House of R - 'Oppenheimer' With Sean Fennessey | Nolan Revisited

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

Mal and Jo sit down with Ringer guest Sean Fennessey! They discuss the special Orioles moment for Mal and Jo this past weekend, go into a general discussion about 'Oppenheimer' to prime up the conversation, and then proceed to dive into each of their 15 superlative picks for the film.(00:00) Intro(13:29) Oppenheimer revisited(1:00:10) SuperlativesHosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to House of Art. I'm Joyner Robinson. That's the beautiful luminous Malia Rubin. Joining us today, it is the man, the icon himself. The atomic bomb of cinematic discourse of Sean Fantasy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. Thank you for being here for our long-awaited out-of-order Othaheimer podcast. Meta, non-linear storytelling here on House of Our. Yes. This has been much like the launch of the bomb rescheduled at least three times, but we're going to make it happen today. Yeah, due to rain and a number of other things. Okay, so we are going to get to a lengthy, healthy discussion and close our Nolan rewatch. Right. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters.

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what do we want to tell folks about what's coming up? Well, we're continuing to cover lanterns to show that we're quite enjoying, so those pods will be dropping on Mondays, those deep dives. You picked lanterns in the house of our hype draft. Good for you. Yeah.

The show's great. Watch the premiere. Enjoyed it. Didn't see episode two. Okay. Into it? I will continue to watch. watch it. Have you ever seen a more handsome person than Hal Jordan in specifically HBO's

lanterns? I mean, I know he's a long time paramour of yours. I wish. God. I like the man. I think he's handsome. I aspire to such rugged but but but unfussy masculinity. I'll never quite get there, but it'd be nice if I could just put on like a sway jacket. I kind of like your fussy masculinity. Thank you. Many people are calling it that. It's pretty good. In addition to lanterns, next week, I believe, the second podcast is Buffy Season 5, Part 1. At long last, we will be resuming our Buffy rewatch. So that's a thrill. That's exciting. I can't wait for that. I've seen Full for Love, so my life is forever altered. We did do our look ahead for the rest of the year at the live show in Baltimore. And there's a lot of great coming. Wildwood made it very high on my hype list for this fall. I was invited to a screening and I dropped your name and I said, Joanna Robinson will need to see this film with me.

They said, great. I'll let you know about that after the recording. Okay, I like it. Sean. Yes, wait, hold on. We're not going to blow past our trip to Baltimore. So I'm not spoken to either of you since you traversed the baseball stadium and one of you through a first pitch.

Yes, you did. And I left you an Instagram comment, but we're going to talk about it in person. Is that what we've come to? We've known each other for an instant. I knew we would be face to face. And that's how I want to have this conversation. Okay. Tell me. Okay. I'm still only seen the first pitch from the angle that the Orioles shared on Instagram. Which is to say, I did not see home plate. Yeah. Oh yeah. So what, how did it go? What happened? And you know what they told us is they don't usually shoot how it connects. Just to, you know, keep people guessing. That's the standard. Though I think that was that was edited by our beloved Jomi, I think. Oh, okay. You know, with tasting care. Unlike Danny Highfits, who just posted the whole. thing on his Instagram. Is that true? Yes. You can see the Hyfus cut.

Hyphitz was an angel throughout the whole night and then I was like, damn, man, you really put me on blast here. You know, the experience was wonderful. The pitch itself, it was, it will be better next time when I'm invited back to do it again. When would that be? Next year. We're campaign-in-hards. A house of our night at Oriel Park at Camden Yards, an annual tradition. We'll see if anybody on the receiving end of that is interesting. They nodded enthusiastically when we mentioned it. Maybe that was them like being like to go home. There was passion in the room in real time.

Yeah. I spent, you know, we like to prep here at the podcast. So I would not say that I prepped the way I wanted to, which would have been every day for six months. I feel if I had done that, I would have been really dialed in exactly where I needed to be. Because as you know, it's not just about building up arm strength. It's about mechanics, consistency of release point. That's absolutely right. Release point, yeah.

It started to practice just like a couple, like a week and a half, a couple weeks before. And it was just enough to, enough time to tell me. I had left enough time for it. And when I would, Adam went to the park with me, it was lovely. It was actually really fun. What park did you go to? I'm not going to reveal the park nearest to my home and a public podcast. Sorry.

You know, I've got secrets to keep. I didn't realize you were such a star. I know you're throwing out first pictures, but cheese. I'll wait until I post the behind the scenes photos on Instagram and then people can very easily identify it if they care, right next to your comments. We should, we should create a ringer-esque gawker stalker, but just for parks. It's a good idea. It's a good idea, because we're all famously out and about.

Yeah. Well, those of us, children have to go all the time, unfortunately. Please put your children on a gawker-stocker. Sean and Bill and I learned on the About Last Night rewatchables just mere days ago that there is apparently a robust, thriving, booming, ringer, intramural sports experience that none of us have been invited to participate in. They've got, we've had a basketball team.

Oh, yeah, I know about this. Have you been invited to play? No, why would anybody invite me? I'm not fun. Why would anybody invite me to do anything? I thought you were going to say you're not up letting. Thank you, Joe. Yeah.

But I don't know what the fussy, masculine, and any of the energy you want to bring to intramural sports. I think you'd be great. Well, for years I did play on the intramural basketball team here at the ringer, and then I retired. I remember the back pain, the lower back name. It was very hard on my body. That was a tough moment.

Playing with 25-year-olds was a mistake. But that's just also because I'm getting old. So the quick answer to the how did the actual pitch go? I was very worried as Joe and all of the bad babies who joined us at this wonderful event at Oriole Park at Camden Yards because we did the pregame live pod at the warehouse. Yes. Incredible experience. We went down on the field.

We got to take pictures. Incredible experience. Did the pitch, incredible experience. You know Steve Bezlo, my dear friend. Yes. I could hear the bad babies cheering. I knew Adam had sort of vowed to take my parents into a place where they would be able to see both the field and the Jumbo Tron. And Joe was right there on the field.

But I wasn't expecting I turned around. And my beloved Steve, one of my best friends in the world, was just had made his way down behind home plate and was right there. And I got all weepy. And it was just very, like, wonderful and emotional and surreal and great. Got out there. I had been really nervous in the run up because every time Adam and I went to practice, the first throw, No matter how many times we did it, not enough times, but no matter how many times, always a spike 10 feet in front of me to the left every time. Because I was trying for extra distance and would, you know, so I'm like, all right, don't spike the ball. I told the room at the live pipe. And you get a couple warm-up throws in, you're fine, but the first throw always a mess. I overcompensated, released early and because I was so anxious about holding late. But I cleared that, I had the distance to reach the place. And that was, that to me was the most important thing. Didn't spike it, didn't come up short, but why? Wide right.

Yeah. Wide right. Okay. Yeah. So if it were right-handed hitter. It would have been behind him and they would have thought that I like tried to hit him in the spine but but missed. Okay. She did connect on all of her warm.

I did. I requested to warm up on the sideline before. I saw that. I don't want to say this then, but I had a sinking feeling because you know the like the rule of show businesses like if your dress rehearsal is great. Sure. The like. Oh, no. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, no. It was close enough to it. You got to try to get the arm a little limber. It was a very humid day. I cried. I cried. Were you nervous for her beforehand? No, I was just excited.

She was incredibly supportive. Mallory had laid enough track that she was like, you guys are so beautiful. Well, Mallory was just sort of like. Very deep and meaningful bond. She was like, I'm just going to spike it. Like, she was really prepared to just spike it into the dirt. The spike felt to me like a guarantee. So she wasn't like nervous about whether or not she was going to make it.

She had like come up with a whole routine of what she was going to do. Shook off the catcher twice. Yeah. Then, you know, did her little challenge. Did her little challenge. Did an amiest challenge. She plowed that. Did your hop over the foul line.

Did the hop over the thing? Yeah. A CR-approved bit, which is how I knew it was worth trying. So I knew she had a whole routine plan and I was just, I just got emotional. You did. It was incredibly sweet. She was like walked out there. Yeah.

And then I walked into your arms. And they like said her name over the announcer and you could see her on the jumbo cron. They like, she said my high school. It was really fun. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was great. It was really sweet. It was lovely.

And Jimmy and I were just sitting there and I just started crying. It was really, really sweet. It was really wonderful. It was a very cool day for my family. They were super hyped. My dad was just like over the moon. Also, Joe got to meet my family. She got to meet some of my best friends.

It was amazing. And then because people who had bought, this was a really cool event. People had bought tickets to the live show. We all had like a dedicated section in center field. So we spent the whole game meeting the listeners, meeting the viewers and hanging out with them. You know, I didn't see a pitch of the game.

The Orioles got their asses kicked lamentably by the Yankees. However, they bounced back and then took the next couple from the race. So did they? Yeah, they did. didn't you see it at pitch of the game? Because we were just hanging with the bad babies the whole time. We were just, we were in a throng of the bad baby community out in the while. It's a wonderful thing to get to experience. And then people are making line friends. They're meeting each other. It's like fun for us to meet them, but fun to watch them meet each other. You know. I mean, it's just a delight. It's great. It was a wonderful experience. And we're looking forward to House of Our Night in Camden Yards in 2020. And you were interviewed by Kevin Brown. Yeah. And he hopped on the podcast, too. He hopped on at the very end. It sounded like he He fangirled out a little bit

Well, Kevin is a big fan of The R He's a fan of House of R He's a Sean Fantasy He's a big big fan, super fan And so while I would consider Kevin, he's super talented He's amazing While I would consider Kevin

An actual genuine friend Like one of my dear friends Someone I adore You know I know that our friendship It's just a plot to get to you Eventually And I'm okay with it I'm available

His dream in life is to participate In a big picture movie draft His dream in life. Baltimore movies, are there enough? You know, I've been plotting a baseball movie draft. Let's do it. I'm inviting myself as well. Well, you were on the list.

You were on the invitation list. Well, Durham number one. Me too, like number one. No spoilers. Well, now that you're all in. Baseball movie. I do love it. Are you adopting the Orioles?

Have you considered that? She has a custom jersey now. I do. Oh, I think I saw that. Here's my hope is that if we make this an annual tradition, we get to start collecting because they put 26 on the back for the year. And we get 27. 28.

Exactly. Like one every year. Wow. We need to be invited on a city connect night so that we can get the custom City Connect this year.

I'm not familiar with them but I reject City Connect on the premise. I'm just not a fan. I've seen the Met City Connect so I bet. They're pretty rough. Yeah.

Let me ask you this. Why didn't you respond to my text where I sent you Pete Alonzo's Player Weekend Bat, which had a Maryland crab, blue crab, and it was all about

the eastern shore and just being in love with Maryland in Baltimore and this new community. I sent it to you, you did not reply. Why? My enthusiasm for your experience only extends so far. I'm happy you had this wonderful day that you got to experience it with Joanna. So your family got to be there. Pete Alonzo was a member of my family for many years. There were a couple people in Metzger. And I was like, why are you wearing Metzgear? And then I heard about the whole Pete thing. Yeah.

It's not Pete's fault. No, he's wonderful. He should have been retained. No, I just heard that it might be a note of sensitivity. Metz fans. I do feel bad for Metz fans. I feel happy to have Pete in my life. He's wonderful. He has 30 home runs. It's great. I mean, the main point is that... That's what he does every year. The main point is that I understood your Instagram comment when you left it. There you go. Yeah.

I know. Now you're in the loop on baseball law. He did not embrace me to answer your Instagram question, but he's embraced the city of Baltimore in the state of Maryland. And then his wife throughout the pitch a couple days later. No kidding. He caught that pitch. She seems like a nice gal too.

What's her name? Wonderful family. That's something like that. Remember your family, but you don't know the wife? All right. Oh, man. Speaking of great men and their wives that are also here. about Oppenheimer.

Spoiler for history, I suppose. Indeed. This is the last of our Nolan movies, so all Nolan movies are on the table, including The Odyssey, which we have all seen. I would say if we want to make reference to The Odyssey,

and you haven't seen The Odyssey yet, you should know the story of The Odyssey, but we might talk about it. This film was directed and written by Christopher Nolan, came out July 21st, 2021, 2023. Budget 100 million worldwide box office, 976.7 million, nearly a billion dollars, an incredible outrageous achievement, a pile of

Oscars, just the film of that year, undoubtedly. She said with some resignation. No, you know what? And I told you this already. Every time I rewatch this movie, I like it more. It's nice to hear. You say it like I'm doing it for you. That's what you said last time.

I'm on this movie's corner. You know, I'm a fan. I'm a big fan. When will you show the same grace to inception, you know? I'm certainly giving it a lot of looks. Yeah. I've tried to evolve my thoughts. Because we were supposed to do this a while ago, I did all my prep then.

And then I, you know, I rewatched it a couple times the last two days also to remind myself because my memory is bad. And again, every single time I rewatch it, I admire it more. I think there is a lot. There's obviously so much going on here. But it is an undeniable achievement. and it is so rich with ideas and, you know, like intellectually dense that every time I watch it, I discover something else. And every time I like read an in-depth essay about it, I enjoy that experience. But I think I do still admire it more than I love it because I don't feel sort of like emotionally moved by it.

I feel intellectually stimulated by it. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that's just sort of where I land with it. Sean Fentany. Tell me about your love of Oppenheimer I think that's a completely reasonable opinion and I wouldn't want to take it away from anybody.

I don't I don't I'm not well I mean don't dare me I think they'll listen to a profit it's interesting that you frame it that way because I don't know

that I really have thought about the film in that dynamic though that's a very common dynamic that people have with movies which is sort of like did this movie work for me personally on an emotional level and also is it successful in what is attempting to try to do. I don't find Chris Nolan to be a terribly emotional filmmaker. I would say The Odyssey is a pretty big breakthrough in that respect for me with his movies.

I find him to be extremely structurally interesting. I think he's capable of great depth and imagination. But I find a lot of the emotional mechanics of his movies to be like a little tight and British. And so this movie to me is kind of a fascinating breakthrough in that I feel like he's really trying to reckon with something that has recurred in all of his movies, and he kind of breaks through on that thing, which is this idea of sort of like, you know, we spend so much time figuring out if we could, we didn't think to ask if we should. And that's a hard line through all the movies, you know, it's, you know, go all going. The prestige, that's what it's about. The prestige

is about that. You know, this guy who sort of stumbles into a world of intrigue and doesn't really think about the consequences of that. Memento is about the inability to see what the consequences of your actions are because of something that is sort of blocking your ability to see it. Insomnia should we get room darkening shades? Exactly. All of these, but specifically like I can't sleep. You know, I'm not able to sleep and it is causing my mind to worry.

Like digging, you know, you quote a Dressa Park, love to see it. Digging too greedily and too deep. That's like what a lot of this stuff is about. Mallory, what was your journey through these rewatches of Oppenheimer? And anything you want to weigh in on that sort of. of like emotional versus, we've talked about this about like the chilliness of Nolan for some people. Where do you land on that after this Oppenheimer revisitation? Yeah, I mean, you know, I love the, I love the filmography.

I love Nolan's movies, as we've talked about now over the course of a year plus, which has been such a joy, you know, to go through slowly and non-sequentially out of order all of his movies. And it's fun because it started very authentically with like the Batman begins in Inception anniversaries last year. And there's the idea of like, you know, then we'll do the prestige because we want to and should we keep going? And it has felt weirdly meta and apt,

albeit genuinely unintentional to take them in this order and in this way. And I think, you know, Joe, this was maybe how we justified it to ourselves in real time. But it actually does feel kind of nice to look back at Oppenheimer after the Odyssey, given what a massive achievement and culmination, you know, of so many of those core areas of emphasis, the focus and through lines across the entire filmography the Odyssey felt like and to then study Oppenheimer. You could have done this in an anticipatory fashion, but given the ending of the Odyssey in particular and how much of it is about legacy and guilt and shame and interrogating the great man idea that is so central to so much of Nolan's, you know, preoccupation in his work, this actually feels like a nice way to do it and to look back. And also because it was the big awards, you know, breakthrough and Darling and the Odyssey until Dune 3 comes in and just that's the only thing we're all talking about, you know.

It feels like it has a chance to really dominate the discussion as well. You're not an Elsinore truther? There's still time. Okay. Give it time. Who knows? I think I'll be seeing it pretty soon. I'll let you know.

When we did our... So I didn't... I've said this before, but I didn't participate in real time at the theater in Barbenheimer and the Barbenheimer extravaganza. Halo had a surgery that weekend. We were watching him for like multiple weeks after that. By that time, I was like, I'll just watch this movie at home. So I actually never saw Oppenheimer in a movie theater.

which is like not ideal, obviously. I think I saw it like four times. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I, and now certainly I think in the last year, I've shifted a little bit out of my, we have a big TV and nice speakers and room darkening shades. Like, I can watch movies comfortably at home and to, boy, it's really great to be back at the movie theater with my friends. You know, I think after the like 2020, 2020, 20, 20, 20, 22, anxiety has like abated a little

bit. So I have not seen this movie in that setting. When I watched it for the first time, it had, it was months into, you know, not only the Barbenheimer cultural zeitgeist animating moment of this real unique

shared experience but people talking about Oppenheimer like it was this incredible achievement and I don't think that was the ideal way to go into seeing it

I quite admired it and respected it and I think when I saw it the first time I really appreciated and liked the first two hours but was like pretty baffled

by the third act relying and resting so heavily on the Straws trial nothing about that opinion has changed, no matter how many times I've revisited it. I still find the balance of the film and how much of the focus.

I understand the logic and rationale behind the choice, and I think that in terms of the portrait of inadequacy and the strivers compared to the people who actually achieve and which of those things is frankly more dangerous in terms of the impact it has on the world, I understand all of the reasons to structure the film that way and balance the story that way. It's just like not as interesting when you shift into that stretch at the end because the first two hours are so riveting and gobsmacking. Rewatching it multiple times this last year, I have found myself so swept up in the first two hours of it.

Like, I think the first two hours of this movie are among the great achievements in the Nolan filmography. I, when we did our, when Joe and I did our rankings a few weeks ago, I had it at six. And like the thing about the Nolan ranking, you're going through 13 movies, they're all good. Like, they're all good to some extent. And through for me, 10, I think through 10, I was like, I actually really like all of these movies. You know, there's a degree of love for them. I would generally agree with that. I mean, you know, Dark Friday Rise has some flaws.

Yeah, but it also has Bain and he fucking rules. I love Bain. He fucking rules. It's funny, like this criticism that you just shared, which I think you share, and I know Amanda shares because she brings it up every time we talk about Oppenheimer on the third act is one of those things where I'm like for the big spectacle movies we tend to handwave like a lot of the flaws where we're like yeah but this movie has Bain it's a fun Batman movie but for whatever reason like the hang up I think with Oppenheimer among some of it's if not detractors people who have notes for it it's a very similar kind of

note that I think you could have for almost all of his movies which is perceptionally there is some kind of like structural flaw where he's like reached too far like he has done this incredible thing. Well, you know, there's something to that, I think, you know, that he's really interested in these really ambitious people that really reach for something beyond themselves, much like Batman. And so this is the rare case, I think, where maybe that hang up doesn't bother me because I'm very, very interested in the core idea that creates the friction between the three acts and the two story structures, between the Straws structure and between the Almer structure. And that idea is very simple, which is you mentioned the idea of this driver and this idea of

ambition, and there's two strains of ambition. One is for power. and one is for ideas. And sometimes ideas start reaching towards power. And whenever power starts reaching towards ideas, that's when we get a mess of a world. And he seemed to be genuinely interested in the mess of the world, like kind of what happened. That seemed to animate his interest in telling the story. I just love that idea. I think that's pretty sophisticated. And maybe it doesn't make the movie as fun in the final hour, but it's a, it's, I thought it was pretty deep. No, absolutely. I think it's incredibly deep. You know, his, you know, most repeated inspiration that I saw was Amadeus, obviously,

one of my favorite movies of all time, and a structure that always works for me. And Prestige also has a lot of Amadeus DNA in it, but it is like a more evenly balanced. And Amadeus, it is in many ways a Salieri movie, actually. And this, in sort of chasing that Amadeus energy, I think the straw stuff is so much weaker in a way that makes it feel unbalanced.

I also, this is just like not my favorite downy, performance. And also, unfortunately, for my guy Alden, Aaron Reich, he is just saddled with a lot of just saying the thing. One of your biggest critiques of Inception, right? Which is just sort of like, you know, when we try to compliment Tenet, we like to say, you know, he said just like, you know, just feel it. Don't try to understand it, right? And so when he is making his sort of like, and you, this is one of the first things you said when he came out of the Odyssey, where you're talking about the rapid edits and cuts in Odyssey, which is, of course, here as well, this sort of like montage approach, impressionistic, Eisenstein-esque approach to

storytelling. And it works so well. And then you just sort of like grinds to a halt for me a bit when Alden-Aren Reich has to say like, well, so it was you. You know, like he's Raku Paro in the drawing room trying to tell you who did the crime. And that's like, that's like the ideas that you outline, I think are incredible. But the execution. And yeah, I can I can forgive a flaw in a diamond for I think you're absolutely right. And I can't really quibble with it. I think the other major influence, which you guys have cited here, too, is JFK. And that's really more the JFK stream, where JFK is this kind of wild frenzy of ideas.

But whenever the film flashes to black and white, it's attempting to create this kind of heightened docket drama experience. And that's, it's a borrowed style. And so he's attempting to fuse this wild editing impressionistic style that you described, which I love. And I think this, to me, is the pinnacle of that. The first 40 minutes of this movie is... It's so breathtaking. Yeah. And I could tell within the first five minutes that I was going to fall in love with it.

And seeing it, you know, it's so obnoxious, but seeing it on IMAX on the big screen. And hearing Gorinson's score immediately and the raindrops falling and him thinking about that. And that moment when he's sort of thinking about the mechanics of bomb building and throwing the glass and looking at the cubist paintings. And his mind kind of turning around art and science together, I felt like that was a huge step forward. Or he had like kind of, like I said, kind of cracked something. but he also wanted to have this idea about America. And so he's borrowing movies not just about Mozart, but about presidential assassinations. And so in this attempt to kind of create a stew, like he has a better handle on some styles than others.

And I think this idea of like creating a story about America is so successful when you get things like the Gary Oldman scene or what Matt Damon is doing this whole movie, like to all of that stuff. Yeah, all of that stuff really, really works for me. I do like the Alden Aronaranax characters just called Senate Aid, which so for him to get the following the blonde treatment. That's pretty great. It says a lot. What do you think it is, we've been sort of talking around this for a little bit, but like I've been really bumping on his sort of like what I'm calling his ingenue problem. As we have discussed sort of the weaker elements of even the films we love, like say the Ariadne character and Inception, et cetera, et cetera, there is this sort of like type of character. I would say I think Tom Holland is one of the weaker parts of The Odyssey.

It is not have to be gender, but Alden Aaron Reich, I think, again, I love Alden, but the writing for him is really tough in this movie. And so do you have any thoughts about what it is about this archetype that is not very successful in Nolan films? Well, I mean, I think you could make the case that Penelope carries some of that load in The Odyssey as well, where there are long stretches of a movie where they use these characters to allow other characters. to explain to them what's really going on in the story. And so they're meant to seem, one, they're not what Nolan is really best at, which is sort of men and or women, but mostly men of action. You know, people who drive the action of the story. That's something that he really leans into.

He's like a real student of David Lean in that respect, where his protagonists are these sort of like swashbuckling adventurous types. And the counterpoint of that always has to be somebody who's like, oh, tell me more. How does this work, sir? and that's a little bit different from the dead wife problem, but there's a sort of a correlation there

where there's sort of like... Can be a vent diagram. But it's like, let me create these kind of motivating factors and let's also build characters who can help our hero explain what's really happening here. Again, one of the reasons

why I like Tenet, which sort of like is dispensing with that and calling the primary character, the protagonist, instead of a side character, Senate aide, or, you know, a single named woman who doesn't really have any depth.

Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things I so love about Nolan's movies this has been one of the really fun things to talk about in a track, because the films are very distinct from each other, and he plays across different genres, but there are these, this is an aspect of a threat across the tapestry.

And his movies, his style, it's like so utterly specific, right? And there are details and aspects not only of his craft in the way he makes films, but of each story that you're like, this is only inception, it can only be inception, right? I'm an interstellar definitively. But then they're also in tandem with that functioning as fables, right? He is interested to your point from earlier and like through a specific lens of his style, a broad assessment of human nature and human capacity.

And so I think the tendency to put characters like that in the movie is like there's a function to it. You know, the kind of like gentle, useful, innocence of meeting and wanting to understand is that always effectively rendered in the film's like, no. But I understand what leads him to put characters like that in the movie. I get a kick out of you putting telemachus in that category. It makes me laugh. And it is interesting to, you know, we talked about this a little bit on the Odyssey pod. Gee, John Bernthal, tell me about my dad.

Yeah, it was, we talked about this a bit on the Odyssey pod. But like, if you just compare a couple of the most recent Odyssey adaptations, you know, with Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey and then the return, like the Telemachus characters among the most differently and distinctly rendered, right? There's like a violence and a rage to the telemachus and the return that is just like not present in Nolan's version of it. So, yeah, I wonder if that's like a mileage may vary viewer to viewer person, but the fact that it's very consistent in the movies feels purposeful.

I want to go back to sort of how we got here in the first place with Oppenheimer, which is, you know, the story's been told a million times with the fact that Robert Pattinson gave Christopher Nolan a book of Oppenheimer's speeches. after they made Tenet together. Of course, Oppenheimer is mentioned in Tenet. The fact that it started with the speeches. So one of our listeners, Sam, who sends like the best emails, sent me a really, really, really, really incredible, long email

about the speech scene in Oppenheimer, which has like, you know, incredible analysis of it. But it helped me really appreciate in my last rewatch the way in which, you know, the thumping of the feet on the floor, is executed auditorially at these key moments leading up to. So the way in which that sort of impressionistic montage, storytelling leads you to, this is the beating heart core of the story. It could be the Trinity Test if you decide,

but I think most people believe it is this speech scene that he gives after the bombs have been dropped. And I was thinking about it as sort of like, this is the snow fortress. This is what's inside the safe of the snow fortress of Oppenheimer's mind. And it keeps sort of like calling to him throughout as he's sort of explaining things. And then we finally get there and it is so horrific and incredibly technically executed. But I love the idea that like the germ for this movie was because that speech in the, as it exists in the film,

is lifted directly from, you know, the language is what Oppenheimer said. So for Nolan to to have read that speech and then sort of been caught on this idea of like, what could he have been thinking when he said this. And of course, like American Prometheus is, you know, the blueprint for this movie. But just like that that scene coming from that book, given to him by Robert Pattinson and sort of like building sort of how we were talking about with Lantern early this week, like starting with one image and sort of like building out this entire labyrinth from there to get to this thing at the center of the maze. So just to be clear, the one image that the film built from was not the poisoned green apple. Big apple warm.

movie for us because the red apple consumed in full in real time, the green apple with the cyanide injected, sits there untouched for long enough that Opi can pull it away, not commit a murder. Notable. I really didn't think you could surprise me anymore in the fact that you said that instead of Killion Murphy sitting naked in the chair, and you've restrained yourself from mentioning it thus far into the podcast is really impressive. I just feel fairly sure we'll be making that a meme, you know, photoshopping Sean's head onto that image and putting it on our Instagram. Do we have your permission? Do we have your, do

that lien? Do we have your permission to do that? Uh, whatever you want. At this point, I'm out of the memes. You know, Bill love to put your, your face on movie posters for rewatchables. He did. He kind of, he was sort of a, back in the day, a meme innovator. I mean, he literally had a poster view in his office of the, the old pre-COVID days. An imagine TNT series in which I was a, some sort of lawyer, I guess, who was solving cases sitting there in meetings, silently judging. This was a reference to the fact that frequently things were uttered in ringer meetings. And I was like, I'm not sure if that's such a good idea, but I never said that out loud.

But you could tell. But you could tell. It was very disapproving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think in terms of like there was an idea? What do you think is at the core of this movie? Regret within accomplishment. You know, it seems to be the big concept.

The scene that you were just describing is really about that. It's about trying to find a way to communicate that without having Oppenheimer say, what have I done? Without having to, you know, straws. That's such doubt. And Aaron Reich, you know, they get to sort of over-communicate some of the consequences and circumstances. But Oppenheimer, even in a sort of quasi-courtroom function in the film opposite Jason Clark, like isn't actually able to honestly communicate through most of that discussion because he's protecting himself and he's trying to navigate his own.

safety long term. And so there's something really interesting about the kind of the restrained pain that he feels in the almost immediate aftermath. I mean, this is kind of skipping ahead to one of the categories, but my favorite shot in the movie is not of the Trinity test. It's not of, you know, the raindrops falling. It's specifically Oppenheimer being hoisted on men's shoulders after the success of the Trinity test with the American flag waving behind him because there's just like a scintilla of regret on Murphy's face. And, you know, it's such a special performance in this movie. But the movie kind of turns on that specific moment

where it feels like they've accomplished something and then this is where everything is about to go downhill. And it's a brilliant piece of filmmaking. And it's nice that, you know, Nolan can't help but kind of announce his themes and intentions throughout his movies, which I usually bump on. This is a case where like that's not an understated sequence

that you just described, but it's not overstated either. It just is appropriate given the magnanimous. of the story. And it does make the moments, I mean, especially with Oppenheimer's character himself, in part because, you know, as the movie says out loud many times, you know, the most important man who ever lived, like, this is such a consequential thing and you understand that as a viewer, but also just the Killian Murphy performance is exquisite. Like, it's gorgeous. The expression on his face, that shot that you're identifying the hoisted on the shoulders, you know, the fact that we is,

especially this American movie, but sports fans are the world over, you associate that with, like, celebrating the win, and that is the headspace that's, you know, the headspace that's, some people in that moment are occupying, but like it almost feels like over the IMAX lens, there's an x-ray machine, and you can see the twisting of the gut, just because of what he's conveying on his face. So then when you have a moment, like, I really like the Jason Clark performance in this movie quite I love him. And when Roger Rob is like berating him, you know, 200,000 dead at least, yes, any moral scruples about that.

He does say terrible ones, but it's two words. It's not a grand speech in that moment. There is a gentle, quiet delivery, and we have seen the moments that you're both identifying that makes the truth of that even inside of the machinations of what will you do or not do to kind of preserve or protect your reputation. You shook his hand? You know, the way Kitty is talking about the teller, handshake, et cetera, and then the payoff, obviously, at the salmon dinner of not shaking it.

We understand that. We don't need him to say it. So then the moment when he does say it doesn't feel like did you need to say it like some other moments can because we understand it in full and the fact that he is acknowledging it. is the point. Something that really unlocked for me in my latest we watched, which was this morning, was... This is a three-hour movie. Time did you wake up this morning.

We started this spot at 9.30. We did not sleep last night. We had a late friend of the fest 10 o'clock screening. No kidding. Yeah. So we both... How to go? I would say, got to bed at 2 o'clock but didn't go to sleep.

Was it Labrins? It was Labrins. I've never seen the movie. It was great. My first time ever seeing that thing. Oh, I love Labron. Yeah. Wonderful stuff.

Yeah. It was really fun to show. What's good. Ludo, a big Ludo fan. Was Bowie playing in here earlier? Sinked to the... No? No?

But it's nice that you thought that was the case. Would you just feel like Bowie is... Maybe you just had that energy. Oh, yeah. Was he the Goblin King? Don't people usually say I have Bowie Energy? You do have Bowie Energy. Absolutely.

I wish. I wish. Tesla. Something that a layer that really... Bring it back. Nice job. Nice. A layer that really struck me this morning was like,

among the sort of like genuine what have I wrought sort of regret, which, you know, we can chase through all of Nolan's movies. There's also this other fascinating layer inside of this story, which is, you know, in terms of the like calling it the Trinity Test or I've become Death Destroyer of Worlds, the clear God complex that exists for Oppenheimer. And then the moment that the creation and the decision around the creation

is taken out of his hands. Yes. And the bomb is shipped off to Washington. And he's like, should I come? And Damon's like, whatever for? essentially. But, you know, and he, you know, he's repeating to other scientists. It's not up to us.

What should be done? But you can tell that there's like, I feel like the film is trying to say, and this is not a great revelation necessarily. But like, I feel like the film is saying, like, yeah, does he have profound regrets? Yeah, that exists for him. But also, like, maybe how much of this is his ego? And the fact that he got to, like, sort of like, play God, justify the increasingly dangerous steps he was taking. towards his end goal. And then he was not at the end of the day the ultimate decider and what was done with his creation. And so there is this. And then, and so then he becomes, then there is this

hypocrisy inside of his advocacy against the thing he created because he's no longer the one who gets to decide what we do with it. Yeah. And I think it's quite subtle because some of it is that general feeling of loss of control where anytime you've worked hard on something and it's no longer in your hands. I think that's very relatable. Oh, of course. And then there's also something that is of much greater consequence, which is moving from the theoretical to the actual makes things real, you know, and men of science, women of science often live in the theoretical, you know, like I'm married to a mathematician. My father-in-law is a math professor. Like these are, I know a lot of people whose minds are occupied by concepts. Right. Right. And,

but not necessarily like practical executions. Yeah. And so I mean, I'm interested in people like that. I love people like that. But they don't often think specifically about the pragmatic next step. And then Michael Angerano's like, here's a slideshow that shows you exactly the consequences of your actions. Exactly. And like, you know, I think we've all been talking many of our colleagues and fellow podcasters have been talking about like, well, what's next for Nolan?

You know, he's done Obanheimer. He's done the Odyssey. Like what movies he gets? Who's going to interest him and draw his? attention next. And like that specific thing, in the way the movie constantly returns our attention to that idea of like theory can only take you so far and literalizes it, the relationship between like Opia and Lawrence from the word go, right? Nolan is somebody who is interested in big ideas. And we hear across the movie studies, I have them thinking about this for 20 years. Oh, this was

the first story I ever wrote. Oh, I just had to wait until I could return. But you also, so you understand why the theory would interest him, but you also understand why that part of what happens when you go beyond theory for a tactile technician like he is, like somebody who is so not only focused on his craft and expert at it, but like serious about pushing it forward, right, and about thinking about what, what, what, what, what, what do, like, how do you build a team, you know? What happens when Warner Brothers? Who's your cinematographer?

What happens when Warner Brothers gets to decide how your movie is displayed, you know, at home You understand why he's interested in all of that. Exactly. Yeah. This is fascinating. On this sort of, to tie a bow in this idea of the architect of your own misfortune, the what have I wrought concept. You and I were talking about this little bit off pod where this theory coming out of Oppenheimer that people really cherished was this idea that like the central metaphor, the big regret of Christopher Nolan's life that he is reflecting back in Oppenheimer story is. I made Batman Begins, and I brought, you know, the age of the superhero cinema, and that ruined Hollywood, and that's my big regret.

And you and I were both talking about, like, we were talking about, like, we were talking about this, I think right before Spider-Man. And we were like, A, it's a little interesting and it's kind of funny, but we both don't think that is, like, has to be the, that can't be the only answer, especially when he reiterates it again in The Odyssey. I'm like, he's not so torn up about having made Batman that he had to make two massive movies about it. So do you have any theories? It's also just not true. They were making superhero movies before the dark movie. They were, but I don't think you can...

I don't ascribe to this theory. I do not think it is why he has been telling this story. I do think there is a difference of pre-Nolan Batman, and pros-nolan Batman. Definitely changed. I think there was a cold. cultural shift. I think it's amusing conversation fodder.

If the idea crossed his mind, I wouldn't be shocked. It being the primary motivating factor for making a movie about J. Robert Oppenheim? It's a bit of a stretch. I don't know. I think that intellectual dynamic that we're describing here is the thing that is most interesting to him, which is sort of like, well, to quote another superhero with great power comes great responsibility. You know, like there is something in that conceit that keeps drawing him back.

Like, that's in the prestige. That's in Inception, right? That's in Cobb. That's in interstellar with the idea of sort of like taking a great leap towards something. And then we're having that deep regret about having missed your children's lives. You know, so I, you know, what the, I don't know if there's a single answer for why people do things. And I sometimes get caught in the rabbit holes of psychologizing why filmmakers make certain decisions because I'm so interested in the choices that they make. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know Christopher Nolan. I've never met him. I don't talk. I've never talked to him before. Seems to come from an interesting family. I don't know what could possibly be motivating the desire to discover this, but I do think that there's something really interesting in the kind of diad of Dunkirk in this movie,

which is, you know, he's a British American man, and he's told one World War II story through the prism of a sort of British dignity, which has these kind of flashes of vulnerability. You know, speaking of Killian Murphy, his character in that film or some of the, like, emotional outbursts when they're trapped in the ship. But for the most part, that's sort of a stiff, stiff upper lip tribute. And I find... With the lads. Yes.

And I find Oppenheimer to be this like emotional break, like American breakdown. You know, it's sort of like once America comes into that war and the literal megaton power that they bring to world conflict and that they bring to the way that they've kind of shaped the world stage over the last 80, 85 years, I say they is, if I'm not a member of this country. And I'm sure that maybe some personal push and pull. that he feels between those two ideas and that he is very much an American and very much a Brit. And that this world-changing conflict is something that fascinated most people who were born in the 20th century.

How could you not be interested in World War II? So, you know, that's one thing that I think about with him and the fact that he came back to a World War II story so quickly after making Dunkirk is of note to me. Yeah. I think, like, it's interesting, too, to think of Dunkirk and Oppenheimer is on opposite sides of the coin in terms of the individual and the collective and which we're. one is more central and the focus. Like, certainly aspects of Oppenheimer are about the collective, both in terms of like nationhood, but also in terms of like the scientific community or the

political community, any number of things of that nature. You know, the family unit, right, the idea of giving all of the wives the jobs and bringing the families to Los Alamos, etc. But it is so much about Jay Robert. It's called Oppenheimer. Yeah. And it is about this person and his impact on history and his... What's more American than that? The rugged individualist nation. Even, you know, Groves, Damon's character showing up and being like,

the reason I'm here to talk to you is because everybody just had bad things to say about you and I needed to understand that. It's so much about the you they am. Dunkirk is such a... Let's all pull together. Yeah, exactly. And again, there are aspects of that in Oppenheimer

where it's like all of the physicists pulling together to try to solve this problem. can the American physicists who have made their way here, beat the Germans, beat Heisenberg and his crew? But, you know, then you have moments, like, not the famous Einstein Oppenheimer scene that ends the film, but the one shortly before that by the car, you know, and Einstein saying to him, like,

you don't think I understand this? Like, I left my country. Never returned. You serve a country well. If this is the reward she offers you, then perhaps you should turn your back on her. That is, like, quite different from the Dunkirk perspective. It is.

Anything you want to say, Mallory Rubin, about the sexual content of this film? Oh, yeah, I'd be delighted. Okay, great. I just think horny Nolan is really welcome, and I'm glad we got it. You know, the only, I mean, it's this and Carrie Ann Moss spitting in the beer in terms of, like, true moments of morning. The freakiness. Yeah, yeah. The cut from the gene.

Oppenheimer wiggle room flirtation into them fucking tits out. If you've been watching Nolan fans for two decades, it's a real show. It's like, whoa! Wow! And then the fact that we get the now I am become death destroyer of World's quote for the first time, while they're fucking, is just really something memorable. Great stuff. I think that when Robert meets Kitty, you're married to Dr. Harrison, not very.

It's pretty horny inside of an old movie. That's great. That's great. The dual nude armchair. Them sitting, you know, naked, cross-legged, Jean and Oppenheimer in the armchairs. Important to you, emotionally? It became iconic for a reason, I think.

It was funny because, you know, we talked about this a lot when we talked about the Odyssey, the fact that despite the source material involving, you know, Odysseus, like, fucking his way home, it's a very, like, sexless version. of the Odyssey. And so that was fun to think about in terms of coming back to Oppenheimer because I was like, oh, maybe in Oppenheimer he turned a corner.

And he was like, I would like to put more sexual content in my stories for some reason, even though I have not been really doing it before. But that's not the case. And so then you're sort of like, okay, so then why this story? And I think it goes back to what you were outlining this idea of like American power and this idea of, you know, American... greed or war mongering and how that is tied up in sort of like rapacious appetite. And so the fact that like sexual content is part of that and the way in which like

the death of Jean and the dropping of the bomb are like the blood on his hands and in, you know, and connected in the edit very distinctly. And so the way in which like sex and violence are connected makes sense to me why this is the one story that is thus far in his career that he is. decide to put like explicit-ish sexual content. I think appetite, the word you just use is it is perfect. Like there is a hunger. I think there's also just something humanizing about it, genuinely.

Like, is it titillating and salacious when we're in the interrogation room scene and suddenly Florence Pugh is there? You fucking Gene and Oppenheimer are fucking and Kitty is watching it. It's like, I have not seen something quite like this in a Nolan movie. Yeah, of course. But the idea that a character, this actual person in history who is doing this unbelievably consequential thing. And you have other moments in the movie that achieved this.

Like, as they say, you couldn't run a hamburger stand. Like, I couldn't, right? But the idea that there's something, like, messy about his sex life and his yearning and his need. And also just there's something human about impulse, lack of impulse control, being led by your desire, but also, of course, then the self-obsession, not only the melding of the violence in the edit, which is very striking. and I think notable on the, you know, the great man front.

But like the fact that, and there's the, the, you know, we feel empathy, I think, on the like you carry guilt based on how you've treated other people front when we watch Robert sobbing beneath the tree and New Mexico and Kitty finds him. But also the fact that he's like, I did this. It's my fault. My fault. What happened to Jean is my fault. Me, me, me.

Because everything I do has an impact, the ripple on everybody else in the world, individual people in my life and also the world at large. Like the movie ending on a shot of atmospheric ignition, this threat that looms over the entire film, every individual relationship that he has, there's a version of that atmospheric ignition from his perspective to you. And so the sex is kind of a way of unlocking that. Yeah, there's something, I have a lot to say about what you guys are saying. So smart. Love the show. You're welcome anytime. We'd love to have you.

I think there's an interesting intellectual conflict with how people receive this movie. Because, you know, you've already said the phrase, a great man a couple of times. And it is obviously about a man who did something, quote, unquote, great. And it is a very narcissistic portrait of a person. Oh, yeah. And everything that he does has this very upsetting ripple effect, whether it be on a single woman or on a community of people or on friends of his who are part of a socialist communist community

or his colleagues in science or his family and his wife and his children or the American president and the American idea. Like he has this kind of corrupting quality. Yeah. So like on the one hand, you would say, well, that's not a very noble portrait of a person. Like this is a person who created kind of great shame and great violence in the world.

Yeah. But then there's also something so empathetic about Killian Murphy as a performer. And so clearly like an admiration that Nolan brings to the achievements of this great mind. And not just the mind who is able to sort of formulaically solve something, but build a team and execute something collectively. So one of the reasons why, like, I think I reject the general, like, well, this is just a great man movie, like, as though it were a movie about, like, a John Ford movie that has an uncritical look at someone who raped and pillaged across the American frontier is because it's all, it feels like on any given day while they were making the film, Nolan had a different perspective on what Oppenheimer represented and who he was.

And to me that friction is really exciting and really interesting to think about. And it speaks to, I just think most people that I know, which is like even the closest people in the world to you make terrible mistakes or do things that they deeply regret and wish they hadn't done. And so I'm not sure if I'd necessarily like, to me, this isn't Gandhi. Right. Gandhi is a portrait of a movie of like a man who did effectively no wrong. I both agree with you, but then I kind of, then my thinking comes back around to the other. side because on the one hand, yes, there's so many moments in the movie. Like that moment you're talking about when Kitty finds him crying over Gene and she says you don't get to commit

the sin and get us to feel sorry for you because it has consequences. Like that could be the thesis of the movie, right? So it's just sort of like he's he's a great, people throughout the movie tell him he's the most important man, right? Yeah. But also we watch him feel, you know, his soul get rotted out from underneath him because of what he did. So you're so, so, Nolan is saying, then there's the moment when Oppenheimer says, is anyone ever going to tell the truth about what happened here? Yeah. In terms of his encounter with Jason Clark, that whole thing. And then you could just almost hear Christopher Nolan from off camera being like, I will.

And then we're supposed to be like cheering for Strauss when he gets his come up in. It's like he's the villain of the piece. So then there is this way in which just by the day, the day. of the construct of the film, it valorizes Oppenheimer. And there's a ton of people who didn't even really know who Oppenheimer was. So just by existing as a piece of art,

it elevates him over other generations. It really is both. It's like I think Oppenheimer can both be seen as this complex figure who did things that without enough consideration that he let his ambition lead him, but that also he was railroaded by a bureaucratic state that effectively fucked up the 20th century in America.

So to me, the dynamic of both of those things being true is part of what makes the movie very exciting for me. And doesn't draw me back. And doesn't make it feel like a fusty 1982 Hollywood Claptrap kind of Awards prestige movie. Like, to me, it feels much deeper than that. Well, you mentioned, of course, Lawrence of Arabia. And I told you this, that I saw this as part of American Cinema Tech, 70 millimeter. I mean, they show it every, all the time every year, whatever. But I saw it again on the big screen this summer.

So thinking a lot about that portrait, complicated portrait of a man. Not such a nice man to you, Lawrence. Exactly. You know, Peter O'Toole is so handsome, so charming. But then you're like, dear God. And he's also like, dear God. Oh, my. You know, and then I also, I saw JFK for the first time.

I had never seen it. And so thinking about it as, and it's, that is such a, one of the messiest films I've ever seen in my entire life. And I was, like, kind of shocked by how messy it was, because I think, I had this sort of like more stayed idea of what I thought it was just sort of like, I think Kevin Costner and I think JFK and I'm like, I've seen the clip of like back into the right. Like I know like the courtroom moments were and I just didn't understand how insane it was. And so thinking about all those other ingredients in the stew was really fun.

And I'm so glad I had just freshly rewatched this when we watched The Odyssey so that I could sit there in the theater and be like, the Trojan horse is the atomic boy. It's really fun. Obviously, the term American Prometheus that we've already mentioned a few times comes from the text, comes from the source text that Nolan adapted here. But the way that that is incorporated into the film, you know, it's the opening language in the first few visuals. We get Neal saying, you're an American Prometheus, the man who gave them the power to destroy themselves. And they'll respect that. Then your work really begins.

I think we understand why Nolan is drawn to the, like American Prometheus, you can feel that pulling him in magnetically, like whether he wanted to be pulled in or not, because the idea of the Prometheus, like the Titan, right, the godly Titan, who is the way that, and this is kind of, you know, Joe has tracked over the, as a, you know, a Jonathan Nolan lover, the differences of maybe onto your emotionality point. And I think I'm slightly more drawn to some of the emotional beats. And like inception, for example, like I find that movie to be deeply moving. But like, the other side of the or the related aspect of are these movies always like pulling on your heartstrings is there's an intellectual rigor to them. And like the way that he is saying that Nolan is clearly interested in just what is the capacity for achievement? You know, what is the capacity for achievement? And so there are those moments where it feels like there is admiration. Undeniably, I agree, Joe.

But even still, there's always a little bit of a tether to, I'm like studying this scientifically almost. Like, how are people capable of these things? And if you are one of the people who's capable of those things, then what is your impact on the world? And then how do you feel about it? And because he thinks he's one of those people. Yeah. I mean, think about it practically. One of the interesting technical takeaways from The Odyssey was that this is,

the first feature film ever shot completely with IMAX cameras. And the only way to accomplish that was to build these sound blimps around the cameras so that it effectively would not be too loud and you'd be able to have dialogue sequences and you could hear dialogue. Unlike intent. Of course, an issue in many of Nolan's films. I will note also Oppenheimer, it's one of the great achievements of that movie is you can hear what everyone's saying to each other.

Yeah. Because it's more of, you know, it's a talky movie. It's a much talkier movie than almost all of his films. But the idea of him pushing that format. so aggressively and pushing the technology needed to execute that format in full to deliver to audiences, his perception of the grandest stage is really interesting to me because, you know, one of the drawbacks of that technology is that final sequence, which I love in the Odyssey of Odysseus, you know, stringing the bow, firing the arrow, and then taking on all comers,

is wonderful and very exciting. And the second time I watched it, I was like, oh, this is quite perky, jerkily, because it's very hard to shoot action of this scale with cameras like this. And there's a lot of questions going forward about whether or not he's going to do this again because he may not be able to, you could not shoot the action and tend it with those cameras, at least not in any consistent long sequence basis. So, you know, it's his very modest version of like, we spend all this time trying to figure out if we should. We never thought about whether we could.

We never thought about whether we should. And he also likes to kind of bump up against the limitations of his own design. So I do see, even if I can't personally psychologize some of the things, I do see a lot of the strategies that he brings to movie making into the characters that he is most fascinated by. And that's a fun thing that he does. Like most filmmakers, you can look at their work and they also have these recurrences, but they're not so easy to map. Like you guys have been talking about him for over a year now.

You can see it's not just that he likes the same couple of story ideas. It's that they're like resonant in all these different directions through every movie that is very fun to kind of pick apart, which is one of the reasons why he's really the filmmaker of the century. That he's like somebody that people love to talk about and they love to think about. On that note, and then I do want to get to our superlatives, but I was thinking a lot about, you know, you made this great collaborative list of the best Nolan films on the big pick. We did our individual list. Everyone's Nolan list is different. Yes. And beautiful in their own way.

Yeah, it's very special. No, I'm not here to bear your list. I think what is... No, you did that in real time. Yeah, you're like, this is an outrage and you guys owe me a blood debt. Yeah, I also took my hands off the wheel big time in that one. I was like, this would not be my list at all. But it's almost like an eneagram.

Because the stories are being kind of retold again and again and again, to decide which version of that story, which are, again, the same themes over and over again, which one like, you know, plucks the string of your particular bow and resonates with you, I think is really interesting. And, like, thinking about, again, some of the movies feel emotional to me and some of them don't, but they're always rife with these ideas. Yes. And so it's sort of like, okay, what is the most central idea and why is that, you know, resonating with me? There's this great Brennan Hodges essay about, it was the one on Oppenheim. where he says about Nolan films,

they are the dream catchers of universal fears share between him, his characters, and it seems us, the wide audience. And so what I love about that is like, what is the core fear? You know, Chris, when he was on here, talking about Dunkirk was talking, you know, his most beloved Nolan film,

was talking about this repeated theme of trying to get home. Right. And how he's like, all of Nolan films are about trying to get home. Or when Rebecca came, came on to talk to us about tenant, and she was talking about the family unit and how Nolan's preoccupation with, like, reuniting the family and the family unit. And so I was like, why the prestige for me? And I was like, oh, like, those feelings of like competitive inadequacy and, like,

you know, competition and like, will I ever be satisfied with my achievement? I'm like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that sort of like animates me. And so that's what's so great about the repetition inside of Nolan is it's a repeated story again and again, but slightly. focused in on one corner or another. It's refracted, you know, and you bring a lot of your personal experience. I, of course, am a great man, and so Oppenheimer is my pick. I get it.

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Sheesh. I feel like I'm on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. You're welcome here at the Sycamore Complex anytime. Soon we'll have sort of the lighting change like it does on who wants to be a millionaire. Love that for us. Okay, we're doing our Oppenheimer top 14. It was going to be top 15, but then we saw the Odyssey, so we're no longer doing that looking forward at the Odyssey category. So we're starting, as we often do with why is so serious, funniest line or moment of this incredibly hilarious movie. Sean Fentissue would you like to go for it. Yeah, I mean, my favorite quote is the quote that you have for a later category, but I'll just utter it now, which is, amateurs seek the sun get eaten, power stays in the shadows, which is of course not uttered by Oppenheimer. and is not true and is sort of the inverse thesis of the movie in a lot of ways, you know,

that power feels the need to rise, you know? And one of the reasons by the third act of the movie works so well for me is because power and ambition and ego are intertwined in such a unique way. And that there's no person like Oppenheimer who very quietly just like does his work and achieve something special and gets no credit. And we never hear about him again. And the same is true for ambitious strivers like Strauss. And it's also just, it's a very amusingly delivered line in the movie that doesn't sound like anything anyone would ever say. Yeah. And that is a constant in Nolan movies where people are frequently saying things where you're like, what'd you say?

Like, why would you say it that way? So I'm a fan of this one. I don't, would you say Crumholtz's character, Robbie, who like quietly like takes over Oppenheimer's role? Is he sort of someone who just sort of quietly and effectively does his job and is sort of... Always has a snack on hand? The warm moral center of this... A nice orange slice? Loves fruit.

Important. I love him. I, you know, David Kermelis just announced that he, uh, stepping back from acting. I know, but then he like came out and was like, just kidding. I'm not retiring. Yeah, we'll say it's hard to know. He didn't say he was retiring, right? He said he was going to step back.

But I hope he doesn't because he's wonderful in this movie and in many other movies. Yeah, I think maybe you could say I think that that's more To me that that part of the story is a sign That one, he was a part of a large scientific community And two, that as soon as someone in a meaningful role steps away There will be someone there to fill you in right away Like no hole is too big to be filled

But I love that it's him and not someone who You know, not like tell her or someone else who we sort of like resent Mallory I have A few lines that make me laugh early in the movie that kind of fall into a bucket of like delivered in casual conversation to rib the other person that really make me chuckle in this movie. So they're of a piece. The straws, no, I'm not trained in physics or anything else. I'm a self-made man.

And then Hopenheimer says, I can relate to that. Really? Yes, my father was one. Just absolutely kills me. No, the entire Strauss Hopenheimer. So good. Origin scene is, you know, it's just bar, bar, And it's such an effective setup. Not lowly, just a shoe salesman, actually. Incredible stuff. I also quite like in the Oppenheimer Gene Chevalier sequence that I'm sorry, I read it in the original German, iconic, hysterical. Just the very kind of like organic way that he's able to. And it does help us feel that superiority, you know, because you have the adoration that people look at.

But then they're like, okay, this guy's like full of himself. And then I like when he's on the other side of that one, Groves, you know, I'd like to see. well if that's how you treat Lieutenant Colonel for the have this dry clean with Nichols I hate to see how you treat a humble physicist if I ever meet one I'll let you know Ouch It's good it's not a like laugh riot movie

But there are some amusing lines And the rhythm of the language for people who are supposed to be that smart Kind of has to deliver some rejoinders like that Some singers that feel like they land And I think the first hour in particular Has quite a few What about you Joe? No I mean I do think

My real answer is that entire Strauss Oppenheimer you know, back and forth. I'm going to put a snarky answer and said and say, the biggest laugh for me is always when poor Senate aide, played by Alden and Eric has to say, Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, the corniest moment of the whole movie, and it's very funny. Okay, let me, I agree, it's very corny.

If one of the reasons why I love JFK is because I saw it at a very young age. And so I certainly took much of what was shared in the film as a couple, kind of American gospel. Sure. Not understanding history at all and not being yet taught about JFK's assassination. Well, I think a lot of people, yeah. And I think of this movie in a similar way where, like, if I had seen it when I was 13, I would have been like, what?

John F. Kennedy? Who I just learned about in school yesterday? You know, like, there is a kind of, and I've said this many times about No. Like, there's a kind of adolescent glee with a lot of the writing that he puts in his films where it's like a little dopey and it's a little like overstated, you know? I'm sure the moment when he was like reading American Prometheus or whatever, and he's like, wait. JFK was involved in the straw searing? Do you guys think that's a little breadcrumb, though, like tipping at interest in a future JFK story for Nolan the way that the Oppenheimer quote was previously?

I would welcome it. I don't. I just feel like we've had so many JFK stories. We have. We had gotten a lot of odysseyses. Keep them coming. What if Wishbone's episode about The Odyssey had stopped Christopher Nolan for making? You're right.

Or the return of your favorite movie that you like to talk about. You know, Ray Fine shows this. What am I going to do? How'd that go? Great. Great. What did you do with that information? I looked at my television.

I had paused and I kept looking. And then we hit play and I said to my husband, can you go back once more? And he did. Oh, that's nice. Adam's the best. One of the thing, this genuinely makes me laugh. It's not a funny line, but it's just the way Damon says it as Groves when they're trying to recruit the various scientists.

And he goes, why? Why? How about because this is the most important fucking thing this ever happened in the history of the world? Grub. How about that? It's incredible. It's so funny. It's really funny.

Isn't it the bitchiest he's ever been on screen? Yes, he's so good. Yeah. It's between that and cantalabra, right? Yeah, oh my God. If only he wore the tiny shorts in this movie. Okay, you either die a hero, you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Who is the real villain of this movie, Mallory Rubin? So, I mean, obviously, we've already talked about this. It's not just literally straws in that character, but specifically through the movie. lens of Nolan assessing Oppenheimer is the idea of inadequacy, right? Where does your insecurity lead you? And like, if you feel feeble in comparison to somebody who is achieving other things, then what do you do? So like when Kitty has that line, you know, the truly vindictive, patient is saints. So the lowly shoes man, shoe salesman, not lowly. You know, that look on his

face that you mentioned. The isotope of all the like the things that we cut back to or forward to, many, many times. The isotope with a beer bottle, and you do. You know, it's a more useful than a sandwich. And then that lingering look on Straw's face, like, this guy made me feel embarrassed. And so I am going to destroy him and engage my, every decision I make for the rest of my life and my career through ensuring that he can never impact policy again, because impact policy, impacting policy means that he is undermining and dunking on me both publicly and just every minute of like every conversation that we have. You don't know scientists like I do counselor. They resent anyone who questions their judgment, especially if you're not one of them.

Like the way that he is projecting in that moment with that line, he should be thanking me. Well, he's not so, so, so good. I think the best, the real bow, this idea of like you are so desperate to be the one everybody looks at and calls great and calls accomplished when he keeps talking about Strauss keeps talking throughout the film about this Einstein moment in the moment by the pond and what did he say what did he say couldn't even meet my eye and then Senate aide all that Aaron Rex said you know so nobody really knows what they said to each other that day is it possible they didn't talk about you at all is it possible they spoke about something more important.

It's just, even though that final stretch of the movie. It's just like, another terrible line that Alden Error is, like, is not my favorite part in the language and deafness of the dialogue is not the best in that stretch. The idea behind it is quite, quite effectively. Don Draper, and the Draper. Yeah. He's Ginsburg, you know. Uh, what's your answer here? Well, the movie isn't a nest full of vipers, right?

You've got William Borden. the lawyer and hack who's brought in to lie about something that Oppenheimer didn't do. You've got Boris Pash, the incredibly menacing and dangerous military intelligence officer that Casey Affleck plays. You've got, obviously, Strauss. You've got Edward Teller, who sort of betrays Oppenheimer ideologically and even practically. You've got Roger Rob, who's the vicious, I guess, prosecutorial attorney. You've got Heisenberg, you know, is sort of a traitor to the idea of science and working with a corrupt empire. I think there's something really interesting in Ernest Lawrence, the Hartnick character, who is a compatriot and a fellow traveler in some ways, but not in others.

and you'll encounter someone like this in any career or somebody who seems to be on your side. And when things are good, they're with you. And when things start to turn, their allegiances wilt a bit. And it doesn't mean that they hate you or you hate them, but you're not all in it together. And I think this movie is an interesting portrayal of a lot of different kinds of loyalty or the absence of.

And so I don't know if there's any one true villain throughout the story, even though Straws is so demarcated. to be the bad guy. But rewatching the movie last week when thinking about using someone like Hartnett who is, was meant for this big fancy Hollywood career and kind of flamed out. And was always a good actor and an interesting actor.

And one of those classic like Brad Pitt character actor and a leading man's body types. And he's so tall and so handsome. And he's so like on the side of right and this is what the American cause will be in your attempts to unionize this shop or your inability to really communicate to the military that you understand what's really at stake here

with this story shows that like compromise is kind of at the heart of all of this. And it depends on how much of an ideologue you are, I think. As I get older, I'm much less of an ideologue because I think that's impractical. And like, I'm just trying to get to the second half of my life in many ways. And so you find a lot of people.

And so, like, I do relate to Lawrence in some ways. But I also feel that the movie is kind of ungenerous towards him in a very subtle way in a movie that is not very subtle. That's such an interesting... I'm glad you brought him up because he is a really interesting... Interestingly deployed character. And, like, I find it... I always find it fascinating revisiting it

to see that in a movie where, like, there's a routine conversation among different parties and characters about who can you trust. Is there a spy? What don't we know? What information is making it out the door? Even something like Oppenheimer

or eventually having to give up Chivalier's name when he tried so hard not to, the idea of like, when do you have to bend? Where Lawrence, even though he's doing all of the things you outlined, he never hides his intention ever. He is in some way like the most forthright and true character.

He's like, I'm telling you to your face. I can't put you on the project for this reason. I'm telling you to your face, I've been to those Berkeley meetings, you shouldn't go. Now, we don't have to agree with him, and I'm sure many people are appalled by the morality of his stance. But the fact that he's not trying to hide it from Robert or other people is interesting. And then building toward the fact that when he shows up, when he's called to...

That's the moment I respect him the least. And then he shrinks out. And then he like... Got shamed into it. Yeah, got shamed by Izzy. Case of colitis. And then slinks away and is like... Yeah.

Dummy. What's fun? So, like, a couple of... I want to mention a couple things. I love how you talk about the... how the casting of Hartnett himself tells its own story. And of course, like everyone has said this, but the way in which he,

Nolan, cast all these familiar actors in, you know, so even down to like Jack Quaid being here or whatever, helps us orient us so we don't get lost in the sea of millions of characters. Such a smart idea. It's really, really smart. Lawrence is so funny because growing up in the Bay Area,

the Lawrence Hall of Science is like where you, like, you go and you see all the dots. Like, it's this like place you go. on a field trip. And so every time they say, like, Lawrence, I'm like, it's named after Ernest Lawrence. I was like the Lawrence Hall of Science in the Bay Area. But, like, he's such a nobody, nothing, not accomplished character, but like is the name I knew better than anyone else, you know what I mean?

But, you know, like he's almost probably a person who could sustain his own biopic, you know, given his own accomplishments, but he's sort of a necessary tool in Oppenheimer. The other thing this movie does that I love is as we revisit scenes. the way in which, like, other characters are revealed to have been in the room, just the camera didn't show us earlier. You know, the big one is, like, when we move the flower arrangement, you're like, date on, what are you doing here? Whatever. Jump scare. But just sort of, like, turning around the table, you're like, oh, Lawrence was there in that scene or whatever.

Or, like, the big one is, like, oh, Strauss is it, you know, like, et cetera. I'm going to give it to not a person, but just the concept of restless ambition. And that hits a number of people on the power front and on the, pursuit of ideas, you know, Jurassic Parkfront. Okay. Are you watching closely, most exquisitely gorgeous shot? I'm going to go first here and give it to, it's a superhero suiting up moment. And it's after Ravi, Kromholtz's character says, they need this for who we are, so be yourself only better. We see Oppenheimer take the military uniform off and put the hat on and pick up the pipe. And just like,

As the light is streaming in and he's standing in front of the window and the Gorins and score is going crazy. Like it's, and then he walks out. And in the screenplay. We had that shit on. Yeah, that shit on. In the screenplay, which is told in the first person, it's an insane screenplay. It's great. I pull on a jacket, run a hand through newly shorn, close cropped dark hair, put on a pork pie hat, pick up my pipe.

And then exterior, exterior Los Alamos under construction moments later, I walk the main drag, like a sheriff, nodding at construction. workers as I pass, the iconic J. Robert Oppenheimer. So this idea of like Nolan and the concept of costuming, which we've talked about since following, like this is the thing of like sort of what does it mean for Guy Pearce to be wearing that suit in Memento or what does it mean for, of course, Batman to suit up or all, you know, all of these various moments. And I think about Nolan himself, Sean is is very responsibly like restraining himself from psychoanalyzing Christopher Nolan. I love to psychoanalyze Christopher Nolan. And like the fact that he has like created his own directorial uniform, you know?

Did you see those photos recently of him in shorts at Universal Studios? No. He was like at Universal Studios and I was just like, nothing for shame. Was he planned like a game, like a pickup hoops game? No, he was just out at the park and he was a man who was like, it's oppressively hot. I want to wear shorts, but I was like, where's the overcoat? I don't. I don't, like, Chris Renola needs to be wearing an overcoat and a crisp white collared shirt.

Like he has his own uniform. Right. If you're not at work, but at work, no shorts. No shorts at work. That's a short by hat. Longstanding fantasy role. Okay. All right.

But in play, at play, at play at Citywalk. Okay. I think I love Citywalk. He does. It's his own face. He's always there. It's so hard to get in there. Weird.

You think he has his own parking spot? I don't think he has to go through his security. Yeah. You must have his own parking spot. Sean, what's your answer here? I already mentioned it, which is that image of him being hoisted and the American flag position directly behind him and, you know, the sort of like false promise of the future. and a lot of how the second half of the movie is

are really about. Destruction of lives and the soul. Just that? Just that. I'll go with kind of an obvious one, but just the light wave, star,

explosion, atmospheric ignition, collapsing star, black hole, gravity well, interstitials that we get, that we cut to throughout the entire film. Not only because, especially like, bending light,

I'm not a quantum mechanics, a scholar, physicist. Add to the list. But not only because they look cool, but because I think it also then further unlocks something that the movie does kind of amazingly well, which is actually inject a lot of quantum mechanics, physics, science, without ever tripping you up on that at all. At all. They're talking about black holes. They're talking about splitting the atom.

They're talking about the nuclei, this and that. Teller is running his calculates. regulations, uranium, plutonium, heavy water. Oh my God, they made a mistake. And you're like, don't need to understand any of that. You see the big fireball and you're like, got it. You don't even need Mr. DNA to explain it. Exactly.

You don't. Yeah. No, always well. They do have the, I can't remember it's the uranium. The marbles. The marbles. They do have these kind of visual signifiers of accomplishment of sort of reaching a point that is also just like very simple, straightforward, but so simple and straightforward that most people wouldn't think to create storytelling that is able to communicate

to you. Like, we've made progress. Like, especially in a movie with so much montage, that you can kind of like stack the marbles over time. It's very, you know, elegant little piece of storytelling. It's marble stacking and then suddenly Peter going from being a baby to like walking around and then there's another baby, like little things like that that help you inside of just the

Los Alamos stretch. Because obviously we have Killian Murphy looking quite different across time because we're covering many years. But always handsome. Just amazingly those cheekbones. I also love, to your point about that. I love learning that how much of that was done practically, like, that in the behind the scenes, you can see the, like, the lights that they were just sort of, like, moving in front

of the camera in front of a shot of Killian Murphy to give us some of those images. Okay. I can't remember to forget you, the scene you think about the most, Sean Fennessee. I think it's the Trinity Test, right? I mean, it's the best scene in the movie. It's the most ecstatic piece of filmmaking. I think he's probably ever made. It's an event. I was skis keyword on the internet when I, the trailer of this movie came out and I was like, we know this story. Why do we need this? Very foolishly. And then loved the movie.

Did you know everything about straws though? You know? No. And of course I didn't know everything about this story. Like, what the hell was I talking about? You know what's fun about getting older is like, sometimes it's really fun to be wrong. It used to really embarrass me. And now I'm just sort of like, you know what?

This is so human. I feel the exact same way. Specifically about this where I was like, how nice that my own ego can be laxie. can be lapsed by my wonder and excitement about something because it would have been the former when I was younger. But this one in particular, the whole point of

a movie like this is not that you know the information, it's experiencing someone's perception of the information. And the Trinity Test is just bravora filmmaking and thrilling. Yeah, it's incredible. That's my runner-up. I think like you said earlier, there are kind of

two contenders for this category. It's Trinity test or the post-bombing speech. And that's my pick. I think that sequence in the gym on the bleachers with the chanting and the stamping. And we've cut elsewhere to the feet pounding the bleachers. And we know the hold that that moment has on him moving forward, you know, in the super meeting later when we're cutting to it. But the way like we have the actual language of the speech that you already outlined, Joe, but then like, you know, the flash of light and the ash falling from the sky. The way that the sound is just sucked out of the scene.

So you see these screaming, cheering faces, but you don't hear them anymore. We're hearing like the heartbeat we're hearing. And then, of course, the cut to the face, you know, the flaking skin on Christopher Nolan's own daughter's face. But we're not going to psychoanalyze Christopher. It's all right there. Stepping into the burnt body on the ground. And then amid the cheering and the celebration, the euphoria, the euphoria, and this horrible

moment and the guilt and shame. that basically is the final stretch of the Odyssey starting to creep into Oppenheimer right here on Oppenheimer's face in real time. And then you start to see, like, it's not everybody's cheering. Somebody's sobbing. Somebody's vomiting.

Like there are people who realize what this means and then we cut right from that scene to the time cover, the father of the atomic bomb. It's just really, really, really jaw-dropping. So that's my pick, but I did consider Trinity Test because I agree it's amazing. Those are both perfect picks.

For some reason, the moment that Even when I was more critical of this film, and I am, before I learned how to stop worrying and embrace it, is the meeting where it's decided where in Japan they'll drop the bomb. And James Remar, who comes back as Teresius and The Odyssey, says I've taken Kyoto off the list. I honeymoon there. And so just sort of the absolutely poisonous, arbitrary nature of like, you know, it's great cultural significance and also I honeymoon there. So we won't kill everyone who lives there. There's a fascinating real world resonance there too, which is that James Reimar is married to a Japanese woman. No, I didn't know that.

That fact was fun. Fascinating choice, yeah. He doesn't speak English if he does this with an accent thicker than sourcrow sauce. Most baffling accent. Easy pick. Are you giving it to Brana? No, for once I'm not. I think every time he's been.

It's been Brana every other time, but is it a Safdi brother then? It is my guy, Benny Safty as Teller doing his best Hungarian. here, I guess, urge them to continue my research on the super is the line where I'm just like, what's going on here? And I actually think his performances teller is great. There's the, just the right, he's striking something really specific there from the minute he, they want to keep him at Oppenheimer's like, like keep him out and just barges right in. You know, everything tonally about the performance is great, but the accent is confounding to me.

Yeah, I think that would be the go-to for most people. I do think Jason Clark attempting like a semi-New England prosecutor is like, it's, there's some moments that I noted that were a little strange. And in a perfect emotional performance, Killian Murphy is sometimes. And my girl Emily Blunt is sometimes. Yeah, both are quite mannered. From the UK.

All right. No one cared who I was until I put on the math. Best Use of a Nolan verse regular? I'll go first. I mean, I would not have thought of Dustin Malchin as a regular, but, and you know, he's a very famous figure amongst horror movie fans and has appeared very many, a lot of horror movies over the years. And he's often used as like a goblin in movies, you know, like a boogeyman. And he's a real American boogeyman in this movie. He really is the person who, like, is potentially going to fell one of our great minds.

And I had just forgotten that he is so important. Is it in Dark Knight or Batman Beat? Dark Knight, right? As the Joker Allegiant dressed up in a police uniform. That was, like, his first sort of, I think maybe his first big mainstream part. Was it really? Maybe. So that's a very interesting little Nolan-esque callback. So I like that one.

But he, I mean, he's great at this. Like, he's got a huge troop now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I do like that he... Yeah, it's his first role. That's got a film.

Amazing. Fun fact. He's got one of those faces. I don't know. The pick is obviously killing Murphy. It's, like, hard to make the... I can't really talk myself into making any other case. But I will say, I really, like, I admire the commitment to getting...

It's like, we're going to get Gary Oldman in here. We have to find a way. This cast has a thousand people in it. And that scene in the Oval Office is so good, but also, obviously, like, the address in other moments. That's another outrage. accent in this movie. Yeah, I mean, it's been fun for us to track.

And as you know, my answer, as much as Brana has been in the accent category, my answer has often been Killian Murphy, because I'm such a huge scarecrow, Jonathan Crane fan. I love the way in which Killian Murphy, and we talked about this with Damon as well, this sort of like showing up for small roles and being rewarded with

like the big shiny center stage moment. Death Melchon starring role when? Yeah, that's my question. Yeah. Are you going with? with Jefferson Hall here. Are you going to Thailand Lannister? I'm going to go with Damon. I just like love how Damon is used in this movie. He's great. I just think he's so, and like the way he looks in this movie, the mustache. And also just like what you learn about Groves in terms of like the performance he's putting on.

You know, and then Oppenheimer's like, I looked into you. Yeah, he went study engineering at MIT. Like this is weird. So like the performance inside of the performance inside of the performance of Matt Damon. And also just like the, the. meta nature of Casey Affleck also being here is just quite fun, I think. All right. Amateurs seek the sun, get eaten, power stays in the shadows, said by one Mr. Strauss. Stealth MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about. Difficult movie for this category, given how many aspects of this movie have been lauded. Literally awarded with an Oscar, but also celebrated in many forms. I'm going with the size of the cast, specifically the commitment to include.

incorporating that the volume of scientists who the film finds some way to name or give one line to. Like, I tend to forget when I come back and I readwatch this movie and I'm like, yeah, Jack Quaid's in this movie, you know? Josh Peck is here. Yeah. Which Wolf Brother is that? Josh Peck is here is a great one, you know? Like, is that that guy from C.W. show The 100 it is. You know?

Like, they're all here. And the thing that I think it achieves is just giving you a real sense of how many, despite this movie being so fully about Oppenheimer's, we've talked about, how many people had to contribute to this and participate in this. It's like the film's version of that Grove's Oppenheimer Exchange where it's like hard to put a price tag on it. It's like, not really. Just like add up all the bills, you know? Hard to give you a sense of how many people were involved in the Manhattan Project. It's like, not really. Put like 400 of them in this movie, you know?

So I think it achieves something. that is necessary to balance out centering so much of this on Oppenheimer himself. Sean Fennessee. I didn't know where you could do that. You could answer questions by saying the totality of something. Pick anything you want. I'm not going to do anything you want. I'm not going to do these categories.

That's cheating. You can also just be like the editing, the cinematography. Do anything you want? I didn't think about it. I am doing anything. See, I was, that was. Jennifer had first, but like, you know, that's an Oscar. I know.

But people don't see her name enough, I think. So she's wonderful. I interviewed her, um, for this film and is just like the most normal down-to-earth person. And this just, I think editing Christopher Nolan's movies, they sound like hell to me. Probably challenging. Yeah. And this one in particular is just the tonnage.

It's insane. And, you know, you talked about it with the size of the cast. I mean, there's just so many speaking parts. And there's so many intersecting and interweaving plot lines and film stock styles and the music and the way that it has to kind of match perfectly with so many of the images that are created. So I think that's a great pick I mean I was just going to pick David Crumholt's because I just think he's a heart and soul of the movie And I was gonna yeah I was gonna pick Crumholtz but my memory and I think it's just because I'm in like a certain

Or at three years ago was on a certain corner of Twitter Like my memory was like so many people were like crumholt should have won the osk like instead of down I was one of those people yeah Yeah it's one of those things where like it is kind of a little Microcosmic snapshot of how the Academy Awards were Where like there was never a moment not even a second where David Krumholtz was even going to be nominated.

That was not on the table because this is a very mechanized system where when this movie came out, it was very clear that Downey was going to run and that he was going to have his moment. And if it wasn't going to be Downey or if there were going to be two nominations, the other one probably would have been Matt Damon. And then you go down the list and like maybe Krumholtz is third or fourth.

But, you know, I think it's kind of important over time to continue to give performers their laurels even if they're not recognized by the academy. And it's very common for bigger stars to get their awards. in supporting categories when they've been overlooked. You know, but Downey should have won for like Chaplin like 35 years ago. You know what I mean? It's one of those things where like, why did that not happen then?

I don't know. Do you think he'll win again for playing Victor von Doom? I don't, but you know what? Who knows? If Downey had won for the judge, which is what he wanted to have happened that one year. Or what if he had won for that documentary he made about his dad? Oh. Yeah, that he was really, like there were these like, he's running.

He's running years. And then it was like, he's running. and he has a path to it. But, like, we were talking about this with, like, this year as we talk about Anne Hathaway versus Samantha Morton, like, is this a moment? This is the exact same race? Yeah. The exact same race.

Is Anne Hathaway getting her second Oscar? And when she came out of stage at D23, I was just like, Jesus Christ, she's brought down the house. Until, yeah, the entire stadium erupted for her. Like seven months pregnant? Yeah, until she drops that baby, like, she is going to be on every single stage. That's all about whether she picks supporting her lead or whatever they pick. discussing that, but my question was, like, what if the critical group start, because in supporting, I really feel like those critical, sorry, I could always talk about the Oscars, but like, like, those critical group awards when they start gathering steam behind, like a Patricia Arquette or something like that, like, it can go. So, like, if Samantha Morton starts winning those, the narrative could change. And if Crumholz had, like, started winning those critical group, like. Yeah, it's possible, like, Regina King and Beale Street, like, that kind of a thing. Like, those things do happen. Yeah. It's why, part of why Amy Madigan was able to, like, you know.

make it all that way. That was one for sure. That's like the one path. If Samantha Morton like starts cropping up in those, that's the one path she could have. Otherwise, it's, and to your point, category. For the record, I like Downey in the movie. I think it's very overstated his performance because I think he doesn't really know how to act anymore. But I find it's appropriate for the movie because he is written as a villainous type.

So I like him in the scenes with Oppenheimer. Yeah. Like I think those scenes are really good. I just, it might be more of a writing issue. But to your point, like, I think he should have won for Chaplin or a number of other things that he has done in the past that I'm delighted he has an Oscar. Okay. You're waiting on a train, a train that will take you far away. Best Dead Girl Moment.

We just had to do it. We had to do it. It's one of my favorite categories. Kille Murphy being fucked by the ghost of Florence Pew inside of a hearing. It's got to be either that. Yeah. Or, as we already talked about, Opie flashing to the hair in the bathtub. as Roger Rob is just berating him about whether he would have used the H-bomb.

Like, consequences of my action. Dead girl moment. I'm with you on both of them. Those seem appropriate. That seems right. Or putting his daughter. This has been just, yeah, or that. It's melting off of his daughter or something like that.

Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. That's a good one as well. It's just something he loves to do. And we were like, it's not going to happen in the Odyssey. And then it did. Okay. They won't fear until they understand it. And they won't understand it until they've used it.

Clear is great man moment. We've already talked about a lot of this. when Sean raised this earlier, but anything you want to add here? I'll just rapid fire read a couple emblematic quotes. Sure. To kind of put a bow on the discussion we've had all pod. Lawrence, because you're not just self-important. You're actually important.

Chevalier, you see beyond the world we live in. There's a price to be paid for that. Easy, when you speak, they hear a prophet. Oh, my God. Incredible Oppenheimer himself. Our work here will ensure a peace. Mankind has never seen. Sillard, you're the great Scyl.

Salesman of science, Oppenheimer himself, calling it divine power. And then Strauss with, you know, great envy and jealousy saying because it made him the most important man who ever lived. Robert built that den place. He was founder, mayor, sheriff, all rolled into one. I really like the scene when he comes to teach and Lomitz is his first student and only student in the class and he immediately starts lecturing and you kind of see Oppenheimer's mind come alive. And, you know, it's paradoxical and yet it works. Like that scene, too, was sort of like, this guy's smart. And he's smarter than everybody else. And he's going to tell you why he's so smart as a sort of like lead up to a lot of the moments that you guys are describing.

I love that. Sean, an idea is like a virus resilient, highly contagious. The line that hits hardest three years later. Maybe it is it's paradoxical and yet it works. Which is like I think maybe the best defense of this movie that I could make, which is like something that is as overstated in the third act as it possibly is should kind of pull this thing down from

inside it, but I still like it. Like, I'm still, it still, it still turns me on. Fusion and fission, baby. That's right. Um, I'm tempted to go with Boers, algebra's like sheet music. The important thing isn't, can you read music? It's can you hear it? Can you hear the music robber?

But it's been a category title for us, so that makes me feel like it's disqualified because we've mentioned it now 13 times already on other podcasts. But whenever I hear that line in the movie, I feel the Gorensen score. Oh my God. I know. It does give you a- It gives you a chill. chill watching it. So instead, I will go with my guy Teller and his flawless, pitch-perfect accent.

Jay Robert Oppenheimer, Sphinx-like Guru of the Adam, nobody knows what you believe, do you? Because I think nobody knows what you believe do you is actually quite effective and pointed in a good way. What about you, Joe? Our guy Chevalier, you see beyond the world we live in, there's a price to be paid

for that. Or when Oppenheimer is talking to, I can't remember his name the scientist who he calls a fellow traveler, where he's Like they need us and he's like until they don't. Right. So this idea of like going in tandem with the great man idea is sort of like they will worship you and they will build you up and they will be equally excited to tear you down.

Like that is part and parcel of the whole narrative. Yeah, I love that. You think darkness is ally. You're ally but you really adopt the dark. I was born in it. Bold it by it. Shut up in. Most devastating moment.

This was one of the easier categories for me. It's kind of obvious, but I do just think the end. like the Einstein Oppenheimer scene Albert when I came to you with those calculations we thought we might start a chain reaction

that would destroy the entire world I remember a wall and whatever it I believe we did and then the meme face and then the atmospheric ignition it's like that's a good ending

to a movie it is and so I'm like the 30-ish minutes that proceeded I'm like and then at the end I'm just like

Godfather three pulled me back in it really hits hard yeah that was also my answer that's a great answer I'll go with it Can you hear the music Robert?

Most unforgettable Gorensenism. Zimmerism really works better than Gorencinism. Ludwigism? Ludwigism. You know, I saw him at Tartine across the street the other day? Here? Yeah. Our Tartine. Sheesh.

Sorry, not to call out Ludwig. Also interviewed him for this film, lovely man. Genius. Yeah, he's great. You're the best, Sean. Well, I did. She were the great. Can you hear the music is my answer.

This is the... You referenced this montage earlier. It's when it's not just science, but it's also modernist art. It's also he's reading The Wasteland. You know, it's just like all of the cultural moments that go into the ideas that are sparking and coming alive. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a very haughty thing that if not done well can seem so pretentious. But I love haughty.

I do too. I mean, I wish more artists would aspire to these things. So, like, the intersection between art and science is real. and that form breakers, no matter what the medium, inspire people. And obviously, Oppenheimer is very inspired by, or Nolan is very inspired by Oppenheimer in some ways, and he's very inspired by these great artists and figures who, you know, a man staring at a Picasso and realizing it doesn't have to be

perceptionally exactly what you think it is is a little much. But I do like it. Like, it did hit me. I felt very forgiving of it despite its obviousness. I liked it a lot. I'm going with the final prep stretch before the Trinity test and this has actually been my pick

for the can you hear the music category in a lot of movies the Zimmer ones like when the score functions in a Nolan movie like clock you know the ticking you can feel the ticking of it the anxiety the way that it heightens that feeling in your chest and your gut this is really like an astonishing

example of that the way that there's like a almost Geiger meter like sound effect incorporated because of the fear and the terror the role the incorporation to the pairing with the score of the natural elements like the thunder the rolling in of the thunder

in the clouds the flapping of the sheets you know priming us for the bring the sheets in music and then I'm like is that a fiddle maybe it's not I don't know but just even the choice of instruments is very effective and surprising it's amazing let me think Gorinson said about sort of which

instruments he chose is that they wanted to make you know and I love when they talked about this with the Odyssey but for this that they wanted to make almost like Peter and the Wolf style that the violin is the sound of Oppenheimer because it can go from beautifully melodic to like horror movie screeching. Yes. And sort of like so it can just like, you know, be both this like act of creation and then then just this act of horror at the same time.

Sean Fentanyi, anything you want to add here? No, I think it's that first sequence. It's not the first sequence. It's sort of like after he's been challenged by Niels Bork. And he goes into this like state of. state of intellectualizing about fission and fusion that I think is probably the score moment that resonates the most for me. Two more to go and then we're done with the Nolan rewatch.

How sad. Okay. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship. Actor who has yet to return to the Nolan verse, but should. This was much more fun when we were doing way earlier. Basically, these are actors who have not been in the honesty. Yeah, exactly. But I'm going to give it to Crumholtz, who I said, Crumholt, who has quit acting, but I

guess has since walked that back. But Crumholt should be in everything. And like, would I put Crumholtz in The Odyssey? Sure. Yeah, why not? Like, Osamo, I love you. But Crumholtz, as you may is? He's wonderful.

That would be fun. I don't know. It'd be great. I think Nolan needs to try to write a movie told directly from the perspective of a woman. And I think with Florence Pugh would be interesting. This is my pick as well. Let's get Pugh back. Let's get Pugh back in a Nolan movie.

You don't think if he finally makes a movie. from the point of view a woman. It's definitely gonna be in half the way. Like, she's put in her time. I know. It's her time. Yeah, I just think. There's like a second woman.

That would be insane. That would be shocking. Would they talk to each other? Never. Never. Would they talk to each other about anything other than a man? Not only can they not be in the same room. They can't be in the same time.

And they will both die. So don't worry about it. Yeah, I just, I feel like Florence Pugh is one of the very few like under 35 female movie stars in America. And has had kind of a weird five years where I don't really, you know, no shots of Thunderbolts, which I like. Fuck off. This is, this is Yelena Bolova HQ right here.

I get it. I like her and I liked her in Spider-Man a lot. But like, she's, there's more there. I've watched a bit of East of Eden. It was good. Oh, okay. Like what she's doing. Oh, that's exciting.

That's TV. It's a TV show. Yeah, but come on. She's a movie star. Why did she make a TV show? Unbelievable. That's so, because. Oh, come on.

Come on. She's supposed to be like our Barbara Sandwick, man. Like she's like brassy and tough and smart and sexy. And like a very classic movie star type that I love. And I think she brings, again, a lot of gravitas to a weird part. Like, Jean has written very strangely in this movie. Stuff she has to do while wearing no clothes would be questionable, I think, with most actresses. And she, I think, makes what is very unbelievable on the page, I think, work in the film.

And so I like to see her. had a little more to do. Same. I look forward to you walking back, your brist-merching of East of Eden when you're like, I finally watched Andor and guess what? It was a masterpiece. I know. I mean, two of the formative voices in my life, right? East of Eden is Steinbeck? Yeah. Yeah. And George Lucas? Yeah. Sure. Okay.

Tony Gilroy and Zocazan. Like, you know. I love Zoe Kazan. Yeah. I know you do. All right. Mallory. Pugh, pew, pew, p, p, p, all right. Some men just want to watch the world burn the most Nolan thing about this movie. I don't have anything to add beyond what we've already covered today. I mean, it's a astonishingly edited, filmed, scored, practically effects enhanced, nonlinear exploration of a great man confronting his impact and legacy on the world. And it's, you know, I guess maybe one thing worth talking about,

given that this and Odyssey were back to back is just like Nolan's era of adapting history or historical works. versus like original storytelling. That's interesting. Do you think he'll stay in that stretch for a while or go back to like the tenant? This is a, this is my story. Yeah. JFK told from this perspective of Jackie

as played by Anne Hathaway. I'm in. I'm interested. You have my attention. I have seen the film Jackie starring Natalie Portman. I love that movie. Yeah, I do too.

Very interesting movie. I, what he does next is fast. fascinating to me. Yeah. You know, he's hinting around at making a horror movie, which I think would be a lot of fun based on what we saw in the Odyssey. Yeah, the Odyssey is a horror movie. In terms of like those germs of the next movie being in the movie.

It'd be really great, though, if he was just like, I'm rebooting Nightmare in Elm Street. It's obviously not going to do that. I think this is kind of the summation of the style, right? Yeah. And a lot of the things that I bumped on in previous films. I felt more forgiving of in this movie, I think maybe because stylistically and narratively, it felt like a step forward and also it's a true story.

And it doesn't seem to take very many liberties with the truth in a way that a lot of movies like this go under the microscope. So. Yeah. When you, Sean Fentasy, if there's a storyteller that hasn't worked for you and then they do something that hits for you, You know, and you're like, you know what, Nolan movies aren't really for me, and then you see up in it.

And you're transformed. But that's a misnomer about my relationship to Christopher Nolan. And I've been saying this like a thousand times, but I was all in on Memento. I saw insomnia in theaters. I liked it. I really liked the prestige. And I always said that. To me, the bump was where most people were like, wow, you know, Dark Night Inception.

That's like the greatest thing that ever happened to me because I was 14 when those movies came out. And I understand that perspective. I have my movies like that as well. But Inception in particular was a movie that just didn't really... Labrath, yeah, it happens. Well, my question was, and this is not about changing your score of Inception. I'm trying to think of who's a director who, like, made five movies that I didn't like, and then their sixth movie I did like.

You don't have an answer for that. I mean, I guess my... It's usually the opposite. It's like Zach Snyder. Like, I really was interested in the first couple of Zach Snyder movies. He really went off the rails. Yeah. I think I find...

Here's what I'll say. That, like, I guess... The entire body of Nolan's work just enhances all the previous films for me. And this rewatch project has, you know, and so just sort of like being able to think of it as one large story. And so when you have a stretch of Nolan that you appreciate and then he sort of like goes off the rails for you commercially, whatever it is, and then he like comes back around to a sort of haughty intellectual space that you love to exist in, does it like reflect a shine back on some of these other films where you're like, that didn't really work? work for me, but I see how these ideas have been percolating inside of them, and you need them to get here. I don't know.

I mean, it's been, it's been, I've rewatched Inception and Interstellar during COVID. Uh-huh. Just in a real, like, I'm having a family. I'm buying a home, like having this kind of like, maybe I should revisit some of my strongly held opinions. And in both cases, I kind of landed with those movies where I had always been, which is like, like some things about it, don't like some things about it. The things I don't like about it, I find it very hard to certify.

by loving the movie. And I love a lot of movies. It's not that uncommon for me to love a movie. And I want to love most movies. And I don't think either of those movies are cynical at all. I just think they're a little immature. And I don't think that his most recent run of movies are immature. Tendid is like a big experiment.

It might be the most immature movies ever made, but it's such a fun experiment that I can't help getting caught up in it. We love a swing. We love a swing. These last two, though, their movies made my... I'll say made by a man in the second half of his life. who's no longer aspirational and more just trying to use the powers and skills and tools that he's figured out how to work with and to try to make something a little bit bigger and like, dare I say, like, more lasting and meaningful?

Right. Whereas James Cameron took the same opportunity to be like, what if hot, cat, blue, alien people fuck? Well, yes and no, but I mean, I'm more forgiving of those movies too because he's like, we are living amidst an ecological disaster. And I'll make a parable for our times about this disaster. and about the military industrial complex, which I had previously valorized, you know, uncomplicatedly in the past. Sean, don't make me reconsider Avatar. I can't do it.

You know, you can still hate it. You got really close right there. That was impressive. It's the same thing where like, I think a lot of these guys, when we start, when they start thinking about their legacies, they sometimes take swings that are very self-serious. Yes. And that can really backfire. Nolan is the case for me where it's really working.

He's like, what is my life all about? Yeah. And how can I see it through these people? To me is more interesting than I've made a third Batman film. Sure. Put that had Bain in it. I know. You guys remember Bain?

I get it. I like Bain rules. I'm going to end by returning to this, again, this. You don't want the last words of the Bain rules. 15-month project. You can come back. Guess what? You can end on that.

We'll come back to it. Something to think about. CR incepted this idea of like trying to go home, right? And I've been sort of thinking about it. And so thinking about it as it returns to like how it pertains to Oppenheimer and the Odyssey of like not just trying to go home. You can't go home again. So this idea that Robert Oppenheimer took his idea of heaven, which was New Mexico, this like very nostalgic place and made hell of his heaven, like turned it into an inferno. and then made, you know, in the same way that Odysseus is like, I broke the world.

I can't go home again. I'm trying to go home. I don't really want to go home because I've forever changed our society and I can't go home again. So like these last two really being the you can't go home again movies. I think that's incredibly interesting. Yeah. That's a beautiful observation. I love the way that.

But also Bain Rules. Also Bain Rolls. It's something to think about. Your body Robbie our guy is he like He voices that in a way Inside of this question of like what do you what have you brought in the world? Like also what have you what has the impact been on your own circumstance and the thing you cherish?

When Robbie's like you drop a bomb and it falls on the just and the the unjust I don't wish the culmination of three centuries of physics to be a weapon of mass destruction like what are you doing inside of your own life Too? And what is the cost of that? I don't know. There's something I think quite honest about that, that that maybe has more of a hold on people. We wouldn't like to think it, but that probably has more of a hold on people than what is the cost of the thing that you did to the world. And Bain Rolz.

And Bain Roles. Sean Vennacy rules. You guys rule. What a project. What a podcast. Thanks for joining us, bud. When will you come back? Will you come back to talk next year about Oswald with us?

Well, sure. I'll bring my Oswald trading cards for Sean. I'm sorry. Do they show a trailer for that series? Yeah. A little, like a cute little clip. And they gave us trading cards. They're commemorative from that night only.

And Joanna got one. And it was like, I'm going to give it to a stranger. Did Favreau speak of the Mandalorian and Grogu? Did it come up? Didn't come up. He did come out. He said, this is a really personal project. Then Mallory went, aren't they all, John?

And it was the funniest moment of D23 for me. It was really good. Thank you to Sean Fennessee. Thanks, Fed Rock. Thanks, to our team of scientists, Carlos Schiuribog. Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Regan Powell, Jomi Adiron, all played by Oscar-winning actors like Rami Mollick and Casey Affleck and the rest. Gary Olman.

Thanks to Christopher Nolan for making great movies for a couple decades. Thank you, Christopher Nolan. I've always been saying that. What a treat. Always been on the right side of history. And we will be back with Lanterns episode three on Monday. See you soon. Bye.

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