House of R - 'Stranger Things' Season 5, Episodes 1 and 2 Deep Dive

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Mal and Jo are back in the Upside Down to dive deep into the first two episodes of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5, Volume 1! (00:00) Intro (4:25) Opening Snapshot (28:39) "Chapter One: The Crawl" (1:56:33) "Chapter Two: The Vanishing of …" Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producers: Carlos Chiriboga, Jon Jones, and Mike Wargon Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Prepare for one last adventure at Target. Visit target.com/StrangerThings Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today for an episode that is months, nay, years in the making. It's Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how are you doing? Said the dingus with the rubber chicken. Wow. Okay, hello. I mean, it's the highest compliment possible. That's true. That means you're by Steve Harrington. Steve the Hare. Yeah. Listen, Mallory and I are here to talk to you about Stranger Things, Season 5, Volume 1. part one, aka the first two episodes of season five, and we could not be more excited. We've been waiting for this. Here it is, at last,

coming to you after this break. This episode of House of ours presented by Target. Have you heard? Stranger Things is back at Target, and it's time to gear up for the upside down. Head back to the 80s with awesome exclusives like the unreal

demigorgant popcorn bucket, the fog over Hawkins candle that reveals secret messages. and the Demogorgon bundle box that's full of cool surprises. New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone who's listening and to you, Mother Rubin.

We're recording this a couple days in advance, but it should be dropping right around the holidays when people finally get their first taste of Stranger Things season five. We are splitting this first volume drop of four episodes into two parts, So we're just talking about Sanger Things, season 5, one and two today. That's right. Yes. And then three and four next week.

So send us your theories. I really, really want to go like full yarn wall theory corner in next week's episode as we get excited for the break until the next batch of episodes at Christmas. We're also next week doing best fights of the century so far. Hobbes and Dragons at GML.com. Stranger Things theories. Best fights in the century could be battles, could be duels, could be verbal spats. It can be however you decide to define it, but it should be a house of our friendly property. Those are two banger episodes.

It's Stranger Things Time. Mallory Rubin, how can folks keep track of everything? Stay on top of our trip back to Hawkins, Indiana. Thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend follow the pod. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of Art on Spotify, incredible stuff, and on the Ringervverse YouTube channel.

So follow along there as well. And then while you're at it, follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram. We are on TikTok. We are on Twitter, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And Joe already mentioned the inbox. Send us emails.

Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Stranger Things Season 5 thoughts, best fights of the century, but also Percy Jackson season two is coming. Avatar Fire and Ash is coming. We're only like a few weeks away from recording one of our year-in staples, the best moments of the year in our universe. So send us thoughts on that. Just keep the emails coming.

We love to hear from you all. We do. We love them. Spoiler warning. Yes. Up through season five episode two of Stranger Things. That's what we are doing. I'm feeling no stress or strain about the first shadow question we had when our season

and four coverage. I don't think it really needs to, like, interact with today's episode. So I'm not, we're not going to go into it very much at all, if at all. Full disclosure, Melier and I have seen episodes three and four, we're not going to talk about them. No. We're going to hold each other accountable and we're just going to keep it up through episode two. Yes. But we have seen episodes three and four, and we will talk about them next week. And we're very excited to talk about them next week. I can't wait. But today we're focusing on the crawl and the vanishing of dot, dot, dot, dot. And now we've issued the spoiler warning so we can say what comes after the dot, dot, dot. Holly Wheeler. That's the actual episode title.

It is Holly Wheeler. What a time to be us, people who've been maintaining a Holly trauma tracker on their Stranger Things rewatch pods, incredible stuff. Revelation, it's exactly what we thought it was. Okay, let's go now to our opening snapshot. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it, presenting the friars turkey breast only from Boershead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter.

Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Boershead committed to craft since 1905. We're going to start really quickly with two mailbag things. It's just incredible stuff. Highlighted and yellow in the outline and a bold font. That's how you know it made it impact on your own. your life. First and foremost. Yeah. If you do not listen to our wicked episode, that is the

episode in which I confessed, like, the elderly person that I am that I did not know how to turn off my watch during a movie. Got many people with like, hey, grandpa, photos attached to emails showing me step by step how to do it. There's, turns out there's a cinema mode. It's like two clicks away and I'm in cinema mode. So thank you all so much. Now I know how to do that. I Listen, is that the reason why I chose to open the episode with the Steve Harrington reference for you in a podcast where we'll be talking about episodes of Strangling Things where Steve is routinely ridiculed for not understanding how technology works? No, it's actually not why I did that. But now, upon you sharing this mailbag, feels even more apt. The comparison just keep coming through.

I did it because you're the most important person in my life other than Steve, the Hare Harrington. Oh, my gosh. He's still number one. Yeah, obviously. But you're number two. You're both after Halo. That's a fact. Adam is somewhere on the list as well.

Okay, so also, after our final season four rewatch pod, and we should say, if you have not listened to it, we rewatched all of Stranger Things for the last few months. So if you want a refresher on any of those, you know, you can find them all. Season 1, season 2, season 3, and season 4, two parts over the last few months on this feed. Plus our original season 4 podcast where we went actually. beat by beat through all of it.

So there you go. It's all they're waiting for you. But a question that I had at the end of our season four podcast coverage was what was the music playing while Vecna slash Henry slash one was sort of monologing about his backstory. And many, many, many of you reached out to let me know that this is an instrumental piece called Prophecies by Philip Glass that was originally in a documentary, also used in Zach Snyers Watchman. It's an amazing piece, and I'm glad that I can now sort of call it up whenever I feel like monologuing dramatically about my past.

Prophecy is how apt, you know. Here we are. Here we are. Season 5. As we already mentioned, the release schedule here is fun and funky. Thanks so much for the holiday treats Netflix. We do appreciate you. Volume 1, episodes 1 through 4, dropping right now Thanksgiving.

Yeah. Volume 2 episodes 5 through 7 dropping Christmas. us, volume three episode eight, the finale dropping New Year's Eve into New Year's. So that is the sketch. In terms of like the timing of the world that we are in in Hawkins, Indiana, we open, we'll be really open in 1983 with the cold open. We'll talk about that in a second. But we are set in November 3rd, 1987, which is 20 months after the events of season four,

which is March, 1986. And as Lucas will remind us, four years minus three days from the anniversary of November 6, 1983, the day Will Byers went missing. That means, folks, if you're doing your math at home, on your fingers, on an abacus, whatever you like, it has allegedly only been four years since those teeny tiny children first played D&D together in the Wheeler basement in Hawkins, Indiana. So we are meant to believe that all of these children have aged a mere four years since. Now, is that the most unbelievable thing in a story of monsters and boop galore?

Perhaps. But here we are, at the end of all things, suspending our disbelief about how old these children are. Holly Wheeler, who was like a babbling baby, is now being played by a 13-year-old girl. And this is just how time works in Hockets, Indiana. It's fine. You know, that wizard, maybe he's a clockmaker. What is time here in Hawkins and the upside down? Anyway, I did find the cementing of the canonical timeline, helpful, and because genuinely

of the actual real-life passage of time and the aging of the cast necessary, necessary to orient the viewership. I had the same reaction to you. It is gobsmacking to confront the passage of time inside of the world. in many ways just because of how, you know, how much the kids have all aged and grown. But also then you start to think, okay, so like the Byers clan has been living at Castle Wheeler for a year and a half. Do you think they've been at the Wheelers for a year and a half?

Or did they, like, spend some time at the Sinclair's and they were at Henderson's? You know, they've been, like, bopping around. It's possible that they've been, it's possible they've been bopping around. I mean, we know that basically every parent in Hawkinson, Indiana has no idea where their children are at any point in time or what is happening inside of their home. So the fact that we have like the established, you know, did you use the Henderson Tunnel exchange between Hop and L at one point? We know all of their houses are going to be connected to this tunnel, a vine system. They're tapping into the season two tunnels. Great way to bring those

back into the mix here. Maybe they had to actually take up residence at some point in order to do that and just no questions were asked by the homeowners slash parents. I wouldn't be shocked. But also, if they had just been making use of a spare bedroom and the Wheeler basement for this entire time. And Ted had been deprived of his breakfast bacon the entire time. I also would not be surprised by that. I have to say. Yeah. Oh, I'm with you.

I'm with Ted on this. Of course. Get out. Oh, this is my house. It's too long. It's too long. Get out. Also, just like, if you think about everything that's happened the last four years, like, you know, if it was only, it was only 3.

Three years, less than three years. Last season, it's like Hopper went to a Russian prison, an entire mall was built and demolished. Like, a lot has happened to these children in these four years, and a lot more is going to happen. The Holly Trauma Tracker TM, which we have been checking in on, is now officially retired. The subtext is now text. It is just what is happening actively to Holly Wheeler. So, but I'm glad that you had the idea to note every, everything that has been sort of dogging her along the way since she first wandered down the flickering light hallway and saw the demigorgian sort of trying to break through the wall, broke through the ceiling this time. Okay.

That's right. How's season five going for you so far? Two, like, talking about two episodes in. Yes. How's the two? Just the first two. How's it going? I'm having fun.

I quite enjoyed these first two. I thought the premiere was great. I like the premiere. Yeah, I thought the premiere was really excellent. I think Stranger Things across its seasons tends to nail the premiere and nail the finale. It's kind of amazing, actually, when you compare this to where we are in, like,

recent history with genre stories in particular and how often so many of them whiff on one of the bookends, like the enviable consistency of what Stranger Things has been able to do here. We'll see if that continues in the final season, and certainly hope so. But the first bookend, it has continued. The premiere was awesome.

Great to be back with our friends. I think that the, one of the questions that I had watching the trailers, which we only very briefly talked about across some of our rewatch pods, we never went into detail. But there was like a visual continuity across them. Like a lot of it looked like it was taking place in similar spaces

and maybe in a concentrated span of time. And after starting season five, I feel more assured on that front that we are, and obviously Lucas has been one of the main voices of this, but giving us the dates, you know, reminding us of how close we are now in the beginning of the season five timeline to this key marker with Will being taken into the upside down the moment that started at all, all of this talk about the final battle beginning. It just seems like this entire season is going to take place over just a few days. I guess the only counter argument to that at this point is that we have also seen the bulk of what was presented to us in the trailers already through season. and five, not through the first two episodes, but just in general. There's definitely some stuff we haven't seen, which we maybe talk about next pod. Yeah, you're right.

I shouldn't say specifically what in the trailer because that, but yeah, there's some stuff that we haven't seen yet. There is some, but we were wondering like, oh, is it possible that this is just a trailer for, like, volume one? And the answer is, like, seemingly no. Right. But it's very front-loaded, which was our assumption and was a reasonable assumption and is probably what it should be. Like, don't show us a ton of stuff from the back of the final season. They might give us another trailer for volume two. I mean, that would be amazing.

That would be great. So, yeah, I'm so curious to see what the eventual paces, but it seems like it's going to be contained, I think, to just a brief little brush here. Like a couple days, like a couple days in life. Once again, time passes this way. I will say there's been a lot of emphasis in like various taglines and March and stuff like that about like it ends where it began. So like, yeah, this idea of like November 6th being the end date is going to end on this. this anniversary. Will it end on the anniversary?

Will we go back in time as Mallory is dearly hoping that we will? Tune in to find out. I really agree with you. I really like the first episode a lot. And something of the deference of said in a ton of interviews for like years now, basically is like we're not going to do the usual table setting that we do in a season of stranger things. We're just going to be off to the races.

There's no time. Like we ended season four with the world. world's cracking open. So you can't really just, and the example they always use in every interview is like concentrate on who Steve's dating. Like you can't just like check in on that. You can't check in Robin and Steve in their day job, except we do because we get radio station stuff with them.

The squawk. Steve is definitely concerned about who he's dating this season. So, you know, it's there. But that's sort of like everyday stuff up against the strange and the encroachment of the strange and unusual has always. been such a pleasure in stranger things. So it's nice, at least in this first episode, to get the Byers Wheeler family breakfast or the boys biking with Holly to school or all, you know, all the other every, like, however, this thing that Robin says in her, in her radio show,

just sort of like, study for that test, go on that date. Like, try to keep life normal as possible. But then we're, you know, the first episode is titled The Crawl. Like, we're into mission planning very quickly inside of this episode. So that is like. very clear that we're just off to the races and then TikTok goes mechna's clock and we're only a couple days away from the end of all things, I guess. So there we are. Yeah. And I guess, you know, in the premiere, especially and across these first two episodes, I do think we got actually a couple of those necessary quiet moments or deeply interpersonal moments.

I'm curious how given the need for that kind of frenetic we're marching toward the end pace of season five, in its totality across the three volumes, how much room there will be for a thing that I think we both really love about stranger things? And I think also consider not just something we enjoy, but something that feels kind of elemental to its DNA. That'll be something for us to continue to track, no doubt. And I think kind of relatedly, I'm curious to see how the balance feels, because something that's always been fascinating about the show inside of each season, but also across seasons is the way that the character pairings, this is something we've tracked across or rewatched and really enjoyed tracking, how they have been so expertly, with a couple exceptions

where it didn't work as well, so expertly evolved and tweaked, right? We get something like Dustin and Steve in season two, and we're like, how did, who thought of this? Who thought to give us this magical alchemy, et cetera? This is through two episodes without question undeniably because we are poised for this final battle. We got to get the party ready. Lucas and the episodes that we're talking about today makes this beautiful kind of impassioned plea to max. We need everyone. We need all of us together. The entire party. There's this big emphasis on everybody doing this together, which is thematically lovely. It does change a little bit the kind of core calculus of like how do you then break people off in pairs or trios or

quartets inside of that. And that was also one of the things I liked a lot about the premiere. curious to see how it continues across the entire season, but it felt like, okay, we have achieved both things at the start of the season where everybody is working together for the crawl, for example, but we have these units and these factions inside that are operating along lines and friend groups that makes sense to us. And then also you get something like Robin and Will, which we'll talk about a lot today, obviously, breaking off and giving us a new dynamic. So that's always something that's just so crucial to like the brew of stranger things. really, I hope that's possible to keep doing that one.

There's so much action that's necessary to center. I think what's interesting to me from my, like, I like to think about, you know, there's like the story world element, but then there's always like me thinking about the writer's room. Yes. And so it's just sort of like, if they're in the writer's room and they're like, hey, maybe we haven't done the best job getting audiences invested in XYZ character, we really need to make sure that audiences are invested in XYZ storyline. they've got some like magic bullets inside of the cast that they can use.

And so like Maya Hawk is one of them and Joe Curie is another one of them. You know what I mean? And like usually they're together, but in this first episode, they're split apart because they're just like sort of lethal on their own. And so, you know, if as we've discussed, Will has been sort of backgrounded a bit, will we put him with Robin? And everyone's sitting up and paying attention to Robin and right? and then rightly so well, you know, and stuff like that. And Jonathan similarly, like, they were completely exiled in their own plotline with the help of Argyle as sort of, like, comedy gold last season. Right.

So putting Jonathan and Steve together in a van is like a really interesting way to get us hooked into, like, what's going out with Jonathan Byers. So I just think that sort of like writer's room, who are the characters? You know, they talk, I remember at the end of, of. of like in endgame and infinity war, Marvel would talk about this a lot in terms of like, how do we group who's going to chemically work together? Yes. Who's going to like keep people invested and interested in various plotlines? That's always my favorite example is like putting Thor with the Guardians.

And I'm just like, I have never felt so alive. No notes. No notes. Okay. Something we've been doing in these Rewatch, Strange Things Rewatch podcast is isolating a scene from the episodes we're about to talk about that we feel like really. represents what Stranger Things is and does. And we decided to continue that tradition with these episodes. So we are going to go kind of beat by beat through these episodes, but we thought we

would start by pulling out something that we thought really nailed, even though, as the Duffer says, we're starting with like somewhat different dynamic than we usually do at these are stranger things. But what still feels core stranger things that we saw in these first two episodes? Mallory, what do you have here? So I don't know what you're picking for this and you don't know my pick either. I won't be surprised if we have the same pick here, though. I also won't be surprised if we have different picks. We will definitely talk about the scene I'm about to mention. We'll go beat by beat through it and talk about it in more detail in the deep dive. I could not possibly have loved more the scene between Mike and Holly. That's my

for Joanna. Without question. Without question. Yeah. This is like a pantheon, stranger thing. scene. And again, so maybe we keep it quicker here because we'll go through a beat by being the context of the episode. But like, first of all, Mike Wheeler on the come up. An all-time turnaround on a character. Mike Wheeler, my mortal enemy last season is, and you know, the deference have talked about this, about the way in which they, like, wanted to bring Mike back into this, like, leadership

role in this season. So Mike is like, when Mike and Nancy are giving like the battle plans, like, Mike is like sort of the general of his little battalion of the high school boys. But yeah, Big Brother Mike Wheeler, you know, after how obtuse he was, emotionally obtuse he was last season, is just a huge turnaround for this character. Yeah. And I'm really also enjoying that Mike Nancy tie and just obviously the Wheeler family in general is very central not the four in these first two episodes at the beginning of the season. So, you know, did we want to both, did we, did we say, hey, would it be would it be responsible and proper to do the entire podcast on TED.

You know, we didn't actually say it out loud. I think we probably both thought it. But we're going to be spending a lot of time on the Wheatlish today. Yeah. We'll talk more about like the potential, you know, theory corner forecasting of the Holly, the heroic figurine and the D&D character and the idea of the cleric and the dimension door and all of that. I think we both want to talk more about what Mike says about monsters as well and we can

come back to that. But just in like this big picture sense. This idea that is captured in this scene of what we pass down and share with each other, including something like our love of Dungeons and Dragons or how do you process your way forward if you feel afraid, right? So you have what Mike is sharing with Holly here, made me think of even just like Lucas handing Erica. I know.

I was thinking a lot about Erica. Yeah. Yeah. And like, obviously the version of this that we get with Will and Jonathan is really different, but like it's of a piece with Jonathan sharing the clash with Will. Right? And the way that these relationships help everybody find a sense of like comfort and belonging and refuge in that embrace is just so core to what Stranger Things is.

And the idea that you could find your courage by playing a game with your friends, you could believe that you could be the hero or that you could be brave through a fantasy land. Like that's part of why we love watching Stranger Things the show. That's part of what this show. show does for the people who watch it. So I really love that. I just really love it. I think also just this idea of broadening the tent of what the party means, you know,

when Luke is talking to Max about like, we need the entire party, a scene that like broke my heart. Oh, my God. But when he's talking about that and just thinking about all the time, like in season one, when 11 is there and Mike's like, she's part of the party now and Lucas is resistant to that. When Max shows up and Mike is resistant to Max being part of the party, but she's brought into the fold, right? And then we've got like Eddie is part of their party. Erica brought in as part,

you know, like how we've just like been opening the doors to all these other people. And that, you know, this idea that Mike is like, I was going to give this to you in a couple years. Like I've been planning for this, Holly. I've been planning to introduce you into this world of D&D. And that's just like, especially for a character like Mike who at other times in the series has been over D&D, done with D&D. You know what I mean? This idea that he's sort of like back in thinking about it this way is just really very special. Yes.

And I think also a very necessary counterweight to the Hellfire conversations that Dustin, Mike, Lucas, and Will are having. Like you sort of have to see that this is still such a foundational part of their lives and their shared experience. So yeah, it was really special. And I love thinking about, you know, the nature of community and the party, but also just the idea. of inheritance as something that is like driven by identity and an embrace rather than like, I mean, he is literally handing on something that can be like a totem or perhaps a talisman. We talked about, you know, we talked about that. Season four.

So, yeah, and then, you know, I was thinking back as well to our conversations about the, Mike, you're the heart scenes in season four and so preposterous in season four. I mean, I was something I was say in addition to this like Big Brother Mike, thing is he's also just actually paying attention to Will, which is just something he did not have space for last season and really, really hurt my feelings personally. And so, like, all of the boys are being much more solicitous to and kind towards Will, which just means a lot to me because that kid has been through so fucking much. So yeah, Mike is, yeah, Mike is the heart of the party is earning it a bit more this season, I would say, so far.

A couple episodes in. Okay. Really quickly, I wanted to run down this list of movies that the Duffers cited as season five references. This is by no mean an exhaustive list. They just sort of rattled these off off the top of their head in a video, a package interview they did for time. And so, you know, they were just sort of like in the moment thinking of things.

This is not exhaustive. I do have answers for a lot of these, but they're going to be. be more episode three and four answers as to what these are doing here. But I will just say, children of men, an absolute iconic classic film. Great. The Great Escape, which already got a reference in season four. Yeah. The Lost Boys of Vampire Classic, Home Alone, which they said in that video was more sort of like

booby trap focused than anything else. The Cell, Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind, Back to the Future, eternally here. Always. Terminator 2, just for Linda, Linda Hamilton, or for something else. We'll talk about that. Nightmare and Elm Street 3, Dream Warrior, something we talked about a lot when we talked about season four, Dream Warriors specifically, which is my friend Kristen's favorite Nightmare on Elm Street movie and the only reason I've seen it.

I'm Poltergeist, which, again, has come up a couple times. And Poltergeist is what I feel very safe talking about here in the first two episodes, because Carolyn, who's the sort of like, even if you've never seen Poltergeist, you've seen the blonde girl and Poltergeist. They're here, right? Like, that's an iconic moment and image. Carolyn, quote, since the presence of poltergeist in the first movie and is kidnapped by them, with the help of her family, they're able to get her back from the Netherworld.

So that seems very Holly Wheeler coded to me. And then also, this is just something to keep in mind for the future. It's not anything we need to really address here. But a couple of finalities that the Duffer brothers have cited as inspirations. episodes that they looked at, not to necessarily like identically copy, but just sort of like, these are finalities we liked that we wanted to emulate the feeling that they gave us. Six Feet Under, which I actually considered maybe the best TV finale of all time. Breaking Bad and Friday Night Lights.

Fascinating. Not a bad trio. I have some theories on Six Feet Under, which I can talk about later. But yeah. Yeah. Friday Night Lights gets my mind going on a few possible. abilities as well, actually. And it's interesting.

Okay. I think, oh, so this vaguely. Friday night, the end of Friday Night Lights and 16-Under? Very strong shared DNA. Okay. Are you ready to do a crawl with me and deep dive into these episodes, Raleigh, Rubin? Let's do it.

Let's do it. All right. Chapter 1, The Crawl. We're starting with Will's No Good, Very Bad, Very Cold Open. We talked about this a little bit. These five minutes were put up online before the episodes premiered. So we already talked about them a little bit. But just in case you didn't hear us talk about those, you didn't do all the homework

podcast. And that's okay. We support you. We'll talk about it here as well. We get Will listening to The Clash and Castle Byers. We get Will turning into an unexpected sort of action hero running through the woods, leaping around trees, doing all this stuff, digitally de-aged, et cetera, et cetera. and then we get the demigorgan capturing will, dragging him to the library, and Lord Vecna shows up.

And you were struck when we talked about this. The first time, you were struck by the way that the demigorgian sort of bows and scrapes here to Lord Vecna showing deference to him, which I think is like the least animalistic thing we've seen one. Like, isn't that the most like humanoid thing we've seen a demigorgan do? I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. Right before and during the moment when Vecna just pumps will chock a block full of upside-down goop. There's just no way to say that properly. Okay.

You know, we can just think about, that's dart. It's a nice way to remember dart, you know? Sweet little dart. There's just like watching the textures of what was going up that little tube. It's tough. It's very tough. Very gross. Okay.

At long last week we can begin. and I, we are going to do such beautiful things together, William, such beautiful things. What do you want to say about this sequence? Okay. A couple quick things. I like just hearing the clash again and thinking about that, you know, we've talked a lot about the like Patronus comp of Kate Bush running up that hill and how, as you noted when we covered season four anew, how that had been here since the very beginning with Will and

the clash. It was nice to remind us of that. And I think there's something like larger there for us to consider, especially in two episodes where I think the characters are often having very active conversations about what they know and what they don't, what is a mystery and when. Actually, I have some notes on some of those exchanges, which we'll, which I think we both do and we'll go through as we as we move here. But sometimes the truth and the facts are there before we are all aware of them. So that was kind of just like an interesting thing to think about. I have a, like, do the physics and physical skill sets of the upside down work differently, like genuine canon question, which candidly I'm not sure we're supposed to be, like,

wondering about here, but I kind of can't help it when I watch Will rapidly scale a tree like that and then jump across. And like wirework jump his way across. Yeah, that said, I would not have anticipated that Jonathan Byers could move up a radio tower with a quickness like that. So maybe the Byers boys are just like very... dramatically inclined. I am still wondering if there's anything useful in that backpack that is just sitting there waiting

to be discovered. That's on my mind. But mostly. Oh, in the library. Like if they go to the library. Because the backpack got stuck on the tree. On the trees. So it's there.

Like, I don't know. It felt like there are very limited things we're seeing there. They're showing us the backpack gets stuck. Why? Maybe for absolutely no reason other than because it slowed Will's fall and then he didn't die as a result. could literally just be that.

Oh, yeah. The quote that you mentioned, at long last we can begin, you and I, we are going to do such beautiful things together. William, such beautiful things. Okay, so this is the big thing for me, because we have talked a lot over our rewatch about Will and how eager we were to see Will re-centered

and how, for a lot of different reasons, right? Our investment in Will and his journey of discovery and journey of identity, but also because the plot and the mythology of the story really oriented heavily around Will and 11 both at the beginning, and then Will kind of receded inside of his own world. This choice to open, not only in a moment in time where then were very much like, right, this is this stretch in November when Will was taken and vanished. We know from the later discovery of Nancy's Diaries when the upside down locked in time.

It does all of that, you know, it sets us up for Lucas saying like, well, this anniversary is coming up. Yeah. It's more than that, though. I think it is like a, it felt to me like a pledge on the Will front and the Will Vecna Thai front specifically, right? You can open the final season on any note and to say this relationship was not inconsequential to the story that we were eventually going to tell. Will wasn't just like the kid who vanished first, a thing that happened there. And obviously in these first two episodes that we watched this idea of Will is the antenna, a will saying to Robin, like, something changed about me from this experience. And obviously, there's, like, the trauma and all of the other things. But what else does that mean?

This feels like a signal to us at the start of the season that this will be centered in the tale of season five. And I'm excited. I'm excited about that. And I feel glad. I'm really interested in that. And I think what the Duffer brothers have said that they took a lot of things that they had thought about doing in season two and put it in this season. So you already mentioned the tunnels. There's just like a lot of season two DNA in this season already. And they've also said that this season feels like if season one in season four had a baby on steroids, but I'm really seeing like a lot of season two here, which is our favorite Will season, right? Like that not not given how traumatized he is, but like just all of that Will spy stuff was really, really good in our

rewatch experience. One more thing about sort of that night that Will Byers went missing. A extraordinarily popular theory that I saw all over social media and Reddit was this idea that the shadowy figure that we see

going after Will in season one episode one was actually Vecna and Vecna was there the whole time. And the deference said no, that was a demigorgian. That was definitely a demigorian. But they also confirmed the demigorgans are not telekinetic.

So, quote, someone or something else was there the night because the lock on the buyer's door slides open psychically. So something or someone was there, but that figure that you saw was a demigorgian. So was Vecna there to open the lock? Maybe was one of our characters, you know, in the modern timeline, time travel, like a Back to the Future three time traveling back through their own sort of like. experiences and memories inside. We've been talking about this.

We would not be surprised to see a redo of that opening with our modern day character sort of skulking around the corner somewhere. And that would be really interesting. What would be the motivation for like, let's say an 11 who does have these powers to open the lock on that door? I don't know.

Maybe she has to, you know, so that it can all happen in the first place. I have no idea, but like, you know, something to think about. Something to think about. All right. What sort of paradoxes will we explore? Can I, let me hit you with a little gate generation question slash thought here that I'm going to freely offer up. I don't know if this makes any sense at all.

I don't know. I have no idea of this makes any sense at all, but it was on my mind watching these first two episodes. And it's on my mind with you floating this idea that perhaps the telekinesis is. from season one, episode one, points toward someone else being there. Okay. Am I missing something here? Entirely fucking possible. Is it also possible that the gate generation mythology

has just, candidly, never been the most tightly buttoned up aspect of the lore? A little wibbly wobbly, we would say. Yeah, could just be that. All right. Let me know if I'm missing something here. And then let me see if I can bring this back and tie it into the possibility of, of other parties being involved. The demo is back.

Our old friend the Demogorgon is back and generating gates with ease, right? Okay. Obviously that happens in season one. The Demogorgon is generating gates in season one. That's how Will is, that's how the demigorgon is moving in and out of the buyer's home, et cetera.

Okay. I was thinking back watching these first two episodes and seeing the Demogorgon pop up, out of Holly's ceiling, just cut off Karen and Holly just flexing. Like, fuck it, I don't need to walk down the stairs. I'll just make another gate. I was thinking back to the exchange between Vecna and 11 in season four. So I sought a means to open my own doors.

I sought your power. It's like show canon that the ability to open gates is 11's power. And that Vecna wanted the ability to do this and the four kills. the season four kills, the gates that caused the earthquake, the ruptures across Hawkins that are now covered by a mental bandaid, etc. So if Vecna needed to seek Eleven's power to do this, what's the exact sequencing with how the Demogorgan is able to do that in season one? And is it possible? Because we've talked a lot across our theorizing and our rewatch pods about the particles and the mind flare and the hive mind. And will that be how we seek to defeat the foe taking over?

Like obviously a huge part of these first two episodes is Will's new Demogorgon, Vecna, Holly Vision cam. And there are just conversations in these two episodes about seeing through Vecna's eyes as part of the hive mind, reminding us that Vecna is a part of the hive mine. Is the Demagorgian able to open these gates because of 11 in the first place? Is I guess my question? Yeah, I would say not, but maybe. But I would say, to me, it's more likely that it's like an inherent power of the demigorgon that like 11 was able to tap into. But there are things that the demigorgans can do, the things that creatures of the upside down can do, that humans like Vecna 11 will can only sort of like learn, grow, come into. Do you know what I mean?

Like, because they're already hive mind connected. And so Will sort of like grows into that power seemingly this season. Or is that something that Vecna has given him? I don't know. But like, that would be my inclination. But I'm open to it. And I could be completely wrong about this. But my sense that like a reason the Demogorgon was so easily able to get into the Wheeler household

was because Henry had established a connection with Holly. previously. Do you know what I mean? That that sort of like loosens the screws on the, you know, the cracks, the dam, the dam, as, you know, we talked about earlier. The Demogorgon doing that now post the thinning of the veil with everything that happens in the before it makes complete sense to me. It made me think, like, wait, how was that happening in the first place then? Yeah, I know. He was just like, and so is there any sort of move on the time front and power front that might help explain that. That would be fun. That's my question. That would be fun.

I'm not taking any bets on the Duffers spending time explaining the powers of the Degregorgan. Completely fair. Completely fair. And frankly, maybe better not to at this point. All theories welcome in the multiverse. Okay. No bacon for Ted Wheeler, as you mentioned. Day one, November 3rd, 1987.

This is our first glimpse of Holly glimpsing Mr. Wetsudson, aka Henry. Yep. We did not get this reveal until episode two. Mm-hmm. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how sure were you that this was Henry once again fucking with children messing around? What's the highest number? 100? I mean, it was never going to be anyone but Vecca.

And I actually think this first glimpse, because, you know, later at the playground when we see just like the hands, the sleeve. I thought this first glimpse, this silhouette, which became much more human-like as it neared the window, that very first glimpse just looked like Vecta. Jamie Campbellbauer. moving in shadow, yeah, like Jamie in the full prosthetic. So this felt like the only place we were heading. And I think honestly, like in a way that maybe isn't the best where it feels, even though it's not confirmed yet, very obvious to the audience and we're waiting for our characters to like catch up.

I don't know if that was the most effective choice. I think I don't know if they, I don't know if they knew we would be that far ahead of it. Yeah, that's fair. But you and I at least were very far ahead of it. So I will say that later, when there's this big H-E-N-R-Y reveal, I'm just sort of like, faster, Karen, faster, faster everyone. We're already there, as opposed to the Henry 1-Vecna reveal and the way that that was sort of like so stunning in season four.

That's true. Listen, at least we still got to hear Mike Wheeler say he thought to his sister, but ultimately two Joyce Myers behind the bathroom door that he was going to take a whiz on the floor right here if he didn't get into the bathroom. At least that happened in this stretch. On the sleeping arrangement front, how often do you think Jonathan actually sleeps in the basement

and how often is he sneaking up to Nancy's room? Whether any adults would notice or not. I think the general vibe, not just the Steve and Jonathan dick measuring, but what Steve says about how unhappy they both are in the relationship. obviously Steve has his own perspective, but it doesn't necessarily seem like Jonathan and Nancy, who basically along with everybody else,

are forced to remain residents of Hawkins and have just thusly put all of their other season four issues on hold because they can't go to college and then elsewhere and haven't had to confront any of this. I don't get the sense that their relationship is necessarily at its peak of really any aspect of what would be transpiring between them. So I don't know that there are. They're sneaking into each other's arms every night.

I will say, even if they don't, and, like, Joyce already knew that they were doing that at her house. So, like, she would not be surprised. But even if they're not doing that, they are working, they're all working together at the radio station. So they could always just, like, grab a quickie at the radio station if they want one. You know, that's a fact. Okay. Also, given how long they may or may not have been there at the Wheeler household, I actually think it's extremely rude of Joyce. Not that like the wives are the only ones who could do this, but I think it's extremely rude of Joyce and awe for her to help clean up when she's rushing off to basically watch Hopper Time Elle.

Like she's like, I got to go. And she's being mysterious because what she's doing is secret. What she's doing is not time sensitive. She's there for moral support. She has a role to play. But she could also help Karen who's cooking for a household of. For many, you know? I just thought that was not my favorite Joyce move. Maybe the need for that sort of social decorum and the reciprocity of you have given me shelter.

I will give you assistance with the dishes ceases to be a thing on like month 20. You know, maybe Joyce was really motivated by that in the early days. You've given me room and board. I will make sure that I help with the household chores. And now she's like, you're just going to keep apparently letting me stay here. I no longer feel obligated to assist. If I were Karen, I'd start drinking wine much earlier than she does inside of the substance. Okay.

But it's nice to have that lightness, the Ted Wheeler of it all, the like get out of my house sort of stuff. Also on the levity front, we get Robin and Steve at the radio station. And I understand what the deafers are saying about we're off to the races really quickly, but I genuinely could have, I could have had four episodes of Robin and Steve and Nancy and Jonathan try to run a radio station. That's very, very charming. Nancy is station manager, as she is revealed to be later. It's just like another great wrinkle to this. This is really excellent. Made me think back to singing like Rock and Robin at recitals in elementary school.

Made me wonder what Keith is up to now that his family video crew has moved on. But the thing it really made me think of most was this will not be the last time that Harry Potter comps come up today. Real Potter watch. Distributing key details. about what the party in this case, the Order of the Phoenix in that case, needs to know about something that is happening in that moment or has been happening recently, using a radio broadcast to do that. It's very Lee Jordan, it's very Fred Weasley, it's very Lupin, Kingsley, etc.

For me, it was pinging Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam, which if you've never seen, is just like a real Coke, it's a hell of a drug kind of movie. But basically, it's based on this real life story of a, of a, of a, DJ during the Vietnam War, who insisted on not only playing rock and roll, but also reading out sort of censored material about what was really going on with the troops in Vietnam against orders and all that sort of stuff. So that sort of, like, rebellious, like, I'm going to be snarky about the military, even though I'm employed by the military, is like real Robin energy here of, you know, she's like, what? I was just giving out their, you know, their messaging. And Steve's like, yeah, a little fucking sarcastically, though. That movie, by the way, came out in 1987.

Steve on the soundboard. It's just sensational stuff. You know, we can really think back to his days on the basketball court, on the basketball team. You know, the ball distribution instincts and skills, the quick hands, the quick feet. great stuff. Comedic timing that we would expect from Steve the Hare Harrington. You know, not afraid to mix it up,

to push, knows how to engage with his pal and friend, the DJ, Rock and Robin, but also to keep an audience hooked, thought he had a real knack for it and a real skill and given Steve struggles over the years with his career ambitions. It was nice to see him settled in so wonderfully to this line of work.

I did ping the mention of Jimmy Fast Hands Lee, the prior DJ who fled amid the earthquake. As of all the lines we get, like, the episode titles have been released for the entire season. And episode five is called Shock Jock. So I'm like, is Jimmy Fast Hands Lee coming back into the mix in some capacity? What might that went to have been for? That would be really fun.

the Duffers did put up like a radio broadcast Jimmy Fast Hansley thing on their Instagram. So like, you know, they're like, notice this for sure. This is their 500th show. It's only been 600 days. So I'm like pretty impressive, impressed with the output here. Once again, thinking about the writer's room and they're like, we've got a metric shit ton of exposition we have to give of like what's been happening the last 20 months. We'll get Maya Hawk and Joe Kiri in the radio. booth with the rubber chicken and the cough sound effects and all the in a slide whistle and uh that's how

we will get all this messaging across i do think there's just like a lot of information download sequences in this first episode which again i really liked this episode but it's just like kind of one after the other because we've got like nancy and mike uh you know the wheeler uh double act etc giving out the details of the crawl so it's a lot yeah um i think they pulled it off pretty well but it's still, you feel it a bit, I think, in the first half of this episode. No question. I thought that the teams prepping for the crawl stretch was a clunkier version of this. Yes.

Because on the one hand, I think the cover for it and that stretch is the crawls require such a level of precision in order to execute safely and properly that you can maybe talk yourself into them going over, like, details and aspects of how this works that they would not need to be doing. 37 crawls in. Here, you know, who tunes into the radio broadcast every day? Maybe Robin would say things that, like, 500 broadcasts in, and theory she doesn't need to say. But I think it's honestly just that Maya Hawk is such a compelling comedic force. Oh, yeah. That hearing her, I'm, like, more interested in, I'm more focused on thinking about how many versions of springtime snowflakes and mysterious dandruff has she workshoped, 500 broadcast in how many different ways that she found to describe these particles that they have

surely, unsafely, all been inhaling and exposed to. And that's like an effective way to distract me from thinking about, boy, we're really working through all the exposition. So here it worked for me a little bit more effectively than in the other examples. Also, Big Mac, just an absolutely elite nickname for the military access control zone. I also really like this idea. I love the Vicky moment that we get in the car, the dedication to Vicky. And then just thinking about, you know, just thinking about Holly being excited to listen while they're biking to school. Everyone's tuned into it in their car.

Just like the local DJ as celebrity, you know, later Will is like, hey, rock and rob, you know, like, you know, he's like, he, he, he, I don't, she's a local celebrity. Like, right? He idolizes her. So, like, I think that that's just like a very bygone. I mean, people listen to podcasts or whatever in the morning, but this idea of like your local morning show radio DJ, shout out, you know, I don't know,

Sarah and Vidi on Alice in the Bay Area, but like, it's just, it's good stuff. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin. or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Okay. Trouble in paradise. This is tough for us. We, Dustin and Steve lovers, Dustin and Steve are at each other's throats.

Yeah. Not in the cute way they've been in the past. We get a repeat of like the Steve and Eddie comments about Dustin's tone, but it's just a, it's not as funny and cute as it was in season four. It's very real, a bit more of a bite to it. Yeah. This is something that the Duffer's talked about in the great Empire magazine coverage of season five.

I would say the two big magazine pieces on Stranger Things Season 5 that I would recommend people read are the Empire Magazine cover story and the Time magazine cover story. Those are both really excellent. There's also a great piece in variety. So those are the texts that gave us the most information. The Duffer said,

Dustin is struggling because of what happened to Eddie, racked by grief, he's torn between the mission and this desire to be defiant and stand up for what Eddie believed in, leading to challenges in his relationship with Steve in particular. And Joquiri has talked about in interviews how much he views it as Steve absorbing all this pressure on him. So we understand what Dustin's going through. And we'll talk about that, obviously, as we get into high school hallway, fights, et cetera.

But Steve's ability to hold space for Dustin going through that is less than it has been in years past because Steve is feeling a ton of pressure on himself for. because, oh, I don't know, the earth cracked open, and they're very concerned about the end of the world. And so Steve is just feeling a lot of pressure. So these two characters who were just very, like, responsible for the lightness of previous seasons, Robin's still doing her bit. But Dustin and Steve are not up to the challenge,

and it is a real tough thing for us to watch. How do you feel about this? Yeah, I thought it was like, here, you know, that I can't always be there to solve your problems for you from Dustin. And then Steve calling back to that, it's the tone, you know, season four moment with Eddie, like you said, in a different fashion here. I thought it was actually kind of like an effective way to root us and orient us in their respective headspaces.

When we get to their fight in the van later, I was shook and just like, I found that really harrowing and upsetting. And I will talk about that more when we get there. Here, the other thing that was on my mind was like, I would say there are a number of dust and death harbingers in these two episodes. And I can't always be there to solve your problems is the first one, but not the last one that I will note as we go today. And I was getting really, really, really worried listening to lines like that. I mean, I think they're definitely playing with us with some of these.

Like, you know, the mic and 11, like what's going to happen when it's over conversation or the Joyce and Hop like good. by, which felt so final in its own way, you know what I mean? I think they're definitely like, they know. They know how nervous we are. Terrified. That they're going to kill our favorite characters. Don't take Dustin, please. I would appreciate it.

Okay, so as we mentioned, we covered the trailers a bit previously, Dustin has grown his hair out in homage to Eddie. He's got some rings on his fingers. And of course, much to Andy's dismay, the Hellfire Club shirt is here. And I just think as much as the Dustin and Steve stuff kind of devastates me, there's something about this interaction with Andy in the hallway that is very familiar to me in terms of like kids I knew who were like smart and nerdy and bullied and watching them grow up into like extremely sarcastic people. So these were like the people that I was friends with in high school and middle school and high school and stuff like that. And so, like, to watch Dustin in his trench coat, like, you know, say, you told me stop screwing your mom and that didn't stop me, did it?

Like, that just felt so real and familiar to me. And just thinking about, I actually think they've kind of slow rolled this out pretty well. This isn't like an alarming you to, you turn for Dustin because, and we remarked on this, mainly directed at Ted Wheeler, sarcastic Dustin is something that's been growing for the past couple seasons. It's just become more of his personality as he is, both growing up and dealing with his Eddie-related trauma, which as much as the Steve stuff hurts me, I like Dustin in the hallway here with Andy. I think it works really well. Yeah, me too. I, you know, when we build toward the really, like, violent and intense fight in the cemetery at Eddie's grave.

And then some of what Steve will say to Dustin about like poking the bear. I was thinking it gave me like there's a little bit of a hardcore and peacemaker like seeking out the pain aspect of how Dustin is coping with his grief and what he's going through here. I think seeing him in that Hellfire shirt because of the passage of time. Like it makes you think this isn't the, obviously it's text in the conversation with Andy. And he's like, I told you to stop wearing that. Does Dustin wear the shirt every day?

is he wear it once a week? Like, you know, this is his wardrobe, right? He is cloaking himself, not only in this reminder of Eddie, but in a declaration that he is not going to let people forget about Eddie and about Hellfire and what that meant for him. You know, we loved talking about that relationship in season four and about that moment where Dustin's like,

the only person who was nice to us was Eddie, right? And how much that meant to him as like a life raft and a lifeline in this really scary, familiar world of high school. And I just like is beautiful to see him so committed to carrying that on. And then of course, you know, in Eddie's death sequence, that like final, I'm going to look after, right? Like Eddie pips saying to Dustin calling upon him to continue this tradition of providing that safe harbor and that refuge that Hellfire offered to them. Of course he's still doing this. Of course he's going to Eddie's tombstone and wiping off their graffiti.

I understand, of course, why Dustin is this upset. I'm not sure I can fully understand why Mike, especially Mike, but why Mike and Will and Lucas are like, what's going on with Dustin? Like, that's just like, you know, Eddie was extremely important to Mike as well. Lucas was in Hellfire Club, even though it conflicted with basketball. Will admittedly just missed the entire Eddie phenomenon, so I understand that. But like, you know, I think it's interesting. Let's talk about this, right? So, Lucas rolls up.

Incredible. Love to see this Lucas entrance. Reminding us that we've met Andy before when Erica kicked him in the balls last season and the playground outside the Creel house, right? Yeah. And then also Mike and Will show up and they're all so tall. And just like thinking about these little boys and how they responded to bullies in season one versus. this moment, this uniting of the party coming together, right?

They tell Dustin to settle down, follow the rules, blend in. That's not what we've ever done, Dustin says. We stand up for what's right no matter the cost. And it reminded me a lot of Dustin in season one. We talked about these various interactions when Lucas and Mike are fighting, and Dustin's the one who's trying to get them back together. And he has his a couple different scenes, but in one of them he says, no, no, no, not fine.

Guys, seriously, do you even remember what happened on the Bloodstone Pass? We couldn't agree on what path to take, so we split up the party, and those trolls took us out one by one, and it all went to shit. And we were all disabled. So we stick together no matter what. So this idea of, you know, which Lucas will echo again when he's talking about Max in the hospital, right? We need the entire party. But this idea of like, we need to be united on this. And we are not the people who just keep their heads down and don't say anything and don't do anything.

And I think Dustin is right inside of this moment, even though I do agree with you that there is this aspect of he's looking to get punched a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm with you completely. I side with very powerfully with Dustin in this exchange. I had the same reaction you did to feeling like not only a little perplexed but a little bit dismayed by Will and Mike and Lou. Lucas, like, you know, they're talking about Dustin behind his back. Like, they're covered up when he sits down and he's like, yeah, guys, I know you were

just talking shit about me. Like, you can pretend you were up, but I know you were. Right. And I think that the explanation that they offer up and the kind of pitch that they make to pull him back in, like, we don't have the luxury of split attention is not without its, like, logical defense, but there is an emotional currency there that is absent that is kind of the currency and like blood life of the show and certainly to your point of the party. And, you know, I had the same kind of little, a lot of the experience we're talking about time travel

lot. There's a lot of time travel like nostalgia as we just watch these episodes. And I had the same, I'm ported back just like you were to the bullying at the beginning of the show. And, you know, also like we had our experience with Jane being bullied in season four and Mike's appeal to her of, why, why don't you feel like you could talk to me? about this, you know I've been through this in like many moments that kind of take us back to the beginning. But yeah, just seeing how like, when they all emerged and they're standing and they're like taller than they're so tall. And you just feel how it's like you don't stop getting bullied because you're tall, but like it just made you think of how much time had passed, right? And

the group always stood up to the bullies. Like they stood up to Troy and the mouth breathers. But also then Elle would come in with her past. And it's all connected into this idea of like the embrace and welcome of new members into the party, but also this idea that they can't just rely on like the magical beings for everything. You have to be able to like do what you need to do on your own. I think that it's like interesting. I suspect that we will talk about the presence and very central presence and positioning of, I know we'll talk about it a little bit more today, but I suspect we'll talk about the wrinkle in time of it all more next episode and, you know, presumably beyond.

This is not really about any of the like Mr. What's It in Stranger Things, Mrs. What's It in A Wrinkle in Time or any of the other aspects of it on the kind of like plot comp front. Just seeing how central it was in these two episodes with Holly and her book and Mr. What's It slash Mrs. What's It, picked up my old copy, have like my box set picked up. I mean, when the episode titles came out, anyone who listens to our pod will remember.

We didn't even clock the like reference of one of the episode titles. It's been a minute since I have like revisited this text, right? have the box up, but then I have another copy of just the first book that my stepmom gave me like a long time ago. I picked it up, yellowed pages, and I'm opening it. And I decided to read, which I don't think I had done back when I was younger and was like not necessarily reading intros to books. Yeah. So there's an intro from Anna Quindlin in the book. And like paragraph one, I was just like, right.

You know, the, so I'll read you a couple very quick quotes from this intro. The most memorable books from our childhoods are those that make us feel less alone. Convince us that our own foibles and quirks are both as individual as a fingerprint and as universal as an open hand. That's like the intro to why she loves this book and what it means her and so many people. You build toward the site line about like how the book is about, quote, the tyranny of conformity. And I'm like, right. Eddie, dusty, hellfire, challenging that. That's what the party is, right?

And another passage that really struck me, on its surface, this is a book about three children who fight an evil force threatening their planet. But it is really about a more primal battle all human beings face to respect, defend, and love themselves. And like, that's what stranger thinks is about. So what a perfect choice to pick, for a lot of different reasons, as we'll talk about more. But what a perfect choice to pick a wrinkle in time where you have Meg and Charles Wallace and Calvin and like these people who don't feel like, they fit in or belong or accept it even necessarily, like, in their school group or maybe with other members of their family. How do they compare to the twins, et cetera, right? And this is, like,

what that book means to Holly or to anybody who read it. It's like, that's what Stranger Things is for this generation of people watching it or what it can be. And so the party and the sanctity of that pledge from dust, that reminder from Dustin, like, we have to believe in ourselves and help each other do that is what the story is about. So I don't know how anyone could watch that and not be Team Dustin. It's like the spirit of the show. I just think it's so interesting to have so many characters who we usually agree with tell him he's wrong. I know. Like all around him telling him he's wrong, which is so interesting to me. I love that you did that. I of course also picked up my copy of A Wrinkle in Time and I was really struck. I was struck so much more by, and obviously this is

connected so clearly to the plot, but like that idea of this of the tethers to your loved ones, no matter how far away they are, no matter what planet or dimension or whatever they might be in. And that idea of like looking after everyone has told you it is hopeless, you know, told you to give up. So thinking about, yes. And this has happened again and again in this show. But like thinking most keenly about Joyce in season one and everyone basically calling her crazy. And thinking about her hunched over a bunch of Christmas tree lights that are sort of glowing in response to her. queries and stuff like that. So that, you know, that is such, and like also in Holly's room,

there's a movie poster for American Tale, which is a movie I watched one million times growing up, which is also about long separation and this idea of like somewhere out there, like someone is beneath the pale moonlight, like, like that the ties that bind that don't sever, no matter how far away you are, no matter the circumstances. And that just loops back to what Dustin is talking about here, which is like party unity. The ties to Eddie. Eddie is dead. The Duffers have said he is not coming back.

Joe Quinn is busy. Eddie is not coming back. But Dustin's holding on to Eddie and what he means, you know? So it doesn't matter if someone's dead. They're still there and they still matter. So I love that. Beautiful. I feel that way about Jake the Snake too.

Okay. That's my big note for. He did not have to bring Jake the snake into it, but he did. And look what happened. Jake was just basking under a warm light bulb in a classroom. Safe. I mean, did your time with Dart teach you nothing? I don't know. Exactly. Have more respect for the sanctity of the terrarium. Okay. 11 is training. Boy. The junkyard is a location we saw first in season one, but it is really a season two location to me. So being in the junkyard feels like very season two. Rodding exploding pumpkins feels very season two to me. You know, like it's just very.

Pumpkins for sure. Yeah. Eleven's training. This is this is a quote from the Empire Magazine piece about Eleven's enhanced skill set, right? Ella has been training when we meet her. She's not suddenly like Neo or Superman flying through the sky, but she's definitely stronger now. she has better control over her powers and can use them in more innovative ways. The closest example I'd say is probably the force. So yeah. Eleven is out here. Big hops, big leaps over things, exploding pumpkins with her focusing.

She's done similar versions of this before. There were previous comments that we dialed in on about 11, this idea of like, I believe you can fly. You know what I mean? So, like, will we see these giant hops turn into something even more exciting over the next couple days that is the plot of this show who's to say? She's giving very much X-Men also, obviously, constantly. But, like, very, very professor, very Charles Xavier to me in some of her gestures here. What do you make of this progress in her skill set? I was mostly paying attention to the progress of how she's structuring

sentences. Oh, okay. No, I know. I mean, naturally, I'm not surprised that you're on a wig watch and beard watch corner always, though. I was, you know, I rely on you to draw my eye. I was shocked. I rely on you to draw the eye. You know, it's interesting that that quote that you just shared, like, she's not suddenly like

Neo or Superman, because as you, as you called out right away when we saw her, saw the trailers. Like the red shorts are so overtly Superman-coated. Obviously, the bandanas very like Rambo. You know, we have a lot of different pop culture versions and references. Yeah, incorporated it into the outfit. I was curious if after what you've learned in our process of podcasting together about the NFL Combine,

if you... Mere seconds. Had any thoughts, you know, on how Elle would do in the various combine drills? Like, are you, is she going to set the record in the 40-yard dash? How do you think she's doing in the three-cone? You know, what do you think? Is she ready?

Should she not run drills with a combine because she's still training? Should she wait and hold a pro day? What do you think? Well, great questions. Thanks so much for asking. I think she's definitely nimble enough for what I imagine the three-cone probably is, which is zicking and zagging around three cones. I think she's ready.

She's ready. Hop doesn't think she's ready, but I think she's ready. Joyce knows she's ready. Hop was just full on gaslighting on the once in the walls of Miami Vice. Yeah. Man, tough stuff for Hop.

Fun fact, guys, folks, kids at home. For part of filming this movie, this show, David Harbor was also doing some Thunder Bulls work. So to avoid a sort of horrible CGI Superman erasing a mustache on Henry Cavill situation. They decided to give Hopper a great big bushy beard this season. Fine. I'm down with it.

For some reason, he did not have it yet when they shot this scene or he had shaved it. Shaved it. Because this is a fake beard and it is not. Having just watched Death by Lightning on Netflix, which has an incredible fake beard budget, some of the beers are real, but Michael Shannon says fake. There are a lot of fake beers in that show, and they're excellent. I know this technology is available to a Netflix show. I'm just saying they skipped on David Harbour's fake beard in this sequence, and it shows, you know?

I'm just saying. I did not notice, but I'm glad that you did. Go back and look. It's all there. The truth is there. All right. Two Neanderthals Climate Tower. Steve and Jonathan

raced the top of the WSQK Tower in order to impress Nancy Once again, speaking of fakery some pretty overt green screen action here What was up with that? I don't know It was weirdly bad

given how incredible the visual effects usually are on stranger things. It was bizarre. I agree. But I loved this sequence. What did you think of it? I mean it's just like the best, you know, putting these four together. I think that the dick measuring between Steve and Jonathan is very entertaining.

I think that the glances passing between Nancy and Robin are even better and even more entertaining. Obviously, Robin's commentary, what is it about your presence that brings out there underneath? Andry, all is just exceptional stuff. I do think that Jonathan's... He's, you know, they tie, like, it's presented as like, it's presented as like they're, they tied. They got to the top at the same time. But Jonathan had a head started.

So really, Steve is the faster climber. I think we just let the record state Steve is the faster climber. Steve has a few inches of height on Jonathan. I just, I just want to say height, I said on Jonathan. Oh, Steve. And I will say, in terms of fiction. mixing it. Connecting the cables versus give it the old Fonzorelli

like jostle. You need both, but I'm just saying I'm saying Jonathan's skill set is a little bit higher caliber there in that instance. Anyone can slap a box. You know what I mean? Anyone can slap a box is also very core to the text of what's happening with this group

of people. No questions. I also really liked when they were identifying this apparatus that they needed to seek out. And Steve was basically wrapped around Nancy to look at the binder as your boyfriend John Fires is two inches away. A great moment. I apologize for almost anything Steve does, but that was egregious.

Later when he's like, should we get some flowers for Nance? You know, that whole exchange, which we can talk about later. But I'm like, Steve, be for real. Be a fucking for real. You were hanging on top of her as she was looking at that binder. Anyway. Great stuff. Speaking of teens wanting to have sex with each other, Murray's here.

Austin Milbarge ID-5-28-9er. You and I both zeroed it on the fact that peanut butter is still a hot commodity in the contraband trade here. I literally never heard of Poppers. I had to Google this. Yes. Had to Google Peanut Butter Boppers. I found a whole General Mills article on Peanut Butter Boppers. Yeah, okay.

I don't need to go into it. Anyway. Steve was thrilled to see them. Overjoyed. Does this strike you as the appropriate way to carry on Yuri, the peanut butter smuggler's legacy, like this one and only way? Keep the peanut butter smuggling in the mix? That's it.

We don't need anything else. We don't need the return of Katinka, the helicopter. Here's my suspicion. Though the Duffers are younger than me, so I don't even know. Maybe Boppers is like slightly regional. I don't know. But like usually when it's something like, it's 1987. If it's a snack, like I feel like I should have like known about the

commercial or something. You know what I mean? Like a dunker root. Like there's like late 80s specific, you know, Teddy Grams. Like there are things that I would be like, yes, I recognize. Flintstones pushup Papa, like whatever it is, you know. But I was just like, yeah, they're the best. But I was like, peanut butter boppers. I have no fucking clue. Anyway, Hoppas and Dragons isucom if you would like to share. If you're offended by this anti-bopper position. But here's what Murray is smuggling in addition to peanut butter. telemetry tags, bullets and shells, grenades, Gatorade. I have a question, did Gatorade pay for this product placement as like the recharging of 11's battery?

Yeah. Those old school glass bottles. It did look refreshing. It did. Classic yellow. And then the cassette for Jonathan. Anything you want to say about the use of Murray in this episode here. I think that the deployment of Murray Baumann continues to be one of the great strokes of genius across seasons of stranger things.

To me, it has honestly never missed, even though he was incorporated in a season four plotline that we did not particularly love. He was the highlight of it. And so especially here at the end of all things where it is tense and it is taught and we are racing inside of what we assume is going to be a pretty confined and contained span of time, toward a climactic showdown. We need to laugh. We need to laugh. And Robin is making us laugh. Steve is sometimes making us laugh.

But Murray is there for the zingers and the bits and the deeply uncomfortable humor. And I think it is actually an essential service that he is providing in addition to arming these. They are still children in essence. These children with actual hand grenades. Grenades. Grenades. All right, so he comes up with information, most crucially, about the burn. Now we get this sequence of the crawl, right?

We get Robin on dropping the code for everyone. We get people across multiple locations writing down the code. And then it's like battle stations, right? The boys go into the woods with the Atlas. And then Nancy wheels out the overhead projector. Anything you want to say about. this sequence. Yes.

Okay. I don't know why I was served this Instagram real recently. I don't, when I say recently, this was probably like a month ago.

I was served an Instagram real about how children today, like teenagers don't know what an overhead projector is. It was one of those things where somebody on the street

is showing them a picture of, it's like, do you know what this is? They had no idea, which made me feel. It makes sense that they wouldn't because it's not in their classrooms,

but also made me feel a thousand years old. And I would like to say, thank you to stranger things. Because now everybody is going to know what an overhead projector is. Well, a couple things. Number one, I cannot wait for you to get to season four. Buffy, very crucial overhead projector moment in that season.

But also, this happens so quickly. I remember this watching Fast Times at Richmond High, which, you know, was only shot in my lifetime. But there's a moment when the kids sniff the freshly mimographed paper. And I remember being like, why the fuck did they just do that? And it was just like a thing that we didn't have mimeographs. We did photocopy. So it's just like it happened so quickly that things changed. Microfiche also.

That's right. You know, Stranger Things doing a lot to keep that tech alive. So thank you so much. We get this download. We already mentioned sort of like Mike in this leadership role. We get some vision. aids from both of them with like the mini figs and the overhead projector

grid and all of that sort of stuff like that. At the end of this download which my rule of thumb is always if we see the dress rehearsal the actual performance is going to go poorly so like of course everything is going to go to you need to know how it's supposed to go before it goes to shit right? Yeah.

What do you make of Steve? I mean I look at Robin and Steve and Jonathan were all a little like after Nancy was done with a presentation But what do you make of Steve as the voice of, hey, man, are we sure Beckna is still alive? This is more information download. He's like, this is what Eleven's been doing. This is what Will has been doing.

And that's where we get the introduction of the phrase Gooseys that Jonathan is deeply against. And I am with Jonathan on that. I loved it. But what do you make of Steve as the voice of that? That's a good question. I think just like it feels right to me that certain. members of the group, this many crawls in. We hear, you know, it's in the 30s, we hear later from Hop 37. It's a lot of time period that has passed, and it's a lot of nights like this, right?

Days of prepping for an excursion like this with this level of care, this level of, like, they need to synchronize. Nothing can go. They're literally going to be tracking a signal with it, right? I feel like the impulse for certain characters to say, maybe he's gone and we don't have to do this anymore because wouldn't that be nice feels really right to me your question about like how am i reacting to that being steve i don't know that's that is an interesting question i guess if it makes sense to me because he's always been there as the babysitter doing a ton but also like the one who's maybe most likely to say do i have to why are you sighing right like do i have to be paired with this person do i have to be the babysitter again to maybe say like well wait are we sure we have to keep doing it

exactly this way. I don't know. What do you think about why it's Steve or what it means that it's Steve? Again, I'm tempted for it to be less of a character thing and more like it's funnier to hear Joe Curie say goosies than it is for something else to happen. I also like hearing Dustin say,

what are the chances of Vecna shopping for Lucky Charms, which I thought was both a funny line and, frankly, a reasonable question. I mean, what kind of serial does Vecna like? Is there a serial out there that looks like spiders? We know how Young Henry Creel feels about spires? Easily shredded wheat. The filament-like. Yeah, easily shredded wheat.

10 jails of the gate, very shredded weed-esque. I think you're onto something there. The big ones. Okay, so not like a frosted mini wheat. No, not a frosted meat. Just like a full block. I want some shredded wheat now. That sounds good.

I want some frosted minieweets. Sounds right. Sounds exactly right for us. Okay, so. Oh, another dust and death harbager in this stretch. I thought. I want to see Vecta's heart on a platter. I just wish I could do it myself.

Gave me a pang of anxiety that I can barely describe. Like it makes me worried that Dustin is going to in a key crucial moment, tried to do something unwise in order to deliver justice for Eddie. For me, it was like, it was more dialed into like this sort of like violence from Dustin that we've never seen, right? Like we will see him fight later in the cemetery, but just this idea of like, I wish I could do it myself. Definitely. Think about our like cuddly teddy bear, Dustin, saying, I wish I could murder this monster and put his heart on a platter.

Yeah. Myself, that's so disturbing. Will gets the gooseys, the spins. We know that he's in the Holly POV. He does not figure it out. Once again, to your point earlier, that puts us well ahead of our characters in a way that, like, feels a little, doesn't, in season two starts, in episode two starts to drag a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Just a touch in art. Yeah. Speaking of Holly. Yes. We get the introduction of Derek Turnbow, an important character this season, as we've seen him in a bunch of trailers, and Holly the Heroic.

We already talked about a wrinkle in time and sort of like some of the things that you and I are excited about as it comes to that text, and this brings us to the moment. I'm going to pull this up here. It happens a little later in the episode, but like let's do all this like Holly, the heroic stuff together and say,

Mike and Holly have this lovely, absolutely beautiful chat. Yeah. Again, we'll talk about how much we think this idea of her being able to cast a dimension door is probably something we will see this season, etc., etc. But Mike saying he gets scared too, similar to, like, Lucas telling Will, he gets nervous before a crawl. That always works on me. This, like, I get scared to stuff really works for me. Yeah. Him deploying the word mouth breather, classic season one, Mike at 11 callback to the mouth breather, breather conversation.

As you track 11's vocabulary, one of the words she picked up and used quite frequently. She loves that one. But what do you make of him telling Holly that monsters aren't real, especially after everything not only that he's seen, but she's seen? And I like that she hits him right back with that, I don't believe you. But later in episode two, Nancy and Mike will sort of blame themselves for not maybe doing more to prepare their family for this. Maybe we could have tried to tell them what was actually going on, et cetera, and they decided not to. But what do you make of Mike saying monsters aren't real? So this is my one note for Mike in this scene.

And what is otherwise, I think, as we've discussed, just a really lovely, not just as a brother, but it's like a friend as a person in the world. during a hard time, a lovely moment for him and scene for him. I think that it still feels different to me from some of the other instances, actually, and then, like, Nancy's seen when Nancy is very much, like, it doesn't make sense. Mostly my notes on this front or for, and we'll hit these scenes, Joyce and Hopper,

who both do, like, a pretty active, like, it doesn't make sense, and I'm sort of, like, all of these characters have seen enough of... So much. The inexplicable, the seemingly inexplicable and the supernatural, too, I think just... I tend to not...

I try to not generalize or paint with too broad and brush. I would say that these characters should literally never say. Something's impossible or, well, it doesn't make sense or, well, what would the explanation be? Because they've been surrounded by proof. I'm inclined to give like a light pass on my kid's sister has an imaginary friend since that is so normal. It just takes. Mike's revelation about in episode two feels a little like delayed. Yeah.

But, you know, that at the very least is he's not like, what do you mean, Holly? There aren't tentacles that come up from out of the ground. He's like, oh, your imaginary friend that so many children have, like, and he's, like, engaging with her with the existence of that imaginary friend, which I think is very sweet. But, yeah. Yeah, he's, that's why he's, like, getting the fewest notes for me on that front because he's not, he's not actually denying something to himself. He's like, I think trying to make her feel, as he talks about here with Mike the Brave and Holly

the heroic, less afraid. He's like, I would say he's doing a touch less of the Throne-Zan. We'll hit some other Throne-Zan stuff, certainly. I mean, we're a fuck. We're about to get a Whitewocker spiral and a, we're about to get the wall. A mandala? Yeah. A mandala?

That wide shot of the wall could not have been more. It's just Throne-Z to me. Except it's made of, well, we'll talk about what it's made of. Meat. It's not made a match price, but it's keeping something in her out. So, meat, yeah. Meat. You know, so I think Mike is doing like a little bit less of the,

Can a man still be brave if he's afraid that is the only time? He can be brave and a little bit more like litany against fear. Fears the mind killer with Holly here and trying to like coach her through it. I still think he should have said to her, monsters are real. Here's what's going on. He took a different tact. I think it's understandable why.

Broadly, I think Mike the Brave is never scared. I get scared sometimes too. Mike the Brave is never scared. Like maybe you just need Holly the heroic. was so lovely and the way that Holly's face brightened when her brother gave her this gift. And it's not just the gift of the figurine and the gift of the promise of I was going to teach you D&D and share this passion with you. It's the gift of believing in yourself and finding your courage. And it's just incredible and lovely. I think there's a lot of theory father stuff here,

but emotionally it's just like beautiful. I think Nell Fisher is pretty great. like really really good as Holly. I found her very sweet and immediately engaging. Yeah. We do get on the Thrones front Joe like a undead Leanna

promised me Ned. Like I never want to have a promise between a brother and a sister. It just makes me, she'll keep you safe, I promise. It always, it would just triggers our terror

that something terrible is going to happen. Here's, let's go to Theory Corner. She's the cleric, which means she has divine powers. She can cast spells of protection to ward off evil spirits, even cooler. She can cast a dimension door, which can teleport you anywhere, you can visualize. I mean, come on, can this lame-o, mister what's it, do any of this? She'll keep you safe, I promise.

Seems notable. So yeah, if Holly, who we leave in some sort of dream realm at the end of episode two, if she casts a dimension door to go home, we will be. 0% surprised. I would say Vegas has taken this one off the board. We hear Mike say this. It just feels like it is absolutely going to happen. What does your read on Holly, the heroic, this figurine itself, which we see Holly put

into the necklace, and that necklace is with her? We had talked when we discussed Lucas reading the Talisman to Max in season four. You were like, are we going to literally see like an object that has a role to play in the story? Is that this? You wrote in our notes, Inception. Obviously, it's very, it pings very heavily inception in terms of like anchoring you to a sense of reality if you were in a different mental space. So did it pull you more firmly in one direction or toward a talisman or inception? Or just in anything.

What do you think the role of that will be on the theory corner front? I think, I mean, the fact that we see her stringing on a necklace and something that she can sort of like clutch and hold on to is like her emotional support thing. something to remind her who to be, I will not be surprised if we hear this mic sort of speech in a later episode or something like that. I think this is safe to say, but skip ahead if you don't want a single trailer spoiler.

I mean, we see her in the trailers in a blue Holly the heroic dress. So like this idea that she will like assume that persona inside the dream space. It's very exciting. I've only played Dungeons and Dragons once in my life. it was with all of you for Ringer Quest. So I googled Cleric Dungeons and Dragons

because I don't know anything about it. And I was also struck. This is just on the Wikipedia page. My research did not extend me on that. I have not yet had the pleasure of engaging in another campaign. Clerics also healers. Yeah.

And powers over the undead. Very true. And dimension doors. It all feels like it's in the blue. I was watching this episode as I have been doing with my pal Diana, who's played a lot of D&D, and she got so excited when she heard Dimension Door, and then later

Prismatic Spray. She just got really excited. She's like, those are real D&D things. Like, it's so exciting. I should also say Diana was so impressed with Robbins, Diana Ross Fax. And she was just like, you know, before the internet, people just do things. She's like, also, you couldn't fact check Robin in real time if she got any of those, like, numbers wrong.

But anyway. Our next scene, I'm calling Interior, colon a lab in hell, right? We meet Dr. Kay. This is what costume designer Amy Parris said to Time magazine. Quote, we've got our topside military, the military in Hawkins and classic Woodland Green.

We've got our upside down military, and we delineate that with an olive drab green, a solid color. And then there's this sort of mercenary regime. They're called the Wolfpack. And they're specific to Dr. Kay's men who are meant to be finding 11. So we get this like,

big reveal that Dr. K is doing all this slicing and dicing of goopy tentacles and other things full time in the upside down. So if you want to talk about the danger of inhaling mysterious dandruff, she's wearing a mask while she's like operating, but not all full time in the lab and everyone else in the lab is not masked up. So they are just like in living question mark in the upside down seems not safe. to me. But fascinating.

What did you make of this Linda Hamilton introduction? Dr. Kay is here. Seems like a primary foe in the final season of Stranger Things. Seems very focused. You know, we, I think, agreed that in season four, the Sullivan of it all was... Didn't really work for us. Not successful. And so I think that, obviously, Sullivan is still here.

Sullivan's men are here. But folding Sullivan, I don't know. that it will be any more successful, frankly. But obviously we have like, you know, our party versus Vecna, but we also have this other challenge of the military who is determined to continue believing that 11 is the primary threat. And so I think on that level conceptually, like battles on multiple fronts is interesting to me.

The jury is still out for me on like how interesting that military faction ends up being in the story or as characters. I do think it's really interesting to put them in the episode. I kind of gasped when they panned out and we saw where they were. I know, me too. I thought that was really a fun and cool reveal.

It's another moment at the beginning of the season that very effectively orientes us on the timeline front. You're just like, right. It has been a minute. They had to build that whole thing. Yeah. And it's also interesting in thinking about, to Steve's point, about like, well, maybe Vecna's dead.

Like, obviously in this stretch of episodes that we're covering here, we see the Demogorgon just eviscerate a convoy, right? But I think we can puzzle out that that has not been happening. Like, they built this. I mean, they have fences, they have defenses, but like, presumably if every time they took a step or did anything, there was an annihilation tempt on their entire, like, platoon, they wouldn't be able to do this. So just the fact that they have set up camp there points to, in this period of time, a level of, like, quote-unquote, relative stability inside of the upside-down where you're like, they've been biding their time? Like, Vecna has been biting his time.

Fetna was shot lit on fire and fell out of a window. Roasted like a turkey, as we heard, Joe. Did it make you hungry? Did it make you hungry? For all the trimmings? I don't know. It is Thanksgiving week. So the idea that he might need a minute to regroup and regrow some limbs.

is possible to me. What is Vecna's refractory period after getting burned alive and falling out of the Creel mansion attic window? Devastatingly, I think to you probably, speaking of refractory periods, Joyce and Hopper are having an argument here in what I have put in the notes

as an unplodable cabin, right? They've been keeping hidden in the tunnels of Hawkins and also in Hopper's cabin, which for years now has been unflaughtable. locatable in the small enclosed by a fence town of Hawkins, Indiana. This does not make sense. I'm sorry to say this just flat out.

It really does. It does not make sense, especially because we know that Sullivan has been after all of Sam Owens' team members, Dr. Owens' team members, and like they just drove right up to this cabin. They know the cabins there, yeah. During our very emotional series of reunions with our beloved. characters that the entities of force were like the fact that hop, Joyce, L, etc., know that anybody who might be chased and pursued by the people they know are trying to chase them

knows where this place is it disqualifies it as a base. They should not be there. It's truly baffling. I will say. Yeah. I did think that 11's that since defecation tank or is it looks amazing. Yeah. And I want one. Spot day? Spot day? Spat day? Sensory deprivation. That's what it is.

Okay. I thought it looked amazing. Very DIY, very rustic, very fun. Hopper and Joyce, after years, seasons, years of just fucking off and leaving their kids to their own devices, have suddenly remembered that they are overprotect-they are Season 2 over-protective parents. Speaking of season two callbacks. And they are sort of squabbling over which of their, respective, quote-unquote, children. should be protected from the front line.

Joyce is being very productive of will. Hopper as ever is being very, very protective of 11. And by as ever, I mean, just when he remembers that that's his job. So what struck me as weird about this, you know, is 11 lived with Joyce. This idea that like 11 is hoppers and not like also of Joyce is a little off to me. But what did you make of this fight between the two of them? I was wondering, like, I had a moment where I'm like, all right, why are the buyer, why is the buyers clan with the wheelers instead of staying with Hop and out?

But I guess it just would be too, it would put everybody into vulnerable of a position given that they are in fact coming and going like Will's going to school. Jonathan's going to work. Joyce is going to the NFL Combine training course, etc. So I accept that, but then it does lead to your question where it's like, oh, these people should all like be together and they can't be. In terms of the overprotective parents. Can we not be, like, bunking in the bunker of the radio station?

Like, you know, there seemed to be a lot of room down there for a bed or something. I mean, that was, like, borderline Soho loft vibes. You know, you've got exposed brick. You've got some nice, nice metal shelving. I'm like hip down there. I'm with you. It really did. Great.

I don't know how much natural light everybody needs, but I, yeah, I think that, like, how consistent is this season to season is, I think, a very worthy and fair question to raise. Inside of these two episodes, I like two things about it. One, I like that Joyce and Hopper are calling each other out on it with zero self-awareness that this is the sin that they are committing as well, right? Like, Hop's like, you keep your kid in bubble wrap, right? you know, the hypocrisy and Joyce, who is very unwilling to send Will out into the field, even when he basically begs her, is to the point where Robin has to just issue one of the great

schemes in the history of television, incredible stuff. She's talk and hop into the fact that Ella's ready, but it's unthinkable to her to put Will on the front line. That feels very human to me. Sure. That even in a unit that is really found shared family and they all love each other, that they're like anybody but they don't want to risk the other people, but like there's an extra degree of just terror when it comes to like what could happen to my kid. I think the fact that it feels like there has been some progress with Ellen Hopp on that front and then a little bit of a backslide.

You know, I think the conversation, I was actually like a little, I'm not surprised because it feels very true to Hopper's character to me. But then I was a little frustrated and I'm like, man, I really would have loved to find him in season five at a position of progress on this first, front where he's like trusting her and she is really empowered to kind of fulfill and pursue her own destiny and shape that destiny because very quickly by episode two they had a conversation with each other about it and we got to such an emotional moment of him sharing obviously about Sarah and just I mean he reaches out and grabs all his hand and cries and then the war yeah we got

both of those roots of trauma for him yeah his history as a veteran and his history of loss, losing his daughter. I'm like, yeah, this would just be a really hard thing for him to stop being terrified about. And we will say at least he's training her. You know what I mean? He's not just like stay indoors and just watch TV and eat, you know, waffles. He's like, let's do that. And I'll take you to the junkyard and we can run the call mine.

And then I'll lie to you about your time. One step forward, two step back. Okay. It's the gym hopper we know. I want to do all the, I'm going to do all the Lucas and Max stuff together, like in the second iteration we get of this. I do think it's interesting that Will is here, given, like, we've not really ever seen him have a relationship with Max. I think it's really interesting that he's here, like, talking to Max, but conveniently puts him at the hospital to witness this exchange between Robin and Vicky and by exchange, I mean, swap and spit in the hospital, and he drops his Coke can in shock and wonder and awe. Yeah. What do you think of at this moment for Will? I loved this.

First of all, just with Robin and Vicky before Will. Never make a promise and never make a date at Enzo's. Rules to live by for everyone in Hawkins and everyone anywhere, I think. Robin, I kind of like getting a glimpse of like, you know, we know how badly Robin wanted this and she has it. And everybody is in their version of a circumstance where like, what does it look like to try to live your life or stand up for what you believe in and spend your nights trying to find Vecna, right? And so this is kind of like Robin's version of superhero secret identity, right? Like, I love you, we're together. I have to cancel our date again, but I can't tell you why I liked getting a glimpse of what that would look like for Robin.

him. Robin also, I have to say, has game. Like, maybe for dessert, I could see you in this hat and like only this hat. I'm like, Robin, go. Yeah, is this the candy striper uniform isn't like already sort of coded in one way? Exactly. And then, yeah, in terms of Will, obviously he sees the kiss. I was so struck by just the camera zooming in, you know, and wearing Will's like,

point of view watching this. Robin's hand just touching Vicky's arm. Like just being able to touch and caress and embrace and hold the person you love and want.

And obviously Robin will like hear the sounds of the can and follow Will and then say to Will later like maybe don't tell anybody what you saw. And you know, obviously this feels like a promise of what we're going to get with Will and Robin.

But just looking at Will's face, that longing and then that awe to see this thing that he wants, like that two other people are sharing it. I thought which was just really moving and further heightened the anticipation that we already had based on some of the previews for season five that showed them together

of like what these characters can be for each other. When we were like enumerating just like a few things we were excited about. Yeah. I was like seeing Robin and Will together and this possibility for Will of, you know, it's one thing to have, Jonathan, your brother, say, like, I will love you no matter what. And it's another thing to

have an older person inside of your community be like, you know, who is still closeted herself with something, but is a few steps further on her journey, you know, be able to offer you something. So I am very excited for that. Yeah, me too. Me too. RAP, Jake the Snake. Anything you want, we already talked about this fight in the cemetery a bit. Anything specifically you want to say? I mean, it's very violent. and very upsetting. And I will just say, Dustin gets a shit kicked out of him.

Yeah. But does so much better than I would have done in that situation. Like really holds his own for a little while. Pretty scrappy, Dustin. The swirl move with the paint thinner? My God. I really loved seeing Dustin stand up for himself. I had a little bit of a like,

I'm a little scared to see Dustin walking down this dark of a path. you know, response to it. It's like worrying. I thought seeing him go to Eddie's grave and knowing, first of all, just seeing Eddie's tombstone to see the years, 66 to 86, it's like when he's joking about how many years it's taken him to graduate, he seems old compared to his peers, but you're like, fuck, right. He died so. But he was 20 in high school also.

But, you know, it's just crushing. And then, dude, like now at peace, that just really got me. It just made me so sad to think about losing Eddie again. but then also like his uncle Wayne, you know, and how he had to take down the defiled posters and Dustin who's going there to bring paint thinner to clean his grave. And like, what does peace mean really

when you were surrounded all the time by this judgment and this turmoil still? I was just not like really crushing. I'm so interesting because I always think about that as like for, I guess I've never had a grave site of a loved one to visit. So I might be talking completely out of my ass. but, like, I always think of that as, like, for the living. Yeah, yeah.

Not for the dead. And this idea of, like, I don't know, I think of Eddie is at peace, proud of, like, the last thing he did. Yeah. And then the people who loved him, though. Yeah, exactly. For the people who love him. Yeah. We then get this 11-and-mic scene on top of the radio station.

Hellfire dies with you, Henderson, and it dies tonight, another death onerbendure. Wow. scary worrying they're stuck enough ell and mike doing their whole thor and and jane on the roof atop sure sure yeah yeah um basically what mike says here is it has been saved but not for me paging froto baggins uh he talks about the campaign and how in his campaigns once the fighting is done the heroes can't return home because quote too much has happened so they go somewhere else somewhere far, quote, a peaceful land, somewhere beautiful with like three waterfalls or something. So he doesn't say a far green country or anything like that, but he kind of does.

He basically does. What does this do? Okay, you've already enumerated all the Dustin Death Harpagers that are concerning you. It really feels like, does it feel like too many? Does it feel like they're playing with us? I feel like they did this with Steve last season, where they were like making us so scared for Steve last season. That is my hope. And I think my belief, but, like we talked about at the end of our season four revisited pod,

the one counterweight I have is like how many basically, okay, this person's dead, but not really moments we've had with really, really, really central characters. Like, Hop's dead. No, he isn't. Max is dead. No, she isn't. She's in a coma, but like she's not dead. Ted and Karen are dead. No, they're not. Thank God. Thank God. So I don't know. Oh, are they going to feel a need to really, like, what does the body count need to be from the perspective of the people making this show? I don't know the answer to that, obviously, but it does connect to this question here about the, you know, like, who goes back to the Shire? We've been talking. Who goes to the undying lands?

Yeah. Not around at all. We've been talking for years about this. So, like, everyone leaves Hawkins, Indiana because it's just like we've seen too much here. The Radio Shack isn't too much disarray. We can't be here anymore. Or is it 11 being stuck in the upside down, which is something that you and I have been talking about for years as a possibility? You know, or is it everyone like goes to New York to try to make it on the stage or something like that?

I don't know the answer. Yeah. But I am interested about what that feels like it does for like survival, math in our heads. And also, relatedly, for Karen and Ted. you know, characters who have been with us from the start. Because like every season we get like a Barb or a Billy or a Bob or an Eddie or something like that. But these are characters who have been with us from the start. Similar to like when Papa died last season for real this time.

And there's like, you know, just to jump ahead that there's like a real moment where they try to make you think that Karen is dead dead when Nancy walks in and like her face. Right? They do this like time dilation bullshit. So what? Like, yeah. Yeah, how are you feeling? Like, does no one, are you in a no one feels safe to me space right now? I don't know if I would say I'm in a no one feels safe space, but I am in a,

and they all start again together. Mike Wheeler's quote cannot, like, and that just doesn't feel like a thing that can happen. I started Googling Three Waterfalls just to see if I could get like a place, a real place, or like if there was like a fantasy spot that famously has Three Waterfalls, or anything like that. I didn't find anything. But Hobbes and Dragons at Gmail.com, if you think that's like a specific reference. It doesn't need to be.

I just was wondering if it was. Interesting question. Yeah, I really still am in the early days of season five here. L, I do not think L is likely to be a part of like whatever that we're starting over looks like. Everything goes to shit. Yeah. First on the crawl and then at the Wheeler household. What is your number one favorite thing from the crawl,

And is it Lucas on the binoculars with the gum because snipers chew gum? I am very sensitive to loud gum chewing. And so I was, yet again, team Mike Wheeler in the stretch. But it did take me back in a way I really loved to wrist rocket Lucas. It's like, Lucas is always ready to. His hand gestures were just like really cracking me up. Very, very, very good. I also liked just in, you know, like hop infiltrating and sneaking.

in and we're like panning Main Street and you know okay the Radio Shack like you said it's in shambles but I did have a moment where I was just like it feels like because Radio Shack is here Bob is with us yeah yeah of course very meaningful especially right after thinking about Lord of the Rings and like who was sailing from the great heavens yeah oh man um crucially in terms of like skill sets right will will goosey's up and uh we get this like demo POV which is slightly different from Holly POV, but all seemingly connected to the hive. Mine is Detective Robin and Will, we'll discover later. I just want to share with you really quickly that years ago, when I went to the film, Snakes on a plane, with my friends, I think it was my friend Jeff, is my guest, but maybe my friend Christina, leaned over at one point, and I don't know if you remember the absolute masterpiece that is Snakes on a plane, but in that film, there are stretches where you are in the same.

Snake's POV. Oh, interesting. And the camera does that sort of like fuzz out sort of effect. And either Christina and Jeff, I think, leaned over to me and just went, snake vision every time it happened. And now I do that anytime this is deployed, you know, if you're like, Predator Vision or like something like that, I just like do it in that voice or someone. So like definitely demo vision was said in a.

Sing-songy hi-voice by me. When Brand was seeing through Summer's eyes, did you? Oh, yeah. Great. That's a lot of fun of us. Great stuff. So, yeah, are you in a brand space? How are you feeling about the demo vision?

You know, I'm intrigued. I thought the conversations in episode two on the kind of lore and world building front were interesting. I think in terms of like an effect, just a visual effect when we're first seeing it here. Not your hottest famous. Yeah, I didn't like love it. I thought it was a okay way of conveying to us what was happening. I thought seeing the shock around Will from everybody who is terrified to see that he is like seizing. That was effective.

Sort of like the Deweig Morgan's tall, but not that tall. You know, I don't know. I don't know. And just like seeing the little like pause, the little hands. Yeah. Yeah. It was okay. I did like when Hop went through on the burn through the gate and they said he's flipped.

I felt again like a talisman thing, like the Twitters flip. It feels like they're, I don't know. That just feels like notable. I'm excited. I don't know when we're going to get it, but we have to get another sort of like upside down flip shot. And that those are just the best. Always the best.

Everything goes to shit on the crawl and the burn, et cetera, et cetera. Everything goes to shit at the Wheeler household. Karen Wheeler is a wine drunk. Dude. And I support her. The way that Carabono in her bare feet was just, like, leaning on that kitchen island, porner, with a heavy pour. As Bill Simmons brought up on the prestige TV podcast not too long ago, the heavy poor Olympics,

Karen Wheeler is definitely a contender. I love the way that it lampshades this idea of the passage of time when she's like, to even know how old your daughter is to Ted was really, really good. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. And then we spent a little bit of. bit of time in Holly Wheeler's bedroom before she gets taken. And you and I both had a similar reaction where I was just like this aesthetic versus the like early 80s aesthetic. This aesthetic is

very familiar to me from my own life. Later when Ted Wheeler is sort of knocked through some walls and I believe into Mike's bedroom, I had those sheets on Mike's bed, which I think are the same sheets that Fred Savage has in the never-ending story. I had those sheets. And so I I think. I didn't double check, so don't hold me to do that. But Holly's Rainbow Bright bed spread, again,

the light bright still going strong, the American Tale poster, just that sort of that color palette, that late 80s color palette. Something that the costume designer said was because they're in like the QZ, they're quarantined. They're not getting the latest fashions in Hawkins.

So like you're not going to see neon and, you know, some of that, like, blending into the early 90s sort of fashions were a little bit behind in Hawkins. But still, I love that Holly is, like, representing for the late 80s kids among us. We have moved away from, like, Max looking like that famous sort of Lego ad of, like, the little girl with the Legos, like, that, like, late 70s early 80s aesthetic into this, like, late 80s stuff. Obviously, we've been tracking the perms, but I just, like, Holly's, like, Holly's, bedroom was just like, this is the 80s I remember. I had a very, very similar event spread to that. So that was, it was really fun, really fun.

Also, obviously, just very interesting to think about, you know, one of your boldest takes on the rewatch project, which was Karen should have fucked Billy, seems like Karen agrees. And I just, I think that's on her mind. I think she's thinking a lot about the path not taking. Don't you like still agree? I mean, if she doesn't make it out of, you know, she doesn't heal properly and she goes out without ever having fucked Billy. I mean...

Very tough. Sad. Okay. Anything else you want to say about this episode? I don't think so. Chapter two. Chapter two, let's do it. This episode is brought to you by Target. Listen up, Explorer. Stranger Things has returned to Target and the upside down is calling. Don't miss your chance to grab some epic exclusives

like an AirPods case shaped like a mixtape cassette. The totally tasty Doritos' Stranger Pizza and Cool Ranch Chips, and the Demogorgian Crunch Serial. New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. All right, chapter two, the vanishing of Holly Wheeler. If you're going to go out, it might as well be wine-drunken listening to Abba.

So some of your finest subhead work in a Google Doc to date. I have no counterpoint. You watched episode two before I did, and you were like, the first few minutes, for us. And our guy, Ted Wheeler, oh, man. If folks may recall,

no free ads, paid ads only, but in the Target ad that featured Ted Wheeler, he was seen purchasing some golf clubs. The golf club comes back into effect here because Ted is outside, shagging some balls,

and he hears the commotion, and he comes inside, goes outside with a golf swing. He's in a coma. He's not dead, right? He's in a coma. God. Yeah.

Among his final lines here, dad gum and holy smokes. And head heavens to Betsy. No notes for Ted, as usual. How do you feel about everything to happen for our guy, Ted, here? Okay. This is like an amazing choice that the show has made that I honestly, like, love and think is genuinely really great. I do think it's a little soon for genre television viewers to be confronted with a central, like, golf club storyline. I won't say why, but everybody who's in the know is in the no.

You think people don't know? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe some people don't know. Before I share my larger thought on using the Wheeler's this way, I did want to ask you, I felt compelled to ask you. I won't spoil the particulars. If anyone's listening to this pot, they haven't seen Wicked, we're not going to spoil Wicked here without getting into the details. I did want to ask you.

Any thoughts on Karen Wheeler putting on a nightgown to get into the bag? bath, given your recent commentary on putting on a chunky sweater before doing another activity? It's a great question. I'm glad you asked it. Thanks. Yeah, I thought it was important. Listen, she's really, it's possible she was getting ready for bed and she's like, fuck it, I want a bath. You know what I mean? Because she's like, Ted doesn't know how many bottles into the night she is. And nor do I think of her does. No, just time to break out a romance novel and think about Billy. Yeah. Exactly. Fair enough. I thought that when Holly... ran into Karen's bathroom and said, she's saying you got to believe me, but that one moment,

please trust me, mom. Shredded my heart as though I had been slashed by a demigorgian. I mean, Ted goes out kind of sad, but at least he tried. Fighting more than maybe some other times Ted seems like he's been inclined to fight. Karen goes out like a champion. Holy shit. Oh, my God. You know, shout it to Carabono.

I don't know how much she's going to be used for the rest of the season. I have no idea. But, like, she's been, like, in the main cast since season one. And sometimes they use Karen a lot and sometimes they haven't. You know. But, like, if she is not used for much of the season and this is her opportunity, I'm just, like, really glad that they gave her the Holly and Karen hide in the bath. move. Good job that she was a heavy pour on the bubble bath, right? Real heavy pour in the bubble bath.

Heavy pour on the wine, heavy pour on the bubble bath. She knows no other way. So that, I mean, the Demogrene did not seem fooled. He was about to reach into that bath. But still, it was a noble effort, a noble effort, yeah. Bought them some time. And then the move with the wine bottle in the kitchen, she had some licks it. Like, good job, Karen. I was really impressed. I was astonished by is I counted before we go into the like Nancy is seeing in real time and then we're flashing back. Stretch just in the first moment here of breaking the bottle, wielding it and stabbing the demigorgan. I counted nine wine bottle punctures to that demigorgon. Nine.

And the first one, the first one's on the like inner petals of the demo face. I know. She stuck her like hands so close to the gaping ball of the demigorgan and was just like, eat shit and die. And he's like, no, you die. I'm also, you know, I'm thrilled to tell you normally, of course, my comp for a moment like this obviously would be Molly Weasley. But now I have another comp. Joyce Summers. Yeah, a new thing in my life after beginning my Buffy journey. So that was that was really fun. Not my daughter, you bitch. A little slightly cheap fake out, I think, on the Karen Wheeler death thing.

just like a really unnecessarily weird deployment of time jumping back and forth. And like I don't think they needed to, I think they could have showed us all of that and still had Nancy come in and like us being unclear if Karen's going to make it. It's horrifying. Like the actual truth of what is waiting there is horrific. Butchered. Butchered. Cut to ribbons. Do you feel like the Demogorgon is slashier than he's been in previous seasons?

Shreddier? In the passage of time. Slicier and dicinger. The military has, yeah, the military has built a base and the demigorgon has done some, like, nail filing. Yeah, some, a real, a real manicure situation. I hit pause at one point as the demigorgon had slashed Ted and Ted is like flying back because I wanted to see, yeah, like you know, you know it had to go hurled through the wall into what seemed to be Mike's room. I wanted to confirm where are we kind of geographically in the house. So I hit pause.

Oceans of blood on the free frame in the middle of the frame. of the frame coming out of Ted Wheeler's chest cavity. So that was tough. Yeah, I agree with you. I didn't think that the cutting back in time was necessary at all on the editing front there. I do think that broadly this choice, I would never, even with the recasting of Holly,

I think using Holly, like in a very central way, it's really interesting to take a character who has been in the kind of shadow is in the room, observing, exposed in some way to what is happening here, but not, like, aware or involved. Same with the wheeler parents who are kind of, like, presented dust across the seasons as willfully obtuse and oblivious to what is happening right under their very noses, even when, like, government officials are in their house,

you know, saying, here's the cover story. Incorporating all three of them, Holly, Karen, and Ted in this way, to me is, like, really smart and interesting. And I think that what it does to put, as we'll talk about in a few of the scenes we're about to get to, Nancy and Mike? Yeah. In a partnership with each other?

To have the biggest impact. We've never seen that. To have the biggest impact on the party. Yeah. Having the wheelers. And then like when 11 goes, when Nancy tells 11 to go after her, right? Yeah.

So 11, even though we've never seen her interact with Holly, really, is like looking for Mike's sister. You know what I mean? Like it's all just like closer, you know, hops a little like Holly Wheeler, what the fuck? You know what I mean? But for the kids, like, this is closer. Just want to say when we're in the hospital,

the doctors do corroborate the stage show lore that Karen and Ted are relatively close in age. So First Shadow fans, you win this round. Yeah. And this is just like, we're not, like you said at the top, we'll not talk about First Shadow other than this today. But like, so this is just a show, this is a television show retcon to adhere to something in First Shadow.

And I was, so I was thinking like, first Shadow debuted in 2020, right? The stage productions, this is very recent. In other words, all the matters is this, the play happened after season four. So, like, there had not been an opportunity in the show previously to account for anything that is happening in that production. Very interesting. But yeah, giving us a like, Karen, 46, Ted, late 46, just an update on the like, you know, my mom married an older man because he had a lot of money and they settled in a cul-de-sac and now they're miserable and I don't want that. I mean, some of those facts still hold, ultimately.

But yeah, I flag that too. That was interesting. I think, like, to stick with Buffy for a second, I like also in terms of deploying the Wheeler family this way, shrinking the gap of awareness and involvement of the people who live on the hellmouth, right? It's like, it is only possible and believable for so long that you could continue to be here when people, not just like in your town, but in your fucking house are leading the charge of this. Totally. Putting aside all of the other actual in-story aspects of what is going on here with Holly and why Vecna has taken her, just in general. I think it's smart in the final season to really bring the wider Wheeler family unit into the story frame and not in stranger things with Ted and Karen just like never having to confront the supernatural. That would have been weird. It's also like how to use all your pieces that are already on the board, right? We introduce like Dr. Kay is a new character, but really, really, really. We're not, you know, in Holly's recast, but like we're not really introducing a bunch of new characters, obviously, this season.

We already have so many to deal with, right? And at times it already feels like we have, well, Derek Turnbow, we'll talk about that. Can't wait. Genuinely. But I think it's smart to use existing characters this way. And I think also Nancy's reaction, the space that they have for Nancy's reaction, us thinking about a scene that. you and I called out from season three of Nancy and Karen in the kitchen, right? When Karen said to Nancy, this world, it beats you up again and again until eventually

most people just, they just stopped trying, but you're not like that you're a fighter. You always have been. So to watch Karen, who was talking about herself, really, like I've given up, but not you, Nancy. But to watch her fight to the better end with that wine bottle was so impactful. Yeah, I really like this use of the wheelers. I do think they should suck it up and just kill them, honestly. How dare you? This is a 10-wheeler podcast.

Drow! You have betrayed something sacred. It's so mealy-mouthed to have one in a coma and one is like, to slash into both of their chest cavities and be like they're both not dead. is... I will say. Ridiculous. I did not need to hear, quote,

penetrating neck trauma in an episode of Stranger Things. I'm like, is this the pit, colon, Hawkins? This is like hearing about the de-gloved foot.

Like, I'm not prepared for this at all, even though Stranger Things can be quite violent. Look, I'm not willing to see anything happened to Dustin, Steve,

Robin, Will. So I think you're onto something we're like, maybe this is, maybe Ted is like a sacrifice we can make. Have we heard our last incredibly amusing and borderline deranged Zinger from Ted Wheeler? It's unthinkable. Well, we'll see what happens to people who are hovering between life and death. Is there like a space, a space to a visit? What is Ted going through?

That's a good question. Can he wake up long enough to say, did the buyer's family move out yet? And then he can exit this mortal coil. Something I thought was really interesting. So, you know, again, we're not talking about continuing in foreshadow, but listening to the deafers talk about how they wrote season five. So basically because of COVID delays,

they wrote most of season five before they shot season four. So they were able to put stuff from, seeding season five into season four. So the vision that Vecna gives Nancy of Karen and Holly at the time in season four, Nancy said, our homes and then he showed me my mom and Holly,

Mike, they were all, they were all. She didn't mention Ted that time. This time she says it was Holly, mom, dad, dead is what Vecna showed her in season four. So that's something they were able to put in there to pay off. But they were talking about how basically they like seeded stuff for season five

season four. But then also rewrote season five a bit based on the reaction season four, which is TV's a reactive medium. That's good. But also they said they were constantly pissing off Stephen Daldry, who is the director of the stage show, because they were constantly changing things as he was trying to like mount this, I

would say, slightly ill-advised stage production that is in continuity of a show that had not been fully written yet. But I'm sure they've made a ton of money, so they're like, ill-advised what? Joanna. We already mentioned that Lucas, who, like, Mallory loves the BBI,

gets us up to date on what year it is, what day it is, how many days we are from, quote, the day that changed everything, which is what Lucas calls it. And anything else do you want to say to that? We've already talked about this bit. Anything else you want to say about this? I think we've hit most of it, like you said. I was struck, I think Nancy's giving very strong, obviously,

the haircut and many other reasons, like Ripley vibes in this season, but I was struck by another comp here when Nancy was really lamenting, not having told the family. And Mike will eventually get here. I'm immediately like, Team Nancy in this respect. It's wild and irresponsible that they didn't tell their family what was going on.

But just in terms of kind of like the toll that this glimpse of a possible future has taken on her, it made me think of Tony. You know, and Tony Stark and like what it did to him and where it drove him to see these glimps. of people closest to him possibly being taken away. And, like, that's just an interesting thing to think about in terms of how it informs not only decision-making, but relationships moving forward.

So, yeah, that was on my mind. Speaking of Jonathan and Nancy. Yeah, exactly. Put a strain, yeah. Yeah. Lucas with the BBI's. I mean, it's just, you know, Lucas is just... House of our core.

Clutch always. Clutch always. Yeah. And I think, again, like opening the season with Will, like, rooting us in Will's vanishing as we are now experiencing another vanishing. Just feeling that passage of time. Four years. Four Vecna mind kills in season four, you know, the ticks of the clock. What's up with this number four with our guy, Henry Creel?

What's going on there? I don't have an answer. But I observe with interest that four seems to be present here. spiders. They have eight legs, not four, right? But what is eight divided by two? Four. There you go. Makes you think. How many letters in Henry? Five, but almost more. It's a care in a really long time to write them. For a while, there were only four on that clipboard. All right. Oh, man. Eleven in the upside down. Something that I was thinking about, which you seem to also be surprised to consider, is that 11 goes into the upside down, and we have not seen her there.

She floored me with this. Technically, season two, but it's a moment in season two that's really just like, rewinding the end of season one. So basically since season one, she has not been in the up. We haven't, I mean, like, you know, the older, the elder teens and Dustin

went there last season. We haven't been spending a ton of time in the upside down overall. It's been more of, like, encroaching out here. But here's 11, just like, back in the upside down. like it's nothing, just walks right through that portal in the wall, finds Hopper immediately.

And I love this interaction. Okay, like the goopy, she's like, it's bleeding. And LaHopsis and like, what got it or whatever? She's like, Karen with her wine. Like, just the way that Millie Bobby Brown delivered that line was, that was easily the funniest moment for me of the two episodes. I agree. This was like comedy gold.

Really, really. Karen with her wine. It was just absolutely hysterical. Love it. Really good. Loved it. We find out 11 discoverers, as we already knew, that Hopper has been lightly shot, right? And he's bleeding.

It's just a grace. She says, she's cleaning his wound. She says, clean, then disinfect, then bandage. And he's like, where'd you learn that? She doesn't say it. But this is Max's advice from season three. When Max is, like, basically, I follow a lot of my skateboard. I know how to clean a wound.

Yeah, so much nostalgia here. Max with the wound cleaning lesson there. a certain point, L and Hopper, like, walking down the railroad tracks. So it makes us think of those great Dusted Steve moments. Even just like the Hopper, you know, we don't drive ever. Do we do? Like, even though we don't support the way he's behaving here, it's real season two. Don't be stupid ground rolls.

Nistalgia. So, yeah, there's just so many things here that are pinging our shared experience with these characters over the years. We got an email that I really wanted to mention here because Hop and 11 have a couple different conversations here about this idea of like gut, instinct, emotion, intellect, like what we use, what we act on. Yep. As we go forward, as you mentioned, then we get Hopper talking about the war and his daughter,

Sarah. But Rachel, following up on a conversation you and I had had about Henry's advice on how to fight, et cetera, and season four, Rachel says, we've had all of these warning against the dangers of using her powers from a place of anger, even though it clearly gives her juice. Jokes to pose with that, we have the music patroness tool against Vecna, aka Love. So the scene that I keep thinking of is from X-Men First Class, training montage. Charles is helping Eric. This is actually, pause, one of my favorite scenes from a superhero movie ever.

Really good, yeah. Charles is helping Eric. His line is, quote, true focus lies somewhere between rage and serenity, end quote, which strikes me as a very germane. Maybe Elle just needs a little James McAvoy poured it in to find our greatest power access. I mean, who doesn't? Yum. So that's my theory.

It's pretty simple, but for Elle to access her full power, she can't totally turn away from the anger. She also cannot succumb to it slash be controlled by it, somewhere between rage and serenity. I like this comment. I really like thinking about it as Hopper and 11 keep having these conversations about, like, what motivates them, what they're acting on, you know, where true power lies, control versus out of control, et cetera, et cetera. And lastly, I just really quickly want to mention. I meant to mention this earlier in one of our rewatch episodes, but I did not get to it. But when Hop is having another devastating, we cannot tolerate a Sarah flashbacks. They're so sad.

But it's a reminder that though the show, I believe, has never called it out. When we first see Sarah and she's got her little, like little pigtails in, she's got these like blue little scrunchies in her. her hair. In the flashbacks, we see Hopper wearing the blue scrunchy on his wrist when Sarah's in the hospital and he's like reading to her and she's crashing out and stuff like that. Hopper's wearing it on his wrist for a bit in season two. And in season two, 11 starts to wear it and has been wearing it ever since and is still wearing it in this scene. It's just this very slim, light blue scrunchy basically on her wrist. And it is just like this beautiful thing between them that like even when they were separated, even after all this time, et cetera, et cetera,

as she wore this, like, talisman of Hopper's other daughter on her wrist, which I just think is gorgeous. I love that. Yeah, it's like the very other piece of what we've talked about in other examples today, like a physical manifestation of your devotion to somebody or what you mean to them or they mean to you. And yeah, I, you know, I loved like hearing L fireback, non-emotion instinct and the way that she is challenging Hopper and standing up to Hopper. I really love the email you just shared,

and it makes me, it feels very of a piece with what you were saying in the last pod where you're like finding myself like picking a lot of Brenner and Vetna coils, and isn't that interesting? And how like, you know, I really loved the point you made on that pod that like obviously it is very centered in the story to embrace the good and the joy and, you know, the fact that eight or Papa were the ones saying tap into your anger and that there's people in the party

in Elle's life are the ones saying like, you know, or with Max and... Turn up that Kate Bush, baby. Kate Bush, yeah. Like, you know, that's this beautiful, like, kind of like the sanctity of the love and safety of those friendships. But I loved what you were saying about, like, we can't turn off and look away from completely the other parts of who you are. And there's power there too. And that feels very of a piece as well with like a central tenant of stranger things, which is who am I?

Right. And what does it mean to embrace that in full? And that it's not, doesn't have to be a dichotomy. The monster or the super... Yeah, you know, either or means ignoring maybe an entire aspect of existence and fearing it and then where does the fear lead you? Well, part of this is like you have to break through the fear. So I really love that email. And I had been thinking a lot about those.

I thought what you said on that front last pod was really important and is very on my mind now thinking about season five. So I really love that. And hearing Hop say to L here, like, you know, you're more like me than I'd like to admit. I love this conversation between them because it's sort of like forced by a number of circumstances. Elle challenging, L. insisting that she's ready for something that he is for reasons we understand and that I'll share here further. Like he is afraid. He is afraid of loss of grief. But also like, he's been shot.

They're in the upside down. The demigorgon is on the loose. There are all of these reminders all the time of the horrors that are around every bend and how tenuous it all is. And so I was just like, I was really moved and really struck by, I think, hearing the emotion and the raw nature of what he was saying. Also with the kind of very rational, like, reckless. Like, I loved what he said, you might call them brave, talking about the things he did. But there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity. I saw a lot of brave men die and that were friends of mine and how that's this, like, really foundational wound in his life and what he brought back with him.

And it just made me think about how few moments, how. Hopper and L have spent really sharing with each other. And so your point about the blue tie, it's like Hopper was able to share that because he wasn't, it was a way of telling Elle something he wasn't ready to tell her with words. You know? And like, I don't know, there's something I really like

about the idea of you're like a middle-aged person and you're still not really any better at saying what you're feeling to each other than these children are. That just feels very true to life to me. So I think somebody really loved this. Yeah, someone like Hopper especially who has experienced a bunch of trauma and is also in sort of like has been in an arrested development space to his undergrad. Okay, Reality Bites. So Maya Hock is in this bucket with Winona Ryder and Noah Schnott, the buyer's bucket, right?

She's not been interacting with Winona Ryder, which means for the first time I was really forced to confront the sort of like Winona Ryder, Ethan Hawke, Reality Bites, iconic Gen X movie and the fact that like, She's now with his daughter, Maya Hawk. And I didn't, I didn't, couldn't bear to look up the dates of, like, when Maya Hawk was born versus when reality bites came out. So I'm just not going to leave it unknown. But I thought that was, like, a really interesting pairing. And I love that. That's a perfect movie to me.

Yes. It's very fun to see them in some scenes together. I've quite enjoyed this dynamic. I was, like, actually confused by when Robin asks about the. lights going all kooky and all electronic short-circuiting and says, like, has this ever happen? And Joyce says no. But Dustin has like a plan for what to do when that happened? Yeah. And isn't this like, is this all that different from like the phone frying in season one? I was that that was quite understand that. That was weird. Anyway, maybe Joyce is also just like,

I'm in a scene with Robin, with Rock and Robin. I'm overwhelmed. It's possible. Celebrity among us. Anything you want to say about sort of, uh, What Will and Robin and Joyce talk about, this idea of Will is a receiver, Robin sliding down the banister, Joyce's call sign being dungeon master, anything else. Oh, my God. Well, the call sign being dungeon master really took me, and I'm sure many, to some interesting Joyce Hopper fan fiction places. I'll have to revisit the lyrics from West End Girl to see if I can take any further inspiration there.

but this was quite notable and quite, quite something. On the Will Vecna front, I think, like, it's an interesting, it feels very of a piece with where we've been. It's an interesting evolution and kind of like further, you know, literalization of this hive mind idea that's been so central, this connection between Will and Vecna, you know, I think hearing him say, like, now he's closer, he's closer than ever before in this idea of the proximity between the antenna and the waves.

Like, all that is kind of basically a way to establish. how the plot of what they're doing in this episode will work made sense to me. The thing I was most struck by was just him saying I was permanently changed. Like that just felt like such a... The trauma. Key line. The absolute trauma. And yeah, I hope that Joyce is like, so I was right to go to California.

And maybe we should have stayed there perhaps. Yeah. If everything just sort of went away when Willis in California. This is also, you know, we talked about this a lot. And like when we were revisiting season two and we were talking about pop culture influences and with all the spy shack stuff, I was talking about the Harry Voldemort like horror cracks of it.

This feels like very much a return to that. Oh, yeah. You know, not only because Will is like literally, I've spied on it before, George's like, it went poorly. But just this idea of kind of this question of like what through that connection latched on? Yeah, what is left behind? Yeah.

And I mean, there's obviously the actual aspect of you, seeing through somebody's like eyes or into their mind that is a really clear comp, I think, to how that, um, Horcorkerx canon ended up unfolding. But that question of like, yeah, what, what is left behind from that eye is very top of mind after this? Other goop is in there. Um, not just dark goop, but other goop. Okay.

Robin pulls the Back to the Future, uh, Gambit. It is extraordinary, really good. Incredible. I loved this. She says this thing to Will. She says, the enigma machine won the war. Knowledge is power. Our listener, Ed, sent us an email a little while ago,

just pointing out the fact that, like, when we were very distracted by Eleven's diary. Yeah. When they were doing, like, sort of like their hero presentation in season four. But that Will's hero project was on Alan Turing, the, you know, brilliant mind behind the Endigma Machine and also a, gay and persecuted horribly for his sexuality. So we get Robin making an enigma reference here. Will's Hero Project was on Ellen Turing.

My question for the Duffers is, do you know any other historical gays, or is it just the one? Is it just Ellen Turing? More seriously, I do like the beginning of what we're seeing here, of course, with Robin and Will walking through the woods. There is, do you want to talk about the mandala,

as Robin's like, mandala, Mandala, the White Walker vibes I just thought, you know, the spiral is something that recent genre TV viewers like associate, I think, with the White Walkers. And then we see Elle and Hop

make their way to this wall and it's like so so thronesy. It's just so thronesy. And Elle, you know, is speculating that okay, well, like, I can't, when I look for Holly, I can't find her. And so this idea of like, what is that wall designed to keep in or out, which again is like very thronesy as a prompt

and an idea. So I don't know. I mean, we moved past that spiral on the ground pretty quickly, but it was another visual that pinged thrones. It's interesting. First, when they first found the spiral, I was like, oh, this is going to be a thing. The second time I watched the episode, I was like, or is this just meant to be here to remind Will about the spinning?

And then he's like, and then he like remembers that how, that he figures out. Because he heard children laughing that it was Holly on the turnstile. Entirely possible because he is immediately like to the playground. So that it could just be that. But at least we have the wall no matter what. And look. I think it's really funny because Finn Wolfheart among others are like, well, what we don't want to do is the end of Game of Thrones.

Like literally calling out, it's the new lost, right? What we don't want to do is that. We also don't want them to do that. We also don't want that. I mean, we love the end of loss, but the end of Thrones. obviously deeply painful still. You know, it's interesting because the Duffers have said we're really going for Battle of the Bastards, which, to be clear, is not the end of lost.

But I would say our takeaway from the end of loss was like too much action, not enough chit-chat. So we would love more of that. Anyway. Did you think that the great Scott flux capacitors down again thing was just for the absolute comedic gold, not only of that moment, but the I thought, no, no, it's just comedy brilliance of Joyce than bringing it up later so earnestly, which was incredible. Or do you think this is yet? And obviously it calls back to like, you know, in season three watching back to the back to the future in the movie theater while still full of the Russian's

drugs. But is this yet another? Like, is this a little time travel promise for us? What do you think? What do you think? For you also, yes. Yes. I want more than anything for this to be true, just for you. I also I have to expect that Robin and Steve rewatched Back to the Future a bunch of times at the video store because I would be really surprised if she remembered

flux capacitor from her drugged out experience inside the movie theater. Okay a team of rivals Jonathan and Steve, we haven't already mentioned this but they have because Dustin fails to show up for the crawl and Will needs to be wrapped in bubble wrap

is Jonathan in the van with Steve and This to me is a stroke of genius. I absolutely love this. Very good. Yeah. Very good. Charlie Heaton and Joe Keri are really, really good friends. If you've ever listened to Joe Keri song, Charlie's Garden, that's, of course,

about Charlie Hedon's Garden. And so it's just, like, really fun to have the two of them together in this sort of absolutely sniping at each other scenario. If Steve is rolling his eyes at being stuck with Dustin all the time, the joy he feels about having Jonathan Byers in his car is just a lot. In this moment, in this visit in the hospital moment. Yeah. And Jonathan's snapping and being like, give it a fucking rest.

Yep. Whose side are you on here? Do you believe Steve when he was like, just trying to get my friend some support? Or do you think Jonathan is right that when Steve was like, well, you know, the hospital's just like on the way, man? We could just stop. What do you think? I think it's not a clear cut enough for me to pick a side because I think they're both wrong. And I think they're both a little right.

think that Nancy would actually want them to focus on the mission. I agree. And keep going. I think that that's actually right and true. I think that Steve is definitely wrong to play dumb when Jonathan's like, dude, today of all days, like, you can't stop, like, trying to prove you're better than me. I also do think that Steve caring about whether Nancy's okay, like, kind of makes him seem like he'd be a better boyfriend than Jonathan. So I think all of that's not nothing. All of that's true.

I was very distracted in the scene by the Haley's Comet bumper sticker on the glove box in front of Jonathan in the front seat there. That was just like an incredible 1986 detail. I remember all of the Haley's Comet excitement in 86. Okay. Then Dustin wheels up looking like absolute shit. Yeah. 11 coincidentally finds hopper right away in the upside down. Dustin happens to stumble across Steve and Jonathan in the van.

I'm not upset about this. This is fine. I guess Dustin at least knew what the plan was, so he knew what you're like grinned to head to. Yeah, that's fair. Help, this hurts my feelings. I can't help you because I am struggling. I'm a wreck. This is so sad.

Steve says, you just poke the bear one too many times. And Dustin says, sarcastically, you're concerned for me is overwhelming, Steve. then Steve says, my concern, I've shown nothing but concern for you forever. And I've been repeatedly ignored and now look what's happening. We are totally and royally screwed. So a couple things, but I have to imagine that they're giving us this pain so that we can feel something when they inevitably reconcile inside of the season. I have to imagine that's what this exists.

This also feels like one of those things that maybe they ceded back into season four, like knowing that they want to do this in season five. They put those little, like, tone comments. It's the arrogance. It's the attitude. It's the whatever in season four. Dustin certainly does ignore Steve a ton, and that's all true. But Steve having, Steve's seeing how physically battered Dustin is,

and he knows he's like it was Andy, wasn't it? Like, you know, blah, blah. And it's still this hard on him is just really difficult to watch, really, really difficult. Yeah. I also found this very sad and very hard. I am assuming we are building toward a deeply moving

and beautiful reconciliation that we'll have us, like, reduced into a puddle of tears. I think, like, Dustin is a dick to Steve. He's, like, belittling and condescending and makes Steve feel stupid, which, as Steve's friend,

he should know, is kind of like a vulnerability and insecurity of Steve's. Steve is way more focused on Dustin, kind of casting him aside and no longer turning to him as a resource and you're my life coach and you're the coolest person in the world and I need you to tell me how to do everything. And that was something that Steve loved and grew accustomed to

and is longing for now. And so he is not acting appropriately or kindly to Dustin because he is feeling insecure about kind of the absence of that and the change in that relationship. And it's just like, I don't know, I think, while I would love to have never seen a moment where they were really truly cruel to each other because it's so sad, I kind of like that we're, like, I can't, I'm longing for a return to the vibe between them that I am accustomed to, but I do like, once again, I like this because

it feels to me like another version of other members of the friend group or the party at odds with each other. Will and Mike or, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, I don't know, you have rocky patches with the people you're closest to, And as we've talked about in covering other things, sometimes those are the most painful because you can be the cruelest of the people you love the most because you know how to hurt them. You know, speaking of poking the bear, like you know what to say to somebody very close to you that will like really destroy them. So I don't know.

It's like really sad. And I hope that they're not in this space for long. I think they're both kind of in a way feeling like misunderstood, unsupported and underappreciated and not processing that super well. Okay, I really hope they find each other soon. Same. It's really hurting my feelings. Same. Speaking of hurting my feelings.

Yeah. Erica, help. I'm very upset. Lucas at Max's bedside. Again, we get two instances of this. She's been in a coma for 20 months. Did. He visits her twice in like a day.

So how often is Lucas this? there. Yeah. It's devastating to me. I mean, you know, he has this whole speech to her. She's going to need the party, the full party, which is why I'm here. The final battle, I feel like it started tonight. And Max, we can't win this without you.

He's crying. If my theory is right, we're running out of time. So if you're planning on resurrecting anytime soon, now, now is the time. Even a sign would be enough to show me you're still in there. Please, Max, please wake up. I miss you. The I Miss you absolutely destroyed me. This does destroyed me.

Here's a question I have. Yeah. The little drawing of them at the movies is taped up on the wall. The tape deck is here to play Kate Bush on repeat. Yeah. There is nothing else in this room for Max. She has a mom. Where is Max's mom?

Where is, if not flowers, because flowers style. that's fine, but like, where are the, I don't know, like a teddy bear? Like something that makes this look like people care about Max other than Lucas. It's really sad to me. Great question. That her mom is just like not present at all inside of this. That's a great question. Yeah.

This is very sad. I think scenes like this, as we've talked about, are just really important. Like the heart of the bonds that drive the characters, that's what drives the story. so to take a pause to just luxuriate in the depth of feeling that these people have for each other amid the action really, really crucial. I hope we keep getting moments like this. I miss you was soul shredding. Focusing on the heart monitor and the Kate Bush swells. And it's just, that's a trigger for all of us.

Yes. All right, Mike and Nance take the slow road to Henry. As you said, Nancy and Mike on a little mission is great. the sort of like, Loki and Thor get help-esque, like Candy Striper and Limping Patient, a bit they do to get into Karen's room. Here's how Karen, who's doing pretty well. She's fairly lucid and she can't talk, but she can write. Yeah. This is how she describes the what's it details, right?

Tall pocket watch vest. Couple things. Fechna obviously loves a timepiece. This guy fucking loves a clock. Can't be done. Can't be seen without it. But also... This guy, Vecna would have known

every setting on the Apple Watch. That's so embarrassing. Outdone by Vecna. Again. Pocket Watch vest, extremely white rabbit-coded, hauling down the rabbit hole into Wonderland. When Karen is slowly spelling out H-E-N-R-Y,

which, again, was way behind where we were. as an audience. Yeah. How much of this was giving you, I am Lord Holdenboard. Tom, the whole riddle. Yeah. It's, I mean, this is all just super horroxy to me. Yeah.

Yeah. Not in a, obviously not in a bad way, but I think it is quite a clear comp. Yeah. So who are the children the horro cruxes? Like, what do you, what would you say are the horroxies in this scenario? Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess that's the question, right? And, you know, in terms of this opening note of like Vecna saying this thing to Will about like what is beginning here and then the fact that he is, I'll save all your friends. Yeah, it takes Hallie and is like, I saved all your friends. And Will is kind of like, wait, let's like, let's go back to the playground. Like this is a, this feels like a key setting here. this is obviously a source of active speculation here in the conversation between Lucas and Nancy and Mike the why Holly question.

So I don't know. I mean, I don't know if like how much we want to talk about that here versus maybe like saving some of that and coming back to it. I think we should talk about it a bit more next time. Yeah, yeah. So maybe we'll circle back to that question and talk about that more next spot. That feels like a good time to do it. I will say, if I'm Will Byers, I am writing a strongly worded letter to the kidnapping authorities. Because Holly Wheeler's kidnapping experience, as harrowing as watching her mom get shredded to ribbons was, this is pretty nice now compared to Bill, to Will's shivering in Castle Byers, you know, just run in for his life.

Holly's just Lottie dying up the steps to, uh-oh, it's Creel mansions. Beautiful home. Beautiful home. The Creel house. Oh, dear. Watch out for the Black Widows in the vents, but still. Beautiful home, and I've yet to see Barb. I've yet to see Barb's corpse anywhere, you know?

Yeah, great clock. The playground is there across the street, just as it was in last season. Holly, the heroic still on Holly's necklace. in terms of that sort of inception totem, talisman, the question, it's there. I loved to Mike when he was talking to Nancy kind of presenting his Mr. What's It, Mrs. What's It Theory. First of all, I like that Mike was like, my theory as holes, but kind of work with me. Can everyone just kind of? No bad ideas in a brainstorm.

Exactly. David Jacoby says, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. I just like the way that he said, so this is her creation about Holly. like that little kind of touch of embracing imagination rather than like judging it or holding it in some sort of but yeah I don't know I just I'm I'm very pro-mic in these in these two episodes so that's really fun and as you know I was really down on my wheeler so it's a real turnaround it's a turnaround on Jonathan for me too on this rewatch so I'm just like having me

I mean you've yet to share your thoughts on Jonathan's card again we'll get to it any It'll come up. I liked to do when Mike said to Nancy, because again, it's fun to see them brainstorming together, working together. They've both been involved in this fight for so long, but really, I mean, in a way that is very reminiscent of just young siblings kind of bickering at each other,

being dicks to each other. They've never really been quite this aligned. And so the fact that their family is in the heart of it here and they have to sit next to each other and play in a plot. But you get these moments where, you know, Nancy, Mike's like, I was kind of hoping you'd tell me, you're the genius investigator. He's like, that's not fair. Appealing to my ego. And then they run their little like, you know. She calls him cute. She's like, you go talk. You're cute. Yeah. Yeah. Like the scrubs and candy

striper outfit Gambit, like you said. The, you know, the simply, it's just, I've really enjoyed that. I really have. So I was, I would not have been on my like season five wish list necessarily, like seeing Nancy and Mike at the four together. But I'm really, I'm really I also like the position it puts her in. And I like this with Robin and Nancy, too, last season, but like it not just being who is Nancy dating, but like what are her other relationships, right? She doesn't have any, she didn't make any friends. Barb died and she's like, no more friends for me.

More friends. Just boyfriends and ex-boyfriends. And then she made a friend with Robin. She's got one friend, Robin, and her ex-boyfriend and her boyfriend. But she has a brother. So, you know, we're just like finding new facets for good old Nancy. Here's what I want to say about Henry. who promises Holly he will, quote, save her friends first and then, quote, I'll save your family

too, of course. I have room for everyone here. This is fine. This is what Jamie Campbell-Bauer said in Empire Magazine. Vecna was a human. Vecna was a child. Vecna was a boy who felt like he could never fit in anywhere. He was a quite lonely figure to me, this very sad boy who really only needed to be cared for. You'll see more in season five, so I'm hesitant to say too much. But from the pain he suffer, he wanted to create a better world or what he envisaged as a better world. It reminds me of when I hear of Doctor Who two-parters, right?

Silence of the Library, right? This idea of like saving people, what it means to save someone. Donna Noble has left the library. Donna Noble has been saved, right? Like what is your, what is a traumatized child's version

of that? And what, you know, like, is when back, I mean, there's just the straightforward menacing, like, when I say save, I mean kill all your friends on family. Like, there's that possibility. But there's also, like, is there a way in which Fechna has convinced himself? When he says, there are monsters in Hawkins, when Mr. Wetzit says it, it seems like a sort of seduction tactic to, to I will protect you from this. But, like, what if he considers, like, the humans of, to the monsters were the monsters.

The humans of Hawkins are the monsters. And I'm going to save you all from it in this. candy-colored playworld that I've invented, you know? Yeah. Behind this meat wall. Behind this pulsating meat wall of vines and like nodules. Yeah. I'm with you on all of that. I think like the, you know, thinking back to Vecna's taunt to Nancy in season four,

obviously very top of mind for us in these episodes because the prophetic nature of the pledge to destroy Hawkins and her. family has come back into the plot very actively. But, you know, that moment when Vecna's like, you forgot about Barb already, huh? Like, you know, when I kill people, I don't forget them. They're all right here. Just everything, obviously, that we saw in the Mind Palace, like, in season four, this idea that Vecna has, the way that he, this big speech we got from Henry about, you know, the empowerment of like creation and the spiders and what does he see and superior beings and gods and the way that he looks at humanity and the way that people live their lives and is like,

what is this? What if we did it this way instead? What if I could build the world that I want? So yeah, like, I think what you're describing sounds like exactly the kind of logic Vecna would apply to who is, to what he views as good deeds, you know? What is he doing to improve the world? because what does an approved world mean to Vecna or, you know, to one or to little Henry back in the day? I suspect that's what a lot of the season will be about. Henry drops the simper, closes the door on the Creel house. The Cordettes kick up Mr. Sandman plays, and we are out on, yeah, between Rock and Robin and Mr. Samman, we're really hitting the oldies for one Miss Mallory Rubin here.

Love an oldie. Anything else you want to say about these two episodes before we get to, we're going to do just a few stranger superlatives. Yes, quick want. Quick wands. No, you know, again, I loved when I know Robin was like, sorry, when I get nervous, you know, you mentioned the monster layer. And so I'm like, but that felt like yet another step toward a thing that we were very

much anticipating. So I remained just really invested in that new duo Will and Robin. But I'm ready for the superlatives. I'll say that there was a moment where I was like, have I awarded every single superlative to Karen Wheeler? Oh, my God. I had to switch it up a little bit. Oh, great.

Okay. Yeah. for these season five episodes so far, at least. So number one, we are keeping the category. I'd put peanut butter on that in honor of Yuri and also the boppers. We just decided to keep peanut butter alive. We're using this as sort of like our horniest moment category. So what are you answering for the I'd put peanut butter on that moment?

How can it be anything but Joyce on the radio saying this is Dungeon Master of the Scout Battalion? Do you copy? over. I'm going to give it to Robin asking Vicky to wear the candy striper hat and only the candy striper hat. So very good. Very good as well. Very good as well. All right. The fit or hair lord of season five, Volume 1, Part 1. Rolls right off the tongue. I am going with Dustin honoring Eddie by wearing the hellfire tea and growing out the hair long. But as an honorable mention, I do want to say that Karen in the sodden nightgown after hiding under the bubble bath, which is a lot of the wine bottle in hand and the on the doctor who front very rose Tyler-esque mascara streaming

on her cheeks was instantly iconic to me. Instantly iconic. That would be a great stranger things cosplay, I think, Karen with the wine and the nightgown. Okay, this is where I want to talk about Jonathan Byers Cardigan. Please. Just an absolute, like, I've been thinking about cardigans a lot since our conversation about Wicked. the internet is a buzz talking about alpha buzz. Ill-conceived sex cardigan.

Jonathan Byers, this is how you wear a cardigan. This is very, very excellent cardigan work from Jonathan Byers. This is like real cool guy shit from Jonathan Byers. Maybe even too cool for 1987, but I'm going to give it to him. I've always loved Jonathan, as you know. I do wonder seeing this if Charlie He, Keaton was just like, guys, look at my Instagram. I'm like, really cool.

Can I win my car? Can you please let me? Like, can I rip off a fit? Please? That feels like maybe what happened here. Perhaps, perhaps, yeah. Needle drop moment. So some good candidates this time.

I will go with, despite the subhead of about ABA that you put in the doc that I loved. I'm just, I'm going to go with Diana Ross upside down because I liked the way that that was incorporated into the code, you know, the code cover song for Rock and Robin. I thought that was smart. On the Rock and Robin beat, I'm going to give it to her dedication to Vicky, which is pretty and pink by the psychedelic furs. And I love this because, I mean, that song's from 1981, but the movie came out in 1986. The idea that, like, Vicky is giving Molly Ringwald and the idea that, like, Vicky looks pretty in her pink candy striper uniform. It's just, like, a multi-level piece of work from a DJ at the top of her game. So great stuff

from Robin on the dedication front. But also, Fernando is used very well inside this stretch. And it's probably the most expensive needle drop that they used here. Okay, goopiest moment. We cannot do our usual closed captioning category because our screeners did not appear to have the closed captions on them. So we will revisit this for the next part. We'll go back to our closed caption category. So we are swapping it in for Goopiest Moment.

I will be going with Karen. using the wine bottles to stab them. I can't wait see how that is closed caption. There better be a really vintage Netflix subtitle on that one. I know.

We were devastated not to have them on this watch. So we'll have to rewatch these episodes with a close captioning on. I'm giving it to Dr. K with a scalpel in the upside down who slices into this sack

to produce something that would make Georgia O'Keefe blush. Just the most apparently anatomical squelching happening right behind her while she's dressing down a soldier. So I got to give it to Dr. Kay and the hell vagina, I guess, is what I'll call it? The hell mouth, if you prefer. The hell mouth, indeed. Great pick. All right.

Well, that has been, as you said, Rolls off quickly off the tongue. Season 5, volume one, part one, we'll be back with episodes three and four next week. We will, we'd love to get your emails, hobas and dragons at gmail.com. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns

about stranger things or fights of the century, etc., etc. Happy holidays. Happy Thanksgiving. Hope you're spending time either by yourself or with people you love. I love doing both of those things, so I hope you're enjoying that. And thanks to our family, to Carlos Chiroboga, to John Jones, to Mike Wargan for his work on this episode, to our Juno Rankapal, and to join me a dinner on the social.

And we'll see you for Season 5, Volume 1, Part 2 next week. Bye. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yama resort and casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamava's history. Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29th. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly.

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