House of R - The Achievement of the 'X-Men '97' Finale and Season 1

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

It's ‘House of R,’ mon amis. Mal and Jo are here to give you their thoughts on the season finale and the season as a whole of the highly regarded 'X-Men ’97' (10:01) and what their hopes for the new season may be! Be sure to check out tickets for the Ringer Residency in Los Angeles this summer! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

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Services not available in all areas. Hello there, bad babies. Midnight riders, beloved listeners of the Ringerverse. The Ringer is hosting its first ever residency this summer in Los Angeles. The Ringer crew is taken over the L. Ray Theater here in L.A. June and July, and the Ringervis family will be participating in two of those live shows. We will be doing Talk to Thrones live on Tuesday, June 25th. And then the Ringerverse family will be teaming up for a Ringerverse live event on Wednesday, July 17th.

Tickets are still available and I have to ask, what are we even doing here? So you can go to theringer.com slash events for tickets and full details. We can't wait to see you this summer. Have you met others? I've met several. Many alone, scared. And they will be feared. Hated.

Not if we guide them. Help them cherish their gifts. Help the world see all we share by being different. Alas, my new friend. In my experience, minds are far harder to bend than metal. Greetings and welcome to House of Our, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

And joining me today, welcoming me to my mind. Malness? What would it be? Magnus Mal. The master of malnutism. Oh, my stars and garters. It's Joanna Robinson.

So much pain, my Valerie, so much death. It is an apt opening line from you, Joe, because you are unwell today. You are unwell. If anybody has clicked into this podcast and they're looking at the runtime and they're like, boy, did Steve like only upload one 18th of the file? What happened here? What is this runtime? We, uh, did Mallor had to leave suddenly to chase Halo through the streets of Los Angeles? Oh, God. Parish of the thought. Parish. We, uh, we're here for a very quick check in today because Joe, what has, what has befallen you? I hit my head earlier this week and I have had a headache ever since. So it's been several days. And Mallory was like, should be canceled the podcast?

And I said, no, we got to give the people at least 10 minutes, if not 20 of absolutely stellar top tier braid injury content from me, Joanna Robinson and a more lucid Mallory. I don't know about that. I haven't hit my head on a tree branch in the last couple days, but I can't claim to be more lucid. I don't think. Steve and I, yeah, we tried to convince you to sit it out, take the day off, start our dark week a day early. You said, no. You grabbed that helm. You cradled it around your delicate, precious cranium.

And you said, we will pod. We will pod for the good of pod kind. And so we're just going to like, little Bobby B quickwam today, going to chat broadly. about our feelings about the X-Men 97 finale and the X-Men 97 experience overall. Before we do that, some quick programming. Reminders.

Yes. We are dark next week. No House of Our podcasts next week, barring something unforeseen and grave. Frankly horrid. Grave. We have been potting a plenty, though. So if you're dipping into this, you're like, well, what can I listen to next week?

When you guys aren't giving me new content, catch up on the stuff we've done over the last few days because we had new... The first Rings of Power trailer for season two this week, which we potted about on Tuesday. And then we also got a brand spank and new official trailer for House of the Dragon season two. We're a month away from Hot D. And so we did a frame by frame, quite long breakdown of that trailer. As usual, on the hot D front, we did a separate, at the end of the pod, behind a distinct, clearly marked spoiler warning. Book spoiler chat about that trailer as well. And then we also did a little, many.

Holy fuck, Game of Thrones ended five years ago. Where did the last half decade of our lives go? Look back at the Thrones finale and the legacy of Thrones. Do you think me rewatching the Throne series finale exacerbated my head injury? And who has a better story? Joina the Broken? Oh, my God. I'm fine.

Everything's fine. Please don't save your concern emails or tweets. I'm totally fine. But yeah, what else is going on, Mallory? Yeah, the Ringerverse. The Ringerverse crew. Cranking next week. Cranking.

button mash coming to your feeds on Thursday over on the Ring Reverse with a build the best video game remake roster pod and then next Friday the midnight boys. We'll have their instant reaction to Furiosa. Joe and I will be potting about Furiosa after Memorial Day. We'll dive in into that. I know. I can't wait. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

I'm thrilled that's getting good reviews. It's making me really happy. And then, you know, we'll be on the eve of the accolite. It will be mere weeks away at that point. from hot D. It's Paula Trades will snuggle himself

in there somewhere. He'll slither in on a sandworm to make his way onto the feed at some point before long we'll be together in person potting like

19 hours a week together. It's great. Can't wait. Your eyes were really wide. Is that from the head injury or thinking ahead to the summer? I think I only heard recently with the full extent

of the summer plans and it was an eye-opening experience, and I'm really excited because I love you and I live plenty time with you. It's a lot of stuff airing at once. Joe, whether it be at this very moment or in mid-June or any time after, perhaps listeners have been pulled across time

like our characters in the show we're here to talk about today, who can say when they'll be making their way to the podcast feed, to a social feed. Whenever where are our people, However, however, how can they follow along? Oh, we're meant to be together? Yeah.

Listen, here's what I would suggest. Why don't you just subscribe? Subscribe to Ringerverse. Subscribe to House of R. Subscribe to all your favorite Ringer podcasts. Why would you deprive yourself? Follow us on social. Like, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter.

Twitter, which is currently on flames right now because of a trial by content, ill-advised trial by Compton Star Wars Bowl that we put out. Listen, a lot's going on. So you're just going to follow along. And most importantly, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com, please send us your emails. Hot D. Season is like the inbox will be on fire. I'm very excited for that. You guys are so thoughtful when it comes to House the Dragon.

It is why we have the Raven Khan, the show in the first place. So hobbits and dragons at gmail.com But I'm fine. So please don't send me any emails that are like, Joanna are you dying? I'm fine. Totally fine. Here's the thing.

Yeah. Before we dive into just our feelings and vibes chat. Yeah, I love a vibes chat. Why are we doing this today while you are suffering your affliction? Because we love the show. That's why, right? We're here today because we loved the show and genuinely just wanted to spend a few minutes celebrating that.

Spoiler warning is, of course, for, all of X-Men. All of X-Men 97. The finale? The last time we checked in, so we've done two prior pods. We did one through three. We did four through six.

In theory, anything from the season could come up today, but we're mostly talking about the concluding installment. The final episode, and I guess perhaps the intolerance is extinction three-part. How do you feel about...

Construction? Comic book spoilers. I think some comic book stuff could come up today. We'll maybe do some contextual If you don't want to hear this, hit the... Yeah, some like look ahead sort of stuff. I think something about a certain character

near and dear to your heart could potentially come up. It might. It may. Possibly. What are we even doing here if it doesn't, you know? Why would I even risk my brain and get on a... Probably why you wanted to do this today? On a microphone, if not talk about this.

Yeah. Okay. Suit up. My Joe, to me. Tell me how you felt about the X-Men 90s. seven finale, the last episode, episode 10, the three-part finale, however you want to take it, and how you felt about the season overall? I thought this is just an incredible season of television, just like really, really incredible.

We talked, as you mentioned, we checked in twice around some phenomenal episodes, and I thought this finale stretch was really, really strong. I think there's like an episode here or there that wasn't as strong as another, looking at you, my darling Jubilee, and looking maybe at you, my beloved rogue. Like, other than that, like, this is a really, really strong season. And what's so interesting to me about... How did you feel when Bashan said, what will you do, child slay me with the 4th of July?

Did you believe? I laugh so hard, but then I also liked that she's like, as if I haven't heard that before. She's like, guess what I know I'm useless? Like, you don't have to overstate it, I'm aware. I think it's interesting. Like, we live in this little content bubble where we're like, wow, X-Men 97 is the best thing that Marvel has put out. a very long time.

I mean, we like Loki season two, but like, hmm. But then like looking at the viewership numbers, you know, it's like behind, definitely behind Percy Jackson, definitely behind Echo in terms of like what Disney Plus has put out this year. But it's always a tough, like,

road for animation. Like animation's always going to come in lower. A lot of CRs out there, you know? Yeah, I'm not, I'm not concerned about the CRs of the world. Some days in general. Some days in a lot. Really not because of the CRs of the world. Sometimes they'll watch Bluey, but not today.

Today is not that day. But it's not this day. Exactly. But I think they're doing like extraordinarily well for animation in general. And then right inside, it's just like people are excited to talk about Marvel characters again, coming off a really burnt and jaded era of Marvel on screen entertainment. So that makes me really happy. I have, as I've already mentioned a few times, a very nostalgic, warm attachment to this particular venue of Marvel superheroes and X-Men animated series.

And again, we're just like echoing what everyone said, which is like they just went much harder and much, no phrasing, anyway, than they needed to, right? It's just much more intense and thoughtful than, you know, a easy cash grab nostalgia bid could be. So I'm really impressed with this show. Yeah. What do you think, Mallorbin? I agree. I thought this was sensational. I, in real time, watching each episode really had a great time week to week.

I looked forward to it dropping every week. but then going back into the episodes, prepping for each of our pods, combing through the lines of dialogue and the just stunningly beautiful prose and the heft and boldness of the ideas on display, I just thought this was sensational. It's comic book storytelling,

the superhero storytelling, allegorical storytelling, and it's in its best form and best, execution. Like, what is on offer and on display here throughout this first season of X-Men 97 is not only why people love the X-Men, certainly and specifically in great X-Men stories. But what, it's a reminder of how powerful and poignant fantasy or genre storytelling can be. Like, how much seeing these found family magical, mystical tales. can unlock for us about our own lives.

And I thought that the particular challenge inside of X-Men 97, this is always a challenge in any kind of like ensemble story, but the number of characters in the mix on X-Men 97 is wild. Like if you just pan back for a second and think not only of our X-Men

and our pals who are making their way at some point in or out of the mansion, but like just think about it. with a villain set across the season for a minute. Absent the context of actually consuming the show, if you said to somebody or you saw a list of like, hear all of the different, we're going to have some time with Gyrick,

we're going to have some time with Trask. The master mold is going to be here, right? We're going to battle Sentinels. We're definitely going to spend a lot of time building up Mr. Sinister as the main villain and then only later reveal that it's actually Bastion. Theo James, welcome to the party in the mix, pulling the strings.

And by the way, Magneto will, despite a riveting run in league and cahoots with our heroes, wind up opposed to them after all in a crucial stretch. Only to swing back.

Only to then. That is like the elements at play there feels like it would be impossible to smoothly execute. Yeah. And you miss, by the way, Eric will spend an episode

in his bikini briefs being like, suspended in the air. You forgot that crucial part. It did happen. Being shaved by Bastion. As Dr. Cooper looks on, I didn't know. It's just amazing to be able to execute this. I remember one of the things that we talked about at the very beginning of the series was, okay, interesting choice to not start with, say, a Wolverine-specific episode to, like, make us wait for it. Okay, how long will

they keep Charles out in the sidelines before bringing him back into the mix? And obviously, Charles is like a very central to events in the back third of the season. But we never get the standalone Wolverine episode. And you know what? I love that. That was not only okay, but great. It was bold and... And they've set up for like a really interesting Wolverine story in season two.

You know, like that's... This is the other thing like the comp to other recent, I think Marvel TV experiments specifically, but just in general. in this IP era where everything is about setting up the next season or setting up the next spin-off or how will this connect to a larger universe. When is Harry-Styles? When is Harry-Styles coming back to the N-CU? Is that your question?

Exactly. That is always my question, as you know. But there aren't, I don't think there are too many other installments that we could hold up on par with this that did just as good of a job of setting up what comes next and of giving us hope for the future. of telling what felt like a fully realized story in its own first season because like there's no trade off. Well, I think part of that is, yeah, I think part of that is we know that season two is already

written and like deep into production. So it's not like, is there going to be a second season of X-Men 97? Am I watching a bunch of set up without the promise that they'll pay it off or anything like that? Am I ever going to find out what's going to happen to our heroes floating across time and space? in so many stories where it's like, oh, well, we've got to set up what's next at the expense of maybe feeling like we properly concluded this version of the story. And like, I think what works in X-Men 97's favor in that regard is in something we identified from the jump, which is the main criticism I've seen of this series, which is that is going too fast, burning through comic storylines. And like, we pointed that out as something we kind of liked, at least about the first chunk of episodes we talked about or were just sort of like, wow, they're just like flying.

This is amazing. With only 10 episodes in the season, the amount of, you know, you already listed out the dizzying amount of villains. And I don't mean dizzying just because I hit my head on a tree branch, surely this week. But, like, the number of villains, the number of characters, the number of, like, really fun comic book storylines that they've just, like, absolutely churned through. The critique I've seen from some people is, like, either they feel like it's going too fast. they don't feel emotionally connected to the characters. That's not a problem that I'm having, but okay. Or we did get an email from a listener about an essay that was in Entertainment Weekly,

and I'm sorry I don't have it in front of me. Let's blame the tree branch. But it was about sort of if X-Men 97 burns through so much comic content at this clip, what content will be left for the live action X-Men when they come to the MCU? Are we sort of greedily slurping up too many good stories? Okay, I have two comments. One, I just want to commend you for your commitment to saying slurper slurping on every pod recently.

Thank you. Because it's, they're in the monoculture. Three or four in a row. And I don't see any sign of you ceasing this. Nor should you. So that's just a thing I wanted to observe. When you stop saying, brew. I'll stop saying.

Never. Never. Never. understand why that would be a thought that people had and a concern that people had. I am not worried about it. I think in part because this season, and I mean this is a sincere compliment, I thought actively flouted that consideration throughout. Just the number of different, not only to your point, like of the pacing and the stretch

of story and different comic strands that we went through this season, but even things like the way that other characters are. incorporated. Any time Cap or Tchaca or Kloak and dagger cameos in the finale Say their names.

Clocund dagger. Just forgive me. Cloak and dagger. Every time anybody appeared in the story, whether it was a quick cameo or a larger inclusion into the plot,

there was just this sense. Like it almost felt like an active sense of we will not be bound by this concern of what it might mean to include this figure here or what sort of bearing will that have. Now, that's obviously a little bit different from saying if you do apocalypse or you do bastion or you do X, Y, Z, you do E for extinction, et cetera, right? You do Genocia. Like, you're adapting arcs, fable arcs, and then what arcs are left? Are you going to do a certain arc in the animated verse and then four years later do that exact arc

with that exact villain in a movie and the live action? I feel like the answer would be... When would X-Men ever do that? When would they ever just do Dark Phoenix over and over and over and over again? Maybe that's like alarming, but I don't know, it made me feel good in a way. Like they didn't feel like for a second the people who were making this season of TV

had been told or made to feel like limited or constrained. by what might happen with the characters later. And I think that that's part of what can go really wrong with these sprawling connected universes is that you can't tell the story you want to tell because you have to think about what movie someone else might make in seven years. You're so locked in. I so agree. I think it's been so liberating to watch this show that is both set in the 90s and in a different multiverse than the MCU that we've been watching. And so like, you know, Cap can show up in the 90s and we don't have to be like, well, but what does that mean for the time?

like, because it doesn't matter because this is a completely different sandbox that we're playing in. And I remember America's top cop, absolutely iconic, iconic line from broke. I remember, I remember talking to all the, like the various MCU Disney Plus showrunners and when they would tell me that like they were told they couldn't use this character or they couldn't use this character, but they weren't even told why. So it's not just you're hemmed in by whatever the MCU is doing elsewhere. You don't even get to know what that other thing is. And so, like, the fact that Baudemé and his crew were just free to play in this world that they obviously knew incredibly well and obviously loved dearly, that that felt liberating after. And we talked about this so much with the MCU the way that its initial strength, which is that interconnectedness has become a weakness for it. And there are many different ways that they can get out of that corner they panned themselves into through multiversal storytelling or Secret Wars or whatever they decide to do.

But right now this is just such refreshing counter programming to that. Yeah, absolutely. It was really exciting to watch that and to feel that so consistently throughout. And it's like it still gave me hope for what was to come because it was this reminder of how quickly you can. deliver that jolt of energy and euphoria and possibility back into your fictional universe and how quickly you can restore that faith in your audience and how quickly you can encourage people to opt back in. And also, this is another thing we chat about a lot with comic book storytelling. This was something that I thought Jason always used to do a great job of reminding people is like,

you can find a new entry point, right? It can feel so burdensome. And like it has amassed to a point, like, how could you ever make your way in? How? It's just so intimidating and so daunting. And like, I even at the beginning of X-Men, 97, like, even just, in my life and your life, like, I was getting texts from friends. Can I watch this if I haven't seen the original animated series? Or can I watch this if I haven't seen it since I was a kid? And it's like, I think over the course of this season, it felt like more people were saying, I'm just going to, it seems like people really like this.

I'm going to give this a try. And so then maybe this becomes then a new springboard into enthusiasm for fans. I think that's so true. But like, I want a yes and Jay's great point because I agree with him. But also it, the storytellers are then beholden. To write a story that doesn't feel like it has a barrier of entry. And we talked about this a lot when we talked about Asoka, where I could feel them trying, but not quite getting there with a lot of the audience where they felt like they had to know so much.

Or like when MCU puts out a new Disney Plus TV show and they have to like release a bunch of little videos on Disney Plus of like previously on this character's arc, you know. And so I think there is, and Combook Storytelling has sort of wrestled with how to do this, be it like an act. Asterisk that leads you to another issue or, you know, someone just dropping some cash exposition or something like that. Like comic storytellers have been doing this for decades. But, you know, something this show did so well, I think I walk into this having seen all of X-Men, the animated series. But I know people who walked in having seen none and they were also immediately invested in those characters. So it's it's an opportunity that. Combook storytelling has, but not

something that the storytellers have always delivered on, but certainly they delivered on here. Yeah, absolutely. And should be praised for that. I love it. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Find yours at Target today. Okay, let's do some like very rapid, maybe quick hit. We didn't plan this. You don't know what I'm about to say? We'll keep it very light, very cash. Not even true superlatives, but just kind of hit a few buckets, like favorite episode, favorite character, favorite arc, etc. It's just maybe that'll be a way for us to kind of very quickly hit some of the things that we enjoyed.

You can pick anything. You can pick nothing. That's fine, do? Who was the character, Joe, this season, who you enjoyed watching the most? Which character did you enjoy spending time with? This is easy. I mean, it's not Gambit. We'll talk about Gambit, but it's Magneto.

Like, this is the Magneto season. Without question. Like, seriously without question. He has the previously on in this episode, you know, like, and they've sort of used that to mark whose episode it is. When we went over on Child by Content, when we did the sort of like best X-Man of all time debate, which Wolverine won easily. You should have.

It's okay. Different episode from when you guys, slandered Rogue One. Different episode, just to. gave a fair and balanced critique of Bergwan, yes. A movie that has a lot of going for it. We were all fighting over who gets Magneto, which is not something I necessarily would have said before. I mean, as much as I love Ian McKellen's performance

and Michael Fasbner's performance and his various storylines of the comics, this season just really underlined for us. And it's no coincidence that Beau DeMayo has said on Twitter, like, Magneto is me. I am Magneto. Like, you know, for better or the worse. every line dialogue.

Yeah. Like that he is the point of view character of the season. Yeah. So it's absolutely Magneto's season. And I have to imagine as long as they're using both scripts, which is what season two is likely to be, it will be Magneto's series, is my guess. And then we'll see what happens after that. What a frankly thrilling prospect for our future television consumption.

Sensational voice performance from Matthew Waterson, as Magnet as well. I mean, just the amount of episode carrying monologues and creeds that Magneto delivers. And one of the things that I, obviously Magneto is my pick as well for favorite character of the season.

The character who I just found the most like pleasurable to watch because it was so entertaining and riveting, but it was just the most like thought-provoking also. I mean, everything that Magneto says, whether it makes you feel like complicit and uncomfortable with the way you find yourself leaning toward the screen to listen or the way that you interrogate and try to critique his perspective,

like the way that you were moving across a moral and philosophical and almost existential spectrum as you listen to him talk. And of course, that experience is then, like, the experience that you're having as a viewer is, like, reflecting the experience that the characters in the screen are having around him, like when he shows up to basically recruit the X-Men in front of Charles, telling Charles to shut up. Shut up.

So funny to me. So good. Racking up. But the thing that I loved so much was, first of all, the way that all of Eric's speeches and ideas build and compound over the course of the season, but also the way that other characters, including characters who, while they may not necessarily play a central of a role in the story or like sweep us up in their quest, quite to that, obviously nowhere near the extent, like I'm thinking of a character like Dr. Cooper.

People who are actively opposed to him over the course of the series end up being the ones who parrot his wisdom. A master of magnetism. Magneto was right. He's always recruiting. He's always recruiting. The other side of that is the other aspect of X-Men that these writers really understand, which is the soap opera side. So you have Magneto this like mythological figure giving these grandiose speeches and monologues and held up as a lot of. a leader and swinging from hero to villain and all these things that he's doing. And then he's also a man

who's like in love or lust with someone, like has this sort of like human frailty want. I want something and it's not world domination and it's not to lead the X-Men and prove something to Charles. It's not this or that. The other thing is like I want wrote, I mean, like we'll talk about Erica Charles in this finale as well. Like that's its own thing. But like giving your character a want, which is something that this season just knocked out of the park. Everybody wants something. Everybody wants some to title a baseball movie. And, like, often it has to do with, like, love and sex in the X-Men universe.

But, like... Acceptance. Yeah. Acceptance in its many forms. Family. Found family. So on that front, the rogue front and the found family front, I loved that the thing that sparks, like, this is a violation moment.

when we're in, you love a mind palace, Joanna. I love psychic penetration. You love psychic penetration. You love psychic penetration. You love it on a husha vista. You hate a crevice and you love psychic penetration. Here's what I love that happened yesterday. Mallory and I had not seen the finale yet because it was a long week.

And then I watched it before Mallory did and I texted Mallory and Steve. Did Eric just say psychic penetration? And Mallory lacked the context. I forgot to give her the context of what I was talking about because I was just literally live texting about the finale. And Mallory had no idea until she watched the finale later. And then she was like, oh, that's what Joanna was talking about. Like more than half a day later.

I said someone in our life say this somewhere? What's like that? Siking penetration? Wild. Interesting. Interesting. Great stuff. Great stuff.

The moment when Rogue is shouting out and the choppy and the cold waters and that like breach into all of the different aspects of Eric's trauma. And what it means for Charles to be in his. mind. Like, this is a violation. But like, the other thing, I mean, I loved those sequences across the final episode between Charles and Eric. I just thought they were exceptional. It's probably my favorite part of the entire season. A thing that struck me was like in the finale, one of the things that we hear, actually this was in, so this was in episode nine. This was in the second part of the three part finale, not episode 10. But when

Magneto, you know, brings the asteroid to the mansion and he says, I promised a boy of future free of fear only to watch his frightened eyes be vaporized in his tiny skull because he believed me. In the dream, you had me sell. That's what he says to Charles. You had me sell. And it really, like, struck me. It reminded me so much of our conversation in an earlier pod about do not make me let you down. And these like passive framings of his threats and the way that he is justifying his actions, not only through the active charge of what he believes is right and necessary,

but the blame and culpability of the people around him who he thinks have failed and thus sparked, forced him to behave this way. It's just such a rich aspect of his character. Yeah.

Were you reminded at all? So Charles and Eric in the bar is like straight from the pages of the comic. So that's like a, you know, they're just reenacting something loosely reenacting something that happened in the comics. But I was reminded not get out your bingo cards and check off the box that says Joanna talks about lost. But I was reminded of, you know, Christian Shepherd and Sawyer in the bar and these just like these like sort of broken men finding this moment of I see you, you see me.

You know, this one was much more, the X-Men version was much more sexually charged. But like, I don't know. too like there's something about the ice rattling in magneto's glass a season long motif that I found just always makes you think of Christian Shepherd um I love that I love that comp I had another I wrote down in my notes at another point uh lost question mark and it was actually a bashing thing when he says you call yourselves a team of family but a family that can't save itself merely works together to die alone I was like just bastion watch lost live together die alone feels I feel like Bo to Mayo watches last.

Yeah. There were a few. Also, we got like a real Jamie Lannister magnito moment when he literally said there is no one like me. After which. Many of our favorite shows on our minds here. After which Charles says like the most Mallory Rubin thing I've ever heard in my life, right? The X-Men and I may not resemble each other, but we're still family. We had a dream, a dream that made us a family.

And like that dream, any family worth having is worth fighting for. What do you fight for? We talked about this a lot. We talked about like rings of power. You know, this idea of like what is what is the thing you're defending? What is the thing worth preserving and protecting? How do you build your fellowship? Yeah.

And it's not just like it's, it can't just be like an abstract. We have to save the world. It has to be something like much more human, for lack of better word, no offense to the mutants, that we watching at home can understand and identify, you know? And I loved that that's part of what I loved so much about the supreme intimacy of the Charles Eric sequences. Psychic penetration. The psychic penetration and the conclusion of the series of the season, I should say, Charles saying, but we never abandoned each other.

The only ones who can break our heart are those kept in it. It reminds, one of the things we love to talk about is like how the people who can hurt you the most are the ones who kill you the most. They know how to wound you and then can you push through that and make your way to the other side. And like the tenderness then, I mean, we know that the thing that is on the line is not only the fate of the world, but the psychic shattering of their respective minds if this doesn't go right. The way that Charles is enveloping him and holding him and saying, I have you. I'll always have you, even if. I'm pulled under too. I mean, it's just such an intense and powerful relationship. So I was going to ask you also if you had a favorite sequence among a duo in addition to a favorite individual character across either the finale or the season. I think because of how much I loved those sequences with Charles and Eric, that would be my pick, even though there are a ton of other great candidates.

Or you want to pick Scott and Cable? Well, can I slightly cheat and do a trio and say Gene and Scott and Cable? Because, like, the way that they made me care. Yeah, the eye scene. But even before that, tears. Even before that, when they were doing, like, the whole, like, basically bat family sequence, like, two episodes prior, I was like, I'm so invested in the summer's family.

Again, and I did not start the season that way. But, like, that their connection, when cable calls Jean's mom in the finale, like, it, it... And it calls them his folks and holding on me. Really, really, really worked on me. So, yeah, they're going to. by scene with taking off Scott's Pfizer, all of that. It just really, because it not only sells me on like them as parents or this family unit or Nathan as like a son who just is heartbroken that he had to grow up without his parents, but Scott and Jean as a, as a couple,

as people in love with each other. Um, you know, and especially when you compare it to the removing Scott's visor scene in X-Men live action films and how poorly that was executed. It's like this should be one of the most incredibly powerful moments, and it is. And then we cut to corporeal Scott just like visor off blasting like the, you know, yeah, exactly.

It's just incredible. I love to like one of the things that you were chatting about on our Thrones pod yesterday was when sometimes in a story we can shift from poignant rewarding callbacks into, oh, you're just saying your own lines again and having your own characters quote your own show. But like this is, this was an example, this visor removing moment of such a poignant callback because it makes us think, of course, of that moment from episode five when we're cutting back and forth between Gene and Scott sharing their memories of like their

formative experiences with each other. and we could see each other's eyes. They anchored me, focused me. His eyes made me stay. And like in episode five, when we heard that, things are falling apart for them. And you understood not only the literal significance of the power on display and what it would mean to be able to share that with each other in a way that you just could not with other people, but then thematically, emotionally what it means.

Like, it is this sacred thing that cannot be understood by other people or experienced by other people. And so to bring Nathan into that, it's a representation in a very literal sense of what their family is and what they can share with each other that they can't share with other people. So I thought that was really cool too. To jump ahead just because we're talking about the summer's family for a second. Comic spoiler hit fast forward a couple times. If you don't want to hear this, this is going to be one of the comic spoiler sections. You don't want to hear this. Hit fast forward. Let's say two to three times just to be safe starting. Now, okay.

So at the end, when everybody moves across time, some people go to the past, some people go to the future. Scott and Gene are in the future. And Clan Asconi, mother Asconi comes out. So Rachel Summers. So this is their daughter. This is their, yeah, the alt future version from Alt Scott Gene. So this is like, and they're the only two members of the, and then Nathan comes out as well. They're the only two members of the vanished X-Men who ended up in this period of time.

So that, at least that we know of. So that kind of further amplifies that, too, that they wound up in a space very much defined by their family and members of their family across the multiverse. And then everybody else ends up with apocalypse. If Vodamayo has, like, talked about where some of the other characters are, if he's said that on Twitter, does that feel like a spoiler to you? Or does that feel like kosher to talk about? I'll just say this. I do think it's significant that that's all the people we see in the future. Yeah.

That we're just like, wow, it's the whole. Summer's gang is here. Here we go. Yes, yes, yes. Did you have, before we talk about who wound up in the past and then what the Stinger is and what we're setting up there for the next season? Did you have a favorite episode this season? I'm assuming that I know the answer. Yeah, it's remember. And like, I'm going to think about that episode of television forever. No matter what happens in the Stinger or next season or whatever. Like that episode of television impacted me in a way that I can't, I fully, I'm supposed to articulate it for a living and I just don't think I can't.

I'm going to think about it forever. And it's not just what happens at the end of that episode, but like, you know, it's tempting to pick like favorite duo moment. It's attempting to pick, you know, rogue and gambit's breakup scene. I think that's one of the most incredible things I've ever seen from both of those characters. And, you know, again, when you give us a bunch of characters, when you give us Magneto and Rogue and Gambit, and we are emotionally invested in all of them getting what they want, and all of them getting what they want cannot happen unless they want to listen to our Challenger's Thruple episode

and get back to us. But like, so we're rooting for all of them, and their wants and needs are contradictory. That is just some of the juicy stuff of all time. And then not to mention, you know, what Gambit does at the end of that episode and what Magneto says at the end of that episode and how and then what rogue says. I mean, it's just, you know, and throughout everything Nightcrawler says and throughout everything, frankly, Ava Frost says, you know, it's just like, it's an exquisite episode of television that hits every, checks every box that I could possibly hope for. What was your emotional response in the finale to rogue attacking Bastion and saying his name was Gambit,

remember? Oh my God. When she was just like, when she thought of you so strongly. When she like Sonic clapped him when she was just punching him through space. I was just like, I was on, it was in heaven. I loved it. That was so good. I thought it was so great.

You mentioned, you mentioned Kurt. I just want to shout out our dude who had some absolute bars in the back half of this season. Like some incredible, deeply moving, resonant lines.

Actually, a lot of characters had, had quotes that I think will stand the test of time. One of the things I loved about the show, actually, is that someone will say something. And you're like, this is one of the most deeply profound things that I've ever heard.

Two seconds later, somebody will challenge the idea. But not in a way that mitigates how you felt about it two seconds prior. Like in episode seven, Logan is talking about Rogue because they're at Gambit's funeral. And they're like, where's Rogue? And Logan is like griefs a lonely war. And I was like, this is just like poetry. Griefs a lonely war. And then that idea is kind of immediate.

There's a follow up and a conversation. But I'm like, okay, I have now the intellectual inside of the story, rigor of interrogating that idea and what that means, if it's true, why it doesn't have to be. But also just the heft that those four words bring you when you hear them is kind of incredible. And then Kurt, the scene when Kurt and J. Gene are talking in part one of the finale about memory is gorgeous. Memories are merely dim images echoing with emotion. Does it matter if you heard his first cries if you remember how it felt to hear them?

Like this is an idea we talk about a lot, it's like a version of, of course, it is happening inside your head and some of the other things that we talk about. And like, blood is blood. Family is a choice. It's obviously not just Charles who is articulating over the course of the season, the found family idea. It just gets back to that ensemble discussion we were having earlier, like make the

space for even characters who don't have a standalone episode or who don't even really have full, like, true plot driving arcs to have moments of consequence. We get to hear Nightcrawler talk about mystique and talk about what it meant for him

and rogue to choose to accept and support each other. Like there was room and space somehow for all of that, for all of the characters incredible. I think to an even lesser degree, because Nightcrawler is a hugely popular X-Men character and was sort of brought in to sort of fill the space that Gambit left in the team in the back half of the season. But even more so, I think that example of what you're talking about

is something like Morf, who is there often for comic, very little stuff to do in this season of television, is there for comic relief, really fun visual gags of like deep-cut characters for, you know, the comic book nerds at home. Great. Love that. But then like his- Really enjoyed Morph smash when Morph was Brutley Hulk.

Yeah. But then like his longing for Logan, which is manifested in this finale, cop like props up a few times in the season. And then his trauma from Sinister, you know, which is like, that's, maybe you need a little bit more backstory to like fully grok. But like, you know, there is room for that. I would say, I actually think the character that got the shortest shrift this season, and I'm not that mad about it because I'm sure that they will find plenty of space for him in season two is Beast. Beast is a character that I love.

And Beast got some great lines is like referencing the Iliad, like doing great stuff. But like, you know, other than, you know, the burgeoning relationship or whatever, I'm not, I'm excited to see what more they do with that character. Yeah, the very active challenge of it. to Trish, perhaps the professor's vision for the future was too near-sighted and begging for your tolerance was her first mistake. Yeah. Because that was in episode seven and it felt like we were primed for a larger showcase for Beast in the final episodes.

But I think you had said maybe actually in our first pod as we were starting to anticipate, okay, well, where would the maybe single character episodes go? That just there wasn't going to be a, there wasn't going to be a single character focus in the final three period because it would be this ensemble joint story. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to a beast-centric arc in season two as well. You already cited this line, but the line of the only ones who can break our hearts are those kept in it. Rivals, you know, what is grief but not love persevering? Like, it is an all-timer.

I'm going to be thinking about that line. That line is going to help me understand how I care about people. Yeah, exactly. From an animated superhero television show. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Do you want to talk about Gambit for a second? Should we talk? Of course. We're going to talk about the Stinger. Let's talk about the Stinger. Make sure you watched it. I was talking to a friend of mine. He's like, oh, wait, is there mid-credits I missed? That's why I asked you. I mean, I shouldn't know better that you would, of course, watch through the credits. But I was talking to somebody's like, did I miss something? I was like, oh, yeah, you got to go watch the big-credit stinger. Okay, so, Joe, describe the mid-credit stinger where we see Gambits, charts, charge.

Queen card in Apocalypse's hand. Did you not just describe your... Take me through your... Take me through your... Well, okay, describe your emotional journey. And play out the string on where you think we're going and issue our contextual spoiler warning when you do so. Okay, so we know that the team has been divided across time

that Nightcrawled Charles, Eric Rogan Beast are in 3,000 BC. That's got Gene and Nathan, a version of Nathan. And perhaps some other people are in 3960 AD. We know, and we know from Forge's wall that, like, you know, Roberto and Jubilee are A wall and, like, a couple other things are happening. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witcher off planet, question mark. Anyway, but we meet apocalypse in the past in 3,000 BC, sort of in his origin story. And then we meet and we see apocalypse in the rubble of Genosha pulling out the playing card and saying, you know, so much pain, my children, so much death. And so here's the spoiler warning for people from comics canon, which is that in comics canon, Gambit has canonically become.

become one of Apocalypse's horsemen, specifically death. And so this possibility that Apocalypse will resurrect Gambit and make him death, as was hinted at earlier in the season when Charles had the vision of Gambit and his beautiful, handsome Cajun face turns into a skeleton. So Gambit will likely return as death. And as I I texted to Mallory and to Dave Gonzalez and to anyone else who would listen in. They're going to Winter Soldier Gambit. And like, that's going to, you know how well the Winter Soldier storyline works on me. If Gambit shows up, you know, and Rogue is like, Bucky, you know what I mean?

Like, it's going to be devastating because he's going to show up as like a hollowed out version of himself. and it's going to be devastating. There is... Well, anyone say you're my mission at any point. You're my gumbo share. Something like that, you know? And then more comics canon, spoiler warning, to say that if we're filling out the roster

of the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse, which is death, famine, war, and pestilence, then Logan, in his un-adamantium form has been drafted by Apocalypse I'll give you your adamantium back

come join me and there's other mitigating factors but like the idea that like I mean in that storyline Logan was also death so perhaps Logan will pour it over to like war given his history as a soldier like who's to say but you know and like which who else who else might Apocalypse

finding the rebel of Genosha Madeline Pryor, Emma Frost, like, who else might he bring up to be part of the team? Which other mutants might be vulnerable to being drafted into this team of villainy? But what all that means? All that's to say, not just that, like, okay, Gambit's coming back. Joanna, go back in time and tell yourself that you were right, of course. They always come back in comics. Magneto was right.

Joe was right. Well, Joe was wrong, but, like, she should have listened to the part of herself that was right. So Gamma's coming back, that means a lot. But what I'm hopeful for, as much as I didn't mind the speed through of the storylines in season one, I hope this like Apocalypse and the Horseman arc is a season long arc, or at least half a season arc or something like. Like, I don't want, you know, Storm got her powers back in the span of like three episodes. I don't want Gambit to come back as death and then be like reconstituted within a couple episodes. I need that to be.

I need the apocalypse story to be like a season-long arc or at least half a season. Like that would be my hope. Those scripts are already written, so my hopes don't matter. But I think that is a juicier storytelling to make us wait for that. Yeah. My guess is that it will be the entire season. I hope so. we have some side quests here and there.

You know, after three, we go deal with another, yeah, a little threat for a minute, episode six, etc. But if, but if, like, they made us wait for a Wolverine episode and ultimately Logan's episode is the recruitment to apocalypse, like, that is, that's incredible. On the war front, too, it's like, I mean, obviously Logan is often referencing his history and battle and war and pain. but like the last thing we hear before, before Eric rips the adamantium out of him. Adam did like, he was like, should the guy with the metal of his body be going to fight Magneto?

And then. And then immediately like pulled out of his body. Been in a lot of wars, Bub the brave always die first. Like, that just feels like such a hard bit of time. Obviously he's attempting to murder Magneto as he's saying that. but to spin that and flip that and to send us into this.

We should also say that canonically, without his adamantium, Logan has gone like feral, like feral wolverine. So is that a storyline we're going to get? Neil and Dave were talking to me about this on Child by Content, and they were teasing me because they were like, do you think he's going to come back with a wolf brain? Just like you wanted for John Snow, Joanna, are you finally going to get your wolf brain story? I was like, maybe. Who knows?

I, as you go, I am a huge proponent of the... John should have come back with Wolfbrain. Yeah. Of the Wolfbra. I mean, Joe, still could happen because, as you know, in Bookland... I know. We're still waiting. George.

Who knows? The winter wins. Joe? We're winning. Anything else? Anything else on episode 10? Anything else on Tolerance is Extinction Parts 1, 2, 3? Anything else on the first season overall?

Any other thoughts that you want to share? Just the last thing I want to say before we go on this finale is you already shouted out Theo James. I just thought Theo James was like absolutely incredible in this voice performance as Bastion. Just so good. Unbelievable. And then the choral version of the X-Men theme that plays. That was haunting. Yeah, was absolutely what a glorious choice.

Yeah. How about you? Fantastic. No, I think we did it. I can't wait for season two. I can't wait. Actually, yeah, I do have one more thing to say. Thank you.

You're welcome. I'm thrilled that our beloved colleague and genuinely one of my closest friends in the world, Sean Fantasy loved X-Men 97. I think that's great. Sean quote tweeted. Went back to the 2020-house-of-R hype draft tweet of the graphic, went back and quote tweeted it last night and said, please to like, I'm paraphrasing, please to announce that I have retroactively won.

Of course. The 2020 House of Our HIPFRAF. Now, I do just feel, listen, Sean loving X-Men 97 and loving the House for our hype draft,

this is great. This is all good news, purely good news. I do just feel compelled to mention, though. Just let him have it. No? Then I'm the one

who drafted X-Men 97 in the year in which it actually aired. I'm just going to throw that out there. That's all. Should you also mention that Sean asked us if he can watch

Rings of Power season two? Dude, us getting Sean to Middle Earth This year is going to be like, it's peak life goal stuff. I love the dress. I mean, Sean loves Lord of the Rings. It's going to be wonderful to share rings and power with him. Great.

Can't wait. We did it. Can't wait. Just going to start texting him every day. It's easy power and see if that builds or diminishes his hype. We'll find out. Yeah. We'll find out.

Okay. Go rest that beautiful brain of yours. Thanks, darling. I love you. Just want you to be safe and healthy and happy and happy and hold. Who let all these cartoon birds in here? No. No. All right. Thank you. Some thank yous. I'm going to say thank you to you, Joe. You're a champion. Every now and that I'm like, I woke up and I don't feel well. We'll see you in like four days. And today you're like, I'm concussed. I'll be there. So ill-advised, though it may be, thanks to you for being a fucking champion. Thank you to Steve Allman for producing.

this episode and the many hours of other podcasts that we did this week. Thank you to Arjuna, Ramka Pal, for his additional production work on this episode. And thank you to Jomi, a dinner on for his work on the social for this episode. We will be back. Not next week, but the week after. Tuesday, May 28th, that's the plan for a Furiosa deep dive. I mean, it's nonstop action from there. The ringer verse, will keep you entertained next week. Button mash on Thursday. Midnight boys,

pew, pew, pew! On Friday. Until then, our name is House of R. Remember it.