House of R - 'Stranger Things' Season 5, Episode 7 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: December 27, 2024

Mal and Jo are back in the Upside Down to dive deep into Episode 7 of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5, Volume 2! 0:00 Intro6:10 Opening Snapshot22:28 "Chapter Seven: The Bridge"2:16:45 Theory Corner Prepare for one last adventure at Target. Visit target.com/StrangerThings Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducer: Oscar De La Luz and Tucker TashjianSocial: Alysha TsujiAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

To a very special holiday, we're in our pajamas edition of House of Art. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, Bedectin flannel. It's Mallory Ruvin. Mallory, how are you doing? Snookums, you mad, mad genius. There's nobody else I'd want to be recording with for multiple hours on a holiday other than you. Great to see you as always, my darling.

My dear, my darling one, we're here to talk about Stranger Things Season 5, Volume 2, part two, aka episode 7. Yep. Of Stranger Things, season five. I mean, we're basking Christmas cheer. It's true. The New Year's is on the horizon. We have only one more episode of Stranger Things left in the world. And so we have a lot to talk about.

And we're going to get into all of that after this. This episode of House of R is presented by Target. Stranger Things has returned to Target and it's time to visit Hawkins for the final time. Step back into the 80s with righteous exclusives like a funco pop of Steve. in the Squawk van, the epic squawk satin bomber jacket, and the Stranger Things you may upside down capsules shaped like a walkie-talkie. New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. All right, so as we mentioned before, we are covering Stranger Things episode seven today, chapter seven, the bridge, right? Written by the Duffers, directed by

Sean Levy, and also the Duffer Brothers. But also, team up. Episode 8. the finale is coming on New Year's Eve. That's right. Have we a million percent nailed down our planned coverage of that episode to our episode of television? No. But stay tuned because we have some ideas. Yeah. I mean, we'll be covering it.

It's just a question of when. We will be covering. We will be covering it. I also wanted to mention that, you know, over on the Presti's TV feed, by the time this episode come out, there should be an episode of the Prestige TV podcast with Mali Rubin and yours truly talking about the heated rivalry finale. So that is waiting for you at the cottage. I saw a bunch of memes over the last week of people saying like, I'm going straight to Hawkins, Indiana, and then I'm taking off for the cottage. Like, that's how people want to spend their holidays. And I say, that's great.

I love it. That's wonderful. Ideal. Anything you want to tease at the very beginning of the year that you're excited about, episodes we planned to do the beginning of the year, or since we didn't discuss it previously, would you rather not talk about it? No, I mean, January is going to be a delight. Yeah, let's tease away. We're going to do our annual House of Our Hype Draft sometime in January. That's always a blast. What a fun time that is.

Of course, we, as promised, we'll be covering Buffy season three at some point in January. You're almost done with? I have one episode left. One. It's not ready for it to end. What a wonderful season of TV. That has been. I can't wait to dive right back into my rewatch, my second time.

to prep for those pods. So that's coming in just a few weeks. So that's exciting. And then the Night of the Seven Kingdoms is coming. So Talk to Thrones is back. The House of our Deep Dives and to All Things Westrose just around the band. I mean, January is going to be an absolute bounty of podcasting goodness for us. I can't wait.

I could not be more excited. This episode is brought to by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boris Head just did that. bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the Friars turkey breast only from Borshead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite.

Borshead committed to craft since 1905. How can folks make sure that they don't miss any of that, Mallory Rubin? Thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend. Yeah. Follow the pod. You're like, when exactly will your finale podcast drop? Let me tell you the best way to find out. Follow the pod.

And then when it's there, it'll be there and you'll know it. It'll be there in your feeds waiting for you. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R in the Spotify app. Amazing. You can also, of course, follow the Ringerverse YouTube channel. While you're at it, follow the Ringervverse on the Social Media platform. If you're choosing, the Ringervverse is on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere.

So that's all wonderful. And of course, keep the emails coming. We want to hear from you on the Stranger Things finale. Tell us how you're feeling after the finale. What questions do you still have? How did it hit you and sit with you emotionally? How are you coping with our time in Hawkins? Concluding at last, send us all of your stranger things emails to hobbits and dragons

at gmail.com. And of course, send us your emails about anything else that you might want to hear us talk about next year. Buffy Season 3, Duncan Egg, all of that. any of it. Brilliant. Brilliant. All right. Spoiler warning. Season 5, episode 7, up through that. We have not seen the finale. We have no idea what happens the finale. We are with all of you in the dark, alone and scared, and wondering what's to come for our faves as they head into the upside down. But we don't know. But up through episode 7, anything that has ever had to do with Stranger Things on the table, except for,

I don't really have any stage show stuff that I really feel like is additive today. Is there anything that you want to talk to, Mallory? I think we talked about it all last pod. In the sectioned off first shadow section. So if you want to catch up on that or haven't yet, you can find that in the prior pot on episodes five and six. I don't think yet we have anything to add beyond what we covered there, though, obviously, it is still top of mind. And as we mentioned in our last pod, which covers episodes five and six of this season, we will have a rather robust theory corner section, right? Because, again, we've not seen the finale. We're with all of you wondering about how things are going to go for our faves.

So that is the plan at the end of the pod. If you're not into theories, don't worry. They might come up a little bit. I'm not promising that I won't hit any in real time as we go. Mallory promises nothing. Sometimes they're contextually relevant. I can't make a vow that I know I won't be able to uphold, but we will also hit them at the end.

Maybe some will come in real time in a way that feels appropriate. You know what? We're in pajamas today, you know? It's a holiday pajama podcast. Anything could happen. We are doing our very best. Okay. Should we go now to our opening snapshot?

Let's do it. I want to start with a couple. I mean, we did get a number of e-mails. from listeners who were, you know, up on the 25th, ready and willing and waiting to email us. So thank you so much for spending your holidays, emailing hobbits and dragons at email.com. We really appreciate you. First, I want to flag an email we got from our listener, Sarah, who after Karen Wheeler pulled her move with the oxygen tank in the dryer in previous episode, she pointed out that the

actress who plays Karen Wheeler, Carabono, did a laundry commercial for Tide, right? as Karen Wheeler before the season started, the podcast's Lord and Savior, Ted Wheeler, of course, use a golf club in his target ad. What, if anything, Mallory, should we read into Jonathan and Nancy's credit card commercial? Have we touched on that already in regards to like the wedding ring, their misaligned agendas, or is there something yet on the horizon? Or is that? I mean, I'm just, I'm unwilling to write it off after the laundry situation and the golf club situation. Yeah. What Easter eggs await us in Jonathan and Nancy's credit card commercial?

This is just a fantastic email. Great work from Sarah. Great work for the bad babies as always. I will freely admit that I had completely forgotten about the Blono Tide commercial until watching football on Netflix on Christmas Day where every single Stranger Things commercial was packed together into an ad break. which was a great way to revisit it. Really, you know, really made me crave of a catererate in a glass bottle.

It's working. It's working, folks. And so, yeah, the laundry, the laundry connection was like, oh, my God, look at this. Here we go. I think that the thing that feels top of mind in the Discover card commercial that Nancy and Jonathan have done has to be the flamethrower. Because there's this really, like, dramatic build to the flamethrower. We have seen as they're collecting their arms and then their artillery,

prepping for battle. you know, what is everybody armed with? What are they holding? Obviously, as we've chronicled at length across our many podcasts and we're recently reminded of when we had to cook those particles right back out of our Franken demo, heat, fire, really crucial when battling the hive mind. And so I have to assume that the flamethrower is going to play a very pivotal role at the end. Great call. I think that's the one. Are there any other commercials that were missing that starred actors in them? Like, because we have clues waiting for us. We had the Gatorade.

We had Target, Tide, Discover. No free ads from us, but these are all brands. Maybe there's something else. It's entirely possible. Speaking of no free ads, no free ads from us here on this podcast, but we did have several folks notice that your incredible husband, Adam, came through with the Hanukkah gift and got you the stranger's helmet from the acolyte.

So you can buy that for, I don't know if it's still available or if it's sold out, but Adam got right on top of it. Adam got it and Mallory has it and a lot of people noticed it. So great job Adam. Great job, Adam as always.

As I already told you via text, because I had mentioned on a recent pod, maybe our best fights of the century so far episode, I was like, man, I sure did talk about this helmet a lot and Adam never got it for me. What a rare miss. Yeah.

And when he gifted it to me, mere nights after that. He was like, how dare you? I can't believe you doubted. I can't believe you lost faith right at the end. Frankly, I agree. Yeah. What is Adam ever done to make you lose faith in his gift-giving ability? He got me some great strangers and sneakers as well on the on the no-free ads front. I got the I got the upside down Nike dunks. I got the Steve Harrington and Nike Air Max ones. Great stuff. Great stuff. I was thinking of wearing some of them today because I haven't yet more. I don't believe in wearing shoes inside, as you know. But I haven't yet worn them outside. And so I thought this could be one time to wear them,

but you can't, you're not, we don't put feet on the podcast. We're not. We're not putting our feet on Maine on the pod. Absolutely not. All right. Our listener Christina asked, and we've asked this before, but I think it's worth underlining, especially like in this episode when we're talking about Henry a good amount in a group planning setting. Christina asks, what is wrong with these adults not mentioning their relationship from high school with Henry and November 6? So November 6 aside. If that is canon, why haven't they mentioned or remembered anything relevant? It's bugging me more

than it should. Mallory, where are you on this? On the Hopper and Joyce went to high school with Henry and nobody's talking about it. Perplexing in a way, I can barely believe. I just don't understand it. I think that there's a lot of joy and nearing the end of the story, threads in our tapestry or lining value of having the adults and the kids teaming up together. It allows for many moments where Eleven and Hopper can have a conversation very naturally in the flow of the events of a given episode. Joyce and Will can do the same. Probably most crucially of all, Murray, Mr. Clark, and Erica can have very valuable exchanges.

Everybody's together. We're no longer like in our like fractured silo plots. Our character set has converged. We talked last pod for a while and I think we're both still feeling this about the the tradeoffs of that and the things that you're missing, you know, the more kind of like organic. We're not just a military unit charging it to battle. We're going about our normal day and life. Scoop and ice cream. We're studying for tests. Yeah, scoop and ice cream hanging out at the mall, etc. Go into class. And so in theory, if you're going to lose that aspect, that core aspect

of prior seasons, in order to put everybody into the fight together, it should be specifically because you want information like this to be able to be shared, in addition, of course, to the emotional catharsis and payoff of these long-running plot lines and relationships. So I'm just baffled that this hasn't come up. And it is, it's confusing particularly so given all of what we've already discussed at length across the prior pods about like how the stage canon is being incorporated or not. I mean, leaving stage canon aside, if we want to, for this purposes, we got a in show mention of the fact that Joyce and Henry were at high school together, right, when Max went back through the memory. So this is like, even if the stage show didn't exist, the show has made it clear that Joyce and

Henry Creel, even though it absolutely blows the timeline we previously understood out of the water. Yes. As of season five, they were in high school together and nobody's talking about it and it's very odd. Maybe it'll come up still. Maybe Max, you know, we're driving into battle at the end of the episode again. Spoilers at this point fully. we're driving into the upside down. We've loaded up the truck.

Everybody's in there. Everybody's getting ready. We're dodging bullets. Not everybody. Not everybody, but many people. Is it too late to be trading information at this point? Or is there still an opportunity for more information to come? And I guess that's a question in general.

How much time do we have left? Wouldn't it be so funny if Joyce or Hopper decided to bring it up like a mere seconds before? Oh, that's interesting. You know, I went to high school with Henry. Henry? Henry. We're bringing us up now? Okay.

Last one at least in this mailback section, I should say we have a couple more emails sort of like throughout the outline, but this is the last dedicated to the mailback section. Several listeners wrote in to say, how dare you invoke Rise of Skywalker in the sort of like the telescope wayfinder sort of connection that we made of aligning the cap to the Sith Wayfinder and the Rise Skywalker when of course Goonies did this before with the coin. Obviously, of course. Sure. Yes. We were just saying Rise of Skywalker. has ruined it. Goody's didn't even originated. I'm sure, like, a much older movie originated. Goonies utilized it. Goonies is of course text for stranger things. We're just saying,

and I believe the phrase Mallory used was Rise of Skywalker PTSD. And that's all, that's all, I just think it's ruined forever now. Thanks, JJ Abrams. All right, anything else? You want to say about that, Mallory? Okay, a reminder. It is still November 6th. This episode all takes place on the same day. That's wild, especially given like the massive amount of planning operation beanstock seems like it's going to require. But we can talk about that a little bit later. More importantly, Mallory, I mean, we already kind of talked about this last week. Is there anything you want to add to our how are we feeling about season five so far? Anything that episode seven changes in terms of what you were talking about last time? No, I think everything that I said last time still, you know,

feels like it holds. Obviously, in many ways, episode seven is a kind of classic calm. before the storm, resetting, battle prep, game planning, on the eve of the climactic circumstances to come. So on par with the Night of the Seven Kingdoms, one of our favorite Game of Friends episodes? If only Podger had been here singing, you know, if someone had had broken into, yeah, if instead of butthole surfers, we had gotten Jenny's song, you know, who knows, who knows how we would be feeling today. I think, like, and this is often the case, of course, when we get to the end of not only a season,

of mythology, rich and full TV, but certainly a series. Like, how much time do we have left to do everything that we have to do? And, you know, I thought it was interesting to see in the Duffers had an interview with Deadline. And they talked about a lot. Actually, I thought of you in many moments reading through the interview, but one of them was Titanic confirmed as, no surprise, as an influence for floating. on the table amid the rapidly falling, soon to be hardening goop, but also almost famous

in terms of like the plane ride and you think you're going to die. So what do you confess? So you got a little almost famous nod there in the deadline interview. Interesting. A Lester bangs drop in this episode. Indeed. Indeed. I support it. I love that. You have always, of course. But so here's what in this deadline article, the duffers had to say about what left to do in the finale. Quote, the goal is to tie up the remaining loose ends and answer any questions that remain. Ross teases. There are a few specifically big ones, Henry and his backstory, and then 11 and what this all

means for her and collie. Now, that quote in this article that is written off of, I'm sure, quite a long interview is obviously, I think, not a complete list of everything that is left to do in the finale. Of course. But I think it's an interesting encapsulation that there are some really big things. left to do and also for everybody watching at home, surely, and the level and depth of attachment that we have to all of these characters, so many small things. You know, one of them is obviously is anyone going to check on Ted Wheeler ever. Hi on my list. I don't know how many other people

feel that way. It's interesting kind of to think back on the flow of the season and how many of these big character beats and moments and conversations we've gotten between really central sets, duos or larger sets. You know, Steve and Dustin have reconciled now, for example. example, Jonathan and Nancy have broken through and said the things that they needed to say. That makes me a little nervous, actually, that the finale might be more oriented around like, we have to just get all of the lore stuff locked in. I would love to get answers on on the mythology front, as you know, of course. But I just really hope, I think my big hope for the finale is that there's enough time left to give us all of the insights that we're craving and that we

desire without losing the key space for those character moments that are so central to what has drawn us to stranger things across a decade of our lives. Speaking of JJ Abrams, this is actually JJ Abrams adjacent, but whenever a showrunner says, we're going to answer every single question and tied up every single loose end. To me, that sounds like post-loss finale PTSD for any showrunner because they do not want to be in the same position that Lost found itself in where people, fairly or unfairly were accusing that show of not answering any questions

and then that was just became its reputation like well they didn't answer this and they didn't answer that for me personally for my taste I care so much less I mean there are certain things that I want to answer this for I you know since they've been teasing Henry's backstory I do want you know to get all of this information so like that it's not like I don't want any

of that but I abhor the thought of inside the writer's room a massive checklist of we need to check off all of these questions and that swallowing airtime went to your point. What we care much more about and when I think something like the loss finale absolutely nails is emotional resonance and uplift and devastation and all and the heartbreak of saying goodbye. Yeah. Leaving your characters that you love so much.

Will they be okay in the future? You know, like all these other things. So it can definitely do both. I just get a little nervous whenever and they're. certainly not the first to do it, but whenever I hear a showrunner say that to me, it just sounds like they're scared of being accused of something, you know, by the people who watch TV a little differently than I watch TV, I guess is what I would say. That's why I shared the quote. That's my worry as well. And I will say this to pull me back out of the worry.

Now, I think the end of a series is different from the end of individual seasons. And it heightens that impulse that you're identifying. But when we've this has been one of the fun things. I think I always felt this in real time watching Stratured things, but this has been one of the really fun things in the rewatch and talking about each season together. They tend to nail the ends of these seasons. They tend to nail the finale's not only on the plot front,

but on the balance front and centering the characters. And like this was one of the things that I think we both really loved getting to highlight a talk about together is pulling yourself into like four to five moments that there shouldn't and maybe in other shows wouldn't. be room and space and time for and just like watch the never-earning story. Justin and Susie. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Dustin and Susie break into song and sing the never-ending story. So that's my dear hope is that there's still room for that signature, Stranger Things brew here at the end. And I hope that's the case, but I will say, like, having, you know,

part of the reason why we decided to slightly punish ourselves and do a podcast on the day after Christmas is we wanted to see like how people were reacting to these episodes because we recorded our first one you know before they dropped and so you know I spent the last I didn't do any work on Christmas my apologies to the world but I did this morning spend a lot of time on the various social sort of trying to troll through and get a sense of like how people felt about these episodes and the number one like like meme joke reaction that I saw was centered on people yelling at Max to run. And so that idea of which I

talked about last pot, yeah. But Max running or not running, which happens a few times, the lack of hustle for Max, fine. That pause to talk to Holly about what heroism inherent in her, all of that sort of stuff, which is a conversation we liked.

But we talked about sort of like it happened inside of a moment where you know, Dustin and Susie singing while we're waiting for Planks constant, there was something about the way they wrote that where like, be it, Joyce banging your head against the wall or whatever the case may be, where they're like, we realize that we don't have time for this.

And there's something about the way it happened with that Max Holly conversation of like, BTWs, you can't come with me. And we're going to sit here and talk about it for a little while. Brutal. That just like didn't work with that urgency of something else. So like, yes, they can do it. They very recently, in my view, didn't land the plane on that.

But hope springs eternal and all I want is for the finale to be great. So I'm hoping that it is. I really hope it is. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Episode 7 deep dive, shall we do it? Let's do it. All right.

Speaking of Miss Mayfield, Max wakes up. I'm going to get to the Lucas and Max stuff, which I think is very emotionally good as you tease last week. But first, I need to say this. Tell me. No one decides to tell Max's mom that she's awake. and we got a lot of emails about what's going on with Max's moms from listeners, right? Yeah. And a lot of people suggested, like, maybe her mom didn't survive the earthquake, the rifts or something like that.

I was like, okay, if that's the case, that's something Max should know, right? Someone should tell Max that her mom died while she was in a coma, maybe. Maybe Ted Wheeler can tell her when they decide to check on dead. God damn it. So, Max's mom's not involved. Nobody tells her that her daughter's awake as far as we see. Nobody talks, Max has no questions about her mom. They've just completely forgotten about a lot of these parents, right?

Like what's going on with Dustin's mom right now, right? Like what's going on with Lucas and Erica's parents? You know, like, yeah, like what's going on? Yeah, how are the Sinclair's? Right, how are the Sinclair? So like, I mean, if no one gives a shit about Ted, I guess there's like no chance that anyone's going to give a shit about Dustin's mom, but I care. But our listener, Rachel, wrote this, like, really funny piece about sort of like what

what's going on day to day in Hawkins in military occupied Hawkins like Max's mom who was already sort of like at the end of her rope like have it you know they were sort of in financially dire straits in season four did the rift swallow up where they were living it was right near a gate so it was right near a gate right what is she doing for work what is anyone what is everyone doing for work in military occupied Hawkins and basically Rachel was like what's the tax policy in post-occupied Hawkins, right? Like, what's going on? And I have a question with that, and we'll get to in a second as it pertains to Vicky. But like, yeah, these are questions. Again, you know, in their like checklist of these are questions people have. I don't know if they had what's going on with Max's mom on their list. But I just think if you're going to put a character in a coma for 20 months and we've met a parent over a couple seasons, then like, that should be part of the story you're telling. I don't know.

I mean, is this pinging for you or how do you feel about it? Yeah, because I think it's one of the things that across the seasons made the town of Hawkins, but also like the community of our character set and the world and universe of the show feel richer. Right. Like, we already have just because of our core, our party and then the expanded character set, we have plenty of reason to want to defend Hawkins, to want Hawkins to survive. We have been shown the Shire, right?

Yeah. That's like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's done. But it's been meaningful to understand, first of all, it's just been a comedy goal to have so many different reasons to say, do any of the parents know where their kids are at any point? But it's been meaningful to understand what each individual home life is like, I mean, we've even spent time with like Barb's parents. You know, we had a KFC dinner with Barb parents. We know they kept Barb's photo next to the toilet.

And I only have one or two pods left to say that. So I've got to keep mentioning it while I can. God damn it. But yeah, like, I think part of it is it added to the really just full sense of the world. And so that feels like in a moment where the story is in theory never felt bigger. It actually makes you feel smaller to not check in on those characters. But it does another thing. More importantly, I think even than that, which is make characters who people love for a lot of different reasons.

but I think a shared feeling is these characters, these kids who we've watched grow from middle school into high school and they felt isolated and alone and they have their party and their D&D games and they grow and they change and they grow apart and they make their way back together. Their hearts are so big and we've watched them struggle and learn and grow. The fact that they don't like care about their families and if they're okay is honestly just like disqualifying on the humanity front. So that is, I think, a miscalculation in terms of how we have been trained to think about how these people. Now, I acknowledge as I say that, literally every season, they're like, don't worry about where I am.

I'm not checking in on you. But we're like repeatedly reminded by Lucas that his theory is my theory is right. The word is this is it. It's go time. Erica and Lucas don't want to call. Call to say hi, I love you just in case. That feels like a missing beat. You know, literally the only person who's thinking.

this line is Derek, who's like, should we go home to be with our parents, maybe? Perhaps. Delightful Derek. Try to talk me out of delightful Derek being the MVP of the season. You won't. You won't. All right. Let's talk about this genuinely very beautiful and emotional reunion between Max and Lucas before I get there to some minutes I want to pick. We, we, the emotional shorthand that is when it's cold, I'd like to die by Moby, which they've used since season one. Yeah. Will's rescue and. season one, right? Max,

Max in season four, Max in Peril, nearly dying in season four. So it's just a shortcut to pain. Yep. Thanks so much. And then we get the like, I knew you were there. I always knew you were still there. I saw you waiting for me playing my song. You bored of it yet? Are you? Turns out the whole time I didn't even need it.

I just needed you. Just you. Now listen. Last week did I say, I really don't like how the music was the anchor. It was so important this whole time. And then just kidding, it's not important. Holly, you can get home without it. Did that bother me last last time? Yes. Do the actors absolutely deliver on this like constant-esque, um, penny you answered. I just need you. Just you. I promise. I promise. I swear. Um, yeah.

You know, and I've talked about this before. Like, I think Sadie, I genuinely think of the young performers. Um, I think Gaten and Sadie and Caleb, all three Broadway kids are just like, Yeah, they're amazing. Heads and shoulders above everyone else. I just think they're so good. And we're so lucky that they put Sadie and Caleb together when they did. And their stuff in season four was just extraordinary. And, you know, so to finally get the two of them getting to talk to each other with love and respect to Holly Wheeler just like meant a lot to me.

So this was like really hit me inside of a scenario I found baffling and upsetting. As you know, I was really irritated about everything that happened in that laundry room, but their emotional reunion was very important to me. Yeah, and this was sort of what we talked about at the end of last pod, that there was an emotional truth that not only was acceptable, but actually quite powerful inside of the sort of messy storyboard mechanics and sequencing of what we got there. And this is, I think, further evidence of that. I also thought that the scene between Lucas and Max was wonderful and extremely.

extremely touching and moving. I loved also on the needle drop front, the, like the segue, the transition, the morphing from running up that hill into the Moby. That was just a great little touch to kind of move us across time. I thought that the, are you okay? Just the way that Lucas choked out, are you okay? Do you hurt anywhere? Was so wonderful and like asking if, specifically asking if Max could feel his hand because, you know, of course, Max is saying, like, can't feel much. Okay, can you see you? So it takes us back to the terror

of the attic in season four and our just sense of complete dismay and despair watching everything at the end of season four. But then it also ports us into that season five little beam of hope and light when Max realized that she could feel his hand on hers. When Matt stood there and didn't move

and just watch Lucas hold her hand. Exactly that, exactly that. So yeah, it's just really paying off with these two. And this is, of course, the stuff, again, that like we're eluding to in our opening snapshot discussion of kind of like forecasting what might the finale bring. These are the moments that we want space for. Sadly, I need it.

Again, I am optimistic about the finale. But sadly, you know, Lucas is going into the upside down and Max is staying back at the radio station. So they're going to be, you know, unless there's like an epilogue with them, they're going to be, I think, separated for the bulk of the finale. Maybe we'll get some over the radio again. You do a lot of acting on a telephone. Please watch the constant.

the last episode. But like, you know, there's, there's, um, this might be it. We must see them at the movie theater before the end. We simply must. If they, if they survive, right? Okay. Unlike Victor Creel, Max is not blind. Any thoughts on this? Does this feel like like, like, tied into the sort of like, loose mumbo jumbo of 11 brought her back to life. And so it was also like, and you get to keep your vision while you're at it or anything like that. Um, no, I don't think so, because Victor blinds himself later, right, at the penitentiary. So he's like doing it. to punish himself with the razor blade. So I think that that feels distinct from what Max suffered through and that the 20-month

coma or non-coma that was really actually a trance, the trauma of her body would have healed. She was bleeding from her eyes. Yes. But they're fine now. Okay. All right. Yeah. All right.

Healed. On the medical front. I just need to say this really quickly. Yeah. Vicki is a candy striber. And I don't know that everyone like knows what that is. But like that she is not a nurse. she is a student volunteer at the hospital.

20 months ago she was in high school. Again, what is occupied Hawkins, Indiana like on the sort of like accelerated fast track medical front? I don't know. Is this like wartime and she's like a triage candy striper and she knows a bunch of stuff? But she comes in with all of this like medical advice and knowledge and essentially becomes Max's nurse for the rest of the season it seems like, right? Because Max is back at the radio station, Vicki's with her, right? So like they turned this teenager into a hospital volunteer and now she's in charge of a girl who was in a 20 month, albeit magical coma. And it just seems to me when she starts doling out advice, I'm like, you're not a nurse.

And I was watching it with Diana. I was like, I thought she was a nurse. I was like, no, she's a candy stripper, which is different. And like you've not been to medical school. Usually if you're candy strap, you're like changing bedpans. Like that's what you're doing. And so again, military. Occupied Hawkins. I don't know what the vibe is, but that really like, that bumped for me in a way that I, maybe it's because I, my mom's a nurse. I come from a family of medical professions. I'm like, you can't just like fast forward through this sort of thing. So I don't know. I, obviously it's crucial from a plot perspective that we, you know, in the prior episodes came to understand that Max had just been in the trance, not in fact in a coma that was perplexing and defying medical understanding. So when this happened with Vicky, I was, was.

was focusing more on just like, okay, I don't know why Vicky feels confidence saying this to Max at all. Let's do an exam, something, but also then, to your point, she wouldn't be the one qualified to give the exam. I'm more just like, okay, Max's injuries have healed. She was in a trance. She wasn't actually in a coma. The part where I really was thinking about this was the subsequent scene with Karen, where, listen, Blono delivering as always, our girl Karen Wheeler, getting the opportunity to shine time and time again. Permas looked better, but she's killing it.

If you think I'm going to stay in bed when my daughter needs me, you're out of your goddamn mind. Okay, great. Karen's getting hero moment after hero moment. Right. Vicky basically came in with Karen and did the possible side effects, big pharma advertising read section of a commercial in real time and stranger things. You could get an infection, hemorrhage, God forbid, stop breathing. I'm waiting for her to be like possible limb loss.

Anal leakage. Like, you know, what else might Mickey tell? Karen Wheeler awaits and again, will anybody think of Ted? But I'm like, okay, on the one hand, I guess anybody could probably tell Karen Wheeler that this is a bad idea because literal days ago she was mauled by a demigorgon and as we chronicled in the beginning of the season was who days ago could not speak. Had to play pictonary in order to get her point across. atically right, Henry.

And she must have to strike to do so. And again, good for her. But her neck was sliced open by a Demogordon. Everyone knows she's not ready to leave. So even then, I was like, okay, I believe that Vicky would tell her that she's not ready to leave because anybody would tell her that she's not ready to leave. Your point is a well-made one, though. It is.

Dr. Vicky, I await your impressive medical future, given that you already feel very qualified to take care of all of those other stuff. Okay. When she graduates, med school, we're going to Enzo's to celebrate. I mean at this time, Joe. It's really happening this time. Okay. So Karen is sent back to not on the show anymore. Let me ask you a serious question.

No one gives a shit about Ted. In your head canon, is Karen going to go check on Ted right now? She's staying at the hospital. No. No one is going to check on Ted or see if he's okay. No. The hospital was attacked by demo dogs and is now under military occupation. No one gives a single shit.

Maybe Holly would when she gets back. Maybe Holly will check. Very tough guy. Very tough for Ted. As I told you, Nell Fisher, who plays Holly, like has in interviews being like, everyone forgets about Ted. What about dead? Yeah.

Come on House of our, Nell. You get us. We're going to get back to Holly in a second. We're sort of lump some of her stuff together because we get sort of like intermittent check-ins on like what's going on of Holly. We're going to get all that together. But let's go into the upside down. Jonathan and Nancy have survived.

unlike Leonardo DiCaprio have survived their Titanic moment. Damn, spoiler. A tough one there. Spoiler for Titanic. A movie literally everyone saw in 1997. And Dustin and Steve

break, Jonathan and Nancy out. I did love the moment. When Dusty like embraces Nancy two tightly and he's like, was that weird, blah, blah. It was like, to me a nice callback to the fact that like Dustin had a massive crush on Nancy season one. We haven't heard anything about Sue's.

Nancy's back on the market. We haven't heard anything about Susie for the entire season. I'm just saying if you want to bring back, I mean, we were just talking about now. We like the idea of Nancy finding yourself outside of who she's dating. But Nancy and Dustin shirt of like beautiful dance together and the snowball. Anything that makes you think of the snowball is great. Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe. I like to think that Dustin and Susie are going strong. I think that Nancy should take some time for herself and then look for some age-appropriate dating partners. but, you know, I like that you managed to top your... You like an age gap, Mallory. I do. You don't mind an age gap.

What I like is we'll talk about this a little bit when we get to Buffy season three, which tested even me on this front. But I like, oh, boy, you know, are you like receiving your AARP card yet? Kind of an age gap. But, you know, I love the bold takes that you bring. You know, of course, famously during the rewatch, Karen should have fucked Billy, one of your finest takes. I mean, one of your finest takes?

No one disagrees. I think even Ted would be like, yeah, she probably should have. Including Karen. Oh, man. All right. So I'm just going to drop this. We're getting obviously more Lord Dump from Dustin later, right? We'll talk about that more.

Dr. Brenner's notebook from 83. This thing is a gold mine, all his research into the gate, how he created it. What it really is. I'm still deciphering it, but yeah, this shit will fry your brain. Yeah. I'll put a pin in all of my questions. because I have many until we get to the rundown. So many.

Yeah. We will hit that all when we get to Dustin's Lord them. You already tease that you were delighted by this trio, but any comments you want to make on team Erica Murray and Mr. Clark. Murray, as ever, very committed to the nickname bit. Yeah. Snuckums to stick in. Mr. Clark, I really, I, like, on the one hand, you and I have been having these conversations about like, do they have room for all these characters? Like, let's trim it down to our original.

but Mr. Clark has been here from the beginning. And watching Mr. Clark enjoy himself scientifically on this little balloon experiment that they do. And then later getting to experience the upside down and stuff like that, like, this actually like really works for me. Yeah. And previously, having fucked the librarian just the night prior, I mean, Mr. Clark is enjoying himself in all sorts of ways.

Great for him. Mr. Clark responsible for the moment in this episode that is the number one source of the bad baby emails, which is the Lord of the Fellowship of the Ring, reference when he speaks friend, the elvish word for friend when he opens the gate. Simply a perfect television moment and we will not accept arguments to the contrary. That was there for us. I mean, nothing maybe has ever been better in stranger things to me.

Because it just breeze past it. And it's like if you know, you know, and then don't worry about it. Exactly. Which is how many of the Lord of the Rings references across the seasons like that love time we've tracked them. That was of course fantastic. I agree. I really like that Mr. Clark is here at the end. I got quite a kick out of when we get to the plates, the fact that they have enlisted him, pulled him into this, pulled him out of a potential, you know, morning delight session with Sugar Lump and her Sugar Lump and have not told him why, which is just. I can't believe you came back to the sugar lump. You knew I was going to.

You're incredible. November 7th awaits. Mr. Clark is going to be fine. He's not going into the upside down. He will be able, he and the librarian will be able to enjoy themselves for, for me. many November's to come. That's what I think. I hope so. To come indeed. I loved this Voyager stretch with the Voyager Alpha, Voyager Beta and Voyager Gamma. I think that, first of all, Erica with Marie and Mr. Clark is just a genuine comedy gold and I'm really enjoying it. So that's been fun. Things are tense. Things are dire. Injecting a little levity. We need it. I need it. Yeah. I loved this visual of the balloons as they're attempting to tag dust it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it really was pinging up for me, Pixar Classic up. And I would just like to say, I'm throwing this out there.

Is there time between now and the finale? I don't know. If the Magic Beanstalk Radio Tower plan doesn't work, let's just use the balloons. I'm just, I'm throwing it out there. No bad ideas in a brainstorm, Halliday. This is in a brainstorm. Here's what else I loved about this. The Voyager made me think NASA, right?

using Voyagers, the call signs, this idea of like exploring and expeditions and what knowledge awaits beyond, I think that's the perfect thing that Mr. Clark would suggest for their call signs, but just more broadly, it takes me all the way back to season one. I mean, Mr. Clark has been the source of so many scientific insights for the group and thus for us as, as viewers across the years, right? The Flea and the Acrobat, the Compass and a pull, what would be pulling it? All of that originally, like they learned from Mr. Clark. this idea of the curiosity voyage and the curiosity door, which was so at the fore back at the beginning in the show.

Like, I love invoking that in the call signs right here and reminding us that just, especially, you know, we talked about this last pot and there were many moments in this episode and in there plotting and planning and just like theorizing and sleuthing about what's going on where that magic and science idea, the melding of it. The question, you know, as when we talked about this at length and we just covered alien earth. you know, what is what is the difference really? Some would say that that's a question that Arthur C. Clark has. Some wouldn't. Some might. It's a little house of our callback for anybody who didn't listen to the Elliott Earth shows. So I just, I love that he's here and it feels right and it

feels like a nice way to connect us across seasons. I'm very happy to see him. I will say, as I mentioned last week, I'm getting a little burned on like all the, like, let me explain how something works, moments that we've gotten this season. Dustin does a pretty solid one in this episode. Steve also, like, you know, joins in on the fun. So, like, but I don't think anyone's done it better than Mr. Clark. I think Mr. Clark is like the best version of that throughout the seasons. So there we go.

No question. Robin used the phrase pancakeed both in talking to Mrs. Wheeler and then sort of again here a few times that made me very worried about Holly's fall. I didn't think they were actually going to like splat Holly after all this time we spent with her. But I was just like, it's in too close proximity, I think. I thought it was just one more way to remind us that the show is not engaging with Ted Wheeler, who just wants someone to pass him a bacon, even though the plate is empty and has had to share his pancakes with these kids season after season. I would encourage you for the rest of this pod to find a way to connect every single word to Ted Wheeler.

I think you can do it. Someone has to try. I think you can do it. I believe in you. So Mr. Clark remains confused yet game, you know, as we're figuring all of this out, the moment where hops like you're overthinking it, buddy, we actually have a superhero here with us who could take that camera down, all that sort of stuff like that. Eleven eventually peels open the metal plate covering the rift and the search party enters the upside

down. Vicki speaks for all of us when she asks how breathable the air is, a woman of the people. Always on our minds. Always. Mr. Clark looking closely at a at a viny tentacle, seemingly having like a confused get scientifically euphoric blast, sort of in this. Correct if I'm wrong, Mallorbin. This is Mike Wheeler's first time in the upside down, right?

And we don't take a beat to deal with that, which seems absolutely insane to me. I would leave every single Murray Snookums on the table if it meant we had a minute or two for Mike to process being in the, Mike Wheeler, one of our main characters, processing being in the upside down for the first time. This is pretty wild. I guess like, yeah, I guess going through the, going into the tunnel area and you're breathing some, you're off in some particles, but it's not the full, the full thrust of it. Yeah.

Yeah. That is wild. Huh. Just a note I have. Maybe, you know, it reminded me, I was thinking about, um, in eventual. end game when it's like raise your hand if you've been to space sort of like moment you know like is there a way to deal with this that feels economical you know like because we can't all be Eddie or like you know there's a number of people who've gotten like a very you know concentrated

amount of time to grapple with what it means to be in the upside down what is this place and maybe they don't feel like they have time for that it's just like Mike you know not to mention Lucas or like whatever but like you know Mike is just Mike Wheeler I love the endgame call. What is the comp to seeing the galactic reflection in Steve Rogers's eye? Is it Mike coughing a particle that just definitely coughing on a toxic and piece of our beloved characters? Of a sci-fi fantasy dandruff.

Yeah, okay. All right, let's go to Holly. Speaking of Wheelers in the upside down. Indeed. Not in the upside down. Not. How devastated slash surprised were you by the reveal that Holly and the kids weren't in the upside down at all?

I guess. I was like, holy shit. Yeah, this is really good. Where the hell are we now? Sort of thing. This is good. And we've been, you know, across the season building, you know, from what Willis glimpse through the demo cam and the painting and little glimpses that we've had of like plugged in children. And we got to see in the last couple episodes, Vecna plugged in the horror of the pulsing. The pulsing sack. The pulsing sack of both him.

Do you want to connect pulsing sack to Ted Wheeler or? I would rather read that alone. This is why it's just a collaboration. It's a partnership, you know? We find a way together. In this stretch, Holly waking and Vecna's there. We got a little bit of a, it's not a return to form in general in season five on the subtitle front, but we did get some nice, like, mysterious slithering and things of that nature,

which I appreciated. It was good to see some of the subtitles there. Holly, I think we both want to talk more about what, we saw with the claw imagery and the shape and of course just where we are, which we'll hit in a second. Just quickly on the Holly, because she frees herself. And it's like a process. Oh yeah. She's got to break through the membrane, pull the plug out, kick and claw her way free. And then she coughs off, like purges out the particles, which we've now seen many times, right? Of course, we saw this famously at the end of season two when these are like,

expel and out of will. But came out of the demigorgon. The middle of this season is reminding us heavily with the Franken Demo and now this. So do you feel like if 11. Particle corner. If 11 is purged of any particle that's inside of her, will it purify her blood is not a phrase I really like, but you know, will it make her blood unspecial and, you know, free her from persecution?

Yeah, I think this is one of the theory corner things. I mean, there's obviously, and we've been speculating about this for years with the hive mind and how obviously will tapping into the hive mind has made the hive mind very central already. But in terms of like depowering the hive mind, the like kill the one, kill the many aspect of it of just the hive mind falling if the top of the head of the snake falls. But also the idea that the hive mind could be depowered by our, our powered set pulling the particles out of them. There's that, which is interesting to think about. But then yeah, you've got this on my mind like with like the potential end game. Right. Can we purge our not in the level?

11 death, but 11 without her superpowers and embracing the idea of heroism in another form. Is that what you think Nancy Wheeler is going to do with a flamethrower? Just burn 11 to a crisp. And then Ella will walk out and be like, I might be crisp. I had some particles to shed, so I'm good. I might be crispy, but my blood is no longer cursed. So how many things about it. All right.

Just some quick initial impressions of what the show is calling the abyss and what Diana and I in our house called the Bowser level of, of this whole platform. And they're calling the clothing the Paintree? I saw this on the official Netflix website, which I, unless I missed it, was not uttered in the show, but the Netflix site called it the Paintree. Capitalized

as though it were an official name. Payntry. I had written here Vecna's Palace, but I rebranded to Paine Tree. I have some notes, Vecna, if you're trying to promote a cuddly or softer side of yourself. Yeah, come to the light. Come to the light. I'm telling

This is maybe not the phrase you want. But, okay, does this paint tree look to you more like a skeletal hand? An upside down dead spider slash mind flare, right? Like a bug on its back with like its little legs in the air. Or, and we actually got several emails about this from the listeners, the Skexies Castle is actually called, I think, like, the Crystal Palace. Skexie's Castle from the Dark Crystal Night. I don't know that you've seen the Dark Crystal. I think you haven't.

linked to the image here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. That definitely is a reference set as well for the show. So that seems entirely plausible. I thought hand, claw, and spider immediately, which I think it's not only like visually very apparent. Like it's, I'm sure everybody thought those two things looking at it. But with Vecna, with Henry, invoking the hand and invoking the spider imagery is perfect because on the one hand, now anybody who watch Ringer Quest knows, I am no D&D expert nor will I claim to be. I've played it exactly one time. It was with my colleagues. We filled it. And I had a fucking blast and I can't wait to do it again. It was great. I'm like, how have I not been playing this my entire life? But I haven't been playing it

my entire life. We know, though, that Vecna's severed hand is like a part of the D&D Vecna canon. And this idea of the hand of Vecna is like a powerful artifact. So that felt notable to me that it looks like this thing that in D&D lore is very associated with like the power that you could tap into if you acquired that artifact. But as I understand it, also the evil that you would be welcoming into your life. And then of course the spider imagery because as we've talked about ad nauseum at this point, this was so core to Henry explaining his worldview where and how he found a sense of peace and belonging. some idea generation inspiration and how he thinks about the kind of world that he's trying to build. I found a nest of black widows living inside a vent he said in season four. Most people fear spiders. They detest them. And yet I found them endlessly fascinating. More than that,

I found a great comfort of them, a kinship. Like me, they are solitary creatures and deeply misunderstood. They are gods of our world, the most important of all predators. They immobilize and feed on the weak, bringing balance and order to an unstable ecosystem. So no accident that he's on these kids like Will, why do you think I take the kids? Because they're weak. And then he's taking them and collecting them in a vessel that looks like his God. Um, fun. Love that idea. Um, I think it's been really interesting to think about, for me at least, to think about like, how much do they know about season five when they made season four? And like, yeah, we've talked about some of those things, but I thought it was really interesting, you know, like you cited this deadline interview. There's a great

People magazine, a bunch of interviews that they published. Hollywood Reporter has a great Duffer interview, et cetera, et cetera. And they were talking about how when they were talking to Sadie Sink about whether or not she'd be in this season. They were like, don't worry. We're not killing you. You're coming back in the season. But they said they didn't know they were going to use Holly Wheeler at that point. And Holly is such a huge part of this season that I was like, wow.

So they knew what they wanted to do with Max in season. but they did not even know. They were like, Max will be stuck in Vecna's mind. And that's interesting to them. But they didn't know how they were going to use Holly Wheeler, which is just massive. I thought that was fascinating. So when we talk about things like a spider monologue or whatever, I'm like, I'm curious, just my own mind, like, how much had they, like, really figured out about Henry's relationship

with the mind flare and like all of that and complicated as we've talked about in the stage show stuff, which comes out between the seasons? We're not going to like bring up here, but like did they contradict their, certainly in many places they've already contradicted their own canon. So like it's just it's, I'm excited to know everything in the finale and then try to like paste it all together and make a picture that makes sense. All right. So Holly, I'm just like really like Max's pep talk stuck because she saw that she was not on the upside down and that did not stop her. not that she really knows what the upside down is anyway but like she's just like

okay run this run home you know Max's like it'll look like Hawkins so just find your home and then she goes what the fuck is this uh-uh does not look like home and she takes off and she goes and she figures out a rift and she uses

her young child hands to pry it up as Bechna is actively stalking across you know the you know we see him sort of lower behind her like a spider and then you know like stalking across the thing after her and then she just like chucks herself through the gate and intimate air i mean again i did not think that holly was going to die here but when you see the x marks the spot of the hawkins lab sort of rising up through the mist you're just like what the hell is going to happen here and then

you know this is sort of happens back and forth in time or whatever but like Eventually we see Nancy's sort of very devastated face as Holly is suspended in midair and then yonked back up to the abyss and plugged back into the pain tree. And then back to Creel Mansion. Let's be honest. Vecna saved her life. Like this is just another elite take. Does he have some flaws? I have some notes for Vecna.

I have a few. Okay. Holly Wheeler would have died if he had not yoint her back up out of the sky. There's no way that ends any other way, right? You don't think that the exotic... This is amazing. Does she fall into the middle of the exotic?

Oh, and we all know how well things happen to things that come near the exotic matter. Maybe the exotic matter field slows her and she lands into some still hardening goo. And then just... Soft enough. soft enough to Kushner Fall. To Gushen her fall.

And then just like her fellows, none of it hardens on her person in a way that would lead to any biologically pressing concerns. That could have happened. Great theory. Alternatively, Vecna has some points. Vecna, you're in on Vecna. So let me let me recap a few things. So last pod, Joe, colon, Steve is right. Eddie died for nothing.

This pod, Joe, Vecna, saved. Holly's like, I love it. You're on fire right now. Yes, some point. This is great. The Vecna Yo-Yo. A couple things. Why is that not merch that the Netflix store is selling?

Yes, guys. We're still waiting for the TVA official notebook that meets our needs. But if we don't have a Vechna Yo-Yo by the finale, like, it's just a miss. What are we doing? It's a miss. On the design front, when Holly pushed her way through, it's not obviously quite, nothing's going to ever measure up to like the, through the trailer,

yeah, that was just all time stuff. But it was effective very quickly, as we're going to get to Dustin explaining everything in the wormhole and the bridge between these two realities, the abyss in our world, when Holly pokes her head through, we have the color palette and the visual cues

that we're in the upside down, but it clearly, like the terrain is clearly the abyss on that side, not Hawkins, which, like, of course, it should be it is, but it helps just cement for us in one other way how this space is functioning and what it is. So I liked that. I thought that was useful. I'm on the, like, how is the information that we're sharing front, how is it taking root and what knowledge trees might spout? What beanstocks of a different sort might spout for. Am I, like, completely missing something? Nobody, after, all of this information is shared is like, wait,

Vecna, because Nancy says it was Vecna, he pulled her back. And I'm like, you could see her. She was right there. If he can pull her back, can't we use our powers on the other, we're like, how are we going to get up there? How about we use our superpowers? Well, can anyone fly? Push.

What are we pushing? What are we pushing? The person. Let's do a mega force jump up to the. this. We're like bump set spiking someone and who are we picking? I'm just saying, is it a perfect plan? And we being 11. 11's got to send someone up there, maybe herself. I'm just saying, Joe. She's going to bump set spike herself up. It wasn't even tossed out as an idea to be discarded, which I just find odd because it's like Vecna could pull somebody basically across the entire bridge.

Logic would indicate that we can then push somebody. I'm just saying. I think at, least it should have been an idea floated before helicopter maybe. You know what I mean? Or between helicopter and we've got a beanstalk already. We'll talk, we'll get to the beanstalk, but not to throw shade my dude, my dude, Steve, who finally for once got to like hear people say, you're what a genius. Steve's plan is let's basically wait until the last second before her dimensions collide and we're all dead forever. Well, here's where, here's where I will put some theory corner out for you. Tell me. Yeah.

We were wondering why we were getting this whole like will the builder, uh, sort of idea earlier. Yep. So not to mention the sort of like can 11 bumps that spike herself up to, uh, the sky. Great question. Uh, you ask some great questions. Can will the builder not vine bend, um, you know, a cora and Avatar the last bender and like make a little.

literal beanstock so we don't have to do this on Vecna's clock we could do this on our clock I don't know just a thought I like that invite us to the brainstorm we have some ideas but like I was wondering if if after all of this is there any way after all of this the squawk tower doesn't work for some

reason even though it's Steve's idea but like does it get crumpled or something like that and it doesn't work and we need something else to get us up there and is it 11 flying, as we've been sort of hinting this whole time? Or is it Will building a literal beanstalk out of the vines that, you know, Mr. Clark was staring meaningfully at a certain point inside of this episode. I really like that theory. I think that's a great, that's a great one.

It doesn't seem like the radio tower thing. On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, is this why we watch Jonathan and Steve? Yeah, race up it? Race go all the way up a bit. So. Maybe. I mean, we had some questions about the CGI at that. points. So that makes me a little nervous. Well, actually, I think it actually made me feel better about

that CGI because I was so confused about that. But now that I know that they had to build that in a space where they could flip the background to the upside down, I was like, oh, okay. You know what I mean? There's that big brain. There's that big brain at work. You see across time and space, the real wormhole, the rumble of the mind. I had another builder related adjacent theory. I like the beanstalk one a lot because that that seems right. Like given that we know now he can chronically he can control and move the vines. I mean like why else tell us that if it's not going to matter? Here's my kind of semi-related question on the why tell us that if it's not going to matter front.

One of the things that Will says is if I could do all of that, this is after he's like told Joyce about the building. if I could do all of that, what could he do with 12 more like me? Okay, so there's the like beanstock theory leader in the clubhouse. There's like basically if we'll built the tunnels, can he unbuild them in some way, but I don't know what that does other than collapse the town. Which is already, that helps him. We're just helping. We're just doing back to his job for him at that point.

So can he do that to the abyss? And can he specifically, can they all do it to the abyss? Can Will and these 12 kids like team up and compromise that reality instead of hours? And then obviously we go through the like, oh no, he's not just like the merging clarification that Vecna, who I have to say does not strike me as a geologist. Like I don't know that the structural integrity of either reality is going to survive that kind of incursion. So we've got notes on everybody's plans, including Vecna's. But if we're- And courage and just gave me multiverse PTSD.

Yeah, I mean, well, you know. Yeah. I'll throw some music notes your way to bring you back into the light. But like, could we compromise the abyss, collapse that world before it can crash into our own and merge? Take down Vecta and the mind flare. Imagine the power up with 12. The logic holds like if our, I don't know. I wonder, I guess I'm not, I don't know if that makes sense either given that it is canonically established in this episode that Vecna is.

so the Vecna is creating riffs up in the abyss too. So like there's already some structural integrity stuff happening up there by his design. Can I just ask? I wonder. Maybe I'm, you know, you can call me Steve Harrington if you want to. Maybe I'm like completely missing something. But like, how does Will know that? I mean, we know that Holly somehow broke through whatever the crest was.

But when Will is like, he hasn't just been doing that, he's been making riffs in the abyss. And I'm just like, how do you? know that Holly got through one gate how do you know that Vectas did I miss something about that I guess through the hive mind like I guess through the connection to the hive mind in the various cams

will just knows things because he penetrated his mind he saw into the paint tree into the layer yeah and then he see his to do list and it's like Tuesday make more riffs maybe I just saw a hospital sign with a room number so they're both just seeing a lot of printed words.

But yeah, I guess there's that. Murder, murder, kidnapping murder, make another rift. Cupcakes with jelly fruit wedges. Keep everyone calm. On the beanstalk front, I just want to say, we got a couple emails from listeners because they know how much I love the musical into the woods, which deals with beanstalks and giants in the sky. This idea of like there are giants in the sky.

So like thinking of Vecna as like, you know, this giant force, not a physically giant, but giant force that can just sort of like yoink a girl up out of midair save her life. And, you know, something to think about. I don't really want to talk about the military subplot. Is there anything that you want to say about Kay and Sullivan and Acres? This is a real miss for me in general this season. But is there anything you want to say? I just, this is a bummer that like this hasn't landed a little bit more. And, you know, we talked about this across season four and five now. But, you know, if you're going to introduce like a third, we have a pretty key central tension, right? So if we're going to introduce a third arm, we have to some degree care about that. I think the way that we have achieved that on the 11 front with what's happening with Colleen L is giving us that, right? The fact that they, but like you almost are achieving that in absent.

It's like K is an idea. I mean, that's literalized in this episode where, you know, 11's like, well, we could blow the lab. We could kill K. And every time eight is like, well. I feel like there was a way. I mean, like, I understand to have the military and the scientist continues a theme from season from the very beginning. Yeah. But I feel like there was a way to put those stakes on Colleen L of just sort of like, if our blood exists out here, there's still a way to open a, you know what I mean?

Like, you know, whatever you needed to create the storyline of we have to stay behind. or we have to die in order for this to be truly over. There's a way to do that without Dr. Kay and all of that in the mix, you know? Yeah, because it's very interesting for us from the 11 perspective, but I just don't give a shit about Kay or, Chris E. Acres at all. I guess like with Acres, I felt in this stretch maybe, like they're setting up the idea of like an active mutiny, you know, that Kay's army could turn in full because, I mean,

obviously everybody is converging in the upside down now, you know, Acres and his soldiers, they see that the plate is up. He's like, 11's getting sloppy. Yeah. Follow them in. They're not in there at that moment, but then they will be returning in. So it's all all ends up in the same place, I guess. But this idea that, you know, he's like, how am I supposed to know what to request if I don't know what the hell I'm fighting? Introduces the very real possibility that at some point everybody's like, fuck this. Like, if you're not going to tell me when I'm fighting, I'm not going to keep putting my life on the line for something that we don't understand. land.

They're certainly seeding like Acres Mutiny. It would be interesting if he took the whole, they call the Wolfpack. Is that right? Okay. This one goes out to Mr. Clark. They call it to Bridge. Oh, bridge. All right.

So everyone's back at the radio station. Very good. Yeah. The show once again is trying to pretend that Will and Max have a relationship when as far as I can remember, he hated all the girls in season three because he was jealous, that they were occupying the time of his friends, and then moved to California immediately. after and while that gave him time to bond with 11 so I understand the Will and 11 stuff they were living in California together. He never saw Max again until she was in a coma. So what I like I don't mind characters meeting each other and like forming bonds. But they keep acting like Will and Max have been pals this whole time when like it's like Legolas and Frodo like they never had a conversation. Like I don't I don't this is I don't know why this is bugging me but it's bugging me a bit. I think this is another example. of where something that could be a bug can actually be turned into a feature if the show makes space for literally one liner, like maybe two.

Because I think there's a way to say we have the trauma bond, the shared trauma of this which is true. And we understand that as viewers without them explicitly telling us. But I think there's a way to have the characters engage with that idea to explain why they are united. through like a shared experience, even though it's a little bit distinct for each of them, right? A shared experience that unites them. So 11 and Max have this deep relationship. They went to the mall together. They went to the mall together once.

They played in the bottle. They shared comics once. It was one of the deeper relationships of the shows who are told to them. They care about each other. We know that. As you noted, Will and Jean have their entire bonding sequence and are like a literal family, right? and I think there's some aspect of us like accepting and believing that Max's import to 11 like that will soak some of that up, absorb some of that.

But I think just somewhere in this season saying like this is one of the few people in the world who genuinely truly fully understands what I'm talking about and what I've been through and we can kind of unite as a team in that respect. when Vicki wheels max in and they talk, that's like a spot for it. No, and that's a, you know, it's a good scene, but like the like, when he runs up to her and she's like, oh, I leave you alone for like two seconds and you're a sorcerer and I'm like, do you mean several years ago the last time you saw each other when you weren't friends then? Like I don't, it, it makes me feel like they're hoping we forget that these two people

were never friends and we can just be like, oh, they've all grown up together. Do you know what I mean? So anyway, Luke is giving Max a tour, though, is very, very, very small. Sweet. Love this. Not quite the back game, but it's pretty sweet. It was very funny. Another shout out for our guy, Jimmy Fastans. Will he come into play at the end?

No, but Hope Springs Eternal, Mallory. Who are you most excited to see? Jimmy Fastsands or Ted Wheeler up and about? Maybe Jimmy will make his way back after his famous escape. We'll make his way back into the quarantine zone and he will be the one who checks on tab. I like the idea. Were they golfing buddies, do you think? Maybe.

Maybe this is like a bonus featureette after the. finale. You know, Jimmy's adventures out, outside of not only the Big Mac, but the entire Hawkins, QZ, and he's a man of the people, has been the voice of the people, a DJ for years,

and it takes it upon himself to tell the true story. Enough of these like newscasters who come in at the end of a season, and they're like, these people just thought they lived in a simple town, but no, they're on top of a hellmouth. We need Jimmy Fast Hans to come in and collect and amass all the facts to tell the true story. And is there a better source for him? him. I ask you. Then Ted Wheeler. Mallory

knows that Netflix is out here clamoring for Stranger Things spinoff and she has just pitched them a Jimmy Fast Hands spinoff. A little webisode. Show run by Mallory Rubin who says no. Okay. Speaking of like it just takes a few lines to sort of like make you feel okay with certain decisions or whatever. I'm still not, I still don't feel great about Max right at the very Anne being like, by the way, you can't come with me, Holly. But at least we get this beat where she is like expressing remorse and angst around it to Lucas, right?

She's all alone in there, Lucas, alone with that monster. And I was so sure that she could make it out. And I was so stupid. You had to try. I should have stayed there and I should have kept her safe. And then Lucas is like, no, then we would all be screwed. We wouldn't know this, that or the other thing. Like, absolutely you made the right decision.

But like her wrestling with that, so it's a bit better for me than like Dustin being like, LOL, I was wrong. I was exotic matter when I told you to, you know, I told you to destroy it. I should have. It's just like, it's moments like that where I was just like, yes, Max should grapple with the fact that she left Holly alone there. And I'm glad that this moment is here, you know? Agreed. Agreed. Is Dustin's turn for a big info dump with visual aids? Sure is. And Gaten? Pretty good at it, honestly. And I just, and more than that, more than Gaten being really good at the translucent

breaking bad-esque through the whiteboard sort of like shot of all of that. It's really sweet to watch Mr. Clark watch Dustin, like his quote-unquote protege as Erica called it. Like it's just like... Really great. Really great.

Like really sweet. I don't know. I got really emotional with it. I agree. I love that. Almost as moving and powerful as Mr. Clark's little side glance at Erica when she said what a pussy about Vecna fleeing back to the abyss. It's just great to have Mr. Clark here for all of these payoffs.

When he and Erica say wormholes, you know, like all of that stuff is really great. And like, I think one of our listeners had suggested that this moment would come and it would be really fun to have Erica explain it to people because she just learned about it in class and that would have been fun. Dustin is a is also a great alternative. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about zebbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet

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other terseptitide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth

control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-7-9 or visit at bound.lily.com. Yeah. We also got, this felt vintage to me in a great nostalgic stranger things way. Like another world that I've coined the abyss.

It takes me back to season one and veil of shadows. Yeah, yeah. And Dustin is our guide so often. Talking about Vecna. Yeah. Yeah. Like whether it ends up being right or wrong. Like he's so often the voice of these explanations.

And also just the like, you know, the fact that Mr. Clark knows the D&D term, right? So he's like a realm of pure chaos and evil. Because Robin's like any particular reason? Why you're calling that? And you've got hop there saying Jesus Christ and rolling his eyes. It just felt like all of the, using the D&D as like this crucial touch center framing device for us to understand what's happening in Hawkins. But the way that the different characters relate to like this game.

The believers and the non-believers sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. The game is the text as the sacred text. Like I just loved that. And in this moment, the people who don't, in this room, the people who don't know D&D are the ones on the outside of the conversation versus how are. Our pals usually feel on the outside themselves. Okay.

Everyone eventually joins in the brainstorming session. No, bad ideas in a brainstorm with extra details from Holly, 11, et cetera, helping to form this picture of Vecna's full plan. I've already talked about my confusion around Will's Rift-based Intel. But like, you know, oh, because of this, you know, how did all of this coming together? As Dustin was explaining this, you know, we get this nice visual aid, which I thought like, you know, it's interesting that inside of this bridge which has the abyss at the top the way that they're drawing it, the abyss at the top, and then the upside down and then Hawkins, that Hawkins is sort of like the upside down thing inside of this structure. That it sort of like hurts my head to think of it that way, but we have to just completely flip our idea of the map in order, you know, they could have drawn it the other way.

But since the abyss is, since gravity works a certain way inside of this wormhole, is that how wormshole? hormorhole work? I don't know, but that that puts Hawkins all the way on the bottom of this stacked structure. And I thought that was interesting. That's, I, that's a great shout. Because it almost introduces a little bit of a like, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor turning the painting around in his office element to it. It's like, that's what Vecna would want us to think, you know, is the upside out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great shout. So I agree. I thought, having Dustin do this was the right choice. I thought he very effectively explained it.

We kind of like teased last episode that, you know, there are some questions. I don't know actually at this point if we're going to get additional answers to this. I assume we will. Duffers told deadline that all questions would be answered in the finale. All questions will be answered. But this is your timeline question, right? Yeah. And this is, I want to like.

People really should know better than to mess with a timeline around you. No, no, no, no, no. It's not that. I'm trying, well, I'm trying to like, I'm trying to wrap my mind around how many of these answers we already have, how many remain to be provided, and how much room there is for some sort of, to what you were saying a few minutes ago, this maybe just doesn't totally like clock because they figured out some of this as they were going. Okay.

So what are you trying to square right now? What's not squaring for you? It's not yet that it's not totally squaring. I don't know. Okay, so we, we, Dustin says he was lost for years. I believe the abyss is the true home of the demigorgans of vines, the mineslayer. All the nasty shit we found in the upside down. It's where all those years ago, you banished Henry.

Now, we have seen the visuals of where 11 sent Henry in 79 and where the pain tree is and his layer is now. Like this is, they match, right? Yeah. Okay. So we know that. We also have, and this is actually interesting with like the, the, the wormhole and the bridge and how it works. We talked about this last pod, how unusual it was to see. We just got the visual clarity when we panned out with the BMW cam of like, no, actually

we're- The edges of the upside-down are. We're not speculating anymore. Like, this is definitive. We're showing it to you. This is what is going on here. We have two realities and the upside-down is a bridge over a hole in between. Okay. So, like, we know those things.

That's, like, set now, which is helpful. You mentioned this earlier when Dustin was talking about the journals that he said Brenner created the gate. Okay. Here is what they say in this stretch. He was lost for years and he would have stayed lost, meaning Henry, if it wasn't for Brenner. Then Elle says he had me find Henry. And then Dustin says, and when you made remote contact with the abyss, the bridge formed.

Now, if we are understanding the idea of the bridge correctly, saying the bridge and the upside down are interchangeable. Right? So they're saying here that the upside down formed when 11 made remote contact with the demigorgon, what we saw in season one, opening the mother gate. Okay. So if the idea is that Brenner led 11 to create the upside down the bridge formed, but 11 had sent Henry through the gate previously in 79, then I'm trying to wrap my mind around. that sequencing. Is there, are we traveling between the dimensions before the bridge? I think so.

I think it's like she sent him, she didn't create the bridge in that moment. Right. Even though that is what's called the mother gate, right? There's travel between the dimensions before the upside down, the warm hole bridge. Yes. Okay. So we're on the, this is how I think this seems right. Right.

And what they're explaining to us. Right. Did Brenner generate the exotic matter? the exotic matter was generated by what 11 did? Like, how did the exotic matter come into play? I'm not a theoretical physicist, so I don't understand that. Frankly, I don't know if we need to understand it. It's there.

It's stabilizing the upside down. That's probably the key thing, right? Is he just studying what's already there? But he's got these notebooks full of information. And if the upside down is frozen in time on that November date in 83, then how are those full already? How are those notebooks full of that information? It means...

Well... Because Will and Vecna is what freezes the upside down, not 11 opening it. So there's a little bit of time. But is that what we are... So basically, is this correct? You can travel between... People were traveling between the dimensions pre-upside down. Then 11 creates the upside down and then it freezes in time because of Will and Vecta on

November 6th, 83. Is that why it froze? She opened the mother gate on November 6th. 1983. And then Will was also taken on November 6, but she opened it on November 6th. Right. So did she, did 11 create it and freeze it all in one instance? It's frozen in the moment of its creation?

Why not? Why would it be Will and not the person to open again in the first place? Then I don't understand how Brenner's notebooks are full of that stuff. Is there any, and I don't know. Yeah. Is there any chance that those notes were made between 79 and 83? But how would he have notes on the exotic matter stabilizing the bridge if the bridge? Great question.

Is it possible this is some stage show stuff, honestly, but I don't know how to talk about that. Yeah. Okay. Because. Because here's the way I can talk about it. Well. Yeah. Because they're saying, right, there's 11 sending Henry through in 79, but then there's 11 kind of in the sequence we saw in season when touching the demigour.

Oregon. And that way, that's the mother gate. That's the mother gate. That's the forging of the bridge based on this scene and this explanation, the upside down. Right. That's the 83 time. Yes. Yes. So then how is Brenner under studying and understanding the exotic matter in the world? Is it theoretical? Is it theoretical? Maybe. He would is it is. So that's, I guess that's, that's, is that what Dustin is deducing when he's saying created that Brenner's notebook is like an experiment. He was a thing he was trying to do. I mean, because he was part of what he says. Yes. He sends 11. Right. psychically out there to try to make connection with the abyss essentially, right? Because the demigorgans and the, because the upside down doesn't exist yet. Yes. The demigorgans in the abyss.

So he tortures and forces a child to make this. Yes. We have notes. To make this connection. Yes. And so you could say, even though it's 11 who technically does it because he, she's doing it as his like puppet in a sense, he opened the gate. So was his objective?

Just once again, Dustin giving a man credit for a woman's work. You know what I mean? I love it. Okay. So that all makes sense to me. So is this where we are heading into the finale that Brenner was working, not just looking for Henry, which we've now known for some time, but specifically was actually trying to create a wormhole so that there would be a way to travel between these roles. That's what our assumption is heading into the finale. Interesting.

Let me tell you what I like about this. What I don't like about it is I don't think it's great. Are we just like, am I just dumb? And everyone else is like, I don't have any of these questions. This is not a problem. I'm good. Maybe. Absolutely not.

I actually think, I mean, I know you don't think that of yourself. But like, I actually think you're thinking about this, as is often the case. And I was making a joke before. But like, honestly, as is often the case, if there's a date involved, you are going to make sure it aligns in your timeline. And I'm not making fun of you for that. that is just how your brain works and a lot of people are not watching the show that way. Totally.

And so, and I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I do think that like, um, we all benefit for the fact that your brain works that way. And, you know, it's like, it's like when you were doing, you were, you took this timeline math to Noah Hawley when talking about alien earth and Noah Hawley had a total spin out in the interview because he didn't have an answer for you. You know what I mean? So like, once again, once again, hire Mallory Rubin to come into your writer. from see like say your timeline doesn't match up because so often it doesn't you know.

I, it's very kind. I feel like this is a, this is a case where it probably does all work or they will be able to make it work. What I don't love about is I don't love actually having to like stop on the eve of the end, on the precipice of the end, and think this actively about whether this is all going to like click into place and work. What I do like about it is that it is yet again, potentially a melding of the supernatural and the scientific. which I think is cool and appropriate at the end. And I like that that was kind of actively invoked, you know, recently in the last couple stretch of episodes.

So yeah, I don't know. This is, like we talked about briefly last pot, it's a big change in the end of the final season to say like, the upside down is not what you thought it was. It's this. So that should all make sense. I will say, and I didn't know this because I have not spent a ton of time on the Stranger Things subreddit between seasons.

But apparently between season four and this season, the upside down as a wormhole was a very popular theory. I didn't know that. But like apparently like a bunch of people on the subreddit were on top of this. So I think that's interesting. I love it. And I am curious how much time and space they have to make this all make sense in the finale. Let's go back to the abyss. and by the abyss, I mean, the Creole Mansion inside of everyone's mind as they are plugged into the pain tree.

I thought this is, so Holly comes back, Henry, after saving her life, gently lays her down in the bed and then goes to absolutely fuck with the minds of the various children in this house. Yeah. deeply manipulative. Jamie Campbell-Bauer just drop in some of the most, like, devious little smirks and smiles as he manipulates and warps these children to his will. But he convinces them to be his little soldiers, essentially, and try to bring Holly back to the light, back to the light. This is so horrifying.

This is, like, culty language, obviously, like, just really, really tough stuff. Watching these kids, you know, Mary, Holly's best friend, It does get a boombox to the face. It should be noted. Right to the noggin. Mary, Mary, first of all, blows up Holly's crush on Maine for no reason.

Genuinely, none. Is nothing sacred? No one needed to know that she had a crush on Joshua. Everyone, apparently a couple people already knew, but you did not need to put that out there. Absolutely, Josh didn't know. So, like, why would you say that, Mary?

Huge violation of the friendship code. Deeply bad. then when everyone's gathered in the room and Holly's like in like my first moment of like I'm not sure this is like perfect acting from Nell but like the desperation you have to believe me appealing to to dipshit Derek and him like abandoning her because he's thinking about his family I thought that was well done I was convinced that she was just sort of like oh okay okay I was so confused blah blah and when she pulled that boom by move. I did not see it coming. I thought it was

great. I thought it was really interesting to see Holly do something similar to what we saw Henry do down the mine shaft, which is like an active head bludgeoning violence that seems a little extreme for the scenario.

A little step beyond. Then speaking of, the kids just descend on her, like Lord of the Flies yellow jacket style. That little blonde mullet kid calls her a bitch. And like, and Mary pulls her best friend is choking her with her own necklace until it breaks. And Holly's like metaphorical powers drain. And then she falls down the stairs and like the last we see of her, we'll get to that later.

But was blood still trickling down her face? She sits at like concussed at the table. But like I thought this was so scary to watch these kids who we've. I mean, again, according to the timeline that you've put together, they've only had a couple days under Mr. What's its thrall. I'm so really confused by that. But like, you know, Derek's in the barracks when he was sort of like manipulating that, like the way in which they are so under his spell and how quickly he turns that into violence all in the name of the light, I thought was just like really well done and really creepy stuff. So I agree. I thought this was harrowing and in a really great and effective way. Lord of the Flies was on my mind as well. I love the yellow jackets shout too. And they're both apt because, you know, obviously the show is set in Hawkins. And so Mr. What's It recruiting, finding his 12 kids in from Hawkins middle, like makes sense. That's where the story is set. But a little. If you kind of pan back, it's like if you were just finding 12 kids with weak minds, would he just recruit from one class at school?

This, though, is where you feel the wisdom of that storytelling choice, because when you get that Lord of the Flies are Yellow Jackets Comp, you have kids who know each other and have a shared history with each other thrust into the group think in a way that just is more believable. I think that if they were all strangers. So I ended up like really liking that they had all come from just like the same playground and school bus group. Shout out the kid in the E.T. Phone Home shirt. Love to see our references just right there. and stranger things, that's great. I was watching Derek with such interest because he, you know, he's throughout these sequences, like the expression on his face, he still knows, I think, what he believes to be true, but he's been so scared, so effectively worked.

Bullied, yeah. Yeah, by Vecna with these visuals, these visuals of his family murdered and mutilated that he feels like he has to conform. And, you know, anytime we think of conformity, we think back to Eddie in his great speech in season four. You know, conformity, that's what's killing the kids. It's like the, the, the, the, what those moments when it's too scary to say I can do a different thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like that's when the evil really seeps in.

So this was another great way, I think, of reinforcing like a core idea at the heart of the show across seasons. Obviously, Henry here is invoking the black thing again. So we get, you know, more wrinkle in time, more. or Camasots still here on our minds as well. I was struck on the theory cornerfront. We've talked a lot already about 12 kids. Why? 12 disciples, 12 hands on a clock.

When Henry says, we need her tonight or we will fail, that was really interesting to me because I think there's a difference between I would like to have 12 kids because that feels like the best and most effective way to amplify my power. and like 12 is better than 11, but wouldn't 11 be better than 10 and certainly better than zero? What we need her tonight or we will fail told me was especially because it was paired with, as is the case many times in this episode, including at the very end. But here when he says that, there's a clock ticking underneath him talking.

And so it's once again just like why 12 exactly, if not 12 hands on the clock? And so I have not given up on that yet. On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, I had a real 12 hands on. the clock fell apart for me when they were all sat around the table and he was also sat there. So that it was 13, it was 13 spaces, not 12. You know what I mean? Interesting.

If he had sat them around a circular table and like traitor style and just like walked behind them as they were chanting, that's 12 hands on a clock. But they're at a long rectangular table. True. That's fine. You could have a long rectangular clock. It's the 80s. Clocks were fun shaped. But 13 spots on the at the table versus 12.

Could he be the like cuckoo atop the grandfather clock? You know, the grandfather clock from Creel Mansion? I want to give you everything you want, so sure. Or let me throw one more thing your way. You mentioned that Holly is freely bleeding from the head at the end of the episode. Maybe Vecta's looking across and he's like, got to be honest, don't know if I can work my mind magic if you are concussed. Can you be pulled into the mind palace if you have a concussion?

If you're in active concussion protocol, something to think about. Something to think about. You've already talked about the dark crisis. Someday I will figure out a reason for us to do like a Jim Henson 80s episodes why I can have you watch Dark Crystal in labyrinth. I'm in the labyrinth. David Bowie's Goblin King puts a clock up. You know, this is the amount of time you have.

It's a beautiful, like, elegant sort of grandfathery clock face. 13 hours on the clock. So, you know, something I think about it. I was thinking a lot about Labyrinth because Will's whole, like, I'll tell everyone my secret and then he doesn't have anything on me is like classic Sarah from Labyrinth. You have no power over me, a hero moment. So I'm always thinking about the Labyrinth, to be honest with you. Were you thinking about it when Steve Harrington's penis was invoked? Because one thing I do know about Labyrinth is that you have told me before that the Bowie penis very visible through his outfit.

Mallory, a moment for you to discuss. Steve has an idea and this is what we hear. What do you mean? We'll just fly through it. What idiot? Just fly through it. Those roads are like 40 feet wide. It's too big.

It's not going to fit. Steve hears that all the time and goes in anyway, don't you? What the hell is wrong with you? Yeah. Did you love this? Was this great? Of course. Did it seem, you liked it.

Did it feel like something Robin would say in that moment? No, it definitely felt like something Murray would say. He was nodding, like appreciatively, right? Like, that's my kind of joke about these young adults fucking. Eddie who called Steve Big Boy. Like, you know what I mean? But Robin, the lesbian being like Steve's canonically huge cock. In which women ask him not to use it because it's too big and he does it anyway.

Classic Robin joke. Okay. Well, now I feel weird saying I loved it. But I did. So now it, of course, takes us back to, in this season, the whole, like, isn't a gate just like a bopper soft on the inside? We can fit. We can drive in.

We can fit. Beamer. You know, the phallic symbol of like the guy with the shiny sports car. Of course, it's all connected. Robin was not a part of that sequence. So that might be in our mind as viewers, but she is not alluding to that. She's undeniably talking about Steve Harrington's giant dick. Yeah.

That's the only way to read this. change. And, you know, not the only interesting moment in the episode to think about how many people are in the room for a given thing being shared. But this is one of them, certainly. All right. Operation Beanstalk. What is your favorite prop used to describe the play of this season? Was it Lucas with the popcorn? Robin with the vinyl? Or Steve here with the slinky in the flashlight? Or am I missing any? You've got, I guess, Mike and his little figurines. Any other prize? Any other prize? props that you particularly enjoy this season. Oh, good question.

I guess it's kind of, especially right on the heels of Steve, you've got a big dong, probably has to be Steve grabbing a flashlight and then shoving it up a slinky. Yeah, it's probably got to be that. And the slinky's like, no, please stop. It doesn't anyway. Very plentiful meme on TikTok and Instagram right now in the Romanticy boom era of like all the different videos. But when there's a line in one of these books about like, she could barely fit both hands around it. It's like steady progression for different household items until you get to something for which

that would be true. You know, let's give Steve a moment for that. You and I are not on the same algorithm in this regard, but I support it. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I can serve that one fairly routinely. Where are you on Steve's, not Steve having the beanstalk plan and like light bulb moment, but on everybody else kind of receiving it with, yeah, that's the world. one. That's the one. That's the game plan. I think because Dustin backs him up. Yeah. And Dustin is so often, like, the originator of a plan. Um, so I think that's really helpful. And, um, I don't mind that this is Steve's idea given like, again, we watch Steve scramble up the tower at the beginning of the season. So like, they gave us a reason to understand that Steve would be thinking about this. And I think it matter. I think I'm willing. There's so many nits I picked in this episode, obviously. But I'm really what. willing to hand-wave it so that later we get Dustin, like, tell him he's a genius for coming up

with the plan. Which was great. To be a lot emotionally. So, yeah. Rubik's Cube. Not even a good measure of intelligence. Very important. Love that we got that.

All right. Speaking of Nistipik. Tell me if I'm wrong about this. Eleven gets involved. Quote, the upside down is under his lair. I think they mean pain tree, but that's fine. The upside down is under his layer. and it's still frozen in time,

which means everything should be there for Briter's experiments, including ellipsies, the bath. Mallory, isn't there famously no water in the upside down just asking? And we do swim through Watergate

into just demo batheel. The pool, barb in the pool, no water. Vines, but no water. You know, where all the tunnels are go around the bodies of water in Hawkins

though that might be more structurally than anything else. Yeah, it's a good flag. It's a good flag. So is this our characters not identifying something that they should know? Or have they hauled? Is there water in Murray's truck along with everyone else?

Are they porting in their, toting in their own water for the bath? Could be that. I'm sure they're bringing in their own bags of salt. They love a bag of salt. So I'm sure they're bringing in their own bags of salt. Do you think they've got tanks of water? water with them.

Maybe. Okay. Were those tanks shattered by the free reign of bullets? That didn't hit a single person? Pepering the side of the truck that hit no human flesh? That's an interesting question. I guess, yeah, was there water anywhere in Dr. Kay's lab? Like, did we see?

But that's not where they're going. They're not going to Her lab. They're going to the Hawkins lab. Yeah. No, but like that would be evidence that you could. could bring it in and it wouldn't like immediately evaporate or something. No, I mean, I don't think water like evaporates in the upside down. I just don't think there's like there's no running water in the upside down is what I would guess.

So, you know, maybe they just have a bunch of kegs of water in the truck. That's entirely possible. Okay. Eight also wants to help. Collie's like, 11 doesn't have to do this alone. And a little bit later we hear Hopper and Joyce discuss it in a way that I once again find very troubling when Hopper says that Callie makes that Callie. makes one false move. I swear to God, I'm going to kill her.

I'm going to kill her. I will not hesitate. This was, even for hop, really weird. And weirder, actually, the Joyce wasn't like, what? She's a child?

Deep breath, my guy. Let's workshop it. No bad idea to brainstorm, except for that one. Now, I will say, I am not responding. I am not receiving Callie's pitch to Elle

in a way that warms me to Callie. I think that Callie is sharing something that is true, but I am like, you're leading a character I care about to a feat that I don't want. Guess what? Suicide packs? I'm against them. Yes. A brave take for me, but I just thought I'm mature.

So I'm not mibing with what Kali is pitching L on here. But I think that Hopper has taken this to such an extreme and worrying place. And then, you know, on the theory cornerfront, so we have a lot of different places we can potentially go with this. Like Dustin says the bridge collapses and with it the abyss, the demos, the Mifler, all the gone. Later, we will hear Colley and L just talk about this making the pact, as you say, and Colin pitching this pact. Like, when it all goes, we stay behind and we go with it.

Then there's no blood to take. No weapons to make. No child soldiers to put out into the world. One possibility. is that 11 decides to do that. We talked about this for a long time last pot. One possibility is that 11 decides to do it. Maybe that leads to her death.

I don't think either of us think that her death is the most likely outcome. Maybe it leads to some sort of depowerment. What if 11 decides, despite the little nod that she and Collie share in the truck and the way into the upside down at the very end of the episode, a little confirmation, right? Like we're on the same page here. 11 decides, I don't want to stay behind. and Collie tries to force her to, basically shifting from suicide pact to murder.

And then Hopper kills her? What's our response to it then? Yeah. I would, I would, that would sit easier with me if it wasn't premeditated. I know. Him saying that he's going to do it is like tough. It's weird.

Yeah. Okay. Can I present to you a theory that I am. recently enchanted with. Is it about Ted Wheeler? It can be. Anything can be. What is it?

Great. Tell me. Because we saw Collie project herself somewhere earlier this season when she in Hop and 11 took off and she put that projection there so that Kay and the army people could think that she was still there. I became enamored of this idea that like, and this. This is me creating like an involved fan fiction. But if like they decide not to do the suicide pact, but there still needs to be something

that has to be done. And Collie is, collie has decided that she's going to do it. She's like, I will follow you. I'll catch up with you. And then she like projects herself as if she's with them as they race away from whatever it is. But she actually has to stay behind. And so 11 thinks that Collie's there, but she's not.

And then the like, the vision will start to like flicker. because they've gotten out of range and that's when she realizes that Kali never made it out and that she's still in wherever it is. And I don't love that because we re-raised this earlier.

I can't remember if we said on the pop, but you and I talked about this. You did. You did. This idea that like Kali is going to be the death that everyone else is going to live and Kali's going to die.

And like they brought her back just so that there would be a character that we know that dies and everyone else lives. And you and I both were like, I don't like the idea of that. That feels off. Yeah. But like the way in which she keeps talking about how she wants to die. Yeah.

Feels like the duffer is giving themselves permission to kill her. She's eager to go. So we don't have to feel bad about killing her. And that worries me. I, that's a good, that projection theory is a, Good one. I agree with you that the projections feel destined to come into play in some capacity here at the end. They obviously have to. I like that as a potential path to how. I, so what you already said, like, it would feel a little just kind of like fucked up to bring Collie back just to kill her. There's that. That's the more generous and empathetic read on it. Now I'll shift to being a dick. I just don't think I don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not a character I care about. And frankly, I actually sort of appreciate that they brought her back not to march to death. I still think that's a miscalculation if that's where we're going. But when the first volume ended on the collier reveal, I'm like, I don't know that there's enough time left

to make me like really care about this character and this relationship. And they're like, don't worry we're not going to try. Yeah. And I kind of, I don't mind. that actually. Like the way that Collie has been used in that respect, not necessarily as a character we're supposed to be warming to, to have an understanding of, to have empathy for. We do, I think, have a good sense at this point of what has driven Collie to this place, why Collie is thinking the way

that she's thinking about these choices. That I think has actually been done pretty well. But if Collie, I'm not, I'm not like mourning if eight bites it at the end. I have no attachment to eight. Well, I think I would feel for 11. I think what they would make that, make it be about 11's grief. Yes. And that would not about us being sad that eight is dead. Yes.

I think, you know, okay, as you mentioned, it's really hard to keep theory corner in theory corner. I'm just going to, yeah. I'm going to say, here's Matt Duffer in the Hollywood reporter interview saying, quote, there's not going to be a red wedding situation. We're not trying to shock or upset anyone. I hope by the time people get to the end of the finale that it just feels like there's something inevitable about what happens.

To me, and before that, he said, like, it's not Game of Thrones. By the way, not a ton of main characters died in Game of Thrones anyway. But it felt like to me that's a showrunner signaling we're not going to kill people, which we've been talking about all the season. Like, what if, yeah, I saw a lot of people online today this morning, frustrated that Jonathan and Nancy didn't die. And I, as you know, I loved that scene. and I actually like love that.

That's like maybe one of my favorite scenes ever in Stranger Things. And like would it have been even better and more poignant if they had died? No, I think it matters that like now they have a direction to go towards. So I wasn't like clamoring for their death. But I do think as I've said many times, I think it's there's something that rubs me the wrong way about them like teasing. Anything could happen this season. Yeah. And then the anything that could happen is that Kali dies.

You know what I mean? Like that's just bizarre to me. Yeah. I agree. Like we've across a number of fictional universes, we've talked about this a lot. Yeah. We talked about it here on this podcast about Stranger Things that like you and I agree. Yeah.

Stakes can come in many forms, but I'm with you that there's a active like a courting of a certain. I don't know if you saw. Fear? if you saw on on Fallon that the Deffer Brothers did this thing with the Funko Pops Fallon was like give us a sense of the ending

by positioning these Funko Pops on the desk. You know what I mean? And so they like stacked like 11 and Will and Vecna like on top of each other was like one thing that they did and they were just sort of like move but they put Steve on the very edge of the desk and then they just like let him fall off.

You know what I mean? And that to me, I actually think Steve's going to be fine. And I think they were just like, they're just messing with people at this point. And I'm just sort of like, I understand the temptation to mess with people. Like, it's a very human temptation. And people certainly have like made protect Steve at all costs on this podcast, like this rallying cry. So like why wouldn't you mess with them? But if you're not going to kill anyone.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm already worried enough, I think about Dustin and Steve's. Like the if I die, you die. You die. Like I jump you jump. Yeah. shared refrain. It certainly heightens the sense that we're marching toward a really perilous

situation. So it defies belief that everybody would make it back from that. Okay, I think the question is like who, what's interesting to think about is like the number of different scenarios where somebody could be left behind or killed, like who chooses to stay behind other than potentially L or Kali to try to, because they think they need to, to protect. to get, make sure everybody else gets out okay. We've obviously had a number of scenarios across the show who was just killed. Is there anyone who's just going to be killed in battle? Like, we just saw all of those professional soldiers be destroyed.

By Nancy Wheeler. Yeah, but Nancy, but I meant by Vecna, but yes, my Nancy Wheeler also, perhaps more damningly. So like, yeah, you know, we have, we have powered up characters on our side to fight against Vecna. But it, it's, I don't want anyone. I'm not rooting for characters to die. I don't think that's the only way the story can have stakes. But I think to the Jonathan Nancy point, I like you, was happy that they made it out.

I think it is really interesting to see what their relationship in life is like moving forward. I think also undeniably the scene, which I also loved, invites you to assume that they're not going to make it out of there. So it's like, yeah, it's yet another. I don't think that undermines that. Exactly.

No one dies in that plane. Spoilers for almost women. But we've said some things out loud. But we have said some things out loud. All right. So back in sort of the scene that you were talking about where Will and Max are sitting together. And Max says she got a C-Midus in physics.

I'll trust the nerds. Here's my timeline question. Max is 14 the last time she was in school. I don't know how it works in Hawks in Indiana, but physics was a senior year. I took a junior year, but junior year, but junior year senior year. years when you take physics. Yeah, high school. Same. She was 14. Okay. Anyway. Two things worth known here, I think, among this sort of idea of we have this trauma bond together. Max tells Will about the cave. That seems like it will be important. Obviously,

the cave will be important, but Will knowing about the cave. No question. And then Max reminds us, the viewers, quote, underneath all those scars, he's still human, a psychopath with a serious god complex, but human. Yes. Bader Anakin, yeah, Gauss, Eagle, comp sort of incoming. Yes, I mean, this obviously will inspire,

this exchange in part will inspire the subsequent Will scene that we'll talk about shortly. But yeah, I'm with you, Will being aware of this memory opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. The humanity call out crucial, but just Will's knowledge of this also feels crucial. There's the question of like, can he tap into this memory? right through the hive mind, can he encourage slash like force Henry to confront this memory? And in doing that, can he use it as a way to at least try to what you were prompting us to

consider last pod to at least try to remember who he was, you know, to appeal to whatever shred of humanity might remain inside of him. And it's interesting because this is something, this cave that like the way Max has been talking about it and explaining it to Holly and now explaining it to the group to Will. It's something that makes Henry vulnerable, right? It's a weakness of his in theory. I'm using this term deliberately, not like because this is now the villain would use it, right? Like it's a thing you're afraid of so I can weaponize it against you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. And so there is a version of the story where our heroes try to do to him, basically what he has done to them, which is take a vulnerability. Yes. and exploit it. They could do that. Maybe they will.

What I think seems much, much, much, much, much, much more likely inside of the show that we have been watching for five seasons and ten years is that they attempt to use it as a bridge, right? Another way to still beat him to emerge victorious while reaching him to show him just as they have learned and have felt empowered by discovering about themselves, the thing inside of you that someone else might try to make you ashamed of or that you are ashamed of or that you can't look at fully or don't think you can. It doesn't have to be the source of your fear. Yeah. The what I always think of in something like that is I hear Robin Williams and Goodwill

hunting saying it's not your fault, right? It's not your fault. You know, and like hugging you into submission essentially. So that feels like some version of that. Yeah. to come. I agree with you. I'm giving you the old Rob Mahoney Appalachian freeze frame Rubin. Any insights from the Operation Beanstalk Planning Board? There doesn't have to be. I was just curious if you wanted to talk about. I think you saw that. I think the only thing, you know, I still have the from Mr. Clark's lesson in his chalkboard classroom, the, the time travel aspect of a wormhole, like on my mind still here at the end. Can't shake it quite. And I guess relatedly here, with Dustin's drawing and the mapping.

And the duffers have talked about this in a number of their interviews. There is, I guess, a way to draw a wormhole that looks a little bit less exactly like an hourglass than this. But that's not the path they took. This just the drawing is so hourglass-like and so reminiscent of the shape of an hour. They talked about it being an hourglass? Yeah, yeah, they did. So, like, I think that that feels like yet another timeline clue. I mean, obviously, best of all is this episode ending on the ticking of the clock,

which maybe it's just the march toward this, like, November 6th that's all happening. But, yeah, it's very hourglass-like, I think. Well, so what do you want from time travel at this point? I have no idea. We only have two hours left, so I'm, like, scared. My guess for the season would have been that, like, midway through we started. it to. I just kind of feel like we're not, I mean, potentially loop back or something.

Maybe Ted Wheeler will time travel and you will get everything you want. But like I worry that the version of time travel, not worry. But I feel like it's just going to be this memory crawling thing, which is a form of time travel. Definitely. And I think is satisfying in some way. I guess the Henry's like 12 or 13 hands on the clock thing is still on my mind, the ticking under all of the. And I guess with the November 6th, you know, again, we talked about this when we cover

the first volume of episodes, but we have like the will date. Now we have marching toward this end date. But we also had the November 6th date from Oklahoma, like from the play and that memory. So the fact that there's a Henry timeline aspect of this in his history, that just feels still like very likely to come back into play. Okay. But who knows? We got two hours left. Two hours and changed. That's not a lot. Mike is building a record-based bomb. Yeah. Even though music is no longer necessary to get people home, a needle drop will still have a big role to play in the finale.

Any guess is here on which not butthole surfers track, they'll pick. This is, this is, this is, this is all you. I have, you have the minor for music. What do you think we might? Will they break back out a classic? Like, will we get some Peter Gabriel again? You know, we already, we got the Moby return here. Or will it be something new?

I mean, I don't think it's going to be the clash, right? I don't think it's going to be Tiffany. I don't think it's going to be Kate, give Kate a rest. And we've already used the Mobe. Give Kate a rest. Let her rest.

Let her rest. No, I don't, you know, and like, I don't think we're going to use like any of Eddie's heavy metal. Yeah. I was looking at top 100 songs of 1989. I don't know. But I don't think Robin would pick anything from the top 100 songs of 1989.

So Hobbits and Dragons are Gmail.com. You have a theory about what song is going to be the sound of the destruction of the upside down. I did like Mike saying if I built the bomb, I should get to pick the song. Though I thought it was pretty weird that Mike knew how to build a bomb. I got to say, I thought that was weird. Without any explanation. Oh, 1987. Yeah.

R.M. Uh-huh. It's the end of the world as we know it. and I feel fine. That would be delightful. Okay. It's not really a good mood setter, but, you know, we'll see. A bit of an anthem, though.

Yeah. You know, that would be fun. That would be fun. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, Mike knows how to build a bomb. He also knows who Lester Bangs is. Confusing.

Mike, you're going to love almost famous. Okay. Team gears up, Nancy, doesn't think Steve should have a gun. Listen. Yeah. I, too, am very good at Duck Hunt. Yeah? Yes.

I mean, I used to be when I was a kid. I don't know how it would be now. I fucking loved it when I was once good at Duckwood. When's the last time I played? Who's to know? I want to say, I just want to shout out that Steve's backward hat look very good. It's sensational. Absolutely phenomenal.

Yeah. And all of this leads up to a very tender talk between Steve and Dustin as they arm up with the still blood state. Yeah, it was probably too emotional for everyone to purge to purge Eddie's weapons. That feels like it's bad for the medal. Don't you think it would rust if it's just like filled with demo bat? Probably. But was anybody ready to sit down and, you know, like the old Kristen Cole of the lemon with the salt, like cleaning the, who was ready for that?

We're all still mourning Eddie in our own ways. I don't know. Practical weapons enthusiast Nancy? I'm sure she was just like very happily. That's a great point. Murray would have done it probably on one of his smuggle runs. All right. We already mentioned you die, I die.

Anything else you want to say about that? I really loved this scene. I appreciated that we got it. You know, we've talked across every pod now about not only how painful it was to watch Justin and Steve for really quite a long time, both in the universe of the show and for our experience watching the show in this space with each other, but also how, especially in the last couple episodes, it just felt like this is actually not how we like want these characters to behave.

It doesn't really feel like how Steve Harrington should be behaving. Maybe Dustin, we can get there a little bit more because of the grief. So I think not only was I relieved and really glad to see them reconcile, I was, I thought it was very necessary the specific way that they apologized to each other, which was like Steve saying, instead of just being there for you, I just like, I got angry about it. I guess I got angry because things were different because I really miss you. I miss my best friend. Like he admitted that he had been behaving badly. I got angry because things were different is like that line really hit for me. It's like the most relatable thing in the world.

Really? For me. So I was very, very, very glad for this scene. I'm, of course, terrified by you die, I die, you die, I die. Terrified. I don't want either of them to die. I would prefer they not. Stay tuned.

All right. Will's coming out. Okay. I'm of two minds about this, actually. So I'm actually going to read an email from a listener because it kind of encompasses both of my feelings about this, right? Okay. So, but I will say, I have seen a mixed response to this scene, which is obviously a huge

scene that the show has been building, like we've been talking about for years. Yes. And when I think about people sitting down with their families at Christmas and watching this, yeah. It has an emotional impact on me. this is what our listener Shana wrote just Shana

I'm not sure how to pronounce just wanted to share that it's been like watching these episodes of Stranger Things with queer teens I see a lot of discord online about how Will's coming out scene

was handled and had the pleasure of watching it with my three queer teens and their two best friends one of whom is also queer they know that it was a very different landscape to come out

as gay in a small town Indiana during the 1980s because we told them and shown them enough media from the time for them to get the gist but that scene really resonated with them. We all cried together. And they said it all felt character appropriate with each

reaction with one exception, Hopper. Now, this is where I'm just going to ask for us and say, Hopper's not actually in this scene, but I'm going to keep reading this email. They expressed doubt that Hopper would have been so immediately on board and felt uncomfortable with Will being, quote, forced to come out to such a large group. I'm going to ask us again and say, this was Will's idea, right? But there's a way in which it felt like the screenplay forced to him. I don't know. They wish it had been the teens at his mom or even just his mom and Jonathan at first to protect him from what they worried about in negative response from Hopper or anyone else. They all adore him as a character slash protector, but I hadn't realized that they felt on some level that he balked the idea. When pressed, they said they felt he, Hopper, would come around quickly and take cues from Joyce.

But just the thought that that was an interesting observation from the kids of today. My 13-year-old daughter is especially attached to Robin and has been thrilled to see such powerful female gay representation from someone who also appears to be on the spectrum. daughter is too. What do you guys think was Hopper immediately cool, blah, blah, all this sort of stuff like that. So I think it's very interesting that Hopper isn't there because I agree with this email in that I think Hopper is a kind of personality that I wouldn't expect him. Hopper who's just like, I'm going to kill this kid. I don't know. It's just like he's got some emotional regulation issues and I just don't know how exactly he would respond here. I think it's like there's a plot reason that they give why Hopper isn't in that scene, right?

He's like busy getting into place and is talking about like, you know. Radio Shack. Right. So like. And that's Mike's way into the room too is to say Hopper's 15 minutes out. Hey, Hopper. Yeah, exactly. So like there's a plot reason why he's not there.

But that's a decision they made to just not have Hopper in that room. Um, uh, I, when I think about this scene meeting a lot, to people, that means a lot to me. Yes. However, and I will say, when the camera cuts to Jonathan reacting to Will, I was in floods of tears. Yeah. There are ways in which Noah so clearly, and he has talked about this in interview,

so clearly put his own experience coming out into his performance of Will here. That is profoundly impactful to me. On the whole, I don't think the scene works as well as I wanted it to. I think the Robin coming out scene is one of the best things that they've ever done on the show. We talked about this. You and I talked about another show that came out this week that had a coming out scene that I thought was just like one of the best things I've seen on television in a long time. Yeah. These things can be done so, so well.

I think it was a huge misfire to have all of these people in the room. I think I understand. So the Duffers have talked about the fact that when they originally, concocted the scene it was just Joyce and Will and they tried it that way a couple times and it just wasn't working so then they added everyone in and I'm wondering if they're like this email suggests was there not a middle ground where perhaps we could have Mike certainly Jonathan certainly Dustin certainly Lucas certainly let's add 11 and max if you want to but like you know that keep it to that so you don't have like Vicky Robin if you want to have her there sure

Steve needs to be there. Vicky needs to be there. Cally needs to be there. Murray needs to be there. And then you and I had been joking about this, but like everyone has like kind of a reaction except for Nancy. And we were both like, why are you putting Nancy there if she's not going to have any kind of like tender reaction or whatever? Anyway, I just feel like I don't think they nailed it.

But again, I've been really curious how it lands with other people. And so I was just like reading a bunch of reactions. And I've heard from, I saw from a bunch of like queer people that they thought that they absolutely did not land it. And then some queer people are like, this was incredible. And I really, really loved it. I heard from like, and then there's like the bad faith response from people who just like don't want this storyline in their story in the first place.

And that, of course, is not at all what we're talking about here. But I don't know. I wanted more from this scene, I guess. But I feel conflicted because if it mattered to people, then that matters to me. So I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. I'm fascinated by the quotes about the insight about this starting originally and the creative

sketch as just a will Joyce moment and them feeling like that wasn't working. I'm like I'm really surprised by that. Not that the initial idea would have been to try that, but that it wasn't working. Like I would love to know more about in what way and why. And this is the quote Matt Duffer says, we worked on that for a while with just Joyce and it never felt right. Once we involved the friends, it started to click more into place.

Yeah. That's too vague for your purposes. Yeah. I just wanted to get that quote in there. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm so curious about that because now obviously we get a number, I mean, across the entire series, but in this, just in this episode,

we get a number of Will Joyce moments. And Joyce is, you know, a person once again in this episode who Will is. is, you know, confiding in that initial, like, stretch of, of Joyce coming to tell Will that Max is safe. And that's when, as we already talked about, he explains to her, like, all of these things that happened in season two that he was a part of in a way he has only now come to, like, fully see and understand that question of what could Vecta do with 12 more wills and Joyce saying, you know, nothing that happened is your fault. And then when, as we just mentioned, like when Mike comes into the room, Will and Joyce once again have been talking because Will pulled Joyce to say, like, I have something else. Like I didn't, when you, when we were talking earlier about what I saw in Vecna's mind and what happened, like there's more.

And Will is telling Joyce, you know, he weakens you by turning your own mind against you by bringing out everything inside you that hurts. And then when Mike comes in, it's like, no, you should be here too. So I'm just kind of fascinated. feeling like more people than Joyce should be in the room makes sense to me. I'm with you. I think that Jonathan, a version of that scene with Jonathan, Joyce and Will, I think would have been lovely. Jonathan and Will in season four and Jonathan reaching out to, first of all, just observing him in the rearview mirror of the Surfer Boys truck and then at the pizza restaurant saying like, nothing ever could make me not love you.

I'm always here for you. I'm always here if you need to talk to me. You don't talk to me the way you used to. And that's probably my fault. But I'm reminding you that you can and that no matter what, I will love you and I will be here to support you. I think a version of the scene with the three of them would have been so wonderful. I agree.

I think certainly a version of this moment where Mike and Lucas and Dustin and 11 and Max are there and Robin makes sense. I also thought it was odd to have like such a large group of people. I think the way that the scene. explains it, to take away Vecna's ability to turn any of these people against each other in any way. You know, we're given basically an explanation in the episode for why Will feels like he needs to say this to everybody. But, you know, rooting that moment in the deepest bonds, I think, would have been a better choice. All that said. Yeah.

I was really moved by Noah's performance in this scene, which I thought was like one of his better scenes on the season and was like really moving and very strong. I like you, in particular, Jonathan's face and Robin's face because Robin has, you know, this like smile and is nodding and is encouraging him and eventually we'll say like you didn't need the truth serum, right? But Jonathan just the, and it's so early, like, he knows before anyone else, you know, he knows what's happening here. Right away. Will is like, you know, Lucky Charms and Steve Martin and Jonathan is just breaking because like he knows what's happening. And that was like, amazing. Charlie Heaton is like my MVP of this season. Like I think he's been great.

I think it's just such a good Jonathan season. He's been great. And I thought obviously Joyce, you know, that was she's the first one to embrace. will. This will never happen. That was all really wonderful. Lucas being the first of the kids to stand up and hug him. Yeah.

Like the or me hug, or me hug. Like those moments were really lovely. And I also just loved in Noah's performance, but for Will as a character and like the history inside of the party and inside of the family, these characters who have, the people who have actually been together since the beginning or for, you know,

more time and have shared. really meaningful experiences. And like we talked about a lot, you know, the Rob and Will relationship is newer, comparatively speaking. So it's not like nobody could be in that room who hasn't been there since season one. That's not, that's obviously not what either of us are saying. But I just thought it was all the way that Will was running through like all of the things that they share, all of the things that bind them to each other, like their childhood, their friendship, the party, their family, but just the, the idea of these touchstones of a shared experience and how deeply scary it would be to have a cause for somebody to make you question

for a minute whether that would be enough. Like, that's when the show is just that it's absolute best. And so I was also like, why are some of these people in the room? But when Will was speaking and Jonathan's face was crumbling and Robin was nodding and Mike and Lucas and Dustin stood to hug him, I was like, this is really, this is lovely. So it was, yeah, it was, I'm not surprised to hear that the reception, I guess, has been a little mixed and obviously. At least from what I've been able to see, obviously, like me trolling through Reddit and social media is not a perfect temp check on people. One thing that he said in his coming out that I thought was particularly well written was,

when he was like he was like one thing I thought about people being worried about me which would make me feel like there's something wrong with me and I really love so I push you away well no but I really love that like that just that part because like that is so often I think like a well-meaning reaction from people of like oh I'm just worried because your life is going to be harder or this that and the other thing

And so to identify that is like harmful in its own right. You know what I mean? Because I think that there are some people who would say, well, I support you, but I'm just worried about you. Right. And and underlining what the message of that is, which is there's something incorrect about you. You know, and that's true. I mean, like it's not you that's wrong. It's the world that's wrong.

Like all these sort of things. But like that that there is like some manner of harm inside of. of even that well-meaning phrase. And so he doesn't say like, you know, I'm worried you're bigots or I'm worried you'll hate me or whatever. He's like, I'm worried that actually this kind of kind response carries this other thing that will drive a wedge. I thought that was really interesting.

Yeah. No, I really agree. I agree. And, you know, for Henry to, because as well as explaining this, he's like, this is what he showed me, this future. where these things have happened. And, you know, for Will to say at the end of this scene, like, L, you need me and I need to be there and I'm ready to be. And like I won't give Henry a character, by the way, who it's interesting to think of Henry choosing to try to control and harm people this way.

because, of course, when he was young, he always felt like you don't belong. Like something is different about you. That was how he explained to 11 that the world made him feel. And Brenner controlled and harmed him. And Brenner, yeah. And like, you know, for Will to say, like, it's not just the literal, I'm not going to let him control my mind. But like, I'm not going to let him control my fear, you know. It's such a powerful idea.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm with you. It's very, it is an intense and powerful thing to think about, you know, people watching this and receiving that message and feeling the way Will did by talking to Robin, encouraged and empowered by it. That's a, that's a really cool thing to think about. Yeah. Sorry. That makes me emotional. Okay. So let me head into battle. Nancy.

Nancy plays Rambo. Nancy loves a gun. Nancy loves a gun, which is something we've talked about since season one. Nancy's never killed a human before as far as we know and just gleefully mows down a bunch of people and then like, and then she and hopper just like, yeah. By the way, I do really want to go back to Nancy for just one second and say because I just thought it was so funny when we were watching this episode and we were watching the coming out scene and I rewound it several times. clock how everyone was responding. And I was like, nothing from Nancy. You know, and Diana

was watching with me called her, who hates Nancy Wheeler, called her a Christian pic-me princess. The fact that that is coupled with this like gun toting, killing people and like essentially exchanging fist bumps with hop over it is

like, it's not painting a wonderful picture of Nancy Wheeler. We get a lot meaningful glances with with you know shared by people as the plot armor protects both them and the truck as it heads into the upside down military on their heels vectna locking the kids in the collective trance at the uh 13 spots around the table anything any meaningful glance at particular that you want to highlight or anything in this in these final moments

um i think we've hit them all the the the nod the little nod between 11 and and collie um i was when the kids' eyes rolled up and their head snapped back. I was like, did Derek's eyes definitely like turn fully? My hope was like he was resisting somehow. But no. And then whether, yeah, whether genuinely Holly's like head trauma could potentially spare her in some way. We need all 12, but we don't need them conscious. Yeah, exactly.

All right. Theory Corner, we've already talked about a lot of this. Yeah. What about the Holly, the heroic figury? Is she going to find that again? And is that going to be. helpful in some way or does she find that like max's song she doesn't even need it interesting yeah because like i guess it could have served its purpose already huh hmm i hope she picks that up yeah i don't know i'd like

i too i'm i kind of want the payoff of her picking that up even though we got it i guess when the portal opened at the end of of episode six um yeah it felt like when it broke and shattered and fell off that we have to like reclaim that and take that back into our possession as the totem and how we continue to hold that truth in our minds alongside the actually we don't need these things just the meaningful associations that they bring. I don't totally know. Yeah. Tune and find out. The only other thing that I have on this list that that I put together here, we've already kind of talked about it, but this idea that like do we think Henry was made to feel ashamed.

Like if the, again, to this idea of a bug, not a feature, like, um, Henry bludgeoning that scientist to death, which we both were like, dang. Uh, I know you got shot in the hand, but that's a lot. Given that the way that Vecna, Henry, VH1 works by making you feel shame, do we think young Henry was manipulated in the first place by something like the mind flare making him feel shame for having, you know, did someone shame him into submission? Yeah. Of like your, there's something wrong with you that you bludgeon.

And I kind of, yeah, there's a little something wrong with you, Henry, if you bludgeoned that guy to death. But, um, right. But, you know, is that, was there, is that, is the cave such a dreaded place for him? Mm-hmm. Though how does the cave connect to the mind shaft? I don't know. But is it such a dreaded place for him because it is a source of shame and he doesn't want to go there. And Will 11 or Collie or will witness this and that will be the way in which they can say that wasn't your fault.

You were just a kid. Yeah. And he shot you in the hand. Yes. I don't know. And then you made your paint tree look like a hand. It really does all connect. Yes.

To Ted Wheeler who grasped that golf club with bold of his hands. hands for the empty bacon plate with his hands. Um, yeah, I think this who was held Holly Wheeler in his lap with both hands so that his wife Karen Wheeler would not go fuck Billy. Let this be a lesson to have a comfy recliner in your home. Something to think about. Something to think about. Um, voted for Reagan with both hands.

He put that Reagan signpost in his lawn with his hands or gave someone else money to do it with His hands. Oh, Ted, you're on our minds. I think this is as close to a lock as anything on the board. That Henry has this shame that was exploited. Because, and I think what you said, maybe it's from this moment, the bludgeoning with the rock. But maybe, you know, you introduced the possibility last pod that maybe you're only capable of doing something like that because of what you have already done or what you already have. of you. So it could be something, you know, prior to that as well. But the parallels that we have

discussed at length across covering the show between 11 and 1 are there and core to the text. The parallels between Vecna, between Henry and Will and Henry and these other kids that he's seeking and saying out loud every chance he gets, I'm taking these kids because they're weak. They can easily be controlled. I don't know that the show totally like makes sense. if that's not him projecting his own past trauma and insecurity onto the thing that he is doing. So that feels like I think a guarantee. Yeah, yeah. All right.

Anything else in Theory Corner that we haven't gotten to? What's your final death prediction? Who do you think is going to, you think it's, is it just going to be Collie? Is that it? That's it. What's not like Murray? Sure. I mean, I don't want Murray to die.

I want his weird sex jokes to live on. I guess they would even if he died. This just seems such like. I hope they didn't bring Mr. Clark back just to kill him at some point. That's terrible. He's at least not on the upside down. But is this beanstock going to work? Are these worlds not crashing into each other?

Is everyone in Hawkins like fine? Are the only people in peril in the upside down? So you're wondering, does everyone die? Does the world end? Could be that. Okay. Maybe it's just Collie. But maybe it's existence as we know it.

Collie, Henry and Murray. I want Murray to be okay. pulling Murray back off the board. Okay. He would be like the right kind of person to kill, actually, but like that would be really sad. Maybe we'll find out Ted Wheeler died episodes ago and that's why no one's brought him up. No, that would be terrible.

But we could lose Ted still. So you think final, final chance, you think Dustin and Steve are fine. I do. Yeah. Okay. I really hope so. I'm scared still, but I really, I hope they're okay. And we think 11, final prediction, power's gone, but on this mortal coil.

I think so. Or TBD. Yeah. Or at least like, I don't know, says her powers are gone or something like that. And then we see her like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think she lives. Yeah.

Okay. Hopper? They said they've had the final scene of this show in their mind for years. Final scene. Is it 11 in front of a waterfall looking at a picture of, of Collie and then holding a note in her other hand from Hopp that says, sorry I shot her. Is it, oh, what if Hopper kills Collie? If Hopper kills Collie, Hopper kills Collie, Eleven will not forgive him.

No, I don't think so. So what if instead of a death, it's just like the end of a relationship? A rupture. Yeah. A rift of a different sort. I feel like Hopper's going to kill Collie. Like, I really do. I think he's definitely going to be on the brink of doing it at some point.

And perhaps then 11 will be like, I want to do this. This is what I want. You have to let me do this the way that you told me I had to let you go into that hallway. It's super weird if this ended with Hopper killing again. He's like, my kid died. I mean, to go back to this, I will say there's a version of this makes sense to me in a very like Joel and Ellie last of us. I will kill everyone in the world to protect.

you kind of way. Yes. It's just if Joel had been like, I'm going to kill another fucking kid so that you can live. And we had to sit with that for several days. Versus in the moment of. We're getting that. Cordyceps grows in the brain. Sorry.

Yeah. Okay. What if the final scene is counting down to New Year's Eve, 19. We're in November. or 1989, right? 87. Oh, 87. Oh, we've got time.

But what if it's like counting down to 1990? Like, the 80s are over. It's the 90s now. They're applying for college and somehow Buffy Aceh or SATs. Yeah, they graduate high school. Yeah. And they're all together for New Year's, something like that. And it's 1990.

That would be nice. Yeah. We did it. We did the 80s sort of thing. do you love how did it hurt your feelings you number one timeline detective for me to say hey is it 89 or 87 what year are we in it yeah it's fine i'm very helpfully again on the sneakers i just received it just says 87 right on them really handy great okay i previously mentioned that my season three shoes also have a date on them so that's like that's great oh yeah just look to your

shoes just look at my shoes yeah we will be back to cover the finale of stranger things yep at what time we don't know time matters a lot to Vecna it matters to us as well but we don't have a clear answer for that but we'll figure it out and we'll let you know thank you to everyone who worked on this very special December 26th episode of House of R what a crew today

it's like we just like brought it an all-star team here Tucker Tashian thank you so much Elisa Suji thank you so much Elisa Suji, thank you so much. Oscar De La Luce, thank you so much. Keith Fujimoto, thank you so much. Reginald-Ram Powell.

Thank you so much. Jomi, at some point, I'm sure, will be involved in some social media stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you to Joanna Robinson. And actually your husband's Jim Jams. I was so warm. I had to shed the layer.

I tried. That's all. Anything else we want to say? No, I will see you for the finale. I just realized one. I do what you're going to say. Well, is that why the finale's on New Year's Eve? Because it ends with counting down New Year's Eve 1990.

And we all get to count in the new year with the Hawking's kids together. Let me throw this out there. If so, that makes sense for the finale. Don't know why we had to also do Thanksgiving and Christmas. But it's been great. Thanks, Netflix. Here are the best. Three holidays in a row, we.

have some notes, but it has been genuinely a joy to talk about this show together. I'm pretty sad that we only have one episode left. I'm bummed. I know. But then Nine of Seven Kingdoms is here. Okay. I thanked everyone, and I meant it. See you soon.

Bye!