House of R - ‘Stranger Things’ Season 4, Episode 8 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 2, 2022

Mal and Joanna return to the Upside Down to give you their latest deep dive into Episode 8 of the fourth season of 'Stranger Things' (05:20). They break down each story line and what it means for the gang, starting with the adventure in Russia (21:52). Later, they break down what is happening with Eleven (56:33) and conclude with team Hawkins (68:50). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo. From the Housewives to Summer House and everything in between, we'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners. in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner, or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. He's not scared of us. And for good reason, we were wrong about Vecna. Henry, one, sorry, What are we calling him now?

One. Vecna. One. Henry. Right. We've learned something new about Vecna slash Henry slash one. He's a number like 11, only a sick, evil male child murdering version of her with really bad skin. But my point is, he's super powerful.

He could turn us inside out with a snap of his fingers. It's not a fair fight. So then why fight fair? Back into the ringerverse, your Nexus podcast feed. For all things, fandom, I'm Joanna Robinson. And is that an Eldridge thruming, I hear? It is my house of our host Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory.

Joanna, I'll tell you what it is. It's a wet writhing. It's a guttural gurgling. Are the tentacles chittering? They sure are. Just a real thrill to be back in the upside down with you after our month apart. Wow. Here we are, except in the real world, we were podcasting just yesterday about Miss Marvel.

But here we are again. Less than 24 hours later to talk about Stranger Things. This is, just to be clear, forget into all our usual business, Stranger Things, Season 4, Volume 2, Episode 8, period. We're not talking about the finale. There's a full two and a half hours left of this season that we are not talking about. We'll be talking about that on Sunday. So that, like, if you think you're here for finale chat, you're not. We will not be spoiling finale.

So if you're only up through eight, you decide to take a walk around the block and listen to us, talk about the show before finishing it up. This is the podcast for you. Okay. So let's do some programming reminders as we like to do on this podcast. As you mentioned, we talked about Miss Marvel yesterday. Great, effing podcast. If I do say so myself, thanks in large part to my friend and neighbor, Mallory Rubin, for, you know, opening her heart up as she does beautifully.

Getting to talk about that show is a real joy. And we'll be there. We'll be here to talk about the rest of the season of Miss Marble on this feed. You'll hear from us, as I mentioned, back again on Monday, July 4th. Ever heard of it to talk about the Stranger Things finale? So we'll be back for that. And if you have some questions and comments or concerns about what all played out in Hawkins, we'll have a mailbag prompt up on Twitter.

So if you follow the ringerverse on Twitter, you can drop a question for us and we'll answer that on the finale podcast. Now, where else can people get in touch with us if not Twitter? Oh, boy. You can find us in any realm or dimension on all of the social media platforms because the ringerverse is everywhere, including, of course, on podcast players. You can follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. But you should do it on Spotify, especially. for this, because then you can also plug in

to the upside down playlist, which we're going to talk about later. Great stuff. Synergy. They call that corporate synergy. A few more program reminders. The Midnight Boys, Poo! Back on the 6th of July,

that's a Wednesday, their usual day, to talk about both the Boys, episode 7, and Miss Marvel, Episode 5, their instant reaction. We'll be back, as I said, to talk about Miss Marvel. And then we are in Thorloven Thunder territory. Also, the boy season finale territory. There's just a lot going on.

So, as Mallory mentioned, just check us out on all those social feeds. Subscribe. That makes it really easy if you just subscribe. That's a one-stop shopping. I already mentioned our spoiler warning, obviously. We're just talking about everything in Stranger Things leading up to episode 8, Papa, written and directed by the Deaf brothers, right? So that is what we're talking about today.

I don't have a ton of, like, external interview stuff that I want to talk about, because we're probably going to save that for the finale discussion. But if members of the cast or the creators have said something in an interview before these new episode drops, I consider that fair game, but I really don't have much on my mind from those interviews that I want to use. So just saying, I think that's fair. That's not a spoiler. is already out there in the world. Okay, I want to talk about a few big picture things before we get into this episode.

We know that we are leading up to the final season, is season five. That's the final chapter is what they said that they're doing here. Again, we'll talk about that more when we get to the finale, but I think it's interesting to think about this idea of this being not something

that's leading into a series finale, but something where they have the end game in mind as they are putting the pieces together. And it's one of my favorite places to be in a TV show where they're not done yet, but they can see the finish line. And so they start sort of putting pieces on track for a big, big, big ending.

Did you feel any of that in this episode here? Would you rather reserve that for a finale talk? I think that that'll be easier to parse in full in the finale pop, but I will say broadly that that was on my mind as well. because this fell in the final two installments, in part because of what you just said, this is the lead up to the final season, right? But also in part because these two episodes

are just separate from the other seven episodes, which, you know, accounted for nine-ish hours of TV, the equivalent of a full season, really felt like even though we're only a month away from when we just watched Volume 1, it felt like this kind of standalone event in a way that I think heightened the sensation of there's a lot on the line.

There's a lot to resolve and set up in tandem, and that balance is a delicate one to maintain. One of the things that we talked about a lot in our volume one pods, three of them available for you right now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Listen to them if you haven't yet. Don't know why I said that that way, or look to you that way across our Zoom cameras.

Self-promotion, desiccating witheringly. Love a plug. Loading one. One of the things that we talked about a lot in those pods is what has always been an interesting balance to assess inside of stranger things of character and plot, right? And how there's actually quite a lot of big picture. Do we totally understand Thing X about this mythology conversation heading into season four as a whole? And so I think coming out of season four, when we come back to talk about the finale and as we look ahead to season five, I'm interested in discussing. discussing that because in super-sized episodes, which these certainly are, would you call them

jumbo? Jumbo. Yeah. They're, uh, what's like a, what's a big thing that we've seen in stranger things? There's, it's like the StarCourt mall sized, you know, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, there's no excuse for sacrificing any of the character arcs or that time that we really cherish with these pairings and these groupings in order to allow for the advancement of the mythology. You have to be able to do both.

There's just, despite how long the episodes are, not that much time left. Yeah, that's true. There's also, because of that split that you mentioned, there's also this unique position that Stranger Things is in for the first time. It's a very popular run, which is this, like, month of feverish theorizing, something that Stranger Things fandom has never really had. that, like, there have been some examples of this, like, is 11 actually dead? Is Hopper actually dead at the end of a season?

Those are, like, questions that the fandom has been wondering about. But not this, like, let's press pause for a month. And then we all get to, like, pour over screenshots from trailers or whatever the case may be, clues in the text to figure out what's going to happen. And the question of what's going to happen in a world like Stranger Things boils down. to, and we would often find this at the end Game of Thrones as well, who's going to die, which I don't think is always, I really don't think is always the most interesting question to ask, but it is the question that, like, you and I are susceptible to.

Like, we, you know, we leading right up until this, these two episodes drop, we were exchanging texts about who might die theories, you know? So that can cut both ways. First of all, I think Stranger Things might, like Netflix and the Duffer Brother might reflect on the way in which this break has kept the show in the conversation in a much more present way than we're used to with the binge drop of stranger things. But then it can cut other ways because it sets up expectations. People invent expectations in their mind. They parse interviews.

They look through screenshots and so then they have an idea of what they think is going to happen or how high the death toll may be or whatever it is. And if the show doesn't match your expectation, does that flavor how you consume it? versus just nom, nom, nom, inhaling it in a binge and not even stopping to, like, think about it. What do you think? It's a great point. I would make the most impassioned pitch possible. Not that anyone gives a shit what I think.

And I'm certainly not a programming director at a massive streamer. The strongest plea to release season five weekly. Because while I think of the risk or the down, that you identify as certainly a very real thing in 2022 on the internet in the streaming era of TV. That's like been a very present part of fandom and discussion and the, the community and the discussion around these shows is part of what we cherish about it. We love the theorizing. We love the speculating.

We love the parsing of the text. Often we see that rise of the roller coaster, right? and then that just plummet when the thing that you've been talking about for five weeks on a six-week Disney Plus run or whatever the case may be just doesn't happen or it does happen and then you're disappointed that the thing

you were able to anticipate was just the thing that happened. So I just think that that's like inextricable from consuming pop culture and so I would not let that be a deterrent. I think that the, you know, there was a lot of like, will Stranger Things be as popular in season four? as it was previously.

You know, we ran a big piece on the ringer, did Stranger Things fumbled a bag. This was heading into Volume 1 because nerd culture has become mainstream culture and this show that, like, it was this big smash hit in the genre, which is gone and out of our lives for so long and all these other hits and streamers

and polls on our attention came in to fill that space. Well, that was not an issue. Stranger Things. Season 4 has been an absolute sensation of smash hit, right? Just this morning, there were stories about the Nielsen shattering records, which I initially thought, oh, this is like somehow already about the servers crashing last night, but it was actually about volume one. It was about the May into June window. The ability to take what we just saw over one month and enjoy that and experience that together for two months. I mean, I don't know how long season five will be. Maybe it will be like 50 hours. But I'm assuming it's like nine to ten episodes. Exactly. Ten hour episodes.

Let us talk about it. Let us injuriate in Hawkins, especially as we're preparing to say goodbye to these characters who we're so attached to in love. I just want to say really quickly on the nature of runtime and episodes length. So like the reason you would see a super, and this happened to the end of Thrones too, the reason why you would see a supersized episode,

but a lower episode count is because it means they have to pay the actors and everyone else less. You know, you get paid per episode, not per runtime of episode, right? And so you get paid for nine episodes. But like watching these episodes, these like the end of, well, all of volume two, let's say. There were some clear, like, clear episode breaks where I'm like, this could have been four up, four reasonably chunked episodes.

And a lay. I want to talk about a couple other things really quickly. One, we've already like mentioned. We talked about this a lot in volume one. the wildly entertaining closed caption on on Stranger Things. Our favorite from volume was flesh, Dissending Wetly. But everyone has sort of jumped on this.

And I just want to shout out that Vulture, my pal, Catherine over at Vulture, did this great ranking of the closed captioning things by like delightfulness. She did, she dropped the bag, though, because she did not have flesh descending wetly on there, which I think is the king of them all. But there were, you know, the fact that this one opens,

this episode opens with Eldritch humming, wet, writhing, and tentacles chittering. Oh my God. Joe, if you had said to me heading into season four of Stranger Things, hey, if we got a wet writhing subtitle caption, what do you think we'd be about? I'd say, did Joyce and Hopper read it? Alas, no, it was Nancy in the tattoo chair with the Vecna tentacles.

And then the other advantage of this long break between has been, I think, the Kate Bush phenomenon. It might have happened in quite this huge way anyway, but we didn't talk about this in volume one because it hadn't like really hit the Jen Pop when we recorded those episodes. but the explosion of running up that hill, there was a reportedly, Kay Bush has earned $2.3 million from like the sheer tonnage of streams of this beautiful song from the 80s that is getting a revival because of stranger things.

I just, you know, I just thought we should mention it and have, do you any Kate Bush thoughts or feelings? I think that the use of needle drops and music in these shows and movies is always a fun thing to talk about. I think the way that, you know, I mentioned the Spotify playlist, the upside-down playlist earlier, like the way that the music streaming era kind of allows you to find and access the things that the characters in your story are listening to. Like, I think I've mentioned on on Ringerverse and binge alike before that the last

couple of years on my Spotify wrapped, the top songs were. songs from shows I had been watching or movies I had been watching for work. Like, father and son was number one the year of Bench Road Marvel because I just listened to it. So many times. Had some Cass Elliott up there when I did a loss rewatch early in COVID. So I really love this stuff. We had a great piece from Nate Rogers on the ringer right on the heels of the volume one surge earlier in June about this phenomenon and the impact on music charts.

That's definitely worth a read. But what's on your what's on your upside down playlist? I'm curious. I mean, it's long. We can't share it all. But what are, you like scroll through it and give me some highlights. Well, in case folks don't know, if you go to Spotify right now, Spotify did not pay us to say this, they, you know, it will generate an upside down playlist for you.

Which is really just, if you look at it, you're recently played and like most played songs. I haven't looked yet. Let's see. Okay. Because like I've been recently obsessed with this like very obscure off Broadway musical and listening to it a lot. And it's on my upside down. playlist. Not all of it, but like some of it. And I was like, okay. Well, that's just what I've been listening to lately for sure. Oh, yeah. This is class. I just opened mine. Uh-huh.

Number first song, literally the example I just gave, make your own kind of music. Great. Yeah. Classic. Love it. More than a feeling. Brandy. Don't stop believing. Running up that hill is on here. Baby, I love you. Got the Ramones on here. Nice. Let's see. Um, girls just want to have fun. Believe that was the song we discussed that my husband said he would use to save me from Vecna. Glad to see that here. Yeah. Heaven is a place on earth. I love that.

I love that. I love that. I've got Modern Love, David Bowie, love that for me. Some crying aerosmith. Great. I don't know the last time was that. I believe what a thing called love by the darkness. I think that could be really a really fun pull me back from the, uh, and there's some

Harry styles on here. And I'm like, no, I don't think Harry would bring me back from the, uh, from the upside down, but the clash might. So, you know, check out your playlist. It's an interesting little mixed bag. I've got some CCR on here, which is fitting, because CCR was one of the needle drops. I've got who will stop the rain on here?

Like a prayer, iconic. We got a Madonna mention in this episode. I think what they also did is they seeded in just some Stranger Things songs. Because they've got the journey song from this episode is on my playlist, separate ways, but I've never listened. to that song. And should I say or should I go, The Clash is here,

which I have listened to, but it's like the version from the Stranger Things official. Yeah, from the soundtrack from season one. Yeah, exactly. So, anyway, fun times over on Spotify.

What a, what a company. What a way to go. The last thing I say, and then I promise we're going to talk about this episode of television is something that's kind of interesting.

Right before Volume 2 dropped, a bunch of people noticed that the end of Volume 1, where we see Henry slash Fechna slash one go into the upside down. The color grading on that was updated on the volume one finale from a red wash to a yellow sort of sepio wash. I don't know why, but that's something they decided to change like 24 hours before volume 2 dropped. And then what's also true is that I sit up, I have not slept.

I stayed up all night to watch this. So I watched this like fresh out of the oven. Yeah. But according to Frosty Ever Collider, they changed some of the VFX and uploaded a new version, new VFX like this morning. So unless you were a night owl and watching Stranger Things, you will have gotten this updated version. So most people got the updated version. But like those of us who... What did they change?

Is it? Do we know? I don't know. I don't know. I think they'd just like refine and improve some BFX. But I was just sort of like, I didn't notice anything that looked off or janky. So I couldn't be able to identify that for you. But I enjoyed a couple days ago when the stories were floating around about them popping back in and editing old episodes and our beloved colleague, Ben Lindbergh dropped an article in Slack about it. And this comment was me when I asked the copy desk to fix a two-year-old typo. It's great stuff. It's really good. Classic Lindberg Wait, Steve, are you pulling up your Spotify upside down list? I'm just curious what's on your list.

Yeah, what's on your list? I can pull that up in a second. Let me see. I saw your little cursor in the document go over the list, so I didn't know if you were pulling it up right now. It's just pulling it. So this is just for me? Yeah, yeah. It's just for you. Steve Arena. Just for you and Vecna. Okay. We got wasted years by Iron Maiden. I would not have pigs.

You could be mine from Guns and Roses. Okay, this is good. Is this you, Steve? Let me make sure. I need to refresh. Is someone else sharing your algorithm? Is someone a little more hardcore on your Spotify? I could be hardcore. You don't know me.

You don't know me. A little bit of credit. Okay, no, this is better. No, this is more accurate. Let me see. Queen tie your mother down, bulls on parade, raged against the machine. And then paramour.

It sounds more correct. This is a bit more correct. But I could have had. You don't know me. I could have iron-made it on my list. I could have had it. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com. slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

All right. We're going to break down as we have been this episode into its four sort of distinct storylines. They've been running kind of four. And as we find out in this episode, four is a significant number for season four. This all seems intentionally structured to be broken out this way.

Some high highs in this episode and then some like sort of confounding what are we still doing here moments for me. I have to say Russia in general, still not hitting the high notes for me. You're not enjoying your time with the peanut butter smuggler. I, yeah. What did you think about Katinka? No?

Not into Katinka? The gang. I was really into Winona Ryder's pronunciation of Katinka. That was fantastic. Quietly one of the best moments of the episode was, Joyce's facial expression, the look of pure revulsion on her face when Yuri was saying that this Katinka, the helicopter was unspoiled, unlike the other Katinka, which was appalling. And Joyce's face reflected that.

Absolutely, she like hit him. She like, yeah, anyway, great, great stuff from Joyce. Speaking of Joyce, we have to talk about this moment that you and I both had like a little record scratch moment about, which is Joyce's. banishing up Hopper, a Stranger Things classic moment. Someone is getting bandaged up by someone else. There's wistful longing and sexual tension as we have exposed. You're talking about my viewing experience.

Yes. Your wish. As a special tension? Does I watch Hopper in any scene? Yeah. That's correct. Classic. And then Hopper asks after his daughter, 11, whom he loves.

And he asks her, how 11, is and she says good. She says she misses her dad. And now I and I both have some questions about you know, adopted mom, Joyce Byers. This is wild to me because Joyce's character

in the first two seasons was so like was she was not believed because she was such a hovering helicopter parent and they were like she's too involved, invested in her children. Wouldn't believe her son was dead when they had a body in the morgue. That level of attentive and devoted and unwilling to turn her attention anywhere else even for a second.

But when Joan and Brian Britannica call, who can only focus on so many other things? This was really wild. Like I, this was actually like a kind of, I cackled a little bit at this. This was just so bizarre. Not only because of what you just said and how, like, I really, I do enjoy Joyce and Murray together. And obviously I was deeply invested in seeing Joyce and Hopper together again. I think like the Yuri and general Russia of it all has, yes, like, again, as much as I adore being with Hopper, typically when we're in those scenes, I'm like very eager to get back to the other characters. Some of it is just the, it is still like baffling to me that Joyce did not tell 11 and tell the kids where she was going and what she was trying to do and give them that hope that Hopper might be alive.

But even beyond that, and like, look, there's a lot going on. It's a tough time for everyone. I'll try to be generous and charitable. I love Joyce. She's my gal. However. How is 11 was not a tough time before any of this. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, the whole opening stretch in California is about how miserable she is and how she can't find her sense of belonging or people who understand and accept her outside of that home. And then when you realize that some of the people inside of that home don't really recognize or know that, it's like pretty heartbreaking. I guess that's also really true to life, right? Everybody has their own shit. And sometimes you don't see that someone who you do deeply care about really needs you. But it was, it was a tough one. Tough one. I am.

I'll reference it again later, but Daniel Zario over at Variety wrote my favorite review of the season. It's spoilery, though, if, like, you'll want to watch everything before you read it. But he had this good moment where he was just sort of like, this struck a weird note for me, but I guess you could say that this is growing up. And it's like, Joyce is no longer the mom of little kids. She's mom of, like, teens. and you know less and less about your kids as they grow older, they hide more and more from you. So you could explain it that way, but I still would like to think that Joyce would have noticed.

And she didn't have to go all the way into it as they're trying to escape a Russian prison, but she could have been like, it's been tough for her. She misses you. Not she's good. What does Darcy say to Thor? How space! She's good. No, that is a good point.

And it is, I do feel that. And I think especially after these characters have been through all of the things that they've been through and have had to uproot their lives and move across the country, it would be very easy to never be able to move forward, like for Joyce or the kids, right, to never be able to do anything in your own life other than hover over each other and perseverate about what might go wrong. And so I think there is actually, again, if you want to try to find the charitable lens, like I think there is something actually kind of affirming about the fact that.

that she would have gotten to a place where she trusted the kids to go live their own lives where she didn't have to watch and offer. But, you know, you think back to that, that diorama,

more like diarrhea, Mr. Fibley sequence. And it's like, Joyce, where are you? It's tough. It's tough. Eleven is like one bad day away from assaulting a girl

with a roller skate. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that actually happened. Yeah. That was good. Jonathan hi all the time, stoned out of his mind, asking for confusing olive oil and wine at the dinner table while he's scarfing down the risotto. Will also not great, obviously.

I love Will. I can't wait to talk about Will. In that bandage sequence, though, I just want to say, like the exchange that immediately preceded the She's Good L moment was the, I thought you were dead. I thought I lost you. I did lose you exchange. And even though it was a sweet moment overall, Joyce telling Hopper that he's the hero of Hawkins, it was heartbreaking to me when she told him

that they had a funeral and he said, anybody's show? Like, that is really, really heart-wrenching that his reflexive response was to assume that nobody would care that he died. And again, like it's Hopper, so it builds into a moment of levity. where he says, you know, yeah, I always felt it'd be easier to like when I was dead, which is

very amusing. But that's part of what I just really do love about his character. There's this like bravado and this wit and this sarcasm and obviously the sexiness. But there's this really tender heart and a lot of pain and a lot of feeling like he's never been enough for other people. So just to get that little injection of that, that's like one of the things I really want more of out of his storyline again moving forward. And obviously the sex. And the sex. All right.

Speaking of sexiness. No, that's a bad transition. We have no idea we're going to see that. You don't think a demadog suspended in like gas, amber, I don't know, liquid in a tank. Are you saying speaking of sexiness because it made you think of Palpatine? You've always loved sheave, you know? said it somehow the demagogues returned in these states

we don't know what the Russians are doing with them but they're there and Russians are making all kinds of mistakes with these monsters right so you've got the dem dogs if you saw the season trailer you would have seen this scene but more pertinely

perhaps of the future is there's this big case of swirling angry dust that if you've ever watched an episode of Lost will remind you of the smoke monster on Lost, good old smoky, except it's a little more brown than the Black City smoke on Lost. No clicking. Yeah, no clicking yet.

No, no... Can't wait for the caption on any clicking. That would be amazing. Chitters dustily. Did you know that one of the main sounds on that make up the smoke monster, you know, audio palette on Lost is the sound of a receipt, a taxi receipt printing. Yeah.

It's great stuff. Great data. Anyway, it's one of those things that you actually, once you know that, you kind of can't hear the sound effect the same way. Yeah. Much like now when I watch Stranger Things, I can't watch Vecna without hearing my husband's impression of Vecna, which Steve hasn't heard, but Joanna or Juna have it. It's fucking terrifying.

Yeah. You think you've lived and then one day you get a voice memo for Mallory Rubin on your phone. That's her wonderful, lovely husband, going Joanna. Arjuna. I might make him come on the pot on Sunday. Do some wide voice work. We'll see. Awful. All right. So the Smoke Monster's here. Do we want to talk about this now? Do we want to talk about this later? How do you feel? Let's... Should we put a pin and all smoking here? Mostly put a pin and come back to it. I will say a couple things here. In general, this whole sequence, like going into the lab and seeing the demadog cut open on the table. I had, I'm curious if you think this sounds strange or if you had the same response.

I felt like a lot of pity and felt really bad for that poor creature. I thought Hopper did too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, made me think of my guide dart from season two. Darling dart is Three Musketeers. And that was really just heartbreaking. And then we see all of the cases with that like kind of amber fluid, which I already mentioned Palpi, but it really did like strongly make me think of Star Wars. And the Palpatine, Snoke tanks and all of the different lab vessels that we've seen for cloning over the years. So I just wanted to mention that because, or even just like the Fortress, Inquisitorious hallway that we just saw.

Now, we don't learn inside of this episode what exactly is happening, but just based on what we see in this scene, the cut-open demadog, the lab casing, the scientists imploring them not to go in there, it's clearer up to something. So what are these experiments for specifically? Like, they have a demigorgon in the prison to train as a weapon. That's why they want the live prey, right? That was a big part of the end of season four volume one. but what else are the Russians working on and how might that bear out in the story moving forward just in general? And then of course the, and like we get Murray kind of drawing our attention. The hell are they doing?

It's like, hey, what are they doing? Obviously, that's something we're meant to be thinking about. And, you know, all of the characters like linger in front of the smoke. And then as we leave that scene, the camera pulls us back through it, like really drawing our attention to it. And my first thought, and here's what I'm going to say, going to do a little caveat here. Very few things that give me more anxiety in the world than the instant reaction podcast form. I have nothing but the utmost admiration and respect for our midnight boys' pals. I don't know how they do it.

I hate being wrong on podcast. It gives me stomach ulcers. So it's possible that by Sunday, when we're back to record our Monday pod, and we've gotten the opportunity to watch this more and participate in more of the conversation around it. I'll have a completely different read. But just after the initial viewing, my assumption was that that was the same kind of particulate smoke creature that made up the massive looming spider mind flyer from season two, the one that we saw port itself into Will and possess him, and the one that was basically exercised from Will in the cabin with the extreme heat at the end of

season two. It just looked it looked the same to me. So is that a actual piece of that exact moment in the plot and moment in the time? You know, we know some of that got left behind, right? That was part of the season three plot. Is it something else entirely? I don't know. But I powerfully recalled that and we get a shot where there are a lot of like flashes as 11 and Popper talking elsewhere in the episode of other things that have happened in the prior episodes leading up to this point. And that smoke creature penetrating will and possessing him is one of the things we see. So I'm just assuming it's the same thing. But again, might be wrong. What did you think? I mean, if it is the same thing, I have questions similar to the nuns in the

sound of music, which is like, how do you catch a wave upon a sand? How do you solve a problem like Maria? And how do you capture sentient dust in a tank? Like, how do you capture that? I'm not, saying you're wrong. I'm just curious about, like, is it a Ghostbusters, like, proton trap? Like, what, how do we contain this? I'm not, that's not, that's not an argument. It's not an argument. I'm just curious. I don't know. It's like if they had had a glass case right next to Will's bed and Jonathan had focused his energies on the funneling the smoke into that instead of hugging Nancy very sweetly, maybe our Arpals could have done it. I mean, who knows? You know, I think that there's this.

interesting through line of stranger things where there are a lot of moments where our characters make plans that don't, don't pan out and make a lot of mistakes in a way that I enjoy, because, like, they're not Ghostbusters as much as they'd love to be their children in a Midwestern town, just going about their day, constantly confronting the extraordinary. The idea that Russian scientists in the military, and we had seen in season three under StarCourt, what they had achieved and what they were able to mechanize and harness, I believe that they could have found a way to capture that. But I think it's a fair point. No, no, no, no. That wasn't me making a point. I wasn't saying, how could they? I'm just curious what the process. I want to see it. Yeah, I want

to see it. I'm not, I'm not, no, I'm not arguing. Space eaters? And then fans. Yes. What do you think? Uh-huh. Combo. One, two, combo. Like, do you think a swamp cooler was also involved? I have questions about it. But anyway, um, it also just, looks visually like a lot like an obscureal, an obscureist from the Harry universe. My favorite film franchise, the Fantastic Beast franchise. Yeah. Just reminds me of that visually, especially when it was like swirling. But it was like furious. Yeah. And it seems sentient, right? Like whatever it is, it felt like it had a personality. All right. So we got, I mean, like, they break out of the prison

and how are they going to get out of this Supermax prison? I mean, they like crawl out a long tunnel. the good old Sean Shank approach with Dimitri being like what is this a grate that will get us out of here? Cool. Like they get out. Then they just plow through a gate

in a truck. Sure. Sure. Genuinely sure. There's panic at the prison. Panic at the disco, panic at the prison, monsters are loose. They plow through the gate.

I'm not rain clouding and I'm just saying that that is the literal escape plan here. Do you ever think about and I'd say this in a truly neutral way, how many really central plot elements in stranger things directly hinge on somebody crawling through a drain or a tunnel or event? Like, this reminds me a little bit of Ben Lindbergh's

like everything important in Star Wars connects back to a hyperdrive failure. It's like everyone goes through a vent or a tunnel at some point. Oh, yeah, like Erica and StarCart. Yeah. There's the Malsoff and 11 got out of the lab in the first place by crawling through that drain pipe, like just the lights. You know, I love it. Drain pipes and vents.

Yeah. Very Ezras. Very Esrax. We get, as you say, we get all the business with the helicopter. And then I just do, before we leave this, I just want to shout out. I want to shout out Dimitri. You've started calling him by his actual character name. I'm still going with Enzo.

Okay. But I respect your choice. Vecre. Vecna, one, whatever we decided we want to call him. Exactly. I would call him by his actor's name, but I'm afraid of his Polish last name and then I'm going to butcher it. So, Dmitri gets on the phone, and I just want to point out, is very charming.

Like, smooth as silk on the phone with whomesoever it is he's talking to. We got the full jock and hagar voice here. We really did. Absolutely. In Russian. Like, have you ever wanted to hear the full Jack and Hagar charms? in Russian. Yes, I did, and I got it in this episode. Thank you very much, Defer Brothers. I appreciate you. I loved it. So, so Team California is on the road, right? Mm.

Rochachos! I almost called you brocacho in my intro. I love the Cal, I honestly really love the California representation in Argyle. But highs and lows of the California crew, as we, as we outlined, you know, some of the California stuff, some of the Russia stuff feels like, can we just get back to Hawkins or what's going on with L-11 and stuff like that. However, there is, I think, one of the best moments ever in Stranger Things in the Surfer Boy Pizza van on the way to rescue 11. Will has a conversation with Mikey shows him the painting that we've been aware of since the premiere volume one, and we knew that he was working on it

because he had 11 intimated that he had a crush on someone and he was painting and then he brought it to the airport and then he brought it on the road trip and we're like, oh my God, Will. And you're painting and he shows the painting to Mike. And then he talks to Mike about how quote unquote 11 feels, but obviously it's about how Will feels about Mike. And Mike, not two brain cells to rub together between his earballs has no idea, I guess, what's going on. At first I thought maybe charitably he decided. he's like sort of willfully being ignorant about what's going on here. But like it really seems like Mike has no clue what's being downloaded to him.

However, and what really makes the scene for me? Because like Noah Schnapp is really good in the scene. It gets a little ham-fisted when he like basically bites his finger and looks out the window. I was like, it was really working for me. And then it just like went like one step beyond where I need it to get the message. But what killed me absolutely and what is the beauty? beauty, beauty of that scene is Jonathan in the mirror watching Will. It is just, I cried. It was just really beautiful. Jonathan clocking his brother in a way that Mike is completely not.

And Jonathan understanding, clearly understanding what is going on with his brother in this scene. And it's really, it's affecting for a number of reasons. But what I really loved about it is in contrast to what we get with Joyce, sort of acting against her established character in season one and two. This feels like a return to the Jonathan Will dynamic that was very strong in season one and pretty strong in season two. And then like Jonathan's whole storyline became about Nancy and it feels like that brother dynamic just completely dissolved. And so to remember that they were extremely close, like bonded by the fact that their, you know, their dad abandoned them. And they were like, you know, despite their age, different.

differences, like very tight. I loved seeing that return to it. And I just felt like it was beautifully, subtly done in a way that Stranger Things sometimes, you know, goes a step beyond subtle. I thought that stuff was really, really beautiful. What did you think, Mallory?

I loved it. This was probably my favorite scene and sequence of this episode. And, you know, it won't surprise you to hear that I loved and was deeply moved by the look out of the window at the end I was like in tears at that point. But I also, I had the same response to you,

the same response as you about Jonathan because I had missed that connection between them. And even though like Jonathan and Argyle are very amusing and like charming in the beginning of season four, it felt like a lot of the substance of Jonathan's arc had disappeared. And I think we feel that most palpably because of that bond. with Will and how absent that connection between them felt.

And to see just that recognition, like that kind of, and it's literally, it is just a look. We see that Jonathan is paying attention. And that feels very much like a through line of this show, right? Like, who is the person in your life who sees you clearly? And I just thought that was really so subtle in a show. and actually in a scene to its credit that kind of acknowledged and leaned into the fact that sometimes it's hard to be subtle. Like when Will is talking about the painting and says, you know, that the heart on the crest, sure, like maybe it's a little on the nose. And I kind of appreciated and enjoyed that,

right? Like leaning into the fact that sometimes the subtlety is actually not present, is not there. And that's part of growing up too. It's just like saying the thing out loud. And the Jonathan moment was so subtle. And like, to your point about all of the things that bonded them, one of the, most impactful and most consistently affecting aspects of their relationship was Jonathan always being there to tell Will, it's okay to be different. And it is okay to be who you are. And you will find the people in your life eventually who love you not despite that but because of it. right? And so we bring all of that with us to that, to that look in the mirror with Jonathan. And I just

thought that was really, really lovely. And I thought Noah was really good in that scene. And, you know, that whole, the whole quote about, you know, she's so different from other people and the way that he's talking about 11 when you're different. Sometimes you feel like a mistake was just heart-wrenching. And I thought that that scene was even before that moment. That's what we build toward really rich. Like, it gets back. We've mentioned this a couple times before. I've brought this quote up a handful of times because it's one of my favorites that season three fight between Will and Mike, you know, which you know, I just love. I mean, did you think, what did you think really that we were never going to get girlfriends that we were just going

to sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives? Yeah, I guess I did. I really did. Like, it was pulled right back to that when this whole conversation opens by Will asking, like, how far are we going to be from Vegas? You know, we can go and we can get rich and we'll never have to work and we could just play D&D and Nintendo for the rest of our lives. And it's just a second before Mike actually really does open up to him, but there's still that like push-pull tension there where they just are not on the same page and don't quite know how to get there. And then to see Will, even though he is speaking, you know, nominally about 11 in that moment and really about himself, to see him be able to say some of these things out loud to Mike was

just like really rewarding. And Mike, I agree with you. Like he, it seemed to me like he missed a lot of it. It seems like he was touched and took the lesson the way that it applied to his life but didn't see what it meant for Will. I thought that Mike also, though, did have a really cool little moment where he's talking about how he just got lucky. Like he has the whole, you know, one day she's going to realize that I'm just some, some random nerd that got lucky that Superman landed on his doorstep. But he has the line before that about she just needed. someone. It's not fate. It's not destiny. It's just simple dumb luck. And he's saying it like it's a diminishment in some way of his role or their relationship. And of course, like that actually, ultimately, and this will be one of the things that Mike needs to embrace, makes it more powerful. Because it isn't fate. It isn't destiny. No other force. No, you know, to use a devsism, like tram track brought them together. They chose to build that together. Did you just watch devs? This is the second time I've heard you bring up devs on a podcast. No. I watched the one.

I just love the whole, you know, choice destiny dynamic. I'm so funny. I found that show. The outcome of it, I was like, oh, boy, I don't know how this aligns to my personal philosophy, but I thought it was a rich intellectual and philosophical text. Sorry, it's just funny. I was just listening to The Big Pick where you brought up Devs. And I was like, did not I just watch Dev?

It's such a funny reference. Okay. I'm really down on Mike this season, I will say. Yes, yes. Part of it is probably watching his arc at the same time as I'm watching Huey's arc on The Boys. I was just going to ask you about this. Yeah, the Boys is doing this really interesting exploration of, like, toxic masculinity in its various different flavors. And this toxic masculinity as it applies to, like, nice guy insecurity and Huey, I feel it echoing through Mike so strong.

And so, like, when he was saying all that, I just didn't have a lot of. of space for it. And maybe that's not fair. Maybe it's unfair to be applying the lesson from another show over to this show. But I was just sort of like, and he's just not seeing Will at all. And I find that unbearable. I find it unbearable for Will to say, you are the heart of this team. And like, the painting is, you know, to talk about Will's perpetual adolescence.

Because Will, no shnapp has said, like, when asked about Will's sexuality or whatever, everyone seems to be kind of like demuring and not really wanting to put too fine a point on it. But like what Nooshnab has said is like, you know, Will is locked in this perpetual adolescence because he was, you know, in the upside down and sort of just to step out of time with his friends and just sort of like miss the boat and is locked. And so like for him to like make this painting of their D&D campaign and show it, you know, it's a it's a lovely like painting. but this is a very juvenile gesture, right? It's very sweet, but it's very juvenile at the same time. And I don't really mean that in a negative way. It's just like that's where Will is.

This is how he knows how to express himself. And of course, it's the 80s. And it's impossible. It feels impossible for him to express how he's truly feeling in an open and honest way. But I just think it's interesting that that 11 isn't in that painting. And we talked about this in Volume 1, that like as much as 11, you know, 11 and Will share like a beautiful little hug later in this episode.

But like, I still think Will feels like it was all better when before 11 got there and they were just four boys playing D&D together. And there's also that idea that left out of,

and again, Daniel Zazario talked about this in his variety review. And as a queer man, he can speak to this much better than I can. But like this idea of being like a queer teen and,

you know, and not out and watching, all of your friends, your straight friends couple up, and you feeling left out of an important right of passage, an important part of growing up, because you cannot connect to that the way that they are. And that's all profoundly affecting.

But Mike, like, but to that end, however the show is supposed to feel about Mike, this is how I feel about Mike. And I'm not stressed about it because, like, who among us has not pinned their hopes on someone who is completely unworthy and not paying attention to us at all? I'm not even convinced

that Mike is paying attention to 11. Like, I really think Mike is just paying attention to himself and his own, like, hurt feelings, honestly. Oh, man. I have so many follow-up thoughts. So I think that the, hearing you talk about, um, that state of, of adolescence, it makes me think of one of the things we learned in volume one when Nancy was exploring the wheeler home and the upside down and like learning that it, that it was literally frozen

in time down there and how that idea, um, more. more symbolically could apply to will and the way that something about his life is really just anchored. And how could it not be to this foundational fulcrum moment in his existence? Like what a traumatic thing to be taken into the upside down by the mind fire. And I think that like, so I thought the painting, one of the things that was really interesting about it, you know, and you just, you referenced a few minutes ago that one of the things we learned in volume one is when Elle is writing her letter to Mike and recounts that idea of the crush. Well, one of the things we hear here is Will say that Elle was the one who asked him to

paint this and like commissioned it. That feels like a lot, a lie to me, right? Yeah, it's like, oh, I don't know. I mean, it was, it was, it was, there was something about the way he delivered it where it was, yeah, like on, I think we're meant to wonder, right, at least if that's exactly the truth. And the fact that she's not in it definitely feels notable. I thought that the, again, I think I'm just so, one of the reasons that I am just so

invested in will and partial toward him and feel so tenderly toward him is like this idea just more broadly of not quite being ready to let go of this thing that was like sacred and precious to you and seeing everybody else move on from it just feels like one of the most relatable aspects of the story and of growing up, right? And Stranger Things is a lot of different things, but it is a coming of age story most of all. And like, there are so many things in my life that I'm like, man, I like this thing more now that I'm 35 than I did when I was 15. Like, when I interrogate that, the thing I always come back to is because it's something that I now share with the people I care about more than I did when I was young, right?

or like it allows me to think about the moments when I got to do that when I was young. And so I just think that's just like such a lovely part of Will's arc. And I agree with you that the moment's where it feels like Mike either doesn't see that or a kind of actively resist it. Just like deeply painful. And again, also feels very true to life and and to the way that you try to hold on to something as it's like slipping away from you. the fate, destiny, dumb luck thing, I definitely, like, latched onto that last part of that quote much more than the she doesn't need me opening.

And I did have the same Huey thought as you. And I wanted to ask you about that. So I'm just glad you brought it up. I guess I'll, I'm finding Mike certainly less compelling than many of the other characters this season. In that particular moment, again, the more charitable read that I guess I can offer is, or a distinction between Mike and Huey at least is,

I didn't get the sense from Mike that he was saying, I need to be able to be the one who fixes this or who saves 11. Like, I took that to be needing him just like as a person, a person in his, in her life who she cares about. Not like needs me to save her, needs me to help. But I do think, I do think that Mike would, immediately take Temp V if it meant that he could

show up and be a superhero alongside 11. Absolutely. 100%. For sure. Watch the boys. What a great show. Also, I have more to say about this, but we'll talk about it in our next podcast about the show. I have a lot more to say about this.

But I do think that quote where Will is speaking, he's covering his crush by putting it in Mike's actual girlfriend's voice, right? She feels this way. And maybe if she did this, is because she was afraid of this, blah, blah, and this idea being different.

But drawing that line between his queerness and her otherness, you know, just makes you think of like 11 has always been like such a clear X-Men comp, right, a mutant cop, right? And so just thinking about like the long history of the X-Men as sort of analog for marginalized people, And then very specifically the 2000s movies and how they made that like a direct queer sort of comparison. It's an interesting moment to lock the two of those stories together in this scene, you know? And then I'm just going to just shout out my brocacho Argyle before we leave the California crew and say I still am fully enjoying him. And I'm a big fan. That's all.

He's a delight. Are we sure Nina is a small one? woman. That's just... It was a reasonable question to ask, and frankly, someone should have raised it sooner. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers? Oh yeah. They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the meta pant. That's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions.

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Sort of like thing. And then 11 passes out. Spoiler alerts for the Obi-1 Kenobi show. Very similar to the way Luke Skywalker bumps his noggin. And like just kind of forgets everything, right? I had this thought. And then one of our listeners tweeted at me in the We Small Hours in the morning about this,

but I genuinely had this thought. Speaking of the boys, Paul Reiser fans are eating very well right now, right? Because Paul Reiser in this show, Paul Rise are crushing it over on the boys. So good. I've been a Paul Reiser fan my whole life. He obviously was drafted on to Stranger Things

because of his role in aliens. And his initial plot line is much more similar to his alien role. But what he's doing now here is very akin to this little-known sitcom that he was a part of that I was a big fan. I was a kid called My Two Dads, where it's about a girl who has two dads, one of them is biologically related to her, but they don't know which, and so they both race her. And Paul Reiser's like this square uptight one, then there's like the cool fun dad. So watching Brenner and Owens, like My Two Dad their way through this whole 11 plot line absolutely sent me to the

moon. I thought it was really funny. They're both like rockin vests and just like really living their best dad lives in this lab as they argue over what's best for 11. How did you feel about the various papas that we get in this episode? You know, I'm a big fan of Dr. Sam Owens. I loved it in terms of that two dads dynamic. The, you know, well, that went very well, I thought, mocking, the mockery of the way that Papa just has absolutely no, like quite low. Like, quite literally in this in this stretch bedside manner just does not. And it's a fascinating part of his character because, as we see in many high tension moments in this episode, he is so often trying to sweet talk and silver tongue his way to his desired

outcome. But his greed and lust for power is so ever-present and is capable that it's impossible to believe him for a minute, even in his most fervent gaslighting and manipulation at times. right? So I've had a lot of like, why would Sam Owens align with this guy even for a second questions, even though it is, you know, actually explained over the course of this season and we know that he's trying to save the world and thinks 11's the one who can do it and recognizes on some level that he's made a little bit of a bargain with the devil to try to achieve this. It's he's a, he's a delight. There's a lot of like Papa 11 dialogue that was,

was really interesting and, like, connects to a lot of the themes that we've discussed throughout the course of our Stranger Things discussions. I, you know, the episode ends with his death, what we should say? And I don't want to zip a head through all of the exchanges because I think they're worth discussing. But I'm just curious, like, as a big picture tone setter for the Papa 11 portion of this, what vibe did you think we were meant to get? Like what emotional beat did you think the end of the episode was pushing on us?

Oh, okay. Well, let me say the full arc is a little bizarre to me because I almost thought that 11 had already gone through this journey. But it feels like she, who among us hasn't, sort of regresses into this like being manipulated by Papa. Then she's like, she has this moment. it's a very Empire Strikes Back Luke in Daegobah moment where she's like, I have to go save my friends and he's like, no, you have more training to do.

And if Yoda were a shitty gaslighter, he would have locked Luke in his mud hut and drugged him and then put a collar on him. But like what she had to learn, it feels like for herself and this, is that, you know, his true intentions, his true needs, that maybe are even not even apparent to himself

because I felt like in this moment when she's like, were you looking for Henry in the dark? And he's like, no, we were doing Soviet stuff. And I believe that he kind of believed that. Yeah, but like she knows better than he does that he was like looking for his big first mistake. Like he can't admit his true motives to himself. And he wants to believe that he's,

as he kept saying in this episode that he's doing the right thing and making the right choice and trying to protect. He is so insistent throughout that he loves her and cares for her. And obviously, we talked about this a lot last time, and I think it's central to this episode eight here. You know, this episode more so than even some of the others, does not allow you to forget for a second all of the horrific things that he's done, you know,

to 11 and to others. It's literally cut in and splice visually between a lot of these, like, grand proclamations of the, good intent, right? And, you know, one of the, it's interesting, because he does have a lot of lines that just felt like actually important to take note of in terms of the end game of the show. Like, there's that moment where he says, he's talking about Henry Vecna one. And he says, you must understand when one kills, he doesn't simply kill, he consumes, he takes everything from his victims, everything they are and everything they ever will be, their memories, their abilities. And we do not know

where he's been these lost years. But if he has survived this long, we can only assume he's grown in strength to underestimate him to act rashly would be very dangerous. And that's like a classic stranger thing. So just TV kind of moment, right? Where it's building up toward him

making the pitch for the thing he wants. But there's a lot there, even though broadly we disagree with his motive as a character. That feels true and right and actually essential for what our characters need to understand about the foe that they're going to face.

Like, we don't know where Henry was all those years. and who else he might have absorbed. Oh, absorb. Yeah. We've talked about that absorption before. Like, in volume one, we were talking about this idea that, like, if that's the case, if he's absorbing, like, you know, people as he go and stuff like that. I mean, he killed all of her brothers and sisters in the lab.

Does that mean he now has, like, the whole Charles Xavier School of Gifted Children, like all of their powers, all of their different powers, are in his power set now? I think so. You know? Yeah. He's like just like rogue, but he gets to hold on to the powers.

Like that's, that's scary. Yeah. I mean, to your point about these things that Brenner says that you're like, I should file this away for future. He says,

you will need to fly. And I don't know. This is what I was just going to wrap to you. Well, did this make you think of brand? It's just like, I thought of brand right away. And the,

I try not to think about brand. Well, this was the, This made me think of book brand. And one of my, one of the chapters that I reread the most often from all of a song of ice and fire is this brand chapter from a Game of Thrones after his fall. The chapter ends with him waking up and naming summer. Great stuff chills every time. But he is falling, falling, falling.

And he's having this exchange with the three-eyed crow. and just the language, you'll need to do more than run. You will need to fly and you're not ready. This Brenner language. It felt like, I don't know. We talk about this a lot. Like, I just feel like the stranger things, guys, the duffers, we're watching programs.

I've said this before. We're watching programs now that are created by the people who grew up reading and watching the same stories that we did, right? Like there's so much Harry Voldemort, Horrook-Crux connection stuff with Will and the Mind Flyer in season two, et cetera, et cetera, on the list goes. And this thing. I don't know. I was just like they want us to be thinking of this throne's chapter. Maybe not,

but the language choice just felt so deliberate. Like, not cry, fly. I can't fly, I can't fly, brand said. I can't. How do you know have you ever tried? And then one of my favorite passages in that chapter is I can't fly. You're flying right now. I'm falling. Every flight begins with a fall. The crow said, look down. And the reason I raised that is not because it is a perfect comp, because it is actually quite different in the sense that who is the three-eye crow for 11? Not Brenner, right?

Definitely not Brenner in terms of the intention that's driving this. And one of the things that feels really key for her arc and ongoing development as we've discussed is how she can move beyond this very strict and rigid

I'm either or. I'm this superhero or this monster and we hear a lot about the monster idea right again. And who can you trust? And like, so the end when Papa is reaching out for that last little drop of love and forgiveness and absolution, it's not like it's easy for her to watch him die. She seems very emotional and conflicted, but she doesn't give him what he's seeking. And I was so glad.

Yeah. I love that she wasn't cold, that she's obviously feeling something. But I was also just really glad, like, after all. all the gaslighting, all, you know, like, all the traumatic shit he does in this episode alone, grabbing her, drugging her, putting that fucking collar on her, you know, like, she's, like, she's a fucking dumb dog in a case of Amber, you know, like. And we had seen him do that to two and, like, and torture him in volume one. Exactly.

And, and neuter Henry in his own way, you know what I mean? And so it's just sort of like he's, you're not special and you're not different. Like, you might think you're the exceptional. You might think, oh, I'm Papa's favorite. I'm the daughter. No, he's going to treat you the way that he's treated everyone else. And so for her to not give him that because he doesn't deserve that at the end of it all. I really loved that for her.

That being said, I thought some of the helicopter stuff was like unnecessarily showing off their budget, showing off the length of the episode. And there's just no tension. And you're like, okay, Brenner might die here or not, but I don't much care. care, yeah. Exactly. And so, like a character we thought was dead for a long time, first of all, and came back. And also, like, someone we would, not to sound like a bloodthirsty maniac would, like want to see fall in the course of events of this show. And like, you kind of know, you know that 11's just going to like bring that helicopter down out of the sky. Like, you know that that's going to happen. And she's going to be fine. And so it's just sort of like, it felt it lacked all tension for me. And so then it just felt like, like, budgetary flexing for budgetary flexing sake. And that's, that's, that's. That's. That's. That's the moment in these super long episodes where I'm like, you're just flexing right now. And like, you know, no harm, no shame in the game, I suppose. But like, if I were to cut something out, it would be this long sequence of a helicopter that doesn't matter. That being said, you only have eyes for one helicopter and it's Katinka.

She's unsullied. Argyle shrieking. Is that blood man? It's like a real high point for me. I love that. Oh, my God. Love him. Anything else?

We want to say about 11 and Papa and all of that before we roll along? I don't think so. Okay. Rest in pieces. You piece of shit. I'll just say, I guess, last thing. It seems like Sullivan took a really long time to get back outside. Also, I guess...

I mean, we don't know what's going on with Owens. But as far as you know, he's still alive. So good for Paul Riser. Please keep collecting those stranger things paychecks. All right. Here we are to the real meat of the matter as far as I'm concerned, which is Team Hawkins, my favorite, my best friends. Love them.

And they go shopping for guns. And not my favorite activity, but hey, I've never had to face down Vecna in a mine palace before. So there we go. This starts with Nancy sort of picking up right where we left, off, but Nancy is in, I really liked the way that this started, right? We're like in the memory, in the 11, we think we're in the 11 part of the story, but we're still in the Nancy part of the story. And so when Brenner, when Matthew Modine with like those cloudy contact lenses turns around

and is like, Nancy, you're like, holy shit. I thought it was really, really good. And then, of course, it's cut with the height of comedy, which is Robin yelling at Eddie about his music taste. and asking where the Debbie Gibson is and him clutching an Iron Maiden cassette and streaking, this is amazing. It was fliss. Real Steve Allman energy.

I need to see Eddie's upside down playlist. That's what I need. It's all the time. Oh, my God. Great stuff. I loved it. So then Vecna does this thing where he shows Nancy his plans for Hawkins,

which she later relates to us. that Hawkins, like basically, we see flashes of images. Hawkins falling. That's what Brenner says to you. Hawkins will fall, right? And, you know, she says there's a giant creature, gaping mouth, so many monsters and army coming to our neighborhood, our home.

She mentions her mom. She mentions her kid's sister that we barely ever remember exists. She mentions her mom, Holly, and Mike, but not dead. The toughest. There's only one fan of Ted Wheeler and is Mallor Rubin. Mallor Rubin is Ted Wheeler's number one fan. Oh, my God. I just, uh, I got such a kick out of Ted.

He's the worst. What did you think about the fact that what Nancy said did not align with what we saw? I thought that was fascinating. Like, I, well, I liked it because, um, I've talked about this before elsewhere, but like, if you show us the dress rehearsal for something, I know we're never going to see the final performance of something. So I like that we've got these flashes of one thing and then Nancy telling us another thing. And so we're not really sure those of us who watch too much television, like, what we're going to get.

Are we going to get what Nancy said? Are we going to get the flashes of what we saw? Like, are we going to get none of it? Like, what's going to happen? I like those things together. What did you think? I mean, I want us to like circle back to after we finish the season to break down the exact language. in the like frame by frame of the clip.

I think honestly there's like, there's the story analyzing and then there's the, what you said earlier about them updating the episodes. There was some part of me that was just like, well, I guess I'm glad we didn't get the like, you can go frame by frame and figure out that they're going to blow up the sept,

you know, if you see the wildfire. And then like, no, as a Stranger Things fan that they don't have the effects finish for this episode yet, let alone, like know what they're going to do for season five, episode eight, you know, So don't show us something that you're going to need to change 500 more times. I thought that was fine. But I just thought it was interesting because they could have shown us nothing.

But we do see these like the maws of the spreading gates and a lot of like fire imagery. But we don't see her mom or Holly or the monster or any of those specific things. So it was just, it was interesting. Yeah, yeah. I like that idea that like remember that shot in Thrones? I love that we're talking about Thrones and I can't wait to talk to you about it full time. Remember that like the very first vision shot, which is the shadow of the dragon over King's Landing. And when you look at it now, like compared to what it actually looked like when the dragons come to Kings Landing, it just looks like so quaint and season one budgetary.

And like they would still splice it in and later like montages, but you're like, eh. That's a season one vision. Okay. I love it. I love it. But the thing she says that we did see is he showed me gates, four gates spreading across Hawkins. And then we get the whole four times. Gates, end of the world, four chimes.

Max saying he's been telling us his plan this whole time. Has he? I don't know. Max's like four chimes of the clock. Of course. Four gates, four kills. He's been telling us this plan this whole time. They did. Thinking back, they did. Am I correct? Is this wrong? Arjuna or Steve? Someone tell me if I'm wrong.

They numbered the teaser trailers, right? And there were four? And they like specifically numbered them? Probably. Have you seen the poster? Have you looked at the season four poster since it's cut up into these four sections. It's season four, of course. We've been following four storylines. Every time I do a notes breakdown for one of these episodes, it's in four chunks for four

storylines. So, yeah, they've been... They've been telling us their pen. They've been telling us their pen. They've been telling us their plan. Over the course of the show. Oh, my God. All right. Four different love interests for Steve Harrington. It all fits. It all comes together. All right. Dustin over the general, right, says they they can use what they know about Levin's weaknesses to attack Bechda.

I thought that was really smart. And then we get this moment, you know, where Max offers herself up as bait. And she calls herself cursed. What did you think of this moment? I thought that this was quite sad. She says that she can still feel him, which, again, made me think of, like, a lot of what we've heard over the seasons, season two in particular, from Will, you know, touching the back of his neck even later. Back in the neckerb. The way that this connection,

and, you know, so often the idea of a hive mind comes up. And the way, I think it's important when the show reinforces that it's very difficult to detach once you have been a part of this in any way. But it was heart-wrenching to hear Max say, I've still marked, still cursed, because, and we, you know, we chatted about this a lot in the Dear Billy episode, reading her letter at his grave. Like, Max has been through a lot,

as so many of the characters have, and I just love her and care deeply about her. And it's heartbreaking to hear her talk about herself this way and think about herself this way. And even though she's acting with, like, a lot of confidence and conviction, right? I'll be okay. I did this once.

I can do it again. And there's this, like, you know, exchange about, the light, you know, that she's trying to calm Lucas and says, it's like he only sees the darkness in us. And that's so that's what's painful about it is like when Max is setting on Marked on curse, it's like a moment where she's almost talking about herself the way that Vecna is thinking about them. But then it's important to see her break through that, right? So she says, I'll just run in the opposite direction, run to the light. We talked a lot in volume one about like the Petronus corollaries with the pull of the song and the pull of the.

the powerful happy memories. I think, you know, in part because we're just coming off of our Obi-1 Canobi run, this description here really made me think of one of the through lines of that show in our discussions about that show, like the light and the dark, right? And the Leo Obi-Wan exchange about the force and like, what does it feel like? And Obi-1 saying, have you ever been afraid of the dark? How does it feel when you turn on the light? I feel safe.

And like the idea that their friendship could be like the power of the force for them, you know, lovely. I love that. I love that. I'm of course never going to miss an opportunity to quote Rose and Last Jedi talking about we're going to win this war not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love. We kind of talked about that concept when 11, when we talked about the end of volume 1 with 11 choosing to access this love memory of her mother rather than taking Henry Vecna 1's advice of focusing on the pain and anger. as a source of your power. I just want to say,

I think Sadie Sink has been so good this season, incredibly good. She's always been good, but she's incredibly good this season. I think Caleb McLaughlin also, like in this scene with her in the back of the Winnebago that they steal, is such relatable content to me

when he was like, am I in that memory? That's amazing. I loved that. Anyone would either ask it or if they didn't have the courage to ask it, they'd be thinking it. Anyone. Oh, my God.

I was just, I was just, like, thinking of, like, when I've been dating someone and they make, like, a spot, a new Spotify playlist or something. Again, Spotify did not pay me to say that, but a Spotify playlist, right? Let's say. And I'll be like, oh, is that, is that song choice about me? Is that song choice about me? And, like, sometimes, yes, sometimes no. When it's no, you're, like, crushing.

When it's yesterday you're like, oh, I thought so. Let me, let me just. pour over all of these lyrics so I can find a meeting and it, you know, but like Lucas saying, you got a memory of mine. So I thought that was really, really sweet. Obviously, the stealing of the Winnebago, really fun. Eddie Munson and ongoing delight. Eddie, who we predicted was going to die right away at the start of this episode,

saving Nancy from the episode down, did not happen. End of episode eight. Eddie, with us the whole way, a delight. A joy, every action shot, every line read. I'm a huge Eddie Munson fan. Love the Winnebago theft. It's great. I mean, terrible to steal somebody's, as they even say,

car and home. Terrible. Is it worse to steal someone's car and home, as Robin points out? Or, as Hans Solo does in the film Solo, steal Linna Calrissian's car and girlfriend, which are one and the same, and home. Car home, girlfriend, all at once. Yeah. Anyway.

Well, she belonged with him, you know. That's what he would tell you about the falcon. So I thought of Han when the, when we crawl down into our escape tunnel, because there's like a never tell me the odds moment, you know, a call back to their one in a hundred thing. Eddie Steve, Robin, Dusset, all of them together. Just wonderful. It is the best. I'd say like 87% of our texts during Stranger Things season four have been about how much more time we want to spend with that specific group of characters.

I said this to you already via text. I'm going to pitch it here. I love the television program hacks, and I won't spoil hacks. I'll just say I know they're no longer in the drive-in and the tour bus stage of things. I don't care. Let's bring it back, bring the tour bus back for season three.

This is the group that takes you around from show to show. Follow-up suggestion. And I think we also talked about this via text, a prequel to season four series where we spent with Robin and Steve in the video store. This is something actually that we frankly deserve. And let's just retcon in that maybe Eddie Munson is like they're never one customer. So Eddie's always in the shop.

And then Steve and Robin are also there talking about movies. It's the show we absolutely deserve. Speaking of Stephen Harrington. I'm talking about the nuggets. What do you make of Steve Harrington, Winnebago Dad? I mean, listen, I every now and then. You know, I try to be measured. I try to be sensible and well-reasoned every now and then.

Occasionally some hyperbole will seep in. This is one of my favorite moments in the history of television. Television ever. Storytelling ever. I'm talking like a full... Your entire life. Harrington's like five, six kids, six little nuggets. It was so sweet to see him talk about how this dream that he had of every summer

his family piling into the Winnebago and just seeing the country and sharing this exploration and this adventure together. And when Nancy said, that sounds nice. And he turned her and he was like, yeah, with just such yearning. It was so, so, so sweet. I just love Steve so much. Also, we have mentioned many times how much we love a good needle drop. Fire and rain playing during this exchange? That's one of my favorite songs. I love James Taylor, and that's one of the best James Taylor songs there is. This was a joy. The Winnebago Heist starts with CCR.

I also banger. I also love CCR. The thing I love knowing about you, Mallory, and we can talk more about our love of the oldies if you want to, but like is your absolute commitment to dad rock. Like, that's who you are down to your-100% to my core. Are you like a, are you Steely Dan as well? Like, do you fuck with Steely Dan? I enjoy Steely Dan. I mean, Dylan is my absolute favorite, as we've discussed before.

I'd say that... God, I'd have to really think about my overall power ranking. CCR is top three, though. Like, CCR is a real, a real top of the list for me. We're going to add some CCR tour, karaoke tour as well. I love this for us. I want to say the thing about Steve, so like beyond the Steve Nancy Jonathan Love Triangle business, which continues to slightly confound me.

What I love about this is Steve is like, this is my dream. And then he sort of faints to it when he says, like, if only I had some practice. But, like, you have that, Steve. You are already the Winnebago dad. Like, you have your found family hair. And, like, I love that for him. It's really wonderful. You're actually living your dream.

Sure, there are monsters here, too. But, you know. Yeah. And, like, he was, he's, I mean, that right away, that magic of him and Dustin being together in season two was just one of the real, like, they've unlocked some discovery, sacred alchemy and stuff. But even as his arc has progressed in this way, and he has moved so far and evolved so far beyond the character we met at the very beginning of season one,

there are still these like, why am I always stuck with you little like regressions and very normal, natural things. Yeah. And to see a moment of pure recognition that like the thing that he wants is just to be surrounded by people he loves and who love him, which is so wonderful. Another, and it also like, you know, there are a lot of great moments between Steve. even Robin, where they're talking about Robin's sexuality and her love life and what she wants. And she had a great moment in this episode where she said, in the face of the world ending,

the stakes of my love life feel spectacularly low. And the thing that I really adored about that is that that's not true, right? In a couple different ways. It's not true in the sense that like these characters holding on to that connection to each other, again, as Will, like literally says that aloud in this episode, that heart is what allows them to move forward and allows them to so often win. But I just like, I also just genuinely, this is not just like a classic ringerverse

contains adult content like sex joke bit. I actually really like the fact that the characters and stranger things are always, always, always thinking about sex or who they're going to date. Like in the face of really catastrophic stakes and scenarios, they just want to know who they're going to dance with at the snowball. And again, that just feels like the most human and relatable thing.

Like, think of the moments in your life where something was weighing on you or you had to figure out a way to do something or achieve something or push your way forward. And you're like, just thinking about like the person you want to hook up with, right? That's just like the most relatable content. I love it. It also feels just very like, like, goonies, right? Like, there's this, that's a constant, that's like a threat of goonies. That's a threat of like a lot of the stuff.

It's like a very 80s kids adventure thing is that, like, obviously we're also thinking about, like, our crushes and our boyfriends and our exes and, like, and all of that sort of stuff. And I just, I love- The escape from Hoth is not complete without Han and Leah discussing their sexual tension in the hallway, right? It's just not. If we're on the Empire comp. But, like, the, Robin's seeing her crush, Vicki, who we had already met in volume one, but it never looked more like Molly Ringwald in her life. if we're talking about 80s legends, than she does in this gun and ammo shop that she is on a date with her boyfriend visiting from school.

Everyone in Hawkins is at the war zone at the same time. Disturbing. And that makes sense because it's like off the back of Volume 1 where Jason sort of, you know, stirs up the town, stirs up the mob and is like, you know, very guest on, kill the beasts about it, you know? So like you've got to get your pitchfork somewhere. And I guess the war zone is where you're going to go for your,

you're, you're, what, they have like ammunition, black powder, like, whatever, whatever you could possibly want that disturbs me. The thing that I love that is a theme through all of this war zone, the name of this, this terrifying store, is Erica. And I love putting this in this like, like, this young black woman who is just sort of like, I'm sorry, you want me to go among the angry hicks of Hawkins where there are guns everywhere? I don't. don't think so. I don't think so at all. And I love that she's the voice of that. And of course, they encounter the jocks here. Nancy has this interaction with Jason at the ammo counter. Like, awful, terrifying. And then we, and then we, and then we're, we get an arming ourselves

montage. Everyone's broken up into little pairings. Truly, like, really, the sweetest out of all of them, there's a lot of sweetness. You already mentioned Robin and Steve, that stuff is great over some Molotov cocktails. For me, it was Lucas and Erica because that relationship we don't always get to spend time with other than annoying little sister, but to sort of have them

bond as siblings to take a moment for that. I really loved. Even though you're a bench riding loser, you're still my brother, just the facts. That was really, really special and wonderful. I agree, all those pairings were delightful. And again, the Hawkins, this grouping and this plot

It's just so consistently wonderful minute to minute. It's hard to be away from these characters. I also loved, loved the Eddie Dustin moment when they're kind of like rough housing. And, you know, Eddie gets his like, Eddie the baddish, there will be no more retreating. Big moment, a big speech. And then he just has this really earnest, really pure, never change. Dustin Henderson promised me moment. And Dustin says I wasn't planning on it.

And it's just so lovely. Like their bond and the whole dynamic with Dustin and Eddie and Dustin and Steve in the way that a little initial jealousy and like, how could you, hey, I like you. So how could you like that guy ended up bearing out? And Steve and Eddie having this really lovely bond and that idea we talked about in the cafeteria sequence in the beginning of like this divide between the nerds and the jocks and all these different factions. It's like, well, these people can't actually get along if they take. the time to get to know each other. And I thought that that was present too. And the other part of that

Robin Steve sequence is, is after they move on from the love lives, Robin's saying, like, not everything has a happy ending, right? And she just says, like, this is such a key, elemental fantasy story idea. We have to try. Like, we have to try. That's Frodo standing up and saying that he'll take the ring, you know? It's Harry thinking about a double door saying, fight and fight again. Like, it's against just Obi-Won top of mind. Like, it's the, the Tala lesson to Ben and Leah. Like, that is just present in so many of the stories that we care about.

The odds might be extraordinary. But if you're a hero who we're going to root for, you have to be willing to try. So that whole stretch was great. I'm going to need, I'm going to need some intel on whether or not that Robin is a theater kid, because she has a line here and I already texted you about this, but she says, I think we're mad fools the lot of us. And no one other than a theater kid has ever said something like that in their lives. I hear that in a, I told you already.

I thought it was very like middle earthy. And I hear that in Sam, Sam Wise Gamji's voice. I just can't you hear Sam saying? No. No, you're not even said like an elf would say that. Not even a Hobbit would say that. That's like an elf thing to say. Oh, my God.

We're going to wrap up here. say this. Are you going to sing me journey? We got journey. I'm not going to sing you journey, but I'm going to say this. I started this off by saying, in the long pause between volume one, volume two, I sometimes get, like, protective of TV writers and, like, of their fandoms trying, like, kind of getting unruly about or with their expectations. But then sometimes I will say, TV writers ask for it. And here's a moment where they're asking for it. When Will says, L, who's going to die? And then we cut to. The Winnebago crew, starting with...

And slowly pan on this. Starting with Steve and going from there. And you're like, okay. All right. They are inviting this, obviously. And then the journey kicks in. And it ends with Max and the Sinclair's walking up to the murder house, which I thought was a great place to end it.

The journey needle drop was phenomenal. And a great way to get, like, hyped up for the finale. Anything else you want to say before we go? I don't think so. A great perfect needle drop. Here we stand. worlds apart. My heart will be broken in more than two, if anything ever happens to Steve, certainly. But a fun episode, interesting episode. I'm excited to be back with you in a couple

days to talk about the extraordinarily long movie link finale. We're not going to do a ton of Easter eggs because I actually don't have a ton for this episode and we've already hit on most of them. I will say the Michael Myers mask coming back from season two is like a fun little Easter egg, but like really the most unnecessary donning of a mask because he just wears it to like scuttle across the trailer park very briefly and then takes it off. So that just felt like remember this from season two moment, which is fine. That's fine. Wanted murderer on the run. But yeah, he did take it off very quickly. I mean, yes, but like there was no one about in the trailer park. He's like scuttling around. There's no one there. And anyway. Well, the family who's home he stole.

Speaking of which, speaking of which, it's time for Secret School Watch. And I would say there are scrolls in this episode are definitely Ma and Pa, Winnebago, right? Oh, I love this. 100%. Yeah. Do you have anyone? No, I'm going to, oh, I'll go with the soldier who comes in to find Owens. And we have that brief moment.

We just want to talk. We were like, wow, Solomon got there quickly. And then we realized Papa has turned that guy. Yeah. I might nominate Sullivan as well. I'm not sure. He's on my list. Okay.

That's it for us. But we will be back so soon. You're going to get a one, two, three, house of our episodes in a row. It's Miss Marvel, Stranger Things Volume 1, Part 1, Part 2, whatever you want to designate the finale. We're wrapping it all up, this season of Stranger Things on Monday. So we'll be back for that. Wednesday, of course, the Midnight Boys, we'll be back, talk about the boys and Miss Marvel,

and then Miss Marvel, Thor, all of that. We will be here in your feed of very special things, as always, on this lovely Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend. To our June and Ray Papal for his production work, he, along with us, sort of marathon, all these episodes so that we could bring this to you day of release. so thank you to Arjuna. And of course, to the incredible, we understand what his upside down playlist would be. Steve Olman for his production work on this episode.

Anything, am I forgetting anything in the sign? Steve Hellfire, Allman, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I think we did it. Way back for the finale. Protect all Steve at all cost. We got a phone number, set aloud on this television program

in this sequence. Do you think we should call it? Who do you think is on the other line? Do you want to call it right now? I wrote it down. Should we call? Okay. Go ahead. Well, how does technology work? Extreme over dieusain voice. Technology. What if I call? Will anyone be able to hear? How does it work? Call use speakerphone right next to your microphone. Okay. All right. But we'll go through my headphones? That's my worry. Is your phones connected to your headphones? Yeah. It's all. What if you turn the Bluetooth off on the phone?

Okay. Who needs producers? I work on the Internet. When we have ourselves. This is just, this is, this is tough. Okay, let's see. Hopefully this wasn't one of the things they went in and fixed after, and this is the wrong number. And I'm calling into a like fishing scheme or something.

Your call can now be completed as dialed. Oh. Add the number and dial again. Sad. All right, Steve, can you cut all that? You can't reason. with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can

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