House of R - 'Stranger Things' Season 5 Finale Deep Dive

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Mal and Jo take a trip to Hawkins one last time to dive deep into the ‘Stranger Things’ finale! (00:00) Intro (04:13) Opening Snapshot (28:57) Operation Beanstalk, Part 1: Lab Edition (46:21) Operation Beanstalk, Part 2: Sending Joyce Up That Tower (01:00:51) Operation Beanstalk, Part 3: Time Travel-ish… (01:14:32) A Reminder of Kali’s Powers (01:21:20) Hopper Freaks Out (01:34:14) The Teens (and Joyce) Reach the Abyss (01:40:26) You Know Who Is Running? The Kids. (01:50:28) Meanwhile, Sigh, the Military (02:04:07) Vecna and Henry and One and Will and THE MIND FLAYER (02:19:41) The Party vs. the Mind Flayer (02:35:50) Cue the Prince (02:48:27) 18 Months Later (03:05:40) Dustin Henderson Graduates (03:16:41) Hawkins Forever (03:23:07) Hopper and Joyce Go To Enzo’s (03:25:13) I Want to Believe Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to House of Arts, a new year, but it's still us. It's 2026. I'm Joanna Robinson. That is Mallory, Rubin, and we're here today to talk to you about the end of Stranger Things. Mallory, how are you feeling about? It's the end. This is it, the finale. After all that, Straud van Dushbag just wins? No, impossible. There has to be something else. I can't wait to pod today. So many tears, so many laughs, so many things to talk about. Thank you for your patience. We'll get all. into all of that after this. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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1905. All right. So as a few messages and DMs we might have received over the past few days saying, where's the finale pod have asked? We took a couple days to process what we saw and also to me have a break. Mallory, watch all the football in the world and

we're here to talk to you about the finale in depth. That is not all we're doing this week. We're wrapping up Stranger Things. This is our final, final Stranger Things episode until the show gets rebooted in three years. Later this week, Mallory and I are doing our

part one of our Buffy Season 3 check-in. Mallory has watched all of Buffy Vampire Slayer Season 3. So here, at the beginning of the year, we're going to squeeze in a little Buffy check-in because then we are off to the races pretty soon with Nine of the Seven Kingdoms and a ton of other stuff. I am so

excited. Same. For Buffy, for Nine of the Seven Kingdoms for everything that 2026 holds for us, including a hype draft, of course. Molly Rubin, how can folks keep track of all of that? Here's what I'd recommend. Follow the pod. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can get full video episodes of House of R in the Spotify app. Incredible. You can also, I know, follow the Ringervor's YouTube channel. And while you're out of follow the Ringervorverse on the social media platform of your choosing, we are on Instagram,

TikTok, Twitter, etc. And then while you're at it, your computer, your phones in your hand, send us your emails. The inbox is always open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Thank you for all of the Stranger Things emails. Send us your hype draft thoughts, your pre-hyped

draft thoughts, Buffy Season 3. And as Joe said, we're back in Westrose and mere days. So fire up the emails. We're doing the hype draft in person this year, and I'm very excited and nervous about what that energy will be like in the room. A hype draft is always, it's about excitement.

It's we all win. We all win because we get to look ahead to all the things that we're celebrating and anticipating. Before you disappoint us. As someone who has not been in the mix in some of the big drafts that have been happening recently in the ringer, I am aware, however, of Sean Fennessey being completely normal around drafts recently, so I'm really excited to see what energy he brings to House of R in that regard. Spoiler warning today. Yes.

All of Stranger Things. That's right. Every post-episode interview is. is on the table. So, and there have been many, and we will be quoting them. Proposed spinoffs. That is kosher to talk about. Stage show, I actually don't have a ton to say about the stage show.

So if you still, like, want some mystery of the stage show preserved for you, I don't think there's anything that we need to talk about that isn't just, like, flat out confirmed inside of this episode. So we're not really going to do a stage show for Shadow section of the podcast today. But that's, is that the proper spoiler? warning, did we do it all, Mallory Rubin? I think so. I mean, as always, you know, some other stories might come up. You might hear some never-ending story mentions, some Lord of the Rings mentions, et cetera. But it's a House of

our podcast. You're probably expecting that. Do I have more than one note about the film tremors in this outline? I do. I do. And I can only view myself. Okay. Elite outline work, as always, but it was just, boy, you know, you're processing, you're grieving after the end of a 10-year experience and then going through the outline again, it's like getting to experience the finale again. It was very cathartic. My New Year's gift to you. Okay, let's go now to our opening snapshot. The Bad Babies

wrote in at length and I got to say in terms of the emails we got about the finale, were there many yes and that happens, you know, when big episodes hit. I want to say the trend though that I noticed was that we got more like dissertation

length emails than we usually get. People had, and we're not going to be reading a ton of those just because we have a lot to get through, but, like, I read them all. Thank you for sending them. You guys had a lot of thoughts and feelings, and it was just like many, many paragraphs in all of these emails. And, and, you know, people have big feelings about stranger things for good or for ill. So we will talk about all of that. I did want to hit two really quickly here at the top, because they felt very, like, House of Our proper adjacent. So I want to talk about them. The first one comes from Nicole.

Nicole had a very long email, but this was a section of it that I thought was really interesting. about why it had to be, quote, unquote, the nerds who defeated Vecna and the Mindflare and, etc. Nicole wrote, I know you feel the same, but prior to the season of Stranger Things, the most inspiring thing I watched this year that spoke to our current reality in the U.S. was and or, specifically the Gorman Rebellion arc. It prompted me to ask questions like, what is my part to play in all this?

Stranger Things, with its affirmations of all of our gifts, even the ones that society as a whole dismisses or denigrates like queerness, reminds us that we need each of us in our full power. It reminds us that each of our uniqueness works even better as a group, called to show up and fight. Even when you know you could lose, it had to be the nerds. It has to be the nerds.

So that's the end of what Nicole wrote. And I would just say, like, I agree with that. And I would just, you know, whatever your definition of nerd is, that's like sort of an expansive, I think, word that she's using here. But to mean something that, like, a quality that not everyone recognizes. as the most powerful or the most influential, but it is something that I agree and I think about a lot. Anything you want to say in regards to this email, Mallory? Oh, I mean, I think this will be a throughline of the of the pot and of the discussion of the finale. Certainly the epilogue as we

take our time luxuriating in every beat of those 40-ish minutes. You know, and I think we'll obviously talk about this when we get to Dustin's graduation speech, which was quite memorable and and certainly, like, rooted in this idea. And I think also made a point to say that part of the journey of Stranger Things was, you know, a bond that develops between somebody like Steve and Dustin. And then you get the great moment not only where Steve is hearing Dustin say that and knows it's about him, but then looks to Robin and their origin story is like, I sat behind you in homeroom and you never knew I was there. And so, like, I think the show did this really amazing thing of encouraging people to look past their perceived or real different.

and try to embrace each other and the things that you can achieve when you push outside of your typical bubble or cafeteria table, while never losing at all, it's rooting and it's mooring in this embrace of the nerddom, the party, the kids, especially, but everybody at any age in their life, who felt for one reason or another at some point, do I have a place in all this? mean, undervalued, all these other things. Yeah. And for the place to be something that you find with other people who feel that way. Yeah. And the gift that you give each other is pushing through that toward we can be heroes and we are.

It's just such a wonderfully empowering and encouraging that message. And I think like ending the show celebrating that was the only the only way to do it, the only place to be. And I think you bringing up Steve here is a really excellent point because of course Steve starts as the like, stereotypical, like, popular kid, rich kid drives a beamer jock in season one, was supposed to die famously at the end of season one. Joe Kerry, too good to die. But the qualities inside of Steve that make him a hero to the people who fall in love with that character is not that he's good. Well, yes, that he's good looking. His hair looks nice.

That's great. It's not the beamer. The beamer has been shoved out into space. He's not driving the beamer anymore. It's like it's the babysitter. It's the heart. It's the care. It's all these other.

It's the tenderness. It's the friendship. And so that even inside someone like that, you know, there are certainly like jock bullies that didn't get any kind of arc inside of this show. But even inside a character like Steve, someone who has obvious societally approved merits, there is something else that is a value that can be drawn forward. And I love that about that character specifically. Yeah, totally. Like, did Steve teach Dustin about hairspray? Yeah. But Steve learned a lot more from our party, ultimately at the end of the day. And I think that that inversion of maybe like what would be considered typical in a middle school into high school coming of age story is really something to like cherish and celebrate. So great email. And the second one, I just can't remember if we've talked about this. It was possible we have my brain is holes in it. But our listener, Billy, Our listener, Billy said, with all the superhero slash superpowers talk in the show, especially

this season, I just noticed now that Kali and L's names might be a not to Kallel. Might have been mentioned before. I don't know. Just tell me to shut up if I'm wrong. Love you guys. So thank you, Billy, for that email. I don't remember us saying it explicitly, so I just thought we should, in the post-2020 you know, being kind as punk rock Superman era.

That's right. It's good to call out Kallel, so why not? Love it. Anything else you want to say here? Lots of Superman coding. We got an overt Supergirl mention. All the kryptonite talk. It all tracks.

It's all coming together. All tracks. As we like to do, we sort of do like a big picture look at the episode. Mal and I have exchanged a few, I would say, very slight but not in-depth text. So we have not had a conversation with each other, like a real check-in with each other about how we feel about this episode. I texted you because I actually wasn't sure when you were watching it. So I just was like vague. and I just said, I liked it, I cried.

And then you were like, same, basically. So this is the moment we're going to talk. How do we feel about season five in the finale? Where did we watch it? At home in the theater? And then also I just kind of here at the top wanted to hit, like the inescapable nostalgia of our own life over the past decade reflected in the themes of this ending.

This is something that you and I talked about a lot in our complete rewatch that we did. We, of course, have been talking about, like, where were we when we want, these seasons of stranger things. Yeah. But, you know, the show has always leaned on flashbacks. I got a little irritated with it in season four when they're like, remember when

Maxon 11 went to them all that one time and we saw that flash to like a billion, bagillion times. It was a great shopping spree, though. It was really good. I mean, the fits were great. The fits were great. But inside of this episode, inside of this finale, the way in which we are confronted with how tiny they all were when they started.

And you and I were not. when the show started, but plenty of the viewers were. But it was a decade ago. I was a different person in a different place in my life. And so it is inextricable. That passage of time that we have experienced in ourselves and our lives, that investment of time inside of this world and these characters is inextricable from your reaction to the show.

And plenty of people did not like this finale, did not touch them. That is fine. Like, live your life. But the theme and the ending of the show, watching Mike pass the torch to new crop of young kids watching Finn Wolfhard as a 20-something-year-old man look down the stairs at like where he as a child started all of this. And with like, you know, the entire party in that scene, obviously crying tears, not just as characters, but as actors sort of graduating from this moment, you know, that emotionality landed so hard for me and we will talk about some

notes we might have, but I watched this at home as quickly as possible just because I knew I would be spoiled if I didn't. So even though I knew we weren't covering it right away, I wanted to just watch it, and then I closed down the computer and then I had my New Year's Eve, but like I just wanted to like not get spoiled on it. And I didn't get to watch in the theater, but we heard from a lot of bad babies who did, and we'll talk about that in a second, but like I wish I, I kind of wish I had. It sounds like it was a really magical experience for those who did. Mallory, what's your big picture taken? What was your experience watching the finale?

I think we're in very similar places with this. Like, I'm already feeling really emotional. Just hearing what you just said. And I do have a number of notes about the finale and questions about the finale, the first chunk of it, the first hour in particular. I thought the epilogue was like so good. When I saw how much time was left when we got to the episode,

I was like on clown nine. I was just like, thank you. Same. Yeah. I really liked the finale overall because the epilogue was so emotionally rich.

And, you know, hearing you talk about just like that our lives mapping on to the story. And, you know, I do like thinking about that in general. Like I've talked many times about like my first memory of, you know,

before the prequels came out was Star Wars. Like the re-release of the original trilogy. Going to see them in the theater. My dad taking me and that's just imprinted as this moment in time that started a journey for me, right? And, you know, I've mentioned before that one of the fun things to think about for thinking about my life is like, Iron Man came out like the week I graduated college. And so it's just this like journey into the next phase of my life that the Infinity saga

is a part of. So stranger things maps on basically exactly to the first decade of. the ringer, you know? And so like we've talked about this like you said, it going through the rewatch. Yeah. But just thinking back to moments of like slack blowing up with people arguing about Barb in season one and see our blog Lord just like, I got to blog this. You know, it's just such a potent memory and like talking to Chris in season three about what it was not just watching season three, but like what did it feel like when you were a kid and you were independent for the first time and your parents let you go to the mall alone? You know, there's,

There's moments that are rooted in the present moment of watching it for the first time, but then port you back to your, like, youth and that nostalgia. Most importantly, season four, because you have to cover it with me. Exactly. I'm building to it. I'm building to it. Getting to talk about season four with you in real time. And, like, you know, and doing it all again and going back on the eve of the end, like, it's just,

it's a memory I love. And it's, it's fun that people have that decade-long experience. with it and also that they don't. And it'll be a show that's always there for people to discover for the first time. I texted you the other day that like, I think honestly, mostly because we're potting about it so much recently. And my dad was, he's like, I'm going to watch. I'm finally going to watch Stranger Things.

He's making his way through season one. And he's texting me. And it's just fun. And it's fun to think about kids who will get to the age where they're ready to jump into something that's a little scary, but also a great coming of age tale. And when they watch it, what will they think? And, you know, you move further away from when it, it enters, the world for the first time, but also from the references. And that's fun, actually, and cool

because it puts them in people's lives. I don't know. It's just, it is fun to think about the experience overall. And so I'm emotional thinking about the decade of Stranger Things. Inside of this season, as an opening snapshot table center, I will say that the, what I loved so much about the epilogue, which I adored. And genuinely, I can't wait to talk about today. I think we'll both be a mess when we talk about it, it did heighten the things that I didn't think worked about the rest of the season. And we talked

about them as we went, right? But we were even, even when, I think we were obviously both higher on volume one than on volume two, but even in volume one, which had episodes and moments that we really liked it, you know, there were moments we liked in volume two, but it was like, okay, I've got some mounting worry about the

we're just in, like, and I love an action movie, to be clear, but we're like just in a, kids have formed a militia. like action movie with an unrealistic face. And, you know, so much of the season was oriented around resolving or like lingering in elements of the mythology that I then think make the like, aspect of the opening hour of the finale, like even more puzzling. Yeah. And the moments where we're like, where's Dustin's mom?

Where are the Sinclair's? Like, where are these moments where they're at school? And yet we get it. the world is about to end. We're on the clock. Literally, the ticking clock. It was, in fact, a countdown into the abyss crashing towards Hawkins. Like, I just, I loved the epilogue and I'm grateful we got it because it was a return to

form and the thing that I cherish most about the show, which are these relationships and what it means to be a young person who feels unsure about your place in the world. Because it was so good, it made me, like, long even more for more of the core of the heartbeat of the show throughout the rest of the season. And what's interesting about that, I, agree with that. And what's interesting about that is like, and I said this a couple times as we covered this final volume, this final season, but like, I am generally so anti-binge culture. And I like luxuriating in episodes and all of that sort of stuff. I think this season of

Stranger Things really suffered from the way that they divided it up. I think if we had not had to deal with volume two, which I think was pretty weak, as I made my feelings pretty clear on the podcast. If we had watched all of that and then and then had the finale at the end of that, we wouldn't have been like lingering in, in the, you know, in the weaker stuff. And so that's, you know, that's an advantage that previous seasons of Stranger Things has had. Yeah. That this season did, did not have. It sort of exposed some of the weakness of a middle of a Stranger Things arc. But I really agree. It's that data. It's, yeah, it's seeing, it's seeing this in Clares. It's seeing Mrs. Anderson. It's like, you know, it's just,

seeing Hawkins, you know, back in action that mattered a lot to us. So in terms of the theatrical experience, neither of us watched it in the theater. But I heard from a lot of people who did in my own life. And nobody up here, by the way, like, if anyone up here had been like, Joie, let's go see Stranger Things in the theater, I would have gone. But that's not, that's not what happened. But a lot of people in L.A. talked to me about it. And so our listener Devin wrote in about this, which I really liked. Devin wrote, fandom is more than what happens in your living room or what you find online. It's about being in a room full of people and listening to them laugh and cry, applaud, and cheer. It's conversations with strangers about shared

theories and excitements for what is going to happen next. It's the exhale of the friend next to you when you're sitting in a dark, packed theater, and you're both flooded with relief that Steve the Harrington didn't die. It's about looking to your left and then you're right at the diehards, the nerds, the freaks just like you, who love this thing too and knowing that you're not alone. Did we know we were in the glory days? The theatrical experience is a thing worth fighting for. Nothing else than for the fans. So that's from Devin.

Great email, as we stare down the barrel of various industry mergers that threaten the theatrical experience, I think it's worth celebrating something like this. Listening to, you know, Gayt Mazarazzo gave an interview to Variety where he was talking about how hard the Duffer said to fight Netflix to get this in the theaters, that it was like very late in the day that they were. actually got approval for it, and he was like, it kept going back and forth. They knew they wanted to do it. They were not sure if they could convince Netflix to do it. Netflix doesn't do this for their TV shows. They barely do it for their films. And I think based on, you know,

the fact that it was sold out everywhere, you had a hard time, like, even finding a screening you could go to. And yeah, that collective shared what it means to be in a room with people as they gasp and laugh and cry together, the communal shared experience. There is something that there's a version of that that hopefully we do in this pod space where like we share how we feel and you listening at home are hearing how we feel and you email us back and tell us how you're feeling. There is a communal aspect of that. But in real space, in real time, with real people with strangers in a room, there's something so strong about that that I am just like really glad a lot of people got to experience. So yeah. Yeah. It's very cool. I wish that it had been in theaters a little longer, especially given that the very very brief period of time in which it was airing on the big screen happened to be New Year's Eve and New Year's Day, which is not a time where everybody in the world is necessarily able to go see a movie for multiple hours. But I think it's super cool that the people who got to go did get that experience. And it's always, you know, again, that's something that I think makes these seminal releases and seminal moments, whether it's a huge blockbuster film or a finale or something like that. one of the things that kind of abeds itself and like your brain and your retina is like the

gasp across the theater with cap wields milnir right what did what did everybody what were they doing in their seats when they when the snap happened like it's been fun and cool to see videos of people in the theater reacting and everybody wearing their hellfire shirts and like you know it's lovely and was this a perfect season of television it was not it was not no um i think I'll be curious to see how it feels to rewatch the entire series together in the future. I think for me right now, very much in real

time, it's like, I think, easily the weakest season of the five overall. I agree. Even though it has incredible scenes and character moments, and again, the epilogue was I thought extraordinary. But to have the opportunity to sit together

or to join each other today on Zoom and then, you know, like you said, the the way that we can hopefully provide that sense of community to people with the pod. That is one of the things that I love so much about getting to make the pod. When we get to talk about it with each other, we get to tap into a remote and digital version of it, but a version of that.

And it's about the shared experience in whatever form you can get it. So I think that it's really cool this was in theaters. I wish that I had gotten a chance to see it. I do regret not doing it. But I think that all the different ways that people can not only find, but continue to like embrace the community around Stranger Things or whatever story they love. Like did people, how many people started a D&D campaign for the first time because they watched Stranger Things? You know what I mean?

It's really fun to think about little things like that. How many parties are there now? To your point about rewatchability that you made earlier, I meant to say this, that, you know, you were talking about the references. What is what's fun about Stranger Things is because it's a period piece different to the way that like rewatching Buffy feels. This will never feel dated in the same. way, right? You know, because it's not like it wasn't, there aren't references to the aughts, you know, that are that are in here. I mean, there might be, but like they're deeply embedded.

And so it's just always going to feel like something out of time, the same way that like Lord of the Rings does. And then it feels timeless. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, it's different. I saw a red carpet interview where, where, uh, maybe at the Critics' Choice Wars, I can't know, a couple days before that. Someone was asking Ethan Haw. about the finale and about, you know, about Maya and, you know, his daughter and Robin, and he was, like, getting choked up talking about it. Sure. He was like, he was like, it's so amazing.

And he was like, I've been trying to tell her. Like, it's so hard to pull off something this big, this spectacular, this full-hearted, all these things. He's like, of course, Robin's my favorite. He was like, he's like, but I was trying to tell her, like, I don't think she really understands yet, like, how decades from now this will continue to be important to people. And like, what a huge that this is going to linger and last and matter. And how huge it is that she was a part of that.

And he got choked up talking about it. And then I started thinking about, like, how when I first started watching movies, even Hawk was a fresh-faced kid, you know what I mean? So it was just sort of like these cycles and passing of torches and time. And we might not have had time travel. We had a lot of thoughts about time and a time travel of sorts. And, you know, we're all time travelers, if you really think. think about it. So don't worry about it. Two more things before we get into the deep dive,

because of course we have a lot to talk about. But we mentioned a couple times the finale's that the Duffers have cited as inspirations, six feet under Breaking Bad Friday Night Lights. And like, six feet under and Friday Night Lights being there specifically really prepared me for a chunky epilogue. It was more than I even dreamed of, but I knew that we were going to get a like, and here's what these characters did later on, because that's what those two finale sort of famously do, 6'1-200 even more so than Friday Night Lights. And Friday Night Lights especially, like, we'll talk about this when we get there, but like Steve Harrington on the roof talking about how much he loves Hawkins-Odiana was so Briggins Brothers, Texas Forever

coded for me that I like, you should have, I mean, I will always take a cowboy junkies needle drop, but like if explosion in the sky had started playing there, I would not have been surprised at all. Yeah. And then with Breaking Bad, I think there's like this, the bittersweet. of it, the sacrifice and that sort of stuff. I won't get into specifics if people have never seen Breaking Bad. But I really do see what they were sort of swinging for with all of those inspirations. And it's been really fun to hear them talk about their movie inspirations or their finale inspirations at the beginning of season and then sort of see how those pay off as the episodes

are delivered to us. And I was just like, I really think they hit what they wanted to get out of specifically, I would say, 6 Feet Under and Friday Night Lights, which is just just. just that feeling of like, are my friends going to be okay? You know? Yeah. Is their adventure going to continue in some form after this, even if I don't get to go with them on it? Right.

And I think they really did that. So, yeah. And of course, you know, we get a Philly shout out, so Pennsylvania. Okay. You're always thinking about the tailors. All right. So, I am. That's correct.

I mean, I am. Who isn't? All right. Needle Drop City. I'm just going to run through the Niels. needle drops. We'll talk about them when we get there, but I just thought that I would just mention them here at the top. We get a return of Shiboon by the cords. That's our, we're back in the Hawkins Highway hallway. We get the double hit of Prince tracks, and we'll talk about how hard the Duffers

work to get those in there, but when Doves Cry, Purple Rain. Landslide, Flewittwood Mac, ever heard of it? Here comes your man, the Pixies, the Trooper Iron Maiden as an Eddie Munson reference, Sweet Jane, the aforementioned cowboy junkies, needle drop. And then, of course, the one that Malay was hoping for heroes, but Joe Keri requested the David Bowie version, so that's what we got. I mean, with genuine respect

to the Peter Gabriel version, like to end on Bowie. Sick. It was fucking awesome. That was like dynamite. We've loved the needle tracks across the entire series. I thought that this was a relatively

needle drop light season actually compared to prior seasons. The finale I really delivered on this front. I mean, I can't wait to talk about bringing in prints at the end here. What an absolute just all-time flex. The Fleetwood Mac killed me. Yeah.

It's just like destroyed me. And the placement on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, it was just perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great stuff. Love all of this.

Let's go now to our deep dive. All right, we're starting with. we're going to go roughly chronological. We've got a few sections where we're sort of like grouping things that happens and we're not bouncing back and forth between character sets. But we're going to start with Operation Beanstalk, of course. The kids left their homework out. We're going to follow it.

So many notes for the group about leaving very visible, easy to track evidence everywhere. Take your overhead transparency with you. Just a thought. Okay. So Operation Beanstalk in three parts. And we're going to start with Part 1, the Lab edition. right? So this is where 11 Hopper, Collie, and Murray get off and

start their side quest. It starts with sort of like a Mike goodbye to 11. There will be a second goodbye in the void space. But this is one. And I just wanted to highlight it here because what he says here listen, I know this plan is totally mad and a million things have to go

right and a million things could and probably will go wrong but we can do this. I know it one last fight and this whole nightmare, it will be over. It'll finally over. I just want to put that one last fight highlight in there because Hopper says almost an identical thing to her in sort of what will be his. You have to live, and we have some questions about how that paid off speech. But I thought the echoing of the language was just like one last fight for 11.

And I like that language reiterated because when we get to her ending, there is an interpretation of that ending that the duffers certainly seem to kind of have, which is a very like... well, until he returns for Avengers Doomsday, but a very Steve Rogers at the end of end game, like, I get to go have a life, right? You know, so one last fight, and then you don't have to fight anymore.

You can go hiking in Iceland, which is I believe where they filmed that section of the episode. What a gorgeous spot, my goodness. We should go there. I really, yeah, this through line and this recurring beat, and just now, like, thinking about it, you go back, you re-watch the episode, you think about how we got to where we ended up.

And, like, there's such a bittersweet aspect to this because it's like the last fight that ends the nightmare that saves the Shire, but also their time together. But not for me, you know? And so, like, it felt like an appropriate opening note. And we're going to talk about, like, some of the strengths of many of the performances across the finale and, like, more contextually specific spots.

but what a finale for both Mike and Elle and for Millie and Finn. Like they both destroyed me a number of times, and so much of the emotional weight of the finale falls on Finn, falls on Mike, in the storyteller sequence during the D&D stretch of the really closing sequence of the entire series. And I just thought it was really great. I think this is, you know,

I think Finn was like an extraordinary child actor. And then I went, as I've mentioned, fairly cold on Mike in some of the seasons. This has been a great season for Mike, which we've talked about from the beginning. And then this finale, especially the epilogue stuff, yeah, is just like, but also like the goodbye and the void stuff also really got me. Yeah. Okay. Same. 11 hopper, Collie and Murray go into the lab.

Marie had canisters in for a second. I thought they were full of water, but it was like gas for a generator. Papa's tank is full of upside down water. and ready to go and okay, fine, sure, whatever. I will just say this. Even if water was no problem in the upside down, if like my note last time of like, hey, isn't the upside down like famously water free,

why would there be water in a tank? Also years of like sitting empty. Like I'm just, I'm confused about it. But anyway. I, this will not be, it's not the first note already. It won't be the last. note. I think, obviously, like, the response varies fan to fan in terms of the level of enthusiasm, the level of dismay in general, or the level of, like, I am emotionally raw and, like, very attached and grieving and grateful, but I have some notes out. It's a spectrum, right? There are plenty of stops along the way. I think that there are a number of, like, very legitimate questions and gripes, I think. And, like, this one, It's not something we need to linger on.

No. But I actually do think it's very fair to point to this as like kind of emblematic, the specific thing, but also like emblematic of a little bit of a loose hand with the canon in the final season. Lose hand is such a good way to reference it. I really agree. You know, it's just sort of like they're like, it reminded me, it gives me like end of thrones PTSD where like, you know, there would be like throne's directors who would give

interviews and be like, no one really cares about that. And I'm like, it's my literal job to care about this about how long it takes to get from point A to point B or whatever the case. Maybe. Yeah, Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet is like a great meme that we still love, but like actually made me want to die. Right. Die when it happened. And there are so many other examples we can list for. I've heard some people like accuse certain generations or certain fandoms or whatever of just wanting to nitpick.

And certainly, like inside of any big finale of a big show, there is a real. reaction that can just be snarky dismissal, and that's like fine. That's not what we're here to do today. I think there can be a coping mechanism of like, but what about, you know, is part of a like, I'm not finished with this story. And so I have lingering questions that you didn't answer, but what about this, but what about that? And I agree with you where I just feel like the duffers, so in pursuit of the larger emotional truth, they hop skipped and jumped over some logical things. Henry's age being one of them, et cetera, et cetera,

all this sort of stuff. I said, you just said we don't need to linger along. We are lingering here, but I just want to say, like, I would do some lingering today. I would rather the priority be the emotional truth than tick every logical box personally. It's okay if that's not true for you, but for me personally, that's where the balance lies.

No question. Obviously, I agree. That's just something that I think part of the reason we love talking about stories together is because that's kind of like a fundamental rooting principle for both of us and how we form attachments to the worlds that we love. So if I had to pick, I would always pick the character arc, the character journey, the relationships. I think that as we, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of hours from both of us on the internet about the End of Thrones

and how that specifically, among many other things, was devastating. I just like, I can still feel like the way that I could actually have cried on plenty of pause, but couldn't control my emotions talking about like what a catastrophic foundational failure it was to like

fuck up John and ghost, for example, right? You know, and like on and on the list goes. So no question. I think it is, also true that too often in, I think especially like the modern streaming era, it feels like there has to be this choice that's like, yeah, you know, oh, well, is there room for, you know, and so much of the like style over substance, the spectacle over the heart was the downfall of

the final season of Thrones. And that's why part, one of the many reasons were both so partial to the second episode of the final season and Night of the Seven Kingdom is because it was all, everything that it should have been about honoring our. time with those characters and their time with each other, like proof inside of the larger failure of season eight that it was possible to do both things. So I think that like it's possible to, you know, we talked about this kind of in an anticipatory fashion in the volume, the second volume two pod, that like quote from the, I think the variety interview or maybe it was a deadline interview. I can't remember about like answering all the questions. We've got a lot of questions to

answer and it's like, I think the season ended in a little bit of a funky spot on that front where like a a lot of those questions weren't answered, or maybe they weren't a little bit. Like, where are the demigorgans at the end is just something that, like, I actually do think is, like, fucking weird. And, like, that... And unfortunately, the Duffers gave a kind of... Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet but answer to it. And I'm just like... Yeah.

Where he was like, Vecna kind of wasn't expecting anyone to come up there. And I'm like, it's the end of the one. Like, it's the final moment of that this plan. He's gathered his 12 vessels there in the... He's, we're lowering the abyss. Like, that's just... That is to me genuinely, like, nonsensical. So if the demigorgians had seen Nancy poke her little head, her well-armed head

up out of the rip and they're like, another wheeler, fuck no, and run screaming for the hills, like the orcs when they see some ends or something like that, like, fine. But to just be like they're not there? Yeah, it was. Yeah, stuff like that is bizarre. It is. It takes you out of the story. And so I think, again, there are levels and variance in the response.

I think the, like, review bombing of episode seven is. is like, that is not what we're talking about. Obviously. That is like really unfortunate. I think that when we are saying there are like, and part of forming an attachment to a story, of course, and loving something so deeply is that you are going to be, I think your coping point is great,

but it's also just like there's a higher likelihood of being let down when you're that invested in something. Would you say paying attention to something is how we show? It's how we show. Last of us on our minds in the finale, I think in a lot of places, obviously with Hop and Elle most of all. but like, yeah, so like the water. I guess to close the loop on the water, I'll say.

Does it invalidate the finale for me? No, it doesn't because the epilogue is so rich. Is it kind of an own goal and I think reflective of a imbalance at the end? Yes. Is it in addition to being a little bit odd on the mythology canon lore like this is what's been established about how the universe. works, you can do whatever you want in your fictional universe when you craft it. You just have to abide by the rules that you set, right? It also is emblematic of another, I think, shortcoming of the final

season, which is the characters consistently behaving in ways that don't make sense. Like, part of what has been interesting about the character said in Stranger Things is, obviously there are adults, there are young adults, but there are children who are growing into adulthood in the next phase of their life. And so when they make mistakes or they do things that are wrong or they think they know and they don't. There's, has often been a, like, this is part of the journey of discovery of, like, where are your limits or what do you know, what don't you? That's different from, like, there is no reason that the characters in the story should

not have wondered if there would be water in that tank. It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have prepared for an outcome where there was, what was their plan? What was a backup plan? There were no backup plans for any way. The fact that there's a van where Erica and Mr. Clark are that just set, it's basically a map to their secret base. is like, that's just...

The fact that there's no plan for when the tower hits the planet that's coming down, that was like absolutely bananas. The fact that there was no plan for when they come back out of the rift, having gone in killing a bunch of military people being shot at, and they're like, we'll just drive out Scott Free. And there was surprise when the military was waiting for them. Like, I understand that they're sleep deprived. I understand that they are mere mortals,

but there were just like moments where you're just sort of like, what was the idea here? So, you know. Okay. So that's a bigger statement that will sort of knock out a bunch of other little moments that we could have just gotten bumped off. So let's, we got that out of the way. Really sketchy knocking code established. It's simply not what I would have done personally. Two and then three, it's just simply not sufficient.

Simply not sufficient. And then 11 makes Hop promise he won't pull her out of the tank no matter what, not until she's sure Henry's dead. He makes her promise that they'll deal with Dr. K. K's stuff after they survive all of this and this goes very well for both of them. Absolutely fine. Mallory, how is this tracking for you emotion? So like character logic aside, all those other things aside. Hop putting 11 in the tank, them calling back to the very same gesture of like Brenner on the other side of the glass and L having her hand up, little L having her hand up to the glass. And she goes in the tank, but this time it's Hopper and all.

or 11. How is that feeling for you emotionally? I'm looking forward to going through in later sequences and scenes the many very intense conversations that they have with each other, but in terms of just that establishing that emotional framework

for their relationship and the finale. Perhaps it won't surprise you to hear that this actually worked for me. And like, you know, I care deeply about their relationship. I think it is more though actually about what you said at the beginning of the pod, the flashback,

seeing how young they were reminding us of the journey, like tonally, the finale of Stranger Things and Avengers Endgame, I would not say they're like one to one as a pair or anything, but it gave me a little bit of that the time heist was a scrapbook for our memories of the Infinity saga feeling.

And like, I'm a sucker for that stuff. I am. I thought also just like something like, okay, 11 has her hair pulled back. And that's practical, right? But the other thing it did was when we're looking through the glass of the tank and we're looking through the glass helmet or plastic,

whatever that's made of. It just looked like her head was shaved again, even though it wasn't. And so even we have the flashes of young Elle and how scared she was, but then we have L in that current form. Let me tell you, let me swing you the other way, though, on this for a second.

Here's another thing seeing Brenner did. this is bad. That was the good. This is the bad. All of the stuff about K, not a single thing about K or the military, it works for me at the end, not a single thing. No. Not for a second. Not once. Showing his spreader is maybe a mistake to remind us of when this worked. Right. Of when it worked. And also I'm like, fuck. Okay. So we're in the final episode. They're just like, not bringing Owens back. That sucks. That's a bummer. You know, that would have been, I think, a better way to go. But I also just like, then I was like, wait.

And actually it's possible someone has asked the duffer system they've answered and I didn't see it as entirely possible. They've done, credit to them, they're doing a lot of interviews. They're out there. They're out there. I'm like, wait. Okay, every single aspect of the end of Stranger's Things hinges on. As long as 11's alive or is known to be alive, the blood could be targeted. between the 79 massacre and L's escape at the beginning of Stranger Things,

Brenner didn't take any of Eleven's blood. There's not like a blood bank somewhere. Really? Like, that is that, I don't know, too many aspects of just the plot, not the emotional truth, but the plot of the final season, I think allow us to ask questions that I would prefer we not be like lingering on and asking at the end of a five-season 10-year journey. But I was like, wow, it looks like a bus cut.

I hope everyone else was so small. Two papas. My heart. And, you know, there are other shows that stumbled at the end where all I had was the opportunity to ask those questions and think about the things that let me down and didn't have the other pull back. So this was a little bit more of a seesaw than a slide into the abyss of despair. I was thinking about that.

I was thinking about like, you know, Millie Bobby Brown probably being like, can I, can we not shave my head again? or put me in like the buzzcut wig. Like, can I just have my hair? And the hair department, which made many grievous errors this season, I would say. Coming up with the slick back was like a really, really smart. I was thinking about that as well. A really, really smart choice.

I did see a great Instagram reel. Have you heard the like, I think it's a Kardashian clip where it's like it's in viral audio where it's like club, another club, like, you know, no boo. sleep, another club, another club, blah, blah, blah. Someone did it for Elle in the final episode. They're like, wetsuit, chafe, wet suit, chafe, sand, chaf. Like, how she's in that wetsuit the whole time and like, how that's quite tough. Okay. Do you think the body love, the wetsuit will become like an iconic bit of costuming or not so much?

With the track pants over it, is that the look? The track pant was a good pairing, I think. But yeah, well, this stand the test of time as a look that we associate with a little moment in our shared experience. A Halloween costume that's the body glove, wet suit, track pants, slick back. You know,

am I dead? Am I alive? You decide? Great question. Okay. Operation Beanstalk Part 2. They're really setting Joyce up that tower. It's a 500 foot tower.

In climbing up the tower today, we have tower vets, Steve and Jonathan. They've done this before. Robin and Nance here here. Will and Mike and Lucas, all spry. And Joyce,

a 47-year-old woman. women. Winona Ryder is actually 54. Hell yes. I say. As a woman in her 40s, I will say, hell yes.

Joyce can climb that tower. With the clock ticking, I'm not sure. We did have the like lambshade of like, make sure to take some rests as you go. But like when they sent her, I was like, they're sending Joyce up that tower.

And then like, as I wrote in our nose later, it's 45 minutes before, roughly 45 minutes before Winona Ryder has a line in this episode. And it's just her saying, Will. That killed me.

in the outline. I was dying when I got there. Well, because, like, before she said that, I was like, are they going to let Joyce speak in this episode? What's happening? And so, like, the whole time I was like, what is she doing at this tower? And then I was like, oh, they want her to chop feckness head off.

Okay. But anyway, as someone who wants to support women in their 40s doing their best, I support Joyce climbing this tower, you know? I will say, I genuinely, I paused when I realized Joyce was part of Tower team. Yeah.

And I was like, wait, what? Why is this the, why is Joyce not with, and you know, it was like, is it just to keep an eye on will or what's the payoff going to be? And then when the payoff comes, it made sense to me the choice was there. But there was a long march and many steps until I understood why Joyce was there and some comedy a long way. I, let me say this. I think that I would struggle to climb that tower at this point in my life.

As you know, I dedicated last year to trying to get like stronger and I'm a much stronger person than I was in the beginning of last year, I'm not climbing that tower. Let me tell you, and especially if there's a clock on it. I'm not climbing. If you're like, give me my time to do, I will, but not, if the ceiling's descending, it's not happening. I will be team lab or actually, to be honest with you, I'll be team back at the radio station hiding better from the military than Vicki and Max decided to do.

Vicki now was Vicki terrified when she saw Max in the trance? She was. Did Vicki still have a lot of questions at the end? she did, did we get any clarity in the epilogue of where Vicky is at the end of all things? We did not. No. Did Vicky definitely have the best job, which was eat snacks? Yeah.

That would have been my preferred assignment. Be bad at hiding. Yep, she crushed it. Be bad at hiding and eat snacks. At first I thought she was like, she had very quickly made her away through a bowl of mac and cheese. Then I realized it was cereal. Later, she's munched on more cereal. Just great stuff.

When I was a kid, I used to love to like climb. to the top of a lighthouse on an outer bank strip or, you know, in college semester abroad. Yeah, I'll head time in Florence. I'll climb to the top of the door. No problem. I did that too. Yeah, yeah. Oh, great.

If I tried to do that now, it's been a minute since I've attempted something like that, but I can barely walk from my car to the studio at the office without feeling like I need a refreshing beverage. That's not true. You're a great and fast walker. I'm a brisk walker, but then a wind did. But then a window one. Yeah, I've climbed, I've climbed towers my day.

I've climbed, well, I've climbed that tower in the movie in Bruges that he's like, you guys can't climb that tower. I've climbed that tower. I did that as well. Actually, did that quite recently. Yeah, but I'm not climbing this fucking 500 foot tower when the time is getting down. No, absolutely not. Did you like that we got like the, just Jonathan does emerge like half a body ahead of Steve?

What's up? What's up, team Jonathan? Okay. Oh, man. Mike and Willa paused to have a tremendously, I thought, awkwardly written chat about how they'll be friends post coming out. This scene was included apparently at Noah Schnapp's request to give some closure relief to. The Biler folks are just like to wrap up, make sure that we all understand that Will and Mike are going to be okay. But I think the Duffers could have done better than friends, no thanks.

Best friends. You didn't pause long enough. You didn't pause for like panic and or hope to manifest. And then best friends. I thought that was a stupid moment in this episode that made me feel a lot of things and cry. But good on Mike for acknowledging his self-absorbed nature. And since Mike is such a mass success for me elsewhere in the finale, I'm willing to give

it a pass. But I thought this was not good. Yeah, I think it's like it felt appropriate and right that the two of them and just the two of them would have a conversation in, you know, following this like massive moment in their shared experience and in Will's life. The particular execution, I agree, but I think it would have, the absence of a scene like this would have felt odd, actually, and slightly conspicuous, but the... Just give it three more passes.

Yeah. Three more passes on the rewrite. Give us some of that, like, you know, multiple Peter Parker's hanging out on some scaffolding kind of energy. Like, I feel like we could have gotten there if we tried. Okay. Our listener Corey wrote in about this sort of resolution for Mike and Will and said, Corey, who identifies as a queer person, says,

I will always cheer when queer love gets the spotlight, but when Frodo and Sam are best friends, when Mike demands he and Will are still best friends, that is also a win against a specific strand of homophobia. It leaves room for a world where we wouldn't have to distance ourselves from touch, intimacy, and care that friends can share platonically. So I'll also cheer for friendships like these, friendships like yours. Aw, like ours. That's so sweet.

Corey. Yeah. So that's an argument that I've heard over the years when people are like, Frodo and Sam don't have to be gay. Like, friendship between men matter. And it does. But if you want to make Frodo and Sam game and your fan fix, that's fine, too. I don't care.

But, like, I like this line about, like, that's a win against a specific strand of homophobia as well, right? That this is like, Corey's larger email was about sort of the accusation of queer baiting and the review bombing that you were talking about. Yeah. But, like, I thought this was, again, I would have written this scene a bit differently, but the fact that Mike is like, Will, you're my best friend. Yes.

also matters, you know. I agree. All right. I've already mentioned that Steve's fucking plan didn't account for the fact that the tower wouldn't line up perfectly with the riffs, which I didn't understand how they knew the riffs were there in the first place, which I mentioned. Last time, Will was like, he's making riffs. I've seen them.

But, like, what was the plan, guys? What was the plan here? A couple quick things on this. Just the, like, I will say right before the life. like, wait, what is happening with the alignment of the Rift? Concern really pulled me into like the undertow of the wave. I was worried I would not escape. The rest of it was like, what?

No, no. Right before that, I did like Dustin's like Mother of God moment. And just like it's a subtle thing, but just not being like, I was right. But like, it made me think of the moment, the Steve Eddy moment that we love, the like humility. It's his tone. right. And he would be proud.

Like Dustin's showing a little humility. I enjoyed that. In terms of the on the Rift misalignment thing, two things. One, as you said, I just would like to reiterate one more time that I really agree. And I thought this was baffling in a way I could barely articulate. Did not think that Operation Beanstalk made much sense when we learned that Operation Beanstalk was afoot in volume two. And the plan was just even dumber to me when I realized that they were just basically. hoping a rift would perfectly align with the tip of the tower or it was going to crumble and

they would all die and also have no way through. I'm like, that's actually not a plan. That's a hope. Now, you could write it in a way where you lean into that, right, into the fact that so much is unknown and there's so much. But we have to try or something like that. Yeah. And like, again, we get a little bit of that with mics like a million things to go wrong. But I actually would have preferred an overt acknowledgement that like they had, fuck, if this doesn't align like earlier, it's all going to go to shit. Having it happened. in this moment, you're like, wait, did they think it would align? Why? It just really pulled me out of it in a way that I did not appreciate it.

Here's what I did appreciate and enjoy. Of all of the influences on Stranger Things and there are many. And again, I think this will be a very Lord of the Rings and never-ending story, rich reference set for today's pod. Over the years, and certainly Dungeons and Dragons, to be clear. Over the years, Stranger Things and we, while covering Stranger Things, have talked about Star Wars many a time. And this felt to me like a great way to honor and nod to one of the central aspects of Star Wars and consuming Star Wars for the first time, which is that Starlack Pit.

It's just a vagina. Like everything is kind of about wanting to fuck. And so the idea that the finale of Stranger Things was going to come down to like, I knew this waiting phallis make its way into the slit was, um, I knew when you said just the tip we weren't done with that conversation, first of all. Secondly, I would like to share another great meme I saw, which is someone put footage of the mind flare with like sort of the gaping, the way I put in our notes, Georgia O'Keefe-esque sort of orifice. And it was just sort of like, you have no power over me. It was Will. And it was like the fact that like Will doesn't like girls that way was not intimidated by the.

vagina monster coming at him. So I love that for all of us. The reverse contains adult content. Okay, Steve, Steve's fake death. I thought this was annoying and dumb, but I saw footage of people shrieking and gasping in the theaters, and I love that it worked for them.

I thought this was, like, really dumb. I thought it was particularly weird to have, like, a fake cut to commercial and then come back and, like, was the plan at one point to cut away to a different plot line and come back and show us that Jonathan had grabbed him? I don't know, but it was just like an,

an odd fade to black and then come back and Jonathan has him. I thought this was dumb. I understand the temptation to want to do it. I understand that it was like irresistible for the deafers, but like I didn't enjoy it.

But it's not a big deal, you know. I also was annoyed by this. I, you know, we're obviously going to talk about everything with L when we get to that stretch of the pot and I can't wait to discuss all of that. And I think we both have a lot to say and a lot that we're feeling about

all of that. Myelage may vary on how people feel about how many Stranger Things characters needed to die at the end. I think it is like pretty valid to say that an undertaking of this nature at this scale with this level of peril, it is implausible that like our entire party would survive it. I think that's totally fair. I also think it's totally fair to say I don't need my characters to die to care about a show or to feel like it has stakes anywhere in between. What I feel as undeniable for me personally is like that these fake outs felt insulting by the end because it's like a little so much of what is rewarding about the finale and the experience, the epilogue of the series overall is the emotional attachment and what those cut to black

moments. If we're, like, the cut to black, I was thinking inside of this season, like there was a little bit of that with Karen and the Demogorgon. Do we care about Karen Wheeler as much as Steve? No, but just we talked about at the time, like, oh, this is sort of like an oddly edited, like, hopped in time. Yeah, sequence to understand what happened. That's a little bit different than what happened here.

But, you know, and then in a moment in real time watching season three for the first time and revisiting season three still, honestly, that always gets me that I love is hop and joy's looking at it hop and, you know, his smile and the nod. and then we cut. And like, they've done this before, but now at the end, it starts to feel like you're counting on my emotional response to that. And it feels like they're toying with us or just sort of like, yeah, they're like they know what that's going to do to people. And so it's just sort of like it reminds me, again, of Thrones PTSD, but it reminds me of the way in which the people who worked on Thrones talked about making the show after the Red Wedding. And it was like watching the impact of the Red Wedding had on.

the viewership, they were, like, chasing that high of, like, we're going to really, like, get that kind of shock and devastation for them. And, like, Thrones did do that several times after that. But again, there's just, like, ways in which, um, it just feels like you're chasing the wrong thing. And there's ways to devastate us, which the episode absolutely did without this, which feels like a cheap trick, honestly, to me. But, you know, like, I am glad that Steve did not die. To be clear. I'm quite. happy that Steve Harrington is alive and teaching sex ed and coaching middle school baseball and really hoping that he'll be able to keep drinking beers on the roof with his friends, which I think we both feel

is not something that is likely to continue. That's very sad. I'm thrilled that Steve is showing up with his new truck and his RV, the RV he always wanted to hang out with Dustin now that Dustin is off at college. Like, Steve being alive is one of the great choice of my life. I'm not complaining about that. Don't cut to black to make me think he fell off the tower and died. I don't need you to do that because I already care about Steve enough. And I don't need to be reminded that I care about him because the experience of watching him grow and change over five years is how I know that I care about him. Absolutely. Similarly, the moment later when the mind flare, you know, pointy talent foot is about to come down on Dustin. Yeah. And then Lucas like rolls. That one was like less annoying because it just

all happened inside of the action. So I was just sort of like, you're not, you're not like lingering on this in a sort of like, aha, got you kind of way. But yeah, I am very glad that Steve's a lot. I thought it was cute that Jonathan saved him. Seeing Robin and Dustin, like, sort of react to that was, you know, was fine. And again, if it worked on you, especially in that sort of theatrical space where you're all sharing, like, your feelings. I love that for you. Okay. Operation B. Stark Part 3, Time Travel-ish, is what we're calling it.

Did you immediately understand that Max, when she got up out of the chair, was headed into Eleven's mind since, like, of course, she did say, like, I can help guide you or something like that? Or were you worried ever that Vecna had her again? Because for a second, I was like, is she in a Vecna trance again? You know what I mean? Like, what did you think? Yeah, I think the ominous scoring, you know, the musical notes and the kind of like underbed of the soundscape, the visual treatment. You know, anytime that like 11 across the series enters the void, the black space, the, you know, Max tipping her toes into the wet floor. like the electric sign for the squawk.

Like all of it looks really cool. Looks really cool. It heightened it in emotion. It actually was like it's not, I didn't feel this nearly as keenly as the cut to black with Steve falling off the tower. But I actually was like, I don't know. Like they told us the plan was for Max to like,

for now. Max is going to be in the mindscape. So why try to make us think for a minute that, but only for like a half a beat? It wasn't enough to make us think that something had really gone wrong for Max there. obviously Vicky is scared, but yeah, that was like, I thought just like a little bit odd. I wasn't sure really if we were supposed to feel concerned or if we were supposed to understand exactly from the word go what was happening.

And it didn't end up lasting long enough that period of uncertainty to matter. So then it's like, why do it that way? I do think that the sign inside the voice base, which is separate from what we're talking about, is like one of the coolest visuals of the finale. In a lot of, there were a lot of great visuals in the finale. Um, L gives her a really odd high, like a high, like very strange, but I don't know, it was kind of cool, but some people are bumping on it. Okay. We're back at Hawkins High in 1959. You can tell because Shiboom is playing.

Max, Sadie Sink, Broadway kid that she is, has spent a lot of time watching the first shadow. And so she knows what the entire cast of characters is up to. Shout out the myth, the man, the legend, Ted Wheeler for getting a this guy fucks reference of the finale, Mallory. Before we check in on your time travel feelings, how did you feel about this first but not last Ted Wheeler moment inside of the finale? As always, I could have done with more Ted, but I was grateful for the Ted that we got.

It's just, I appreciate this last attempt to try to convince us that Ted Wheeler has always been this age, even though he has not. I appreciate it, but yeah, Ted, you know, sex god Ted Wheeler, why not? Swinging a golf club of a certain sort. Always.

Why not? Good for him. Good for him. Carlos, will you play this clip for me? What's up, Mallory? It's Joe Crest here, aka Ted Wheeler on Stranger Things. Mallory, I just want to wish you a happy new year. Happy 2026.

It's already such a great year. And this is coming to you from me and from Joanna. I understand you guys have a podcast together. That's fantastic. And I also wanted to thank you for watching the show. And thanks for having Ted's back. My goodness. Oh, my God.

Somebody has to. Did you notice in the hospital, all friends and family running around in there. Demogorgans on the loose. And no one was worried or even asked about Ted. I bet you would have asked about Ted. So you would have probably even made sure. he had at least one strip of bacon left on the plate when it came his way. Anyway, Mallory.

What is insane? I thank you for having to ask that. Oh, my God. I also want to wish you a happy new year and a little dad advice here for you. Don't wait for it to be a great year. Get out there and make it a great year. Each and every day, those feet at the ground. It's a beautiful day.

Get out there and make the most of it. And thank you guys. Holy shit. Happy New Year. What? Tell Howard. I'm so overwhelmed right now. Happy Hanukkah. Holy shit.

That is the best. That was the best. That is the best thing that has ever happened. Oh my God. Ted and the specificity of it, did we notice that nobody checked on Ted in the hospital? Yeah. Yeah, we did. It's all we talked about for many podcasts.

The Bacon Call Out. Oh, my God. That was... short of including a language, language, because of how often we curse on the pod. I don't know that anything else could have matched that experience. How did that come to be? Tell me everything. No free ads on this podcast, but Joe Crest does have cameo.

Holy shit. If anyone wants a cameo from Ted Wheeler, I did submit this request a while ago. Oh, my God. Joe was enjoying the holidays with his family, and I do not begrudge him that. So it's like, there's like a window on cameo of like, and the person can fulfill it, fulfill it. And if they don't, it just, like, refunds you. And he didn't because he was enjoying his holidays.

And I was like, we're going to try it again. And he came through, like, late Saturday night. So just in time for the podcast. Thanks, Joe, for coming through. Carlos did a little podcast-friendly edit on it. So thanks to Carlos for getting that ready for you. It's our gift to you, Mallory. We love you.

And we wanted to make sure you had your 10-wheeler moment on the podcast. This is one of the best moments of my life. That's great. incredible. Is it tragic that Joe and Ted got more total runtime on the Stranger Things House of Our finale podcast and in the final season of Stranger Things? A little bit, a little bit. But it's nice to have this time. And it's nice to have one more reminder of what Ted gave us over the years. And I truly can't believe that that just happened. It was the opposite of how it feels to ask for bacon at the breakfast table and then receive nothing but a greasy empty plate.

It was like a, it was, this was basically my version of the, the bounty at the Creel Mansion, you know, just goodness everywhere you look. Sprinkles. Sprinkles as far as the I can see for you, how I've ever been. You're the best. Holy shit. I love you. Thank you.

Thanks, Joe. Also, if anyone listening wants to, wow. Throw Joe some cameo bucks. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. Okay, so listen. Holy shit. Joe, Ted. From that high, I can't believe it. While I have you in this

euphoria space is now the time to check in on time travel, 12 kids, hourglass feelings, or is it too soon to go there for you? In terms of navigating memories, being the closest kind of we get to time travel inside of this finale, how do you feel about that? Fine. Like, I think that, you know, we talk about

this a lot hold your theories loosely it's not like i ever needed the kids to go actively like back to 1983 and uh that we needed or i needed to see that like 11 was somehow responsible for the door unlocking at the buyer's home or something like that like it i was thinking a little bit of our conversations i don't want to um i don't want to spoil uh a key development of rings of power for people who have not seen that show check it out yet i'll try to say this in a code in fashion, you'll know what I mean. And anyone who's seen the show will know what I mean.

I was thinking a little bit about the conversation we had about if you're going to tease and set up this many times that a certain character might be a certain someone. At a certain point, you like, you gotta kind of do it, actually. I really respect

you trying to like keep that non-secrette secret for people who want to catch up for Rings of Power season three in which Jamie Camp Bauer will be in. Do you think he's playing Caliborne? That's what I think.

If you haven't announced who he's playing. It would be one of the thrills of my life, your life, and our shared experience if that ended up being true, that would be fucking great. So excited. So, like, you know, I don't think it was quite that because I do think we got time travel in a fashion with the memories. And I think in general, this kind of, like, thematic exploration of the nature of time and the passage of time and what time means and what an experience in a certain moment

of time and the people you share it with means, all of that was there. am I like, I do kind of not totally understand the like sequential editing of the end of season three while talking about time and like, you know, X, Y and Z and why did Henry need. The number 12 for the kids not mattering when we get so many, including in this finale, like Henry is standing in front of a clock looking at the hands of a clock. This wizard and his clocks mentions like, that's a little weird to me at the end, but it's less about me meeting the party to travel through time. and more about, I feel like they did signal that this was coming in a certain way. But, yeah, ultimately I'm like, all right, why 12? I don't know. But that's okay.

The ticking of the, the very, very, very heavy ticking of the clock and chiming of the clock as we watched, as we look at the X and the abyss is starting to lower. And I was like, wait, is it like just the countdown clock and draft day? Like, that was sort of a weird feeling, honestly. but it's okay. Okay. Back to Hawkins High. If you were confused by the cut through the theater

bears zero resemblance to any production of Oklahoma you've ever seen, we actually got a lot of emails from First Shadow Theatergoers in the past few weeks, letting us know that Joyce was not putting on a production of Oklahoma. She was sneakily mounting a play called Darker the Moon, which she did not think she could get away with.

So she's like pretended it was Oklahoma, and then she was going to bait and switch with Dark of the Moon. Theater Corner. Tell me. Dark of the Moon is a 1945 play by Howard Richardson and William Bernie, a quote,

legend with music set in the Appalachian Mountains based on the folk ballad of Barbara Allen. It tells the tragic love story of John, a quote, witch boy, who wants to become a human to marry a mortal girl, Barbara Allen, leading to conflicts with superstitious

townspeople and fatal outcomes for the lovers with John returning to the world of the witches. So, a couple things. less for shadow. A fact, Henry was cast, Henry Creel, young Henry Kiel was cast as

the witch boy, which may not be curly from Oklahoma, but it is the lead so good job, Henry. I still don't understand what you're doing at a high school production. And then does this plot sound 11 coded to you? Like, we're of two different worlds, we cannot be together, I need to return to my world and you stay in your world sort of thing.

What do you think? Yeah, definitely. Interesting. This is fun to know. I yet another area where again I just I have more questions that I'd like at the end still I thought that the like

everything connects but there are long ways and short ways Max Dorothy Oz yellow brick road like suddenly we lost the plot in Wizard of Oz but the fact that I think the fact that Max knows the the shortcuts for

the memories makes a lot of sense to me, right? She's just spent, she had all that time to explore it. It's like in Groundhog's Day when like Bill Murray knows what everyone's going to do at any given second and she's like, there's a shortcut through the theater. Like, I think she could have said there's a shortcut through the theater, not stand on the stage and be confused, you know, just like. Yes, it was like, yes, I agree. I think it makes sense to me and especially including her in the, the stretch of the finale

in this way because as Collie is like, I thought you knew this place like the, you said you knew it like the back of your hands. She's got the experience. I think that because we traveled very sequentially previously, in part because Max with Holly, like we were looking for the breakthrough and the clues. Then it's another example I think where there could have been like literally maybe like one line or half a line earlier to like prepare us for something. So it felt less jarring.

Ultimately, Max knowing this because of her time there and Max being involved in this way, I think makes sense. I would have loved if Joyce while swinging the axe to decapitate Vecna had said, at the end. And by the way, you were a shitty witch boy. Give us the clarity. And none of this, like, yeah, they probably talked about it off screen, like that they knew Henry and high school stuff, which is just tough. Huff answer from the Duffer Brothers. Really tough. Wild? Yeah, to be clear, if you haven't seen that, the Duffer Brothers then interviewers said, like, oh, yeah, Hop and Joyce probably talked about Henry off screen. They kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet, and they probably talked about Henry.

off screen, fine. Would have been high comedy of Joyce. You were a shit witch boy. I like so much better than you fucked with the wrong family. Can I just say? Why not both? You fucked with the wrong family. And by the way, you were a shit.

You were a shit witch boy. Yeah, I know who you are. It's like, it's not quite who are you, right? It's like, I know who you are. You are shit. You are shit, which boy. And now I'm going to sever your head from your body. Okay, here we go.

A reminder of Collie's powers that we get before the end. Okay, so 11 notably does not pause when she runs into the grillhouse. Collie take notes. Eleven just goes in. Someone must have told her Steve's life was hanging in the balance. She just like rips Henry away from the kids. And then the trio execute a pretty cool gamut involving Collie's powers. And Henry's fondness for monologuing, right?

So there's illusion magic here. And then Henry just like loves to yammer. So that's great. He loves to like let the kids know behind the veil that he's a bad guy. Unfortunately, a couple things. happen here. Henry taps into 11's mind and gets some psychological dirt on her suicide pack with Callie and eventually Jim Hopper's wartime slash Sarah PTSD stuff, which he either extracts

from Jim or maybe get some hint from 11 and knows where to look at Jim. Either way. Collie pauses to say, hello brother. She pauses to quip before stabbing. Here's a lesson from Buffy Vampire Slayer. Usually Buffy quips after she staked the vampires. stake first quip later. That's the order of operations, Collie. And last but not least, Max says to Holly here, I'm not leaving your side ever again, not till we're out of here,

all of us. Max, beloved, I love you so much. That was a tough promise to make when you're going to evaporate it to air mirror minutes from now. So how did all this work for that work for you? I mean, I think the plan was pretty good. It wasn't executed perfectly, but we did manage to convince the kids to high-tail it out of there, like, pretty quickly. So that's, that's good. Yeah. I think that the, you know, we get that it's him. He's, he's the, the black thing line. Thomas contributing only a holy shit, you know. It's fucking Thomas. Thomas, my number one at me. He'll come up several times and they don't. We did the astonishing amount of Thomas in your outline, which I really respect and admire. I think it's appropriate. To be clear, that's the kid that called Holly a bitch.

and he's just on my shit list forever. So I think this idea of like, the way the wrinkle in time was used throughout the season with Camazots, the black thing, like we're going to obviously talk about it. We build toward this like, we are one, this great Henry Creole, that moment that, you know, was,

I mean, I think we both can't wait to talk about Jamie Campbell Bauer more just iconic stuff from him in this finale. This idea of like the black thing, and it and how much is entwined and how much is distinct. And I think the influence there and how that was like deployed here and the idea of the kids needing to witness that truth to be pulled out of a fog was an interesting way to kind of continue to incorporate that influence.

I think this was a good use of Collie's magic. And obviously it will not be the last time that we talk about her. But good to remind us within the episode that she can do this. Yeah, that was smart. I, on the max front, you never make a promise. I just think in general, you know, talk about something we talk about in Thrones. You never make a promise in a situation like this. Just don't do it because you don't know if you're going to be able to keep it.

And frankly, you probably won't. Did I like that Max had learned a lesson? I did. Did she? I think I know. I mean, you know, maybe like Holly, with the fire poker. We got to get to like

the third or fourth time before it really appropriately like, I'm sorry I left you. I shouldn't have. Something like that without saying I'll never leave you again

until we're out of here. To Max's credit she managed to like maintain her corporeal form for like a beat longer than Helen Collie did so that she could be like

Holly wrong. So good for Max, good for Max on that front. Makes no sense. Eleven should have been the last one corporeal there but that's okay. Whatever.

on I want to hit Vecna and L for a second, but on the collie front and just the plan. I, the shit talking, the flexing, the hello brother moment, Buffy Comp, iconic work from you, all great points. I do not think that it is appropriate for the plan to destroy Vecna to come down to.

We'll stab him with a steak knife. I do not think that is good enough. I'm sorry. It is not a good enough plan. And that continues the theme of this is not a good enough plan. The plan was to cut him like our dinner? Operation Beanstalk kind of sucks. I'll say it.

I'll say it. I'll say it. Shoddy plan work all the way down. I mean, where is a gasoline-filled grenade water balloon when you need it? We'll get one soon. but where was it here? Let's light this fucker on fire. Lucas is hoarding all of them.

Well, can you take a flare gun into the, like, they're in his head. So maybe they can only use what's there. What's there. And they're like the closest thing we have as a stigma. So many candles were lit in that home. There is fire there. Like, light this fucker up. And light this fucker up.

He likes it cold. I don't know if you know that. He likes it cold. We're stabbing it absurd. Okay. 11 and Vecna. Stronger, aren't we? So,

am I. Now, I will talk about some of the story beats and some of the scripting a little bit more as we go, the plotting, et cetera, performance-wise. Not a misstep from Jamie Campbellbauer in the run. Not a misstep. This was unbelievable. All of it. Absolutely. Can't wait to talk about the cave, can't wait to talk about the mineshaft. This also, though, gave me a chill. Stronger, aren't we? So am I. It was so good. It put me in the mental, emotional, emotional, like spiritual place I wanted to be in the finale. And it was great because it was threatening. It was ominous. It was scary. But it also was human, right? Like he's our bad guy. He's our villain, but he's also still just like a lost boy who's trying to find his way and like keep leveling up and getting

better. And so I think the way that this little line and little moment continued to maintain and establish a parallel between them to Brenner lab rats who've had to find ways for different purposes ultimately to channel what's inside like really worked and obviously we won't get more of that as we go but I was grateful for that moment here I really agree that's a so into the next section we have here which is which I'm calling hopper freaks out and we get the full complement of stressors for hop agent orange yes Sarah yeah threat to 11 safety, you're the curse, etc., etc., etc. And to that point about, like, Henry's saying to 11 stronger, aren't we?

So am I. I did see some criticisms of like, this is not how Vecna's powers exactly has worked in the past. And I'm like, so he leveled up. 11 leveled up, he leveled up. I feel like that's fine. I'm not stressed about that personally. He's juiced up on the essence of 12 kids, including Thomas.

So, you know, he's doing things he's never done before. Hop reacts. She sure does. Yeah. Mallory, I want to make space for you and your feelings on this scene because we have a different relationship to hop, and I'm also suffering from Star Lord and Infinity War PTSD. I will never get over. So this did not hit for me.

I think the way they wanted it to hit for me, but how did it work for you? I enjoyed this. I think that, you know, I think my relationship to Androda Hopper is very rooted in his persistent fallibility. I would have overall across the final season, not the finale, but the final season, preferred for us to spend more time in a space of growth and advancement and a little less time in the backslide. But I think the backslides are human. In this scene in particular, though, Sarah, the vision of Sarah, all of these insecurities, all of these fears coming back to the fore. You knew this would happen, just like you know what will happen to her.

First of all, it's just like a classic Vecna move. Leveled up, as you noted, but this idea of like weaponizing fear. We actually talked about this in season four, the way that, like, you mentioned, like, hop is so ripe for what is happening to Chrissy and Max and Patrick and Fred and the way that Vecna is preying on your darkest thoughts. We talked about in volume one of this run, too, because he, like, he was telling his war stories a couple times, and I was, like, wondering if Vecna would use the war guilt. Yeah.

She does, you know. Yeah. And so the fact that, like, you know, we've revisited and talked about, you know, the conversation at the end of season two that he and L have in the truck and this idea of being the black hole and everything he said to Enzo not Enzo in season four, like, I'm cursed. Like, the lament of, like, leading people in his life as he sees it time and again to this devastating place. It's exactly the kind of thing that Vecna.

would try to pounce upon. So it made sense to me that that happened here for both of them. I was a little confused. I was thinking back to our conversations in prior episodes about how much did he know or not know about what Kali and Elle had discussed. And it's like, I think made pretty clear in the finale that this is revealed to him here. So then that's like, again, it's another example of where sometimes even when I liked in the finale, actually makes me like lowers in my estimation

a little bit of what came before on the season, but so there we are. I thought that the Vecna, I am many things, but I am not a liar, was another note that I was glad the finale returned to. Yeah, I'm a self-mythologizing tree branch

with a god complex and a knack for manipulating. I love a spider, but I'm not a fucking liar, man. And this idea that like, well, what is the tree? truth really. Because Henry believes that he is not a liar. Of course, one of the ways that he in 11 bonded in season four, one of the things that we loved to watch in that relationship in the Hawkins Lab flashbacks was like, Papa's the one who lies, actually. But part of what has made

Henry Creel an interesting villain is that he, you know, we talked about this lot this season, is like, well, what Henry is this future that he thinks he's building? Like, right, the light, bringing back the light, like all this sort of stuff like that. How much does he actually believe that to be a proper framing. So is he lying to these kids? He's manipulating these kids. Yes. But is he lying to these kids? Right. And does he know the difference? And like I think that's an interesting thing to center again for considering his character here at the end. Where does the idea of perception and perspective just cease to matter? Because the mania has taken such a firm grip and root. And I think it was also cool that Eleven and Hopper in a way, kind of had a shared

experience of being on the receiving end of that message from him. I liked that part of it. And I just think, like, I will say notable contrast to our party, our beloved heroes, this was a good plan from Henry. Like, it was, right? Pretty savvy stuff from vetting here. Quick thinking to you on, he sees what's happened. Okay, I have escaped from under the steak knife with the quickness of pretty easily. Right. Now I need to remove 11 from the the mindscape. And guess what? There's no fucking water in the upside down. So if I get this guy to shoot this tank, where are they going to find another bathtub? They didn't come prepared. Like, I don't know. It's good to see, is this completely undone by the fact that he kind of forgot

about his demigorgans, just as daddy kind of forgot about the iron plate? It is. But here in this moment, I was like, yeah, this is good. And I think the fact that like he's, he's praying on hops fears. It's sick, it's wrong, it's what Vecna does. It also has the, I think, capacity to warm us, some of us, again, to hop. Because amid all of the missteps, like you're rooted in the why, right? The insecurity and the love for why he fears what he fears, why he makes the mistakes, why he holds on as tightly too tightly as he does to the things he's afraid to lose. And I think remembering that is great.

And then there's that last little element that I liked about it, which was, I thought there was something kind of delicious about Vecna doing this to a parent given that so much of his origin story and his personal mythology is like I saw who my parents really were like this predictable drudgery

of people pairing up and start families and domestic life and society and structure fuck all of that I don't have room for it at all. Like the fact that that's like the thing he's trying to pray upon and tear down all like the thing that our heroes are drawn into and also fighting to save,

the thing that gives them their strength. I thought all of that was kind of present here. And so honestly, there wasn't like really a part of me that was like, why did Hop fuck up? I was like this kind of all, this feels like this is how this should go. No, no, I definitely wasn't like, why did Hop fuck up? No, because Hop is a perpetual fuckup. That's what he does.

It was just aggravating. Yeah. We're not done with Hop yet, though. Okay. Yeah, we've got a lot of hop in this finale, Joe. It's true. we will eventually get 11 making her case to Hopper, but first we kind of have Hop making his pitch to L.

On the collie front in this sequence, first of all, great on the sneaker marketing, great close-up of Lacing up the field general highs, a shoe that they made in a high for The Stranger Things Run. Great stuff. But I thought that Collie, there's a lot that ended up warming me to Collie in this finale. just this moment of like genuine fear and worry.

The kids, like we got it. We're on the clock, guys. The kids are all alone. I liked as a beat. I thought that was like a good thing to have there. You know, whether you're worried about a kid being a blood bag or a vessel, they all remind her of her and of Elle and their experience.

Also, her saying like he's lost his mind. Like fear has infected him. I guess that was accurate and a good assessment of what was going on. And also the, that's a lot of ifs. It's like, I thought very fair. Very fair. L, you know, saying to Hop, like, he tricked you, he used you, and you fell for it.

I have to end the cycle. I'm talking this through, this idea of this anchor and this fear. When Hop said, life has been so unfair to you, so cruel, but you never let it break you. and then he like kind of implores her fight for happy days on the other side of this fight for a world beyond Hawkins and then later, you will find a way because he says, I promise you, we will find a way to make it real. And then he takes a beat and says, you will find a way to make it real. This kind of last appeal from him is of course still fueled by his need and his despair and his fear and his insecurity. I thought it was really important that the language and framing of this pitch,

we have yet another step for the two of them to take still, that he didn't make it about him, he made it about her. He made it about what 11 has lost, about what 11 deserves, what 11 can have, and what 11 can achieve, right? Because as she will say later, like, believe in me, trust me,

the way that you keep telling me you're going to. It gave me some Joel, Ellie, like, if that day should come, I hope you do a little better than me vibes, not to the extent of the porch sequence, to be clear. No, I was thinking about that as well. Yeah. I want to push back.

Tell me. I don't want to yuck your yama pop. No, no. Not at all. When he says fight for that day that you have a kid of your own, you give her the life you never have for the day, you get so angry because she invites a boy over and she won't keep the door open three inches. Like, is he talking about her? No, he's talking about himself. He's like, he's like, fight to become me is like a really, you know, which is slightly different from if one day you have a kid of your own.

and I hope you do a little bit better than I did. You know what I mean? Like it's a little bit different. And that's just like hop inside of a narcissistic space that is just how he operates. You know what I mean? And like there are good great qualities to hop, but there's just like also just things I constantly bump on with him. Totally. I, yeah.

I think that's right. And I think that like this felt like a one more wrong on a ladder that he is still climbing, both in his journey as a character. and inside of this episode. And, you know, when he gets, when we get to the conversation with Mike on the bench, like that's a different, that's a different and a much more evolved.

Yes. I agree with you ultimately that like, Hop and all of these people is valuable people who like backslide, move forward, backslide, all this sort of stuff like that. But like, hop feels like especially in the early parts of this season, so regressed. Yeah, I definitely.

That it almost feels like he, like hops, like leaps 10 steps forward to get to that conversation with Mike on the bench. Whereas I feel like if we had watched him in a bit more of an involved space this season, then him being in that acceptance, it was her choice space that he gets to with Mike on the bench, all feels like it flows a little bit better. I totally agree. I think this is one of the miscalibrations of the season, just as some of the Dustin Steve stuff was miscalibrated. Do we get to a rewarding place at the end?

do was the journey there where we and the character should have been in season five? I think no. So I agree with you. I think that's fair. I think that's actually, because I actually feel that so keenly with Hop, a character I'm so invested in in, and Hop and L,

a relationship I'm so invested in. I think this conversation as a path to the next conversation that they'll have on the roof and then the Hop and Mike's scene on the bench felt to me like a little bit like a drop of water in a desert this season of like the moment. moments of growth that I wanted. Where's the water? And a waterless upside down. Yeah. There shouldn't be a fucking drop. There shouldn't be a single drop. So, you know, like this gave me a little, as many things in the finale do and more to come, a little of the like we're thinking of Frodo. We're thinking of the shire in this like appeal to think about what the future could be, what you're trying to save. But, you know, it also did. It just made me think of one of my favorite changer things moments, which was the letter at the end of season three, like when life hurts you because it will remember the hurt. The hurt is good. It means you're out of that cave. I think this this appeal that he's making to 11 here. the idea that the pain can be so debilitating for him, for her, for anybody,

that that's actually worth holding on to because it's how you know you're here. I like when the show explores that idea inside of this relationship. So plenty of notes on Hopin Season 5. I thought we were working our way back here. A little too late, but better than not at all. All right.

So elsewhere, the teens and the young adults and Joyce, reach the abyss. Yeah. And then, I'm sorry, they mosey to find the kids. They're ambling. It's what I've called in the notes, Amblein Entertainment up here. They're just...

Great stuff. Like, taking a cheery little walk through the abyss to find him. And I know that they think Henry is dead, but why are they making that assumption, first of all? And then if he is still, move, there are children. hooked up to a weird thing that Will has painted on the side of a barn. And so, listen, our listener, Camille pointed out that it doesn't seem as if any of them slept all season since November 4th.

So there is that. But I was just still so, as you know, I've been annoyed all season by the lack of running on some of our characters part. And the lack of hustle from this team in this moment was extremely frustrating. Inside of the lack of hustle, you can have some of these conversations we have with a faster pace with a quickness, right? Steve and Jonathan have a little chat about Nancy. Fine.

I thought that was fine, didn't light my hair on fire. And then Mike and Nancy have a little chat about firearms. Nancy gives Mike a flare gun, which Lucas points out. And I'm choosing to believe this was a Tremer's reference. If you've seen Tremors, one of my favorite movies of all time, there's a kid who's constantly asking for a gun from a character who has a ton of guns. And he finally gives him a gun, but he doesn't load it. And so that's, I believe this was a reference to that.

But no one tell me otherwise. Okay. Anything you want to say about this section? I did not understand. I mean, I understand, you know, the abyss stops. So they're like, Elle, got Henry out of there. Maybe he's dead. But again, I was like, why are they making these assumptions?

So many assumptions. With the kids still in peril, you know? Very odd. I agree. This was, of course, also where we've already talked about this, but I was just like, you know, they're talking about, they're lampshading the lack of, like, the demo army, the creatures and all the things they thought they were confront.

And I'm like, acknowledging that these things that you thought would be here not here does not make it any less odd that they're not here, actually. I loved the theory that the Duffer's contradiction when they said he just kind of forgot about the threats to his plan. But there was someone, someone had the theory that he had like used the bodies of the demigorgans to make the paint tree, to make the mind flare, structure and I loved that idea. Not what happened. But that could have been a fun idea. Yeah, I think especially because

like the creature design obviously at scale and a genuinely like breathtaking and spectacular way, really I thought connected most, obviously it connects to the season two, you know, the drawing of the smoke monster, but like really took me to season three final boss. Yeah, made from the flayed. Yeah. Made from the flesh of Hawkins. Yeah. So that would have been, that would have been fun. But I agree, the pace of this sequence and the lack of urgency from the character struck me as odd. And I think while I like those little beats and little moments and the little pairings and

the little chats, it felt to me like a little bit of a product of the failure to properly, like, assigned time across the season to moments like that. So, like, we've got all this stuff left to do in these cover. We need to have, like, Stephen Jonathan, Barry. the Nancy hatchet at the end and it's like, but is this the moment? So that was all a little bit odd. I did think it was very funny when Steve realized that Nancy had put him on blast about the Nuggets. That was classic. Tough stuff there. Maybe just don't call them Nuggets. Maybe just don't call them Shives at four. So yeah, it's just the pacing stuff was a lot there. I think

the Jonathan and Steve stuff I've really been sort of mulling over this season. And I think something that they wanted to do was try to capture the very real natural chemistry that Joe Keri and Charlie Heaton, who are like very, very good friends have, and you can see it in interviews. They just like adore each other. They have a bromance. Again, I think as I've mentioned, Joe Keri wrote a song called Charlie's Garden about like just hanging out in Charlie and Talia's garden. Like I and I just don't think they, if that was their hope, you know, the way in which Robin and Steve or Dustin and Steve or Eddie and Steve, Like maybe they were like, how do we make Jonathan feel a bit more sort of like sticky here at the end?

Because they've struggled a bit with that character, I think, in the last few seasons. And I just don't, I don't think they achieved what I think they wanted to achieve. Yeah, I agree. But I understand the impulse. Same. I was glad that, you know, we got the moment from Steve where he's like, I could just like save you guys some trouble here. Because I've known for a hot minute here that wasn't going to happen with Nancy. I did feel grateful as we've, you know, discussed this season.

I felt it was important that not all of these like childhood lovers wound up staying together and so for it. Just Max and Lucas. And that felt right. Yeah, like for Max and Lucas to be strong at the end for us to get the glimpse of them, the movie theater, perfect. Can't wait to talk more about their little skateboard moment. Those two are having a good time.

It's clear. Great. You know, I think it's right. even after it doesn't make the ship wars debates for five seasons any less like fun or a thing that I participated in very actively in real time and liked thinking about and felt invested in, this felt right. And that's part of what like evolution in a coming of age story should feel like. You know, the priorities or the things that feel appropriate or right for a character to give a moment change. So I was glad that Steve was like, actually, I'm not, you guys broke up?

I'm not making a move. Jonathan winds up with his film camera. Steve winds up with a baseball team and Nancy winds up with a journalism career and a bunch of guns. And a new haircut. And a new haircut. Okay. That's Smith. Perfect.

So the teens and Joyce and the young adults are not running. But you know who is running the kids? And guess what? They never stop running and this is the energy I want to see. So because of Hobbs' actions, right? and Max, despite her reckless promise, 11 and Holly vanished, leaving Holly the heroic in charge. But you know what, Holly absolutely delivers. The kids are sprinting to the cave.

Derek is winded. Relatable content, Derek. But Holly does not, like, abandon him. And then she saved Derek. Save yourselves, you've done this. This is just great. She saves Derek. Derek, in turn, saves her when Henry shows up and try to grut arm Holly out of the crevice.

And we get the last and perhaps most important suck my fat one. Though you know that Bad News Bear's style, like Derek is using that on the baseball team all the time. No question. No question. I don't know if Steve has ever hidden in with language, but, you know, that is a... Not from Coach Steve. Not from Coach Harrington. Yeah.

I, as you know, love Derek. I think Derek is fantastic. I thought he was great and just a ray of light and levity across the final season. I've gotten the kick out of basically every suck my fat one until this point in the barn Robbins like Jesus what response would have had the top spot saying suck my fat one to Vecna

is the most incredible thing I've ever seen and his Henry's face response to this was so perfect I believe that this instantly iconic moment will stand the test of of time, and I think that that's fair, and I think that that's right, and it's what Derek deserves, and it's what we deserve.

This is great. What happened, by the way, of all the, like, we didn't check in on this character at the end people we can mention? How do you think there's some of the turnbos are doing? Oh, they're still in that barn, moldering. Eighteen months later. No, they're still tied up in the barn. Like, they have no reason to go to the graduation, so I don't think we needed them in the

graduation scene, but maybe, like, in the stands at the baseball game, cheering for Derek or something like that. Yeah. Like showing us that they had survived. Survived the barn. Also, like on the, you know, in the list of spinoffs that I am interested in, we'll get to the one that we seem to be heading toward later.

But, you know, I'd really be into like some sort of real estate show with the turn. How are you selling life in Hawkins after everything that's happened? House hunters, Hawkins? With the Turnbows? No? It's Steve Harrington Little League co-shirts fucking nothing. And I think you know that that's true. That's obviously.

I mean, that's so good. clearly the only contender of real consideration and merit. Robin and Smith, I'm not wholly against, to be honest. That would be great as well. But yeah, when the hug between Derek and Steve in the mind flier and then the glimpse of them on the baseball diamond, it's hard not to think about the future that we could have. Okay, so Ted with the golf club, Karen with the wine bottle. Nancy with all of her guns, Mike with his flare gun,

the wheelers are doing their best, but here comes Holly the heroic and she finds the fireplace poker. She does. When she needs it, how did you feel about this blow? The very fetching cheekbone slice, you know, one of my favorite,

we got some emails from listeners being like, Joanna's favorite, a cheekbone slice wound. You love a cheekbone. You hate a crevice. You abhor a crevice. Yeah. But you love an Ocean Vista

and you love a cheekbone slice. This was a pretty deep gash. Less of a slice and more of a like, we've cut deep here. But I liked this. I thought this was good for a couple reasons. First of all, just Henry's face,

the shock when this happens. He is doing so much and conveying so much with his eyes and with his expression. It's just remarkable. We talked about this a lot last volume in the last couple pods, but like obviously,

Holly and Max spent a lot of time talking about Holly's lament, right? That she hadn't... I froze. Intervene when the Demogorgon was attacking Karen or when Vecna was attacking Max. And so we sort of, I think, felt and knew that we were going to get a payoff for that

was on the heels of Holly, the heroic speech running toward her own portal alone. Thanks, Max. The payoff was there more of calm, you know, stumbling up a sky. why, stumbling upon the poker and deciding to lift it and to go and protect her friends. I thought was a nice payoff. We had gotten Max saying, like, you're not being fair to yourself.

You think, Yoniseling, you get a stop of these monsters with a fire poker, but it's like, Holly is a character who will try, and that's a cool thing to know about her. I also thought, given that we were building toward the big, are we heading toward a moment of redemption for Henry Creel? or not stretch of the finale, seeing Henry stop the third swing of the fire poker, twist Holly's arm to drop it out of her hand, choke her,

knock her down, knock her unconscious. It's like, not that we needed it, but one more reminder of the violence that he has inflicted upon child after child after child right on the precipice

of what is about to unfold, I thought was useful. I think that's a really good point. Henry's falling apart. Yeah. This, as you've already mentioned, like Jamie Campbellbauer, I already put this on like Twitter and Blue Sky

and already got roasted by people being like you love a tall, gangly, blonde villain of dubious European extraction. It's true. But that's not, I just think this is, one of the best performances I've ever seen, honestly. And I don't know that I think the Henry stuff is like perfectly written here in the finale, but I think it's perfectly performed.

And so it just sort of paced over any of the cracks that I, that I have in this. The decision to let Henry B and his, let Jamie perform this in his Mr. What's-It guys rather than Vecna is so crucial. Yeah. So thank you so much. Duffer Brothers for giving us a human face. I just think that like elsewhere in the abyss, right, Will starts to psychically connect with Henry, realizing he's still alive. Again, 42 minutes in the finale, we get Joyce's first line, Will. But his entrance into the cave, his fighting, what we discover really is the mind flare trying to keep him out of there.

The resisted at first I thought that was the mineflare's voice in his mind being like resist going into the cave or resist. I don't know, but we find out later that it is a character who still doesn't have a name is called rogue scientist. But Henry, we'll come back to this because it sort of happens in two parts. But like Henry watching the end of his innocence in that mineshaft, the notion that we talked about again and again of there before the grace goes Will or 11, Henry is just another version of them without. without the party, without the family, because the Creole family kind of sucks. I just think Jamie's performance of that, the horror, the humanity, the desperation. Just in his eyes alone is, you know, the quivering as he's sort of like physically fighting off something that's restraining him. I just, I was captivated.

I thought it was so, so good. I wrote quivering down in my notes a lot as well. The shaking, shuddering breaths. You know, we had seen him stand at the face of that cave before. We had heard Max, use similar language to like what Will is saying here about. He's afraid. He's terrified.

He's afraid. But the version of it that we got here, the way that it was completely undoing him to stand on the brink of confronting this again, was really arresting to watch. Like you said, we'll talk about because we get the glimpse. and then the full thing later. We'll talk about all of the particulars about our rock and our spin-hound. Rogue scientists. And our rogue scientists later.

I thought that to your point about like the kind of the barrier of this memory, this was interesting to me, like that it, of course, it is also still, yes, there's the trauma and that is real and the terror. But this idea that there was this like literal, the barrier that he, that was stopping him and then he had to fight through the kind of like grabbing of his stomach, the, the clawing. The kind of parallel there. Incredible wig work, honestly. The wig is coming unraveled and just sort of hanging in his face.

Some amazing, like shaggy strands there. You know, we see many times in this finale and across the season the way that 11 is trying to like claw forward against the force of the side of catch hogs. And so like, you know, a parallel there of just the visual nature of trying to break through something or someone who was trying to stop you. I thought was interesting. Is it the first time we've called it? The Sonic Hedgehog, because that's the first time that the name Hedgehog has made sense to me.

So this happens. Will's like, you know, he's hurt, all this sort of stuff like that. Everyone's still kind of staying, Robin's like, can you stop him with your powers? Just like, everyone's still kind of staying there. And then at last, Mike and Lucas and the rest of them start running towards the pain tree, which is actually the Mindflayer upside down. Okay. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus.

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at Whole Foods Market. Meanwhile, and we've avoided it for as long as we can. Meanwhile, sigh, the military. I just want to echo what you said earlier. None of this works for me. Like, absolutely none of it. You know, Kay and her... We're like, this will probably lead to a mutiny. It did. Nobody cared.

You know, Akers just like, she's got a complex. Didn't care. Doesn't matter. Who gives a shit? Like, he's just like, he could have gone in with Kay's approval or not, it didn't matter at all, ultimately. Kay or Goose tracked down Vicky and Max after Radio Shack inspo leaves them first to Erica and Mr. Clark. Good detective work. Baffling.

Looking at a short-form radio weekbox that just happened to be like the one thing that's just survived. I was not a smaller. I will say the radio shack has been prominently there the whole time. So at least there was that. But I was just like, based on what? I know. Any excuse to think about Bob, great.

I mean, the fact that that like, this is the opening of the episode is, basically like K and a couple dudes we don't know, which was a worrying choice. I was like, oh my God. How much time are we going to have to spend with these guys? When we shift, again, I've already mentioned, leaving the squawk van below where Erica and Mr. Clark are hiding. Not a thing that I think makes a lot of sense for characters that's smart.

But did I enjoy the like, the real shit hasn't started yet. Erica, language, please. This is an intro to science. This situation demands cussing, yes. And I would say, this is another spinoff I would watch, by the way. The like. Erica, Mr. Clark. Yeah, intro to science actually is the like, let's go save the world.

The situation demands casting group. Great stuff. They're the best. They're the best. Flip side of that is acres and is goods, which is worse. They, wow, I even murdered the note here. Hedgehog Sonic waves and I didn't put it together. You had to put Sonic in front of Hedgehog for me to really feel it there.

Okay. They come into the Hawkins lab because they've gone rogue, I guess. Murray gets to blow up a helicopter. That's fun. I did have a second. So I made a bet with someone about who would die in the finale. And I won, by the way,

because the bet was just simply, do Dustin and Steve survive? And I said yes, and this person said, no. So I won. Those are the simple stakes. But my final death prediction was Callie dies

and maybe Murray dies so it's not just one young brown woman who dies in the finale. We'll get to the 11th, the 11 complication is the complication, but this was a moment where I was like, is Murray going to jump off that roof with that explosive and sacrifice himself? He seemed too gleeful in his execution for that to be that moment. But there was a second where I was like, oh, am I going to be right about both deaths?

And I wasn't. But that's fine. Murray gets a blow up a helicopter. He does. This show loves an exploding helicopter. We obviously got a big exploding helicopter in season four. Here's another one. I thought this was decent payoff for Murray's season-long smuggler obsession with not just weapons, but grenades specifically.

Yeah. Everyone gets a moment in the finale, right? Joyce gets to chop off Beckner's head. Blah, Marie gets a blow up a helicopter. Love this for him. Good for him. Hopp picks up 11 and just ditches Tully in the hallway. This is so bad.

This is so bad. Tell me Hop defender how you felt in this moment. No, no, no. Hop, someone who is drawn to magnetically pulled toward Hopper as though a hole has been blown into the ball of the upside down and I am being sucked into space as I am being sucked toward him. That is how I feel about that Hopper.

There's something about him that is a discapable to me. This was so, so, such a tough one for my guy Hop. Of course, we've been primed for something even worse because he made his... It's like, I'll fucking kill her. As we discussed, it's very concerning. Yeah.

I'll just kill her if I ask for speech. Leaving her, did he go back because Elle sent him? He did. And it didn't take much convincing. He did go back and I was very glad that that happened. But I also believe that Hop, who's a big strong guy, could have baked both of those small women up.

There is no question. And he could have lifted that book. And he was just like, he was just like, bye. It was horrible. Okay. So, Akers come in, he's got a gun at. Collie. I did like this final moment between Collie and Hoff where they like silently agree, we're not going to give up Elle.

So kill me. And Hop's like, oh, I was planning to do it anyway. So he's saving me a bullet. Right. So, but because of Murray's work with a helicopter and Elle fighting against the hedgehog, she shows up in time to make Acres blow his own brains out, which sometimes when Elle kills people, I'm like, this one I was like, okay, I hated this character. This is fine for me. I thought this was so dark. Like she, because we know that she.

Very dark. She snaps all the necks. Her signature move. Her favorite. The extra relish of forcing him to draw the gun to... I was okay with it. But I hear you because I was like, is this okay? And then I was like, I'm okay with it.

But I did have a more. I was like, okay. She has cracked a lot of necks and exploded a lot of brains and eyeballs. It's not like this is the most time we've seen. Eleven do something. Very dark and very violent, but it was like, boy, okay. It was a lot. Okay.

But too late for Collie, right? she's got been gut shot. And then the camera follows hop out into the hallway. So we have plausible deniability for Mike's story at the end that maybe we do not see Collie die here. Right. And when he comes back, the implications that she's dead and whether or not she's just like sort of playing dead or it's illusion magic or whatever it is.

Right. That. So I mean, we've been dancing around it, whatever. I just say, I believe this. I believe. I choose to believe. I choose to believe. Same.

Mike's story makes a lot of sense to me. It's something, it also happens to corroborate a prediction I had, so that's always fun for me. Yeah. But I choose to believe. So I believe that we are out with Hopper in the hallway so we don't see Colley die here so that we can get Mike's story later. I think that's right. Yes. I'm excited to talk about, to talk about that moment with the party.

And actually, like, whether or not it's true, I actually love that it exists. I love, I love that. I think it's a great decision. Same. Eleven decides to Mario bounce her way up to the abyss. I also wrote Mario Blockjump. I also wrote that. It's great stuff.

I just made me really out of having seen that. I know, like with the boing, boeing sound effects. I would have loved it. And essentially says goodbye to Hopper before she goes. This is her last conversation with Hopper because he's not in the truck with them. He doesn't talk to her, you know, once they get on the other side of the Rift. So when I was a kid, I'm going to read it and then I'm going to tell you, let you tell me how you feel about it.

When I was a kid and you found me in the woods, I was scared, really scared. And I didn't understand the world. I didn't understand people. You took me in, raised me, protected me. You became my dad. But I'm not a kid anymore. And I'm not Sarah, as is my favorite line. I'm not Sarah.

She didn't have a choice to make, but I do. And I need you to trust me to make the right choice. I need you to believe. in me. And then she hands him back Sarah's hair tie, which she's had on her wrist in season two. I, for all my hop feelings, whatever, I loved this. I thought this was really good. Same. I have a choice to make. And you do trust you to make the right choices. So she's like, I am, I am an empowered, activated person with my own thoughts and feelings and my own decisions. And I'm making this choice here. And like she has, if we choose to believe Mike's story,

which I do. I believe. She has already made. the choice with Kali to do this illusion magic later. So she's not just talking about her choice to Mario bounce up to the abyss. She's talking about to leave. And so she's prepping him for the acceptance that he's going to have to come to in the ultimate decision she makes. And all of the, you know, I'm not Sarah. I'm not a fragile, vulnerable thing that you lost. I am a person who's making a choice.

and I just really I really liked all this and I thought Millie Bobby Brown's performance here was really, really good and yeah so tell me your thoughts and feelings about it. I also thought this was beautiful. Do you think if we had seen an L jump on the Pandora floating rocks, the Mario blocks, would a mushroom have come out?

Would we have gotten an extra life? Like, is that what happened? We got a green mushroom extra life. She hits a star and she's like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. As she like jumps and tucks and tucks and rolls and like rips him down from inside the mind flare. Yeah, why not? Why didn't we get to see that? I don't understand that. I also thought this is a,

this is a Sega property. This is a Sonic the Hedgehog property, not a Nintendo property. I also thought that this was great. The flashes of the footage, you know, especially like this really rich stretch for them in season two, the woods, the lessons in the cabin, hop dancing, like, It just sends a jolt through your heart to see that again in the context of this conversation of this moment. We talked about this when we covered episode four. Neither of us liked the hot death fake out, but we talked about how I was like, I was really like, despite not appreciating the death fake out, I was on the edge of my seat waiting for 11 to scream, dad, like for us to hear that for the first time.

I thought like, oh my God, are we about to hear that? this quieter you became my dad more personal utterance of that for the first time worked even better for me than it would have in that moment I was really glad that they waited to give that to us here I also was quite moved by the payoff of

the bracelet and I think it's not a rejection right it's not you know what could be more last of us coded than this literally I'm not your daughter Yeah, exactly. Like, it's not a cold or hurtful.

I'm not her. It's this, like, I thought very earnest and sincere reminder. You can love me like your kid and I do love you like my dad, but you can't make the mistake of thinking I'm someone I'm not. You know, like the respect that you owe me is to see who I am. And, like, I thought that that was so important for 11 to be able to really articulate in full to hop here. It's... I think especially, sorry, especially like...

especially when you think about like a conversation she has with Mike in the void later which is like you've always seen you know who I am. Part of that to me because I choose to believe is her being like

you're going to figure this out. Yeah. You're going to, because you know who I am you will understand what I'm actually doing here eventually. But also that just sort of like you saw me

and see, so to hop here, see me, see who I am. I am. And and this goes back to the email that we got from Nicole at the top that we read at the top of the podcast, which is just sort of like for people who feel unseen again and again and again, for people who feel like what they have to contribute is unacknowledged or underappreciated.

Like, see me, see, we can be heroes sort of thing. So, yeah. Yeah. I'm getting choked up. Like, she does give Hop the gift of you became my dad. And he is, her love for him is here. but this is like this is the fully realized version

of the thing I was saying we were like building toward where it's like this is about her right and it has to be that's the only thing that would feel right like her appeal to him here which is I think again gentle and heartfelt

it's loving but it's also like it's a loving challenge right it's like it's time to do the thing that you keep telling me you're going to do believe in me trust me treat me the way that you know I deserve to be treated and that you're just like

you're afraid because you're afraid because you're afraid of losing me, but allowing me to do this thing means that you love me for all of the things that make me who I am. And I think, like, it's Hopps' opportunity to finally follow through in full, you know, to give Elle the thing that she deserves,

which is like the opportunity to set her own course and to make the future that she wants to make, not the future that he or anybody else thinks that she should. So I thought this was great, obviously crucial. There are a list of final character beats and moments that they couldn't fuck up at the end, And this is one of them. Hops goodbye.

11's goodbye to hop. 11's goodbye to hop. This is one of them. I think if this had not been executed well, it would be pretty devastating. I agree. And like you, even if you thought like she's not going to make it or she's not, you know, like, we didn't know that this was the final scene that they were going to share together when watching it. Even though it, okay, what I liked about it is it kind of feels that way, but not in a way that, like, sometimes

can be like annoyingly telegraphed where you're like, this is clearly the last conversation these two characters are going to have because it's so focused on like, let me do this thing right now. You know what I mean? And so it's not like a

goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye until you find out, we the viewers find out it is the goodbye, goodbye, okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost as always the opposite of like, you know, McBain, like,

there's no promise of a thing here that they're going to share. Right. That's setting us up for being deprived of that. Right. It was a very assured conversation and a strong performance from Millie here. Millie, great stuff. All right, Vecna and Henry and won and Will and the Mindflayer.

Yeah. Could I have done all of the Henry stuff together? I could have, but why not take another opportunity to talk about doing to Kim Power and what a legend he is? I think it's a story. I think Maxim Blatt, who is the young actor who they cast as Henry Creel, is also extremely good in this sequence. And Noah Schnapp is also here. Okay, so echoed across young Henry, adult Henry, and Will, we get this like triple-mirrored, like, flinch back with the hand moment. And which I'm choosing to believe is a back-to-the-future reference, but it doesn't have to be, but that is what I immediately thought of.

But I just, watching Henry watch his young self and physically feel the things that happened to his young. self was so important. We're going to talk about a Jamie quote about this in a second that I just thought was really amazing. Will makes this tearful impassioned direct-to-camera plea, which for me hit directly in the Childlike Empress Never-ending Story. Did you? Yeah. Okay. So in the Never-Earning story, if you've never seen it, towards the end of the film, the character, the Childlike Empress is talking to the character Bastion who's like actually in a different world altogether. But she's struck, she goes, she breaks the fourth wall and looks directly at the camera. And as part of that, I was rewatching that scene just to make sure that I wasn't like cuckoo bananas and feeling like a visual comp.

But in that scene, she says to Atreou, a different character. By the way, watch the never-ending story if you never have. But she's talking about Bastion. And she says, he doesn't understand that he's the one who has the power to stop. But he simply can't imagine that one little boy could be that important. And then in the direct camera, she says, why don't you do what you dream? Bastion. And then later, I get a moon child.

Okay. But anyway, who, simply can't imagine that one little boy could be that important. Yeah. And it's just like, this is Will. This is 11. This is Henry. Like, Henry does have the power to stop this. But like when Henry, you know, and we get this flashbag where the rogue scientist, oh, by the way, really quickly, the rogue scientist, again, he does not have a character name.

Maybe he'll get one in the in the spinoff, but is played by an actor Fred Kohler, who was on an 80s sitcom that I loved, Kate and Allie and had like, I saw someone references somewhere. They're like, I wonder if they cast Fred Kohler because he was like one of the ultimate bull cut kids of the 80s. And I'm like, I'm like, I wonder if that's true. Caden Alley was a show that I absolutely loved and I didn't recognize him from that. But I thought that was really fun. But anyway, like, you know, the scientist says you must. resist it will consume you, it will consume all, and then little Henry just like poofs

his mind into smoke. It's so good. It's so scary and good. Just like blinks the amount of existence and then like has this horrified reaction to it. And again, like, yeah, foreshadow people kind of knew that this happened and what happens to how Henry gets from that

to torturing animals and spiders and jars and all the things that happened. in season four is part of what Fras Shadow is about. So, like, that story, more of that story exists on a stage show that many of us can't access, but it does exist and maybe we'll be filmed and put on Netflix someday

or something like that. I don't know. But Will is saying things like, you were just a kid, a kid like me, and it used you, it used you to bring it here. You're like me, Henry, a vessel, but you can resist it. Help us fight. Don't let it win, right? This very, like,

Bastion, do what you dream, sort of thing. And then Henry gets this response, which we already alluded to, right? It has never controlled me and I never controlled it. Don't you see William? I could have resisted it, but I chose to join it. It needs me and I need it. We are one. Chills.

Duffers. Chills. Great fucking chip. As the paint tree is, you know, transforming. And I mean that in the 80s. these toy sense like into the mind flare. Again, you and I weren't shocked by this because we talked a lot about how that thing looked like an upside-down spider, but it was a coolest shit execution of it.

It was really, really cool. This lack of a face turn for Henry, which I want to hear your thoughts on in a second. It's really interesting. But before we do that, I want to read this quote from Jamie, right? He says, quote, and this is a, you know, the Netflix blog. Log site to dim has like a lot of these. I really hate saying to dumb, but that's what it's called. The sound that, anyway.

Has a lot of great interviews. This is one that Jamie game, right? And he says, he finds a briefcase with a black rock that pours into his hand and changes everything. This is the line that comes. It's the reason he lost his youth, his childhood, his love, his heart. Then Will comes into the mind and tells him he can resist. But Henry says, quote, no, it just show me that this world is broken, that

man is broken. End quote. It was the first moment in season five. I truly felt human again and understood him. I felt like I've been wanting to protect him all this time because I felt like all the people just hate him. And it was in that moment that I was like, now you see, now you see why I am. I loved this quote from Jamie.

It really helps underline to me why his performance is so good, this like effort he made to really, really understand and empathize with Henry. This is something that people who play villains talk about. but all the time was like you need to empathize with your character. Even if you're playing a horrible villain, you have to be on your character's side because there's no other way to perform that character if you're not doing that. So like Jamie taking that to the extreme, talking as he has in interviews, talking about going to watch First Shadow and like digging into Henry's story inside of that play.

As you and I talked about in a previous podcast episode, Jamie showing up to perform in First Shadow on Broadway, like just sort of like how inside of Henry Creel he has, made his performance is so good. And then the fact that, like, it's too late for Henry. Yeah. Which, again, I was, I felt some predictions are right. Some predictions are wrong. Hold your theories loosely.

I felt so sure we were going to get a Henry faith. That some shard of humanity in Henry would come through and push back against the mind flare, which is this thing that has possessed in which the stage show makes, like, a bit clear. it is clear to people who watch the finale. So, yeah. But this idea that, like, it wasn't controlling me. I wasn't controlling it. It's interesting, watching a behind the scenes of the production designers

talking about creating the paint tree. And one of them said something like, this is how Henry is puppeteering this structure. So him being sort of, like, you know, hooked into it as he was before 11 comes in and rips him down. Yeah. So, like, him in as the engine of this, But it still goes after he's ripped out of it.

So it's not really just like a puppeteering. It's a symbiotic relationship. It's like an I feed you, you feed me sort of thing. And it's just too late. We are one, which is like a clever great wordplay in terms of like the Henry Vecna one thing. But I found this like a really satisfying mindflare reveal. And a really character rooted enriching depth of understanding humanity inside of a monster moment inside of this story, which is, I think some of the great heights of this episode

are like this and then the epilogue. And all of that has to do with character and emotion. So it really worked for me. I loved it. Same. I thought that this was spectacular. To pan out of the scene for a minute and into the discussion around the finale and the interviews and what we've learned since the finale aired, I will say before returning to the scene, I don't know if and I'm paraphrasing. The spin-off is about the rock is like... Yeah. So interesting to me.

Now, while I be there on day one, of course, I'm a little puzzled by this for a number of reasons, honestly, but like... It's a new place, it's all new characters. It's a different mythology, but it's this rock that proved so crucial to the final moments of, like, the finale is. Dimension.

Oh, that's... You know what it's giving castball dagger, honestly? Which, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, I mean, I understand the impulse because they really want, you know, in interviews before they revealed that it was this earlier in the season, people are like, can you allude to? And they're like, there's one scene in the finale that'll make it clear what the spinoff is about. And then people are like, will we see any of the characters that are in the show right now? And he's basically, they were basically like, no, that's going to be hard. We can't explain why.

And to me, I was like, oh, prequel. So, like, they're doing a prequel essentially because they do want, again, until Stranger Things gets rebooted in three years, they do want. these stories of these characters to be done. And I kind of understand that because I think, no matter what happens, they're handing it off, right? They've made a new lucrative deal. And while they're producing things for Netflix, they're not going to be the showrunners.

And I don't think, I can understand not wanting, like, the Steve Harrington show to not be one, like, to not be one you're running day to day, but the spooky, uki black rock show, you're like, go with God and run with that mythology. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I did like that we got the like, you know,

the Montauk mentioned from Hopper Joyce for a number of reasons, but that kind of wink to like the original idea for the show. And then you have a moment where you're like, is that going to be the spinoff? And then it's very clear from their comments. Literally, I mean, literally, they're like, that will not be the spinoff, but also it won't be these characters.

So that's, I'm curious to see where that all goes. In terms of the rock itself. And what happens with that? I did think the design was pretty cool, the kind of like, the veining, the kind of like neon pink orange, like very like rift gate

of like visual. I was thinking of the rocks in Temple of Doom, you know, like the rocks that have the like the scarring on them and the glowing aspect of it. Yeah, yeah. I thought that it was interesting

to give us something that was like visually distinct with this rock but then had some kind of visual continuity with the rifts in terms of this idea of like it's different mythology but clearly connected in some way.

Yeah. That's interesting. I thought that the way that it absorbed into, not just into Henry, but specifically into the woods, The bullet wound was really interesting. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It makes you think it's like, would that have, would it have claimed him? Like, does it need blood? Is it have, like, that you have participated in some violent moment? Like, what exactly is it preying upon something that's already inherent to who you are? Or some, a moment, a choice, because obviously choice is so central and action that unfolds. The way that the tendrils kind of, when it, like, constituted the tendrils, like, the very, like, veiny, wormy, like, look kind of makes its way into, vine-like into his wound. That was all interesting.

I thought that the flash of the before it had been shaped into the spider form, the kind of cloud, very smoky smoke monster that we had previously glimpsed, obviously. I think the audio work on the like, Find Me sort of... The multiple voices, there's like the deep voice and then there's the kind of high, like, hissing.

Yeah. Yeah, that was really cool. It gave me kind of like three-eyed raven, like, look for me. Beneath the tree vibes. but like very ominous and more ominous form, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was interesting.

And then I also loved the line you already read that you must resist, that it will consume you, it will consume all rogue scientist moment. When Henry's eyes widened in terror there and then we flash and we see the mind flyer into us, the more familiar now spider form, that got my mind racing in a fun way that I like. I'm like, did it show Henry? Is that there for us or for Henry? Is it showing Henry a shape that it, he will feel? form it into in the future, like what kind of paradox stuff is happening there in a story about

choice and what came first. That's really interesting. The misery of the music, yeah. Exactly. I liked all that. That was interesting. In terms of the lack of a face turn, Will's appeal, what Henry says, I thought this was really good and I really loved it. The performance is a huge part of that, but just thematically in terms of what happened here, I think that the important thing, obviously we talked about this a lot heading into the finale, but like to me what felt like, it needed to happen was that the characters extend this opportunity to him, that will or 11 or whomever make this plea to him, like give him that try, try for some remorse moment.

That felt like it needed to happen, and I'm glad it did, and that feels right, to appeal to the humanity inside, to recognize, as we hear will say, that Henry was a used-abused kid, just like him, just like L. All of that needed to be there. I'm glad we got it. I really like that we got the like, no, it showed me the truth. I chose to join it.

Because I think there's a little bit of a, especially in a show that is so drenched and rooted in Star Wars influences, et cetera, a little bit of a subverting maybe our expectation of a redemption arc that I appreciate. But I think there's also just like it felt really potent to me given how much of the finale, for all the characters, this is true, but particularly for 11, how much of the here at the end of all things centers on choice that we get. at Henry's version of that. And a choice could have been, could have gone in either way. But like, because it was a choice, an active one,

and we're hearing about how he thinks about the choices that he's made in the past, but then also he is making a choice again in the present, that yet another parallel that is also ultimately a divergence of there before the grace, as you noted, felt really, really right to me at the end. So I dug this. I really dug it. That Jamie line where he says he lost his love, he lost his heart. It reminded me of one of my favorite fairy tales.

It's actually my sister's favorite, but like sort of by association, a favorite of mine. Growing up was the Snow Queen, which is about, you know, these two friends, a boy and a girl, and the boy gets like basically taken by the Snow Queen, and she puts a shard of ice in his heart. And it eventually just sort of like numbs him to human emotion. And his friend has to like basically melt the shard of ice in his heart to get him back. And so this idea that like this smoke monster lost, we love you always. Always. This shard invaded Henry.

And again, if you watch for shadow, this is a process. It's not a like he blew that scientist's brains out. And then he's evil. It's like a slow corruption, essentially. And so like that idea of like this shard inside of him that just eats his humanity out of him. And there's still a little left enough for him to have this conversation

of Henry, but most of him has been eaten up by the mind flare. He's been flayed. And I just thought it was very good. Okay. Then we get the party versus the mind player. We've already talked about a lot of this. So I'm going to cut to

the plan, which is Nancy who is a badass, but has very little legs, is going to somehow outrun the mind flare. and baited into a crevice while the rest of the party scales some, I would say, quite sizable cliffs in the matter

in mere seconds, mere minutes, right? She started shooting also as bait before they had taken off and trying to get in position. Here's what I do like. Nice symmetry with the mineflare attack on Starcourt mall like them having the sort of pie around

around, great stuff. Toss and fireworks and here we've got flameflowers and Lucas back on slingshot duty, as it should be, great. Hit points, nice D&D, DNA and the final attack. The Flamethrower, like Seekole, Mallory, wanted to see that flamethrower in action, and Jonathan delivered. Dustin and Steve gooping it up for Eddie. Will gets to do his sorcerer pose one last time.

I thought that was phenomenal. It still hits. I hope Noah uses it at parties for the rest of his life. I think it looks great. Two things I didn't like. Tell me. I hate a crevice. Yeah, abhor a crevice.

And Nancy's in the mother of all crevices. It's tough, tight spot. She is also pelting the mind flare with bullets, etc. When the kids are in there, and I just had some questions about that. Will said, that is where he's keeping the kids. I saw it in my mind. So they need. know that the kids are in there and they're just absolutely peppering that thing with bullets,

et cetera, et cetera. I just have no concern about that. Just some question. So that's where I sit on the I'm of two minds of this mind-flayer plan here. Yeah. Same. I was very distracted with worry about the kids inside of the mind-flair as our party was attacking it in every way possible.

And I thought it was quite weird. In general, I thought it's an action set piece and a visual. set piece, this was like gobsmacking. I thought it looked great. The multiple like wide pans and sort of side profile shots that just really like, you know, the duffers have talked about how many video game influences are present here. And you can certainly feel that too, but there were multiple shots that really gave me in a great way, like comic book splash page or like end game, you know. Eleven like flying up. Yes. So tiny. Tiny L. from the side. and then like the direct on

the comic book splash page is a great way to reference it. And I've said it on the podcast before, but I often think of it as like painted on the side of a van. Yeah. This is just like one of those just like visuals where it's just like sick. And also, and I put this in the notes,

I wonder if almost the entirety of the wig budget went to this VFX shot because it looks amazing. And it helps me understand why, I don't know, the blue screen behind the needle at the beginning of the season looks stupid or whatever. I'm like, if they were saving their dollars to this moment, they spent them well because it looks fantastic.

Yeah, I mean, this looks better than like a lot of movies look. Like the effects here were incredible. I also was thinking of StarCourt Mall and I like that symmetry. I like that we found a way to call back to every season in some meaningful way here at the end. That was really fun. On the kids' front being inside, there was like, yeah, Nancy firing, but also like just all of the, we're burning this thing. When Elle ripped the whole, you think she's kind of. going to go for the mouth when she's jumping.

And then she rips the hole in the chest and jumps her. And I was like, that's fucking sick. And then as soon as she landed, she cut back in down. I was like, this is, this is sick. Into the tuck and roll. No quipping. Just going. Incredible stuff.

But I was like, what if a child had been plugged in in exactly that spot? Why is nobody worried about that very odd? However, it's clear the Gatorade is working. So if they went for Gatorade, great stuff. What if she had ripped through Thomas in order to get to the center of the mindset? Listen, for the crowd is like we needed to see more. Should Thomas have been ripped in half?

We're just here to ask questions. We're just here to ask questions. We're just here to ask questions. Inquiry. Like Nancy dropping out of school, we just want to get in our journalism work. Exactly. Who's on the crowd.

It's on the ground reporting, just asking some questions. Yeah. I thought that, you know, especially right after the, you know, the Henry, like, we are one moment. Again, the kind of counterweight to this is that the demo,

the demos are not here. No demo, not a demogun, a demo bat, a demo anything in sight. it diminished some of the we're building toward what we think is going to be this massive hive mind sequence at the end in a way that I feel really I will not stop thinking

as odd and no one will convince me is not odd. However, I think the Mike reminding everyone like the hive mind works in both ways if we hurt the mind flare, we hurt Vecna, L is fighting Bechna, that's hurting the Mindflare. The payoff for the symbiosis in the final battle in that front of the connection between Vecna and the Mindflare

was, I guess, effectively incorporated into the battle. And Vecna and Will. So that was fun. I like when I tossed some dirt into Vekna's face. Whenever a character does that, we're like, why don't more characters do that, you know? Will learning his lessons from last night,

don't go for the ankle, go for the, just rip the arm off. Still going to go for the neck, but then what would Joyce have had to do in the finale? Great point. A lot of people, seem to be displeased with this as like a final battle sort of moment that it happened too fast, it was too easy for them, stuff like that. I don't really feel that way. I do kind of wish

the destruction of Henry had been a bit more psychologically pegged to Henry. Instead, it's pegged to Will's, I'm not afraid anymore, we're not afraid of you, right? And we're cutting We are not afraid of you. And there are ways in which this is like a good evolution of the shame and terror and torment that will and various others have been gripped with in season one. And they're shaking that off. And they're like, we can fight this, right? We can be heroes.

I'm not running anymore. All that sort of stuff. It might have been the delivery. I don't know. It just like I wanted a little bit more emotion or psychology or heart inside of that. But everyone working together, everyone having a role to play except for a murder. and Hopper just sitting in the lab, I guess, and Vicky and Max,

who've got got at this point. But everyone having something to do, you know, that matters. Luke is saying we're going to need the party, the whole party, like at the beginning of the season. Like, that's really good stuff. I will, unfortunately, quote the labyrinth at you, not for the last time.

This is one of the iconic quotes from the labyrinth, which I've quoted part of, but I'm just going to give you the full one this time because we got the full never-running story. We're going to give you the full labyrinth. through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City to take back the child that you have stolen for my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom is great. You have no power over me. And that being the like death blow to a villain

is just sort of something that I just think is always going to hit for me. And I just want to shout on our listener, Megan, who emailed and pointed out to us that this June is the Labyrinth anniversary. Oh. And it's coming back to movie theaters. Just something to think about it. I'm just asking questions. It's the Labyrinth's anniversary year.

I'm in. Is it time for you to experience David Bowie in a whole other dimension? It sounds like it. I have no follow-up questions. It sounds like the answer to that. It's just an absolute yes. Did this feel like emotionally, thematically resonantly satisfying for you? I'm a little mixed on this as a final battle.

I think, again, the design, the execution of the effects, I thought that was really cool. I think I'm in a very similar place to it that you are. Like, when Dustin and Steve, you know, basically pull a slicing of Shilab and, like, you know, say this is for Eddie, you son of a bitch. I'm like, let's fucking go. When, you know, the poorer crevice,

but when like the mind flares basically just looks like a dinosaur for a second, poking a snout. And I'm like, the way that the influences that mean so much the duffers bear fruit in the finale, I'm like, let's go, right? That stuff's all really cool. I think that the, I'm not, I do think that they won a little too easily. And part of that is that the demigorgans were not there. And that just doesn't make sense.

Part of it is I'm like, I don't, I mean, yeah, Joyce chops his head off. And we'll talk about that more in a second. And that was, that was cool and fun. But like, I don't know. I was thinking back a lot to like the attic fight, the Kriel Mansion attic fight in season four and the damage that he took. And I think also there's like, you know,

some of this is it sends you into a fun theory place where it's like, okay, Holly is freed and barfs up the particles and they escape. When the other kids are freed, we'll talk about that more in a minute as something that did really work. It worked very beautifully. They're coughing up the particles.

The particles are escaping. There's this interesting aspect of like the form of the mind. mind flare at this point has died, right? Like the beating heart, the pulsing heart has shriveled. They've not yet decapitated Vecna. So it's like when he dies, do the particles all die to? Or are the particles lingering on anchoring the mind flare like to some form of life

and also to a spin-off? Like that's, I don't know. Like that's kind of interesting and I think not totally clear, but in a maybe compelling to theorize about way. I think a question a lot of people have is about in terms of hive mind is like Will, like why didn't Will die or whatever? I would have liked to have seen Will cough up some particles. That would have been satisfying to me, for sure.

Some questions of the end about all the hive mind stuff. In terms of what you're saying, though, about the party, that part did work for me quite well. The fact that it is this pretty much full team up that, of the people who are here in this location, everyone except Joyce is doing something, and Joyce's moment will come shortly. You know, we talked so much throughout our rewatch of like, we both love that moment in season one where Dustin calls back to the Bloodstone Pass lesson, right? Like, do you even remember what happened on the Bloodstone Pass? We couldn't agree on what path

it takes. We split up the party and those trolls took us out one by one and it all went to ship and we were all disabled. So we stick together no matter what. For the conclusion, the mechanics of the battle, the logistics of the battle, I have some questions and some notes. For that thematic heft to hit us so hard at the end, for it to be the team up of the party and everyone, whether it's a flare gun, you fire into a wrist rocket, grenade, gasoline balloon

that someone threw or you're using your superpowers or anything in between. Everybody had a role to play, and that's why they were able to do this, that the real edge that they have is their community, is their party. That was great and I liked it. I also really liked,

in the joy stretch that is that we're about to hit, I really liked that we flashed to a moment for every character, you know, that we see, because they're watching this. Except, I think, for Steve and Robin,

where I was like, must be nice to have a traumatic flashback moment. One degree of removal and separation. You know, the like, Joyce is taking, and I, you know, you fucked with the wrong family. It's okay. What's like Joyce is here for a reason.

You were a shit witch boy. You're a shit witch boy. You're a fuck for the wrong family. I know who you are. Wasn't giving me how many strokes is it going to take first beyond to chop Roderick's head off? It was. But by the way, if she'd done it in one blow, people would have been like, oh, Joyce couldn't Exactly. And what it did, first of all, it makes sense. But second of all, it allowed for everybody to really sit there and watch and let their blood loss seep into every root and fiber of their being and for us to get the flashes. Holly flashes back to the Demogorgon and Karen. Jonathan flashes back to Will being possessed in season two and Lucas to Max in the attic in season four and Nancy to Barb. So Barb was here at the end.

Yeah, you can jump scare to see Barb here at the end. I've never been thinking of you more during the finale and then when Barb showed up. Same. You know, we've got some Dustin and Eddie stuff in here. We have Mike losing L in the season one finale. We have L saying to Henry and, you know, he did not, or Henry saying, you know, he did not make me into this.

You did pop up, the tank, the massacre, Will and the demo taking him in season one, the field in season two, hugging, Joyce and crying. The fact that like this reminder of not just the reason everybody has because their loved ones have been imperiled in some way harmed in some way, but like the personal toll, the way that Vecna had touched each of their lives and harmed them both individually and collectively and like the toll and the mass, the sheer mass of that pain and that trauma, I thought that was effectively rendered at the end. I would have burned

the body. Let me say this. Decapitating, great. I would have burned every fucking root and stem of that tree boy, every single one. That tree boy. Well, they blew up the upside down. So in theory, he is on fire. along with all those pregnant ladies. Doesn't that just separate the abyss in our dimension? The abyss is like intact, right? But it's low. It's low. That's true.

That's true. That's true. Okay, listen. I had something I want to say, oh, what if they, in that montage where everyone's flashing to, you know, oh, it's Bob, oh, it's Barb, oh, it's Eddie, blah, blah. What if Steve had flashed to his beamer getting sucked into the abyss? That would have been great. That would have been great.

all the time she lost to fight. The tri effect of barb, Bob of the Beamer. We'll miss you forever. I did love seeing Bob again. I know. It's great to see Bob. I agree. Bob is like the anti-barb for us, I think.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Exactly right. I don't really need to get into the reason. They have their reasons why they picked Joyce to do this. There's some silliness and contrivances about it, but like it's fine. Great. I do want to read this another Jamie.

quote about Vecna's dying words, right? He says, as I'm coughing up this bile, yes, I'm coughing, but the feeling I want to convey in the words that I'm trying to get out are just, please don't, Bauer says. It was one more of the human moments playing Vecna. So he talked about being on that spike, you know, and he was like, yeah, when it came in and we just talked about bands and we were just like hanging out and talking about musicians to be like, but when it comes to that like, that moment he was trying to convey like please don't via gurgles.

And I just, I like that for all of this. Great work from Jamie as always. I did, I got a kick out of this. And like, I have to say, I admire and appreciate Vecna's Flair for drama. The protracted prolonged nature of the gurgle coughs be like, you all will look at me once more. God damn it. Got to respect it. I know that for research for the Buffy Vampire Slayer TV show, watch, you watch

Buffy the Vampire Slayer the movie, and that is one of my all-time favorite Paul Rubin's protracted vampire death. All very good. Okay. Great stuff. Q the Prince, right? Yes. Dustin says the whole party. That got me.

Even though, like, we're about to go through this whole thing with 11, him saying the whole party to Hopper. Yeah. Very emotional. Gaten's very good in that moment. Mallory. Mm-hmm. What did you think of Purple Rain, 1984, vinyl from 1984, which, so the deafers have talked about this. Prince is tough to get for, we've never heard Purple Rain used as a needle drop in something.

This is the first time it's being used. They were looking for an album. I guess I didn't understand when Robin and Mike were talking about this that they needed like a whole side of a disc. Right. I was thinking it was one track, but they wanted a whole album. And so the Duffers wanted something that started with a quote, celebratory song and ended with a weighty track. And they came up with Purple Rain 1984, which side A starts with when Doves Cry and ends with bucket Purple Rain. I'll say this.

Here's my journey through this. And then they said the reason they were able to get the Prince tracks was because of what they did with Kate Bush and running up the hill. And they were just sort of like they could get anything they want, essentially at this point. Because they're like, look what we did over there. we can do this for your sales with Purple Rain. And I will say this. I put Purple Rain on Spotify the other day. And then Spotify, the Spotify AI was like,

do you want to listen to Windows Cry? And now do you want to listen to Heroes by David Bowie? And that just started doing the needle drops from the finale. So it gets it. But the Duffers picking this album side, is, I will say this, when Doves Cry started, I was like, huh.

Yeah. I was a little like, I love When Doves Cry, great song, huh. But when we hit Purple Rain, I was just in Chambles. It was absolutely phenomenal shit. Yeah.

I thought this was great, inspired, genuinely surprising. You know, we had speculated, like, what do we think we'll hear at the end and then maybe a number of different spots, but this would never have occurred to us for the reason you just mentioned. This is not a thing that really happens.

Yeah. So that was fun and that was cool. I think it, I guess it makes sense that they had to use an entire record given that the part of the one of the many pitfalls of the inanity of their plan is to drive their ass out of.

Just really got to get out of it. This place blows up and we have absolutely no way to account for like someone maybe being there. What if K had just been like, don't come through? Like 11, we need you, but everyone else, you stay in there.

Because what were they expecting when they got back to that gate? I don't know. You know what it reminds me of is a movie that I love, oftentimes when I say there's a movie I love, I am tacitly recommending it to listeners. In this case, I am not doing that.

Okay. Because I don't think this is a good movie, but it's a movie I love, and it's a Hudson Hawk. And in Hudson Hawk, they have this thing where they time their robberies to a song, so they start singing the song

while they're, like, sort of slowly under the breath while they're doing it. It's so they know how much time they have. You know, this is like, we're going to do swinging on a star because that's how much time we have to do this robbery. And so I was thinking about that, again, a bad, great movie, Hudson Hawk.

But yeah, we've got one side of a record to get our asses out of Hawkins, or out of the upside down. So, yeah. When everybody is, before we hit the tire spikes. Everyone's having a good time in the truck. Everyone's having a good time. I think it's all just sunshine and gravy from here.

you know, Joyce and Willer cuddling, Robin telling Steve he smells great stuff, Nancy and Jonathan share her smile, Murray's goofing off, it's lovely. I think you noted this in your alley and this is my favorite moment of this was because we had the great, you know, when everybody pulls a kid out,

like freeze a kid in the mind flare. And Derek, Steve and had this, like, incredible moment. And Derek, who has been such a potty mouth and like, you know, these, this tough, like, little exterior with his insults and everything, he was just so vulnerable and just, like, so grateful to be rescued and just,

Steve cleaning his glasses. That's incredible. Wonderful moment. We had previously heard Derek refer to Mike Wheeler as his best friend. And so the way he waved at Mike and Mike was like, that was just great and it was funny and it was cute. But I actually thought it was just like, oh, our nerds are cool. They're the cool ones now. Mike's the Steve now.

Yeah. They're the heroes. They're the ones that the younger kids want to emulate and can't believe that they get to hang out with in the back of a truck. It's just, it was awesome. Finn's delivery of that, like, wave back that, like, the high, uh, was extremely fantastic. All right. So then we hit the spikes,

uh, this completely unforeseen, uh, military obstruction, uh, as they exit the upside down happens. And then L says goodbye or does she. Um, when she got to, so this all really, really worked for me. This goodbye in the void really, really worked for me. Again,

And then I, watching this, I was like, this is not her death. And then there was a second, like, when everything closed down and I was like, maybe they did kill her. Like, okay, good job, stranger things. And then I think they didn't, but whatever. But no matter what, this goodbye is real. This is a real goodbye. And when Millie got to the part of her performance, when she says, I need you to thank them for me. for being so kind to me

and teaching me what it means to be a friend. And Purple Rain is amazing. I was crying. I thought it was just so good. And the way they're just like desperately holding on to each other. And it's just, you know, and this reiteration of choice, which we've been talking about this whole podcast episode,

is just so good. And like, yeah, this like, I need you to understand my choice. One day you will. You understand me better than anyone you always have from the day we've met. You've seen me. The real me. And then please don't leave me out. Please don't do this. I'll always be with you. I love you. Goodbye, Mike. And it's just like, and then she pushes him. Someone made a diabolical Instagram reel that I got served of like all the times that Mike has lost 11 in every single season. You know, and especially the season one, which we flash back to when Mike is in the trauma of

what we've lost. Little Mike in the classroom thinking that Elle is gone forever at the end of season one and his bewildered screaming, you know, connected to this moment of Finn, a tall, gangly man, just like also screaming is just

this absolutely sung for me. It's just incredibly good stuff. And really just, I think, I actually think this is Millie's best performance. I agree. Maybe ever, but in a very long time for sure.

You know, I just thought this was really good stuff. I agree. This destroyed me. I was sobbing. The two lines that you read, what it means to be a friend, and you always have the real me, just broke me. And I thought the performances from both of them were wonderful here. I think that, so obviously, like, what happens here, we'll talk about, you know,

when we get to the I choose to believe stretch, we'll talk about this all more. But obviously the fact that they're in the voice. in a mindscape here is like, how is this happening if there are... It's like one of the bits of evidence that you could consider, right, when exploring the cases. So there's that.

You know, the bad babies know, like the Farst again chapter is like something that means a lot to me and it's very emotional, this idea of a character making the sacrifice, you know, any of our characters who we love, a Harry, a Frodo, a Tony, right? The list goes on and on and on.

One of the things in the farce together that always hit so hard is that when Harry doesn't go talk to Ron and Hermione one final time, you know, but then there's the turning of the stone and figures of a different sort. I just thought that this like choice to give this to Mike and Eleven, but to give this to Mike was like, I don't know, it really floored me and it really hit so hard and to hear the things that Eleven says and to see my. Emotion, you know, the real me idea, like this through line across the entire series, the monster and the superhero, Mike always being the one who would help 11 see and embrace and believe the good inside and the worth inside. And then Mike, for his part, like, this was a big part of season four, but worrying that, you know, that moment he has in season four where he's like, it's not fate, it's not destiny, it's just simple dumb luck. And one day she's going to realize that I'm just some random nerd that got lucky Superman landed on his door.

step, like the idea that 11 doesn't need him. And for 11 to make sure he understood that that wasn't true. And for the show to really like luxuriate in this idea of like, but that's what found family is. Right. It can be that dumb luck of whatever the circumstance is that brings you into somebody's

life or them into yours. And then like you choose to care about each other. Like you choose to build something together. And sometimes you don't get to keep that. And I just thought this was like beautiful. And we have the from Mike and the I love you. And the payoff of all of that. I just thought this was like really sad and really moving and really perfect for both of their characters and for their shared journey.

And a great encapsulation also of just like something we've talked about a lot over the years of covering stranger things. And just watching and thinking about stranger things, which is like how big young love can feel, you know? Like when you have that person in your life for the first time who feels like the most. most important thing in the world to you and who opens up something new for you. And like, of course it would feel devastating and terrifying to have to confront being without that. I just, it's what the show has always done so well. And I really appreciated the number of ways that we got that in this moment here. And then, of course, throughout the epilogue, I just love this. It was very, very, very, very emotional. Then I immediately am like,

why did Kay's army not like arrest everybody? They just killed all those men. But before I started thinking about that. And before I was like, is that a deep breath we hear? It sounded like a deep breath and the heartbeat and like, you know, your mind starts tracing really quickly. But for a few minutes, they're just being totally immersed in the emotion of 11 and Mike in their relationship together. I thought was just lovely. I really agree. And I hate to put a damper on it by pointing out something that the internet has been preoccupied with, which is when they blew up the upside down, Did they blow up all those pregnant ladies who were in Kay's lab in the upside down? When the whole premise that, like, Collie is like, we need to end this so that this doesn't happen again.

Do we care about these human incubators that are these actual living women who are in this lab? There's a lot floating around that says the duffers that convert and the women have died, but I can't find this quote anywhere. It's been posted everywhere. The Duffers confirmed the women died, but like without a quote, without a source. So I haven't not been able to source this definitively. It doesn't ruin anything for me, but it's just sort of, it's a tough question to be asking here in this moment of like, will never hurt these children and these women again, just accept these women. And then after that, it'll be fine, you know, so.

Absolutely horrifying to confront. horrifying. I will keep my ears and ice peels for a quote I can source from the deafers. Okay. Then we have 45 minutes of epilogue, which is exactly what we deserve. We deserve this. 18 months later. In the black screen, so we get Mike's devastated one tear rolling down his face look as the gate closes.

and you can see the other side of the building, right? The gate is just definitive closed. It's just a building now. Black, cut to black in the non-existent commercial break. And then after that, if we come back from black, someone is a bricklayer is putting bricks into place rebuilding, right? But I swear to you, you can hear a heartbeat. Before you hear the higher pitch of the bricklay,

you hear something lower and thumping, and the Netflix caption says rhythmic beating, which starts before, that caption happens before you hear the bricklaying sound and you see the bricklaying happened. So that to me, I would choose to believe anyway. I choose to believe. But I heard a heartbeat.

Same. In that cut to black. So that's... Agreed. And there's like that really deep breath right before the heartbeat too. So, yeah, I agree. To your point, I don't know why the whole entire group wasn't arrested by Dr. Kay and prosecuted for their crimes.

Perhaps they were saved by someone. We don't even know if Owens is alive. We don't know if they have any friends elsewhere in the government. We don't know. The government, as the Duffer said in an interview, the military kind of just lost interest and packed up in left town. That's what they said. Really, genuinely, that is what they said. You know, I get that they're like, okay, well, we were here for 11 and now 11's gone.

So, like, the mission is done. But they would leave all those people who killed all those soldiers? That doesn't seem likely. Do you think the party, our pals, our friends, pinned it all on Vicky, and that's why we never see Vicky again. They were like, in a barn, you will find the Turnbow family. Vicky put them there. And their crimes are legions. Vicky and the Turnbos didn't.

Well, Vicki and the Turnbos, I would listen to that band. Yeah, same. Our listener, James, says, I told my. friends, Dr. Kay had to fight a time traveling AI bot. Very funny. Great fun. Good fun. Matt, our listener, Matt, asked, who had the best new hair style 18 months from the final battle? There are so many changes, and I can't wait to hear you discuss them. Excellent segue, Matt. Into the return of Rock and Robin. Rock and Robin.

Maya Hoc gets to at last wear her natural hair. Dear God, does it look better than the wig they slapped on her all season? Looks fucking great. Her hair looks great. Hair queen of of the epilogue is Max Mayfield, obviously. And I watched a video of, and I should say, head of the hair department, who is partnered with one of the duffers, has some of the best Instagram that you've ever seen. And there has been incredible way to work on this show,

like really, really good stuff. Eddie, forever an iconic look. There's just like a lot of great stuff. There were some rough looks this season, but I did watch her sort of like finger curl Sadie Sink's hair to give the Max Mefield epilogue look. And I was just like, this is top tier shit from the hair department. Do you have a winner best hair in the epilogue?

Probably Max. I think probably Max. I was floored by Nancy's epilogue hair. It's not great. Flore. Nancy's headed into the 90s with a tough look, I would say. Oh, my God. Okay.

So thrilled to get, you know, one more Jimmy Fastands mentioned. Robbins's like, my guy left me come in for a guest appearance. And Mallory's like, where is he? My favorite character. Still waiting for the side journey log of Jimmy Fastans one day, maybe. We get the landslide, the Fleetwood Mac needle drop that thrilled Mallory to her core. There's, of course, incredibly resonant lyrics here. Yes.

I've been afraid of changing because I've built my life around you. Time makes bolder. Even children grow older. I'm getting older, too. It just made me sob, and it was like paired with these great. lines from Robin. You know, there's some of the humor the Debra Winger Rasp or like one more joke about Will's Bull Cut.

I wonder how Maya felt read. Like, I would be so honored if the Defer Brothers like described my voice as a Debra Winger Rasp. I'd be like, thank you. My God. It's just what a time to be Rock and Robin here back on the back on the mic. But like, you know,

she's talking about what has changed, right? And like, no soldiers, no fences, no cameras. People are happy and smiling and going to the movie's Last Crusade playing at the Hawk. What? No greater sign of a utopia as far as I'm concerned that Indiana Jones in the last crusade is playing.

What a movie. What a movie. And it was like even just fun to see the hawk because we think back to season one and the graffiti. It just takes you, it ports you through like your memories with the show again. But just, you know, the pairing of the end of Back to the Future when it's like, you know, what's playing at the movie theater. What's playing at the movie?

I also just thought, and more so when like Hop goes to find Mike on the bench, but just in general, every shot that we got of the town center, it was so overtly, visually, like mirrored to back to the picture there. But just this idea, and especially paired with the Fleetwood back here, of like, you know, life's moving on. And that's beautiful, but it also can be really hard and really sad. For some people, it can feel impossible, and we still have some stuff to work through on that front.

So I just loved that. And I love the way we got to learn what Steve was up to before we hear more later on the roof was that Robin had to do it. You know, Trish is going for the indie sound effect. This is the beat on the board. And that was just like, you know, and it's just like he's got to get an excuse. And we get to see him coaching the Hawkins middle team.

I think Steve could have been coaching the high school team, but he wasn't. He's coaching the Cubs. He's coaching the middle school team. And what could be more perfect than our begrudging babysitters still being with the kids? Just the best. Got all his nuggets. It's little nuggets in the box.

His coaching advice, which is no mental mistakes. Great stuff. Not like no physical, no mental mistakes. We're a ship shape in our brain. Joe Kerry posting photos of, you know, I think the captures is like in Coach Steve we trust or whatever, like posting photos with the kids with the Cubs. I saw a video. I couldn't find it to link in our nose, but I saw a video of that photo shoot happening of him taking like the team photo with the Cubs. And then Joe Ciri himself digs a camera out of his like jacket pocket and hands it to someone as if like I want my own photos of this moment, which is just like,

really a lot to me. And then Jake Connolly, dear Derek, delightful Derek himself, posted photos that the MLB reposted on the MLB official Instagram. And there's one shot of Derek with, you know, his back to the camera. And he's got his turnbow number two on his jersey. And he's just like pointing to the back of his jersey is just like great stuff. Thomas is also on the team. Fuck Thomas. But he is there. He's not in the D&D party at the end, but he is on the Cubs. So I hope that Steve. turns that kid around. Don't call Holly a bitch. Don't call Holly a bitch, okay?

Don't do it. You love landslide. I'm an agony choosing between Here Comes Your Man from the Pixies as the cue to Max's intro versus the sweet chain needle drop that we get later, which is just like, cowboy junkies, very important to me.

But this is one of the best intros that a character's ever had anywhere. Max showing up. knowing it's Max because of the skateboard but like camera pans up the white pinstripe pants incredible the sleeveless OPE

shirt incredible the hair amazing and Max and Lucas are fully grown up and definitely doing it what do you think? Absolutely no question that these two are already fucking zero zero zero question

Lucas is like you're looking super sexy right now just like you're looking super dorky they're fucking good for them. I agree that, first of all, we're just like, Max is not only standing and walking and out of the chair, but like the zoomer is back, right? She's skating? Yeah, she's skating the surfer energy of the fit, like you're noting.

It was all great. I do, I thought this was wonderful. I do have a question. How was Max graduating with the rest of the class when she was in a coma? 20 months. I saw a great Instagram reel of some guy was like, Max in her coma committed to graduate to the class and it's him like lying down with his eyes. clothes, like, doing all of his homework at the same time.

Listen, it's been 18 months. Summer school exists for a reason. And also, I don't have a lot of faith in the Hawkins school system. You know what I mean? Well, listen, I think this is really fair because obviously we know that Dustin is super smart, but I will say, not too many years ago, our guy didn't know what the word presumptuous meant. And also then later had to have his girlfriend at the time, Susie, hack into the school computers to fix his Latin grade, which was so subpar.

So I don't know that there was a lot of competition for who was going to be valedictorian in the class of 89. And so, yeah, these are fair points, but I was like surely Max will be in the audience, not graduating. Yeah, it was interesting to me that Jonathan is going to NYU, which is something that, you know, Joyce screamed at Lonnie in season one, NYU. He's always wanted to go to NYU, right? So like, Johnson's at NYU. Robinson Smith, these are great colleges. Dustin's going to school one hour away with love and respect to the schools of in the one hour away from Hawkins, Indiana. Where is he going that is like?

Did he say an hour or was it a day? I thought he said an hour. Okay, because I thought he said an hour too. So I was like saying to Adam, do we think he's a Hoosier? Is he at Notre Dame? Oh. That's a very good school. But then I thought he said, I thought he said, I'm a day away.

And then that would open up any possibility. I think he's an hour away. And that's why Steve can make. frequent like little trips over to see him. Maybe he's a Notre Dame. Great. Maybe he's in the end of Irish. Could he be at Purdue?

I mean, he could be a number of places. I think I'm just, we'll talk about where kids go to college when we talk about Buffy Season 3. But I was just like, where is our valedictorian going? Okay. When Max and Lucas are making out not for the last time in this episode, Erica hits us with genuinely my all-time favorite 80s phrase, which is, gagging with a spoon.

Something I said very often in the 80s. Not in a way that was cool or effective, but boy, did I say it. Gagging with a spoon. All right. And then we get this photo montage harketing back to the Halloween season two, taking photos of everyone in their Ghostbusters costumes, so cute. Mrs. Henderson, I am so thrilled to see you. Same.

I felt about Mrs. Henderson the way I got. expected to feel about Ted Wheeler. I felt that way about Ted Wheeler, but I really felt that way about Mrs. Henderson. The scene between Dustin and his mom is so cute, the, like, laughing and crying and I love you. And the vibe she's giving me here, and this is one of the highest compliments I can pay anyone, is Kathy Bates and Fried Green Tomatoes. I think there's something about the pink blazer that's just really giving that for me. I think she's so great here. And then at graduation, when she is just, like, cheering on Dustin when he has his anti-establishment moment. Yes.

Fantastic. This is interesting. You did a great job raising that kid. Great stuff. Thrilled to see her. We've missed her. We talked about her absence was absolutely perplexing and frankly kind of galling. And so this felt right.

Thinking of the Halloween photos, the snowball photos, all of those moments. It's like this is what we've been missing. So I was so glad to get it here. I was thrilled. Game Montero has confirmed in interviews that Dustin broke up with Susie during his, quote, emo little jerk phase. This is tough. So that's what happened with Susie in case anyone was wondering.

Brutal. Dustin broke up with her. We have been getting emails from people being like, you guys are dumb. Susie broke up with him in season four because of whatever. Susie's dad did not want her dating it, but it's not that Susie broke up with Dustin in season four. But Dustin did break up with Susie. Hopefully in a mature way, but probably not. Okay.

They're kids. Jonathan directing Will's graduation day photo Hopper being like this is not the godfather Hopper's chief again and they're all living in not Jonathan he's in NYU they're living in the cabin is that what's happening? That cabin, they might move to Montaub but that cabin will still be standing

Cabin's not going fucking anywhere I don't understand Okay And then Karen tells Joyce that Mike is missing But Hopper knows where to find him He's on Lyra and Will's bench. Not the same thing.

God. I felt, I've never felt more confident that we would have the same thing in the notes as when I saw Mike sitting on this bench. Here we've got that scene between Hop and Mike, which is just like a great evolution, of course, of like Hop and Mike who have been, who had a tough season three, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And have had some like moments of connection, but this is just like a really, important moment for Hopper, I would say. Like Mike has a, has sort of a beat here. And then, of course, the beat at the graduation that helps him

breakthrough. Thanks feedback on a microphone. You were very helpful. But what do you, you, number one hopper lover, what do you want to say about this Hopper speech to Mike? Something I really liked. Even I.

Even you. I loved this. Yeah, you know, what could be more perfect than Mike on a bench, given the Will and Lyra of it all, and this idea of these two young people whose youth and experience was defined by how they felt about each other

being separated by a veil. I thought, we talked about the hair already after the time job, I just will say, of all the kids, like seeing all the kids in the epilogue, of all of them, Mike and specifically Mike Finn on the bench here, how grown up he looked. Obviously, we will get a moment

in the finale where Karen basically, is reacting in the same way. It's just like, you're so, like, you're so grown up. And I was sobbing watching that. But it really hit me seeing him here. Like, first of all, graduation. Very smart because the actors can finally be, like, playing semi-more inappropriate role.

So that's convenient. But we're still in the 80s, yeah. Yeah. But it did just really make you feel like the passage of time so keenly and potently. In terms of what Hopper says here, you know, And what Mike says first, like, you know, taking this promise of the three waterfalls and punishing himself, right? Like, it was childish. It was a fantasy plan.

I should have had a real one. And, you know, you mentioned Goodwill Hunting last pod, right? So, like, we got a little, we got a real. It's not a fault here. But I think that Hopper being able to not only help Mike and reach out to Mike, I was also like, like you just mentioned, thinking about their history. And, you know, I said this when we talked about, like, the end of season four, but the way that, like, that little moment

with Hop and Mike that you've grown, something about it at the end of season four just hit me so hard. And it would, like, this conversation here was, like, that on steroids. And the way that Hopper was able with, like, you've got one road, like, you keep blaming yourself for what happened, and then the other road, and saying, like, I've been

down that first road, and I don't recommend it. And as we just chronicled that length, not only today, but many other pods, like, Hopper is a character who has really struggled with seeing that there can be another road or with seeing it but actually walking down it instead of just continuing to go back the same path time and time again getting pulled back into it in a way that is like very very great Gatsby boats and get you know born back to the into the past yeah yeah yeah um thinking about where we met hopper in season one where he was

like taking pills and just sort of like just you know again there before the grace like how can we save Mike from something similar, you know? Yeah, yeah. And like, I think that for Hopper, a character who has been just so afraid to grieve and to lose, be able to help pull somebody out, not even pull somebody out of that pit of despair, but, like, show them that there's a ladder there that they can choose to climb, like that they can make the trek out of it themselves. It just felt really rewarding that he was able to take his own history of mistakes and

help somebody else, like, avoid them that you're not the curse. you don't have to be. Also, this isn't what 11 would have wanted. And, like, other people get to make their own choices. And so, like, the fact that he was able to reach Mike and impact Mike in this way because of what 11 taught him, like that this is the gift that Elle gave to both of them was just so lovely.

So lovely. Dustin Henderson graduates. That's an I-N-2-0 reference. Oh, yes. Donald Martin graduates and Dustin Henderson graduates. I love these tangerine, these like creamsical, ugly ass graduation gowns that they have. I watched a video of the costume designer talking about how she fought the duffers. They wanted green.

The colors were Hawkins High or orange and green. They wanted green. And she's like, you're going to be on a lawn. We should do the orange. It'll pop better. They had to, like, source the acetate to make all of these gowns and stuff like that. It's great stuff. Looks very cring.

I think we should end with these, like, a cringy. I love the color orange, but this is like a shade of orange. It is like, yes. kind of tough. Let's just run through who's in the audience really quickly. For Team Dustin, we've got Stephen, I mean, there's overlap here, but let's just say. Team Dustin, we've got Stephen Robin with Mrs. Henderson right behind them. Mr. Clark and his new BFF Murray are also sitting there in the audience cheering for Dustin. Team Mike, we've got, of course.

Karen, Nancy, Holly, Holly's awful bangs. Mike's BFF, Derek, who looks dapper in a vest and a bow tie, and mother fucking Ted. Wheeler. Thank God. Thank God. The finale confirmed that Ted Wheeler was alive and well. How he managed to survive being completely abandoned by every person who knew him, I have no idea, but I'm thrilled that he made it. Absolutely eviscerated. Like just the Demogorgon attacked them and like we don't even see his scars, right? No. Karen is wearing those scars. Karen's wearing those scars.

Kara, you already mentioned that like Karen has this moment with Mike. I'm so proud of you. But in terms of like this sort of breakthrough of, this is a moment that I, I guess I wish Joyce had had. Like, Joyce gets her like engagement scene with Hopper, but like Joyce is a mom.

Like, Joyce in the finale, this is not, Winona, this is the thought I had when Winona Ryder did not have a line until 42 minutes into the finale. She used to be the unquestionable star of the show. Season one is the Winona Writer show. this season, you know, and I understand, like, what has happened in terms of, like, the, the kids growing and all this sort of stuff changing, but Joy's really not having a moment in the finale.

She cuts the guy's head off. She gets her proposal. That's great. But I don't feel like she has a mom moment that really, like, hits me the way that this Karen Wheeler moment does. Yeah. And of all the, like, we'll talk about the kids in the final D&D scene and how, like, it's so clear that those actors were crying and character and also crying for themselves as like young actors who have gone through this. I felt that from Carabono as well.

And Carabono has been such an incredible follow for me on Instagram in terms of like she's posting all of these photos of these like small children who she feels like she's just like watched grow, which she has. And so when she says, I'm so proud of you to Mike, it also felt like I'm so proud of you to Finn. And I just, I cried. I thought it was so good. I agree.

I think the moments in the epilogue where you can feel. feel what this means to the people who were a part of it were quite, quite impactful. Quite potent. Team Will is Joyce Hop and Jonathan. Yes. Jonathan filming. Team Lucas. Team Lucas, we blow past his parents quickly, but they are there.

And Mr. Sinclair is wearing a high-quality Cosby cardigan, but they're seated right next to Destin's mom. Erica's there looking super cute in a really fancy like 80s outfit. She's kind of team Dustin because she's in on this fan. But she's, you know, she's there for her brother. We'll get to the lack of Erica and the final final moments in a second. Team Max. Yeah.

Nobody. Max's mom remains gone. Has Max been living with Lucas in the Wheeler basement? In Hopper's Unpotable Cabin? I don't know. I mean, it seems like Lucas, right? Because when she's skating, she's like outside of his house. Lucas is, yeah.

So the Sinclair's are chill, and they're just letting Max live with them, I guess. So they're definitely fucking. Not that they wouldn't be on their eyes, but they are definitely fucking. Yeah. Maybe Max's mom was like, surely there's no way that my child is ready to graduate after being in a coma for 20 months. So I don't need to attend this graduation. I will check in with the class of 90 and just miss this one.

Is it possible that's what happened? No? All right. Before we move on to Dustin's speech, is there anything else? you want to say about who's at attendance here or anything else? Just again, I was so happy to see Ted. There are many, there are moments during Dustin's speech where we cut to audience members, like, juxtaposed against certain lines and certain messages that I thought was like very

effective and very good. All right. And here we get Dustin's speech, fulfilling Eddie's vision. Eddie in season four, episode one, right? Says, I'm going to walk that stage next month. I'm going to look. Principal Higgins dead in the eye. I'm going to flip him the bird.

I'm going to snatch that deploy. And I'm going to run like hell out of here. And the callback to It's My Year. He says, it's our year. And then we get the Iron Maiden needle drop homage to Eddie. I think, I feel like Dustin Lampshay's the character's bad attitude in season five with I've been pretty pissed off about it. Ted gives us a final, like, language. And we deserve this.

I think this is great. I'm interested to hear what you think of the speech. And as we've noted, it does underline a lot of the found. You know, we talked about this bit at the beginning, this idea that it underlines a lot of the, like, just core themes of this show. Yes. But I do want to shout out the overt breakfast club homage of, like, because we were so divided into the jocks, the nerds, the freaks. So in case for your pop culture education, you are not familiar with the breakfast club. It ends with an iconic letter to a principal.

Dear Mr. Vernon, you see us as you want to see us in the simplest terms of the most convenient. definitions. What we found out is that each of us, each one of us is a brain and an athlete and a basket case and a princess and a criminal. Does that answer your question? So I loved all of this. It felt very like what Rob Mahoney likes to refer to as an in these divided times message. No free ads for Netflix, but the Hellfire Lives shirt is, of course, for sale on the website. Great merch, great messaging. Here's my only nitpick. with this, which is like, given how much time we spend on Higgins, like, quivering rage-filled face, I kind of wish we had met him before this scene.

Like, if Higgins had been a character that we had, like, spent more time with, because this is a time honored, back to the future, buffed vampire slayer, like, whatever, like, the, you know, the principal antagonist. And it's like, he doesn't need to have been a main character, but it was, like, weird that he was, like, so, his anger is so central here when, like, we could have, like, had him in the first episode, like, you know, Dustin's getting in trouble at school, bad attitude sort of thing. So yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, that's... Agreed. And and then never again after that because they were not in school or any of the usual concept. That would have been the one opportunity. Yeah, I agree. I thought this was great. I, you know, I love Ted's little language bit. I loved Hop getting another Jesus Christ moment when there. D and D.D. And Will and Lucas Woppen when when D&D is.

invoked. As mentioned already, Steve tearing up and then grasping Robin's hand when Dustin is saying, you know, I made new friends. I made friends who were never even supposed to be my friends. And it wasn't just me. I saw it happen to so many others. Holly and Derek, like sharing a smile, looking at each other then was just so great. When you get to know people who are different from you, you begin to learn more about yourself, change, you grow. I'm a better person. Now, I'm a better person because of them because of my friends. Like, that is the show. miniature. And it is like the mission and thesis of the show to explore that and celebrate it. And so I thought obviously this was an appropriate thing to hear at the end. And I thought Dustin was a

really poignant and comic and all of the emotions that we expect in the brew of stranger things. Just really the perfect person to like articulate and share this with the attendees at the graduation, but also the audience. Giving everyone their moment of the finessexious. Allie, letting Murray blow up a helicopter, letting Joyce Chob Fechne's head off, letting Steve wax poetic about Hawkins, which we're going to talk about in a second, all the sort of stuff like that.

And then, like, giving this, this is Dustin's moment. And it's, like, a really good gift for this character to have this really cool moment to honor Eddie, to be celebrated for his brain inside of, you know, this school setting to get an approach from Stacy, who shun him at the snowball in season two. And as Nancy predicted in season two, like girls would come around on Dustin. And I don't know.

I mostly liked this exchange with Stacey. I wish that Dustin had been less flustered and delighted and more like turning her down as like a sort of I don't need you moment. But he's a teenage boy. And so it's just sort of like it is what it is. It felt right to me that it felt true. It would be like, oh my God, did Stacey just finally invite me to a party? and then I loved, of course, that Mike was like, I haven't even better idea. I think in terms of the Eddie stuff with Higgins and the flip and the bird and the statue of the diploma and this is our year,

I loved that Dustin found a way to incorporate Eddie so fully and to honor Eddie in this way because Eddie didn't ultimately get to do that and walk the stage. And I love too that like, you know, we talked about this in season four, Eddie's big speech, the conform, we literally even hear, screw conformity here, right? So the conformity speech, like the one, I love that scene. It's an instantly iconic scene. We've both celebrated a lot. Dragons. My one note on that scene was always that, like, Eddie is doing a little bit of the thing that he's accusing the other people of doing, which is, like, you're at that table, I'm at this table. We're not the same. And, of course, Eddie also then grows out of that and, like, embraces the friendship he never thought he would have with Steve and with Nancy, etc. So it's, like, Dustin grew beyond the initial place we met Eddie, but also then we remember that Eddie did too. So that was all just really lovely. And I think, like, again, the Bloodstone Pass kid being the one to really, say again, like, in this coming of age show where these themes have been so core,

that embracing who you are and, like, embracing who other people are too, not only despite but because of the differences and finding that strength in friendship, the SpyShack memories, the Castle Buyers, what's your Hellfire Club? Like, what's your party? Go find it was just awesome. Love it. We're at the roof of the radio station. The older kids are talking about what they're up to. We've already mentioned that Jonathan's at NYU making what, to me sounds like a truly horrible student films with the Duffer has said it was based on the student film

that they made in college. So, okay. The consumer, it's a metaphor. The more she eats, the hungrier she gets. So good. Nancy, why did you drop out of Yale? Nancy is dropped out and is pursuing her journalism career. Robin, live in her best life.

Peasant blouse overalls, going to Smith. She's going to love the 90s. Lilith Fair is going to, welcome her with open arms. I'm excited for Robin in the 90s. One more great zinger, too. If I had a question about an STD, you'd be the most person I'd come to when they find out Steve's teaching sex. This is what we come to. This is what we come to, which is the real genius of this show. It is right that Steve should stay in Hawkins, Indiana.

But it is very deft the way that they have refrained this, not as a peaked in high school stuck here forever, you know, as he experienced. sort of like when he was scooping ice cream, working at the video store, stuff like that. Like it's a, I love this place. Right. And I'm going to make this place better. And we have seen the way that he has taken care of the children on the show and we know that he is going to take care of them. This idea of him in this like, again, I was getting strong probably because they said Friday Night Lights was an inspiration, but strong.

Like Tim and Billy Riggins, like, you know, at the golden hour, clinking a beer and saying Texas forever in the Friday Night Lights finale, but also, I mean, shout out Billy Wiggins and his coaching career, but like, but like coach Eric Taylor, Steve talking about wanting to find a girl and them teasing him and wanting to buy a house and all this sort of stuff like that. But like, whenever I think about Coach Taylor, I think about this line from Tammy Taylor, his wife, incredible, incredible character, Connie Britton, you legend, quote, you are teacher first and you are a molder of men, Tammy says to coach Eric Taylor. And I always think whenever I say Coach Taylor, Coach Eric Taylor in my head, in parentheses,

it's molder of men. And I think about, you know, I think about, I don't know, just a million different things. And so just thinking about Steve being that for the young children of Hawkins, gender aside, is just such an important thing. Being an educator is such an important thing. You can make fun of him for being a sex ed teacher, Robin, but like being an educator, being involved in kids' lives, helping new generations grow up,

and it just absolutely shifts this idea of like stuck here, failure peaked in high school, and it's just sort of like doing something important, doing valuable work, and doing something you're so good at, and we've seen him be good at, and just giving back to Hawkins in the Hawkins rebuild. I just thought was really, really beautiful. And then I think most importantly in this, scene, and this is something that I've seen, even haters of the finale really respond to, is this promise that we'll meet every month in Philly and how every single person, maybe not

the kids watching this, but every single person who is an adult watching this going, they're never going to do that. They're not going to do that. They're going to say that they're going to do that, and maybe they'll do it once, but they're not going to do it. And these friendships end and people drift, and that's okay. It's a thing that happens. But that hope of, like, we won't.

drift. We will keep it together. No one else, that trauma bond that Jonathan was referencing in his unpromote proposal to Nancy. It was just sort of the reference to here again. No one else will understand what we went through. Yeah. And while that's true, I choose to believe that 11 is

hiking in Iceland, but I do not believe that these young adults will be in touch. Maybe some of them. Maybe Robin and Steve. Maybe, you know, like maybe. But like, but they won't. And I love that they like made that promise and the duffers know and we know that that's not a promise they're going to keep. And that's the exactly

poignant, bittersweet, this is growing up kind of ending that we deserve here. Yeah, I really agree, beautifully said. I thought this scene was lovely. The emotion, again, another version of you can feel that the performers are grieving the end of this chapter as well. You know, all of them crying and saying what they missed. It's like, I really love what you're saying about Steve, you know, ending up where where he's supposed to be. And it feels like every one of them got their version of that. You know, I still have some notes on Nancy's journalistic practices. So I'm not sure that dropping out of Emerson to go work at the Herald.

I don't know how that's going to go for her. I did think Robbins, like, you became a Navy SEAL. No, it was maybe, it's worth thinking about if you're Nancy. But overall, just the emotion. And I love this idea of like, for Steve, he's there. So he's surrounded all the time by reminders of these people who left. And that's painful. And it's sad.

But also for the people who aren't there, then it's this absence of a different sort and like everybody has their own version of that thing when you move on. And like, the way you put it drift apart is just there's, there's an inevitability to it. I had the same response watching it when they make this promise to each other that's like, I love that they want to believe that that can happen, but you just, you just know that it won't. And like, they're mourning a thing that's already ended and that they've lost and they're also kind of, they're pre-greaving, like this, they're trying to hold on to something that you can't keep in your hands forever. And that's just, that's just true. And that's just how life goes.

doesn't mean that they love each other any less. It's just like that's part of growing up. There's this line that I quote all the time from the six feet under finale, right, when Claire is trying to take a photo of her family and her deceased brother sort of whispers in her ear. Like, you can't take a photo of this. It's already gone. Every time I think about that, I just like, I get really upset. You know, yeah, you can't take a photo of this is already gone.

Like, you can't recapture what we went through with stranger things. It's already over. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know that the scene, I thought that, I think everything happens in the Wheeler basement is perfect. I don't know that I thought this rooftop scene was like perfectly executed. I think there were like some inert spaces in it. But when I think about it, thinking about it makes me really emotional. And I just thought that was really good.

Hopper and Joyce finally go to Enzo's Mallory, take it away. A lot has changed over the years. Hopper's ability to pronounce the name of any given wine. Not one of those things. So that's nice. There are some constants. I really liked hearing Hopper say you raised two beautiful boys and two incredible men. It healed something in me from the previous parenting conversation they had.

Yeah. You should be happy. You should be proud. And the way that, again, this was growth for him because there's no, there's not a, I didn't feel a twinge of envy there. Right. It's just joy and just pride. that was really nice. I loved and appreciated, as I'm sure many Bob fans do.

I think Bob was here with us because the Montauk plan is basically the main plan that we could move to a cabinet main plan. And I feel like I'd like to think that Bob would be happy that they were maybe going to go do this. Someday I'm going to take it to Enzo's and I'm going to make this pitch is going to be us opening House of Reeds on a seaside town. And I'm like, we could hear, we could hear seagulls squawking. I mean, I feel like maybe nobody told Hopper that yes, the salary is higher,

but also the real estate is cause of living is a liar but you know I hope it works out for them um and just yeah they're like you will you spend the rest of your life with a tired grumpy stubborn old man who loves you very much like a little bit of that awareness that we need hop to have um and just seeing how much Elle did really help him heal like the way that he could have gone into this cocoon of misery and self-flagellation and you know you could have allowed his constant worry that that fear gnawing at him that he would always, like, lead the people he loves to some sort of peril to stop him from ever sharing a life with somebody, but he didn't do that.

And he's allowing himself to be happy. And because he's doing that, he's able to help others like Mike believe that they can do the same. And so, of course, I'm happy that Joyce and Hopper together and hopefully enjoying a very fruitful sex life. And I hope that they get to look at the ocean a lot in Montauk and that everybody's happy. But just for the growth, the growth that we see there.

And, you know, we got, we had planned. He done some planning. We hear at last out of James. I love that stuff. Okay. Last but not least. And by that, I mean pen. Yeah.

Yeah. This is the last section. I want to believe is what I'm calling this section, right? Shout out X-Files. Okay. We end as we began. The beginning is the end. Establishing shot on the wheeler lawn, sprinkler, pan into the party, playing D&D in the basement.

If you match at these shots, they're, you know, they match up, of course. No Erica in the epilogue is a hot bummer for me in this section of the epilogue. The Duffer brothers have said, obviously, no one's concerned about Erica. She can take care of herself. She's got to go through high school now, but she's just so tough. But Lady Applejack not being involved in any of this is a bummer, I would say. So Adam was enraged by this. He was like, it is insane that Erica is not there for this.

I think a lot of people were like, as you said, very pissed about this. I think I love Erica, as you know, she's one of my favorites, so I'm always happy to see her in a scene. I think that this group, being the group that was in this scene, felt right, though, both because Erica has her own friends

and her own party, but also, like, this specific experience, what Elle meant to all of them and what it means to move to this next phase of their life where they are all going to different places is more specific to that smaller group.

I did see someone suggest that she should be DMing the game for the, for Holly and the other kids or something like that. Like, is there some space for her? Or, you know, something. More Erica in some capacity at the end. I obviously would have loved.

Yes. No question. All right. I will say, Max really cracked me up, and I think she'd be very fun to play D&D with. And I think all the kids, and by kids, I mean, their adults, are on an entirely other level in this scene.

Agreed. We all the time mock the line from the game of front's finale, what's more important than story? I think this is a great execution of what's more important than story. This is it done well. There's another lampshade moment, right, where Max says, comfort and happiness, could you be more tried?

I thought you were a master storyteller or something, right? So this is the duffer saying, like, hey, you think a happy ending is boring? Well, fuck you. There are different ways to find comfort and happiness. So meta. So matter. So where are they now? The night and the Zoom where they were talking.

tired from battle and they settle down in a small village with each passing day their love grow stronger. And we see Max and Lucas watching Ghost, which came out in 1990s. So we do go to the 90s. I did not get my New Year's Eve with the Stranger Things crew, but that's okay. So Max and Lucas are watching Ghost is what the deafers have said they are going to see. I'm so happy. I'm so happy. The bard, craving knowledge, makes his way to the Majes Guild of Enclave, where he spends his days in their vast library, though deeply devoted to his studies, he still makes time for the occasional adventure. and goes to college and still adventures camps, perhaps, with Steve. I just love the Steve has his RV.

The Duffer said they wanted to show that bromance is growing strong with Steve because they had a bumpy season five. I'm grateful. And you did that, Duffers, just saying, okay. As for Will the Wise, he travels far and long to the bustling city of Villalucky. It's overwhelming at first, so very different from the village where he spent his youth, but it isn't long before he finds his place there and with that deep happiness and acceptance. I don't think the Duffers have confirmed that Velaki is meaning Will is going to Milwaukee.

But that is what people have inferred from this. And if I will say even if that's what the Duffer is planned, I think they will never cop to that now because people pointed out that in 1989 in Milwaukee was where Jeffrey Dahmer was hunting young gay men. So that is perhaps not where we should send Will buyers. But the close cap is it's Valaki, like it's VALA. a.k.i. He's not saying Milwaukee there. But I think similar to digitally erasing the Under Armour logo from Holly's shirt, which they did in the last

couple weeks, they're just going to be like, oh, Volaki is not Milwaukee. I don't know where you got that impression. It would be my guess. Oh, man. And the storyteller. What about him? And I'm sure you, like me, thought about you've left out one of the chief characters, Samway the Brave. I want to hear more about. Sam. We're about Sam. Of course. The storyteller keeps telling stories, stories inspired by his friends.

One day he hopes their tales of grand adventure will spread far and wide across the land so all can know of their bravery. Again, this is such a better version of Archmester Abras wrote a song of Ice and Fire, which is awkwardly shoehorned. This idea that Mike wrote Stranger Things, which we get like sort of at the end of the credits. Like, I'm not mad about that concept. Mike becomes a writer. Some of our listeners wrote in saying they were thinking about Bilbo and Frodo, you know, writing there and back again, of course. The last pages are for you. I was giving, he's giving really strong Richard Dreyfus at the end of Stand By Me, which is, I rewatched that scene and I started crying.

because, you know, stand by me and a definite inspiration, as well as the narrator at the end of the sandlot, similarly. But stand by me, what you discover about stand by me at the end of that movie, I guess I don't want to spoil it,

is like why this character has been telling this story. And it is, and this idea that his kids are asking him to come play and he's, and they're like, oh, he's lost in the story. It's like, yeah, that's always what happens when he's writing, you know? And it's just like thinking about, again, I don't want to spoil the end of stand by me, I guess. But like, I think about that and Mike with his little snapshot of 11 next to his typewriters as he becomes a writer is just very impactful.

I really liked it a lot. I thought this was amazing. It's just amazing. The symmetry that you noted, just what a perfect choice to end where. we started. The idea, too, just that the party hasn't died, you know, like, so much of the tension and friction and the riffs that form and young friendships

of like, do you think we were going to play forever? Like, yeah, I did, you know, and giving away the box. How does Erica get her first the fact that we are going to end on the closed door in the basement and this idea of childhood's end, right, of moving into the next phase of your life,

but also the idea that like there is this preserved thing that is last and will always be important and precious. I just thought was really really lovely. The glimpses that what Mike is saying about everybody, I thought

that was all beautiful. And the performances here were just amazing. I mean, I fucking lost it when they all got up to put their binders away. Even though I believe, the way that Gaten says it with like a, like, almost like a mischievous, like happy, like, I believe.

Like a very like, clap if you believe in fairies, sort of like Peter Pan moment of like, we can all decide what this ending means for us. The Duffers have given a lot of interviews about this, right, and talked about Eleven as representative of the magic of childhood, which I think is an imperfect idea because 11, unlike, like, say, a Puff the Magic Dragon or Peter Pan, like 11 is such a fully formed character in her own right and such a, you know, hop-tileged. talking about all the things that happened to her and the life she gets to lead.

So, like, to reduce her to sort of this, like, e.T. or whatever, like, this emblem of the magic of childhood, it hits a slightly wrong note for me, but I really like this ending. It's an inception ending. It's a wicked for good ending. It's the Dark Night Rises. It's a ballad of songbirds and snakes if you prefer. It's the leftovers in that. you get to decide what the end of this story means.

And it's a Captain America ending because this is the Duffer Brothers quote that I, Matt Duffer said to them. What we really wanted to do was confront the reality of her what her situation was after all of this and how she could live a normal life. This idea of Captain America, again, until Avengers Doomsday, goes back in time and just gets himself some of that life that he's been hearing so much about. You know what I mean? And I know a lot of people don't like this ending, and they feel like 11 is sort of punish and ostracized, like, that she doesn't get like a full-blown happy ending.

She's away from everyone she loved. I see it. She just looks so happy. But of course, that's in Mike's mind. But since I choose to believe, she looks so happy. She's there in pink and blue. A lot of people in light have pointed out that they were like Mike envisioning her in her season one color palette of pink and blue. I choose to believe this is an optimistic ending for 11.

And I choose to believe that she made a choice that she is happy with. Things end, childhood ends. So L is a symbol of childhood magic for these other characters. I like less than just thinking about 11 in her choice and pursuing a happiness for herself. and the pain that that brings for the people that she left behind, but also the hope and belief and storytelling magic that can come of thinking about her. One must imagine Sisyphus an 11 happy,

and I think that that is just really strong, strong ending for this show. Yeah, I think there's a very hopeful, optimistic aspect to this undeniably as well. for L, but also for the party sitting at that table talking about this thing, crying, each of them saying in their own way, as you noted, like, I believe I choose to believe. And the way that this ending, in terms of L, but also just the idea of story writ large,

empowers us to choose what we believe is so perfect and so fitting and so apt for the story that we just watched. So I believe as well. I like you, thought of, I love the list here at their inception, certainly came to mind in terms of, I think, like, like Inception, it will be something we're debating. You know, we, the fandom are debating for some time, but.

What's so interesting to me is that I didn't, Inception, I'm willing to have that argument, and I'm willing to have the argument, whatever. But this one, I'm just sort of like, I'm just so sure. I believe. I just believe. And, like, that's not true of Incepe. I mean, I believe I know what happened in Seception, but like, you could probably persuade me the other way and I would easily go there.

I think because my belief is. in what happened to 11 is so rooted in my need for these kids to be okay. Yeah. That it's, I'm gonna stick faster to this, I believe, than I would to like, is Cobb okay, I care a little less. Honestly,

Cobb has lived his life. I 11 is so young and she is so much so bored here. Yeah, I think that like the the other thing, I believe I choose to believe, we're in the same place with this. I think that either way if 11 died or if 11 died or if 11 left this all behind,

either way, hope and optimism still present, it's a sacrifice undeniably. And it's her life in one form or another. And that is a kind of like central sacred aspect of a lot of these fantasy tales that we love. And so it feels appropriate. We had kind of anticipated this in many forms over the years,

but it feels appropriate that that was present in some way. And I think, you know, never-ending story in Lord of the Rings again. We're on my mind most throughout the finale, but specifically in this scene, I think, like, we, you know, for a long time I've been talking about the Frodo. Stories never end. It's a story's never end. But, you know, and just the like the Shire's been saved, but not for me, all of it and how Lord of the Rings coded this was.

And obviously the overt set up in chapter one of this season with Mike and 11 talking on the roof about, like, well, what usually happens. and like, is not going to happen? You know, I think we had been primed so fully for this question of like, well, where will 11 sail? You know, like, what is the undying land for 11? And I think that's such a lovely thing for Iceland. Iceland's great there for us to think about. And I think that, you know, both in this conversation and this like, you know, I choose to believe aspect of it.

And then really also, when we pan out, I loved the closing. and credits, these beautiful illustrations and all of the incorporation of all of the memories, and then we pan out players manual. And like the way that this heightens in this very never-ending story fashion, this idea that like we are the storytellers too and we are in the story when we choose to be. And like I was thinking back to when we did our Troops course episode, when we did our portal worlds episode, our rabbit holes episode. and the quotes that we each shared,

we had each picked a never-ending story quote to share in that episode, unsurprisingly, of course. And I think they're just perfect. Like, they were so on my mind seeing that player's manual. The one that you had picked, this is from the text, from the book. If you have never spent whole afternoons with burning ears and rumpled hair,

forgetting the world around you over a book, forgetting cold and hunger, if you have never read secretly under the bedclothes with a flashlight, because your father or mother or some other well-meaning person has switched off the lamp on the plausible ground that it was time to sleep because you had to get up so early. If you have never wept bitter tears because a wonderful story has come to an end

and you must take your leave of the characters with whom you have shared so many adventures, whom you have loved and admired for whom you have hoped and feared and without whose company life seems empty and meaningless. If such things have not been part of your own experience, experience, you probably won't understand what Bashan did next. And like, that was just so on my mind here because that's what they're giving us when we hear Mike say these things and we hear

the characters say, I choose to believe and we see them put their books on the shelf. And we pan out and we are encouraged to think about this story, the show, but just the adventure more broadly as like not just a story that's waiting for us that we can return to, but one that we participate in, right? One that we can be a part of. And part of that is thinking about what happened to Elle, but all of it, every aspect of the journey. I wonder, he said to himself, what's in a book while it's closed. Oh, I know it's full of letters printed on paper, but all the same. Something must be happening. Because as soon as I open it, there's a whole story with people I don't know yet. and all kinds of adventures and deeds and battles.

And sometimes there are storms at sea or it takes you to strange cities and countries. All those things are somehow shot up in a book. Of course, you have to read it to find out, but it's already there. That's the funny thing. And like, that was the other passage that you picked. I picked for that episode.

And like, they're part of the same idea, right? And like, that's what a great book is for us. And that's also what this show was at its best for us. And so ending in that spirit, I just thought, was the perfect place to be. So I choose to believe. This is why, so like, this is why I think, thank you so much for sharing that. I love you.

When you cry, I cry. Talking about the communal aspect of watching this in the theater. I think what you're saying about like the way in which we get to be storytellers, because we get to decide how, you know, in the classic 80s, choose your own adventure style, we get to decide how 11 story ends. So we get to participate in the construction of this story. That's a beautiful idea. And then I also think that ties into the meta-narrative of watching these young actors who

we've watched grown up, put their, literally put their characters on a shelf. Take their binders. I saw great behind the scenes video of the crew on the camera that's like through the cutout of the wall that's like filming them putting and they're playing heroes on the set. So they were like playing the song. And so just like watching the camera crew, watch them put their binders. way and just like watching Sadie Sink

walk up and Sadie is just I think head and shoulders above the rest of the cast. They're all great. I think she's just honestly, God tear. And put Max on a shelf. And so watching Finn Wolfhardt pause on the top step and look at the

young kids coming down, Holly and not Thomas and Derek and etc., etc. Come down to play D&D. And so like the meta way in which Those characters are saying, those actors are saying goodbye, they're involved in it. It's their story, too. Yes.

It's our story. It's their story. It's everyone's story. It's wrapped up in who we've all been for the last decade. And that is really hard to find any more at all in television in the streaming landscape that we occupied and the fractured of the monoculture, all that sort of stuff like that. So I just think it's really powerful. And like Ethan Hawke said, important and will remain important.

And I'm really glad that this was last year was kind of a funky year for us content-wise. So we got to like really just dig into stranger things for half the year, essentially. And I feel really lucky to have shared that with you. So I love you. I love you too, pal. I just love that Derek and Holly are playing D&D. And we've passed the torch to a new generation, Mike watching them sit down.

Like for us to have our version of that with the show is really, really cool. It's really cool. I'll miss it. Thank you, Mallory Rubin. Thank you to all of our listeners who've been with us on the rewatches or just whether or not you just, like, tuned in for the final season, wherever the case may be. Thank you so much. Thank you on this epic, epic.

And thank you for your patience on this finale pod. We really appreciate you, again, letting us have a holiday. Thank you to Carlos Jirboga for his epic work editing this chunky little episode. Thank you to our Jenner-Rangipal for hurting cats all. day, every day for us. And thank you for Jomey at dinner on the social. And we will see you later this week for both more teens graduating. Buffy the Vampire Slayer season three. And, um, and more and more and more for the rest of the year. All right. Bye.