House of R - The 'Doctor Who' Rewatch (Part 6): The Thirteenth Doctor

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

The Time Lord has come in the form of Jodie Whittaker, so Joanna and Mal are here to dive deep into the era of the thirteenth Doctor. They cover Seasons 11 through 13 of the beloved BBC series in Part 6 of their 'Doctor Who' Viewing Guide (9:54). Then, they have some superlatives for all the Doctors they’ve covered as they look forward to David Tennant’s return (1:19:05). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts.

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This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. No matter how many times you try, no matter how long you wait, I'll always be in your way, backed up by the best of humanity. Now, final, final, final warning, because I'm nice. I really do try my best. Stop this signal, get off this planet. You are not my command, huh? I tried. You heard me, right? I tried. I gave it a chance. You did. You did.

I'm fast enough, right? I'm fast enough. for this plan? Probably. Possibly. Well, that one needs work. Here's a new year message for you to send. Earth is protected by me and my mates this year and every other. We are last Doctor Who rewatch podcast.

What's up, Bad Babies? I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today. My companion for life. My companion for these podcasts. My master, my doctor, my everything. It's Mallory Rubin. Hello, Mallory.

Joanna, you pursued Mrs. Doctor without a care for my presence, belittled my thoughts and opinions, and then proceeded to use my person as a human shield. Wow. She's referencing the Lord Byron episode already. I'm thrilled to be here with Mallory Rubin. Hello. Oh, my gosh.

I got to text me. Can I tell the folks that I got to text from you last night, a photo text, can I tell them about it? Sure. Yeah. There you were. Looking beautiful. Your hair, glorious, sitting on your house.

I don't know about all that. Beautiful eyes. Dewey, a red rim. You were crying because you had finished your Doctor Who. Rewatched Journey. How are you feeling about it? I'm honestly, like, really emotional about it. I'm so happy to be here with you today, as always.

I don't know. It just hit me so hard last night when I finished. I, we started this many months ago. And I believe I have watched 175 episodes of Doctor Who this calendar year. In all your fair fucking time. And it just, it just hit me in like the way that it hits you when you reach the end of a thing where you have that first wave of like despair. that it's over, and obviously we have a lot of great quotes from the Doctor Who universe about that idea. And then immediately that feeling of joy, not only that new episodes await mere days from now,

let us pretend that it was always our plan to finish the rewatch pod on the precipice week of of a new release so that we didn't have to wait very long at all. but also just that sense of certainty that I will like revisit these episodes. You know, I already can't wait to go back and spend time with Rose and Ten and Donna and on and on. The list goes. And that was like a really beautiful, wonderful feeling. So it was just emotional to be at the end of this journey, but also realize that it's not the end at all. And then I get to share it with you. I'm so excited.

I'm thrilled for you. that the timing worked out this way, that you finished one thing. And then we just have like a couple days. We're recording this on a Tuesday. You'll hear it a little later. And then by Saturday, we have new who. And I've waited so long. I've waited so long for 10.

And you're like, look at you. No waiting. Here you go. I'm jealous. Awesome. Let's talk about some program reminders before we get into everything. We are like who centric for the next few weeks. We are doing a lot of Who coverage.

Mondays will be when we will be checking in with the various anniversary specials that we are getting. We're also going to be covering The Boy in the Heron is a plan that we have to do some Miyazaki coverage. And then we've got some other like year-end treats for you coming up. So all leading into the big end of year, Percy Jackson, what if? Bunch stuff. Listen, content of arrest and nor do we. Aquam! Oh, sorry.

Mallory's most perfect desire for us to podcast about Awkwifew. man from a body of water. So I don't know. I just believe in my body and my soul that if the wider Bachelor universe can find ways to give us a number of episodes set in front of waterfalls. Now, can you hear a thing that people say in those episodes? You cannot. Is that a challenge that we could perhaps seek to solve?

Do we tune into the Bachelor for dialogue? Is that what we're here for? When are you going to send me your latest thoughts on the Golden Bachelor? I am eagerly awaiting them. That would imply that I watched beyond the little bit that I watched just for you. So I didn't. All right. Elsewhere, ring or verse.

They're doing invisible coverage. Button MASH is doing another game swap for games we missed. I love when buttonmashes game swaps. Mint Edition's going to do some animation awards. There's just like a lot going on over there. They got everything. Midnight Boys, Min Edition, Button Mashed. Don't miss a thing.

What I would suggest, I'm like, correct me if I'm wrong, that people should subscribe to House of R to Ringherverse. Why not travel by content while you're subscribing to Ringer Podcasts? Maybe PrestiGTV, we're covering the Crown, the Curse, and Soon Fargo.

I mean, there's a lot going on over there. Why not? Why not subscribe to all of them? What else can folks do, Malaray, to keep on top of everything? As soon as you have followed the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, then why don't you follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing.

The Ringerverse is on Instagram. The Ringerverse is on Twitter. Twitter. The Ringerverse is on TikTok. We're everywhere. Check it out. Some holiday goodness coming. There's a video series from Charles and Jomi, Aaron currently, waiting for you.

Is it hates giving? Is that what they're calling it? Indeed. So good. It's so good so far. I've only seen one up, but it was delightful. It'll be a daily holiday treat. Yeah. And then of course, keep in mind, this holiday season, any season, you can send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com.

Not doctors and companions at gmail.com. Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Not Tardis and Sonic. Oh, I was going to say Sonic and psychic for like the screwdriver in the paper. but I wasn't sure if it would play. Speaking of the emails, we had great emails about everything all the time. You guys are incredible. But I won't be reading any of them out, but I just want to acknowledge

and thank you for all the emails that we got from the bad babies. What's up, bad babies, who are watching Doctor Who for the first, watching for the first time with us. There were a ton of you who had just been sort of, I wasn't sure when to start, I wasn't sure how to do it.

I had been holding out. I didn't know. And then you took the whole. journey with us. And though this journey involved for both of us, many weekend binges of many, many episodes of Doctor Who, this is also like a lot of forethought for us, which is not how we always organize this feed. I can't believe we did this all year. It's just an extraordinary thing to get to do with you, so thrilled and pleased that I got to share with you, my dearest pal, the story that I love so much

and that you now understand why I love it so much and how it interacts with a lot of other stories that we love and are currently watching. The thrill has been entirely mine. What remains? Of who? Three anniversary specials this year, right?

Covering on Saturdays. Starting this Saturday and then December 2nd and December 9th. So we'll be here on the Mondays. And then next year we get a whole new doctor. Shidgatwa is going to be here to be the 15th doctor. I'm so excited. I just could not.

And then I just saw because they announced that Nicola Cothlin is going to be in, like Shidgatwa's second season. They're already filming his second season. So we haven't even seen the first season. And they're already filming the second season. That means less waiting in general. And that's just delightful. Thank you, Russell D. Davies.

We're back. I mean, for me, I was never going from the moment I dabbled. Here I was. You and me. Time and space. You watch us run. All right. Let's get into the good stuff.

All right. New doctor. New fit. New screwdriver. New Tardis. New showrunner. We're going to start as we always have started by talking about the new showrunner of this era. This is the Chris Chibnil era.

And now you've seen three different people handle the doctor. So you have, it really takes three for you to understand like the full shape of something, I think. Chibnil has the shortest tenure out of any of our showrunners. And I think it's generally regarded that he was just not the greatest fit for this property. Good fit on paper. I get, I get why he was tapped. He was a showowner of the first two seasons of Torchwood, the Doctor Who's spin-off. And those were popular, well-like seasons.

and the showrunner of the very popular broad church starring David Tennant and Jody Whitaker. So, like, you know, made a great show that you and I love. However, for a variety of reasons, the ratings that were already slipping in the Capaldi era just continued to sort of have a free fall

in the Whitaker Chibnell era. We're going to talk about, like, what we did like, what we didn't like about this run of episodes. And I think it's safe to say, as is usually the case, we found things to really enjoy about both Jody and this run. One thing I noticed, I hadn't really put all the pieces together. I already knew this about Russell T. Davies. Russell T. Davies is a Welshman. And so he makes Wales and Cardiff very important to his run of Doctor Who.

And then Stephen Moffitt is a Scotsman. And we get a Scottish doctor in Peter Capaldi. We get a Scottish companion in Amy Pond. And then Chris Chimel is from the North. And so we get characters from Sheffield and Leeds and eventually from Chibnall's own Liverpool with the consummate scouser that is Dan Lewis, handsome Dan, as Mallory has called him in our notes.

Big fan! And the mad mole of Edchill just like, there's just like all this liverpugly and history that becomes integral to the story of the final season. The doctor arrives with a Klop-era shout-out. I know you're not much of a footy fan. Oh, not much.

No. No. No. No. A Yergan Klop shout-out right here in the Doctor Who universe amid the Champions League and Premier League run of excellence. Great, great moment for Christopher Ryan. If you ever want to convince Chris to try to watch Doctor Who, just give him that one soundbite.

That clip. Clop era. And it will be in. My question for you, Mallory, is if you were to get to be in charge of a season of Doctor Who, what Baltimoreian, what Baltimore mudlian lore would you bake in there? Boy. We're having a crab dip in the TARDIS? What a question. Yeah, you know, I think I would, as an anglophile,

I would still want my version of Doctor Who to be deeply British, but with a dusting of old base seasoning. I was going to say, old thing. You know? You should feel it in your bloodstream as you're gallivanting about the universe. Crab cakes and football, that's what Maryland does. You know, crab cakes and the TARDIS, that's what Maryland does. Why not?

I love the idea of your doctor, like, regenerating. And as that, like, golden regeneration, like, glow happens, there's also just, like, pixied us and old bay seasoning in the air, just like a whiff of it. And a Gunner Henderson, Jersey. Ravens helmet. I mean, orange and purple, bold colors to go with,

but listen, birds nest. Doctors have worn weirder things. Okay. What about you? What Bay Area Flair are you introducing

into your doctor who experience? Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for asking. My doctor is going to have to wear, unfortunately, a very, like, sleek, um, puffer vest.

Um, For, you know, just that, like, Silicon Valley. I hate that we're Silicon Valley now. We used to not be. When I was young, we were not Silicon Valley. We were just, like, crunchy granola hippies and redwoods. So maybe my tartis would be made of, you know, old redwood trees. And it wouldn't have the blue finish.

It would just be, like, beautiful redwood. A Tardis made from a rock-ship forest. Very saga-esque. I like it. like where your head is here. Beautiful. My doctor and companion will exclusively drink Natty Bo.

My doctor's on kombucha. God. Wow, we're insufferable in Northern California. It's terrible. Okay. Chris Jimals also, it's not just the Mad Moll

of Edge Hill, Joseph Williamson, a Liverpool hero that I definitely had heard of before Doctor Who, no. But just a massive increase in historical figures,

right? We get, because we've covered the various historical episodes of Doctor Who, but that's usually like one episode per season, if that, right? This, here we get Nicola Tesla, Lord Byron, Mary Shelley, Percy Shelley, Charles Babbage, Ada Lovelace, Rosa Parks, Mary Seekul, Norinat Khan, like, just to name a few. Like, we are just as crowded as the Tartis. This season is crowded with historical figures. What do you make of

all of that? Like, how did that go for you? I think in general, this run felt more earthbound than the other runs. And so that feels like, I guess, like a logical and natural extension. Maybe an odd thing to say for a run that like drastically altered the lore in the late stages. We have so much to talk about

today. But like, I think, you know, as has been the case the entire time, the historical episode sort of varied in their success. I think that some of them like the Byron episode and the Shelley episode that was maybe our shared favorite

of the run wonderful I feel like for the rest of my mortal days I will be prone to just randomly out of nowhere think of the way Byron said

vibe after the doctor said it's really weird vibe off your house but that was just such a fun one in terms of this like fabled literary group and this like night and period in their history that is known and then like what connection. I like when the doctor dabbles in historical moments that like you can feel and see the shape of influence without having to necessarily confront the fundamental like altering of something.

So that question of like what about this night with the doctor and the companions? Like did a cyberman. Frankenstein. Yeah. Did a Cyberman give us Frankenstein? Totally. It's really fun and cool. And then I think some of the historical episodes were much less successful and, like, felt just less conceptually fully realized or, like, less connected to the overall flow of the show.

I found it, I'll say, like, in the first season. So I had told you this in the beginning of the run, but it's interesting to, like, revisit now in the context of having seen it all. The only exposure I had to Doctor Who, other than just like, you know, memes on Twitter, soaking things up. Yeah, via osmosis and having like a general awareness of it. The only thing I had actually experienced and consumed firsthand in full was the first Jody season. Because I was like, this seems like, I know. This is like at the time. Genuinely strange sampling for you.

Yeah. Well, okay. If not now, when? Like, what a great time to dabble and dip my toe in and start. And at the time, I watched that season, and I was like, this is pretty fun. Because I had to, I just, like, no frame of reference for what doctor who was. And it was so, the reason it pops into my mind in this prompt about the historical figures is because, like, there's a lot of that in the early run. And it's just, it was so, it was so surreal to, like, revisit this, that season.

Now having watched everything that came before in the modern run and having a sense of like what a doctor who, season feels like and what that initial forging of a bond between a doctor and their companions feels like. And it was like just a fundamentally different experience watching it the second time around with the context of the prior who seasons. And it was my, even though I have some serious questions and notes about the third season, it is, I think, comfortably my least favorite of the three Jody seasons. Yes. The second is, I would say, comfortably my favorite. But of the three Jody seasons. And the third is a, I would say,

a bold pursuit that I asked some notes on. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. With some real highs. Some real highs in that final. Yeah, some interesting choices.

Some questions. The history aspect is really interesting to me. I remember watching the first season live and like hitting the Rosa Parks episode and trying to figure out what felt so different about the Rosa Parks episode versus other historical episodes.

that we had experienced. I love history. I love a time travel show that interacts with history. I love, like, I've said it before and I'll say it again, two of my favorite shows of all time growing up, or Quantum Leap and Highlander, both of which are very much this show. Let's bounce around and occasionally like, oops, Lee Harvey Oswald is here, or like, whatever. So, like, I'm all for that. And especially there was a real emphasis on highlighting, like, cool women of history.

You know what I mean? Like, Ada Love Lace. Mary Seacole. I didn't know Mary Seacol's story. I didn't know a Norinette Khan story. Like, those are cool stories to learn about. But the way it's done felt often, like, this is so tricky to talk about in like our first female doctor season. And I usually, oh, and I have to say, usually when I prep for these pods, I like take a tour of like YouTube videos people have done of like analyzing character arcs and like whatever. Like, it is so hard to find one that is not, disgustingly terribly sexist and awful.

There's just like a lot of bad faith coverage of this season of Dr. Ho. And I think we and I have plenty to criticize. None of it centers on the fact that a woman is playing the doctor, but that seems to be like a problem. Or Jody Whitaker's performance, which I think is sensational. Delightful. Winning is a word you used in a text to me. Very winning.

I love that. Winning. Yeah. But some of the plot lines can seem about, hand-fisted and we got this interesting email I thought from one of our listeners. Thank you. India, the email's quite long. I won't go into the whole thing, but she talks, she went through basically the New Who era. She loves Doctor Who, is obsessed with Dr. Who. Went through New Who era as and talking about how as a black woman, some of the like characters

had appeared to her in previous seasons, like some of the things we've talked about with like Martha and Mickey and Bill and Danny, et cetera. So she talked about all of that. And then And she says, so then we get to Jody and we get Ryan and Yaz and Graham. And it's lovely, except I feel like they've gotten a lot of notes on the race problem. And now, rather than just telling the story of the doctor and her companions, there's the layered agenda of the struggles of race and gender and climate change, et cetera, et cetera. And I love a story that hits those notes and reminds you that we're all human and all worthy of love and respect.

I feel like the doctor generally does this quite well. But in Whitaker seasons, it feels like an agenda. It doesn't feel organic or like a natural lesson that you would pick up just. from just the empathy one naturally gains from ingesting media it feels like they went into it with the pure intentions

of teaching me that racism, sexism, etc. is bad. So while I do think they got these characters and their dynamics rights, I feel like the actual storytelling struggled.

And that I think really encapsulates how I feel where I'm just sort of like, I love learning about cool women of history. Like this should be right up my alley, but I feel like it lacks some

subtlety nuance or something, you know, something that makes it feel like all woven into the larger tapestry of the story I'm telling. Rather, it felt like we're pressing pause on the story I'm watching to take this detour. How do you feel about it? What do you think? I think it's connected to like the overall challenge in this run of establishing the companions as like fully fleshed out characters. And I think there's, I know we'll talk more about the companions later. like the volume of them, how many there are, what that might point through thematically,

etc., which I think was an interesting choice that I actually broadly was like a fan of. But in a number of different respects, there's like a lot of signaling and signposting early that like there's a key thing we should know about somebody. But we don't often get to like really linger in the discovery of how that has shaped or guided their lives to that point or what it might mean for them moving forward. So I think, like, there's a nobility and value in that intention, just like a, the execution, the success of the execution, I think, varied across the episodes and the seasons. So, like, I think it is, there are moments where we get to see that, like, Ryan and Yaz, this is part of our introduction

to them immediately, have a history together. They grew up together. They went to school together. They know each other. When we hear them talking about like the bigotry and the prejudice that they face in their lives, like, it's a meaningful thing for them to share with each other. We spend very little time after that with like what it means for them to have been people who grew up together and knew each other and kind of grew apart and then made their way back to each other in an extraordinary circumstance. That's just like like the nature of their bond is not really a variable moving forward. in the show. And in part, that's because there's only room for so much. And the bond between Graham and Ryan becomes more central. Eventually, the bond between Yas and the doctor becomes more central. The doctor, to your point about like, centering these highly accomplished and brilliant

women throughout history, again, like in terms of nobility of intention, I think I agree with you. I think it's really awesome that the first woman who is here with us as the doctor, is like experiencing a number of different moments that lead to a genuine enthusiasm of expression, which is like you are a person I admire. I can't believe I get to stand in front of you and interact with you and learn from you and be in your presence. And I think that like Jody as 13 has a like sincere gift for conveying energy and enthusiasm. And so I believed it every single time she said one of those things.

But that wasn't necessarily like an area of emphasis for the character. It was almost like incidental. Yeah. That's such a good point. And I do. I think, and that is a thing that the doctor has done throughout all the seasons that we've watched this idea of like, oh, you're brilliant. Like I get to meet you.

How brilliant and exciting, you know. And again, to your idea of like this is such an, it's a noble intention. It's an exciting intention. Like, I think it's cool to have these women and their stories highlighted. I just wish it had been done a bit more smoothly or in a way that felt like, yeah, like we weren't tripping over it. One last thing before we get to Jody herself, and that is the score. This is the first run of episodes that we've had without Murray Gold, the composer of all of the seasons that we've gotten before this. I really felt the lack of it with no, like, nothing against the score.

The score is perfectly fine, but you realize how much work Murray Gold's score actually does. And we taught when, I already mentioned, well, I guess probably the Loki finale episode, I was talking a lot about Michael Gekino's work on Lost. Like, that is a good, a great show that is made just strata, like, so much better by an incredible score. That's just something a score can do. It could just take something to the next level. It can emotionally manipulate you, and I don't even mean that in a negative way. You know what I mean?

You just hear certain things and you get emotional. I get emotional now after the most recent watch through when I hear Clara's theme because I think about the doctor on his guitar in that diner. And Clara's not even a character that I care about that much. But like that music means that moment to me. And it gets me. And I could not hum you or name you a single. theme from this run of episodes, unfortunately. And Murray Gold will be returning with Russell D.A.V.

To do the specials and the seasons going forward. But that was just like something I thought worth. No, it's not so much a knock on the composer who did the seasons, but more just like, Marie Gold, you are, you are exemplary. That sound is part of like the fabric of the universe, you know? Just like the Bush of the TARDIS. Love that. All right.

What do you think makes a good doctor? Let's start with just like a cute little medley of Jody Whitaker moments. It's too dangerous. I eat danger for breakfast. I don't. I prefer cereal or croissons. Oh, those little fried Portuguese. Never mind.

It's not important. Apple bobbing! I love apple bobbing. Is anyone excited because I'm really excited? You won't give us a bum. Don't kill the vibe, Graham. Jonee Whitaker. Great stuff.

We love her. We think she's great. We just think she's wonderful and, like, has been wonderful in anything I've ever seen her in. And I was so excited for her to play the doctor. And she is wonderful. And the main thing that I've said about these Who episodes when I've talked about them previously is just sort of like, Jody deserves better. This is like any critique we have is not really a critique of Jody at all. She got the least number of episodes after Christopher Eccleston of any doctor, which I think is a shame.

and she comes into this with just like this undeniable pressure of being the first woman to play the doctor. That's just putting a lot of pressure on these seasons from the jump. I want to take you now. It's not the most fun corner I've ever been on, but would you like to come to internalize misogyny corner with me, Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin? Sure. It's not as fun as we watch. What an invitation. Yeah. I just wanted to take a really close look at

if there was anything about this role being, like, because I was one of those people for years, her ringing Stephen Moffitt at all of like, let a woman play the doctor, really wanted a woman to play this role. And so then I'm like, okay, and then you got what you wanted. And it wasn't what you wanted. And again, I don't think it has anything to Jody, but I wanted to see if there was anything about this role being played by a woman that made it read differently for me. And there were two things that I thought maybe worth mentioning. I can't say for certain this is something I fell victim to, but it is possible. One is I think some of the things that we mired most in the doctor and we've heard sound clips of various people talking about it over the various seasons, Neil Gaiman, Stephen Moffett, of this idea of the doctor is someone who is very compassionate and believes in nonviolence that he doesn't use a gun, he uses a sonic, all of the sort of stuff like that.

And I think that those are qualities we take for granted in female. and female leaders. And they seem so extraordinary in previous doctors because those are male heroes and we're used to male heroes using might and violence and all the sort of stuff like that. So the emotionality of those of the doctors and the nonviolence of the doctors is something maybe we give them extra credit for because we're like, huh, we're not used to seeing male characters like this. And then I think also, I couldn't say it's necessarily because she's a woman, but I think over

these seasons, I think Chibnell really downed. played the doctor's other less attractive qualities, like the arrogance and the vicious streak. Like, I don't think we got as much of that in Jody. This was just, like, a nicer, kinder, gentler doctor, which is okay. Like, those iterations have existed in previous, like, you know, I would say earlier versions of the doctor, like I'm talking classic who. But it made the doctor to me after the sort of juicy layers of the doctor we got with 12, 11, 10, 9, feel a little flatter.

It's not hitting all the notes that the doctor is capable of hitting. Again, not because of Jody's ability as a performer, but just as the doctor is written. Does any of that strike you? Yeah, it does. It's really interesting. Again, I'm like kind of trying to interrogate

maybe what it means that she was my first doctor and my first exposure to the doctor. And so I wonder how, different, like my read would have been if I had spent all of the prior seasons with male doctors first and then suddenly this was, this was in my life. But I will second what you said and note the distinction between Jody's performance, which I think is truly wonderful, incredibly charismatic and charming and like magnetic. And maybe the material that she has to work with. To your second point, that was all my mind pretty actively watching it. Like it almost,

And I don't, I don't know if this is true or if the, if Chibnil and the folks behind these seasons have like talked about this at all. But it almost felt whether this is true or not or fair or not, like there was like a fear of what the audience response would be if 13 had like the tendency to like lash out or act irrationally occasionally or lead with emotion. like you're just waiting for the backlash from people who are like, are like, oh, my God, this like, ugh, and like you can't, you can't write from a position of fear that like the bad faith contingent of the fan base is going to bristle against something that is ultimately a fully realized version of your character. So that definitely, I want to say this next part really carefully because genuinely, despite my recurring horny meter on 10 persona on the pods.

I don't think every story needs to have sex in it. I know that might surprise you to hear. But it was also striking to me that it is far and away the least, like, flirtatious run until obviously like the romantic plot between the doctor and Yaz is introduced late in the final season. And similarly, I was like, why? Why? What is there a level of fear that if the doctor is flirting or people are expressing interest in the doctor sexually or romantically, it's going to play differently because it's a woman than a man? I don't know if that's even a conscious element or not, but that that struck me a little bit too watching it. I was like, this is just like far in a way the least sexed up run.

Again, yeah. And I like I understand all of it. If they were fears that the staff had, I really understand why they would. I don't know if you remember this, but Jody Whitaker, there were, like, nude photos of her leaked when she was cast at the doctor. It was, like, really terrible. It was, like, awful, awful, awful stuff. And so, like, people are monsters. People are terrible. And so, like, I understand why, like, why you would have those fears.

And I don't know that I wouldn't make the same fearful decision if I were. you know, in charge of protecting this person who is playing this role. But I agree. I just think overall it just doesn't, then it just doesn't feel quite like the doctor. Even though the various iterations should be different flavors, there are some core qualities that felt like they were sort of missing. And like one of the reasons, perhaps why that is the case is, and Jody and Chris Jibnull have given a lot of interviews about this, that he told her not to watch any.

She did not grow up as a Doctor Who watcher, which is not a requirement for playing The Doctor. You don't have to have. Eccleson, Tennant, Smith, and Capaldi were all, like, Who fans growing up? Maybe that's a gendered thing. Who the fuck knows? But, like, you don't have to be a Doctor Who fan to play The Doctor. I didn't think you should watch the Doctor Who before you play The Doctor, you know, or while you're playing the doctor.

I don't think there's a harm to it. But Chris Chibnell, this is like, this is like when Brian Singer told all the actors on the X-Men movie not to read any of the comics. It's just sort of like, it's a weird mentality I've never really understood where they're like, oh, I'm afraid it will interfere with my process. And I'm like, I don't know if you're playing. Like if you're James Bond, watch some James Bond movies. Like, you know, just like get a sense of what's come before. And so Jody, under instruction has not watched.

She said she was going to watch it all when she was done. So maybe she's watched it all now. But she didn't watch it while she was playing. And like, I think that could only have helped if she had. What do you think, Mal? So I have a, that's fascinating to me. I have a couple thoughts. One, I agree.

I don't think it's necessarily always a requirement for somebody to have like a deep and abiding passion or even for or even exposure to the source material. Like I think our new recency bias go-to example for this is get Tony Yolroy with Andor, right? And now he's like happy to tell anybody he talks to that the reason he can make a good Star Wars thing is because he doesn't like Star Wars. And I'm like, okay, there's something really interesting there, like not being completely beholden to the Titans that came before and the weight of what came before. But I think that this is independent of any, like, bearing it had on maybe the performance. It makes me think more broadly about one of the things I didn't think worked,

again on my second watch of the first season here. which is of series 11, which is that it felt so deliberately like we've got to do our own thing. We've got to do something that feels new and different from everything that came before. I think maybe one of the emblematic aspects of that is like the, we're not playing the villain hits in this first season. Like that was so wild to, and eventually that, that changes, right? We get back to

the master and the Cybermen and the Daleks and the Santorans. But in that early stretch, it felt so, like the episodes, and they felt so consciously like it's like, okay, this is a new era in a lot of different ways, and

we're not just going to give you the recurrences of the things that you expected to find here before. Now, I think, again, like, there's value in that. I think that, like, we've talked about this a lot in our Star Wars pods, the non-guilt or like the other side of it where something can end up

feeling just like a collection of references or nods to or acknowledgments of or like an attempt to establish some connective tissue with a thing that people have some sort of existing fondness for rather than a thing that has like a merit and structure

on its own. Character depth. Yeah. So I think trying to like make something that felt a little bit new is totally valid. But I don't think think that it worked.

And that was among the other things in the second season for 13 that I thought worked better. That was really one of the quick, like, unlocking elements of a more successful stretch of this run where, like, it's not like, okay, you have the master back, so everything is fine. Actually, I have a number of questions about the return of the master on this run that I look forward to discussing with you later. But it felt like there was an embrace of the fact that this is a, a stretch of Doctor Who that exists in a modern return to Doctor Who

and that part of like continuing to tell the story of the doctor and what it means for that regeneration to occur and the mantle to pass down and new relationships to be forged and to hit the moment where you have to confront the fact that this old relationship that we cared about so deeply was just like discarded until somebody shows back up and it's like, remember me? That's like part of what the experience is, right? And part of what it means to confront like the passage of time over such a long swath.

So that was, I thought, like really a notable distinction across the seasons. Yeah, it's funny because, like, you could definitely accuse, accuse is an interesting word. You could definitely, like, say that Russell T. Davies did a similar thing

when he started with the ninth doctor with Eccleston. It was just, like, very different in a number of ways, intentionally so of the Who that came before that he was chasing a, like, Buffy Vampire Slayer vibe and, like, centering things on the companions

and all, like, all these different things that he did. did that we talked about when we talked about nine's introduction. But there's a few key differences. One is that like, you know, I think one of the episodes, when people aren't like really feeling nine as a doctor when they first start, a lot of people, a lot of that locks into place with the episode called Dalek, which is not that far, not that far into the season. And it is an incredible episode. And it is very much connecting this young leather clad doctor to all the doctors that came before him. And then the other thing is, in the things that Davies did, like the time war

and the destruction of Galefrey and all that stuff that Davies did to sort of don't worry about the past and continuity, he made that the text of his doctor, right? We meet nine and he's mourning what he's lost and he's mourning his disconnect for the past. So it's like part of the story is how different everything is for the doctor. And so then it doesn't just feel like what came before was trash and we're doing something different. It's like we're doing something intentionally different, but we've really thought about how we're still in love with and bound to what came before it, you know?

And that's, I think, a key difference between what Chibnall was attempting. I think it's always good to try things. I just don't think this particular try, you know, hit. I think we both feel strongly that people should, when new creators take over and are playing in a sandbox and inhabiting a world, they should not, we talk about this a lot when we covered rings of power. Like, how actually damaging it is for a swath of the fan base to say, like, don't touch my precious, my precious thing.

And that, like, if creators are coming in who love the world and understand the world and like recognize what people love about their connection to it, then we should be able to embrace, yeah, a spirit of invention and evolution and trying new things. So I'm generally in favor of trying new things. I think, like, each of these seasons, again, feels like a different way into this idea. Because the third season, which has like those, and it starts in the second season, those very, you know, everything with division and the flux and the timeless child. And, okay, you're not actually from Galfrey, like, which we'll talk about more later. That popped into my mind when you were talking about Russell D. Davies and not.

and how the morning and everything that happened plot-wise in terms of the mechanic of updating the lore is central to his character. What is the version of that with the big lore swings and updates for 13? It's literally like, I don't remember this. So that's really different. I love that. We did get a really fascinating email

about how they felt, 13 was connected to 12, which I'm going to get to in a second. I want to premise it a bit and talk about 13 status as like the lonely doctor. Let's play this clip that comes from the penultimate episode that is sort of key to unlocking the doctor's mindset in this era. I can't fix myself to anything, anywhere or anyone. I've never been able to. It's what my life is. No, of course.

not because I don't want to because I might but if I do fix myself to somebody I know sooner or later it'll hurt love an ocean side shoot down could be us

this is one of the kindest gentlest it's not you it's me speeches anyone has ever given anyone doctors basically saying yes we can't date because I'm an immortal creature and you have a final lifespan and also I've lost everyone and it's sad all the time. This idea of like I can't fix myself to anything anywhere or anyone I've never been able to. Emotionally the doctor definitely has

been able to be able to hold on to no because we've talked again and again and again about that idea of loss. This is the only doctor not to travel alone. We've seen all the other doctors try after they lose a companion to travel alone for a bit. This doctor does not do that. but her compulsion to be constantly surrounded, like we will talk a bit about how crowded the TARDIS is. There is literally a line when like a bunch of other characters are in the TARDIS along with the companions. And she's like, here it is full. Just this is how I like it.

Everyone on a control, which is what we got at the very end of Tens run when like all the companions were in the Tartis doing the various controls. She swaps out Graham, like Graham and Ryan leave and I'm like, okay, it's going to be, yeah, as in the doctor. Nope. she immediately picks up Dan as if like afraid to be alone with yes. And so like when she's distant from her companions, she keeps them at arm's length. She constantly tells like reviews to tell them things.

I feel like we miss out on what's truly special about who, which is the connection between the doctor and their companions. Before we get into this email from Paul, do you want to say anything on that front? Yeah. It's, I agree. I think that like the humor and the, like, again, just, like, kind of zest and thirst for life and for an adventure and exploring and sharing something with someone, that's all there in abundance. But it does have this quality of, like, let's go see a new thing so that we don't have to stop and pause and, like, think about the. ghosts were not ready to confront.

And in the third season, there were, actually, the end of the second season, everything with the master and the timeless child reveal and then into the third season, I thought there were a number of moments where we like glimps something darker in Jody's performance and with 13 as a figure. And like, sometimes it can just literally be a look, like a look on her face. as she is seething when confronted with like what the master is capable of doing or confronting the rage that she feels thinking about her past and like this deception. And I have the right to know my own life, that idea.

That's a good and powerful and very sad line. But all of it, it just made me want more of it, like the little, the little glimpses that we got. I was like, man, I feel really deprived of like episode upon episode where we got to just spend time in the sorrow. Because I think it is a totally valid thing for one of the doctor's incarnations. I mean, we talked about this a lot with like the transition from 10 to 11. You know, the regrets and forgets switch and how like deliberate that is is as kind of a coping mechanism as part of the regeneration. And I think similarly a version of the doctor that's. this version of the doctor who is like trying to stay busy, trying to have fun, trying to surround

herself with people who bring her like joy and a little bit of a reprieve from the sorrow that has defined this recent stretch of her life. I think it's like a really interesting creative choice. I think it works more effectively if it's a little bit more active text and little less like there for us to grasp and parse. You know, you think of something like one of our favorite moments with 10 and him saying to Wolf like traveling alone I thought it would be better alone

and then just breaking down in tears because it is not true right but like what does it mean to find yourself in a place where you think that or if you think of like 12 and trying to explain to Clara

like why why give the other token to Shildor what might happen, what might she do? And the way he said, immortality is everybody else dying. She might meet someone she can't bear to lose. That happens, I believe. Like, we get moments like this with the doctors

where we hear them speak aloud, this, like, defining loneliness and tragedy. And so, again, I think, like, Jody finding herself in that spot, Jody's doctor finding herself in that spot, spot is really interesting. I wish I wish the episodes of the focus and the text had like allowed us to live in that space with this doctor a little bit more often. Yeah. And I think also like we saw that a lot with Clara and like Clara and 12 that storyline that we had some notes on, but like

Clara's manic desire to constantly be adventuring and constantly being the hardest to avoid grappling with anything, you know, was an interesting storyline to pursue and I think done a bit better than if this was intentional, I would love to see more intentionality behind it. Okay, so Paul wrote, We simply need to look at the 12th doctor final day, Kapaldi's doctor, in which he loses bill to the cyberman, is rejected by missing a desperate plea to finally stand together, and is granted his memories of Clara back,

which, while presented as a happy moment, surely only reopens the initial wounds of her departure. As the doctor puts it, nothing is sad until it's over, then everything is. Over the course of this one day, the doctor is left with the belief that he feels, failed to save two separate companions and that he was unable to redeem his oldest friend in the universe. There's a lot of pain and the end to multiple relationships all over the course of a few

hours. As a result of all this tragedy, disappointment, and broken relationships, what is the 13th doctor ultimate response to all this heartbreak? Rather than once again building a meaningful relationship that becomes integral to her identity, the doctor instead surrounds herself with a constantly revolving door of multiple companions and ensuring that she never has to deal with the loneliness that often tore at the hearts of her previous incarnations, and at the same time that no one individual becomes too important to her understanding of herself as this latest version of the doctor. For me, it is a self-imposed distance that defines Jody Whitaker's doctor,

one that no longer allows her heart to feel for the universe, because the thought of one more bad memory or sad farewell is simply too much to handle. And I love that. That's so beautiful, a beautiful connective tissue idea. we love this idea of an incarnation of a doctor being reactive to the previous incarnation. But, you know, then the doctor doesn't feel as deep as the doctor. You know, a walled-off doctor doesn't feel as deep as the doctors that came before it. The upside, she's the only doctor, I guess other than nine, to not lose a companion.

So good job. They all leave, walk out and they're fine. pretty much fine. I mean, they're in a support group. They're in a support group. Yeah. They've never been more fine.

They've never been more connected. It's great. Let's talk about the companions. The fam. Yaz, Ryan, and Graham. We already talked about this idea

of like the crowding of the TARDIS, what that all mean. Narratively as like a screenwriter, as a TV writer breaking an episode, I thought it was interesting to sort of like, I'm not one, but, that's not going to connect and I apologize.

But thinking of it like someone who I like to think about how TV episodes are broken in a room, because you have so many companions running around, you can almost always have a B plot to your episode because you splinter off and these two are off in this side plot. They're running around with Chris Knoth or whatever they need to do. And the doctor and another companion are doing this. So like, that's an interesting writing opportunity. How did you feel about, yeah, is about Ryan, about Graham?

You already talked about it a bit, but what more do you want to say? Yeah, I like all of them. I find myself yearning to know more about them. After having finished their runs, which is a notable place to be, I think. I was really taken immediately with Ryan. I think, like the introduction at the beginning. He's our gateway into this new run. I love the little playing with our expectations about who's the most incredible woman that he's about to be talking about.

And it ends up being his nan, not the doctor. The relationship with Ryan and Graham, I was like, I mean, I'm such a sap that of course it won't surprise you to hear that I was very invested in them like embracing each other and Ryan in particular embracing Graham. and like when when Ryan says in the ninth episode of that first season, it takes you away. But at least we got each other right and called some granddad and Graham is like, what just happened? I'm like, this is like really sweet. I love Graham. I just such a sucker for an older companion.

I was thinking about this. I was like, what is my favorite age range for companion? Here's the journey I went on. I'll give you like the 30 second. version. I was like, I love an older companion. Like, Graham is great, Wilf, all time, or undefeated, simply can't be matched. Never will be. Oh, no, I love a coming of age companion. Someone like at the beginning of like, of their experience and trying to figure out who they are and what their place in the world. You know what I love most like Donna, Dan, like a middle age companion,

like that recognition that you never stop seeking some sort of new experience. And you shouldn't have to. And then I was like, wait, that's the point. It's like, they all, they all give us something different. And I feel like that's going to be one of the really cool things about revisiting who over the course of my life now is like, who will my favorite companion be in 10 years and 15 and 20? I have no idea, right? I bet you that somewhere, something about where I am in my life at that point will have a bearing on how I feel about who I'm spending time with in the show. And that's really cool. So that was fun to have like a mix of ages and experience. and family dynamics and all of that inside of the TARDIS.

It's connected, though, I think, to what we were talking about earlier with, like, just not getting to, like, learn as much about them. You know, we learned that Ryan has dyspraxia. We learned that Ryan has lost his mom and then his nan and has a strange relationship with his dad. We, but these are just things that are, like, told to us until, like, we eventually build toward seeing Ryan confront his father in the cafe, which is, like, a really intense, seen, we were just told a lot about how we were supposed to feel about it before we got there

and got to really, like, live inside of it with him. Yaz, like, we're with Yaz's family a lot. We have a glimpse of Yaz's career early, but somehow have no real feel for, like, her history to the point where I will be honest with you that in the, I thought fun and interesting, like, finger in your ear, dreamscape episode, which broadly enjoyed. I was like, did I, like, actually really miss something? Did I like accidentally skip a couple episodes with the with the Yaz plot where we like are learning this traumatic history and this sense of of isolation that she felt, which again, we had been like told that she had felt isolated, but hadn't really seen it centrally. And then this like experience with this police officer who sits down and tells her it's all going to be okay.

And this is the thing that sets her on the course of this meaningful career experience that then she doesn't really think about it all. as far as I can tell once she enters the Tardis? It's like, this is just bizarre. So I like all of the characters. I'm interested in them. I would like to know more about them. I found that the dynamic they had with each other and with the doctor was, like, again, very winning.

There's a lot of charm. There's a lot of shorthand. The moment when, like, Graham is looking at the conscious universe that is pretending to be his deceased wife, and not Grace says, I feel like me and he has to like choke out this is unfair?

I'm like in tears because I just don't want Graham to be heard and I want him to be okay and there are versions of that for all of the characters but just not their ideas more than they are like fully fleshed out figures

and I wanted I wanted to better understand all of them and how they got to that point and why they would make these decisions and then where they go from there. So I'm curious to hear all of your feelings on them and also how much of that you think stems from volume and, like, the equation of time and space and how much of it is just about the way that they were, they were written. No, because you have, my favorite companion is Donna Noble who gets one season.

You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to have been in the tart. You know, Yaz gets three seasons and I don't feel like I know her nearly as well as I feel like I know Donna after like her introductory special. You know, Bradley Walsh as Graham, I think, is the most successful of the three. And I honestly hate to pick the old white guy versus, like, you know, the young people color and the TARDIS. It's brutal. But, like, I mean, he benefits from the fact that he has, he sometimes sounds like Wilf.

Like, they have the same accent. They're like same London accent. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, I can almost feel like Wilf is also here when an emotional, like, geyser. And I mean that in the British sense. like, you know, gives you something. So I want to hear this, I want to play this next clip. This clip is supposed to, it is emblematic of something we get again and again,

which is telling us, you already pointed this out, about a character, rather than showing us that character's admirable qualities. I actually think this, though this clip is about, yes, I actually think in its delivery, we learn more about Graham than we do, yes. Carlos will we play this? He said to the doc that you saw, She was the best person you'd ever met. You know what, Yaz?

I think you are. You ain't got a time machine or a sonic. But you're never afraid. And you're never beaten. You know, I'm going to sound like a proper old man. You're doing your family proud, yes. You really are. In fact, you're doing a whole human race proud.

Sorry, I haven't offended you, have I? It's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. Oh, right. You're not such a bad human, yourself, either. Not so? Is that it? I've just said all them lovely things about you, and all you give me is you're not such a bad human.

Mate, I'm from Yorkshire. That's a love letter. That last line's great. Made up with Yorkshire. That's a love letter. But, yeah, I mean, you know, thanks about you. Like, he's such a, he sounds like a Guy Ritchie character, but he's like,

Being so soft and pouring his heart out and it's just so lovely. And to go back to Donna again, I know. I am like so in the bag for Donna Noble and I get it. But like if you think about her showing us who she is in the Pompeii episode when she's like, save someone, just save someone, right? Or in the, I think about it all the time in the Ood episode when she listens to the Ood song and she's like, I can't, I can't bear it. Like make it stop. I can't bear it. You know, I want to go home, like all this sort of stuff.

So like all of that So then later when people talk about how great Donna Noble is I'm like I know I have seen it And when he's like you don't have a sonic You don't have a time machine you're never afraid I'm like sure yeah yeah this is great She's cool she's adventurous like yeah I guess you know

But I don't feel it the way that I want to feel it The way that I have for not just Donna But Wilf and Rose and Amy and Rory at their best And Bill oh my God bill, you know, so it's just like, let's talk about, speaking of injecting more horniness into this Doctor Who, Malai Ruman, I would like to hand the mic over to you to talk about handsome Dan Lewis. Okay. Dan, and I'm like, explain why.

And you'll have a very funny email and a very smart one momentarily that I think gets at a lot of what I'm feeling. first of all, yes, Dan is very handsome. Like, it's just incredibly handsome. So that's part of it. But there is just such a like magnetic, all-consuming charm to our first glimpse of Dan, where he is like so proud of his home and in love with his own community that he shows up at the museum, despite being as far as we can tell, booted out every time to give tours to people, even though he is not in the employ of this establishment. And I think that that part of Dan

as like an opening note and our introduction to him, it's just like hard not to love that. I think there's an aspect of like audience avatar there where we're like we talk all the time about kind of loving something unapologetically and obsessively. And I think it's interesting that it could especially, like it could easily tip, I think, to some sort of weird, like jingoistic place with the characters. Just like, oh, I'm going to show up in my museum to like tell you about our history, even though they tell me I can't.

But they avoided that, thank God. So that part I love. and like Dan wants to go on a date with Dye and like he wants to find love and he wants to be happy. Great. Who among us? Relatable content. Dan wants to fall in love and be happy. Okay. Effective opening note. Then I am forced to confront the fact that Dan is no different from any of the other companions and actually probably a more extreme version of all of the other companions in the sense that we know basically nothing about him and never learn anything about him. So like we learn that Dan is, like should have taken the soup, right?

He's proud, but he's struggling. We do not ever learn why. Our introduction to Dan is that he doesn't have food in his fridge or in his cabinets, but is so generous that he is going to help other people and make sure that they have the food that they need. He loses his home, and it's like a bit. I'm like, but wait, is Dan going to be okay? Seriously.

Like our introduction to him is that he was like really struggling. Dan has these wonderful parents that are very comedically deployed as like people who are ready to bash the centaurans and the little wamping willow activation or deactivation knob with a pot. Love it. Great. But like, what is the support? What does it mean for it? Is that support system and the love in his life what has allowed him to navigate these other challenges? Couldn't tell you.

I mean, that's my deduction, but I don't know for sure. Pirates suit. Like. Yeah, delightful. I have no notes. Ruffles, broad stripes, boots. The fact that Yaz was like, yeah, that's it. That's the costume.

Dan is, and also, I actually feel very quite emotional. When I think about Dan and Yaz and Dr. Jericho for like four years in the 1900s, like, dude. I just love that. So like at least when he says goodbye to her, I feel like a little bit of weight around that. So I just really love Dr. Jericho a lot. Great character. Yeah.

Like, it's just, anyway, this email from Tom that Mallory alluded to. This killed me. Tom wrote, Dan is what I call an anti-character. I've never really encountered anyone else like this. Dan is someone who undergoes virtually no arc. Seres virtually no purpose. Actively makes the dynamic between 13 and yeah is less interesting. Just leaves.

And then nobody cares. but is still the best Chimnal companion by far. And you know what? I agree. Flawless email. Handsome Dan Lewis. All right. Speaking of handsome men and horniness,

Captain Jack Harkness is back. We haven't seen him in a long time. He shows up and Mallory texted me immediately upon seeing good old Cavill Jack. Thrilled. This is, it's really fun to pull someone from the Davies era in to the Chimilar. I think that was really fun thing. John Barerman, you know, dyed his hair brown, like his silver foxy hair to brown and just, like,

put on the tight pants and came back. It's great stuff. Have you had work done? You can talk. There's something really funny about, you know, he shows up twice. The first time he shows up, and they even call out his cheesiness, there's something about the cheesiness of Jack. That really highlights what a different show we're watching from the show.

we were watching where Jack felt like part of the furniture, you know what I mean? He doesn't blend very well at all in that first episode when he shows up. And again, like Ryan calls him cheesy, like calls him out. But it's still just like such a thrill to see him. And then when he shows up, in that interaction with Yaz, he gets to deliver one of the main theses of this. Dare I say, this whole Doctor Who rewatch experience. Carlos Lee plays clip, please. Being with the doctor, you don't get to choose when it stops.

Whether you leave her or she leaves you. It felt cruel. To be shown something I couldn't have anymore. It felt like I'd rather not have known. I'd rather not have met her because having met her and then being without what that's worse. How'd you deal with that? How many people in the universe get to meet the doctor? Let alone travel with her.

We're the lucky one, Chas. Enjoy the journey while you're on it. Because the joy, it's worth the pain. The joy of Doctor Who is worth the worst episodes we sat through. Don't you think that that's true? Absolutely. And my money would not have been on, Captain Jack Harkness, delivering one of the most emotionally resonant

and, like, thematically poignant dispatches in the entire run. But I thought this was beautiful. And I loved this from both of their perspectives and what it tells us about everyone who is involved in this shared experience. The line right before the clip that you just played is Hard Way to Live. And I thought that was like a really interesting way

of positioning something that many people would seek and covet and think of as like this aspirational life-altering adventure. I think one of the reasons that who is just, so sublime, sublime, is because it's like able to hold both of those truths and all of the truths around that in its mind at once, right? Like, it is a journey, it is an adventure. Adventures they must be shared. I've heard it must be shared. From a very important source. Alone, it's just a journey. But that there is so much pain and sorrow and that like part of gaining something is having to confront what it feels like one day when you lose it, right? Like,

that's what it, that's what it is to be alive. And when Yaz said, like, it felt cruel to be shown something I couldn't have anymore. It felt like I'd rather not have known. Immediately, I'm thinking in both directions of Donna and of Rose. Like, I'm thinking, well, no, like, we have to, we know what it looks like when somebody doesn't know anymore what this experience was. And, like, that's not right. That's not good.

I'm sorry to even bring it up, but like it was hard for me not to think about it. I'm getting closure on Saturday. So you're so close. You're so close. You're so close. And then, you know, of course it made me think of the, but it was, it was a better life.

Rose line to, to Mickey and Jackie. You love that scene. I love it. I think about it all the time. The doctor showed me a better way of living your life. That scene, but also just like Rose on the beach.

like rose trapped on the beach without the doctor first, any doctor, and then without her doctor. And just like being, being no, like trapped like Will and Lyra, which we talk about all the time, like on the other side of something that you had, you know? Might be coming up again in our most emotional moment of the run superlatives later. Who can say? It's hard to beat. Got wrenching. So excellent deployment of Captain Jack Harkness.

Love that he's here. it makes sense because again, Chibnell ran the first two seasons of Torchwood, which was Jack Spinoff Show. Should I dive right in? What do you think? It's a very horny show. It's extremely horny. I think you might enjoy it. I think if we had to wait, if we had done this on the schedule we were supposed to, I might have been like, why not knock out some Torchwood while you're waiting? But guess what? No waiting. Maybe in December and all your free time. Okay. So we talked about. the prominence of the Cyberman and the Capaldi run, and I just thought it was interesting.

You mentioned this idea of like they held off on the classic who monsters until season two and season three. But still, even like season three, though we get Dalek and Cybermen a bit, it's the Santorans that are the like, the centaurans are really prominent. And it is wild to me because I would not have guessed in a million years that they would have gone with Santarans.

Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that? I feel, it felt like they just wanted, He just wanted to call, I mean, I understand. What more can you fucking do with the Dalek? I don't know. You know what I mean? But like it felt like he wanted a classic who monster that wasn't the Cybermen or the Daleks. And even the Cybermen, he gave an upgrade too.

So, you know, the Cybermasters. It was interesting that the Daleks were present in each of the festive specials. Is that called now Festive specials? Again, it just feels like. I, okay, I try to, okay, in my like woke Northern California self, I say happy holidays. That's just something that I say, okay? It is. It's not hard to do.

It's easy to do. Whatever. I call these generally holiday specials because whatever. If you're not going to call them a Christmas special, call them a holiday special. Call them a festive specials sounds so earnestly woke. And as one of the most earnestly woke people you'll ever. made. I was like, what the fuck are we doing here? Anyway, go ahead. It was interesting to see it in the little HBO Max Carousel. I was like, oh. Oh. Okay. So like the, because, okay, so series

11 and series 12 have one special at the end. They each incorporate the Daleks heavily. And then the first of the three specials at the end of the series 13, uh, involves the dog. So the, the, the, the Daleks are like a through line of the specials, which was an interesting way to like make sure they're there, but kind of keep him a little bit. separate from the other action, you know, the cybermen are fairly central from our lone cyberman, Siberian plot through to the cybermasters and all that. But yeah, structuring because of the nature of series 13 and the six-episode arc, which we're going to talk about some of those episodes, so I'll save the specific thoughts, but I'll just say, I don't like the

ambition of that. I think that's like a bold swing. But Joanna, you're a recent baseball convert. And so one of the things that you know to be true is if you hit a lot of home runs, you probably strike out a lot. And like, if you're going to miss, you're going to miss sometimes, right? Three true outcomes. So it made sense, I guess, that there would be such a prominent focus on the centaurans, given the nature of the, like just the connected structure. of those six episodes, right? It's one plot, one plot across six episodes. Then at the end, when it's like, well, what if we like, we can, well, let's like wipe out the, let's lure the cyber and the Daleks and wipe them out. And then have our doctor who, as you noted earlier, even by

the standards of the doctor, has been like pretty, like forward leaning with the pacifism. And then be like, well, what if the flux just wiped them all out? It's like, this is just bizarre. So, I don't know, the Centaurians. Also, it was a shift to go from like our most recent centaurin-centric experience had just been levity, you know? Levity in the Moffat run. Not so much here. They are still amusing.

I mean, they're such duffus. It's like hard not to chuckle. But they're perpetrating the Crimean War. It's fine. I guess like they felt, I mean, the Daleks would have been, and the Cybermen, too, any of them could achieve this. I guess with the flux giving us a foe, even though that was obviously the divest.

vision and ravagers. Can't wait to talk about our guys' form in a minute. I have so many questions coming for you on the final plot. The idea of the flux is this like all-consuming thing and the idea of the Sintarans is like, Victor, your bust. I guess they feel like they unlock something in each other.

I don't know. It's the best I can do. I did like with the Ashad getting to see like the face under the lone cyberman. Oh yeah, yeah. I liked that too. Speaking of, let's talk about just really quickly. And then we're going to go into our little mini episode, medium dives. The Thrones and House of the Dragon guest stars.

Any in particular? So the actor playing Ashad played the other face of Jack. in Hagar in season two of Game with Thrones. And so that was fun. Any other Game with Thrones or House of the Dragon guest stars you want to shout up particularly? There's just so many. It's unbelievable. Like Adam and I watching this, he at one point was like, I can't believe there are still

more people. They had previously used. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I guess the pick has to be Jacob Anderson, our guy Grayworm is here. I had absolutely no idea that he was like a main character in the first. final stretch here as Vinder. So that was really fun because even when we were first introduced to him on the space station that he has to eventually abandon as the flux interrupts and disturbs his exile. I was like, oh, is this like a one episode thing? Because that's how typically these things go,

maybe a couple episodes, but because the whole final season is one plot. One big, there it was. Here he is. Yeah. What about you? Who's your favorite? It's, I mean, you know, I got excited when I saw Sir Beres and Selmy himself and Michael, McClennie, who a lot of people also know from Dairy Girls, but Jacob Anderson, who I'm, like, kind of obsessed with, like, because he's so good interview with the vampire, something that you will never watch because it is full of blood and horror. I'll watch it. I'll watch it.

He is so good as Louis in that. And I think he's great as Vinder here. I loved him. And so I was just like, I'm like, Jacob Anderson is honestly top of my list for, like, favorite post-throon's performances is, like, good. And it just like, I mean, I understand that it was like the character, but it's like how ill-used he was to a certain degree at Thrones because he can do so much. And, you know, he's played a character. It's quite a lot of children.

Matthew Needham. Yeah. Is under a bunch of makeup. So it's hard to spot him. But he plays the older version of the swarm. Anyway, we'll talk about that later. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. Howdy take your coffee? Piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try Two Good

and Company creamers. They're made with farm-fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla, and lavender. So which one are you trying first? find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. Let's get into our shallow dives with our favorite or most worthwhile episodes. As Mallory mentioned, there's, I think, a substantial jumping quality between season 11 and season 12, Jody's first season and her second season.

So we're going to kick off with season 12 episodes 1 and 2, a two-parter Spyfall, a fun little James Bondi moment. for the doctor where we meet an agent called Oh, Carlos, will you play this clip? Oh. That's my name and that is why I chose it. So satisfying. Doctor, I did say look for the spy master. Or should I say spy master?

We spend a whole episode with O and he's quite charming and winning. like earnest and all the sort of stuff like that. And we find out it was actually the master in disguised, played by Sasha Dewan, who I know from Iron Fist, unfortunately. I'm actually great in Iron Fist, a terrible show that he's great in. And actually... Shout out the Great. Oh, yeah.

The Great. Oh, sorry. Duh. Obviously, the Great. Incredible and the Great. A show that I only watched because of you on last year's... I was thinking about it a lot. I was thinking about a lot when we got to respute,

which we'll talk about later. I love Sasha Joanne in general, and I love him as this character. I'm just going to say, oh, because I'm not sure I love this as like the next phase for the master, even though I think this performance is absolutely incredible and injects life into the show whenever he shows up. We got an email from Sydney about this.

Sydney wrote, when we first meet the new who master in season three is truly awful driven by his quote, glory's purpose of being the true, quote, master of the universe. This all changed was Missy. She went back to stand with the doctor. She felt things for others and they're suffering. She tried to help when even her own self was begging her not to. Then she died and couldn't regenerate. And I did cry like a baby.

So imagine my surprise when quote, oh, when quote, oh, waltzes in and basically recons the entirety. of Missy's development and arc as a reformed sociopath. That is years of development just thrown away for a fun story. Why did they do this to Missy? Stop replaying the evil master bit. They've done it every season, minus 11, and Missy was an amazing end of an arc because one thing we hate is when a character has an arc and then completely disregards that arc.

So the master is a complete backslide without like really any nuance to it. We never get any inkling from that this is a master with. regret, remorse, humanity. Even John Sims' character characterization of the master, I would say, has more conflict to it than this particular master. We'll get to a little bit later in the resputin scene, but mostly this is, it's not one note because Sasha Duan is so talented and charismatic that, like, again, I'm constantly like stimulated and entertained.

But if we're trying to connect this to anything that came before, it feels wholly disconnected. Like this is almost like an earlier regeneration of the master, though there's no implication of that in the plot. Mallory, what do you think about this version of the master? I'm at war with myself. I'm up to mind. I'm up to mine. I've thought of me if you've heard this before. I also found the performance like incredibly entertaining every single utterance. Every line, regardless of context or circumstance, regardless of who is on the receiving end, every single utterance makes it seem like the master, breathily making his way through some diatribe is either about to cry or come or maybe both. Every single sentence. And it's like, this is really a choice.

Now, it's entertaining to watch, and I think quite expertly performed, but it did feel like so disconnected from the experience that we had just had with Missy that I did, to your last point there, I did find myself wondering pretty actively throughout, like, is this an earlier regeneration of the master that came before Missy? it's like almost the only way I can wrap my mind around it. So whether that is ever going to be active canon or not, I don't know, but it will be my head cannon. I think that's the only way I can cope. Because like, you know, we talked about this exchange a lot in our pod on 12, but like the, that's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist.

Idea between 12 and Missy was like so compelling. And to shift not only like not only like regret. but to then go even beyond, to your point, even beyond that, into a more like almost cartoon evil. Yeah, because even like 10 is like, and also on the doctor side, because the doctor's never reaching out to like shared history or like all this sort of stuff like that.

Like 10 with John Sims version of the master, 10 is like, you know, like come with me. Like we can fix this. We can save this. You're the only one who knows me. Like all this sort of stuff. and that history that, you know, and 12's, like, need for Missy to be good because Missy is the closest thing to him in the galaxy, you know what I mean?

Like, all of that is so deep and impactful and complicated. And this is just a Looney Tunes villain, an entertaining Looney Tunes villain, and a doctor who, like, seems to not know him at all, you know? It's just odd. I will say, well, we'll get to. the, we're coming back to Resputin, don't worry. But like, there is some stuff in there, like, sort of subtextually that I think is interesting.

But it's, I never, I don't know, never really guess there. All the other thing that Spifal does and the Master Arch in general does is just completely redestroy and I'm like, why did we ever even bring it? This really feels like, yeah, the Star Wars sequel trilogy where it's like people playing tug tug of war with continuity, where Davies is like, let's get rid of Galifrey, we don't need it. Moffat's like, I want to do Galefrey, bring it back. And Jiml's like, I don't want to do it. Let's get rid of it.

Let's blow it up again. Well, and it makes me wonder, like, is the seesaw going to go back again now in this next run? I don't know. I don't think David's. True. And things need to meet matter. The destruction of Galifrey is such a, like, heavy thing that happened in the Davies run. For Moffat to just, J.K. Bring it back was annoying.

We already talked about that. But then to just like, then the master is just. the one to blow it up and doesn't care, doesn't care that he blew it up? I think even with, this was part of what, like, took me out of this a little bit, I think even with the master taking the doctor, like, into the matrix and the truth of the past and this glimpse of the timeless child history. And, like, we get to see it. We're on the scorch planet. We see the broken citadel. There is a part of me that's like, I was actually thinking of what you were, the note you were reinforcing at the beginning of our

low-key season two pods with He Who Remains? Like, but why trust a liar? You know? So, like, I feel like there's that aspect of it too, which is just like, I don't know. Oh, yeah, Davies. Even what we saw? Do we like have to trust or believe in that

for how long? But that, that is a perilous perch. That's, I mean, we go to the edge with the doctor as we get to glimpse some password. That's like, in a meta sense, the edge that we might find ourselves. on if like every time there's a new steward we're like oh i can't i can't wait for the next ray centric star wars movie where they're like jk you're not a palpatine and you never were

spoiler should rise of sidewalk or the worst star wars movie okay um season 12 episodes five and episodes 10 fugitive of the june and the timeless children these are the cannon balls the canon wreckers of a chimneyl's run here. In the fugitive doctor, we mean a new incarnation of the doctor that came sometime before in a period of their life. And our doctor, and all the doctors we've ever met have forgotten that the fugitive doctor ever existed, played by Joe Martin. Joe Martin, who I think is great. Let us hear a little bit between these two doctors. I told you, love, I'm the doctor. You can't be. Yeah, why's that? Because I'm the doctor. You have got to be kidding me.

Really? Yes, really. Since when? Since forever. And how did I end up like that? All rainbows and trousers that don't reach. What? No. How did I end up like you? You don't. You're in my future, not the other way around.

I've never been anything like you. Trust me, I'd remember, especially that shirt. So would I, if I'd ever been you, which I haven't. As soon as this character we meet Ruth, who didn't know that they were the doctor, sort of had their memories activated. The TARDIS is buried. But I still hadn't caught on. Like, I understood that she was someone, but I hadn't cotton on. But when, you know, she transforms into her outfit and I'm like, well, if that's not a doctor, I don't know what a doctor dresses like.

Like, that's the doctor right there. And I'm not too stressed about it in that Moffitt did something similar with the war doctor. like just sort of inserting a doctor into the timeline in the anniversary special. And we loved that. So I can't love that and then call this out. It sets a complicated precedent as does the whole concept of the timeless child of like there could be a gazillion regenerate. We saw in that montage a bunch of regenerations. So on the one hand, it opens the door up for a lot of things.

on the other thing, as you say, that's a tricky perch to sit upon to just sort of like things, it's good to operate inside of limits. To make things limitless is tough. Though I think what has happened, and we saw that with, they've now just, you know, with this other anniversary special that happens at the end of this run, cemented David Bradley as the first doctor. David Bradley, to be clear, did not play the first doctor. That's William Hartnell.

He's dead. So they got an actor David Bradley who doesn't really. even look that much like William Hartnell, but now he's the first doctor. Okay, fine. It was fun to watch him and Peter Capaldi bounce off each other. It was fun to watch three doctors bounce off each other in the anniversary special when Matt Smith, David Tennant, are there. And it's fun to watch these two doctors bounce off each other. So like, it's like with Loki, meeting a variant of yourself. Like, that's interesting. So I think it's just irresistible to them to like have doctors talk to each other.

I don't know. Are you worried? How do you feel? I agree that it seems irresistible. And I get why it would be. I think I liked the fugitive doctor. I thought this was an interesting figure in the story. I wish that there had been less time, like, spent with Ruth as a mystery and that we had just been able to like understand what we were seeing to appreciate it more before it kind of receded into the distance. And then obviously the fugitive doctor comes back a few times. I don't mind more doctors, new doctors. This might be like the luxury of like a recent convert, right? And like I just don't have like the long term history with the lore to have like had my feelings about a calcify over time, which to be clear, it has happened with plenty of other stories. So I say that like genuinely a pretty judgment free way. If that's how people feel about it.

Like there are plenty of things I feel that way about. I think that the okay Loki ask a variant meeting a version of yourself upshot is capped definitionally if neither of the characters remember the other person or understand who they are like that that's just thwarting the prospect of like what that pursuit is really meant to unlock for us I think that the timeless child aspect of more broadly, like what it means to say the history of the doctor is not what we thought it was. As I understand it, as a person who finished these episodes, literally yesterday. Be clear, quite literally, yesterday.

As I understand that this is like an incredibly unpopular decision, the timeless child, right? So, which I'm not surprised by. Here's what I will say about it. I think that there is something interesting and compelling. to me about saying just more broad, at the broadest level, there's a lot left to learn. Like, we don't know everything

about the character in the world, and that's exciting, that there's more for us and for the doctor to discover. I like that. I think altering the relationship to Gala fray is, again, I can see why people

would be, like, wounded and aggrieved by that. I think the part of it where the doctor who has dedicated an entire existence, at least the conscious active memory stretch of an entire existence, working to help other people, learning that like the root and origin of your connection to this place, a place that despite all of the cat and songs we just talked about, you spent a large portion of your life lamenting your hand in destroying

until we get to a well actually phase. And you learn that you were basically stolen and co-opted and used as a template to create the time lords, that they took this thing that was special about you and used it to make them great, this empire that you have such a complex relationship with. I think that's pretty interesting. I can see why people wouldn't like it. The question of what we will learn about where the doctor came from originally, like, that gives me, like, while. I'm excited about new things to discover a little bit of anxiety about like how many new directions might we go in. Is it what tech team says you're like, okay, this other universe, universe too, is that true? You're at the bottom of this wormhole where you deposited there.

By whom? Are there more people like you out there? Yeah, it's possible. Emotionally, forgetting like the lore and the mythology. emotionally, the doctor having a new sense of like, where did I come from? Who am I? And like, are there other people out there who are a part of my life who I don't even know? That's interesting to me.

I'm concerned about the knots we might be tying ourselves into on the canon front. But like seeking some sort of new emotional epiphany or insight is like intriguing. It is. I can't disagree with you the opportunity there. There is potential there. It's just tough for me because, like, again, I don't mean to be too precious with canon, but, like, I just think it's interesting that the doctor is a time lord who hates time lords. And, like, and calls them out for this shit that the doctor, him herself, often does as well.

You know? And so that inherent, like, contradiction is something I love about the doctor. It's so much less interesting to be like an aggrieved stolen species who was, you know, medically mined for Metaclorians or whatever. It just makes it makes the doctor like MediClorian Jesus of Galifrey and I just, I'm not a huge fan. All right. Season 13, the whole thing, Dr. Hu, colon, flux. The final season is a six episode quote event.

And I kind of get why they did it. Torture did something similar with its third season. It's titled Children of Earth, and it absolutely fucking slaps. It rules. Seriously, watch it holds up. It's really, really good. This is, I would say, dramatically less successful. There are highlights to it.

There are things that I really, really liked. I already said, Dr. Jericho, Jacob Bander and Bell is like star-cross lovers trying to find each other across the disintegrating galaxy. Very charmed. I loved it. Guess what I loved it. Very, very Desmond and Penny. just loved it, loved it so much.

I'm still processing genuinely how I feel with the Ravitur Sibling Swarm and Azure. Mostly, it's not performance. Sam Spurl, by the way, absolutely terrifying on this new season of Fargo as well. Do you want someone to be terrifying? Sam Spurroll is really good at that. But why would you make them look like disco geodes?

Like, I don't understand the character designs at all. These are potentially very cool characters, genuinely. I was so distracted by the glitter and the like crystal sticking out of their heads and stuff like that. Carvanista, the Lupari, the dog alien, kind of had me until the howling and then I got a little lost in that. The counterpoint. The howling is the single best one.

This is the best part. On the Ron, I was crying outside. The Grand Serpent and Unit. And I'm just like, what are we even doing here? So it's like, it's an unfortunate. thing where there's like, I would say, three too many story strands, you know, maybe more, maybe less. And so every time we return to one that I'm not viving with, I'm like, ugh, more Grand

Serpent shit, I guess. I don't know why I need this at all. Yeah, just to swing and a miss. Fowl. What a no? Just like not my favorite. But like gave, has some real highlights. Again, Jacob Anderson.

Can you know wrong. I strongly agree with all of that analysis. I think division and everything with division is maybe most emblematic, even more than the ravagers or the flux, of like there's something there that's interesting, but it is just completely obliterated by all of the mythology that we're like rapid time, real time trying to track. And like, I will say, I don't think it's, I don't think it's an out of bounds arrogant comment to say that we're fairly attentive viewers who are usually pretty smart.

I was like, this is so actively confusing that I am like, I almost feel like I have to be like on my first watch in real time, like, pausing every few minutes to make sure I'm not having like an encoding failure. And I can retain this level of information. I just don't think that's a successful way to structure a season. Again, I like the ambition of a connected story. I think too often there have been moments in Who where I'm like, oh, man, every episode of something new I wanted to spend more time with those characters or like inside of that idea. So I like that conceptually.

But the ravagers and the flocks and the... Weeping Angels... Tectean. The Weeping Angels were... That was an interesting one. I was like, oh, like, he's playing with Moffat's toys. Like, I'm kind of into this action. But then there's all this other stuff around it.

and a planet called time. And then everyone's like, there's no such thing as a planet called time. And I'm like, okay, but we don't really get to like focus on what that means or why. And then it's like the physical manifestation of time. And it's okay, looks like you, but in a different color jacket.

Like, okay. Just too much going on. Way too much going on at the end here. And I was like entertained. I really wanted to. keep going to the next episode to like learn more. To see more of Dan, handsome Dan. To see more of handsome Dan.

To see more of handsome Dan. Do you feel species bonded with handsome Dan? No questions from Dan, really. He's just like, sure. This tracks. Only when he is a literal gaping hole in the visor of his space suit is he like, I'm going to take a moment to reflect. I'm going to go home to die.

On the choices that I've made. This is really just a lot going on here. Last one least. 13th last stand, the power of the doctor. This is a centenary special. So I guess the 100th episode of Doctor Who? I believe. Oh, okay, tell me.

It is the BBC. Oh. Thank you. I was like, it can't have, thank you. I was genuinely trying to Google it because I was like, it can't only have been 100 episodes. That doesn't make any sense to me. Thank you. As you know, I have watched 175 in this calendar year.

Oh, yeah. Duh. Okay, yeah. I was like, we just had, what is this Centenary anniversary? Got it. The BBC's Centenary special. I was checked out of, as you might know, I was checked out of Dr. Who at this point. I was watching a lot of this for the first time.

I watched Jody's first season. And then essentially I checked out until I was like, what? David Tenon's back? Okay. So a lot of this I was watching for the first time. Yeah. So the BBC Centenary special, we get a tour of previous doctors. We get Colin Baker, Peter Davison, Paul McGahn, Sylvester McCoy.

I love Palmigan. I would love to see the 8th Doctor again. I'm a big Palmigan fan. How did you feel seeing Radigas the Brown, Sylvester McCoy here as the seventh doctor? Yeah, that was great. I liked all of this. I enjoyed this send-off. I thought it was nice to be perched on that edge.

and see the different faces. I found the, I know we'll hit the actual, like, parting words from 13 later, but I found the, it's not you, it's me to borrow your framing of it earlier, a conversation between the doctor and Yaz's pretty heart wrenching from the doctor's perspective, and, like, that Dan has a line, like, nobody gets by, We've had some bruises a little earlier in the run. You know, it's life, isn't it?

He says, isn't it? He doesn't say, isn't it? Honestly, he says, like, I was life, isn't it? Sorry, that was a little more Scottish than Scouts. Did you make ample use of your close captioning for Handsome Dan, the Scouser? I had the subtitles on the whole entire Hoot Run for everything, because I'm like, it's just with new words, new creatures, new planets. I want to be able to, like, register it in more than one way.

But I thought that, again, like the centrality of the sorrow from the doctor perched upon the TARDIS looking out down at Earth at the end there, I thought that sentiment, nobody else got to be us and nobody else got to live our days was like incredible. That was one of my favorite lines of the entire run. I just thought that was magical. And like what a perfect. way to not only put a bow on their shared experience, but to capture that, like, thing, that amorphous thing that we're chasing, that reason that we love watching these bonds forge and, like, the idea of a companion in the first place and, like, how that can, it's not in any way, like, exclusionary or, like, superior. It's, like, the specific experience that you share with another person is yours, right? And, like, what a wonderful thing that is. So I, I, I, I really loved, loved that as a parting of the ways moment.

I like this broader celebration of the history. We see the master. Once the master becomes the doctor question mark, he's wearing bits and pieces of iconic. Doctor Who costume. He's got Tom Baker's scarf. Peter Davison's like celery, boot and ear. The second doctor is playing the second doctor's recorder.

There's just like a whole mulage of stuff happening on him. The master, Here's the only amount of depth I can give the master again. Sasha Dewan, like pretty delightful and especially as Rasputin and especially dancing to Bonilla. You love a musical number. And boy, did you get one. I do and I love Boniap, this song. Like, this song is incredible.

I love Rara Rasputin lover of the Russian queen. Like, come on, it's so good. And so anyway, I'm only upset that the Cyberman and the Daleks do. join in on the dance. It was just the master by himself. But there's two things that are happening here. One, there's like some, this idea of like, I need to become the doctor is an interesting. It sort of reminds me of, I was talking about this concept on the crown with Amanda Dobbins, great coverage of the crown from Amanda over on the prestige feed. This idea of Diana as the people's princess, like the princess that people want to like possess have whole.

take a part of. And then we got an email from a listener who listened to our Yellow Jackets coverage, and they're like, oh, it reminds me of like some of the things you talked about in terms of, like, the kind of love or friendship or whatever that's like, like, want to possess, eat, consume, whatever. It's like, become, right? But I will become you. And there's also this jealousy that the master has for the doctor's companions. Can we hear this clip, please, Carlos? What unites us It's stronger Than what divides us

I mean that's very you that isn't it I mean you love a team don't you Letting every Tom Dickin Harriet into your tardis Well you have your fam Now I have mine I mean very sad that he's referring to cybermen

And Daleks when he says that But yeah there's just like There's something there There's something there's something barely traced remnants of something in the air there that gives the master some of that depth that we were looking for in this whole sequence. I thought it hit when

yes he has is his prisoner and pawn, but when he has that one moment where he's like, we can have fun, you know, and you get to glimpse beneath the deep in many layers of psychosis that there is like a part of him. that just, yeah, wants to be chosen. Also, before he changes, shout out him for rocking

Jody Whitaker's costume and the earring, like the whole thing. Looks great. David Ten and I have some notes. Okay. We also, along with the classic doctors, we get classic companions, A. And they're here to basically give us a similar version of the Tanro's Sarah Jane episode school reunion that we talked about in the 10 run. We all agree that school reunion is not a perfect.

episode, not great. Some bad special effects, some dicey things going on. But I think it handled this theme a bit better. I think probably because Elizabeth Sladen is a bit of a better actress than, no offense, these actresses. But they are, I mean, Ace, and Teigen are, like, really cool classic companions, Ace especially. And, like, Ace in her, like, jacket with the baseball bat and, like, all of that, like, you know, and she's like, Beyonce, learned this from me. Like, all this sort of stuff is just like, it's fun, you know, and it's fun to watch these women run around and do this stuff. Before we get to, we got a great email about this, before we get to that, anything you want to say about this idea of bringing back these classic companions.

No, I mean, I agree. I think the Sarah Jane version is more successful, as you know. I really loved getting to see Sarah Jane and Rose and her act, and, like, the doctor have to confront that, like, real limitation. Like, your coping mechanism can be your coping mechanism because it's what you need, but sometimes you have to confront. that you heard other people and, like, leaving them behind and never checking on them or thinking about them again is a pretty fucked up way to make your way through the world. So I think those reminders are, I always like when the doctor gets that check from somebody. Me too.

So my Donna's the best. You never thought about me again. That's just, like, outrageous. Yeah. That's wrong with you. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, we're pretty quickly into, like, Tegan, jumping down a ladder.

shoot to a skiing fine. So, yeah, you know. Yeah. Remember when in school reunion, when Sarah Jane was accusing him of forgetting her or whatever, and then he just goes, my Sarah Jane. Okay. So how much is all of this classic coo companion stuff other than being part of the BBC's celebration of 100 years? I think. much of that is leading into the return of David Ted, which we were just about to talk about.

We have this interesting email from Laura. Laura says, when the hollow doctor appears to each of them, Ace and Teigen, we see their specific insecurities emergent. Teagan is still suffering from abandonment issues. The hollow doctor responds to her, surprised you remember, response to her, surprise you remember, comment by telling her, you think you left and I never thought of you again. I never forget any of you. Ace, on the other hand, is concerned that she never, that she's never been forgiven for the

falling out that led to their separation. The hollow doctor reassures her, we're more than good. We're ace. Thus, these two companions have a chance to resolve their issues and can leave on good terms. I think this opportunity for reconciliation is why the 14th doctor looks like the 10th doctor. Your Capaldi podcast reminded me of hearing the 12th doctor talk about why he chose the face as someone he had encountered before. In the episode, Deep Breath, he says about his new face, it's like, I'm trying to tell myself something. Like, I'm trying to make a point. But what is so important that I can't just tell myself what I'm thinking. After being able to reconcile with A. San Tegan, what could be more important to the doctor than rectifying what the 10th doctor did

to Donna Noble. Is that what the doctor is trying to tell himself by returning to David Tennett's face? I can't wait to find out. What do you think, Mallory? Do you like it? I love it. I love it. It feels very connected to that idea from 11. Like, we're all different people all through our lives, and that's okay. That's good. You got to keep moving. So long. as you remember all the people that you used to be. And like, how can you move forward if you don't look backward and heal the wounds that are still very, very open? So I really like that interpretation.

That feels very plausible to me. What do you think? Yeah, I love it. It's brilliant. It hadn't fully connected for me. And I really love that email. Thank you so much. Speaking of final words, you just quoted 11s, let's do what we always do.

let's hear Jody Whitaker's last words. They're very typically her, very punny, very smiling, very cheeky. This is a beautiful regeneration. We're on a cliff. This is like one of the most beautiful images in all of Doctor Who. It's like they cut the corners on the fucking fish creatures and the penulton episode so that they could bring you this gorgeous CGI extravaganza. Carlos, let's hear it. This is a blossom.

Sad thing. I want to know what happens next. Tag. You're it. Uh, David Turner is back. Uh, he's got a great new outfit. Uh, really mad that he didn't regenerated to Jody's clothing. This is a, this is a time-honored tradition of all the doctors that have come before.

And I don't know what they were afraid of. Someone recently said to me that they thought it was like for security reasons because they kept this so secret that, like, they didn't make a version of the costume that fit him and it would leak out or whatever. So they just put him in this like natty three-piece suit. But like, I mean. He still looks like the doctor. The hair's back. It's the whole thing. I mean, you knew this is coming.

And you knew we were days away from like the official return. You've seen the trailers and all this or stuff. But like, how did it feel for you to have tenant back as the doctor? I mean, it's electric. It's thrilling. The only I agree with the outfit point, though. The only flip side of it is that when the picture starts to come into focus and the regeneration energy like fades and we the first thing we can see in the center of a chest is a tie and as soon as

you see that tie you're like I know who this is it's very exciting I'm thrilled for me that I get to dive right in I'm thrilled for you I can't believe you get more tan and Donna I can't believe I'm fortunate enough to get to share it with you it's like uh you know shout out ud sigma Joe the song is ending but the story never ends that's a lesson that we have learned And here it's more proof. The Oud song. I love both 11 and 12 because Moffat loves a speech. Went out with like really long speeches.

13 is not a speech maker. Yeah, but 13 is not a speech maker at all. And so the fact that she went out with just a few and not like are we be, I don't want to go or like you are fantastic. So was I? Like none of that. Like, you know, it's just like Doctor Whoever I'm about to be

to aggregate. Very cute. The last thing we're going to do on this episode is we're going to give out our usual superlatives but instead of doing it just for Jody

and actually I feel really bad there's no Jody on my list at all. I don't know how your list looked. We're doing series long superlatives. We're going all the way back through. I kind of want to give Jody

a support. Like, best accent. I love Jody's accent so much. Best accent goes to Jody. So there it is. A retroactive superlative her. But let's go into our series long of our Doctor Who rewatch superlatives.

Carlos? All right. Starting with favorite line of all the seasons. Mallory. Immediately, you're going to yell at me. I immediately am smuggling. I also smuggles.

really fast. I've got one for each doctor. Oh, okay. Let me quick. Okay. I love it. Nine. Yeah. The whole world's different because he's alive.

This idea of just one ordinary man, that's the most important thing in creation. The whole world's different because he's alive. That's from Father's Day. Great. Ten. This was the hardest one. And I was a little bit surprised by the one that I picked. The doctor, this is between from the doctor and Renet.

reason tells me you cannot be real. And his response to that, oh, you never want to listen to reason. Perfect. Just captures everything. Have to, of course, in the 10-round shout out Donna as well. Just someone, please. For 11, I'm going with, I'll be a story in your head, but that's okay. We're all stories in the end.

Delightful. Make it a good one. 12. Nothing's sad till it's over. Then everything is. and 13, I mentioned it earlier. Nobody else got to be us. Nobody else got to live our days

from the power of the doctor. Those are my picks. Her favorite lives. What about you? Mine does not come from a doctor, so I think that fits. I talked about this when we talked about this episode,

but I couldn't pick a better one. It's from the moment, as played by Billy Piper, in the anniversary special. And she says, you know the sound the TARDIS makes, that wheezing, I'm going to cry, that wheezing groaning,

that sound brings hope wherever it goes and the warrior doctor says yes yes i think it does the moment says to anyone who hears it doctor anyone however lost even you i just love that so much sound of the tardis the wies of the tardis um best villain missy missy easy easy no smuggles just miss just missy all right uh best best fit of the series This was hard. Yeah. The downright painful.

I changed my answer five times. I came really close to picking the long blazer with the red hoodie with the black shirt with the red shirt. Yeah, you love a layer. I'm just so fond of that. But I have to be true to myself. I love sneakers. And I just think that 10 wearing Chuck Taylor's wearing Congress is a true and genuine masterstroke. and not in the, by the way, is it wrong that I, yes, very subtitles, gulps, master missy, master struck,

just in like a creative way. The best. Love a Chuck Taylor. I'm going to give it. It's hard. I really did have like nine different answers for this. I said five now I said nine. But speaking of nine, it is nine's black leather coat.

Like just, it's very simple, but the black leather coat with the V-neck, I think it's just like a really cool, simple look. And I just think it's great. All right. Best guest star. Almost impossible at the end of the run. I mean, what are we supposed to do? And it's hard to define guest star. Yeah, yes. Like, I was looking back at my picks from the prior runs and, like, I had picked Jack

as a guest. And I was like, he's like a, at some point becomes like a major character. So by the end of the run, that doesn't really feel like eligible. I am going with, oh, I still can't decide what I want to do. You know what? I'm following my heart here. I was going to just say John Hurd is the war doctor because I really do love the energy that he brings. But I, my, that's what my head says. My heart is telling me to pick Harry Lloyd. He's so good. Yeah. Family blood. I loved. I loved that arc. And I thought he was amazing. He's so good. And like the more you think about him, just the head tilt and the gleam and the eye. Those are excellent actual, like, staying true to the prompt. I'm just going to cheat. and put fucking River Song and Jack Harkness

in here. It's an absolute complete sheet, but here we are. Why not? There is a song? Come on. Riversong, Jack Harkness.

River Song being Moffat's creation, Jack Harkness being Davy's creation, very emblematic. I think of those showrunners. I really love their lingering fingerprints all over these seasons of who. All right. Horniest moment.

Good segue. Because perhaps unsurprisingly, I have selected Captain Jack here. And everything about Jack, you know, Jack constantly wanting to sleep with anybody he meets is just like, it's one of the only constants you can hold on to in this crazy world. But in particular, I will highlight Jack's, I think it's fair to say, obsession with orgies. back in season four, we get the Sarah Jane, so there's three of you, Rose, three doctors, Jack,

I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now, exchange. And then in season 12, when he's scooping up the companions and he says, seriously, three of you, I had a dream about this once. And it's like, we know you did, Jack. So that's my pick, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention

that in scanning my notes from the prior seasons, I stumbled across this line in my notes, which I will read to you verbatim. Quote Elton getting blow jobs from moaning Myrtle's slab of concrete Oh yeah Remember that?

Love and monsters One of the worst episodes of Doctor Who But gave us a Wild times Tremendous imagery All right

I have two For Horny's moment Both include 10 One is Well one is more broader In season two episode one New Earth When Cassandra

Possesses both rose and 10. And like she pops roses like, you know, blouse open. So we see like the full Billy Piper effect. And then when she's 10, you know, it's just like, and she's snogging back and forth. It's whole like how she is like underlining how incredibly hot these two people are. And it takes her to like point it out to them or whatever. And then also when in the girl in the fireplace, when 10 says I snogged bottom to pompadour

and basically like hip thrusts up. into the mantelpiece to like make it spin around. It's great. I snug Madame de Pompadour. All right. Cringiest low budget moment. I have two picks here. And one is from the truly low budget early days.

Right. And it will not surprise you to hear that my pick is, as it was previously, the doctor turning into a household. The doctor turning into Dobby in last of the time lords. I still can't believe that happened. It was shocking. Oh my God.

Shocking. My second pick is from the not actually early low budget days. So why does it look like this bucket? Urbanista and Swarmina Zor in the final season. You talked about this already. I can't wrap my mind around it. Swarmine Azore. The thing that they reminded me of most palpably,

I loved everything you said about this already. Do you follow any cake makers on Instagram? No. So there's like... Does it look like a cake? They look same. I couldn't just think of like a unicorn cake. It's less actually about like the crystal spikes and more about like the

Joel ravine. This is like a technique for icing a cake. Then you'll see a lot on Instagram where it's like it looks. looks like you have like caught into the cake at a great depth and you have this like you would hate it crevice that is bejewled and bedazzled with sugary goodness and I was just like I've seen these two heads on a bake-off challenge and like IG Reels and I just can't like really concentrate on anything but that so that's my pick. Why does it?

Why did they look like that? I felt similarly about the so the sea devil episode that comes the penultimate episode. I was watching, I was like, why do they look like this? And I was like, oh, this is clearly like a classic who monster. It used to just be people in suits. And it's true. But I was like, that happens a lot on who when you're watching. You're like, why does this look like this?

And it's like because they're trying to do an old school who thing without changing the design too much. And Carfinaista is like that a bit where it's like this has like an old school vibe. Plus like you're doing Chewbacca. I get it. But it was so distracting. I got to give it to our pals of Slavine though. Like it's, we got a show.

them out that they belong here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Funniest moment. I'm sorry. My list is so weighted 10 and I apologize, but this is just who I am. Funniest moment.

What do you have? This was tough for me to narrow down as well. I also am going 10 here. I'm at a tie. I have to throw two out. It's tied at the top for me. One is 10 and Donna. One is 10 and 11.

My 10 and Donna pick is partners and crime, them mowling at each other for a across the room with 10 outside the window and Donna outside the door is two geniuses at work. It just was remarkable. I loved it. And then, of course, from the 50th anniversary special, compensating for what? Regeneration. It's a lottery. I got it.

This is fantastic. I also, if we want to brought a beyond 10, I will throw out, honestly, shut up and get to the whale from 12 as like historic comedy. That was so funny. What are you going with? I regret that I am once again going to return to the girl in fireplace because I just love forever when 10 waltzes in with the fucking sunglasses on, the tie on his head, singing I could have danced all night from my fair lady. And he goes, have you met the French? My God, they know at a party.

And Rose goes, oh, look with the cat dragged in the oncoming storm. And he says, oh, you sound just like you're a mother. And then, you know, he goes on this rant about inventing the banana daughery and calling all the clock where people thick, thickety thick face from Thicktown Thakania. So is your dad. And like all this sort of stuff. I just like love that whole sequence. I think about it all the time.

Oh, look with the cat dragged in the oncoming storm. All right. Most emotional moment. You're going to give me some rose. I'm back with 10 again. I guess this isn't a shock. Once again, I have a tie. It's Rose and 10.

the initial Will Lyra the separation, but then of course, mostly the Billy Piper's makeup just streaming down her face. Yeah. The Bad Wolf Bay

both times. Yeah. Two universes would collapse. So? Oh, God. I think the thing that kills me most revisiting the Bad Wolf Bay stretch

is what are you going to do? I've got the TARDIS. Same old life. Last of the Time Lords. On your own. And there's just that sad little nod. And it just breaks me. Absolutely devastating. And then my second pick in a tie is Tannen wolf. Mib Wilf. Bad Wolf Faye. Bad Wilf. Tannen Wolf. Tannenwolf. Oh, my God. In the cafe and then in the spaceship, talking about death, talking about loneliness. Wilf begging, tend to let Donna remember, looking down at earth,

talking about old age and death and violence and knowing your own limits. It's just like, extraordinary scenes. Absolutely extraordinary. Speaking of, oh my God, when Will says you're the most wonderful man,

like, just weeping. Okay, but speaking of, good old Donna, it is, Donna's final moments with the doctor when she knows who she is. She says, I was going to be with you forever. He says, I know.

The rest of my life traveling the TARD is the Dr. Donna, I can't go back. Please don't make me go back, doctor, please, please don't make me go back. Because Donna, Donald Noble, I'm so sorry. But we had the best of times. No, the best. Goodbye. No, no, no, please no, no, no, no. Are Donna's final words with her memories.

I have been sitting in that trauma for years and years and years and years and years. And it will all be resolved for me. I believe it, I swear it, starting this Saturday with our new Who specials, Mallory Rubin. What a joy and honor to go on this trip and the TARDIS with you. Thank you for coming with me. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for opening the TARDIS door. I loved it.

We said many times we'll be back. on Monday. I hope people have been watching all of this with us or just some people just listen to the podcast. And if that got you caught up, like watch the new stuff with us. Or maybe you haven't listened to any of us, but you're going to jump in with the new who. Why not?

Do it? You have six hours of podcasts. Listen more than that. To listen to us. Talk about Dr. Ho's. Sorry. It's more than our centenary as well. I'm not great with math. Okay. We'll be back.

Talk more who. Check out what the Mid-Ey boys and button mash and the Mint Edition folks are up to. And what Jess is up to on Splash Nation, everything that's happening with the Ring Reverse. Crew. Prestige TV. The Crown. The Curse with Sean Benissie. The Crown with Manitavins.

Fargo with Rob Mahoney. That's what's going on. The Prestige Feed. Thanks. As always, Carlos Sherboga, for his work on this episode. We'll see you soon. Bye. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel

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