House of R - The 'Doctor Who' Rewatch (Part 5): The Twelfth Doctor

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

The Time Lord has come in the form of Peter Capaldi, so Joanna and Mal are here to dive deep into the era of the twelfth Doctor. They cover Seasons 8 through 10 of the beloved BBC series in Part 5 of their 'Doctor Who' Viewing Guide (8:43). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Ben Lindbergh. And Jessica Clemens. And we are the hosts of Buttonmash, the ringers video game podcast on the ringerverse feed. We are in the midst of the biggest blockbuster gaming month either of us can recall. We're talking about Spider-Man 2, Super Mario Bros, Alan Wake, Five Nights of Freddy's, Assassin's Creed Mirage. We will have our hands full. You can have your ears full with us talking about these wonderful video games. On the ringerverse feed, weekly throughout this month, on Spotify or wherever you get your

podcasts. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. So why do you keep calling himself Doctor Who? Because I'm pretending to be him, because that's the whole point of this ridiculous exercise. It's not an exercise, it's a test. Are you eating? No. Yeah, well, don't test me eating crisps.

Yeah, but he's called The Doctor, said. He says, I'm the doctor and they say Doctor Who. See, I'm cutting to the chase, baby, I'm streamlining, I'm saving us actual minutes. Yeah, okay, whatever. Also, it's his real name. It's what? To House of R, or House of Who? If you prefer, I'm Joanna Robinson, join me today.

Don't call her a companion. Don't call her my plus one. Don't call her comic relief or exposition. She is the one, the only. Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory, how you doing? Joe, never be cruel. Never be cowardly.

And never, ever eat pears. Pears! I will never know where the 12th Doctor falls on the Apple Wars. We just know that he is anti-peer. Prominent role for red apples. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Granted, it used as detonation devices, but even so. And I would just like to say, I love pears. Pears are delicious. Wonderful. A poached pear. Oh, no. Spiced pear. Pear sorbet.

Just, oh, yeah. Ooh, that's good. Or just, like, fresh. Give it to me raw and wriggly. All right. We are here to talk about Doctor Who. This is our Peter Capaldi 12th Doctor episode. Originally in our plan for this Doctor Who rewatch in advance of the 60th anniversary specials

is we were going to try to sort of jam the Capaldian Whitaker runs into one. episode of coverage and the Capaldi folks made their displeasure known. So there is a loud and passionate fan base for Peter Capaldi. And then the Whitaker fans weighed in as well. And so we are doing standalone episodes for Peter Capaldi, standalone episodes for Jody Whitaker. Let me just bring you in on the plan for everything that's going on. Because as of like three days ago, we did not know when the 60th anniversary specials were airing. And had taken to texting each other and our beloved producer Arjuna, not only daily, but like multiple text exchanges per day. Like trying to guess. When will we guess the dates? What clues are there?

Neck deep in the Reddit boards trying to see if any like, like Redditors had leaked anything. Nothing. And then we finally got an announcement. So we finally know. And actually, genuinely ideal situation for us. Couldn't possibly be better based on all of our plans, etc. The first Doctor Who's 60th anniversary special is airing November 25th. That's a Saturday. We will be covering that episode on Monday, November 27th. And then going forward for the next three weeks, Monday is going to be Who Day for us on House of Our.

because there are three anniversary specials, December 2nd and December 9th are the next two. We will be covering those on the following Mondays, December 4th, December 11th. So three weeks of Humania and Hulmst among us wouldn't want that. So we're thrilled for that. And that means we have some time between now and a month from now to check in on the Whitaker era.

It is our plan to do that mid-November. who plans shift all the time. It's a time you win me show. Yeah. And our plans to binge three seasons of television sometimes, you know, push these things around. But that is our plan is to get to Whitaker mid-November sometime so that we will be fully ready. Yes. For the 60th anniversary.

We can do it. Wrap the rewatch pre-holiday, come out of the holiday with the specials. Keep it going. I know we can. I'm just like, this is astounding that we're almost here. because we've been doing this for all year. So, here we are. It really started to hit me wrapping the Capaldi run.

Really started to hit me, like, how much we have now watched together, how much I have now seen for the first time, but also how near we are till the end. You know, nothing's sad till it's over than everything is, as the doctor would say. I'm not strumming a guitar as I share those pearls. But you know how it hits me when something's a thing. about to end Joe. I'm getting there. The road goes ever on with Doctor Who is the point. And that's the joy. That's the joy. And I'm already like really looking forward to rewatching some of what I've already only now just barely finished consuming for the first time. But that's the beauty of falling in love. Oh, I love that. We had a really good time with Capaldi. We're going to talk about the highs and the lows and all of that. But like overall, we come, we came out very high on Capaldi himself as the doctor. And that's what really matters. I think at the end of the day. Before we get into all of that, quick programming reminders, shows through reminders, et cetera, et cetera, right?

Okay. Over the ring ofverse, we are, speaking of time, you know what I'me, in the very midst of Loki season. So the Loki episode four is the reaction is already up for you. Jess will have a splash page Loki situation, I think coming up on Saturday, right? I believe that that is the case. Button MASH next week is doing Alan Wake 2.

I have no idea what that is. And Five Night of Fridays, which I do know what that is. So that is what Button Mashes up to. We will also be doing our live show at the Terragram Ballroom. That is sold out. We have tickets. We will see you there. And the next week is also Invincible coverage from both the Midnight Boys and House of R.

So Invincible Season 2, Episode 1 is dropping next week. So along with, of course, more Loki coverage, et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot going on. All right. How can people make sure they keep on top of that? Most crucially, Alan Wake, too, which I have heard is better than Alex. I don't know what Alan Wake is. I'm excited to learn.

It's going to be a classic button mash episode where Jess is in her element, horror. And Ben is hiding under a blanket, quivering and terror. So that's one of my favorite dynamics on the show. Check it out. And if you haven't caught up on the button mash episodes on Spidey 2, and Mario Wonder, they are there for you. It has been an active stretch in the gaming sphere. How can you follow that?

How can you follow everything else that Joe just ran through? I'd suggest following the pods. Follow this podcast that you're listening to right now. House of Our new feed, we're here twice a week. Give us those five stars. Please give us those five stars. We love them. Follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

Follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Also, follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. The ringerverse is on Instagram. The ringerverse is on TikTok. The ringerverse is on Twitter. We're there. And if you have thoughts, if you have thoughts on Dr. Who, if you have thoughts on pears, pear, or otherwise, if you have thoughts on anything else, send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Genuinely. So blind. Great stuff. All right. Speaking great stuff, let's get into the good stuff with our Doctor Who Overlook. I love that sound cue. It's so mellow. Carlos on the soundboard today, just crushing it. I sent him like 12 Doctor Who clips this morning and he's just like, yeah, I got it. No worry. I'm a pro. I'll play them all for you. Pro is pro, Carlos. All right. So we are going to do, we usually do, which is just like ask some of the big, broad questions about doctors and companions and showrunners before we get into sort of like our mini episode, not deep dive, shallow dives, little, little splishy splashes into the ponds of these. Sor and buy in our TARDIS. No, now I'm scared of splashing into ponds and puddles after some of the bot points and that.

And also Amy, Amy Pondon. be there. That's right. Of course. But Heather is a benign figure, as we know, at the end of the day here. A lot of jump scares until that clarity, though. Yeah, it's an upsetting character design. And then you're like, oh, she just wants. Just wants love. Friendship. Okay. Quick chicken on the Moffat era. So now you have seen two different actors play the doctor under Russell T. Davies and two different actors play the doctor

under Stephen Moffin. And I think that it's really informative to see a showrunner over multiple actors because then you get an even better sense of what it is that the showrunner themselves are bringing to the table. So do you have a better sense at this point of like the shape of what Moffat is interested in when he's telling a who story?

I was thinking about a lot of what we discussed on this front during the last pod when we were talking about Matt Smith. and 11 and Amy and Rory and, you know, a little bit of Clara that we mostly put a pin in her until this pod, because this is her, the larger stretch of her run. And, you know, there were so many things in those Matt Smith seasons that I loved and that felt like directly ported from Moffitt's essence. And, you know, as we discussed last time, you're kind of in a push-pull, like, police system war inside of episodes or arcs or seasons or an entire doctor's. run with how compelling that can be

and then how you can sometimes feel like you're getting lost in the ever-expanding mythology. And that, I thought that felt more carefully calibrated in the Kapaldi run. Like I, you know, you speak

quite brilliantly, not just about who, but about other stories. You talk about this with the MCU about like how the most lasting and successful franchises can adjust on the fly to things that are not working. And I, you're such a, uh, a hoos scholar. I'm curious to like learn more from you about this. And if that felt like something that was maybe actively

at play here, I will say as context for that, though, that I thought the first, see, the first season of the Cabaldi won't run midway through, I started to get into it. It was the hardest acclamation I've had yet to a new run and to a new doctor. But spoiler, by the end, and well before the end, I was just absolutely smitten and like utterly captivated by Capaldi as 12. And by Bill, I can't wait to talk about Bill with you. I know Bill's favorite of yours. Capaldi like gripped me in a way that I was not anticipating. And a lot of that is a credit to Capaldi and the performance as 12 and the way that it evolved over time in some surprising ways, but ways that ultimately I think were to the benefit of the character and the series.

and it's interesting to think about how that aligns with maybe Moffat figuring out how to use his muses, how to deploy them inside of the story he wants to tell. Moffat, I think when you think about various showrunners or filmmakers, some seem like they're quite reactive. Like I would say, in terms of franchises, we talk about the MCU being like flexible, but not necessarily like reactive to criticism. whereas, like, Lucasfilm is highly reactive to criticism. And I would say I think Stephen Moffitt is...

Somehow, Palpatine returned? Somehow. I think Stephen Moffat is highly reactive to criticism. And there was such an interesting thing going on in the Who fandom right around this time, to my memory, which is, like, outright hostility towards Stephen Moffat as part of everything that was in the mix. It was really interesting time. I was frustrated with him personally. But as we'll get into a little bit later, there was this huge.

Capaldi came in under slightly unfair circumstances because there just been this building conversation of like, all right, we've had all these like charming, wonderful white men playing the doctor. Like, can we get a woman? Can we get a person of color? Like what's going on if a time word can look like anything? why can't it look like someone who's not a white guy? Stephen Moffat, as we'll talk about a little bit later, didn't always have the greatest responses to that question. And I remember I was there, you know, remember we've talked about like watching blocks of ice melt for Thrones announces?

They did like a live feed for the Peter Capaldi announcement. And it was this like big thing on BBC. And they were like, here they are like the doctor for a new generation. And just like a section of the fandom had just like, whipped themselves up into like absolutely believing that this was going to be either a woman or a person of color. And then Peter Capaldi bless in love and adore him, shows up and he's not only a white man, he is like an older white man. And everyone's just like, what? A white man, you know, so it's just like, again, that's not exactly how I felt. My issues with Moffat

had more to do with some of that mythology balancing we were talking about. But, um, I remember that being, like, at least in the corner of the internet that I frequented, like, a big question mark that people had. But I think more to your point, I had some frustrations with the first two Capaldi season. And at that point, I was covering Doctor Who on a regular basis for Vanity Fair, like towards the, I think in the last two seasons. When I had not, I had never been like professionally covering Doctor Who before I had just been watching for fun. So there's like a flip that switches when you're covering on a weekly basis for work versus just enjoying something as a fan. And I remember being so frustrated and then getting to that third Capaldi season with Bill. And I was just like, this is what it should have always been, man.

But I do like that the Capaldi run, in the Quality Run Moffitt breaks free from like some of that really tortured mystery box stuff. There are certainly some season-long teases with like Missy, like who is Missy? Yeah. The hybrid. What is this heaven situation? The hybrid, et cetera. But I think more importantly, we'll talk about this so as we consider like the way the companions are used in this, Moffat seems to really want to drill down on and stop us

if you've heard us say this around Loki. What makes the doctor the doctor? Yes. What makes a Loki a Loki? through a complicated series of mirroring is what we get over these like three seasons which you think is really interesting. But we are also in a time of like a ratings free fall,

like an absolute plummet over the course of Capaldi's run. Like season eight, his first season, is like a little lower than the Matt Smith seasons, but like relatively on par. And then you get a huge drop in season nine and then the lowest who had been in the new Who era in Capaldi's last season, which is too bad because that's the best season.

And then it bumps up again a little bit when Whitaker hops on and then drop plummets again for Whitaker. So like, you know, this is an interesting, yeah, it's just a complicated time for the Who fandom. Yeah, that's fascinating to me. Season 8, while, as I said, it took me a while to get into, and I think it took up Capaldi and Moffed a little while to find exactly who the doctor that they were bringing to us was. There were, I thought that season was even by the standards of a who season, like, really uneven. But there were, there were definitely episodes I liked. The Robin Hood episode.

I really loved my time with Hot Robin Hood and Robot of Sherwood. But even more so like that next episode, listen, I thought was great. And so it's not like there were no high points in that first season, but there were a lot of less successful single episodes and installments. I will say, though, that while I think season 10 on balance, in part because Bill is so compelling, and I think it is the most even season. There are just fewer, like, extreme dips in season 10. And I think Capaldi is operating at such a high level of being the doctor that he was trying to. trying to be at that point. And the dynamic with Bill is so wonderful.

And it gives us this really, like, bright and vibrant and, like, inquisitive relationship with a companion. Even just something like Dr. What instead of Doctor Who? You're like, this is going to be a little bit different. So I thought that whole season was great. But I would just say, I really actually liked season nine quite a bit, even though there were low points. I think I liked structurally that there were almost exclusively, not actually exclusively,

but almost exclusively multi-episode arcs. It felt, I think that sometimes, like, you can feel so jarred, like, in the adventure of the week, pulling in and out of a new character or a new concept. And so I liked getting to, like, settle into an idea a little bit more in that season. I think, though, the main thing for me is, like, not only was that when I really started to feel, like, gripped by Capaldi, you know, you've got your, like, I texted you, it's giving Bob Dylan, like, we're in our rock era, you know? Which I just loved, like, literally the playing of the guitar.

but that kind of like punk rock aesthetic. This is one of my favorite, it has one of my favorite overall episodes, which we'll talk about more later, Heaven Sent. But one of my favorite three episode runs. Like Heaven Sent, Hell Bent, and the husbands of River Song. I was, I was just like, oh my God, this is unbelievable. And you remember that I was like, I was so excited for you when you reached that part in your watch.

Because like, you know, whatever struggles we were having with like, you know, the lows of those first two Cabaldi seasons, I was like once you hit having sent hell bent, Husses River song. Then we're just like cooking with gas through the end. It's so good. So I mean, let's talk about 12 a little bit more because there's there's, you know, for people who love 12 and who love these runs of seasons,

they consider the vast difference between the 12 we meet in deep breath to the 12 that we say goodbye to at the end as say it with me. me a character on an arc. And we love a lot of character on an arc. We sure do. But I think, and part of this is, and we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but like Moffat was never intending to do a third season. So the third season was something that just sort of like happened.

And we'll talk about some of that factors. You know, so like Bill was always, always going to be a one season art companion and all this sort of stuff like that because the third season was just sort of like, well, we're waiting for a new show. so let's just go ahead and do one more season. So then it doesn't feel... TV doesn't have to be planned all the way out in order to be good.

But to my, I don't know, barometer of character, it does not feel to me like a clean arc between the doctor, the angry sneering doctor that we meet when we first meet Capaldi's doctor to the kindly professor and the person who's like mission statement

is you got to be kind you know, to misquote Kervon again. Like that doesn't feel like a considered arc to me but again, I understand that the arguments that people make that it is an arc. So we'll talk through some of it, right?

When we meet him, what I do like about this concept is like when we meet 12 after having spent time with David Ten and Matt Smith, we meet a doctor who's full of like rage and trauma and ego. without the cute young face and smile to cover it up. And I do think that's interesting.

And I do think that's something that's really interesting about his first episode. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me that Clara would have so much trouble accepting him, given that we saw her run through time and interact with every single doctor ever. That was like part of her whole impossible girl thing. But thematically, it is interesting when Madame Bostra is like, I wear a veil as he wears a face to be accepted. and his heartbreak over Clara not accepting it at first, right? He says, you can't see me, can you can't see me?

Right? Conceptually, I like it even if it doesn't quite make sense for Clara. But the age part is really interesting. And we got this email from Joel. I was from Joel. Who says about Capaldi? I recall the general feeling toward him in that peak Tumblr period of 2013-2014 was a very ageist fervor against the idea of an older man playing the doctor.

Doctor whose popularity had been propelled for nearly a decade by the sexy doctor duo of 10 and 11, people were not happy. This is frankly absurd not only because the doctor has been played by older gentlemen before, but because Capaldi is a gray-haired fox if I ever saw one. Also, Clare and 12 definitely had this Sam and Diane unspoken thing going on to Nick of Peter Quillism. So the doctor grappling with not getting the benefit of the doubt that the charm of his youth might bring for him the same way that like we discussed when we talked about, you know, Amy Pond, like older Amy Pond versus younger Amy Pond. I think that's interesting. And I understand why when Stephen Moffitt's like, I'm going to get Peter Capaldi and Peter Capaldi's going to be the doctor. I understand why his first instinct was I'm going to make him as sodiumly salty as possible and flinging insults because Peter Capaldi's most famous role before he played the doctor was Malcolm Tucker, who's like who we thrill to watch insult people.

So when he shows up in deep breath and he is just insulting everyone, you're like, okay, I understand that this is maybe something you think you want to do with Peter Capaldi. but to me watching it, I'm like, is this the doctor? I don't know, Mallory, what was your experience right off the bat there? So I'll start by saying that I'm, there couldn't be a person less inclined to agree with the camp who thought the doctor's like too old to be hot. I mean, Joe, as you know. I know. Middle-aged Brit, that's a fastball down the middle for me.

That's the sweet spot. Literally my favorite. And I, as we went and, you know, as the wardrobe was evolving and the hair, the hair was evolving. And I think particularly the nature of his confidence was evolving. Like, to your point, less like acid-dipped quill and more vulnerability, but always still in command. And I'm the smartest, but let me make. make sure you understand how smart you are too. I just kept texting you about how much of a crush I had.

And how utterly captivating I found him. So it is not a headspace that I can put myself into in terms of that aspect of it. But I understand, I guess, how some people might feel that way. More generally, yeah, I think the point that you're making about that initial, the prominence of the venom. It was certainly notable. Like he just becomes a lot more likable as we go. I mean, the doctor is always a complicated figure.

And I thought that 12 and the characters who are around 12 do a good job across his episodes, and especially in seasons 9 and 10, like interrogating why he behaves the way he behaves, right? And some of the best moments to your what makes a doctor, or doctor what makes a loki, a loki point earlier, come with Missy, I think, for this reason, you know, these questions of like,

what can I see in myself by looking at you or when he's with another version of literally himself and Christmas special, etc, like a number of different examples. I think that there were always moments, and there's always like a blend with the doctor, right? And I think that even just one watch through without having yet had the pleasure of revisiting certain episodes, which I think will be,

this is actually one of the reasons I'm most, excited to revisit seasons already, even though I haven't finished my first watch yet, is because, like, I do feel that there's always a little bit of a blend of, of like, that pepper and that sugar and how it's calibrated and how it's presented to us. And what aspect of that, the doctor in a given moment is trying to channel or trying to suppress is, like, specifically, like, the secret sauce. and when that's actually then like incorporated into the text and is something the character is thinking about

something maybe the companion is helping them work through, that could be so compelling to watch. So I think like one of the things that really is off balance in the first season, I'll just like kind of quickly hit this here because I think it's something you want to talk about later in more depth is that 12 and Clara in the first season are highlighting this in each other in the worst way. You know, even just like and it's not like

I'm like, oh my God, my gentle ears are wounded by this. I just thought it was odd. Like, even the number of times, and I know there's just kind of like casual, like quirky, uh, British aspect to this, but even just the number of times they just like tell each other to shut up

or do as you're told. It's like, it, it just wasn't working for me. And then as we kind of shed that, and take the elements that were always there, because there are moments early where he's trying to provide comfort and support. And like one of the, it's the fourth episode. of his first seasons with little Rupert with little Danny Pink.

What's wrong with Scared? Scared is a superpower. That's like one of the tenderest and most encouraging and empowering things we've heard from a doctor. I loved that line and loved that moment. So it's not like those elements weren't there. I think it was just the calibration. Yeah, I think the Clara Doctor toxicity, which then becomes like in its second season, the show seems to be like, yeah, that's the point. I'm like, was that always the point? I don't know. I can't tell you. But let's talk about a textual reason why this doctor might, at least initially have read as more bitter, more misanthropic than the doctors we've had before. The doctors we've had before is something that marks them. I mean, it swings back and forth to a certain degree, but almost always when they're introduced, there introduces like earth defenders, lovers of earth. It is defended.

Right? And what we get in Capaldi's first episode is him saying, no, no, shut up. What do you all have brains for brains pudding? Look at you. Why can't I mean a decent species? Planet of the pudding brains? And like, that's funny and fun and a G-rated version of Malcolm Tucker. But it's not like, I love humanity, which is something that like we got a lot from the other doctors. but a reminder that the doctor's only supposed to have a certain number of regenerations, 11. And so it was this whole like, I remember leading up, everyone was like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? The doctor's only supposed to have this many regenerations.

What are you going to do? And they're like, you know, Moffat and company are like, oh, time you, why me wave your hand? Who cares? We'll do what we want. It's our own show. But if you carry on that idea of like this is a doctor. aged beyond the doctor is supposed to age. That's kind of interesting.

So we got this email from a listener, Zip. By the way, I love that we have a listener named Zip. Zip wrote, 12 started as a bold swerve, a doctor whose bitterness towards humanity was brought to the fore, a true misanthropic streak, and a tired god who must now be dragged, kicking and screaming into saving this planet of shaved apes for the 10,000th time, alive in an incarnation beyond the point

when every other time lord gets to enjoy an eternal rest. By the end of the run, however, 12 has become the graceful old rock star, all long hair and cool shades and sherry Red Gibson, grateful to have lived a life so interesting as to own some hard-earned regrets, once again in full command of their love for the human race, and ready to become something beautiful again.

So, yeah, if done intentionally, that's a great story. I just am not confident that that was the plan and it doesn't feel like the plan. And so the parts where it's a doctor, we have trouble recognizing like Clara, it's not the gray hair. It's not, you know, it's not the years on the face or whatever. It's the personality that is the hardest for us to contend with. And when you swing from putting brains or him like threatening a shieldier, we're going to talk about Maisie Williams. in season nine for sure,

to this big speech he gives right at the end to the master and Missy. Carlos, can we hear this? I do what I do because it's right, because it's decent. And above all, it's kind. It's just that. Just kind.

If I run away today, good people will die. If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe there's no point in any of this at all. But it's the best I can do. So I'm going to do it. And I was standing here doing it till it kills me.

You're going to die too someday. How will that be if you thought about it? P.S. they died that day. Both of them. I love this speech, but it is hard to reconcile. That doctor. And again, if you, if you, if you like it and it works for you, then it's just a character on a, on a real broad arc.

And if you don't, then it just feels like to your point earlier, oh, they finally figure it out a personality that fits the actor and the role together, you know, in that final season. I think like episode to episode minute to minute, either in real time or the first time through the episodes, that is, that you feel that more keenly. And then like, I think in part just sort of a very like right now reality as we do these episodes, I think because we're watching, you know, 40 some, depending on the particular doctor in a couple weeks for each of these, the things that, like, move and

verbal to the, to the four feel like the most essential moments in a character arc. And it doesn't mean that they were like consistently parceled out to us or evenly balanced. But like now when I think back, I'll, I'll do so and be able to say, okay, well, at the end of the first season, there's, yes, a lot of everything that you just rightly sketched out. And we still build toward a moment like pain is a gift when he's talking to Cyber Danny or one of my favorite moments in the first. season, the never trust a hug. It's just a way to hide your face and the tears that we see in 12's eyes over Clara's shoulders and like that, not just that he's feeling that, but that he doesn't feel like he can show her that and what does that tell us about him? And then we move into, you know, we're evolving in fits and starts and in bursts. I think for me, the spot where

it really felt like it started to happen more meaningfully, like what is the arc for this doctor and what is unlocking that is with our gal Macy is with Aria because even though the A Shildor slash me character a girl has no name just me

those episodes I think the quality varies and the use of the character varies I think what works is how these conversations about immortality and responsibility and

connection and memory, like these feel like essential aspects to getting 12 to think about the way that the decisions he makes impact other people because they have concretely in a real way impacted this person in front of him who can then engage in these discussions with him. So that was like, and that's also the episode where he realizes why he has this face, right, and the power of like saving so. So that was when it started to really click for,

me, that episode five and six run of season nine. As a concept of Shielder, for those reasons, is intriguing to me. In execution, it doesn't really work for me. With love and respect, kind of down to Maisie's performance of it, I think. I don't think she's the right actress for it, even though I obviously think she's incredible as Aria. So I want to get to that who frown me. this face speech because it's a peak moment, who moment for me of all time. Before we get there,

though, do you want to take a moment to talk about season nine midlife crisis doctor when we get the fun pants, the guitar, the sonic sunglasses? Do you have anything you want to say about this? I'm still recovering from the moment that the guitar strumming doctor hears and sees Clara and Missy for the first time and starts strumming pretty woman. just iconic, genuinely. Kapal be like really, he's a musician and you can tell. Like, it's really good.

And I loved almost every moment where he got to play guitar. I thought that was really cool. I actually wish they'd done it more. Here's my thing on the sunglasses. And I appreciate you giving me a moment to share this with, I was going to say you, but I've already shared this with you. I sent you a number of text messages about this. I love the sunglasses.

They look great. they're cool. He's trying a new thing. It's like, sure, the doctor's more than 2,000 years old, but he's just like any of us, you know? Or always in the midst of some aspect of coming of age and self-discovery and exploration, I rock with it. However, it is a crime. Crime and an abomination. An abomination, wow. To give us a stretch of the story, and they rectified it in time. thank the gods, a stretch of time in the story where we had sonic sunglasses instead of a sonic screwdriver. Because as was later borne out in the show, nothing about having a sonic screwdriver prevents him from wearing sonic shades. And also, he could just wear sunglasses and look cool

and rock them, which he did. But to not have a sonic screwdriver and have sonic sunglasses instead for like multiple episodes was... Collar was like, Joanna. Joanna, what was the outrage level at the time? Where people were really mad about Sonic sunglasses? I was like, I don't remember. I was like, was this a scandal? Was this an absolute outrage scandal of Sonic sunglasses?

That was how it felt to me. Not to my recollection, but, um, and I will say at least, and you, when you were texting me about this, to be fair, you hadn't gotten to these episodes yet, but at least there's, like, some payoff for it in season 10 when, like, he has this dress where he can't see, and the Sonic sunglasses are, like, helping him with that. but that clearly was not the intention when they first arrived on the scene this season prior. So, anyway, let's talk about the season nine duty of care revelation that you alluded to. Carlos, can we hear the who frown me this face speech, please?

Who frown me this face? Why this one? Why do I choose this face? Doctor, what's one with your face? It's like I'm trying to tell myself something. I think I know what I'm trying to say. Just someone. Not the whole term.

Just save someone. Come with me. I know what I got this face and I know what it's for. Okay. What's it for? To remind me, to hold me to the mark. I'm the doctor and I save people. And if anyone happens to me listening,

and you've got any kind of a problem with that? To hell with you! Did I find a way to get, Donna Noble into a podcast where Don Noble doesn't appear? Yes, I did. Really so? I did. Look at the impact that Donna is having still on the doctor and on us.

I'm so glad you said it that way because that leads me right into this email from our listener, Madeline. Another Donna fan who says, has ever been made completely clear how the doctor chooses their faces when they regenerate? However, it's implied that the doctor's subconscious plays a role. we eventually learned that in the Capaldi seasons the reason why the 12th doctor chose this specific face which is the face of Casilius from Pompeii whose family the doctor and Donna saved way back in season four he chose that face as a reminder that he must always try to save people

even when the situation is bleak he's not the doctor because he always succeeds he's not the doctor he's the doctor because he never gives up Donna didn't just make a man out of him she made a doctor out of him, and the 12th doctor's face is a constant and beautiful reminder of that fact. Now, is this plot point an excuse to explain why a prominent guest character from a previous season is played by the same actor who would go on to be the doctor? Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't make it any less true or resonant for the story.

And then Madeline goes on to make a connection about why David Tennant might, his face is showing back up again in someone that Russell T. Dave, in the, in the thing, anniversary special, David Tennant is showing up, and Russell T. Davies is very clear that this is the 14th Doctor. This is not the 10th Doctor return. This is the 14th Doctor. So Madeline writes, we don't know why the doctor has averted to an old face tenant in the upcoming anniversary specials, but I'm willing to bet it has something to do with Donna and their unfinished business. If there's anyone that can help the doctor understand himself and help him become the space man he's meant to be, it's Donna. In the season four finale, two-part of the Stolen Earth slash Journey's End, Dalek Con, refers to Donna is the most faithful companion of the doctor. It's possible that by the time of the 60th anniversary specials, she will have impacted not one,

but two of the doctor's regenerations, the most faithful companion indeed. Donna! That's the best. What a great email. How did you feel about this moment, this speech for 12, this revelation, this idea of, like, I chose his face because this was a moment I saved somebody, Donna says. I thought it was perfection. Yeah, I guess. Absolutely could not have loved it more. And it was a really good example, two of a promise paying off because, like, you included that in the clip. It is included in the clip, these flashes and these recollections in real time. But, you know, it's nice to get to hear it there in the clip because, like, in the first episode, shout out that dinosaur. What a time that was. Deep breath, dude.

the real time reckoning, you know, that who found me this face, like 12 trying to figure out why. It's like a promise to us, to the audience, that we will get that answer. And so not only to receive it, but for it to be such a meaningful one. And it made me think of like one of the questions you asked at the very beginning of our beautiful journey here.

Like, is this a mantle or a character? Like, how are those two things entwined with each other? And like, this is such a, this is such a central, like, elemental reminder of, like, how it's both, you know, how, like, each of each version of the doctor is unique and distinct and on a journey and arc that is specific to them and they have their own companions and their own adventures, but how they are, it's a long journey, it's a long arc, it's a connection, right? And like those experiences don't cease to matter.

And I think especially the Moffitt run has like really, I mean, all of it. But like the idea of memory has been so prominent that like I really like accounting for that not just in the way that it like haunts you and the way that that trauma informs you. But the way that you can still find inspiration and understanding in these key moments from your past, even if it was a different version of you. And I think especially because that I love that scene overall. in that episode, in the girl who died, because before we get this light bulb moment, this revelation, which we just heard, we're in a state of absolute despair because the shoulder has died. We get that, I'm sick of losing people moment. And he turns to Clare and he says, look at you with your eyes. You're never giving up to anger and your kindness. One day,

the memory of that will hurt so much that I won't be able to breathe. And I'll do what I always do. I'll get in my box and I'll run and I'll run in case all the pain ever catches up. And every place I do it will be there. And so I think this is like a perfect scene inside of this run with 12, but really a perfect doctor who's seen because like not only does it give us this beautiful connection to Donna and this clarity and this insight and this understanding and pay off a promise from the past. It sets up a promise for the future. It's like so central to what we get in heaven sent and hell bent with.

And that's like so true to the doctor. That was one of the first things you kind of prime. before is like this isn't always like a good man who does purely good things. And so even this moment of like keen insight and self-reflection, which does help the doctor do something good, it sets him on the path where the things that he does that are good have real consequences, dire ones, like so much of, okay, he saves a shildor and that's a beautiful lesson from Donna, save just one person. But the burden of that haunts her and him for the rest of the rest of time. And his declaration to Clara here that he wouldn't be able to like cope with

the losing her, bears delicious pear fruit. Like he can't handle it. And I think what I love about watching Doctor Who, because the seasons are so short and they've written the seasons out in their entirety before they shoot them, then like, you know, yeah, all these little breadcrumbs are are so intentionally laid to set us up for something. So, the episodes themselves might be uneven in quality, but in terms of like we're walking towards a conclusion, that's true from the beginning, bad wolf from the beginning, you know.

I want to talk about something that I really dislike about the Capaldi run, which is this concept of president of the world, Doctor Who is president of the world, which pops up a number of times. I hate the idea, and I hate, I like that he kind of rejects it, but then also sometimes he accepts it.

And I just like, I don't know, all of those, there's like, I would say two to three episode runs and he's in that deal with this like idea, a lot of having to do with like Kate Lithbridge Stewart, etc. or whatever. I'm just, I'm not about it at all. How do you feel about it? Yeah, Sam, I thought it was very odd. The one thing I really liked about it was that it gave us the comedy of him saying he wanted to go on the plane again because he likes to pounce about planes, which I found very fun.

other than that, I thought it was, yeah, not only like bizarre, but contrary in a really, like, keen way. Like, the human being aspect of it, I guess, tracks that they would seek refuge in this savior, but from the doctor's perspective, not so much. And then, of course, it's so set, like, Zygon invasion plot, like, okay, how much are we thinking about those episodes, though? Shout out Asgood now and always. But like something like the plot with the monks, which was such an elemental run, like, it's for a while you're the president of the world. It's like, wait.

It's a three-episode arc. What? Yeah. I'm just like, what's happening? By the way, this reminds me that I wanted to say to you. Because just talking about Zygon invasion made me think, of course, of secret invasion because the plots are nearly identical. But also, like, Time Heist was like shout out Endgame.

There were so many moments. So many moments. And all the Loki stuff. And the Loki stuff was like, I mean. The Master and Missy. Like, the master and Missy, of course, most of all with the variants. But like, the monk, talking about that monk arc is what reminded me of it just now. Like, we're here.

Come into our room with our threads of history and time. And then let's set up a discussion between two key figures about. Wait, what happened to believing in free will? I was like when Bill, even though it ended up being a test, when Bill was shouting at the doctor, like, what about free will? I was like, fuck yeah. This is exactly what we've been talking about. This is like almost unbelievable how closely this used to that. That was really fun.

Something I really enjoyed in our, in our, I'm just trying to like nail down the taxonomy of 10 and 11. It was very Stephen Moffat of us to give them like names, right? well, Moffitt himself voted into the anniversary special, the one who regrets and the one who forgets. 10 and 11. So what is 12? We got a nomination for one of our listeners,

which I really quite like, which is the one who grieves. And something that I think is interesting about that grief for Capaldi is the way so many things are hidden from him as the doctor. This is something that Bethany pointed

out. But so, like, something we talked about, let me, let me, let me, let me backtrack for a second and say, something that we talked about that Russell T. Davies did that was different from the Doctor Who that came before was he made the companion sort of the driving POV characters of the show. So it's Rose's show almost more than it is the doctor's show. Martha, less successfully so. And then Donna, again, more her story necessarily than it is his story. And then I would say that Moffitt flipped and reversed that in the Matt Smith era. It initially seems like it's an Amy Pond story, but then it just like, you know, the Ponds leave the TARDIS for stretches. You know what I mean?

It just becomes the doctor story, which is fine. Like, you know, that's the same as it ever was. But then it's interesting to me that in the Capaldi era, I wouldn't say it's Clara's story necessarily or I wouldn't say that it's Bill's story. but the doctor, so much of the story is hidden from the doctor and revealed to the audience, and I do find that fascinating. Bethany writes, I'm struck by how the audience has spared so much of what the doctor is not in the grief department. We know that Gallifrey is saved before he does, though it gets timing whimy. We know Clara gets more adventures and critically retains the memories.

We never have to take goodbye to River, but Capaldi's performance leaves no doubt as to what that goodbye was to him. Bill joins the pilot, but the doctor's loss remains. And then also, like, the doctor doesn't know that Missy was going to, like, come back and stand with him before she died. There's, like, a lot of things that we see that the doctor doesn't see. Oh, that was painful. Yeah, you know. Yeah, because he, like, works. It was so important to him to know that, and then he doesn't get to know it.

So what do you make of that of that, of, like, us knowing more than the doctors quite often in this run of story? What an interesting observation. I guess there's something very strange and unmooring about it because it's not how we expect the reality of a Doctor Who story to like function. But I think I kind of like it because at least sometimes, because I think it's like a little bit of an evening of the scales. You know, one of the things that can be in the opposite direction, whether it's for us as viewers or a for a companion or for just someone else,

a friend along the way or a foe along the way, is like that infallible all-knowing, larger than life and longer than time aspect of this mammoth figure. And like we, you know, we have many moments, including some very sad ones in this season that like really, really zero in on that idea. You know, Sunset can't love you back. It's like he's just a thing you can't wrap your arms. And so does it always feel fair inside of a story if that's true? Maybe not. Does it always feel like how it should go? Maybe not. But there's something it almost like spreads the power. It almost

like democratizes the tail a little bit. So I didn't find myself like minding it though it is painful in certain spots. Yeah. The missy point at the end was like so, so gut-wrenching. I found their scenes together incredible, so I was just like, I wish he knew that she made that choice. I can't wait to talk about the legend Michelle Gomez. But I think especially in that the way that, I mean, we're going to talk about,

obviously we're going to talk about hellbent and heaven sent when we get to like our little many deep dives into episodes. But like the way that that episode plays with our expectation of the doctor as all knowing and patronizing, and flips it on its head in the revelation that it's Clara who's like pretending and patronizing to him. Patronizing is a negative way to look at it. You know, is sort of like holding him in this space of not remembering. Let me take your hand and comfort you because you're lost.

Yeah. It's so sweet. But we think we know what story we're watching because we're so used to the doctor knowing, you know? And so it's a really fun. That one really flips our expectations on their head in an incredibly satisfying way. I just love that episode. Love. So the one who greases is one good, you know, taxonomy and another, this is mine, is the one

who explains because what I really love is that explain. Because they make, even before they literally make him a professor in his final season, which again, they were never planning to do that season. So it was never like, uh-huh. It was just sort of like, you know what he's really good at? Lectures, because there's a number of scenes. And Smith, I think, did this a couple times, but no one has done it as much as Capaldi,

which is walk around the TARDIS and talk directly to the camera and literally use a chalkboard to talk to us about certain concepts and stuff like that. So the most sort of overt version of that, and when we get it in some other episodes, but the description of the bootstrap paradox in before the flood. An episode I actually quite like, part of a two-partner, I actually quite like. But the bootstrap paradox via Beethoven explanation is just like really fun and funny. Or in deep breath, the first episode, he sits down and does a ship of Theseus conversation with our villain when talking about you are a broom.

You replace the handle, you replace the bristles. At what point are you still the same broom? I'm like, oh. Somewhere vision. Yeah, exactly. This is my corner. But it wasn't. The doctor was here first.

I don't have any large, grandiose point to make about that. I just kind of love that they, like, had him give a number of those little, like, lectures. And then they made him a lecturer. And I was like, I'm – and what I love about them making him a lecturer is that he's a lecturer and, like, with the most popular class. Like, of course, the students' love. Love him. Like, love going to his lectures. This is what I was going to cite, too, because I think there's a version of this.

I also love this aspect of this doctor and this performer. I was struck. I mean, every doctor gives us a number of really just incredibly compelling and memorable speeches. The doctor loves to give a speech. But I think Capaldi has to have the highest tally. And some of them are the deeply emotional and poignant speeches about kindness or any other incited to human names. nature, but a lot of them are just about, to your point here, understanding something. And I think

there's a way that that could actually be really alienating, where it's like, God, what a preachy asshole who always thinks he knows better than everyone around him, because he does and is constantly compelled to remind us that he understands the thing we don't. I think that could be off-putting, but it's not. It's, like, so magnetic because it's magnanimous. Like, he wants to, help. And I think that aspect of the students and seeing that he's this like rock star legend who everybody can't wait to like sign up to be in his class or audit his class or even if you're serving chips and you're not enrolled in a student at all, you show up because you just have to because you can't wait to like witness this display. And like it's it's a really good like

shorthand because you would know that you would want to do that too, right? If you were a student at the school, of course, you would go sit in and listen to the doctor and like, what a thrill it would be. And oh, my God, imagine if the doctor summoned you to his office and offered to be your personal tutor as long as you always get a first. Like, that part was just, it just really, really works. And I think Capaldi knows how to, knows how to present the one who explains as like, I'm your partner in understanding. And it's such an interesting thinking about the times and television shows where that has gone wrong. Like, okay, so I think the king of,

the historical king of TV monologues is Aaron Zorkin, right? And so, like, and when it goes well, you get the West Wing, and when it's, like, less effective, you get the newsroom. And that has to do with, like, attitude of the one giving the speech, I think, is what I would say between the two main characters giving speeches in those two shows. Or you get something like the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer show that you will watch

someday, which is just groaning under the weight of all the inspirational battle speeches Buffy has to give in that season. And it's famously a frustrating part of that season. Or Mike Flanagan, who I'm currently in the middle of spooky season enjoying my Mike Flanagan time, people have varying opinions about how much they enjoy the, the classic Mike Flanagan monologues, but I just, I think that like I've never met a Doctor Who's speech I didn't love. I think, you know, it doesn't matter who's writing them. They're so good. It's like unbelievable. They're all so good. The hit rate is astonishing. Yeah, it's incredible.

All right, let's talk about Clara. We're going to, let's get into what we think makes a good companion. And full disclosure, I won't speak for Mallory. Clara is maybe one of my least favorite companions, I'm sad to say. We have someone, one of our listeners will be defending her shortly. Her defense attorney is here in the in the shape of one of our listeners, but that is my POV. So let's start with this quote from Missy about Clara. She's perfect, isn't it? The control freak and the man who should never be controlled, you'd go to hell if she asked, and she would. Wandering, Doctor, can you hear that?

Now that, the sound of your chain being yanked. Hill, Doctor! Help me, Doctor. Oh, me, Doctor. Clara Oswald. Clara Oswald. Alwyn. Alwood.

Claire Oswald. The Impossible Girls, Suflai Girl. She have many names. Titles, titles, titles, you know the damn words. The longest running companion in Who history. Mali Rubin. Tell me your Clara thoughts. I want to hear all of your Clara thoughts.

All right. Tell me. It was such a tease, such a setup. We need to hear all your thoughts. So something that I think could have been potentially positive is that more than any other companion in Who history, she has her own life outside the, you know, like Rose leaves her entire life to go off in the TARDIS.

So does Donna, so does Martha, right? Like this is, that was what you did in the Russell T. Davies era, right? Oh, you're just with the doctor now. That's what you do. The ponds did pop in and out, but because we're with the doctor all the time, like we're not really with their, like, we just check in and we're like, what, you're divorce now? Amy's a model now?

What's happening? We didn't know. Clara, we get all this time, partially because of like the whole Danny Pink setup and stuff like that, we had so much time with Clara as a teacher, Clara and her students, like all that sort of stuff. Like Clara's life outside the TARDIS. and so that should be something that I think is cool, this sort of like we're not codependent,

but it's the opposite. She is the most codependent companion with her doctor, and that double life just leads to more toxicity because as Riversong likes to say, the doctor lies, Clara lies, and the doctor lies, and they lie to each other. And it drives me absolutely banana.

I am so frustrated by the toxicity of their relationship. There is that complicated lingering crush dynamic that comes out in the worst version of it comes out in the doctor's absolutely disgustingly jealous treatment of Danny, which I hate. I don't even really care that much about Danny, but I just like hate the way that the doctor hates him. It's just such an unflattering look for the doctor. And that's my, I guess that's my Clara rant before I get to the defense attorneys amongst our listeners. I mean, I know that you did not enjoy Clara that much either. So what are you saying about that? Yeah, certainly didn't, Clara did not grip me, you know, the way that Rose or Donna or even more fun.

Amy, yeah, it did. And it's not like there weren't moments with Clara that I enjoyed. There certainly were. But the overall, and I, you know, the lingering crush part, again, I think perhaps unsurprisingly, like, I don't mind that. And that felt actually kind of like true to life to me that if you had those feelings for somebody, like they wouldn't just vanish and that it would be complicated to work through what that meant for you as your relationship evolved, but also literally as that person

evolved in front of you. And I, I, it's, it's, it, I think part of why I will say I really agree with you on the, um, the Danny point. I thought like the way that he called him P.E. I also was not

particularly taken with Danny as a character. I know we'll talk about that born. Yeah. But I'm like, don't make me defend Danny Pink. Like that's how I felt to where I was just like. Yeah. It was just like this is like this, this is just like not a This is not behavior to recommend you.

This is just very, very, very off. I think the part of why I loved Heaven Sent and Hell Bent so much, not only because conceptually I thought they were brilliant, but like it felt like an opportunity to sit inside of and really appreciate. what they had meant to each other without like the constant oh boy

like this feels wrong or off or weird or do we understand why a person is behaving this way it was like man this is the impact that Clara had on the doctor was supreme and we got to linger inside of that

in a way that showed why he mattered to him I connected with his grief and you and I talked about this like I think the send out for Clara and Hellbent is one of the most beautiful set-offs for a companion ever. And I cry when I watch it.

I cry when he plays her theme on the guitar. I cry. And it's a miracle because I don't really like that character, but I can connect with the grief that he's feeling. And I think if anything, it's so powerful

and so deeply affecting that it makes you a little, a little anger, even about maybe some of the squandered opportunities along the way. One of the moments that struck me as a little bit emblematic of this way earlier was in Darkwater, the 11th episode of season eight, where we get a line that I thought was gorgeous and powerful and cut to the heart of friendship and devotion. do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?

That's something the doctor says to Clara. Iconic line, yeah. Like, Pantheon. I was like, this is just like, there are lines like this every 15 minutes in the show, and it's unbelievable. There's like nothing. I haven't experienced anything like it. I thought that was astonishing.

It comes on the heels of the Tartis key melting in lava gambit. The fact that Clara would do that, the fact that the. doctor tricked her to teach her a lesson, and then the lecture about all the ways that she did betray him. So I think it's very emblematic of this, like, slightly off brew in the cauldron of their relationship where, like, you have the potential for something astonishing. And we got it. But it's surrounded by, like, something bubbling in the mix that feels like it might splash over and burn you. I'm going to bring in the defense attorneys from our.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of them makes a comp that I think is really impactful for helping me explain some of my frustrations. So Julia, defense attorney number one, says, Clara is one of the most hated companions, so I wanted to defend her a little bit. It's true that she's messing all over the place in season seven and eight. Before her, it was a truth universally acknowledged that the doctor and a companion traveling together is the best way for both. The companion's role is to give the doctor's perspective to help him see right from wrong. All previous companions do that. So the fact that we're not sure if Clara actually brings out a better side of the doctor is refreshing. She lies.

She blatantly uses him. She's reckless to the point of madness, and she's unapologetic for it. Those are things that both we and the doctor are not used to and broadens the definition of what a gay companion could be, and I'm here for it. So that's defense number one. Number two, there's less of a direct defense attorney thing but pulled from this larger email from O'Sner Bailey. who says, we watch him the doctor love Clara so much that they start to meld into something toxic. Think Craig Mason describing The Last of Us. Clara is lost and broken after losing Danny and the doctor is willing to give her everything to try to fix it

without ever truly understanding how to make it better. So that The Last of Us comp, I thought was brilliant from Bailey, A, but also actually goes back to reinforce my point, which is that I don't get frustrated when I watch Joel and Ellie interact. I, like, I am seduced into, like, the connections that they're forming, and I enjoy my time with them. And I'm not just, like, chafing under bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. I am watching two broken lost souls try to find each other. And then, you know, as their tendrils yearn and tangle with each other,

it becomes something more potentially dangerous, but I'm not actively frustrated watching it. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's the difference where, again, conceptually, I don't mind this idea that the doctor in this particular companion create a hybrid that is so toxic and dangerous that the timelores have to get involved. You know, like I kind of like that notion, but I would wish that I had a better time watching them together in order to get there. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think those are both great points and great emails from Julia and Bailey

and a wonderful encapsulation of those assessments from you. I think that there are plenty of moments where like the fact that's something about Clara's relationship to the idea of being a companion or Clara's relationship to the doctor feels different, that is actually, it's like refreshing that not every relationship is the same. And it's important that people make different choices for different reasons, like how they're assessing that with each other. And like, again, I think for me it was just often that the moments, the highs are so high with the two of them. Again, like, just to be clear, it's not that we don't think there are eyes. For me, the highs are so high that I'm like, I want to better understand how we got to that depth of feeling.

You know, like a, I think another moment to stand out, this is actually also in the. girl who died in that initial Shilder introduction episode when I thought this was an amazing scene when they're walking back

toward the TARDis and they're leaving and Clara asks why he gave her two why he gave her like a second chip that could grant immortality and he says immortality isn't living forever

that's not what it feels like immortality is everybody else dying she might meet someone she can't bear to lose and then there's like a beat and he pauses for a second and he just says, that happens, I believe. And again, it's emblematic because he's obviously talking about Clara and the way that he feels about her and how how the nature of that feeling and the fear of that loss then informs the decisions that he makes not only about his own life or about Clara's, but about other people's lives too.

And that's like a really potent thing to explore. So there are moments that give us, okay, well, this is like a pretty intense examination of like choice and consequence and the ripple effect in the web that other people get caught in because of the fear that you have about losing and grieving another person, et cetera. So those moments are there. It's like is the path to them always as evenly paved as it is for some of the companions? I think certainly not. Something that's interesting and like, you know, I mentioned this briefly before, but I think it's interesting, especially building upon that idea, the doctor his face and him looking in various reflective surfaces at his face.

So he's like constantly trying to like physically mirror and understand why he's wearing a face that he knows. But there's also this idea of him trying to mirror himself through these various people in order to better understand himself. Again, what makes a loki aloki. So more than any other doctor before him, even 10, despite winding up with the Dr. Donna very briefly, this is a doctor who tries to mold his companion in his image actively, through, sometimes through manipulation. So in episodes, a widely reviled episode, Kill the Moon. Easily one of my least favorite.

Yeah. And then another one that a lot of people don't like, but I do think has its good qualities flatline. These are episodes where Carr has to play The Doctor. And she is so angry about it in Kill the Moon. But this is what's so uneven. She's so angry at the end of Kill the Moon because she feels like she's been manipulated, right? She says, I nearly didn't press that button.

I nearly got it wrong. That was you, my friend, making me scared, making me feel like a bloody idiot. And then she leaves the TARDIS. And she's like, fuck you, I'm leaving the Tartis. And then they're like, one last ride for Mommy on the Orient Express, an episode that I love. And then she's just, and then she's just like back out. It's like, you know, it's addiction, essentially. I'm like, I just wish her, like, resolved to not be in the TARDIS had lasted literally an episode, which it doesn't.

And then his attempt to, like, turn her into him is ultimately what gets her killed, right? Because when she makes this move, when she takes this number on her neck, in a move that, yes, I do believe the doctor would do, the doctor says to her, I let you get. reckless and she says, why, why shouldn't I be so reckless? You're reckless all the bloody time. Why can't I be like you? And he says, Clara, there's nothing special about me. I'm nothing, but I'm less breakable than you. I should have taken care of you. She said, I never asked you to. And he says, you shouldn't have to ask. But that he's, him actively trying to turn her into a mini-him so that he could have a reflection back at him. And the clearer reflection is, of course, missing. We'll talk about that in a second.

is what means that he loses her. She doesn't die or she does, depending on how you decide to view it, but he loses her because of that. The thing, I mean, the, kill the moon, which we need not linger on for more than another moment.

I think that her resentment of him forcing her to make that choice and the real kind of withering indictment of you are presenting basically empowerment when really it's like cowardice and or this like desperate need of your own. I think that's an interesting concept

that was not well executed. And I think because it is so well executed elsewhere, like you mentioned Missy and I know we'll talk more about this specific moment later, but like one of my out tease that one of my favorite moments in the entire run is him talking about how Missy is the most like him and then Bill Nardle having to try to read the expression on his face

and interrogate what that means, and then what we can glean about what that means and what his need is there. So, like, that aspect of the doctor making those decisions broadly, I think is a compelling through line of the character, but the particular nature of how it manifests in here is a little off. Because, like, even with Bill and, like, Cyberbill,

you know, there's that same, in theory, there's that parallel of, like, I let this happen. Like, I failed my duty of care. This happened because of me. and because you're traveling with me. So again, it's not even the core, like, text or choice. It's just that it is the execution in those episodes. It's a bummer.

But there were plenty of good Clara moments, too. You know, some fun ones, some fun adventures. She's really fun in that Robin Hood episode. Love that one. The Danny Pink of it all, I think we've already mostly talked upon, but I talked about. But I don't want to skip him having his standing up to the doctor moment. Carlos, can you play this clip? I'm a soldier guilty as charged.

You see him? He's an officer. I'm not an officer. I'm the one who carries you out of the fire. He's the one who lights it. Oh, no. Right away, sir, straight now? Yes. Am I dismissed?

Yes, you are! That's him. Look at him right now. That's who it is. I don't know. Just like great stuff from Danny when like Danny just gets shit upon left and right by both the doctor and the way that Clara like lies to him. and treats him and stuff like that.

It's just like, and then he dies. I mean, and then, yeah, and then like Dream Danny has a great, you know, moment in the Christmas special. But, like, it's a tough beat for Danny Pink, good old Danny Pink. And it's just, again, reflects so poorly on the doctor, his treatment of Danny. It's just awful. Yeah, like even building toward like, oh, good. on you pee like you cracked it like maths and teeth i was like this is no i really wanted to like the danny pink character more than i did i think like danny seems lovely and bright and devoted and caring

and i think the clip you picked is like a a great moment for the danny pink character but everything we've already talked about with the doctor which is you know more of a reflection on the doctor than of Danny, certainly. But even like the Danny-A-Clarra relationship just didn't work for me because like we don't understand why they love like love each other. We just don't understand. You know, you get to see a couple moments. Obviously there's like the dinner initial, you know, courtship date, the flubbed sequence. But okay, so yeah, they're like cuddling on the couch and watching TV. But like you said, with the lies and the nature of the lies and the repetition of the lies, I'm like, why would these people be together exactly?

And even, I will say, like, it pays off nicely in the moments, like in the clip you highlighted where Danny challenges Clara to see something clearly about the doctor. I think that's compelling and it's to his credit. But I will say, I thought that the general presentation of Danny as a soldier who's dealing with trauma on his past that we don't really understand until, like, we get a little bit of a payoff with the kid in the NetherSphere sequence was like almost like a caricature of post-war grief. And that's not, again,

that's not about the performance. That's about the writing and the deployment of the character. But we just didn't, we didn't get enough, we didn't get enough to understand Danny for him to have like that

big of impact on the characters in that season, I don't think. I kind of feel like we also already covered a shielder and you already like hit most of the points that I wanted to hit about her and I don't think we need to linger here.

I'm eager to get to something that I really loved. so I'm not like dwelling too much in things that I didn't like. But I will just say that like I think the concept of the doctor's savior complex, like the ugly ramifications of that, I think the concept of this immortal creature, I was texting, or no, I put it in the doc, in the sort of like notes doc that I sent to you about the various episodes. There is opportunity here for a kind of story that I really, really enjoy.

and I was reminded a lot of the Hobgadling storyline in Sandman. And so when we get either in a shielder or a character like Sam Swift who gets the benefit, the other sort of immortal token, right? Like, I wish that that was a character, like he was amusing, but I wish that was a character that I liked more, or was excited to, like, see more of. Or just this, like, idea of trying to position, as there's not as much.

Missy in this season. There's a lot of Missy in the first season and the third season, but not so much the second season. And so you set up a shielder as a sort of like master-esque other immortal that can go toe to toe with a doctor. I love that as a concept. And I just didn't love it in execution. So yeah, this is definitely, this is definitely something I think I liked more than you did. because I thought that the even inside of uneven and inconsistent

like plot points or single episode storylines, I thought that we just got so many exchanges between the two of them that felt like really sensual

and consequential to our understanding of the doctor and of the doctor at this point in his journey know what happened to you. You did doctor.

I was like, fuck yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is great, you know, and then him having to confront, like, I didn't know that your heart would rust because I kept it beating. Like, there are these brutal barbs in both directions that build toward, like, some clarity, not ultimately about each other, but about what they both need, like, what they, why they are so dangerous for each other. You know, I thought the, we need the mayflies.

Do you see the mayflies? They know more than we do. They know how precious and beautiful life is because it's fleeting moment when they're. the doctor says that to a shilder was like, it's a very like good place finale, you know, like you have to understand that like don't just fear the finite things. I thought like an aspect like a shielder, okay, we learned that she has had children, that she has lost and she has grieved. And this realization that she keeps these diaries because she can't remember her own life otherwise.

And like there are pages missing, but that's not one of them because she has to remember that specific horror so that she. remembers not to do that to herself again. Like, there were these moments of real impact inside of their relationship. So I enjoyed, I enjoyed the conversations that they had, I guess is what I would say. Everything you say conceptually, I think it's brilliant. And I do think a lot of those, I think the writing was done really well. I honestly, I think it comes down to performance for me, unfortunately.

So that's where I am. Speaking of performances, let's talk about the icon. Michelle Gomez as Missy. This is just unbelievable. Carlos Lee plays this clip, please. Time lady, thank you. Some of us can afford the upgrade.

Is it still the same old Supreme Dalek these days? I fought him once on the slopes of the Nevervolt. Tell him the bitch is back. Demented, horny, homicidal Mary Poppins. I love her. I truly have no notes. I thought that this was extraordinary, absolutely captivating performance from Michelle Gomez,

just astonishing. And such an injection of humor and oddity, but also like these real deep, philosophical, existential moments of inquiry. Like, it is the alchemy of Doctor Who in one character. I loved it. Loved. I knew her.

before Doctor Who, she's in this BBC comedy, or maybe Channel 4, anyway, a British comedy called a Green Wing, where she is equally bizarre, actually more bizarre. And it was just one of those things, her performance in that show is one where I'm like, I am not confident this always works. I am not confident this always works. I think it's perfectly calibrated here. And then she's also in the chilling adventress of Sabrina after. So like, she just always brings this sort of mania to all of her performances. Also, fun fact about her, she's married to Jack Davenport of coupling and Pirates the Caribbean fame.

Wow. Yeah. A lot of stealth spouses in this run of Doctor Who. But I remember looking that up when I first saw her in Green Wing. I was just like looking her up and I was like, oh, good job. of you, honestly. Great pull, both of you. But she, I just, I mean, I love the master always, and I'm actually quite happy that John Sim shows up at the end of all of this. It's really fun. But she's just next level, you know what I mean? And to bring that level of chaos and mischief and

fun. And then she does genuinely evil things. And you. You are with the doctor in the final season where you're like, I want this to work. I want you to be redeemed because not just because you are so fun to watch, but like wouldn't that energy, it's similar to Loki, like wouldn't that God of Mischief energy be so perfectly, you know, wielded for good? Like I want to see it used like, you know, to win the day. And I want to root for you. And like the show gives us a number of opportunities to root for you.

her when she shows up to like save the doctor at the beginning of the second season you know like it's just you know and and um i had forgotten how long they wait to let you know that she's the one in the vault yeah uh though i know you're very smart and you can figure it out yeah but like i um i was impatient i was like a little impatient watch i mean i love that season but i was just a little bit like open the vault open the vault like don't just bring the box don't don't just bring the takeout and talk to the door, open the vault. I want them, I want them to have more scenes together. So I just, you know, hats off to Stephen Moffitt, rightly or wrongly so, gets dinged a lot for the way that he writes women. And like, I don't even know if you could call Missy a woman

necessarily because she's just like an elemental creature. But this is one of my favorite things Moffitt has ever done is Missy. I love her. I also love Missy. I also love Missy. I thought this was extraordinary. I cherished every second. I would have loved more, but in a way, the dispensing of doses of Missy helped me maybe like appreciate

every moment even more fully. The oath and the standing guard by the vault, and like it was the other thing in addition is just how incredible the performances. I thought this was a great example of something. that really helps us think about

and, like, concretize the length of a time lord's life. And, like, the history that you share with somebody and how you could talk yourself back into something that you had, like, maybe told yourself that you had let go of because, like, if you're going to live for fucking ever, it's hard to stop thinking about the things you lost. So, like, the one who grieved or the one who lamented, it all feels very present here with the Missy character and the relationship and that idea of friendship

and wanting to believe. And I think like one of the things that was so great about the performance, especially at the end, you know, the final few episodes of season 10 is that there are moments where it doesn't seem like a minute, we're like, do we trust? The doctor is like, do I trust? But there are moments where it seems that Missy doesn't even know what decision she's going to make or why, you know, up with, on like, the rooftop sequence with the helicopter. And it's like the back and forth, the push, pull. He's like, was this your plan all along? And she was like, why complicate a good thing?

Does she even know? Like, genuinely does she even know if it was her plan all along? And I think that's a hard thing to pull off and make us exist in that space of uncertainty and also believe that the character does. I think, like, there were a number of beautiful exchanges, my favorite between them. And one of my favorites that we've gotten so far in the show was in The Eaters of Light, episode 10 of season 10. I don't even know why I'm crying.

Why do I keep doing that now? And then 12 says, I don't know. Maybe you're trying to impress me. Missy says, yes, probably some devious plan. That sounds about right. And then 12 says, well, the alternative would be much worse. Really? The alternative is that this is for real.

And it's time for us to become friends again. And then there's like the hand grasping. You feel how drawn they are to each other, like how badly they both want this, even though they're afraid of it and afraid, afraid specifically of wanting it. And the potential heartache and heartbreak that awaits on the other side of that. I don't know, 12 says, that's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist. Like that's the trouble with hope.

It's hard to resist. It's just an all-timer. It might be my favorite line. Not to spoil our superlatives. Maybe I'll pick something else when we get there. But that might be my favorite line from this run. I mean, it's a little bit of it. It's the hope that kills you, like, lassoism.

But I just love that idea. And I love thinking about it with these two characters, reflections of each other. Because if you're afraid to see that hope in your reflection, it means you're afraid to discover that hope inside of yourself. And that's like just a very sad thing to have to confront. But also, like, hope in the span of a lifetime. Well, what about hope in the span of a lifetime like this? this, you know, in a history like this and like how hard it would be to maintain, but also how it's even more essential because like what else do you have then? And what havoc do you reek on

the people around you if you can't maintain a tether to that hope at all? So I just loved that moment and I loved that they were getting each other to like think about these things. I thought was great. This is a genre trope that like maybe years down the line when we've burned through the more obvious tropes we might get to. But like this idea of like the two, the two, two immortals who, like, have hated each other, but no one can understand me the way that you do. And so then there's just, like, often winds up being this sort of, like, weary detaunt. But, like, that line she has, we're talking to Bill, I think it is. And she says, she says, time words are friends with each other, dear, everything else is cradle snatching.

Like, I just love that. So good. So good. So good. Oh, man. And then let's talk about my darling bill. Please. Please.

Asterisk and Nardahl is here also. I actually quite like Nardall. Oh, my God. Same. And that was a pleasant, really pleasant surprise to me in season 10 because while the Husbands of Riversong is a great episode of Nardels there, then Nardels on the next episode. And I was like, oh, boy. Is this a recurring thing inside of a subsequent episode that is not nearly as good?

How long is this going to happen? also I might just be in a little bit of the the great British bakeoff zone still. Matt Lucas is so interesting because I think he's a terrible bakeoff host and I am like makes it best on Little Britain, but I love him as Nardall. I was just so won over by Matt Lucas as Nardall in season 10. I just absolutely loved Nardal, loved. Also very Hara Sindula, Hara Sindula of like Nardal, Nardal, everybody pronouncing it slightly definitely over every episode.

But you know what's easy to pronounce? Bill. Bill Potts. Just another fucking great name in Doctor Who, Bill Potts. This is the stuff, Lionel. Let's hear a little taste of Bill. Two portions. One portion.

Is there going to be food sexism even in the future? Is this bloke utopia? That's so good. Is this bloke? Utopia. I love her. I love her introduction when she's called into his office when he's like, you know, so it's tantalizing as an idea for a character of like, here's a young woman. She works in the calf, but she's so intellectually curious. And he says that thing about like, when other people don't understand something, they frown and you smile. And he's,

and she just like catches his eye as someone who is like excited and curious. And as I've alluded to a couple times, this third season wasn't ever even really supposed to exist. There were a couple times when Moffitt was planning to hang it up. We got this email from our listener Matthew, who says, Moffitt, by all accounts, have been planning to finish his run after the husbands of River Song, an episode which wraps up the River Song arc and finishes with a happy ending for the doctor, phrasing. Instead, he stays on for another year because the next share runner had to complete his work on Broad Church. That's Chris Gibnal.

And a common question in the fandom at the time was, doesn't he look tired? Or how many variations of, quote, everybody lives or, quote, the girl who waited had we seen? Had Moffat run out of new ideas? Season 10 could have been Moffitt exhausted and running on fumes. Instead, we get an incredible injection of new energy into the show. and while not every episode is great, the season as a whole really stands up with one of the best finalies of the show,

giving closure to Missy's story, and one of the great body horror moments of the show when the cries of the patients are dealt with just by turning down the volume. So Bill, there's many multiverses in which the character of Bill Potts doesn't exist at all because Moffitt thought he was going to wrap it all up with Clare and the Doctor

and then his own creation of ever song and then call it a day. And then we get professor, doctor, we get this extended use of Nardle, and we get Bill fucking Potts, who I just love. And I like, again, I was covering the show for Vanity Fair at the time, so I got to, like, talk to Pearl Mackey a couple times. And I just, I also love her. I think she's phenomenal. She's just so, just like such an, like the freshest breath of air into the show. She's got that, like, enthusiasm and affection for the doctor.

but she's not like moony-eyed crushing on him. She's queer for one. Like she adores him, but it's not like that hero worship. She does call him out in that sort of not quite dawn away, but a little bit. And it's a very retro throwback to a doctor companion relationship, as signaled by the inclusion of the photo of Susan Foreman. The grandaw, the very first companion to the very first doctor, we get a photo of her on his desk and he's looking at it, you know, lingeringly and significantly

as he's talking to Bill about. Our eye is drawn. Yeah, I was talking to Bill about being her tutor. Bill, I just, so the thing about Bill, kind of universally beloved companion, so this is not an original opinion, but usually when you talk to, when you bring up someone like Bill, like every time I've talked to Arjuna about Bill and how excited I am I was for you to meet her or something like that, we'd be like, oh, Bill, terrible ending for Bill. Like, what a bummer of how it all went down for Bill in the end.

Oh, my God. And then everyone also is like, wish we had more time with Bill, wish we had more seasons with Bill. And I agree. Yeah, so give me your Bill thoughts, Mallory. Yeah, I, like many companions and characters on the show, was like waiting for the doctor to figure out something at the end so that that was not the way things went from.

for our dear Bill. I think you put it beautifully. I was instantly captivated by Bill Potts. I thought that this was a tremendous performance, a tremendous character. I loved the energy. I loved the vibe. I think right away we get so many little lines and moments

that signal what flavor we're about to get here. Like, we've mentioned a couple of them already, but Dr. What, as we cut to the intro, instead of Doctor Who, it's like a little thing, but it puts us off kilter in the best possible way, right? Like, you got to expect something a little. little bit different here. Or when she's like, is this a lift?

Yeah. I can go anywhere in the university? So knock through. And I had noted the line that you mentioned that they frown you smile because that feels so significant, not only that he spots that in her and see, like, that's somebody seeing you clearly, right? And like valuing a thing that is like essential about you. That's beautiful.

It's wonderful. That's the opposite of. toxic. That's incredible. But also just the fact that that is true about Bill and how quickly that is put into action. Like, I just, it's so winning in the first few episodes how inquisitive Bill is and how much Bill wants to learn and know and understand, but also how, like, comfortable Bill is with, like, the natural rhythm of life and the passage of time. You know, I was really, I thought it was really notable that some of the things that are, like, like day one new companion checklist items

are things that Bill learns way later, like the telepathic TARDIS field translating. You know, it's not until we're with the Romans in Scotland that Bill is piecing together, that she's speaking Latin and that the Roman soldier understands. I happen so much later comparatively to when like a companion normally learns

how some of the magic and the science of the TARDIS works or like what Bill learns about the doctor's history and like Galephrey. I think there's just a lot, the dispensing and parceling out of those are happening later or like, it's like a time release capsule instead of like, here's the day one download.

And I think that could, again, it's an example of like a really like deaf execution because I think you could say, well, does that track? Like if this is the most inquisitive companion and somebody who's eager to learn and explore and examine and know, like would it take that long for Bill to like learn

that the TARDIS translates, but I don't know, it worked so well for me because part of what makes Bill Bill is the comfort and the confidence finding things when they're meant to be found, you know? And like I just really, I really loved that. And also Bill's just cool. Like Bill's cool and fun. And it's great to spend time with Bill and we want what is best for Bill. I was shattered beyond repair when we got to where there's tears. There's hope in the doctor falls in episode 12 of season 10. That was just absolutely, well, like, Bill, yeah, Bill processing, like, everyone's going to be afraid of me for the rest of my life, you know what I mean? Like, horrible. Just horrifying. Just like really

waited 10 years, miss the doctor by, like, you know. Deeply, deeply sad. Deeply sad. And I also would have loved more more time with Bill. Yeah. Speaking of Bill, we don't need to linger too long because I don't know that I have a brilliant answer. It's just something that I want to put out there. Maybe one of our brilliant listeners has a great take, or maybe you do. But I think it's interesting that the Cybermen both in, I mean, okay, so I'll say this. And again, this might have been the corners of the internet that I was frequenting, but as we talked about various elements of representation on Doctor Who, I think it was notable

and disappointing that like two prominent black characters in a row were trying to decide. Cybermen, first Danny and then Bill. I was just like, that's not my favorite thing that has happened. The Cybermen showing up as major antagonists in the Capaldi run when we had been so Dalek focused for so long, I thought was interesting. And I was wondering, do you have any theories about what it says about this doctor or what's on Moffat's mind other than, like, okay, we've done the Daleks. let's do something else that put the Cybermen at the at the fore here.

It's an interesting question. I don't know. I mean, I guess like on the one hand, I think that obviously the Cybermen are there at the end of the first season and the third season in like just like this incredibly prominent fashion. I think that one of the more impactful villain-centric aspects of the Capaldi run for me was the Davros interaction with the doctor. Maybe I'll save some of, no, you know what? I'm not going to hit this in Sperlives because I probably have another pick coming for villains. So maybe we can quickly talk about it here.

But I thought like those conversations in the magician's apprentice about, and this is, of course, what sparks the hybrid plot that is the through line of that season. But like those conversations about compassion and the idea of like compassion is your weakness, but also this question of the hybrid and what part of you do you put into another person, etc. was really interesting and I thought that stuff like seeing Davros as a kid and realizing that the doctor had had this interaction with kid

scared kid Davros stuck in the battlefield was like incredible. So, you know, we had a big dolic plot certainly but yeah, the Cyberman, I mean, I guess there's this aspect of like connecting to the hybrid idea still because human cybermen, you know,

are you more than one thing? Does someone make you more than one thing, do they weaponize you in some way? Memory, you know, identity holding on to something inside of you. Yeah. And there's like another real throughline across these seasons I thought was truth, you know, like in part because of the confession dial and the role that that plays, which we'll talk about more when we talk about heaven sent, but the hybrid is connected to truth, the idea of the oath with the vault. Like there's a lot about truth the monks. the cybermen are like definitionally a lie because they are encasing something hidden. So I think they connect.

Maybe they felt like a, maybe they felt like an apt villain for unlocking some of that. But I was like, I was kind of shocked that we wound up with a set, two of three like final season arcs centered around the cybermen. I was like, this is sort of strange. Yeah. Almost to the point where we want to hop in the TARDIS and buzz by a few key episodes that we've, all of which we've shouted. it out, but hey, that's showbiz. But we do want to take a pause and just note that Stephen Moffat, for all of his sins and all of his greatness, is the king of the Christmas special because last Christmas, which gives us

Santa. Oh, yeah, is really fun. The Hussons of River Song, and then the return of Dr. Mysterio happens. But, like, anyway, like, these are great Christmas specials that Moffitt gives this. And I loved last Christmas. Oh, I love that episode. Yeah. It's a great episode.

Fantastic. Really good sci-fi concept. Super creepy dream crabs drinking your brain through their penetrating straw. Great to see the waif. You had texted me an out-of-context picture of the way of the Christmas itinerary, the to-do list that had, like, Thrones Marathon on there. But you didn't tell me which character was going to be connected to it. So that was delightful.

But yeah, the Christmas specials are so good. Nick Frost is Santa. It's great. Fantastic. And that idea of like, you know what the problem is in telling fantasy and reality apart? What? They're both ridiculous. But also like just the inception like aspect of dreams within dreams.

And do you understand reality? That was a really fun one. Them explaining alien to the doctor. And he's like, you have a horror movie called. alien, that's offensive. No wonder why they keep invading you. That's definitely on my shortlist for potential funniest moment picks. That killed me. That's so funny. And before we go, since you already brought up the waif, the great Faye Marseille, watch Pride if you've never seen it. Incredible. We talked about Maisie. We talked about Faye Marseille. Any other Thrones actors that you want to

shout out showing up where you're like, oh, hey. Well, not totally the same as being in a Pompeii episode and then being the 12th Doctor for three seasons. But David Bradley's back, folks. Making a return inside of Doctor Who, our second run with David Bradley. This was more satisfying getting to see David Bradley play an earlier version of the doctor than it was to see him play a dinosaur smuggler in a spaceship. In essence. So that was fun. Donald Sumpter always a treat. Mastor Lewin, yeah. Put me on my heels to be rooting against Mastor Lewin as a evil and controlling time lord. I was like, but it's Mastroluen who I love and would die for.

How dare you? Frankly, how dare you? One of my favorite pop quiz hotshot moments that I had with you before you started watching the season is I said, because I had forgotten. I sent you the photo of Paul K. and his prosthetics, good old Thoris of Mir. And I was like, which Doctor Who actor do you think this is? And you named every single Doctor Who actor that ever was. You like, you can't.

You can not tell at all that this is our guy, Thoros. And then getting to why, I was like, maybe I'll see it when I'm watching moving pictures instead of just looking at a screenshot that Joe texts me. No, he is so obscured beneath the makeup and the process. Asthetics is wild. You can be a little bit of the crinkle around the eye, maybe, the Hallmark crinkle. Google Paul K-A-Y-E, Dr. Who, and then tell me that you can see Thoris of Mirr underneath there. You simply cannot. Impossible. The delightful to be with Paul Kay is always.

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Should we go into the episodes? All right. We have picked one, two, three, four, five with a smuggle of a sixth episode to zip through here at the end. We've already shouted out most of these. So we're just going to zip through this. But season nine, episode 11 and 12, Heaven Sent and Hell Bent. Heaven Sent, I think, is widely considered to be, if not the best,

then the second behind blank in terms of iconic Doctor Who episodes. I think it also helps, to our point about the grief, Heaven Sent being the episode wherein the doctor is trapped inside the confession denial and has to go through a loop to figure out, A, what's going on, B, punch his way through, rock, heart, than Diamond and takes him, what is it, four billion years?

Is that right? Four and a half. Four and a half billion years. To get through it. You don't necessarily need to know what's going on. Like, I think this is a WHO episode you could in theory, watch in isolation,

mainly because Capaldi sells the grief about Clara without us needing to know really anything. about Clara. And I think I want to start with this clip of, you know, Jenna Coleman. This was a surprise appearance. Like everyone thought Jenna Coleman was done with show. And then she showed up here, not just the back of her head, but the lady herself. Carlos, will you play this clip, please? But I can remember. You don't understand. I can remember it all. Every time. Whatever I do, you still won't be there. You are not the only person who ever lost someone.

It's the story of everybody. Get over it. Beat it. Doctor, it's time off your ass and win. This is also on the list of episodes I feel like people put this on the list of like episodes I feel like video games. And also this is really high on the list of actually like a very cheap episode of Doctor Who. Similar to like something like midnight. which is nonetheless, like extremely, extremely effective.

And then hellbent is the payoff of the promise of Galfei returning in the anniversary special. So we get like full, silly-collar, weird politics time lord stuff. Not necessarily exactly how I thought the whole Galfrey thing was going to pay off. But as we mentioned before, Meister Lewins here. So that's exciting. But we get that frame narrative, that really mournful Clara frame narrative that makes Hell Bent. really, really, uh,

hit. What do you want to say about heaven sent and hellbent that we have not already? Marlurban. I will wait

until we finish our rewatch, I think, to like, lock in my list of top, you know, three or five or whatever favorite episodes. And as always,

I reserve the right to change my mind at any point, including on subsequent rewatches because one of the things I've really found myself thinking about after watching these seasons is like, the Capaldi seasons is,

I, 10 is my, favorite doctor still, but I could see, like, really wanting to, I could see being in different points in my life and that having a bearing on which doctor I felt like I wanted to spend my time with most. And I think with those caveats issued and the right to change my mind, reserved, I think Heaven Sent is my favorite episode of Doctor Who. I thought this was extraordinary, like just absolutely extraordinary. And Hellbent was, I thought the, the, Clara,

Dr. strumming his guitar, framing of hellbent, much more so than the actual Galifrey aspect, like you're saying, was, but it just felt like such a satisfying conclusion for their arc. I was so deeply moved so many times across these two episodes,

but I think that Heaven Sent specifically, and I'm really interested in us talking more, maybe in the future, if this does hold up as my favorite, and Midnight is your favorite, what it means that our two favorite episodes of Doctors Who

don't really feature the companion, given how companion-centric our journeys seem to be, I think that's fascinating. So maybe we can dive into that a little bit more in the future, but I think that this was,

feels like my favorite, but certainly no matter what would be like among my top, you know, two or three favorites at the end of all things. It has everything I want out of a Doctor Who episode, and I think much like Midnight,

much like Blink. It is so high constant. that to pull it off to execute it well is just, I think, like a singular achievement. The final like 15 minutes of Heaven's Sent when we are cutting in and out of the repeating loop that the doctor is on and figuring out what has happened, what is happening, the horror, the dawning realization that every one of those skulls is his, the cutting to the top of the tower as the timeline builds. 7,000, 12,000 to 6,000. The real pain, the real, real pain that he's feeling every time.

All you need for energy is something to burn. And like, for that, something to be you. I mean, and I'm just not sure that there's like a more chillingly, but perfectly delivered line than how could there be other prisoners in my hell? Like, I, it was just, like, exquisite. I thought this was just absolutely exceptional. And the payoff of the story of the bird, like, I think that's a hell of a bird. He punches through. It's like, yes, that's our doctor. And then, of course, like, the horror of realizing that this is how the confession dial was used and, like, the perversion of the sanctity of, like, your last will and testament and you're

the torment that is built specifically for you, for processing, being used as a torture chamber to try to get you to confess a truth that you don't want to share and maybe even aren't ready to, like, confront yourself. just was brilliant. I absolutely loved it. Another all-time banger is next. And instead of saying what it is, I'm just going to have Carlos play the clip. Carlos, we play this. God knows where he is right now.

But I promise you, he's doing whatever the hell he wants and not giving a dab about me. And I'm just fine with that. When you love the doctor, it's like loving the stars themselves. You don't expect a sunset to admire you back. And if I happen to find myself in danger, let me tell you, the doctor is not stupid. stupid enough or sentimental enough, and he is certainly not in love enough to find himself standing in it with me. You are so doing those roots.

But the roots of the sunset. Don't you dare. I'll have to check with the stars themselves. The reason I let that clip run longer... Okay, we are in The Husbands of River Song, one of the greatest episodes of television that has ever existed. Probably my favorite Christmas special, just a phenomenal episode of television. The reason I let it run longer than people usually do, they usually cut it off at Hello Sweetie, is because their little like screwball comedy banter after is another, this episode is both so sentimental and also so just like zany and fun and zippy and funny. You get the great, we already mentioned Matt Lucas is here.

You get the great, great Davies is also here, another comedian that I love. And then you just get like fucking hijinks galore, heists and crime and all this sort of stuff. And then we get to watch what is Riversong like when she doesn't think the doctor is watching her is such a fun idea for an episode of television. And like we got this great long email from Andrea that I'm not going to, or Andrea, I'm so sorry, I don't know how to pronounce name, which I'm not going to read right now just because we're running a little long. But thank you so much for this email. But it echoed exactly what I think about this episode, which is when I voice my frustrations with River Song and the Matt Smith era, I was just thinking about this in contrast because, like, I think the lack of what I deem the lack of actual chemistry between those two performers. And then you see, you know, I don't agree. But yes, you feel it differently here.

And then you see like, Kepauli and like Alex Kingston, and you're like, Jesus Christ. And then more importantly than the chemistry question is the treatment of River Song by the 11th Doctor and all the ways in which she like supplicates herself for his importance and all this sort of stuff and the way that Stephen Moffat again, I think being reactive to those critiques flips the script very much so in this episode.

And so you just get like fun comedy verres misunderstandings, the doctor being jealous, the doctor being insecure. And then the doctor just, giving her the gift of telling her, I do love you. I do care about you in a way that the 11th doctor, yeah, the 11th doctor does a bit at the end, but not in a way that satisfies me.

Not like this. So, yeah. I loved this episode. I thought this was wonderful. I think you perfectly captured why. The fact that River doesn't recognize him felt like such a master stroke to me because it really, it's an embodiment of a lot of what you're identifying. And like for the doctor who would just expect her to know it's him and sense it's him and how could

she not know it's me, the great love of her life and the most important figure in the universe, it's like, actually it's not all about you either all the time. And like, it was a nice balancing of the scales that like he had to earn from her something that she always had to earn from him. I really liked that. I really, really liked that. And then the final couple minutes, as they're standing out looking at the towers, just like, unbelievable. I mean, to the chemistry point that you mean, when he turns and looks at her, oh, my God.

Like, to just know the quality of sex they had for the next 24 years based on what passed in that glance is a very satisfying thing. Indeed. Oh, yes. Indeed. Perfectly deployed, Carlos. Yeah. Beautiful. I completely agree.

say, as with all things river song, if you think too hard about the timey whyminess of it, I'm not sure that I'm not sure I can connect the dots between this river who is like pretty sure she's about to die with the river that we meet in her initial episodes with David Tennant. But I'm willing to ignore it because the rest of this episode is so good. Let's hear a little clip from the final moments between the two of them on the balcony. Nobody really understands where the music comes from. It's probably something to do with the precise positions, the distance between both towers.

Even the locals aren't sure. All anyone will ever tell you is that when the wind stands fair and the night is perfect, when you least expect it, but always when you need it the most. Incapable of watching that scene without crying. It's so good. I think it's so beautiful. shout out the Murray Gold

you know choral music behind as well but I when Stephen Moffat gets so up his own ass about language like the whole

Amy Pond River song thing and I roll my eyes this is the exact opposite of that when he just says like there is a song and I just start crying it's so beautiful it's beautiful

also when the wind stands fair is just like stunning I, the thing that we can't capture in just the audio clip, shout out podcasts, is in that pause, in the, but always when you need it most, there is a song buildup and pause. The way that he is looked, like the side eye, the way that he, he's shy. He's nervous.

The doctor is shy. Like there's a moment where he is not sure. He's vulnerable. And like, it just felt so meaningful the history between them. And I think the other thing that was beautiful about it is like the beginning of that exchange looking out at the towers was also, I thought, lovely and really compelling times and river because they have to, because there's no such thing as happy ever after. It's just a lie we tell ourselves because the truth is so hard. And she says, no, doctor, you're wrong. Happy ever after doesn't mean forever. It just means

time, a little time. But that's not the sort of thing you could ever understand. understand, is it? And then when we build toward the how long is a night on Dorillium, 24 years, it's like a moment where he can show somebody that he does, like that he actually does understand that it is just about time and finding that time to be with another person and granting them the gift of your time and return. Like it's just, yeah, as wonderful. The romantic gesture of like waiting for the restaurant to be built, all of that. And then like, And then also we should say, Alex Kington, Kingston looks so hot in this episode. I mean always.

She gets to wear like all these incredible gowns. She just looks amazing. I just, I love this episode. I just started crying while we were talking about it. It's so good. I mean, silence of the library and Farce of the Dead. That was season four, 2008. Like, oh my God.

What a payoff at the end. All right. last but not least season 10 episodes 11 and 12 World Enough in Time and the Doctor Falls and then also we're just going to smuggle in like the doctor's last scene which comes

in the special that comes after the finale but this is a good chance to talk a bit more about Missy we say goodbye to her here and to the doctor and to Bill to Narnal but I like so this question

of the missy as a mirror of that question of like am i a good man which is a question that the doctor asked in his second episode to clara he says to clara answer the answer to my next question which must be honest and cold and considered without kindness or restraint clara be my pal and tell me am i good man clara says i don't know but he says neither do i and like in that episode into the dolic second episode of capaldi's run a dalek isn't so inspired by the doctor's hatred for the Daleks. Like, it's just bad times when your worst side is the source of inspiration for, like, the most lethal type of character in the Whoaverse, right? Like, not great. Not what you want. And so this is an ongoing question. Like, you can decide for yourself whether or not this is like inconsistency or whatever

for him to come to the conclusion at the end of season eight, whether or not I'm a good man doesn't matter. That's what he decides then. But he's back on his, Am I a Good Man shit in season 10? And this is what he says to Bill and Nardall about Missy. Carlos, we play this clip.

She's my friend. She's my oldest friend in the universe. Well, you got lots of friends. Better ones. What's so special about her? She's different. Different how? I don't.

No. Yes, you do. She's the only person I've ever met who's even remotely like me. So more than anything, you want her to be good. Are you having an emotion? I know I can help her. Yeah.

Look at that face. He's having an emotion. Yeah. Yes, look at that bit. Yeah, he's doing emotion. Oh, leave him alone. Go ahead. I'll take a selfie with you.

Oh, Nardle. So good. Darling Nardle. Love him. Nardle and his plaid outerware wonderful stuff. It's incredible. What do you want to say about this idea of Missy as if I can prove that she is good,

then I am good. Yeah, this is the doctor's scared as a superpower. Because what does wanting Missy to be good this desperately, that he would take an oath to guard her vault for a thousand years of reform and giving Missy these chances, crisps present or not,

when other people tell you that you shouldn't? What does that mean? What does it mean? side of the same coin of wanting Missy to be good. It's being afraid that you're bad. It's fearing that sameness that you see in yourself

and like fearing what you're capable of. So I just, I think that's part of the tragedy of the doctor not getting to find out what choice Missy makes at the end. It's like to not get that final piece and beat of affirmation.

Like Missy chose to help. Missy chose to stand with me and like what does the absence of that knowledge mean moving forward? Well, what I like for that is that, and like, again, eat your heart out, Loki and Sylvie, the master and missy together is delight. When we say toxic in a bad way, we mean Clara and the doctor. We say toxic in a great way. We mean the master and Missy.

Did you, okay, I know that you are like, you're one of the sharpest TV watchers I know. One of my like most brilliant pals. did John Sims prosthetics and accent fool you? Did I spoil you with it by putting his name in the dock? Like, what was your experience? No, I try not to read ahead in the dock. I look at what you wrote after I watched an episode. So, you know, River, one of the many gifts that River Song has given me is spoilers.

You know, I'm always on my guard in the dock. It's just so clearly a prosthetic, a facial prosthetic, that much like who is in the vault, you're like, well, who is under? this mask, somebody. Who's under this accent? Yeah, it's like a kind of short list of characters who would make the most sense and have the most impact in that way. That said, nothing diminished the impact of Johnson's returning and the master being there.

I will save some of my commentary for one of my superlative picks, but I will just say that watching The Master and Missy together, when we say sometimes on pods, like I could just simply watch these two people in scenes. the rest of my life and never tire of it, this will be one of my new go-to examples. One of my favorite, outside of what I think is going to wind up in your superlatives, I'm sure you know. Is when they get up in the plane and like Johnson says to, the master says to Nardall, the doctor's dead and he said he never liked you.

And then Missy comes up, this is the exact same thing. So good. So funny. And then the flip side, of course, of that delayed is the heartbreak we've already talked about, the ending for Bill. really devastating. I am glad. I do like the way that they did it. It was a little bit of a repeat of Clara is a Dalic. Doesn't know she's a Dalic from her introduction. But like I didn't mind because it meant we got to see Pearl Mackey's face for longer and that, you know, just felt

important and she's just so good. And I love that. And so for the doctor to lose Bill to fail to get Missy to stand with him in that moment, even though she's, intends to come back and stand with him later, then what we get, and this is satisfying to me narratively, thematically, what we get at the end is the doctor who has frantically been searching for his worth and his value and his goodness in the mirrors of the people around him, be it Clara or be it a bill to a certain extent or be it Missy, is a doctor who has to stand alone without quote without hope, without witness, without reward. Like, that gave me a chill without hope, without witness without reward, an absolute full body chill. And like, I think that ties into the

Shielder question as well, because like, saving a Shielder is one of those moments that's like, look at me, I'm a hero, right? Like, regard me, I'm a hero. And this is without hope, without witness, without reward, right? They're doing like a little magnificent seven, or a Bugs Life, if you prefer, a storyline here. And here he is. Doing doing, doing, the best that he can do when he can do it. And that's a beautiful thing. It really is.

This was all great. Very San Juanaperoi with Bill returning. And it's like, I am real. I am Bill. I have my memories. What more do you need to be a person? And the doctor's like real struggle with that. I don't.

It's not my favorite part about twice upon a time. But I do love, I do love how much the first doctor just like roast the 12th doctor. It's like really funny. Also 12's absolutely. mortification that like he used to say those things. So funny. Good stuff.

And then let's, you know, as it's tradition on these rewatches, let's hear the doctor's final words. Carlisley plays this. La fart. Unfast. Shout out again, Mary Gold. But I think it's so fun to compare the relative economy of the Russell T. Davies goodbyes from his doctors versus the Moffitt doctors who get, because that is the end of a very very long monologue that Capaldi does is on his way out the door.

I like these long. I like it too. I like it too. Eleven's amazing. This was great. I let you go. What a... I let you go.

What a loaded and perfect. After a doctor who does not want to regenerate. Yeah. Wonderful. Superlatives. All right. Let's blast through these superlatives. And before we say goodbye to Capaldi.

Favorite line, Mallory Rubin. Oh, torn. I'm going with, oh, narrowly edging out. That's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist. I'm going with nothing sad till it's over than everything is because it just feels like it cuts to the heart of a thing I'm constantly saying to you on pods about that. That's my pick.

How about you? I also have two, I'm of two minds about this. One is, you already mentioned it, I think that's one hell of a bird. It's just a great line. But I think it has to be who frowned me this face, which is just like so Shakespearean that I spent literally an hour trying to Google if this was like drawn from anything. It's like, as you said, when the wind stands fair, like there are these moments of highly, highly elevated language.

And then who found me this face is. both so good. And in the tradition of Shakespeare, then you can, you know, it's like, oh, the to be or not to be speech, or what a piece of work of man's speech, or like, whatever. You can say the,

who frown me this face speech? And I just think it's iconic. All right, best villain. I mean, come on. It's messy. Yeah, it's hard to beat Missy. If I have to pick a one-off, it might be David Soucher's

Poirot himself as the landlord from hell. Because I just love, like, what a mysterious little weirdo he is, tapping his tuning fork into the wall. So, yeah. Incredibly upsetting episode. Creaky houses unsettle me. Beatles really upset me.

Okay. Best fit. Okay. We've spent a lot of wonderful time together today, but I do think we have been remiss in one area, and it's this. We have not spent enough time toasting 12's overall fashion sense, which is extraordinary. Exemplary. The velvet and velour jackets, the sweaters, the tails with. holes in them.

Oh yeah. That tatty jacket is so good. Fantastic. That evolution into the rocker in season nine and then Hot Prof in season 10. Inside of all of this just absolute splendor, my favorite look is

the opening look of season 10. The boots, the black pants, the hoodie, the blazer, the longer hair, specifically in the pilot episode, the episode called the pilot, when he's got the long dark, like the long,

dark outer coat, this like rusty cranberry hoodie, the black shirt underneath and then the red shirt with the cuffs poking out under that. It's like Josh Aronson and Chris Ryan bow down to this layering. Not even they, the layer kings. And the way he worked to that lecture, that lecture stage in this bit. That Josh Harrison reference is like an elite reference from you. And I loved it. Thank you. So that's my pick. I just thought. it was amazing. My runner-up is the like dark maroon coat from heaven scent. That plush velvet

just fantastic with the buttons. I have to go with the season 9 premiere guitar on the tank but more crucially the window pane plaid pants. Those are like that's some of my top tier favorite pants of all time on anyway. It's either

I have two favorite pants which are like those window pain like plaid pants I believe that's what they're called or the red plaid pants that like people like if you can get away with those like the dream of the 90s is alive on your body and I love that. Okay. Best guest star. I know we don't agree on this one, but I am going with our. Yeah. I just because I did. Yeah. I liked the I liked the I liked the, I liked the text that her character. I like you supporting Maisie. Unlocked for us. I support you supporting Maisie. Do you ever think or care what happens after you've flown away? I live in

the world you leave you leave behind. So good. Great. Good. What about you? Toss up between, and I know we agree on this, Tom Riley is Hot Robin Hood. I mean, there's never been an unhot Robin Hood, but like especially, like very charming, dashing. Remarkable. Robin Hood. Or a comedian that I love, Frank Skinner, who shows up as sort of like a pseudo-companion on the Mummy on the Orient Express episode. he's like just a really good foil for Kapali's energy and the 12th doctor tries to recruit him and he's like no thank you you're you're disturbing

but I just thought Frank Skinner just like brought something like really fun and offbeat to that so I was a fan all right horniest moment say it with me the master wanting to fuck Missy yeah getting an erection that's Missy pins him against, and yes, it is, a wooden beam. It is a wooden beam.

And the way that he looks down at his own throbbing boner, as he says, by the way, is it wrong that I? And that she says, yes, very. And the subtitles go to gulps. Oh, my gosh. Incredible. Ironic. Can't be topped. Can't be matched. We agree, of course.

Okay, this is a tough one for me because the budget is no longer what it was when this category first announced. Hardest to figure out by far. Cringiest low budget moment. I do have an answer, but. Me too. But it wasn't like some of the other House of Food Pods where I was like, here are my 27 nominees. Exactly. I'm going with Wooden Eliza, Joe.

Oh, that's a good one. From knock, knock. That's a good one. because of the wooden shaming head. Yes. It is specifically

the nest of like wood shaving wicker string on her head as her wooden mouth and is leaking out. I do not understand. Oh God.

Yeah, that's my pick. That's my pick. What about you? That's a really good one. I mean, it's not fair because they're using an old like character design but the Zygons.

Like, the Zygons just look dumb, but like, by design. But also I just want to shout out, like, actual, like, low budget. Like, the veil in heaven scent is just a sheet on someone. You know what I mean? And, like, a bunch of flies. And it is amazing. It's the opposite of cringe. But I'm just like, that's inventive low budget.

There's a lot of people in suits in this season, which I quite enjoy. But there's also a lot of characters that are essentially just, like, another version of the silence. Like the monks are basically just the silence, but that's fine. Funniest moment. Okay. We already mentioned there's a horror movie called Haley and that's really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you, so I'll go elsewhere.

I have three contenders. One, he's been raising that eyebrow for a week. Yes. So funny. Really good. But also, I did enjoy. I got a kick out of the. the recurring bit of the doctor having to turn to the index cards.

Clara had made him for like how to navigate human interaction. So when in under the lake, they're like, Moran was our friend and she has to guide him toward the cards. And then he says, he basically pulls a Ron Burgundy and just reads right off the telepromptory. He's like, I'm very sorry for your loss. I'll do all again to solve the death of your friend slash family member slash pet. That killed me.

And my final nominee is now I've read a lot of books that this chair would be quite useful for Moby Dick, honestly, shut up and get to the whale. Killed me. Great stuff. Shut up and get to the whale is just sensational. Genuinely, if you've never read Moby Dick, it's like two-thirds of the book before you get to the whale, maybe more. In this episode, here's my funniest moment. River Song says, it's a time machine.

I could take it, do whatever I want, whatever I want for as long as I have. like, and pop it back a second later, he'll never know it was gone. The doctor says, yes, he will. How? Well, he'll just know. Well, he's never noticed before. Maybe he'll notice now. I mean, it's just like, so good, really funny.

Delightful. What a joy. Just watching Peter Capaldi process that Riversong has been stealing his TARDIS for years without him knowing is just absolutely delightful. No notes. All right, most emotional moment. Other than having to say goodbye to Hot Robin Hood after just one episode, which I am still working through my grief.

It's a two-way tie for me. It is the doctor spending millions of years trying to get back to Clara and the beautiful agonizing speech where he realizes what is happening and what he is having to do and telling us the last part of the shepherd's boy, the story of the bird. or it's River and the doctor staring at the tower, sharing those beautiful moments that we already heard. Those were the two where I was just like, just awed and just felt so deeply watching both of those stretches in those two episodes.

So I love that. And the episode in between had a candidate too. I think like realizing the doctor doesn't remember Clara and like going back to that beginning opening scene of the episode is the sad song. And he's like, I know. I know. Yeah. And you realize like he doesn't know who he's talking to.

Those are, that's a three-way race, man. It's tough. Third shout out to Murray Gold when he's playing Clara's theme on his guitar, like her, the, ugh, it kills me. I also have a two-way tie, and it is between the river and the doctor, looking at the towers of Duriam. And it is this, I mean, everything that happens with Bill at the end, but she, chiefly this moment when the master is trying to goad her and you see like cyber bill say like, I'm not upset and then you cut to like seeing human bill

and she's like weeping silently. Agonizing. Devastating. Agonizing. What a great show, Dr. Hood. So good. This was fun. I can't believe we're on our last rewatch pod after this.

I'm desponded. And a quick update from scenes of a moment. marriage. I got a voicemail from Mallory last night that Capaldi is now her, her beloved spouse, Adams, a doctor. This was a twist not because I'm like, wait, what? I think he quality was exceptional, but he gave me no indication while we were watching that this was happening. I thought he stopped because he was in a town when you had to watch like a whole season. He missed a few. I think it's, he did miss the end of the first season. So like, okay. That helped. Yeah.

Probably. You were like Adam's out of town. I have to watch all these episodes. I was like, oh, no, we lost Adam on the doctor. No, he came right back in. And he's going to catch up on the few he missed. But yeah, he just, we finished last night, and he was like, move over 11. And I said, I literally need you to stop speaking to me so that I can grab my phone.

We can record your testimony for Joanna. Who's interviewing who, he said, in the voice movie. You said, delightful scenes for a marriage update for you guys. All right, we will be back. Can't wait. At some point as yet to be determined in November to talk about Jody Whitaker and all of her episodes. The homework for that is all the rest of the existing episodes of Doctor Who until the 60th anniversary special. We're so excited for that.

We will be back on Monday to talk Loki, episode four, some major developments there. Invincible as well next week. This episode was produced by Carlos Chirboga, additional production work and general Doctor Who support from Regina Raqbal. Social support from Jomey at Dineron. And listen, Mallory, I get to see your face with my face in like less than 48 hours. And that's really thrilling to me. I can't wait.

Where there's tears, there's hope. Bye!