House of R - ‘Spider-Noir’ Season 1 and Mantzoukas Recommends With Jason Mantzoukas!

Episode Date: May 30, 2026

Mal and Jo are joined by Jason Mantzoukas to talk about Season 1 of ‘Spider-Noir.’ Plus, Jason talks about ‘Frieren: Beyond Journey's End’ and ‘The Apothecary Diaries’ as well as some other recommendations he has for Mal and Jo!(00:00) Intro(16:48) ‘Spider-Noir’(01:24:07) Mantzoukas RecommendsExplore the exclusive collection at ⁠Target.com⁠Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinGuest: Jason MantzoukasProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings. And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. She's Joanna Robinson and Friend of the Pod Month would not have been complete without Jason fucking Mansookis. Let's go. Let's go. I'm setting the tone. We're getting this done.

Shorzy style. Shorzy reference right away. I love it. Would you say he's the friend of the pod? This is our last friend of the pod month episode. Oh, am I the last? Oh, wow. What an honor.

You won't be the last guest in the history of the podcast and let something goes really wrong today, which like, don't roll it out. But for this inaugural friend of the pod month, I'm honored to please be batting cleanup. Yeah. To do a sports reference. We both made a baseball reference. Did I do it right? Well, I went with closer, which I think is slightly more appropriate than batting cleanup, but I think that's also acceptable. What I was promises that you don't care for sports.

I hate sports. Great. Here's my deal. Where's my camera? there, right there? I hate sports. They're all yours. Not interested ringer.com. Yeah. Well, you've mentioned a hockey show. Yeah. You've made a batting cleanup reference. God damn it. I fucked it up already. I can't wait to see how you incorporate the NBA finals into the discussion today. Are they happening right now? And I don't know. I couldn't tell you which teams are in the NBA

finals if it's happening. Must have enough Knicks fans in your life. Oh, I know the Knicks are a thing. Oklahoma is city. City. Thunder. Wow. Oh, don't, Joanna, don't. I know you're a Spurs. Do not become a Sporto. Because Wemby is a fantasy literature nerd. So the Spurs are a part of your life because of Wemby. I do know that Wembe showed up to a game wearing a garment last night.

He did? That's all I know. He sits down in the locker room. He reads like Brando Sando, Brandon Sandor. Wow. We're going to talk about all that. We're going to talk about season one of Spider-Nuar. We're going to talk a little freer-in.

You're going to recommend some other anime to us that you think we should. check out. Honestly, I don't really know what we're going to talk about today. I'm a 53-year-old man with a crunchy roll subscription. I have no children and things are going great. Your home. This is where you belong. I'm thrilled to be here. We can't wait to get into it. We will do that right after this. Do do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-d-do-d-d-do-d-d-d-doo-d-d-d-d-d. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon and Target Collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon

is almost here, and the lineup is kind of incredible. A few are sure to be fan faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even kaboodles. Which feels perfect, because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure. And Target is bringing fans

together to celebrate that spirit. The first drop is in store May 2nd, online, May 3rd, with the second drop June 6th. Explore now at Target.com. Programming reminders. Yeah. Quick ones. What's coming? Next week, 2006 summer height meter,

which, let's just say it. Quickly take people behind the curtain here. I'm going to be in Sweden next week. I will not be in the country. We thus recorded the 2006 summer height meter. Not a day early, not half a day early. A full week early. Multiple trailers have been released since we were coordinate, which we knew what happened. It is already quite stale. There are illusions on the podcast

like, hey, they're probably going to drop a House of the Dragon season three trailer, aren't they? Hey, we'll probably learn something about X-Men 97 season two, won't we? Guess what all of that happened? Don't worry about it. I think the, I think the order remains the same. Our innocence is preserved in amber. There you go. Was there any kind of, well, Mel, I'll just ask. How well-behaved were you in the hype draft? You know, I'd say that I've mellowed in my old age. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think that I, you know, I, You didn't go after anybody or take it personally? Well, this is a meter.

The meter is calm. In the hype draft, I think I was pretty well behaved this year. On the Big Pick Star Wars draft recently, I was well-behaved for, I'd say, 80% of it. That's not what any of the clips I was served at the end to select. I was not allowed at the end is a real issue. Which is like ludicrous. And then it really- Repeo?

Yeah. Is not a sky. Wait, what? Of course he is. What are we talking about? You tried to draft three-p-o. R2D2, absolutely. Well, I tried to do R2 and 3P of both.

And then I tried to make the case for both. Then I tried to do mid-chlorian as anachid's father. And then I eventually had to take Schme. It was a whole thing. You took Schme? I had waited until the last round. Oh, God. Let me throw this one nugget at you.

How many of our podcasts are we going to spend relitigating? All of them. Did anybody get Cobb Vance? Well, it's funny you should mention that because then Joanna and Damon Lindeloff and I did on our Mando Grosue Primer. mini draft, a duo's dress, Star Wars Duo's Dio and R2 were just waiting for me in the fourth round. But I didn't take them. I think because of PTSD. Yeah, that's why. Or a better drafter got them. I don't know. Something happened. Having to take the combat campaign, which it really

all took R2 and C3PO and then won the vote by. I had won four drafts in a row across podcast. Oh, but you're not keeping track. But I lost a couple in a row and I think it's good. It's good Oh, you think it's good to be humbled? It's good for me to, you know, to stay in tune. Oh, my limitations. You were very cool about me winning that draft. I think you crushed it. You crushed it.

You crushed it. It's easier to lose by like 70%, which is what happened. Then what I have a hard time with is if I lose by like 2% and I then actually, though I did tell you I couldn't sleep for two nights after the draft, which was true. Why? She's doing fine. She's doing good. What were you?

What were you? Because of the three-pio? I took R2 and C3Pio out mother. Because I had taken Hara and Kenan as my love interest, which is a pick. I love that. I love. Like, you were not going to do that. I was not going to do that.

And so they would have made it back to me on the turn. Wait, minute. Well, you took them as your love pick instead of the Duchess Sotene and Obie one? Well, Bobby was off the board because I had taken him and Attican. Got it was all gotten away from me. I got Hana and Leah in the first round and then it was just kind of over from there, honestly. That's pretty good. But I do think Canaan and Hera is dynamite.

It's a great thing. They would have been there for me at the end. Instead, I had to be. pick Cadbane and Comvand. As a romantic couple? By the way, we all want it. We're shipping that. Comvance with anything, honestly.

You know, their first meeting was very flirtatious. There's some crackling energy there. Oh, yeah. It's electric. Who doesn't love a slow saunter? Yes. Out of the distance. A healing fuck in the Bacta tank?

Why not? Oh, yeah. When Cadbane, and I'm going to say this. Is that like fucking in a hot tub? It's bad. It's bad for you. You get a bunch of chlorine up in there. You're definitely going to need antibiotics.

But you're in a back to tank, so it's all healing in real time. I don't know. It's almost like getting stabbed by a lightsaber. It's cauterizing. You know, the damage and the healing are taking place all at once. Smiler's review is getting fucked in the back to tank. Why not? I would try it.

I would try it at least once. I would try it at least once. I would try it at least once. I'm so glad you're on the record. Yeah. That's the pull code. Would try it. Fucking in the back to tank at least once.

If the batch tank is rocking, don't come a knock in. Or sloshin. When Cobbantz-Fant showed up in that episode, episode, not rather, rather when Cadbane showed up in that episode to gunsling with Cobb Vance, when Cadban was walking in live action, I stood up and started screaming. You clapped. You cried. I was like, I, it's Cabin! Again, I'm at that point a 50-year-old man alone in my house screaming. I'm doing great. Yeah. Boy, I wish we could have been on to talk about mall. I loved the pods about mall. I loved mall. It was so good. It was great. It was so great to be

back with him. I loved all the cast of characters around it. I know we're not here to talk about Mall. We're here to talk about Spider-N-War. But I fucking loved Mall because all I want is smaller self-contained stories inside this world. Get the Skywalker's out of there, man. Get these fuckers out of here. Get them out of the done. The Canaan and out of the drafts. The Skywalkers, here's, here's my larger, hit us. The Skywalker's are the baby boomers. It's time to go. Time to die. It's time to go.

It's over. You had your moment. We're done with you. Yeah. Move on. Are you going to Gen X? Are you going to like, is it Gen Alpha's time in Star Wars? Gen X simply does not want to be involved.

Nope. As a proud member of Gen X, I'm shocked. I'm even here. We'll have you back from all season two. Oh, but I would love it, please. We can't wait for that show to go back. I would love nothing more. Do you think that SpyBot lives on in the cloud?

Yes. Yeah. Okay, that was a tragedy. Sam Weber kind of told us as much. Yeah. Does it SpyBot remind you of the assassin who wore the hat that looked like SpyBot? What was that guy's name? Yeah.

Just in Mandur and Gros. Yeah, Mbo. Yeah, Embel. Yeah. His ship looks like his hat. His hat looks like a shield. And I kept thinking that guy was going to show up as SpyBot's like operator or some version of that. You haven't seen Mandalorian and Grogu yet.

I have not seen Mandeloreen and Grogu yet. So you claim. No, and I am being honest. I would tell you. I anticipate not liking it in all honesty. Or I anticipate having... That's what I mean. And you'll have notes.

I anticipate having a struggle with it. But I also don't think it's for me. Here's the thing. The stuff that I don't like about Star Wars, and I love all Star Wars. Boy, do I am I so happy you're still in these stories? Yeah. It's not for me.

But what I love, I love. And when it fails me... And Ball is for you. Mall dynamite. Loved every goddamn minute of it. Yeah. Fantastic. Same.

Same. Can't wait for season two. I love Star Wars animation. What else is coming up? Hight meter is Tuesday. think. And then you will be doing at the end of the week a Lestat primer with some friends, fictional bands. Fictional bands. Yeah. Love this. Rishi Hereway, Jess McKenna are coming to talk about fictional bands. I love this because that's, and I'm going to have a callback for that in a little bit.

Oh, look at you. Are you an interview with the Vampire Watcher? I am not an interview with the Vampire Watcher, but you have gotten me so close so many times that I do feel like there's going to come a moment when I don't have something that's one of my shows. And I'm going to be like, oh, yeah, this. And I'm going to be obsessed. I can, the way you talk about it, I know I'm going to like it. You know, I just got to get into it. I watched the first two seasons for Joe for gift swaps and made her watch Landman and Fire and Ash in Exchange.

Landman. Welcome. Welcome to, I'm out on Avatar, but boy, I'm all in on Landman. Landman is the text of our time. Especially because of season two. Did you watch season two? Are you aware that Billy Bob's character? character fucks an omelet at one point.

Yeah. Are you, and are you aware that? Very point. How literally are we talking about? Sticks a dick in an outlet. Yeah, it's pretty clear. I don't think to completion. No, yeah, and we don't watch him.

For pleasure? Yeah. No, kind of to make a point. To make a point. So like it's done on someone. Yeah. Like I put my dick in your omelet. It was his omelet.

It was his omelet. Landman. To even try and explain it, you're like, wow, they really did it. They really did a thing. And I would say if Landman season three doesn't feature Billy Bob in the car rolling calls more. I'll be furious. And they all have to be next times.

Because that's what 80% of season is. Did we go to Michaels this season? Drunkenly go to Michaels, which is my favorite part, as you know, of season one when Allie Larder got drunk on margaritas and went to Michael. No, yeah. They didn't. Product placement for Michaels. No, they didn't.

But where did they go? They did go someplace to do something with the old people again. Was it? Because strip club was also season one. Yeah, they love the old people's storyline in Landman. I remember. is so nuts. A lot of the old person focus of land man, though,

it shifted not only to the home front. Yeah, yeah. But to the pool in the backyard. Yes, Sam Elliott getting like aqua therapy. Cradled. Yes, cradled by a woman in the pool. Who Billy Bob had found. I regret to him for you, my back in.

You're back in. Welcome. At the strip club and said, how does the mustache look in the pool? Oh, my God, resplendent. And he spends most of the season watching the sunset. The worst mistake they made it justified is when St. Stam Elliott showed up without the mustache. And you're like, what's the point?

I quite agree. You can't shave the mustache. You can't. So you're going to do the Lestat pad. Then we're going to have a disclosure day pod. And then it's just basically House of the Dragon Time after that. We'll have a couple other things. Plus Lestat.

Plus, we're not. We're not far away from Hot D season three. You excited? Not really. Oh boy. That's what we're hearing. That's the word on the street. I'm not.

All right. Did the trailer today? Did you watch the trailer today? I did not. Okay. I'm wondering if there will be an uptick and hype from today's trailer. Did Night of the Seven Kingdoms make you more hype or less hype? Less hype because I enjoyed it so much for the simplicity of its storytelling.

That again, kind of like what I'm talking about with Star Wars inside of, and I'm not a Game of Thrones reader, to be clear. So I exclusively understand it through the shows. And Night of the Seven Kingdoms just crushed it. And then I went and listened to the audiobook of all of the novellas, which were dynamite. and maybe so excited for the rest of it. House of the Dragon is so sprawling and so big,

and it just hasn't hooked me in the same way. I'll watch it. I'll get around to watching it, but I will not be like, oh, it's on, good, boom, every Sunday night or whatever, you know, like I don't think it's going to be dominant. Damn it, we'll see. I feel the same about Lord of the Rings.

Rings of Power. Rings of Power. Both of them have just lost me enough that it isn't, week to week I'm kept up. In other words, you know, I'll do it. But they're not like, oh, I got to go. We have to start potting about Lamanns so that Manzukas keeps listening to us all. You're not going to do us at all.

By the way, I still listen. I'm listening to you guys talk about. You guys are spoiling shows that I'm then watching weeks later, but I don't care. I love it. I also don't care about spoilers. Yeah. I mean, it must be hard in your, you're an actor. Yeah, what's the point?

You're in the industry. Yeah, it's, what do we, we're allowed to hear, part of the reason I used to like watching stuff was because I would hear people describe it or I would read a review that described it or whatever. Like, I should be allowed to know what happens in these things. I just don't understand, like, for those of us who love to, like, read the book and then watch a thing that's based on the book, that's essentially, it's, but, like, it doesn't change it for me.

Yeah. Oh, no, I mean, me neither. I think a lot of listeners feel differently about it. They do. Oh, yeah. Baby. Spoiler warning? Spoiler warning for today.

all of Spider-Noir season one. Because this dropped as a binge on MGM and then Amazon so this is on Prime video on Amazon the whole first season is up.

M-DM a real platform that exists. MGM Plus? Yeah. MGM Plus. I've got it. Don't worry. Two days before. Yeah,

don't worry. I've got it for S-A-S-Rogue heroes. One of my all-time favorite Stephen Knight shows. You guys in CR. I love Rogue Heroes. I know that about all three of I have not seen the show.

Jack O'clock. I have not seen the show. It's great. Oh, He was in the binge-miss movie that I watched. Yes, he did watch that. Tomlinkarnie, your guy. That's right.

It's a good group. It's really good. Yeah, it's a great cast. And the show is a blast. Maybe there will be Roque Hero spoilers today. There will definitely be Spider-Noar spoilers because the entire season is fair game for our discussion today. Later today, we're going to talk about Freer-in. Yeah.

So, like, I think that that, because we have not finished, the spoilers will be a little lighter there. Oh, sure. There's would be more, like, premise. Here's what I'll say. And this is just true of anime. Yeah. They tell you the whole thing in the opening song. Opening credit song is always like, here's the story we're about to tell you it's sad.

That opening credit song is. Always. And every season it changes. Incredible. It's great. Incredible. So we're going to talk about all of that today. What else might be spoiled? What do you think?

Oh, I suspect we'll talk about the Spider-Verse movies. Yes. So those will, I'm sure. All of Spider-Man. Any Spider-Man. Some Comics canon. Comics canon, although I did, I looked into Spider-Man or Spider-No-Noar comics. There weren't a ton, and I didn't dig too deep.

Me neither. So, no Spider-Noir comics. Yeah. You don't have to worry about any comics can and being spoiled. Sadly, I would have loved something that had a heavier comics lift just to talk comics. But I didn't find much that was super compelling. Okay, let's get to it. Let's swing into Spider-Noir season one.

What is your history with this character? Jason, let's start with you. So it is simply from the Spider-Verse movies. Truly, this was my introduction, as I suspect it was for all of us, you know, or for most people. And I loved it. Loved the, what a great character establishment in that first movie to all of the characters, to be introduced to that group of characters. And then have one of them be not just a noir, black and white, all the archetypes and tropes of a noir story, but have it be voiced by Nick Cage, who is maybe for me pound for pound one of the most interesting, most bizarre, most captivating actors that we have.

You know, I do a podcast called How Did This Get Made? And for 15 years, we've been covering terrible movies that are so bad you have to watch them. And when I tell you, we've done probably 20 Nicholas Cage movies, it's nuts. There was that run of time where he was trying to pay off his massive death where he did like five VOD movies a year. And we covered a lot of them, season of the witch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Wicker Man, although that's not exactly just for money. But, you know, there's a ton of stuff.

There's a ton you've never heard of that Nick Cage did. Speaking of, can I tell my origin story with Jason? Of course. Oh, yes. We've never potted before. That's right. It's the first time. The three of us have potted before.

I was working at Vanity Fair and I got a pitch to talk to Jason Van Zuckus, who was one of my favorite podcasters because I was an absolute, how did this get made obsessive? And but like you're trying to be a professional journalist, right? so Jason gets on the line and I'm just interviewing him about the project that he was working on and I didn't say anything about being a fan of yours because I was trying to be like cool and professional. Meanwhile, I'm like internally freaking out. And then right towards the end, Jason's like, I just want to let you know, Joanne and I listen to your podcast.

And I was like, I listened to your podcast. And he was like too late. I said it first. There you go. Now it just sounds like you're saying it as I said it. And I was like, God damn it. Anyway, so that's the first time I talked to. And that was your, the first time I think I heard you.

was the Dave Chen cast of Kings podcast that I listened to all the time during that era. Many years ago. Oh yeah. Many years ago.

Yeah, yeah. And then I think, and then we met at ATX festival. Because I was monitoring that league, the league panel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're like,

can I hug you? Oh, anyway. Beautiful. Really great. Really. And here you are podcasting together.

It only took. About Spider-N-Wire. Yes. It only took another 12 years probably to get us here. Thanks, Nick Cage. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Nicholas Cage.

Yeah. What can't that man do? I mean, quite a bit, actually. And that might go up for that. And I think we found some of the limitations, maybe. Yeah, we might have. Do you feel like in the scene inside of the show, when he is in the movie theater,

eating a hot dog, watching James Cagney, do you, and like just muttering the lines back, which we later find out is how he learned how to be human again after being bitten by Man Spider or whatever it was? Yep. Do you feel like that's a documentary footage of Nick Cage at the movie? It's a tiring possible. I'm certain he made them do the whole,

made him make sure we're watching this scene. Yeah. He is so, there's a great, it might be vanity fair, it might be one of the magazines that does the, you know, an actor breaks down their roles. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And he did one, this is some years ago, but, and he's going through. And what's wonderful about Nicholas Cage is like he's such a chaotic and crazy and unpredictable actor in all of the best ways and frankly all of the worst ways.

Yeah. But to hear him talk about his process for so many of these bananas characters, you are like, oh, there is not just a method to his madness, but there is madness to his method. Yeah. You know, like it is fascinating to watch. I very much think people should watch it just to get insights into the fact that he's talking about like, you know, whatever movie crazy dumb, you know, gone in 60 seconds or con air. But he's like talking about Brecht. A couple classics. But even like it could happen to you.

And he's like, well, what was the quote he had that was making its way around about this? I think it was from the Esquire feature. And he was like 70, it's 70% Humphrey Bogart, 30% Bugs Bunny. Yes, that's great. I believe what's dead. Oh, it's in there. Absolutely. Not to say like, cite multiple interviews I did when I worked at VF.

But one time I did interview Nicholas Cage about some terrible VOD movie that he made that no one saw. And I was asked, because I'm me, I was asking him about comic books. But I think he thought because he was talking to someone at Vanity Fair that I was, like, making fun of him for comic books, which, of course, I would never. I was genuinely curious to talk to him about comic books. And he's like, I'm not just sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies and my glass of milk reading comic books all the time. And I was just like, that sounds great. I was like, that's so specific. So you certainly are.

Like, you definitely are. But also, that was not an insult to ask you about comic books. You named your son, Callel. Like, I know this about you, and I think it's cool and weird. But, like, yeah, he was like, I'm not sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies. And I was like, well, we should all be sitting here with our tray of lemon cookies right now. I agree. So he's a lemon cookies guy.

Sanzas is a lemon cakes girl. It's amazing how much lemon-based, zesty, baked goods come up here on this podcast. Two? Twice. Can you think of any others? We'll put one in here. We'll think of one. By the end of the day.

The comedy rule of three. Yes. Yeah. Joe, same for you. Spider-verse. Any other history with Spider-N-N-War as a character? Spider-Verse movies, yeah, same. And I think we all, like, it was such a, I mean, the Spider-Verse films in general, obviously just wonderful. We all, we adore the two that we've gotten so far, can't wait for the third. I think that even by the standard of loving the first movie, Spider-D-War, like, really popped for people. Oh, I feel like, yeah, especially, I mean, it's so fun to play with those tropes. It's so fun to be inside of, when he's not in, like, in the, we'll talk about it in this show, but especially, especially. in that movie, in those two movies, it's a blast to have like a hard-boiled, you know,

a detective roaming around. And, and he's perfect for it. Yes. And the idea in the Spider-Verse films of like put this mashup of fully realized, utterly specific, unapologetic comics energy where you get this like tapestry of all these different figures who are there to be for 30 seconds, 75 seconds, whatever it is, the most diluted, distilled version of that comics character. And then it's like, well, that was super fun. What will it be like over eight episodes of the standalone series built around this character? Right?

That's the question. So I remember when this was announced, I was like very hyped, genuinely very hyped. A lot of questions, which I think was where we all were for a little while. Opening snapshot overall take here, how did you actually find season one of Spider-N-Moor? Boy. So, speaking to Bugs Bunny, I found it, it was, it's a tough one for me.

because there's a lot of stuff that I really liked and really enjoyed. For me, I will say it's a little bit of, there is simultaneously somehow I made a note in here too much going on and also not enough for me to do eight one-hour episodes. You know what I mean? I think it's sort of been a great movie. It should have been a movie and or a series of episodes that added up to movie lengths. You know what I mean?

Like it should have been shorter and told a one, thrust of a story. There was too much going on, too many things, and it was also not enough of an understanding of what story I was being told. So I was getting lost. And then I didn't get back into it and enjoy it. And there was, I think, great set pieces.

There was a lot of incredibly fun stuff, great performances. I really enjoyed it, but it wore out its welcome a little bit. And I'd say the second half, I found myself checking my phone a little bit or not as invested, I'll say. And I watched it, I should say, as a binge.

I watched it all at once within 48 hours. Yeah. You know, I watched the whole thing. I did the same and I feel like it was a mistake. Like, perhaps the back half wouldn't have felt so tedious to me to a certain degree if it had felt fresher and I wasn't like four hours into my experience already. I think the cast is incredible. Yeah.

Like to get Brennan Gleason here just like doubling it up, like incredible. I was, I was, spoilers, right? I was excited and then sad because I was like, Lucas Haas finally gets to do something so cool. And then he was gone. Winston. Jack Houston is addicted to us not seeing his beautiful face all the time,

boardwalk empire. That surprised me. I know, I know. A very similar kind of a role. Very similar, yeah. Or an external for the role. Leisure and Lee has been, like, loved her in Babylon, loved her in sinners.

Like, she's on a real role in terms of stuff. So like, I get, like, Amy Aquino here, like, absolute stage legend here for an episode or two to play The Doctor. So, like, just an incredible. Lemorn Morris. I mean, like, there's like, Lamorne is like, the show for me, honestly at the end of the end. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the show. I kind of am more curious about it, you know?

Yeah. Lamor, like, however tired I got at the end, I was always invested in what LeMorn's character, like, what Joe Robbie Robertson was doing. And also Janet Ruiz. Yeah. Yeah. And Janet was terrific. Robbie and Janet, like, kind of wore the show for me. Nick Cage is so fun.

And then I feel like towards the back half or I was just a little tired. It felt like any leash came off of him. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And I feel like he needs that leash on him in order for us to enjoy. Or he does it. Because I will say if he, without those moments of true bananas Nick Cage, I think I might have liked it even less. No, no, no.

I mean, I think the physical, like, when he's like doing his spider shit. Incredible. When he's doing his spider shit. I loved that. Oh, my God. It feels, that's, you know what? And I wonder what you guys think about this. I kept being like, ooh, especially in those moments or in the moment where he, in the

flashback when he's like finds out the webbing is coming from his body and all the body horror stuff. I was like, oh, I wish this. I wish they'd given Sam Ramey this. I wish Sam Ramey had been in charge of this property and this Spider-Man because, boy, would that be interesting? because I think Ramey especially too loves this era of filmmaking, loves this is, this is Sam Ramey, like when he's with the Cohen Brothers era Sam Ramey.

You know what I mean? Yeah. There's a lot of this movie that has like Miller's Crossing mapped onto it. You know where Brendan Gleason is the Albert Finney character and Cage is the Gabriel Byrne character. Well, he did Darkman, which is like essentially this. Perfect. Right. Exactly.

And that I was like, ooh, I would love a Sam Ramey noir working with Nick Cage. That would be very interesting to me Because that, I think, would have made it feel a little bit More layered or deeper or something A little bit, it felt broad strokes at times. Like just noir broad strokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had a lot of fun with it.

I watched it over a couple days, so I was able to space out the episodes a little bit, which I think maybe helped me avoid the feeling at the very end. Like, I was like, boy, I have to, like, get through this. Because actually, I think the back half of the season, I actually enjoyed more than the front of the season. Like, I think once we got, got some of the flashback clarity.

And then mostly when, because I loved Robbie and Janet so much, I think mostly when the three of them all got to really interact in the primary story together, that was just like such a treat and such a thrill. And particularly, like, when Nick Cage just went nuts in episode seven and eight, that was when I was having the best time and laughing the most. And I was like in the beginning of the season, having a good time and enjoying it, but not laughing at the oddity and specificity of the performance as much as I had anticipated. And so when some more of those like deliberate affectations started to surface, I was just like,

I feel like I am watching the show that I thought I was going to be watching the whole time. So I really enjoyed it. I had a good time. I think what you guys said about what you were saying about just the pace and the flow over the season. And like that's, I agree, Jason, with the observation that simultaneously there was like a lot going on in terms of moving pieces and parts. but then you have a little bit of those, like, ubiquity of all of the fights are going to end up being on like a street, you know, in the old-timey city and like just the, I think the silver main part of it was a touch less interesting to me than some of the other strands of the story. So when it all kind of like oriented around that at the end, even though I liked those episodes quite a bit, it felt a little small. I think Smith, it also was just the kind of 2026, we are all watching comic book adaptations for the millionth time and like the, the,

you know, you are like, okay, we're, we've been talking about Tombstone coming in a movie this summer and here's Tombstone, Sam Man again, etc. But that's just part of it. I didn't mind how small. Like, I kind of liked it. It felt small and, like, contained and, like, felt like it was shot on a studio back lot. Like, I kind of liked, to your point about Mall, like, I just kind of liked that we were in this, like, very little world in this one mayoral race and this one, you know, like, all this sort of stuff is contained. I think what was really tough for me in the back, I think here's what it was. Nick Cage and the Leachoff, as you point out, is like always an exciting time. This guy they got with love and respect to play Megawatt was so aggravating to me.

But why? Did you feel like he made big choices that he couldn't be back up? That I felt like you could not put both of those energies in the same stretch of episodes and for me to like vibe with it. Or everybody needs to do that. Or everybody else needs to match. them because they are very vividly in comic book. You know, they are in, you know, not just comic book, but also the ratat-tat-tat.

Yeah, yeah. 30s, 40s, noir. Yeah. I had a hard time with him in his first couple episodes when he started to, like, be more fully incorporated into the main plot. I was like, oh, we're sticking with this guy. But I kind of loved it by the end, actually, because I don't know, there was just something so amusing about him, like, the Good Night Sweet Prince Hamlet quote at the end.

He was hysterical. He was everywhere. Yeah. Fumbling Shakespeare, the whole, maybe that's what bothered me. He was misquoting Shakespeare and it was bothering me. But it's like amusing because he's a dipshit who thinks he's like, you know, finally got the literal lights all around to him.

I thought it was amusing. And I like that he actually said to the other, to like, to Flint, why are we listening to this guy? Yeah. Which felt like actually a necessary story beat for one of the guys with powers to say. Like, why? I love Jack Houston. But tracking Flint's.

like loyalty motif versus the love story with this is what I mean by like there's so much going on. Yeah, yeah. But I'm not really invested in any of it. Right. Nor do I understand. Nor am I clear who what they want me. What do they want me to feel?

Like who do they want me? Are we supposed to root for cat and Flint or cat and Ben or cat and Silvermane or cat on her own or what, you know, like, like, and I was like, and I kept being like, is. Is this cat going to be, is this cat Hardy going to be Felicia Hardy? Is this person going to be black cat? Is that what they're setting up here? I'm not sure. Like there's a lot that I was like bringing comics lore to it and trying to figure out,

oh, are they trying to assemble the Sinister Six with all these guys? Okay, no, not really. And then all the flashbacks for me were hurting, not helping. Same. In a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. especially because it just became, putting them all together as if they fought at the same time in the same war, really put into stark contrast just how much the age difference is between these guys.

You know, I mean, like Jack Houston and that crew are however old they are, mid to late 30s. Yeah. And Cage is like mid-60s. He's like 62. So his like sort of floppy, forelock, flashbag week wasn't doing all the work. Oh, you think that was a wig? Yeah, you think so? Oh, no, that's interesting.

I hadn't thought of that. Had you considered it? Perhaps that's not a fair life. Oh, okay. So that's a wig. Huh. Interesting. You think Cage is wigging it up on this? That's interesting.

Every day of his life, perhaps. Every time it leaves the house. The wings were nuts. Particularly so in the, what did they call it? The true hue, true hue color. Oh. Unbelievable in the true hue color. That's a good question.

So much better in black and white. Did you guys watch blank and white or color? Yes. I watched black and white and then Mal and I talked about it. I went back in and watched the last episode a little bit of it in color just to like see what it looked like. I did the reverse. I watched a little bit of the first episode in color. Okay.

Just because that's what it booted up initially. And while I was trying to figure out how to. You're like, dear God, make it stop. How to watch it in black and white. So I watched probably the first 10 minutes in color. And went to black and white and was glad I did because I felt like black and white really covered for a lot of stuff that I think I would have been even more. aggravated by? Like the design on the on the henches,

you know, like your tombstones, your megawatts, looked so good in black and white. I thought they looked incredible. I think that's part of why I liked the show so much, is the black and white was just such a specific and immersive, like visual choice. And it obviously helps heighten not only the comic book palette, like this book has been drawn in the specific way

with this artist's intention, but also obviously the like, this is a 30s noir story, this is a crime story, this is a gritty pop your collar on your trench coat and we're going to go solve a crime. Into your point, Joe, like this neighborhood that feels like it has a sense of place and this is the club we go to. I thought that the black and white really heightened all of that effectively. And like even stuff like, you know, he's got the darker webs, the way that that that looked in the black white, the way that the war goggles.

The goggles was such a good effect in black and white. Like the real simple stuff like I thought played great in black and white. Awesome. And helped, I guess, you know, plaster over some of the stuff that I think would have been just not as good or a little bit feeling like herky jerky. I wish they hadn't released it in color at all. Well, why do you think, that's what I was just going to ask is like, why do you think they did give people the choice? They just think people weren't going to want to watch a black and white show. I think there's a generational cutoff that does not watch black and white movies.

They won't because they didn't ever. And so those movies are old, you know, or. whatever, like old, old, not like, you know, sort of old. Like, imagine you're born in the year 2000, like a movie from the 40s, like, to watch his girl Friday or to watch Maltese Falcon or something is a crazy. I mean, these are the best movies ever made, but like a crazy thing to a kid. So I think they want those kids watching this thing. So they got to put it in color, which is preposterous.

It's a bummer. Like, it is against the entire ethos of the character. Yeah, and I think especially because the show is really really. trying to say this is going to be its own thing. This like actually isn't this like wouldn't belong in the MCU, right? And we're not shying away from that. We're actually trying to like amplify and heighten that so that feels like its own thing and its own

distinct flavor and energy. Lean into that. Just say to people if you want to watch it, you got to watch it in black and white. That's how it's supposed to look. It looks amazing. The color, I I watched the, I did the same. I did the end of the season and the color and the true hue at the end. And it was just, it was like not only not as

gripping. It like looked kind of bad. I'm bad. I assume, yeah. It looked like way cheaper. Yeah. Very strange. Yeah. Yeah.

And it would get it, you know the, the, and it's, I don't think it's successful as a movie necessarily, but Sin City to me was the movie that I kept thinking of. Both the comics and then the movie adaptation because of that, playing with the black and white like that with this kind of noiry storyline. I really, I was like, ooh, I wish this had a little bit more of the grittiness that Sin City had. City just had, like, I just wish there had been more, it felt, it felt very clean. Oh, yeah. You know, in a way that I was like, oh, where's the grime?

Where's the grit? I wanted a little bit more of that. Do you think on the grime grip front that you could get a syringe to go right through the soft spot of somebody's eye. I thought that was, I loved that moment. And I wanted more, that's a great example of a beat that I wanted more. And I loved specifically that Robbie did it. Yes.

That it wasn't during a fight that Ben thought to do it. I loved that consistently throughout Ben is bad at being Spider-Man. And that was satisfied, I think, it was a smart move. And I love, like, even, so when you're watching his spider fight and fumble around or whatever, that's its own, you know, and there's all this meta-commentary of like, does he still have it? He's still got it. Like, all this sort of like that. But when you're watching Nick Cage fight, I was like, I like how believably, like, sort of shambling and effortful it was for him. Like, I really liked that.

Hit the sweet spot of enhancing where this character is. the fact that he's been struggling with who he wants to be, the loss, the pain, the age, all of it, the, like, the fact that he's embracing, you know, inverting and embracing with no power comes no responsibility. That's the thing he's championing. Without running a foul, it never tipped into De Niro and the Irishman.

Oh, brother. This just actually doesn't look like a thing to me. Oh, boy. No, I agree. I agree. It was great. On the Nick Cage from, what else do we want to say about Nick Cage's,

Ben Riley, the spider. I want to say this. One of my favorite things that happened throughout, like, and I love this in any sort of private eye show. This is like a classic Veronica Marr's setup is I have to weasel my way into something, so I'm just going to like pretend to be this, that, or the other thing. Yes.

I just thought all of those sequences were really fun. And then he, and that's so funny, you said Veronica Morris, because I wrote it in my, as a Gen X, I wrote it in mine is, is this Nicholas Cage's Fletch? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was like, every time he has to get into a knock on a door or do something, he's not doing it inexplicably. He could be Ben Riley for all these interactions. These people don't matter to the story.

But he's still like, I gotta get into your apartment. I guess I'm the plumber. And I was like, this is, and you know that this is Nick Cage showing up and being like, I'm doing this one like this. There's a great story about him getting cast in Green Hornet, the Seth Rogen Green Hornet movie, and insist to play the villain that eventually Christoph Waltz. place. But Nick Cage said, I will only do it if I can do it with dreadlocks and a Jamaican accent. And Robert Pattinson is like, I'm going to bring this energy to a lot of things

that I do. He's like, I saw what Gary Oldman did in true romance and that's got to be me. I think Pattinson is cribbing off Gary Oldman and Nick Cage 100%. Absolutely. I mean, what a beautiful, what a beautiful stew. What a Venn diagram of madness. I love it. The accent, like the, whatever our Pat's is doing, whatever accent, whatever new voice he's doing in every project is so exciting. Specifically, he shows up, I forget which one it is, but he shows up and he does the Betty Davis, what a dump. And it made me laugh so hard. And I was like, I feel like Nick Cage is just like, I'm going to cite this, I'm going to do this

1949 Betty Davis movie line right now. And I was just like, you know, he does it throughout. He references stuff throughout when he says, when he references, wait, what movie does he reference it and say it's still in the, it's still playing right now? Maltese Falcon. I can't remember what movie he says. It's actually in theaters right now. And I was like, he is just, it's that improv rule of play to the height of your intelligence.

Everything Nick Cage knows, Ben Riley knows. He has complete film history. All the Turner Classic movies have to offer. Do you think they should give Nick Cage his own TCM show? One million percent. I would watch that. I mean, that's the move. Like, I want Nick Cage to have a movie.

podcast, a movie show, anything where he curates. And all I want is for Ben Mancoe is to try and corral Nick Cage. That's what I was going to say. It's got to be Ben and Nick together. Exactly. Absolutely. And Ben just like sweating and like pulling his collar open as he's trying to wrangling. As they're trying to introduce Asphalt Jungle. It's like when I think what was the name of the movie he did with Petter Pascal? The like. Yes. Not dream scenario. No. A bearable way to massive talent. Yeah. A bearable way to massive talent.

When they're talking about the cabinet of Dr. Caligari, he's just like monologue. I'm like, this is just Nick Cage talking about a movie that he loves. Oh, I love it. You know? And it's just, I would watch that Turner Classic movie show every day. Yeah.

Oh, a million percent. That would be a blast because he is so smart and so interested and interesting that all I want to do is watch Nick Cage be curious about a thing and then execute on it. And that's what this, at the best, that's what this has all over it. is when he's doing Nick Cage stuff, when they let him lose, it's electric. And it's nonsense a lot of the times.

The crazy. Oh, the, I'm a spider like leg thing. Crickety crackety, crickety, crickety, crackety. Yeah. Was every, worked for me every single time. And I was like, oh, I wish there was 30% more weird David Lynchy stuff going on. Like I kept being like, oh, I wish, I wish Werner Herzog or Lars von Treer, direct. to this. I wish this was weirder

is what I kept wanting. I kept wanting it to be actually as weird as Nicholas Cage rather than Nicholas Cage seeming like the weird thing. The weird thing in this slick noir pastiche. That's why I wound up talking myself into more megawatts actually. Yeah. So that everyone is

in the right movie. If everyone is Mega watt, maybe. But yeah, when he's like, you know, getting drunk, getting plastered at the bar and episode seven. The bar fight was incredible sequence. He's describing their appendages are rather like straws. Veritable party whistles. You just like, this is cocaine. This is amazing. The director of the last two

episodes, Greg Yatainis, who did some House of the Dragon and presumed innocent. And I really liked that he brought a lot, he did a lot of like comic book painting of the action. And then that that bar fight is, for a lot of it, a oner. And it's like a lot of

oners. I'm like, all right, we get it. But I thought that one was really good. I thought it was really good. I agree. And not all the fight choreography worked for me, but this one did. And especially because it had the, it's just the entrance. The entrance of him being in the bar, and these guys come in, they pop, blah, blah, blah. And then him just following him out. Yeah. And then he puts the thing on. Then he walks back in. It's clearly him still. It's obvious to everybody that this is the guy who was just in it. And then the fight unfold. And that just that, just that little setup of him being like knowing he's got to put the mask

on but he's got to drunk that was dynamite and all Nick Cage being drunk acting I'll watch forever or being on drugs acting I'll watch forever oh Mandy every time and the of the like he has to enter a place and do something very audacious kind of for no reason

I think my favorite example of that was because he knows he needs to get into his own apartment to get his suitcase so he's like he grabs the mop and he does in an extra degree but like he does have to pretend he's there with maintenance Okay. When Dr. Faber catches him looking through the files in her office, and so he has to pretend he's a patient. Now, he does need a cover story for why he is behind her desk in the office. But the voice. Yeah. The specific story. The number of times he's like, floor two, down on floor

two, I got to make sure a Google map it for me. Like, it was just dialed up to a thousand. It's so crazy. And what's so weird about it is that's Nick Cage. Humphrey Bogart would never do this. James Cagney would never do this. This is Bugs Bunny. This is the Bugs Bunny. You're right. But I mean, I'm hopping head or whatever, but Limore Morris who again, like, every single second

so good, when he gets to do not just like a Nick Cage impression, but a Jimmy Cagney as Nick Cage impression, so funny. Like, I hope he had the best time of his life doing that. Some of my favorite scenes were Nick Cage and the little

kid Frankie. Oh, Frankie. Frankie is executing like straight up little rascals energy throughout. And I was like, give me more of this. Give me more of the like little kid street urchin. Yeah, that was killing me. Frankie and I would also watch a Frankie Janet spin off just with their lessons. Just some tutoring. Incredible.

Let's talk more about Janet and let's talk more about Robbie and Frankie. Like the supporting characters, supporting heroes because we're going to hit villains separately. Yeah. This was definitely the highlight of the show. I think we all agree. great if the office with them was the hub, was the center of the story. That's my hope for season two, like, because we end with Riley and Ruiz's investigations. I'm like, you know, and I'm like, okay, Robbie's got a paper to run, and that's a, that's a large job.

So I hope his paper goes well. Not in today's world. But I was like, I just want the three. I was thinking a lot about, I've been bringing up Perry Mason a lot of podcasts for some reasons. But Perry Mason, it's Perry Mason, Della Street, his Girl Friday, essentially, and then Paul Drake. his investigator. And so three of them. And I was just like, that's the setup here.

It's just like, you've got your investigative journalist and you've got your his girl Friday who also like knows how to sashay into a police station and get everyone to do what she wants to do. And like I just, I love the three of them. And don't. And if you're going to do it this way, if you want one hour episodes or whatever and you want eight of them, don't make it one storyline. Case of the week. Make it either case of the week or every two episodes is a case.

Yeah. You know, so you have. The silver main stuff, even though I love all those performers. That was where I started to feel. Silver Main isn't, oh, you know what it is? And I wrote this down too. It is, I had similar problems with this that I had with Daredevil, which was, what is the story we're telling?

You're like, is it these small pieces or is it this big piece? It felt, again, both too much and not enough for me to understand what the story was, how to receive it in terms of like. For Joe, the Daredevil story was Bullseye Feeds a Cat. And it worked. Yeah. It's very important to me. But this is the problem with the eight to ten episodes seasons.

because, you know, we've been rewatching Buffy, or if you talk about Veronica Mars. Love Buffy. Both of those shows have mastered in the 22, 24 episode season, your case of the week for Veronica Mars or your monster of the week for Buffy, but then you've got an overarching big, bad storyline that is just seeded throughout, exactly, you know, and then or like, you know, be your Casablanca's or like whatever is happening in the background. He's just sort of like dropped here, dropped there. You would get Silverman like seeded throughout, but he wouldn't need to like spend so much time

with him in every episode. Now listen, I could listen to Brendan Gleason, who has the best accident in the world. And I am obsessed with the fact that Donald Gleason sounds exactly like him, you know, despite not coming from a working class background at all. I just think they sound delightful, but it was the balance was off. Yeah. Way off. The fighting is the point. It's what gives the whiskey its taste, though.

Yeah. All-time line. It was a really good line. He had great stuff. It just was, he wasn't a compelling enough story to maintain a singular villain for. eight one hour episodes, who didn't himself have a story of his own. Yeah. And we care about...

You know, even the kingpin has a more substantial storyline. Vanessa. Vanessa. Especially because of the grip on power in the city, that is a really interesting comp because, like, I, of course, cared about... The mayoral race. You were thinking about Spencer Pratt. I cared of his own.

Unfortunately, we all are right now. I was, you know, of course, invested in how Ben was going to navigate Silverman and how Cat was going to nap. But I didn't give a shit about the mayoral. I'm not tracking it at all. I don't even know who he's running against. Yeah, I mean, right. And there are the illusions at me.

He's named at the end. I think so, but I think that's it. That actor, Michael Kostroff, who's from the wire, like, I love him. And I thought he did a great job with his, like, wire room glasses and his best and is like, I'm your mayor. Like, I loved all that. But, yeah, the whole story is. You want booze?

It's not, it's not relevant to us enjoying this at all. And, in fact, could all go away. And the streamlined version of this street level. Spider-Man story would be so much more satisfying. Spider-Man shouldn't be concerned with the mayoral race in a lot of instances. For the most part. I mean, truly. What I will say, though, is that I was worried because, you know, when we meet Ben Riley

and we find out about Welcome to the Dead Wives Club, Ruby. Yes. And he has, like, hung up the mask. He's not doing it anymore. I was worried about the whole, like, Surf Dracula question, right? You know about the Surf Dracula thing, right? which is that, like, tweet of someone wrote about how, like, you make a show called Surf Dracula and then you spend, like,

10 episodes before we finally get to see Dracula surfing. And it's like, I was like, how long are we have to wait to see him? Spider-Man. And we did not have to wait that long. And for that, I was really grateful. But, like, because he's hung up the mask, we don't get a lot of those, like, this is the foe I'm fighting this week. You know what I mean?

Because he's not in that mode. But in season two, we could, he could. It suffers a little bit from, there's like a rule in improv, which is we're improvising a scene together. So don't play someone who doesn't want to be here. Don't be. It's just a surefire way to have a hard scene. If the person's like, I got to go actually.

Or I don't want to be on this date. Or, you know what I mean? Whatever it is. Want to be there. Choose to be there. And part of it is he doesn't want to be Spider-Man. And all we want is for him to be Spider-Man. And so it's a bit of a tough lift

for him to spend the whole season trying to get rid of this in a way that I'm like, no, I want you to want this. I understand what's happened, but we haven't been privy to the story of Ruby and we don't know his origin story really except for the broad strokes, which I'm fine with. But I want him to want to be Spider-Man because I want to feel as though that case of the week that, oh, that person's being robbed because Spider-Man is street-level, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, that's his deal. Yeah.

It's not big, gigantic concerns. It is small neighborhood concerns. And that's what I love about also a noir, a detective. That is local. It is street level, you know, and that's great. The thing about his struggle with the spider identity and the Ruby remorse and all of that that I actually that I quite liked over the course of the season and when it kind of like culminated, it brings us back to Janet and Robbie in those relationships because like that scene on the bench between. Ben and Robbie, like, when he, when Ben is like, you know, I used to like it because like it felt

good. And now it doesn't. That was really interesting. And I thought that felt like a very, you know, kind of relatable and human note, have all of us been bitten by Man Spider while rescuing POWs and then became. You haven't? Peter. I'm no longer Peter.

I'm Ben Riley. I haven't had the opportunity yet to be bit. Ben Riley is the name of the Spider-Man clone in the comics, which I was like, oh, are they trying to be that? at Ben Raleigh, but no, they're just... No, here it's like a new, I've taken on a new idea. The wig is not blonde. I did love, I will say, and I know we're jumping around,

and I apologize, I'm part of the problem in that. But I loved the moment where... So, so much is going on that I feel like the story that I really enjoyed the most, and I know I said I didn't like the flashbacks, which I didn't like, but the moment where you realize Nicholas Cage is just out of frame of the picture of all of them taken in the war. All of these guys who have superpowers were captured and liberated. And we find out, oh, Nicholas Cage was right there just off to the side.

That I thought was a great moment in a way that I was like, I wish that I guess more of his struggle had been this PTSD. All of his powers are related to the war. Their powers are related to the war. The war is not over. They've brought the war home. What is that? You know, like, how does that impact? influence whether or not he wants to be Spider-Man because part of being Spider-Man is always

connecting to this central trauma of what is new modern monstrous warfare, you know? That was interesting to me, less so than even Silver Main or other things. But it was, again, so mushy with all the other stuff. Yeah. I think, too, because the gang of villains, you know, Silverman's henches, they're, like, one of the things we learn in the season is that they're on this clock, right? So their power is manifested much later. This is a, that recently have come to the fore for them, and that means they're going to die.

And that's why they need the antidote that Faber tries to make from his liver. Yeah. Is this where the liver is, by the way? Because he was bleeding from like, I don't think, I don't think that's where the liver is. But I don't know. Maybe that's how you access it if you're an evil scientist. I'm not an internal. I'm not internist.

In the 66 universe, that's where everybody's liver is. Is that what this one is? I can't remember what number universe is. Don't worry about it. Everybody's organs are all jumping. It's entirely, I mean, certainly the man spider. I mean, it's God. It's everywhere.

But yeah, and so the fact that this thing that he like has come to really resent, you know, he has these powers, but they weren't enough to save his love. And so he doesn't want to use them at all. He doesn't want to help people anymore. It just brings them to spare. That's the thing that's going to maybe spare these other guys from their feet. Those are really thematically rich strands of the story that I agree. I wish we had spent like a little bit more time there.

The thing about the flashback that I think is just difficult in 20, In the 26, like modern superhero TV movie life to not do when you're watching it, it's like, you can't, I don't know. I'm like, you can't not think about like Bucky and Hydra. Just the similarities of the like, hmm, you were a P-O-W. We took you. We experimented on you. We turned you into this thing.

Yeah. And so then, like, I don't know. I think most of the show felt so completely and utterly unique that the parts on the origin story beat that feel a little bit more reminiscent of another thing. I wrote in my notes like three episodes in and I was like, they're not doing an origin story at all. How refreshing. And then they're like,

JK, we're doing it as a flashback. It's so hard to resist the pull. But I feel like most of the times when somebody resist the pull, it works out, you know? We know with Spider-Man. I mean, that was the whole joke of Spider-Verse. They're like, yada, yada, yada.

This is what happened to me. And it's like, it's played for laughs. And here we have like a dramatic, surreal flashback. I mean, even in Homecoming, we never, you know, we get the illusions to it. Like when you can do what I can and you don't and the bad things happen.

They happen because of you. But we never, we never. we never see it all for time of a spider or a mans spider bit you we get it I got it would you rather be bitten by a radioactive spider yes yeah or man's a radioactive spider the spider for sure a little spider that I can then crunch the man spider is terrifying absolutely which I really enjoyed and I also felt like there wasn't enough there wasn't enough like like weight given to like what the fuck like everybody should have been like what's going on and everybody's like

okay, so this guy who's half spider and have band is biting me. Well, they do like burn it. Yeah, it's a lot. One of the things I loved about Janet was just how confident she was. That was so wonderful. And like you mentioned the, you know, the cultivating the relationships, you know, bringing the lunch to the cops to get the information. And then the way that that actually like doesn't just feel like it's there simply to tell us Janet can do her own thing.

It pays off. She gets the call later. It's like stitched throughout the story. And because Ben, who is like often falling so short, throughout the story kind of finds himself actually out loud saying a few times like it's like you guys forget

that I do this for a living you know about the PI work to then have him say at the end like you're better at this than I am and we know that that is true very satisfying when he like tells her that he's Spider-Man she's just like

yeah I know that's my favorite that's really good and all the beats where he's drunkenly revealed to her and the fact that he has retained none of that and has done it multiple times that was so so so funny

Yeah, I thought he was so... The spider's busy, Janet. He was so good at being goofy. Yeah. Which I was so happy because I was a little afraid that it was going to be... He was going to try and really do Humphrey Bogart throughout. Yeah. So the silliness was very refreshing.

Yes. And I thought was very welcome. And he crush it. Yeah. And then we have the heart from Janet and Robbie in those relationships. So that was really great. On the villain front, who was your favorite of either Silverman or any of his... It could be Lucas Hauss.

B. Winston? Tombstone, Sandman. We know it's not Megawatt for Joe. I don't know what I have. I think the design on Megawatt was so cool in the black and way. I thought that looked incredible. I liked Tombstone just because I thought that he had the most interesting story. You know, he had the he had an arc, you know. Sandman was fine. I wanted Cat to have more depth. I wanted that character. to have another layer. Yeah. Because she was super interesting

and is captivating to watch and was electric on screen. So I was like, ooh, I just wanted, that's why I kept being like, is she black cat? Is this a, is she casing this? Is she going to steal? What's going on?

I think they were just using, they were just using the name. No, you know what I mean? Like, but, no, I really agree with you. I think that like, the Flint, Felicia, the Flint cat thing was the, was the mushyest part of the whole thing

when it's just sort of like theirs is the love story we're supposed to believe in. He ultimately makes a decision at the end of the day because of her. He gets to get the antidote especially so that they can run off to like Santerini or wherever they're going

to be a little happily ever after. But then like why are we meant to buy into the the Ben cat thing at all? We're not. And when he gets so excited about it? Yeah. When he's like saying to Janet like, I'm so excited.

We're leaving tomorrow. I was like, do you believe this? That's what I was like, does he believe that this is real? You're a 62 year old man. Get it together, guy. But she was packing. Like, I feel like she was going to go. And then she said to him at the end, like, if not for Flynn, I would have gone.

I liked his retort. I liked his, like, you know, it's one thing to like fuck around with the guy, but then to like sail away and keep him on the hook. And she's like, fuck off. And it's like, no. I mean, it was like, he deserved to say it. I did have a. I did Google at one point how old the actress was who was playing Felicia Cat, party because I was like wondering about the age difference and it popped up immediately in the

Google search, which means a lot of people were wondering about that age difference. She's in her early 40s, which is just like older than I thought she was. And there are comments throughout that still remains like a younger model and like stuff like that. I mean, she looks incredible. You know, young 40s, young 60s, still an age gap. But I was just like, it's not as gross as I thought it was. But I also, I didn't believe for an instant that there was an actual love connection. No, no, no, no. Not a lot. Not at all, but like, she was going to go with him. Like, the plot is...

I guess was, and that was that simply because it was the only, the path of least resistance to extricate herself from the situation. You know what I mean? Because she thought Flint was gone and said she's like, the next guy. Yeah, I tried to burn down Silverman's place. It didn't work out. I wanted to be with Flint. It didn't work out. So, like, I guess this is the next best thing.

When she does, when she throws herself out of the window, which I quite liked because, like, women in Spider stories always get thrown. thrown off the roof. So the fact that she threw herself out the window, I was like, that's great. She gives him this, like, the look she gives him as she's being sort of reeled back in is very much like, oh, it's the spider. Hello. Yeah. Well, once you know he's the spider. And it's also that it's, you know, like in noir terms, if she is our femme fatale, like her interest can't be trusted. Well, she should have been, like, that's a story I would have preferred is that she's playing him the whole time. But I feel like it was trying to have it both ways. I think it was. I think it very much was. We have the big betrayal. Then she's trying

to come back to him earnestly. at the end and saying. Even when she goes to Janet, she's like, I'm here to like make sure he's okay. But why? Are you? Right. I didn't want anything to happen. She's a villain. I think. I think she should be a villain. I'm not a villain like with malice. I should, she should be looking out for herself. Yeah, that's all. That's all I mean. You know, but in a way that is absolutely negative for him and that she is remorseless, I think, should be part of it, you know. And I still think she should get her guy and still go to Santorini. By the way, great. Yeah. You know, Absolutely.

But it just, it made it, again, mushy enough that I was like, who am I supposed to? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? What is the story? Yeah. Is what I kept having trouble with. And then as I would start to come into view, there would be like an entire episode that is just Nicholas Cage in a mental institution. And I was like, okay, so we're doing one of these? Yeah.

We're doing like a bottle episode for him where he's just in a mental instance. I was like this. It was crazy. It was. It was so crazy. I loved it because it gave us all this madness. But I was also like, we don't have time for this man. Like, I'm not interested in stopping down to tell this part of it now.

Yeah. I think Flint was, didn't totally land. I agree. And like, I think what you're mentioning Boardwalk Empire and Jack Houston earlier, like, I do like the casting on the we're back in a prohibition era story, you know, and you associate Richard with that time. but like, he is so handsome. And he's like, put some shit on my face.

And they're still take me seriously. It's like a bizarre version of like, you know, Tom Hardy can never show his face or something. I don't understand what's going on with that. But I didn't think that this Flint Marco was like particularly charismatic or interesting. Yeah. No, but I thought his design was very cool. Yeah.

I thought all like the tombstone megawatt sandman designs were like the way that the sand moved around his space. At least in black and white, it looked quite good. I didn't think Megawatt looked as good in the true hue because then it's like the kind of like an orangey neon creep up the face versus the, yeah, I didn't see anything. But in black and white, I agree. Yeah, I thought, and I thought it was good that they didn't try and do too much for those three guys. You know, they didn't try and full sandman him, you know. Only at the end you get the like sit, the hand out of the pile of sand.

Yeah, yeah. I did like when he got smushed between the cars and just exploded, like a dune blowing in the wind. That was very fun. on the megawath front, in case he doesn't come up again, just want to share this quote. You ever shut up? No. Why would I deny the world a moment of my grand d'or?

Who has ever said grandchild out way in their life? Grand Dior. That killed me. I was cracking up. What a bizarre, truly bizarre performance from that. When I looked up that guy, like, okay, with love and respect to that guy. When I looked up and found out that he was like a Nickelodeon kid, I'm like, yeah. Oh, I love it.

Yeah. Love it. But that's the thing where I'm like, oh, this is where I wish Sam Raine. had done it. Or if you want to see, to me, the perfect execution of director and this version of Nicholas Cage, I urge everyone at home to please take a moment tonight to put on bad lieutenant port of call New Orleans. This is Werner Herzog directing Nicholas Cage in one of the most unhinged, delightfully so

performances in modern cinema. There are multiple points of, there are multiple shots where you are looking at the existing action through the point of view of a lizard that is also there. So it is some nuts-level stuff. I cannot recommend it enough. And it is this Nicholas Cage, just totally unhinged. Double feature with Mandy or? Great.

Great. Take your preferred substance of choice. Oh, my God. Do you think anyone told Werner Herzog to move the lizard? And he said, no, you're a coward. Just like when they tried to replace the puppet Grogo with Cs. I was like, Mallory's going to make this Warner Herzegov moment about Groku. Either that or the video where you see him actually get shot.

shot by the... Oh, yeah, yeah, by Klaus Skinsky. Yeah. Just one of the craziest things you could possibly watch. And the short where he eats his boot. Yeah. All of it. All of Fitzgerald.

Oh, my God. It's absolutely fucking nuts. What a guy. A true... Just do yourself a favor also and watch the Werner Herzog directed commercial for salt. For his friend's salt. I've never seen this.

Salt? The thing you put on your food? It worked. I bought the salt. Where does it land on the like Orson Wells like wine commercial? No, it's a real commercial. Well, the Orson Well, the one is too. No, I know.

But I mean, it's like, um. But it's just like an actual finished commercial that went to air. Yes. Okay. Correct. It's it is. And it's so Werner Herzog, it's amazing. Exciting.

The, all the lizard shots on fresh air with Terry Gross, Werner Herzog, they're talking about that movie. And she's talking about all these shots that are from the point of view of the lizard. And he says that it's Herzogian. He calls it Her Togian? And I was like, I love this guy so much. What's Manzikian? Yeah.

Who knows? That's not for me to decide. Well, it was for Werner to decide. Yeah. I can't, I wouldn't claim to have that. This is like you can't give yourself a nickname. I can't have that gravitas the way that he does. All right.

He also claims to not dream. I love it, silence. He says he doesn't remember his dreams or that he does not dream. Like his subconscious is not active while he's asleep. That doesn't seem possible. Well, I don't think that's true. Have I ever told you my favorite joke from the league? No, what is it?

It's when your character says Gattaca instead of Attica. Oh, yeah. Was that an improv or was that in the script? Just claim it. And if you claim it, I'm going to say, it's Mr. Ghan. I think it might have been in the script. Because we didn't have scripts. We just had outlines.

And so Jeff would usually, like, have something. If he had a bit or a joke, he would give us that. And I think Gattaca might have been a Jeff pitch. I don't remember, though. It's absolutely something. I would have improvised. Let's call it menzician. Positively manzician.

Any other funny scenes or moments that you guys want to highlight that we haven't talked about already? We talked about the, I already know, your spider montage with Janet, which was my pick for this. I also enjoyed when she said he was yellow

and he's like a coward. She said, banana. Really funny. I loved all that stuff. We talked about this scene where he's doing the stretching and all this,

there's a couple, but there's one in particular that genuinely, And it's especially if you really, I'd love for somebody to clip it and meme it or whatever, because he comes in with the suitcase, with his costume in it. And it looks like that, just that scene looks like a version of Death of a Salesman directed by Guy Madden. It's like true, insane next level other world stuff.

I love when you see it before you quite understand what it is. And you're like, what's happy? Okay. Yeah. Whatever it is. And those were the moments that I felt like really engaged. by the show when it was weird, you know, because when it's trying to do the story, it's not weird at all, and it's very on rails. Unsuccessfully, I would say. I love to in his, like, when he's

doing the physical comedy of the shriveled up spider and all of that, you know, because Spider-Man, so many of the comics, the origin of Peter Parker, all of this is so rooted in the, like, young person goes through puberty and comes to terms with, like, I've got a tingle and then I'm slinging white stuff out of my body what's happening. Yeah. The idea of like old washed Ben Riley spider duar being like, guys, I'm in the refractory period. I'm going to need a minute. No more web slinging for me.

Like that was really, that was really funny. That was just great. I also loved I wrote when he, him playing happy Ben Riley. Oh, yeah. When he sings, I love cheesecake in the morning with you. I was like, what is he up to? I guarantee that's an improv. There's absolutely no way that was in the script.

He's just riffing in a way that I recognize as the insufferable riffing that I do on sets, that people are like, well, this guy just please stop. I'm Ansukia. But boy, are they finding absolutely wonderful stuff? I love eating cheesecake in the morning. I love cheesecake in the morning with you really got me. The whole happy performance, I really loved. I'm just trying to go through all this stuff that I flagged.

I have, yeah. What about just the bottle is just labeled antidote? Oh, my God. Very, very, very, very good. And the people keep looking at it and being like, what is this? Yeah. Well, I got news for you. It's the antidote.

Yeah. I also loved when Robbie, as described in the label, yeah. When Robbie comes in and then Janet is found. And the whole bit about like, well, it seemed like, seem dumb to bring it in. And he's like, yeah, and this is like so much better. That was great. I loved that. I also enjoyed when he called Cat Lady Judith.

This, that just made me laugh. Also, everybody knows he's the spider. Too many people now. He's so bad at keeping the secret. You know what I mean? That I was like, be better at this. It felt very like, Mandelorian.

I was like, does he have to kill every single life? Yes. He needs to go to bathe in the living water so that he can be redeemed. Violation. Like, that rando fucking bartender knows. Oh, that bartender definitely knows. For sure.

Yeah. I was like, no, what's the... I mean, I guess he's drunk. I couldn't figure that out. I was like, Spider-Man really protects his secret identity. But the fact that we got that amazing Janet montage where he's hammered or plastered as he and then has no, is not able to retain the fact that he has like revealed his own identity. Yeah, he's not going to know that that bartender knows.

So that's, that's a liability. It's Todd Fields's freaks that he says is still in theaters. Which is still playing in theaters. I was like, oh, God bless you. You know he's like, what year is it exactly? Yeah, yeah. What year is it exactly? When he made a reference to a 19, I know we're in a day.

different worlds. When you made in a reference to a 1949 Betty Davis movie, I'm like, are we in 1949? Yeah. Are we in, are we, are we, how we traveled into the 1950s?

Because Freaks is much earlier. Freaks is the 30s. Yeah. How much after World War II are we meant to be, you know? I don't know. And that's a great question. And the movie doesn't want you to

ask these questions. Where is the liver inside of your body? Yep. Yes. Don't ask these questions. Yeah. This is, don't interrogate. Don't, don't, don't, don't.

Was prohibition the exact same time in this continuity? Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the best time. No, because, I mean, are they supposed to be World War I? One, it's World War I. That is true. But then, like, then it's, is it 19-old? Then the movies said that moved up.

So then for him to be quoting 1949 movies makes no sense at all. Right. As long as you could still wax poetic about really wanting a hot dog, I'm willing to accept it. Loved all the hot dog stuff. As long as that means. He's doing so much hot dog stuff. He's doing so much business. Yeah.

I mean, and the wigs are doing, the wigs are positive. positively like truly like nuts level. Yeah. The tight one in modern, in contemporary time, but then the floppy one in the flashbacks was really getting me. Also, this is my Mad Night Idol moment. With his white vested shirt on, like gauzy. Those flashbacks were trouble.

Do you think it was his decision to say that he only had one clean glass and then he found another glass and it was dirty, but he would drink from the dirty one and then not just turn on the sink and rinse it? Yeah. That was his choice. Because he definitely could have just. I mean, like, there's a million, there's a million. I feel like when she, because I feel like in that moment she goes, Ben, but I really feel

that she wanted to be like, Nick. Yeah. Stop. Nick, you can just rinse the glass. Nick. We're, we're already over. That's incredible. What about the emotion?

Did any of the emotional moments hit you? I mentioned I really liked the bench scene between Robbie and Ben at the end. I quite, I quite enjoyed that. I thought that was like a, uh, there was some good stuff, but I, yeah, there was nothing, there was no emotional storyline that I felt. particularly connected to, which is, I think, why I wanted more from the detective story. Yes. Why I wanted more shoe leather.

Yeah. Because I wasn't like, oh, but at least I'm having fun inside of this emotional storyline. No, it was kind of neither nor. Shoe leather for Werner Herzogtis. Yes. Yes. Chompchomp. With love and respect to the poor drowned Ruby, none of that stuff worked for me.

No. Truly, agree. Poor drowned Ruby. Just zero percent work for me. It does also seem. know all the particular. He should have been able to get to her, I think. Also, he's the spider.

When he tells the story. And he's just like, I was drunk at the time. And then they cut back to him like, Oh, wait a minute. So he was an asshole? Yeah. He was like, I was supposed to meet her, but I was a good time. Johnny.

Kevin. And his, like, his outfit is wearing like a patterned, you know, jacket. And he's like, ah. A night with the boys. Yeah. I was like, I fucking loved this. And he's like, she died because that was a piece of shit. Oops.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't, it didn't work for me either for that reason. I was like, I don't understand, because it's also like, he's doing Sam Spade. He's doing classic noir, Humphrey Bogart. But then when he's not, he's really not. He's broad in every single way in that Bugs Bunny way in a way in a way that I was like, well, then I don't believe if you were then a bad guy, a Sam Spade, a callus, a Parker, you know, like a callous. remorseless person, then be that still as the spider. Right. You know, be murderous. Be murderous. But the drum they bang so many times is like the spider will save people. He's a good guy.

He will intervene. Right. And I really wish that, like, I wish that it, not that I wish for another like Gwen Stacy moment, but I wish it had been more like a Gwen Stacy moment where it's like I, even I, the Spider-Man, couldn't get or not. I was drunk somewhere in a bar. Yeah. And then I stopped to put my spider suit on and then just kind of floated.

loaded uselessly in the water as she died. By the time I got into the lake, I definitely still could have saved her. For sure, he was so close. No, but he was drunk. A couple whiskey tumblers deep at that point, I think. It's interesting because, like, what you guys are saying, the selfish callous, like, not a great guy thing he's done is decide to stop being the spider for five years, right? And so then when, like, Robbie and his friends have to talk him into, like, you know,

when Robbie says, like, well, you have the choice to, like, help these people now. But I think to your point, like the part where he is, because the cat and ruby stuff doesn't really work, I agree. The place that the Lady Judas stuff sends Ben to actually still did work for me, particularly because he's being so goofy. He's not, he's like mining the depths of his feelings, but he's doing it in a kind of like really exaggerated way. So when he's in the fight with the guys at the bar, these strangers who he feels like the need to defend himself to even though they like, they're nobody of consequence. to him. And he's like, you know, maybe the spider's a guy just like anyone else. You ever think about that? You ever wonder what his problems were? He's swinging around burning, building, saving people. You ever think he feels the heat or gets sad or tired or lonely? I was thinking like even dragons get

lonely from Hadee with Vassaris. Did you have that under your most emotional moment, Mallory? Yes, that was my tears. Because I didn't have a lot of other contenders. So I think the bender, like, that's an example of something that I like and love. And all of it works with the acceptance. of there's a dissonance to it coming out of the mouth of someone so seasoned. Yeah. For a 60-something to be saying words that make more sense from a young person, for a young person to be struggling. This is Peter Parker's struggle.

Peter Parker's struggle is how do I maintain my life and give myself holy to others? You know, like, what is this? You know, and to love someone is to put them in danger. And all of these component things that he is in. his 60s and still lamenting, like... So he went to war when he was in his 50s. Got it. He has... And that, again, like, it's that thing which is like, oh, I'm so glad it's Nick Cage,

and of course. But do you think they even had a conversation that's like, we got to get a younger actor if it is in fact live action. Yeah. You know, he, Nick Cage is perfect for the voice of animated Ben Riley or animated Spider-N-Wa-Wall. I like that he was washed. I just don't think you can give him this soldier backstory. I don't think so. Yeah. Don't make him contemplative. Not with these guys.

Yeah, yeah. Not with these other guys who, unless you make them all old. Right. You know, and it is the 40s. Dude, yeah, makeup. And it was from the teens. Make megawatt 60 is he's like, I'm a star, but he's all wrinkly. Look at me ma.

Top of the world. That would be great. Which effect did you guys like the best of the just styling and like which? Again, I think the henchman face stuff looked really good. Yeah, I thought. I think, and this is not, truly this is not an effect, but I think in a way, the black and white version of it is the effect that I got the most out of. Like, it helped immerse me in this world that it was referencing and always referencing all of the kind of classic

cinematographic. What's the word I want? Cinematography? Cinema, yeah. Cinematographic? Like, right? I'm trying to find the same word. But you know what I'm saying?

Like all those visual cues, all the cinematic cues, but specifically camera, like, Like all this stuff. The canted angles. A lot of up angles to make people. The blinds and the stark contrast between light and dark and dark and all the stuff that's like all the pieces of noir I really enjoyed and really helped me. Because I think if that hadn't been, if I'd watched the color version, I think I would have liked it quite a bit less. Yeah. Oh, no question.

Like it helped put me in the mindset of those movies that I love and those, that kind of storytelling, you know. I was most curious to see how the effect of Sandman translated. I think just because the Sandman looks so horrible in Spider-Man 3, it was interesting to see a different design on Sandman, and it was just refreshing to have to be anything, but that. It was just his little fist. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the face, yeah, but I was like,

what's it going to look like? Is it golden? And it kind of wasn't almost more like gravel than sand. And then when it's like the sand has turned to glass from Megawatt's heat, it's like a kind of ocean blue. I had such an avatar bender moment, like when Megawatt was fighting Sandman, and I was like, what happens when lightning hits sand? Glass, bitches.

There you go. I think she had said that. I mean, but how would he have said it? Glass, bitches. I did like what Megawak got thrown in front of the train during the final battle. It was fun. I enjoyed that. The conductor.

We also did like a full John Wick to Hall of Mirrors. Yes. Oh, that was silver man. Horrible. That was strange. I didn't get that either. Again, I was really eager for the show to be done at that point. Same. And especially I was like, especially because I felt like the Silver Main, the crime storyline for me ended around episode five or six. And then seven and eight just felt interminably long because seven was mostly the mental hospital, Amy Aquino digging his liver out and making it like them, her young son who's an old man. I was like, what is going on?

Good old freckles. Yeah. Freckles. Not nearly enough freckles. his face to have the nickname freckles, by the way. Just throwing that out there. Then he died right away, man. Oh, yeah, he died straight away. Tough one. Both of them. Both of them straight to death.

And you're like, maybe they'll be okay. We didn't see a lot of blood. And then the building explodes. So no, they're dead. Anything else? If you work, if cat, for cat, yeah. Cat goes to the doctor and is like, are you telling me if you know who the spider

is, then you can create an antidote? She should go to Ben and be like, hey, go to the doctor. She can create an antidote from your whatever, genetic makeup or whatever. liver. And instead it's like, seven pints of your blood. So then we were weirdly like, oh, they have to kidnap it. I was like, I don't understand any of this.

Like why they did it like this. You know, that didn't make sense to me. Yeah. And then that element, like you said already, of, are we supposed to really resent her for that? Are we still supposed to be rooting for her even though she's done this? Not just bad thing, but needless. Yes. Ultimately.

It felt like he might want to find a cure as well. Yeah. So why have to do this against his will versus I think if someone approached him and said, we might be able to cure you. Yeah. You don't have to be the spider anymore. And he could be like, great. Right.

Crazy doctor trying to decades age down her, like, trying to, like, force a Benjamin buttoning of her son in her secret lab full of basically the thing for the prestige. Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to say, like, alien resurrection vibes in there for sure. For sure. Like, fallouts of Vault 4, you know, with all the. the mashups of the animals and the people.

Very, very strange, very strange concept. Really weird. What else have we not hit for a spider noir that anybody wants to touch on? I would just say in terms of the bad effects, you know, the digital double, the swinging Spider-Man digital double looked pretty bad most of the time, like especially in the landing sort of moments. But I think the spider suit was so cool looking. The costume looks awesome.

I love it. And I just think like in the fight, like it's, even with the hat on, like it just looked really The texture of it is cool. The goggles are great. And the goggles are really good at, especially in the black and white, obviously, at giving you context for where he is in dark environments, which I loved that as a, just like a visual cute. It was terrific.

I also liked when he was like, because the Silver made a phone call thing, like, he was just like this guy with the sock on his head. Like, he can't understand a word he says. He's like, pretty annoying, actually. That was just, that was very good. Why did you think the double looked bad? Like, because of the, the, not convincingly Nick Cage? or like he's too, is it because he,

no, just the physics were off on like the land. The landing, it just looked like too light and too like Gumby-E as it landed. No, I agree. It should have been more like hobbling from. It looked like animation from the, like the Sam Ramey movies. It looked like old, you know, it just wasn't, it had that problem, which I think is probably endemic with all of their shows.

They just don't have the money to do it as well as it can be done for eight episodes of a TV show. It makes you appreciate like how good, a job they do it with Tom Holland's digital double and stuff like that on those. It's incredible. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's not too late to get Nick Cage into Billy Elliott before season two of Spider-Numar and then have him become like an expert dancer. Okay.

And do his own stunts. Oh, wow. It is too late to get Nick Cage of Billy Elliott. And you think Billy Elliott is the middle step? If he's trying to replicate Tom Holland's grace and limeriness. I see. I see. Yeah.

I mean, he could do something. something else. Will he be able to do like a Rihanna umbrella rendition? Was Tom Holland, Billy Elliott? On the stage. On the stage. Jamie Bell on the screen. So both Billy Elliot's have became superheroes. It became superheroes.

Body horror superheroes, yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, sure is. What does that say about the world we're living in? We'll be right back with Morhasibar. All right. It's time for a favorite tradition across the Ringer podcast network. Manzukis recommends.

Oh, okay. Here we go. All right. So I'm here to talk about anime. This is very new to me. I'm a very new to anime person. Like I said, I'm a 53-year-old man who has a crunchy roll subscription and no children, which is allowed. I checked. You looked it up. It's cool. In California only or nationwide? By the way, good question. They're locking it down in some states. I read an article about this show, Freerin, Beyond Journey's End. I don't know, whenever it was air. season one, so a couple years ago, that made it sound so interesting and right up my alley that I sought it out, I subscribed to Crunchyroll, and I watched it and became obsessed with it. And this show I've watched in its entirety at least six or seven times. I've watched it constantly. It's like it is, it's a real balm. It's been a real balm in my life, I'd say in these, in the years since it came into my life.

And it is incredible storytelling. Wait, correct. Have you guys watched? How much have you guys watched? I watched like five episodes, I want to say? I'm through episode 10. Okay, great. And so I've watched all of it.

There's just two seasons. And season, it's like 36 episodes total or something like that. Are they making a third season? I believe so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But, and it's based on a manga that I have not read and purposefully will not read because I don't want to be spoiled as to what's going on in this context

because I'm so enjoying this interpretation of it. Sometimes spoilers matter. If you told me that something happened in it, I wouldn't be mad at you. Right. But I'm enjoying receiving the story like this, so I don't want to first do it this way and then receive the entirety of the story. And just so I'll break it down for people, because I think your show in specific is this show is for your demo. Yeah. This is a show that is about, it's called Beyond Journey's End.

And so at the very beginning of this story is the very end of the story that has been. before, which is a party of heroes, adventurers, managed to defeat the Demon King, who's been just a absolute, brutal, terrible figure in this world for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, if not thousands of years, a big bad. And the party of heroes is a warrior, Himmel the hero, a warrior, rather Himmel the hero, a warrior, Eisen, the kind of priest. the hider and the mage, who is Freerun, who's an elf. And it's, the show is about an elf, Freerun, who is, because she's an elf, immortal.

And you are watching a show that is about people fighting dragons and being on an adventure, and it is for shows like this. It is a found family show. It is a, it is a Lord of the Rings. It is a fellowship show. It is people in pursuit of a task that is so big, but along the way, they are doing things. They're helping other people with their needs and engaging in smaller acts of service throughout the land. And you're watching it from the point of view of a character, Friedgren, who's essentially immortal,

who becomes consumed with and heartbroken by this idea that she does not know how to have human relationships with people because their lifespans are so short to her. They're on this adventure that for the group of heroes is so totemic for them because it's a decade of their lives. And she's like, that's nothing. And she's like, I'll see you in 50 years to, we'll meet again to see the meteor storm again in 50 years. And when she sees them, they're all old and dying. And she doesn't, she hasn't aged a beat.

And they are all, it sends her into this kind of existential crisis. And she then takes on an apprentice, starts to assemble a new group that she's. So the show is bouncing between her and her apprentice Fern, who is maybe one of my favorite characters in all of stories. in all of stories now. They're young warriors stark. And they are now walking the path that she walked in her former fellowship, in her former group. They are walking the same path, encountering some of the same townspeople, encountering some of the same bad guys.

But really, it's about learning how to connect with people and learning how to be a friend and a human being and how to really connect with people. And that, to me, I think, is what I think is. is wonderful about the show is I watch a lot of shows, anime shows that are about people fighting demons and people fighting dragons, Jiu-Jitsu Kaizen and Demon Slayer and all these shows that are sentenced to being a hero. These are great shows that are a blast. But Freerun to me is, those things happen throughout, but really it's about the slice of life moment-to-moment, episodic nature of their group of friends getting to be closer with each other. And it is so

satisfying and so sweet. And I think that's why I keep coming back to it. It scratches that itch to me that like Great British Bake Off does. Like it feels wonderfully cozy to be in Freerin's world with her. I'm curious what you guys have thought so far, knowing that you've only watched a little bit of it. I'm immediately kind of obsessed with it. And I should say, thank you so much. Like, you're the impetus for me watching it. But our listeners have been trying to get us to watch it for a while. They were right. You're right. The premise, and I think this is okay to say, because it is the premise of the show is that, you know,

the death of Himal the Hero, which is what starts everything, starts her introspection and her emotional sort of awakening. That idea, and we flash back constantly to them as, you know, I've, check it off your bingo card.

I have to talk about West World Season 1. West World Season 1, she's walking that same path that she walked before and remembering what it was like. There's this, will they won't, they between

Feryn and Himmel, but we the viewer know they never will because he's died and it is so much pain to watch it's a comfort it is a bomb

is a cozy show it's a cup of tea it's a quilt but it's also like that very conceit that very premise of he's so in love with her

and she's so oblivious and you know she's never going to figure it out before he dies because we already watched him die and so I'm just going to

watch him like pine for her and then her regret not understanding what he meant to her. Well, when she goes back and finds him 50 years later and he turns around and he says, Freeran, and she says, Himmel, you're so old. Yeah. And she's, the wonderful thing about Freeran is she's blunt. Yeah. She's tactless. She is so just forthright, cold, removed.

She does not connect emotionally with people. And you're right, it is. It's the death of Himal, the hero. that sets this whole thing in motion, and she starts to sob, and she's basically like, I thought I had more time to get to know him. The sentiment of I thought I had more time

is so central to what she's going through. And again, she's immortal, but the time she's now aware of is our time, is the humans time, the humans that are around her, you know. And then her making more of an effort to connect with Eisen, to connect with Heiter,

and try and find them and make sure that she is of service to them in their later years because she knows that they are also dying. And that that's how when she comes to Haiter and she's, you know, coming to him to be like, this is the end of your life? Is there anything I can do? He says, will you take this girl on, Fern? And as an apprentice. And then there's this great episode that is, you know, a ruse.

Yeah, a ruse that takes place over many years. That's the other thing that's great about the story. show is the show is constantly expanding and collapsing time. You know, like when, when they arrive in a village, you know, Fri-Rin will be like, well, we could stay here a little while. And Furn will be like, what's a little while? And Furn will be like two or three years. It'll take us two or three years to clear this beach or whatever. And so you're just really very kind. Maybe it's because I am middle age and thinking about time so much and time seems to be, to me, speeding up in a way that is really unsettling. The way that Freerun talks about having time and the way that everybody else talks about

not having time is so potent and so heartbreaking. You know, there's just, it is a, it is a show that is so light and fun, but then about such real heavy, like, existential issues. It's absolutely dying. It made me think a lot about Avatar The Last Air Bender, you know, which is, yeah, like, that sort of, like, found family. It's, it's. Yes, there are these big adventures we have, but it's about the relationships that we build the friends we made along the way. Isn't it always? And it is like episode to episode, them going into towns and having to tackle small problems. The small problems, though, that connect them to the people around them.

And that that's what's, and the younger Fern and Stark are constantly saying, why are we doing this? Why are we wasting time helping these people clear the beach? And she's like, or why does Himmel have statues everywhere? Yeah, I love the statues. It's this idea of like, make people's lives better, make people's lives easier and they will remember you. You know, like that is your legacy is to have helped these people not to have slain the dragon or whatever. That's great. But, you know, like, it's just, oh, boy, do I love this.

And also, like, to learn that you can slay the dragon by yourself, you know, in Stark's case. I get a real kick out of Stark. I love him. Yeah, I'm absolutely loving it. And Adam's loving it. It's like, we're, I think the first season is 28 episodes. So, like, we've barely, you know, barely begun our journey. but just the first ten,

especially because where we are through right now is these demon confrontations, the multi-arch stretch, that is like really intense in terms of thinking about, like, morality and what you get to decide about, like, what is good or people are right? Yeah, it's getting quite intense and deep. And what's really interesting,

and neither of you have gotten there yet, and this is not a spoiler, I don't think, but the second half of season one is in its entirety a test. It is they are being, they have to achieve a certain grade of witchcraft, of, of mastery over magic, which Freerun has above and beyond. But, and so what you're doing is like they're just building out the world and then giving you really all these unique and fun puzzles to get them involved. Yeah, like I, you said existential. There is something deeply philosophical and existential about it. It's quite poignant and moving. It's like very smart and devised.

I have found it like very entertaining and compelling, but also deeply moving. I mean, the log line of like Limburg, Ben Limburg, our colleague Ben Limburg, was the first person who pitched it to me actually. And he pitched it as like, much like I think many of the bad babies have. It's basically like Lord of the Rings ends and then, right? Which was obviously. Well, it's like George R. Martin being like, what's Aragon's tax policy? You know what I mean? In their little cradles!

The baby arcs in their little cradles. Yeah, what happens after Robert's rebellion. And that's what this is. Like this beyond journey's end is the title of the show. Like once the big, what's the big story's over? What next? Exactly.

And like to use the familiar archetypes that if you are a fan of Lord of the Rings, you're going to like, okay, so we have art. That's all really great and really fun. But when Limburg pitched it to me and he was describing it about grief, I was like, I don't know if this is the right time. And then when you, when you pitched it to me when I saw you and Halo had just died, you were like, I think that's why you would love it. Yeah.

Because, sorry. It's like I think like It is very much about like Missing people But it's about the way you put it to me was like It's about like learning to feel the gift of those memories Yeah keeping them in your mind

Yeah And so like That's been really lovely And like it's sad to You know think about loss as I'm watching I think that's why we've been going very slowly through it But It has been like very cathartic too

to just think about like, I don't know how the new experiences that you have in your life and the new bonds that you form, like allow you to think back with grief and sorrow and longing, but also just like with so much gratitude, you know, and that like so much of life is a journey toward gratitude and appreciation. So like I really loved that part of it. And I think like, you know, this was early. It's like this, God, it might be like the second episode, but like the blue flowers like looking to put the, yeah, the blue flowers. Yeah, the blue flowers on Himmel statue and just like, I love that. And taking the time, taking the time. Taking the time to find them and just like do something that also is fleeting. Because those flowers will die and they won't be there next time but means something.

It's like the jet, like, it's paying attention to things. It's how we show love. You know, it's the Bill and Frank Last of Us idea. And like, that's just been really nice. And then, yeah, we're always talking about, you know, time. Now I have the Buffy angel version of that, which has been really. fun and I always like to think about like, you know, Loki and Thor and Jane and like say goodbye. And like it made me think too of like Dern and Elrond and Rings of Power.

And when he, when Elrond shows up, it's been 20 years and his friend is like, you just like forgot about me. He missed my wedding. He missed everything. Totally. Oh, yeah. And that idea of perspective and the way that Freeran is just learning to appreciate the people. And like that's been cool when they go to these different towns and communities, the statues and the way that these heroes and like for us in story and the

the world of story and culture, like these archetypes, right? That, like, that has sustained these villages. Like, this thing that happened there and the idea that it is worth remembering and worth remarking upon. And, like, the promises, you know, the promises that someone will return to help them again. And then Freer and a person who had not, or a mage and elf who had not thought about that, then being in the position to be the one to ensure that that, like, prophecy can be fulfilled.

And she is largely forgotten. Yeah. Like, it is Himel, the hero who the statues are all of Himmel. Yes. It's very rare is it that there's a statue of all four of them. It happens, but very rare. But it's, it's he'll, it's him of a hero always. And then every once in a while, someone will be like, he traveled with an elven age.

Do you know her? Yeah. You know? And I don't know if this will be a recurring through line, I assume so, but the way that there are different kind of legends around her, like it's like Frear and the Slayer is where I am now. I'm like, well, and you also get to me, this is also a world that she is one of very few elves left alive. Like tremendously few. So in those instances in the future where you do meet another elf, it's very impactful. Yes.

Or there's, without just giving too many things away, there are also a couple of instances where they find statues of people they don't recognize. It's not a statue of Himal the Hero. It's a statue of, let's just say, the Hero of the South, who I will name but not say anything else about in that season two. And absolutely my favorite episode of Season 2 is about the Hero of the South. It is electric storytelling. I think I've watched it all, like I said, so many times. I had spinal fusion surgery last year and was in bed for about six weeks and watched it over and over and over. It is the most satisfying watch.

It is so, it is so rewarding to keep digging into it. It is like a perfect storybook, you know? There's just something. And what they're doing in season two, super interested. That's the other thing is like, you think it's going, you think you understand what it's doing. And like I said, the back half of season one is this large exam that they all are taking, sort of, you know, this kind of, it's in this different architecture. A trial. Yeah. And then in season two, back to kind of itinerant moving towards a railway kind of on our path towards Mount Doom or, you know, whatever.

And all of the kind of little adventures there are. It's, guys, guys, come on. Or a lot of it. Now, can I get you? Okay. One of the thing I want to say is, like, that structure, that, I find that love story structure really profound as it relates to what you were saying about grief, because there's this, the way in which you're watching, I'm only five episodes in,

but the way of which it seems to me that, like, Himmel was in love with her. Yeah. And she is sort of realizing that she was in love with him. And she is falling in love with him to a certain degree via her memories of him. And as she revisits and understands him better and thinks about it more and views him from a different perspective, like, she's like, oh, this person was so much more important to me than I appreciated it at the time and then I realized. And so I think that is such a huge part of what grief is or can be is just this sort of like even deepening of a bond you already, you know, he was already a good friend of hers. But in the loss of him and then in the memory of him and in this journey that physically takes her. from memory to memory to memory, she falls in love with him in a way that is just so,

I mean, human and so us. Well, yeah, and it really is so very much about her having to force herself to think about a tiny fraction of her life, these 10 years that she spent with this party of heroes. Right. It's just a, she is, again, thousands of years old. For her, so she's excavating it because she's realizing how impact. and important it was. And in fact, those relationships and the relationships now with Fern and Stark are, as the show goes on, foundationally changing her in an incredible way.

And how it changed, yeah, to your point, how it changes how she can connect to people now. It's great. Okay, so I'm obsessed with this show and another friend of mine also obsessed with this show, Rishi K. Shearway, who is, you know, a friend of mine and we're talking about it, blah, blah, bye, and have you watched Free Run? Oh, we're watching. We're great. I watch. Amazing, blah, blah, blah. We're going back and forth. And so, and I was saying, I'm just going to, I, I, I clipped this because I was like, oh, I want my other recommendation is a recommendation from Rishi.

And this was the text back and forth. He says, Apothecary Diaries, question mark. And I say, haven't watched. I loved Delicious in Dungeon. That was one of my recommendations, which is also fantastic. But he says, apothecary diaries is great. And then this is what made me immediately. I'm not kidding.

Immediately press play on episode one of apothecary diaries. He says, an upstairs downstairs house MD set in feudal China. Jane Austenny will they, won't they? But also a medical mystery procedural. And I was like, go, go, go, go, go. Can I just tell you my experience with Rishi is that like nobody gives a special. specific recommendation better than he does. He's the greatest.

Oh, he's so good. It is the apothecary diaries. There's only two seasons of it. So, again, another, because one of my things with anime is a lot of these shows have massive catalogs of episodes. Can't do it. I'm not going to do it. But this, I was like, there was only one season, I think, when he recommended it.

So I was like, yes. And I got this, do you have either of you? I watched the first one last night. Okay, great. What did you think? I will be watching it as soon as I get home tonight. I thought it was incredible. So what?

know the setup at all? Okay, so I think Rishi's description is very good. It is. In the opening moments of episode one, it's about a young girl who is the daughter to an apothecary, it's feudal China, she works in the pleasure district, creating selves and bombs and medicines for the, for the sex workers in a brothel. She is kidnapped and sold into essentially slavery in the rear palace where all the emperor's, um, um, um, courtisons live, cortisans or concubines? Concubines. Sorry. Where the emperors concubines live.

And she is like meant to be just like a servant there. But then they slowly realize that she has an apothecary skill set. And so they start to put her to work solving the mysteries of the palace. So it is palace intrigue. It is also a will they won't they, but between her and the guy that runs the rear palace. Master Jinshi, who is, well, I won't say anything more about him. They're all Unix. So there's a little bit of a, for Thrones fans, a little Missy and the Worm energy here,

which I'm enjoying only one episode in. And so it really becomes this story where she is trying, she's, she just exists now in this new world and is Mao Mao is her name. And she is one of my all-time favorite characters in stories now. I'm obsessed with this character because she is, it is. It's like it is a medical, it's a mystery procedural, but it's always building out these character relationships and these character dynamics that she has with the other ladies in waiting, with the staff of the rear palace, all this intrigue, all of these assassination attempts. There's so much going on. And her cursory knowledge of and ability to, she's also obsessed with poisons.

Yes. Not just that they exist, but she wants to drink them all. She wants to drink all poisons to see what they do. Learn on the job. She's like really into like getting poisoned, being poison. She becomes a taster. And she's, and there's a great moment where she's like, she's just like being a taster. And she's like, oh, it's good.

Everything's good. And then she's like, this is poison. And it's awesome. And it's just, it's glee. It's absolutely. It's, this show is fantastic. And then similarly to Fri-Rin, they make big moves in later storylines that aren't so that it doesn't just feel like. you know, like case of the week, because it does feel like a little bit of what we were saying,

we wished for Spider-Noire. It does feel in season one, like kind of case of the weeky while it establishes all these relationships, which I think is really smart. And then season two kind of cracks it open into those relationships, flipping it, so that those relationships become the focus and the case of the week kind of fades a little bit. Really fantastic show. I was wondering about that because I watched the first episode before bed last night, loved it, excited to watch more.

but I wasn't sure what that, because it does have the, like, the setup of, okay, and then she'll, she'll, they now know that she has this skill. Also,

I love just a little detail of, like, she's the only serving girl who can read. So, like, she kind of outs herself as, like, the one who left this clue

because he writes, that was like, those little details were really good. There's a character you're going to love coming up. I'm excited. The other Mao Mao. They're also, like,

a lot of hot people in the show. A lot of hot cartoons. You know, I love a hot cartoon. But I was curious. about the balance of case of the week versus bigger story because I've got hot D-brain,

but it had a little bit of a house of the dragon like in the first episode but maybe that's just that case is the emperor's different lovers and their different kids. Certainly that's a component of it, but it's not every case is about that. How long are the episodes?

22 minutes? Yeah. Wow, that's so much story in the first episode. Oh, yeah. It was like incredibly packed. And you barely have scratched the surface. And that's the thing they do very well, is it just keeps revealing a much larger story.

Is at play a much large? All of these people are actually connected by these three storylines. And it takes her so long to figure a lot of this out. It's, it's dynamite. And it's also, this and Freeran, I also think in particular, are beautiful. They're not just great shows, great stories, immersive storytelling, artistically beautifully rendered. Can I ask you a really important question?

Yeah. Are you a sub guy or a dub guy? Okay. Great question. So for Freerun, I watch it the first time through subtitle. I watch it in Japanese. And then all my subsequent rewatches are in English. And the actors are great.

For Apothecary Diaries, I did the same thing. For the shows like Jujitsu Kaisen, for the more like just fighty, actiony shows, I just listen to the English dub. Because I'm not, I'm there mostly for the spectacle. Right. And less the immersive storytelling. Got it. And so, but these shows I watch first time through, because I've watched both of them a lot, because there's only two seasons of both of these shows. So it is, you can do it over and over again.

but the people they have doing the English dub are terrific, free-run especially, and Mao Mao is whoever's doing that voice is great in apothecary diaries. I'm doing the subs subtitle so far first time, which is, I think, a good way to do it. It obviously just practically can't be like looking down at like a sandwich or something. You love to look at your set. You love to look at your sandwiches. Well, as you guys both know, we do like to sit at our TV trades and like us. Can't even do that.

Got to be like locked in for the subs. but it's been really fun to watch her in that way. Maybe not to jump back to Spider-Nuar, but remember the scene where Nicholas Cage is eating the sandwich in front of the telephone booth waiting for the phone call? Yes, that was incredible. And it's like he's like I'm like, I like, I'm like. He's eating this scene like he's eating this sandwich.

It is just chomp, chomp, chom. That was great. That was good. Wonderful. Great. Both of these shows, I think, are 10 out of 10. Like a masterpiece. I think Fri-Rin is a masterpiece.

Crunchy roll is where you watch them. Crunchy roll. They're both on Netflix right now, though. They are both on Netflix. Oh, I did not know. I just wanted to support Crunchyroll because Tyler from Crunchyroll has been emailing me for a little year. Yeah, shout out Tyler. Shout out Tyler.

So I'll just throw a delicious and dungeon incredible show. What a title. It is characters similarly, a adventurers. They're not heroes, they're adventures. They're exploring a dungeon that appears to have no bottom. They are traveling into elements and areas that have never been traveled before. They're looking for treasure. They're looking for this.

They're still looking for that. But what this show is unique is they are constantly coming across, monsters and flora and fauna that are trying to attack them and kill them and all this stuff. And when they do and they win, one of their, their warrior

sets up and cooks it all. So there's, the show stops down for meal prep and eating. I've seen, I've seen a clip from this. Wonderful. And because he's like, you know, and I just take this,

the scorpion and I cut the tip off. And it does all the film language of like master shit. Not man. One of those kind of like a cooking show. It becomes all of the film language of those shows. And it's awesome. Top Chef Delicious Dungeon. There's a show called that I'm now 10 episodes into that I feel like you guys would like,

which is called Ascendance of a Bookworm. Oh my God. Well, you have us from the title alone. It is about a woman who is like, like I'm going to say like a 20 year old woman. something like that. I think she's college or just out of college. Librarian, obsessed with books. Love it. Dies. Oh, geez. This is the opening moments of the show. Is reborn into a world without books. And the show is about her. She's also a child now. She's like five or six years old or something like that. But she still has the knowledge of a mom. And she's in the world is kind

of like medieval almost. You know what I mean? So, and there are no books. Or there are so few books. And nobody knows how to read. She knows how to read. She can count. She knows numbers. So she's like a six-year-old who's like immediately like, people are like, what's your deal, man? And she's just obsessed with making books and all about books and reading and stories. And it's terrific.

So this is like Hamesh Patel telling everyone about the Beatles? That's very similar. Yes. Very similar. I mentioned a bunch of other stuff. I'm going to mention a couple of more things. Gendi Tarni Tarki's primal is like, maybe the single best

masterpiece of visual storytelling because there is no dialogue. It is just a caveman befriends a dinosaur as if it's his pet and they fight. And it is just visually a masterpiece. You cannot believe what an incredible bit

of visual storytelling. The TV show Primal is. I'm going to go away from animation for a brief moment here. Just because I think you guys will like this if you don't know it yet. Are you familiar with the Mark Gaddis show bookish. Yes, yes, yes.

I've not seen it. What do you think Joanna Robinson about bookish? I love it. I'm obsessed with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obsessed. I love Mark Gettis. I think he's so funny.

Same. I think it's great. It's worth seeking out. It is a Sherlock Holmesian post-World War II detective show set in like a very post-World War II London and Mark Gattis working with the police to help solve mysteries. Great, great, great stuff. And last, but not least, I will ask you Joanna Robinson specifically, how do you feel about season 21 of Taskmas?

So is it seriously season 21? It is currently season 21 is airing. Wow. We call it Kumail season. It's the Kamianjani season. Oh yeah. Kumal, um, your season of Taskmaster.

Season 19 was one of the most important things that's ever happened in my life because you are a real crossover breakout into the U.S. market of Taskmaster. And I had friends that I was trying to watch Taskmaster for literally like eight years. Oh, yeah. And finally they watched it because. A, it's a bit more accessible on YouTube now, and B, they're like, oh, Jason Manzuka's is on. I'll watch. Oh, that's how I got friends to watch it, who I couldn't get to watch it.

I had to be on it. The season is Mansookian. When we ran into each other at Mateo, and you were like, hi, Joanna Robinson, we're meeting each other face-to-face the first time. And I was like, I would like to now grill you about your experience on Taskmaster. It hadn't even premiered yet. And I was like, well, tell me, does this happen on Taskmaster? And does this happen on Taskmaster?

This season is really good. It's funny watching Kumail... I feel like he's kind of trying to do what you did, but your energy is so distinct and his energy is so distinct that it's reading completely differently. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know that he's trying to. Well, he had, I will say this,

he had not seen mine when he did him. Okay. So because of when mine aired and when he shot, he is doing what he chose to do. Yeah. Which I love because I think, and I don't think I'm wrong, I think Camel would say this.

I think Camel wants to win. Oh, yes. I did not. Oh, no, you just wanted to cause chaos. My whole thing was, if I'm winning, I can't be doing my thing. Yes. And I said as much to Alex. I said, listen, you cannot let me win because I then can't, I have to be able to operate from behind.

My whole bit only works if I'm losing. As a taskmaster veteran, a veteran of the taskmaster wars. Maybe that is like the greatest, the greatest reference of my, I, like, it was the greatest experience workwise. Yeah, go ahead. How do you feel about the egg bit in season 20? I'm loving it. Yeah.

I'm loving it. So, okay, the premise of Taskmaster, right, is that these, they assemble a panel of comedians, and they have previously, how long ago do you tape the tasks? It depends season to season, but you're, you know, like within, within the previous six months, you've probably come for a couple of instances to shoot. You've been filmed to complete all of these tasks. Right. And then the show is the comedians assemble in studio, and each episode.

episode, they break up the tasks into like, let's say, four or five tasks at a time, and there's interstitial of the comedians in the studio. But once you get in the studio, and this has happened a couple times, some contestants will find out that there was a task that was only assigned to them and to no one else. And one of the panelists this season, this is the worst that's ever been, because usually it's just like one task. Oh, I had to like count all these peas or whatever and nobody else had to. And this season, he has been given an egg that he has to keep on his person at all time not break it. So it's

like hooked to him in this little like harness in a protective case. But in the tasks he's got it built into his hat. And it has to when a signal is given he has to be able to present his egg at any given moment. Within 30 seconds. But he's the only person

in the entire show. But he doesn't know that. What if he breaks it? What happens? What if he drops it? Who knows? Who knows? He's not broken the egg? Here's the thing about Taskmaster. No. It's a big who cares. Yeah. He's not benefiting from it.

He's not losing anything from it. But you feel like, I got to do this. I got to do this. Alex tells me I have to do it. So like, it's such an elaborate. He had to have an unbroken egg on him, the same egg. At all, allegedly, at all times, and none of the rest of the contestants had to do it. Oh, it's so funny.

And they, it's this guy, it couldn't have been a better person. Joel is, he has the childlike wonder of a person. He's delighted to be there. He's having the best time. It's working. I think it would have been, if anybody else had gotten it, it would have been a much different story. One of my favorite, I agree, because they would have been like, people could be, like, some people can be so, like, some people can be so, like, your specific task. I didn't get one. So my season didn't have a, one person gets singled out task. It only happens every once in a while. There was one, Mark had to text them every day. And he did it for like a year. Yeah. And then they were like, it means nothing.

It wasn't a real task. In the studio about it. That was just a prank. You don't understand how much of my life has been spent doing this. It's so funny.

I also love Joanna Page who's on this season, who I know from Gavin and Stacey, but like, she's one of the Welshest people you'll ever meet.

And there's just this, like, energy where it's just like mom energy. It's like coozy Ramsey in my season. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cookey mom energy.

And they're just like, just a blend of comedians that they get is so incredible. She does a thing that I love. love on a taskmaster season that happens only every once in a while. And I think because she is, they are really letting her run with it or they're including it because she's so good.

And also she does a thing where she just starts telling a story. Yeah. She just starts telling a story about her life. Yeah. And it's all about like the time she clogged the toilet at her in-laws house and they had to get a plunger and this and that. So that gets her into and that's why I've brought a plunger here today. You know, and her stories are so fantastic.

And she's so funny. And I don't know Gavin and Stacey. So one of the things that I love about Taskmaster is it is, for me, an introduction to so many people that I previously either did not know or have only a cursory understanding of. I know what Gavin and Stacey is, never seen it. I would say 90% of British comedians that I know I know from. And they're like some of my favorite. You know, like. Oh, yeah.

So like. But Armando Inucci is like one of the panelists this season. And watching him. do the goofiest stuff is so satisfying. My discovery from your season was Fatia, who was so funny. But similarly, like, she could just start telling a story and you just like let her tell her story about her Batman bedroom or whatever it is. And like, it's going to be incredible.

Those episodes, because you shoot for like, we would shoot for like three and a half, four hours to be cut down into like 45 minutes. And a lot of it was just Fatia telling stories that were so fucking funny that they would just let her go because it was like we were enjoying it so much. Yeah. Great. Great. I also feel that like, because the UKSNL that just launched,

they have like a couple former Taskmaster. They have Anya. They have MSCDs on there. And I'm just sort of like, I feel slightly ahead because I'm like, I know you from Task Manager. I love it. This season is great. I'll say if you're not a Taskmaster fan, start with season 19. Of course.

Obviously. Then my other favorite seasons would be five, seven, Sam Campbell. I don't know the way numbers. Like what are the, oh, Sam Campbell season? Five is Ashling B and Nish Kumar and the legend Bob Mortimer. Oh, my God. Seven is James A. Castor, Rod Gilbert, and that crew. Sam Campbell is 15 or 13.

No, I can't remember. Somewhere in those that run is Australian comedian Sam Campbell, who is one of the most unique comedic voices I've heard in a decade. Cannot break him, never been broken. Have you seen last one laughing? Yes, last one laughing is so... Him and David Mitchell going head to head as, like, screaming in each other's faces, not laughing,

is some of the most banal. Anna's stuff I've ever seen. They broke the show. Yeah. Season one of the last one laughing had my favorite duo, which is Bob Mortimer, who is a full genius, and Richard Aowadi, who I think is the funniest person alive. And those two

trying to break people and trying to team up and break other people or break each other. But like watching Richard break, which never happens, but broke on that show. Joe Wilkinson's one of my favorite of all time who I met through Taskmaster. Of course, the potato. Of course, the potato. The potato.

That's what we're one. That's my favorite. That might be my favorite season. Oh, that's a great one. I mean, and that's two? What is that? I think the second season. Yeah.

Yeah. This season, I think, is a great ensemble. I'm very into it. Oh, my God. I was just back in London and had lunch with my whole cast. We had the best time. The lunch lasted nine hours. It was incredible.

Crazy. Can I just tell you maybe to, like, get you into Jason's season of his, his lure is not enough for you. One of his co-panelist, Matthew Bainton, is wearing the shortest shorts that have ever exist. You pick one outfit. Like Paul Meskell? Short shorts. Shorter. Did you watch British ghosts? Yeah. Okay.

He's so funny. And like he other than you, he was the other person I was most familiar with on your season. Well, he is like a super famous. Yeah. But he's wearing, you pick like an outfit and sometimes it's like a super weird outfit. You know, like Noel Fielding is you know, like wearing that yellow boiler suit sort of thing. Phil Wings wearing like the jumpsuit. The Kill Bill

jumpsuit or the Bruce Lee jumpsuit. You pick, like, one thing to wear for all your tasks for, like, continuity reasons and stuff like that. Matthew pitched the shortest shorts known to men, and some of these tasks make you, like, crawl around on the ground and all this stuff, and they just had to, like, blur out his ball. Oh, his nuts are falling out constantly. And he's the most embarrassed man. He is, like, he's mortified, but it's happening constantly. Those are short short. Oh, boy, it's so funny.

They're a little too loose around the way. Oh, yeah, they're, like, runners shorts. That's why the nuts are just like constantly flopping out. It's so funny. He was, he made me laugh so hard. I'm so sorry. I could talk about Taskmaster. It's a great season.

My season is probably the best season that's ever been. Obviously. But no, please, everybody should watch Taskmaster. Start right now or, and it's, the beauty of the show is all of it. And in its entirety, every episode is on YouTube for free. Yes. So you can access it immediately. You can get cut up at any time.

It's great. I want to thank you. for the recommendation on this show of Lovesick. Yes. Or Scroortle Recall, as I heard it was called. Yeah. I didn't know. Fantastic.

Oh my God. It's so good. Obsessed. I mean, I desperately, I think that me and Daniel Ing, or Inge? Ings. There's an us on the end. Oh, okay. Right?

Yes. I think he and I need to be in something together being, being absolute lunatic. Do you feel like he kind of stole your look, your swag? Not at all. With the curls? I mean, he looks great. It's not my look. I thought he looked great, though.

You would have been a great laughing storm. If I could pull off a British accent. You know, I was asked to audition for the Lord of the Rings. Not the Lord of the Rings. Rings of Power. Asked to audition for Rings of Power with a very specific British accent. I was told with this British accent. I was like, okay, great.

So I hired a dialect coach. I did two sessions with the dialect coach, like two hours each session. And at the end of the second one, she was like, I don't think you got it. And I was like, I agree with you. Can we hear it? Not even remotely. You can't, no, because I can't do it at all. And I literally called my agents and I was like, yeah, you can turn it down.

There's just no way. We're not going to get there. And truthfully, I was like, I'm, I'm underwater, you know, with that. I couldn't wrap my head around it. Now I'm just devastated that we don't have you on rings of power. I know, right? Wouldn't that be funny? What if you had gone in and just made a complete?

different choice. You could have been the megawatt. Oh, boy. Yeah, if I'd done it as like a ratat-tat-tad. Yeah, exactly. I'll stop. Oh, wow. The grandiard of middle earth. Hey, a scladrulliator. Yeah, were you going to be Halperand? I was in guys and dolls. I could do this.

Oh, man. What a treat this was. Oh, my God. Come on. When will you come back? Whenever you want me. Whenever you want me. I mean, there's so much. many things to talk about. Yeah, we don't want to, I mean, we want you back for Shadow Lord season, too, but we don't want to wait. Oh, we can do it before that. Yeah.

We've got stuff on the horizon. I mean, you bring me in whenever you want. What are you most excited for the rest of this year? Yeah, yeah. What's your hot summer hype? That's a good question. What's in the hype right now? We've got the Odyssey coming.

We've got a Spider-Man movie. We've got Hot D, which you already said, eat shit hot D. I'm super excited for the Odyssey. Lanterns? Lanterns, I'm genuinely curious about. Lanterns is one that for me, I'm like, it could go. great, or it could be kind of just a whatever. If it's a whatever, that's disappointing.

But if it works and it, but it, I'm a little nervous. I will say I'm a little nervous. But I have high hopes. Star Wars is, I'm always looking for more Star Wars. But boy, it's tough. You know, it's tough out here. Now that Andor is over, it's tough out here to be looking forward to Star Wars. Yep.

Stories, right, right now. I still wish we would get the Damon's original script, the Lakeith Stansfield. Protestant Reformation inside of the force, yeah. There's a lot that I want, I want Star Wars to do that I just don't think, I mean, I'm still waiting for Dark Disciple. I'm still waiting for a Quinlan Voss appearance. There's people and stuff that I'm interested in, but nothing right now that I'm like, ah, I can't wait for them to do this, you know, because it doesn't.

seem like they want to do this. Where are you on the other DC stuff? You're excited for Supergirl, Clayface. Supergirl, I'm super excited for, I loved that book. I thought that book was incredible. So I'm very excited for that, just conceptually. I think if they do a good job adapting that book, I think it's great. I'm excited.

I mean, I'm very much enjoying James Gunn's DC. So from the, from Creature Commandos to Superman, like TV, film. Like, I think so far I'm very satisfied. Marvel. Yeah, where's your Do you check the countdown clock every single day? I don't. I don't know Jack about Doomsday. I'm like out.

It's not that I'm out. What about the Vision show? I'm very excited about that. Super curious. Of course I'm super curious about what that'll be. Because I think they are what I. Oh, and let me be clear, I loved Wonder Man. I felt Wonder Man was terrific in a way that I was like, do this.

Just don't worry about the larger story or the multivor. or the this or that, just tell me a story about characters. Give me a slice of life. And I really appreciate it also that it was like out of work, struggling actors in Hollywood. Like so much of it rang true. Trying to do a self-tape.

Oh my God. It was so good. And I think he's dynamite. A little like strip malls that they were going to. I was like, oh, incredible. A new L.A. resident. Joey Panser's house. Yeah. Oh, my God. So funny. And I thought he was so good.

Yahia or Yahya. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I thought he was so good. And then flip, I'm watching him now in the Man on Fire series, which is he's incredible in that in a completely different lane. I thought he was fantastic in ambulance. I think he's great. But like the one-two punch in this year of Wonder Man and Man on Fire are incredible.

This guy is fantastic. Because Wonder Man is so, he was so stealthily, like, funny. Yes. You know, like how seriously he took himself was so funny. And then I imagine Man on Fire is not a laugh a minute. Not at all. It's just an action, shoot-em-up, you know. It's based on the movie.

It's, you know, it's a prequel for the Denzel character in that movie. And it's fantastic. In that way that, like, all of the uncle shows that I watch, your boss is, your, you're justified, you're, you know, all those shows that I, you're, I will shout out the best show on television that nobody's watching or talking about. I don't think you guys would cover it, but I'm still shocked that the watch isn't covering it. is Dark Wind, is the Tony Hillerman books is unreal. I think this show is.

Zon McLarenin is unbelievable. Yeah. That single episode of Westworld, I was like, what the fuck. Akeeta, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of his stuff in Fargo, unreal. And this show, he is exceptional. Yeah. And should be winning every award if awards mattered, which they don't.

Right. But he is electric to watch in this show. And the show is phenomenal. Which season was Robert Redford showed up for like... Him and George R. Martin are in a prison cell in season three at the beginning of season three. Yeah, yeah. It's great. That show, I think, is a absolutely phenomenal watch and a world that is just every season they are excavating more and more of these stories and more and more of these characters.

And it is. And servicing a procedural kind of, you know, who done it every time. And it's awesome. make Chris and Andy talk about it These fucking idiots They had the power They started with that show Did they? Yeah, yeah, yeah

I don't know if they kept up with it But I know they started it What would feel worse if they hadn't started Or they hadn't told you By the way The latter Because it took me a couple of years To get Chris to watch Shorzy

I recommended it so many times Because of sports I was like I think you'd like this It's sports Have you heard of sports? This show does it but Canadian Jason, thank you so much. This was such a treat.

Such a pleasure. This is one of my absolute favorite shows. I listen to you guys. I spend so many hours a week with you both in my ears. It is truly absolutely wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me. Here's my last question for all of us. Lamar Morris, Emmy winner, Lamar Morris.

Fantastic in this. Jake Johnson, incredible in the Spider-Verse movies. What is Max Greenfield's? to round out you know, the new girl which Peter should he be. Which spider project is for him?

That's a great question. Boy. Hobbiton dragons and Gmail.com. Yeah. Sony are you listening? Yeah. Cast him. Let's figure it out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He deserves. He'd be great. Yeah, he would. Oh, yeah. Thank you, Jason. You're the best. I'm back soon.

And thank you not only to Jason, obviously, for being such a wonderful guest today. What it treats us was. Thank you to the rest of the crew. Carlos, Scott, Jacob, C.T. Arjuna, Jomey, the whole gang helping us out as always. We will be back next week for an already out of date, but still sincerely enthusiastic, 2006 summer hype meter. Joe will have a Lestat primer and a fictional musical band's episode.

It's more of like a fictional band's episode. Less Lestat primer, more. A very musical house of our. Priming you for the mood of watching Sam Reed as Lestat. Correct. Sing while covered in scars on stage. Correct. And we'll be talking about. Did you go to the concert? It's, no. No, next week, right? Oh, oh, it hasn't happened yet. Okay, okay.

She'll be there in spirit. I will. She'll be there in spirit. All right, come back soon. Can't wait. It's too big to hold with one hand. That's what she... You know what this is?

Exactly. It's the people who do the memes about like, they read a line from Romanticy, and it's like, it was so big. I couldn't hold it in one hand. And then they're holding like a jar of pickles, and it's like that can't... That's not a thing.

That's what this water bottle is like. And then the... the straw is not soft and supple. It's like really hard. Okay, now it's trending back to romanticcy. Isn't it always? The soft, supple straw. That's how it should be.

I wrap my lips around this soft, supple straw. It's rock hard and not in a good way. But by the way, what? Karma. Not karma. I think, I think, I think, I think Joanna's water ball just came. Time comes for us all.

Joanna's water ball is so horny from your water bottle. What did what happened? Wow. This is what House of ours all about. Can someone come help, please? This is in the show, right? This better all be in the show. This can be the stinger.