House of R - 'Squid Game' Season 3, Episodes 1-3 Reactions

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Mal and Jo are back for some more life-or-death games in ‘Squid Game’ Season 3! They break down the first three episodes by discussing the characters and relationships they were most invested in, as well as the emotional moments, surprising twists, and meaningful deaths. (00:00) Intro(00:53) ‘Project Hail Mary’ trailer reaction(12:55) ‘Squid Game’(41:12) Characters we’re invested in(49:48) Relationships we’re invested in(01:01:24) Most meaningful death(01:13:07) Most intriguing commentary(01:24:20) What’s the deal with the VIPs?(01:29:36) Most emotional moment(01:37:07) Most surprising twist(01:38:42) Most harrowing game Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna RobinsonProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and John RichterSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. and Rip are back in a new series. Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. So, welcome back to House of Our. I'm Joanna Robinson. That is Mallory, Rubin, and we are here today to talk to you about Squid Game.

Season 3. Mallory? Hide, hide, it's time to play. Don't let your hair give you away. I don't think that was the tune, but it's a spirit. Really upsetting. Thanks so much for that. Yeah. Hello.

Hello. Hello. We're here mostly to talk to you about Squid Game. I've got two orders of business before we get into our Squitty-gamey stuff. filming. And before we even do our what's coming up and all that sort of stuff. Real quick nerd business here at the top. Number one, one of our shared most anticipated films of next year, dropped a trailer, Project Tail Mary.

thrilling. You and I lost our shit. I will say Mallory had previously lost her shit just over the poster. And then the trailer trailer. Yeah. So without, you know, this is a book that we both really, really loved. We've talked about it before. Without spoiling anything for folks or whatever,

I just want to get your temp check on your excitement level now that you've seen the trailer for Project Hail Mary. As high as it could possibly be. Like, will this be number one in next year's House of Our Hype Draft? And then I have to remind myself of, like, the other things that are coming out next year. What a crowded field is going to be. I love this book. I thought that the trailer was pitch perfect in terms of giving us all of the tone, like that blend of the type of adventure story it is, the stakes of the mission, the fate of

humanity, the different characters. Obviously, this is not only like a Ryan Gosling starring vehicle, but a Lord and Miller film, so you know the ability to land the human. humor inside of this spectacular circumstance is going to be on point. I'm not surprised, but I was still thrilled to see that. And then for anyone who doesn't want to watch the trailer and doesn't want to go like into the movie with any part of the story spoiled for them, I will speak in the vaguest terms possible here, but I would just say I was not anticipating that the end of the trailer would center on what it did, which is a part of the story that I love more than like

most things that have entered my life in the past half decade. And I actually was like moved to tears. I'd say I was like, there it is. I love it. I love it. You and I were both surprised that this element was introduced in the trailer. I was telling you that, because when you posted the poster in our group chat and Van, as this is, did a contrarian, like, I'm not going to, whatever this is, I'm not going to pay attention to do it.

And then later I was talking about the phone, I was like, you're going to love Project Tailman. Like, you're going to love this. You should read the book. You should do the, he loves an audiobook. I was like, you should do the audio book. I think the audiobook is one of the most extraordinary audiobook experiences I've ever had. I haven't listened to it. I'll have to give it.

Maybe that's how I'll revisit it before the film. Should I should check out the audiobook? Yeah, kind of because of that element that we're talking about is just done really really well in audio. And so I was trying to talk around that for Van. And then I was like, oh, then they just put it in the trailer. So I was like, I don't know how to describe this, you, Van. There's a big spoiler. I don't know what to talk about.

And then they're just like, this is the premise of the movie. So I'm like, okay. Which I think in some ways is a shame just because it is such an incredible thing to stumble upon. But also I think is kind of good and like welcome and everybody trying to sit on what a huge thrust of the story is for that long. Might be bad. And also now you can just lean in and how the film is marketed to this wonderful element. I can't fucking wait for this movie. It's soon. March is soon. March will be here before we know it. I know. Very excited. Yeah. So this is Lorda Miller, as you said, who we love, of course, based on Andy Weir book. Andy Weir also wrote The Martian among other things. And so for me, the moment of the trailer, other than what happens at the end, there's a sort of like that camp POV on the ship sort of diary moment that is very the Martian that I'm just like really excited to see.

Ryan Gosling, El Goncito, have his time with that. So anyway, I'm very, very excited. We're both very, very excited. I really, really recommend. This is not Ringervorverse Recommends. This is just an episode of House of Ar. But we both really, really recommend the book. I listen to it, Mallory read it.

Either way, you're going to have a blast with it. But, like, this is just, you got to. Yeah. You got to. It's the best. You have to. Okay. The other thing, before we get into Squid Game Stuff, is we got an email from our

listener, Anna, who is going to her first Comic-Con. Oh. Not San Diego Comic-Con. Okay. So can we say that we're going to San Diego Comic-Con? Didn't you tweet it already? Oh, okay. Well, I don't know that I said, like, I said I'm going.

Okay. Okay, yeah, I sure did tweet it and didn't check with anyone. Anyway, we're going to be in San Diego Comic-Col. I'll be going for the first time ever. I've never been to say it. I've been to New York Comic-Con. I've been to a Philadelphia Comic-Con. Yeah.

I have never had the pleasure of going to San Diego Comic-Con. delighted. I can't wait. I did wait until we booked our hotels before I tweeted it. But anyway, we have our hotels, but we're going. We'll be there. Havasandragons to Demo.com. If you have tips for Mallory and how to navigate San Diego Comic-Con, I have been a bunch of times, but not since COVID,

and I hear things feel a little different post-COVID. So I'm excited to see what the new Comic-Con feel is. But we got to listen from an email from a listener, Anna, who's going to the Montreal Comic-Con. And she has a costume in mind. I'll talk about that in a second. But first and foremost, her question is she said, The Hobbits plus Andy Circus will be there.

Okay. So Elijah, Sean, Billy, etc. are going to be there. Dom, which, if you could pick one, Andy Circus or the Four Hobbits, if you could pick one to have a photo with. Because those photos, they can stack up. They're costly.

So, like, you had to invest in one photo, with one of these five fine gentlemen, who would you pick? Molly Rubin. Oh, my God. This is a, this is torturous. This is, is it possible to make the appeal that in the spirit of fellowship, it could be a group photo or is that a violation of the prompt? Okay.

Hmm. I mean, I guess it would just have to be Sam. That's, you and I are on the same page. It is so clearly Sean Ashton. It's so clearly Sam. And then this is the added info that I didn't even have when I read this section of the email, but I already said, Sean As in my head. Anna is dressing as Rosie Cotton.

She's got beautiful curly hair. Come on, then. She's coming as Rosie Cotton. So she's got to, Sean Aston, Sam Wise. It's got to be, right? It's a must. I just finished watching season two of Stranger Things. So Sean Austin's on my mind, of course.

But he's always on my mind. Also, if you want to email me, hobbitson,dragues at gmail.com, us at Hobbes and Draggers Gmail.com. I was making my standard argument to our beloved colleagues, Kai Grady and Rob Mahoney, that people who enjoy crushes on gentlemen go through these phases of life and there's the young Legolas phase, there is an older Aeron phase, and then you graduate to Sam Wise Gamji. And Rob said it's only me who feels that way about Sam Wise. Gimdy, and I just do not think that that is the case.

So if you disagree, he's like, he's like, Eragornis-Farver, I was like, I don't disagree with that. Vigo is eternal. Like, I'm not disagree with that. But like, Sam matters. A lot, not just to me. Certainly. Havasandragons at Gmail.com. If you want to tell Rob that he's wrong about that,

I wouldn't mind it. Anything else? Anna, you have your mission. It addresses Rosie Cotton. Pose of Sean Asson. Then, of course, obviously, send us a photo of that, please. Naturally, yeah. Anything else before we get into Squid Game and General Pod Business?

I don't think so. Okay. What a joy, what a delight to see you as always. We're here to talk about the first three episodes of Squid Game season three, which is only six episodes total. So we're going to talk about one through three today, and then we will be wrapping up our coverage later this week. So we're here to talk about keys and knives, the starry night, and it's not your fault. some truly harrowing episodes of television that we watched that we heard to talk to you about. So you can see, you can get the rest of Good Game Season 3 from us later this week. Next week we're doing Back to the Future.

Anniversary, rewatch, exciting. And also Inception. Hot Noll in summer continues the pace. I got my shooting script, the Inception Shooting script here. Very exciting. Um, really excited to talk about that, a film that I love. Same. The Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, are covering Iron Heart, Jurassic World, and a Superman versus

Fantastic for Midnight Court. That episode's been like we've drawn a little bit, but I think it's coming. I think it's coming soon. Malloryman, how can folks keep track of all of this great stuff that we're covering? Here's what I would recommend. Follow the pods. Follow House of R. Follow the Ring Reverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

you can watch full video episodes of Hasevar and Midnight Boys on Spotify. And you can also watch us on the Ringervverse YouTube channel. So follow along there as well. You can also follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. While you're at your phones in your hand, you're at your computer, send us your emails, whether they're about a Comic-Con plan for a photo op or anything else. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The inbox is open. us your squid game thoughts before our second pod this week. Send us your back to the future anniversary thoughts, your inception thoughts. Get ahead on your Superman and Fantastic Four thoughts.

We're, what are we? Let's see. Just a touch more than a month away if memory serves from our Buffy experience beginning. Yes. Yes. So send us your Buffy thoughts on season one. It's just hot a hot out. House of our summer is continuing a pace. And we're having a blast. We're having a blast. I'm really excited. Like, Hot Nolan Summer is so good. The Stranger Things rewatch has been so good. It's delightful.

Over here in my household. This Back to the Future episode, though we're not exactly 100% sure what the full shape of it is. Back to the Future is one of the best films of all time. So it's like going to be a great time. I can't wait. I can't wait. It's generous, generous spin to say not 100% sure. I would say we're zero percent sure.

I have an idea. I just haven't pitched it to you yet. It's going to be fun. Multiple rewatch pods. next week. What a blast. What a moment for nostalgia. And, you know, again, like, we're seeing Superman. In days. It's July 1st. Right now, that movie comes out in a week and a half. What a time should be us. Can't wait. Can't wait. I think, I think beginning, it was yesterday, right, that I started sending you your daily Nicholas Holtz from the Superman press store. I have too many options today. I just need to narrow it down to one.

No, don't. And then I will send to you. Send them on. But the Nick Holt, bleached hair, Lex Luthor, social media stuff is top tier. Okay. Spoiler warning for today. Yes. All of Squid Game through Season 3 episode 3. Yes.

So we are not talking about the back half of the season. If you're like, hey, man, I spent all weekend watching The Bear. I haven't had a chance to finish Squid Game. Don't worry. It's only the first half. So up through episode 3 is what we'll be talking about today. We'll be talking about some things we're looking forward to. in the back half, but no spoilers for what's in the back half of the season.

Anything else you want to say on the spoiler front? I don't think there's anything else to be planned to spoil. I don't think so. No. Okay. Let's do our general discussion before we have some questions we want to ask about Squid Game Season 3. If you're sitting here to say, hey, man, I don't know you covered Squid Game before.

I'm here to tell you that it's been a little bit of a ride through our Squid Game coverage here to four on the Ringer. What a great platform for podcasts. Mallory and I covered season one together on the Prestige TV podcast feed. And we were brand new to podcasting full-time together. Yeah. So if you want to hear the beginnings of our podcast relationship, you can go back and listen to our season one coverage of Squid Game on the Prestige TV feed.

Rob Mahoney and I, you know, fell on the sword of the holiday Squid Game coverage at the end of last year. So December of last year, we covered season two on the prestige feed, Rob and I. And then Mallory and I are wrapping it up here on House of Mar. What could be easier? What could be simpler than to spread the coverage of one show across multiple hosts and multiple feeds? But here we are on House of Ars. Our own many-legged pentathlon-esque team up.

It's great. That's true. So to refresh anyone who didn't listen to our season one Preston, Paz or the prestige pod that I did with Rob, et cetera. What is your

Mallory relationship to Squid Game? I'm a fan. I am a fan. We've, you know, touched on this a bit on House Variety

in hype drafts and hype meters both. I had Squid Game season two quite high on my winter. I believe, you know,

we always decide in real time what a season means. So it's hard to then later on, remember exactly which season it was, but it must have been

winter. height meter. That was quite high on my height meter for last winter. And then I selected, I actually selected season three in my hype draft. Yes. Was a selection that was rejected by my fellow drafters in real time, but that's okay. I thought season one like many people was, you know, exceptional. It just wowed me. And it was actually really fun because I wasn't potting about season two. I did not re-watch or revisit season one before watching season two. And so it was really fun now multiple years later to go back and like refresh myself on the first trip into the game and the first season of the show, which is really wonderful. I think I was slightly higher on season two than some, though, certainly had my notes on it as well.

And I think that the splitting of seasons two and three was obviously, we kind of speculated about this in the period at the end of season two and then in the period between season two and season three. But I think, you know, definitively clear was a mistake. Obviously, this is just like the stretching of this story. Even with the seasons airing, you know, with a much shorter gap between them than seasons one and two, just would have been better to put this all out at once and in a shorter episode total. But I'm excited to dive in back into the arena with you today and excited for today's pod to discuss the first three episodes. And looking forward to resuming our chat at the end of the week, I will tease that the episode in not just season three, but seasons two and three that I'm highest on is in this batch of episodes. So that's a positive for today's chat. There's, I think, a real banger in the mix of these three that we have today here.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot that this is the pacing, which is what you're getting at between season two and three. It really feels like at some points they're quite stretching and not have enough to do. And then in some cases, it just feels extremely concentrated and unrelenting, not in a negative way necessarily, but in an overwhelming way. I did text you and Arjuna that episode two, I think the word I used was like harrowing. Yeah. And then, like, as per usual, Detective Mallory got on the case, and you're like, I think it's because of this. And I want to be like, actually, yes, that does happen, but that's not why. But just a lot happens in episode two. That's the episode that I'm referring to. I thought that was like in a painful and deeply unpleasant way, which is, you know, to the show's credit. Really an extraordinary episode of television. And I think in many ways, the spiritual successor to season one, episode six,

the fabled Marbles episode, which is my favorite episode of season one. So, yeah, I'm excited to talk about that one today and just in general, all of our other prompts. What are you? Where are you with your squid game journey without, and obviously, like, we're not accounting for how we feel about, you know, where we'll circle back later this week on the second pot about how we feel about how this whole journey has concluded. So these thoughts are like slightly truncated until we get to consider the conclusion of the

show, certainly. But where are you with the squid game experience? I will say, just up through season. through episode three. Yeah. Episode two is extremely just jam-packed with a lot of things,

but I will say, and we'll get to this in some of our questions, but the characters that I was most invested in are gone now. And, yeah,

which is not to say I'm not invested in Gihun, but, like, Gihun, our main character sort of felt like he had his arc in season one and it was extremely satisfying and though I'm not opposed to him being at the center of things here in season two and three

and I found particularly like the dynamic between Gihun and Inho the frontman when he was undercover, I thought all of that stuff was very juicy in season two but I'm not on tenter hooks about Gihun the way that I was about a number of other characters who have just been wiped off the board Now, this is Squid Game.

And, you know, you referenced the Marbles episode in season one. In the Marbles episode in season one, there was a lot of profound loss of, but I think I had more still to be invested in after that. And this I felt like, oh no, all my favorite characters are gone. Like, what am I going to do? So I still have some things that I'm interested in in the back third, but that is like a, the back three. But that was just a sort of like a pacing question of like, am I still on? the hook the way you want me to be for what you have remaining to tell inside of this story. So if I were to rank the seasons, I would rank them one, two, three. Like, one is the best.

Two, I had a lot going for it. And three, this second episode is just very memorable. But again, at the end of the day, I left my, like, when I fired up episode three, and then it even inside of episode three things happens. But when I fired episode three, I was like, God, what am I going to focus on now? And then, like, even more people left, and I was like, okay, all right, here we go. So that's sort of where I am. On the sort of squid game phenomenon front, it's been really interesting to track. Obviously, season one was like just an insane smash-hole hit, changed the way that Netflix thought about international programming, was part of this massive sort of Korean wave of

influx of culture to America, whether it's this or Parasite or BTS or K-pop in general or whatever it is, or the K-dramas that have become extremely popular. I have an aunt who just, like, only wants to talk to you about the K-dramas that she is watching on Netflix. She's a huge fan. So that it's, you cannot overstate how influential the first season one, first season was. And, you know, one, six Emmys was just like this absolute sensation. We talked about at the time, and I thought it was really interesting that it was way more

popular in America than it was in Korea. And based on what research I've done via American and Korean outlets, it seems like over time, you know, obviously the Korean audience is not a monolith, but I think they've warmed a bit more to Squid Game than perhaps they felt in season one. And so there was like this massive parade of goodbye for Scud Game and Seoul this last week and stuff like that. So I think it has become more of a thing than it was in season one necessarily. But conversely, what's interesting for, I would say, probably predominantly American audiences voting on rotten tomatoes. Though actually, I don't know how international the rotten tomatoes is. Our good old friend rotten tomatoes and imperfect metric. We always like to talk about how imperfect it is.

But there's been this like significant audience, the popcorn meter as Mallory likes to articulate the audience score has been in a bit of a free fall. Yeah. From 84% in season one to down to 63% in season two and 66% in season three. Now, that percentage, I think, is holistically of like the entire season. So again, we'll talk about sort of the final three episodes of season three. And also, it's early. Plenty of people haven't had a chance to watch Squid Game season three yet.

So once that number hits a certain point, I feel like it's hard. either direction. If it's very high, it's hard for it to be pulled too low over time. And similarly, if it's, if it's dancing around the divide between fresh and rotten, it's, you know, enough people watch Netflix shows when they drop as binges at that, I would have to assume that the voting mass there makes it hard for that number to move too heavily. But I am not a statistician. Let's add that to the list of things that we are not. On the impover, imperfect metric front. We routinely cite the, as you noted, the tomato meter and popcorn meter alike there.

But another imperfect metric, but something that can be kind of like, especially I think if you're looking to like corroborate a metric that is appearing in one of these public voting forums, the IMDB episode ratings similarly are like very flawed, obviously, and are not necessarily indicative and often are subject to some sort of. Review bombing. So, like, to all of those caveats issued, I will say to your point, and we will definitely, we'll come back to this, obviously, in our second pod later in the week. The number, it's like the, okay, high for the second episode, pretty good, pretty good. Craters. Falls off a cliff. Oh, no.

For the end of the season. So, like, I think that, you know, again, this will be good for us to circle back to in a couple of days. We'll talk about this more. I think clearly it seems that the way that the season, and thus, because this is marketed as the final season, this show or at least this version of the show in this form, it's Netflix, nobody believes or has ever believed

that this will be the end of this IP. It's just not going to happen. That people are like, I think, feeling a certain way about the back half of the season. So we'll come back to that on our Thursday pod. Something that Rob and I talked about a bit when we covered season two, and I wanted to get in with you here,

is the very clear intentional parallels between the story. Obviously, Gihun, our main character, as played by Li Zheng Jay, the fact that he is back in the games, back in the games with his same number. Of course, that is something that is going to be consistent across the seasons.

But there are just a bunch of elements that feel like intentional repetition. of the previous season, whether it's the return of a literal same game, whether it's once again someone undercover as player number one, whether it's the friend from back home inside of the game,

the voting process, the young female defector from North Korea, this wholly fixated on a missing family member. Do these similarities, are they interesting to you in a, we're all stuck in the, the same cycle or human nature same as it ever was, which is certainly something that the show is interested in, or compare, contrast, the slight differences inside of these larger same-same

situations, or does it feel sort of repetitive on an IP sort of rinse and repeat kind of way? How do you feel? So I think all of the above, like this is a real, for me, more than one thing is true at once and I'm of two minds that were with myself, all the bits that you love. Because I think that, and I think that this will definitely come up as we hit some of our particulars when we discuss these three episodes, the rest of the pod. I think that there feels, to me, like a difference here between almost like assessing the intellectual exercise of returning to a lot of those elements and then how compelling it is to watch that as a television show, right? So I'm actually quite intrigued philosophically as a study in human nature to those points about putting our protagonists and our antagonists back in either the same or a similar situation with deliberate tweaks and then seeing, obviously, the pathway to returning to the game is quite distinct, but seeing what changes, seeing when people make different. different decisions, seeing how the individual bonds and relationships and dynamics that emerge,

seeing how something like the distinction in, if the player's vote to leave, they can, in seasons two and three in that game, take the money that they've made up to that point. And you have like the instinct to think, okay, well, that makes them more likely to leave. And then, of course, it's the opposite, right? And I think, like, things like that are fascinating, actually. And so as a premise, I think it's really smart, undeniably. I think, like, sure, person to person, you will have variance in the opinion here, but I would say almost inarguably, it has robbed the second and third seasons of that almost like amorphous and tangible quality of the first season, which was, sure, a lot of it was about the political and social commentary, the excellent

performances, the inventive nature of the specific rendering. the like really fucked up in a great like wallops you in the jaw way of taking these, the trappings of your youth, the innocent time in your life and perverting them in this fucked up context. And it was shocking, right? It was shocking to watch season one. Like it was riveting and you were wrapped and it's Netflix and it's a binge. So everybody just went episode to episode to episode and nobody could stop. But also, like, you kind of watch it from a state of awe. And I think the second and third seasons just are robbed of that element to a certain degree because inherently that element of surprise is gone. So, yeah, it's like, you know, I think, again, like the mileage varies element to element on when it's been really interesting to see what changes.

Like, it feels to me like a comp you could make is when this will, I'm sure not be the only time one of us invokes Survivor. But, like, season after season, Survivor is the same show. with deliberate tweaks. You change something about an advantage or something about the tribe breakup or when do they swap, et cetera. And it's like,

we're two seasons away from season 50. Season 49 is next to that season 50. It's like, we're on season 50 of people not only being okay with that, but being like, give me more, make the episodes longer. I can't wait for the next one. So it's not like that's an impossible thing

for that to work, but I think when it is like the key element or such a key element to why it groped so many people in the first place. It's just a little bit diluted when you're running so many things back. Yeah, and I think also an unfortunate side effect of that, season one, to your point, was such a surprise and then such a sort of adrenaline-fueled binge that you don't even really have time to stop and think about necessarily some of these elements, and especially in splitting the two seasons, I would say.

So we have even more time to sort of marinate in our thoughts about this. I feel like you start to see this seams of what feels like almost what's the cruelest math we can do in any of these given scenarios. And there are ways in which that can be thrilling. Like I found the season two set piece of the, I forget what it's specifically called, but sort of like the merry-go-round running into the rooms. Yeah, the mingle one. Yeah. I thought that was riveting. I thought that's like one of the best things the show has ever done.

Same. Yeah. And then when we get to episode two, which is, you know, what you and I have been highlighting in this section, which is this horrible hide-and-seek, there's math involved in terms of like, I have to kill someone in order to survive. We need all three keys in order to do this. Who are our allies, who are our enemies, you know, did we swap a key for a knife? What did we do here?

All that sort of stuff like that is once again. just like cruelty math. And cruelty math that is often telegraphed. If at the beginning of an episode, we have mother and son have a meaningful talk about, you know, what they'll do on the other side of this. And you're like, well, we're not making it through. What's the cruelest way we could not both make this through? Or my favorite character, Jun, like, making one foot over the threshold. and then I'm like, well, that's curtains for that character.

You know what I mean? So, like, a lot of the stuff is telegraphed. A lot of his stuff is feels sort of like someone took a schematic and wrote down, like, what's the nastiest thing we could do to people inside of this episode? And I'm not, you know, as a blanket statement against that. I just didn't feel the same sort of overwhelm. I'm just a passenger on this crazy ride feeling that I felt in season one, which is similarly constructed in the Marbles episode, et cetera, of just sort of like,

How can I, when you're watching the Marvel episode in season one, you're like, I care so much about these two characters and only one of them is going to be able to make it. Yeah. Like, yeah, you just feel claustrophobic and, you know, I mean, hopefully you're feeling claustrophobic the whole time because you're in this like horrifying bunker situation and people are dying everywhere. But even more so. So, you know, all of that is. I feel very mixed. I feel super mixed on these two seasons of Squid Game. And I'm not upset with the experience, and I don't feel like they shouldn't have done it.

But I do think it slightly dilutes the potency of season one to have these slight stumbles here in season two and three. That makes sense. Yeah. Yep. Anything else you want to say on the survivor front, I just watched a bunch of Survivor. over the weekend, because as you know, as we're coping from surgery. So I'm, like, in my survival mode,

but obviously, like, the idea of the various alliances and losing people to one side or another, someone who's been wearing the red X is now wearing the blue O, and you were like, oh, we lost another one. Anything you want to say as one of the preeminent survivor scholars of our day about that, how that influences the way you watch Squid Games. Thank you for that charitable setup. I don't know if I'd go that far. I would say an enthusiast.

A scholar, maybe, certainly about handsome players over the course of the season. You gave you a whole lecture about the way in which their hair goes from gross to then, like, hits this other level where it becomes the most glossy, beautiful, made. I am really, like, awed by that. And a season or two ago, an F1 driver, George Russell, I don't know if he was inspired by Survivor. I believe he was inspired by his supermodel girlfriend

who told him to do this if I'm remembering my Instagram Reels content correctly. But he used the summer break in the F1 season to not wash his hair for, you know, like a couple weeks and then let it just emerge luscious and frankly astonishing. You should Google George Russell's hair. It's amazing on the other end of it.

And I was like, this is just they did the Survivor. Wow. Wow. Has this shortened Survivor season impact? in this interesting hair transformation I'll have to think about that I don't believe

it has just because it's that time frame for when your hair hits the other side it's still contained in the shorter season I wonder if the thing that's been more impacted by the shift down from 39 days is the likelihood that like one of

their myriad mosquito bites festers and turns noxious and they have to be like medically evacuated from the show because of a spider bite or something that turned too. Medical evacuations have gone down. Yeah. Yeah, that has been, even though seasons two and three have been on the whole less successful than season one, I haven't really enjoyed. And obviously, this was very actively centered not only in, and, you know, again, we're lumping together seasons two and three because even though they're not labeled as such they are clearly one. season. This was really central to how, like, the, the, heading into season two, the setup was

discussed and marketed and presented. The centering of the voting and that element of, like, you're wearing your vote on your chest and tracking which characters are standing pat and which characters are moving in and out of the different voting pools and why, and then whether their alliance if somebody votes outside of the majority inside of a group, forget the majority overall, will welcome them back and understand that. I think has been fascinating. We'll talk more about the VIPs later today. A little teaser. Did not love the VIPs doing the like meta, let's pat ourselves on the back here by saying that the voting has been more compelling to watch than the games. Because it's like, first of all, I could do with basically without everything we got with the

VIPs. The VIPs could have been gone this season and would not have been a problem for me. Which is, I have to say, like, I missed them in season two. You were excited for the return. Yeah, I was really excited for the return because I think that that element of super heightened voyeuristic horror, like, who is the game for? The fact that there are these people who, you know, and obviously at the end of season one, we get that conversation between the chairman, between the head of the game, the host, player one. Number one. And Yihun about this idea that, like, it was created for these investors and this group of the exceedingly wealthy to then watch the less fortunate, the people who have been

either failed by society or left behind or had made one bad decision or maybe repeated bad decisions and then were sent into this hell pit to fight to make money at the end so that they could try to move forward. And like in season one, there's player 456 is like not sharing the money, right? Yeah. He wins and that's it. So like the fact that there are these people who sit in masks and drink liquor and wear bath robes and prop their feet up on other human beings. beings and fly their choppers into watch the game. I just thought was such a brilliant little ingredient of who this is for why it happens. And then it kind of opens your mind to like, well, what is the extent of that appetite, right? This was not what I was looking for on the

return, though. We'll come back to that. But I thought this was just a huge miss. And the role has expanded so substantially that it is really a demerit, I think, for this season. At first, when they show up and they're on, like, cleanup crew inside of the game, I'm like, that's interesting, but then that's not

it's not a really an added element. It's an added moment, but it doesn't become, like, an added element. Yes. Yeah, the VIP's a real, real tough. I think of, in terms of the parallels, but then the tweaks,

I think taking Inho, the frontman, and making him sort of, like, first of all, even though it was a repeat of season one, and even though I think Gihon is such an idiot for not considering that player number one might once again be a mole from the inside. But to the Survivor Comp point, Joe, could this be, it reminded me of, I won't use the cast member names so as to not spoil the result of a recent Survivor season for anyone who's listening. but like reminded me of the conversation we were having this weekend about these two players who played together. Yes. Could they, what will they do when they're playing together again? Will they assume? So maybe this was like the, oh, he couldn't. Surely he will, he will say there's no way they could infiltrate in the same.

In the same exact number again. Yeah. But they did. But that being said, you know, and this, and it's one of the best, I think, performances on the show, but... Easily my favorite, yeah. Him being someone who won before. Yes.

And his mission seemingly to be to prove to Gihon and then to himself that Gihon is no better than he is. And that anyone, even the virtuous, now virtuous Gihon would break. Because this is just human nature. And if it's human nature, then I don't have to feel bad about it. It is just what humans do. that sort of personal reason, rather than this sort of sociological intellectual,

isn't it fun to see poor people behave badly? This man who we learn information in season two about why he entered the game in the first place, but his personal stake in the moral dissolution of a character. Yes. Which we see, you know, in miniature in episode two, when Giehoun is chasing down and, de ho, and like successfully eliminating.

And, you know, and it's just sort of like... The frontman's watching every second of that from his monitor, and that's what he's tracking the entire fourth game. So that is an example of same, same, but different in a way that I think is so juicy. And I don't think every element was as successful as that, but there are ways in which you could do the same same, but a slight twist on it and have me on the edge of my seat

and sort of really invest in. Definitely. Anything else you want to say before we get into our squids positions, which is what I'm calling? This sort of questions to ask ourselves here. Let's dive in. I'm ready. All right.

So moving out of season two, which again, you were a little bit higher on than I was. Moving out of season two into season three, was there a character you were most invested in coming into? season three? You just talked about them, the front man. Yeah.

I, first of all, just have a really big crush. So handsome. It's just unbelievable. So I think it's like, we're going to shift in a second here from single character to relationships. And so I actually won't linger on this long

because the relationship between the front man and Guyhoon is easily the thing that I was thinking about the most coming out of season two and also coming out of season one and then heading into season two and then coming out of season two and heading into season three. So I'll chat about that more in a second. But obviously just on the character level, with the frontman, you have everything you just outlined, his own personal history, history of loss, history is a winner. Then a person who decides to stay in this experience, move up the ranks. And it's not only this bit of psychological, almost existential warfare between Inho and Gihun, but then also, of course, we have an extra additional, incredibly central relationship that the show is oriented around the brothers, right?

So, yeah. How successful is that, is that brother relationship for you? That to me is probably the best example of thing I felt really invested in coming out of season one heading into the continuation of the show. They're incredible confrontation at the end of season one. Unbelievable. Like obviously the shot to the shoulder to knock him over the edge, the choice not to kill his brother. And then we open season two. And it's like, you know, okay.

He was rescued. He was taken back to shore. He was set and put in the hospital. Like, he's okay. He's going to, like, start this search. Will he, will he find the island? Will he find his brother? What will that conflict look like?

Like, that's high on the list of things that I was, like, most interested in heading back into the story. And I think that, um, while I actually have found our beloved Mr. Joy quite comedically hilarious across two and three, just great. I just think that the very deeply protracted nature of the boat search in both two and then to this point and three for Junho has been a real letdown. I care about that relationship still, but the way that we're pursuing that clash has just like it's so samey episode. episode after episode. It really is. And I also think, I think it was pretty obvious early on that Captain Park was a rat.

And so that, like, when you draw something like that out for so long, you make the character look stupid. The audience is so far ahead of the character. It's so aggravating that he is not only, like, not figuring out for himself, but not even listening when other people are floating it as a possibility. You know, this is very frustrating. I was just like, my dude. Dude.

Something is going on here. I would like to talk to you about it over a late night snack and some booze. And I think like, you know, your point for a few minutes ago about like, should Gihun have maybe been more suspicious of this very dramatically, like suddenly we have the key vote and we are introducing our plant as player one again. Right. I think it's totally fair. that did not sap for me, though, my enjoyment of watching them interact in season two,

which was such a highlight for me. I just loved, and in part because both performers are just spectacular. Their energy together is incredible. I really would recommend everybody catch up on your pods with Rob on Prestige for Season 2, where you guys got into some of the shipping that's out there. The Internet, you know, has really come through. I really feel like that was my like, I got so Hannibal-pilled because I really do think that that actor looks like the Korean Mads-Mickleson, which is just a huge compliment to both men, extremely handsome.

And so I was just like, got in my Hannibal head about it. It's great. It's great. It's there. It's all there. Guy-Hoon, who we love and are rooting for, to be clear, repeatedly makes ill-advised decisions or misses something. A huge part of these first three episodes is this state of absolute, like, catatonic state-inducing despair that he finds himself in. After the uprising failed, his dear friend is dead, but also everyone who participated in this is dead.

The way that De Ho and the cotton, like the, obviously just them chasing each other, trying to kill each other in hide-and-seek is so deeply upsetting to watch. But, like, there's this moment where we've got notes for everyone. And mostly, of course, we should say, who was actually. at fault, the people in charge of the game, of course. But there is that part of you watching when you're like, and Dejo is saying, this was actually like your fault and you're playing back the end of season two, not the very end, but like the decision, the strategic impetus for the uprising, will hide. We will actually let people on Team Red X vote to go, die.

We won't attack the other side first so that we can be ready to take the guns when the soldiers come in, and of course, that like electric moment then where frontman in disguise is like, oh, so you're really to make a sacrifice for the greater good? Interesting. Anyway, I raised that just to say, Gihun is a character I love, but I expect to make some mistakes and then hopefully learn from them and make better decisions in the future. Zhugeot. He was a detective. Yeah.

This is literally his profession. Yeah. So it just completely, and he's devoted years of his life to this quest and this search that all centers and hinges on this idea that, like, somebody who you thought you know could be a different person. And yet he's, like, not only missing all of the clues and the signs, but when it is brought specifically to his attention is like, this guy really, like, helps me out. This has helped me out for, like, a while. This can't be. You saved me. I know. He's my guy.

So that's just very tough. Okay. So inside of that, incredible conversation. we are going with Inho for you for character. Which character were you most invested in coming in? I have some runners up, but I'll save them for after you say your leader here. I'll say Hyunju was... Wonderful.

Because... Gehoun is our protagonist. Gehun is in the game and I am interested in invested. But Hyun Ju was like just such an interesting story. A person who has all these people looking at her, judging her, how fraught and more dangerous than the need to trust people was for her. What an incredible badass she was during the uprising at the end of season two. Unbelievable.

And then just like her loyalty, her protection, her capability, her protection, her capable. ability. Like, I just, I didn't expect her to make it to the end, but I will say that when she died in episode two, I was like, shattered. Oh, my God. We'll definitely be coming back to that. That was crushing. What I'm going to do now? My number one character that I care the most about is gone. Yeah. But I just, I just, I found her vulnerability and paired with incredible strength to be so compelling. inside of the story. And so that...

And the beauty of finding acceptance with each other and these surprising bonds that develop was just so lovely to watch. So yeah, that's my... That would have been my other pick as well. And we will be mourning together throughout the episode. No question.

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So, as just mentioned, Gihun and the frontman, I think, just the philosophical showdown that we've gotten in drips with varying degrees of awareness from the participants, right? Like, it's been the highlight of the experience for me. The limo ride at the end of season one, the, you like horse racing, you people are like. like horses, horses at a racetrack conversation before the fog is put back in. Pre-uprising in season two, what we just discussed, the like strategy and moral math that unfolds. And these, you know, veiled, but not to us watching at home with full awareness, bits of commentary that are obviously like indictments from the front. to Gihun, but also, like, to your point from earlier, a way to then absolve himself of the decisions that he has made. Like, it's just been great. And of course, like, you know, season two

ending with look closely at the consequences of your little game. And then, of course, that idea could be applied to every aspect, basically, of what we're watching. But I think that's always when the show is most successful is when, like, a big macro broad idea for the entire proposition is presented to us in miniature inside of a given character set, right? Like, that's what's most potent. The singular focus for Gheun of, like, I will return to the game to find this man. To find the front man and end this. Stop it, yeah.

Stop it. Like, has been, in terms of just the engine of bringing the show back, like, the heart of it, obviously. The watching them, again, like, just align without, you know, our person. antagonist realizing who he was aligning with. And you know, you and Rob talked about this a lot when you guys were covering season two. And I really was like in lockstep with you both. I think that one of the most satisfying parts of watching season two was, okay, I feel like something is really sincerely transpiring between these people from the front man's perspective. Yeah.

Right? And like, I love that when you're like, how much of this is real? If it is real and then the character has to rebel against it because of the, other history in his life. Like, that's even more tragic. It further heightens the despair that's already unfolding. That's been just great. And so, like, the fact that Gheun is hunting the frontman but thinks that his friend and ally, player one, is dead because of the walkie-talkie fake out.

It's just, like, heading into season three, I thought was we were really brilliantly positioned to dive back into that dynamic. and that blend of like interpersonal mixed with philosophical. Can either of them sway the other? Will they even try? Or is this just about like winning and thwarting the other person? I think has been the through line. When will Guillain find out and what will it do to him to find out? Yes.

All of that stuff. Absolutely. I will say, I think it's, I mean, I don't know why I thought there would be a distinction, but I was like, I think character investment versus relationship investment can be quite different. Yeah. But I will similarly say that, like, it's Hjunzhu, Yungshik, Kimja, and, like, basically, Gihun's alliance, but like everyone outside of him inside of his alliance.

That's my runner-up group as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think that. Juni, of course. Yeah. who I wish had been a little bit better developed beyond this girl is pregnant. But that group, which is why episode two is so tough.

And I will, you know, my next question for us is sort of like, what character are you most invested in for the final three episodes? And I will say that like with so many of my favorites off the board, I will say that a character like Myeong-yi, who is, You know, the crypto scammer, father of Junhi's baby. M.G. Coin. Like, similar to Gihon in season one where we were like, we're watching him. And, you know, probably if we stopped to think about it, we could expect we were watching a guy who was a loser with a really loose moral code find his inner best self to a certain degree by the end of SkidGames.

season one. Despite what Gihun does with Dejo inside of episode two, I'm actually not that worried or even actually that invested in his moral well-being. Perhaps I should be more so. But Myeong-yi feels like someone who I'm like, at any given time, I'm not sure. You know, and Jun-hee is constantly unsure because he will like do something and I'm like, okay, he's turned a corner and he's going to protect her. And then he does something where I'm like, know this guy sucks and she's like, wow, this guy sucks. I mean, you know, in episode two, under, you know, the influence of his own inner demons and an external goading from someone, goes on a murder spree.

Yep. And kills my favorite character. And at the same time, I'm like, can this guy get it together? I don't know. That's the question I have going forward that I'm most bizarrely interested in. And I don't know if it's because I've got that, like, broken brain. problematic fave sort of thing. That's not how I really feel about him,

but the tension for me. And Rob and I did talk about this. The tension for me is around this guy. Is this guy someone who can save him? Not necessarily, even if he survives or not, that's not the question. It's like the moral enrichment. Can he morally emerge on the other side of this experience?

Or is he doing forever to slip back into his worst instincts, you know? Similarly to what you were just saying about how heading into the season, did we think the picks for character and relationship would be different or the same? So you picked, he's your pick for character. That's my pick for the relationship that I'm most invested in for the rest of the season. Obviously, like with the acknowledgement that everything that we both just said about the front-in, Q's still an open question. So, of course, my investment in that remains intact.

But, yeah, Myeonggi and Juni and they're now present in the story, baby. That's the relationship I'm most invested in for the final three episodes of this season. And I really agree with everything that you said. I think that with MG coin, our beloved MG coin, first of all, just like, you know, again, inserting the crypto fraud like evil into the story was a great. a touch, but I think just in general, like, yeah, I'm with you the really, really well done setting up this character as a character who is, I think, constantly teetering believably on the knife's edge of making good or bad decisions, virtuous or deplorable decisions. And, um, Nambu, like, enlisting.

Myeonggi in this alliance in hide and seek, that was one of those moments where you're just watching at home, and you're like, don't do it. Right. Right. Just don't do it. And you know as soon as he agrees to that, that something horrible is going to happen.

Like it reminds me of what you were saying earlier where, like, you sort of know that you're heading toward these awful outcomes. It's the interesting thing is to watch how you get there. Yeah. Like, most of the characters we're watching are going to die in a squid game season. That's what we're watching.

That's what we're signed up to watch. The question is, like, what they learn or do or how they grow along the way or how they disappoint themselves and the people around them and us at home. So I think that, like, when Namgui was like, oh, there's not just something going on here. You love her. Right. I was like, yeah, he does. You can see it on his face, that those feelings are real, but that's an insolves.

stop him from chasing her money in season two, right? When he's like, the whole pitch for the... Yeah. And then we can... We'll have enough together to cover the deaths, right? Or obviously abandoning her and their child before then. And when she initially, when Juni initially said that she didn't want to switch teams, there's that moment where he's like, then kill me.

I'll come find you once the game begins, stab me with the knife, then you and the baby can live. And like, even though we have watched him game other people before, I like totally... totally believed in that moment that he was... I constantly believe him. Yeah. Like even that pitch you just mentioned where he's like, and then we'll have, we'll both have enough money to cover the debt. Up until that moment, I was like, this is it.

He turned the corner. He's made it to the other side. It's amazing. The seesaw. It's wild. It's been so good. Yeah. He's really good.

I think that the look of real, real love and pain in his eyes watching her nurse the baby, but then again, also like proving either out of shame for what just happen in hide and seek or doubt that she would welcome him, whatever. In Cape—he has yet to—in these episodes that we're talking about today, like, go over and see if she needs helpers. Okay, he's watching, when they're heading to the game later, the fifth game, he's watching from the—across the stairwell as Kuhn goes over to Jonin is like, let me help you. Let me help you with the baby prompted by another deeply upsetting series of events that we'll

talk about in short order, I have no doubt. The horror of, I'm with you, like, just the absolute horror of what transpired in hide and seek when Myeonggi stabbed, stabbed a shared favorite and beloved character, Hyunju, in the spine multiple times. And just the way that that was like framed. So you sort of like, no, but before you know, it has to be him, but like, you haven't seen him. And then again, that knife sedge, like, he does what he said, which is like, I will protect you. He doesn't rat out June He and the baby. He's like, no one else is in the room. No one's in the room.

But he doesn't stay in a protector. He doesn't make sure that nobody else actually gets to her. And so that was like so emblematic to me too. I think it's like already a really compelling relationship. And now you put the actual baby like born and in the game into the mix. Thanks, VIPs. Yeah. And I think that that's just, like, really compelling.

And I think that those characters, those characters have been interesting, and that dynamic is fascinating for, like, to see where that goes the rest of the way. It's compelling as it pertains to him. Yes. I can't, can I hop, I'm going to hop ahead to talk about the deaths in the stretch of the relationship, in the stress of the show. Now, am I salty that my, all my favorites were, like, taken off the board? Sure.

because, you know, Hyeongju dies, and that is horrible. Youngshik is killed by his own mother to protect Junhi and the baby. And it's all very upsetting. And then Kimja gives this pep talk to Guy Hun about. how they have to protect this baby. She gives this imploring speech. Yeah.

And this pep talk to him. And then she kills herself. And I just... So when we watch Squid Game Season 1, and it comes down to three players, and again, you know that it's probably going to come down to these two old friends. Yeah. Because that is the juiciest sort of situation that we came down to.

But you have this, like, young woman I was so invested in. and then she's taken out. And at the time, I was like, it feels like she was taken out just to motivate Gihun, which is like a classic sort of fridging move. But I was just sort of like, okay, listen, it's good game,

not everyone's going to survive. Okay, whatever. And then there's just a series of sacrificial women inside of this season two. And I was talking to a friend of mine, and again, she's not, I'm not holding her up as an expert on this, but then again,

I went and sort of tried to read a bunch of cultural commentary articles on this about the archetype of women in Korean stories as self-sacrifice being sort of the ultimate virtue for female characters. And actually, the most articles I could find on this was talking about how that has been changing a lot with recent Korean dramas that you've got,

Attorney Wu, which is like one of the most popular. My aunt loves to talk about that, K-Drama, as like women moving out of that space and into these other roles. But inside of Squid Game, I feel like again and again, and we do with the character, Noel, who is like this action hero woman. But I think it's very telling that you and I have not talked about that storyline at all, even though in theory it should be something I,

I'm very emotionally invested in. It's not something I am regrettably emotionally invested in. And I just feel like once again, we're lining up things to position a story so that it's all, like, Gihun now has, you know, when he crosses the bridge here, custody of the baby. The baby is now like a Gihun responsibility. And I'm just sort of like all of this felt like it was leading up to that. And again, he's the protagonist. So I shouldn't be like too upset about that. but I just felt like woman after woman, I was just like, she's crazy.

Like, I don't know. I just, I feel like there's something going on inside this good game that feels a little off to me in terms of its set up and sacrifice of various female characters. So that's sort of where I'm sitting here in season three. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't, you know, feel like. remotely equipped to comment on the presentation of like certain cultural archetypes because I just am not, you know, well versed enough in Korean storytelling.

But I think that's really interesting. And I think like I'm wondering if something about the like just death toll, like the heft of the loss and the savagery on display in Squid Game has made that, has, has, made that feel a little less keen to me than it otherwise would have because it's like hundreds of hundred. Everyone's going to happen. Yeah, exactly.

And I think that, but I don't say that at all to an anyway challenge or just count the point you're making. And I think like a character like Joan He is a great character to talk about because like, yeah, we have so much we don't know really about her life.

And I think that's, you know, true more broadly for like the bulk of the characters ultimately. I think that so many of the women in the story have been in seasons two and three, like the more compelling characters to spend time with. Totally. Certainly. And so then like, yeah, feeling the, feeling the hit of their death, I think the question of like sacrifice and who is willing to sacrifice for whom, you know,

like inside of the mother-son relationship, the fact that that kind of goes back and forth, like who was willing to do what for whom and when was interesting to watch. But it's certainly, I will say, like, I definitely felt like we were heading to like, that was one where it's like, we know, again, we know there can't be a happy ending for those characters definitively. So the question is, like, who basically lets the other person. person down or lets themselves down and like the most to your to your pain math point from earlier the most devastating way possible so yeah that's it's um i was very affected by everything

that happened with those characters yeah killing herself like i understand like she's she's killed her son yeah and has and has made a plea on behalf of an innocent life and been devastated to see a large group of people say we don't give a shit we're going to do this anyway so that is devastating and heartbreaking to her I just don't understand it felt slightly inconsistent

for me for that character and again there are cultural layers that I don't understand I can do all the reading in the world and still not understand but like for that character to have given so much

to protect Juni and the baby and then take her own life and I'm like Like, are you not going to continue to try to do everything you can until you can't anymore to protect this person that you have made the ultimate sacrifice for in killing your own son? Yeah. Like, we're just taking ourselves off the board now.

Like, that, again, that was more frustrating than it was heartbreaking to me. And I love that character so much. I love that performance. Yeah, same. She was wonderful. That was a tough one for me. anything you want to say on the death front was there like one that you wanted to really dig into my my pick for most meaningful impactful upsetting throw any any term to describe a state

of complete and abject despair in front of it death is is definitely hianju no question i mean i was really distraught like watching that i think that you know for a number of reasons everything you've already said about how, you know, just like wonderful and impactful the character was and the performance was, I think, like, the specific nature of during, during hide and seek, the, just like, again, this friendship that has developed between these characters. Like, I love that. Don't we make a great team moment? You know, the fact that you have this really, like, sinister twist with the keyholes and the three shapes. And that, you know, for most of the players in the game, that is clearly designed to spark what we see elsewhere with a number of different characters throughout the episode, right?

Right. Ripping a key off of somebody who you're going to kill or leave for dead, um, waiting for somebody else to open the door and then taking the keys, you know, Player 100 and Player 100. What a, what a moment between them. What a guy. But the, like, the fact that for Hianju, um, Junhi, and Guimsaat, like,

this was a really rare group of people inside of the game who, actually formed something meaningful with each other and could work as a team. And to watch the joy on their faces, like, realizing, even just something like the trust of like, will you carry all of them? Like, who else in the game would have that level of trust from anyone, right? The number of different moments were like, you know, they're like, just leave us. Like, we have been a burden for too long. And like, there are very few characters in the show where you would have no reason to doubt

the decision that they would make. And I was like, I don't doubt for a second, literally not a second, that Hyunju is going to stay and protect them no matter what. And so then, like, and, you know, we get the just incredible, like, accomplishment and prowess of, like, charging and killing the would-be, you know, team red assailants, taking the knife, the nurturing and tenderness of being there to help during the labor. But, you know, the winning stroke on the devastation front is obviously just like, like you said, finding the exit, the step over the threshold, hearing the golden light and hearing the song, congratulations, you did it. And, like, she was safe. Like, she was out and she was safe and she chose to go back anyway. And there are just so few people that were, like, she had all three keys. You know, she didn't need anyone else, but she decided that she did for different reasons.

The need wasn't about moving forward in the game. It was about, like, the depth of that devotion to each other. Just like a true, rare good person in the game. And that was, like, amazing to watch. And it was really, really upsetting. And then, of course, just you feel the absence, like so, the vacuum, so immediately. Yeah. Really, really painful.

And I want to say, again, I know that I'm watching Squid Game. And I do not expect that my favorites or... going to make it all the way to the end or anything like that. And I will say even on the flip side of that, someone like Player 100, who you just mentioned, just the evilest dude. Terrible. And reminds me a lot of this one character in, this is my second week to talk about Traindupisand, one of the great zombie films.

But like those evil old rich dudes, even though he's in a ton of debt, he's an evil old rich dudes, making it very far. feels right to me. I'm like, yes, of course. Of course. The worst dude you know is going to make it so far in this game. Yeah. And that feels like I'm not upset about that.

I'm like, yeah, that feels right. That's how that feels. So it's not like, oh, all the nice people are dying. It's sort of like when they die and what they take in terms of my emotional investment away from. Like if the skills are tipped of like too many people, don't care about are still competing in this game. Yeah. You know, versus in Squid Game season one, like, I'm all in on our final three contestants

in season one, you know? Like, I even, yeah. Okay. Let's go back to most intriguing cultural commentary. Anything that you wanted to say on that front? Um, you know, we've talked about this a little bit already. I get this is cultural, but just also more broadly, like, you know, political and obviously like part of the mission of the show is to assess Korean society and

Korean culture and Korean politics, but also there's like something that you were going to bring to it as a viewer from like wherever you're watching and also something undeniably just global about the state of division and deeply. dredched divides in global politics right now. So I thought that the stretch in episode one where the workers and the soldiers lead the players past the very like the seraphites and wolves-esque tableau of the hanging bodies on their way to the fourth game and we get the PA announcement, you are witnessing the fate of those who refuse the Democratic process of voting and instead attempted to stop the game using violent means, we will not tolerate any irrational behavior, which attempts to destroy the fair rules of this game. That is a potent commentary, of course, that, again, I think like, you know, depending on where

you are in the world or where you're watching from, you're going to be thinking about the corollaries or the commentaries that apply to your political system. The idea that challenging the structure and system is, yeah, irrational and must then be met in turn with decisive, quieting violence is so intentionally, of course, is so disturbing and upsetting and just very top of mind watching this in our current political climate in the United States of America. And again, I think just, just, you know, more globally. Yeah, I think on a similar front, I will say that, you know, and this is something that the creator has talked about specifically in terms of, you know, we get so many, we're voting again, we're voting again, we're voting against sequences. The way in which these two seasons are interested in exploring the way people will vote against their own interests again and again. Now, the blue circle-wearing crowd have convinced themselves that they're voting in their own interest because we're voting to ratchet up the prize money here. And so this is in our own interest.

But at the end of the day, we've seen Squid Gay before. We know most of these people are not going to, if any, are going to make it out. And so they are at the end of the day voting for their own demise. Yeah, no question. And how easily this group of people could overwhelm the oppressors who have them locked up, but they cannot form a coalition in order to do so. And so all of that, yeah, again, I don't think it matters where in the world you're watching that. And to lean into a Tony Gilroy point of view, no matter when in history you're watching that.

Like, this is just, again, what humans do. No doubt. I thought that the moment where the frontman after the fourth game, after Hide and Seek, as they're voting between the fourth game and the fifth game, just assures the VIPs. Don't worry. Like, the vote can only possibly go one way. And some of that is because of the math, right? Like, he notes that 16 of the 25 who survived were already team blue.

but the other thing that he says is like everyone's going to be pretty nervous going against the majority after the uprising failed which again is just so pointed intentionally so you know that's that's part of what the show is exploring but yeah and like I think you know

to your point like that we know that the numbers are just going to keep dwindling it's like by this point so does everybody in that in that room voting. And so there's that, you know, and obviously when the VIPs are talking about, like, they're doing the number crunching and, oh, it's like this really, like, hideous, deeply bigoted framing of, like, how much money is, like, a lot to a certain person in a certain circumstance.

It's all, like, again, intentionally really horrible. But, like, when you step back from it and you just kind of, like, remember the introduction to the characters and whose debt was where. And then you were, like, yeah, like, the number of people who, like, actually maybe had enough to call. cover their losses. And it's like at a certain point, when does it shift from self-preservation to greed? And so like having the character, like, player 100 kind of leading that charge, I agree with you, feels just so right. Obviously, his debt total was higher. But yeah, it's just, um, deeply painful to watch. And like, I think that, um, you know, to go back to, to Guillaumeza and that

desperate attempt to convince everybody. Like, okay, take pity on me, like an old lady. Don't make me keep doing this. What about the baby? What about this woman who has just given birth? We've got like basically like an even more heightened exponential version of like Allison making Reneera walk across the red keep after giving birth. It's like, we're really going to just like put your name back into the game.

This is nuts. And for that plea, which is ultimately, even though she does offer up her money, like if you still don't have enough, I'll give you mine, you can split it. She's ultimately making a plea that is less rooted in dollars and cents and much more rooted. It's an appeal to humanity. Like, please just find some grace inside of you to like end this horror show. And they, in a wave, vote to stay. I know.

It's devastating. There's this, like, thin crust of, you know. We all made a choice to be here. We all decided to be here. And we are all actively voting again and again to stay. So this justification of the absolutely demented cruelty here is like, we all decided. We have some control over this sort of thing. There's air quotes where people who aren't watching this and video around that.

And then you introduce this baby who made no choice, has made no choices in their life. is the quintessentially innocent person that these rich VIPs who are about to get to in a second or the recruiter who we spent so much time with in season two the best one of the most handsome men alive but like that their justification in life

is people have made these choices and when they find themselves at the bottom of the ladder of life it's because of these terrible choices that they've made had control and they're why they're there. So I don't have to pity them or help them or anything like that because this is their decision that they made. And then you and then this baby is here and everyone has decided the baby and by everyone I mean like the VIP assholes. I just said the baby is going to be in the game anyway. So twisted. And so it's just like you're exploding

your you know absolutely razor thin excuse that you had in place in the first place. Yeah. Let's not. Sorry. So I don't. So I. No, I just, what you were saying was reminded me, like, on the, on that front about just the idea of, like, choice and the decisions that you make and the bearing that that has in your life, I thought, I did think it was, like, important, you know, we have, obviously we've had, like, a character like the Shaman of the sea, sort of weaponizing the absence of free will against Keehan and other characters. And certainly using that idea of, like, I'm not using my eyes to see. I'm guided by the, the voices. genuine laugh for me. When she was like looking at her little blood era. Side-eye to find the blood era. That was such a great touch.

But I thought it was really important that the idea of choice and like you get to make your decisions wasn't only presented inside of these episodes and ultimately in this final season as like the thing that might doom or damn you. So I thought it was really crucial that we got that conversation between Gihun and Junhi about like, because she's. she's not only grieving, she's like consumed by guilt, right? Like, it's my fault.

Now, we've had with De Ho and, and, um, and Guihan, this whole, like, whose fault is it? What happened? What's wrong with the uprising? Like, yeah, a whole, it's like, this, that's the thrust for those characters. So, and then, you know,

when after he has killed somebody, strangled him with his bare hands. He sure did. Gehune's like, it, it was my fault. And then enters like a different state of, paralysis because he's blaming himself. And so then to kind of be pulled out of that and say to Juni, like, it's not your fault,

we made a choice. Like all of these different people, both of us, Hyunju, like, everybody made a choice, ultimately. And like he shares about his own life and his regret with his daughter, but also how those like first moments after she was born were like the best of his life. And I just thought, like, the way that, like, finding lessons for himself and other people's pain, but then also, like, using his own pain to hopefully unlock a lesson for somebody else felt like an important step. Because he's in such a state of, like, basically being rendered still and silent by these oppressors.

And then when he's activated, it's purely motivated by vengeance, right? And so to like watch him move from season one fighting for himself to survive, season two, fighting for everyone, for an idea that is almost like so big, how do you express it or try to channel it? And then now at, you know, where we are three episodes into season three, fighting for something more specific, right? Fighting to like help Jooney and her baby or like help another person believe that there could be a way to move forward or that you could forgive yourself and let yourself off

the hook for something terrible that happened just when you cared about. That all felt pretty crucial. I thought it was really interesting. And I did find the moment where he was talking to her on the stairs. Like, very powerful. But, like, ultimately, that idea is interesting and yet feels under-explored and out of balance with some other things that are here. The VIPs.

Okay. Yeah. We've already talked about, we don't need to, like, harp on this. We think it's just a huge misstep. And I did tweet about this. One of the worst sentences anyone's ever said in a podcast. I did tweet about this. But I did tweet with like a dumb Wayne's World 2 joke.

But I was just like, like them being, the actors playing the VIPs being so terrible in season one, bothered me way less because I was just sort of like, well, whatever, this is for Korean audiences. and, you know, the budget is what it is and whatever it is. Them being somehow even worse in, and by now they have all the resources in the world to cast this differently or do this differently, and they went with this anyway. I got a lot of responses from people saying, like, you know, from, you know, Western people who have acted in Korean work or this sort of thing is, like, they want the performance to be as broad and exaggerated as possible

so that it is legible to someone who doesn't speak English so that they can grok what is going on. And the flip side of that is that a lot of non-English-speaking characters that we get in Western media may seem similar to people. I've heard this all the time when we were covering Lost. Like, Junjin Kim speaks beautiful Korean who plays Son-on-Loss, but Daniel Day Kim does not speak Korean very well. And you could have fooled me, of course, to my dumb ears, but people who speak Korean watching Loss are like, what am I listening to inside of this conversation? And so, like, you know, turnabouts fair play and all that sort of stuff like that.

I'm just like, I feel like there has to be a better way to accomplish what you're trying to. to accomplish, which is a performance that is broad and legible to a non-English-speaking audience, because I don't need this to be oriented towards me. This is a Korean product. That's fine. And also just, like, less tooth grindingly bad. I just don't understand. And in some of the cases, those actors are being dubbed.

It's not just, like, these broad, bad American accents, but, like, a broad, bad American accent dubbed over a different person. And I'm just like, it's just, again, I don't understand why this couldn't have been done in a way that satisfies all those things. I feel like we could have gotten there, you know? Yeah. Again, this, like, really has, is not working for me in season three. I think that certainly something about the, like, intentionally, heightened, you know, dial it up to forget 11, let's go to 100, like, cartoon evil of it all.

You know, to the point that it's like, and right down to the fact that even though they have seen each other's faces, they took off their triangle masks when they were going in for cleanup after hide and seek. They still wear the, yeah, bejeweled animal masks. Obviously, like all of that is there to, yeah, again, like kind of heightened the inhuman nature of what we're watching. I think that's all fine. like just not very good. And like, yeah, I don't know. And there's so much of it. And exactly.

And so like I think in season one, it was much more calibrated, you know, where it's concentrated inside of the nine episode season and then also just like how much of it. And we are much more, I think just on the edge of our seat in those sequences because we're watching Junho's infiltration move to this next stage. and like the tension is really keen. This is, this was, that's not happening here. Like there's the, I guess like the closest we get. I'm trying to think if I'm like forgetting.

It's mostly just like having dinner and then sitting around with the frontman like talking about like comparing and contrasting to big game hunting. Like that's the most of what it is. I mean, I guess we have Noel like kind of using their presence. to as leverage with the officer, basically, like, wouldn't it be better to, like, do what I say because you don't want me, like, messing this up for you? But other than that, they're, like, it's a little bit more contained, but also then expanded in a way that's just very strange. I did think, though, I do think we should ask, is it all worth it? Is it all worth it?

For this exchange. This might turn 2-2-2 into some kind of Marvel superhero. Like Wonder Woman? that's actually a DC superhero. But anyway, it seems reasonable to me. And of course, seems reasonable to me applies to putting the baby in the game. Listen, did I at home before the character say, that's DC actually, say that's DC actually? Of course. Maybe. Yeah.

I chuckled. That was good. That was good. talk about, which is the death of Hyunju or the Gihun conversation on the stairs. I bet, you know, this is where I was, we've already kind of talked about this a little bit, but this is where I was going to chat about, um, mother and son, Guillaume John and Youngshik. Like, I think that that was that moment of having to make that decision. I think every, everything, your, your points are really well made. And I, I was like, even though I knew that

something terrible was going to happen, I was, I was pretty like, oh, my God. this is like awful while watching that moment. You know, the doomed nature of the pairing and the doomed nature of like the bulk of the people who are in the arena, there's this like, you know, how could it not end horribly aspect that's undeniable, as you noted. But I think like the way we built toward this climactic decision for them was, was potent. You know, everything that happened like during Mingle, the pulling away, like allowing him, you know, was he pulled away by other people?

yes, but like, did he allow it to happen and, like, go to safe harbor? And then the shame and, like, her shame is, is presented in protecting him. Both so other people don't know that this happened, but also because how horrible for her, if they know that it did. Like, that was just all been really good up to this point. They're so good. They're great. And, like, the decision, I thought that they're.

I know. It's really, it is, like, the law, like, I'm with you, the characters we lost in this episode, like it takes something out of the rest of the season, no question. Their conversation about whether to switch teams, like at the beginning, when the players have this period where they can, upon mutual agreement. So they can't just, like, you can't just strong arm another player into switching with you. I mean, you probably could. But, like, you're not supposed to, right?

And this decision, like, the fear that he has, but it's actually stated by her first, right? Like, you're not going to be able to, like, you're not going to be able to hurt anyone. Like, even when you were a kid. Like, you were always the one who got hurt. You're not this guy. And how that kind of builds toward then what she reveals to Gihun later. But the idea, I thought that that was such a effectively warped and fucked up way to, like, wallop us. The idea that he is a character who can't hurt another person, and that's a liability here, you know, was just like, fuck.

That's when the show is at its best, I think. And the fact that, like, and we watch these kind of moments where he can't do it, you know, he finds a blue cowering behind the door, but then is basically duped. Like, I have a sick mother too, and then that player gets the upper hand, and then another red comes in and gets the kill. Like, you're just like watching the minutes on the clock melt away, knowing that you were marching toward this horrible outcome. And then when his mother says to,

Jean-Hie, like, go, go through the exit. And that's when he charges, because he's like, this is my only chance. And she has said to him, like, just, because he's like, I didn't do it. I couldn't kill anyone. So I'm going to die. And then she says, kill me. Just have me like, I've lived long enough. And he's just, like, sobbing.

Like, how could I do that? But then she has to be the one to do that. And of course, this like hairpin, this secret hairpin blade that's been there the whole time. Yeah, like the moment in season two when she's like, if anyone comes at me, like, I'm ready. And then, of course, they remind us that it's there. Boy, that was painful. All of that, Youngshik, not being able to kill someone, watching the clock tick down. And having characters like Myeongi running around killing extra people.

Yes. So you're like, not only are you taking people off the board, you know, and this was the pitch. But not only are you taking people off, but you're screwing other people in red. Yes. You know, of victims that they could. The more we kill, the fewer, yeah, like we're doubling up. Yeah, we're doubling our, yeah. And all of the, like, doll's eyes stuff and stuff like that.

Oh, my God. Yeah, those are intense. I don't believe this is how drugs work. I'm not an expert. But throughout, I will say, and I can't remember if Rob and I talked about this, but I'm sure we must have, but, like, the Smarties-esque, whatever's in the crucifix. They look like, they look like the pelletsy, used to die Easter eggs, whatever they are, whatever party drugs they may be.

Yeah. I don't feel like this is how drugs work. They just do whatever the plot needs them to do at any given time. So do you need hallucinations? Do you need to be speedy? Do you need to like whatever, you know, like. It was really going through it after popping one hallucinating. Yeah.

Various figures. I did think that it felt very like poetic and satisfying. to watchmen to toss the now empty cross out onto the bridge, because obviously that was like very, very charged inside of that, the relationship between those characters and everything with the larger, like, kind of abusive Thanos group, but also just you have the tension around them of like, the clock is ticking and someone's got to go. On the bridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like walk out.

because we haven't talked about the jump rope at all, but that's obviously in the third episode, like to want to see the jump rope. The bridge being back, but there's a jump rope element this time. And how that added element means Gihun can't simply carry mother and child across because he has to jump as he goes,

you know what he means? So he's like, okay, one at a time, I can do this. you know, but it can't just simply be a dash across with like, multiple people draped around him. Do you know what I mean? This was a good example to me of while acknowledging I have never been in this exact circumstance, nor do I care to be. Yeah.

No? I'm like, does he really think he's going to be able to get back over there? There are going to be other players blocking his bad. He thought it first and then he turns around. There's all those people. Yeah. I'm like, what was the plan here? Like that there's just not the, you know,

We're down from 20 to 17 minutes before, like, anything is happening. We just – and given that, like, other players obstructing the path for moving forward was such a key part of glass stepping stones in season one. I'm like, this feels like kind of short memory in a really contextually relevant and similar spots. Can you all just stand there for a second? I have to get a baby across and then a lady with a busted ankle. So if you could just sit – Nobody else is going to wait for you to do that. Park your butt on a boat for a second.

They're on the clock. I will say about Namguo's death at the – before you can get across the bridge. I did like that, not just because that's like an evil character who should die, but I like that, like, I do like all of the shit that happens in the hide-and-seek game. Yeah. You know, to protect various people or to ensure. And then for those people to just die immediately also is, yeah, just what the games were here to play.

Exactly. most surprising twist. I have to be honest, I have a hard time with this because like, I think to the larger point that we've hit a couple times today, part of the proposition with Squid Game is like expect the twist, expect to lose people that you don't think in a normal, like in a normal show you wouldn't expect to lose. So that's sort of what we're always primed for. Maybe for me, it's Soneo, a shaman of the sea, me actually being upset when she died even though she was. like a horrible, awful character. But when Player 100 takes her out, I was like, oh, yeah. That was brutal.

Closing the door on her was, boy, that was a tough moment. I guess my pick is like, maybe this is dumb. Because, you know, obviously when you introduce a pregnant character and like there are conversations about, boy, it seems like your due dates pretty soon. And then they put out the season three trailers and the trailers end with the baby crying. It's like very clear that the baby is going to be born. So I wasn't surprised by that.

But I was surprised that it happened in episode two. Yeah. Because that's a lot of the season to have to account for a baby being here. Like a lot. So I was not expecting the baby to arrive that soon. I will share for listeners when I texted you and I was like episode two harrowing and you're like, I'm guessing it's. baby base and I was like, not really.

The baby does come. So why I didn't say anything else. I was still like, yeah. Okay. And then most harrowing game, either season two or season three, do we agree that it is hide and seek? Has to be. Yeah, I just don't see how it could be anything else.

I think in terms of like me, edge of my seat, what choices are people going to make? Mingle actually hit harder for me. But this is just, if the word. is harrowing and I did write the word harrowing in our document, then it's got to be hide and seek. I thought I'm with you on Mingle. I thought that was amazingly executed and that extra element of like it is rooted in teaming up in alliance building and standing together. And then of course you have to betray that and cast somebody aside or choose somebody else

over them. And it just was so warped. And then of course you get the added elements of like, well, what if there are only so many rooms. It's not just who are you going in with. It's that there are only so many rooms. Diabolical, genuinely. So that was really good.

I thought, like I already said, that Hyden Seek was kind of the twin to and the successor to the Marbles episode because it is so rooted in the interpersonal, either when the characters could find strength in that or when that heightens, whether it is literally a mother having to choose to stab her own son. And then he turns to see that she is the one who did it before he. dies. And like, you know, then the moment where the soldiers come in and it's like, it's done already for various reasons. She stabbed him, the rules of the game, but she's like, spare him. Like, all of that was just, I thought the ratcheting up, because Marbles is like, I think that losing Hyunju in this, in this episode was the most upset. I've been by a character

death since Ali in season one in the Marbles up, which was like so upsetting, not only because he was so sweet and wonderful, but because of what we saw. saying we do. Like, it was just gut-wrenching. Yeah. This was, like, more broadly, I thought, like, just a ratcheting up of

that, like, element of the math of the game. There are some games that they enter into, and it's like, how many people will make it out? We'll find out. That's not what this was, right? It's like, it can, the number is set, and it can only go up from there. It can't go down. And that's just

so insidious as a starting point, and then you heighten it with, like, the relationships between the characters really being centered, and you have the clock, and you have the maze. What do you think took longer to film and choreograph? Using this hide-and-seek set with the corridors and the doors, or Mark S, having to run in season two of Severance. It's like, oh, my God. Because I know that that took, like, eight months?

Eight months? Something like that? Yeah. Wild. It was wild. Oh, okay. I will say on the hide-and-seek front, and we already mentioned this moment, but when we knew that it had to be Yongi 3-33, who had stabbed Hyunju, just for, I guess, tragedy math. Yeah. When Junhi sees that it's him, though, having just been like, because she could hear, because they're doing like the Hunger Games thing and she can hear, like, he killed who he needed to kill.

He passed. He passed. And now he's going to come help me. The way that she said he would do. The way that she said he would do. He's going to come through. And I was like, I too keep trying to believe, Jinky. Like, I am with you. And so when she's like, and that felt like an unrecrossable Rubicon when he kills Jun.

Like there's been this back and forth of like, can I trust him? Can I not? Whatever. But that decision that he made, not even really thinking about it, he was just in his like blood frenzy, he had killed so many people at that point. What's another person? Like, it wasn't like he didn't know who it was, really, like, Hyun Ju. Like, it wasn't, he was not making it. He was just indiscriminately killing it. And that choice. Turns out that was the problem. Yeah. That's not great. But that choice,

yeah. Shut a door to him forever. It hasn't shut all doors because he stills a chance to sort of like be a stand-up guy in some way or another. But in terms of, of like, can these two people leave this game with their baby together? I'm like, that's broke. Something broke there for sure. So, yeah. All right. Well, that was Squid Game.

Season 3, 1 through 3, we will be back with 4 through 6 and our feelings sort of about the series as a whole and some other questions about what is the future of this franchise, et cetera, et cetera, here at the NWL things. Do we feel like that rotten tomatoes IMD score is justified? How do we feel? Hobbes and Dragons Gmail.com, if you have any thoughts or feelings about Squid Game, I'm curious to hear them. Yes. And we did our best on the character name pronunciation.

We beg your forgiveness if we aired. We tried really hard. I'm sure we did. Yes. We did try. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga and John Richter, Joe, Joe, Jon Richter, show me a dinner on, and our Juneronga Powell, our alliance, our team. who would stab hoops inside of a good game? Who's to say?

But I like to believe that we would all make it out together somehow. That's the spirit, buddy. Thanks, pal. We'll be back in more Squid Game. And again, back to the future next week, inception, like some real timey-wimmy mind stuff next week. I'm really excited for it. And we'll see you soon.

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