House of R - Our Top Five Miyazaki Films and ‘The Boy and the Heron’

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

A grey heron told once me that Mal and Jo are here to talk all things Miyazaki! They start by discussing Hayao Miyazaki’s newest film, ‘The Boy and the Heron.’ They talk about the themes, the world, and why this was such a personal film for Miyazaki (9:42). Later, they put together a list of their top five Miyazaki films and discuss how each one has impacted them and why they love them so much (50:30). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

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We must protect this world ourselves. Go back. Now! Michael! Michael! You and I aren't friends or allies kids. Don't let go. No matter what. Ready?

You see this world? A gray heron once told me that all gray herons are liars. So is that the truth or a lie? A lie. The truth. I thought we talked to be a lie too. Greetings. And welcome to House of R.

A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only, back to the Parakeet King's Kitchen, but also to our newish House of our podcast feed. Joining me today, asking if I see this world and reminding me there's more work to be done. It's my house of our permanent title.

Co-host. New York Times bestselling author of MCU, the reign of Marvel Studios, Joanna Robinson. What's up bad babies? What a joy to be here with you, Mallory Rubin, today, amongst the soot sprites and the various other little critters of the world to talk about a true genius, a true storytelling genius that we both really like and admire. So what a treat. I'm thrilled.

I can't wait to talk about Miyazaki. I can't wait to talk more about our little. So it's Sprites, who of course I adore, but before we chat about the boy in the heron, before we chat about our top five Miyazaki movies, which is going to be something that we figure out together in the back half of the pod today, before we follow Robert Pattinson's gray hair and into this mystical tower. So quick programming reminders. Got a ringer.com. What a great website programming reminder for you. It's Miyazaki Day on the ringer.com. And there are four, four wonderful pieces waiting for you right now from Daniel Chin, Justin Charity, Zach Cram and Ben Lindberg.

What a time to be a reader of the ringer.com. What a great website. The all-star lineup when talking about animation and anime. I love it. Four fabulous pieces. Check them all out after you listen to this pod. Wonderful. We'll be back with you in mere days.

Joanna, what will we be chatting about on Monday here at the House of Our? It's the last of the 60th anniversary Doctor Who specials this weekend titled The Giggle. So that's it. It's the end of 10 and our 14 and Donna. And it is the intro of Shudigatwa. So we're really excited to meet the 15th Doctor this weekend. and we'll be talking about it on Monday on our last Doctor Who's special podcast until the Christmas special, literally weeks later. It's like we're time traveling.

This is our own TARDIS, this podcast right here. I love it. We'll have another pop for you next week as well. The year-end machine. It churns ever onward. We will be celebrating once again, just as we did last December, our top 10. moments of the year in nerd culture

and fandom and genre storytelling we will be surprising each other in real time with our respective lists we love doing pods like this

we can't wait it's going to be fun a great way to look back at the year the things we've shared together the things we've loved over on the ringerverse

if you are wondering where's this blue eye samurai Godzilla minus one pot I've been hearing about the midnight boys pew pew they're going to have

that for you today they're recording right now we're all recording at the same time. Carlos is here with us today. Steve is with the Midnight Boys. Everybody in the Rearverse family is potting. We're going to have a lot of Friday pods for you. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? I'm so glad you asked. There will not be a gray her in visiting you to guide you

through the podcasting world. So what I suggest you do, and that's good because it's a little scary. What I suggest you do? Just follow the pod. This pod, House of Ar, that pod, ring your reverse. Presti TV pod, trial by content, whatever trial trial time. Holiday trial royal. You're going to want to keep around the rewatchables. You know, there's a lot of on.

If you have yet to hear Joanna say, Merry Christmas at the top of a pod, check out trial by content this week. I literally have no memory of doing that. A Merry Christmas. It was wonderful. Also,

why don't you follow all of us on social at the ringer, ringer verse. Jomey is just, you know, keeping everything bright and lively and festive on all of the feeds. So that's a good way to keep track of everything. And then as ever, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com send us your apple thoughts. What apples are you eating this holiday season? What pickles are you signing your emails with? We would like to know.

Opposandragons at gmail.com. Who thoughts? End of your thoughts. Aquaman thoughts. Where are you on Mallory's insistence that this is going to be the cinematic experience of a lifetime? I'd like to state once again that I do not actually believe that. I don't know. But I just can't wait to podcast from the ocean with you.

You started the bit. I feel like you have to commit to the bit, which is we're all in an Aquaman. Yeah, the bit is podcasting from a pleasure yacht, from a pleasure bar. together. To nails out. Toonails out. Okay. Yeah. Unlike cousin Greg, you know, we'll be ready to go shoeless on the teak. Yeah. My nails will be trimmed and painted a garish color. I love that for us. Wonderful. Great. We're back on the same page. Fantastic.

I still suspect if we dig through the archives of How Samar this year, you will have at one point said that Aquaman was going to be the cinematic experience of a lifetime. I feel like the bit more from this movie is going to be good to talking about this movie. It was on my hype meter. It was on my winter height meter. I'm excited for the movie. You know, I love that for you.

At times, I have been excited for the movie. I really enjoyed the first Aquaman. I have absolutely, sincerely, no expectations for this movie. But I had a blast with the first one. Homesd among us have not thrown our chips behind a questionable entry on a height meter. Certainly I have. It's a proud tradition.

Inextricable. some might say from the core exercise itself. From the process. Yeah, exactly. All right, the last programming reminder before we dive in, it is the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. So today's podcast will feature plot points from the boy in the heron, the newest Miyazaki movie, which released stateside this week. And then as we are chatting about our top five Miyazaki movies and compiling our shared

list and hitting some of the key themes at the center of these beloved films, these cherished creations. Classics. We will be talking about some of the things that happened in those movies. So it's a kind of blanket spoiler warning for Miyazaki's filmography. Proceed with more caution than Panyo did when she caused a tsunami, I guess. That's the advice. But really, that was just all the quest for love.

So join us. Love and like ramen, I think. And, you know, I think those are top priorities in life. Okay. Let's chat about the boy in the heron. This is, Joanna, the 12th film that Miyazaki has directed. Unbelievable. Produced, of course, by Studio Ghibli.

Before we get into some of the themes and ideas at the heart of this lovely movie, Can you give us a little snapshot of the run-up to the film, specifically the retirement talk? Because that is a little bit of a, that's a backdrop that spawned a lot of discussion heading into the movie. And that is not the first time that this has happened. In 2013, Miyazaki swore he was retiring when he made the wind rises. And what was great about that, there was like a whole press conference. And what was great about that was that was that was not the first time. he had announced that he was retiring.

But there's this great quote from 2013 when he says, I know I've said I would retire many times in the past. Many of you must think, oh, once again. But this time I'm quite serious. That was in 2013. 10 years later, he had another story at him. And like, I mean, who begrudges someone coming in and out of retirement? I certainly don't, especially when it's like a master like Miyazaki.

And something that really sapped any of my questions around that. was when I found out how autobiographical this story is. Yeah, tell us about that. Because, you know, there's a lot of parallels between our, you know, this is a story of a boy and his family and war, and this is

reflective of Miyazaki's experience. And so the father figure in the film, you know, works in the airplane industry and Miyazaki's father was the director of Miyazaki airplane. You might know that if you've seen literally any Miyazaki film because planes and flying are a big theme we see everywhere.

His family had to leave the city to go to the countryside during the war. And then there's this mother figure in the film. And Miyazaki has sort of refracted his mother through many of the female characters in his movies. He is constantly reexamining this figure of his mother. It's why a lot of his films are like have young. female protagonist and stuff like that. It's like she was this extremely impactful person and someone who had who experienced illness and all sort of stuff. So an ill or absence or deceased mothers come up a lot in his stuff and that's just something he continues to work through.

But I just think I think it's so understandable if you were like, I'm done. And then you say, oh, but wait, what about the story of me? I've done, I've done, I've touched upon the boy. of my own life. But what about, what if I really dug into me, the master, Miyazaki? So, absolutely. I think this is a completely uncontroversial statement. Miyazaki is one of the true geniuses and great creators and filmmakers and creative minds of our time. And we are like collectively very fortunate to have been able to watch over such a long stretch, all of these missives on the human experience, on different aspects of coming of age and loss and connection.

And, you know, one of the things that we really love to talk about in various pods that we do is like how we as the people who consume something might bring something different to it, depending on where we are in our lives. And Miyazaki's filmography is such a beautiful example of the creator side of that. you bring. And of course, every creator puts part of themselves into the things that they're making, but it is so palpable. It is so inextricable from the text of the thing itself that to feel in every frame what pulled him back in. I mean, I would say like, whether or not the movies were

this deeply personal, we would be fortunate for Miyazaki to continue making films for as long as he felt compelled to do so. But the boy in the heron is so personal. I think that the narrative narratives that were very, like, present in the public discourse heading in the run-up to the film, heading up to the release, which, of course, the movie came out in July in the summer in Japan, and this December releases the state-side English dub release, most personal film. Like, this was just in the air. It was in the ether. It was something people were saying.

It was something people were hearing. Well, what did that mean? Because all of the films, to your point, right, about, like, the mother figure, for example, have had a deeply personal element. But you watch this, and it is so. powerfully informed by somebody reflecting back on the earlier stages and key crucial moments, not only in his life, but in a young person's life. What happens to people as they grow?

What challenges do you face? And then what do you do when you are confronting your own self-doubt and your own longing? It was beautiful. I think that the idea of who we are when we meet these films and how we're. we change over the years. Something for me just very personally is like when I started watching Miyazaki films, I was not someone who thought of myself as like a creator. And now, you know, I don't create beautiful animated films, but I make podcasts and I wrote a book and stuff like that.

So like I belong loosely to the large umbrella under the large total umbrella of creator. And so his examinations of, and it's so present in this film. and pops up again and again in his filmography of like, what does it mean to be a creator? You know, we talked about that a lot and we talked about Tolkien of like that idea of sub-creation. Professor Tolkien, always welcome. Always welcome to the party.

But like there's all these different kinds of creations, be it like the creation of beautiful food or, you know, or the creation of flight itself or whatever it is, there is this examination of that and it's, It's pretty literalized in this film. I know we're not necessarily yet into the specifics of the film, but there's a character of the film that literally creates worlds and is at the end of his life and his creative juices.

And is seeking to pass on the building, quite literally the building blocks of creation. I mean, it is also very like Logan Roy, if you think, because in the use the word successor, number of times, right? So you think about succession and you think about his inability to retire here and hand it over to the next generation to create is very Logan Roy

is very Bob Eager of like, I'm done, no wait, no one can do it like me, I'm back. And that's okay because, like, Miyazaki I, in the prep for this, I watched like a couple different little like mini docs about him and he's like he's got this like genial sort of like grandfatherly figure, the snowy white beard, all of that

is part of him, but he's also a very precise taskmaster of an artist demanding this film took how many years is it? Like seven years to make this film, right? There's a quote for him where he says

we have 60 animators, we're only able to come up with one minute of animation in a month. That math doesn't really work out for me, but like, sure. But there's footage of him that exists out there of him like reprimanding artists that work for him who haven't quite risen to his standards. And so when you are a master working on that level, an artist working on that level, there may be some ego that comes along with it.

And I don't begrudge him that of like no one can do it. No one can create worlds like I do. I can't hand the creation of other worlds off to other people. It has to be me. And thinking about this movie and this idea of like, it's finally time for me to tell the closest version to my own story. I mean, he didn't have a, you know, talking gray hair and as far as I know in his own life story. But it reminds me a lot of the interviews that I watched and read and listened to with Steven Spielberg last year when he put out the fablements.

And he talked about like how he was afraid to make that movie for so long that he made movies around it, like close encounters. E.T. There's all these movies that sort of like touch on in a fantastical way. his autobiographical story, but it wasn't until he was like in his 70s and like going through COVID that he was like, I'm ready to make the fablemen's. And so it's like, Miyazaki's like, I'm ready to make the boy in the heron.

And here we are. That's so interesting too in the context of, and again, we issued a spoiler warning, but we're going to start getting here into some of the more specific elements of the story. But thinking about that end note, when Mahito makes the decision to return, to leave the tower,

to leave this alternate world and return to his life. And the Greyharen tells him that he's not going to remember that eventually, like, in time, he will cease to hold on to the particulars of this experience. And it's interesting

to think about that through the lens of what you were just saying about a Spielberg or a Miyazaki reaching a certain stage in their career where they are ready maybe to look back at and interrogate, like with the context of a full life lived, something that had receded and faded over time. And like, what new perspective do they bring to unlock some level of understanding from that point in their lives and think about how it informed everything that came after? That's such a beautiful

connection and interpretation. I had a slightly different interpretation of the ending where I thought, because Maito, like, cheated and took something with him that unlike his mother and unlike other people experienced this, he was actually going to remember. I think so too. And like maybe that's why Miyazaki feels that he is able to do this. Like when we say he doesn't have a gray hair and who knows, maybe he did. Right. And maybe he had a little block in his pocket that at some point he wasn't supposed to take. And that's why he's able to make these stories and take us into these portal worlds because he had that little brick in his pocket. That's a fun thing to think about. Yeah. Joe, we're talking about this now because this is the week, as noted, that the film released stateside with the English dub. But you want to give a little snapshot of the movie's success to this point? Because again, this has been out for half a year. We talked about this actually. I believe it was the hype meter, the fall winter hype meter episode because we were talking about looking forward to Boy in the Heron, that the Japanese release, there was no. nothing ahead of it. No trailer, no promotion. There were no details on what awaited the viewing public. And not that people would not have flocked to the theater immediately to see a

newbie-saki movie widely described as his most personal creation. But people didn't know what awaited them, which is just such a fascinating thing. And I think genuinely, like, impossible for us to imagine based on the way that movies are marketed and we see, like, so many frames. of key beats of stories before we actually sit down to watch a film. It worked. I was reading this hilarious article that was about the agitation on behalf of like Japanese film marketing agencies that they were like, well, we hate that this exists

because it makes it seem like our job is nonsense. And I love that. But yeah, this is an extremely expensive film to make. It took seven years. producer Toshio Suzuki said, I think, quote, I think we spent more money making the boy in the hair than any other movie that's ever been made in Japan probably, which feels like some hyperbole to me,

but it might not be wholly outside the realm of possibility. But as of December 3rd, that's the latest date I was able to pull, the film has made $84.1 million globally. That's before its U.S. premiere, right? So if it's a smash-a-hia here as well, you know, that's incredible numbers for, an animated film. So yeah, and off the,

even if you watch the American teaser, because the Americans did get a couple trailers, the main one they put out, was more a montage of the greatest hits of Miyazaki's filmography before you got to like anything from this film itself. You see clips of like, you know, Nossica and Howl and Spirited Way

and all this sort of stuff like that. It's like someone cut together a beautiful, connection of like all the hugs that has happened, all the things that have happened. Like you've been with this storyteller for decades of your life. Here is his, you know, masterwork, his most, as you said, personal story ever. And I just thought it was really interesting, like how much they're using just the brand itself, the man himself to sell the film. And listen, when you mean some of these movies, you get to do that. Yeah, exactly.

All right, let's talk about what we thought of the film. We're going to hit some of the key themes and ideas at the heart of the story, the tone overall, Joe. Give us a taste. What did you think of the movie? How did you enjoy The Boy in the Haren? You and I had very different viewing experiences, and I'm going to let you speak to yours. But, like, I watched the film at home.

Unfortunately, I'm sure this is not something Miyazaki wants to hear in chunks, which is unfortunately sometimes how we have to consume things when we're trying to consume as much as we consume to podcast at the ringer that happens sometimes. And I watched the sub, not the dub, meaning I watched it in Japanese those subtitles. And so I didn't hear some of the English dub actors that Mal will be able to speak to. But I would have done an entire podcast on the R-Path's performance, which is frankly astonishing. I'm quite jealous that you got the full R-Paths. experience and I didn't. But I hope this will not get me kicked off of this Miyazaki podcast

when I confessed or out of like the ability to talk about Japanese animation in general. I, just because I started watching these films when I was younger, I have always watched dubbed Miyazaki. I never watch it in the original language. That's not true of later anime that, you know, like your name or Susame, like a couple that I've really enjoyed that have come out more recently. I watch the original Japanese, but I don't know. There's just something. Miyazaki as it was like distributed by Disney in the U.S. I watched, you know, and had a bunch of actors that we know and love doing the racials.

Prishyel as hell, I mean. Icon. Kirsten does his Kiki, like, you know. Yeah. So I think I'm just quite more used to watching Miyazaki with an English dub. So I, and watching it at home in chunks, I struggled a bit, I would say, for the first, like, hour and change. And then I got really swept away by the last, I would say, 45 minutes.

And I would say unlike some of the other Miyazaki films that like take place in a portal world or in a, you know, whatever, maybe because of the autobiographical element, this spends a lot. There's a lot of like throat clearing before we get to like fully immersed in this wondrous world. and so I will just say that the back half worked for me so much better than the front half. And I don't, you know, this is a question we had later in the doc, but I'll just say it now. Like, I don't think I would put this in my top five. But I think it is very, it's extremely poignant. It's extremely interesting to me as a sort of skeleton key to help me better understand an artist that I really admire. And I really appreciate it for that.

I find, and maybe it would have been different if it had been voiced by R. Pats, I find the hair and character, very challenging, personally, in my experience, watching it. Yeah. You didn't enjoy the human face slowly emerging from inside of the flight suit seven? Genuinely, like, genuinely horrifying to me. So, yeah, it's a, it's complicated. It's a mixed experience for me, but I appreciate that I didn't watch it under ideal conditions, and I am planning to go see it in the theater with the dub so I can get, like, the full

immersive experience and maybe I will come out with a completely different POV. Mel, tell me about your, you went last night. How was that? I did. I did. I'm fresh off of viewing. Yeah. Yeah, I think we are both generally with foreign language shows and films.

Team sub, not team, dub. That's generally our relationship. Similarly, with Miyazaki movies, I like to ultimately watch them both ways. and it is always really fun to see the English dub. And like I already said Christian Bail as howl. Christian Bail, of course, is in The Boy and Aaron as well as Mahito's father. That's a fascinating one too to think of like, it reminds me of the song Exploder, Kat Stevens episode on father and son and how he like when he re-recorded the song later in life,

he put more of himself into the father versus than the song. son and like just an incredible podcast about one of my favorite songs and just thinking about that with Christian Bailey like being the precocious young wizard who is confronting his own challenges and then inhabiting the role of the adult who like doesn't understand what the youngster in the film is going through experiencing yeah is interesting so perhaps informed by your experience I was able to benefit from like this is receiving updates from you about you about you your experience. And Thursday night rolled around. Time to prep. Check those local showtimes. I was like, I can do it. Let's go. And I was able to head to the theater and watch the movie.

And it was beautiful. It was beautiful. I will also spoil now ahead of our eventual top five that it is not, I don't think it cracks my top five, but it is right on the fringe for me. it's one of two films, which we'll talk about later, that I think is competing for that fifth spot, or I guess one of three films competing for, yeah. I think I had seven movies and contention for five spots. First of all, the visuals. You already talked about what went into them. I mean, these movies are always beautiful and magnetic,

and they suck and pull us in, and we get lost in the world, not only because of the story, but because of how fully realized they are. I thought this was astounding visually. I mean, in part, that opening stretch with the hospital engulfed in flame. The fire, yeah. And the way that we flash back to it and see Mahito, like, working his way through that engulfing fire.

It was just like gorgeous. Yeah, the blur of to invoke his, like, panic and the chaos of it. Yeah, the way that that kind of fog then is like hanging over. his experience of what he is trying to push beyond, like this literal and also this like metaphorical veil that is hanging over him in the story as he seeks some new understanding. So I thought it was just visually like utterly arresting and gorgeous. I thought the story was beautiful. You know, it's interesting we both rewatched quite a, quite a few movies in the last like week or two. And there's a part of me, I kind of watch

them based on like, hey, I'm going to start with movie X because I want to start with movie X, right? And there's a part of me that wishes in hindsight. And I had, let me just say, a fucking blast. And it was a joy we both had a great time. There's a part of me that wishes now in hindsight I had gone chronologically. Yeah. And like tracked that tonal evolution. Maybe that'll be a project for us at a different point in time for like an anniversary or something.

Have you ever done that with a, like with a filmmaker, a filmography? Ooh, that's a good question. I was just thinking, did I watch this was, this is not a filmmaker. I was just thinking, did I watch the Harrison Ford movies chronologically? But I didn't. I don't think you did. I definitely didn't. I watched them on the scale of hotness, you know?

I, um, one summer years ago, I did it with a friend of mine, we did all of the Cohen Brothers movies in chronological order. That was like really a tremendously informative experience to watch artists evolve that way. I really recommend that as an exercise. I love that. I'm sure I've done that at some point, but cannot in real time right now. Like, just for fun,

I can't think of what it would have been. But regardless, we should do it at some point for a project. Sounds like a delight. Let's do it. Carlos, lock it in. We'll circle back in 2007. But the reason I mention that is because,

and there are like, there are plenty of Miyazaki movies that are incredibly dark. We're going to talk about a couple of them later today. It's not like everything is buoyant and cheerful and jubilant, there is a lot of heartache that the characters are confronting

or challenges that they are seeking to overcome. That's part of why they're such rich texts. But the boy in the heron is such a deeply contemplative and sad film. And there are moments of hope and breakthrough and discovery

and epiphanies, revelations, joy, and possibility. But it is a, movie about loss. It's a movie about grief. It's a movie about coping and like coming to terms with the loss and the change around you. And I love that, and we can maybe just segue from this into talking about some of the themes at the heart of the story for a few more minutes before we had our top five. I loved the structure of how the film examined that idea because we get this deeply personal lens. Mahito has lost his mother.

He is struggling with his grief in the most central relationship in his life. And it is at scale. Like the way that the war is destroying and informing life and the nature of life in this community. So you see the hospital fire. We have our relocation, right? The family moves to the countryside. The opening of the suitcase, right? Like moments where we see what it means to hold a can of corned beef in your hand for the first time and who knows how long.

And then we shift back to something that feels more personal. Mikeos' first day at his new school and the bullying, right, and feeling like I cannot, I cannot find a purchase here. I cannot find a foothold. And how could I in this new life when I don't feel like I have any purchase in my own sense of in my own house and my own family, right? I am at sea, and so I feel like I'm at sea wherever I am. And it's pretty early in the movie when he's making his way back from that first day of school and the fight and picks up a rock on the side of the road and bashes himself in the head. And the way that that idea resurfaced later near the end of the movie in the conversation with

his grand uncle, and he had, Mike Toa called out the malice that he sensed in the story. in the bricks, and then the way that he touches the scar in his head and talks about the malice in himself, like, I just thought that that was, I just thought that that was beautiful. It was so poignant. And there are a lot of ideas that play in the movie as there always are in a Miyazaki film, but that was like really, I was thinking about it a lot after I got home and when I woke up this morning and like, I would, I woke up at 5 a.m. And I'm thinking about that touching the scar and talking about the malice within.

And it's like, I think it's going to be the kind of film that really has its, has its roots Sydney for a while. That moment is so specific. I haven't seen any interviews to this fact, but that moment was so specific that it feels like this is something Miyazaki might have done as a kid. Again, I have no evidence of that. But I love the way it works on like a number of levels. I love the way then that in tending to that wound, they have to shave part of his head.

And so it gives him this sort of like wild lost boy look as he entered. the portal world, you know what I mean? And it just like gives him this extra otherworldly look as he's adventuring around, but it's all part of this own like self-inflicted wound. And even the function of the bandage is something that of course protects him heels, but is also like hiding the truth in a way. And I love to your point about like the shadow of the war over the story. I'm thinking a lot. I was thinking I already invoked Tolkien and we'll talk about him again later when we talk about trees. But because all these themes of love of nature, industrialism,

like all this various stuff that crops up of Miyazaki has also been stuff that we talked about a lot when we covered Tolkien and discussed Rings of Power. What a great time I had talking about Rings of Power with you. What a great time of my life. Genuinely one of my favorite things we've ever done. Same. I was just thinking, I was just thinking how. special at it, I mean,

unfortunate that it's the case, but how special and interesting it is that we've got these two master creators in Tolkien and Miyazaki, it's certainly not the only creators to ever talk about the experience of World War II, and Tolkien also talked about World War I, but this idea that Tolkien was a father when World War II happened, and

Miyazaki was a young boy, but for them to both take out of the war, these similar meditations on, like, fantasy, and nature and destruction and all this sort of stuff is really interesting to me. And also just like how the West, how these Western stories that we enjoy, how it actually is just a universal experience, like how much the idea of like a child moving, going to the

countryside because of war and experiencing something fantastical. I mean, that's Narnia. That's Narnia. You know, that's Narnia, but like it's also this. There's this great quote on that front. There's this incredible quote he had from one of the docs that I was watching when he was talking about. He talks about people make aircrafts a lot because this was his father and his uncle's business, Miyazaki airplanes, right? So he says, you know, people who design airplanes and machines, no matter how much they believe what they do is good. The winds of time eventually turn them into tools of industrial civilization. It's never unscathed. They're a cursed dream, animation two. Like, he's just like drawing this line between the creation that his father made, ultimately is war machines that is central to the story,

The Wind Rises, which he thought was his last film, 2013. But this idea that he's like drawing a line between that, this cursed dream of making airplanes that are turned into instruments of war and making animation, making these worlds. I'm, I'm, I will be thinking for a long time about Miyazaki calling his, his life's work, animation, a cursed dream. That is some heavy shit. It's, it's interesting. It makes me think about the, the function and deployment of the tower in this story and that idea more broadly that you've been citing of building and sustaining a world. You know, we learn over the course of the film that this is like a meteor, right? This crashed, it landed, it grew, it bloomed,

and these tunnels spawned and at some point certain people gained access and understanding and other people either obscured or lost any sense of the true nature of the thing. But the reason that that popped into my mind hearing you say that is because like I think we often, and we talked about us in our tropes course episode on Portal Worlds, how this is not always the case, but I think often we, we being like the reader, the viewer, seek out a portal world story because there is adventure, a quest, a journey of discovery, new possibility. And that's all true here, too, but I was really struck watching the movie by how inescapable, the idea of danger was,

that the tunnels were meant to be avoided, that the fantastical, the magical was also something, perhaps, to fear what happens if you sense the malice in the blocks. That idea, there was that really harrowing moment between the Grand Uncle and Mahito about that, like, just one more day concept,

like that you are seeking to maintain something that has no permanence. Of course, the role of, I mean, really, all of the birds from the heron who we, you know, warm to, despite his incredibly creepy head over time, to the pelicans, to the murderous parakeets who are seeking to chop up and eat our visitors. When Mahito discovers his aunt, Natsuko, in the birthing room, that also feels like representative to me, because this is like a breakthrough for him, right?

This divide. Okay, my mother has died. I am mourning. My father has moved on. My father has married my mother's sister. And is having a new child and we have a new home and he is forging a new family. And I cannot accept it. And every time I look at her, I see my mother's face and I'm reminded not of what we have gained, but of what I've lost.

And she is seeking to provide him comfort and a sense of belonging. and part of his journey is to say, I will go find her. I will make sure she's okay. And this is not where they end up, but their first moment of being present with each other again is for her to shout that she hates him. Right.

So every portal you open, every new door, every veil you move beyond in this world, maybe you have a moment like the parakeets where you say like, is this paradise? And that could be it. Maybe you find something that scares you or unsettles you or that jeopardizes the permanence that you're trying to establish.

I like how in some of these Porter World stories that we've talked about, that was a really fun episode that we did, the Treps Course episode. It was great. Had a blast. These portal worlds have a way of peeling back layers of artifice and showing you, forcing you to confront your real truth or forcing someone you know to reveal a truth to you. So this idea that like Natsiko and Maito have something in common, which is like friction around this new dynamic and grief over the loss of a shared family, shared loved one, his mother, her sister, etc. But also there's this portal world idea that you see in, I know, a film I'm eager to show you one day, Labyrinth or a book that it draws inspiration from out there. Out there over yonder. in those stories, it's, well, in Labyrinth specifically, it's a sister who resents and hates her baby brother,

but goes to rescue him from the goblin king. And this idea of like a family member you've rejected, you resent because it is forcing you to grow up in your own role or alter your own role in the family or all this sort of stuff. But once you get into the portal world, that person is the us versus the them. And then all of a sudden these like family ties start sort of tightening up. And you're like, oh, no, this is my pack.

This is who I protect. And so Natsako becomes, goes from enemy to, you know, family inside of that portal world. And that's an important part of that story. This film also has a trip that I love, which is usually it's adults. in this case it's a boy, but meeting your parent when they were younger. Yes. Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute.

Which is in Field of Dreams, a movie that we shared love of ours. Do you think about Tony, meeting Howard Stark? You know what I mean? Like, meet your parent when they were young full of, you know, Vim and Vigor or whatever it was,

idealism, all this sort of stuff. Meet your parent when they were making casual plans with Zola. Yeah. and have a game of catch with them. And I think that there's something so beautiful about Maito, someone who has had to lose and grieve his mother, getting another glimpse of her,

getting to know a part of her he never got to know in the first place, which is what she was like when she was his age, essentially. And also that the thing that the grand uncle says about like this world has one more day also gave me sort of like inception vibes in inception when like Cobb is sort of feels the pull of his lost family inside of a world that doesn't exist in this idea of like Mahito, do you return or do you stay? You know, his mother is like, we got to go. I got to go. But there's that like, no, I don't want to leave you. I've already lost you. I don't want to lose you again.

And that's some of the most poignant stuff in the whole film obviously. It was, I loved this aspect of like connection across time, but also then enhanced understanding, not only of like somebody else's experience in life and past, his mother in this case, but also an experience shared and gaining the sense that you have an experience shared after you have lost somebody and being able to carry that with you is just so beautiful. He didn't just realize that he is his mother. He realized that they had both made their way into the tower, into this alternate existence, spent time there, learned new things, discovered something about themselves and about creation and about what it means to choose to return. And so the fact that she

had like shown him the door back to his world quite literally, right? But then much of more broadly, given him, helped him unlock this clarity because I think like that question of, if you, more broadly with portal stories,

like if you escape the horror or heartache, whatever the case may be, of your own world, do you necessarily find peace somewhere else? Or do you find some sort of clarity?

Like, do you achieve some sort of apotheosis that allows you to find balance? and like a new footing. And appreciate what you took for granted back home. Exactly. And so it's not just that she showed him where the door was. So he knew what Mark to make his way back through.

It said he felt ready to walk through it again. It felt ready to greet his father and the world on the other side. That really pain-drenched world, like a world that had been defined for him by loss, right? By the things that were missing and to choose to make his way back to the things that were present. And so, like, that makes me think, of course, of what the film was, the title changed. Like, what was the, the film is not called The Boy in the Haren in Japan. It's called How Do You Live? And that's based on the 1937 novel, How Do You Live, which plays a role in the movie.

This is the book that Mahito discovers when he knocks over the stack and he's making his way through and he picks it up and he sees that his mother has written him a message. This is one more portal, ultimately. And we love that, of course, the idea of Astoria is a portal, right? to some connection with a person who meant something meaningful and to you and a bond that you felt deeply and to find a new way to discover that again. But what I love about that so much, and we see him reading it and we see him crying over it. And it is like such an anguish-inducing moment in the film. And what I love about that is that the movie, even independent of what Miyazaki has said about this, I'll share a quote from a New York Times interview in a second here,

It is just so clear in the text of the film that the question doesn't have an answer, that the entire point is exploring the question every step you take, every day of your life. So there is a beautiful New York Times piece. And I'll read the kicker. I'll read the closer here, the closing paragraph. It is time. Miyazaki robs the top of his head and lights a cigarette. One of his signature king-sized charcoal-filled seven stars. I am allowed one last question.

The title of your next film is, How do you live? I say, will you give us the answer? The smile comes only after he speaks. I am making this movie because I do not have the answer. And you feel that in every frame of the film. I love that.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Anything else, Joe. Shout out to the Warawara. They were great. Very cute. It was very sad with the Pelicans ate all of them. Maybe think a little bit of soul,

the Pixar film's soul and like the idea of yeah I wrote on my notes be born I wrote adipose I was in Dr. who wrote they looked just like the adipose for me I was just like Kirby this is these are these are real yeah real Kirby like to me but adipose great stuff

our pets what can I say about I watched I watched the trailer so I saw like because Steve Allman our producer was like asking me if I was watching the sub or the dub and I said I was watching the sub and he was like

oh they're missing the R-Pass experience and I was like yeah well I can't imagine R-R-Pats is doing this and he's like no R-Pats is definitely doing that and then I you know so it's like he is matching the energy of the Japanese actor who who voiced the heron

in the sub and so I which is Masaki Suda and so I watched the trailer and I was like holy Hell, Pats is doing it. I love, I mean, threw himself fully into this experience.

It is truly remarkable. Amazing. I love post-Twilight, Pats. Like, every choice he makes. It's always the right one. He's like, what if I'm just a little weirdo? What if I'm just a little weird guy? I love it.

The best. Okay. Any other Boy in the Heron thoughts, Joe, before we build our top five Miyazaki movies? I have a few little things, but I kind of just want to fold them into the other movies we're going to talk about because I think they just sort of support this idea of these tropes or consistent story threads that are on me as like is mine. Okay.

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Do you want to say, here's what I recommend for number one, here's what I recommend for number five, or should we go through the contenders and then lock the order at the end? What's your preference? What's your preferred method here? Should we start at the bottom or start at the top? Start number five, right, to go to number one? Let's start at number five. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your nominee for the fifth spot here? What's five for you?

I think what happened. We kind of came up with like five films. We just don't really know what the order is, like full transparency. And I think we agree that there were like three that were undeniably had to be in the top five. And what I think is that the other two are our kind of personal favorites. And because when you make a list like this, you have to have like the Stone Cold Classics and then you're like little personal fave. So I think number five, at the other, I think. either has to be my personal fave, which is Kiki's delivery service, or your personal fave, I think, which is Totoro. Or I don't know if that's your personal fave, but that's one that you shouted out is, like, very special to you. I absolutely love my name for Totero. And I'm fine with putting Kiki below. I think Toto, because it's like, it's the, you know, logo of the studio.

Like, it is very important. But I think Kiki can check in as high as three, honestly. My feeling is one and two are set. It's just a question of the order. There's a one, two. There has to be. I agree. Four or five?

I could be talked into like a number of orders here. I could be. I'm open. I'm open-minded. Let's put Kiki at five. I think it's fine. Okay. All right.

Before we talk about why, before we talk about why Kiki is a five, I almost texted you this the other day, but I wanted to save it for the pod. You and Adam have been through a lot. you had a journey with the Doctor Who experience. And some of Adam's feedback about 10. It was a rift.

And I'm here to tell you with joy in my heart that you two are back. You've never been more back. Are we aligned? Are our chakras align? Our star signs align on Kiki? He said when we were rewatching all of these that he thinks Kiki is his favorite. Yeah. Hell yeah.

And I was like, I just simply cannot wait to tell Joanna this. Kiki's Delivery Service. Yes. 1989. A fine film to watch any time of year, but I like to watch it around Halloween. Because it's about a little witch and her beautiful black cat. And obviously, I mean, like, I cannot.

I kind of cat. I cannot, in good faith, tell you that the high level of cat content in this movie. and Little Black Cat content is not partially responsible for my fondness with this movie. But, like, there are worse reasons to love a movie. Gigi's an absolute legend, an icon. I love this film so much. There's a certain, like, we kind of identified some certain tropes to put with, like, each film. Yeah, what feels like the core trope or you?

Of Kiki. I'm going to shock you and smuggle one in here before we go. to like the main one here. And I just want to talk about this. Like, I think one of my favorite reflections on what it means to be a creator moments comes in this film when Kiki has lost her groove, cannot fly, is grounded. And this artist that she has befriended, Ursula, voiced in the dub by Junie Grawfloe, has this whole conversation with Kiki about how to get her her mojo going again, right? And she talks about being a painter. And Kiki says, without even thinking about it, I used to be able to fly. Now I'm trying to look inside myself to find out how I did it, but I just can't figure it out. And Ursula says, you know, could be you working on it too hard. Maybe you should just take a break. Stop trying. Take long walks. Look at the scenery. Doze off at noon. Don't even think about flying. And then pretty soon you'll be flying again. When I was your age, I'd already decided to become an artist. I love to paint so much. I paint all day until I fell asleep right on my easel. And then one day, for some reason, I just couldn't paint anymore. I tried and tried, but nothing.

I did seem to do any good. These were all copies of paintings I'd seen somewhere before and not very good copies either. I felt like I'd lost my ability. But then I found the answer. You see, I hadn't figured out what or why I wanted to paint. I had to discover my own style. When you fly, you rely on what's inside of you, don't you? Trusting your spirit. That's exactly what I'm talking about. The same spirit is what makes me paint, makes your friend bake. But we need each to find our own inspiration, Kiki. Sometimes it's not easy. And so I was thinking, about that a lot in re-watching this, that whole sequence, and I allotted it, it's long, but I snips some things out, but like, thinking about Miyazaki going through cycles his life, I'm

sure, where he is just sort of like, I have nothing, I have no inspiration. Time to retire. It's 2013. I've made this, like, cool historical film about flight and Japanese history and the war, and it's an ode to my father, an ode to the real creators and all this sort of stuff. I'm done. I've nothing left in me, no juice. And then he, he dozed off at noon, took long walks, did all this stuff. And he's like, oh, wait. Ready to fly again. I'm ready to fly.

So I love that. The main trope I kind of thought we might want to talk about here is this idea that crops up a lot, which is like children, literal children in love. Like, he's a very real. Big part of Pano. Ponyo is like, these are babies and their love is like determining the world. Like, it's wild to me. But romance runs throughout, you know, he's a very romantic storyteller.

But this idea of like children in love, you know, because I think you get it a bit and it's inspirited away as well and all this stuff like that. I like how seriously it takes the emotions of young children. And that is like a big key, I think, to why these movies hit so well with people of all ages, especially children. It's like your grief, your love, your whatever it is. your imagination. It's real. The things you imagine are real. Your experience is completely valid.

Yeah. About how young you are. It's not like, oh, young love. It's just sort of like, oh, love. Here it is. So here's the legend Kirsten Dunst and a young Matthew Lawrence giving us a little

Kiki and Tombo. Carlos will you play this clip? What happened? Tombo, are you okay? Yeah. Are you? I'm okay. What are you laughing at?

Do I really look that funny? I'm sorry, but when we flew up, I was so scared. Yeah, me too. Was it your magic that made us stay up? I'm not sure. Anything's possible. First of all, Kirsten Dents is so good as Kiki. Like, so good.

I'm just imagining her, tiny little her, like doing that absolutely unhinged laughter in the sound booth and it's just like sending me. But when she's laughing, they're having this like, they've crashed. They're having this like joyous, oh my God, we almost died moment. And like in that exchange, she says she has this like very vulnerable. I'm sorry, but when we flew up, I was so scared. It's this very like vulnerable connection moment. And then this like shared joy and laughter, this shared joy of flight.

Kiki loses her groove because she's like embarrassed in front of Tombo's friends. like it's a very like girl coming of age sort of story. The big moment, the big ability to fly again is so she can rescue him and save him and all this or something like that. And the closing is them flying together him and his little bike plane in her on her broom. And it's just sort of like, it's not the only, you know, there's like friendships and all this community and all these important connections in this film. But like sweet little Tombo who's just like in the face of her disdain, just like try to invite her to

parties and like just standing under the umbrella in the rain for a little sweetheart hours on end i just think it's very sweet i love this movie yeah this is a beautiful film i i love it as well it's just incredibly charming and and moving and tender and you know i love it's a it's a great it's a great clip to play and sound like to highlight because like i think so much of the movie is about I mean, it's obviously about identity more broadly, but so much of it is about seeking your independence, right? Like the story begins with Kiki setting out, leaving home. This is the night.

The moon is right. Like, oh, the broom I built on my own isn't sufficient. I'll take yours. What does it look like to become your own person? And when you're carrying on and inheriting a legacy, how do you make room for your own version of the thing inside of that? And, you know, Kiki has, of course, Gigi is this beloved and wonderful companion with her the entire time right there on her shoulder or the handle of the broom, you know, never more than

a few feet away. But this is her quest, right, to like move into a new phase of her life. I will find the town that needs me. I will start my own life. I will take the money that I have in my hand and go buy groceries. and then I will have to confront what it means when I realize that I'm vulnerable and I'm uncertain about how I'm going to continue to do that. I lost my confidence. I don't fit in.

Like, I want to be in this town and they're not welcoming me. Okay, I've found someone who will. I have now a sense of belonging and safety and refuge in this beautiful bakery in my own little room and I wake up to the smell of warm, fresh bread. The dream. Truly the dream. I'm like maybe minus the shared bathroom truly the dream. Other than that, great. Pancakes every morning, I'm in.

I do. But it's not easy. Like, doesn't feel comfortable around Tombo's friends. The first mission, the toy falls are always these new challenges. And I love the conversation you said with Ursula. And the way that the quest to find your purpose is always entwined with doubt. When you lose the ability to fly, when you lose the ability to hear, hear what Gigi is saying to you, you have to find the ability to embrace that your confidence

and your skills and the things that make you you are there. You didn't lose them. You just have to regain your tether to them. And so I love that a story that is so much about your sense of self and forging your sense of self and seeking to like carve out your own place in the world, where you want to be, it's about independence, but it doesn't mean you have to be alone. And so for them to have this beautiful moment and forge this relationship

for there to be friendship and romance and love and a sense of belonging inside of that heightened sense of self, it's just a really, like, inspiring story. It's a great one. All right, number five, it's locked. It's locked. Should we just say now that the movie that didn't make the top five that got bumped by Kiki making it at five is, is Ponyo?

This is the, this is the closest to making the top five for us that didn't make it in. Yeah, Ponyo is a delight. Wonderful. Absolutely. What a joy. What a joy. All right. Four, I think we're talking about two movies for three and four, and it's a question of the order.

We're talking about Totoro. and we are talking about Princess Mononoque, which is an incredible movie that we have not discussed or alluded to much yet today a little bit. I am completely open on the order here. I would probably have Princess Mononoke at four and Totoro at three, but if that feels high for you for Totoro, we can flip them. No, I think my sense of, my inflated sense of Princess Mononouke is informed by how important it is in like my group of friends. Like my goddaughter went as Princess Mononoke when she was like really tiny at Halloween. Like it's like a really, we love wolf girls, you and I both.

I actually know I love a wolf and I love a wolf girl. But I'm more than happy to put Mornicket for. Okay, let's do it. So we have our number four. A beautiful film from 1997, an incredibly dark and intense movie. This is one that would,

if you're a youngster and you're making your way through the filmography, there's going to be some startling moments here. A lot of decapitations, a lot of severed limbs, a lot of demon blood emerging from the pores of... Oh, and like, wormball. building bores.

Tentacles. Yearning, yearning tendrils of demon blood. Yeah. It's tough. Demon blood distends wetly. It does. Joanna,

tell us about why you love this movie, why it made your top five, and what theme slash tropeto feels like it's most central to you here? Well, fun fact about this movie is that Neil Gaiman wrote the English dub of this film. And that was,

that was, kind of not known for a very long time because his name got taken off of it for weird Hollywood reasons. Kind of iconically horny. We got a bunch of like former sex workers who are just sort of like hanging on them and they're like barely their kimonos and just talking about how hot they think Ashitika is and stuff like that. So great stuff. You're not handsome. You're gorgeous. Yes. Genuinely spooky. We have a lot of little spirits all the time.

But the Kadama with their little heads. The sound effect, too, of the... Genuinely scary. Gear turning. I was curious that Mononoke had inspired Georgia Armarin at all, but Thrones comes out just one year before Princess Mononoke comes out. So I don't think we can claim that, like, like Aria was inspired by.

San here, but the clear, it had to go somewhere. It could have gone in a number of movies. We could definitely talk about it in Totoro, but this is maybe the clearest Miyazaki has ever gotten talking about the theme of environmentalism, love of nature, skepticism of industrialism, that classic Tolkien content. Carlos, will you play a clip star featuring a very scary Jillian Anderson as a wolf?

The trees cry out as they die, but you cannot hear them. I lie here. I listen to the pain of the forest and feel the ache of the bullet in my chest. And I dream of the day when I will finally crunch that gunwoman's head in my jaws. Moro, why can't the humans in the forest live together? Why can't we stop this fighting now? The humans are gathering for the final battle. The flames of their guns will burn us all.

You know, for kids. Yes. That's a lot. But yeah, this, you know, by the way, I think, I mean, Jillian Anderson is really good in this, Billy Bob Thornton in the English dub, Billy Bob Thornthorpe, blah. My MVP might be Mini Driver,

who is just like an excellent, villain just dripping with disdain. Billy Bob is great, though I will say doing this rewatch, there were a couple. It's almost like you're just like, maybe this is just my personal burden. I was like, I cannot stop thinking that I'm listening to Billy Bob. I have the same experience actually with Liam Nissen and Ponyo. It's just like, that's Liam Neeson. But yeah, you see this again and again in Miyazaki films. in Howell, there's like the war machines. You know, there's just like, it comes up again and again of like this beautiful.

No one does like, it's like Terrence Malick and Miyazaki for like gently waving grass that will just like transport you to another time zone. Like it's just like the beautiful depiction of like serene forest spirits and beautiful gleaming water and like lush foliage and all this sort of stuff in contrast to the. choking black smoke and just like evil, industrial invasion. Again, this is like classic Tolkien and classic Miyazaki. Yeah. I love that you call out the blades of grass

because like the way that you feel it in your bones when we zoom in on the thundering hooves, tamping down every blade of grass. And like the way that you were confronted constantly by the toll that the conflict and the land is taking on the land itself or the spirits that roam. And I love, you know, I think Ashataka is one of my favorite Miyazaki characters. And I love like the way that we start with this curse, this demon curse. And then this quest that we set out on to find the Great Forest Spirit.

and are constantly watching the seesaw of fear and possibility. Because the quest is about the certainty of death and doom, right? This peril has set in, much as it has on the land and the environment around. But there is this strength and this connection and this connection. heightened sense of attunement to the world around Ashitaka that this demon curse, repeatedly referred to as a demon curse, has granted him. And I think that's a fascinating way to, like, assess the nature of connection to the world around you.

And the complex morality of the film, you know, because even, like, you have, you have a character like Lady Aboshi who is one of the humans who is, like, leading this assault, right? The humans who are exacting their toll on the land around them and harming and damaging the environment around them. And there's a part of you that thinks about Iron Town and is inclined to say, well, this is a place where lepers and sex workers and cast-offs who have been made to feel unwelcome elsewhere in society have found a home. Yeah. you're not allowed to really exist in that space for long because they are put to work.

They are endangered. They are leveraged in various ways. And of course, every character, including Lady Aboshi, has a journey in the film, right? To, like, confront why am I doing this thing? And what is the cost and how am I weighing that against the gain? And, you know, you have all of these different groups, human end natural that allow us to think about that ideas. And like there's,

there's just, again, with that complexity, it's, I think makes the story so rich. You know, I love a wolf.

You love a wolf. Sometimes when we're with San and Morrow, like, it's scary. It's unsettling. You know, when we're with the war, I mean, Akoto is,

those are some of the most horrific moments of the film. The humans, you are drawn to and form connections with some of them in smaller, or more intimate moments

inside of Iron Town or elsewhere. And then they're unleashed in mass to wreak havoc on the sanctity of the world around them to literally cut the head off this bold and beautiful

and vibrant and like inherently unknowable thing and put that head in a pot in a box that they want to carry it around and go cash in on. And so it's just like such a a deeply harrowing and unsettling snapshot of what people do to the world around them, but also an empowering and emboldening reminder of how you can make your way back to like a more anchored sense of your connection to the world around you. Like very few figures in the story are presented as

utterly, completely, totally lost souls. People have a chance to try to live a better life. I love the, I love everything you just said. I love how one of my favorite moments of that moral complexity comes when Son is, you know, attacking Iron Town. And Aboshi's like, listen, I got some people here who've got to beef with you. You got to be with us. We got to beef with you. and one of the women's like, what about my husband that you killed? And it's very much like to the monsters or the monsters. Like who's the monster in this scenario, right? Also, to go back to your analysis of Ashitaka, like this idea, there's this great quote

from one of the Miyazaki documentaries I was watching where he says, we are drawing will, not fate, when talking about his characters. And so it's just like this animating spirit. No matter what, you know, what happens to these characters. We're going to talk about this a lot, I think, when we get to, like, howl or something like that. They don't sit there and wallow in self-pity or, you know, Ashitaka, like, is cursed from the start and is never, like, you know. That's a rap. Morose about it.

He's just sort of like, okay, what, you know, with the advice of that. the wise woman of his village. Like, what can I do with the time remaining? What kind of death can I have? And so his fate is written, and it becomes unwritten, by the way, but like his fate is written. He's supposed to die. But he's not like, here I go trudging towards my fate.

He's like, I am animated by will and I will move forward and I will do what I can with the time left to me. And those characters who are always running. running, always doing something, are just so exciting to watch for us, the viewers. So yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Princess Bonnet, okay.

Number three? I think it's definitely Totoro time. My neighbor, Totero, 1988. Unbelievable. This is a great movie. This is an incredibly sweet and charming film that also has a lot of heartache inside of it. Do you know the thing that made me feel the passage of time the most is listening to, absolute infant L. Fanning.

Shocking. Frankly shocking. Voice of the younger sister. Because like Dakota Fanning like kind of always exists in this like you were a child actress based for me. But like L, I think the first time I ever saw L in something, it was either the Sophia Copeland movie or like super eight when she was already like, I think a teen, a young teen. And so to hear her as just like a tiny little baby in this movie and to think of her in

like the grade where we watch her just like, having lots of sex and doing stuff. And it's just sort of like, oh, my God. But yeah, this is about a story of two little sisters. Their mom is sick in the hospital. And this is like a very early example of Miyazaki examining his own relationship with his mom. And they moved to the countryside.

And their dad has moved in there. And I think this theme of like absent, dead, sick, or imperiled parents. And then we've talked about this before, this idea. Like in fairy tales, the parents are often dead or absent somehow because there's no other way the kid can then like go on that adventure or be that imperiled or whatever it is that the kid the kid protagonist does in a fairy tale or a fantasy story like that. And so that's just like a common fantasy or fairy tale storytelling trope. But the fact that it comes with this personal experience that Miyazaki has had with his own mother. as an extra layer of a poignancy, I would say. Here.

I love this movie. Yeah. I love it. Should we hear the clip? Yeah, let's hear the clip. I will say the other trope I almost smuggled in here was like animal friends. Because this is like kind of which is. And again, talk about one that you could put across a number of movies.

I mean, these magical creatures and magical friendships. I have no notes. The best. But also Professor Tolkien might like this clip too. Carlos will we play this, please. Magnificent tree. It's been around since long ago. Back in the time when trees and people used to be friends.

When I saw this tree, I knew this would be a good place for our family to live. I think it'll make your mother feel right at home. So let's give this tree a nice greeting and go eat our lunch. Then I want to write a letter to mom and tell her all about this. I will too. Attention. Thank you for watching over May and making us feel so welcome here. Please continue to look after us.

Please continue to look after us. Last one, homes are right, Meg. There's a couple of so cute, tiny, tiny Dakota and Elf Anning, but I want to highlight a couple other things before I want to hear you. Like, gosh, about this movie you love so much. Something that Miyazaki talks about a lot that he does is a lot of his films are. are based on books. You know, you mentioned for The Boy in the Heron or obviously How's Moving Castle, et cetera.

But what you will often see when you see a description of a Miyazaki movie is loosely based. And that is because he doesn't write a script for his movies. He starts with the images. And he just lets the image propel the story. And so when he takes something like Howl's Moving Castle or etc. So he will just sort of take the... concept and then just like draw those characters and sort of see where the story moves in from there. So Totoro starts with one of the most iconic images in all of Miyazaki, which is the girls

and Totero at the bus stop in the rain with the umbrellas. He just drew that and then it's just sort of like, okay, what's the scenario where these girls could find themselves at the bus stop with this giant adorable creature? Um, so. Or, you know, what if a cat was also a bus? Like, you know, how... I love cat bus. How is that going to get involved? And so I love that idea of, like, the image drives the story.

And where do we go from there? And then I also love... I think two of the most indelible images... I don't profess myself to be, like, an expert in Miyazaki and Miyazaki fandom. But, like, so for my, like, enthusiast, I think is what we're calling ourselves, Mallory, enthusiast's point of view. I think two of the most iconic images from Miyazaki are the girls in Totoro at the bus stop and the train scene in spirited way.

And what those two have in common are the extraordinary in the everyday mundane, waiting for a bus in the rain, taking a train somewhere. what if some wild exotic, entirely imaginative spirit or creature or thing were there beside you? And that's what Miyazaki

movies have to offer kids. And we've talked about this a lot. We've talked about Doctor Who which is just sort of like, you know, what if the extraordinary are right around the corner from the ordinary? Anything you're doing, what if there was something extraordinary right around the corner from it?

What if there's a hidden platform next to your train platform at Kingscross, you know. Yeah. So a wonderful movie, Mallory. It's great. It's great. I also love the moment waiting for dad's bus to come home and hearing what you're saying about starting with that image and like thinking about the truth behind the image or at the heart of the image. And like one of the things I love about this movie is that even though it is so joyful and tender and sweet, like all of these films, there are these like competing truths or dualities inside of every moment

because that's like, that's what it means to be a person trying to make your way through the day. And so you have these sisters, you have May, and you have Satsuki who are standing there, walked back out into the rain. and when dad wasn't on the first bus, they waited. And they're brave, but they're all so afraid, right? That's the old song of ice and fireism, right?

Like, how can a man be brave if he's afraid? That's the only time a man can be brave. And when Todoro appears, and one of the things that's just so wonderful about the movie is, like, of course, May has this experience first, and then has this experience in time, and the embrace of what is possible, kind of. constantly of what is waiting for that discovery right around the bend that you noted. And so when Todoro shows up, I love the raindrops, the moment with the raindrops, like falling off of the leaves onto the umbrella.

And for the girls, Totoro represents this new safety. Like, what do they literally do? They clutch onto the fur of his belly and nuzzle up for a nap, right? It's like our pals on sleeping and safety on Appa's back. right? Like when you have lost everything, including your mooring, like you just latch on to this thing that gives you a sense of peace. But Totoro is just as excited as they are to discover something new, including what it sounds like when a raindrop hits the umbrella he's holding in his hand. And like, that's just perfect, right? That you never stop, no matter who you are or where you are

in your life. If you're the person who's seeking something or you're the one who was sought, like you never stop finding joy and new discovery. That's just beautiful. And, and, you're And I love how when they arrive at the new house, like, again, there's this, there's this sadness and despair. Our mom is in the hospital, but there's always this hope, right? We can't wait for her to come home. And that's this constant push-pull, like, and finally the damn breaks. Well, what if she doesn't come home?

What if she dies? Like, what will we do then? And the house, is it haunted? The Sucke Gremlin. our hands, our feet, the acorns, where do they come from? Like, that could be so scary. And every time I open a new door, they scream because part of it should be scary. But they're so excited to take that next step and see what they might find.

And I just love the message there. And the thing that I think, like, really elevates it to, like, this, this, just this story that you can turn to for comfort when you need it is the way that they're parents and really everybody, granny, the neighbors never make them feel silly for believing that something magical could happen ever. Like the clip you picked is perfect because their dad isn't like, May. No. What are you talking about? Like, don't run away. Keep your shoes on. Stop getting dirty. Don't crawl into mysterious pathways and mysterious hedges. He takes him to the tree. What a great hideout.

Exactly. And embraces that spark that they have found to hold on to. Some of the most beautiful moments in the movie are when their mother is reading the letters and it's just like overjoyed that her children have found this not only in the world around them, but definitionally then inside of themselves. And that's just a beautiful gift to be able to give the people in your life. I love that. I love a Sitsbrite.

Sitsbrite is a nickname that we have. They are so cute. So spread is a nickname that we have for my cat. So just like Miyazaki, just constantly proving himself to be a cat person. Delightful. There's another concept that Miyazaki is tangled up and that I want to talk about here. Because often with these films, you get interesting pace. You get these slow moments that part of it has to do with that concept.

We talk about a lot when we talk about Lord of the... the rings, which is like, what makes the shire the shire, what makes a place worth protecting or defending, you know, so understanding the, the warmth of community often in these various stories or the splendor of the nature, whatever it is. But the pacing of that, the pausing for those moments of reflection, is a Japanese cultural term ma, which refers to the emptiness or the intentional space and pause between actions or I saw someone describe it as the pause between the collapse. And or Miyazaki explained it that way as the pause between the collapse.

The moments of pause in his films allow attention to build and emotions to unfold. By incorporating Ma, he creates a wider dimension for the audience to experience the underlying emotions of the characters. So just like someone pausing to make a beautiful meal or whatever it is, you know, is just a moment. of a pause between the claps. I absolutely love that. Incredible. That's beautiful. Gorgeous.

Okay. Time for the top two? I think it's, I mean, I don't deny that it's close, but I also kind of think that it's clear. Okay. Hit me.

What do you got? What's your one-two order? I think it's how to spirited way one. Do you think it's flip-flops? I would not. argue with anyone who put Howells at one. I think Howells Moving Castle has a case, certainly, and there is a, I think we, I think we happen to know a lot of people who really love the movie. And like, I think Howells is kind of the people's

choice or maybe like the, maybe the more American choice possibly. And that Spirit Away, which, you know, won the Academy Award for Best Animated Future, really helped put the studio on the map and all sort of stuff like that is, like, maybe the more important film. And Howles Moving Castle is maybe the more like populist popular film. So really, I guess it depends on what kind of list you want to make, which you put at number one. But these are the undeniable. One and two. Yeah, I think so as well. Okay. So we've got Howl's Moving Castle at number two. Let's do it. Lusely, loosely based on the classic novel by Diana and Joe. But a great book. Really great book I really recommend. Howell is a creation is just simply iconic.

So good. This is one of the best things Christian Bail has like ever done in his life is the English dub of Howl's Moving Castle is my. The specific trope I kind of want to talk about here is this respect for the elderly. And because of what happens with Sophie is she's turned to this elderly woman. And so you're watching this adventure and romance story where half the time, or I would say more than half the time, our main character is an old woman. And like I was thinking about it a lot again when we were watching The Boy in the Haren. And, you know, you have all these, these grannies constantly crop up. They crop up in Ponyo.

They crop up in Totoro. They crop up all over the place. But when you have a character like Kierko in The Boy in the Haren, who is a-you-hmm, who is, you have a character like, you know, is one of the grannies but gets swept up in this adventure. And so then you meet her as this sort of like vital young woman. And then it's just sort of like... Seafar is badass. Yeah, it's Miyazaki saying,

all the grannies you know are once adventurous women, too. And all adventurous women will become grannies one day. And still are. And still are, right? And that you don't necessarily, like, leave one behind. And maybe actually when you age into that state, that's when you can discover that in yourself. He says, and I just love that.

Howell, sure, how, it's unclear, honestly, no matter how many times I watch this movie, how often Hal sees her as young and how often he sees her as old and whatever and like, sort of the moments of transformation. He does see her young when she's sleeping, so whatever. But he falls in love with her and she's often in this older guys. And Miyazaki has this great quote where he says, My films show the world's beauty, but beauty that would otherwise go unnoticed. That's what I want to see.

And so, Carlos, will you play us this clip? Howell, you disguised yourself as an old dog? You couldn't think of something a bit more useful. Do you know how hard it is to do things when you're old? Look who's here, the tacky little girl from the hat shop. Thank you for handing my scorching love note to Howl. How's he doing, by the way? He's acting like a big baby, and he's working me to the...

bone, this is cleaning lady. How delightful. If you're so great, why don't you break the spell you put on me? I'm sorry, dear. My talent lies in casting spells, not breaking them. Bye, Granny. Now just wait a minute. You get back here right now.

If I didn't have you to worry about, I would have clobbered her. I think watching Sophie with her walking stick saying, I would have clobbered her is one of my favorite, like, moments. Sophie is just the best. An icon, truly. Wonderful. Yeah, so I just love, and I love how much, like, all the characters, Kalsifer, like, everyone is just sort of, like, falls.

Kalsapur is another favorite. Well, yeah, absolutely. But, like, falls in love with Sophie in all of her various shapeshifting guises. And the fact that, like, Sophie, as washerwoman. You know, there's this whole part of the story where it's like, Sophie feels like she needs to like be working and doing things and proving herself useful to have worth.

And that's something that's sort of like Hal is and the whole adventure is kind of trying to, you have inherent worth. You don't need to clean in order to have worth, though. Everyone enjoys a clean moving castle. But, but that, you know, Sophie, when she's older, is lovable, absolutely, like, delightful and enjoyable. And I just like, that was not the intention of the curse at all. But like, this is, this is the story we get. And I just, I mean, I just love this world. I love Howell's absolute tantrum when his hair gets dyed. And he's like,

if I can't be beautiful, I don't want to live. Like, all this stuff. It's just like, it's an incredible world. It's an incredible time to be in it. And the added twist of like the witch of the waist voice here, you heard by the legend Lauren Bacall, when she is revealed to be like, you know, elderly and wrinkled and all the sort of stuff like that, like Sophie takes her in. And like then you've got like two older women like, you know, running through the story at the

same time. And it's just like, I don't know. This is a very special movie. What do you want to say about House Movie Castle? I love it as well. It's absolutely fantastic. Gorgeous. Sophie, you know, when we meet her,

she doesn't think, you know, because there's this like, the hell is a legend, the mythology around Hal, and the young beauties who he seeks and takes their hearts. Well, I'd be safe because I'm not beautiful. Like, I wouldn't be, he wouldn't want me.

or see me in that way. And what a like empowering and energizing idea for anybody that somebody could see the beauty in you when it was completely, when you thought it had been completely stripped away? And again, that's where we find her before the curse, before she's stooped and wrinkled, and talking about how cold she feels and how tired she is. She has energy.

She has purpose. and like the heart of her, especially in a movie where Howl's heart is literally something that other people can hold in their hands, right? The idea that it doesn't matter what you look like or what you do or what you do matters, how you spend your time, right? Like what role you have in society.

It's how you choose to behave toward other people. And I think that of all the movies on our list today, I would say that this one has maybe the strongest case for a second, like, top. This could have been the choice for trope or theme because it is such a staunchly anti-war film. And obviously the timing on the heels of the Iraq War and Miyazaki has talked about this a lot. But like the way that the film assesses these things in tandem, right? On the one hand, you have this examination of the destruction and the cost and the really corrosive. weight of conflict, and then you have this counterweight of the common cause that you can build

with other people if you don't care about where they came from or what they look like. Like, when we learn that turnip head is the missing prince, it's because he's unmasked, freed by Sophie's kiss, this person that he loves, and then he vows to go back to his home and campaign to end the conflict, right? Because he has had this experience as turnip head, bouncing on a stick, that he would never have been able to have if he had been living his prior life.

Just as Sophie, it's in the guise of the curse in this new skin that allows her to actually forge this connection with other people with Kalsifer. Yes, I think Kalsifer is a person, even though he is a falling star that becomes a. Roaring Foy. beautiful roaring flame around a beating heart that has been ripped out of the chest of young hell.

I just love all that. And, you know, this is also a portal story, right? We've got the castle with our widget that we turn and a new color pops up and we open a door to a new place and this idea of escape and discovery and connection. But inside of the story, it's not ever for more than a moment that we're seeking to escape before we go back to protect. Like the escape is only to unlock some sort of preservation or new ability to go back and like heal our homes, you know? And I love that part of it as well. And it's obviously very purposeful that Howell, who mostly struts around as this like stunningly beautiful desired gift. So ridiculous.

I love him. This is incredible. That Sophie has her version of that experience. experienced with him too, right? It's not just that Hal says, and then pulls the Mark Darcy, right? I love you. Just as you are. Just as you are. She sees Howl in this bird-like, beast-like state, right? Transform covered in feathers, talons. And that form, these states that he's in,

it's because he's committed to trying to thwart and challenge the conflict around him, that he won't succumb to the call to help wage a war. He's going to try to stop it instead. And so that's what leads to like this manifestation of something that somebody else might find unappealing or undesirable. And like that's ultimately where they make their way to each other inside of that. So there's like this embrace of not only like different version of beauty, but like grace and confidence, right, this comfort with who you really are.

You have to find that in yourself before other people can find it in you, but also like they're not only are they not mutually exclusive, they're, they're entwined. And that's just true, right? If you find somebody who helps you see that in yourself, maybe you'll be more likely to be able to accept that about who you are. And we build toward this beautiful moment where Sophie's like, I'm going to keep the hair. I'm going to rock it. I'm going to rock this gray hair, and she fucking pulls it off. And I love that. And he's like, it looks like starlight. You know what I mean? So good. So good. Wonderful. We have a little, we also, I mean, this is not, we don't need to actually talk about this. We can move on. But,

We always love to mention a little paradox inside of a story. So great to see Sophie call out to Young Howl and Calford and say, you know, find me in the future. It's delightful. All right. Spirited Away, Joe. Number one on the list. Take us through it. What a devastating time to be Steve Allman, who just got a spirited away tattoo and is not here to talk about this with us.

Listen, he made his choices. Yeah, this is, I feel, I really regret that we didn't talk about this when we did our Portal World's episode. We just sort of, you know, we missed it. At the top of the Portal World's episode that it was just a taste and a boost-cution that we would talk about Portal Worlds more in the future, and we will. And here we are. Largely considered to be Miyazaki's masterpiece, oftentimes makes the list of like not just best animated films ever, but I don't know why I said animated that way. Like I'm Italian or whatever, but best animated films ever, but best films ever, right? just like one of the most revered films of all time.

And I would say of all the, like, magical worlds that he creates, all the various spirits that we've talked about, all of, you know, even including the boy in the hair and all the like portal worlds, this, I think, is his most imaginative, most indelible world. So we're just going to use that umbrella portal worlds. Portal World's Baby That's the trope we're here to talk about Carlos will you play this clip I'm sorry she turned your parents into pigs

But there's nothing I can do It's just the way things are You'll have to help your parents and Aku on your own Use what you remember about them What? Can't you please give me more of a hint than that Seems like I met Hakku before But it was a long time ago That's a good start

Once you've met someone You never really forget them. It just takes a while for your memories to return. So Homes Among Us have not been reluctantly dragged by our parents down a mysterious dark hallway through a train station question mark and a ruined amusement park question mark and watch them gorge themselves on mysterious piles of plates of food and turned into literal pigs. Oh, well. It looked delicious, and I think I also would have pulled up a stool.

and tucked in, if I'm being honest. The Allison Wonderland vibes are very strong here, especially in that scene. That's very, like, the Duchess with her pig baby in Alice in Wonderland sequence. Turning people into pigs is also, of course, very, like, Circe Odyssey. But, yeah, this is, and this is such an interesting combination of, again, the, like, fantastical and the mundane. Because what I love is that, like, we're so. surrounded by spirits everywhere and it's so bizarre and it's so interesting and we're also doing

washing like we're in a wash house let's clean the tub yeah like it's just it's all part of this bizarre but you know to her credit uh chitiho uh like that she just accepts she's just running She's off running. And she's like, what do I got to do? You know what I mean? Like, she barely has any time, like, Haku's a dragon and also a henchman and also the spirit of the river and, like, also very hot, like, all those are stuff. Extremely fastballed down the middle for me.

You never? You're like, what if he thought? And also a dragon? And also a dragon. But my beautiful river spirit, I love him. And again, their love, you know, when, when it's. It's like what could have broken the spell, what could have transformed him. That's love is a line for the movie.

That's love, isn't it? And it's not, again, not treated as like, you know, a silly little teenage, whatever. I mean, you know, he's probably an immortal dragon, so, you know, he's not a teenager. But all of this is wrapped up in this great story. But he's never like, you're in this other world and this is what you need to do and blah, blah, is just sort of like, go get a job and do some work. work and we'll figure it out and that'll keep you safe. It's a, it's a wonderful story. It's genuinely scary. It's, you know, dreamy. And I just love this movie. Yeah. It's sensational.

I mean, maybe people will quibble with something on the top five here. I think it's pretty tough to argue a spirited away at number one. I mean, it's an all time or so many of these are, but this is, this is truly, truly one of the greatest films of all time. And it is the kind of thing. And then again, I find this to be the case with many Miyazaki movies, but maybe more here than anywhere else, where you just watch it and you are actually genuinely awed by what you're seeing and you can't quite understand how a person could be capable of thinking this way.

Right. And that's the best kind of feeling. Yeah, when you're reading something or you're watching something. And you have a moment where you really get to wonder what it would be like to be able to bring something like this into the world and to share that aspect of your mind and your heart and your soul and your dreams and the way you see the fabric of existence with other people. And to take something that so much of what is here is unknowable and amorphous and the pursuit is about making it a little bit more. tangible, giving it shape, like seeking to define it. Yeah. And this kind of, this simultaneous embrace of that pursuit with the recognition that it is

on some level impossible and that is actually the magic of it. It's the hair tie at the end. Like nothing will ever be 100% entirely concrete and predictable. And that's, that's the beauty of it really. I love the friends you made along the way, you know what I mean? It's truly. I love, love, this is present in the clip that we just heard, the role of memory in the story.

And if we take something like, and memory manifests in a lot of different ways, right, needs to be able to identify and recognize which of the pigs are your parents. Make sure you can spot them, right? That's going to be this crucial test. What is your name? Exactly. So obviously, like, the quest to help Haku remember his past and this connection, this river spirit revelation, that's memory. But at the most basic level, it's the name, right? This idea that Eibaba will seek to control by taking your name from you, right? The very manifestation, the utterance of who you are, the way you introduce yourself to other people, the shorthand,

inside of your own mind. This is who I am. This is my name. Sheiro. And for her to say, no, your name is Sen, and you're a different person and you do what I say and you live your life my way. And we have this contract now. And the idea of like holding on that if you just hold on to the memory of your own name, to the rhythm of it, to the sound of it, every other aspect of your life will be within reach for you is just such an amazing idea. I just love that so much. And like there's risk, right? a tangible tax in this calculus. Like, if you forget your name, you won't be able to leave the spirit world. You won't be able to go back to your human life.

And again, to the portal episodes, tropes discussion in this larger kind of examination, there might be a part of us as viewers that's inclined to say, okay, like, wouldn't it be cooler and better to get to live here and be surrounded by the seemingly impossible every day and realize that it is possible because here it is in front of you, you're pulling the bike handle out with your own hands, right? Like, you're picking up the thing that the little so, such sprites were carrying. But you make your way back and you dust the leaves and branches off your parent's car and then you carry those lessons with you. And like, that's where the enrichment and the journey is. It's not unnecessarily leaving behind.

your life forever or saying, well, my parents made the wrong choice and I made the right one, it's working back to your experience and your existence with a heightened understanding, some new awakening. And for your own name, the thing you brought in with you to be the tether that you can follow back, it's a great way to remind us that we can grow and learn and change without letting go of who we are. It's not about letting go of who we are. It's actually about holding on to that so that it can expand along with us. But also this idea, because we get when, when, uh, Chihiro leaves Haku behind and he gives her the old,

Orviusi and Rudisi, don't look back ending, the old Will and Lyra, you know, we're on other sides of this thing. Um, that's, and again, we get this again in the boy in the heron and stuff like that, of that just sort of like, okay, you had the thing. You had this adventure. And you will always have had that adventure. But also go forward into your life and live your life and don't get stuck in daydreams and fantastical worlds.

But don't forget them either. Right? Like, isn't it fun to think about the idea that holding onto your name in Spirit of the Way? We really need to watch Labyrinth, you and I. I can't wait. Pencil it in for your next trip to L.A. That's like, it's the, it's the inverse. It's the corollary, but also then the connection to Mahito walking back with the brick in his pocket.

Like there is something you hold on so that you hold on to so that you can remember. You mentioned inception earlier. You're right. There's a real like totem in my pocket thing here. Yeah. I love it. Joe, we did it. We did it.

Great movies. Controversal statement, Miyazaki, good. One of the greats. One of the greats. I'm going to just guess because we only heard from Carlos once today and it was about Todoro. So I don't know if that means that Todoro would be number one on Carlos's list. But that's my takeaway from the Zoom chat.

He told me before we started recording, Totoro's is number one. There we go. But he also was advocating for Nosica, which is the one we hadn't mentioned. So Carlos' choice is like... Another great one. Something we should mention is beautiful. Okay. That's a wrap.

Thank you to our guides. Not only the Grey Heron, but Carlos Chiraboga for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jalmi and Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, head into the ring of verse today

for the Midnight Boys episode on Blue Eye Samurai and Godzilla minus one. Joe and I will be back with you on a Monday for our third. Doctor Who's 60th anniversary special pod. And then next Friday for our top 10 moments of the year. Until next time, remember, all gray herons are liars.