House of R - 'The Acolyte' Episode 8 Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

It's time to bleed the crystal, as Jo and Mal are here to dive deep into the season finale of 'The Acolyte.' They begin with their opening snapshot on this episode and their thoughts on the season in general (06:54). Then they get into the nitty gritty of revelations and surprise cameos that make up this divisive season of TV (17:02). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech. you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep

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I could never learn to calm my negative emotions. My hatred of you, my grief over our mother. So I never became a Jedi. And I guess in the end you got what you wanted. Soul killed our mother. I saw it with my own eyes. He's lied to you. Every day since you left our home.

How could he teach you to control your negative emotions? He's the reason you have them. You didn't fail. He did. Addie issues aren't just for male creators anymore. Welcome to Star Wars, Leslie Edlin. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today.

She's the love of my life. I would bleed a crier for her. I would creepily stare around the corner of a cave at her if I could. I would bring Yoda to have a meeting with her if I could. It's Mallory. Ruben. Hey, Mal. Joanna, this is our first remote recording in more than a month.

We've been together for everything. And I just wish that I could reach through the Zoom and wrap my hand around yours, entwined around our recently bled saber as we look out. Would you... Would you... Raise my thumb with your thumb? Because... Gently?

That would be great. And enticingly. Wonderful. We are here to talk about the Acolyte. Episode 8, the finale. We are deep diving into the finale. We are here at the end of season one. Will there be more seasons?

We don't know yet. We'll talk about that sort of a little bit at the end of the pod. First, some quick programming reminders. There's a lot going on. So listen. All the usual stuff is happening. The men and I boys are going to do an instant reaction. to the boys.

We've got our House of the Dragon coverage that you are well aware of. Talk the Thrones. The Midnight boys are covering it. We're covering it, we're covering, et cetera. We did a live show last night, which is partially why we're recording remotely today, and you'll be able to hear that on the feed next week,

which is exciting. Allegedly, if all goes according to plan, Van and I are doing a debate about the Last Jedi next week. I don't know, because we love to tempt fate in our friendship. we'll have our various Deadpool and Wolverine coverage. And speaking of that, we wanted to take a second to promote Daniel Chin's Deadpool and Wolverine

sort of deep dive into the history of Deadpool, X-Men on film, Marvel, the state of Marvel, all of that. He's got great interviews, and that's dropping on the ring of risk feed on Friday. And he interviewed a ton of people, including Ears Truly, and also just a bunch of people involved in. in the film and at Marvel, et cetera, et cetera. So it's going to be really, if you're a huge fan of Marvel, if you're curious of what's going on,

if you're, should I get excited about Deadpool and Wolverine? How did this even happen? You did months of research and work on this project. I'm really excited. It's an awesome narrative feature. Check it out. You can find it on the POD feed. You can find it on the ringer.com.

What a great website. Anywhere, everywhere. Wonderful. That's a lot that we're doing. This is just a super-chip. all quiet summer we're all having. But you know what? We're honestly having the time of our lives. What a bounty. And so if you're listening and you're like,

how can I follow along? As the bounty grows and swells and seemingly never slows, we would recommend that you follow the pods. Follow the house of our and follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the new Ringerverse YouTube channel. Hit that subscribe button. This is a rare episode, really the rare recently that is not a video episode because of various scheduling and logistical

constraints this week. We'll be back on video for Talk of Thrones, obviously, and our hot deep dive next week. But in general, House of our Talk of Thrones, Midnight Boys, full pods up on the Ring ofverse YouTube and available to watch on Spotify in perpetuity. Thirling stuff. And you can listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast while you're at it. Follow the Ringgiverse on the social media platform of your choosing. You can get little breakouts. little video clips from the pods. You can see clips from the live show that Joe was just talking about.

You could see photos of Jomi holding the Stanley Cup posted in honor of his birthday. We got to watch Jomi's family surprise him at the live show last night and say, happy birthday to him. It was incredibly sweet and memorable. So check out the socials.

And, of course, send us your emails. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The house of our inbox is open and piping hot. Oh, it's, it's, uh, the joint is jumping, let me just say. And also, we should say, as we close the door on the Acolyte, it just means we're that much closer to actual Hobbits. By Hobbits, I mean Harfoots, but the Rings of Power is coming. We're very excited. Mere weeks. Mere weeks away.

How exciting. So listen. Spoiler warning. Anything that ever happened in Star Wars. That's it. That's all I'm going to say. Just get it? Everything that's ever happened in Star Wars. Nothing more to spoil for the Ackolite because here we are at the end of all things. This episode is called The Acolyte. It is the titular role. It was written by Jason McAleff, I believe, so you pronounce, and directed by Hennel Cole Pepper.

She directed a previous episode as well as a bunch of other television that you know and love. Before we get into the deep dive, Mallory Rubin, would you join me in an opening snapshot? Mallory Rubin. Joanna Robinson. What do you think? Give me a little taste of. This episode and then maybe how are you feeling about the season as a whole? Just a little.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mixed positive on the finale. Mixed positive on the series. And like, I think that the reasons are similar for the feeling on the finale and the feeling on the series. I'm not going to list everything that I like to dislike about the finale because we'll talk about it as we go. but broadly, it's in line with a lot of what we've been discussing to this point. You know, our time with Chimer, our time with soul, riveting, our time with OSHA and the stranger, grasping hands looking out into the future, thrilling. Yeah.

A glimpse of Darth Plagas. Sign me up. I'm elated, genuinely excited and hyped. this combat is so inventive and exhilarating inside of Star Wars. It just continues to be this jolt of electric possibility that I think we thought this series more broadly would provide. All of that is awesome. I left the finale, really hoping the show would get greenlit for a second season because there's a lot that I'm invested in and want to see. And so I think my experience with the finale was my experience with the season. When I'm watching it in real time,

there are so many moments often involving OSHA and May scenes or like Jedi Council scenes, Vern scenes. Though I will say I actually quite quite liked the Senator Rangorkechart scene. Oh, me too. I was really excited about that. So that was a positive update to what was happening on Corrissan. My mind is often racing in real time. Why would a character behave this way?

Why is this the exact nature of the dialogue or the calibration of the performance? And then I get to the end of the episode and I want to know what happens next. and I'm pretty entertained when I'm watching it. Like, it's this fascinating duality at play. A lot of the May and OSHA stuff in the episode just did not work for me. Like, there's stuff together. I found the scene under the Buntu scene so confounding.

I, like, can barely believe it made the final cut. I have some other questions and thoughts. I did, including about Yoda, appearing at the very end. And, you know, overall, that larger question of how separate and distinct. this is versus how linked it is. I think we know now definitively, like, unquestionably, that we're blazing the path directly to Anakin. And like in some ways, and to Palpatine, and in some ways, that's interesting and exciting. And in some ways, it's, I think, violates

the core pitch of the show in a way that I'm like a little confused by still. I would like to go back and see how much, how much did they actually promise this would be like stand-alone, distinct, unconnected? I don't remember that language necessarily, but. I think it's less even necessarily, and in some ways I think this is actually more of an indictment, what I'm about to say. I think it's less actually about what specific show Leslie wanted to make with the accolite. Leslie's a fan of legends, a fan of a character like Plagueist, wanting to explore all of that. Actually, makes complete sense to me. Yeah.

Finally going into a new period of the timeline. Yes. And still making it all about how we got to. Ralph Dean and Anakin is such a narrow confining reality for what our Star Wars stories can be. That is, I feel that way, genuinely. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in it, though. And that's like I carry both of those truths inside of me at once as a Star Wars fan, I think. Conflict inside the human heart.

Yeah. What did you think? I would say, I mean, you and I, we talked about this, a little spoiler. We talked about this a little bit backstage at the live show last night. So we are pretty closely aligned in that like there's a lot. so much that didn't work for us, both in the season and in the finale. I think fundamentally the major flaw of the show is that it is failed May as a character entirely.

This is just not a character I understand. I mean, we've wiped the sleek clean for season two, so maybe like season two May, amnesia may will be my favorite, who knows? but like as a character whose wants and needs and desires I understand, I am confounded constantly by what they're doing with May. OSHA makes more sense to me. The OSHA and chimera stuff really works for me, obviously. We talked about that.

I'm like, soul continues to work for me. I'm just going to, I would just repeat everything you said. You and I'm like largely agree. I guess the one thing I would push back on is like, I don't want to say the premise or the promise of the show was something unconnected, but it was the potential of the show. Yeah. That's a better way of place. Yeah.

It's what we were just like when we're in a new area. Yeah. We're just going to do something else entirely. How exciting. And it's like, no, actually we're taking the long road to Annigan. And what this all feels like, I mean, especially like May and OSHA have like sort of switched places. We're kind of back where we started a little bit at the end of this. So what this all feels like at the end of the day to me a bit is like prologue.

This feels like prologue for something very exciting in the future. And I don't feel like it's time wasted. But it does give that sense of like, oh, okay, now maybe the real story begins. Yes. But also then that real story, which hopefully will be incredibly entertaining and compelling to watch, is also going to be prologue for how Anakin was created. Well, it's pre-manipulating the force. It's prequel.

It's prequel for that. Yeah. Prequels to the prequels. Who knew that I would want it? I am hyped about Plagueis. I have to, like, kind of own my own contradictions here because there's a part of me that's like, why? Like, just do something totally different. And then a part of me, this is just actually genuinely interested in seeing that.

So I don't know. It's, you know, Star Wars, it's a, it's a tough one. I kind of always want more of the thing I know I like. And I do like flushing out the space around the thing and especially the thing that is most central. I was really excited to play an entirely different and separate sandbox. And maybe some of those, we would understand how like a pail in that sandbox came from another sandbox. But the grains of sand were different and the people in the sandbox were different. Same old sand.

And it turns out it's just really one big sandbox. And that's, I guess, okay. It's the same old sand, but here's what I will say. An Anakin hates sand. I don't know if you know it. It gets everywhere. The true promise. It's irritating.

The true promise of this show was. a Sith point of view in which it largely failed. However, I do feel like that is exactly where I am for season two. We end this episode and Vern, who's like, you gotta help me find my former pupil. We're like, boo hiss, right? Boo hiss, not just to burn the character, but like to the Jedi. And we watch our hero-coded Sith couple stand as like as if we're at the end. end of Rogue 1 watching like, you know, a sunrise sunset and we're like, I hope those two crazy

kids work it out. That's, they have put us firmly in the Sith point of view, which it took eight episodes to get there. But that is where we will start if we get a second season, which I genuinely hope we do. I really do. And that's, I feel the same way. And that's part of why I left it, despite feeling like it was an uneven experience, like, hopeful that they will get a chance to keep making the show and to spend more time in that

particular vantage point. The thing I loved most about that shot, I was about to say final shot. Lamentably, it was not actually the final shot. In my mind, it's the final shot. I'm just living for this brain new world where Mallory joins me on the I don't want that legacy character cameo. No, that's not, that's actually not how I feel about it. I feel like this is really different from the ones that work well and that that's actually why I dislike at, which we'll we could talk about later or now, whatever you prefer.

But the thing I love, the Rogue one, the Cassian gin call it that you just made is obviously like a perfect one and it invokes that, I think, quite intentionally.

Yeah. What I love about that is that the other thing that was, I think impossible not to think about with that visual is Luke looking up with the binary sons. And so like...

Or Luke at the end of his life, like any time a character's looking at a sunrise or a sunset in Star Wars, it is heavily coded. But that particular... blend of like, because that moment in Rogue One, it's so satisfying. We're so proud. We've managed to experience this really sad. But it's devastating. It's like doom. Doom has claimed you. And so there's a tragedy that is unmistakable and a creep of tragedy that is unmistakable.

Yeah. Should we just do this whole pod from the opera? I would love that actually. But then you also have this like image, this association with an image of hope and possibility. And that kind of note, being able to ping both of those things. And I think equal measure for us with a visual like that is like impressive and exciting and cool. So that's what I'm like looking forward to more of in the future. Visually stunning, more, more excellent use of the like real world locations. Great orchestral cue. Like the score was really, really working there for me.

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Date line unknown planet inside a helmet o'clock. Here we are. It's OSHA right where we left her inside the Cortosa's helmet, having a panic attack is what it seems like. And also a vision. Do you think it's because she saw like when she was just, just her in the forest that the helmet wasn't available until 2025 and it instantly sold out? Do you think that was what sparked that reaction? No. I think she had a vision of.

tracking her down so you could rip the helmet from red. What do I have to do to get that fucking helmet? I just enraged. Okay. I completely misinterpreted this, what happens next. And thankfully, one of our listeners set me right, as I'm sure you would have. But, like, chimera reaches out to her. And for some reason, I thought chimera was in control of this.

But one of our listeners, Kayla, was like, didn't it seem like, OSHA was using her mother's wish, and I'm sure you, Mal would have been like, duh, Joanna, this is what's happening. But like, OSHA is using her mother's witchy powers to put Chimer in the same, you know, in the upside down, the same way Anasea put Torben in the upside down, like where the cave is,

we're flashing between the cave and the blue space where Torben was. I thought this was something Torben was doing using witch power, but of course it makes a million times where she says, because he's the one who's like frozen. and struggling to move to get the helmet off her head. But O'Sha is having a sort of like flare. It doesn't seem intentional. A flare of magic that has put him in an Anasea-flavored, you know, controlled space.

Fascinating potential for this. Yeah, this was, I thought in. Let's generously charitably say in. And I think intentional way, like meant to almost confuse. us a little bit. You're like, oh, wait, whoa, what is happening? And yeah, I think that OSHA, you know, you could go to Theory Corner here and say, oh, did some sort of, like, upload to the cloud actually happen, right? Right. Exactly. Is everyone, are all of the members of the Covent Coral accepted? You have a question coming in the talk about Coral. I'm like, my heart stopped when I read it.

I'm genuinely like tried to repress my memory of Coral. But is she, is that power manifest? because actually there is a power inside of her that has been ported into her that she actually doesn't quite know is there. Right, exactly. Absent any actual transference on the night of the ascension and the moment of Anasea's saber death

in the smoke monster state, is this just OSHA manifesting the power that was always going to be a part of her because she is a creation of a virgines clone? This force energy, this extremely powerful being a member of this witch coven who has like additional then power and a connection to the thread beyond whatever Jedi or Sith training would be a part of her experience. Later at one point in the docket I'd call her like a juicy little morsel for Plague is to feed on. And like there's something about her and even more so than May, which is perhaps why Sol latched on to her in the first place. but Kimer says something later

that sort of implies that she's more powerful than May or at least has tapped into something that May hasn't. So this idea of like the witchy power that is outside of the Sith understanding, outside of the force Jedi understanding makes her a danger to the Jedi,

which is what Kimer says later, right? They won't let you live. They didn't let your mother live. They won't let you live. And that actually feels true. But it is also something that like hopefully he can help her. her train or she can teach him one way or the other.

There was this moment at the end because, you know, the title is Ackleit. He says he wanted a pupil. We're going to, man to give an interview to the New York Times. I thought was really interesting about like sort of why it was that Khmer would be sort of thirsting for something like that outside of the Sith sort of rule of two. But standing there at the end, they looked more like equals and partners than they looked like master and apprentice to me. And so I kind of like the idea potentially in a season two.

that we may or may not ever get of them teaching each other things, right? She needs to learn to control certain things or, you know, some sithy ways of the world. But he doesn't know how to send people to the upside down. And isn't that something he would love to learn how to do, you know? So like— Yeah. What did you make—this is sort of related to that? Like, what did you make of his face during souls?

you're not twins, you're the same person reveal. Like, did you read that as, oh shit, other people know this too? I'm not the only one who knows about this amazing potential or did you read that as, wait, what? Like, I didn't know that. And this is even more intriguing, but also potentially like, it read as wait, alarming and hard to control.

It read as wait what to me. Yeah, same. But also, let's, let's zip ahead. We're going to wrap up our time on this. planet and say, let's just hop ahead to Darth Plagueis. Because I actually think, I think Darth Plagis knows exactly what she is, or consents at least some part of this. Okay.

So they make this uneasy alliance. She knows where they're going. He's got the ship. They're going to go together. Yeah. And then he makes one more bit to her, but it's not the last time, actually. But he is like, last chance, you know, would you ever consider, do you want to join me? A few things here.

I think they look amazing and they're matching darkside fits. I think they look incredible. I think the Oceanside location looks incredible as always. Again, we'll come back here for the ocean vista. For the sunset. You hate a crevice, especially if a Sith Lord is hiding in one. I hate when characters say last chance and it is not in fact the last chance. That bothers me.

Why did he say it? No need. And then this feels very much of a piece with that Last Jedi scene with Kylo and Ray that Leslie likes to cite. The like when he says, you have no place in the story. You come from nothing. You're nothing fun. but not to me, join me, please. Like, this join me a number of times,

Kymu will reach out his hand to Oshah literally in this episode. And both Kylo and Khylo and Kimer love to guess like gatekeep girl boss. There's like this, there's this genuine plea and offer for companionship that comes wrapped in with, in the case of that Kylo and Ray seen a nagging, you're nothing. Yes. But not to me. And here, you know, obviously Chimer is constantly manipulating her. She says, I told you, I'm not my sister at the end of this exchange.

He says, you're definitely not. May made that deal without even thinking about it, which is both true, but also as we discussed in the sort of breakdown of his earlier seduction of her, exactly what she wants to hear. You're not your sister. Yep. Here's my note for Star Wars. Great. A fictional universe I love.

Yeah. One of my three, literally three favorites. Yes. Period. Yes. One day it would be great if the person on the receiving end of a year nothing speech actually was. One day.

It would be great. But not this, Virgin's clone. Not a part of the Palpatine line or pure force. One day. Oh, brew boy. We await your trilogy. Okay.

love broomboy fucking loved broomboy I'm right me too stay tuned for my debate with Van about the Last Jedi okay I have a question for you Mallory did you ever hear

the tragedy of Darth Pelagis the wise have you heard and you know it's a shared not only here in mere seconds on this podcast but in one of my favorite movies of all time

baffling cool story all right so this is Darth Plagus the shadowy figure in the game is Darth Plagus as confirmed by Leslie Headland to Indy Wire.

As if we had any doubts, but she's like, yeah, don't worry, we're not playing Koi. This is what she said to Indy Wire about his appearance here early. And I love that like this scene takes place with them standing the exact same place they are at the end of the episode. So it was really easy for her to move these scenes around. Originally this like Dark Plagueis sneaks and snoops his way around the corner of the cave came right at the end where they're having their Rogue One moment, right? she says to Indy Wire, there was a version where he was the button of the finale instead of Yoda.

Honestly preferable. But having the sinister figure to be the last thing we felt was never quite right. She says, quote, you want to feel OSHA's triumph. You want to feel her joining forces with the stranger. Plague is stepped on that moment. So they put it here. She put it here instead where we're just sort of like, oh, well, Darth Blagis is here. Mallor wanted him here.

Here he is. Who is Darth Plagis? We've been referencing him a bit all season. But for the uninitiated, let's just hear it from. from Palpatine himself. Steve, we play this clip. Do you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagas the wise? No.

I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagos is a dark lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise, he could use the force to influence the Middiclorians to create. life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side. He could even keep the ones he cared about

from dying. He could actually save people from death. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. What happened to him? became so powerful. The only thing he was afraid of was... Losing his power. Which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

It's ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself. Is it possible to learn this power? learn this power. Not from a Jedi. Ian McDermid, the legend you are. The legend you are. Unbelievable.

Mallory Riven. Darth Plagueis was killed by his apprentice. Who was that apprentice? Fucking sheave, man. Palpi himself. Yeah. You know, it's not all lakeside and a boo action for Palpi. Um, what do we think someone like Plagueis is going to do with a tasty little virgin's morsel

like OSHA? You know, last, last pod, last week, you, you felt compelled multiple times to note that you were saying virgins, not virgins, and yet didn't in the sentence, tasty little virgins morsel. Interesting. Bad, baby. Interesting, interesting time to assume people will just know what word we're saying there. So this is, this is a delight. Plague is being here is, this is a figure. who Star Wars fans, legends, readers, Revenge of the Sith, viewers, right?

A name, depending on how much time you're spending reading 2012 novels or anything else, your familiarity may vary, right? Yeah. But the name has hung over the Sith canon in a way that is just ripe and full of possibility for further exploration in the Disney Canada era. So this is cool. This is exciting. the putting him here and having him like loiter and creepily like peek around the edge of the rock to watch them

real sol on bread dock energy for the tart is here yes swap the the the tree bark for the the stony crevas what i love about that is it leaves us it leaves us free to speculate about a couple things, what you're asking, but also just more broadly, what is his connection to the stranger? We can consider a few different possibilities. Maybe he is the stranger's master. That's one possibility, certainly, right? A character who is pursuing immortality and around in the canon for a vast swath of time will have more than one apprentice. So that would be cool. Plus, we know that chimier is older than he looks. Right, exactly.

Long time. When Vern says you're alive at the end, the question might not just be like, I thought I killed you, but also, shouldn't you be dead? Right, from just your natural lifespan. Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay, is he Plague's apprentice? And if so, does he know that his apprentice is seeking a pupil of his own? Does he not? Is this a discovery? Now, this is Plague's home base if it is, in fact, Baldemnik, as we are speculating and seems likely based on a lot of evidence. And that would be the planet where not only we have the cortosis veins, but where Plague has killed his own master. So, and correct me if I'm wrong on the timeline, as you are the timeline expert, that hasn't happened yet.

right though I think that because that's legends timeline they reserve the right to amend that probably but that's right so okay that's one kind of like broad bucket of possibility the other is maybe the stranger's not his apprentice and he's competition that's I think in play completely in play and the nature of the spying again the spying could be you're my apprentice that I didn't know you were taking on your own acolyte and that gets into the like whole larger like rule of two of it all, right? Or it could be, who are you, this powerful rising presence in the, in the dark side? I need to keep an eye on you. And then to get to your morsel part, either way, I think we have to wonder a couple things. Unquestionably, this helps influence what will happen with Anakin. Yeah. Is he already behind some of that?

The, like, was he involved in it initially in Brandock in the Cree? Right? Because we have that exchange later about the unique, truly unique nature of the power needed to do that. Is that Anasea's power? Maybe is there another power behind that, perhaps Plagueis, guiding the creation? Or was that, in fact, Anasea on her own? And then Plagas is like, I've got to learn how they did this. I got to study some of that. Yeah. All of that feels in bounds, which is to me really tantalizing. I think the only thing, I guess I need to go back and rewatch is snooping and sneaking. but it seemed like he was doing it from inside. Yeah, Mallory just did a great impression. What a day for this not to be on video. It seemed like he did that from inside the like crevasse that is also his chambers. You know what I mean? Like he was inside his cave room, though I suppose any cave could look like that.

Okay. Follow up thoughts and questions. Leslie in that interview with Indyweyer said she didn't want it to be on people's minds that Plague's was pulling the strings on OSHA and Kynir. Right. Whether or not, she didn't say whether or not that that's what was happening. She didn't want people to be thinking about that in the final moments of the episode. Yeah, it's the dominant.

And so because Kymir and OSHA, especially in the way that they're just like finger grazing up a storm in this episode, are so Kylo and Ray Coated. I wish we had gotten some finger grazing. We kind of did, like over the, over the lightsaber. But like, because they're so Kylo and Ray coded, and we know that, like, Snoke was pulling the strings on their connection, that feels, leads me down the path of Plague is definitely orchestrated this. Whether he said overtly to Chimer, here's May. You know, we don't know how did Chimera may meet.

We don't know that story yet. So whether or not he overtly said, here's May. or psychically nudged him the way that he, that Snoke nudges Kylo and Ray, I don't know. I hope it's the latter. I'm excited to see how this all sort of is. And that would seem more in line with what you were teasing earlier, which I know we were going to talk about elsewhere,

but maybe it's worth talking about here, that New York Times interview and the idea of like what the stranger is seeking, right? Because that fits better in that ladder. of like maybe there's some inception and nudging going on, but if he is seeking a connection on his own versus like following through on an order, that feels maybe more in line. Lonely boy. All right. So cast out by the Jedi in one way or another, this is what Manning said to the New York Times about chimier. It always comes down to this feeling of being an outsider, being in a place that doesn't accept you. I think that's the reason it really resonated with Leslie

and me, Leslie being a female gay showrunner in this industry and me being an Asian-American male in this industry who constantly had to fight for our position and we've constantly had to prove ourselves. So I think it really is just a parallel to that type of feeling of wanting to be accepted and wanting to be really, wanting to be able to really express oneself. So Chimer is longing for connection outside of perhaps the creepiness that is Darth Blakis, if he is indeed his accolite. You know, so maybe he thinks he's doing this stupor self mission to like get his own acolyte and his master would never approve because of the rule of two or whatever.

But then again, we don't know the timeline is, is Darth and Everest Plague is his master still alive in canon timeline? We're not sure. So could he, he couldn't even have an official accolade in kinder. So a lot of questions, again, makes me all excited for a potential season two. I think this is really fun. And I wish it hadn't been like such a stumble stop to get here. But I think it's really fun. I totally agree.

And I'll just quickly mention again there on the possibilities of like secret apprentices that Plagueis' master had a secret apprentice of his own who we talked about. They're always having secret appearances. Yeah, a couple weeks ago. Venomis. Venomis. So, yeah. Everybody can help themselves, you know.

Duku had to have venturous, et cetera. I just want to say that is it Higo Damask the second? Is that how you would pronounce that? Hego. it's like Hugo but with a knee it's very George R. Martin

this is this is Plague's his real name and I have no notes I love Damask great

the second great I love all of this all of this all right so let's let's go to somewhere

in space outside of bread dock I don't really want to dwell here a lot may may gets herself loose

with the help Pip can I just say quickly Yeah. It's like little things like this that drive me crazy. Soul doesn't hear Pip. Soul is the worst Jedi.

He's like four feet away. Pip who I love is so loud as like a little electric screwdriver. I don't need to speak ill of the recently dead and framed for a lot of things he didn't do. But there are so many times in this episode and elsewhere where he just doesn't sense shit. And I guess literally can't hear things with his own earballs. So that's just where we are. I really did not like this because this coming out of the flashback episode, we get no interaction between them that is evident that he just sat there and told her that story. And again, we had the question last week of like, whose point of view even was it that we were watching?

All we come out of last week's, you know, when he's like, I've been wanting to tell someone or you this for long. time so I strapped you down to a table and I will take my opportunity to do so and then they don't have like a real conversation about what you know she's just like you kill my mother she already knew that so like what what else is happening here so anyway um quite you know it's it's bizarre uh he keeps doubling down it's very unappealing throughout the the episode his him like doubling down on like i was justified i did the right thing my only regret was not saving both of you. She, we get, we get the virgins clone tease. We'll come back to that because he'll be able to complete his sentence later. Interrupted by a little zap here. She says, see you in hell,

Jedi. We actually got a ton of emails about this, but you cannot get mad at Leslie about this because Hans Solo said it in an empire. So. But that's why, that's the thing about it that makes me mad. Not the line being in the show, the nod to Han. May has not, I'm sorry, but May has not earned the right to. No. Well, but May is not even a character. Share a Han solo line.

It doesn't even, like, what chimera say that I'm fine? Okay. And then we get a space. Like, May got a Han Solo moment. What? We get a space chase fight. Yeah. How did you feel about this space chase fight?

Again, mixed because I thought visually it was cool and interesting. You know, it reminded me of going through the bone belt in Asoka. But as is, I love a bone belt, as is, I think often the case across the series, the, oh, wow, that's cool, is like slightly weighed down by some sort of confounding thing. And I think there were a couple of those in this. Like, May saying for no reason that Soul's ship was too big to follow her in there.

And then two seconds later, he's right on top of her. It's like, why even say that then? You just make your own characters look stupid. Or Basel sabotaging Soul ship so that he didn't use the shooting target. And then Sol saying and doing nothing about it. Like Basil causes everyone to crash and there's no acknowledgement of it. That's just really weird. So I was like, oh, going through the rocks of the planet belt, neat.

And then the characters are doing things that make no sense. And that is in many ways, I think, the story of the acolyte. I regret to him before you, it is time to go to Corrason. I just really agree with you. The whole Basil's sabotages and the shift thing is baffling. And I, but I have nothing to add to it. Okay. So besides and portents here, you and I agree that like most every Vernon scene were like, no, thank you.

But here comes David Harewood. We've been like, who the hell is he playing? Yeah. He's playing Senator Ray and Court as we sort of wondered if he might. Here he is. And he's great. Crushed it. Just wonderful.

We get some, like, unhelpful recapping of everything from Vern, but we get this exchange between Ray and Court and Vern. Including revealing that there were more murders than he knew about, which I thought was genuinely amusing. Tough, tough moment for our favorite space twink, Mog, though, when he's like, the Senate is here to see him into the control. He's like so excited.

He's like, the Senate is here. Oh, what? Wait, was I not supposed to grant an access to your hollow archives? I gave him the login to your data bank. Is that okay? Oh, oops. All right. Steve, can we hear the great David Harewood?

You don't like me. You think my campaign for an external review of the Jedi is a personal vendetta. If you want my honest opinion, yes. Good. Here's mine. I think the Jedi are a massive system of unchecked power, posing as a religion, a delusional cult that claims

to control the uncontrollable. We don't control the force. Not the force. Your emotions. You project an image of goodness and restraint. But it's only a matter of time before one of you snaps. And when, not if that happens, who will be strong enough to stop him.

That's certainly an opinion and not one shared by the rest of the Senate. The majority of my colleagues can't imagine a galaxy without the Jedi. And I can understand why. When you're looking up to heroes, you don't have to face what's right in front of you. Okay, I think I mentioned before that when we interviewed Leslie before the season, she said some things that I cut out of the interview because it felt spoiler. And one of them was this line, which is, uh, And when, not if that happens, who will be strong to stop him?

She didn't say who said it. I assumed it was chimier, but she didn't say, who said it? She's like, someone in the finale says this. And I was like, well, we're cutting that out. But like, as soon as she said that, I was like, well, she didn't say Anakin, but I'm like, that's the most Anakin coded thing we've ever heard in our entire fucking lives. But I'm so, I have a question for you about, I mean, like, there's a lot of great language here. I loved him saying delusional cult. I love this idea that like the Jedi are being interrogated from the Senate and the Sith like coming and getting it from both sides essentially here.

But when he says and when not if that happens, who will be strong enough to stop him? It's almost the specificity of the pronoun that like makes me wonder what does Ray and Court know? Is there any like possibility that he has some sort of like access to the force himself or. or other knowledge or something like, why is he so sure that we're barreling towards Palpatine and Anakin? What do you? Yeah. I mean, theory fodder, definitely. Is he a secret sip?

Right. If there are timeline changes with legends, death points or anything else, like, who could he potentially be or be connected to? Who could have taught him? Who could he have taught? I feel like almost anything is in bounds. And that's exciting. I really like this. I have to say that's certainly an opinion.

I was like riveted watching this. And then that line just sucked me back out. So it was a wild experience. Anyway, I thought that this was really, this is an example of how it's like effective to play on our knowledge of what's to come, right, in the future. Because we can speculate as we're doing right now. like, well, how does he know? Why is it him? Okay. Maybe that is just ultimately there for us, right? Because it's like, we know who he is. We know that this is Anakin's setup. But the other reason that I like this beyond the building the bridge to Anakin, beyond the rain court theorizing that it sparks for us, is like this is still the part of the show other than, you know, chimera and OSHA and their electricity. This was the soul.

through line of the show that worked so well for us. Like this interrogation of the relationship between the Jedi and emotion. And it felt essential to have that voiced so directly. Yeah. And like with such panache, like David Harewood affecting like a slightly taffier accent than he usually uses here. I just, I just loved it. I loved his design. This is great.

I'm like, because we've been like, oh, no, we're back. in chorus on, oh no, politics, apologies, but like, this is wonderful. And it makes me, again, hopeful for a future season where we get even more of this character. Yeah. And I think this is the way to make it feel like the scenes that take us away from the characters

were more interested in into the Jedi Council or Senate and High Republic scenes where we're like, oh, boy, bureaucracy. Yeah. If they're connected to examining that central thematic question, then they feel important. And if there's poetry and intrigue and the language and delivery, you don't have to face what's right in front of you.

It's great. We can tell why he has the following, Herewood. And again, this also just feels like kind of bold and like, you know, in Star Wars, I do think having your characters in your show and having your story put ideas like this to the fore. It's like a brave thing to do because we've seen how the fan base can, certain segments of the fan base can really respond negatively, toxicly to it.

And it's like one of the things, one of the reasons, again, we've talked about this lot. You and Van will talk about it more next week. Like, why we loved the Last Jedi so much, why many people do. And like the lament that we felt that the need to kind of like unwind many of the things that happened in Last Jedi.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so disappointing. And so like for many reasons inside what this show specifically in these characters can unlock, but just more broadly, like Star Wars being willing to, engage with something the up the non like oh you're heroes you're the coolest figures in the galaxy like everybody buys

their lightsaber merch including me and can't wait to sit down and watch Star Wars it's like well what are what is what is the other side of this like what is the we're always talking about the dark side well what is the dark side inside of the light like I just really think it's I can't wait for this to be a more front loaded

central part of season two if we are in that Sith point of view more. I just am really, really excited for that. And again, that also is part of why it's like enticing to theorize about a potential Sith connection to Rank Court because that is Sith perspective. But it's also, I would say genuinely as interesting if then he has no tie to the Sith. Totally. The like how is the processing thing would be. But it's just like other people feel this way about you too, not just dark side users. Exactly. Exactly. I just really love it. I, I know that like Lucasfilm has in the past shied away from this in other projects, like projects that have been canceled or changed or whatever, they were like, we don't want to do this interrogation. I love that

this is here. I just really, you know what, okay, we got an email. I'm not going to read the email itself with love and respect to that person. I don't want to plagiarize their headline without acknowledging it. The headline of the email was the greatest teacher failure is. It wasn't really about this, but like, the greatest teacher failure is is what can turn. a stumble of a a season one into an incredible season two.

And the greatest teacher failure is is what can turn Lucasfilm and their scaredy cat approach to the rise of Skywalker

into something bolder and braver in the future. And so that's why I mean, I was talking a little bit before you jumped on the Zoom to Steve and Arjuna

about a second season and like, you know, quite realistically, I'm not throwing you under the bus at all, Steve is like, why should I possibly

hoped that they would improve for the future. What evidence? Upon what evidence, Joanna? And I'm like, yeah. The hope, the dream. Like, I don't know. I don't know why I've- Rebellions are built on hope. Steve. I don't know why I've decided to be optimistic about this, but I'm just like, I don't know. Like, what's the point of me saying it's not going to happen? I think I would much rather just, like, hope and wish that it will happen, you know? I really agree. Two things. One, we talked about this a lot last week. a podcast that we've restructured because we were so down on the episode. Yeah.

But part of the reason that we're feeling some of these laments and some of these critiques to really feel poignant inside of the show is because the potential is so clear in other spots. That's genuine. We're not like just saying that

so we would protect anyone's feelings or because we want like a female-led Star Wars story or whatever. It's because like genuinely there's like meat on the bone here thematically. And that's why I love the way that you just described the season. I love that you said stumble because the reason that feels perfect to me is like you can only stumble if you're trying to run.

Like they tried to do something. And that's valuable. Like that's important. That's cool. So let's try to do something again. And maybe we tie our shoelaces a little tighter. I don't know how running works. I don't ever try it.

Steve, you're a runner. Maybe you have insights to. share. Our shoe lace is important? I don't know. All right. Let's go to Breaddock. Well, I'll just say we get a tease of, we had a Yoda tease. We're meant to think it's something more insidious. Like, she's contacting, you know, a Sith or something like that.

But it's, it's Yoda. She's trying to contact Yoda. Vern's trying to contact Yoda. Mogg. Why? Gets to redeem himself from his earlier blunder by saying, we found Saul. He's on Brentdock. Everybody's going to Brownock. A bunch of nights are coming with them. And she says, he's like, you expect a confrontation. She says a resolution. So I guess my question to you then before we go to Brenddock is like, do you think she had already decided

to frame Saul before they even go? Would she have done something to him if she hadn't found him dead on the ground? What do you think? Interesting question. I don't know. I don't know. And I have two responses to the fact that I don't know. One is, I'm up to your mind to show. One is, I don't know. And I like that I don't know because there's intrigue and mystery and it leaves room in the future for us to learn more. And then the other side of it is I don't know because I don't feel like I understand anything about this character. But I mean, she did exactly almost precisely exactly what we thought she was going to do.

Yes. there was just a gentleness to it that we didn't quite as she does this very shirving in a way that I thought was effective. Yeah. Okay. Let's go to Brenda. I think if I had to guess, I would say she decides when she sees his body. This is what I'll do. But like I don't think she necessarily had a fully lock. I'm absolutely setting out to follow through on my concretized. I set the spreadsheet plan to frame Soul. I think. she knew she had to figure out how to contain this, because that's been the case since, you know, the beginning of the season, this, like, fear, this paranoia, that discovery would upend something for the Jedi.

So I believe the level of specificity and intent, I'm not sure, like, heading in, but I think the part of the intent that was present was, I have to make sure that we're protected at all costs. I don't know that anyone would have necessarily been safe for Vern, based on how this goes, though I was relieved that Mogg made it out of life. Mogg and Baz is that a spin-off you want.

Okay. So it's a bit more like Ned Stark now tens sort of thing. It's sort of like I don't have a specific way, but like no matter what, we're finishing this because I got to get to Leanna. Okay. Let's go to Bradley. Absolutely iconic stuff from Kymir. Just wonderful.

Sensational. All the way back home, his all the way back home quip makes her, I mean, shout out to OSHA too. She shuts off his power in his part of the ship. Really funny. When he's just like flipping switches and it's not working, great. Yeah, he would be like kind of a little bit of the doofy. Yeah.

I'm pretending to be chimera at the apothecary. Yeah. Broke through in a way that made me think he was like tapping in and that been, assuming that persona to like some little true colonel inside maybe of like how he used to be. That was kind of fun to think about. He used to be. He was how he was of the Jedi. Temple.

Okay. Sol's wandering around having an acid flashback to what happened to him on Brandocht, tapping to all of them. He's screaming May as if he's Jora looking for his calisi. Like it's all very emotionally out of control for Sol. But if you're like Mallory Rubin, we're wondering why Sol and Torben had to climb their asses up the mountain when they could have used the force. How much did you love that Chimer's like, what do you mean we have to take the elevator? I have the force.

How did you feel about it? I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was important. Thought it was necessary. Yeah. Thought it was a service to all of us. I guess, you know, he can levitate and fly, which Sol and Torbin can do. But they definitely can force jump because they are Jedi.

So, yeah. I love that he's like, he's like, I can't remember what exactly he says here. He's like, oh, or do I or is that what you think or whatever it is, he says. But it's like slightly echoey because he's already gone. It's great. So just goes back to that. goddamn broken bridge where so many confusing things happened and continues to be unfortunately because I do still have some affection for him the worst fucking Jedi that ever was because he

cannot sense that May is literally right there at the over the edge of the precipice. A hand comes up out of the chasm. It's a little ray-coded but also did you worry for a second that the hand belonged to mother coral? Not until I read this question in the outline. Felt a twisting of the gut. I would love to never see Coral again. Same, same.

That's one of my top notes for season two. No mother coral return, thank you. Okay. Great return of the Chanty, witchy stuff, though. I loved that. Okay. And then here we go. A fucking incredible lightsaber fight.

So good. So good. Kimer says, thank you for leading me to her. We make a great team. Do you feel like he's definitely talking about OSHA here instead of May? I have to assume given that he basically was like fuck off May mirror episodes prior. But also, like, I was rewatching the multiple times, the helmet scene at the beginning when he's processing what the vision that OSHA has.

Yeah. That I think those of us with any sort of media literacy were like, oh, she's seeing a vision of herself, force, joking soul to death, not her sister. Right? he didn't seem to process that as like the vision that she has in the helmet of someone who looks exactly like her forced choking soul to death he kind of seemed like he bought it into that that would be May I didn't read his facial expression to be like actually dumb dumb it's you you know what I mean because he's not like let's go to bread knock I can't wait to see you force choke this dude he's like I'm going you know so so you think OSHA like soul can't spot you know you're not the forehead tattoo accurately. No? The bangs often cover the tattoo. I think I actually, I think there are two valid interpretations of, wait, wait.

Here's why I definitely think, oh, I think at that point, which is mere hours before what happens, OSHA cannot conceive of a version of herself that would do that. And so I can see her like, seeing that and being like, well, it would never be me, so it's got to be May. You know what I mean? It's going to be May. All right, go ahead. Yeah.

I think there are two possibilities, right? Because at the end of that, we get to like, this is the future. You saw the future's not set. Obviously, two of the episodes were called destiny and choice. So that's been an area of the interest for the series. I think one of them, one of the possibilities is what you're saying, which is she sees herself doing this and doesn't realize that she sees herself doing it. I think the other one is that she possibly is seeing May. And this becomes a like, you set into motion a different.

series of things in seeking to avoid or change, you know, the old, self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Great stuff. We love to see it. Edifice you are with us in all of our pods this week. Really? I think that thank you for leading me to her. We Make a Great Team did feel like it was about OSHA and in a much broader sense than anything

about the physical proximity of where people are in this episode. Obviously, they travel there together. It's like leading me to her in terms of now this new. partnership that we will be able to forge because obviously that is his intention and desire. Desire is a big part of this as well. There is this prescient element to Kymir because, you know, he says, like, thanks for leaning me to her, make your regime. Then they like start doing some of the sickest, like, superfinding you've ever seen

your goddamn life. It's amazing. And then Soul says, I will destroy you if I must. And Kymir says, not if she gets you first. Again, I do think he's talking about OSHA, but it could be talking about Mae or either of them. they are the same person after all. But then later, when the Jedi arrive and, you know,

Sol's like, you'll pay for what you did. And he's like, they're not here for you. That's my Hamilton impression. He's like, they're not here for me, man. They're here for you. Like, how does he know that? How does he know that? That's not a pothole.

That's something I'm excited to know more about, you know? I think that this is like this, I love that moment. Me too. Now you pay for what you've done. Oh, they're not here for me. First of all, because the deliveries, like both of them, the performances are just so good. And there's the certainty. Like, soul is a character who is consumed by doubt, but there is a certainty that he almost, like, insists on convincing himself exists in terms of those.

Yeah, the possibility of the order that he has devoted his life to. And then for the stranger. the opposite is at play, and this feels connected to them what he'll say under the Bonta tree. You put your faith in the Jedi. After all this?

Still? Right? Which was a good note. A valuable thing to say out loud and an important question asked. Hashtag the Sith right. Put it on the merch. We've got a lot of like

X character was right. Mugs pop it up this week. So this feels like in part that he has some sort of like larger understanding and sense of how these particular events might play out, but also just these are people who are willing to discard their own

if it serves them, because that is his personal experience. That's what happened to him. So, yeah, I really liked that moment. And the duel is incredible, incredible. Did you have a favorite moment, a favorite move? In the duel for the combat. For Soul versus Kindier.

I think it's hard to pick. I really loved the chest kick. I thought that was sick. But I think my favorite actually was because the thing I loved most about the sole Chimerdoll as they moved from the hallway down into the courtyard was this seamless shifting from a like visceral savage ferocity in certain moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like knights with broadsords into this balletic, graceful,

harmonious, like, Dancing of the Dragons, right? Yeah. And so I think the moment that I loved most was one that fell a little bit more into the former camp, actually. It was when their blades are crossed and they're pushing into each other with every ounce of strength they both possess. To the extent that the blades almost looked like they were morphing and melding into each other, which not only was an incredibly evocative visual, but, It felt very thematically rich. What is light? What is dark?

What have you done with your darkness? We're about to see that. That was just like perfect. We're about to see that blue saber bleed, you know, like incredible. A very important moment in my life. I can't wait to get out of the way for you to talk about that. But for me, I think I have to pick, just for nostalgia sake, yeah. He does this falcon punch move, the leap punch move, which is the same move.

I mean, it's been used a million times, but it's the same move in the... Series finale, spoilers, the lightest of spoilers, so the series finale have lost. And the series finale have lost, Dr. Jack Shepard pulls that move right into a commercial break. And it's one of the funniest commercial breaks that's ever happened in all of television. He just a flying punch to the air into a commercial break. And then you, like, come back into it. And it's so funny. So I was just thinking about Dr. Jack Shepard, as I sometimes am.

Yeah. And I think to that ballad. point. There's the sort of like Wusha inspired wirework, crouching tiger. But there's also in Seoul, the way that soul both

it's not even sheathes. It's like hiltz and you know like hooks and unhooks the weapon. The flourish of his hand as he does that as he pulls into position is so, it reminds me a lot. I talk about this all the time, but it reminds me a lot of the way that Colin Farrell approached wand work

in fantastic beats. a movie that I don't like, but I love his, like, no one has ever does wand fighting better than Colin Farrell in that movie. And he just like took it to another level in terms of the flourishes. And I really feel like Li Jean-Jet did that

with Sol's sort of, like, the way that he treated his weapon. And in terms of constantly thinking about a season two, I'm like, I need someone, I mean, you know, Man Lisenberg, we were about to, we, we, very quickly after this get a Manless Denberg versus a Manless Denberg stunt double fight that looks

really good. Yeah. But I need someone... Yeah, the mirror movements. Yeah. But I need someone in season two on Li Zheng-Ji's cyber fighting level to match Mani Jacinto. Oh, oh, oh!

pronunciation, corner. I've been saying Mani Jacinto because that is how I've heard him say his name. And it is true that that is how he said his name in the past. I have video evidence of this. And we got several emails of people being like, you're mispronouncing his name. I'm like, I know I'm not because I have heard him say it with my own ears in front of me. He is now pronouncing his name, Annie Hacinto, which is the like, you know, way, more traditional way in which his name should be said.

In more recent interviews, he is saying Hesinto or Hesinto, and so it's like, I like that. He's like, guess what? I don't have to dump it down for the white people. It's like you can pronounce my name. So I apologize. I've been mispronouncing it. Anyway, I want someone on his saber fighting level in season two now that Li Zheng J is sadly off the board. So I won't miss soul.

Tremendously. Okay. The saber is broken. A lot of stuff is happening. We get that cool sort of like crystal eye view or whatever. And then kind of tries to play every play in the Sith handbook to get made to finish. the fight for him, right? So this is, this sort of feeds into the whole, like, he thought May

could maybe do this. He didn't know that it like had to be OSHA, right? Good May, feel your anger. This is a source of your pain. Strike him down and your journey will be complete. And then we get some virgins,

virgines twin clone lore. That is exactly what we suspected, but let's hear anything. Not before May just astonishingly, once again, is like, I devoted my whole life to fighting these people, but I'm going to put my faith in the Jedi High Council, the Senate, and the Republic. I can't.

I can't. It makes no sense, and so I refuse to engage. All right, Steve, let's hear this. You and OSHA are the same person. I don't know how your mother did it, but it has something to do with a virgins on this planet. How she did what? She created life, your lives. I believe she used the force to create you and the OSHA.

Do you have any idea what kind of power that is? In the history of the galaxy, very few have been that powerful. The audio changed because OSHA's entering the scene and he got over to her. Hand reaching down. And as has ever been the case, Saul is completely oblivious to her arrival. It does not sense that she's standing right from as May leads him handling into this like confession of I killed your mother. But to go back to, let's like underline this thing that you alluded to earlier, right?

In the history of the galaxy, very few have been that powerful. What do you want to say about this like calling out of how powerful Anasea or perhaps a Plagueist-assisted Anasea must have been to do this in the first place? It's so, okay, here, I'm like, on the one hand, it makes me wonder if the quarrels of the world are destined to come back into the story, which makes me nervous, honestly. I know. But that, like, real but ultimately small caveat aside, it feels like we have a lot to learn about that coven and their magic and their history. Like, how did, we know that they all felt like they were cast out by other aspects of society. pursued because of the perceptions from others of the nature of their thread usage, unnatural, is, I'm going to say, alone in possession of this unique power.

Is this an example of what the power of many literally means, what their ascension rituals and this connection? Like, remember, we see them all operating as a unit, as like a hive mind when Indara seemingly kills them all through their mental tether to. Kalnaka. So is the extent of their power because it is the power of many? Is it one individual person? I feel like we definitely have more to learn there. And then again, like we talked about earlier, is that is the might of that power now something that OSHA can channel? Like, how powerful is she? And you called out that, you know, Kamir says, it's not just that the Jedi or I think

very clear what he is saying. There's not just, you know, he's like, when they find out how powerful you are, it's not just, oh, they're going to see what happened to soul, they're going to know that you turn to the dark side, they don't like that, or we're going to have a problem. It's something unique is happening here in terms of what she is capable of doing or connected to. Like your mother. Like, they'll do you what they did to your mother, right? Yeah, and he obviously heard that virgins line.

He knows that this is something that the Jedi were there then investigating. He loves a virgins, so, yeah. I bet. All right. Let it leave, baby, here we are. As Soul continues to defend and justify what he did and claim his all protector. It's all really tough stuff from Soul in this episode. It's really, really tough.

Oshah stops. It's like a swift little, like, plunge into the dark side here, like a pretty rapid tumble for Oshah here. Proud Star Wars tradition. As she forced chokes him out. And I guess this is what it means to kill a Jedi without a weapon. He doesn't have one and she doesn't use one. She's holding on to the saber, but she's forced choking him. So once and for all, kill a Jedi without a weapon.

I've decided means the Jedi doesn't have a weapon. So they're defenseless. This is something that Kimer highlighted in episode four where he was like a Jedi would never kill someone. So it's like you're truly a dark cider. If you kill someone who is unarmed, that's something a Jedi would never do. And then you're also using the force for murder. you're not using a murder.

You're not using poison or a saber. You're forced choking someone to death. So. Believe forced, using the force choke instead of a saber or a knife was our very first guess. I think like, but it's been so confusing throughout, or at least for me.

I know. I know. I, so what I like about this is it kind of works in all directions, because while OSHA, you know, the other thing we talked about a lot was is the death falling to the dark side.

And like that's also happening here, right? So OSHA would be the first to say, as she does in this very episode, that she is not a Jedi. It's the old I am no Jedi. But that's a label someone else tells you has meaning. Like this was a path that she devoted her life to until she went to be a mechneck,

a detail that feels extremely long ago and genuinely untethered to the rest of the story, wild stuff. And so, like, this is also the death of OSHA as a Jedi. And the weapon, in that sense, would be the betrayal. So it's happening in both directions. I thought that part of it was effective. Something we had predicted that this might happen, that OSHA would be the one to kill Saul and this idea of the weapon is her.

she is the weapon in terms of like corrupt the acolyte the acolyte kills the dream right corrupt the acolyte because soul as he dies here yeah and he's like it's okay i love you um all i did everything because i love yeah that was sad um that was sad that he started to choke to death as he was saying i love you yes but he's like but he's still in his delusion of like he's like he's still in his delusion of like His motivation. He never sees the light of what, of that, what he did was, like, how wrong what he did was. Yeah, I was protecting you. It was the right thing to do. My God.

But it would have sent you away. But there is, like, a sense that he's not fighting back as hard as he might have. Yeah, he's succumbing. Totally. He's succumbing because it is as devastating as anything else to see this girl that he cared for that he was supposed to train and, and keep safe. fall to the dark side. And so in that way, the Ackleike Kills the Dream. And we fulfilled our promise from episode one.

I liked this. I loved the... We see the Khyber changing colors as she's doing this, which was so cool. Really good. And then she, you know, she unsheathed the blue blade and we see it bleed red in front of our very eyes. Mallory Robay, tell me, take me to Khyber bleeding corner, if you would. I really loved this. Getting to see what this looks like in live action was just an incredibly exciting thing for Star Wars fans.

And, you know, we've gotten to glimpse the ritual and learn more about the nature of, like, bleeding the crystal. Elsewhere in the canon, like, it's a pretty big part of, we've talked actually elsewhere in the Ackleit run about the Darth Vader comic run. And it's a big part of that in the earlier issues, which we've also mentioned. Seeing it happen in live action, I think the thing that, you know, and I should say, like, we also have talked about this a lot, mostly in the Asoka pods, but we've also gotten the opposite, like in the Asoka novel, we get to see her purify the previously bled crystals from the Sixth Brother. So this is always interesting because it tells us a lot about, like, the mythology and the magic and the mysticism of the force and what the connection between an individual Jedi or Sith and their power is and how that manifests.

Like one of the things about the bleeding or purifying of a crystal in particular that's so interesting and why I thought this was so cool to see is like the idea of bleeding a crystal, you're pouring all of the things that we always hear about when we talk about paths to the dark side. Hate anger. Anger. It's corruption. Like you are pouring that part of you into. this physical thing and changing it, just as you yourself have changed, right? It is a representation of the way that your very being,

your soul, your heart, your mind has altered. OSHA didn't sit, grab that saber and sit down and say, this is a decision I have made actively about my life. And now I will engage in the ritual of bleeding this crystal. It happened much like what we saw at the beginning of the episode

with the, onusia-esque, mental penetration, it was a manifestation and an exhibition of her power that she could not control. And in that way, I thought it actually heightened

our understanding of not only that connection between the thing in your hand and the thing inside of you, but the extent of what was happening to her. There was no need to deliberately say, I do this thing now. It was uncontainable.

And I loved that. And then she looked like, the way they're all looking at the blade. I know. It's so good. And the way that she is looking down and it's like, well, this is who I am now. And she, and from there on, she just purely accepts it. She's just sort of like, well.

Right. It was like, again, it was something undeniable to see it that she almost felt like she couldn't fight back against. And there was something I thought really, like, tragic about that, but dramatically very compelling. It's like, but that's the Sith point of view. I am, I should be like, oh, no, but I'm like, how fun. Here we go.

She's a Sith now. That's kind of what I want. Yeah. And like, the other thing, the last thing I want to say on that is just like, you're bleeding someone else's crystal, right? That's standard. For her to bleed soul's crystal. And the idea that in season two, yeah, the idea that in season two,

she'll be carrying souls bled saber that she bled as she was killing him. Every time she's training, every time they're sparring, every time they're out on a mission fighting and doing something, she will hold in her hand a reminder of who she has become the power that she possesses, what she is capable of, but also what she did, what she lost, what she left behind. To go back to this idea of like it was, it wasn't a sit down ritual, it was sort of a accidental or, or the idea, thematically, the idea is so rich and so good. But also this idea that like she possesses a power, that she could just bleed a Khyber. without sort of focusing her energy on it.

It's just her emotions are so big that she can just bleed to Kyber because she's holding it while she's doing a murder. And it's also like it also feels connected to what Kymer keeps saying about like you need a teacher. Like you need training. I think the question you raised earlier of will that be mutual and also like how successfully can you train somebody who is maybe more powerful than you? Oh, that was the other thing that I really liked about the soul.

chimera fight, by the way, was just, we saw chimera like dispense with ease of entire fellowship of red shirts and soul was beating. Shit at the force, good at saber forms. So, and also the way that the saber is used then

throughout the rest of the episode of the two of them wrapping their hands around it in two distinct moments. Yeah. This is a path forward for us together, share. Um, yada yada, Vern is exactly who we thought she was. Baz and Mog have a very sweet little moment.

You're alive. Have fun. Oh, great. The way she narrows her eyes and she says, you're alive. And then he almost looked, it's not even his face. I rewatch this a bunch of times to sort of identify what felt like fearful in him. Yeah. The haste was.

which he puts the helmet back on to block himself from Vern's perception. But it's almost like, it almost looked boyish to me. It looked very young. This sort of just sort of like hasty hiding from his former master. Yeah. He became the pupil again, the boy again in that moment. Bern just out and out says, my pupil, so we know she's talking about him. We all know this is true.

Mani for some reason is still playing coy in the New York Times interview. But like, yes, this is, as we suspected, the lash marks on his back. exactly match her lightsaber whip. We don't know the circumstances of this. We might find we are on Vern's side in that moment, probably, possibly. Who's to say? But for the moment, we can think. It feels impossible to me.

It feels tough. It could be on Vern side instead of chimeras of any point. But that's the sit point of view. But for the time being, I choose to imagine just the identical sort of like Luke Kylo moment where it's just sort of like someone reacts to something in a way they don't understand. So you mentioned this earlier, the possibility. that the year alive could be just surprised because maybe she would have thought his natural

lifespan. Hers is quite long as we've talked about. Maybe she was like, wait, well, you're not dead yet. I thought when I cast you out of the order and accidentally or purposely slashed your back open that a few years later or a couple decades later, however long you'd die. Do you think, though, that this is, do you think it's that? Or do you think this was? I thought I killed you.

I thought I killed you. Oh, yeah. I'm of two minds about it. Like, my first reading was I thought I killed you. And then I started thinking about the time. timeline things that we know, Vern is very old. Looks great. Green, don't crack, but she's very old.

And so how long ago was Kyme or her pupil, we don't know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It gave me a, because obviously the whipping and anything that happened, like, that would already be horrible. But this did give me a like, oh, holy shit, did she think she murdered him? Well, like how murdery is a murdery?

Like whip his back and oops, he fell over a cliff. You know what I mean? Soul thought he murdered May. Maybe she had the high ground and then someone fell into lava. Who can say? Yeah. Who can say? I thought the other thing that I really liked about the haste with which she put the cortosis helmet of it not available until 2025 and already sold out.

Astonishing stuff onto his head. It just pains me is it reinforced, I think, something that we had already started speculating about when we began to think that she was his former master, which is he built that for her. Not just, oh, I don't want the Jedi more broadly. Like that person, my former master, and we had heard the way that he had spoken before about what that relationship meant and symbolized and could be

and then how broken you would be if that very thing had crumbled in front of you, that person had failed you and they thought you had failed them. So the idea. that she saw something, she specifically saw something in him that scared her, that horrified her. But again. But again. He had to be cast out.

And he's like, I can't let that happen again with her or anyone. Again. And that's on the self-fulfilling prophecy front is like, saw something horrible in his future. So she, thus she cast him out and in casting him out. Yeah. That's how he becomes a stranger. Yep. Hopefully.

Could work, Vern. Thanks. He, no, I won't finish that sentence. Okay. He seems to abandon the girls in this moment, right? Like he's sort of like, they decide to leave. He's still lurking and lingering because later he's snooping around the crime scene as Vern is making her, you know, plant a frame soul. But I kind of like this idea that he just sort of like, oh shit, burns here.

And it's just sort of like, I got to disappear. Yeah. We find out how May survive the bridgefall. It doesn't really matter. Does it? No, it doesn't. It matters 0%. She just crawled out somewhere or another.

We do get this intriguing little morsel about their twin rhyme, right? You're with me. I'm with you. Who taught us that rhyme? I thought you made it up. Is this a spell? Is this a powerful, important spell? Will it help unlock May's memory in a future season or cause the girls to smoke monster into each other?

or like, right, it feels like a spell. Like that's... Dude, I really thought you were going to be right about your theory last week of the absorption. Like, it really seemed in bounds for a lot of this episode. When souls like, they're the same person, I was like, what if I'm right? And then it wasn't. And I was like, I shouldn't have been right, though. They shouldn't have done that.

So I'm glad they didn't. Yeah, it did. The point pointing our attention to, like, them not knowing where this came from and what the origin of it was feels connected to this larger, like, what were they created for, you know, and what was the intent behind that? You know, the only person you could tell us, for sure. Coral, come on back in. Coral, we need you. We see now that we need you.

We never needed you more, Coral. But, yeah, it felt like there was, oh, this is like a, almost like a ritual, a trigger and a ritual or something that, like, just haven't quite hit that moment of activation. We've already... I'm... I know that Oshund tells May that she'll find her. I'm... What if she didn't?

What if she didn't? Okay, listen, Nate... I'm just throwing that out there. What if she didn't? May could be the Masari of season two. I love Masari at House of the Dragon this season. And, like, she was a real problem for me in season one. So what if May becomes, like, a great character in season two?

But also, I take your note. Okay. Rebellions are built on hope, Mallory. Come on. We've already said that we find a lot of this confounding and confusing. A lot of just like big decisions are made without much discussion at all. It seems very odd and bizarre. I just didn't get it at all.

This was really rough. I really rough. At least, okay, if we didn't get the twins smoke monstering into each other, at least someone got their memory wiped, which is something I felt so certain had to happen. So that's great. And I also, I liked the use of the rhyme as like an indignant. that her memory was gone. I thought that was like a clever little bit of, of, yeah.

Yeah. I know I think we could have used May then like as she can't complete the line. And it's like, embrained with the person she no longer recognizes. It's just maybe a moment where she's like, who the fuck are you? Why are you hugging me? I don't know you. Why do you look like me?

Here's my, I was happy that we got the mind wipe. I felt thrilled for you. You've been on this corner since day one. Here's my only note. eliminating huge the two most consequential figures in a person's life two of the three we'll put mother on a say in in the top three as well two of the three most important figures for coral coral the nomin the gut i i just think if you're eliminating your your your master uh who trained

you and you have clearly spent a lot of time with possibly even like because she doesn't what she's talking to Vern later. Vern's like your last memory is from when you were eight. Because Kimer says, I'm going to erase me and I'm going to erase OSHA. So I was like, wait. Yeah. Did he meet her when she was eight? Was he with her the entire time?

And so that meant like all that time was gone. There were, there were guarding Henry and her. And listen, regarding Henry. What a great movie. Will anybody hang a painting of a ritz cracker box in season two? Will they attempt to make one big cookie? Inquiring minds. want to know, need to know.

But my only don't have a mind wipe is I do think it should, if you're erasing that much of someone's life, it should take longer than one hand swipe and longer than a force joke. Well, he says, I can attempt to wipe her memory. Yeah. And the way he said it was uncertain. I think he did a, not a perfect job. That's what I think. Oh, boy.

So we don't want to talk about all the parts of this that made no sense. We're just going to, we don't need to. Why dwell? Why dwell? Why do well? go and I will train with you. Are you sure? Why dwell?

We agree. It doesn't make any sense. There's no point. I'm not trying to wipe it like there are major parts of this episode that are bad and make no sense. I'm not trying to like. What do you want, OSHA? I care now. Definitely.

And we understand why I care now. Suddenly. All right. Let's go to Corazon. Okay. If we must. It's not the crimes in cover up. As we already mentioned, Vern is at least compassionate and apologetic.

Wait. What? Wait. What I miss. Wait. One thing. What? We cannot leave today without observing.

The true crime? OSHA didn't take PIP. May needs PIP. May needs PIP more than ever before. Does she I remember PIP? Well, now, now that have both amnesia of friends together. That is so grim. Okay, so you think that OSHA, like, let me keep PIP as.

Yeah. Now, I'll take your, I'll take your hot master, your hot sleepless master. Here, you can have my little droid. I think it's a fair trade. Maybe it would have been, maybe it would have been cruel actually for OSHA to keep Pip because Pip didn't remember her or recognize her and squirted her in the face. That was a tough moment. That was really funny. Pip's like, I got a new friend now.

All right. Back to Corazon. Vern gives a speech in Mon Mothma cosplay. Frankly, I'm offended by her. pretending to be the Mon. Ray and Chancellor Drellick, great character, seems a bit skeptical.

And the center is still very much in favor of a floor review. Something to look forward to in season two. But you don't think Vern convinced that with either. There's nothing to review. He's dead. He killed himself. I burned him. Don't look into it.

He definitely killed himself. And then I burnt the body and all the evidence. Don't worry about it. Horrible stuff from Vern here. Let's listen to Vern. Yes, shall we? Soul made a mistake. A mistake he lived with for so long it twisted his mind.

He justified every selfish step with the love he had for your sister. My sister? Does the name OSHA mean anything? You've been through so much. The Jedi have failed you. I am going to make this right. But I need your help. with wood

I need you to help me find someone who my pupil of mine before he turned to evil we did get an email from Scott the full email is just my pupil he was on Prendock researching the force with my mother right before she died

oh my god Dakota Johnson you will always be with us all right remarkable stuff anything you want to say I mean like yeah it's Vern in quite insidious what's happening here with Vern And which is, okay, I said I wasn't going to do this. I'm going to do this in like a gentle way as gentle way as possible.

We got an email from a listener who said we were incorrect in our assumptions of what Vern would do because Vern is a beloved High Republic character and they wouldn't have this beloved High Republic character who's in the middle of her arc in the publishing world revealed to be, you know, as to do the terrible things that she does cure. in framing Saul, et cetera. And potentially killing her people and all this or stuff. And guess what they did. They did do that.

We were correct about that. But I think that is a fascinating thing to do. Like, you know, Leslie is given this high-revubic character to play with. And she's like, I would like to take this character who you are propping up as heroic and half her do these shitty things. And Lucasfilm, to the question of like, can Lucasfilm change? Lucasolm says, okay. Do it.

I know Fern's not like a high-stakes, high-republic character. It's not like we're doing this with, you know, people's complained about the less Jedi Luke Skywalker or something like that. Like, it's not a Luke Skywalker that we're sort of saying, like, hey, what if he became a urban on an island somewhere? But like I...

Loved it. I also loved it. But also, like, I think that's cool. They're like, yeah. Yeah. This person we're meeting who's heroic in the publishing can do this, for this, like, a bureaucracy. or fear or whatever you want to call it

can do the shitty thing in the future. Yeah. I agree. I think this is interesting. I'm fascinated to see how the show reconciles what Vern does here with the Yoda element coming into play at the end because before we see Yoda, like just in real

real time watching this public theater, right? Because we get that like really harrowing little cut to soul. I'm sorry, my friend. And obviously we know that what she's saying to the Senate to May is not true. The way that it was cut was just, you know, it makes our heart clench. It was great. This betrayal. Really good. So it's not just that she's blaming soul. She is obscuring the rise of the Sith. Yep. Like she has been saying for episodes, pinging that tip the scale.

Tip the scale's larger plan. And she knows that the people who she says turned to evil, very a New Hope-esque phrasing. And she's not telling them that because it, and I think what we're meant to understand is that the way she's justifying this to herself is like, if they start investigating us and try to control us, we won't be able to then try to fight this. And that's the kind of hubris

that is so interesting for us to watch. So what I really loved was when we go back to Vern and May and Vern says soul made a mistake. A mistake he lived with for so long it twisted his mind. He justified every selfish step

with the love he had for your sister. She's talking about him, but also about herself. Not the love for your sister apart, but like, how do you justify the things that you will do? And what was her original mistake? Was it casting out? With her people. She's talking about herself, but she's like, but also what I love about that is what she's saying about soul is true.

Absolutely. Yeah. And then, but that makes it more delicious that, like, it is true. She can see how wrong it goes. She is in a place where she is, like, capitalizing on that horror and that tragedy. And then she is undergoing and experiencing an exhibiting. and exhibiting a version of that and either can't clock it

or doesn't care because she thinks she's going to be capable, maybe the only person capable of like fixing it and then we end up having, I don't know if you hurt, but somehow Palpatine or darned.

So there's a lot of blood on Vern's hands. Listen, a lot of blood. And this is why... But then does she tell Yoda? That's like the complexity here. What? She cannot possibly tell Yoda about the Sith.

Like cannot... This is just why that, but this is why him being there is just... Well, I don't like it. Just the same way I don't like Vader showing up in a rogue one. Like, I just don't like it. Not a take we share. I understand.

I don't like it. So then what is she? I do want to, I do. Well, again, I don't know. I don't know. It seems like Yoda is only here to get people excited to talk about Darth Lagas and Yoda and Jenup excitement for season two. And the real lure for season two is obviously Menehasinto's arms.

Like obviously, like clearly. So like, but it seems like bait. And I just kind of, I just will have to wait and see. I don't want to get trapped in that whole like, how can the cis possibly hear when we heard in the prequels that no one knew about the cis for this mate? Like, and then they like answered all of that at this. So like, I don't, I'm not saying you were doing that. I'm just saying like, I don't, I don't want to get trapped in this whole like,

I trust that Leslie's not going to introduce something. Unlike fucking Obi-1 meeting Leah when she's a child. I trust that Leslie's not going to throw something in there that is going to absolutely, you know, undo canon or war. Yeah, I'm confident. I am confident in that as well,

ultimately. But it feels like the placement of it just leaves open like a now very long period of time of like fear and trepidation that that could happen. And like, I don't know. It's a bummer.

To what you were saying, earlier, like, welcome to the enough of the fucking Star Wars nostalgia cameos. I think, like, I, as you know, I do genuinely, like, love those. Like, when

when Luke showed up at the end of Mando, I loved it, when Cadbean showed up, I loved it. When we see what Canaan's experience was during Order 66, because, like, all of those moments heightened to the thing we were already watching and filled in something about like a timeline

for a crucial figure. When it's just like, oh my God, you're going to see the back of Yoda's head and like get really hyped because it's Yoda. I just think sometimes... But we actually maybe risk a like confounding element entering the brew. Then it doesn't work as well for me.

Leah being in the other one show is just like beyond the pale. It's like I don't... Remember when they talked about OB2 though? That was great. All right. Great stuff. A very romantic ending, as we've already discussed. We've already talked about this.

They held hands over Sol's Blade, lightsaber. I loved it. We could get some sex scenes in season, too? Hold, pause. I'm going to come back to that. Eat your heart out, Mr. Darcy. We had a lot of emails from fans of the Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice

in which famously Matthew McFedon's Mr. Darcy flexes his hand in ecstasy having helped Lizzie into the carriage and this has just become this like moment for people who love that shit. Shout out, I'm a Colin Firth loyalist, so it could be me. But yeah, gentle grazes of hands can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. This is what Leslie says about plague is here, not using plague is here at the end, right? And to your point about this idea of Rogue One and doomed, right?

Even though Ocean the Stranger are standing there sort of looking out at the sunset, ready to conquer the world, The tragedy is we know they don't. We know there can only be two. We know Plague is there. We know that these two are doomed in some way. So to me, it's a bittersweet tragedy. This is foreboding ending. That's because I know about the Sith lineage and all these other things.

Whereas I think a different subset of the audience could be like, they're married. Oh, man. Our listener, Ryan, to your sex question, our listener Ryan sent us a little bit of fanfic. You have my attention. Title, I'm not reading the fanfic, I'm just reading the intro and then sort of like the premise. The title is Darth Plagis would very much like to be excluded from this narrative. Summary. The tale of the long-suffering Darth Plagis who has to babysit some very horny kids in his old age.

Notes. Everyone making jokes about Darth Plagis being traumatized by the Oshamir nonstop fucking. I hear you when I offer my small tribute. So thank you to Ryan. and thank you to the AO3 user, The Fudge. She wrote this. I haven't read it. I just read the premise,

and I thought that was really funny. But yes, do you think there will be, much as I said with the Bala and Jace on Dragonstone, should there be more fucking on this island? And should we get to see it in season two? I'd say so. I mean, there's a hot tub in the cave.

Come on. The Sith, the State of the Sis in Season 2, this is what Leslie says to Indy Wire. They're not running the First Order. They're not running the Empire. They're not the Chancellor of the Senate. They're hiding out. The Sith in this time are fighting for survival. So, season two.

Our listener Deborah suggests, just Kyrie and OSHA hotly roaming the galaxy is sexy gray force users fighting both Jedi and Sith, like a combination of Kung Fu and the Avengers. Do you approve, Mallory? It sounds great. I don't know if Chimer seems interested in being a gray force user. But that's the thing is like, Leslie has been very clear where she's like, I'm not trying to do the Kylo and Ray, I can fix him storyline. That's not what I'm trying to do. And I agree.

I don't want that. I don't want the idea is Osh is pulling Chimer to the light. But I like this idea because maybe they can survive this. like if they extricate themselves from the Sith and just do their own thing that is more gray-sided than it is dark-sided, but does allow for that freedom, which is high on a chimeras list, to-do list and passion and emotion, but you don't have to be tied up with all the like Sithy shit. And you, you know what I mean? Like, okay, I've fallen into that trap, I don't I.

It's something I do. I understand. This is our listener, Rachel wrote. This is the last email I'm going to read. I wish we had more exploration of the light side of the force that is separate from the Jedi, who, after all, are child kidnapping space cops. An exploration that relishes in our humanity that doesn't separate children from their families in the name of non-attachment that values desire and joy as much as it values helping others

grow and thrive. I'm glad the acolyte has shown some of the problems of the Jedi, especially how impossible it is for a person to really impartially interpret the force, but it hasn't satisfied my desire for something better. While I don't really like Freud or his theories, I do think they're helpful when thinking about Star Wars. In many ways, the Sith are what Freud calls the id. Pure desire for sex, power, violence, death. The Jedi and the other hand are the super ego, moral, bureaucratic, rules following. Where is the depiction of the ego balancing the two? Can a person just be a good person in the

Star Wars universe? Interesting. I mean, I do think to the good person point, I guess that's more like subjective, but I do think we've gotten dotted across the canon some, some portrayals of Grey Jedi. And their characters we love, like, Black on, is a shared favorite because he, soul. Certainly, I think, fits that that mold. We see how that goes wrong for him. Both of them. That's the problem is like, I don't know that it's been presented as like, this is a thing

you can be and survive, you know? This was my lament when we saw where a couple of pods ago, like when we saw where this was trending for soul. I'm like, ah, I really wanted the guy who was like pounding the table because he can't control his emotion to like win. That would have been really, I think, subversive in a Star Wars story and a really cool. A character like Ryle Avaros, who was Duku's former apprentice who I've talked about before and Ben has talked about before and chatting a bit about the great Claudia

Greybook mastered apprentice. like he's a very gray Jedi. Loves to fuck. Like there are characters. I think Lindberg mentioned maybe when he came on to do some of the High Republic previewing that like there are a lot of characters in the High Republic who are having sex. Yeah. Yeah.

So. The High Republic wasn't much for your time. That we are tightening the grip of bureaucracy and rules and constrictions on the Jedi as we move into their doom. Their ends. And that's an interesting thing to track. I guess here's what I'll say. here's a fond wish for season two. I'm going to really try to avoid my tendency of like trying to think of dark ciders as people

that I can redeem and say, what if instead it's more like Dexter where it's like the serial killer who's killing serial killers for you? And I'm not here to say Dexter's a good guy because he's not. But he's also like, you know, fighting some things. And maybe that's fighting the bureaucracy of the Jedi, which, you know, is worth. battling. I do think the moment where the stranger was like, well, you would call me a Sith. Right. Exactly. Feels very intentional. I just want those kids to get a, they're not kids. They're adults. And he's very old. But I want those crazy kids to get away from Plagueis. That's the point.

Like mostly I just don't want them anywhere near Plagueis. Leslie has just outright said they're doomed. And I'm like, but maybe they can go. But like doomed eventually. We're all doomed eventually. Maybe they can go to the outer, outer, outer rim and just be, you know, evil but in a fun way. I don't know. Anything else you want to say about the accolite? I think we, I mean, I think we really established that we're like this season had a lot of problems with some very, very strong, some higher highs than a lot of.

lot of the other Star Wars TV that we've gotten have had. Like, I walked out of this with, like, it's not just about Chimer's arms. It's about this figure and what he represents in the world of Star Wars that we haven't gotten to spend as much time with. It's about the potential for the future, potential for this firmly anchored Sith point of view that we were sort of promised. And these big ideas that they have in their mind. And if we could just sort of, you know, trim around the things.

that aren't working and never bring more mother coral back into the conversation, then like, I do. It's the NFI for Coral, not fucking invited. Sorry, Coral. Sorry, Coral. Yeah, I'm with you, man. This is like, the cave is vast, and there's a rich cortosis vein right there. And we see it, and we know how potent it is.

And hopefully in season two, we can mine it. Can't wait. All right. Well, that does it for our coverage of the Acolytes. You had to do it. I love you. Perfect. I was like, I was actually ready for you to do it because you had like rolled over some.

I was ready for you to do it like 20 times. But you hit it right when you needed to and it was beautiful. I'm banking them. That's how that's my show phase. Oh, for season two. Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you Mallory Ribbon.

You are forever, I would forever grasp a lightsaber with you and stare off into the sunset. Thank you to Steve Allman for, you know, being in a cave somewhere behind as creepily snooping around the corner and making sure we sound great. Thank you to our Junta Rangel pal for all, everything he's doing constantly. It's just I would shudder to think of his to-do list because he's constantly texting me. He's like, what about this other thing? And I know that I'm only one of a million people that he is wrangling at any given time.

So thank you to our juna. Thank you to. It was his birthday yesterday, Jomey at Dinner on on the social work for this. Get Better John Richter. We'll see you all for Talk to Thrones on Sunday night. Bye.