House of R - 'Peacemaker' Season 2 Midseason Awards. Plus: James Gunn!

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

They made a vow to pod, no matter how many realities they have to visit. Mallory Rubin is joined by Ben Lindbergh to hand out their midseason awards for 'Peacemaker' Season 2. Come for the Eagly talk, stay for the alternate-dimension takes. Later, James Gunn pops by for a chat with Mal on 'Peacemaker' Season 2, Episode 5; possible Season 3 theme song choices; the larger DCU; and more! (00:00) Intro (05:14) Opening snapshot (13:13) Most Important Eagly Moment (22:09) Best Fight Sequence (24:22) Favorite New Character (30:31) Most Compelling Relationship (37:07) Most Amusing Sequence (41:36) Most Touching Moment (46:26) Most Creative Use of an Alternate Reality (51:54) Most Innovative Use of a Gunnverse Regular (01:04:22) James Gunn on Episode 5 (01:12:14) James Gunn on the 11th Street Kids (01:19:02) James Gunn on the emotion of the story (01:23:05) James Gunn on animals (01:30:18) James Gunn on S3 theme song suggestions (01:35:22) James Gunn on the DCU (01:45:04) James Gunn on Lex Luthor (01:48:01) James Gunn on Batman Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Ben Lindbergh and James Gunn Producers: Carlos Chiriboga, John Richter, Cameron Dinwiddie, Kevin Cureghian, and Belle Roman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to by Bor's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borershead just did that. Burson with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the friars turkey breast only from Borris Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today, discover the craftsmanship behind every bite Boershead committed to craft since 1905. Greetings. And welcome to House of Arm. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and joining me today before we close the

quantum unfolding chamber. He's got to hurry in. Cheeto dust on his fingers and all. It's Ben Lindberg. Hi, how are you? Great to be here. I cherish podcasting with all my heart. No matter the cost. Exactly. Even if I have to come into the studio for it.

I'm willing to pay that price. Yeah. Look at you. You're not only here. You're here in person. You went to the New York office. You have this beautiful wood paneling behind you a lovely painted wall, like some succulence maybe, perhaps a candle.

You're wearing a Henley. You look like you're ready to be in an episode of a billion. at Axe Capitals. This is great stuff. Yeah. I went through the door. I left a note for my way. I'm not coming back. Got to go to the office. I'm honored. I'm honored by your presence, as always. We're here today, Ben, to chat briefly about Peacemaker Season 2 at the midseason-ish mark. We are potting after episode five. This is an eight-episode season. So technically, it's like a little bit beyond the mid-season mark. But they sent screeners for the first five episodes before the season started.

This is an essence of midseason finale in terms of where we leave our characters at the conclusion of this episode, back to the suture. And we're going to do a little check-in, a little mid-season check-in. We're going to do some superlatives today, hand out some awards, get your first ever publicly shared or perhaps even privately shared thoughts on the television program, Peacemaker. And then later today, I will be having a mid-season check-in with someone else. James Gunn. You're an opening act for James Gunn today. James Gunn is joining us for another chat. We had like six and a half minutes with James Gunn at the beginning of the season.

We got more time than that today. This interview was recorded last week. So if James Gunn has said anything else in the world in the subsequent week and a half, it will not be accounted for in that interview. However, there's plenty of other good stuff waiting for everybody. So please stick around for that chat. It was really, really fun. Yeah.

Happy to be the Zex. Snyder of this pot. I come first. Wow. Then games. Comes along, cleans up my mess. Are you going to start a, yeah, exactly. I'm going to start a campaign, much like hashtag make solo to happen for hashtag release the limberg cut. Yeah, that one's going so well. Ben, there's a limburg cut of another sort. Button mash. What on the programming reminders front, do the people need to know, do the bad babies

needs to know what is coming up next week and beyond on button mash? It's a busy time. We're right in the thick of things. This was supposed to be, theft auto season, and now it is not. But many other big games have moved in to fill the void. There's been sort of a feeding frenzy on the schedule. So we covered Hollow Night Silk Song last week. The surprise drop will be returning to that on Friday, not long after this pod drops. When will also be covering Borderlands 4?

And then after that, we've got a new Silent Hill game coming. We've got Ghost of Yote coming in a couple weeks. There's so much. Hades 2, another surprise drop. So the games keep coming. Fast and furious. Thrilling. It is.

Remember when you convince yourself and tried to convince the voting public that GTA 6 would be coming out this year? The hype has only built since then. We're getting a full year of hype. Can't wait for you to pick it again next year. I believe next year, second time's the charm. There you go. Over on House of R, Joanna and I will be covering, of course, the finale. already finale time for Alien Earth.

So that'll be drop in next Tuesday evening. Excited to see how that season of TV concludes. And Joe and I are hoping to have a special guest for that as well. Stay tuned. James Gunn. Is he watching Alien Earth? It's entirely possible. Ben, spoiler warning.

I think it's already implied, but just to state it explicitly, anything that has happened so far in Peacemaker Season 2 through episode 5 could come up today. We have not seen beyond that. Nobody has. And so there were no future spoilers coming. If it happened in Peace Baker season one, it could in theory come up today. And if it's happened in the DCU, DC Comics, the DCEU, anything related to any dimension, alternate, or otherwise in the DC Comics sphere, could have theory come up today.

So prepare accordingly. Anything else on the reminders front that you would like to share? Like, subscribe, follow, et cetera. I have seen Superman, unlike certain previous guests who discuss Peacemaker on this podcast. So I've prepared for that if Superman comes up at some point. Did you go to the movie theater? No, I watched it at home. You're the best.

You're the best. Okay. We've got a lot to cover today. Let's get to the opening snapshot. Okay, Ben, opening snapshot time. We need to acclimate each other, the bad babies, eagley, if he's listening. give us a quick taste. What has your experience been like?

Catching up on Peacemaker. How have you found the show in general and how have you found season two through episode five? I've caught up quickly because I was pretty slow on the uptake. As you know, I have rectified that oversight. I've binged just to catch up for this pod and potential future pods. And it actually worked out well, I think, because if I had watched season one when it aired,

I probably would have forgotten everything that happened. And I would have to be watched. So life pack. Just wait. and watch. But I guess I was a little apprehensive maybe about diving in. Maybe this is why I was a late adopter just because we've seen so many superhero shows in this vein in the boys, Gen V, Invincible Umbrella Academy, kind of irreverent counterculture of superhero sort of show to the point that it's not even really a counterculture anymore. It's maybe the dominant culture when it

comes to these shows. So between that and then between the multiverse aspects, again, I was a little reluctant, like, what will this offer that we haven't seen before? But you said, you know what? I think you're going to like this show. Yeah. I felt pretty confident. I like the show. Yeah. So it turns out that there's more room in my heart for shows like this. And it's just, it's done particularly well. Of course, we love a found family show on House of Bar. This is a good one. Love the gang. Love the 11th Street kids. Consider myself an honorary member, even though I just joined. And season two's been good, I think.

You know, it's that sort of adjustment acclamation period where the gang got together, right? And sort of settled their differences and bonded and had so many emotional moments. And then we do a sort of reset this season where everyone's scattered to the winds and when are we going to see these people working together again. but we've seen ways for them to connect. Some unlikely pairings, in fact, which I've quite enjoyed. So it's nice to see that they're keeping up with each other, even if they haven't hung out altogether all that often to this point. I'm thrilled, though not surprised that you've enjoyed your time with the 11th Street kids.

I thought that in general just kind of the vibe, the pace, the sense of humor and sensibility of the show would be to your liking. But also just more broadly, I think obviously, you know, you appreciate fictional universes that have a fully realized sense of self. And I think that is undeniable with Peacemaker. I've really been enjoying season two as well. You know, I had the pleasure of covering the season two premiere with Mike Golick Jr. That was a super fun pod.

Great to get to chat with Golick and talk about the premiere. I love the premiere. And I'm excited to be able to check in. You know, we were initially thinking, well, we would check in at the literal midseason mark after episode four. but I'm glad ultimately that we ended up doing it after episode five because this is such a fascinating place to leave our characters closing that door. Now, obviously, episode five also ends with the stated declaration that the gang is going to go find Chris. They're going to bring him back. But I found myself totally swept up at the end of episode five.

The reading of the letter, which spoiler will be coming up in one of my categories today, was just, that like that that blend in peacemaker's a show and in gun properties in general that I really gravitate toward where I am like I've spent 30 to 40 depending on the length of an episode minutes laughing being grossed out by some sort of horrendous inventive act of violence finding myself astonished at the the extent of the crude humor and then like realizing I'm wiping a tear away from my eye because I'm so moved by the depth of devotion and affection that has developed between the character. So I think that that has been really creatively positioned for subsequent exploration with the trip through and the closing of the door into the alternate reality. I agree with what you said about how, you know, in season two, the long gap.

I mean, you, you're you're not wrong, man. It's that was a minute between seasons. And, you know, I like that we have. these moments in the season so far. I talked about this in the interview with Gunn, but like something like the rooftop hang in episode two felt really useful not only for us as viewers, but for the characters themselves. Like, right, what is it like for these people to be back together, both with each other and in our lives? And I think finding the, a number of disrupted, thwarted, halted, personal and professional circumstances is like, you know,

dramatically rich, obviously, but then something as bold as we're going to send this guy into a world that he couldn't possibly resist. And the journey is, I presume, about him learning to appreciate the things he has in the other place. Yes. I'm really intrigued by that. I think it's a strong premise for a second season. And, you know, who knows what we'll get beyond that.

But, yeah, rich texts. So our categories today are going to be. Best dimension ever. We will see if that seems out to be true. I've got some, I've got some, some stuff. skepticism on that front. I think the best dimension ever has got to be the one with the imp, who jes and the Cheerios? That just

seems like a good time. Good time. You mentioned on the previous pod, Dark Matter, an Apple TV Plus special. And also I was thinking of counterpart, which is a show that no one watched except me, I think, because it was on stars at the time. But just a great show, J.K. Simmons

and just thought-provoking two seasons of what would happen if you met an alternate self who had a different life and a different family and the road not taken and all of that. So it is material that's been explored elsewhere in fiction before. No question. Yeah. Not with these characters. And we've come to care about these characters because as crude as the show can be at times in that trademark gun way, it does very much have a heart also in that trademark gunway. Yeah. I find that the, you know, we talk about this a lot, but in multiversal storytelling, confronting another version of yourself,

that I'm always quite interested in what you learn is fixed or fluid about who you are based on the circumstances that's around you. And obviously, Chris will learn some of that in the space that he is filling. But that was just a real shock to me still. The fact that alternate peacemaker was dispensed with so rapidly. And then it's about being able to really slot into that life that he is no longer inhabiting. So that's an interesting creative choice. We've got some categories. sidekick, at least, not a winged one.

How many times would prime Chris have checked out at this point, if not for Eagley's efforts? Listen, it was one of the first things I flagged at the beginning of the season. The absence of Eagley over there quite alarming. Tells me a lot about that, Chris. Tells me pretty much all I need to know about that Chris, as does the fact that he kept a bust of his own head in his bedroom. Yes. I'm caught up. We've learned more about him from Harkart and perhaps how faithful he was in that relationship.

But the lack of Eakley. That's all so bad. Clearly he lacks that bond that is so special to the Chris that we know and love. Great stuff. Well, we will talk about some of the choices that were featured in that reality to make it a compelling place, not only for the characters, but for viewers at home. We're going to talk about some of the stuff that's made us laugh, some of the stuff that's made us weep. But there's only one place to begin the midseason awards with you, with me here on House of R. And it is by talking about Eagley.

So let's get to our midseason superlatives. Let's start with the most important, igley moment. So many moments. I know. How can we narrow it down? Oh, and we should say, because we did the pot on the first episode of the season, we're going to at least attempt to primarily focus on episodes two, three, four, and five as like the eligible text for these categories.

But at some point, you might pick something for episode one. I might pick something for episode one. We might reference things that happen in episode one, but we're going to try to hit two, three, four, and five most frequently in the category. So what do you got on the easy front? A lot of emotional moments, another hug with an actual completed selfie. But I'm going to go with one of the more violent displays that we have seen from Igley thus far. This might have some overlap with our next category.

But probably when he single-handedly, single-beakedly just kicked Argus's ass. who thought that no one was home and discovered to their dismay that there was an Egli home security system. He made very short work of them. I feel nervous as I don't doubt that you do every time that he faces fire when he's on the receiving end. I mean, he's been hunted. He's been targeted throughout this season. But didn't really break a sweat. I don't know if Eagle's sweat seems unlikely.

But it was water off the duck's back. I guess, because some said he was a duck, in fact. So that was just really, we've seen, you know, from time to time, obviously, he has swooped in and come to Chris's rescue. But that was just a solo act. He wasn't even a sidekick. He was just taking center stage at that point. And we've seen a lot of eye violence, not only in this show, but Superman also, just like a literal,

tough look at times in these properties. But that just, you know, casually plucking out the eyeball. and dispensing with it. It just showed us what Eagley's made of. Not that we didn't already know. Unsurprisingly, this is my pick as well. I kind of don't know how it couldn't be. I was thinking back.

I thought you'd go with some more sentimental bonding. So I have, okay, like, I have a tie here, I guess, because. You can get a smile. Yeah, I think, I just think we can't really understate the potential mythology and lore significance. of what happened with Eagley at the end of episode five, like finding out that Eagley is, in fact, the prime eagle, like a creature of legend, which I talked to Gunn about it.

And, you know, it sounds like this is not just like a blood loss and hallucinogenic fueled vision from Red St. Wild. But in fact, an indicator that Eagley is, as we have always suspected and frankly, dare I say, known, mystical, mythical, magical, all of it. So that was a great way not only to, I think, lean into the fact that everybody is obsessed with Eagley, but also weaponize, in a way that I'm with you, like kind of genuinely pains me when I watch, weaponize our terror, like the fake out of, I don't like to see any animals

killed in fictional stories. So I mourn for that other eagle, too, but the fake out of like, was that Eakley? You know, after the way that Eagley looked at what happened with the ingesting of the poisoned vermin, it was just all so stressful. And then the way that all of those other eagles swooped in to aid Eagley and taking down this monstrous force really reminded me of like all of the wolves gathering around Nimeria. You know, really had that vibe like the mythical beast perched and looking inward. So that's... I was reminded of another Game of Thrones.

Were you getting Oral the Wildling vibes from... Certainly any time there's like a face talent scratch. There was warging. There's going to be that association. There's going to be that association. Well, yeah, the drone cam. Yeah. So that I think has to be a contender here for this category.

But at the end of the day, and I will get to you're right. sentimental moment coming as well. But I think that your pick, it's just hard to top what was in essence a like hero strut sequence that was set to music where Eagley single, clawedly took down an entire unit of professional assassins. Like, it was incredible. I mean, I was again, very stressed because I don't want to see him in harm's way. And the show has taught us that it will actually hurt him. You know, we saw. He took that. fire in season one, right? And was like on that table, on that slab. It was horrible. So it's not like I assume going into one of these sequences that Eagley is going to be okay. And obviously, we've watched

enough James Gunn properties over the years to know that he will take an animal away from us. He will make us sob. He will make us more. No question. So I'm always very anxious. But there was something about that where right away are like, Eagley is going to just dust these fools. And he did. you, I think, are using conservative language to describe what he did with mild, mild muted language to describe what he did with that eyeball. He didn't just dispense with it. The twirling in the air of the sinews and fibers and veins and connective tissue so that the blood rainbowed in the sky.

I mean, that was just really memorable stuff. And then the dirty money track popping in. as he, like, wobbled towards the camera, pay me all your dirty money. I'm your favorite monkey. Watch me go. I slacked Arjuna and I'm like, it's possible we just witnessed the most important television episode effort. And then I don't think that was how it was received.

But in the moment of watching that scene, it felt that way. There were some style. That was not his first eyeball extraction. I think we can tell he's a veteran. Certainly not. And then he turns out to be the Lord of all. Eagles or whatever at the end. And, you know, I feel like Eagle's... Still tough to open like a baloney package, though. It's true.

Some things are humanizing. Challenges. Yeah. But it did cross my mind since there doesn't seem to be an equally equivalent in the alternate universe. Well, maybe this is a way to have Chris leave everything behind when he assumes this alternate identity. Fortunately, not the case. But yeah, Eagle's usage rate just in general is up this season, right? He's getting more minutes, it seems to me, which I know maybe that's your input. I'm sure you're happy about it, but you hear this all the time about TV shows versus movies. You start a program.

You don't really know what you have. Sometimes you're like, this character's only going to be around two episodes and then you say they're the co-star of five seasons. Yes, he's the Jesse Pinkman of Peacemaker. Exactly. When you have a star this powerful who has gripped the masses this fully, you got to use them. You got to use them.

And I feel like the effects have improved. Maybe it's that three and a half year gap, but he's, he looks more. natural to me. He's emoting, very compellingly. And like compared to crypto, who's precious, of course, also. But when I watched that movie with my wife, she was like, I wish crypto were a real dog, not just in the sense that we all wish he were real and not just a fictional creation, but also, you know, you could kind of tell he was CG, which is understandable because he flies and he's super strong, et cetera. But like, eagly, he passes muster for me. Maybe that's just because I have less familiarity with eagle behavior than with dog behavior.

I was going to say, I think there's some cover in the fact that, like, most of the people who are watching are just less used to how an eagle or raccoon moves than a dog. But it's where it's, it's, it's a, to the point in general about the effects, like my other smuggle for this category is the moment where when adabio and vigilante are leaving to go get Chris and they say goodbye to Eagleie. And he just kind of wobbles and squawks and chirps really despondently, like in a way that to me was so evocative. and reminiscent of like how Halo behaves when we have to leave. And he's like, don't go. I don't want you to go. I don't want to be alone. I'm sure this reminded you of grumb as well.

That to me is magical. But I'm like, this is just like how a pet behaves at the door when you have to go and they don't want you to. I love it. You did, I think, establish that Eagley is canonically more cat-coded than dog-coded, which maybe that's just your bias as a cat-first person. I love all animals. I think I agree with you, even as a dog guy. But there's elements of both. There's just a lot to love.

Yeah. When you're using your claws that much, I think it's just very catcoded. Okay. Let's get to the next category, which is best fight sequence. It sounds like from something you've already said that you faced the same struggle I did, which was making your pick for the Eagley category and then immediately being like, wait, is that my pick for Best Fight Sequence too? Yeah.

But I did end up landing on an alternate nomination. Did you? That's probably my pick if I'm going to go with my heart. But you could say it's kind of, you know, there's a lot to choose from here too. of course there's we're sort of staying away from the premiere but there is the the hardcore bar fight feel free feel free to nominate that that's up there i just want to mention it you you talked about it so we don't have to dwell on it and i guess also just the full-on action sequence that chris partakes in when he's in the alternate universe and yes that's that was like an action movie just dropped into

an episode of peacemaker basically so that that's my that's my pick but i'll i'll drill down on something specific inside of it so this was in episode three uh when Peacemaker just destroys the Sons of Liberty and the alternate dimension, has been said. But I would like to award in this category the double ear,

double pencil kill. Yeah. The pencil swirly kill. Yeah. Which I assume was inspired by John Wick. I mean, feels like it has to be, but who knows?

As soon as he grabbed the pencils from the cup on the desk, you knew. You knew what he was grabbing them for. But I'm thinking, of all sorts of things, both in the ear with him lowering, Chris hiding in the ceiling, lowering himself from the ceiling, having the hand-eye coordination to get both in the year at once, and then the control to the pencils don't snap.

And then he swirls. The subtitling in this sequence is flesh squelching grunts. We love a squelch. We love the squelch here at House of Arr. So how could I not pick it? Battle of Endor where the Ewox let the logs go. crush the ATSD. That was this move, but with a skull, essentially.

So it's a mashup of the events on Endor and Johnwick. Yeah. What are we going to complain about? It's a good crossover. Okay. Let's get to our next category. This is maybe a more crowded field. I kind of think we're going to have the same pick here anyway, though.

Let's find out. Favorite new character. Favorite new character. I got to go with my man Tim Meadows. That's my pick, too. Yeah. How could it not be? He's an icon.

This is just so entertaining. He's so, his tone is so perfect for this dialogue and like the, the kind of witty repartee that's necessary in these scenes. Did you have a favorite moment so far with our guy Langston Flurry? Do and it might cross over with another category that we're going to get to. We don't have another category devoted to, um, two people performing a blowjob at once. So I'm wondering what you're going to mention now. True.

There was that. But I think earlier in that exchange or a different exchange, I mean, I mean, the bird blindness conversation, just the concept of bird blindness, the concept of having an academic book learning knowledge of hummingbirds. Yeah. But not knowing what that means in practical terms, not being able to distinguish between an eagle and a duck. Just best. I just, he's added so much to this season. That's all I'll say.

Bird blindness was the kind of thing definitely where if you showed somebody a scene. absent the awareness of who made the show, and they, like, didn't necessarily know that John Economos, the other character in that scene, was in peacemaker or something. If they had been deprived of enough knowledge to know for sure that it was Peacemaker, but had seen James Gunn stuff before,

I think they'd be like, this is a James Gun scene. Yeah, yeah. The nicknames, Ginger Cool, it's better than Diebeard. I'm glad Ginger Cool has entered our lives. I just think that he has been, such an effective vessel for peacemakers very specific, not just crude humor. Obviously, he's being used heavily on that front, but kind of just like the deliberately absurd nature of the humor.

He's been great there. And I really like the way that he's had effective scenes and moments with a number of different characters. Obviously, like, mostly it's been with Economos, and I kind of like always love economos scenes as a rule, so that's helpful. But, you know, there's some interesting tension with Bordeaux. there is some tension with Judah Master. And then we get a little moment in at the end of the stretch of episodes we're covering.

That feels really important. Like the, it's good that you did that moment with Economos and by extension hardcore about booking Chris. Like the little glimpse of morality or humanity inside of the Pez dispenser of insults. It's like, I think important to have. so far. So yeah, he's been just really entertaining. And then when we leave him in episode five, he's kind of frozen out a little bit by this budding, whatever it is, between Flagg and Sasha. So maybe he's on the outs there. Who knows where his loyalties lie. Is he someone who could be turned, could be a powerful ally? So we'll see. And yeah, I love that about the show,

just the running bits throughout a season or across multiple seasons. And the nicknames is one of them. But even there, it's funny, but there's also some growth. Because Economos basically shuts that down in this season, right? Whereas DiBeard is a running thing throughout season one. And then we get the just heart-wrenching, tear-jurking origin story of the actual diebearding. One of my favorite moments of season one. Yeah.

And of course, you know, he's like the unlikely action hero of season one who comes in and cleans up whenever he's pressed into service. So that or like, you know, judo master, just all the things that keep coming back that you think were just tossed off almost. most. And then it's just a bit that runs throughout the show. So yeah, he's been huge addition, just as elevated, raised the series game. You mentioned Rick Flagg, Sr. and Sasha Bordeaux, obviously, Flagg has been in other properties. This is not a new character, not a debut, but Sasha Bordeaux is a new figure in the story. What is your read on that vibe? Obviously,

the flirtation is palpable. It's active. It's ratcheting up as we go. But then you're pairing that with something like as they're driving out to the cabin to try to try to reach the rift in time to try to catch peacemaker using it um there's that look that look that passes from sasha to flag is she playing him right is she trying to use her um sexual power to uh what gain access to information bent him to her will what is your what is your do you have a prediction for what we're going to see on that front seemed like there was some manipulative going on maybe? I mean, it was kind of a sudden come on.

And, yeah, I don't know exactly what her motivations are. That's one of the things I like about this season is that everyone does have kind of multiple motivations going on here. Yeah, and a lot of divided loyalties and pulls in multiple factions. And things that we've just discovered this season, just, you know, the relationships between the Ricks Jr. and Harcourt, of course, and how that colors Harcourt's relationship with peacemaker or both peacemakers, right? So it's kind of complicated because we've got multiple couples and love triangles or whatever.

But yeah, that and what you just mentioned with Flurry. Is Flurry a Nick Fury? Nick Fury, Flurry? Is that something? I don't know. I don't know if that's intentional. Like the 30 seconds to Mars denigration seemed to be. That was so savage.

But, no, it does seem like we can't completely read all of these characters even more than halfway through the season now. And so there's a lot about this alternate universe that we are still discovering, but also about these new characters especially. Yeah, and then the characters who we can read and we feel like we have a clearer beat on and understand better,

we still, one of the things that we understand, we still see is that, like, there are competing draws on their heart, on their mind. Like, I really liked how we built towards something, like, Adabaya, just saying to Harcourt, like, you are who I thought you were. actually, but the fact that there are moments of doubt, you know, is important and I think human. This is a good transition into our next category, which is the most compelling relationship for you

through five episodes of season two. Is it one of the ones you just mentioned? Is it Chris in heart court? Is it something else? What do you, what do you pick in here? Can you can you even pick? Yeah. I mean, to me, the heart of the show really is, is Chris in out of bio. And it still is, I think. So that's not a new answer. Obviously, we got some clarity. on them moving past her reluctant betrayal of him last season and they've patched things up and maybe it's brought them closer in a way. But just both of them kind of being in this in-between stage and not being employed and possibly putting ads that people are interpreting the wrong way in magazines that no one reads. You know, they're both unwanted in a way and they're bonding over

that. And Harcourt's been in sort of the same boat. So, you know, this team has broken up and they've all just scattered and they're trying to find their way apart or together. But that is still just sort of the beating part of this show. No offense to Adrian, Vig would hate to hear me say this, obviously, and to put any relationship with Peacemaker over his own. But that to me is just still why I'm watching first and foremost. Yeah. So I have a related but slightly tweaked just because I'm cheating version of that. I will say I did consider, because this is a season two mid-season check-in exercise, I did consider going with Chris and alternate to mention Keith because I think that is just like

a fantastic choice on a storytelling front to present Chris Smith with the brother whose loss in his universe has defined his entire life with a father as well who like is alive and loves him an Amelia who he has in fact been romantically involved with and might be romantically involved with again, all of that. But Keith in particular, just because we've gotten more conversations between them and more interactions between them so far through five episodes. But I'm like, I'm with you. I kind of couldn't talk myself into something that wasn't an 11th Street kids pick here.

It's just that I'm, like that is for me also the heart of the show and the soul of the show. And you said it. I love a found family. this is very guardians coded to like not just found family but the misfits who find a sense of belonging and acceptance with each other I'm going with autobiocris but I'm expanding it I'm going with autobio and everyone every single autobiopio pairing has worked for me this season obviously for all the reasons you said with autobi on Chris I'm with you I have no I have nothing to add in no counter arguments that relationship is just like wonderful

I think the adibio vigilante scenes have been incredible. The autobiobio hardcore scenes have been great. The autobiocanamo scenes have been great. I'm surprised you didn't pick that just because of the Grand Theft Auto mention. You know, even the stuff with Key and the dogs, it's like basically every single scene that autobi is in is good. And the fact that those relationships all feel not only compelling because Danubeuroprox is such a compelling performer and the character are so winning, but because each of them

actually does feel like distinct to how those two characters. would interact. And then you get something like, I don't know, the fact that she is the one that Ata Bio is the one who's like there to hug and cradle vigilante when he breaks down and is experiencing this wave of emotion was just so touching. You know, she's the person everybody else can confide in or look to. She's always the one who's going to tell the other person what they need to hear. And I think that Aadabio's ability to juggle and balance like really unflinching, unyielding feedback. Like, I'm your friend,

and so it's my responsibility to tell you something uncomfortable and unpleasant with always still empathy and tenderness. Like, I thought the scene with Chris where he revealed everything and she was like, have you considered that, like, that none of that is real?

And you just walked into a magical sphere that's showing you what you want? I was like, I don't think that's what's happening in the show, but she's making me think of something interesting there, right? And when she said, like, you know, we just, we carry the things in us that we need to confront. She's wise. She's tender.

She's obviously hysterical. She's a badass. So she's the best. And I just love that we've gotten to see her featured with so many different members of this core group in the collective, but also in those distinct pairings. I think it's been great. Yeah. No, she's, she's the glue guy, the glue girl of the show. She's kind of like the, the O negative universal donor.

She can do scenes with everyone. and there feels like there's a real heartfelt relationship there. And yeah, with Chris, it's maybe particularly poignant just because of everything they've been through. And, you know, they're kind of striking off on their own, or at least they attempted to. At first, you know, she wants to fit in and she wants to be part of this larger establishment. But then she goes rogue and speaks up and is blackballed because of that. And then Chris wants to join the justice gang and they don't want him. And so he's just doing his own thing.

And she's trying to start her own business. And so that's sort of touching slash inspiring. And yeah, what you're saying, I think that's something I've appreciated about this season, even though I want to see the gang get together again. The fact that we've seen all of these, like almost every permutation of the members of this group, splitting off on their own. And not even for some sort of story-related reason is the thing. It's not like, oh, we've got to go do this.

And so we're the only two people who are available or something. We just meet them midstream. Like, we don't even know did they just text each other and say, yeah, it's like the rhythm of their lives. Yeah, right. And, you know, I mean, the most notable example of that, of course, is this boat hookup that we still have not seen but have heard about. And that's a little jarring. Why didn't we see this? Maybe we still will.

But even all of these lower stakes pairing where people are just hanging out, people who you don't really think of as being the closest in that group. And you wouldn't maybe have pictured them hanging out on their own without kind of the social lubricant of the. the other group members. Yeah. And yet they are. And we just kind of meet them there as if this is like a regular occurrence for them to hang out. And that's, that's special.

That just reinforces this bond, even though we haven't gotten to see these characters together as often. Yeah. I'm with you. Let's switch tones from the feels to the laughs. Yeah. Most amusing sequence. Yeah.

This is where I was hinting at the bird blindness. If I had to choose a most amusing sequence, I'd put. probably double up on this. But honorable mention, I guess, speaking of unlikely pairings, vigilante, tenderly tucking economists into bed in the bathtub, which was explored further in the Stinger. Yeah. Loved that, cherished that. Yeah.

There are so many funny exchanges this season, but that stood out, I guess, in addition to the bird blindness, which just kind of takes the cake for me this year. Yeah. My pick here, which is not a pick, but is also not a cop-out. because I mean it as sincerely as I've ever meant anything is everything that vigilante does, which just continues to really work for me. I think that I think that vigilante is a riot. I particularly enjoyed, if I'll drill down further on, of all of his like a quiz me on this creature that I.

Yeah, exactly. Quiz me on this creature that I'm going to tell you I know a ton about and I don't actually know anything about. The Crow facts have been my favorite on that front. I thought his response in episode two to being excluded from the orgy was just vintage vigilante and very good. The like dancing with the mop after using the bone saw to clean up the grizzly body disposal. Also in episode two was exceptional. You've alluded to the conversation on the porch between autobi and vigilante about his read on the conversation that he overheard with one of the gentlemen who has come across her ad.

Very memorable response from vigilante there. That was really something. So that's, yeah, I think it's hard for me not to pick a vigilante moment when talking about the things that have made me laugh the most in the show. I will award, though, as like an honorable mention here. I think Economos is also incredibly amusing. And the thing that made me laugh the most, on the Economist front of this season so far was in episode five when he and Hartgart go into the break room. And she's like trying to convince him to book Chris. And she's like, you know, you were just giving me shit about trying to get my job back. And he said, yeah, but we exist on completely different moral spectrums. I'm famously a gigantic pussy for me just looking somebody directly in the eyes as an act of heroism. incredible stuff.

He's the best. And then shout out. Quite courageous at times. He can. He rises to the moment. He rises to the occasion when he has to. Not just with eye contact, but with machine gunning white supremacist, if that's what the moment requires. So, yeah.

We love a reluctant, surprising hero. I do think we should also shout out the woman in the drugstore who was part of the beaker scene. And the guy was like, is that bad? And she said, it's not good. It's not good. That was really funny. I like that vigilante autobiocene just because he's so often the oblivious one, who is failing to pick up on the social cues.

And in that instance, at least, he's a little more worldly. Yeah, a little bit. He'll surprise you from time to time. Not with his knowledge of owls or manterey. I'm still thinking about the owl's eyes being tubes. Yeah, the tubes. Wouldn't the tubes just be all over the ground if that were the case? excellent point.

I'm still thinking about Mantraise being the pancake of the sea. Vigilante. I'm like, I think of all the things I'm most excited for on what episode six, seven, and eight, like presumably have in store for us. And like we should say, again, they didn't send screeners for those episodes.

We have not seen them. I don't believe anybody has seen them. That makes me think there's a lot of stuff coming in those episodes. two of the three remaining episodes are they're all written by James Gunn. Two of them are also directed by James Gunn. Sure, there's a ton coming. I'm sure there are a lot of big DCU connective tissue reveals. The thing I'm, like, maybe most excited for is just Vigilante finding another version of Vigilante at some point. I can't believe we're lucky enough to get treated to that, I hope. Yeah. Let's cry again. Okay. Most touching moment. Oof. Yeah. I mean, I think when Chris decides to leave, I know that's probably what you're picking too, right? But yeah.

Yeah. How do you top that? Just deciding to shut the door figuratively, literally on his entire life and start fresh and think that Harcourt is, he's under a misapprehension about what she was doing and why she was doing it. So there's sort of a misunderstanding there and just fleeing this world because he thinks he's not wanted there. Obviously his whole arc where he seemed to. validate everything. Like, he's been on a journey, right? He's evolved as a character. And yet he's not really treated any differently by most people. He's still kind of dismissed as a joke. Right. He's, you know, regarded as a killer. Like, he can't put his past behind him. To be fair,

it's a troublesome past. Perhaps there's some penance that must be paid here. But yeah, people have not really realized that this is a new peacemaker that he's turned over a new leaf. And so that's sad that he thinks that he can't change in this world that that door is closed. And so he has to close it and go to this other world that he thinks will be a happier, warmer place. Yeah, I thought this was like very moving and really sad. And the combination of like the letter, the reading of the letter, I just loved stylistically the shift from out of bio reading it to the other 11th Street kids into us hearing Chris read it in voiceover form as we start to glimpse and see little bits and pieces of his new life, the top trio with Eagley by

their side in the sky, in this in this dimension where he is adored. And I think what you, what you said is exactly right. It's like this great combination of, I think it's interesting enough to say that other place has the things that I want or that I think I want. And so I am drawn toward it. Like, how could you not be? But to pair that with and this other place just rejects me time and again, no matter what I do. I actually have tried to be a better person. I have, like, reflected and attempted to learn. It's not enough. I still don't feel like this is the place where I can build a life. I've tried again and again to make up for my mistakes, he said, but I'm not sure redemption is something that's truly possible, at least not here. So I'm going to

make a life in the other world. I'm going to be a brother to my brother, a son to my dad, and I'm going to tell Amelia, yes. And then like that cut to Harcourt's face. She knows how he feels about her, obviously. Like he's been making that abundantly clear. But for her to have to like process, okay, that is a part of the reason that he has chosen to leave his entire existence behind to go try to be with me, a me who wants him. It's all just really good. And I loved like just the simplicity of in the letter him saying, I'll cherish life. Like I just thought that was a great little touch.

And you've got guns and roses. November rain is playing. And then you cut to vigil. Lante breaking down. It was like really good. And then the, you know, Chris has been summoned to battle the kaiju. And then that return, you know, coded in kaiju goo running toward hardcore, running toward the thing that he thinks is going to make him happy. And like, it's not that I want him to be miserable in that other world, but I am very invested in him embracing the fact that the things that actually have value and make him happy are already present in his life.

That doesn't diminish the losses. That doesn't diminish the trauma. but finding value in these other things and finding a way to recognize that those other people like love him too and have them go try to find him and show him that and tell him that I think will be like a really great way to end this season if that's where it's going. So yeah.

Yeah, I considered kind of the polar opposite emotionally, which was the rooftop scene that you alluded to earlier in episode two when they do all get back together and Econimos is there even trying and failing to catch beers thrown to him by vigilante Like that moment, you know, obviously there's the subtext there with Harkord and Chris and there's some tension and there's drama. But most of it is just, it's nice to see these guys back together again. Obviously, that's episode two. We only had to put up with one episode when they were just splintered.

But just to see that they could be back together. And, you know, in retrospect, I guess it's even more poignant to look at that scene after episode five. Yeah, for sure. Chris decides that he actually has to leave because in that scene, there's still hope that this group can make it together. And then that turns out not to be the case for now, but I'm still holding out hope for our friends. Me too.

Yeah. Most creative use of the alternate reality. What is your pick here? Is it the obvious? Is it the brother is alive? Keith is here? Is it something else? I didn't choose the Keith-Christ relationship, as you considered.

because, you know, to this point, and I hope this will change, but we haven't gotten that much depth to it. It's all just kind of, you know, Keith and the father are kind of these cardboard cutouts, basically, of like, these are the happy family members that I never had. We haven't really gotten that much of a sense of their relationship. And maybe now that he's over there full time, we will. And perhaps it won't be quite as rosy as it seems. But it's funny, like, I really appreciated when the only use of the multiverse, in this series was just as a storage closet. Yeah.

Because, so on some level I miss just having, you know, quantum unfolding chamber that's just a place to store stuff or put your helmets. Or have eagly, take eagly for a fly in the morning. Stretch those wings. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And so there's part of me that's sort of sad that it went beyond that because that was

kind of a fun little bit just poking fun at how much multiverse there is in everything these days. But yeah, I mean, this might also be. be connected to the next category and last category we talk about. But it's not just that Keith is here and the dad is here. And by the way, I have to shout out because Joe would if she were here. The wig work on Robert Patrick in the flashback scenes in episode four. We go back 35 years and the only hunting mullet. Yeah, is that he's got the mullet. It's very much an original Dexter approach to de-aging. Just have a funny looking wig and call it a day.

You know, I think the reappearance of Rick Flagg, Jr. That's my pick, too. Yeah. That adds a lot to this story. This is great. I, as Golick and I talked about in the premiere pod, I was hoping that this was going to happen simply based on, it had never occurred to me, actually, just based on how the season was teased in the trailers where it was very clear, like other dimensions were going to be apart as I was not thinking about, oh, are we going to confirm. a still alive version of Rick Flagg Jr. And have to face all of that trauma.

And obviously, because, as you alluded to earlier, like, we didn't know until this season about the history between Harcourt and Rick Flagg, Jr., the depth of the friendship, but also the romantic involvement, I would not have had any way of anticipating that there would be, like, an even deeper tangling and intangling of that web. But when we heard that word, when we heard Jarhead, it was just like, they're teasing who else could this possibly be, right? So that was pretty fun to have a couple episodes of theory corner anticipation, but then not have to wait too long for the payoff.

And I really hope that we get more because I will say, I thought as always, like Joel Kinman is always, always a delight. He's always great. I thought the like actually like even though I'm always the hottest, coolest, suavest, most capable person in the room in this reality. I'm like really nervous around my girlfriend who I think likes another dude better and like, you know, the whole bit with like the cubicles and him trying to eavesdrop and spy and the anxious reaction to being found out because of the trash can banging.

Like all of that was really comedic and fun and I like deploying him differently in that respect. I hope we get more time between Rick Flagg Jr. and that world and peacemaker himself. Because I thought that was a little hurried, his response. Like, I was waiting for him to completely crumble in the literal face of one of the great mistakes in the history of his life. We moved on from it pretty quickly. So, you know, I assume that, like, they're, there will be a lot of things that Chris Smith is uncovering about life in that world that make him less comfortable there or less content or have to face the things that that version of him continue to face and learn that that version of him did things that he now has to be

responsible for, basically. But that is his responsibility, the grief and trauma that he brings on the Rick Flagfront. So, yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know how many episodes he's going to appear in, but I hope he had a little more on that front. Yeah, me too. And that's deep and the relationship in the prime universe, too, just because, you know, we get a deeper insight now into Harcourt. Yes. Really has the same grudge against peacemaker that Flag Senior does. Obviously, she's handling it in a slightly different way and not completely pummeling him, at least physically, verbally sometimes. Even if she's not trying to kill him to get revenge, you can understand why she's been a bit frosty with him, why she might be reluctant to invest in this relationship, given the previous relationship with.

a guy peacemaker killed. So, you know, you might have assumed that's just her, her tough, you know, hard-bitten exterior, right? But obviously there's much more to that that we know. Yeah. If you've developed feelings for the guy you swore to pursue vengeance against, that would be a complicated thing to have to navigate. So I agree. That's been enriching in all respects. Last category. As always, a crowded field. Yeah. Most innovative use of a gunverse regular. I once again assume that we have the same pick here, but perhaps not.

Well, so this was where I was kind of counting flag. I don't know whether by gunverse regular, you mean just, you know, the multiple flags have appeared all over the. Gunverse meaning any, it doesn't even have to be contained to DC. Anything that he has made, the performers who he likes to feature. Spoiler, I'm going with Michael Rooker as Red St. Wilde here. Yeah. Yes. No, I like Merle Dixon, the Eagle Hunter. That was kind of an out-of-left-field choice, even for this show.

Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, I mean, I'd stick with flag, I guess, just because of... Yeah, it's a great one. Joel Kinneman, shout out for all mankind, coming back soonish. But the way that that's enriched the show, the relationships, you know, not just an actor we like, but also, yeah, it's just added a lot of layers to this whole thing. but it's true. He does have his his troop, his cast of characters, his ensemble that he brings back over and over. Sometimes the layers are emotional, like the ones you just beautifully peeled back for us.

And sometimes the layers are layers of flavor. And I would like to share a quote with you from one of the, the stingers have been really fun. The stingers, which are basically like, as you've noted, a brief little expanded versions of scenes we've already gotten. Red St. Wild,

a character who I always love to see Michael Rooker, whether he's wearing a decorative hat or a magical fin or anything else. I was appalled in the run-up to season two to learn that there would be a character whose entire role in the story was to hunt eagley. I was dismayed and frankly full of despair. But of course, this has been like so debauched and deranged that it's been very entertaining. I do have questions about whether a wound, I know head wounds bleed quite freely, but whether you could be pulling enough blood on your fingers to trace the outline of the Prime Eagle that many hours after you had originally injured yourself, I'm not sure, but what I will say is, mystical powers at play.

I guess so. Four days old. Hints of cold cuts, tater chips. I got hints of peppermintz, bam, twizzlers, M&Ms, fruity pebbles, and protein powder. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tika masala, lima beans, pet Thai, A5 Wagyu, beluga caviar. Oh, my God, that eagle eats better than I do. That is, of course, Red St. Wilde breaking down all of the flavors as he nibbles and noches on a four-day-old, dried-out glob of eagle's shit. In the Stinger itself, that is interrupted by a number of responses from an absolutely incredulous shot.

Economos. Goes on a little longer. There's a longer list of ingredients. Unbelievable. Even your devotion to Eagley, I think he surpasses you, even if it's for nefarious reasons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I worry about the bells of that bird just because of how many trace elements are in here.

I think Economos mentioned you got all that from one. He ate all that between. Between ships. Maybe this lingers. I don't know. stays in the system. Maybe it's the mystical powers again. But yeah, RIP seemingly, apparently.

That was very, not to spoil anything, but very the end of weapons sort of seen. I've not seen that film. I'm not sure if I would be able to handle seeing weapons. Seems like people like that. Does that mean that a number of eagles kill a person? And then at one point, another, one of the eagles brings a finger to somebody. And that person says, I'm going to pretend you found that? Not that different from that.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's just a tease. All right, Ben, those are our midseason awards. Is there anything else that you'd like to say about Peacemaker through five episodes of season two? Well, I don't know if you pry it all with gun, but do we want to do any speculation theory corner about this alternate universe? I guess we can return to it. Throw out any theories that you have if you've got them, man.

What's on your mind? Very conspicuous absence of non-white people in this world, which many have pointed out. perhaps suggestive of the nature of this reality. Maybe that is why Agi is so happy in this world. Everything's going great for him. People have speculated that the absence of any kind of American iconography, the fact that there's no eagley, anything like that, are we even in a United States?

Is this some sort of alternate history scenario? How did we end up with this very homogeneous mix of people? So is that what Chris was? we'll find out potentially here that it's not so much that you can't be happy with this long lost loving dad he never had and the long lost brother and hopefully Harcourt, but also what is happening in this society exactly? What has not been stated plainly that has perhaps been hinted at? So I don't know if that's why this has all been shrouded in mystery or if it has more to do with cameos, which Gunn has also teased. Could be both. Could be both.

Yeah, for sure. My guess would be that cameos, big DCU tie-ins, whatever sets up the events of Man of Tomorrow as Gun has been teasing, including in our chat today, that that stuff is probably coming in episode eight and that there are other notable reveals in episode six and seven. But who knows? I mean, maybe we'll get some DC ties sooner. Yeah, I think that whatever the specifics are, broadly what you are getting at feels. very likely to me that there has to be a confronting of the micro and the macro, the intimate and the societal. Like, what is different?

What do you crave? What do you feel? What do you confront that you need to reject inside of a family unit or a relationship, but also then society at large? That will be a fascinating thing to watch this Christmas. Yeah, because it seems like the original Chris who was killed here was not necessarily a better guy, even if he has a happier family situation. Certainly not. Yeah. Yeah. He's seemingly just as violent, maybe unfaithful,

etc. Something's gone wrong with hardcore. So why is it then that he has been fucking around. In this version of society, maybe he's not a better version of peacemaker. Maybe it's a worse version of a world. Right. And so maybe that is why he's tolerated and embraced. And maybe he just realizes I'm flawed, but at least I'm in a better world. that is demanding more of me? Well, and I don't think it'll be quite as like, I don't, I would be shocked if it was like, and this world is actually, this world's bad and our world is great. Like, obviously that's not the case.

But I think having to interrogate when you're seeking validation, who are you seeking it from? And what are they validating you for? Is a rich text to parse with this character undeniably? So yeah, that would be really interesting. And, like, I'm curious to how long it takes the 11th Street kids to open the door, like to figure out how to use the machine. Obviously, I had a Bios witness that she has some sense. Like, are they going to immediately in episode six also be in this other reality and, like, trying to compel him or is it going to take them a little bit of time to get to that place? How many other people are going to break through with them?

In the process of trying to do that, are they going to cause? And I don't think he's just going to do what he did in Superman again. But, like, we've heard enough mentions and had enough from. reminders of the rift in Metropolis to, I think, be on our guard for there are the like interpersonal and community, thematically resonant aspects of the story. And then I think there will be the like question of basically the canon, the multiverse, what is moving between worlds that we also surely will be spending time on or have to confront in some capacity. So are our pals going to do something that unleashes something that unleashes some of

sort of horror back into the prime continuity? Like, is that possible? I think that we will, do you think we're going to have to say goodbye to anybody? I wouldn't be shocked, I guess. We've gotten attached. And then I guess the question of who the most likely cameo is. They're the heavy hitters, obviously.

I don't know if this is the most likely, but I'd love to see Mr. Terrific show up again. Say, here we go again. More multiverse nonsense. some more pocket dimensions. Yeah, that would be great. I'm not rolling out a Lex Luthor cameo given the Bel-Reeve, like, Argus of it all. I think that feels like, you know, I don't know.

Nicole, it seems really busy taking, frankly, perfect selfies. I don't know. But that feels like something that it would make sense for us to see what's Lex up to in prison and also just all of these different like arbiters of power and aspects of government intervention or control like I think that would be at home here if we got a little glimpse of of Lex at some point um but yeah and how do these relationships that peacemaker is trying to just appropriate how did those really resonate like can you just slide into someone else's life that you murdered and pick that up seamlessly it might be the same person on the outside in the

exterior, but obviously different shared histories, different memories, different personalities. And so those will probably clash in some way. You probably can't just slide into this alternate universe and feel at home there, even if you have Eagley by your side. Yeah, I would expect not. I think that Chris did not do a very close reading of the newspaper headlines in the library's your point about what's really going on in this world. That seems clear. But also, like, we've gotten a couple moments where Keith is like, what's wrong with you today? You know, obviously there's an acknowledgement that Chris is behaving oddly, but when does that shift into, you are not recognizable as my brother.

You are not recognizable as a person in my life. And does that become how much of this will be about Chris saying, this is not right for me after all? This is not what I want after all. How much of it is that he is going to keep seeking it, desiring it, and then it will turn against him. You are not the right one. Like I can see either of those.

I can see any number of versions of that. So, yeah. Yeah. I just hope Igley's okay. I'm, I really, I don't want to say goodbye to anybody, but I will not accept saying goodbye to Igley, autobiobos. I don't want to say goodbye to vigilante, but like I feel like at any point he could just get chopped into a million pieces or like dissolved an asset or something. So. Yeah, I'm hoping Igley is untouchable at this point that there's some powerful plot armor there. It would be tough. But yeah, now I'd, I hope that this Chris doesn't fall back into the wayward ways of this other Chris,

who's been popping pills and who knows what else. I'd like to see him lift for once. We just never see peacemakers workout routine, which I've been waiting for. Let's see him hitting those delts. When does he find the time? This is a classic you take. I mean, he's poisoning himself constantly.

He's taking all sorts of abuse. He's beaten up. He's bloody. But we never actually see him training the way that we know he must be at some point. So give me a glimpse, at least, of that. where this show is over. I support you. I'm really invested in judo master's

flaming hot chito consumption. Will he be able to find Cheetos in this alternate reality? I don't know. But it feels right that that's what I'm looking for and you're looking for what's the 3 a.m. gym routine. It tracks. It tracks.

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for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbibank. Zep Zepound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children.

Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills.

Taking Zep bound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has are returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait.

as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

All right, Ben, thank you for joining me for our midseason awards. Let's go now to my midseason chat with James Gunn. All right, everyone, I told him it was copacetic, but he showed up anyway. Yeah. It's James Gunn. Welcome back to the pod. I'm so excited to chat today. We have more time today than the six and a half minutes we had last time. So we have a lot to get to about episode five, the season to date, the future, etc. Can't wait. All right. Episode five, let's start there. It ends with a real emotional wallup. Chris's decision to go inhabit his variance life in the alternate dimension and to close the door behind him. And of course, his letter to the 11th Street kids. Chris has arrived.

at a moment that I think actually a lot of people confront, which is it's not that he couldn't change. It's that he tried to. And in some ways, he actually did. And then it felt like it didn't matter. It felt like it didn't make a difference. And that was true for him in the most intimate ways in his life, you know, obviously his father, his brother, Amelia. And it's also then true, like, in mass at scale. One world is mocking him through an open mic and the other one cheers him as he drives by. So there's validation in one world in the places he would. think to look, the places that he would think he should seek it. And so how, of course, could that not be tempting? But I'm really struck through just at least what we've glimpsed

of the other dimension through five episodes by what seems to be missing there. No eagerly for that other Chris, right? Our Chris said to bring his own. He brought his eagerly, yeah. Tells me a lot. And at least based on what we've seen so far, no 11th Street kids, like no friend group of that, of that sort. So to the extent that you can answer this, given that you're obviously not going to tell us what happens in the final three episodes, more thematically. How much of what you were interested in exploring this season and how much of Chris's journey this season is about realizing that he does actually have the love and the appreciation that he seeks just in a different form? Yeah, I don't think that's really giving away. I think that

definitely the season is to a great deal is about acceptance. It's about accepting who we are. It's about accepting what we have in life. It's like not looking for other things outside of ourselves to make ourselves happy, but instead of being grateful for the things that we do have. And I think that Chris is going to the other world because of all the sort of big, checklist things it has, a father who loves him, a brother who's still alive. a world that thinks he's a hero. But he's also going to escape.

You know, he has changed. But that doesn't mean just because you've changed. You don't have to deal with all of the things that you've created in your life because of your actions. And our lives are what we create. Our lives are born of our choices. And Chris is choosing to say, I'm not going to deal with the fact that I did this and this.

this in my life, you know? Yeah. I'm not saying the justice gang is right for making fun of him, but he killed people not too carefully in his early life. And that's not exactly something that, you know, you know, Guy Gardner making a crack about him that's sort of, you know, homophobic isn't actually, you know, that bad in comparison, you know? So, yeah, I think that's really, that is a lot about what the season's about.

Yeah. Well, let's stick on that, on that subject of just like choices and the decisions that we make and how they define us. Because something that I've really been struck by this season is like how much of it seems to be about split loyalties, both across character groups, but then also, you know, inside of each individual, a heart and mine. My co-host here on the pod and I like fairly routinely, very regularly quote, George R.R. Martin quoting William Falkner, you know, conflict in the human heart. It's the only thing worth writing about. And one of the really delicious aspects of season two, I think so far is that sometimes that manifest, you know, as I've heard you put it, in water seeking its own level. So when we hear hardcore declare in a flashback that the person who killed Rick Flagg Jr. will pay. Like, I believe her. I think that's completely sincere, right? And then now we have this additional ability

to like understand how she received Chris in season one. And why? And then we also understand why she might be so resistant to her feelings for him evolving organically in real time. Because it's not just like, shit, do I want to sleep with the guy who killed my ex and my best friend? It's also, okay, I have to keep telling this guy that I'm not as fucked up as he is because admitting that I am means that I'm as bad as someone I'm supposed to hate. And that's like a pretty heavy realization to work your way toward. But I think it's more honest, right? It ultimately is more honest. And so like structurally I'm curious how important it is to have inside of a season like this, a framework that feels very precise. Chris or Rick, the 11th Street kids or Argus, when really those choices are just portals of another sort inside of this story, like into understanding and hopefully accepting who you are and how you want to live your life. Yeah. I mean, I do. I think that, you know, from one point of view, you know, it takes something incredibly simple to have the most complex

reactions on this group of human beings. And I think that it is, it's, you know, that was really, really for me, like the through way into this season. Because I do, I think I know these characters as well as I know any other characters. And in the same way, I think that in, in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, the secret protagonist all along was... I think that you can see in this season, in a lot of ways, the protagonist is Harcourt, whose journey is equally important to peacemakers.

And as peacemakers on making the big choices, they're having necessary repercussions on what Harcourt needs to face about herself. And she's, you know, dealing with the more, the more simple, you know, concept of somebody who seemingly loves her, just totally loves her. And that is, that's what also complicates Chris's journey because Chris obviously loves Harcourt. And he's pretty, you know, he does not totally open about it, but we'll find out a lot more in the next episode. But, you know, he obviously really cares deeply for her. And so what is he sacrificing by going to this other world?

And we see what I guess I always called Thirst Court, but the internet now is soft court. Yeah. You know, what is soft court? I mean, like, you know, he doesn't love, he doesn't love soft court. Right. Soffort is cosplaying his hardcore in his brain. And so what is that? I mean, he doesn't have, he doesn't know who this woman is. He's right. But they're on a bench for five minutes. He doesn't know. He's in love with her because he's in love with somebody else who looks exactly like her.

Yeah. Yeah. And of course, there's like a version of that with Keith and with his father. It's like when you see the face of the thing you miss or the thing you want, of course, you're, you're going to seek it out. But that's not actually, it's not the same person. And that life is not your life. So I think this is just such a fascinating. heading in context to like continue to explore that evolution and introspection. And I think like one of the things that you're hitting is the like surprising nature of the bonds that develop between people in real time. And, you know, I just love the 11th Street kids and that like found friendship group and the way that it kind of ensnared all of them in a fashion they could not possibly have anticipated. Like that's one of my favorite things that can happen in a story. And I think unsurprisingly, because of that just state of play for me, one of my favorite scenes of the season so far was the rooftop hang in episode two. I just thought it was great.

And like obviously a great way, especially after the long gap between seasons to remind us of those unlikely ties that these misfits have forged together. And then, you know, all of the particular dynamics and pairings inside of that larger hole. But I think what I loved most about it was just the way that it cemented. did the ordinary inside of this extraordinary setting. And I think that sometimes that can feel like a magic trick to ground relationships in heightened worlds, like the Avengers eating shwarma or, you know, drinking beers while trying to lift Mule Nier or like one of my favorite examples of this ever is Padrick singing Jenny of Oldstones before the Battle of Winterfell.

It's just like amazing when things like that happen. You know, people being people for a minute, right, before they're asked to go be heroes again. And I'm curious when you have a scene like that in a moment like that, what you are most focused on showcasing and centering inside of that and why it feels so important. Well, I think, you know, people like seeing the, you know, it's very simple. I mean, people like seeing the 11th Street kids together. And we don't, next episode we have a lot. But I think that there is, you know, there, you know, it's important that we focus on those

moments and make the most of them. And I think that it's just kind of reminding our audience, yeah, this is a group of friends. And at the end of the day, you know, peacemaker, it is not. the same type of show as, you know, even Game of Thrones or whatever, because it isn't a superhero show for sure. It isn't Captain America in the Winter Soldier. It's about a group of people, two of whom happened to put on costumes and go out and do some silly stuff. But at the end of the day, this season would much more likely be called Christopher Smith than Peacemaker. That's really who it's about. And the amount of times he even has on the Peacemaker costume so far that

we've seen is not that many. Yeah. It isn't about, you know, that it's about these, this group of human beings, one of whom, you know, two of whom who actually put on, on costumes and a couple of others who are pretty indebted into the sort of, you know, spy world, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm curious, like, in terms of what we know about everybody and what we don't at this point, just this idea of continuing to flesh out the past. inside of that character set. This story is just very much rooted more broadly in how the past shapes us, right, and continues to shape us. And some of that has, of course, been cortex since the first season and it's just foundational to how we have understood the characters, you know, Chris, his dad, Keith, etc. Some of that is being unfurled for us and revealed to us in real time, like Harcourt's history with Flagg Jr., of course, this season. That's a huge one. And I think the part of why the show

can home at the right frequency as an ensemble is because it is actually like, the season could be called Chris Smith, but it's not, as you mentioned earlier, like with kind of the coat protagonist, just about Chris. And it's not fully oriented just around our understanding of Chris's life. Like we understand now increasingly well. There's always more to learn.

But like we understand what hardcore has lost. We understand what autobi has sacrificed. We understand how this is. one of my favorite, like, through lines of the show so far. We understand how Economos's anxieties drive him and shape him, which is just such a human thing, right? So I'm curious, which character you're most interested in taking us deeper into next in terms of the past life. Yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, in the same way I talked about hardcore being so much the center of this season, I think last season, it really was so much about, you know, out of bio. Yeah. I think

Last season was really about their friendship. And this time it's about whatever you want to call it, a friendship or a romance. You know, and I think also we do get glimpses of, say, John Economos and how he got hired by CIA caught him breaking into the organization. He was a black hat. He was a child. He was pulled. And he's been there ever since. So I got recruited.

Yeah. So it says so much about that character, though, right? Because he's just incredibly talented guy. Yeah. whose focus his entire life on one thing, which is not really a thing he chose to do. It's a thing he had to do because otherwise he would have gone to jail. Right.

And so, you know, but I do, you know, and then I think then, of course, we have Adrian, who I think in this recent episode was one of the most surprising things for me with A, which was it was surprising for me when I wrote it, actually, because I am kind of going on the journey with these characters as I'm writing. And a lot of times they're doing what I've kind of planned out, but a lot of times they're sort of taking their own path. And when Adrian breaks down, that to me is a big thing

where it's like, oh, I think there is a part of this character. Because I always think of Adrian as the guy who doesn't change. Like they all have their arcs. They all change. Harcourt's in a worse place. Adipio's in a much, like despite her circumstances, Adabio's in a kind of kick-ass places. She is, her life is miserable. Right. Her relationship is a mess. But she is kind of happy. You know, you kind of see that she is somebody who's found who she is. And no one else does. Yeah, she's very assured. Yes. And she's happy and optimistic when nobody else is, you know. You know, Conamos is living this life of this thing that he didn't want to go back to Argus. He's afraid of being there.

He doesn't want to be there, but he's afraid to leave. And so they all change. They're all different than they were from last season, except for a vigilante who is, you know, stunted emotionally and psychologically in so many ways. But we do see this moment when he loses his peacemaker and he breaks down sobbing. And then the fact that it's his arch enemy, really, his Lex Lutzer is out of bio. And that's who comforts him and holds him as he cries. And I really like that moment.

And I know it was terrifying for Freddie as an actor, but it was like, I really like seeing that part of vigilante that we don't normally see. Me too. Yeah, I thought that was lovely. And I was actually going to ask you about this later, but I think now feels like an appropriate time. I wanted to talk to you about the way that the really authentic emotion can kind of catch us in real time because I had a really lovely experience when I chatted with David Denman for our listeners, our listeners who plays Keith, heading into the season. And when I asked him about discovering and exploring what Alt Keith, what Keith to, unlocks, but also like unmoors for for Chris, he got he got choked up. He got choked up talking about young Chris and young Keith and the protection that Chris would have needed when he was a boy that he didn't have. And he said it made him think of his own kids. And then he said like, it makes me emotional and I'm not supposed to be emotional talking about stuff on a TV show. But like, my response to that was like, no, that's what we do here. You know, and like it's been one of the great joys of the podcast and of like, you know, just like luxurating in these worlds that we love

and then sharing them with each other and with our listeners because, you know, when people talk about the stories that they love and what inhabiting those worlds can help them process about their own lives and their own experiences, it just can be this like really liberating kind of amazing thing. And I'm curious, like, you know, I'm on the other end of that, right? but I'm curious for you, like, what that feels like is a privilege, but also kind of a responsibility, like knowing that the stories you're putting into the world can do that for people, whether they're your characters or your performers or your audience. Well, first of all, let me start with, like, what it's like for me, from the initial standpoint is I'm sobbing constantly while I'm writing this stuff.

Like, I cry all the time, you know, and there's a scene in next week's episode that I have cried every single time I've seen the scene. Jen and I last night were watching, you know, because we have to, we're doing the podcast, the companion podcast. And we had to watch the podcast that went along with that episode to okay it for the HBO guys. And I got choked up then, you know, when we're talking about the scene and what the scene means. So I'm as invested or more invested than anyone in these characters. I was like that with the Guardians also, you know. But I think that anything that allows people to really truly feel emotions that are about the relationships between human beings,

or that are the nature of us being lonely and needing connection, which I think is what all of my stuff is about at the end of the day, is a really a positive thing to be able to put into the world. And so whether it's just a little twinge in your heart or whether it's actual tears or sobbing or whatever, I mean, that is, that is, that's a pinnacle of what I can do. That's bigger than a jump scare or laughing or whatever. That's really what matters the most to me, you know, because I think that these characters, you know, these characters that we fall in love with, we fall in love with them in the same way we fall in love with our friends and our family in the same way we fall in love with ourselves. I mean, I think, you know, people are always surprised that the characters I see myself in. I think that, you know, people are always surprised that, you know, Rocket was totally me and Guardians. I see myself in Lex more than anyone else in Superman. I see myself in Harcourt in this show more than anybody else.

Like, those are the characters that I kind of myself in. And so there is, I'm not doing any of this therapeutically. Like, that isn't my goal ever. But that doesn't mean that's not the result. old. Right. Yeah, of course. Oh, there are so many different places we could go from there. Let's stick. You mentioned Rocket a couple times. So let's stick there because my emotional connection to Rocket was supreme. I mean, we did like a three. I've covered all of the Guardians movies in depth on the pods over the years. We did like a three hour pod on volume three.

And I basically stopped through the entire thing. It was so I couldn't stop. And so I must for the second interview in a row ask you about Eagley who you know it's just in the midst of a remarkable season um look like all i need to do on the guardians three front is invoke the names rocket lila teefs and floor and everybody who's watching or listening to this podcast is just going to need to go back to therapy immediately so um floor is one of the hard floor is one of the hardest yeah it's really Florida is brutal. Yeah, Florida was brutal for me. Flora was brutal.

Like, I don't know how I was ever able to, but it's just, it's what happened, you know? I mean, I was describing Rocket's backstory and I had to, you know, that's just what happened. Well, okay, so this is actually what I want to ask you because, you know, I would like to thank you for treating us to the eager hero strut at the end of episode two. Just remarkable stuff, astonishing, astonishing stuff. But I do want to ask you about seeing these animals in peril in your stories. I know you're an animal lover. I'm an animal lover. When I watched Red St. Wild hunt eager, I found my self-overcome with like a frankly

alarming desire to crawl through my television and push him into his ritual fire. Yeah. So much of this is like intentional as you're setting down to craft your stories, How much of it is just where you go in real time? Like, when we see these creatures in these states of peril, it obviously is deeply distressing and a source of torment, but that speaks to ultimately how deep our investment is in the characters and in the world and in their relationships and them and the people who love them. So I'm wondering, like, how much of this is, you told me last time we chatted that it's safer

to love an animal than it is to love a human. Like, is it about that? Is it about never deluding ourselves into thinking? that anyone is safe? I mean, I think it's, I don't think it's about any of those things. I think, like, I hate to be too simplistic with all of this, but, you know, like, this is, we're a planet full of animals and humans. And so it makes sense that our stories are animals and humans.

I probably see animals as a greater percentage of my life than most people do. Most people probably see animals as being 0.5% of their lives and humans as being 99. point, whatever. Not me. It's 50-50. You know, my dogs are with me all the time. You know, I just, my animals are, they're a big part. And it's what I love, like in the same way, you know, in the same way, you know, a vigilante does.

I love animals. And so I think that it's just a matter of what I'm telling stories. It's going to be that some of them are animals. And I was excited to be able to get into a little bit more eagley storytelling this season, you know, knowing that we could, you know, afford it and have he got his own fight scene. I mean, I always wanted to have an episode that was all Eagley. Like, you know, I always, I thought about doing an old Egli episode, but it didn't, it didn't, you know, I just didn't work overall story.

But here we do find out that Eagley is not, you know, perhaps not just an ordinary eagle. If you read what it says in, oh, man, I wish I could bring me what it says in the script. But it's about who eagle he is and that he is, he is not just an eagle. He is, he's the prime eagle. I mean, he is. So he is actually the prime eagle foretold and myth. This isn't just like, and that's how it seems because he does, he brings the other eagles with him.

He is theirs. They're like clear leader and overlord. But there is a little bit. Two of the, like, Red St. Wild, it really seems like I'm going to do my own research kind of guys. Yeah, he's going to do my own research. For sure. I think he just happened to stumble upon one percent of what he was saying. Of the truth.

Okay. I love this. Does this, um, hmm. I do not think that killing Eagley would purge the country of its transgression against Native American people. Seems unlikely. Does this mean then if that is in fact who Eagley is, if this lore is real? that the other dimension does in fact have that eagly as well in that standing as well? And he's just not a part of Chris's life.

I don't think you can, I don't think you can say that again, but that you can say that at all. But I do think that you can kind of ask a question a second about why was eagly tapping at the door in the first place. Right. What's, if Eagley is, you know, the prime eagle, you know, if Eagley is an avatar of God in some way, what is he doing with, he's, he's obviously leading peacemaker on this journey that, you know, he seems like peemakers should maybe not be on. We don't know. Like, he's, he's the leader, right? He's the guide. He's, he's the guy. He's the guide. Chris thought he just, it was too cold and he needed to stretch those wings. No, he needed to help you discover who you're meant to be, Chris. Animals, they're the best.

Incredible stuff. I love this. Eagley, every now and then I watch the show and I'm like, you know, so moved by the characters, all of them. I just, you know, I love, I love all of them, but I'm like, man, eagly and vigilante. We've really, we've done something important here. It's hard to, yes, the charm of vigilante. You know, vigilante is so, he's so morally repugnant. I know. He is. He is morally repugnant. I mean, he is morally repugnant. I mean, he says in the second episode of the third season that he kills people for doing graffiti with his bare hands and enjoys it.

Yeah, he relishes it. I find him so entertaining. It's just incredible. So does he, should we assume, given your personal passion for crows that all of his other obsessions, the spiders, the owls, the mantarays are also things that you personally care deeply about.

That's reserved for the crows? No, it's, he's got the same animal. he does not like all the same animals as I do. My animals are different. I like rhinos. I like crows. I like platypuses are my favorite. I like cheetahs.

There's so many animals I like. But I don't, I'm not a big spider guy. I don't care. I don't care about bugs in general. Mander rays are pretty cool. I think that's pretty cool. But I prefer a manatee to a manor.

So I have, we do not have totally. crossover. We're not. Okay. That's reassuring. I have to be honest. That's good. I think you had vigilante not having total crossovers is good news. That's great. Let's talk about spiders maybe not totally your bag, but obviously music is. When I got to chat with the cast at the beginning of the season, I perhaps controversially asked everybody to make a nomination for the season three. theme song, either on behalf of their own, you know, musical preferences and leanings or, or their

characters. They could do either. And I would like to now share their suggestions with you. Well, this is fascinating. Okay. You can grade them. You could say whether one is eliminated or moving forward. You could sit there in silence and judge everyone. It's up to you. Okay. And I should say that almost everybody, though not everybody, but almost everybody started with some sort of preamble about how you are the lord of the playlist. They wouldn't dare, but then everybody made a pick at the end. Okay, good. I want to hear this.

I want to hear them. Okay. Then I'll rank them. I'll rank them for you. Perfect. Okay. So I'll run through them and then let's hear your power ranking. Okay.

Jen eventually went with 90s grunge on behalf of Harcourt because Harcourt really did not like vibe with peacemakers glam metal leanings and feel. So Jen thought that this would be like for hardcore classic grunge versus glam metal as a clash. Okay. So that was the nomination. Frank recommended Casey and the Sunshine Band, I'm your boogie, ma'am, with Jen leading the dance. Okay. Well, already, I'm going to get, I just know these people well enough.

I know Frank's going to come in last place. So let's just give him last place, just off the bat. All right. Okay. It'll be a great surprise if anybody manages to beat him to the bottom. They won't. They won't. Sol wanted to go with a salsa dance with Sasha leading and Steve working as her assistant. Oh my God.

Incredible to think about. Yeah. Yes. Steve recommended David Bowie, let's dance, said he wanted to stick with a glam rock sensibility. Okay. David went with Ignite. by fear is our tradition, calls you a savant, said he would never dream of picking a song ahead of anything that you had suggested, but then said he picked this because it's a song that his

boys really love and his friend is in the band. Freddie did not hesitate. He immediately suggested bewitched roller coaster on behalf of vigilante. Okay. Inspired. It's fine. That heads up. Okay. All right. He was ready. He was ready to answer. And Danielle was the only one who. just what refused was like I'm letting James pick. Oh my gosh, Danielle. Well, Danielle wins,

of course. She wins for holding back. Um, you know, that's hard to rank. I mean, I got to give free props. He made me laugh. So I think that, you know, if we did a vigilante themed saw, I love the fact that vigilante, his real music he listens to by himself is totally different than the music he pretends to jam out to with The peacemaker. You know, he's like that kid in school who pretends to like cool music, but really good. Of course. Yeah. Um, so whatever they're playing at Fennell Field. So he's just been like mainlining for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I think it goes even deeper into girl pop and stuff. You know, I think he likes, you know, um, yeah, I mean, his ring tells Barbie girls. So I mean, what, what do you? He's, he's an icon. He just is.

So I'll give, I'll give him number one. Okay. Yeah, that's not only, his 90s grunge very, very hardcore. It's also very Jennifer Holland. But, you know, I think, yeah, definitely, definitely Frank is in the, like, okay, Frank's a really old man, but he's not old enough to be, I mean, 70s, you know, Casey and a Sunshine band old. I mean, you know, my, I'm here like on a, on a Saturday, just listening to Bob Dylan. I'm 38. Who cares? Some of us are old souls, you know? Frank is, he keeps posting on Instagram about, you know, trying to prove to me that he's a good dancer and he's, he's the worst.

I thought everybody did well. I think that's a difficult prompt and that everybody did well. He had to wear a suit. A lot of people got to wear, like, ath leisure. He had to wear a suit. You can remember dance moves if you're running. He's terrible. He's not as bad as Rooker, but he really,

terrible. Oh, man. Rooker got to dance again, you know, barely closed over the open flame. Oh, that dancing was pretty good. What a showing? He's a 70-year-old man. That's pretty crazy. He did it all night. It was impressive. It was impressive. Okay, Frank and last, Freddie and first. That feels appropriate. I have so many more questions. We're down to like 10, 15 minutes. So I want to, I want to ask you a couple broader D.C. questions if you'll indulge me. And then if we have some extra time, we can we can maybe do some rapid fire at the end. Connective tissue. You know, you're at the dawn of a new entwined universe. What, what can we expect on the DCU connectivity front in the final three episodes of

season two? Like, is there anything you could tease for us or tell us about the volume or nature of what those connections might be? You know, how season two, obviously, Superman the film and Peacemaker season two are already deeply entwined everything with the dimensional riffs. Every time I saw Superman in the theater, the biggest cheer of the

film was when Peacemaker showed up. So obviously the connections are already apparent. You know, Guy Gardner, Hawk Girl, Maxwell Lord, etc. What about moving forward? Incredibly important to, you know, I mean, listen, I want to make sure that people can pick up and watch something without having to see

something before it. Yeah. So that said, episode eight is important to Man of Tomorrow as anything. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Intriguing.

So Man of Tomorrow, you recently announced the date, obviously quite soon. July, 2027, exciting, thrilling. Curious about how you navigate these total shifts as you're working on all of these things. Either the things that you are directly show running. directing, et cetera, but also just more broadly, you know, overseeing the DCU. All of your stories have always featured, you know, I think a blend of heart and humor that is really unmistakably yours. But going from a show like Peacemaker, which, you know, as you've noted, is like not for kids, which people should expect to be kind of depraved and which rewards that anticipation.

to different sensibilities and tones. Like, is that challenging when it is in such a tight span of time? Is that like a stimulating creative pursuit? How do you navigate that as you're actually working on all of these things in tandem? I don't really, it doesn't, I don't even think, I never even give it a thought. I think I, you know, when I'm writing a movie or a TV show or whatever, there's a definite lane that it's in. there's a part of what is natural to that story, you know? And so when you see, you know, characters in one project versus another, there's definitely a different vibe.

And it isn't only like, you know, language or dirtiness or anything. Like, there's a different vibe to Newsmaker. It's just much more gritty and grounded in a certain way. It's gravity is a much bigger. part of the story. And even when actors come in from, I'm trying to remember where we are in the season here in five, so there's a lot more to come. Yeah. But, you know, when we see characters that are in both worlds, you know, instantly I notice that there's a shift in the performances, like rounded thing and peacemaker. And there's something more glorious in a Superman. But even between projects, I don't think that

the story in Man of Tomorrow is it is slightly tonally different from Superman. They aren't that same. It's Superman's more comic booky in some ways of Man of Tomorrow. And it has to do with the dual characters of Lex and Superman at the center of Man of Tomorrow and other things. But I think even in the Guardians movies, if you look at them, they are slightly different from movie to movie. and I think that's part of the fun of everything for me. You know, I always loved when I, you know, like I was so excited when Aliens and Predator got to team up, you know, because they were totally different types of movies.

Alien, a big goofy comic book movie. And, you know, aliens are kind of these gritty, scary things. And even those movies are very different. So I always love that. I love the mashup of different genres and seeing these characters. go from one genre to the other. I'm watching the dailies of Clayface all the time. I'm like, this is totally different, you know, watching episodes of lanterns, which is also

grounded, but not grounded in the same sort of comedic, fucked up way as peacemaker, but grounded in a much more sort of serious way, I guess you could say, you know. And each of these things are different. And what is so fun for me is for them to be in the same world. and to really give the different creators a lot of leeway in what they can do. And when I say that, I also include myself when I'm working on different projects. Right. How crucial does that variance feel to just like successful longevity, you know,

where the genre specificity of each particular story, the sensibility, the ethos, the tone, the vibe, the essence, the way that a character can, as you noted, be slightly distinct inside of one particular rapper than in another, but also like these things all have to fit together, right? It has to track. It has to make sense. It has to hold. You know, I have always thought that these universes that manage to span not only character sets, but large swaths of time for us in real life as consumers, that that is like a really elemental, foundational strand of the DNA is that variance. And I'm curious, like, yeah, how crucial that feels to you?

I think that when you see some of the things that have really lasted for a long time, you know, for me, the DCU is less about, oh, let's tell this big overriding story that everything is going to lead to this moment. And there's things that are like that, you know. There's things that we see. When we talk about some of the stuff with Eagley earlier, you know, there's things that are part of a bigger story that I'm telling. And we're all telling in different ways.

We're all adding to it. But it's much more about creating a universe that people can enter into and exist in any point of time. And if you think of the DC planet Earth, which of course it's extended armed other galaxies and universes, and then you can enter into any place on that at any time and any point of time. And that's what's fun to me is go into this other universe that exists. And so for me, that is what's that's what Star Wars. Wars is, and that's what Game of Thrones is, you know. Those are the two that, to me, you know, Game of Thrones obviously doesn't have the longevity of Star Wars, but Star Wars has the longevity

and people still get excited about it. Oh, yeah. No question. No question. That's the one that, to me, is, you know, exciting. Interesting. Okay. I love this. Grogu, Eagley, team up win. Let's talk about a crossover event. We don't know that. Oh, my gosh. Boy, now that's all I'm going to be able to think about. Boy. So you said like Eagley part of this larger plan.

Will Eagley and Crypto share a seed together in Supergirl? No, they will not. Okay. Maybe one day. I'm not going to give up hope. I'm not going to give up hope. We're not even on Earth and Supergirl. We're off, you know.

I mean, it's not there's nothing. It's not like there's nothing. But like for the story, it's a space, it's a space epic. Well, I believe that Eagley is equipped to go to space. I'd like to see him in a little helmet, a little astronauts. Exactly. Yeah, that would be wonderful. He would be so furious.

He'd be furious. That's true. I want him to be happy more than all. I prefer he'd be happy than I'd be happy. So I'll, I'll accept that answer. I don't think he's ever really that happy. I mean, he's not, I mean, he's, you know, maybe when he's getting pet by piece.

You don't, you know, he's pretty cranky. He is. It's part of his charm, you know? He knows his own mind. No one else is going to trick him into being happy.

He's got to find his own happiness. Which upcoming DCU property would vigilante most enjoy? Is it Clayface? Ha ha ha ha. Um, oh boy. No. I don't,

oh, you mean watching? Yeah. Oh, I think he'd get too scared. I imagine that he's, a baby about interesting he can inflict horrors

directly but he can't passively receive them I think he is probably unable to watch horror movies because they're too scary I love this just one more thing that I love about my guy Adrian this is the best he's the best oh man

I can see him really really rocking out to Supergirl though yeah I think he would oh he would love Supergirl he would love Supergirl he would Supergirl, yeah. Yeah. That's great. You mentioned earlier that Lex is one of the characters, along with hardcore, along with Rocket, who you see yourself in the most. Maybe you put the most of yourself in.

No, I think that's, it's fascinating. People are complex. But I am curious, you know, from on the man of tomorrow front, I mean, the first thing you posted about it was there. There's Lex right there, right? And to the extent that this is something you can engage with at all, what, given your real personal connection to that character and your interpretation of and rendering of that character, what are you most interested in exploring on the Lex front in Man of Tomorrow and in the future more broadly?

Yeah, I think I'm just more interested in getting into the heart of Lex and seeing how he fits into all of this. I think that getting to know Lex more is a human being, I think we saw, you know, a lot about the evil part of Lex. I don't think, you know, it's hard. He's pretty evil. He's pretty good guy. But I think that I just want to get to know.

I think he as a character is really interesting. I think that his, there's something despite everything that is incredibly heroic about Lex. Take aside like morality. It's hard to do. But here is this guy who's saying, you can hold up a building. You can shoot down, you know, planes with your eyes. Fuck you. I'm to take your ass because I'm better than you.

Right. That is, you can't, I can't help but admire his tenacity and his sort of ego and his, all. I mean, his ambition is beyond compare. Yeah. He puts in the work. So is his jealousy. I mean, his jealousy is crazy. I mean, he does this thing that so many of us do,

comparing ourselves to other people and judging our own successes by the metrics of others. And that's something to me that's fascinating about Lex, something that I've done a lot in my life. And there's not a great thing about me nor about Lex, but it makes him full. And to me, he's so much more full than most of these villains that we've seen in these movies,

because he's got his reasons for everything. And, you know, he's the underdog. You know, at the end of the day, Lowe's the underdog. I mean, yeah, sure, he's got a lot of corporate power and these other things that he can use to manipulate things. But he can't fly in outer space.

He can't lift up a building. He can't punch something across the, you know, something across the, you know, three states. He's a guy. And I fucking, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm really excited to see what you do with Lex in the future. We're down to our final minute here. I'm going to try to, I'm going to attempt to ask this in a way you, there is like even a 1% chance you might engage with. Okay. Go for it. We'll see.

Batman. Batman casting news. There's just, there's no news, unfortunately. So here's. It's done. I mean, I've got somebody writing a script. I think it's really good, you know, but it isn't finished yet. So, yeah. Here's my question. Yeah. Your podcast that goes up after every episode, I would say that there are corners of the Internet who are paying close attention to any comment you make that might be perceived as a clue. on the scouting and casting front. Is that something that people should be doing

at this moment in time? If you say, you're watching something. I mean, do I have ideas about acting to play Batman? Absolutely, I do. I have guys I like. I have guys that are at the top of the list for me, just like I had people that were at the top of the list for Superman. But let me tell you something,

those aren't the people that they aren't David Cornswet. Right. So they didn't get the job. So people can guess and maybe they'll be right about certain things. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about specifically. But that doesn't mean that's going to be, you know, I mean. Right. Okay. Totally up in the air.

I mean, I'm going to. Early days. Yes. You know, we'd have to screen test. We'd have to do the whole thing. It's unlikely that I'm going to hire someone that's like, oh, it's, you know, whatever. It's a Sylvester Stallone is Batman. We're just hiring him. He's not going to, you know, audition. I'm saying I'm making up a huge start of an audition. It's unlikely that Batman's going to be one of those guys. But it is possible. It is possible.

I know like one actor in particular who is a pretty big star that wants to be Batman. We've talked about it. But I don't think, but I'm not sure that's the case. Right. Okay. Okay. Intriging. Pay attention.

Watch this space. Watch this space. Such a terrible answer. But it's an honest answer. That's the truth. It's like it's a person of things. It's an answer. Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of people are like, James Gunn is watching 1923. Like, what does it mean? Okay. I see what you're done. Yeah. But listen,

that's a really good TV show. Like, it was like, I can't believe how good that show was. I consume every single second of the Sheridanverse. So, yeah. I watch a lot of it, but don't you find that 1923 is kind of at the peak of all that? Yeah.

I think 1883 and 1923 are my favorites. I think that the prequel spinoffs are sensational. They're great. I think it's 1923 first. Yeah. Then Landman. Landman is to me like a different, almost a different stratosphere of like the human experience. I just can't believe Landman is real.

I, when the trailer dropped for Landman last week, I have never activated so many group chats that quickly. It was like a global event here in my life. I love that you're into everything that's like a world. Yeah, if it feels like a universe, if the characters are fully realized, like, I cannot believe that the characters in Landman say and do the things they do. But I believe that those characters say and do the things that they do. It's just unbelievable to me. What is, does Sheridan get as much shit for putting in, like, actors in different parts of the world, even though he's reusing actors? Does he get trouble for that like I do?

No. I mean, I would say he is absurd. with interest, but more as like a, I think people like consider it kind of a, almost like a bizarre, um, creative affectation or something. But like I watch that.

I watch that he does that. And I'm like, well, that's cool. I love seeing the same actor show up and, you know, I guess it's, it's in, uh, 1920, which one is she? Yeah, the daughter, like, the, yes, in 1923 and then she's the daughter. landman and then like i who's in you know both landman and the the you know jeremy runner show and

whatever yes yeah i like that those those actors show up and to me that's cool yeah but somehow in the dc u people take it when the same actors would show up as if that means it's not real and i'm like it does mean that it's it doesn't it isn't real none of it's real but somehow it seems to ruin the illusion for people. So I'll only do it with Michael Rooker. I think you're free to continue to put Michael Rooker and everything you make for the rest of time. I think it's always a delight. It's always a delight to see him. You know, I think it's also probably helpful that he's often wearing either a fin or a hat. You know, some sort of active costume. No, people do certainly talk about that with the Sheridan casting. But it's, yeah, I think that

it's something about it does feel distinct. But I think my favorite example, of it is um you i assume you watch yellowstone proper as well i've only watched one episode yeah i'm not oh my god i'm not you i'm not a heavy oh my god i well okay i was gonna so i won't spoil then one of the crossover performances that is just like no i don't care from 1883 to yellowstone there's a character in 1883 who appears in yellowstone as just this like there's kind of a meek presence in 1883 and then it becomes a uh kind of like fix or assassin. Right.

Shocking stuff. I love that. I love stuff like that. Well, that's what was funny. I mean, one of the most fun things of doing this season of Peacemaker was Joel Kinneman, you know,

coming in from being a stud and everything. Like literally, he has never not played a stu. He's always cool. Yeah. And he comes out. It's like this mealy-mouth, you know,

you know, guy who's just, it's just, He was so good. He was so funny. I love the trash can moment. That was really delightful. Yeah, because, I mean, the trash can part was in the script. And I wasn't there on that day.

So I didn't see Greg shoot that. And the trash can part was in the script. But what wasn't in the script was that he goes, big deal. Big. And it still makes me laugh every time, you know. It's the best. That was really. Really fun to see him pop up.

I, yeah, I, I'm, and also just obviously in general with like multiversal storytelling, that is such a cool thing to be able to do is to like bring to resurface a character in a new way. I can I very quickly take you to Theory Corner? This will take 10 seconds. Is the alien who comes out of the door to incinerate the, the, the vermin? You know, the rude, the ruffella who won't strike up on neighborly conversation with Chris. Is that another Chris Smith?

No. Let me tell you. The alien, people have asked me a lot of things about to be alien. It means nothing. He is simply the irritating neighbor that, like, he's like the, I think of him as the irritating neighbor from home improvement. You know what I mean? The guy next door that he, you know, from any old sitcom that has, you know, the

irritating neighbor character. You know, so I don't think he's, he's like, he's like what Mel Tuck was in season one. You know, the opposite version of that on the other side of the defense.

It was great. I liked the idea that perhaps that alien, maybe the impugizzed and the Cheerios, that these were all little Chris Smiths from one of the 99 tours running around, Ricking Havoc in some form.

I'm being happy. You'll be happy. But yeah, that's, I think that the alien is, but I do like, I don't know what, I do kind of have in my head what he does. I think he's probably a janitor of some type. Okay.

He's working in a building and those things aren't safe to be burning in their own world. So they take them into the other dimension. And he's just constantly capturing and murdering the vermin from the other planet and putting them into the thing there. Horrible. It's horrible. It's not very, it is. environmentally found.

And who kind of fumes poor peacemakers breathing in when he goes in? I know. Yeah, what's like the ventilation in the quantum unfolding chamber? It makes you think. It makes you think. Okay, so something like judo master's obsession with flame and hot Cheetos, who among us really bears fruit when he leaves the Cheetos? Great stuff.

Multi-season payoff on that front. the alien who won't talk to Chris. Just a dude is trying to do his job. He's trying to do his job. Doesn't have any interest in Chris or what he has to say. And he's just bothersome to him because he just needs to. He wants to get home after, you know, he's probably got a quote of, of vermin. He has to fucking destroy.

No. Yeah, that's all that is. But, you know, I say that, but I don't want people to think this show is canon because I may decide something different. Okay. So the house of our podcast, not canon, you reserved the right to, maybe it is, though, and behind one of the 99 doors. That's the thing. Maybe. And I, and you know, but I, like, when I had judo master eating, you know, Flaming Hot Cheetos in episode three of season one, I didn't know that was going to lead to him, you know, leaving his tracks into the other dimension. I, I love a spicy snack. I love a Flaming Hot Cheeto. I, I would love to know, like, what that guy's

toilet paper budget is. Exclusively eat in Flamen Hot Cheetos is a, it's a choice. When we see other signature stacks for other characters, like, do you, is that part of your your head canon? Like, this is everybody's signature snack. You know, I don't know if you want to pronounce them chakos or chokos. That's right. I say chokos.

I understand that I'm saying it wrong. I don't know. But, yeah, we know about that. We know about that. And I'm sure that other characters will have some snacks that they enjoy. Obviously, hardcore. Hard corn enjoys a good bud light. Yeah.

A coffee and a bud light. Balance diet. Black coffee and a bud light. Fantastic. All right. Well, that's a perfect end note, I think. James, thank you so much for joining us and for all of the time. Thanks for chatting about Peacemaker.

Thanks for chatting about the DCU. Thanks for chatting about everybody's favorite beverages and snacks. I look forward to seeing the rest of the season. I look forward to seeing what routine household objects piecemaker kills somebody with next. Cool. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, Ben, we did it.

We handed out awards. We chatted with James Gunn. You found a way to mention delts, not a muscle that I'm familiar with or could point to. Is that this one? Yeah, that's around there. Well, a little farther over. Yeah. All right.

I will take your word for it. Thank you for joining me for this. You know, usually the last couple of years in mid-September, I've become very accustomed to being able to chat with you regularly about the playoff prospects for my beloved Baltimore Orioles. We had to find something else to talk about this year. Yeah. In one of the other alternate universes behind some door, I'm sure the Orioles have made the playoffs. But thank you for prodding me belatedly to watch Peacemaker. I'm glad I did.

I'm glad you did as well. I'm glad that you're enjoying it. Thank you to you for joining me today. Thank you to James Gunn for making the time to chat with us. And thank you to the 9,000 people who helped produce this podcast over multiple days of recording and production. Carlos Chiroboga, John Richter, Kevin Kiergan. Cameron Dinwiddie, Bel Roman, Arjuna Ramga Powell,

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