House of R - ‘Rings of Power’ Season 2, Episode 5 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

It is time to step out into the sun to join Jo and Mal as they dive into the latest episode of ‘Rings of Power’! They begin with their opening snapshot and establish their thoughts on what might be one of the best episodes of the season (05:18). Then, they dive deep into each scene and explore the themes and characters in a world unseen (16:18). They also have wig watch and their special spoiler speculation section (02:11:15). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Cameron Dinwiddie Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply.

Services not available in all areas. The nine must do far more than bring aid to men. They must bring balance to the entire project. They must draw strength from the three and somehow redeem the seven. They must redeem us all. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today. Just to report that everything's fine in Aregian, don't worry. Everything is just fine.

I'm Joe, I've heard that these are matters of spirit as much as craft and that that applies to both ringmaking and podcasting. So I'm sure this will go swimmingly today. Everything's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. Hello.

We're here today to talk about Rings of Power, season two, episode five. I'm really excited to talk about this episode. There's a lot to get to. Halls of Stone is the name of the episode. Mallory. Joanna. Rings of power.

we are, I'm just, I'm going off script just to say, I am shocked and appalled and, and, and devastated to report that we only have three more episodes of Rings of Power to talk about. How did that happen? Where did the time go? I mean, I know how it happened. Three episodes debuted at once, but how did it happen. Absolute, absolute devastation. Um, calamity. If you didn't, calamity, indeed. If you did not hear it, we did a music and Tolkien sort of rings of power adjacent episode early this week. We've gotten a ton of like really lovely feedback from you guys about that episode. So I'm glad you enjoyed it. But if you've only been sort of tuning in for these recaps, I just want to let you know there's bonus rings of power content from earlier in the week. And then elsewhere going forward, we are moving into both House of Our and also our pals, the Midnight Boys over in the universe, Pew Pew, Pew, are moving into our cover. of Agatha all along the Disney Plus Marvel TV show as well as the penguin. Exactly when and how and at what rate those episodes are coming out, TBD, a little bit. So just know that we will be covering those shows.

We'll be wrapping up the last three episodes of Rings of Power week to week and then diving into those new stories as well. Mallory Hoken folks, just join us for all of that. How can they keep track of which stuff go? Thanks for asking. Yeah, you're welcome. Here are the recommendations. They're all easy to follow.

That's the great news. One, follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringiverse on YouTube. We've got a newish channel there, and you can find full video episodes of House of Our and Midnight Boys right there on the YouTube channel and on Spotify. While you're at it, follow the ring ofverse on the social media platform of your choosing.

We are on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, talk and then you want to be like referenced at the top of the pod like the people who just chimed in on the music of middle earth episode send us an email send us an email the inbox is open hobbits and dragons at gmail dot com send your thoughts on rings of power agatha penguin it is folks it is not too early to start emailing us about venom or craven i don't think mallory especially welcomes your craven takes um if you're watching us on video, you can see that Mallory and I have both, without communicating with each other, decided to wear Ferris on Red to this podcast. Potato. Very nice shirt game as ever for Mallory

Rubin. So we are in a color scheme supporting the Kingsman, but I think philosophically not supporting the Kingsman on this podcast. Last but at least in this little business section, I just want to say, on the spoiler-boarding front, as ever, we are only talking about up through episode five of this season. We are not watching beyond any of that. We're just talking about up through episode five. Do we assume that you are familiar with the basic plot and premises of the Lord of the Rings films directed by Peter Jackson or the Lord of the Rings books by J.R. Tolkien? Yes.

In terms of, I guess, the spoiler section that we have today is a little bit more, this is what I've sort of settled on. It's a little bit like what happens between now and when those movies. start because there's information we have from the Silmarillion, from unfinished tales, from all these sort of books stuff that we can talk about what we might expect to come in the remaining episodes of the season or the upcoming seasons. That's all in a spoiler section because that feels right to me. So that's what we're doing. It's a little complicated, but that's how we've decided to break it out in this episode of House of Ar. Anything else before we get to our opening snapshot? Mallory Rubin? No. Let's do it.

She's drinking out of a jar. It's a very hobbity move, I feel. All right. Cottage Corps. You know what I mean? All right. Let's go now to our opening snapshot. This episode, Halls of Stone, written by Nicholas Adams, directed, once again, a co-direction

credit to Louise Hooper and Sinahomery. So, again, I have questions about sort of which sections were moved around, or perhaps, you know, they blocked them, they directed them in blocks. I don't know. but it's these these co-direction credits are really intriguing to me yeah genuinely and insanely long previously on uh in this episode i don't know if you have the same experience yeah i actually like had to look at the time because it was i was like i must have like accidentally i like walked away because i was like this is all fresh in my mind i don't need this i walked away i came back and

it was still going on i was like what's happening here um no harfoot's no stores no stranger no tom bomb no South Lins, barely any Linden stuff. We are in the aforementioned halls of stone. We're focusing on the dwarves, Numeron, and Aragian, where everything is fine. Don't worry about it. Everything is fine and Aragian. We'll all be fine.

Yeah. Episode 5 seems to be, I mean, we're recording this on Thursday. The episode has only, you know, been out for a few hours of daylight at this point. But people seem to really like it. I'm curious how you feel about the episode,

Mallory. This was my favorite episode of the season. Yeah, pretty comfortably, actually. I don't know, I'm not committing to any pecking order until the season is complete. I still have the same note, even though I really enjoyed this episode, on the overall kind of thing I'm bumping on with, like, the pacing and structure of the season in terms of how the character sets are divided. Like, this episode, part of the reason I like this episode a lot is because it featured. I have notes about some of the things in the episode still, as I know you do, and we will get to it, but the episode centered around

the characters I enjoy spending time with the most, with a fairly notable exception. This was an episode that featured Durran and Disa quite heavily. We spent a lot of time with our guys, Kella Brimbor and Anatar.

Boy, did we spend a nice chunk of time with Hot Daddy Alendale and said our farewells to the Land Deal. Got to spend some time with your favorite character, Kemen. Missing. largely missing from the proceedings. I'm sorry. Genuinely, how dare?

I formally apologize. Thank you. Some jokes go too far and that was one. Exactly. I would say that even though we get to see Elrond run once in the middle of the episode and then with his curls blowing in the wind. Another great moment for Elrond's flowing locks. And then he has like a brief exchange with Gilgalid and gladriol is technical.

in the episode for what I can sort of very memorable and intimate brief sequence with Adar that I'm looking forward to discussing. It's, they're technically here, but it's basically an episode that Elrond and Galadriel are not in. And Norian Poppy are not in. And the stranger and Todd Bobadale, as you said, are not in. So, like, Acelor, Estrid, Theo, Orondir. I don't, I'm not sure why the season is playing out this way where we are away from so many key storylines for weeks at a time.

And I think that's part of why the previously on had to be so long. It's because there are characters we just hadn't been with in quite some time. In terms of the notes, we'll get to them, but I'll just tease broadly that the thing I'm bumping on still on that front is the same thing that I was bumping on in the premiere, which is some of the characters are making decisions and deductions that I don't understand and like saying things that I don't quite understand. It's pretty contained and limited. It's not what I would consider like a sweeping problem, but it's, it's happening.

Like the, the Calipraberber's letter arriving and then like the conversation around that. You hate this letter. I just thought that was bizarre. And part of why I thought the way it played out was so strange is because that's exactly what I was worried would happen. And very odd. All that said, just had a blast in Kazad Doom and had a blast in Aregion and had a blast watching Mario. put her hand on Alendale's chest for like what felt to me like 47 minutes of screen time. So there was a lot here that I really loved.

I'm hoping, you know, we only have three episodes left, tragic. I'm hoping, but I don't know, like, will some of these characters all be present in those remaining episodes or will we continue to alternate in the next two before we get to like one grand send-off in the finale? I don't know. Where are you on both the episode and then overall that kind of like blocking episode to episode of character groupings and storylines so that we're only with like three or four storylines per episode.

Great question. Thanks so much. I have to, I'm not ready to say this is definitely my favorite episode of the season, though I really, really liked it. And because I think there are certain exchanges that sort of lift me higher, like Kierden or Tom Bombadil, like that sort of stuff sort of elevates me on a different level. I am missing Kierden, Joanna. Yeah, yeah.

Come back to us. Beard or no beard. We don't care. Come back to us. So, you know, there are some elements I feel I really like the hardfoot stuff. I guess a lot of people don't like the heartfoot stuff, but I really like it. I love it as well. Sorry.

This is my first time checking in on the Reddit boards all season as you can tell. I'm like, many people are saying, I had not been reading any of it. And I was like, people don't like the Harfoots. What? Okay. So that today I learned that some Randos on Reddit don't like the Hartfoits. And Chris Ryan. canonically established on the ringer podcast network in frankly shocking fashion um i in terms of

the grouping of storyline i really do think this is a like an overcorrection yeah from season one because i think this was a critique levied at them in season one that we felt like we were bouncing all over the place too much you don't have to check in on everyone every episode and they're like noted yeah got it but instead we're getting these like really prolonged groupings and i feel like maybe in season three there's a sweet spot to hit or maybe in season three we'll see more of these plot lines coincide because as we break up the outline today as we often do going sort of region by region I couldn't separate oregano for Kazil do right like that's they're going back and forth too often that I couldn't really peel them away from each other and the more we get that the more

it will feel like one bigger cohesive story um which I'm really excited about So, yeah, I really liked this episode. I really, really liked it. Quite fun. And I just think I was so anxious, as I mentioned, I was so anxious about the, what I knew was going to be lengthy, lengthy, lengthy Calabrimbor and Anatar talking about smithing together scenes this season. And I was really worried that they would not capture either me or the, like, wider audience. that does not seem to be the case. I am on the edge of my seat.

I think both the Charlie's in those scenes are just like really doing it, really, really killing it. I could watch those scenes on loop and I think never tire of them. It's just electric. It's really good stuff. Okay, a couple quick emails before we get into sort of our breakdown. In response to the ongoing discussion we're having about how soon is too soon to have your kids or is there sort of a kid-friendly version of this? Sarah wrote in to suggest something called The Hobbit, colon, an illustrated edition, adapted

by Charles Dixon and Sean Deming, illustrated by David Wenzel. And so that's like a really nice, I think, kid-friendly version of The Hobbit, even though the Hobbit is already a kid story, like a young, littler kids. So The Hobbit, an illustrated edition, adapted by Charles Dixon and Sean Deming. check it out. And then we got this really interesting email from Leah on the allegory question, which I really loved. We've been joking for, I mean, we've only done like four Rings of Power episodes, but for two weeks now or whatever. We've been hitting, we've been hitting Tolkien, the professor pretty hard on this idea that he didn't like allegory front, right?

and which is to say he I'll explain okay so so Leah in this email is saying when Tolkien said allegory what he was really talking about was okay we can see this one element of Middle Earth to coincide with something that happened in World War I or World War II but in Tolkien's mind to make it allegorical it would mean that every single thing has to have a direct and exact correlation with, let's say, World War I. And that's, I suppose, according to this email, more what he was bumping up again. So I'll quote from the email, which says, for example, if the one ring equates to a nuclear weapon, then all the other components of the story of the Lord of the Rings must equate equally

to the other components of the, quote, story of World War II. There would need to be a Japan, a Russia, a Pearl Harbor event, and so forth. Since this is obviously not the case per Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings is not allegory. he did allow room for, quote, applicability. However, which I'll just go ahead and extend to, quote, metaphor. Sorry, Professor. Clearly, I believe Tolkien acknowledged this himself. The real-life experience of the Battle of Somme

inflex his presentation of war in the Lord of the Rings. This doesn't make it allegory, but certainly does allow it to be a metaphorical means to explore that horror. Similarly, the eradication of pastoral England and what it meant to him becomes both the presentation of the Shire and later the scouring of the shire. Similarly, the resurgence of the war in 1939, after the theoretical war to end all wars,

is echoed by Tolkien in the elves, believing that evil had ended forever. Applicability or metaphor, if you like, feels like a permanent false premise in our cultural imagination, but not allegory. So we will probably still make this joke, but I really did like this email on this clarification

that Tolkien wasn't quite as hard. line as maybe we're making him appear and that yes you can make allusions to the wars that both he and his son fought in and the way in which they impacted his story so anything else you want to say before we delve greedily and too deep delve are you explaining delve craft to me I'm delvesplating to you baby here we go calling this section between a rock and a hard place with Doren and Disa and Doreen and Narvey and the Aregian crew. And we're just going to start at the very beginning where the, after a very long previously on, the episode actually starts with the mountain range morphing into via trick of

the camera, this giant gemstone. And the actor Peter Mullen, who's playing King Duren, his hand in the foreground looking, the ring looks enormous, his hand looks enormous, the ring looks heavy. like it's a really cool camera trick and all the rings he walks away and then we see the rest of the ring and the other six they all look huge and heavy

what did you think of this opening image I loved the peaks of the mountain turning into the ring and establishing before we see the way that the ring is guiding Papa Dee to the exact striking point that he needs to hit it in order to bring sun back into the mine

this connection between stone and stone between power and power, was really cool and effective. And then seeing the rings, before we start hearing them whisper. Whisper. Troubling.

So no for me, folks. The rings are so, they're like, they reminded me of almost like Super Bowl rings. Like these are, you're right. You can feel the heft. They're not to my taste personally. I wouldn't wear them. I do like a chunky statement, a piece of jewelry.

I wouldn't wear these, but I do like how different they look from the elven rings. I like that part as well. I'm very excited to see what the nine look like for these covetous men. Yeah. What particular style will we land on there? I can't wait to find out. Yeah. Despite the fact that Prince Doran has been like going on diplomacy missions, seemingly

reconcile with his dad, he's still working in the minds. He's still just like down there working in the minds. and King Doran, not at all put off by the spooky whispers coming from his new church accessory is like, we're gonna dig here. And Narvi's like, excuse me, that's a low bearing wall, you cannot, sir.

And he's like, I'm gonna do it. In my robes, in my crown, I'm gonna do this. Narvi and the younger Duran are clearly perturied by this. I already mentioned his name, I really do want to shout out Peter Mullen. Yeah. In this episode, he has always been an extraordinary actor. We were really excited when he showed up in season one.

He did a great job in season one. But this is like, he gets to shine in this episode. And he is tremendous in a rapid but believable, just twisting of a character that we've come to now. Yes. I thought the performance was sensational. I mean, the writing on the show, the acting on the show. the acting on the show continues to be just one of the genuine

delights of consuming it week to week. The performances are so good and getting to watch. We love a character on an arc. I'm not sure if this has come up, but... Even the arc is going down. No matter which direction, the arc is going. We love a character on an arc.

And yeah, to feel in the inflection of his speech or the kind of like... We get different versions of the cells where, like, one of the Caliprimbor... One of the Caliporimbor scenes opens with a subtitle like caliber, we're breathing heavily. And then, of course, we get like, you know, the shaking hands and the quivering. And here you have almost this fevered euphoria for Dern as he is tapping into this power

and just like the language choice and then the way that that is delivered in the performance. Like this is where we are meant to dig. Like the emphasis on ment, the way that that cements, not only the ring is guide for Papa D, but the ring is binder, right? Like, met. There's no room. There's no wiggle room for interpretation. when you say meant, right?

It's like, we have to do this. This is the thing, this is the path. Pathways come up a lot in this episode. And this is the thing we love to talk about is like how are characters navigating power, their lust for it, but also any relationship to it, losing it, gaining it,

how that influences what they think is like their ability to choose or circumvent or rework a path versus following it and adhering to it fully. So just in the first couple, minutes of the episode you feel that so keenly it was fascinating and yeah the outfit like not making an adjustment to the fit to do some frankly very heavy manual labor arduous i mean arduous delving yes this was astonishing we need like i am not a a fan as uh our listeners know of the

MCU's Pietro choices aesthetically but that's kind of what papa diana needed. Like let's just get him some at leisure so that he's ready to work. Too much fabric. Maybe like, I was thinking maybe some car heart. Like he could rock some car heart. I think. As you know, I'm a huge car heart. I know. So I support this. Oh, I know. No free ads. Okay. No free ads. Let's say this. The performance is good. The choice of language is incredible. As Mallory pointed out throughout. And I want to say this actually at the top. We bumped a little and I think a lot of people did. And I think rightly so on how often. in episode four sort of dipped into just directly airlifting

lines from just a few chapters of fellowship. I really enjoyed how much this episode did not do that. And then it gives the writers, both the credited writer in this episode, but also I know like Jady and Patrick

do polishes on all the scripts. Like everyone just exquisite language in this episode of exquisite original language. is very exciting to see. And then the visuals. We get this shot and it was in the trailer of King Duren shot through the hole that he has created in the side of the mountain with the light on his face.

And he is, as you say, euphoric. He's done it. He's brought light back to his kingdom. We're going to talk about that in a second, right? It's not air we need. It's light. Light as a metaphor that we have talked about again and again and again in Tolkien in general and rings of power very specifically. Light is cleansing, light is healing. But he looks like he's in prison. Like he thinks that he is like like Allison Tameda made a window in his prison.

Right? And he's and it's not the only shot we get like that in this episode. It's very intentional like hemming in of a character. He's already ensnared by Sauron just by doing this. And so I just, I really like that. And I think it is so, and he does this throughout, it's so insidious of Sauron to use this light, this beautiful cleansing, the hope of Middle Earth light,

as the bait, as the snare, as the trap for the dwarves. It's really, really incredible. Loved this. What did you think of his stump speech to the masses? You know what? I loved it. Let's hear it. Pity those who dwell above. Slaves to the sun. Chained to its ceaseless rhythm of waking and sleep.

In Kazakdun, we are free of its tyranny. Here we bring the sun to us. At last, it is daybreak once more in our mountain. Oh man. What a great section to hear hot on the heels of our music episode. Bear McCrary just like really put it all out there for that that section. There's so much I want to say about this. There's so much to break down.

My initial instinctual reaction was to be so perturbed by the war cry of Kazat Doom, the way they separate those syllables because this echo of doom, doom, doom, is the sound that Tolkien puts into the sections in more. Moria when the orcs are chasing after our heroes. And also in the past when Moria fell,

doom, doom, doom is like what goes in their journal, like when they're, you know, Dear Diary, today the ball rock escaped. It was a hot bummer. Doom, doom, doom.

This is the quote from Tolkien. The end comes and then drums in the deep. Doom, doom, came the drumbeat and the walls shook. Doom, boom, boom, doom with the drums in the deep. Every now and again, the drumbeat throbbed and rolled doom. So that was my like initial, oh no.

My face was Deza's face. What is your, what do you want to highlight in this speech here? Okay. So obviously it's a deeply troubling and concerning opening to the episode for our beloved inhabitants of Kazan Doom. It's worrying. We are worried. right before the speech the like next time I order you to dig

you do so and then right into the speech this positioning of a gift a boon a way to provide for his people as something that stemmed directly from I am the sole arbiter of life in our mountain there is a even though that is presented in the moment of the speech as this like shared celebration inside of this community

there is this mounting, like, tyrannical aspect to what we're watching, right? I am the one in control. I am the one making this decision. You must heed my word. And obviously we've been talking throughout this season and throughout all of our Lord of the Rings coverage about like, all right, here's a thing we should be tracking. Not only who is coveting, but then who is seeking to control and not just guide, but fully account for some circumstance.

So that was worrying. And then my other So what's the the doom chant? Love the passage that you read. I was thinking about that as well. I think it's obviously there to ping that for us.

But also like because we heard this kind of we're at the the Casa Dume Pepp rally cheer in season one with the the, I believe the rock breaking contest, right? It struck me as notable like the shift there that that was presented us as this kind of like a good cheer communal gathering to basically watch sports, right?

And this is like life and death and how you are going to actually sustain the ecosystem that you depend on to not only mine and seek treasures, but exist. Those shifts in context tell us a lot about what has happened in this place in the span of time that we've been watching the show. My final response, and I don't know what is wrong with me, but I could not stop thinking about this to the point where I went to like look for evidence in the book because I was so hung up up on this. I'm like, wait a minute. Papa D. With love. This is not the way the sun works. Like I was like, why is he talking about the sun? Like it's just going to be a light switch they can

leave on now all the time. Absolutely. Then I was like, did I forget it? But he's like, pity them slaves to the sun and I'm like, they actually just get to be outside and the sun works the same way for you as it does for them. Storing the light. Yeah. And that was what I was like, wait, did I forget something about how this works and then I found that canned off passage from fellowship there used to be great windows on the mountain side and shafts leading out to the light and the upper reaches of the mines I think we have reached them now but it is night outside again and we cannot tell until morning so my main note for papa d is that's not how the sun works my guy and when you start losing control of the facts it's worrying like there is actually a little bit of

that and how he's presenting this. It's like it's propaganda for his achievement without really being rooted in reality. Absolutely. Yeah. It's the mission accomplished banner. It's just sort of like what are you talking about? I like that the language though, because we will get, we will hear from a few more speeches as we cover this episode. And this has so much in common with what Farisand is talking about over Numenor, this idea of the cycle of the sun and and being a slave to those cycles and stuff like that. So we We'll talk about that a little bit later on, but it is important, I think, that these people start to sound like each other

to a certain degree through the lens of their specific cultures. Disa and a nameless blonde resonator who I don't think we've ever met, they look troubled, they look pissed, right? Dorn Jr's like, yeah, dad's sick. And Disa's like, uh-uh, no, no, no.

And I just really like this idea of this idea of the speeches, I think, is really interesting. It's really interesting to emphasize these leaders, Kelle Brinbore and Faris on Duran, giving these speeches versus something like the resonating that Disa did these conversations. Obviously, like Kelle Brinbor and Anatar, who is also sorry and have a lot of conversations, but like to go from like open dialogue to proclamations declarations,

demands is a notable. shift inside of this episode, which I really like. And I mean, I think this idea of the resonators being in conversation with the rocks versus Dory demanding something from the rocks is feeds right back into what we were talking about

last week with good old Tompam and Arondier. Like, and Arondere, the way that they were like coaxing and soothing the trees and just sort of like, you know, working collaboration with nature versus this. this desire to have dominion over it.

And so I can connect Disa singing to and hearing from the rocks with Tom Bombadil crooning at Oldman, Ironwood, or whatever. And King Doran insisting, demanding, exacting, which is an unnatural thing to do in this world. Oh, I love that. That's just a fabulous observation. It's impossible. I think hearing you lay that out to not recall that that.

the season began with us watching Saran make a speech and then get stabbed in the back by his nominal followers. So yeah, this feels like very intentional. Fabulous thing to point out. In terms of Disa, this is, you know, not the way that she wanted her fellow resonators to stop gossiping, but this was not the way that she wanted it to happen, stunned into silence watching Papa D talk about how he controls the sun. And then to your point about, I love that observation too, about the specific lens of the culture,

but the through lines that we're observing across the story sets because it made me think of the, we hear a few different times in this episode in different locations, somebody touting what the new age will be for their, right? This is the age of men. Well, this new age of dwarves. And it's like everybody is focused. But are any of them thinking about how they will relate to each other in those pursuits or felon? Fellowship or community. Fellowship?

No. Alliance. All right. King Doran's not the only one giving speeches. As we mentioned, Kellevermore has a few to give in this episode. My goodness. I loved this scene,

not just because, okay, we get the doors of Duren. Our guy Narvi is here to talk proudly about his creation, and we can talk about all of that stuff. But I just, like, I am obsessed with everyone's of good cheer. Yeah. Caliborne is like, look what will be accomplished. Narvi's like, this door is so cool. I cannot wait to talk to you about it.

A new west gate of our mountain, unbreechable, visible only by moonlight and guarded by a password known only to friends. And we're like, ooh, you know what that means, all that sort of stuff like that. And Anatar's like, I'm pissed. I don't like this. We're not making rings. I benefit not at all from these doors. And I'm going to ruin Keloprimbor's good time immediately. Yes. And then what was our shared other favorite point of this moment, Mallory Rubin?

We could talk just about like the first 30 seconds of the scene for an entire podcast because it was frankly extraordinary. I'll circle back to all the other parts of it, but in terms of what you are referencing here. Early in Caliburnbor's address, he says, today we embark upon a new dream to enshrine our friendship in stone. and as he says that, we pan too. Genuinely my favorite moment of the season so far. I'm being serious. It's so funny. A just town bad Mordania to Aditar who was Sauron.

And kind of like, just patting him on the arm in a like, yay, us. Maybe we'll fuck in the after party. toast and he is miserably not only not returning that gesture but miserably watching kellebrimbor make friendship doors instead of forging the nine this was to me an instantly iconic rings of power moment that i genuinely adored i thought it was incredible the visual comedy to me of the cut to merdonia and anatar and no one else is anywhere near them and she is smushed right up next to him. Incredible.

With no excuse. It's so funny. Which, of course, you know, we'll come back to. I love seeing the doors of Duran. We sort of talked, you know, we got a hint that they were coming with the Ethielden reveal early in the season, with the character of Narvi, who we know from Lord of the Rings is the one who co-proed these doors with Kellibrimbor. but I was you know it felt like again we'll talk about this a little later on if people are going to have a similar like this is too much fellowship con fellowship with the ring content for me but like I don't know the doors of Doran they have to be built sometime and I really like

seeing them here especially the economy of including that and have it be a character note for sauron you know I think was really interesting I loved this I had an interesting I was thinking about Elrond a lot watching this. I had a kind of interesting like I felt super proud on his behalf because of this union and then also like deeply sad for him because first of all he's not there to celebrate in this like said to be impossible but our cooperation has achieved this wonder. This is the thing that he believed in and that he was seeking and that his friendship with Duren symbolized and like proved could be possible if everyone would just be open minded. if anyone would just be open-minded enough to consider that they could bring that into their lives too

and he doesn't get to witness it because he's running through the the fucking woods trying to get to kill and dime disaster for elron right now just brutal um and also because like we are then you know so worried about what is actually unfolding at the forge at oregion and what like the way that this union and this fellowship and this friendship and this collaboration is is just one more chisel moving mysteriously through the air that Sauron is using to achieve his ends. So Elrond, even though he wasn't in the episode a ton, was on my mind a lot and including certainly here. Always thinking about Elron, to be honest with you. I mean, same.

Same. What I love that we see on Displace, and we already saw it in his infiltration of Oregon, all this sort of stuff, is like, there was this question in season one. of was Sauron pulling all the strings from the start? Did he make Galadriel go to the raft? Did he do this? That, the other thing. And I think, no, I think Sauron is the world's greatest improviser. And he's like, I will pivot.

Watch me pivot. Here's me pivoting. And so when he sees that he is sort of losing his grasp on Calibrembor throughout this episode, he'll make a lot of moves. But here he's playing the like petulant. To me, it looked like petulant, like braddy younger boyfriend to old Sugar Daddy. when he's like you're not allowed to have fun with your friends. I'm not having fun, so I'm going to ruin your fun too.

And your speech was too long and your hair looks bad. Like, it was just so brady and shitty of him. And I really enjoyed it. I absolutely love this. I was thinking of us. Like the I encouraged you to keep it short. And like truth is, like, I should have spoken longer. I was just like, wow, they're just pulling the conversation at the end of a house of our recording between us and Steve and Arturo.

I encourage you to keep it short. But also, I thought this was, as we talk about the varying success of when we are with or not with characters, the compressed timeline, the pace at which things need to unfold inside of the show versus how they unfold in the text, in the text, this was the kind of exchange that I thought really effectively and necessarily allows us to feel how much time has passed between the characters. Like you don't have a moment like that if you haven't had a lot of afternoons and evenings and mornings working at the forge together days and times and sessions and meetings and conversations that we haven't seen. Like you could just feel that they've been they've been inhabiting a space in a world together even though we haven't always accessed it with them. Right. We've been away from them for episodes.

I do think things start to fall apart when you try to line up all the storylines because what that means. Because it feels like given together weeks, months. They made these elaborate seven rings for the dwarves. Like, you know, all of that. How long has Elron been in the forest is the question you have to ask yourself? This is actually like driving me kind of crazy. I don't know. I mean, I know we have it later in the outline, but like, I will just say that watching Elron run,

I think one response could be love it. Way to hustle, buddy. Some urgency. Here, my response was the season opens with Elrond riding a horse to the same location on an urgent mission. Why is he traveling by foot? Like, obviously we saw the, you know, previous sequences and we know that there are, there are things of foot that are inhibiting their pursuit.

But that actually just does seem like a convenient choice that is being made in the story to delay the moment when their company had to fracture in the first place, the moment when Elrond will arrive back at Lyndon, et cetera. And so that is not the most successful part of the season so far. You mentioned early in the season that like there were going to be some Game of Thrones, how slowly or quickly are people traveling comps on our mind watching this? It felt apparent right away. And like this is definitely definitely one of the first.

them. But glad you found your hustle now, Alron. Good to see. Good to see. They're late than never, I guess. I love this line, this line, to go back to Calabrimbor and Anatar, who's also Saran, when Calabrimbor says it is a game you plays it not, sewing seeds and others' minds and then convincing them the fruit is of their own thought. The idea that Calibrimbor is not entirely a dumb-dum being manipulated by Anatar, that you have these ebbs and flows, I think is such a smart aspect of the season because he's, yes, he's dazzled by him, he's seduced by him. He gets pressured in various ways, you know, praying upon this vulnerability or that vulnerability to ultimately get what he wants. So Sauron ultimately is pushing

him in all the right directions, but it's not an easy push and it requires a bunch of different zigs and zags. And so the fact that we get this push back here from Kellebun-Bor, I think, is really important. What did you want to say about this line? Yeah, I agree with that. I think like it makes it it this is one of the most consequential things in the history

of this fictional universe is the forging of the rings of power. And so it has to unfold in a way that we are deeply impacted by. And so there is a tragedy to this. The fact that Callabroonbore is aware that something doesn't feel right heightens the tragedy that he is being swept up in this deception. But also, so it works

effectively for both characters on because also it just makes us more impressed watching saran at work right and to your point earlier about like how he's an improviser we've i think felt that consistently in how he's interacting with kellebrunbor he's ready to pivot instantaneously based on whatever calabrimbor says or does or is feeling in a given moment so that he can continue to ensnare him and so like you know he's sauron like it's not only the the central villainous force in this particular television show we're watching like this is the great villain in the history of story. Like, it's got to be good. You know, you have to be impressed watching him work his craft.

And part of his craft is deception. And so, like, we'll get to it later. But when we hear him just literally describing two Kellebrunbor's face, what he is doing to him by manipulating him, you're awed by it. Odd by it. So I thought that that was part of why I really loved the episode because it was a great portrait of how Saran is able to operate and achieve. Also, I was just like his kind of.

Caliborne Boar a big Inception fan. Like, does he just, like, does he just mainline Christopher Nolan movies at night? This was, that was just, that was the other thing. I bet Caliborne Boar's favorite, uh, Nolan film is the prestige. I think he's a prestige guy. I agree with that. I mean, that movie rules. Yeah.

I think that Charlie Vickers, as Halbrand and Anatar and Sauron, and like, we're going to get to see him do even more in future seasons. Like, yeah. this is the spine of the show. This is it. And he's just like constantly delivering. And it's, and it's wild. I mean, in terms of like a casting choice, it's wild because Charlie Vickers did not have a significant CV before the show.

So like, you know, this was the most important casting for them to nail. And they just knocked out of the park. Yeah. Absolutely. We get a little lore corner with Sauron, right? because Sauron's trying to convince Calibran more hashtag not all men, right? Yeah, some of the men are bad, but not all of them.

And let's talk about it. Before he highlights three specific men who were not that bad, if you recall, he, I think truthfully says he fears Numenor more than any other land on Earth. He's been there. He knows at what level they're operating in Numeronor. So he knows that they are a threat to his desire

to conquer middle earth. And that was fun too because we, like, you know, we talked about this a bit in season one, but it allowed us to, it allows you to just kind of go back in time and think about his, what we watched from him when he was there. You know, the way that he would look at the,

the forge, or the way that he would interact with the guildsmen, the fights in the street, the way that he would prove to himself. Like, did he have to, like, crack that guy's arm and half and bash his head into a wall? No, but, like, you can now go back. He needed to prove his dominance over them, right? And then, like, even, you know,

with Galadriel and he's like, I like, I begged you to let me stay, right? And obviously part of that is this great mind game that is always a foot. But what would desiring to stay in Numerant mean for him? Is it because he just wanted to have like a lovely island life or because he wanted to be able to, and this gets back to what we were talking about in the premiere, right, with like, when was it finally actually too late? And when was there still that glimmer of a a possibility of like you make the choice the next day to be good again. Yeah. And so how much of it was like maybe this could be a place where I could do things differently

and how much of it was I have to keep an eye on the people that I fear and the people who I know could actually challenge me. And if I'm here, I could watch, I can monitor and I can undermine. It's fun now to think back to the season one scenes. He's like, they have aqueducts. It's pretty advanced. So I got to keep my eye on them. Okay.

He's like, Numeron, Silicon Valley, same threat level to me. Okay, this is what he says to Kilberbor, right? He says, when the darkness falls, there are always some who rise forth and shine. And then he names three guys. Here we go. Number one, ARN deal.

You know him. You love him. It's Elron's dad who turned it to a star. But before he became a star, he was just a guy being a dude, falling in love with a hot elven babe who became a bird. So that's some of your best work. That's Aeron deal, right?

Elrond's dad, the star. Kelbrimbor literally knew him. We talked about that in season one. And Airendel literally shines because of a Someril, the morning star that's on his brow as he traverses the sky. So that's case number one. Case number two, a more obscure name, because two out of the three of these we've talked about before, but a more obscure name,

Tor is another person that he brings up. That's Arundel's dad, a great hero of the Edine. And there's this quote, in spite of being a man, capital M. Man, savage from Tolkien, he was chosen by the Val Aumu to be the last hope of the Noldor in the face of annihilation by forces of Morgoth. And per tradition, he is the only man to be accepted as one of the elder kindred and will share with them an immortal life

in Valinor as long as Arda will endure. And so Elron's like, shit, not only is my dad amazing, but my granddad is also a hero of great renown. And last one at least, we talked about him a lot in the music episode. It's Barron, son of Barra here. And the way he said it, I think, is meant to make us think of Erdogan, son of Ayrathorn, the way that he says that heroically. Or bronze son of you wouldn't know him, yeah, either. Yeah, exactly.

This is Luthian's husband. They took a Silmarillion out of Borges Kraut and then they lost it. But they took it and that matters, okay? Yeah. The intention matters, okay? Yeah. So Sauron names three mortal men, half-elven at least, mortal men who fell in love with him married Elvin Babes.

A fun thing for heroes to do. But he also identifies threats to himself by naming men who did serious damage to Morgoth. They are exactly the kind of men. He needs the nine rings to take off the board before they can become the heroes who can stop him. And this is that urgency is highlighted in the, in the stark difference between like a Kemen and an Allendiel or a Valandial. Kemen's not a threat to Sauron. Allendial is Alendial is cut from the same cloth

as these heroic men that he is mentioning here And those are I thought you were just going to say He's cut And I'm like okay Now I understand this episode A little bit better And I'll have the rubbing of the chest

But Saran's like Okay What fucked my old boss up Yeah And how can I not make that same mistake? Yeah So he needs the nine rings To try to ensnare

Heroes similar to the ones That he just outlined here And we love a Lord dump, honestly. So thank you so much for that. Great stuff. Great stuff. We had previously invited Elrond on the pod, and now we would like to controversial, though,

it may be formally extend the invitation. Saran, come on House of Bar. No notes. 10 of 10, no notes. This is not, it convinces me, it does not convince Caleb Bar. He's like, nope, I'm not going to do it. And then Anatar, who I guess has been spending time watching the Infinity Saga, says, fine, I'll do it myself.

He doesn't quite say that, but he goes full Thanos. He's like, oh, sure, okay, sure, fine. I'll do it. Yeah. And Caliborne Moore for some reason is like, okay, I don't know why, but, you know. This was incredible to watch. I'll save most of my commentary on the way that he is baiting him for the part later where they taught, did they drop the, well, we did this. We just added up, we just dumped a bunch of extra meth really, was that not the way?

Any feedback in the recipe? But in general, like, this, this is. this stretch was great. You know, the, the men are covetous line. We had heard from Kellebram board back in the second episode and the, in the multi-episode season premiere.

We know his stance. Sauron knows his stance. There are going to be unpredictable things that he has to adjust to in real time, and then there are going to be the constants that he has to really work to undermine and warp to his favor. And I love what you're saying

about like the way that he's citing you know, you mentioned that Arendiel and Caliburn Boar have history and like of course we heard Caliburrador talk to Elrond about that in the first season and so to take like these great figures and myth and lore for us

as readers and viewers but also these figures who have this weight and heft for the character and try to use that to sway him like we'll pick the good ones. Why wouldn't you trust me in our meaningful time together here and all of my notes about the length of your speeches to just pick the good ones. It'll be fine. And the idea that like he can at once plot his course by saying,

think about these people that you respect and that you have history with or you know of, like as people of consequence and friendship, right, and adoration. And then also in doing that, like, as you're saying, identify the people he needs to take off the board and control. But like, what's the real, I mean, when we think of that covetous. line or we think of Elrond in the in the trilogy. He's like, men are weak, right? And we're tracking in our second ring and in the mailbag, et cetera. We're tracking our candidates for Nazgul watch.

Like, he has to seek the threats to take them off the board, but also seek the figures who he believes he can bend to his will, who he believes he can deceive. And, like, that's a continuation, I think, of what we were just. talking about about how part of the takeaway of this season is going to be saran pretty good at being bad like that's going to be a hard thing to do right with those figures of consequence i'm i'm very excited that we're in the like you will make me the nine phase of the story i think this is going to be great thrilling yeah three rings are nice seven rings are okay but nine rings that's that's what we're really cooking delightful dee's pruning the uh

The friendship tree. Got some dead leaves on it. Yeah. It's not doing super well, it seems like. Well, you know, no sunlight. And then she talks about the fact that the resonating she does versus the slap dash weird whispering shit that King Doran is doing to find the holes to take. This is a gift from Aule. Let's talk about Aule for a second, shall we?

This is a god. Yeah. Just in case you didn't know. He's also a Smith. It's a Smith god. so it's like Hephaestus or Fulkin without the marital strife, I would say. Allie created the dwarfs, so that's very important. And because he wanted to have like disciples to share his gifts with.

And seven starter dwarfs, by the way, seven is a very important number for the dwarves. His name means invention. He loved teaching people as craft. He had a few significant students that, you may have heard of. Number one, Fianor. You know Fannor.

You made that really beautiful looking hammer. Kellebrimmers are always like Fianor. I will never live up to him. Fianor also broke quite bad, by the way. So Calabrebermur being like Fianor, the ultimate is like,

I don't get a different hero, I think. But the main apprentice that we want to talk about for Aulay is Sauron. Yeah. Sauron is a disciple. of Aulele. So it's That's where all of his smithing skill comes from.

So it's all the more fucked up that he's trading in this perverted version of Alley's great gift to the dwarves of resonating. He's like, I can do that with spooky whispers. I just really liked this little mention here. Yeah. These are, I mean, we always love a moment with Disa. The show has, I think, a genuine. a knack for these organic, seamless, casual mentions and incorporations of the lore and the history of the world into conversation and in a way that is, I think, very rewarding for

Tolkienheads and not at all like a blocker for people who don't have that history. That is just not an easy balance to achieve, especially given the volume of those moments. And I think they really do it with a deft hand. So that's, that's impressive to me. And again, in terms of the way that the show is able to constantly, uh, present subtly, I think, often these connections between moments and character sets and places. Like the trimming of the leaves, okay, the sun was out for some period of time. Our ability to measure the passage of time on the show as we've said is challenging.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But for some period of time. And so, like, my assumption seeing that was some of the leaves withered because they were deprived of the beam of sunlight that then bedazzles them again. But the thing that you're thinking of when you see that is the blight on the great tree in Linden and the way that those leaves were corrupted and befouled. And so there is this in that connection and in that memory and association.

We're watching Papa Dee tout the achievement and also the future, the well-position moment for Casa Doom. And I'm like, in addition to all the fear and the notes that Ping are worry, like this, there's a sense of doom then in that association, a sense of doom creeping and crawling

and a befalling a people. Doom. Yeah. Also, I would add, I love all of that. I would also add that I think that tree is a symbol of Dorn and Elron's friendship, right? And the fact that it is neglected, a.k.a.

Rings of Power. we would like an Elron and Doren soon, please. Thank you so much. So we're going to go to the market with Dern and Disa. Before we do, I just want to say, like, Disa in this episode is so staunchly anti-ring. Then I'm taking her off my, she was on my leaderboard for, like, ripe for manipulation or seduction by Sauron. I don't think so anymore. What do you, what do you think? Yeah.

I agree. This in general, this is one of the things about the season that I was like in the first few episodes a little bit worried about, but this episode is part of why I liked it. I really bought in the inversion of the positions of the characters in this particular slice of the story. You know, we talked a lot.

The Duren's. Yeah, the Duren's and also like what you're citing about Disa, you know, Duren, and the Duran's literally have a conversation about that in this episode, which is also helpful. But, you know, this idea that Duren and Disa were the ones in season one who were like, dig, delve, Mithro, it's ours, it's yours,

and it's mine, and like this will be our kingdom and it will be what we make it. We were like, oh, fuck. We really like these characters. We don't want them saying things like this. And Papa Dee was reserved, and he was all about restrained and caution at the expense, at the kind of hideous expense, of helping and potentially saving an entire race of people.

So I was like, okay, this is an interesting microcosm of this question in the season so far. Like, do we have enough to believe that the characters would inhabit this new space? And the thing I actually really like at this point in the season about this flip for these characters is, first of all, again, they're like consciously aware of it and interrogating it. DeSund D. Sunduran actually also have a conversation about it. He's like, you were the one who wanted me to be to be. pursue this. She's like, not like this.

Yeah. They still feel, even though the specific thing they're either like afraid of or coveting has flipped, they're actually still rooted in, I think, the same guiding principle. And that's why it works. Like, they, during baby Dee, D Jr., little D, what are we going with? I don't know. Papa D really feels right. During the younger, he was like always trying to think boldly and ambitiously and in a new

kind of like progressive way about the, the future and Papa D wanted to exert control in the form of like and caution and like the heeding no counsel he also would heed no counsel before he had the ring and like those things actually have not changed so yeah I think this is actually being handled like quite well um and I'm with you at least where we are right now with Disa I'm no longer uh I'm no longer concerned that she will fall though I am in general still very concerned about these people being okay based on what we witness in the next sequence. I'm very worried.

Okay. We're haggling over a tuning stone. Disa drops it and just like can't out for the effing life of her catch up to the stone. This was tough for our girl Disa. She goes straight to a crevice. I thought. As you know. I mourned for you.

Automatic pass for me. I would be like, bye bye tuning stone. Yeah. I'll buy another one. Yeah. So she like sort of wiggles her way through this crevice into a into a chamber where she's like, what's this? I never seen this before. She's like a stone throw from the market.

I had some questions about this like unexplored cave that's quite close to the market. But anyway, so she goes in there. And here we get our Beastie of the Week. I think this is what counts. We were talking about how one of the co-creators J.D. Payne was saying they kind of wanted to have a monster every single week on the show. And this week we get this thing in the water. last week when Arundier and Estrid and he really didn't do anything helpful but sure Isildur killed that mudworm in the Southlands.

Arondir mentioned nameless things and we talked about this last week but here we go again, right? Far, far below the deepest delving of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there but I will bring no report. to darken the light of day. That's Gandalf post-Balrog fight, saying there's some oaky, spooky stuff down there, and we don't even have a name for it, okay?

When Galadra and Halbrin encounter the sea worm, the worm in the ocean that we saw, again, at the start of this season, the Amazon, you know, like Amazon has, like trivia that you can click on while you're watching something on Pride Video. It said of that creature, it said, quote, the Great Sea or the Sundering Seas divides the undying lands to the Middle Earth where there are still nameless things in the deepest pieces of the world. So that creature in the ocean, that creature in the mud, and this creature in the water here are all of sort of the same classification

because this is very likely the creature, it does have a name, but it's called one of the nameless, the watcher, the watcher in the water, that Frodo and the fellowship encounter outside the doors of Doran. He's also mentioned in the Deer Diary. Today, Moria went to shit. The watcher got oin.

It sucked. So this is the watcher and likely some people are like, is at the Balrog, I don't think it is. I think it's supposed to be the watcher in the water. But I really liked this.

here. I liked it less later when King Doran says we should be delving much deeper. That felt a little on the nose to me. But I don't mind the proximity of the doors of Doran in this episode and the watcher in the water. But for people who didn't like the Barrowites being so close to Tom Bombadale in last week's episode, I don't know if this will feel similar. Didn't feel that way to me at all. I really actually also like the Barrow Whites and Tal Bobadil in the same episode last week. But what do you think of this revelation of this particular spookyuki thing? Yeah, so my first thought when something spooky and horrible started to groan and roar and surge water toward our beloved Disa was just, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is the Balrog because obviously we saw the Balrog last season, waiting down below and I think this falls into our like, we're not pretending people haven't seen. seen like the trilogy or read the books like we know that there's like a future work to do for

the ballerog in this area right um so that was my first thought but then when i was like parsing the particulars of what happened it does feel a little more watcher in the water to me i think like the descriptions from fellowship of the watcher just match what we're seeing here the others swung around and saw the waters of the lake seething as if a host of snakes were swimming up from the southern end or another passage the arm let go of frodo and sampled him away crying out for help 20 other arms came rippling out the dark water boiled and there was a hideous stench now we got no mention here of reeking we do get mentions of reeking elsewhere which i cannot wait to discuss but that just i mean those descriptions of what's happening to the water kind of like

completely match with what happens yeah right so yeah watcher um meanwhile well these is getting the shit scared out of her by a very scary thing. And I just, I just urge everyone listening. Never go in a crevice. There's no good reason to. Absolutely. Just don't do it. This, and like with everything happening here at this point in time?

No. No. Just say no to a crevice. Okay. King George is talking to the emissaries from the other dwarven lords, dwarven kings. I think a question that I have, because we've been talking about the nine a lot, and we'll talk about this a little bit more

in our second ring spoiler section, but do you think we're actually going to see the other six dwarven lords? I don't know. Or like if we see them, are they going to be actual characters or just like other dwarves with crowns wearing the rings, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I guess the latter seems more likely based on where we currently are, right? certainly in the span of this season. We only have three episodes to go. Obviously, we have subsequent seasons ahead of us, but it does feel like inside the remaining time this season, we will just learn or quickly glimpse that these have been handed out.

Which I'm like a little torn on how I feel about this. Because on the one hand, I think for like the sake of efficiency and like a compact, focused streamlined story, this is actually the right decision to make sense. You are able to glean the important things, thematically through characters and relationships you're invested in, right? We have what we need on that front.

And because they're actually like sometimes in other tales, we might be like, well, you know, is everyone the same and they're going to make that. Like, we just don't have time to like at this point learn and meet and six new characters and learn everything we need to know about them to be as impacted by the choices that they make as we would be by

what we're watching with Papa Dee. And so like he's our access point to that. Yeah. I guess the flip side for me is like, boy, isn't the point of the, one of the points of the show to show us how the rings of power were forged and then what they did to the people who took them. So if like we're really limited in our consideration set there, I have like some trepidation about that, but stop me if you've heard this before, Joe, I'm up to your minds. Well, what do you think on this? I'm open, I think to swaying either way.

I feel similarly, like I think that the three, the three, the three. Three rings being on three very different hands. Yeah. We don't know what's going to happen with the nine. And we'll talk about that a little bit more later. Yeah. I would hate for the dwarves to be the only group that get like one person representing them. Yeah.

In that way I mean. But at the same time, I don't feel like I have the time or patience necessarily to meet. I mean, I'm delighted to meet Narvi this season, but like I don't know that I have space to go to like many different Dwarven kingdoms. Here's what Duran says, King Duran says, Papa D, if you prefer, and it is troubling. He says, power over earth, power over rock, power to shape the destinies of dwarves forever.

And I think I heard Tom Bombadil drop his honey when he heard that. Like he's just like, uh-uh, no, no, no, no. That's not what we do at all. I heard Wal-Drick. This idea of, tis a power air it's true Sauron's spreading influence not only corrupting the minds

of the individuals that he is controlling but the actual corrosion of the natural world that we're getting be it trees in linden or no be it the desert and ruin that was a bunch of a verdant valley be it the crumbling of the rock we're just poke we're just Swiss cheesing

like the walls of this mountain I'm very concerned about it. Or, and we'll talk about this later, I would say the blood-sullied waters of Numenor. Like, it's just, uh, his, his influence is everywhere and touching everything. And literally, especially for a character who claims he wanted to heal the earth.

Yeah. This overt damage and corrosion and corruption of the, of the natural world is fascinating. Yeah. I, I really loved this part. Like, We have our signs and portents aspects of this, right? He thinks that they have passed this test, right?

He says that way. Like we, uh, my people have passed this test and sooner she'll pass it to. Um, the assembled emissaries have, have no comment. No questions and no comments. They're just lusting after like me and no lines and new jewelry. Yeah. They did not get their sad card. No.

Um, but like, okay, they were granted this balm via the ring and it let us. them to the light and light is more precious than air. Like this is, I think, if we're being generous and charitable, actually like a kind of easy mistake to make, right, that you could come to this place if you were in his shoes. Yeah. The thing I'm, one of the things I'm really loving this season is that we were already talking about this a little bit today and it's going to be something I think we continue to revisit.

The people, the characters who are making these alarming or treacherous or outweigh, or outweigh, right, bad choices are aware that something is wrong. They're not blind to the fact that there is some sort of threat. They are making those choices because they know something's wrong, because there is a threat. And so it gets back to the thing we love to revisit from season one, right? Give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them and how that continues to rear its head as really like,

just say, I just put the mission statement right out there on like front street. and it's been there for us the whole time here. Should he do a TED talk and or write like a new edition of the power or something like that? Is this the secret? Should we all be following? I think you'd do great. I think it'd do great. And then you had your point about like the healing, you know, the greed and the hubris that are on display here.

Like this is like a desire to control not just to heal or to heal in order to further some sort of hold on power. And so that is a thing that we in this universe are trained to. Fear. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, Guseucumabab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis.

Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. 100 free events.

6,000 kids, one mission. Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities. Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community-based organizations near you. Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100KK. That's Clinic with a K.

Clinic Kids is registered by 151C3 nonprofit. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients?

Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next.

New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. It's just alarm bell city with everything that we're watching here. Speaking of Alarm Bell City, tools are flying all around the shop in Oregon as Merdinia is having some sort of fit in her invisible state. She's put on one of the rings and she has gone into the unseen world. Now, I don't know how I would react if I went into the unseeing world. Probably not well. But I don't know that I'd just be like tossing tools on the floor, but maybe I would.

Fun fact about Merdania, who is a show-invented character, that the Mirdane are the Julesmiths. So the whole group are called the Mirdane in the book. So they named her Mordania as like sort of this emblem of the larger Julesmithery that's happening around in Aregian. But I love this, what I'm going to call weaponized incompetence from Anatar. The way that he's like, I don't know, man, we just thought we'd dump a bunch of myth. Do you think we should do something different?

Should we have not been loading the dishwasher that way? How would you do it? Show us, dear master. I find Calabram Moore's anguish and conflict over watching people fumble a job. He knows how to do deeply relatable personally. But also we should say that these like sort of lesser rings, because Mordaunia puts on a ring that is not ultimately one of the nine. These are canonical, right?

No, these are canonical. Quote, in Eregian long ago, many elven rings were made. Magic rings, as you call them, they were of various kinds. Some were potent, some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full grown. And to the Elven Smith, they were but trifles. Yet still to my mind, dangerous for mortals. That's Gandalf, and we would say yes, especially given what Mirdania saw.

Can we hear this clip, please? I was in a place like this, but shrouded in mist and darkness sat. I saw right. But first I thought it was the forge burning, but it wasn't. What was it? It was tall and its skin was made of flames. It came toward me. Breathing.

Reeking of death. And I saw it's eyes. Pitiless and eternal. I think it's been here. I think it's been here among us all along. Mardania. You sweet summer. child, I have bad news for you.

Brutal. Brutal. So, Mardania sees Sauron in his true form. Yes. And does not know what she saw, and if she did, would she still cozy up and pat him on the shoulder? Probably not. Probably not. What I love about this is that Sauron, who is also Anatar, actually, his poker face is super strong in this sequence. He does not seem all that perturbed by her description.

describing his true form. So I, kind of, yeah. I felt like we lingered on his face and he was really clocking this in a like, oh,

he was clocking it. Meaningful way and that like, a lot of what is unfolding subsequently with his, the particular attention that he's giving to her is because she has seen his, his true self.

And like, obviously later we'll hear him, you know, explain, like, shows you things as they were. Wasn't me. Not me, by the way. Yeah.

This was great. Like I, the fact that kind of first, for a beat, you think, again, this is one of the many Balrog fakeouts in the episode, like just for a second, you're like, she's describing a Balarag. Oh, no, she's describing Sauron. And, you know, again, we obviously as fans of the trilogy are going to associate Sauron most of all with like this eye wreathed in flame. And this, this television series begins with Galadriel, like, describing him as, you know,

one whose very hand is flame unquenched. And so it's only like a millisecond before you're like, Yeah, she's, no, she's talking about sarin. But there was, part of what I was interested in in his face in that moment is like, because we've been kind of tracking this, like, could he have lived a different life and been a different person? He also has to confront that that's his true form, right? Like, he's got to stare that in the face. This is a very tough moment for us.

You could put all kinds of wigs on, but at the end of the day. You're still Sauron. Like for us, for Galadriel, for Mordania, for everyone who had a, has a real, like, we can't. could fix the would-be king of the Southlands. We could fix. Just give us a try. It's tough to hear skin made of flames, breathing, reeking of death. It's just not ideal. I loved it.

I loved it, too. I agree with you. He's definitely clocky, and of course it is all part of what he does next. But I just thought the contrast between him, like, I think kind of playing it very cool, versus his reaction next when Kelbrambor is like, when they're like Durant's here he's stressed because the rings are doing bad shit to his dad

and Anatar's like I'll take care of it and Culberman was like no I got this and Anatar's like okay time to pivot new plan he's saying no too many times to me time to find a new plan right so this is when we get the absolutely

incredible Anatar Merdania interaction for a couple of reasons Yeah. So he's pivoted to basically a new mark. He's like losing my holding on Calibran Borr, this dumb lady was patting my arm earlier. Perhaps I can make it work with her, right? He says, quote, some who have seen the unseen world are never at home in this world again.

And so, of course, like I think of Frodo and I think of, you know, save the shire, but not for me. Like, you can't go back, all of that sort of stuff. but also the Nazgul, the wares of the nine, right? Because this is the quote from the Silmarillion. They could walk if they would unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun and they could see things in the world's invisible to mortal men. But too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. They became forever invisible. Save to him that wore the ruling ring and they entered the realm of shadows.

The Nazgul were they, the ring race, the enemy's most terrible service. darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death so merdonia do not put that ring on again yeah okay not ideal yeah not ideal um and then we get this right uh an an an it tires like okay is that weird flamy thing evil thing riki of death you saw it's caliper and bore he's really tired he's exhausted. He's been project managing. It's been very tough for him. Yeah. It definitely wasn't me. I'm hot. It was your boss. He's tired. It was him. Um, he talks about wanting to heal Caleb. I wasn't going to tell you because I wanted to heal Caleb Rambore first before I told you, right? That's, that's his favorite word. And then it gets really fucking evil as far as I'm concerned. Because he goes,

how strange. When the light caught your hair for a moment, you seemed her perfect likeness. Who? Why, Lady Galatriel, of course. Evil. Shit. From Sauron. Okay.

We're going to parse this. What's your immediate reaction to this? I just once again have to kind of fess up to the fact that I would fall to the dark side in the presence of Sauron because, honestly, I'm like listening to it. I'm just like, it feels really good to hear him say Galatriel again. I know. I'm in. I know.

It's so good. I liked, this is, again, a constant, but I'm really enjoying getting to observe it in so many different forms. His lies are always rooted in the truth. So when he's saying, we'll get back to Galadriel and her beautiful hair in a second, but like when he's saying, when he's kind of spinning the caliber and bore lie, right? And he's saying the toll that creation has exacted from him and crafting the three in the three the seven has left him diminished vulnerable to the shadow. First of all, of course, diminished shadow.

Like this is pinging a lot of key, a real like Lord of the Rings word cloud for us here. But he may be lying about that flaming, reeking form being yellow brimbor. But he's not lying about the fact that this is taking a toll on him, that he has proven susceptible. Just like later when he is manipulating him, he's doing it by appealing not. to a thing that has to be manufactured out of thin air,

but to the genuine root of the ambition that drives Calibran Bore that has driven him to this point and will drive him further. So that's just great to watch. The Galadriel moment, I'm like, this show in a way that I love has me in such a fucked up headspace with the Halbrand-Galladryl relationship.

I know. Which I insanely and horrifyingly kind of continue to ship. What is wrong with me? I'm with you. I know. There are dozens of us. We're not alone here. There are.

When he's saying this, it is so irrefutably, objectively, undeniably clear that he is working, Merdania, that he is trying to play on her very apparent attraction to him, right? Like, all right, you offer me, you offer to bring me a shawl. Can you help bring me the nine? Like, how short can the distance between those two things be, right? Yeah. The fact that, actually, this is a question I have, like,

because he enters as Halperin, she sees him in that state, now he's Anatar. Kella Brimbor was the only one who witnessed, like, that transformation into that form. Are we supposed to assume, though, that Mardania at a minimum, forget maybe all the other spins, but that Mordania at a minimum is, like, I know who you were before your prior form? I have to believe it. otherwise she's so dumb because like the wig is wigging and the makeup is good and the accent's good but that's Charlie Vickers. So like yeah so in a way I think that actually helps in this scene because then you're like

everyone was sort of like what's going on with these two right with Hal Brandon Galadriel and so then if he's telling you if you're into him and you want to fuck him and he's telling you that you remind him of her you're like yes right so there's that. Amen. But then there was a part of me that's like I felt like he even though he's working a game meant it? Like there was a look in his eye of like, well, if I can't have the exact thing

I want, maybe here's the next best thing. And like, how can we not think of our beloved law? Knock off Galadriel. That's so sad. Galadriel light, it is sad. It's obviously devastating. But it felt, it did feel present in this moment. And like the fact that, you know,

he made his big like pitch to Galadriel and the eye, I see no difference. and we'll rule together and we'll dominate and I'll bind you to the, you'll bind me to the light. There was a draw. The draw was genuine, no matter what other thing was unfolding. When they looked at each other on that log, the thing that we felt and the thing that they felt was there.

It doesn't mean other things weren't there, but that was there. And so, like, it feels like it's still there. And I like that because we've seen that from Galadriel, the way that he is, like, haunting her mind. And so knowing that she is such a presence for him still, too, and, you know, as you've noted, like, the passages in the trilogy of, like, his eye always seeking her, like, that's not, that's not going to change.

Like, I know. It's for hundreds of years. Yeah. And it makes us, some of us, really excited to see them in a scene together again. What is it going to happen when Colladryl and Sauron are back together again? Okay. It's cool to have to wait for that. Thank you, exactly.

It's cool to have to wait for both of those. It is. Okay. The fact that he's talking about her hair. specifically is pretty fucked up and here's why. Here's some passages about Galadriel's hair specifically that are important.

It's very famous her hair. Her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother, a mother name, Indus, but richer and more radiant for its gold was touched by some memory of the star

like silver of her mother and the Eldar said the light of the two trees had been snared in her tresses from the unfinished tail. So she's got the light of the two trees of Valinor in her hair. No big deal. She also, as we find out later, keeps staggers in her hair. Pretty sick.

Pretty cool. Also, Gimley's request of a strand of her hair in Laugh-Lorean of Galadryl's hair, he calls it, quote, a pledge of goodwill between the mountain and the wood until the end of days, which is an echo of the earlier rhetoric of the doors of Dorian. but just like Galadriel's golden hair to say to Mardania you're, I'm just, it's so mean. It's so mean to poor Mordania

who is just, anyway, moving on. Any excuse to talk about the love story between Galadriel and Hallbrand? Why, of course, we will take it. This email comes from Tim and he says, I think much of season one gallon Hal's attraction is driven by what each can get from the other. This is what Mallory is alluding to.

Tim writes, Galadriel forgets about him completely in Numenor until she sees him as a path to redemption. Halbrain is set on continuing his smithing for power until Galadriel gives him an army. Their attraction is what they want from the other, the Greek eros, desiring the other for your own sake. This comes to a head on the log, phrasing Tim, when Adar has held the mirror up to Galadriel and she's seen how much her vendetta has corrupted her. Her response is a desire for Halibrand to avoid corruption. And for the first time she's expressing her care for him for his own sake, not for what he can do for her. Or, as Mal would put it, due to her. Thank you, Tim. She cares for his good, which is the Greek agape, desiring what's best for the other for their own sake. Selfless love that for Tolkien as a Catholic is modeled on Jesus

on the cross. In the finale by the river, I think maybe even on the log, we see Halbran is still driven by this eros desire for what she can do for him. And that's certainly how he remains in the fellowship when Galadriel says his eye always seeks her. But I think it's really interesting to think about how this one moment of loving

Sauron for his own sake continues to impact Galadryl. One, as we see her in the books, and two in the rest of the show, Gilgallic emphatically correcting her when she calls him Halbran instead of Sauron seems to suggest she can no longer be trusted to separate

Saran, who she instinctively hates as soon as she finds out who he is by the river, from Hal Brand, who she still is a tender spot for and may still think of someone as someone she can save. I loved that. Fantastic. Tim.

Fantastic. And there's like a mirror then on the way that she talks about how her own company could no longer distinguish her from the evil that she was fighting and like the parallels there. Very interesting. Love it. Meanwhile, baby DSU may be called her.

Earlier Doren Jr., the prince himself, hits Caliborne with an exquisitely arched, skeptical eyebrow. When he's like, oh, there's nothing different, maybe have you looked to the ringmaker, your friend Anatar, who's up at top of that tower right now, sort of looming and leering at us? Is there maybe something wrong with him? We got his other email from Brianna, which I really loved, that was sort of in response to our conversation about whether or not the friendship bonds between Elrana and Duran could be what is protecting both of them from influence, Anatar's influence, the ring's influence.

Brianna wrote, I wanted to give you both a little insight into something we call, quote, protective factors in the clinical mental health counseling world. Strong, positive interpersonal relationships are the best protective factors, meaning something that reduces the likelihood of a negative outcome, against serious mental illness, relapse, suicide, and addiction. Well, I think this is something humans have always known about relationships. We now have the science to prove that it is indeed accurate. Brianna attached a bunch of scientific studies to her email.

So thank you, Brianna, for that. But power friendship seems a very facile thing to say. But in a story that is both a prequel that is centering on this idea of alliance, the prequel to a story that is centering on this idea of fellowship and that only together we can defeat Sauron, this idea, this unshakable bond between Duran and Elrond, I think is, I like the idea of it being a thing that is protecting them. What do you want to say about this Anitart-Kalibororibor?

Maybe you're the problem in the Dwarven Rings conversation? this was remarkable to watch as one who so masterfully manipulates medals just be mindful someone is not manipulating you you see daggers where there are none and you ignore them until they are right at your throat

this is this is actually like to go right from that that during confronting Kella Brimbor about like are you paying attention to what's happening around you are you seeing clearly to this I like that we're hitting these back to

because which conversations and moments will characters look back on with pride or regret? And what will we feel on their behalf? And during clocking that something's up with Anatar puts him in really rare company here.

Yeah. Whereas like, this is just brutal for our guy, Kelle-Rembor. Brutal. The genius of us watching Saran

literally a shapeshifter. So like calling him a chameleon doesn't even feel sufficient but the way that he is able not just he but his agenda can hide in plain sight like this and that he can describe to a T what he is doing to Calibroonbor

without having Calabrimbor say maybe I should find a way to like extract myself from what is unfolding here and then we get that conversation about spirit about what actually happened, about deceit working its way into the ring.

These are matters of spirit as much as craft. And this time we brought deceit into the process. And then he talks about the letter. The letter that we conveniently heard read aloud in this episode because it had been so long since we had thought about it. On the heels of this conversation about manipulation, this really brilliant bit of manipulation from Saran playing out immediately like making Kelo-Brimbor.

choose, making him opt-in actively complicit once again. He's not just the passenger. Saran's not allowing him to just be the passenger. He keeps making him put his hand on the wheel. And that is so insidious, right? It's like, it's so painful for us to watch because there's moment. It's not just one mistake. There's like time after time, moment after moment where Kellebrun-Bor keeps going.

He keeps going. and it's horrible. He's like admitting when he's talking to Duren, he's like, you're wrong, there's no way the rings are perfect. Get the fuck out. Don't you know who I am? Don't you know that I'm going to catch Fayanor one day? But then as soon as he's back inside, he's like,

something is wrong. Like the rings are tainted. And then Sauron leans into that with the like, the we, right? Like I didn't do it. We did it so that he makes him actively complicit. And I think the spirit line was just one more thing I want to call out because this is the other side of that conversation we had.

I can't remember when. A couple pods ago, a couple weeks ago, years ago, whenever it was. About like, oh, okay, when will we see the specific particular powers of the rings manifest? This is like the soft fantasy summed up for all its brilliance and beauty, right? Spirit. Like you put into it something that we understand on an emotional level. but we will never define beyond that.

And, like, that's not only okay, it's probably good. And so I liked that we got a moment, actually, in the show that acknowledged that. I have a quick question for you. I love that. I have a quick question for you. Yeah. Do you think early on in their partnership, Anitre tried the – your hair reminds me of galadry the line on Caleb Brinville.

Maybe. It's definitely possible. I mean, this guy does like flattery. That was the other genius stroke here. he's like you probably should go to linden like right away and tell gill that you fucked up because what what does he know caliburn more's response is going to be no he's never going to let me look again yeah he's like his ambition his need to forge and to do something great not only that has an impact but that is remarked upon by others is the driving force in his life anitar has done that so many

times sauron has done that so many times i can't wait to see it not work uh i'm sure it will at some point but like earlier when he's like oh I'll just leave uh when he was down to the courtyard and still looking like halber and he's like oh I'll just go and they're like no no don't go you know uh he's like oh you should just go to linden you know like yeah doran's called him on his shit but I just want him to like be in the middle of leaving a room being like oh I'll just go and I'll be like okay bye bye thanks for stopping by can you return the shawl after you launder it please yeah thanks um you don't get to use our faulty umbrella even as you go okay so Duran tries one more time with his dad.

And I love this. What I love about this is we had the return of the collar, the reinstatement, the thing that, you know, surely Duran wanted something that Sauron himself predicted. Maybe this will be the healing of the rift between you and your father. I like the rhetoric of we hear at the beginning of the episode, King Duran asks his son for his axe. And he means it literally. give me your axe so I can make a home as well. So I can bang into this foundation wall. Here he asks for it metaphorically, right?

I need your axe by my side. And, you know, of course we're thinking of Gimli and you have my axe, etc., etc. Of course, that's on our mind. But this idea of like what that means, how his loyalties are split. You know, El-Rond, again, El-Rond, if he ever comes back in the picture, is going to be like, these rings are bad. What is Doreen going to choose? He chose Dioran in season one.

Here Disa exacts a promise from him that he'll never ever wear the rings. There's just like a lot of people pulling on him in different directions. And I'm curious to see where all of that goes. Yeah. Yeah. This was also great.

The promise like that Disa pulls from him swear he walks in with him. She's just like, what the fuck, dude? She's like, oh no. Unbelievable. and makes him swear that he will never wear one of the rings and he does. And I think, okay, regardless of whether he can follow through on that vow, what I love about this is that it reminds us, like, what you're citing about this thing

that he wanted from his father, the rings are not the only temptations. And we have to remember that. People are tempted by other things too. And his father's approval and acceptance and more than that pride, right, acknowledgement that his son was able to see something that he wasn't is like the dearest that's the gem that's the jewel for baby d and so of course he allows his father to put that back on his chest and walks into his home feeling a little bit ashamed but also like he got a thing he dearly craved like the ring might not be the temptation for him we'll find out but this is other jewelry is

a beautiful shirtman necklace guy yeah we should note that when we enter that scene when we first see Disa. Similar to the way we see King Dorent, the start of the episode, we see her through a hole in the wall ensnared, trapped somewhere. So I'm just very, we both remain very

concerned for Disa. Last but not least, and then we're going to leave Aragian and the dwarves for the island life of Numenor. Caliburma makes a really sad speech. We heard part of it at the top of this episode. He turns on

his smiths, right, who Sauron has already been working their opinions of Kalebrun Borr, but he's lashing out at them. Was it your hubris, your sloth, all of this sort of stuff that got us in trouble? We need to redeem ourselves. His guilt feels very, very Catholic to me. Anatar is thrilled. Sauron is thrilled. You could step in and be good cop to Caleb Rambor's bad cop.

and I just love how we've gone in the span of an episode from like let's just think back to the doors of Duran party which was just mere scenes ago. The way in which Sauron is all about fracturing, destabilizing fellowship and alliances, he's done so successfully with Elran and Galadriel, who are at each other's throats this season, the team of Disa Duran and Papa Duran. And then here with Caliborne, his ringsmiths, who were once unfailingly loyal to him. and now are the enemy. And this is how he wins, is division and strife. So it's just probably like, we haven't yet gotten to the trailer shots of Kelle Brimberg completely melting down, but we're on the path and I am loving, frankly, every second of it like him.

Did you see the preview photo for this episode on Amazon site? No, is it him like His hands up? Fantastic. It should be. That's great. I have no notes. Yeah.

The textbook projection that is on display here. My guy, Calibrimpour, really needs some management training. The muttering and murmuring of his team, like, what the fuck? What the actual fuck? Yeah. Lord Calibrimpore. And the way that, like, he is so. emphatic and decisive about what he is asking them to do and what they need to do.

And then quivering and falling apart the second that he goes up to his like, like Brooklyn loft up here. It's like, oh, I like this layout. His corner office. Wonderful. And he can hear. Like he can hear what Anatar is saying to them and surely what they are like whispering about him. And so it's all falling apart and unraveling in a way that he is, again, tracking and feeling in real time.

and yet it's too late. Like, would you say Joanna Robinson here on House of Ar that sin begets sin? This is so sin begets sin what we're watching here. Like he admits that they did something wrong, that something went wrong with a seven. How are you going to redeem that? How are you going to redeem the entire project? And what is the project represent? His entire life's work.

His sense of worth, his legacy, the marquee's going to leave on the world. The nine will fix it. The old stealth deeper. Oh, no. The nine will fix it. It'll be fine. Let's go down to Numeron. I would love to.

And we're going to start with this dozy of a speech from Argyne Farazan. Can we hear it? You ever seen it? Across our western seas. The white tower of Arresil. Only gateway to the undying lambs. I have not. Only the keenest I can.

And only from the peak of the Menel Tarwa. I reckon the elves placed it there on purpose So that every sunset serves as a reminder That our days must end And this will not High we climb Some things will be forever withheld from our grass Fucking Camden

Woo! I have not I have not I have not We hate that guy Okay The what have you ever seen it across our western seas The White Tower of Erysaam we were just talking about this Boromir quote from the movie Fellowship of the Ring, not the book.

When movie Boromir says, have you ever seen it, Aragorn, the White Tower of Echthelian, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, its banners caught high in the morning breeze, etc. So of course we're meant to be thinking about Boramir in this moment. That's Boramir. Movie Boramir stealing from a book Pippin, by the way. Yeah, this idea, by the way, this idea of like taking a line someone else said and having another character say it, Peter Jackson's death all the time. That was one of his favorite moves. So, you know, something to think about.

But Eresaya, right? Like, what is this place Eresaya? So glad you asked. Eresaya, aka the lonely island. Shout out to Andy, Akiva and Jorma. But this is, this is as Farazan says, the last stop on the way to Valenor, right? The elves live there.

No men allowed, please. shrouded a mist in secrecy. The main city of Erescia is called Avalone, is how I would try to pronounce it. And Tolkien loved his British myths. And so this is the Arthurian legend inside of him jumping out with calling a city on an island shrouded in mists that men cannot get to Avalon. or Avalon. We talked about Avalon a lot, the Isle of Avalon a lot in House of the Dragon. We were talking about the Isle of Faces, another mysterious island shrouded and misted mystery that most mortal men cannot approach. So this is a very, it's a recurring George R. Martin's done it.

Tolkien's done it, et cetera, et cetera. There used to be a much friendlier relationship between Erescia, Avalone, and Numeror. But I would say, if I had to guess, I would say it's this straight up years and years and years of elf racist behavior on Numenor that caused a strain between these two entities. That's a reasonable read. Yeah. Quote, even when Tarr Palantir, and that's Mariel's dad, even when Tarr Palantir took the scepter and wished again for friendship with the elves, they did not come. And Abilane was veiled in cloud out of his sight. So eventually.

things will get so bad that the gods will be like, you know what, this island should not be in, people should not even be able to see this. Let's just snap it out. We're going to pop it into the unseen, unplodable. Pop into the unseen world, essentially. Eventually, when they do that,

when they make the island unplodable, you can only get to it if you follow a very specific direction, which made me think a lot about lost. The island on Lost, You have like specific bearings in order to get there or else you'll never find it. And that's our monthly mention of lost on this podcast. Frankly not enough.

I don't think we can make it weekly. Anything you want to say about Eresa or this concept of the lonely island? I just thought that this little speech from Paris on was incredible. just riveting. But Farazan longing for immortality definitely not alarming and certainly not giving us Tom Riddle making horror crux or she palpeteen

becoming dartsidious vibes. Like no, nothing worrying about this at all. I thought that the on purpose line was so striking because it's not, it's like all of the alarm signs are here, right? Like, it's not just that he's longing for something that he does not currently possess. It's the resentment and the jealousy. So he's preparing greed and ambition, unnatural ambition with something that makes Stephen Fowler. Natural, the greed.

So, like, this, we are just, we are seeing the exact thing that Calibor describes and fears. Like this is the covetous nature of men. And so then it's like, as you're noting, it gives us the specific inside of Numenor and these factions glimpse into like what is, what is fueling this rift

between the faithful and the, and the Kingsman. But it connects then nicely to the other character sets as well. Kemen, just a complete dipshit. I couldn't hit him more, honestly. I couldn't possibly hit him more. He's got, more damage to do, obviously, in this episode.

Okay. I find fair use of sunset language intriguing given during speech. We talked about this about pitying humanity for being shackled to the sun, right? I reckon the elves place that they're on purpose of that. Every sunset serves as a reminder that our days must

end and theirs will not. Men need to mark the passage of time and away the elves don't. Right. Okay. Kemen asks about the sceptor. And we're going to talk about the scepter again in the spoiler section. was, as you recall, the name, the co-title, the co-star of one of the titles of the episodes,

the Eagle and the Scepter. They don't have crowns on Numerur. They grasp a scepter. That's how they gain power. That's the whole thing. So it's essentially he has the crown. He's got the scepter. He's got the power.

Kemen's like, is that not high enough? You know, is that not high enough for you? Got the scepter. Is that not high enough? I like this contrast of the dwarves delving deep and the Numenorians grasping upwards. Yes. going trying to no one is content with the level that they are at in this world and uh you know they're either either up or down but they're like this this the status quo is not is not for me

right Kevin here then does something that deeply disturbed me to my core which it absolutely sounded like he was about to break out into song and I just want to cite one of my favorite Monty Python bits from Holy Grail where there's this like young lordling who keeps trying to burst into song and the music swells and that his father stops him. He's like, nope, nope, none of this. No singing here. This is what Kevin says, this scepter is what you make it. The age of men is upon his father. Let us take it. I was like, how is this not, how are we not breaking into song in this moment? Um, man. But Kevin, I hate you. And my hatred for you is stronger than my love for musicals. So sit all the way. Um, I have great news for you, which is

Kemen's father says to him in the very next moment thanks for the encouragement. By the way, your mom always thought something horrible what's going to happen to you. She always thought you're pretty shitty. When you were at her breast, your mother prophecy

that you would come to ill ends. My mother? My mother? What did she say? Impressed me in the task that I'm about to place upon you and I will tell you fail to do so, and I shall have to find other places to make use of you.

We will be circling back to this, certainly. In addition to everything that's on our minds here with Kemen and Farisana and Newmanore, though, it made me think of that durand-durin conversation from the penultimate episode last season when your mother bore you something inside you as ill-formed, right? And then he builds toward like the vision that he had

of, I saw upon a great gray beard of an old dwarven gang. Right? And he's like, he finds strength and encouragement in that. And Farisand is like, your mom always thought that you were going to just like suffer some great, terrible thing. The relationship between these two is just absolutely fascinating to me. We continue to have a lot of notes for the parents of Numenor. I love, again, in Tolkien, it's always like, your dead mom who doesn't have a name thought this about you. The moms, they're all dead. including Bronwyn, and most of them don't have names.

Okay. Let's go to Muriel and Alentil. I actually want you to ISO on this. Like you, this is your time to shine. Tell me what you felt about are soon to be no longer C-Capt, a Seagard captain and his not quite queen, Muriel. So when I take notes on the episodes, you know, in a Google Doc, you have like the little, you can have like the outline on the side.

If you set like an H3 or an H-2 or an H-1, you can like quickly find it. So I always like make little labels for each single. for myself so I can quickly navigate if we pop out of order I need to find something right and what I wrote for this one was numinor colon Kevin and Farazahn plot and scheme Oendiel and Muriel somehow do not fuck that was like the summation of this to me and the thing that I took with it we go to Miriel

up in the tower listening to the townies just still chanting Farazan out of the street like fucking fanatical weirdics I have to imagine that Bellsigar, who we shamefully do not see this episode, he gets a mention, but yeah. He gets a mention, but I have to assume that he's just been out there 24-7, like,

keeping up the chant for Farazan. I mean, I hope so, because otherwise I'm like, don't these people have, like, anything else to do? Wild. Yeah. So Alendial is trying to encourage her, right? Valendial told me that in the old quarter, they're still

saying prayers for you, and like, the Seagard, they're loyal, just unite us. and give us a charge and we're here for you our queen. He's not ready to give up. And she goes to him and reaches out and puts her hand on his chest. And I said to myself and then to you via text message, just move the hand down a little bit. Like just to like a little bit.

She does migrate from the chest. She goes from the chest to the abs. That's like that's the journey. that the hand goes on. And Mallor's like, Loa. Loa. So he's like, he looks at it and she's like, you know, waiting. And then as soon as she pulls the hand away, the first time, as you noted it goes back,

he's like, had just started to reach for it. Wonderful stuff. Then he says, beautifully, it was you who opened my heart again to the way of the faithful. We swore to keep serving. Again, beautiful. And then he says, now you wish to be still while the wolves are licking the cradle. and everyone watching at home is like, we just want you to lick her cradle.

Come on. You're so important to me, Mallory. You're so precious to me. One fun fact about wolves licking the cradle, by the way, is I was like, that's quite the phrase. Is that something the writers in the show came up with? And a fun thing that happens sometimes, because we do have screeners for these episodes

so we get to watch them a couple days before other people. Sometimes you have a screener for something and you like want to Google something for it. It doesn't yet exist in the wider world. Right. So I googled wolves looking at the cradle and Google was like, no, no, nothing. Nothing. This doesn't exist yet.

If I Google it today, Thursday, it will pop up something you do with rings of power. But it just like was giving me nothing. I was like, that's fun. And again, it's just like fun, fun bit of a language from our writers here. She asks him what he saw in the Palant. here before it like blew him back or whatever. And we get a vision, a vision of his vision. We'll talk about this a little bit more in the spoiler section.

But he does have a new sword in that vision, something worth noting. So pay attention. Then we get this like, I mean, he needs a new sword, as Mallory pointed out to me earlier, because he's handed over his old sword along with the rest of the sea guard. I'm sorry, anything else you want to say about Muriel and Elendio. I'm so sorry. You were on a roll. You were talking about wolves looking at the cradle.

Anything else? I like them had finished. No, I guess, I mean, we should talk maybe for a minute about what she says to him about the new path, right? Change to a new path. Farisans' kingship is a part of that path. And so are you? Because he doesn't know yet what he has seen. But she's like, you didn't see what I have been seeing what has haunted me.

Giant wave? Right. No big wave? Okay. She perceives this and positions it as good news. And we've been talking since season one when we heard, you know, all of the like, it is Numeror's future you saw and it has already come to pass. The visions begin with your arrival conversations.

Muriel and Numeroyer, like this is an interesting lens into this idea of like what is fixed, what is predetermined, what choices can you make that can potentially determine a different outcome. but also when you start to consciously think about that, do you risk maybe bringing about a thing that you're trying to avoid? This is like classic. We talk about this all the time with Circe and a million characters. Like this is like Prophecy 101. Yeah.

And so, you know, we talked in season one about like the Galadriel passage or conversation with Sam actually in fellowship, right? The famous, some never come to be unless those that behold divisions turn aside from their path to prevent them the mirror's dangerous as a guide of deeds. So, independent of any actual outcome, it's like, Muriel is a character who falls into this mirror, palantir, whatever the case may be, guide of deeds. Muriel is always thinking about what she has glimpsed or maybe what someone else has glimpsed and what that tells them about the future.

And that is a dominant force behind the choices that she makes. And that is, as Galadriel told us, a dangerous thing. don't ever have the ability to totally understand what you're seeing or why or how any choice you or another person makes is going to inform the future. I think Palantir visions especially seem like insidious little traps. So I wouldn't give any advice based on what I saw on a Palantir, but I'm not Muriel and who we just watched completely fumble her entire birthright. So, you know. Okay. Meanwhile, the sea guard are being stripped of their status, the faithful, you know, Ellen is like, don't worry.

Volondiel says they still have your back. And the evils little dipshits on the island, Kevin and Eeyarian, in matching shitty little sashes are here to disband the Seagard. And like the way that Eeyarian is just like pivoted to full like Hitler youth. like I don't even know how to describe it anyway she's just cartoonishly evil and she's like I wanted to tell you and she says like they were going to charge you the treason this is the compromise I got I talked bell's cigar down to stripping you of your entire life's work they were going to charge you the treason and she's like BTW Vlandiel look at a little bit like Merdania cozing up to Anatar she's like clutching at Volondial's arm and I hate to say it. I think that's why he doesn't survive the episode because

Kevin's face when he sees that is like yeah. Yeah, they already had beef, right? Because they had the like near brawl at the pub. But yeah, this felt like it sealed it. Kemen was going to do whatever he had to take Villandale off off the board. Like no matter what. The jealous rage

on his stupid, punchable face. As he watched that moment, it was incredible. I loved that Villandale. in his final moments was not tempted by that offer. Same. What he is tempted by is rewatching Dead Poets Society, Me Too, because he gives us a full-blown,

oh, captain my captain, as Elendiel gives up his sword and walks away. And it's quite beautiful. Lovely. Everybody just getting in on the chant and the salute for our beautiful Elendale. Very moving. I did have I have a note about this moment.

We'll save it for a little later. We'll save it for wig watch. But yeah. Speaking of maybe don't take advice from Palantiers, Farisans looking a little covetously at a palantir. It doesn't seem great to me is what I would say. It doesn't seem like a good combination of mental state and powerful Elf Stone. I would not mix those two personally.

but calamity. Here we are. And then we come to this very sad sequence, right? Where in pursuit of new aqueducts, Kemen has decided to interrupt a religious ceremony where we are mourning are dead. And it is, Elendiel sends a little seashell off into the water. And it's very clearly like his moment to think about a Sealdor who, because we don't have ravens or even.

female in this world he still thinks is dead. Very moving moment. But be honest, what was the more meaningful seashell moment of the season for you? This or cured and shaving. It was the cured in moment.

Yeah. For sure. I didn't love this sequence personally. Kemen, I like to hate Kemen. He seems like beyond like, well, I guess I could see

Joffrey doing it. I don't know. just like when they're like give the old man his relic of the goddess of sadness who cries tears for the dead and he's like oops dropped it i was like really yeah what would be the harm in letting him take it you're going to destroy the shrine anyway but yeah i think there's a combination of just the abject cruelty like he feels big and strong by making other people suffer because he can and then and especially when his father is like i'm just going to keep reminding you that you're small and insignificant and like your own mother thoughts of the terrible was going to happen to.

Your mom thought you were pretty shitty. He has to like find that strength wherever he can. But this also did make me think of the, here's your bolt of cloth, pick which color you want for your coronation that I'm going to steal from you conversation between Farazan and Muriel because not just the like pushing red as like a symbol of embracing the future, leaving the past, racing the future or a leader for a new age. But Farisand literally said, like, we have mourned the dead long enough. It is time we attend to the concerns of the living. So this just feels like the family platform, right? Like, it's about showing that they can bully their way to any end,

but also they actually don't give a shit about these traditions and just about, like, decency. Yeah. Decency? Decentcy. Quick question. I'm not religious. but do you think rinsing the blood off the sword that you just used to stab your romantic rival in water usually used for religious purposes?

Is that bad? Do you think that's not good? It can't simply can't be good. All right, so Alendial is arrested. Volondial, beautiful Volondial is dead. And I'm honestly devastated. Not only because he's dead, but because this. fucker got to kill him?

No. Okay. This just feels like an injustice and not right. The stab in the back I can accept. Yes. The fact that he was seen to hold the Landil's head underwater for even a second is preposterous. Nonsensical. Nonsensical.

Absolutely preposterous. That was actually very weird on the flip side when Landau just snapped his like collar blown and shoulder socket like a chicken wing. And he wailed and wept and screamed and a short. soiled himself, that felt right. That was good. That, yeah, that was real Tyrion slapping Joffery material there. Okay.

Alendiel calling the landial son. Sad. The fact that he got to like hold and cradle him and not a seal door. Who's still alive, so it's fine. As is Derek. Okay. Some rando L stuff to wrap things out. We've done Numenor.

We've done Aregan. We've done Khazad Dume. So we are in the forest. and Lyndon. We mentioned Elam running. We don't need to talk about that anymore necessarily. Gilles Gaila Gis Caliborne Boar's letter. We mentioned that too.

As he's reading it, you hear the spooky ring theme that I'm very good at identifying now playing behind him. Then we get a, we get, the letter proves Scaladule was wrong. Okay. And then later Elmore will run in with a ring and he says colladule was right. Okay. Very confusing. Gil's ring gives him

spooky visions that I thought looked absolutely insane in the context of the visual imagery of the show I thought

they were temp effects sorry not to be rude but like I did oh man you're killing me today but the orcs are in the woods it was such a notably

contrasting visual style was odd It was bizarre because we've seen these like horror images, like flashes before and Galadryl's like that, but not these like the rocks moving and the fish gasping and stuff like that. Anyway, we see orcs in the woods marching towards the camera very house of the dragon finale of them, but we've got three more episodes to go. So that's nice. And then so when Elrond shows up and he's like, I've got the, I'm not wearing the ring, but I've got the ring. And Galadry was right. Gil Gally correctly says Sauron is the architect of

all this and quote, our armies cannot defeat both Adar and Sauron, not alone, fellowship alliances. I was so confused by this. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but I found this very odd. Both the Elrond who like,

as we talked about previously, like issues the most withering indictment of Galadriel the date when they parted, and then he comes in and he's like, she was right. Now, like, literally right about the army marching toward oregian.

Yes, but I don't know, this felt in terms of theme and tone, like, weird to me, but then I was just actively confused about. I actually didn't understand what our guy Gil was, like, talking about or saying here, because But they already sent their forces to Mordor. Yeah, because of the commander who was like, the letter. The letter, so let's go to Mordor. She's been pushing the let's go to Mordor agenda for a few episodes, but like, does he think that's where Sauron is.

Because they had one spy report that said that Sauron was there. But this is what I didn't understand about this. Because Elrond is like, Galadriel was right. Doesn't he mean about Sauron being in Auregian? Or just that was more Eregeon being under... Well, I think what he's saying, we saw orcs in the wood,

so Adar is on the march towards Eregian. Because Galadriel, the thing that she was saying was like, I don't think he would stay in Mordor. Oh no, Galadriel's like Sauron did everything. That bridge, that's... Saran. The Barowitz, that's Saran. Everything is Saran. So I'm not saying he's, I don't think he's thinks that's correct, but that there's a threat to Oregon. Okay. But who's, I mean, I don't disagree with you. I found all of this a bit muddled.

But I think the idea is they think they have to fight a war on two fronts. When in fact, Saran has manipulated it. So it's actually just one front. So. Right. Yeah. Yes. That's where we are. Yes. Galadios in the York camp. What? Gil, just like glimpsing the future and just seems very unmoored by what he is seeing. I don't know what to tell you about Gilgallet, but I do want to hear what you have to say about Galadriel and Adar. Just, you know, we're only treated to a minute of this, but Galadriel is basically unpacked from a crate. We see, you know, like you said, they're right there.

I mean, they're just, they're staring at Eregion, the orcs. She's unpacked from her crate. Adder walks in to interrupt his orc generals from trying to kill her. Yeah. And honestly, genuinely, he looked great again. I was like, I can't believe it. I thought this might be a fleeting thing, but it's not. And then Galadriel gets the upper hand and kind of like spins him, like almost like twirling him in a dance.

and he just like leans right into it and turns to her and is like I brought you here not as a prisoner but as an ally for we share a common enemy and uh I shouted kiss because it was just so intimate I I love you and I support you in all endeavors and I can hang with this idea that Adar is like an attractive looking uh Uruk general if you want was gorgeous again what do you think that smells like that's my question to you. How do you think his dental hygiene is? So fair question and a good note.

However, we did hear canonically in this episode from Medania that Saron smells like reeking death. Yes. So, you know, who's smelling great right now on the break of war? Okay. So Adar, if you are any, just a single step below reeking of death, you're in with Mallory. All right.

And that does it for our deep time. We're going to end it there. We've got wig watch and a spoiler section to do. I'm really excited for a wig watch today. I mean, I always am, but I'm particularly excited today. Let's just roll right into it. Let's do wig watch. Will you wear wigs?

Okay, we mourn Valandiel's curls. We celebrate Elron's wind-tousled curl. Just extraordinary stuff from Rob Arameo, and I actually think that's just his hair. looks great. Alendial. Hear me out. Wait, hear me out.

Okay? An extremely handsome man. Yeah. I would love to see. I don't mind the shape of the wig. I would like to see a few strands of silver in that hair. This is a very, he's just like got a very weather beaten face and the contrast between his face,

which is handsome, but has seen some things. And the like, just for men quality deep brown of his hair. is throwing it off for me and I'm just like put some silver in there and I think we're set. Okay. Let me tell you something. I know. You think I'm in now? Yeah.

If they do that, I don't know if you should let me pot. Like, I have a career to protect. I thought you were going to say that it's like too voluminous and clean, which I was prepared to agree with because, you know, this is the Aragor and. comp of like he's never hotter than when he's saturated and fucking filthy. Well, he's about to head to jail. So let's see what happens to the wig in jail, shall we? And then it's important for me that you all know that yes,

Mallory sent me a photo of Muriel rubbing on the pecks and abs of a lead deal. That was her contribution to our text chain this week. I sent her several zoomed-in photos of the Anatar wig hairline this week because it was I feel like they keep changing the wig and the one they had this week was very special. It was like it's a very high widow's peak. But the peak itself, which is like I think what you call the like pointy part at the bottom, that's the peak right? Was like squared off.

I don't understand what was happening at all. Charlie Vickers, exquisite. it doing a great job i like the blind wig i like how it gets a little tousled i think it's great the hair line is continues to baffle honestly so that's all i have to say in wig watch should we zoom through some spoilers let's do it you've heard of the last alliance of elizabeth can i interest you in a pre-alliance um i just want to shout out something that we haven't really talked about which is like clearly the sack of regian is around the corner Right?

The orcs are at the gate. The wolves are leaking at the cradle. The orcs are at the gate. If only. If only. And I just want you to know because we're like, where's our Elrond and Durran moment? Yeah. This is what I want you to know from unfinished tales.

Quote, Elrond would have been overwhelmed at the Saccharivian, but the host of Sauron was attacked from the rear. For Durin sent out a force of dwarves from Khazerun. a doom, yada, yada, yada, yada, Elrond gets away, yada, yada, yada, establishes Rimbledel, yada, yada, yada. Sauron tries to take his revenge on the doors, but, quote, the gates of Moria were shut

and he could not enter. So two things I'm excited about. One, Duran saving Elron's ass at Eregia, and I think that's going to make me cry. And two, the doors of Mori, the doors of Duran being shut

in Sauron's face. Maybe if he'd pay him, closer attention at the party. He could have gotten the password from Narby, but I don't think he did. And it's a word he doesn't, it's a word he uses often friend, but he doesn't know the meaning of. So, yeah, truly, I love it. Yeah, I've been holding on to that little tiny moment in one of the trailers, like, I need your ex. Exactly. And that's what I want to note Duren saying, give me your axe and I need your ex like twice in this episode. And then Elron's going to show up and be like, I need your ex.

Yeah. Okay. I love it. Noree and the Shire, this is nothing to do with today's episode, but I've been sort of like perseverating on it to use a favorite Malarubin word since last week's episode. So this idea that Nori will leave the Harfuts and the stores to the Shire and found the Shire is very much like, we love this idea as Nori's purpose. But thinking about Poppy sort of cozyed up with her new boyfriend, not Ruf. and like will that's the Sam comp so then Norie has always has been the Frodo comp Frodo saves the shire but not for him so my question to you Mallory is like if they found the shire do you see does this show end with Nori happily ever after in a hole in the ground or does she not get to have that um it's devastating to contemplate but I I think I think I'm in the

same place, it feels like that's what we're heading toward. And that will be the joy and the tragedy of Norrie's story, going out into the world and finding a new appreciation for the thing she had and a desire to root that and protect the people that she loves and give them the ability to feel safe and to feel like they have a place that is their own. And then to not get to share in that. Yeah. Oh, my God. Uh. that's going to be crushing. I hope they hang a little egg corn on the door in her honor. On her behalf.

Okay. No worry. Let's talk more about your guy, Elendale. Yeah. And the Allendalee. The Allendale is the name of, like, it's another word for the faithful, because he said, like, Elendale means Elfred, right? So Alendalee is just, like, the name of the group of the faithful.

But it is also, like, sort of what you refer to as the people who leave Numenor with Elendiel. And so he will take the faithful. with him off Numenor before everything goes to complete shit there. And this, oh, Captain, my Captain moment, like, very much underlines this idea that there are people who will follow Alendial off the, to a different continent entirely. A couple things he takes with him when he goes. Some Palantir, Narsal, a new sword. We're going to talk about the vision in a second.

But he takes the scepter with him. And I just really like how much they're underlying, like, how important the scepter is to, is to Farazahn. And guess who gets to keep it? It's Alendiel gets to take the scepter with him to the new world. And it will wind up in that creepy little Alendale museum that Elrond has at Riverndale, like, along with the Shards of Narsal, the scepter will be there. So, yeah. They, you know, we've talked since the beginning of the series about how there was a lot of excitement and anticipation for Numeror. It hasn't always been the most successful aspect of the show.

I think we're getting to a stretch where they are really doing a good job of setting up the future of these characters and we have like our mystery right in our intrigue and our theory fodder with like well I'm assuming the thing that Kemen's mom saw was him becoming a ring rate like that just feels like even more fuel for the the theory fire there but like that Farazahn sequence the longing and covetous need I mean

the Newman Orients have long lives already and he's like, it's not enough for me. Saran being like, why don't you just go attack Valnor and just like take immortality for yourself and then everything going to fucking shit? They're doing a really good job of preparing us for that. And of course, like what you're saying here with Elendiel and the people who are loyal to him,

not because they're told they have to be, but because they actually believe in him. And they have a shared, something shared like, yeah, like it's sacred in their lives that feels like an orienting principle. can all like exist around. Yeah, they're doing, they're doing a nice job with that. His vision, Alendiel's vision is him on horseback with Narsil, riding away from a smoking,

you know, temple on the hill. And this is the shrine, this is the, Sauron shows up and he's like, Farazan, I'm your prisoner, no problem. But have you thought about worshipping Morgoth? And have you thought about sacrificing some burnt offerings to Morgoth made? be. They start with the sacred tree. They burn that to Morgoth. But then they start burning people. Cool shit. It's fine. Don't worry. It's totally fine. Um, so that's, you know, once we start burning people, that's when Alendio's like, time to go. I think it's time to go. I do want to preview something that we might see in season. If season three is Sauron comes to Numenor. Yes. This is what we might see. Quote, a fiery bolt smote the dome of the temple and shore it asunder. causing him to catch fire. The temple, however, was unaffected since Sauron stood atop the dome, defying the lightning and remaining unharmed. As a result, the Kingsmen believed him to be a god

and obeyed him without question. So I'm really excited to see what Charlie Vickers, Newman, or Thunder, Lightning wig looks like. It's going to be a good time. And that's what we can look forward to. Last and not least. Yeah. Ring Wraith Watch, 2024. for. Okay. So when Sauron's talking about who gets the nine, he says, quote, wise is most noble purest of heart from Numeror to Rune, nine ring bears from the nine greatest mortal kingdoms, which is what we've been tracking anyway.

But this is what our listener, Mindy says. I was thinking about Ringwit Watch, and I'm wondering if the show will go, this is follow up on our dwarf question. I wonder if the show will go to the trouble of actually introducing all nine of them. That is a lot of characters. And the show really doesn't have a lot of time to do this. As you said in your mailbag, they can't even show the way the rings slowly take them over. So is it possible they may just show us the Numenorians, maybe one from Rune?

And yeah, maybe Theo or someone else we know. Is it necessary for the storytelling for us to know all nine before they become the ring rates? So where are you sitting with that, Mallory? This feels obviously of a piece with the conversation about the, the seven, but this feels more important to me to get right. I'm glad you made the point you made about like, frankly, the show not like having the impulse that I just voiced and like that the dwarfs are the least important of that group, because that's not how I feel about like they're the, that's a character said I love spending

time with. But in terms of the role of the NASG will play in the story and more broadly than what the weakness and fall of man represents. Like, this is high on the list, I think, of, like, the things they have to nail. So we have to be invested in multiple characters here. I don't know if that means we need to know all nine, but we've got to get, like, I think, a pretty big chunk here. This feels like it could be more equivalent to what's happened with the elves. We're, like, Galadriel is one of the protagonists of the show.

Like, you know, one of the genuine main characters. Yeah. then you have Gil Gallid who's like been in the show a lot he's a regular but as you've noted we actually like haven't spent a lot of time with him or gotten a lot of meaningful time with him and then you have Keardon who basically walked into the story and immediately had the right yeah yeah yeah so like I think there can be something similar playing out across the nine where like a few of them are characters we've really spent time with and a couple of them are ones we've like met and no but like don't really feel invested in and then some are just

like here you are you have a ring now i agree with the email like there's not time to do full immersive arcs for all nine there just can't be but i don't know that we're going to have all nine rings assigned by the end of the season that would actually feel too quick to me do you think certainly not then no i don't think not the season at all but i still don't even know if we have room in even two more seasons to give us the number of mortal men we need to be invested in so yeah yeah uh Kevin, though, seems high on the list. And I got to say, they're not sending their best people if they're sending Kevin to be a ringraith. It's not great.

But the prophecy from his unnamed dead mother does seem to indicate that. Okay. On the Theo beat, though, we got this interesting email from Jean-Pierre. And we talked about this a bit as a theory in season one for other characters, but we're putting it on Theo now. Jean-Pierre says, Theo, he thinks Theo is the king of the men in the mountain who's sworn oath to a Seildor and did not honor it. And a seal door cursed them to not rest. Pause from John Pierre's email.

If you've only seen the Peter Jackson films, that's the green ghosties in Return of the King. Resuming John Pierre's email. This has done so well in my opinion. Theo says to a rondeer, quote, I have promises to keep of my own. I mean, are you kidding me? So much of it fits.

Theo a bit young to be one of the nine, but being there in Pilar, the same lands where Eragorn would later hold their oaths fulfilled on the banks of the undoing. I've never been more sure of anything. Theo is part of the men of the mountain. Maybe Theo and his men will fight with a seal door again later the season. Hagen will die so Esther can be with his Seeldoor.

And at that time, the future men of the mountain will bind themselves to the Numenorians, swear an oath to always be there for a seal door. Then, oops, we actually used to serve Sauron and we can't really fight him. We will flee. So I think this is, I mean, I think especially that line I promises to keep my own is like very good fodder for this idea of Theo. as the ultimate oath breaker in Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. But this idea, the reason they break their oaths is because they are secretly in service of Sauron. It's hard for me to see for Theo, but Theo doesn't know that Hal Brand is Sauron is something that I think is worth noting.

And like fatherless, motherless Theo interacting with Hal Brand, who he thinks is the king and the South, the South and King they've been waiting for, is something I'd be interested to see. I like that too, because if we think back to that, I thought surprisingly powerful stretch of story between Galadriel and Theo, then, like, that was already very poignant, but everything that she said to him, what she was able to, when she was able to encourage him, where she was warning him was born out of her own experience, including with Halbrand. And even though she did not know the truth at that point, right? But just like when you allow like a thing to consume you in full,

upholding Finrod's quest, the pursuit of Sauron, etc. So for Theo to have, for Theo to have some sort of connection to Sauron without really understanding that, that that's what's happening and then have another parallel. a gladrail there would be interesting to me. I agree that the, I have promises to keep was like real, oh boy, Oathbreaker,

Harbinger, men of the mountains, sirens going off stuff. I have actually no interest in trying to like argue against that. I'm compelled by it. The only thing for me here is like, why make the character so young then?

Like that feels. Yeah. It's going to be looking 30, I think, by the time we get to season 4. That's true. I think that I am also not interested in arguing against this. I think it is a really compelling theory.

I think the only thing that would disappoint me is Theo is currently the candidate I'm most interested to see his journey from who he is right now to potential ring race. No one, Kevin, I don't give a shit. And like, you know, the rando's out in ruin, who cares? So like the potential like tragic seduction of Theo into ring wraithhood. But you could still get something similar if, you know, if he falls under Halperin's thrall and that. I do think I promise is in my own to keep and his relationship with the Sealedor, which we saw, you know, suddenly seems very important over the course of like two episodes. You know, I think that's interesting to think about.

Yeah. Absolutely. And the way he was like looking for purpose and understanding. Yeah, and belonging. The Lord of Pilarger. Okay. And you know what? Like, I'll, I'll, I'll undermine my own question about why make him so young then,

because I think you could, you could spin that as, it's ultimately more interesting if, like, different types of people at different points of their life are susceptible to the same yearning. And so, like, it's not like they should all be, like, 37, you know, though I think you're right, he might look 37. I'm not very telling this. Okay. that does it for us we did it we liked this episode television yeah three more episodes to go

we're calamity we're devastated we a lot of people think today because it takes a fellowship it takes an alliance of elves and men's and dwarves to put this podcast together so thanks is always to steven joamy the incredible work that they do and have always done we have this extra video component which just it takes a village so we want to thank um cameron dinwitty for uh is work on this episode, John Richter for his work on this episode, T. Cruz for video supervision, and Arjuna, who's not only, like, producer, extraordinaire who we love, but also is doing, like, video stuff for us now. So Arjuna Rickapal and all this free time. Thank you so much, Arjuna. And we will see you all next week for witches and penguins and rings. Oh my. Bye.