House of R - ‘Secret Invasion’ Episode 1 Deep Dive

Episode Date: June 24, 2023

Who’s a Skrull? Who’s a human? Mal and Jo are here to break it all down as they talk about the first episode of Marvel’s new show, ‘Secret Invasion.’ They start with a little comic and spy craft history (9:15). Then they dive deep into the episode, talking about every character and every twist and turn, including the surprising death at the end (36:18). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Social: Jomi Adeniran Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, media consumers. I'm Brian Curtis. And I'm David Shoemaker. We're the hosts of The Ringers Press Box podcast. Twice a week, we have a free-flowing conversation. We're two old, old friends talk about media and sports and a little politics. Plus interviews with guests like John Crackhauer and Jamel Hill, funny stuff like the overworked Twitter joke of the week. Join us every Monday and Friday on Spotify wherever you get your podcast.

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It's good to have you back, Fury. Is that sincere or you're just covering your bases? You're going to tell me why you abandoned Earth? Building out saber. Traditionally, we tell the truth during our chess games. Maybe that has changed too, though. I don't know. Okay, let's just say I had a crisis of faith.

So why'd you come back? It followed me up there. And I owe it to Telos. You sure you're not talking about someone? else. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back from Sabre, but also to join us here on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me it's bottom shelf piss for me or nothing at all, it's my house of our

Working. Co-host, Joanna Robinson. Molly, a quick question for you. We all know that, like, the tell for Nick Fury, whether or not it's a scroll or Ashley Nick Fury is the way in which he cuts his sandwich bread, right? How he eats his sandwich? Okay. What's your tell?

How do I know it's you? How will I always know it's you and not an imposter? Well, if I tell you, then the imposter will know. That's the problem. I say it out loud now in a podcast. I say to you ask me some obscure fact about Brooks Robinson's gold glove third base defense in the Hades and then the scrolls know that. But why would I know what the answer is?

Do you know what I mean? Like I can't use that test on you. I think for you it's if I'm podcasting with you. Just hit up cram and get some baseball reference links, you know. If I'm podcasting with you and you don't have to take a bathroom break, I'm going to say, that's a scroll. And if you're podcasting... The scrolls are like misty from Yellowjacket's just boasting about their bladder size.

The capacity, yeah. And then if you're podcasting with me and I drink flat water instead of bubbly water, you know that's a goddamn scroll. So, you know... If I'm podcasting with you and you're drinking a caffeinated beverage after the midday point. Yeah. I know something's up. This is a podcast about Secret Invasion.

We have a little. lot to talk about Joe with the Secret Invasion premiere, but before we do that, before we break the news that we don't want any of Carlos's shitty little paintings, Arjuna's shitty little paintings, anyone's shitty little paintings, the shitty little painting, Doc, so cruel. Some quick programming reminders. The feed is buzzing. A lot is coming. Here's a quick snapshot of the week to come. This weekend, Jessica Clemens will have a video breakdown of the Secret of Asia premiere for you. Parsing the implications of a key character reveal in this episode, which I will not specify

because we have not issued our spoiler warning yet. You'll be able to figure it out pretty soon. You can listen to that in audio on any pod platform, but you can watch it. You can watch the video right here on Spotify. So check that out. And also, of course, watch the video on YouTube. On Monday, Jessica will be back along with Ben Limburg for another video game pod. They will be talking final fantasy.

Then on Wednesday, the midnight boys. Pib-p-p-p-you-woo. We'll share their instant reactions to the second episode of Secret Invasion. Their instant reaction on the premiere is, of course, already up waiting for you on the feed if you have not yet enjoyed it. And then next week, at the end of the week,

it's a little bit different than it usually is. Yeah. Barring something unforeseen. I mean, could have changed maybe. At the moment, here's the plan. Joanna and I will be with you on Thursday instead of Friday with our House of our Secret Invasion episode two deep dive because we will be back on Friday with Van for a House of Midnight team up on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny. Have you ever been loved? This is a movie that we all loved and are so excited to talk about together.

So please plan on joining us for that. Joanna, that's a lot. Well, also we have a special guest on that episode. We do indeed. We do. What a time to be alive. It's a robust week in the ring or verse. How can people follow all of that?

Oh, it's a great question, but also should we say what's coming, barring any unforeseen unforeseeables? Yeah. Even this is bald to tease like six pods out, but really only a week out. Oh, God. Do it. Even after Friday, there is a, you know, there's a big holiday coming up where are we taking it off?

No, because we will be here at the top of the following week, allegedly. So my sources tell me. Mallory and I will be covering the last David Tenet season and the specials of Doctor Who. So we're wrapping up the David Tenet era with our third Doctor Who sort of rewatched deep dive episodes. So this is the Donna Noble 10th Doctor run plus three specials that come after it. Plus the Kylie Minot Christmas special, which we haven't talked about yet. So there's a lot, you know, put on. There's a lot going on.

So are you excited, Dr. Who? More 10? I can't wait. I'm so excited. I've had such a blast at the beginning of my Who journey. It's been so, so, so joyous to talk about who with you for the first two pods so far. And I know that this is a particular cherished favorite season, not only of Who, but of TV for you. So not only am I so looking forward to watching the episodes and learning what is so meaningful to you about it.

way to talk to you about it. And here, why this has such an impact on your life. I can't wait. So to make sure that you don't miss a thing, you're going to want to subscribe to all of our socials, right? Why don't you do that? Why don't you follow us on Twitter at Ringerverse? Why don't you follow us on Instagram at Ringerverse? Why don't you follow us on TikTok at Ringerverse? Why don't you make sure you watch Jess's video on YouTube? Why don't you do all those things? why don't you subscribe to that podcast? That way you can be like, whoa, there's another thing today.

Oh, no, there's another thing today. Oh, they're very busy over there. You know, just subscribe and it'll be right there on your podcaster of choice. And then also, of course, you can email us, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We were sort of wondering, you know, leaving up to this big secret invasion event for over a year, for a long time,

we've been doing this secret scrollwash segment on the podcast. And we were sort of idly wondering like, oh, I wonder if we should go back through. And then we were like, no, it's too much work to figure out all the, all the secret scrolls that we picked out of the various properties. One of our listeners, Lauren, emailed us, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com with a comprehensive recap of all of Mallory's picks going back to Eternals. Shocking stuff. And then all of my picks going back to Eternals. So, like, it is a huge list of a lot of my... Including many discussions about shows and movies that have, to be clear, absolutely nothing to do with Marvel.

Zero. Sandman, you know? We love to commit to a bit here at House of the Dragon, Book of BobaFed. It's all in there. So thank you, Lauren, for your exhaustive, incredible work. We may or may not be referring to that list later. We're all definitely going to be talking about. Scrolls, back to you, Mallory Rubin.

The last note at the top, Joe, is that old friendly neighborhood, spoilings. warning, because today's podcast will, indeed, in fact, feature plot points from resurrection, the first episode of Secret Invasion, as well as plot points, discussion points, from the entire MCU run to date, and anything from the history of Marvel Comics is fair game. So if you're not ready to tell the truth during this particular game of chess, please proceed with caution. All right, Joe, Resurrection. This premiere was 55 minutes. As a quick reminder for everybody, this is the first Disney Plus show of phase five. It is the ninth MCU show of the Disney Plus era, the first MCU television show at Disney Plus since last fall, since She-Hulk. It's kind of shocking to think about how long it's been since we've gotten one of these installments. This episode, this premiere is directed by Ali Saleem, written by, by Kyle Bradstreet and Brian Tucker. As always, before we dive into the beat-by-beat chronological episode breakdown,

we're going to start with our opening snapshot. So quick thoughts on episode one. I'm going to do an old, just like an absolutely brazen smuggle here. And amidst my quick thoughts of episode one, love. I'm just going to jam some mini comic history right here for you, right here at the top. For those who you don't know, Secret Invasion is a rather, like, famous, massive massive crossover storyline event from Brian Michael Bendis, ever heard of him? Oh, yeah.

And Lena of, uh, Little Francis U. Uh, that ran from April through December 2008. And this just touched all your favorite heroes, all your favorite events, blah, blah, blah. It was this massive, massive story about. about a scroll invasion. Your most beloved heroes might have been scrolls

for a good long while in the comics. Those heroes could be... Electra, Spider Woman, Hank Pim, Captain Marvel, Mockingbird. Like, that's what we're talking about. By the way, spoiler for the Secret Invasion Comic Book storyline, I suppose I should have said. We had issued a blanket Marvel Comics.

Spoiler warning. It's fair game. Run wild. Politicians that you might write. Barack Obama, John King. Like, real world politicians actually scrolls. So that might come back when we go visit the White House later in this episode. Some major differences, obviously.

Like, there's a few key characters like Tony Stark, who is obviously not in this show, but was a key player in the Secret Invasion event, et cetera, et cetera. In a way. He's always in our... His memory looms large over this premiere, certainly. Yeah. And then, yeah, and Reed Richards. who we haven't met yet, and we don't, we're not repeating Wanda Vision.

Like, we don't anticipate that Reed Richards is just going to show up in an episode of Secret Invasion. So we're dealing with a different set of characters and also different characterization of the scrolls. This is something that goes back to Captain Marvel film, whereas the scrolls in this storyline are just an invasive species looking to conquer Earth. In Captain Marvel, that film, like, sort of played on audience expectations that the scrolls would be villainous and made them instead rather sympathetic refugees.

And, you know, it revealed Carol was being manipulated by the creable, all that sort of stuff. So here then we have a much more complicated, which we love that. We love a villain with a point, right? So we have a much more murkier range of moral motivations here for this particular invasion. And then just one quick story point from the secret invasion comic books that I want to bring up here that may or may not play out on the show. Stop me if you've heard this before, Mallory. A super soldier serum?

Not technically a super soldier serum, but a super soldier serum like substance. So basically the scrolls are shape-shifting to look like some of your Earth's mightiest heroes, but they don't necessarily have the power set of those superheroes. And what they did, there are a few part of the super scrolls. essentially super soldier program to give them superhuman powers or powers of various aliens,

bionic implants, power transmission facilities and satellites were ways that they did it. But eventually it was given to them on a genetic level. And so they no longer needed external power boost. So is that going to be a storyline here? Are we going to see our scroll cell? group because there are some little moments, little Easter eggs, little like in the background things of things, you know, heists that are happening. So is this, is this their larger goal? Yeah. I mean, we should say, in case anyone is wondering, we have not seen anything beyond

this first episode. Joe, I have only seen the first episode and the trailers just operating on the same playing field there. We know nothing beyond what we have seen here in the trailers. The things, I think like there's been a little bit of a discussion point after the premiere of, oh, is the adaptive plan and the mapping going to maybe hue less closely to the comics arc than some people I'd anticipated? Because just as you noted, so many of the characters are different.

But I think that, you know, broadly the idea of the depth and scope of the infiltration, both in terms of the seats and halls of power, right, political figures, etc., and potentially the span of time, like how far back some of these infiltrations date seems likely to still be,

you know, if not a one-to-one, at least something that is really ported over. A potential. And I think this is the other, yeah, I think this is the other, like, most likely thing that will be pulling from the arc. The heist call out is a great one. I mean, the number of things on that press god. Not Prescott, press God. Press God.

Prescott. The conspiracy board. The conspiracy board. The conspiracy board, the posted about the heist, et cetera. A lot of different nuggets there. and if we go back to thinking about some of the shots that we've seen in the trailers, because there were a couple different trailers for the season,

we've got images of briefcases, we've got the vials of substances. I mean, this seems like a very, very likely element of the show to come, and I think it would have to be in some ways, both because if the intent is to infiltrate to the extent that would lead to a global takeover, first of all, practically, you've got to be able to pass.

You've got to be able to pass as anyone you are pretending to be. And how can you do that if you can't replicate the power set? But also just the gain, the advantage of being able to inherit and absorb those powers is a more powerful weapon than any of the things they're trying to buy from a painter. No matter how many people that they like emulate or absorber, you know, replicatable, blah, if the other set has the Avengers on it, ultimately you're on the back foot, right? So like, you know, B-Y, build your own. And the chess board, centrally featured in this episode.

It's a very clear and deliberate metaphor, both for the relationship between Hill and Fury. But in general, that idea of going move to move piece to piece with your opponent, like you're saying, you've got to be able to match and anticipate what's to come. So this seems inevitable, I think. So on the larger, on the, on the original prompt, which is what are your initial thoughts on the episode, Joanna? I will just say that like, so it's a six-episode season, right? This is not my favorite episode of television I've ever watched. It's a pretty slow start. I'm trying to keep hope alive in my heart that this is, because there's a lot of potential here,

both with that comic book storyline that we outlined, an incredible cast that we absolutely adore, and this espionage flavor that I think is very interesting. series director al-A-Slimm said in an interview of this one episode of six he said this is one big story and i hope you enjoyed his one big story it's not episodic you're not going to feel satisfied at the end of any episode you're going to feel like i got to keep going to know what happens next if you want to have the impact of the story you got to stick with it till the end of course obviously it's what I would say I made six episodes of television

and it is a little bit of an odd thing to say about something that is not being offered in a binge drop but thinking about Andor which we heard that they sort of internally were comparing this to Andor or we're hoping that it would reach the heights of Andor, et cetera, et cetera. We can see some of the similar

DNA. Here's my note for Hollywood. You ready? Don't compare yourself to Ador. Stop saying this is the best superhero movie ever made. Stop saying this is this is our and or stop inviting and invoking these comparisons that you're you're not going to be able to wow sub tweeting tom subtuting tom cruise on a friday morning okay so anyway um i would never and or we should say dropped three episodes at once and if i had just watched that very first episode by itself i would have felt a little like this is a little slow i'm not sure how i feel

about it, et cetera, et cetera. And I remember... 12 total, right? So a very different length overall. Different scope. Absolutely. 12 total. They dropped three at once, I think, for that reason, because they knew that you had to, like,

get through the first three hours in order to, like, really feel like you were in. And I had to convince a lot of people who started Andor and watched one episode and they were like, eh. And I'm like, no, guess what? It's the best. So you have to keep going. And so I don't know that that will be the case of secret invasion. We have only seen one episode.

we did not receive any screeners. They only sent press out max two screeners of six. So it's not like anyone in the press knows, oh, by episode four it gets really good or anything like that. Like, that's not anything we know. And I would think that if that were the case, anyway, I'm doing like complicated calculation. All this to say is me trying to like feed the little fire of hope in my heart that this will turn into a show that I absolutely adore. As of right now, slow, a little clunky start. Mallory, how do you feel?

I feel similarly. I thought this was totally fine. Like a totally fine episode of television, which is not the most artful analysis and insight, but it is sincerely how I felt about it. Like, I didn't think it was bad. But coming off the trailers, the adoration and expectations that people have based on how beloved comic arc is, the cast, that presentation of the spy thriller genre,

it seemed like this had a chance to be really special. And I think that, like, it just felt flat. It just felt flat. It wasn't bad, again. I just think it felt flat. Like, it didn't have the kind of propulsive energy that I was looking for. Some of the scenes did when I could watch already Nick Fury and Sonia trade barbs about their booze orders happily. for six episodes and I would be not only content but delighted.

I thought this was an incredibly, even by the standards of MCU shows needing to remind people of the things they've forgotten or quickly fill them in on what has happened in the interim, an incredibly clunky exposition-laden premiere that really exacerbated that thing we're already feeling, which is like, oh, man, you want a little more umph to push you forward. So did I leave it thinking, oh, this show's not going to be good? No, not really. I'm still looking forward to episode two. I think maybe now that they've cleared

some of those early exposition hurdles, I'm hoping that it really picks up from here. But I agree with you, it's like maybe if that were the case, start with more than one to hook people. I don't know. It's an interesting one. I think the other thing in the back of my mind,

and I don't really think this is even a fair thing to raise. But typically, our experience with MCU shows is that we're really hyped, and into them at the start, and then they fall off a cliff. So if this is where we're starting, that makes me a little nervous. Because usually rapping strongly is the feat they don't quite manage to achieve. Now, maybe this will be the inverse. Maybe it will be a slow start and a crescendo to something really special at the end.

That would be great. I'm happy to be patient. But if we have that same sort of late stage final act, like, wamp, wamp, then we just might not be getting the show that we were looking forward to getting. and that would be a shame. But open mind, open heart, would love to love this, as always. I'm curious if, like, relatedly,

yeah, anything has changed just one hour in maybe about what you are hoping for out of this series, whether it's something about the focus of the plot, the blend of characters, the genre of flair, the spy craft, anything at all. Has anything shifted for you one installment in?

I was thinking about the order of release because, as we know, the Marvels, which, you know, the Marvels is, of course, so closely connected to, like, sword and saber and fury, et cetera, et cetera. That was originally supposed to drop July 28th. So, like, which would be right after the, though they had not announced the release date for a secret invasion when they moved that date. But, like, imagine the Marvels is dropping right after the finale of this.

Like, how closely related are these two things? Samuel Jackson said to Empire, this series, this series, secret invasion, has to happen. so that the marvels can happen. All these things are connected in an interesting sort of way. And again, we're always thinking about the MCU's interconnectedness and how much is appealing

and how much feels like too much. And so it's just something that's on my mind of like how is this setting up the marvels, how much space is it need to take to set up the marvels, or is that just baked into the premise of the show? And given what we've heard about the way in which the marvels is being somewhat reworked because of its later release date.

This is a question mark we've been having in the MCU ever since like multiverse of madness and no way home. We're sort of flip-flopping around and like, how is that going to impact the story given shifting order of events and stuff like that? The other thing is the spycraft angle because, you know, you and I are espionage fans. We love, for example, slow horses is one of our favorite shows in recent memory over and Apple TV. If you haven't watched that, go check it out. But Salim, in many different interviews, Salim had a list ready of like five films that he was looking at to inspire this, right?

So the third man, iconic noir film starring Ross and Wells, the conversation and the French connection to Gene Hackman, 70s, Paranoia Thrillers, Parallax View, Warren 80-70s paranoia thriller and The Searchers, which is John Wayne Western. And the paranoia thriller angle is interesting because you and I love Winter Soldier, which is also obviously drawing from the paranoia thriller realm. But the John LeCarray influence here, you know, great novel, author of spy novels, that's more like Cold War espionage than it is. 70s paranoia. So because we start in Moscow, it feels more lecouré to me than it does

70s paranoia. But that idea of, I mean, the plot of Winter Soldier is Hydra has, and for a long time, infiltrated shields. And the people that you think are shield are actually Hydra. And that is the same essentially plotline potentially available here, which is that scrolls have, you know, since the 90s, been infesting and invading various properties. So, like, on the one hand, what could be better than more Winter Soldier in our life? But on the other hand, I'm hopeful that the writing in the show is elevated enough to match the potential of what a spycraft, what an espionage story can give us. So, Samuel Jackson talking about this character that he's played for so long, who are now seeing. Scars readily apparent on the face.

Goodbye. A little bit of like a punch going on bad knee, helping Samuel Jackson with his favorite note that he likes to give to people, which is like, I don't like to run in movies, so don't make me run. They're like, great, you got a bad knee. Here we go. So he said to Empire Magazine, here you have a guy who's showing his face and showing his age.

It's an opportunity to humanize someone that everyone thinks is superhuman. I had to figure out some stuff and work out some new things, which I've been trying to do for a while. It's great to have an opportunity to find out who he was and delve into how much of a toll his job actually takes on his personal life. So the opportunity to get to know Nick Fury on this level is really interesting to me.

And again, to go back to that sort of like Lechere approach to SpyCraft, I think it's really interesting to distinguish that kind of espionage story from like a James Bond. Like Lecoury hated Ian Fleming and James Bond. And I think, so let me hit you with a couple Lechere quotes about spies and who they are and why I think this could be an interesting place to slot an examination of Nick Fury, right? So in his most famous book, The Spy Who Came In From the Cold, one of his characters, Alex Lehmick says, what do you think spies are? Priests, Saints, and Martyrs, there are a squalid procession of vain fools, traitors to, yes, pansies. sadists and drunkards, people who play cowboys and Indians to brighten their rotten lives.

Like, that's just incredible stuff in contrast to what's going on with James Bond, who Lechere, I believe, called like an international gangster. He was like, he's not a spy. He's like, that's not what a spy is. And I think it's so interesting. Or talking about, Lechere talking about his another very famous fictional. spy that he wrote, George Smiley, he said, the reason why many people take up the secret life, because Leccare was a spy before he was a novelist, he says, the reason why many people take up

the secret life, for some people it's a refuge, for some people it's the comradeship, the sense you're working in a good cause, in a secret place, unacknowledged, which in itself is a kind of safety. And I just love that idea of these, like, you know, when you think about characters like Jackson Lamb and Slow Horses, which would we call him a good guy? Not any day of the week, no. But is he working on the side that we consider good? Yeah, and that's the nice, like, sticky, like stickiness of a story like this. And so Nick Fury is such an interesting potential character because throughout the MCU,

there have just been moments with Shield or with what Nick Fury is asking. of the Avengers where we're like, is this a good guy? Is this the guy to follow? Is, you know, like, what's going on here? And I think it's like just such a ripe opportunity. And for when it comes to something like the third man,

a great film adapted from a great Graham Green novel, there's a great quote from Leccaree about Graham Green. And he says, What I love in Green in every book he writes is the sense of moral search still within the content of story. There are solitaries in search of some kind of fulfillment. There are paradoxes of courts, which we know they in some way approach God through sin. It is the moral search of a lonely man.

That in green, as in Conrad, attracts me irresistibly. And so I think this idea of the lone gunslinger, which is why the director of the series keeps referencing the searchers, John Wayne, the searchers. This idea of Nick Fury losing his closest companion in this episode, which we'll talk about, and maybe slowly or quickly because we only have six episodes, losing even any other connection than he has. And it's just Nick Fury and his slippery sense of morality. This is the best version of this story that I would love to see.

You know what I mean? And I don't know that Marvel or these particular writers have it in them to tell me. this story, but I know that this is possible. And it's what I, I don't, I don't need to set the bar too high, but like, it's, it would please me to no end to see something like this of like really examining the moral slipperiness of a character like Nick Fury who, as one of our listeners emailed, and we'll talk about later, like dipped trading cards in blood in order to manipulate his heroes into fighting in the Battle of New York, you know what I mean?

And, and someone reckoning like a. escaped a space to avoid dealing with the fallout or the misfunction of the band of heroes that he put together to defend Earth. That's interesting to me. Yeah, I mean, I certainly agree. I think that that would be the best version of the show and the most compelling one. And I think the aspects of this premiere that gave us little glimpses of either that introspection from Fury talking about the crisis of faith that confronted him and then followed him. And I think also like to your point about, and those quotes about that idea of camaraderie, the fact that he chose, as you're noting, to recede from that, not only the impact that

had on him, but the impact that that had on other people. I mean, this is an episode and a series ultimately, I think that will hold him in esteem, but also in judgment. And that's certainly, that balancing act is certainly present in the, the premiere in a way that I find really interesting. The two questions I have about that are both related to a point you already made, which is the overall like MCU connectivity, which as you know, generally, for a large stretch of the last few years, I have remained really enthusiastic about it

big fan of. Right. It strikes me, like the number of times in this episode, we'll talk about a few of them in more detail when we go through the scenes, but the number of mentions of the blip, for example, like the number of things that either directly or through an illusion evoke Thanos or Tony or the Avengers, this previous time, the Infinity saga,

the thing that happened before, this show belonged in phase four. This is the actually, like, perfect kind of project to transition us into this next era, because as we talked about a lot in phase four, so much of that was about mantle passing. but also about the trauma of that period of like recovery and resetting.

And Fury would have been a riveting figure and lens to examine and explore those ideas. It felt in some way like we had sort of just exited that period of reflection in the MCU. And so there's like just a little bit of a oscillating, like are we moving forward into the multiverse? Are we still in the blip era?

and I'm a little bit torn on it because I think it would be weird. I'm off two minds, Joe. I genuinely think it would be weird if the MC just stopped acknowledging the blip. And it's like, everyone's moved on. This is fine. Like, this would be the most consequential thing in people's lives for a considerable period moving forward. And somebody like Fury who had removed himself for so long and then had to finally confront it, whatever that moment of confront, whenever that moment of confronting comes is the moment of reckoning.

So that's all fine. it just felt like, oh, yeah, blip. Like, this is what we were doing in Falcon. This is what we were doing in, you know? As you know, I hate the term blip, so I will just be saying snap. But, like, the, my suspicion is that the reason we're getting so many mentions of Thanos and the Snap of Blah, blah, is because the Snap, it was a pre-MO time and opportunity for the scrolls to do some swapparoos.

That's fine. again, let's put the show on phase four. Yeah. When that's like the moment of time we exited. I don't know. Development wise, why it's here. But I think, like, relatedly, that larger MCU connectivity question, like, is on my mind with the intent of the show.

And I, in this respect, sincerely, I'm eager to see where it goes. And I think any version of this could work really well. Like, is, I'm curious to see how contained the invasion and the effects of the invasion are to this series. and how sprawling the consequences are of whatever we learn inside of the series for the rest of the MCU moving forward because, you know, like we'll talk about that. And Ross reveal in the opening scene and back. Yeah.

What does it cause us to reassess from the past? But also if we think about some of the upcoming projects, right, we've got Captain America, Brave New World coming. We've got a thunderbolts to be coming. Like, we've got a lot of stories that are centered in the political arena in a way that makes whatever happens in this show, I have to assume is going to play directly. into those. And so that's the MCU. That's the name of the game. I'm typically a fan of that. I like when these things feel like they impact each other. But does that leave enough room for

the thing you're talking about, which is that more introspective and quiet on the streets with this person in that grimy room with that glass of bourbon saying, comrade to a stranger across the bar who ends up showing up as your nevisis a few scenes later? Like, what will the balance be of the effects of the adhesion for phase five and beyond and concluding the Nick Fury chapter inside of this series. No idea. Hopefully they can do both. Five hours to go. All of the clocks on Sonia's wall are ticking. Let's go. Should we talk about every scene in this episode of television? You want to dive deep? Yeah, let's do every single goddamn scene in order. Let's do it.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. 100 free events, 6,000 kids, one mission. Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities.

Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community-based organizations near you. Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100K. That's Clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is registered 5.101.1.1.C3 nonprofit. We will start where the episode starts, Joanna, with your guy and mine, Richard Dormer. Barrett Dundarian here in the MCU. What a thrill, but without a flaming sword or he's got a beard, but not the utterly lush and regal or splendid beard that I'm accustomed to seeing in Westeros.

I've also always believed that Richard Dormer has one of the best voices of all time and that I could listen to him and read the phone book. And while that is still strictly true, the American accent does a lot to throw some cold water on my Richard Dormer voice feelings. But you still got, you got treated to multiple moments of top tier gravel. Oh, yeah. It's just wonderful. So our guy Dormer is Prescott. And we would like to just know once again that it is Prescott.

With a D, not Prescott, with two T's. Which is just shocking. We're not for the fact that he is like the world's number one scroll conspiracy theorist. I would say that's scroll behavior to have your name be Prescott with a D instead of Prescott. Was this the most shocking reveal of the episode of all the twists and turns that it's P-R-E-S-C-O-D? It bothers me so much to no end. Joe has been really thrown by this. You wrote it, you wrote it so many times on our notes and every time I'm like, surely it can't be the fish.

It can't be the fish. If you're listening to this and your name is Prescott with a D, I apologize. But I don't think those people exist. So let's go. Prescott is not the only one in this opening scene, Joanna. Everett Ross. Here he is. Right at the beginning, Martin Freeman is with us.

And I guess we'll call him Ross, heavy air quotes. People can't see us doing heavy air quotes on Zoom. But he's revealed in the opening stretch of this episode to be a scroll. So what should we call him? Should we just call him Ross? Should we call him? S-Ross? How do you want to handle this throughout the run?

This is going to be something we have to workshop in real time. But we don't have another Ross, like the real Ross in this episode. I was going to say, there's no other Ross in this episode. We'll confront this later, perhaps. We will. Nick's scary. Oh, my God. Okay.

So, Ross, answers a call. Heads to meet Prescott, who opens the series on us. a tone-setting note. There's a mission statement. There's an ominous portent. Imagine a world where information can't be trusted. Not very hard, is it? He talks about a fractured world where the news isn't something you can rely upon.

Oh, boy. He wants to focus on the people that they love. You love to turn on a Marvel show and escape reality folks. Yeah, I love escapism. Oh, my lord. Let's hear the rest of this speech, Carlos, please. What if those people weren't who we thought they were? What if the ones closest to us?

The ones we've trusted our whole lives were someone else entirely. What if they weren't even human? Okay, I like the score. First of all, I want to say I like the score. Secondly, just genuinely topped your hilarious American accent. And then thirdly, I want to say, I did like the way that this was put together where we're watching Ross, quote unquote Ross, traverse the city. While we hear this, it's not, we're not watching Press God, you know, rabidly gesticulate in front

of his conspiracy board yet. And I like, I like the voiceover with the cityscape sort of. Yeah, it was a very moody. Yeah. Beginning. And one that clearly tells us what we're in for what the story is, is going to be about. We get to scan the cork boards, the whiteboards, all of the clippings, papering every inch of the surface. We'll talk about some of the particulars, more in the Easter egg sections. You already mentioned the heist. We see specific cities called out. We see Munich.

We see London, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Artai Ross, from the jump, we are suspicious. For a couple reasons. One, when we last left. Well, you I know we're always on. Obviously, Wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson as a staple here at the House of Ar. But I think we will be bringing back another favorite of yours. from Andor and House of the Dragon Hat Watch.

Yeah. Yeah. Chris and Cole Memorial. Move over Kristen Cole. There's some new hats in the mix. That, but like when we left Ross in Wakanda Forever, he had been in custody and then sprung. It doesn't quite make sense to see him just back at work in this context. Though again, we kind of have to accept at the beginning of any new project that we have some spaces to fill in.

but his reaction to hearing this is just not what we would be accustomed to from the Ross that we have spent time with previously, though now we, of course, have to consider after the reveal, when did this swap occur? This, by the way, is what Jessica will be breaking down in her video, what the implications of the Ross reveal are when it might potentially have happened. So again, check that out if you haven't yet. Can I give my not as probably not as informed as Jess's video theory theory? I mean, I would just say, I think it's post-Wakonda.

I feel like the Ross we saw in Wakanda forever was our Ross. Real Ross. That's not the case for every character we're going to talk about, but I think that was a recent Swaparoo. Yeah, I think the question of, there are a lot of questions, like, when did they grab him? Is the real Ross just, is he in Wakanda still? Is he in a fracking pod somewhere? Is he dead?

No, I think, I think, I think me, I could be really. Wrong. But you think he got scooped and he's in a fracking pot and we'll see him in a fracking pot. I think this is not the last we'll see of Martin Freeman in the season of television. Yeah. Yeah. The guest star, special guest star credit made me nervous, but also, yeah, he can still come back for another episode later. I think I would say like one other episode. I don't think we're going to see him like throughout the series, but I could see him coming back from one other episode. The only thing I feel, I agree, I think this is a recent thing. The only thing I feel absolutely certain about is that it could not have been as far back as the first Black Panther because, sure, sure. jury is performing a medical procedure on him, she would have been able to detect scroll biology, just for sure. So there's no way with Ross can be that far back. The relationship stuff with Valentina, like, this is, okay, this is the problem. Sorry, I know we're still in the first scene, but like, this is the problem of shapeshifting storytelling, because there's a potential advantage to it and there's a huge potential disadvantage. And you and I will remember this fondly from the faithless man era of

Game of Thrones, when everyone was constantly like, is that aria? Is that aria? Is that aria? Is that aria? Is that a faceless man? And I'm like, you can't ever, like, in order to tell a story effectively, like, you have to calibrate this carefully. Because we can't get emotionally invested in watching a character's story.

Do you know what I mean? And then to have a rugpole. So there are certain characters like, you know, everyone wants to talk about, like, is Sharon Carter a scroll? And if Sharon Carter's a scroll, that is a more satisfying interpretation to me of Falcon and the Winter Soldier than the one we got. And so that's interesting to me. But if you take another character who... Remember the powerbroker problem? I don't want to.

But if it turns out she was a scroll, then great. You know what I mean? But like, let's say we took a character like, Loki's not even a possibility. But let's say we did. And they were like, whoa, Loki was a scroll the whole time. It's like you and I would be actively mad because we watched Loki go on this incredibly emotional journey that we were invested in. And so you have to be careful. And so like while Everett Ross didn't have like a hugely emotional arc in O'Connor forever, like his relationship with Valentina and they're like that whole back and forth felt significant.

It felt like it was in the wrong movie, but it felt significant to what's going to go forward. And like, LOL he was a scroll along is not a satisfying reveal for that movie for me, you know. I think that risk for the response from fans, I feel like this is just going to be much more contained than the comics equivalent in terms of timeline. I would be really surprised. I would say with a few exceptions. Yeah, yes.

Of maybe people we don't have that existing relationship with yet. If we find out certain new political figures who we have no real history with have been scrolls and shells for decades. Okay, I'll hold this. I'll hold this. Save it for the White House. Yeah, I'll save for the White. Prescott outlines these five global terrorist strikes in the past year.

I've each had this different group. A different group has claimed each of them, right? But he says, a violent chain reaction consuming the globe. Do you realize the entire globe is at war? So this is like he's outlining for Ross and us. Hey, these aren't isolated. Everything is connected. And there is an architect to that tension.

That's how he puts it. The scrolls, he's certain, are behind it all. Now, we learned over the course of this episode that is in fact true. They are trying to take over planet Earth and make it their home because Nick Fury never got him a new home. Whoops! The stretch of setting up the plot moves right into some of that refresh exposition, literally including a, you know the stories segue. this is where I got, I was getting worried and we're only a few minutes in. Carol Danvers, Nick Fury, scrolls finding Earth 30 years ago, the promise of a new planet.

Now they want our planet. Earth. Scrolls could be anybody anywhere at any time. There could be thousands of them, tens of thousands and you would never know. It's just a lot of like bullet point after bullet point after bullet point. Here's what's happened. Here's what's coming in the first few minutes. But also I was wondering if you thought almost independent of that. Maybe it's a necessity. Maybe there's a more deaf to handle it. Maybe it's a necessity. Was this the right way to give it to us? Because this is not a character we know. Would it have been more impactful to hear this from somebody that we have some sort of history with her an attachment to?

Or did it make sense to give us this from a new person who is then immediately disposed of? I will say putting Martin Freeman in the scene, I think, was a brilliant move because I was actively watching it the first time I was like, there's so much clunky exposition here. And at the same time, Martin Freeman is just like a miracle in the way. way that he is being interesting to me. The eye glances. Taking the tablet looking like, yeah, shit. I know what this is.

Like, all this sort of stuff. He was great. Yeah. The exasperation. Dormer is great, too, like, in general. And, like, as a crackpot conspirac, like, this is a fun casting. And then I do feel like they, like, sort of plus a little. They got freaking Barak Dandarian.

But, like, to your point, would it have been more interesting to see even like a, maybe like a buttoned up, like, not Colson, but like a Colson-esque character, unraveled, would that have been interesting to us to see, like, the effect that this scroll conspiracy has taken on someone that we consider sort of a more, you know, uptight government type and someone we've met before? Yeah, I could see that. It's just, to me, it's less performance or characterization is more writing. It just, it, oh, yeah, nothing about the performance, just the character choice and the dialogue. That deafness, like, while I was watching it, I was like, I'm so sorry, it's not fair, but I was like, imagine how Andor would have handled this.

Like, like, when you think about, like, scenes that I was thinking about are, like, scenes where mom mothma is trying to, like, talk to people at a party and, like, whispering while smiling, you know, and there's, like, just this, there are extra layers of something going on to keep the exposition interesting and the tension high. And two people alone in the room, even if one of them is a scroll, is not as, you know, is not as distracting to the exposition. dump, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's a great point in a great comp.

And there's also just so much, like, it felt like there's not room for any of that around the data dump. Like, we have to then find out from Ross that the scrolls have only been running their contact through Fury, that he was on Sabre. We're like, okay, Sabre, here's a keyword. Let's refresh, right?

The space station that we see Fury on and the Stinger and Far From Home, in the Marvels trailer, which we've gotten so far, there's the Sabre station with a label. So to your point from earlier, it's like a tie to the Marvels right there, established again. So we're like ingesting and processing a lot immediately.

I did love when Ross was like, I need more than theories. I need evidence. And I'm like, my guy listens to podcasts. Ross is just, he's got a full feed. He's following. He's subscribing. He's sending emails to the Hobbits and Dragons.

in gmail.com. But of course, in this scene, he's fishing. He wants to see what Prescott really knows and how real the threat is. I want to take an audio clip of Martin Freeman exasperatedly saying, he's on saber. And just like, anytime someone's like,

where's this person, where's Steve Rogers? And be like, he's on saber. Like, I don't know. Like, what the fuck do you want for me? He's on saber. Oh, God. We have to say goodbye to Prescott because Ross shot him in the chest

right here. Now, Prescott was trying to strangle him because he rightly was like, you want to give my secret tablet to Fury. You're not who you say you are. Scroll-ass behavior. I see your tiny hat, sir. You are a scroll.

Yeah. So is this going to be one of the things that you track through the whole season, anyone with a hat is a scroll? I mean, Nick Fury has a hat on. But then he did have a, there was a Nick Fury but also a real Nick Fury. I don't know.

Is it the style of the hat, the size of the hat? You need more. You need more. Yeah, more. Yeah. And then I will show you my absolutely bananas-looking red string hat theory conspiracy board. Please do. I can't wait.

Jomey will be delighted to throw it up on Instagram. Joe Ross flees. And we're out. We've got our first but not our last chase of the episode. You've got to have a chase in a spy thriller. Here it is. Colt Hill for the extract. And then he's, Ross shows up on her screen.

So his biometrics or his voice or whatever are sophisticated enough to fool her tech. That was my interpretation. And that was also, I thought, maybe contrary to what we had already outlined, a data point that he could have been a scroll for a little longer, maybe. Like the extent of the infiltration, hey, we're heading out to a new mission, we've got new comms. I've been around and on the team in my human shell for a minute here. A chase, it usually goes best if the participants know how to properly jump across the street or jump off of a roof. And neither of those things are true for the scroll impersonating Everett Ross. He's hit by many cars.

He tries to jump off one roof onto another building as a pursuer who we eventually learn is Talos, follows him. And he just misses the jump and falls and dies. I don't know why I'm laughing, but it's just a brutal, brutal way to go. And the joy of it is that we get to see Ben Mendelsohn. Our guy, Talos, right back in front of our faces, missed him, love Ben Mendelso. Big Ben Mendelso podcast. When Hill approaches and sees that it's Taylor's show, we get a kind of fascinating exchange. He's one of you, she says, as Ron.

turns into a scroll. And what does Taylor say? No, he's one of them. To your point from earlier about this being ultimately not only the idea of maybe, oh, some of the scrolls who were expected to be villains, twist, they're actually fighting for something noble, fighting for something that we would support. They're on the side of good. The fact that not every scroll wants the same thing is, I think, a great and important choice and a much more interesting story to show us that there would be tension and dissension inside of the scroll ranks, that they would have a different, that they would have different beliefs, that they would have different desires, that they would have different timeframes, that they would have resentment, not only against people like Fury, but

against people like Talos, who certain members of the scroll faction felt did not follow through on his promise either. It's also like a perfect spycraft sort of element to blur and muddy the waters and the lines of what, who's on whose side? What's a side? Where do I belong? And I think as we see later with Talos, when they're, when they wind up, you know, when Nick Fury winds up shooting and killing another scroll who was like actively fighting him, but he was like, but he's devastated because he, he's of two minds. He has two sides pulling on him.

You know what I mean? I was, when I was doing a little bit of Lickory research when he was, Lickory really did spend like a lot of his career shit talking James Bond. He's one of you. No, he's one of them quote here. It pinged for me because Lechere wrote to the editor of a Soviet literary magazine about James Bond or actually about Ian Fleming. He's on your side, not mine. As in like James Bond is like propaganda against British espionage community or whatever.

I just thought that that was so funny. But like the idea that we're calling. constantly thinking of spies, especially when you've double agents, triple agents, blah, blah, you don't know who to trust. Who is on your side? Who can you count on, et cetera, et cetera. Anything else on the Ross reveal opening scene of the episode is the sooner than you thought we would get a reveal of this nature?

Anything else about the implications, either looking backward or looking ahead that you want to hit here? I wouldn't say sooner. As soon as this cold open started, I was like, one of these people is this girl, like, right, has got to be. I think it's a great use of Everett Ross as like a minor character of Martin Freeman as an actor that we like, right?

That we have warm associations with. And so I think that's like a perfectly placed kind of character, whether or not again the whole thing was done as definitely as it might have been. I have some questions, but in terms of, you know, you hear constantly in the Marvel, various Marvel writers' room, whether it be like who do we pick to survive the snap or who do we pluck out of our bench of characters to show

in this show or that show or the other like Darcy's going to be in Wanda Vision or like blah, blah. You know, they almost have them as like playing cards that they pull from. And I just imagine them plucking Everett Ross out and being like Ross. That's a perfect. That's who we want the end here. Yeah. Yeah. Politics, spycraft, but also like, yeah, you can weaponize the affection that the audience has.

Great point. Then we get to be back with our guy Nick Fury at last. He returns to Earth, reunites with Talos and Hill. He is beamed down from space. Looks, the silhouette that we initially get looks more alien than human. This was a fascinating first visual for our reunion with Nick Fury. he'll takes him to the safe house. And the reunion between Furian and Talos, I thought was, even though again, there's a lot of exposition inside of it, emotionally, like, very touching and sweet. These two are great together.

The forehead touch, which, you know, calls back to the Soren. To Marvel. Yeah. Farhead touch. But just the, you feel, like, that was a moment where you really did feel the depth of history between the characters, the things that they have lived through together and the things that they have shared. It was beautiful. And even just that initial, like the sky plant discussion, first of all, it's interesting

to see something that is a part of scroll history, a part of the scroll world, the thing that they grow and nurture and then something that more, more particularly connects to their family unit. This felt a little clunky and overt to me. A lot of the, a lot of the metaphors. I mean, this, the chess, it's all quite on the nose and overt throughout the episode. There were, this I think maybe because it was one of the first ones didn't quite like elicit that response to me.

Some of the later ones I was like, we don't need to be like led quite this actively into our read of the character's emotional state. But here we get that. It's changed and she planted it. It's adapted to the planet. So this idea of adapting what is possible, what still can be possible. And that's when they embrace. and we learned that Sorin's been killed.

Been killed as we'll hear later in exchanges between Talos and Gaia by graphic, by another scroll faction. This was very sad. I thought would have loved to have Sorin in the show. It's sad, but I also like don't, I mean, I don't feel like I really knew Sorin that well. So, like, but it's sad. But I have seen this theory float around and, And I think it might be true is that like a reason to take her off the board is to make sure we don't think that the Maria Hill who dies at the end of the episode like might be soren, you know, or something like that.

Like because soren impersonated Maria in far from home. Yeah. Yeah. It's again, as you know, it might be like slightly. The risk with this kind of story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is where we get some of the blip talk, Joe. After the blip, you were different and then you disappeared.

Carol Danvers disappeared. So did Gaia. What did you think of the Carol mention here? I love this because it's always been a complication that they were like, okay, we're going to do Captain Marvel Carol as like a prequel in the 90s. And then she's just going to be gone. And there have been occasional mentions of like, you know, I had to, you know, there were things that I had to do to protect the galaxy or whatever.

but it's always still a constant question of like, where has Carol been when Earth has needed her sometimes? And so to make it like a feature, not a bug, and to make her disappearance part and parcel with this larger Nick Fury, like, abandonment issue of like, you said you were going to do this for us and you abandon us. And it makes it like a frailty of a hero, not just a like yada yada.

She's just off planet, you know? Like I think that's smart. And I'm curious to see how that plays out. We know that that is of concern in the marvels. We know that idea of Carol Danvers has abandoned people who are depending on her is an important story going forward. Yeah, I like this. We've been helping you for all these years to ensure that you kept your promise reminding not only Nick Fury and then, you know, eventually Carol, of that failure, but us, like, this is so much time. you know, Captain Marvel is set in the 90s.

Yeah. 30 years. Yeah. To have Taylor's and others working on your behalf and enlisted in your cause and to not deliver the thing that you told them you would is like, valid. No. Yes. Though, now that we know that the scrolls live a whole lot longer, what is 30 years to a scroll? Well, that's a fair point.

You know, we're our guys, what, 136? And he's like, I haven't even can hit my midlife crisis spending spree. I loved when when he then said, what was yours to fear this is later in the episode? He said, The Avengers. I was like, honestly, great joke. Incredible flex. Great joke. Great joke.

Incredible flex. No, but I, I'm mostly joking. Like, yeah. To not make good on that promise for 30 years. gives, of course, Gravick a really understandable motivation. Yeah. This is like that classic

you create your own demons idea, and I like that it's inside of this premiere presented not only is true for Fury, but also for Talos, because the resentment is, in some case, it's very personal, like with his daughter, with Gaia, with Amelia Clark's character. But with Gravick, we learned that he swapped in for the council seat. Taylor's has been exiled.

Later, when we go to this secret nuclear plant compound and we see 500 strong we'll hear Gaia say so many scrolls are seeking refuge there. Not all of them are the warriors, right? That counts around 100 given elsewhere in the episode. But how many people does Talos have right now who he can trust? The numbers are not on his side here or Furies at all based on the math of this initial episode, which is interesting.

Like the board is really skewed in Gravick's direction. Well, on the number side. But again, it goes back to that muscle question that we have of like, but on Fury and Talis aside, there are the Avengers. Right. I mean, they're not in this show, but there are rounds. You know what I mean? One of them's here.

You mentioned this already, Joe, but Gravick immediately positioned us as that other kind of classic MCU trope, the villain who has a point, right? This presentation that he, from the Hill and the, this conversation with Hill and Taylor's and Fury that he preys on the collective rage of young displaced scrolls. Well, like, okay, causing a global war, planning and executing terrorist attacks, obviously, objectively, that's bad. Trying to find a home for your people and rebelling against the supposed allies who said they were going to help you do that and then didn't for three decades is something that we would understand. So what level with Gravick after

this first episode, like, do you think how much of the villain who has a point stuff will be able to come to the four, I mean, our first real interaction with him at the end of this episode is shooting Maria Hill and blowing up the public square. It's tough to come back from that. So, you know, Kilmonger, like, his introduction is also quite violent and et cetera, et cetera. But, like, I think that my investment in Gravick has a lot to do with the casting of Kingsley-Benedier. You and I both love the high fidelity TV series adaptation, but he also did a great depiction of Barack Obama. He's done a great depiction of Malcolm X. This is someone who has done really interesting portrayals of leadership sort of across the spectrum.

And so I'm really interested to see what he – I just love him. And so I don't think that this episode gave us crums, graphic crumbs. shadowy shots of him from behind windows, etc., etc. We know he takes his tea, but we don't know much more. And so I'm really helpful. So many cubes of sugar.

I was shocked. That has to come back later, right? A whole speech from Gaia, we've got our scroll wine and our scroll fruit and all of our wonderful foodstuffs. And then Gravick is just loading sugar cube after sugar cube. I feel like we're going to see a character later put a bunch of sugar in their team. We're going to know it's Gravick, right?

like that has to be why that's there. But so really it's, I'm coasting on Benadier fumes right now for Gravick. But there's a lot of potential for this character for sure. Nick Fury announces after hearing that his entire species is in peril of ceasing to exist if Gravick wins. Says he's going to go for a walk. But before we get to enjoy that walk with him, we have a little detour. We go to the White House. Joanna, please take us through the scene with Brody and President Ritson.

I'm so excited. Okay, first of all, Dermott Mowroni's here. Silver Fox Prez, Dermott Mironi. Fun fact, I learned about Dermott Mowroni of the Today Show this week. Did you see this clip about him talking about playing the cello? No. Okay, Dermot Moroni.

He's a cellist. It's so good at playing the cello and is friends with Michael Jekino that in the last 15 years, he has played the cello on 20 different film scores. just as like a studio musician. He's like, I just go into the studio with all the other musicians and I sit in the back and I play the cello. Wow. This is my new favorite fact of all time,

Dermarroni, a stealth cellist. Will this be a subplot in Tar 2, the Tar inning? My TB, stealth something else? Let's find out, right? So we get, Rodey's here, Ritson's here. We do a little walk and talk. And we're talking about how Fury has left Sabre. Uh-huh.

Yeah. And Ritson says, Agent Fury is building out the most complex aerospace system in the history of mankind. He can't just leave. A little Moroni exposition for us. How do you feel about this description of a complex aerospace system in the history of mankind?

I think with Sabre, there are obviously a number of both from, Wanda Vision from the comics, sword comps to me. And that will probably prove the more one-to-one comp moving forward. But I thought it was impossible not to think of Tony and Ultron and Tony's suit of armor around the world intentions hearing this. And in a way that I really liked that Fury, who is grieving Tony still and living in that despair of everything that happened after Thanos, would be making some of the same mistakes that his number one boy made. This is just such a Tony kind of move.

We can protect everyone and everything. It'll be fine. How long till we get the version of Ultron? My fault. Sabre, my fault. My B. Rody says that they, like, intercepted a message from Hill to Fury, can't decode it. And they say, neither of them responding, they're effectively AWOL.

You have some questions about this. I don't. Tell me what your confusion is. I guess I just, I am not a spy nor a government agent, but just didn't understand this. Like it made me, and it's, it gets into that larger question of what, what level of suspicion and constant doubt is too much to like spark in your audience where we question literally every line that comes out of somebody's mouth or the way that they're speaking, the things that they say, how they're presenting it. But I was just like, this kind of doesn't seem like roadie to me is roadiest girl. Ritson, we know Harrison Ford has been cast to play Thunderball Ross and that he's going to be the president. So Ritson's time is, I mean, this is like, it's just a lock. gets numbered. Is it because he's already a scroll? Is it because

the scroller going to kill him going for the White House? But like, why would it be weird that spies are AWOL and out of contact? They're spies. Shouldn't it be inherent in the proposition that there are times when you can't contact them? Unlike the lead character of Byr, notice I'm not a spy, but I just want to let you know that, like, what I know about spies, I mostly know for a mission impossible. And like, aren't there things where like you have to check out, check in, or they leave you out in the cold? Okay.

They're AWOL after a day. Okay, okay, fair enough. Okay. To your point about who's a scroll here. So earlier you and I were texting about Ritson and we were like 100% scroll. I said SOTUS. Someone on Twitter was like Scrotus. I was like love it.

Scrotus is really great. Thank you. Fantastic. I am now, I'm now. You're walking it back. I'm walking back a little bit because now I believe 100% Rody is a scroll. 100%. I think so.

And that Ritson may or may not be. I rewatch that interaction a few times. And the fact that it ends with Ritson, because it's either. are two scrolls or the real Ritzin and scroll Rody. Those are my only two possibilities that I will interpret. And at the end of it, Ritson like hisses at him, deal with it. You could read that as them both being scrolls and they're in case. Exactly.

Exactly. Is that two scrolls talking to each other or is it the present talking about Rody? But here, let's talk about Rody for a second. Why Rody is the best candidate for secret scroll. Because again, we're talking about like longstanding hero, you know, perfect for them to inhabit because he doesn't have inherit superpowers. He's got a super suit. But as far as the Avengers go, if they're going to be an Avenger,

Rodey's a great one to be. Armor Wars, you know? What happens when the armor tech gets out into the wider world? Well, here's the thing is like, this is my new favorite theory. And I should say your friend of mine, Dave Gonzalez, was the one who informed me about this theory that's going around. there have been some rumblings from the creators. Again, we know no spoilers, but they're like,

one of the scroll reveals will be emotional. Okay? So, like, would it be emotional for us to find out that Rody is a scroll? Maybe a bit. You know what I mean? And, like, what we've seen him in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, et cetera, et cetera, like, okay. But what if, like, when did they swap out Rody?

And what if they swapped him out? out before Tony dies and the real Rody doesn't know that Tony's dead yet. And we watch the real Don Chitle, Don Chitle, Rode find out that Tony Stark is dead because he's been in the fracking pod this whole time. Here's the journey I just went on. Yeah. Getting to see that now would be just heartrending, devastating. I would love it. However, there are a four. few things in the history of the MCU that you simply cannot compromise in any way. And Tony's death is one of them. Rody's one of three people who's there when Tony dies.

Like, if he got that, if a fucking scroll got half of those final moments, instead of like having more time with Peter or Pepper, I would just, I would actually consider that, I think, outrageous. A violation. Okay. Yeah. I think that's fair. That's it.

I like the theory. Joe, I'm not with myself. No, no. I was thinking about it. I was thinking about like the funeral scene. Like I don't want anyone at the funeral scene even to have been a scroll. You know what I mean? But the idea of, of because Rody was, Rody was not snapped.

Like, you know, Rody, like, this is during the snap when things are chaotic. Rody is like on the council with everyone. You know what I mean? Like, Rody is just like there with Natalie, except it's not. Definitely Barton. Yeah. Doug in. So it's, I don't know.

I have, uh, I agree. I largely agree with you. I'm holding space for it, though. I think Rody is a scroll, to be clear. Like my number one top candidate, but in terms of the timing. Yeah. I would love for the swap to have happened after Tony's death. That would be a tough one.

So again, wild theorizing. Yeah. But like, if we get Martin Freeman as the real Ross back for an episode, I would love an episode where the real Rodee and the real Ross are like, working together try to escape from like their Narcina 5 essentially like from Frackville Frackville USA you know what I mean like I would you know I would love some sort of prisoner of war escape plot that's good it's good yeah if they want fewer and or comps they should definitely do a prison break episode they don't want fewer and or comps you want fewer and our coms they were

like yes we are I want them to want us to think about and or one of the best shows we've ever got to watch less often when watching this show. Anyway, Rody's definitely. I like it. I like this theory. Yeah. Great, a great candidate again. This is a major character. And like, Armour Wars then, hopefully is no matter when he was swapped out, the real Rody grappling with loss, loss of control, loss of power, like, you know, the trauma of having been abducted and losing time, you know, even if it's, just a little bit of time. So, yeah.

Yeah. And I could see, I could see the reveal of Rody being a scroll resulting in the death of Ritson. Like, what if he just kills the president? And that's how we know that that's a scroll or something like that. Do you know what I mean?

Or with apologies to President Ritson, we have to make room for Harrison Ford in the MCU. It's important. He's on the clock. All right. All right. With apologies, of course, Dermott Moroni.

It's time to talk about Olivia Goldman. Oh, exactly. Fury on his walk, Joe. He is stroll in the streets of Laskow, Ernan, a lot of looks from characters who will come back into play at the end of the episode as many shell forms the Gravick takes. Fury passes people kissing on a bench. There is a long look from a woman who will be one of the shells who recurs. A kid playing with a beach ball who will be in the scene at the end.

His two henchmen grab Fury and bring him to Sonia. And we are treated to the absolute magic. of having one of the great, genuinely greatest performers of our time on a television show every week in the Marvel universe. What a gift. Carlos, can we hear this clip? So, did you just have me extraordinarily renditioned by a group of your thugs? Were you not extraordinary?

You should only scratch the surface of mediocrity. Incredible. Exceptional. I thought that was easily the highlight of this episode. Oh, yeah. The scene was my favorite of the episode. But that line just, were you a lot extraordinary. Absolutely killed me.

Wonderful. What does you make of their dynamic? We get so many little lines right away that indicate the depth of their history. How long it's been since they've seen each other, allusions to their drink orders. This is where we get the, the Piss Shelf line when Fury is saying that she knows he prefers bourbon, the allusion to the ruining of her expensive flat city, which is, of course, a call back to just London. Just London and the cereal in the events of Farfur Roeb, etc, etc.

Fury's baking his way before the drink around the office, remarking upon the clocks, another, like a curry thing, of course. And this is when he plants a camera lens on the eyeball of an owl, a bronze owl. Now, my, we're kind of going to always, we used to do in some pods theory corner is a separate segment. We're just sort of always in Theory Corner in our secret version pods. That's how it's going to go. Yeah. My feeling on this is I have a couple, a couple, I came down in a couple places.

One, later when Sonia is just dunking on Fury, saying that he's not ready. He's off his game. If he can't stop her goons from getting them, how's he going to see Gravick at his people coming? and he's like, I wanted them to bring me to you. One, I believe him. I think that he did want that to happen so that he could get to her and plant the lens. I also think that she knows he did that.

There is no way that she doesn't suspect when he's going around her room touching every surface that Nick Fury, the spy of spies, has planted something in her office. And so it makes me wonder if the scene that we see later where there is this like, compared to her very, like, loose air here, a very, like, stiff, here are the details of who is making this bomb and where it will be exchange, that that felt like a staged conversation to me because she knew

Fury was watching. Where did you come down on all of that? And how, what did you feel about the scene overall and the dynamic between Samuel L. Jackson, Olivia Coleman, Nick Fury, and Sonia? I love this scene. I do believe that Nick Fury got himself intentionally nabbed. I think it's a weird rookie mistake to, like, kind of say that he did or whatever. I am not following you down the second part of this theory, though I'm happy to be wrong, but to me it feels like a complication too far for... For an MI6 agent to suspect a spy of plaintiffs in her office? No, for a Marvel show.

I mean, I know that I'm out here, like, quoting swaths of lecorate to you, so, like, you know, I'm, like, placing the bar high as well, but I'm just sort of like, in a show where where they're hoping, I think, to blow our minds with, like, a roadie reveal or something like that. I don't know that there are these, this many twists and bends in the road, but I'm happy to be wrong. This is one that I'm not going to follow you on, but that that means you get the joy of gloating if you're right. So hold on to that. I would say, I'm thinking this is my secret invasion experience prepared to be wrong about like 97% of the things that I say. It's good.

The clock thing pings something else for me, actually, because I'm on. on my like, living my best third man life. There's this line, iconic line in the third man where Orson Well's character says, don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy, for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed,

but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy. democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So like, I don't know, the clocks, the like orderliness of the clocks really, really pop that up for me. I think it's interesting. And this is such a, this is such a classic iconic. I don't know about you, but I always think about like Chris Ryan when I think about espionage things. And I like, I know that he and Andy

to not have a great time with this episode of television. But, like, thinking about, I've had conversations with Chris about this very kind of scene, which is two old spies who have such a history together, and maybe they were on opposite sides of something. But the history is, though, it's been so long and nobody else understands what they went through, the way that they understand. Do you know what I mean? That kind of special two old spies connection, which we see in slow horses, etc. That's one of the best things about, yeah, about Jackson lamb and slow horses.

Yeah, is... Dad and him saying you can wash a coat. Historic. It was remarkable. What about the way that he eats noodles? As you know, loud chewing really bothers me, so I had a really hard time with that scene, even though it was hysterical. Watch slow horses is what we're saying.

But I think this is exactly the kind of stereotypical espionage lacqueray scene. pulled off masterfully by two incredible charismatic performers who exactly know what they're doing here. And then as you wrote in our notes and I completely agree. And then it just sort of lands with a clunk when they talk about Thanos. Like in a way that we don't need to know, like underlining a point that needs no underlining because it's just, it's not subtext, it's the text. This was like, this scene was magic. Yeah.

It was the equivalent to me of like blowing a no hitter in the ninth. You're there. Like you have I understand that. Genuinely. And you as Joanna of lifelong baseball enthusiast know what it's like to get into that ninth inning. I do. No hits on the board. And then man, there it is.

Just like a dribbler. Why? I think Thanos's snap changed you, taught you that no matter how hard you fight for what's right, there's always someone stronger to undermine you. We know. I think there's, I think the story they're trying to tell, per that earlier St. Melo Jackson quote that I read from Empire, is the world underestimating Fury because he is older, physically unwell, like all this sort of stuff like that.

I mean, she literally calls him this new rather old Nick Fury right before that, which is quite rude. Which is why I think it's possible that she does not think he planted something in her office. Do you know what I mean? only because I think that's the story they're trying to tell. But, like, if I were writing a role for Olivia Coleman, I would not let her have anything, but sharp edges. Yeah. Yeah.

I did love when she said, is that why you came down from your space station? You feel responsible, like, even though that's also very overt and direct. But I love the way she says that. Come down from your space station. Like, it's so condescending. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like she's just hurling that guilt that is already just consuming him right on top of him. He's kind of like, you know, to your point from a few minutes ago about should he have said, well, I let them capture me, which I kind of liked because he's like, hey, I've still got it. Like, don't don't count me out yet. It was interesting when he pointed out that he had knows so much more about the scroll than anyone else and has been dealing with them for 30 years because it gets a little bit of an own goal given the context. Like, do you want to remind us? mind everyone that you were the guy in charge of this relationship when it is all crumbled in front

of us. And it has given her reason to hesitate when he pitches good old fashioned team up. She describes him as a, quote, rather pointless potential partner, which again, is this is Nick Fury. Like, let's show some respect. This is just exceedingly rude. But it was very funny. Very, very, very funny. Funny in a much different way was the title card 312 KM kilometers southwest of Moscow. This like had me in stitches. Did you break out Google Maps? Were you plotting the course? Do you think there's very precise location?

Southwest Moscow, they also enjoyed turquoise jewelry and Tex-Mex? Actually loved this opening, right? Again, in the world of espionage, a code call and response, what do you want, Bito, not Beto, this scroll that we meet with a fetching hat, says, home in my own skin. I love that phrase. Home in my own skin. Me too. Great writing. You understand what they're fighting for.

It is beautiful writing and you understand what they're fighting for. Who wouldn't want that? Home in my own skin. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting because on the end or beat, your favorite topic. the and or Andor is my favorite

topic. The and or twofer of espionage plus rousing rebel resistance rhetoric, etc. We got Neal from a listener who is like, I say the espionage, I don't see the like resistance element

and it's like, I mean that's that's what graphics doing. Like this is the this is the resistance is these scrolls living in a, you know, in pseudo-Ternobal. So scroll mobile. Well, they can live in the abandoned plants, Joe, because they, the radiation doesn't,

doesn't impact them. And those plants are not on the grid. So a lot of hideouts, very convenient for graphic and co. Can I just say that, like, I know you and I have collections spent so many hours staring at her. And we've also, you know, probably been, been near her. I always forget how absolutely minuscule. Amelia Clark is. She's the tiniest person in the world. And she's like so charming and charismatic.

And here she comes. But I'm also like, that is a tiny little lady. I was absolutely thrilled to see her. It's just great to be back with Amelia Clark. Gaya. With a welcome to new scrollos, Joe. And food. sustenance. A snack in the glove compartment of a car. But it seemed like a meaningful snack. A weird fruit in the glove. Like would you? The fruit is our homeland though. So that's something. Right. But would you put a papaya in the glove box? Like, would I eat anything organic that had just been sitting in a glove box? Oh, yeah, loose. Unwrapped? No, ice pack?

Yeah. A little foil? A loosey, you know? Like, I don't... Nary a sheet of wax paper in sight? Unlikely. That said, if it had been ages since I had gotten to enjoy the taste of something that reminded me of home. Like if someone...

If I hadn't been to Maryland in a long time... A lobster roll. How dare you? Crab cake. A crab cake. If someone pulled out a crab cake, you know, if someone pulled out a steam crab covered an old base seasoning and I could feel it hit my bloodstream.

Yeah, but just there like. When the shell cut my hands. Their hand reached into the glove compartment and it's just a crab cake. No wax paper. Anyway. What did you think about the wine? We only grow scroll produce here. Drink scroll wine.

Where scroll skins. Whatever dangers you risk getting here, no, they're worth it. Wonderful. What do you think cocktail hours like here in New Scrollos? I bet that scroll wine is disgustingly sugary, given what we know about their drinking taste. Do you like a sweet wine? No, I hate dessert wine. Like a fucking Giverstermeanor?

What about like a lovely like a port or a cream sherry? No, uh-uh. No. Love. Love. All right. You have new food fodder to chime in on folks at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. I like a dry, like a bone dry stuff.

Avenille en Blanc or a bone, bone, dry champagne. Okay. Interesting. Here's my favorite thing about New Scrolos slash Skrle Noble is that kids playing soccer. Yeah. It's very sweet. Is it like this is what we saw also in Ethan Hawks cult in Moonnight? Yeah.

It's like everybody's making soup together. It looks wonderful. It's a great way to establish no, we are not a terrorist organization or no, we're not a murder cult. but guess what they are. They are a terrorist organization and Ethan Hawk had broken glass in his shoes. So was anyone here walking around with broken glass in their sandals?

They're just playing footy, you know? I am hopeful that we all equally enjoyed the moment when Amelia Clark said, the longer you stay in your shells, the harder it is for people to detect you. And all of us at home were like, ah, we get to look at Amelia Clark's face a bunch and Kingsley Benedere's face a bunch.

Friling. Now they have a plot reason why. Yeah. This is great. Definitely handled in one line. You will not be seeing scroll prosthetics on Amelia Clark. Not often. Yeah, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely wonderful. We get a little parting of the ways with Bito and Gaia here. Some ominous large doors, some big metal doors. You always wonder what's behind there. And this is said aloud. What's my victory, Joanna. That's what.

Real DeNaris Targaryen energy behind that victory. I felt it. It took me back. I had to work through it. And what does that mean? What is victory? Well, we see these fracking pods. Not only are the scrolls taking the shape, the form, the face of a human shell,

such as a skin suit, you got to know how to pull off the impersonation that are taking their memories. Now we saw this technology back in Captain Marvel. We're seeing it here in a genuinely like harrowing and horrifying way. It is a conveyor belt. It is just pod after pod of stripping and pulling of memory of essence. Like the ring of our speed? Just cranking. Like Chris Ryan on the watch, you know?

His crank children. And we witnessed Gaia go over to join. and watch what is basically an initiation. This is a member of the Americans against Russia, AAR, one of the groups that will now be used by Gravick & Co as a front for their attack. And we get an exchange between Hagen and Brogan. Hagen is a character in the comics. Do you think Electra will be making an appearance in?

What's Jen Garner up to? That's my question. We get a repetition here, like a recurrence of that home in my own skin line. What is your name? Warrior. What is your fight? Scrollos. What is your dream home in my own skin?

I love this. I thought this was great writing. Like, you know, the call and response. Incredible stuff. And I think that also that sub, we're going to be talking about a lot. I think this season is this question of identity, right? And so the idea that you like, what is your name? This is a character who has a name, but they say warrior, that's subsuming of your identity into the cause.

And also, I mean, for the scrolls who have lived here, like for Gaia, who was child, when we met her in Captain Marvel, has lived her life on Earth. Like, what, you know, how much of you, like, we talk about this a lot when we talk about sort of like body snatching or whatever. face swapping stories is like, what does it do to you psychologically to stay in that skin, to stay in your Amelia Clark shape shell? Yeah, when does that start to feel like it is who you are at a certain point? Yeah, exactly. I thought, I'm glad you called out the warrior thing because I think there's that interesting then tension inside of home in my own skin idea because there's a beauty to that and a power

to that that that we just discussed, but also like if you are losing your sense of individuality, One of the things we chat about a lot is when we talk about Star Wars and we talk about like the clones and how important it was in the animated series. The Clone Wars, for example, to see not only the personalities of each of the clones, but the moments where they took a name. They said, this is who I am and this is what the name that I have given myself or my, my comrades have given me, like says about what is unique and specific to me. These scroll warriors are stripping that away. And so is it your own skin if you're not allowed to be who you are? I think to actually to hop forward to a second to that scene where Gravick puts an unholy amount of sugar in his tea. When Pagan is talking to him and he says, we're the circle, no one else, is that to protect me or the cause?

You are the cause. I'm not the cause. The cause is home. I think that exchange is so interesting because one, you know, thinking of again, Kingsley Benedere has played the likes of Barack Obama and Malcolm X's idea of like cult of personality or just sort of like the leader becomes this like figure. So you are the cause. You know, Gravick, you're the person I follow. You are the thing blah. And he's like, no, it's not about me. The cause is like. Yeah, we we we dissolve our individuality into the larger cause. That's the ideology that he's preaching here. You know what I mean? And I think that feeds back into this idea of what is your name, warrior, et cetera, et cetera. thought that exchange was really riveting and like interesting to revisit and try to read what Gravick is like emoting and conveying there because there's this simmering intensity when he says, I'm not the cause, the cause is home trying to suss out that dynamic. There's like a boldness

initially when Paghan comes over with this information about Fury's turn and then like almost like a shrinking in the face of that. rejection, right? And that's like, again, that balance of, well, if you have that level of power to get people to follow you to make them feel your wrath, then you are. You are the cause. You are the rallying point around the cause at least. And so if you reject that because you fear it or because you don't want them to see that it is true, like where do the scales tip? I'm really curious to see how that plays out over the season. Quick, quick little seem, but a good one. Not since Hank Pim trained Scott Lang to control the ants has a cube of sugar played such a central role in the

Marvel Cinematic Universe. But before that, we had another stretch with Fury and Hill and Talos. This was that moment that we talked about earlier where they are watching this exchange between Sonia and one of her men about Prishin and the dirty bombs. where they're going to be. I loved when Tayloros is like, she's cheeky. No, but like, it's the Ben,

she's cheeky. Like that Ben Mendelsohn just dry, dries a bone, love it. Absolutely delightful. What do you think of this exchange about scroll attractiveness? Talos noting that he's considered good-looking among his people.

And Fury's like, I've seen some good-looking scrolls and you're not one. How did this sit with you? Absolutely bullshit. Ben Mendelsohn is like, Ben Mendelsohn is one of the most magnetic, bizarrely magnetic people that has ever existed.

So absolutely. I believe that moths of the flame, Talos can get it. I mean, though, I guess if we're adhering to strict canon, Ben Mendelsohn is really just the old shell. That has nothing to do, I guess, with whether he's handsome as a scroll. Do you think he meant his shell or his scroll form?

Why not both is my question? Here's what I think is the even more significant part of this sequence, whether or not Sonia is putting on a false front. Right. And if she is, then it's just, I guess, to get Nick and Maria to do her dirty work for her, I suppose. Right. Fury wants to attack MI6. Taylor's can't believe it. Fury is like Scorched Earth. Yeah, we are in a race with Sonia Fallsworth who celebrates a scorched earth policy, meaning she will annihilate any and everyone who's ever even heard of the name Gravick.

And, like, again, this feeds into a lot of spy stories, this idea of, like, the spy or the figure, the MI6 figure or whatever, whoever it is who's like at any cost, victory at any cost. Or what did the little people matter? I'm going to hate you with another third man quote. Everyone just go watch a third man. What a great movie. And there's this great quote where he goes. You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims don't be melodramatic.

Look down there. Tell me, would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you 20,000 pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? Or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man, free of income tax, the only way you can save money nowadays. So, like, this idea of, like, the collateral damage and the way I suppose, when you're a spy or when you've been at the game long enough to be as cynical as some people

become, like you can't think of humanity or the other lives that way. So you've got Sonia on one end of the spectrum and then you've got Talos as we find out on this understand, like too soft, too merciful, too hesitant, all this sort of stuff like that. And Fury is pushing against that right here, right? But where is the sweet spot? Like Fury is in Fury's own mind, he's got the right balance of mercy and scorched earth or whatever. But like, does he? You know? Well, I thought it was interesting, too, that he wasn't only projecting his maybe personal philosophy.

Like, at first it felt that way when he said, you want to save innocent scrolls. You're going to have to hurt some people. But then what does he do? He points out what Gravick thinks about Talos, that they will try to weaponize. Gravick knows that mercy is your weakness. The madness of mercy. our old favorite Ned Stark talking point, like. But that's already,

it's already used in this episode because my interpretation of what happens is that Gravick dispatches Gaia to her dad. I mean, I know people are like, that wasn't really Gaia or whatever, you can decide that if you want. But like, when Gaia goes to tell Talos about the marked bags and all that sort of stuff like that, and I think she's acting on Gravick's orders in that. Is that your interpretation? What do you think? I don't know. I think they left it open to either because like when she goes back to the base,

she doesn't rat out her dad to Pagan. That we see. But I feel like that's a. Yeah. And like we don't see the bag handoff either. So they leave it open there to like did she actually. bring decoy bags and lie or did someone else swap them because they're onto her? Maybe they know that I think either would be in play at this point, which I guess is interesting.

Well, no matter what then, they're operating under an assumption that, of course, Taylorst would have a weakness for his daughter. If he has a weakness for a random art dealer. Right. That was a scene that I was thinking of when he's like, I don't, you know, I got it. Part of it is like, does he just want to prove that he's. capable. No, no, no.

I think it's like, I don't want any scrolls to die, right? He doesn't want scroll blood on his hands. But I think in terms of the way in which Gravick can weaponize that, Gaia is the best instrument for that. For sure. Right?

Yeah. He's willing to do anything and to use anyone. Mm-hmm. And his opponent isn't. Or at least Taylor. That's far. Maybe Fury is. Right.

Speaking of our, our favorite bomb-making painter and that whole sequence, before we learn that Papyrgyn is in fact also a scroll, got that scroll strength when they start to fight before that whole exchange. This was a very amusing sequence. We have the Louis 15th chair moment.

I loved, as already mentioned, when Talos was like dunking on the quality of the shitty little paintings, but also when he then went out of his way to say, we know you're lying, specifically because we know that your wife has left you and is fucking a soccer player in Miami. Ben Mendelso is so funny.

Top crowd. That was just absolutely. What I do think is a little funny is like, so Talos and this other scroll are fighting, and they're both superpowered, so they're both, you know, they've both got scroll strength, so they're both evenly matched.

Then we get the Gaia Hill fight which is, I was like, yes, Gaia wins, but should she not have won so much faster than she did since Maria Hill is just a person? You know what I mean? Fighting her? Yeah. Well, and also, Hill doesn't recognize her. So was your interpretation of that that she had taken,

the Gaia had taken the Amelia Clark form pretty recently? Yeah, relatively recently. Yeah. We don't know how long it's been since Maria's seen Gaia. Hill dispensed with easily in the tunnel, not dispensed with permanently quite yet. So who else has to pursue? Because Guy has got the bombs in the pack. Dad.

Intense sequence here, Joanna. He's like, mom's dead. It was a weird, it was a weird exchange about mom's dead. This could not have been communicated previously? So weird. Very, very, very strange. why don't you ask the people that you work for? When he said last warning,

I liked that her response and this was what you always say. But there's always another. I really liked that. How many chances is too many chances? The mom's stuff was honestly bizarre to me. But, you know. And to your point in your theory

about her working him and this whole thing, potentially having been a con, which I think, again, is completely, if not probable and bounds at least, playing on that, like knowing that is a liability, that charity in his heart, and with her specifically, he takes his gun apart, he puts it down, allowing her ultimately to knock him over and run away.

Okay, well, last warning, it's not going to be the last warning. I'm going to be able to warm my way back and get that proximity that we need. He says the thing again later, like, right? You have one chance to save yourself, and I think you know that, and I think that's why you're here. And in my head, I'm like, no, I bet she has endless chances to save herself with you, my guy. You know what I mean? This was also, though, like, here you say that's made me think it's also a cross-character's a recurring beat in the episode because with the art, the art slash bomb dealer, like,

Fury has that whole, you get one lie. But you don't get a second. So that's like a through line of the episode. You have one chance. You can fuck up once, but not again. And like, you can hold that ground with a stranger who, you're there to best anyway, but can you do it with your kid? Can you do it with someone who knows how to emotionally undermine you?

You know? I mean, that is ultimately like some of the more successful as we talk about a lot. Marvel stories do have that connection between the quote-to-quote villain and the quote-unquote hero. Like the forces who are opposed, it's that Bucky Steve idea from Winter Soldier that we love and many of the other conversations we've had about Loki, et cetera. Like if there's that affection and that history, that connection, that character can hurt you in a way that a stranger just simply cannot. So I like the idea of Gaia remain, and I like the idea in that sense that she was tricking him. Because I think that's a richer text to play with. You're my mission.

Just watch Winter's Silverfish. I mean, I would love to. Absolutely any time. Okay. So let's talk about Maria Hill because. Yeah. Before we go to the attack, we've got to have a drink. We've got to have a game of chess.

This is the last episode. I mean, so Kobe Smelder's gave an interview to David Canfield of our Vanity Fair where she, like, unless she's lying, which maybe she is. Like they do that sometimes. It would be the first time. You know, she's like, this is it. Right? I'm done.

And I was so shocked. Never forget how many times Andrew Garfield said he wasn't in no way home. I was. Someone who has got a person who works for Doordash in Atlanta was like, but I saw you, dude. And he's like, couldn't be me. Anyway. So yeah, Kobe Smolders might be lying. I choose to believe that she was.

She would just no comment it rather than give this elaborate interview to VF. But anyway, let's say this is her last hurrah. It feels like this is probably the end for Maria Hill. So they give her a juicy scene before she goes, right? And I thought this is really good. And like, it makes me lament the fact that we haven't had more opportunity for Kobe Smolders to do this to establish Maria Hill as someone even more significant to us. in the franchise. She's just always been there

by Nick Fury's side. And so just by dint of years and years and years of her being, you know, snapped with him, being everywhere with him, etc. Like being the one to know that he wasn't actually dead, all this sort of stuff.

Like, we understand that bond. But as always, I would love a little bit more with a character, especially when they're portrayed by someone who could do what Kobe Smolders is capable of doing. You already mentioned, Fury goes in the bar, sees a Russian dude who I believe is actually Gravick.

I've seen different interpretations. But I believe that was... Oh, you think it's Gravick there in the moment, not that you just took his shell later. Yeah, I think that's Gravick. I think the lady making out is gravick. I think the child is gravick. I think he's just sort of like it was all me.

Or maybe it was all like my lieutenants, but I think it was all him. And I love that exchange. But anyway, they start playing a metaphor. I mean, chess. with each other, iconic spycraft scene. Speaking of slow horses, great chess content and slow horses in season two. But yeah, this idea of Nick Fury's crisis of faith, which we talked about at the top of the pot or we heard about at the top of the pod, you're sure you're not talking about someone else in reply to him saying you owes it to Talos.

What do you think this is about? I've shouted out loud. Tony Stark built this show in a cave with the fox scraps. I mean, I guess this could be about Carol. I think that read is valid, but this just felt like it was about Tony to me. And calling upon invoking their history, the history of forming the Avengers, how central Tony Stark and Iron Man were to that into Fury's history. And because of Tony's death, this specific way that he thinks he feels.

failed way that he thinks he let down somebody in his life and then the way that he just let down other people as a result of it like Maria calling him out here on ghosting her on abandoning her I like to think I would just like to go back and say I would like to think it as equal parts Tony and Natasha because justice for Natasha always and Natasha worked more directly for Nick right but like yes both your Tony bias needs to be challenged sometimes I love it To quote you from mere moments ago, it's the MCU. I mean, one of these characters has gotten like a funeral and murals in every single frame that followed and one of them has not. So who is it more likely?

I would think that would be lovely if it was about Natasha. Do I think that's what the show is calling upon? I don't know. He works so much closely with her. Anyway. I miss Nat dearly. I would love to. I mean, I also love Tony.

I would say Nott's name. That would be great. You just did. Good for you. Thanks. I'm better than other people. All right. So, yeah, she's pissed that he, that he ghosted her. We've already talked about, like, where this belongs phase four, phase five. Again, we're talking about snaps and Tony Stark and Natasha, etc., etc. But Maria says to him, you always told me there's no shame in walking away when the steps are uncertain. So check your footing. Otherwise, someone's going to get hurt. Like me, Kobe Smolders, who no longer gets to collect Marvel paycheck. anymore. God fucking damn it. He's going to have to carry that now too, as if he weren't already burdened, right? He's going to be thinking about those words. Yes.

As he think about what he loses at the end of the episode. Yes. And, you know, to zip ahead to for a second and we'll kind of go through the beats. But the moment when he'll dies, his response, the cry, the scream. Like, that is a level of emotion that we are unaccustomed to seeing from Nick Fury. Like he is going to feel that in a way that is lasting and unique and will guide much of

what is to come shortly in the series. When he says your mom would be very proud of you and she has tears in her eyes, that's why I think she's betraying him. Do you know what I mean? Because you can read it, of course, is emotional like, oh, my God, mom would be proud of me. But I read it as she's lying. to him in this moment.

You know what you mean? And it hurts her to hear your mom will be proud of you. Yeah, I like that. I'm with you on that. I also think there's just something here that we know from her specifically as a lie, which, like, really heightens the suspicion when she says, he asks, because he's able to deduce, she says, I don't know. Gravick knows you'll be there, right?

And he says, how? I don't know. We have so many operatives in the field, 100 at least. he's asking about if they're using fracking pods. Like the implication there is that someone close to him is a scroll, right? Is feeding information to grab it. But when she says, I don't know, like, we are old enough to remember because it was just a few scenes prior, her walking behind those doors where victory rested and walking by fracking pot after fracking pot.

And then watching an initiation, she's the one that pagan tasks with going to retrieve the problem. Like she is in the inner circle, right? So we just know this is a lie. Now, might there be some operatives whose identity is not known to her? Sure. But she has a level of awareness that she is not revealing here. And so this was one of the real like siren blaring. He's being played and he doesn't realize moments for sure.

For sure. When she says earlier, when he says, I'll protect you and she says you can't protect anyone, I don't think that we saw anything in this episode. that was enough of an evolution for her to have a change of heart. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think the only thing would be that, like, your mother was killed while you were working for her killers. But then, like, she wouldn't interrogate that. She wouldn't confront Gravick about that.

She wouldn't ask someone about that. Like, that makes no, you know. Well, maybe she's going to be a double agent and try to remain in their good graces to learn from within what happened there. That would, I guess, be possible. I'm with you. I think the more likely. an interesting interpretation is that she's, she's playing her dad.

It was ready to be duped, has established many times in this episode. Anything about the actual attack sequence, this stretch in the yard. I mean, I guess it's on Unity Day out in the courtyard. I guess it's like broadly, we have this sequence,

following your mark, infrared tracking, the marked bags, missing the handoff. Oh, they're decoys. Gravick showing up as the little girl into the,

I thought that was cool. Bench into, yeah, into the guy from the bar, into graphic. That part was great. The earlier scene with the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, uh, Ross Chase and then the Gaia chase, like, did those aspects of the spy thriller, we are in an espionage pursuit story, like, excite you over the course of the episode? Did one of them work and grip you more than the others? I think mixed, but I think the revelation that all these little characters, I mean, we,

we probably all flagged the child with the ball moment that felt like really I mean they all do yeah we really linger on the woman on the bench looking at him yeah the one of the bench she stares at him

yeah spooky kid with the ball but still to like just watch him do it to do it silently just to show Nick like it's all been me was so good again in Kingsley Bennett and Deere just like his face alone

just works for me so yeah the the absolute like flex and dominance in that gaze, like I have bested you in a way that you are only really now beginning to understand. And I think that works whether or not, like, was it Gravick on the bench, was a graphic holding the ball, was a graphic at the bar, or did he later assume those forms for this moment? The fact that he is in plain view, in rapid succession, transforming from one person into another, just to say, I want you, tell Cersie, I'm

want her to know it was me. Yeah. You know? Doing that flex whilst also intentionally distracting. Right. Nick Fury in that revelation. Yeah. Not just to get the hill, but to like, and then just like deadening the bomb's like right

the fuck in front of him, you know? And to be like, you've been had nine different ways in this episode. And now I'm going to take out your closest lieutenant. And like I think he knows the fury sees me. That's fury see. Yeah. Like, he lets him see him standing there, trips, where they're detonating, walking away. And, like, we don't know the relationship between Gravick and Fury, and I hope we get more information on that.

But, like, the way that Taylor says, like, he took it hard, mate, you know what I mean? Like, they had an existing relationship that we were going to learn more about, you know? So, and then the death of Marie Hill. And I just got to tell you, this is my least favorite part of this episode, because I'm not mad at, that Maria Hill is dead necessarily. Like she's, again, not a character that we have spent that much time with. The EMCU does have a pretty nasty history of killing off women to motivate men. So this is just like another on a long line.

We got a lot of emails about that. And I agree with that. And but I think, and this might sound callous of me. But like, the biggest sin is that it is just so inert. Like, if you're going to do that, if you're going to fridge someone, Like, give me a moment that has me, you know, feeling it. And it's just sort of like in the chaos, it happens. And then he has to leave her and just lying there.

And we do see him, like, his face is giving us more than we usually see from Nick Fury. That's true. And perhaps we will dwell more in the fallout of this in the upcoming episodes. It will make it feel that way to me. but the way it happens at the end of this episode is so abrupt and weird. And it really felt to me like not just the motivator aspect, but the whole like, we mean business.

We, if Maria Hill can die in episode one, you won't know what's coming next. And I'm like, I don't think that means what you think it means. Yeah. With respect to, with sincere respect to Kobe Smoulders and people who love Maria Hill

and Maria Hill has a very long comics history in addition to the MCU history, like, this has never been a character I have personally invested in in the MCU. I mean, I think, like, the, some of the highlights are like, he's fast, she's weird, which are like, low lights, you know? This is not, so I think the bumping up against the MCU tendency to fridge female characters to motivate male protagonist is, of course, of course valid. Maria Hill dying.

I was like, oh, I have never grown attached to Maria Hill because they never knew how to use her. It was a waste of a character across the entire history of the MCU. Or if they were going to do this, I needed like three episodes to like really give her stuff to do in this season. And, you know, three more episodes. If you have three, like, because you can do that in Andor, you know, like, sorry. But like, Nebuch dies and I will never recover from it. You know what I mean? So, like, you can do it in three episodes.

My honest response is they couldn't do it in 15 years with Maria Hill. Or they didn't. So what would change you over three episodes? But I'm saying they weren't making a priority. If you make it a priority in the season to, like, really give me who she is and, like, give me more of her relationship with Nick. It's still not a move that I like. I still don't think it's the move. But it felt to me like they were trying to, like, just make this big move at the end of episode one.

And I'm like, a splashy death. I don't think this is what you think it is. But to go back to that earlier statement from Samuel Jackson about this idea of like lone gunslinger Nick Fury, stripping away Maria Hill is a part of that. But my question is like to get to lone gunslinger Nick Fury, what is going to happen to Talos? Talos. I never know what the vowel sound is on that name. Talos. It's like Thanos and Thanos.

Seems like it should be Talos. Talos. Talos. Talos. Talos. It's a tough one. What's going to happen to? Taylor's, right?

Like, I can't imagine he makes it out of this series. Cannot imagine. So how, like, how quickly does it happen? And does his daughter do it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, theory corner. Or is that what brings her back to the light? Right. If Gravick kills him. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm going with that. Yeah. I like it. Amelia Clark can remain in the MCU as a hero. And we fridge, refringe Taylor so that Amelia Clark can have a motivation. I love that. Love that.

Love it. I hope Tayloris lives forever. I love Ben Mendelsohn. Anything else in the episode before we rapid fire hit our little final section here? I think we've given this episode way more than it does. Easter eggs. We've talked about a ton of these already. Any favorites that you want to mention for the first time or revisit here quickly?

I don't know. I mean, there's plenty, but none that I feel like. Yeah. Oh, the Schwarm a truck. Sure. Swarm a truck. Yeah. Good stuff.

I think mine, I'm going to go with Nixon because we really lingered on the Nixon and Reagan portraits in the White House. Do you think they were the walk-and-talk? Well, and so Nixon, you know, and Xerksu gets a very quick mention in this episode, and one of the forms that Zirksu takes in the comics is Nixon. So I like the, I like that. Great stuff. Do you think that Sonia Falsworth is?

is in fact a descendant of former Howling Commando, James Montgomery Falsworth, as many are speculating. I would love that. I love JJ Field. So any moment that I can think about, lovely JJ Field and his dashing mustache, I'm happy to do so. Delightful. Wig Watch with Joanna Robinson. It's Hat Watch this week.

And Hot Watch is going to dovetail into VFX Watch because they did a thing here that they also do in Dial Destiny. which is to use a hat to cover a face-changing VFX moment. So when Beto takes his hat off and pulls it down and he goes from human to scroll, there's a great moment in Dial of Destiny where Harrison Ford just, like, puts his fedora in front of someone's face and ready to do something. And I was like, oh, the old hat cover maneuver. So Bito's hat.

Okay, I'm excited for you to track the hat deployment across the season. I won't. If this show had Netflix subtitles, this is one of our other fun recurring bits that we like to break out here. Flesh descending wetly from the Stranger Things Days, if we got that sort of treatment on this episode, what would we have seen?

My goes like this. The friendly face of Tim Canterbury, I mean Dr. John Watson, I mean Bill Bow Buggins. I mean Agent Everett Ross. Splats on the Moscow covalstones like a juicy overripe honeydew melon. Is it weird that that made me hungry? I love honeydew. Mid-afternoon, snack time.

I love a honeydew. That was beautiful. Splats is a great one. We actually got a squelching in the actual subtitles for this episode, and so I am taking, that really felt like a Netflix-esque usage. Yeah. And so I felt I felt called upon to incorporate that. And so I am going with sad cuckleded painterly bomb-making spy squelches back into scroll form,

dig it unfaithful wife inferior paintings and bizarre chair fetish lingering and increasingly pointy years as he withers and dies. Masterful. RIP to that guy. Rest of pieces. Joe, did you want to introduce any new segments before we end on Secret Scroll? You know what Mallory Rove and I would And it goes a little something like this Character we'd most like to get in a fracking pod with

Thank you, Carlos This is a remarkable prompt given that Fracking pods are canonically established in the MCU As vessels to Pull your memories out of your head and allow Oh God, great stuff, you know, it's wonderful. But I was thinking even though it's spelled differently of Battlestar. You know, Frack and Battlestar.

Yeah, with a frack. Yeah, with a frack. So let's go to the fuck pod. Who are you taking to the fuck pod? Olivia Coleman in like Red Silk. I thought she looked extraordinary and I'm taking her to the frack pod with me. Great. That's beautiful.

I'm going with Amelia Clark's Gaia. Great. Could erase my mind anytime she wants. Hell yeah. That brings us to the bit that has lived on House of Art and anticipation of this television. program since, as you noted earlier, shocking to say, shocking to realize the internals. We were debating how to keep Secret Scroll going now that we are in fact in the television

show designed to reveal who the Secret Scrolls are. We've talked throughout the episode about our candidates. I mean, is there any quick summation you want to do with your top actual candidates here at the end or you just want to go old school with a classic house of our joke answer? Top two candidates for me right now. Yeah. Real candidates.

Rody, number one. Yes. Give me Sharon Carter. Give me Sharon Carter and let my heart rest at long past. My top two real ones are Rody and Val right now, I think. Though I'm on Sonia watch as well. But like if Val is a scroll, does that mean like we're extending the scroll storyline into Thunderbolts? Or is that real Val coming back?

are real Val and real Ross in the prison camp together and they can like rekindle their romance as they as they as they as they try to escape the frackpot. Wow. All right. My old school house of our answer for this. The true spirit of the exercise. And what's hilarious about this episode is like, okay, let's try to pick like a minor character or whatever. It's really hard to find a minor character who is not actually gravick.

So I went with one of Sonya's extraordinary thugs, but not both of them, just one of them. I considered just which one. The one on the left. I consider the guy that's... And the one on the right is going to be devastated when he finds out. That'll be the emotional wallop that we built to in Civil Invasion. I did consider the person who Sonia was talking to in the conversation that I think may have been staged. But ultimately, I have decided after careful consideration to go with the White House portrait curator.

Because there's a lot of time spent drawing our attention to these figures from our political past who were definitely at some point secret scrolls And that feels like something that a scroll in that position would do Let me just populate these halls with reminders Of how you have failed and how we have won Can I just say that one of my picks for Secret Scroll For House of the Dragon was the actor who plays the boar

Great stuff. And then for Obi-1, it was Guard who gets baffled by the metal detector with Tala. What a journey we've been on together. Incredible. Wow. All right. Anything else, Joe, about Secret Invasion episode one? I'm delighted to be back on a Disney Plus show with you.

And I am hopeful that this show turns out to be one that we love. And it could still happen. Absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe next week we'll be like, move over Andor. Get, we'll never hear us say that on this podcast. Get in the pit and or it's secret invasion all the one. Oh, God.

All right. Everybody gets one, but nobody gets two except you because we are coming back next week with a secret invasion episode two deep dive. Thank you to our skyplant enthusiasm. Carlos Chiroboga for producing this episode. Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode. And Joomi Adonon, first work on the social for this episode. Remember to head back into the Ring ofverse this weekend for a Ross theory video from Jessica.

Pop back over next week for Final Fantasy Video Game Talk on Monday. Secret Evasion Episode 2 Instant Reaction on Thursday, deep dive on... No, on Wednesday, deep dive on Thursday. And a Dial of Destiny, House of Midnight. team up on Friday. Until then, remember that chair belonged to Louis XIV. It's priceless!