House of R - ‘Percy Jackson and the Olympians’ Season Finale Deep Dive

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

The Gods are among us as Joanna and Mal return to dive deep into the season finale of 'Percy Jackson and the Olympians (08:10). They take an extended look at the season's final episode and break down all of the significant story elements of the show (15:41). Later, they talk about book spoilers to see what may happen next in a potential Season 2 (02:03:42). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And together we host the Big Picture, the ringers film podcast for new releases, career retrospectives, director interviews, movie drafts, top fives, and so much more. Twice a week, we break down the latest releases,

argue about whether movies are doomed, and debate our modern film canon. Listen to The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals, with Fandul Predict. predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus.

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I don't know when Hades will really. Turner. He can be difficult when he wants to make a point. Do you dream? Aris said God's don't dream. Ares is a moron. Perhaps you noticed. Of course we dream. What do you ask? Do you ever dream about mom? Coming to you live from, not live, on a tape delay, from a basement somewhere on the East Coast and an office somewhere in California. It's me, Adriana Robinson, joining me today. Ah, my dearest companion, I would go to Hades, with her. I would go to Olympus with her. I would go to camp with her. It's Molly Rubin. Hi, Mallory. How you doing? Joanna, just for clarity, how sure are we? You could just explain everything in an email. Should I just email this pod to our listeners instead of going on a big old

quest about it? This is not going to be an email-length discussion of the Percy Jackson finale. You know us. It's House of our. We're here for the long haul. We're going to hear talk about episode eight of Percy Jackson before we get into that and I'm so excited to do that because we loved this finale, Mal and I did. Before we get into all that. Program reminders,

I'm going to break protocol and start with our own program reminder for a very good reason because next week, we're doing two pods next week and our first pot of the week to recording on Tuesday is a mailbag episode.

So that means you have until Tuesday, early morning, I would say, but preferably by Monday night. To get in some, yeah. Yeah. Let's go with mid-afternoon Monday. Okay. By lunchtime Monday to send us questions, comments, concerns, concerns, prompts. Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com.

Mallory, any suggestions, suggested topics for people? Anything. Hit us up about Percy. Hit us up about anything that we talked about on the hype draft that you're excited. to hear us talk about in 2004. Avatar is around the band, three body problems around the bend. You've seen a house of the dragon trailer

in the last few months. Like, there's so much stuff coming. Ask us anything you want. We'll decide what to answer, but ask us anything you want. It's all on the table. People are still sending their emails with their pickles,

and I love that for us. We get emails that are just like dill and honey crisp XOXO. Wonderful. So, yeah. Any prompt. do you want, send it on over. That's what we're doing next week.

Over on the Ringerverse, our pals are doing, the Midnight Boys are doing Black Heroes of Fandom Draft Volume 3, which if you've heard any of their other Black Heroes of Fandom Drafts, you know is a must listen. Earlier this week, they did a Midnight Meter TV edition, 12 inductees. Molly, I would like to check in with you on a current controversy in our shared list. ship, which is that even though my cherished favorite, both the vampire slayer made it in, thank you so much to Stephen Van. I know you're the reasons why. Mallory, how do you feel about loss not making the cut in this episode? We're here today to talk about Greek tragedies. Here's

another one. Yeah, there you go. I agree. Also, over the reverse button mash is doing, covering Suicide Squad and Halo also, both. And I believe Charles is going to be on that episode along with Jess and Ben. So good stuff happening over in the Ring ofverse everywhere, here, there, all across the Ringer podcast's Mallory Rubin. Yeah. How could people possibly keep track of all of that? Because you're doing rewatchables.

I'm doing the watch. We're all over the place. We're just here and there, zigging and zagging. How can people know where to find us? Follow the pods. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and follow any of those other wonderful podcasts that Joe just mentioned, Ringerverse. Trial by content, prestige TV, rewatchables,

the watch all of them, big pick. On Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And then while you're at it, follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Twitter. We are on Instagram. We are on TikTok. And, of course, I mean, we always say it.

It's particularly true over the next few days because as Joe just noted, we're doing a mailbag episode, so we need to hear from you. But if you miss that midday, late afternoon, who knows, like, what does a solstice even mean kind of deadline?

Keep the emails coming. You can always email us at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The other part of a reminder announcement that I will make is that I tease this on the pod we did earlier this week

where I had a great chat with Percy Jackson writer, Daphne Olive, if you haven't listened. Wonderful. Daphne is fantastic. Voice like Buda, brilliant thoughts on fate, etc.

And I tease that we were going to do a tropes course episode, and we don't often like to commit far in advance. And then I just realized it's actually next week. So fellowships and golden trios is the topic at hand. So if you want to email us your thoughts on that, we actually already got a really, really fascinating one. You guys are the best, honestly. I love you so much.

But Golden Trio's, three character pairings, and or fellowships, We'll see how far we brought in the definition. But that is also in the cards for next week. So Hobbits and Dragons at g-bill.com has never been more relevant ever in our lives. Here we go. Episode 8. The prophecy comes true. Speaking of tropes.

Written by Craig Silverstein, who's an EP on the show and sort of like very high up sort of in the command chain is my understanding of Craig's role. And then directed by Jet Wilkinson. And Jet is kind of a badass. did some episodes of the Old Man, a show that these creators also created and a show that Mallory and I both really enjoy, as well as some Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Warrior Nunn, and a couple of the previous episodes this season. The visual flares in this episode, particularly when it comes to the final Luke and Percy interaction, I just, I love this show, and it's a very volume-based show, and that's just the fact of, Disney Plus programming and the concept of locations like Olympus and the underworld. But the one direction I would love to see it push in in season two is like slightly more visual flair to go with the great writing.

And this is like a great step in that direction as far as I'm concerned. So yeah. All right. So we're talking about episode eight. We're going to talk just about this season and the first book is sort of all of that stuff is on the table for us discussed today. We're going to get into some deeper series book spoiler points. as we always have with these Percy episodes at the end. But we will issue a warning before we dive into that.

So there will be no spoilers. There's vague like you'll see this character again mentions, perhaps, but no substantial spoilers of the future of any of these characters in the main body of this episode. But we will address it at the end. Let's go now to the opening snapshot. Quick thoughts on this episode, this finale. I can go first.

I loved it. I thought it was phenomenal. Molly and I talked about how we knew all the things that they had to do to get to the end of the book in this episode. And we were like, is it going to feel rushed? Is it going to feel jam-packed? I don't think so. I don't think there was anything I felt really got a short shrift. Maybe like one tiny note that I will talk about later.

But other than that, I feel like we really had the right amount of time with every segment. Good action. Fantastic character beats. Great additions to the Lord. adaptive changes that I really, really loved, especially when it comes to Poseidon in this episode and Luke in this episode, I think they really, really crushed those two things. Molly Rubin, season one finale. How are you feeling?

I had a fantastic time. I just loved this finale, and I loved this season. And as we talked about in our very first episode, and as we teased in pods earlier in the summer, in the falls. We were getting ready for this. Like, we dipped it to the books for the first time this year, getting ready for the show. This is like our first experience in the world.

And it's kind of amazing to me, like how quickly, I mean, I guess it's not amazing to me because we've heard for so long from so many people who we admire and trust, like, this is a story that you guys would love. So it's actually tracks completely. But going through the books for the first time, like watching this beautiful adaptation,

it's just rocketing. the ranks of my favorite worlds to spend time inside of. Like, I already can't wait to go back to the beginning of the series, both to rewatch the season of TV, to go back and read the books again. And that's just, like, the best feeling in the world when you find characters who you want to spend time with and, like, a universe, a fictional universe that you love to visit and that you want to explore in full. I thought the finale was beautiful. I, like, I was, I'm always nervous heading into a Disney Plus finale always. Correct.

Lamentably, those anxieties are often proven right by what we get. Not always, certainly, but often. And I agree with you. I thought that this was like a really well-paced finale. I also had a character to a moment or two where I would have loved a little bit more. But there was nothing that felt abandoned or absent in full. there were like some questions, of course. They always are.

But broadly, I thought that the emotional beats were expert. The Poseid and Percy scene is, you have to like nail a scene like that. And it was one of the best scenes of the entire season. I just thought it was exceptional. I also really thought the look reveal was strong. I'm excited to talk about all of that. Our time with Zeus, it was incredible. So I, the.

The things that they needed to get right, absolutely, they did. And the season overall, I think that the adaptive changes that they made, like I think broadly, we talked about this a lot in our pod last week on episodes five, six, and seven. I'm fascinated to keep tracking the changes that they make, what they move up, what they tweak more substantially, why. It just feels like the story is in the hands of a number of people who love it and want to treat it with the tenderness and care and devotion that all of the other people who have grown attached to it over time deserve. So that's a really cool place to be. I can't wait for season two.

This is something that Daphne was saying that I found really fascinating in the conversation, which was that it wasn't just, you know, the people working on the show who were coming into the universe and were excited to play in there. It was Rick Ryarden himself, who was really excited to have sort of a second swing at this story. And to pull, you see this, I think, in this episode, the most with the Luke character, pull a storyline forward so that the characterization makes sense for the full arc of the character. I think something I thought was so interesting that Daphne said was that not only were, you know, the various writers on the show excited to play in this world,

but Rick Ryderd himself was really excited for the opportunity to pull forward. to pull forward into this first installment, some characterizations or storylines or nuances that will pay off further down the line that maybe of plots that he didn't twist and turns of the plot he didn't know he was going to take when he wrote book one. So it's sort of like, if I were to write book one again, this is what I would want in there

so that later when things happen, it all feels of a piece and all feels like very smoothly planned out. That was so interesting to hear Daphne chat about. I loved that insight. It makes complete sense. And I love that she paired it with. I think this comes up a lot at our universe, you know, through the George R. Martin, like,

is George ever going to finish the book's lens of like what happens when you don't plot out everything in advance? And George likes to talk to about a gardener who's always tending and seeing, right? And I love the Daphne made the point because I do think, I think sometimes it's an interesting and valid thing for people to ask about and critique it. think about, like, how does your story evolve if you don't know what you're working toward? But I love that she said, like, why would it be a bad thing for creators to assess in real time how their story is going to, like, live and breathe and adapt? And so for this, this to be an extension of that, because, of course, that also applies to when you're writing it or crafting it in real time. But then the idea of, like, getting to revisit it and think about where you did end up.

And like if you, I mean, how much of it did Rick know to the T from the jump and how much of it did he find out, figure out and settle on in real time? Like he gets to look at it all again with fresh eyes and also think about the platform and like the people who are revisiting it with him and discovering it for the first time. That's really cool. It's like neat to have him. I loved hearing her talk to about like that Gardrell's idea. I thought that was fascinating and like that sweet spot of creative freedom for the show on team. Here's what's sacred. But like, here's what we can reshape.

Yeah. Yeah. It was all fascinating. It's funny. We got an email about this that I don't have in front of me, so I apologize. They don't have the list of name, but it was about Harry Potter. It really made me laugh because they were talking about the, you know, upcoming HBO Max Harry Potter TV series. And it's like with the benefit of hindsight, not just like all the books are done now for Harry Potter, but we have the movie series to look at.

got, they're like maybe there are some adaptive changes they can make in this go, like giving Ginny Weasley a personality on the screen. And I was like, that's a fair dig at the movies. Not the books, but at the movies. So, um, made me laugh. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what It sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis.

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Let's not shilly shally. We begin with a very brilliant use of the television medium in that we are inside a voiceover and we're inside the voiceover of Luke, not Percy. And it is a really brilliant echo of Percy's opening voiceover in episode one, which when we discussed that we pointed out was like pretty close to what's on the page at the beginning of the book. But in episode one, Percy says, look, I didn't want to be a half-blood. Being a half-blood is dangerous. It's scary, blah, blah.

And here Luke in episode eight of the same season says, look, you didn't ask to be a half-blood. But you are one. That makes you part of something bigger than yourself, which is good, because you clearly can't handle this on your own. Nice little neg or two from Luke in this training montage that we get or scores that we get. We're going to come back to that Percy voiceover because it closes, this episode closes with a Percy voiceover that sort of beautifully tracks the changes in his character from that initial premiere voiceover to where he is with his half blood status here.

at the end of all things. But what was your reaction when we start inside Luke's head and we get that clear echo aligning the two characters? I thought this was a great choice. I was excited from the first second that we heard him and realized he was speaking, not only because of the parallel track in the echo, like it's always fun to think about when characters are foils.

What do they share in common? You know, when Chiron goes full Dumbledore at the end of the episode to say, All right, I'll have a debrief ferry after the battle and talk about how the Hogwarts. Excuse me, I mean, camp wasn't safe enough, et cetera, no safer place. That moment, yeah, no, then Hogwarts or the Winterfell Crips or Camp Afblood. That moment when he's like part of what Luke said made sense to you, didn't it? You know, like we have to see what Luke and Percy share.

And so there are a few different things I loved about it. We get the echoes. but also just to remind us of on the precipice of returning to that the friend who will betray you line of the Oracle's prophecy of the role that Luke has played in Percy's very brief life is a demigod, like knowing who he is. We talked so much about this in our premiere pod, how Luke was one of the figures who like made him feel welcome and. comfortable and gave him that sense of belonging. At the time, and in the second episode, we didn't get the sword training sequence that is such a fascinating one in the books, in part because it's lovely to see Luke exhibit this tutelage and help Percy find the thing he's good at and get his footing, get his bearings.

But also because, like, Percy beats him, he disarms him. And there's this great moment of, like, Luke appraising him and looking at him and we're trying to, like, read into what we're seeing. there and then you kind of reassess that later. So setting the tone at the beginning of the episode for Luke's return, like we talked about this with the IRIS message a few episodes ago, just keeping him present in the story so that the big reveal in the climax of the episode were not like, wait a minute, it's been like six episodes since we've seen this guy.

Like he's there with us in smart ways. And there's no better way to return him into our lives at the beginning of this episode than by showing us how Percy learned from him and relied upon him to teach him how to make his way through this new world. And I know, you know, I know a number of book readers were missing that sword training sequence at the beginning. Similar to how you and I felt when we're like, well, we're not going to get the fates. What are you kidding me?

And then they showed up, right? And so it's like, oh, we were saving it for the finale. And I think this is another genius stroke, similar to keeping Sally at the four throughout the season of like spreading the look around. So we're not just like front loaded with him. And then he's just not on the mission. And we get like one Zoom call with him. and that's it.

You know, like, you know, keep him, keep him at the four as we, as we head into this episode. Luke, according to, you know, the kids in the Hermes camp, Luke is the best swordsman in the last 300 years. And then, yes, Percy disarms him right away. There is this implication in that duel

that they're having there, the sparring that they're doing, is that Percy's using a practice sword as, you know, as they are in the, in the show version as well. And there's this implication that, like, if Percy had a real sword, he would have done even better against Luke.

And so it's like, this is something that he's like, printer nationally gifted at versus all, if we recall earlier, the montage of things that he was absolutely terrible at. Yeah. So, like, when he is able to hold his own against Ares, however briefly and however aided by seawater,

it's because this is something that he is quite good at, you know? Yes. He knows his way around a curl, scrunchy curl routine with his hair, and he knows how to sort fight. These are things Tracy Jackson can do. He does. I always love that Luke wiped the sweat off his brow. He appraised me with an entirely new interest description after he disarms. Oh, yeah.

Indeed. Percy was channeling me in every single math class I ever took in high school when he sparring with Luke and he goes, what am I ever going to use this stuff? That's definitely what I was always thinking when I learned geometry, etc. Strong same. When is this ever going to be helpful to me? Kids, if you're listening to your math homework, it's important, I swear.

But outside of the repost pronunciation debate, Luke is teaching him a really important lesson here, right, about rebelling against big systems, which is something that we're going to talk about again a little later on. a hallmark of Percy both on the page on the screen is that, you know, there's a reason he gets expelled a bunch of times. You know, there's a reason he's always in trouble at school. It's because he's impertinent, rebellious. That's his, that's his nature. But Luke is trying to teach him how to navigate these systems in order to rebel the most effectively, right? So he says,

Percy says, point is they don't fight fair. It's like they're, it's not like there are rules. And Luke says, of course there are rules. See, that's what warfare is, knowing the rules so you can use them against your opponent. What's an example? Percy Ax asks. And Luke says, there's all kinds of examples. And then there's a clever cut down the sword too. And then we're into the Arias fight.

We go down Luke's sword and then like up Percy's sword. And then we're into the, into the Arias fight, which is great. It reminded me, again, we're like only a few minutes into this. We've raised Harry Potter quite a few times. but I'm going to do it again. It reminds me of the conversations we've had, you and Jason had eternally, about the question of wand lore and Harry Potter,

where it's just like you need to know the rules in order to either break them or, you know, navigate these systems. And hopefully you've paid closer attention to the rules than the person you're fighting. And especially with someone like Ares or someone like Voldemort, someone who's so overpowered, they become arrogant and don't pay attention to the minutia. What do you think, Melix?

Exactly. Is it somebody who puts too much stock in the letter of the law and the rigidity of some sort of norm or binding, guiding agreement and principle? Is it somebody who believes themselves to be above the natural order or something that might escape their notice? like, oh, I don't know, children's story or an actual child. Like, this is just a wonderful. This is like a trope that I always love when it recurs because it is such a great way to differentiate the worthy hero who puts stock into these things and the opponent who can't be bothered or

who is guided by some sort of myopia. I get up this moment in the book when Aries is like, I've been fighting for eternity, kid. my strength is unlimited and I cannot die. What have you got? A smaller ego, I thought, but I said nothing. Just like kills me. Like, kills me. And Percy is, the thing is, I mean, we'll get to the Olympus arrival soon.

Like, Percy's got a little bit of an ego. You know, he talks to shit. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like he's the most modest, emigod who's ever lived. But still, there's a chasm because he approaches the confidence that the confidence encouraged that he builds he's earned, right? And he pairs that with humility and the intention of fighting for the people that he loves. And so that will always be a distinction. And especially because

of the arc he's on in this, in the show here, when we have this intentional call out from Annabeth a little later to the beginning of the season when Percy's like, we're just kids. What can we do? Right. And they're like, no, we're demigods. Are you kidding me? You know, and this is something that he's had to learn about himself to grow into that aspect of his life. And so that ego that he presents is, yeah, exactly, a hard one through many fights and many trials and tribulations and many escapades of different gods. So here we are. He escaped to Festus's chair. He's done all sorts of things. I mean, he didn't do that. Antibeth did that for them. But whatever. Okay. So in the book, Aries starts out this fight by conjuring a boar. And Percy dispatches the boar and is basically like

fight me yourself, bitch. I might be slightly paraphrasing, but something like that. I like that it's funny, you know, they save their CGI budget by not doing the Bore thing at all. There's a lot of things that they trimmed away to save the CGA budget. And I applaud them for that, honestly. I don't think you need it. But I love when he's like single combat when there's no indication that it's going to go any

other way is like a little odd. I mean, I guess it's like leave Van Beth and Grover out of it. I suppose. But the scoff that he gets, the scoffiest of scoffs that he gets from Adam Copeland here in the single combat demand is pretty incredible. I cannot tell you how amused I was in the, so there's a little making of Doc on Disney Plus, the hero's journey in the making of Percy Jackson and the Olympians. Fascinating and very charming to watch, I enjoyed it. The section on this is, because as we talked about last week, Adam Copeland is an actual, like, champion wrestler, right?

Uh-huh. And he was talking about, like, prepping with Walker and doing these stunts, and he's described him as, like, waving him around, like, a little bobblehead. I called him bobblehead. It just, like, killed me. I thought that was such a perfect way to describe the size disparity. That was just a really made me laugh. This is so funny.

Percy is just so tiny. This exchange, they have about dreams, which will obviously come back in that clip that we just heard from Poseidon at the top of this episode. It's an interesting way that it works in the books because here, once again, and we'll get it a couple more times in this episode, Detective Percy is on the case

and in front of 12 steps in front of everyone all the time. in the book, Ares himself slips up and says, I take orders from no one, I don't have dreams. And Percy's like, who's that anything about dreams, my guy?

I think he just gave that away. But he says, God's don't dream little man. That gives us at least that seed that sprouts into something so beautiful between Poseidon and Percy. What we do miss here in the TV version versus the book version

is there's this moment in the book where, you know, Percy's like, why don't you just keep it for yourself? Like, you have all the power. You have the master bold. Why wouldn't you just keep it for yourself? And Arias has this moment of like, yeah, why wouldn't I keep it for himself? And then it seems like almost he can hear Kronos's voice inside his head as he's waking. He almost has this like internal conversation.

And then he sort of transitions into, well, actually the play. is this, so don't worry about it. I don't know, that seemed key, this idea that Kronos could communicate directly to Aries via his head, or am I misinterpreting it? Did you interpret it differently? No, I'm with you. I think there's also the great,

really chilling description of Aries wants to kill Percy. Yes. And book and show, right? Like in the show, he's like, there's not going to be a funeral. You're a listen. No Tracy, that's a wrap. there in the book that not only is there like this clear depiction of a voice in Aries' head, a presence speaking to him,

something that is happening that is pulling him back, that is thwarting his intention to kill Percy, which I think is achieved in other ways in the show. But when we get that moment where like there's the other descriptions during the fight in the book where it's like Percy is describing just this feeling that falls over the air as Aries halts. And like when he's piecing together later that this is Kronos's hand controlling Aries and preventing him from killing him,

but there's this description of the way the air changes, this feeling of evil and cold and the like cessation of anything around you. And so like that is missing here a little bit. And I would say that that's, the most important thematic and plot and kind of like intense emotionality thing that's missing. I agree with you. We don't necessarily need like the bore charging.

But I would say over all the spectacle of the battle shrinking, you know, because we don't get like the spectators and the cop cars and the mortals seeing the swords as guns through the mist. The whole like this guy was their kidnapper and they're not actually fugitives. Like all of that's gone, which is fine. But I think one thing that it does is it makes, I will say it makes the battle with Aries feel a little smaller to me. Now, I don't totally mind that because we build toward Olympus, we build toward Luke.

It is kind of positioned as this like progression of intense interactions across the episode. And let's say this. It's a hell of a lot better than cutting this scene out of the movie completely, one of the most shocking things that has ever happened. What if we made a movie, what if we made a film adaptation of Percy Jackson and just didn't put any of the villains in the first movie?

What would you think of that? Only if we keep Medusa, but it's Uma Thurman in some sunglasses. Assigned! I hear what you're saying, and I disagree with it, because I would say that I love the way that this fight pans out because it's, you know, he was never going to win on strength, right? So it has to be on cunning and wit.

Yeah. There's this line in the book. But that's the case in both the book and the show, right? No, no, no, no. I know what you're saying. But like, so it doesn't have to me, that means to me it doesn't have to be a big physical battle. In fact, the quicker is over, the more likely that Percy has not broken some bones, you know. But to me that this isn't the big boss battle of the episode.

the big boss battle is with Zeus and it's a battle of words. Yes. You know? And so I don't mind it feeling like a step to your point on the way up to Olympus. That being said, in terms of blows struck, there is, of course, the slicing of the heel and the golden blood are spilling out. I think the heaviest blow, though, is when Ari says, say hi to your mommy for me. Brutal. Not nice.

Not great. And I should just say, I think this show, I think perhaps the show doesn't work at all if you don't cast someone as good as Walker Scobel in the role of Persia. I think he's, I think I say his last name incorrectly. Scobel. I think it's Scoble. He's so, he's been so good all season and he's so good in this episode. and there's just like a million different moments where you could just freeze the shot and look at the expression on his face.

So the rage, the like nostril-flaring, snorting rage when Ari says that about Sally Jackson. And then the look on his face when the wave is cresting over him and he says, I told you'd find out who I am. Who I am.

And there's like a little bit of, there's like that defiant strength, but also this like, sadness and vulnerability to it as well. It's a very complex emotional melange that he is trying to communicate in that moment. Yeah, I agree with you. I think he is exceptionally gifted

as a performer at this age. It's kind of incredible. It is a number of really moving moments in this episode. The look later when he sees Sally, even though we eventually realize it's a dream. It's like, to us, it's still him seeing her for the first time.

And it just, I think, dissolved. of us into puddles watching it. But like this moment, you know, we're calling back to the Aries parting in episode five, of course, right? You think you know who I am, but you don't. If you're, if you're not careful, you're going to find out. Okay, that's satisfying. It's those two characters we get a payoff there. But as is often in the case throughout the season, when the show is at its best, it's connecting so many characters so deftly in the span of a single sentence. So as you're observing, he is sparked into that moment of intense action because Sally was brought into it again,

because his mother and that pain and that loss and that driving grief and desire to be with her again and to see her return is really, truly his quest, even though now he's like, you know, we got this other quest. Let's like save the world. Let's avoid World War III. That's also an important quest, but like Sally's his quest, right? And when he's, the other thing I loved, so like, Sally's there. she's centered. Beautiful. When he's saying, I warned you if you're not careful, you'll find out who I am, he's the son of the sea god too. And like the wave is cresting and Poseidon told Sally and told us in episode seven one day, one day when he's ready, when he knows who he is and where he belongs and fate has revealed to him his true path on that day. I'll be right by his side. Now we're a few minutes

away from actually seeing him stand there, but he's there. That's his father. By his side in the form of that cresting wave. And so they're all there together in this, like, key moment for Percy as an active character. It was just wonderful. And like, you, you mentioned, and I agree completely, like, I love both in the book and in the show that Percy's resourcefulness is the key to his defeat, right? Like, how can I beat this hulking behemive? I have to outsmart him. And, like, I thought back to what Annabeth had said at the Denver Diner so long ago, Aries has strength. That's all he has. Even strength has to bow to wisdom sometimes. So Annabeth is there with him in that lesson. So it's not just that Percy has wisdom. And that's the thing he has that Aries doesn't. It's the person. All of those people, right? All of those people who have taught him something that he's holding on to and channeling in that moment. It's beautiful. So that I love. And Rover is also there, I guess. In the book, in the book version, Annabeth will give him her. necklace in a minute, and that is very important. In the book, he gives it, she gives it to him

right before this fight. And then, wait, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Grover, like, put a tin can in his pocket or something like that? He has these tokens of both Grover and Annabeth that he brings into that fight. I love when she gives him the necklace and says reconciliation, Athena and Poseidon together. Yeah, Athena and Poseidon together. And Grover's like, that's a really good snack if you're hungry later. Now it's protein rich. Tell us your, tell us your favorite canned to snack. on hobbits and dragons team at com. Yeah.

Sign it with your can. That's almost just as bad as I am. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I said with a can. Why don't you say things like this? What's wrong with me?

How do you think you would have reacted if you had been on the interview with Daphne and she said threesome like five times in a row? How do you think you would have responded? I was like chuckling, listening at home waiting for you to say speaking of that, of course you did. It was an absolute delight. Luke is also there because. As we, you know, as it's like very brilliantly set up in the show, Luke trained him, you know, for this moment. And in the book, Luke's advice to him is getting close when you've got the shorter blade, getting close.

And that's what Percy does. He knocks Arias on his ass at the way, but then he slides in close and nicks him in the heel. And I just like, I love that. This is also like, you know, Achilles heel. Wrestling heel. Yeah. Yeah. A wrestling heel.

Love it. Um, Mallory Rubin, I would now, you already mentioned, I think, what's probably the funniest line of the episode, which is Grover's email line, which you mentioned at top. But I would now like your real-time reaction to Adam Copeland's slow clap. And yay, that was so cool line delivery. How did you feel about that? I hope he wins an Emmy. That is honestly how I feel about Adam Copeland's performance as Aries. Honestly. I think I've, I've This is so funny to me. I can watch him forever. I just think he is hysterical. It's so good. Want to know what you really want an enemy for life. Bye.

We get some key info. This is also in the book of like, if you see a God in their true form, not great for you as a half-mortal person, probably. That being said, like a few mere moments later in the book, Percy's in front of Zeus and his like true form. And he's like, I felt a little tingle. And I'm like, oh, okay, is that like if I kept looking at him for a long time, it wouldn't be good for me. And I was like, okay. You mentioned a bunch of stuff that were missing, like the cops and the infar.

I wouldn't say I was missing it that much. But I hear you. Not the particulars. Yeah. I'm fine with this ultimately. Not really the particulars. I think I'm more like thinking about the scale and the speed of some of these big encounters. And like, I hope for season two, I mean, I'm sure they got a very healthy budget.

I hope they get an, like, I hope their budget grows. As it did with Thrones. Like, you know, if you think back to season one of Thrones, of course, like, Turing gets knocked out so that we can skip an entire battle sequence because they didn't have the budget for it, right? So like. Season two, Percy Jackson, Black. Blackwater, let's go. Yeah, exactly. Let's go.

And then build and build and build until the dragons will be bigger than anything you could ever imagine. That's my hope for the show. But yeah, I'm thinking of it in terms of like Throne Season 1 where they're like, we'll throw some money at you, but not all the money in the world yet. And then if the audience grows and grows, so two, shall the budget, hopefully. Here's my question for you. First a statement, which is that you and I both agree that it seems to be that

they're on a beach at Montauk because Sally's the house, the little beach house that they went to early in the season is right there. So in the book, they're spit back out on the beach in Santa Monica. And it's this whole discussion of how does Percy get back to New York when they're not allowed to fly, blah, blah, I think it's very smart for them to be like, let's just spit them out on the East Coast. They come back to a beach. It doesn't matter which coast the beach is on. Let's get them closer to New York. My question to you, though, is if you have just fought a massive hulking behemoth of a god you've somehow won you sliced him in the ankle all that happened and then you hear some your name spookily whispered on the wind do you malay rubin then go solo into that house uh chasten after spooky whispers is that something that you would do for me

i'm like i would like some nectar and ambrosia and a restorative nap uh-huh yeah that would say i would I would say I'm never following spooky whispers of my name on the wind. Never not once. You hate a crevice. You hate a spooky whisper of your name on the wind. But you love an ocean vista and this is a whisper near the ocean. No, no, no, no. What I would argue is that the house is essentially the crevice in that situation.

Yeah. You stay on the beach and you enjoy the ocean vista. You ignore the siren song of, well, I'm with you. into a house. I would say no. Of course, Percy thinks it might be Sally. Like, he thinks maybe I,

mom's in there. Nothing will keep him away. Yeah. I love, we love to discuss forms of exposition. I have to say, radio mysteriously on in the beach house is, is a new favorite of mine, where we get some insight into the fact that the war is on,

even though we don't see it really anywhere. We know what's happening, because there's earthquakes Poseidon is using to, you know, fuck up Zeus's domination in the sky. How did you feel about this little choice? I enjoyed getting this

detail. I love to learn how solar flares work. Me too. I live a lot. Always interesting. I mean, I was like, this is kind of fast. I'd make some notes on this. You know, and we didn't get in the show the again, we don't return to, we think we don't return back to the Santa Monica Beach.

But the state of Southern California after they leave the underworld, like because of Hades' 's raid, everything is different in that respect. And so giving us a little bit. But in the show, the difference is that speeding up at the timeline, missing the solstice deadline. So to learn that the war is underway and setting up what we get, not only Percy's decision to go, but then, of course, Poseidon's decision to surround. render, which we'll talk about what the magnitude of that is in a few minutes.

Good little way here to show us the state of play. I love, I mean, first of all, as we said throughout, Megan Malali, just incredible as Electo. I think she's like extra incredible in this. I don't know. I just think she just made a meal out of every single word that she got. I also love that we don't have to see her in her harpy form, that we get her in her human form. Agreed. Again.

Strong agree. Yeah. Just looks better. And the beautiful silver hair, I feel like I'm like a couple months away from that. I have so much gray hair now. I can't be far away. So that gave me a lot. I'm like, this can work.

That's absolutely not true. But in 20 years, if you want to rock this look, I support you. Thanks. A bunch of people have just seen you at live shows. They know that you've got a glossy head full of brunette hair. I see no, I see no gray over the – none of there's anything wrong with gray. By the way, a friend of mine went full.

silver in her early 20s. And she looked great. And when that happened, I was just sort of like, listen, it doesn't matter. I love that Percy is like, tell a lady's, I expect him to do the same. And then he goes, please. Great.

Sweet little boy. But we get this, to your point, since we are past the solstice, we're about to talk about two different ways that manifests in important character choices for Percy and for his father Poseidon. But it also gives us gives us different stakes of the quest in this moment because we miss the solstice,

but Electo implies, like, if you don't stop the war, it doesn't matter if you save Sally Jackson. She won't have a world to come home to. So the quest is still on. The deadline passing, and this is something that's sort of Daphne, I can't remember if she said it during our taped conversation or off the air, when she was talking to me about the past deadline question. She said, the answer is going to be based in character decisions of the finale. She's like, you know, I don't know whether or not you guys will feel like, you know, it fulfilled the prompt, but it was made to give us different choices for these characters. So this is where it manifests for Percy, which is the deadline is past. Annabeth's like, what is the point of going?

Are you kidding me? The deadline's over. He's going to kill you, you know? and he says, I'm done running from monsters. This is too important. I have to try. Right? So it's like he's walking into something much scarier than the state of play that he was walking to in the book.

Does this, I mean, we love any change that gives a character that much more active choice, a character choice. Not just yada, yada, this is the next step in the quest. that was foretold for me, but like, exactly, yeah. I'm going to do this anyway. Exactly. Because I have a thing to say to Zeus. For me, I would say the payoff for Poseidon is perhaps even more interesting.

Agreed. But this is an interesting Percy moment. How does this feel in terms of his character journey for you? I'm in exactly the same place, I think. I, because of the import that we put and that Percy Jackson, canonically in this show, in this story, puts on choice inside of a world driven by the idea of fate and destiny and the path that someone sets you on. Some guiding hand sets you on. The fact that the quest is like, quote unquote, over and Percy still decides to do it makes it all the more meaningful because he's not letting these, honestly, I mean, not arbitrary in the fact that I guess, yeah, like the war started.

The deadline was real in that sense. But like, why should that mean that you give up, right? Why show you shrug your shoulders? You say I'm not going to attempt to tell anybody what happened or why. Like, of course, Percy is a character who would make this decision to go anyway. It gave me such strong Harry vibes. Like, there are a lot of parallels. We've been talking about it all season, but this idea in particular,

because that one of the moments from the books that I think really crystallizes how Harry approaches his decisions and, like, which lessons have worked their way into him. It was important. Dumbledore had said to fight and fight again and keep fighting. For only then could evil be kept at beta, never quite eradicated. Like, that idea is so crucial. It's not necessarily that you think you are going to win,

or even that you can. It's like, what would it mean to give up, right? And so I love that Percy's in that position. I'm also with you that the Poseidon surrender moment, I was just like, yes. Like that really did it for me. I do think some people are still like, why did the deadline move?

This seems odd, but it worked for me. And I think, yeah, definitely, right? People definitely are still confused about it. I think getting the double payoff for both of them was very satisfying. I also just, we are a little light on Grover and Annabeth in the finale for my liking. That is my kind of big finale note. Especially Grover, especially Grover, yeah. And so honestly, I found myself like any Grover moment just clinging to, like, it was the sustenance of life itself.

And so just a little thing in this conversation setting up where he's like, like, Percy's like, I need to get Sus's attention. Grover's like, Percy, you don't want Zeus's attention. It's like, I love the little dynamic between them. I thought that was great. My note on that level, my note would be, so we have the moment where, and. Annabeth gives her necklace to Percy. And I don't, I went back and watched the sequence where we saw her sort of talking about her dad and playing with the necklace. But I don't think it's, was it explicitly said ever in the show that that's her dad's ring on there?

Maybe implied. It's not in that episode because I searched the transcript for the episode and stuff like that. So it's not in that episode, but like, so this necklace has not only her camp half blood beads, but her dad's ring. So it's this very important thing that she has given to. Percy. And, you know, again, Walker gives us like an iconic, giving an iconic face in this, like, very sweet moment. In the book, Percy says my face felt a little warm, but I managed to smile when Annabeth puts the necklace on him. Walker sort of evokes that by, like, just keeping his eyes on her the whole time and she's like in close proximity. It's very sweet. My note, though, I would love even more resistance and fear from Annabeth. If she's thinking about Thalia in this moment, if she's thinking about what happened to the last forbidden kid that she was close to.

And she says, like, Zeus will kill you. And then she just seems like kind of resigned and going with it and is like, okay, I would have loved more fight from her and this, more terror from Leah, like, just more. because I agree with the Annabeth gets a very few moments in this finale, and this is a real moment for her to really take us into her emotional truth, you know? This is a great callout, and I think the other thing it would have done, in addition to further bolstering this already really great scene, is give us a lot heading into her sudden invisibility had appearance in the Luke scene,

which I was not a huge fan of, though I think is a fascinating choice for some reasons we'll talk about later. But to remind us of her history, Luke's history, these kids' history with loss and disappointment and abandonment would have been a good thing to reestablish before she witnesses Luke's big speech about how the gods let us down. I think that would have been smart. Yeah, great call. But how sure are you? We couldn't just explain all of that in an email, Joe. The response to that. This is my favorite line of the season.

This is, this killed me. Killed me. This meeting could have been an email is something that you and I surely have thought a million times in any given. Never my meetings with you, Mallory. Never, of course. Meetings with other people, of course. Never are Zooms, but other Zooms. This was so good.

Percy asks, where's the glory in that? And I was like, I was interested in that because we've heard Glory a couple times brought up specifically from Annabath, I would say, in the show. But I was curious sort of in the book. And Luke. And Luke. Well, yeah. But I was curious in the book, like, how much is this idea of glory brought up? And so I like pull, I have both the paper version and the digital version.

I pulled up the digital version and did one of our favorite tricks. It was like, I'm just going to word search one word. Yeah. We did this a lot with Rings of Power in Tolkien. I was like, I'm going to word search glory in this book and see. how often it comes up. And it's literally twice. And so not often at all. And one of the times is Luke saying in that final confrontation with Percy in the book, where's the glory in repeating what others have done? So it's once again connective tissue between Percy and Luke. And this idea of

glory for Luke is, for Percy in this moment, is leaning towards the God part of demigod for him, because I don't know that Sally Jackson's son cares at all about glory. Sally Jackson's son cares about standing up for what's right and pushing back on, you know, systems that are incorrect and all that sort of stuff that we love about Percy. But the pursuit of glory, that feels like Poseid, you know, and I think that's an interesting moment for him here. Yeah, for sure.

I was thinking back to those Luke scenes in the second episode where he's like explaining the pursuit of glory. and the idea of glory and the way that it makes your name bigger and this weight that you start to carry and how, like, of course, it would be a normal and natural and, like, exciting thing to crave that, but then also, like, you know, certainly not the last time we're going to mention Jedi in this episode,

but, like, something that can start to pull you and tempt you in a different direction, especially if that temptation is amplified by some sort of personal lamentation. or longing and like an emotional pull. So I think like Percy has this quality to him of like leaning in in certain moments to the thing that he is seeking

or like how cool it is to be in this world that I love those little moments. But yeah, it was kind of, it was a fascinating. I liked that it like put us on our back foot a little bit for a second actually. Yeah, yeah. Fortune and Glory, Kit. This episode is Brow,

to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and company coffee creamers. Howdy take your coffee, piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip,

try two good and company creamers. They're made with farm fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. All right, let's go to Olympus. Before we go there, let's talk about this other, the second Luke flashback that we get.

Steve, my pal, will you play as a clip? The gods are all powerful. But they have to play by the rules. Yes. And they create demigods so we can break the rules for them. Yes. But if we can break rules and they can't, shouldn't they be just as afraid of us as we are of them? What?

Nothing. You're learning fast. We have to be really careful with this. What do you mean? Annabeth is terrified of spiders. Okay. She's a lot bigger than they are. So what do you think happens when she comes across one?

Two things you never want to be are small and scary at the same time. Things that are small and scary get squished. I haven't yet to mention the score. in this finale. I meant to mention it when the wave crests behind person he says, who I am,

there's this, like, heroic held bassoon note that I just like, top of your game, bear all the time on the show. Other than thinking about,

of course, Ron Wiesley, being terrified of Spires, no. What were you, what were you thinking about in this exchange? I, so I love,

I loved a lot of different aspects of this. the Luke invoking Anabeth, right? We're reminded again of their history, of the affection that they have for each other, giving us these little, like, there's a part of me that thinks this is like

kind of like a little book Easter egg for book readers because the spider thing comes into play. But it is this lesson and insight beyond that. I think Luke's wisdom, you know, we think of Anabeth as a wise character. but like to me other than nailing the Poseidon and Sally moments of the episode, the single most important thing to get right in the finale was that what Luke says has to make sense, right?

It has to compel you as the listener at home. It has to compel Percy. And so like everything he's saying here, like things that are small and scary get squished. You're like you find yourself nodding your head along in real time and you're like Luke is a character who sees something. Clearly. Now, maybe that has been warped and manipulated and weaponized and his torment has led him astray. Like, those are not mutually exclusive things, but there's an aspect of it that kind of like pulls you in, right? You're almost like getting sucked in by the current of the water like Percy would buy a wave that he was choosing to ride.

And this like constant through line of the season in the first book of the gods using and misusing the demigods is another really important. to hammer, yeah, especially like we're finally here. We're at, I'm not here for the door. I'm here to see Zeus and I don't have an appointment. The chutzpah on Perseus Jackson. Like, this was just a hilarious way to enter the Empire State Building. I always love that moment in the book, Joe, where he's like, I wasn't much into fantasy when he sees the Empire State Building guy, like, holding a fantasy book with a wizard on it.

But when he's facing Aries, fine. finally, right, in the book, Ari says, you're not the only hero in the world who can run errands. Like that idea that the gods think of their kids as Aaron boys,

you know, and like how galling that would be. We'll hit some more of Luke's particular laments when we get to the wonderful forest sequence later. But like,

we're setting the stage with a lot of the key things that they need to, like, get back at the forefront of our mind here. So I thought this was very effective. Yeah. It's tremendous. Something that Charlie Bushnell who plays, Luke, said in, I believe, is on the seaweed brain podcast where he was talking. I know. It's a great name. And I think they listened to this show, so shout out to them.

But they, in that interview, he mentioned Anakin, which we will bring up for sure. later when we talk about the Luke and Percy confrontation, he also brought up Kilmonger, right? So this idea of the villain who has a point, anos Kilmonger, whoever you prefer. But just sort of like, everything Kilmonger says, you're like, yeah, man, yeah,

ooh, but not like that. Not like that, you know? And that's sort of the Tichala versus Kilmonger, this sort of like, there before the grace go I, you know, like there before the grace go eye, like, if just a few things are different

in Tachala's life, he could easily have gone down. the path of killmonger and that's the argument we're making here for um percy and a key difference between percy and luke again we'll talk about us a little bit more at the end but you know a lot of has to do with what happens with their moms and again once again sally jackson is so key to putting percy on a different path um and which is why is so important that the show made even more of a meal of that character than the the book even did um all right we're on olympus In the book, there's a lot of stuff going on in Olympus.

It's not just like one long path straight to Zeus. But we sort of skip past all of that. And again, probably for budgetary reasons, I'm not that mad of it because I, too, am impatience to get to Lance Reddick, so I'm okay with it. I'm going to read to you now the description of Zeus as we did with the other gods in our previous episode. This is the description of Zeus as Percy season for the first time on Olympus. Zeus, the Lord of Gods, were a dark blue pinstripe suit. He sat on a simple throne of solid platinum.

He had a well-trimmed beard, marbled gray and black like a storm cloud. His face was proud and handsome and grim. His eyes rainy gray. I feel like we nailed this 10 of 10 down to the pinstripe on Lance Reddick. I mean, it doesn't have a beard, but like the whole demeanor, the imposing, imperious, just innate authority of this person. and the innate dignity and all of that is just, I mean, perfect casting. Obviously, you know, as I was already reeling from all the emotions this episode, the closing card of the episode dedicating it to Lance Reddick who passed away after I filmed

this. So we don't know, you know, how they're going to handle Zeus going forward. But this is just some of the best casting that ever has been. And what a gift for us to have. this sort of final performance from a tremendous performer. But yeah. And then to counterbalance that, just a reminder that Poseidon in the book is sitting right next to Zeus wearing a Tommy Bahamas shirt with like paris and coconuts on it.

So that's not here. He's still dressed in that beautiful ice blue button now, which we'll get to in a minute. But in the book, it's Zeus in the pinstripe and Poseidon party dad, I guess. I love it. It is Tommy Bahamas shirt. And I think his chair is like bed decked with like nets and see. It's very on the nose. How did you feel seeing Lance Redic here?

How did you feel about this sort of, you know, first introduction to Zeus? Yeah, I mean, I loved it. He's just such a wonderful performer. He's been in so many of our favorite shows and films and like somebody we've adored watching for years on end now. And so it was like a beautiful gift to get. get this sequence with him and get to enjoy this and cherish it. And also, as you said, just deeply painful. I'm sure that everyone who was watching this,

who has an attachment to Lance Redick and his work was like in mourning anew. I thought he was sensational as Zeus. Like, you are with him for an instant, just the way that he starts to walk and march toward Percy from his throne before he even speaks. He's just oozing this. might and this command. And then when he does speak,

I thought the particular intonation that he chose for Zeus was riveting. I could have, and I could, I mean, every second that we got was precious, but I could have listened to him talk for hours on end and not tired of it. You failed. Yes, I did, but I had to come.

Right away, we're just in it with the two of them. I loved when he's like, did you think we were going to negotiate? Percy said, I thought you might listen. Like these are not characters who were on equal footing, right? Percy is a demigod. Percy has been in this world for mere moments. And Zeus is the king of the Olympians and has a mastery over the entire circumstance that Percy and everyone in their world is concerned with.

You can feel that in every iota of the frame, and yet Percy never backs down. So the fact that Zeus is filling every inch of that frame, and Percy goes from the kind of fear that we feel initially to, like, not retreating, not receding is such a winning thing to witness. This is the fight, you know, and I think, and once again, he is so outmatched, you know, Lance Redick is an imposing figure not as imposing necessarily as Adam Copeland, a professional wrestler. He's imposing, and then just sort of like, so when he is sort of sneering at Percy, saying, you think you're bringing me in your information, I know who Kronos says, I'm his son. You know, I know where he is. I put him there. But when he says, that is what we do. We snap and plot and strive. I loved that. That's not in the book. That's in the show. It's incredible writing. 10-10, no notes. And then when he goes, boy, and you hear the a massive thunder crash. I mean, just wonderful, wonderful stuff. No notes on this at all. I see, that is what we do.

We snap and plot and strive was so good, not only in the moment, but because it really follows through on the promise of this season-long emphasis on this deeply fucked up family. And, you know, there's this interesting balance of distinctions and updates from the books because the way that Zeus and Poseidon

receive the chronos news in the book and are sort of like, Zeus is just like, the matter's closed. Not really ready to talk about this. Not really ready to think. Like, we're not having this conversation. Certainly not in the way that you want to. The way that Zeus says here, like, well, you're like, of course he'd try to come back.

And that indictment of their entire connected, twisted unit, Like, how can we not think back to Percy in Annabeth in episode five? And Percy saying my mom told me these stories all the time. I remember this. She said, what? She said, this is what the gods are like to each other. This is the kind of family they are. Why didn't you want to say that just now?

She was trying to keep me away from you guys. And of course, he, you know, eventually embraces that good part because of Annabeth's help, the idea that she was trying to prepare him. But to have to confront, you know, Aries in the book, like, that's the best kind of war, the bloodiest, like a war between family. There's an aspect of relish almost for some of the Olympians rather than despair that they would be fighting each other. And so for Percy to bring this, not for all of them, but for some of them. And so for Percy to bring this perspective of like, and of course it will build toward him like citing Ares' is betrayal by name, this idea that they don't support you because they love you, they obey because they're afraid, which is ultimately what caused.

is Zeus to snap. Like, even Zeus, that's a hard thing for him to hear. And I love how they all have, like, a thing that's going to make them snap. Like, Luke snaps when Percy says, I met your dad. That sends Luke right over the edge, right? To go back to that snap line, and then I want to play that clip, which you just sort of half-quoted, but, like, this is the thing about elevated writing is when, someone comes up with a line, that is what we do, we snap and plot and strive. If you said we plot and strive, you're like, sure. We snap and plot and strive. It's just a word that's not often used

like, you know, like it evokes like what? Snapping turtles, but like, you know, what is it? What is, who thought to put snap in that sentence? And it reminds me of like, a doctor who line. I told you I was enamored of like, who frowned me this face? And you're like, what does that, what does that mean? I know what it means, but what does it mean? We snap and plot and strive. Like, it's just, um, these are the, like, absolutely, when someone just has complete mastery of their craft. And then also knows where to build in the silences, which we'll talk about when we get to Poseidon, but like, um, the writing on the show is phenomenal. Okay. Um, it is great. Let's hear that

confrontation between Percy and Zeus. Steve, please. He wants you both weakened. I will not be weakened by my brothers. You already are. Your family is a mess. They don't support you because they love you.

They obey because they're afraid. Aries, your son. He turned on you the moment someone stronger showed up. Do you really think he'll be the last? No afraid. of you do you think they'll be when your dad shows up looking to put you back in your place? That was the excruciating electric sizzle of the master bolt being activated and then halted. What I love, okay, okay, great, great moment for Percy, stupid and also admirable, both at the same time.

What I love for us is we're sitting in there and we're waiting for Poseid to show up. and we don't see what has halted the bolt, but we know. Percy's crouched down, and we don't see right away what it is that has stopped the bolt, but we 100% know that it is Poseidon and this is the moment of his arrival. And again, that's so much more powerful than he's just lounging there in the chair. And no offense to Rick, who is a master storyteller. But just from a visual point of view, it's just much more dramatic and powerful than like he's just sitting there on a chair waiting. I think also practically they could not have done that probably once they were at war with each other.

And they're just like hanging out in their thrones, having a chat. Wonderful point. Wonderful point well made. But it also makes me think of what Daphne was saying about why we haven't seen Athena yet, even though they talk about her a lot. Which is just like her arrival needs to be such an impactful moment. And so you can see, you know, Hephaestus in and you can seed Hermes in in a way that. that feels less consequential, but Athena needs to have this kind of, because she's Anna Bess's mother, she's have this kind of moment for her arrival. She can't just be whistling to Muzac in an elevator on the way up to the top of the Empire State Building. So like, when she does show up, as played by whoever we decide should play Athena, it's going to be something like this, where it's just like the drama is off the charts.

One thing, this is just something I want to mention to you, but I feel like we need much more time to talk about it, but it was something that sort of was on my mind as I was rewatching this episode. Is this idea of like Percy versus a system, a family, sure, but like a pantheon, a system. And Percy as a rebel and all of that sort of stuff. It just made me think of like that is such a hallmark of the modern fantasy hero in a way that I don't think it was even just like, you know, pre Star Wars, I would say. Because I don't even think you could say like Paul O'Chryde's and Dune is this. It's a hero up against an unjust unyielding system, whether it's like Harry versus like, I don't know, pure blood ministry, whatever you want to say, Lyra versus the authority in the Golden Compass. Ned Stark versus Kingslanding politics. Catnest versus Panem. Assook versus the Jedi Council or Percy versus the Pantheon.

This is like the rebel hero, the system that is in need of challenging is like such a strain through our modern fantasy storytelling. That again, if you go back to like Frodo is not a rebel, you know what I mean? Like our heroes used to be dragon players. I don't say rebellions are built on hope. That wasn't Frodo. was not Proto So is this

like a Star Wars originating thing concept or is or is it just matching the time you know like from an

American-centric point of view the sort of like post-Vietnam war protest sort of mentality or you know what the case is

but I think that's just something worth perhaps thinking more about the future but you know as we compare Percy to Harry

I mean there's just so many I see a lot of catnice and I see a lot of these other characters in him as well. Absolutely. I love that. All right. Talk to me about Poseidon's entrance here and how you feel about it. Marrude.

I thought this was, and I mean this sincerely, not hyperbologically, a perfect scene. Like there are things that are missing from the book that I love. And we'll talk about what some of them are after we discuss the scene because I think they're beautiful and so like we'll mention them for a minute but this was a perfect scene and it was perfectly constructed and perfectly performed the fact that when Poseidon arrives to stop that bolt before Zeus goes away and he turns around and looks at Percy at last he spends an entire sequence in conversation with Zeus with his brother and does that not once look over his shoulder, does not take a little gander in a little glance. It is the

exact same thing that we just watched between Poseidon and Sally when they could not turn to look at each other at the end of episode seven. And we talked then, and you and Daphne had a beautiful continuation of that conversation in your interview about the almost like unbearable romance of that between Sally and Poseidon. We can feel their like desperate longing for each other. And I loved the idea of giving us the same framing in obviously a very different way. This is a father and a son. And this father cannot bear.

He's not, this is it. This is the moment he's been talking about. Here it is. At his side. And to turn around and like lock eyes with him at last, this is the thing that he has been building for and hoping for, but also kind of dreading because of what it means,

because of what it will bring and what it will bring for both of them, for their world. And so, like, you feel that turmoil and, like, the need, but also the fear. I just, it's like what the show is able to do by having a character not turn or not speak is extraordinary to me. And for Percy to be in the background of that conversation and you feel the absolute burning, yearning, tendrils of, like, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. dad look at me you know

I think I think that I surrender and particularly Lance Reddick's delivery of what like in response lends the necessary weight to this moment for Poseidon because I've heard so this is obviously the other payoff to the

the Solis deadline is past war is already raging so the sacrifice Poseidon makes for his son here is he's going to surrender in the war. It's a point of pride more than anything else. It's a huge blow to the old godly ego to, you know, give up the fight to his brother. Yes. I've heard some people who don't really vibe at this moment say, like, what exactly is he giving up?

It's not like Zeus is going to like take the ocean, you know, like, what is he giving up? And I'm like, I think pride is enough. And I think Zeus's reaction of like this is a holy, this is a huge, unexpected, what are you talking about you give up? I think that gives us all the weight we need for what this decision means. I think especially, I agree, and I think especially because that's what this was about in the first place. Wounded pride, right? Like the insult of taking the master bowl is how dare. you. How dare you put your hand on what is mine? How dare you use, you know, when you think it's

Poseidon or whatever and actually, it wasn't Clarice, guys. This is the quest. Shucking. The idea that someone would have the gall to take the master bolt, right? And so like pride was what was on the line in the first place. And so for Poseidon to say, I don't need to beat you. the more important thing, actually, especially again in the context of the story where so often we'll hear this, certainly from Luke, and in a few minutes, this question of like, do we even matter to these people? Like, we're nothing to them.

And so this gives us a crystallized concrete. It's not something slipping through our hands. Like the sea, it's like a piece of coral reef we can hold, right? It's tangible. It's real. It's a thing that Poseidon gave up. It is. And like Percy was, it's not just that he did it.

It's like Percy got to see it. Percy got to hear it. He's never gotten a moment like that. What is my dad ever done for me? Is a question Percy has asked again and again and again. And it's like, here it is. This is what he's done for you. Zeus fucks off.

After they have this conversation in Greek. Beautiful to listen to it, by the way. Lance Reddick saying Greek god names in the Greek. I'm saying this is my new ringtone for you. Yeah, exactly. it's my text tone for you. When you text me, it's going to be like, Atana. Anyway, Zeus is like, I never want to see Percy again, okay?

Yeah. Uh-huh. TBD. If that happens. I'm sure it'll be fine. Then Poseidon turns around. Finally collapse eyes on this kid, right? I'm going to cry.

And he says, he said, this is a book line. Word for word. obedience doesn't come naturally to you, does it? He says, no, that, da, that, sir. And then Poseidon says, I must take some of the blame, I suppose. The sea does not like to be restrained. When are we getting those tattoos, Mallory?

I'm in. As you know, I already want to get like an ocean wave as a tattoo, so I would happily get this inscribe under it. The writing in the books is gorgeous. The writing in the show is gorgeous. It is very notable to me that this is like a word for work. You take something perfect. And like, hearing this made me so happy not only because it is such a beautiful line.

And we got to hear Toby Stevens deliver it gorgeously. I rewatch this like this, just this one exchange, like 50 times. It was just so beautiful. The way that he's smirking. And that idea, that core idea, right? It's true. Like, Percy's a rebel. Percy can't work inside of that system that he's balking against.

And to get this beautiful passage from the book, like, you know you have. Sometimes you're adapting and changing and sometimes you're like, this is a thing that must remain intact and preserved in amber and then said aloud by a beautiful performer. So it was just great to hear it. I loved this entire exchange. It was wonderful. And seeing that, like, proud little smile on Poseidon's face, I thought. was beautiful. I loved it. What I love is that

Percy's like, besides like that rebellious streak that comes from me. Yeah. And Percy, of course, has to remind him what he got from his mom. He's like, sure, sure, sure. Guess what? Sally Jackson taught me a lot of things.

You know? I'm Sally Jackson's son. Okay. My heart is just melting. Absolutely melting during the sequence, all of it. Can I read a passage or two about what Percy was thinking when he looked at him

at his father for the first time? Because I just love these descriptions so much. These are kind of dotted throughout this section. Joe, you read one of them last week. It was in the Tommy Bahama shirt section, but to reiterate the eye crinkle, right? But his eyes see green like mine were surrounded by

sun crinkles that told me he smiled a lot too. I've always loved that. But these are the two that get me the most, I think. His voice stirred my oldest memories. That warm glow I remembered as a baby, the sensation of this God's hand on my forehead. Because the idea of absence is so central, right?

So, like, Percy is sure. It's like, I know he, I know he saw me when I was a baby. I know it. And then he sees him and it comes back to him so clearly. And this idea, this is something you and Daphne talked about as well, that, like, Poseidon's world, right, that people were always watching Percy. They were checking in when he's looking out on the ocean.

and there's somebody there. Like, that was real. And for Percy to feel that and know that that was true is like such a cool little moment. But this is my favorite one. It was like looking at the ocean. Some days you could tell what mood it was in.

Most days, though, it was unreadable, mysterious. Like, this is an essential element. I think Toby nailed this in this sequence. It's so true of the ocean, too. My friend is sometimes like very placid and calm and soaking up the rays. And sometimes she's like green and angry and crashing around and thrashing around. And sometimes you just, ineffable is the word that I would use.

Describe my friend, The Ocean. I love that. And you never have to ask me if you can read me a passage. I always want to hear you read to me. It's my favorite thing. That exchange we heard at the beginning, it's so funny because like the exchange we heard at the beginning, which is so killer between Percy and Poseidon. Ask me a few dreams.

You spoke about the sort of specific intonation that Lance Reddick decided on for zoos. I think what Toby Stevens has decided on for Poseidon is really interesting because it's not quite his natural accent. It's a heightened sort of RP Lordly where he says moron. And he says a moron. Like it's very, you know, taffy-nosed. And so I absolutely love that choice. But I was enraptured with this exchange. just the opening quote of this podcast.

And then I was re-listening to the conversation that I had with Daphne. And I had forgotten this thing she said about Toby, which is like one of his greatest gifts. And she was probably just like giving me a hint about the finale that I hadn't seen at that point was how much he could do in a silence, how much he can do without dialogue, with the benefit of dialogue. And she was talking about that in reference to the Sally Beside an interaction in episode seven. But when.

Percy asks, God. Do you dream? Do you ever dream about mom, about her? And I said this one interpretation. I can't remember where I saw it, and it just like gutted me. Or someone was like, this boy just wants to know someone else loves Sally as much as he does. It's his one question that he wants to ask.

His father, the God, do you dream of mom? Oh, my God. And so there's opportunity in this moment for them to use. some of the language that's in the chapter in the book where Poseidon says all these lofty things about Sally. He says, a queen among women. Like, he says all this stuff about her. And they decided to not do any of that. And he just grips the back of Percy's neck and looks at him.

And Percy looks, and they're just like, this is the part that I watched 50 times. And it's just like pulverizing to my heart. The other thing that Toby Stevens has done in his choice of the portrayal Poseidon is, you know, he's like, you know, a handsome, like, fit, beautiful man. He does not, I think, and I don't have perfect observation of him, usually stand with his shoulders that far back. Like his chest is out and the shoulders are back as Poseidon. He slightly crumples in this moment. just like ever so slightly deflates out of that sort of lordly bearing into just sort of like the gutting all the things that he has given up uh you know not poor poor pitiful Poseidon because

there's a lot of shit he's done that we're not you know talk to ask Medusa right but like I'm all the way in on the Sally Jackson beside and love story I'm all the way in I ship it yeah yeah this was so beautiful this little sound The question from Percy is so beautiful, but this little sound that Poseidon emits that hand on the neck, when he takes out the pearl, the look, this I think might have been my single, oh, it's hard to pick.

I can't pick a favor, but this is definitely one of the five to 25 best bits from Walker in the episode. The look on his face, like he's like, that's not it, is it? Yeah. We only just got this chance, like all of it in both Jericho.

It's just so beautiful. And I think it's a hard balancing act to, and again, like all of this, we've talked about this all season. Sally is so central and so present for both of them. Crucial. It is simultaneously a promise of what is to come. This is the beginning, but also like a promise fulfilled of everything that has led to this point. It's hard to get that right. But they like really nailed it, I think.

This was just, this is a short sequence between the two of them. It's just a couple minutes. Yeah. But it has taken up so much room in our hearts right away. It is just incredibly poignant and moving. And like Toby Stevens as Poseidon has had like a total of what would you say, less than 10 minutes of screen time in the show. Oh, yeah. And it just looms over everything.

The sequence between them is much lengthier in the books. And there was like a bunch of stuff in there that you like so, Mal, like what is missing that? Not like you, as you said, we both. think the scene works perfectly. It's not necessarily that like we needed it here, but what about it hit for you in the books? I'll hit three lines. I'll try to move through this quickly, but I think there are three that I was thinking about as I reread this chapter. The first one is Per's, is Poseidon saying to Percy, no one can choose your path, Percy, you must decide, which... That's the big one for me. Yeah. It just feels, it's not my actual favorite, as you know, but I do think it's the most

important in this context because, you know, we had a long chat about this last week, like that great moment in episode five when, to be clear, episode five was not last week, but our pot on it was. It sure was. It was only checking it on this one and is confused. When Percy said in episode five, okay, guys, we need to talk about this whole fate thing. Three old ladies with a ball of yarn can't know what's going to happen. What I choose to do changes what's going to happen.

and I can choose to do anything I want. And, you know, you use that as a prompt for an important conversation about how Percy thinks about fate and free will. You and Daphne had a wonderful conversation. This is something you and I always love talking about. We had a great time talking about it in Lord of the Rings.

We talk about it in a lot of stories. I think genuinely my single favorite thing to track and talk about in fantasy stories, it's often entwined with prophecy, a favorite thing of ours that we will do a lengthy series on one day, stay tuned, who can say when.

So I think there would have been something about okay, there's like the very practical in the book and the flow of the climax of the book, there's a very practical, like this sets up a decision Percy has to make regarding Gabe and Sally and the Medusa head. Like there's like a literal quality to it. But broadly,

this emphasis and the story on how you chart your own course inside of a world guided by fate, I always love that Percy gets this, not that he needs it. It's actually crucial that he's not a character who feels like he needs it, but that he gets this validating. from his father, that his father is also a character who believes in that idea and wants that for his son feels really important. So that's one. The other two are connected. They're kind of like back-to-back-ish. There's a little bit of a beat in between them. So on the heels of your mother's queen among women, which like I'm going to be honest, if Toby Stevens as Poseidon had said that, I would have been like, no notes.

You're like, that's my new ringtone, actually. So right after that on the heels of that, he says, I had not met such a mortal woman in a thousand years. Still, I am sorry you were born, child. I have brought you a hero's fate, and a hero's fate is never happy. It is never anything but tragic. I have brought you a hero's fate

and a hero's fate is never happy, is my favorite line in the book. So I mentioned this last week in our book-splore section, so some people probably didn't hear us talk about it. But this is so devastating to me. This is like one of the most devastating things I can remember reading in a fantasy story. And I love to think about whether or not that's true. And I love that Percy is a character who would insist on interrogating whether that was true and fighting to make sure that it didn't have to be. Like, it feels so sad to me that Poseidon thinks that. And then we get to think about, like, well, how would that have led him to think about how we wanted to interact with his son, right? What is he afraid of? What is Percy afraid of?

We talk all the time about the idea of, like, self-fulfilling prophecies. What do you actually bring into existence and seeking to avoid it, et cetera? It's all there in that line. I just think it's a beautiful line. And then, of course, Percy is like, you're sorry I was born. Like, Whoa, this is a brutal thing to hear. And so then Poseidon calls after him, and Percy turns around. Oh, that was the other thing. I loved hearing him to say Perseus.

Government name. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was a different light in his eyes, a fiery kind of pride. You did well, Perseus. Do not misunderstand me.

Whatever else you do know that you are mine. You are a true son of the sea god. And so he goes out of his way to say and make sure Percy understands. It's not that he doesn't love him or care about him or want him to be okay. It's that he is afraid that his own selfishness, his own lust and lack of willpower

and his own desire put his son in a position where he will not be okay. And like, what a terrible burden to carry. So I think we get a lot of that without those lines, but those are, I just think, like exquisite pieces of writing from Rick

and very also like quintessential fantasy chosen one hero's journey ideas. So I really love them. And I love, I mean, I love that where like, this is a way in which I think Percy is so different from Harry, feel free to disagree because you spent more time with Harry than I have. But like, when Dumbledore says things to Harry,

he's usually like, yep, that is the way things are, right? Dumbledore says it. He's like, he believes it. Right? Percy hears something. He's like, boy, why? Right? You know, like, when he gets to camp half blood and they're like, this is what it means to be a demigod, this is we, you know, we burn our food.

We're Aaron, boys and girls, like, blah, blah, all this sort of stuff. And he's like, well, since I haven't spent my whole, like, brainwashed here and I was raided by Sally Jackson, I have the tools in my belt to say, why? Why on earth should that be the way things are? You know, so to your point. That brisk it looks delicious. Let's eat it. Why waste it? So to your point, when if Poseidon says, you know, her story is never a happy one, but why?

Right? Why should that be my fate? You know? So. Oh. Last thing I want to say very quickly before we move on on the subject of dads. In that aforementioned making of Doc, Walker's actual parents are in it. And the moment where his dad broke out in tears about how proud he was of his son and

what a gift it was to watch your child discover the thing they're meant to do at such a young age. I was like weeping watching that. It was so moving. Oh, that's so sweet. He, I mean, like, they kind of look alike. It's funny, I asked, again, I don't think I did this on there. I think I did it after her, but I asked, Daphne, I was like, have you met his parents? She's like, yeah, I was like, is his dad really tall? Because I was like, try to track how quickly Walker's going to keep shooting up? And she's like, he is pretty tall. And I was like, and if I had just waited a couple days, I would have been able to see that doc. But just like, he's on set.

And just like the moment when he like hugs him. I don't know. It's very sweet. Please watch the doc if you have it. I also cried. Let's get down to the betrayal. I'm going to yada yada until the conversation, right? We like, Percy's as did the show essentially.

We're back at camp very quickly. the first things he sees is Thalia's tree, which I thought was like a really clever touch of like the first things he sees is the other forbidden kid who did not make it out of their interaction alive. Annabeth comes up, runs up, he gets the heroes welcome to Anabith, runs up and gives him a hug. He is a blushing. But she is using the hug to like get some business done where she's like, you see what's happening here, blah, blah, blah. And he and Annabeth and Luke have a little conversation. I don't know where Grover is in this moment, perhaps getting his license, but, you know, I missed him in this moment. And so Luke's like, no prob, let's go into the forest, just you and I, it'll be fine.

We should say that in the book, a lot more time passes in the book. Yes. Like, he's back at the camper a long time before he has his interaction with Luke. Luke bribes him with Coke. He's like, come have a Coke, Coca-Cola. say. He's like, come have a Coca-Cola with me. He's like, my twin vices, caffeine and sugar. Oh, no, I must, you know. And he has like no reason to suspect. Luke has been frosty to him since he got back, but like he is not groked to the situation yet. So he's like, sure, I'll go have some pop with

with you in the forest. But I love that he's like, I've got some Coca-Cola. Percy, follow me into the forest. Would you follow? Yeah. Yeah. No comment on whether it would have worked if it had been the other kind of Coke, which I am glad. Great clarification. How many people listening do you think we're like, whoa? Whoa. These books go hard. If I had had to spend like a couple of months at Camp Half Blood with no bubbly water and Luke comes up and is like, I've got a crisp, cool pack of Cran Raz LaCroix. I will follow him into the forest. This is how you know that Percy is like a hardcore sugarhead because like you can ask for anything in your gobble, but he's like it's not the same. It doesn't taste like the real thing. You need the genuine article. It's like that's definitely how we would be with our LaCroix. For sure. That's how I feel about. I mean, I used to be a serious Diet Coke addict. I am not anymore. But when I was like in my teens and early 20s, I was like really Diet Coke. And when I went to Europe, they'd done a Diet Coke. They have Coca-Cola Light. It's not the same. It's absolutely not the same. So when my sister came to visit me, She brought three things from the United States for me, and it was real genuine diet Coke.

Unbelievable. Tylenol? I don't know. I don't remember why. Tylenol gel caps. I couldn't get them, and I wanted them. And then peanut butter, smooth peanut butter. Oh.

Interesting customs report that she must have had to file for that one. I mean, the heart wants are the heart wants, and those were my three requests, and she fulfilled them. So thank you, Morgan. All right. So let's get to this Luke and Percy confrontation, a thing that you and I really, really loved. And also we have just a few notes about as well. So just some quick promising for people who maybe are listening to this and did not read the books or don't know this, all the stuff with Hermes and the casino, talking about Luke's mom and stuff like that, that's not in the book. And so that was a way for the show to try to plant the seed of Luke has something to be. bitter and angry about. He monologues about it a little bit in the book version of this confrontation, but that idea of like planting it in the middle of the season was something, a show change that I think was, that works really well. And then I would just say as like a top

note, tease that we're going to talk about bring up good old Anakin Skywalker again. This is so Star Wars coded, this whole exchange, the fireworks lighting on their faces looked like lightsaber glowing on their faces. Like, it's so dark side, like side, Kylo to Ray, whatever you prefer, join me, conversation in a way that I did not get from reading the books. And I'm curious if you felt that old Star Wars feeling when you're reading the books or if it was just the way that it was framed to the show or what was your experience with that? Interesting question. I agree with you that it is palpable in the show. Yeah. I mean, particularly when Percy says, is it possible to learn the story?

power and who says not from an Olympian, you know, like particularly then, but it's like, you can really feel like, your new golden age. Only a demigod deals in absolutes. I love this stretch. Yeah, you're right. I don't think the Star Wars energy is quite as palpable in the first book. I feel a little bit more of it in. subsequent books, this idea of like the pull to the dark side and the fact that like

relationships would be ultimately like more so or entwined with some sort of like thirst for power what led you to misstep that that, that, that, I think there are comps there. But yeah, it is present here in a way that is, I wish I loved. I thought it was like a great note to strike. Oh, I loved it too. Yeah. Give us a rest from the Percy comps and we can talk about Skywalker. Thompson said, yeah.

Dude, and like the, I mean, the fireworks were, the visuals of the fireworks were great throughout, but the, like, moment that, like, the beat where we get a close-up of each of their faces is the truth is dawning on Percy, like the going through the lines of the prophecy and, like, lingering on Luke. It's like, we're not quite getting Anakin Red Eyes here, but, like, it's achieving a lot of the same effect. That was really effective, uh, framing and staging for, for this sequence. Enjoyed that. Something you might already know, listener, if you follow the Percy Jackson channel on TikTok like I do,

or if you follow the Percy Jackson channel on Instagram like Mallory does, is that Walker Scoble has his own Anakin Skywalker costumes. I love this. Wonderful. Love to know it. And as I mentioned, Charlie said that he was thinking about Anakin a lot in this exchange. And speaking of Charlie, his delivery of... When the shoe drops, I didn't mean to say the shoe drops, but I did.

When the flying shoe drops and he says, I didn't think you'd give him to Grover to wear. Stornin, right? He's got tears in his eyes. This was really good. As he says it. It's really, really good. These kids were great in this scene. You already mentioned, I would say one of my, the bad is, once again, Detective Percy is just,

like eerily on the case. He can't know everything all the time in advance, you know? Our beloved pal and colleague and longtime Percy had Zach Cram wrote a great piece on the ringer.com. What a great website. We mentioned a great piece that Zach wrote at the beginning of the season. He's written another one at the end of the season about the success of the adaptation overall and the things that they tweaked and how that really helped make this hum. I'm paraphrasing off the top of my head,

but at one point he does, he's like, what else could they change next season and what maybe changes didn't work as well? And I believe his line is just make the kids dumber. Like, which, yeah, I do think that this got a little,

we moved a little too far in the deductive reasoning is like, not something that we are watching them work through clue by clue. It's like, Percy knows everything, very quickly. And it's fine for him to know it sometime. It's just every time is when you're just sort of like, okay, I just, I need, I need him to be taken by surprise a few times.

Yeah. I'm your friend. Percy, none of this is meant to betray you. The gods are my enemy. You, I'm here to recruit. Recruit? Easy. I don't want to fight.

This is what I wanted to show you. Okay. So, and then, I mean, backbiter enters the chat. We'll talk about that in a second. But this is not, this is such an improvement of the book because in the book, we should mention, Luke is actively trying to murder Percy in this moment via a pit scorpion. And almost succeeds. Percy very nearly dies. He's like, I brought you here to rant and rave and crumple some Coke cans and kill you with a scorpion. Fuck you bye.

That is not. And I, Percy, there's a new golden age coming. You won't be part of it. That is different from I'm here to recruit. Different. So it's, you know, Kilmonger has a point. Like all the things that he says are very much. But the foil and paralleling, because there's like a moment, a flittering of expression across Percy's face of like, this guy is making some sense.

Or I'm slightly tempted by what he's saying here. which is very key. But I want to thank our listeners and the various Percy Jackson heads across the internet. We've constantly been talking about the Lightning Thief musical, which I did watch. It is on YouTube.com, and I did watch it. And this one parallel, a lot of the fans of the musical have been bringing up, is that Luke and Percy as foils of each other is not so clear in the Lightning Thief. book. But perhaps further down in the series, who shall say? We'll say maybe later in this episode. But I don't know that it was top of mind for Rick when he wrote Luke in this first

book. And so this is one of those changes where it's like, this feels like more maybe what he has in mind going forward. But it's there in the musical. Percy has his great song, Good Kid, that he sings right at the end of Act 1. It's like the Act 1 almost closer. where he says, I swear I never stole anything. I swear I never meant to hurt anyone. I swear, I swear that I'm a good kid, a good kid who's had a bad run. And then Luke, when he's his confession song, inside of a different song, he has a little mini reprise of that song.

And he says, so I don't, I'll do anything. I don't care if I hurt anyone. It doesn't pay to be a good kid, a good kid, a good son, et cetera, et cetera. So like the musical is very clearly trying to make these kids two side of the same coin. And I think this episode in the way that is framed, the voiceover parallels, all the things we've been talking about does a really masterful job of drawing those comparisons for the story going forward. Interesting. What do you want to say about now that I've had Musical Corner with Joanna Robinson, TM, do you want to do a magical sword corner with Mallory Rubin, TM? Talk about Backbiter.

Backbiter. It's really all there in the name, folks. Sure is. How do you compare it to Widows' Whale as a sort name? Unsurprisingly, we both went to Joffrey here. Widows whale, Lions' Tooth, Hearteater, Widows' Whale, you know, three pantheon entries from Joffrey Baratheon, king of subtlety. Yeah. If no longer.

King of Westeros. And certainly not a king If he feels like he needs to say that he is Okay Oh yeah exactly I wonder if Taiwan has any thoughts on that And you think you think Taiwan has any thoughts on that Let's check in with Charles Dance

I'll read a passage now About the description from from lightning thief Here it is Now that his sword wasn't swirling around I could sense something odd about it The blade was two different types of metal one edge bronze, the other steel. Now, this is cool.

It's a cool design for a magical weapon. Why does this matter? This is actually important because celestial bronze, the material for Riptide, Percy's sword, we've seen it, kills monsters, right? What would pass right through a mortal? And there's a lesson that Percy learns from Chiron in the book,

which of course tracks perfectly for Percy, a hero. you shouldn't harm immortal. The hero should not do that. Luke's sword, the sword that he is carrying backbiter, it can do both. And we should say that he's showing off the sword before he reveals that he's a villain. And so he's like, my sword is half-tempered steel. And Percy's like, in his head is like, that doesn't seem very cool. I know.

Why? Why? Why? So why is it called backstabber? Oh, backbiter. It's sort of still like, but like, you know, backstabber? Like, is that what you name your sword? Like, why?

Yeah. Cool looking weapon design, though. I enjoy the, like, heft of it. And I will share some further thoughts later. Before we get to the book, spoiler section, I mean, let's just do this all of a piece. How did you feel about the fact that it worked like the subtle knife sort of at the end of the sequence? Right down to the design of the way the subtle knife portal opening, looks in the HBO adaptation, which I thought was kind of interesting.

So in the book, it's like a Luke does use Backbiter to open a portal and vanish, but he's just very quickly casting in an arc, and then he's gone. Disappeared into a ripple of darkness. A ripple of darkness. Beautiful. Again, beautiful. So it's canonically established that the sword has this power. This, the attention drawn to that here?

Hmm. Here's a stroke. Now we're dueling. I'm going to reach past. There's another stroke. Like it is almost a choreographed dance to get to the point of opening the portal. So a lot more is made of it. I have a question about this that I will be raising later.

Great. Okay. Let's listen to something that Luke says to tell. perempt, Percy, please, Steve. Stop saying we. It's the word Zeus fear is the most. God's want us to fight for them. Worship them, fear them.

And they couldn't care less what we want. They're bad parents, Percy. And they've gotten away with it for far too long. Percy response is like, yeah, they're not great. But they're doing their best and met your dad. And then Luke is like, Hulk smash. Like, you said, my dad. And now it's all.

It's over. It's over. And then we get to, I think, the worst part of, I think, actually, the entire episode is what I would say. My biggest note. Annabeth is here. She's been listening. She's been cloaked this whole time. She stops Luke from killing Percy.

She's not there in the book. So this has, like, rather large implications for the fact that, like, Annabeth witnesses this firsthand, which she does. doesn't in this first book here. So we'll talk about that a bit more in the bookspiller section. But leaving those implications aside, I just think the execution of this was just like a real splash of cold water on an absolutely heater of a scene. Her like taking, I mean, I think Leah, as a performer, has, like, gotten better and better as the season has gone along.

Like, I think she was like a little stiff at the beginning. I think she's just gotten better and better and better. And this felt like a regression to me where, like, when she takes the, and she was like, I was hurt the whole thing. And it's so stilted and it's so inorganic. And it's also just confusing why she would wait that long. Like she, like, Percy's already like mega injured before she even like reveals herself. And it's just like odd timing.

And then I would say a larger failing of the season is I don't think they did all the work that they needed to do to drive home how important the Annabeth Luke relationship was. They've mentioned it here and there. But I don't think they've sold it without the book to back it up to newcomers to the story, that this is like her person. This should be such a bigger moment than what we get here. Mal what was your thoughts and feelings? Yeah, this did not work for me either. You do feel, I think, the history between them when Luke says her name.

like when he realizes that she saw this. But I think to me this feels, this feels like the we're out of time choice because it just feels like they didn't have room for a scene explaining to Annabeth and Grover what had happened, basically. Like there's not room for that follow-up conversation. Annabeth is a character who we have established

in episode two has this history with Luke, so we need to like just have her witness it in real time, etc. Like you said, some interesting implications for what witnessing it firsthand means, but it didn't work for me in real time. And I think for the reason you identified of like pulled us out of the rhythm, like the flow of the conversation between Luke and Percy. Like they've gotten away with it for far too long. Like this is a, I mean, we're at its heightened fever pitch moment in this exchange. this idea that Luke is presenting, they couldn't care less what we want.

They're bad parents. Like, this is a crucial thing. And so to hit the brakes on it there, I thought also it was just jarring. Again, like, I get it. We've got to, like, accelerate to the conclusion of Luke's exodus. But I did not love that either.

That was one of the weak points of the episode for me. Luke says, bye, and fucks off through a portal. And we are racing to the end of this episode. in which, like, you already mentioned, Kairan has his Dumbledore-esque debrief with Percy. We get one final comedy gen from our pal, our shared pal, Jason Menzuchus,

who, when Walker in an interview was asked, like, what was the funniest, what he thought the funniest part of the whole thing was, he was mentioning how on the day, like, there's some improv from Jason in this moment. You can hear in the background of him, just, like, accosting individual campers and being like, you, back your stuff.

stuff and he was like that he just like went off and like Walker was like that's the funniest thing I've ever seen um delightful the golden trio 90% sure it's beater uh the golden trio uh as I as we shall call them say goodbye until season two Annabeth has her necklace back Percy kept the necklace on all through all through the Luke fight all of that she has her necklace back and he has his own he got his first bead on his own necklace. Yes, he did. And we should say the bead for this summer at the camp is, it's a Percy bead. It's a Trident.

It's about him being claimed. It's about his quest. And like, his story is the defining story of this summer. A camp Halfblood, what a, what a cool little thing. Also, Grover says of his impending quest to look for Pan and his searcher's license, no one's ever bothered to check the seas. Not a spoiler to say that the second book is called the Sea of Monsters. So there you go.

Setting up season two. There's some beautiful Disney synergy. I mean, it's also, I guess, running out of time of missed up to not maybe spend more time with Annabeth's decision to go spend time with her dad, which is this huge move for Annabeth. After everything we've learned about her experience with her dad, she's going to spend time with her dad, going to Disney World, which again is not in the book, but this property is owned by Disney now. So it is in show. And then we have back to Montauk, or so we think. Sally Jackson returns, or so we think. It's interesting, we don't see their actual reunion, right?

We see this dream interaction, and then when he wakes up, they've already reunited. So we never saw that moment. It's kind of fascinating. What did you make of this chronos appearance here? I actually quite liked it. You did not? I don't know. How do you feel?

Yeah. Yeah, I enjoyed it. That is my hope. Your survival is the key to my return. Dun, dun, dun. Quite a harbinger. The way the lantern's swinging, just like the creature design, it's C.G. But, like, I don't know, it looked, I thought it looked properly creepy.

Yeah. And I like, too, just this idea that, you know, Percy's like, are we like, we're not done with this? And it's like, no, bud. We're just getting started. You know? We just get started. Yeah. So.

And the, like, yours. survival is the key to my return, helps us understand why in the book Kronos stops the fight between Arias and Percy. Yeah. That's the other thing about changing the Luke's Scorpion thing, in addition to some other

things about the choice that I think work well in positioning the characters. It is a little odd reading the books, and you're like, Kronos wants to prevent Aries from killing Percy, but then Luke tries to like chapters later. Two chapters later, that is a little odd.

So this, yeah, I thought this tracked and then you get that kind of cementing from creepy cronos. Percy calling him. Grandpa and Sally saying don't call him that was hysterical. Sally stuff is beautiful as always. I love that she has like, gets out her little notebook and pen to be like, what did grandpa say now? I mean, she's like, don't call grandpa.

What did crud? Like, they're a team. They're a team. You're having scary prophetic dreams. We're tracking it at all. We're writing a day. Like, they're dream journaling together and like this idea that she remains even after.

Because it was one thing for this to be true before. He went to Camp Halfblood and met all these people. But, like, she is still his most trusted advisor. And the fact that he doesn't choose to tell her what Kronos, what creepy grandpappy Kronos said in his dream is to protect her. He doesn't want to scare her. It doesn't mean he doesn't trust her. Like, we can glean from this that he has been telling her

and she has been recording and working through with him to parse what all of these things mean that he is seeing in his dreams. Like, what a lovely thing to know that, like, he's not with Chiron, he's not with any of these other. It's not with Poseidon. Like, Sally is the one there by his bedside

when he wakes up in the morning, trying to help him figure out how to go about the day. This is beautiful. And then she makes him blue pancakes. Blue pancakes. And it's, like, the trick, the greatest trick that the show played is convincing me that this is a seventh grader,

about to start seventh grade. Like, you know, you look, I guess a little, maybe, but like looks like a seventh grader, feels like a kid about to start seventh grade. But also, I believe that he's like eternally a soft mama's boy who would be like, don't forget to tell your mom how much you love her today. And then they like do a little forward forehead touch and it's so sweet. Okay.

That we get this closing voiceover, which as I teased before is like a, you know, a fitting bookend to where we started this season when he says, the stories you heard about Greek gods, heroes and monsters. I'm here to tell you they're real. If you ever feel like you don't fit, like the world doesn't make sense. sense. You might be a part of our world. So don't give up because we might need you for the fight ahead. First is where we started with Percy where he's like, you don't want to be a demigod. Oh my God, run away. It's death and destruction. It's terrible. This is where we end.

There is a theme throughout the book. And we talked about this and we talked about episodes one and two, this idea, especially like because Percy is like dyslexic and all this sort of stuff, this idea of like if you feel odd out of place, all this sort of stuff, like maybe you're a wizard, maybe you're a demigod, you know, maybe this is like you've got this cool destiny in front of you. But it starts with this caution and it ends with this invitation. Yes. Of like, we need you. It might be a part of our world. Don't give up. I think it's beautiful. I agree. It's such a lovely note. I'll mention one more thing from the lovely little making of Doc, which was one of the extras in the Camp Halfblood sequence

who was like, I am a kid with ADHD and I read these books and I feel like I have like a place where I belong. And it was like beautiful and like really, really moving and touching. And to know that like after Percy lived through all this, the monsters that he's fought,

the horrors that he's suffered, the betrayal. Luke can say it's not a betrayal all he wants. The betrayal that Percy suffered from somebody who he had put his faith in. And the decision that he makes to go back to, because he has to make this decision, am I staying in camp here around, am I going back, right? The decision that he makes to go back, it's not about, like, rejecting this other part of his life. It's the recognition that all of these parts of his life are what make it his life, specifically. And matter. The human part of his demigod, and as we've been saying, all season, is like a key part to why Percy is a different kind of hero in this world populated by heroes.

Yes. And so I think the word you use, like, invitation is the perfect one to give us that welcoming, to say like you can find belonging here too. It's a really meaningful thing for people. I thought that was just such a lovely note to end on. Not technically the end note, that's Gabe, but still such a lovely note to end on. Gabe, we should say, let's not linger too long here. But like Gabe we should say this story is very different in the book. From the beginning, I don't know if we've talked about. this in the non-book spoiler section. Perhaps we have. But like, Gabe in the book is an abusive monster, much more so than like the buffoon dick that he is in the show. He is like an abuser. And so at the end of the story in the Poseidon-Persy interaction is this conversation about the Medusa head and the choice. And then like, are we going to use it on Gabe? Is Sally going to use it on

Gabe, this whole thing, and then it turns out she does, and then she, like, goes back to school, and it's, like, this big empowering moment for Sally, but I'm just sort of like, I like, I really like that they changed it. I like, and I, I think a complaint people had about softening of Gabe is that, uh, then Sally's sacrifice is not as pointed because she stays with Gabe because he smells bad so that he can mask Percy. the whole like bad smells mask a demigod thing was dropped I think soon after the bus bathroom situation. But I don't feel like I'm lacking an understanding of Sally Jackson's sacrifice in this show.

I agree. Like her heartbreak, especially in the stuff we got in episode seven when she's like dropping Percy off at a boarding school and stuff like that. It is very clear to me. So I did not need an abusive husband to drive that home. I did not need Sally Jackson to murder him with a medusa head. He brought it upon himself, and that's just perfectly fitting for this complete buffoon. Dipshit, Gabe. Yeah.

So I will say in the version of it that we get in the book, it is meaningful for Sally to say to Percy. Because he's like, she's talking about Poseidon, right, and saying, this is the thing we were alluding to earlier. like what Poseidon saying like you're going to have a choice to make like will you kill Gabe with this Medusa head that I've returned to send her. It's waiting for you in your room. And Sally starts to say like about Poseidon, he thought he could solve all my problems with the wave of his hand. And Percy says, what's wrong with that? And she says, I think you know Percy. I think you're enough like me to understand. If my life is going to meet anything, I have to live at myself. I can't let a God take care of me or my son. I have to find the courage on my own. And then later when he's,

He's leaving the apartment. He's watching his mother look at Gabe and his inner model goes, a steely look of anger flared in my mother's eyes. And I thought just maybe I was leaving her in good hands after all her own. So that's a really important moment in the book. But that's the version of Sally we have all season. We already ever. Yeah.

I find the courage on my own. I'm in the capable hands that are on my own. That's the Sally we're with the whole way. All right. We are going to go directly to our book reader corner. Do not pass go. Do not collect any Easter eggs. And we will see you.

You have read the books or don't mind about spoilers. We'll see you in Book Reader Corner. So you've read further into the series and I have, so I'm sure you have much more to say than I do. But one thing that I do want to raise here is this idea, again, that I've just seen crop up from a lot of book readers. I don't know a ton of spoilers. But I do know a few things. And I do know that this concept of a fatal flaw is a very key idea. And Percy's fatal flaw is loyalty.

And so this idea that he's like fighting Luke and apologizing to him as Luke is actively trying to like hurt him. I'm sorry. You know, is a very key like Percy's fatal flaw is his loyalty. What do you want to highlight in this book reader section? I'll go rapid fire through a few things because I don't want to spoil things for you or anyone. Oh, I don't mind. Let's talk about Backbiter for a second. Book two, Steve of Monsters.

Every time Percy sees Backbiter again when he comes into contact with Luke, there's like a great passage about it. Like our attention is drawn to Backbiter. So you're just like, what is going on with Backbiter? Something is up with Backbiter, right? I didn't know how the blade had been made, but I sensed a tragedy. Someone had died in the process. That's from the second book. And then we build, we go, Book 4.

It's like, this is chronos. is blade. This is the blade that cut, that he used to destroy his father, that they used to cut him into a thousand pieces. And so the idea of this weapon returning after it has made its way through history, you know I love like an elder wand has to tracing a bloody course through history weapon. We're going to have to do another, we're going to have to do a part two of our magical weapons spot one day, like more and more make their way into our lives every day.

You're now deep in the Brando Sando Hive, so you'll meet more and more as you go. And one day I'll learn what they all are, too. I guess the next thing that's worth highlighting for a minute that was maybe difficult to talk about in full in the primary part of the pod is just the recruitment idea. Because like, okay, so I thought this was fascinating for a couple different reasons. Obviously, like the main one is, I think, the role of the great prophecy in the story, which let's come back to that in a second. there's the just actual plot mechanic of Luke recruiting half-bloods to his army, which is like a really central part of how he builds and amass his strength. And so I like, I was talking to cram about,

what's like a pretty, because I'm trying to kill this kid with a scorpion and just saying out loud, we're trying to recruit him. And like, that's a pretty big change. I think it's smart in addition to kind of like, streamlining the wait, are we trying to kill Percy or save Percy at the end here? Confusion. It's smart to set up not only this larger dynamic, but the fact that Luke is on a mission to bring people into the fold.

And when I was chatting with Kram about it, he was like, I think it's really smart to set the stage early for like the turmoil inside of the camp. And then I was thinking, like not just the external world, but among the demigods. Like, which side are you on, you know? Like in the book when Luke is explaining this decision to serve Kronos, normal, to Percy, and we get that the book version of the, Luke, you're talking about our parents. And Luke says, that's supposed to make me love them.

Their precious Western civilization is a disease, Percy, it's killing the world. The only way to stop it is to burn it to the ground, start over with something more honest. We might as well be in episode four of Asoka right there, right? But like, that's supposed to make me love them. Like the number, then you can just see how Luke would be able to say a version of this half blood after half blood and that a number of them would say, you're speaking, you're speaking. My language.

Yeah. How far into Percy Jackson and Olympians have you read? Which book are you one now? I'm three. Four. Four. I've finished four. Okay.

Then I know something that I won't tell you from the final book. So let's move on. What else do you want to talk about? I guess just great prophecy. Like, it felt like this episode set to stage well for, and it's a book to, you know, introduction. So I presume that that will remain the case in season two, see of Monsters will, in addition to giving us Tyson,

can't wait. I can't wait to see who they cast us as Tyson. I can't wait to meet Tyson. Give us, start to center the great prophecy in the story, and that will remain a central thing the rest of the world. way. And so, like, I thought that Kyron going to Percy at the end and saying, yeah, that's what worries me. Like, Luke not wanting to kill you is what worries me in particular was a very important thing to highlight because Kronos seeking to control the prophecy through how he

attempts to eliminate or acquire and then deploy. different half-bloods who may or may not be the half-blood who was at the center of the great prophecy is like this kind of central thread the rest of the way. So setting the note for that, I liked a lot. That's really, that's it. That's it. I mean, we could do a million things, but those were the ones I wanted to hit. What else is on your list? I mean, I will just stay on brand and say, I think the very sweet Percy and Annabeth, like, slow role of their connection is being done very, very well. And all the little, moments and all the little looks that they exchange as their relationship builds is very sweet and precious to me. They're so cute, cute little kids. Yeah, I think that's fine for now.

I think we've spent a beautiful two-plus hours talking about Percy Jackson. I wouldn't change a thing. Sad the show's over. Very sad. And sad that they have not even started shooting season two. So like, we have so long to wait. I'm devastated about that. It can't be a quick show to make, right? Like all of the effects and, yeah, I mean, is it going to be two years until another season? Yeah, I hope they start making them back to back. I hope the show was successful enough that Disney's like, let's just green light, green light, green light, let's go.

Sort of similar to what they did with His Dark Materials on HBO when they just started to like film them back to back sort of thing. Thank you, Mallory Rubin. Thank you, Joanna Robinson. This is a real joy. I had a blasts. Thank you to our listeners who are like, read the books, do the whole thing. Because, like, you've had a really good time getting into this world. Thank you to everyone who worked on the show for doing such a great job.

Thank you to all of you who are currently emailing us, Hobbes and Dragons, g-emil.com with your mailbag questions for next week. Thank you. Steve Allman for that crow noise, as well as many other. things for production, for producing this episode. Thank you to our Jenner-Rin-R-Kal and to Jomey at Dineran as always to cram for all of his Percy Jackson insights that have been helpful for us in covering the show. And we will be back next week with a mailbag episode. And then at Trots Course. Bye!