House of R - 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

Mal and Joanna take a trip back to Coruscant and dive deep into the fifth episode of 'Obi-Wan Kenobi'. But first, they begin by giving their thoughts on the latest 'Game of Thrones' spinoff news (06:07). Then they sink their teeth into this new episode and the major themes and revelations within (18:23). They are also joined by Ben Lindberg, who provides an education on Force Ghost lore (02:07:39), as well as Jomi to answer your mailbag questions (02:27:04). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's over. Your need for victory, Anakin. It blinds you. You're a great warrior, Anakin. But you'll need to prove yourself as your undoing. Until you overcome it, a Padawan you will still be. And welcome into the ringerverse. here on the Ringer podcast network.

I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to our base on Jabeem, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today,

now that she's finished telling me to get her the ladder, you trust me? I trust her. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson. Hello there. We have one more episode to get a hello there.

We're holding on. We better. We better. Oh, boy, Joe. We have so much to get to today. We are, of course, here to chat at length about the latest Obi-1 Canobi episode, part five. But before then, we have an ample programming reminder slate to run through. So many pods.

You don't even have to wait until Monday this week for a new Ringervverse pod because the Mint Edition crew, Steve and Jomey will be back on Sunday to break down Lightyear, the newest Pixar film. By the way, check out Pixar Week on the ringer.com. What a great website. And then on Monday, it's another House of Midnight Boys Breakdown with Van, Charles, and Joe. Those pods have been spectacular. Check them out. And then on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys,

booboo! We'll of course be back with their instant reaction to the Obi-1-Kinobi finale. It's already finale time. Unbelievable. And then on Thursday, Joe and Co. will have their Miss Marvel episode three breakdown. And then on Friday, Joe will be back yet again because we will have our House of Our Obi-One-Kanobie finale deep dive. You'll also be able to hear Joe on the trial by content feed, the prestige TV feed. Joe's got a lot of pods coming for you next week. Check them all Oh, yeah, Westworld's coming, guys. Yeah.

Give a little Westworld teas for the people. Bring yourself back online. Danny Hyphist and David Schumacher and I will be doing Westworld. We're doing a Westworld preview podcast to, like, get yourself caught up. What have you forgotten? What should you remember? Bring yourself back online. And then we will be there week to week, I believe on Mondays, picking up what Westworld is throwing down.

I'm really excited because David and Danny did such a great job. with their own Westworld coverage the last couple years. And I, of course, was like potting about it elsewhere. So for us to sort of wonder triplet our way through Westworld, I'm really excited for that combination. So yeah. Under triplet. Incredible. I can't wait. Can't wait. A little behind on Westboro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thrilled and delighted that you're going to be potting together. Can't wait for that. A lot of people are. And I'll just say this. If you didn't love last season. I have seen an episode of the new season.

I think it's going to be a big upswing from last season. That's what I think. I think they learned some lessons. Let's go. You can pull me out of cold storage. I'm back. Hell yeah. Okay.

How can you follow all of that? You can follow all of that here on the ringerverse, on the prestige feed, on the trial by content feed everywhere by following the pod. on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, follow the ringer versus myriad social feeds. The ringer versus everywhere,

including now on TikTok. Jomi is absolutely crushing it with the social delights that await a bounty of goodness every day for you. So check it all out. And of course, the final reminder here at the top.

Today, every day. Spoiler warning. Bear it in mind. Friendly Neighborhood Spoiler Warning. Today's podcast will feature plot details from the episode of television that we are here to discuss. Obi-1 Canobi. Part 5. The entire Obi-1 Canobi series to date and all of Star Wars can and all of it, it's all on the table. So proceed with caution.

Proceed with more caution than Vader did when conducting a transport traffic stop without seeing how many transports were there. Okay. It is defense, Mallory. There was a light coating of dust in the air. between himself and transport number two. Oh boy, it's true. Joe, before we dive in to our deep, deep, deep dive of part five, you want to spend like a hot second here right at the top

talking about some Game of Thrones murmurs? Rumors and whispers galore. They say words or wind, but there's still a light of the internet. My text messages were popping off last night. Yeah, so late in the day yesterday in the evening, James Seabird over at T.H.R. He used to be an entertainment weekly.

Now he was a Hollywood reporter reported on an early development idea of a John Snow sequel series starring Kid Harrington, endorsed by George R.R. Martin. And it's one of many, many, many projects in the works over at HBO. But this is the first one to include a cast member from, you know, the original series. So a lot of people are losing their marbles about this. How did it make you feel? Positive and negative.

I, okay, so here's, let me take a wider view and say this. I am every day increasingly excited for House of the Dragon. Initially, I was like, I'm done with Thrones. I need a break. I don't want it, blah, blah, blah. And now everything I've seen, everything I've heard has gotten me, like, very optimistic for this series. And then there's a bunch of other things in the work, because you and I have talked about, like, Duncan Egg and, you know, animated series. And, you know, they're spinning out the whole Thrones IP.

much of the way that George himself has like spun out different companion books and novellas and stuff like that. Okay. All of those ideas seem more fertile to me than a John Snow sequel series. That being said, I don't know what they're going to do with it. But I feel like we got John Snow's story. What this project presupposes is. Maybe we only got the first chapter of it. Malarvin, how are you feeling about the fact that your beloved ghost may return to your heart than home?

Man, I shouted out loud into my empty living room, into a Twitter box, and into text messages galore. Protect ghost more times than I can count last night. And, you know, I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel good to be back there. Joe, I think I'm I know it is quite literally my job to share and explain my feelings

about pop culture on ringer podcasts. I'm not sure I'm quite ready to do that here. I experienced such a roller coaster of emotions when I saw this when I saw this article this night. It was almost unbelievable. I think that

on the one hand, the idea of returning to John or any of our other beloved pals eventually is like one of the least surprising developments in IP machine history, right? Like it was going to happen at some point. Correct. I think that what surprised me

is the timing in a couple different respects. We're only two months from House of the Dragon. And I am surprised that this is out there before that, before there was an opportunity for whether it's House of the Dragon or Duncan Egg or any number of other things, to bring people back to really spark and sustain that excitement again. And then you come out with the, hey, guess what?

We're returning to John. We're taking you beyond the wall. Ghost is back. Let's hang out with Chorman and Sheila. Sure. Everything you've wanted to revisit here. it is, right, once that passion is rekindled. So I'm a little surprised by the timing just because it feels like, on the one hand, maybe there's a lot of what you just described. People feeling like

the itch, the pull, you know, ready to go to Westeros again. But it's just still so close to the end of season eight that I was just a little bit stunned by it. So I don't know. I think that to yes and that, I mean, it's not my job to tell actors what they should or shouldn't do. But Kit Harrington gave so many interviews about how devastating and stressful and world-breaking the final few seasons of Game of Thrones were for him. So just from a like, I care about Kit Harrington's well-being point of view, I'm like, you want to come back so soon, Kit? Like, you don't want to take, I mean, this will be in development for a little while, so it'll be a little while and it may never happen at all. But that's the other timing question that I have. But I'm like, I would not be surprised

that these actors who are like, I'm done, I'm done, I want to move on from Game of Thrones, I'm done several years down the line, would say, you know what, it was nice being on the biggest show in the world, and I like some money, and maybe there's more of this character that I want to explore, like all of those things.

But this is way soon than I thought, also because the last couple of years sort of feel like they didn't happen at all, so it really feels like no time has passed since the end of Game of Thrones and a long time has passed, so that's the other thing. And then the other thing, like,

I have heard a rumor that George R. Martin is all in on this sequel series. So on the one hand, that's good news and that, like, if he's involved, there will be, like, some guiding hand of George. Because that was a real concern I had when I first heard it, like, that they didn't have any book to go on, let alone, you know, like the way that the Game of Thrones original series progressed, right? There were, like, the seasons that were closely following the books. And then the seasons where we didn't have the book roadmap and Weiss and Beniof made their own

decision. Some of them we like. Some of them we don't. I was worried that we would get a Georgeless, you know, John Snow's story. I've heard that George is like sort of all in on this. But then that makes me worried, and I've never been this person before, but it makes me worried that we're just never going to get the end of the books, right? That like George is way too busy to finish the books. And I've always been like, be patient. It'll get to them person. But this, is like, I don't know, I have questions. What do you think? Yeah, I agree with all of that.

I think in terms of the timing point for the actors and just the characters, too, like, when I said earlier, this seemed like something that would definitely happen eventually. I guess I anticipated it being more of like an OB-1 comp. Now, of course, we don't have the bookends that were, you know, the two slices of bread and we're filling out the middle of the sandwich equivalent, but that it would be years down the road and we would check back in. So if it's much sooner than that, that's a surprise to me. I think also on the one hand, there could be a real true king beyond the wall style approach to this.

That would be fun and thrilling and frankly rippening. It's something I would love to explore with one of the characters in John. And of course, I extend that to ghost, who is sincerely, non-hyperbolically, one of the most important characters to me in the history of my life. Right. So that would be exciting eventually. it's impossible, I think, to imagine how that show that quickly could happen without then needing to, and we'd want it to. Even if we feared it, we would long for it, bring back all the other characters. Like, can a John story no matter how far into the north he is exist without us knowing what Sanzas up to? How Aria's adventures are going. Whether Brand has said, I'm going to go now, 5,000 more times, etc. Right? You need to know all of that as soon as you're back. You need to know. And so then, like, that makes me think of the George point. too, because then I do wonder, like, how many, maybe on the one hand there's an opportunity for some of what he intends to do in wins in spring to make it back into these TV arcs.

But yeah, I don't know. I'm like, on the George front, I have long thought that we would get wins. Spring seems very unlikely to me, as painful as that is to say. I am like in a place of just really wanting to love and support George. I feel so sad for him that he didn't get to finish his story on his own turn. even though it's like the biggest and most popular thing in the world. And so if this brings him joy, great. If we could get more insight into how he ultimately saw these character arcs playing out,

awesome. I want nothing more in the world than to eventually get that on the printed page. I really hope we get it. I just will never let the dream die. The dream of spring. Hope, hope, hope, hope, dream of spring eternal. Yeah, I mean, like, and that's the other thing is like, ghost and torment and John,

you know, your mileage may vary. Mallory, of course, is, like, thrilled to be back in the snowy embrace of ghosts. But, like, if you were to pitch me a spinoff, a sequel series, Sonson, Winterfell, pirate aria, like, there's a lot of stories that I have a lot of... But Joe, don't you just think this is the on-ramp

to all of that, too? Probably. And even if it doesn't... What's West of Westeros? It's sequels. That's what's west of Westero. And what's probably true is that even if Sophie Turner is like, no, thank you. I'm married to Joe Jonas and I'm doing the staircase or whatever else I want to do. Like I don't want, I'm raising two kids.

I don't want to move back to Belfast or whatever it is. What is still true is that every time we see like a hint of red hair on a passing stranger, someone's going to be like, is that, is that Queen Sonsa? Is she here? I mean, and then it's going to like, it's going to break open all of our DeNaris feelings. I mean, I don't know. It's a whole can of worms I'm not sure I'm ready for. But what I do know is this.

Even when it happens, I'll be so thrilled to talk about it with you. Same, pal. What a joy. I'm so excited for House of the Dragon and to talk to you about it every week. I can't believe it's two months away. That gives me like heart palpitations. I'm so excited. I'm also incredibly, incredibly hyped and eager to dive back in.

It's time to start returning to the cannon and brush it up. I'm excited. I know. I texted you last time. I'm like, I got that itch. I got that it. Initially, when you proposed doing a full Thrones rewatch, I was like, do we need to? This is a prequel series. We don't need to rewatch the whole thing. And last night I was like, I think I'm going to do it. We just need to immerse, you know? Yeah. It's just time to tuck in to a bowl of brown.

Get into one of the many traumatic baths that have happened in Game of Thrones. Oh, God. Oh, boy. Someone tweeted at me last night. They're like, oh, we're going to find out that Jamie and Circe survived the collapse of the sept, aren't we? And I was like, I mean, anything's possible in sequel land. You never know. You could take a lightsaber to the gut and be absolutely fine. Recovering from the, I guess we should have said Game of Throat spoiler at the top here.

Recovering from the cascading bricks, unlikely. A castorly rock Lannister youth prequel. I would love that. Wouldn't be surprised. Sign me up. Can't wait to see Tyrion construct his sex sheet. That's kind of what the castorly rock. That's kind of what the like scrapped Thrones prequel was supposed to be,

was supposed to have some castorly rock origins. Way back in the day. Some land minister sort of stuff. So anyway. Thrones. Cam of Thrones. Oh, boy. Oh, my gosh.

Boy. Protect ghosts now and always can't wait. Okay. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liner. in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner, or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat

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Other SQL IP? Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. We are here today to talk about part five, directed by Deborah Chow. this was a 42-43-minute episode, including all the pre-imposed. Written by Joby Harold and Andrew Stanton. You all may know Andrew Stanton as a Pixar cinematic

luminary behind the classics, such as Wally and Finding Nemo. Stanton is also a co-writer on the impending finale. Joe, what do you make of the Stanton of it all here? I'm thrilled. You and I, when we talked about turning red, you and I both picked Andrew Stanton as sort of like our secret weapon of Pixar. And also on this week's trial by content, we debated the best Pixar movie. And I also talked to Link about Andrew Stanton. And currently my pick, Finding Nemo, his movie is winning the poll.

So thank you all. Not too late to continue to vote for me. Always campaigning. I love and respect it. He's, uh, when we talked to. about him on the Turning Red podcast, we talked about how he's this emotional core of Pixar that reportedly he went into the original Toy Story script and sort of added a lot of the emotionality and finding Nemo, which is the first movie that he wrote and directed for Pixar

is like the start of the hyper-emotional Pixar era. And a lot of the places where you find your just heart being pulled out of your chest in the Pixar canon is Andrew Stanton. So we have no idea, and odds are no one is ever going to tell us, who wrote what in terms of this? We know that Joby Herald did sort of like a top rewrite of the series. And so when in earlier episodes we got like Hossein Amini and other people credited, those were like for previous scripts. And Joby came in and sort of rewrote them. I don't know if that's the case with Andrew here on these final two episodes. But when I was like sort of hunting and pecking for Stantonish quality,

I think the Anakin Obi-1 flashback and the way that it is threaded through the episode and the way that the beats of that fight and the exchanges resonates throughout the plot of the episode in such a smart, emotionally intelligent way versus some of the disconnect we felt with like, let's say, Book of Boba-Fet, I don't know if it's Sandra Stanton, but it feels Stanton-y-to-me. To me. Stanton fingerprints on it in a great way. Yeah. How about you? No, I had the same thought. That was where I, and again, I have absolutely no idea. Who can say?

No clue. But that was where, that was where you felt that signature, emotional intelligence and desire to examine the heart of the motivations that are, wow, I just, the Baltimore accent just came out hard there. The motivations on. The hurt. They're to the motivations that are driving the characters. And I thought that those were the most successful elements of the episodes and the part that I enjoyed the most. Which brings us to our quick opening snapshot. We're going to go beat by beat as always.

So we'll talk about all of this more at length as we go. But as an opening snapshot, Joe, overall impressions. How are you feeling about episode five? So when I first watched it at midnight on Tuesday, I was pretty mixed. And then going back in and rewatching and studying and listening. listening to the Midnight Boys and listening to a bunch of other, you know, people do their breakdowns. I think what I feel is that there are just dizzying highs of this episode, high, high, highs. And then some aspects that still confuse me.

Yeah. Logically. So still mixed, but I think I'm higher on the eyes than I was when I first watched it. How about you? Yeah, similar. Better, I liked it better than episode four, but not. not as much as I enjoyed episodes one through three. You know, I think through three episodes, this show was like feeling like it had the chance

to be an all-timer for me. And I'm still, you know, really enjoying it. And there was a lot to like in the last two episodes, but they, they've been much more, much more mixed for me. Mixed is the word I would use as well. I mean, I have a very, very similar read. I had jotted down in my notes, very high, high, some confounding lows. You know, I think we have a similar feel on it.

And, you know, to tease some of that, which we'll flesh out as we go, I think that the, from like a plot structure perspective, I think that the twists, you know, quote, unquote, twists are falling a little bit flat for me and that I'm wondering how many of them needed to be twists and how much meatier it would have been in certain respects for certain arcs if they hadn't been. I think that overall, like, certain character arcs are working much better for me than others. I really just, like, want more time with the characters because learning more about them and exploring the dynamics is the highlight of the show for me, whether that's something that they do individually in isolation, you know, in a cave or a back to tank or staring out on a bridge of a destroyer or whatever the case may be, or in tandem with each other as they build their bonds or parse what went wrong. So like the flashback in this episode was a fucking thrill for me. Like more of that, more of that, more time, more lookbacks, more immersion in these

thematic parallels and links. I think that our, we hope you didn't make a drinking game out of word X word. Today will be parallels, right? We're going to talk a lot about parallels. And I loved the parallels in this episode. On the action front, the larger battle sequence on Jabim was my first. I know this has been like a big talking point, not just with Obi-Won, but across the Disney Plus shows. This has not really been a thing that's bothered me.

But this was my first real, like, I have a TV budget question and some of the like scale of it just felt a little off. Then the flip side, again, there's a lot of swings here. I thought that the smaller, more focused and intimate action moments were like riveting. And the Vader-Riva duel was like an instantly iconic Star Wars sequence that I adored. I think there's just really epic Vader god mode action in this episode between that and the Transport Hall. And you pair that with his failure to stop Obi-1 and then mix that in with the thematic callbacks that prime us for that.

All of that landed so well. So hi-hyes, some notes and some questions that I'm excited to discuss. My feeling is that going through the episode beat by beat will really help me appreciate the things I loved about. it and also interrogate some of the things that we didn't think worked as well and ask why and see where that sets us up for the finale because that's the other thing is like I think that in a vacuum the episodes may be more successful than when you think about it in the context of the season which is you know for a penultimate episode like potentially worrying like I left the episode

more concerned heading into the for the finale than I had been to this point a lot of that It's just that I'm very worried about the reintroduction of the tattooing of it all. Like, as I've said many times, I have a lot of how does this adhere to canon piece in general, but that feels like really, really perilous and risky. So I'm hoping for better. But we're going to do a section on like sort of looking forward. But I think that I do want to circle back. Well, I want to say two things on the back of what you just said.

Number one, I've been looking forward all week to talking to you about this because I really do feel like this is my like Star Wars therapy talking to you about Obi-1 every week helps me enjoy the things that I enjoy even more, and it helps to blur the things that are sort of bothering me, and I'm able to focus on the things that I enjoy better. So I said this last week, I mean it again. Like, I always love talking to you about this stuff. But also, to your twist point, I had a whole conversation with myself this morning about twists and Star Wars,

and I was like, it's so weird to me that they've done this twice between Boba Fed and this show in terms of hiding a main character's motivation, quote, poorly, hiding it poorly for the sake of surprising us sometimes later. And I was like, so this is the conversation I have with myself. I was like, Star Wars doesn't really have twists. And then the other thoughts were like, Joanna, the biggest twist of all time is Luke, I am your father. So Star Wars has had twists. And then I was like, well, but that never, we never didn't understand what Vader was about

before that revelation or what Luke was about before that revelation. It's not like, I just think this weird holding back of information for the sake of shock and surprise, allegedly, is just not working in this Star Wars world and these Star Wars shows. I feel like shows have been, to go back to Thrones, I think ever since there's been like a red wedding problem in TV since season three of Thrones, in that every, Everyone else is chasing that high of a shocking twist, an astonishing moment. Even Thrones itself sort of got tangled up in that a bit. And so when I see someone chasing shock and sacrificing story in pursuit of shock,

that's when I'm like a little, you didn't need to be like this. Riva's story is very compelling. That idea is very compelling. The execution of it, and again, you know, as the Min I boys have said, as we have said, this is not on the actress or self, but the execution of it is not hanging together that well. That being said, lightsaber fights,

Alzheimer, incredible shit. So, I agree. I agree. Next time you have one of those back and forth with yourself, you should record it. Okay.

You know? Everyone wants to hear me talking, like, like, Smeagle and Golm like with myself. Do it into the reflective surface. Find a pool of water. Okay. That would be great.

Honestly. People would love that. I don't know. I feel like Joby could use that for social. Okay. We have so much to talk about. I'm just sorry. I'm just thinking about myself, like, hunched over my kitchen sink.

Can I get some Gallum voice from you? Give me a little, give me a little. I mean, now we need it. A lot of taste. We're not too far away from Lord of the Rings season either. So it's time to get in the zone. I'm actually literally talking about Tolkien later in this conversation. So I'll maybe give it to you then.

We're going to talk about it. Wow, you're keeping me waiting, much like the creators of Obi-Wan for something that I know I'm going to get. We'll see if it lands. What a tease. All right, Joe. It's time.

It's time to dive into this episode and into the past. Sometimes, listen, I'm going to, this is going to be something that makes Steve just horrified. Sometimes we open a lot of it. these pods open. We're 30 minutes in. Open these pods and say, we're going to try to go quickly today. I don't think it's going to happen. We have a lot to cover. I'm pretty high to go beat by beat. Sorry, Steve. We won't do our best, but we hear, we hear for you. Obi-1 deep divers.

And Ben's coming too. So, you know, little, little Obi-1 succession. Yeah. Crossover there. That's thrilling and troubling all at once. Do I think Matthew McFadden deserves to be in a, um, Star War. Yeah. Who do you think he should be? Oh, he's a Sith? 100%. Right?

Or, oh, no, no, no, no. He's some sort of imperial bureaucrat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he can make a cameo at any point as, like, an imperial officer who comes to tell Darth Vader something on the bridge of the Devastator.

He could at any point. That would be great. But I would like to see him as a climber, aspirational. Yeah, a striver, a sort of, like. like, Huxi sort of thing. I think he could be in a Star Wars film, though. Like, there's certain actress where you're like, I'd like them to have like a little cameo.

That would be cute. Yeah. But I think he could just really do it. Anyway, we're here to talk about. He should be somebody who's Thrawn at some point just annihilates. Right. Via tactics and stratagems. Mm-hmm.

Okay. We've solved it. I'm excited to see that in the future. Really excited to see him. It's not the summer of no expectations here on House of Ar. I'm really excited to hear the casting announcement for Skeleton crew, the upcoming definitely a Thron show that they're doing with Jude Law. So great.

I love it. Okay. Joe? Yes. It's time. 40-ish minutes into the pod, it's time to start talking about the episodes. This is my favorite time of the week. Speaking about 40-ish.

That's about how old Hayden Christensen is. I'm going to come in with a hot controversial take. Let's do it. I have no notes. on how he and Grisholin looks in this flashback. Do I hear everyone's complaints? Yes. Has Jomey made me laugh like three separate times talking about this?

Yes. However, I far prefer a slightly rough looking 20-something-year-old anachin versus a completely plasticized anachin. So. And if you look at it. at it, like a lot of people are like they didn't bother deage him at all. That's not true at all. I feel like if you say that, it means you have not seen Hayden Christensen

recently, who's still extremely handsome, but is 41. They did a lot of de-aging on him. They just left his eyes and his mouth more natural and they usually leave. And the mouth is so key in the D-age. And I think, you know, I'm not, I'm not mad

about it because I felt like I felt like Hayden finally got to play Anakin in a way that, I mean, at least for me who doesn't connect to him in the prequels, I felt emotionally connected to him. So, yeah. No, I agree.

I think that this avoided, I take the trade off here of avoiding it feeling too distractingly uncanny valley. What was your just initial gut response when the episode opens and you see that glimpse of Korson and then you pan back and you see the little Badawan brain? in the rat tail and you know that it's happening. We're getting young Anakin. We're getting Hayden, Sands, you know, a Vader helmet or burn charred skin prosthetic or desert distance mirage.

I was, I gasped with a joy. I was thrilled. And it's like that wistful score pairing with that first glimpse. And it's just this encapsulation of this is what we've wanted. I was over the moon. Like, because, you know, as we've been saying, like, why do you cast Hayden if you're not going to give us a flashback. I could have, honestly, and I know that maybe coming off a Book of Boba Fett, they didn't want to do this because we had our issues. I mean, they'd already

made their decisions by the time we saw Book of Boba Fett. But like the flashbacks every week on Book of Boba Fett were not thrilling to us. But if this is truly an Obi-Wan-Vader show, which it wound up being at its best, it is an Obi-Wan-Vader show, I think giving us flashbacks every week I would have had an appetite for it and making those flashbacks and the lessons from the mirror the actions of the present day you know,

Jedi Sith that were watching. I thought it was incredible, electric, thrilled. And this is for me, an attack of the clones, uh, hater, you know, but I was delighted.

But that's part of what I love about it so much, actually, because it's a, it's a, of a piece, I think, with, why I love the Clone Wars so much. You know, only one of the reasons, of course, like so much of what I love about the Clone Wars is Asoka and all of the new elements,

but a huge, huge, huge part of why that's one of my favorite Star Wars installments is because it improves upon the prequels and helps really flesh out and enhance our understanding not only of their individual arcs and their respective journeys, but their shared arc and these key moments that they have together. So just getting the flashback at all, and we've been waiting when we got that back to tank. We're like, all right, is it here? I love that you titled the little header at our outline taking the back to out of flashback to, you know, it's a little bit surprising how it happened, but it worked so well. And I'm with you. I mean, this is such a key interaction and a new piece

of canon, not just a retread. I would have loved, I hope we get more of this still, and I would have loved it the entire way. I think that would have been a really cool way to structure the whole series and think of how many opportunities it would have given us and our pal Ryan area over at Screen Crush to play the George Lucas sound bite about him talking about how Star Wars rhymes. It rhymes. That's one of the best recurring bits. I love it. Joe, let's chat for a minute about the setting, not just the chorus on top of it all, but the exact training room that they are standing in. And of course, what Anakin is gazing out to in the distance. Take us through it. Yeah, yeah. So the pavilion place where they're training is exactly where we saw Riva and the Younglings at the start of the series.

So that's a really interesting way to connect those characters beyond the other connections that we're going to get. Like, you know, their origins are the same. A harrowing link. Yeah. And then we start with Anakin staring out at the skyline, but he's looking at a particular building in that. Building these looking at is the high-rise where Padme likes to lounge around and like silken, silks and pearls. And it's a mirror of a Revenge of the Sith moment where he's looking out where she is and she's looking out at the Jedi Temple where he is. And it's just before he makes a devastating choice, a fall choice in Sith. And so, but I like this idea that, you know, he's constantly thinking and pining and focusing on her, this attachment.

A way to put Natalie Portman in here without putting Natalie Portman in here, you know? Yes. I love the reminder of the longing in terms of the Anakin Padmae relationship. We also get so many moments across this episode where Vader is on the bridge of the Devastator looking out into the distance. And, you know, we've talked about this before, but it's not just. a cool thing to see across the Anakin arc, but it's this connection between Anakin and Luke and Leah, this propensity to always look out to the horizon and think about the thing that they don't have and how in some ways that can be this inspiring pull and propulsive force to lead you to

the next phase of your journey and your hero's arc and how in some ways it can be the thing that you harp on at the expense of all of the other things that are actually around you. So I like that too. So just would be remiss not to mention, though, that we should never forget what a fucking creep Anakin Skywalker is. Just loves to stand there and stare at the place. It's sleeping. Fucking weird. Yeah, it's not quite like Edward Cullen level.

Like, he's not in the room. But, yeah, it's not great. That reminds me, though, the Sith point that you made. Should we talk about the timeline for a second year? Yeah. So this is either. right before or potentially even during the events of attack of the clones. It definitely predates the Clone Wars.

We're fully on Joanna Robinson wigwatch here because the hair is the most helpful initial clue of where we are in the story for both of them. Yeah. Not just the Pad of One braid, but the Obi-Wi-Wan. It's not his best hair. It's not. No, we got a lot of tweets for people. We always love, we love to hear from you about our guy, Obi-Wan.

Canobi, of course. But, you know, we have to stay for the record. Not our favorite Obi-look. It's not. I'm much more partial to this weathered. I've been living in a cave on Tatooine for years. Energy. And in talk of the clones, it's like Obi-1 had just discovered L.A. looks.

They're like gel. And he bought, like, an enormous pot of it. And then he was like, ooh, I got to make my way through this giant tub of L.A. looks that I bought. And so he's just, like, slicking back his hair constantly in a way that doesn't work. Revenge of the Sith, he's going a little bit more natural. It's wartime. He doesn't have time to like, you know, quaffer.

So, yeah. You can't be a general and style your hair that much, you know? Oh, yeah. What's your sense? Is it pre or during? What do you think? I think it's during. I think this is where I've landed after mulling this quite a bit, but it's got to be

at the very beginning, kind of before they part. Like, so our pal Ben Lindberg, who will be with us shortly, we were going back and forth on this a bit when Ben was working on his column, and then after, after Arjuna sent some very clear, no, this is definitely when this is set timeline slacks. And I was like, I need more coffee. You're obviously right. So Ben sent me a link to a Ryan Britt inverse article

that makes the point that this scene happening right on the brink of the, he's jealous, he's holding me back, Anakin outburst to, Padme feels like the right sequencing and kind of like helps all of that coalesce a little bit more. Not that that didn't fit already with the overall Anakin Obi-Won tension and the limitations that Anakin's jealousy consistently proved to be for him, right? I think that the, so obviously he's got the Padawan braid. This is before his nighting definitively. He hasn't grown out his hair.

All of that is very clear. He has the human hand, right? So this is pre-Ducu-Dul at the end of attack of the clones and the pre-severing of the lightsaber at the droid factory. So it's definitely before the end of attack of the clones. But I like the idea of it being right at the beginning of it. It doesn't feel like it could predate it by that much, right? And that's like peak.

I think that's the time that Anakin probably spent the most time staring at where Padme is sleeping, honestly. There's some incredibly incredibly, incredibly. creepy exchanges. I think the other thing to, I was listening to our friends over the Empire podcast, break down this episode. And they had some really cool insights into whose flashback they thought it was. I think it's both. This is like similar to our back to conversation.

And like could maybe lead us down the promos path to like a forced dyad conversation. But I think that the way. way that they shoot this, like when you first come out of the first section of flashback, you're on Vader, right? But each time we go in and out of the flashback going forward, you're on one and then you're out on the other, you know, and they're both sort of doing that pensive staring off in the distance I'm about to have a flashback face or I just had a flashback face and also saying things like, it's because they're both trying to work out strategy-wise

what the other will do. And so they're thinking, they're both thinking. about this one trading session or maybe a few and what lessons they might glean from it. So I really think it's a shared flashback. I agree. The cuts felt very deliberate in terms of whose face we're going from or toward and the way that we move between them. And also just the way that the parallels emerge across the episode with the lessons that are learned or not learned for both of them and what a rich text that is because there are things that Vader is taking from that exchange to and applying. But as is so often the case, and this is one of the just delicious aspects of

their relationship and their arc, Obi-1 has seen the ultimate endgame and upshot in a way that Anakin just simply hasn't. And, but I also think Obi-1 gets some things wrong. I'm excited to go beat by beat. He gets more right than Anakin, but certainly gets some things wrong too.

That's, they're flawed. They're so caught up in this, in this shared history. I think that Vader's inability to look beyond, the resentment is the true ultimate distinction. So the thing that we get, because we get these different, the lines and the lessons kind of build,

across the returns. You know, we return a handful of times to the flashback across the episode. And we'll go through all of those as we, as we break down the episode, the thing we get in this initial snapshot, because there's like a key, a key bit of sage wisdom in each little glimpse.

So we also get, like, before that here, I think we kind of get this fun meta note. Ah, there you are. I was beginning to think you weren't coming, Master. Just this wink to the audience as we waited patiently. for this exchange. I love that. And then we get this reminder that Anakin, in terms of just skill and ability, plenty capable of besting Obi-One and has. There's the great, you know,

exchange in Sith about the number of times he saved him. In terms of skill, pure skill, as advanced as Obi-1 is, Anakin actually is superior. And that's part of why it's so compelling to see him thwarted by Obi-1 so many times, because it is not just the mastery of the light-saber or the blade, right, that leads him. So when Obi-1 says, like, good, then maybe I stand more of a chance this time. And we know that Anakin had the upper hand in their last exchange. Like, that matters not only inside of this episode, but across their shared canon. Because it's not just that dueling prowess.

It's that knowledge and that wisdom. The way that Obi-1 is able, ultimately, to look really, you've made this point so many times across not only our preview pot, but our episode breakdowns, to learn about him as self and his opponent and then actually work consciously, even if he's not perfect, to try to apply those learnings. Yeah. And that's the differentiator. That idea that the force being, I love listening to the Midnight Boys, not just because they're like delightful, but they're also just brilliant, right? And so that can sometimes, I think, get lost in the laughter of the Midnight Boys, but sometimes they'll come through or often they'll come through with just like a piercing

insight. So I want to shout out this thing that Charles said that I was like in my car listening to it and I wanted to like slam the brakes on my car and scream yes. When Charles was talking about how Anakin is a wartime Jedi versus, you know, Obi-Wan who got most of his, got his training in peacetime. I thought that was such an interesting insight. This line comes later in the exchange and I actually want to talk about it even later also. But like when Anakin says Mercy doesn't defeat the enemy master. I just, he's thinking about the enemy at all time. They're not at war yet, but he's thinking about the enemy at all time in a way that I don't

think Obi-1 was ever forced to in his training, in his bringing up. And, you know, that's part of, like, you could argue that a wartime PTSD or whatever is all part of Anikins fall. It's a huge part of who his character is. It's why the Clone Wars is such an interesting piece of story. as you say. And so I do think that the luxury of a Jedi in peacetime is to focus as much on the martial side of what you do.

The force should be used to defend not attack. But how do you do that? How do you get to be that kind of wise, sage, zen master if you're a wartime Jedi? It's a great point, and it's interesting too, because so many of the points of contrast that we'll observe are between Obi-1 and Vader or one of them and Riva,

but we can always also look elsewhere in the canon. And so that makes, hearing you and Charles talk about that, like makes me think of Luke, because that was also true for him. All of Luke's training and the lessons from Yoda about protection and working to help and heal, that's also in the throes of wartime, right? The full thrust of the rebellion.

Luke is receiving his training on Dagaba, and he's gotten some from old Ben. I wonder if they, I wonder if they mean old Ben. Canoby? He gets on some of his training before he's hopped into the cockpit of an X-wing. But Dagaba, Empire,

a lot of what we thought we would get on the parallel front in this episode, we ended up getting much more of the Hoth-centric. There's an empire attack on a rebel base parallel. It could have so easily gone wrong for Luke to the point where when he is called,

by knowing that Han and Leah and his friends are in peril, Yoda and Obi-Wan tell him not to go because they so fear from what happened with Anakin how that pull to protect and save the very thing that they would champion could lead you astray. It's just, boy. I think, I mean, and there's so many distinctions

between Luke and Anakin, obviously, but I think a key distinction between, between one wartime Jedi and another is Luke didn't have to grapple with the Jedi Council, the like Jedi bureaucracy, the way that... The better for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The Jedi should never have mixed and mingled in politics.

It's just true. All right. The Jedi order. Tough stuff. Boy, we always have some notes. So we cut from this, we cut from this first flashback to, from the clash of the blades to Vader breathing. He's looking out, just as Anakin was from the training room.

And then the captain brings Riva aboard. And she says to him, it is my great honor to be invited aboard Lord Vader. And I wanted to talk about this just for a quick second, because one, I will try not to repeat myself too many times in this episode, but one of the things that I'm really hung up on regarding Riva's arc is I have no issue at all with her wanting to kill Anakin. That tracks fully based on her history, right?

Which was devastating to learn about in full here. Why go be an inquisitor and hurt all of those people too? So part of the, there are a lot of different ways that you could attempt to rationalize that. And we'll talk about that more as we go. But one of them is simply that she had to bite her time and get as close as she could. And I'm really, I'm hung up on that for a lot of reasons. but one of them is just that there's so much canon that places Vader right next to the Inquisitors, you know, training them, tormenting them, horrifically, like, cutting off pieces of their body

to ensure that they're totally enthrall to the nature of his teachings and the empire's approach. We do get moments in this show where we can see the way that, like, the Fifth Brother really pines for that proximity and the jealousy that sprouts when other people get it and one of them doesn't, right? So, like, I think we have to believe that something like this is, exceedingly rare and that she would have to really wait to work toward a moment like that, but even so, I struggle with that part of it. I have a lot of notes about the Reeva arc and how it played out here. We'll get most of that later, but I just wanted to mention it with that line because, like,

maybe they're just very rarely near each other. Can we talk about her backstory here? Like, is that is slightly out of order? But I think that... You want to do it all here? Should we dive right in? I think we should. Like, I think that it will not surprise you to know that I rewatched Empire in anticipation of this, the way that I watched a new hope last week, just to, like, sort of see what parallels I might see.

And, of course, you know, I was focusing a lot on the Yoda sections because that's sort of what you and I guessed we might get. But, like, I'm not telling Star Wars fans anything new because most people have all of Yoda's words of wisdom about the force tattooed on their body somewhere. But like, that idea of anger, fear, aggression, the dark side of the force are they? Easily they flow quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path forever, will it dominate your destiny? Consume you at will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. This is what he says to Luke about the dark side. It's seductive qualities.

This idea that Riva, in her pursuit of vengeance, which was righteous, one might say, and her desire to destroy one of the most harmful, forces in the galaxy and Darth Vader, she opened herself up to the dark side in her anger, and it led her down this path. I can't really narratively justify it, but if we're talking about a dark side corruption of Riva, it led her down the path where she could justify all these things that she's doing.

She is able in her mind to justify torturing Leah, watching a kid get his neck snapped, whatever it is, you know, that Van was rightfully going on at, length during the Midnight Boys podcast, she's able to justify that because there is like the ends justify the means and also my vengeance is so, my hatred is all consuming. When Obi-1 says later, and I think the best line of this entire Obi-1 series, all he will see is me, right? Isn't that what he says?

Because all he'll see is me? That's all Riva's seeing is Vader. And it has allowed her because she has opened herself up to the dark side. is allowed her to justify all the things that she is doing. Narratively, does that hang for me? I don't know, but in terms of like, dark side corruption, it kind of does. How do you feel about it?

I'll give, I guess, an initial attempt at a summation here, and then I guess we can talk about it some more as we go through the chronology. I think that Riva is an incredibly compelling character. I think that the performance is spectacular. I'm struggling with the, with reconciling the different aspects of her arc. I think that a lot of it is what we talked about earlier.

I just wish that instead of going for the... Because it's kind of like a dual twist here, right? Where we get the initial confirmation that she was the youngling in the Order 66 flashback. And there's a lot in that exchange between Riva and Obi-1 that is just absolutely heart-wrenching and agonizing and devastating. And of course you are empathizing for her

and you want to root for her in those moments. But when you swing later to Obi-Wan imploring her to not let Anna can do it again, right? There are families, there are children. She was just charging in against those very families and children saying, no mercy, seal them in, wipe them out. So I think that the point you're making is a really strong one. And I don't argue with that logic at all.

I think the thing I'm feeling is that the show didn't spend the necessary time with the character to allow us to appreciate that. I agree. And so I think it's just if we had known initially that, and this isn't, to be clear, this isn't like a, oh, the internet solved it kind of complaint. Like that doesn't bother me. Like that's actually part of the fun of talking about these shows on a weekly basis and theorizing and speculating. Right. So I'm not like let down when a lot of podcasters or tweeters or. or YouTubers or whatever the case, maybe figure it out.

That's fine. It's more just that so much of what has really worked with this show, as we've discussed a lot, this season, is these really, like, introspective moments where we get to see the characters reflect on the choices that they've made. And so we need, for this arc to fully land in the finale, I feel that we need to see Riva reflect on that dissonance.

Because pursuing Anakin, even aligning with Obi-1 at the end, to pursue Anakin is not in and of itself redemptive. In part just because the Sith kill each other all the time, right? But much more germainly

because the thing, the key crucial ingredient and Star Wars loves a redemption arc, the crucial ingredient is remorse, right? That reflection and contrition. Now we begin to work toward that when Obi-1 appeals to her by saying, don't let him do this again, right? Right.

I agree with what you're saying. You're absolutely right about how it's been executed, how the timing or everything. But also this is episode five of a six-episode season. And so if they're plotting out when the face turn comes, and I used it correctly this week, when the face turn comes, it's in the finale, right?

I'm totally willing to be patient for it. And so if she's going after Luke, who we know we'll be fine. If she's going after Luke because he would be good bait for Vader or whatever her justification is, if that's the moment, she decides,

this is a bridge too far. I've become the thing I sought to destroy, all that sort of stuff. I was just going to mention that same line. Yes. That's exactly what it hinges on,

right? Because you already mentioned, like, you know, watching in Mapuzo as the kid gets his neck snapped. I mean, she killed Wade, Joe.

Our guy, Wade. The most important character that has ever existed in all the Star Wars. No, but the torturing of the rebellion. Torturing Leah was a big one, obviously, but also just like

the exchange they had about how, in essence, well, I always do this for the empire. You think about how many other moments like that there might have been with other children in peril. So the shades and connections, the shades of the connections to Obi-1 telling Anakin,

you've become the very thing you swore to destroy. If Riva has her moment of confronting that in the finale and we move through the phases of remorse and contrition, then it can still be a satisfying arc. I just think the way it's been parceled out to this point is in, and again, it's like the measuring stick is inside of the episode and inside of the series, right? Where we're getting that deep introspection and reflection from Obi-1 and from Vader. So I can't decide if I, and I, you know, I love TV shows. I'm not, I'm very rarely of this should have been a movie person. very rarely, often the opposite.

But I really feel, and again, I'll withhold final judgment, but I really feel like the show feels like it's either too short or too long. I can't decide which. But like, we either need, I think, eight to ten episodes where we could have gotten an entire Riva episode. Like, what was that gutter? Let's go there together and see. I would have loved that.

I mean, like, that's what I feel like we're missing. In theory, I would have loved that. I'm sure that there were plenty of people been like, oh, my God, I'm getting a whole fucking Riva episode, people for whom Riva is not working at all. But I think, you know, given that you and I are big fans of like a lost flashback or something like that, I think seeing Reva, when she says, and Moses Ingram delivered it so well, when she says, you have no idea what I've done alone, great delivery. I also want to see it. I also want to see it. I agree. And I thought another just spectacular and agonizing line read. And we're kind of weaving in and out of the, the. two conversations that Riva and Obi-1 have. There's the initial exchange and then the subsequent exchange.

When she is recounting Order 66 and says, I tried to help them, but I couldn't. I was too weak. When he left, I played dead, hid with the bodies, felt them go cold. They were the only family I knew and he slaughtered them. I mean, horrific and agonizing. Her voice is shaking as she's saying this. This is just like truly horrific and really terribly sad. And Obi-1 is closing his eyes and in horror and despair.

Yeah. The I was too weak line there felt so key because it's so of a peace with Anakin's fall. I think it was Ryan again, Ryan area on screen. Some brilliant Star Wars YouTuber made this connection and that I was just like, fuck yeah, right? That Anakin felt too weak to save his mom, protect me. And that fear of I can't protect the things I love is what leads to the dark side. Exactly. And I think they're like asking us to make that connection with the phrasing here because she says he slaughtered them. And of course, that's like mirror phrasing to the way Anakin recounts what happens to Padme when he's when he's talking about what happened with the Tuskins. And like I think it's important to remember that sometimes the beginning of the fall can be really pure. Like that's when it's the most tragic when you want to help and you feel even though it was not your fault at all that you failed someone in some way, whether you're not.

it's Anakin with Schmey with his mother, right? Or Riva with the other younglings here. If that fear, fear, anger, back to the dark side. You already mentioned all of it. Yeah. If that leads to the quest for a level of power and control and might with Anacon or with Riva, that is like unholy. That is not something someone should possess.

then that is a stark contrast to other characters who, and we'll talk about Tal and a bit, but we get another exchange between Tal and Obi-Wan about the lessons that you do actually have to learn from the past, right? That you can't just forget it. And so if you take that lesson of humility and simultaneously seek to not carry the burden alone, but reflect on where you do carry some culpability

and then how you can try to be better in the future, then that can lead you forward in a positive way. So I thought that was just like a really, really, really crucial moment. And those were the kinds of moments for Riva in this episode that I thought were incredibly poignant and powerful and loved and thought were really resonant. And I just, I wish we, I wish that we had more time like that with her. And that, like you said, we could have seen what that looked like when she was alone.

I agree. And what I think is so smart about this episode when it's working really well, is that it's not just as you, the parallel comment that you made earlier is so, so funny, but like the parallel between like Obi-1 and Vader and Revan and then so it's just triangulated. It's like a triangulated, you know, a signal between the three of them. And so when she says, I don't need your help, I don't need anyone is what she says to Obi-Wan.

And it's this idea of like this, we've talked so long in this season, preseason about what are the lessons that Obi-1 needs to learn to turn from Revenge of the Sith, Obi-One-Wan Kenobi to A New Hope, Obi-1 Canobe. And Old Ben, Hermit Ben in the desert, like, you know, he doesn't join society. He's still in hiding by the time a New Hope comes around. But I have to imagine that the next nine years are going to be less about self-punishment and sitting alone in the desert and not talking to anyone ever, right? this idea of I need to be alone.

You know, I can't help the rebellion. I need to be alone. Versus like, I'm here for the boy. It's a subtle difference, but it's a difference, do you know? Yeah, definitely. And I think that there was a lot of reflection in both directions. Like, you're right, in these exchanges, there were a lot of moments where Riva forces Obi-1

to confront a truth about himself as well. Like, the why would I ever trust? you because we want the same thing, do we moment was really, do you really want? Do you really want Anakin dead? And like the, again, we've talked so much this season about like the, the facial expression acting that you and McGregor is doing, but that this was really like a top tier example of it because that is the question. That is the question. And he can he can barely bring himself to ask that question of himself. Like he literally like chokes out this little sound, like a But he does, almost in reply, but he doesn't.

I mean, of all the times that someone hasn't, like, killed someone and finish them off, and in this episode alone we get an inexplicable version of that, why didn't Obi-1 kill Anakin and Mustafa? I feel like this unlocks that for me. He cannot kill Anakin. He can't do it. He doesn't do it in a new hope, and he doesn't do it in Revenge of the Sith, and he's certainly not going to do it in the finale when they have.

their inevitable finale fight, right? He cannot kill Anakin. He can only tell himself that Anakin is already dead, but he cannot be the one to kill him. I mean, he tells Yoda as much in Sith. Like, he says, I cannot do this, right? And I think that, you know, to your point about how he can't do it in a new hope either,

I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, I think that one of the real... We talk a lot about the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, right? the formative heart of what Star Wars was supposed to be and what the story George Lucas was interested in telling. The more time we spend with Obi-Wan and the more time we spend with Obi-Wan and Anakin as a pair, master and apprentice brothers,

I think one of the great tragedies of Star Wars is that while you are right and he never actually brings himself to the point of killing him to wielding that like fatal blow, he does reach the point by a new hope where he believes that there's nothing left to save, where he has let go of that last little ember and believes that Anakin is truly lost.

And that is so devastating. But that, yeah, and that's exactly what I mean, is that he can only tell himself that Anakin is dead, but he cannot strike the killing blow on this body, whether or not he considers it Anakin or Vader, he cannot do it. Yeah. And there's like, there's that, that next,

beat with Revan Obi-Wan is when she says, where were you while he was killing my friends? He was your Padawan. Why didn't you stop and why didn't you save us? And there's like, you know, the actual like plot evolution and canon connection of like the Obi-Wan hollow that we get to see in rebels where we hear the message that he sent out and that he was not only not there to save them. He's like, don't go back to the temple.

But telling other people not to go. This is obviously like very intense and sad. There are some incredibly funny memes. on the internet about like, well, I was riding a lizard and battling grievous. But like, on the more emotional front, this, that question, that charge against him, like, it cuts to not just so much of the reason, frankly, that this series exists, that they decided to make this show, but to the heart of the character, like, that grief and that regret that have defined so much of Obi-1's love. and the blame that he really does shoulder and feel that he carries, but then also the entwined need for him and for other characters, too, to move beyond that.

And that was really present here. Oh, painful. It's painful. The last thing I want to say on the Riva flash, I'm very, very pro whatever deaging or not that they did on Annigan, but I do have a question as to why he doesn't have his scar. during Order 66 on his face. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that?

Oh, interesting. I think I was so captivated by the cuts between Riva in the present timeline and young Riva. You have the activation of the saber and this brief moment of hope. And then the way that the light bathes his face and you see his eyes widen and like the horror really says. that's in, that I don't even know if I noticed that the scar wasn't there. It's a good question. It's a good question. That's a great scar, too. I love that. Maybe blue light just makes scars not appear. Was the hood far enough over that it could have been obstructing a part of his face? No, I guess not. We also, you know, while we're on Riva, and we'll obviously get back to, I guess we'll

get back to Riva when we talk about the Vader duel later so we can hit the Grand Inquisitor there, because on the ship before they head down to Jubeem, he anoints her Grand Inquisitor, which obviously is a farce as we will come to see. But there is this like very, especially on a rewatch, harrowing parallel of like you see that hesitation when he goes full Joffrey, you know,

Neil, I said Neil! And you see that reluctance. And then we come to understand why, because when they duel at the end of this episode and then in the flashback, that parallel of having him loom above her like that really just... Was traumatic for her.

Yeah, very traumatic. I mean, what's funny, okay, so when talking about... When I'm talking about the things that Obi-1 got wrong, he's assuming that Anakin is still going to behave the way that Anakin did in that flashback. And in some senses, he's right. But in the same sense,

sense where he's like he doesn't have a patience for a siege or he doesn't have, you know, that's what he says. Is not the theme of this series, Vader likes to play with his food? Right? Because he toys with Obi-1 when he drags him through the fire and leaves him there. He's obviously like toying with Riva through all of this. And then if we want to be really generous with our reading of this, I'll say that him letting the second transporter go is him still toying with his food because there's no reason

why he wouldn't be able to snatch that out of the sky. So, you know, is that not something that Anakin has learned since, which is like... Interesting. I say, I think it's a good point. I say no. Okay. I think that the transport sequence is the embodiment not only of Obi-1's ability to understand Anakin's limitations, but how that impatience manifests.

The, all he'll see is me, idea that you already noted, the fact that his upset his myopia is consistently his undoing. Single focus, single focus is different from like patience. I feel, you know what I mean? But I think they're connected with him because the fact that his, his focus and his obsession and his myopia are so all consuming for him, lead him to act rashly. I think that the distinction between, like the, the episode three, letting him go and playing with his food point is a good one.

I guess like that immediately though leads to this real haste and this like fury when he thinks that he's eluded him even for a second. Did the tracker work? It has to work. How could you let him go? Oh, there's a tracker. Did it work? It has to work.

Right. And I think there's a subtle distinction between him believing that he is superior and thus can always find him and his tendency to act rashly. I think that impatience has always been a core part of. Anakin well before his fall. I think in many ways it's part of what makes him like such a fun and interesting character. He's not bound by the exact like tactics and approach that so many of the other Jedi are. He likes to innovate.

He can think quickly and on his feet. And that's part of like what makes him such a revelatory force user. But it's also part of what contributes to his hubris because he believes that the decision that he makes is going to be the right one, no matter how quickly he makes it. He very rarely stops to play out the string and think about the consequences. I guess then I have, I'm having trouble reconciling that characterization

with someone who would play the long game with Riva. And I think, and I think that's okay. I think that's just a failure of this plot line then, you know. I think that there are times when Anakin plays out, well, okay, so let's talk it out. There are definitely times where Anakin and or Vader pushes himself to be patient. Like understands,

this is, again, one of the through lines. He does actually hear the things that Obi-Wan is telling him. Like, the way you see what's playing on his face in the very last of the flashbacks, this simultaneous, like, recognition, as reluctant as he is to make it, that he does still have more to learn

with this real bitterness and resentment that Obi-Wan won't just praise him, won't just tell him that he's ready, right? And also like this sadness because he just wants just wants to be told like, good job, you're wonderful. You're the fucking prodigy, mid of glory and Jesus. Holy shit. Like how great you are.

Right. There are times where he's just like bored. Daddy Quigon told me I was very special. Why don't you tell me I'm special? Exactly. There are so many times though where he's just bored. And he likes to like play these games basically to entertain himself. I think when Ben was on with us a couple weeks ago, he mentioned trying to remember exactly

which pod we talked about this on. He mentioned the whole comic book arc where basically Vader is like playing out this farce to have this force chase him and pursue him. Oh yeah. I think that the, the grand...

I mean, there's, I don't think there's a way you can really say that the ultimate Grand Inquisitor is alive and this whole making Riva think she was the Grand Inquisitor thing like totally lands in a satisfying way.

I think the Grand Inquisitor stuff is pretty like actively bad. but Vader recognizing that he could use Riva to try to get closer to Obi-One. And he is ultimately, and this is part of what is so sad about their eventual confrontation, it's like a Don Draper, I don't think about you at all thing, right? Like, he's not taking her seriously as a threat. And so the impatience manifests in a potent way for his character when he is actually deeply invested in the outcome, which he is with Obi-1.

And so then he is blinded and reaches out for that first transport and doesn't stop to think about what Obi-1 might be doing and how he might be using the lessons of their past against him. He's not thinking about Riva that way at all. She's just a pawn to him. And that's like part of what's so tragic about it. Yeah, of course.

Of course she's a pawn, but it's still like a... I don't know. I still think there's a... And it is fine for Star Wars characters to have inconsistent behavior because humans have inconsistent behavior. And I still think there is some sort of inconsistency invader in terms of like, like all of us,

sometimes ration-impulsive and sometimes long-game toying just to entertain himself almost. Do you know? So I think both can go exist. Yeah, but I mean, you're absolutely right that it like stands out. The dissidents feels heightened

when it's like what are the core themes of the episode? For sure. For sure. I mean, I think what's also true, is that, I mean, again, we're skipping forward, but I think... Well, let's just talk about the Riva Vader duel while we're on them. Let's just hit that now, and then we'll go back to the jibeme of it all. I really do think when he says,

Obi-Wan was wise to use you against me, like, and that's the whole, like, I use your weapon against you. Riva is the saber in this instance, and Obi-Wan has, if you want to say used, you could say used her against Vader. But the fact that he saw that coming, again, I think, speaks to the lessons he picked up from that flashback as well. Do you know? You disagree? You think Vader has learned nothing from that exchange? I think it's significant that it's a flashback for both of them. So I think that they both have to be like learning and reflecting on the

lessons of that fight. The flashback that we come out of, so we come out of a couple actually in like close sequencing there. We have the your need for victory, Anakin. It blinds you. line, right? Which is very much connected to this, you know, not seeing what is right in front of you because he's so eager to win. Then we go to Obi-1 has been disarmed. We'll just hit the rest of the flashbacks here too. This is great. I love that we're off the road map. We're just, we're just going where our feeling, we're just searching our feelings, as the force would tell us to. Obie one doesn't have his saber, right? Which I want to return to the discovery of the crates of sabers later when we talk about the latest wall etching perusal,

because there's some interesting stuff to parse there, but we can hit that later. He whips around, he disarms Anakin with the force, claims Anakin's saber as his own. Besting him, again, not because of skill, but because he's like more clever, more resourceful, Anakin, the arrogance of just the certainty that he'd win, much like in episode three of this show. It's over. It's over. You get the actual, it's over, yes. Mustafa mentioned.

And that, to me, feels like, really emblematic of, I think, I don't disagree with you that Vader has also learned things and that he is harping on this to try to apply what he thinks he has learned. I completely agree with that. I think that it's over is the embodiment of where that falls short for him. Because when he says it's over, he's wrong. And when Obi-1 says he's over, he's right. Now, he's not right in the long arc of history. It's not over between them forever. But it was over in that moment. And I think that he has an ability to understand his own limitations

and Anikins in the way that Anikin's Hubris just does not allow, right? And so like, we get the, you're a great warrior Anakin, but your need to prove yourself as your undoing until you overcome it, a Padawan you will still be moment. A hilarious moment where Obi-1 is doing like a Yoda impression, by the way. Sure. With the sentence structure there. Big Yoda move. But I think, honestly, I think you guys, we are closer to agreeing than it might seem.

In terms of, like, I think, I definitely agree with you that, like, in terms of you're like, who learned the most out of this flashback, who got the, who has the upper hand of the end of this episode, it's Obi-1 Kenobi, right? And who will ultimately learn the most out of this? have the upper hand as he comes out of this, probably Obi-Wan Kenobi because he survives, right? But I just think that they're, I think they're both studying this moment, which is just emblematic of their long history, to try to anticipate what the other one will do. And I Vader makes some right moves and some wrong moves.

Yes. Yes. I love the, in addition to the Yoda energy, I love the smile on Obi-Wan's face there because he's like genuinely glad that he still has something to teach Anakin. It's so sad to revisit that. And Anakin is just looking so like abashed. And again, we know where that resentment ultimately leads. Like I like the Padawan line is an interesting one to parse.

And I'll, I'll eventually get back to the Reeve of Vader. Seeing that led to this long aside anyway, but it's obviously all deeply connected. As you said, it's like a, it's less of just a dyad or a, a, a two character parallel and more of a triangle here. Like the Pat-On line is such a nice nod to the New Hope, you know, but the learner moment. But like,

so I'm curious, let's just keep jumping around. We have no order anymore. I already move to this section. We're out in the deserts of Jibim. Some people who I've chatted with about the episode, and by some people, I mean my husband Adam and our podcast.

manager Arjuna, believe that it is not only possible but probable that we will not see an Obi-1-Vader confrontation in the finale, in part because of this line. I will say, I'm happy to be wrong on podcasts. This will not, this will not be, if that ends up being true, this will not be the first time I've been wrong, it won't be the last time. I consider that impossible. Completely impossible. I'm with you. With love and respect to Adam and Arjuna, I'm completely with you. I think it's going to be, I think it's interesting to try to reverse engineer I was but a learner now I am the master. Yes.

I think that is interesting. There's the whole Tattoine of it all, which we'll talk about later, that makes that figuring out how it can happen complex, admittedly. But in terms of the Paduan Lurter thing, like, that relies on it happening on Tatawin, which I don't think it necessarily needs to. Right. It depends how long the finale is. Many locations.

Yeah. But right for the finale is a, oh, boy. Like we're going to Tatumine eventually, right? Riva's headed there. But that doesn't mean that Vader is headed there necessarily. Well, I sure hope not. Because then it makes, then nothing makes any sense, right? That's like probably the one canon bridge that I like can't accept if that happens, yeah.

Here's where I want to get really in my head about this like fight that you and I feel are convinced has to happen in the finale. Yep. And it's this other line from the flashback duel that I think is, because I think the flashback dual lessons are going to be important not only for this, but also for the final conflict. Absolutely. Mercy doesn't defeat an enemy master. This is where I was going next. Which is why you're going to lose, right? So in my head, canon again,

summer of so many expectations for you and me, like we didn't make any promises to fan that we wouldn't have expectations. In my dream that I've come up for this final confrontation, they fight Obi-1 as the upper hand, but he doesn't kill Vader and he leaves. We're 100% aligned. Yeah.

And here's where I'm going to hit you with two. Are you on Thrones here? Are you going Ned Madness of Mercy? I'm not. I'm going to... That's where I was going to go. Okay. I have a thronesism and a harryism coming.

That's so funny that you have a thronesism and a Harryism. I have a Tolkienism and a Shakespeareism. Oh, this is perfect. This is just peak house of our right here. Let's just go back and forth. You start. Go. You first.

Go. Take me to middle earth. I demand a fucking smuggle voice. I was promised. This is not a smiggle line. Gade L says... This is one of my favorite lines. fellowship, right? Pity. It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand, pity and mercy, not to strike

without need. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet for good or ill before the end, and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many, yours not the least. One of my all-time favorite lines. All-time fave. Yeah. This idea that like, can you give it to them, wisdom from Gandalf? Right. About imparting justice. And that, that, you know, he says, And in a similar passage, he says, you know, like, does he just basically, essentially, I'm paraphrase, does he deserve to die? Yes. Like, many live who deserve death and many die who deserve to live, but will you be the one to give it to them? Yeah. You know? Chills. Right. Yeah. So this idea that, you know, especially when the force, Jedi say the force is meant to use to defend not attack, that there's a way, you know, I think. think this idea of Obi-1 having mercy on Vader here, whether or not he deserves it.

And in the long game, and this is eventually that whole Bilbo's pity idea, which is one of my favorite concepts in all of Lord of the Rings, that applies most directly to Luke, right? Luke believing that there is something in Anakin and like, you know, pulling for that means that Vader's eventual face turn in Return of the Jedi sort of similar

to the action of Swigles I've just gotten a lot of tweets last week is is key to the end of the empire

the temporary halting of Palpatine until suddenly he returns okay hit me so now and I'll hit you quickly with takes me before you hit me with Thrones and Harry, which is, um, very famous, very famous speech

from the merchant of Venice. The quality of mercy is not strained. It dropeth as gentle from heaven, as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed. It blesses him that gives and him that takes. Mercy is something. It is a divine concept. It is from God to, to forgive divine, like all of that, all of that concept. And so, If you are a truly enlightened Jedi, you are merciful. I love this. I'm with you 100%. I think this is such a thematically rich vein to tap.

It makes me even more desperately sad that Obi-1 ends up in only a master of evil, Darth case. But there's so much, there's honestly still so much story to tell between now and then. The reason that it made me think of Thrones and, you know, one of the most consequential moments in Thrones history, which is the exchange between Varys and Ned about the madness of mercy. And I've always been... One of the things that I love about a song of ice and firing Game of Thrones and love about George R. Martin's storytelling is that he's so unafraid to look at the dark side of what could

be an empowering idea, right? And the way that in certain characters hands, like the way we see Vader or Anakin, thinking about mercy, this thing that should be good and pure can be warped. And the tragedy of Ned's, again, gave a thrown spoilers,

you know, so much of the tragedy of Ned's fall, and not just in that moment, not just with the decision of what to do with the children and the Red Keep, right? But everything dating back,

as we've talked about before, and surely will again, to the decisions that he made in the first place about John and what secrets to share and what secrets to keep. And when the instinct to protect can be your undoing, but also like the fact that that is okay and that that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Like just if something goes wrong and just if you lose, it doesn't mean that you were wrong to want to do the

right thing. And, you know, so the Harry moment, which is one of my favorite half-blood Prince sequences is atop the lightning struck tower when Draco and Dumbledore are facing off. And Dumbledore says, no, D'Raco, it is my mercy that matters now, right? And that feels like maybe a

very close parallel even to what you're sketching out for a potential finale conflict where there can be a decision to walk away. There can be a decision to not strike down your opponent. And like, I just, I don't know, the idea that

something that Anakin views as a weakness, mercy, being a source of differentiation and strength and the thing that helps Obi-Wan really, really keep finding that path, finding that way, walking back into that light, turning on that light, and immersing himself in the power and majesty of the force again.

Like, Obi-1 says later in the episode to Hajah, he expects me to surrender, he knows I'll do everything I can, to protect these people. And again, this connects to this idea across the season. We saw it with The Inquisitors in episode one,

the Jedi, like the idea that the compassion can be here undoing is very much of a peace with this. Because, like, the characters that we root for can't allow that to be true. Like, they can't allow that to be true. And it's similar to this idea of, like, using your weapon against you, right? They're using...

It's not a weapon, but it is, like, the Jedi's strongest tool or strongest, you know, whatever, is their compassion, right? And to try to use their, that against them is the Sith way, you know? I love that point. And I think we should go, because now we're just going so out of order and I love it.

We're going by the order of theme. Let's talk. That makes me think about the box of lightsabers that, that Obi-1 discovers. And there are a couple different moments in this episode where that's relevant. There's the, there's confronting the mess, the etching on the wall and the crate of lightsabers, which I'll circle back to in a second,

but there's the handoff when he gives his saber and the hollow projector, which we simply must carve out a solid four hours to discuss. Bail, I have some notes. We'll talk about that later. And Haja, I have some notes. Oh, my God. It's, woo.

Oh, Obi-1 Canobi gave me a handful of precious items, and I'm definitely just going to drop one of them. I mean, look, like Mando put the Dark Sabre in luggage check. Like, characters do confounding things with precious heirloops all the time. but yes, some tough stuff from, from Aja and Obie here. But thematically,

you know, Rokin says in that moment, you want to tell me how you're going to fight without a weapon? And Obi-1 says there are other ways to fight. And like,

the reason I thought of that with what you were just saying is because we think of the lightsaber as this embodiment and manifestation of what it means to be a Jedi. And in many ways it is.

But I think one of the real areas of interest for this series is embracing a larger view of what it truly means to be a Jedi and truly means to tap into the force and be attuned to the force in a way that is helpful and positive and good, the light side, right? So it made me think of a couple of Yoda callbacks.

We've talked about our guy yodes a lot today. Your weapons, you will not need them. I have this in my notes. Yeah, I thought it's so many times in this episode, both with Obi-1 looking down at the crate because you think, how devastating is it, that all of those force users, my read on it was that they were not the lightsabers of fallen Jedi because we know that those would be in Fortress Inquisitorious or with the

Empire elsewhere, they left those behind to go live a life in hiding, right? Because it's a giveaway, as we know from Canaan and others, right? And on the one hand, how tragic that is, but on the other hand, how empowering it is, because putting that lightsaber in a box doesn't mean necessarily abandoning every aspect of your life as a Jedi. There are all of these other ways. And like, what's the other thing that on the heels of that great Yoda quote? What else does he say to Luke? Well, what is he going to find in there? Only what you take with you. Yes. Yes. What's in there? Only what you take with you. I think that's so keen. And I think surrendering the lightsabers, but I thought of it also, yeah, when Obi-1 gives up his

lightsaber, right? And he's sort of like, he's walking in only what you. You're in, only what you take with you. And I think, you know, the empire parallels are not quite what we expected, but I do think this idea of Luke going into the tree cave in Degabah and discovering in such a Joseph Campbell way, like himself inside the Vader suit, and Obi-1 having to reckon with the ways in which he abandoned the younglings, if you want to put that on him, that he is, his hands are not entirely clean of that, you know, that he had a role to play in that, much like Annika did. I love the other, there's a new hope echo there too, because, you know, there's that great Obi-Wan Han moment as they're nearing the Death Star where he says you can't win, but there are

alternatives to fighting. And I love thinking about, like, how a moment here on Jabim with Roken and all of these characters could have helped inform Obi-Won's real belief in that idea and like sharing that with Han later. In terms of the wall etchings, which are Obi-1 is reading and parts lots of, lots of Easter eggs.

The legends character references abound. Much like on Mapuzo when he was looking at the etchings in the safe house and discovered the Quinlan message, like he's very pensive, very reflective. And the inscription that he reads here is the light will fade but is never forgotten.

And I loved this. Did you not love it? I know I absolutely love it. I'm having a big moment with all of these like graffiti, the light conversation because I mean, we're already running so long. But like, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior, Bendu? I want to talk about, I always have a minute to talk about Bendu. I want to talk about this idea.

there's a there's a there's not okay so one time I was talking to it's really smart writer friend of mine who was talking about how he was like don't you think it's funny that a lot of people who grew up on Star Wars let's talk about like Gen X some millennials etc that when you ask them their idea of religion they believe in something that sounds a lot like the force and when he said that to me I was like yeah that's actually kind of because I don't have an organized religion but I believe in a sort of thing that surrounds us and runs around Like I do. It's the force essentially. But something that's always bothered me about the force is this idea of the light side, light side, dark side. Like I hate a binary. I really hate a binary. Which is why Bendu has always been, like, has always been since he showed up in Revel's like my favorite figure. Oh my God. I love Bendu. I don't know if we've talked about Bendu much. This is a treat for me.

But what I found really helpful in this Obi-1 series. which is sometimes very poorly written and sometimes beautifully written are all these comments about the light being not just good versus bad Master of Evil is such a terrible line and a terrible phrase

but a light in the dark a hope of you know like light side sounds so much better when you're thinking of it not as like the right side or the good side but as the hopeful side the helpful side the merciful side the merciful side all that sort of stuff.

I just, so I have found all of these little phrases about the force as an idea, as a physical light in the dark, very moving. I'm having the same reaction to it. I'm really with you here. And I think that like one of the Bhandu moments that I love so much, and it connects very deeply to this idea that you're highlighting, is when he's like,

I don't have the exact word for word quote, but he's speaking with Canaan. This is the beginning of season three of rebels. And he's, Canaan is presented to the holocron, the Sith holocron. And Benju says to him,

an object cannot make you good or evil. The temptation of power. Forbidden knowledge. Like, says, I think he says even the desire to do good can lead some down that path. But then the,

the kicker is, but only you can change yourself. And that's like one of my favorite Star Wars lines and favorite Star Wars ideas because, as you're saying, it rejects this very strict reading of an either or there's so much room for nuance with an idea like that. Only you can change yourself. Well, how do you decide to try? How long does it take? It's every decision that you make. Like it's the totality of the choices in your life. And when Obie, is looking at that inscription the light will fade but has never forgotten. Of course we think back to that beautiful exchange

between Leah and Obi-1 where he's asking what it feels, she asks what the force feels like and he asks her, well, what does it feel like when you turn on a light in the dark? Safety, safety.

And I think that this line, it speaks so fully to Obi-1's relationship to the force. And also to the galaxy's relationship to the force, right? Like to the way that this receded from you. Think about a line like, Motties, your sad devotion to that ancient religion line in a new hope, right? The Jedi, the connection to and presence of the force.

On an individual level for Obi-1 here and this, the years leading up to the show, more broadly across galactic history, like, it changed, it receded, but it wasn't forgotten. And so when Obi-1 sees, like, Quinlan's message in episode three or this message here, that helps him hold on to that hope. And that hope is then the way that he decides to change. Only you can change yourself.

I was just looking at that Bendu quote this morning. And I was actually thinking about it as I really was literally. And I was thinking about how it applies to Riva, right? The temptation of power, forbidden knowledge. And even the desire to do good can lead some down that path. But only you can change yourself. Bendu. Bendu.

My guy. He fucking rules. Love Bendu. We got to talk about Tala. We didn't circle back to the Reva Vader dual. I will just say that, as I mentioned already, I thought that was like incredibly riveting television. And the fact that the level of the taunt.

Again, playing with his food, right? He could have killed her right away. And he's like, no, sure, let's do this fight. And I will not even draw my. weapon. Yes. It's interesting, too, because as a, you know, a compare and contrast like that, there are other ways to fight line that is guiding Obi-1. You could say, like, there's a way to read it where you could say, like, Vader has learned that lesson two. Anakin has learned that lesson too. But to me, it was like he's not facing her without it. The way he's facing her initially

without his, he doesn't use a saber. He doesn't draw it, right? He's using the force at first to to challenge and block her, twisting her around with her inquisitorial blade, then disarming her, splitting the blade, getting both of them back. Like, it's just unbelievable choreography and unbelievable to watch. Like, it doesn't feel like a real recognition of wisdom with him. It's just a pure taunt. It's a power play. And between that and the transport pull, which is a, it's a fun.

any Star Wars moment because, like, I gasped. I thought it was incredible. It looked so cool. It's Vader at the absolute peak of his strength and power. Like, it looked, it looked easy for him. It makes you think of Ray. Not in a, not in a great way in terms of the chewy, the way the chewy plotline ultimately on spools and rises.

The chewy is on another transporter moment in rides that rocker. It's a rocker. It's a top of my list of sins. of that movie. And also, like, one of the encapsulations of how something that could have been, like, incredibly potent ended up just being, like, walked back and undone for no reason. Makes you think of StarCiller, the Force Unleash, there's an Assoca moment with a mall ship. So, like, there are these great echoes to other moments of Star Wars history. And then also, this is something in Limburg, you know, talks about a lot with, like, the whole maneuver and other things. Like, you kind of can't help but say, like, why doesn't this happen all the time? Why doesn't anyone who's strong enough do this all the time? But I just personally, I don't care. I thought it was so cool. I loved that. No, it was cool. Limber slacked us about the Holder maneuver and I was like, Yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point.

But also the Holder maneuver was five. When that happened, I was just like, this is one of the great thrills of my life as a moviegoer. I love the Hold of maneuver, honestly. But I think that it's less the pull it out of the sky, rip it open, like a sardine cans under a thing. And more the like, and I can yada yada, like in his haste, in his impatient. in his rage, he, in his excitement and glee of finally getting Obi-Wan in front of him or whatever. His need for victory and blinded him. He forgot to sense whether or not there was anyone actually on board that transport.

Oh, you're going, Danny kind of forgot about the art of three, Vader kind of forgot to sense life forms in another transport. It's really consistent. The way the force sensing works deeply inconsistent, and that's fine. It's the way that Homelander's superhero hearing works on the boys. Yeah, yeah, and Vaughn HQ. Yeah. When the plot needs it too, it does, and when it doesn't, it doesn't. Anything else I want to say?

Oh, well, I mean, I just want to shout out. I always love lightsaber choreography, often incredible. And often what's great about a lightsaber fight is that it is almost always telling us something about that character. I would want to say always. but maybe almost always. The way in which they took the inquisitorious lightsaber, which is such a cool device, and used it every which way you possibly could in this fight,

including having Vader at one point give us an Asoka stance is just some of the best fight choreography I've ever seen. The Asoka mirror image with him holding the two blades gave me a chill. I sure it did. It made me think of... Actually, because there's the moment where Riva thrusts the blade and Vader just, like, turns his head just in time and it doesn't make contact with this helmet. And that made me think of Assoca too. Twilight of the Apprentice, the duel on Malacor between Anakin and Asoka, one of my favorite Star Wars sequences ever. One of my favorite Star Wars duels. I'm wondering if we will get, and we've talked about this before, but like I really felt here that they were teasing us for that? Like, will we get contact with the helmet and a split so that Obi-1 in their final showdown can see Anne? his face beneath and we can hear Hayden's voice the way that we that the way that in rebels

we heard an anikin break through the Vader modulation and say Asoka and it's like one of the most agonizing moments in Star Wars history give us give us the old and a return of the Jedi humpty dumpty Anakin not that no but maybe like you know breach one of his eye shield so we could just get a little glimmer of the human face below. Before we talk about what Riva crawls toward, which is the bail, a hollow message. Bail!

Anything else you want to say about the Grand Inquisitor? I mean, he comes in, he flexes, he makes a speech about revenge. Powans have two stomachs, so he was fine. It's stupid, though. Where was he, like... You got to do your Quigon bit here, because you have some,

there's a lot of stomach stabbing in this season and everyone's fine. As there's been, there's been stomach wound storytelling across Star was recently. Fenick as well,

right? Obviously, mall cut in half, fine. And I will say on the rear front, that was another loop that closed when Vader stabs her in the present timeline

and we see the stabbing of Order 66. We had talked about that moment in episode three where she touches, like her abdomen. So we got that loop closed here. Any, any, uh, quagon abdomen wound, uh, speeches that you'd like to make here.

So I know this is important to you. This is wholesale lifted from, uh, the mint edition boy, Stephen Jomey, we were talking about this. Uh, if a lightsaber in the gut means nothing, that is quagon Jinn a joke to you. I think it's cheap no matter what to, I hate, I hate a fake out death, whether it's Chewy on a transporter or the fucking Grand Inquisitor, who we knew was in Rebels. I hate particularly confounding her because of the rebels. Yeah, I hate a fake out dead. It's so weird.

Why? But like, for Reva to be stabbed and then for her to be like, I mean, maybe if she were crawling towards the back to tank and was going to like haul herself into the back to tank, which sounds really hard to do because you have to harness yourself up and stuff like that, like maybe. But she's crawling yourself. And I imagine she's just going to be mostly for. fine by next week, maybe clutching her side a bit.

So Quigangin, one of the greatest Jedi's of all time, it makes his death look like ridiculous if everyone's surviving lightsaber. I can listen to your, as you argue, that a lightsaber stab cauterizes the wound in real time, but then why did Quigon go out like that? Maybe because he was, he done his force ghost training, you know, we'll have Ben on to talk about that later, but maybe he was just ready. Just ready. Let me...

Can I just do a dramatic reading of what secrecy expert, Baylor Gonda says on this comms message? I just... You can. I need to, like, take a deep breath and collect myself first because I find this, like, one of the most upsetting things that's ever happened in Star Wars history. Seriously.

I know we said no communication, but your silence worries me. If he's found you, if he's learned of the children. If I don't hear from you soon, I'll head to Tatooine. Owen needs help with the boy. I pray you're safe, Obi-Wan, both of you. Terrible. So obviously, he's got all the information there to give Reval the information she needs to find Luke if she needs to. But there's no reason for Bill. If Bill's like, if I don't hear from you, I'm going to go see about some moisture farming or something or something.

Use a fucking code. You're one of the founders of the rebellion, and you routinely work with agents who use the code name fulcrum because it is so important to communicate in coded fashion. Bail Organa, I'm going to spoil something for you, Joe. My secret scroll today is bail organa,

because there's no other explanation for how Bail Organa has forgotten everything about their secret keeping and risk-averse tactics. He might as well have just said, I know we said no communication, but here is our entire secret plan. Like, I am so befuddled by this that the only, the only thing I am able to hold on to is, maybe this is why Leah's message to Obi-1 and a new hope was so basic and cold.

Couldn't put any personal details in there because Bail Organa had fucked it up so badly nine years prior. Okay? It's the only way. Oh, you solved it. You solved it. I can wrap my head around. Wow. Everything makes sense now.

Thank you, Baylor Gana for making that make sense. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You saved a new hope. You did it. Devastating move from bail Argana here. So we still have to talk about Tala, but should we talk about the tattooing implications of this now?

Or do we want to hit Tala and Leah quickly and then move to the tattooing implications? Okay. This is going to be the longest podcast ever, but I just want to say this. I'm having a blast. Me too. Thrill of my week. Chris and Andy, who we love and adore, are not hanging with the OB-1 series. That's fine.

Love them so much. But something that I've heard Andy talk about a lot recently because I, you know, was listening to them also cover Better Call Saul, is this idea of a prequel where we know the outcome, we know the fates of so many characters, how that saps the drama out of something. And Joby Harold talked to us about this a little bit, that, like, really? Eva is the question mark, or I guess Tala was a question mark in a series where we know, we know Obi-1 survives, we know Vader survives, we know Luke survives, we know Leia survives, etc, et cetera,

and that they all are in their places at the beginning of a new hope. I don't always agree with that, especially when it comes to Better Call Saul. I don't always agree that knowing that someone survives something saps all the tension out of it. That being said, cutting to Little Luke, tucked up in his bed in tax. I'm like, that kid's fine. I don't know. Whatever drama, like, that dumb farm kid is going to grow up to like have a perfectly a boring, a boring life until he will grow up to complain about Tashi Station.

So what am I supposed to be scared of? Like what, what am I supposed to feel here? So that's sort of how I felt. How do you feel? It's so funny. Like I'm feeling a lot of tension and passion and excitement about how the final Vader-O-B-1 confrontation will go and how these two people can part ways and still live. I'm feeling a lot of tension and passion around what role Quigon is going to play and we're going to talk to Ben about that. But is Luke going to be okay?

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's a great point. To the, I mean, it was one of the questions heading into the series, right? And I will say to the overall stakes question, I am firmly in the, to me,

stakes are not just whether a character lives or dies camp. 100%. Like, I am so, especially with characters like Obi-1 and Vader who we've spent so much of our lives learning about and spending time with, I just really want a better understanding, understand, like, what headspace they were in and quite literally what they were doing in these missing years. So that's enough for me. You're irrefutably right, though, to note that there's

a sapping of some of the dramatic tension when we end on a shot of a slumbering boy who we know will moisture farm for years to go, right? Well, because the implications with Biggs in his future. Like, the implication of that shot is, will this child be okay? Like, that's the implication that shot. And yeah, life or death stakes are not the most important thing. What we can learn about, Obi-1. Someone sent me a tweet this week that was really interesting about, like, what we can learn about Leah in terms of, like, her reluctance to be a leader and, like, all this sort of stuff like that.

Well, I learned about Leah is that she's got an Ezra-like vent-crawling game going. Great. Great stuff. The other thing I learned about Leah, let's just get rid of this stupid side plot really quickly. The other thing I went about- sharing. You said that. That was your first note to us about.

the episode. It's really up there with, like, distending wetly for me, aggressive chittering of Lola. Flesh distends wetly can't be topped, and I won't hear an argument to the come jury, but carry on.

But the, someone else tweeted at me this week, they were like, or no, it was for our mailbag. It's not in our mailbag this week, so I feel fine saying it. He was like, what was your favorite, what's your favorite child actors

cannot work too many hours on a set move? Was it the double? double kidnapping of Leah or was it shoving her up a vent for the entirety of this episode, right? Like, she has to keep short hours. So let's just give her a side plot. And at least they like, she wasn't like cowering in a cave. She was doing something active, I suppose.

But whatever, that happened. Leah went up a vent and cured Lola and fixed a circuit breaker. I'm glad that Lola's back. Glad to see the blue sheen in her eyes instead of the evil red. I guess the restraining bolt turned her evil. don't totally understand that compared to past restraining bullet usages across the vast history of Star Wars canon. I guess we're meant to understand that because it makes her compliant that her commands then were to act in that fashion fine. I, the ladder exchange was just, okay.

Here's what I'll say. I want Ginovi. Do what she asks, you trust me. I trust her, get her the latter. Not the finest moment for this character. It was an interesting, like, okay, and I have no issue with the actual, like, vent plot because that is actually something that, like,

Ezra joke was sincere. Like, that's something that happens all the time with Ezra and rebels and other characters. Like, you got to crawl to a vent to solve a thing. That's fine. The thing that really stood out to me here was it's this argument and this back and forth, Hajah, Rochin, Leah, Obi-Won.

It highlighted to me, like, how strange the dynamic on Jabeem is with these characters, half of whom we are as invested in as like any characters in our lives as story consumers and half of whom we have literally just met and know nothing about. And so to watch this exchange between them and we have no attachment to our understanding of this collective is like surreal. Did you see my tweet about like, what can you tell me about?

I did. Yeah. Got a lot of replies, a lot of great replies to that. Yeah. I need to care about Roken more than I do. I need to care about Hajim more than I do just base on the, you know, I care because he's played by Camille and Johnny, but that's not enough, right? I cared about Tala, but they killed her. So...

Let's talk about this for a minute. I was devastated by this. Really mad. Devastated. Just upset. Why? It was so stupid. It just, like, it just felt so...

Okay, first of all, Tala's the only character that they bothered to, like, give us an investment in, right? She's so good and Deer Varma is so good. She's an incredible performance and character. I wanted to be with her for years. I want her to be an Andor for 24 episodes. This reminds me of them blowing up Jennifer Beals and Boa Fett. And I was like, no. They one character I cared about.

So, you know, they kill Deer Varma. Okay, maybe they invested her so much in her so that we would care more when she dies. But, like, it felt so ineffectual to me. It's like she blows herself up for Obi-Wan to then just immediately surrender himself. He is like two... And it's just discussed, Joe. A gut wound doesn't need to be fatal.

No. Obi-1 is literally like two stormtroopers away from her. Two like straw men away from her and he can't fight through them to get to her. The number of times that we see characters, and I will say, I was emotionally like moved seeing him call out and cry out,

Tala, no over and over. over again. And I was emotionally touched when Ned B, who also took, took some fatal damage, powered down and, like, he had Tala embraced and Ned's final act was to try to shield her. That was very sweet and that was very moving. But we see so many force push or force pull maneuvers in this series. Now, most of those are like an act of viciousness. But let the force do some work for you here. Force pull Tala right out of harm's way through the breach. Like, let's think on our feet a little bit here, Obie. Come on, my guy. Also, my note to Tala is the same as my note to every character in Star Wars history who has ever had a thermal

detonator. Not everyone, because sometimes shout out Leah, shout out Return of the Jedi. They use them effectively. When I, this reminded me so powerfully, I know you have other examples that you want to cite other other callbacks. This reminded me so powerfully of IG-11 in Mando. And they're exiting the lava flows and IG-11. Our beloved nurse droid uses the thermal detonator to sacrifice himself to take out the troopers. Why? And why did this happen here? You've got a bomb in your hand.

Throw it toward the people who are charging at you. This doesn't need to happen. I don't understand. It was on the heels of another, actually, like, really interesting conversation between Obi-Wan and Tala on the one hand, it had the instant, like, oh, we are getting a, a backstory download here. I have classic Star Wars. I've got a bad feeling about this

in terms of what might happen next, right? But like, Tala is talking and Obi-1 is not saying anything. It's just that you in facial expression acting in return and there's still such like crackling energy and chemistry between them that you just want more of it. You want more scenes with them. And there's more of a lesson, right?

And this was rewarding because it was a lesson that worked in both ways. Like we talked last week about how when she told him like that he had to forget the past, it's like, no, that's not the last. lesson. And here, we hear that she has realized that. That she didn't want to forget her past either. You have to, you have to channel it so that you can find your purpose moving forward. And we learn about her and her, more of her

history with the, with the empire and taking out those four, four sensitive families. And this like scales off of the eyes moment for her. But I just, I don't know what, why, why she had to go. I just don't know why she had to go. And he looked despondent. And I will say also, Joe, that this was like, like, Okay, Tal has been in Obi-Wan's life for three episodes of television, so I don't want to be too extreme here. She is obviously not someone that he has known as long as Quigon or someone he is known as long as Sotene. But I was really struck watching his response to her death by just, like, reflecting on, and we talked about this in our Obi-1 Primer pod, how many people he cares about he has watched die right in front of him and how devastating that is for him.

Like, this just really tragic through light of his life. It's just too much loss for one person to bear. And because of that, I don't think it needed to happen here. Also tragic, like, are you and I and our dreamed nine years where maybe she could make conjugal visits to Tadmeen out the door. I do want to talk about something I learned this week about, of all the droids we've seen, sacrifice themselves to save our heroes. L337, I do love when you mention, blah, blah, K2SO and Rogue One is the saddest of the saddest of, you. me. Like, Ned B did a great heroic job here. But K2S.O, and I just found out this week, have you ever read the Rogue One novelization? No. Okay. Can I tell you what K2SO is thinking as he dies? Because it's in the novelization? With one second left until total shutdown, K2SO chose to

mentally simulate an impossible scenario in which Cassian Ander escaped alive. The simulation pleased him. Heart wrenching. Oh my God. Anyway, I love K2SO. I love droids. Tala, you deserve better. The end.

Will we see Tala again? How can we? I don't know. Oh, a young Tala prequel series? Maybe. Sure. Maybe. Okay.

What else do we need to hit before our quick rundown of the pre-finally questions, most of which we've covered already? Anything else from the episode that we haven't hit? I don't think so. I think I got everything I wanted to say. I quote a little Shakespeare. Oh, I'm just going to go back to this one line. Because all he'll see is me is one of the most romantic things I've ever heard in my entire life.

And I'm not trying to like Pride Month any sort of like brother, you know, whatever relationship that Obi-1 and I can have. I'm just saying that is a fucking romantic thing to say. It's all he'll see is me. It's an incredible line also like same. Just, oh my God. Who hung us? Vader, we've been there. I know. Yeah.

On the Tatooine front as we look ahead, I I guess I'll just say, and again, I'll be patient. Can't wait to see the finale. I'm holding out to hope that it's a heater. I thought that leaving Tatooine in the first episode was one of the smartest choices the show made. And avoiding so many of these, well, Luke can not find out about X, Y, and Z.

And Vader certainly cannot find out that Luke or Obi-Wan are there. He can't find out that Luke exists. Like, both the films, the comics, like, it is cemented canon when Vader learns that he has a son. Like, nothing can jeopardize that. I was having brunch on Sunday before this episode with one of my best pals in the world. And we were... arguing vigorously about the show because he's not a fan. And he was really excited for it. And

this was again, before the Luke ending here, we were just talking about the Tatooine element in the first place. It's not the one you know. Okay. But you'd love them. That's great. And he said that one of the things he was like, he thought the show needed to do. I might be slightly mischaracterizing this. If so, I'm sorry. But I think this is an accurate summation. One of the things, things he thought the show needed to do or was hoping that it would do regarding Luke was actually explain why Obi-1 wound up back there for that many years living that hermitted life. I think he said this on the heels of me saying one of the things I was struggling with was after walking through the Hall of Corpse Trophies in Fortress Inquisitorious, how Obi-1 could

stop the fight. You made the great point last week. Well, maybe he doesn't, right? Maybe this hermit life is like a cover. And that would be really cool if that ends up being the case. the only thing I'm kind of holding on to with this Luke return is that introducing a threat to Luke

and you could see when Obi-1 feels Reva discovering the fucking bail message at the end like he feels he says something's wrong his body changes his face changes he can feel a disturbance in the force but then he says it's probably nothing like trying to calm Roken down

you know let's just let's not let Roken worry he's got other stuff on his mind like the umpteenth busted high driver drive in for rebellion history. But like, moving away from only focusing on Luke into this wider view of how he can help and why it is worth being back in the fight is a huge part of, like, the moral of this story and this part of Obi-1's arc. So I don't want anything to jeopardize that.

But you do actually need the show to explain how he ends up back there. And so maybe reintroducing a threat directly to Luke helps explain that. But, like, it does just feel naughty. And I mean, and maybe, again, we're a summer of expectationing this, right? But like maybe also we need like a little bit of a repair of the O and Obi-1 relationship, a reason for. Well, Reba's going to head right there because she knows who Owen is because they had a lengthy chat. I know. Oh, my God.

But like, yeah. So, like, yeah. So, like, let's say Obi-1 and Vader have their whole thing. And this is almost like a coda of like, and he's headed back to Tad. And then there's a danger there. And maybe, again, I'm just fanficking, but like maybe Owen is like, hey, we need you here after all. You being a creep in the desert is actually very important to us.

It was great to see the same vantage point from Obie's old perch, you know, looking down with the Lour's home set and he wasn't there. Sure. All right. Wait, but then how? Play out, play out that string for a minute. So Riva goes there. she goes to Owens,

to the Lars Holmes dead, right? Yeah. She's like, hey, I know everything. Literally everything thanks to bail. Yeah. Loose lip-sing ships. Owen reaches out, he asks for help.

Obi-on comes back. Has he dropped Leah off on Alderan at this point? Or is she with them? She's got to be out. She's got to be on Alderon, right? Okay. Yeah. Vader, we hear when Roken says that the hyperdrive is busted.

They say they're on the tail, right? Like they're tracking them. They're behind them. So if they go to Tatooine, how does Darth Vader not wind up there? What does the show do to avoid that? That's like the one, they can't do that. I don't. What if it's like, what if it's like, Leah, I mean, any order of operation of like lay a drop

Vader, Obi-1 fight or Obi-1 knowing that Vader's on their ass and only his eyes for him, decoys so that they can lay a drop, you know what I mean? But then so who deals with Riva on Tatooine? Because that being this follow-up. But that feels like the wrong order to me. You're probably, that's probably right. I think you're right. That's a de-escalation.

That's a real calm down. I completely agree. I still think it has to be that order. I think, I think Vader has to be handled. Is that a satisfying ending if Vader and, it's the same reason I think it's impossible for us to not get another conflict because I think an open-ended final confrontation between them could be very satisfying. But we need one more.

Showdown. You got it? Did you solve it? I have a great way to segue. Are we going to Moistafar? I have a great way to segue into Ben Lindberg. As much of a de-escalation, like, bummer it will be to go from a Vader-O-B-1 fight back to Riva, Lord bless her.

If we end with a major Quigon-O-B-1 interaction, will that not feel like a high? You know what I mean? That's compelling to me because I have been thinking that we needed the Quigon the communing with Quigon sequence to happen before the final final concertat, final inside of the show, obviously not final overall confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader,

but it could be a very cathartic way for Obi-1 to move forward after. I would be into that. What if we, like, hear Quigon, we should just talk to Ben about this, but what if we, what if you, like, hear Quigon during the fight, but we see him at the end.

Do you know what I mean? Much like Luke here. Obi-Wan. When he's on the death, right, it's like, It rhymes about me. Checking his inner parts and how he's like,

Wait, is Sorala Guinness? Gold leader, is that you? Wedge? Incredeless stuff from Luke Skywalker, who I adore and who is a real dummy in moments like that. Wedge, are you doing your Sorreliginus impression again?

Oh my God. Iconic. Okay, you're right. Let's bring on Ben. Let's bring on O.B. Ben Lembergie. I wonder if she means old Ben Lindbergh.

All right, Ben. we have been talking about what could potentially await in the finale. Our hopes, our dreams, our force ghosts. We don't know if we are going to see force ghost quagon, but we believe that we will. And so we have decided to ask you to do a force ghost lore download either so that we are ready for what awaits or so that we are satisfied with some sort of force ghost content if we don't get that in the finale. Yes. This will be an aspirational lore segment. Yeah, so instead of discussing something we've already seen, we will discuss something we hope to see. Though whether we see Quigon or not next week, we know our guys, Obi-Wan and Anakin get their ghosts on eventually. So it's relevant regardless. So what do we call these luminous blue beings? I grew up going to Catholic school and the priests never really picked the lane between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. Same here. Force ghost, force spirit, take your pick. Spirit seems more solemn and mystical, but I'm a forced ghost guy.

I don't know about you. Anyway, whatever you call it, it is a kind of consciousness that endures after death in those who pursue some special training to retain their identity after dying and becoming one with the force. So their body disappears, in most cases at least, but their spirit, their essence, their soul is preserved indefinitely. and what self-respecting religion doesn't offer some form of eternal life. That's pretty part for the course.

So this is the Jedi version. You got to give people something to get them in the tent. So it's a little more complicated than just sticking to the Jedi code and go into confession. Technically, you don't have to be a fully trained Jedi, but you do have to be a pretty hardcore, selfless light-sider, like a seriously straight edge. force user who doesn't dabble in the dark side. And then you also have to take the continuing education courses in forced ghostliness unless you're Anakin. Yeah, I was like, or you could be Anakin Skywalker. Medi-Higlorian Jesus. So, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Short-out, you know.

The normal rules don't apply to him. So this is not at all a commonplace power, even though you might think it was from watching the trilogies. Quigon does it, not initially, but eventually. Obi-Wan does it, Yoda does it, Anakin, Luke and Leah do it, but it's far from common knowledge. And in fairness to the Sith, got to maintain my journalistic impartiality here, present both sides.

Who's to say which one is worse? Yeah, Bedlenburg fans. This is a crazy energy from you so far today. I'm very tired. This is shocking. The Fox News of Laura Dumps. Here we go. Even the darksiders have their own way of sticking around after death multiple ways that some consider it to be unnatural.

But as Yoda says in the original Clone Wars series finale, open to us a path remains that unknown to the Sith is Yoda's syntax is particularly tortured in the animated series. Through this path, victory we may yet find not victory in the Clone Wars, but victory for all time. Sounds pretty important. It's sort of the secret weapon. So you're probably wondering, Ben, how might a Jedi cultivate this very valuable skill? I was. Well, let me quote Quigon, who lays it all out in the season six Clone Wars episode Voices after consuming a small mountain of edibles, possibly, he says, I am a manifestation of the force. A force that consists of two parts. Living beings generate the living force, which in turn, powers the wellspring that is the cosmic force. All energy from the living force from all things that have ever lived feeds into the cosmic force, binding everything and communicating to us

through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now. Yeah, that's me after a gummy or two on a Friday, for sure. Yeah. So everyone clear on that? Yeah, Craigon is definitely California sober. Yeah. I'm not taking any questions on the specifics there. If you're confused, I don't know what you're not getting here. Take it up with Quigga. The living force feeds the cosmic force. You mix in some midaclorians and presto. Now you're immortal and your spirit can sit on a log and explain why you lied to Luke.

From a certain point in view, guys. Come on. A lot of what we know here comes from a three-episode arc at the end of Clone War season six, voices, destiny, and sacrifice, which were the final episodes of the series until it came back for season seven. So in the first of those episodes, Yoda's meditating, as he does, and all of a sudden he hears the voice of Quigon, which he finds deeply disturbing. It reminds me of the friend's episode where Rachel dresses up as Princess Leia because Ross says it's his fantasy, but then Rachel shows up in the bedroom and Ross Amanda's his mom instead. And he's like, get out of my head. What are you doing here? It's kind of like that. It's just like that.

It's exactly not, then. Yoda's like, hey, I'm meditating here. You can't be Quigon. Quigon's dead. And then Quigon spirit starts moving the furniture around and picking up candles and picking up Yoda, which is pretty rude. And even so, Yoda and the council are worried that he's losing his mind or he's being manipulated by the Sith, which just goes to show you how anomalous this skill is.

That someone as wise as ancient as Yoda who's been around the block of few times, he didn't think this was possible. So it turns out that while he was still alive, he also missed the rise of Palpatina the Sith. So every now and then, he misses something. It's okay. He's not omniscient. But it turns out that while he was still alive in the traditional sense, Quigon travels to a world known as the force planet or the wellspring of life, which is basically the birthplace of all life and the juncture that connects the cosmic force and the living force, which we're all on the same page about because of the earlier quote. Right.

I'm with you. With you. So when your force-sensitive toddler asks you, Mommy, where do Mid-Echlorians come from? You say, no one really knows, honey, but we think they come from the force planet. And there, Quigon learned from five force priestesses who had held onto their consciousness after death. Now, there are some official sources that say he, picked up this trick from a shaman of the wills. And this points back to the early drafts of episode four,

which George Lucas originally envisioned as a story told by an immortal being called a will in the journal of the wills. And there was supposed to be a scene in episode three where Quigon would tell Yoda that the shaman of the wills had figured out this one weird trick to be immortal. And then Yoda would later explain that it's a secret of the ancient order of the wills. Somehow that did not make the final cut. in that scene, Quigon would have said it is a state acquired through compassion, not greed, which explains why it's off limits to SIF. So Dave Filoni, our guy, valiantly tried to make these origin stories agree with each other by saying that the five forced priestesses were originally one being that died a long time ago

and appear as five separate projections to mere mortals. So they're like a holy quintet. So maybe the forced priestesses were the will. I'm sure that Faloni loses sleep over this, but I'm not too stressed about the inconsistency myself. Wait, do you think Liam Nieson was just like, George is like, we need you for Sith, Revenge of Sith? He's like, I'm good, thanks. Yeah. I can't believe there's a version of Sith an already great movie with that and a full-on love triangle that we were deprived of.

I know. We missed that on so much. I cannot let you get away with. Can I let you get away with an already great movie? Well, I'm talking about a movie I already love. How about that? So Quigon didn't complete his priestess training before he got Darth Mauled. So at first, he couldn't pull off the full force ghost.

He could only manage a disembodied voice, better than nothing, though. The first time he communicated post-mortem was when Anikin was... You phrased that. It makes me think of Corrigan-Ragnarok and the hammer pulled you offline. Sorry, carry on. Not what you were going for, but... He's got that going for him, which is nice. So the first time he communicated post-mortem was when Anakin was busy slaughtering the Tuskins like animals.

And Quigun calls out to Anakin to stop slaughtering them. But Anakin thought he was, well, hearing voices, which he was. And Yoda overheard this exchange. He was forced eavesdropping. But at that time, he didn't understand what was happening either. So later in the third season of Clone Wars, Quigan's ghost appears to Obi-Wan and also Anakin in another mystical place called Mortis that amplifies the force. I love mortis. And improves the force ghost reception.

So he and Obi-Wan- It's like the tinfoil on the top of the force antenna. Right. You knock the top of the TV, like the Fons or something. Yeah, yeah. It comes in clear all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah. So he and Obi-Wan chat about the chosen one for a while,

but then Obi-Wan later comes to believe that this was all an illusion. So some time goes by, Anakin falls to the dark side, and Quigon's like, okay, I've got to get serious here. The audio-only approach isn't cutting it. So he dedicates himself to Force Ghost practice, partly so he can keep Obi-1 company on Tatween. So as I mentioned earlier, he reveals himself to Yoda. He guides Yoda to DeGaba, where Yoda's like, hey, can you see the future?

And Quigon says, sorry, I exist in a place where there's no future or past. So Yoda says, okay, can you at least tell me who the secret Sith Lord is? That would be a huge help. And Quigon's like, can't help you out there either. But I can take you to the Force planet. So he does that. And at the Force Planet, Yoda qualifies for the Force Ghost upgrade himself. Oh, nice.

Yeah. Yoda 2.0. Love it. Okay. So then in Revenge of the Sith, he tells Obi-Wan that somehow Quigon has returned, not in quite those words, and that he will teach him to commune with him, though obviously he takes his sweet time doing that. From the Asoka novel, we know that Obi-Wan hears Quigon when he visits Schmee-Skoyer's grave shortly after getting to Tatween. But obviously, Obi-Wan can't pick up the signal that clearly. Who knows, next week? Could it be? Maybe. I will say this. If we don't get the Quigon encounter we want next week, which would be a travesty.

Everyone should track down the Claudia Gray short story, Master and Apprentice. In the canonical book from a certain point of view, it takes place right before a new hope. And Obi-Wan and Quigon have exactly the conversation that I think we want them to have in the series, to the point that if they do have a heart-to-heart in the finale, it would be weird. that they then repeat that exchange in the short story nine years later without one of them being like, yeah, we talked about this before. But I will let that slide if they give us Quigon. But by then, by episode four, essentially, Quigon's got the ghost thing down. And Obi-Wan says, you're very nearly corporeal. I've never seen you appear like this.

He's basically like, hey, have you been working out? And Quigon, still sounding high, answers, it is a matter of learning to both claim the physical world and detach oneself from it. Easier said than done. This is my first question to you. And it's when we were like, when we decided you're going to do this segment, I was like, are forced ghost corporeal, right? Because this is always my question about ghosts.

I learned that from, yes. Are they corporeal? Because I learned that from Buffy. But like, so they can sit on. So, Obi-Wan Kenobi can sit on a log, right? Quigon can, like, move candles and Yoda around. Right. But can they be as corporeal as, say, like,

Luke Skyworker was when he projected himself onto crate? Yeah. It didn't make footprints, but did engage in a lightsaber battle. Maybe more so. We will get to that in a second. Okay, sorry. No, please. I welcome questions.

So, Obi-Wan learns the technique from Quigon pretty quickly, apparently. Anakin doesn't really learn it from anyone. He's just talented and intuitive like that. Hashtag blessed, yes. Yeah. Star Wars.com says his selfless sacrifice allowed his spirit to be preserved in the force by his former mentors, Obi-Wan and Yoda. So I guess we can go with that. But we don't know exactly how Luke and Leah learn it. Maybe Luke learns from Yoda or Obi-Wan or his sacred texts and teaches it to Leah. But it sort of seems like the sky's, The Skywalker's just get the Force Ghost VIP package that can just kind of cut the line. It is the Skywalker's saga, after all. Yeah, somehow. The Skywalker's became Force ghosts. Maybe the Middiclorians are just like, oh, Skywalker, you say.

Well, I'll come right this way. But not you, Ben Solo. No. So the last two things to know are this, and this is what you were getting at. So first, the sequel trilogy took some creative licenses and liberties with force powers in general. and also the established big-screen limitations of Force Ghosts. So it actually did make them more powerful than we could possibly imagine. We could imagine something more powerful than Obi-Wan telling Luke to turn off his targeting computer,

but they really level up for the sequel trilogy. So in The Last Jedi, you have Yoda as a Force Ghost calling down lightning to strike a tree and start a fire. And then in The Rise of Skywalker, you also have Luke's Force Ghosts, grabbing Ray's lightsaber and raising his ex-wing out of the water. So they can seemingly interact pretty well with the physical world. And also in Rise of Skywalker, you have a whole lot of Jedi who, as far as we know, don't have Force Ghost privileges giving Ray a pep talk during the final battle with Palpatine. Well, Quiguan just patched them into the conference call. Sure. He's like, please hold. Let me access. It could be. Everyone else. So who does.

knows. All bets are off at this point. Maybe the Force Ghost can just fight for themselves now, or maybe Obi-1 can come back in body outside of Mal's dreams and fantasies. We have no idea what's possible here. Oh, my God, I forgot. Okay, I don't have access to it right now, but I forgot, I'll bring it for the finale. Mollary Rubin sent me a full-size cardboard cut out of Obi-1. After I got COVID. He'll be on the Zoom call next week. That does not surprise me at all. He's bigger than my Cobbant. It's a proportion issue.

So the last thing, I did promise to be fair and balanced, give equal time to the darksider. So I will note that they can kind of stick around too. They just have to bind their spirits to some sort of object, like a holocron or a mask, or they can do some knight sister stuff. You're talking like hornyck-crug stuff here? It sounds like you're talking horridged stuff here. Pretty much.

The night sisters have their ways to, talk to or appear to or possess people, or you can just do the palpatine and transfer your soul into a nice, ripe, clone body until you run out of them. So they have their methods. So in conclusion, I know that Anakin was the one who had the virgin birth and sacrificed himself and brought balance to the force until J.J. Abrams unbalanced it. But Quigon has a pretty good case as the Jedi Jesus here, he is the one who made it possible for everyone else to get on the ghost train and enjoy eternal life. So if we don't get a glimpse of him in the finale, or at least a new voiceover, I will myself wink out of existence and become a force ghost.

Do you think Quaghan is like the Jedi John the Baptist, maybe? I was thinking of that too. Okay. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. He dies for everyone's in seemingly so they can all access eternal life too. But if I am a forced ghost next week, fortunately that would not prevent me from podcasting, I don't think. So one way or another, I hope to be back then. Thank you, Ben. Remarkable stuff from you today, Ben. My pleasure, as always. Par for the course. Classic, Ben. You're the best. Get some rest. Thank you. I will try. Forever sleep. All right, Joe.

you are corporeal so you can reach your hand into the Dune Sea and pull out the Easter egg of your choosing. We've talked about a bunch already. Do you have a favorite Easter egg or reference? One that we've mentioned already, one that we haven't. I'll just pick one we haven't mentioned already, which is that Roken, a character that I wish we knew more about, does use a bowcaster and that at least is fun.

So the bocaster for Roken. What about you? That was honestly probably my pick too because I love that. of ones we haven't mentioned. I guess it was fun to see Corrin and his mom again, you know, from the Haja escape plot of episode two. We talked in that pod about who Corrin might potentially be pulling in from the wide, wide, larger canon.

So that was fun to know that Corin's still there and could appear again in the future. You know, I'll go actually with the translated Arabesh. There is no death from the Jedi Code, that wall etching. That was great to see, that little snippet of the Jedi Code. Yeah, that's my pick. Sorry, Corinne, you got bumped. Secret Scroll. I already said mine is bail.

It's the only explanation I can hold on to for his absolutely uncharacteristic and bizarre behavior. What about you? I'm going to give it to the ghost of Wade, which hung over this episode in California. a real long shout out. So shout out. So shout out to Wade and his enduring legacy. It was great to see Wade

in the previously on, you know, and really remember our time with him. And like to see everyone reflecting on Wade and how much he meant to them. Yeah. Wade.

Okay. And with that, it's mailbag time. Jomi. I promise that I will have a better performance than Riva against Darth Vader

and Jason Tatum against the Warriors. I promise. I promise I'll be good. Oh, God. Our first question comes from Mikal. Shout out to the homie. Is a season two a good idea?

And has that amazing flashback sequence changed your thought process? I was a hard no. Saving Leia seemed the singular good reason he could have to leave Tatooine. But if they tell smaller sand stories with added flashback content, maybe?

I'll add that when I say I was a hard no. My head said no, but my heart screamed, yes. So I might be grasping for chances here. So there are strong rumors that they are doing a season two, mostly because the numbers are so good. Show me some face immediately. It was like, no, thank you. But I think that the problem, here's the issue.

I'm not vehemently opposed to it. I just don't think you can involve Leah or Luke or Vader and that narrow, like, that makes it a different show. Like, I don't think you can do Vader. You can do Anakin flashbacks, but I don't think Vader and Obi-1 can continuously clash all the way up through a new hope. What do you think, Mallory?

Yeah, it's tricky because, of course, my answer is yes, I want to keep watching an Obi-1 show. But then I wish it had been envisioned that way from the jump because then it could have been, maybe some of the Vader could. have been parceled out. I don't know. I mean, it's such a long swath of time that there are, you know, I like the phrasing here of telling smaller sand stories. Like that could be really fun. But then, yeah, it's like this whole thing that we've been talking about all season of like if Vader's the measuring stick for every other aspect in the story,

will anything else kind of live up to that. But I think I'll, unless the finale is like such a disappointment that it really changes my feeling about the entire. entire season. Always in play. I hope not. Always in play. I will say right now I'm in camp. Yes, I'm looking forward to season two. I'm sure that will shock everyone to hear. No, I think it's, I think it's possible. It's just tricky. Tricky or even than this is, I think. Force ghost training. Take me back to the meat slicing factory and time with my beautiful Iope. Give me at long last the Satine flashbacks that I've been waiting for.

Obie after dark, season two. Let's do it. We need to see how you know, Obi-Wan trained so hard that he killed mall and three moves.

Like that's what we, that's what we got to get up to. That's what the people need. So I'm here. Give me season two. You know, sign me up for all these sand stories. I'm here.

We got a similar question from, Joe, you guys are in charge of making a spinoff show of any character from the Kenobi series. Which route are you going? What's the storyline happening in the show? What format? Is it a movie, live action, etc., etc.? Joe is going with the animated Clone War-style Vader series based on the comics,

and he wants to introduce Star Killer. I mean, that would be great. I would love to see that. Animated Vader is a consistent delight when we've gotten it so far in the television shows and the comics are awesome, so adapting those would be really fun. I'm going to pitch a spinoff about the Grand Inquisitor, and we get to see him pursuing a young force-sensitive named Ezra. No, I'm kidding.

You guys remember rebels? I think that my answer here has to be something about Tala, because she's like the character who we don't know a ton about, who I'm really eager to spend more time with, I think. That's probably my answer, but I don't know now when that would be set, I guess. I guess it could be set like five, in the five years before this or something like that. Like her doing rebel shit. Yeah.

All of her missions inside of the empire to thwart the empire. Like basically, rebel spoiler here, like back half of rebels callous kind of stuff, you know, like after the awakening when you're actively fighting to take down your, your imperial overlords and align where you can with the budding rebellion around you. But the Tala arc would be much earlier. I was thinking of like Tala but make it alias, right? The TV show Haleas, which involves a lot of wigs and a lot of accents and a lot of infiltrating.

Incredible. And that's all I could possibly want from that. But also I do think one of the most successful aspects I think most people agree of this Obi-1 thing is the Vader stuff. So I think an animated Vader, sure, but like, give us more live action Vader. All the live action, a lot of the live action vaders have been. Maybe that will be season two of Obi-Wan Kenobi, colon, Vader's turn. It's time to shine.

Darth Vader, colon, Dark Lord of the Sith. What do you think, Jomey? I mean, this is very clear. I mean, if you listen to the show, you know I'm rocked with. I need a trilogy. I need a live-action film trilogy. What has Wade been up to? It's got to be the Wade's been off.

What's Wade doing? How did Wade get there? You know? And it's like and or like it ends right as Wade hops in the plane. Like that's where. Well, it's a prequel series. How did Wade get there? I mean, what was Wade up to before then, though?

The one thing we know about Wade is he's like part of the, we're not soldiers. So what you're saying is there's a blank canvas to be explored. This was the first time Wade did a thing now. I don't want to besmirate. Wade's legacy. Maybe it's just trash hauler Wade. Yeah. Like Wade hauling trash.

T-47 sewage removal. Yeah. Men at work. Men at work, but make it Wade. Wade at work. Every movie's 100, 150 minutes long. That's Ryan Johnson's trilogy right there. I solved it.

I solved it. Look at me. I'm a problem solver. Kathleen Kennedy, hit my line. I'm here. All right. last question comes from Anna. I saw a TikTok

with Assoca's entrance on Mandelor paired with holding out for a hero. Which song a la Guardians of the Galaxy would have been the perfect needle drop for the Vader fight with Riva? So my first instinct was to go with a loser

by Beck for Riva. But I actually think I want some ACDC. So it's either some Tony Stark energy here. It's either Thunderstock where it's back in black,

which is the Tony Stark special. So, yeah. Back in black for a Vader fight. Also, I do want to say, I forgot to mention this earlier, but on one of the videos and I can't remember which I apologize that I watched this week,

someone pointed out the fact that in the original trilogy, because all the lightsaber stuff was done post with rotoscoping, that the sabers never lit, up Vader's helmet. And it wasn't even fixed,

quote unquote, in the specialized edition. But how cool it is in both Rogue One and in this to see the Red Sabre sort of gleam off of Vader's helmet. And I completely agree. So badass. I, as usual with our musical questions, have no answer here.

This is not my strength. I don't know. But I love the idea. And I'll say that because I love the needle drops in the MCU. And I'm into the idea of bringing more to Star Wars, though it also feels like sacrilegious in a way because the score is such a sacred part of the Star Wars experience.

So I don't want to take us away from that too often. I don't know. It's more like a, it's more like fan edit energy. Like there, I've seen so many good edits of the Ray and Kylo Throne Room fight. Like there have been so many good songs laid on top of that. Holding out for a hero is a huge one. Immigrant song is one that people like to put on a fan edit, stuff like that. I mean, we actually got holding out for a hero in Loki, you know?

Yeah. That became actual text there. Well, you two are our TikTok experts. You two love TikTok, so you're the two to answer this. Jomi, what do you think? That's a great question. Speaking of TikTok, you can follow the Ring ofverse on TikTok at Ringaverse. Just a little plug right there.

I literally spent minutes ooing and awing at the various colors of Jody's Lysa, Jomi's Lysaver earlier before we started recording. He was like, at this one? And this one? It's so cool. That's fun. I mean, for me, it's really simple. Like, she got packed up.

We even got packed out of the way. I don't think we've ever seen in Star Wars live action before. So I need Tupac hit them up. You understand what I'm saying? I need Nas. I need Nas ether. And I need the beats. I need Drake back to back.

You understand what I'm saying? I just need something that lets you know like, oh, this is right here. This is beef. But it's really one-sided. Like you losing right now. That's what I need. That's, I would have loved to see that. I don't know.

You know, if Star Wars got a bag that deep, you know, they're hitting like, A, Nas, can we get, can we get your sound? But I would love that. Man's make that happen. It's beautiful. I love it. I love it. That's content right there.

That's special. Do we do it? That's it. We made a podcast. We did it. That's a pod. Your rage was useful. Now it's tiresome.

He delivered that line really well. Let's just give Rupert friend his dude. It was good to see Ruber back. It would have been sad if he hadn't returned, despite everything to be said earlier about the. The inexplicable nature of it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you to our Jedi Masters,

Steve Allman, for senior producer in this episode, Arjuna Ram Gapal, for his additional production work on this episode, and Jomi Adoneron, for his work on the social for this episode. And, of course, to Force Ghost Limburg for just a shocking performance today.

What a treat that was? Running on fumes, Ben, is maybe my favorite. Legendary show. going. Please tune back in next week for our Obi-1 Canobi finale instant reaction in deep dive pods, Wednesday and Friday, as well as our coverage of light year, mint edition, Sunday, The Boys, House of Midnight, Monday, Miss Marvel, Joe and Co. On Miss Marvel on Thursday and more. Till then, remember, pod will fade, but is never forgotten. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari.

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