House of R - ‘Project Hail Mary’ Deep Dive. Plus: Andy Weir!

Episode Date: March 21, 2026

Amaze! Amaze! Mal and Jo hop aboard the Hail Mary and head to Tau Ceti to dive deep into ‘Project Hail Mary.’ They talk about everything they loved about the movie and break down some of the adaptation choices from the book. Then they are joined by the author of ‘Project Hail Mary,’ Andy Weir!(00:00) Intro(05:51) Opening Snapshot(26:01) Deep Dive(01:54:56) Andy Weir InterviewHosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinGuest: Andy WeirProducer: Carlos ChiribogaStudio Production: Chris ThomasSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of our. Happy Friday. Happy Friday. We're not usually here on Friday. It's true. Except when we're doing Talk to Throne. Sometimes we are here on Fridays.

We're a ringer-verse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to fist my bump. It's Joanna Robinson. That's all right. Fist bump, buddy. Fist bump. Roger Hill, Mary.

I know, I'm so excited. It's here. It is finally Project Hill Mary time. It's not just me here today, though, right? No. We're going to do a deep dive and chat about this movie that we loved. Spoiler. Chat about this book that we have loved. Spoiler.

And then, who will we be hearing from at the end of this podcast? Andrew, does he ever go by Andrew? I don't know. One Mr. Andy Weir is here. He does now. Andy Weir. Will we look different in different clothing and different hair? Don't worry about it.

It was definitely filmed today in that interview with Andy Ware. We're in different outfits. My hair is, I'd say the same, which is to say increasingly gray. Your hair might be different, though. You like to mix it up. Find out. After this.

After this. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after,

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apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, Joe. Yes. The Andy Weir chat will be at the end of the episode today. So everybody please stay tuned for that. We genuinely had a great time chatting with him about not just this adaptation and his work, but honestly kind of just like space, nerd

stuff. We talked to little Star Wars. We talked a little doctor who. Nerd stuff go. Nerd stuff go. I mean, always here. Which stuff go? Nerd stuff go. Which is, Be gone. No. Stay. Yeah, be stay. Yeah.

Be stay. Be stay witches. Programming reminders before we get into the deep dive? Great question. We've got a bunch of people have been asking us to break down the Dune and Spidey trailers, which we will be doing. That's right. Did they drop a little earlier than we expected? Yes.

They did. But we will be getting to that. We will also be checking in on Daredevil. That's right. That's launching next week. That's right. We've got all that on the horizon. We've got more Chris Nolan movies to get to.

before The Odyssey is here. We sure do. We sure do. I know. Wild stuff. Very exciting. And then despite the fact that the reboot is canceled, we will be continuing a pace with our Buffy rewatch.

Mallory has watched most of, not all of, but most of season four. Yeah, I only have a couple episodes left. So the word stevedore does mean something to you now. So that's exciting. Sure. Boy, does it. You receive some text from me about that. If you're wondering, how can I follow along?

Guess what? Normally we say the same shit about that. we've got an update. You could, of course, follow the pod, right? Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys Pew Pue on Ring Reverse great stuff and on the Ringiverse YouTube channel. Guess what? We have new social handles. So you can follow House of Our Pod. That is, House of Our Pod on Instagram and TikTok. It's very exciting. Mallory has a big project coming up that we're hoping to document on social media.

Sure. I don't want to say anything specifically about it, but it's very exciting. And we would love for you to be with us every step of the way. So how's it of our pod? Yeah. We've got some ideas cooking for what we're going to get up to on the old Instagram and TikTok. It's going to be fun. Also, the inbox is always open.

Hobbits and dragons and email.com. Send us your thoughts on Buffy Season 4, on the beginning of Daredevil, on the recent Spideon trailers, anything else that's coming up, mall shadow lord. What else is coming up soon? Anything else that's airing this spring, or if you want to start emailing us about things this summer, great, do it. We'd love to hear from you. Send us all of your thoughts on Rocky, even though we're talking about the movie today.

We want all of your Rocky emails. Spoiler warning. I mean, it's an obvious one today. If it's in the film, Project Hail Mary, which just came out, we can talk about it today. And also if it's in Project Hair Mary. Okay. Which is the Whig Watch TM with Joanna Robinson, T.M. Yeah, the Jesse Buckley,

wore as Mary Shelley and the bride. Yeah, you're used to getting... Project Hair Mary. You're used to getting the making of Futurrette. Yeah. And this is one that will recalibrate your expectations for what to expect your shoulder concept. So what they want is more info about the bride.

If it happened in either Project Hair Mary or Project Hail Mary, we're going to talk about it today. It's on the table. If it came up in the book, it could come up. If it came up in the film, it could come up. Strange, esoteric gold thing. that's on the table. Like it's a dish.

It looks like it could be half of an egg. If you're not watching a video podcast, we're talking about a thing that's on the table in front of us. Arjuna has suggested, yeah, half like a dino egg. Yeah, it's, well, now that we've said dinosaur, I don't want to say this, but it almost makes me hungry. It looks like it could have contained candy.

Oh, you want to eat dinosaur eggs. I don't. That's why I specifically said. My life finds a way. My life finds a way. You mean your life. You will get your protein count, even if it means stopping proteins. It just makes me think of, like, cracking it open and, you know, like Easter candy or some sort of, like, could it be filled with Cadbury Cream eggs or something? Not actual eggs, candy eggs. That sounds right.

Candy eggs, yeah. Eggs with a lot of sugar, maybe some caramel. That sounds like cream filling. That sounds like to me. Absolutely. Wonderful. Okay. Any other programming reminders, notes about things that may or may not be coming?

We're only going to have one pod next week. We didn't say that. But one pod next week because I will be on a family visit. and then we'll be back after that. Yeah. And that's all there is to say about that. And now let's talk about Project Hair Mary. All right, opening snapshot.

Okay, normally we talk about movies on Mondays. So we have a little more context for like, what was the box office, et cetera? It's a Friday. We don't really know. We have some projections, though. It looks like this movie is going to do pretty well. It does. I'm really excited about that.

We'll see exactly how well it does. But like if the runtime proves at all, like an obstacle to people because it's a chunky runtime. It's a long one. But I love it. Really well reviewed. No, no, no. I love the movie.

I think everyone should go see it, obviously, quite obviously. But get out there. Really well reviewed. Really great audience reaction so far. Yes. Here's my prediction. I think the runtime will be a slight obstacle this weekend, but the word of mouth will be so good that this will have really long, rocky-esque legs. That's what I think.

Five of them? Yeah. Five weekends of good boxoff of returns for projects. kill Mary. I ran into Van at the coffee shop near the office this morning, and he was trying to feed me some nonsense about how people like didn't like it but did like it. By the way, this is Friday morning. So like based on, I guess, people seeing it last night. He was talking about the people in general. Okay. Yeah. This is actually largely based off of the review of a relative that works for this company. And he was like, but everyone feels that way. And then I went on the internet to try to find corroboration from what he said. And I found nothing. So Van is spreading misinformation, I think. So far, I've seen nothing but positive. I'm sure there are people who won't like it, but I've seen nothing about positive feedback from people who saw it last night. People who loved the book.

People who would never read the book. Yes. It does ask for like a big emotional buy-in. It's like a very hope-core kind of movie. But what else do we need right now, if not that? I know. I quite agree. Yeah.

I mean, it's early, early days, but both out there on yield interwebs and also just anecdotally from folks who've seen it who have chatted with Safari. I agree. It says a really positive reception. And I think that the, I loved this book. I had super high hopes and expectations, and it's met them as a methodically and carefully calibrated, but very faithful adaptation. And also for people who have no relationship to the books, you know, it's just a charm and charisma bomb. It is just oozing heart.

Hope Corps is a great way to put it. I love that. And it's visually astonishing. I found the runtime on second viewing even less. noticeable. Like I just when it ended, I was like, damn, I can sit here for another couple hours. I mean, I would love to keep hanging out with my guy, Rocky.

Yeah. We're going to go through our longer conversation about the film in a few minutes, but as we like to do here, set the table. Give us a little amuse-boosh. How did you enjoy this film each of the times that you've seen it so far?

Thanks, I love it. First, I saw it with you and and Sean. That was really delightful to like get the, like, like slightly more cynical film snob reaction. He loved it. He did. Yeah. And the Mallory Rubin, my heart is always open and full of hope reaction. She loved it. I loved it as someone who sits sort of like somewhere between those usually. And then I saw it again with my nephew and my sister. My nephew, Project Helmarie is his favorite book. And so, you know, he's like a 15 year old. And like after it, I was like, did they do it? He's like, they did it. So it was really,

really great. The first time we saw it, it was, it was like a pretty sparsely attended screening. Yes. The second screening I saw was packed. And so it was like really nice to see it with like a fuller audience. A lot of laughter. A lot of laughter. Specifically on the close encounters, a joke, which was really fun. Really great. But I wanted to start with like a just like a big picture. What I've been thinking about as we unofficially close out space movie month. You know, we've been talking about all these space movies, rewatching them. talking to our pals, Amanda and Van and Chris and Rob, the whole gang about space movies. And something that keeps coming up is like, why do we go to space? The mission is very clear in this movie, right? We have to save Earth, so we go to space.

But like what opportunities are there in the vast oceans of space? And like this idea of like that we always like to talk about, which is confronting yourself. What can you find in space? Can you find yourself? I think you brought this up a bit on the space movie draft or perhaps in The Martian. But like there are moments in this movie. Like there's a moment where Rylan sort of passes out

Half hallucinates himself on the beach And someone's walking towards him and it's him Yeah You know? So that's sort of like That very sort of visual representation of like Confronting yourself On this journey Who you are

We'll get to more details of that And there's also this quote from the book that I love I only have a couple quotes today I know you have a couple quotes today from the book But there's quote that I love From a character who did not make The movie adaptation Good old Steve Hat

right? But he says, do you believe in God? I know it's a personal question. I do. I do. And I think he was pretty awesome to make relativity a thing, don't you? The faster you go, the less time you experience. It's like capital age. He's inviting us to explore the universe, you know? And I just love that. This idea that like there's something spirit is so scientific. Yes. So scientific. And we love that. We love the science of Andy Weir stuff and like how. However, much of it might go over my head. I love that it's here. I love that this movie does a great job of nailing the emotion,

so you always understand what's happening scientifically, even if you don't understand the jargon. Right. But it's also spiritual. Absolutely. No question. Even though I don't say God with a capital H. He, like there's a spiritual wonder associated with a space journey

and very much present in this story. And I just love that about the book and the movie. Beautiful. I thought this was absolutely wonderful. And I love the book so much. I was so excited immediately upon finishing reading it for the first time to, like, start thinking about it. And this is another thing we've been tracking across Space Movie Month is, like, the aspects of space that are inherently cinematic and, like, as almost a matter of course, are going to stimulate and translate to seeing them on the big screen or hearing, like, the surround sound and the theater, sharing it with other people, you know, the idea of the crew. But like the story inside of this vast, expansive film is so intimate.

And to be able to pair something that is so deeply rooted in one man's sense of self and journey of growth and discovery. And it is a real yo-yo even inside of this movie, right? It's not linear at all in a wonderful way, unlocked by the flashback structure. And then you have this beautiful friendship, a little found family that's just so extremely, are shit, right? And then you put that in outer fucking space. It's like, it's just perfect. And Andy Weir's, which we're going to talk about the kind of like blend of tone in this film and why Drew Goddard and Lord and Miller are such perfect adapters for this book in particular. And it's such a good pairing for Andy Weir's kind of like sensibility in general. I had such an immediate

attachment to Rocky reading the story for the first time. Like really, really, really fell deeply in love with Rocky. And some of it is the surprise of confronting Rocky for the first time and the humor and the charm and the particular nature of how his like speech pattern unfolds and how these people learn to communicate with each other and finding common cause and the empowering aspects of like what you can find inside of a relationship that seems like it should be impossible. I just love all of that, but he's such an indelible creation. He really is. Like, even in the long, long, long, long, long, running history of sci-fi storytelling on the printed page or on the screen, I just think Rocky is like really memorable, truly. And the relationship that Rocky and Grace form is really memorable, truly. And so on the one hand, you finish reading the book for the first time. And I'm like, can't wait to see this, you know, rendered at scale. And then there's like a little bit of panic. Will they be able to capture that? Like a lot of it, but that specifically. And I just was so. So, I mean, you have kind of the initial almost wave of relief and then just kind of bliss, like sheer bliss to luxuriate in it. So I had a really wonderful time seeing it for the first time, but then I went again.

That was weeks ago that we got to see it together, Rashon. Then you got to see it with like the Jen Pop, like a full theater. Went last night, just like on release night. Get a circle back in a second to a merch story. Don't let me forget to tell you this. You're going to love it. This is a classic Mallory Rubin. Merch story.

Merch story. And just like, I went to see it with my husband who also loves the book and also loves Rocky and knows how much I love Rocky. Are you going to start saying merch like, like Matthew McConaughey says Murph and Interstellar? Merch! Merch! Don't go merch! I mean, it's entirely possible. I do wear enough Carhart, I think, to pull off the Cooper in general.

You and Adams, who also loves the book. I'm like, you know, it was fun to be there because you see like people who. have brought their kids, right? And they're excited and they're laughing and they're chuckling. And then you've got people who are laughing at like callbacks that you'd only understand or cultural references or like, you know, enjoying and appreciating something that's clearly a nod to like a 70-s sci-fi piece of cinematic history. It's just like it feels like a movie that a lot of people are going to like to not only consume

and watch, but share together, which is very connected to the story itself, obviously. So I love that. I love that. I know that Amanda apologized for using this term, but like I, I, four quadrant. No question. It's a four quadrant movie. No question.

So I hope it makes a bazillion dollars and gets nominated for a lot of Oscars. Do you think that Rocky will win an Oscar? If they had, oh, for Best Supporting Actor. Yeah. I think they should have a puppetry Oscar, and I think you know that I'm being very serious when I say that. It's just been a really big moment for puppets and thus for you. I have a lot of puppetry notes to get to inside of this episode of the podcast.

Merch Corner. Yeah. Do you want to start with their merch story? Anything you'd like to share? Merch, merch, anything you'd like to share about merch in your universe? Couple things. Yeah, tell me. First of all, as you already know, but thank you for setting me up.

It did take my sister and my 15-year-old nephew. They, like, I heard him chuckle a few times every time, like, Rylan showed up with a new science pun shirt. Yeah. And then I was talking to my sister earlier this week. And she was like, oh, yeah, my younger nephew, not the one who was at the movie. She's like, he loves the periodic table. And she's like, so that's why, you know, we decided to get him that, that periodic table shirt that Rylent Grace wears.

And I was like, oh, what about the, ah, the Eleanor Prize? She was like, oh, the older one wanted that one. And I was like, okay, so I set you a photo of both my nephews wearing their Rylan grace shirts, which ties into an email we got. We don't have many Project Hill Mary egos, but our listener, Rachel saw it last night and had an email for us already where she says, A, Mal has a lot of fun themed graphic teas. Who do we think is a larger collection, Mal or Rylan Grace? I think probably me just because I imagine it's a larger set of...

Oh, not just science punts. Yeah, exactly. You know, I've got my Game of Thrones collection, my Star Wars, etc. But I think inside of one area of passion, Riland could probably... I have potential is also a really good one. That's a great one. Okay. Also, I mean, he might beat me in, like, you know, how many amusing bullet points could you put on a whiteboard?

Sure, but that's not. Always muscles, question mark? We're in merch territory. We're merch. Okay. Next question from Rachel. Which tea would Mallory most want for herself? And will she be purchasing said merch tea if available?

And then I'm going to say this. I'm going to get to the third bullet point. I'm going to circle back to you. At this point, I was a little insulted. I was like, why is this email from? I mean, I know I don't wear a graphic t-shirts, but I could if I wanted to. Is this the air you start? No.

I've actually sort of moved away from it a little bit. Maybe it's your moment. I wear them like, you know, working out. I don't wear them on the podcast, but I do like wear them in the world. But the third bullet point from Rachel was, I don't feel the need to ask Joe what her favorite T was. Because I have to assume it was the cat on the Golden Gate Bridge one as both the cat lover and a Bay Area native. But please confirm, Joe. Rachel, as I was reading her email and I was like, she only asked Mallory, my answer would be the cat in the Golden Gate Bridge.

And then she had that in there. How does it feel to be seen and known? To be loved. So I just felt really special. Seen known understood. I'll follow a comment, I think, for my sister, was like, Rylan didn't get to pack his trunk for the ship. Yeah. So someone else put all of those shirts in there for him.

Right. Do you think it was Carl? Like, who packed it for? Probably Carl. Yeah. And do you think Carl was like, oh, yeah, you're getting the Golden Gate Bridge cat shirt? Probably. There's no laundry in space.

I have questions about how all of those shirts smell. I mean, there's the great moment, you know, down on Earth still when he's meeting the crew and kind of like in an embarrassed fashion. like closes his outer wear to cover his shawl collar sweaters that he wears. He's got some great... I have some questions about the science teacher aesthetic here. I love this movie. It's perfect in every way.

What do you think of the just the kind of like yellow slicker raincoat? That's a great one. That seems like standard issue. Like you're on this ship, you get a gorgeous fisherman slicker. The beanie great stuff. The frosted tips seemed very not science teacher to me. And I think the reason the frosted tip, the very bright, Ken-like frosted tips on Ryan Gosling and the flashbacks are meant to say, like, this is what it was like when he had sunshine on his hair and now he was in space and it's darker.

I think that's what it was for, but it looked very like, looked very Ken to me. Yeah. The shawl color sweaters, but the biggest offense is the glasses acting. His glasses acting is insane. Down here a lot. If you wore a pair of glasses, you would never smudge him up the way that he does. And apparently it was Gosling's idea to add glasses to make him look smarter, I believe. is what I've read in interviews, but I was just like, okay, but you're wearing them in an insane fashion.

I did like that he was, like, using them basically as a chin strap on a football helmet. Good gag when he puts the EVA suit helmet on for the first time and they're kind of like lapsided. Wonderful stuff. But even I, and I was about to describe myself as a non-glasses wearer, I think, to be more accurate. An optometrist of horror. So you clearly needs glasses but has not yet gone to secure them. Yeah. I had to assume that the constant tossing and handling was not advisable.

I was struck by the Chuck Taylor's making it to space, you know? Carl coming through, I guess. It's like, you know, the little booties. Yeah. The booties, you know, that's all you need on the ship. Okay. To go back to Rachel's question, which shirt would you most want? And will you or more accurately Adam be purchasing it for you?

Does I feel like stolen valor to wear a science pun shirt? Yeah, I don't know if science pun shirts are really my. corner, my lane. I love science as a pursuit. As you know, I had, I like telescopes. We talked about that with Van. I can't say that I'm scientifically inclined. So it's the cat and the gold gate bridge. So it's probably one of the cat shirts, yeah. He also had the cats shirt, but I don't think I would do that necessarily. So I don't know. Will Adam get me a Project Hail Mary shirt? I'd say almost certainly. That'll probably be something like Rocky It would be like a rocky thing.

It'll just say like a maze, amaze on it. Maybe. Is this your merch story? I have, I would say, I've started to secure a number of items already. I'm going a little crazy. I need to, so here's my story. Okay, so first of all, I got the Lego set, obviously. I had said, Arjuna basically, this is laughed in my face, as he should have, because he was

like, you get to get the Lego set. I was like, I'm taking a break. Oh. I've run out of space for, like. base for Legos. I also would have laughed in your face. Okay, sure. You're not going to get the project.

Nothing has been more Rocky Lego. Guaranteed than you getting the Rocky Lego. A lie I told myself for like 37 seconds that Arjuna and Adam and everyone who knows me was like, this is horseshit. Just like you're going to get this. So I got it. Let me tell you something. It's fucking great. I started to build it on Sunday and to build little mini Rocky and he's just wonderful.

I can't wait to finish it this weekend and then spend a lot of time playing with it and delay. myself. Can't wait to spend a lot of time playing with it and delighting myself. Take it out of content. You know, who we are. Here at the house of our... So last night, went to see the film at A. Regal. And I'm on Instagram, you know, as we are.

And so I had seen what some of the offerings would be. And I had said, I'm going to be disciplined. I'm not going to get any of the popcorn buckets, even though I thought they looked really cool. How many? There are a couple and maybe a few. A couple and maybe a few? But then I had seen on Instagram. I'm sorry, how are we delineating between a couple and a few?

So a couple is two, right? I know for sure that the regals have, the regal has two for sure. I don't know if, like, are there different ones at AMC and Cinemark? I'm not sure. Okay. But I went to a regal specifically for another item that I saw they had. So I want to paint the picture for you. I walk up.

And I'm looking at the display, okay? And I'm seeking out a specific thing, which I will reveal to you in a moment. I don't see it. And so I, a 39-year-old adult woman, walked up to the lovely person at the concession stand. And I said, hello. Yeah. Have you sold out of the Rocky Shoulder Buddies? Shoulder buddies.

It's a shoulder buddy. And it's a rocky shoulder ready and like perches on your shoulder and it's like a soft plush but like it purges him in the way. You'll be wearing it right now if you had been able to procure it. I had planned to have it and sit with him and then bring it in today and have it on the pod. So I said, is that not a little too close to like the bad eggs, Buffy sort of like? No, not for me. Okay. Not for me.

We were. And he said, we have. Oh. And I was despondent. But then I got both popcorn buckets. Instead, I got the space helmet, the gray space helmet and Rocky and his. Habitat. Okay, this is all I've seen so far is the 105-ounce Rocky Habitat popcorn bucket,

the Rocky Shoulder Buddy, the aforementioned, and then the helmet. Maybe it's the same at all the theaters. I'm not sure. The helmet popcorn bucket. That is what I've seen. Listen. Great stuff. Yeah.

I said I'll take a large cherry. I see in a small popcorn. So that's just a couple. Not a few, but a couple. Comes with a large popcorn. I said, great. But then I didn't put the popcorn in the popcorn buckets without cleaning them. Should we talk about this movie?

That's my question. No shoulder buddy. That's the, that's the reveal. I'm pretty crushed. Before we started recording, again, if you're watching this on video, our buddy Press and the Rat is with us always. And Arjuna was saying we should get him a friend. That's right.

And I was like a little Rocky over there. And I was like looking for rocky marsh that we could put there. Will Rocky in this like pile of fake moss actually be discernibly rocky? Or will he just look like? Or will he just look like a rock? Rock. Underlit and like his little arms should be doing this. Well, movie Rocky's like tatted up.

I mean, he's got these lovely like aquamarine spots and his beautiful bands and his like electric accordion arm that he can, you know, he's just, he looks fucking great. Let's talk about that. Morales. Let's talk about the film. Hobbes and drag is at Gmail.com. If you have a line on like a great. A great Rocky that we can sort of put over there in the moss.

I'm curious. Oh, man. All right. Deep dive. Not as deep of a dive as usual, honestly, because we have our interview today and also, you know, we're seeing this in theaters. We're not like able to chronicle every single line of it as we sometimes are, but we're going to talk about a thing that we love and that's fun. Let's start with the minds behind the movie, the creative team. If anybody did not either listen to slash watch the Martian pod or has not heard us talk about this on a hype draft or any of the other 900.

times in the last couple years that we mentioned how excited we were for this movie because we love the book. What is your relationship to this book and Andy Weir's work in general? Like what is it that you love about Andy Weir's stories? I just find them, they're a delightful read. I would say for me, an even more delightful listen. There's something about the patter of his main characters that just really lends itself to the audio space.

And particularly this, I've been like singing the praises of the Protite-Till-Mary audio experience. but particularly experiencing what they do for the Rocky audio inside of that space is really, really good. So yeah, I just find his books, you know, I love like Terry Pratchett. Like there's certain like, or Douglas Adams, like smart comedy genre books. And I would put, he's obviously much more scientifically focused. There's a lot of the science that just goes right over my head. And I kind of let it just kind of buzz in the background a little bit. but just fun, funny, smart doesn't like talk down to you.

And then, you know, the beautiful relationships that are inside these stories. I haven't read Artemis. Me neither. And Andy will make a reference to that in our interview. But the Martian and Project Hill Mary have read and really enjoyed. Yeah, same. I quite enjoy both The Martian and Project Helmeri. Project Hill Mary is my favorite.

It's the one I read first, actually, and then... read The Martian after. I, yeah, like, I just think he, I am also not a scientist. And the, I like, really love sci-fi as a genre. This is, his books are hard sci-fi. There's, like, a lot of information in there on the scientific front, the astrophysics, the math, etc. And I think that you can calibrate your relationship to that as you go for sure. So if anybody's like, I'm inclined to try it, but is it going to be too much?

I think the way that the both film adaptations, the Martian and certainly Project Hill Mary, calibrate the volume of that and distill it down to its essence is like really masterfully done. I do enjoy being able to like try to learn a little bit as I read, but I never find it to be a barrier for me, which is great. It's still accessible even though there's a lot of it. I think that his like wit and the charm with which he writes, obviously so much of which is just captured brilliantly by Ryan Gosling with this performance and the embodiment of grace, which is just really delightful to watch. You know, these books are funny. Like, they're really, really funny and they're really entertaining, and there's a lot of levity injected into what is always, whether it's something like how will Mark Watney get off Mars, or how will we figure out a way to thwart astrophage and save the sun so that we don't enter an ice age, right? We talked about this with the man on the marsh pod, like the fact that there's a mission and a quest and a time-sensitive thing and a clock that we're working against and there's that propulsive engine to the plot.

but then a really endearing central character who is in some sort of really dire circumstance and then the reason that Project Hail Mary is even more to me memorable than the Martian which I did quite enjoy the friendship that you get here. There's a little guy. There's a little guy.

Is he on my shoulder right now? Nobody is a little buddy. Emotionally. Emotionally. He's always on your shoulder. And the structure too, like, you know, we have in the Martian the logs which allow Watney to talk to us in a smart way. The cuts back to NASA, which he is not a part of.

I think that's also something that works better for me in Project Hail Mary because even in the flashbacks, and we'll talk a little bit more in a few minutes about some of the slight distinctions and how those are deployed on the screen compared to the book. But Grace is still at the center of all of it, so he's really truly the through line and the beating heart. It's just really memorable tales and obviously very ripe for adaptation. I got into a little friendly disagreement once again with our pal Van Lathan in the coffee shop this morning about the Martian versus Project Hill Mary. And I like, I prefer Project Hail Mary. As a film as a film. Okay. I prefer Projecteal Mary personally. I don't know if it's just because there's like a old guy. But like I'm less, you know, in the tank for little guys than you are. But like. Well, I mean, I just think that like. Your Grougu slander establishes that clearly.

But I just think that I think there's just, he's just like perfected. Something that. He did so well and The Martian is perfected here. Van loves The Martian. He says he rewatches it all the time when we actually got a ton of emails from our listeners when I asked on the Martian pod, hey man, do people rewatch this movie? We got a ton of emails from our listeners being like, yes. But what was consistently true for all of them, and Van admitted the same thing was true for him is they don't really put it on.

It's just on. I guess it's on a lot on TNT and something like that. That's not how I watch TV anymore, but it certainly was when I watched Shawshank Redemption one million times because it was just on. The original concept for the rewatcher. was actually this, you know. What's on T&T. If you see it and you're like, I must stop because it's so rewatchable.

Right. So the Martian has that quality for so many of our listeners. They were all like, how dare you? You know, even our producer Carlos, like, as soon as you've done recording, he's like, I've seen The Martian one million times. But Van was talking about how he felt the concept of the Martian is like leaner. I'm like, yeah, it's a leaner, meaner machine. I agree with that. Project Hill Mary has like four different endings to a certain degree.

You know, like that happens. That's all true. I just think as a movie, the, emotionality is deeper, I think. We love a character on an arc. Like, Mark Watney doesn't like learn a ton about himself.

I mean, he does. He's confronted with like surviving by himself. Yeah. But Mark Watney was always like a smart guy and a heroic guy, right? What we learn about Rylan Grace and like who he actually was by the end of this movie and then what the decisions he makes. That, we love a character on an arc stuff, is much more impactful to me.

And then I think also, I strongly believe, and I alluded to this on the Martian podcast, perhaps too much. But, like, that Damon's great in the Martian, but Gosling is such a better fit for Andy Weir's humor, Drew Goddard's humor, and then guy rattling around alone in space or a little guy with him in space, you know, like Gosling. And, you know, not to underestimate the contributions of Lord and Miller, because there's a lot of, there's,

there's the guardrails of the book. It's a very faithful adaptation, even though it's like missing a bunch. It's a very faithful adaptation. There's the guardrails that Drew Goddard put in place of like how to adapt an anti-weer novel. And then there's like Lord and Miller's fondness for improvisation. Yes.

Which is true in all of their projects. You know, Spiderverse, they talked about like not really even having scripts sometimes and just like Lord and Miller would just like slap post-its in the sound booth in front of people and be like, try it this way, try it this way, try it this way to find the right one. in all the descriptions of how they made this movie. There's just all of, like, Drew Goddard would write a joke and then he would say, and then they'd spend 45 minutes just, like,

trying different versions of it. So that, like, improvisation, no bad ideas on a brainstorm. Find the funniest version of this. Gosling loves to do it. He did it on Barbie. Lord and Miller love to do it. And James Ortizu will talk about

who voiced Rocky loves to do it. He comes from live theater. So it's just like all of that's in the mix to create something just like, a bit more special to me than The Martian ever was. Would you call it a brew? A brew?

Let's talk about Goddard and Loretta Miller a bit more here. Let's start with Drew Goddard because he is also the screenwriter and adapter of The Martian, but of course that film was directed by Ridley Scott of yad of him. Why is Goddard such a

perfect adapter of and translator of the weird text? like being able to distill it down to its essence without actually diluting or diminishing it. I mean, I'm not saying like everyone has to listen to all of our podcasts, but I'm not sure I have any more revelations than what we talked about on the Martian podcast when we asked ourselves this question. But to repeat it, I will just say, like, because he worked on Lost, Ailius Buffy, like three of my all-time favorite shows, got was trained by essentially. Actually, you know what's funny is the way that Drew Goddard got his job on Buffy was because he was running a survivor pool in the office. And Marty Knoxon, who was a producer on Buffy, like, was part of it found him really charming as like we should we should have this kid, Drew, come like do some stuff with us.

So like he talks about that all the time how like running the survivor betting pool in the office is like how he got his first writing gig on. More win for Survivor. You know? I was thinking about Survivor a lot actually because. Welcome to Survivor Corner, our weekly Survivor Corner on The House of Our. Listening to Tyson and Riley on The Pot of Spoken this week talk about like how those relationships are formed on the island, how it's like such an intensive. Like you're only with these people for X many days, X many weeks, however. But it's like you've been with them for years because you're in this sort of intensive situation.

Same with Rocky and Grace, right? Anyway, point being. Final two, you know? Drew, yeah, exactly. All the way to the end. Who wins? Rocky. Probably, yeah.

But I think that Drew's like that Whedonessk patter, which he doesn't fall into sort of like, Rob and I talked about this little bit on the prestige pod when we were talking about the Buffy reboot. And it's just sort of like, there are some people who have like tried to imitate the Whedon pattern. And it just sort of feels like an empty echo of something. And then there's just like Drew who is sort of like born from it. know. And so it just like, it works really well, that kind of energy, that kind of back and forth. He never loses the comedy, but he also never loses the emotionality. Like, emotion is so important to him in what he does. And he talks, he's talked about it when he talks about Projecte Hill-Mary,

they're like, again, if the science is confusing, but the emotion is clear, then people, we won't lose people. And there's that Joss quote we read on one of our Buffy rewatch podcast where he's like, make them cry, but then by God, make them laugh. Like, that's the ethos, right? So, like, don't be afraid to be sentimental, sappy, all this sort of stuff like that. But then, like, hit them with a joke. Yeah. And that sort of back and forth is my favorite speed to meet a story in.

I really beautifully put, and I really agree. And I think, like, this particular tale and character set and circumstance lends itself so wonderfully to centering and showcasing that blend of impulses and instincts. But then it's also like, okay, why does it work effectively inside of a two and a half-ish, two hour, 40-ish minute movie? But it's like, well, why does it work, period? Because that's life, right? Like, that's the experience of knowing somebody and going through something traumatic

and then figuring out a way to pull yourself out of it. Like, watching when Rocky has to leave his habitat, knowingly imperiling himself in order to rescue grace because it is that important to him. And it's not just risking the pain to that he, like what he is going to be inflicted with in that moment, the agony, the anguish. It is risking. Will you ever get back there? Right. And so it is such a meaningful and horrific thing. And I like really vividly remember my just abject terror reading it for the first time and how worried I was. And like the ability of the film to grip you and destroy you and tear you apart, even though I knew that it was going to be okay, is an incredible thing.

And there's like the fact that you are watching grace agonize and worry and shed these tears and you are going to have them press their heads together in their version of a hug and just feel the depth of that devotion. It's beautiful. But like the hug happens, but then it slows like, and then inside of that moment, Rocky's like, how are you? How long do we do this? How do you know when a hug's over?

It's fantastic. This other thing, like Drew, I don't think we can overstate what Drew is accomplished here because the book is fantastic. There's incredible bones to this story. Yeah. But it is what he is described as like a Scriminator's nightmare, right? Because it's like you've got a character alone for a long time. Yeah.

That's really hard to write. You've got all this scientific jargon and like he stripped out a bunch of it, but some of it like still made the case there. right? And then he meets someone who doesn't speak English. So there's this like language barrier part of the script. And then there's also like, we'll talk about

sort of the challenge of building Rocky, but like a character who cannot emote with facial features. So like the language has to do a lot of work there as well. So like a screenwriter's nightmare, but like a challenge that he relished and spent a really long time on. I, the kind of

version of that that Lorda Miller had directing. They talked about this a little bit with Sean on the Big Pick. Everybody give that a listen if you haven't yet. All of the terror, the fear that they felt when they were reading the script, the treatment for the first time, being like, damn, this is going to be hard. Like, studios are going to be scared of a co-lead who doesn't have a face, right? But also, like, the sets that you're going to have to build.

And, like, okay, this is going to have to be a puppet because we want. Ryan Gosling to perform with a real tangible being, not a tennis ball. I'm paraphrasing like what they said to Sean on the pod. And Andy talked about that a lot with that too. And then in the process of then having to figure out how to do that, you end up with magic. So yeah, we got to chat with Andy about the rocketeers, right? That was the five puppeteers who are actually there. And like if you're a nerd, a movie nerd, a genre,

story nerd, you're hearing Andy, you'll get to hear Andy talk to us about this, hearing Lord and Miller, talk to Sean about it, many other interviews out there. Like, I kind of almost just on reflex, like we started thinking about Yoda, right? And empire and like the connection to something almost sacred here and how you're in

reportedly. So like Neil Scanlan, who designed Rocky and also designed the porgs and done a lot of great work with Star Wars, et cetera, I get really excited whenever I see Neil Scanlan's name on like a creature design. This is like what, James Ortiz has said in interviews that Neil Scanlan said to him, right? He's like, you're Frank Oz and I'm building you Yoda.

What a cool thing. And they built it collaboratively. And also, in one of the interviews I read, I think it was the inverse interview with Livy Scott. I think Livy's observation was like that comp is so apt, not just because Yoda is such like an indelible creature and all of this, but like when you think about Luke alone on Dagobah and how Mark Hamill talked about how important Frank Oz was for. for making that a successful sequence because otherwise it's just like Luke alone on a swamp. Well, and then to your point about just like...

With all in respect to R2, R2 is also there, obviously. Sorry. Don't get mad. Stop writing an email. Frankly, good save. Stop it. Good safe. Delete, delete.

It's like, you know, the only what you take with you idea as well in terms of that arc that Grace is on and like what is he bringing and what is he piecing together and slowly unlocking about his history and his choice. and then what does he do with those insights once he is able to stare at them and confront them.

And, you know, Lorda Miller, Roshan also, they talked a lot about, like, studying more recently because obviously, I mean, we're decades away from when Empire came out, right? They talked a lot about studying Dune, Villeneuve's Dune more recently. And, like, when we left our first screening with Sean, like, we were all obviously talking a lot, like, close encounters, which you already mentioned, 2001. You know, this story is at what. once so fully realized in specific and utterly itself in a way that just I think delights us as fans and nerds where it's like this will be a thing that people are talking about for a long time. It's like, Project Tell Mary, you hear it, you know what it mean. It evokes a sound. It evokes a feeling. It evokes an image right away. But it is so stitched into a tapestry and to a history,

right, into a legacy of these not only like sci-fi stories, but stories of exploration. There's a space film grammar that they are like fluent in. You know what I mean? That you can see inside of this. And this is why it was like so fun for us to do like this face film draft or whatever and revisit all of those movies. I also want to like on the creator front, I want to give Ryan Gosling the credit because he's the one who first got the manuscript for this before the book was even published. He got the project he'll marry manuscript. He called Lord of Miller, right?

I'll let Andy talk about why Drew Goddard was like the only person he wanted as a screenwriter here. but Ryan is the first person who was attached to this got Lord and Miller. Yeah. Where Lord of Miller go, I don't know the exact order of operations, but like where Lord and Miller goes, so goes Amy Pascal. Amy Pascal is a producer on this. Amy Pascal also producer on the Spider-Verse movies. I'm just like hugely always reading for Amy Pascal post Sony leak, but something that like, because she was ahead of Sony and then the Sony email leak hack happened.

I've read a ton of those emails because I had to for the book that. I wrote, but it feels like such an invasion to read these people's emails. But what is true about Amy Pascal is that she was always a huge Lord and Miller fan. She would write about them constantly, like, what can we do with them? What can we do with them? What can we do with them? She was a huge Drew Goddard fan. He was going to do the Sinister Six for her.

Like, she has been Drew Goddard champion, Lord of Miller champion. I am so happy for her that like Spider-Verses paid off for her. She did Little Women. She had challengers. She's just like been making like Pascal productions. And now she's going to be on the James Bond movie. So, like, Amy Pascal, like, from the ashes, sort of rise for her. A strange woman parodied in the studio by the great Catherine O'Hara, like, absolutely.

But, like, has a great eye for talent. And so, like, the Pascal, Goddard, Loretta Miller, Gosling, Andy Weir being quite involved, which he'll talk about in our interview with him, like, that whole mix is so important. But I just, like, I love the timeline is that, like, all of those people were in place before the book was even published. And that's like people, people optioning the rights to a book before is published happens all the time in Hollywood. But like having the whole team in place.

That's wild. That is like extremely rare and very cool. Really, really awesome. Part of that improvisational spirit that you mentioned manifested in the James Ortiz of it all. because this performance that we got is real, is a performance, right? And they built the spaceship. Like, they built that set in full. So this stuff is happening practically around gosling, and they're moving and they're responding to each other.

And they're setting up wires to figure out, is this a zero-g scene? Right. Is the centrifuge active, right? Like, these are not CGI green screen sequences. This is something that was rendered in full and being able to respond that in real time to, like, what was that unlocking about the performance and the chemistry and the relationship. That translates to something significant and palpable on screen. Absolutely. And, like, again, I don't, I just don't want to, like, completely, I have this, like, bad tendency to, like, jump on interviews that happened at the end of the podcast.

So I do, like, I want to let Andy tell the story. but like he didn't talk about a lot of the specifics of the puppetry, which as you know, I'm always eager to talk about. You love a puppet. Like, so there are multiple rocketeers like operating the puppet. The puppet was created in conjunction with James Ortiz, who is the lead puppeteer and the voice of Rocky. He's a theater guy. He recently did Audrey 2 in Little Shop of Horrors in the Little Shop of Horrors revival. So he's been doing like theater puppetry.

This is his first film ever. And it's huge. What a film. 10 first. To talk about, like, it was his idea to do the kind of puppetry where it is like all these different guys on rods on individual legs. Right. So they did that for a lot of the movie. But there are certain sequences like when they're in a space where you can't fit. Yeah. You know, all the puppeteers. What you and our notes called the volume, but what James Ortiz called the don't go crazy room.

Yeah. And like they can't all fit in there. So what they did is they had an animatronic rocky. that was connected to a puppet that they were operating off camera. So they would still do the puppetry off camera. And then the animatronic Rocky would, like, do it as well. And then there is a digital Rocky and, like, some of the, like, orb moments and stuff like that. But also James Ortiz talked about how he sometimes would get in a hamster ball, him himself, and run around set and bump into things and just, like, record his dialogue.

I mean, when Rocky's making his grand entrance into the Hail Mary for the first time, like the most enthusiastic cat playing with a new toy and just rolling around, Dirty, dirty. I mean, he's going to like, I just, I think this is one of the greatest, like, on-screen creations that we've ever seen. It's really sensational. Like, this is a quote he gave, I think, in that inverse interview, and I just thought it was so beautiful.

There are so many times that we have a job where maybe only 30% of us is invited to work. Hail Mary is the first time of my career where 100% of me was invited to work every day. Me as a sort of sci-fi nerd, me as a cinefile, but also me as a improviser and puppeteer and sort of team leader. So I just like, I just think this is such a cool thing. And yeah, like, we'll talk a bit more about like how the physical sets that they built and all that sort of stuff like that. But to make it feel as real as possible. Yes. Is just a huge account. In a space movie with a critter co-star is just like an incredible

accomplishment of this movie. And this is why I'm always advocating for puppetry. I think it's just like, makes a huge difference. Like, is there a version of this with CG Rocky that could have worked? Maybe. But like, I don't know. I just think there's something so special about a puppet.

Put it on a t-shirt. She's always thinking about puppets. I am always thinking about puppets. You're also always thinking about music. Anything about the score or the needle drops that you want to hit from the just kind of like broader creative tapestry of this film frontier?

Soundscape is really mesmerizing. That was the first thing that like, you know, the three of us were really animated to talk about when we got, like we were literally walking out of the dark in theater talking about the score for this movie. Daniel Pemberton, amazing. Slow horses. Hell yeah. You know, done some great work on slow horses. What do you think Jackson Lamb would make of Rocky? I think he'd be delighted by Rocky. Honestly, I think it would melt even Jackson Lamb's heart. I agree. And certainly the way that Jackson Lamb slurps noodles, he would have no feedback for Rocky when Rocky finally needs to ingest some sustenance. None at all. You know, Daniel worked with Lord and Miller on the Spider-Verse movies. So he's like worked with them for a long time. But he also, he sort of similar to, I think Dune was just like, you know,

Greg Frazier, who's a cinematographer on this movie, worked on Dune. So Dune is like a huge inspo around the clock. And one of them is Han Zimmer sort of like really went for, and his team, went for like a lot of unusual sounding instruments to sort of create this. alien sound inside of the score for Dune. And Daniel Pemberton used the glass harmonica, which you play by, get ready, rubbing wet fingers and spinning glass bowls. Rubbing wet fingers and spinning glass bowls.

Okay. I'm intrigued. The glass harmonica. The crystal basket, a French instrument that uses metal rods and glass to produce sound. Okay. And the Ande Martinin. One of the earliest electronic, it might be Andes martinot. I don't know.

But one of the earliest electronic instruments invented in 1928. Um, coral, a lot of choral music. And Daniel Pemberton's, uh, intention was to design music that sounds like it comes from a place where humans haven't been. Right. You know? Right. But the use of the coral is so interesting. And especially like in the needle drops, when I went to go see this with my nephew and my sister, my nephew had this like big reaction to one of the music, one of the songs. And I was like, afterwards, I was like, why were you? You sort of sat up. And he was like, oh, I learned that in Spanish class. Like, there's a lot of, like, needle drops from around the world involved in this

because this is a global effort. There's a lot of non-English language music used in, you know, alongside the Beatles and Harry Styles and stuff like that. There's a lot of that. So I just like, did you have a favorite? I know you love dad rock. Was it the Chris Christopherson? Like, what really delighted you? The Neil Diamond?

How to, what did you most enjoy? Off brand because I barely engage with contemporary music. But I think because Strat at karaoke was just such a fucking wallup of a historic scene, it was gorgeous. I was like weeping the second time around again. I guess sign on times because it was just such an incredible, incredible scene that really, really, really gops back to me. I loved it. I can't wait to talk about that more. I got really emotional.

I mean, I always love a Beatles needle drop because they're always incredibly expensive. so it means that they like really wanted this song. And like to have a Beatles needle drop when the four Beatleships set off back to Earth. Our little probes. John Paul, George, and Ringo set off back to Earth was great. Two of us is actually, the song that they play is a song that I sang senior year with my pal Liz Glar as part of like our like senior farewell showcase. We sang two of us. Like that's a song that's very important to me of a very important time of my life.

I actually got, like, really emotional when the, when the, like, percussion started. I was like, I was like, oh, it's two of us. How exciting. And then it's just like, two of us, like, Rocky Island. So beautiful. Ah, that's just absolutely wonderful. I love to. We're learning a lot.

You can share a lot of musical history about yourself lately. This is a gift. I was a singer. I don't have as much of an ear anymore, but I used to have a better ear and I used to be a singer. You sang very memorably on the Martian podcast. Memorably. I didn't watch that social. video clip because I don't want to know what it sounded like.

I did. I was like, Joe sounds great. Just like when you revealed your masterful artistic renderings on the recent Valentine's Day special. The other thing about just the soundscape of the story, obviously, you know, we have all of like tech sounds and everything. But Rocky, you know, the journey to discovering and choosing Rocky's voice, which we will talk about when we get more fully into the Rocky Grace relationship in a bit is obviously

a hugely crucial part of the story in the film. and again, very amusing. But Rocky is musical. When he is just emoting through sound, that is how he's obviously moving and conveying a lot with his, the expression of how he moves his limbs and how he moves his body, but he's using whale song in essence. And so it is very simultaneously, like,

I think Rocky is very cat-coded and really reminds me. And just the bond, they form this idea of, like, What if you couldn't actually talk to someone, but you had the deepest connection that you've ever experienced with any? It's really like Rocky really reminds me of Halo. But like the, he really does. He really does. He also, and I've made a similar comp to like the beeps and boops with the droids to relationship with, you know, a beloved cat before. But like it's also very droids beeping and boopin.

Like you, if you have a bond with your droid in Star Wars, you will. are communicating in full with them through the little beeps and boops, right? So on the one hand, I love that they're like learning to understand each other through the miming and the mimicry and the pointing and the tapping. Great, you're not tapping, you're pointing, Bip. Name me laugh. Great stuff. Really good. The puppets shows. It's all just wonderful. One of my favorite Gosling deliveries in the movie was like, that's a big ask. That's a big ass. It's all great. but so you have these beautiful, you know, like, oh, what's your mate's name? And it's just like listening to sounds from the depths of the ocean for 45 seconds.

And so do I love that we get to hear Rocky speak eventually? Of course. But the fact that you can understand what he is trying to convey before you put human words against it is actually really the point, right? As is the point of being in a position where you. recognize and understand that a barrier, like, that doesn't have to be a barrier. That's obviously one of the great takeaways of the story, right? And we'll talk about that too. Like, we talked about this with Andy. I think this is like something we've been, that we love about the book and have been anticipating about the movie is it's just like on that hope core front,

that's true in a lot of ways, right? We can save our planet. We can help each other. But also, like, whether it is that global effort on Earth that you mentioned or this bond, this relationship that Rocky and Grace forged, it's like you are looking at somebody who's different from you and that doesn't matter. It can be the most beautiful connection and relationship that you forge if you choose to try, right? And I just think that that's like a beautiful message in general and obviously what right now in our deeply fucked up world that we need? These capital T divided capital D times that we find ourselves in. Yeah. It's just lovely. Eric Adol is the name of the sound designer. He also worked on a quiet place, which is a very quiet movie, but also the

is very important in that. But, like, yeah, though the whale song for Rocky. And also just like, and also that goes back also to the puppetry design because, like, when he's singing his mate's name and he's, like, quivering with the emotion and adoration for her. That's inside. And we're touching the little mark. That's inside the puppetry and inside in this, like, performance of, like, let me get

her beautiful name. Right. Let me sing it for you. It's just gorgeous. Adrian, absolutely just iconic. Really funny. Psychotic. Really funny.

All right. Mistakes, the tones. We've talked about, you know, the mission, petroviline, astrophage, killing the sun, every other star, except one. And so we had to get there to find out why that's not happening there. And if there's something we can learn about it that can help us save Earth. Because the temperatures are going to drop. We're going to head to an ice age.

The crops are going to die. the animals are going to die, the people are going to die, all because of what's happening, but also because we're going to tear each other apart, right? Chilling moment, obviously, in the film when Strat is talking to Grace and is like, and that's if everybody agrees to share and to ration and guess what they won't. And I think that's a really crucial aspect of the story, too, that that is a necessary acknowledgement of the fact that the inclination to team up and work together is like not always how it goes, right?

Well, the fact that it belies, so this is how it goes in the novel, which I really love this section of the novel, right? So, like, she says in the novel, no, you don't know, because it gets a lot worse. And then Grace says, worse than half of humanity dying. And she says, of course.

LeClerc's estimate assumes all the nations of the world work together to share resources and ration food, but do you think that will happen? Do you think the United States, the most powerful military force of all time, is going to sit idly by while half their population starves? How about China, a nation of one?

1.3 billion people that's always on the verge of famines in the best of times. You think they'll just leave their militarily weak neighbors alone? I shook my head. There will be wars. Yes, there will be wars. Thought for the same reason most wars in ancient times were fought for. Food. They'd use religion or glory or whatever as an excuse, but it was always about food, farmlands, and people to work that land. Very dune. Yes, quite. But like, yeah, that is so important to stand in contrast to to what Rocky and Rylan find with each other in space. Yeah, and on the contrast front,

and, you know, obviously this is a reveal to us in full over the course, over the progress of the novel and then the film. But you have the people who are part of this mission, right? There's the three-person crew and then their backup. So these six people who have made a choice to go on a suicide mission. It's a one-way ticket. They're not coming back. They're going to send the Beatles back.

They're going to send the probes back. But they're not coming back. And for grace. In the book, there's a bunch more fucking before that happens. There's a lot more. I was glad we got at least the, like, kind of cheekphrase and cozying up at the karaoke party. Yeah. And the great little conversation between Grace and Strad about like, oh, people are working up.

Well, you know, like, they're seeking comfort before the end. But yeah, there is a lot more fucking. The fact that we glimps earlier that Grace is like, why would, this is like unthinkable to me that you're doing this thing. right? And we get the, well, you just like need someone to be brave for. And then we are building toward that. But you have grace as a character who is emotionally inclined and empathetic and positioned right away as thoughtful and entrusted with the care of other people. He's not ever selfish character. So this is another kind of delicate dance in the story. Like, you know, with the students, obviously there's like the utility of him explaining something.

some of what is happening to children who will be terrified. Also, the audience. But yeah, to us. Yeah. The children in the audience. I'm smarted by a 13-year-old. Yeah. Wouldn't be the first time great line in the book.

But, you know, yeah, like using the 13-year-olds, his students as like avatars for us, wait, I'm confused, what's happening? What do I need to know? How bad is it? How quick is it? What clock are we on? But one of the passages in the story that I've always just loved so much is, so it was So I just can't see because I'm like going blind and really need glasses.

Have I mentioned that today? So it was that with the apocalypse looming, possibly caused by an alien life form, I stood in front of a bunch of kids and taught them basic science. Because what's the point of even having a world if you're not going to pass it on to the next generation? And this gets to another thing that we've been talking about across space month that you've been, you know, centering and identifying is really crucial. And it's very present here in the story where science, not just a scientist, but like a science teacher, who, yes, has been cast out by his academic peers and fellow researchers who thought that his ideas and his disposition were not appropriate, right?

Well, you don't need water to be a life for him, et cetera. You know, the idea that he had, like, made a mockery of himself in the halls of knowledge. But then he's like, he's a science, a middle school science teacher, and he's going to be the one who saves the world. Rocky is a mechanic. Like, he's an engineer. And so the idea that you have like intellect and ability to like think about how to solve a problem and like try to interrogate what is happening in the world and figure out a solution. These are our heroes.

Yeah. It's just really, really cool. There's, um, you know, because astronauts are very cool heroes as well. Mark Watney's a cool hero. But like the fact that like, but like this is what this is what Drew Goddard told Ann Thompson for Indy Wire. He said, quote, I love watching competent people do their jobs. And his mom was a school teacher. we're not doing a story about the world's greatest astronaut.

We're going to start with a school teacher's point of view on a core level, quote, the school teacher saves the universe, end quote, sounds preposterous and yet felt so right to me. And I was thinking a lot about, like, I mean, the fact that it's our main character is a school teacher. Yeah. We love teachers. We support teachers. We love scientists.

We support science. The, I was thinking a lot about the superhero era. You know what I mean? Like, we're in a really cool era for big films that are, that are branching us outside of the superhero era. And you and I love the superhero era. We cover those movies with, like, love and affection. But it is fun and exciting to see your dunes and your Dooms and your whatever else the case may be that is, like, a big giant spectacle that isn't necessarily tied to this idea of might equals right. That's not all that Marvel had to offer specifically, I would say, like, the Stark and Banner

Science Bros part was like a huge part of like why Marvel was so endearing. But there is fundamentally often this comes down to like who can punch the hardest, right? And that's just like, and essentially that is what the Atradis force is trying to do, which is punch the hardest. But like what this story comes down to is there's not going to be a third act big fight. The fight is going to be internal about your own. what can I do and who am I inside of all of this? So, like, this is not to denigrate superhero movies. I love them, but we love diversity of storytelling.

And I love that this is something which, like, you're not just your intellectual abilities, which is a very important for Rylan to figure out, why am I here, what do I need to do, how do we fix this? Yeah. And for Rocky to figure that out as well, Rocky being like, you're pretty dumb. I have some great ideas. That's the best. But also that emotional journey to empathy for.

for Rylan, which is something that is revealed a bit at the end for people who haven't read the books and haven't seen the movies. But upon rewatch, knowing that we're watching this character, access emotional heretofore unplump depths inside of him. Like, Riley and Grace is such an interesting character because, you know, I think we did get, I did see some comments for people being like, how is someone as hot as Ryan Gosling? Like, man, I'm just not good with relationships. You know, and I'm like, well, hot people can be dysfunctional too, but like, but wouldn't women be trying harder to access the closed off man that is Rylan Grace? But like, whatever it is about Rylan that has made him sort of

like, you know, we hate Mark, like, have this relationship go awry. I think it sources back to you when you watch that scene when Stratt first comes to find him and you alluded to this, like, wants him to join this project and he's like, no, not me. You know, he's like in a full panic because this public shaming of his intellect is one of the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to him. And there's something, actually no, I know a few teachers who are like, actually the kind of, it's like, it's like listening to Noah Wiley to talk about Dr. Robbie on the pit where it's like you get to have these great interactions with people and then they like move on. So you're like their favorite science teacher for a year. and then they move on. And so like there is this like intimacy there, but then there's just sort of like there's an end point on it.

And I only have to let you in this for. And also you're a kid. So you're not going to ask for like greater access to me than I can afford to give. You know, so Rylan Grace has all these like sort of hallmarks of a closed off person. But he doesn't even know that that's who he is necessarily as he lets Rocky in and closer and closer and closer in this extreme circumstance that they find themselves out stranded and. space together, you know. I love that. And like, the fact that he, with the research paper, you know, was shamed and was rejected, but like he bet on himself and it didn't work. Yeah. You know? And that's like devastating. Right? Like, it makes sense. I mean, I think it makes

sense just to be afraid, just to be afraid to go to space and try to do this thing and no, you're not making it back. That feels very human and relatable to me. I think we all like to think that we would be like, sign me up, I'm ready to give it all for everyone, but like, would everyone do that in the moment, right? This test, like, when you're in the crucible? I was thinking of our, makes me think of our guy Vassaris, you know, chunks of his body falling off and, like, saying to Linaul, like, you know, I wish I had been tested, like, maybe I would have like,

and then Linal says back to him, like, most people who are tested wish that they hadn't been, right? And that's like one of the truest things out there. So I, you know, I think that one of the really, like, boy, I mean, every scene with Stratt is really good. I loved when Stratt said to Grace, like, don't pretend this is about your students. It's so insulting. Because, like, calling out the, like, don't use these kids as a shield for your cowardice

felt like the thing that she would say in that moment. But then you have something like in the book, Rylan looking at the kids in the classroom and being like, man, they're generous. is the sixth extinction event. Oh, no. They're sitting here and we're talking about this, and they're like, 30 years, that's nothing. Everybody thinks that the thing in the future is not their problem,

but for the kids, it's not about, like, shirking the responsibility, like, of an older generation saying, like, I don't care what planet the younger people inherit. It's like they can't conceive of that passage of time at what it would mean to have nothing left by the time they basically reached, like, the bloom of adulthood. But he is there and knows how precious every moment is. So he's looking at them and he's like, it's already gone and they don't even know it, right?

And so is he using it. Yeah, but is it true that he cares about them and wants them to be okay? Yeah. This is behind my theory about the generational admiration for interstellar. It's a different experience. Yes. For people who are younger than we are, like, you know, yes, I grew up knowing the phrase the ozone layer, but like it's just different.

No question. For people who are just sort of like looking at the math of like how much time we have left and being like, oh shit. Yeah. Oh, fucking shit. I love Stratt. Tell me. Sandra Healer is just like incredible in this role.

And they, I think she's the biggest change from the book. Yeah. Characterization-wise, I think the word they use is more humane, made her slightly more humane. But she's still very like, I believe that she was. would be the person leading this project. It's interesting. I relayed this story to you. I won't call them out.

But a member of my family, not my 15-year-old nephew, who I read the book, was like, I pictured her much younger and hotter. And I was like, ugh. And then I was like on Reddit. I saw someone else, like, wrote the same thing. Like, I really pictured Stratt younger and hotter. And like, Sandra Hiller is like 47. She's described in the book as mid-40s.

Like, like, at the, the, It's like one person on Reddit and everyone was yelling at him. So this is not like representative of a larger argument necessarily. But like he was like, well, there's this like sexual tension between her. I pictured Anya Taylor Joy. And I was just sort of like, you wouldn't trust the salvation of the world to 20-something year old Anya Taylor Joy. Like, are you kidding me? Also, Ryan Gosling and Sartierhuler are like the same age.

his beautiful wife is five years older than Sandra Hiller, actually. So, like, I think the, like, frisson of sexual tension that exists between these two characters, like, around that sign of the Times performance, like, when they're having the conversation out on the deck. Like, it's, like, there, there's this thing there that is not, like, purely raw sexuality. It's, like, emotionality and power and intellect and all these other things. wrapped into one. Yeah. And I just think that like

Sandra's performance is so funny. Yeah. Like she's so dry. She got so many laughs out of me. She's so funny. Scary. Do it faster. Great stuff.

Convinced when she makes her decision at the end of the flashbacks. Like to do what she does. Like it's believable. But it doesn't make you on rewatch hate her. And then you get this moment, which is, you know, as you know it in our notes, you're like additive to what happens in the books of like her many years later at the end.

I loved that was added. You know, like I just think, I think the use of Stratt in this, in this movie and the choice of this performer who, you know, has been incredible and everything she's ever done is like, it's slightly unorthodox, a slightly unorthodox choice, but like just the absolute freaking banger right choice. I agree. Like really elevates the movie to something special for me. Yeah, I thought, I agree. I think she's absolutely sensational and really just, like, commands and holds every scene that she's in. And I think you're exactly right. Like, you believe that she would be the person not only who can do this thing, which is compel people to participate in this and unite and align toward this quest.

And like a lot of the specific details of what needs to happen are not in the movie. And I think pacing-wise and stuff like that in terms of how often we're cutting back to Earth, it makes sense. Like, we don't spend a long stretch, for example, talking about. where do we need the land for all the solar panels? Or the greenhouse gases. Yeah, but like you have to understand that every single person who was partaking in this most essential and urgent of undertakings is all, everybody is doing this under her oversight and vision.

And like the staunch conviction that it's worth trying. I love the like, and this was obviously in the trailer, but like you Americans call it a long shot, right? Ah, hell Mary, I got it. Okay. But it's not just about like what is the ship going to be called and the mission called in the book and the movie called. It's like the acknowledgement that this is an impossible undertaking, but like let's find a way to make it possible. And then the fact that it is not cold, like that there is a unceasing and unyielding commitment and determination but not a cruelty to your point.

I think that is that's really the essential element because like. And hard to nail. Yeah. I don't think of her as like she's not unfeeling. Yeah. I think, you know, but she's just like, I've been tasked. I have to do it. With making this impossible choice, these impossible choices.

And like, I, I'm not feeling sorry for myself that it is my choice. Right. I'm taking it on. I, but like, it's an intergalactic trolley problem, you know? And she's just like, she's someone I would trust to solve it. Yeah. But it's not a decision I would want. I would not want to be in charge of those decisions.

Yeah. I love that we get both sides of like Grace asking her. I'm basically saying to her, like, it must. be really hard, you know, to ask people to do this thing. She's like, it's not actually, because how can it be hard practically, logically, logically, rationally, if you know what it is for? And it is clearly right and worthy, right, and worthwhile. But when it comes time to tell him, okay, I'm not trying to convince you, actually, I'm explaining to you why the thing that's about to happen is about to happen. She's like, she's like quivering because they have. have a connection. I agree. I thought that the chemistry between them was really electric.

And again, even though I know how the story goes when I was watching them out on the deck before we watch her sing and then watching him watch her sing. I'm like, are they about to fuck? Absolutely so good. But it's more about like, I mean, it's the sexual. And that's commented on in the book. Yes. Yes. Is it a sexual draw there? Yes. Is the same thing there for them that is there for other members of the crew are like, okay, well, we are like the only people who understand this thing that we're a part of. And also it's maybe all about to be over either if you're on that ship or if you're not, because who knows if it's going to fucking work, right? Like, connect and love each other while you can. Yeah. But there is like a respect and an admiration that they feel

for each other. And so that's just, I think, really beautifully, wonderfully captured. And it makes the idea of sacrifice. Like sacrifice is always more effective when it's presented to us as something that we understand to be true tangibly. Like, it's interesting as a concept when it's an abstract, but this is a person she has grown to care about. And she has to say, I'm not giving you a choice in this actually at all. I'd like you to make a certain choice. But if you don't, it doesn't matter. You're going anyway, right? We have to feel what that means for her, and we do. And we have to feel what it means for him on the other side of it. And then to watch him piece this together and understand this thing about that.

himself. This is just incredible. And like, Gosling on the other side of those moments, conveying such a sense of like terror and despair. But then later, shame. And you know, like something that, you know, we were trying to explain to Sean that I don't think is like quite clear in the movie is the way in which these flashbacks are coming to him in real time as you're watching it. Yeah. That he is remembering what happened in real time. So the flashback that reveals that it was not his choice to go on the Hail Mary is something that he is learning for the first time in that moment. So like earlier when they're talking about bravery

or all this other stuff like that, like he has to assume he signed up for this mission. Yeah. And to find out via excavation of his own memories, which is, you know, again, I don't think the movie quite nails that sort of idea. When we see him sort of hunched over himself, that's him processing like, oh, God, oh, no, this is who I am.

Yes. I'm someone who is too afraid to do the thing that I, that was asked of me. Yes. And it's so impactful. The sign of the times karaoke, not just because I love a musical moment, but just sort of their shared conversation without language, like similar to Rocky and Riland, like this just sort of like conversation of looks that they have. Apparently it was Gosling's idea that she sing because the actress herself likes to sing and she's. said she would only do it if she could sing sign of the time. So like she picked the Harry note. Like she picked the Harry song, great. That conversation they have, that's my favorite, but my second

favorite moment of the movie. And I cried both times is when Carl says, you know who you are. Right as, as Grace is passing out. You know who you are. Yeah. You know. And like you might not believe in yourself, but I believe in you, Strat believes in you that you can do this. Man. And it's just like, Yeah. Oh, to have someone tell you that. I know. You know? Dude.

And like, then you think about the whiteboard. Not just like, I know who you are. You know who you are. It is in there. It's in there. And like, then you think of the moment where I look at the... So, Gossling wakes up on the ship. Yeah.

Right. This... Great physical comedy stuff. Flippity flop and around. Really good. The set design is incredible. The costume design is incredible. Like, all of the production elements are wonderful.

His performance is hysterical. Wigwatch. Incredible. Wigwatch, incredible. Wigwatch, go. My goodness. Beard watch. very satisfying when he cuts through the beard.

But like, so in the text, I mean, here it's clear he doesn't know what's going on or who he is. And the text, it's like those triggers to the memory, it starts quite memorably where he's pulling and he's falling and the catheter rips out of his penis. Yes. And there is a trail of blood across the floor and the red line triggers the Petrovna. memory. And so there are all these descriptions in the book of like, I remembered it all at once. It just kind of showed up in my head without warning or my subconscious wants to tell me something. I think it's clear at first that he's like, you know, he wakes up. He doesn't know who he is or why he's there, right? So like, that's clear at first. I'm just not sure that the movie did a perfect job

of helping people understand that he's discovering all of that in real time. I definitely think it's much less clear in the film that that is what's happening. And we've had some people just tell tell us that oh, I didn't know that's what was happening. But I also think it's like a little bit less, I don't know, obviously his like memory coming back is it's clear that he wakes up and does not know everything. But like the extent to which that is an essential thing that he is trying to overcome is just a little more central in the text. And some of that is obviously very like, it's very funny. You know, he'll say a thing or do a thing and he's like, what kind of weirdo am I?

Like, why do I, why do I say fun? Right, right. I'm a teacher. I know Liberia uses some purely units, but I don't know my own name. That's irritating. There's a lot of comedy that comes from it at first. But the reason that... Am I smart?

Am I smart? My smart is a great one. But the reason I just brought us up here is when you're talking about Carl, it made me think of, like, one of the first things that he writes down on the whiteboard, as he is trying to piece together in the film, like, the complete sense. of who he is. Who am I and what was my life? Why am I here? Carl? Right? And so the fact that like, is that like, is that about like the Skittles and like, we're fathers, Carl and like, are you sitting down and all of that, which is like really charming and wonderful, obviously. A memorable trip to the Home Depot, whatever it was. The lows. I don't know. That looked like fun to like, you know,

play basketball basically with the shopping cart. That looks great. Bowling. Some bowling. The bowling with the aluminum foil. All wonderful. Is it about all of that? Sure. They shared a very memorable thing together. You know, do we have an expense account? No, but I do. We know. I do. It's definitely that last moment, though. It's the fact that Carl is a person who's like, who said the most important thing that anybody could have said to him. It's like, who's Carl. Oh, Carl's the person who told me I can, I know who I am. Right. And there's a level of something inside of him, even though he doesn't know his own name that knows that matters. And that's just like incredible, right? Also, always muscles. Like you said, the heart and the humor all there all at the same time. Great story. Joanna, let me ask you a question about on the heart front, because that's like the humor, the heart, all of its here.

Space friendships. Why do we love a friendly alien? You know, what is it about a friendly alien that is so compelling to us? Is it that we don't want to be afraid? We want to know that we don't have to be scared. Do we love a friendly alien? You don't love E.T? I don't love E.T. I love A.T. I don't love E.T. I don't love E.T.

So you want to be, you want to be scared. No, I like the gamut. Yeah. I think sometimes you will be scared. Yeah. And sometimes it's just Jeff Bridges wants to have sex with you. That's Star Man. You should watch it. You know, so like... Indeed. It could be all kinds of things. Oh, my gosh. Indeed. It could be. It could be all kinds of things.

But I do like the idea that, like, you know, when... And it's played to great. comedic effect, but when Grace first sees another ship, he's like, ah, you know, like and tries, shittily drives the spacecraft to try to get away from them, you know, like, really funny. But like, yeah, his first instinct is like, whatever this scary looking craft is, must be terrifying, yeah. They're here to hurt me, you know, and then the lesson is like, no, and you have to learn to trust this person via taking your helmet off or whatever, you know, going down the thing, opening the canister that has been sent to, all that stuff.

All that stuff. It's played for laughs, but it's also just sort of like, yeah, he's fearful. And then it's just, and then like, it's a huge,

both times we saw it. It's a huge, drum scare when Rocky first, like, his little hand, like, first shows up in that, in that one little window in the rock wall,

you know what I mean? It's like, you know, and it's like, played for, for fright, you know? But like, I mean,

Rocky's incredible. But like, yeah, you want to believe, it would be lovely to believe that if we met intelligent life in the universe, it wouldn't be what's, describes, which is not just like the U.S. superpower and it's like militarily inferior

neighbors, China or whatever, it's like this planet and their intellectually inferior neighbor's earth, you know, would we be conquered, would we be colonized, would we be decimated, like what would we be? Right. What if we could work together? Well, we got to talk to Andy about this, and this is obviously not just present in this story. Like, well, what if we not only worked together but became the dearest of friends?

Something he just is, it's like almost like a foundational belief of his that informer. his work and how he thinks about the wider universe. So that was a fun thing to get to hear him talk about. Because you mentioned the ships moving in tandem in that space dance, which of course makes me think of Wally Space Dance. Here's another great space dance with the ships instead of Wally and Eva. What was your favorite visual moment in the film? Is it that?

Is it something else? Do you have like a top tier? This is the one that stands out most powerfully in your mind now? I do have one. Tell me. But I do I want to talk about Greg Frazier for a second

Greg Frazier The cinematographer on this movie as I mentioned worked on Dune and the Batman Um

So Miller like took to Twitter to clarify something that they said at Comic Con right

which was like we use no green screens in this movie and people like what the hell you do mean you use no great screens

on this movie right so he tweeted this, right? They went to Adrian. Yeah, they went to space. Don't worry about it. Chris Miller wrote, some clarification here. No green screen doesn't mean no VFX. There were in fact thousands

of VFX shots of the film. 2018 shots, to be precise. Green screen is something used in lieu of building sets or figuring out locations, lighting in advance, which can be noticeable if not done carefully into something we didn't want to do. We built, as you alluded to. We built the entire interior of the Hailmanary ship, but within

the ship there were still wire and puppeteer removals and ceiling replacements, etc. And Ryan is outside on the hull of the ship. Because when I read this, I was like, what do you mean? No green screen. He's in space. They went to Adrian. We shot him in the front of a black background for space and a shifting hue background

when we used up against the aurora of a planet, which allowed for truer interactive light on him than a green screen would. The wide space exteriors and spaceship shots were entirely digital and beautifully done by ILM. Rocky was a seamless blend of puppetry and animation from Fram Store and other great work from many more. It really does take a village. we had the best of the best on our side.

So like, and then they've talked about, like, Chris Miller on Twitter has talked about how the process of how they shot this, which is like a process that Greg Frazier has used on both Dune and the Batman, which is shooting it digitally. They shot it in letterbox for flashbacks, like widescreen for flashbacks and then IMAX for space, like bigger format. So the ratio changes in the memories versus when you're in space. depending on where you see the movie. And like, but they shot it digitally. They transfer onto film and they transfer it back digitally, which just like sounds like an insane process. But as Chris puts it,

adds warmth and texture to the final format. So you get this like, though it's shot digitally, it has this warmth and texture to it. So like this movie, from the intentionality of the set deck to everything else, the fact that I think it's, is it, I think Charlie Wood is the production designer, but the way in which they built the ship

to have all these different like panels and monitors and different languages because Hail Mary is the production of like many different space programs working together so they sort of cobbled the spaceship together from all these different places. So like there's this patchwork. It's like a metaphor for the whole story

is the patchwork of the ship itself. The way that they, you know, much like the way they made Joseph Gordon-Levitt, you know, be able to run around a hallway in Inception. They're on a gimbal. They're turning the set. You know what I mean? There's like, and Lord and Miller talked about how, this is a long way to my answer,

but I will give you an answer. But Lord and Miller talked about how working on Spider-Verse. Yes, sure. Inspired them to just sort of like move the camera wherever they wanted to move it and move the set wherever they wanted to move it. They wanted to add this level of surreal reality to everything. So like places on the spaceship would have like chairs on the walls. or, you know, when Rylin's writing on the whiteboard and then, like, the cup is magnetic on the side, you know what I mean?

It's because, like, the ship might turn in a different way and the room is still usable from a different angle. Like, all of that stuff is really cool and really inspired by the both Spider-Verse and Cloudy with a chance of meatballs background that they have an animation of just sort of like we learned, especially in Spider-verse. Like, you know, you think about that final fight and into the Spider-Verse where your camera's just going all over the place. some reality is like blurring everywhere and the audience is just with you. And so they're just sort of like, take that ethos over here. All that's to say, I'm actually going to pick the moment when Grace is outside the ship and they flip to the Petrova setting. That's an like indelible movie moment.

Combination of score, sound, visual effects, performance from El Goncito, Ryan Gosseling himself is just like, you know. It's incredible. Just awe-inspiring. Yeah. I thought that the ship dance was really cool, and the predator retrieval sequence was obviously very cool and very harrowing. But I agree.

It's the shift to the Petrova, that light frequency, that cam, and just the actual gasp that you admit when you see that, when you see the screen go black and red, or kind of pink. like, incredible. And we're prepared. We've seen like glimpses of that. So we like are prepared for that on a small scale to know what that visual means. Yeah. But to, for his entire world.

Yes. You're seeing it on a monitor. You're seeing it on a microscope. But then it's our whole, it's the movie theater that you're in. It's a really immersive and meaningful and cool way. And I love that like the idea that it is like a visual version of the way that the science is explained to us. where you just kind of inherently that understand something. I thought that the kind of like side shot that we got of the river almost of the light was really cool.

But the front, like when we're behind Grace and he is just surrounded by the dots, by the, by the astrophage in the light, it's just really, really awesome. And also the way that that is like a depiction of a thing that's killing multiple planets and species. Right. Well, you know, like it's the astrophage. That's what it is. And it's. Beautiful. Yeah. I mean, there's like an annihilation kind of quality to that, right? Where something that is like so haunting and disturbing and is tearing people and places apart is like, what if it were beautiful flowers or like coral reefs? You know? And the idea that that nature is astonishing in both its beauty and its terror, right? And like, yeah, I mean, you know, astrophage is like a even just the name and like it's a little more present in the book, Grace kind of naming it and then goes to back to school and like his students say it and he's like, how do you know that? And him kind of, oh my God, I said the thing to Stratt and then it went to the president and then went to the media. Now they know it, right? And the way that these things are understanding and the way that we communicate about something forges in real time. But then sometimes it is just like you see it.

Yeah, Riley and Grace, welcome to the news cycle. Yeah, exactly. Or like when he's, you know, the first time that he realized it's a cell and he's trying to see through and then, you know, the moment where he kills the first cell, but like that exchange in the book, it's like So you poked it with a stick, right? So you poked it with a stick. He's like, well, yeah. You know, it was great. It's just wonderful.

It took that long to figure out to poke it with stick. Yeah. We talked about the flashbacks already in terms of just what they kind of unlock structurally. Are there any other moments that we actually see in the flashbacks that you want to hit that we haven't yet? I don't think so. I think they kept it like really nimble, really legible about what was going on. I think if I had any Well, I guess I've already

Critiqued it slightly But I will just say Our favorite Ken Lung is here Barely But not enough Barely Not enough

I know That guy's one of the funniest guys ever And so like You know And they he's saddled with a bit of an accent And it's like a whole thing So like I would have just loved

A better deployment Of one of our great comedic actors Inside of this I would have loved more of him as well. He's a delight. And in general, I think a little bit, I mean, I assume that there was more. And this was once an over three-hour movie. Yeah. And some of that that we lost, maybe those moments down on Earth with the crew. But not only would it have been fun. I mean, I did, you know, I love the little moments that we get when Grace, who's, you know,

again, trying to understand who he is, but who these people are, these dead bodies that he discovered. Do I know them? Right. Who are they? And you get some great, moments in the movie where he's looking at, you know, the photos of Yao's family. And he's like, you make a funny face in every picture. And, like, he doesn't remember that yet, but he's trying to honor this person and give him this moment. I cried. The second time I watched it, I cry during those burial scenes. Yeah, it's really lovely. The Kremlin. Yeah. He's like, badass. He's like, badass. He appeared to me. Yeah. Stubb you appearing to be sticking to the Kremlin. Very funny, very good. But in the text, this is one that always hits me so hard. He, it's dawning on him.

one of the memories that's coming back, we were a lot more than friends. Because he finds himself, he's seeing, looking at them or seeing their names, and he's like, he just starts crying. Like, his body is responding to something that is buried inside that he hasn't unlocked yet. And then there's this passage. We were a lot more than friends. And team isn't the right word either. It's stronger than that. It's on the tip of my tongue. Finally, the word slides into my conscious mind. It had to wait until I wasn't looking to sneak in. Crew. Yeah. We were a crew. and on all that's left, which is like, first of all, I think a really lovely way to kind of like honor the genre, the idea that crew could be more than like team or family in this context

because crew is the holiest thing, right? Lovely. But also that Grace is in a position where he said, no, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to do it. And it wasn't because he didn't love these people. It wasn't because he didn't care about them. It wasn't because they weren't in it together, right? And that just feels more kind of layered and nuanced and true to like an experience.

then, oh, I'm not going because I don't give a shit about you or if you're okay. It wasn't that at all. But because Rocky is also in this position where he is alone. And everyone he came with died. And he doesn't know why. And Grace helps him understand and piece it together, right? And the idea that Rocky can make anything and in an instant and figure out a solution to any problem. And he'll figure out the habitat. And he'll, you know, obviously incredible when Grace at the end asked to go to see his ship. and Grace has his version of Rocky's bubble. He's like, I'll make the chain. You know, we'll figure out, why is Grace dumb? Grace is not usually dumb.

Why is Grace dumb question? But he didn't understand what happened to his shipmates. He didn't understand what happened to his crew and that this is a shared pain and a shared trauma. To understand what the characters, what the other characters in Grace's crew meant him, having even a couple more moments with them would have heightened that further.

I think so. And, like, how that's communicated inside of the, like, Rocky needing to watch Rylan's sleep the best you know which is played for comedy when he's just like

right on top of him and something like it's really good but it's also just sort of like he does you know and like grace doing that like dragging all this stuff

into the tunnel because like he lost his entire crew I'm a side sleeper anyway yeah it's really good oh my god do you know what line

in the book makes me cry the most tell me I saw like a baby during a lot of the book because it's just really beautiful and their relationship

means so much me, but when they do separate and say goodbye, before Grace makes his choice to go back and save Rocky, I drift off to sleep. It feels wrong to sleep without someone watching. Because like this whole time, he's like, what? Yeah. But then of course, when Rocky is healing, he's like, I'm there. I'll be watching it. He'll be watching. I'll watch you. And then it's like, it has become a thing. You hear the tap tap on the glass? It's like it's become a thing. It was foreign to him. It was alien. It was different. It was not something that felt right to him, but it becomes a share. Form this culture of two. You know what I mean? This culture of two that involves, you know,

Rocky watching the Rocky movies or like when Rocky has like a Project Hail Mary had, like, that killed me to bear with. He's like, it's a celebration outfit. Well, not just like the celebration outfit, but also just like the ball cap. Like, you know, it's like a cultural exchange. You watch, you watch me sleep. I wear your weird clothing. You know what I mean? Like, So they're creating a culture of two. You're a... Two of us. You're a big...

You love an ocean vista. I love an ocean vista. You're a par crevice, but you love an ocean vista. People know it about you. How did you... How would you grade Rockies? I'm in the Hail Mary version of the volume, surfing form.

Hangton! Oh, yeah. Let's pretend I know anything about surfing. I've watched... You're not a surfing enthusiast? I would love to surf. Well, what should we do first? Learn to skateboard or?

learn to surf. I think one will actually help us lead us into another, and one involves falling a couple feet to concrete, and the other involves falling into the ocean. So I think we should try skateboarding first. My new landlord is a surfer, and I was asking him, I was like, how old were you when you started surfing? And he was like 45, and I was like sick. So, damn, it's possible. Did you ever boogie board? No. I used to boogie board when I was a kid, and then I got hurt once, And then I got scared and then I stopped. I love to watch the surfers like in the Bay or in Hawaii. And one time when I was living in Hawaii, I don't know if I told you the story, but there was a like a tsunami warning.

And like that was so bad that they like evacuated like all the people down below. And we lived up the mountain. So people came up and like spent the day with us. So like that. But we were right above Waimea Bay and you could go out and look and there were like surfers out there riding the tsunami waves. They're like chasing a hundred foot wave. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Do you watch 100 foot wave? No. It's good. Okay. Gorgeous. Like, I mean, first of all, just a kind of fascinating psychological study into why people feel compelled to chase something like that, even though they're so, it's so dangerous. It's really, it's a really interesting sports doc and also nature doc and travel dock.

The scenery is, like, unbelievable. I think it's really sweet that you asked me if I watched a sports doc because I think you know that I. But you love the ocean, so maybe to you it's just a wave dock. I will say this. This is jumping ahead, but at the end, when Grace is essentially like living in Big Sur, it made me like, he's living on a foggy beach, which is honestly my number one ideal habitat. And here I am in Los Angeles, and it's like 900 degrees. It simply could not be warmer than it is right now. So it made me nostalgic for the Bay Area to see the foggy ocean for sure.

I thought the biodome looked amazing. I mean, first of all, it's just one... They're working on the temp of the ocean. They'll get there. That was really funny. He's like, you know, it's just amazing that they did it. Yeah. Just amazing that they did it all.

But very reminiscent of when we walked into the studio for the first time. And I was like, just amazing that we did it at all. But does the AC work? Does the AC work? Is it functional? Still going. Is it? That's great.

Yeah. I love seeing the cliffs in the biodome and how they kind of match the, like, you know, the veining and the colors and the rock. That was all really cool. And the ocean looked wonderful. And the fog in the air, beautiful. Thought that Grace's living quarters looked great. Once again, it really just looks like something you could rent on Airbnb for $9 million a night in Big Sur.

Should we go to Air it? If Sweden wants to pay for us to go to a Big Sur retreat, you let me know. I went to Big Sur once and it was died of. Oh, yeah. Big Sur's the best. But to stay on one of those like cliffside, like mostly made of glass houses that they have on a Big Sur, that's a spendy. Great, great bookstore cat up in Big Sur. Should we just mention now that there's one crucial change in the story, which is that...

I think the most important adaptive change, and I did ask my nephew if he missed it, and he was like, I think it's better they did it. Yeah, yeah. So, Rylan Grace, you know, they've made an atmosphere in which he can function. So he goes to save Rocky. Yep. Knowing that he will not be able to live, believing he will not be able to live on the planet. And he does not have enough food to last him. So, like, he's like, I'm going to save Rocky and all of Rocky's people. Right.

I'm going to send the Beatles back to Earth so I can save Earth that way. Probes. Yep. Probes. And then I'll go save Rocky so we can save Arid, but not for, I'll save the Shire, but not for me. Right? Like, he doesn't get to do it. And it has been saved.

They figure out a big sur habitat for him. And then in order to solve the food problem. Got to make some hamburgers. They made, they clone his flesh and make him. burgers out of human flesh. I called them me burgers or whatever. My nephew's like, oh, actually, I mean, it's just cloned meat. I was like, sure, but that's still fundamentally a burger of you. Mallory Rubin. Here we go. Yeah. If you had to survive and the only way for you to survive to get the protein that you need

is for your aridient friends to clone meat and make it into a burger. Yeah. I'm just going to assume that you're going to do it. You're going to eat the burger to survive. Would you rather? It's me meat. You meet or me meat? Mallory Burgers or Joanna Burgers? Could we do both for some variety? Yeah.

Well, like, or maybe like Tuesday night. On 6040? Okay. It's just a sloppy Joe night. Please. Don't say sloppy Joe. I present it. We're just trying to like, you know, maybe, I mean, it's just me.

We can make, we can make tacos one night. Meet tidy mal and sloppy jail, listen. Messy mail, there we go. It took me years, but I did get you to admit that you would eat the meat of your friend to survive. If I were a member of the yellow jackets, if it were me, I would simply not eat part of a friend. I think we just established that you would. I think in this circumstance, if I'm like on my plane crash, I'm stranded in the wilderness, I have to turn to cannibalism or I die. I'm probably like, I bet I'm pretty unhappy here anyway.

Erid seems pretty cool. I think I'd want to stick around. I'd want to get to interact with... Well, I said in Yellow Jack is beautiful. Trees? Yeah, but there's a lot of, like, who did Misty poison the soup. There's a lot of shudging buckets.

I would say one time shitting in buckets is too many times. There's shit in the bucket. We have rules. We have house rules. God damn it. Erud seems cool. So I'd want to figure. You got a way to stick around.

Flesh burgers. You think they, there's no other option. They all seem so smart. There's nothing else to do. Too bad he sent his pals out to be buried in space because surely you could harvest those corpses first. I don't know.

They looked pretty, I mean, I guess you could use the bones to make soup. Us a marrow. We're not talking about the physical flesh. We're talking about cloning them. Yeah, but then, you know, after you clone it, aren't you going to use the original material? Make a soup? No?

I don't know. The truth is I'm not around long enough for any of this to be relevant. I die right away. I'm one of the dead bodies. That's true. My coma went poorly. I would probably not have brought bags full of vodka, but maybe I would have had some like sour ale that grace or in this case you could have enjoyed after I left. What would you have put me? I would love to buy you a shirt that just says my coma went poorly. I think we all know. My coma went poorly. What haven't we hit on the Rocky Grace team up that we want to discuss? Anything else on the design front we talked about, I guess the ship, the ship in the tunnel, the Xenonite, the way that was all rendered on screen, just astonishing. And we should say that when we went to Comic-Con, your first Comic-Con, we were in Hall-H. The vast.

And they did this really cool thing in Hall-Age that I think we probably talked about when we did our Comic-Con episode, but I'll just discuss again. Like, sometimes in a Hall-Age presentation, they open up the sort of monitors on the side. of the hall. And so we were surrounded by like blueprints and photos of like the tunnel and the ship and all of the work that they had put into. Remember like them talking about the light,

the light rats, you know, like that they had to like I do basically warm the planet in order to like create the light that they needed in order to light the ship. So like I just think it's incredible. Also in the design of Rocky, I mean you mentioned the tats, but also So it's like a, I think it's like, I'm going to get the puppetry terms from it.

Please don't kick me out of the puppetry club. It doesn't exist. But if it did, I would want to be a part of it. But anyway. I think you would be the founding member. There are, treasurer? There are literal puppeteers. Sure.

I'm a mere enthusiast. Isn't that how fan clubs work? And I said the pubity club. That's true. I assume you meant fan club, but you meant. Of puppeteers. The proper club. Like the magical castle, but make it puppets.

I retract the comment. Rockie was like a shell, a printed shell so that the light could like come through and make his rocky, tatted skin look like translucent, like skin. Very cool. It was so sad when he had his wounds, you know, because he smokes. And then he's like a shrieking smoking sound. Oh my God.

Yeah. It's like ink, you know, bled splotches. And like scarring. It still looks beautiful. Grace has his scarring on his arms and stuff. Face still look perfect, even though he smashed it into his screen. It still look great. Listen.

Must be nice. Must be fucking nice. That filler's doing his work. Another Rocky visual that I thought was really well done was the echo look. Because echo location is in general something. We come to understand, you know, how is Rocky seeing? We get to see through what Grace looks like to him a couple times. Rocky Vision.

That was cool. And like, you know, something like the clock moment where, again, it's a really simple way to help us understand what the texture, how Rocky, quote, quote, sees and sees the world and how it renders him and what Grace looks like to him. But then when Rocky makes his little scanner so that he can visually render on his little sound wave plate thingy, it was at his end of the technical term. And again, that connects to like grace in his class. I think he just got kicked out of the Rocky Club. Oh, physical. No, no one can kick me out of the Rocky Club. Frankly, I won't leave. I won't go. Sorry. I am in my bubble ball. I interrupted you doing sound waves.

Sound waves. What? Your hands up to do it. Physical. I'm not getting much sleep lately. Blips, early blip bit, that was great. The first blip coming really fast. And it's like, oh my God, it's going to be a bomb.

Yeah. Just like, bing. He's like, oh, I guess Mary we both have that made on our face. That was so funny. And then blipsy comes much more slowly. I was like, why is so slow? You think some dumb. Which.

Incredible. What else? Let's see. On the learning to communicate from, do you think they should have gone with Meryl Streep's voice? Would you have chosen Meryl Streep's voice for Bug if you were choosing a voice for your cat? What would you do? Would you have gone with the French voice? Merrill's voice is much too warm for my incredibly mean cat. I'm going to meet, I'm going to meet Bug.

And Bugs are going to be very. mean to you. I love her. She's nice to me except for when she bites and scratches me, but she's really mean to everyone else. But if you, but if anyone, as I said to you already, if anyone can charm my cat, it's you. I don't want to put too much pressure on the, on the meeting, but cautiously optimistic. We'll see how it goes. And I wish you look. I wish you good fortune of the Great Wars to come. Thank you. Yeah, Chris's favorite Threns moment. There you go. It's wild that my first association now with that reference is Chris Ryan. I don't know why.

He's an enthusiast. He is. What else? Let's see. Hmm. Oh, you know what else I loved? They're kind of like, because they're bonding, right? And they have this shared pursuit and this shared purpose.

So there's the mission aspect. There's a genuine affection and enthusiasm. There's a comedy. There's all that. I got a real kick out of the new roommates, like, getting a little tired of each other's sequence for a crisis. The real world confessional is incredibly good. Yeah.

Who is Grace talking to? This killed me. That was great. And then, yeah, the choices they both make. You know, the fact that Rocky, Grace has kept something from him, which is, I'm not going home. And Rocky is despondent because he loves Grace. They have become friends. He doesn't want him to die.

And he says, you know, like, it couldn't fix. what happened to his crew. Can fix this, right? Can fix. It's just like it hits so hard. When his little hand comes up to like flip the switch that Rylan like just could not reach. Oh my God. Sweet little Rocky and his little whims.

Here's a quote from James Ortiz. Which very much underlines what you said about these divided times, right? Mm-hmm. We are craving stories about connection, about seeing past differences, and also things that are full of love and color. There's a reason why those things have existed for such a long time, and that's something that I'm going to try to keep chasing. I love it. I do find this to be truly an inspiring story, like genuinely, and what they're willing to do for each other, what they're doing on behalf of so many other people, the fact that Grace has this moment of recognition about not having made that choice and then doing it anyway and Rocky, not only like, because Rocky's like, all right, we have the great moment earlier in the story where he reveals

his mate, how long have they been together we hear this number and Grace makes a joke right, honeymoon phase and Rocky's like, it's not enough, right? Like they could have these really long lives but every moment with the person you love is precious. Rocky and Adrian. Rocky and Adrian

we ship it. Rocky telling Grace that he will give him the fuel to get back to Earth cost him years. Six years slower return to his mate. Yeah.

Everyone on Arid who is waiting to the foggy ocean for this rescue, for the future biodomes that they might build and the me burgers they might make. So that's a, that's a sacrifice, right? And then of course, Grace having his moment because the like condominate moment, the Taumiba. Does you ever play portal? Great video game. Like, condominant. The cake is a lie. The cake is a lie I'm aware of.

Yeah. Great video game. It's a fun. It's fun with like, now I'm probably too old. and dumb and slow to figure it out. But back in the day, I can barely get up in the morning. How long before I record? But we're going to learn how to surf and skateboard?

Yes. I don't think I'll excel it either. I'll be honest. We're going to get you a lot of padding. And it's going to be great. Oh, the back. It has breached the vessels, right? And so there's a lot more stuff in the book about, first of all,

how they bred the nitrogen-resistant strains. we go through a pretty extensive and exhaustive process. It's like kind of summed up with a quickness here. Used Rocky's breeding tanks. And that was wonderful. And also there is a problem, which is that Rocky's ship is made of the Xenonite that they have learned how to breach.

So Grace finds a way. It does. It does. And Grace is like, okay, I found that person who I'm going to be brave for. Right? I am going to go make sure that Rocky is. is okay.

And like that moment when Rocky comes back to the tunnel and realizes he came back for him, it's just amazing. It's like so moving. Oh my God. It's just really, really, really touching. So I love that. And then, of course, like at the end, not just have we talked about the house and big sir and the me burgers, but also just sort of this idea of like, hey, like, you could go

home, right? And Rylan being like, let me think about it. Let me think about it. He's like, yeah, take a long time. Think about it for a long, long time. That's so good. I really, really love that we got, we already alluded to this, but that we got to see Earth because that is a adaptive choice.

Well, yeah, in the book, there's like, hey. Jeff Probes went back. Jeff Probes went back, but also there's, like, reports that the Sun, you know, the Earth's Sun is back in action, right? Yes. Like, Riley Grace gets, like, news that probably. It worked. Right.

But we're not seeing the reality of Stratt on the, in the frozen ocean. Yeah. You know, like how bad it got before this information came back and how long it took based on her fairly well-done old age makeup and wig watch. Yeah. Looks sensational. Nice way to show us the time has passed, both the planet and on the person. And yeah, you know, you get a little bit of a end of sunshine-esque, spoilers.

Like the brightening of the sun, you know, visual, which is nice. but like I just loved getting to see, not only just to know definitively, but to see her receive this, right? To see her watch these logs and know that they got to see Rocky is really cool, but also like the pride, like that Grace did it. Like she made the right choice.

He was the right person. That little figurine that is of him that she now has this little Zena Night. Fellow merch lover. Rocky. Rocky, because who made the puppet? Fellow puppet. I mean, we knew Rocky was the best, but damn.

But also Stratt loves merch, apparently, because she put that Funko pop right on her dashboard. She did. She's got her Riley and Grace Funko. She really did. Anything else that we haven't hit before we get to our interview with Andy Weir? Let's get to Andy. Okay, let's get to it. Our conversation with Project Hail Mary author, Andy Weir.

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We're here with Andy Weir. What a thrill. What a treat. What a joy. Exactly. Exactly. We don't even need sound treatment now on the podcast. We're ready to go. We're very excited to have you here. We are huge fans of your work, of the film adaptations, of the worlds and the characters. We have a lot we want to get to today. I wanted to start with hope. Hope. Connection. What a concept. Yeah. You know, let's start with the small, easy stuff.

Sci-fi, great sci-fi, can often be a lens into... an eternal experience, a moment in time, and the Rocky Grace connection is such a wonderful beacon of hope. And I think especially right now, for people who've read the book, for people who are going to be coming to the story for the first time through the film, in a moment that is like very defined by division, it is really a beacon and a reminder of how looking past differences and finding, forging a bond and finding a connection with somebody who might be different from you can literally save the world. I think it is like incredibly inspiring

and I think it's going to be like a real source of inspiration for people who see the movie. So I'm wondering how when you were crafting the story in the first place, like how much was the desire to center that kind of lesson and that kind of message? Part of the thrust of the story you wanted to tell, how much of that emerged in real time,

what do you hope people carry with them after they read the book or see the film in that respect? Well, I wasn't really trying to push any specific idea or agenda or anything like that. When I write, I never have like an overarching moral or ideal behind it. I'm not trying to teach you anything other than maybe a little bit of science. I'm not trying to change your mind on any political issues. I'm not trying to affect you or make you think about anything in the real world.

I want to, when people are reading my book, I want them to be able to escape reality for a little bit. And when you're done, all I want you to do is put the book away and say, that was fun. That was a good use of my time. That was fun. So there's no real overarching theme or secret message here. But I do, I will be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna. I have a very high opinion of humanity and human nature. I think we are an inherently good people. And I do think that the default state of humanity is cooperation, collaboration, and getting along. And it's very easy to get a negative view when you look at the news or whatever because you see all this negativity, all these bad things happening. But just remember when you're watching that, the bad things are on the news because bad things are newsworthy. They are rare. You don't report things that happen a thousand million times a day. That's not news. So if somebody trips at an intersection and breaks their leg in a city, seven or eight people gather around, pull them,

out of the road, call 911, wait for an ambulance, maybe get the guy some water, ask if there's any relatives they can call. A bunch of strangers will come together and help that person. And you're not going to see that on the news because it's so overwhelmingly expected and ordinary for people to do that that it doesn't even register. It's like the vast majority of people in that situation would do the same thing. It's automatic. So I have a high opinion of humanity and cooperation. I mean, I love that. I love that you describe yourself as a Pollyanna. Rylane Grace describes himself as an optimist inside of this book.

So I'm curious. I'm always interested in the author self-insert. Like how much of you is in Rylan? And then what is it like then to see Ryan Gosling play this character on screen? Well, I mean, he's not as handsome as I am. Not quite. Not quite. I mean, but there's only so much.

He can try. He's just a mortal man. No. So interestingly, Rylan Grace is the first character of mine in a book that isn't directly based on my own personality. Mark Watney is just straight up me. Okay, he's just me with all of my, all the things I like about myself magnified and all the things I don't like about myself erased. So he's the idealized version of me. It's great. I'm smart. He's really smart. I'm kind of funny. He's really funny. I'm afraid to fly. I have to take volume to fly. He doesn't have that problem. How do you feel about potatoes, though? I love potatoes, actually.

Yeah. And I actually like disco, so there are some differences. But, yeah, so that's Mark Watney. Now, Artemis, also known as Andy Weir's other book, the main character is a 26-year-old Saudi woman who grew up on the moon. So obviously, that's just like me. Exactly. In every way.

But jokes aside, she really is just like me, because she has all the character flaws that I had when I was her age. I gave her kind of the more of the darker side of my personality. You know, when I was 26, just like Jazz, I was ostensibly very intelligent, yet still managing to make really bad life choices. Like, most of my problems were self-inflicted. Like, I just like I was my— Deeply relatable. The tail is all this time, yeah.

Yeah, I was my own worst enemy. So, although you may not think it when you, like, look at a 26-year-old Saudi woman who grew up on the moon. She is also a self-insertion character. Ryland was the first time I sat down and I said, like, okay, for once, I'm not just going to base a character on myself. I'm going to make a new character out of whole cloth. So I made him, like, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, but I wouldn't consider myself overly innocent, right? I wouldn't consider myself naive. And Ryland is a little bit naive. And he's also not super brave, and he's also like, you know, he's got his flaws. And so I created that character out

of whole cloth. So that's the first time I did that. If you're looking for the self-insertion character in Project Hail Mary, it's Strat. Oh, I thought you're going to say Rocky. And that's less, no, no, it's Strat. Strat is less who I am, but who I would love to be. What about what? Wouldn't you love to just cut through any and all red tape? Wouldn't you like to just be able to just say, no, we're going to do it this way instead. Like you have an objective, you're working toward that objective, and literally everyone on earth has to get out of your way. Isn't that an awesome power fantasy?

With a phone call. Heavy burden, though. Heavy burden. Seems intense and stressful. But it's kind of a cool power fantasy. Wouldn't you like to be able to? And also, she has the luxury, in my opinion, of having an absolute clarity of morality. She's like, this isn't something that is like really you, you know, maybe feel one way, feel another way.

She's like, my job is to save humanity from extinction. Right. And anything I do toward that goal is worth it. Is the right thing to do? Yeah. Real law, Saw Guerrera, Luther, and, you know, clarity of purpose vibes here. Highest praise I can give. You can argue with Saul Guerrera's methods.

You could. Got some notes. With the Rido intake if you wanted to, you know. You have some questions. You can argue with some of those rebel leaders' methods. You know, she was just like put in charge and utilize it. And she herself was even like, yeah, I'm probably going to go to jail as soon as this is over. But I don't mind sacrificing my own well-being either.

Everything's got to go. You mentioned the morality, the sense of morality that strap possesses. You mentioned when describing grace a moment ago the aspect of bravery and how that's obviously a key part. of his journey. That was something that we wanted to ask you about as well because, you know, I think the realization in the book, in the film, for the reader or viewer, but also for Rylan himself, right, is this, like, a dawning recognition of the experience of his own life is coming back into the focus, is an incredibly rich and poignant moment in the story that I think is extremely relatable, much more relatable to me to be the person who was too afraid to do the big thing, right?

And I Joe and I are Game of Thrones Obsessives. We talk a lot about one of our favorite lines from the first novel A Game of Thrones Brann and Ned

Can a man be brave if he's afraid That is the only time A man can be brave, right? It's something that we talk about It's this like heartbeat of a lot of the characters and the stories that we love. And so I'm, you know,

then you build toward this moment where Rocky is in peril. We just love Rocky's much. We were talking about this for a while how stressful that part of the book is. And so you build so authentically. That's good. You build so authentically toward this moment when Grace decides to go, help his friend.

It's so earned. And you understand why he is ready to make a sacrifice that he wasn't ready to make before. Right. And I'm curious why I felt important to show us the main character who in many respects, objectively is a hero, a savior, the person who is going to ensure that humanity can carry on. through the lens of cowardice. I just love that. Well, yeah, that was the core concept I came up with for his personality.

And when you look back at all of his life, you see that his kind of fears and anxieties have driven most of his life decisions. He, like, retreated from academia to the safety of, like, being a middle school teacher. No, none of his kids are going to, like, challenge him intellectually, right? He gets to be the cool, kind of worshipped, cool guy teacher. And, you know, that's a comfortable spot for him. And so, yeah. And I mean, that's much more in line with who I kind of empathize with than the fearless hero. Yeah.

I'm the fearful hero. It's funny because when I wrote the book, I thought to myself, I was like, I would never be willing to sacrifice myself to save the world. I'd really want someone to do it, but not me. Someone should do this. Someone should definitely do this. Someone who is not me should do this. Happy to show up to some meetings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll love a brainstorm. No bad idea on a brainstorm. But what's weird is in the intervening time, my wife and I have had a kid. And so now I have a little boy, he's four years old. And now I'm like, okay, I would die to save the world because he's on it. Right. And so it's kind of strange. Just the way that parenthood changes. you. That's not really the focus of what we're talking about today, but it was just an interesting side note of just how much it, how much it's affected me. I'm like, okay, now

if it was like me or nothing and I had to die to save the world, well, then I would. Yeah. Whereas other times I'd be like, can we talk about this? Well, I mean, that's, I love that part of the book, though, where Rylan is thinking about the kids in his class and their future, even though he doesn't have his own, like, biological kids, like that future his emotional investment in those kids seems so important.

He cares about his students. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you, so there's a moment in the film. We're huge fans of the book. Did you see, you saw the film? Yeah, we did see the film. We're huge fans of the book.

We read it multiple times. Did you cry? Sobs like a baby. Okay, good. She's an easy cry, but yeah. Did you cry? I did. Okay, good, good.

I did. Good. You got us. You got us. You got it. Like me and Drew who wrote the screenplay and Ryan and everybody, he was like, did you cry? Oh, yeah.

So I'm reading the book. And then Joe, we had the privilege of seeing it together and was like looking over at me. Oh, yeah. I was watching her like clutch her chest. Yeah. You know, the eyeballs would start glistening and they did. And they did. They did.

But there's a moment in the movie that is not in the book that I love, which is Sandra Huler's character, Stratt, is singing. And it's this like really beautiful moment that I understand was sort of put in because she enjoyed singing around set. That's the story that's going around, that Lord and Miller were just like, Ryan and Lord and Miller were like, she likes to sing, so we're going to put it in the movie.

Maybe that's not true. But I was just curious if there was a moment in the movie that's not in your book that you particularly, like, really enjoyed watching. Huh. Okay, so now that means I need to, like, think through the movie in terms of, like, not, you know, comparing to my book and then deleting and resorting.

I think I liked the stuff where Ryland shortly after he wakes up, and he still doesn't really know what he's supposed to do, and he's like dancing around with a mop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that wasn't in the book, and that was actually just Ryan. Ryan came up with that. Oh, really? Yeah, he literally went, like, while we were shooting those scenes,

he literally went and got like a mop from the corner of the soundstage and dressed it up, and we called her Moppy Ringwall. And sensational. Incredible. Genuinely, no-n-n-n-os. So that's Moppy Ringwald. Rocky. Yep.

One of the great creations in the history of story. Oh, thank you. I genuinely, I'm the sincere personal favorite. She's being very sincere. Like, I just love Rocky. We love Rocky. A lot of people at the Ringar, our company love Rocky.

Space friendships. Chance meetings, surprising connections. You are not only a creator of great stories, but you're a consumer, right? You're a fan, and you happen for your whole life. So are there stories or relationships like duos, these surprising chance meetings on the road that meant a lot to you when you were a reader or a viewer that on some level, however consciously or not, inspired this bond between Grace and Rocky? Maybe. I mean, the only thing I can think of that's a little bit like it would be like enemy mine. It's a movie with Dennis Quaid and I think Lewis Gossett Jr.

and their Louis Gusser Jr. is an alien. There's like a war going on and they're both pilots and they shoot each other down and they both end up stranded on this planet and then they have to work together and they become like close friends

and stuff like that. Beautiful. So there's that. But, you know, this, I mean, Rocky and Rylan didn't start off antagonistic. Right. Like those two did. Right.

So puppet shows, you know. Yeah. A passion for the arts right away. Yeah, yeah. Passion. You love puppettistic. I do love puppets. I do love puppets.

Yeah, I mean, they had a common cause, and they're both science nerds. I mean, they were sent there for that purpose. So get a couple of nerds together. They'll be like, what can't they solve? Yeah, what can't they solve? And, yeah, I don't know. I just, like I said, it goes back to that polliana nature of mine. So there's, you know, Chichengu, God help me, I think I probably pronounce it wrong, but the three-body problem.

We're just talking about three-bodied. You know, he has a different approach. She has like the dark forest theory. Yes. The dark forest theory is that you can't trust an alien race because by the time you could even communicate with them, they could also be destroying you at the same time. And that is, you know, kind of a bleak outlook. Yeah, sure.

But I don't necessarily buy into that because when I started to put together like Rocky's species, I said like, okay, what are the qualities a life form would need in order to become an intelligent life form, not just an intelligent life form, but one that can make spacecraft, like to get to that level of technological development. And I said, what is the bare minimum you need? What do you need? And I said, like, well, first off, they have to be tribal. They have to, they have to gather in groups. They can't be like bears who hate each other and stuff like that. They have to be in, they have to have a pack instinct like humans too. Right. And that's, well, not necessarily. But they have to have to have a pack instinct where they,

where they gather and cooperate for the greater good of their tribe or their pack. And the reason for that is there's no way that a single entity could develop everything from rocks to space travel, right? So they need to be able to work together. They need to be able to specialize. The only way to specialize is if you have this guy is making shoes, that guy is making bread, and so on. Okay. So you need the concept of a society or you're not going to be able to do it.

it. Another thing you need is you need language. Absolutely necessary so you can convey information from one member of the tribe to another. And so that information lives longer than your death. You know, so if you die, the things you learned are passed on to others. That's why we podcast. Yeah, that's like you're doing this for humanity. The annals of history. It's very important for you. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Anyway, and then the next thing, they need is, and I think this is critically important, is compassion and empathy. Yes. You cannot have a tribe.

Right. And you won't see this anywhere on earth. You can't have a tribe of beings that do not have some form of compassion or empathy or concern for members of their tribe. So, and that's not just, that's not just in humans. That's also in, like, wolves and, like, prairie dogs and everything, everything that gathers together in groups. The Wolf dies with PAC survives. The compassion of a prayer dog. Yeah.

They will cooperate. They'll help each other out. And so you need to have that compassion. So now then to get into science, stuff like that, you need to have a certain curiosity and a desire to learn. You need to be able to formulate hypothetical scenarios in your mind and then want to find out what happens. So all these things need to be true in any alien that you might ever meet. because otherwise they wouldn't be out in space. Right.

If any of those things are missing. So you have an entity that already has a concept built in of cooperation, collaboration, language, pack instinct, empathy. So that to me means it's more likely that if we ever met an alien, it would be a pleasant affair. I love that. That's a compelling argument. I really love that. Me too.

You've really brightened my worldview. My Galaxy View, honestly. I'm curious about, you know, obviously you worked with Drew Goddard before on The Martian, and I'm curious what it is about Drew or what it is about Lord and Miller that you feel like they're the right people to adapt to your work. What have they said about this book that you're like, they get it? They really get it. Well, those are different answers, right?

For Drew, it's just, I know, like, he proved with the Martian, he gets me. He understands, like, what I'm going for. he were kind of on the same wavelength. So I know I felt very confident handing it over to Drew. And when we were, so on The Martian, they just gave me money and told me to go away, and that was fine. But on Project Hail Mary, I'm a producer. Yeah. So I actually had some say on things.

And we all agreed we wanted Drew to write the screenplay. Yeah. And he was not available. He was busy working on other projects. Sure. And he was going to be busy for months. So we said, we'll wait. So we put this entire extraordinarily expensive project on.

on hold. For Drew Goddard. For just so that we could have Drew be our, we didn't have a number two on our list of screenwriters. That's awesome. We waited for Drew. And like, you know, he nailed it as always. So that's like why I wanted, why we all wanted Drew.

Now, as for Ward and Miller, they're perfect for it because we have a Duderagonist in the story that is a five-legged crab rock spider with no face. Right. Who speaks in Whale's song. And it is absolutely critical that the audience love and empathize with this. And everybody knew from top to bottom, from the very beginning, this movie will live and die on how well we execute Rocky. We were nervous. Not like unoptimistic, but we were just like they got to get Rocking.

We have to get Rocky. Right. We have to nail it. And Lord and Miller, with their history of animation, they know how to do that. They know how to do it. And it's like, you don't need a face to show emotion. That's right. need body language. And that's why we had like a crack team of puppeteers. That's the other thing

is just for anyone out there listening. This is the vast majority, like 99.9% of the scenes where you see Rocky, that's a practical effect. That's not CGI. That is a puppet. This is huge for you. I love puppets. I love puppets. The only times we ever use CG for Rocky was when it was absolutely impossible to do it with puppeteering. Like, you know, if he's moving around in an area, where it's impossible to get puppeteers going or if he's doing something that's impossible. But it's extremely rare for there to be a CG Rocky. It almost never happens. Almost every time you see him online, that's a puppeteer.

There was a crew of six puppeteers who had to be in their like ninja outfits, hiding in various places. Some of them underneath the set, some of them up in the ceiling, some of hanging from wires, like doing all this stuff. Parts of Rocky were remote controlled with very advanced servos and stuff like that. It was all amazing. We called them the Rocketeers. Tough to see someone else live in your dream. I mean, really hard, but also the naming, the Moppy Ringwald and the Rocketeers. The Rocketeers, yeah.

Doing a lot of branding on the set. I love it. And James Ortiz was the head puppeteer, and now it's been an outfit. Yeah, we. When we originally did it. Yeah, he did the voice of Rocky. When we originally did it, he was doing all the voice. And we thought, we'll probably get like some really well-known performer.

Merrill Street. Merrill Street. Wonderful. moment. That was actually Meryl Street, by the way. I know. I mean. Oh, yeah. Incredible. But we were thinking, we'll get some. But then James did such a wonderful performance that were like, we're keeping that. Oh, that's great. And, um, but that, that enables things that, like, people don't realize how much actors are part of the creative process. Actors don't just, like,

read the lines and put the appropriate emotion in. They riff. They say, like, they get very, very into the character that they're doing and saying, wouldn't he say something more like this? Or what if he did something more like that? Wouldn't that be more in line with what he's doing? And so there was a lot of back and forth riffing. And you can't do that very well against like a tennis ball on a stick. Sure.

Right. But when there's Rocky, right there moving around, like doing things, doing all the body language, the puppeteers are there. James Ortiz can riff with, you know, in character with Ryan. it's that that's why we got like a lot of the magic of their their dynamic because it's it's two real actors playing off each other and he couldn't just put a voiceover back in and capture that same magic well i mean we could we owe it to the dynamic between uh Ryan and James that's what I mean

that we did that but yeah we we could have shafted James and replaced him with another actor you could have but it wouldn't have been as good what was the call to Merrill like how did how did you get Marilyn I wasn't involved okay that was an off the cup by Ryan. He was just typing there, and they were just saying, okay, now imagine, because we didn't have the things, now imagine this voice plays that voice face. And he's just like, do-to-do, and he's like, Merrill Street, she can play anything. And that was just an off-the-cuff thing. And we were like, can we get her? Can we get her? Are you like, Ryan, now you have to make the call for Merrill. I think it was like someone in the production. I don't know. I mean, I guess

she was willing to do it. I mean, it's not really hard for her to say one line. I mean. She's pretty chill, I guess. She gave us permission. And like, in the early version, it was just somebody doing like a Merrill Street impression. And then, but then we got the real one. I love it. I mean, what an honor to share time with Rocky.

In this era of, like, AI, like doing, like, fairly convincing impersonations of performers, we now have the real Merrill Street pretending to be, an AI pretending to be Meryl Street. As if an AI could really capture. Never. The beauty of Merrill. Simply never. Yeah. Thinking about the rocketeers, the puppetry, you know, this is now kind of a

It's a great Rocky impression you just did. Yes. Well, there's something, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I only did the Heisman. I can't do it really sitting down, but it definitely did the Heisman. Yeah. It was wonderful stuff. I was going to ask you, though, now, thinking of Rocky as a corporeal being and not a CGI insert, harder, but still, it's a thought experiment. let's engage.

You can put Rocky in any other fictional universe and see him engage with any other characters that you love. Where are you putting him? It can be from, and you can time travel as well. Any moment in time in the history of cinema, the history of story, you can do it right now. You could say, let's just put him with Grogo and optimize the merch outcomes. That would be my pick, throwing it out there. But you can go anywhere.

You can go back to films you loved when you were a kid, anything. I mean, I feel like he should be in some sort of. of science fiction universe. Of course. It doesn't necessarily have to be by your rules. But I don't know. Yeah, you can put him a gladiator. A science officer on the Enterprise.

Yeah, right. He'd fit right in. He'd fit right in on a Starfleet vessel. He'd fit right in in Star Wars. I agree. Let's put him with Grogu. Put him with Grogu. Can you imagine?

I mean, the Internet would explode. It would be the best. There's a Lego set that they made. And it comes with like a little rock. I'm aware. Yeah. Have you ever been? I mean, you have to assemble it.

Oh, I'm aware. What's funny is that Lego set, aside from custom, like, printing, like decals that are on the Legos, there's no unique, there's no unique Lego bricks in there. It's all made out of existing, there's no special. Jeez. Yeah. I love that. So Rocky is actually, like, part of a flower pot for his body. And then, like, there's a bunch of.

This is beautiful. To me, it feels right. Rocky is elemental and a part of everything. Yeah. That's how I'm going to look at it. I love that. I'm curious as a fan of sci-fi. So I love space movies.

And I love inside of a space movie when they make the spaceships dance. You know what I mean? It's just like one of my favorite visuals. And I was curious if there's like, if you have a favorite space movie that is not one of your own. And if there's like a trope or an element of a space movie, they're like, we got to do this. We got to make the spaceship dance or something like that, you know? I don't know. Let's see, like my favorite space movies are exactly what you would think they are.

They're like, you know, Star Trek 2, they're at Ifcon and like the Empire Strikes Back. Great movies. Yeah. So I am, I am a basic, I don't know if you won't. You can say it. You can say, I'm a basic bitch. Yeah, great. So am I.

Yeah, basic. So am I. I'm a basic bitch when it comes to my sci-fi loves. Although my first love is, my first true love above Star Trek and Star Wars is Dr. Who. That's my... Dude! I made her watch all of it. All of it. All of it. All of the new era. I knew it's the new era. I knew you were going to punk out like that. Well, give it time. I have seen all of it. Who's your doctor? The fifth doctor. Peter Davison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about it's the new era so that I can

participate in the conversation? I mean, got to be the 10th. Does anybody not like the 10th the most? I have like a real crush on 12. She does love 12. But I've got a real crush. But you have 10's shoes. I do have 10's converse that you got me. That was a wonderful gift. Ten is my guys. Well, we like 11. We've got some fondness, some affection for 11. I like them all. So, Big Matt Smith podcast. Davis and really snappy dress there. Yeah, very nice.

He did in his cricket outfit. Yeah, so while we were shooting PHM, we were shooting it in at Shepardin Studios, which is just near Richmond, which is a suburb of London. Well, Peter Davison lives in Richmond, and so I got to meet him. Damn. I got to, I just like made a, it's like, my. UK editor's friend is his wife, whatever, just some six degrees to Kevin Bacon kind of thing.

Amazing. And as six degrees to Peter Davidson. And I'm like, I would love to buy him a drink or something like that. And so he came just to my hotel and we hung out for like an hour chatting. Oh my God. That was like, I was just so giddy. You know, so this is me

in the middle of a period where I would go have like a half hour meeting with Ryan Gosling every day. And I'm like, I'm going to Me too. So what I'm hearing, we're putting Rocky and Dr. Hu. We're putting Rocky in the Tartis. Oh, yeah. That would work.

Rocky could operate all of the levers in the Tartis at the same time. I mean, he's got five arms and the Tartis has six panels. Okay. You know what? Fair point. Just got stunted on. Yeah. Just got stunted on.

That's fine. It's fine. Well, also he needs to be in a separate, you know. That's right. The bubble. Although I'm sure the doctor could whip up some sort of force field thing that, like, what we're vision. Yeah. I love it.

We're good. I think we did it, right? Fantastic stuff. This is wonderful. You're incredibly generous. That's it? And we can go. We heard you out and I didn't want to hold you.

We didn't want to keep you. We can keep chatting. We're happy to sit. We're happy to hang. I'm going to do what my master's tell me to do. You're busy man. You're busy man. I learned that as a rule on any of these press tours, there's like just the nearest woman is the person who will tell you what to do.

And that's probably the best. I mean, Jillian's the best person. Jillian is awesome. Gillian's awesome. I'm like, look for the purpose. hair. Yeah, exactly. Follow the purple hair.

You know, it's like, look for the girl with a crooked smile, you know. Look for the girl with the purple hair. You solved it. She will. Romantic. She's probably in the next room. Yeah, she's listening right now. Yeah.

Well, that's my hope. Jillian, you rule. All right. Best, Jillian. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. Blast. Okay. What a wonderful conversation. We were definitely wearing the exact same clothing. My hair absolutely looked the same.

It's fine. I can't remember what your hair looked like when we did that interview. Maybe it did look to say. Whoever knows. Thank you. To Andy Weir for joining us today. Thank you to Rocky, obviously, for inspiring us to love and laugh and try to save each other in our worlds. Thanks to Jillian. Thank you to Jillian. Legend icon. Gillian Smith-Chang who got Andy here. Man, she's the best. Yep. Thanks to Carlos Chiraboga. C.T. is with us helping out again today. Are dinner and Capel.

Jomea Denneron. Ames. Rocky. Amaze. And puppets. Thank you to puppets most of all. Bye. You can't reason with the sun.

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