like, is this science or is this fiction, is this techno babble or is this literature? Like, what are we doing? It's all saying the same thing, which is a human truth.

We're just trying to explain it in different ways. You know what I mean? there's that great Doctor Who line, like, physics and poetry. And he's like, they're the same thing. And she's like, Bill's like, why? He's like, because of the rhyming. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, it's all our way of trying to explain the universe, our existence,

the mysteries, everything we're trying to fumble our way towards. So, yeah. I love that. And the last line I was going to cite from the poem was kind of about that like slash fiction aspect of the science fiction idea and that question of why and the question of who quick now, here and now always, a condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything.

So, like, this is also about sacrifice, right? And, like, what you are willing to give. And so it's difficult to think of, like, a better shorthand in one line for, like, a text to call a pun that just has this really rich mapping. That email from last week, what an amazing... A flexi. incredible.

The fact that one listener is like, let me reach back in time to when Tom Hiddleston put a Shakespeare quote on a back of a photo for me instead of this episode. Incredible day for the bad babies. Our listeners,

just the best. What's not bad babies? Also, please, in the podcast in the future where I just read you Shakespeare, please read T.S. Eliot back to. I love to. Also, we should say, by the way, because we're just like,

this is Tom. Like, if Eric Martin is like a huge T.S. Eliot head, that would also be completely believable. Shout out to you. Oh, man. Great stuff. Yeah.

I mean, what I love about this episode is the mythopoic poetic feeling of it, right? And so, like, the fact that, you know, it can sort of spark our little inner English lit nerds the way that, like, covering every single episode of Rings of Power did. Like, this is quite fun for me. You have some more poetry. Oh, we got Yates. Action coming later. Yeah. Excited.

Excited. He Remain says, this is a lot for you. I get it. He suggests that Loki replay this conversation a couple thousand more times and the

withering smirk on Loki's face here is just incredible. And then he gets to basically say he gets to quote House of R. Eat shit, E. Remains. Yeah. What makes you think this is the first time we've had this conversation? Now, regrettably, the way he does that by also freezing Sylvie, as we previously mentioned. Tough stuff. But we do feel this surge of pride when we realize what he has learned, like the wisdom that he has managed to gain. When he remains tells Loki that he's his favorite here reminded me, this is also like a recurring beat on the show, reminded me of Mobius when he's hugging Loki in the void at the end of,

episode five last season and like mouthing to Sylvie, you're my favorite. That's so funny because like when you just, when you just did like, this is a lot for you. I get it. You did your own Wilson impression, even though it's he who are rainstocking because it's like feels appropriate. Yeah, it feels appropriate. It feels appropriate. We just simply not enough Mobius talk yet. Though we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. Loki pulls up a chair. And it's time for a conversation. Steve, can we hear this? Okay. So, seems you've figured it all out.

Hmm? Tell me, how is Victor timely? Of course you know about him. Wait, don't tell me. You're having some problems with the temporal loom. Scaling problem. Scaling problem. That's what he told you. Victor told you the scaling problem.

Wow. No. No, there's no problem. It destroyed the TVA. The temporal loom is a failsafe. When the loom is overloaded with branches, it deletes the ones that aren't supposed to be there. Everything except the sacred timeline. And the TVA, well, that's just collateral damage. No business.

Easy to rebuild. But a waste of time. And as you may or may not know, My variants are already out there. We'll find them. There's too many. I won't stop. Doesn't matter.

Never stop me before. I know, champ. But the outcome to this equation remains... It remains the same. You lose. I know. Shake it off. I'll change the equation.

I'll break your loom. Lannister, Targaryen, Stark. this one's on top than this one. Break the wheel on my notes so many times. Also, like no view of 50. Shout out, he who remains for being a Swifty in saying, shake it off. I'm going to count that as him being a Swifty. Oh, man.

Great stuff. One of our, one of our beloved bad babies, Cass, huge Swifty. She's going to love that, Joe. Shout out Cass. So many things here. First of all, I want to know if you are just capable as a human, being who watches television, who reads books, who watches movies, of hearing the word fail safe and not thinking of Desmond in the Hatch.

Like, I am incapable of it. It's an instant association. I assume this is the case for you as well. Yeah, absolutely. And like every, like, blaring white flash of light, you know what I mean? It's all very hatchy, very incidenty. We needed some Cass Elliott here. Speaking of Cass.

Yeah, we did. Me, your own cat. I don't music. That actually would have been very aft here. Well, we make some smoothies and get on the exercise bike. Yeah. It sounds like a great day. Yeah.

Yeah. Move over. Bowflex. We've got a bike here. The exercise bike of eternity. Joe, there's a lot here. I just want to say that like, I felt a real surge of joy when Loki hit break the loom, break the wheel territory.

Because, like, as you know, this is something I've been bumping on all season. like not the eventual outcome or capacity for him to try to rebuild in a better way, but that like why are we content to pursue the loom that we know, maintaining the loom that we know this guy built to thwart timelines and free will? It was just like such a stumbling block for me, maybe more than it should have been, but this like felt like a very necessary thing. And I was just really,

it was like, this is a breakthrough that Loki needed. and I've been waiting for and I was just really glad we got it here. What I love, okay, again, this is like hopping forward a little bit, but like, what I love is that you and I were a little bit at an impassell season in terms of, like, kind of who's right between Loki and Sylvie. And what I absolutely love about this finale is that I kind of feel like they were both right. Yeah, they had to help each other see that.

And like, yeah, I just, I love, we got this. I didn't put this in the notes, but I'm going to read it anyway, just in case this. this comes back to haunt me like the T.S. Eliot one did. But I listened to Hannah wrote this email. It says, Sylvie wouldn't compromise tearing down the system and Loki wouldn't compromise saving it in some way. When Loki was facing the prospect of killing Sylvie and time slipped to Mobius, what he pitched was essentially the model of the TVA, greater good and all that. He needed Sylvie to save them all.

He needed Sylvie to pitch once again letting the system go. So it's like, I have to save it. You have to destroy it. And I'm like, I kind of think Loki's right. And you're like, I kind of think Sylvie's right. And it's like they achieved both. They achieved, they broke out of He Who Remains his little game where these are the only options and figure it out their own path forward.

And I love that for them and for us. Me as well. It was a very satisfying thing. And I never, like, I know we don't have, we've talked about this a lot. But like, it was never that I felt Sylvie was completely right or Loki was completely wrong. It was that it was so frustrating to not hear them talk about it, like to the extent that they have now in the bar scene last week.

Like, what is driving your insistence that this is the way it has to be? Okay, now we know that. Now we can better understand and then we can help each other. So, like, these last two episodes were hugely impactful in that respect. I mean, a lot of other respects, but that respect specifically in a way that, like, you know, now when I rewatch the season, I, like, won't, I just don't think I'll be as hung up on that because I'll know that we reach a satisfying, a satisfying point. And, like, this, that outcome, like you said,

earlier, that like rejection of this false choice, this false binary, this reductive binary that he who remains is presenting. It was fun here to, after last week's episode, to think about how what OB or AD at that time told Loki could like help him here as well. We don't get a lot of OB in the finale, but like that conversation about the impossible, which you and Dave had a lovely conversation about last week, like that felt very present for me in this scene too, because He Who Remains is saying it can only be these two things. And so it feels impossible to figure out another way. But therefore, it's something you might be able to do.

And that's a thing that Loki knows now. And he can take with him when he talks to Mobius and when he talks to Sylvie. And that was just, like, really beautiful. And then, of course, it's very painful to hear he who remains poke at the specific scab on that festering wound that has... You lose. Pulled at Loki. his whole life, you lose. What I love about that, right?

Because you have hearing our notes the season one conversation. Sylvie says, do you think what makes the Loki a Loki is the fact that we're destined to lose? Loki says, no, we may lose sometimes painfully, but we don't die. We survive. I mean, you did, right? And she's the one who helped him realize that. But what I love about this ending is that he does lose. He loses the thing that he most wants, which is these people in this connection.

He wins in a certain way. He wins a triumph of self-evolution and all these other things. And he gets to be the hero, even if only in like for Sylvie and Mobius, you know, or whoever remembers him, they're certainly not, I guess, building new murals to him and the TVA and stuff like that. But like, but he does, he learns that by, that only by losing everything as Loki's feel destined to do, can he win by embracing that as, you know, his destiny. Yeah, he has to like re-contextualize and reshape what losing even means to him, just as he has to reshape what purpose is to him.

And that's all happening in tandem. It's great stuff. There's just one final push from He Who Remains. It's pretty desperate. It's like, let me just run through it again. If you break the loom, the war is going to claim everyone and everything, it's all gone. All of it. All peace, he tells Loki, is due to his mercy.

This is a house of our word that pings for us. We track this across stories, Joe. From Dumbledore and Traco to Ned. Bilda's hands. To Bilbo to Ned and Varys' conversation. So we got a fun mercy exchange between Obi-1 and Anakin and Obi-1. We always like to talk about that.

So I was curious if that made you feel anything on the mercy front. But just also this like... Quality of mercy not being trained. Yeah. I mean, I think what's funny is that I wrote down the whole like Twas Pity's Day, Bilbo's hand line later when Mobius is talking about his inability to prone a child, you know, and what that move, what that mercy. Yes.

From Mobius instructed Loki to do and how the mercy, the pity of Bilbo, the mercy of Mobius, like, change the course of the war of everything, you know? So, yeah, I think, I think it's very important. I love that. Darling, Mobius. Real dad energy from him in this episode. The daddiest. The daddiest. Bad baby. Yeah, it is. Thank you, Steve. I was like, hit me with the bad baby, Steve. Thank you. This is the, that's the gambit, remove the dictator and what fills the void. The confronting that question again in a new light for Loki,

that question that he and Sylvie, that divided them, like the fork in their road for a while there. And it turns out, Joe, the answer's going to be, the answer's going to be Loki. And I know you were concerned about that. You were like, you were worried about our guy filling in for he remains, because you're like, that's, I'm afraid that's too close to the thing that the villainous Loki wanted and it might feel like a backslide.

Does it, like, how do you feel about it? does it feel that way to do? Like, no, no, not at all. Because again, like, and we didn't get to, I had, I had kind of moved and worked through that last week because of the bar scene conversation between Sylvia and Loki, which just felt like such an essential step. Why are you doing it? Like, we talk about all the time, like, this question of intention and the safest

hands are still our own. And, like, what are you doing the thing for? And for Loki, like, for the show, it felt to me, I think especially, like, I liked the kind of comedic, yeah, like, remember when I tried to take over New York and, like, the world pie scene and episode two, but it just felt like the show was like only remembering Loki's past through comedy and like offhand remarks in a couple key ways. And like, then the conversations where they're like, wait, let's remember, let's remember like who you are and have been. Because the reason the arc is meaningful is because and we did the whole Hall of Fame episode.

We've done all these episodes like we've talked about this so much. The progress that he's made is like singular. And so it's not that I. ever doubted that he was capable of making the choice or their sacrifice. It's just like there weren't enough moments where the characters, I feel like the show was relying on us to make the leap a couple times or to trust in the character. And like that trust was rewarded. But when we finally started incorporating subtext or memory into text, then those concerns just completely faded for me.

That's part of why I just thought the back of the season was just so much stronger. That far, you know, I will forever curse the virus that took you that we, we'd, didn't get to spend an hour talking about the bar scene between Loki and Zilley. Oh my God. I loved it. No surprise. Loved it. When I was watching it, I was like, this is a scene, Mallion and I were talking about.

What I'd been waiting for like all season to talk about with you. No offense to Dave, it was delightful to talk to everyone about it. Dave, you're the best. Dave is the best. Oh, man. Great stuff. Great stuff. Don't accept the gambit, Joe.

You know, shatter that false choice. Try to make a new choice. for yourself. That was what we needed to hear, what I needed to hear from Loki, and we get it. We get it here in the episode. It was, uh, it was very important. Then we go to the time theater. We go to Mobius. We go to the season one premiere.

Loki slips back into himself amid, like, one of the foundational exchanges between, not only for Loki's character, for their relationship between the two of them. What are you going to do? Finish what I started, which is, claim my throne. You want to be king? I don't want to be. was born to be. So again, no accident that this is our entry point here, back with a Loki who thought he wanted a throne and then had to forge these connections with the people who would help him realize that he didn't, actually. He didn't. And then, and then he was cursed, rewarded

with the thing that he learned that he didn't want. It's a beautiful throne. Beautiful throne. Absolutely. Amazing. Gold-coded. Wonderful. That's another veined column. Loki starts telling Maybe. Yeah, Tim. Yeah. Logan starts telling Mobius, I know what's up. I know what's going to happen next. Mobylus, someone got all over the set list, which killed me.

And then he tells Mobius that he needs his help. He asks him how you choose who lives or dies. And this was another huge moment of growth because this is a decision that he used to think was his right to make, whether it was on Asgard or on Midgard or at the TVA. And now it is not a right or a power. It is a burden. And that is what a power. It is a power. Power.

Thank you. That is what this conversation. That is what this conversation between Mobius and Loki is about unlocking. What is the burden behind that purpose? Steve, can we hear this? All because that one hunter, he lost sight of the. big picture. You gotta keep the big picture in mind. Most purpose is more burden than glory. And trust me, you never want to be the guy who avoids it because you can't live with

the burden. How do you live with it? What happened to your partner, the hunter who pruned the boy when you couldn't? Well, things worked out fine for her. She actually became a judge. You know, she's the reason you're here. And so, she's the reason you're here and Instead of dust in a TV event. That's that. She knew the hard thing to do was the thing that had to be done. And by hard, I mean impossible.

Now there's no comfort. You just choose your burden. Thank you, Mubias. The tears in Mobyus. As he says, thank you, Mobyus, and here's there's no comfort, you just choose your burden. It's so beautiful. Owen Wilson's so good in the scene.

Yeah. I regret to him for him that I'm going to sweep in with a critique, which is, I really wish this last big exchange between Loki and Mobius were between Loki and a Mobius who knew about his relationship with Loki. Yeah. You know? Yeah. This is a Mobe. This is a Mobe is who barely knows Loki. And that is not as emotionally rich to me as, you know, the one who we've gone on this journey with, you know.

Yeah. I agree. And I actually, like, when I first realized. where we were in time. I actually was very nervous, not only about missing the catharsis of what a later conversation between them would have given us,

which is like what we get from Loki and Sylvie. When he goes to Sylvie, it's the Sylvie who knows everything. Much closer in time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But also I was like, are we about to see some sort of fast-forwarded breakthrough for a Mobius who hasn't reached that?

How about the word of a friend point with Loki? and then we avoid that pitfall, but the reason we avoid it is because it's like the part of that larger through line of the episode. It's not about the breakthrough for Mobius at all here. It's about the breakthrough for Loki and what this Mobius can teach him. And so that is achieved and unlocked, but it's not.

I agree with you. Like it would how much, how much like, like, would we have even been able to like recover from watching a conversation between that? But it is very sad. I have some thoughts on maybe like why we didn't get it later, but it is, it's very, it's very hard not to be thinking about like, oh, this is their basically like, other than the elevator show, like, first conversation and then also their last. It's interesting. It's interesting. Do you think this is a story about a Loki and a Thor? I mean, do you think it matters? Oh. No. I mean, I like that theory. Have you heard the theory? Is that kid Dr. Doom? Because they're in the Baltic Sea and it's like near where Dr. Victor, I mean, I guess we got to get Doom. I guess we got to get Doom. I guess we got to get Doom.

in here. I think what matters that it's two boys. And whether it's like, I mean, no offense to Sylvie, whether or not it's a little Loki and Thor or Moby is freezing because there's some echo of his own voice, you know, something like that.

Yeah. It won't surprise you to hear Joe that I found it impossible not to think of one of my favorite Thrones moments here. Quoted and cited often on this podcast, rarely more relevant than it is right now. that John Barrack exchange from Beyond the Wall in season seven, specifically because of that,

there's no comfort. You just choose your burden line from Mobius. Like, that just pinged so strongly for me. In the context of this, I don't think it's our purpose to understand and how, like, hard that would be for a character like John who is always seeking understanding to accept,

you and I won't find much joy while we're here, but we can keep others alive. We can defend those who can't. defend themselves. I'm the shield that guards the realms of men. Maybe we don't need to understand any more than that. Maybe that's enough. I, maybe that's enough. Building toward John's own sacrifices along the way and like how sad and deeply tragic and hard that is for characters to have to reckon with that kind of calculus. When we think about the end of thrones, which was disappointing to many, and plenty of people

liked the final shots of the Starks. In a finale that didn't satisfy many, the final shots of the Starks seemed to be something that people responded well to. I will say John writing out like with his pal and his dog and will like probably have a wildling wife in a year.

Like a year is just sort of like... Dog? Sorry. How dare you? How... The beloved echo of his own very... soul. Thank you.

Ghost. Dyer wolf ghost. I mean, I know that like, I know that I'm speaking metaphorically. I know that like you would have torn the world down if John and Ghost had not been united at the end of the series. But like I think it undercuts a little this whole like meanwhile Loki is all by himself on the throne. Right.

Like John has to like wear winter wear for the rest of his life. But he's got past. Who should join Loki? Should Alligator? Should Big Algo? Big alligator Loki? What do you think? I'm so dumb.

I thought Sylvie would join him. I'm just like... Not really undercuts the whole sacrifice. Maybe one day she will. When she's tired of wandering around, maybe she will. Yeah. When she's gotten her fill of McDonald's and Velvet Underground, if you can ever get your fill of those things,

which I personally do not. When you find out what's west of Westeros, and she's seen everything. Maybe she'll join them. Oh boy. Joe, this reframing of glorious purpose, this not only series long, but MCU long, central aspect of Loki's Ark and Quest.

What else would you like to say about this here? Sublime. Sublime! To find the burden, like, it's such a beautifully flowery, a burdened with glorious, like, what a beautiful phrase. It's so, like,

smar me and smug and like this is just who I am a god and glorious purpose is thrust upon me and like all this sort of stuff like that but for Mobius to like highlight the burden and the purpose and say once you strip once you strip the word glorious out of that sentence I'm burdened with purpose doesn't sound so fun anymore this sentence is a life sentence you know and so yeah it really is The journey, it was fun to just get that. And I am burdened with glorious purpose Avengers beat in the previously on to like open. And you think of like the kind of like, the, like, derisive laugh when he's watched his whole like life highlight footage real and season one glorious purpose, like having to confront the folly of that. And then like the classic Loki interactions at the end of season one and what he was able to teach Loki and Sylvie about glorious purpose.

and it's certainly no accident that when Loki is screaming his magic into existence out of the gangway shortly like it's very difficult not to think of Richard E. Grant and what we got from classic Loki at the end of season one there,

all of those lessons. And I think that like what I love about that, what I love about going from season one episode one is called Glory's Purpose, season two episode six called Glory's Purpose. What we learn in season one episode one is that

Glorious purpose, what a joke, right? And then in season 2nd of those six is like, no, here's my glorious. This is my glorious purpose. I do have a glorious purpose. Yes. I do have a throne. It is much more torturous than I thought it would be, but it is heroism. Here it is.

You know, and it is glorious. So, yeah. It is golden clad, you know. So there you are. So this is what Mobius unlocks for Loki. but Loki has to visit his other constant because he has two of them. He sure does.

There are two pennies for this Desmond. And it's time to go to Sylvie. We enter at the nowhere left to go utterance from Sylvie back in AD's workshop from episode five. Everybody's spaghetti-fied. Sylvie's there. Everybody's spaghetti-fied sometimes, kiddo.

Is that going to be your new slack handle? It's not too late. Um, Steve, can we hear just literally this entire scene? What's happening? They're outside time. How? I finally learned to control the time slipping. I went back.

I thought I could fix the loom. It's a failsafe. It was designed to protect the sacred timeline and nothing else. Of course it is. I'm out of option, Sylvie. I've tried everything. The only way that anything survives. Is if I never kill he who remains in the first place.

So you have to kill me. Not giving you my blessing if that's what you're waiting for. What do I do? It's the sacred timeline or nothing. It's not enough to protect the sacred timeline, Loki. Even down there, it's full of death and destruction and injustice. justice. Do you really want to be the God who takes away everyone's free will so you can protect that? But what good is free will if everyone's dead? And who are you to say we can't die trying?

Who are you to decide we can't die fighting? You're replacing one nightmare with another. I grew up in Apocalypse's loki. I've lived through enough of them to know that sometimes it's okay to destroy something. If, if there's a hope that you can replace that thing with something better. Here's what absolutely cracks my heart open on rewatch and rewatch

and reread of this text is like the more I think about this finale, the more I think about I won't talk about this a little bit more later, but like he goes to you call Mobius and Sylvie his two constants, which is a lost reference. Go watch lost. Why haven't you yet?

But we've also been talking, we've also been talking about them throughout the series as mirrors for Loki. What does he look like when he looks in that mirror that Mobius holds up to him? What does he look like when he holds up? Again, I'm going to talk about this a little bit more later on, but he's existed his whole life in the mirror that Odin held up to him and that Thorish held up to him. And those are, you can only be one thing. And what Mobius says to him in season one is you could be whoever, whatever you want to be, even someone good.

I mean, just in case anyone ever told you different. Yeah. And so the hope that Loki has here, if there's a hope that you can place that thing with something better, the interpretation that I have is not so much like, if I can pull this off,

it's the, am I something better than Kang? Is that I can only hope that I can be something better than I've been before than anyone ever thought I could be. than he remains. And that hope of, like, in himself, can a Loki change

has been the question the show has been asking us from the beginning. And the fact that you and I feel so settled when he sits down on that throne that he's not going to be careening towards a despotic rule, but, you know, this is our benevolent, you know,

God Dad looking out for us for the rest of time. The show took our faces in its hands and, like, Pepper said, you can rest now. I'm so grateful. I love that. I agree. It makes me think of one of the lines that we've talked about from season one that we both really love or one of the exchanges,

one of our old cafe chats that were just so partial to, Joe, when it was the only order. no chaos conversation in season one between Loki and Mobius. It sounds boring, Loki said, and it was on my mind actually later because like

Loki applying order to the chaos, like ensuring the chaos can exist but then it was just perfect. But like the end of like the tangled roots yes through the trunk to the glorious like sprouting branches

and how there is like the chaotic nature of nature, right? This is a natural looking thing. Nature is by essence, like, chaotic. But it's a tended garden. But the nature is also ordered, you know? And so, yeah, it's beautiful. Fucking beautiful.

Attended garden. A little, a little tolkey in there for us. Like, the beat in that only order to no chaos conversation that I really always, like, think about and love so much is it's, it's a, He also said that you called me a scared little boy part that we love to laugh about. I called you a lot of things you did. You were wrong, though.

You see, I know something children don't. What's that? That no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good. And what I love about what you're saying here and what the show embraced in this finale and at the end of the season, it's not that like they forgot that Loki used to be bad or capable of bad things or wanted us. to forget. It's like that the goodness means more because we recognize the growth and the evolution that led to that point. And like, you know, as you know, one of the things I was like

bumping on earlier in the season with the Loki Sylvie debate, specifically the free will aspect was that that was so central for Loki in season one, right? My choices are my own. Your choices are your own? Good. Let's go with that. And so the, you're just going to like, like, you're going free will and walk away. And I loved, like, the conversation we had about that, like, that Sylvie was wrong that you could just say burn it all the ground, destroy. It's easier to destroy, right? The part of the lesson, and this was why I loved this conversation, like in this scene

was so important because as ever in the best moments between them, they have something to teach each other. And so, like, she needed him to help her understand and recognize and embrace that hand-waving trying to build something new, like that it's harder to stay a moment from earlier in the season that was so hard-ending. To hope. That was what he had to unlock for her.

And then he needed her to help him understand that that's something new that you stay to make if you chose to stay even when it was hard. It can't just be like a slightly tweaked version of the thing that your forebearer rock. It has to be something better in a meaningful way. And I love what you're highlighting because it's just such an amazing, it is such an amazingly satisfying and rich and rewarding thing for us to see Loki at a point where the better thing, the idea of him being better, isn't through like hubris or arrogance or might. Like it's because of his heart. It's because of connection to other people. It's because of wanting to gift them with the right to make, to be able to say their version of my choices are my own and have it be real, have it actually be true. Yeah.

Were you thinking of, I don't know how to ask you a loss question without, while honoring your pledge to not spoil the end of loss. Okay, I won't use names. How about that? Were you thinking powerfully here? I don't know how you couldn't have been. I certainly was of the idea of the protector. Island guardianship.

Yeah. Island guardianship here. I wrote a very dumb tweet on the night that this dropped. that was like Loki finale out of context. And one of the frames I used was of one of those characters that you've written down here who says, you're like me now, right?

Or now you're like me, right? And then that character then says it to another character. This idea of passing, yes, that protector roll down. And it's similar to this idea that I was trying to fumble towards when we were talking about Asoka and I still haven't really unlocked.

So, and I already mentioned this, that one of our listeners unlocked kind of what I was trying to talk about, which is, the example that they gave is Will Turner taking on the flying Dutchman and becoming like you know the the ferryman for the dead

in the Pirates of the Caribbean this idea that like taking on this mantle or becoming the protector of the island unlost is a good example if Indiana Jones had stayed to become the new grill night something like that like if you have a more a mortal I mean Loki's a god but if you have a moral character who like steps into this immortal guardianship role.

What's so funny is like after that, I was like, okay, now I'll definitely be able to find this on TV trope. So I like typed in Will Turner and like bootstrap Bill and like all this sort of stuff like trying to, I like still have not been able to like unlock the whole flood of examples that I'm sure must exist of this like becoming the new gatekeeper. Sounds like a future Troops course episode to me. Hobbits and Dragons is Gmail.com, please. If you think of more examples.

But like what you sacrifice, what you give up in order to become that. that is really key. And I was, we got this great email from listener Brandon, quoting this other part of loss that I think feeds into exactly what we're talking about here. Loki doesn't get here without his relationship to Mobius and to Sylvie, right? So Brandon writes, a quote from Lost. It is Christian Shepherd who says this.

The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with those people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed all of them. and they needed you. And then, end quote. And then Brandon says, the most important part of the story

in Loki was like lost. It wasn't the time loops or what in the hell the Dharma initiative was doing or how the hatch of the temporal loom worked. It was the connections of the losses,

the loves, the dreams, the people who came together to care and to love one another. So is Loki the friends we made along the way? Yeah, it is. It is. It is what Loki is.

It's what Lost is too. It's wonderful. That's what podcasting is. It is. I got like a chill hearing you read that quote in Brandon's email. Maybe I'll do a whole.

whole loss rewatch, even though I very recently did one, as you know. I know. It actually isn't that recent anymore. That was like the beginning of the pandemic when I did that. It's been yeah, but that was last year. Right. Should we time off to like five years from now where you and I can just launch a full podcast rewatch and loss? Yeah. It's great. I'm sure. Yeah. It's time slip right to there. And we don't want a time slip right to that. Because we have some other we have some other pods we might do between now and then, you know. We got lots of bots, lots of pods, lots of rewatching. And there's some very vague allusions.

Remember that bad baby at the live show who like shrieked louder than any person has ever shrieked? Very fun, very fun. The other thing I was thinking about with Lost and the idea of like the inheriting the mantle of the protector, again, we'll try not to use character names, but that how long am I going to have to do this job question? Yeah. Okay. Let's go from that into this incredibly emotional and intense stretch that is going to be very sad and hard to talk about. Look, he slips back, Joe, to the loom room right as we hear, welcome, he who remains. That's my favorite one of all the lines that you pointed out.

That's the one. That was perfect. Lokey who remains. I'm just really sad. It's very sad. Oh, God. I'm so proud of him. Man, I am so proud of him too.

I really am. And like, we are not going to play out the same time loop as we see really quickly because he looks back at the friends that he told Sylvie last week he didn't want to live without, right? When she said, what's wrong with wanting something Loki? And he said, I want my friends back. I don't want to be alone. See, we're both selfish. And like, what's wrong with wanting something was like,

sometimes you hear a line and a thing that you're watching. You're just like, this is like the truth of existence. And there's nothing wrong with wanting something. And we have to really understand that about Loki to feel the weight of his sacrifice. And we do. He channels that new glorious purpose, the burden of it. He smiles. Very sadly, as he looks at his friends as the camera swirls and pans around that room,

and then he walks down those stairs without saying a word to them. And there was, I think, a lot on all of our minds here. I have to talk about Harry Potter for a minute, but why don't we talk first about two MCU staples, Joe, because I think it's very difficult on the brink of Loki's sacrifice here to not think about the idea of the sacrifice play in the MCU. an idea that has been present since Avengers when Cap and Tony

and our Avengers' susceptible team are fighting Loki himself, right? And we associate this with some of the most prominent figures in the MCU, like the centers of the Infinity saga. I know, guys, with none of that worth 10 of you, I've seen the footage, the only thing you really fight for

is yourself. You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play. To lay down on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you. and then Tony replies to Steve, I think I would just cut the wire. And so every single thing that they do from there, both of them. But of course, Tony's sacrifice and endgame,

we're thinking about that history and what changed for the characters to get to that point. And when we watch Tony giving his own eulogy at his funeral via Hollow, and he says that's the hero gig, right? Part of the journey is the end. Like I think when we were talking about the Elliott earlier, part of reading the text of this show is kind of in a way

rejecting the idea that there is an end because the end is in the beginning but it is nice to remember what an end in some form an end of a relationship an end of a possibility an end of a chapter what the weight of that is

when you have to stare it in the face and like for Loki to be making us think of Tony who delivered like the central sacrifice in the MCU I mean again we love a character on an arc but like this guy started off as a villain

this is fucking incredible. Okay, this is why I want to go to, so I'm really eager to hear your Harry Potter comp as well. I'm going to be the like meat in the sandwich and come back. I regret to inform you. Come back to Lost. No regrets here. I really don't know how to talk about this without spoiling it.

But our Hall of Fame Lost episode is called Through the Looking Glass. And it features one of the best television deaths of all time. So probably skip ahead if you don't want to hear me. talk about this. But like, are you skipped a head? Good. The character in that sequence, which is clear. Well, what's funny is that like I was, I was looking at other people's coverage of

this episode and they all were invoking Spock and Kirk when Spock locks himself into his chamber and, you know, is sacrificing himself and Kirk is banging on the glass. So I'm about to like do an obnoxious flex here. You're welcome. But like, I thought of Charlie Pace and Desmond. on either side of the glass and through the looking glass. And I texted David Lindeloff and I was like, it never occurred to me. I was like, how much was through the looking glass inspired by Kirk and Spock?

And he was like 37%, which is a classic David answer. And I was like, okay. And he's like, it's intentional, the glass, the hands, the banging, like all that sort of stuff. And I was like, okay. All right. So it's the same, we're touching the same, you know, nerve of storytelling. But very specifically, Spock has always been a noble character. Charlie Pace was a loser locked in a cycle of addiction,

who leading up to his big sacrifice play that he makes and through the looking glass, is going back through his being told that he's going to die, is going back through the list of his own, his greatest hits is what the episode's called, the greatest hits of his life, the times in which he was able to, a touch glorious purpose of some kind or another. And I'm going to cry. Like Charlie making a snob decision of this is what I got to do and closing the door against Desmond.

And Desmond banging on the glass and like him just I, it's one of the most important things that I've ever seen on television. And like this beat with Loki here misses that a bit only, because I think I would have loved to have seen more from Sylvie and Mobius. And I think they would be extremely capable of it. I'm just like a little surprised we didn't see like sort of more horror and, you know, anguish or whatever from them. But, but Loki, Tom's performance, pulling, invoking Dom Monaghan. Like, it's just, I couldn't ask for anything better.

Absolutely. I'm crying. I started to leap listening to you talk about Charlie. Charlie Pace. A frustrating character on an endless looping cycle until they figured out something brilliant to do with him, which is kill him. So, you know, one of the best episodes of television ever.

Ever. I love that. I'm really sad right now. It's very emotional. The thing that this made me think of most was... My favorite Harry chapter, which is the forest again from Deathly Hallows, which is Harry's walk. Harry's walk to his sacrifice for a lot of reasons. But specifically, Loki just turning and walking away because he knows if he stops for a second,

he won't be able to take the steps that he needs to take. so Harry doesn't speak to Ron or Hermione or Jenny or Luna quote he felt he would have given all the time remaining to him for just one last look at them but then would he ever have the strength to stop looking it was better like this like I just couldn't stop thinking of that would he ever have the strength to stop looking when Loki had to like pull his eyes away and one of the things that I love so much about that chapter, spoilers, obviously, is that when Harry gets to the edge of the forest, he had to make that choice, and he had to push through knowing that he wouldn't have the strength to do it if he spent another moment with his friends. But he turns the stone because he still wants,

it doesn't mean that he's ready to be alone. And the stone grants him companionship in the way that the branches do for Loki. Like, he hears the whispers and echoes of Mobius later, and it made me think of Harry walking with the shadows of his parents and Sirius and Lupin and saying to them, like, you'll stay with me until the very end. And it was just like, it just shredded me to, like, think about it.

He passed through it with his companions, and they acted like patronesses to him, like, that you can lose people. Yeah. Or leave them and they're still like they're your strength still. And like that's the choice that Loki made. And it's just like so beautiful. We're just both weeping.

Emotional. Oh, God. Man. Can I get personal for a second? Please. As if we've been personal through stories. but let me, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do my best, like, Van impression and tell you. I was debating whether or not to talk about this, but like,

it always is important to me when Van, like, brings in personal life anecdotes when he talks about how he processes story. So, um, this is something you know, but I don't necessarily talk about a ton. Um, is that like about 10 years ago or so, um, I went, uh, no contact with significant parts of my family. Um, and part of the reason to do that, though I didn't know at the time, but I, like, and my life so significantly changed for the better, unfortunately, like, when that happened, it was, you know, a hard decision, but the really, the right decision and, like, has remained a hard decision. But to go back to that idea of, like, the mirrors that certain people aim back at us. So when you have this moment when like Mobius and Sylvie Chase after Loki and we heard it in the opening clip and he says, I know what kind of God I need to be for you for all of us, which is an intentional invocation of this very important moment from the end of Thor when Loki's hanging off the rainbow bridge and he says, I could have done it, father, for you for all of us. And Odin says, no, Loki, right? You couldn't have you couldn't.

And, like, is Odin probably right in that moment? Probably. But, like, the idea, again, to go back to this idea of mirrors, the idea that, like, Odin and Thor have always told Loki who he is, Thor and Thor Ragnarok, oh, brother, you're becoming predictable. I trust you, you betray me round and around in circles we go. See Loki, life is about, it's about growth, it's about change, but you seem to just want to say the same.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you'll always be. the god of mischief, but you could be more, you know, blah, blah. So, like, you could be more. Okay, great. That's, like, similar to what Moby's says. And that Loki is very close to his breakthrough that leads to his sacrificial moment in Infinity Aurora. But there's, I just think it's so important. And I talked about this a lot in season one that I didn't get to cover with you. He's so important for us to get this Loki story without Thor. Like, the Loki and Thor story has always been this, like, knotty double act and Kinnati double act. And like the fact that like

Loki needed to meet Sylvia and literally fall in love with himself or have Mobius tell him that he can change and he can be better. There's just unfortunately sometimes in families like this toxic feedback loop who it's not really anyone's fault. It just you get locked in a pattern of like there's a version of you reflected back at you that makes

you feel extremely limited in like what you can do. and that Loki needed to not have his dad there and not have his brother there and have other people tell him what he could do in order to achieve this is very impactful to me personally in a story to watch. It's just so beautiful and so much deeper than the MCU ever needed to go. But here we are, you know? So I love you. I love you too.

Thank you for sharing that. But yeah, it's just like, it's important to surround yourself with people who, you know, believe in the capacity for change. It's really important, you know. I think you're the best. I think you're the best. Go back to what's the great Mobius line about Loki falling in love with himself. You're a narcissist. Right?

Like, it is, it is. And that's hilarious. but it's also like important for Loki to follow them to themselves. Yeah. And that's how you heal, right? To like look inward and recognize all aspects of who you are and find the people who can help you with the parts that you want to improve but also celebrate like that specific brew. That's you, right? That's what friendship is.

That's what family is. And that's why I found family stories are so beautiful and so meaningful. Love you. We got this email from Lauren. Lauren had tweeted us about the for you for all of us callback, but also raises this line from the First Avengers. When Thor says to Loki,

you think yourself above them and Loki says, well, yes. And Thor says, then you miss the truth of ruling brother the throne would suit you ill. And so, again, that's like, I hope Whedon getting his most torturously Shakespearean.

But I think that, like, to your great earlier point about this idea of Loki needing to access something resembling humanity or his connection to humanity to not think himself the boot and then the ants, but, you know, for them to be equally worthy of free will, right? Right. Which is the conversation we've been having about his idea of humans needing to be ruled, all that sort of stuff. It's really paying all off. It is. It's beautiful. Long walk. You love a long walk.

I love a long walk. It's the best. Our guy, Vassaris. We miss him still. Good old, sirs. The, and Anne has no quarrel with the boot line.

It was on my mind with the slipper. When we get the incredible, we're about to talk about the walk down the gangway in this incredible transformation. And that's slipper, in addition to just being a cause for, amid this very emotional stretch of our podcast, a little impromptu Fitwatch.

We can't help ourselves. it did feel deliberate to like give us this gentle, slight, soft steps. Yeah. Soft, slipper-clad foot from the guy who famously said an aunt has no quarrel with a boot. I really love that. In the vein of what makes a loki-a-loki.

Yeah. What makes a slipper? What's the difference between a slipper and a loafer? Because I was calling loafer. I'm not objecting to calling them slippers. I think a loafer is acceptable as well. This felt a little, this felt a little more inside shoe than outside shoe to me, though. I do have indoor loafers as well.

But I don't have outdoor slippers. I guess that's like maybe where I would. It could be a drama distinction. It could easily be a gentleman slipper. Yeah. Or a loafer. I love both. Sockless.

Yes. Some great ankles here. Everybody exiting the limo at the beginning of a, a bachelorette season. You know, they could never. The amount of ankle that we see. Like, it's just the bar is now here, and everyone else has to try to clear it. Sorry, that's the rule. That was so funny.

That's the rule. We got this great email from Brooke, breaking down the outfit, right? And Brooke says, Loki's outfits were usually extravagant. They had a lot of detail or very elegant, decadent, and even bit gaudy. When Loki walks out towards the temporal loom and his TVA uniform peels away, we see his new outfit emerge, and this time it isn't the overly showy garb. We are used to seeing the outfit is toned down considerably. even the green color is less vibrant. It's still elegant and beautiful. It still is a cape because, of course, Loki would not cape and the shoes are very Loki-esque-esque, but it doesn't feel

haughty anymore. Even the horns are less shiny than his previous one. Loki now strikes the delicate balance of dressing like a god without overly indulging in the role of it. And I would say my footnote to that is like more burdened purpose than glory, right? This is a purposeful, you know, the cape becomes the strands of time, which I will talk about in a second. And, you know, And like, I love, oh, I God, I love your idea of, like, soft shoe, no boot, soft shoe. And then, like, these horns that, like, are no longer decorative, they look like, you know, he needs them to plow forward as, like, an oxen, like, pulling, you know, a heavy carriage. But also, like, they're embossed with the golden, like, the burden. The burden is engraved now on, like, what a perfect embodiment of I don't want a throne, right?

Like the crown is a reminder of your burden. I don't want it. I don't want it. Thank you, Steve. Oh boy. He reaches out, Joe. And just like classic Loki last season, he like channels this magic. He breaks the loom.

The timeline bursts. The branches shift from gold to black. I thought this was stunning visually. This whole sequence was just so imaginative and vivid. He collects the yearning tendrils. He opened, I mean, it's reithed in green, but it almost looked like an eye of saron-esque, like slit in the sky to me to go through to the void,

to march toward the citadel at the end of time. And toward that epilogue, that epilogue that we kept herein was still being written toward melding order and chaos in his specific way. With the magic, the guys had a really interesting conversation about the magic and how willing is like everybody watching the show to just say, I understand how this character has this new magic now, whether it's what we see here,

is able to wield this new magic, channel it, whether it's what we see here or like anything in the last two episodes, really. And this is where like what I, what I mentioned earlier about the history inside of the series in particular of like how Loki and Sylvie talked about learning new magic, which is so like so present in my mind for me here. Like specifically on the train in episode three of season. one when he's explaining what Frigga taught him and specifically what she taught him, not like about the literal magic that he would cast, but about what it meant to be able to do

something new. It all seemed impossible. There's that idea again of the impossible, right? But she told me that one day I'd be able to do it because I could do anything. And like, you mentioned them grasping hands at the end of season one to enchant Eliath together. and Loki spent episodes at that point being like enchantment. How does this work? And he literally says, I don't know how when Sylvie says we're going to enchant it.

That is not a thing we ever hear Loki say. I don't know how to do a thing, ever. And she says you do because we're the same. And then he does it because he believes that he can. That's the fiction and the science fiction. On the, on the, I love that they don't explain the magic, right? And we did get this great email from our listener, Charlie, that, um, with another subject line that I absolutely loved.

Silent magic and babbling science. I loved this. Charlie wrote, A Seasoning gloriously tangled in Technobabble, like temporal oras, looms, etc., something we criticized season for, was resolved by magic with a K.

No explanation needed. Total silence from the character as he weaves his magic, replaces the babble of scientific explanation at three times speed that everyone else spent a season inundating us with. I love that. Also,

the imagery wise of his clothing peeling away. Our pal over at Screencrush, Rineri said it was like a snake shedding its skin. And I love that because we've talked so much about, right, about like the idea of the oromores and the snake. And yeah, yeah, we're about to talk about a mythic tree. I'm sure. And then Jen, I'm calling this one the all-Loki's theory because of the good old all-brands theory from Game of Thrones.

but Jen a lot of people A few people have pointed out You pointed out that like Loki stance with his hands up was very Richard D. Grant But a lot of people pointed out and I looked at the timestamp

it's 3726 in the Disney Plus timestamp it looks like they might have slightly digitally elongated Tom's face to make it look a little bit more like Richard E Grant and I like kind of buy it

but what I didn't notice until Jen pointed out and I rewatched and it's totally true at 3650 before he's sprouts the massive horns. He has a crown on, and it is kid Loki's crown. So I just love this idea that he's like, you know, he's stepping and he's, at one point

he's Kid Loki, and then he's classic Loki, you know what I mean? Like, he's all the Loki's. And he's all of the things they can be at once. And it's just phenomenal. And like for all the ways in which we have been, I think, rightly criticizing the MCU for some of the visual effects that have cropped up here and there, this whole sequence. I was just like, oh, this is what they spent all their time and money on is this. They're like, we're not going to fuck this up and they didn't.

I just think it's incredible start to finish. I completely agree. I thought it was beautiful, like absolutely visually resplendent. Sublime. Sublime. Oh, Joe, he takes slipper or loaferclad step after slipper or loaferclad step. All of his friends are watching. Sylvie says he's giving us a chance.

And he goes through that slit. Phrasing. Maybe not in the way that we were hoping we'd see. Oh, boy. I almost said it when you said slit earlier, but you were in the middle of such a beautiful point that I was like, now's not the time during that. Yeah, you trusted that you would have another opportunity and you did.

Yeah. This is what we mean when one of us points to the other, like Loki and Mobius says, trust me. climbs the steps to the citadel. The gold is pulling. And he takes his throne, the one he did not want, the monumental meaning of this arc

that paired with the anguish of it. The incredible satisfaction, paired with the heartache of the sacrifice. What do you want to say here? And what do you want to say about the god of stories aspect of this as well? I mean, we had, I was thinking it was interesting. I was thinking like, obviously we got the spot on email two pods ago now.

Yeah. I was thinking about our Hall of Fame pod because one of the things we spent a few minutes on, listen to the Hall of Fame pod, if you haven't. Is it outdated now? Sure. But I think it was a worthy exercise. Boy, have we mentioned we love a character in an arc? We did a quick comics corner and we highlighted like a couple comics runs that felt like very

relevant to the show. And one of the ones that we talked about was Agent of Asgard, which is like, obviously has just the fingerprints of that run are all over the show and have been since season one. And on that, like, idea of stories, I was like, looking back, the origin

quote, like early in the run is the one that I cited. It's a Thor warning, like a harbinger, right? So his brother Loki, smarting over a few minor squabbles, decided to play the role of villain, but the gods are creatures of magic, creatures of story. We must be careful with,

which roles we step into. And I love, like, remembering, again, that, like, things could have gone wrong. They could have gone differently. And that's actually the beauty. Remembering that it could have gone another way is part of what makes, I think, it's so impactful that this is where we landed. Well, agents of regards to such an interesting. And, again, like, shout out to the bad baby.

Shout out to Molly Rubin. Shout out to all the people who have been, like, citing this. That baby is always crushing it. But, like, the, like you said earlier, the Loki emails. Especially. Especially so. Crystal ball level. textual reading here. It's wonderful.

But I think that, like, you know, something that we cited, Waldron is saying is that, like, you know, this idea of Kid Loki was interesting to him because it was like, you know, can a Loki reinvent himself? It's like so foundational to season one. Is it like that? The story of Kid Loki, like, feeds into Agent of Asgard. You know what I mean? And again, in Agent of Asgard, he is confronted by older King Loki, you know, like the older villainous version of himself. Dave and I talked about this last week with those.

a quote, you know, from Verity, you know, the character that B-15 is ultimately named after about, like, you know, Canna-Loki Change? I don't know, but certainly not if you put him in a box labeled Loki and nail the lid shut on him, you know what I mean? So it's like that idea of Canna-Loki Change? So the, in Ages of Asgard, that, that comic that he ultimately does transform from God of Chaos, God, of Misstead into God of Stories. It's not the same as this. He's not doing a long walk. He's not pulling the threads of time and stuff like that. But there are some visuals like a, you know, um, it drizzle the, the tree that like sort of green, you know, swoopy maids of cables of time. So like all that sort

stuff. There is a drawing in, there's art in that book that is like very similar to what we wind up with there. So like, yeah, I mean, that that turned out to be like, I think the key text of this season and it's a great comic and I would really encourage people to read it. Can I take you? Please. to William Butler Yates Corner. Please. I was really struck by the visuals of, and I had to, like, I stopped and I rewound it before I finished the episode. So he's walking, he's gathering the threads of time and pulling them.

But then his cloak, his cape also turns into threads of time. And I was reminded of this Yates poem that I love called He Wishes for the Clause of Heaven. And he says, the poem is short. It says, had I the heavens embroidered cloths and wrought with golden silver light, the blue and the dim and the dark cloths of night and light and the half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet, but I being poor have only my dreams. I've spread my dreams under your feet, tread softly because you tread on my dreams. And like this idea of trading in the like rich, you know, raiments of like,

like royalty of godhood or whatever for people's literal dreams, their lives, their free will, like woven into the fabric of what he's wearing and that he has to tread off on his slipper clad foot, has to tread softly on this path because he is holding in his hands, is wrapped up in it, the dreams and the hopes and the lives of these people that he is

sworn to protect. And it just like, kills me. It kills me. It's so beautiful and so incredibly satisfying. Like, to see Loki on the throne, not because they were made to be ruled, right, to go back to the Avengers speech,

not to cap or thwart or control the way he remains did with the loom and the sacred timeline, or the way a prior Loki might have, but to protect those dreams, like to cradle them in his, actual hands and ensure that they can make their own choices, the way that he wanted to and the way that Sylvie wanted to, like, to take that fucking Oden line from the first Thor, the beginning of the first Thor movie, that only one of you can ascend the throne.

But both of you were born to be kings, like to pit them against each other so early and make resentment the central text of their shared experience. And to have Loki wind up after saying the last thing I wanted is a throne because his growth and his progress was so tied to rejecting his base and worse instincts, right? And to have him sit there and know that that was strength is just incredible.

I was thinking of like collodial saying he passed the test, you know? Like he passed the test. And like he had to go through the test in order to pass it. Touch the darkness. Had to touch the darkness. Sometimes you can't know until you touch the darkness.

Oh. Can I have. hit you with some Campbell. Always. Literally always. It is just the thrill of my life to be able to talk about the hero's journey when we're talking about Loki. Like what a fucking time!

Yeah. Oh my God. So this is from the apotheosis section of The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Tell me if this quote reminds you of anything we just saw. Those who know not only that the everlasting lives in them. but that what they and all things really are is the everlasting. Dwell in the grooves of the wish-fulfilling tree. Drink the brew of immortality and listen everywhere to the unheard music of Eternal Concord.

These are the immortals. It's like literally what we just saw. Like Loki's apotheosis, his journey to understanding and to achieving true heroism. Can you say the line, the music line again? And listen everywhere. To the unheard music of eternal concord. These are the immortals. So, like, on the one hand, the music is that murmurs along the, like, timelines that he's

holding in his hands, right? But also, as we already did, but, like, we need to do it again here. We need to talk about the score and what Natalie Holt does with the score here. Unbelievable. Otherworldly. Maybe my favorite MCU music ever. It's incredible. It's what is playing here.

Yeah. I can actually, in the final stretch, the after, the stretch after the after car, I could, like, barely contain myself because of the score. And, like, it reminds me, is this the last time we'll talk about lost? Maybe, I don't know. But you just have to play, like... Professor Tolkien is always welcome and so is a lost reference. These are the rules of the pod. You just have to play, like, it's tangentially related to the MCA because Michael Chikino directed where we're all finite. Okay, so Michael Chikino, the composer of loss. there are some tracks where you just have to play like the first five notes and I have a Pavlovian crying response. Moving on is one of them. There's like the raft theme from season one, the reuniting on the beach themes.

Like there are just these score moments. And I'm not a huge. I know some people have that relationship also with Rameen Javadi score for Thrones. I, I, there are Thrones themes that I love. But I don't have that like if I hear the Stark, well, maybe. Never mind. Maybe if I hear the Stark theme, I'll start crying. But it's rare. It's honestly very rare for me.

And Natalie Holt is joining, you know, Jacino and Javadi is like all-timer TV score. It's just incredible. I was thinking of our pal and beloved colleagues, Zach Kramm, because one of the things he does is he listens to his favorite movie and TV scores when he writes. Yeah. And I always was like, how do you do that? Because I would be just so distracted because I would just start thinking about the thing and then go watch it. But I can see how it would like unlock that feeling, you know? that you're trying to channel in the thing that you're then making. Beautiful.

I have a Spotify playlist that's just like TV and movie themes that I really love. But like, like, usually they like ramp me up. You know what I mean? I'll listen to like the same Christmas Day theme from Henry V or like, you know, something like that. Or the or the, or Las of the Mohicans or something like, these are scores that are just like, yeah, you know. But like if I want to just curl up on a ball on the floor and weep it stuff like this. So, yeah, here we are. Speaking of curling up on the floor

and a ball and weeping, the tragedy of the sacrifice? We've obviously been talking about this the whole pod today, but just another beat here on this because the idea of Loki, a character who has been like long tormented by that,

the fear of the truth behind that SIF attack, right? Like, does he deserve to be alone? And of course he doesn't, and that's part of this journey for him is realizing that. But to see him, wind up in solitude. Like, we do not want that for him.

And it is so deeply painful. But of course, that's what makes it. That's what makes it a worthy sacrifice. And, like, I think it's important, you know, we were wondering why necessarily they brought up the Battle of New York earlier this season. I think it's important to remember what Loki has done. Yes. And that, you know, we're happy to call him a hero, but, like, he doesn't deserve, you know.

to bop around all the time and space and a tartess with Sylvie for the rest of his life. Like, that's not what he gets to do because of what he's done. You know what I mean? And like, to a certain degree, this is like a very like tartarus, like, you know, if you talk about unique punishments for people, like, Sisy is pushing a boulder up a hill or tantalus and the tree in the water receding from his touch or like whatever it is, it's like the idea that he gets to hold them. but and see them

but not be with them is like a very again to talk about like a bespoke as bespoke hell like it is a very creative hell for Loki I mean it makes me think of like

of Will and Lyra or Tannen Rose like separated by this veil and you know that the other person is okay you know that they're there but you're not with them and I mean the other there was a really curious thing on the Disney Plus splash page when the finale launched. I don't know if you saw this where it's like there was a banner at the top

and it was like Loki and I think Mobius running behind him. And it just said he's bad. Like that's all it said. Did he even say like Loki or whatever? It was just like Tom Hiddleston and Owen Wilson sort of like looking very hooey and like running through time and space or whatever. And they just said in big block letters he's bad. And I was like, what?

I did not see that. Interesting. I didn't know. I meant like, he's bad in the late 80s kind of way that you would say someone was bad, but like, I was just like, oh man,

I hope so. Or they're like, we're about to surprise you because he's good at the end of this. I don't know, but I was like, who approved this? I don't. I've been told that no one is ever truly bad.

Ever truly good. So, the other thing that this made me think of is like, one of the things I was sad to not get to talk to you about. among many other things last week, the iconic Zaniac arcade game appearance, which you guys talked about, I just like went into like a silent,

reflective stupor when I saw the, the home screen, one or two players. And like that question, like one or two players. And like you want it to be a two player game or a many, many player game. Like that's Loki's journey is embracing that. And then to have to have to be the only, one with the joystick in your hand at the end is just like so heart-wrenching.

But it's not a joystick. It's the world tree. What would you like to say about this? Dazzle? This, the world, the fact that they brought it all back to Norse mythology is incredible. So good. In Czrazil, if you haven't studied Norse mythology, you might have heard Thor talk to Jane about it in the first Thor movie. But this is the tree of, of, of, you know, you know, and you might have heard Thor.

the world tree that holds all the realms, the nine realms, etc. Or if you saw Thorloven Thunder, he had a sort of iconography version of it on his muscle tea. One of my favorite parts of that movie.

But in Norse mythology, the Norns, the weavers, you know, shout out our Asoka pods, the fates who spin the threads of story and fate and time, sit at the base of the tree.

And so this idea that, like, he has become the norn, the spinner of the stories, the weaver of time, the story God, at the center of the world tree. I just, I just, like, it was so fucking brilliant for them to take this image

from season one to rotate it, to bulk it out, because it's not one sacred timeline now, we're doing the whole thing, to talk about all that organic stuff that we talked about before. And then, yeah, to just, like, make his ending so tied to his

pun intended roots of being a Norse god is absolutely brilliant. It's like tough to think of a better choice, honestly, that they could have made. I can't think of it because... I hope they like all treated themselves to a manicry pedicators that day. I don't know.

I fucking did it. You know what? They did. They did. You pat me on the back and I'll pat you on the back. We fucking did it. It reminds me of how we talk about that Odin's son. moment. Like the embrace of his Asgardian roots instead of the like trauma and resentment and pain that also is a part of that history. And like attaining that not as the god of mischief, the trickster god, but as the god of stories, like just so incredible. And that I think because the other thing we associate obviously with the Asgardian text of the MCU because of our journey with Thor and Mileneer is like worthiness.

like for Loki's path to worthiness to connect him to that history in the way that he chose and for him to be at the center of that creation, but also preservation of this force that like connects and ties and binds is just so good. So good. That would make a cool tattoo. I've always wanted a tattoo of a tree. We have like, me too. I have a hold.

We'll talk about it. But also add this like this number 20 on the list. list of joint tattoos that we're allegedly going to get. I know, but like, we are going to do it at some point. Okay. Why not? Okay. Steve is getting his first tattoo soon and then he'll be ready to join us.

I'm so excited for Steve's tattoo. I can't wait. Same. Joe, we head into the final stretch of the episode here. After. Period. Period. Period.

I was like walloped by that period. It felt so definitive. No ellipsies. Period. Man. I love that. I mean, really good. This is how you know that we're writers or you're an editor,

your like punctuation matters. That period matters. Oh, man. The copy desk was like, you should really put a period there. I would advise it. Craig Gaines got his hands on the script early. B-15, Joe,

strolling through the TVA. The monitor shows a tree now. The deepest character in all of Loki. Talk about a character who was underserved by C-Situ of Loki. B-15 is also here. Very upsetting. The character we were really excited to spend more time with. We love her.

We do. Very much so. I will just say on the comedy front that I was like a mess by this point in the episode and then was like in hysterics when we saw Miss Minutes. I fucking could not believe that they brought Miss Minutes back into the TVA and Obie's shrug. when it's like, is she going to kill us all? I don't know. It's like when they let Victor timely just wander around the TVA, you're like, what?

What? Yeah. No. My goodness. Little moment here where we allude to the quantum maniac king, because they're talking about, you know, they're keeping tabs on all of you who remains as variants. Do any of them know that we exist yet? Nope. I guess one of them.

caused a little bit of a ruckus on 616 adjacent realm, but they handled it. So we're all good for now. So interesting to just place these sequentially to the extent that anything is sequential. Automatium moment. Yeah. So when time doesn't exist in the TVA? Yeah.

Do you want to take a second here to talk about like the end note for Kang? Yeah. Whether that feels like a way to move on or a way to keep possibilities open or or what your read is on this. What's great about it is that it could be. Yes. If they needed to be. And like what's funny about like so that variety piece that came out last week,

um, in which I am quoting and I support Tatiana Siegel who, who reported it great, great work. She does have a quote from like an quote unquote anonymous deal maker who said they had seen the finale of Loki and said, well, they're well and truly fucked when it comes to Kang now.

And I'm just like, what episode did you watch? I feel the exact opposite. Yeah. And like I was talking to our pal Allen Sep and wall was like, like very, I love him, but he got, I saw myself, speaking of mirrors, I saw myself in him, he got like really wound up in a theory. He's like, I'm like you now, basically. He's like, I'm going to write a theory post. He was like, I know, he was like, Joina, I know this contradicts

everything I've ever like made fun of you about for all your theories, but I have a theory. And I was like, okay. And his theory is that they changed the ending to like make it so that they could write Jonathan Majors out. That is like, I think physically impossible. They finished shooting Loki October of last year. The charge is, you. against Jonathan Majors came out in March. Like, the timeline doesn't really add up. There was the writer's strike. Like, all this stuff happened.

Like, I just, I do not think that that is the case. But I think it gives them the opportunity to do that. And something that our pal Dave Gonzalez mentioned to me is he's like, I actually think this is why they dropped Loki instead of holding it. Because everyone was like, oh, my God. They're just going to put out Loki season two when this big Jonathan Major's, like, question is hanging over everything. And Dave's like, I think they put it out there because that now they have,

they have written an option where Kang can cleanly. be just sort of snuffed out of the ongoing Marvel universe. So, that speculation. But, like, that's a theory I can kind of get behind. Allens doesn't really, but I love that Alan got all wrapped up in his theory, but like,

the best. Speaking of X-West, Alan's son lost, Alan's up and well. But, like, I just think that yeah, they have the opportunity. We could never hear from King again, because the whole idea is that Loki's

workaround is we're going to make it so, you know, when he remains threatened with, all my variants are out there, the multivorcial war is going to happen if I'm not here, like all this or stuff like that. And look, he's like, no, we have another way, which is I'm going to sit on the Bowflex of Eternity, TM, Steve Allman,

and like lovingly hold the strands of time forever. And then my pals of the TVA, you know, Sylvie says he's giving us a chance, right? And my pals of the TVA, it's going to be their job to not violently prune the variance, but to gently, it's sort of like training a vine in a certain way, gently, you know, because like they don't prune Victor timely. They just make it so the handbook never reaches his window cell. Right.

You know what I mean? Yeah, that's one of the great flashes we get at the end is he's pouring the handle actually there's no guide book. Yeah. They're nudging the variance here and there and the other so that we don't. get these more world-conquering versions of Kang, he remains, etc. And free will with just a dash of surveillance and... Just on this one guy, the road.

Just a person. Just on this one person. It's fine. But so, again, they have the opportunity. Right. Even though we saw the, like, quantumania post-criminia. post credits where it seemed like Kang is everywhere. But like I actually

heard from someone recently. I was asking about, so the screenwriter Jeff Loveness who wrote Quantumania was supposed to write King Dynasty and then it was sort of like came out that maybe he was no longer anyway, it's confirmed. Like I

had to confirm to me he's no longer working for Marvel and that I asked the person why and they said the reason why was that like his stuff, you know, he was all wrapped up in this King's storyline and that they are likely going to be moving away from that. So no official announcement

that Avengers colon King Dynasty will now be called, you know, Doom's Dystopia or whatever. Like, no, we don't know like exactly what they're going to do, but to be clear. But I think that this just gives them perfect

opportunity. You know what I mean? To just be done. They want to be. All right. Doom's dystopia breaking news. You heard of. I'm going to hear first. Reddit? If I see that Reddit. You're being so brave.

It's incredible. It's like to hear. I really like to hear it. Ironic. Great stuff. Oh, man. Okay. One thing we know for sure, Joe.

Mobius has his file. You love a posted note. And here's one right on that folder that says your file as requested. Wait, why do you think I love a post-it note? Because you've told me before that you like to use post-it notes. You'll like put them around. I do love a posting note. I just didn't know you knew that about me.

You love an Ocean Vista. You love a post-it note. You hate a crevice. Hate a crevice. This is like the other day when you were like, what's a cross-body bag? And I almost said it's like your fanny pack mouth. And then I didn't. And then I explained what it was.

And then you were like, oh, it's like my fanny. Classic. Great stuff. Great stuff. B15 asks Mobius recognizes that he is leaving. And he says, you think the TVA is going to miss a tired,

washed up, bold analyst with a heart of gold? I just want to say yes. Because he is the best. The absolute best. I was very emotional when she asked him if he was scared. That's just like, oh, man, it really hit. He drags his feet notably, like we linger over the seal of the TVA before we then see that seal under the grassy knoll that Romona is perched upon in the void as Eliath contemplates whether to destroy her.

Either or not. And then we pan, Joe. I am just like so sad for you that we don't get any final moments with Brad here. It did feel like an affront and an injustice. And indignity. Rude. Like, like, eat shit stocks, but like. Brad, baby.

Where you've been? We see B-15 in a jam-packed war room. Lots of people in the mix in the war room now. Yeah. We see Obie open that box of second edition. Handbooks. More merch. Opportunities can't wait.

Three. Well done I'm old. Young Victor. Pouring the candle wax. No guidebook in the window. So they've broken the loop. Rivona. Awaking in the void as Eliath roars.

she has a very, I thought very determined the look on her face. Did you read that as like the end for Rivona or we will be seeing Ravona or other variants of Rvona at least again? There's at least the potentiality that we might. It doesn't seem like this is it for me. A very John Locke sees a smith monster

on a scene as moment for her. And we know that she was instrumental and taming a life in the first place. So, you know. And then we go to Cleveland. I'm going to amend a prior statement and say the thing I most regret not being able to talk to you about last week was me, a Baltimore sports fan having to confront that Mobius is a fan of rival teams. Speaking of people who care about sports, I had the pure pleasure of breaking the news to our pal, Ron Mahoney, that Mobius was in Ohio because he said something, he was like, oh, we were watching the Marvels. No major spoilers for the Marvels.

um Rob Mahoney is Texan at one point there's a diploma from Rice University which is a

Texas so we find out that there's a character who's definitely like closely associated with Texas in the

marbles and so Rob was I was like how did you feel about that Rob as a Texan or whatever and he was like

Mobius in this character the two closest ties to Texas I was like regretting for me oh no Rob Moby's from Ohio

he's like that was Ohio I was Ohio I'm so sorry oh man Rob the opposite absolute best. Great one. Great one. Just like Moeus. Two of the greats. Rob Mahoney and Mobius or Don.

I guess I should start calling him. It's like your baseball doc and your Riverside Shakespeare. The only two things you need. Mohonio and Mojian. Mojus. Maybe more iconic duo. You can't. I couldn't possibly. Joe. Here he is at last. Looking at that quote, something good that he was so afraid. to see. He's watching Don himself play with his sons. The look on Owen Wilson's face in this sequence at the end is like, I just like might never recover from it.

I was moved to tears. Sylvie, who confronted him when he just wanted pie and comfort in a moment's fucking peace on like his cowardice for not seeking out his own life, not looking at that or something good, something bad I can handle. What if it's something good? is there with him. And that really, like, shredded me that she was there with him to share that moment with him. Steve, can we, can we hear this gut-wrenching exchange? The yard could do with a bit of work.

No, it's the best house on the block. Never look, never know. It's weird that Loki's not here, isn't it? Yeah. Well, see you around, I guess. Where are you going to go? Yeah. I might just wait here for a little bit. We just can't.

It's too much. It's honestly too much. I am so bold over by the emotionality of this scene. That I am willing to absolutely put my logistical question on the shelf. Because he's watching himself play with the kids. So this is a timeline where this Mobius was never pruned or never left. But he seems like he's leaving the TV. It seems like he's not visiting.

He's leaving the TV. that was the implication of the conversation with B-15. So is he going to let time pass and watch them here and then go find a branch where Mobius died in a Jeski accident and take care of those kids? I don't know what the plan is. Or is he just like doomed to sort of bounce around

because he doesn't have a place to go home to or something like that. It doesn't much matter because I am so blown away by the performance and I just might wait here for a little bit. Let time pass is. one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard someone say. Best House on the Block. Incredible. And like that let time pass line is what is echoing and reverberating through the scene as we, as they're saying, look, it's weird, looks like he is. And we get to see him with those tears and his eyes and that smile, that look of contentment. That was Van described it as contentment. And I felt the same way about it. Like as he hears that and knows that his friends are okay. And like,

I was thinking back to Loki, to Sylvie and the McDonald's and the stinger of the season two premiere. Like, I just, I want to try everything. And, like, to just be there with these two who are in different places still with discovering aspects of themselves, like the journey that everybody's on. But it's just, like, a sunny day, a quiet day. It is just a regular day and a regular place. And, like, that is specifically the thing that they,

wanted, like that they wanted to be able to linger inside of. And so for that idea of let time pass to be the gift that Loki gave him and for him to know that they were holding it in their hands and embracing it and celebrating it is just like such a meaningful. And no, it was so beautiful. I have a little more to say on that, actually in a later section to surprise you, but to pre-surprise you. So I won't say it here. But I'll say, later. But yeah, I mean, I feel very lucky that we got to watch this episode television and talk about it together.

Sylvie, in terms of like which character is what I want to see again out of this, I kind of feel like Owen Wilson's done and that's okay. I can't accept it. I think Owen Wilson. I can't accept it. I'm just based on like, it feels like Owen Wilson would want to make two seasons of a Marvel show but not be like a Marvel guy forever. kind of feels like what's true of Owen Wilson.

Sylvie, however, is a character that I really hope we get to see mixing it up in the future. And, you know, I wouldn't be surprised at members of the TVA just, like, show up at some point in the future. But as I said earlier, I really need this Loki to keep his butt on the seat and his slippers on the ground. Joe, what an incredible episode of television. What an incredible time talking about it with you. Should we go rapid fire through some of our little categories here? Yeah. Anything for Theory Corner?

That you want to date on? No. No, we got nothing for you, Steve. Sorry. Again, faster. Next. Easter eggs. For me, it has to be the world tree.

Yeah. It has to be. I don't see how it can. be anything else. So I do love the, the, I do love the glorious purpose, double title in our Oraboros on, on the episode front, but yeah. An SEO nightmare, but it is. It's a tough one out there. Tough one for the wiki entries. My goodness. I am intrigued by that, that TVA seal in the void under Ravona's feet, but yeah, I don't see how it could be anything but the, the world tree. Whigwatch. Do you wear wigs?

two quick entries here. Number one last week we pointed out the well actually three quick things, wig reveals that Owen also was definitely wearing a wig in season one because apparently he talked about it on the making of

Loki thing but in the previously on when they were like zipping through clips the contrast between the Mobe's season one wig and the Movis season two wig was so startling to me that I'm saying like wig quality very desperate. Also speaking of of actors posting behind the scenes content post sag after a settlement.

Sophia Di Martino posted her getting her Sylvie wig put on the mullet wig, the wig that I said I thought was for real hair. So I apologize. Please take my wig credentials. I've been wrong twice now on the Loki wig friend. But Sylvie's Mollett, fashion mullet is a wig. So there you go. Last and not least.

Devastating, honestly. I know. I didn't need to confess that, but I did. I'm going to keep myself honest and everyone else around me honest. Our listener Atlee wrote in and said, but what I really want to comment on is the last and most epic hair flip in Loki history, and that's saying something. That last one right before he goes out on the bridge and sacrifices self,

become the god of time is truly a thing of profound beauty. It also really made me realize that once he steps out and the horn helmet starts growing, the hair flipping is done. He's ascended, become a true god, and he now has a crown to hold back his hair. Honestly tragic. I didn't think it could get more tragic and then it did. The Loki Memorial Hairflip Watch.

Oh, boy. Has ended. Now our hair flip watch has ended. Sad. Someone on, I'm not going to say stole my bit because hair flip watch kind of existed before I did it. But anyway, someone on Twitter has been tracking all of the Loki hair flips. And listen, podcast is an auditory experience. This really is something you need to see.

So me trying to describe the hair flips was never really a good bit. Someone has been clipping them together and putting them on Twitter. So, like, you can go see all of the loki hair flips from all season are on. Good old Twitter.com. What a great website. Next. No, it's not. It's the worst.

A hell pit. What a bad website. If this episode had Netflix subtitles. Can I ask you go first? Yeah. Because this is a special moment I have for you. Exciting. I'm going out with just a simple classic. Just, but playing the hits here.

This is the, you mentioned greatest hits earlier. This is the greatest hits one. God of slippers and stories labors toward void as yearning tendrills distend greenly. I had to get yearning tendrils and distends back in there once more as we wrap or run. Who knows what the next going on there? Well, like, again, we are lamenting the lack of. Sure. Yeah.

Sadly not enough of that this season. But had to hit the yearning ten rules and the descending once more. What do you got? This is an email, a surprise email from our listener, Matt Midevich, who's also a great pop culture writer in TV line. But a very loyal listener. Thank you so much all the time, Matt, for all your engagement. Matt wrote an email to us saying, FYI, audio description lady said that at the very end,

that Loki's face there on the throne turned into a quote heartbroken expression which I don't think was that apparent to blind eye yet significant so like that idea I also was like oh he's content but audio description lady says

heartbroken expression I mean there were tears in his eyes so it's like it's all it's all part of it for him I can only quote Camoo this moment and say there's this sorry, I'm sorry,

there's this famous line from Camus I was already speaking about like bespoke prisons. There's this famous line from Camus where he says one must imagine Sisyphus happy. Right? Yeah. So if he's in his like Sisyphian like bespoke hell of holding these things

and he is heartbroken, but one must imagine it like just just so that we're not forever tormented by this. One must imagine so one one must imagine that with the heartbreak is also that contentment of I was able to give this to them. I was able to give that to Mobius. I was able to give Sylvie the opportunity to bop around where the hell she was shrug.

Like in that clip we played, which is really funny. It's like, where are you going? You hear nothing? And she's like, you. Because she shrubs. And I like that. And I don't know. And that's the point.

I don't have to know. Just get to go wherever I want. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love it. This was a joy. Yeah. Yeah.

She says simply, a true delight. I'm really, I'm so glad we watch this. And I'll say this was just every Just every ounce Of absolute Just like brimming with love in my heart Eat shit Chris and Andy on the watch This is beautiful television

You're being so brave They know I love them They know I absolutely adore them From my fingers to my toes Incredible But I understand a lot of their complaints And we also had our own about this season But at the end is so worth the journey

This is such an incredible Again, we love a character on an arc, you know, including the watch. We did it. We made a podcast. We sure did. It was beautiful. All right, friends, we're not questioning your surprisingly advanced engineering skills, but we have reached the end of today's episode. Nonetheless, thank you as always to our favorite timekeepers, not only for today's episode, but for the whole Loki run. Steve Allman for producing this episode. Ors Juno Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, head back into the ringerverse on Sunday for Jessica's splash page breakdown of this finale. Monday, you'll have a new button mash on Call of Duty.

Head back also on Monday into the House of R for our deep dive into the marvels and then come back at the end of the week Friday for some Scat Pilgrim talk. Until then. And then it's who time. Who time. Who time. Who o'clock? It's coming.

It's always who o'clock. Timey, whimey. Yeah, baby. Until then, tape your right thumb, left knee, and face plate, or the temporal radiation will peel your skin right off.