House of R - 'The Acolyte' Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

The Jedi might be bad, but Jo and Mal are here to talk you through it as they dive into 'The Acolyte' Episode 3 (08:13). They kick off their deep dive with the witchy origins of Mae and Osha, and pick apart the troubled past that haunts them and the Jedi (20:08). Later, they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to discuss the early 'Star Wars' lore and what it means for the rest of the season (01:43:03). Be sure to get tickets for the Ringer Residency in Los Angeles this summer! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Producers: Steve Ahlman, John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. The Jedi are bad. The Jedi are good. This isn't about good or bad. This is about power. And who is allowed to use it? You're a very powerful girl.

Right now you want to be a Jedi. But as you grow, what you want, it changes, it shifts. Like the seasons. Bad babies. And welcome to House of Our on video. If you hadn't already heard, we're now doing House of Our Midnight Boys Talk the Thrones

on the Ring ofverse YouTube channel in addition to wherever you get your podcast. That's right. So this is House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today.

She's the red moon to my blue moon. It's Mallory Rubin. Joanna, what the thread has tied together, no one can separate. Oh my gosh. What I'm beautiful.

I'm thrilled to be here with you in person today in a studio with cameras. It's a whole new world for us. Yeah. We're going to be here all summer. doing this in person.

You're definitely not going to get sick of me. No, impossible. Our bond is just going to grow closer and closer. It seems possible. Yes, that part's true. Yeah. Yes. Because, you know, the thread tied us together.

Since before we ever podcast together. Okay, so listen, we're doing Talk the Thrones, and that is very important and exciting for us. We're going to be doing it on video. There's a whole set involved. It's going to be amazing. So Talk the Thrones after House of the Dragon on Sunday, and that's really exciting. Can't wait.

But also. But wait, there's more. Talk the Thurons. Thrones live. Oh, man. Tuesday, June 25th at the L. Ray Theater. Thrilling. Tickets are still available. Get them now. Joanna Robinson. Maller Rubin. Christopher J. Ryan, I think. And some pals, some guests. Hang out with us on the podcast or video platform of your choosing on Sunday nights right after the episodes and then come hang out with us in person. In person, the L.R.A. On Tuesday, June 25th.

Thrilling. Who could ask for anything more? So that's it. Yeah. House the Dragon, Acolyte. That's what we're covering for the next couple weeks. Over in the Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo!

They're being a little bit of overachievers because they're doing House of the Dragon, Acolyte, and the boys. Yeah. So you're going to hear from them twice a week. You're going to hear from us three times a week. I guess we're all overachievers here at the Ringervverse. Also, overachieving. Mint Edition is going to be doing Inside Out 2.

So if you want to get your Pixar takes in or out. Always. That is where you're going to find them over on Mint Edition. That's a program reminders. Yeah. Find us again on YouTube on the Ringerberg's channel. Subscribe. Subscribe.

What, smash that bell or something like that? I don't know. I'm new to YouTube. That's exactly what everyone says and how they say it. Smash that bell. Okay, great. So do that. Molly Rubin.

Joanna Robinson. How else can people find us? Oh, thanks for asking. Yeah, you're welcome. After you smash that bell. Yeah. I believe I got that right. Thanks. You know, follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, do all that stuff.

And then find the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're everywhere, Joe. You looked right down the camera just for Jomey for that moment. I love that for you. Or everywhere. The ringer versus on Twitter. The ringer versus on Instagram. the ringerverse is on TikTok.

You can find video clips from these video podcasts that we're doing. It's true. You can find all sorts of updates, programming reminders, little glimpses of our wonderful in-person time together. Why would you not be following the ringerverse on the social media platform if you're choosing?

And then, of course, you have a thought that's maybe longer than a tweet. Oh, yeah. And send an email. Because the inbox is open. The inbox is active. Yes. Hobbit and Dragons.

at gmail.com. We're at the point in what the men I boys are calling the content cornucopia. I like content cornucopia. I like it. I like content gauntlet because it kind of rhymes

and it describes what we're going to be running this summer. So in the midst of the content gauntlet, we had a ton of accolite emails. As soon as the episode was over, people were firing off their hot takes.

So, you know, we're back in session. Hobbs and Drag is at Gmail. Very exciting. Spoiler warning today. Yes. All of Star Wars? All of Star Wars. Movies, comic books.

Everything. Animated shows. Certainly episode 3 of the Ackleys, certainly everything that's happened in the Ackleight today. But yeah, if it's ever happened in Star Wars, it's something that we might talk about today. You know, if it's a witchy thing, it's possible it could come up today. Okay. You love a witch?

I do. Spice creams? Spice creams. You might be talking about some vaginally inclined art. Great. Love that you went there first. So that's an exciting thing to get into the intro. Speaking of, I don't know.

about speaking of, but that's the transition I choose to use here. Benjamin Lindbergh is going to be on the podcast today to do a lore corner with us. It was an immaculate transition. I don't know what you're talking about. Ben's going to be here to talk to us about... We're piping him in. Yeah. On the monitor. He's not going to be running in that door. He's going to be on the screen. Yeah, he's on the monitor exactly where we all left him in the Ring Reverse YouTube trailer. Right. Great stuff. Great bit from Ben. at Ardina in that one. Very good. Very good.

Let's get into it, shall we? I mean, I suppose we might as well. Quick facts. We're here to talk about Ackolite, Episode 3, Destiny. I damaged Mallory's brain by mentioning a couple weeks ago that every time I hear the word Acolyte, I think of the Dave Matthews band song, Satellite. I can't stop. Akelight to the same tune.

and now Mallor just responds to everything with that little tune in her mind. Okay, so we're here talking about episode three, Destiny. Yep. No duality in this episode title. Yeah, I miss it. Do you think that's because the twins are together in this episode or do you think it's because we're only seeing this episode

from one point of view? Would you say a certain point of view? I would say a certain point of view. This is a podcast about Star Wars. Oh, yeah? Is that a line from Star Wars? I didn't know. That's a good question. I guess we'll probably find out for sure come episode four, right? Whatever the titling is there. Maybe we'll give us the clarity of what sort of titling parameter we're following. I have some questions about whether we are only definitively in one point of view. We are definitely not only indefinitely in one point of view. But like maybe it's because they're together rather than. I think it's definitely like a skewed point of view. For sure. But it is not a.

a strict, clean this character's point of view. I got very particular about that when I was going back through the episode. Okay, this episode

was written by Jasmine Flournoy and Eileen Schim. Eileen Schim wrote episode eight of Season 1 of House of the Dragon, an episode that we love. Aviala it lots.

And she will be on the upcoming Vision Quest show, so that's excited. And this was directed by the great Coconata, who directed the films Columbus,

and after Yang, after Yang, Stars Jody Turner Smith as a concerned mother of a special child. Sound familiar? Sure does. Yeah, Koconata doing this. We were really excited preseason to hear that this director was going to be working on this season of television. 44 minutes.

Mm-hmm. A longish one. Yeah. Compared to episode two. Let's do, let's just do the opening snapshot. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right, Mallory. Quick overall thoughts about the episode, thoughts about getting the flashback episode so soon. You were asking about this when we talked last week. Did this satisfy you? Was it additive to what we already knew about May and OSHA's backstory? I also asked last week if we might see a Jedi just steal a child's blood without asking at some point. Sure enough, we were rewarded. That was a thrill for me.

Pretty mixed on this episode. And it's the kind of episode where in real time I can feel that I am unable to properly assess whether it totally worked for me until I see the entire season. Yeah. I could see going back to this episode after we complete the eight episode first season and thinking that this was a brilliant way to expand not only the timeline, but the nature. of the mystery and how we're navigating parsing the mystery. In real time, I found it to be

like emotionally compelling, thematically intriguing and in other ways, like a little bit odd. I'm still having some of the... I'm liking the show overall. Yeah. I'm like incredibly excited to keep watching. And overall, I'm enjoying the show. I love the

chosen focus. the examination of the Jedi, right? The Jedi as gatekeeper, etc. I'm genuinely really into that. Intergalactic cops, yeah. The Jedi, like, do not come off well in this episode, and I think that's fascinating. Sort of talking about when we cover the first two episodes,

the proposition of the show was from a Sith point of view. And so whether or not you would consider this strictly a Sith point of view, we don't know where these witches align necessarily. But it's certainly not a pro- Jedi point of view this episode. No, absolutely not. And so I like that and I like the show's ambition in that respect. And I'm really excited to keep watching like what the assessment of the Jedi pursuits are, right, and where the show comes down and where the characters who are either outside of that or a part of it and end up coming down, right, or what they might be complicit in. I think that's fascinating. In terms of your question about like,

was this the right time for a flashback episode, that actually didn't really bother me. Yeah. I kind of, again, like we'll see because part of what I leave this episode thinking is that maybe maybe we get another flashback episode and that maybe it is, oh, definitely. Maybe it is not only another flashback episode, but maybe it is said in this exact same stretch of time. Perhaps we extend a little bit in either direction, because I think we still need to understand what brought the Jedi to Brendak and then that particular like permutation

of being there. And then certainly what happened during the fire, which was a... To the witches. Quite an odd. When they all sort of cry out and we very specifically don't see what happened. Yes. And they do not look burnt at all? So you're saying there's going to be more that we see there?

A lot of like scrunched up face response to that as you're watching in real time trying to figure out what's happening, which is, of course, by design, right? We're not supposed to leave this episode with a totally clear picture, either because of, to your point, like, whose perspective are we seeing this from? Yeah. Or because we just haven't actually seen what all of the characters are up to and those things are entwined. So if we get another flashback and it feels like, okay, every couple episodes we're in the present day and then we move back and we have an increasingly full picture of what unfolded and we're gaining that clarity. in lackstep with the characters. I think that could actually be cool. It didn't feel too soon to me to do a flashback.

I just beat to beat scene to scene minute to minute. It just wasn't the strongest episode. And there's something about the pace and the cadence and the way the characters are speaking that I'm still just like acclimating to. I did think that Jody's performance was exceptional. Absolutely. Absolutely exquisite.

And I know you love a witch. So that was exciting. What did you think of the episode? And there were so many witches. They were. They're cloaked. They're singing. You got an impromptu musical number.

there were lesbian witches. Who could ask for any more? A beautiful forest, a poison tree. The poison bunta tree was absolutely gorgeous. I think this was a... I think this was like a half of a great episode. I think all the Jody stuff works. I think every time she's talking, I'm mesmerized.

I think the fact that there are a ton of witches here is really exciting for me. You love a witch. I think watching... You love a flashback wig and flashback bangs. And we got so many of those. Everyone had bangs in the past, and that is great news for all of us. So all of that worked for me. I think the kids were a little tough for me, and Star Wars, of course, has a grand tradition of...

I don't love, like, critiquing children in their performances. They're, like, doing their best. But I feel like... And I think maybe one was, like, a little bit more dialed in than the other, but I just think overall these two kids and the fact that we watch them have a very similar conversation over and over and over again. Like I really felt like I got that dynamic from the first conversation. And then we had like six other versions of it in the episode. That dragged for me.

But I think you're right. Like perhaps if this were just episode three, you know I'm always pro week to week, but if this were in a binge, probably it would not stick out as much to me. But as it is, yeah, this is like a mixed bag for me. But there's a lot of... There's a lot to be had in terms of theorizing that is really exciting. A lot of, like, possibility here. And I definitely agree we're going to get more flashback.

We're going to fill in the gaps of what we didn't see in this episode. But as you alluded to, we are in, we're not strictly in OSHA's POV because we get scenes without her in it. So how could she know what happened when she wasn't there, right? So we're not 100% in OSHA's, but we are mostly in OSHA's point of view. So are we going to get what May saw? Or are we going to get what the Jedi saw? That's the one that I feel is more essential. Oh, yes.

And I'm excited when we get to the fire, because the fire sequence is emblematic of the entire episode to me, where I was simultaneously like, this is, I'm thinking about questions. I'm looking at Torbin's face in the background, right? The wound is there. When Soul is tending to OSHA after she wakes, And he's scarred.

It's freely bleeding. Something horrible has happened. You already mentioned like, wait. So there's a rumbling and a shaking and then all the witches are dead. How did the fire spell? We'll talk about all that more when we get there. But it's prompting the fun theorizing of like, and why was Sol there so quickly in the first place? Like, shouldn't they be off over on their ship?

What are they doing there? Is there some other guiding hand at play? All of that's interesting to me. But I don't think that changes the fact that even. real time, it just feels a little in elegant. I agree. Except for literally everything Jody Turner Smith does. Wonderful.

Would you let Mother Anisa give you a forehead tattoo? 100%. Great. I think it's beautiful. The white swirl. Yes. Mostly hidden by my bangs, but when I need to like sort of let people know. So Anisa tell which twin you are?

Yeah. Are you about her or you Joanna? I'll be like, I've got the forehead tattoo. Otherwise, we're identical. So, last but not least, before we get to sort of the deep dive, we got a lot of emails from people asking, we can hear the call in our ear. So that's a delight. Thank you, Steve. Where's Yoda?

Many emailers asked, where's Yoda? Shouldn't Yoda be here? I'm not, you know, just because someone's alive in an era doesn't mean they need to be, like, in the show. but do you even want Yoda in this show? How do you feel about it? Absolutely not. And this is actually like pretty uncomplicated for me. You know, I love to say I'm at war with myself, I'm up to your minds.

Or like I'm a glutton for like, give me all the content, give me the nostalgia, give me everything. This is pretty easy for me. Yeah. The fact that Yoda is alive is like not actually relevant. I think part of what we need to understand about this era is the scope of the order, right? So we are focusing our attention on a Padawan and her actually not dead twin. Still a fun episode one twist. That was great.

And this quartet of Jedi who made their way for mysterious reasons. I mean, it's not mysterious that they're stealing people's children. That part's clear. We'll talk about that. Just Saul just like snooping and sneaking behind trees. Tough one there for our guy. That one hurt. But we're focusing in on a group of people.

And the order is vast and everybody's going about their business in the galaxy. And so Yoda's posted up in a noodle bar elsewhere in the galaxy. Yoda's got things going on. Like, there's that. It just, I don't know that we need to imply that everybody is, like, in touch and in each other's lives all the time. Because there's so many Jedi. Yeah. But I think, like, if you were, like, referenced or something that would be fine to me.

But to me, it's actually more about what we talked about last week, which is how different. and separate and standalone is this show really. And I remain a little, I'm still kind of finding my bearings with that. And I'm, again, I'll reserve judgment until the end of the show because there are some parts of the connection to just how we think about what a Star Wars story is. Like putting aside the Skywalker saga, a piece of it for a minute. This idea of how the Jedi think about attachment, et cetera, et cetera, all the stuff we talked about last week, it makes sense to me that that's a part of this. The idea of taking a... theme that we're accustomed to examining and perhaps inverting or in some way recalibrating

what the story does with that. Yeah. I think is great. The more we're going to, we will be saying things like Palpatine and Anakin and Forced Diad and Immaculate Conception a lot today. Quigion. Quigion. Quigion.

Midichlorian Jesus. That midi count. That midi count. Stolen blood, blah, blah, blah. Parallels. cycles, ripples across time, into it. Too many direct tethers to the story that this show was sort of positioned as not being a part of.

And again, like how you walked out line to intentionally and deliberately like paving the way to something so that we better understand how those characters wound up in that circumstance, okay, but then if it's like just Yoda sitting here, it actually at some point it becomes impossible to accept that he allowed Palpatine to rise. I just think he kind of can't be a part of this. I mean, this is welcome to the dark side because this is where I was with like, I don't want Leah and the Obi-Wan show, like, because that is hard to make sense of.

Or I actually don't want that much Luke Skywalker and Mando. Like, I really liked that Mando was his own thing. So, like, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also don't want a Darth last name that we already know to be a part of this, you know. That's how it works in the Sith, right? That's your last name. You're like, Mr. Plagueis. Okay.

Just making sure. That's where you get your mail addresses, like Mr. and Mrs. Plagis. Just thinking it's right. Okay. Let's go now to the deep dive. Do you think Tharth-Belagas was a big, like, handwritten scroll? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Heavy into correspondence. He's also, he's pretty susceptible to chain letters. I mean, have you heard? Deep dive. Let's do it. I always forget that that's there. Me too. Every time.

Dateline. Frienduck. I love that you're sticking with this. 16 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. The first thing we see as we sort of, again, in one of the many incredible establishing shots of like beautiful, we are definitely in real nature, we are not in the volume shots.

We get this like beautiful, craggy cliffside, then we get this storn in. Stornin, stonehead-esque shape that can invoke either a typhoon from Matoorian season 2 or Citos from Asoka. we've seen these sort of stones before, and they're either, you know, for the Jedi or, you know, it's witch stuff. And in this case, we're pretty sure it's witch stuff, but, you know, who's to say? But did you have any, did this spark anything for you? I... Are you a big henge person in general? A lot, love.

Yeah, you're pro-henge. Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Like, it makes me actually think of your prestige TV potting on Shogun and discussing a little rock. can represent I love Hensh. I thought this like introductory stretch

of the episode visually was stunning. Yeah, the Bounda tree. Limber wrote about this in his recap and I thought this was an astute observation. The gap between the exterior shots and the interior shots

in this episode was it was sort of impossible to not think about as you were watching it. When we were just sweeping in, you have a sense of place. One of the things that we love about the sense of place is not only

what it tells us about a community, but about the galaxy. Like, we always talk about in Star Wars, the galaxy is so big. And so places should feel different. They should feel special. And then you think, one of the weather system per planet, but they should be different from each other. This is one of my favorite obsessions of yours. I mean this sincerely, like the wide as every planet seem like, it's just one square block of one town. It's a fair point. It's a fair point. And then we go to the, but we go to the Bonta tree. This was like gorgeous. A blue, Mushrooms. Yeah.

This little fluttering creature comes in. It's like a hummingbird morphed with a fish, morphed with a gummy bear. I thought it was beautiful. But also a butterfly. Sure. Like most obviously a galactic butterfly, for sure. That's fourth on my list below hummingbird fish and gummy bear. So we get this.

So, Osha's sitting there. She's messing around with the force. By the force, I of course mean the thread. And she's freezing the creature. I've seen a lot of interpretations of this of like what OSHA's doing is like just curiosity and what May is doing is kind of cruel. The difference between the way that they're freezing these creatures. I actually kind of disagree. I feel like what we see in OSHA there is like she's also capable of this.

Sure. She just sort of tamps it down a bit faster than May does. But like that idea of like pulling wings off the butterfly, which is sort of, what they're invoking here. Or the gummy bear. You know how you pull wings off a gummy bear. I think people do. And say. They, like, OSHA has a bit of that in her.

Yeah, there's this question of, like, how much is OSHA tamping down the darkness that is also present in her? I think any time, whatever the exact maybe intention or conscious aspect of what she's doing is there, like, it's hard not to think anytime you're seeing a character hold another living. being in a position of stasis like that and controlling another life form, that there's something sinister about it. And I think actually that question of, well, is it curiosity versus control? That's what was cool about it to me, because I think we can simultaneously say what we're both saying, which is like there's something there that pings as alarming, which is also how I felt about it. But that idea of reinforcing to us that maybe it is only a matter of degree. Exactly.

And that a tiny thing in your life, a choice somebody else makes, a choice you make, whether the light fixtures on everybody's door have uncontrollable, voluminous flames coming out of them can tip you over the edge. And I think also there's a really interesting, what I love. love more than almost anything else about this episode is the needle that they thread, no pun intended, with the witches in terms of like, are they good or are they bad? And I think what the show is really asking you to consider is it depends on your point of view. Right. Entirely from that certain point of view. But they're not, it's the show I think, and I hope continues to, refuses to take a stand on whether or not. I don't think there's going to be some big reveal later on that this is actually

like a Sith cult or anything like that. There are some like, you know, I think obviously there are some connections that we can draw and we can talk about those things. There's definitely like certain mother quarrel certainly like quicker on the trigger of like who's going to miss these four Jedi, you know,

that sort of stuff, but it's complicated. It made me laugh so much. I'm like if only Coral had been around to enjoy Order 66, Coral would have fucking loved Order 66. She's like, no one's going to miss these four. But like, let's get rid of them all. But that I hope that it's not going to be a reveal later on, like, actually when we see the Jedi point of view, the witches are just evil, the witches are trying to protect something that belongs to them.

And what would you do if someone showed up knocking the door and said, hey, we want to take your children, you know. Your children that you created in unnatural ways, then maybe we should be a little scared about. But it's like, it's tipping really. back and forth constantly with these witches and I just like never I never want the show I want it to be up to us to decide whether or not these women deserved to just be left alone

because coming on this episode I'm like just leave these women alone none of this would have happened if the Jedi had just minded their own business right yeah but the Jedi are going to feel like you know as Torben said in a tremendous wig before he took some but to poison like you know we thought what you were doing is right Right. So, you know. There was a little bit of a rings of power touch the darkness element to this, right?

Especially for the kids. And I think that question of, is it dark side? Is it light side? And a Star Wars story where I was thinking about balance. Well, what is in between was, I agree, like, very, very present here. And I like what you're sketching out about, like, leaving it up to, this is a way that the journey for the viewer and the characters can really be joined. Yeah. Like, leaving it up to us to.

to make a decision, whether it's a logical one or a moral one or a philosophical one, about what it means to align yourself with another person, to live your life a certain way. And that like, the Buntotri is so beautiful. But, oh, Shad's dangerous. Only if we eat it line. Yeah. Felt very entwined with that idea. This thing, you are literally sitting under this thing.

Poison tree? You don't do it? Like, personally, to be in. In my home. That's true. In pajamas, under the comfort of a fleece blanket with my cat on my lap as safe as I can possibly be. I do not think I would choose to spend my leisure time under a poison tree, but I do like this idea that this stunning canopy that seems so welcoming and inviting and peaceful could kill you. And we actually have seen that happen in the prior episode, right?

The Bonta Pedal put into the poison that Torb and drank. And that only if we eat it line, I thought more than some other parts of the episode, like definitely summed up that, that idea of like, well, you can decide how you engage with that. You can decide whether you activate that possibility. I also really like that sort of like Garden of Eden, Eden, Eden, eugenic imagery of like the tree that is beautiful but dangerous to if you eat it. And here are the, here we meet the twins in a place of innocence and everything that happens after is an intrusion on this paradise.

Yeah. And there was like a highly religious quality to the entire episode. Whether it's the kind of like sermon-like nature of some of the speeches or the idolation and worship at play in some of the rituals, that felt, yeah, very, very present throughout. May is like accusing O'Sha. She's like, why do you always run off alone? Why are you always doing this? And I just want to, we don't need to dwell on this because they kind of go back to this well a couple times in this episode. But I do want to just underline something that Leslie said in the conversation that we had with her last week is this idea.

idea of thinking about May and OSHA, and again, this episode really underlines this as like diametrically opposed in their I want nature. We're so accustomed to the I want of either like a Disney princess or a moisture farmer from Tatooine or whatever. You know, you stare off into the distance, I want. Yeah. I want to go adventuring. And the fact that there would be someone like May who was like, like you, I want to stay home. I'm good where I am. Yeah. With my cozy blanket and my cat. Like, I don't need to go adventuring. I have everything I want right here. I can door dash whatever I need. I'm fine. So that idea of May as a creature who exists to be in opposition to the classic Star Wars heroic, I want to get off this rock and go see another, you know, does it rain on another planet? I would like to know, stuff like that.

Tell me of your home world, Ussel. Yeah. It's that part of the twin dynamic and the recurring nature of their conversation, that aspect at least was interesting to me because I think one of the things that the episode does well, neither of them is really like clearly right or clearly wrong. And that's the point. It's about what you want. And there are some lovely conversations later that we'll get to between Mother Anasea and OSHA about the episodes called Destiny for a reason,

this idea of pulling on the thread, making choices, doing something different. Like, we should not think that OSHA's desire to heed the call to adventure is in any way wrong. And it's like a very relatable thing to say, well, oh, my God, like, if I got, I was going to say if I got my Hogwarts letter, the Jedi coming to steal you and like you'll never see your family again, like, at least the Hogwarts kids get to go home on holidays. And like Hagrid open with a cake, not would you like to like to? handle my lightsaber? I have some questions about the lightsaber. Sal.

Please. But, you know, of course, like the idea of going out into the wider world and discover, I think we both, we both were thinking a little bit of the Harfuts

and Marigold and Norrie from again, season one of Rings of Power with that, like, how you ever wondered? Yeah, Nory, like, haven't you ever wondered? And the, the,

the village, this, this group of people, like, well, nobody walks alone. Like, we stay together. We do our, how we do it. Why would you want to do it any other way? And out there lies danger and risk and harm. And then similarly, like for May, I think that May comes off as the difference between them ultimately

is that OSHA doesn't tell May that she has to do what OSHA wants. Whereas May does say you have to do what I want. And that is a, that is a distinction that the episode should cause. Or I'll kill you. Or I'll kill you. That happened quickly. That's a real anchor man. Like that has got a quickly gift moment for me. We have some questions. We have some theories about that. For sure. Oh, man. But you can understand wanting to stay home with your family and not losing the person closest to you in the world. And you can understand wanting to go explore something new. When staying at home means you're never allowed to leave the fortress. That's a bit of a bummer, right? When all you want to do is sit under a poison tree and pull the wings off gummy bears. And then like when your twin is like, let's say our codependent rhyme together, right? I am with you, always one, but born is two. As above sit the stars, as below lies the sea. I give you you, you give me me. That's not healthy behavior. even though it is a jaunty little rhyme. Yeah. And I'm going to hit you with our first of many force dyad references.

And I refuse to apologize. No. Because it's just the text of this show. Yeah. Here's what Ben Solo says. My mother was the daughter of Vader. Remember this, Rises Skywalker? My mother was the daughter of Vader.

Your father was the son of the emperor. What Palpatine doesn't know is we're died in the forest, Ray, two that are one. That language, two that are one. Yes. Always one, but born is. It was very intentional referential. Yes. This idea of like one force being.

Yeah. We're going to talk more about the Immaculate Conception stuff, which obviously ties to, you're talking about Kylo right here, but that obviously ties us to Anakin. And we're connecting in interesting ways to some key figures in Star Wars canon here. The later line about their particular connection via the thread also kind of. Before they were born. Reenforces. Yeah. Tied together before they were born.

Yeah. This definitely feels like theory corner fodder. Here comes, why can't I kill these Jedi of Mother Quarrel? Yeah. A Zabrek. And she's like, what are you doing outside the fortress? Yes. We got to go home.

What are you doing out here? And you're like, wow, that's a little harsh. And then the music gets ominous. We see a hooded figure lurking behind a tree. And we're like, who's this villain? And then we're like, uh-oh. It's our favorite character soul. Duff moment.

Hot bummer for us. us, the Soul Patrol, as one of our listeners called it. Wow, Yord Horde and Soul Patrol. Exactly. I love it. I love it too. So I love this, again, this is the what point of view. From a certain point of view, soul, our favorite character of the show so far, with the hood up, lurking and a sneaking in a snoop behind a tree. Had some children. One of the things that makes the, is this OSHA's point of view episode really a complex?

because at least so far, we have no, we still don't know why OSHA left the order, but it seems like that relationship is intact and strong and that there would not be a reason and OSHA is the one in this timeline who's like, I want to go. I want to be a Jedi. So if it's just OSHA's point of view, then like why is that the framing? She would not have called for that music cue. Yeah, exactly. She would not have been like. She would have scored that scene differently. She wouldn't have been like cue the Sinister Bassoons, please. And so that makes it feel like it's more of the Coven perspective. or a mix or entwined or just not quite as tidy. It's just a little messy. Because we'll talk about this a little later on. Are we just talking about right now? The Roshamon's perspective of this. No one's ever seen the 1950 classic Kurosawa film Roshamon. It is a story where multiple people tell their version of a murder. And every time you see it, because you see it over and over again, it is told different. Yeah. And if you'd like a more contemporary example, you could watch modern, classic, The Affair? Where each other is...

I can't believe. Yes, you can. You can believe it. Is it because Jody Turner Smith was married to Joshua Jackson, who was on the affair? And that's why you're thinking about the affair? Man, yeah, Cole is always on my mind. The, yeah, the first half of the episode is one character's perspective on events, and the second half is another.

And they're off to the details are quite distinct. Watch either The Affair or Roshamon. Either. Same level of quality. We all agree. So Roshamon is very strictly in a point of view. This is not what we're watching here. But I would say skewed towards OSHA's point of view,

just because the key things that we don't see, the reason we don't see them is because we're with OSHA is sort of how it feels. Okay. Okay. Did Georgia O'Keefe fame painter of suggestive flowers design this fortress? Could be. Okay. Yeah, could be. Not the first thing in Star Wars, whether it's a mountainous layer or a sarlac pit. Oh, I was thinking what Ray dives into.

Yeah, or that. On Octo. Yeah. You know, a lot of moments in Star Wars where we are, you know, the camera and the audience alike, penetrating some sort of vaginal abyss. So there's a lot to think about there. Thank you. Given that we're about to head into an all female coven, you know, and given that Oshed may have two mothers, given how like little of fair core we are in our time here, I think the shape of this particular fortress is wholly intentional. We get the first glimpse of the dual moons in the background of the fortress here. We'll see them much more, you know, when the sky is dark for the ascension, we'll see them aligning. we'll see them in lighting, but I think that

seeing them there, noting that the red and the blue form the O in the Acolyte logo, that's a really fun moment for me. Anything you want to say about spice creams? Sounds absolutely delicious. I have some questions about

the trade policy of this enclave of women. Like, how do they get all their goods? Yeah. Are they wholly self-sufficient? Or do they? do they take their long bows and go out trading in the galaxy? Right. Because we know they're hunters.

They hunt in all seasons. Interesting conversation about that later in the episode. But where did they get the reeds for their baskets? You know what I mean? I just like have some. Yeah. Interesting. Perhaps they're involved in an exchange with another coven of exiled witches.

Yeah. Coven, coven trade. Like dotted, dotted across. It's not a smattering. A smattering. Which covens across the galaxy, the different natural resources at your disposal in a given location. It's a great question.

This is why you're the best. Because you were thinking about how would this society actually function? And I was thinking, how can I get my hands on a spice cream immediately? What is the commute at this exact moment in time down to galaxy's edge from my home? And, you know, if Coral wants the children to. remain content in the fortress, let him have a fucking snack. A sweet treat. Yeah.

My girls. You know, I'm not a parent, so I don't actually know how to ensure the children have balanced nutritional diets. But when Halo is like, I'd like a treat him like, you got it, buddy. What if he had misbehaved and gone outside the house when he's not supposed to? Well, he's an angel. Oh, it never does anything. Everything he does is perfect.

Okay. So one thing I will note is when they walk into this courtyard filled with many goods and services, that one creator could not provide. The women seem to be bowing to the girls. So they have this place and we'll find out later that they're the reason these women aren't going to go extinct, you know, extinct that they've found some young women here. Leslie Hadlam has said these witches are not the night sisters, but they are inspired by the night sisters. And also the path of the open hand, which is, you know, a fringe sect, I would say. that you could read about in the High Republic novels.

So if you want to do your High Republic homework, again, you don't have to, but you can. But the path of the open hand is one of those groups that had a different point of view when it came to the Force and how to use it. And that the Jedi shouldn't be allowed to. Yeah. Nightsisters, of course, of course on our minds here, the thread language that we got some real, oh, it's ping in great mothers in Asoka for me, comps there. Just helpful in terms of clarifying for us that it's not the same to give us purple mist instead of green. When we're pulling the magic down and using it to plant a foreign tat on a youngster. We've got beautiful face tattoos and not like.

like horrible white makeup like we saw on the Night Sisters of Asoka. Our robes are purple. They're not red. Yeah, all the color coding is really helpful. Do you think May's purple robe in her I'm going to sneak around and kill out of Jedi mode? Is that a nod to her?

Oh, interesting. Her culture. Could be. You know, there is a pretty ominous. Hey, kiddo, if I die, make sure you carry on our traditions moment during the ascension. Yeah. So it could be part of how May is honoring this history and honoring what at least she believes is her effort to do exactly that.

Yeah. It could be that she like me is a passionate believer that this is the year the Ravens will win the Lombardy trophy. Could be that. Yeah. That's possible. Okay. All right. Do you not think that's what it is?

No, for you, I will choose to believe this whole episode is dedicated to the Ravens. Okay. Thanks, pal. We get a lot of other stuff between Coral and Anasea who have different ideas of how to raise these children. Yeah. A lot of these themes will come back more, so we'll talk about them later. But the twins are not normal children is a big moment that happens here. Yeah.

And then we get into this forced lesson. And by force lesson, I of course, need a thread lesson with Mother Anasea. Again, this is like one of those moments where they just let Jody Turner Smith cook. Wonderful. Like hypnotic and mesmerizing. Steve will you hit us with this clip. All living things are connected by the same thread. A thread woven through all of existence.

Some call it a force. It's a nice thing to use it. But we know the thread is not a power. You wield. Pull the thread. Change everything. It ties you to your destiny. It binds you to others.

Ballard Rubin, as you mentioned, I love witch stuff. You love a witch. You hate a crevice, but you love a witch. I love threads and fate and destiny. So we have course up to talk for a second about the fact that when we covered Asoka, we were noting every single time, House Hoddy or one of the Knights Sisters or Morgan were mentioning threads and fate. The threads of fate. Fate has decided our next move.

What thread is she spinning? It was a loose thread, they say, about something they couldn't see coming. The threat of fate has spoken to us. The thread of destiny demands it. Right? It is a loose thread. It was a really fun one. It was a really, really fun one.

So, like, that's, obviously they were like a reference to the fates and we talked a lot about the mythology around that. But I think it's no coincidence that we're talking about. magic and the force in similar language across these different witchy covens. Yeah, which I love. The tie to the covens. Yeah. Because even though, again, these are not the Knights Sisters, that is another interesting, we don't have enough information about this coven to really make a call, but the question of like, well, what is darkness? Magic. When you're really, you're magic and tapping into some sort of dark power. Yeah. Then the way that other force users or other pockets of society think of you as a

threat. Right. Unnatural. So that's fascinating. And that, I mean, it just feels very intentional. Could have been enforced by any other name here. But the fact that we got the thread language is intended to make us think of this. As Ben pointed out and I have to agree, when Mother Ana Saya says, we know the thread is not a power you wield. But then they go on to talk about power a lot in this episode. And it's just a little like, I think that it has to be intentional. it's not, they're not sloppy writers here on this show. So I think it's just like, Mother Anisea, who I really like and I would absolutely join her Coven in a minute. Yeah, of course.

She's incredible. Is perhaps a bit hypocritical or slightly deceptive in the way that she talks about. You know, when she says later, no weapons, no violence, and then takes over the mind of Torben, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I like, it's maybe too soon to say whether that's just like not a person. perfectly executed line or whether that's almost intentional hypocrisy, because that's another interesting parallel. If this group of characters looks at the Jedi and say, what gives you

the right, X, Y, and Z, your relationship to the force, the way you think about who else can use it or tap into it or even what it is inherently. Like, I thought the, obviously everything about the thread and destiny, because destiny is the name of the episode, there are a number of other lines about destiny that we'll talk about as we go. Certainly that's the thrust of this, but I thought the claim to use it language was as notable because the idea that the force is something you can tap into or channel versus the idea that it's a great tapestry that you are stitched into. And pull the thread, which I don't feel like I have a full grasp on what is meant by that. It's used again later in another beautiful moment.

moment. I don't think we have a clear comp for that. It's not the same as use the force loop. Like, it's not the same thing. So I would love to learn more. If they want to just do a full, like, short spinoff on social media. Webisode? Yeah. We're still doing web episodes, right? Like a quibby, maybe? Mother and Sam, like, I would go watch them all. But I think that what we want to talk about is this idea of the power of two, the power of many. Yeah. Right.

We could talk about dyads again if you want to, of course. Hard not to. But this idea of combining power amongst Jedi, and please tell me if I'm wrong about this, like is not something we've seen a lot of. There's a few examples. There's like season two, episode three of Clone Wars. We've got, and we talked about this, I think, leading up to the Asoka podcast. We've got Yoda and Obi-1 and Mace and Anakin are like meditating to

find the force, like they are meditating sort of together. That feels like a combination of of force power. But overall, this idea of like combining power is much more of a Sith concept, at least in the legends, than it is a Jedi concept. Do you agree or disagree about that? Interesting. Yeah. I think that inside of the Jedi across the canon, it can be all of the above. but, and I think that could be, it could be all of the above one or the other in a given moment and with a given character set

for either the Sith or the Jedi because like, you know, we talk about the rule of two a lot, right? With the Sith. A dyad is like, two beings who become one force being. What is the master and apprentice relationship? Now, that's not the same as rule of two,

but... Yeah, but it's never like, Quagon's never like, Obi-one, join my hands with me, and we will, you know, Use the force stronger together. Exactly. And this is what I think is interesting about it.

It's like the Jedi, it's a wide vast, especially in the stretch of the canon, collective. You have temples everywhere. You have these groups of people. Local temples? It always goes completely fine for the younglings who are assembled at a given locale. But then there is this, the defining relationship in your life is going to be with this one other person. And so I think like all of those things are true at once. it was hard not to think about on the power of many front.

We have not seen this yet. We have no idea how this will come into play in the season. And trailers can often be deceptive. But the shot of all the lightsabers activating at once, that feels like, oh, power of many. You were asking last week when Sol and May were fighting. You asked a couple things. Why doesn't everybody just kick dirt up into somebody else's face?

But also, like, do you think you're... One of your questions was, do you think you're pulled the blade? Yeah. And, like, does that, is that something that's kind of priming us for the idea of, like, let's work together and happen to some larger force? So I think that's interesting, but I was also struck by, and this might be an inaccurate over-reading of the scene, wouldn't be the first time. But in the stretch where the power of two stretch, where Mother Anasea is first, like,

it's a little bit of tutelage for the youngsters, right? And Mother Anesea is first facing off against one. one other person and then against two, right? And there seemed to be a little bit of a like, there's a pushing gesture. And then there was against two, like, kind of like a pulling and then a holding, like a harnessing. Like she had actually, it seemed to me like they were implying that there was an ability to actually harness more power. Yeah. Right? With more people. Like literally. Like you hold more power in your hands. And obviously. Greater than the sum of their parts. Yeah. And obviously that's happening then later in the Ascension as well where there's, I'm not a

an astrologist nor an astronomer. I don't really, I just don't really, I just, it's a lot of things I'm not. Star stuff? Sure. But it almost looked like the two moons were like in an eclipse state, right? That they were aligning. Two as one, an alignment, and a pulling, a channeling of that power from two as one that is then ported. Yes.

and the blue and the red of the moon being pulled down into this purple-tinged power. It is a power. It sure is. And what happens when you combine a light cider saber and a dark cider saber, you get your blue and your reds. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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with a hundred-bound hour tropical tasting power. Ignite your taste, start your engine, shift your flavor to high gear with new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. Okay, so we had the public thread force tutoring, and we get private tutoring. Yeah.

This is the benefit of your mom being in charge of the cutout. And you get private thread tutoring. We love prep. So this is where we get the line where it says when their mother tells them that the thread tied them together since before they were born. This is the most Diyad,

forced Diyad talk that we've heard so far, I think, right? Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's difficult not to think. Okay. Force Diyad. Let me hit you with a palpatine. Let me hit you with a palpatine quote. Please.

Legends claim that two being shared this profound connection gain access to a great number of ability skills beyond the grasp of even the most powerful force wielders. That's a good palpi. Thanks. Well.

Great palpi. Love that palpi. What about mother, Anesia's saying that the Ascension is going to require they walk through fear? Yeah, some like litany against fear or dune energy, you know? Jedi trial of courage energy. We love that. Yeah. That's interesting, too, with the Ascension and the trials, like thinking about similarities and differences between like a different ritual in a different group and how they relate to the force and think about what it means to, like, graduate to a different level of.

readiness or connectivity to that. This was this was a fascinating stretch because I think that like idea of being tied together, the fear, all of it, there's a lot of like guidance and nurturing, but also then like, here, let me literally put your hands together. Right. Don't let go. Yeah. And like you're going to have to give up a part of yourself for the greater whole. There's so much. And again, this is the, there's something that I like about this episode, this inherent contradiction inside of NSAA where she will be so like, yeah, as you say, nurturing and support. And but also like, but OSHA you're going to do this, right? OSHA is like literally trembling as she walks up to the ascension ceremony and none of those

would just seem to care at all. No, everybody has compelled her to do the thing that she clearly doesn't want to do. And I thought even the like you think you want something different to life in this coven, but that is because you were young. The galaxy is not a place to welcome's women like us was another instance of, it's a duality at play there. Because I think the first part of that just because you're young. You know, that's again like that kind of like marigold and norie a hearfoot idea, right? Nobody goes off the trail.

But there's this like, you can't fast forward those formative years in your life when you discover things for yourself. Yeah. Right. And that's not a bad thing to want. And so trying to say like, well, it's just because you don't know. It's like, well, right, go find out. That's part of what it means to be a person and, like, go on your own journey of discovery. But then you get to the second part of that.

And you see that that comes from a nurturing and protective instinct. And so it feels like the thing that is driving that is well-intentioned. Yeah. We are in exile. We've been persecuted. Yeah, yeah. Don't leave the fortress because somebody might be waiting right around the tree bend to take you away from us. But then if it manifests ultimately in you feeling like you can't live your own life.

Yeah. It's real King Triton people on land eat fish so you can't go up there, Ariel. She's like, well, what if I have legs, though? Another part of the Ascension ceremony is to sacrifice a part of themselves, which is like a very sort of like, again, this very sort of like socialist force user idea. There's a council of 12 here. It is, you know, we are in a share power coven. But Mother Anna Sia does get final word. She's like, everyone's share power, but also I'm the final word on everything.

Great stuff. Because I cooked us up some midi-chlorian special twins. Is the specialness of these twins why the Sith are so interested in May or in May and OSHA? Because there is this like outside of the movies doctrine of the dyad is this Sith lore, long promised, carved into the wall of the Sith Citadel and Exigal. I know you're so excited to talk about Exigal again. Always. You're like, take me back to Exigal, always. But, like, in canon, Darth Plague has tried to create a dyad with Citi.

Citi has tried to create one with Vader. And that failed attempt is how we got Kylo and Ray. So, like, the dyad is something that the Sith had been after for a very long time. And I'm wondering, this is something that a friend of the pod, Dave Gonzalez and I were talking about recently, which is like, Mando was bogged. The Madoorian in, like, season two and three is bogged down so much by trying to, like, explain the cloning Palpatine plot. Yeah. Is this, is a mandate of this show make us feel more comfy with the concept of the dyad? What do you think?

Anytime we can talk about the Sith Eternal and Eggigal, we have to do it. I think that it is, again, like impossible not to be thinking about these things when you're in the stretch of the episode. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding all because someone would consider our power dark. Unnatural. I mean, of course, this makes us think of Palpatine. it makes us think of Anacin, it makes us think of Revenge of the Sith before we get to somehow Palpatine return and rise with Skywalker. The great, you know, the great seduction sequence, he could use the force to influence

the midichlorians to create life. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural. And then you go back to like, okay, how are the characters in this episode they act like talking about this other than the word, the very deliberate utterance of the word unnatural? We were on the brink of extinction, and then we were blessed with the miracle, the gift of life. So there's a sequence with Coral and Anna S.A. I talked about like, I carried them. I created them. Which is very active, right? Like a first person way of talking about this. This, we were blessed with a miracle. The gift of life makes it sound like something that they have received. That there is another presence. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, right? Made a deal with a devil for?

Yeah. This question of like using the word unnatural to me. make us think of that Palpatine speech in the association with potentially using the Middiclorians to create life, was Mother Anasea guided in some respect? Was this something that they knew they wanted to do? And then they had to seek some sort of like assistance or boon. If they have in fact succeeded in creating a forced diet in some capacity, then is this something that the Sith and the Jedi would be seeking either? to use or to eliminate. Like, you could look at that from any different perspective.

All of that. What the thread has tied together, no one can separate. And so what if somebody needs to or thinks they need to because what that thread represents when it is intact is too dangerous. Yeah, yeah. This idea of separation, I think, is a good one to transition into this email. We got from Sarah. and I really love this email because I did hear the car. I really love the car.

Yeah, the call coming through the in studio was really. That was good. What Sarah is underlining here is this idea, you know, we're talking about like, okay, we're reminded of Vanekin, we're reminded of Quaghan, we're reminded of twins we've seen before in Star Wars, all this sort of stuff. She's underlining here how intentional that might be. So she says, Sarah writes, even though Yoda is not mentioned at all in the show, instances or phrases always make me think of Yoda's scenes. Saul and OSHA's conversation about grief made me think of Yoda in Anniken in episode 3 when

Yoda talks to Anakin about his dreams. Saul's conversation talks about grief naming that emotion for OSHA, whereas Yoda says to not to mourn or miss those who return to the force. Quote, learn to let go of all that you fear to lose. The other thing that keeps popping into my mind is Yoda's decision to separate Lucas and Leah. Yoda says that they need to split them up to hide them from the emperor. It makes you wonder if there's something special about twins born to the force and what power

that unlocks. Force dyads is a term that's been thrown around a lot, but I know Luke and Leah weren't forced diads as both don't have the healing powers like Ray and Kylo. It's small, but why was Yoda so insistent on keeping the twins separated to hide them from the gays of the emperor? Maybe it goes beyond having two powerful forces together, which would tip off Sidious. Maybe it's a power he's seeking. Also to address if OSHA and May's conception cheapens Anacens,

it reminds us of the, quote, potential chosen one trope that is in so many stories like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Dune, and even the Bible. Perhaps O'Sha and May are the reason the Jedi Council in the prequels is so afraid and wary of Anacan's power. Maybe this instance sparks the chosen one prophecy and also pointed to as an example when deciding not to take older children to begin training. So it's not just like, as we were talking about, oh, them saying OSHA is too old, makes us think of Anakin. Maybe that's the reason why they were so scared of taking Anakin is because of someone like OSHA. That last part is pretty compelling to me. Yeah, it is.

Because as you know, I actually bumped on that a little bit in the premiere. Like, okay, another. But if that is an example of the kind of active connection that I would find pretty rich and interesting. You know, we should say like the chosen one. prophecy dates back. Definitely. Back, back, back, back, back. And so that's just like, the specific language, there's obviously like a long explanation in legends, but in canon, in New Canon, the specific language includes born of no father. Right. Right. And so the idea that they would be, or one of them or both, like, is it a threat? Are you a candidate? Right.

Who sees you as a threat? Who sees you as a candidate? That is like really interesting and fascinating. Very Neville Longbottom, right? Yeah. My sweet Neville. Yeah. Yeah. Who does that make Nagini in this situation then? But the, like...

I'm scared to tell you. The phantom menace, shmi, line. There was no father. I carried him. I gave birth. I raised him. I know I'm jumping forward a little bit, but obviously I think it connects to what is being raised in this email. I can't explain what happened.

The comics, Darth Vader number 25. That stretch where we see Palpatine, it's like absolutely horrific, right? Like arms around shmee. This seems to like, we get the, there was no father, we get the unnatural, we get the chosen one as our little verbs.

And it seemed to be can in confirmation that Palpatine had used the force to use the midilorians, to create Bidiclorian Jesus. Yes. Matt Martin from Lucasfilm was very active on Twitter saying that that was not the case

and encouraging people to keep in mind that that is, we're in Anakin's head when we're reading those panels. Are you saying it's from a certain point of view? Which, again, feels like very thematically interesting. So I, like, when I read that comic, I think a lot of Star Wars fans throughout that comic were like, we got it, it's canon.

That's what happened. And maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. And the fact that we still don't know that and now we have other characters who are interesting, like, pathways into assessing that is pretty interesting to me. I'm intrigued by this part of it and this connection. I really like this idea. I mean, like, whether or not it applies to the Luke and Leah, but I think that's interesting, this idea of like, let's keep forced twin separate. Let's be wary of children born of no father who are a little too old to join the order. We've been here before.

Whether or not Yoda actually enters the fray, which you and I both agree we do not want. it is hopefully this story survives the people who are in this show somehow. Somehow. Somehow. Somehow. Somehow Palpatine returned and somehow someone remembers every lesson here on allowed Palpatine to rise. Yeah.

And, you know, Dena and sorry to get and forgot about the iron froze. Things happen. Okay, listen. We're going to skip to the Ascension. And here's what I have to say. And I'm going to say it down on the camera. It's the Ascension baby. And it fucks.

It rules. This is one point on which Benjamin Lindbergh and I wildly disagree because he thought this was dumb and hokey. And I think these cool witches in their hot velvet outfits swaying and singing, there's a musical number. There is a musical number. And there is like magical threads being pulled from the very stars themselves. Yeah.

That's what I like. Yeah. This rules. Pulling down the magic from the, from the, uh, I love this. The moons was, was cool. I, yeah, I enjoyed parts of this. No, come to the light with me. The, like, Mother Honestaya kind of moving through the thing that was in the trailer.

That was, yeah. I was like, yeah. This is great. I, I'm, like, actually afraid to say this to you because I love you and I don't want to hurt you. But the musical number. Impart to a musical number, I was not totally. bothered you? No, it didn't bother me. I was just like, huh. What if I just like call you occasionally or leave you occasional voice memos that are like, the power of one, the power

two, the power of many? Is that, is that going to brighten your day? Yeah, I would love it. Yeah, I think I would love it. I would love it. Ben alluded to this in his recap, there are two mysterious robed figures. And some people are wondering if they're just like some Sith pals hanging out at the front of the congregation here. But you also see similarly robed figures in the back and they have long bows. So I really think these are just more like, we're not actively participating in the ceremony because we've got some like guarding, guard duty to do or whatever. I am disinclined to believe that those are two Sith standing at the front of the ceremony. I am absolutely not ruling out some sort of Sifth

manipulation either of the Coven or of the Jedi. Or why not both? Yeah, right. But I don't know that the hooded figures are necessarily... Right. Sith. As we think about how much the musical number rules and no one has any comments or concerns about it and how great it is, let's hear from Mother Anisea about this particular ceremony. Tonight we enact a ceremony we have not performed since our exile. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding, or because some would consider our power dark, unnatural. We were on the brink of extinction. And then we were blessed with a miracle. The gift of life.

Hey, Steve, can we ask you to, like, in the middle of our pod, just every couple sentences to start making that sound for us? Yeah, so we know we're doing great. Thank you, Steve. If you can incorporate that into your process, we'd, I think, appreciate it. I really am remiss that I mentioned the velvet. mentioned the dancing, I mentioned the musical number, and I forgot to mention the Zeno Warrior Princess Ullulations that also happened here. The close captioning said laughs manically, and I thought

that was the close captioning sort of like tipping their hand of like, this is an evil coven if they're laughing manically. But I'm like, that's just a jubilation. That's just a joyous yip. Listen. We have out of nothing created some twins, and now we're going to one of them against their will, imbue them with a power, that we have drawn down from the very stars themselves. You know, also, like, it's a lesson for us all because mere hours later, they are all mysteriously killed in a very powerful fire slash rock slide. So, how much I live in the moment while you can't? Because there's, like, the whole, like, they have to walk over, do the Jedi test, come back,

have a lot of different conversations. It's like, they've got, yeah, 24 hours to live. It's thereabouts. Yeah. Yeah. You can only have so many spice creams in that time. Listen, says you. Okay, so we get it, right?

The lesbians can't procreate without metachlorian IVF. And they did it. They made these twins. I don't know if it's important that we learn May and Oshah's full names, but I thought that they were really pretty, Mayo and Verosha. Yeah. And I like every time they call O'Shea Osi, I think that's very cute as well.

Well, you already mentioned that Mother Anna S.A. is like, when I die, protect the secrets in 24 hours. Protect the secrets of the coven. Here come the Jedi. What could go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? Slicing in. Like, we're back with DJ and the last Jedi. Love a slice. There was also that like mystia. Before we get the slicing here and then before we get, of course, the crackling explosion of the control room amid the very powerful fire leader, there was the moment early. Earlier in the episode. What's all that? What's all that? Is that like, is someone like a, yeah, running like a iOS update in the engine room? Like, what was that? So. Are there vats, the rats in the wall of the Red Keep?

It primes us like something feels amiss before this. So is that something the Jedi are doing? Is there a saboteur inside the coven? Oh, it's an inside job. Stay tuned for the next flashback. is what I would say when it comes to that. Here come all the Jedi, right? We had already seen Saul, but we get Indara, we get Torben, and we get Kalnaka,

and every single one of them has bangs. A friend of my texting me, he's like, next time I go get my hair cut, I'm and tell them I want the flashback Saul, and I'm like, it's a good look. It is. It looks great. It's very tall-sful. Yeah. Loved it.

We talked a lot about this already. Anything you want to, I will say, Indara, I love Karihan Moss, I love Trinity. I am a big fan. Indara, I'm not that into. And I think, especially when we think about whatever happened here, and we'll talk about our theories in a little bit, but like, whatever happened here, Torben's like, I got to go meditate for a decade about this. And Dara's like, I'm going to hang out at the bar with my house.

Kelmakka's like, I'm going to live off the grid forever. Sol's like, I'm going to dedicate myself to the teaching of. children. And Indara's like, whatever. Tell me about your IPA and your noodles. Exactly. Oh, you got some dinner in noodles? Okay.

I see like, and it did look delicious. So I, yeah. But she seems to have no-ish with what happened here. And if anybody hasn't listened to the Midnight Boys episode yet, obviously check that out. And Charles is officially planting his flag on. I don't like this theory. Yeah.

And it's not my theory either, though. I do think obviously something, the Jedi did something very wrong here. that's clear. I don't think that Indara is going to be the SIF, the stranger, the he, the person we keep hearing about under the helmet and the premiere. But I do think whether it is just a misreading of the Jedi mission, some sort of power, media. She's their leader in this, right? Like, you know, Saul is like seemingly second command. She's first command. Torbun's only a Padawan and Kalnaka's there for the vibes, it seems like, and to fix the motorcycles. We have to talk for a second before we get back to what Indara voices about, like, the Jedi might

is right presence here, which is, I was, I think, was horrifying and we were meant to think was horrifying. Yes. Just for a second, we must like luxuriate in the levity of, okay, there's like, I love to luxuriate in the levity. I love to luxuriate in the levity. I know we've got some notes on, okay, hide the children. They're here to steal our children, hide the children,

and then the children are just, like, loudly conversing while I'm hiding. Oh, shut. Shut. I know that that did not say well with you. Bothered me. But. And then Narx on May, too. Yeah, like, would your sister come down?

Yeah, May. You definitely don't want to do this. We do get the little, like, nod from Mother Anasaya. But the moment where Coral says, Coral, you know, doing her best. There are no kids here. Like, we all know there are kids here. kids. There are no kids here. And the Jenner's like, we didn't know there was anyone

here. And she's like, there are no kids here. We're all telling the truth together. And then Kalnaka loudly roars and the subtitling says sniffs. Yeah. Like, this is just so funny to me. Anyway, I'm luxuriting in that levity. Thank you so much for letting it. Thanks for sharing it. Indara. Indara. Okay. So

the wild, yeah, like, oh, sorry we just happened upon your secret fortress. We thought this was an uninhabited planet. Obviously, horseshit. Everybody knows it's horseshit. We think you have children here because Sol was snooping around the tree line. Which, and like they out themselves because Soul later in the scene would be like, she, that kid didn't have that tattoo before when I was spying on them in the woods. But yeah, in Darryly tormented, beautiful creatures. This is something forbidden by Republic law. Yes. And Anasaya very reasonably points out, we're not in the Republic.

So what's your jurisdiction here? You break into their home. Slicing the platform. You slice your way. Has someone made it easier for you to do that? Maybe. But you've done that. You state that it is your right

to be able to test these children. Obviously, this opens up some interesting thinking we have a lot to noodle and always with what it means for a youngling to be taken away from their family to make their way into the order. You gain something, this is this new life and opportunity, but you leave something behind.

Like, Anakin, a character who grew up with a family, and now we have these other characters who are older at this point. Okay, well, like, why would the Jedi, why would you not be able to ever see your family? Why would you not be able to maintain that attachment? Well, here's a character like Anakin Skywalker who had to go back and slunk him in a mass slaughter. The women and the children. And the children. So, but like to see it, to see them go in and say, like, their arse was really disturbing. Yeah.

really, really disturbing. And this question of, like, again, the kind of gatekeeping of power that you were raising last week and how that plays here, but also just, like, who is entitled to what? And so we think about this, like, on a say a line about power, which we'll talk about. Yeah. But, and then it's all connected, right? We're entitled to, it makes me think a little bit of Allison and Reneira in the great eye for an eye fight in season one. Like, even that you feel entitled, right? Like this question of like, well, what is the limit on what you think is yours? And it goes back to our very first moments with Indara and also her very last moments on Earth when she says, who trained you? And then I have an unidentified force user. So of all the Jedi

that we see here, Indara is the hardliner, which is like part of why I really do not think that with love and respect to Charles, he's a great, smart, wonderful critic, but this theory corner I cannot join him on. Um, Sol says the Jedi do not take children, which is, is deeply untrue. I mean, it's just, it's just not accurate. It's just untrue. I love soul, but that is just simply not the case. And then just like plunks his saber into the hand of a child. Also, not great. I like the moment of playing on our anxiety there when he reaches for it. Like, oh, are we about to resort to violence? No, it's something very innocent. I'm just going to put this. I'm just going to hand this weapon to a child to try to lower her. Yeah, this just is just a horrible weapon.

Yeah, exactly. from a most civilized age. So listen, mistakes remain on all side because Mother Anasea then takes over Torbun's mind and we're going to come back to this. This was a tough one. But were you thinking about Sabine in Rebels being taken over by the Knight Sisters?

Sure, yeah. And of course, also like the changing of the eyeball that we saw in the dream state. For May. For May. And the premiere that I think really exacerbates the question of was somebody like we talked about last pod. planting that vision for OSHA.

Intentionally, we came down on the yes corner, I think, seeing this year. And is that a hint? Even more certain. Yeah, right. Is that a hint of who might be doing it? And that feels like just apparent now, right? Like that somebody's doing that. But that question of like, okay, this was almost watching this happen to Torbin,

returned to his right mind. It was almost, but he also was like kind of gasping and pain. It was this like Imperial Crucio combo play there. And so I think it is right and reasonable for us to be discussing like, well, is it fair that they were persecuted and forced into exile because other people think their powers are dark when like maybe X, Y, and Z points to otherwise? And then you see something like this and you're like, this is like a vile thing. Right. It is. So it's just like, again, to the point, it's like constantly teetering back and forth, I think.

The Witches Council happens. We have that whole like carried and crucially. created a line that we talked about. The girls will take the test. They're supposed to throw the test. Yeah. The girls just have the same fight again and again about who wants to stay and who wants to leave.

We don't need to go into it too much. What do you want to say about the Jedi test? And how do you feel about young Padua and Torbin just... Stealing the blood? I never like it when the Jedi do this. Just jabbing someone. I never like it with the Jedi. I do this.

This is standard Jedi procedure to take the blood and test it. Quigon move. Well, no, but Quigon's way worse because he's like, let me just clean your wound for you. Oh, what am I doing? I'm just checking your blood. Like, I rewatch that Quigon scene. And I was like, that was so dicey, dude. So at least Torbun's like, this is what I'm doing.

But I'm just saying, say that before the jab, not like mid or post jab. That's my note for young Padawan Torbin there. Yeah, it's all a little fucked up. I think any time you're taking the blood of a child to test and screen it to decide if they're worthy of your tutelage without telling them what you're doing when also they're only there in the first place after you basically like manipulated their coven and family into feeling like they had no choice but to grant this. Jedi not looking great in this episode so far. It's an interesting one. You know, again, this larger question of the grayness at play. Because we have this like, is it light?

Is it dark? Is everyone gray in this story? And I think the dyad and like good or evil twin trope is also connected to that, right? Because there's a version of this. And it's the one we've on the surface, at least, seen so far where it's like, OSHA's the good twin, May's the evil twin. But we don't, that's not what we, that's not what we believe is. And we've already seen nuanced behavior in that when, when May puts, like, walks out of the noodle bar. Exactly. You know. That's like almost feels like the expectation that we are going to then subvert. Subvert. Yeah. So. Because we're talking a lot about diads. The other thing that was pinging for me in this episode with all the like, you know, we're one, born a stool. No, no, say it the right way. You just, I'm going to leave the word to sing to me. The power to the power of many. Yeah, you already love the song. You love it. It is growing up. Yeah. A bit of an earworm. I was thinking a little bit of the ones, the mortis gods. And like this idea of a very powerful force family where you have the daughter. associated with the light side, the sun associated with the dark side, and the father's as balance, and like, whether certain characters would, whether it's true or not, think that that's

what was happening here, or whether inside of a dyad, that is part of how you achieve balance, is if that actually is happening, and then part of what will disrupt or upend how this dyad functions, is that flipping or morphing or not ending up being such a like a clean and tidy divide? There is so much that I hate about the Rises Skywalker. But something that I really like is when we get that vision of like dark ray, right? And when we get Kylo Ren as like Ben Solo. So that idea of like pulling towards the dark, pulling towards the light, and is the purpose of the diet to find some balance in the middle. Right. Right. We get the testing of OSHA straight out of Fan of Menace, same prop, you know, that the Jedi Council uses. I have a note on this. Okay. Now, the actual

things that Anakin and we're not, okay, so crucially, we're not in there with May. Right. Right. We know we can mean that May successfully failed the test, but we're not in. there with me. May knows how to follow orders from her mom. OSHA. We're in there with OSHA, so we see the test. And I just think this reminds me of like when I used to go back in the day

when I actually did go to the eye doctor many moons ago. And I would just be like, you know, I just can memorize the bottom line and then every time they test the, like I just know what the letters are. You used to cheat your eye tests? Maybe. Maybe not. But my point is like, if you're a kid in a situation, Should I, you just go when you'd be like, ship. You're like probably going to be right.

Speeder, ship. You know, if you just throw up. Other ship. And I think some kind of cat. It's like a sweet little old cat. I think part of what we're able to read from soul there is that he, there is that he, there is some moment where you're like, does he just want her to be failing on purpose? Or can he actually tell? Like, what can you sense through the force? Oh, I feel like he can tell.

I think so, too. And that's another thing, by the way. this connection between them joined by the thread, the dyad theorizing, one thing that I am struggling with a little bit here is accepting. This episode made it even harder for me to accept that they would not know the other was alive in terms of their connection, which, here's how I then work through that,

to me just further cements the fact that somebody is manipulating this. And maybe that means there's an active block from another party on their connection. Like Indara blocked her force chi? I love this. So what did you make of Sol pulling OSHA aside during the test to share his history?

This was such a major moment for me. Steve, can we hear our guy, Sol? I was younger than you are. When the Jedi tested me, I was only four. Really? Yes. But I knew. I was different from my family.

The Jedi saw how special I was. And I can see that in you, Oshah. I was very scared to leave my family. But when I joined the Jedi, I found out there were many other children like me. There are other children there? Thousands like us. But you must have the courage.

to say what you want. So this was already on my list as like really key moment of the episode. And then the men and I boys were also talking about how it felt so key to them. But I had already written my notes like that every time someone tells a story of being taken by the Jedi, it sounds harrowing. Like we've seen some slightly nicer versions like Asoka, stuff like that. But it reminded me so much of that scene in Obi-Wan episode three when Obi-Wan is talking to Leah. and she's like, are you my real father? And he's like, I wish that I could say that I was, but no, I'm not.

And she says, sometimes I try to imagine what he was like. And Obi-1 goes, I know that feeling. As Jedi were taken from our families when we're very young, I still have glimpses, flashes, really. My mother's shawl. My father's hands. I remember a baby. A baby? Yes, I think I had a brother.

To be one, can only he exists? So sad. Really don't remember him. I wish I did. joined the Jedi and I got a new family just like you. No problem. Who cares? And then everything was fine. Nothing went wrong. I had a new brother in Anakin. You were my brother. And that was fine. I never screamed. You were my brother. As I watched someone else melt in there. And I definitely didn't have like flashes to the my original brother. Anyway,

Obi-Wan like sort of consummate company man. Yeah. Like also has this like harrowing origin story. So it's just like, you know, Saul is telling the story like this is a good thing. You're going to find a family. There are other children out there. You don't have. have to be stuck with your codependent twin is your only playmate. Like, there's other options. Yeah. But, you know, like, he was afraid. He was scared to leave his family because he was four. And again, that idea that you have to leave them behind, not just for a change in a new adventure, but forever, like the finality of it. And of course, this connects to this attachment through line. And that was one of the things I really loved about. I mean, this was a fascinating episode

to play on our instant, our attachment to Saul. Because like, what does he know? When did he know it? Yeah, we're just in like a, oh my God, Jedi. We have some notes. Headspace about this entire episode. But the tenderness on display from him here is just so winning and the charisma is so warm. And that idea, but you must have the courage to say what you want.

Yeah. Is in a very, I think, interesting and satisfying way, quite contrary to a little. lot of the lessons that the Jedi try to enforce on each other, right? It's about selflessness. It's not about you. It's not about what you want, right? It's about this other thing, this grander mission that we have. And so for Soul to be a character who not only voices that aloud and thinks that about himself, but is that as part of the lesson that he wants to impart to the person in his charge, felt very, very, very, very notable to me. I totally agree. We got an email from listener Jack

who there's a it's a it's a it's a theory I don't necessarily agree with but I think it leads to somewhere interesting. Where Jack was wondering about the May and Soul fight in episode two

and how May does not do the whole like you know we have unfinished business fight me with all of your strength line and when she throws the knives they go at Saul's feet did she throw a warning sort of shot on purpose or did he pull them down into the sand? We could debate that.

But is Saul actually her target here? And we can talk about this, you know, in just a second when Saul is looking for May and OSHA. And I believe that that's true. Yeah. But like, is he on her list? We know that four Jedi are on her list. Right. But she never says Saul.

Right. O'Sha is the one who's like, obviously you're on the list. Yeah. So is it someone else on the list? Is it Vern? This is not Jack's series. This is my theory. Is it Vern on the list?

Because she's part of the cover up. Like, is that true? Is the idea of killing, this Jack's theory is the idea of killing a Jedi without a weapon, not about doing it with a force, but about seducing them to the dark side? And Jack cites the times that Vader says, I killed Anakin Skywalker. Right. Right. Like by seducing him to, you know, becoming a dark side. And this connects to the kill.

the dream. Yeah, kill the dream sort of like, is Saul going to be seduced in the dark side?

I don't see that as a future for Saul, but I am worried always about Saul. And I'm

worried that if he dies, um, it might be OSHA who does it. Yeah. If OSHA finds out more likely to me

more about what happened. Yes. In the fire. Yeah, that feels more likely and I think would also fit

the kill the dream idea, certainly. For both of those characters, for all of those characters. The idea of the Vader-Aniken, that's how you could kill without a weapon, saw the dark side. It's intriguing to me, but I don't see it going that way, but I think it's maybe more than I don't want it to, if I'm being honest, because I just feel that, you know, could it be done well, I'm sure.

Could it be done tragically and poignantly? Certainly. Another character in Star Wars who, the thing we know most to be true about them is like you're a poster boy for attachment. Yeah. And then you fall to the dark side again. I think I would actually really dislike that. I really hope that's not what happens. I don't mind like his attachment and his tenderness and like OSHA being his like Achilles heel being his.

being his like downfall, being the thing that stays his hand when he needs to win a fight, that makes sense to me, but you're right. Like, we don't necessarily need to do exactly that story anymore. I also, we'll see. We've gotten, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, buntil leaf keeps coming up.

We've seen it in tree form. We've seen it in absolution form. Is the, is, like, a theory about what happened to the witches that I've seen going around is like, you know, we know that they have stores of buntilief, they use it to like hunt, did the Buntil supply go up in smoke and they inhaled it and died

in a sort of like Jones Town poison thing. Perhaps the checkoff thing that I am more closely tracking and we already mentioned this in our breakdown of one and two is when Chimeres mentions the Jedi memory wipe. Don't wind my memory, whatever you do. And we're dealing with what does OSHA know or remember what does May know or remember?

Like, who has holes in their memory about that evening? And even like when OSHA wakes up. Yes. On the ship, she's like, what happened? Maybe it's just a state of disorientation. Smoke inhalation. But, yeah, I do not, I'm not, I'm not subscribing to the Bonta cloud. Yeah.

Theory, I don't know how quickly Bonta gas dissipates from a room, but they, so I do. do walk through there, so I don't know if that holds. I'm mostly basing that off of the moment where O'Sha is escaping through the tunnel and, like, looks up through the grate. It's a flash. There's a shake. Like the fortress shakes. We hear them all scream.

And then they're dead and they're surrounded by like some pieces of fallen rock. It just seems like someone used the force to kill them all or to sabotage. the structure in a way that they all plummeted to their deaths or something. So it feels like Buntu would almost, I mean, maybe someone activates that, but that almost feels more passive. I think this is like, we are meant to believe that there was an active attack on this group of people. Okay. Whether that's because of control, like is Torbin still in his mind state? And that's part of why he's living in such a state of regret. Maybe it could be something like that. But it definitely seems like they, someone did something to those people. Wasn't just the fire.

I'm going to skip past like, honestly as conversation with OSHA about destiny. Pull the thread, change everything. Yeah, we've already like talked to some of these, about these concepts already. May takes this like quick leap to murder, and as we've already discussed, we're like a bit concerned that May,

despite the fact that her eyeballs are not all blacked out, it feels like she's being, especially the look she gives the fire. Yeah. She looks like she's under some sort of spell. Yeah, there was definitely something like the way the camera lingered on her staring at the fleeing. And it made you think, oh, is she under an influence of some sort of.

And then later, when we encounter her again at the bridge, she's sort of like walking, like slowly and grogly. Yeah, and she's like, she's dead. There's like, no urgency of like, holy shit, it's a, everything's up in flame. She just seems like really out of it. Yeah, it just feels like we don't have all the information. Something else is happening. Other characters. Again, like, how was Sol there so quickly?

Clearly, because of the Torben injury that we glimpsed later, like everyone was there. why were they there? Also just like before the staring at the flames trance, the discovery of the notebook that OSHA was drawing in earlier and what do we see in there? We see the Jedi crest. And so there's a little bit of a question of like, is that just meant to show us to reinforce?

Yeah, I do want to be a Jedi. I do want to go live this life. This is what I want for myself. And I've been doodling in my notebook like kids do when they're thinking about like the thing they want. Is there some other like, again, you kind of like planting? desires, ambitions, visions, dreams, aspirations that they're being put on these paths by other

characters. Here's my current best theory about what happened here. Okay. Coral, as we know, is like pretty much team, let's just kill these Jedi. Anasea seems pretty anti that idea. But we should note that. Happy to take over our mind. Anasea is in a different spot.

Yes. than the rest of the coming. Yes, her body is discovered separately as they're making their way through. Right. This is a light spoiler for like official material that Lucasfilm has released, like basically trailer material. So if people don't want to, if you don't want to hear that, skip ahead. But there is footage from a trailer of, I don't think it's Torb and I think it's Kelnaca. seems to be like going ham with his lightsaber and both Saul and Torr and it really seems to strike down on Torbin.

Right. And it seems like that's how Torbens got his eyes. Yeah. That's how Torben got his car. So like that if they take over the mind of Kalnaka, it reminds me a lot of like Loki manipulating the Hulk in Avengers and unleash this wookie Jedi on his cohorts in the idea of like, oh, well, then we won't be blamed for the death if they, you know, kill each other. But I like this idea, what if, again, wildly theorizing, because of the power of one, the power of two, the power of many, maybe it took a whole group of them to take over the wookie.

And in order to break that control, Indara, probably, Indara, let's be real. Like, to break that connection, that's the flashbang that, you know, kills all these women at one. So you were harming our friend. You were harming and controlling our colleague and our pal. So we had to act to stop it. We thought we were doing the right thing. Right. And it went badly wrong.

We thought we were doing the right thing just being there in the first place. Right. So that was what I was going to ask. It's like I like that for accounting for in the moment what is happening in this kind of actively confounding fire sequence. Where it's like, how does the fire spread this quickly? Is somebody manipulating and empowering it? How is it melting and crumbling stone? This is where the fact that we have that like control room glitch earlier makes it seem like

the facility is being like primed to collapse. Why are they on Brendok in the first place? Is it just because they're tracking force sensitives and they discovered them here and now they're here to recruit the kids? Yeah. Recruit the kids. But then again, this gets to the,

we're going to talk about this with Ben, but this gets to the Torben-May interaction. in episode two, there's simply no way to read it other than Torben knew she made it out of life. And so do they know that in the moment? Is there a discovery later? Why? Here's a related question.

Why is Sol, what is the hurry? Like, okay, he's rushing, excuse me, rushing OSHA out. I have another question about actually, let me ask this one first. Then I'll get back to the why the rush. Very quickly. Have to say it. Can't get through the pod without saying it. the characters have to start using the force.

They have to. Why can't Saul use the force to save both kids? And like that moment where he does grab her by the wrist in parallel to him using the force later, I would like to know why he can't use the force in that moment. Because if there's an answer, which is like some sort of block or control, okay. It seems like there's an answer because when he does use the force on her in episode one to save her from the cliff, it's a very much like a sort of like, oh, I did it write. this time. I was able to do it this time

and I couldn't do it the time before. And so if it's like that, okay, it's part of the mystery and all will be revealed, cool. If it's like, and Darrah just didn't stop the blade going toward her chest and Sol didn't catch both kids by using the force, that starts to feel like compromising at a certain point. So again, I'll reserve judgment until we know

more, but it's on my mind. In terms of why the rush, there's the like, all right, Sol picking her up and hurrying her out of the complex. I get it. It's collapsing all around them. Seems dangerous. That's not my question. He, like, rips her away from her mother. The haste of the farewell to your mother, like, you'd think you'd have a moment. But you really think you're in mortal peril.

Sure. I'll allow it. Why do they have to leave the planet so quickly? Yeah. They're already on the way to Khorisn. Something fucked up is going on there. Oh, yeah. Like, and how many of them know?

Like, does Sol even know the reason they had to go? He's like, we... O'Sha's like, let's go back. Yeah. She goes full Jack Shepherd. We have to go back. And he's like, we can't. No, we can't.

Why? What are they running from? I feel like I can connect the dots on so many things of what happened here. And to be clear, that mystery is all interesting. Yeah, I feel like I... But it does make this episode a little... No, I think I can slot all these things except for Saul. He's actually the real question mark for me because, like, he's running to save May and OSHA.

So was he not there when the flashbang happened? And then... And maybe he's like, I want to save both kids because that's what we're here to do is the guy to nurture these kids. and some of the other characters have this like, no, what we need to do is split up a dangerous diet. Right. We need to prevent the doctrine of the diet. I want to say both of you, right?

Yeah. And they're like, maybe they're like, no, we're just going to dump me by the Bonta tree, actually. Here's, like, Sol says that May started a fire and that it killed and then he's cut off. Yeah. Right. Significantly. It seems like he's telling the truth, right?

Like he, he seemed very upset on her behalf. have. Yeah. Like, is he lying or did they just not loops Saul into the bigger picture or was it really all that like straightforward? Like, it's more interesting to me ultimately if he is on a journey of discovery along with OSHA. Yeah.

If he also has to learn uncomfortable truths about the Jedi. That happened, right? Yeah. Which could then fuel that theory from the email a few minutes ago about a potential pull to the dark. Pull the dark side. If he loses, if his faith is shaken in the institution that he's devoted his life to. Here are things that Sol is.

said about this incident. Yeah. And Dar and I saved her from a terrible fire in Breaddocks. She saw us as our protectors. I mean, certainly true of Saul. I was there when her sister started a fire that killed her entire family. That doesn't seem true. Oh, she was a sole survivor. That's not true, but did Sol know that? I took her as my Padawan because he was like right away, you know? And then I wanted to save you both. And then she says, what happened that night wasn't your fault, Saul? I've told you that. And he's like, you did, and I've made my peace with what happened on Brenda. Definitely not. I know you have.

That was a lesson you tried to teach me many times except what I'd lost, and I wasn't a very good student. Perhaps I wasn't a very good teacher, and then this is the last bit. Look what revenge is done to your sister. I couldn't save her when you were children. Let me try now. So yeah, he's like, let's take both. And I'm just going to blame this all in Indara. And Darra's like, yeah.

Because like, Torbin's like, oh, my face wound. Khamlock is probably sedated, because he's not even there. They probably have him just like, it locked up somewhere. And then Indara's like, here's what we're going to do. And I'm going to get a cosine from Vern. I really, I have my eye on Vern. That all sounds right to me. I think then the question becomes who else is involved.

Yeah. Or is it just an attempt to thwart something by the Jedi? This again, like kind of been talking about this across many shows recently, like hubris of control idea. gone wrong. And then a cover-up that leads to this festering, corrosive guilt and shame

for some. Noodles for others. Noodles and ale for others. Let's just make that our goal for the summer. Noodles and ale at gmail.com. Anytime we're feeling crippled with guilt or shame or remorse

or anything about the amount of work we have to do, I'll just look at you and I'll be like noodles and beer. I love it. I love it. Noures and beer for some. Okay.

All right. Last thing I want to say, I mean, And again, looking for her sister in a way that does not feel like, I'll kill you, like, consistent with that version of May. Yeah. So we get that. But I just want to shout out, if he turns out to know more about what happened and is lying to everyone, I'll be very disappointed in Saul. But the noise he makes when she reaches out to hug him and he says, you will never feel like this again, I promise.

Heart wrenching. Devastation. How long was May on her own? when did helmet face swoop in? Is that where we're going with helmet face? Good old. So many questions.

I am excited. Good old silver tooth. Silver tooth? Yeah. The stranger. Venom mouth. Uneven episode, but one that I leave full of intrigue.

Yes, I want to know what happened. With a ton of questions in an exciting way. Not one that necessarily means this was a perfectly structured or executed episode. but I am as enticed as I was heading into the season, honestly, to learn what awaits. So I can't wait for next week. Can't wait for the back half of the season? We got five episodes left, and that doesn't sound like a lot.

But at the pace of which the episodes are moving, it feels like a good amount of time to give us some clarity here. I mean, some Star Wars shows are only six episodes. So if you think of it that way. From a certain point of view, we have a lot more to go. Let's go now to our chat. with Ben Lindbergh. Ben. Hello.

Ben, welcome to a video podcast. I know. Now that we're on video, do you think I could get some sort of blue hologram filter for me when I join you for these segments? We have the budget for that.

Only if you then like crop up on this table right here in the center of the table. I love that. Great idea. Guys, can we have that ready by next week? Thanks.

Yeah. Let's just get right on top of that. Thanks so much. Ben, this is not a very lore-heavy episode. No. But you had an idea of what you might be able to talk about that connects to what went down on Brandock. What do you want to talk about today? Yeah. If you're not listening or if you are listening, not watching, just picture me serenely sitting cross-legged in the air floating a few feet above because we're talking about the brash vow today. Your hair looks much better. Oh, thank you. Yeah. The brashvow takes a toll on your hairline as we saw with the progression. I know you're on wig watch.

We're going back to episode two here. This is when it was first mentioned in the show, the Brash Vow that Master Torben took and he was meditating silently for 10 plus years. Just a passing mention, the first mention we've seen on screen of the Brash Vow. But I thought it was worth going back to this week because we've had some new developments with Master Torbin or the future Master Torbin, who's still Paduan Torben. and I think maybe the lore behind the Brash Vow could clue us in, perhaps, to what's going on with these Jedi. What did they get up to when we weren't watching them? So I will tell you a little bit about the Brash Vow, which dates back just several years in the canon, and it was created by the writer, prolific Star Wars author Charles Sol.

And he actually posted about this on Instagram after the Ackleite episode, because he was delighted to see his creation on screen. I will read you his definition from Instagram. Not sure Instagram is considered canon, but this more or less matches up with what you'll find elsewhere. The vow is taken by Jedi who feel they have done something deeply wrong, particularly a misinterpretation of what they believe the force wanted them to do. And while they don't leave the order, they decide to sit and listen to the force

until they better understand themselves and what it's saying. So the first time this was mentioned in canon, comes from 2017 the Darth Vader comics run, which was written by soul. And this is the Darth Vader comic that picks up right after Revenge of the Sith. So he's still settling into the Sith and the suit. And one of his first tasks given to him by Darth Sidious is to go get a chiber crystal so that he can make a red blade because he can't use his old one. So the way that he's supposed to do that is to track down a Jedi and get their lights.

and then bleed the khyber crystal to turn it red. The only problem is they just killed most of the Jedi. So he's like, how am I going to find a Jedi to take a khyber crystal from them? And his solution is to look for a Jedi who was taking the barash vow when Order 66 struck. So this is like your phone is on airplane mode or something, basically. And then you land and you get a bunch of notifications. And in this case, the notifications like, oh, all my friends are dead. So that sucks.

But the reason he wanted to look for someone who had taken the barash vow is he's like, well, I'll take them by surprise because they don't know everyone's dead. They've been out of the loop. And so he goes to this droid that has a backup, a record of where all the Jedi were before Order 66. And Vader says, hey, send me a list. Any Jedi pursuing Barash has sworn to refrain from activities related to the order. Complete disengagement from anything but the force. It is a type of penance. While a barash taker would have felt the purge, they would not have allowed themselves to respond to it or take action of any kind.

So it's like a thousand voices cried out and you're like, eh. And I just continue to sit there. Yeah. Went about my day. Yeah. And the droid tells him that you're going to have to narrow it down a bit because there have been 14,000 Jedi who have taken the barash vow in the archives of the order. This is something that is not in the canon, but Charles Sorrell clarified on Instagram, again, which is this is named after a Jedi named Barash-Sylvain. But apparently people had been doing the Barash Vow for many years before that, and it just got named after her.

So this goes way back, and it also continued after Barash-Sylvain. So he shows up, Vader, and he finds this Jedi who's been hanging out, taking the Barash vow, and fights him and kills him and get It's the chiber crystal mission accomplished, et cetera. So that's the first time that this shows up in canon. The Jedi's name is Kirak infila. Then it shows up in the High Republic a few years later in another comic written by Charles Sol. And some people have asked me since the acolyte started, where do I start with the acolyte?

Like how do I get into this? Where should I start? And much like Obi-1 says, the jundlin waser not to be traveled lightly, the High Republic. Also, not to be traveled lightly either, as I discovered when I was prepping for the accolade and realized just how much time it would take. You need to basically barash vow to catch up with the High Republic. So you've got to have a lot of time on your hands to read all of it. But if you just want to dabble, if you want to dip in with something where you don't need to know what else is going on, there's a great four-part miniseries called The Blade,

written by Soul that ended last year. And this comic gives us the origin of the Brash vow and tells us about this Jedi named Porter Engel and another Jedi, Barash Sylvain, and what led to Barash taking this vow. This is hundreds of years even before the Acolyte. And so they went to a planet far from everything else, out of contact at the distant reaches of the Republic and their Jedi, their try. They're trying to settle a dispute. And Barash's great attribute as a Jedi was that she could listen to the Force and know what to do and know who was lying and who is telling the truth. But in this particular case, she allowed her own personal sympathies and biases to sway her from hearing the message of the Force. So she's settling this dispute and she sympathized with this monarch who told this story about a young family in trouble.

and a child in danger of being taken from her parents. And that's the origin story of Barash. And so she said, yeah, this sounds right. And she wasn't really listening to the force. And because of that, she made a mistake. She vouched for this fake story. She tells Porter Engel to engage, and there's this big battle and a lot of people die. And she feels very bad about it.

So after the battle, she says, this is my fault. I told you to escalate, to confront the mercenaries directly. I did that because I believed what Princess Saccatra told me, a story about a young family in trouble, child, and danger of being taken from her parents. I did not listen to the force. I listened to myself. My own history clouded my vision. I was certain and I was wrong. And now so many are dead.

And so she says, I cannot trust myself. I cannot allow you or any other Jedi to trust me, not until I know I am hearing the force clearly again. So she's not leaving the order. she's just disengaging. And Porter goes back to the council and tells them about this. And Yoda characterizes it as she's uncertain. She's lost her feel for the force, essentially. So that is usually what causes the Barash Bow. It's not just a minor mistake. It's not just oops I screwed up. Maybe I'll meditate and say some force our fathers to make up for this and do some penance. This is a serious mistake that calls into question everything you know about the force in your connection to the force. There's really only a handful of examples that we know. There's one other where a Jedi was essentially cut off from the force because of contact with the Drengear, the species of carnivorous plants also in the High Republic. And so to get back in touch with the force, he had to do the Barash Vow for a while. So it's sort of extreme circumstances. One of the only other

Jedi we know who took the Barash Vow, our boy, Obi-Wan Kenobi. On Tatu. On Tattoo. There's a brief mentioned in a book from a few years ago about the Skywalker's, Skywalker, a family at war that refers to him as a practitioner of the brash vow on Tatouin. So clearly cutting up sand whales doesn't break the vow. You don't actually have to be silent and motionless and floating in the air. What about taking a side quest adventure with a young Princess Leia? Yeah, that seems to me like that might be verging on breaking the vow. So it's not clear from the men.

mention when exactly he took the vow, whether he could take a hiatus from the vow. Maybe it was after that little side quest. But at some point, Obi-Wan took the vow to. And that's the kind of circumstance that would lead you to do this, because we know he's scarred, not literally, I guess. Anakin is quite scarred by that experience. But he's scarred emotionally, certainly by what went wrong with his Padawan, his friend, his brother. And so he disconnected for a while. He just unplugged basically from the force. So would you say... That's what's Torbens doing here.

Yeah. Would you say breaking into a sacred ritual that a bunch of women are doing... To steal a child? Trying to lure away their children and then later killing all of them? Is that... Does that qualify for the barashmow? Maybe? I would say so.

Yeah. You know, that might satisfy the criteria. Okay. So... He's wiped out a whole coven. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, merely slicing the platform and...

interrupting the ceremony. That might not be barash worthy, you know? And so there's clearly something else that's happening here. Paring that perm with the paddle on braid. Like is that, does that qualify you for the barrage? It's a bold luck. It's quite a look. It is. Yeah. So because we know that Torbin did not have his wound at the start of episode three. And then we see him blurry out of focus in the background. And he has been wounded. He has been slashed, perhaps blinded. in that I, something happened here while we were unaware while we were just seeing events from OSHA's perspective. And so I think maybe the history, the precedent here for the Brash Vow kind of clues us into what might have happened here, because if we look at that canonical example that it's named after, the Brash-Sylvane example, this is a case where she let her sympathies, her preconceptions, sway her and blind her, not literally, but figuratively speaking, to the truth of the situation. And so that could be happening with the Jedi here with Torben. Obviously, it seems like they have

some suspicions about the dark side usage that's going on here. They have perhaps prejudged the coven and they may be apt to leap to conclusions about what they are training these children to do, what exactly this coven of witches practices. And maybe, that puts them on edge, right? Maybe that makes them do something that, in retrospect, they should not have done. And, you know, in fairness to Torben, he did get his mind briefly taken over, which maybe would not predispose you to. Yeah, I was going to find print on like, what if somebody else took over your mind right before you did the thing that made you question your ability to parse the truth. Mitigating circumstance, for sure.

Can I ask you, I want to ask you one more follow up. So we've, like, we've already been doing some speculation on this podcast, but what we think might have had. happened. But in terms of like the conspiracy and the cover up of all of this, because when May goes to, you know, offer him absolution, which is what we're calling it. And he said, he's, he's, he's, he only says, forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing. He also said, I've been waiting for you, May. Yeah. So what's your thought on like, what did Torbent? Because I'm inclined, but then again, I'm biased in his favor to believe that Saul genuinely thinks that May did not survive all of that. Right.

But do you think Torbin and, I mean, probably Indara, let's be real, knows that May survived. Certainly would seem that way, right? He's not surprised to see her. And clearly, the vow is not really working so well for him. Like, it doesn't seem like he's made a lot of progress in his self-therapizing over the past decade here. because he's pretty quick to take that poison. So for him, you know, for some of these Jedi, it's about kind of working your way back to the force and regaining your good judgment. For him, it seems like it might just be about shutting down that he's decided that he's not going to find his way back.

Whatever he did was unforgivable. And if anything, he's just kind of taking himself out of circulation until May arrives to take her vengeance or offer him penance, however we want to phrase this. But, you know, it could be that there was manipulation going on here, that there's another party, that the Sith, maybe those mysterious cloaked figures at the Ascension ceremony, maybe they prodded the Jedi into doing something here. Maybe it was Mother Coral, whose whereabouts are still unknown, but clearly resented the intrusion. Maybe someone was goading the Jedi into something that they were predisposed to do again because they're coming into this, not just. reacting and listening and feeling, but thinking that they know best, right, that they are aware of what's happening here, even though they claim that they thought the planet was uninhabited, which seems dubious.

What were you doing there? Crazy. That was the scenic route. That's a real tell a better way moment to me. What about the Jedi do not take children? What about that one? Thank you, Ben. That was an incredible lore down loud.

I really appreciate it. Wonderful, as always. Thanks. And it's nice that there's a little bit of High Republic linkage here, because even though this is technically set in the High Republic era, just right at the tail end of it, there's not really a lot that links back to the earlier High Republic material if you have taken the Brashvow and dive deep into all the material that's out there.

So this is a nice little nod, a little reward for those who did the reading. Your homework matters, Ben. My homework paid off. It did. It did. thrilling. Thank you. Thanks, Ben.

Let's go very, let's just dip a toe into Theory Corner. Okay. This is the way. This is the way. This whole thing was kind of Theory Corner. Yeah. But I just want to mention something. Actor David Harewood, who I love.

Estes from Homeland. Sure. Yeah. Fake Barack Obama and Dr. Who. Whatever you prefer. Wonderful British actor. There was a casting announcement that he joined the cast. it like kind of late in the game.

Not like a really official one, but like a very sort of like well-sourced one. So like what would David Harewood be doing? I do not think he is, what did you say, Venom Mouth? I think we feel pretty confident. We know who that is. But like what that introduces to me in Here in Theory Corner, where all theories are welcome. Is this idea that like is Venom Mouth the stranger? Yeah. Is he the apprentice and Harewood's the master? Whether it's Hairwood or anyone else, I do, that feels most likely to me that if our, if our chimera theory is right. Yeah. Let me just say one more thing. It's a flashback episode, so it makes sense that he's not in it. You miss Mani. I missed Mani. I did. I did. Like we got the taste of what Mani injected into the show and then to be deprived of, you know, to be deprived of this.

that in the next episode. I actually really felt his absence. So again, we had a lot of wonderful performance. Let's never do that again, Ackleine. Ackleite. I do, it feels likely to me that Chimer will be revealed as Venomouth

and he will be revealed as the apprentice of a Sith Lord. Whether it's David Harewood, whether that casting rumor is false or whatever, I was just sort of like, ooh, that's another player on the board. that I hadn't considered. Okay. Wigwatch.

Last but certainly not least. Certainly not. Whigwatch. Do you wear wigs? Oh, man. I just need you in this moment with me, Valerie Rubin, to, I would like you to shout out your favorite flashback wig. I think that Sol's hair looked the best, but I got the biggest kick out of Torbans. Yeah, I got the biggest kick out of Torbans wig, which, like, we had seen this wig in the

trailers because there's the shot of him. Like in the trance. But the comp, but what you couldn't really tell in the truth. I'm sorry, can you just, yeah. Thank you. There's a video podcast now, so I just need to, yeah, okay, thank you. Well, you couldn't really tell in the trailer or at least what didn't, I'm sure it was visible, but it didn't kind of catch my eye as much in real time was like the paddle and

the furze. Yeah, the brain. The brain plus the curls. Yeah, the combo of the paduan braid and like the perm. Wonderful stuff. Delightful. On the plus side. Mm-hmm.

Jody Turner Smith's hair looked. everything beautiful, resplendent. iconic. All right, that has been Wigwatch, T.M. With Molly Rubin and Joanna Robinson and Flashback Bangs, TM. This podcast is made not just by Power One, the Power of One, the Power Two, by the Power of Many. All right, so of course we have to thank. Great stuff.

That got me. Oh, ma'am. Steve Allman. for his long-distance cause that we heard here in the studio. Wonderful stuff. Thank you, Steve, and everything else that you do. Arjuna Ramgapal. Always.

For everything that he has done for me here today and for you and for everyone listening at home. Jomey and dinner on the social. Wonderful stuff, always from Jomey. Always. Thank you to Benjamin Lindberg for joining us for the lore segment. Yeah. Thank you to John Richter, a new name. John, welcome to the team.

The cast list. Thank you. Power of many. Welcome to the House of our John Richter. You will be able to listen to us. Poor John. What a first experience with our show, like a 97 hour in studio recording

where we were both locked out of the studio mid-recording separately from each other. It only took us an hour to figure out that we didn't want to have any headphones on. Great stuff, wonderful time. Love this, smooth sailing. Next time that... Mallory, when is the next time that people can both hear and watch us?

Sunday night, the minute. The minute. The day I say the second. The very second. The instant that the House of the Dragon, season two premiere concludes. Head to Spotify, the ringer verse YouTube channel, wherever you get your podcast, because we will be there with Chris Ryan for Talk the Thrones. Sunday night.

Pals, there's a whole set. It's a whole thing. It's a whole production. There are candles. Goblets. Yeah. There are goblets. Yeah.

They're goblets. There's a whole, it's a whole thing. So please tune in for Talk the Thrones. We'll see you then. Bye.