House of R - ‘Peacemaker’ Season 2 Premiere Deep Dive. Plus: James Gunn!

Episode Date: August 23, 2025

Mal is joined by Mike Golic Jr. to dive deep(ish) into the ‘Peacemaker’ season 2 premiere! They talk about the continuity retcon, where we find all of our characters, and, of course, the orgy. Later, Mal talks to James Gunn about the show! (00:00) Intro(07:58) Opening Snapshot(18:24) The New Opening Credits Song and Dance(25:24) The Continuity Retcon(31:15) A.R.G.U.S(41:10) The 11th Street Kids(01:05:53) Peacemaker(01:45:30) James Gunn Interview Host: Mallory RubinGuests: Mike Golic Jr. and James GunnProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and John RichterSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borershead committed to craft since 1905. Greetings and welcome to House of Art, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and joining me today, he knows a shitload about owls and he knows a shitload about podcasting. You can hear him on Golick and Golick and the Echoes with my Middle Earthian soulmate, Jessica Smetana. It's Mike Golick Jr. Hi.

What's up, dude? Good to see you. Welcome. This is wonderful that this is finally happening. Very excited to do content with you. I know. I'm hyped. Same.

I put up a Hail Mary this week. I was like, it's Peacemaker Premier Week. I need a specific energy. You know, I need somebody who is prepared to talk about muscles. Somebody who is prepared to talk about the beautifully rich thematic aspects of storytelling. I need somebody who is prepared to talk about the long history of orgies on HBO. Yes. And my mind went to you.

I hope you're flattered. It's an honor just to be nominated for such a prestigious Venn diagram that I can land in the center of here. I am going to try and bring all the requisite dudes rock energy. Thank you. That a John Cena heavy, hard-rocking, dance number-enthused show brings. Will you be dancing? Listen, if called upon, yeah.

I would, my whole life, I have dreamed of being involved in like an impromptu flash mob. Okay. And so the idea of, an invitation. An olive branch reached out

and extended to me. So if you're going to extend that today, I promise I will join in. You have one. You've been told where your cameras are. At any point, you know your eye line. You know that you can break into song.

You can break into dance. And we will support you, mostly because we have the ability to edit it out of the pot. Perfect. So. Perfect. Consider yourself in a safe space here. What do you want to plug?

Where should people find you? What do they need to know? Good plug. Golick and Golick. I do a five day a week, three to five p.m. Eastern show on Fandual Sports Network with my dad, Michael Oleg Sr. Ever heard of them? He's, you know, he's been around.

He's been doing this for a little bit. The hardest part about doing a podcast with you, if you were ever going to do a podcast with your father. It's not the nepotism stuff. It's not anything of that. If your dad happens to be handsome, you will be in hell. Like as a bald man at 36 years old

who podcasts next to a 62-year-old man with a head of hair that will not budge 10 years in the grave, who also lost a lot of weight and got a beard around the pandemic. You haven't known true hell until your co-worker, your female co-workers openly call your dad.

a zaddy and thirst after him online. So that part sucks. The rest of it's awesome. My dad is also a bald man, but he's ready to podcast. So if you'd like to try podcasting with him at any point, Barry Rubin is standing by. Barry, listen. He's ready. My people are going to call your people. I just feel like a bald excellence podcast is what this world needs. Just a bunch of chrome domes coming together to make the world a better place. We can see if Chris Ryan is available. You know, I wonder. What a wonderful colleague?

Oh, man. Okay, we are here today to talk about Peacemaker, the season two premiere, The Ties That Grind. Written and directed. Written and directed by James Gunn. And we will actually be hearing from James Gunn later today. Have a brief chat with James coming at the end of the podcast.

I know. I know. It's like six minutes. But I think we packed a lot in to those six minutes, Honestly. So stay tuned for that at the end. And stay tuned to the Ringerverse social channels, the YouTube channels. We're going to have more little goodies coming from all of the preseason interviews over the next couple weeks. Programming reminders.

Joanna's coming back. Let's go. Joanna's coming back, folks. If you happen to be in Los Angeles on Sunday, Joanna and I will be reunited in person together. We are introducing. We're presenting a film at the American Cinematech, Friend of the Fest. We're presenting. We're introducing Mad Max Fury Road.

Holy shit. What's it like to ball so hard? That's awesome. I'll let you know, man. I'll let you know. It's an anniversary year for that film. That film is beloved. Get to be with Joe to do that in person.

It's going to be great. So swing by if you're in L.A. And you have a chance to come check out that screening. We would love to see you. Next week, we got a full week. Rob Mahoney and I will be covering the next episode of Alien. And at the end of the week, Joe and I will be podcasting. on something. Stay tuned to find out what that is. Could be anything. Could be Stranger Things

Season 2 revisit. It could be anything. We'll find out. The spoiler warning for today. Obviously, everything that happened in the season two premier, Peacemaker, will come up today. If it happened in Season 1 of Peacemaker, it could come up today. If it's happened in the DCU or in the DCU, it could come up today. And as we've already established, but we'll return to multiple times today, if it's ever happened in an orgy on television, it's fair game. It's fair game. I'm sorry to rob someone of like the innocence of seeing potentially their first on-screen orgy and having that ruined by us today.

But that's showbiz, baby. That is showbiz. Rewind or enhanced. I mean, I think part of the spirit of an orgy is it's like a group exercise, right? That is, I mean, it is quite literally a the more the merrier experience.

And so we are going to, as I understand. You're speaking with a lot of authority on this. As someone who's been a part of approximately zero. Orgies. Honestly, I feel about that the way it's described John Cena feels about drugs and his ability to do them on screen because of a laughing experience. Terrible drug guy.

So I would be in that same boat. I really believed it when, again, we've issued the spoiler warning. So anything is fair game now when he pulled out the bag. He said, For a Rainy Day. And it was just full of cocaine. That's a big for a rainy day supply of cocaine. But Chris Smith needs to be ready for all eventualities. You have to be ready for that.

one. A very brief aside, my dad told this story on air the other day and it's the funniest cocaine-related story I know. I can't wait. In getting ready for an NFL season, the league comes around and does presentations about things you shouldn't do. And we've seen this happen most recently in college football with John Matia at a Venmo

to a former teammate that said sports gambling and it was like, hey, it's just a joke, you guys don't get it. In these meetings before the season, my dad was a part of, they passed around to check that someone had signed and in the foreline, and the foreline put four cocaine.

Well, you have to keep an organized ledger. Honestly, that is true. I mean, that's just responsible adulting. That is. That's actually financial literacy and should be lifted up. Exactly. Shame on them for making an example of this pioneer. I know.

Just somebody who is like on top of their finances and all of their transactions and that person, while presumably suspended from professional sports. Yeah. Is not going to have any mystery like what was this? What was this for? What was this like $500? I can't say. I know how much cocaine costs. What was that for? And you what? They'll be able to budget accordingly going forward because they set aside that money just like this, you know, rainy day cocaine. Okay, so this is something that we've all learned. Thanks to your presence here today and thanks to the peacemaker premiere. I would like to now learn something else. Let's go to our opening snapshot. Orient us here a little bit. Tell us about your relationship to peacemaker as a show to James Gunn as a creator.

and to Superman from the summer, the dawn of the new DCU era, just where we are right now with this show, this moment in the gunverse, and all that has come before and now been re-contextualized and re-canonized, which we'll get to. And all that awaits.

Like, where are you on Peacemaker and the D.C. hype in general? So for me, Peacemaker Season 1 was when I came to later, didn't watch it in real time when it came out. Did you watch it three days ago when I hit you up and it was like,

do you want to do this body? I definitely watched it again, three days ago because I can assure you my brain doesn't work great. Alcohol and head trauma are a bad combination and for five years in college, that was my life. So definitely needed the refresher course Harcourt said something similar in this episode. Honestly, it said. Here I am, Lord. It is I Lord. I've heard you calling in the night. So it was good to get that refresher of something that like fits in. And I remember hearing you guys at one point talk about another show that fit into this archetype, which was invincible, which I loved,

which are, you know, these superheroes can be terrible people, can be broken people. Between that, between obviously the boys on Amazon. Like, it fits so seamlessly into a genre of show that I very much loved. And included a man in John Sina who I have been so smitten with Blockers really won me over. Like, I never grew up a huge wrestling fan. So John in that regard, like I obviously knew of them in that reign, like had all the references enough to be culturally aware. but that was the movie where I went, oh, this guy's insanely funny,

has wonderful timing, and then, as you see in Peacemaker, as way a lot of depth. We've seen a ton of wrestlers get into this space. I don't know if any have done it with like that depth and emotion

that John brings to it. So that was kind of my relationship with that as far as like, you know, Gun, big, you know, Guardians fan, like obviously familiar in all those ways. I think his, the comedic and,

injections into this that have always worked really naturally well with a lot of the protagonists he's work with awesome stuff there i would admit to you fully and frankly still haven't seen superman yet so yeah which and i understand like all of the connective points in this obviously in getting ready for this podcast i've heard about all the areas there i'm the one guy that's missed out on that big 12 football fans this season calling it on tn t that's because i've been grinding for you i've been grinding for you all summer yeah i'm hearing a lot of excuses it is a lot of excuses there's really no It's a two-hour movie. And everyone I've talked to says it's so wonderful.

Do you want to pause the podcast? There's a movie theater pretty close to here. You can go see it. Come back in a few hours. Mitcho field trip. Yeah. In which time I will just crush more pure La Croy. Delicious.

Very refreshing. Yeah. So that, I mean, that was kind of, you know, obviously the big splash back into guns version of the DCU as we go forward. And this, you know, kind of seeing very, really right off the top of this episode, how quickly they were going to go back and rewrite that history from last season, reorganizing what's canon and what's not. So I come in sort of on loose standing here. I'm someone that, especially in the genre of superhero films, you know, whether it's been Marvel or DC, had sort of been taking a breather for a while. Sure. A lot of people have. I had come off a decade where I'd

given so much of my time and energy to that. That I was like, all right, what's going to draw me back in? And I will say, this show and I think some of the TV explorations of that, have done a really good job of it because you can go to different places than you can with a two-hour feature film. Yeah. That's another excuse for why you haven't seen Superman. But it was a beautifully stated and very convincing one. I bullshit with conviction is another learned trait. That's a skill, man.

It is. It's a gift, dare I say. Thank God people are willing to pay me to do it or else it really wouldn't work too many other places. I'd have to go into life of being a con man. You'd be a great con man. Thank you. Would you make content out of it one day? would you like live a life of a con man and then prepare the entire time to do a true crime podcast

about it? Yes, I think it's all got to be part of the elaborate setup. You always got to be playing 40 Wizards chess and looking down at the road. It all comes back to podcasting at the end of the day. Conman content. It's just all right there on the hand. It's all right there. See, you're a branding expert too.

This is great. Still haven't seen Superman though. No, I know. I'll try my best not to spoil. I will bring up a couple relevant data points from Superman, but I don't think it will spoil the experience of watching Superman one day when you do. I mean, I'm remembering now, as I say this, it's on, like, you can stream it at home now. It's so easy.

You have no excuses. I really don't. And I apologize for not having it before this. By the way, don't hold back. I have not earned the right to come in here and ask you to not spoil it for me. I agree. I want this to be a formative experience for everyone listening. Don't be held back and shackled by my inability to do the correct homework.

Okay. So you are like basically granting me permission to act like Nicholas Holtz, Lex Lutz, Luther a reference that you do not understand. 100%. We're on the same pitch. You're going to point and nod like I did. My relationship to Peacemaker Season 1 is that I loved it. I thought it was a fantastic season.

I really agree with your framing. I think like Sino was just so, and always is, but particularly as Chris Smith, his charisma, his dynamism was unlocked in full. That like really specific blend of humor. not afraid to be the butt of the joke, but also, of course, convincing as someone who's going to say, like, well, I'm an expert marksman with anything in the world, and I actually am capable of achieving these things.

And the heart of Peacemaker Season 1, the way that we, over the course of just eight episodes, which are, like, pretty brief, they're all somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes when you remove the credits, go from deploring this person coming out of Suicide Squad to feeling such, empathy and tenderness, in part because we see that he is not looking to be let off the hook

for everything that he has done, but is actually interested in, thanks to, of course, the friendship of the 11th Street kids. Some introspection and reflection was just, like, amazing. And I think very vintage gun. I also love James Gunn's movies. I love the Guardians films. I loved Superman. Thought it was great.

I'm excited to talk to you about it once you watch it. And there are a lot of things I love about Guns. movies and shows, but I think two of my favorite things about his style are both really actively on display and peacemaker. One, unapologetically, genre. Like, these are superhero stories. These are comic book stories. And there's no embarrassment about that at any point. Let's dial up the color. Let's dial up how goofy the costumes look. Let's lean into the thing that people love about it. To me, that's like a warm bath. That's just the best. And then he of the three things, the blend of heart and humor, like, maybe best exemplified by Rocket.

Yes. And then the ability to, like, mind some deep emotional truth while people are ultimately dicking around and, like, talking about birds. I just like, you could try to explain season one of peacemaker to somebody who hadn't seen it, and you would, I think, have a. difficult time because a lot of it, at least if I were the one in charge of explaining peacemaker season one to somebody, would be about an eagle hugging a man and why that was one of the most meaningful experiences of my life as a television viewer.

Honestly, though, that is the perfect encapsulation of what that show is. Because at every point, I thought one of the funniest beats of season one is as John is going through, as John Cena is going through, as peacemaker is going through, and being sent on all these missions that he has no idea about, hearing all these code words that get thrown around, and you hear Project Butterfly, and it's really butterflies, and you hear about the cow, and it's really this giant alien that they're milking. And we hear about, in the midst of all of that. Die beard really dyed his beard, but then we all wept as we listened to him, explain how painful the nickname was and why. Gudding.

crushing. I like, sat there with just, like the single, like me and Peacemaker both have like the single tear coming down our face of this man just opening up and bearing his soul in the hopes

that a butterfly wasn't going to fly down his throat immediately after. Like watching him have to do that math. I thought was some of the best acting. I know. It's riveting. Oh, I've got to go and divulge this. But I thought in like in the midst of all that,

like yes, a man hugging an eagle as Otabio did not believe that of all things in the midst of this and then got to watch it like the rest of us did like Peacemaker did to the season was just beautiful. I kind of want to stop the pod while you go watch Superman. I'm just going to rewatch Eagleie's hug highlights from season one. It's just, it's so gentle. And Eagle was never high on the list of things I wanted as a pet.

Until now. Like until I always thought like animal I could get a hug from had to be something in the bear family. Because as a big guy, you always miss out in the experience of being the Little Spoon. Okay. And to be held like that would be wonderful by someone even larger than me. In that case, I think of like a grizzly bear, a polar bear. Yeah.

Eagles on the table now. Okay. You are giving strong. Yes. Torman giant spain energy with the bear comments here. He never fucked a bear. No. Despite him trying to convince everybody that he did.

but I think he would understand what you're saying you seek here and that you long for. To be seen is to be loved, so I appreciate that. Okay, let's get to the deep dive. Let's get to the episode breakdown. We're going to go by topics and character sets, but feel free to go anywhere you want at any point, including to the multiplex to see Superman. I think we have to start. I think we have like a moral, a social responsibility to start with the new music.

This was on everybody's mind between seasons. And we should say between seasons was basically a lifetime. I mean, it has been three and a half years, three and a half years since Peacemaker season one. That is just a great, even in this new era of like, you know, the streamers and the effects budgets and everything takes two years. And that feels like a long time. Three and a half years is like wild. And obviously the DC reset. Sure.

And all of the different things that Gunn was doing in addition to all their factors played a part in that. But the amount of time that people spent waiting for the return of Wigwam and then finding out on the eve of the season that there would be a substitution, I would describe the collective state as one of dread in the walk-up. It was like, could it possibly measure up? Can it be as good? You had a good thing. Why are you tweaking it? We got, Oh Lord by Foxy Shazam as the new song for the season two credits. It's a safe space.

It's just you and me. Nobody's listening. Of course. How are you feeling? Upgrade, downgrade, crime against humanity. Where are you on this? I didn't take the pitchfork out of the closet. Okay.

But I do think it was a downgrade. It was brave and I appreciate them not being afraid of saying, we're just going to try and recapture the magic with something completely different, but at the same time, to me, it did not measure up to the wigwam of it all. There were still moments that I enjoyed. Old Lady pelvic thrust, delightful move. Yeah, who was the MVP of the dance number for you? Mine was, of course, the close-up of Eagley, who was just sort of like.

Well, that was what I was going to ask. And Grillo in a suit. That was very special for me personally, somebody who has loved and been in love with Frank Grillo since I used to say I had a fever. so I could stay home from school in elementary and middle school and then watch Guiding Light where he played Hart Jessup, a formative love in my life. So this was very special.

You know, it was difficult to, like, feel that way about crossbones in the MCU. Not because of the, you know, facial and bodily disfigurement. That's fine. Yeah. But, you know, Hydra. Spoiler.

Yeah. That's tough. That whole, it's hard to really get over that portion of thing. So I'm glad this was more enjoyable for you. Honestly, Eagley was the one I wrote down because I couldn't figure out if he was doing the reject or not. It looked like you had a little, like I thought if you would set that to you're a jerk, it might have worked. Only one way to find out. Honestly, internet.

Guys, get on it. I know someone has the capabilities of editing that I don't to make that happen. I just need to see something. That's all I'm saying. So, yeah, Eagley banner performance there. I did enjoy the little group number with Harcourt out of bio where they step in and out. out of line doing the arm action because that seems like a move accessible to me and most of the population.

Interesting. The effort and enthusiasm going into that was great. I really like that. I like to when the alternate dimension characters came in. So like we have a second version of hardcore dancing differently. I like when aspects of the opening credits connect to like the core text of the show. I think that's like a subtle but smart way to make this all feel like a connected tapestry. Robert Patrick, who's been acting for.

decades and decades and decades being like, yes, I will fully dress in my costume and then dramatically remove my dragon helmet and look into the camera. It was just incredible. That was magical. I really liked that. My feeling on the song is like, okay, it reminds me a little bit. I think this is a more like, this is a more intense and more high stakes version of this because the season one song in opening credits really were genuinely like, a sensation, right? It reminds me a little bit of when House of the Dragon came out, and everyone was like, what will they do? Will it be the same song? Will it be the same visuals for the opening credit? And it was a yes and no. Right.

They kept the song, but changed the visuals, which ultimately just invited the comparison even more, which was clearly a mistake, like undeniably a mistake. The other thing that this made me think of, okay, because I've watched the episode a couple times, the first time I was like, we've made a grave error. Like, we have aired, and it's important to be able to admit that and say it.

But I think just because it felt wrong, frankly, in a way where it's, like, in a season that's clearly going to be about alternate dimensions and, like, confronting a version of your life that's just one degree removed from what you recognize. Like, I thought it was kind of, like, meta in a way I liked. When I went back to, now I'm like, okay, I'm vibing with it. You look at the lyrics. Like, they feel very attuned to what Peacemaker's story is going to be this. season, just close your eyes, boy, and dream of home. There will always be a war somewhere to fight.

I'm like, okay, I get it. I'm starting to get it. And so here's where I landed. This is what it reminds me of. It reminds me of us for years as a viewing public saying out loud, baby Yoda. And then we heard the name Grogu for the first time and we were all like, oh, fuck you. Yeah. No. Yeah. And now I'm just like, he's my sweet baby Grogo and I can't imagine calling him anything else. Like now to call him baby Yoda would feel weird. So I landed in like, I think we just need time to adjust and accept. Well, and I think that we'll see. That does go back to the gap that we had in between. Three and a half years to think about wigwam.

It has been ours for three and a half years, just sitting around and kind of like I do with the, do you have any kids? Yes, I have one daughter sounder on TikTok now. Just randomly having it come into my brain and always being happy when it shows up. So I think you're right. And the experience of watching it. because I'm with you. Like, I went back and watched the beginning of that and everything again this morning. And the experience of watching it after you've seen the episode and, like, when the alternate

crew comes out and you see Keith in his costume now next to everyone, you're like, oh, okay, there's a bunch of stuff in here that feels a little bit more thoughtful. Like, it was very thoughtful to your point in a lot of ways. So I can appreciate the effort that it took. And the bravery again to go back and try and recreate something that was such a, like, stop me in my tracks. Oh, I will not ever take the. option to skip through this. Thank you very much.

Sometimes when we're brave, we achieve incredible things. And sometimes when we're brave, our hubris leads us to devastation. The jury's still out. We'll see. We'll give it time. We'll give a time. We have seven more weeks. Seven more weeks to talk about Peacemaker Season 2.

It's an eight episode season. Okay. Next thing I want to talk about before we get to the characters is the continuity reccom. So even though you haven't seen Superman yet, I'm not sure. that's come up on today's podcast. You will be able to participate in this exchange because you have a scene season one of Peacemaker, so of course you will remember the Justice League arriving,

this huge moment after a season of Peacemaker talking shit about these DC heroes, right? Superman has a poop fetish. Aquaman fucks fish. Batman's a pussy. Like all of that building up for a jesus. There they are, the silhouettes of the Justice League in the sky. Okay.

I like, you normally watch it previously on and it's just like, it's like perfunctory, right? Like maybe you're like refreshing a little bit, but mostly you're just like, I'm kind of, or this is how I view them. Kind of curious to see what they're choosing to show us, like what strands feel like they're most important. I am sure there are other examples of somebody somewhere using a previously on to actually like tweak something and set us in a new direction. I cannot think of anything quite like this, though, where the previously on for Season 2 of Peacemaker was used to retcon the canon, to retcon the continuity and take the show

from the DCEU and put it in the DCU. We got even just the words flashing previously in the DCU. It's like it wasn't previously in the DCU. And I just kind of love this. Like, I just think that James Gunn saying, I'm the overlord and I can make my personal thing canon if I want is honestly like a great flex. And the fact that he's not just doing it with season, there's a bug. Guard your orifices.

It's it a butterfly. What if it's a butterfly? What if it flies into our mouths and takes over our brains? Honestly, that would be incredible planning on your part if you brought me all the way here just to have. me taken over by one of the butterflies. I regret to tell you that we don't have any like golden amber liquid for you to drink once you become a butterfly. Just please God mouth.

I really don't want to do the butthole version of the diagram. I would really rather not. The butthole diagram was so good. That was just a great scene. I loved it. He's doing it with Suicide Squad too. He's doing it was like the fact that Rick Flagg Sr. is, and we'll get to this more in a minute is like, yeah, we hear Economos and Audubio talk about this.

Economos confirms it. He's like, yeah, he knows that Peacemaker killed his son. And he's obsessed. Basically, he wants Peacemaker surveilled 24-7 so that he can catch him fucking up once and like get vengeance. That all happened in Suicide Squad. So that, just acknowledging it, these characters in this show saying that out loud, makes that DCU canon, which is just like kind of amazing.

And dubbing autobio, dubbing an autobiol line from the end of season one to have her say, outright say, maybe you could call in the justice gang. The justice gang introduced in Superman and then have them arrive and it is, we see the silhouette of Mr. Terrific. We get close-ups and then they're elsewhere in the episode, Hawk Girl and Guy Gardner. Nathan Phileon has yet to fail once. I said it during the Superman pod. I'll say it again. He's yet to fail once. He wants, like, you know, he thinks I'm a Pugh Creek.

Incredible stuff always. And we see the Superman and Supergirl silhouette. So, like, this is just all a slight. It's all, like, little. It's a line here, a Chiron there, the swap of a silhouette here. And then it's, like, the thing you loved, you don't have to worry about whether it's relevant. We made it work. And I just think that's, like, pretty cool.

It was, look at me, I'm the captain now. Totally. In the form of a flashback here, like, getting the, oh yeah, I puked on Green Lantern, riding the Green Magic carpet. You know he's kind of, like, it was one more, like you said, like going through that paying attention because what you choose to put in front of us,

to me, I was always setting the table. But then it's like usually I always get into the little of like, oh, that's the kind of like, if I need to check one more thing on my phone or send one more text message. And then all of a sudden I heard that and I was like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, you got to lock in. We're doing something here. Every single thing is like deliberate.

It's a deliberate choice to position. us in some way as a viewer. Fascinating. But to like see that where someone goes back and completely hijacks that and says, nope, just doing something different now was immediately put you on your heels going into this episode. No way that was good. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

I thought that was really fun. And like, I'm sure there will be some people who are like, okay, like, is James Gunn going to try to preserve anything from shows or movies other people made? The answer's no. And you know what? Good to be the boss, I guess. Honestly, that's what, when you were the guy in the chair with the pen, you get to make those decisions. And there's a reason you're here.

You know, you can talk about returning production. If you got a bunch of starters that weren't any good last year, got to come and swap mall. It's hit the portal. You got to leave room for a guy gardener or puke freak. Me too. Do you believe it? What do you think? Is this like, is this slander or is this just like cold hard facts?

No, I feel like that's got to be a fact. He gives off puke freak energy. I agree. Yeah. I can't wait for you to see Superman and spend more time with him. There's a lot of commentary about his haircut in that film and the number of women who he claims signed off on it

and think it's great. Oh, interesting. All right. Really wonderful stuff. All right, let's talk about some of the characters. We are going to hit Argus, the 11th Street Kids, and then Chris Smith, the titular peacemaker. Argus, we're going to keep it pretty quick because these characters didn't get a ton of time in the premiere.

Rick Flagg, Sr., the aforementioned Frank Grillo, and Sasha Bordeaux. new to the show. Rick Flagg Sr. has kind of like been all over Guns, DC Productions. He, of course, is in Creature Commandos. He was in Superman. Seems clear he's going to be in a lot of stuff moving forward. Sasha is like new to our screens. Obviously, that's a comics character who people are familiar with. But interesting right away to see their dynamic with each other, but then also, of course,

the way that like bleeds into a character we have a deep. attachment to Economos, Bordeaux is, it seems like, Economos's direct supervisor, basically. And she, there's this little moment where she, they catch us up on exchanges that Bordeaux and Flag have had before, where she's basically like, I don't, like, I don't trust this guy and I told you that. He's friends with peacemaker. Like, he's friends with the guy you're surveilling.

Of course, elsewhere, we got this very, I thought, very sweet and kind of like vintage peacemaker moment in the scene with a Conamos and, Adabaya where she's like, you don't want to, like, betray him because he's your friend. And Economist is like, I wouldn't go that far, but, you know, like, they can't, they're not all quite ready to say yet, like, I love you and you mean something to me, but they would actually do anything for each other. They just want to do it with, like, thought and care. I think that's a really interesting, like, state to find their friend group in, the individual

dynamics and kind of the collective dynamic. And Grillo, we know what is driving him. Peacemaker killed his son in the suicide squad movie. He stabbed him through the heart with a broken piece of bathroom ceramic. One of the worst things to get stabbed with. Terrible. I mean, I would be so worried about all of the infections if I were not about to imminently drop dead. Yeah, no.

So he didn't have to worry for long. Like, am I going to need a tetan shot? This sucks. There's no way I am personally up on like all of the knowledge that I would need to like properly treat the wound. He didn't matter. He died. No, yeah, exactly. Rest and Power King.

We miss you. I still think about that final moment. Peacemaker, what a joke. And, like, obviously, Peacemaker himself thinks about that. And it is this, like, specter, this looming specter that haunts him, this indictment, right?

The way that he justified all of his atrocities to himself, peace at any cost, right? To have somebody with their final breath say to you, everything you tell yourself is a lie, like, to continue to feel the way that that is impacting him and has led to actually a lot of progress for Christmas. But Rick Flack, Sr. doesn't give a shit about any of that. First of all, he doesn't have access to it, but he wouldn't care.

He's like, you're responsible for causing meat pain. All we get in this episode is just like the setup for that. But I like the idea of like Argus and much like Waller in season one, like a person in position of authority, not just like the butterflies or some sort of villain in another form, which I'm sure will also happen. Sure. But like, the person who makes decisions about whether you go back to prison or in, you know, Harcourt's case, right, we will get to her. But like, the idea that Waller is still destroying and controlling her life. Like, that's obviously like a core interest of the show is like, how do the suits and the people behind the fancy desk try to control you?

And for that person to be not just trying to use you as a tool, but actually trying to maybe, like, destroy you. Interesting dynamic, I think, for the season. I think having that sort of like different, maybe not existential, but like certainly a real world pressure and threat that's always sort of hanging over as the through line, like sort of the way in Game of Thrones, you had the White Walkers where you have all this conflict going on elsewhere and things people are trying to accomplish. And then you have a looming constant threat that everyone sees right there. And with Waller in season one, it's I have a goal to try and frame peacemaker for all this that's going on. So while the rest of this is going on, we've got this thing to constantly contends with,

that's always going to be driving things forward a little bit. And it feels like they're setting it up where it's like, all right, clear revenge motivation. Easy, cut and dry, point A to point B. We'll see if it ends up becoming that easy because in last season, you know, there was less of like the, like everyone else got growth. Like this could be the one like flat through line where everyone else grows around it. It's sort of the same way with Waller in season one. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that's a great point. I really, I always like when one of the threats or one of the opponents, one of the sources of conflict is like another person. And I say that as like a genre obsessive, right? Somebody who loves zombies, ice zombies or otherwise, or any other kind of like mystical force. And one of the things, only one episode in, but one of the things, you know, both obviously established in this episode as we'll get to and just like in the trailers for the season, the way they're marketing the season that is so tantalizing is that. that we're going to go to an exponential level with the like human versus human because it's going to be like another version of yourself. Right. And like, you know, a show that I really loved and really loved covering with Loki. And this idea, and this is obviously like often at play in

multiversal storytelling, but when you confront other versions of yourself, like, what do you learn? Right? What do you see that scares you? What do you see that energizes you? And, and, and, and, and, And I mean, this episode of television ends with Peacemaker, killing a version of himself, killing All-Peasmaker or Peacemaker 2 or whatever we're going to call them. And like, James Gunn has said, he said in a little like after the episode, inside the episode, The Feature at 99 doors in the Quantum Unfolding Chamber, 99 realities. Like we hear the alternate dad, alternate Augie, mention the Munchkin imp dimension, that they used to fuck around it.

It's like we see the very scary silent alien come through the door and incinerate a space cat? What happened there? Very distressing. Honestly, that whole scene, by the way, which I know we'll get to,

perfect encapsulation of suburban neighborhood dynamic in so many ways. Trying to say hi. Like when you go after the morning paper, your neighbor has no interest in you. No interest at all. And then hopefully the comp ends at the incinerating above.

Yeah, no, so far I haven't seen that in the neighborhood. But various levels of pants, all these things, definitely involved in that. Which are you? Are you the like, hey, how's it going? And then like, well, fuck you, you like, cryptkeeper? Or are you the someone is trying to engage you in conversation? You're like, I have a task. I am trying to be the former after having been the latter.

Where I lived in Connecticut, I was the I would avoid my neighbors at all costs because I didn't have time for this. And now I'm trying to be waves at everybody. So trying to be... Interesting. Trying to be a peacemaker in a world where I was the freak alien burning this cat. Never burned a cat, to be clear. It's an important thing to say. It's an important thing to say.

And make sure it's abundantly clear to anybody who's consuming this. Absolutely. But no, I think you're right about it. The multiverse thing originally like can sometimes scare me because we're obviously doing that across genres and in a bunch of different shows and series. And the one I always go back to and the one that, I hope this has a chance of most closely animating. Because what you talked about, like, confronting the other versions of yourself was my

favorite part of the Spider-Verse series. Yeah. Like, I think that is such a beautiful franchise. Yeah. I mean, high-bar. High-bar. Incredibly high-bar. Yeah.

I mean, put it up there with the best. But it made the multiverse a feature to explore what's inside every character without making it the entire show's personality. Yeah. And I think this show is a very good chance to do that. just because the foundation we have is always going to be in this band of Mitzvits in the middle of self-exploration journey that is ultimately the heart of the show.

The band of misfits, the fact that that obviously was like core guardians text, it's core peacemaker text with the 11th Street kids, like these people who don't belong and don't feel like anybody else understands them or wants to give them a chance, and then they can find that with each other. I think that the idea of Argus, going through Economos as like the lens,

the portal through which they can see or track peacemaker and trying to use somebody as a tool and as a wedge who, even if he's a little more reluctant as a member of that group than like out of bio or like the most enthusiastic member, of course, vigilante. He still like knows what it means to feel that bond with another person. And so like Rick Flagg saying go find out what's happening in there.

What that is, obviously one of the things that Bordeaux and Flagg, like an exchange they have in this episode is like send someone else to watch Economos because I don't trust him. And Economos is worried that they don't trust him or that it's a test. So he goes to autobi. Like that that's a pretty tangled web for one episode of TV. But it's really working for me so far because it is rude. in each individual person's sense of loyalty. Is it loyalty to your dead son, who you feel you have to avenge? Is it loyalty to the mission of the job?

Is it loyalty to split loyalty? On the one hand, I have like a job I don't want to lose. And then on the other hand, I have these people who like actually, like, some of them were dicks and made rude jokes about my beard. And then some of them, like, made me feel like I had friends for the first time in my life. And, like, I mean, we can go right into the 11th Street kids from this. And two, I'll go a little out of order. Like, we'll hit Economos.

just because we're talking about him already. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA.

Zepbound is approved as a two-perienced. 5.5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder

problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit zepbound.lily.com. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to

improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine Neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect

its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it's surviving. Lives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, Annette Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. I loved when they sent him to find out what the blip was, what the anomalous event was. And

he's explaining that there's an orgy and flags like, why do you have to like always be such an asshole? And Ogonimo says, probably because I have some major chemical analysis. That was just like incredible. great Economos moment and just very emblematic of the humor of the show. I loved it. No, he's great. He is. He is wonderful and such a reluctant part of everything he's ever been involved in.

No one's desire to be left the fuck alone surpasses Economos in terms of just wanting to sit and be able to do a minimally invasive portion of this job and go largely unnoticed for fear of someone recognizing and realizing that he has in fact died his beard. love that we find him in that surveillance van still because that's, of course, in a different context, but like that's where he was in season one. And then the idea of being like the one person who's left in that space when everybody else goes out into the field to like try to fight the butterflies or like fight judo master. And then like, who's the one who actually knocks judo master down? It's Economos. And he was like so proud. Right. And then of course, like doesn't tie him up properly, lets him escape, etc. Like the economist experience.

Like he's kind of saying, I don't want to do it. I don't need to do it. When they kind of put him into the field in the finale, he's got to put the uniform on. You were already talking about this. Like, that was such an incredible stretch because you see, you know, the multitudes. And like he's like one of the more relatable characters for a number of reasons, right? Like he's found himself in this heightened extraordinary circumstance and he doesn't necessarily want to be on the front lines. But like sometimes you're called upon to do that.

that reluctance is always just so interesting to watch because the people who are like, I'm the best, I'm going to do the best job, like put me on the front line. We have a lot of those in this show too. Actually, almost everybody else is like that. But everyone's relationship and journey to that is different. And I think that's the funny part about Economos is he's kind of held steady

and like, I don't actually want to be here when I step up and do it. Like that was out of bios transformation is she realized and now going into this season, I do badass shit. She can't handle me for that. When in season one, she wasn't sure. She was constantly trying to pull out of all this. She went one direction where now she's all in to the detriment of the relationships in her lives. And for, you know, on the other side of that, he's still sitting there kind of wanting to occupy the same space he always has.

Right. I think the autobiology and arc has been one of the more, like, compelling to watch because it's like, you think back now, we look at where we find her in the season two premiere. And like when she says to peacemaker, even just the fact that she's picking him up, you're like, okay, I'm relieved. Like their buddies again. They're back. Like they got through. They worked through their shit. They're talking about, he's asking about her relationship.

Like she's asking what's, you know, it's so weird to see you come out of your father's house. Like you under, yes, about hardcore. Does she mention me? Like they are helping to guide each other forward, but they're also comfortable being vulnerable with each other. And when she said in that car to him, I'm about hardcore shit now. That's what I do. Great stuff. You know, the business card, reliable, stylish, deadly for her security consulting company. There's this confidence that as autobiophans were like so thrilled to see because we wanted her to believe in herself more in season one. But then like I love the way we now think back to what we watch in season one. And it's like how much of it was, I don't know if I like this. I don't know if it's what I want. I don't know if I'm good at it. I don't know if I'm ready for it. How much of it was my mom is like making. me do a thing that I don't think is right or that I was fine with and then suddenly find that I

am in a position of like authentic organic moral, moral quandary over because I have developed affection for people who I was basically tasked to like work. I mean, that's all amazing. So the fact that like she made the choice that she made at the end of season one and has as many other characters remark in the episode kind of fucked as a result. Economist being like she's like, she's like, I'm not fucked and he's like, you're living in the worst level of Grand The Cotto was incredible. One of the best lines in the entire episode. Perfectly delivered, great line. Very funny.

And she's just like, she has this, like, charm and this good natured. I did. You got. Boom. Post that. Clip that with the Superman stuff. That was amazing. I feel pretty cool.

Look at that. The reflexes and agility of a top tier. athlete. Still got it. Still got it. I was like, but you got it. You set it up.

You like loosened the jar and I just popped it open. By like flailing at it with such chaotic energy that it felt compelled to move away from me toward you. Exactly. You blew it over here and I just

bump set spike. What a great team we are already. Much like Audubio and Economos, he's like I know that we need to tell Chris but I don't want to do it. Will you do it? She's like, Athletes foot is still in business?

That was also great. I have to say I did not know that. I knew that Foot Locker still existed as a physical store because I recently, by recently, this was already probably like two years ago, had to, I was chasing down a pair of baby Jordans for a friend's baby. And I, when I say chasing that, I was like on the way to the party. And I was like, got to figure this out. My sister in Christ, I am with you. I am with you. Discovered that there are still shoe stores at malls, you know, after most of my recent life.

transpiring on my phone on my StockX app. So that was news to me. Reassuring a little bit. Like every time I go like drive by somewhere where there's a Kith store and I see a line out in the streets, I'm like, you know, obviously like you don't want this to go the other way where people are fighting and there's violence over it. But I'm like, you know, it's kind of good. Like I'm glad we're still doing that.

Speaking of people fighting in violence, let's talk about Harcourt. Hell yeah. It's just astonishing stuff start to finish from Harcourt in this episode. Oh, the psychiatrist scene is just beautiful. all time at her core. Okay. So I thought that scene was amazing. I,

the humor of like, because you're kind of like, all right, it's probably going to be a hardcore scene. You know it's going to be a hardcore scene, but even so, just the like focus on this dude we don't know saying,

toxic masculinity, and then the pan, and she's like, I have a vagina? I was like, I figured just an incredible, reintroduction back to that character. I thought again, that's a scene that really captures the variants of the peacemaker experience where like there are a lot of jokes, there's a really

kind of like harsh, deliberately, like harsh quality to it. And then it cracks open. That shell cracks open for a second and you see the vulnerability beneath it. And Harcourt, standing up and saying, like, I've given my life. I've given my entire life. to serving this country in all of the ways that people asked of me. And now what? Everybody has abandoned me in turn. And like, what am I supposed to do with myself then? Felt very seen on the, you're really got to assess your work-life balance front.

Who do you think has more of a tough time with work-life balance? Heartcourt or us. What do you think? Please don't make me, like, much like the characters in this show, I don't want to say it out. loud and admit what I know it's true. It's 100% of it. This is Friday afternoon. It's 5 o'clock on a Friday. I can't tell you how lame we should feel right now and don't. I know. Like the fact that we're willing to like, oh yeah. I literally, when you hit me up by this, like Friday afternoon, I don't have plans. My next step is to watch two big 12 teams play football

in Ireland tomorrow morning. I got a free weekend. I mean, what a wonderful Saturday though. Honestly, it's fucking so cool. I love football. I can't believe football's back. Which fan base do you think Harcourt would fit with the best? Oh, wow. Okay. I love this exercise. Like the I go into a bar specifically to seek out a brawl with people I know are going to piss me off.

Who is? I wonder if it's, I'm trying to figure out which side of the Texas, Texas A&M Horns Down this is. This is where I went to. Oh, wow. Because it has to be the absolute certainty baked in of like there's only one place this goes. Like that's the starting point. Right. There has to be a deep and abiding disgust for the person in the other barstool or on the other side.

The other thing I consider it was like South Carolina Clemson. Yeah. Well, and again where you want like you need the fight. You crave it. Have to have it. You have to have it. That resistance. You have to have it just to feel alive.

Yes. I need. I need to hit the fight. the good stuff right now and she got it. Yeah. There's no for a rainy day with Harcourt. It's every day. It's every day. All gas. No. All gas, no breaks for her. The bag of cocaine is always open. She ripped off some pretty great zingers in this fight. I thought that the like ability to ratchet up the savagery that we would be expected. We see her gone. We know what's going to happen. We watch season one. We know what she's doing there. But my job was on the floor. I was like,

That was, you know what? I always, like, gives me a little, like, I kind of can't help. The breaking of a forearm. Every time. Every time. I can't, I, like, I am not a squeamish person by nature. And you can always kind of tell when it's going to come, like, you see the elbow locked out. And you just know, and I always kind of quarter turn away. It's painful to watch. It's painful to watch. I'm worried about hardcore. Well, I was going to say, because not for nothing, the biggest difference of season one

to season two bar fight scene hardcore is she gets her ass kicked in this one. Yes. Like in the first season, it is all about establishing, oh, we have this badass. She handles everything herself. Peacemakers like that's so hot where she can openly court this chaos, but always control it. And here, much like the rest of her life, it spirals out of control in a way that you still see the sick sense of, all right, I love contact. Yes.

She's a linebacker that wants to meet the fullback in the eight. gap. I'm sorry to keep doing the football stuff. It just happens naturally. But she relishes that. And in this case, cannot control it in the same way that we saw her in a very similar context in season one control it. Right. I think that's a great point. And I think it's like, I read it as kind of like two things in tandem. That, like the inability to guarantee the outcome. Yep. Right. This is a person who is, you know, when everybody in season one is like, all right, well, like, we need a new boss. Who's it going to be? Everyone looks in the same. same direction, right?

It felt to me just as much like she didn't want control, like, that she kind of has lost the ability to be able to discern the moment to pull back, but is relishing that. Like, when she is, so she dispenses plenty of punishment, but then also takes a heavy, heavy, heavy beating. when she gets deposited on the sidewalk. And there's that lingering shot on her faces she's looking up at the moon. And she's covered in blood. She's covered in cuts.

I'm like, is she smiling? Like, her response to that was not. And maybe with further reflection, it will be, all right, like, what does it mean if this is how I'm spending my time? What does it mean if this is where I am? But, like, she felt something in that moment. and that was what she's seeking. That's her drug. That's the high that she's chasing.

And part of it is because, of course, she doesn't feel like she's getting anything anywhere else. And of course, like there's another interesting version of that with her in this episode, which is like Chris going to seek her out to ask how the interview went. She's like, it went like shit, right?

His as well. And I thought this was a great scene. She's been beating the dashboard, right? So, okay, wait, before we get to the hardcore piece, maker dynamic in this scene. What was your read on the 30 seconds to Mar's slander in this scene and in the mid-credit stinger?

Is this James Gunn, like, my suicide squad is the only one that matters. Fuck the earlier suicide squad where Jared Leto gave a unique performance as the Joker. We'll call it that. Was it about that or was this just like music snob stuff? Or is it a why not both?

I was sad. This feels very porcernalos. Like, I think because of how very clear and intentional everything else has been, I am going to give the credit to Gunn and say that was absolutely a Leto Swipe. I think so. Which I deeply appreciate. Like, that's a level of petty we should all ascribe to. It's just incredible stuff.

It's really good. And then going back to it. Like the Stinger being the scene of them walking up the stairs still talking about it, very, very funny. I loved this scene. Chris walks by the past due notices. Little things like that. It's like it tells us something about where our heart court is, right?

We know she can't get a job. She's like, it's the fucking entire alphabet of intelligence agencies that have now rejected me. She had previously said, like, Waller is blackbooking me. Like, I know what is happening here. And that, of course, just makes it more frustrating. If it were a mystery, you'd be like, well, let me figure out how to improve my structure. She knows why she can't break through. But from peacemaker's perspective, it's like he is paying attention, right?

He's interested in this person sexually, obviously romantically, but like he does care. The way that he took the cloth and filled it with ice and like gave it to her for her knuckles, I don't know, there was this just like little but very palpable aspect of real tenderness between them and that scene that I loved. And like when he said to her, you know, if it makes you feel better, like my interview went like shit too. And she's like, and this is in a scene where she's about to tell him, I don't remember. fucking you. Okay, like, fine, I do, but like, it was a mistake. She's like, that doesn't make me feel better. Like, I know you wanted that. And that shows us that she, she might not be ready to say that loud, but like, she cares about him too. She doesn't want him to be sad.

Which is amazing because it felt like, I don't know, at the end of season one, all the progress, like, whatever we find out happened on that boat in totality. Because again, we know that happened. We don't know what led up to it. Right. Right. the circumstances around it, like, there's something there because there is a little bit more friction than I felt like we left off with in season one amidst that tenderness. Like, that's the parts that we remember, the hesitance on both sides. And maybe that is, you know, for all the progress they've made, that's still an extra leap into actually becoming romantic, especially for Pete's maker, who we find out later,

will always revert back to his very specific relationship with physical intimacy. say. But yeah, no, it was very sweet. And I think for both of them, like, hardcore being a raging badass, I mean, Peacemaker, obviously being this hulking giant to see moments of tenderness like that, just the like, the visual of it to me is always very striking and very pretty. Yeah, I love that part of his character. Like, we get a fun moment in this episode with the orgy where soul, when Economos is relaying what he's seen and soul's like, well, you know, like Christmas, like famous free spirit. And then even the way you see him in that in that orgy and, like, behaving

and who he's open to. It's like, yeah, like, kind of pretty progressive guy. Well, I mean, it goes back to when he gets rejected earlier by the justice gang, and he's like, he's like, they told me what, that was sucking dick, and it's like, that's a compliment.

He's like, that's a compliment. Yeah. Like, this is, this is a man who, like, he's plays by his own set of rules. He is very open-minded. That was so good. What did you, okay, what do you think about the fact

that they finally hooked up off-screen? Because this is obviously, like, an anticipated thing among peacemaker fans. So I was, I honestly was kind of like astonished by this. Yes. Not to learn that it had happened, but for us not to see it,

all I can land on is like, okay, because we'll get to obviously everything in the alternate dimension with peacemaker shortly, but like we learn. Keith mentions the X and then he go, Peacemaker makes his way to alt, Peacemaker's room and sees the photo of Harcourt. Like, Harcourt is the X.

So in that other universe, they're together. All I can land on for why we didn't see them hook up and were just told that they did is so that we can then build toward like the comparative frame of reference for what it's like to him to be with both of them. Like instead of us already knowing what it's like for them to be together, we then see him. I have not watched beyond. So I don't know if this is coming. My assumption is like we'll see them interact. other Harcourt and this peacemaker.

And then, like, we'll work our way back towards seeing him in our Hard Court? I can't really think of another reason why this would have happened off-screen. Yeah, well, I guess, to me, I think it could feel like the build-up of when in season one we finally see when and how he is a part of his brother's death.

Like, we hear it referenced often. It is a central part of him as a character, the motivation, the relationship between him and Augie, but we don't see it until the very end of season one in maybe the same way that, like, again, their relationship across all these different facets, 99 doors is going to be such a central part of this going all the way back to the open of the show where in that dance scene, like their intimacy, multiple instances of current peacemaker and current hardcore hand-on-cheek very close together. Like, that's it. And so taking us away from that like euphoric moment where we finally

see them get together and making it more about all the anxiety around it. Yeah, it is like a fascinating choice to already present it as an absence. Like it's something that's been lost before we got to see and participate in seeing it gained. It's a fascinating structural choice. Do you think we'll actually get a flashback? I think we will eventually. Honestly, in an episode with an orgy, it only makes sense that there would be some edging that goes on. That's all I got.

That's the perfect segue I think into talking about vigilante for a moment. Oh my God. Okay, I have two notes on the premiere. Okay. Which I broadly really enjoyed. Not nearly enough eagerly. We'll get to Igley a bit in a moment, but not nearly enough eagerly. And not even close to enough vigilante.

No. I mean, I guess you could say if you had like willpower and restraint and the mind of a creator, you could say, like, dispense with care. That's not my feeling about it. I would watch 5,000 hours of vigilante happily. The director's cut of like vigilante and economists just doing the riffs on the phone, which we found what? We found out phone calls every day still, which is.

This call about owl facts was even better than yesterday's call and even better than the day before that and all of the other ones. Like, okay, so vigilante, this was interesting. We'll talk about his professional circumstances of Fennell Fields in a moment. I have some questions. I have some thoughts. I love that we continued. There's a very organic spark, one-sided, but a spark from Vigilante's perspective

toward Economos at the end of season one. I love that this is continuing. And that he is like, you're my guy, and this relationship is a real thing and an important thing. He's seeking it out. He wants it. He's viewing a lot of his self-worth through the idea of that friendship.

However, he's not moved on from peacemaker. Like the way that on that call with Economos, he's like, have he taught the peacemaker lately? Like, he seems really bummed out. I think he thought that after saving the world, everyone would finally treat him like a hero, which is obviously a core part of the peacemaker text in this episode. But like, he cares. He's paying attention. He sees what peacemaker is going through. He's aware of what his friend is like carrying, right?

And I like finding him in this place where he is then branching out but has not left peacemaker behind. Like, that's still OTP. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, how you orient yourself around, like, your high school or college friends as you go off into these different phases. Like, the friend groups merged and all these side quests started, which is beautiful. It's what you want when these kind of things happen. Yeah. But it also always goes back to, well, no, me and me and Peacemaker have history.

Like, we have been through things together. We've thrown bombs at appliances in the forest. There is no stronger bond between adult men than that. Economos, when you blow up a fridge with Vigilante, get back to us. Until then, we're not really interested. We're not levels to this. One person who's not interested in even pretending that he in Vigilante are friends is Dave. Dave has been promoted from dishwasher to manager.

It seems of Fennell Fields. And here is my question. Why has Dave not fired Adrian? Right. I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't know what the candidate pool is. right now for Fennell Fields, but there just simply has to be a better option than Adrian.

You know what? I have family that work as small business owners, and it can be very hard right now, so I think this is just a devil you know situation. Okay. Interesting. Even if the devil you know, as we learned in this episode just crashed Dave's wedding, was not invited. And infamously, I was going to say famously, but infamously in season one was like, would you like to come to my girlfriend's abortion. That was one of the more unique invites. I had ever heard of. I don't know what the like RSD,

the digital RSVP card looks like for that. And I don't want to find out. No. No. Yeah. He must be really good at all the stuff that goes on inside that building that we don't see. It's probably as simple as that. Like, he is, look, we know he's a self-starter. He turned himself into vigilante.

Yep. He is like a self-made hero slash agent of chaos. he's inventive. That's right. Yes. That's how you'd spin all of that into the resume bullet points for him. Yeah. Hard worker.

Very devoted to his craft. Very, very. Loyal. There when you need him at a moment's notice. All things I'd like in the workforce. Willing to like fight through bodily burns. Right. You're not going to slow him down.

Overcomes adversity routinely. So yeah, maybe. Okay. So he's just killing it. He's killing it in Fennell Fields. Exactly. They leave all that off screen. He doesn't need to rise and grind and put it on Instagram. He doesn't need to show you all that stuff. He's got it like that. Oh, man. The idea of Vigilante's Instagram is really something. What do you think his, like, social media platform of choices? Do you think he's big on TikTok? No, he feels like a reply guy to me. Like big reply guy energy. But like burners? Or his own account? No, he's like his main account. Like he operates it like. Yeah.

Like boomers who don't understand that everyone can see this. Also, like his texting style, he's not afraid like double text, triple text, triple text does not matter. The limit does not exist. There's no cap. There's no cap. No cap. It doesn't matter how long it's been since you've replied. Also, he is going to respond to every text you do send with a tap back.

Yes. All of them. And tap back and then still a reply after. Like he's never going to leave you wondering, never going to leave you on red. You don't have to worry about that. He's always going to say, I love you last. I think he's the best. He is wonderful.

He's just a great character. It's a great performance. Oh, it's beautiful. All right, let's talk about peacemaker. I just want to spend just a second here before we get to the alternate dimension. You've seen a version of your life that is distinct from your own of it all. And talk about another difference between seasons, which is the peacemaker of season one. Was he perfect?

No. Was he flawed? Yes. However, I would describe him as a great pet dad. Cared about Eagley. Ooh, yeah. It was like, guys, just go crinkle a bag of chips, was appalled to see the state that his dad had left Eagley in,

wanted the hug, was distraught when Eagley, when injury befell him. And, you know, literally said at one point in season one, you can't house train an eagle, not without stealing its soul, right? He really got it. He really got it. I know that our guy Chris Smith is going through some stuff. However, I have some notes for him, and here they are.

When you say, I don't work for you, dude, to Eagley, you're wrong. You do work for him. Correct. When you say we need to start making clear who's the human and who's the eagle, no, you don't. He's both. He's the eagle and he's the human, and you're there to ensure that he is content. When Eagley tries to wake Chris up at the beginning, pecking at him in bed, first of all,

incredible cat energy from Eakley. I know most people would say that Eagley is a dog, not a cat, but this was real like Eakley as a cat. Stuff to me as a cat enthusiast, the like, I'm clawing at you until you get up to feed me. Just real cat stuff. Peacemaker in season one is like, what do you need, my guy?

Yep. You're cold. Let me knit you a sweater. You want to go into the quantum unfolding chamber. I will walk with you. I will walk under you and observe. I won't yell. I won't show any impatience. I won't call you a dummy.

misdirected anger in the face of his overall sense of inadequacy and lack of self-worth is all I can land on. It's all I can land on, but it's not an acceptable excuse. It's not much like my excuses for not seeing Superman. This will not suffice. I will say this is also one of those things where, remember, he was coming back after years in prison. He hadn't seen Eagley in a long time. There's that deep appreciation. And sometimes the apathy that can come with familiarity, it's like a good reminder that, you know, You got to keep the magic there in whatever way you can with your pet friend. As someone, I know you brought up the cat energy, but as someone that is now the stepdad to a five and a half year old pug, I've had some of these conversations with my guy. Oh, no.

He is a lovely young man, but to me it was the trip into the quantum locker room very much felt like, hey, we're just going to go into the backyard instead of taking the walk around the block to go to the bathroom. that I know you prefer. I know you have your spots. Terrible. But buddy, it's four in the morning, and I can't do this right now. Guess what? Yeah. Wake up and then take a fucking nap later.

No, listen, I should. I should be, me and peacemaker both have things to work on. When you're, what you're describing of like the apathy that can form over time, you got to work hard to keep the spark around. That's fine if you're talking about marriage. Fine. Okay. That's fine if it's a shitty person.

Yeah. What a pet? No. No. All right. Yeah. I know. Listen,

you're right. I've issued my feedback. I've issued my feedback. Feedback heard. I'm going to take this and work on myself. Please do. Hopefully you will be able to work on yourself before you show up for your interview with the justice gang. Because if not, you're going to hear about it.

Their microphone is broken. Very important. Now, Chris Smith's interview was short. I don't know how long the White Rabbit's interview was, but Maxwell Lord managing to mention the cameltoe 30 times in the span of that interview. Astonishing stuff. The tears made sense after that. Very painful to hear. It's tough.

Again, like that not something I have personal experience with much like the orgies, but trying to, you know, trying to have empathy for everyone's situation. That's tough. That's a tough scene. So this crew, we met them all in Superman. Now, obviously, like, these are characters, people. We did. We all did. We all met them in Superman.

Every one of us. All of us met them in Superman. on. Maxwell Lord, of course, we've had in our life in plenty of other DC properties. Who can forget Pedro Pascal playing Maxwell Lord in the very memorable film Wonder Woman 1984. Sean Gunn is here playing Maxwell Lord. And he is here as Lord Tech funding the justice gang, the recruiting, right? We hear like the West Coast has been awash. Great stuff. Guy Gardner, Green Lantern, and Hawk Girl are here. So they're founding members of the Justice Gang, their heroes,

they're recruiting to build out the team. One of the like throughline jokes in Superman, I feel that this is not a major spoiler so I can say it, is just like, is Justice Gang a good name? And Guy Gardner's very attached and everyone else is like this is like pretty dumb. But I guess the name stuck because here we are. Apparently. Here we are.

Peacemaker on the drive over adds real pal. gives him a lift. And he's kind of like, I'm, I know how this is going to go. Like, I'm worried because these metahumans are always dickheads. And he's just like sharing some samples of things he's heard from them before. I think my favorite was, hey, why'd you take a vow to be a doucheback? Great stuff. And Otabio gives him a pep talk. And we can feel that she means this, right? She says, you're a superhero now. You saved the fucking world. And of course, this is like, the heart of it. This is the thrust of where we find our guy in season two and where we find all of these characters who like all did this remarkable thing and have all kind of like either gotten

a lack of appreciation and praise and like improvement in circumstance or actively found themselves taking a step back because somebody else is trying to thwart them. Nobody seems to give a shit that peacemaker and the 11th Street kids saved the world. And so in a moment where he is like finally. I always wanted to do this. I always wanted to do good things. And I also, because I'm a person and I can be honest about it, always wanted everybody to then say, great job. We love you. Great job. We think you're the best. And that's not happening. And so he feels less sure than ever and more ostracized than ever. And the pull then, of course, of like glimpsing a world where that's not true. Like he says to Otabio, I don't want to be a joke anymore. He's about to see a world, at least

from what we've glimpsed inside this episode, where he's not a joke, where there's a beautiful trophy case full of reminders of his achievements, where every newspaper article about him and the top trio is about how they saved the world and everybody's grateful. This Chris Smith is showing up to crank toys to have the people on the other end of the broken mic say, this guy sucks, and he just has to sit there and be like, am I supposed to be able to hear you? That's where he is, and that's brutal. It is. And the really interesting part from here on out is, I mean, clearly the whole thesis of this series is it can go a lot of ways now. And we're about to see all those ways that it can go. But like being confronted with that can either be aspirational of, okay, I know what's possible

if I just keep going or look how it should have gone. And it hasn't now. Why am I still doing this? and the choice he makes after literally killing himself in the middle of this quantum hallway is going to be a really interesting one on that front. But yeah, it's brutal. And like, honestly, like a lot of this, like I know the whole thing is a very like heavy-handed commentary on, you know, American exceptionalism and all of these different tropes that he represents. But so much of this episode felt like what we often hear from members of the armed forces

who come home and feel lost, who feel abandoned, who feel unappreciated by people back here who weren't going through that, who weren't with them in the midst of all that, the way this group was with each other and in different ways have to try and work through that. So it was just that part of it was very striking and his in particular of, I've done this great thing for all of you. Right. And that still has not gotten me any of the, like, I've done the work on myself. I've made all this progress and it's still like,

and this is kind of him in a lot of ways. It's, hey, I've done all this work on me. I am dealing with the literal demons, my father haunting me and all this stuff. But I am still judging myself by all these outside forces and outside markers of success. So clearly there's, I mean, we see with all of them, there's a lot of work left to be done.

But for him especially, who we feel like has probably come the furthest among this group, obviously, still falling short. short in certain areas. It's a great observation and I think it's like interesting to think then about what he shares in this scene with people he has no trust in who are openly mocking him without realizing he can, but like without any care for him, right? And he still, because the introspection has been that sincere, that deep, the desire to improve and be a better person that earnest, like he says things to them that are really true about trying not only to find his place in the world,

but trying to assess his own behavior and his own choices and figure out not only his place in the world, but how he feels about himself, right? Like when he was saying, you know, they basically are like ridiculing him. Everything they say is just like dripping with vitriol, it's withering, like,

okay, well, like, you know, all these people you murdered? Like the good reasons? Like the bad reasons, right? And what he says in response was just so sincere, you know, like, I have really come to realize that, like, my dad imposed this culture of violence and that I have been defined by this traumatic, horrible thing that happened to me as a kid. It's, like, real, like, Chris Smith is in therapy energy throughout this entire sequence. And, you know, the thing that he said specifically about, like, I don't want to be ruled by my past experiences in anger. pair all of these different strands. Well, like, of course you're going to want to walk through that door then, right? Like, how could you not? If the thing that you're running from or you're trying to learn from, whatever the exact relationship to it is, is something that feels every day like an anchor you can't escape. It's like, well, I tried. I thought about this. I learned a lesson. I tried to be better. Nobody liked me anyway. Well, what was that for? Right?

And so, like, what is the next thing you can do? You can try to just, like, literally leave your past behind. Like, how could that not be a temptation? And I thought, to the, like, larger context in this scene, there's the Rick Flagg senior, like, watching Sphere News. Great stuff on the commentary front. And then in this sequence, Maxwell Lord mentions, like, the growing swelling distrust around

metahumans and certainly peacemaker feels very at the center of like how people to your point view what you do for them or what you do for yourself or what you do at all. And so like this feels obviously like it's going to be a core aspect of the text of this season and maybe even

part, because this was present in Superman too, like maybe even part of the text of chapter one the gods and monsters like what do people think about the heroes around them? Yes. You know? And like how do you devote your life to this if the thing you need is validation

from the people you do it for and that doesn't come? Like where does that leave you? I think that's one of my favorite things that this genre that we talk about going all the way back to like the boys Invincible has a lot of this built into the text where it's like, hey, we're going to show you the perspective of the world around you.

Like the most recent season, there was that open that was completely silent showing everything that had like one of the most moving sequences of television I've watched this entire last year. But with all of them, it's, and with peacemaker, it's him feeling internally and saying it there, like saying, I have changed. I feel like I've done all this stuff. And then being presented with, well, we have a mountain of evidence of what you've done. Like trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets. And you've had the bucket kicked over for a long time. And so feeling like, oh, no, I've done the work. It should be different now.

You should look at me different now. It kind of ignores the, hey, there needs to be, and this will be the interesting kind of intersection we talked about before. Is he willing to keep doing this before that validation shows up? Because it seems like that's going to be a long time coming. Yeah, it's like the idea of a shortcut to that satisfaction is like, who wouldn't, who would be strong enough to resist that? I think it seems like it's going to be something this season is interested in examining.

Something else this season is interested in examining is, just dicks and tits everywhere. So many dicks and tits. I have to say, I've seen many an orgy on HBO. I've never been like a sadonished by one though until this. So the Ring of Earth's crew was at Comic-Con, and we went to the peacemaker panel, and they were referencing something in episode one

in a like, we can't believe we got away with it way. And I was like, what could this be? Like, what could this possibly be? It never occurred to me that it would be an orgy. You mentioned the boys a couple times here's where I'd like to begin. How did this compare to hero-gasm? I felt like this one maybe didn't floor me exactly the same way as hero-gazm. It was still impressive in its variety and truly like,

you were going to fully be in all of it, but I would probably still give hero-gasm the edge in terms of like how it just instantly like blew my mind. Right. So floorgy, when you say floored you, you mean like with a surging rush of jizz when you open the door, just like knocks you on to the floor. An impossible amount of jizz. Coded in jizz. All right, here's my hot take. You ready for this? This was better and more shocking than hero-gazom.

Here's why. Interesting. It's all about expectations. Hero-gasm was like, guys, we're doing hero-gazm. this season and everybody who's read the comic's nose and oh my god you're going to see things dicks the size of pythons that you've never seen before and like it was fine i thought it was this is like for my i don't know what is wrong with me this feels like how i talked about blood and cheese where like the entire viewing public and who watches house of the dragon was so

scandalized and i was like this was kind of tame compared to the book like hero gasm i was like i guess like it feels like we really talked it up because this came out of nowhere sure did we see specific things that were as explicit and as shocking as in heroism? Maybe not. But the fact that this was just completely out of nowhere and in a DC comics property, I was just like, my MVP is a guy in the background of multiple shots who was just like feverishly jacking off. Really committed to his craft. That was the one like after the fact when I was. the fact when I was thankfully on my personal computer, Googling famous television orgies.

I did it on my phone. Yeah, not on my work computer. Just really like dicey territory walking through the minefield. But that was the one still I saw was that dude in the background. And just his laser focus,

the angles of it all, really committed to the craft. Like just gold star work for that guy. really amazing stuff. I also like the, because most people in this scene are naked. A couple people are in like a leopard speedos. And I actually feel like that that probably was like really challenging when everyone else around you is just completely naked. So shout out to them. This was astonishing stuff. Also incredible was when peacemaker was making his way to the quantum unfolding chamber so he goes through the kitchen and like one dude is sitting there like

naked having a sandwich and then two people are just fucking next to him. Great stuff. Where does this rank for you? Like, does this crack your HBO orgy Mount Rushmore? It's a crowded field. We have seen a lot of orgies on HBO over the years. So, all right, let's list the HBO orgies of note. I feel like we're surely going to miss something. Sure.

But, like, what just popped into your mind right away because you think about it often and or was something that you rediscovered while Googling it? not on your work computer. The leftovers is a famous one, certainly. Leftover is very high on the list. That's a very notable and famous one. I would throw out, like, there are a couple actually in House of the Dragon,

but I would specifically throw out Damon taking Renera to the bows of the pleasure den. Because not only is everybody around them having sex throughout this entire scene, it's heightened by the, like, very thrown specific. creep factor of an uncle has taken his knees into the setting. So that's high on the list. True detective. I was going to say that was one that instantly came to mind for me.

There's a true blood orgy, right? Yeah. That's right. Westworld orgy. Yeah. Yeah. It's again, it's a crowded field. I feel like there must be something from Rome that I'm forgetting. There are a lot of naked people in Rome all the time. Huh. Yeah. Do you remember the first on green orgy you ever saw. What a great question. Hmm. I don't. It just feels like I never had a life

before watching orgies on HBO. It just feels inextricable from the experience of being alive. Mine wasn't on HBO and it wasn't nearly, like it wasn't nearly this graphic for obvious reason, but one of the first times I saw an orgy even hinted at in film was in Zoolander. Oh yeah, sure.

It's possible that that was mine too, actually. Yeah. That to me is like when I think of that like I think that's a great one. There was soil everywhere like that like all of and like again representing a lot of different groups in various stages of clothing from various backgrounds. It was it was a real United Nations orgy. As they all should be. As they should be. As they should be.

We want everyone to feel welcome. Yeah. Listen, I did ask James Gunn an orgy related question. So stay tuned. I felt a journalistic responsibility. Stay tuned. Honestly, a valuable public service you have done on all of our behalf. Thank you for your courage.

Thank you. I also asked multiple members of the cast about the orgy. We'll see when those snippets air at some point. So I just couldn't. I had like seven minutes with everyone. And I was like, this feels like the most important thing. I mean, I have a feeling they wanted to talk. Like, who is not, who is a part of that episode not going to want to talk about the orgy?

I mean, I think everybody is very proud. Very proud. And they should be. There also aren't a lot of settings where you get to say orgy or bring up an or, like it just doesn't happen very often. It's pretty much like, yeah, prestige television and podcasting about prestige television. Yeah. It's kind of it. It is.

It's a limited, it's a limited lane. It's possible that people who are not like, yeah, like Friday at 6 p.m sounds like a great time to do a pod would have a different answer. That is a, that maybe they're hearing about orgies in different contexts. But for us. Honestly, like again, to that like very like sheepish sheltered nature in a different view of the world, like going all the way back to the cocaine that leads our peacemaker to this orgy where he's just like, hey, I'm going to go back with what I know, this place that I feel safe and the loving arms of whoever wants to come and give me a little kissy on the side of the face. Yeah. Yep. I remember I was at a party not too long ago.

Like I have never done drugs to that nature. I'm not even good with marijuana. Like I just, I don't do it. I'm, that's just not my lane. and there were people that were doing cocaine at this party, and I saw the plate it was on. And before I saw them do it, my fat ass was just like, oh, did someone like, were there cookies here before?

Are these crumbs? Like, if no, if I hadn't seen... Like powdered donut? If I had not seen that, there was a non-zero chance that I would have gone over and, like, just like licked the tray thinking it was powder, like powdered sugar. So, I mean, that would have been terrible had that happened to you. However, it would.

would have been fascinating to basically live for one night Greg's life from Succession. True. Remember when they made him do all the go? One of my favorite moments from Succession was like, I hope you don't die. He wasn't supposed to do all of it, but he did. He did. Wow. Okay.

Let's talk about the alternate dimension. I like this redeployment of something from season one that was like a little bit incidental. You have the quantum unfolding chamber. We get the great moment with Vigilante and Peacemaker where Vigilante is like, your dad's like pretty brainy for a racist, huh? Like, wow, how'd the white dragon invent all of this? And are you familiar with Dark Matter? Have you read the Blake Crouchbook or seen the Apple TV Plus show?

I have not. Okay. So when the show was coming out, I was excited about the trailer and the cast, my wife, Jennifer Connolly, and decided to trade the book. And I was like, that's pretty interesting. I won't spoil any of the specific things that will happen. I think this is more premise than plot. This is like basically dark matter.

The idea of like you have these access points into other versions of your life and is there one that you covet? Or does somebody covet yours? Like another version of you covet your life. Oh, okay. So interesting premise. I'm really curious like how many of these doors they go through. And one of the things that was fascinating to me just about the kind of setup is that all

peacemaker and his family know about all those other doors. doors. But our peacemaker doesn't. Like the fact that they had that exchange when they were hanging out about the imp and did he jizzed my chirias. And it's like when you were eight doors down, it's like, so they're just out there exploring the doors to other dimensions? And our Chris Smith walks in and his tidy whiteies and is like, what the fuck is this? Like obviously he knows to some extent because the aliens coming out. But do you think that he's explore, like, has he gone through any of those doors? Or is he just like, okay, you can come out. But I've never been tempted to go in? Or did you

Read it more is just like a version of his life that is this similar to his. He had not confronted. Like the fact that when Eagley is banging on the door and kind of calls him over initially, and this is before the six-month time jump in his return, he sees the rack of helmets. Right. And I thought this was a great production touch where like little tiny things are different, right? It's like the bulbous like accent pods. whatever the fuck those are called on the outside of the helmet are just like smaller and more contained.

And for this peacemaker, obviously we'll see his dove of peace is right side up instead of upside down. He has a sick jet pack, though that kind of backfired. But Peacemaker walks over and he sees that rack of helmets and he's like, what the fuck? Like he did not know this was there. Yep. I wondered if it was a volume problem. Yeah, he just never explored to this depth. Well, and again, the one other thing is because the only other window were given

into what's behind those doors was the alien at first. And so my first thought was, okay, not every door leads to a like direct. A similar reality. Or even just to peacemaker's vantage point of that reality. Like it's different realities, but it's not all through the lens of him. Like the idea that this is a closet full of rooms that just lead to peacemaker's house in that universe, as opposed to that one door is where the alien comes out of. Or, okay, so that's one possibility.

Or that alien is Chris Smith. Oh, wow. And like that's a universe where like everybody looks like that. Like that there's nobody who like he's humanoid but he's not walking around with John Cina's face. Like that's him. Could be. So what's the what's the space cat in that? I hope that's not his version of Eagley there.

I mean, that wouldn't be hard. That's unthinkable. I can't even contemplate that. Based on what we've seen from season one to season two where he's already getting a little pissy with him. Maybe no. I can't even allow. No. I refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

That's so exciting. Maybe it's eager prey. Oh, where he's bringing him. Yeah. Could be. And he's putting it in the incinerator to then bring him like ash to sprinkle on his rodents. I actually think that's probably it. Let's go with that.

Which gives me, you're right, that is Chris Smith alien. So that makes sense. Would that mean then if we extended that logic that the imps are also like versions of Chris and Augie and Keith? Oh, which means we're going to. get imp eagley. That would be cool. Well, like, I didn't see an eagle in alt peacemakers. Ooh.

I didn't see an eagle with him when he was fighting himself. All right. So alternate Chris Smith's not always eagley tangent. I mean, in some ways, that would make me really sad. Like, I hope that we eventually see an eagley everywhere because eagle should be everywhere. But on the other hand, there would be something that felt like, oh, that heightened how special this eagle was and their bond was. So interesting. I'm open. I'm open-minded about that. This is another Superman tie, but just like the tie to the Lex Luthor pocket dimension tech from Superman, which I won't spoil for you, but it is a huge part of the movie.

There's that exchange where Bordeaux is like similar to what we picked up this summer in Metropolis. And Flagg says the Luther incident. And then he kind of uses that as cover. Like he's like, we can't have another like interdimensional rift. So like we better go after this guy. And he obviously wants to do that for personal reasons. but this larger, like, threat of the incursion of dimensions into each other. I'm curious to see, like, if that actually functions similarly or not, or if that even matters. But clearly, Gunn is interested in playing with dimensions, universes, different realities, etc. And that is a rich text to mine, no question.

I loved how quickly we could see that his life was, quote, unquote, better. Like, I assume we'll mine that further and parse it and interrogated and that there will be other things that are not better. But the second he walks in, he's just like, look at this beautiful home, right? This gorgeous library, these rich woods, fancy bottles of booze, trophies everywhere, and just instantly you know there's success here, right? Like this peacemaker is achieving something every day that other people are recognizing. That's a thing he covets. Okay. Then his dad in pajamas shows up in the hallway. He's like, yeah. look like you're seeing a ghost. Now, of course, as you already noted, he had been seeing his

father's ghost, but even just the way that he says, like, pal, you okay, pal? It's his tone, it's the language choice. It is immediately, we're there for like 30 seconds. We'll go back later. But initially, that's all the time we need to understand this Augie's alive. This Augie loves his kid. They have a relationship with each other. We're seeing the top trio clipping. So before we have Keith arrive on the driveway, you're like, wait, who's that going to be? I started to get a little, like, tingle in my spine. They kept that all.

I, that was a surprise to me watching the premiere. Like, I had not seen that leaked or spoiled or anything who David Dedman was playing. So that was very satisfying and cool. And then, of course, when Chris is in, like, the depths of his despair after the justice gang interview and walking through the orgy, six months of passing, he's like, I got to go through again, actively seeks it out. After he initially kind of panicked, sees his dad runs. Yep.

Walks through the door again, right out to the driveway. truck arrives, who is it? It's his brother. He's alive. That was, and that was one going all the way back then when we see him in costume in the dance number at the beginning. You're like, oh, my God, of course. Like, that's who it was going to be. And I heard them talking about this on the podcast after the show. Like, John Cena's reactions throughout all of that were, I mean, again, to try and put

ourselves in a situation that's impossible to comprehend, like, really wears that in a way that was incredible. I love that little nugget from Gone in the, after the episode about how the little earlobe, like, Nuzzle and Love You Bud was just Robert Patrick, like, deciding to do that. It's incredible touch. I thought that was great. The look on Jon Zina's face on peacemaker's face when he realizes that his brother is alive in this alternate dimension.

So it's like, it's everything, right? Keith in this world is not dead. which means not only is he not dead, Peacemaker didn't kill him. Like, there's the overall fact of it he's here, but also that direct tie to that guilt and that shame and that horror, this defining incident in his life. Also, directly related to that,

his father loves him and, I mean, was apparently not a monster and not a dick to him, at least based on what we've seen through one episode. We learned from the exchange with Keith and then seeing the photo in the bedroom that he and Harcourt were together. I want to come back to something on theory corner front there in a minute. And also that as a superhero, he's not a joke. So all of the things that he's lamenting about his current circumstance, nobody respects me. This person I'm in love with doesn't want to be with me. I'm basically defined by this thing I did when I was a kid that I didn't mean to do and the horrors and atrocities inflicted on me by my father. None of those appear to be issues for all peacemaker. Now, grass is always greener. Seems great. The pull of it is apparent. We don't know. what that peacemaker was missing.

Like, does that peacemaker have the kinds of friendships with the 11th Street kids that our peacemaker has? Does he have that bond with Eagley that our peacemaker has? We don't know the answers to that yet. My assumption is that that will be part of the journey of this season. Like, you think that this other version of you had it made, but, like, you have to learn to appreciate the things that you actually have. I feel like that's what this will be about.

But I don't know. This is just such an interesting place to put this character. And like, I think this is kind of always an interesting thing to do in a story. Again, like, you have Loki and he's like, okay, I'm going to fall in love with a version of myself with Loki and we get that great, like, seismic narcissist line. Yep. The only person who you would be attracted to and think was, like, worthy of you is you. Perfect.

With Peacemaker, like this darker version of it, like, okay, I've killed my brother. I've killed my dad. Now I've killed an alternate version of me. And on the one hand, that means I bested the quote unquote better. version of me. He was kicking my ass, but I beat him. But then, like, the dark place that takes you to. I said I wanted to interrogate my relationship with violence. Look what just happened. You're living a shattered life and thinking every day about how the ruptures in your family anchored you down. Well, you just did that to that family. You didn't mean to, but you did,

and that's true. And I have to assume that's something he's going to have to confront. So this is, like, a really heavy but I think rich thematic text to parse and a character who was constantly like, how am I defined by the things I've done and how could I be at a better place? Like, what a perfect, what a perfect spot to put him in. Yeah. And it was so interesting. Like, he has to feel cursed by the violence. Like, I cannot run from this. It is so innately a part of me. And it was so interesting going back and watching it a second time how we actually get in the first shot, the first time he goes to let Eagley out and fly, you see the spike that he eventually kills other

peacemaker with Observent guy. He noticed you activate the jetpack by tapping the dove of piece and boom. That's why you can't say activate zero gravity. You can't do it. This stuff's very perceptive.

So he understands and is aware of that. But no, I think that's good. You talked about like, because that was the one thing is I kept waiting and again, it was sort of a good slow build. Like the other shoe is going to drop in that reality eventually.

And you saw, like, even the little things, like, when he's leaving it, obviously, like, the guy's got a chance to tell his brother he loves him after years after he's dead. And to hear, I love you from a father who is, we know definitively, has never said that to him. The only thing he's ever, Augie in our reality, ever told Chris in our reality was, I never loved you. Your brother, yeah, you hated you from the moment you were born, should have thrown you out. Like, what would him? He sits there in a daze on the receiving end of something that he never thought was possible, and now he gets to experience. Yep. But on the other side, it's, all right, like, I'm fascinated to find out more about what that peacemaker looks like that just grew up getting hugs. What an awesome, you know, nature versus

nurture thing in general. But also to your point, like the first thing we see is they are decorated, they are adulated, they are loved by this public in a way that gives him that validation that he's been looking for. But what can also be the effect of that hero worship? Like, again, clearly dealing with a broken marriage on that side. He has a bust of his own head in his bedroom, maybe a little bit of an ego on that peacemaker. Exactly. Again, to your point, like those little relationships, the lack of an eagle is incredibly noteworthy in that regard. Like, is this someone who can go out here and see who wouldn't be?

Like, if that peacemaker is in the room with everyone in season one after Mern goes down and they say, who's going to lead this, here's no question. It's me. It has to be me. He would never give the deference. to someone else and recognize that they are capable, maybe outside of this trio. But to me, that'll be the interesting part is, all right, what's the effect of that fame monster

that he's always wanted on the other side that's learned? Yeah, like when you get to see what it looks like to have received the validation you crave, are you actually better, better as a result of that? Now, to have the love of your brother and your father is a meaningful thing. To have been with Harcourt, we've X, so lost that, but to have been with her is a thing we know,

he would take seriously and would prize. But, like, does the fact that they have a beautiful mansion actually mean he's content in his life? Like, we don't know. We'll find out. And I like the idea that, like, our Chris Smith could, the journey he could be on is that, like, he doesn't actually need. I mean, it would be great if people took seriously, like, the things that he sacrificed on their behalf, but that he doesn't need a bunch of strangers to tell him he's worth it. it's vigilante.

It's economist. It's autobiot. It's hardcore. Like, it's the people around him. It's this found family. That's a, I think,

like, that would be just a very guardian's, like, place for this to go. And, you know, I think that would be really cool to see. And, like,

it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other, right? Maybe whatever happened over there will teach him something about being with hardcore that he can apply. But I don't know.

It's like, Okay. You don't like your dad's house. You didn't like your trailer. There were expired olives in the fridge because you were in prison. It doesn't seem like any of that is a thing for this other guy. But like, does he have a group of people who have a nickname they landed on because they like the same song? Like, did anything that authentic happen? We have no idea. So I can't wait to find out, truly. No, it's going to be amazing. I'm going to throw a theory at you. Do it. I would like to be clear. I genuinely do not know if this is the case. Sure. I'm serious. Totally. No, I don't.

Have not watched Beyond episode two, have no idea. But I was really struck by this. I paused every round and listened to this a couple times. When Keith is talking to Chris about the X and he says, here's what he says, I know she's like, I think you blew it. You should try again. He says, I know she's with that jar head and all. Okay, here's my theory. Who's the jarhead?

Obviously it's going to be. You don't say that if that's not someone. it's going to be Rick Flagg Jr. That is my theory. Because how crazy and amazing would that be? If hardcore, I mean, it feels like Chris has to confront literally that ghost. It just feels like he has to. And if that person who he is carrying all this guilt around with is in a relationship with the person he loves,

what a twisted web. What happens if Flagg Senior at some point in the process of surveilling or pursuing peacemaker becomes aware of these other realities and the fact that his son is alive in other realities? Maybe he's not alive in those realities. Who knows? But if he is, like, what will that do to everyone? I feel like there's a really, the fact that we got a like return of a dead character in another world in this episode makes me feel like that's something we're going to see again. with a different character. I buy that for a lot of reasons,

but it's a really nice foil into what we got already, which is, you're right, return of the dead character, but an extremely positive light in a way that's easy to receive. Oh, my dad is back and he loves me. Oh, my brother's here, and I get to explore this relationship

and tell him what I've missed for so long. What if it's a torment? Yes. What if it's just a reminder of the thing you took out of the world? A reminder of the thing you took out of the world, but also if he's with the person that you want to be with, now you've got an adversarial relationship.

You want this thing and this guy you have deep regrets over and who has haunted you now is back and is just haunting you in a different way. And you've got to grapple with that now. I feel like this should happen and would be great. 100%. I'm all in. I will invest. It has to happen.

I really hope it happens. It has to. Okay. We are now going to hear from James Gunn about the temptation of alternate dimension. orgies, eagles, and DC hero insults. Good to be here, Mallory. So, James, one of my favorite things about multiversal storytelling is the opportunity that it affords to have characters confront other versions of themselves. Yeah.

Plot-wise, obviously, this is a treasure trove, but what were you most interested in teasing out thematically by presenting alternate versions of a life not lived? And why did Peacemaker feel like such a rich character through whom to explore those questions? Well, I think that we're reaching a point in Christopher Smith's life where he really has been humbled and is facing these demons within himself. And I think that one of the things he has to face is almost they aren't the literal demons, but they're the literal faces of his demons, which is, you know, the life that didn't exist. that the things that he lost, what are the roots of this trauma

that have ruled over all of his choices in life and this strange, disturbing, pretzologic way that he's become peacemaker because of the loss of his brother, because of the loss of the one person that truly loved him and the one person he truly loved, and now facing what would life be if that wasn't the case.

And along with having a father who gives him love, who is the opposite of who his father was in this universe. Yeah. I love that. I have to ask you about Eagley. And the secret to creating these majestic, indelible animal creations, Rocket, Icon, Sebastian, I would say, underrated, underrated legend, crypto. Underrated legends, Sebastian, correct.

Crypto, current frontrunner for Best Supporting Actor for the Academy Awards, as far as I'm concerned. I hope, I know. Dare to Dream. And, you know, hero of the moment, who the Eagley did once make multiple grown adults at the Ringer podcast network weep on mic and on air while discussing a bowing tug. So my question to you is like, how do you consistently find such creative stimulations in these characters? And what is it about exploring that bond between a magical creature and a person that is so interesting to you? I mean, I'll say a couple of things.

I mean, number one, I think that I love all of my characters in this. way but for the viewer it's easier to love an animal than to love anything else i mean there's something innocent and um about animals that we we love them automatically especially if we're animal lovers like you seem to be and i definitely am and so i think that it just gives us uh it's safe to love an animal it's unsafe to love a human so getting someone to love an animal is much easier than getting to love a human that has nothing to do with any gift i have that just has to do with the nature of us as human beings. I think simultaneous to that, however, you know, the secret of, say, crypto and

Eagley is we're not anthropomorphizing them. I think the minute we start making them do, I mean, yes, there's some magical aspects to Eagley, but even the eagle hug is based on a real thing where this guy came and saw his, you know, bird of prey that he had saved and it hugged him. So it's not completely out of, you know, the realm of possibility. But I think that people tend to create these CG animals and make them do things or understand humans in a way that animals can't. And what the thing I'm always doing with my VFX artists and with the sound design and everything is to pull all of that back. If a dog won't do it, crypto's not going to do it.

He's a dog. He's not smart. His IQ is two. You know what I mean? He is just 100% my dog, Ozu. There's nothing about him that's special other than the fact that he can fly and tear up an airplane in his mouth. So I think it's really about just keeping, for those two characters in particular, keeping them as real as possible.

He's special to me. You mentioned loving humans, and so I would like to now transition in a way that perhaps can only happen in a peacemaker interview from asking you about an eagle to asking you about an orgy. What does an invitation to a peacemaker orgy look like? Is this going out via paperless post? Is it a group text? Is it going on a dark web message board? How is Chris extending this offer?

I think he's offering it to a couple of people and things get out of hand. I think that, you know, although, you know, we talk a lot about how peacemaker is, you know, not taken seriously by, you know, the superhero, metahuman community. I think the truth is he is like famous in a sort of local band member way where he does have all these hangers on. And that's who those people are. They're all part of this sort of hedonistic community within the city of Evergreen. Incredible. And yeah, you know.

You mentioned the other heroes. I have one more moment here with you. So my last question I think has to be, as we show, shift from the DCU to the DCU and just ever so slightly recontextualized the canon between seasons one and two. Yeah. Which of the instantly fabled character assassinations that Peacemaker issued against other more famous and consequential heroes?

Yes. Hold in the new canon. What is still true? Batman's a pussy. Superman has a poop fetish. Aquaman fucks fish. What's still true in season two? Well, okay.

Now, first of all, none of the new. of those things are true. True to peacemaker. True to the spirit and true in the spirit of the show. Aquaman, no. Yeah. Superman, yes. Batman, yes. Those are, I think those are things that he actually thinks about Batman and Superman. Great. I think we're all prepared for season two now. Thank you. Thank you, Mallory. Okay, we did it. Anything else? Anything else about this premiere? Anything that you have on your mind when you're thinking about where the rest of the season is going to go? No, I think. now I'm just really excited to see because in addition to that call, which I think is a prediction

that I think absolutely happens. It's a theory I buy into. I am also really invested in alien Chris Smith and thus alien eagerly because I do think these are the droppings that he has brought back to him that were being burned out there in the quantum realm. So that to me now is the payoff that I believe we're going to get. Great. But yeah, that one stuck out. That'll be what I take away from our first interaction together. We'll have to reunite.

We will. If that happens, if we learn definitively that that sweet little space cat was in some way connected to Eagley's meal plan, we'll have to talk about it. It's a must. We'll talk about that and Superman, because I've seen it by then. So you say. So you say, Mike Golick, Jr., what an absolute joy and thrill this was. genuinely had a blast. I had a ton of fun.

10 out of 10 would absolutely drive across LA on a Friday afternoon to do this again without fail. Tell the people once more where they can find you. Yes. Monday through Friday, Fandual Sports Network, 3 to 5 Eastern, Golick and Golick. As you kindly mentioned off top, the Echoes podcast with Jessica Smetana every Tuesday during the rest of this year, covering all manner of Notre Dame athletics, football heavy in the fall. and I will be a part of TNT's coverage of the Big 12 that you can check out all year. Myself, J.B. Long on play-by-play, Allie LaForce and Coywire on the sideline, as well as the great studio crew there.

Adam Left Coat to Keo Spikes, Champ Bailey, Victor Cruz. Very much looking forward to that if you are in a Big 12 college town and have food recommendations, please send them to me so that I can eat it and document it along the way. So I think that covers everything. Fantastic stuff. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for James Gunn for joining us virtually today for a few minutes.

And thank you, of course, to our wonderful crew, our 11th Street Kids, Carlos Chiraboga and John Richter for producing this episode, Arjuna Ramga Powell, for his additional production supervision and all three of them for being here late on a Friday. And to Joe Mia Deneron for his work on the social. We will see you next week. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th,

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