House of R - 'Stranger Things' Season 5, Episodes 5 and 6 Deep Dive

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

Mal and Jo are back in the Upside Down to dive deep into the first two episodes of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5, Volume 2! (00:00) Intro (04:15) Opening Snapshot (32:54) “Chapter Five: Shock Jock” (01:44:34) “Chapter Six: Escape from Camazotz” (02:42:41) Stage Show Script Reader Corner Prepare for one last adventure at Target. Visit target.com/StrangerThings Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me today wearing a beautiful Hellfire Club t-shirt. It's Mallory Rubin. Hey, Mal. Joe, do you accept my own proposal? Always, always. We're team as ever. We're here to talk about Stranger Things Season 5, Volume 2, Part 1, aka 5th and 6 episodes of Season 5. Happy holidays. That's right. Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas. The Solstice just happened when we're recording. this. However you celebrate the holidays, we hope you're enjoying yourselves. We are here to talk about kidnapped children, seminal moments in relationships, dripping

goo. A lot of goo. It's a very goopy time. I'm really excited, but we're going to do all that after this. This episode of House of R is presented by Target. Stranger Things has returned to Target, and it's time to visit Hawkins for the final time. Step back into the 80s with righteous exclusives like a funco pop of Steve and the Squawk van, the epic squawk satin bomber jacket, and the Stranger Things You May upside down capsule shaped like a walkie-talkie. New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target.

Okay, it is the end of the year, but Mallory and I are not done with podcasting. We are recording this podcast a little bit in advance of the Stranger Things Volume 2 drop a couple days in advance. we'll record our final Stranger Things Volume 2 episode after the episode's air. So if you have thoughts and feelings about what you see in Volume 2, you have a little window to email us, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com about what you think about these three episodes. And then we will record the second part of that and that will drop. Are we thinking the Friday, the Saturday? What do you think after the holidays?

We're recording on Friday. Yeah. But the Ringer team is trying to do a lot with, you know, a limited holiday crew. So it might, in terms of just timing, it might be waiting for everyone on Saturday. Right. Let's give our producers a break and everyone else a break. And we are doing our best this holiday season. So we're doing that.

Double Stranger Things this week for the holiday week. We'll be back at the end of the year to do Stranger Things finale episode. We don't know exactly when we're doing that because we are fairly certain we're not getting a screener for that. So you have some patience with us as we drop our finale pod in and around New Year's. And also just wanted to flag that Mallory and I are over on the Prestige TV podcast feed talking about the heated rivalry finale. So there's a lot of Mallory Rubin and Joanna Rubin and Joanna Rubin and Joanna and Joina Robinson here at the end of all things at the end of the year. Best. Spoiler warning.

Yes. All of Stranger Things. Mm-hmm. Up through season five, episode six, right? So just five and six. We've seen episode seven. We're not going to talk about it until our part two of this chunk of the pod. We're also, I think we should just say theory corner maybe for the next pod because I don't think there's any point in us theorizing about an episode we've already seen, but we're not going to talk about. So don't worry about it. And then we do have like a very minor stage show script reader corner at the very end of this pod. We will let you know when that's coming. But just sort of like once again, we're back in the cave system. There are some stranger things for shadow, theatrical experience, insight that might be helpful. But we'll put that behind a spoiler warning for you. Anything else I should say sort of premise what?

before we get into our opening snapshot Miller a bit? I don't think so. Just co-assigning what you said. Send us your emails after you watch these three episodes. You know, is the pod hitting your feed Saturday?

Yeah, but we're recording like midday Friday Pacific time. So get us your emails by midday Friday Pacific. Abandon your family at Christmas to write us an email. Exactly. I mean,

it's a podcast family, isn't it? It is. It is. Very, very true. This episode is brought to by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borshead just did that.

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We just have a couple of, Hobbits and Dragons inputs here that I want to share. First of all, Owen, who you may remember from his wife's email about his Jansport that he's had since, like, middle school, emailed and was very a flattered that his Jansport got such a lengthy mention in the pod, also sent some more photos of his Jansport from like places around the world that he had taken it, sort of like the Amel E Nome. And then wanted to, without spoiling for you, he actually like put spoiler text over it in case you read the email, talk about a Buffy season four character and how it was like a comp to Dr. Kay.

We're not going to talk about it, but I just say if you know, you know. Interesting. And I agree. Interesting. Okay. But that is for Mallory to discover in her own time. But I just want to say, oh, and I agree. And if anyone else at home knows, they know probably which season four character we're talking

about. Is this a flattering? Like, is this a positive comp? In either direction in both directions? I would say no. I would say no. I would say no. Not the top of anyone's ranking of favorite characters in the Buffy universe, I would say.

Got it. Okay. But I can see the comp, and I think it's interesting. And then Ari wrote in to say, watching Holly's scenes in the Creole Mansion in the first few episodes of Stranger Things Season 5 got me thinking about a certain kind of sci-fi trope. From what I can tell, seems like it's called kind of awkwardly the, quote, lotus eater machine. The narrative device where a character is placed inside an idyllic dream. like or artificially constructed reality designed to soothe or satisfy them, but ultimately functions as containment.

That's the end of our, well, Ari wrote a much longer email about this, but I wanted to include this for a couple of reasons. And I think it's, it's even more worth talking about perhaps in our next Stranger Things Pot or maybe even at the end of, at the end of the finale, depending on what happens with, with the kids who are in the Creel mansion right now. But the Lotus Cedar Machine, I thought, you know, which probably already got from TV tropes. I thought was fun to bring up because, of course, we're talking about The Odyssey, you know,

so that's where this idea comes from, the Lotus Eater's is an Odyssey thing. The Lotus Eater machine, I agree, is sort of like an interesting combination. But this is definitely an idea we've talked about. There's actually like a, there's a Buffy episode that has something like this. I talk about it a lot when I talk about the movie Labyrinth. There's like a very interesting part of the movie Labyrinth where this happens, where someone has sort of tried to, they try to lull you into. A false, to stay asleep.

Right. Don't fight what's happening to you. Forget about your quest and your journey and just stay here. It's comfortable here. So I know we've talked like... We touched on it during Percy Jones in season one. Yeah. Yeah.

So this is an interesting trope. Ari mentioned that he went back, or they, I'm sorry, already mentioned that they went back and listened to our portal worlds, uh, Trobes episode. And was like, you didn't talk about it then, but we have talked about it before. I don't think we've ever used this like, name for it though so I like learning this term and definitely it'll come back up again. Anything else you want to say about that idea or any or Jan Sports or anything else?

I do have some thoughts coming on the food that we see on the spread, but I'll save that for when we get to the grill mansion. Don't eat anything. Well, I might surprise you with my take. Oh. I'll just tell you right now, here's my take. Mr. What's it? Come kidnap me. This looked great. Okay. First of all, put it on the merch. Mr. Weiss had come kidding at me, put it on the merch, an old timer, Mallory Take. Secondly, does it inform your adoration of the alt world, the lotus eater machine world food, knowing that what you're actually eating is goop being forced fed to you from a fleshy tentacle that is attached to a pulsating sack that is attached to Vecna? Listen, I try not to think about it. That's what the Lotus Cedars want you to not think about it. Mechna's pulsing flesh sack is, of course, always on our minds.

Sure, sure. From meat ring to pulsing flesh sack, the conversation evolves, but how Sabar remains the same. Turns out it's a meat tube. Isn't it always? Isn't it always? You know, revisiting a wrinkle in time, which of course, is once again, central to the text today. The stretch on Camazots where it's like,

ooh, this delicious Thanksgiving dinner. And the variance across the character set, whether you're in a trance or you are free of that of like, this is really great. And this tastes like sawdust. Of course, also on our minds here. But I thought, you know, was it like a pineapple upside down cake in the back?

Those cupcakes right in the foreground that had like the jelly fruit wedges. that really took me back to childhood. I thought this looked great. I know myself. I know myself well enough. I would be, I'd like to think I'd be out there like Holly the Heroic or out there like Delightful Derek, Detective Derek.

No, I'd probably be like Mary and Thomas and the other kids just like fistfuls of Turkish delight and macaroons and ooh, what's on the TV now? Oh, wait. Are there some fits I could check out in these closets? However, yes, I have some notes on the snack selection at the squawk. Interesting. Do you want to get into it right now as we're in Snack Corner? Here's my suspicion about the snacks at the Squawk.

This is all product placement. We felt it in part one with the boppers, like the boppers, which you can buy. I mean, no free ads, but we learn from our listeners, you can still buy those. No free ads, but send us some nature mallee. I'm sure there has been a massive. of uptick in Bopper's consumption since part one. Murray holding the bugles box and basically cheesing at the camera while he did it. I hope he got paid a promotional fee for that product placement.

But what did you want to say? I hope so as well, but that's my note. Now, you can see a lot of good stuff in the box. Obviously, Erica is like inspired while downing a high sea juice box. Great. We see some Pringles. Wonderful, some chips of Hoy great. Obviously, we have a twinkie in there.

I would definitely take the twinkies. Thank you, Joe. We'll see Lucas heating up the popcorn. We see some cheese puffs, some pretzels, some planters, peanuts. The bag of Doritos, which is like very central to the snack focus of Caesar 5. It's right there, and we don't grab it. We grab the bugles. I've never been a bugle fan.

I'm sorry. Two of the snacks in my youth that I just never felt partial to, a bugle and a frito. Both felt like they burned my tongue a little bit. Now, maybe I wouldn't feel that way now when I basically just mainline sugar and salt 24-7 and have no idea how I'm alive. Perhaps how I would love a bugle. But I didn't love them when I was a kid and they were everywhere. Kids in my school would put them on their fingers and pretend like they were long nails.

I assume this was a universal pastime. A bugle, it was just never for me. So I'm like, of all these things, this is what Murray grabs? A bugle? He's smuggling in all of these goodies. He managed to find a body glove wetsuit for Elle that Mike thought was incredibly impressive and memorable. But bugles are the go-to. I'm sorry.

It's just not what I would have chosen. While you were talking about beagles, while you were giving me that incredible bugle rant, I was trying to remember, I think there's a character in like season five or six of Buffy. Yeah. Who is a big, who puts the beagles on their finger and is a big bugle fan. But I cannot confirm it while I'm simultaneously podcasting. So I will not say for certain, but everything comes back to Buffy. Here's my question.

Tell me. There seems to be a clear snack divide. Yeah. In the Creole Mansion, it's Sugartown. Uh-huh. And in the block, it's Salty Crispy. Which one are you picking? If you can only pick one, sugar goopy or salty crispy, what's your poison?

So this is like the age-old question. You know me well enough. A tale for our time. It is. You know me well enough to know my preferred path, which is to constantly rotate between the two. Mm-hmm. Hopefully it's almost in the same bite. Yeah, like have a bowl of Doritos and then immediately follow it up with a nice, like a nice chocolate caramel or something.

And then at night, you know, I have my pint of ice cream and then maybe something salty after. So confusing. Just love to snack. If I had to choose, though, I would almost always pick salty, over sweet. I am every time salty crispy over sweet. That's what I would say. Okay. If you want, you know, send us your snack thoughts.

What are you snacking on this Christmas? Sign it with your snack. Sign it with your snack. Sign it with your snack. Sign it with your apple. Sign it with your snack. What would Henry Creel have to put in his mansion that would have you just happily chawed down and not worrying about any ominous monologues that he's giving about the darkness or, you know, etc., etc.

Hoppuss and Dragons to Gmail.com. Okay. At this point, you know what the release schedule is, but I'll just remind you, right? We have got one more episode to go after this five through seven chunk that they've dropped here on the 25th of December. And that is the finale, which airs on New Year's Eve. Episode eight. Yeah. Surely a chunky episode.

They're also putting it in theaters. So, you know, they're really eventizing it, a real sort of like movie type experience. You're going to try to see it in theaters or TBD based on various factors? I mean, yeah, kind of depends. If it will benefit us to watch it, like, as soon as pop. You know what I mean? Like, we'll talk, let's talk about it. Something to know about the timing.

Episodes 5 and 6 are set on the remainder of the night of November 5th into, or the early, early hours of the morning of November 6th. It's still dark outside into November 6th, right? I think we missed a day when we were counting last time. But Derek shows up at the Maxi on the 5th. And so then we're like into the night of the 5th. That's what happens with like the massacre. at the maxi and stuff like that. And then now we're in sort of the wee small hours.

When Erica says when she gets to Mr. Clark's house, it's 5 a.m. It's 5 a.m. on the 6th when Erica gets to Mr. Clark House. So everything that happens before that is either the night of the 5th or into the morning of the 6th. And we get inside of chapter 6, so not chapter 5, chapter 6, we get a very dramatic chiming of the Vecna clock and then a November 6th wordmark to really ensure that we know that we are on this key day that Lucas has been telling us is not only the beginning,

but it's also the end. It's also the end. Here we are. Mallory, we haven't really talked about this because, you know, we didn't do our usual sort of like back and forth, so I actually don't know. How do you feel about season five so far?

Is this middle section, does it feel typical or atypical of stranger things? Because even though we've had a divided season in season four, we've never had like sort of a middle chunk taken out and just sort of delivered us without like a big sort of finale.

kind of moment. So how are you feeling about this? How does this middle section feel? Does this like rollout feel right to you? How are you doing? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously like seasons one through three were binges and then season four we had the two part drop.

Yeah. So this is to you're right. It's distinct. I, you know, I'm still glad that we're getting multiple drops so that we have multiple moments to watch and share together and distinguish. discuss together and speculate and theorize together, both, you know, us here on the pod and just in general, fans, I think that's vastly preferable to an alternate reality where this had dropped all at once. In terms of like that idea of a middle section, that's a good question. I guess without saying anything about episode seven, obviously, and just sticking to five and six here, I enjoyed episode six quite a bit. I do have some of the same notes that I think you have. And I think that there are plenty of things to talk through about some of the choice. the characters are making, but I did find the episode compelling in terms of like the blend of emotional character moments in certain key duos and sections of the story melded with plot.

I think overall I'm having fun with the season and enjoying the season quite a bit. I am as curious here in volume two and maybe more curious here in volume two than I was in Volume 1 about like balance across the season and pace across the season. So I will reserve final judgment until, you know, we see the finale and see how we conclude things. But I would say like overall, we have gotten a number of moments with characters I care deeply about that have moved me to tears. And so like I think already, who knows how it ends, but already I feel like we've gotten

enough stuff in this season that like will stand the test of time and really impact the lasting memories about the Stranger Think's story and the Stranger Things characters. I do wonder about a couple things. One, and this is often, this is not specific to Stranger Things, it is often the case in a story where mythology and lore is very central to our understanding of events. I'm curious to see, I guess, how that all lands and feels at the end. We obviously got a couple big updates inside of the two episodes that we're going to talk about, today, but it is less to me so far about whether each of those individual reveals, exotic matter,

it's actually a wormhole. A two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, obviously we'll talk about those things. It's less so far about whether those are like totally effective and more like I feel how many answers the season thinks it needs to provide, right? And yeah, go ahead. Well, I would say I agree with you, I feel like my main critique of what I feel like, there are two things that I think are sort of sludging down the season a little bit. What I was say, high highs. Like, these big emotional moments are kind of surrounded by things that I am confused by and that sort of stuff. But then like the emotion hits and I am swept away. So it's not, I'm not negative on the season as a whole. But I think that and again, not to reference everything to Buffy, but the final season of Buffy really

had this problem where there's just like a lot of like, here's the plan. Someone gives a speech moment. So a lot of those moments I think are sort of like grinding everything to a halt a little bit. But what's clear is that they're trying to like obviously trying to explain things to the audience so the audience doesn't feel lost. But I think they're, and this might be the sort of Netflix second screen thing, but I think they're underestimating the audience a little bit in terms of like how they're over-explanning certain things. And then there's so many characters. Like there's so many characters. This is always, you know, this has been increasingly true of Stranger Things, but we're having all the characters we've had before and then we're adding in like Mr. Clark

or Vicky or whatever. You know, there's just like, or Collie, and there's just even more and even more to keep track of. And divvying up the groups is one way to make it feel manageable, but then you're like tracking a bunch of different sort of quests around various locations and stuff like that. So it's just like, like, you know, like the End of Thrones, it feels massive. it feels high stakes. It feels, I think Thrones also had this problem. And I think it's like a real reactive to the final season of Lost. You know, whenever a finale of a massively popular show looms,

the creators always think about Lost, a finale that you and I love. But an accusation that was hurled at that show is like, they never answered any questions. So then I feel like there becomes this impulse of like, we have to answer everything and make it so clear so that no one can get our ready and be like, they never explain this, you know? And so. Yes.

I understand that impulse, but I think it can just, like, get kind of sludgy, you know, here at the end. Is that makes sense? Yeah, exactly. That's how I feel, or that's my, I guess, concern. And I think it's related to the other point that you were making about the characters and just, like, pace because of this, you know, just time span of a few days that the final season is operating inside of. And this real, not just the Vecna ticking clock and the questions of end theories about time travel, but this real ticking clock. of like the end is here and we know it and the characters keep saying it. And so it's an interesting, there's an interesting bit of dissonance.

I think this really relates to what you were saying about the number of characters where something I'm feeling is that feels like a ton is being crammed into just a few days in a way that's, I don't know, even though it's the seasons have always been active and there's a key moment, Halloween or July 4th where events are unfolding. It's like, there's a lot going on inside of just a few days here. But at the same time, because of the character spread and the number of different people who we have to have meaningful time with at the end, or we want to have meaningful, we hope to have meaningful time with at the end, there's a little bit of a reduction inside of the sheer

heft that needs to be accomplished of this is the person you're going to be with and this is the thing you guys are going to talk about over and over again. So does it make sense to me that here at the end, Dustin and Steve, who've always been in a certain place, have variance inside of their relationship that is born out of the trauma they have both suffered through. Yes. Is it also true that it is slightly painful for every scene that they've been in together until a breakthrough, which I'm excited to talk about today, has felt the same? Yeah, does it make sense to me completely that here at the end, Hopper and L and Joyce and Will that a lot of what is happening with those characters would orient around the trust or almost impossible to suppress

desire to protect the person you love most in this world dynamic and the need to empower your child with a level of trust that inherently puts you in a position of fearing the thing you fear most in the world. Yeah, that feels right, but it is still also true that all of the conversations that those sets of characters have had have oriented around that same idea. So it's this weird mix of, like, it feels like we have so much to do, so many were at the final season of a genre show mythology questions to answer, but also a little too much repetition inside of each character set. Yeah, yeah.

That doesn't mean that's how I'll feel about it after the finale. I think that it's completely possible that that won't be the case. But this was the volume, and I think that gets to your middle volume question. I felt it inside of these episodes a little bit, even though I did quite enjoy episode six. And I just think that some of it is like, in some cases it's just like, extremely. extraordinarily successful. And then in some cases, it's just not quite clicking the way that I wanted to.

So to get to our next, you know, what in the stretch of season five feels most representative of what Stranger Things is slash does, which is usually just like, what's your favorite scene kind of is basically what we usually end up picking here. The Jonathan and Nancy scene, which like every person,

every cast person in an interview said, there's a Jonathan and Nancy scene that I love, which made me worry that, one of them was going to die or something like that. Instead, we get this other, I thought, completely surprising moment. Inside of a relationship that I've had trouble caring about, inside of characters that sometimes have not been like the core of my focus and stuff like that, extraordinarily successful.

Just like maybe one of my favorite scenes in all of Stranger Things ever. I just, and I will say, especially when people tell me, oh, there's this one scene with Jonathan and Nancy that's amazing. my skepticism is so up to. You're not going to get me. I'm not going to have the basic bitch answer, but I do because this is the answer. So when you take that, this Jonathan and Nancy tension, which was building since last season, right, since their separation in season four, their uneasy reunion at the end of season four.

We were curious sort of like how that was going to play out. The way that it is built up and this and then the way it comes to a head and just like this, you know, they just really gave this gift to these actors to have this scene. Natalia and Charlie did a really, really good job with this un-proposal sort of moment, really, really good. When you compare that to something like what has been happening with Dustin and Steve all season leading up to a similar, like, supposed to be, I think, similarly emotional catharsis, it was just not nearly as successful for Dustin and Steve. I think they, Dustin, I'm willing to go with it because he's a teenager and he's, you know, watched Eddie die in his arms. But I think they had to make Steve behave too far out of character in order to sort of force this acrimony into this tearful reunion. And like we all knew that this reunion was going to happen. And I should have been like prostrate on the floor with like relief or happiness or tears or whatever because when like Gaten is so good in that scene and Joe is like quite good in that scene.

But I was just like this all felt like incorrect leading up to something that didn't feel really as earned as they wanted to, especially in such close proximity, both physically plotline timewise in the episode, to the Jonathan and Nancy sort of like exquisite chef's kiss moment. So, you know, that's just sort of like sometimes it's working for me. Like it feels like they want to give everyone something like obviously something big to do here at the end. And sometimes it's hitting and sometimes it's not. And that's just, you know, that's just, that's just life, man. What do you think about? Yeah, I think that I am a little higher on the Dustin Steve literal knockdown, the knockout, dragdown fight than you are, though.

I agree with the, there is something like that a pit in my gut watching the way that Steve behaved in this episode. And I can talk myself into why, but I don't, I don't, I'm not challenging your note there, I think is completely valid. But the issue that the struggle that I had was more like the, they can't walk up half a staircase without saying something cruel to each other. The kind of like ceaseless nature of the snide insult and remark. Very funny to like stay here and play with your balls. But other than that, it's like just actually kind of really mean.

Like unpleasant to watch. Yeah, it started to feel unpleasant to watch. Exactly. From characters who, and again, I don't. It's not the same as me saying. I think that they should just always be making lightsaber sounds and dicking around with each other at ice cream parlors. I think the fact that people in a relationship that spans formative years of youth where these terribly traumatic things are happening go through some shit with each other actually makes sense. And it's an

interesting creative choice. I, when they broke completely and are rolling around the rainbow room and got to that point. And then when we hear what Dustin says, which we'll talk about more, I was pretty affected by that and it felt to me like where I kind of wanted the bickering to go all season, which was to that place that we just actually talked about quite a bit on our best fights of the century so far, Pod. It had that quality for me of like, you can hurt the person you love the most because you know how. It did give me that and so I liked it. And then the stairwell, like, I can't lose you, not you. That actually did break me and I was like crying.

I mean, game was so good. Just really. Yeah. But, and I think some other character sets delivered very, we'll talk about everything with Max and Holly in great detail, but some of what Max said at the very end to Holly, I have some notes on Max's strategy and plans throughout timing. Timelisots escape, many notes. You can't come with me. I have some notes. We have some notes on that.

But you saved me and this is in you already. It was so core to the Stranger Things experience. I love that. Even something subtler, like Mike and Elle and the conversation they had and Mike really delivered a thing that I love of like, why does someone else get to decide for us? You know, like there were little moments throughout that I'm excited to talk about that I enjoyed. All of that said, though, obviously my pick is the same as yours because I agree. I thought that the Nancy Jonathan scene was one of the best pieces of acting, writing, and emotion that we have seen in the show. it feels like the perfect embodiment of the thing that we have talked about across,

not just the season five episodes, but the rewatch, it's not a common thing anymore to get to spend a decade of your life watching characters grow up with each other, right? And so, like, I'm so excited to go through that scene in more detail, but I really agree with everything you said. I just thought it was beautiful and it felt so honest and, like, a really well-earned and rewarding thing to see between two people who, like, have made their way to each other and then grown apart, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other. And that's actually a lot harder to navigate than just like, I don't like you anymore. I just thought it was great. Or like, I'd rather be with Steve. Like, you know, like the fact that that wasn't what the answer was.

Yeah, that felt perfect. I love that. That after all our ship wars, it was like, it's actually not about Steve at all. Like, it's about me. Nancy. It was great. Kelly Taylor choosing herself. It's very important. Very important 902.0 moment for Nancy Wheeler here. I was thinking, again, we will go into more detail about this, but I was thinking a lot about Natalia and Charlie, Charlie Eaton, Natalie Dyer, who have started dating in season one,

have been together since season one, you know, like live together when they're, you know, like, you know, but got together so young. And, you know, when Jonathan talks about their trust, drama bonds, you know, essentially. And it's like, who else could understand what we've been through? You know what I mean? And that's just true of these young actors who have been together in stranger things and who else could possibly understand it.

But in what ways is that, you know, I'm not saying that they put Natalia and Charlie's like real relationship in here, but there are just like trues that are true about this experience that these actors have gone through together in shooting up into rapid overnight stardom. Yeah. that no one else could understand what they went through. And that's not to say that, like, Natalia and Charlie find that suffocating, but, like, there is just these, like, elements of we're so young and I don't know what I want.

And why should I, like, how could I possibly decide? And this is something that I'm so glad you brought up in the last chunk of episodes that you talked about when we talked about, like, the couples coming out of this, you're like, somebody has to break up because not all of these couples can have met each other when they were children and stay together. That's just not realistic. And so for them to give us that, inside of this moment, this sort of life or death, the walls are goop it in,

moment was extraordinarily good television. It was great. I feel really lucky to have watched it. Okay. Again, we're going to talk about that a little bit more in detail when we get there, but just last one at least, I'm just going to keep coming back to this. I stripped out the movie references because I think we've addressed all of that, but I just want to remind that the finale is the Defer's cited as inspirations are 16-under,

Breaking Bad Friday Night Lights. So three bangers. Just something I think about as we go forward. A lot of those have to do with like time and bitter sweetness, I would say, are sort of two things. Epilogues and also just sort of like not everyone gets a happy ending. Interesting. Something to think about. Okay.

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and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. Deep dive. Here's what we're going to do similar to what we did last time, except just like more distinctly broken down between these two episodes. We're going to go by character set basically as we

go through. That is the organizing principle. Does the organizing principle make sense to you as I laid it out here, Mallory, in the notes? Absolutely. There will be a couple times where we put a pin in something and then come back to it. Obviously, there are certain stretches where the episode's intercut. But yes, broadly, I think, clustering by location and door character set is kind of the only way to do it. Otherwise, it's going to be a lot of like, and they found a door. Next scene. Next scene. And then they through the door. We move very rapidly in and out of sequences. So yes, I think this is an appropriate way to structure

for sure. We're starting with episode five. Shock jock. Yes. Sadly, we are not getting the disc jockey literal moment that we wanted, but... Deprived, you know? We're shocking a demigorgian.

So, Joe, once again, I feel bad for the demigorgian. I do. Honestly, absolutely, I did. This is horrifying. This is the first time I felt bad for the demigorgan. And also I will say when Lucas put forth his plan, like I love this moment when the Sinclair siblings are like, we have competing plans. When Lucas put forth his plan, I was just like simply no. Very reckless. You tried so hard to, it was so hard to kill those demagogians.

Yeah. And it is your idea is to resurrect one. Don't reanimate the death machine. What? I mean, it kind of worked out for them, I guess. But I was just like, absolutely not. Anyway, we pick up exactly where we left off. We've got Will, Joyce, Mike,

and then eventually Lucas in the aftermath of the attack. Yes. We've got, you know, Joyce's reaction, Mike's reaction, his, like, gleeful run towards Will, his excitement and a real-life, honest, good sorcerer. Yep. Somebody that was interesting upon, like, rewatch, is comparing how Will talked about his,

if I just figured this out sooner, If I just acted sooner, I could have saved these kids. How close that is to Holly's specific source of shame. I was paralyzed. I didn't do anything. I couldn't save my mom. It couldn't save you, Max. When you were being strangled, I just, I'm useless.

I didn't do anything. And so this ties into something we've been talking about for two seasons now with Vecna, which is like this shame aspect, right, of how Vecna plays upon your shame. But like, how vulnerable everyone, you know, that Joyce talked about her shame of like, I didn't realize that my son was missing or, Hopper talked about his shame as it relates to the war, as it relates to his daughter and all that sort of stuff like that. So this is just like, this is in all of us. It is ready at any moment to come forth. And Vecta, it's his favorite thing to play with when it comes to this. But I thought it was

really interesting that like for both Holly and Will, I don't think accidentally, it was like a very similar strain of shame and self-rerimination inside of quite heroic actions from these characters. This is, I love this observation and I agree that this feels very consistent with how we have, like, tracked and come to understand the way that Vecta seeks to make you feel ashamed or insignificant, insufficient, and like prey on your insecurities and vulnerabilities. What I really love about it is that last thing. You said, like, I really like these moments in fandom and receiving a story where you're reading a book. and you pause after something just astonishing happens at a chapter, or you watch one episode or a movie, whatever the case may be. And the collective, the individual and then the collective response is like

celebration for some sort of accomplishment and achievement, even if the situation is dire. And then we get to the next beat, and the character in question is not in that headspace. They're like, oh no, either I didn't do enough, I should have done better, or, okay, I did this question. thing. But now what? It's not, this isn't like a perfect comp, but it reminds me a little, I think one of my

favorite examples of this, we just talked about Hard Home, so maybe that's why it's top of mind for me. And obviously when the Night King raises his arms at Hard Home, it's like pretty clearly a dire drastic moment. There's no other way to read it. However, one of the things I think undeniably that also happened after watching Hard Home is you're like, John killed a White Walker, like Valerian Steel. Yeah. Yeah, like it's sick. It's awesome, but also like we know, we have new information. And it's like there is a state of despair that we then return to about the challenge that awaits.

And so I really liked this. I liked that everybody spent the last month, basically, between Thanksgiving and Christmas rightly being like, we just watched something that was really fucking awesome when Will became the sorcerer and wiped that blood away. Amazing. And then we get to Will and he's like, I mean, this wasn't enough, which like isn't really a fair burden to put on him, but does feel very huge. and certainly how these characters would be navigating what awaits.

So yeah, I liked that quite a bit. When they find Lucas in the tunnel and he's got, you know, a wound on his chest and I just thought, you know, this moment was really funny. They're like trying to like underreact to this like gaping wound. Flesh, flesh wound. Flesh wound. Absolutely fine. Joanna, every single person who has been slashed by a demo.

A lot of people checking in. No one's checking on Ted. Can people give less of a shit about Ted Wheeler? Couldn't possibly give fewer fucks. Karen gets to play hero inside of this episode. Yeah. Ted, we don't even know or care. Nobody cares.

Is Ted alive still? We don't know. The electricity was fluctuating in the hospital, as that soldier Snidly said, tough for granny. Like, what about Ted Wheeler? Can we get a pan of Ted, proof of life, please? I told you that I was watching, like, a Nell Fisher interview where she was talking about, someone was asking her about, like, her family on the show, and they were, like, you know, working with Natalia and working with Finn and working with Kara.

And she was like, and Joe plays Ted. Like, you know, he's great. He's so funny. And then I also said you this morning, like a Ted Wheeler last night, a Ted Wheeler, like. Yes. You sent it to me at 2 a.m. Oh, 2 a.m. You send it to me at 143 a.

A really normal time to be doing anything. I sent you a Ted Wheeler edit on Instagram. And I received it with glee in my heart. There you go. There you go. Okay. Joyce, here in the tunnel section, has this idea for Will to attack Bechna. And she's very much embracing her like, I underestimated you.

I coddled you. You're powerful. Let me encourage you. she will later blame herself for that, when in her conversation with Hop, but in this moment when she calls him extraordinary, when she talks to him about Vecna underestimating him,

that that's not a mistake that she will make, all this sort of stuff like that. What did this make you think of Mallory and how did you feel about it? You know, has Tom Riedel picked up the tale of three brothers? No. Once again, the comp there,

I think is pretty apparent and difficult to ignore. I really liked Joyce's shift from I'm so afraid I'm consumed by guilt and so that only amplifies and heightens by fear and my need to like coddle out of an instinct to protect to like it is a big shift I will say but I like that it is like an active embrace of Will's ability I thought that was cool and I really thought that that end note of like that's a mistake I'll never ever made. again, but I'm willing to bet everything that he does, was a great way to sum up that, to hit on that trope, a recurring beat across stories, the villain who underestimates someone or something that is crucial to why our heroes will ultimately prevail. And not only that, but in Vecna's case, it's more active. It's like he acknowledges these things. It's not like he's like oblivious. Like, I didn't read this children's story because it's beneath me. He's like, I'm picking you because

I think you're weak. And so he's seeing something that he thinks is a limitation. And our characters can celebrate that and champion it and turn it into a, or recognize that it is a strength. That's great. And even when he later then has Will captive in the library inside of his mind palace, he's like, that's my power inside of it. You think he did something? That's my power.

And, like, is still not treating Will like the threat that he is. You know what I mean? Like cannot see beyond. Totally. Because there are, there is, of course, and we'll acknowledge is this, like, ways in which he is siphoning power. This debate about what's a wizard, what's a sorcerer, all this sort of stuff like that. But like, but also, as should always be the case of these stories, there's just like the very human connection, human community, human rooting in what matters inside of our world that's worth saving, whereas Henry slash feckna slash one wants to remake the world, right?

It seems that what is it about the Shire Hawkins that, you know, is so worth defending is something that he does not seem to have access to? I don't know, again, if Henry will emerge from somewhere inside of the vainy recesses of Vecna to come through at some point. But I just think that's kind of endlessly fascinating to me. What are you missing about the human experience or, you know, What makes a Hobbit a threat or something like that at the end of the day. Yes, absolutely. I love that. I thought also both in that Will Vecna moment that you just identified, but they're my powers, and also just in this opening stretch of like basically catching Lucas up, I thought that this fifth episode, this sixth episode, did a good job of just

kind of establishing the rules of how Will is doing this and what maybe the opportunities are in that, but also what the limits are. And then, you know, we've had a lot of the discussion. since we covered season four for the first time and then revisiting it and now in covering season five where we're like, what awaits for Elle and Will and everyone? And I think obviously, I mean, the L part of that is just the center text for L in these episodes with everything that Collie and Hop and 11 and Mike are parsing about the blood transfusions. But with Will, it's like, okay, we have this insight. I think everything, I obviously agree with everything you're saying about the core of your power

inside of you and we get another really great reinforcement to your Holly Will comp point, your larger one there, like, that's the heart of what Max will say to Holly. And that, of course, then just connects back to what we already saw with Will and heard from Robin. It's like these these beats and parallels occur across the character sets that you have, you have what you need inside of you just as like Meg does and wrinkle of time, right? Just as Dorothy does. It was inside of you all along. It's eternal. This is. It's eternal. This is. is eternal is a thing we love to see in our stories. That's paired with, okay, literally, if you're trying to tap into the hive mind, how is it going to work? And it's kind of important

for us to understand all of those things in concert, right? And so then you have this question of like, well, if there is, what does that mean given that we have like a success here, but then a failure, right? We take a step forward and then we have a setback when Will is. I would say a lot of failures for our characters. And again, this is like, this is the danger of the middle section, right? You have to fail before you succeed. Of course. Right. But like, we are making a lot of incorrect assumptions and plans that don't work out and something like that inside of this section, which I think can be like a little, a little harder, especially on the rewatch. To watch someone like elaborately lay out a plan that is not going

to go the way you think it is, is like harder to watch. I watch these episodes, I think, like, three times. It's like sort of harder to watch on the third time through or whatever. Yeah, I think definitely. I think looking ahead to the impending third volume, which, again, we have not seen and have no idea if we will be able to see before everyone else in the world sees it. I'm wondering, like, with this with Will and the setback here, with Vecna ending up, like, ensnaring Will and a trance again, it makes me wonder, like, okay, are we, is the show priming us for basically a comp to what the conversation that Max and Holly have at the end of episode six, which is like, okay,

Holly has to confront again what happened with Karen in the demo in the kitchen, and she's like, I just stood there. And then there's a chance with Max and Vecna. She's like, fuck, I just stood there again. Now, Max, of course, is like, well, knew Holly wouldn't do that. I probably would have been like, you're like a very small child, and that seems super scary. What we're going to do? Take it easy on yourself.

And she gets there, actually, but not immediately. We had the exact same reaction when she was like, you wouldn't do that now. I was like, nor should you have done it then because you were a small child, but okay. Yes. But then so we're building with Holly toward this like, Max and Holly are standing there. I can't wait for us to get to Max. Just we're looking at Lucas holding Max. Max is like, by the way, you can't come. We got a lot to discuss there. We have a lot to discuss there. But we build through that conversation in the Holly, the heroic embrace to Holly opening her own portal. It's there for her. She turns, right? And then they are both like moving in the episode ends. So we built toward, I observe a thing that I didn't think I did well enough. Then I had another opportunity and I didn't do it again.

And then my chance comes again. So like, yeah, what are we setting up with the Will Vecnav at all? And how does that balance, of course, with the L. Vecnav at all? I think also, I mean, I know we said we weren't doing Theory Corner in this episode, but I think like watching Holly traips back through her own experience with her mom, is there an opportunity for Will to, revisit little baby Will and sort of, you know, whether, you know, we had talked about this idea of time traveling back, but if it's not time traveling and it's more just like memory hopping,

which is a time travel of its own kind. We're all time travelers, if you think about it, Mallory. I don't know if you've ever heard that before, but like the opportunity for Will to see his smaller self and whatever he blames himself for to see how small he was when that happened to him originally in November 6th. Similar to, you know, what 11 went through and in her sort of regression memory work in season four. Okay. Meanwhile, in Camazots, the jarring violence of the kids being goop-fed is like so upsetting.

Absolutely legitimately, like, horrifying. And then the absolute whiplash of the idyllic lotus theater machine tranquility of Derek at all waking up in a in a sun dappled field. Yep. As Henry's like, you might not remember how you got here. It was scary, but don't worry about it. Henry here talking to them all about the evil darkness and says like, Meg, you are special, right?

Henry read literally one book and is just like using it to insource all of these children, right? But this is how he talked to 11, right? When he was like grooming 11, he was like, you're special. there's power within you. We can access it, right? And thinking about when we go back through, when we travel through Holly's memories

and we see Henry outside the window during the slumber party, Henry in the library coming out of the shadows, Henry at the playground, which we already seen him there, but we see him there again. It's just like so pedophile, groomer, stalker, like, you know, absolute blueprint

that, you know, they're obviously trying to underline this, but just sort of like this language here as he's weaving his spell around the children. We saw it work with Holly. We saw Holly sort of break out of it, thanks to Max. We see that Derek is being held hostage by something else by like a threat. But how much do you think that Henry or Vecno or one

whoever's driving the bus at this given moment believes in the evil darkness that he's talking about? this pitch that he gives them here about the world and its threat, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, I think that this, like, obviously the thing that this brings top of mind is the big speech that we heard one give to 11 and in season four in episode seven, the spider speech, you know? The, I can just make my own world speech.

And so I think, like, my read on Henry's plan, both what he stated, to Elle back in 79 and what he is is working to accomplish with these vessels here is that when he says like, this is your sanctuary, he knows simultaneously that they are pawns and tools. And also that he has enough of a warped mind that he believes his own bullshit, right? Like what did he say to 11 in season four? Everyone is just waiting, waiting for it all to be over, all while performing in a silly, terrible play, day after day. I could not do that. I could not close off my mind and join in the madness. I could not pretend and I realized I didn't have to. I could make my own rules. I could restore balance to a

broken world. A predator, to your point from a second ago. And he's talking about the spider comp, but also what you described is notable here and applicable, but for good. So he is inverting the what he thinks is the light is the darkness. He doesn't believe we hear what we heard what he said about his own parents, the kind of structure of society and rhythm of a shared life. He thinks Hawkins is, as it exists, is corrupt. He thinks humanity is corrupt. It's a disease, as Agent Smith would say. But like, or men are weak, as Elrod would say, whatever your preferred Hugo weaving role.

But like the, but my question is, do you think the world he wants to remake? is it fleshy wall force-fed goop town, or is it this idyllic 1950s heart and soul on the piano paradise?

Does he want to bring everyone on earth into an old, you know, hook you up and we're all going to stay in this Lotus Eater machine paradise space? Or is demigorgans and goopiness and all that sort of stuff like that?

Vines everywhere, blah, blah. Is that his idea? of paradise. I think the latter. I think that the way that he described what he found in that existence, what we heard him say in season four about what he saw there and the way that it made him realize that there was a different possibility for the way a world could function,

that this idea of the spider-like godlike predator for good, I don't think he has any interest in maintaining the fiction of the Creole Mansion dessert buffet. for a wider group of people. No more traditional. Just goop. Right. He's got to keep those kids calm

so that he can use them as his vessels and enact his plan so that he can bring about a domain of his design that he leads, that is crafted in his image to his liking. And so how can that be anything but dark even if it feels light to him? I thought that on the language front too,

the other thing that really struck me in this sequence was the way that he said, said to him, you, pause, repeat, you. You know, we get the W, you, you will be heroes, which. Just for one day. To take, exactly, to bastard, to invoke, obviously, deliberately on the screenwriting part here. This key, the musical note we've heard more often than any other, maybe other than, you know, you said the hopper's, like, a gym song. to invoke that language that's going to make us think about one of the anthems of the series

and bastardize the we we can be heroes lyric that has been something at the heart of watching our young kids grow up and fight off and thwart evil is I think a really like fun full circle way that's like really it roots us smartly I think in the different perspective right and so like it's a way to say to us he believes his own bullshit but undeniably that's bad. Interesting. What do you think? I don't know.

I'm curious if there's like some other layer here. I don't know. And I'm always curious like who exactly is driving the bus at any given moment. And is it always the same person? Sure. And is one part of him because he's this fractured identity. Does Henry have an idea that's different from Vecna's idea? Has Vecna fooled Henry into thinking their ideas of the same idea?

I don't, I genuinely don't know. And maybe it's just simpler than that. And it's just like I want, I want the Spider-Verse, you know, to be the new reality. I want, you know, everyone's drinking goop. You know, like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I'm curious. I'm curious if it's more complex than that.

But maybe it's just simpler than that. I mean, we only have, we only have, like, after what you and I have watched, we only have one more episode to go. And even if it's a supersized episode, like, I don't, you know, I don't know how much time we really feel like we have left, you know? Two plus hours. you know, for a finale, it's like not nothing. But I think it's, I do think that there will be,

I do think clearly the show is pointing us toward complexity in Henry's backstory. Like, obviously we get in these episodes, the memory down in the mine shaft in the cave and that line from Holly about like, is this what made Henry bad? And like, you know, introducing or reintroducing, really that question of how much empathy should we have

for the boy who became, this thing and who was, you know, part of also what we obviously reminding us of everything with the blood and with L, which we'll talk about, is like that Henry was a lab rat of Pappas too. And so that takes us back to the empathy that Eleven had for him in season four. And so I'm not, I don't dispute that that's present here. I think it is. No, I know. I think where we find the character now is that the scale has tipped too far into like my utopia is not a haven for anyone else. Yeah. I guess I feel like I don't want to close my mind or heart to the possibility that there is like some double talk going on here. But I don't have a clear answer.

I'm very open to it. I am wondering how much time we have. But obviously there are things, clearly there are things that will be revealed about Henry in the very end of the series. That's obvious at this point. And so I do think that it's very possible that we get a like opening of the heart and open. of the mind for how he got to that point. I think frankly we should. Would you say the heart and soul? The heart and soul.

Can I just say? Yeah. Few things. Like there's occasionally stranger things will be like, here's a thing you did in the 1980s. And me, I mean, this might just be like any decade experience. But I feel like I don't hear kids plunking out heart and soul on the piano as much as I did when I was a kid. And I definitely know how to play like three things on the piano. And this is the only one I ever learned.

This is the one I mastered. Like, better than chopsticks. I definitely heart and soul. Yeah. Used to play it at my cousin's house in Long Island. Did you prefer to play the top or the like, top? Or the like,

you like da-da-da-da-da? Okay. Anyway. Because that was just, I don't know how to play the piano. So that felt a little easier to make. That's why I like the other one because like you can just trick yourself into think because you're playing chords essentially.

Yeah. But it's super easy. So you're like, look at me. I'm playing chords. And not really. Okay, anyway. Holly, I just, I don't know if we need to get into it too much here because we're going to talk about her so much later. But like, Holly is even more of a main character than we even, I think, previously thought.

She's so central to these two episodes and, you know, we'll see going forward. But like, it's just as much Holly's story as it is anyone else's. And that's a little surprising to me. I'm not, like, upset about it. I think, I think Nell's really good. I think she's really good as Holly. Her American accent is very good, except for when she says Derek is like a word she has a problem with,

but most of the time she's absolutely crushing it. But I guess I think inside of a season of television, we have all these favorites that we're like wanting to spend time with. Occasionally it's a little hard for me to like, you know, see how much real estate is going to Holly. Do you know what I mean? I completely agree. I think that it's emblematic.

of the distinction between enjoying a scene as you're watching it and then panning back and thinking about where we are at the end of a 10 year, five-season show. Yeah. Where it's like, I think pretty much all of Holly scenes have been good and entertaining. I agree. And so I've enjoyed them and I will, I think, enjoy continuing

to watch Holly over the rest of the season. I'm with you that I don't think anything could have prepared me and we're the Holly Trauma Tracker duo. Me sure. I don't think anything could have prepared. me for Holly being, like, basically the main character in the final season of Stranger Things, which I think in some ways is really inspired, both in terms of what we've already talked about the last couple pods of, like, it would be really weird, actually, to get to the end of Stranger

things and have a family, like, the Wheelers, like, not brought really more actively into the story mix and just have observed in the shadows. Also, generationally, right? Like, our kids have gotten so tall and so laughably, quote, still teenagers that, like, it makes sense to bring in a crop of younger kids. I just think the equation balance is like a little often. Yeah, I do like that Holly and Derek have given us that more like early season. Oh my God, what's it like to be, you know, 11 and not 11, Jane Hopper, 11, but like 11 years old, you know, or however old you might be and like confronting these horrible things. But yeah, it is, it's a little bit

of a surprise. I will say, though, on the other side of it, if 80 to 90% of the screen time went to Derek, I don't think I would complain. He continues to delight me endlessly. And the fact that we got the Samwise Gamji in this stretch with Derek... I drop a no-ease.

Nothing important that is. I heard a good deal about a ring and a dark lord and something about the end of the world. And we just got that from Dick. Not much. Just how you want to escape, but you can't because you need any relief for us. That was delightful. Truly, delightful.

When he said he was basically best friends with Mike Wheeler. Yeah. And, like, lists all the other characters who says Mrs. Byer. This is Miss Robin, which is just, like, absolutely precious to me. Holly's saying we need dipshit Derek is what she says. And then, like, I mean, dipshit Derek showing up is saying things like you read my mind numb nuts. or he can suck my fat one about Henry as he creates his distraction is really good. When Henry catches Derek in the woods, though, Derek in the woods,

and shows him his family, the Turrambeau family. Absolutely. When he was like shifting his head around, he's like your father, your mother, I was like, he's going to call his sister a bitch, isn't he? And then he did, I was like, yeah, I just stuff. But yeah, very, very traumatic. Anything else you want to say about Derek here before we? Just that this, let's add it as a bullet point.

It's not the top bullet point, but let's add it as a bullet point on the feedback for Max in these episodes. Because I think this was crazy reckless to, and like, Holly's just trying to real-time strategize and it's all new to Holly. But like, I don't think that Max should have signed off on Derek being deployed as like a distractions they can go try to escape? I'm like, this is kind of fucked up. Not everyone is cut out to be a great leader. Yeah. And Max is not cut out to be a great leader. Holly has to like take over as leader at a certain point. So like Max comes through with a great speech when she needs to have come through the great speech. But like overall, she's like, here's the map. Derek's like, I don't even know how to read a compass essentially, which would have

been great information for everyone to have. But yeah, I agree with you. What a reckless plan. Okay. That being said, I mean, Joyce put Derek in the, you know, like, they keep putting Derek in these. Left and right. Yeah, what would Erica say about that? Exactly.

See of Erica. The Sinclair siblings have a plan, two plans, in fact. So how excited were you to hear no bad ideas in a brainstorm? One of our favorite pieces of. ringer lore inside of Stranger Things. It made me wonder if David Jacoby had a writing credit on this season that we didn't know about. We should ask Jacoby about that.

That was an absolute thrill. We've already talked about the Bugles product placement. Erica and Mike saying Wizard versus Sorcer Matters. Very funny, Erica, proving herself better than Lucas at D&D at every turn. The Shock Jock plan, which again, we have some notes about this. Robin and Will have this moment where Robin thinks Will. for saving her life. And then he thanks her for the Tammy story.

We get this sort of like true serum conversation. This revelation that Steve is the person that she came out to. And he's like, Steve, really? That was great. You know, and then we do this whole thing. And Robin does her young, young Frankenstein joke. Her eye work at a video store. Schick continues.

Anything else you want to say about these two characters in their connection here? or, you know, I continue to find Robin and Will talking about who they are and how they came to share that with other people and when to be like really moving and powerful to see. I thought that hearing Robin say, you know, sharing that part of myself with someone else. That was a whole other thing was like a good next step in their conversation with each other because. What we watched with Will at the end of episode four was a self-embrace. And now this question of what comes after. And I thought it was really cool to hear Robin because Will is looking at Robin as a character who has like, as a person who has all of this wisdom and experience to share to share with him,

which she does. But then I thought it was really amazing to hear her say to him, you're like the third person I've told. I hope to double that this year. It's like it's still also new to Robin too. and just it's another way to remind us of like how even the older kids like they're all still so young and it's all so formative and new for all of them so I like that I thought that was very very good let me get the hopper an 8 and 11 stretch which I think we should just like you know pretty much knock out here um I'm actually like quite confused about some things that are going on here

not like confuses and I don't understand but like so call callie describing this whole plot to 11, using her illusion sort of power to make it a visual presentation for 11. This all makes sense to be, Collie, being like, it's not going to be done. You know, basically, like, we have to die in order for this to be over. Sort of seems to be Collie's, like, POV or like very, especially you 11 need to die because your blood is the good, is the juice. Yeah. Hopper, this is getting ahead a little bit,

but Hoppers move from awkwardly trying to, like, connect to Collie in the car here when he's like, bitch in. Isn't that the word you taught her? Like, I remember, like, blah, blah. And Collie being, like, kind of solemnly, like, I'm a bad influence, you know? And he's like, that makes two of us. You know, he gets this moment. He, you know, I will talk about Hopper and 11 at a second and, like, hurrying her towards him.

And so, like, that's interesting to me. but, like, comes in, he interrupts this Calli and a living in conversation. Then ever after that, he, like, hates her. This child in a way, and I understand that, like, Hopper is not the most emotionally regulated person, and this has, like, consistently been true of him. Yeah. But did it feel to you, like, we missed a scene where he went from, like, trying to bond to, like, interrupting something, or is this, like, another case?

I mean, obviously, he's correct that she's, like, whispering an 11's ear of, like, like, grima worm tugging. Like, you should essentially, like, kill yourself. Like, that is kind of the vibe here. But, A, I don't know how he would know that for sure, right? He says that, right? Like, I don't know. She just talked to Elle and then all of a sudden, like, this thing changed. So, like, he's kind of, but doesn't it feel like he really dramatically and violently swinged to this hatred space?

I don't know. What do you think? So the first time I watched, I did find this a little jarring because it felt like, to your point in that, in the drive-over sequence, that he was like sort of sweetly trying to be like, I know you are. She told me about you. You're my kid and why you matter to her. Yeah. And then very suddenly he's just like in a very different. different, overt place with her.

On a rewatch, I kind of assumed that he basically, like, just heard more of what she told Elle behind the projection, or maybe just that Elle has caught him up because, like, we'll quickly see that Elle does, Mike has to prod her, but she does just tell Mike, like, this is, this kind of the math problem we're working with here. So whether he heard or they revealed it to him, I think that I agree with you that it felt a little choppy in terms of not seeing him receive that information. That said, the place that we find him emotionally and like it just the way that his like inability to maturely process his terror felt really right to me actually for

hop. I'm like, I think that the hop collie argument, I found pretty disturbing. As you know, she is a child. not the first time we have seen Hop argue with children and stranger things, certainly. I think this, like, it had a little bit of other, they're both right, they're both wrong quality that I like in a disagreement.

Like, Hop has withheld things from 11, you know, the truth about Terry being alive back in season two, et cetera. So I think when Collie wields that against him, like a cudgel, she's right to do so, and he is, of course, receiving that with the shame that, that, is warranted. I think that Collie is also right that 11 not only like needs the facts in order to fight, like just that's practical, that's smart, it's the best way to be prepared, but also that she deserves the truth about her own life. I think I think she's right about all that. But I think

then Collie swings into like, why do you get to push Jane toward this outcome? You know, why do you get to decide just as Hopp so often does? Why? Why do you? How do you? do you get to try to convince this other person, like, what is right for their life or the decision that they should make? And I think that there's a difference between eight or anyone wanting to, like, arm 11 with a clear view of the board, right, appropriate, and telling her, which is what she does here, there's only one choice and it's for us to die. And so I think that how... I'm not like, by the way, I'm not on board with Collie's plan to be clear.

No, no, of course. Yeah, yeah. Just to make that very clear. Of course. I think like hop, you know, I think that when Collie says to him, like, you know I'm right, I think that's true. I think that Hop must know on some level that if these are the facts that what Callie is saying is true. And so then that descends him into this spiral because that terrifies him. Because as we've heard him say, time and time again, I can't lose you. I can't do it again. Like, I can't lose the most important person in the world to me.

And so him behaving badly felt a little disappointing, but right. character. For sure. This is, this is hot to a T. I just felt like there was like, it felt like there was one scene missing to get me to like where he winds up, you know? Yeah. Anyway, perhaps ironic, given that right before their argument, we hear Hop say to Mike, you know, it's like there's a big piece missing, a big piece. To go back to the Hop and 11 conversation that they have before, she and Kylie have their conversation, I was curious how you, if you felt, you know, because you and I both had a similar, like, visceral dislike of the hop-death fakeout that happened in the first volume. Yep.

We're just like, they've done this before with Hopper numerous times. It feels like weird to play with emotions this way here at the end of everything. However, as we get into this conversation where 11 says, like, I saw you, you were ready to die. Yeah. I think that there's fall. it really helped me settle a bit my feelings about that moment because it meant that 11 had information that she needed to have, not just like we're trying to trick the audience into an emotionally manipulative reaction, but 11 needed to see how ready he was to die and how he withheld that

from her and how he does not treat her like an equal and how he does not share information with her. And, you know, this is information Joyce didn't have. Like, this is information no one had. This is something he was keeping hidden behind a board in his wall at his top secret cabin that nobody knows about for some reason. So like, yeah, fail safe. No one knew about it, she says.

I remained baffled as well by the cabin being like in use. It's just astonishing. But I liked it a bit more. I still don't like love it, but I was just like, well, at least it's like there's a plot reason for it. And this division, you know, once again, it is hard to watch people we like fighting with each other constantly, even though it is a normal human response and especially a human response to something as stressful as.

Again, this is a real like sort of end of series. Yeah. The threat is here from the very beginning. We know the enormity of what we're facing kind of set up, which again is like something you and I will talk about when we get to the first. final season of Buffy, but it's just sort of like, we're no longer doing the like, we go to class and then occasionally like something happens and we have to fight a monster. It's like we're just in battle mode. Right. And tension and pressure is high and relationships are falling apart. And all of it

is very human, but it doesn't mean it's like, you know, I like, I like complexity and I like conflict. Of course, conflict is a source of any. any great drama or comedy or theater or anything like that. Would you say that conflict in the human heart is the only thing worth writing about? I might. I might have said that occasionally in my life, but I still want to enjoy what I'm watching. Yeah, totally. There are stretches inside of this season where I'm just sort of like,

I'm not enjoying people constantly at each other's throats, you know? I think that the specific alchemy of stranger things was all of this happening while a couple people are at their summer internship at the newspaper or going to scoop and ice cream. Yeah, scoop ice cream at the mall and shop with their friends or go to class or Ogle the hot lifeguard, whatever the case may be. I'm with you there completely. I'm in the same place as you are with the 11 hopper thing. I similarly, and it made me think again structurally about how the show has been consumed over time. Because in past seasons, with the exception of season four and two volumes, we wouldn't have had, Stranger Things has always been designed to be consumed as a

binge. And so we wouldn't have had, we just would have plowed ahead and then we get in short order to this moment and this conversation and then possibly, and I'll come back to this in a second, future payoff as well. And it all would have felt like it was part of the design inside of the season and we wouldn't have had that. Now, I think many us, certainly many other Stranger Things fans have really longed over the years for the opportunity to- Of like a week-to-week drop or something like that. consume it and talk about it in real time, but it hasn't actually been crafted to be perceived that way. It just hasn't. So that was on my mind with this. I similarly was like, okay, L saying, I saw in your eyes tonight, I saw you were planning to die and you always were, like, hit me really hard,

and it softened me quite a bit in retrospect to that moment in episode four. I'm with you. I still felt like it was a little bit. For us as consumers, as viewers, I felt baited. still. But thinking about it through the lens of the characters in the story, it works for me now. Because for everything you said, and I think like for L too, just we spend so much time thinking and talking about what 11 means to hopper and how scared he is to lose her. And it feels important to really root us in the fact that the other part of that is true, that this is a shared love and relationship, and that it affected her deeply to confront the fact that he might be gone. And we know that because we saw, we saw her mourning him, you know, at the end of season three and then the beginning of season four.

And so, like, of course we knew that already, but, like, being reminded of what it would mean to her to lose him, I felt moved by. And not only that, but, like, that he would do that without even having a conversation with her about it. Right. That he would leave her again, you know, and, like, when he did not die, but did, you know, leave before, that was another, like, self-sacrifice play. play he made without, you know, he's just eager forever to fall in his sword, you know, and play the hero. We could be heroes. Yeah, I think to that, like, not telling her part, it makes me think of Joel and Ellie. They're like, well, we're supposed to be, what does it mean to be partners if you don't trust me? Right. And like, it doesn't mean it's wrong for you to love

me and care about me and want me to be okay. But like, then we're, that's different a little bit from the thing we say we are. Right. And I like feeling that. And I like the characters having to confront it. I think to the point you just made about the sacrifices, I liked that coming back up again to like hop's fear of losing L and desire to protect L has always been entwined with like what we heard him voiced to our guy Enzo, not actually called Enzo, but I'll insist on continuing to call him Enzo in the Russian prison sequences in season four. Like this sense that he has, we heard him say a version of this to 11 at the end of season two in the pickup truck, I'm a black hole. And everyone in my life suffers because of me. And so there's a really sad, very intense aspect of the way that Hopper

thinks about his relationships and manages his own life, where he's like, if I'm not here, maybe they won't be in trouble anymore that is like really harrowing to confront. And I think is like active text for the character that makes sense to me. The last thing that was on my mind with this seeing Hopper and Eleven talk about it was just like the setup basically, this connect to, it connects to what we were just talking about with how Hopper responded to what eight is saying to L. It'll connect to what, you know, we hear about like kind of parenting in the conversation between Hopper and Joyce, which I know you're eager to get to. But like, I increasingly think that what this is priming us for is the opposite thing happening, which is like Hopper having

to be the one to watch L walk forward down that hallway into that vault to make the sacrifice play. and see her do the thing that he did and thought it's okay to do. Theory Corner then. Yeah. Even though we said necessarily we weren't going to do it. Does this then like bump 11 up the ranks of like death stakes for you? I just... Where are you on this?

I don't know about death, but still like a sacrifice in a certain form. Death I don't think so necessarily. Given this idea of like it'll never be over, you know what this is making me think of? Tell me. My apologies, the stranger things. the end of Wicked. And this idea of like... Oh, man. Yeah. Wow. Interesting.

Disappearing. Yeah. Not actually dying. Not this is the story of us watching Eleven die. Yeah. But her not being able to be with maybe anyone, maybe just Mike. Maybe she and Mike can go where there's at least one waterfall. You know, like maybe. Or maybe none of them. But I don't think...

I don't think she dies. I don't think we're watching that story. I don't think she dies, but I think she maybe is willing to. That's, again, a very like H-P-esque. Like a fake death, hopefully not for the audience, but that... Oh, God.

Please know. Everyone else thinks she's dead and we know she's not, or something like that. You know? I don't know. I think that 11 being willing to sacrifice herself

for the people that she loves will not surprise me, if that's where this goes. I think that there's a way to do that that is not the same as 11 actually dying or feeling like she has to actually die because of what Kali is saying to her. What's the King's Cross Comp then in that scenario, right?

Like, I think there's that that's in play a little bit, but I think like what Mike says to 11, the conversation that they have, to me that feels like what the show believes is true, which is like, we don't, what? We can figure out our own way, that's what we always do. And so I agree with you.

I don't think the story ends with 11 dying. I think her being willing to is in the mix. But I think the story we're watching is a story about empowerment and these kids who always felt like they were a little bit on the outside of something to finding the strength in each other to change, to say you don't get to decide my fate. That's the story I think we're watching. I also wonder, this is something that we've theorized for, you know, since season four, I think.

but this idea of depowering. Like if her blood is so magic and special and whatever, is there a way to like vomit up whatever particles are inside of her that like, you know, happen with the demigorgian and become a regular girl and like tied up, you know, with all those questions she has about like, will Mike still think I'm special if I'm not a superhero anymore? But it would take the target off of her back

in terms of what Callie's talking about. That's number one on my predictions board. That feels most likely to me because I think it really beautifully potentially ties together. Like so many of, I mean, you've been predicting that since we first watched season four. Like, I really think that feels right. And not only is that like a pretty honestly tidy way to handle the plot aspects of this. Can't make weapons with my blood if the blood's not magic blood. Right.

When we heard 11 say to Mike in this stretch, like, you know, I'm not the, I'm not the monster and I know that now. That's real progress, but there's still one degree beyond that, which is I don't need powers to be it. I don't need powers to be a hero. I can be a hero in all these other ways, just like you guys are. Holly, the heroic, it was inside you all along. Exactly.

Let's go to Holly and Max crawling through memories. We already covered a lot of this, so I'll just sort of like zip through it a little bit, but just say, like, we manifest a door. we go down into the Wheeler basement, Holly and her pal Mary, Mary with the like always fun hair. Great glasses too. Yeah, great glasses.

Are watching Nightmare and Elms Dream Warriors, a movie that we have, that the deference have talked about that we've talked about a bunch. They're literally watching good old Patricia Arquette on the TV there. In the Hawkins Middle School library, Henry approaches Holly already talking to her

about a wrinkle in time. I just want to note that a wrinkle in time was first published in 1962. And so, like, Henry saying I love that book, which could be true. I think I was an adult when I read a wrinkle in time. You don't have to be a child who had read wrinkle in time. But I'm just thinking, like, thinking about that timeline, like, this is not a book that Henry could have read when he was very young.

Right. You know, so this is either something that he, you know, read because it was kicking around the lab or something like that or is just lying about having read it or whatever. But it's not like a... Yeah. a very legit, I read this when you're a kid, I'm bonding with you kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a great flag. I don't pop a lot of toys in the rainbow room, a lot of games in the rainbow room. Papa didn't strike me as a guy had a handout reading material full of comps for how to thwart the dark forces in your life. It's funny in this memory search, I bumped on another timeline thing, actually.

And I'm maybe I'm missing something here or this just doesn't matter, but I was like when Holly said, during the nightmare on Elm Street, the Dream Warrior's memory. She was Halloween. And I hadn't met him yet. So I'm like, wait.

She had only known, Mr. Watson has been in the kids' lives for like a couple days when the events of this show starts. Does that make sense? What a great question. I was really thrown by that. Is there any chance this was Halloween last year? I wish if that had been the case she had said, this was last year because this

I'm like this especially not that Karen couldn't have been really alarmed just to be summoned once to school to hear that your kid is standing by the fence talking to a matcher and establish the whole family knows about it yeah it seemed it seemed like this had been a protracted thing with Holly and had kind

of almost like subsumed the rest of her socializing or her life and I'm like wait it's been a day and a half or something I that was I really was like thrown by that. Maybe I'm missing something. Remind me what we're in 88. 87. We're in 87. Yeah. Dream Warriors came out in 87. So if it's already like rentable, then like, what are we? Okay. That's, that's confusing. That just gives me more questions. This is like a little bit,

again, and maybe maybe I or we are missed or something, it's entirely possible. a little giving me a little bit of the like, doesn't make sense that that was Henry Creel's age? You didn't have to say it was Halloween. Yeah. It came out February. So I guess it would be a home rental by October 87, but it couldn't have been 86.

So weird. Very, very odd. It's like an own goal. Like, why did you, you didn't have to do that? Okay, interesting. Yeah, strange. I mean, gosh. All right, then we go to the playground.

Holly's like, by the way, detective. Holly great work. Never in a million years would I be like, hey, that center panel is supposed to be yellow, not blue or gray or whatever it is. Like, great job. And then we're back to the night that Holly was taken. In this moment, when they travel through the portal into Holly's bedroom. Yes. And Holly's like, Max, you'll be able to come back with me, right? And Max is like, no, I'm going to just stay here. Like, of course I'm coming with you. Would have been a great time. It would have been a great time to be like, but we'll have to figure out our own ways home. because my body's not where your body is,

so we'll have to figure that out. Yeah, really glad you brought this up, Holly. Yeah, what a great question. This is a great question for us to talk about. A little of a piece to me with like, again, I liked Joyce saying, Will, you're the best, you're extraordinary, what you did is extraordinary. Let's throw you in, like, to the game.

But the like, stab him with his own sword, you know, one blow. I'm like, wait, why do we, what is that, where are they getting this confidence from? that we can do this this quickly. Well, this is what I mean about like Dustin's like, it's Return of the Jedi, it's a shield generator like blah, blah, and like with Dustin, he's so often right in his theories that like, you know, but he's like, I was wrong.

Like it's a real John Locke moment for him, but like, you know, it's an exotic matter. But like they're wrong a lot this season. It's interesting. Okay. Eventually Henry slash Fecta slash one shows up, Glitching through all of his various personas. Holly for the first time sees the true face.

Scary. A vecta around the corner. Very good. Very good stuff. When he grabs Max and he calls her the fox, I loved this. I love this. And then later again, you know, like talks about how to get a foxhole smoking out of the foxhole. Like just really fun stuff for an elusive redhead who has been bedeviling him in his little fantasy world.

Just like really, really good. Super great. I thought that there have been a lot of scary things this season, but I thought the glitch twirl from Mr. What's-it into blood-spattered, orderly one was fucking terrifying, and then of course we'll build toward what I would put in the running

just because this is my personal, like, thinking of young Mal. If I had watched this when I was a kid, my personal, like, this would have been the single scariest thing I had seen in the show. So far much more so than any, the back. Match of you can hear me. you need to run. That was so scary.

That was terrifying. His face veins are like warming around his face. His like rudy branchy collar blown bone stuff is like flaring out. Like flanging it out. The white eyes like the quiver. Yeah. And then the cut to scary. To Will like it's really, it's really, really good.

Like very scary, very distorting, very horriding. very horror movie great. I really, really loved it. I also thought Henry exercising Will out of his head was also, like the Get Out, Get Out, Get Out was also really, really good. And then we see the upside-down dust go up the radio tower. This show loves a snapped limb. What do we think that's about? But I got to say, I mean, Will, I'm rooting for you.

And as you say, kind of failed twice only to win the third time. sounds like a great trajectory for Will. You snapped an ankle. Like that's the best we could do. You couldn't even like take off an arm or something like that. Like the ankle snap was so tepid to me that I was just like, we could have done. I think he can regrow all of it. We could have been like a little bit more active with that.

I did. It was effective in that it led to an already very creepy stretch for Henry being even creepier as he like drags his right leg along. Yeah. But, and we got, you know, like the, even just something about seeing, because, yeah, you mentioned the crawling worms, like, on the face. And it really, I don't know, it just struck me this time how, like, it looked like they just, like, filled with blood, almost like a leech, like, quality.

You see it again when he's, like, with Will in the library. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. His face, he had a lot of stuff going on in season four, but it was never this, this thing. Yeah, it's so gross, but, like, it makes him. Rosetia is really flaring. I recommend a B3 soothing serum. Oh my God. It's like, I don't know, it makes him seem more human again to me weirdly,

even though it's heightening the like monster quality. Because, you know, you snap the leg and there's like a spatter of blood and it's like right. But yes, I'm, I thought that Will, I'm like, all right, man, talk your shit. I like it when he's like, did it slow you down? Did they get away? I'm like, yeah, flex on him, go for it. But I'm with you completely. it's like, if we have time to try to snap one thing, go for the neck.

Oh, neck. Neck. Perhaps the spy. Neckna. Yeah. Come on. I think if he's got Max in a chokehold with an arm, just lop that arm off if you can. You know what I mean?

And then he could regrow it, but he would just like be, you know, just like be one arm. I would be more impressive what will accomplished. The ankle just felt like really low stakes to me. Okay. Team Harrington slash wheeler slash Byers slash Henderson Walk into the lap, right? Okay, so we get the Return of the Jedi moment. Again, we've talked about a lot of this nastiness,

the fight in the Rainbow Daycare room. Return of the Jedi call out. Whether the shield generator stuff was true or not, doesn't matter. All worth it to call back to Steve's family video interview with Keith. This is like his one movie to go to. Yeah, it's like the one with the Danny Bears. Great stuff.

And he's like, but yeah, but then Dustin's like, yeah, That's one kid's like tracks that you, I mean, like, as you pointed out last, last section, he's being so fucking mean to Steve. And Steve is being mean to Dustin. Quite. It's really fucking tough. The Eddie, the like exposed nerve that is Eddie Munson at the core of this conflict. Yes.

Where Steve sounds petally jealous of a dead guy is like, a tough look for a guy, Steve Harrington. Really bad look for Steve. And again, Dustin is a child, Steve is in his 20s. And like, I understand, like, in your 20s, you're not like done, done growing, but like, you're better than this.

And, yeah, I just thought, I thought that was really tough. Also, but I will say, when Steve says Eddie saved no one, you co-sign? We had this conversation when Eddie made the sacrifice play in season four. We were like, but why? But did you need to? But why, actually. So I wouldn't say it.

And I certainly wouldn't say it. to Dustin, but I kind of agreed with it. There are some things you just don't have to say. That's one of them, Steve. Yeah, the Steve part of it is really disappointing and painful, and I think there's something about it that's quite human, you know, someone who has looked up to you is constantly calling you dumb and stupid and childish and a state of arrested development.

And you're like, man, like, this bond with Dustin and feeling like Dustin needed me and also looked up to me was such an affront. affirming thing and now to constantly be belittled and condescended and mocked by him feels like shit. And so then I respond in kind, which is like I agree it would be nice if he were a little bit more mature, which I get, I guess it's just a beat of when he's like, I'm going to walk away from this. Like I'm done. Yeah. But there's some wisdom in what he's saying with, I mean, even just like you wanted a fight,

you know, we talked about that a lot last time. It's not true. Yeah. It's just not how you say it. What you say, but again, there's no time for this inside of a, like, we're constantly doing these crawls and stuff like that. But what you say actually earlier is, Dustin, have you talked to your counselor? I know. I'm here for you.

I'm here for you. Like, if you need me. Like, you need to talk to someone. You're grieving. Like, I'm here for you. All this sort of stuff. I think this is both a little bit of a product and maybe a victim of not only the pace and flow of the season is we've already chronicled, but like the gap between. the seasons. I think that the fact that Dustin is still actively grieving and in this state of

despair after losing someone as important to him as Eddie is actually like a great choice that the show has made. I agree. And we talked about this last time. You had beautiful things to say about this. You shared some of Gaten's quotes about this. The fact that Dustin is not just like, I've moved on. It's like I'm carrying this and it's really, really hard for me to work through this feels not only like true to life and true to loss, but an important thing actually to show the viewers of the show. when you carry that with you for a long time. And Stranger Things has done this repeatedly, as we mentioned, like, Joyce with Bob and Max's Billy.

Like, this is a thing, you know, and your favorite Barb, like that this is, this is, you know, we don't kill people lightly. We take our time with it. But still the best when Becknow said to Nancy, like when I, when I, I don't forget, I don't, you shouldn't fucking forgot about Barb, I don't forget. It's just incredible. Incredible. Do you think Nancy went home and put a photo of Barb on her toilet after that or?

In the long history of the show, the, of Barb in the bathroom is one of the things that I'm still most shaken by. Shaken to my core. I think that the like, the way that Dustin continues to carry this aspect of Eddie's, like, the less than a gift that he gave him embraced who you are, you know, is so lovely. And like the way that that loss still consumes him, I do really like that. Like this fight was, it was painful. It really was.

I think that making Steve feel like small, worthless, dumb, bad. Everything that Steve has done to Dustin here as we talked about bad. Eddie, this is why one note I'll fire back at Steve with. Did it need to happen that way? Maybe not. But Eddie needed to prove to himself that he wasn't going to run as we talked about a lot. Season four. Rejected.

Oh, man. I know you love that one. I know you loved all the breadcrumbs. All the breadcrumbs. The giant hulks of cholera falling from the sky. I think that, yeah, I don't know, it's really tough. Especially for Steve Harrington, a character that we have so admired his emotional growth. Yes, for sure.

We so admired the way that he handled Robbins coming out, which gets referenced in this episode. Like all these things that we just like really admired him to see him really fail here as an older person inside of, you know, a front of. friendship is tough. But listen, it is. It's disappointing. Growth is not just one line forward. You know, we regress. So that's fine.

Yeah, I agree. I think that, like, the backslide actually can be compelling. And, like, for a character who, the one thing he's really always, like, feared is being thought of full or not being needed, maybe, you understand how he would be pulled back. That doesn't mean it's not disappointing to see. So, yeah, this was upsetting. The rawness and the physicality of it, throwing things. Brutal.

Two good things do come out of this fight. Yes. Comedian things. The walkie breaks. That's going to be important. And then Dustin discovers a treasure trove of scientific notes here, Brenner's notes. Brenner is artist. Beautiful drawings.

Beautiful doodles? Do you think he did, is he responsible for all of this? I don't know. Was there like a whole? team. Anyway, meanwhile, Nancy and Jonathan are having, they're talking about a team, they're talking about honesty, they're talking about the hesitation and splitting up the groups, like all this sort of stuff like that.

We get the resin dripping everywhere. We get the dead soldiers as a harbinger of what could happen to Nancy and Jonathan if they didn't figure out how to sit tight on that table and balance themselves, you know, and sort of like that. I do have some questions about this drippy Elmer's glue resin stuff, though, because like, so it hardens. Nancy had it all up in her hair I was like

The hair should just like crack off now Snap off you know what I mean And I think she would like fetching it a little bob if she wanted to But like Yeah if it like got up their nose or in their mouth Would they just like die? Yeah Should they be dead?

Well I think that I feel like their clothes should be like stiff And I think because they were just like sloshing around in it They were So that's just a question I had. Okay, anyway, this bleeds us out of episode five into episode six. The Jonathan and Nancy stuff, Nancy, Crackshot that she is, take same at the exotic matter, which, you know, both she and Jonathan say the phrase dark magic a couple times, but we get this, like,

sort of man of science, man of faith binary, right? This idea that it's like magic or it's Fechna created or whatever, and Dustin's like, no, science made this. What do you think, before we get into, again, my favorite scene, maybe of Stranger Things ever. What do you think of this sort of man of science, man of faith, just because we always love to talk about lost, like binary here inside of this moment?

I really liked this. I think that that aspect of it feels true to the show, you know, which has always been multi-genre, you know, it's always been Mr. Clark explaining. Yeah, but it's also always been science. Like, these things have had a role to play.

Actually, it's funny. When Dustin first pushed back through the door into that back room and discovered the notebooks and the pinned map and the triangle. I had a moment where I was like on the like, what are we about to watch? Genrewise front. I was like, wait a minute. Is this his map? Like, is this time travel? 100% same.

Because he's like, what the heck? I was like, did he make? Make all of these drawings. Yeah, exactly. I got really excited by that idea. And then I'm like, oh, no, the triangle, like, is different and the colors are different. They're different scrolls. And then, of course, I had the exact same journey.

Yeah, which I think they, like, probably wanted us to have that reaction. But who knows? Then I'm trying to go, like, freeze frame on the notebook. And I've got some, I have horrible handwriting. So who am I to judge? But I'm like, man, it's hard to. They want this to be hard to read some of this. Scientists is notorious.

You know, and then I'm like, all right, we've got, you think back to the, like, closed time-like curve a note on the wormhole on Mr. Clark's chalkboard and okay, like, are we, what's the time travel possibility of the wormhole? I don't know. Anyway, it's like all on my mind. And I think the fact that the exotic matter, I think the question of like, is this twist, you know, Dustin's like what's always been dead wrong. We were wrong about all of it. But an evolution in our understanding and thinking is an interesting choice to make. I think thinking about the upside down is like part of a. bridge tube wormhole thing versus just like a world that's sitting on upside down from our world

is a huge lore record scratch moment. Yeah, it's a big update. So, I mean, obviously the like wormhole stuff has been very present this season. But yeah, that's like we go back to season one and the like veil of shadows idea of how we understand this and, you know, rooted in like D&D and that language would be short. hand for how we think of all of this. So it's like in the spirit of play, in the spirit of high fantasy, but the science has always been present. All of that being here as we update the actual canon feels right. Whether people are going to be like, I'm super into like theoretical physics and

exotic matter being something I need to think about actively at the end of this is maybe a different question. Yeah, let's put a pin in this until we talk about, I think, episode seven. I have some thoughts about this. But I do think in terms of like legibility and TV making, it was so smart to have Dustin explaining while we have characters

who really care about Hopper, 11 and your mileage may very collie, are like threatened by this hole in the wall. And like this idea of getting sucked out into nothingness, right? If the bridge collapses, it will take all of us, all of us with it into nothingness and Collie and Eleven and

Hopper show us that danger. I thought that was really smart. I was a little less enamored with, if Nancy shoots that, all of us will die, being the end of episode seven, then that just like not being... I was wrong. It's actually this, says Dustin, okay.

And then, wait, I was wrong again because Nancy shot it and, like, a shockwave rippled around everything, but we didn't all die. So, you know what I mean? Yeah, it was an interesting kind of microcosm of some of what's happening in season five where it's like,

it looks fucking amazing to see the, the, the, the subtlety of like, you pan your flashlight and there's a little bit of ripple in the air to suddenly this like swirling mass of red flame and then the propulsion, the wave of surging energy and the shift into the white and the blue and then the whole and like, that moment, to your point of like the magnitude of this clarity here at the end of all things, like the moment where it's, It's fun and funny to see the beamer shoot into space, but then like to get that definitive. We're out of the phase of speculation. Right. To see the exterior of it. Yeah. Very cool.

Yeah. Of the exterior shot of like the realities with the wormhole in between. Like that was all really neat. But then there's a part of me in addition to what you said that's just like, I do kind of expect Nancy Wheeler at this point to be like shoot first, ask later. But I'm also like that's just fucking dumb. Sorry. Like, you have no idea what's going to happen if you do that.

And you're in the, whether you think it's the shield generator or not. I know Dustin's like, go destroy, but you don't know. You're at an air, like a lab. I also think, like, if you can hear someone, like, kind of yelling on the other side of the walkie, even if you can't, like, make out what they're saying. Yeah, that bothers me a lot. Like, maybe take a beat and go, like, shout down the stairwell to see if you can, like, talk. Yeah. Like, take a moment.

Nancy, I understand. Jonathan. Like, take a, you know, Nancy's just like anything to get target practice in. But like, yeah, anyway, okay. Yeah, yeah. So eventually Nancy and Jonathan wake up at a conference room, which is slowly being filled with Goop, which I don't know if it made you think of the trash compactor in Star Wars. I don't know if it made you think of like Titanic in the room filling with water or like,

pick your movie reference poison. This is a classic. We're trapped in a room and, you know, the water's rising or whatever. For sure, Star Wars trash compactor. Okay. Something about the two of them being on top of that conference table. really like paying Titanic for me. And when I was watching it with Diana, she was like, oh, Titanic, room filling with water.

So it just depends on your POV. What would the Duffers more likely reference Titanic or Star Wars? It's anyone's guess. Who's to say? Maybe Kate and Big Jim are just on your mind after Avatar Fire and Ash. Oh, my new favorite movie that everyone was really excited about my takes on. Could it be that? Here it comes.

My favorite scene of the season. Maybe of the show. Who's to say? I don't know. It was beautiful. We get honesty. I'm just going to run through the list. Interest to The Clash.

Nancy's articles. I love that. They are good. Sometimes. Amazing. Really tough. You and I are journalists. We know what this is.

Okay. Slaughterhouse five. Anna Corrida. Jonathan's lateness. Six minutes. Nancy's pink. I'm going to, I don't think he watches strangers things.

I don't think he'll listen to this podcast. Maybe people will tell them. I don't know. I just want to tell you. That's exactly the Rob Mahoney Litness witness. That's the precise Mahoney lateness window.

Nancy's pink sweater. Flushed purple. Did you excited to hear a purple palm tree delight reference? I would have appreciated a quick like that's fucked up. You know, what would Argyle say? I thought pink sweater,

I took your pink sweater and gave it to good one because I don't like pink. Like color pink. A little bit of the Jonathan I'm hiding in the woods taking your naked photo season one energy.

a bad way in an otherwise lovely scene. I think following it with I flush your weed down the toilet is like, because when he said that I was like, ugh, then she's like a flushed her weed. I was like, all doing things that isn't great. College applications.

Yeah. The trauma bond. How could anyone else understand? Quote makes me feel safe, but also suffocating. Nancy talked about not visiting California. The way that he, Jonathan said space to be with someone else,

like the look on his face I know. But then, like, I love Natalia's delivery when she was like, Steve's a good guy. Then she's like, he went six little nuggets. Like, I was just like taking me. Taking that scene, which we were all like, oh, Steve, longing to be a dad. And like now getting to rewatch it and have Nancy, like, sitting there being like, what? Yeah.

No, thank you. And now she's still very young. She wants time to figure it out. And then we get the, like, unpromoposal. He essentially says here at the end. of all things. Like, one of my favorite one of the rings lines.

Same. I loved this. It's beautiful. Like the way that they like zoom in on them and you can hear the sort of, it's like Elmer's glue but also kind of like

paper machet. Just like this very like goopy dripping slowing down around them. But if you're like drawn into the drama, you might miss that everything is hardening around them until you get the ring. toss onto the heart and resin.

But I just, I was so emotionally moved by this. The like, I loved you. I love you. I love you in return. The like forehead kiss, the like touching foreheads, which was in all the trailers, but the forehead kiss. The like you're watching, you're like, are they, they're breaking? Okay, this is a breakup scene.

This is like an un-proposal. I just, and then like the way, I'm going to cry. The way that they like, embrace so tight. tightly at the end, right? Like, we're safe. The floor is not lava anymore. The floor is solid. Like, we're safe.

They're bracing so tightly. And then the camera pulls Sean Levy or whoever. If it was Frank or Sean, I don't know who filmed this exact scene when things sort of blur together over episodes, but the pull focus, like, from them to the ring. I just, there are so many different ways to love someone. And there are so many different ways to keep someone. in your life forever. And this idea to me,

it would be very sad to me if Jonathan and Nancy broke up and she picked Steve and they never talked to each other again. But this idea of like if we go into the future, you know, if they do like a six feet under

finite lights kind of ending where we get to see glimpses of the future of these characters. I like the idea of Nancy and Jonathan always being in each other's lives even if they're not each other's romantic partner.

They're bonded forever by this time in their life and this thing that happened to them. And, you know, their shared affinities, but they don't necessarily want to be together. And that's so true and so great. And there isn't like a dumb soap opera plot twist reason. It's just sort of like very human. This idea when she's like, she's like, I hate it when you're stone. I hate it when you're drunk. We've seen both of them.

And we've seen drunk Nancy. We've seen Stone Jonathan. Why do we do that? They've been like numbing themselves to the problems. Nancy's like what we're going to fix all of our relationship problems here in the Hawkins lab. But it's like, yeah, actually. And just sort of like, yeah, what the opportunities are here for profound emotional clarity. When this is the advantage of a season where the pressure could not be higher and the stakes could not be higher and its end of the world shit.

all the time. Like, this is where it can just shine through with such clear emotional clarity and cut through the bullshit. And I just, I loved this. Jonathan just, like, really emerging as just, like, such a strong character that I am emotionally invested in. So, yeah. I beautifully said, I agree completely.

I thought this was absolutely lovely. Like, to what you were saying about the filmmaking and the story. stretch and the sound design and the pans and like the fact that we, depending on how you're choosing to watch or track the scene, you maybe lose track of how much is dripping or where are we. It's like, that's happening for the characters, too. They think they're on the brink of death. I considered it entirely possible that they were both about to die. I did. Genuinely did. And I would not, I think, have been surprised if the scene had concluded that way. and I'm glad, obviously, that that didn't happen,

but I think if it had, it would have felt like a perfect end as well. Maybe I would have wanted Jonathan right before the group claim them to say, like, Will, something about Will, but other than that, I support you no matter what, buddy. It would have been perfect. But yeah, like, I think, you know, we were saying, talking a few minutes ago about other characters, like, is there time and how much time and how do you fit all these things?

It's like, this is a reminder that the great magic, trick of stranger things has always been that they found a way to do exactly that one. It seems like it shouldn't be possible. And I loved that across these moments, the, oh, and you're always honest, the staircase exchange into this, that it's just active text. Not an A is our audience paying attention, but in a way that feels like this is why they are finally after. We were like, wait a minute.

Did they never like talk about the college thing across these 20 months of like being in what? And like, then it feels like that was held and saved for a reason because the fact that they have both been pressing that down inside of them, not only knowing how they each felt about it, but on some level, knowing also, as Nancy says, she's like, I know. Knowing what the other person thinks and feels is like it has, they've been in this like emotional pressure cooker. And I think like Nancy saying, is this a time like my sister, you know, especially on. on the heels of the like, should we bring her flowers and, oh, is this the time to try to get your girlfriend? Or like, and then Dustin called Steve out on it.

Like, the fact that Jonathan was like, yeah. Especially now. I'm scared. I'm scared. What better time could there possibly be to like say the thing that you've been afraid to say and the thing you feel most deeply? I just thought that was like really smart on the show's part to acknowledge. Like, I don't know.

Sometimes that's what it's like to be a person and navigate your relationship with someone else is that the moment that maybe seems most inopportune or inappropriate is the time where you're finally like you can. I got to, yeah, I feel like I can or I feel like I have to at last. And I just thought that this was like, again, gorgeously written and performed, so tender and so honest about all relationships, but I think especially young relationships, relationships. I mean, people are always, I don't think people ever stop changing. I think people become set in their ways, but I don't think people ever lose the capacity to change, but when you're young, you change all the time. And like, this idea that the love that you carry for someone who you've been through so much

with can be so deeply rooted, but also the way that like the lies or the moments of withholding can really build and compound over time and feel like too, like the rocks that Max and Holly can't pull down. It's like they're too big to see your way past at some point until you remind yourself that they aren't. And like the idea that, you know, the very very, you know, the very, you know, the very things that bind you, I think this most of all, like the idea that the things that bind you to somebody can, if you are honest with yourself, feel like shackles sometimes? That is like a really raw, true way to acknowledge what it's like to like love a person deeply, I think. And I think I love that. And I think, again, we love talking about the way in which this show is so good at

putting it. We've maybe had a conversation like this with someone, you know, that we care about in our lives. We've never had it while reality is melting around us because we shot a ball of exotic matter and everything has turned into a Salvador Dali painting or whatever. But this idea that like the way in which this particular substance, the way in which they've sort of decided to demonstrate this reality melting thing is like glue. I think it's just like the perfect metaphor for like this thing that bound them together but then can just trap you. You know, you can wind up like those soldiers just sort of like frozen, you know, in a scream of horror sort of situation. So I just, yes, I love that.

It was absolutely beautiful, the stark white, the blue, the score. Yeah, that's gorgeous. An incredible point about the, first of all, excellent Dalekop, and I love the glue point because, yeah, like, what does it like to feel stuck? And that you can feel that but also love someone and that those things can be true at the same time. I think also this is a great. this is a really, really deft portrait of jealousy, I think. Like, you want distance, but also you want to be chosen. Yes.

Like, you don't want the person you care about to want somebody else more than they want you, even if you're like, I need to, I love what the Emerson thing when Jonathan was like, I felt like I was doing something wrong. Yeah. Like, for doing the thing that was right for him. Like, that's just all so good. And the idea that, like, you can acknowledge that. and know that and there's a logic to it and a rationality.

And still, it's too scary to think about being without that person. It's just like, I really like, I'm really with you on what you said earlier. Like, I, we've, I've loved all the shipwore stuff and talking about Nancy Jonathan and Nancy Steve. And like, I love both Steve and Jonathan in different ways. But I was surprised, I'll say, by how, I was like nodding my head when Nancy's like, it's not about Steve at all. Like that was so, that's not necessarily, I wouldn't have predicted it ending that way in terms of that aspect of the love triangle, but that felt so, so, so right to me.

Yeah, I agree. And if I'm, if I'm like owning this a little bit, I think especially like, I talk about Steve and Jonathan way more than I talk about Nancy and I'm frankly just way more invested in both of them as characters. And this was a good, this was a really great scene, I mean, for their relationship for Nancy and Jonathan, but for Nancy to be like, I'm, Like, I'm really young and I don't know what I want. And, like, I want to, boy, I was hoping I would have the time to figure that out. Yeah. Just loved it for everyone. I think especially because, and we talked about this a lot, we talked about season four and the Robin, the tenuous sort of like Robin and Nancy friendship of like how disappointed I've been that like Nancy's identity is just so often like who is Nancy dating.

You know what I mean? We get a few moments like Nancy and Karen. in the kitchen that scene we really, really loved. I would love, even though, I don't know, older sister, younger brother, the ages that they are, but like more Nancy Mike stuff. Yeah. More Nancy Holly stuff. You know, like, what is Nancy's life outside of who is she dating at this given moment?

Nancy is as head of the radio station, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, I agree with you that giving her this moment of just sort of like, yeah, actually, who am I? I have been defining myself by, like, who I'm dating. I would, you know, and, like, her perfectionism as, as, you know, newspaper editor and, like, all these other things like that. Like, you know, but, but yeah, who am I? That's a great point. It's sort of like taking away in which I think they've let the character down a little bit and making it the text of the character. Yeah, exactly. Really smart. Just all we can hope for when you have this many years to make a show, you know? Yeah. All right. Um, anything else you want? We already talked about sort of like the, the Dustin Steve reconciliation moment, but there is a, you know, gate. is, I just think, wonderful.

Really talented. It's great. Obviously, always. But is there anything else you wanted to say about this moment that, you know, I know it really got to you? Anything you want to say about that? I just, watching Dustin just sob and, like, clutch at him. Yeah, just, like, fold himself into Steve and just say you can't die because I can't deal with it again, don't let it happen again. please, please don't let it happen again, not you. And so what I love about it is it's a great way

to like basically say after all of this bickering and the shadow inspector of Eddie looming large and Dustin and Steve's relationship, it's like both of all of that is here. It's like, can't let it happen again because the pain I feel for over losing Eddie is real and it's still here and it's informing my terror of losing someone else. But then the not you, it's like, what a beautiful way to remind Steve of what he means to Dustin and to remind all of all of of what they've meant to each other. So just really raw and rewarding. And like I think a big release for Dustin who has been caring a lot and not, maybe not being

invited by the people around him to share that with them or process it the way he needs to, but also like not totally knowing how to share it and process them, process it with them. So it just really, yeah, it really got me. And I'm eager to see like what else awaits for the two of them. the rest of the way here. Also, in a stretch where, as you've rightly noted, everyone is wrong a lot, including Dustin. He was definitely right about that ladder because it fell through mere moments after Steve put it there. And Steve Barrington...

20 stories, like so far down. Exploded on the floor that he finally settled on. So there you go. All right. Speaking of science-y stuff. Oh, my God. Here comes Mr. Clark. Nerd King of Hawkins. This is the best. Did we not raise this, and we talked about Mr. Clark last time, the fact that, like, you know, we saw him before dating a lady, like, what's going on with Mr. Clark's social life, his love life. And here he is. He's fucking the librarian.

And it's great. This is amazing to me. I love that, like, there may not be enough time for really meaningful, important conversations and moments and very necessary workshopping of ideas and planning. Yeah. But there is time to show us one more time and remind you. mind us one more time that Mr. Clark is chief stickman in August. Honestly, I had it written down in my notes. Is Mallory going to say stick man when it comes in.

You hate it when I say stickman. In this case, I think it is appropriate. It's just the best when he's also. This is like a real like we got rewarded. Like we get the moment with Mr. Clark, you know, we'd seen him like, oh, you're over here. You're watching the thing. I'm telling you how they did the like effects and everything.

But we also got another classic Murray can't help but make people uncomfortable. And he's like, you can't too loud in the sack. She shushed you. Yeah. Great stuff. You know, she calls him schookums. He calls her sugar lump. And it's very clear.

Like, I think he knows how to find her sugar lump, you know? Mr. Clark, getting it done. You're a very special person. I'll take stick man over sugar lump as a euphemism for the clit. any day of the week. Children, I hope you're enjoying this holiday special podcast from us. Anyway, Erica, Murray, and Mr. Clark as like a triangulation of personalities. We're lucky to be alive.

Thank you. Matt, Ross, thank you. I love that Erica gets right to the point. She's like, I know it's 5 a.m., blah, blah. You know, and Murray's like, yeah, she already said it. Like, she said that right off the bat. go, dust and danger. So more to come from Mr. Clark,

but this is our little reward for her. Eric can never miss us, as usual. Absolutely. I can't spell America without Erica. Okay, listen. Holly and Max now crawl through Henry's memories. Yes. Here's the first of many problems I have with this hospital sequence

that is going to round out the end of this episode. The implication, when Henry comes to the mouth of the cave and he's like threatening Max and Hall and he's like, Holly, I'm going to start torturing the physical body of your friend here. And if you don't want to see her get hurt, come on back to me, right? Yeah. The implication being, and as coupled with what he does with Will in the library Mind Palace, that VH1 up to this point did not know where Max's body is and has now extracted,

that forcibly extracted that information out of Will's head. And this is insane to me. that Max's, the location of Max's body is somehow a secret. She's in a public hospital. And maybe this explains why her mother has never visited her because maybe they just didn't tell her mom that she's there. But these children are just traipsing in and out of that. She's not in Hopper's unplodable cabin.

She's in the public hospital. And Vecta has to extract, I guess now we understand, now I understand why Will had to go visit Max earlier this season because I was like, this is so weird. These characters have no relationship whatsoever. But he had to extract this information. Now he's like, ah, at last, I know where your body is. Like, are you with me bumping on this?

I thought this was absolutely bonkers. I don't know how. I can't wrap my mind around this at all. He was actively stalking a number of children in Hawkins. He's not been like just Vecta licking his wounds this whole time. He's been grooming multiple 9- and 10-year-old children. he's in boots on the ground in Hawkins. There's no way he wouldn't know where Max is.

This does not make any sense. It's also like, you know, like the bronze in Sunnydale equivalent. There's not that much in Hawkins. There aren't in that many places to check. Right. And like he's pursuing Max in the memory of my palace, so he knows Max is not dead. The Fox is here. Yeah.

Like her consciousness is present in this, in this. prison in Camazott. So, like, there's not an explanation that's like, oh, shit, he didn't know that Max was out there. So the only question is, like, how could he not find her? And the absolute only thing, I would love to hear from the bad babies if we've missed something obvious or if people have theories, the only thing I can think of. Because I also thought this was inexplicable and frankly, like, honestly, like pretty lame here at the end. And it's just pretty lame for like a major plot development to hinge on something that's like, that just doesn't seem reasonable. Reasonable. Yeah.

The only thing I can think of is that because of what happened with 11 and Max, in the like maybe resurrection, she's like shielded in some way that we don't know about yet. That is the only thing I can come up with. I needed them to have, like, said that somehow. Yeah. I needed someone at some point to say 11 or some indication. I know what? I'm not sure that 11 has, like, yet copped to the fact that she, like, resurrected Max because she wasn't copping to that at the end of the season four. So, like, and that's still just lurking out there this idea that 11 can, like, resurrect people.

So that's interesting. But, like, I don't know. I found this stunningly clumsy. Very, very, very strange. Really bad. I'm with you completely. Very strange. And that being said, Holly and Max have this great conversation in the cave where Holly's, like, you know, don't just.

You know, you got a theory. Give me your theories. Okay. Did you search all every inch of that? That's a no. Let's go. Like, great stuff from Holly. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the thing that everything with the spyglass reminded me of

was the Sith Wayfighter from Rise of Scott Rocker. Did you have the same moment? And did you also go, why at home when this happened? Of course you know it before even asking me that the answer is yes. The first thing I wrote in my notes was just Rise of Shack. Skywalker PTSD. And honestly, like, I think that the aligning of the shape of the spyglass cap to the cave mouth so that you backtrack and fall into the mind shaft was like kind of fun.

Yeah. But I mean this, like, not hyperbolicly. And really sincerely, like, it's Rise of Skywalker is too recent as a thing that people actively despise and mock to do something that's going to remind people of Rise of Skywalker. Just don't. Just don't. I really agree. I think the setup with the cap on the spyglass was really well done.

Yes. Like, Holly kept forgetting to take it off. Like, I thought that was done, well done. When you rewatch it, when she and Max are sitting there, like, theorizing, they're, like, sort of perfectly framed in the M of the cave mouth as they're, like, looking out. Like, there's so much of it that's fun and well done and X marks the spots, M marks a spot, like all of that Indiana Jones shit, really, really fun. And unfortunately, I was thinking about the same way finder.

I just don't want to be thinking about a rise of Skywalker. Sorry, I don't. Yeah. Okay, we fall down the abandoned mine shaft. Yes. We see this guy here. We will talk about this a little bit more in stage script, reader corner at the end of the episode. But we talked about this a little bit, but anything, what do you want to say about what we see here?

So we see a, first we kind of hear, we hear some like whimpers. It's not great. Not great. There's some woodbring. Not good. And then we see a man injured. Lab coat. Yes, a lab coat.

So we're like, okay. A scientist. Right? This is the visual language of the world, but also the show. So we're like clocking that and meant to. And he is holding a briefcase that we will then, crucially, we and Holly will see Henry pick up on latch. latch, we see him unlatch it and open it in like a kind of like a cold, like someone's

being kept in cold storage fog comes out. But then we don't see in full what's hitting here. Do you think it's the embryos from Jurassic Park? Maybe the Duffer's not Jurassic Park. We'll get to that soon. But, you know, clearly we are teeing something up here for for more information to come about what Henry finds in there. So we're enticed on that front. What's in the box? We're enticed on that front. And then we have what we already discussed, which is the, uh, pain that Holly feels over what she has witnessed. Why did that man try to hurt Henry? He was only trying to help. I don't know.

Is this what made Henry bad? Very interesting question. The empathy for the villain and understanding of the origin and how a character got to that point, you know, to get back to the conversation we were having just at the beginning of the pod before we started going through all of the details. Like, I guess another thing that pops into my mind is, you know, that these characters who do have this degree or ability to feel some sort of toward Henry, Holly, 11, that maybe in navigating that balance that we're talking about earlier

where it's like how much is there to appeal to and what does that look like and what is Henry or Vecna seeking. I feel like it would be very interesting to see one of our characters bring that into the show and really try to reach him and draw the humanity out of him. Which 11 did at the end of season four. She tried. It didn't succeed. But, you know, try, try again.

Frye, fry ahead. Like, I think that I just have questions. I do have questions about this. Again, I'm on my, like, ongoing, like, what is the origin of Henry's Vectaness? Because you and I discussed this. And we talked about it a little bit in the stage adaptation spoiler section. And again, I don't want to get into it. but the stage show does have some, like,

concrete answers for this. But when, what came first, you know, the music or the misery? Like, it was, young Henry is threatened by a gun here. Like, he is an innocent scout boy trying to help a man. He's threatened by a gun. Okay. He grapples with a man who's injured,

but bigger than him. That's scary. Okay. Knocks the man out with a rock. Okay. keeps going with the rock in a way that I'm just sort of like, was this, you know, is this an innocent young boy here or is this a young boy who already had a darkness

inside of him before he even opened that case to whatever is inside of that case? Do you know what I mean? Like it's... Yeah, definitely. Is that, I mean, like, did the repeated bludgeoning with a rock seem like the actions of a scared boy

or the actions of a scared boy who has a tendency towards, as we saw later in the Huck in Indiana stretch, like torturing animals and stuff like that, you know? Yeah, no question. I mean, I think there, if you're, if you've been shot in the hand and then the person who did that to you is trying to load the gun again, the charge, the attempt to disarm, the picking up of the rock,

the whacking of the head, I'm kind of like, okay, yeah, that all tracks. But I'm, I think your question is a very good one. Like, at a certain point, the defense shifts. into maybe a relish or a loss for the violence. And that is notable. Now, like, you know, obviously we compare Vecna to a lot of different characters. Vecta and Will and Vecna and 11, most of all,

and the parallels in the comps. You know, we've talked a lot over the many pods. You want to talk about Vecna and Nancy and how they both love to shoot first-ass questions later? I mean, nobody loves to just shoot something as much as Nancy Wheeler. That's for sure. Sorry.

The like, there but for the gray stuff that we've talked about many times with 11, like, we have seen 11 snap people's necks without hesitation. Like the body count there and the extent of the violence is pretty supreme. But, you know, I think you could always in every moment justify it and say it was necessary in that way to escape that quickly or protect. the people around her. And have we had a moment where we're like, wait, does she like it? I don't think so, right? The time that we got that, actually, was with Collie in season two when she was like, you got to tap into the pain and the hate and the rage.

And it's like, actually, no, we're kind of like, well, we've talked about that many, many times since. That's leading to a dark place. I forgot to ask this when we talked about the Callie section earlier, when she says I knew everything about Henry except for the fact that he was still alive. Yeah. What's your sense of the timeline there? So my, I bumped on that a little bit and then where I landed was like,

possible I'm missing something here or there's something to be revealed still. What I'm assuming now is that because in that episode, the Lost Sister episode of season two, we learned that eight and her gang are like collecting information on all aspects of Brenner's operation, you know, and they've got like newspaper clippings and files and they've hunted people down and tortured them and learned what they can from each of them. So my assumption is that this does not point to some sort of awareness that she had while she was there and more likely points to what she kind of like unearthed through her detective murders. But maybe not because

is it possible that part of why she left was that she was like an earlier target of grooming. Could be. Like, because if she's like, you have to access the anger and all of that sort of stuff, like, is that something that Henry slash one, you know, taught her? It definitely could be. It's entirely possible. In the Abandon Mind Shaft, just around the corner from Henry's origin story, Maxon, Holly, find the old red light, floaty rock, cape, bush void behind the cave did wall, and we'll come back to that in the hospital section. Yes.

Meanwhile, at the radio station, Robin, in one of, again, many. like this figurine is this or this thing stands in for this explanation moment, when are we going to use the bugles to explain something? We've already used boppers. I don't know. Robin decides to go with vinyl and demonstrates to Lucas and Mike how Holly and Max and Will could all be in the same place. Yeah.

How did this work for you and how did you feel about the fact that Robin, Kate Bushpole, obvious. The clash pole makes me think that she's paying closer attention to Jonathan Will than I earlier would have expected. And then the Tiffany poll, great guess for Holly, given her age and demo, but like still a stunning moment of clarity from Rock and Robin about what Holly's favorite record might be. That aside. Yeah.

Well, any thoughts you have about that, but then also how did this like demonstration work for you? It's hit me like a Whitney Houston Highnote iconic, you know? Very good. Robin is the best giving Rockin' Robin this like musically rooted explanation when she's the DJ I liked. By the way, I haven't said this yet, but the Kroenak sweatshirts, the Squawks sweatshirts that Dustin and Lucas are wearing. They are for sale. I don't know why you don't already have one.

So far the red. I've seen the red one. You want the blue one. I do like the red one a lot. As you know, it's not my color. Neither is blue or any other color, but red's definitely not. I'm waiting for the blue one, and hopefully once these episodes drop, it'll go up. But Lucas walked out and then, I was like, I need that.

I love a crew neck and I need that. Anyway, back to your actual question. Okay, so on the one hand, I think this is part of a proud stranger thing's tradition, the flea and the acrobat. I'm going to fold a paper plate and punch through and explain something. Frankly, in a stretch of story where we're like, exotic matter, theoretical physics, you could freeze frame breaders notebooks and try to understand this if you want, but like maybe that's going to take you to a blah place.

I don't know. We're like the show's ability to take these to present us with actual science and complex ideas, but then present them in a way that we and certain characters of the story, who maybe aren't as scientifically inclined can understand, is like an instinct and an impulse that I always like. Yes. So I thought the like their distinct records, their physical bodies, their minds, take the records out, lay them atop of each other,

put the crate on to represent the prison, and then they're going to go back and they're going to wake in their bodies. Like all of that I liked. To your point, though, about the musical choices, I think there's something, again, to that that's like a little bit of a, the show is on fast forward, like, inside of itself in a way that it like is not, it didn't always used to be. And I think the explanation is probably like,

she maybe knows what music, a like 10-year-old girl in 1987 would like. Tiffany's a great guest for Holly. I just think it's like a little weird that like we've seen Holly listened to exactly one song and that's what Robin pulled is just like a little bit of a weird moment. But it's fine. Yeah, the melting of like what characters know and what the audience knows has been a little less sharp this season than in prior seasons.

Jonathan loves the clash. I believe that. Does she know that we'll use the clash as his like anthem to keep alive in the upside down? I don't think that's, given that they're acting like they've never had a conversation before this season. I don't know why that would be true. Anyway, regardless. We are.

You know, groups are joining each other. We've got Hop and company. You already talked about this sort of Callie stuff. Anything else you want to say about the Callie Hop conversation? Or would you like to talk about Hop talking to Mike while he has his shirt off? Would you like a moment to talk about that? Do you regret already blowing the phrase Dickman on Mr. Clark when you could use it for hop? Something clicked into place for me there.

I'm not my lust for Jim Hopper as I watch him behave badly across all of these seasons. The other thing, in terms of how people look or what they're wearing, did you, Mike's sweater in this stretch? It looked to me, the pattern on the sweater looked like the TARDIS with an eye of sar on inside of it, just on repeat. Oh, my God. I'll double check that. I did not clock it. I will look back and see if I think. I don't think it actually was that. If we're doing Doctor Who meets Lord of the Rings, I would love that. That would be great. That would be great for us. Let's see. What else? We, we, we, we, we, talked about their argument already. I don't think I have anything else to add on that front.

I guess just in general on the the Cali 11 Hop, Brenner, Henry front, you know, I guess this is just like, this is confirmation of what we had assumed since we heard in season four, like, you know, it wasn't enough for him. He wanted to control me. He wanted my, you know, he started a program.

and what he said in season four, like the truth, the truth is, he did not just want to study me. He wanted more. He wanted to control. When Papa finally realized he could not control me, he tried to recreate me. He began a program, and soon others were born, you were born. So, like, you know, we've been speculating on this for quite some time, and now it is definitive, the blood transfusions.

I got plenty of comps from other stories, but when we saw Collie, like, running through the hall room after room of pregnant women being infused. And in experiments, we should note that failed, right? That's again, like we kind of alluded to that earlier, that 11, as Callie Sester, was like, the one perfect copy of Henry's power. So they'll see Kerb. The blood bags are the number eight on them. That's not what we want. We want blood bags with 11 on it. Yeah, exactly. It gave me, it reminded me of the Battlestar, this stretch where the Star buck is back on Caprica and ends up in this like birth den. Like, it's always so horrifying to see something like that, obviously. But yeah, yeah, this is, I think this is like where we thought this was heading for some time since season four and, you know, speculated on other possible paths, but that always seemed like the most likely.

So I guess K, you know, understanding what K is trying to do, that's explained now. It does not, I will be honest, compel me toward K at all. I still have no, like, emotional response to that character or plotline and think that remains like a pretty weak point of seasons four and five. The Brenner, especially, it's like, because the idea, you know, you think of how they start, the Duffer started with this, like the Montauk stuff and the idea of the experiments on the kids. That was like one of the core things they wanted to explore most. And like with Papa and Elle, like, that was so good across four seasons. And the Sullivan K. Like, I mean, Owens was good.

Owens was really good. I think Brenner and Owens are super good. And Sullivan and Kay have been like pretty pretty, pretty good. week. Yeah, it just hasn't worked. Okay. We, let's see. I'm gonna, I think we should zip some of this Will the Builder stuff and come back to it in the next episode.

Yeah. But I just, I want to really quickly say that like Will build the tunnels in his sleep stuff. I think this is like, the Duffers mentioned some season two stuff that they abandoned that they wanted to come back to here. And like, I could, I didn't go back and check, but that footage of, him like sleeping with his eyes zooming around? Was that footage we had seen before in season two? I don't think so. And I felt this felt to me like I have been studying at your knee moment for me because

the thing I looked at was his hair. And so I was like that hair, his hair feels to me in the flash of him sleeping, like not his season two hair. And so it felt to me like something they had filmed anew for this purpose. Oh, really? Yeah. That to me, like murder bangs. That looked to me like noish not, like a digital-y-dash-up and not like a digitally

de-aged face. But maybe that's easier to do if you don't have open eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Okay. Anyway. I thought that the only thing I'll say about this year is just I thought that this was an interesting moment of kind of Vecna reclaiming some control of the state of power. Because he's like, I think that just, I actually, I got to be honest, the like, you built the tunnels. I was like, is this supposed to land with like a massive impact for me? It like kind of didn't. I'm just wondering if that could come into play somehow. If he built them, can he, you know, can he destroy them? Is there a reason that he would need to?

For sure. And all of that, the hive mind connection, reminding us about the burning, the particles, who has them and them, how do we expel them? All of that feels very key for where we've been and where we're heading. I thought that just right here, like, the kind of, okay, you powered up and everybody's like, fuck yeah, but I have known that you could siphon my power. back then and I've that's part of how I used you as a tool was just an interesting way to tip the scale for a fact that they're trying to tip the scales back to him again and I think like yeah

my spy my builder thinking about like what he had yeah what billy was up to in season three all that sort of stuff okay back in the cabin we don't need to linger on this like honestly I do want to get to like the hospital stuff but yeah as you alluded to it actually frankly deeply irritated me tell me to have Jim Hopper explained to Joyce what it was like to be a parent Joyce seemed to receive it well, so like this is a me issue and not a Joyce issue, but like, Joyce expressing her doubts about like, first I coddled him, then I pushed him and both seem to be wrong. I don't know. Everything is wrong that I do. Like, that's all very human and natural to feel. I was just like watching and I was like, you know, Joyce raised an entire Jonathan Byers in Will. She's had so much more experience being apparent than Hopper. So Hopper being like, that's the thing about being apparent to Joy. I was like, what are you talking about, Jim? Your track record as a dad is not one that I would look up to. So this is like a thing that I bumped on that I acknowledge might just be a me issue.

But I was just like, this was really bizarre to me. I don't know. I, I, obviously this is not the first moment where like their respective experiences or are shared with each other to kind of help one of them break through. And then maybe one of them pushes forward to one of them slides. back. But, you know, I thought that the look on Hopps' faces, Joyce was saying, like, I started thinking that maybe all this time I've been trying so hard to protect him, I've really just been holding him back. Like, the way that he's clocking and kind of having to acknowledge,

his own behavior there, and then, you know, is able to say basically, like, it made me think a little bit the, you know, the constant reminder part, like, that every choice you've made has been wrong with a smile on his face was like, she was reminded. She was actually providing an insight to him in that moment. And then because of that, he was able to almost tap into a little bit of the season three letter. Like, remember the pain, the pain is good. It means you're out of that cave idea of like if things are going wrong and you're suffering. Like the only way that you can lament mistakes you've made with somebody is if you had that person in your life.

And you got to share something with them for however long you shared it with them. So I did not bump on it. That's a nice reading. I like your reading. I'll rewatch it with that reading in my life. I was just like, what do you mean the thing about parenting is? Anyway, we get the mic and 11 conversation, which you and I have already talked about. Friends, don't lie.

Can we talk about the escape from Hawkins Memorial Hospital? I would love to. Okay. HMH. I mentioned this before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slightly wrong. I just want to correct my own record and say, Hawkins Memorial Hospital is the same logo of the Haddonfield Memorial Hospital in the Halloween

movies. So just correcting my own record, I sort of bungled that illusion earlier. But Robin and Lucas show up to rescue Max. Robin takes a side quest to welcome Vicky onto team monsters do exist. How did you feel about this whole Robin, you're a drug addict side plot moment that we have here? So I found myself worried that I was about to become very impatient because we're like, this is just simply not what is happening. I think because we did not spend long. on it. It actually was not only okay, but it felt right to me that Vicky, who has had no exposure to all of this, I mean, frankly, the things that Robin

Sites was like the ground split in two and were under military quarantine, but like, by that logic, every single person in Hawkins should be like, what the fuck is going on here? Maybe they should all. But kind of they should already. What I really want is someone to have the Oz from Buffy season two reaction of like, that makes a lot of things make a lot of sense, actually. Yeah, totally. Totally. I think, like, in a, we've talked about this in the last couple of pods,

and there were many examples of that in these two episodes as well, where, like, characters who have no reason to doubt something, Max, with Holly or Jonathan saying it's as increasingly unlikely, like, you guys have seen all of the shit. There's no reason for you to doubt this at all. Vicky being like, oh, my God. And I actually thought just the performance was so tender of, like, what you're seeing on my face is anger,

but mix with concern. Because I am worried about you. I felt right. And then she very quickly because the Dema dogs attack the hospital and Mass is like, oh shit, okay. You were right. I did think the moment that Vicky

was like, do these things speak English, then this doesn't need to be a private conversation was like not only extremely useful but really funny. So great job, Vicki, welcome to the team. It was comedic, but like, are we sure? How do we know they don't speak English? You know what? Great question.

How do we know that? I was like, what do you mean? How do we know that? The lights flicker. Karen Wheeler gets involved. Yep. No one checks on Ted. Just we'll say it one more time.

No one fucking checks on Ted. And then we get, you know, something that was in the trailers that I've been anticipating, which is like Lucas has Max's, like, you know, passed out body in his arms and is running through the hospitals, and he and Vicky are, like, cowering in the laundry room and the dumb dogs are there like this is all in the trailer. I've been anticipating this. Yeah. With love and respect.

Yeah. This fucking sucked. Part of this. Tell me. Chase to the hospital, fine, great. Yeah. Look is carrying Max's body around. Fine, great.

Karen developing an instinct for grabbing an oxygen tank and putting it in a dryer and having sort of like a more scientific mind about these sort of, fine, sure. Okay. When they're cowering in the laundry room after the demigods have been like keenly hunting them through the hospital and the demigods get instantly stupid and are just sniffing around for a really long time while Cape Bush is playing out in the boombox and they're all whispering audibly to each other. And Robin's like, you have to turn off. And Lucas is like, I can't. And we all at home are like, Max almost made it before and the music stops. So we need the music to keep going.

We understand. But the demotogs are fucking right there. Yeah. Can't find the three humans who are honestly not even really concealed. I just thought this was like really poorly done. The duffers have mentioned that they love the velociraptors in the kitchen scene in Jurassic Park. They already did it once in season three in the mall. I like it too.

I'm down with it whenever we want to allude to it. The way that they timed us out just didn't work. Like the demodogs were just like got really dumb and were just wandering around for a while. Yeah. While, Max and Holly are like not running ever. They're meandering around the void. After the last time Max didn't run when the window opened up for her and then it closed before she got there.

The lack of hustle for Max and Holly was really pissing me off. And so I was just like, I did enjoy the Max and Holly conversation, and we can talk about that a little bit in a second if you want to, but I was very frustrated how sloppy this Demadog hunt and Max and Holly in The Void felt like to me, especially since we're invoking one of the best things that Stranger Things has ever done, which is Max and Dear Billy. You know what I mean? If we're going to run it back, we need to run it back better. I seem to be the only one agitated by this. Mallory Rubin, how did you feel about this? I agree on the, I mean, you know, we've already said this episode. I thought that pausing to be like, you can't come with me, and now we need to talk about why it was really confusing. And if that conversation had happened earlier,

they would not have had to pause and have that conversation there. Right. And so then maybe that would have changed how we got the really beautiful and emotional stuff that came after, which I did like. But I did bump quite significantly. on at the moment, the crucial moment of escape. Max being like, wait, you know, no. Not only like you can't come, but like,

what if the portal hadn't opened it after that conversation? Was she going to go help her? And she's like, bye? Holly being like, I don't have a boyfriend was like really funny and cute the way she said it. I don't even know Kate Bush, like all this. I don't have a Kate, like all this or something like that. I thought it was really good. Max suddenly being.

like I didn't need the music. I was like, where did this conclusion come from? And also the music is still here. Like, if he had shut the stereo off and she could still see him. And then she had that revelation of like, I didn't need the music. I just needed him. And you don't need the music. You just need a constant if you're a lost fan or a totem if you're an Inception fan,

something here that is also there. It's your Holly the heroic thing. Let's have this conversation. But her being like, I don't need the music. I'm like, based on what? The music's playing. Like, what are you talking about? Is this a lie you're spinning to Holly

so that you can feel good about leaving her here? Like, what's happening? I think in both the hospital sequence and the Max Holly sequence, it's consistent in its strength and its flaw. And that is really maybe amplified in these sequences, but a little bit of a piece with the other parts of the season so far in the stretches that it hasn't worked as well for us.

where I think there is an emotional truth that is not only like compelling or potentially effective, but really gripping for us as people who love the characters. Like Lucas, refusing to turn the music off because he's, from his perspective in that moment, with a demo drooling above his head, like, the only thing that matters to me in this world is keeping this going so that I can try to bring her back. she's coming back, that hits us in a spot that, like, is there for a reason. When in theory, the emotional truth behind Max's moment of clarity is, it could be equally forceful, where it's like, you know, she says the thing to Holly about like, and I felt it like here in my hands and I felt it here, right? And the idea that like you think in a story, in a world where the questions of like the

how and the when and the why, that there can, that you, just as she ends up saying to Holly and in a different version, like what we, what Robin and Will went through. I had it in me all along. I had it in me all along and we had it in our relationship where that really lands beautifully.

So those aspects of it, I don't bump on, but I think to your point, we are distracted from embracing that by the like botched choreography. and storyboarding, which is disappointing. I think taking a big swing on theme and emotion and missing is, like, actually a little bit less disappointing than this, which, and I didn't, I didn't, I don't, I think this, I was a little more gripped by this and I was like, oh, yeah, let's go, let's go.

And then now, like, listening to you. Like, yeah, I did think that with the, again, Max waiting until that moment and with the demos in particular, it made me think a little bit of, like, the, when they get to distracted by the laundry room and, like, the prison. the prison in season four, but, yeah, I was like, wait, I don't know, like, why are they not eating them alive? I don't, I actually, like, don't, I don't understand that and that didn't make sense. Good reason for it. Yeah, that was very strange. Unless, to your point, 11's, like, field of protection around Max. Or they don't speak English, so they couldn't understand

when it was time to run up that hill. Yeah. But now we're just writing fan fiction for the show. I just think this is a real... I love the way you put that, though. I thought this was a real failure of, like, logic and execution inside of... I care almost more than anything I care about Lucas's devotion to Max and Max's journey home. Those are so important to me. And I felt like they just kind of whiffed it a little bit.

I mean, I'm still very, like, run, Max Run, like, get home, you know, and I still think Caleb's... a performance of that emotion works. But yeah, I was just, I was bummed out by this. I was really looking forward to it. It didn't work for me, so. Yeah, it's, I thought that the Holly, we both loved the, again, this is a much newer thing for us to care about, but we both really love the Holly Mike scene earlier on the season. And so that part of it, you know, was really great.

I was like, man, Mike Wheeler. And he's just like having a very, navigating that conversation with Elle and such a mature fashion. I'm like, man, again, Mike, really on the rise in season five. So that's that's been fun and cool. And I, you know, on the, I don't know, Kate Bush or I don't have a boyfriend front. I felt that that got me too because I felt like it's we often, our formative experience with the party is that they felt like they were on the outside of fitting in, of being a part of things. And I like having moments like this where other people, Holly or someone else, would look at them and be like, I don't have what you have. The thing,

The thing that I really liked about that is that, like, I don't know Kate Bush, I don't have a boyfriend. That's very much like I'm too young to understand these connections that you have. Having that come right on the heels of them trying to get through the rock wall and Holly can get through because she's littler, she's a small. And it's like, it's like one of those things where it's like it's easier for younger, more flexible minds to get home. but has Max gotten too old to be able to travel back down this path that she was once able to? And I really liked that, I don't know if that was their intention, but I just really liked that sort of like Max struggling to get through, Holly having to pull her, the younger girl having to pull her through.

As she pulled her through, like, her depression will just sit here and wait to get rescued by 11, like, moment in the cave. And then the Max taking on the leadership role again and the older and the you can do this and we'll see how right max is and all of that because as far as we know, Holly is hooked up to a goop wall. So, like, what is she returning to? Yeah, yeah, that was interesting too. Like, you know, make your way back to the Wheeler House and we'll find you there. And it's like, well, we'll see what that ends up looking like.

But yeah, I love what you're saying because it also makes, you know, it makes us think about like, okay, well, again, so much of the season is oriented around. November 6, the day it's started, the day it's going to end. Now, I'll put a pin in this until next pod, but like I have some questions about given the wormhole. the upside down is actually like a wormhole reveal about what it means to be frozen in time in 83 and what that... In terms of when it was created. Which tells me that's when it was created,

but then I'm like... Yeah, I agree. We can talk about the earlier moments the gates of it, but we could talk about that and like how did the notebooks, which are full, like, are they frozen in time? It indicates an awareness of... Anyway, we'll talk about that maybe next pod, but why did I mention that?

I don't even remember. The idea that Henry is like, I picked Will when he was that age originally. And now I'm picking Holly and Derek and all these kids when they're that age. And he sees that as he told Will, my perfect vessels, they're weak, as like something he can take advantage of an exploit. So for that to be an edge for Holly and her not just the physical ability to get through the hole, but maybe the fresh eyes through which she looks at all of this. The tourist. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. I loved the metal detectorist and the tourist. Like that was, and that was a good way to kind of, I think, connected to what we talked about earlier, like, basically justify the amount of like a nimble. Yeah. A nimble moment of like, oh, Holly just found this and Max has been here for 20 months and she didn't find it.

I thought that was like a really nimble way to explain that. Yeah. And then the. On the dimension door front, you know, the payoff of like, I mean, yes, we did see the literal doors for the memory. But here, this felt like the real dimension door payoff of like her portal opens and she can see where her body is. And like, you know, again, very of a piece with what we've seen with other characters this season so far and in general across the show, this idea that like she didn't suddenly literally become a cleric who was like, you know, but she channeled what was inside of her and the idea that it was always there. but also Max helped her embrace it. It feels very true to the spirit of the show.

So I thought that this sequence recovered nicely in that final exchange between Holly and Max, which I was very touched by, but some odd mechanics to get us there, no question. Okay, last thing I want to say before we get to our sort of stage show script reader corner, which we can just sort of blow through really quickly, is just to let the Beiler fandom hear you,

you Mike and Will Shippers. I want to check in on this next episode. But if you have thoughts about it, you know, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com, but that is something we will talk about next time. So now is your spoiler warning. We're about talk about stuff that happens in Stranger Things, the first shadow.

Once again, a show we think everyone should have access to, but they don't. Continues to mystify, but it will inform some things we saw on this episode. So we want to talk about it. But if you don't want to hear anything about it, you can Vammuz and we will see you for episode seven

a little later. So, okay, are you still here? Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure you want to hear this? Okay, here we go. Just cave stuff, right? Okay, so basically,

as we continue to grapple with like what's canon and what's not, it's important to remember that this was staged first, I believe, in London's West End before it came to Broadway. And the version that was on the West End is different than the version that showed up on Broadway.

So they were refining canon even between the stage show presentations in London and then in New York. Once again, it's not what I would have done with my story, but this is what they decided to do. But here's the description that I pulled from a Reddit board. So I'm going to quote it directly if you have seen the stage show and you disagree with me, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com. So they don't show in the stage show what happened to Henry in the cave.

Because this whole scientist with the case thing, I was like, I don't remember reading about this on the stage show. But his mom claims he was missing for 12 hours that day. The inferred events are that Henry came across the Russian spy hiding in the cave, is that the scientist? He didn't sound Russian, but I don't know. Became infected by the stolen mine flare particles, presumably what's in the case. Yeah. Which were extracted from Brenner's father. and killed the spy, the scientist, leaving behind the empty container and Henry's spyglass.

The closest visual we get is on a wall of television screens that interface with Henry through a brain monitoring device. Henry repressed the memory, and Brenner tried to coax it out of him. The screen shows visuals of Dimension X, which is not the upside down, but maybe the place that Vecna, Henry 1, lands when L sends him through the wall. So to continue this Reddit message, implying but not confirming that Henry physically went here. Okay. It is exactly like the Target commercial with Ted Wheeler when Ted walks away. You have my attention. You pulled me back in.

When Ted walks away from the wall of television and Target, they changed to a view of the Mindflare. Now, in the Broadway version, they completely changed the scene. They actually bring Brenner's father into the room in a wheelchair. At first, he appears cooked like James' mom Terry. But then the Mindflare starts speaking through him. to Henry, and at one point, after they touch hands, a physical porter to Dimension X opens up in the room. A demigorgon even reaches through and knocks Brenner's father to the ground. The portal closes when they rip the brain out of Henry's head.

So we never see on the stage that he killed a scientist with a rock and opened a case, but it seems to connect with vaguely this story of a Russian spy with stolen particles extracted from Brenner's father that Henry then touched. and then that sent him to Dimension X where he was missing like Will was missing when he was younger. But my understanding of the stage show was that before he opened the case and went to Dimension X, he was just a normal boy. But this is my question.

The bashing of the head and the rock comes before the opening of the case. So again, was the darkness always lurking inside of Henry in some way and then just bloomed under the influence of the mind flare in Dimension X, or are we meant to view that rock bludgeoning as like a normal defense mechanism and not read that much into it? I don't have the answer, but that's the information. Okay, let me say a thing I like and then let me repeat, not for the first time in season five and certainly not for the last time, something I don't like.

I kind of like the potential for that super surer, super soldier serum comp. You know, good becomes great, that becomes worse, this is why you were chosen, what Erskine says to Steve, like the idea that many people could be exposed to those particles could be under the sway of the mind flare's influence and that it could go different ways for them. because of what is already inside of them that the mind flare is amplifying or preying upon. This feels to me like a potential reason that we are hearing Mike hammer this idea so heavily

of what is innate. So I like that. Sorcerer versus Blizzard. Yeah. I think that's potentially really rewarding. I am more baffled than I have ever been now that I'm a couple episodes deeper into the season by all of this, not like from a story perspective.

but by we talked about this a lot last time I don't need to repeal this I just do and like to be clear no shade to like anyone involved in the first shadow which seems fucking dope like I really hope we get to see it seems awesome I love the idea

of an expanded universe I'm here for that all the time as you know I love to get an origin story I love to expand I like the idea of doing that in many forms and the idea of doing it in a play is super interesting I think that between

seasons four and five of this show, revealing to a very small subset of the audience in a way that many people would never be able to access other than in spoiler sections of podcasts or wiki pages or all over fucking Instagram. Like Instagram, real spoilers everywhere you scroll, obviously the product of our algorithms a little bit, but they're everywhere.

Oh, I haven't, I'm not on that. Everywhere. It's like everywhere. And I'm like, this just, given that it seems, that this will be a very, and I don't know, maybe it's still just a couple minutes of actual story, but like, we're in the final few episodes of the final season of this show and this stuff is yet to be revealed in full. This is, I just think, a mistake, flat out a mistake. So I'm really confounded by this because, like, it does not feel the same to me as, like,

it's a source text that anybody could have picked up and consumed. That's not what this is, and I just think this is really weird. And so, like, it does. doesn't mean it won't be a good in the story. It doesn't mean that, but I just think it has led to this kind of odd, like, aspect. And we're a little in the bubble with this stuff, admittedly. Like, I'm sure there's a large group of people watching shows. I'm like, I don't know what the fuck anyone. What are you talking about? Like, calm down. You sound crazy. And to you, I say, I feel crazy because this is insane to me. I just think this is really, really weird and a little and a little bit unfortunate. And like, to the, to the own goal point, like, is it, again, I feel

a dick because I don't want to say like they shouldn't have been doing this production and people shouldn't have gotten to go see it and enjoy it and the performer shouldn't have gotten to be like employed. That's not how I feel about it. But like the sequencing of this, I just don't understand. Do it after this season as a like you glimpsed where Henry Creel came from. And now the full story. Don't you want to linger longer in in the world of Hawkins and the upside down? Ending stranger things and being like you can learn more about Bechna and Brenner and how the upside down came to be. And the mindflare. and all of it would be like so energizing and frankly a little bit of a like a balm on our aching

hearts at the conclusion of this and now instead it's like anyway rants over it's very strange you know i agree i appreciate the people who have written in about with information about the stage play uh you and i both saw a video of jamie campbell bower like showed up and did like a one-night performance as like older henry who shows up at the very end of the play and he was like very emotional about it. It was very beautiful. Like, there's, there's a lot of stuff that's going on with this play that's, like, very lovely. But Mal and I continue to be baffled by the sort of rollout of this information. I will say our listener, Yael, uh, wrote in who, who like, after listening to us is like,

I live in Manhattan, I should go to the show. So like, went to go see the show. Nice. And said, was like reassuring us in the email that we're not missing that much and said this part specifically about the caves. Yael wrote in the play, Brenner monologues and talks about Henry's disappearance slash reappearance is probably the weakest moment of the show for me in such a visual play it's an oddly still scene and since

Henry isn't sharing his own memories it all just feels very flat. On the plus side Joe, there isn't a crevison sight. Didn't have the feel of a big revelation moment I thought it would. On top of that there's so many little discrepancies between the Broadway and East End's production etc., etc.

Anyway, I thought this is really interesting. Yel also wrote this other part that I thought was really funny in their email. Yellow Road, it makes me question which, if any, is meant to be truly canon, which I just have to lean on because there's absolutely no way that Bob Newby lived through the events of this play and then had the reaction that he did in season two to all the upside downness. No way. Save for everyone else, but Bob especially, his dad had his eyes gouged out by Vecna and

almost died on Broadway and did die in London. And he's just like, nope, never seen anything. out of the ordinary my sweet little life before. So, like, that was a great little Bob Newby rant. Thank you so much for that. I mean, it's not quite like was Rodea scroll during these key moments with Tony. It's not at that level, but like, why introduced these kinds of, like, did this person, should this person have had more understanding at that moment questions at all?

Why? And I really, I second what you said about, like, I was also very moved seeing the footage from Jamie's appearance off our way. And I do really want to be clear. Like, I think people, the play existing and people loving it is wonderful. And I don't want to undermine that. You've made that so clear.

You've made that so clear. Yeah, because I'm not making the play. It sounds great, you know. It does seem great. And I have no doubt, well, I love it if we see it. But it just, like, okay, there's a version of this where all of this is revealed in the first couple episodes of the season,

and I don't feel this way about it. Because then, like, it's been established and we move up. But in this, the primary, setting for the memories has been the cave. The primary set. We have now podcasted about six episodes of a final season that is eight episodes long. We're still waiting for more reveals in this sixth episode when Holly and Max are trading theories and stuff. And Max is like, well, our memories weren't simply traumatic. They were memories of the precise moment that Henry stole our minds. And he can't steal his own mind, can he? And Holly's like, how do you know?

because that makes no sense. And everything in this place makes sense. Like, it's just pointing toward the centrality of a reveal and a significance that's like saving that for the final couple episodes of the season and the series when like some of it is accessible to the audience or it's just really odd to me. Anyway, that has been our coverage, our like ups and downs. Coverage of episodes five and six. We'll be back with episode seven. Can't wait. Genuinely can't wait.

I can't wait. Very excited to talk about it. I am, like, having a good time with this, obviously. Me too. And to my point, like, the Jonathan and Nancy scene being as good as it is will make the dumb demogorgans and the laundry room stuff fade from my memory. So, you know, and there's a lot to love and a lot to look forward to, especially if we get more Mr. Clark and Murray and Erica, which is just very important to me. Derogyn. Habits andragons to Gmail.com.

Happy holidays to everyone who's listening to this. Thank you to Carlos Chirboga for work, extraordinary work on this podcast during this holiday week. Arjuna and Gapal for extraordinary work on this podcast during this week. Jomey at dinner on for extraordinary work on the social this holiday week. We are all working through it. Cheers to you, Netflix, and we will see you soon. Bye. All pay off your home.

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